The Sun.
London, England, 1851-04-09 00:00:00

TtlE SUN, LONDON,

Meat of a tax on the-.r property wlich rover ranoucted
e
(tic' more than 21 53. a year, and lied by th e means nen-
ered necessary the unseemly eceee whites :he
Gentleman had selves-ed. He (Sir R. IneeH) should
have resisted that motion if it had assumed she form of
e resolution; and even in its present SligpP he could Not
Rive to it his appreval. The only ground on which such
a Committee could be considered necessary was, that is
would be desirable to put an end to SUMO uncertainty in
the
law upon the subject. But no such uncertaiete at
present existed. The law upon the point, after basing
been brought under the consideration of several inferior
courts, had been finally settled by the highest court of
judicature in the kingdom, which had decided in favour
of the legal existence of church-rates for the repair and
Maintenance of parish churches. At the present moment
church-rates differed from tithes in this respect only, that
they Were fluctuating in amount from the very nature of
their case. He should grieve to think that that question
IvavYl anY way to be unsettled by the inquiries of a
Parliamentary Committee. He could not understand why
there should be such a Committee, towards which should
gravitate all the complaints and ell the plans of all Dis-
t;eters in the kingdom for the removal of a charge
Leh Was a positive obligation on them, not as Dis-
lenters, but as owners of property. He certainly thought
would have been 'wiser not to have raised the question.
et, at the same time, as the motion was no longer a re-
solution pledging the House to a particular course of
ft`en, he should not meet it by a direct negative. He
aruestly hoped, however, that her Majesta's Govern-
tent, while they assented to the proposal, would take
tare that the Committee should be a fair and impartial
one, and should not conAst of Members pre-determined
!II arriving at a conclusion unfavourable to the Church
six% the subject.
„24r- BRIGHT said he did not think the Hon. Baronet
""13 had just addressed the House had made out a good
Case with regard to the Bishopsgate-street aggression.
th 6 Hon- Baronet was aware that the church for which
o.e:se benches and seats had been seized was placed in
Ce immediate neighbourhood of the Friends' meeting-
ieese which had been so despoiled. It might be true
Oat those
effects had . not been seized immediately
la. the meeting-house, but they had been
„v,l,zed in the adjoining premises, and that was
not hold that there was anythingoc sacred in seats or
te:riiis, and in their view there was no such crime as
ge in connexion with places of worship. He would
the Hon. Baronet himself whether he t hought, that
hie
country and at the present day, such a state of
mg,
as that of which he himself bad admitted the
estlstence, ought any longer to be tolerated—that on one
shoe, of a street they should have a large place of wor-
m connexion with the Church of England, and that
etel the other side of the street they should have a place
;:( worship erected by the voluntary contributions of a
ewhose members, while they professed essentially the
mimenet
th religious doctrines, were compelled to contribute
:'"'" Maintenance of the church of their more favoured
tel"bours? He said that such a system was inconsis-
toat with the general laws of a country which professed
an have long ago done away with persecution, penalties,
add disabilities, on the ground of religious differences. He
witted that there was the sanction of an Act of Parlia-
ent for such proceedings as those which had taken place
the ease of the Friends' meeting-house inthe Bishops-
,restreet district; but he complained that such an
et" Parliament should exist, and he thought that it
fliought at once to be repealed. He believed that the in-
ction of church-rates was unjust to Dissenters, and that
11„Was a disadvantage to the Church itself. The Hon.
tr,'4°,llet had said that that question had of late been
CarY settled. It was true that a majority of the judges
garish,
decided that any minority, however small, in a
ettiv!sli, could strike a church-rate; but some of the most
ineat of the judges had arrived at a contrary conclu-
sion,That church-rate law, as it stood at present, was
Vero,,e like what the Duke of Wellington had said the
a r day of martial law—it was no law at all. It gave
tortight of taxation to a minority in a parish such as was
anenjoyed by a minority of that House. He believed
at all the best Churchmen regretted the contentions
church-rates
scandalous scenes to which the exaction of those
receive
gave rise. That system might
awh the approval of the political Churchmen
lso used the Church for party purposes; but
of
sincere, high-minded, and charitable members
thethe Church must deeply regret the consequences of
.. Present law upon the subject. And let it be remem-
!ered that the whole amount of those tchurch-rates was
!0t more than between 200,0001. and 250,000/. a year.
~4
Manchester no church-rates have been collected dur-
ing the last fifteen years; the parish church there was
naintained by the voluntary contributions of the mem-
:era of the Established Church, and by that system
much contention, violence, and animosity had fortunately
been avoided. In Rochdale the same system was pur-
,llllo, and with the same happy result. He• believed that
church-rate system had long been undermining the
uhurch of England in the affections of the people. The
raesent was a very peculiar time for the Church of Eng-
u& They had heard speeches from Hon. Gentlemen
uPposite, which showed that among the members
• of the Church very different feelings prevailed with re-
gard to many of those questions from those which had
prevailed in former times. He should advise the Hon.
zaronet (Sir R. H. Inglis) to try to " set his house in
Order."—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) If there was to be
a stress of weather for the Church, it would be better
that it should be prepared to meet it, than that it should
.have all that damaging lumber en board. He hoped the
Proposed Committee would sift that question, and when
they should have presented their report the Noble Lord
Would not allow that report to be laid idly on the shelf
%mil he should again come into office. He believed that
no Minister could adopt a wiser measure than one which
Would put an end altogether to those church-rates, and
' remove a system which was an injustice to Dissenters
and an injury to the Church of England.—(Hear.)
Mr. A. B. HOPE said he did not share in the appre•
'University of Oxford (Sir IL H. Inglis) had expressed
• °f the
fthe consequences of the proposed inquiry. It should
b remembered that the system of church-rates had
been imposed at a very different period irom the present.
T
had been imposed at a time when the people of this
country had all professed but one religion, and when the
?stem was not liable to the same objection which could
at Present be urged against it. He thought it advisable
net when other rights were inquired into, the question
`4 church-rates should not be considered as the immu-
table foundation of the faith of the people of England.
..-(Elear, hear.) But, as a Churchman, he should say
rat he did not think a Committee of that House would
,7 likeny ly to be the tribunal
to best adapted to investigate
queation which related the ecclesiastical affairs of
Tember. of all religious denominations, because, as all
eeuonsinations were represented in that House, it was
still,
unfit to legislate for any one of them in particular.
ta, however, on the broad ground that church-rates
should not be considered immutable, he should not ob-
tct to that motion. The proposal, however, of the Hon.
tlernan the Member for Manchester, like the pro-
pnesil al of the Solicitor-General last year, was open to the
great obj
!t ection that it would attach a pecuniary ad-
si;itage to religious indifferentism, by exempting from
the6contributions for the maintenance of churches all
reuse who did not profess to 'belong to any particular
of 'dg as
o denomination. He was aware of the difficulty
eatin judiciously with that question. But he had
heardstates of a scheme which existed in one or two of the
00 tr of America, and which bad some broad advantage
d tide face of it, although he could not undertake to
ecea
couch whether or not it would be found applicable to this
strhY• Under that scheme a " religion rate" was
eiCeiat then a schedule was sent round to each ratepayer
de° was required to enter himself under some religious
eo; en:dilation or another• and after that, a sum was
g'led, which was handed over, to the hierarchy or the
hsyvvning body of each sect. After all, the members of
• to Church of England, though every day most desirous
to
Src's(' fair play to their fellow-citizens not belonging
tilhhutletocr°ltinsunion claimed that liberty of conscience
be accorded' to themselves, which he feared, from
of legislation which bad prevailed of late, they
Were not very likely to obtain.
the v' HEYWORTH said the argument used against
justreraoval of church-rates might be urged with equal
might
against the window-tax or any other impost, for it
tag gat be argued that a man had bought his house know-
hat it was subject to the window duties.
theittr- LENNARD thought some legislation requisite on
e_ua subject, for there was nothing which caused more
ertburning in the community. The law had not been
Quito fairly stated, for the decisions had only gone to this
:gent, that if the vestry met and refused to make a
theurch-rate, the churchwardens
,might make one for
em, inasmuch as they were supposed to have abdicated
duties. But if, instead of
utterly refusing to make
e -
rate, they made one of 6d instead of 9s such a rate
Wtiloeuld be perfectly good, though the result might be that
church would get a little out of repair. He quite agreed
With the Hon. Member for Manchester in thinking that
the
enforcement of these rates was prejudicial to the
Church itself, and he believed that the Church was not
rendered more wealthy by it. Indeed, if the rate were
voluntary many Dissenters would contribute.
that Edinburgh and
litln COWAN expressed a hop©
ontrose would he included in the investigation.
I P. MAULE could not agree with the Honourable
7.-(ember in thinking that the state of Scotland should be
`aelferred to the same Committee. Inquiries had been
already made, and Government had endeavoured to ne-
gotiate between the parties. These negotiations had
to terminated successfully; but hopes were still enter-
ned that they would be brought to a favourable issue.
ST. ALB AN'S ELECTION.
lioThe Sergeant-at-Arms appeared at the bar, and an-
Writ
ofd to the House that he had made a return to the
t of habeas corpus which had been served upon him
the case of William LYnes-
LODGING-HOUSES FOR THE WORKING-
LordCLASSES.
duce ASHLEY, in rising to move for leave to
_intro-
ho a Bill to encourage the construction of lodging-
' 147 the working classes, • observed that whatever
heees have.been the case 20 years ago, it was not now
the nary to make a lengthened statement in support of
40 Motion, Still he was anxious briefly to set before the
othUse the results of his own experience and that of
years 4011 the subject. He had -studied it for several
geve:iand thought measures might be devised to remove
1100 I`,:' many of the evils which oppressed a large por-
the S2i the labouring community. Ho would not detain
the Souse by any lengthened statement. He would divide
10i Jeets of the Bill into two classes—the stationary and
Sgratory o
old je .P or- With respect to the stationary class, he
Zt. oeu his hand a return in reference to the parish of
Quirt' „vege, Hanover-square, and the result of the in-
-6f the! as that there were in that parish 1,465 families
014, sabouring classes who occupied 2,174 rooms. Of
few, lansilies 999 had but one room, in which a whole
17 12 resided; 408 had 2 rooms, 94 had 3 rooms,
roots 4 rooms, 8 had 5 rooms, 4 had 6 rooms, 1 had 7
taus: and 1 had 8 rooms. He referred to this parish be-
coudiolt was a favourable instance; and it this was the
-Leadoinll of the families in one of the best parishes in
DON ' what must be the condition of those in the over-
%l and
more wetly g 64,1195 in the eastern districts

of London, such es Whits chapel end Shoreditele? This
retern eesid noteine of the condition rater est Teeny of
the residences of the workintt people, in which there was
not one family in a room, hut two, three, foie-, etel, spa
he himself hal seen, fere families in a single room, four
occupying e corner each, aid oao in the middle. Paysi-
nothie could be worse; but what was the moral
effect? In these 'leases, or rattier single rooms, many
grown males and females, of cliff-rent Families, and of
the same families, were crowded t igerher, and all de-
cency and any kind of education were utterly impos-
sible; for even supposing that that the desire existed
to impart education, it would be absolutely nugatory
on account of the number of vicious examples which the
children would have constantly before their eyes.
What wonder, then, that in these receptacles nine-
tenths of the great crimes, the burglaries and murders,
and all those scenes of violence which desolated society,
should be first conceived and hatched? Let any one
picture to himself the physical state of so many persons,
9, 10, or even 20 or 25 living together in one room.
Bear this also in mind, that there was no one principle
which produced so evil an effect upon the sanitary con-
dition of the population as-overcrowding within a limited
-space. He laid stress on the sanitary condition of the
people, because every person who had the least ex-
perience of the matter must see its intimate connexion
with their moral state. He held in his hand a report
from the London Fever Hospital in 1845, which gave a
very fair sample of what he had stated. In this a room
was described, 33 feet 9 inches long and 20 feet wide, in
which 50, and sometimes 90 or 100, people were crowded
together, with no more room for respiration than was al-
lowed in the hospital for three patients.—(Hear, hear.).
Observe the consequence. Considerably more than one-
fifth part of the number of cases admitted into the fever
hospital in that year were received from that room alone.
—(Hear, hear.) They had abundant proofs of the
effects of over-crowding in the investigations instituted
by the Board of Health. Such was the condition of
what might be called the stationary population? But
what was the state of the migratory population? The
report of one of the commissioners stated the case of one
of the receptacles for this class, in which there were
eight rooms, all let separately. In one of these, which
was 18 feet by 10, beds were arranged on each side, com-
posed of straw, shavings, and rags, and in this room slept
27 grown males and females, 31 children, and two or
three dogs. In another room there were 32 human
beings, all breathing the same pestilential air; the beds
being so close together that there was no room to pass
between them. This house was never cleaned or venti-
lated, and literally swarmed with vermin. This, no
doubt, was one of the worst instances. He hoped the
House would forgive him for entering into these details,
but it was a case which could not only be proved lay.ar-
guments, but by facts.—(Hear, hear.) This state of
things was not confined to London, but pervaded many
parts of the kingdom, particularly the great towns and
populous districts. One of the inspectors of the Board
of Health quoted a letter from a clergyman who described
Fulham, Maidstone, and Dorsi. as being in a state of
great demoralization; Birmingham, Manchester, and
Leeds were in a similar state. Of Birmingham he could
speak from his own personal knowledge. But mark the
effect on the labouring man, who might be earning, per-
haps, 155., 205., or even 255. a week. It was
necessary that he should lodge somewhere near his
work, and he was driven to some one of these re-
ceptacles. What was the consequence? He had known
hundreds and hundreds of instances in which a man
came up in the prime of life, capable of earning not only
a livelihood, but something beyond, and soon came on
the parish and sank into his grave, leaving his wife and
children permanently chargeable. From Leeds he had
accounts stating one instance in which no less than eight
persons were found sleeping in one bed, and another in
which thirty-one persons occupied three beds. At Brad-
ford twenty persons were found occupying one room,
some in beds, and some on the floor, and it appeared that
out of upwards of 60,000 inhabitants, 15,000 were lodged
in this way. He would mention one other instance in
London to show the necessity of taking some steps.
When they opened the great thoroughfare from Oxford-
street to Holbora it swept away a vast number of small
houses and wretched dwellings; but while they were
thus increasing the beauty of the town, they were ex-
aggerating the misery endured by a large part of the
population. There was a street in the Bloomsbury dis-
trict called Church-lane, a wretched neighbourhood, and
the abode of fever. In a room in one of the houses in
this street a family was living, consisting of eight
males above twenty,five females above twenty, four males
under twenty, and five females under twenty. On inquiry,
this overcrowding was found to be caused by the clear-
ance made on the formation of New Oxford-street. He
called their attention to this fact, in order to show that
when great improvements were in progress it was a
matter of grave consideration whether some precautions
were not necessary to prevent the overcrowding of the
poorer classes and the engendering of typhus. The
number of places examined and reported on by the in-
spectors was 161, with an aggregate population of
1,912,599, and he might venture to say that hardly a
single instance could be found in which the dwelling-
houses of the working people approximated to decency.
His intention was to make the Bill merely permissive.
The Bill was, to a great extent, a transcript of the Baths
and Washhouses Act, which, if it had not affected all
the good that was expected, had worked extremely well—
it was coming slowly into operation, and he thought he
might say that when it was more generally adopted it
would confer upon the country a benefit it was impos-
sible to estimate. It was first provided that the Act
might be adopted in towns and boroughs; next that the
council might adopt it; third, that the churchwarden,
on the requisition of ten ratepayers, might convene a
vestry to determine whether the Act should be adopted,
two-thirds of the vestry being in favour of it, and
then the overseers would be authorised to levy
such a rate as would be required to carry it out. The
vestries of two or more parishes might combine for the
purpose of erecting lodging-houses, and by-laws were to
be made, subject to the revision of the Secretary of State,
and no person receiving parish relief should be allowed
to be a tenant. Having had some experience of these
lodging-houses, he could state some of the good effects
that had resulted from their establishment. Nothing
could be more remarkable than the cheerfulness with which
the rent demanded was paid, the regularity and correct-
ness with which it was collected, and the system of al-
lowing no arrears. Then, again, look at the freedom
from disease, particularly all contagious and epidemic
disease, in these lodging-houses. That was a matter of
great importance, because it showed that they met the
evil and placed the working people evidently in a better
sanitary condition. Dr. Duncan, of Liverpool, stated
that even the registration of the existing lodging-
houses in that town had had a most desirable effect.
There had been 150 cases of fever during the preva-
lence of the late epidemic, and since the re-
gistration only ninety cases had occurred, and
the deaths from cholera had been reduced one-
half. In the model building that had been erected in
St. George's, Bloomsbury, for single men, and which is
within a stone's throw of Church-lane, where the cholera
committed such ravages, not one death had occurred,
and only one case of diarrhoea—(Hear, hear)—which had
speedily yielded to medical treatment. It the people
themselves were questioned, and were asked the history
of their past life and present state, it would be found that
the advantage they enjoyed from the model lodging-
houses was, that the wages they earned they kept. They
were induced to remain at home, and it had been the
means of reforming many. He had heard the same ex-
pression frequently repeated—" The wages we earn we
now keep;" they were full of the liveliest expressions of
gratitude for the accommodation, were afraid only that
they might lose these advantages, and were hopeful that
those benefits might be extended over all parts of the
metropolis. Another advantage that had resulted from
the pile of buildings in Stretton-street was, that there
was a large enclosed court in which all the children were
allowed to congregate, by which they were kept from
the contamination of the streets. One of the objections
urged was that these people were charged a rent that
they were unable to bear. Assuming that to be the
case, he was convinced that the working man would be
able to meet that increased rent by the superior health
and the greater energy and diligence he could devote to
his calling. He had seen many instances of that. On a
fair calculation, the working man lost 30 days from, ill-
ness in the course of the year, and estimating that at
only ls. 6d. per day, there was 21. 55., but which was a
great deal more than any increase of rent he now paid.
But he denied that there was any increase of rent ; on
the contrary, there was a positive diminution, with more
than adequate profit to the speculator. Now, in Snowe'a-
rents, Westminster—a most horrible place—the average
rent of each room was 2s. 4id. per week. Single men
were charged ls. 6d. a week for half a bed, and often
several persons sleeping in the same room. The London
Duck labourers paid, it was ascertained, from 2s. to 4s.
per week, the average being 3s. per week. Now, what
was the average of these model lodging-houses? He
would first take St. George's, Bloomsbury. There every
man had a compartment to himself, and for that he paid
4d. per night, and yet there was a clear profit upon the
building of 6i per cent. In the model lodging-houses
they gave every accommodation, a constant supply of
water to each house, and for the same rent exactly
as was paid for one in those wretched hovels. The
rents were from 3s. 6d. to 7s. per week. It was then
said that all these things should be left to private specu-
lation; but that was generally directed to small houses
and of the cheapest description, as being likely to leave
the largest profit. These parties did not like to under-
take building model lodging houses, because they feared
the responsibility of the superintendence and super-
vision that was required. Now, the reduction of the
duty on bricks had greatly facilitated the erection of
these houses.—(Cheers.) The abolition of the duty had
effected a reduction in the cost of erection of 15 per
cent, But when they brought into operation the use of
,
I.culo'sv bricks, which were not generally come into use,
the reduction would be equal to 25 per cent. Then a
great advantage had been derived from the reduction of
the window duty.—(Cheers.) Take the pile of buildings
in Stretton-street. All the rooms being under one roof
the window
annum, addinugtyaws oluealdstam2sosrptetroafnrnomum6ool. t
ht oe 7roe/ per
e.
tef
each room. The window dutyd reduce being removed would
enable them to let thesweohuol houses without that great in-
crease of rent, and they the 7s. rooms to
6d., and the 6s. rooms
snso.t6de.f
an These
eleemosynary ous e , it
should be remembered, were
character, but would afford an adequate return for the
capital invested. The object the association had in
view in setting up these lodging-houses was to afford
models for imitation, and to show that they were likely
to prove fully remunerative as investments for capital.
That res.ilt had been established.—(Cheers.) The sum
that had been expended on these buildings was 20,7501.,
and 2,2501. in improving, adapting, and fitting up three
ranges of old dwelling-houses.wasT6haptermeaednet.—antheennteirwe
expenditure of 23,000 L, and the return, including. all
the expenses of management,
buildings brought 5i per cent., and the old ones about
12 per cent. One house they had kept as a curiosity
and an illustration of the exorbitant and intolerable
profit that was levied on these low lodging-houses.

Some of them realised not less than 30 per cent., and 11
most of them he was convinced reaped a very consider-
able I ;
profit. In many places met' the knocking down of
a hotue at the end of a cul de sac wee the means of
letting in light and ventilation to e whole district. The
House would be encouraling associetions for that pur-
pose if it only reduced the cost of these charters, and
gave the members limited liabilities. It should be
remembered thst to carry out these sanitary results
they must destroy as much as they built up. They
would be doing little if they loft those abominable nests
of filth and disease—they must be swept away before
the new lodging-houses could do all the good they
were calculated to effect. He was extremely anxious
that the House should take the matter up, becauss
the question had excited the greatest sympathy
and attention, and the association had received
letters from all parts of the United States, askiug them
to forward plans and estimates. He believed there were
few towns, either on the continent or in America, in
which a similar state of things did not exist; and he
trusted that that country would give an example to sur-
rounding nations, and show that it became a matter of
consideration with the Government. He did not think
that they could hope for any amelioration of the social
or moral condition of the people until their domiciliary
condition was, if he might so term it, Christianised.
(Hear.) Until they put an end to a system which gene-
rated disease, which crippled the energies of the work-
ing classes, and filled their workhouses with widows and
orphans—(Hear, hear)—it would be impossible to im-
prove the condition of the people. He was satisfied
that if this system was more generally acted upon, a
large proportion of the rates would be reduced. Look
at what had occurred in the time of the cholera. In
the model lodging house of St. Pancras there were 500
persons living under uue roof. In a court called Peahen-
court, Bishopsgate-street, there were 150 persons re-
siding. The inspector of the association, Mr. Grainger,
went over that court, and said he was satisfied if the
cholera broke out, it would be sure to commit great ra-
vages in that court. In three days afterwards it did break
out. In the model building at St. Pancras, where there
were 500 persons, there was not a single death, and in
Peahen-court there were seven deaths, and two being
heads of families, twelve orphans were thus thrown upon
the rates.—(Cheers.) In 95 unions he had ascertained
that there were 2,317 widows and orphans created by
the cholera, all of whom became permanently chargeable
upon the poor-rates. In Bradford, Leeds, Lambeth,
West Bromwich, and Wolverhampton, the increase of
the rates from that cause was very considerable. Now,
the cholera had done its work openly, but fever was, in
those low and ill-ventilated lodging-houses, doing its
work slowly but surely. Cholera killed its thousands,
but fever was killing its tens of thousands. His prayer
to the House was for leave to bring in a Bill to remove
some of the impediments to the energies of the working
classes. They had never yet tested properly the capa-
city of the working man, because hitherto he had been
placed in a disadvantageous position for the development
of his energies.' He saw no reason why the working
men of that country should not surpass their bethren of
the United States—their wages were enormous, but their
expenditure, owing to the circumstances of their condi-
tion, was wild and ruinous in the extreme. Mr. Porter,
in a remarkable paper, termed Self-imposed Taxation,
had pointed out the expenditure of the working classes
in three articles alone, all of which might be dispensed
with, or at least much more moderately used—spirits,
beer, and tobacco. The sum of money expended by
the working classes in these three articles was no
less than 57,000,0001. per annum, and he believed that
estimate to be correct. Imagine that sum expended in
clothing, education, and the improvement of their dwel-
lings, and would any one hesitate to say that by such
means the moral, social, and religious condition of the
people would be greatly elevated? and he felt assured
that God would bless the efforts that would be directed
to the advancement of the moral and intellectual well-
being of so large a portion of the human race.—(Loud
cheers.) The Noble Lord concluded by moving for leave
to bring in his Bill.
Mr. SLANEY felt that he should weaken the force of
the Noble Lord's statement by any lengthened remarks;
but having been a visitor of the dwellings of the poor, as
one of the Commissioners of the Board of Health, he
could corroborate the testimony of the Noble Lord. He
had heard a statement made respecting one court in
Wolverhampton, that the party had seen all the residents
in that court twice over transported.—(Hear, hear.) So
much for the moral character of the persons living in
these houses. He sincerely trusted the House would
sanction the passing of the Noble Lord's Bill, as it was
calculated to produce the most beneficial effects upon the
condition of the working classes. One great d ifficulty
arose from the law of partnership, which would require
the interposition of Parliament, and he did not think
they would hesitate to give it their sanction. He would
only observe that the health of the working man was
his only property, and the Government was bound to
give that all the protection in its power.
Mr. HUME thought the statement of the Noble Lord
ought to make them ashamed of themselves for allowing
such a state of things to exist as had been detailed in
the course of his speech. That state of things was caused
mainly by the bad legislation of that country. The
masses were brought up in the greatest ignorance, and
as a matter of course became vicious. The state f the
labouring classes in the United States, where every man
was educated, was a reproach to them. Were we taking
any means to remove this great evil? Improvement in
the physical condition of the people would lead to other
improvements. Was it possible to believe that such
scenes as those described by the Noble Lord could exist
in England? Foreigners would hardly credit the
statement, and yet it was too true. He feared that
Leeds, Manchester, and other great towns would afford
similar scenes. But where was the Government all this

time? He was not to be told that Government could no
interfere; he was quite aware Government did interfere
sometimes, and that when they did interfere it was only
to do injury. There must be a general move to abolish
that system which long misrule had created. All par-
ties, including the leaders of the people, must join to
give education to the masses, for without this it would
be impossible to expect permanent good. He entreated
her Majesty's Government to bestir themselves. He
was aware of the difficulties of the question; but if some
such plan as that recommended last session were acted
upon, he could not doubt that much real good would be
effected. The object of the Noble Lord was good, but
it was superficial. It was necessary to look to the
cause of the evil, and then to lay the axe to the root of
it. He considered the diffusion of education was the
best means of curing the evil.
Sir G. GREY fully agreed with the Noble and
Learned Lord that the system which produced such
overcrowding was most destructive to the people—not
only physically, but morally. As to the proposition for
a measure framed on the model of the Baths and Wash-
houses Act, much good might no doubt be expected by
such means; but this must not be depended on as a suf-
ficient cure for existing evils. Other means and mea-
sures for improving the condition of the people must be
resorted to. A great deal of good had already been
done by the construction of dwellings for the poor, and
he thought if associations of individuals were formed for
constructing such dwellings, more good would be done
than by Government interference. If the principle of
the Baths and Washhouses Act were adopted, he hoped
means would be taken to prevent the scale of rents from
being raised too high in the event of the establishment
being placed in the hands of commissioners. Not only
in towns but in the country, also, this subject was of
great importance. The evils of the country, from the
same causes, were quite as great as those in town, and
he was glad to find the subject had already attracted so
much attention that dwellings were being constructed in
some country districts for the accommodation of the
poor, without reference to the profits of those who con-
structed them. With respect to the education of the
people, he approved of the exertions which were making
to diffuse education; but he again considered that indi-
vidm.l efforts and combinations of individuals must be
looked to as the main means of diffusing education rather
than by the help of Government. He hoped what the
Noble Lord had stated would induce every one in his
own individual sphere to promote the great object that
all had in view.
Mr. STANFORD agreed with the principle laid down
by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that Government was not
the proper power to effect the objects contemplated by
the Noble Lord; but if individuals or associations were
to attempt the task, they would not succeed unless they
were protected by an Act of Parliament. He begged to
express his gratification to the Noble Lord for bringing
the subject forward. He was certain that until the people
were well housed and well clothed it was impossible to
expect any high moral or intellectual standard—it was
impossible to elevate the character of a people if they
were subject to privation and to insufficient ammo-
dation. He again begged to thank the Noble Lord for
bringing this important subject forward.
Mr. W. J. FOX said persons coming to London to
seek employment were compelled to house themselves in
those filthy dens, the cheap lodging-houses. By this
necessity the very minds of persons became debased, and
the advantages of previous education were annihilated.
One of the great sources of the evil was the conversion
of old houses by speculators into :these lodging-houses,
which wus found to be one of the most profitable occu-
pations in the metropolis. So long as this and other
similar evils existed, it would be impossible to grapple
with the evils and the difficulties. The Noble Lord's
proposition, therefore, would not effect entire good—it
would only very gradually do away with the evil. He
considered that the subject matter did:call for the powers
of the Legislature, and it was not unworthy the attention
of the Legislature to see that they who speculated in low-
lodging-houses did not increase and perpetuate an evil of
such magnitude.
Lord C. HAMILTON considered that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had laid down the strict and proper limit for
Government to adopt in this important question. One
of the main difficulties of the case was the expense of
commencing work. In one recent instance of a build-
ing company he knew that it cost them 1,2001. to obtain
a charter. If this expense was lessened he had no doubt
much of the, present mischief would be remedied.
Mr. LABOUCHERE, referring to the expenses of
the charter to a building company, said it was true the
expenses amounted to a great sum, but that was owing
to the peculiar nature of the charter—its great length
—and the legal mistake in its construction. But ordi-
nary charters were not so expensive, though he ad-
mitted those expenses were higher than they ought to
be, and he should readily turn his attention to the best
means of reducing them. He considered that a charter
ought not to be encumbered with a heavy fine. If im-
proper to be granted, that ought to be a consideration for
Government. He again said the expenses of charters
were too high, and ought to be reduced.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
STATE OF IRELAND.
Sir W. BARRON hoped the House would bear with
him while ho attempted to describe the painful position
in which the great majority of the people were placed at
that moment. He would first describe the position of
Ireland in 1845, and compare it with her position at this
!IMAM. }le took the period of 1845, because imme-