The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-11 00:00:00

tions of the noble lord, and which ho believed had not gone
too far. He confessed That the statistics of the noble lord,
which vouched the amuracy of those quoted by the right
hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) last session; startled him,
and compelled him mentally to ex, laity, " Something
must at length be done ;" for those statistics disclosed
the frightful extent of the moral degradation of the
pe.iple of this country. They showed that the land was
totally uncultivated—not that the soil itsolf was sterile,
but that it needed good moral husbandry, from which,
if timely applied, they might gather a rich, plenteous,
and virtuous harvest. (Cheers.) Was this state of things
truly characteristic of the age ? Let them fix their eyes
steadily upon these facts, and ask how it had come to pass
that they should have existed so long, and what were the
circumstances which were controlling and pressing ui,on
them ? Let them look upon the children whom these re-
solutions regarded, and consider them in the benevolent
spirit in which they had been framed. Let them look upon
every individual child, who was an object of these resolu-

same mixture of independence and obedience to antb4)rity
which made the greatness and independence of the Ame-
rican and British names. If the education of the A aneii.
can people had becoroe more and more secular, it li :id be.
come so only because the American people had grmlivally
separated the two elpra?nts of religious and secular edn-
c •tion. --Fie did not think it possible for any man wInl) ap-
preciated the character of the A merican people to poiitt out
40) people amongst whom religious convictions were :more
profound, or who acted more upon religious principle.
(Hear.) But yet he did not mean to say that be thynght
the American system was applicable to this coon try of
ours. What was education but the bringing up, uo.ider
thousand influences, of the individual child? It was impos-
sible for them to say that by any system they couloi pro-
duce a fixed and definite result ; they could only anproxi-
mat) to what they expected, and there would all rays be
many counteracting causes. It was, therefore, that he
thought there was a profound philosophical tru th in the
resolutions of his noble friend the member for London

tions, as being one of those immortal spirits of which the and he believed his noble friend was perfectly right in on-
State was but an aggregate, and whom the State had been deavouring to develop, in the fair and liberal manner ex_
so guilty in neglecting; and then let it sink deep in the pressed in his resolutions, the education of the country.
national conscience, so as to compel the Legislature, from He could not see that these resolutions rondo it imperative
a sense of personal as well as national responsibility, to to impose any given rate at all upon the country-. It -was
feel itself bound to establish an act by which it should it- only proposed that, under certain circumstances, if Om) in-
self become the guardians of those children. But when habitants of any particular district were themselves so jog.
the nation seemed at length to be awakened to something pressed that it was notoriously deficient in mown' ens/seli-
like a sense of its duties in this respect, it was to be told, gious knowle Igo, that they should be permitted to impose
it seemed, that it could not stir a step in the direction of a rate upon themselves. It was surprising the monserrona
reclaiming this moral waste, because if it did it would be deductions that had been made that evening from, that
ruining and beating down the safeguards of civil and reli- simple fact. He should even think that the scheme pro.
gious liberty. He asked the house to look at this grand pounded by the inhabitants of Manchester and Sanford
argument, the stratum of so muck unreal opposition—of ought to have been accepted. (Hear, hear.) He believed
much unsubstantial though showy opposition—to these it would have been an experiment coming out of the, very
resolutions. Let the house consider into what a strange heart of a noble people, and he thought that, in pra dimes
paradox it resolved itself. Our strength was the source of many difficulties would have disappeared. The noblo lord
our weakness. We were so powerful that we were power- (Lord R. Cecil) had mentioned a school in which there is -ere
less. But was it to go forth to the nations of the world a number of children of different religious denoneinat ions,
that England, so great, could not educate its own children, and they were allowed to be taken away during the -time
and that where power was the greatest the least could be of religious instruction ;he (Mr. Milnes) would as 6. the
done? If this were so, it ought not to ha so. Let them not noble lord if he was aware that where that experimen i had
in the 19th century—in these critical and remarkable times been tried on a very large scale, the effect bad been that,
—stultify themselves by converting that noble thing where the religions services were short and reasonab I e as
berty into licence, by submitting to an ignominious in the prayers of the service of the Church of Englant L, the
tyranny that arrogated to itself the name of freedom. number of children withdrawn were infinitesimally s
There could be no language more bitter, no rebuke more He would instance one case, that of the large sch so! at
severe and grave, addressed to the Legislature than the Birmingham, on going over which the Bishop of ran-
very reasons which had been assigned for its abdi. cheater said to him, "Oh ! I wish those gentlemen -who
eating its authority in this matter, since that talk so much about religious differences could see how
authority was to be seen in constant action, limit- these difficulties disappear in practice." He (Mr. Mitees),
ing and directing the exorcise of the rights of the therefore, wished they would be a little more mod,hit in
subject in whatever course it pleased. The most con- their assumptions, and a little more doubtful as to their
spicuous feature of modern legislation was its bold statistics. If the power of imposing rates should be at any
interference session after session, and Parliament after Par- thee abused, there was a power in public opinion to cl teek
liament, with those rights which were conceived to be pe- that abuse; Parliament might at any time interfere. , He
culiarly transcendent—such as the right of personal liberty, should vote for the resolutions of his noble friend, as he.
the right of private property, on which were imposed from believed them to be honest, just, and moderate. (Hear.)
time to time restrictions so severe that they would not be Sir J. GRAHAM said-he believed he was sitting at the,
tolerated in a low state of civilisation. What, he would feet of Gamaliel, and he was willing to take lessons or,
ask, was the characteristic of the Encumbered Estates Act? humility, whether enforced by precept or example. ( &
(Hear.) Since then there had been a dozen or twenty sta-
tutes which interfered with the liberty of the subject, and laugh.) He would be moderate in his conclusions fro in
yet when a resolution was aimed at the extirpation of this any statistics he might use, and he had inquired carefu'ey
moral evil, this cancerous disease, they were roughly tole ,nto their accuracy; and, before he sat down, it would •-be
he might say—with reference tea statement which he sup- his duty to comment on the experience of the hon. meirler
posed had been put into the hands of other members as (Mr. Milnes) as to the benefits resulting from short reli-
well as into his own—they were acrimoniously told that
the noble lord was interfering with the liberty of the sub- gious instructions, and to show that it was neither co 'lsis.
jeet. Now, the speech in which the noble lord brought tent with the voluntary teaching of religious sects,, nor
forward his resolutions required that he should be encoun- permanently-conducive to the religions or political interests
tered with the utmost respect. (Cheers.) The noble lord of the country. In the first place he must premise that
did not appear to him, after all the consideration he could
this could not possibly be regarded as a party qftestion.
give the matter, to contemplate any violation or the true
liberty of the subject. (Hear.) He would not presume (Hear.) Now that peace was happily restored to the
upon the indulgence which the house usually awarded tr- people of this country this was-the question in which
a new member, to say many things that he intended to ex- they took a deeper interest than any other, and one on
press —(cheeze;—but if the house would bear with him, he which a ruistake on the part of that house would be most
wished to say a word or two upon a point upon which
f
scaut justice had been done to the noble lord. They must fatal to the interests of the people; and he thought they
look at the resolutions of the noble lord as a whole, and as should best meet the wishes of their constituents in die.
complementary to that which had been done by the friends cussing it without any patty considerations and with
of voluntary education. The object of the resolutions wee moderation and calmness. (Hear.) He was glad her 31a-
expressed in the first resolution, that, seeing the want e'
jesty s Government had not committed. itself to any definite
education, it behoved the house to extend, revise, and con-
solidate the minutes of the Privy Council nu Education line as to those resolutions. He hoped they would ponder
The noble lord had dealt with the question in a compre- well and deliberate seriously before they gave to those rase-
hensive spirit, and it would be for the house to consider lotions their official support. He could not agree with the
what should be the extent and mode of action of the ma- hon. member for Midhnrst (Mr. Warren) in everything
chinery. Where it was deficient let them add to it— which he had said, especially to the voluntary efforts of
where its action was imperfect let them correct it, but let
not the noble lord bo found fault with when he said the Dissenters, and he was surprised at the conclusion at
that, although he gave every credit to the voluntary which that hon. gentleman had arrived, that in supporting
system, there were great patches of ground which that sys- chose resolutions he should not be interfering with those
tern could not reach, and when be called upon the Govern- voluntary efforts. (Hear, hear.) He also used an expres-
ment to exercise its authorityin reclaiming and cu tivating sion to show the extent to which ho was prepared to go in
this moral waste. There was nothing more cheering to the support of the resolution of the noble lord for compelling
great body of the public which had constituted then its :,he children to come in anti be educated, and he said, also,
representatives and the focus of its will and aotiou than te that it was a moral compulsion. Now, the great objection
see manifested in the discussion of this great question that which he (Sir J. Graham) took to the resolution was, that
holy reverence for religion, without which education was a it proposed, not a compulsion of moral snesiou, but a legal
mockery, a delusion, and a snare. It was necessary to re- one—(hear)—both on the employers of labour and on the
spect that liberty which the subject ought not to cease to employed. Again, ho said, quoting, perhapanot correctly,
enjoy, but let the house dosomething, let the State remern- -1 a words of the hon. gentleman, how disgraceful it was
her its duties, and that those duties included the education that England, with her free institutions, could not educate
of the people on religious principles. The greatest man who ter people. No whe (Sir J. Graham) was prepared to show
had sat in that house for centuries, Edmund Burke, had :hat England, in consequence of having free inetitations,
shown that the Church and the State in a Christian cow- .vas educating her people progressively; and his great objec-
munity were one and the same thing, being only contiguous ;ion to those resolut ens was that they were contrary to the
parts of one and the same whole. Religion was thus seen to orinciples of liberty, and would most materiallyimpede the
be within the province of the civil magistrate. The State course of those free institutions under which our people were
bad duties which its subjects bad a right to expect the per- tagging so educated. The hon. and learned gentleman justified
formance of, and where the State saw that no education he exceptive legislation contemplated in the resolutions on
existed, and that none would exist, it was not only it, the precedent wich Parliament had set in passing the act
right but its bounden duty to interfere. With reference to for the sale of encumbered estates iu Ireland, but he alto-
the machinery for carrying the bill into effect, he regarded gether denied the application of that precetent, and he
it with deep anxiety. He did not wish to add to the oh- denied that the people of England were arrived at that state
stacks by which the noble lord was surrounded and °mbar- ,f things in reference to education which, prevailing in
/wised, but lie asked him to reconsider that portion of hi,- Ireland in regard to landed property, justified the passing
resolutions which referred to tee alienation of the pre- of the act referred to. The hon. and learned gentleman,
petty of charities. (Cheers.) So deeply did he respect the however, said that he (Sir J. Graham) agreed with him
spirit in which the noble lord had brought forward his race that these resolutions were to be taken as a whole. Now,
lotions—so much did he appreciate the comprehensive eau- speaking of them as a whole, it was his opinion that, in-
tion with which the noble lord had dealt with the subject, stead of these resolutions producing that gradual develop•
that he would not suggest a difficulty unnecessarily. But meut of progressiveeducation, so much desired by the hon.
he asked the noble lord to reconsider that portion of his ,nember for Pontefract, ho lookcel upon them as a most
resolutions, and see if he could not dexise some remedy headlong step in advance. He spoke with respect—with un-
which was less calculated to arouse feelings of the intensity reigned respect—of his noble friend the member for Lon-
of which the house had a sample the otter night. He was ion. He could not forget—history would remember what
very grateful to the house for having listened to him thme had been his successful labours to improve legislation, and
far. (Cheers.) After the powerful and argumentative to promote civil and religious liberty. He remembered
speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford. that it was to the noble lord they owed the repeal of the
shire (Mr. Henley), he rose with great hesitation from the Teat and Corporation Act. He remembered all he had done
benches behind that right hon. gentleman. But he thought for the emancipation of the Roman Catholics. He also re-
he shouid ill discharge his duty as an independent mem- tnembered the labours of his noble friend in the introduc-
ber if he did not act upon his honest and conscientious Lien of the pon. law into England and afterwards into Ire-
conviction. (Hear.) Ho trusted that a question so im- land. He remembered also the constant support he had
portant would not be determine,' by an array of ugh, given to the introduction of national education into Ire-
words. (Hear.) Let the noble lord go steadily on, anti land—a benefit not less than the greatest which the Legis-
he hoped he would realise that picturesque and feeling else lature had eon. erred on that county. But, above all, he
queues on which the noble lord had adverted to the diffi- sad a satisfaction in seeing his noble friend yesterday, al-
culties that surrounded this question. He trusted the ,hough stripped of all official power, do battle in defence
noble lord would not steer his bark against any of those sf the great principle that no difference of creed should
sunken rocks which had wrecked so many noble vessels, operate as au exclusion from the fullest an-I fairest enjoy-
but that he would calmly stand by the helm, that he tent of those rights which were the property of every chi-
would set his sails and catch the favourable and cur- zen while liberty remained in this happy land. These were
rent of public opinion. (Cheers.) Whatever hon. mem- some of the services which his noble friend had rendered
hers might think of the voluntary system, he trusted that to the cause of liberty, and for them he felt deeply grate-
they would not be deterred by the word compulsory, but ful to hits, and he could never forget them, but yet he
would recognise in the noble lord's resolutions a principle must say ;hat he differed from some of the opinions of his
not of snpercessiou of the voluntary principle, bet a sup- uoble friend on this subject, and he would preface what
!element to its deficiencies. They might then use the len- tie had to say on this question with one observation. They
gunge of Lord Coke—the master of lawyers, as he was were called on to discuss education in England, and that
c die and say—" Blessed is he that lays the fist stone of the question of education in England Was to l u kept quite
this building ; more blessed is ho that carries it on towards distinct from education in Scstland or in Ireland, bee muse,
completion ; but most blessed is he that finishes it unhappily, in England they were divided into sects almost
to the honour of God and the glory of His kingdom." innumerable, while in Seetla.nel nine-tenths of the popula-
(Loud cheers.) tion were united in owe creed, and that one circumstance
Mr. E WART seed that the resoluti.ms of the noble lord gave facilities for legislating ou e.lucation which they e ere
altogether in want of iu England. Then, with respect to
did nut propose to de ml with charitable enslo Atments, but
with educational institutions left by our ancestors for the Ireland, the circumstances were also altogether different.
great, the over-
benefit of posterity. The nelele lord did not wish to divert
'rho Roman Catho:ies constitutes! the
these endowments from their legitimate object, but to three of the pro-
whohning. majority of the population in
restore them to their original purposes. Great good had winces, while in the northern province they approached to
been effected by the Commissioners of Charitable Endow-
an equality in numbers with the Presbyterians. But
throughout the four provinces the members of the Esta-
ments. Parliament hat! last session missed an act to en- throughout
Church seemed to be in a minority. It would be
.ge their p twors, as that act had been attended by the
happiest results, since the commissioners had investigated wrong for him to carry this point farther ; but he bogged
it to be understood that in arguing this question they were
3,000 cases, in which applications for investie'ation had
arguing the question of educetieu Eegland alone. In
been made by the trustees. It bad been said that our
engineers and labourers in the manufacturing districts
the absence of all party con ideration on this question he
' received a kind of passive education in the discharge of trusted he would be allowed to give his opinion with all
their daily duties, which rendered to a great extent any the freedom he would use if sitting upon a committee up
other kind of education unnecessary. But one of the stairs, or if he were st the ceuncil table elsewhere. He, in
the fist e objected to the form of the present precut 1- worst symptoms of modern society was the tendency of the
division of labour and the use of machinery to render man ing as unusual in Parliament, and inexpedient tole e brought
himself a machine, unless this tendency were counteracted into use. The course which they were invited to take was
by education. Ho thought the system of paying for odu exactly the reverse of that in the case of a bill. It was a
cation out of the resources of the State had arrived at a Proceeding which began with details and ended with the
point when they must soon take a very decided course assertion of principles, and the jumble of both was such as
with regard to it. He had always been a warm advocate to produce the greatest confusion, and involved great dan-
for establishing an educational rate, and he firmly believed ger. Now, in the case of a bill, they began with principles,
to that consummation they must come at last. The sys- and when the house sanctioned those principles by the
tem of paying for education out of the Exchequer was so second reading, they then went into the details in commit-
complicated that its own officers could not understand it. tee. He farther objected that son'th of those resolutions.
It reminded him of the linos of Milton— were superfluous, and being superfluous, they were calcu
" With centric and eccentric scribbled o'er-
lated to excite suspicion, so that he could not see why they
should be asked to conform in a manner by which they
Cycle and epicycle, orb in orb."
would use all the advantage of past usage. Now, he
He was in favour of uniting to the plan of an educational wished to say that he was far from negativing thenecessity
rate the present system of centralisation, so as to combine for legislation bearing on education. lie was of opinion
perfect freedom of action with perfect responsibility to Par- with the hon. member for Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley)
liameut by means of a Minister of Education. He con- that the question of education, as blaring on prison
curred with the noble lord in many of his resolutions. He discipline, and on the juvenile criminal population, was
believed that every discussion advanced the object they one which
had in view, and he would conclude by impressing on the came most properly within the scope of legis-
lation, and he thought the time was come when in the
house the words of Milton—" The nation that neglects the case of children who were under proper parental con-
education of the people deserves to bo eternally benighted." trol the greatest power should be given for reformatory
Lord R. CECIL thought that a local rate on behalf of purposes ; neither was ho prepared to say that the Cheri-
education would be neither just nor practicable. If local table Commissioners might not produce a bill with a just,
rating were instituted it would inevitably dry up all the and equitable regardof
ctheariPtraobPleeettyrus,
tasniln weahsiecshwenhiegrbet.
een4gPePolif"htains, or other causes, titre trusts had be.
voluntary principle of the country. It might bo thought vary
change
unreasonable that this should be so, but assuredly they from
must make up their minds for that result. It had been said Dome inapplicable ; but all that must be done with the
that education was a national duty, but if that were so, it greatest caution. As his noble friend was a memberof that
was a duty which ought to be discharged by the whole of commission, he should gladly receive any measure for that
the nation. But who were those upon whom the rate purpose which Wight he recommended as the deliberate
wool t fall? Why, only upon about one-half of the popula- opinion of that commission. He himself had had the honour
tion of the country. The funded property cf persons would in former times of recommending legislative interference
escape from the tax. Mining property would be excused with the education of paupers, by which the children were
from contributing its fair share, as would also shipping,
removed from the ordinary workhouses and provided, in a
which principally supported many central school, with the means of obtaining a better educe-
enormous wealth of London would also bo excused from tion than they could get in them. With the permission of
seaport towns.
contributing to an educational rate. more than one-half the house he would now briefly review the resolutions, and
of the property of the country would,
as Proposed by the do so as summarily as he could. The first was that, in the
resolutions, be excused from paying agate. e considered opinion of this house, it was expedient to extend, revise,
that, if the whole country would be benefited by national and consolidate the minutes of the Privy Council on Eder-
education, the whole of the nation ought to pay the rate. cation. He could not deny that it was expedient to revise
With regard to the proposition of the right hon.letronetthe and consolidate these minutes, seeing they now occupied
member for Droitwich, that he would have a distinctive 20 volumes • but the important word in the resolution
form of religion, but excuse those children whose parents was the word' "extend." We had now a Minister of Edn-
might object to it, he had a great objection. To allow each cation, who was a confidential servant of the Crown, and if
set of ratepayers to select that form of religion which each that Minister was of opinion that any extension was necee-
eferred would, he believed, result in absolute infidelity. nary, it would be his duty to lay before the house the Name.
The people would naturally suppose that the Legislature sure by which he proposed to effect that object, and to take
did not believe more in oee form than another, and that the sense of the house on it in the usual and constitutional
would lead to infidelity. In a report recently presented to manner, when they would have to suggest such alterations
the house, it was stated that in a school in Wales the and amendments as they thought proper; but by this reso-
inspector found 5 members of the Church of England, 21 lotion p-awer mfould be given to What might be called a Se-
Baptists, 37 Independents, 4 Methodists, 1 Reformer, 3 cond Alinsterof Education to extend any syetemhethought
Unitarians, /3 Alortnotlites, and 13 children of no denomi- peeper, without the exercise of the controlling power of the
nation at all. (Laughter.) The house would observe that Legislature. On the next iesolutionhe vvouldrneeatandadsasiwgnoredd
in this school there were children the religion of whose to wheedled fallenfromtheright hon.gentleman the member
parouts were diametrically opposed to each other. He be- ten Oxfordshire, but he had not yet beard any so
believed it was an unjust way, that of rating, of raising for the appointment of SO inspectors. If, however, it were
funds, and it would lead to a compulsory education of the t necessary to increase the number of inspectors, the Council
people, and, above all, that it led to a tampering with their of Education had the potw,eartoo opoiy meanspsrolpseit,atidfortodociaolgl
so.on -!
religious belief, and ended with rendering the children in- the house in the ordinary y t
capable of any religious feeling at all. (Hear, hear.) The same observations applied to the third resolution with
Mr. M, MILNES hoped they might be able to approach respect to the sub-inspectors of the schools of Wesleyans,
this question in a spirit of a little more humility and a aed of other sects. With respect to the fourth resoluteon,
little less confidence as to the character of the people which gave power to the Committee of Council to form
amongst whom they lived. He did not think that, in school districts, it was a complete abolition of the pare-
looking into futurity, they could say what would be the chial system, and introduced a new boundary, distinct from
effect of this or that application of the noble lord's measure, either that of the parish cr cf the union. The fifth reso-
or of any other measure. He owned his experience brought lotion was unnecessary, as it was at present the duty of
him to the conclusion that induced him to believe they the sub-inspectors to make such reports. The sixth he
must go on experimentally and without relevance to foreign should pars by, as it was that which had given rise to a
countries. Foreign countries differed from us not only in t considerable part of this debate, and how it found its way
their domestic manners, but also iu their political realm- into the resolutions was to him a wonder. The seventh
brances and their political history. They must look, there- t stated that it was expedient that in any school district
fore, to their great sister State, America ; for there only , where the means of education from various sources should
exiated the same foundation of national character-irthat ka f9ttn4 d9acioa, watt docland tc,kti 60 by the P010441)45
•