The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-07 00:00:00

( PRICE 7p.)

been given to suspend all further proceedings under the
Act, until he (Lord Althorn) had had the opportunity of
taking the opinion of the House on the subject of which

he had given notice.
Mr. O'CONNELL complained that, in a great many
instances, the clergymen of the establ►shed church, with-
out demand, had handed over to attorneys the lists of the
sums due to them, and in one single county 1,000
writs were issued for sums in no case exceeding I/. At
the same time, however, when the poor men came to
offei their 3s. or 4s. which was due, a demand was
made for 21. 14s. costs; this had been the case
in several counties. He might be told that
Government bad no control in such matters, but it was

quite evident they had, because in some instances they hail
sent out a police, or, as in Youghal, a military fotce—
(Hear, hear)—for the purpose of assisting the recovery
of the claims. He was furnished with the circumstances

of time, and place, and names, and he was ready to
give evidence to these points at the bar of the House. It
really seemed to him as if the intention of Government
was to force the Irish peasantry into an insurrection. He
wished to know whether any orders had been sent to pre-
vent the police from coming in aid of such proceedings.
Lord ALTHORP was aware that in some particulars the

Hon• and Learned Member's statement was quite correct.

and that in some instances the clergy had enforced
their claims in an imprudent manner, but the
Hon. and Learned Gentletpan Was mistaken in his

information that in any of those instances the assistance
of Government by means of a police or military force had

been afforded.

Mr. O'CONNELL was ready to prove such had been 'he
fact, and he was only anxious that general direction+
should be sent to those in command of the police force to
prevent a recurrence of such scenes.
Mr. RONA YNE supported the statement of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, and read from an affi-

davit a passage in corroboration of the Lets which had been

stated.

Mr. LEFROY hoped the House would suspend its
judgment upon the question before them for the present.
The clergy of Ireland, in the most disturbed districts, had

been for the last three years without receiving any income,

and it was not at all surprising that they should take
the first opportunity that the restoration of peace
aff,rded to obtain some part of the money that was
owing to them. Many of them, with their fami-

lies, had been in a state of starvation, and when the law was
likely to resume its authority, it was not at all remarkable
that they should endeavour to obtain what wa4 due to
them. He trusted that the Hon. Member for Dublin would

In future furni,h to Members a statement so as to enable

them to meet the charges which were to be made, and not
bring forward charges in the gross as he had done to-
night. It would be but fair dealing, and he (Mr. Lefroy)
would then pledge himself to defeat them, and if he did,
he hoped the Hon. and Learned Member would admit he
had been mis-informed. He hoped the Rinse would pause
before they passed such a sweeping charge of odium upon a
clergy who hail been eulogized for their forbearance
during the last three years. He hoped the Noble Lord
would state what he meant by the term " imprudent
proceedings."
Lord ALTHORP spoke across the table in so low a
tone as ti be innadible, except we understood him to say
that he did not intend to apply the term generally.
Mr. O'CONNELL assured the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman (Mr. Lefroy), that he should
have a full opportunity of contradicting the fact.
Mr. BARRON wished to ask whether the police of
Ireland were empowered to go armed for the purpose co
enforcing the collection of tithes. He could declare, and
prove it to the House, that they were doing so at this
moment. They were taking the most outrageous pro-
ceedings for the payment of tithes.—(Hear, hear.) In
some cases they would not even take the money when
it was offered, but served a process, not such a one
as would cost but 7s. or 10s,, but the most expensive pro-

cess that put the poor man to the expense of from 31. to
31. 10s. That he could prove.—(Hear, hear.) He could
prove that that had frequently occurred in the last six
weeks. They were, in fact, taking the most disgraceful
proceedings, in order, in fact, to drive the people into open
rebellion--(Hear, hear.) It was impossible for any man
with blood in his veins to withstand such disgraceful
conduct, and those were the men who were driving unfor-
tunate men into open rebellion.
Sir H. VIVIAN did not complain of the conduct of
the police, as the Hon. Member did who bad preceded
him. The Government had done all they could to keep
the country peaceable.—(Hear, hear, hear.) As to
the military having assisted the police in serving
process, the military had never done any thing but to
cover the civil power. Although, as charged by some
Hon. Members, the clergy might have been rather too
hasty in their demands, nothing could exceed the manner
in which they had resisted coming for ward. —(Cheers from
one side, re-echoed ou the other.) Nothing in fact could
exceed their tardiness, considering the destitute condition
in which they had been placed. It was absolutely neces-
sary that tithes should he done away with.—(Cheers from
both sides of the House.) He repeated that he hoped
with all his soul that tithes would soon be done away
with, and a commutation established. He did not mean
in what he had said that the amount shoubl go into the
pockets of the landed proprietors.—(Cheers from one side,
re-echoed on the other.) He would declare that if tithes
were done away with, and justice done to the Irish poor,
the best friends they would have would be the clergy of
their parishes.—(Loud cheers.)
An Hort. MEMBER said that to his knowledge the con-
duct of many clergymen since the passing of the Coercive
Bill had been exceedingly oppressive towards those whose
tithes were in arrear.
Lord STORMONT having understood from the Noble
Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on a former
occasion, that he was of opinion a short-hand writer
should be employed to take the evidence given before the
factory commission, begged to ask whether he had given
any directions for the evidence being so taken ?
Lord ALTHORP said that in answering on a former
evening the question of the Noble Lord, the Member
for Dorsetsbire, he did not say that the evidence ought
to be taken by a short-hand writer. What he bad said
was, that he considered the evidence ought to be taken
and laid on the table of the House ; and he could assure
the Noble Lord that such would be the case.—(Hear.)
Lord ASHLEY said that of course the Noble Lord must
know better what he said, than he who listened to him.
but he (Lord Ashley) gave his solemn word of honour,
that he understood the Noble Lord to say that the evidence
ought to be taken by a short-hand writer. If such, how-
ever, was not to be the case, he would reserve to himself
the right of protesting against all the evidence that might
be taken before the Commissioners,
Mr. POULETT THOMSON said that, in conse-
quence of what had passed on a former evening, he had
asked one of the Commissioners as to the mode in which
they meant to take the evidence, and he had been informed
that this was the course to be followed : the substance of
the evidence was to be taken down, and the witnesses were
to be allowed to give in any written statement they
might please. This, as well as the substance of the evi-
dence taken, they would have the liberty of enlarging,
altering or effacing, as they might think fit.—(Hear,
hear.) Each witness would sign each paper when he had
put it into the shape he thought most correct, and the
papers thus signed would be laid before the House.
Mr. SPRING RICE begged to add, that this was not
the first time evidence upon important questions bad been
thus taken. It was so taken in the case of the commission
of judicial inquiry in Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Gentleman forgot to
state, that the evidence in that case had been complained
of, because the way in which it was taken, allowed delin-
quents to shelter themselves from public odium by saying
the evidence was not fairly taken.
The petition was then laid on the table.
Mr. ROBINSON presented a petition from the mer-
chants, shipowners, and others of Brixham Torbay, Devon,
complaining of the rates of pilotage, and the local changes
of the port of Dartmouth, and also of the general distres-
of the shipping interests.—Referred to the Committee.
Mr. C. BULLER postponed his motion which stood
for this day, till Thursday next.
Mr. O'CONNELL said be had to ask leave to brim
in a Bill which might be deemed a Private Bill, but it
should more properly be considered of a public nature.
It had become absolutely necessary in the Shannon, and
oilier rivers and estuaries, that piers and wharfs should
be erected in their course ; in some of these on the
margins on the r: titer side were on exceedingly fl t
ground, composed, indeed, of alluvial moils, so inac-
cessible from the water that passengers by steam-boar.
and oilier conveyances bad frequently to pass within Soo
yards of the places they wished to attain, and take it