The Sun.
London, England, 1802-12-28 00:00:00

ORDER OF THE DAY.

Pursuant to the Order of the Day, the House
proceeded to take into consideration the Amend-
ments made by the Lords in the Bill for the appoint-
ment of Commissioners to inquire into the Abuses
in the Navy, and the business of Prize-Agency.
The Amendments being read a first time,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL; in taking a view
of the Amendments, stated, his object to be to en-
deavour to spew that they tended to give efrea to
the Bill, such as it had passed that House, without
being any material alteration of it.
The SPEAKER here interposed, observing, that
the present question was, whether the Amendments
should be now read a• second time ? which he was
going to put to the vote, when
Mr. KINN4IRD rose, observing, that the rea-
son, why he again addressed theni upon this subjea
was, to explain why he was of opinion they ought
not to proceed any farther in this Bill. He had not
occasion to trouble-them with repeating his former
observations, .because the case was now almost to-
tally changed; and in, stating this, he was not afraid
of being accused, as Gentlemen had heretofore been,
,of needless curiosity, or faaious motives, in moving
for an Inquiry ; .or if he were, he should, be glad to
share the unpopularity of such reprOaches with
some of the purest and highest charaaers in the
• kingdom. In the constitutional opposition he now
gave, he stood under the shade•of an Authority the
first in Law, and not last either in abilities or in
integrity. It was not the nature only, but the
birth,' parentage, and education of the Bill also,
which he deemed toile objeaionable. He knew not
exally to whom its birth was to be ascribed, but
if report spoke true, it was of noble parentage.
Certain it was, however, that it had been changed
at nurse, and might complain, like the Irishman,
that it was-a loser by the. change. Undoubtedly
something less than reproach ought to be expected
in that House, by those who opposed measures upon
constitutional grounds ; and it was lamentable to
think that constitutional jealousy should fly Isom
its native soil, to seek for shelter in another
cli-
mate, thus deserving the charge which du: *.tcman

Historian made against his Countrymen, at the pe-
riod of their-declension. Respeec for the high Au-
thority he before alluded to, should at least induce
the House to adopt 'some degree. of caution, and
consider well whether in tone and spirit the powers
required for this Commission did not already exist
in-the Navy and Admiralty Boards, with the ad-
ditional advantage of being subjea to responsibility.
To shew that they did exist, he read an extraa from
the Navy Patent, by which, in express terms, the
Commissioners were fully empowered, when neces-
sary,
,to examine witnesses uvon oath. But it was
said, that though the Navy Board could examine, it
had not power to compel an answer ; but he main-
tained, , that there was no case where the power of
inquiry was not by- law competent to its objea,
whenever it was given. If it was meant to wring
the secret from the guilty breast, he would say,
that no Judge but a JEFFERIES would enforce it,
and in these modern days no Parliament would listen
to it. The power residing in the Boards alluded to
had frequently been exercised, an instance of which
occurred in the year IVO, when, in consequence of
the Report of a Commission to inquire into the.
Abuses in the Viaualling Board, one of the Mem-
bers of that House had been expelled. As to the
grounds of the 'measure, he contended, that Noto-
riety could form no foundation for a Commission
such as this. Was then the basis to be sought in
the Report of the Finance Committee ?' He thought
not : for the Committee was sensible of the Abuses
in the Department of the. Navy, and the impossibi-
lity of remedying them at that time, but it had not
said that there was no power for the application of
• a remedy-; it only said, that in the number of the
Commissioners at least, and the persons employed
under them, a reduetion ought totake place in time
of Peace, when the business of the Board would na-
turally be diminished. As to the Noble Lord' at
the head of the Admiralty, the glory .he had ac-
quired could receive but little addition from the
praises of any individual, 'and be hoped. his-brow
would be no less graced by the olive than •it bad'
been by the laurel,' But admitting that he did all
tl:is in the fullest extent, still he would say, that:
the opinion of that illustrious .Nobleman was nci
ground for that House to go upon, and he knew not
from what logic it was to be deduced that the best
Commander of a Fleet was always sure to make the
best Constitutional Legislator. If any inquiry was
necessary, beyond the powers of the two Boards,
he thought it should best be made by a Committee
of that House.

Mr. I: H. BROWNE expiessed his perfect ap-
probation of the principle and objects of the Bill.
He highly complimented the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty, who, lay his exploits in War, and his 'atten-
tion to the interests of his Country in Peace, shewed
himself to be equally brave and conspicuous in both.
Mr. FONBLANQUE said, there was nothing
more remote from the intention of the framers of
the Bill than that of.co:nmitting any trespass on the
Constitution, but he acknowledged that when Par-
liament granted such extensive powers, it should
he careful to impose a restraint and check upon them ;
and with all the esteem and public admiration due to
the great charaaer in question, he must acknow-
ledge he was not stire such a Bill ought to pass.
The, danger was not so much in the powers
themselves as in the abuse of them, Let Gen-
tle Men revert ,to the powers given to the Star
Chamber, and they would find that they went
only to inquiry,
,but, the grievance lay
.in the
Aft not having .spe.:ified a, sufficient check, which
enabled them to stretch their authority to Mon-
strous fines. and enormous penalties. The 'clause
in 'the present :Bill did indeed, in spirit, guard
against persons criminating themselves ; but in a
legal point of view, the Commissioners appointed
were unlettered men, who may accidentally ask
questions which might be inadvertently answered,
and thus bring a witness to criminate himself. If
that was the case, the Bill was still defective, and_
ought not to pass; but if the Law Officers would say
that it bore a different construction, he would then
be satisfied, and give the measure his consent with
cheerfulness and gratitude.
Mr. FRANKLAND said, the last observations
went to impugn the whole body of the Common
Law of England ; for nothing was more usual in all
the Courts, than for persons to give evidence, for
which they were afterwards liable to a prosecution.
What he particularly rose for, however, was to ad-
vert to the dangerous allusion so carelessly made to
the Star Chamber: When Gentlemen in great de-
liberative Assemblies made use of such words, there
was that kind of infatuation in the public mind
which made them go abroad,' as if there was a de-
termination in the Parliament to grant powers simi-
lar to those which history had branded with merited
execration. Mankind were ever disposed to adopt
outré ideas, though, in fact, the mischief of the
Star-Chamber was not so much owing to ita con-
struaion, as to its tremendous and enormous judg-
ments. The maxim of Nemo tenettyraecusare. seip-
,rum, was not confined to the English Law, but was
-an established principle, of universal Justice.., Not._
withstanding which, all Courts were in the daily
habits of compelling Witnesses to give evidence,
with some limitations, against themselves ; for if
it did not subjea them to fines and punishments, it
at least exhibited to the Court' and the world the
real view of their charafters. In this case, the
words Parliamentary and -Constitutional Jealousy
were to him unintelligible. Admitting even that
the Navy and Admiralty Beards had powers com-
petent to purposes of this- inquiry, yet they would
have to examine into the abuses in their Own de-
partments, and
_then, 'indeed, become the subjects
of true- parliamentary and constitutional jealousy,
by sitting in judgment upon themselves.
The ATTTORNEY GENERAL said'his object was
to go distinctly to all the clauses and amendments
made by the Lords, and canvass them separately ;
which he Was ready to do at this time if it seemed
most consonant to the wishes of the House. Speak-
ing of them generally, the difficulty which he had to
encounter was to persuade those Gentlemen, who
approved of the Bill in its former shape, that these
• Amendments, instead of rendering it nugatory,
tended to make it more effective than it was before.
There was one thing which, he wished their not to
lose' sight of, which was, that the Bill might be
amended in the 'presen't . Session, so that' if the
1 powers now given should rove deft tine, or

likely to defeat the purpotes of the Inquiry, '
might be enlarged as soon as that case should b 4
made oat. If the objet should be checked by
the limitation of the powers, it may be found
necessary even to extort and wring, the secret - .
the guilty for the sake of the Public, and force then"
to criminate themselves and their characters morally
though it might not affect their persons or their
property. This, he said,.might be the indispensiblq,
result of some of these amendments, though if that
compulsion should .not in effect be necessary,. he ,
would rather do without it. He would not, he
said, follow the example given him by some Hon.
Gentlemen, by restating .former observations upon,
points which had been sufficiently discussed before.
Whether the Navy or Admiralty had the,powers
required or not, they could not be the proper pet'.
sons, as they could not be their own Judges ; besides,
neither of them had any power whatever in regard
to Prize Agency, which constituted a very material
part of the abuses. Proceeding directly to the amend' •
ments, he observed, that it was meant to insert the
words " nature of," after the word "
The design of this was manifestly of a merciful
tendency, to describe the abuse and not the persons
of the offenders. (It would be tedious and uninf,
teresting to follow the Learned and Right Hon.
Gentleman through the minute and verbal details of
every athendment, though it might be proper to
take notice of his most prominent observation
—What he thought most. particularly, attracted 11-,°
attention of the House, was the omission of ct''
clause,' and the substitution of another. Gentlemen.
seemed to think that some injury Might arise fri2sl
inadvertent answers made to accidental qUatibns;
but he confessed, that he was one of those who could
not see how there need he so much tenderness and
jealousy for the protection of crimes, as to be al-
ways. cautioning Witnesses not to give an answer. •
Witnesses, under the present Bill, may, if theY
.think proper, refuse to give answers which
criminate themselves ; but if they chose to volun..
teer, and did not themselves objeCt to them, the';
they were no longer protected by the -law. In il=l
view of the case, the punishment of past crimes v`'` 3'
but a minor
.consideration, and the future prevet!"
Lion of abuses the material objen. But what was ,
there obnoxious in these provisions ? Did they no
follow what was the common and dailfeour'se 01'14;
Magistrates of the Country, who told persons:
cused, that they need not answer to the charge,,
if they were .willing to- confess, it .was zow;:..H
taken down, and, if necessary, made use of di"
terwards against them on their trials ? This .
was the pratlice that pervaded the whole ranze
the Criminal Code of 'the Country. He owned, tb3t
if the Bill was not open to Amendment in the
course of the present Session he should have pre'
felled the Clause as it 'originally stood. The 013"
jeftion to the latter was, that it would. enable, the
greater to convict the minor-culprit, for 'the former
would say " If Ido not disclose, some other will,
and therefore-as-I am-indemnified by my confessions
I had better save myself." To be candid, how-,
ever; he did not think the Clause in its "present
shape a material improvement to 'the Bill, neither is
it a very material injury to it, ,for if founkto im-
pede the operations of inquiry„ it was
,in
the
power of Parliament to sup ply the-deficiency at any
time by other alterations. 1-le concluded by de'
fending some blunders, as they were called in I.l'°.
Bill, such as the provision, that " The Bill -shall
be in force two years, unless it should be amended
in the present Session," observing that he had 11°
occasion to defend what some might call absur-
dities, though he might feel a little for those NOl°
understood them to be such.
Lord GLEN BERVIE also defended the languagl
He said that such redundanciei, •as lawful q.ne.is.'
tions," svitful neglect," &c. &c. might be
ly open to similar animadversions, but' had v.lwaY
been preserved in our Statutes to preserve the."'
wary from falling into errors. hich
Mr. S AVILLE adverted, to the assertion, w •
hat'.
he supposed personal to him, that some Member
been expelled the House in consequence of a forme'i;
Report of a Commit tee alluded to, bUt
,rnentioneac
that his conduit on that occasion was allowed to ha'
.been meritorious. (AI cry of Order I)
that
Mr. Klla Al RD:very readily explained, t. ,c
he meant no personal allusion to the 1-I,noura'-..
Gentleman, but in justice to hijtiself must observe'
that a Member. of the name of RiDG fi had been
pelle.d
.in the manner to which-1 adverted. •al
Mr.IVILBERFORCE said, that the princip..s
'difficulty with him,.who was sensible of the merits
of of the measure itself, and of the Board from
• von'
'it originated arose from the considerable alter,i ir
which the Bill had undergone, which mutilate
equats
to such a degree, as to endanger rendering it inc,,
fetloal ; and the.provision allowing it to be arnel'o'll
ed in the present Session, was the only ground_eo
which he would now support it. lie owned hinls,lc
unequal to the task of arguing a law cast with.,
great Legal Authority so often alluded to, an" re,
therefore should- not attempt it, were it strialo
viler to. do so. There were certainly manY --p' be
committed by people in' low stations, 'who 1113):, if
much afraid of legal prosecutions ; and theretor'ein
warned, as they would be, by the amended Claus.vait
this Bill, that they need not answer, would
themselves of it, so as to oppose a bar to all u. Ss,
inquiry. The objed of this measure was con'_re,
edly not so much condign punishment as 'the.
_Poo
vention of abuses ; or if ever great offenders sniuli it
escape by making useful discoveries, he th01c.,,.
would be no bad compromise for the Puh.liwir,
By the amended Clause, while you seal the and
nesS'slips you are not the nearer punishment ;, it
perhaps indemnity would be a good bargain, 1141)/oie
you could come at the real grounds and seat ue_r.in,.
abuses. In taking the first moment of Peace wi,ol),
both ti'
isitei,tßutoianrgd.stliainsdsothbeeGneofivceiarinmanenint qwuierry;,,
85 g- 5
deserving of the' support of the Country. Tbe 1-:„L)
Lord at the' head of the Admiralty,. who '"``S
lustrious in War, had, by his services anue
attention at the dawn of Peace stamped an a .‘",l.`weie
-value on his character. Abuses of all kinas
had beyond
inct theat e
d -moneyfa lse whichsentiments
time wasnts embezzle
jdro bacYnoltiol
ss
They
knaves, making it a kind of duty in them t v ja!
at each. other ;, they enlarged the sphere%toe
raa,ce to
taught Dependents b their own r.
connivances and Cory ruptions Co alarger

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