The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-24 00:00:00

stated that the separation Would hot have taken place, un-
less there existed a serious and most decided difference of
'opinion. ( Hear.) He (Lord A.) might content himself
with this proof, because, as the hon. and learned gentle-
men had stated, it would have been the conduct of insane
'men to separate from such talents as were pessested by his
(Lord Althorp's) noble and right hot, friends, unless there
had been such a decided difference of principle. (Hear. )
'pis, ho:vever, was not all ;- for the government had de-
ciared what their opinions and feelings were; they had
declared that they considered that the Parliament of this
country did possess the right to appropriate to other than
purely Church purposes, such portions of the revenues of
.the Church in Ireland as might be more than was re-
quired for the benefit and advantage of the Protestant
population of that country. (Hear, hear.) The Govern-
ment had not only declared this, but had also declared,
and had taken means to carry that declaration intdeffect,
that as soon as it was proved and shown, not what was the
degree of revenue possessed by the Church of Ireland, but
what might be more than sufficient for its purposes, that
then it was not only the right but the duty of the Le-
gislature to consider whether there might not be made a
more beneficial appropriation. (Hear.) The Govern-
ment had never stated, nor intended to state, that it was
contemplated to appropriate any part of the church revenues
to the purposes of the Roman Catholic religion. On the
contrary, they thought that such a mode of appropriation,
so far from being advantageous, would be most detrimen-
tal, both as affected the feelings of the Protestant popula-
tion of the empire and the feelings of the Roman Catholics
themselves. ( Hear, hear, from several Irish members.)
Most undoubtedly the Government did think, and he
(Lord Althorp) was prepared to say, looking at the question
as a member himself of the Protestant Church, that it
would be most advantageous to the Protestant religion in
both parts of the empire not to continue in Ireland that
state of thingsilwhich was consequent upon the present
distribution of Church property in Ireland. It was im-
possible for any man, who looked with reasonable feel-
ings upon the present system of distribution, not to
say that so large an appropriation of Church pro-
perty for the ministry to the wants of so comparatively
few, was calculated to diminish instead of increase the
number of Protestants in that part of the realm, because
it was manifest that dissatisfaction among the other sects
was inevitable. (Hear.) With respect to the right of in-
terference, he could not conceive on what grounds hon.
gentlemen who were oppOsed to the Government on this
occasion, but who had conceded the right of Parliament
to deprive one corporation of a portion of its property to
confer it upon another, should urge that the legislature had
no right to apply the church revenues-to other purposes—
he meant moral and religious purposes. He could not see
how that right was denied, when in fact it was remem-
bered that when the church was spoken of, it was not con-
fined to the clerical portion only ; the church was under-
stood to imply not merely the clerical part, but the whole
body of the professors of the Protestant church. ( Hear,
hear.) The property belonging to that body had been
applied to. the payment of the ministers of religion, but if
those ministers could be provided for in a manner suffi-
cient for the wants of the Protestant population of /re-
and, and a surplus remained, he contended that the re-
mainder might with great advantage to the church itself
be applied in another way. With these views he felt ser-
fectly ready to state distinctly his opinions, nor did he
wish in any degree to shrink from that expression. He
hoped that after what he had stated he should not be
thought to be shrinking from the question if he did not
accede to the adoption of the resolution proposed by the
hon. and learned member for Dublin. (Hear, hear.)
From the adoption of this resolution he (Lord Althorp)
could not see any advantage to be gained; it was merely
a repetition of the motion already disposed of which
had been brought forward by his hon. friend the member
for St. Alban's, and for the same reasons that he had
opposed it then, he must now object to its adoption. It
was true that the hon. and learned gentleman had argued
very ably, eloquently, and conclusively, for the right of
the Legislature to interfere in the matter of appropriation,
but the hon. and learned gentleman had failed to advance
any argument in favour of the adoption of his motion at
the present time. The hon. and learned gentleman bad
objected to the Tithe Bill unless the Government gave
some declaration as to the intention with respect to future
appropriation. The issuing of the commission of inquiry
was, he (Lord Althorp) contended, a clear proof of the
intentions of the Government ; for it would have been
most absurd in them to have issued it, if they did not mean
to act upon the report which would follow from the in-
quiry thus set on foot. (Hear, hear.) That step alone
went much further than the mere adoption of the abstract
proposition now under consideration ; it was an actual
step towards the object to which the resolution proposed
by the hon. and learned gentleman would pledge the
house. Under such circumstances its adoption was un-
necessary, and being unnecessary would be most disad-
vantageous. (Hear.) On these grounds, and not differ-
ing from the hon. and learned gentleman opposite as to
the right of Parliament to apply itself to the questi9 of
appropriation, but thinking such a course was necessary
for the future peace of Ireland and for the benefit of
the Protestants of that country, he certainly was not
prepared, and he hoped that the house was not prepared,
to adopt the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman.
(Hear, hear.)
Colonel DAVIES expressed his approbation of the can-
dour which had characterized the statement just delivered
by the noble lord opposite; but he was anxious that the
house should compare that statement with the observations
which had fallen from a noble marquis and another noble
lord at the head of the government in another place. The
noble marquis to whom he alluded had said, in speaking of
a surplus, " that he only contemplated its appropriation to
pious andcharitable purposes connected with the established
church." Again, said the noble and learned lord, that
" supposing there was a surplus, it should first of all, if not
exclusively, be applied to the purposes of moral and reli-
gious education on the principles of the established church."
He had also added, " that the source from which the funds
came naturally indicated the objects to which it should be
applied." Here, then, was a complete variance amongst
the government, and he must ask, would the last declara-
tion of opinion to which he had alluded satisfy the people
of Ireland—would they acquiesce in the continued appli-
cation of the funds to which they all contributed to the
support of an institution from which the majority derived
no benefit ? (Hear, hear.) Every clause of the present
bill secured with an iron grasp the rights of the church,
and' would leave the clergy of Ireland as completely in
the pesscssion of their property as if the appropriation (or
he should rather call it) the misappropriation clause had
passed. The effect, too, of the Church Temporalities
Bill would be to produce the same result; the very first
clause sufficiently indicated its character, and with these
declarations and measures before him, he could not think
the professions of the government afforded any security to
the house. So long ago as 1830 the noble lord opposite
had promised to remove abuses which still remained una-
bated, and yet the legislature and the people of Ireland
were now to be told that they must wait until the
report of the commissioners of inquiry was received,
while at the same time it was sought by this
bill to perpetuate existing evils, by giving to the clergy of
Ireland enormous powers, and without which they would
be unable to collect their tithes. The time was come to
tell noble lords in another place, that if they had any regard
to the clergy, and if they did not wish to see that body re- .
duced to a state of misery and destitution, they must pass
the bill as it was sent to them from this house, for that this
house would not agree to it in any other shape. But if
the house should agree to the bill as at present framed,
securing, as its provisions did, the property of the church,
the Lords would treat with contempt any effort to effect
the objects sought by the people of Ireland. He repeated,
therefore, that now was the time or never, and that the
opportunity ought now to be embraced, for it would never.
occur again. It became the duty of the house to pass'
some resolution to show that it would not be trifled with,
and for these reasons he.should support the motion of the
hon. and learned member for Dublin.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR concurred with the hon. and
gallant member who had just sat down in thinking that
the present was the fitting time for the house to take some
step. He confessed that it appeared to him that the views
held by the noble lord the Prime Minister of England in
another, and the right hon. baronet, the member for
Tamworth, in this house, perfectly coincided, and there-
fore it was due to hon. gentlemen on both sides of the
house that his Majesty's Ministers should speak out on the
present occasion. The right hon. gentleman the Secretary
for Ireland had manifested great reserve throughout the
discussions on the present measure. Although he did not
exactly agree with the noble lord opposite (Lord Morpeth),
who had said nothing applicable to the question, yet if the
proposition of the hon. and learned member for Dublin
had been brought forward as a substantive motion, he
should have been inclined to hive gone with the noble lord
in its support ; but he ( Mr. F. O'Connor) could not for a
moment forget the principles on which he held his seat
in that house, nor could he obliterate from his memory
that the people of Ireland looked for the total and entire
abolition of tithes. Less than this would not give satisfac-
tion to the people of Ireland, and though he entertained
the highest respect for the talents and good feeling of the
hon. and learned member, yet he could not support his
proposition, because he (Mr. O'Connor) would go still
further than the terms expressed in the resolution. He
declared as his opinion, that the commission would com-
mence in blood, progress in perjury, and terminate in de-
lusion. (Hear, hear.) The present measure effected
merely a change in the name of an odious tax, and such
legislation would not be productive of satisfaction to the
people of Ireland, nor would the impost, though its defini-
tion might be altered, be made more palatable to that por-
tion of his Majesty's subjects. He had attended numerous
tithe meetings in Ireland, and lie could state that the
strongest resolutions, urging the injustice of tithes, were
generally proposed and seconded by Protestants. By op-
posing the resolution propounded by the hon. and learned
member for Dublin, he was aware that he stood upon ten-
der grounds—but as he sought not popularity, but merely
regarded principle, he should persist in his course, with a
perfect willingness to retire to some other occupation, or
to seek a constituency more radical than that he repre-
sented, which, he believed, it would be difficult for him to
find. If the right honourable gentlenian opposite (Mr.
Littleton) persisted in the measure as it was at present