The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-05 00:00:00

THE SUN,

gion on the Gentlemen opposite. The Catholics of this
country could not accept the letter or credit drawn by the
Right Hon. Baronet on the Noble Lord in favour of 1
their religious liberty, when they considered how he had
acted with regard to this Bill. Oa every public occasion
he would proclaim to the Catholics of Ireland that even
for religious liberties they must rely on their own exer-
tions, and they must combine if they wished that all the
rights and privileges granted by the Act of 1829 should
not be frittered away.
Mr. LAWLESS protested against the language of
the Hon. and L-arned Member for Cork. There was a
clear understanding that a discussion should be taken
on the question that the Bill do pass; and the Noble
Lerd at the head of the Government ought not to have
allowed that question to be put and carried in the way
it had been. Even the Right Hon. Baronet had admitted
that such conduct was unhandsome.—(No, no.)
Sir J. GRAHAM wished to explain. He had dis-
tinctly stated that the Sp-aker had given every Mem-
ber the fullest opportunity of moving any amendment;
but he had never stated that the conduct of the Noble
Lord was unhandsome.
Mr. KEOGH said that he and his friends were unfor-
tunately unable to reach the House in time; and unfor-
tunately the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork had
not heard the question put. He rose on the present oc-
casion to ask his friends to assent to the proposal of
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon. The
services which the Right lion. Baronet had rendered at
all times to the cause of religious liberty demanded of
them, where religion was attacked, the completest
acknowledgment. After all these motiens against the
Bill, it was fortunate that the responsibility of it rested
with the Noble Lord at the bead of the. Government,
and that in no ordinary manner; for, though the Noble
Lord had altered the Bill, and had accepted propositions
on which he bad been defeated, still he said that the
Bill was his.—(Hear, hear.) On the Noble Lord rested
the responsibility. He believed it was a weight his
strength would not be able to bear.
Mr. AGLIONBY thought a very unfair attack had
been made on the Noble Lord, and that it was unwar-
rantable in any one to say that the Noble Lord had pre-
vented a discussion being taken on the third reading.
An Hoer. MEMBER—No one said so.
Mr. AGLIONBY continued—lf no one said so, his
observation fell to the ground, but his ears could not
deceive him. The Hon. Member had charged the
Noble Lord with preventing a discussion on the ques-
tion that the Bill do pass.--(Hear, hear.) The ques-
tion was deliberately put from the chair, and as if the
Speaker expected some one to rise he looked to that part
of the House where the Hon. Gentlemen who opposed
the Bill sat, and expressed as much surprise by his looks
as he (Mr. Aglionby) felt that no one rose.—(Hear.)
fu fact, the Speaker, in putting the question, had paused
twice before declaring that the ayes had it. He denied
that the resleonsibility of the Bill in its present shape.
rested with the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had op-
posed the obnoxious clause, and he (Mr. Aglionby) had
divieed on the same side. The public would be of opi-
nion that the Members who bad abstained from voting
against the obnoxious clause were as much responsible
for the clause as the Noble Lord.
Mr. MOORE said that, let their responsibility be what
it might, the responsibility of the Bill still rested with
the Prime Minister, for he had taken charge of it, con-
taining a provision diametrically opposed to his own de-
clarations, even in the present session. There were cer-
tain bulls of the Pope which were absolutely necessary for
the appointment of Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland,
and it would be impossible to prevent those bulls. That
clause of the Bill. however, rendered penal that !which
was admitted to be essential for the administration of the
Roman Catholic religion in Ireland. The Noble Lord
vas responsible for that clause, although he accused the
Irish Members of being responsiblo for it. However,
they should feel it to b their duty to violate that clause
as soon and as openly as possible in Ireland. The Noble
Lord might proceed as he was proceeding, but he ought
to recollect that he only held his positition as the hack
of the opposition, and not as the Prime Minister of
England.—(Hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP had been surprised to hear that
a considerable discussion had taken place on that stage
of the Bill. He had not expected it, and that would, he
hoped, account for his absence. He could not look upon
,he present measure as other than an act of great poli-
tical cowardice on the part of the Government. He
oelieved the Noble Lord did what he intended to do—
namely, deceive the Irish Members, and did very little
to maintain the religion of his country or the dignity of
the Throne.

e..s.
Lord J. RUSSELL said there were circumstances
which had ocurred within the last few days which might be
liable to misconstruction, of which they had a proof
within the last half hour. Yesterday, he believed it was
Lilo Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Univer-
sity of Oxtord had said, as there were several amend-
ments to be proposed, if they were adapted, it would be
desirable to take a debate on the question that the Bill
do pass. He (Lord J. Russell) had said he thought it
would be more convenient no douot to take the discus-
sion in the shape the Bill would ultimately assume. It
would be for the opponents of the Bill, of course, to de-
cide when they would take the discussion, whether on
the third reading or on the question that the Bill do pass.
Now, the Hon. Gentlemen thought proper to absent
themselves; and when the Speaker, immediately atter
the discussion, informed the House that the question
before it was that the Bill do pass, he confessed he was
surprised that no Honourable Member had risen to
commence the debate.—(Hear, hear.) The Honour-
able Gentleman the Member for Clonmel thought
proper to charge him with the fact that no debate had
taken place, although that Hon. Gentleman and his
friends were absent from the House. Surely, then, no
blame could rest upon him for that. The lion. Member
for Athlone, too, was angry, because a proposition which
he had suggested had not been adopted, and yet he had
triumphed over the defeat of the Government upon an
amendment which would have carried out that principle
of his own proposition. He did not think the clause pro-
posed by the Hon. and Learned Member was necessary
in the Bill. He did not consider that he lay under any
responsibility for the Hon. and Learned Member for
Abingdon's amendments. He did not want to shrink
prom any responsibility which he ought to bear; and that
which he should incur was this, tha; when these amend-
ments were carried, when he took charge of the Bill,
could he recommend the House to pass it in the
shape in which it then was? His responsibility con-
sisted in considering whether he could adopt- the
Bill as it was. Oa that question those who were in
the same situation with him, considering the intro-
euction of that Papal rescript last autumn to have been
a serious aggression on the independence of the Crown
and the rights of the nation, would feel with him that it
would be a serious misfortune defter attempting to-carry
a Bill which was to become a legislative net to assert the
supremacy of the Crown and the rights of the nation, they
had altoge, her deserted that ^ measures and left the ag-
gression unmet.—(Hear.) Having' tated his objections
to the amendments of the Hun. Member for Abingdon,
there was nothing in those amendments which would
justify him in the serious responsibility of throwing up
hat Bill altogether.—(Hear.) He did not believe there
was anything in that Bill which militated against the
principle of religious freedom. The Right Honourable
Baronet the Member for Ripon had give , him credit for
what he did not deserve; he said Mei. ght that Bill
would be safe in his hands evediftei it had passed, and
that religious freedom would not ire violated. Now
he had this question to consider with regard to
the passing of that Bill. He did not think it would
be, enough to say that the members of the present
Government, whether here or in Ireland, would not feel
inclined to put into operation any such measure as would
violate religious freedom. He thought they should be
bound not to move the passing of the Bill if they consi-
dered that any Government which might succeed them
would be able to use the power of the Bill to the viola-
tion of religious liberty. Their responsibility, he thought,
went as far as that.—(Hear.) He did not believe the
present Bill would be used for such a purpose. He did
not mean to say but that an Attorney-General might use
it as many other penal Acts of Parliament might be used
—to an oppressive point. But they had always confided
in that in which he had strong confidence from the first
time that he had heard of that Papal aggression, and
that was the fact, that this country had been so long in
the enjoyment of civil and religious liberty that he did not
believe it would be possible to interrupt that long usage, or
to violate that sanctity of conscience, or prevent public
worship, or the exercise of all the rights of religion, ac
cording to the opinions of those who practised them. They
did not live in a country where a person might be con-
signed to an unwholesome gaol for reading a portion of
the Holy Scriptures. Hon. Gentlemen who had charged
them with being the enemies of religious liberty should
remember that those were events of a country in which
the influence of the Roman Catholic religion prevailed.
But, after all, was there anything hostile to religious
freedom in the provision that bishops should use their
functions officiating in various parts of the country, but
preventing them from officiating under certain terri-
y a foreign power ? It occurred
to
infringement of religious liberty in
t o r
hi l
m titlesth e
r e conferred
111
n ls
that prohibition. The Roman Catholic was not the only
Christian Church in Europe, although that fact would be
heard as a novelty at Rome. This nation, too, by its
division from the Chnrch of Rome, became a great sepa-
rated body, maintaining its own national Church and
existence as a Christian nation. There were other
Protestant nations throughout Europe, and great
Christian co.nmunitiess Note, if the Church of Rome
could but acknowledge that fact—if she were to say
her bishops were not those of Westminster, on
Birmingham, or Dublin, but merely Roman Catholic
bishops officiating in certain districts, he did not
believe there would be any dispute whatsoever, even about.
a greater number than that proposed. The real aggress,
don was, however, that they pretended to recognise no,
Christians but themselves. Now, as long as they kept
up that pretence we should not allow to be erased from'
our statute-book certain provisions made on that sub-
ject. He knew, however, that if they were guided by;
the commonest sense and prudence, if they called their
bishops by none of these titles, they would give offence,
to no one, neither would they interfere with the prero- ,
gative of the Crown. These were his reasons for sup-,
posing that even with the amendments introduced there
was nothing like persecution in the Bill. While they,
permitted every person to practise his own religion,
they did not intend to permit any foreign power
to interfere with the sovereingty of this empire. He
trusted, in cenclusion, that, after the Bill had passed,
the Roman Catholics of this country would see they
would have a perfect right to the full exercise of
their own religion, but that they would have no right
, to override the powers of the Parliament of this coun-
try, or decide as they pleased with respect to its go
. vernment.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said he believed he stated the
sentiments of the Noble Lord as well as his own when
he expressed his unfeigned regret at the position in
which they were accidentally placed. So many diffe-
rences of opinion, even amongst legal gentlemen, existed
with respect to portions of that Bill, that it would be
most desirable to have a full review of all the arguments