The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 10.
NAVY ES I'IMATES.
On the motion for, that the Speaker leave the Chair,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that, as the Chancellor of
the Exchequer intended to make alterations in his
Budget, he should move that no votes be taken
until the intended alterations were stated.—(Hear.)
In 1848, the House would recollect, that after various
statements had been made respecting the estimates for
the Army and Navy, and Ordnance, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had consented to greatly modify the
amount of the expense. Ile did hope that a similar
course would be pursued on the present occasion. He
would only refer to the reports of former years, and
he thought that after the House bad heard the facts
which he had to state sufficient reason would appear for
an alteration in the plan now laid before them by the
Government. By a reference to those reports, he
found that in 1830 the Duke of Wellington,
the highest authority that could be adduced
on military matters, had for 138;954 men,
asked the country to greet 8,491,0571., less by
2,412,000/. asked by the Government this year, though
they only wanted 122,000 men. In the last year of
Earl Grey's Administration, in 1834, the number of
men proposed was 136 332 and the money 7,918,5931.,
less than the money asked for this year by
3 015,0001. It was also worth while to notice, that in
1635, Sir Robert Peel asked for 135,820 men, with a
sum of 7,146,9521., being 3,787,0004 less than the
money now demanded from the House. Ile would
now ask the House to remember that 3 000,000/. was
more than the amount of window-tax and paper duty,
and went far to meet the liquidation of the income-tax.
He trusted that the House ,vould never agree again to
the exorbitant increase which had been made in the
military establishment of the country. In his opinion it
was disgraceful. Talk of the Duke of Wellington's Go-
vernment, why that Noble Duke had set an example
to the present Government in the reductions he made in
the army, and no man in the kingdom knew better the
necessities of the country than the Noble Duke. The
HOD. Member ouacluded that no supply should be voted
before the amended Beget was presented to the House.
Mr. HUME thought the House ought to have some
explanation with respect to the estimates before they
went into a Committee.
Sir F. BARING said he should give the necessary
explanation when the House was in Committee of Sup-
ply.—(hear. hear.)
The SPEAKER then put the queetion that the House
should go into a Committee or Supply on the Navy
Estimates, and also the amendment of the Hun. Mem-
ber for Lambeth.
Mr. WILLIAMS declining to press his amendment
to a division,
The House resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.
Sir F. T. BARING said, that when he had to open
the estimates last year he found it to be his first duty to
call the attention of the House to a vote for a large sum
for an excess of expenditure occurring in former years—
an excess over the votes agreed to by the House. This
sum amounted to 211,0001. This had been rendered ne-
cessary by the coarse previously pursued during several
years, but it was his firmest intention, in conformity
with the opinions which he had long entertained, and in
conformity with the recommendations of the House of
Commons, so to frame the estunatwi as to prevent a re-
petition of such occurrences, and he hoped that that
would prove the feat time when such a proceeding would
be resorted to, unless, indeed, under the pressure of ex-
treme circumstances; for it appeared to him that no-
thing less thou absolute necessity justified any excess of
expenditure over votes. Those gentlemen who took the
trouble to look rot the japers seoiug forth the receipts
and expenditure for the current year would fled that he
did ant cell for a vote for excess. A certain sum had been
voted last year, and the actual expenditure was nearly
400,0001. under that. Although tlio financial year was
not yet comp'e:e, and the exact data had not
yet been famished, yet he was enabled to
state that there was reason t 3 expect a consider-
able surplus this year, comparing the expenditure with
the money voted. He mentioned that first, because he con-
sidered it to be of deep importance in a constitutional
point of view. It was most important that the House of
Commons should see what the full amount of expendi-
ture was likely to be. If they got the habit of voting
so much, and that the actual expenditure came to a
higher sum, and that arrears from excess of expenditure
had to be annually provided for, Parliament would
abandon its proper control over the public finances. He
repeated that he wished to mention this in the first in-
stance as he desired to call the attention of the House to
the modes in which estimates might be made up. There
were two modes of making up estimates.—(Hear, hear,
and cries of " Order.'') He said he should endeavour to
make himse!f beard as well as indisposition would permit,.
but he was labouring under a popular disease, which
somewhat interfered with the duty he had to perform.--
(Hear) There were two modes of framing estimates;
one was taking a sanguine view of the subject, and fixing
the expenses low; but in two years afterwards the evil of
such a plan always became apparent. The other mode
was to state the expenses high, so as to leave a consi-
derrble margin: with an assurance that there would be
more than enough for the demands of the service.
The latter was the course which he had taken, and it
would, he had little doubt, be found that the present
estimate was larger than the actual expenditure would be.
During the lest two years the actual expenditure had
been 700,000/. fot those two years below the vote which
Parliament had sanctioned, and, unless anything should
happen, and under ordinary circumstances, the actual
expenditure for the ensuing )esr would be within the
estimate which he now called upon the House to vote.
The first vote was the vote for the, men. He should pro-
pose the same number of men us last year. But the ac•
tual sum required for the payment of these men was
greater than last year, and he would explain the reasons
for this increase. With regard first to the number of
men, that. question it was for the Government to settle as
a Government, after a full consideration of the circum-
stances of the time. But in that House it was extremely
inconvenient to discuss this question, because it could not
be entered into without raising subjects which it was not
well for those in office to discuss, The amount of naval
force necessary to defend our commerce and our shores
determined the number of men required. Now the Go-
vernment were not disposed to look with jealousy to the
proceedings of foreign Governments, but it was impos•
bible to determine what was necessary for our own es-
tablishment without looking to the establishments of
foreign countries; and we had a sufficient proof last
year that a gallant, an able, arid intelligent people, not
far from our own shores, had not by any means ne-
glected their naval establishments and their naval power.
And those gentlemen who were at Cherbourg lest earn-
flier, and who partook of the pnid to English
visitors, !trust have come beck with toe conviction that
the French were not quite satisfied to rest their naval
establi-dameres upon the Peece Congress (so we under-
stood the Right Roc GentlanaL). ct.iina,tes of
/835 and 1836 bad been referred to, but they hod al-
ways been considered as framed for e particular occasion,
and were not estimates upon which the country could
permanently rely.
Mr. WILLIAMS—I referred to 1834.
Sir F. T. BARING—The number of men voted in
1835 and 1836 was 26,500. The last French vote was
for 25,000, and when the House looked at the greater de-
mand for the naval force of this country for the protection
of our colonies and our widely extended commerce, as
compared with that of France, they would see that the
Awnber of meld PAO fm X 635 yrottici not t)e §4900

when a foreign Power had voted 25,000. The comport'
son bete( en the increase in our naval establishment since
1335 up to the
the 'Frorch navy durieg the same period, ought to be
wated to the ROMP. Ira 1835 the expenditure on se-
, present time, and the rate of increase in
count of the Fret ea navy was 2,549,2721.; in 185 L it was
4.284,9601., being an increase of 1,735,668/.
those aho referred to our estimates of 1835 as the step,
would not expect to find that enormous increase in
the proportionate expenditure upon the French navy'
With regard to the estimates for oar own navy, the ex
penses of the packet service deceived us. That large
expenditure was not included in the estimates of 1835.
The neve' exrafec;ifurc of 1835 was 4,271,6741'1 while
of
Probably
1850, 5,598,302/, being an increase of 1,326,628/e
,735,
as he had stated, the French increase had been 1
The fart that the vote for the wages of the men Was
greater ta al last year arose from several causes. 10
the first place, some of the men were receiviog higher
Pa), as in the Arctic Expedition, where the men were
receiving deuble wages, and in some smaller veratels
indeed, a actual te 1 increased le of psY'
they were receiving an increase. There had teen'
Ina ncy to an sea
Another cause of the increase was the new rrange;
meat with regard to victuelling Last year be obtained
the sanction of the House to ah.alteration in the practice
with regard to grog. This alteration had led to an
&
ditioual expense, but it had had the effect of transferridesng
a charge which had beretef ,re belonged to tbe ai
two;
ing department to the charge for wages, which
seemed larger than in forme4. years. The liberal Out;
mutation tor spirits bad beets accompanied with set
other changes, one being an increase of pay, end the
being the peer
other, of more importance in the vote,
scale of Nactuallina, to the navy. The result had heart
a con-iderabfe improvement in the system of PeYreeni;
and [Lao in the vies Ladling:, svlach brought the aeaEt.le
much nearer in both respects to the merchant sell:
arid to the condition of the seamen in other nalle,.o
He sincerely beB"vrd it would be a great benefit to bbd
rn reliant service to prosecute that system. Ile aboso
been toll that this was a difficult question, yet iris' by
erraegement had bet n received in a frielidlY SPlrl..ed,
Farliement, and also by those immediately concern ,
(The Right Honourable Gentleman, who spoke iltst;
very low and indistinct voice, was here that
Hume, and other Members who sat behind him, ~,
they "could not hear a word.") The information no
had received from the commanders-in-chief °lb
that they had reason to he ery ell satisfied olef
the new arranements. They althat the arnonnt_o
sat Ow'
the higher
punishments
had diminished in conseg . ace
So far as experience had gone, therefore, the exprle"vt
of the Admiralty with regard to the new arrangesieeeat
assured by .
relative to the grcg was satisfactory. Upon the "%ere
votes the Admiralty and the scientific bran tactual
there
..rau.
was no diminution. In the Admiralty there vats° b „jce.
increase arising from the addition in the time ef
ewe'e' set'
YetN. this increase was in reality an advantage to fora
'lce, bi cause a diminution under this head arose
beex,
the superannuation of the older clerks. It would
cost
by superannuating half-a-dozen clerks, to reduce th„iia
of this department, because these superannuatione 7010
appear among the civil allowances, where theYerieiteg
much more than counterbalance any advantagy- ha
ii
from the decrease in the present vote. IrerYle/lople
retired during the last year, and that washed tbeheeotani
reason why the Admiralty establishment tar and
more expensive. The vote No. 4, for the Wg'sresent
Record-office of Seamen, did not appear in tbne Pa'rd of
estimates, having been transferred to the mil:00W
Trade. This vote would appear in the Inisee,l4-6991,
estimates. lie now came to vote No. 6, of 1" 'etaer
fur her Majesty establishments at home -"''s There
words
for the Expenses of the dockyard!' the Pre•
was a reduction of 15,000/. in the expenditure in a bees
sent estimate; and considerable reductions hp
sent alit-
going on during the last few years. The 'Mob% fee
pourers in factories, &c., including hired worknl,' they
13,214 on April 1,
in
nere 12,862, being a reduction of 2,352 hire
oeyef
ex-
the dockyards. With regard to this part of ed up,
penditure he believed that unless anything tafiallitirtbear
1848; on the Ist of March, 16aLOitreo
the Government would be able gradually tomll;lettlesteoPf
reductions in these establishments. But he
uponbu i 1 gloater saving with regard to the exesi, 8,
ding ships, and he would come to the votes Toe.
910, and 11, which related to the building °.l soli
i., The reduction in these items for the year 1851;`09 tbsn
ie, as compared with the year 1848-9, no 'e r astir
,256,2711. But the actual expenditure in the lattte esti.
:vas somewhat greater than in the votes, While tylea the
buiding
antes of the ensuing year would be wrong -pop for
other side. The reductions 'bade in the ebeergdoriag
ships had been upwards of one-thirua lower
th el last two years. The vote for storea Was of
than it had been for a 1841reat number 01 .t-' was
The vote was less by .806/. than, „I' er for
last year, and the vote had been getting ei?.. spy
a number of years. He should not
eelal7,o
th store
credit if it were effected by leaving
comlete, bat he had reason to believe that th.asel fie
were as well able to meet the demands of the, aesitee'
ilthey needed to be, and as they had been for .`°- re
and
any reduction which had been effected wasyore'
Thel,rwould not have to be made up in future y ane:l„
There was a reduction of 41,450/. in the "1- °on '''
works. T'had fallen
wow
pee dead weight, or half-pay
about 28,0001. The more ships there'were in c'; and,
sion the fewer officers there were upon its!fle-I;tteliv
ons the other hand, if there were few ships 111aftion of
ion the half-pay would be larger. But ad
this
t1i90,n0591 had taken place in the half-pay, on: :ae ti,,'-
gr_r.e. ual l y going on. The increase of the u'" •
for the packet
vcrnrnorttpacket service arose from the alive,: - uracatel
to give the. means of additional eoo3lncoartie ce
to the
the -ercantile into rest. They had in the
serve also.
0.
yearm made provision for the post 00ee, filand else,°'
the
wLh western coast of emerica and the Bravo, •-e!, fro.-
D, , the Cal';' of Good Hope, by steam-less that el:
l' 1) mouth, He could not, therefore, suPP°se e eselte;
thoush 45,0001. additionel was required for 11,11 lie the'
a,rvice this) ear, any objection would be 111 s eoditste
on the part of the peer • d e%Pe it /30g
IC. That weren't' op- r.
had taker,place I fir the purpose of conanaerce,; ..., no
fur those military services for which the other
The net
raee; with
tionc of the votes were appropriated.
in
(the estimates for the ensuing year as 111313Ps areater
lia! fort wits 181,0931., which would have been 1:1• iOaP
eit he , • ' edditions to the sailors' pay and Pre, f tbsse
If it were not for the increase in consequence'
quart
alteration; he might have had a diminution of n qbear)'
a(jjearifor to
ofH a million compared with last year.
He had now been connected with the AdmirealtYwas sat,
years, and the Committee would not think he aiist"'
lag wrongly if he stated the result of his adn'lht tslts
um. He was anxious to do so. not that he teigrale, bet
the credit of the reductions that had been 01te WO
because it was due to the House and the countri„ aarttyra
the real truth, as inaccurate reports had Staasts;
(Hear) He did not look to the amount of be
any given year. The real criterion was that' e;salt iale7
penditure. The actual expenditure for tueirar Wow,
could not be given with exactness, because thel 0 were 0-
',lot tees inmate until the 31st of March; beteaWld °esabe
near that day that he had no doubt he eallB4B-9 ' fis
7ve9ry far wrong. The actual expenditure 01;50.51 1:/,
55,000/.; the actual expenditure eff l'- 9.stral
.r 1,5, bed
6,362,5001.; which was a reduction 01 ca ienaae
It he deducted a part of the p dittire ,-,13,,r-OFP"-;
been
transferred, viz., for courtsex- eannd Iteg's"idarine
92,5004, he found that the reduction effeete-apoe‘h:
.his two years of office had been 1,500,0004 lea,s ha reae
expenditure of 1850.51.—(Hear,
hear.) a/0 000
think, was 'not a small sum to have fel:ll°e dide,ll°
branch of the public service.—(Hear, heard
fie be.-11
wish to compare himself with .
who
bad gone
00304
him at the Admiralty but 'hose and ee°1:1,100e.
as the able sir aeri
administration of th ' -
',l Right Hon. Gentleman 1/4 - P
late ,
Graham), under,. the Adnainistration of the
_ci eidoe.
Grey, w.
,i 0
~,....ea often referred to in terms of deseloalistrie
to, be permitted to compare his a Ge°lll'
lion of
wan o two years with that of the Bight liorkocear
. , who had acquired a great reputation for 1110 tface
;meal
administration
of lle you to.
exenditure. .s.'"aaajaistf!„4.s
the whole of the Right
Hon. Baronet's su-r ' 18'' t
In 1830 the naval expoad 80°";,11° it "‘:,
the lii ',iture was 5 768.
eht Hon. Gentleman had red ears, duo.
4626,8001., so that in the course of four year°, 4 the
o course ;ded ever 8e
which the Right Hon. Gentleman bad pro' nOOl. A
Admiralty, he effected a reduction of 1,12.‘, sore-
Iri deducted the charges vvhichhad beeaatre°ol be
during his (Sir F. Basiegas) two years of etu°2e coal
would aao deduct a sum of 142,1021- fe...,1*.: eharg,ae
guard, which if he recollected rightlf, a-a•soiatrt-13
"Pan the- Customs. Durk the s"-lat s ie-
of his Right Honourable igriend tbeareaar° s S;001"
duction of 1,000,0001. in the naval cxPen""ileov; . 'L'ah;
sameh time he would venture to suggest expense
°n,ent
ers, when they heard the abuse that reap-tbe Pre" 01
Admiralty far profligate expenditure, ,pre / 500,00 .s
Government had reduced die 'd over the
the expel resided bad
and that during the two years he hasp thnu and
„eater
department the reduction had
everhnh before been made in the previous twe,e Jewel Pssaas
elieved that, by a little attention to tv'eo",,, in filtced
ing through their hands, they might be able in
years to reduce the estimates still further. be el"
tg that ,elf
with some degree a
es doubt at the attetDP- „v We,- -$
recommended in other quarters to redee°l4.t of P.',
and very suddenly the n 1 f An attetee as 0111'
e ava orce. d
the result
ewe
p;
kind was made a few ,
his Right Han. Friend tahres ago' a.nCh ncellor ofit'v 100
chequer, when be was Secretary of the Admirn't/t-ii ia Is
to defend the course of the Government' setbei bad
very able speech, and his defence was. not thatare for
thato
spent lees, but more than their predene's- as
navy, fur the charge against them then Ras pep
they had cut down the naval force too touch' becleer'
he (sir ii,. BariN.,
vl..
~,,t5) as Chancellor ot la ~ ebtoee,o
the late Sir P
ee reel used to observe that tne" ectettat
had increased
very much, and held out soma e:cP rone '
t_T .03 toi
of reducing th
~, ; but when the Bight raon•.„,,g 11
carne into office, although he believed an atteimre tura
thede to reduce the naval estimates, it soon tookhe aataqe
of a,e wayi and in 1845 they began again t a. Pl 9,
Isere increase in the ex enditure of the 011/L, aaga
thought these ups and downs Pin the finances of
teat deo'
were not politic.—(Fleur,) He had had no gbet h:
of abuse, and had not gained mach reput.ti,7„ tbr
believed that these who came after him woul° leeee'
a considerable reduction of expenditure bed Lee''d the
and that at the came time the establishtneWie, yea
country had been kept up in as full nod goohe Davi
of efficieecy art ever. The administration of tt AOr
had been oeadeeted upon sin ecumenical, but la)
bad hoop
gercily- ea stern; nod at the same time there "00000
much improve 'malt in the condition of the earia Wes
sailor—(Llear)—rot a cheep process, but One ti, asre:
ne flails allvaatage now, and would, he believ" boa/
afier be ot'gveat service to the navy.--(gear';ve 11C
The packs t service had also been exteaded to g' gear)
eummodation to the commerce of the countrY ben
—and those lines of communication which 11" ad tle,
proposed by himself and his Right Hon. Frielo dir
Chancellor of the Exchequer, when they wers 0 the
Arent offices, bad been increased and extended Isight
estimates he now submitted to the House. That'. refit
lion. Baronet then concluded by movie g that tr o
her of men voted for the naval service of l'e
1661.2 be 39,000.