The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-27 00:00:00

MALT DUTY.

Lord A LTHORP having again moved that the Speaker
do leave the chair.
Sir W. INGILI3Y rose to make his promised motion
for a reduction of tle duty on Malt. He expressed his
conviction that a diminution, if not a total repeal of the
duty on malt would be a great relief to the whole country.
In the county which he hid the honour to represent,
barley was selling at a lower price than the amount of the
duty upon it when it was taken to the malt-house. He
was at a loss to conceive why the burdens of the country
were allowed to press so heavily upon the landlords, and
why the fundlords were not to have their share of the
weight. He did not think it was possible to find a better
subject on which to reduce the duty than malt. If a por-
tion of that duty were taken off, he was far from being
satisfied that the revenue would not be increased rather
than decreased; for it had been proved in former cases
that in proportion to the reduction of a tax en any article
of consumption the consumption itself had been augmented.
The object of his motion was to give satisfaction to all
classes in the country. He had been asked by the Noble
Lord to suggest a tax in lieu of the malt duty. That was
not his office. He was not Chancellor of the Exchequer.
If ha were, he might, perhaps, in a little time become
like other Chancellors of the Exchequer, more afraid of the
fundlord than the landlord. The fundlord and the land-
lord were, he repeated, at present very unequally taxed.
While the landlord had his carriage, his horses, and his
servants, for all which he was highly taxed, the fundlord
might have nothing but an old woman and a cat, for
neither of which he was taxed at loud laugh.)
He had offered the conduct of this motion to abler hands,
but as the subject had been originally brought forward by
him, and as he knew it would be a gratification to the
Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer, who would have
been disappointed if he had not done so—(A laugh)—he
had taken it up again. What he required was, a revision
of this odiobs impost, and for that purpose he would move,
us an amendment, " That the duty on Malt be reduced
from 20s. Bd. to 10s. per quarter."
Mr. PARROTT seconded the motion. The revenue
from the Nlalt Tax naa 4,825,0001. If half the duty
were taken off, there was great reason to believe the con-
sumption would be so considerably increased that the
reve,iue would not lose above 1,200,0001. Now, in his
opinion, that was a deficiency which could be made up
without touch difficulty. Would there be any injustice in
reducing all overgrown salaries ? Would there be any
injustice in taking away all sinecures, without givinc any
compensation to the holders? Those overgrown salaries,
and those sinecures, had been granted by a corrupt House
Commons; it was the duty of a Reformed House of Corn.

mons to cor:•ect the abuse. Three or four hundred
thousand Founds might be derived from those sources. The
Civil List might also be reduced, and his Majesty might be
appl:ed to to allow 200,0001. to be deducted on that score.
They heard of some Judges having 10,0001. a year, and
other Judges having 5,000/. a year ; might not the most
efficient public servants he obtained in that capacity at
half the expense ? Why not reduce the salaries of all
public servants—not of the inferior class only, but begin-
ing at the head, and going all the way down ? He had
always been a con,cientious supporter of his Majesty's
present Ministers ; but he must say, that their Budget
had been received throughout t,e country, not with
coldness and dissatisfaction, but with scorn and contempt.
He supported, therefore, the motion of the Hon Baronet,
convinced as he was, that they ought to do everything in
their power to relieve the distresses of the country, and
above all, that they should take off at least half the
Duty on Malt.

Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT perfectly agreed with the
Hon. Baronet, that the agriculture of the country would
derive great benefit from the adoption of his motion. But
he had never, during a pretty long Parliamentary carter,
considered it his duty to attend to the in'erests of his con-
stituents exclusively, or of those of any particular class of
society. It had al ways appeared to him that he was a
representative of the people of England at large, and that
he was bound to consider what would he beneficial to the
people of England at large. With that view of his duty,
he could not support the motion of the Hon. Baronet; for
he felt, that with reference to the general interest, this
was not the time at which he could sanction any reduction
of the national revenue. No clamour would ever induce

him to do what he did not consider his duty. Those cla-
mours were frequently most unfounded ; for instance, the
clamours of the shopkeepers for the reduction of the house
and window tax—a tax which the shopkeepers never did
pay, and never could pay. It was paid by the landlord
—on a hcuse, the rent of which was 200/., the taxes
were perhaps 90/. To take those taxes off, would be like
taking the tithes off the farmer ; the landlord would have
a perfect right to add the 501. to the rent. When an
Hon. Gentleman came forward with a proposition to take
tiff any tax, and the malt tax in particular, he (Sir John
Sebright) would be quite ready to support him, if he were
prepared with a substitnte. But how the Noble Lord at
the head of the Exchequer could take off the malt tax, and
yet provide for the service of the country, he was yet to
learn. Agreeing, therefore, with the Hon. Baronet, that
the reduction of the malt tax would be highly advantageous
in itself, not only to the agricultural, but to the other in-
terests of the country ; yet, feeling that this was not the
time at which the revenue could be ssfely reduced, he
would not for the mean and discreditable purpose of ob-
taining propularity, vote fur the motion.

Mr. BENETT said that the county, a portion of which
he had the honour to represent, was a large barley
county ; but that he should be as little disposed as the
Hon. Baronet who had just sat down, to vote for any
proposition, however advantageous to his constituents,
unless he were convinced that its adoption would be bene-
ficial to the whole empire, He agreed also with the
Hen. Baronet, that it would not be proper to reduce any
tax, unless some other mode could be pointed out of ren-
dering the revenue adequate to the public service, and to
the maintenance of the public faith. So much had been
said upon this last point, that he was bound in justice to
himself to declare, that although he voted in all the mino-
rities—the honest minorities lie would call thern—on the
proposition of the lion. Member for NiThitehaven, he had
never meant to depreciate the currency dishonestly, nor
had he entertained the slightest intention of breaking faith
to the public creditor. He had already stated that le
agreed with the lion. Baronet who bad just spoken, that
they ought not to reduce any tax until they could find an
adequate substitute for it. But that substitute he was
persuaded he could find. Io fact, but a few nights ago lie
had voted for such a substitute. He was persuaded that
the only efficient measure which could be adopted, was
a commutation of all the taxes on_ productive industry
for a tax on property. It was right that those who de-
rived protection to their property from our civil and
military institutions should pay in proportion to the pro-
tection they received. The taxes at present, how-
ever, were not on property ; but actually on the ne-
cessities of the people. The adoption of the measure
which he recommended would supply a mode by which
the reduction of the Malt Tax, and of many other taxes,
might be made up. He wished the Hon. Baronet had
moved !or the repeal of the whole tax, as he should have
been glad to get rid of the expense of its collection, and
of its inquisitorial machinery; but whether whole or
half, he would support the motion. He repeated his con-
viction, however, that we must be shortly be compelled to
obtain our resources from property, arid not from the ne-
cessities of the people. A tax on property had been con-
sidered a war tax. Ile would reverse the case, and make

it a peace tax. The people of this country were too apt
to drive the Government into a war; and, as a check to
that disposition, he would in war impose a tax on articles
of general consumption. In the meanwhile, he would
certainly vote for the motion, which would be advan-
tageous not only to agriculture but to the people at large,
by giving them greater facilities for the enjoyment of one
of their luxuries.

Sir G. PHILLIPS expressed his hope that those who
voted against the present or the last motion would not be
supposed adverse to the interests of agriculture. No
Member could be more anxious than himself that the
agricultural and all the other interests of the country
should experience relief; but he voted against these mo-
tions, because he felt that their adoption would embarass
his Majesty's Government. He was disposed to acquiesce
in the arrangement for the reduction of taxation proposed
by his Noble Friend, in whom he placed the fullest confidence.
He had a great respect for his Hon. Friend the Member for
Wiltshire, but he had no desire to see him Chancellor of the
Exchequer in place of his Noble Friend. Certainly he
hoped, if any further reduction of taxation could be made,
that of the agriculturists should have the benefit, fur he
was ready to admit that the distress which existed
amongst the agriculturists was greater than that which
existed amongst commercial men. There had been many
gross exaggerations of the distress, as he was ready to
prove. lie had lately seen many persons front Lanca-
shire, and he could assure the House, that at no period
were the labourers in a better condition than at present.
—(A laugh.) He could inform the laughers that he
spoke from correct information. IF admitted that there
was in some parts of Lancashire cocuiderable distress, but
that was incident to the transfer from band-loom to power-
loom weaving._(lleac, bear.)
I.lr. WARBURTON was not of opinion that a commu-
tation of taxes was improper, provided that industry could
be relieved by a fair and equitable property tax. But if he
saw the Chancellor of the Exchequer with 13,000,0001.
derived from a property tax in the Exchequer, he would
❑ot consent to repeal the duty.on malt till be bad first

made terms with that great body of country gentlemen
who would not assent to a property tax. Of all crops
the barley crops were the most uncertain. In 1530, be-
fore the increase of consumption occasioned by the repeal
of the beer duty, the whole supply of malting barley was
exhausted. If there was such a difficulty of securing a
sufficient supply of barley, that the whole was consumed
before the new crops were ready, before the whole
of the beer duty was taken off, that difficulty must be
increased by the increased consumption, amounting
to 900,000 quarters. It was not only one of the
most uncertain crops, but only a small quantity of that
grown was fit for malting. Of all the barley grown
in Scotland, not above one-fourth could be used for
this purpose. What, then, would be the consequence of
taking off the malt duty ? Why the whole of it would go
into the pockets of the barley growers. It would not
transfer that duty into the pockets of the consumers of
beer, but would put it into the hands of the barley-
growers. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer, therefore,
had his thirteen millions to be derived from a property
tax, he for one would not consent to take off the malt
duty, till the country gentlemen would allow the duty on
foreign barley to be taken off. They need not be much
frightened at that. The barley grown abroad was not
very fit for malting ; even it good, when shipped, it heated
on the voyage, and was unfit for the malster. In 1630,
when barley was at 40s. in this country, the best Bohe-
mian barley could be got at Hamburg for 30s. or 355.
They need not, therefore, be alarmed at the influx of fo-
reign barley. He would, after making terms with these
gentlemen, take off the whole duty. By the present pro-
posal, they would keep up the whole expensive machinery
for levying the tax; they would still expose the manufac-
turer to all the present vexatious interference, and they
would raise the revenue which ,vas left at an enormous
per tentage. lie hoped, theiefore, to see it removed
altogether. An Hon. Member had complained of the
trash drunk at the beer shops. It appeared pretty con-
clusive by the increased consumption of malt (900,000
quarters), that much of that trash must at least be made
from malt. He believed the beer was adulterated by the
publicans, and it was of no consequence who brewed it,
if they adulterated it.
Sir EARDLEY WILMOT (we believe) was for taking
off the tax, because that would be of the greatest benefit
to the morals and happiness of the people. That was, in
his estimation, of more consequence than enriching the
Exchequer. But he rose less to speak on this topic than
to advert to another suhjeet. He entered that House with
a determination to support his Majesty's Government, but
unless they should alter their system, it was not his in-
tention to continue that support. He was sorry to see so
much vacillation in their conduct, and he hoped they
would take a more decided tone. The House, he was
sure, was disposed to support them, and every independent
country gentleman, like himself, would give them his
hearty support if they showed an intention, as it was their
duty, to fulfil the promises they had solemnly made. They
were getting into a difficult and dangerous state. At the

same—time, they might escape by doing justice to the
country. They were exposed, on the one hand, to the
pitfalls set for them by open hostility; and, on the
other, to the snares of pretended friendship. He was sorry
to see them seduced into bye paths, in which there was no

safety.
111.tjor BEAUCLERK supported the resolution, as he
should support every proposition to relieve the burdens
of the people. The country was calling out for a re-
dnction of its burdens, and the Ministry knew very little
of the people if they thought they could continue the pre-
sent burdens.
Mr. HARVEY thought that these propositions were
suggested only by selfishness, or some wretched theories.
Let the Government only allow Hon. Members to express
their opinions, and it would find strength in the diver-
sity of their opinions. They were now called upon to
repeal the malt duties—in a day or two, they were to be
asked to repeal the assessed taxes ; would the Noble Lord
who proposed it support a commutation of taxes, sup-
posing the Government were to meet the demand for the
repeal by such a plan? He was afraid the Noble Lord
would be found in the minority. It would be curious
and instructive to learn how the Hon. Members would
give their votes on such a plan. He should like to know
how many of the minority of 90 who went out just now,
on the proposition to give relief to the agriculturists, voted
the other evening in favour of the motion for a property
tax. It was all very well in Hon. Members pressing the
Government to recede from its engagements; but he
trusted gentlemen would take the financial situation into
consideration before pressing for relief. He thought that
they might possibly reduce two or three millions, and
that such a sum might, by great exertions, be spared
out of the seventeen or eighteen millions Government
had to spend. That was, however, only to be done by
the most searching economy. He conceived that it was
pi,ssible that three millions, but not more, could be
spared, and keep up the establishments and preserve the
integrity of the country; but how was that to be done if
three millions were to be taken off for this tax, and four
millions for that ? If one day the malt tax was to be
reduced, and another the assessed taxes were to be
taken off, making together seren millions ? The malt tax
amounted to 4,800.000/.—(We only want the half taken
off !) He would come to that presently. But assuming
that the a.,.riculturists demanded the whole, and the shop.
keepers, as the inhabitants of the towns bad been called by
an Hon. Member, required 2,500,000/. to be removed.--
here were upwards of seven millions which the Govern-
ment wrs required to reduce. Those gentlemen who pro-
posed this had not shown how the Noble Lord was to get
out of this financial difficulty. The Hon. Member for
Worcester had brought forward a motion fot imposing a
property tax in a manner which would not allow that
motion soon to be forgotten, and that motion was partly
opposed because it was anticipating the Budget. They
were asked to wait—told calmly to resign themselves to
confidence in the Ministry, and see what a reformer, as
Chancellor of the Exchequer, would produce. The esti-
mates amounted to eighteen millions ; and what would be
left to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if these demands
were granted, without some substitute ? As a reformed
Parliament, they were no longer the servants, hut the
masters of the Ministers ; and he must blame the Mem-

bers for taking the law entirely from them. It was their
duty to refuse the Exchequer what they thought right not
to take everything from the Government. He wished some
Hon. Member would, in that sense. move a re-olution,
stating that the country required primarily a reduction
of taxation to the amount of three millions ; that would be
a substantive proposition ; and next that the malt tax and
the assessed taxes ought to be taken off, and their place
supplied by a property tax. Let them only look at the
situation in which the Government would be placed by the
repealing these two taxes without some substitute. He
would con•ent to a property tax, and he would consent
to the repeal of the whole of the malt duty, without, as
the Hon. Member for Bridport proposed, making terms
with the landlords. He would vote for the repeal of the
whole tax, and he would also vote for the repeal of the as-
sessed taxes, and he would supply the place of these taxes
by a fair property tax. He wished that the Ministers
had proposed some definite plan for the imposition of a
property tax ; and then, if it had failed, the blame of
the failure could not have rested with them, and they
would at once have made themselves infinitely popular,
and would have silenced such remarks as those which
were made upon them this evening.
Lord ALTHORP admitted that what the Hon. Mem-
ber bad just sta.ed was quite true; namely, that if a
reduction of taxatit n, such as that which was now pro-
posed, should take place, it could not do so without a
commutation of taxes. He wished, therefore, that Hon.
Gentlemen would consider whether, looking at this ques-
tion fairly, they were prepared to say that the tax which
was suggested, and which was pressed upon the House,
was one that they thought would be found more advan-
tageous than those which were proposed to be removed,
and whether they would assist in adopting it. There
were two modes in which such a tax could be levied
One class of persons thought that it should not be levied
upon professional incomes, but that it should be made
to affect realised incomes, and them alone. If that was
to be the case, he asked those Gentlemen who now sup
ported the motion, whether sueh an arrangement was
likely to afford relief to the landed interest ?—(Hear.)
He had always been ag inst a property tax, because he
had always thought that, as to introducing an equitable
property tax, the difficu'ties that lay in the way of it were
such, that, as far as he had been able to apply his mind to
the subject, he had not been able to find his way out
of. Would any Gentleman say that that property tax
which was repealed in 1816 was fair and equitable ? He
believed that they all agreed that it was not. The sub-
ject, indeed, was like that of the poor laws. Every one
agreed that the present system was bad—but he should
like to see a system that all would acknowledge to be
good ; and if such a systein could be prepared with re-
gard to the property tax, so as to be perfectly fair and equi-
table, he should be happy to adopt it. The Hon. Member
for Warwickshire said that the Government had lost the
confidence of the country by their vaccination. The Hon.
Member had not, however, pointed out any one instance
of that vaccination. He (Lord Althorp) was aware that
they had sometimes been accused of obstinacy in carrying
forward their measur. s, but he did not know that they
had been accused of vaccination. If it was true that the
Government had lost the confidence of the country, he did
not believe that they had lost it on that account. The
Hon, Member who introduced thin motion proposed that

half of the malt tax should be taken off. M far as the in-
convenience to the Government was concerned, the whole
might as well be reduced as a part, for in both cases it
would be equally impossible to carry on the public service.
The whole of the anticipated surplus income would be
swallowed up, and if it were twice what it was, it would
not he sufficient to meet the loss to the revenue which the
adoption of this motion would occasion. It was said that no
advantage had been given to the agriculturist. He denied
the assertion. The tax on beer had been taken off, and
the reduction of that was a great advantage to the barley
grower, as it had most materially increased the consump-
tion of the article he produced. As a proof of this, he
need only refer to the bushels of malt consumed in the
course of three successive years and to the enormous in-
crease of the amount of that consumption. In 1830, the
number of bushels of malt consumed was 28,641 892.
' In 1831 there were 35,160,000 bushels of malt consumed ;
and in 1632 the number reached as high as 10,311,000
bushels.--( Hear, hear.) If this motion was carried, it
was impossible that he should eff,ct the reductions of
taxation which he had already suggested to the House,
unless there was proposed some plan of a property tax such
as the House could and would adopt.—(Hear.) For these
reasons he felt it to be absolutely necessary to oppose the
motion. He admitted that it was the duty of the Govern-
, ment, if the House resolved on reducing a tax, to find a
substitute for it, but he confessed that, should the House
abolish this tax, he was not able to name a substitute that
• would be equally satisfactory with that which was proposed
to be taken off. The meeting which took place yesterday
• had been referred to as a proof of the evils of giving represen-
tatives to the metropolitan borotsgha, and they
, were told that they had been forewarned of the enormous
and overwhelming power they were creating when they
proposed to give them representatives. His answer was,
that in whatever he had done he had endeavoured to act
with perfect impartiality.—(Hear.) His not having done
more for the metropolis than he had done in the budget,
had, he found, rendered his propositions unpopular in this
great city; and his not having done more for the agricul-
turists, would, he was also told, render them unpopular in
the country. He regretted the consequence in both cases ;
but such was the fate of all men who took every possible
• care to do that which was fair for all pars of the empire
alike —(Hear.) However the Hon. Member fur War-
wickshire might charge him with vaccillation, he should
not be found vaccillating now. It was his determination,
as lung as he held the situation which he at present occu-
pied, to endeavour to act fairly between all the different
interests of the country—(Hear)—notwithstanding that,
by so doing, he might subject himself to the reproach that
he did not act as sonic particular interests in the country
might wish.—(Hear.)
Mr. COBBETT said that before he proceeded to make
any observations on this particular question, he must say
a word or two about what had fallen from an Hon. Mem.
ber respecting the corn laws. The Corn Law Bill had
always bad his opposition, not because it was unjust in
itself, but because of the eff.-ct it produced on the Govern-
ment and the country. When that Bill was first brought
in, an Hon. Gentleman, who was now Member for the
south division of Wiltshire, was one of its chief sup-
porters. The landlords generally supported it, as they
thought it was a boon to the agricultural interest. He
had no doubt of their good intentions--they thought the
measure would lie of advantage to them.—(A laugh.)
They were mistaken. He had addressed, in the course of
last year, nearly half a million of persons, and all, or
almost all, thought that the corn laws had been passed to
tax the people for the benefit of the landlords—that the
laws were, in fact, a means for taking out of the pockets
of the people a large sum of money to put it into the
pockets of the landlords ; and that, therefore, it was most
unjust. He had endeavoured, and he believed successfully
—(Hear)—every where to show them that that was an
injustice towards the landlords. He believed that the
landlords would be glad to get rid of these laws. The
corn laws were represented to be something new. Why
there hail been corn laws in England since the time
of Edward the Third, and no one thought then, or long
afterwards to talk of the tax on foreign corn as unjust.
It was believed to be for the good of the country.
Then there was the American Government. Nobody
would suppose that that Government would levy a tax to
benefit a particular class at the expense of all the rest of
the people. Yet there had been a tax on corn in the
United States from the first moment of the Federal Go-
vernment till the year 1824—a tax of 20 cents, upon the
bushel of wheat, Winchester measure, and a tax of 10
cents upon the bushel of oats of Winchester measure.—
(Hear.) His constituents had desired his colleague and
himself to pledge themselves to vote against the corn laws,
and they had distinctly told the people that they would not
do so, unless some of the burdens were removed from the
land.—(Hear, hear.) They would only give the pledge
upon that condition. The Hon. and respectable, and, he
might add, the venerable—(A laugh)—Member for Hert-
fordshire, had favoured them with his opinions on this
question, and had said that he should oppose the motion,
although he represented a county where more barley was
grown thou in any other county. To be sure he would;
but then Hertfordshire was no more concerned ha it than
Lancashire; for though the barley was grown in Hert-
fordshire, the beer made from it was drunk in Lancashire.
The respectable Member for Hertfordshire had said that
the outcry against the window tax was most mistaken, for
that the landlords, not the tenants, paid the window tax.
He might as well say that thelandlords paid the probate duty
on the wills of their tenants when they died.—(A laugh.)
If that were so, then the landlords paid the male tax too.—
(Hear, hear.) Faith, then, we were in error indeed,
and when the chopsticks complained of the high price of
the beer they were drinking, the boy who served it could
say, " Oh, you are wrong, the landlords pay the tax and
not you."—(Aliugh.) That was going so near the
verge of absurdity, that it might be said to be absurdity,
even in the presence of the honourable person for whose
age one had so great a respect.—(A laugh.) He had for
years past prayed to the Lord to soften the hearts of the
Ministers, and induce them to take off the malt tax. He
had for years together endeavoured to get them to take off
the salt tax, and in that he had been successful. Now,
if the Noble Lord would take off the malt tax, he would
consent to a compromise with the Noble Lord, but he
must take it all off, for half of it would be of no service.
It was a most vexatious tax. The Hon. Member for
Lincolnshire had told them truly, that in his county, the
price of the barley amounted to less than the duty paid on
converting it into malt. Suppose the barley was 20s. a
quarter, as it was in Narfolk the other day, the duty was
20s. Sd., that made the quarter of malt 40s. Sd., but
'lie malt was selling for 60s. a quarter. There was the
injury to the people. That it was which made this tax
an object of universal dislike, and that it was which
should make the Noble Lord take off this tax in preference
to others. It was true that the maltster took some of
t.:is 19s. 4d. ; and two or three families of idlers were
kept at every malthouse; but whatever the maltsters
got, hardly paid the vexation, the tantalization, be
experienced from the Excise and its officers. He could
not wet the barley as he pleased—he could not put it on
the couch when and how he liked—in short, he could do
nothing at a time when it was most advantageous or con-
venient for him to do it. lie had always said that the
English Excise was worse than the Spanish Inquisition ;
and he was sure that if all the victims of the Exchequer,
for the last ten years, were assembled in Palace-yard (if
indeed Palace-yard would hold them), the sight of them
would absolutely frighten the House. The officers of the
Excise, it was well known, were not the most moderate of
men; they were, in fact, saucy, rude, overbearing jacks
in office.—(Fleur, bear, hear.) The duty ought to be
taken off altogether. A bushel of barley would make a
bushel of malt, and pay for the malting. The 19s. did
not go into the Exchequer ; so that, though the people
paid thirteen millions, the Exchequer did not get more
than five or six millions, especially after the expense of
collecting had been paid. It was a most ruinous and
mischievous tax. It was mischievous in its moral effect—
it throve young people especially from the larm-house to the
public-house; and he had been told by many farmers that
they did not keep their men in their houses because of time
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they
aerdyrtno,yonte.,:f
m
es
beer at the farmers occasioned. They might appoint a spy
for the police
oto
fyinuiludgignog andme
briarcilki a rtioio nt
police throughout the country, but that would not stop it
❑
ghethheaerpepsyt. s t
aTt eiriei
w
Were fifty years ago but by abolishing this tax.
17,
ch no
they tya
A great tinny books had appeared lately from a Society
which had a great functionary at its bead, and which called •
itself the " Society for the D ffusion of Useful Know-
ledge." These books all recommend to the people to use
spare
cpieettiypl people
odtri Et.
the diet.—(A
England
aini
Diffusion
g h.) di
nnooft
Useful
Knowledge ie
t
,
to
he sure ! The
l old
diet. Their necessities forced them to it. HetobwyuostuehletslpStae'rle-1
them what ought to be done ;—throw all the Useful
Knowledge books into the fire, and give them pots of
beer.—(Laughter.) The people had grown much poorer
within the last few years ; he recollected when he used to
see crowds of healthy and strong agricultural labourers in
the country churches, each dressed in his clean smock-

frock, and looking happy and contented. How was it
now ? There was hardly one to be seen in the churches ;
or, if there happened to be a few there, they were sure to
be found poor and miserable, and without even clean
frocks on their backs—(Hear, hear)—and all that was pro-
duced from the malt.tax.—(Hear.) He could not, how-
ever, give countenance to a proposition which he did not
consider exactly what was required, or which was
contrary to his own conviction of what was right.
That being the case, he would oppose the motion
of the Hon. Baronet because he did not go far enough
with it. He only proposed to take one half off the malt
tax. That would give neither satisfaction nor the neces-
sary relief. I f they were only to take 10s. off, the duty
and the price of the quarter of malt would still be 50s. ;
but let them take 20s. off, and the price would be only
20s. per quarter.—The Hon. Baronet had said that the

Government could not spare so much. He (Mr. C.) did
not know where the Hon. Baronet got this information,
but it was incorrect. He (Mr. Cobbett) was not in the
secrets of the Government, but he could tell the Hon.

Baronet, that they could spare the whole duty ; and that
they would do just as well without it as they do now that
that they have it, if the House chose to take it from them.
He did not think, that if the motion of the Hon. Baronet
were agreed to, the 'mister would take ss. off the price
of the quarter of malt, and he would therefore oppose it ;
but if he still would agree to alter it, and propose to take
the whole duty off malt, he would have his (Mr.Cobbetes)
support. If, however, the motion of the Hon. Baronet
were carried, he pledged himself on some future day to
move for the repeal of the remainder.—(Hear.)
Mr. BENNETT explained. He denied the truth of
the allegations of the Hon. Member for Oldham. His
assertion that evening regarding him was of a piece with
other allegations which he was in the habit of making.
Mr. CURTEIS called on the Members for all large
towns to join the agriculturists in supporting the motion
of the Hon. Baronet. He considered the motion of the
utmost consequence to the agricultural labourer. It was
of greater consequence to the tenants than to the landlord.
—(Hear.) He hoped that the motion would be carried,
or at all events, that there should be such a respectable
minority as would show that the feeling of the whole
country was opposed to the tax. Though he always sup-
ported Ministers when he thought them in the right, he
had no hesitation in opposing them when wrong. He
wou►d accordingly oppose them on the present question.
He hoped that the Hon. Baronet would press his motion
to a division.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS looked upon the repeal of the tax

upon malt as necessary in a moral point ofview. In the

manufacturing districts,the effect of the great consumption
of ardent spirits was dreadful. He thought it most de-
sirable, therefore, that it should be repealed, in order to
prevent the immense consumptio❑ of ardent spirits, and
to bring the people back to the use of a cheap and whole-
some beverage. He wished, too, to see the people use
beer, not in the public-houses, as the present high prices
forced them to do, but in their domestic circles. As a
Member for a large mercantile constituency, and well
knowing their wishes, he could say that they were most
anxious for the repeal of the malt tax, not only on ac-
count of the relief which it would give to themselves, but
as an act of justice to the agriculturists.—(Hear.)
Mr. R. PALMER said, that it had been insinuated in
the former part of the evening, that a motion, brought
forward by a Noble Marquis, and seconded by him, had
been brought forward with a view to embarrass the Mi-
nistry. He denied that such was the case. He had seen
a statement in the newspapers that morning, however,
which, if true, showed that other persons could bring
forward motions with the view falsely attributed to the
Noble Marquis. But he admitted that he (Mr. Palmer)
did ❑ot believe the statement. It was said, that when a
deputation lately waited on the Noble Lord opposite
(Lord Althorp), to ask for the repeal of the assessed taxes,
the answer of the Noble Lord was, " I cannot do it;"
and when asked why he refused to repeal those taxes, now
that he was in office, while he voted against them when
in the Opposition, the Noble Lord was represeuted to have
said, '• I did it to embarrass the Government.—(Hear.)
If, therefore, the Noble Marquiss had brought his motion
forward with the intention of embarrassing the Government,
he was not the only one who could do so. He objected
to the tax upon malt, because it fell more particularly
on the working classes. The rich man had his wines, and
did not feel the burden ; but the poor man had nothing
but his malt. There was no tax the repeal of which would
give so much relief as that upon malt, He was aware of
the loss which the repeal of the malt tax would be to the
Government; but the time was come when the Chancellor
of the Exchequer should try a bold experiment, as the
present system did not give satisfaction, to give them a
new shape.—( Hear, hear.) It was from this feeling that
he, (Mr. P.) on a former night, supported the motion of
of the Hon. Member for Worcester.

Lord ALTHORP said, with regard to the statement
mentioned by the Hon. Member for Berkshire, as having
appeared in the ❑ewspapers, the Hon. Member was per-
fectly right in supposing that he (Lord Altborp) had not
made use of the words attributed to him. The facts were
there—he (Lord Althorp) was asked by the deputation,
why he had voted for the repeal of taxes which he now
refused to repeal ? His answer was, that if they looked
into his Parliamentary conduct at that period, they would
see that he had voted for the repeal of a great number of
taxes, which he now considered indispensable, on the
ground that he ought to vote against taxes generally, be-
cause I e thought the expenditure of the Government un-
justifiable, and that the only way of procuring a reduction
of the expenditure was, by a reduction of the taxes.—
(Hear, hear.) It should be remembered that there was a
large surplus revenue at that time, which he had always
thought wrong policy ; and be voted for the reduction of
many taxes, in order to get rid of that surplus revenue.
Mr. ItUTHVEN thought that the adoption of a pro-
perty tax was advisable.

Mr. BARRON could not vote for a property tax;
neither could he, in present circumstances, vote for the
reduction of the malt duty, even though he was himself a
landed proprietor. He asked bow the expenditure could
be reduced to the amount of 2,500,0001., with the pro-
spect of war in the East, with Holland, and with Portu-
gal ? He could see no probability of a reduction of the
expenditure, and he should, therefore, vote against the re-
duction of the malt duty.
Captain GORDON felt disappointed that no relief had
been given by the budget to the agricultural interest. It
had been said that the reduction of the duty on tiles and
taxed carts was a relief to agriculturists ; but in the part
of the country with which he was connected there were
neither tiles nor taxed carts—(A laugh)—so that there
the relief wAs not felt. He hoped that some reduction
would be mule in the duty on malt.

Mr. CONNELL said, that the only way to obtain a
reduction of expenditure, was by taking away the resources
of the Government. Lie thought, besides, that as the
consumption would increase on account of the reduction
in price, the revenue would not suffer much on account of
the reduction moved for by the Hon. Baronet. As he was
on his legs, he would say that the impressio❑ on many of
the Members of the Deputation which waited on the Noble
Lord, was, that the Noble Lord's answer was shaped as
stated at the meeting.
Mr. HUME reminded the House that when the duties
on Spirits and other articles were reduced, the revenue
increased. He was sure that the loss to the revenue by
the reduction of half the duty on malt, would not amount
to more than 800,0001. or 900,000/. He thought that
the malt duty should be reduced to the amount which it
was before 1802, when it was laid on as a war tax. He
would prefer that an additional tax (if necessary) should
be laid upon spirits, as he thought it of great consequence
to bring back the people to the use of Beer.
Mr. LLOYD expressed a hope that, in return for the
support which he doubted not the manufacturers would
give the agriculturists on this occasion, the latter would
unite with them in forcing the repeal of taxes o❑ articles
of consumption, and thus compel the Ministers to insti-
tute a property tax.

Mr. HODGES was well acquainted with the feeling of
the county which he represented (Kent), and from what
he knew of that feeling, he should certainly support the
motion of the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Lincoln_
shire, regretting only that it did not go the full extent of
a total repeal.—(Hear, hear.) lie must confess, how-
ever, it was rather curious to hear those gentlemen on
the other side of the House, who had for so many years
supported every Administration, now calling on the
Ministers for remission of taxes.—(Hear, hear.) It
would have been much better if, years ago, they had not
joined in imposing them. He did not think, however,
that Ministers could do better than to take these gentle•
men at their words, and to place the establishment of the
country on a footing more suited to the desires and neces-
sities of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. BARING, who spoke in so low a tone of voice
as to be scarcely audible, said the plan of taxation which
Lord Althorp had adopted was nut such an one as was
suited to the condition of a great country like this. In
voting for the motion of the Hon. B.ronet, therefore, he
littleh
,aliitalinntiainaeldia.ndoßnutthoasseheprsianwcipbluets
chance ehoafd
inducingitlierto
he Ministry to adopt them, and as it seemed to be a
scramble between the Gentlemen who met at the Crown
and Anchor and the agricultnral interest who should have
the benefit of the anticiFated surplus, and believing that
the greater distress existed amongst the agricuhural than
amongst the manufacturing population, he should vote for
giving the benefit of that surplus to the former. He did

not C 1 fors i°
lowed that the revenue should be red
alt ive°' Ded
this on the principle of giving
where relief aai6~
uced
first place, a reduction of the tsx on wpslectt
wanted. At the same time h
its consumption, and he thought the u
ith os
place w
from the inquiries that were taking Hit be
beer shops, that a part of the duqr.lnes
thole
!JP
tageously apportioned to the liquor sold g
, hear.", ,
—(Lud cries of " No, no," arose` lie!r, .d crt
Lord JOHN RUSSELL amidsteslonis_eo,
question. He certainly would not have tr_orPtGe
attention of the House, had it not been
which he felt at the extraordinary speech
able:002o
been delivered.—(Loud cheers.) It was 0,004
just observation, that new proselytes alwaY:o
greito
tremes ; but that any man should g
s &Seiler, 14
treme one way, to so great an extreme
For several years past, he had heard the.
Essex declare, as indeed he did some nig!'" ~eespitlx"
reedliiedf
deedonly
calculated
ans o of saving
et:vine:Cc:is some
country
t o 1:::::th.:00.1(eCf:
large sinking fund, to which not less roan‘
per annum should be appropriated.
not burden the people for a sinking fun
Friend, taking another course of p--01ilitibru;atlidi:;:,",
the difficulties resulting from a deficit, a,'.roillN
surplus of revenue beyond an expenditure o„fr'F..so/1
less." But what said the Hon. Member went
he say, " keep up the taxes—retain a suffieie
somas
Oh, no, he said, "If I cannot have 3.) ,V
b,000,000/., let me have a deficit."--(Ch,ect: the
ing to the statement of his Noble Friend robef'
there would be a surplus of 1,500,0001•
Hie
proposed to take off rather snore than 1,00Orropoit?
Honourable Member for Lincolnshire, in ,i).tipoe
take off half the malt tax, asked for a reolou.6oo
amount of 2,400,0001. This was the Pr°Po,l,
the Hon. Member for Essex—the great Pair sltusf
porter of the sinking fund—thought it en 000
his line of policy to adopt.—(Cheers.) T°B Hots
tleman had told them, when the motion of o
the,`,
bee for Whitehaven came on for discussion, but the
received many letters from his constituency, ore,
which this produced on his mind was only t°,o se'
they were grossly ignorant : but on the Preeebe
he had thrown aside all previous notions";
away all the conclusions of his enlighfe°:a
tiee
had condescended to become the represents help),
worst and most besotted ignorance.--(getn pee
, of
enter on the financial year with the defioie°,'
lion, was what, he hoped, no Minister of this 000,
would ever consent to, and what no Houseo„cs of
would ever sanction. Tt e necessary consatitbe
a proceeding would be, to make the faith°, 010°'
suspected at home—to diminish its rePotatti°d pee°
and to place us in such a situation BS W°°,,,,bichl(l
deprive us of that high and noble station -
hitherto held among the nations of the world., ht
thought the establishments of the country Ogiopefel
ciently reduced to meet the deficiency Weigati,..g
consistent in voting for the resolution of the
for Lincolnshire. It was, however, equally
him, as one of those who brought forWardd hieee'o
statement for the year—and who had prove 000:
not by words, their desire of conducting taet° 910,0 r
of the country in the full spirit of econotnY'r6lsee
be thought it impossible to make so large 3 fet the
• ,t
our establishments as would enable us t°
ciency which would be occasioned by pasei°,.gA
tion. There was certainly one other inet'.-th 000
been sated most fairly—he might say WI tr, ,
fairness—by the Hon. Member for Colebesiteogeillt
that this, with some other taxes, might be B„ptiietri,
duced, and a tax upon income or property tbes„
(Hear.) He admitted that it was the duty is"rt
after having provided for the national faith 9°llle per
to consider what ways and means of raising the
taxation would prove least burdensome °
If the house considered such means less elk
l
than those which at present existed, /ige, hoc,
course their duty to adopt that suggestion .---wereo ;
Certainly, if the whole question of taxation inclinde
be raised for the first time, he said he eiglit
sh!e Po
favour the sentiments promulgated in a 010 ;:
of the late Mr. Huskisaon, in 1830. But '-inefe,, ;
-d
if they were now to enter into such a c°°l-, ife"
firmly believed that the hopes of the 11°°;-,000
disappointed, and that the discontent and iff";bich'‘
would ensue upon the imposition of a tax deoteei
rience had proved so obnoxious, would preP,°
the satisfaction to which it might give rise pee
Upon the whole, then, he would leave the Sher °,;
the House, believing, fortified as he was L'Y
p 906;;
the other night, that the House would not on eh dig
lend itself to a vote by which the national fait"
rendered liable to suspicion. •„pti9Pi,)
Mr. A. RARING explained. He bad dis°„t",oA
that, in voting for the resolution of the Hon• Yeh bef:,
had by no means abandoned the principles g
hitherto maintained with regard to the S°,4iiigiiste'j:e
But as he found it impossible to convince '
the propriety of adopting his sentiments, be
with them according to their own princifflee* ;
Sir C. BURRELL said he should vote far 0 004,
Baronet's motion, but not with an expeeteti:
would lead to any deficiency of the revenue; °lto)°,
teary, he believed that the increase of the On red'i,
malt would be equivalent to the amount of d°,:fapes°
An Host. MEMBER, amidst loud calls of te for
olstlahtliiie,C(TeltirhintOedti naauF:osroe'tofrsruaismssotiehuriega
hndtu honest
divided,s classes.
ingi
iwb
)la.se when
et
eeirteit 11653;
yeonoetnastkmemnealont,ff, hawesitchhoeurnlditi,ecniiiieetii::beste;il
then
William
ioti
The Against it
announcement.. Majority
haegaimnsati3)l:aliyistvve;4;i:c:poffedi
general and prolonged cheering. be
„pi
Mr. ROBINSON then rose and said, as
who voted in the majority on this occasion, 1-101,te°isir
his duty to state that the vote he had given
dictated by any feeling of hostility towards h',9010"-h'i
hpy
nl
not
ealt couldv
hise
nrno m
v honestlye Government.—(A
intention.t
n (established,
andtaHlbaleuis:vhea.ds)a aware
conscientiouslyiaa Gentlemen tttlhae
tbetstatayitiseenft,:i
igtriii:esettbooetifieroi
decision must lead to some embarrassment Pf„injif
er
He considered, however, that a most irar'l"li f
°
taxation, in its present extent and degree, djos', t"
and he called on the landed gentlemen sarbo 115,3010e:c
that the Representatives of the trading and nfds
towns entertained an unworthy jealousy t°el,.,rpoet
terest, but who had now received their ser'esdiii:(
reduction of the malt duty, would be equally "
for
in a few days, the Hon. Baronet, the Member b00.,0
of London, would propose a total repeal of Lbetiolij'l't•
window duty, to lend their assistance for t'',;
these taxes. It would then, when that noess-pof "f,t`
carried, be his duty—if the Government did
tioo.cii
proposition to that effect—to submit a 111' r (le'?
adoption of some means to supply wbafele„oef
might be necessary, after the enforcement of - for
ticable reduction in the public expenditure. the i 0 1
Lard ALTHORP said that he was certain soo or
of the hon. mover of the resolution was not of bit f
the Govermnant but to carry a measure °ueo
id
Notwithstanding, he admitted that what WI is .
j 0
that night would place his Alajeety's Ministerjepifii°oe
oh considerable embarrassment. After the, rity 000
the House had just come to, though tbe 114(,),- licit
very large, he should feel ashamed of himself rei°
the least opposition or objection to having t'e
carried into effect.—(Ctieers.) on he aft
p
The original resolution—" That the do`,o f"-
reduced from 20s. Bd. to 10s. a quarter"!"- ) 5
from the Chair, and carried.—(Loud cheerlsoielo
Lord ALTHORP postponed the motion °6ll,tes
a Committee of Supply on the Ordnaoce
the 1
Monday next. hist re
Sir JOHN KEY presented apetition agad„,,, fig
and window tax, from the inhabitants of I,°°
re.;

yesterday. , be
The SPEAKER decided that it could 001Y 30,
as the petition of Sir John Key, the CO3lOO
was so read by the Clerk, amid tile laughter
The House adjourned at Twelve o'clock.

EXPEDITION.—The early sitti"gst.g 'fey'
of
House of Commons, and the exertions of
papers, have lately transferred to the
olatte P liatai
r a 13rgii-taf!',
of the interest whic the monopoly f ar
telligence formerly enabled the morning P3Perhid'
mind. The lateness and correctness with
eening pipers bring down their debates in thee",
editions is surprising, and The San seems in ref(
spects to outstrip all its competitors. We haditirgrii
able instance of this in Friday's debate. The I,'" 040' i
of Lou: ALTHORP'S speech was down in White"- di/
tsliry:rvne:ixbapyere..
uss,,Anbsaudaten
uts
on thtifiust
icor,rn,decinaoa,firotyl:i:c oewuxeresreitnioao)n,fstol,blve,beiloirsfil
t‘so Ali-tubers of Parliament seized the latest Wl' 00ey
lowed by the post to minute down the par
,end tb ,11!
reduction of taxation and of saving, and to ',e%
their constituents in Whitehaven ; and The Su'otiPil",
had Lord ALTHORP'S speech, figures and O° tleill4
written out, transferred to type, printed and dil;tr,,ii'
the post clown to within an hour at the vaYi'
time when those two gentlemen wrote.--- '
Herald.

Or
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ha(' A;i
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to 01
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expeCt4'l the
enue;
the c°°'.,
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°3l)re beat

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reri
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1.001100,

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,
t°
,titer of

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Of
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of p°l
ter a 13`;,, '(":,
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35 p,ver,hid
with se"
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„gr 5
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