The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, AUGUST 9, 1834.

tions falling from the Right Rev. Prelate. He should like to
know how the case stood now ; whether parishes ever gave a far.
thing to the woman till she applied for it ?—( Hear, hoar.)
The Marquis of SALISBURY supported the clauses.
The Duke of Wellington's clauses were then agreed to.
The Bill was then passed.
The Church Temporalities' Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed on Monday, with an understand-
ing that the discussion on its merits should then take place.
The Cinque Ports Pilots Bill was read a first time, and or-
dered to be read a second time on Tuesday.
The Abolition of Fines and Recoveries (Ireland) Bill was
read a first time. To be read a second time on Tuesday.
The House then adjourned at a quarter past ten, to twelve
o'clock this day.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 8.
The SPEAKRR resumed the Chair at ten minutes past five.
Returns were presented from the Commissioners of the
Royal Military Canal, which were laid on the table.
Mr. R. CARTER presented a petition from the Licensed
Victuallers of Portsea, against the increase of the duty on
licences.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition from
writers, procurators, solicitors, and attorneys, of the Royal
Burgh of Ross, against the attorney tax ; also a petition signed
by the Lord Provost and several thousand inhabitants of Edin-
burgh, praying assistance for the House of Refuge for the Des-
titute. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman gave notice, that at
the very commencement of next Session he should move for
leave to bring in a Bill for the abolition of imprisonment for
debt, except in cases for fraud—( Hear; hear)—also a Bill
to render more secure the execution of wills respecting pro-
perty real or personal ; also a Bill for the enfranchisement of
copyholds and the improvement of all tenures.
Mr. HILL brought up the report of the Committe on Baron
de Bode's case.
Captain GORDON presented a petition from licensed
distillers of a place in Scotland, praying to be placed on an
equality with the Irish distillers as regarded the duty upon
spirits.
Mr. JONES presented a petition from Londonderry in sup-
port of the Established Church.
Mr. JAMES OSWALD brought up the 45th report of the
Committee upon public petitions.
Mr. RUTH VE N moved for a return of the quantity of tea
sold at the last June sale of the East India Company—
Ordered. The same Hon. Member presented a petition
from an individual of the name of Charles Malone, of Kildare,
complaining of being deprived of a pension and claiming
compensation.

considered the Irish Tithe Bill as one of the best answers ever
made to the cry for the repeal of the Union ; and that, con-
nected with the generosity which this country had exhibited on
the occasion, it would do more to cement the Union, than any
act which could be imagined. If the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's predictions were to be verified, and if the Bill
were to fail, the Church of Ireland was gone.
Mr. RUTH VEN agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had just spoken, that if some such Bill as the Irish Tithe
Bill were not adopted, there would be an end to the Protes-
tant establishment in Ireland.
Colonel O'GRADY was in constant communication with
his constituents, and he was happy to say, that out of all the
clergy who resided in the county which he had the honour to
represent, he had not received a single letter against the Bill.
He understood, also, that all the gentlemen of the Grand
Juries of Cork, Limerick, and Kerry, concurred in entertain-
ing a favourable opinion of the Bill. He trusted that it would
succeed.

Mr. LE FR 0 Y was satisfied, whatever certain persons
might have communicated to the Right Hon. Secretary for
Ireland, that the great body of the laity would never join the
conspirators in their endeavours to overturn the Church of that
country.
Mr. HUME said the present measure was undoubtedly one
of great liberality, and if defeated, would never lac followed up
by anything half so advantageous to the Church.—( Hear,
hear.) The Hon. and Learned Recorder of Dublin (Mr. F.
Shaw) would surely not allege that the clergy were indifferent
to the peculiarity of their present situation, or that they did
not know their own interest. If they did not choose to take
what was now offered, she (Mr. Hume) would tell him that
they might go without—( Hear, hear)—for that House, he was
satisfied, would vote them no more of the English money.—
(Cheers.) Therefore let them take that or none.—( Hear.)
That was the understanding, and it must be abided by.—
(Hear.) But what they had done he (Mr. Hume) con-
tended was wrong—it was wrong to vote 100,000/. to keep
up the Church in Ireland. Instead of thus voting money
to keep it up—they ought rather to cut it down to the real
wants of the Protestant portion of the community. They
burthened the Exchequer, and did not do away with the dissa-
tisfaction.--( Hear.) He wished in that, the last act of the
session, to say a word or two to his Majesty's Ministers. And
he must tell them plainly, that the country had been wholly
disappointed in the reasonable and just expectations which
they had formed of amelioration and reform. Before the Par-
liament met, the people had naturally been indulging the hope
that substantial reforms were preparing—that during the re-
cess Ministers were maturing and perfecting those plans of re-
lief which naturally sprung out of those great measures of re-
form. They had indulged the hope not only of reforms of a
civil and financial character, but of a great and searching re-
form of the abuses connected with the Church establish..
ment, and the Sovereign himself from the throne had ad-
verted to these necessary reforms, thus giving the fullest
sanction to them. They had also expected that those
who were looked- upon in some degree as an exclusive
class in the country—as men beneath their fellow men be-
longing to another creed--would receive an early and full
relief from disabilities under which they had too long been
permitted to labour.—(Hear, hear.) Did the acts of his
Majesty's Ministers satisfy any of these reasonable expec-
tations ? Assuredly not. Why, what was the amount of
all that had been effected by the Government ? Only
one Bill which could be called a public Bill—that for the
amendment of the poor laws—had yet been passed. The
Tithe Bill had been carried through that House certainly,
but it was not yet passed. Every other measure introduced
by his Majesty's Ministers had failed. At the same time
he must admit there were some redeeming matters on which
the public might look with satisfaction. They had fortu-
' nately removed from the Cabinet the members who were
most strongly adverse to those reforms on which the people
were most bent.—( Hear.) He certainly could congratulate
the country on being in a better situation in this respect.
He did not wish to refer, in support of what he said, to any
of those Hon. Gentlemen who more peculiarly coincided in
his views and acted with him, but he would appeal to the
most moderate man in that House to stand up and say if the
expectations of the people had not been most signally de-
feated ?—( Hear, hear.) He trusted these complaints would
not have to be made at the close of the next session. He
hoped for better things. They had now got a Government
which he hoped, by its acts, would prove itself a firm, steady,
and liberal one. If this were the case, the people would soon
cease to complain—they would not look back with dissatisfaction,
but would rather look forward with confidence and hope.—
( Hear, hear.) He would, before sitting down, take the liberty of
saying a word or two to the Noble Lord the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. The Noble Lord and his colleagues had now
time to look about them—they had six months before them in
which to prepare those measures which must infallibly be de-
cided during the ensuing session of Parliament. Those mea-
sures must necessarily be of a bold and decisive character, or
"they would not be final. They must have in that House no
more piecemeal legislation—no scrap-work—no bit of reform
here and bit of reform there—but they must have those large
and comprehensive measures which would have regard to the
interests and the welfare of all.—( Hear, hear.) They must
cut down the Irish Church to its proper dimensions—they
must give the most ample relief to that class which, in his
opinion, formed the majority of the people—they must apply
themselves to the reform of the Church of England—they
must do away with the abuses of corporations-4 Loud cries of
" Hear, hear")—a subject, by the way, which the Noble Lord
himself admitted to be next only in importance to the great
question of reform itself; and they must again go unsparingly
to work in reducing the expenditure of the country. With
respect to the latter subject, be had no hesitation in saying,
that considerable reductions might be made in several of the
great departments without impairing the efficiency of any
branch of the public service. The collection alone of the public
revenue amounted to between three and four millions a
year, and this, he was satisfied, without doing injury to any
party, or to the state, might be reduced by one-third. The
Noble Lord (Althorp) had on many occasions expressed him-
self friendly to the consolidation of various departments of the
public service. Now, what was there to hinder the Noble
Lord from consolidating the Excise, Customs, and Stamp Du-
ties Offices ? The army, navy, and, above all, the ordnance,
must in the next Session be greatly reduced. By the weak-
ness of the late Administration the control of the army was
taken from them, and, therefore, there could be no great
wonder that reform had not been more efficient. Was the
army still to be beyond the control of the Government ? Such
a state of things ought never to have been, and if it did con-
tinue, means ought to be, promptly taken at once to put an end
to Hear, hear.) The army was far too great--its nu-
merical amount ought to be reduced. Now that they had ap-
plied a real and substantial remedy to the great grievance of
Ireland—and a costly one it was for this country—they had a
right to expect a reduction of ten to twelve thousand of the
twenty-four thousand soldiers at present quartered in that
country. If the sacrifices made by this country were not to
be followed up by such results, where, in the name of God,
was the policy in agreeing to them ? He, and he was sure
the country at large, would look for most material reduc-
tions in the expenditure for the army, as well as that for
the Colonial and the Ordnance Department. Why, in the
latter department he found that the salaries of officers for
preserving the stores amounted to very nearly twice as much
as the stores themselves : the stores cost 40,0001., the charges
for management 73,000/. Could any one suppose the country
would rest satisfied with such glaring abuses ? The fact was
the whole of the military branches ought to be consolidated.,
These ameliorations must be followed up by others, more
especially those which bore upon the manufactures and pro-
ductive industry of the country. Ministers must meet the
question of the Corn Laws fairly and manfully, and if they
gave way to a little pressure from without, he (Mr. Hume)
did not think they would do the less justice to the manufac-
turer. Those laws injured all classes without doing any real
or permanent good to that one which it was intended should
be benefitted by their enactment. They, in fact, starved one
portion of the community on the plea of giving warmth to the
other. However, he should not go further—he thought he
had made work enough for the Noble Lord--( Hear, and
laughter)—and yet net more than with his many assistants he
was able to accomplish. Let it be recollected the Noble Lord
had plenty of hands to assist him—it was his duty to direct—
to divide and portion out the work—he was the good genius
to whom the people looked to superintend those ameliorations
which other individuals must shape into forms. And if he,
the Noble Lord, only laid down the principles upon which the
subordinates were to act, neither he (Mr. Hume) nor the
people of this country would he thought have much reason to
fear the result.—( Hear.)
Lord A LTHORP said he would not attempt to follow the
Hon Member for Middlesex through all the details of his
speech, but would confine himself to one or two observations
on the main points which he had brought under the considera-
tion of the House. As to the estimates for the different
branches of the public service he must say that he perfectly
agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that they ought to be re-
duced to the lowest amount consistent with the due efficiency
of the public service.—(Hear.) He certainly felt it his duty
to reduce them as much as possible: but he would put it to
the House whether his practice had not been in accordance
with his creed—whether real and substantial reductions had
not been effected by the Government to which he belonged 2
(Hear, hear.) Then as to consolidation of offices, the Hon.
Member had certainly not mistaken his (Lord Althorp's)
opinions. He always approved of such a course—he had al-
ways adopted it when it was possible to do so. At the same
time the principle might be carried out to too great an extent,
and this he considered would be the case if the Customs and
Excise Departments were consolidated. The public service
would, he was sure, be inconvenienced by the adoption of the
principle in this instance. Indeed he did not hesitate to say
that great confusion would be the result. But the Hon.
Member said " how little has been done 1" He (Lord Al-
thorp) would wish the House to look back. He would freely
admit that more might have been done, but he really be-
lieved that no one would fairly charge the fault to the Go-
vernment. --(Hear, hear.) He would ask the Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Hume) if he did not think it right to pass the
estimates early in the Session ?—( Hear, hear.) Then if it
were so, how would Government force on Bills of a compli-
cated nature, involving, perhaps, new principles, and, if not,
so various, and important details ?—( }fear, hear.) Every day
on which the courtesy of the House had given priority to the
Government, Ministers had strenuously exerted themselves,
certainly not to force their measures through, but to get them
on as rapidly as was consistent with their own intrinsic im
portance, and with the respect which was due to the members
of that House. The estimates were not passed till Easter,
and then the Government had pressed on the Poor Law Bill,
esteeming it of greater importance perhaps than any other.
But many other important subjects had been entertained
though not introduced by the Government, and many discus-
sions had taken place, which he hoped would be productive of
good. If the government, however, was to blame, he (Lord
Althorp) was the person on whom the censure of the House