The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-10 00:00:00

' ONDO

tba
i atterropilt
. _
• in Ireland
.no,tareinedanw'etloiptuote3d.oinwingbtlite Roman Catholic hierarchy net the House free to proceed with the business of the country.
trig" so, for they durst net He maintailiedehat the course taken was not creditable to
4efio,
alit. As the measure stood in its diminiehed form, he those rtaNV in the Government, stet lie believed that theninie
~....li7,;32le,ypaiiiiefuhtomptitodnts,he It mean Catholic Church to exercise would ' corn., when the people of this country would be
withie.t being subject to a penalty of ashatmed 'Of slice legneatieti.--( Rear, and cheers.)
_ene_ saw the Attorney-General for Ireland in his place, Mr. BANK:t n said lie should -give his vote on very din.
Ce:. :mild like to hear from him, whether or not what ferent priuciple‘i (down, expre-eel h.e•
,the Nobe . Lord
fear „aeting in respect of the effect of the neea-ure was the - who had jest sat anil the Ron. [ember for the-Uni
t• to) ~woute. trusted in God' that nothing the Legesl aura ceul I ve,,ity of Oxford. He had a ereed teen in enly with his liee.
' Severe, in Prevent the Roman Cetholic etinj 'e s of tee ' Friend the Member lor the Ueiv rata ~f. °tate ;I, but he
: pa,..5.., %gip from ebtaining the advantage and euoperr of tee thootehethrit he would be but di soaring hie duty ie -vet; .1 g
• . ti.,70,.T. L clergy. Could any sincere
Pretestant dretel any I for- the:- amendment' neer ! htfore - ttie flottee ; for teem_
• the 11./. between 'the clergy of the Roman Catlualic. and of 'it came-to a qieetion of " Ayes". or .6 Noe.," he round that
Caociathtellaitee:
- fereTtestant Churches? He asked the House to pipe leen " aye" was the truth, anal he should give' his vote on the
interfered with the free action of the Roman '•• aye" side. He agreed with the noble Lord (Lard Dud-
illions iu Ireland, or before they gave their sane-Stuart) [het not onlY the present Government were in
ft._n a e measure which, in point of fact, would be More fault with regard, to the eneouragement which they had
1, neoeal of the Act of 1829. , given to the Pope buoether Governments had also given en-
. air. STANFORD found it exceedinglO difficult, no.: only co-tragement to -liomen Catholics, and tor these reasons he i
..o vote, but
neeoe, to speak, on an issue such as that reise lin the should vote for the resolution of the Hon. Member for Staf-
)ll7ll.n then under cuneideration' Still, he should give ford. When these discussions beettn, and when he found
portvts, not according to what men might say was the pure Lord Beaumont and other Rem et -Catholic Peers of rook
- tile, or meaning of the motion, but according to the prin- and talent giving their - assent' to the ine.eture, he WWI in
Wolk the Proposition. Suppose the motion affirmed, what hopes the discussions upon it might he conducted witnout
, kn. t iseaad to. It would lead to nothing._ Now, it could any religious questions being raised as between Protestant
ezpeitende id that he was opposed to the rope. ne had and Catholic. He ( Mr. Benkee) could assure thee: that such
illittnpoi d the sum of- 2 1. in printing and publishing a was he feeling of his mind, and that he never conei lentil
six co Itt on the patriots of Italy, of which he had only sold it a question as between Catholic and Protestant, but as a
I.oo,ltattpie:--tbe(Lßaiusbgohpter.) He was anxious. to give every political question in which he was bound to support the
of Rome in the re-establishment of maintenance of the Established Church. But that shoued
lWith itio.nal government. but he had reason to find fault not- drive him to adept a -course most- painful anti it.-
tratieh t steps which the Noble leader of the Whig Adminis- jurious to the feelings of - others. It was perfectly
lett Ireland
taken. The Noble Lord had endeavoured to go- true that the Catholic hierarchy in lreland tees rtcog-
that art:lipid through the Bishop of Rome. It was quite true nixed, trot only by • collusion, but by acts which took
hiillions "ISk WaS a difficult one, and that the wishes of seven place ander the eye of -the Sovereign; they were encouraged
the „urn' People were obliged to be
headsnulted; but still by the Government, and hopes held out to them that
Inert lailia.dopten by the responsible of the Govern- what they aspired to was not only not distasteful to the
et a ~ him open to censure. The Noble Lord was more Government, but they hail a right to think that no
ime.statesman than a Protestant in the government of the such course as that adopted would have been pursued,
th 4 After seven months delay, the Nettle Lord had given -He was convinced in his own mind that the terms of the
the I.,"thing but words. The Noble Lord had consulted motion were perfectly true, and he should be ashamed of
eetctro (officers of the Crown, and he knew-something of the himself when called on to give judginent-to say aye or no
totm_h law 'himself, for he had written a book on it, which -if he did not unhesitatingly pronounce an opinion in its
for`''
_r. Stanford) had read.--(A iaugfi. y. He was, there. favour. The Noble Lord at the bead of the Government, so
tni-Prised that he had taken the coursehe had done. If far back as the month of November last, published his
he p;:e gilt that the Pope had committed an aggression on famous letter. Parliament did not meet for three months
lima, ;.(i)gatives of our Sovereign, and upon the law of na- after. ,For three mote hs the Cabinet was employed in
con-
sroide, lich he undoubtedly had done, he might have paring a measure and it was submitted at last for the
Neer" the revival of an obsolete stante. After the as- sideration of Parliament. The Roman Catholic Irish Mem-
o. but",;(), of these titles, and the publication of the rescript berm no doubt, opposed it; but the minorit was the smallest
441 t y which they were conferred, he might have issued perhaps on record. A large majority sanctioned the propo-d
the ,e,_l9'lation, declaring the assumption of all such titles by sition, and the speech of the Noble Lord which introduce
ne,OOshlects of her Majesty, unlawful, prohibiting their use, it was perhaps the most eloquent he or any
.man ever
er"hielero the circulation or publication of any bulls, rescri delivered in that House on that pariicular subject. The
ou'li'd 4 decuroents of that nature. Such pa
proclamation House met eerlY in February, but before the end of that
(Ne Faye Caine. in support of the statute, and any sub-se- month the Noble Lord resigned his office, abandoned the Bill
pri,,,._ raction might have been punished with fine and im. and his Sovereign, for causes which were never fully ex-
et %rent. But he did not believe that any loyal subject Plainest ; but among which, as he (Mr. Bankes) understood,
them Majesty would have, after that warning, assumed that very Bill formed a portion. Perhaps the Noble Lord
klonoh He thought the terms of the motion of the would that night give a reason why, with a majority of 14, and a
Lotd arable Member for Stafford were quite correct. mi tority brought about by accidental circumstances, he
Of bildrelh Russell, ie his letter to the Bishop abandoned his Bill and his Sovereign who opened Point-
/hide ellanl, had produced expectations of legislation ment with the speech to which he had just alluded. As tO
ill „ Uad not been realized. The Noble Lord had also the question of majority or minority, there was a majority
that line
naile tithe r used language which could not but deeply the other night of 14 against him, and yet, instead of re-
Nit ;eelings of the members of the Roman Catholic signing, be still remained in office. He would tell his Hon
the i. • The terms " euperstiions mummeries,” though Friend the Member for the University of Oxford, that to
ticalif We Lord had had the good sense subsequently to oppose the present motion was not, therefore, to place the
kw, been
and explain them. *ere phrases which ought not to Bill in peril, because the Noble Lord having abandoned his
oe
`accounteen used, because we had no teght to insult any man Bill, could his Hon. Friend believe that any Minister who
(i of his sincerely entertained religious convictions, might come into office would not dare to bring it in, or
itleretar, hear.) He gave all credit to the tact of the Hon. introduce a better one.-( Hear, hear.) According to the
lie thuoer for Stafford, who had framed his motion so well that oath which he ( Mr. Bandies) had taken, he was bound to
it c„niught noGentleman could den the propositions vote for the Bill e a measure, it should be recollected, hich
tenuity The Noble Loki, no doubt, redied upon his in- was in its full Perfection when the Noble Lord left office,
to ni tact; and it was said that where it was passible since whose return it hail been emasculated, which led him
wrigglegieht in it was also posshie to wriggle out ; but, to believe it formed the main cause of his resignati --n. That,
ee
_ego the Node Lord credit for all the tact he possessed, however, would be a subject for discussion in Coeinitttee,
s, fen uld support the motion of the Hon. Member for when the Noble Lord would have to vote for the clauses he
theirllV., heestuse its propositions wereiudisputable. had himself originally proposed. Believing, as he did, that
"•INGLIS bad listened to the very last sentence of the fears of his Hun. Friend were visionary, he would not
raver Peech of the Hon. Membeerefor Reading, without dis-
helpblae Lim (Mr. Batikes) if he shraek not from
knowing
%tieing on what side he inten(°" t° vote- Whether the roposition of the Hon. Member for Stefford,
talledand Learned Gentleman was a Brahmin, or, as be had that the opinions it set forth were perfectly accurate.
literat lihnself, a Pariah, whether, like another Professor of Mr. PLUMPTRE would vote tor the motion that the
ping are, his works had gone throuh thirty editions. skip- Speaker leave the chair, and against the resolution of the Hon.
lthici'l3°T some_ expended 25 solid pounds on a pamphlet. of Gentleman, the Member for Stafford-because it seemed to
sit
co the
rbi PeOple of Etiglar,cl had the bad taste to buy only him they had quite enough of bandying words backward and
Alessi r'e-(Leughter)-whether he was consistent in ex- forward-and that the time for action had arrived.-(Hear,
end ag.hie confidence in the honesty of the Noble Lord, hear.) That was the feeling of the Protestant people of this
on a?iet finding fault with and voting against his policy - country. Therefore whether there was more or less in the
biogr these and other questions connected with the auto- proposition before the House- and it did not contain the whole
tooneaPhY of the Hon. Member-(A laugh) -he would not truth-he had not a shadow of doubt that the best course he
edii'ti.•He -would notice only one senteuce of the speech; in could pursue Was to vote against the motion of the Hun.
'notion the lioneurable and Learned Gentleman said if the Member for Stafford.--(Cheers.)
lltel°ein °f the Hon. Member for Stafford were carried it Mr. REYNOLDS observed that the Hon. Member who
et,ar. have no evil consequences in the country.--(Hear, just sat down used a phrase for which he was cheered by the
ellen), Nw, what was the effect of that motion. The Treasury benches-that in regard to this Bill of pains and
leo Im which the Speaker had to Put was, " that he do now penalties, the people of this country had exhibited great pa-
to a the chair." The amendment of the Hon. Member was tience. Did that mean that they were impatient ot all con-
the tit" out all the words after that, and to insert instead trol-that they were so anxious to forge manacles on ten
tioe tee lines moved by the Hon. Member for Stafford. As- millions of their fellow-subjects, of whom he was one-(A
oltuietttn for a moment that that amendment was unfertu. laugh) -that they had lost their patience? The Honouratale
oht;el3 carried, what would be Atte result? Was it of no Gentleman would allow him to say that, although three
reentecluence to the country contrary, the amend. months had elapsed since the Bill was introduced on the
Was would destroy the Bill: (Hear,? On the
hear.) The question • leth of February, it was very likely his patience would be
not whether the Bill was g(tod or bad. He believed it put to the test a little farther, for if he were not very much
Was
good su far as it went. It was not so good as it might mistaken, both himself and those who acted with him,
none been• He had hoped for a better, but when the clues. feeling it was an aggression on their creed, a declaration
itittwas taken, it would be whether they would go he Corne of war was determined to protect themselves in opposing
ee to amend it as tar as possible. and on that question he tha measure by every means in their power. He
Could have no hesitation in giving his vote against the (Mr. Reynolds) heard with great pleasure and con-
tretltnent -(Hear, hear.) Was there any one in that siderable pain the speech of his Noble Friend the
ee°llse who believed that no legislation on this subject would Member for Marylebone. Lie beard the sentiments he
bee' satisfactory to the great majority of the people ?--(Rear, expressed with pleasure, but he felt pain in hearing him
Cer.) On feel contrary, such a course would be hostile say it was no uie to oppose the present measure any
haetn to their ings and their judgment... The.
.Bill had f_urther, because tt was hopeless. He did not expect to
c en carried by repeated and increasing majorities; the hear such an opinion from a man who stood bywbthoerapiasetrdiutthice
'Ott was 394; the second 414, and the third was 434, while Poles in their hour of peril and of need-
''''' i'PPonents- had never mustered more than 90.-(Cries Polish standard when it was trampled in the gutter.-
tt
Of a Hesr' hear.") With the exception of the Honourable (Laughter.) He had been told by more than one Member
ember for Ripon, and the teentlemen who voted with him, that they would not vote for the Bill, because they were
and the Hon. Member for Dublin and hie friends, no Mem- sure to lose their seats. There were, however, two- Hon.tier
hadon that side of the House had voted against the Bill. He Gentlemen who voted and spoke against it, for which they
a high respect for the Hon. MeMbh• for Ripon, and the deserved-as they received-the thanks of every lover of
ttnl atlecnen who occupied thoSe` benches; but the members of civil and religious liberty in the United Kingdom. Those
t
, eie last Cabinet, the Irish brigade, and all the stray sun- Hon. Members, who represented Manchester, were told also
iZliteeere th -y could secure, never amounted-to more than 90. that they would lose their seats; and yet, when they went
monear, hear.) Well, then, were the people of England to among their constituents, and called a meeting during the
the head
now?-(Hear, hear.) To call on the Noble Lord et recess; when they declared they would rather lose their
iiite.t.ead of the Government to abandon allthat he had done seats than vote for the Bill, they were not only not
eote` Chia matter, was more than he hoped any o: his friends censured in that bee-hive of human industry, but
le ,t 4 assent to. But whatever they might de, his (Sir R. a vote of confi truce iu them was passed unanimously. They
tgdVtia's) course was clear:- (Hear, hear.) He now saw a may talk of their majority of 400; but if the ignorant, bi-
lllition in the hands of the Speaker, which, if ado tell goted, and fanatical portion of the people of England were to
vfe
healld annihilate the Bill, and therefore he most earnestly be respected, were not his Catholic countrymen entitled to
°Pod that the general way in which they had hitherto sup- some respect likewise? The Right lion. Gentleman the
retied the people of E- -gland oe this question would not now Secretary for the Elaine Department, in his eloquent speech
west Parted from by the supporters of the Bill. H 3 for one of that night, said that in Ireland the Catholic and Protestant
ell4tl not vote for the amendment of the Hon. Member fur hierarchy were side by side, and that, therefore, there wasb
a:rd, and he most earnestly hoped that his inetion would a difference between England and that country. He admitted
hob Jetted by a great majority, so as to leave the Bill of the there was a difference. but he applied the same Bill
Not
Lord undiminished in its provisions, and enable the to both, he (Mr. Reynolds) supposed in consequence of his
e . Lord te carry out his views, so as to call into exist- particular lova of uniformity. Au Irish patriot, whom the
gems 4 permanent resistance to Papal aggression, a permit- regretted not to see in his place, had said of him that he
at
Lsupport. to the Protestant Church iu this country. (Mr. Reynolds) had ventured to avow iu a society of English
Itc, °lll DUDLEY STUART said, that the speech of the gentlemen his determination to vote against the Government
buil. Baronet who had just, sat down, in favour of the Bill, on all questions. Ha (Hr. Reynolds) repeated the avowal
to t. altuoseconvinced hem that he ought to give his vote that from the period the publication of that letter, and
motion Of the Hon. Member or Stafford. the introduction of this Bill of pains and penalties against his
sbifilt regard to the resolution of the Hon. Member for creed, and tbe speeches, which were au aggravation of
ted .°Fili it appeared to him that it was a perfect truism, it, be not only appealed to them, but to the Catholics
: i:t,:t7ttefl:hhee childishneas to waste timedisputing it. of Ireland, in aleggregate meeting assembled on the 29t
lit: overnment, it was said, had given encouragement to ult., in he etunda at Dublin, with reference to
to,•e?"Pe to act as he had done, and no doubt that was this Bill, and to that of the Honourable Member
tt,-,- s"llie respects; but had not other Governments done for Bodiniii-the Religious Housethat aggregate
oe•Otaele thing ? To what had been stated in the diecussien meeting was convened by a n-quieition heving 1,400 siva-
of the question hi could add little; but as, at the beginning turee, amongst which were those of four Reman Catholic
himself eliseussion, he had not an epaortunity of expressing archbishops, twenty-three bishops, and one vicar capitular,
tea, he trusted the House would permit him now to ex- representing a see now vacant. Ho was signed aim) by
froesa his, views on the subject.-( Hear, hear.) He had, the Roman Catholic Members ot thatuse, and by 1.250 of
ie '" the first a great objection to this Bill, and very early the Catholic clergy and laity of Ireland. The resolutions
the , ,
Sun session had declared his decided repugnance to passed at that meeting were unanimously concurred in.
tile, egielation whatever on the subject. - (Hear, hear, from They might not vahte their opinions, perhaps, but they
to, °Pnonents of the Bill. ) He said that it should not be were the opinions, nevertheless, of seven millions of people
'Aired to be from any leaning towards the course of Ric combined against their Bill and themselves ( he Govern-
lvard"ai,e nor from any leaning towards those who leant to. meat).. Be had beard it said that what the Pope had done
aee,hesatotrianistn in disguise, and who were known as Pa- was an nsult to the Queen. Now he was not given to
417, ,73, that he was about to take the course that he had boasting, but he belt bound to say, that there was no part
The%Led out for himself. He hated all persons in disguise. of the United Kingdom where her Majesty's name was
Ire-
had remelt why he was opposed to the Bill was not, as he held in more affectionate remembrance than it wee in Ire-
CathalCeadY
, intimated, from any leaning towards the Roman land -C. , ear, hear)- and particularly by the Rumen Ca-
°licit. nor from any leaning to pseutlo-Roman Catholics, tbolies of Ireland. The Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
butreitgraurbhe was opposed to all interference with civil and vernment was running the risk of breaking up that affec-
kee, tut ' t erty-(Hear, hear)-and but that be had been tionate loyalty with which the Queen was there esteemed;
toll; away, from the House he sickness, he would have offered for whilst they were prepared to adhere to their allegiance,
e" hie most strenuous 'opposition before now. He con- even at the risk of their lives, :hey were prepared !le
;Weirgrl.don,thwabtictob interfere with any people in the exercise of the sacrifice their lives rather thin see their ancient
se, and daugerhoeuys.
believed_( to be true was most unjust, un- creed insulted.--( Bear, hear, and cheers.) The resolutions
Hear, hear.) He had his own opi- to which he adverted vi :Awed the can e ofreligious liberty
pions on matters of religious belief, acd he should say that and declared that the Ecclesiastical Titles Assumption Bill
the greatest benefit that could be conferree on menkiod was an intolerable vi.datioe of it.-- (Hear, hear.) Anu tar-
Would
übe in their conversion to Protestantisin.--(Hear, hear.) ther than that, they eeclared that opposition not only to the
Bat instead of taking the right course. they were doing the Bill itself,• but to the Administration by which it had been
eoi Teary, and were pursuing that which was opposed to all introduced. Now- need he blush for what lie had said ? If
r
gut. Let every man, he said, be free to exercise his retie he did, seven millions of people ought to blush with him, for
gl°n, and let them act upon the principle. "Do unto others they had endorsed his own opinions.-( Hear, hear.) The
as,ii you would be done by." - (Hear, hear.) With regard to Hon. and Veme able Baronet, who usually occupied the place
t einsult which it was said had been offered by the Pone, he he then sat in, celled his party in the House "the brigade,"
must say it, assumed that character, and was introduced with and himself the leader et it. To that charge he pleaded riot
all the paraphernalia of offensiveness. It did, in his opinion, guilty. He was not the lead: r, but he was one of their body,
constitute an insult to the nation and the S ivereignof the ; -and he would say that it had only combined to protect itseif
nation ; -and he was quite satisfied that the Poe had been against aggression. They niaintained a state religion la
induced to resort to the step by those who were-the known Ireland, which seven minimised' Roman Catholics, out of a
"enemies of this country, and who
wished to " throw the population of eight mi lens, bowed to in submission. • They-
*Pile of discord," and did throw it in amengst them. The iorpced the majority li,upp.rt the. creed of the minority, and
"U.-knew-that Austria had advised Runge in this business. and althoueh they (the Catholics) yielded with Curirien tor-
"hey saw that in the Pope's Pasteral letters much of the po- bearance, they would not let them alone, but passed a Bill,
Yof Austria was expressed. They could see also what the by whet it Dr. Murray should sign his name to a priest's
Policy of.,Russia was in this business. Recollect the feel- appointment. he - would be fined lON., and in default
,
•ngs with. which he had always viewed those Governments. be sentenced to the common felons' gaol.
and how be had -always denounced them trlieevneenvehr6hoebihecad. Bat he (Mr. Reynolds) doubted very much whether the
the 0_
see them m 1 • Bill le -5• Lord Stanley had said were he in power he
pportunity, and he was not surprised to
et • would pAs. . .
, in the s•ep taken by the Pope; but his attachment to would endeavour to pass a resolution condemning the aggres-
dling
.e.`Vil and religious liberty was greater than -
(t0n..1 shin, and then he would get a Select Committee to inquire
this
to host powers. Yet be was sure that the people
of I into the reletione subsisting between Roman Catholics and
-47eiacountry-w- would rise up, if necessary, as one
iitell, to ;the State Ihe N -dile Lord at the head of the Gee/eminent
govert ally insult that might be) offered to their
dif it were .- acious i having slid,"we must do something," although Honeurable
ttlatv
,elgreby any power- (Hear -an
C ueserec, i Gentivilleit on his (Mr. Reynoles's) side of the H ;use said,
tow lion that would invade the prerogative of th
toe !I ;They ire doing not ranee". a td the Hon. Baronet who usu-
some ho,ththen he should say they ought to have recoursed Bit ' '
a,y occupied that place said. '•it, is a goo i -tt is net so
our. e; Meansthe melancholy, paltry, abortive inea. !
. • good -a Bill as I could wish; but still it is a good Bill." It
ell. -
bw:naw.xurse.aa:bathde. Bei:el:on:tithe Roman Catholics, or else it would not
tees to remove the now before the than House to repel it. Ile said that th
Coarse
%poshould be in such a case, to send a fleet to Enforce au
(Cite got " good a iianle iron the Protestant watch-dog.-
IL__ logy from the Pope.-(Hear.) -But the step taken by the
ers and taughter.) He would implore of the .Nohle Lord,
was
this not
pavee was one which showed bun ready to exercise spiritual I n,
our
Nobleto L withdrawoidfroihnisoßdiiel
the er' "4
where I should o
ame the • had sent a orce erectile. was a declaration
.all Popes had ever shor themselvei ready.to. dolt 1
el., tut e as
.on of war against his country and religion, he
the Pope, lig. No doubt if thee.
oppose it.
froneßhme,
They I Mr. SPOON ehe they *mild drive hlut away
b was_ at that moment kept by foreign bayonets.
ah sent a fl.why not send one to Rome?. her who said -the ado • , ,
t'elliett h. eet:to Greece, and
the weak, let them not the Bill. They
were
mum or this resolution would destroy
succu It; -ear.)Whilst they coerced .
to adopt ' conduct of this ti only called upon to declare that the
111 to the st • but they had no occasion , 3an other Giv
any suchrong,
,one-had been Pope. lie could not ret ern-fleas had encouragAl the
offer: ceurse because an insult-if it was
dby Sovereignla_ ; .
At . use to etfirtn that resolution, because
and he said that the it was true. the seine th
better coarse who was weak,
f dealing with ;had no sympathy with the tine he wished to state that he
it thane th
would. he .t take another _course o
__ ,
Hear, i who eistech 0
brought it fortverd, n • . t she Hon. Gentleman
oear.) al of legielation, which would not succeed.-(
The • i Undoubtedly they thought or with those who supported it.
thorffir y might by their legislate • ' 'on prevent Roman Ca- they would destro the Bill, but
- tshops from • o I title. but i hey could ihe oti the 'contrary considered that it • y .
not prevent, Lssummg territoria tit. lea,
-because t•
h 't over ; n- would teach a lesson to mould strengthen it,
their people) . them from exetcising spiritual aut on y .
'those they sought to conciliate wouldthe Government, that
but he As a Protestant, he rejoiced in his religion; 1 . ..ot be satisfied. No
Could do otherwise than
whose could gtve no suitport or countenance to a measure 1 Ministry eo an go on with the Bill. If the
• d,
religious object. was to interfere with the principle of civil and ; present Government resigned. another would he found which
coarse
liber;y...-111
•-eart hear.) He was aware that the ! would bring in a more stringent Bill. Ile saw no Cnger in
whic,hhe was takin • 0 la- with the great the delay, but great daeger in refusing to affirm the resole-
body
g was unp pu , .
of the const't • Wi•h these views he should vote in support
!tenting • hut h i uency which he had the honour of tepee- thin. t rt of the
long before . e - had determined. on taking that course, ' amendment. .
LL-I should
able ore he had heard the speeches of the Right Honour- I• • Lord J. RUSSELL--I hardly have thought it
Baronet Members
the Member
Zsioners of that House. On the very second day of the sibie that some part of the House at least may he mimed
of on the report on the Address, he took the liberty : -by the statemeut which fell front so distinguished a3l :tuber
ject statingwere,
to. the -House what his opinions on this - sub- ,of the House as the Hon. Member for leorsetshire. The
re, and of
ton u expressing his opposition to any legisla- t Hon. Member said, " Hera is a proposition laid before the
__era. pon it.' . Tbe Hon, Baronet the Member for the Uni- I House, and lam obliged to say 'aye or no' to that proposi-
tvi.v.sithYbof Oxford bad said that, whenever there was a 1 tion." Now, nothing can be a more mistaken view of the
division
of the
Bill,
there. had. been immense majorities in , question.-(hear, bear.) The real question is one_ of a
Dudley Stuart)'the- Bill ; but that did itoeto influenr•%i him (Load totally diffe ant nature. Tee real question is this-e Bill is
Ne. He had
hi the Course WhiCh lie thou ht right to Pure ! introduced by the Ms:inhere Of the Government, and which,
which he had PreClaitned his opinions, , Uninfluenced, by any ' upon its second reading, -neat with the support of a very
the me. ad'-heand extirtisOetlon•iliis Bill, -rid seeing that large majority-upwards of 430. I believe, to 90. Tne
to himtri,tiee were s formidable he favoUr of it, a appealed Reuse havieg thus approved or the second reeding of this
Ile wi.4,°e,ohely a waste of time to be still discussing it, and i _Bill, it. is now proposed, in the usu,.l- course of our proceed-
ome :en the lion. Members, neeing that that :WAS the_ age, to ge into Lo s Lilmittee upon the Bill, and the regular
7'. s. "v" Tfitildritne all forthto a opposition the Bill, aid 1 clueNtical il) Mimed "that the Speaker do Dow leave the

chair;" upon which en Hon. Member gets up and moves a
vote of censure upon the Government, which. as he says, will
sweep awn) the bill and the Government; and Eton. Gentle-
men who,supported the Bill -on the second reading take od-
a-ante-go-of this paltry and shabby proceeding-(Hear,
hear) - to vote against a Bill which on the sec old reading
they had supported.-(Hear, hear. ) Sir, the bare technical
(-potion will not be to affirm or to deny the . propuiition of
the Hon Member for Stafford. The reonlar motion is, that
yo now leave the ch,,ir, and the.questioil you Will have to
Put those w,r,ls stand part of the question. so that,
hart: :..,0 tl,e least finaud at Hu for' saying that the Hon.
me•int,er is obliged, it tie approves of that proposition, and
thinks it trua, to vote against the motion.--(Rehr.) his
the reverse ot accurate, and it is quite astonishing that an
II:so and Learned Member ot his experience should be thus
lows, . Well, then with less authority, at an earlier part of
the evening, the Noble Lord the Member fur Colchester
says t hat it is quite impossible that he can refuse his assent
to that pOrposition-that it is merely a proposition that
'wo and two make four, sad that ha cannot possibly deny
it. I roosliy think that the Noble Lora is not in such a di-
lemma as he seems to suppose he is, because, with
regard to any other Bill that lie:was favourable to, suppos-
ing that identical proposition to be made, and an Hon.
'.:Oernbes were to rise and were to say. " Before the
Speaker leaves the chair I have a curious arithineocal
proposition to lay before the House, that two and two
snake four," would the Noble Lord say, " I shall not think
it necessary to discuss that proposition. If anybody can
bring any arguments against it, let ' hlm do so, but that
arithmetical , proposition most be discussed before we can
posaibly think of going into Committee."-- ( Hear, hear, and
laughter. )' Such, Sir, I say is the unfounded excuse for
giving a vote for this amendment; but the Hon. Member for
Dorsetshire, and lastly 'he Hon. Member for Warwickshire,
give an explanation which must be highly edifying t) those
Members who think they are going lo get rid of the Bill by
means of this proposition. They say, 6‘ To be sure, this
is a vote of censure upon the Government, and no Govern-
ment can remain in office with such a vote of censure ;" but
then you'll have a batter Govea onent and bettar Bill.-(A
laugh.) You'll get a better 801, and the Hon. Member for
\Varaicksbire delights' ih that anticipation-(" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Spooner)-a better. Bill; in his sense of the word,
being of course what those other Hon. Gentlemen would re-
gard as more stringeot, more penal, and more persecuting.-
(Hear, hear.) Well, then, what is the proposition which they
way is so valuable that it is quite impossible to pass it by? ft
is this-"Tnat the recent act of the Pope in dividing Eng-
land into dioceses and appointing bishops thereto was en-
couraged by the conduct and declarations of her Majesty's
Government." Now, Sir, the Hon, Gentleman who spoke
last said that those words-and I suppose he has some au-
thority for that interpret tinn-apply indeed to the present
Government, and also to preceding; Governments. Then I
think I understand a little better what it is now proposed to
affirm: It is, that all the conduct of recent Governments
with respect to Roman Catholics has been erroneous; that
those measures of fairness, of liberality, of justice. as I think
them, were totally erroneous, and have led to this aggression.
Now, Sir, I totally deny that proposition, and I totally deny
also that the conduct of recent Governments, or of the present
Goveromint, has been legitimately the cause of the present
Papal aggression ; for, Sir, I should say according to all the
usual motives of action (unless you suppose that there was
same peculiar meanness and unworthiness in those who ad-
vised the See of Rome upon this occasion), that if a Govern-
ment treated the Roman Catholics .with indulgence-if they
were disuhsed to listen to any of their grievances, and
to obtain, if possible, a remedy for those grievances, that so
tar from that being a reason for throwing every insult upon
the Crown of the country-so far front its being a reason
for attempting, against the consent of the Government,
to establish titles and dominion in this country, it
would, on the contrary, be a reason for the head of
a body which was thus treated to pay some deference to the
Goveininent which had been thus libersl towards them, to
consult them, if necessary, and, at all events, not wantonly
to insult mid exasperate the country, the Government of
which had behaved to them in a friendly mantles.. - (Cheers.)
Now, Sir, I be'Lve that I should be (Listing a very unjust
impute ion upon the Pope if I were to say that his conduct
had been actuated by motives different from this, and that
every act of indulgence and liberality had only tenSed to
provoke him to aggtassiori and insulo I think I should be
accusing him of moot unworthy motives were I to say so.
What I d believe is, that the acts of the present and former
Government* have not been at all the cause of the present
aggression.-(Hear, hear.) lam ready to defend the con-
duct of those with whom i have acted during the time I
have been in Parliament, and ot those who preceded me, and
who acted in a manner ti rest( re the Roman C itholic rights
of which they were deprived at that. time without justice.-
(Hear, hear.) All that conduct of 24 years, from lalos to
1a29, and of s 2 years, from )829 to the present time-all
that policy of conciliatien towards the Roman Catholics has
bestir, I believe, a wise policy, and I sun not disposed to de-
part in any degree from the defence of that policy.-(Hear.)
But, Sir, •I do believe that this aggression has been part and
parcel of a great plan which is aimed against civil and reli-
gious liberty in every country in Europe.-(Great cheering.)
I believe that, whether the Government of this country had
been favourable to Roman Catholics or unfavourable to
them, in the present circumstances of the world this attempt
would have been:male, and 1 feel the more secure in resist-
ing this aggression, because I can say that there was nothing
in the conduct of the Govarnmerot to which I belo :g, or in
the conduct of the Govei-nment which immediately preceded
us, and nothing in our conduct as a party out of office, which
tended in any way to provoke or to make us justly liable to
this aggression.-(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for
Dublin speaks as if everything were perfectly quiet and un-
urbed, and all persons were living in harmony, until we
provoked an outcry and introduced the present Bill. He
must recollect that we on our sides were totally guiltless of
any act which could be styled persecution or enmity against
Roman Catholics. On the contrary, the only political at-
tacks which were made upon us were on account of too
much favour shown by us to the Roman Catholica; and at
that period there arrived that famous rescript, not excited or
invited by us, but which came into this country and was thus
the cause of the exasperation that ensued.-(Hear, hear.) It
was not, therefore, any aggression or any act upon our part.
It was the act of those who advised that aggression, and we
know now, by t.stimony which is to be believed in this
matter, by the testimony of the Earl of Shrewsbury, that
those who were in the habit of advising the Pope were
known enemies of England. We know. likewise?, from
other information, that about the time when that rescript
was promulgated it was said, and said by persons who had, I
suppose, good reason for saying so, that a measure was being
adopted which would set all England in a flame, anti create
great disturbance among the people of the United Kingdom.
Wull, I believe that was the object, and 1 believe it was to
counteract the liberal influence of this country in Europe,
and to enforce the views and plans of those who cannot bear
the progress of c:nstitational freedom(Cheers)-I believe
it was for that purpose that an aggression was framed
which might disturb the miiid of England, and excite a dif-
ference between the people of England and of It'eland.-,.
(Hear, hear.) I am unwilling to enter into the details of
the Bill. but the Hon. Member for Dublin has made repre-
sentations so much at valance with the fact that I cannot
but take some notice of them, tor he sa3s that we :prohibit
Irish bishops front taking their titles, that they have a right
to take their titles, and that we now propose by a Bill to
prohibit them. Now, is it not the case-I certainly believe
it is-that most of the Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland in
their relations with the clergy assume the same sees which
are likewise the sees slid dioceses of prelates of the Protes-
testant Established Church; and, if that be the case, here is
an Act which was framed in the 10th year of George IV.,
which says that if any person after lie commencement of that
Act, other than the person thereunto authorized by law, shall
assume or use the name, style. or title of archbishop of any
province, bishop of any bishopric, or dean of any deanery, in
England or Ireland, he shall for every such offence forteit
and pay the sum of 100/.- (I leer.) There is the Act which
applies to Ireland. It is not aBM introduced now for the
fir st time; but it is an Act existing upon your statute-hooka.
And yet the lion. Member for Dublinoand almost every one
who speaks out that side of tha House, talk as if this was a
ro easto eof legislation introduced now for the first time!
Why, !hey have been living wider it since 1829, arid yet
!bey come forward now and characterise otoi Bill we have
introduced L a one of persecution and penalty such as never
had been thought of before (Hear, hear.) What, we at-
tempt to meet, and what I think we are bound to attempt
to meet, is the assumption of titles, and the assumption of
power to govern certain districts of England, in conse-
quence of a certain rescript from the Pope of Rome-(Hear,
near) and, had it not been for that'reacript, I myself
should have been perfectly s itialied. with the existing state
of the law in Ireland.- (Hear, hear.) . I do not
think it doubtful that any question as to the case oft he
Arch bishop of Tuam, or the Bishop of Galway, at
could have been raised would. hive been met by the jus-
tice of the case, and that the administration of the law
might have been safely left in the same manner in which
it has been lett since 1829.-(Hear, bear.) But it was
the attempt to assume tilleS in England, to assume to rule
and govern certain districts in England, and virtually
to assume a temporal sovereignty that cannot be carried into
effact without the consent tit the :Sovereign of the realm-it
was this that made legislation necessary.-(Hear.) Now, I
wish to explain the reason why I think the House cannot
vote on the assumption of the Hon.. and Learned Member for
Dorsetshire, that there is a proposition before them that
they must either affirm or deny. It is not, as I apprehend,
necessary either to affirm or deny that proposition.-(Hear,
hair.) If they choose to act in contbrmity with their
former vote they will go into the consideration of this Bill,
discuss its clauses, and examine its proiisions; but if, on
the contrary, they wish to take this opportunity of coming
to a vote of censure ag in it the Government, let them take
that opportunity it they will; but do not let th:in say they
are under any obligation to do so.-(Hear, hear.) On the
contrary, I should have said that the fair course would have
been, if they thought it necessary to move a vote of censure,
which, according to the Hon. Member for Warwickshire
(Mr. Spooner), includes all the measures with regard to
Roman Catholics that have for many years been carried into
execution by successive Governmentoo-if that be their in-
tention, their batter course would have been 'to bring forward'
a subalautive proposition for the consideration of the House.
-(Cheers.) As it is at present, all those who are opposed
ttohetmhieseßlvielsl,waitllivhoetesewmiethtitmhee,mitoshignega
toritmi of
flte the Bill
theßill
stringent, or to introduce another Bill with severer provi-
sions.-( Hear, hear.) If they choose to take that course,
morethey
undoubtedly it is in their power to do ao, but I do not think
that that is such a course as the people ot England expect
them to take.- (Cheers.) I think they expect that, what-
ever may be our party alifferences, the proceeding with this
Bill is not the proper.occasion to exhibit those differences-
(Cheers)-but that we ought rather to turn our attention,
after. the second reading of the measure, to devise those mea-
sures that may be necessary for the sacurity of the Crown
and the security of the nation.-(Cheers.) Whether or not
the present provisions are sufficient or insufficient is another
question. All we can du is to introduce such a measure as we
'think will be sufficient for the purpose. I would not go one
inch beyond the necessity of the case, because I wish, while
resisting aggression, to maintain that religious liberty whic
I hope will never be lost in this country.-(Cheers.)
Mr. DISRA.ELI-The Noble Lord has correctly placed
before the House the form in which this question will now be
put. He has said there is no necessity to give any opinion
on the aueenlmeut proposed by the. Hon. Member for Staf-
ford; and the statement of the Noble Lord, so far as regards
the forms of the House, cannot be controverted. But the
amendment is, to express it briefly, that the recent act of the
Pope was encouraged by the conduct and declarations of her
Majesty's Government,---4 very important assumption,' a
statement I have virtually made myself often and often in
this House in the course of these discussions, and a statement
that months sgo I expressed in a letter to my eonstitue Oa.-
( Hear, hear.) Now, when a gentlem .n not connected with
me or my friends near me is any political way places that
statement before the House, if I were to take advantage of
the plea of the Noble Lord, and say that by the forms of the
House. I was not bonnd to give any opinion on the question,
un this olceaceanonnotthsaht.rinlk
have
em
I think I should be taking a mean and shabby course. -
(Cheers.) If this issue is placed before me I cannot
avoid giving an opinion on the subject.-(Cries of " Hear,
ess consideration, I attemptedexpressingcannotla.
on other occaa'
Govern-
ment, a ter giving
lona in the • course of the session,
and which, front
my ee
to ane
conscience
ns :ee opinion
ne
establish
the accuracy
all I have heard from the Govern-
to their statements and their arguments
anyte Teton to doubt
true, In is it uot true, that 'the - •
aggression of the Pope hag
of.-(Hear, hear. y Is it