The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-03 00:00:00

to alter, but without perfect determination to do so
—(Hear, hear)—thus affording a proof to Ministers
that if they were only bold and determined, they might
carry any other useful measures. Although he wool I
not divide the House on the present occasion, he pro
tested against this being considered a conclusive measure
—it was a mere instalment of the real national
debt of church reform, and he hoped next session a much
more comprehensive measure would pass the House.
Mr. HUME said, if the Hon. Gentleman considered
that the people of Ireland would not be satisfied with
this measure, he (Mr. Hume) would take on himself
to say that the people of England would not be satisfied
with it. He considered it a complete abortio❑ of church
reform—a mere farce—a mockery—a plaything, got up
between two parties, for the purpose of imposing
on the people by making them believe they
were doing something, while in reality they were doing
nothing. He considered church property in Ireland as
public property ; and although he would allow that the
purposes of the church should first be served, yet
every shilling which was not required in that way
ought to he brought into the Exchequer, and applied
as the public interests and wants required. He did not
think this Bill would-give satisfaction any more than the
Bill of last session for the commutation of tithes (lid.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had lost the tithes of Ireland
entirely by the course that had been adopted. He did
not wonder that Ireland had refused to pay tithes, hut
he dirt wonder that, seeing they had to advance 500,0001.,
on account of Irish tithes, they were so quiescent under the
abuse. The Bill as it now stood would satisfy no party ;
the Government bad diluted the draught until it was al-
most spoiled, and yet it was not sufficiently diluted to go
down elsewhere. It would have been better that it bad
been thrown out elsewhere, than thus diluted, for now
the people of England cared little about it. Out of defe-
rence to the House of Lords, and to prevent collision, the
Government proposed to adopt the Lords' amendments;
but the Bill would be found to disappoint the hopes of the
people of England.
Lord EBRINGTON, although he had been prepared
to go further with the measure, could not coincide with
the Ron. Member for Middlesex. He did not, lie admitted,
think that either the form or the substance of the amend
ments which had been made could lead to a good opinion
of the legislative wisdom of the producers; but the re-
duction of ten Bishops, the reform in the deaconries, and,
Above all, the abolition of the cess, were certainly matters
of no small moment in the way of reform.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not think that any of the alterations the Bill
had undergone either i❑ this House or in the other had
affected those practical points which his Hon. Friend
had, upon its introduction into that House, professed
to support. The measure, in its present shape, went fully
to carry into effect those practical points, and he consi-
dered that his Noble Friend had redeemed his pledge to
the public and the House. Though he did not coosidrr
the improvements amendments, yet he did not regard
them as so destructive of any principle or practical point
as that the House ought to think the Bill virtually lost.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY said that if he were one of those
who considered the revenues of the Church exclusively
applicable to the Church, he would be one of the first to
agree that the amendments were improvements, because
t':ose amendments silenced an itnpression partially enter-
tained in that House, and strongly cherished out of
it, that the surplus revenues of the Church not
strict'y required for its support, were applicable to pur-
poses of general utility.—(Hear, hear.) That was the
principle upon which his Majesty's Government had in
the first instance brought the Bill in ; and though
it was kept mere as a lurking principle, more
than he considered consistent with legislative dealings,
vet those who observed it felt comfort in it ; but when
Government consented to throw out the 147th chose,
then wh itever was regarded as really valuable
in the Bill, was considered as destroyed.—(Hear.)
So far as could he expressed as to the spirit and candour of
those amendments, there was great honesty and integrity
:n them, because they proceeded on the principle, in his
opinion a fallacious one, that all the property of the church
was applicable to the support of that church. If he could
interpret the sentiments of a Noble Lord in the other
;louse, and of some of the Members of this House,
they would contend for this doctrine, that in cases
where there was only one church, one parson, and
one clerk, and no Protestant parishioner, all the in-
come of the church belonged to the church. There were
instances in the Court of Chancery in which large funds
had accumulated, to the amount of hundreds of thousands,
but those funds had been declared applicable solely to the
original intention of the testators. He knew an instance of
100/. being left for the support of the clergyman at Morden
College, Blackheath, five pounds having then been con-
sidered a sufficient income for the clergy. That five
pounds a-year had now been swelled by the increased
value of the land purchased with the lOW. to SOU a-
year, and it was contended that 5001. a year
should go to the clergyman. So it was contended
with regard to church property; but if the Bill was to
be passed into a law, as at present, in what way were the
people to look forward to the ecclesiastical law, because it
was contended that the revenue of the Church in Ireland
was to be applied to the support of the Protestant Church,
although seven out of eight of the people were adverse to it ?
What bad England to expect if this was to be the expense
of the Irish Church ? He hoped, at any rate, it would form
a precedent for Dissenters in England petitioning to be
relieved from the payment of all cess fur the support of
churches which trey did nut frequent. That, indeed,
was the only comfort he saw in the Bill.
Mr. FINN considered the Bill a complete abortion
as a measure of refom.

The amendments were then read a second time and
geed to.

[lt is expected the Bill will receive the Royal Assent on
Monday.]
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY BILL.

On the motion of Mr. STANLEY, the further conside-
ration of the report on the Abolition of Slavery Bill was
deferred until Monday next.
On the motion of Mr. STANLEY, the Nouse then re-
solved itself into Committee, for the purpise of consider-
ing the money clauses of the Bill.
After some observations perfectly inaudible in the
gallery .
Lord ALTHORP moved that the Lords of the Trea-
sury be empwered t raise the sum of 20,000,0001. on
Long Annuities, the interest to be charged on the Conso-
lidated Fund.
The CHAIRMAN then put the question.

Mr. HERIUES proposed that the Noble Lord should be
empowered to contract for the loan from time to time ac-
cording to circumstances. He thought it better that Mi-
nisters should take a vote of credit. He begged to remind
the Noble Lord that he had lately presented to the House
a statement of the Consolidated Fund, and he had stated
that be had disposed of all the surplus. If this were cor-
rect, he did not see how the Consolidated Fund could bear
the additional charge of one million, the interest upon the
total sum to be raised. _ . .

Mr. FINN thought the West Indians were justifil ble in
demanding that the money should be raised at once, and
that they should not be exposed to the mercy of the ca-
pricious votes of any future Parliament.
Mr. H UME contended that the money had been granted
by Parliament only on certain conditions, and it was time
to raise the money when those conditions had been fulfilled.
If the conditions should not be complied with by the Local
Legislatures of the West India Islands, it would be worse
than useless to raise the money. The Nob!e Lord's mo-
tion, in his opinion, ought to be postponed to the next
session.

Lord ALTHORP did not conceive that any future
Parliament would violate an agreement made by a
previous House of Commons; and yet to leave the
point undecided would not be quite so good a secu-
rity as it the money were at once raised, and all
qu stions about it were concluded. The surplus
cf the Consolidated Fund was able to bear the pro-
posed charge upon it, though on a balance of the general
receipts and expendOure of the country there was only a
surplus of about 500,0001.
Mr. HERRIES thought that the House in acceding to
the motion would abrogate one of its most important
functions.

Mr. S. RICE supported the motion.
Sir S. WHALLEY objected to the interest being
charged on the Consoltda!ed Fund, and made a part of the
permanent debt.

- Mr. FRYER could not stomach the grant of twenty
millions. If he wished to show what constituted a ca.e
of triumph over the West India proprietors it was this
Bill, for he was convinced that they would never get
what they expected. Did they know any thing of the
Deccan priz„. 'wiry ? Did the House know the delays
which had taken place in the distribution of that money ?
But the Parliament of to-morrow x% as not bound by the
Parliament of today, and therefore the Deccan prize
money hail not been paid. In conclusion he thought the
Government here bound to state specifically how they
intended to raise this money.
Mr. HUME having protested against the grant, and
the sense of the House being against biro, he should be
sorry to see the House violate the pledge.
The resolution was then carried, and ordered to be
reported on Monday nest.
BANK CHARTER BILL.
Lord ALTHORP having moved the order of the day
or the second reading of the Bank Charter Bill,