The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-29 00:00:00

THE

an annually decreasing charge. This year 237 officers had
died; while the applications to be put on list were only 126.
The next vote was the foreign half-pay. Last year it
was 42,200/. ; this year it was 38,9931., showing a decrease
of 3,2071. This arose from the death of officers and officers'
widows; and the fund was one to which there could be
no addition made. After this came the widows' pensions,
which last year were 126,536/, and this year were only
12 ),7171., being a decrease of 3,8191. Eighty-five widows
had 1 een removed from the list since that period. Then
came the compassionate list, which showed a decrease of
2,9001. After this came the charge for Chelsea and
Kilmainham Ihspitals, which was last year 35,7561., this
year 35,4161., being a decrease of 3431. only, notwithstanding
what had been stated by the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Portarlington on the previous debate on going into Com-
mittee. The next vote was one of the largest in this branch
of the estimates—namely, that for the out-pensioners. Last
year it was 1,233,7111.; this year it was 1,233,0501. He
had always found the deduction for casualties to be over-
stated in respect to this vote; and he had reduced it this
year by 5,0001. The last vote on the li,t was that for super-
annuation allowances, upon which there was a decrease of
2,5001. This made the total decrease on the non-effective set-
vice of the army. for the yea-, equal to 30,5331. ; or, putting
the effective and the non-effective together, and comparing
ti,;em with the same in the last year, the saving would be as,
follows :—Last year they amounted to 6,019,3971.; this year
they reached only 5.9'5,345!., being a decrease of 93,452/.
which, with the additional day's pay —namely. 12,0001., gave
in all a difference equivalent to 105,000/.—(llea-.) These,
generally, were the votes he should propose to the House ;
but he ould not quit the subject without instituting a coin-
parison between the army expenditure and efficiency of the
present year and that of the year 1835, so frequently quoted
in discussions on the estimates. It would be seen from this
comparison that while the number an 1 efficiency of the army
was increased, the expenditure was less than in that year.
Taking into consideration the whole military expenditure in
both years, this was the result :
In 1835-6, cost of army service
„ cost of militia service..... 218,851

a
zweheque. in 1796. Although the money was levied by a 1 The SPEAKER having put the question that he do leave
Poundage it was repaid to the soldier in another way. the chair,
Mr. REYNOLDS said the Right Hon. Gentleman had dealt Mr. HUME intimated his intention to divide.
with the question in a very ingenious way. He could not deny I The gallery was then cleared for a division ; but none took
the charter under which the hospital was founded, but he place.
stopped the supplies, and starved the institution to death, On our re admission we found
fie did not think that the Secretary-at-War had any right Mr. DISRAELI on his legs. He said he did not think
to put a veto upon the admission of pensioners. He believed that there was any understanding given by the Government
the institution was extremely popular, and that the Iri h that the Budget would be brought forward on Monday next.
soldier looked to that asylum with hope and confidence. It would no doubt be satis'actory if the financial statement
The movement was not dictated by economy -it was one of was made on Monday • but the Government had only pledged
the stes towards a eneral system of centralisation.- (Ilear, themselves to bring it'forward at an early da.
hear.)p It was another attack upon the honour and nation- Mr. HUME said, although he and severyal of his lion.
ality of Ireland. He hoped the vote of to-night would teach Friends were under the impression that the statement was
the Right Hon. Gentleman not to commit this act of ag- to be made on vlonday next, under the circumstances, he
gression on the Irish people. would not persevere in his opposition.
Sir H. VERNEY said the arguments of the Right Hon. The House then went int Committee of Supply.
Gentleman applied as much to Chelsea as they did to Kil- ARMY ESTIMATES.
tainham. lie deprecated the introduction of national dis- Mr. F. MAULE then rose to bring forward the army esti-
tinctione and jealousies, but agreed with the previous mates. He seal after a considerable interval of debate,
speakers that the attempt to do away with this hospital which he confessed he did not anticipate on this occasion, it
would be most offensive to the feelings of the people of Ire- was now his duty for the fifth time to ask the House to vote
land. The Irish soldier was entitled to have his feelings that portion of the supplies which was necessary to meet the
rensuited, es be believed they comprised nearly half of the expenditure of the army is this country. lie was quite
British army. aware in former times that there existed a considerable con-
Mr. Hieefla denied that the insult was aimed at Ireland ; etitutional jealousy on the part of this House in respect to the
it applied to the system generally. The time was gone by standing asmy proposed to be maintained. But, whatever
f _or these institutions, and he would heartily join in a vote that might have been, it had of late years been suppressed by
fur putting down Chelsea Hospital. -( A laugh.) The whole a feeling of natural pride for the ,eryice, the conduct, anu
question was whether this este' lishment, supported by the discipline of the army of this great country. Ile had no
public mosey, was really useful and important. He believed wish to disparage the troops of other countries for the pur-
e was net- the soldiers could not he induced to go in, and pose of exalting those of our own, but he would make bold
,cheleea Hospital at the present moment could not be filled. to say that there was no army in the world more remarkable
Why, the eicatch soldiers never asked for any such separate for its discipline, more patient under privations, more
I, institutions. He hoped, therefore, the House would support gallant in assault, or more steady under fire than the
she Right lion. Gentleman in doing away o ith Kilmainham British army.-(Bear, hear.) Many might dispute
40spital. as to what ought to be the numbers of their
rMr. W. WILLIAMS said there were 175 men in the hos- army ; but there was no economist, he was sure,
Pital and forty-six officers to look after them, with seven however desirous to reduce their numbers, who would not
('- ;lenses and four assistants, so that the expense of the estab- willingly admit that no body of men could better conduct
eaahment bore a very large proportion to the amount of themselves iu times of peace, nor fitter perform their duties
senefit it c, referred.- (Divide.) in war, than the men composing the British army. - (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL wished the House to consider what With respect to the strength of the army, it had always been
Would be the result of the vote to which it was about to an object with her Majesty's G vernment to keep its
eonie. Two years ago the House had referred the naval and strength at the lowest possible point consistent with the exi-
. tilitary expenditure to a Committee, and there were many gencies of the service and the honour of the country ; and
questions upon which they had not yet reported. Surely upon the present occasion it did not appear to his colleagues
the House would think it would be advisable before it came or himself that during the ensuing year they could reduce,
tf:any decision to ascertain the reasons of the Committee consistent with the policy and the safety of the country, the
r its maintenance or abolition. He thought it was rather army to a smaller number of men than it was in the year
Premature for the House to come to a resolution that it was just passed. He therefore should propose to the llouse a vote
sot advisable to abolish Kilmainham Hospital, when they for 98,714 men, being within 414 mnn of the number voted
aad referred that question to a Committee of the House. He last year.-(Hear, hear.) Last year they had effected a
as surprised that the Hon. Member for Dublin should reduction to a certain extent, and he was then told that the
have made the question a national one. Why, for a long reduction he had made was confined to the men in the
Period of time there had been no separate army for England ranks, and that he had not taken care to make a proper-
and Ireland, and the interests of all members of the military tionate reduction of officers. This year he had to state, for
service were now completely identified. That 8,0001. more the information of those who made that objection, that the
eleuldebe spent in Dublin than if the hospital were abolished decrease of 414 men consisted of 101 officers, 26 non-
did.s not appear to him to be a matter of any importance. commissioned officers, end 288 privates. Amongst these
Dublin surely was not reduced to such a state of poverty as reductions - was a cutunelcy in chief or the 60th
to make that sum a matter of consequence. He agreed with Regiment, which had been held by the Duke of Cam-
the Hon. Member for Montrose that the time for these in- bridge-an appointment which the Committee ur -stairs
stitutions had gone by. Formerly they were looked upon as had been given to understand should be abolished. - (Hear,
eemfortable retreats, but since the system of out-pensions hear.) The force, then, that lie proposed to maintain was
had been established, they were much less valuable. The 95,714 men. That force was distributed into two parts-
Lumber of pensioners accommodated was comparatively namely, those who were serving at home, and those who
Mall, the great expense being occasioned by the governors were serving abroad. There were 50,980 serving at home,
and officers. He contended that the House had np right to and 31,116 were employed in the colonies. One great argu •
'?rejudge the question, and it was not, in his opinion wise, ment for maintaining such a considerable number of men at
when the Secretary •at-War wished to make reductions, that home-and it was one of the soundest arguments that could
the House should set its face against them, and give him abe used-was that it afforded the means for a constantly
lesson to teach him that his economy and reductions were well-regulated system of relief to the soldiers who were
Lot approved of. serving abroad. The principle had been laid down for se-
Mr. DISRAELI said the Noble Lord's main argument was vend years by those who had preceded him in office- it was
that the Committee had not yet decided, and yet he appeared a principle sanctioned by the head of the late Government-
to forget that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Manic) it was one which reconciled the army with service abroad,
had already decided the question, having issued orders that and therefore it was one which he had done his utmost to
no pensioners should be admitted after the sth of April.- keep intact. It allowed them (as we understood) to keep
(heer, hear.) In the teeth of that act of the Right Hon. each soldier five years at home and ten years abroad,. and
' Gentleman, the Noble Lord told them they ought to wait this system was greatly aided by the 30,497 men in India,
r the report of the Committee.-(Cheers.) After no- the maintenance of which was not defrayed by them. He
. tieing that chief fallacy of the Noble Lord, he must ex- had always maintained that it was the duty of this country
Press his opinion that the question before the House was to keep at its disposal a certain amount of force--not a very
„ 'lse same as that of the Lord-Lieutenant, although in a large force - but still a force sufficient to meet any sudden
smaller proportion. It was evidently one of the steps, as had emergency ; and then he thought, considering the wealth of
%eta said, towards establishing a great system of centralise- this country, and the great interest at stake, that it should
thin.- ( Hear, hear.) not be altogether denuded of a military force, when a foreign
Mr. F. MAULE explained that his instructions were, force might be brought there by sea. Under all circum-
' e eat no vacancy should be filled up without communicating stances, he did not consider they would be justified in having
'UM him. a smaller number than that which he proposed : namely,
Mr. W. MILES thought the motion of the Honour- 98,714 men, being within a fraction of the number that had
able and Gallant Member for Portarlington premature. been voted last year. He now
came to the second vote-the
The estimates had been before the Committee of charge that would be required for the maintenance of the army ;
the House for the last three years. He had but before he entered into that point, he wished to call the
asked the Government the other night whether it was attention of the Committee, and also that of the members of
their intention to call together the Committee for the Committee up stairs, to a statement that he desired to
the purpose of their making a report, and the answer he make, before he called tor a vote for the maintenance of the
received was in the affirmative. It was, therefore, he thought land force. He wished to state what were the reductions in
Premature to discuss this question until that report was re- the charge of the army, in consequence of the evidence that
reined. He would not say one word respecting Kilmainham had been taken on the Committee up-stairs. In the first
40spital except this-he believed that if the old soldiers were place he bad proposed to do away with the double-battalion
given their option of remaining at Kilmainham or coming system. The consequence of that was that the depot batta-
oss.Ver to Chelsea, very few would be desirous of rsmaining at lion at Parkhurst was of no use, and it was to be dispensed
Allnsainham. It became, then, a question for their consider- with. That would effect a saving of 2,3981., and there would
ation, whether it would not be necessary, on the score of be a saving of 5001. a year whenever the Commander-in-
economy, to make this change. He could not press this Chief bestowed a regiment upon a late adjutant-general.
' atillestion of economy too much on the House at the present The country had lost, by death, the services of the late
wale. Chelsea Hospital had full accommodation for the re- Deputy Quartermaster-General-a gentleman who had filled
cePtion of all those who wished to come there. his office with advantage to the public and credit to himself
The House divided, when there appeared- -(Hear) -in supplying his place, a saving would be effec'ed
For the amendment ..• .........105 of 789/. a year. In the army medical department they had
Against it ... .. ... ... ... 137 lost, by retirement, one to whom the public was much in-
Majority in favour of going into Committee-32 debted for his long and faithful services - Sir James AleGri-
e he king- gor.--(Hear.) At time age of 81, it was to be feared that he
Mr. HUME said that there was not a town in t
tiont that did not look for the financial statement of the could not long be spared to them ; but in his retirement
night Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a saving was proposed to be effected of 1,0851. Taking
„
Leie greatest anxiety: He wished to ask the House to concur these in general, the savings effected would amount to 1,4001.
'AI opinion with him in refusing any vote in supply until the He then came to the staff in Canada. In that question the
`lrovernment had brought forward their financial statement. Commit' co up-stairs had entered very minutely ; and it
Thatap-
, statement must be prepared, for it cannot be possible peared to himself, as to them, that some saving might be
but that the Government bad made up their minds before made in that branch of the army. They were enabled to
ethis as to the course they intend to take.-(Hear.) He be- reduce five officers and some subordinates, and to make a
sieved that a pledge had been given that this financial saving of 1,540/. The Deputy Judge Advocate of Ireland
for
would be made before any money would be asked was to be discontinued, and on the whole the saving effected
'or in Committee of Supply. Since the first financial state- in consequence of the evidence before the Committee was
ri,;ent was made, which did not meet with public approbation, something about 8,000/.-( Hear, hear.) Having made these
the Government had two or three weeks to consider the few observations, he now came to vote No. 2. The sum he
spatter ; and there was no reason why they had not come had asked for last year was 3,562,430/. The sum he would
forward with their amended. Budget before this. He pro- ask for this year was 3,521,0691., making a decrease in the
Pissed" that this House will not proceed to a Committee of expense of maintaining the land forces of
41,321/. The de-
SaPply until the financial statement is made." crease was made up of various items in that vate, which were
Tire SPEAKER intimated to the Hon. Member that he spreadover such a vast yarietyofs mall items, that he would not
eould not make the motion. The words that " I now leave the detain the Committee by going into a detail of every one of
their," stand part of the question, had been just settled by them. Ile would, however, take the opportunity of noticing
1114 late division. some special sums in the application of which the Caminittee,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was sorry that there should be he was sure, took a very deep interest. He might state, in
%ay misunderstanding upon this subject. He thought it was the first place. that there was one sum, that allowed for good
clearly understood that they were to proceed slith the army conduct, which had been established under the warrant of
ea imates immediately after they had disposed of the last the Right Hon. Gentleman, and which this year showed an
question. There would no doubt be a considerable amount of increase of 4,4911. It must, he thought, be satinatfactory to
explanation entered into in respect of these estimates. every man avin the interest of the army heart, that
„ Mr. IlUelE -I wish to know whether the Right Hon. Gen- this should be the case, for it was far better economy to
Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer will bring on his have an iucrease in this vote-that is, an decrease in the
financial statement on Monday next? amount of rewa-ds for good soldiers-than to find out the
Xo reply was given to the Hon. Member. means of punishing them for bad conduct.-(Hear, hear. i
Colonel SIBTHORB then rose to bring forward the motion Then, there was also an increase of the lodging money for
of
ee which he had given notice, "To call the attention of the' soldiers. It was considered most desirable that married and
Rtouse to the Treasury minute authorising an additional; unmarried soldiers should not be placed together.-(Hear.)
grant of 500/. per annum to the present salary of the chair-, Last year the sum allowed was a penny a day to married
kan of the Board of Inland Revenue." soldiers to find their own lodgings. He was aware that the
The SPEAKER, however, intimated to the Hon. and Gal-, allowance was inadequate; and therefore this year it had beat
mule t Member that he could not they bring forward a motion,l doubled, and he was quite' sure that the 2d. a day now al-
Jor the reasons before stated. . lowed to soldiers to find lodgings out of the barracks was
Colonel SIBTHORP then proceeded to comment upon the i sufficient, small as it might appear to civilians. He thought
atibject of his notice He said that there were two kinds oil it would be well if officers connected with the army were to
economy-real and false. The gentleman to whom this ad-, enter into arrangements, or if public companies were to take
ditional 500. a year was granted, was, no doubt, a very able' the matter up, and have in the neighbourhood of barracks
and efficient officer. We have had a Treasury minute -, model lodging-houses established, they would confer the
What was that? It was nothing more nor less than a dirty, greatest boon that could be conferred upon the soldier, and
secret mode of appropriating money taken out ef the pockets he believed they would even be found an excellent invest-
of
Inland
the people.-(Laughter.) The chairman of the Board of ment.-(Hear, hear.) Then as regards schools, he
taland Revenue was undoubtedly a most excellent officer, happy to say that the schools in the army were flourishing
out he thought he was very well paid for his services by a, beyond his own sanguine expectations.-(Hear.) They had
salary of 2,0001. a year. He protested against such a mode been commenced by his Right Hon. Friend opposite in the
of proceeding. It was sinister and underhand. The people year 1846, and they had gone on increasing most rosper-
Of England were oppressed by such Treasury minutes. He ously d using the last five years. In 1847 the first of waist udents
hoped the day was not far distant when such a Government, was admitted into the normal schools, and the first garrison
appointment took place in 1849. Since then they had four
Itho was neither influenced by a principle of public economy
isor regard for the people, would be forced to resign their garrison and 30 regimental teachers, and now they had 34
Places in favour of a wiser and abler body of men. The full instructors and 11 assistant masters in the army; and
Present members of the Government had only one wish, and now they could net keep pace with the demand for instructors
that was to keep their places as long as the?, could. They for other regiments.-(Hear, hear.) He hoped, then, to see
Were at present supported by a most miscellaneous body of a thorough instruction of these soldiers, as there was a corn-
Members upon their side of the Houser, Laughter) mensurate desire on the part of the officers to provide them
with that instruction. Thus education of the best kind
their reign was nearly at an end.- (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the would be provided for the
men, while steps had been takes
LGovernment must feel obliged to the Hon. and Gallant Mem- by the Commander-in-Chief to ensure the possession of a
"ereparticularly for the testimony he had borne to the merits certain amount of knowledge by those s
also had be who woulden taken
gain corn-
of the individual to whom he referred. A more efficient and mission in the army.--.(Hear.) Step
deserving public officer than this gentleman did not exist. to ensure an examination of every officer before he was per-
-41. e (th Chancellor of the Exchequer) was glad an oPPore milled to attain the rank of captain.-(Hear, bear.) He
'limey had been given him to state what the whole ar- must say that it was his belief that the House would be
long to provide some means by which the
rangement entered into was, of which this only formed called upon ere
might obtain that quantity of know
a part. It was not quite fair, to single oue one re uired from them before they'
keusure without taking into consideration the whole ar. ledge which would be q .
..
particular officers in the army
tangement. Without the able assistance of this gentleman were allowed to hold the commission of captain. This
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not have ef- examination would be a severe one, and he would say
fsected so large a reduction in the public expenditure as the that it would be too severe, unless the House placed it
Board of Inland Revenue had enabled him to do. Many within the power of the officers to attain to that
which would be required from them.
teareago the Boards of Stamps and Taxes were consolidated, amount of knowledge
Y which a great saving of the public expenditure was He did not see any other whey in which that was to be done
effected. About four years ago he had carried into execu- except by attaching to eac regiment an officer of instruc-
tion a further consolidation of the Board of Stamps and tion. Is such an officer were attached to each regiment it
devote more of their
Taxes with the Excise, forming a Board of Inland Revenue, would be an inducement to officers to
by which a still further saving of a large amount was time to study than they did at present, and would, toe
effecter'. He said most distinctly that if it were not for the leave them without an excuse for not poesmsessti.ngthalel,Ctlrmsse,
great exertions of Mr. John Wood he dared not have qualifications which were required from them
Undertaken that great consolidation.-(Hear, hear.) It was mander-ins meat) Another item he by
yad to allude
doubted much whether such an arrangement could be to with regard to the diffusionef know e amongst the sole
into effect. It was, however, owing to the zeal and diers was with respect to libraries.
exertions of Mr. John Wood that it was ultimately effected. that the increase in the number of these
ii
lie 7gbarsarhietspwpyas togosinayg
100,000 volumes
The effect of the whole consolidation of these boards was to on-that there were now upwards o
cause a saving to the public of about 250,000/. Surely in the regimental and garrison ro, and upwards
600/. a year was not too much to grant as a reward to the of 1,600 subscribers. The savings boomsa29/. and 1,890 de-
gentleman who was mainly instrumental in effecting this increase. From 1844, with a sum of 14,8 '- -,
too, showed an
d 7 782 deposi-
desirable result. If the House of Commons was not pre- positors, they hal increased to 91,661/.
Pared to reward persons for such valuable services, they tors.-(Hear, hear.) He was quite sure thatiZ however. much
could not expect that those reductions could be carried into the House might be disposed to economy
f ed to. He
execution. There were twenty-nine officers reduced; the manifest itself in such items as he had now re err
t ff in
it would not
lowest salary enjoyed by any of them was 300/. a year, and now came to the third vote-that referring to the sa ,
the highest 2,0004 The reduction thus effected was 22,900/. which he was able to state that a reduction had been effected
a Year. It would not, of course, be fair to take this addi- within a very few pounds of 5,0001. T
tional duty without additional remuneration. Surely that to the Royal Military Asylum and Hibernian
schools.
did
Was not a very unreasonable principle to lay down. He was these there had been a decrease of 6411.-a decrease t _
em
Prepared. at the time to give an additional allowance to Mr. not operate upon the effectiveness of the institutions th s
'John Wood for this additional labour; but that gentleman selves, but was attributed to cheapness of provisions tinc,d
The next voteiwaslin
Objected to take it until it was proved that he was the means other things. The next was the volunteer corps, on whi 'a
Of effecting these arrangements, and that the Government there was a decrease of 16,0001. He
eves aware that many
were fully satisfied with what he had done. A period of of his military friends would have preferred, considering the
about three years had gone by, and the benefits of the exer- value of these useful establishments, thate vote had
saidnot
Lions of that gentleman had been fully demonstrated. He been reduced during the present year. But then he,
Lthe Right lion. Gentleman) then felt it a duty he owed to let these gentlemen lay the flattering unction to their souls
'e public to reward Mr. J Wood for the essential services that the reduction was the effect of the force being found to
Which be bad thue rendered to the public.-(Hear.) be so well disciplined that it was unnecessary to call upon
se Mr. WAKLEY said that when it was announced that the them this year.-( Hear.) The seven votes constituting
k'overnment intended to bring forward their Budget very what was called the effective servi
562/., ce of the army
3,853,8631., was in the
early in the session the greatest satisfaction was experinced. whole amount for last year 3,933, this year
The Right lion. Gentleman did bring forward his Budget, showing a decrease of 62,916/. The next class of votes he
and, unhappily, it gave satisfaction to only a few. Sometime should refer to were those of the non-effective service. The
had now elapsed since it was announced that some new finan- first of these votes was for distinguished sers ices, not ex-
cial arrangement would be proposed. The reasons which ceeding three-fifths of the emoluments of garrison appoint-
urged the Government to bring forward their first Budget at ments, which had become vacant. This vote was 14,6061.
an earl eriod of the session had acquired much greater The vacancies that had occurred this year were inconsider-
force since in favour of the other financial statement which able, amounting altogether to 1,265/. The next vote was
had been promised ; and yet there was no indication given as for the pay of general officers not being colonels
to the exact time when that statement would be made, al- of regiments. Last year it was 58,00 e/. ; this
though it was well known that many branches of trade in year it was 52,0001, being a reduction of 6,000/.
by this unexpected Eighteen general officers had been removed from the list, of
the‘s country were suffering severely
l',relay. Ile concurred in the views expressed by the Hon. which eight died without regiments, and the other ten ob-
eternber for Montrose, that no money should be voted until tained regiments. The list of officers of this class was con-
the Right Hon. Gentleman had made his financial statement. sequently never so low as at this moment. In 1840 there
I.le
...hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would appoint were 120 on the list ; in 1851 there were only 114, not one of
whom was not able to make good his pay. The list, in fact,
Monday next for that statement.
Mr. BRoTHERTON thought that there was no stronger was so low, that he (Mr. F. Mauls) suspected the Govern-
feature in real economy than a well-timed liberality. He ment would have to apply to the House for the means of ex-
had known Mr. John Wood for about 25 years, and he bore tending it at no distant period. The vote for reduced and re-
testimony to all the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of tired officers' pay showed this year a reduction of 2,0001., as
the Exchequer had said respecting him, having watched his compared with last year's estimate. The vote for the half-
conduct closely during all that time. He believed him to be pay and military allowances to reduced and retired officers
A very valuable public servant. was last year 386,000/., while this year it was only 377,000/.,
Sir DE LACY EVANS urged the Right Hon. Gentleman showing a decrease of 9,000/. There was no branch of the
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to fix ilia (statement for I public expenditure for
/191411 next. watched with Wig T i secretary of War
giloo OR wit.the army which the t
IYA however,

Total

:n 1851-2, cost of army service .
111 cost of m►litia .....

Total
which gave a difference in money of 92,0001. But on the
other hand, while the army in 1835-6 only numbered
81,271 men, in 1851-2 it numbered 98,014—being an in-
crease of 17,443. In addition to this, there were now up-
wards of cs9,ot 0 veteran soldiers ready to come forward and
take their share in the defence of the country - a force that
did not exist in the former period. It was gratifying to him
to state that this was in consequence of our economy.
Before he concluded he begged to be allowed to institute a
comparison of the present administration of the army with
that of 1847-48 : he would not• refer to the forces in India,
for they wors the same in both periods. then and now. In
1847-48 the total number of the army, including India, was
108,398; in 1851-52 it was 98,740, being a difference of
7,000 and upwards. In 1847-48 the effective charge was
4,182,0( 0/. ; in 1850-52 it was 3,873,1591., being a decrease
of 308,3851. In respect to the non-effective charge, 1847-48
showed a sum equal to 2,175,3771., while in 1851-52 it was
only 2,052,2671., being a decrease of 122,9481. The decrease
in the whole charge of the army, then, within these two
years, was 431,4321. If he was to go through all the ac-
counts for five years, he would be able to show a still greater
sum ; but he would forbear. In the period in question the
army had been reduced by 10,000 men, or thereabouts ;
while the saving to the country was over 400,010/. There
were one or two other points which he should touch upon.
The first related to the discipline of the army—the second to
the state of military punishment. He was happy to say that
the improvements made in the condition of the soldier had
caused corporeal punishment to decrease with great rapidity.
The corporeal punishments in the army were, in
1846 ... ... 511
1849 ... 475
1850 ... ... 241
There were 27 regiments excluded from the latter return ;
but, giving them the same average ratio as those which had
sent in reports, the number of punishments in the army. in
that year did not amount to more than 300. The last point
to which he would advert was the mortality of the army.
This he was happy, also, to say showed a great decrease,
especially on foreign stations, in consequence of the sanitary
precautions now in operation in the army. In Jamaica, for
example, where cholera scourged all classes of the popula-
tion, there was not a single case among the soldiery in
barracks up in the mountains ; and, generally speak-
ing, the health of the troops in this island, once so
fatal, had exceedingly improved. Before 1836 the mortality
of the troops in Jamaica was 128 per 1,000; in 1849 it was
only 14 per 1,000. All the other stations showed a similar
result, with the exception of Canada, which arose from local
causes, and the East Indies. In no case was the mortality
of the British army abroad greater than it was at home
at this moment, w th the exception of one or two unfavour-
able positions to health and life —( Hear, hear.) He had, he
trusted, now shown that the condition of the British army
was one of which any country might be proud; that the
finances of that army were managed with economy, and that
all fair and just relief was given to the soldier. He (Mr. F.
Maule) had done his best to reduce, as far as he could con-
sistently with efficiency, the cost of the army; but he would
not scruple to ask for an increased expenditure, if he deemed
it at all necessary for the purpose of doing justice to the
British soldier. He would, on all occasions, endeavour to
uphold the honour of that army which he believed to be one
of the best any country ever was blessed with, which he was
satisfied could be relied upon in peace as well as in war, and
which was only anxiuus to, prove its loyalty to the Sovereign
and its fidelity to the country whenever it should be called
upon to do so.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then
moved 98,714 men for the land forces of her Majesty's army.
Mr. HUME joined the Right Hon. Gentleman in approv-
ing the economy that governed the army estimates. He re-
ferred to the disproportionate expenditure of former times,
when, with a larger outlay there were fewer men, and those
in a state of comparative inefficiency. The experiment of
economy had been so successful in this case that he hoped it
would be adopted in all other branches of the public ser-
vice; and he believed the system of army accounts was far
before that of either the ordnance or the navy. He wished
to understand whether by a civil organisation of the army a
large saving could not be effected. He considered that a mil-
lion sterling might be obtained by reorganising the ordnance
and store establishments. This, however, was not the time
to go into these subjects, and he would not do so. as a Com-
mittee was about to meet. on the subject. He would point
out how reductions might be effected with advantage and
safety. The last Finance Committee recommended keep-
ing the expenses of the array and navy within proper limits,
and proper limits to be ascertainec: by taking the evi-
dence of disinterested persons. Ile stated this because
evidence had usually been taken from military ;men,
who all had an interest in keeping up the expenses
and abuses of the existing system. One of the reasons
given for the great expenses of the army was the service of
the colonies; but we had recently changed our colonial
policy, and therefore that necessity ceased. The policy now
was to make the colonies, wherever practicable, defray their
own expenses? This policy must eventually be extended to
all colonies, and here would arise a large item of saving.
The question he wished to ask was, whether Government
ought not to act on the system laid down by Lord Grey with
reference to our colonies. There were 39,000 men employed
on coloni:1 service; but surely this force was not required
under the new system. Wherever responsible government
was given, it Was held the colony should support itself. We
had given responsible government to New Zealand and to
Canada—the first had 4,000 men, who were to be with-
drawn ; and the latter had 9,000 men, who were to be re-
tained. He should be glad to hear any valid reason for
keeping that number of men at the expense of this country
in Canada. Now if troops were to be withdrawn from the
colonies, why should the House be called upon to vote
98,000 men, when a large proportion was for colonial
purposes? If colonies wanted troops they must pay them
themselves, He should propose to reduce the number by
men.
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the amendment. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had contrasted the expenses of this year
with the years 1847-48; but those were years of extrava-
gance, and his complaint had always been that Govern-
ment was needlessly extravagant in tbia branch of public
service. Taking the average of eleven years—from 1829 to
'B4O, including the Governments of Earl Grey, Duke of
Wellington, and Lord Melbourne—he would show that the
present year was not, comparatively, a year of economy.
He found the average of those years was 93,690 men. This
year the number, including artillery, was 115,101, nearly
120,000 men more than for the years he bad referred to. He
should be glad to hear from the Right Hon. Gentleman the
reasons for keeping up this enormous force. If 93,690 men
were enough in times of dissatisfaction at home and in the
colonies, and with differences with foreign powers, why was
a larger force required when none of those causes existed ?
For nis part he was sorry his Hon. Friend had not proposed
a larger reduction than 5,000 men.— (Oh, and divide.)
Sir W. MO LESWORTH supported the amendment of Mr.
Hume, and said that the Committee which sat in 1835 to
inquire into the military expenditure in the colonies recom-
mended that the strictest economy should be adopted in
every branch of that expenditure. At that period the whole
number of troops in North America, including artillery and
engineers, was only 5,369, whilst, the military expenditure
was 337,0001. Since"that time there had been a very con-
siderable increase of the military force maintained there, and
also in the expenditure. In the year 1816-7 the amount of
military force was 9,643 men, and the expenditure 615,0001. ;
and he believed the number of troops and the expenditure
were about the same now. Thus, there had been an in-
crease since 1835 of 4,874 men, and in the expenditure of
upwards of 300,00 C/. That increase was occasioned by the
rebellion in Canada, and that rebellion was owing to Colonial-
office misgovernment. But at the present moment the Ca-
nadians had complete self-government and the entire ma-
nagement of their own affairs. We ought not, therefore, to
be called upon to maintain this number of troops for merely
local purposes ; and he contended that we might reduce the
number to the extent of 5,001, and still leave 4,000 for the
garrison of the important naval station of Halifax, and the
Imperial fortress of Quebec.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the actual number of troops
in all the North American -provinces, including Newfound-
land and Prince Edward's Island, was only 8,079; and if
from that number his lion. Friend took off 5,000, he thought
the force remaining would be a totally inadequate one.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said he had included artillery
and engineers in his statement.
Mr MACGREGOR, amidst cries of " Oh," " Divide,"
and laughter, said he did not believe we could properly
withdraw 5,000 men from the North American provinces
within the year. At the same time he admitted that reduc-
tions in our military forces must gradually be made in the
colonies, for all that was necessary to maintain there was the
skeletons of (Laughter, and divide.) He preferred,
however, to leave the making of these reductions to the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs and the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary •at-War.—(oh, eh.) He was also of opinion
that the great military establishment which we maintained
in Ireland was something like a satire on the Irish people.—
(Oh. oh, and laughter.) And be thought the people of Ire-
land could keep the peace themselves without our keepindup
such a large establishment for the purpose. (Oh, oh.)
Mr. HUME having replied, the Committee divided, when
there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it ,„
Majority •,,
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote being proposed,
Mr. HUME opposed taking such a vote after twelve
o'clock. Ho moved that the Chairman report progress.
Mr. F. MAULE hoped he would be allowed to take the
next vote, whicti was for defraying the charges of the number
of men just voted.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said there were many items of the
next vote upon welch he wished for some information, and
to make some observations.
Mr. MOWATT thought that in consequence of supply
having been gone into at so late an hour the House WAS
evidently indisposed to tolerate any discussion at present,
and he should, therefore, support the motion for reporting
Progress.
Mr. F. MAULE said the lion. Member would find in the
evidence taken before the Committee of lest year every item
in the vote fully explained.
Air, W. W11,14A10 pm that in the topper of the Homo

Alcoek, Thomas
Bass, M. T.
Bell, Jacob
Blake. Martin J.
Bright, John _1
Clay, James
Corbally, M. E.
Cowan, Charles
Crawford, W. S.
Duncan. George
Evans, Sir De Lacy
Fagan, William
Fergus, John
Fox, W. J.
Frewen. C. H.
Grace, O. D.
Greene, Jolla

... 4;
... 186

... -139

UN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 29, 1851.

at present he could not think of trespassing upon them with
any observations, and should support the motion for report-
ing progress.
The ComEnittee then divided—
For reporting progress
Against it
—139
Majority
Mr. FUME could not consent to so large a vote being
taken at that hour, and if any Hon. Member would stand by
him he should persist in dividing the House till four o'clock
rather than allow the vote to be proposed.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think, in asking for the recent
vote, that he was proposing anything unreasonable; but
after what had passed would postpone it till Monday, when
he would take it as the first business of the day, and would
postpone the motions of which he had given notice for that

USINESS.

any.
Mr. HUME said it was against the usual custom to take
votes after twelve o'clock. He gave netice that he would
move on Monday that no supply be taken till the financial
statement was before them.
Mr. ADDERLEY had given notice of a motion on
the Kafir war on the House going into supply, and had
hoped that he would have been able to have done so on
Monday.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was quite right that the Hon.
Gentleman should receive what information e uld bo given
of the Kafir war, and no doubt he would have an oppor-
tunity of bringing forwail the motion on the question that
the Speaker leave the chair. But he thought that the Hon.
Gentleman would seelthat in the present position of business
he could not proceed with the! business originally fixed for
the first thing on Monday. The sth of April was near,
and unless the House voted a certain sum there would not
be any funds on that day fur the necessary service of the
country.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME said he decidedly intended to move that
no supply should be granted till the financial statement was
made.
Mr. BRIGHT knew that the feelings out of doors was in
favour of the course proposed by his lion. Fr'end. If any
delay had taken place in bringing forward the financial busi-
ness, it had been owing to the House running after a hare
they could not catch. The public he thought had no right
to complain of the delay, as it had been caused by proceed-
ings favoured by them.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the House
resumed.
The Appointment of Vice-Chancellor's Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The Metropolis Buildings Bill was understood to have been
read a second time.
The Committee on Ways and Means was postponed until
Monday.
Mr. HUME said many felt anxious about the Metropolis
Building Bill, and it was desirable its provisions should be
understood.
Lord SEYMOUR said a discussion could be had on a
future stage.
Mr. J. STUART obtained leave to bring in a Bill to re-
peal the Act for Shortening the Language of Acts of Parlia-
ment.
Mr. HUME nlovua for returns of the number of lights for
the use of shipping maintained by the' Trinity House at
Hull in the year 1850; stating what kind of lights, and
where placed; also, under what authority erected, and at
whose expense; stating also the number of buoys and bea-
cons maintained in the same year, and where placed; also,
the rate of charges on shipping for the lights, buoys, and
beacons, and distinguishing severally the charges on British
and foreign vessels —viz., for vessels below the buoy of the
Cleaness • above the buoy of the Cleaness to the buoy of the
Burcombe; above the buoy of the Burcombe to Grimsby, or
to Whitebooth, and to the port of Hull. And of the gross
amount of revenue received by the Trinity House of Hull for
the same year, showing the several sources of that revenue,
and the amount of each source; and further, an account.
under separate heads, of the manner in which the year's
revenue was expended (in continuation of the Return in
Appendix, No. 65, of the Report on Lighthouses, No. 607,
of IMP).ROVEMENT OF TOWNS (IRELAND) BILL
COMMITTEE.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved that Dr. Bond should be
excused from attendance on the above Committee, and Mr.
Knox be added.—Agreed to.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE also moved that the same Com-
mittee consist of lr Members, and that Sir P. Nugent and
Messrs. Scully, Devereux, and Grace, be added to the same.
Mr. SCULLY expressed his wish to be excused from
serving.
II Pit! W. SOMERVILLE said of course any Hon. Member
could not be forced; but he regretted he had not been
previously informed of the Hon. Member's objection, and he
might have inserted another name.
The other names were then proposed and agreed to.
Mr. MAHER proposed that Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Scully,
Mr. Devereux, and Mr. Sullivan, should be nominated on
the Committee.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE opposed the motion.
A desultory discussion, in which several Irish Members
took part, ensued.
Sir R. FERGUSSON alluded to the squabbling which had
taken place for years in the corporation of Dublin, as having
delayed for some four or five years all measures of local im-
provement.
Mr. REYNOLDS said the Hon. Baronet might be a clas-
sical authority in the affairs of corporations, but he did
not say on their jobbing—(Orde, hear)—but he could
inform the Hon. Baronet that one party' had struggled for
years for their rights, and had at last succeeded in gaining
them. The lion. Member then proceeded to complain that
Sir W. Somerville had refused to put his name upon the
Committee they were then discussing, which he attributed
to the fact that he was this year in opposition to the Govern-
ment. In like manner his name had been kept off the
Dublin Valuation Committee, but such would not have been
the case last year when he was a supporter of the Government.
He complained generally of the composition of the Improve-
ment of Towns' Committee, and pointed out that no represen-
tation from the county of Tipperary, in which there were
so many important towns, had been amongst those nomi-
nated.
After a few words from Mr. J. O'ColettEu. and Sir W.
SonERVILLE,
The House divided, on the motion that Mr. Reynolds should
be added to the Committee, and there appeared—
For the motion ... 11
Against it ... 51,
Majority ••• ••• ••• ••• —4O
The Committee was then appointed without the addition
of Mr. Reynolds's name.
The remaining business on the paper was disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter before Two o'clock until
Twelve o'clock this day.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS

(From the V. tes and Proceelin
MARCPIgs of the Howe of Commons )
FRIDAY, 28.
SUPPLY.
(IN THE COMMITTEE.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That a number
of Land Forces, not exceeding 98,714 Men (exclusive of the
Men employed in the Territorial Possessions of the East
India Company), Commissioned and Non-Commissioned
Officers included, be maintained for the Service of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the Ist
da of April, to the 31st day of March, 1852, inclu-.
sivo :"—Afterwards Motion made, and Question put, " That
a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 95,714 Men (ex-
clusive of the Men employed in the Territorial Possessions of
the East India Company), Commissioned and Non-Commis-
sioned Officers included, be maintained for the service of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the let
day of April, 1351, to the 31st day of March, 1852, inclu-
sive." The Committee divided :
MINORITY—AYES, 47.
Hall, Sir B. Mowatt, Francis
Ilastie, Archibald O'Brien, Sir Timothy
Henry, Alexander O'Connell, John
Heywood, James Pigott, Francis
Heyworth, Lawrence Pilkington, Jamul
Hindley.Charles Reynolds, John
Jackson, William Scully, Francis
Keating, Robert Sullivan, Michael
Kershaw, James Thompson, Colonel
King, P. J. Urquhart, David
Leonard, T. B. Wakley, Thomas
11I'Gregor, John Walmsley Sir J.
Maher, N. Williams,John
Marshall, J. G.
Moffatt, George TELLERS.
Molesworth, Sir W. Hume, Joseph
Morris, David Williams, W.

MAJORITY—NOES, 186.
Abdy, T. N. Foley, John H. Owen, Sir John
Acland, Sir T. Fordyce, A. D. Paget, Lord C.
Adair, R. Shafto Forster; Matthew Pakington, Sir J.
Adderley, C. Z. Forteseue. Chichester Palmer, Robert
Aglionhy, 11. Freestun, Colonel Palmerston, Via.
Anson, Colonel Gallwey, Sir W. P. Parker, John
Archdall, Captain Gaskell, J. M. Patten, J. W.
Armstrong, Sir A. Goddard, A. L. Pennant, Hon. Col.
Armstrong, R. B. Gooch, E. S. Power, Nicholas
Arundel, Earl or Goold, Wyndham Rawdon, Colonel
Balnes, M. T. Gordon. Admiral Reid, Colonel
Baird James Gore, W. R. 0. Ricardo, Osman
Baring, 11. B. Goillburn. Henry Rice, E. R.
Baring, Sir F. ' Graham, Sir James Rich, Henry
Barrington, Viscount Greenail, Gilbert Romilly, Colonel
Barrow, W. 11. Greene, Thomas Russell, Lord John
Bellew, R. M. Grenfell, Charles W. Russell, F. C.
Berkeley, Admiral Grey, Sir G. Sandars, George
Berkeley, Henry F. Grey, Ralph W. -ScroPe, G. I'.
Berkeley, C. L. G. Grosvenor, Lord R. , seaham, Viscount
Blair. Stephen Guernsey, Lord Seymer, U. K.
Booth, Sir R. t. Gwyn, Bowel Seymour, Lord
Bowles, Admiral Hallyburton, Lord Sibthorp, Colonel
Boyle, Colon& Harris, Richard Simeon, John
Brockman, E. D. • Ilatchell, John Smith, J. A.
Buller, Sir Y. Hawes, Benjamin Smollett, A.
Bunbury, Edward Heathcoat, John Somers, J. P. _
Burghley, Lord Heneago, G. H. W. Somerville. Sir w •
Buxton, Sir E. Henley. J. W. Spearman, H. J.
Carew, W. P. Herbert, H. A. Spooner, Richard
Carter, John B. Herbert, Sydney Stafford, A.
Cavendish, C. C. Hobhouse, T. B. Stanford, J. F.
Cavendish, G.H. Hodgson, W. N. Stanley, Edward
Charteris. Francis Hothain;Lord Stansfleld, W. R. C.
Chatterton, Colonel Howard, C. W. Stanton' W. H.
Chichester, Lord J. Howard, P. H. Stuart, John
Childers, J. W. Hudson, G. Sturt, Henry G.
Christy, Samuel Jones, Captain Tancred, H. W.
Clements, Charles Kildare, Marquis Tenison, E. K.
Clerk, Sir G. Knox, W. S. Thicknesse, R. A.
Clive, H. B. Labouchere, Henry Thompson,'
Cocks, T. hl. Lewis, .G. C. Thornely, .
Thomas
Town
Coke, Edward K. Lindsay, Colonel Alderman
shend, Capt.
Cowper, W. F. Lockhart, A. E. Trevor, G. R.
Craig, Sir W. G. Long, W. Turtle% Henry
Turner, G. J.
Dawson, T. V. Mackie, John Tyler, Sir G.
Dodd, G. Macaghten, Sir E.
Dalrymple, Captain Lygon, Gen.
Vane, Lord 11.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Matheson, A. Verner, Sir; W.
Duckworth, Sir J. Matheson, Sir J. Verney, Sir H.
Duke, Sir James Matheson, Colonel Watkins, Colonel
Duncuft, John Maule, Fox Wellesley, Lord C.
Dundas, Admiral Miles, P. W. S. Westhead, J. P.
Dundas, George Miles, William Williamson, Sir H.
Dundas, Sir David Milner, W. M. Wilson, James
Dunne, Colonel Mitchell, T. A. Wilson, Matthew
Ebrlngton, Viscount Mostyn, E. M. L. Wood, Sir Charles
Edwards, Henry Mulgrave, Earl Wrightson, W. B.
Estcourt, J. B. B. Mundy, William Wynn, H. W.
Evans, William Newdegate, C. N. Wyvill, M.
Ferrer, James Noel, Gerald J. TELLERS.
Ferguson, Sir it. Norreys, Lord Hayter, W. G.
Fitzpatrick, J. W. Ogle, S. C. Hill, Lord M.

The attempt to destroy so large an interest in the manner
contemplated, namely, by a private Bill, was altogether un-
preced•nted in Parliamentary annals. He denied that the
public had desired the removal of the market. All they had
sought was the abatement of the existing annoyances, and
it was the peculiar object of the corporation plan to effect
their removal.
Mr. Wyld and several other gentlemen of the deputation
having spoken,
Sir G GREY assured the deputation that the Government
had no interest in the matte-, other than that of meeting the
views and wishes of the public.
The LORD MAYOR thanked the Right Hon. Baronet for the
courteous attention paid to the statements which had been
made. and expressed an earnest hope that they had not been
made in vain.

ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE.
WESTE.RIV -CIRCUIT.—Bodmin, March 27.
CIVIL SlDE.—(Before Mr. Baron MARTIN and a Special

Jury.)