The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-12 00:00:00

THE SUN,

correctness of his assertions, had said that he got his returns
from the Stamp-office. Hel (Mr. Napier) had inquired
at the Stamp-office, and found thati no such returns
could be made there—they came from the Prerogative-
office, and they contained only the returns of five bishops;
and the House would, perhaps, be a little surprised to learn
that the Hoo. Member had only been mistaken in the amount
of those returns by the trifling sum of 768,3801.—(Laughter.)
This was a specimen of the manner in which an attempt was
often made to mislead the House by a statement of figures.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then went on to assert
that ever since the passing of the Act of 1839, the Government
patronage had been conferred more on the Roman Catholic than
on the Protestant community, and cited his own profession as
an instance of the way in which the former had in numerous
instances been preferred to the loss of the latter.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh," and cheers.) Few had been the promotions, he
said, of the Protestant barristers, while he defied any one to
show a single instance in which a Roman Catholic of any
standing had been overlooked.—( Hear.) Equally so was it
the case with the Romish and Protestant ecclesiastics.
While we believed the Roman Catholic religion to be wholly
opposed to the Word of God, and at the same time placed
Roman Catholic bishops over the head of peers of the realm,
we gave rise to this suspicion—either that we were
not honest, and not earnest in our opposition to their
doctrines, or that we were politically afraid of them ;
and we induced the suspicion, particularly to the
Court of Rome, that we were not in a position to deal with
this aggression, and thus encouraged that Court to setup an
ecclesiastical domination over private liberty and social re-
lations, and everything else which Englishmen ought to
hold dear. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then referred
to a letter written by Lord Clarendon in 1848 to Archbishop
Murray, requesting him to be the medium of a communication
to the Pope. for the purpose of obtaining his consent
to the carrying out a system of education for the Ro-
man Catholics in Ireland, and condemned the impo-
licy of a proceeding which had the effect of placing Eng-
land in such a humiliating position before a foreign
state. It was now said that we had encouraged the Pone to
his act of aggression, that we had put Roman Catholic
bishops over peers of the realm, destroyed ten Protestant
dioceses in Ireland, and given a grant of 30,0001. of the
public money for the establishment and maintenance
of Maynooth College; and it was argued from these
premises that we either had no objection to a re-
ligion with which we so courted and coquetted, or else
were so afraid of it as to be compelled to succumb to the
Roman Catholics. If we were to assume the attitude of an
independent Government. and defend this aggression on the
integrity and honesty of the Constitution, let them, in God's
name, have some fit minister of their affairs, and not crouch at
the feet of the Pope, and ask him whether the Government of
this country should administer a system of education to the
people.—(Hear, hear.) Then came a rescript of the Pepe
to the different Archbishops of Ireland in October, 1848,
directing that sacerdotal meetings should henceforth
be held throughout the country in accordanee
with the rites of the Roman Catholic Church. Dr. Wise.
man stated that among other reasons which led him and
others to believe that no reasonable objection could exist to
the restitution of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, not only in
Ireland had Roman Catholic bishops been recognised, and
even duly honoured, but the same form of govern-
ment had been gradually extended to the greater
part of the colonies. The same view was taken by the
highest prelate of the Established Church, by the Bishop of
Oxford, and the Dean of Bristol ; but if the rational, calm-
minded, and religious people of England, and their
opinion was not to be mistaken, he believed
that the policy adopted in Ireland had encou-
raged the Roman Catholics to do otherwise than
what fair policy ought to have permitted them to have
done, we should take a straightforward course, and tell them
that we think fit to come back to the Liturgy and the
Bible, to the right government and to the constitution of
the country ; and, also, that we shall pursue a right
mode of proceeding for the future.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by stating that he
should give his cordial support to the measure.
Mr. KEOGH said, if he believed this Bill was inconsistent
with the principles of religious toleration, he thought such
an impression must at once be removed, when he saw his
Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for the Univer•
sity of Dublin, whose career had been one independent
course of advocacy of religious liberty, give it his cordial
support.—(Laughter.) That Christian forbearance which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman in and out of the House had
always shown to his Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen,
that peaceful attitude which he at all times presented, not
alone to the people of Ireland but to this House and
the country at large, when he was desirous of
granting religious liberty to the Roman Catholic people,
must have assured the mind of the greatest sceptic. The
course which he took years gone by, he (Mr. Keogh) sup-
posed was no justification at all of a man who thought it
his duty to pronounce strong opinions against the
acts of the Legislature. He had somewhere in the course
of his reading seen the name of Joseph Napier, who was
once the secretary of the Brunswick Club in Ireland—
(Laughter)—the avowed object of which, the merest tyro in
the political history of the age would recollect, was to set the
acts of the Legislature st defiance, provided they affected the
supposed rights of the Roman Catholic people.—(Hear.) Yet
he came down to the House—a wonderful concession on his
part, and a great exhibition of Christian resignation—and
stated that he had not altered his opinions. He had not
even condescended to say that he had changed one tittle
of his opinions with regard to the Roman Ca-
tholic Emancipation Act. Havs.ng done that and other
things which he should presently allude to, he thought
the Hon and Learned Gentleman should 'not have come
there to lecture Irish Members who felt it their duty to op-
pose the introduction of the Bill, and to read them a lesson
on independence.—(Hear, hear.) He had stated that that
protestation was an exclusion to preferment in Ireland,
but he found that a Roman Catholic could not be a
fellow or scholar at the University of Dublin; and also
that, out of twelve judges in Ireland, three only were Ro-
man Catholics. Out of five Masters in Chancery, four were
Protestants; ; out of thirty-three assistant-barristers, twenty-
fiveuweee Protestants ;:and, lastly, that the two judges of the
Bankruptcy Court were Protestants. If the list of stipen-
diary magistrates in Ireland were examined, it would also
be found. he believed, that the proportion against
Roman Catholics was three to one. (Hear, hear.)
All the law officers of the Crown were Protestants.—
( Hear, hear.) Was that equality? The fact was, that
Protestanism was a high qualification for office.—(Hear,
hear.) It had been said that the Catholics were
under their priests; he denied such a statement, and no one,
he could assure the House, would treat more curtly
any attempt to interfere with his private con-
cerns by Catholic priests than he would.—
(Cheers ) He would be the last man to interfere
with the prerogative of the Queen, and the first to assert her
undoubted right to the crown of England. The country might
thank God they had such a Queen on the throne—( Hear)—
one who was determined to support the Church of England.
There was no intention on the part of the Roman Catholics to
insult the country, and the Protestants were bound to believe
in their sincerity.—( Hear, hear.) The Pope had every
reason to believe that his conduct would not be unacceptable
to the Government of this country, and therefore he could not
be accused of intentionally offering an insult to this country.
So far from the Roman Catholics being ready to submit to
the decisions which had been come to at the Synod of
Thurles, he could assure the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government that at the very time when this synod was
sitting, there was a movement going on among the
influential Catholics of Dublin against this synod, whica was
stopped by the celebrated letter of the Noble Lord. Had
the Noble Lord considered the effect which this measure
would have upon the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland. It
would have the effect of superseding all episcopal functions.
Had the Noble Lord considered this? Was he ready to
frame an indictment against any prelate who might, per-
chance, break this law? They had sufficient laws on the
statute book which were not intended to be
acted upon, but if it was intended to put this law in execu-
tion, was the Noble Lord prepared to consign the Roman
Catholic prelates to the lowest den of felons?— (Cheers.)
Mr. ANSTEY, referring to the feelings of the Roman
Catholics of Ireland, cited the contempt with which
they had treated a recent bull sent there by the Pope.
The titles which the Roman Catholics bore, and would con-
tinue to bear, whether this Bill passed or not, were not de-
rived from the Pope, but by an unbroken succession from
St. Patrick. He thought the Hon. Gentleman who had just
sat down had made out a case for excepting Ireland from
this Bill in a manner which it was impossible to controvert ;
the Papal bull with which they had to deal was ad-
dressed to England alone, and referred to English titles only.
There was one point which had been observed neither by
one side pf the House nor the other. The powers of the
vicars-apostolic were continued throughout the whole of
these changes, so that in this respect the Bill was defective
But it was defective in another respect. The Bill provides
that all moneys vested in the Roman Catholic bishops for
charitable purposes should be vested in the Crown. New
it was perfectly impossible for any court of law or equity
to enforce any writ for the estreating of such trusts, and
even if they could, there would still be another obstacle. No
provision was made for the direction of moneys arising from
trusts already in existence. Then, with respect to the
power of the synod to regulate these funds he might cite
the case of the Church of Scotland, a foreign church to all
intents and purposes so far as his argument was concerned.
The, church ''always recognised the power of the temporal
authorities to deal with these funds exclusively of the eccle-
siastical officers, and when the separation took place be-
tween the established Church of Scotland and the seceders
the trusts were all regulated by the usual courts of law. In
three different instances appeals had been made to the Eng-
lish Court ofChancery, and in all of them the authorities
had been compelled to eject every one of the trustees who
had acted in conformity with the trusts which they fulfilled.
—(Hear, hear.) Then, again, with regard to the opinion
which had been expressed, that this edict of the Pope was in
accordance with the feeling of the Roman Catholic clergy,
he would say that such opinion was quite erroneous. Al-
though the clergy were anxious for the elevation of their
faith, they were still opposed to the establishment of any new
authority from a foreign power. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman read extracts from petitions from portions of
that body to the Pope and Cardinal Wiseman, deprecat-
ing any foreign interference, and stating that they desired
a power to snake a canon law for themselves, founded upon
the ancient canon law of England, and said that it there-
fore depended upon their present legislation how far such
power should be granted, and how injurious or beneficial it
might become. That power had not been granted, so that
the Romish hierarchy was, after all, only a contemplated
fact ; and the Bill which the Noble Lord proposed to
introduce was not only feeble and ineffectual for the object
which it was intended to effect, but absolutely mischievoue
in its character. He would now proceed to anticipate the
objections which might be
_m_ade to his
remarks. Until
1844 the ludo-Ronan Catholic Church was subject to
the Romish Pontiff without an y restraint.— ( Hear,
hear.) In that year a rescript had been. issued
to the Archbishop and clergy of Goa, requesting them
to do
Theycertain
fe
lfelt things
that
without
pthoraslppecowifyer.
authorityunonfectehsee unnecessary
they could not obey the
who on their appli-
pealed to the late Pope Gregory
provlsior! of that rescript, and ap-
hthicohutitth We
II n
cation issued a precept, stating that he should abidethey
by the
rules established by his predecessors, and all
stated that the coincidence of the temporal power was
absolutely necessary for carrying out any charitable
trusts with which the clergy might be invested.
lie should have proposed in the enactment that all bequests
to the Roman Catholic Church in England, both past and in
prospective, should be vested in certain trustees. The ques-
tion before the House was one which made it necessary that
' Hon. Members should fall into the same mistake as the
Government, and confound the case of Ireland with that of
England.—(Hear, hear.) The English Roman Catholics
were anxious for legislation on the subject, though
not in the spirit of this Bill, while the Irish Roman
Catholics repudiated all legislation whatever which should
interfere with their present status in Ireland, and he thought
both bodies were equally in the right. He should take the
earliest opportunity when the Bill came before the House to
move the omission of every word which related to Ireland,
and propose such amendments as he deemed necessary for
the protection of the liberties, property, and rights.of Eng-
lish Roman Catholics.
Great laughter was occasioned by nearly ten. Members
rising at the conclusion of the Hoe. Gentleman's speech, each
endeavouring to catch the Speaker's eye, but they gave way to
Dlr. SPOONER, who supported the measure, but depre-

cated any discussion until it had been laid before the House.
Ile thanked the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) for his able
and determined letter, and his bold, manly, honest, and con-
stitutional speech, in which he introduced the measure to
the consideration of the House; and he trusted he would ex-
cuse him if he said that the explanation he gave of the Bill,
and the second explanation given by the Attorney-General,
had fallenconsiderably short of what was generally expected.
He trusted, however, that when the pill came before the
House it would exceed such explanations, as far as it fell
short of the Noble Lord's letter and his speech.—(Hear.)
If the Noble Lord found himself placed in aposition of insur-
mountable difficulty with regard to the passing of a mea-
sure, he should advice him to throw himself on the country,
and if he did so he might rely on the support and confidence
of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. J. B. HOPE observed that his opinions on this
subject had not yet changed. He complained of the speech
which the Member for the city of Oxford had macla on the
question. That speech would have well become the repre-
sentative of the University of Oxford, but it ill became
the principles of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who de-
livered it.—(Hear, hear.) This measure bad no other ten..
dency but to compel the priesthood of Rome :to act sin
the dark ; it might prevent the publishing of pastoral
letters and such like documents under the signature of
Nicholas, Archbishop of Westminster, in newspapers, but it
would not prevent their being lithographed or printed,eand
sent through the Post-office.—(llear.) Of what use was
this Bill then? It had been dictated by mistaken big try,
and he doubted very much whether it really conveyed the
views of the Noble Lord who proposed it.—(Hear.) The
Roman Catholic hierarchy had done nothing which the law
could touch them for, and as they had only sought for and
obtained a position, be contended that it was unfair to pass
an ex post facto law to meet the case.— (Hear, hear.)
There was one view of the subject which he was rather
surprised had not been more generally dwelt
upon. Bills had already been before Parliament in which
the Pope was recognised as a Sovereign Pontiff, and his
authority acknowledged; and it was therefore highly unjust
to say now that the Pope had exceeded his legitimate power
in establishing this hierarchy.—(Hear.) Nor could it be
said after this that the Government was ignoront of the fact
that the Pope claimed spiritual authority over the Roman
Catholics of this country. Indeed, until this alleged Papal
aggression, that authority was never denied, but now, for-
sooth, because there was a little noise out of doors, the
Noble Lord and his Government found it convenient to en-
tirely shut out the past from their consideration.—(Hear.)
Col. THOMPSON had no wish to quarrel with his
brethren who professed the Roman Catholic religion, but he
did really think that an aggression had been committed in
this instance by the Pope.—(Hear, hear.) Some
Honourable Members 'had asked where was the
aggression; but, if instead of asking such questions
they would rook for it in the right place, they would
find plenty of aggression.—(Cheers.) A French General
brought the Pope back to Rome over the dead bodies of his
subjects, and, with Waterloo in his memory, he no doubt
advised his Holiness to send a message to England,
or why should there have been in this message
an allusion to the family of James the Second, a
representative of whom, or rather one claiming to
be a representative, was living at this moment in America.
- (Hear.) France knew all this, and so did her Majesty's
Government, for last session he handed them one of the ma-
nifestos of this representative.—(Laughter.) Besides that,
he understood this representative had, during the three days
of July attempted to pick a cparrel with a member of this
House, while, if he was not mistaken, the representative had
been making kind inquiries after him, because he had made
use of thewords," obsolete dynasty of the Stuarts."—(Laugh-
ter.) It might have been consolatory.or complimentary to
this country had the see of Rome created one of the members
of the English aristocracy a cardinal e but no,that would not
do for the French General ; he wished to engage Spain in the
war he bad in view, and therefore a Spaniard was
selected for the honour.—(Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.)
Now such things were neither, politic nor wise, and the
only construction that he could put upon it was that the
Pope desired to pursue an aggressiye course.—(Hear, hear.)
Nor was the part France had taken in the dispute to be ad-
mired, for he had read a statemet. in L'Unicers which re-
presented that the time had come when Protestantism
must be put down by. the force of arms.—(Hear, hear.)
He belonged to the society of Methodists, and he happened
to know that branch societies of that body bad been estab-
lished, which was perhaps well known. Now just fancy if
these branches, remembering the days of Agincourt, bad set
up a claim for the Crown of England to the kingdom of
France, did the House supposfe for one. moment that their
existencelwould have been allowed ?—(Hear, hear.) Would
not the French Government have had a right to view them
with jealousy had they even entertained such a notion?—
(Hear, hear.) Well, then, that was precisely the case here,
and he for one only regretted that the provisions and penal-
ties of the sth and 13th Elizabeth were not modified and
once more brought into force again.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME expressed his surprise that a man like the
Gallant Colonel, who had always been the friend of civil
and religious liberty, whose every thought and every vote
had, up to this moment, been in favour of Liberalism,
should talk of going back to the pains and penalties,
and all because France had been guilty of some insignificant
arrogance.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member
was advocating nothing less than persecution, and he there-
fore could not help fancying that he had fallen into some
mistake.—(Hear, hear.) He must have been misled by
what he had heard about America, and he begged and
prayed of the Hon. and Gallant Member to reconsider the
determination he seemed to have come to. - (Hear, hear.)
He had no doubt but that the Pope had been misled by
those men in the English Church who were engaged in
betraying instead of instructing their congregations.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought it was not fair to bring
in a measure of this nature while the laws affecting Ca-
tholics in England, Ireland, and Scotland, were different,
The Noble Lord had called upon them to put down aggres-
sion, but he had not stated what aggression was. He should
have liked to see the Bill which the Noble Lord
had intended originally to have laid on the table;
but it was evident from the speeoh of the
Attorney-General that the measure about to be
brought in was very different from the measure which the
Noble Lord would have brought in had he laid his Bill on
the table on Friday night. He deprecated the introduction
of any such measure as a measure of per-
secution. He had hoped that the last rag of
this persecution would have been swept away. How could
they hope to reduce taxation by reducing the establish-
ments, whilst they introduced measures that wore
irritating to a large portion of the population of Ireland and
the,Canadas ? Heegreed with the Hon. Member for Maidstone,
that this was a retrograde measure. They had 45,000 troops
in Ireland; how could they hope to reduce this number it
they by such unjust measures as this irritated the
Irish ? Why was it that Ireland was a disgrace to
us ? Why, because we maintained the remnant of these
persecuting laws. The Irish Church was to be maintained,
and the maintainance of the Church was the foundation of
the evils of Ireland, and he found fault with those who
were hounding on the Government to measures of persecution.
Mr. SPOONER denied that he was hounding the Govern-
ment to adopt measures of persecution.
Mr. HUME asked what then was the meaning of the
speech ofithe Hon. Gentleman ? He wished to express his
deep regret at the encouragement which the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, the leader of the party which
had suffered so much from the " No-Popery" cry, now
seemed ready to hold out to that very seine of
persecution. The first measure which the Noble Lord ought
to have brought in was one to set his own churchmen in
order—what use was it to guard against the wolf without
when there was a wolf within devouring those placed in his
charge? He believed that the temporalities of the Church
had much to do with the present movement. If the
Church had been set in order long ago they never
would have :heard any more of Papal aggression. It
appeared to him that the 'Noble Lord was afraid to trust
his own principles, he was afraid to expose his own faith to
the activity of Roman Catholic priests. But he (Mr.
Hume) believed that there was no moral danger of this sort,
except from the comparison which might be instituted be-
tween the priests of the Roman Catholic and Established
Church. It had astonished him that the Noble Lord
should have taken the step which he had. For his part he
would have free trade in religion, and let him who had the
best defend it. The only way to keep the Church of Eng-
land was to abolish all sinecures and pluralities. It gave
him the greatest pain to see the commencement of a
system opposed to the procceedings of the last twenty-five
years, and more especially commenced by the Noble Lord.
He rose principally to express his opinion that if the Noble
Lord wished to keep the wolves out of the Church, he should
first extirpate those who were already within it. If he did
that he should receive his cordial support ; but he would find
himself in greater difficulties than he imagined if he expected
to pass the measure in the shape he proposed.—(Hear.)
Mr. A. OSWALD said in the county of Ayr, which he
represented, not a single meeting had been convened, nor
had a single encouragement been held out to the Noble Lord
to enter upon his present course of proceeding. He trusted
the Noble Lord would meet with no support in Scot-
land. He believed the act of the Pope was purely
a spiritual one, unaccompanied by any temporal
provision, and he was at a loss to see how it could be looked
at in any other light. The Hon. Gentleman alluded to the
Free Church of Scotland, and observed that though the old
dioceses of the Established Church were selected, and a
general assembly periodically held for its more perfect go-
vernment, no interference was made by the Government.
Now was there any difference between this act and that
which had been attempted by the Church of Rome?—
(Hear, hear.) The Free Church of Scotland had done
nothing more than that which had been attempted by the
Pope.— (Hear, hear.) Whatever argument applies
to the act of the one authority applies equally
to the other, and he was therefore profoundly
surprised to find that the Noble Lord ( Lord John Russell)
had abandoned all the principles of his whole life. The
precept by which Cardinal Wiseman assumed to himself the
title of Archbishop of Westminster, had not been signed by
any regularly constituted authority in this country.
The Noble Lord might draw distinctions between the two
cases but he confessed himself /quite incapable of seeing
any difference between them, and he should like to see
how the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary
at War (Mr. Fox Maule) could reconcile his conduct in the
one case with his conduct in the other.—(Cheers.) The
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department
said that all England bad raised its voice in favour of some
Bill, if not of this Bill, for the repression of this aggression;
but until he saw that opinion acceded to by his Hon. Friend
the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. Inglis),
and endorsed by the Hon. Member for Warwickshire (Mr.
Spooner), he could not by any means•join in that opinion.
The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had complained that the
act of the Pope was an invasion of the supremacy of the
Crown. If the supremacy of the Crown was to be interpreted
as the Noble Lord bad interpreted it, then he must say that
it was as gross an act of tyranny as any that he had ever
heard of.—(Cheers.) He could assure the Noble Lord that
there were those on that side of the House who were
quite ready to go over to the other, and who were quite as
able to manage the public affairs as the Noble Lord himself ;
and if he persevered in giving this interpretation to the su-
premacy of the Crown he might rest assured that the in-
tolerance which had caused civil broils to be engendered for
nearly 200 years would excite against him an opposition with
which he would never be able to contend,—(Hear, and cheers).
The Noble Lord would not have dared to introduce that mea-
sure unless he had thought that those with whom he (Mr.
Oswald) acted had been irretrievably distressed.—(Hear.
hear.) He ensured him that such was not the case, but that
they were prepared to act together. - (Cheers.) By perse-
verance he would arouse the feelings of all these who as
members of the Church of Scotland had themselves
and by their ancestors lost both houses and lands for the
sake of religious liberty.—(Cheers.) As the proposed Bill
now stood, it was neither more nor less than an act of the
vilest persecution.--(Loud cheer!e)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—sir, I can well allow the
observations of the Honourable Member for Montrose
(Mr. Hume) to pass without comment seeing that
he has given his consent to the introduction
of the measure. The Act against which this Bill is directed
anyanycou
ntry potentate
over t
which
hcioc consti-
tute tbi- e
is contrary to the public law of every country in Europe.
tlut
twe asdirneocttiopenrms
foitrttehdebseu'
subjects
not exercise sovereign authority. Secondly, it is eon-
trary to that public authori;y for any power to be
exercise or any title to be married, particularly where it
that
ject s law
of
for