The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-23 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY

ready done. He felt bound to enter his protest against the
Bill, and against the raising up of so futile a barrier,
which, on both sides of the water, and especially
in Ireland, would be productive of most injurious conse-
quences.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE complimented the
Noble Duke on the able and temperate speech which he
had just addressed to their Lordships. The Noble Duke
and the Noble Earl who led the opposition to this Bill
(the Earl of Aberdeen) had contended that this Act of the
Pope might have been amply and sufficiently met by
a Parliamentary protest. But the Noble Earl and the Noble
Duke must have a very strange notion of the Church of
Rome if they thought that a mere Parliamentary protest
would have been sufficient to deter the Pope from proceed-
ing in such encroachments.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Earl and the Noble Duke had said that the Government by
its conduct, had given encouragement to the Pope to take the
course complained of. What the Government had done was
to treat the Ronan Catholics with every possible liberality,
and to resist nothing that was not a direct attack upon their
own Established Church, and on their own privileges. Their '
Lordships knew that attempts had been made all over the
continent of Europe to increase the power and authority of
the Church of Rome. Let them look to the Spanish Penin-
sula—( Hear)—and if they wanted to know what the Pope
was aiming at, let them read the treaty that had been en-
tered into between the Court of Naples and the Court of
Rome and the Court of Spain.—(Hear, hear.) It was said
that the action of the Court of Rome was altogether spi-
ritual, and yet what did the Pope do in Ireland ? He set
aside the parties who were recommended for primate, and
appointed an individual of his own choice, and they saw
the result, had been that attacks were male upon institutions
which had previously met with the support of the people.
The question for the Government, looking at all the circum-
stances, was whether they would accept the Bill as amended
by the Committee, injuriously altered as it was in his
opinion, in some respects, or throw it out altogether.
Rather than adopt the latter alternative, he was prepared to
take the Bill as it was. The Noble Earl (Wicklow), who
had spoken so strongly against the Bill as one which would
prevent the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion in Ire-
land, had made a statement which could not be borne out by
the fact. This Bill would not have that effeet, for it was es-
sentially the same as the Act of 1829, and the Roman Ca-
tholics accepted that Act as a boon.— (Heir, hear.) The
Noble Duke had said that Archbishop Mersey had been re-
cognised by the Government as Archbishop of Dublin. He
distinctly denied that this was the case. The rescript ap-
pointing him Archbishop of Dublin had never been acknow-
ledged by the Government. It was a fact that the Pope and
the Roman Catholic Church had, in 1797, proposed to give
the Government a veto on the appointment of vicars aposto-
lic, and that even so late as 1810, Mr. Ponsonby read
in the House of Commons an authoritative statement
from Dr. Milner on the part of the Roman Catholics,
in reply to a statement of Mr. Ponsonby's. In that letter
it was distinctly stated that the Roman Catholic prelates of
this country were prepared to give the Government a direct
negative in the appointment of bishops to the ancient sees of
Ireland—namely, that they:would not nominate parties until
the Government was satisfied that they were, as the Pope
himself had phrased it, good and loyal subjects. He did not
mean for one moment to impugn the loyalty and good faith ,
of the Roman Catholics in this country. Nothing of the
kind. And it was well known to those who had intercourse
with the Roman Catholics of this country that they neither
were parties to the aggression or approved of the conduct
of the Pope.—(Hear.) He believed that the toleration and
the conciliation which we had shown towards the Roman
Catholics should have led to a very different result ; and,
further, that the requirements of their religion needed not
the establishment of this new hierarchy. The Noble Duke said
he did not justify the manner of its appointment, but the
matter was not so aggressive as it had been call :td. Now, in
such a case as this, the manner was everything; it was the
essence of the whole question, and therefore it was that the
Government had felt themselves bound to repel and
resist the aggression.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl last
night, who moved the rejection of the Bill, had compared
the present times with those of the Popish plot. Why was
there any delusion about the circumstances in which they
were placed? Was it not a fact that a sew hierarchy had
been created by the Pope, in a manner which all admitted
to be insulting ?—( Hear, hear.) That was a reality, the
feelings it had excited were also a reality. Under these
circumstances, he called upon their Lordships to adopt the
measure, the necessity for which must be regretted, but
could not be denied.
Lord MONTEAGLE confessed he had not heard any in-
formation respecting the present Act which was at all satis-
factory to his mind. He thought this Ras a very extraor-
dinary course with respect to a Bill which all would admit
was a penal Bill, and which ought to be looked at with ad-
ditional jealousy, when they remembered that it was a penal
Bill based upon religious distinctions. Heasked any member
of the Government, he asked any of the Noble Lords who
had supported it, or who intended to Rapport it, to tell
them what would be its practical effect? He would
ask his Noble and Learned Friend on tie woolsack, what
would be the practical operation of this Sill on the ancient
Roman Catholic sees in Ireland, as wet as its practical
operation upon the intruders into the pretended new sees in
England ?—(Hear, hear.) He did not desy the manner of
the act was offensive; but he said, by tics Bill we did not
attack the Pope, but other people. It was, in fact, the
greatest collection of Irish blunders ever sten, with the added
injustice of inflicting penalties upon innocent parties for the
acts of others. It was, therefore, a combieasien of blunders
and injustice such as, perhaps, was never Wore known. He I
admitted that the introduction of a new lierarchy, and the
formation of new sees by a foreign power, vas indefensible by
the law of nations; he quite agreed with the Noble Lord, in
saying that the act itself could not be justited.—(Hear.) He
would admit that this was a case whch demanded the
attention of Parliament, but it did not fellow that he was
bound to accept the measure that was now before them.
It might as well be said, that standing is need of medical
treatment we should submit to the first nedicine that the
most arrant quack might offer to him. Now, this measure,
he conceived not to stand on much better ground than that
of mere quackery. It was a Bill that yould be a dead
letter in its operation ; and of all steps to take in these
religious matters, the most imprudent Niers those in which
unnecessary irritation was produced. they were obliged
to irritate, let them irritate for a lawful iurpose ; but a mea-
sure that irritated for mischief, without i'ritating for a useful
purpose, was decidedly bad. It was a matter of notoriety, not
only to Ministers, but to every Membe' of either House of
Parliament, that these Catholic orders wire extending in the
country, and not any of the Cabinets tha, had been in power
since 1829 had ever dreamt of taking a ,ingle step for their
suppression. But in this year, 1851, tiers was a gigantic
reversion of the old French maxim, On jrvient toujours a see
premiers amours: for now men were retuning to their old ani-
mosities. The clause in the Emancipatioi Act against titles
had a very curious origin, because it wasfounded upon the
objections against the Bill which were extracted from the
petitions presentedsby its opponents. Re would affirm, that
if they kept an Act of Parliament hangieg over the heads
of members of :he Catholic Church oe such a subject,
they were not only doing a great injustice, but they were
virtually repealing the Catholic Relief 81l If it were the intention that this law whenP asseHear, hear.)
d should not
be acted upon, he would say that it was a most miserable
juggle to attempt in such a manner to satisfy the people—
( Hear, hear)—and they were giving to the Pope and to Car-
dinal Wiseman the greatest possible tritsaPb• He wished
now to call the attention of the Noble and Learned Lord on
the woolsack to the practice which prevailil in the courts of
law in Ireland on the subject of these o.oB.—(Hear.) In
1847 a case occurred in which Dr. MeHalswas a party, and
the Doctor was described in the proceedigs as Archbishop
of Tuam, and the description was recognied by one of the
most Protestant judges in Ireland, the Maser of the Rolls.—
( Hear.) The same thing occurred with reference to Dr.
Cantwell, who was recognised as Bishop of Meath. He could
also state to the Honse that •
of Lord Chancellor Sualenr
in a report
under the notice witch was brought
Crony was described in that report as belts; Catholic Arch-
bishop of Armagh and Primate of Ireland--',Hear)—and the
report passed without any remarks on tbatPoint by Sir Ed-
ward Sugden.--(Hear.) After some flusher observations
the Noble Lord said, if the Catholics of Ireland had to
struggle for freedom, he hoped they wood not be left to
struggle alone.—( Hear, hear.) lie calhd on their Lord-
ships for the sake of their own dignity, fo' the sake of the
dignity of the state, to pause before they give their consent
to such a Bill. But if they did not believethat the remedy
proposed by this Bill was a good one, or that it would not be
acted upon, they were bound to reject the miserable Bill
altogether. The Noble Lord concluded by elating his deter- ,
mination to vote against the Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR and the Bislop Of OXFORD
rose at the same time, and there were loud cries for each of
them, but the Right Rev. Prelate gave way,and
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he understood from the
Noble Lord, that some other Bill, or some ether course than
the present, would have been more effective' and he had
waited with some anxiety to hear the Node Lord describe
what, in his opinion, would have been a better Bill or a better
course, but he was disappointed. He rale could not un-
derstand the Noble Lord. The Governmen presented the
Bill to the House ; they recommended their Lordships to
pass it, not because they approved of it in all respects, or
because they would not like a Bill in some respects different
from this, but still at the same time, looking to all the cis'.
cumstances, they were satisfied with it, and osilling to aceept
itsj responsibility. Was there anything itconsistent in
that ?—(Hear, hear.) What then was the ground of the
imputations cast on the Government by the Noble Lord? The
Government were prepared to take the resronsibility ofs a
measure which they thought was demanded be the interßts
of the country. They had been told much of the difficulty
which would arise in putting this Bill in force Ireland, and
the difficulty which the religious question had always caused
in that country. He admitted it. It had been the over-
throw of many Governments, but it must be grappled with.
The Noble Lord did not agree with the Noble Earl in think-
ing this a trifling matter which might be passed over with
indifference. But what did he suggest instead cf a Govern-
ment measure? He had condemned that in very strong
tern*, and said the Noble Lord who framed it seemed more
fond of his own puny offspring than the wise suggestions of
others. But let him recall to their attention the circumstances
which preceded the framing of this Bill. What was the feel-
ing manifested by the country when the question was first
raised? Was it not one of great excitement, and would that
excitement not have been still greater but for the conviction
that Parliament and the Government would deal with it. For
twenty years we had been earnest in our endeavours to relax
all the restrictions on our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects,
because we believed them to be loyal. Front time to time
these relaxations were made, and there was at last a strong
impressiont:hat there was a disposition to favour of the Roman
Catholics at the expense of the institutions of the country.
The Noble Lord at the moment of that aggression issued a
strong letter in which he showed the people of England that
while he was devotedly attached to the great Principle of re-
ligious liberty, he was at the same time as determined to
support the institutions and the independence of the country.
That letter had the effect of producing public confidence, and
allaying all suspicion on the part of the people as to the in-
tentions of the Government. He believed that to its publica-
tion they owed the moderate nature of the Bill itself, be-
cause the people, though dissatisfied with the measure, as
not corning up to their expectations, were yet satisfied be-
cause they had confidence in his Noble Friend, --(Hear,
hear.) We had a long struggle in this country, which
though apparently a religious struggle, was in reality as
much a political one. The penal laws were adopted from
time to time, more on account of the political and temporal
tendencies of the Romish system, than its religious doctrines.
But after a time confidence in our:Roman Catholic fellow-
subjects began to be restored, and the penal disabilities
vanished and disappeared. From our own sense of justice,
snore than any demand on their part, we made these rela-
tions and did them justice. What had occurred since? A
gradual and stealthy advance of the Romish Church. Was
it unnatural, then, the people of this country should look
with suspicion on the character and motives of the heads
of that Church—(Hear, hear)—not on the Roman Ca-
tholic laity in England.— (Hear, hear.) They were content
with equality with their fellow-subjects.—
(Hear, hear.)
But it was, the heads of that Church who were ever aiming
at power, and that not of a spiritual nature, but temporal
power and dominion. The rescript of the Pope constituting
the new hierarchy was but one of many steps in the same
direction, all of them tending to establish a foreign power in
this realm. The object evidently was also first to establish
the new hieararchy in England ; because if once established
there, the game power would havo len claimed for Irelaiid