The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-13 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jux.r 12.

uopntrsoi.elwsin
at large; wbeu be said
The SPEAKER took his chair at twenty minutes past
five.
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY gave notice, that on Mon-
day next he would move, in consequence of what took
place in the other House of Parliament last night, for a
call of the House for Thursday next.
Mr. W. W. WYNN hoped the Hon. Gentleman would
state the object for which he meant to move the call, be-
cause, for his own part, be had not the slightest notion.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY would be prepared to state on
Monday the grounds. At present he considered it right to
give notice of his motion, that absent Members might be
aware of it.
An HoN. Afrikusan presented a petition from an indi-
♦idual named William Wicks, an attorney of Chelmsford,
and practitioner in the Insolvent Debtors' Court, praying
that if the Bill for the abolition of imprisonment for debt
passed into a law, compensation might be made to prac-
titioners.
cationsalluT dheed tSOLICITOR-GENERAL
moaind
es
etr,t,edhiinito have a clan's of the nature now
the Bill, but he never could think
of doing such a thing, arid
he
bus" this House on such a
petition that would be p
individuals in such a matter as the
or;:entto have it said that the in-
terests in the way of a measure
presentfor public good.
Mr. TOOKE nits quite sure that be spoke the mai-
spituereebisettleto.f.oh:oblutiptivedriciiiwaeimpe

they were perfectly willing that the Bill should be passed
into a law, and that no compensation should be awarded
to attorneys, who were likely to lose considerable business
by the passing of the measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to order. He believed the
rule of the House to be, that no petition calculated to oc-
, carrion discussion was to be presented at this time.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL moved for certain returns re-
specting the payment of fees by law students in Ireland.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from
en attorney of the name of George Fletcher, praying
also for compensation in cage the abolition of Impri-
sonment for Debt Bill should pass into a law.
Mr. W. W. WYNN entertained great doubt whether
such petitions should be received by the House. Receiving
such petitions really came within the principle of admit-
ting the propriety of a petition from the last finisher of
the law.—(Hear, hear.) If such petitions were to be
entertained, the highly respectable gentleman—the last
finisher of the law—must be considered to have been
hardly dealt with in not having had compensation awarded
to him in the respect of the loss he must have sustained
from the passing of some recent Acts of Parliament.
(Hear and laughter. )
Mr. HODGES presented a petition from the labourers
of a place in Kent, praying for relief from the burdens
which were a dead weight to industry, and for a repeal
of the duties on malt.
Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition from an
individual named Popay, complaining of the allegations
contained in a petition, which on the 26th of June was
presented to the House, and on which, as they reflected on
his character, be prayed to be heard by counsel before the
Committee.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the mer-
chants, traders, and shipowners of the city of Dublin, in
favour of the Kingstown Ship Canal.—Referred to the
Committee. Also a petition from the parishioners of St.
Nicholas Galway, praying an inquiry into the charity
funds of that corporation.
Col. EVANS brought in a Bill for the amendment
of the Vestries Act.
Colonel EVANS called the attention of the House to a
very peculiar circumstance which bad occurred at the Old
Bailey. An apprehension was entertained that all the
Middlesex trials that bad taken place there were irregular,
and that the prisoners, who had been convicted of very se-
rious crimes, were again to be let loose upon society. He
wished to know whether his Majesty's Government knew
anything of the circumstances ?
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said he feared there
was great reason to apprehend that above 100 individuals
had been illegally tried at the Old Bailey. The circum-
stances, as he understood them, were these :—Towards
the end of the sessions it was stated to the Judges
that some bills of indictment had not been lawfully found ;
an inquiry took place into the facts, and the Judges were
induced to put an end to the tria's. A meeting of the
Judges took place at the chambers of the Chief Justice of
the King's Bench, and they were unanimouelyof opinion
that the trials which had taken place were illegal.
--(Hear, hear, hear.) They caused information to
be given to the Middlesex Magistrates, in order that the
Grand Jury might be resummoned, the witnesses resworn,
the bills again presented, and the accused retried ; but
the Middlesex magistrates thought they knew the law
better than the Judges. They resolved that no irregularity
or illegality had taken place, they prevented the Grand
Jury from being resummoned, and of course pre-
vented the possibility of the prisoners being retried.
--(Hear.) The circumstances attending the irregularity
were these—the Bills were to be found at the Sessions
House, at Clerkenwell. On Monday the magistrates met,
but on Tuesday and Wednesday no magistrates were there,
yet during those two days the crier went on swearing
witnesses, as if the Court were sitting—those witnesses
went before the Grand Jury, and upon their evidence the
bills were found. The Judges were unanimously of
opinion, that the crier bad no authority to administer the
oath, and that therefore the Bills were not lawfully
found. The Middlesex Magistrates were of a different
opinion, and what under those circumstances was now to
be done was more than he could tell, for there could
be now no new trials, and the sentences on the prisoners
could not be carried into effect;
Mr. H. HUGHES said, that being himself a Middlesex
Magistrate—(Laughter)—in the absence of the Henour-
able and Learned Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Rotch),
who was chairman of the Middlesex Sessions, be would
inform the House what those Magistrates had done, when
they met at the Sessions House, yesterday, on Clerkenwell
Green, and he would state what the course was which they
had perhaps imprudently adopted. It was alleged
that the Court had adjourned from Monday to Thurs-
day, and that in consequence all that had been
done in the interval had been illegal. They, how-
ever, found on inquiry that the adjournment bad been from
Monday to Tuesday, from Tuesday to Wednesday, and from
Wednesday to Thursday, as usual. The question yesterday
discussed was, whether the course that had beetutur.stnoi
CrtElikertife-CO.tirt, vt'ia had been employed by the Court
for sixty years, and he said it was the uniform practice to
do as had been done in this instance during all that
period.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) That officer stated
that it was true, that on that and on other occasions he
bad been alone when witnesses were sworn to go before
the Grand Jury. The difficulty with the magistrates
was that there was no statute to guide them, and there-
fore they imagined that the ancient custom must
prevail.—(Loud and continued laughter.) He could only
say for himself in answer to the smiles of the Hon. and
Learned Solicitor-General that he had been but a short pe-
riod in the commission, and that he had only attended the
sessions three times ; and, consequently he was obliged
to inquire what had ben the custom in such a case,
and particularly as there was a question whether those
who had been tried and acquitted should be re-tried.
It appeared from the evidence of that crier, that the same
practice, whether wrong or right, had been followed for
60 years.—(Laughter.) As to the message from the
Judges, no doubt the Magistrates received such a mes-
sage, but it was not through such a medium as they
thought bound them to attend to it ; and therefore, rather
than cure the defect in their proceedings by a
mode which most certainly would stultify what
they had done, which was justified by the practice of sixty
years, they thought it best th a some should go untried.
If what was done was wrong, and the parties tried were
wrongfully tried, all those tried for the last 60 years had
been equally wrongfully tried.
The SOLICITOR•GENERAL felt bound to say that
no such practice bad before existed, and the Judges had
employed an authorized officer, the clerk of the peace, to
tell the Magistrates what course ought to be taken.
Mr. C. CHAPMAN, as one of the Magistrates, begged to
say that the statement of the Hon. Member for Oxford,
with respect to the practice, was perfectly correct.
Mr. H. HUGHES said that the Magistrates had
searched their records, and found that it bad often hap-
pened that only one magistrate was sitting while the
Grand Jury was sitting.
The SOLICITOR- GENERAL stated that the Judges
bad not come to their decision till they had communed with
the crier spoken of by the Hon. Member.
Mr. O'CONNELL said on Tuesday no Magistrate was
attending except the crier.—( Laughter. )
Mr. H. HUGHES said that the Magistrates, were in
and out of the room in succession—(Laughter)—they had
DO business to detain them.

Mr. O'CONNELL—They bad the swearing of wit-
nesses, which cught to have been attended to ; but it wats
evident that the inferior tribunal had not attended to the
suggestion of the 12 Judges, and the result had been, that
men had been tried for their lives by an incompetent tri•
bunal. He trusted such a thing would never occur again.
Mr. C. W. WYNN said it was clear there had been
great indecorum and want of respect to the Judges, but
they ought now to consider whether the inconveniences
to which it had given rise could not be remedied by
passing an Act, which might be done in a day, to autho-
rial the trial of the parties who had not been tried by
special commission.
Mr. HUME s aid there was a gentleman appointed to
perform the public duties of Chairman to the Bench of
Magistrates, who was paid a regular salary for the per-
formance of that duty. It was tue a Committee of that
House had recommended that salary ought not to be paid out
of the public money, but by the county. This, however,
ought to make no difference. When Mr. Const resigned,
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough was appointed
his successor, and was of course expected to perform
his duty on the same principle as his predecessor. If that
sys•em required amendment, it was the duty of the House
take it immediately into account. As Chairman of the
Bench of Magistrates, however, the Hon. Member must
be expected to perform his duty, and in the event of his
non-performance, to be accountable to that House.

The SOLICITOR•GENERAL hoped nobody would
censure the conduct of Mr. Corot, who was now no
longer Chairman, until the circumstances which had oc-
curred whilst he retained that situation, were in evidence
before the House.
Mr. H. HUGHES begged to explain, that he did not
mean to justify what had been done by the Magistrates,
or to express any opinion on its legality.
After a few words from Col. EVANS, Mr. AGLIONFIY,
and Mr. WYNN, the conversation dropped.

EAST INDIA COMPANY S CHARTER.

On the motion of Mr. C. GRANT, the House want

i into Committee on this Bill, and resumed the considera-
tion of Mr. Hump's amendment.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, the only object au-the House
in legislating on this subject should be, the welfare and
happiness of our Hindoo subjects. This principle had
been recognised by the Court of Proprietors as the only
ground of their acceptance of what they appeared to treat
as a burden imposed on them. No valuable consideration
was given. Under these circumstances, therefore, it
was highly desirable that the House should have an oppor-
tunity, at the end of ten years—if they found the plan did
not effect its object—of terminating the present strange-
ment en two years' notice.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said, east no reason had been
given for this limitation. It was highly important that
the Government of India should be assured to the Com-
pany for a sufficient term, because their divid'enas were to
be paid out of the surplus of the territorial revenue—thus
giving therm the strongest interest in the good govern-
ment of India. In considering the claim of the Com-
piny, the largo property given up by them should hot be
left out of consideration.
Mr. tWART thought it desirable that an arrangement
of this kind should be terminable in as short a time as
possible, should Parliament think it advisable.
After a few words from Sir HARRY VERNEY,
Mr. HARDY remarked that the amendment proposed
no absolute restriction ; but, as the present plan was an
experiment, if it did not succeed, Parliament ought to have
the power of stopping it. Ten years was not, in his opinion,
too long nor to short a period of trial.
Lord SANDON opposed the amendment, on the ground
that it was impossible for the Government of India, dur-
ing the time proposed, to make those improvements in the
arrangements of the revenue, and the government in
general, which were necessary to give stability and con-
sistency to the Government of India.
Mr. HUME observed, that Parliament ought to retain
in its own hands the power of making any alteration in
the government of India, and he therefore thought that
all the purposes of the measure would be answered if they
were to obtain the power of regulating the commerce of
India, according to the system proposed for ten years, sub •
ject to a notice of two years. At the same time lie was
anxious that it should he understood that he did not speak
out of hostility to the East India Company.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
Against the Amendment
For it
Majority against the Amendment
The original clause was then agreed to.
Mr. MARJORIBANKS, on the motion for the reading
of the third clause, observed that it was desirable that
the China Bill should be brought forward at an hour
when discussion would he practicable. From the pro-
visions of the Bill a considerable inconvenience would
arise, inasmuch as the tea market would, in consequence
of the arrangements that were proposed, be left free for
five or six mond s, entirely to foreigners.
The third cause was agreed to.
The fourth clause was (as we understood) postponed.
The fifth clause was agreed to.
Clauses six to sixteen inclusive were agreed to.
On the seventeenth clause being proposed,
Mr. HUME suggested, tint, on any change in the
Aministration, certain of the Commisssoners of the Board
of Control—say the Chief President and Secretary—
should retain their places at the Board.
Mr. WYNN was understood to be favourable to the
suggestion.
Sir R. H. INGLIS read an extract from the evidence
given before the East India Committee by the Right Hon.
Mr. Courtenay, in support of the propriety of some
Members of the Board being permanent.
Mr. C. GRANT observed that the course which had
been recommended by the Hon. Member for Middlesex
was one that could not be so easily settled as he seemed to
imagine. The Hon. Member desired that the majority of
the Commissioners of the Board of Control should be
permanently members of that Board. There would be
th;s inconvenience attending such an arrangement, that as
the Chief Commissioner must be changed with every
Ministry, he might, on coming into office, find himself
surrounded by men whose opinions differed from his own.
He thought besides, that even if that objection did not
exist, too much importance was attached to the matter,
for all the routine business of the Board, every thing that
depended on official experience alone, might be safely
intrusted to the officers of the Board, who were very well
capable of discharging their duties. The officers of the
Board of Control deserved this compliment from him
and he was happy to have this opportunity of paying it.
Mr. C. WYNN was happy to be able to add his tea.

-51

timony to that of his Right Hon. Friend, as to the great
efficiency of the officers of the Board of Control, and cer-
tainly, so far as they were concerned, the permanency of
the Members of that Board was useless.
Mr. R. GRANT observed that if the members of the
Board were permanent, and the chief of it was not, he
might often be subjected to the inconvenience of finding
The 17th clause was

agrees to.
Clauses 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, and 23 were agreed to, after
some merely vert,al amendments had been made.

On the 24th clause, giving the right to proprietors to
vote by attorney,
Mr. C. WYNN said he much wished to know what
were the grounds of this clause, and what would h.: the
effect of it ?

Mr. C. GRANT said, that the reason for introducing
the clause was, that the constituency by which the Di.
rectors were now elected, was very limited, so that the
voters were completely under the control of the existing
Directors. The effect of the measure would be to extend

that constituency, and it was but fair that those who
happened to reside at a distance from London, and whose
ill health, or advanced age, might prevent them from
corning to London, should be allowed a voice in the choice
of the men by whom their affairs were to be managed.
After a few words from Mr. Cutlir Fergusson, Mr.
Robinson, Mr. Macaulay, Mr. Buckingham, Sir R. Inglis,
Mr. Wynn, and Mr. Lyall, the clause was agreed to.
Clouse 25 was also carried. It respected the settlement
of accounts; upon which a short conversation took place
between Mr. Hume, Mr. C. Fergusson, Mr. Wynn, and
Sir R. Inglis.
The 26th clause, relating to the transtnission of de-
patches, called forth a few remarks from Mr. C. Grant,
Sir R. Inglis, Mr. Humeand Mr. C. Fergusson ; after
which it was agreed to postpone it.
The 27th clause, regarding notices of Meetings of
Courts of Proprietors, was ageed to, Mr. Hume having
stated that he had no objection to the term of eight days
being fixed.
A proviso was added to the 28th clause, in order that,
under particular circumstances the Court of Directors
might send despatches to India without inspection by the
Board of Control. The clause was then carried.
On re iding the 29th clause,
Mr. C. GRANT took the opportunity of stating that
this Act did not invest the Beard of Control with any
power over the Court of Directors beyond that which it
at present by law enjoyed. He was aware that a con-
trary opinion was abroad, but it was ill-founded.

Clauses 30, 31, and 32 were agreed to.
Clause 33 was struck out by consent.
Clause 34 was also carried.
Clauses 35 and 36 were agreed to without any
material discussion. On clause 37,
Mr. C. FERGUSSON suggested that the Presidencies
of Madras and Bombay should be allowed to remain on
their present footing, and that there should be established
at Agra a Government subordinate in rank to the others,
but suited to the circumstances of that part of our Indian
territory. If the Presidencies of Madras and Bombay were
to he reduced in the manner proposed, no men of efficient
talents or high character would be induced to accept them,
and the result would he that the whole of India must fall
under the dominion of one Governor unassisted—a state of
things which be could but regard as fraught with much
mischief.

Mr. ROBERT GRANT was quite of opinion that every
part of India should be subordinate and subject to one
supreme Government, but he should be sorry to become
a party to any change that would render the Governments
about to be established such as men of high qualifications
would be unwilling to accept. The measure was so framed
as to leave it open to discussion whether the Presidents of
the different Presidencies should have Councils or not.
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON explained, that one of
the enacting clauses of the Bill directed that the subordi-
nate Presidencies should be constituted without Councillors.
Mr. WYNN said, that the Committee ought distinctly
to know what sort of Council the Subordinate Presidencies
were to have.

Mr. HHAIE said that he did not know, and he believed
the Committee did not know, what they were disputing
about. The Government should explain explicitly what
sort of Council they meant to establish in Madras, Bom-
bay, and Agra.
Mr. ROBERT GRANT admitted that the debate had
wandered, but all the plan of Government was explained
in the Bill. .

Sir R. INGLIS agreed with the Hon. Member for
Kirkcudbright, that the geogr phical extent of India wa:
too great to be put under the dominion of one individual,
as was intended by the Bill.
Mr. WYNN contended that the power put in the band,:
,f the Board of Control, by which that Boatel was em-
powered to regulate the details of the Constitution of the

County of Middlesex Joseph Hume
George Byng
E. John Ivatt Briscoe
County of Surrey
W.John W. Denison
John Leach

City of London Alderman Wood
Sir John Key, Bart

Ge"rge Grote
George Lyall
City of Westminster ........Sir F. Burdett, Bart
Lieut—Colonel Evans
Borough of Southwark William Brougham ...
John Humphreys......
Borough of Marylebone Sir William Horne ...
Sir Samuel Whalley...
Borough of Finsbury Right Hon. R. Grant
Mr. Sergeant Spankie
Borough of Tower Hamlets William Clay

Dr. Lushington
Borough of Lambeth Hon. C Tennyson
Jun.
Borough Hawes,
Borough of Greenwich Edward Bernard
Captain Dundas, R.N

Of each

EAST INDIA CHARTER.

MINORITY
Of 27 (Teller included) who voted for Mr. Hume'a
Amendment, that it might be competent, on giving
two years' notice, at any time after the expiration of
ten years, to terminate the term of the management,
and make such further provisions and amendments as
should then be deemed necessary.
For the Amendment
Against it
Total
ENGLAND.
Aglionby, A.—Cockermouth
Bolling, W.—Bolton-le-Moors
Brotherton, Joseph—Salford
Buckingham, J. S.—Sheffield
Dillwyn, L. W.—Glamorgansh
Ewart, W.—Liverpool
Faithful!, G.—Brighton
Finch, G.—Stamford.
Gaskell, D.—Wakefield
Hardy,
W.—CarlisleJohn—Bradford
James,es
Lister, E. Cunlitre—Bradford
Potter. Richard—Wigan
Richards, J.—Knaresborough
Tennyson, Right Hon. C.—
Labeth
Purnmer W.—Blackburn
Wane: J. A.—Hastings

-105
Whitmore, W. \V —Wolver-
hampton
Williams, G.—Ashton
Wynn, Right Hon C. W. W.—
Montgomeryshire
Young, G. F.—Tynemouth

SCOTLAND.
Ewing, James—Glasgow
Gillon, W. D.—Falkirk
Maxwell, Sir J.—paisley
Wallace, R.—Greenock

IRELAND.
Vigors, N. A.—Carlow

TELLER.
Hume, J.--Middlesex