The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-06 00:00:00

ti .
been that evening said, in the course the long discussion
which had taken place, could hurt any on. Member in his
public capacity. Hit (Sir Francis Burd t) could say, that to
comply with the wishes of the House would be the best course
for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to adopt ; but if he did
not voluntarily and gracefully comply with the wish expressed
by the House, there would be no other alternative left but to
put both parties into custody.—(Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER was sure the House, as well as himself,
meant nothing offensive to the Hon. and Learned Member for
Tipperary, but if he did not adopt the recommendation made to
him, and promise not to prosecute the matter out of doors, the
House would feel obliged to follow the usual course in such
cases. He was sure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would
see they had no wish to place him in a false position, for if he
would consult the journals of the House, he would find that in
all similar cases where such assurances were not given, the pri.
vileges of the House were exercised, and the parties put under
restraint.
' "

Mr. HARDY said, that no man could be more anxious than
himself that nothing should be done in this matter out of doors,
but he did not see that the character of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman would be safe, unless the House put him in a condi-
tion to prove his innocence of the charge which had been pre-
ferred against him. The Member for Hull had said that one of
the Irish Members, while voting against the Coercion Bill, had
privately expressed his wish that such Bill should pass; adding,
that if it did not, there would be no living with safety in Ire-
land. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had asked the Noble
Lord whether he was meant as the individual who had used
such language and been guilty of such conduct ? The Noble
Lord replied that he was. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
denied, in the most solemn manner, that he had ever made such
statement. He was, therefore, placed in a situation of peculiar
cruelty. Every one must be anxious to prevent those unplea-
sant results from this affair which were contemplated ; but, in
wishing to do this, it was but a matter of justice to fhe Hon.
and Learned Member to promise him an investigation into the
matter, that he might have an opportunity of vindicating his
character. He thought the Noble Lord should acquiesce in the
wish which had been expressed, and acknowledge that he had
been misled by his informant.
Mr. RUTHVEN rose amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh!" He
would ask what encouragement Irish Members had to speak in
that House when they were assailed with such cries as those
he then heard. He wished to know from which of the Hon.
Members those cries proceeded.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
He (Mr. Ruthven) had no wish to make matters worse. He
was glad the Noble Lord did not wish to shield himself by say-
ing he spoke in his Ministerial character. He (Mr. Ruthven)
would interpret the language made use of in the way such
language usually was interpreted, and he hesitated not to say,
that the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary was placed
by it in a dishonourable position. He would have expected
that the Noble Lord and his friends would have at once ac-
quiesced in the wish to have the matter investigated. It was
due to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that such inquiry
should be instituted. He trusted the Irish Members would
unite together and demand that the inquiry be made. If it
should be refused, it would be a harsh and cruel thing. He
(Mr. Ruthven) believed the statement was a calumny, a foul
slander on the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.

Sir H. HARDINGE thought the Noble Lord was placed
in a difficult situation. He felt himself bound by a sense of
honour not to give up the name of his informant. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman was placed in a very peculiar position.

It was consequently a matter of very great difficulty for the
House to do justice to both parties. He thought the parties
should be put under temporary restraint, in order that the
House might have time to deliberate on what course they ought
to adopt in the matter. That he thought would be the best
thing they could do in the present position of the affair. He
would second a motion to that effect.
Mr. COBBETT held the whole matter which had that even.
ing occupied the House in great contempt; but then he must
say that he thought that the Hon. and Learned Member for
Tipperary had been harshly treated. The state of the case ap-
peared to him (Mr. Cobbett) to be similar to this :—One of a
company was accused of stealing a horse. An individual gets
up and says, "Isit I P" He is answered by another, " Yes;
you are the man." The accused demands the name of the in-
formant ; the other says, " Oh no,' give it up; but I my-
self assume the responsibility."— (Laughter.)
Mr. ABERCROMBIE hoped that after the complexion
which the unfortunate matter had assumed, which appeared to
be serious, the House would not separate until measures were
taken to restrain the parties from any further steps in it. He
did not think it was at all necessary to annex the condition of
inquiry to that of restraint. The case was a very peculiar one
for the House to consider. He (Mr. Abercrombie) was not
prepared to consent to inquiry into the matter. He was sure
that no Hon. Member who had taken part in the discussion
wished to say or do anything that could affect the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman's personal honour. If he did voluntarily
give the House an assurance that there would be nothing more
done by him in the matter, there would be an end of it;
but if he did not, the House could not, in justice to itself or to
the parties, rise without putting both under restraint. Even if
the House did not come to any decision on the subject, he (Mr.
Abercrombie) conceived the Noble Lord should not make any
reply out of the House to any communication the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman might make to him on the subject. He
would submit to the House whether it ought not to adopt the
suggestion of the Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) relative to this
matter.—(Hear, hear.)
An Iftisit MEMBER, whose name we did not learn, thought

it nothing more than 'just and proper that the first step towards
explanation should proceed from the other (the Ministerial)
side of the House. If he understood the Noble Lord, he
meant to attach the same import to the language he had made
use of as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself had done.
He therefore hoped the Noble Lord would express his concur-
rence in the wish expressed, that an inquiry into the matter
shpuld took place.
Mr. O'DWYER did not rise for the purpose of adding to the
excitement which already existed on this painful subject; but
he felt that he would be guilty of a gross neglect of his duty,

if he did not express his conviction that it would be unjust to
restrain the Hon. and Learned Gentleman from taking any
course his honour suggested, while the Noble Lord was left at
at liberty not to retract one word of the expressions he had
made use of. He (Mr. O'Dwyer) understood the Noble Lord
to say he believed the statement of his informant relative to
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. If that statement was true,
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was not only unfit to be a
Member of that House, but to associate with gentlemen. The
Noble Lord had not admitted that he might have been deceived
by his informant. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had de-
nounced the statement as a gross calumny, and it was unfair

that he should be put under restraint. From the explanations
which had been made that evening in the course of the present
discussion, the communication had been deprived of the harsh
features it previously possessed. It was admitted that the
Hon. Member for Hull had told a foul calumny. Nothing of

the kind alleged by him had occurred—never had a more gross
attack been made on a body of respectable individuals. He
hoped the author would yet be given up to receive the reward
due to him for so outrageous a calumny.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT moved, that the Speaker put it
to both parties whether or not they would voluntarily assure
the House that nothing should be done out of the House rela-
tive to this matter.

Mr. HILL was extremely sorry that anything which he had
said should have led to this unpleasant discussion. When he
first heard the report alluded to, he believed it to be true—he
still believed it to be true, and if a Committee were appointed
to inquire into the matter, he would use his best exertions to
furnish every possible information on the subject ; and if it
should turn out that the report was unfounded, he would feel
it his duty to make reparation for the error into which he had
been led.

The SPEAKER said the longer the discussion on this topic
was extended, the deeper did they get entangled in differences
and misunderstandings on it. He thought the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman must be aware that it was now his (the Speaker's)
duty to call on both parties to assure the House, that no pro-
ceedings should take place on this subject out of doors. He
thought it right to tell them, that the House did not propose
harsher terms to them than would be proposed to other Mem-
bers similarly circumstanced. There was no other alternative
left, unless the parties, on foreseeing what the decision of the
House would be, would anticipate that decision, by giving a
voluntary assurance that this matter should not be prosecuted
out of doors. It was now his (the Speaker's) duty to call. on
each of the parties to see whether they would give that aisu-
ranee or not.
The SPEAKER then put the question to Mr. Sheil, who
made no answer.

Some confusion occurred in the House at this moment. We
understood Sir FRANCIS Buancrr to move, before the question
was put to Lord Althorp, that both parties be put under re-
straint.
On the question being put to the Noble Lord, he said that he
had received no offence, and that nothing that had passed that
evening should induce him to proceed further.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the Noble Lord might well say
he had received no offence, but he had given offence. The
Noble Lord had not gone far enough in his denial of any inten-
tion to proceed further with the matter, because he was, to use
his (Mr. O'Connell's) own law terms, defendant, and not plaintiff
in the case. He felt that his Hon. and Learned Friend had

........ --. __ _
been harshly used by the House.
An HoN. MEMBER here remarked, that the reply of the Noble
Lord simply conveyed the impression that he would not send a

hostile message.
The SPEAKER said that he understood the answer of the
Noble Iford to mean that he would not only not give a call to
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but that he would not re.
spond to a call if given him by the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, To that extent he (the Speaker) felt himself bound to go,
and to that extent he understood the Noble Lord's answer to go.
Lord ALTHORP would not give, but would respond to a
call.—(Loud cries o€" Hear, hear.")
Sir ROBERT PEEL was sure it would be most in accord.
once with the feelings of all parties that both the Noble Lord
and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman should be forthwith taken
into custody.
The SPEAKER then put the motion, that they be both taken
into custody, which was agreed to without a dissentient voice.
Lord Althorp and Mr. Shell were then removed in the cus-
tody of the Sergeant-at-Arms.
Mr. O'CONNELL obtained a further suspension of the issue
of a new writ for the borough of Carrickfergus till that day
three weeks.
Mr. BERNAL, in the absence of Mr. R. Ferguson, moved
for a further suspension of the issue of a new writ for Warwick
till the 15th March.
Mr. HALCOMB did not see that any case bad been made
out to authorise any further suspension of the writ for War-