The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

might be granted to them. It was a very convenient
thing in that as well as the other House of Parlia-
ment to get through a second reading by referring a Bill
to a S'elect Committee. He could understand the sp..
pointment of a'Select Committee to consider the ma,
nagereent of episcopal and capitular estates, and then to
refer that Big to such a Committee. That would be
the course which he thought might be more satisfacto-
rily adopted. It appeared te hire, without meaning to
go into the details of the Bill, that it was the com-
mencement of an interference with the property ot the
Church which ought not to take place, and a destroying
of that independeece which the Church ought to possess
in this country. At such a moment as the present, too,
when they were stemming the aggressions made upon
the Church, he considered the introduction of such a
measure was most unwise, as it seemed a measure cal-
culated to injure the independence of the Church. He
fully agreed with the Right Rev. Prelate that the Bill
was but a temporary remedy for a temporary evil, when
it ought to be of a more comprehensive nature to be
really useful.
The Earl of HARROWBY (who spoke in a very low
tone) was understood to observe that the question they
had to consider was, whether they would go into Com-
mittee upon the general subject of Church property of
that description, or refer that particular Bill to a Select
Committee? The mode proposed—namely, that of re-
ferring the Bill to such a Committee, was the usual ono
adopted for dealing with such matters, and doing so did
not commit any party on the general principle of the
measure. After having referred to some of the details
of the Bill, and replied to some of the observations made
upon them by the Bishop of London, the Noble Earl
asked their Lordships whether they were prepared to
reject the only means which just now presented them-
selves for providing for the great and growing wants of
the Church?
Lord STANLEY said it appeared to him that there
was a very general concurrence with regard to that
measure upon two points ; first, that the various com-
munications and correspondence which had taken place
relative to the matter had directed public attention to it,
and then that the inquiry which both Houses of Parlia-
ment had made had led to the almost universal consent
that some legislation ought to take place on the subject;
The public mind had been so excited on the question,
and the public attention so much called to it, that it was
better for the interests of the Church, and thoee con-
nected with its property, that they should come to some
determined course of management with respect to that
particular description of property. On the other hand,
there was a general feeling that the question should not
be approached without giving to alt parties concerned
full notice of the matter, as if it were a private Bill af-
fecting property in which they had an inteseet. Ad
should have no hesitation as to the course which he
should pursue were the question before them one
simply to affirm or reject the principle of the
Bill. But the question was a much narrower one—
that of voting for referring the Bill, or not, to a
Select Committee. He did not think they were either
affirming or rejecting the principle of the Bill by
referring it to a Select Committee; and he conceived
that the Right Rev. Prelate had somewhat underrated
the power of a Select Committee when he supposed that
the principle of the Bill would be affirmed by such a
reference, end that the objects to be effected by it were
to be carried out. The objects of the Bill, as stated iu
the preamble, was to the effect that it was " for the im-
provement of the present system of management of the
real property of the Church of England, so as to render
it more conducive to the spiritual welfire of those be-
longing to the Church, and for correcting the fluctuating
annual value of the said property," &e. Now, it was
not natural to suppose any of their Lordships would ob-
ject to .any proposition for making the property of the
Church more conducive to the spiritual welfare of her
children. But the investigation of the protein mill in-
vited to the consideration of two vary material subjects,
and these were the respective righte of the lessors and
the lessees. There was another very important part of
the question—namely, in what manner were they to deal
with the property and the episcopal revenues so as to
carry out that proposed portion of the system, the allot-
ment ot a fixed income to the bishops? Is had been fully
felt that there was a great variety in the amount of the
of bishops, and also ot a b,.fy of men whose
duties were equally important. And within the last few
ysars efforts had been made to equalise the revenues
and the labours of their respective sees; and no doubt
it was desirable to do so as far as possible. lie believed
that the correctly expressed object of the Commission
was nut to obtain a fixed ineoette for the bishops, but a
more equal average one. Ile -did not assent to the doe-
triue that Parliament had laid it down as a principle
that a fixed and not an equalized income was desirable.
If he understood the proposed Bill properly, the whole
of the income was to be taken under the management of
the Commissioners, to be by them after reconverted into
lauded property. Now that appeared to him a very
complicated arrangement, and one which required
great consideration as to its details. With respect to
the condition of the lessors and lessees after that Bill
should have passed, ho understood the Right Reverend
Prelate objected to giving the tenant a right in per-
petuity. The tenants of the Church had at the pre-
sent moment no indefeasible right to the renewal of their
leases; but their Lordships wero bound to consider
what was the practical result of the existing tenure of
that property. He held it to be the case, that the lessee
had the prescriptive right on the lessor, although he had
no legal claim for his lease. The difference between
the value of freehold property, and that held under
the Church by the existing law, was easily ascertained.
Anxious as he was to improve the property of the Church,
and sensible as he was of the proposed benefit, be could
not, looking to the equitable rights of the lessees, agree
to sacrifice them at once, as if the Church was in full
possession of the whole property, and had nothing to do
but io run out the lives and come into its enjoyment.
• That which could not be obtained without an Act of
Parliament ought not to be obtained without giving
some equivalent advantage to the other party whose in-
terests were effected. If ho could be shown how the pro-
perty could be increased to a similar amount without
altosring the relations in which they at present stood, he
would approve of that in preference to any other mode.
There was now a portion of the value of the property
in abeyance, which was to benefit either the lessor or
the lessee. That increased value, however, should he
divided between them. The Bill, moreover, proposed to
do away with leases of lives renewable for ever. Now,
although in agricultural property leases of lives were not
found to be an advantageous description of tenure, yet,
when the leases were renewable for ever, it was like a
freehold. They contemplated, therefore, making a very
serious alteration in converting freehold into mere
personal property. In such a case they took away civil
and political rights. He should be unwilling to reject
that which was said to be the principle of the Bill, hut
there were words in the preamble which threw some
doubt upon his mind. There was allusion made to cer-
tain Commissioners, and when they went on to say from
the recommendations of those Commissioners such and
such things were to be done, it seemed like binding
themselves to the principle of the Bill. Ile did not
think it was desirable to reject that Bill, but ho believed
it was desirable their Lordships should consider that,,r
question as fairly and as deliberately as possible.
.Fio
considering not only that Bill, but any ether preposition
brought forward on the part of the lesse:,sh, h
be taken—a
etheerwothis
t theprinciple
of which would neither affirm or reject
o
e
msictetoene,dtorewadhiinchg
scuo Uggr sees tmti htt hneo tNboebtl el‘ml aore(itu iasd ys
of :he Bill. They could not refer the Bill to aSelect.
Committee without its having received a second reading,
Mat ho would venture to suggest was, whether it
opposite,ab i
advisable
t,
for the present—to
the matters stated in the preamble of
might be referred pint Pao gel! oe
nc
etohme
the Bill, and other
'ewe
which
et the ei
t shouldsshould
u l
ba
t. 7
admitted made i its report.w as a d f
cut:
iht
might not be
are advisable
attets connected with the subject, and meantime the
the reports of the Commiseioners
mad! itself could remain standing over without prejudice
subject,
was the course which hi, ventured to recommend upon
and important one, and one which required the
tallest
and fairest deliberation.—(llear, hear.)
Earl FITZWILLIAM 6aid there would he very
tuhnatti s tuhbei
on-
,idera,ble danger in adopting the proposition withwehi
his Noble Friend concluded. thought - A.l
he might ven-
ture to affirm that if that proposal were agreed to their
Lordships would not pass any Bill on that subject during
the present session of Parliament.— (" Hear, hear " from
the Government side). They all knew how th
at
question t a
question had been hung •
up for consideration; and ha
thought their Lordships would agree with him that it
would not be desirable to take a course, which would
have the effect of postponing all legislation on the i
'cot for an indefinite space
of time.—(Hear, hear.) If
the interests of the lessees were to be injured by that
Bill then ho would say let them take those
interests intr.) consideration. He believed the
lessees had very strong claims upon Parliament,
whatever might he done on the question.
They had strong claime, inasmuch as
,thesenrewlitoved.elri)e
the legal trustees of the property llbeo'f landed re-'
the system leases of all the troubles
If and with reference
to which, speaking for
himself,
found t
o be not at all
to the last twelve months. - that he s -
&proved of
inconsiderable. He could not
suanydoubtedly,
every clause iu the Bill,
_Mrt
but he did some parts to which objections;hehotheae not
postponement of legisla-
tion he ought to vote for C
and should therefore time on that accouat, vote for the
second reading with
the view of the Bill being referred
to a Select Committee.
ANSDOWNE
The marquis , felt it incumbent on
him
to
make a few remarks with reference to the course
which the Noble Lord opposite had advised their Lord-
shipsonthis question.
to pursue He believed that the
Noble Lord had stated most correctly all that had passed
.`
at former periods on this subject. But he thought that
the Noble Lord, en r( consideration, would see that
course proposed to he taken by his Noble Friend near
him was perfectly cousistent with the objections which
the Noble Lord and other Noble Lords entertained to
the provisions of the Bill. The course proposed by his
Noble Friend was for their Lordships to read the Bill a
second. time without pledging themselves to any one
provision of it, beyond that stated by the Noble Lord
himself, and to which reference was made in the pre-
amble—viz , that the present state of Church property
veto not such ac ought to be coetinned, and that it was
desirable fur the Legisla ure to interfere, with a view
(if Putt leg it en a better footing with respect to the in-
terests of those who own that property, and with
due consideration of the interests of those who gal
under them. Beyond that he believed nothing would be
affirmed as the principle of the measure. Any details
which the Nettle Lord might wish to amend might be
considered in a Select Committee; and tes the object tsf
the Noble Lord was the same as hie cwii—to have the
Bill considered_ho need not remind the Noble Lord
that before a fseleil Committee could do so, the Bill
must be read a second time by their Lerdthhes. He
wished the Committee to have the opportunity of coesi-
deetee the report, arid the evidence on which is was
founded, and, at the same time, the provisions of the
Bill itself. He asked their Lordships who had had CI.