The Sun.
London, England, 1851-08-22 00:00:00

851.

[PRICE SD.

shall reside therein during such portion of the year
as is not covered by the privilege therein provided;
and for the better ascertaining the fact of such re-
sidence, every person claiming the benefit of this
exemption shall verify the same upon oath (if re-
quired) before the Commissioners acting in the ex-
ecution of this Act, in the district where such
parsons shall reside."
Mr. T. BARING—AII the rest of the time he must
reside in Ireland ?—Yes.
Colonel RomlLLT—Does that proof of non-residence
rest upon the oath of the party ; is that the only
means of proving the fact of non-residence ?—Unless
he claimed the exemption on oath, if required, be
would be chargeable.

You would have no means of proving the fact of
non• residence against him under the terms of the Act,
at least it would be a very difficult thing ?--It would
be very difficult, generally, to ascertain when he ar-
rived in England and when he left.
Mr. J. WILSON—Does not the exemption apply to
residence in England not rendering absolutely neces-
sary residence in Ireland during the whole of the rest
of the period ; suppose a man had been in France, or
abroad, during the rest of the period ?—Then he
would be chargeable. " Provided also, that no per-
son shall, for the purposes of claiming this exemption,
be deemed to be ordinarily resident in Ireland, unless
he shall reside therein during such portion of the
year as is not covered by the privilege herein provided.'
Mr. RICABDO—In case of a prosecution being in-
stituted for a false return, under schedule (D), would
it be under your control ; would you have the
management of it ?—Yes, if it were a prosecution
for a penalty.
There have been certain prosecutions; I believe you
gave a return of them?—lt appears that in 1846
there were two; in 1850, there were six ; and in
1851, three.
Did you, under those prosecutions, require the
production of the books of the parties prosecuted ?
—No, I believe that these were cases in which we
had the means of proving that the party had not re-
turned the full amount of the salary to which he was
entitled, but not the profits of a trade.
Have there been any prosecutions in respect to
profits arising from trade ?—I do not remember the
particulars of these cases ; they are a long time ago ;
two in 1846.

You do not remember having conducted any pro-
secution against a tradesman or a merchant for a
false return of his profits ?—No, I do not believe that
I have.

I think it has been stated that the greater number
of the returns under schedule (D) are not correct re-
turns ?—I have no means of judging of that; they do
not come before me. .

—Have you ever known an instance in which the
books of a tradesman or merchant have been ex-
amined ?—No doubt there are cases in which they are
examined before the local Commissioners, but the
books are never required to be examined in any pro-
secution which is conducted by me.
Then you, as prosecuting, have never had occasion
to examine the books of a tradesman, under schedule
(D) ?—No, I have no power to do so.
The local Commissioners have the power to do that?

—They have.
Have the local Commissioners any machinery to
enable them to do it ?—Yes, they have ?—lf the party
refuses to produce his book, they may confirm the
surcharge.
Have they power to employ an accountant ?—No
special leave is given them by law to do that.
And no funds are provided for the payment of an
accountant if they did employ him ?—No.

Is it not the fact that in many cases the local Com-
missioners are not competent to examine the books of
a merchant or tradesman, to ascertain whether he has
made a false return of his profits P—l am not pre-
pared to say that, because in those places where mer-
chants are liable to be assessed, mercantile men may
also be Commissioners. _ _

Do you think that in every case the local Commis-
sioners are competent to examine the books ?—I can-
not say that. I think these questions would be much
better answered by the surveyors, wbo are in con-
stant communication with the Commissioners. I
have never gone before any board of Commissioners.
They do not report to you in any way, then ?—N o.

JOHN FULLER, ESQ., EXAMINED.
CHAIRMAN —Are you one of the Special Commis-
sioners under the property and income-tax for the ex-
amination of claims for the return of duty ?—I am one
of the Special Commissioners ; it is not particularly
for that service.

There are only three Special Commissioners, I be-
ieve ?—Yes.

Will you state to the Committee what your duties
are generally ?—ln the first place they are to assess
those persons under Schedule (D) who prefer being
assessed by the Special Commissioners, and who pre-
fer sending in their incomes to the Special Commis-
sioners rather than to the Commissioners for General
Purposes; however, that is a part of the business to
which I have not much attended. My attention has
been chiefly directed to the exemption clauses.
You have charge of all exemptions under that Act ;
it is your business to receive every claim for exemp-
tion, and to attend to it ?—Yes; or rather every claim
for repayment.
For exemption by way of repayment ?—Yes.
By whom are such claims for repayment forwarded
to you ?—ln cases of persons whose incomes are
under 1501. a year, who claim on that ground
the claims come to us through the hands of the
surveyors.
Do they not invariably come to you through the
hands of the surveyors ?—That class of claims in-
variably comes to us through the hands of the sur-
veyors ; other claims, the claims for charitable insti-
tutions, and fer the repayments on commuted tithe,
are sent to us from the parties themselves.
What course do you pursue in practice with the
examination of those claims that come through the
surveyors ?—ln the first place they are indexed ; there
is an index kept of them all; then they are referred
to certain clerks in particular departments, according
to the nature of these claims, to be examined to see
whether they are correct or not with the vouchers and
other things which we require, and then they are
passed. The chief
,clerk in each department, after
the claim has been examined by the under-clerks, puts
his signature upon it as a sort of voucher. The orders
or warrants are made out upon those claims, which
warrants are signed by me in the first instance, and
then are signed pro
,forma by the Board of Com-
missioners of Inland Revenue.
You have said that all these claims are under your
charge; do those claims undergo your personal ex-
amination, each of them ?—Not all of them ; it would
be utterly impossible; there are as many as 300 or
400 sometimes in the course of a day.
Then to whom do you delegate the power : you
have stated to the Committee that it is your duty to
sign the warrant to repay the money ; to whom do
you delegate the power to judge of the propriety or
justice of the claim?--The claims are divided into
what we call technically certificate claims and stock
claims, and they are referred accordingly to two dif-
ferent officers. There is a head clerk in each of those
'offices, who is a man of experience, and a person who
is considered a trustworthy man, who passes those
claims, provided he finds them to be all regular in
the ordinary course of proceeding. If the clerk finds
a difficulty in any claim, or has any suspicion that it
is not a correct one, be refers it to the chief clerk in
the office, and if he finds a difficulty again, he refers it
to me.
Then it only comes to you in the third instance ?
In the third instance.
Will you define what are the class of claims that
come within each of those departments ?—The claims
in the one department are claims for the repayment
of duty which has been charged on dividends at the
Bank, South Sea House, India House, and National
Debt-office.
Do large insurance companies come under that
class ; such as the Amicable and others where deduc-
tions are made? No; because we should have no
means of check there. We have the books of the
Bank, South Sea House, and India House, whereby
the clerk can check every item ; but we have no
books of the insurance companies, and therefore they
would come under the class of certificates.
What come under the second division ? Those are
what are technically called certificate claims ; those
are claims for the repayment of duty on other pro-
perty, which it is necessary to support by certificates.
Does that include all other claims except
and India
those de-
ductions that have been made at the Ban
House ?—Yes ; all other claims under that clause of
the act for allowance of duty to persons whose income
is under 1501.
Then all claims for exemptions for incomes under
1501. are considered in these two departments which
you have now stated ?—Yes.
Can you state to the Committee the n,,umber of
claims that have been made in any one year I have
the number of claims for the year ending April 1849,
which is the first year of the last series now termina-
ting; the number of claims received was 69,833.
Can you state the amount of money claimed to be
returned ?—The amount repaid was 73,818/. 18s. 4d.
You do not recollect the amount claimed ?—No ;
we should have no means of ascertaining that; no
notioe in all probability would be taken of the amount
of those claims which were rejected.
.avo you lqcught a certain number of the books in

order to share the CcrnmitV
in which these records of
have brought some of the
book.)
Mr. HENLEY—What portion of time do the cone
tents of that book run over ?—I think in the year 1840
they amounted to about 289 volumes.
The contents of that volume do not appear, upon
looking at the papers within it, to answer to the look
of the outside at all P—Because a great number of the
papers are short.
What period does that particular volume run over;
at what date does it commence, and at what date doe*
it close ?—Probably they would not be put according
to date.
CHAIRMAN—How are the claims arranged ; are
they according to classes, or the dates at which they
arrive ; how do you make up any year P—They are
arranged according to certain numbers in our indictee.
Are those numbers regulated by the particu.'ar
number of the claim, or by the date at which it comet:,
in P—By the date at which it comes in, I should say.
Are those dates consecutive ; if so, how many are
there in that volume ?—They may be arranged in this
volume according to the dates at which they came in,
but there may be very many which came in at inter-
mediate dates which are not put into this volume, be-
cause they are not put here until after they have been
thoroughly examined and done with.
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I understood
you to say that in the year to which you have re-
ferred there were 69,000 claims, the papers relative to
which occupied 289 volumes ?—Yes.
CHAIRMAN—Of the size of that folio volume ?-0f
that size. That is the only way in which you can
come at it, I believe.
Are all these claims for return of duty only, for
repayment ?—Yes.
Do those 289 volumes contain any part of the claims
for discharges under Schedule (A), (B), or (D),
which are made to the surveyors ?—I do not know
whether they do include them or not, but I rather
think that they do.
You are aware that claims are made for discharge
from the assessment prior to the net assessment being
made by the surveyor. My question applies to
whether those volumes contain any of the claims
which have been made to the surveyors, and by the
surveyors discharged ?—No, not at all ; we have
nothing to do with that. It does not at all go through
our office. That is done entirely by the Commis•
sioners for General Purposes.
Then. the folio volumes, one of which you have
produced now, and the 63,000 claims, cannot give the
Committee any idea of the total number of claims
made for exemption to the surveyors P—No.
Can you form any correct opinion of the converse
Live proportion which the claims for return of duty
bear to the claims for the general discharges to which
I have alluded P—No, I have no means, because those
that are discharged in the country do not in any way
come before my notice.
Is there no return of the discharges made in the
country laid before the Board ?—That I cannot tell
you.
Do the parties claiming the return of duty make
their claims every year ?—Not regularly. Some of
them make their claims more often than once a year.
Others let them go for three or four years sometimes.
Our rule is not, except under special circumstances,
to allow any claim after three years.
Do you send a return to the bank of the account*
from which the tax is not to be deducted ?—Yes.
That goes from your office ?—Yes.
What is the nature of the communication which
you make to the Bank and to the India House ?
They send us copies of their books ' • at every divi-
dend we have a copy of the Bank books and the South
Sea books, and the India House books sent to us ; our
clerks look over them and see what of those items are
entitled to exemption. They make a list of such
items and send it to the Bank and elsewhere.
Do you mean that they compare the claims sent in
to you with their books ?—Yes ; whenever a claim is
sent in to the examination room for dividends or for
stock, it is marked off opposite to the name of the
man in the book ; therefore, when the lists are to be.
made out, the clerk has nothing to do but to turn
over the leaves, and all those names against which he
sees " exempt" written he copies into the list and
sends it to the bank, who simply copy it I suppose in
their list.
Do you send that once a year or once a quarter, or
how do you do ?—Previously to every dividend.
The same to the India House as to the Bank ?—Yes:
Wherever the deductions are mad. ?—Wherever
the deductions are made.
Can you state what length of time is requisite, or
what establishment you have for doing that duty ?—•
The establishment varies from time to time ; the
claims do not come in very regularly; some months
they are much more than others ; but I should say
we cannot do the business with less than 25 clerks,
and sometimes more. I believe at this time we have
29 clerks employed.
Have you any statement of the expense of your
particular department ?—I have nothing to do with
the regulation of the expense of the department ;
that is entirely managed by the Board, but I believe
I can tell you. I know the number of persons em•
ployed, and the amount is given to me for the present
number of clerks as 4,479/.
For 29 clerks 7—Yes.
Are these all the parties who are employed in the
course of the year by you respecting those exemp-
tions ?—Yes ; the surveyors give us great assistance.
In your office P—ln our office.
Is there not a distinction in cases of exemption
from tax on account of charities and hospitals;
what course do you observe with regard to them 2--
Those claims are generally sent to us by the parties
themselves ; perhaps by the secretary, or the clerk or
treasurer, or whoever it may happen to be of the
charity, and they are sworn ;to; they are then re-
ferred to me in the first instance, and it is for me to
decide whether I consider them to be charitable Wee
within the meaning of the Act.
That part cf the business you do yourself?—l do;
that is so specified in the Act.
What number of those cases are there in the course
of the year ?-3,334 is the number given to me.
Do those form part of the 69,000, or are they sepa-
rate 2—Quite distinct from the 69,000.
In relation to the returns which are sent to the
Bank, are we to understand that the answer which
you have given as to the lists applies to the Bank, the
East India House, and other companies, by whom the
deductions are made ?—Yes.
A quarterly account P—Previously to each divie
dend. Then I should observe that we do not make out
an entirely new account, because these accounts
which have been previously exempt remain exempt,
so that our account only extends to such as are ad-
ditional exemptions, new exemptions, during that
quarter.
Can you tell what is the average number of el-
emptions included in these lists in the year or quer»
terly ?—The accounts exempt at the Bank in the year
ending sth April, 1849 were 9,785.
Have you any list as to the India Houle P—l have
not.