The Sun.
London, England, 1856-06-06 00:00:00

OUR RELATIONS WITH AMERICA.

Earl HARDWICKE asked for any information the
Government had in respect to a question of the greatest

importance.

The Duke of ARGYLL (interrupting) expressed a
hope that the noble earl would not press any question in
respect to America in the absence of his colleagues in
the Goifernment. He had been engaged in committee
up to.three o'clock, and was unable to satisfy him upon
the point.

Earl HARDWICKE was about continuing his obser-
vations when he was again interrupted by
Tlks Earl of MINTO, who said he thought the noble
earl was out of order in pressing the question.
Earl GRANVILLE having taken hie seat at this time,
Earl HARDWICKE asked whether he had any
objection to inform their lordships whether the report
which had that day appeared in the public papers,
that our representative, Mr. Crampton, had been dis-
missed from his position in the United States, was cor-
rect

Earl GRANVILLE said he was not aware that any
information had been received by the Government as
to any such matter.
LIMITED LIABILITY BILL.

Lord OVERSTONE, in presenting a petition against
this bill, took the opportunity of stating his opinion that
this was a most ill-advised measure.
HAY AND STRAW TRADE BILL.
Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY moved the second
reading of this bill, which was to prevent the frauds that
existed in the packing of hay and straw.
The bill was read a second time.
PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
APPELLATE JURISDICTION (HOUSE OF

LORDS) BILL.
On the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR the
report of the amendments on tho above bill was, after a
short discussion, in which Earl Granville, Lord Redee-
dale, and the Earl of Wicklow took part, agreed to.
JUVENILE CONVICTS (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
REFORMATORY SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This bill was also real a third time and passed.
NATIONAL GALLERY BILL,

On the motion of Earl GRANVILLE this bill was read a
third time and passed.
BURIAL GROUNDS.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY rose to present a,
petition from the mayor and inhabitants of Blandford,
complaining of the non-consecration of their new burial-
ground.

- The Bishop of SALISBURY explained .the ziames of
the Act of Parliament which regulated the proceedings
of the bishops in reference to the consecration of ceme-
teries.
Some discussion ensued, in which Lord Portman, the
Bishop of Oxford, tho Eirl of Portsmouth, the Marquis
of Bath, and Lord Dungannon took part, and the sub-
ject then dropped.
THE ITALIAN ',QUESTION.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE, who bad given
notice of a question on the subject of the Sardinian
notes, said at an earlier hoar of the evening, and in a
fuller house, he should have been tempted to go at some
little length into the events which had produced them.
Those events affected not merely the tranquillity and
happiness of this country to which the notes referred,
but also the honour of this country, as being connected
with the general condition of Europe and the treaty of
peace which had just been celebrated. It appeared that
these notes had been presented to the Governments of
England and France by the plenipotentiaries of that
eouutry, which from its geographical position and poli-
tical associations made it deeply concerned in the matter,
with the view of drawing attention to the state of Italy,
and pointing out its general bearings upon other
European powers. These documents must be fully
known to their lordships and the public, as versions,
no doubt sufficiately accurate, had already been
published ; but at the same time it wag only
right that Parliament should be furnished with authentic
copies of them. Considering the length of time which
had elapsed, it was highly probable that answers had
been returned to these notes, and it was of equal impor-
tance that Parliament should be put in possession of the
answers which had been given to questions of such gra-
vity. Whether discussion on the matter was desirable
would, of course, greatly depend upon the tenour of the
documents themselves, but he hoped the necessity for
such a discussion would be avoided, though he could not
help feeling that the opinion of Parliament must bemade
to have its weight in the matter, unless it could be satis-
feetorily cleared up. He wished to ask if her Majesty's.
Government were prepared to lay on the tai le the notes
of the 22d March and lfith April, presented by the Sar-
dinian plenipotentiaries at Paris to the English and
French plenipotentiaries, together with the answers
which might have been gives to those notes.
The Earl of CLA.RENDON—I feel that I owe some
apology to your lordships' house for not sooner laying
these notes on the table ; but, perhaps, I do not attach
quite so much consequence to their production as ray
noble friend seems to do, as they have already appealed
in the newspapers. With respect to the answers to them,
I and the French plenipotentiaries came to the agree-
ment that as we had so entirely discussed the whole ques-
tion viva voce at repeated interviews with the Sardinian
plenipotentiaries it was unnecessary to send any written
answers. The first of these notes, a copy of which I
shall presently lay on the table, was, in fact. a simple
request on the part of Sardinia that the question of the
state of Italy should be brought before the Congress as-
sembled at Paris, and of course the best alswer to that
was the doing the thing asked, and the Italian question
was brought before the Congress. The second note re-
presented that the conclusion the Congress had come to
was not satisfactory, and invited further discussion. It
was of course necessary that the Sardinian plenipoten-
tiaries should place something on record, in order that
on their return home they might give an account
to the chambers of what they had done, and that
was the main object of the note ; and, as Count Cavour
gave me and the other power: to understand that cer-
tain measures would be adopted for carrying out the ob-
ject which he had in view, it did not appear necessary to
send an answer to the second note. It has since come to
our knowledge, however, that the Sardinian Government
wished to have some written record of the opinion and
feelings of her Majesty's Government upon the question
of the foreign occupation, and the desirableness or neces-
sity of putting an end to it. I had no hesitation in com-
plying with that wish, as I could only repeat on paper,
in the name of her Majesty's Government, that which we
had said in Paris. We accordingly made such an answer,
and aeopy of it will be laid on thetablo with the two notes.
It certainly may be necessary before Parliament separates
to have a discussion upon Italian afla;rs, but it may also
be injurious to raise it at the present moment, because
your lordships must remember we are not the principal
power to act in this question, as the armies now occupy-
ng the Italian territory do not belong to us. It is only
Austria and France that can take measures for with-
drawing the troops who have so long occupied the terri-
tory ; but before they do so they
,are bound to take care
that such a state of things has been created as to render
the presence of the troops no longer necessary, I can
say this much, then, without going far beyond what I
have authority to state, that it is the fact that both Go-
vernments are sincerely desireus of withdrawinf., their
armies, and they are occupied at this moment in prepar-
ing to do so.
The papers were then laid on the table , and their lord-
ships adjourned at a quarter past 7 o'clock.

• HOUSE OF COMMONS.--cnsTEnDAY.)
AMERICA. _

Sir 'E. B. LYTTON;IS,,;I& motion for the ad-
journment of the house to-morrow, ha should ask a
question of the noble lord with respect to our r.:dations'
with the United States.

EDUCATION OF OFFICERS OF THE ARMY•

On the order of the day fur going into committee of
supply,
Mr:S. HERBERT-said he had to thank the noble
lord the member for Iladdingtonshira (Lord Echo) for
allowing him precedence for the purpneeof bringing for-
ward the subjectof which he had given rE,tice. lie would
Just state shortly the reasons which hal induced hicn to
adopt this course, which was not strictly regular, of
bringing forward in camtnittee with the civil estimates
motion having reference to the army. The !Louie would
recollect that at the commencement of the se-sion esti-
mates of the expenditure of the year were laid on the
table, which were based on the supposition that the war
would corrtinne. Since that time a supplementary esti-
mate had been laid on the table, in which much smaller
sums were asked for, but there was no revised detailed
estimate, showing in what items reductions had bean ef-
fected, hat items were omitted and what items increased.
The estimates which had been brought before the house
in the course of the last two years had contained no
vote for increasing the means of education and instruc-
tion of officer of the army. Ho could well undErstand
that, while the war was at its height the Government felt
itself unable to inaugurate any change in this respect,
but he regretted to see in the estimates whi3b had been
drawn up since peace had been declared that no vote for

I the purposs which he had just referred to was comprised.
However, be hoped in the course of that evening to elicit
an expression of opinion on the part of hon. members
that some means ought to be provided, whereby it might
be placed within the power of officers to perfect them-
selves in their profession. His hope was that if in the
course of the debate he met with that support which he
trusted to obtain, the Government might be induced,
previously to discussing in that house the revised army
estimates, to propose a further revised estimate in which
a provision should be contained for carrying out some
plan for affording better means of education both for re-
gimental and staff officers. At that moment they were
in possession of a most favourable opportunity for creat-
ing, de novo, a peace establishment which should be free
from the errors of that which was too hurriedly called
into existence at the commencement of the great peace.
(Hear, hear.) ]Coming, then, to the question of the
education of officers, upon that point no conflict of au-
thority existed. He had with him the report of the
commission upon the subject, in which it would be found
that nearly every witness examined admitted the evils
which flowed from the existing system. Col. Adams
and Col. Prosser both spoke of the disadvantages which
arose from the want of theoretical knowledge cf their
profession which existed amongst officers ; and even Sir
5. Burgoyne, who, though a most accomplished officer
himself, was averse to a high state of theoretical educe-
t on, admitted that on some ,occasions, had the officers
of the line been more acquainted with the scientific por-
tion of their profession, many mistakes - which had oc•
curred might have been avoided. At the present day it
would not be necessary for him to combat the idea that
theoretical knowledge would stand in the way of a man's
practical efficiency and vigour. No" doubt there were
many highly intellectual men who were not of active
vigorous habits ; but let them suppose a man in good
health and of vigorous habits, would any one suppose
that by making such a one acquainted with the profession
to which he belonged, he would be rendered unfit for that
profession I Instead, therefore, of combating futile objec-
tions he would at once call attention to the present system
and the scheme which he proposed in place of it. At pre-
sent a portion of the youths intended for the army were
educated at Carshaltoa e the main body, however, re-
ceived their education at Sandhurst. The former place
acted as a feeder for the Royal Military Academy at
Woolwich, but at the latter the pupils remained until fit
for the receipt of a commission. What he proposed to do
with regard to Carshalton was to abolish it. With re-
spect to Sandhurst, he proposed, instead of making the
age of reception there 13, as at present, to fix it at 16
years of age. In the first place, by increasing the age
the number of persons here at one time would be dimi-
nished, and thus the institution would be made available
for more than could be accommodated at present, and
every officer in the army would have an opportunity of
participating in its benefits. The next advantage which
would arise from this would be that youths entering there
would be educated in the ordinary academies of the coun-
try, at the public schools, by private tutors and otherwise,
so that the conceited mannerism which was at present
complained of in young men coming from Sandhurst would
be got rid of, and in addition the state would be die-
charged of the duty of teaching children, a duty for which
in this instance there existed no necessity. At present
those officers coming from Sandhurst had made them-
selves unsuited by their mannerism, so much so that it
was considered amongst officers much better not to have
been there, and thus a premium, as it were, was held out
to ignorance. (Rear.) But the scheme which he proposed
would, he believed, rid the service of the evil, not only
in the manner which he had already intimated, but by
inducing all officers to pass through Sandhurst the cause
of the mischief would itself be extinguished. Again,
there was this absurdity in the system. The stan-
dard at Sandhurst was high, and the successful candi-
date obtained a commission without purchase ; but then
the boy who had interest, or whose father had money,
• did not try to succeed ; indeed there were cases of young
men who had been plucked at Sandhurst getting com-
missions immediately after. He proposed to abolish
Carshalton, and reduce the term at Sandhurst to 18
months or two years, making the curriculum more prac-
tical than at present. Those who showed the greatest
aptitude in geometry and mathematics he would then
send to Woolwich for the artillery, and those who showed
a talent for architecture and drawing, to Chatham • for
the engineers. He would in addition have a third school
solely for the cavalry, and this he would place at Maid-
stone, now our great cavalry depo+s He should propose
that no one be admitted to a commission in the army
who should not have passed the Sandhurst examination,
or some similar examination not at Sandhurst. He
would not make it indispensable that young men should
go to Sandhurst. He thought it better that they
saould have candidates from different schools, as
then they would have competition between
the masters as well as the boys. Then, again, to secure
perfect impartiality in the examinations he would not
have any Sandhurst professors on the board, but would
have an entirely separate board of examiners. When the
officer had at length got into the army, and for his pro-
motion, he (Mr. Herbert) would have ono uniform system
cf examination, according to the plan recommended by
the Duke of Wellington. He had proposed it in 1854,
and received the sanction of the ,Treasury, the Horse
Guards, and the House of Commons, but be regretted to
see that it had dropped out of the estimates for the
present year. He proposed that there should be a
board of examiners both for appointment and pro-
motion, • and that would, he believed, give full
employment to those qualified men. They would go
down to Sandhurst. and to London, Dublin, and Edin-
burgh ; besides which questions would be sent to the
stations, to he put by an officer appointed for the pur-
;ems,. Objections were made to this plan on the ground
that officers at out stations, or in the colonies, had
not the means of study at hand, bat he thought that
these objections might he easily obviated. He would
give the examiners good pay, and good rank on the kaff,
aed this, be thought, would give a great impetus to
officers to study. (Hear, hear.) Those officers would
also under his plan have the inspection of the regimen-
tal schools. He now came to the question of how they
were to deal wits the staff. In France they had a staff
school and a staff corps totally distinct from the rest of
the army, and the officers had, besides, to pass two
years in each branch of the army. But from the mo-
ment his term had expired, he' never again became a
regimental officsr. It was different in England, where
an officer was taken from his regiment for the staff, and,
in five years, sent back again. During the campaigns
of the Duke of Wellington nearly every officer passed
the staff. The Duke of York established a staff school,
and that school had trained some of the beat men in the
army. But the course of education was better then
than now, erhen we had more scientific and less military
teaching. The whole establishment cost but 5,0801. a-
year, showing at how small a sum additional efficiency
could be secured. One great object he had in view in
attempting to re•open the staff schools on the principle
lie proposed was, to infuse more professional spirit into
the army, which could not be done if we followed the
French system, and removed the staff officer perma-
nently from regimental service. He proposed to fix the
staff school at Farnham, which had the advantage of
being close to Aldershott, thus leaving more space at
Sandhurst for the juniors. He would require that each
officer seeking appointments on the staff should have
served a certain time in each branch of the service. He
thought one year would be enough. There was an
absurdity in the present system that almost surpassed
belief. An officer seeking appointment on the staff
went to Sandhurst to
.qualify himself, having previ-
ously been obliged to serve four years at home or
three abroad. But, then, if a man got a nomination
to the staff, no examination was necessary. • (Hear,
bear.) Therefore this absurdity arose, that you did not
i require fur the staff itself that which was required from
men who were preparing themselves for the staff. He
proposed to do away with military education before the
age of 16, and that there should be one uniform exami•
nation. Ho proposed to remove the senior department to
Farehaae and to make it more practical and military.
Hay ng communicated a few details, the right hon. mem-
ber concluded by urging the adoption of his pian on the
Govsrnment and the houses
' Mr. PEEL regretted that the right hon. gentleman
had not given him some previous intimation of his inten-
tion to bring forward this subject, as his not having.
done so rendered him (Mr. Peel) unable to follow biin
through his details. The right hon. gentleman com-
plained of the appointment of Government inspectors,
and' of their selection from arnong,t the War office
clerks. He was not aware that those inspectors
were incompetent for their duty. He admitted that the
Government had done less for the education of the offi-
cers of the army than they had done for the privates. In
France, in Switzerland, in Prussia, and in almost every
continental nation, means for the professional training of
the officers of the army fir: rued a part of the organised
and systematic institutions of the country ; but with
the exception of the academy at Woolwich, where young
men were prepared fur the Artillery and the Engineers,
and the College of Sandhurst, which provided only to a
very partial extent for the preparation of officers for the
line, we had no institution of a national character for the
education of the officers of the army. He concurred
with his right honourable friend that it was the duty of
the State to provide ample means to supply that amount
of knowledge which was neeessaiiy to qualify the offi-
cers of the British army to fulfil their duties eflici-
eiently, and that with that view the subject demanded
the serious censideration of the Government. And
wit'n regard to 'the
.staff appointments, he also agreed
with his right honourable friend that, as far as pos-
sible, they ought to be conferred on such officers as had
obest availed themselves of those means of education so
.r Ted to them. Whether personal or family connec-
tionsin nominating tc,
. could ever be wholly excluded from consideration
bat he.thought they
such appointments was questionable,
might fairly expect that those con-
eiderations should not be successful, except where the
equalp:of
qualifications were, if not superior, at least
professional
those of the ennpetinr, candidates. That the
cruseu
f military education had'suffered by the practice
r seos
to
of persons entering the army not to follow it as a profes,
sion, but merely as a source of amusement for a few
years, he admitted ; but 'whether that practice arose
from the purchase system he was net prepared to say.
His right honourable friend had spoken of a standard
of education to be attained as a qualification for
officers, to to be ascertained by examination, acee,
alter entering the army ; they could rise to the
second and third steps, but he doubted whether his
right honourable friend had fully calculated the (ma_
culties of fixing any such standard, tea ingredients of
which, before he 'pronounced any decided opinion, he
should like to hear from his right hon. friend. He should
not, how'ever, think it fair that a man who bad been en-
gaged on foreign or colonial service during his whole
professional life, without any opportunities of study,
should be required to pass the same examination as the
officer who had had the advantage of Chatham or Wool-
wich, and all the educational facilities which were attain-
able at home. Again, it should be remembered that
very many officers had risen to the highest eminence
without anygreat educational nip:firemen% and it would