The Sun.
London, England, 1802-12-16 00:00:00

1143

been
so misconceived was not the object of Lords.
un'his- side orthe question : their` wish-waS only,
that the-Rouse should pause until Minister's would'
condescend:to tread in the steps of their ancestors
upon similar occasions, and 'conform to the establish-
ed practice of Parliament. In every former instance
they requira information, and adequate explanation -
as to the reasons and cause's, always atcompanied' the
requisition.' As. things stood, they were abandon-
ed entirely -to conjecture ; and they might be
strongly inclined to think that some material
change had• taken place, when they recolleded
what- was passed about the close of last Session
as an,adequateEstablishment, and compared it with
what was demanded at present. The Noble Earl
then adverted to the recent occurrences on the Con-
tinent, the acquisitions to the territories of France,
and`the affairs of Switzerland, respeding which Mi-
nisters left the House in complete ignorance. He
repelled the idea, that the object of the,preaent con-
du et- -of the Lords who acted with him was a
Fhange of Ministers ; neither was it a. part of their
`stews to urge them to aVar : such insinuations were
unfounded ; their real objeEts were the honour and
security of the Country.. In the present_ instance he
insisted it would'be right-to afrird time to Mini_
sters. to follow the example of their ancestors upon
similar occasions.
,The Earl of D ARNLEY delivered. his senti,
il:Lits upon the various "to 'in discussion at some
ii--,1%-tl=--rre seemed inclined on the whole to approve
Iconduct of Ministers, bUte2cpreised his appre-
nlslens in strong language, at the great and in-
reasing Power of France, which, conjoined
with Russia, he was of opinion, could give Laws
1,10 the whole world, Great Britain excepted
heldwould support Ministers as long as they up..
neld the National Honour and provided for its
'security,ecurity. Authe smile time; he could not_
hold his tribute of applause to the charader of the
great Minister so often alluded to of late. His abi-
lities, integrity, and above all his-firmness, spirit,
and courage, were beyond any thing he could ex-
press. He then recurred .to the situation of France,
and the charader of the person at the head of its
Government, whose ambition he considered as far
from being satiated. One great object of his am-
bition, helaelieved to be, tee subjugation of this
counir. He longed to break open the,. 'doors of
'the Bank of England with his
,legion
and to plant the Republican Standard on the' Tower
Of London_ He would freely speak his sentiments,
independent of Ministerial
considerations—he
deemed large Establishments requisite in the pre..
se"' -state' of the country, and as such, ,approved of
the ;Bill before the House.
Lord HOBART commenced a very able
.and
spirited answer to the Nnble Lords on the other side
of the question, liy'affirining, that the Honour of.
/he Country had, not been -sullied by' the
‘conduEt of
Flis Majesty's present-Ministers—Not one of them
would continue in Office, were they necessitated to
submit to any as which tended to sully the Nation-
al Honour. With respect to the immediate subjea
in discussion, he
.must expre;s his surprize at the
perseverance
candid and satisfaE
of Lords
in Opposition, .after the very
explanation given by his NOble
and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, in rite last
debate. He contended that the causes tor the Esta_
blishments thus called tor were of sufficient public
notoriety far Parliament to proceed upon. Nor
wa& that all, he could 'as effeaually contend, that
tile measures now under discussion were duly and
adequately 'adverted to in the Speech from the
Throne. In illustration of which position, his Lord-
ship read several striking extrads—and it was
to enable His Majesty to give eficed, in case of
necessity, to the language so delivered, that
the augmentations in question were deemed necessa-
ry, and for which, he must insist, the Royal Com-
munication had laid an adequate foundation : the
Ilarge of the Noble Lords, therefore,' that the
whole proceeding was rested on the ground of Public
llotoriety, was unfounded. Upon those principles
it would be necessary that His Majesty's Speech
should be accompanied by a geographical description
e'f France, and its Territorial Acquisitions ; and
a
also by Schedule of her Military Establish.
Inents. When the Noble Lords admitted they did,
not object to the extent of the Establishments,
ItPun what solid or substantial grounds then could
France
advance?— The Establishrhents existing: in
'lrance, were matter for serious consideration in
the discuslion of the subjea before them, and for
the information of the House. His Lordship read
some Extras from a recent Publication (we could
not coiled the title), wherein the Land Forces, Sec,
1)1 France, were :specified ; their power, by one
statement therein, was estimated at 495,600 men,
and he argued, that this, joined to the other con-
siderations, advanced in the course of the Debate,
were ample grounds for assenting to the Suipplies al-
ready voted by the House of Commons. His Lords.hip
then slightly adverted to s'ome occurrences which took
- I)l.ce abOut the period of the resignation of the late
Ministers, and argued therefrom in favour of his ge-
neral conclusions. He was duly convinced of the
4elicate situations in which Ministers were often
Placed, situation& which' sometimes rendered it as
necessary to withhold Explanation, as it may be
proper to give it in others. After adverting' to
40rne points connected with the general subject of
discussion, in some degree of detail, he drew in-
folerences therefrom, and adduced additional argu-
entss in favour of the immediate • progress of the

Lord CARYSFORT objeCted that there had not
ucen'sufficient-information laid before the House, to
authorize them to vote for the Supply demanded,
until more satisfatiory statements were made 'on
hi
part of His Majesty's Ministers. His -Lord-
P discussed at some- length the ,topics' which have
seen
already repeatedly urged respecting the relative
.Ituation of the Country, and observed that he could
tunt help doubting how far His Majesty's Mini_
ttl" were intitled to confidence, when he consider_
" the dangers to which the Country had been ex_
Posed during their Administration.
The Dnke of NORFOLK said, that when the
sioludua of
His Majesty's Ministers was arraigned
1 the manner it had been, he could not help advert-
td.gtd what had been their conduct}. They had taken
the direEtion t,f Public Affairs at a time whe,n the
-;tll°Lintry was placed in a critical situation, and was
gaged in a dangerous contest. They made a

Peace, which, if it_was not ex4etiy.phat was wished,
he was certain, met with the-`concurrence and
approbation- of nine tenths of the People of this
Country—of all, short, who were not led away
by motives of private, interest to, wish for a con-
tinuance of the War. Upon this ground His Ma-
jesty's Ministers should have his support, and he
thought they were perreftly justified in withholding
statements from that House, which under the pre-
sent circumstances it,Might not be proper to give.

Lord GRENVILLE said, , that there never had
been a greater perversion of the line of.argutnent
adopted by his. Noble Friends, than the statement-
which had been unintentionally; no doubt, made by
his Noble and Learned Friend (the LORD CHAN-
CELLOR). It was never the intention of himself,
or of his Noble Friends, to oppose the Supplies,
but it was merely a question as to time. , The op-
position was merely to the Order of the Day being
now read, in the 'hope that some communication
might, in the mean time, be made from His Ma.
jesty, with resped to the motives upon which "they
were called upon to vote the Supplies. His Ma-
jesty's Ministers had not thought proper to advise
His Majesty to make any'specific communication as
to the particular circumstances of the Country ; all
the information they had upon the subject; was am-
biguous and unsatisfadory. He 'had taken some
pains to search the Journals of the House for a cell-
tairy back, and.he had found it had been invariably
the pritaice, with the exception, perhaps, of a few
instances, which would make little in favour of His
Majesty's Ministers, that some specific grounds
had been stated to Parliament as to the particular
line of condua which they were called upon to pur-
sue. After the Treaty of Lisbon, the Peace of
Utrecht, the ,Treaty of Paris, and other events of
a similar nature, some information was imparted,
which served' as a clue to guide the Legislature with
respet to the relative situation of the CoUntry. In
the memorable Speech of GEORGE rite FIRST, im-
mediately after the accession of the House of Hano-
ver, it was stated, that the Peace' was insecure, and
that it was necessary to cement Continental Alli-
ances. In the present case, however, all the in-
formation given was vague and unsatisladdry.—
He did not wish hastily to oppose His.Majcsty's
Ministers, but he could not help thinking that
the return of the Right Honourable Gentleman
to power, who had so, ably presided over the
late Administration, was wanted, and that those
who -opposed his return were-guilty of a deep injus-
tice towards their Country. Large Supplies were
called Tor, but what was the difference in the situa-
tion of the Country ? The hostility of France to-
wards this Country was the same, whilst her power
was increasing ; and that was the case, why should
it have been stated, as it had been at one time since
the Peace, that ,an Establishment of 30,000 Seamen
would be suffieieur, when at the present moment a
-larger 'Estahlishatent was called for ? The Miii.
tary and
,Naval Establishments inow called for,
•were, it was stated, as great as the faculties
of, the Country were enabled to provide for,
but it should be recolleded that proposing these
Establishments, was'like erecting a darn, vvilz!l was
not to exceed a .certain- height, against a torrent
;TAW, u•..,; tnntinu4ly ; cint-anigta:
be able to stern the stream to day, buyo-morrow
the torrent would increase, and its impetuosity re-
ceive an additional force. We were called upon, it
was stated, to execute the Treaty of Amiens,
whilst France had ailed in defiance of it : surely,
however, it was necessary to pause before we de,
livered up the Cape and Cothin, which were the
keys of the East Indies ; and Malta, which was the
key of the Mediterranean. The Cape and Cochio
had it seemed been already , surrendered. As to
Malta, information was still wanted, whether it was
retained as a matter of policy with respect to the
general relations of this Country,' or whether
only until certain stipulations, agreed upon
in the Treaty of Amiens, were fulfilled ;
Stipulations which, he contended, ought never to
have been entered into. He could not 'con-
ceive, however, that Malta ought to be the subjea
of a separate and distina question—it ought only
to be comprised in the general question, respecting
the relations ,between this Country And France. He
had the highest respea for his Noble and Learned
Friend (the LORD CHANCELLOR), but he was fully
aware, that the numerous avocations of his Noble
and Learned Friend, precluded him from attending
very minutely to the Political Situation of the Coun-
try : he could only in this. way, account for the
opinion delivered by his Noble and Learned Friend,
Which he considered as very fatal to the Country,
that we must have large Establishments, in order
to be upOn our guard against the designs of ,France ;
-and that we must trust to time for an ameliOration
of our situation. He well knew, that much was to
be allowed to events, but he could not help observing
there was not much probability at present that the
power'and predominance of France would decrease;
and when it was stated that the Establishments now
required were as great as the faculties of the Coun-
try could•bear, it was informing France of the ex-
tent of our resources, of which she might with faci-
lity take advantage. He wished it to be thoroughly
. Understood,. that he had no-desire for War ; he
only wished for a firm and. vigorous condua on the
part of His Majesty's Ministers.
The LORD CHANCELLOR explained.

Lord PEEHA Al said, he should take up the time
of the House for a very few minutes. As to what tae
Noble Lord (Lord GRENVILLE) had advanced r!
speeting Cochin, that Noble Lord might be in pcs-
session of some information upon the subjen, bit
certainly His Majesty's Ministers had received ro
intelligence of its surrender. He disclaimed the
Opinion advanced by the Noble Lord, as that cf
His Majesty's Ministers,
,that they intended to
trust merely to time, as it was certainly their in-
tention to take advantage of every circumstance
.upon the Continent, which could Contribute to the
security of this Country. The Noble Lord had
alluded to a supposed misrepresentation of the
sentiments of the Noble Lord's Friends in the
course of the night, as if it had been stated that
they wished to refuse the Supplies ;, he confessed he
could, not see much difference between stopping, and
arresting the, Supplies. It had been obseryed by
the Noble Lord, alluding to a Statement made in
another place, that a much smaller Peace Esta-
blishment bad been originally naer.tioned, than

that which was, now. called for;. but it would be-
recolleBed that the statement alluded 'to only im-
plied, that the number of Seamen wanted would not
be less than io,coo,' not that they would not ex-
ceed.tbat number. The Noble Lord had expressed
much friendship for His 'Majesty's IVliniSterS ; but
certainly 'whatever-might te. 'the-expressions of the
Noble Lord and his Friends,
.the efFea of their opi-
nions went to the removal of those Ministers ; and
if the Noble Lord:and his Friends really held those
ojinions whiCh they'had advanced, it was certainly-
their constitutional Duty to endeavour, according
to the- forins of Parliament, to procure, the removal
of those Ministers:-.-a step which he should cer-
tainly take if the Noble, Lord and his Friends were
in Office ; and he held (he same opinion. of .them
which. they seemed to entertain of himself and his
Noble'and Henourable Colleagues, With respell to
the Call made by. the Noble Lord for the return of -a
Wight Hon. Gentleman intooce, he should only say,
that neither himself nor his colleagues opposed' any
obstacle to that Return. He.did not exaCtly see the
propriety of discussing the.,vafious. topics which
had been mentioned that evening upon the, present
question, as the Bill .before .the House was merely
the first step of the-Supplies, and related. solely to
the ordinary Service of the Country. He thought
the discussion which .had been entertained, would
have come with more propriety when other measures
more extensive in their nature had come before the
House.

• Lord MINTO rose, and was entering•into some
discussion respeding Switzerland, when he' was in-
tcrrlTted by • - •
. ,
3—rd THukLow, who spoke to Order, coneeiv-
ini sui:i.ft alluded to by the Noble• Lord to be
irr:l'2vant to the business before the louse.
tord,MINTo. said a few words more upon the
same subjed, and concluded by declaring his in-
tention to bring forward a Motion after the Recess,
for the purpose of obtaining the necessary informa-
tion respelling Switzerland.
The Order of the. Day Was then read, and the Bill
passed through a. Committee..
The other. Bills on the Table were forwarded in
their respective stages.—Adjourned at half past
eleven o'clock.

ROUSE OF COMMONS.

WEDNESDAY, DEC. 15.

THE SPEAKER stated, that
.Robert Hill, one of
the capital Burgesses of Malmsbury, who had pre-
sented a Petition complaining of an undue Election
for that Borough, had not entered into the recog-
nizance prescribed by Law.
A MeStage was received .froni the Lords, stating
that their Lordships had agreed to the Irish Mi-
litia

Mr. CARRY moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to reEtify a clerical error in the Ad of the 42d of
His present Majesty, respeeting the Irish Militia.
Leave was given to bring in the. Bill.
The Mutiny. Bill was read a second time.

The SECRETARY at WAR saitt-,. it tvas'not hip
intention to propose. tn, .pas 6 thiS Bill 'tin after the
r,-,cci.a :y3 - tr, prcp.vie so e . altera-
tions which appeared to him to 'be necessary under*
the present Establishment of the
then begged leave to call the attention of the
House to 4 mistake which appeared in an Ad of'
last year, respeEting the' Militia. In the former
Militia Ads it was thought proper to exempt
licensed Dissenting Ministers from being ballotted
for the Militia, but it was found that' many persons
took advantage of this indulgence, and took out
licences as Dissenting Ministers immediately, before,
a general ballot, to save themselves from being
drawn for the Militia. In order to prevent this
.it was proposed last year . that no Dissenting
'Teacher should he exempted, unless he had
been licensed at least a year. before the ballot.;
but by some mistake it was inserted in the Ad, that
no such person should be exempted who had been
licensed within a year before the ballot ; the conse-
quence of this would he, that it would be. necessary
for DiSsenting Ministers to take out a licence every
year. He sherefore moved for leave to bling in a
Bill to amend that part of the At of last year.—
Leave 'given.
The SECRETARY
.at WAR gave notice, that
he should, after the Recess, move for leave:to bring
in a Bill for the Pay and Cloathing of the English
Militia. It would be necessary to alter, the usual
Bill in some particulars, such, as that the Militia
should becalled out to be exercised for twenty-eight
days, instead of twenty-one. He begged. leave,
before he sat down,- to notice a circumstance which
appeared to him to deserve the attention of that
House, and of the Coun;ry. ..He understood, that a,
Society had been formed, or was forming, the ob-
jed of which was to extend its influence over the
whole Country, and to prevail upon People to stib-
sCribe their money, in order to secure themselves
from being drawn for the Militia. It was true,.
that plans of a similar nature, had been long ago
adopted, bur they were confined to London and Mid-
dieser, or to particular Distrids, and, therefore,
it was, perhaps, not' so injurious ; /but it was doubt-
ful whether the system was not at all times objec-
tionable. There however could be no doubt but that
such a Society as the one to which he was now
alluding would, if persisted in, call for the atten-
tion of this House. It was, the understood, called
the " Western Society," and the plan was to take
from poor 'people 14,i. or 15s. a year; in order _that
substitutes might be found for them, if they were •
drawn for the Militia. • it certainly was necessary
to guard the Public against what might possibly
be altogether a swindling transadion, because there
was no security that when the Agents of this So.
ciety got the 'honey,* they would afterwards per-
form their engagements :,they might run away, and
poor people be thus defrauded of their money. But
even if this Society should- perform, its engage-
ments, it would be departing from the system of
the Militia LaWs, which was, if possible, to have"
the Militia of each County formed of the inhabi-
tants of that county ; whereas this Society would
be obliged ,tb provide substitutes from the refuse of
the Metropolis.' He thought it necessary to throw
out these observations, to,call the attention of the
Houle to the subjeft, and lie hoped that no further
I interference would be necessary.

Mr. BußpoN presinteci. a PetitiOn,frorp South
Shields, against the Tonnage A6t.
The committee on the Corn Intercouise Bill was
put off till to-morrow. •
The Irish Militia Bill,was read a second time,
was ordered to be committed on Friday. ,
Genirat G ASCOY NE wished to ask a question
of Miniiters; which was of great importance to.
Mercantile People, vii. whether it was intended to,
renew the Bill which was near expiring, respeding,
the Tride to Malta?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said;
he was not apprized till
,a short time before he came
into 'the House; that"tlie-Aa in queStion was so near
expiring,,..and therefore he
,had not had an oppor,.
tunity of examining into the subje6l, but he Would.
give the Hon: Member an answer to:morrow.

11Tr. KINNAIRD rose to move for an Address
to His" Majesty, 'praying that he would be pleased
w order tile Patents constituting the Admiralty and'
the Navy Board: - The ohjeet of his Motion was,
to ascertain. Whether these Boards had the Power to
coned 'the abuSes which were said to exist, or
whether' it was necessary to pass an Aft of Parlia-
ment to give the'ro fresh Powers. That very con-
siderable abuses had existed, he, had no. doubt, and
the Country was much indebted to them by whom
those abuses were 'deteded and .suppressed. But
when an application was made' for an AR
of Parliament to grant additional Powers, it
was necessary to ascertain whether the old
Jurisdiefion was or was not competent to the
suppression 'of these .abuses. - Upon this subject,
there appeared to exist a considerable difference
of opinion, An Honourable Admiral' stated in a
former Debate, that the Board in question did pos-
sess sufficient powers, and that assertion was after-
wards contradiaed by a Gentleman in Office.-L•
These two Gentle Men were at issue upon the sub-
jeCl, but it was of great importance to the House to
have the fat ascertained, and, the only way that
occurred to him of ascertaining it, was, to produce
the documents for which he proposed to move.
Whenever the Legislature, was called upon to inter-
fere upon any subjea, they ought not to proceed
upon common report, or upon assertion, when better
grounds could he had. It was not long ago since
a notoriously large Peace Establishment was voted,
upon Ouch the same kind of ground that a Parish
Vestry would vote an additional Watch, or a Jus.
tice of Peace would commit a thief, viz. that it was
notoriously necessary. (There was a general cry ,
Of hear! hear!) He thought the Noble Lord at
the Head of the Admiralty,' was entitled to the
thanks of the Country for the reforms he had
introduced, and if any' other Hercules should-arise
and attempt to clean out other Augean Stables, he
would give him his cordial support. He concluded
with moving the AddreSS to His Majesty.
The itITTORNEY GENERAL said, he did not
know whether to oppose the Motion or not, .be.
cause, if a Gentleman had a curiosity to see these
Docunients,- it certainly was an innocent curiosity,
- and there could ..be no harm in gratifying it. But
he was not aware of any use that could be made of
if they were, -produced. The Hon. Gentle_
`man had stated, that his reason for calling for these
Parents, was to kilaiir whether the Admiralty and
.the. Navy Board possessed sufficient powers to cor-
re&-existing Abuses, withoUt the intervention of
an A.t`..l of Parliament ? .But even if, upon the in-
: spedion of the, Patents, it should appear that those,
pOwers were given, yet, if from the different im-
portant; avocations of these Boards, they were un-
able to a6l upon them, still it was necessary to put
the business into other hands. The -Navy Board,
'certainly, possessed the power to administer oaths,
but that was not Sufficient ; they had not the means
of calling upon Contraaors, &c. and to institute
such inquiries as would be necessary to put. a stop tq
those abuses, which it was admitted, on all hands,
did exist.
• Mr. KINNAIRD eXplaiDed.

Mr. STURGES said, that if the Hon. Mem-
ber who made the Motion had read the Bill before
the House, he would find that it granted powers,
such as.he was sure were not in the patents which
had been called for, and such•as he believed were
never before granted to any Board. It authorised
the Commissioners to send for and examine upon
oath,' not only the person who had any transaetions'
With him, but their heirs or representatives. This
seemed to him to be granting most extraordinary
powers, and such as could not be-produdive of any
good effeel.
• Captain MARKHAM said, that unless the powers
were granted which were contained in that Bill, the
objea which it was proposed to attain would be
entirely frustrated. The abuses which had been
deteEted were enormous : -he would state one small
one, to give the House an idea of the rest. A
perion in one of.the King's Yards had contraeled to
furnish casks, which were to be filled with -earth
and used as weights. The sum charged upon 'this
account. was rz6ol. Upon inquiring into the busi-
ness, it was found that the sum that ought to have
been charged was just 371. From this circumstance,
the House would be able to form some estimate of
the . extent of these abuses. The Board wished to
examine into the former accounts of this person, '
but he said he had no books, and all inquiry was
preluded.
Mr. SHERIDAN observed, that the discussion
had turned rather upon the Bill which was before
the House, than upon the Motion, and an Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. STURGES) had displayed great
dexterity in making his observations upon the Bill,
apply to the Motion for the Address. He confessed
he did not see any thing good or bad in the Motion,
but that, was no reason for agreeing to it. With re.
gard to What had been said about the powers given
by the Bill, he was of opinion that if they were not
iven, the Bill itself might as well be given up,
because such abuse's'as notoriously existed, cOuld,
not, be-got at by ordinary means.
Mr. H. 2DDINGTON rose to make a single
observation. It had been stated, that such powers.
had never before been given to any Board. This '
he was inclined to think was a mistake, for it would
-appear by a reference to the Statutes, that similar
powerS were given to the Commissioners for Au-
diting Public AcCounts, which was one of the most '
useful and important Boards in this Country.
Mr. COU RT EN AY said, he could easily believe
that those abuses did exist, because he knew iliac