The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-03 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 3, 1834.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 2.
ALLAN'S DIVORCE BILL.

After some of se:vations from Earl GODOLPHIN, the
LORD CtrawcELLoa, and Lord WYNFORD, this bill was
read a second time, andordered to be-committed to-morrow.
Lord KENYON presented petitions from Hackney, and
several other places, praying the house not to consent to
the disunion of Church and State.
The Duke of GRAFTON presented apetition from the
dissenters of Stow Market, praying for relief.
The Bishop of HEREFORD presented a petition from
the diocese of Hereford, against the admission of Dissenters
to the Universities.

•
The Earl of SEFTON presented a petition from the
Dissenters of Rochdale, Middleton, and Hailingden, pray-
ing for relief.
Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition from a parish
in Essex against the admission of Dissenters to the Um-
ver3ities, and their exemption from Church Rates.
WARWICK BOROUGH BILL.

Lord WYIVPORD wished to know whether some ar-
rangement could not be come to with respect to the exami-
nation of witnesses on this bill, whereby the matter might
be brought to a more speedy conclusion. The house had
already been occupied for a long period with the examina-
tion of witnesses, and there still remained, as he had been
informed, upwards of fifty witnesses to be examined on be-
half of the bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he con-
curred in the observations that had fallen from his
noble friend (Lord Wynford). He thought counsel ought
to be called upon to shorten the case as much as they could,
consistent with justide towards their clients.
The Earl of DURHAM stated that any plan that
could be devised to quicken the progress of the bill
should meet with his entire approbation. Perhaps
that object might be effected by commencing early in the
morning, and going on day by day till the examination was
concluded.

After some observations from the Duke of CUMBER-
LAND and Lord LYNDHURST, the house proceeded with
the presentation of petitions. Petitions were presented in
favour of the established church, and against the admission
of dissenters to the universities, by the Duke of Welling-
ton, the Earl of Westmoreland, the Duke of Gloucester,
and the Duke of Rutland.
SILK TRADE.

Viscount STRANGFORD postponed his motion with
respect to the silk trade, in consequence, as the noble
viscount stated, of circumstances of notoriety over which
he had no control.

At this period, the house was very much crowded with
Peers, and the greatest anxiety seemed to prevail as to
whether any explanation would be given by Earl Grey.
Counsel were, however, called in on the Warwick Borough
Bill, and nothing was said. The only ministers present
were Earl Grey, the Marquis of Lansdowne, and Lord
Melbourne. •
The house adjourned at nine o'clock.

whatever might be his own individual opinion upon
that question, still he must say that he did not consider
that that was the most proper time for the house to come
to a decision upon the question. If the house was prepared
to come to a decision upon it they were certainly, as he
had before said, quite competent to do so ; but if the pro-
perty was, in reality, greater than was necessary for the
maintenance of the established church, he• maintained
that it would be for the benefit of that Church itself, and
very far from injuring it, that such surplus should be
applied to the religious and moral instruction of the
People. (Cheers.) By that course the country_ and
of course the Church would be much benefitted. He did
not. think that that was the proper time for the houseto de-
ei to upon the question, as the house had just been informed
t sat his Majesty had been advised to issue a commission
for the purpose of inquiring into the question from thefoun-
dation, and that his Majesty had been most graciously
Pleased to act upon such advice. No doubt the hon. gen-
tleman would, if he carried his resolution, place his motion
in a firm position, but most certainly he would not
put it in a better one than it stood at present.
He certainly did not think it would be at all proper
to pass such a resolution as his honourable friend
proposed before they knew what might be the course
which Parliament would adopt, when the informa-
tion that was desired was obtained. ( Hear, hear.)
When he had stated to his hon. friend the grounds on which
he exclusively relied with respect to the present question,
he had omitted to refer to another question which had been
decided before by that house with respect to the state of
thc,..nrzuent Titlie„Bill. His Majesty's Government, in
introdating that bill, had never intended to prejudge the
question as to the appropriation of church property, yet it
was stated by many members, and particularly those who
represented Ireland, that they were prejudging the
question. Gentlemen on both sides of the house
appeared to think his Majesty's government ought to leave
that question open, and therefore they decided to omit all
the clauses in that bill relating to the redemption of tithes.
His Majesty's Government had issued a commission to
bring before the house all the information upon the subject
that was necessary to enable the house to decide upon
it, and it was for honourable gentlemen now to say
whether they would put so little confidence in the declara-
tion of his Majesty's government, confirmed as it was by
the issuing of the commission, that nothing would satisfy
them but a pledge from the house. He thought that such a
resolution was quite unnecessary, and he should therefore
propose that the house should come to no conclusion
whatever at present upon it. He would state to the
house, that the government had taken the question into its
serious consideration (Hear, hear, hear) ; and he should
now propose the adoption of the previous question.
Government had stated to the house, that the commission
had been issued for the purpose of inquiring into the
question, and therefore the circumstances into which
he proposed to put the house would enable gentlemen
to decide more satisfactorily upon the question.
lie would not detain the house further ; he had stated the
ground on which he proposed to treat the question, and
he asked the house to put confidence in his Majesty's
ministers. (Some laughter, followed by tremendous
cheering.) There might be gentlemen in that house who
put less confidence in his Majesty's government than
it was entitled to (Tremendous cheering, which con-
tinued for some minutes), but he felt convinced that
the majority of that house had that confidence in him
( Hear, hear) and his Majesty's government which they
were entitled to. (Hear, hear.) He threw himself upon
the house on this question, which he considered not only a
question of consequence but of confidence. The noble
lord sat down amid much cheering.
The SPEAKER then put the question, that the right
of appropriating the revenues of the church being in Par-
liament, it was the opinion of that house that the revenues
of the church of Ireland, as by law established, should be
reduced.

Mr. HUME rose and said that he regretted he could
not agree with the noble lord'sproposition, because he held
in his band a speech made by the noble lord on the
12th of February last, when, after enumerating the vari-
ous branches of revenue accruing to the church, he had
concluded by saying that he would not object to any sur-
plus being appropriated to the exigencies of the state.
That, he (Mr. Hume) contended, admitted the prin-
ciple of his noble friend's motion. (Hear.) The church
property being about to be valued by the bill introduced
by the noble lord, that valuation was to be so arranged that
the surplus should be appropriated to the purposes of the
state..lf he (Mt: H.) had any doubt that sucirwas the in-
tent of the bill, he would refer to the disc ission on the
147th clause, when the honourable members who sat
on his right, and who had now cheered the noble lord,
had voted in the majority of 3:30, by which that clause
had been carried. The 147th clause had been then
described as the essence and principle of the bill, and he
(Mr. H.) had thought it most essential, as it admitted
the right of Parliament to deal with the revenues of the
church. What followed? The house, after affirming
that clause, were now to be told that differences
had long existed upon that- question, and without any
explanation whatever, save and except that as that clause
if persevered in would probably interfere with the passing
of the bill in another place, they were to be called upon to
negative it. ( Hear.) Ile appealed to the right honour-
able the late Secretary for the Colonies, if one objection
which had been made to that clause was not,
that the time was not fitting, and on that account the noble
lord called upon the house to reject it. The house did re-
ject it, by about the same majority by which it had
previously affirmed it. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
If he had therefore to express his regret in not being able
to comply with the request of the noble lord, he had
the satisfaction of feeling that his ground of dis-
sent was that many of his Majesty's ministers
conscientiously believing that the principle proposed to be
adopted by Government with respect to what was called
the church property, would, rather than give their sanc-
question, which was to postpone a
vhrqUestion in debate, recede from his Ma-
and what then Was the situation of the
jt
ui Banc-
on
mt oe n
tt hetuepopnr
to proceed upon the principles from which
jhensutyse's?coiNvinascilsit;
those right hon. gentlemen had receded ? Was it to decide
the principle, or was it to leave it in the hands of the
noble lord, and those who had joined him, to do as they
should think fit? The house would perhaps be surprised to
hear that an ecclesiastical commission was actually sitting
at this moment, which had been appointed by this Par-
liament, on the 15th of August. That commission con-
sisted of several right rev. Peers—it consisted both of
ecclesiastical and lay individuals. What was that
commission to do ? It was to make a full
inquiry into all ecclesiastical benefices, and many other im-
portant church matters ; and what did the noble lord pro-
pose now to do beyond that ? He proposed to add
the respective numbers of Catholic and Protestant
population. (Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr. H.) thought
that a very material question, but one to be decided after
the question the house was now upon, and one which ought
not to interfere in any way whatever with that debate.
What progress had been made ? He recollected one sen-
tence in the noble lord's speech, in which he said he was
not aware of the amount of the income of the Irish church.
Why, he might learn it from Parliamentary papers—from
a report, made by the Commissioners, of the archiepisco-
pal and episcopal revenues of the church. That was
one of the objects of the proposed resolution. (Hear,
hear.) Under that commission they had laid before them
all the information which it was proposed to obtain, save
that of the separate number of each sect. Was that a. matter
of sufficient importance, after a separation upon principle,
to come and ask for a vote of confidence, without stating
their own opinion ? The noble lord said that whatever
might be his own opinion, he was not prepared to state it.
He (Mr. Hume) did not understand the noble lord to have
stated his own opinion. He (Lord Althorp) said that he
considered that the information proposed to be obtained was
necessary to enable the house to deal with the questiOn.
They were already in possession of the whole in-
formation, and lie (Mr. Hume), therefore submitted,
that they (the house) had not been fairly used in
being called upon to place confidence in any new arrange-
ments unless they were satisfied it was intended to affirm the
principle of the proposed motion, and to act upon it to the
fullest extent. The motion of the noble lord, if carried,
would not produce the least benefit, inasmuch as sufficient
information was
already acquired. Lord Anglesea
had made statements of the greatest importance ;
and what confidence could the house place in the noble
lord when such information was neglected? (Hear,
hear.)_ Lord Anglesea had declared- that reform in
the Protestant Church of Ireland was absolutely
necessary, and would the house he 'deaf to such an
announcement. as that ? The time was now come
Tiprinciples of the hon. member's motion
hen
ought theo be recognised and boldly affirmed by that
house ; and though the commission proposed by
the noble lord might tend much to the application of the
power of the house; the motion of the hen, member ought
not to be dismissed. The house had passed the Coercion
Bill, and other Measures of a harsh nature, and now it was
high time that remedial measures should be adopted.
After the division that had taken place in the cabinet,
and the manner in which the noble lord had brought for-
ward the question, he was surprised ministers could expect
the confidence of that house. The question appeared to
him a milk-and-water affair, and totally upwerthv of the
house. He should sqPport the motion of his hon.' friend,
who, to trusted, would press it to a division. ( Hear. )
Colonel DAVIES felt great embarrassments in sup-
p2rting_his Majesty's ministers on the present occasion.
He. e. di eyed Irvin tile hononreble inember behind itiM