The Sun.
London, England, 1802-06-04 00:00:00

'we refused to
,provide 000,0t6t. lot their far;ef)
would they allow 20 miliinns, the supposed pro-
'dud of the new-plan. at ;a given' period, to he ap.
;plied to the extinction
__debt, while they were
:reduced to 'exigencies ? He contended) that for the
sake of o, or ratherabo,oool, we broke our pledged
faith to the Public, 'the immediate corisequance of
which would be, the distrust of the monied men,
and :disadvantageous- terms on- all future Loans.
He said he had never .paid more attention- to any
measure than the present ; and he was fully don.
viticed that it was most unwise in our_present
cumstances ;. it was proclaiming to the world, that
we could not bear an addition of 700,0b01. to our
taxes. But this;present negative alleViation would
never be acknowledged by the Public,' while the
dreary vista of forty-one. years, without any
further relief, would continually present a dreary
prospect to them. The plea of necessity was indeed
a strong one ; but instead of using it, advantages
soere alledged in favour of the new plan. What
these advantages were, he colild not at all perceive.
The CHANCELLOR of the 11E(ATER said,
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ERN Er) had bottomed
his argument on the supposition that lie (the CHAN-
CELLOR of the ExcHaottaa) had been driven to this
measure by imperious necessity ; but he disclaimed
any such motive, and he referred to the state of
Public Credit at the present moment,' to prove the
absence of any such necessity. The Hon. Gentle-
man had asked, what adVantages they were to ex.
pea from futbre Conti-116h far Loatis; if this mea-
sure was carried into effed? lie- looked forward
future 'with the utmost confidence, a confi-
dence founded upon experience : let them only look
at the late asttri, which was the subjea of exulta-
tion to the Country : he had' stated the ,present mea-
'sure to the Contradors at the time of the Contract,
whose Minds might be considered as made up to the
benefits resulting from the Sinking. Fund, as it
stood at present, and therefore adverse to, any al-
teration, particularly when that change was entirely
new to them; yet notwithstanding this, the. terms
of that Loan , were more beneficial than those of
anyLoancontraded under circumstances more ad-,
vantageous, and formed a 'subjed for the satisfac-
tion and exultation of the Country.; he therefore
looked %vitli the utmost, confidence to the future,
founded upon the experience.of the past. 'The Hon.
Geutleman had said, they .had to look forward
through a long dreary vista of forty years. He was
glad that the Hon. Gentleman had founded this ob.,
servation, as he must found it, on the supposition
that 'Stocks would he at par during that period, as
it .must be perceived that, in proportion as the
Stocks fell below par, so in proportion the-Hon.
,Gentleman's arguments must be weaketied. He
would only observe, that the Country would be
immediately relieved froM goo,000l; -or at least
they must have been charged, and must be still, if
this measure was not carried into effect, with
additional sum of 870,0001. In iBoB, six years
'hence, there would be a relief of p 2,0601. more,
whilst in that year, or the, next, there would he a
further relief of 1,500,0001. by paying off the 4
and 5 per Cents. Has this any thing that ought to
appal a mind so resolute as that of the Hon. Gen-
tleman The very idea of comparing the effects of
the two Plans. he revolted at, as this was only to.
ensure the efficacy of the old plan ; but he would
observe, that there would arise from this plait, a
relief of z,500,0001. in the year-180, whilst' from
the old plan the first commencement of rolief at that
period would lie only 120,0001. He had already
said, that he hoped the :sums thus obtained would
not be applied to the relief of the Country : he
hoped that the, state of the Country would be such,
that those sums might be applied to the increase of
the Sinking Fund. He looked forvard to the wi's-
dona and fnrtitude of. Parliament for measures by
which the Sinking Fund w6uld be reinforced so as
to obviate, or at least-to diminish the force of the
argument as to the quantity of unredeemed Debt,
at one period more than another. Let it not he,
supposed 'that the Sinking Fund could not be
strengthened by fresh reinforcements. He asked
this measure of Parliament at a time, when so far
from sinking under burdens, those burdens were
such at the present 'moment as not to create -the
least uneasiness. He had beets compelled to propose
a larger amount of permanent Taxes than had ever
been proposed in any preceding Session of- Parlia-
ment, notwithstanding which, he had been enabled
to propose a measure which relieved him from the
necessity of adding one-tenth tothe public burdens.
He had the greatest confidence in the future re-
sources of the :Country, which he conceived MIS
measure peculiarly calculated to increase. •
Mr. TIERNEY observed, that the s t 2,0001.
which would fall in, in 1808, and the 1,56°,6061.
arising from the redudion of the 4 and 5 per Cents.
would have been equally available under the old
plan ; the only sum which directly arose from time
present plan was the stun of 870,0001. The Ria,,ht
Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE_
QUER) had spoken of increasing the Sinking Fund
hereafter; how this was to he done he did not
know : if the Right Hon. Gentleman conceived that
it might be done by means of the surplus produce of
Taxes, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was
rather too sanguine in his expeaations.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER said, he
was certainly sanguine enough to expett that the'
,Sinking Fund might hereafter be increased by means
of the surplus produce of Taxes.
Mr. THORNTON said, that to depart from the
ancient system, for the purpose of adopting the
present Measure, might perhaps tend to weaken.
public credit, but certainly was in no degree a vio-
lotion of public faith. His objedion to the pre-
sent measure was rather of a political than of a
financial nature. It seemed to him that we were.
only postponing our difficulties, and though- we
were only in a small degree postponing those
difficulties, yet it seemed to him that we were
postponing them to a period within which a War
might probably arrive. His idea was, that, theya
should provide for - those difficulties within the
shortest 'period, in order that no new difficulty
Might arise -in case at War should occur within a
period not very distant. It seemed to him that
the new system was less advantageous than - ihe
old in that very period within which .aWar was most
-likely to arise. If, however, as it appeared, there
was a disposition on the part of the Howe to- re.

in (time the Sinking Ft.l;l, much his ohjedion
was dotleatneay,'arid.hewas eatremely glad to hear
sornething-to thateffeCt from the Right Hon. Gell-
tieman, (the CHANC,ELLOR of the ExcitacasuEaj.—
At the same time, the idea Of ir!Agip;- eery distant
posterity and relieVing outselVes, wcei an idea very-
diff_leor t#i tha t. which had been hither'- tided npon.
He would rather see rapid advanee's made in the
course of a few year hence, thah a pldge given for
futurity., He thought a large-Sinking Fund should
be provided for, in the same,manoer as a Standing
Army and Navy.
11r. BOYD said, that mach of what he meant
to 'noise submitted to the CoMmittee, in reply to
the observations of an Hon. Geotiemail opposite to
him (Mr,, TlER.llfiy),, had been so ably antici-
pated by what had fallen from-the Right Honour-
able Gentleman on the floor (the CHANC EL.I.OR of
the Ex EQUER), that he should not have occasion. to
'trouble. the Committee long on that' part of the sub-
jeet. One of the Hon. Geo' leman's observations re.
fated to.the,effea upon the minds of monied men,
which. the proposed consolidation of the Sinking
Fund was calculated to produce. The recent in-
.stance Which had been stated by the Right' Hon.
Gentleman, namely, the negotiation of the late loan,
had indeed furnished a most striking example of
that effeft. Not only2was the whole of the intend-
ed change in the Sinking Fund fairly disclosed to
the ContraCtors before they concluded, the bargain,
but an unprecedented circumstance in the financial
history of the. Country was introduced into the con_
ditions, namely; the creation of a Deferred. Stock.
NotWithstaoding all these circumstances, the conse-
quence, however, was, that the Loao was taken on
terms the most advaotageous for the Public that
perhaps ever were obtained: Government foresee- ,
ing the release of, certain Funds by the expiration
of'. Annuities. in I (:)8, bargained for part of the
Loan's hearing, interest only from that period,
when-revenues, now otherwise engaged, Would be
set free: • -This new species of Stock was taken at a
price, in fair proportion with that of the other Stock.
4 great: part of what an kion. Gentleinan (Mr.
'Tir R.NEy), had said against the-present measure,
turned upon the distant- period in which much of
the proposed-plan would operate. He had never till
now, heard tirat the Credit of the Country, or the.
Faith of Parliament . was to ,be estimated by
periods Of time : had never, understood, that
there, existed in this Country such a spirit as
led 'to occasion any difference in • point of con-
fidence, where,the Faith of. Parliament was pledg-
ed, whether it was confined to four years or
forty years ; and the, whole 'financial transaaions
of the Country warranted the, assertion. Had not
many large, sums been borrowed on Long Annuities
Of 7o and 4o years ? 'And had they. ever-been under-
estimated beaanse of their long duration ? No, Sir,
the Public Credit of the Country has always fourid,
and always will find its level, whatever the period
of time may be in which that credit may have to Oise.-
rate. There never was any- difference of conse-
quence between money now and money at a distant
period, beyond that which fairly arises from the In.
.1
terestlor the interval. An Han, Gentleman (Mr.
Baaakas) has alluded to something like deception.
having arisen from the terms Consolidated Sinking
Fund." The-floe. Gentleman's own Mind is much
too enlightened to suppose, for a moment; that he
can ever, have been exposed to such deception. If
.there have been minds so superficial and light as to
think that by the mere covsolidation of the two:Sink-
ing Funds, without any additional peczeniag power.r,
any accession of strength was to be added, surely a
mind such-as that of the Hon. Gentleman could not
be one of them. Indeed, it-is hardly to be supposed,
that any man could be the dupe of such deception, or
that two separate sums of tool. could perform,either
more or less than one.soni of 4.001. Not only no such
deception has been praCtised ; but none cettainly.waS
ever intended to be praClised by.thoae who brought
forward the measure. The plan wanted no such
shallow artifice to support it. It stands upon too
solid and broad a basis to require such assistance.—
Much has been said by an Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
TiEftNEY) about the present measure being calcu-
lated to throw -upon 'posterity burthens which the
present age shotild bear. This is not a correct state
of, the case : it does not go to throw upon posterity
burthens which the. present, day does not bear, It
merely puts posterity upon the same footing with
the present day. Not one single shilling will be
borne by posterity, which the 'present day does. not
bear. Instead of burthening t,le present age with
an annual sum of 860,0001. in order that in-8 or so
or 20 years hence posterity may-be relieved of other
burthens, it is the object of this Bill. to lay the-same
burthens equally on both, until the whole debt be
discharged. The question 'which the Committee
has to decide uporn is, whether the Bill now on
the Table,- does- all that it proposes to do ?
Does this Bill really alleviate the present burthens
of the People,' and at. the same time accelerate the
Redemption of the Public. Debt ? cc Having consi-
dered the subjea, (staid Mr. Boa)), with. great at-
tention, and with all imaginable .impartiality, I
can from the bottom -of tny heart, and fullest
approbation' of my judgment, declare that it does."
Mr. BOYD then proceeded to examine the printed
calculations which were in, the hands of Gentlemen.
He seleCted the one which stwes. the 'progress of the
Sinking Funds in the reduttion of the debt, on the
supposition of Stocks being all at par. By this
calculation, which was peCuliarly plain and simple,-
ansi came' inure home to every Gentleman's Om-
prehension than more ahatrose and elaborate eaten_
lations could do, it appeared that the Debt would
be paid off by the Consolidated' Sinking Fund in
x 845 ;. but Gentlemen would find, upon revising the'
.calculations, that there had slipped in an error,
-doubtless altogether by a casual inadvertency, of
tocnoook in the application of the food in 800(stated
6,91e,,55,01, instead of 7,015,5501.) by whichnneans
the peeitid of redemption which is. stated to take
place in 18+5, aught to have been stated as more than
effetied in I 844.: This error of rooooool. being ne-
cessarily repeated in every succeeding Sear amounts
at the end of forty-five years .(whith,is the period
to•which the attention of the Committee is called
oh: this oceasion) to :7,282,720 andotherefore-it•
will be -found, if the application of the Fond be
carried. on- to the end 'of forty-five years, that
ahe• Consolidated -Sinking. Fund would redeem
78.,8620++1, more than the present Sinking Fund,

even v. ith -the one r ce.nt t th • t
.per fl e sums
'ftiodedi Gentlemen may satisfy themselves upon
the accuracy of • this statement, by try iug the pro_
gross of, the Fund echich is improved, upon this
,hypothesis,'et the rote of 3,30,5091. per Cent. Com.
pound Interest, or about 3i. 6s, per eciit. Thus
then,it appear. that there is ;to ;iddition.to
the Sinking Fund .::of -78,862,04+1. which, for a
period of forty-five years, and ac the.sarne rate of
3,30,5091. is equal to an annual siren of ”,•;':ssjo.
Instead,. therefore, of hae,ing riegkded iiieproeide
I per' Cent. on-the 86,365,7601. last funded, it is
evident that there has been !iroiiided a -stun nearly:
equal to '2 per. Cent.-" Gentlemen may indulge
in melancholy - apprehensions ' and.. desponding
piatires ; but in all this,• I, for my part (wille
Mr. 'Born), can discover nothing kit soarces
of sincere and •heart. felt Satiscadiott." But an
Honourable Genileinan (Mr.: Tirotis•Er) sees no-
, thing but a dreary prospect of inci-easing distress in
this Consolidation of the Sinking -Fuths. It may
not be amiss to consider how the Country wool,'
. stand ten years hence, should it then be again visited:,
by the horrors of war. How would the account stand
'then ? Why, Sir, the Sinking Fund which is no~v
5;587,396i. about i-S7th part of the Debi:, would
then (still upon the most unfavourable of all suppo::
sitions to the Sinking Fund, namely all 'at
par) lie augmented to 7;6 8,1751. I.eedi pair of
the Debt which would then be existing; vi
424,019,1731. Thus there would be 64,96e483i.
of our Debts paid Off, with a Sinkipg Fund, which,
in 4.5 years from thence, would, at the same rare of
Interest, redeem the whole Debt, and 27 5,-980,82'e1.'
more: Is this a disheartening •prospe'd ?
this warrant gloomy fOrehodirigsl, and •all- thnF.4
melancholy apprehensions in. which the Honour:::
able Gentleman (Mr. TiE R,Ntr) has 40 lih.erallY.
indUlged ? I know-not; (said Mr. Born) how some
minds maybe constituted; hut, as flit myself, I see
nothing in the measure-before .the. Committee but
matter of great and just satisfadion. It Las been
stated, that Public Credit must have received great
injury by the want of the r per Cent. on the R 6
Millions last. funded: The Hut:. Gentlernali trill
readily acknowledp-,,ei that if that be the case, it
will not- be stating that injury too high,• if it be
supposed (merely by way of illuStration, and flat as
Matter of opinion,' that. the_case is so); thatithe
want of the i per Cent. On the £6 Millions may Oro:-
duce a fall from par to 92 4.13, which is the next
link iri the scale of•ca-lculations this were-to be
1: the case, the conseqUenee would, 'hoWevet, be a
saving of 27 Millions-in the.course of 4.5 years.—
This is mentioned merely to shewi that 'there•
may be-cases, where,a greater Sioking:Fond doh
not. necessarily ‘produce proPortionally greater
pulrchaseofstock. - Mr. I3or D .did not mean to say
t,4at Ministers had it in contemplation to keep down
the price of stock: He thought; on the don.trary,
that every prineiple Of justice andlioimul- required
„that nothing should be done by them to produce
such an elf&I ; at the same time, when Ministers
went to sell annuities, which was precisely what
they did. when w'ent borrow money, this
House :and the Country. certainly did expect that
they were to-make the best possible bargain for the
Country, and omit nothing within the nale ofitrin
honourein order. to obtain their, end. if therefore,
:they had even had it in contemplation to keep down
the price of- Stocks from- rising' too rapidly upon
them when they became buyers as Commissionersof the Sinking Fund, provided no breach of public
faith was committed, nor any dishonourable or im.
proper method lased to produce the effed, they
certainly would be ,justified for doing so by every
principle, and'even the nicest feeling of the most
scrupulous himour. But no such idea is even
supposed to have existed; only if so much' in_
jury has arisen from the ,want of the one per,
cent. as the Honourable Gentleman states, it is at
least agreeable to know that it has likewise its ad.:.
vantages, over and above the convenience of
avoiding a heavy Tax.
• Mr. Born said, there were many other points
into which he might go; but he should•nottreuble
measure
had Committee further than to say, that the
had his. most hearty and decided approbation.—He
had admired it the first moment he heard of
every subsequenteonsideratiOn had only increascd.his
approbation. The hurthens of the Country for 'the
public funded debt amount to 23,307,6331. ;. but of
that sum 5,587,3971. consists•of the Sinking Funkl.
This is a case aitogetherlinexampled, not only Oa the
annals of this Country but of the world.. Not only are
:all the positive indispensable engagements pundtrally
e,
provided for, but the Country voluntatily.chargel; •
itself with one-third more, in order to discharge
the capital of its debt. „
. Mr. N. VANSITTART observed -upon the ad.
vantages-that would be derived from the present
measure. There was -.one-point, -he observed, chat
might be liable to objedien, as to the. large sum
which would
.eventually be placed in the hands of
the Commissioners 'for the Reduction of the Na-
tional Debt;. and thrown upon the market ; 'but if
this produced any-evils it must be left to futUre
Parliaments to apply the remedy ; at' ,present they
must not omit to apply Char remedy which sv'as in
their' hands to an existing,
Mr:".BANKEs, Mr. VANSITTAkT, and Mr. TIER,
NEY, severally explained; atter which the Res,llu.
cioni' were agreed to, 'and tjle House being restarted,
the Report was ordered to be received on-Wednes-
day next.

Mr. LET cH moved the second xeading of the Irish
Election Bill. -

ills. FOSTER wished the Hon. Gentleman would
.postpqne the Motion, as there were several Gentle-
men who wished to deliver their sen►_iments upon
~that and who were not then present.
Mr. LEIGH said the Session wa, Verytir n'aVan-
ced,and he had given notice to every Gentleman, Who
had spoken to him upon the subject, -fiat it was his
intention to Move the second reading of the
. Bijl
this day—he should, therefore, persist in his
tion. . ,

The 'House then divided,
For the second reading
Against it -

Majority - 8
. The Order of the day being read for tziking into
consideration the Report of the Police
Lord WILLI 414 .RUSSELL proposed a Clause,