The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-08 00:00:00

VACCINE BOA

Mr. WARBURTON moved that
be appointed to inquire into the exped,

the Vaccine Bo ird:

Mr. HALFORD (we believe) suggested that economy
might be carried too far. The Board, be was informed,
was very useful, and care ought to be taken before it was
broken up.
The following Committee was then appointed :
Warburton, H. Littleton, E. J. Wallace, R.
Peel, Sir R. Hodges, T. L. Labouchere, H.
Lamb, I-lon. G. Baldwin, Dr. I Romilly, E.
Rice, T. S. Sinclair, G. Ferguson, R.
Swart. W. Oxmantown, Lord Phillips, M.

Strutt, E. Pease, Joseph
Home, Joseph Buller, C.
Marshall, J.

,
Ashley, Lord
Halford, H.
Potter, R.

DISTRIBUTION OF THE ARMY.

Mr. HUME rose to ask the House for some informa-
tion on a subject of considerable importance, in relation to
a question that would come before them in a few days.
He wished to know how the troops were distributed be-
fore voting the estimates. Such a return was laid before
the House last year, and he did not know why there
should now be an objection to his motion. The Hon.
Member moved for an account of the distribution of the
military force in Great Britain and Ireland, and in each of
the Colonies, in the year 1833.
Lord ALTHORP hoped that the House would give
him credit for being always reAdy to give every species of
information required, vs henever it could be done with
propriety. With respect to the motion of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, he wished to remark that a simi-
lar one bad been made in 1819, and agreed to. A simi-
lar motion was also made and agreed to last year ; but
in the interval between these two motions, no such infor-
ma ion was ever asked for, or laid on the table of the
House. He believed, too, that the motion in 1819 was
the first of the kind ever granted. He admitted, there-
fore, that he should feel it his duty to grant the informa-
tion granted at these two periods, if there were no objec-
tions, as he supposed there were not, then, on the score of
the public service. But he appealed to the House whe-
ther it might not be very inconvenient if it should settle
into a custom of laying this information on the table of
the House. There must be maw,- occasions when it must
be very injurious to make the public acquainted with the
exact amount and distribution of the military force of the
empire.—(Hear, hear.) If it were to be habitually laid
on the table, it would be extremely difficult for the Go-
vernment to roluse it, when it might be inconvenient to
grant it. That made him object to granting it this ses-
sion. That, however, was his smallest objection to the
motion. He objected strongly to making this the constant
system of the House. On the present occasion he felt very
strongly that there were many circumstances which ren-
dered it extremely inconvenient to lay such a statement be-
fore the House as was demanded by the motion of the
Hon. Member. He was the less scrupulous, indeed, in
now opposing it, because the information, in consequence
of its having been supplied last year, was not required. On
the two grounds, then, of its being at present inconve-
nient, and of its being wrong to make such a return ha-
bitually, he should oppose the motion.
Colonel DAVIES supported the motion. He could not
understand the objections of his Noble Friend. The coun-
try', it should be remembered, was in a state of profound
peace. Did his Noble Friend apprehend the danger of a
foreign attack or a domestic insurrection ? Certainly, the
apprehension of danger front abroad was a poor reason for
refusing the tnotion, because there was no Foreign Power
interested in knowing it which could not, in spite of all
precautions, ascertain at any time the strength of any gar-
rison. In his opinion the information should be granted,
or they could not be prepared to vote the army estimates.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE said the information required was
in great part before the House. The estimates themselves
stated what force was in Great Britain, what in Ireland,
and what force was in the colonies. But the Hon. Member
for Middlesex wished to know exactly what amount of
force was in each colony. Such a return had only been
cads twice before, and it was curious enough that the re-

lino of 1819 was made in detail by the Adjutant-Genera!,
when he was not required to do so. This deposition o'
the army was left to the discretion of the Crown, and
what portion of it was to be employed at home, or what
portion of it abroad, the Crown had to decide, and not the
House of Commons. Circumstances might arise witl-
which only the Ministers of the Crown were acquainted.
which might make it necessary that the manner in which
the army was disposed of should be concealed. At present,
for example, what various interests were agitating in the
colonies in the East Indies, in the West Indies, and in
almost every colony ; and would it b? prudent to tell the
whole world how many regiments were in each colony?
That would be grossly imprudent. In fact, it was neither
more nor less than exposing to all who had hostile intro.
tions towards this country, the distribution of its force, for
the returns, though nominally made to Parliament alone,
were open to the entire globe.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped the House would insist, as
was its duty, on having the returns. They should not
proceed on guesses, either as to the number or expenses of
the army.

Sir J. HOBHOUSE said that the expense was epeci•
fled in the papers on the table.—(A laugh.)
Mr. O'CONNELL replied that, granting that there
were no returns to show whether the aggregate amount of
expense was a proper one or not, the Noble Lord, i❑
refusing the returns, relied upon his character.
Lord ALTHORP observed, that he resisted the returns
because, if furnished, they would do injury to the public
service, otherwise it was the bounden duty of Ministers to
grant them, but he had not, he believed, relied upon his
character.

Mr. O'CONNELL—But the Noble Lord added, that
he was not in the habit of withholding proper information.
—(Hear, hear, and Ob, oh.) The Hon. Secretary at
War maintained that it was the prerogative of the Crown
to dispose of its armed force as it pleased, but it was equally
the privilege and duty of the House not to vote money fot
the payment of the forces, if any information it deem
necessary Vag withheld from it. The times required that
a rigid inquiry should be instituted into the numoer of
troops, in order, that if there were one drummer or fifer
too many, they should be dismissed. Before a single
shilling was voted, they should have a clear account of the
number and distribution of the troops.
An HON. MEMBER said that the matter ought to be
left in the hands of the Government, and quoted the ex-
pedition to Portugal, under Mr. Canning's Administration,
as justifying his opinion. At that time there was great
doubt whether the force should be drawn from Gibraltar
or other parts of the Mediterranean.
Mr. W. WYNN never knew any Member insist on such
returns, after it had been declared by Ministers, on their
own responsibility, that the returns would be injurious. It
was interfering with the undisputed rights of the executive
power. But the most singular circumstance was, that a
military man, upon being told that they would be incon-
venient to the public service, should ask " why ?" That
was the most extraordinary question he had every beard
from a military man.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BOLLING said a few words, which were inaudible.

Mr. SHEIL thought it hard, that while information of
this nature bad been granted in 1819 and 1832, it should
be now withheld.

Captain DusinAs and Col. TORRENS opposed it.
Mr. HUME begged to remind the Gallant Colonel that
his motion did not press for returns later than the let of
January last. The apprehensions of the Secretary at
War astonished him; it seemed that this country was to
be attacked the very next day. But why had there been
no allusion to this perilous condition in the King's speech ?
—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Flume) thought the country
was in a state of peace, and that the King's speech might
have contained a recommendation to reduce the military
establishonent.—(Hear, hear.) That was what the people
looked for. Still, notwithstanding the warlike appearance
of the House, he did not think it could consent to main-
taining a standing army of 90,000 men.—(Hear, hear.)
It was perfectly useless to talk of repealing taxes, unless
the establishments were reduced. In his opinion the army
might be reduced by ten or fifteen thousand men—(A
laugh)—or at least a great part of that number. His ob-
ject was merely to ascertain the total number of troops
in England, in Ireland, and in Scotland. In Canada there
were 5,000 men, not one of whom was necessary to that
state. When he (Mr. Hume) should hereafter prop•se
reductions of the army, the universal cry would be,
" Where will you reduce them?" How could he tell,
when he was now refused the details of their distribution?
—(Cheers.) In the lonian Islands, for instance, he did not
know whether there were three, four, or five thousand
men, nor whether the troops might not be entirely with-
drawn from them.—(A laugh from Mr. Wm. Brougham.)
Mr. HUME—Perhaps the Hon. Gentleman think-
that the islands belong to this country. In Southwark
they didn't know it. The Hon. Member was then pro-
ceeding to address some observations to the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs, when a Member called out " Question."
Mr. HUME—There will be questions in plenty ; but
it is hard that one cannot ask a reasonable question without
being laughed at.

Lord PALMERSTON said, that returns of the army
had been made which extended through the last fifteen
years. But it was said, Why, then, refuse them for ISM ?
But that was exactly the question in dispute.—(Hear.)
The fact was, that the object of the Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite was to vest the command of the army and navy it,
that House.—(Loud cheers.) This he resisted, as most
dangerous and unconstitutional.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division, when there
appeared—
For the motion
Against it 2Ol
Majority for Ministers

On the motion for reading the order of the day for going
into the Committee on Ways and Means,
Mr. COBBETT rose, but, owing to the noise of filling
the Gallery, was at first inaudible. He commenced by
alluding to the resolution on the subject of taxation
which he was to have brought forward. He had alreaoy
mentioned that there was a mass of taxation amounting
to eight millions annually, of which the nobility, clergy,
and great lindowners, paid little or nothing, but which
fell almost exclusively upon the tradesman, the farmer, the
workman, and the industrious classes generally. He had
proposed to bring forward a resolution, recommending the
House to take this subject into their consideration. It had
since occurred to him, that whilst the unfortunate question
of Irish affairs was before the House, it would be better
for him to defer bringing forward his motion until that
great question was fin illy settled. He mentioned this
lest the House should imagine that he meant to abandon
his motion.

Mr. S. RICE rose, apparently under considerable ex-
citement, and, with peculiar vehemence, said that he
wished the Hon. Member for Oldham had brought for-
ward his motion, or at least, that he had not intimated hi.
intention of abandoning it in such a manner as to pro-
pound an argument, and cause an inference. He dis-
puted the argument, end he denied the inference.—(Hear.)
He would tell the Hon. Gentleman, that all he asked of
the House and of him, was a clear stage and no favour.
He would dispute every inch with the Hon. Gentleman.
He denied that there bad been, on the part of the Parlia-
menc, any disposition to oppress the people. It might
snit the object of the Hon. Gentleman to make anal state-
ments.—(Loud cheers.) But he would meet him—aye,
he would meet him, he was not afraid to cope with him—
(Laughter from the Opposition)—yes, he would rope with
him foot to foot, and shoulder to shoulder, and might God
defend the right. —(Renewed laughter.) The Hon.
Member might take the privilege of Parliament—he
might put anything in print for the purpose of deluding
the people ; but such a system should be exposed—he
would expose it, by himself be would do so.—(Laughter
from the Opposition.) The Hon. Member for Oldham
had made one as-ertion, he would make another—he de
Glared open hostility on the subject; let the discussion
come, and then the public will decide.

Mr. COBBETT ruse amidst loud cries of " Spoke,
spoke." He intimated a desire to expla;n.
The SPEAKER—Mr. Cobbett, in explanation.
Mr. COI3BETT-1 omitted to say—(oh Spoke,
spoke.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman
who intimated so eager a desire fur the discussion, ap-
peared, from his state of preparation, to have an ad-
vantage over those on that side of the House.—(A laugh.)
In sober sadness, however—(Hear)—did the Right Hon.
Gentleman mean to deny that the Hon. Member for
Oldham had abstracted the schedules to the Stamp Art
correctly? If he had done so, why, let him remember that
vulgar arithmetic never fails. It was not denied by the
Noble Lord (Althorp), that he had abstracted them cor-
rectly. The only defence which the Noble Lord set
up was, that many other taxes were in the same situa-
tion. It was, however, of no consequence. He did not
fear, although the Right Hon. Gentleman was so chival-
rous as to dare the Hon. Member for Oldham to the
comhat.—(4 laugh.) Common ►ense would triumph over
Treasury dexterity. There was another part of the Stamp
Act which he would just allude to—the stamp upon alb!.
tration was 20s. If the matter in dispute was worth
50,0001. it was of no consequence—it was no more. But,
oss ing to this, the poor man was prevented from dr
tiding questions, which were to him of importance, in a
cheap way, because the stamp would frequently amount t,
as much or more than the value of the subject in dispute.
Mr. SPRING RICE-,-He bad a question to put to his

aimed Friend.....(Lond cities of U Spoke, epoke,u mid('
which the Right Hon. Gentleman sat down.)
Mr. HUME said that in order to preveut any dispute,
he he* both combatants would choose an early day ler
deciding the question between them. Bat he must say
that his Right Hon. Friend would be a much more clever
man than they had yet given him credit fur on that side
of the House, if he could refute the proposition that thr.
'axes on stamps pressed unequally, and that the principal
burden was thrown lon the poorer classes. They haLi
often heard of the influence which property ought to pe,.
seas in this and that case, of the deference which was duct
to property; but be thought it high time that the House.
should hear something about property bearing its fair
share of the burdens of the country.—(Hear.) He did
not doubt that the Hon. Member fir Oldham would not
shrink from the fight, although he was challenged to suck
iearful contiguity so foot to foot and shoulder to shoulder.
Mr. FRYER complained that the landlords had, on all
occasions, thrown the burdens of the State upon the people.
The people had been oppressed by the landed oligarchy of
the country.
Mr. HOWARD rose, and spoke for some time amidst
continued roars of laughter. The scene which occurred
during the Hon. Member's speech is, indeed, indescribable.
He appeared to urge upon the Ministers the propriety of
repealing the house and window taxes. He then said that
lie hoped, when the Budget was brought forward en the
sth of April, it would be found that Ministers paid some
attention to this point.—(Some observation was made by a
Member in the neighbourhood of the Hon. Gentlern
lie begged pardon; he hoped that when the Budget was
brought forward on the let April—(Great laughter)really, he must complain of the want of courtesy of the
Right Hon. Secretary at War.—(Laughter.)
The Report was then ordered to be received.
On the question that it should be brought up,
Mr. COBBETT rose to supply the omission which he
had made. He had said that the nobility, clergy, and
landowners had for many years thrown the burden of
8,000,000/. of taxes upon the industrious classes of the
community, bearing a small part of it themselves. He
omitted to say, but he would now say it, and he was pre.
pared to prove it, that they had done so premeditatedly,
designedly, and dishones.ly.—(No, no ; and Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. SANDFORD hoped that when the Hon. Men,=
her brought forward his resolution he would not forget to
mention to the other side all the taxes which were borne
exclusively by the landed interest, and which they had im-
posed on themselves.

Mr. COBBETT—I deny it.
The Report was then ordered to be brought up.
Mr. HUME then rose to move the reduction of the du.
ties on sugar. His motion was, that the duty should be
reduced from 245. to I9s. The duty had been increased
as a war tax, but it had not since been reduced. It would
be highly beneficial to the West India planters, as well as
to the people of this country, to reduce the tax. Even an
ad valorem duty would be most advantageous. The lion.
Gentleman then proceeded to recommend the equalization
of the duties on West India and East India sugars. He
was convinced that it would not injure the West Indian
planters, whilst it would enable the inhabitants of our
East Indian possessions to pay for the manufactures of this
country in native produce.

Mr. STEWA/IT would not go at present into the
question of equalizing the East and West India Duties ;
and although he and all who were interested in the West
Ladies must feel obliged to the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex, yet they did not think the present a fitting time fur
refusing the annual duties, his Majesty's Government
being engaged in the consideration of the important sub-
wet of the West Indies, and all things showing the proba-
bility of an approaching settlement of that question.
Mr. HERRIES was happy to hear the probability of
a satisfactory arrangement on this important subject.
Before the House, however, confirmed the vote of the
Committee of Supply, be begged to call their attention to
what appeared to him to he s great constitutional principle,
and that was, that the House should not be required to
vote money until it had been declared to them how tha
money Wl4 to be expended. The Right Hon. Gentleman
here entered into a distinction between those votes of Ex-
chequer Bills which were merely to supply the votes of
the last year, and those votes which were votes of was a
and means for the current year; contending that, although
the.former were justifiable, the latter were not so. In
support of this proposition, he referred to the course pur-
sued in former years, and expressed his regret that the
Noble Lord opposite had not taken an opportunity of mak.
ing, in the first instance, his general statement of expen-
diture and ways and means. Hearing as he (Mr. H.)
every day did, promisee of a repeal of taxes, which he
knew must be disappointed, he felt that the sooner the
public were undeceived on that point the better.
Lord ALTHORP, adverting to what bad fallen from
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, admitted that a decreases
of the duty en sugar would have the effect of increasing
the consumption, but he doubted whether that increase (4
consumption would be such as to secure the tevenue from
material loss. The last reduction of duty was from :27•,.
to 23e., and the revenue lost the whole of it. The
amount of revenue which would be sacrificed by the pet
position of the Hon. Member for Middlesex was
1,800,0001. Of that the greatest part would be utterly
lost to the revenue ; and if he (Lord Althorp) were to
propose a smaller reduction, the whole of that reduction
would be lost to the revenue. As to the proposition of the
Hon. Gentleman that West India Sugar alone should he
consumed in England, but that at the same time the duty
on East India Sugar should be diminished, which of course
would bring it into competition with West India Sugar,
it appeared to him to be entirely inconsistent. But, under
any circumstances, when it was recollected they were about
to enter on the one hand into the discussion of the East
India Charter, and, on the other, into the settlement of
questions deeply affecting the West India interest, it was
surely advisable to abstain at the present moment from
making any extensive change connected with those sub.
jests. He now came to the statements of the Right lion.
Gentleman, who had contended that it was the general
practice and habit of that House not to vote ways and
means until it had granted an equal amount of supply.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had made a distinction be-
tween the supply for the payment of outstanding Exche-
quer bills, and the supply for the expenses of the curreryt
year. But it appeared to him (Lord Althorp) that tliA
objection of the Right Hon. Gentleman to the vete under
consideration, if it were not entirely technical, partook
largely of a technical character. For, it must be remem-
bered, the vote of sugar duties of last night was but the
first step, and the reception of that vote to-night would be
but a second step in the process of imposing those duties.
Those duties could be actually imposed only by Bill, the
whole course of which might be discussed and dispu ed ;
so that, practically, the House had just as much power
over the duties as if they bad not been voted in the Cone-
mittee of Supply, and might stop the progress of the Bill
if they were dissitisfied with the manner in which his
Majesty's Government proposed to apply the duties.
Mr. HUME said the amendment on the resc4ittqa
should be introduced now, or else it could not t,feintro.
duced at all, fur what was agreed to in the Cosam,lasese
could not afterwards be altered in the Huns,.
The amendment was then put and negatived without 46
division, and the resolution was agreed to.
The other order, of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a quarter-past one.

STATE OF CRIME IN ENGLAND.-By
return laid before the House of Commons, on the motion
of Mr. O'Coloir.ht, the state of crime in England and
Wales, in the year 1832, appears to have been as follows: —.
The number of persona committed for trial was 20,829,
of which 3,313 were females. No bills were found, and
no prosecutions took place, in 2,166 of these ca►es ;
2,716 were acquitted, and 14,947 convicted. Of these
2,449 were sentenced to death ; and 54 were actually
executed ; 3,906 were sentenced to different terms of
transportation ; 9,181 to different terms of iuipri.onment,
some with hard labour, fines, or whipping ; and 402 to
whipping and fines. About 12,000 of the crimes proved
were larcenies of different descriptious ; the burglaries
were 118 ; fraudulent offences 280; game law offences
163 ; manslaughter* 66 ; murders 20 ; shooting at,
stabbing, and administering poison, with intent to murder.
52 ; riots and felony 44 ; robbery of the person on the
highway, 223 ; sheepetealing 219 ; receiving stolen goods,
847 ; and breaking thrashing-in ichines, Sec., 17.

COLONEL MAC KINNON'S ORIGIN AND
SettvicEs Or THE COLDSTREAM GUARDS.—" Ti C
subject was not unworthy a masterly pen. L—the history v
a regiment, with which the Colonel himself is so honor ?
ably connected, which has had an individual existences
name in our chronicles, from the days even of the c°
monwealth, and which has always been distingaished
its gallantry—the Coldstream Regiment of Guards. Wk it
renders such a work greatly interesting is, that in tracing
the career of one division of our national furor, the author
is necessarily led through the wide course or our military
undertakings, and to give a general view of deeds of our
armies in the eventful times of our great civil war, in the
renowned campaigns in Flanders, and, fluidly' in our late
most glorious transactions in the peninsular and at Waters.
100. Colonel MAC KINVON has suerftded, by evident
diligence, intelligence, and judgment, in forming a sarrs,
tiYe full of general intereet."—Morning Manuel.