The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-27 00:00:00

POST OFFICE.

Mr. WALL AC E rose, pursuant to notice, to bring
the department of the Post Office under the attention
of the house. He was aware that he had undertaken
A. task of great magnitude, and wished it had
fallen into abler hands. The truth was, that the
department of the Post-office required immediate
revision, and it would be for the advantage of
the country to put it entirely on a different foot-
ing. On a former night he had expressed his en-
tire satisfaction at the conduct of the Postmaster-
General, in relation to transactions with France. Ile
was at a loss to understand upon what authority a
volume of documents, entitled " Papers on the Post-
office," had been printed and placed in the hands of
members, since they had not the sanction of the
Speaker, and had never been ordered by the house.
The Postmaster-General there took no little credit to
himself, but it would be found that every beneficial
change he had adopted had been previously recom-
mended in one of the reports of the commissioners.
He would take leave in the outset to lay down cer-
tain great principles :-1. That the head of no de-
partment ought to be allowed to delegate his duties to
another. 2. That no monopoly ought to be permitted
to exist. 3. That the public money ought not to he
applied to the purpose of speculation. 4. That it is
contrary to all sound principle that any department in
the receipt of revenue should also have the right to
disburse that revenue.- The. -money received in each
department ought to be paid into the general deposi-
tory of the treasury, mid from thence paid out when
sufficient grounds could be established.. An immense
sum of money was at this time emphsyed in specu-
lations, and a system of favouritism and jobbing of
a most unwarrantable kind Mil kept up. Nothing
could be more unconstitutional than the office of
Postmaster-General, and the patent involved even the
privileges of the two houses of Parliament.. He de-
nied
the assertion of the member for Northampton, on,
a former night, that he had endeavoin# to procure an
advantage for the town of Greenock 44.iich he repre-
sented, and be read a letter he had written to the'
Postmaster-General, asking if (as its representative)
he had a right to recommend a new postmaster for
Greenock, the*Trmer officer having died. fie did
not claim the-r*ht, he only asked if he had it, mean-',
ing to place the matter in the hands of the Treasury,
without exercising his right. The hon. member then
complained of the system on which the intercourse by
letters was carried on between England and France,
asserting that .the expense was too great, and the
French post-office had offered the most liberal terms
to this country, which had not beetw accepted. He
objected also to the detention of the mails in London
on Sunday, by which the intercourse with the whole
civilized world was suspended for the want of a few
servants who could attend to the duties of the Post-
office on the Sabbath. After discussing this point,
the hon. member adverted to the department of the Se-
cretary to the Post-office, and explained the nature of
his duties from the documents upon the table. The
next department to which he 'would direct the atten-
tion of the house, was the mail-coach-office depart-
ment. The great argument always held out in favour
of our mail-coach system was its great regularity and
despatch, but he was ready to prove that there were
many lines of road in England on which the heavy
coaches went with more regularity and equal expedi-
tion with the mail. He contended that the mails
ought to be made of a larger size, so as to carry,
not only letters and newspapers, but pamphlets of
all des .riptions ; and this he was sure could be done
without impeding them, or diminishing their expedi-

tion. He knew that there were many heavy coaches
leaving London daily, which carried double the weight
which the mails did, yet they went with equal speed
and regularity. There was another subject con-
' nected with the management of the Post,office which he
could not refrain froth alluding to, as he considered it
a great hardship. He meant that system by which no
place Was left open in the metropolis for the reception
or letters between seven o'clock on Saturday evening
and Monday morning. ( Hear, hear.) He could see
nu just reason for this regulation, and he knew that it
i was attended with 'great hardship in many instances.
He considered it also a hardship on London that there
was only one departure of the mails in the course of the
day. In the compdratively small town which lie had
the honour of representing there were four departures,
and in Liverpool there were no less than six. Why,
then, should there be but one from the capital of the
country ? It was, he believed, given as a reason that
the Post-office had too much business. That lie con-
sidered as no reason. The Post-office was a mere
trading company, and it Might to be managed on
the principles which regulated the transactions of
all other trading companies ; and he never had
heard of any trading company, excepting the Post-
office itself, which complained of having too much bu-
siness. He contended that there ought to be at least
two departures from London. ( Hear.) The Post-
office ought to be not a mere engine for the gathering
of revenue, as it was at present ; its primary object
ought to be the benefit and accommodation of the
public, and the revenue to be derived from it should
be only a secondary consideration. In his opinion, it
ought to be put on such a footing that two mails
should leave London daily--one at twelve o'clock at
noon, and the other at the hour at which the mail at
present leaves, or any other hour which might be more
advantageous, according to arrangement. This ar-
rangement would be of particular advantage, especially
on the north road, and he considered that it should be
dote on the same principle that three mail packets
were despatched daily for Ireland from Holyhead.
He was not illiberal, he did not wish that the-
number of packets sent to Ireland should be di-
minished, for he did not begrudge to that-coun-
try any advantages it .I enjoyed, but he thought
that England and Scotland were entitled to similar
advantages, and he therefore contended that they
should be extended to them. The next department
to which he would allude, was that of solicitor of the
Post-office, and he was sure that many things were
done within the office of that functionary of which the
Postmaster-General knew nothing. In Scotland the
solicitor demanded that letters should be sent to him
in order that he might prosecute the leiges. This, he
contended, was illegal, and such was the opinion in
other quarters, for in England the Postmaster-General
had put a stop to the practice of his own accord. He
contended that those who were fined by sentences
under such prosecutions ought to have their money re-
turned, because the prosecution was illegal, and they
ought not to have been fined' at all. A case had oc-
curred in Glasgow in which a person had incurred
penalties to the amount of 570/. It was stated that
the prosecution had proceeded on information, but
that was not the fact ; for it turned out that the war-
rant
and informations were dated before the offence had
been committed. Now, in that case, the post-office must
have opened the letters without any information, and he
contended that in doing_- so the authorities were guilty of
felony. The hon. member then proceeded to contend
that the system followed by the Post-office in Scot-
land, in regard to prosecutions, was much more harsh
and severe than in England or Ireland. By the return
laid upon the table, he found that in England the
number of prosecutions, at the instance of the Post-
office, was 200, and in Scotland 524 ; while in Ireland
it was only 18. The system was to send a person to •
the coach offices to open parcels suspected of contain-
ing letters, and in cases of their containing none, the
parcels were closed again and forwarded. In the case
to which he had alluded, two parcels were seized ; the
one contained no letters, the other contained valuable
property, and letters which had reference to the pro-
perty contained in the parcel. The one parcel *as
sent forward, but the other was detained, and the
parties were fined and imprisoned. Now, if it was
felony to open letters, what was it to open parcels ?
( Hear, hear.) He knew• that the system of opening
parcels was felt as highly inconvenient. An attorney at
Gloucester haa told him that so severely was it felt, that
a number of gentlemen in that town had determined
to employ a person to go occasionally to London by
the mail to defend their parcels. The hon. member
then contended that the return made in consequence
of a motion of his was deficient, in so far as it did not
give the'places where the informations were laid ; but
the reason of the omission lie could understand, as no
such informations had been lodged, and it would be
inconvenient, therefore, to state the places. (Hear,
hear.) He condemned this system of proceeding as
an encouragement to the solicitor to institute them,
for every fine that put 21. 10s. into the Exchequer,
Put 151. into the pocket of the solicitor; so that the
solicitor was anxious to institute prosecutions. He
• admitted that it was difficult to bring home charges
against the Post-office, because it was conducted in
such a cunning manner that there was no discovering
particulars. ( Hear.) He condemned also the system
of favouritism, by which some persons had an earlier
delivery of their letters than others. The hon. member
then complained of a case which happened to himself
lately in having two letters detained, the one for three
days, and the other for one day. He had made inquiry of
the secretary of the Post-office, but the answer was, that
after a most minute inquiry, no account could be
given of where the letters had been detained. He
left it to the house then to say whether the Post-office
was conducted with that absolute security to the public
which was claimed for it. He condemned the system
of having two post-offices, a general and a two-penny
post-office. There could be no reason for separate
establishments ; but the two-penny post-office obliged
the people to pay a penny or two-pence more for their
letters, and this was made a source of revenue ; and
this, he contended, was not a time when they ought to
derive a revenue from the poor man for the delivery of
his letter or newspaper. He admitted that there were
many excellencies in the system under which the Post-
office department was conducted, but there were also
many blots, and it was in order to have them rubbed
out that he wished for an inquiry. Why should not
every country town have the same advantages in
regard to the two-penny post as the metropolis ?
He contended that if the limits of the two-penny
post extended to twelve miles round London, they
should be to the same extent in every town in
the kingdom. He had before him a paper which
showed the French system of charging postage.
It was such that no man could be cheated, for
every post-master was obliged to have a copy of
the laws, and to show them when demanded ; so that
every man could see the exact amount he ought to
pay. He deprecated the system of the Sunday post.
Letters did not come to the metropolis on Sunday,
and what was the consequence ? The consequence
was, that they remained in the country post-offices
during that day, and then
_was the time when oppor-
tunities were given of opening them and extracting
money from them. ( Hear, Near.) He ( Mr. Wallace)
had moved for a return of 'those who were informed
against, but that was refused, and only the names of
those who were prosecuted given. The reason was
obvious. The heads of the Post-office department
took upon themselves the prhilege of prosecuting or
not, just as they pleased, and they did not wish to
show for' what reasons they forbore to prosecute. He
did not believe it was in the King's prerogative to
grant such a power, or even to grant the powers given
by the Postmaster-General's patent ; for he did not
believe them to be constitutional. ( Hear, hear.) In
consequence of the mails not starting on Sundays, a
letter could not be sent from London under any emer-
gency.
An Hos. MEMBER—The mails go.

Mr. WA LLAC E—The mail-coaches go, but not
the mails. Ab ( Hear.) The coaches go, because it is
the interest of the proprietors that they should carry
passengers. ( Heir.) As an instance of the hard-
ship to which the system led, he would mention a case
which fell within his own knowledge. He happened
to beat Charing Cross post-office on a Saturday
evening, when the mail was about to start, and a man,
who stated himself to be a servant of Lord Frederick
Fitzclarence, came up and begged to have a letter sent
to a brother of his at Birmingham, who was dying,
and to whom he wished to send money. The thing
could not be done without subjecting the poor man to
a heavy penalty, and consequently his letter could not
leave town till the following Monday evening. This
was enough to show the hardship to which this system
led. The hon. member then alluded to the steam-
packet department, which was undertaken by the
Post-office as a speculation, and in the face of the
advice which could be given by those who best under-
stood the subject. Had the motion which he (Mr.
Wallace) made at the commencement of the
session been agreed to, all this would have been
avoided. With regard to the manner in which the
Post-office had gone about building their steam-boats,
he must say that it was different from that which

I was followed in all other cases. In other casetregard
was invariably had to the expense as well as to qua-
lity of the workmanship. It was far differei; here. i
The orders were given to, have the boats buil, with-
out any stipulations as to the expense. Thiconse--
quence was, that the work was done in the thst ex-
travagant manner. The Post-office ought to ave no
beats of their own, but shduld hire them from )ersons
who had. This would effect a very great tying ;
and, indeed, the committee appointed some tint since
to inquire into matters connected with the trans-
mission of the mails to Ireland, recommendd that
boats be hired by contract for the purpose. lie in-
terests of his constituents were so seriously Acted
by the competition occasioned by the Poe-office
steam-boats, that they had offered to Government
to carry the mails for nothing, rather that their
trade should be altogether destroyed, on the cdidition
that they would withdraw their vessels. Lverpool
had made the same offer, but in both cases it Isd been
refused. At Holyhead there is an immense number
of steam-packets—far more, indeed, than it neces-
sary; and this immense establishment of paclets was
kept in the most extravagant manner. The) carried
so many passengers, as seriously to injure the trade of
the Liverpool Company. That Company, as he only
expedient they could have recourse to in theeircum-
stances of the case, came to a resolution to redtce their
fares ; but in order still to carry on the correetition
with the Liverpool traders, and do them every possi-
ble injury, the Post-office packets actually cane to the
determination of carrying passengers for nothing ; and
in the short space of a few weeks, did care about
6,000 persons across the channel, without maling any
charge. The consequence of the system on wiich the
Post-office establishment was carried on, is, thit it has
entailed on the. country a very large unnecesswy ex-
pense. That expense, since 1821, including theinterest
of the money, had been estimated at 1,200,00. A.
deal of indignation bud been expressed, it refer-
ence to the way in which the Post-office had been con-
ducted in Ireland ; but none as to the way in which
the Post-office was conducted in Scotland, notwith-
standing the notorious fact that there had been so much
mismanagement there. The house must be aware
that a system of fraud had been acted on in the Post-
office in Edinburgh, some years since, to a very' great
extent, and that a great many individuals connected
with that establishment had been implicated in it. He
wished the house to recollect, that the same parties as
had the direction of matters connected with the Post-
office then, held the same situations now. Sir Fran-
cis Freeling was Secretary then as he is now. With
regard to the transmission of the mails to Ireland,
he was certain that if Scotland were allowed
to enter into competition with Holyhead, they would
soon show Government what could be done in tl:e
way of reducing the enormous expense at present at-
tending their conveyance thither. Why should the
mails not be allowed to start from Glasgow ? It
was quite monstrous that the existing system
should be continued. A board of commissioners was
necessary for the conduct of the Post-office business,
because it was impossible that any one individual could
give it the requisite attention. There was another griev-
ance connected' with the administration of Post-office
affairs, to which he had not yet alluded. That was
the inconvenience to which certain towns and districts
were put from the arrangements at present existing as
regarded the receipt of their letters. The Kelso mail
to 13erwick, distance 23 miles, goes to Edinburgh,
being 40 miles, thence to Berwick by the London mail
from Edinburgh, being a distance of 96 miles ; the
consequence is, a letter going 23 miles, which, mea-
sured by time, is two hours and a half ; four days is oc-
cupied in receiving an answer in place of six hours.
The Edinburgh Post-office arrangements, specially or-
dered by the Postmaster-General were, that letters for
Kelso leave Edinburgh by the Carlisle mail at 7 in
the morning, proceed to Selkirk, turn back at Ha-
wick, thence to Melrose, thence to Kelso—distance
75 miles, direct road 40. The direct mail ; the cur-
ride one passes within 6 miles of Kelso. The Post-
master-General refused to fill up the communication of
this short space,which would accommodate a wealthy and
interesting district. One consequence of the present
absurd and inconvenient arrangements as to the deli-j
very of letters and newspapers was, that instead of
being put into the Post-office they were often given to
the coachmen, who scattered them in every direction
through which they passed. He was sorry to hear it
objected to an alteration of the existing system with
respect to a more speedy and efficient delivery of
letters and newspapers, that it would be attended with
additional expense. The additional expense would
only be trifling, and what would that be to an esta-
blishment which cost the country from 000,000/. to
70G,0001. a year. He would now call the attention
of She house to the evidence of the late Postmaster-
General, when examined by a committee of that house
on the subject of the most efficient way of transacting
the business of the Polt.:office. That evidence speaks
volumes, and in favour of the appointment of a board.
He (Mr. Wallace) denied, however, that the head of
the department had any real duties to perform. The
whole of the business was done, in point of fact, by
the Secretary, and that too in a way that was open
to very great objection. All communications ad-
dressed to the Postmaster-General were dealt with
by the Secretary. .He made a minute of his opinion
on the outside of them, and in this state they were
laid before the chief of the office, who seldom, if
ever, took the trouble to • consult more than the out-
side ; but he denied that this was the proper mode of
doing the public business. ( A laugh.) The hon.
gentleman complained that the Secretary of th.eLlereissh,
Post-office, which was on all hands allowed to have
been improperly conducted, should have been sent to
Scotland at a reduced salary. He did not mean to
convey any reflection on the character of Sir E
who was, he believed, a highly efficient and honourable j
man, but he certainly must condemn the system as bad in
every point of view in which it could be regarded. Sir
Edward Lees got no compensation. He (Mr. WO
did not complain of this, but the late Secretary of the
Irish Post-office enjoyed an official income of 1,450 L,
and a comfortable house and furniture in Dublin, but
was removed to Scotland at a salary of 6001., with a
house but no furniture. Surely if compensation was
extended to any one, Sir Edward Lees should not
have been excluded. With regard to the office
of Postmaster- General, he (Mr. W.) thought that he,
as a mere political officer, must always be at the mercy
of the secretary. When appointed to the office he
could have little or no knowledge of the details of the
department over which he was to preside; and that
hem.. the case, the secretary had the power, if he
wished to exercise it, of keeping him completely in
the dark. The late Secretary for the Colonies on a
motion respecting the state of Canada called for a
committee of inquiry, because he said the government
were put upon their trial ; and, haVing now put the
Post-office on its trial, he ( Mr. Wallace) hoped the
course which was taken with respect to Canada would
be followed in the present instance, if it were, only to
disabuse his mind of the impressions which he enter-
tained. If those impressions were erroneous they
ought to be removed;. but if, on the contrary, they
were well founded, 'surely it was the bounden duty,
of the government tit take some step in order to
correct the abuses which he had pointed out. In
a speech which the noble lord (Lord Althorp)
delivered on the 14th Of December, 1830, he said,
" I thank God the time has arrived when the system
of governing the country by means of patronage has
passed away for ever." And now, when there was an
end of the influence of the noble duke, he hoped the
noble lord would bear in mind this sentiment, which
was well worthy not only of his own consideration but
of that of the Government of which he was a leading
member. ( Hear.) He was willing to admit that the
noble duke's administration of the affairs of the Post-
office had given the utmost satisfaction ; that it was
alike advantageous to the public and creditable to him-
self. ( Hear, hear.) But, notwithstanding he was
bound to speak well of the conduct of the noble duke,
he was at the same time ready to assert that he had
made out a case that called for inquiry. The hon.
gentleman concluded by moving----" That an humble
address be presented to his- Majesty, praying that he
will be graciously pleased to appoint a commission to
inquire into the management of the Post-office and
packet service."
Mr. B LIL WE R thought there were many matters
connected with this subject which rendered inquiry
desirable ; amongst others of considerable importance,
was the deficiency in the payments to the revenue,
amounting on the average to 517/. 14s. 3d. weekly.
His hon. friend had alluded to the situation of solicitor
to the Post-office. The salary of the individual who
-held this appointment was 3001. a year ; and it was
generally thought that this sum was all that the gen-
tleman received from the public on account of his pro-
fessional assistance. The fact was, however, that this
300/. was paid only as a kind of retaining fee,
and that the annual emoluments of the office were not
less than 2,500/. Hon. gentlemen opposite might
doubt his statement, but he gave it on the authority of
the report of the committee of 1829. Now it was an
admitted principle that a solicitor ought not to have an
interest in creating legal difficulties, and in increasing

the correspondence, for his share of which he charged
at the rate of 6s. Bd. per letter. The Solicitor to the
Post-office, like other solicitors to public bodies, ought
to derive his whole emolument from a fixed salary.
He would next speak of the Two-penny Post depart-
ment. The average mileage of the general post was
71. per mile for the year ; but throughout the two-
penny post offices it amounted to 11/. for the year.
Struck with the disparity, the commissioners who
were formerly appointed, after investigating the mat-
ter, suggested an expedient by which they might get
rid of the whole of the expense of the mileage. The
proposal was that a contract should be entered into
with the proprietors of the regular coaches on
the roads, who should be made to give security
1 for the proper discharge of the duty entrusted
to them ; it was at the same time suggested that
their remuneration should consist in their being ex-
empted from the payment of the turnpike tolls. This
it was thought would pay the short stages amply for
carrying•the bags, and while the public would get all
the advantage of the business being performed, there
would be saved the whole of the extravagant charge
for mileage. He must say that he did not, as a ge-
neral principle, approve of the appointment of boards
for the despatch of business ; responsibility was unne-
cessarily weakened by so trusting to five persons a
duty that might be discharged by one. But in the
case of the Postmaster-General, the individual ought
to be one who was accustomed to the routine of busi-
ness, and who was completely master of all the details
connected with his particular office. (Hear, hear.)
The principle that ought to be kept in view by him
who was at the head of the Post-office, was the great
medium of communication of all private and public
interests, and how far he could extend the advantages
of that communication. Was that principle likely to
be acted on under the present system ? Now, if a
duke resigned, they must look out for an earl or a
marquis to fill his place. ( Hear.) He did not wish to
discourage noblemen from taking office, but regard
ought to be had to their being in every respect fully
qualified. - They at least ought not to be invariably
selected to the exclusion of other persons, who, if per-
manently appointed, would gain greater experience,•
and discharge their duties,. more efficiently. During
the last ten years education had increased, commerce
had increased, and there had been more political'
excitement than usual, which always occasioned an
additional amount of correspondence. Notwithstand-
ing this, the revenues of the Post-office during the
last ten years had been stationary. (Hear, hear.) - It
was calculated that the relief afforded to the public
for the last ten years in the reduction of charges,
amounted to 25,000/. ; but the postages of letters had
increased to the amount of 15,000 letters a day. In
1829 the average number of letters was 15,000 a day
less than at present. If, then, they took that calcula-
tion as their basis, it would be found that the revenue
had increased more than five times the amount of the
25,0001. from which the public was relieved. Dur-
ing the last ten years, in which period the revenue of
the English Post-office was stationary, that of the
post-office of France had doubled. (Hear, hear.) It
appeared to him that on these facts they must arrive
to one of three conclusions. Either our scale of
charges for the transmission of letters was too high ;
or the revenue of the Post-office was not well ma-
naged ; or the expenses of the establishment were not
in a fair proportion; to the profits. ( Hear, hear.)
Whatever the cause of the deficiency, he thought that
a sufficient case was made out for an inquiry. In the
hope; then, that the noble lord opposite would not re-
fuse his consent to the proposed investigation, he
would conclude with seconding the motion of his hon.
friend.

The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. VERNON SMITH said he had undertaken to
offer a few observations to the house on this question,
having been personally solicited to do so by the noble
duke who had lately presided over the Post-office de-
partment. He trusted, however, that the house would
do him the justice to believe that he would not appear
there merely as an advocate ; he assured them that
his views entirely coincided with the statements that
he was authorised to make. He begged further to
assure therh that in all the intercourse that he had
ever had with the noble duke, he had found in
him the greatest candour, combined with the most
perfect willingness to entertain such objections as
might be made to any of the proceedings of the Post-
office, and if he thought the suggestions worthy of
consideration, and subsequently of adoption, he invari-
ably carried them into execution with that integrity of
purpose which distinguished his manly character, and
which made his secession from office, if he ( Mr. Smith)
might here allude to such a subject—a severe depriva-
tion, (Hear, hear.) He would now address himself
to a few of the facts of the hon. gentleman opposite,
if such his statements could be called, after he himself
had told the house that he gave them without being
able to vouch for their accuracy. One of the charges
made against the Postmaster-General was, that he had
produced certain information to the house ; and it was
asked, was it ever heard of before that a Postmaster-
General volunteered information ? It was rather ex-
traordinary that at the very moment when this objec-
tion was stated, the hon. gentleman submitted a mo-
tion to the house, the object of which was, to obtain
information. As regarded the information being vo-
lunteered, however, it would have been well if the
hon. gentleman had searched the journals of the house
before he made the charge ; because; if he had so
done, he would have found that, on the 4th or sth of
March last, the paper in question was ordered by the
house, a motion to that effect being made and agreed
to. Before the hon. gentleman recommended the re-
newal of the old commission which had been appointed,
he ought to consider to what extent the arrangements
he had in view were already in existence. The hon. gen-
tleman suggested that the revenue of the Post-office
ought to be kept completely under the control of a reve-
nue board ; to this it might be replied, that it was so at
present ; for no money derived from the establishment
could he expended without the sanction of the Lords
of the Treasury. The hon. member for Middlesex
might think this an incompetent board, but he must at
all events admit it was not correct to affirm that the
Post-office revenue was not under any control. The
hon. gentleman had recommended that Sunday mails
should be established. He ( Mr. Smith) bad per-
sonally no objection to them ; but he believed that the
hon. gentleman would find considerable difficulty in
obtaining the sanction of the house to his proposition.
( Hear, hear:) He would remind the hon. gentleman
that Sabbath Bill number one and Sabbath Bill num-
ber two were not yet disposed of ( Hear, hear) ; and
he would submit that it might be considered a strange
affront to the hon: member who had brought in those
bills, to propose, in direct opposition to them, the tra-
velling of mails On the Sunday. ( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME (we believe) said the mails go now. .
Mr. V. SMITH continued. He knew they did so,;
but theY were not publicly sanctioned, as they would be
by the conveyance of the mails. He, however, would
leave the hen. gentleman to settle this, matter in his
own Way with the house: The hon. gentleman, in
referring to this point, had brought some severe
charges against Sir Francis Freeling. He said that
Sir Freeling wished to enjoy his Sundays. Notv
he (:Mr. Smith) did not think it very unnatural that
such a wish should be entertained ( Hear) ; but it
could hardly be'supposed that that consideration alone
would be sufficient to prevent the institution of Sunday
mails. ( Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman had other
grounds or complaint against the Post-office Secretary.
He admitted him to be the civilest of all public officers,
but he at the same time quarrelled with him for taking
on himself authority-. The hon. gentleman's recom-
inendation was a board with a secretary ; but what
board could be mentioned, the secretary or chairman
of which had not -the principal authority? (Hear,
hear.). The Secretaries of the Admiralty and 'Tree
sury Boards were in constant comniumcatiori
with
other public bodies. There must be one person who
was in fact the executive authority, to whom matters
"of detail were delegated. As regarded thecrn
o-
pensation the Secretary to the Post-office t
to /ce-
ceive, that was not properly a subject of Post-
-0 e
inquiry. If the hon. gentleman thought the present
salary too much, let him bring the matter as a distinct
motion before the house, when no doubt it would be
dealt with as the house dealt with every other claim of
justice; and he would remark, that he believed the
present claim to be as strictly- founded in justice as a
claim could be. (Hear.) But if it was not, it was a
financial matter for the house, and it was unfair to
bring it now forward in aggravation of the charges
made against the Post-office. The hon. gentleman
recommended that the contracts for the lines of road
shoUld be open to competition, and they were.so; but
it was not thought discreet to trust in every case to
the highest bidder so important a contract as that of
the conveyance of mails. The office was limited,
therefore, to a certain number of persons, who were
known to be responsible, and to be the most likely to
undertake the business with all the responsibility • the
practice was to take the highest offer made by those
individuals. The hon. gentleman had talked of a new
scheme, but he was at a loss to discover in what it
consisted. It appeared to him that tho lion. gentleman

laid down no broad principle, but confined himself to I
little matters of detail. If it were proposed to abandon !
the revenue derived from the Post-office, and to make I
the establishment a means of communication only, that
ould be a tangible question, and would be a fair
matter for the consideration of the house • but the
hon. member for Greenock had not gone that length,
and he was not aware that the hon. member for Mid-
dlesex had ( Hear) ; at all events it did not appear to
him that such a reduction would be much in accord-
ance with the present state of the revenue. The hon.
member for Greenock asserted that the Post-office
was unpopular : he would ask the hon. member how
he made out his case ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Smith) heard nothing in the country of the unpopula-
rity of the Post-office. During the present session
there had been very few attacks made on it, and what
there were had proceeded from the hon. member
for Greenock. ( Hear, hear, hear.) There had
been, he believed, two petitions from Cheltenham,
in which the honourable member for Greenock had
taken. great interest, but it so happened that they
were laughed to scorn, and turned out of the house.
What could make the hon. gentleman so anxious for
the appointment of this commission he could not con-
, ceive, unless, as he bore the name of him who was at
the head of the old commission, he wished himself to
be put at the head of the new one. 'But the hon.
gentleman took such a continued interest in the ques-
tion, that he might be considered a sort of standing
commissioner in his own person. Could the hon.
gentleman seriously wish to renew the old commission
which had sat for eleven years, and cost the country
90,0001. ( Hear, hear)—and merely to conduct our pro-
posed petty investigations, there having been as yet no
great principle laid down ? Allusion had been made
to the opening of parcels by the Post-office. The
fact was, that parcels were never opened except on
positive information that letters were in those parcels.
If the Post-office was to protect itself, it was necessary
for it to have this power. But it was said the prin-
ciple of competition ought to be acted on, and that
the public ought to be allowed to avail itself of that
I conveyance which was cheapest. This, however,
brought them back to the question of revenue, which
was one the hon. gentleman' must settle with the
Chancellor of the Exchequer and., the house. The
hon. gentleman had also availed himself of the aris-
tocratic ground of objection ; he had asserted that the
two-penny post was principally_ collected from the
poor ; but could it be said that the inhabitants of
Hammersmith were poorer than those of Grosvenor-
place ? It was proposed by the hon. gentleman to
extend the principle of distance at present confined to
a circuit of twelve miles round London, to every
capital town. The effect of such a change as this
would be a material increase of the postage in country
towns. The charge for delivering letters in them was
at present only Id. Then the hon. gentleman com-
plained of the difficulty of making complaints to a
duke, but if there was ground of complaint, why could
it not be as easily stated to a duke as to a board? The
fact was, that the hon. gentleman had not been sparing
of his complaints : he had railed against the late
noble Postmaster-General almost the whole of the time
that he was in office. ( Hear, and a laugh.) The
hon. gentleman had complained that some returns
moved for had not been produced • but it was difficult
to comply fully with the wishes of hon. gentleman
in this respect, he having moved for a return of all the
letters " gone or missing." ( A laugh.) Certainly
a preference had been given to government packets
rather than bye contracts ; and it was difficult, per-
haps, to say which was most advantageous ; but it
would not be considered that the country had not
derived very great benefit from the principle which
had been acted on, when it was considered that the
government, by the employ of steam-boats, might be
said to have brought them to their present state of
perfection. ( Hear ) With respect to the letter-carriers,
who had been described as walking paupers collecting
pennies, he begged to inform the house, that these in-
dividuals were allowed to receive the pennies for work-
ing the extra hour, in order that it might act as a
greater inducement to them to call at houses for let-
ters than they would have if they received a fixed sum.
It was an accommodation to the public for these per-
sons to be allowed to receive letters after the offices
were closed ; and making their remuneration depen-
dent on the number of letters they obtained was a se-
curity against the public convenience being neglected.
( Hear, hear.) The hon. member who last addressed
the house had alluded to a weekly deficiency amounting
to 5 1 7/. ; but there was an error in this statement, the
calculations being made without reference to the in-
completeness of the return. Reverting to the proposal
to establish a board, he must say that he preferred in-
dividttal to divided responsibility. But the hon. mem-
ber for Greenock inquired why not apply-the principle
of individual responsibility in other cases: for instance,
why not, in place of the Treasury and other boards,
make the Chancellor of the Exchequer responsible ?
He (Mr. Smith) might not object to this if the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer could get through the mass of
business that would devolve on him under such an ar-
rangement. But there was this difference ; the Trea-
sury Board, besides being a board of control, was a
board of appeal ; and this power of appeal was princi-
pally available when property was concerned. As a
challenge had been given to point out the improvements
which had taken place in the Post-office department,
and the . advantages possessed by Individual control
over that vested in a board, he would point out the
consolidation which had taken place between the
English, Irish, and Scotch Post-offices, and
the good results which had ensued. The ad-
vantages derived from this measure could not
be denied; and he would not hesitate to call
upon the Irish representatives then in the house to
bear testimony to their extent. The proposed ar-
rangement with regard to newspapers was another
measure of improvement, which, when carried into
effect, would be found greatly beneficial. He would
not now enter into details, but he would assert, that
there was nothing proposed to be effected by the com-
mission moved for the hon. member for Greenock,
which the house itself was not competent to effect.
Already some progress had been made in improving
this department, and still more important measures
were in contemplation, some of which had been sug-
gested by the commissioners of revenue inquiry.
Amongst these was one of particular importance,
namely the free transmission of newspapers to foreign
parts, and the receipt at home of foreign newspapers
free of duty. ( Hear.) Improvements in the two-
penny-post transmission were also in contemplation.
In addition to these alterations, perquisites would also
be abolished.

To a question from some hon. member, as to
whether Ireland was also to be included ?

Mr. V. SMITH replied he belieied it was. The
attendance of the noble duke who had been at the
head of the Post-office department had been observed
upon, but he (Mr. Smith) challenged proof of any
person who had filled the office having been more at-
tentive to its duties. He would put it to the house
whether the hon. member for Greenock had made out
in so tedious and expensive an inquiry as his t
proposi-
tion involved. What, he would take leave
.o
and expensive in-
quiry? Why, its only
The calling of officers to give
already in progress.
evidence would not only prevent
the
development of
ecroiomdmailslsuidoendhatoddbideennopt put meats but also delay the daily busi-
nessthe proposed improve
oppose the improvemenetsfiewe'htiewho he had shownp were
of the departments in which they were engaged.
With respect to the papers of which the ,hon. mem-
ber had spoken, they could not byany possibility have
were made .out. The reason of this, perhaps, was,
nor were they so efficient as
end to by a Treasury minute before those papers
commissionsgthiveesna m becausee
t quickness,t the the
p
been
t ilviiatht
those of later appointment. A better plan than the
commission now sought for would be to propose a
committee on the Postage Acts. It had been con-
tended that the proposition for reciprocal freedom of
foreign and English newspapers had originated with
France. Surely this was a paltry object of contention;
but if it were to be considered a matter of importance,
he was prepared to show that it originated with tiv,s.
noble duke (Richmond), or at least that it was he
who brought the plan into execution. They were now
about to enter into such reciprocity with France, and
it was to be hoped that two great countries, separated
only by a narrow neck of sea, and which had hitherto
been looked upon as natural enemies, would hence-
forward have no rivalry injurious to either, but rather
enter into an emulation beneficial to both, tending to
develope their resources, and enable them freely, and
with equal advantage, to interchange the surplus pro-
ductions of their labour. Nor,was it only with-France
that interchange was to take place. It should also
extend to our colonial territories, for it would be hard
to grant to France that which we denied to our owl.
colonies. The duties should be taken off' from all
newspapers passing to or from the colonies and the
mother-country. The advantages arising from this
arrangement would be of great benefit to the former,
as instead of their own narrow journals, whose matter

was in a great degree restricted to local scandal, they
would have the advantage of more enlarged and able
prints. He hoped the horse would agree with him in
the view he•had taken, and he would therefore move
that they should proceed with the order of the day
for going into committee on the. Postage Acts.
The SPEAKER here suggested, that as this was
a notice night, the motions should have precedence.
If the order of the day were entered upon, any other
motion which may be brought forward should be
moved as an amendment.

Mr. HUME supported the motion of the hon. mem-
ber for Greenock, and was of opinion that a commis-
sion of inquiry would be of great service. In the
days in which the former commission was granted, it
certainly was difficult enough to procure inquiry, and
yet, notwithstanding the difficulty and the delay with
which in those days such inquiries were burdened,
the committee then appointed produced evidence
enough to show that the department which they were
appointed to investigate was in a most miserable cons
dition. Were the few improvements which had been
so ostentatiously pointed out sufficient to satisfy the
house? The honourable gentleman had sneered at
commissions. Was not this rather odd in a member
of a government which abounded in commissions ? If
the Ministry would grant a committee in the next
session on this question, he would advise his honour-
able fri4nd who had brought forward the motion not to '
press it • but otherwise he would advise him to pro-
ceed with it. Much stress had been laid on the reci-
procal freedom of newspapers, and it was argued as a
greati
Still
h ben would; but
n deny looking at eit
very as P
pence matter, it was not of such very great importance.
sot und shilling
considerable advan-
tages v and
a n-
tages which, in another point of view, were likely to
accrue from it ' • and he must admit that it was a mea-
sure calculated to put an end to the hostilities which
had so frequently existed between this country and
France. But he would show, from the handwritingof
the noble duke to whom this measure had been attri-
buted, that he himself did not set a-higher value on it
as regarded revenue than 3,5001., and that so far from
viewing it as an object of public advantage, he
considered it as oflittle import. Bete the honourable
member read a letter signed Richmond, written to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and dated July 16, 1833,
stating that the free transmission of English newspapers
and the circulation here of foreign ones, formed the only
emoluments of the officers of the foreign post-office. It
stated the amount to be about 3,5001., and added that
if those emoluments were done away, and the salariei
charged upon the revenue, it would be merely to ac-
commodate a few foreigners here, and some English
abroad, with articles of luxury. Surely, continued the
hon. member, after expressing such opinions as these, no
credit on this head can be claimed for a nobleman who
only acquiesced in a measure when he could no longer
resist it. These boasted improvements were put forward
to blind the house to the real state of the question—that
they may ask, " Will you meddle with a system so
complete, or in such a state of being completed?"
There was not, he contended, in Europe a system SO
defective as ours. How different from that of France,
where every year was issued a publication giving every
necessary information on the subject. Our system *as
confused through excess of legislation. There were
no less than 107 acts of Parliament applying to the
subject, and if they intended to effect any good pur-
pose, and do away with the confusion which at present
existed, they should consolidate the laws upon this
subject. The whole question might be comprised
within the single and simple point, was the present
Post-office system calculated to work the greatest good
at the smallest expense ? No one could say that it
was (Hear) ; the present system was conducted at e
loss of 70,0001. a-year to the country. Another point
he would state was, and he would put it interrogatively,.
did the Post-office afford the greatest facilities_ or
communication ? Was the system of transmission
of letters and papers the safest, the most expedi-
tious, and the best ? He would say, no ; and the
country would respond to him. ( Hear.) It was a
grievous delusion to fancy, that because a particular and
isolated portion of the system could be defended, the
whole body of the Post-office arrangements were,
therefore, unassailable. It was like the ostrich, that
while it thrusts its head into a hole in the sands,
foolishly fancied its body was secure. So, because a
particular department of the Post-office was fnobnoxious
to attack, the entire system was on that account to be
held exempt from reprehension. No doubt, well-
meaning individuals, maintained that, forsooth, because
the mail did not leave London on Sunday, no irregu-
larities were committed. But those " good easy men'
must not have thought that all the mails in the country
travelled on Sunday. The people of Barnet may re-
ceive and send off their letters on Sunday, a privilege
the people of London could not enjoy. Was that
right? ( Hear, hear.) The people of London surely
were entitled to the same privileges as the people Of
Barnet, or of any other place. The inequalities
between the condition of the people of London and
those of almost any other place, would alone deserve
the serious interposition of Parliament. Why should
not the people of London be allowed to send out and
receive their letters two or three times on a Sunday?
(Hear, hear.) In the present advanced state of
society there should be no difference between the rate
of postage here and on the Continent ; or here between
one place and another. He (Mr. Hume) would
advance another suggestion that the 2,000,00
now received by the Post-office should be paid
into the Exchequer, for in that case the people woe
have a more direct control over the fund, and that
the payments about to be made should come from
that quarter. It would be much better that there
should be appointed officers by the Treasury to oak°
payments to the Post-office functionaries, than that
the present blending plan should be continued-
was maintained, in opposition to the proposition 0
those who would remove the existing abuses a the •
Post-office, that the propounded system of ameliora-
tion would be attended with 200,0001. additional ex-
pense • but when the great facilities of conveyance
and the improved state of the roads were taken into
consideration, that objection would vanish. The fact
was, they should take the whole charge of the roads
of the country, and introduce a scale of payment on
the roads. There should be three posts leaving Lon-
don on every Sunday, and at twelve o'clock on Sun-
day there should be a post leaving town, as there w:a
every other day. The foreign conveyance to America
and the Indies was left perfectly free on Sunday
.as
on every other day. Why then should the transmis-
sion of letters from London to various parts of Enr-
land be suspended on that day ? The Clyde steam-
boats offered to carry letters whenever they sailed,
and they were not allowed by the Post office • that .
was a gross and wanton act o f infringement on the
public interest. ( Hear. )
He would contrast the eon-
duct of the French and the English ~overnment, and
by the contrast shovi how illiberal and unwise was the
British government. In France they paid according
to the distance, not so ,here. In France one should
not pay the postage of seventy-miles, though the let-
ter travelled only forty-seven miles. What he mainly
contended for was, that there should be allowed 'a
free transmission of letters and papers on both sides.
[The concluding words of the hon. member were lost
to us amid the general noise of the house ] •
Lord ALTHORP said the •
question was, whether
it was desirable to address his Majesty, praying him to
issue a commission ? He should, however, at the out-
set say, that the hon. member who spoke did not con-
vey any clear idea of what should be done. It was at
one time considered whether the question was not one
purely of revenue; at another, whether the revenue
should at all be considered ; for himself he, tv I ?'
bliCushoutd
that the convenience and interest of the p
etitrlne that he
be the chief consideration, at al.
cshould not be
thought the question of re%;iet sue regard to the transmis-
sion of old newspapers, to
disre-
garded. ( Hear, hear.)
3% which the hon. gentleman
'
(Mr. Hume) adverted, _
he begged to say that it was
not deemed expedient to include
old newspapers in the
arrangement about to take place. The hon. gentleman
propriety of consolidating the post-
officehad spoken of the
establishment, and
. complained of the delay le
bringing forward the bill for the consolidation of the
Stamp Office. With regard to that bill, he would
and
sure the hon. gentleman that it was in progress,
that the delay in not bringing it sooner forward 05'
occasioned only by the great pressure of Govertk
nnent
n
business. With respect to the delivery of letter
had
Sundays, to which the hon. member for GreeiTL, did
alluded, he (Lord Althorp) could only say hairrange_
not himself see any great objection to such
reeled feel-
ment ; but he must say, that in the P_
dient for the
ins of the country, it would not be
"Pseition of that
Government to brin foard a
Pr°P were delivered
description. ( Hear, hear.) If letters Isd
in the deli-
on Sundays, the only persons employe
erson
very would be the' letter-carriers, and thosety de_
in the Post-office who were connected with
_h_atmid,
tartment. The hon. gentleman the inembeZtr_office
dlesex Ind stated that the revenues of the este-
had not increased, although the expences (?!",`,5 why
blishment had. The hon. gentleman said.
where
.•
not send foreign letters to the colonies a
od e se
t
t vessels instead of Governmen Packets
by merchant