The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-07 00:00:00

RELATIONS WITH PORTUGAL.

Mr. ROBINSON begged to ask the noble lord whether
it was the intention of his Majesty's government to allow
him an opportunity of bringing forward his motion upon
the subject of our relations with Portugal? (Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. Robinson) put it to the noble
lord, and to the good feeling of the house, whether, as to-
morrow was a miscellaneous day, some opportunity would
not be afforded him (either early or late) of discharging a
great public duty ?
Lord ALTHORP said, that on the house going into a
committee of supply, the hon. member would have an
opportunity afforded him of bringing forward his motion.
:llr. ROBINSON said if an opportunity was not af-
forded him, he should be compelled to bring it forward
in a most unfavourable and disagreeable manner. He
did not blame the noble lord, because he was aware
that his situation placed him under very peculiar diffi-
culties.
FOREIGN ENLISTMENT REPEAL BILL.

Sir H. HARDINGE begged to ask what course was
intended to be pursued with the Foreign Enlistment Re-
peal Bill, which had been brought in by the hon. and
learned member for Leith, as he understood that the
right honourable gentleman to whose department it be-
longed, was at present out of town ? He hoped some inti-
mation of the course to be pursued would be given by
his Majesty's government.
Mr. STANLEY concluded that the regular course
would be to postpone it for the present. While upon his
legs, he begged to ask his hon. friend, whose motion on
colonization stood for Thursday, to postpone it, as an
opportunity would be afforded him before the termination
of the session of bringing forward the subject of coloniza-
tion and emigration generally, and his postponing it for the
present would be a great convenience.
After a few words from Mr. WHITMORE, the pur-
port of which we could not catch, the motion was post-
poned.
KING'S BENCH PRISON.
Mr. HUME begged to call the attention of his Majesty's
government to the present state of the King's Bench
prison. He (Mr. Hume) understood that the keeper,
or governor, was dead, and he trusted that no appointment
would take place until an inquiry had taken place into the
amount of the fees and emoluments of that office.

The SPEAKER begged to know what the sense of the
house was, relative to the order of the day for resuming
the adjourned debate upon the Irish Tithe Bill.
A conversation took place between Lord ALTHORP and
Mr. W. BROUGHAM, the purport of which we could not
hear from the great noise that prevailed in the body of the
house.

The SPEAKER then put the question, that the order
of the day for resuming the adjourned debate be now read.
Mr. WALLACE presented a petition from the county
of Carlow on the subject of tithes.
I%lr. BARRON presented a petition from the county of
Waterford, against tithes ; also one from Kilburn on the
same subject, which stated that it was worse than absurd
that the population should have to pay tithes to the clergy-
man of the parish from which the petition proceeded, in-
asmuch as he had no establishment there, nor was he ever
seen in the parish.
Mr. LALOR presented seven petitions against the
Tithe System in Ireland.
Mr. CHAPMAN presented various petitions to the
same effect.

Mr. RONAYNE presented several petitions from dif-
ferent places in Ireland to the same effect.
Mr. RONAYNE wished to ask the right hon. secretary
opposite if he had any objection to lay on the table of the
house an account of the tithe rent, as ascertained by the.
commissioners, and an exact statement of the ecclesiastical
revenue in Ireland ?
_ Mr. LITTLETON said there had been no such state-
ment or information communicated to Government on the
subject of the tithes of Ireland. The commissioners had not
yet completed their labours, and any information therefore
he might be able to lay before the house, could not be but
incomplete. As to the ecclesiastical revenue, he had re-
ceived some papers to-day, and to-morrow all the informa-
tion he had in his power to communicate should be given
to the hon. member.

Mr. RONAYNE wished to know if the right hon. Se-
cretary had any intention to bring forward the subject,
during the present session, of municipal reformation in
Ireland?

Mr. LITTLETON thought the hon. member had much
better put that question to the hon. member for Monaghan.
Mr. FITZ SIMON presented two petitions from the
county of Dublin against the tithe system in Ireland.
Mr. H. GRATTAN presented a petition from Castle-
more to the same effect.

Mr. BLAKE presented petitions from several parts in
Ireland to the same effect.

Upon the SPEAKER putting the question that the
bill be read a second time,
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the house be counted,
when the gallery was cleared for that purpose, and there
being more than 40 members present, the house resumed.
Mr. RONAYNE, upon our entrance into the gallery,
was opposing the second reading of the bill. He said that
the reason why the hon. and learned member for Dublinhad counted the house was perfectly manifest ; it was
in
order to show that though the Government last night
could command the attendance of hundreds in support of
the pensiorlist, they could not command more than 100 when
the question was whether or not Ireland should be visited
with the tender mercies of the police and the military. The
present bill, he contended, was intended to perpetuate tithes
under another name. With respect to the breach of confidence
which was stated to have accompanied the production of
the letter of the Marquis of Anglesea to Earl Grey, he
could state that the observation, if applied to him, was
without foundation. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord knew
that there were many modes, without treachery, of
obtaining such a document. He had read a paragraph in
a paper, in which a certain individual was stated to have
said that he could not tell how any gentleman could make
use of such a document. He would only say that, as
far as the observations applied to him, he would
take that opportunity of giving it his strongest and most
indignant refutation. He did not think it necessary to give
the source of his information, as he had a precedent in the
noble lord (Althorp), who had refused to name the
author of a calumny upon a member of that house, which
was admitted to be false and futile. For the purpose of
saving a noble marquis (Anglesea) he would read part of
his correspondence. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member
then proceeded to read from some Irish newspaper, an
intercepted letter of the noble marquis; in which he
condemned the practice of compelling 8,000,000 of people
to pay towards the support of an establishment to
which they did not belong. The honourable member
was proceeding to remark upon Mr. Secretary Stanley
sitting with his feet " cocked" upon the table, and " smil-
ing contemptuously," when
The SPEAKER called him to order.
Mr. RONAYNE would repeat, that not only himself,
but every member around him, had repeatedly had occa-
sion to express to each other the indignation they felt at
the gross insolence—it was far beyond disrespect—with
which the Right Hon. Secretary habitually treated the
house.

Mr. STANLEY rose to order. He did think that in
discussing a public question, the lions and learned mem•

ber was perfectly unjustifiable in making remarks of a per-
sonal nature; especially when, as in the present instance,
those remarks had been altogether unprovoked. (Hear,
hear.) He denied having been ever, intentionally at any
rate, guilty of disrespect towards the house. ( Hear, hear. )
If on the present occasion he had smiled, it had been at
the preconcerted plan which so palpably appeared to have
been got up between the hon. and learned member for
Dublin and the honourable and learned member for
Clonmel (Sir. Ronayne), viz., that the former should
count the house, although there were evidently above a
hundred members present, and that the latter should in-
troduce a clap-trap, to be duly transmitted to Ireland,
about " 500 members being present when the Pension List
was to be defended, but only 118 when the question was
whether Ireland should be given up, &c. &c." (Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) He would recommend the hon. and
learned member, when next he had the house counted, to
take particular note of how many members of the name of
O'Connell were present. (Roars of laughter.) On the
present occasion the hon. and learned member was the
only representative of that name honouring with his pre-
sence the discussion as to " whether, &c. &c."
Mr. O'CONNELL said, it was a pity that the right
hon. Secretary had not applied himself to answering, if he
could, the very first remark of the hon. and learned mem-
ber, instead of making an attack upon him (Mr. O'Con-
nell), who had taken no part in the discussion. (Hear,
hear.) The right hon. Secretary's charge against him was
distinguished by the right hon. gentleman's usual want of
veracity. (" Order, order," " Chair.")
The SPEAKER said that he was sure the hon. and
learned member would at once see the necessity of with-
drawing these expressions.
Mr. O'CONNELL would content himself then with
asserting simply that the charge made against him by the
hon. gentleman was not founded in fact. (Hear, and a
laugh. He had concerted no plans whatever ;he had
come own to the house impressed with the importance of
the question pending, and had been disgusted at the thin-
eneedss
he
ef the house, hhoeduseth,
the house
feelings
ef. attendance,the
moment, and from no concerted plan. He would never
think of infringing upon the Whig patent for shuffling and
trickery. He fully agreed with the hon. and learned mem-
beredcoun.ittehd last
mthe night's
that the right hon. Secretary's bearing towards the
house was habitually most insolent and improper. The
running comment upon the opinions expressed by those on
the opposition side of the house, his sneers and gestures,
his insolent habit of throwing his heels upon the table, in
contempt and defiance of the whole house, had been re-
marked with indignation and disgust by every member on
benches opposite to him. (Hear, hear, hear.) In answer-
ing, the right hon. Secretary had gone out of his way to
attack him ; but he was pretty well used to the right. hon.
Secretary's assaults; and cared very little for them. Use
makes easy.
Mr. RONAYNE denied that any plan had been con-
certed between himself and the hon. and learned meml?er.
He then referred to the motion made by the hon. member
for Middlesex, on the 6th of May, 1824, for an inquiry
into the Ecclesiastical Establishment in Ireland, with a
view to its removal ; on which occasion some speaker had
described the " Irish as a bigotted and illiterate people,
possessed of all the virtues and all the vices of savages,
who looked with jealousy at anew religion which appeared
to have been thrust on them by their conquerors." Yes,
these savages did look with abhorrence at this establish-
ment, and sooner or later they would cease to contribute to
its support. They knew very well that the establish-
ment was kept up principally as a standing fund out of
which to portion the junior members of the aristocracy.
The hon. and learned member then referred to a circum-
stance of the population of the united dioceses of Water-
ford and Lismore, drawn up in 1826 by competent per-
sons, from which it appeared that the Catholics in this dio-
cese were no fewer than 231,818, while there were only
10,141 Protestants—this was the proportion of the popu-
lation on which this bill was to inflict a perpetuation of
the payment of tithes. The property of the clergy in '
Ireland was more than sufficient to maintain them in
more than becoming dignity and splendour. In Tipperary
alone the clergy possessed 117,000 acres of land—the
property in land of the bishops in Ireland was 700,000
acres. (Hear, hear.) Yet the establishment was to re-
main untouched, merely because it afforded a fund on
which the right hon. baronet, the member for Tamworth,
and other noblemen and gentlemen, might pension off,
make bishops and archbishops of their tutors, and so on, at
no expense to themselves.
Sir. R. PEEL exclaimed, " No, no."

Mr. RONAYNE would say, " Yes, yes !" There were
wanting no instances in proof of his assertion. As to this
church establishment, he was not alone in his opinion that
it was a nuisance, for the hon. member for Westminster
(Sir F. Burdett) had pronounced it such ; so had Lord
Brougham ; so hid Lord Ebrington ; so had Mr. Domi-
nick Browne ; so had Mr. Ellice ; who had all voted in
the minority op the hon. member for Middlesex's motion
with reference to this church establishment. Of the course
pursued towards Ireland they had a recent illustration in
some deplorable occurrences in Limerick. Government
sent out their police and their army, and four people were
killed and twenty wounded. Ile believed sincerely that it
was to proceedings like these that they might attribute the
Whiteboyism and outrages of Ireland.
Mr. P. LALOR objected particularly to the present
proposition for the commutation of tithes. Tithe compo-
sition had not been voluntarily entered into by the people
of Ireland, the fact being that they had been forced into it
by the addition of a number of the highest rate-payers.
The composition had had this effect : it had opened the
eyes of the people to the amount that they paid, and the
consequence had been their resistance to tithes. Were
tithes abolished, the amount would not go into the pockets
of the landlords, but would go to relieve the country gene-
rally. The church was rich enough to support itself with-
out the aid of tithes.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that the commutation
provided for in the bill appeared to him to be the best
basis on which tithes could be settled in Ireland, accom-
panied as it was by a table of reduction, and by an easy
power of redemption. The hon. member for Tipperary
and other hon. gentlemen had, with great ability, pointed
out what they considered the defects of the present bill ;
but they offered to the house no suggestions of their own
for a better system of procedure. The hon. and learned
member for Dublin having been examined before a com-
mittee of the house on the 11th of March, 1825, said, in
his evidence—" The Catholic people of Ireland are not
anxious to transfer the property of the church into other
hands ; and if the people of England were acquainted with
that fact, they would not be so opposed as they are to the
Catholic claims." He (Sir H. Willoughby) might as-
sert, then, on the best testimony, that, at all events, at the
time to which he alluded, the Catholics of Ireland did not
seek a different appropriation of the church property. He
believed that if the tithes were abolished the landlords
would derive the whole benefit. Though he was friendly
to the principle of the bill, there were particular clauses in
it to which he was opposed. But that being a matter of
detail he should reserve his statement of the objections he
had to make till the bill got into committee.
O'CONNOR DON said that there were two grounds
on which he felt disposed to support the bill ' • the first was
his sincere desire to promote the interests of Ireland ; and
the second was, because it was professed that the bill had
for its object the establishment of tranquillity in that coun-
try ; but he must confess he was of opinion that the right
hon. Secretary for Ireland greatly miscalculated the bene-
fits which he thought the bill would confer. The right hon.
gentleman should take into consideration the tone and tem-
per of the people of Ireland at the present time as regarded
the subject of tithes. The people considered that they had
the power to resist the collection of tithes by passive re-
sistance. This was not a period for half measures. If they
would restore peace to Ireland, they had no alternative but
a general compromise—there must be that on the one
hand, and on the other a declaration that tithes were to be
differently appropriated. (Hear, hear.) lie believed that
by the present bill the amount of the tithes was increased.
lie felt convinced that the appropriation of the tithes must
be immediately looked to, as he was satisfied this property
could not continue to be appropriated to the support of the
established church. In this opinion he was not alone. It
was shared in by a Protestant clergyman of eminence, the
Rev. Dr. Hincks, from one of whose letters he would read
an extract for the house. [The hon. gentleman here read
the extract, which was to the effect, that tithes could not
be looked upon as a permanent property for the church,
and that some mode of final adjustment of the question
should be promptly resorted to.] The hon. gentleman
proceeded to state, that in any plan relating to such adjust-
ment, he should be most desirous to secure the rights of
present incumbents. He protested against the proposed
bill, as one calculated to press unequally. The circum-
stances of Ireland were too different from those of Eng-
land to permit the extension of a similar measure to both
countries. (Hear.) Equalize them in circumstances, and
then follow up with every other equalization. (Cheers.)
' In conclusion, he would only say, that no matter by what
name they called it--whether land tax or tithe—it never
could be collected either by landlord or agent. (Hear. )

Mr. ROCHE did not believe the prop—osed measure was
one which would give satisfaction in Ireland, or put an
end to the conflicts to which the antipathy to tithes in Ire-
land gave such frequent occasion. A measure so ineffi-
cient, therefore, could not (as we understood him) meet
his support.
Mr. RUTHVEN felt that nothing could be expected
from the bill before the house but a continuance of the mi-
sery which existed in Ireland. Nothing would remove
that misery short of a measure which would rid the coun-
try of an ascendancy church, from which the great majo-
rity of the people dissented. Indeed, as regarded the State
Church, the Catholics were in reality the Protestants in
Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Let every church support its
own ministers. This doctrine was growing everywhere,
but its practical application was peculiarly required in Ire-
land. (Hear.) As regarded tithes in Ireland, he con-
tended that everything connected with them was unjustly
conducted, and instanced a parish in Louth, where the
composition had been raised from 1,7501. to 1,9001. He
also adduced the case of a neighbouring parishwhere tithes,
which in 1832 were 3681., were in 1833 raised to 5091.,
and in 1834 to 5901. The hon. gentleman concluded by
protesting against the bill as wholly inadequate.
Mr. O'CONNELL regretted to see the little attention
paid to a measure so all important to Ireland;, and he con-
fessed the want of attendance chilled his hoPel as to APY

btnefits intended for Ire land. It was this which on a pre-
vious occasion induced him to count out the house. Per-
haps he might have been wrong in the procedure, but he was
influenced by no other motive. (Hear.) Was it fair that
a question so paramount should be discussed before so thin,
so miserable a house? Why an Englishturnpike bill would
attract greater attention. (Hear, hear.) But why ;
should he have the presumption to compare anythin
Irish i
with anything English, however insignificant the latter ?
It was evident the ministry neglected and shrunk from the
trouble of discussing Irish questions. (Hear, hear, ;
from the Irish members.) When this report of such at- I
tendance went over to Ireland, it would at once decide
whether he was right or wrong in insisting that no mea-
sure would suffice for that country short of a domestic
parliament. How did the present appearance of the house
prove that Irish questions were met ? Were they not met
by neglect, by apathy, and absence ? (Hear, hear.) But
he would not pursue this train of observations to its conse-
quences. Were English members aware that the tithe war
in Ireland commenced as early as 1760, and that it lasted,
with some few pauses, for seventy-five years ? These
pauses occurred as sanguinary laws were passed to ince
the resistance, which broke out again with renewed virtu.'
Atrocious andhideous crime succeeded, and floods of human
blood were shed in this horrid warfare. (Hear, he
Could this statement—this summary of the history of the
tithe war be denied ? In 1763, the first act of parliataekut
was passed against whiteboyism, giving magistrates Pertur. , !
sion to punish with immediate imprisonment such partl
as did not disperse on the moment. The 15th and 16th
George 111., passed in 1795, made it a capital
punishable by death, for any one to attack a dwelling
house. By this act, any one could be executed who only
laid his hand upon a door. From blood theyproceeded` t°
proce t.
the suspension of the constitution ; and their penal enac
ments had accumulated since the union. There were the
courtsm artial and the insurrection acts to mark the da
felon'',
of Irish history--a history of crime and bloodshed, all
arising out of resistance to tithes, and marked with that
and even now the hon. member for Westmeath
worst of crimes, murder. Was Ireland, he asked, uclv;
tranquil? As he had foretold, a temporary lull was pro-
duced by the Coercion Bill ; but did it continue ? Had ne,,t
the magistrates of Westmeath called for proclamations'
to him that three baronies were proclaimed. Did any man
imagine that there was any prospect of trtinquillity in
Ireland unless that house passed some measure of pacifica-
tion? The right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. StanleY l'
when Secretary for Ireland, had talked much of vindicating,
in the first instance, the majesty of the law. The phrase
was fine and sonorous. But how was the vindication
effected ? Nothing less would vindicate the law in the '
opinion of the right hon. gentleman than the collection
t
of 60,0001. How much did he collect after the west
strenuous exertions ? 12,0001. only, and the cost 7
collection amounted to 28,000/. Was not this a lessen
Did not this indicate the temper and feeling now existing
in Ireland ? (Hear.) It was but too true that crime 'veal
prevalent in Ireland, and he should probably be to
out
with causing much of this crime by agitation. T° tee
taunt he would not reply, but he begged the house to.ri:a
member that history proved these crimes to have prevailed
long before and independently of agitation ; they were a
deep-rooted evil, which it was the duty of that tohousrers
had tried various remedies, but they had not tried remove. No one could deprecate the crimes which hi •
graced Ireland more than he did, and he would give -is
heart's blood to put an end to them. It was true that they
one. They had tried every remedy except that off; n
nishing the burden and changing the allocation. (arb. e
That house had now a great opportunity of conciliating t
affections of Ireland, and of fulfilling the pledge which they
gave when they refused to entertain the repeal of
fourth t
union. There was no want of members on the
night of that debate ; they were sufficiently ready to 'l'd:,
ter in opposition to repeal ; nor did they fail to go up ,
full array, Lords and Commons, Protestants, Dissenters.
and Quakers (A laugh), to warn the Crown against lister!
ing to that part of the wishes of the people of Ireland'l,.
They were ready enough to say a bad word fore Ire aiii
Now let them show their anxiety to embrace the f
lastingbenefit
opportu-
nity of bestowing upon Ireland a
whatmeasure was there to fear
and pacification. (Hear, hear.)
ber 1825
from Ireland? Did they not remem. .
' Is
Cathy- I
land was on her knees to England for justice to the
e_
examined on the remotest points b
lies—when they were ex
fore a committee of that house, and every one declared
~
that no fault was to be found with them in a political pow'
of view ? Ireland then urged England to an act of t
gene-
rosity and justice, which she misadvisedly refused. 1%,„°!,,
was the result ? Four years after England was compeu'•
to
stughegrigt.t
to surrender, almost disgracefully, what she ought the:l ,
be
received with gratitude. (Hear, hear.) But it might
asked, wherefore revive this ? De to fabula narraturl
have given with honour, and what Ireland would have then
(Hear.) The circumstances of that period applied in°'
reject those temperate and just demands which they . ;ell
ultimately concede. He was, he assured them, actU ~.
forcibly to the present, and he urged the house nonit to
by a most sincere and unaffected desire to bring this Oar_
ehyiswleiufel,dain)edttetor
breeteunranbilnedto
tion to a satisfactory conclusion ; and there was no per-
sonal
sacrifice which he was not ready to make to acc001;
plish it. (Hear, hear, hear.) Ile knew he was looked
on as an agitator ; but he was ready at once to abandon the
circle of his family, if by so doing he could facilitate the
accomplishment of this object, or if the house considered
that in sodoingpursuits ot
they
effect any plan to conciliate and pacify Ireland. (Cheers.)
He entreated his Majesty's ministers to reflect that theY
were now at a crisis, when the pacification of Ireland was
most essential. They were surrounded with difficulties.
They met with abundance of opposition from variet.u:
quarters. The agricultural interest was crying oat:.
relief—the trades' unions were growing to a porten 5 uoi
magnitude, and now against these proposed amendiuci,it,ir.,
the poor laws a powerfully hostile spirit was already: eca1.,.,..
ing itself. Surely, then, at such a time, the pacifi. t 1,7
of Ireland was a matter of the first consequence. e lis:l_`".d
they asked him how they were to pacify Ireland, he
pt'u",...
answer, by not enforcing compulsory paym i ,
the uoctrtnes
pose of supporting the clergy of a religion ul
,_
of that country
of which the great majority of the people
came to the 4 ~,
did not believe. (Hear, hear.)
lie
now
certain ..:
as to as
act itself. The first object of the bill w in tithes. ' ...]
what was the amount of the public property
he obiected '';''.
He did not object to this ascertainment, but d- most , I
to the manner and the mode, and on that grow! the ,
vote against it. Complaints had been made against into :4)
landlords in Ireland, but he would not enter
that
that ‘',l,
topics of irritation. (Hear.) He thought it justtithes :.:
there should be an ascertainment. He looked uF,turds nor ,lf
as public property (Hear) ; and that neither lat,t„ar,sasov ' i
tenants ought to have the spoil of it. (Cheers.) l!'' one, as
‘.
tainment of the property should also be a moderate,
was the case with the ascertainment of the teinds in „ot A";
tannent tras. yr 1
land. (Hear.) But the present ascer tirelo ne
moderate. He did not desire, however, an en.'valu-
valuation. He did not seek to disturb the exisupLA he
it, .I.`' o
ation in those parishes that were content with
isut w-
was bound to say they were numerous.
complained thereof the
very many cases, in which the parishes cool
li parishes he
valuation put upon their tithes, and tehs r investicration,
entreated there might be granted anot,f_ar Vas the
with instructions to value moderately. (Ll' lace, under
take p ...
house aware, that no composition could of the clergy
Mr. Goulburn's Act, without the consent
(A l uoth. ) In fact,'
man? It was a one-sided voluntary a ' 's Oil"
by Air. Goulburn . joa
so well armed was the clergyman pposlt
essful o
that there was no single instance of a succ _
aid v in,
ar.) In-the
on the part of the parishioners. (He ti
stances a value was set on lands which had not Pere 0-
before for fifty years. The commissioners—they were
toriously unfit for office. (Hear.) Indeed the iinP''
rodace
of that bill, and the effect which it was likely. top
c,t. front
tothcearpryrinvadt:
on the people of Ireland, might be fairly estiraati b,,, the
the fact that it was on its promulgation regarded eatest
Protestant party throughout Ireland as one of the fed on
benefits and blessings that could possibly be confe right
the Established Church. But in one respect the over
wha e
hon. gentleman's act was ineffectual, for, pass overcett`t
acts of that nature they please, they could never,
_noon
that determination which was generally felt !_nirra"ill'ationf
Ireland—that tithes should not be paid--a dercasantry °I,
of the most obstinate nature, and which the
or No lat i
his country had so often sealed with their the
'...,,inced it
re e" of the
than yesterday week four human lives were A
the county of Limerick, in an absurd r
,peschelin the to
peasantry to a force which must oT tco cows and lu-
party of the 85th regiment distraineo `ixture of the
~.
pigs for tithe. The tale was a dreadful
rnsoldiers in pasa,
dicrous and the horrid. ( Hear.) The body of oat
large ~ n
ing through a village? were attacked by a
tiding shed for-
santry with sticks and stones, and, notwiticisni, rush 'suit
refraining conduit on their part, a man a tuas ' The re the
ward and fired a pistol at one of the part to say' tbatt the
was lamentable ; but this he felt it his duty ,etv, els is,
King's troops behaved with the utmost pror_t the the
police behaved with great propriety, and tn'and that ble
trates also behaved with great propriety 1
attributo..,.
deaths of these unfortunate men were entire Y.,,vhat hest.aeso
to their own misconduct. (Loud cheers.) :the part_,Tan
now struggling for was this—that whereveTat falhev
were satisfied with the existing valuation, thought ' '
ld b°
should remain untouched; but where they
co, shouit,
had just cause of dissatisfaction, their g
-ricsralnd reason' theY
once more inquired into, and that by a fa himself tha uot
ledge was
commission (Hear), and he would 1) . Ile • once.
would be content with such ascertainments for eits.,d this
contending before them for victory—lnt:lit to suspe.that it
(Hear.) He implored of the Govern,
re .
d of theln ~ that
bill, at least for the present. He imP :e it emanate°, that
might be taken back to the office
whence
it well, an,',l_, ac,
his Majesty's Government would conho ractical:ont
were
they would consult some persons
w This the Gove_d been
quainted with the great question. .
4. n Ireland ha t 00,
,
had not doneman of any pariy 1 miniit n° COn
consulted on the subject. Probably they
Pe
to,nred
Sider him (Mr. O'Connell) as the most ht e as
respected that
sult on such a question. Yet he most resp ~,, on _
„,
them, that should his Majesty's Government,.eetr'ng ef‘lroitli
honour, he would cast aside from him every 1 "
to thou ender
tility and unpleasantness, that he would go and r ~en,
all the humility of a beggar asking for alms,
e._
enableotSoe
them all the assistance in his power to iv e, to
nd to! led
to avoid these crude attempts at legislation:
and, eu
r,,
some measure founded upon enlarged view • ,row IVP
to accomplish the great and alt-important end n

tranquillity to Irelane. (C:icers.) One word with refer-
ence t° ltd bill itself. How could the house expect such
a bill to allay disturbances in Ireland, when, instead of re-
moving the cause of those disturbances, it held out the pro-
spect of a
constant continuance of the same burdens?
press(lle_,ar hear. ) The burdens were shifte but they still
"' on the shoulders of the people. You now propose
to take the fifth of this property from the church, and give
it to the landlords by way of purchasing their consent to the
measure. (Hear, hear.) He saw no very great difficulty
11 _ entirely abolishing this compulsory payment. First,
they themselves had admitted the principle of taking
one-fifth
from the church. Then to provide for an-
ther fifth. Would this country, he should like to know,
',se to come forward with an advance of a second fifth
we wie hundred and twenty thousand pounds a year dead
larht, diminishing annually? (Hear, Would Eng-
Din; 'would that house, consider this too great a sum to
re to pacify Ireland? ( Hear, hear.) You gave 2,000,0001.
° the Chartered sch.)oo'i_s Was the pacification of Irelan
of less You gave 1,300,000/. to the King's
okrnlY in Ireland exclusive of police. Would that be ne;
-essarY if the war tithes were extinguished i
'
h,,anti? Who would object to it? No one.; not even
t.„7l°n• member for Middlesex himself; and if any over
argous economist were to call the grant into question,
'''at a triumphant answer would that minister have, who
could rise and sa " True ; I have given 120,0001., but
~,ziave pacified Ireland." (Cheers.) He forgot to add the
ant of 20,000,000/. for the negroes. Of course, he had
,-°t the vanity to compare Irishmen with negroes ; but the
nation which refused not 20,000,0001. to strike off the
lo'a'ns of West Indian slavery, could not refuse 120,0001.
trestore peace to Ireland. The third fifth he would
sr. ge on the inheritance of the land, as a debt, paying
' „Per eent. interest where the landlord would not 'buy
Lt ..IP. There would be no difficulty in this, and even
—.melts in tail would not stand in the way of such an
tarhrang„, ernent. The remaining two fifths he would lay on
Land, with a ower of redemption at twenty years'
'arehase. This was his plan (Hear, hear) ; and if the
err
left!Yiiigave up one fifth, there certainly would be enough
ron,„, the remaining four fifths, for every possible
and could be h' hecclesiastical revenues of Ire-
from the wle;timate the
ly adopted, whilst it would take
r People all sense of the burden. On the con-
t arY, the effect of the present bill would be merely
Put the landlord into the Agrarian war, in which
the
clergyman
tendedw engaged. (Hear, hear. ) Every
roan who had to the ominous aspect of affairs
in Ireland, must have observed how nearly the Agra-
:lan disturbers in that country had approached the refusal
a Pay rent as well as tithe. (Hear.) As far as the land-
lords were concerned, the bill would be ruin to them, for
it„would come into operation just as the Agrarian war had,
theits_ own accord, come to their door ; and would
tutpitly,"
o"last, and perhaps only motive
trequteiredthteo carry
4.e,1. quarters. Once more he en rea a house to look
'4.1 his proposition. He did not propose to attack vested
tights ; on the contrary, he would preserve to every in-
eurnbent his full advantages and emoluments. (Hear,
ear- ) But, after the decease of all existing incumbents,
he thought some alterations might with fairness and justice
be made. For instance, in parishes where there was no
Protestant, he thought no Protestant clergyman ought to
lie paid. (Hear.) In that case his hon. friend (the mem-
ber for Roscommon) would wholly escape. Nor was the
!se of his parish a singular one. Wherever as many as
e-fourth of the inhabitants were Protestants,_ there he
elcuild not object to continue the emoluments to Protestant
thergYinen as fully as they enjoyed them now. This he
po(uight most moderate. (Hear.) Why, if it were pro-
41_ in England, that in every district, one-fourth of
theleu were dissenters, the whole inhabitants should pay for
would of the church, of that minority of a fourth there
th_ 'o instantly be a mutiny ; but he would engage that
Cape
People of Ireland, from the Giant's Causeway to
(5: Clear, would with one accord ratify his proposition. I
1-'eadr ouurse, as these items fell in, they would relieve the
ntew eight. But it might not be unwise to seek some
titabpocation ; and if part of it were bestowed for cha-
th:Pw-13, 'tiese, he did not think it would be a perversion
sap - n°. And when upon works of charity, he would
etNalistmind he asked not for it—but if they were
wouidY desirous with himself to conciliate Ireland, he
Brat„ suggest whether any thing would tend more to feel-
the that great object, than some trifling provision, as by
gioerehase of small glebes for the ministers of that reli-
(qe 0 which they were devotedly and fervently attached.
tniseral cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") Let him not be
Nerken. This was not' made by authority—it was a
loss -ofsuggestion of his own—it might even cost him a
ready to ; but there was no popularity he was not
aatii'„"°, sacrifice for the pacification and advantage of his
1e /I,n.- 'and. (Hear, hear.) He had spoken at greater
Fee,:l4 than he intended,. and he.hoped.th. at he had suc-
Irtit.f.' as he was anxious to do, in avoiding all topics of
Part n. (Hear.) If he were irritated in the earlier
(eh °f. the evening, he expressed his sorrow for it.
atiti heee9 He never in his life retained an angry feeling;
Aould.press to his heart his greatest enemy, if he
he but join him in any scheme for the pacification of
he h .d. He entreated them to think of the plan which
whielt hastily sketched out to them. If it were one of
lected." reflection they did not approve, then be it re-
raile 0 But if it appeared to be a plan which reason
eotruneollithem to adopt, and which pure Christian charity
deration( ed, then he implored them to put out of corm-
Proposed anY feeling they might entertain towards him who
ticators it, and to assume to themselves the office of paci-
but of Ireland, with the full assurance of his humble,
i, in:st cordial support. (The hon. and learned gentle-
t7se a), t down amidst loud cheers from all parts of the
"„
air. SHAW objected that the bill took away from the
raZeo one-fifth of a property already valued at too low a
11,-„°• As to the principle of the proposition made by the
h-q. and learned member for Dublin, it was the same as
,tat of the bill. He (Mr. Shaw) attributed the evils
faieli had recently taken place with respect to tithes in
eland principally to this circumstance, that when the
'4lits of the tithe owners had been vindicated by the law,
I,es!l When that tithes were in most instances on the point of
ibly` paid, the noble lord opposite, no doubt with the best
titri:mns possible, had stated in that house that no more
of 0: were to be collected in Ireland. The consequence
me,,Zt• declaration was inevitable. The hon. and learned
tore had
f. 0.1: Dublin, arguing upon the fact that the legisla-
ehureh e:'fen to Scotland it wished—an established
the Peopleuor able to the opinion of the great majority of
dieney
of that country—urged upon them the expe-
t4bb.,le to tilying to Ireland an established church conform-
opinion of the great majority of the people of
hzieountry—of
gthe Catholic religion the esta-
kea:d church of Ir'elannd. (No, no.) Why that was the
learnn'g, and that would be the result of the hon. and
orp, 4 member's propositions. Let the tithes be made
estahlisitlhe Catholic church, and then that would be the
ed religion.
nOetula.,,Seer ery STANLEY, in common with other hon.
uori. el—e; beta Perhaps from circumstances, more than any
twhiteiell thrnner, was struck with the tone and manner in
obs
r, on. and learned member for Dublin had made
For thae, -ations which he had submitted to the house.
au • L tone
and for that manner he (Mr. Stanley), as
°ll. the hual member of that house, and as one who, wh.
Intere,t 4,011. and learned member might suppose, toos no
earned m the welfare of Ireland, returned the hon. and
his sincer:bTher his best thanks. (Hear; hear.) It was
would on Zmviction, that if the hon. and learned member
same ' a" oe • rnihines
_ occasionsfollow up his arguments with the
th s, With r, s, with the same temper, with the same calm-
e he same abstinence from irritation,not only would
"tard,,y\ and learned member never hear from him (Mr.
}if Politie'_,a sin
he sllable which could bear the character
e nicr, al bitterness, but the hon. and learned member,
cois,,St conscientiously believed, would, by such conduct,
te,es'at and to an incalculable degree cond to i-
n-I,,,!'ts of his own country. Hear, hear. )Not heten,
crer, the able and eloquengtheech which the hon. and
(`fined gentleman had that night ‘.lr. Stanley) to accede to his made, would induce him
Ned, that the temper and the proposition.cad th But he re-
l'u• and learned member had treatedrtiAl.
,ssubwjhecieth, dthe-e
Ittalided that the hon. and learned member argumentst
I,tertild be dealt with in an equally conceded
dture spirit. The hon. and learned member had said that
144 g the last seventy-four years the ti.the system in Ire-
lie (Ind been productive of every description of calamity.
4..11 th\ "r• Stanley) would not attempt at that time to trace
he );,;:,..e evils at the period in question to those sources ; but
froro—„ out too deeply sensible that many of them had arisen
was 'nn: tithe system-. That was no new opinion of his ; it
and le,rnwhich he had frequently expressed. The hon.
eetnpos.ted roember contended, however, that the tithe
th 1 104
at the effected by the last act was one-sided ; and
Would araount was so unreasonably high, that the people
,\l'9t attend at the proper periods prescribed by the
orated th°w, as a proof how highly he (Mr. Stanley) esti-
ti'en the tone which the hon. and learned member had
1:4 of theit he would not say one word in reprobtape
°Ale means which had been used to induce h
ta to
t ), that . et as they had done. Nay, further, he would.
t'''l„au an}' reasonable prospect were held out of coming
he -faule settlement of this great and important gues-
s j' for ever cease to look on the past. ( Hear. )
I,l4'tefs a/7„iifwilli.ngly close with any proposition of that na-
ts „,ge part; '4l inducement could be successfully held. out
o s 'es who had not obeed the law to obey it, he
irpktport,tatlT, let there be a locus penitentia'—let a further
11„°,. the tY be allowed them, and let no inquiry be made
cause
noir' '4 the of their former disobedience. (Hear.)
obi (nit Proposition of the hon. and learned member
the the sueh prospect ? Would it tend to the great
haelio°ll. andllaeification of Ireland ? What was it which.
--tencq tr,earn„ ed gentleman proposed ? He (Mr.. S.)
to theeno. and that proposition with the deepest anxiety.
au ar:nv an 'earned gentleman's first proposition went
W 41,41 pou;tial land-tax over Ireland—to throw over it
tf tivl'ePare,frg c--and the hon. and learned gentleman
triet,e arrao, take the present composition as the basis
4,04-ment, subject to alterations in certain dm-
Atli; 400. a ,ng to circumstances which he had specified.
oper from 411" learned gentleman proposed to deduct me-
an(' .tiori of et, income of the clergy, which would be the
the earoed "e bill of his right hon. friend. The hon.
p be adg, entlemau then proposed that another fifth
1141 d travanced by this country, in order to secure the
11 the equality of Ireland, in which peace and tran-
°ll' anti learned gentleman stated that this

Country had a deep interest. Of that fact no man in the
house was more sensible than he (Mr. Stanley) was. But
this propositon was GZIc t,) which he (Ali% Stanley) could
not listen, neither ch. !air ilord nor the tenant in Ireland
having a claim to sit. .sacrifice, unless, of which he was
by no means at pre,nt persuaded, he could be quite sure
that the peace and tranquillity of Ireland would be ulti-
mately secured by it. The bill of his right hon. friend
dealt with the remaining four-fifths of the tithes, by char-
ging them prospectively on the landlord, and affording
him the means of either redeeming that charge by a fixed
payment, or by making it an annual rent. The proposition
of the hon. and learned member was, that after deducting
one-fifth from the clergy, and after the advance of another
fifth by this country, the remaining three-fifths should be
laid, one-fifth on the landlord, aud the other two-fifths on
the tenant.

Mr. O'CONNELL—That one-fifth should be immedi-
ately raised on thelandlord, and the other two-fifths remain
on the tenant.

Mr. STANLEY—Yes, and that was the proposition
against which he (Air. Stanley) must contend. The house
had been told over and over aga►n, that it was not the
amount of the tithes that was objectionable, but'that it was
the principle of paying them at all.
Mr. SHEIL—That is the whole case.

Mr. STANLEY—If that was the whole case, why was
the house to be amused with the prospect of pacification,
which depended merely upon a diminished amount of pay-
ment? If that was the whole case, it was hardly necessary
that he should say a single word more on the sub-
ject. It was quite clear, that by multiplying the number
of paymasters, the difficulty of collecting the tithes would
not be lessened ; but, on the contrary, would be greatly
au,,,crmented. He grieved to say, therefore, that the hon.
and learned member's proposition for securing the tran-
quillity of Ireland by a great sacrifice on the part of the
people of England, appeared to be a perfect fallacy. No
man could say that the amount of tithes was at present
unreasonable. The real point then was, would they main-
tain the established church in Ireland, or would they
abandon it? (Hear, hear, hear.) Much as the subject
tempted him, he would not enter into it. Nor would he
touch upon the question of appropriation, which was one
for the future consideration of parliament. But, per-
suaded as he was, that the bill of his right hon. friend
provided a system of collection much more easy than that
at present existing, and afforded the parties the means of
reducing the charge upon them on fair, and equitable, and
indulgent terms, he must certainly prefer it, modified, as
in some respects it might be in committee, to the proposi-
tion of the hon. and learned member for Dublin. He
thanked the house for the patience with which they had
listened to 'him, and he assured the hon. and learned
member for Dublin, that although he could not assent to
his proposition without being aware that the ultimate views
with which that proposition was made would be realized,
he had spoken without one feeling towards the hon. and
learned gentleman except that of sincere gratification at
the tone and manner in which the hon. and learned member
had that night addressed the house, and of earnest desire,
both for the hon. and learned member's own sake, and the
sake of Ireland and of the empire, that that tone and man-
ner might be continued. If so, he would assure the hon. and
learned member that the feeling would be reciprocated on
his (Mr. Stanley's) side of the house ; that it would render
the hon. and learned -member's future parliamentary career
in the highest degree valuable, and that it would add to
that distinction which the hon. and learned gentleman had
already gained by those talents and that eloquence of which
no one was a greater admirer than he (Mr. Stanley) was.
(Hear, hear. )
Mr. O'CONNELL explained.

Mr. CUTLAR FEAGUSSON should support the
bill, which he considered calculated to afford a great relief
to the people of Ireland. There had been a good deal said
about the appropriation of tithes, but he looked upon that
as a matter of subsequent consideration. (Hear, hear. )
The first object was to secure the payment of this und, and
this object could not be better effected than by the plan
contained in the proposed measure. (Hear, hear.) There
was one important point he would remark upon, which was
that part of the bill which regulated that the proceeds
arising from the redemption of the land-tax should be in-
vested
in the purchase of land to be given to the clergy.
(Hear, hear.) He had very strong doubts about the
policy of this regulation.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL expressed his gratification at
the conciliatory tone adopted by the hon. and learned
member for Dublin. If mutual advances such as those he
had been delighted at witnessing that evening were
adopted for the future, there would never again be heard
any complaints by Ireland that her interests were not at-
tended to with the same care as those of England and
Scotland. There would be no more of those unhappy
collisions between hon. members, very often on details of 1
the most insignificant description, which had hitherto
been so mischievous and productive of mutual recrimina-
tion
and hostility. (Cheers.) The two great points in
the question of tithes were their amount and their appro-
priation. With regard to their amount, it did not appear
to him that Ireland had any great cause of complaint.
With the exception of a few cases of peculiar exaction, it
appeared from the report of the tithe commissioners that
Ireland had not much to complain of, as to amount (Hear),
and whatever particular cases of hardship there might be
would be put an end to by the present bill, which was
adapted to establish one uniform mode of collection; and
to facilitate redemption. (Hear, hear, hear.) The ap-
propriation of the fund was quite distinct—the object of
the present bill was to secure the payment of the fund—its
appropriation was kept open for future discussion. (Hear.
If it were found that the present mode of appropriation di
not answer the intended purpose, then it would be for the
house to consider the propriety of instituting another mode
of appropriation. (Hear.) On a former occasion—when
in office he would premise—he had declared that the
amount of the revenue of that church in Ireland was too
large for the instruction, &c., of the persons who believed
in its doctrines, and for the stability of that church
establishment; and the more he reflected on the subject, the
more his opinion was confirmed. (Hear.) He did not
think it would be wise or politic to mix up the question of
appropriation with the present question, which was simply
one of the amount of tithes. (Hear, hear.) But when
Parliament had vindicated the right of this revenue, then
he should be prepared and ready to give his opinion as to
its appropriation ; and even if that opinion should force
him to the ungrateful necessity of withdrawing his support
from those men with whose political opinions he had had
most connection, and for whom he had the kindest private
feeling,. yet should he consider himself pledged, not only as
a conscientious representative of the people, but as one who
had assented to the resolution passed the other day, in
which the house pledged itself to give their best attention
to the just complaints of Ireland—in both these capacities
should he feel himself bound to give his conscientious vote,
whatever pain or sacrifice it might cost him. (Cheers.)
What that vote was would be seen from the declaration of
his conviction, that if ever a just complaint had been made
by a people, that complaint was a just one which the people
of Ireland made against the present appropriation of tithes.
(Immense cheering from the Irish members.) He should
deeply lament, as a matter of private feeling, any such
decision which he might be called upon to make ; but at
the same time, considering that having resisted to the
utmost of his power all projects for a repeal of the legisla-
tive
union—having to the utmost of his ability supported
this and former bills for the maintenance of tithe, or, in
other words, for the defence of the rights of property
against those who endeavoured to resist them—he should
feel it his bounden duty to give his strongest support to
any measure which he considered the most calculated to
do justice to Ireland. (Renewed and long-continued
cheers.
Sir F. BURDETT had never seen a prospect of pour-
ing oil into the wounds which had so long been rankling
in Irish breasts ; and of making the Union not merely a
legal Union, but a union of hearts and fellow-feeling.
(Hear, hear.) This object once attained, one of the
dearest wishes of his heart would be gratified. He was
most delighted to see the mutual advances which had been
made : the measures which were now brought forward
would have-the glorious effect of putting an end to the un-
happy discontents which had agitated Ireland and vexed
England from time immemorial. If the proceedings in
committee were carried on in the same conciliatory spirit,
he augured the best succesl to this momentous question.
It would be an honourable distinction for this age, that the
noble, fine-hearted Irish nation had become our friends.
cniwopulaildnhtsas w'
He considered the idea of providing for the Catholic
Ctlergy a very luminous one : had it been acted upon before,
i
have had
haandabpepeynemffeadctei.n preventing much of the
o
Major IIEAUCLERK said that the sentiments delivered
by the Paymaster of the'Forces had done him more honour
than any he had
uttered since the discussion on the Reform
It th
ewag
happi-
ness of Ireland that
at
Bill. (Hear, he
r ei
sned in
present
pappropriation
t heef
tithes
there should be altered.
Mr. BARRON could assure
one who wished to see the tithes to be
house that he was not
go into the pockets of the landlords. besaved by this measure
Ireland only could get this question Well, thaendpeople of
receive
justice at the hands of the British Parliament, they would
not seek the sTration of the two countries.
Mr. D. ROC,HE hoped that as the house had granted
the sum of 20,000,0001. to the West Indies, they would not
refuse the trifling sum of 120,0001. to Ireland.
Mr. LITTLETON would not detain the house two mi-
nutes. The plan of the hon. gentleman could, if adopted,
have the effect of perpetuating tithes ; 1 Site the object of
his (Mr. Littleton's) plan was to aboli: 1 them entirely.
This, therefore, was one objection to the plan of the hon.
gentleman. Another objection was, that it could only be
accomplished by a grant of public money; and he (Mr.
Littleton) thought it rather strange that, under the cir-
cumstances, the revenue could be expected to submit to
greater sacrifices. Another great objection which he en-
tertained to the plan of the hon. gentleman was, that it
would of necessity force on the house the question of ap-
propriation.
Mr. SHEIL rose amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh !" and
groans. He wished to put one question to the right hon.
gentleman the Secretary for Ireland. (Cries of " Oh, oh !")
The right hon. gentleman had said that the time had not
yet arrived for the discussion of the question of the appro-
priation of tithes ; and therefore he did not agree with the
noble Paymaster of the Forces. Now, let hon. members
gay "-Oh !" to that. (Loud laughter.) Now came hi'

question. (Loud cries of " Question, question!") He was
speaking to the question. It was a question which touched
the Cabinet to its core. He wished the house to recollect
that a cabinet minister bad just come forward, and in the
most solemn and deliberate manner had declared one thing,
while the right hon. gentleman came forward and declared
another. He (Mr. Sheil) had therefore a right to put the
question—whether, as there was such an extreme contrast
between the opinions of the noble lord and the right hon.
gentleman, what were the opinions of the rest of the cabi-
net on this subject? The house wished to put him down
on this occasion. He only asked for a fair field, and no
favour. (Laughter, and cries of "Oh !") He would not
be put down. The house would not hear him, but the
country would. (Oh, oh !) One word more, and he had
done. The bill contained a clause, securing the appropria-
tion of the tithe money to the clergy. Would the noble lord
agree to vote against that clause in committee ?
Lord ALTHORP said, that the hon. and learned gen-
tleman had said a great deal about the question ; but he
had not spoken to the question, but to the cabinet.
(Laughter. ) He (Lord Althorp) did not intend to sit
down without answering the question of the hon. and
learned gentleman ; but thought it proper, before doing
so, to make one remark. The bill now before the house
was to secure the collection of the revenues of the clergy,
which all must admit were not at that moment in a very
secure state. It also provided, that when those revenues
were secured, means be taken for the redemption, the entire
cessation of any annual payment of this nature. It was
necessary that this should be done first, as a measure of
justice to the clergy ; and secondly, as a measure of justice
to Ireland. The hon. and learned member for Dublin, in
a speech which had been commended in very warm terms
for its calmness and good sense, and in which eulogiums he
(Lord Althorp) fully concurred, said, and in that he agreed
with him, that if in his plan the peace and security of Ire-
land were insured, it ought to be adopted, though it might
cost the country a trifling sacrifice of revenue. But before
he (Lord Althorp) assented to the plan of the hon. and
learned gentleman, he must be satisfied that it would give
peace and security to Ireland. If once assured of that, he
would at once adopt it (Hear) ; but as yet he had no such
assurance. On the contrary, he thought that the propo-
sition of the hon. and learned gentleman would give no
greater satisfaction than the plan, of his right hon. friend
(the Secretary for Ireland) ; and, therefore, he did not
think the house ought to support those proposi-
tions. Another proposition had been made by another
hon. gentleman, that the system of tithes ought to be uni-
form in England and Ireland ; but that was a proposition
which he was sure the house would not adopt. The two
countries were not only unlike, but there was such a dif-
ference in the amount of tithes collected in one part of
Ireland and that collected in another, that the proposition
ought not to be adopted by the house. The house had
adopted one principle of composition, and he (Lord Al-
thorp) thought that in the meantime they had better not
disturb it. For these reasons he could not agree with
either of the propositions which had been submitted to the
house, and he trusted it would adopt the plan of his right
hon. friend. He would now come to the question of the
hon. and learned member for Tipperary. The hon. and
learned gentleman seemed to be surprised to discover that
there was a difference of opinion in the Cabinet on the
question of the appropriation of tithes. Why, he must
have been previously aware that such a difference of senti-
ment existed; for he (Lord Althorp) had on former occa-
sions heard him read extracts from the speeches of his col-
leagues, to prove that such difference of opinion did exist.
There was certainly a difference of opinion among Minis-
ters on that question, but all of them certainly agreed in
one point—namely, that when the revenues were secured,
that would be the fit time for the house to consider how
they should be appropriated. (Hear.)
Mr. WARD recommended the hon. and learned gentle-
man to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. A. LEFROY said that there were many of the de-
tails of the bill in which he did not concur ; but he sup-
ported it, in the hope that it would effect the peace, good-
will, and happiness of Ireland.
Colonel CONOLLY addressed the house under consi-
derable excitement. He said that when he announced his
determination to support this bill, his impression was that
the funds with which it would deal were to be applied to
the purposes for which they were originally intended. His
Majesty's government had since gone from that ground.
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") They had abandoned the distinct
proposition on the face of the bill, and he now claimed to
be released from the engagement that he had made at a
time when he was grossly deceived. ( Shouts of " Hear,"
and cheers.) When the bill was first introduced, he stated it
to be his conviction that there was not an honest man in
Ireland who would not give it his support, and he himself
was determined to assist in carrying it through. But
when he saw that there existed a determination on the part
of his Majesty's government to avail itself of his credulity
as the means of advancing such a principle as the house
had heard avowed, could he stand there as the represent-
ative of a large county in Ireland, and see, without resist-
ance, so outrageous an attempt at felo de se ? (Great
laughter, and hear.) He repeated that this would be an
act of felo de se; and in justification of his remark, he
would refer to the difficulty his credulity had led him into.
He had fancied that ministers meant to do what they said
they would do (Hear, hear, hear)---that they would con-
sider themselves pledged to what they had originated.
He for one had been shocked to a degree not to be
described when he heard announced the intention of go-
vernment. He had considered that he had to deal with
gentlemen and men of honour. (Loud cries of " Oh, oh,"
and " Order.") It might be supposed that he was led
away by his feelings on the present occasion ; he denied
that it was so. He, however, did feel strongly on hearing
that the church revenues were to be applied to other pur-
poses than that of the support of the church. His Majesty's
government having taken up this new ground, he would
only say that he never would support them in it.
Mr. Secretary LITTLETON said, that in the defence
of his own character, and in the defence also of the church
and his Majesty's Government, he must ask the hon. and
gallant officer if he was in the house when he (Mr. Little-
ton) submitted that resolution to the house, on which the
bill was founded? And if the hon. and gallant gentle-
man was in the house, he would ask him further, if he did
not remember, as nineteen-twentieths of the house no
doubt did, that he (Mr. Littleton) then stated that the
question of appropriation was a separate and distinct ques-
tion ? (Much cheering.) And if the hon. and gallant
gentlemen did remembr this, on what principle could he
reconcile to himself the language that he had used
(Cheering,) when he stepped forward and told them that
he thought, up to this moment, he had been acting with
gentlemen ? (Cheers repeated.) The hon. and gallant
gentleman having so expressed himself, he (Mr. Littleton)
would declare that, whether the hon. and gentleman sup-
ported the bill, or whether he withdrew his support from
it, was to him (Mr. Littleton) a matter of the most per-
fect indifference. (Reiterated cheers. )
Mr. WALLACE opposed the bill.
Lord EBRINGTON considered the question of appro-
priation to have been left an open question ; if he had not
so understood it, the bill would never have obtained his
support.
Mr. LEFROY, as a sincere friend of the church of Ire-
land, felt bound to support the bill, because it in fact did
appropriate the revenues to that church.
After a few words from Mr. O'CONNELL in explana-
tion, the house divided, when the numbers were

For the original motion 248
For the amendment 52

Majority in favour of the second reading —196
Mr. O'CONNELL was giving notice, on our re-admis-
sion to the gallery,"that on Thursday next he would take
the sense of the house on two points. The first related to
the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the
whole subject ; and the second was to give an instruction
to the committee to provide for the spiritual wants of the
Protestants of Ireland, and after that to apply the surplus
to such purpose as Parliament might think fit.
Mr. O'DWYER obtained leave to bring in a bill to re-
strict persons from proceeding in the superior courts of Ire-
land, for sums of a less amount than 101., except in special
cases.

Mr. PARROT obtained leave to bring in a bill for
the purpose of exempting lime intended for manure from
toll at turnpikes in England, unless especially charged with
toll by some local act.
Mr. SLANEY obtained leave to bring in a bill for the
purpose of facilitating the exchange of small portions of
entailed property, without having recourse to an act of
parliament in each case.
Mr. N. FITZSIMON moved for copies of any corre-
spondence which may have taken place between the lieu-
tenant and magistrates of the King's County and the Irish
government, relative to the necessity of appointing sti-
pendiary magistrates to act in that county.
Mr. LITTLETON defended the appointment of sti-
pendiary magistrates in the barony of Balinevoy, on the
plea of necessity. The district was in the heart of a
country which was admittedly in a disturbed state, and
though the district of Balinevoy was not so disturbed as the
rest, still it could not be exempted on account of its pecu-
liar position. After this explanation he did not think it
necessary to accede to the motion of the hon. member.
Mr. FITZSIMON withdrew his motion.

Mr. LITTLETON obtained leave to bring in a bill
to amend the Irish Valuation of Counties Act, and to pro-
vide for the more effectual levying of the grand jury cess.
Mr. SINCLAIR moved for the appointment of a select
committee .to consider how far the salaries of the judges
of the Supreme Court in Scotland are commensurate with
the importance of their station, and the nature and extent
of their duties.
Mr. GILLON moved, as an amendment, a reduction
of the salaries, to meet the alteration which had taken place
in the value of money, as compared with that of the pro-
ducts of industry and the necessaries of life.
Mr. MAXWELL seconded, and Mr. C. Fxacussow sup;
ported the motion.
The house then divided, when there appeared--
For the original motion
Majorit ......... .37
Against it . . ... .................................... 12
y...................... —25
The committee was then appointed, the other
orders of
the day read, and the house adjourned at half-past two.

A deputation from St. James's parish had an interview
on Monday with Viscount Althorp, at his residence in
Downing-street.