The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-21 00:00:00

any increase had at all taken place, because the
commissioners bad nothing. niore to do than to ascertain
the amount of tithes aar..ed for or adjudicated to be paid,
ind charging that to the nw❑ r of tie parish, taking only
into account the ailjus men, term. He bad endeavoured
as well as possible to inquire into some of those minute
cases of increase that hail taken place. The Committee
were aware that a clause hail been introduced in
the Act giving to each Commissioner power where be
thought the amount tendered to him was considerably
lower than tie amount that was due, and not exceeding
one-fifth of the anieunt of the composition. The Com-
missioners, he was happy to say had had recourse to tbat
power in but very few cases. It bad happened when the
landlord had been a lay ialet-et.acor, and where the
tithe had been separated from the rent, that by
that operation a nominal rise had taken place in the amount
of tithes ; again, i❑ some cases the amount of increase had
not occurred upon the whole amount that was charge-
able upon the parish, but upon the amount charge-
able upon individuals, and this had only been
productive of great clamour and dissatisfaction.
Several instances occurred of persons who were afraid of
lending any countenance to vestries, that they should
resuscitate tithes, which they bad supposed were buried.
Instances occurred where they would not allow persons to
attend vestries, and prevented the requisite number, which
is ten, from attending. There were many individuals at
present in town for the purpose of explaining those cir-
cumstances, to which he (Mr. Littleton) alludes.
Regarding the subject of illegal combination,
some cases might have occurred when such de-
mands were made as were unjust ; but there were
some cases, such as in abbey lands, where land, though
exempt from composition, still became chargeable
under some peculiarity of circumstances. In the
parish of Ardguin such was the case ; but there
always remained an appeal which was available to
the parties who thought proper to have recourse to it ;
and there were few instances where parties were
debarred from these advantages, that it did not arise
frotn their own neglect of all available means.—(Hear.)
An objection might be raised by the landholders of the
following kind—they might say " Why do you deprive us
in 1830 of those advantages which are now se-
cured to us by the price of grain being the basis
of composition, which, in 1840, may possibly be
considerably lower ?"—(Hear, hear.) In the Bill be had
not introduced any clause in reference to that point,
but it might be worthy of consideration whether they
should not he allowed the advantages of the existing
scale of prices in regulation of the redemption.
Sir R. PEEL asked the Right Hon. Gentleman who
would be made to pay the expenses of law proceedings and
others?

Mr. LITTLETON said that as the Bill stood at pre-
sent, the tithe owners would hare to pay all expenses.
He believed he had included every point of importance
in his statement, though he confessed he found great
difficulty in so doing, it being a matter of such mag-
nitude. He could not sit down without impressing
upon the House that the Government were not sub-
mitting any proposition for the appropriation of the
revenues of the church. The two questions were totally
distinct. It was the bounden duty of Parliament to
realise this property, which belonged, if not to the
Church, most undoubtedly to the State.—(Heir, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentlema❑ concluded by moving the
resolution :
" That it is the opinion of this Committee that the composi-
tion of tithes in Ireland ought to be abolished from and after
the Ist of November in the present year, in consideration of a
land-tax to be annually granted to his Majesty, payable by the
persons who are, and have been, liable to such compositions, and
of the same amounts, such land-tax to be redeemable, and out
of the produce a provision to be made for the indemnity of the
persons liable to such compositions."

Mr. O'CONNELL thought the Right Hon. Gentleman
was not entitled to call upon the House to suspend
its opinion of the plan until he brought in his Bill. He
was disposed to congratulate the House that the Secre-
tary_at•War had not yet brought in the army estimates,
because, after the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
he might find it necessary to consider how far he should
increase the army, for that army must certainly be in-
creased, and very considerably too, if thig measure
was to be carried into effect. (Hear and laughter.)
Never was a more idle scheme or fallacious proposition.
The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to have a bad opinion
of the understanding of the Irish people—he might be ig-
norant, anti lie (Mr. O'Connell) was sorry to say he be-
lieved he was ; but be ought not to think so lowly of the
Irish, as to imagine that by merely changing the name of
tithe the country would be satisfied. He had read that the
way to obtain a character for oratory was to bring forward
a bundle of facts, no matter how applie ible they were,
and certainly the Right Hon. Gentleman had brought
forward a number of factß, but could any thing be less
applicable than they were? He had brought forwatti the
averages of several counties, but let it be remembered that
none of those were southern counties.

Mr. LITTLETON observed that he had taken them
from Armagh, Cavan, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Leitrim,
Londonderry, Mayo, and Sligo. Kilkenny certainly was
the only one of the southern counties. -
Mr. O'CONNELL then proceeded to deny that the
number of tithe payers had been diminished by the Com-
position Act, and declared that it had greatly increased.
(Hear, hear.) In all villages and small towns in Ireland,
the labourers with small kitchen gardens were now charged
with tithes which they never paid bef ire the Composition
Act. The averages of the Right Hon. Gentleman had
been taken from persons occupying small plots of ground,
and who paid but a few farthings in tithe.—(Hear, hear.)
He entered into these details not with the dispositio❑ of
finding fault with the Hon. Gentleman, but with a
melancholy presentiment of the way in which the
measure would be received in Ireland. It would at first
be received with a shout of ridicule—that he did not
fear ; but next it would he thought of in a more serious
manner, and of that he thought every one had a
right to be afraid.—(Hear, hear.) Why should not
the Government take other measures to put an end
to the tithe agitation, which had been in existence for
the last 75 years ? There certainly had been a lull
lately, but it was the cse even in the worst of
storms, and so it was now. He was afraid that the
measure propounded by the Right Hon. Gentleman
would again stir up the passions of the people. They
might again renew their bloody laws ; it would be
in the recollection of the House that only a short
time ago the punishment of death was put upon
all offences, even the most slight resistance to the payment
of tithes. They might again renew those laws, but it
would not m die the payment of tithes more easy.—
(Hear, bear.) How should a statesman look at a ques-
tion which had been agitated so violently by a whole people
for such a length of time as seventy years ? It was not the
amount of money that was objected to, but the manner in
which that money was applied—(Hear, hear)—that
caused the extent of dissatisfaction that prevailed. That
agitation had existed for sixty or seventy years, and
he defied the Right Honourable Gentleman to deny that
it was not now as vigorous as it ever was. If
there had been a lull, as no doubt there had been,
it was only caused by the faith the people of Ire-
land put in the promises of the Right Honourable
Gentleman, which were now to be all falsified.
This was the extinction they had been promised. What
was before tithe was now to be called land-tax. The
grievance was not to be extinguished nor lessened : nay,
in some instances it was to be increased, he believed, one-
third—

Mr. LITTLETON—One-thirtieth.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Hon. Member now said one-
thirtieth, and on a former day he had said one-third.
This was the way in which he was legislating for Ire-
land. He (Mr. O'C.) would venture to tell him that
he was legislating in the dark—that he was consulting
neither the feelings, nor the wants, nor the wishes of the
people of Ireland. He might still go on with his sys-
tems, but they would be found unavailing. The people
of Ireland had been themselves so criminal in their oppo-
sition to tithes, that others could feel no compassion
for them ; but instead of palliating remedies for
them, the Government had done nothing but tithe
them, and fleece them, and coerce them. What else, he
would ask, had the present Administration done for Ire-
land ? and now they come down with this greatest of all
humbugs that was ever brought before the country—this
land tax. The Hon. Gentleman had commenced with his
winning pity for the Protestant clergy, then he gave them a
sum of 60,0001. to relieve their distresses, and then he took
all the powers with which the law armed him of execution
for debt, seizure of the person, and, in abort, every mode
that could be had recourse to to get back his 60,000/:
He understood that 12,0001. had been recovered, and
that it cost 28,000/. to get it back.—(An Hon. Member
exclaimed 20,0001.) As far as he (Mr. O'Connell)
could collect, it had cost 28,0001., and he had
endeavoured to wade through the returns for the pur-
pose of ascertaining the fact. He would prefer being
contradicted by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself,
but at all events, it was admitted that 20,0001. was thus
expended. Nay, what was worse, horse, foot, artillery,
and marines (for he understood five or six com-
panies of marines were thus employed) were put
in requisition, and scoured the country from one
end to the other, at least three provinces out of the
four, to get back this 12,000/. ; and thus horse, foot, and
artillery were
-sent 'bunting after pigs, and many after

cattle, and carrying off the clothing of the peasantry,
women as well as men, and thereby getting up as pretty a
scene of predial agitation as ever was witnessed in Ire-
land.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") What followed ?
They then came down with their Coercion Bill;
instead of conciliating, they laid this blister upon the
shoulders of the people. This was the first step in tithes;
the second was the Bill brought in by the Right
Honourable Gentleman for composition, and there never
was a Bill so grossly opposed to the interests of the people.
What were they about to do now ? They were about to
turn the landlords of Ireland into tithe proctors.—
(Cheers.) He implored them to pause before they did
-o ; let them recollect, that it was not the amount of the
payment, but the application of the money that went to
the hearts of the people of Ireland. They had a double
ehject in view—one was in full force, the other,
which had been kept as much as possible nut of the view
of the people—he meant the rent—would be soon as much
agitated as tithes had ever been. They had hitherto been
separate. Landlords of Ireland look to yourselves ! You
are made by this Act tithe proctors, and rest assured that
agitation will soon he applied to rent as well as to tithes.
He implored the House not to entail still greater miseries
upon Ireland, or they would soon find that an attack upon
a sinecure church would be soon turned into one upon
landlords and rent. He felt it his duty to protest
against this Bill as not holding out the smallest species
of relief to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He protested
against it, as holding out no alleviation whatever
to the miseries of Ireland. Why could they not legistate
with common sense? Was there not common sense in
Ireland ?_(Loud laughter.) He thanked them for that
t beer ; he really deserved it for asking them to act with
common sense towards Ireland, for when had they done so ?
—(Cheers.) He would ask them what would the people
of England think, if they had a monarch like James 11.,
with a subservient Parliament, or if one of the illustrious
house of Brunswick should take up the prejudices of the
ex-illustrious house of Stuart—if he should reconcile
himself with the Pope of Rome, and if he had a majority
of that House with him—suppose be passed a law giving
all the livings of Protestants to a Catholic clergy,
lie would ask them what would be the feeling of the people of
England? They would, and ought, to look with just indig-
nation and abhorrence upon the wretched imitator of James
11. They (the Government) wanted to preserve the sinecure
Church in Ireland. There are thirty parishes in Ireland,
and not a single Protestant in them. In the southern
parts of Ireland, nine-tenths of the Protestant ministers
had no congregation. He (Mr. O'Connell) called
ten them to disengage the people of Ireland from paying
for a church they derived no benefit from.—(Hear, hear.)
But that was not the scheme adopted. No ; the Right
Honourable Gentleman smiles, but his plan is not one
that can be called a rational one.—(Hear, hear.)
It would be very cruel to send a class of gentlemen
like the Protestant clergymen of Ireland adrift upon the
world. No one in that House would be more anxious
than he (Mr. O'Connell) was to preserve them in the
full security of that estate which lasted for their natural life. ,
It was co inheritance, it was but a life estate. Let the State
supply the Protestant part of Ireland with ministers
of that religion, but let them not continue a sinecure
church. What was attempted to be done in Scotland
under one of those very Stuarts ? Wby, to force a church
upon the people, and, even unto death, the people were
driven to their moors and their fastnesses, but they came
down with the claymore, and smote them (the English Go-
vernment) to the earth ; they did not fight for any thing
but for toleration in religion. Did the Right Hon. Gent.
mean to allocate any thing to the Roman Catholic
Clergy in Ireland ? He did not say that lie would ;
but be (Mr. O'Connell) could tell him that that
clergy would not accept of any thing, and if they would
they could not. If the Bishops accepted of it,
the secular clergy would not, and if both accepted of it
there could he no pretext to give it to the Friars, and thus
the parish Priests and Bishops would be deserted, and the
friars would have all the religious duty to perform ; so
abhorrent was the idea of a connection between,Church and
State to the Irish people. He (Mr. O'C.) was an organ of
a great portion of the Roman Catholics in Ireland,
and he could say, that no measure would be more
dastardly condemned than any connection between Church
and state. He called on them to alleviate the condition
of the people; to pause before this Bill was laid on the table.
The Right Hon. Gentleman made some mistakes on legal
points. He (Mr. O'Connell) would make no observa-
tions en that, as they must have proceeded from his
not being acquainted with law ; but he rose
to protest against any acquiescence in the Bill,
introduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He disap•
proved of it in toto. It afforded no relief ;it effected
no alteration in their present grievances. What matter
was it whether the lash was laid on too high or too low,
if they still continued to flog, and the unhappy victim
still writhed at the triangle ? The alteration took
care of the landlords and the church, and still visited the
occupiers of the land with the s tine burden as before.
Let tithes be abolished, and such part of them as could
be rendered susceptible of commutation, let it be
appropriated to the lowering of rack rents, to the
building of hospitals, and the introduction of
an equitable system of poor laws. Let this be done, and
let them hear no more scolding speeches.
Mr. SFIAW thought the proposition good, inasmuch as
it tended to render the liquidation of a just payment less
burdensome to the payers. As to what the Hon. and
Learned 'Wernher had said about the people's objecting to
the application of the money being altered, he (Mr. S.)
thought that a point with which the payers had nothing
to do. The Hon. and Learned Member seemed to profess
himself desirous of avoiding agitation, which was rather
curious, considering how much that Hon. and Learned
Member had been connected with agitation.

Mr. H. GRATTAN called the Hon. and Learned
Member to order. The nutter now introduced had
nothing whatever to do with the question under discussion
Mr. SHAW would not contend the point of order with
the Hon. Member. All he would say was, that he hoped
the fullest time would be allowed for considering the pro-
posed 1311, before it was proceeded with.
Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR did not see that agita-
tion was so much to be deprecated. Political agitation
had produced much good ; and be could assert that never
had the county of Cork, for instance, been more generally
peaceable than when in a state of agitation.—(A laugh.)
He much regretted that the Right Hon, Secretary Lad
not done more for I reland. The disappointment with
regard to the present Bill would be universal and poig-
nant. While the House were voting 20,000,0001, for the
emancipation of Negro S!aves—and no one disputed the
justice and munificence of the act—the Irish felt that
nothing was done fur them. The inefficiency of the
present measure would fully appear, when properly under-
stood. The late Hon. Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Stanley)
shook his head, but he was not remarkable for his good
wishes towards Ireland. On the contrary, the Irish
attributed much of their distress to that Right Hon.
Gentleman's acts i❑ the last year. The present Secretary
had promised them abolition of tithe: he hail changed it
to a land tax, by which they would be as great sufferers as
ever. This was not the way to extinguish repeal agita-
tion: on the contrary, where there had been one petition
for repeal, there would now be a hundred. Nor did he
see that the landowners would he much better pleased by
this Bill of the " Chorea Secretary," the Heaven born
Minister, No. 2. He (M. F. O'C.) thought the landed
interest would be equally disappointed with the tithe-
payers; and these two great interests would for the future
unite, and the Hon. Secretary would then see what recep-
tion this Bill of his would meet with. He seemed not to
expect that the people of Ireland would not pay tithes :
he would find his mistake, and to him would the blame
of all the mischief revert. He (Mr. F. O'C.) hoped,
however, that the House would not sanction the measure.

Mr. BENETT supported the motion. Hon. Members
opposed the measure, without, however, suggesting any
better plan. He (Mr. B.) was hostile to tithes; but he
thought they would be removed by the proposed plan of
commutation, which be thought would produce the effect
generally desired. As to any portion being transferred to
the rent, such an occurrence could not take place until
after a series of years. It was true the landlord would
reap his portion of the advantage, but it was equally true
that he was entitled to such portion. He would ask the
lion. and Learned Member for Dublin, whether it was
his desire to have the tithes swept away without compen-
sation or commutation ? Did he want merely to relieve
the Catholics who had made their engagements in lands
subject to the tax? Was it the object of the Member for
Dublin to relieve only these, and leave the Protestants
to pay? He (Mr. Benett) was surprised to find such
strong objections to tithes proceeding from Catholics.
The Hon. Member for Dublin knew that it was with the
Catholic Church the system of tithes originated. That it
was there the fraud was first made sacred, and hallowed
by Canons, Decrees, and Councils.—(Hear, hear.) For
himself (Mr. B.) it was sufficient to know that they
were now legal, and as supported by the law he bowed to
them ; but then they were instituted by the nation for the
national interest, and therefore could be treated of by the
Legislature for the general advantage._( Hear.)
Colonel DAVIES was of opinion that the million
granted last session was a most ill-advised proceeding.
The measure now proposed, instead of allaying the hos-
tility to tithes, would, on the contrary; have a counter-
tendency.—(Hear, hear.) Instead of the opposition now
offered by the peasantry alone, it would excite the hostility