The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-25 00:00:00

TUESDAY EVENING-,

contest would fall weigh well the consequences before
they began it. He maintained that it would fall upon
the Protestants of Ireland. Let them count the cost.
Look at the struggle that lied bees maintained against
the Roman Catholics in that country for nearly
a century and a half. Every power of the
State had been put in motion, and he ventured
to Fay that history did not record a :wore signal
defeat than that of trying to coerce the Catholics of Ire-
land into a similar belief with the Protestants of Eng-
land. The industrious classes in Ireland had been ruined
by that struggle, and the very name and spirit of the
Protestant religion was lost. Bishops were amassing
large fortunes, but no glebe houses were built, and the
sound of the Gospel was not heard in the churches.
Relatirely, the number of Protestants was smaller at the
close than at the commencement of the struggle. The
Church was obliged to submit to the loss of half its pro-
perty under the tithe arrangement, while the people
were deprived of ten of their bishops. Such were the
results of the struggle, and he warned the Protestants of
Ireland not to enter upon another. Upon these grounds
ha, must withhold his support from the Noble Lord.
Although he had heard a great deal of ability in support
of the measure, the justice appeared to him verydublous.
Although he did not doubt that the measure was brought
forward in all honour and good faith, at the same time,
instead of adding strength to the cause it professed to
advocate, it would bring weakness, and he an infringe-
ment of that complete toleration which, in his con-
science, he believed, by being scrupulously acted upon,
and firmly maintained, would do more for the cause of
true religion and the spread of spiritual truth, than all
the defences that alarm could suggest, and all the safe-
guards which misguided hut sincere enthusiasm could
surround it with.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GRATTAN quite concurred in everything that
had fallen from the Hon. Member for Cavan, except in
one word. The lion. Gentleman called this a struggle.
lie (Mr. G.) called it w. r in disgniae—the worst sort of
war, by an ueintellible Act of Parliament. Though this
measure was wholly unintelligible inside the House, it
was perfectly intelligible outside of doors. The
people of Ireland had expressed their opinions
upon the subject, and, as far as words go, the contest
was ended. If any foreigner had come within their
walls a few nights ago, they would be et a loss to com-
prehend what we were discussing. They would ask
what were we discussing—vas it larceny? No.
Was it Science ? No. Waa it morality ? No. Was
it religion ? Oh, far from ir. Why lion. Members
were merely opposing the religion of their forefathers.
The old antiquated attacks; supreme ignorance; affected
knowledge of the canon law; mistaken quotations ; mis-
applied law, and confusion of intellect such as had never
been heard of even in the worst days, in 1808 and 1818.
These were the characteristics of the present discussion,
The Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield the other
night said that the Irish Members had the honour of re-
ducing the measure to its present impetft et condition;
and when he alluded to the Irish brigade he said that
they had destroyed the Noble Lord's Government, and
might now pronounce their epitaph. Thelrish Members,
however, were not to be considered of so sanguinary a
character. It was the Noble Lord himself that had
committed an act of suicide. We resisted with indigna-
tion this aggression upon our liberties and the liberties
of our country, because we knew we did not deserve it.
What had Ireland done that she should be put in this
Bill? She had been silent and quiescent until she was
roused by this penal Bill. In the very first line of the
preamble of this Bill there was contained a monstrous
public falsehood, for it said, that " whereas many of her
Majesty's subjects in the United Kingdom have assumed
certain titles in consequence of a letter from the Pope."
Now, was that true?—(Hear.) Why it was a direct and
palpable falsehood. The Irish prelates had not assumed
these titles. 'Whatever might be said of the Catholic
prelates in England assuming those titles that were ob-
jected to, it could not ho said that the prelates of the
United Kingdom had done so, for those in Ireland could
not be charged with doing so. Was there common sense
or common justice in fining those prelates for an act of
which they had never been guilty? But the Hon.
Gentleman opposite said that this measure would be
evaded, because it would be found to be wholly inopera-
tive. The Government, however, would endeavour to
enforce the Act, for the Noble Lord at the head
of it said it would form the groundwork of ulterior
measures. What would the Roman Catholics do un-
der the circumstances? Could they make them less
Catholic than they were before? No; they were Ca-
tholics, and would remain so, and they were right to be
Catholics.—(Laughter.) What right had the Govern-
ment or Parliament to say that they were not to have
their own bishops? The Government were involving
themselves, not with the Pope, but inn serious contest
with the Irish people. The Bill would be prejudicial to
England, but pernicious to Ireland. Rad they not com-
plete Protestant ascendancy? What more did they
want? They were seeking to prosecute and to trammel
the Roman Catholic Church. Mr. Curran, in speaking
of Protestant ascendancy in Ireland, said, " It was the
greasy emblem of stall-fed theology—it had all the
graces of a lady's maid and the dignity of the larder.
Its loyalty was the dregs of the brandy-bottle, and its
religion the dregs of its patrons' understanding, brought
into power to devour, to defame, and to degrade." Great
apprehensions were entertained in respect to the tem-
poral authority oft the Pope. Now, what did the late
Right Rev. 1)r. Doyle say when examined before a
Committee of that House upon the subject? He was
asked this question—" Are not the vicars-apostolic
bound to pay implicit obedience to the Pope?" Answer
—"This is a supposition which I cannot admit, be-
cause the Pope might by possibility, order a man
to do a thing that was immotat,. or that was
contrary to Oa ob'ey.'l'' `11011;
yet 11. J. LIS snot
and Learned Member for the city of Oxford (Mr. P.
Wood), and the Noble Lord subsequently, said that
the Pope might absolve the soldier or the police from
their allegiance to their Sovereign. The Pope could
not do any such thing. Even if they really thought
that the Pope could do so, they should have kept the
matter a secret and not proclaim it aloud; for in case
of a war, if the act were possible, the hint might be
taken. If the Duke of Wellington, on the field of
Waterloo, when he uttered the command, " Up, Guards,
and at them," was answered by the men laying down
their arms, considering themselves absolved from their
allegiance, what would have been the consequence?—
(Laughter.) He (Mr. Grattan) could not but admire
the calm resignation which always characterised the
lion. Member for the University of Oxford. The Hon.
Baronet observed that there were two modes of repell-
ing this aggression—the one was by proclamation, and
the other by bombardment. As to the first we have
proclamations ad nauseam. What Would be the object
of this proclamation? Why, mere names, not realities.
He then spoke of bombarding,. Civita Vecchia on the
one side, and Ancona on the other, He should not
wonder if the next caricature of 118. repre- '
sented the Honourable Baronet, like the maid of Sara-
gossa, with one leg on Civita Vecehia and the other
leg on Ancona, making a frightful onslaught upon
those two places.—(Loud laughter.) That was the
peculiar legislation recommended by the Hon.
Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford. It
could not be said that this question of alleged Papal
aggression could not b© settled by communication with
the Pope, for whatever might be said to the contrary, it
was a matter of fact, and the Pope had had intercourse
both with the Crown and the. Government of this coun-
try in times when religious liberty
was not so advanced
as at the present. Look at the letters that had passed
in 1793 between his Holiness and Lord Grenville and
George 111. on the subject of the Irish oaths. Yes, and
their admirals and generals held communication at the
same time with the Government of the Pope; witness
Admiral Hood's letters. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
J. Graham) had referred the other night to the letter of
Mr. Knox to Lord Castlereagh. lie might, by the way,
observe that on reading through the work from which
the Right Hon. Baronet bad quoted that letter, he was
struck with the fact that whatever might have been the
local prejudices of Lord Castlereagh, his correspondence
showed that on great occasions he rose above those pre-
judices, and was equal to any task, however great, that
might arise before him. In that book, however, there
was a letter from Lord Cornwallis to Lord Castlereagh,
dated February, 1800, in which he took credit, so sure
was he of the result, as for a fait accompli,
for having
accomplished the union, Catholic emancipation, and the
restoration of perfect tranquillity
in Ireland. Lord
Cornwallis, though thus sanguine, was, however, disap-
pointed—faith was broken with him, and the peace of
Ireland was not maintained. So it would be again if
they persevered in their present course; war—inevitable
war—would be the consequence. The Hon. Member
then quoted Mr. Canning and Dean Swift, and said that
if it would take 40,000 men to put down tenant right in
the north of Ireland, it would take all her Majesty's
army to put down the religion of 6,000,000 of people in
Ireland. The Hon. Member further stated that when in
IE7 the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
voted against the war with Bonaparte, his father, the
late Mr. Grattan, though removed from the Privy Coun-
cil in Ireland, and with the full recollection of articles of
indictment for high treason having been prepared against
him, voted for that war which the victory of Waterloo
ratified. On that occasion an Englishman became a
Bonapartist, while an Irishman supported the honour of
England,
Mr. G. BERKELEY said the Protestants of England
would learn by the issue of the debate the measure that
had been placed before them by one section of free-
traders, and supported by another, as represented by the
Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon. He
(Mr. G. Berkeley) did not rise for the purpose of en-
cumbering the discussion with any remarks on the sub-
ject immediately before the House—(Laughter)—but
to repudiate that most disgraceful accusation which had
been poured upon the heads of the Catholics—an accu-
sation which he held to be a disgrace to the character of
that House. He rose as au indignant Protestant—
(Laughter)—to repudiate any such aid as was offered to
the Protestant cause by the Honourable Member for
West Surroy.—(Hear, and laughter.) He held that
speech to be a disgrace to any cause that had over been
brought before Parliament ; and he would venture to
inquire whether the pure vessel who made it, or rather
whether that bird of ill omen who had fouled the nest of
others, did not himself reside in a nest that would not
bear to be looked into ?—(Hear, laughter, and ques-
tion.) Before the Hon. Gentleman made such state-
ments as those against the Catholics ho should be sure
that he did not himself dwell in a glass house.—(Qaes-
lion, and laughter.) The Hon. Member had accused
the Catholics of idolatry, bigotry, and a belief in ridicu-
lous, supernatural agency; but did the Hon. Member
himself disbelieve in such agency? Had he never heard
of the ghost that haunted Altiborough Park?—(Laughter,
and cries of " Question.") Was his not an implicit
belief in that agency—whether from the mirrors in his
room that caused him to suppose his house haunted?—
(Cries of " Question.") Did the Hon. Member not pull
down a part of his old house?—(Cries of " Question. e).
West Surrey was the last place to read the Catholics of
the United Kingdom Buell a lesson as that which had
been read by the lion. Member, when it was known,

that in one house there was always laid a golden knife
and fork for—(Cries of "Question" cut short the sen-
tence.) The nttack made by the Bon. Member for
West Surrey was as fslie as anything coald he against
the Catholics of this country.—(Cries of "Question.")
As to his (Mr. G. Berkeley's) vote on the question under
debate, he should give it in favour of the Bill—(Hear,
hoar, and Laughter)--not because he thought it an
efficient measure—(Laughter)—but simply on the prin-
ciple that some legislation was due to the Protestant
religion of the country.—(Hear', hear.)
Viscount CASTLEREAGH had no wish to put
himself forward in the debate, as he had nothing new
to suggest; but he felt himself bound to express his
opinions on the subject, that his constituents might
know what they were, and his reasons for entertaining
them. In any observation that he should make, how-
ever, he deprecated the slightest feeling of asperity
or unkindness, and would not willingly say a word to
wound the feelings of any one. To ids Roman Catho-
lic fellow-countrymen he would say, that, as far as re-
ligion was cone( rued, he could have no sympathy with
them. There was a gulf between them which could
not be passed in that respect. He had too firm an attach-
ment to the pure and apostolic branch of the Catholic
Church in which he had been reared to entertain any
such sympathy. But while he respected the convic-
tions of his fellow-countrymen, at the same time he
differed from them, he could hold out the right hand
of fellowship, and refer to the time when, within the
walls of that House, be had fought with them side by
side, in defence of religious liberty.—(Hear.) Look-
ing back, however, to the great name tiler, he so un-
worthily bore—looking on the legacy that the great
man who first bore it had left him, he felt proud to be
arrayed with his Roman Catholic fellow-subiecte on the
same platform in support of the same principle—that
platform being the floor of the House of Corumene, end
that principle civil and religious liberty.—(Herr.) The
Noble Lord would perhapsliermit him to say that it was
with peculiar pleasure he had heard, after long years had
expired, the name of that great statesman now no more,
but to whom he (Lord Castlereagh) was related, vindi-
cated, and vindicated too from such a source, and from
such authority; for differing, as the vindicator did from
the policy of his noble relative on many points connected
with the history of Ireland, and in which he bore his
part, as Mr. Grattan had done before him, he attested,
and from his heart honestly and sincerely attestef, that
the name of Castlereagh was ever associated with the
civil and religious liberties of his country. Turning to
the Bill under discussion, his Lordship then proceeded
to observe that the question which struck him with re-
ference to the measure was this: was it the fittest
that could be adopted under the circumstances of the
case? Tho Noble Lord the Foreign Secretary said that
it was but a small measure; that he could not conceive
of anybody voting against it; and that he was sure he
himself would not support it if he thought it were a per-
secuting measure. Ile (Lord Castlereagh) was quite free
to admit that the Noble Lord implicitly believed what
he said. But was he not aware that the voice of the
whole people of Ireland were opposed to the measure?—
(Hear, hear.) Surely the Noble Lord could not be blind
to what was taking place out of doors—to the feelings
with which the name of Russell was now received in
Ireland—to the demonstration of the bar of Ireland, and
the public meetings which had taken place in every
quarter in that country in reference to this measure.
In fact it appeared to him (Lord Castlereagh) that
the Bill was satisfactory to no one—and that " small"
as it might be it was not the less obnoxious, whilst
there was something in the mode of passing
it which was peculiarly obnoxious. As our neigh-
bours in France would term it, it was " the reactionary
policy of a transition Ministry."—(Hear.) The Noble
Lord next condemned the language which had been held
by the supporters of the Bill, the manner in which the
people of Ireland had been spoken of, and the whole
tcne and temper of the debates upon the subject; all of
which he put forward as reasons against such rapid and
ill-digested legislation. Long ago they had been taught
the effects of penal legislation in Ireland. And if this
measure passed, so far as Ireland was concerned, he
did not see in what way the administration of justice, or
the government of that country, was to be conducted.
Convinced as he was, then, of the impolicy of such a
measure, that it would not satisfy the people of England,
and would certainly irritate the people of Ireland—he
would not consent to endorse with his humble name a
Bill which was likely to be fraught with much of evil.
Mr. B. HOPE (amidst constant interruptions) next
addressed the House, and twitted the advocates of the
Bill with their inconsistency, in first denouncing it as
inadequate to meet the circumstances of which they
complained, and then with the same breath uniting to
vote for it.—(Cries of " Divide," and " Adjourn.")
Further, the measure would be operative or inoperative.
—(Divide, divide.) If it were operative it would be an
answer to the Pope.—(Great noise.) But it appeared
to him that they were directing their legislation against
the bishops, who were comparatively innocent parties,
whilst the insult had come from the Pope.—(Laughter,
" Oh," and cries of " Divide.") As a means of dealing
with the aggression of Rome the measure was ridicu-
lously absurd.—(Uproar.) Having been prepared to
oppose the Bill when it contained three clauses, he was
equally prepared to oppose the Bill now it contained but
one clause, because he held it to be disgraceful to the
magnanimity of the nation, fertile in shame, and barren
of those great principles of policy which ought to regu-
late the affairs of a great nation.
Mr. HOBHOUSE moved the adjournment of the de-
bate.—(Cheers and shouts of " Go on!")
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was most desirable that
the House should come to a decision on this subject to-
night.—(Cheers.) He found that 26 Members had
Awoke; sgeinengate eabfor it. and they had
advanced against further proceeding with the measure.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that if they debated
the question for six days more they could have any ad-
ditional argument, and he trusted that if any gentleman
wished to address the House they would be beard now.
—(Cheers and some cries of " Adjourn!")
Mr. MOORE, who was received with loud shouts of
" Spoke," said there were a great number of Members
who wished to address the House on the subject, and the
Noble Lord seemed to forget that the representatives of
Ireland had occupied but a very small portion of the
debate.—(lronical cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh!")
They had not occupied more than five or six hours of
the whole debate—(Hear and laughter)—and some 12
or 14 hours had been taken up by the specches of Mem-
bers in support of the Bill.—(Hear.)
Mr. SCULLY begged to remind the House that
the measure was one affecting the interests of 7,000,000
of her Majesty's Roman catholic subjects in this king-
dom.—(Hear.) There were some 35 or 40 Catholic
Members in that House, only seven of whom had spoken
on the question; and he thought that was a sufficient
reason for a further adjournment of the debate.—(Cheers,
cries of " Ohl" and laughter.) He thought it most de-
sirable for the interests of the, people of Ireland that the
measure should be fully discussed; and the Government
would be doing themselves a great deal of service if they
did not now press the House to a division upon the
(Shouts of " Go on," and some confusion.)
Sir GEORGE GREY said, it appeared from the re-
cords kept at the table that 14 Irish Members had ad-
dressed the House upon this subject; and the time they
had occupied, instead of being only five or six hours, had
been eleven and a half hours.—(Laughter and cheers.)
He must therefore appeal to the House whether the
question had not been fully discussed?—(Cheers.) Other
opportunities would present themselves, when Hon.
Members who had not yet had an opportunity of ad-
dressing the House would be able to state their
opinions fully upon the subject.—(Hear, hear.) A
strong and reasonable desire had been expressed that
the House should proceed with other business—
(Cheers)—but it was impossible to do so while this de-
bate was hanging over—(Renewed cheers)—and there-
fore he trusted that the House would now come to a de-
cision upon the second reading.
Mr. OSWALD had no wish unnecessarily to prolong

the debate; but, as this Bill affected SCotlatid—(A.
laugh)—and only one single Member for that part of the
United Kingdom had addressed the House during the
discussion, he was anxious to hear from some of the
Scotch representatives who sat behind the Treasury
bench their reasons for desiring that the measure should
be extended to Scotland, where there had been no Papal
aggression, and where the whole state of the case was
very different from what it was in England.—(Hear.)
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said they had been told by the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) that those Hon.
Members who had not yet spoken would have opportu-
nities of doiLg so on other stages of the measure. He
had risen two or three times during the progress of the
debate, but he had not been fortunate enough to catch
the Speaker's eye, and he, as an Irish Roman Catholic
Member, claimed his right to be heard.—(Shouts of
"Go on," and laughter.) He would not.—(Great
laughter.) He would not address such a jaded audience
—(Laughter)—at that hour of the night (half past 12),
for if he were to do so, he would neither do his duty to
himself nor to the House.—(" Go on," and laughter.)
He did not think the Irish Members, particularly the
Catholic Members and those: representing Catholics,
ought to bate one inch of any ground they could fight
upon this questiou.—(" Oh!" and some cheers.) He be-
lieved the Irish Members were with him upon that point,
and if the Noble Lord chose to try a division, or ten di-
visions, upon the question of adjournment, he would be
met upon every one of them.—(General cries of " Oh,
oh!" and confusion.)
After a few words from Mr. URQUHART, who was
understood to support the adjournment,
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said he
agreed with the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment that it was desirable the debate should be brought
to a close as soon as possible—(Cheers)—but he must
call upon the Noble Lord to remember the groat excite-
ment which prevailed on this subject, and that while a
great number of Gentlemen were desirous of speaking
only seven Catholic Members out of thirty-seven had yet
addressed the House. This measure had caused great
excitement among the Catholic constituencies, and the
Noble Lord could not bo surprised that they should be
auxious that their representatives should give expression
to their feelings. He hoped, therefore, that the Noble
Lord would not oppose the adjournment,
Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that the Noble Lord
gave the House very little hope of coming to any vary
early conclusion on this subject.—(A laugh.) There
were several motions on the book for to-morrow, and
the Noble Lord said that out of 37 Catholic Members
only seven had spoken in six nights of debate, ao that if
the other 30 Members were to speak—(Laughter)—it
was impossible to say when they might expect to con-
clude the debate.—(Renewed laughter.)
Mr. REYNOLDS begged to remind the House that
the adjournment bad been moved by an English and not
by an Irish Member. Although the Noble Lord (Lord
J. Russell) had said that 48 Members had addressed the
pßoi Bill
tcioounl_d not
House on this measure, those who were opposed to the
it any factious op-
ironical cheers)—
witho offeringand
and the course that was to be pursued to-night would
decide whether it was to receive factious opposition for
r ibees cof f a r
` g'
eOdh, ht