The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-22 00:00:00

what they did last year. The Noble Lord was sometimes
rash, and displayed- that in inducing them to pass that
resolution, the effect of which was to throw the measure
back which he was desirous to advance. They said they
were acting on a scrupulous acquiescence with the law.
But were they always so anxious to do so?
Did not the Noble Lord consider that the people of this
country- would attach much blame to him, particularly when
his own constituents consider that they are wronged by not
havirg their due number of representatives? And also when
the intelligent constituents of Greenwich are labouring under
a similar disadvantage. He would ask, has not two branches
of the Legislature approved of such a measure, he meant the
Queen and this House?— (Cries of " Order, order.") Yes,
be said that the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell), as First
Minister of the Crown, bad always approved of the admis-
sion of members of the Jewish persuasion who had been
fairly elected. But he regretted to say that a third branch
Marred the efforts of the other branches. He also di4ap-
proved of the oaths taken by Members, for such oaths never
tended to increase the allegiance of the people in their
attachment to the Throne and their respect for the laws.
He therefore hoped that the Noble Lord would, ere long,
remove such useless and unnecessary oaths as those taken
by Members of the House. —(Hear, hear.)Mr. NEWDEGATE—He thought that the House should
look to the manner of the Jewish aggressien.—(Hear, hear.)
Yes; did not Alderman Salomone arrogate to himself the
right to occupy the seat he now holds? Can there be any
order in this House when his very first act was a violation
of order ? How could the Speaker protect the order of the
House if such proceedings were connived at, or in the least
sanctioned ?—(Hear, hear.)
RMr. J. EVANS thought it unjust and injudicious that the
ouse of Commons should set itself in opposition to two very
borough of Greenwich. Was it not well known that the city
of London has been for the last four years deprived of one-
fourth of its representatives? And how long, he would ask,
was such to be tolerated?—(Hear, hear.) Lie had to com-
plain of the inconsistency of the House of Commons in its
decision relative to Baron Rothschild, while the same House
admitted Mr. Pease, without taking any oath whatever.
He entertained not the shadow of a doubt that the opinion
of the Solicitor-General was perfectly right when he said
that such a mode adopted towards any Member—when it
bad the force of binding the conscience of the individual,
like the oath proposed by Alderman Salomons—would be
quite sufficient. He admitted that there was a difference of
Opin on between the Attorney and the Solicitor-General, and
for that reason he thought that the difference should be ar-
b~ged in a court of law, and not in that House.—(Hear,
r') He also considered that a native Jew was as much
Privileged to have a seat in the House as any other subject.
Colonel THOMPSON must take the liberty to ask whe-
ther the framer of this oath of abjuration had anything
else Y:t View than to bind the consciences of all subjects to
itilliarn 111. instead of James II.; but it could not be
said that it was intended against the Jews, either then or
no,,ve.—s(Hear, hear.)
eArr. CROWDER said the real question the House was
b--er"efd uPon to decide was, whether the Hon .urable Mem-
-or Greenwich had taken the oath of abjuration in terms
of the statute. In deciding that question they must do so
Li judges but he thought, fromithe manner in which this discussion'had been carried on, that they had not adhered
l'erY Strictly to that rule.—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry
hettha the lawyers in the House disagreed on the subject, but
for one was of opinion that the Hon. Member for Green-
Wich had not taken the oath of abjuration, as required by
the Act of Parliament. —Olean ) He was, moreover, of opi-
nion that the Honourable Member for Abingdon had taken a
tight view of the subject when he said that the words " on
the true faith of a Christian" could not be omitted, except
by. Act of Parliament. This was evidently the intention of
the Acts of Parliament passed upon the subject, and he did
not see in the present ease how they could get over it. But
there was, besides this, a decision of their own precisely in
Writ, and how were they to get over that? It had been
said that there was nothing in the precise language of the
resolution of last session which could exclude the Honourable
Member for Greenwich from taking his seat, but that reso-
lution was passed under exactly the same circumstances as
ththose now under the consideration of the House, and was
erefore applicable to the case. He was not supporting the
ath of abjuration as being reasonable at the present day,
but he said this, that they could not get it dispensed with,
except they passed an Act of Parliament for the purpose of
repealing it; and until that was done they must abide by it.
Mr. MUNTZ had always voted in favour of the admission
of Jews into Parliament, because when he saw them ad-
mitted into all municipal offices he did not see the consist-
ency in keeping them out of Parliament. The resolution of
last session could not stand as it was, unless they admitted
the Jews into Parliament; and therefore he would, as he
bad done on all former occasions, give his vote in favour of
the admission of the Jews.
Mr. WAWN also supported the motion amid loud cries of
Divide," amidst which
Mr. J. A. SMITH rose and said that it seemed the House
Was desirous of deciding on the subject; he was authorised
to state, on behalf of the Honourable Member for Greenwich,
that although he had, in virtue of what he considered his
right, taken his seat in that House, he would not vote on the
iiiitefrlesenL question, being one which was so personal to him-
Ile, however, refrained from doing so, simply on that
ground, and without relinquishing any f the privileges
which he possessed as a Member of that House.—( Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Member would, therefore, now that a di-
vision was to take place, withdraw, protesting, at the same
time, that he was still a Member of the House.
Mr. Alderman SALo3toNs then bowed to the Speaker,and
withdrew amidst considerable laughter from the Opposition
benches.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 81
Against 229
The amendm Mority —entaj was consequently lost. -148
Duri
Speak ng Our absence from the gallery, we understand the
tilel
na ier Put the resolution proposed by Lord John Russell,
drawY,gat the Hon. Member for Greenwich should with-
Hore.m" e'en the doors were opened we observed that the
foiled "3tnber for Greenwich was not in his place, and we
Mr
s, 7ssSTEY addressing the House, amidst loud cries of
bet:a' and other unmistakable symptoms of impatience.
l eied they were there to try a solemn question—to hear
or ince-23 of an important question, and not to decide rashly
to de oesiderately, when the effect of that decision would be
Jorive an Hon. blember of his seat. the be
Salotnons here entered the House, and walked by
of,c'ettoisterial benches. He was received with loud cries
ci,e,e Withdraw, withdraw!" but he treated them with in-
in'ut rence, and continued proceeding towards his seat. The
increased by the Hon. Member, contrary to the rules of the
°llse LakinSpeak'g up his position between r. Anstey and the
WI, el'. This led to cries of 'Oder," and " Withdraw."
eat aen. the Hon. Member discovered his mistake he quietly,
set-e_b"rrt between the Master of the Rolls and Mr. M Cul-
f rhit• AeNSTEY was hanpy to find that the Hon. Member
tnri Greenwich had returned of his place.—(oh, oh, and
ze,,shaso!: " Withdraw.) He hought the Hon. Member
the—g Yielding to extreme delicacy—(L.aughter)—before
question was put. He thought. it was the duty of
9nestino. Gentleman to suppress all feeling on the present
ef °n, on which the fate of his seat was to be decided, for
the e House had the power to order him to withdraw, it hade
i'etwer to unseat him, and to order a new writ. for.Greoton:
peten_ He should on the present question consider his c
tolera
tilos eY, and sit there and vote, and leave the question to
7-ho, whether by reason of intolerance, or worse feel-
_or he called concession to intolerance worse tha.norinty-
agai nee itself—but contributed to swell the ma j
was
that nst hint. The question before the House now
A the Hon. Member he ordered to withdraw. He (Mr.
tiinteY) had to ask the House, when they carried that mo-
wit'', Whether it was intended that the Hon. Member should
wkhdrave from the House altogether, or only leave his seat?
keuele the next question was put, namely, that for the Hon.
Zilpet.ber'e contumacy in disobeying the orders of the
at- t'' he be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-
tit eftle--tvhen that question, which Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
1/eiready anticipated with cheers of frenzied delight, was
1114---it would be for some Hon. Member to move —indeed,
en„the absence of a more qualified person he would himself
b'N'e —that the Honourable Member be heard in person or ex counsel against that sentence —(Oh, oh.) It would be
tee the house to consider to what part of the chamber they
the
order the Honourable Member to withdraw. Even in
ne present temper of the House he did hope that no gen-
w'lettan would refuse the Honourable Member for Green-
ich an opportunity of being heard. He (Mr. Anstey)
44d move that the Honourable Member be heard in
place but if there were any present who thought that in
the '
face of an order from the Speaker, directing him to
Psithdraw, he should not address the House from his place,
..nrlle would ask, was it the intention that he should be heard
e the place allotted to strangers ?—(oh, oh.) Then he
ZeLed Honourable Gentlemen to point out any passage in
Vt" Lie? Act of Parliament that justified them in adopting so
reme a course. There was nothing in any Act of Par-
,anient that did not entitle the Honourable Member to be
ripe
his place. The question before the House was not
ele for decision, and he thought the safest course for the
b Noble Lord at the head of the Government to adopt would
to
to move for a Select Committee, and refer the question
thedc)ei consideration of that tribunal before it was further
jeemet!d, It was not too much to ask the House to post-
Vier its It
until next session, as the Noble Lord the
tp.;ll,ll.3sestahlinister of thelCrow Crown, had asked the House to post-
--e decision of Baron Rothschild's case from, the. last to
Sege
eeeght
sa .opTpohretaHnoitnyouroafblaeppMeeamliobger
tfoor Greenwich only
olanwly,
they refused, without hearing
4.,eig 'without information and without
him—without hTeahr;
leonourable Membeadjourned,r Concluded by moving thaetxtn.haesedebate be
its that justice could not otherwise
.b.e done.
Which
J. RUSSELL could not agree to that proposition, for
ier!'eeh indeed no reasons had been given.—(Hear, hear )
.lth respect to the motion before the House, he thought the
the Hon' ought to come to a decision upon that question, whe-
w:
stiboa. Gentleman should withdraw.—( Hear. hear.) . It
Ilimile"ris (Lord J. Russell's) intention to make a motion
et in terms to the resolution passed last year in the case
vaLtSron Rothschild ; but he did not wish that the House
come to any immediate decision upon that question,
cfesue should be ready to take that motion next day, leaving
fiel for gentlemen to consider what course they might think
Ihotci'oad°PL—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the immediate
n. the House was in a state to decide upon that. The
_to Gentleman said that the llon. Member for Greenwich
should not withdraw if the House cams to a resolution that
te
asshould ; the only precedent he (Lord J. Russell) found
gwith regard to Sir William Wyndham. It appeared by
_e,4oUr.nals that there being words of his in the House found
fl_L';'t with, he was ordered to withdraw, which he refused to
Atljt_nd a motion being made, and the question put, "that
ety• Wyndham do now withdraw," the House divided :
w4Bs, 206 ; noes, 127. The entry then was—" So it
0 resolved in the affirmative, and he withdrew
acisrdinglY•"—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord John Rus-
i__ce conceived that that was only paving a proper re-
eteuta o the House.—(Hear, hear.) Sir W. Wyndham was
p:.doubted Member of the House, and had spoken in his
aek,eh declined to withdraw upon the order of the
Withdre
but upon the reeolut on of the House he immediately
Hear.) Of course, if the Hon. Member for
Greee„,,7l7C
.did not pay that respect. to the House other mea-
be taken.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") But
the
er e(BQL ir
es
Russell) should hope that when the authority of
teseeePeaker had been affirmed by a resolution of the House
le would be no hesitation in withdrawing.(H.
Lear
rireee HALL was understood to recommend theear)
n an
adieu d Member (Mr. Anstey) to withdraw his motion ford
der
,AZe nment, and let the House come to some decision.
th_r a few words from Mr. WAWN, who spoke from un-
Ty, and amidst expressions of impatience,
HedOUSE said he thought the Hon. Member for
k,9r_n'awich would weaken his case if he did not rise in his
.ble;s.ndt(Astaltaeu,ghho.wever shortly, the course he meant to
) He had claimed the right to sit and
right to vote, but ho had not claimed his right to speak
bi.owe House.—(Hear, hear.) What he should say was for
that n
he ierisideration—(A. laugh)poesibly he might say
lianould withdraw in deference to the expressed opinion
of the
House.—(Her, hear.)
//o,‘.Alderman SALOMONS, who was sitting in the
the"„; pon the front bench on the Ministerial side, below
Wito.42:ViraY, immediately rose ; he was at first received
414 " Withdraw y from the Opposition benches,
949171104 lb§ 10114 glum with which

THE

he was supported. He sp, ke, firmly and deliberately, as
follows I should not have presumed to address you,
'ir, and this House, in the peculiar position in which I am
placed, had it not been that I have been so forcibly ap-
pealed to by the Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down.
—(Hear, hear.) I hope some allowance will be made for
the novelty of my position, and for the responsibility that I
feel in the unusual course which I have judged it right to
adopt—(Hear, hear)—but I beg to assure you, Sir, and this
House, that it is far from my desire to do anything that
may appear contumacious or presumptuous.—(Hear, hear.)
Returned, as I have been, by a large constituency, and
under no disability, and believing that I have fulfilled all
the requirements of the law, I thought I should not be
doing justice to my own position as an Englishman or a
gentleman, did I not adopt that course which I believed to
be right and proper, and appear on this fieor—(Hear, hear)
—not meaning any disrespect to you, Sir, or to this
House—(Hear, hear)—but in defence of my own rights
and privileges, and of the rights and privileges of
the constituents who have sent me here. ( Hear.)
Having said this, I beg to state to you, Sir, that
whatever be the decision of this House, I shall abide
by it, provided there be just sufficient force used to make me
feel that lam acting under coercion. Ish all not now further
intrude myself upon the House, except to say!that I trust
and hope that, in the doubtful state of the law, such as it
has been described to be by the eminent lawyers who ad-
dressed you, no severe measures will be adopted towards me
and my constituents, without giving me the fairest opportu-
nity of addressing the House, and stating before the House
and before the country what I believe to be my rights and
the rights of my constituents.—( Hear, hear. I believe the
House never will refuse what no Court ever refuses to the
meanest subject in the realm, bat will hear me before its
final decision is pronounced.—( Much cheering.)
Mr. BRIGHT thought the Noble Lord must feel that the
case presented itself in a less clear shape than it did at first,
and that the House should not further that night, after two
or three divisions, and under some excitement, commit itself
to any course by any further resolution. It would be as well
for the House to review the proceedings, and consider what
must be the inevitable termination of the matter— ( Hear)—
and for the Noble Lord to reconsult the law officers of the
Crown, and reconsider the question.—(Hear, hear.) The
judicious and temperate address of the Hon. Member—
(Hear, hear)—made this claim all the stronger.
Sir D. L. EVANS supported this appeal. He had ob-
served, and with no surprise, the more sober countenances
assumed by gentlemen opposite since they had heard what
had been addressed to the House in the course of the debate.
It was to be regretted that the other branch of the Legisla-
ture had set itself against the opinions of great constituencies.
Let not this House follow that course.—(Hear, hear.) The
termination of this contest could not be long delayed. The
country would sympathize with the Hon. Gentleman, and
acknowledge that it was he who was contending for the just
rights of the people, and the House that was disregarding
them.— (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the Hon. Member for
Greenwich had spoken so temperately upon this occasion
(Hear, hear)—that he regretted if he was not able to
comply with any request which might seem favourable to
his being fully heard.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the
question itself, he had stated that he proposed to postpone
the consideration of it till the next day. If the House should
think—he confessed he ( Lord J. Russell) did not—that the law
was at all favourable to him, and that he ought to take his
seat, they would come to a resolutiou upon it, and then the
Hon. Member would be fully entitled to come into the House
and take his seat. But he must own that, after the Speaker
had ordered a Member to withdraw, and had appealed to the
House whether or no they would support his authority—
(Hear, bear)—he really did not see how be could possibly
consent to adjourn the debate.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared
to him that the House must decide upon this matter (Hear,
hear )—leaving comple ely untouched the question whether
they should next day come to a resolution conformable to
the case of Baron Rothschild, or whether they should think
fit to reverse that decision.
Mr. B. OSBORNE would be the last man to do arirthin,b
contrary to the respect due to the Speaker, but there were
rights superior to his, and injustice must not be committed be-
cause he had pronounced that a gentleman was to withdraw.
—(Oh, oh, and Hear, hear.) The case of Sir W. Wyndham
was not very similar. This was nut a mere question about
words. The Hon. Member would do well not to leave his
seat till taken into custody. However aver,e the House might
be to him, there was a power out of the House which would
compel them to rescind their resolutions—( Hear, hear)—and
bring Noble Lords elsewhere to their senses.—(Hear, hear.)
The House then divided on the question of adjournment,
when there appeared--
For the adjournment ... •-• 75
Against it 237
Majority
The House then divided on the main question, that Mr.
Salomons be ordered to withdraw. The numbers were—.
For the motion ••• 231
Against it ... -• ••• 81
Majority ... •-•—•• 150
The SPEAKER then informed Mr. Salomons of the de•
cision of the House, and stated that Mr. r Salomons, under
the circumstances, would see the necessity for h:s with-
drawal.
Mr. SaLostoss not having withdrawn,
The SPEAKER directed the Sergeant-at-Arms to remove
him.

The SERGEANT advanced to Mr. Salomons and tapped
him on the shoulder, when Mr. Salomons stood up, and
having said that he yielded, was interrupted by loud cries
of " Order." He then retired beyond the bar with the
Sergeant.
Mr. ANSTEY asked whether the Hon. Member for
Greenwich could remain in the,place appropriated to peers?
The SPEAKER replied that the Hon. Member might take
his seat where Hon. Gentlemen usually took their seats be-
fore taking the oaths.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having
moved that the Speaker do leave the chair on the House
going into Committee of Ways and Means,
Mr. BRIGHT said that some misapprehension existed
with respect to the motion which the Noble Lord had inti-
mated his intention of proposing to-morrow. He had been
supposed by Hon. Members to say that he would propose
some other resolution than the resolution adopted last year
in the case of the Hon. Member for the city of London. It
was desirable to know what was the resolution to be pro-
posed by the Noble Lord.
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that the resolution would be
similar to that agreed to last year—namely, " That David
Salomons, Eq., is not entitled to sit or vote in this House
until he shall take the oath of abjuration in the form ap-
pointed by law."—(Hear, hear.) It being understood that
Mr Salomons desired to address the House with respect to
his right to sit, he (Lord J. Russell) would move " that
Mr. Salomons be heard, in the same way as Mr. O'Connell,
at the bar of the House."
In vply to Lord D. STUART,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that he should propose his reso-
lution at 5 o'clock.
Mr. BRIGHT remarked, that if what the Noble Lord
proposed were all he intended to do, the House would be
where they were. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. THESIGER intimated that he would not propose
the resolution he had stated his intention of moving, but
agree to the resolution of the Noble Lord.
Mr. OSBORNE asked whether—Mr. Salomons having
taken his seat, voted three time, and spoken—the Noble Lord
would now prosecute him?—(Laughter )
Lord J RUSSELL thought that if the Hon. Member for
Greenwich wished to be prosecuted, he would be able to find
some person who would prosecute him.— (Cheers.)
Mr. ANSTEY wished to ask the Noble Lord if the Hon.
Member for Greenwich te-mo-row, on being called upon to
make his election to be heard or not, preferred to be heard
in a court of justice, whether the Noble Lord would then
consider the propriety.—[The concluding words were lost in
cries of " oh."]
The SPEAKER having put the question that he do now
leave the chair,
Mr. ANSTEY said, he objected to the Speaker's leaving
the chair. He objected to any public business being entered
on, or any supplies being granted, till this great question of
Parliamentary privilege was settled.
After a few words from Lord D. STUART and Mr. DisisEt.s,
with reference to the interference of the discussion to-morrow
night on the resolution of the s.oble Lord with other business
on the paper,
The House went into Committee of Ways and Means, when
resolutions appropriating various sums to her Majesty's ser-
vices were agreed to.
The House then resumed.
On the third reading of the Merchant Seamen's Fund Bill,
Mr. MOFFATT moved the addition of a clause, reserving
the benefits of moneys permanently invested to the ports
where they Lad been raised.
Mr. LABOUCHERE opposed the clause, which,
After a few words from Mr Rice, Sir G. Pechell, Mr. Cur-
tis, and Mr. Wawn, was withdrawn.
The Commons Enclosure (No. 2) Bill, was read a second
time.
On the motion for going into Committee on the General
Board of Health Bill,
Sir J. WALMSLEY opposed the motion, on the ground
that Yarmouth had been improperly included under the Bill.
After some observations from Mr. RUM BOLD,
Lord SEYMOUR justified including Yarmouth within the
provisions of the Bill, for the sake of its health.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For going into Committee •••
Against •••
Majority ..
The Bill then went through Committee.
INCOME AND PROPERTY-TAX.
The report of the Committee was brought up and read.
—Ordered to lie on the table, and be printed.
INVERNESS BRIDGE (ADVANCES).
This Bill was considered in Committee, and the following
resolution proposed :—" That the Commissioners of her Ma-
jtehset ystal
Treasury'auof
to ,70b0e
1.
out authorisedof thetocoandsvoalnt
Consolidated
ebdy
Fwuanyd of
o floan,
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, towards de-
fraying the expense
n re isdsg. , approachesßesuiutjo n
d etnoobfeeraeting and constructing the new
b
worksreportoevderthtished riv.er. Nese at Inver-
The Conveyance of Mails- by Railwayasyßill went through
Houseittee. went into Committee on the Veterinary Sur-
geons o
Exemption
nIBE moved Bill
, that the Chairman l.Lhould report
but almost immediately,
CTi‘mihmre .
BOUVERIE
progress.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said a few words in favour of the Bill.
clude Mr. HENLEY
the measure. objected to the principle of exemptions in-
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For reporting progress
21
Against ••• 13
Majority ••• •••
The House resumed, and the other orders of —day were
disposed of.
Mr. LABOUCHERE obtained leave and brought in a
Bill to repeal the Act for the Appointment of Commissioners
of Railways.
The House adjourned at a quarter to Two o'clock till to-
morrow at Twelve.

... 92

... 12

-80

The O'GonmAx Mmiom paired in favour of the admission
of Mr. Salomons with Lord BROOKE, against.
Mr. GODDARD paired against the admission of Mr. Salo-
mons, with Mr. BUNBERY, in favour.
Mr. BREMRIDGE paired against Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE'S
amendment with Mr. WAKLEY, for.
Mr. MORGAN O'CONNELL paired in favour of Mr. OS-
BORNE'S amendment with Mr. REProw, against.

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 21.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Fin o'clock.

PETITIONS.

Lord CAMPBELL presented—t; petition from some
place in Somersetshire in favour of the Copyhold En-
franchisement Bill.
The Earl of MALMESBURY presented, on the part
of his Noble Friend the Earl of Derby, who was too ill
to attend their Lordships' House, several petitions i❑
favour of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, many of which
prayed that it might be made more stringent.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented petitions
from places in Ireland against the Bill.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM presented several petitions in
Lwow. of the Bill.

SUN,

JULY