The Sun.
London, England, 1802-05-04 00:00:00

I

HOUSE OF PEERS,

MONDAY, MAY 3.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

MONDAY; MAY 3.

I • • -

IMPER IdL PARLIAMENT.

PREV lout to the reading of Prayers, their Lordships re-
solved into a Select Committee of Privileges, which was held
irithe Prince's Chamber, and ;having sat a short time, they
entered the House, and Prayers were read.
Counsel were heard in continuation, and at considerable
length, relative to the Scotch Appeal, I log v. Thwaites and
others;—after which the further hearing at the case was ad-
journed till Thursday,. •
Marquis ConNwALLis was sworn and took his scat.
The Bills before the House were forwarded in their re-
speelive st4es.
Tile French Wine Importation Bill, the Exports and Im-
ports Duty Bit', and a number of Private Bills were brougl-,t
up trom the Commons, the greater part of which were read a
first time.

The order for the second reading of Lane's Divorce
which stood for Thursday nex, was, on the motion of Lord
NV A LSI N C-11 Am, finally discharged.
Some private business was then di:posed of, and the House
adjourned until to-morrow.

A new Writ was ordered for the Borough of Newark-, in
t/ste 7'00;11 of THOMAS MANNERS SUTTON, Esq. who has
accepied the 0 ttice of Solicitor General.
A Petition was presented from the Inhabitants of Port
Sligo, against the Bill tor improving the Harbour of Port
Sligo, which was ordered to lie op the Table till the second
reacting, acid Counsel were ordered to be heard for and against
the Bill.

Alderman Lus It N G TON movd for leave, to bring in a.Bill
for regulati'ng the Fish-Market, Nvbieh was granted.
To, Irish linen Ttianufadure Bill was ordered to be printed.
The. Scotch Militia Bill was read 'a
first time, and ordered
to be read a second time to-morrow.

The Sugar Drawback Bill went through a Comtnittteof
the whole House, and the Report ordered to be received to-
morrow.

Mr. COR RY brought up a Bill for the better encourage-
ment of Irish Mariners, which was read a first time, and or-
tiered to be read a second time to-morrow.
The Report of the Committee of Supply, on the Sums to
raised by Lottery, was brought up.
On the Motion of Mr. O'll A RA, the second reading of the
Port Sligo Harbour Bill was put off to Thursday.
The Report of the Committee'on the Militia Bill was or-
dered to be taken into consideration to-morrow. -
Several Accounts relative to the Irish Expenditure were
presented, and ordered to lie on the Table.

Mr. WINDHAM rose, in consequence of a nm-
tice on a former day, to lay before the House the
grounds on which he thought a Motion might
be founded, relative to the Definitive Treaty. He
did not intend at present to make any Motion, but
only to give notice of a day, at a proper distance,
on which he .should olfer such a Motion to the
House. His Majesty's Ministers had said that it
was not their intention to make any Motion on the
subject, as it was unusual to make any inquiry into
the Definitive Treaty, after the Preliminary one had
been so amply discussed. Whether the rule was
invariable or not, or whether it was a rule which
would be more honoured in the breach than the
observance, he should not enquire; but certainly
it went on the supposition, that the House was
bound by the opinion they had given with resped
to the Preliminary Treaty—a supposition which
he, and those who should concur in his Motion,
could by no means agree to ; so much the contrary,
that they maintained that the House had a right to
alter their opinion,. even if the Definitive Treaty
entirely agreed with the Preliminary, much more
so when they essentially differed. That the latter
was the case in the present instance, he should now
endeavour to prove ; and, in doing so, would fol-
low that order which he considered most perspicuous
and least intricate. He was willing to treat the
affair with all .that candour and fairness which
Ministers required ; but, if what fell from a
Noble Lord (Lord HAWKESBURY), on a former
day, meant that the whole discussion should be
crowded together into one debate, he could by no
means assent to such a method. It was like a
Counsel in a Court of Law being forced to sum up
every point that was to be considered by the Jury,
before he had examined the Witnesses. In a simi-
lar predicament should he be placed, if he was
forced to sum up the whole Discussion before he
had an opportunity of calling for and examining
such Papers as might tend to throw light on each
particular point. Whether the Ministry chose now
or hereafter to enter on the discussion, belonged to
them ; he should place his Motion at such a dis-
tance of time as to give them full leisure to prepare.
As the most convenient order for shewing the reasons
on which he intended to found his Motion, he should
divide, the whole subjeft into four Heads. The
first Head comprehended such points as were un-
known at the time of the Preliminary Treaty,
though it appears they were then determined on.
Under this class he should rank the Cession of the
Isle of Elba, the new boundaries fixed to French
Guiana, and the complete cession of Louisiana to
the French Government. With regard to the Isle
of Elba, two things were to be taken into consi--
deration. The importance of the place itself was
the first objet ; and who would not allow its great
importance, when we considered its excellent
bour, its impregnable fortress, and the advan-
tageous station which it afforded to our vessels. - In
the second place, the manner in which it was ceded

was not of much less importance. By the Treaty
of Lunevilie, when Tuscany was given up, the
Elba was retained. But our dexterous enemy fell.
upon a new method of obtaining possession of it.
As an Algebraist, in order to render his quan-
titie4 more manageable, be divides them into por-
tions when his board becomes .ineumbered ; so
France parcelled out her territories into subordinate
Republics and Kingdoms, and by that means obtained
possession of Elba, while the cession appeared to
be made to the Duke-King she had set up in Tus-
cany. Elba, thus ceded to France, strengthens her
hands in a future war, and remains either to be re-
taken by us, or to do us infinite mischief. This
article alone, without any other, makes the
finitive Treaty a' new question, entirely different
from the Preliminaries. The new boundaries fixed
to the French possessions in Guiana, furnished ano-
.-ther instance. To preserve the integrity of their
'possessions in this quarter, had long been reckoned
an objet of the utmost importance by the Portu-
guese. But he would not enter into this subjea. at
present. Leaving the importance of- the objeCt it-
self to future comnideration, he should only advert
to it as anotlger instance of the bad faith of France.
The integrity of Portugal had been expressly, Se-
el:red by the Preliminaries. This article had been
lireccily violated by the Dcfiuldve Treaty and in

this affair Ile was at a loss whether most to admire,
the duplicity of the French Negotiators or the fa-
cility of the English in submitting to such imposi-
tion. The new boundary removed none of the in-
conveniences that were dreaded from the former
boundaries they pretended to ; and we had only one
fraud for another. In order to rise in the climax,
we must next turn our eyes to Louisiana. If we
dired our view either Southward or Northward,
the immense advantages given up to France by the
cession of this extensive country, must confound
us. On the North, we behold America exposed
to she domineering spirit of France, which she
must tamely submit to, as she had no means of
defence. What would be the-consequence ? Her
fears would make her court France by join-
ing in enmity to this Country, and the stronger
her fears, the greater would the effais of that
enmity be. On the South, France had no limits
set her, hut her own will. Such was the situa-
tion of Louisiana, that the whole wealth- of
the New World was thrown open, and must flow
into the hands of France. The second division of
the subject comprehended those points which appear
to have been known, but the consequences 'not
weighed at the time of the Preliminary Treaty.
If the catalogue of these was not numerous, this
was made up by their importance. Under this class
he should comprehend the Italian Republic, and the
Armament to the West Indies. He asserted, that
though none of the Contrading Parties had been
concerned in the formation of this Republic, yet
so great was the change- ntroduced by it into the
state of Europe, that the Preliminaries might fairly
be considered as done away by it ; there was no
period in the history of Europe, in which such a
change might not have justified, and would not have
produced a War. What then shall we say when
this change is made by one of the Contraffing Par-
ties, and interposed between a Preliminary and a
Definitive Treaty? " But," slid he, " we are now
so subdued by France, so thoroughly humbled, that
all this passes unnoticed. This is-a painful subject,
and I am unwilling to dwell upon it. But let us
consider the situation in which the New Constitu_
tion of this Republic places our Allies. What must
Austria feel when she sees that feeble barrier which
had been opposed to the encroachments of France,
now gone to increase the strength of her enemy ?
But she feels her danger too much to lave resolu-
tion to oppose it." He next adverted to the
French Armament sent to the \Vest Indies. He
said, he did not intend to dwell on this subjth, but
only to shew that this Armament altered our state
in the West Indies ; and when we considered how
greatly this must increase the French influence
there, he would venture to say, that if the conee_
.. quences had been foreseen, it would not have been
overlooked- in the Preliminaries. The third divi-
sion of the subjea comprehended those points in
which the Definitive Treaty departed from the Pre-
liminaries. The first article he adverted to, was
the expellees of the Prisoners. A large debt by the
Preliminaries came to be due to us from France. In
order to secure it to us, we had heard of Isles to be
mortgaged to us by France, but no one that knew
France, would believe such chimeras. The truth
is, France refused to pay the debt, and we had not'
courage to demand it. It was proper, however,
that some plausible pretext should be fallen upon in
order to cover our weakness : and it was to -be.
wished, we had fallen on some one that exposed us
to less contempt and ridicule. We were not only to
pay the expenses of our own Troops, but thOse of
Russia ; the new cloathing and equipping of the
Russian Prisoners, was all at our expence ;es-France
had the credit of making a present to the Erriperor
of Russia, at the expence of our degraded and ridi-
culed Country. The next alteration respected Mal-
ta. By the Preliminaries it was to have been re-
stored to the Order, and put under the proteetion
of a Neutral Power. In the Definitive Treaty, by
a most unaccountable juggling, we had been ousted,
and France put its possession ; for he saw no reason
to doubt that this would be its fare. In restor-,
ing.it to the Order, it was necessary to consider
how the Order was to be supported. Their landed
and commercial Revenues together, did not amount,
to above 30,0001. Most of their revenues existed
out of the Island, and of these 4-eths had already
been taken away. What remained was barely suf-
ficient to maintain the Order ; where then was the
provision for Troops to garrison the Island ? The
Order itself was new-modelled. An Orde e founded
on Nobility, was changed into Tiers Etat, and our
Constitution-mongering had ended in framing Malta
after the model of France. Instead of a Neutral
Power, we had pitched upon one entirely under the
influence of France, for such, we ourselves, by this
very Article, owned Naples to be. The Treaty
obliged us to evacuate Malta in three months. It
was then to be given up to the Order, and other
Articles were added, not for our security, but
merely for the con veniency of the Maltese. With
regard to the article in which it is said, " the
Neutrality of Malta is proclaimed :" he looked upon
the word proclaimed as of doubtful import. The
word Neutrality he thought not well understood.
There are, he -said, three modes of Neutrality ; by
one mode, all ships were permitted to enter ; by
another, none were admitted ; by a third, the most,
general by far, an equal number of each nation
was permitted to enter. By the latter explanation,
which was usually adopted, when the British had
six ships there, France, and her dependants, Spain
and Holland might have the same number each ; and
France would thus have eighteen to our six ships.
Another deviation from the Preliminaries was seen
in the Cape. By the Preliminaries all ships were
to be alike admitted into the Cape ; by the Defini-
tive Treaty, the full sovereignty is given up
to the. Dutch. Holland is not restricted from
putting a French garrison into this colony ; and
when to this we add the insertion of the su-
perfluous term full srverergnty which did not
occur in the Preliminaries, the deviation cer-
tairrly gives ground to just apprehensions. His
fourth division comprehended these points which
had been added in the Definitive, And not at
all mentioned in the Preliminary Treaty. The
most prominent among these was the total non_revi-
val of all former Treaties. Some- people indeed
thought we should gain as enrich as we should lose
by this non-revival hilt for his own part he could
not see how this could be. He could not apprehend

what onerous obligations the nnii-revivaJ of these
Treaties released us from, as they had all been made
as a barrier against France, and a proteelion to the
other Powers. It was only in regard to France that
our former Treaties cease, by which means our
proteftions are removed and our burdens remain,
if we are to consider as such, our connexions with.
the other Powers. In such circumstances, why were
not all former Treaties rejeled in a •lump ?
We ought to have demanded time—time, in
fart, was granted us, sufficient to have considered
so important an object ; and it surely deserved se-
rious consideration, whether it would not have
been preferable to have made a seleciion of former
Treaties, than-to throw them at once aside. Many
evils arise from. this non-revival. One it included,
of the very first magnitude. Now, that we have
renounced all other advantages, those which we
retain in the East Indies should be particularly dear
to us. Our former policy had been peculiarly ten-
der on this subje6t : in the Treaty of 1783, we
had particularly provided for the security ofourCom-
merce ; and in 1787, we had acquired additional se-
curities by a Special Convention—all these securities
are now given up. If we inquire, whether we are
gainers or losers by this transaction, let us observe
the 'degree of importance which our Enemies attached
to their former claims. Before the Treaty of r 783,
these claims were a subjea of continual litigation ;
and even after that Treaty, some new claims were
so obstinately persisted in, that we were upon the
point of entering into .a War to procure the Con-
vention of 1787. These claims will now again,
of course, be renewed, and the field of battle is the
only court where they can he decided. Other
rights have also been destroyed by this non-revival,
but they disappear, they shrink to nothing before
this enormo,ls one mentioned. Such was the cutting
of logwood in the Bay of Honduras, to which our
sole right arose from Conventions now superseded.
The trade on the coast of Africa, and still more
our trade to the East Indies, of which the Dutch
were always peculiarly jealous, was now deprive'd.
of all its securities. He
.theo predicted many
evils from the non-revival of former Treaties.—
He contended that all the dependents of France,
being continually protected by her, might be
considered as one with herself ; while our
Allies had been shamefully deserted by us. • He
said, that the provision stipulated for the Prince of.
Orange was nugatory, as another Convention had
determined that his provision should not take place
in Holland, the only 'country to which it could be
looked for. He said that we had allowed even our
honour to be insulted. A whip had been applied
to the posteriors of the Nation, and the seat of
honour attacked. The Dutch Flag no longer bow-
ed to ours. We did not give this up as a free aiti
of grace, but as from fear of France. A curious paper
that lately appeared in an article from HAland on
the Definitive Treaty, strewed how much the Dutch
exulted in what he now lamented. A French pa- ,
per of yesterday had stated almoSt the same grounds, •
in resped to Malta particularly, which he had as.
serted to be so much in favour of France. . After
conjuring the House to attend seriously to these
subjects, he concluded with giving notice, that
to-morrow fortnight he should move, " That the
House do on that.day take . into consideration the
Treaty signed at Amiens, between Great Britain,
France, Spain,.and the Dutch Repulalic."

- •
The Motion being put,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, it was perfedlv proper and becoming on the
part of his Right Hon. Friend who had to-night
proposed a deviation from the established practice
• of the House upon the :;übjee.: of a Definitive.
Treaty, and had entered with a minuteness,
and particularity into the ground with which he
proposed that deviation. He had stated very mi-
nutely the ground on which he objected to the
Treaty of Peace now before the House, and to
which, of course, he meant to object to hereafter,
in the discussion which he had proposed to take
place upon that subjed ; in . this his Right Hon.
Friend was right, since he did so °hied. It was
not his intention to comment, at this time, on all
the topics brought forward by his. Right Hon.
Friend ; he did not think it incumbent on him, at
this moment, to meet with exatfiness all the points
which his Right Hon. Friend had instituted in the
present stage of the proceedings, because that would
nor, in his opinion, be necessary in the course of his
endeavours to satisfy the House that the Motion
. of his Right Hon. Friend ought not to be ac-
ceded to in one particular, and in one only, for he
had but one objeCtion to it, and that he should pre-
sently state to the House. He apprehended he need
say but little in vindication of the course pursued,
by His Majesty': Government relative to the Treaty
of Peace, in not moving any thing upon it them-
selves. He did not hold it to he consistent with
his duty to depart from an established practice in
that particular, which pradice did not waria.rpt
Motion from Government, in that House, upon the
subject of a Definitive Treaty ; he had pursued the
usual course, and he trusted the House would ap_
prove it.—Having said this, he would now assure the
House he felt great satisfaction at the Motion now
made, in substance, because it afforded to His Ma.,
jesty's Ministers an opportunity of entering into an •
explanation, and which he trusted would he accom- .
partied by a complete justification of .every part of .
their conduct during the late Negotiation at Amiens,
and the advice they gave to His Majesty for conclud-
ing it, as it had been concluded by the Signature and
Ratification of the Definitive Treaty now before
the House ; for this opportunity he certainly feltJ-.1
obligation .to his Right Hon. Friend, since, without
some such Motion as
.this, no such opportunity could
be afforded. - His Right Hon. Friend had rested
his arguments in fav, ur.o: his Motion upon four
points : he wished to call the attention of the House
to those points, which, though existing at the time
of the Signature of the Preliminaries, were not then
know° to the House. The first point he conceived
to be this, he laid a stress upon it as such, that there
were things existing at the time of agreeing to the
Preliminaries, which were not known to the House
of Commons. He begged the House to recoiled
what he had already said, that it was not his in-
tention to enter with .particularity into all the
points made by his Right Honourable Friend ;
he should only touch some of them slightly,
leaving an ample discussion for them. at a fu.l

trite day, but he felt it necessary to SI 3 (CV(
'words on some of the topics [weight forward t 0,..
'day, to obviate the impression which die speech a
his Right Honourable Friend was celeulated 10 prof.
duce on the minds of some person.:,—His Rigig
Hon. Friend had said, that Porto Ferrajo was sur-
rendered to the French, and he stated this to be is
direst contradiction of the express -stipulations of the.
Treaty of Lmeville. This was an act that was not
done by His Majesty's Ministers—the surrender of
the King of Etruria was a concession made
by a Sovereign Power, fully competent t(:) make
such a concession.—This and many other points he,
begged the House to consider he was now onlY
mentioning, to spew that he had not past them over
in his attention to the Speech of his R;ght 11°'
Friend, but that he did not mean to discuss diem,
they being
to be reserved for a future day
Right Hon. Friend had laid some stress on the
French territory in Guiana.—He referred in ibis case
to a conversation which took place in that House 01).-
on the subject of the Treaty of Badajos and of the
Treaty of Madrid ; it was then stated that the
French territory in this part of the globe was t° be
limited by the Treaty of Madrid, and not by that ot
Badajos, and it was nude a subject of discontent hi
some Gentlemen in that House on :hat account, aed
a good deal of stress was laid upon the difference be-
tween the two, that of Badajos being mach more
faet the Portuguese Government expressed, infavourable to Portugal than that of Madrid, a"( 1
in
the most explicit, that they should think thermcives
too fortunate, if we could be instrumental iv prcYzur-
irig for them, the terms specified, and havieff the
boundaries tixt as stipulated by the Treaty 0..-Bi,-2-
33j0s• His Right Hon. Friend had said,- that ti-e.
French insisted on the Treaty of Madrid, for tl'e
mere purpose of making a merit of giving it It:ft
and abandoning that Treaty. The
this country, anticipatiag the pressure -f
be felt by that country, before the knowledge- .0
the signing the Preliminary Treaty, and the clt
terms
cessions likely. to be made in consequence of flits
e of
agreed
uts rpe,nm hb possessions
ttte in
of Guiana
Badajos, ju pressure, made an express stipulation that- the 10
,6
European boundary should be fixed be the Tre3l',
of Madrid. His Right Hon. Friend laid grea"
stress, and very justly, on the estahishment
Treatyia slst,ould but hete
at
the part of France in Louisiana. He had 215° stftli;
that the,FrenchPower would now put into clallie.„.o
whole of the Continent of South America. Ilet
ready- to agree with his Right Hon. Friend, raa
the interests of Europe are materiallyii
eonnetlea
with the interests of America, both North 313
South ; but his Right Hon. Friend could not 535:'
that if the French had not the extent of Tetlit°„
.if
there which they -now possess, they could not,.it
St. Domingo were tranquil,-and affairs at rest wit
them in that quarter, by a large military focce
come formidable to either North or South Anseri/
provided the subjeds of these States were dispos_„7
to offer to them no resistance, aixl had no inctinatTe
Britain and the rest of theluroi
to maintain their independence, and provided Gleba
indifferent spectators of the scene. Certainly tto
acquisition of Louisiana was very importOt re;
France, and would certainly be looked on witt.tej, •
teem States were reo.
gret by those who wished their dominion lirf'lljoe
but that was no conclusive argument VI the
tstatedilatb thisy Rightphoisssession will Hon.g
kLe.6l.
iFveriediltedinuitsiolen
that s° ili
stated over the whole of that part of the gli°,ll.. pc~t'er It
ci.gd,
Another paint had been stated by his Peigaes''
Friend, as one on which he conceived the oior
he had made was to be justified ; which Was'ilioef
new matter had arisen upon, and new circums` c of
had attended the State of Parties since tile t'inhicil
signing the Preliminaries. Not only thtn
existed, but were not known to us at the time 01 s.oee
ing the Treaty, but many- things had appeared, psal,loi
which did not exist at that time. Upon this L-ea to
observation, his Right Hon. Friend had teeut:-oose
the state of the Italian Republic, arta the "Witli
ment which had beer sent to St. Donsing°' id 0_
regard to the first, he could only say, COu those
be otherwise - than regarded with ar ,'Ysierir 0,116
who thought the power of France too great, (If the
felt, as men least feel for the independenqe
rest of Europe, anti by none more was that s„, fof
merit felt, titan by those who had a pure alle6ii°';iihe'
the intex,ests of their County but
the matter back again to the consideration
Preliminaries of Peace, the principle of will(' igiglig
liament had at least recognized. Dia. f the
Hon. Friend mean to say that the renewal °e halt
-War would have been a measure proper to hav, he
to
recourse to, on account of the objets .ehica
adverted as having taken place between the siesgog
i°jde
the Preliminaries and the conclusion of the me • ht
rive Treaty ? He believed nor, and if ll's fideilr
Hon. Friend thought otherwise,' he was ecn/.
05 of
, 11
the good sense of the House and the f{-i5 . . .
.„Ihe . would go in a contrary a;rctl-1
~He thought so, but he might be mtstakell.,_
c Epe
Right Hon. Friend had said, that .sotne 01 0
currences between the Preliminaries and her t"
nitive Treaty were such as would, at any °,.,t that
than the present, have roused all Europe. these
it might, the fact was that aflEurope sat still a, nor
events, The different States of Europe, t_ed the-,
appear to be alarmed, but they had saatiorifriersi
.very proceedings of which his Right Hen' 0;0"
Mr. A°P
.complained so intich ; upon which a just
said he made no comment, buts was 4:14
fication to His Majesty's Ministers for not ll' °tip.
the Neg
these points a plea for the rupture of 1-10
lion ffna •t he ,renewal of the War. His Rill) great
Friend. had laid great stress tos-night,
stress had been laid within these few hip•
pool
the sailing of the Armament for natter'
the „,e
this .
Now, upon considering the- whole ofoking
all the circumstances that belonged i 0 it, reallf
at it in all its beanngs, lie shot:Too,ing
to
like to ask.every intelligent, unbiass„rs sa
this country, whether this Armament arw
In oinsijerhigi
was really matter of regret to us ?st
this subjed, the whole state of the jew.,..1-ic
Islands would immediately come into visa lo)k:
was unwilling to dwell upon this matter),"' he evo
loved 111 •jual
confident that, whether they were v
of ioivi .06
ing at the state of the West India 'slai's' a 113'
rional way, or upon the narrower Itch, wurpatt
• sent roe
interest, it would be mend-est foontll'
of the Black Government was the 030)1.

al

11,

11

. ;1. apprehensions for the safety of those posses-
Is, and he was confident that had His Majesty's
u,'l,`nisters prevented the sailing of that Armament-
iehwent to St. Domingo, it would hereafter be
matter °f sincere regret by the Public, and of deep
leP,t°ach to His Majesty's Ministers.—The third
1:1a Int alluded -to by his Right Hon.' Friend,-,n as
,',t of the departure ,from the Preliminaries,.
,i`' on which his Right Hon. Friend. had. laid
'rely considerable stress, and made use of it in sup-
port Of his Motion ; but he should be
glad' if his
fßight Hon. Friend would skew him where the cle-
:II-tire was to be found in the. Definitive_ Treaty
ic..an', the Preliminaries. He had pressed much ob,
"1-,"„,°rl to the expence of aying for the Troops of
„tc'e Emperor of' Russia. Now he w'ould ask any man
IT sober judgment, without the feeling which in-
uet'ced•that of his Right Hon. Friend, whether it
thaes not proper that those Troops, which were in
t
iliay and service, and under the direction, con.
4 ir,°'' and management of the British Government,
„cluld not in this case. be considered- in the same
nPation. as any of our own would be. if prisoners
in another Country ? With respect to Malta,
'Night lion. Friend had taken a very ample field.
ui skirt under correaion, but he very much doubted
I;lether the arrangement made respeding. Malta
s ;lot. an arrangement which was in conteinpla_
Lion a
by the late Administration, but he could con.
cicive it very possible that his Right Hononrable
tv might not have concurred, in that measure
in-'11t, he was in Administration ; but without enter_
I P into the particulars of the statement of his Right
t:en• Friend, he had the satisfaCtion to know, that
liilaltese themselves, deeply interested in the
execution of the, spirit of this Article of the
thre43', by which they. were to he maintained in
keit station, did not partake of the sentiments of
fl; Right Hon.' Friend ; theirs were those of sans.
rpro on and gratitude to Great Britain for the terms
ucured them. With regard to the word Sovereign.:
.3, upon which his' Right Hon. Friend had made
cOmments,
trlserted if it was an improper word to be
inisters
the Definitive.- Treaty, His Majesty's
ItAil had no excuse, for he believed the word
as
adopted, not by the French, but the British
it°v.ernment : With regard to the application 01
tivlrhich was to.the'Cape, it did not apply to the
orteerce, but the Shipping, and it was extended
lioji °titer Contratiing.Parties; namely, Spain and
. a and the polierof this measure might appear
1-10,;`,F.0f doubt perhaps to some, and to his Right-
'tiend of no doubt, he being convinced of its
ve;,„.`Li'riety : but he would aver, that he had con-
hest with many of those, who certainly had the
tiot/ means of being qualified to form a corral opi-
di,aci °Pon the subject, and they thought .that nofroth ,
v.tage was likely to result to Great Britain,
hisltne change which was adopted in this respea-.
slib;,ght Hon. Friend had said a great deal on the
lie h of the Treaty, as to the omissions of
1114crid said, it did nor renew any of these Com-
tust-`3l Arrangements which it had always been
tip,-,°4l4tY to ienew. Great pains had been taken
ti 2.: that subject, to set off the supposed disadvan,
at"; us, of these omissions. Upon this, he could
the ',,esent Only say, that if the principle upon which
4vith reaty was agreed to was erroneous, it was
iii,Z4t any plea or excuse erroneous on tbe part of
ate-•,"Aajesty's Ministers,, for this omission was not an
jestluental one, it was advisedly so settled ; His Ma.
der Y's Ministers were thorOughly convincedthat un-
tta,he Present state of Europe, and all the circum-
aaa-ee of the case, their took a part whiCh was
ateed to the real interests of Europe in general,
kerningts Majesty dominions in particular, by ali-
from the renewal of any Treaties of Com-
cire,c,e, hatever.He knew it had been industriously
veall-co that a proposition was made by His Ma-
ess.Go‘ yrnment upon this subject, and that it
ai~hz.e.leaed by France, and, that we submitted our
their determination : the fact was not so,
Part;eit Proposition was brought forward, by either
Right Hon. Friend spoke with peculiar
°II the subjed of the Treaties of 1783 and
Dte„" Without entering into 'a justification, at
‘ay,-,n,t, of the conduet. of Ministers, he could only
itat tuat
he felt a perfed confidence that His Ma.
Ministers had concluded themselves properly
fro, Particular ;he only asked the House to abstain
iforrning a'final opinion upon this subject, that
they emelt would allow themselves a pause before
vile gave their judgment; the season was at hand
and'll, they would have a clear view of this matter,
tio4"e felt a perfed confidence, that the justifica.
fil4i°l Ministers would appear to the entire satis.
1114r-of the House. His Rt. Hon. Friend had said,
certain the Treaty of t 783, die rights of France, in
rho commercial commercial points, were surrendered, and
tied
..of Great Britain established, and this was Car.
Aspu'arther to our. advantage, after 'some ineffedtial
I.,,Qtes on the part of France, by the Convention
Ni, 7- All he should say at present on, that
teat Ns,
.that no -rights whatever,: on the port--Of
thin •-tu'rtratn, were surrendered, or given up by
dither reatY. The question of right, as determined
q h
t,B "Y the Treaty of 1783, or the Convention
Prtsti 7, did not mix itself in the discussion of the
they nt Treaty. The rights, therefore, whatever
The stood untouched in this Treaty.—
tonereatY of 1783, and Convention of 1787, were
tight rcial-arrangements; and as to the question of
tight,
,swltarever. it was, it remained untouched.
ta in had established Rights that were
14 ;nes lous in their nature from those of any other
laced 1:"1 to her India possessions, but 'as far as re.
0 Great Britain and France, he believed it
N'Peat• that • none of these Rights would be
1-s`a hY . .
Ada
y omissions whatever in the present
On the subject of the Bay of Honduras,
exp.t.t !T Hon.h Friend had not been so ample as he
s,.;;•q•lig-Would have been, when he considered
of ye.a(ri7 he had taken. -'We had for a long series
by an established practice, intitled our.
tketc,,er(o, very valuable privileges, which we had
iN44 r t uninterruptedly during War, as well
tediqed during Peace : and this was not dis-
t') triik!)), that Power which was most interested
to
thing a case against us, and would have it, had
Rug
lit Ri, ht the case . against us could be made.
c 4 r Hon. Friend had closed his comments
;I'.'lnt‘t4te,r_ence to an article of great importance, he
liillsrha'tep,c,.'"e of the Prince of Orange he had.
titi_ 'thee was not described in the Treaty by
°f.
?duce of Orange, NOW' , he was not

Ih

to inform his Right Hon. Friend, that Such title had'
never been recognized by any Government of.
France—he was sure this could not be contradided,
and he would repeat it, that such title had never
been recognized by any Government whatever of
France ; he meant, that the head of tharill,ustrious
House had never been recognized by any Govern-
ment of France since the Revolution, by which the
head of that illustrious House had been placed on
the ThrOne of. Great Britain. . His Right Hon.
Friend had said, that no effedual stipulation was
made to that Prince for the loss of his property :
this- was an objedion that might have been made to
the Preliminaries of Peace, and most unquestionably
it was a very important subject. Certainly the
terms were not so favourable for that illustrious Fa-
mily as he could have wished; but certainly the
Treaty contained terms for adequate compensation ;
for it said, that for losses suffered as well in private
property, as by thechange of Constitution adopted
in that Country,' an adequate compensation should
be procured for the House of Nassau,' for losses not
only of a territorial nature, but of private property.
His Right Hon. Friend had said, he did not like
the use that was made of the words " credit" and
" confidence ;" that they were words , too fre-
quently used in that House and elsewhere that, in
a political light, they should not be used, in the
same sense they were taken in upon the Royal Ex-
change, for, that they applied to the charader of
,the-Nation. He should be glad to know to whom
ialiese-words were to be,applied in so large a sense as
'-to this' Country, as to the Country in which we had
the happiness to live ? He was aware of many diffi-
culties which attended the late Negotiation, and he
was-aware also, that they were well 'applied to the
charader of this Country in all its transactions,
and it was a sentiment 'entertained by all those
who had been in alliance 'With us; although even-
wally their interests had nor been so-effeCtually se.
cured as he could wish, or as it had been our con_
stant endeavour to effeEt. The only objection he had
to the Motion of his Right Hon. Friend, applied
merely to the day on which lie proposed to bring it
forward, and when this Treaty was proposed to be
taken into consideration, he was not at all Sur_
prized that his Right Hon. Friend, who disliked
the whole of the Peace, should like to see every
part of it rejected ; but the sense he had Of his duty,
compelled him to do every thing in his power to
prevent an interval taking place between this, and
the period of the discussion of the subjea, and dur-
ing-which the people of this Country would be kept
in suspense, which, of itself, was a consideration
of some importance: he did not know the use of
delay in this case—Did his Right Hon. Friend
mean to prev-ent any of the provisions of the
Treaty being carried into effect ? What then was
the object of his Right Hon. Friend ?—if he had
any specific objet besides that of a general censure
upon the Treaty, let him state it.—Did he mean to
prevent restitution being made according to the pro-
visions of the Treaty ? If lie did—let him state it.
But it was an obje't, in the prosecution of which,
he believed his Right Hon. Friend would not be
countenanced in that House. He wished explana-
tion, he said.: let him ask it, and if it be reasonable
he should obtain it. Ile wished for Papers, let him
state which they were, and, with tha leave of that
House, he should have them, if proper for
His Majesty's Ministers to produce; but lie would
not take it for granted, thinking as he did,
that so long a delay as was now proposed, was
necessary previous to the discussion of the subject;
he could not help feeling thitt delay might be pro-
duaive of very considerable inconvenience ; that of
keeping the minds of the Public in suspense was not
a slight one, and he felt it his duty to, prevent as much
as in his power he could prevent, any inconve-
nience from such delay: He was desirous,of giving as
much time as any Member in the House would really .
think necessary upon such a subject as this, judging
coolly and dispassionately on it ;
_and being con-
vinced the proposed period for discussion was too'
distant, he should not perform
.his.duty. if he did
not oppose it. Wishing, however, that a fUll- dis-
cussion should take place, he should .propose, that,
instead of to-morrow fortnight, Tuesday se'nnight
be inserted ; or, more formally, that instead of the
iSth, the ti th ut May be inserted in the Motion.
Fie concluded by moving this Amendment.
Mr. T. GRENVILLE said, he did not rise for
the purpose of detaining the House with any dis-
t ussion upon the
,topics alluded to by his Right
Hon. Friend, and noticed by the Rt. Hon. Gentleman
opposite to him, as they were all .naturally'enough
adverted to by his Right Hon. Friend; and touch-
ed upon by the Right FlOn. Gentleman, who had
admitted the importance of the'subjed, and the ne-
cessity of its•compleat investigation ; however, he
could-not help obserVing, that in proportion to the
importance of the subject, and variety of topics which
wereinclodedin it, was the necessity of time, for
'the consideration of them : He was of opinion, that
the House could not form a judgment upon that
question, without being much better informed than
it possibly could be at present, as appeared from the
Speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who de-
sired the House to suspend its opinion for the pre-
sent. He was therefore convinced, that fourteen
days was not too lung a period for the House to
collet such information as may be necessary to en-
able it to form its judgment upon this important
question. The House having seen how difficult it
was to enter into a long argument upon all the
topics which had been alluded to, without a great
deal of information, it was impossible for the
different Members of the House, consistently with
the preoccupation of much of their time to the
other business of the House, to quidify them-,
selves to form a coned opinion of this'important
subject in less time-than was proposed by his Right
Hon. Friend. It was highly important to the
commercial and political interests of all,the Niitionsof
the Globe, that -this matter should be subjected to the
deliberate judgment of that House ; it was a Treaty
in many respeds new—new, in as much as that it
did away entirely. the Commercial relations formerly
subsisting between that Country and other Powers ;
none of these Commercial Relations were renewed
in that Treaty ; it was, indeed, taken colleaively,
a Treaty, the like of which, was .never agreed to
before by this Country. He expatiated upon many
of these tOpics,.but he did not profess to answer any
of them.: he was merely stating their importance,

. , .
' and the necessity there was for time to be taken
' - - to prepare Gentlemen for the consideration of theni ;
and he did not think he should be warranted in re-
commending a shorter period, than what was propos_
ed by his Right Hon. Friend.
Lord HAPVICESBURY said, that it was not his,
intention to enter at present into a full reply to the
observations from his Rt. Hon. Ffiend (Mr: Wfsin-
Ft Als),- he rose merely at present to make a few obser-
vationsupon the time at which it was proposed, by
the Motion before the House, to take the Defini-
tive- Treaty into consideration. Upon the face of
the business he should say, that onasubjed which
must necessarily occupy the public' mind so much,
and One that was so interesting and, important in.,
its nature, though it was undoubtedly proper that
full and sufficient titne'should be'given for the con-
sideration of such a subject previous to its . discus-.
sion, yet on the other.hand, he could not but think
the Debate upon such a subjel, ought not to be
- unnecessarily suspended. When that was the im-
pression which the first view of this subjeft made
upon his mind, he. must naturally ask, what reason,
could be given for the delay which Was now pro-
posed ? His Right Hon. Friend had divided the.
Subject into four heads, but in his opinion it might
more properly be divided into two, viz. first
whether the alterations which had taken, place,
whether known or not, since the signing of the
Preliminary Treaty, ought to.have induced His Ma-
jesty's Ministers to have refused to sign the De-
finitive Treaty of 'Peace, on the eeme -term, 213 the
Preliminarieg ? The second Head was, the defects,
whether ofomission- or commission in the Defini-
tive Treaty.. As. to the first of these heads, whether
these events, which were notorious, such as the
First Consul of France having accepted the Presi—
dency of the Italian Republic, the surrender of the
, Isle of Elba to France, and the „cession of Louisiana
by Spain ; whether those circumstances ought or
ought not to have induced His Majesty's Ministers
to conclude 'the Definitive Treaty -with Frances
• was a question for future discussion. .But it should
be recolleled, that they were. not now known to
us for the first time; they had been publicly known
for many months ; and therefore he: Was sure that
there was no person as all interested in 'the welfare
of his Country, who had :notsfuily considered this
question (a, very important eneshe. admitted, and
on which adifference. of opinionmight exist) and I
formed his opinion ' upon it. , Whit regard -to the
second rsint, viz. the . defeds of , the Definitive
Treaty, he begged to observe, that the customs of
.France being different from ours upon these subjeds,
the Definitive Treaty. had been for some time in.
point 'of fad known by the Public, and therefore his
Right Hon. Friend must have made up his niind
with regard to the information which he wanted,
and the Papers which he. should require upon this..
Under these circumstances,, considering that these
objeds most ,range themselves underthe different
heads 'which he had stated, viz, the alteration of.
circumstances since , the Preliminaries which • had
been known for some months, and the stipulation
of the Definitive Treaty which, had been for some
tithe before the Public, he could not conceive any
reason that - could be stated, why the discussion
should be delayed... But he was certain", that if, on
' the one hand no good reason could be assigned for -
the delay, that on the other, great inconvenience
would arise from it. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr:
Wilk/1)14Am) had stated, that the CHAsteirstsoß of
the EXCHEQUER had requested the 'House to sus-
pend their judgment until full information was be-
fore them ; he did not understand him to have said
any such thing; he had merely requested the House
to suspend, their judgment upon the arguments con-
tained. in the Right Hon. Gentleman's Speech, un-'
til the subjed came to be fully discussed. With
regard- to the information which his Right Honour. -
able Friend said would .be necessary previous to the
discussion' of this.sUbjed, it was impossible for His •
Majesty's Ministers to know Whether it would be
consistent with their 'duty to consent to grant it;
until the nature of the information he required was
known. He had heard of notices of, Motions in ,
other places,' abot4 which of Course he* could say
nothing at present. ' Some things it would un-
doubtedly be necessary to grant, but with regard to
the Treaty itself, he wished it to speak for itself,
and to depend upon its own merits. His Right
HMI. Friend (Mr. GitENviLLE) was in the House
when the last Treaty of Peace was under consider-
ation, and had voted for a censure upon Ministers.
-Upon' that occasion there was no great length of
time given when that Vote of Censure was brought
forward. The Party with ' whom his Right Hon.
Friend at that time agreed in opinion, moved that
Vote of Censure without any information at -all,
contending that Ministers were deserving of censure
upon the face of the Treaty itself. The Noble,
Lord who made the' Motion which he alluded to,
did (what he did not mean to ,contend was impro-
per) contend that that Treaty was upon the face of
. it. so had; that it was 'not necessary to call for any
further Documents'. He would not upon the pre,
sent occasion trouble. the House
,any longer, he
would only say, that it was impossible to know
from-what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend,
what the information was that he required. At all
events, he.was sure that no ground had been ad-
vanced why the discussion of this most important
question should be put off so long. The fats upon
which the discussiim must turn, had been for some
time known to every body, and their opinions must
have been formed: Upon 'these grounds he should
Support the Amendment which had. been proposed.

• - -t
Mr. WINDHAM, in' explanation, said, that he
would not employ much of the time of the House.
He had proposed so distant a day for the discussion
of this subjeti, becau.t.e he was convinced .that it
was one that required that some time should be
given to enable Gentlemen to come prepared for the
discussion.—lndependent 'of 'the general points to
which the Noble Lord. had alluded, such as. the
Chief Consul being made President of the Italian-
Ref;ublic, &c.. there were many others of a less im-
portant nature, which appeared to him to require
explanation. Upon the subject: of Tradein pa rtiou-
tar, he thought that much information ..was necei.•
sary, and also with reg4rd to our. Eastern Posses,
sions.

The CHANCELLW) of tbe EXCHEQUER said,
it mizlit relsonably be expected, th it every. groper

, • • • -
Information should be 91ven

gi upon-this subjeFV; but
with regard to the specific papers which his Right
Hon. Friend wanted, he hyped he wuuld state' the
nature .of,theni distinelly.-7He wished to take this'
opportunity of stating„ that his Right Hon.• Friend
had misconceived him; in supposing him to say that.
the House Wbuid their judgment upon the
Definitive _'l reaty. till further inforniation should
be given ; lie only hoped they would suspend their
judgment upon the question until it underwent a
full and complete investigation.
Mr. WINDHAM said, that one piece of infor.:
mation which he should require would be, to know
the effect which :he non-renewal of the 'Treaties of
'Commerce :would have upon our Eastern Trade.
This, was a Pdint Which would certainly .require
some time, in order to get the necessary informa-
tion ; the, same observation applied as to the hu.
• siness of HOnduras. Then with regard to Treaties,
some of -them were certainly beiore the House,
others were before the Public, but not in an authen-
tic way, and there were some, particularly that
• one by which Louisiana was 'ceded to France, which
he had never seen. But he was not then prepared
to state specifically the different papers which might
be necessary to produce previous to the discussion
upon this subjed. •
Mr. PITT said, that if it shonld be the pleasure
of the House to fix the shorter day which had been
proposed for the discussiOn of this question, it
would be necessary to have „much informatiOn,,
and therefore it his Right Hon. Friend was not
now prepared to state" distinetly the Papers which
he: wanted, he hoped he would 'by te-nanrrow .be
enabled to put his Motion in a precise shape, be-
cauSe it could only be a question of fOrrn ; for his
Right. Hon. Friend must certainly be apprized of
the general tendency of the Papers which he want.
ed. He was sure that no person could have ,
heard the speech of his Right Hon. Friend, with.
out being convinced that it was not made with.
. out very ample information upon the subject. His
: Right Hon. Friend, was, he was sure, much too dis-,
erect and well-informed to have said what he had,
Without having previously obtained such informa.
. lion, as satisfied his
_mind- upon , the subjea. The
whole question now being, how.the question shoul
come before the HoUse for diScUssion, the earlier
his Right. Hon. Friend's application for information
came. before the House, the 'sooner that information,
if proper., could_be given, His Right Hon. Friend
had said, that it did not require much time to ask
for papers,, but that much time might elapse before
they could be prepared : upon that ground therefore
the sooner they were moved for, the sooner they
would be laid before the'House. The question was
not .a new-one to. his Right "Hon. Friend, it had
eVidently, engaged much of his attention, and there.-
P; fore he could not be unprepared to state the specific
loformadon which he required. He was'sure, from
the manner in which his Right Hon. Friend had
_taken up the question,. that it was One Which he
thought ought to be brought under discussiory as
soon as possible, after-the House was in possession
of thenecessuy information, because he wished that,
which would best promote the interest and prospe-
' rity of the Country. He was therefore con.
viriced that his Right Honourable Friend would
, not wish, after the doubts he had stated, that an 7
unnecessary interval of suspense should take place
.before the opinion of Parliament. was taken, upon
the. question. It was not his intention at pre.
sent to anticipate the discussion,. by entering into
the subject at preset.z, !.ill there was • onejpoint
to which, he could not avoid alluding for a me.
ment.—He could not but rejoice that upon this
point his Right Hon. Friend had not represented our
rights as doubtful, though he hid spoken of the
claims of those who were lately our Enemies.—He
alluded to what his Right Hon. Friend had- said
about India. one of the great limbs of the power of
this Country, and one of the great'sources of that
wealth and commerce which had raised this Country
to her present exalted state, and bad assisted in car-
rying us through that great and eventful contest
which had just ended. When the question came
under discussion, it would he found that there was
not only no ground for 'solid, but no pretence even
for -contentious argument, or plausible cavil ;• and,
therefore, after whit he had heard stated, he could
not but codnt the moments till the subjea could be
investigated, which he hoped required nothing bit
an impartial discussion, to remove all the uneasiness
from the public mind, because it would prove that
there. existed a determination in Peace to maintain
those rights which we secured and strengthened by
War. . Upon these grounds, he hoped his Right
Hon. Friend would excuse him for requesting him to
state as soon as possible the precise nature of the
inforMation he required. His Right Hon. Friend
!had 'talked .of.-ttte. necessity of producing several
129t0n1q..,0f -them could not in point
Of form be laid upon the Table of the House, and
'with regard toothers, it could not be supposed that
it would be proper to lay before the House the
Treaties of Westphalia, Ryswick, Utrecht, etc. If
Gentlemen had not looked at and considered all those
Treaties 'already, certainly neither a week nor a
fortnight'Would be sufficient to prepare them for
the discusSion of this question. But in order to as.
certain the. skate of Europe immediately previous
to, during,-and since the War, the only information.
that could be given, mtfst be in the discussion of the
question. With regard to the apprehensions which
his Right Hon. Friend had expressed, that in con.
Sequence of the non-renewal of Treaties, parti-
cularly that of 1787, the French would esta-
blish the 'pretensions which they bad, advancid
previous . 1787; it would be necessary, in
the • first place, to ascertain, what .these preten-
sions were, ;and upon what ground they 'rested.—
If it should turn out-that those pretensions, be they
what they Might, had no foundation whatsoever,
then, undoubtedly, any inquiry into the subject
would be useless. The first question was, Whether.
we were of opinion, that in point of faa, our lateene... •
mies had no such pretensions; and-Whether we knew
enough of. our own rights to say,that those which *,
we had maintained_in War should not be 'conceded
in Peace? He knew enough, of those pretensions,
to state that they arose out of two foundationi,
but principally, out of the Treaty of 1783, which
was now done away. far as they arose out
of Grants from the Gteat. Mogul, Hof. whom we
were in faa the substitutes) these grants must be

-h;