The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-31 00:00:00

BELGIUM.

Lord PALMERSTON brouv.ht up a copy of the con-
vention entered into between his Majesty the King of
France, and his Majesty the King of the Netherlands,
wi-h an explanatory article thereunto annexed.

Sit RICHARD VYVYAN said, before the House went
into Committee on the question of colonial slavery,
be had to present a petition from a body of his
Majesty's subjects, who felt greatly aggrieved by
the plan proposed by the Right Honourable Gentle-
man. It was a petition fioai the bankers, planters,
proprietors, merchants, and others interested in West
India property. The petitioners stated that they saw no
difference in property held under the still existing law—
(Hear)—which they contended was in favour of their
possessing such property as that of which the pro-
posed measure was intend d to deprive them ; that
much of that property had devolved upon them under
conditions that the granter should keep up and maintain a
certain number of slaves ; that under certain Acts passed
in the years 1819 and 1821, Government had itself
sold estates with slaves upon thena ; that by the resolu-
tion entered into by that House in 1832, it had recog-
nised the right of property, and had bound itself to pro-
vide a fair compensation for the value of the slaves, if the
State interfered with them ; that the petitioners had heard
with great consternation and dismay the propositions of
the Right Hon. Gentleman with regard to the abolition of
slavery, seeing that they amounted to an absoMte con
fication of property without an a !equate compensation ;
and that to proprietors anti owners of unencumbered
estates, the proposed plan afforded no compensation what
ever. The Hon. Member begged to say, that he had on
no previous oecasion gone so much at length into the read-
ing of a petition, but he thought that the present occa-
sion was one in which a deviation from his usual rule
would be readily conceded ; e-pecially as the p-tition
contained sufficient argument to induce the House to accede
to the player of the petitioners to be heard by counsel at
the bar of that House against the proposed measure. He
would not, however, go into any further argument, which
might provoke discus-ion, before the subject was regularly
under notice.—The petition wa. then read.
. .

The HoN. BARONET then pr.•sented another petition
from the linen, woollen, hardware, and other merchants,
brokers, shipowners, coopers, rope and sail-makers, iron
merchants, and other manufacturers connected with the
Sir,st Indian commerce of the city of Bristol, deprecating
the aduption by the H use of any tnea•ure of slave eman-
cipation not consistent with the wellbeing of the neeroes,
the lull sa►ety of the colonies, and the equitable consideia-
non of the rights of private property.

. .
Mr. GOULBURN preset) ed a pe ition to the same
effect, agreed to at a public meeting held in London, and
signed by 1,800 planters. merchants, shipowners, mt.
nufacturers, trailers, mortgagees, annuitants, and
others, interested in the preservation of the West
Indian ColonieQ. He was persuaded that he need
not apprise the House of the respectability of the
individuals who attended this meeting. and signed
this petition, nor call to its attention the weight that was
to be attached to their representatives as to the effects of
the projected scheme of negro ernancip ition, which had been
promulgan dby the Hon. Secretory. The petitioners wet e
divided into two classes—trose who had a direct person II
interest in the preservation of the West India colonies
and who considered that toe effect of the measure would
be to reduce them and their families to poverty and
distress—( Hear, hear, hear)--and those win were
not directly interested in the colonies—( Ilear)—
but who addressed the House as persons who felt the
benefits which had been derived from our colonial empire,
and that its destruction would be fraught with ruin to
the commerce, the naval greatness, and general and
financial prosperity of the country. Ti,e petitioners
only repeat the declarations of our enemies, who had al
ways held our colonial empire to be the greatest source of
our power. He joined in the hope the petitioners ex•
pressed, that the House would do nothing to destroy that
power.—The petition was then laid. upon the table.
Mr. FOW ELL BUXTON, in rising to present petitions
against slavery, from Inverness, Arbroath, Paisley,
and other places, said he would not follow the
example of the Right Honourable Gentleman who
had just sat down, and Iliake a long speech.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) The only observation he should
make would be that the petitioners differed entirely from
those who hid signed the petition presented by the Hon.
Baronet. They did not consider men and women as
chattels, to be bought and sold as commodities, to be
put up to auction ; but as men and women having the
same privileges and entitled to the sante consideration as
himself.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented various peti
tions from various parrs of Staffird.liire, against slavery.

COLONIAL SLAVERY.

The order of the day was then read for the House to
resolve itself into a Committee on the Colonial Slavery
question ; and on the motion that the Speaker do now
leave the Chair,

Sir R. VYVYAN rose to oppose the motion. Of all
thequestions brought before the Legislature, none was more
difficult than that on which the Horse was about to enter.
Strong opinions, partly reli4ious, and partly arising from a
philosophical view of the subject, were held by many.
Many who had pursued the subject, for years with no ordi-
nary zeal, advocated the measures brought forward by
Ministers, while others stated that they apprehended
misery for tly_mselves and their posterity, if the Mini-
sterial plan were adopted.—(Hear.) Never in his opt-
pion was there a time or a question brought before
the House, requiring so much forbearance. _ The

principle of interference which the plan of Minis-
ters acknowledged, was any thing but calculated to
accomplish the desired object. Rights of remote colonies
had been attacked, great changes were to be effected, but he
could not see the good that was to result from them. Tne
colonies, whether in the West or East Indies, had no direct
representation in that House ; but they had Members
there, he was glad to say, who had their interests mixed
up with their own, and who would sanction no acts of
Government that would be to their disadvantage. _ It

was true that the Honourable Member for Mid.
dl.sex, when the Reform Bill was under discussion,
had made a motion for the purpose of endeavouring to give
direct representation to the colonies, but that, he was sorry
to say, formed no part of the present Reform Bill. The
inbabitanrs of Birmingham and Manchester had obtained
that right on abstract principles, which was denied to
the colonies. No measure was ever more tyran-
nical than than, and be, for one, should always
say that nothing would be done for the colonies after
denying them a voice in that House. They had foreseen
wt at would be the consequence of this new constitution of
Parliament ; and when the Assembly in Jamaica met they
expressed their opinions en the subject in the answer
which they made to the address of their new governor the
Earl of Mulgrave. In that answer to the address, they
showed that whatever might be the opinion existing in

expressed their firm determination to adhere to the privi-
leges with which they bad been intrusted, and they pro-
tested against any violation on the part of the Legislature
A' Great Britain of those rights of a-if-government which
they had so long enj,yrd. They said, that "as this
House [the House of Assembly in Jamaica] did not recog-
nise the resolutions of 1829, nor adroit the right of the
House of Commons to legislate upon the internal affairs of
the colonies, even when the colonies had the benefit of

indirect representation in that House, they could not
possibly admit that a House of Commons formed upon the
principle of the actual representation of the people of
England, and of them alone, could justly claim to legis-
late over them their equal and free fellow citizens, who

had no voice in that flange." Several duclaritions had

been made to a similar effect by the House ofA:.semtily in

this country, they knew that the question of their rights
would be brought before the House of Commons, and they
believed that they should he sacrificed. They therefore
Jamaica, when they knew that the Reform Bill was about
to pa's, and that they would no longer be virtually repre-
cented within those walls. As might be expected, the

Eirl of Mulgrave would not admit the principle contained
in that address from the House of Assembly, or that he
would think of complying with their wish to be treated as
perfectly independent of the Imperial Parliament of Great
Britain; he, therefore, answered, that it did not become
him to enter in•o any discussion as to the principle which
they supposed to govern the representation in Eng-
land, as it had been amended by the Reform Bill,
hut he must deny that the colonists had ever had any re-
presentation in the House of Commons of England, as

colonists ; the persons who had sat in that House, and who
advocated their interests, had sat there as the representa-
tives of places in England, and might in the same manner
hove seats there at present. This observation of the Noble
Earl was not correct, for how happened it, that among the
merchants sent to confer with the colonial office, there
was not one who was a Member of that House. Where
was Mr. Irving, who was well entitled, both on account
of property and talent, to represent the interests of the co-
lonies—where was he? Not in the presest Parliament.
—(Some Hon. Member sail across the table, that his part-
ner was in the House.) Yes, but he did not come in for
the first time at the general election. Whatever might be
the opinion of the Noble Earl, the Governor of Jamaica,
it was very clear that at that moment they had
among them no individuals directly connected with
the West India interest. —(Hear, hear, hear.) He called
on the House not to be over hasty in attempting
to enfor:e their claim of legislative superiority, but to
respect the rights of others, as they wished to preserve
their own. He knew that on this point he was opposed

by the opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman; who
seemed to think that Parliament could do nothing

which should give the right of independent legislation
to the colonies. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said
that he knew of no self-denying ordinances.
Mr. STANLEY said, that be wished tii set the Hon.
Baronet right on this subject. The words he had used
were—" 1 know of no limitation of the authority of Par-
liament, except that which Parliament itself has imposed."
Sir R. VYVYAN asked what was the instance in which
the limitation cf authority took place?
Mr. STANLEY answered-1n the right of internal
taxation.

Sir R. VYVYAN—But what did that amount to?
Did the Right Hon. Gentleman mean to say, that if Par-
liament should declare it did not mean to meddle with the
right of internal taxation, Parliament could not afterwards
withdraw that declaration. He wished to know distinctly
from the Right Finn. Gentleman, whether the Parliament
could not recall the restriction which it might once have
imposed on itself. No one had ever asserted that the Par-
liament once having done a thing, could never alter its re

solution. But at all events a delegated authority to another
Legislature, ought to be indefeasible. That House itself
originally existed in virtue of a ddegated authority.
Magna Charta was granted to the Commons by
King John, and confirmed by King Henry 1. Was
not that a delegated authority ? That principle
was settled long ago. Tie Right Honour dale
Gentleman admitted that the Act of 1778 established
an exception to the omnipotence of Parliament ; but was
that the only exception? Was there no other instance in
which the interterence of Parliament was unjustified?
There was the case of Mr. Oatlis, in 1765. A feeling of
discontent then existed in the colonies, but it was unac-
companied with any expressions of violence. The grounds
of ri,roplaifit were, first, an interference with respect to
irite.nal taxation ; next, a claim to levy troops in the
colonies ; and lastly, to s. riff troops from Great Britain to
the colonies, and to maintain them there as long us was
deemed expedient by the executive in England. What
were the the qu.-stionm on which the mother country hal
hitherto interfered with the coloni•s? The Navigation
Law was one question, and the Slave Trade was another;
hut the continuance of slavery was merely a mitter ut
internal regulation, to which the colonial legislatures were
competent, awl of which they were the best judges. After
adverting, in a luw voice, to the events of 1778, and to the
conduct of Great Britain towards the United Stares at
that period, the Hon Baronet adverted to what he maid
had filen front the Hon. Member for Weymouth (Mr.
F. Buxton), that it the planters of the West Indies dad n.,t
quiely submit to the dictates of the mother country, they
must he compelled by coercion. He (Sir R. Vyvy in) did
not appri bend that they meant to make even the show of a
resistance by violence ; hut, supposing Great Britain
should attempt to tyrannize, was there no danger
that our West India c•lonists might Ise driven to keep
up a foreign correspondence, if they did not resort
to fe.reien assist .nee? He meant to bold out no threat
of the kind ; but it was in the power of the House to
dopt measures of conciliation, and to meet the colonists
half way. A precedent for calling in for aid, 'night be

found in the instance of ,he American war, when the
fleets of France and Sp ,in swept the British Channel. He
begged to call the attention of the House to the instruc-
tions given by the House of Assembly of Jamaica to the
delegates sent over to this country. The first duty of
these delegates (according to the document) was to inform
Government truly of the real state of the slave population.
It expressly stated that the object was not to hold out any
threat of resistance, should emancipation be ultimately
deemed necessary. Should the effect of emancipation be
the total destruction of the property of the planters, the
delegates were instructed to demand full compensation;
but if, on the other hand, emancipation meant a gradual
diminution of slave labour, then the delegates were to re-
quire compensation equivalent to the amount of labour of
which the planters were deprived. The delegates were
also instructed to protest, in the most decided manner,
against any interposition by Parliament in the internal
affairs of the colonies, and the document added, in con-
clusion, that the House of Assembly of Jamaica was
always ready, on the invitation of the Crown, to discuss
the measure of emancipation on the pt inciple of com-
pensation ; but the planters would not relinquish
their rights or abandon their property, excepting
upon compulsory violence. [The Hon. Baronet
lead the conclusion of this sentence in so low
a voice, that we cannot pretend to give the exact words.]
He next adverted to the indirect interests involsod
in this question, and in the prosperity of the West Indies,
and which hail been so fully noticed at the late meeting at
the Loudon Tavern. lie contended, that to all these ine-
vitable ruin would ensue from the plan of Ministers, it it
were carried into eflaq. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Stanley) had complained of the increase in the produce of
sugar in proportion to the diminution of the population ;
hut be ought not to forget the great mart at present
afforded by the West Indies for the manufactures of this
country; the export of manufactures was usually in pro-
portion to the impart of sugar ; and if the import of sugar
were lessened, the necessary consequence must be the les-
sening of the export of manufactures. If, too, the supply
were reduced, the consumer at home would unavoi iably be
driven to the Brazils, or other situations where sugar
would still he raised by means of slave labour. One point
was now quite clear frcm a paper published this morning
that the abolitionists were satisfied with the Ministerial
project. (The Hon. Baronet in this part of his speech, as
in some others, was very imperfectly heard.) He ex-
pressed his regret that the Right Hon. Gentleman, in
his speech introducing the plan, from misinformation,
had erred in the statement of matters of fact of im.
portance. Three of these misstatements he (Sir R
Vyvyan) had already noticed ; and one of them was,
that ny the law of Jamaica the evidence of a slave
could not be token but with the permission of the master
or minister. On this point he (Sir R. Vyvyan)
might be mistaken ; but if he bad misheard the
Right llonotirabe Gentleman others had misheard
hiin also. Whatever might be the case in Antigua,
such was not the fact in Jamaica. The Right Honour
able Gentleman had also asserted, that a slave might
receive the infliction of 39 lashes only for looking his
master insolently in the face. Such, indeed, was the evi-
dence of Mr. Wildman, but it had been contradicte.l by no
less than four witnesses, and all who were acquain•ed wit,•
the colonies knew that the law was not as Mr. Wi'dinao
had laid it down. A third error by the Right Hon. Gen.
tleman was contained in the assertion, that if en proof 01
,xtrenie cruelty a slave ere manumitted, the value of the•
slave was to be paid to the master. The contrary was tb,
rutb, for the master was subjected to a flue of 1001. an
no the payment of an annuity. This contra.iction shove,
~ow unfairly prejudice had heen excited against the We
India body. The Hon. Baronet then read a passage trot:
Mr. Stanley's speech on tbs former uight, which related

,specially to the opposition p i4evctiogly offered to the
measures of Government for the amelioration of the con-

dition of the slave population--a point which the Right
Hon. Gentleman proved, by reference to Mr. Canning'.l
re oluCons of 1823, which led t. Lord Bathurst's cir-
.

cu ar—to the Order of Council of 18124—te th proceed-
ings in P.aliament of 1826—t0 Sir George Murray's
circulars of 1828, and finally to the Order of Council of
1830. All these effects the Right Hon. Gentleman had

contended had been rendered nugatory by the counter

pr oceedines of the planters, and he had concluded that
part if his subject by saying, that " the whole thing on
the face of it was a mockery of the wishes and feelings of

the mother country." This was a sweeping charg against
a gr-at body of individuals, and laneua!e of that kind was
not likely to conciliate the proprietors of the West Ind 'a
islands.

%Ir. STANLEY said slnitthittz acroas the table in ex
planation, we suppose, of what he bad advanced, but it
was quite inaudible.

Sir R. VYVYAN proceeded to refute the assertion of
C.e Right Hon. Gentleman upon several points ; and first,
as to the admissibility of slave evidence. He maintained
•hat it might be received in cases not adverted to by the
Right lion. Gentleman; and if the law of Jamaica, or of
ny other colony required that the testimony of two slaves
should concur, in order to warrant a conviction, it wag no
more than was thought necessary in this free country.
No man could he found guilty in England of particular
crimes, and perjury was one of them, without the evi-
dence of two witnesses. In allowing the testimony of
laves to be taken against the master or overseer, the colo-
nist in some cases bad even gone beyond what bad been
equired of thGeenmtletmoy the
Mother
anspo
spoke
of
contracts Country.
ofmarriage, When tbeßight Hon.
did he mean to say that the colonists had done nothing in
aid of the exertions of the pious men who were labouring
in the West Indies to produce a reform in the moral and
religious habits of the negroee ? That, however, was merely
a matter of internal regulation, which ought to be left to the
lucal Legislatures. As to the separation of slaves at.d

the prevention of the dismemberment of the families of
degroes, it was not fair to draw general conclusions front
particular instances. When it was said that magistrates
n the West Indies were interested parties in questions re-
lat;l4, to slaves, he begged the House to look at home, and
to remember, that in disputes between masters and ser.

vants, magistrates,who were themsrlves masters, were

often the judges. Partiality might as fairly be imputed to
the one as to the other ; and he (Sir R. Vvvyan) did not

believe that a tnagis rate in the Veit Indieel because he

.•
was also a proprietor of slaves, was less likely to do justice
to a slave than a magistrate of this country—because he
was also a master of servants, to do justice to a servant.
He wished to hear from anybody what general proof there
was to the contrary. Isolated casts afforded no satisfactory
evidence, although it might be convenient to use them for
the purpose of harrowing and exciting the feelings
(Hear, hear.) After referring to some official documents,
the exact purport of which it was difficult to col.
lect, from the tone of voice in which the Honour-
able Baronet occasionally spoke, he proceeded to con-
tend that those documents proved, in a manner perfectly
. .

incontrovertible, that the condition of the slaves in our
West India colonies was infinitely better than the pea-
santry, not to siy in Ireland, but than were the weavers
in Scotland ; and that many of the working classes in
various pats of Europe, were by no means so favourably
circumstanced. He felt satisfied that no person connected
with our West Indies, or possessing the slightest know-
ledge of our colonial possessions there, would for a mo-
ment deny, that in the present state of the information
possessed by the Legislature, they were proceeding very
much in the dark. It was in vain to attempt any denial
of that ; and then he would gladly learn with what in-
.._

tention did his Majesty's Government refuse to receive
evidence respecting the state of our West India colonies
upon oath—it was only before the Committee of the
House of Lards, that evidence upon oath could be obtained ;
then, upon what grounds was it that there happened
.o be a refusal to admit testimony accompanied by that
solemn sanction ? He would say that, practically, Govern-
ment had refused that Committee. There bad been for a
considerable time negotiations going forward between the
West Indic body and the Government, and in consequence
of the representations of the latter, the former agreed to
postpone the Committee; and now the result was, that
the present measure came before Parliament without any-
thing like that full acquaintance with the facts bearing
upon the question, which they ought to posses b f.re
legislating upon a subject of such magnitude and import-
ance. To take but a single instance.—there was Lord Bel-
more, the last Governor or Jamaica; he might be examined,
and his testimony, no doubt, wined prove of the greatest
value ; and yet the West India body were deprived of the
ujiportunity of having his Lordship examined before a
Committee of the other House. Not only were they le.
gislating in the dark, but they were legislating under in-
fluence that ought nut to be exerted under any circum-
s ante', and. least of all, under circumstances like the
present. There had that morning a paper been put into
his hands, which he had no doubt had also been put into
the hands of other Hon. Members; it was a declaration
of the Anti-Slavery Society, in which they pledged
themselves to the support of Government in the event of
the influence of the crown being thrown in to support
their views in reference to the question of West India
Slavery. The West India body, too, had reason to com-
plain that they were taken by surprise, and called upon
on a sudden to act, without a moment allowed them in
hich to communicate with the Colonial Legislatures.
He would s-k the House, were they prepared to say that
they would give the Colonial Legislatures no time fir de i-
oeration in the colonies? In saying this, he thought it right
to call the arention of the House to this, that emancipa-
tion in the abstract had been a principle admitted, and that
even the West India body had gone Int ther, and admitted
that the time had arrived when emancipation should no

longer be delayed. It ri,oi right to have it distinctly un-
!erstood that both those principl s were admitted by the
Colonial Legislatures.—( Hear.) It had been contended that
Christianity and slavery were incompatible ; that was
certainly a mistake, fur nothing could he more evident
than that Christianity and slavery were compatible. From
everything that he could Imp, the plan of his Majesty's
Government would not only excite the strongest feeling of
hostility in the West India body, but it would not satisfy
the Anti-Slavery Society. Though they had nominally
given in their adherence, there were fusdatnen al prin-
ciples in the plan of the Government to which they could
never agree—at least consistently with their avowed prin-
ciples. If he knew anything of them, be would say, that
they never could be brought to believe that a man was
otherwise than a slave so long as be was compelled to give
to another three-parts of his labour, when lose than the
remaining part would be suffieient in such a climate and
with such a soil as the negro might have in the West
Indies. He had already called the attention of the House
to the species of dictation used towards Members of that
House—a recent instance of it had come under his ob-
servation. A letter had that morning been receiyed by a
Member of that House—he would nut mention names,
neither would he say from what constituency it pro-
ceeded—but it called upon the Hon. Member to whom
it was addressed, to wait upon a Noble Lord oppo-
site (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), to urge
upon him the necessity of remodelling the Btil introduced
into the Hou-e of Commons, so a. to effect the entire aid
immediate emancipation of the negroes ; and if his Ma-
jesty's Ministers would not agree to that which alone
coo d prove satisfactory to the friends of hum nity, they
entreated him to attend in his place and support any mea-
sures having those objects in view.—(Hear, hear ) Ile
cool i not proceed further without again referring to the
neglect of those means which were within their reach of
obtaining information from evidence on oath. Neither
could he avoid calling their attention to that which must
be considered the forerunner of their late, if they yielded
then to the dictation of the Anti-slavery Suciety—be al-
luded to St. Domingo, where emancipation was effected
by violence—where property sad file were alike disre.
garthd, and where an Agrarian law was, iu the first in-,
-tance, established. The Hun. Baronet then alluded to
the great interests that were at stake—box the proposed
measure would affect property, and to what a rad extent
commerce and shipping would be affected. He would
conclude by expressing an anxious desire, that when the
Gentlemen of that House, and when Minister, themselves,
reflected on the subject—when they hearkened to the
voice of the numerous merchants and individuals, all unani-
mous in their opinion, they would make haste to recon-
sider their plan. He would move no rt solution, he would
not oppose the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
nut he could not refrain from expressing his sentuneuts
upon the subject.
Mr. STANLEY hoped the Hon. Baronet would not
think him wanting in courtesy, it, fur the prevent, he
svithbeld the objections he had to uasku to the Hoe,
Baronet's sentiments. He would move no amendment,
but, as before, move that the House go into C.EngPi"re.,_
In Committee was the most proper place to discuss all "."
j,ctions that might be made to the proposed plan. It was
on that account that he would not comment un the Hun.
ronei's speech before the House was in Coannittt.e.
e SPEAKER then left the cnair, and the House
v. nt into Committee.
that altlinuzli he
The first iesolution having been Put,
ar a
occasion,n 1,
Pu
address the Can.
Mr. .7sTANLE.Y..agraricoturnt
ad the honour,
',late at considerable length, he felt obliged to trespass
gainfirwing time on their ettentioa, Me 11S;Wtiee he wart