The Sun.
London, England, 1802-12-16 00:00:00

By THOMAS CAMPBELL.

. „
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IMPERML PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF PEERS.

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 15.

Sons Accounts were presented from the Ordnance Office.
ThesOrder of the Day being read, for going into
a Committee on the Malt Tax Bill, •
Earl SPENCER rose and observed, .that on' a
former stage 'Of this Bill, he had taken the liberty
to offer his sentiments on one or two important
points conneEed with the measure, and he had to'
return his thanks to the House for the very liberal.
indulgence, with which they heard him on That tic-
, Casion.: In the preTent instance,: 'he rose in obe-
dience to the paramount calls of duty, and to
offer- his opinions more in detail, upon these and
Othe't points, which he deemed of the most ~mom-
entous importance to the Country. But first he
should have to advert to what hadiallen from a
Noble and Learned Lord on the former/ Debates,.
who seemed,.by what he then said, to have entirely
• misapprehended his meaning. This misconception
may probably be owing
.to his own inaccuracy of
expression at the time ; but he would now repeat
his opinion, that with respea:to the Establishments,
be had no objedion, as far as their extent was to be
considered, that is, as far as they exceeded Fortner
Establishments. ; Such vas not' his ground of oh-
jeation, and for obvious reasons, as the opinions ite
entertained of the -late Treaty of Peace were well
known to be unfavourable- to that Measure, on
the ground of its probable . want Of permanence,'
and its insecurity. With 'Tyra to the Measure more
immediately before the House, and the several
important *points connealed with it, he had three
distini grounds of . objection. First, as to the-
manner in which the present Supplies were proposed,.
which was different from any former precedent. Se-
condly, as applicable to the proposed Naval and Mi-
litary Establishments ; and thirdly, as to the pro-
bable.use which may be made of the Forces so voted.
With resped to the first head of objeCtion, as he
had'troubled the House 'rather at*length'therecin in
the former debate, heshould not trespass much on
their Lordships' attention. After all that had been
urged an that point, not only by hithself but, more
especially by those with whom he had the honour-to
aft ; he had no hopes of being, able to induce Noble
Lords oppasiteto him to alter their opinions on that
part of the subjea ; however, after • the besCatten-
don he was able to give to the point, and after the
maturest reconsideration, he remained himself of the
same opinion with respea to it. He was convinced
of its importance, with respea to the regtilaiity and
integrity of the proceedings of Parliament, that un-
less he should hear arguments advanced in the course
of this night's Debate to induce him to change his
opinion, he should ',deem it his duty to record it on
the Journals of. the 'House. With regard to .his
second head of objealion, the nature and extent of
the establishments voted, the-Noble Earl observed
somewhat in detail. The amount of the, respealive
forces were he said, for the Land Service i 30,000
men, and for the Naval, fl,ooo. Parliament was
without adequate or regular information as to
the causes, the necessity, &c. of having establish-
ments to that extent, they moat therefore con-
sider them as well as they could, and decide up-"
on information from the best quarter they could get
it. With respea'to the Land Forces, it hadlbeen,
he conceived, voted -on grounds which he knew not
well how to describe ; but he conceived it to be done
on the idea of the strictest defensive system ; than
situation of the Country was such as to re-
quire a Land Force to that amount, either with
a reference to home defence, or for services abroad.
—ln regard to this, when he considered the
considerable augmentation to the numbers he
had mentioned, by the Militia Force, and the
Volunteers, he saw no reason to obje& to the
Establishment on the, ground of a defensive system.
With respea to the constitution and arrangement of
this Force, he highly approved of it ; was well
direated, and appointed, and the Plan did the highest
honour to the illustrious Personage at the head of
His Majesty's Land Forces. In regard, to the'Na-
val Establishment, he regreted that-he could not say
as much. He was sorry that the Noble Lord at the
head of that Department was absent, but duty called
Upon him to state his opinion upon a point of such
importance notwithstanding. He by no means
thought the Naval adequate to the Land Establish-
ment. He was aware it had been said, that at a
short notice, sixty additional sail of the line could
be prepared and brought into service. He was glad
to hear 'this, but at the same time was not quite so
well convinced of its practicability, and particularly
with respea to 'the manning of such a FOtce. It
. was asserted that this could be effeaeci in so short a
space as a month ; but he knew the nature of
manning the Navy too well to entertain such
an opinion. That measure was dependent, on such
a number of extensive circumstances, some of which
.it was entirely out of the power of Gdvernment
to control, that he was decided as to its lin-
praaicability 'within that space. With respea
to the third head of the objeiuion, the use which
would be made by Ministers of these powers, he had
first to observe, that what fell from the Noble Lord
on the Woolsack the other night, as to the discre-
tionary powers vested in Ministers with respea to
keeping it, instead of removing, increased his objec-
tions in a considerable degree. He had always un-
derstood, that whenever a specific force was voted,
there was a Constitutional and implied engagement on
the part of the Crown to keep up the stipulated force,
and hold it in readiness to at when occasion required
—ln this instance, therefore, former precedents
were departed from;: and the line of condua j
adopted by Ministers with regard to the Establish-
ments,, strengthened his objedions to the present
arrangement. Three times in a former Session did
they come .to Parliament with different Estimates of
Forces. In June last, particularly, -70,000 men
were voted, of which it appeared that 20,000 were_
notiong after disbanded. Sueh a pradice might
obtain in the present instance, and consequently
no securitycould be had in the discretion of Mi.
nisters. The uniform, tenor of the Ministers, at.,
least since the Peace, made him entertain apprehen-
sions of that sort. He had no hoitility towards any,
and fox some of them he entertained the highest re.

cpeae:btit considerations of duty superseded every
other. The present 'crisis was such, as that on the con..
duft'of its government, must depend either the ruin
or the salvation of the Country ;, andin considering
this part of the suisieet, it wa'S in vain to keep out
of sight the gigantic power of France. Her ex-
tended empire, uniform system pf aggression, and.
her late-=accessions of territory. • The conduct of
that Power, with respect to one-part of the Treaty
of Peace, he was of opinion included a breach of
stipulation. He meant that relative to the House
of Orange, whose real indemnity it was not im-
probable would be ultimately furnished by this Cou-
ntry. - He then adverted to. the accession of territory
made by the French out of Europe, particularly the
region of Louisiana, and it was understood to be in
agitation on the part of Holland, to surrender Co,
chin to the French. Government. This, he con-
ceived to be a most important consideration with
respect to our Indian empire. Bur, he .had no he-
sitation to say, that Ministers themselves did not
know whit system they were aEting'upon, or what'
line of condul it 'would be preferable to pursue..-
Of this their conduct respeeting Malta and the. Cape
furnished striking instances,:--their orders and coun-
.ter orders, 'respeding the retention or surrender of
these settlenientse and their ConduEt with respea to
the conquered Colonies in the West Indies. He how-
ever begged it to be undetstood, that.he disclaimed
the idte, of wishing to•urge Ministers to rush into
War. The line of policy he endeavoured to tecom-
intend, that bf firmness and vigour, was the surest
means of asserting the Honour of the Country; and
preserving the Blessings of Peace ; but when he.
considered the weak, impolitic and wavering con- .
duel of Ministers, he could entertain little hopes
:in these points of view. On the contrary, had they
abed on the truly wise and: energetic system laid
down by their predecessorsomd followed it up with
vigour and effeEti he would have supported them
with much more spirit and alacrity- than he now
felt it necessary to oppose them. The resources of
the Nation he was well convinced were perfOly
adeqUate to the situation in which it was unfor-
tunately placed 'by the conditEt of Ministers
but then . they must be directed by other hands,
and administered by men of superior talents, spirit,
. and. abilities, in order to bring them fully into
action ; to extricate her from her present difficulties,
and to render het once more great and glorious.
• A gun may in every respc he capable of perform,
ing service, but it must bedireeted by skilful hands I.
to, render it efficacious. A. boat or ship.may be in
perfect order, but an able Steersman and. expert
Mariners were necessary to
.render it of service.
Upon the whole, and under all the circumstances of
the case, he felt it his duty at present to•objea to
their Lordships proceeding to the Order of the
Day.
The Earl ofSUFFOLkobserved, he differed most
essentially from many. of the positions adduced by the
'Noble Earl who had just sat down. He had talked
much 'of confidence, 'and of the services and superior
talents. of the late. Administration, by Whom alone,
that Noble Earl, seemed to think, the CoUntry could
be saved.' In'his opinion', much greater confidence
had been reposed by Parliament in the late, than in
the present Administration, ; and it was to their mis-
conduet, and their misuse of that confidence, that
the present splendid and excessive power of Fran.ce
was to be attributed. He could not avoid remarking,
that the former illinisters, uniformly set their faces
against inquiry,' and were always calling for confi-
dence. In considering the prominent parts of Elicit
conduct, as applicable to the subjeEt before • the
House, he was led, into some detailed. observations
on particular operations of the late War.. ,He re-
ferred to some occurrences in. the expedition to the
West Indies, under Lords St. Vincent and Grey,
and more especially to the enterprizes against St.
Domingo, in which, he said, .from 15 to' 'iceooo
lives were sacrificed, and, from ts,to zo millions of
'money expended.—He likewise censured the plan of,
the Expedition to Holland, but at the same time,
he seemed to exempt the Royal Personage invested
with the Chief Command on that occasion from any
share • of blame.---The ' Expeditions to Egypt he
considered as still more culpable, and dwelt parti-
-cularly on the affair of El-Arisch, in which the Bri-
tish Officers, he contended, had acted in obedience
to orders ; and he wished he had an opportunity of
examining Sir Sidney Sniith at the Bar, on those
points. When. he considered all those things, he
hardly thought the Country could be saved by men,
who, while in power, had so cOnduEled themselves.
He censured the idea that the Country could be
saved by one man, particularly the person alluded
to; but he knew those who were capable of direel:. •
ing the Affairs of the Country with honour and ad-
vantage :---however, it was his opinion, that the
present Ministers should be fairly tried ; and that
they had hitherto done nothing. which should induce
the,Honse to withdraw its confidence from them. •
The LORD CHANCELLOR quitted the Wool.
sack, and observed, that he should not thus early
have obtruded himself on the attention of their-Lord',
ships, had not something 'fallen in the Debate, per-
sonally applying to himself; and he was also impelled
to come-forward, by the urgent and important nature
of the question befofe the House. The question re-
gularly before their Lordships was, whether they
would read the order for going into a Committee
to consider of a Bill .of. Supply, which not only went
to Zed the Military`sEstablishments, but even the
Civil Existence 'of the Country : it was .1. Bill,
which in that House had.heen regularly, voted with-
out opposition, from yeas to year,' and which they
would bear in mind, not only regarded .the Naval and
Militaiy, but the Civil Establishments qf the Cou-
ntry. In the course of what had kdlen from the Noble
Earl who spoke last, some observations had'-keen
made which he felt himself imperiously Called upon to
answer. -They regarded that part of the conduct of
the late Administration, which related to the mea.
sures adopted by them, against those who were endea,
vouring, by means of Sedition and Treason, to de.:
stroy the Government, and to subvert the Consti-
tution of the Country. The guilt of 'those mea-
sures,' if guilty they are, lay as much on his
shoulders as on those of any Member of the
late Administration ; and he would agree
_that
their successors may well be deemed weak and
void of energy, did they hesitate a momht, in
case of necessity, to tread in the steps of their

predecessors in that particular, and tempOearuy, •,0
supersede the liberty of the cotultry, in order per-
manently to secure it ; and should they hesitate uli'j
on such salutary and saving measures, he w"
no longer form a part of that Administration ;
but the reason they were not resorted to, `vas
•
simply because they were not necessary. )de
would not follow the Noble-Lords in those po!nts
which were irrelevant to the stibjea in discusslo°l
nor, particularly, the last Noble Speaker, through`P,
ft
the whole condu of the late Ministry.— Wit
regard to them, however,, he was aware, that "Qr
set of men- could more fully. maintain the bowie.
and preserve the happiness of the Country in greater
degree than they did ; and he supported them tlir",
the whole of their Administration with all his hear"(
and soul. He-would put it to the heart and feelings °l',
the Noble Earl-who took the lead in this Deb3te',l •
the teodencyof his arguments did not amount to this'
that they, oughts to refuse their assent to the. Bill °f
Supply before them ; not because the Establishinents
to be provided for by it were unnecessary or 0:z-es;
sive—pot because the situation of the Country did 0`)
obviously, require, them—huot because those, in svli"sec
hands their application was intrusted, could n°
make a wise use of them ? He had had the lion°.,,
of fighting side by side with that great Minister s(jr
wi
often alluded to '
.in recent Debates, and he t'al .
ri't
ask, would that great person refuse to ass,e't,
to such a Bill as the present, at a moment
circumstances of
the of France rendered it
cessary that the country should be, not ceasin'
with a drawn sword, but in a state Of readiness
recur vigorously to defensive measures, should °h.
T.
condua of the former render it necessary ? Suel.
' would not be the condua of that great man.--An
with respea to the insinuations of charges against
His Majesty's present Ministers, the languag.
of the person lie alluded to on former occasion'
was emphaticalry, that those who urged Addresses
,for the removal of Ministers, should boldly stag
the specific causes upon which the proceeding should
be founded. Were contrary principles acto
upon, the circulation, the vital blood of the Conn'
try would be stopped. If Ministers were to beret"
moved, let it be on distind and express grounds : and
here his'Lordship having occasion to recur to the con'
duet and principles of the, great Minister before 3l'
lulled to, spoke of his character in strains of the warm
est eulogium, as one whom the bounty of Pr°vi,a
i
dence, with a reference to his transcendant talents aPo
virtue, caused not his equal to be born in the courScr.
of centuries. He' knew' that' great and virtuni"
Man to be grossly abused and libelled, while tile °b;
jea of his measures. was alone the preserva"°
of genuine freedom :--to that.end, he well kne°::
the .thoughts, of that -person were anxiousli
direded. Never-yet did any man more richly (if;
serve the applause of the virtuous and the goo"
•
.Ikecurring then to the subjeds in discussion, the
Noble and Learned Lord observed, that in arguil
the question, those in opposition uniformly occuoi'
Elie, " vantage ground ;" they
,had referred to' the
consideration of .Ai,iances, and their effeas, with'
out seeming to consider how far that Administran
of 'which thos,e Noble Lords so worthily forme
a part, was implicated its those measures.-01
'many were signed by the late Noble Secret,,,ttarY74
State, and were necessarily dissolved
.evere-.11"
his continuance .in office I The' present -Minist7,o
had been repeatedly censured for reducing the inila
of the Country, but it was not considered that sast
redudion was necessary, and often otie of the 01°0,
desirable 'effeas of Peace.—lt was unnecessary' ri°,
to, enter into a vindication of that important Peit
sure; he wauldordy, fervently,piay to God, that's
may not, as. the Noble Lords had augured, Ot:
hopes and conviaions were otherwise) turn
prejudicial.. to the Country ; but, at any, l9iot
the present vote was not to be decided by' 14rst
measure. ' With respea to the Noble Earl's 'of
objeaion, as to the manner in which the pres'v
Supply was proposed, it was then unnecessary the
him to answer it. In regard to his second point,f c,,
details of the Establishments, it was some satin
tion to him,
,that the Noble Earl did not objecifesa ,
them on the score of extent. He did not pr°..b,
himself tb' be_ adequately conversant• in those suir
jeas—but he could not refrain from observing agai'',
that the Noble Lords took the vantage grounu's
in not considering these Establishments with of
reference to the. Naval and Military faculties not
France ; and in this point of view he doubted en,
they would be found well apportioned and corms is
surate to the circumstances and necessities of
dsluP
Country : and in arguing these points his Lot on,
displayed much ability and information; arld,che
eluded with a reservation, that it could not fain'Y
said, that the day may not arrive in'which these fortyv
may -be consistently and safely. reiluced. But 'ot
the question to be decided on the grounds urged 10,1
the Noble Earl, it' were 'impossible the Fundse or
Forces of the Country could be turned to a wiscol
salutary use. If such Were the Noble Earl's ti,er
sentiments,lie would put it to.his justice, wile
his Motion should be notolitekted against—?ibe
VP')
of. Supply, but for the removal of Ministers •
yrcat
such principles he had always aded with the
man-before alluded to, with the Noble Lords r 4
selves, and with the ancestor of a Noble Lord 1d
the Bench with (IN'e believe the Noble
Learned Lord alluded to Lord KE N YON,
no
the
r
present.) With respect to the Peace, a felt
important circumstances conneded with it, nefflof
like an Englishman all over ; :there were
,e 0
points conneded with that, . but more c 5 t
ly with the present subject, which be sil°ll,%
think himself very unworthy of the situati‘'n
had the honour to hold, if he were weak enous,
to enter into a discussion .of the'm at Pre,:y'rifl'
—He spoke his sentiments on this IteadYd dor
the feelings of a .man• who 'humbly lmle lejel)
those who went before should not have to "could
them with such a derelidion of duty ; tb!Xes., and
aa upon the same great
.and leading princw
they would strive to preserve theiseacc, aind
"deavour to save the, country. ianationg
sh Earl SPENCER spoke shortly in exP eappre"
and observed that the Noble Lord hinl In'l
sor
' • 01e
hended the object of his argot-tient, ' wllen of ,
posed that it was to suspend thetwgress eo
Bill until the present AdminiStration •" "hat effe
—if , he should haVe said any eying to
it was not his intention to oave said eai vl,hat had
•
The Earl of CARLISLE observed)
I/1