The Sun.
London, England, 1834-03-04 00:00:00

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.

HATTON GARDEN.
Mr. Laing, the magi..trate, summoned several
cabdrivers before Mr. ROGERS.
Joseph Smith, the driver of the cab 1,612, was
the first case called on.
Mr. Laing stated that on Tuesday night last, as
he was pass ng Temple-bar coachstand, the de-
fendant called out to other coachmen, "There goes
the rogue, Laing," and he was immediately
beset by the ruffians, whose behaviour was abo-
minable. He called a policeman, who, by his di-
rections, took the number of the defendant's cab.
Pol•ce constable 84 F gave similar evidence.
Mr ROGERS—You are fined .51., and if you do
not pay it you will be impri..oned two months in the
House of Correction.

The driver of the cab 962 was summoned for a
similar offence.

Mr. Laing expressed a wish that the defendant
should be only ordered to pay the costs.
Mr. ROGERS having consented,
Mr. Laing, addrescng the defendant, said—For
the information of your brethren I will tell you ti at
if I am again insulted I will have every one on the
stand taken into custody.
A fellow named Howell was also charged.
Mr. Laing said that the defendant was one of the
worst of the gang ; but he did not appear to have
thf care of a cabriolet. He was drunk, and acted
as waterman to the stand.
The defendant was then ordered to pay 405., in
default of payment of which he was committed to
prison for one month.
THAMES POLICE.

OUTRAGE By THE COALWHIPPERS —Yesterday
T. PI Carthy, J. Roche, and C. Hoyley, three
athletic Irishmen, coal-whippers, were charged with
being concerned in the assault on the young water-
man t,amed Munns, who was attacked by four men,
at an early hour on Saturday morning, at New
Crane-stairs plying-place, and after being trio!,t
dreadfully kicked and beaten by the ruffians, was
robbed of his money and left for dead.
Mr. Evans, the surveyor of Thames-police, saw
young Munns in the hospital on Sunday afternoon,
who said that a man who lived in Cinnamon-street,
and had a daughter known by the cognomen of
" Peg the blunderer," was one of the assailants, and
that after striking him he held him while the others
kicked him. Hayley's daughter corresponded with
that description.
Munn's father said that his son had informed him
that Cornelius Hayley was the first man who
knocked him down.
The prisoners, who loudly disclaimed all partici-
pation in the outrage, were remanded.

DEPTFORD PETTY SESSIONS.

THE MURDER OF MR. RICHARDSON.

The whole of Su'tday Deptford was in a state of
commotion in consequence of two men and their
wives having been lodged iththe station-house on
suspicion of their being concerned in the barbarous
murder of the unfortunate Mr. Richardson, of
Bletchingly.
A constable of Deptford, named Brown, re-
ceived information that two men, well known about
Deptford as the collectors of rags, bones, glass
bottles, &c., and very queer characters, had borrowed
a cart of a person at Deptford on Wednesday morning
last to go to Epsom, and that they had not returned
the cart. An inquiry was immediately made, and
the men's wives were applied to, and they also ad-
mitted that their husbands had not returned to their
homes. Brown immediately proceeded in quest of
the men, and traced them to Croydon, where he
ascertained they had gone, and took them in their
beds and brought them to Deptford on Sunday.
Yesterday morning the two men and their wives
were brought before Mr. Gordon and a full bench
of magistrates, at a Petty Sessions, held at the
Swan Inn, at Deptford.
It appeared that the male prisoners were seen in
the vicinity of New Cross, on Thursday morning,
first at day-break by Thomas Hill, a locksman on
the Croydon canal, of whom they requested a light
for their pipe!, and in about an hour afterwards by
Burgess, an active constable at New Cross, and so
suspicious was their appearance at the time that he
would have taken them into custody, but he had
not heard of the murder. The men answered in
every point to the description given in the hand-
bells, and the supposition was that they had crossed
the country through Ewell and Cheam to Croydon,
and then come down the canal, on the banks of
which they had slept.
After a long consultation the prisoners were re-
manded.

WRECK IN THE RIVER.—On Friday
evening a large sloop drifted off the Fresh Wharf, and was
carried by the tide, which was flowing very fast, to the
centre arch of London bridge. She was brought up all
standing by the masts, which struck against the bridge,
and were carried away. At the same time a sailing
barge, with full canvass, laden with four hundred quarters
of malt, for Barclay and Co., the eminent brewers, came
athwart the bows of the sloop. The barge, from the
concussion, immediately went down, and the sloop soon
after became a wreck. The loss of the barge's cargo
alone will amount to upwards of one thousand pounds.
IRISH PORTRAITS.—The numerous delinea-
tions of -personal character which occur in Sir Jonah
Barrington's work on the Irish Union, now attracting so
much attention, are illustrated by engraved portraits of
almost all the individuals distinguished in the
affairs of Ireland during the last forty years. Among
these portraits, which are remarkable for their
fidelity and spirit, are the Duke of Leinster, Mar-
quis Cornwallis, Earls of Clare, Charlemont, Ross,
Granard, and Moira ; Lords Castlereagh, Kitwarden,
Hutchinson, De Blaquiere, and Edward Fitzgerald ; the
Bishops of Waterford and Down ; the Right Hon. Henry
Grattan, Mr. Secretary Cook, Dr. Patrick Duigenan,
Major General Matthew, Colonel Vereker, Sir John
M'Cartney, and Messrs. Flood, John Philpot Curran,
Plunkett, Hussey Burgh, Francis Hardy, Gold, Egan,
Richard Dawson, Charles Kendal Bush, Arthur O'Connor,
Robert Emmet, James Napper Tandy, &c.
Owen and Jane Cunningham, mother and
son, from the neighbourhood of Athlone, are committed
to Roscommon gaol, for the murder of James Moran,
whom they killed with a reaping-hook and wooden beetle,
for the paltry eonsi,eration of 21d., a debt be owed
them ! Waterford Chronicle.
TONNAGE SHIPPING.—A bill has been
introduced to regulate the admeasurement of the tonnage
and merchant shipping of the United Kingdom. The
second is the principal clause ; it is as follows:—" The
tonnage of every ship or vessel required by law to be re-
gistered shall, previous to her being registered, be mea-
sured and ascertained while her hold is clear, and accord-
ing to the following rule; that is to say, divide the length
of the upper deck between the afterpart of the stem and
the forepart of the stern post into six equal parts. Depths
the foremost, the middle, and the aftermost of those
points of division, measure in feet and in decimal parts of
a foot the depths from the under side of the upper deck to
the ceiling at the limber strake. In the case of a break
in the upper deck, the depths are to be measured from a line
stretched in a continuation of the deck. Breadths :
divide each of these three depths into five equal parts, and
►neasure the inside breadths at the following points—
videlicet, at one-fifth and four-fifths from the upper
deck, of the foremost and eftermost depths; and at two-
fifths and four-fifths from the upper deck, of the mid-
ship depth. Length : at half the midship depth measure
the length of the vessel from the afterpatt of the stem
to the forepart of the sternpoat ; then to twice the mid-
ship depth add the foremost and the aftermost depths
for the sum of the depths ; add together the upper and
lower breadths at the foremost division, three times the
upper breadth, and the lower breadth at the midship
division, and the upper and twice the lower breadth at the
after division for the sum of the breadths ; then multiply
the sum of the depths by the sum of the breadths, and this
product by the length, and divide the final product by
3 500, which will give the nnmber of tons for register.
If the vessel have a poop or half-deck, or a break in the
upper deck, measure the inside mean length, t readth ,
and height of such part thereof as may he included
within the bulkhead : tnultiply these three measurements
together, and dividing the product by 92.4, the quotient
will be the number of tons to be added to the result as
above found. In order to ascertain the tonnage of open
vessels, the depths are to be measured from the upper edge
thy unit; ANN.

IMPERIAL PA\R lAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, 211Incli 3.

The house met at five o'clock.
Lord KENYON pre.ented a petition from a parish in
Staffordshire for the protection of the church. The noble
lord also gave notice, in the absence of a noble lord who
usually sat to his left hand (Lord Wynford, we believe),
of hi. intention to introduce a bill in the course of the pre-
sent session for the better observance of the Sabbath.

Lord DACRE presented a petition from Sbepton
lett and other parishes, in support of the church establish-
ment. The noble lord also presented a petition from St.
Leonard's, Shoreditch, f'..r the repeal of the house duty.
The Earl ~f MANSFIELD presented a petition from
Kirkcudbright, praying for an alteration in church
patronage.
Lord POLTIMORE presented a petition from the
dissenters of Barnstaple and Honiton, for the removal of
the disabilities under which they laboured.
Lord LlT'f LETON presented a similar petition from
the Prote.tant Dissenters of Evesham, in the county of
Worcester.

Earl GREY presented similar petitions from the Pro-
testant Dissenters of Wellington, and six parishes in the
county of Salop.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER, in presenting a
petition from a person, named William Griggs, of the
Edgware-road, praying their lordships to emancipate
the Jews, would take that opportunity of reminding their
Lordships that during the last session be had stated his inten-
tion to bring the subject of voting by proxy before their lord-
ships during the present session. The question had been
much agita.ed, but had never been brought seriously be-
fore their lordships since the year 1816. Such being the
case, it was his intention on Thursday next to bring the
subject before the house. With reference to the sub-
ject of the petition, it would be recollected that during
last session he had stated his intention, unless some other
noble lord brought forward the subject to introduce the
question relative to the disabiliti, s of the Jews. He
trusted that his noble friend, who had taken so great an
interest in the question, would bring the matter forward,
but unless he did so, he should consider it his duty to
adopt that course.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH considered, with reference
to the first subject to which the noble lord had adverted,
that Thursday was much too early a day to bring forward
so important a subject. That notice affected the privileges
of all the members of that house, and he trusted, therefore,
that the noble Marquis would give at least two or three
weeks' notic- before he brought the subj-ct forward.

Lord BEXLEY observed that whenever the noble mar-
quis brought forward the question relative to the Jews he
should give it his most cordial support.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER, although he felt
himself pledged to bring forward the question relative to
the votes of their lordships' house, had no objection to
put it off a week or two if it was considered necessary.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, in reference to the sub-
ject of the emancipation of the Jews, begged to observe
that no person felt more decidedly thin he did on th•
subject. At the same time he begged to throw out for
the consideration of the noble marquis, whether the
bringing of the subject forward annually was
not calculated to do it more injury than good.
As an evidence of this he would only state the feelings
that bad been excited by the adoption of such a
course on the subject of parliamentary reform and the Ca-
tholic question, and be would very respectfully submit to him
whether the course he was adopting was not calculated to
lessen the chances of success.

The Marquis of WESTMINSTER said, that after
the observations of the noble lord on the woolsack be
would not press the question further.

Lord MELBOURNE laid upon the table the report o!
;he commissioners relative to Irish education.

Lord DURHAM presented several petitions from the dis-
senters of North,impton, Stamford, and several other places,
complaining of the grievances under which they ldb.ured,
and praying for redress. The noble lord observed that
two of these petitions prayed for a separation of the
Church from the State. In that prayer he begged leave
to stare he could not concur. All the other objects of

the petitioners had his most cordial assent. They asked
for nothing which, in his opinion, ought not to he granted
to them. He could not help expressing his regret that the
bill which had been brought into the other House for the
relief of the Dissenters had not gone farther. All their
requests, with the exception of the separation between
church and state, ought to be complied with by the legis-
lature; and he sincerely bcped the time would shortly
come when the whole of their just and reasonable demands
would be conceded. The noble earl also presented a

pe'ition from Kingston-upon-Hull, signed by upwards of
5,100 persons against the impressment system. The
petitioners prayed that a plan of manning the English navy
might be devised less revolting to good feeling, and better
calculated to obtain good naval servants to the crown. It was
some gratification to him that some cf the great officers of the
navy, among whom was Sir E. Codringtcn, had expressed
their clear opinion that naval servants of the crown might
be obtain-d by much less objectionable means.
Earl GREY, on the part of his Majesty's Government,
begged to express his strongest wish to adopt any measure
that would render impressment unnecessary; but at the same
time he must beg to observe that during the war he did
not see how it was to be avoided. With respect to the
other pint to which the noble earl bad adverted, namely,
the grievances under which the dissenters laboured, he
begged it to be understood that because only one bill bad
been introduced upon the subject, it was not, on
that account, to be considered by the house that the
other points were not under the consideration of his
Majesty's government. No man felt more anxious than
he did to afford relief to the dissenters, provided that relief
was consistent with the interest of the established church.
The Earl of DURHAM observed that the declaration

of the noble earl, that the attention of his Majesty's govern-
ment had been directed to the other grievances of which
the Dissenters complained would be received by them with
the deepest satisfaction, as it was supposed that the bill
introduced by the noble lord, the Master of the Forces,
was all that was intended to be done by his Majesty's
government upon the subject at present.
Lord ROSEBERRY presented a petition from Stirling
against any alteration in the church patronage in Scot-
land. The noble lord also presented a petition from the
medical practitioners of Manchester, praying that the law
effecting them, particularly the act called the Apothe-
caries Act, might be altered and amended. The noble
lord also presented petitions from Gloucester and Car-
narvun, for the better observance of the Sabbath.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented petitions from
Cavanish, and other parishes iu the county of Surrey, in
favour of the Labour Rate Bill.
On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the

Exchequer Bills Bill and the Extent in Aids Bill went
through committee, and were ordered to be repotted to-
morrow.

The house then adjourned.

HO USE OF COMMONS', MARCH 3.

The SPEAKER took the chair at a quarter past five.
The Metropolitan Police accounts were brought up and
laid on the table. _

The return of the quantity of shipping which had en-
tered the port of London during the pest year was
brought up and laid on the table.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY brought up the report of the
committee on the standing orders, which was laid on the
table. _ _

A bill for the better paving and lighting of the parish
of St. James, Wtstminater, was brought in and read a
first time.
COUNTY RATES—CHURCH RATES.
Lord ALTHORP gave two notices. The first, that on
Friday next he would move fur a select committee to in-
quire into county rates; the second, that on Thursday the
17th of April he would submit a motion to the house on
the subject of church rates in England and Wales.
Mr. GOULBURN moved for a return of two papers,
to which the noble lord opposite had no objection, hut
which were important, as the period was approaching
when the house would have before it a return of the
increase and diminution of salaries. He wished also that
they should have a list of the offices which had been created
under the act of last session. He would confine his return
to the offices so created, a considerable number, indeed,
with salaries varying from 10,0001. a year to the lowest
possible sum. His motion was rather long, as it corn-
prehended a great number of offices. The hen. member
then moved for a return of the commissioners of the
national debt, with their salaries, &c., the visitera of luna-
tics, the ecclesiastical commissioners, the attendance upon
the privy council, the commissioners of lunatics, to whom
the Lord Ch }ncellor had appointed their salaries, the officers
appointed to assist the East India Company to wind up
their affairs—(Hear, hear)—the India law commis-
sioners, the superintendents of the trade of China, and the
several other officers appointed during last session.
Lord ALTHORP assented to the granting cf the returns.
Mr. LITTLETON brought up the First Report of the
Commissioners of Education in Leland.
Mr. GOULBURN moved for a repot t of the returns of
the Municipal Commissioners in Ireland.
Mr. LITTLETON said that the report would be laid
on the table of that house. .

Ur. YI, HUGHES gave notice that ou the stll 91

April he would move that after the repeal of the house
duty, all persons might be allowed to open as many ad-
ditional windows in their residences as they pleased.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that on the 27th of
May be should move for the total extinction
of tithes ; and on subsequent days that no
one should be entitled to vote for municipal officers,
unless as they voted for representatives in Parliament,
for the vote by ballot, and for the application of that mode
of election to the borough of Warwick.
Mr. LYNCH gave notice that on the 12th of March he
should move for leave to bring in a bill relative to fines

and recoveries in Irel Ind.
Mr. STANLEY moved for copies of the correspondence
of the Secretary of State for the Colonial Department rela-

tive to Australia.
An HON. MEMBER begged to agk the Chancellor of
the Exchequer what was the intention of his Majesty's
government, relative to the Poor Law Commission. We
understood the Noble Lord in reply to state that no steps
would be taken until the report was upon the table of the

house.
Mr. HODGES said he had to complain of a gross
breach of privilege which had been committed by the
forging of the signatures of certain inhabitants of
Leamington, praying that the franchise of the
borough of Warw►ck should be transferred to
Leamington. After a great deal of personal examination,
he would satisfactorily prove to that house that 281 of the
signatures attached to that petition were not genuine. He
begged to move that a select committee be named to
inquire into this gross breach of privilege.
The SPEAKER said that this was an oni.er night,
and he did not know how his motion could come on
before the orders of the day. If the house (should
appoint a select committee to inquire into the matter,
bow could the hon. member tell that it would turn out
to be a breach of privilege ?
Mr. HODGES said, that after the orders of the day
were disposed of, he would move for the appointment of

this committee.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON gave notice of his intention
to move that an humble address be presented to his
Majesty with respect to a grant to be made to Capt. Ross.
Mr. O'CONNELL had to bring forward a subject to the
notice of the house, which he bad mentioned on Friday night
He would state the grounds shortly on which he
considered there ought to be an inquiry di-
rected into the matter. He bad stated that a person
of the name of Dundas in the police force in
Ireland had been appointed to the office of stipen-
diary magistrate to the colonies. Dundas had been
guilty, in the office he held in the police establishment,
of peculation to a very peat extent. When the offence
was discovered, an inquiry was instituted. The vouchers
which he produced to support his accounts turned out to
have been all forgeries, notwithstanding that be had sworn
to the truth of them, under an act of parliament that re-
quired him so to do; so that, besides forgery, he had been
guilty of perjury. The Irish government directed a
magistrate of the county of Wexford to take depositions
against Dundee, which as soon as he beard of he ab
sconded, and had not from that time been heard of
in Ireland, until the report reached Ireland that he had
been appointed to a stipendiary magistracy of the colonies.
It was due to the right hon. gent'etnan opposite to state
that be had conducted himself in the most satisfactory
manner. On Friday evening he stated that be bad never
heard that any charge had been made against Dundas. On
Saturday morning he instituted an inquiry ; he found that
the charges had bred made, and he immediately cancelled
the appointment,which he, without delay, communicated to
him (Mr. O'C.) No doubt some gross fraud had been
practiced by some one in procuring the appointment for
Dundas, and for which be was liable to be punished.
Before, therefore, proceeding to his motion, he begged to
ask the right honourable the S,cretary for the Colonies
whether be felt himself at liberty to mention when the ap-
pointment took place, through whom it was made, if it
was through a recommendation from Ireland, whether it was
intended to indict the individual who procured the ap-
pointment, and whether it was intended to proceed against
Dundas, for the offences of which he was alleged to be
guilty ?
Mr. STANLEY said it would be in the recollection
of the house, that on Friday last the hon. and learned
member asked whether be had appointed a person the
name of Dumas or Dundee, who bad been employed un the
constabulary of Ireland, and who had been dismissed
during the time he (Mr. Stanley) was in office, from that
situation to the situation of stipendiary magistrate in
the West Indies. Now the name of Dundas was a some-
what remarkable name, and it so happened that
one or two persons so named did reside in
the county of Armagh, and were employed in the
constabulary. He had to state, in reply to the hon. and
learned member, that to the best of his belief no person of
that name who had been employed in the constabulary
of Ireland had been appointed stipendiary magistrate
in the West Indies, and iu making that declaration, he
hoped the house would give him credit for not stating
that which at the time he did not really believe—(Heal)—
and th :t he should appoint a person to such a situation who
had been guity of the practices alluded to. On Saturday
morning, however, it was with regret and surprise that
he learned that a Mr. Dundas had been recently ap-
pointed by himself to the situation of stipendiary
magistrate in the West Indies, on the recom-
mendation of a respectable gentleman, whom he had every
reason to place the greatest reliance, and whose recom-
mendation he did not, until that morning, believe to be
otherwise than a correct one. He then found that
Mr. Ltindas was the same person who was involved
in a very discreditable transaction in the ye,ir
1827—three years before be (Mr. Stanley) came
into office. As soon as he learned this, on Saturday morn-
ing, he sent off a revoke of the appointment, and then
he communicated with the hon. and learned gentleman
(Mr. O'Connell) whet he had ascertained. The hon. gen-
tleman had asked him when the appointment took place;
the promise to make the appointment had been made some
months before, but it was understood that no salary was
to be granted until the officer had reached his destination.
He (Mr. Stanley) believed that person bad not yet sailed from
this country; but whether he had sailed or not, the order
to revoke the appointment bad, in accordance with his
(Mr. Stanley's) duty, been instantly forwarded. As to the
party whose recommendation had induced the appointment,
he trusted the house would not ask his name—( Heer,
hear)---but if it were any satisfaction to the hon. and
learned member opposite, lie would state that it was no
gentleman from Ireland—it was no Irishman—(Hear,
hear).—at all events he did not believe the party knew
the facts which had been alluded to..—(Hear, hear.)
the nest question asked by the hon. and learned gentle-
man was, whether it was the intention of the Government
to take any steps against the party who had made the re-
commendation. With regard to the person Dundas having
been a fugitive since 1827, in order to escape a pro-
secution, he would only say, it was no part of
the duty of government to interfere in criminal pro-
ceedings ; neither did the person who recommended
hint know anything of that fact. Since 1827 all
that lie knew if Dundas was, that he was in very dis-
tressed circumstances, and he had allowed him an an-
nuity since that time. He communicated that fact
when he applied for the appointment, and also
stated his determination to continue that annuity
whether be succeeded in obtaining it or not ; therefore it
could not he said that he had made the recommendation
from interested motives.—(Hear, hear.) (Ie (Mr. S.)
knew personally of the high respectability of the party re'
commending, and would himself answer for his ignorance
of the former transactions. lie (Mr. S.) was very glad
that he had an opportunity of cancelling the appointment
before any expense had been enta.led upon the country.--
(Hear and cheers.) He, and lie alone, was open to any
censure that might be attached—(The latter part of the sen-
tence was drowned its loud cries of "No, no.") He
trusted that he bad taken the most straightforward way--
(Cheers)—of rectifying the error be had inadvertently
fallen into, anti that the house would excuse him for the
fault he had committed, which had so occupied their
time.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he, fur one, joined most
heartily in the feeling of the house, and fully believed that
the right hon. gentleman had been imposed upon,
and that when he stated, on a former occasion, that no
such appointment had taken place, he only said what he
at that time believed. There remained, however, one
other consideration, and one only ; that was, not whether
the person who had recommended had been willingly
guilty of improper conduct, but whether the Government
would he doing its duty in allowing Dundas to escape.
The crime of which he h.d been guilty was not of
a private nature, nor committed upon an individual, but
was a forgery upon the public.—(Heir, hear.) He bad
forged passes for the police over the bridge of Wexford to
the amount of 181., and had afterwards verified it by affi-
davit. That man had had in his hands 10,000/.
of the public money, and having been found guilty
of one such transaction, surely, when the first thing
that was heard of him in Ireland was his being
appointed to a situation by the government, the
public had a right to expect some further inquiry
into the affair. He begged leave to inquire of the noble
lord opposite whether be did not think a case had been
made out for a government prosecution—the crime itself
having been committed upon the public ?
Sir R. INOLIS wiehld to know whether it was the

intention of his Majesty's government to institute any legal
or other proceedings with reference to the Glasgow lottery.
He did not mean to draw the house into a discussion, but

it would depend upon the noble lord's (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer's) answer, as to whether the government
had thought proper to make any inquiry, or whether they
intended to submit any -measure on the sn':)ject, what step
he (Sir R. Inglis) would take.
Lord ALTHORP said be bad already given the only
answer which he could give upon the subject. If he
believed that he could prevent any further transactions
with respect to this lottery, he would do so.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that as the property bad been
purchased and sold under an act of Parliament, it would
be utterly impossible now for the government to interfere.

Mr. HUME wished to know whether there had been
any arrangement made respecting the record commission.
He understood that there had been lately a new appoint-
ment to that commission, which it was clear the public
sidered a snecure one. The record commission had
been appointed to make inquiry. No inquiry was made,
the matter stood as before, and-juttice had not been done
for the expenditure which had been effected. He wished
to know whether any such appointment had taken place.
If public officers were subjected to a stricter examination,
and notice given beforehand of their appointment, there
would not be so many complaints as there were at present
of the incompetency of public officers.
Lord ALTHORP said that he was not aware that any
such appointment as that alluded to by the hon. member
had taken place.
Mr. O'DWYER asked the right hon. the Secretary for
Ireland, why it was that Roman Catholics had been ex-
cluded from jury panel in the county of Fermanagh.
Mr. LITTLETON replied that he could afford no in-
formation on the matter. He only wished that the law
should be administered fairly, to the exclusion of no parti-
cular sect.

The house then resolved itself into a committee of supply.

ARMY ESTIMATES.

Mr. ELLICE said he was ready to answer any question
put to him by any hon. gentleman regarding the items in
the estimates ; when the hon. member moved that the
sum of 326,5861. 18s. Hid. be given for the maintenance
of his Majesty's land forces after the Ist of April next.

On tie question being put from the chair, -
Mr. COBBETT, after some observations which the
noise in the body of the house prevented our hearing, said
he would not now offer any
_objection to the number of
men called for, but he would object to the amount of their
pay. 'When the estimates were last before the
house, the right hon. secretary had said he WAS sure no
hon. member of that house would object to the amount of
the pay, but he ( Mr. Cobbett) said he would, and be
thought it should be done without loss of time. Would
the right hon. secretary tell them that be could not get
men for less pay? What was the fact? Taking the lowest
soldiers, the pay was 7s. 6d. a week for subsistence;
besides which there was a sum of 16,000/. to provide
them with small beer or some equivalent. They had also
an alloWance for lodging, candles, coal, and, in short, they
had almost board and lodging, beside the 7s. 6d. a week.
It was not the positive suns to which objection would be
made until the house had made a comparison between it
and the pay of the hard working labourer. There was an
honourable baronet, the member for Buckingh3m, who
did not usually sit upon that but upon the other side of
the house, and who had said, or had almost said, that
he (Mr. Cobbett) had been one of those who caused the
labourers to set fire to the farm yards. There was a letter
of that hon. baronet to the poor law commissioners, in
which he stated that the labourers' wages were raised from
3e. 6d. to ss. a week in consequence of these fires, and
that the farmers were angry that the wages of the labourers
had been increased. The hon. baronet left the house to infer

from that that he thought 53. a week too high for labourers.
If that was the case (sod he regretted to perceive that
the hon. baronet was not in his place; and he bad a
right to blame him for not being in his place), he would
ask the hon. lhronet to take his letter to the poor law
commissioners in his band, and read it to the labourers
on his estate, and then he would ask him to take up the
army estimates, and tell them that he had voted for paying
the lowest soldier 7s. 6d. a week besides clothing,

lodging, firing, and candles. This was what the hon.
baronet ought to do, and then let hon. gentlemen come to
that house and tell the country of the anger and revenge
that had been excited by such treatment in the bosoms of
the labourers. The right hon. secretary had described the
hardships endured by the soldiers in foreign climes.
If the house would take the noncommissioned officers
along with the men and the musicians, their pay would
altogether amount on an average to Iliad. a day, and that
left. a day included the board and lodging, but the
right honourable secretary had said, and this was a very
eloquent part of his statement, that hon. members should
consider the hardships they had to endure abroad—they
were taken to the cold regions and then to the hot
regions, so that they were almost broiling in one region
and frost-bitten in the other.•—(Hear, hear.) Now
the right hon. secretary was a very candid, a very clever, a
very sensible, and a very honest man—(Cheers)—but he
knew nothing of what he was talking about when he
said that.—(Laughter.) He knew no more about the
matter, and that he (Mr. C.) would show him in half a
minute, than the youngest of his children, which, pro-
bably, was in Its cradle. Now he (Mr. C.) did
know something about this matter. To be
sure he had never experienced the di eadful scorching and
broiling heat which the light lion. Secretary had so elo-
quently described, but he had been in at least as cold a
region as any Englishman. He bad been there for
seven years at a time, and the life he had led
there he must say was a very pleasant one.

The summers, which were very pleasant, were spent in
fishing, shooting wild pigeons, rambling shalt in woods,
and visiting the dwellings of the Yankee girls.—(Great
laughter.) The winters were spent in skating on

-
the river, and sitting by the side of a good fire,
singing, laughing, and drinking rum, at sevenpence
a quart.—(Great laughter.) But where did they get
their victuals ? He would make the comparison between
what they had and what the soldiers have, and what the
labouring men of England have who paid for it. They
had 71bs. of flour, that was Whir. of bread,
of the very best pork that could be bought,
six ounces of butter, a quart of pease, or a quart of rice
every week of their lives, which he would pledge himself
was a great deal more than fell to the lot of any
honest labourer's tamily in England.—(Cries of " Hear.")
Was it to he said that men were not to be got to endure
hardships like those for the pay which the men now
received ? The right hon. Secretary asked, would the house
undertake to reduce their pay ?—(dear, hear.) He
would certainly not undertake to break the bargain which
had been entered into with them. The right hon. Se-
cretary had then asked how would the house get rid of them?
Why, were they nut janissaries ? Could the King not get rid
of them ? It he could not, a pretty command he must
have over them at that moment. They got rid of Sir 11.
Wilson without much difficulty. The right lion. Secretary
himself proposed to reduce the aro:), 8,000 ; but that
was literally nothing. Millions were voted and paid
to those two corporations, the navy and the army,
wlhout ever considering the necessity of it, or the effect
of it on the suffering country. It was not his Majesty's
ministers who could put an end to that, or get rid of
such a system without the aid of the house. That house
must assist them, otherwise they could never succeed
in relieving the country from it. It was, indeed,
altogether impossible to disconnect the high paid
soldiers from the proposition of the miserable state of the
poor and the poor laws of this country ; and it was not
to be supposed that the commissioners who had been ap-
pointed were, upon the propositions laid down by two or
three newspaper reporters, and a few barbarian bishops,
to make a report which was to have the effect
of continuing this lavish expenditure, and to take from
the labourers the scanty pittance they now had. It
was proposed by these commissioners to shut up the
poor labourers in a tort of bastile ; but there
would be time enough to combat such a proposition as
that. Without taking up the time of the house further,
he did not intend to oppose this vote, because the men had
been given ; the number named had been considered
necessary ; they must be paid ; he hail no desire to break
the bargain with them ; it could not b., cancelled, and for
this year, therefore, he would not oppose the vote.
Mr. METHUEN said that although the labourers in
the country might not always be so well and regularly fed,
they received more money than the soldiers and were as well
paid. The hon. member for Oldham had selected one subj.:et
from others which be might have better brought forward;
but he (Mr. M.) did not believe any one would say that
the soldiers were overpaid. The hon. member bad
produced many painful facts respecting the labourers,
but it he were to take many classes of labourers
in London, as the shoe-makers, boot-makers, painters, gcc.,
he would find they were better paid than soldiers.
Sir H. HARDINGE was astonisned to hear the com-
plaints of the hon. member for Oldham, and did not ex-
pect that that hon. member would have introduced
a subject whica tended to lower the credit
and character of the soldiers of the country. He differed
entirely from that hon. member, and contended that sol-
liters, so far from being a dissatisfied, were a satisfied,
loyal body of men, although they
received a smaller pito
ranee than any
class in his Majesty's dominions,
except one. The right hon. baronet then adverted to
pale 258 of the report of the commissioners of the poor

laws, as corroborative of his state►»ent that the so)tliers

were not so well paid as even the paupers in workhouses.
The report of the poor law commissioners placed the
soldier the second lowest on the scale as to comfort, lower

even than the transported thief, but whilst be ad.
mitted this, the soldier, he would add, was perfectly con•
tented and happy, if the hon. member woull let him

remain so.

Lord ALTHORP was surprised at the statement of the
hon. member for Oldham, and was sure that there was

not another member in the house who would wish to
reduce the pay of the soldiery. With respect to the poor
law comrnission,be could assure the member and the house
if necessary, that whatever course the government would
adopt respecting the poor law commissioners, they had
not any intention of placing the agricultural labourer in a
worse situation than he was at present.
Colonel DAVIES deprecated any comparison between

the soldiers' condition and that of paupers or convicts.
After deducting all the necessaries of a soldier, such as
food, &c., there remained only three-pence farthing
a day, or 01. per annum.—(Hear.) Taking away
beer money, there remained only twopence farthing. To
prevent illicit indulgence on the part of 'the soldier, it
was found necessary to make daily payments to the sol-
dier, lest too much money should accumulate with the
soldiers ; if a contract was made with the soldiers it
ought to be preserved.
Sir H. HARDINGE could assure the house that
French and Prussian soldiers were much better off than
British soldiers. _ _ .

Mr. COBBETT rose and denied the truth of what
the hon. baronet had read from the book on the table.
He only imputed to soldiers a wish to live well upon the
earnings of the labourer. He had done so himself when in
Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and in spite of what
had been said of the sufferings of the soldiers, they had
enough of every thing, and more than enough.
Mr. ELLICE said he had reduced the number of sol-
diers, and as to reducing the pay, the house would not
consent to a breach of existing contracts.
Mr. GUEST addressed some observations to the Com-
mittee on the propriety of reducing the pay of the house-
hold troops to the same rate as that of the troops of the
line ; but the hon. gentleman spoke in such a low tone of
voice, that his observations were inaudible in the gallery.
He concluded with moving that 68.6991. be deducted
from the vote, with the view of carrying into effect his
proposition for equalizing the pay of the Guards and other
troops. .

Air. ELLICE said that he could prove by aculations
what he had stated on Friday night, that the Guards, as

a corps, including all their officers, cost less than an equal
number of the Infantry of the Line, making allowance
for the penny additional which was given to them in con-

sequence of the extra duties. Or; a comparison of the
expense of seven battalions of the Guards with seven bat-
talions of the Line, both containing about 6,440 bayo-
nets, it appeared that the Guards cost 210,5081., or about
451. 7s. Sd. per man; whilst the Line cost 200,1081.,
or about 421. 3s. 7d. per man, the difference being very
trifling and much more than accounted for by the additional
penny per• diem, granted to the former in consequence
of their having to perform duty in the metropolis. Con-
sidering the additional' duty which fell upon them, and that
the increase was one of very long standing, he thought it
was of a nature which did not call strongly for a reduc•
tion, which would create great dissatisfaction.—(Hear.)
Reference had been made to the Life Guards, but this
force was, as it were, attached to the Crown, and formed
part of its state and dignity. Still the expense of the
Life Guards was much over-estimated ; and he could as-
sure the hon. member opposite, that they had only nine-
teen more horses on their effective establishment than in
1792.—(Hear.) There was certainly some difference
between the two descriptions of household troops, the
Life Guards having 3d. per day more than the Blues.
How this difference was, he could not tell ; and his atten-
tion had just been called to the circumstance. He though:-
it would be but justice to the men to place them on an
..quality, and he would do all in his power to reduce the
difference; but he could assure hon. gentlemen opposite,
that it was more easy to propose such a thing in that house
than to effect it.—(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. M. Attwood, Sir FL
Hardinge, Colonel Evans, and Mr. O'Connell,
Mr. T. ATTWOOD condemned the attempt to cut
down the'salary of the soldier, and disapproved of those
reductions in the army. He would he glad to see large
reductions in high quarters, but he deprecated such low
and paltry economy ; those miserable attempts to pinch
and screw a petty saving from the hard earnings of the
unfortunate soldier.—(Cheers and laughter.) The hon.
member for o;dham had said that the pay of a private
soldier had of late years been doubled. Why so it had,
and so had the salaries of the ministers and the judges.
Cut them down half too.—(A laugh.) The rent also
had been doubled.--(0h ! and great laughter.) Yes it
had ; the rent of land had been equally and fraudulently
raised.—(Oh.) He deprecated this candle ends and cheese
parings economy.—(Laughter.) What, were they going
to do this when they would want an increased force ? The
honour of the nation had been much neglected for want of
competent force, and England had not assumed a proper
position of resistance towards Russia. He bad seen ►,he
pretty recommendations of the poor law commi!-sioners.—
(Question.) It was the question—for a magistrate had
said, that if those recommendations were carried into effect,
it would take 40,000 men to preserve order in the county
of Kent, and this he would from his own knowledge prove,
that they would require 20,000 men to keep Birmingham
quiet if those suggestions were adopted.—(Oh.) To give
the house some idea of the subject, he would just tell them
how the paupers in his parish were employed, and their pay,
which they might compare with that of the soldier. He bad
the list delivered into his own hand byone of the parish offi-
cers in December last. These paupers were employed by the
officers in wheeling sand and stones.—(Question.) It
was the question. Sixty-one able bodied paupers were
employed in wheeling sand. This was the number of
those who wheeled sand.—(A laugh.) It was no laugh.
ing matter : be wished some of the hon. members who
laughed had to wheel wheelbarrows full of sand all day

long ; they would not hue) then.—(Renewed laughter.)
The single men were only allowed Is. a day; a married
man with one child Is. 4d. ; with three children Is. '7d.,
and with four er more 2s. Now these wheelbarrows full
of sand—(Laughter)—The hon. member (whose manner
throughout was particularly vehement) said he was sur-
prised what hon. members could find to laugh at. 11,
did not approve of such low rihaldry.—(Loud laughter.)
Well, this wheelbarrow full of sand weighed 1401 b., which
those labourers had to wheel up hill, and then to wheel the
empty barrow back again, making a mile and a half. This
_ .

was to be done 16 times in the course of the day, being
a 21 miles' march, for which these men got ls. I3ut eight
of these miles they had to wheel the laden barrow up hill
He should allow six miles more for that.—(A laugh.)
That made altogether 30 miles a-day. which these Bir-
mingham button-m daers had to go with their barrows,
and only for Is. Thirty miles would be a tremendous
march even for soldiers, brought up to marching, though
makers?
ttbheeyo,wmooneldt
sduOchit
afomr
atrhceh dailyglo
of
be their
to
thoseou n ;oYOr b u What,
n
Mr. HUME said, the hon. member who had just sat
c
down seemed to feel offended at the jocularity with which
ro
some of his remarks had been treated by the house. But
really he (Mr. flume) had listened to him from the com-
mencement of his speech with considerable anxiety to
ascertain whether he was in earnest or not.—( Hear, hear.)
He could scarcely believe the hon. gentleman was in ear.•
nest, particularly in the latter part of his speech.---(Loud
cheers.) He had stated some things, certainly, which
were very proper to be brought forward at a proper time.
...—(Hear, hear.) The hon. member said these poor men
were unable to exist on so small an allowance, and yet he
wished the army increased, of course in contemplation 01
a war. But it was unnecessary to add to the strength of
the army that his Birmingham friends might be better
paid. Was not such an addition likely to produce a con-
, trary effect ?—(Hear.) The- hon. gentleman had spoken
of the encroachments of Russia, but would the hon.
gentleman, in his chivalry, have sent out armies to Warsaa
and Constantinople ? If so, the addition must have been
a pretty large one.—(Hear, hear.) It really appeared as
it the hon. gentleman were anxious to drive the country
into a war, in order to afflict it with a deluge of paper.—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") If the hon. member,
from his experience, was not satisfied of the real conse-
quences and melancholy results of that system, he was
glad to say the majority in that house took a very opposite
view to that entertained by the hon. member. We had
made one false step, but we bad got out of the scrape
pretty well, though not without being tolerably well
scorched, and never, he trusted, ,would they go back to
such perilous times.—(Hear, hear.) He asked the hon.
m. tuber how he reconciled this proposition to the pledges
given to his constituents ? The hon. member had pledged
himself to economy.
Mr. ATTWOOD—No, no.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME—WeII, at least his constituents will expect
it. The hon. gentleman bad supported the Reform Bill,
and was not cheap government the object of that Bill ?
(No, no, from Mr. Attwood.) Ready, then, he (Mr.
Hume) did not know what the object was.—(Hear, hear.)
And after the description which the hon. member bad
given of the distress prevailing in Birmingham, which
certainly called aloud for reduction, his proposition to in-
' crease ;he army was one of the most monstrous and on.

e ailed the saving candle ends and cheese ; be. slg°
timely he ever heard.—(lleir, hear.) The hon.
complained of them, but for a very different reason ; val
because be wished to see more such parings. He be
heard nothing since the last debate to induce him to change '
is opinions that mote men might be reduced ; but the
e should
house having declared against him on that point, h
toot again introduce the subject,
tut would merely statestage
hat he did not at preeent deem visib to reduce .
pay of the men.—(Hear, bear, bear.) Still the expendi;
tore for this department was very onerous. We were sot
in a state in which we coul I possibly continue i
thusddeu
And if any
prose of six millions for the army.:sittia-
pressure should come upon the country, in whatd
if
they
tion would his Majesty's Government be Place the
‘vent on tasking her, even in peaceable to
therefore, protest
most of her strength? He must still,
There were
against the scale of our military expenditure• ttene
two or three items to which he wished to call the ao
the
mernbier i s
tion of the committee. And, first, with respect t
ment, by the right lion. o-entleman, of 30,000/. a ye:a_
recruiting. A saving had been effected in that depart,
which was satisfactory as far as it went ; but he ,s,
at a loss to understand why though our ranks were all
filled up, yet the country was still saddled with the expen .1
of 10,0001. a year for recruiting. There was also antebia-
pense of 2,000/. fer recruiting of colonial corps, and
ht
at a time when all recruiting for them was stoPPed' T of
I
next item to which he wished to advert was, the charge
119,0001. a cline.der the head of mess-money for t
officers of the The right hon. gentleman bad re*
duced the table money of the Guards from
4,000/. Why did he not reduce the other ? But eV;
the 4,0001. still retained as table money for the Guar If
appeared to him to be too much. Surely that Was
much for seven individual,. [An bop. member obsert!de
that there were thirteen.] Even for that number tl_,_
sum was large. Besides the allowances to officers WWI.:
on the march, by route, of 4.9621., and the allosvances I.
aid of regimental mess of corps, in Great Britain, ta
Ireland, in the West Indies, and in Bermuda, of 8,5501'1:
there was an extra allowance to Rifle corps of 04°
What was that ? There were also allowances to officers
commanding, and to acting staff officers, and non-c°r
ufssioned officers of depots of regiments on foreign service,
of 9,479/. Why did not that form part of the genersl
expenses of the depots ? Then there were travel'
and expenses of officers, and varioue other iteta:
under the head of " Regimental Contingencies'
which might well admit of curtailment. He co
at a loss to understand how his Majesty's pres. nt Govern.
meet could look the house in the face, retaining, as tbeie
did now they bad power to curtail it, that expendito.%
6,000/. to
against which, when they bad not the power to curtail .%
guardwhich a
be
ewas Dublin
persuaded Castle.
would This
they exclaimed so loudly anti justly. Besides the table ri
St. James's, for the officers of the Life and Foot Guare;
thheartefolass
ofa tfaabolteiona,llowwaasnwceitohfdrloo4l. fortbe oizoerast:,,
ls
atone which induced him to wish that the Lord Lieuteoao e
manifold llowances hel,
advantages. There were other 3 , 110
officers which granteu to t i,
were understood to have been
officersnet who enjoyed them when they were so granted, aa,,,
to their successors; and yet to those successors the„
either allowances
were still continued. All these items raighthb ',
ther withdrawn or diminished without any injury ° te,r '
hservice ; but, knowing the hopelessness of the atternP".
e would not offer to the committee any specific redact°. '
Mr. ELLICE express d his -• we boa'
e persuasion that I a•
friend the member for Middlesex would derive sea° - 0
tisfaction from being informed that the number of met
voted in pursuance of the present estimates was 130%
wasbe withdrawn
attended n
oneftfrom
nwp Ireland,igt h I many
a Pe
sY t r snage.-t
greater, as he supposed, than the number voted ill ~,,
}airs 1822 and 1823. All the colonial troops weeetio
prehended in the present estimates, which was not cesit
case with the estimates of 1822 and 1825. The elsoo
therefore, of the present estimates beyond those °f„i„, be`
and 1823, instead of being 10,000 men was
°l, lre
tween 5,000 and 6,000. That was a 'fact 1111% tbe
thought would be satisfactory to his hon. fried -nt
be
house. With regard to the recruiting deparusenotlej
agreed with his hon. friend in some respects.
earedfle°o
that the expense of that department had aPP ~ hie
rather too high. But he had done all that it Was %sib!,
power to do on the subject. He had trade every 1):, bot
representation to the competent authores upon d'is'vjeti
he had been told by them that if the recruiting bed,
thosei recruiting districts, and that thereby
were reduced, as the recruiting was confiaeJ to
9toliels i
quarters, it would soon become necessary to re- aildi'
a gra fail to
from
tons. Fer instance, they were now
be very
expense would be incurred. He would o°l ible,4l
a very watchful on this point, with a view, if ess con'
futurenetted
d period, to diminish the expeaditnefe wolf
with it. It must be recollected that
fro°
the whole of the regiments which came "---eslotlt'
our colonial possessions, came home perfect
home
India in that state. When a regiment was
if i 0 ,
v,
ene From India the soldiers who were fit for service tab% ota,
it d to join other regiments in that country' witabt:e °ere
v.ious purpose of avoiding the expense that by
eroding
OP
sinned by conveying them to England, an
ndbYleurt lira
r men to India to fill their places. Bats t id o 1 a
those skeleton regiments came home, they Oil „ Ole
but giustauseoldeb
fill. d up by drafts from other regitnents,
up by recruiting. There were other circurnstaadeaction itre
prevented at the present moment any flotber rke e a Freat r
the recruiting department; but be hoped to in
frienda might Jo,
reduction in it by and by; and his hon• og be coe,./,.
pend upon it that he would reduce it as Inet, that boulo
There was another item on which be Ornei. jdieseSto
fered from his hon. friend the member for 6.1, office, it
well as from the hon. baronet, his predecesolilok tssto
member for Dundee. He certainly did t,, 0001 0,
would be a great hardship to reduce to 07 regoeshr
expecting a reogi.niero
mess allowances to the officers of mare
friend d tbel 4
thought contingencies of that description nng ocoollie
Undoubtedly he so far agreed with his hon. Ir!elin perlir,
come with greater propriety into the treasurY thattade'
With respect to the table for the King's flna,edegeeresealeirio
had existed almost from the revolution to in' r riety ,ennuis
the expense under that head, and
riod. He bad gone as far as he could with Pr tbet24,
committee would not consider the present item
f triel
unreasonable. be thoug
of 4,ot'
„via a,,,
Colonel WOOD wished to explain tlie_, ° ;00'4
mess allowances to regiments of the line. tie Ithen laire,
the time when there were no such allowances, "
ort tbrto
of the officers had nothing but their
an I when it was very painful to be present at a 's,ea.so
mess, and see several of the officers eitheerilos; offateio
represented to his late Majesty
round without taking any, because they
cc?rcurnstaceedhes
pay to sureciate4A
This
pay for it, or else quit the table.
as to the l°
be was Regent, and after some consideration
~
advisable spet,
mode of remedying it, it was deemed
increase the pay of the officers, but to make a sriaoider°,lo
since, which would allow of the consumption 0 a oait,',,
quantity of wine at the mess tattle, and there pee
ro Ifto
olTeers of the army to take a moderate quaae;tAY def°llo
wilehostvher. gentlemen. When the gallantry an
fights 9
hid' the British army was at that till os d/b'isil
battlest
the.. of the country were considered, be ''''iepicPsg-r„,"
m t anybody would contend that that waste diloo- if
and he
Such was the history of the - Wit", #
he hoped thy would never be withdrawn: roil it
George
spect to the pay of the soldiers, it bad been 'rje
3°-
797 the 1796 the Fourths "or
1 , year h • f fictreitf'
ellgs
ailing been one 0
tied never been increased 1,0 w° d.
since.
Sir HENRY lIARDINGE hoped, that if t „ Oosod
~f 4,00 W. a year for the table of the officers or
should prove insufficient, the right bon. germ
restore the iem to its recent amount. Wil.et! 'hoe Feat
Ilardinge) held the office now held by the right 'hoe
that if the outer (,
tleman, e found, upon investigation,
8..0 _B oel
the brigade of Guards enjeYei the same
the
;op
lei
coals, candles, &c., which were granted to .
co reotiote
the regiments of the line, they Would til villit 1i.,0
12,0001. a year. Sure he was, that if theLe'oorLe!
gentleman had left the item for the table Of tj: boo trio
would ~., 09
6,0001., a great majority of that house w„f tu' o,i
him out in doing so. The establishment '' ry 00e ir
. pre .. riog ,d,
mess was most valuable to-the public. osioe I,
dlow that the discipline of the Guards, c° eforte:oll
to r
duties • which they might be called up o 0 diopitt 0,4
at the highest importance; and that do
soy at: er
be endangeredthe table were to be ed SO ''' i
the officers were to go in their uniforms aa r
1;004
coffee-houses. .he 500 oil
Mr. ELLICE had looked carefully at : Off,
was of opinion that 4:000/ ufficie°' be Ills
. was s , dot at
Sir HENRY HARDINGE repie°7 s-ecretorYthe 1
I,oked carefully at the subject, both aa,,e-d that 4,0
and as an officer, and he was perose'ribed. riot
tractor could not go on at the sum Pre'ceiolt Ibatotoo/'
Lord DARLINGTON was also of 1-ni to 4tv be
injudicious to reduce the item from 6,°°'-; t. MI:
iosofficao all t no'
that the latter sum would be found ' Ou
Sir HENRY HARDINGE observed, tbacoe foe
bet
had said was to recommend 9°llll
that, if it. 000 "
sufficient, it should be incremed• friend the olio(
Mr. ELLICE would assume his boo.
the .aele 1
for Middlesex, who had spoken on the '-1,00 '-jeerlie
much good sense and candour ---(S°l:l3eA '6o°4/ 5
made an observation which we could not "i-oliebe- .1,11 of
He coquetting with the hon. tneinbil for iilot heivide
was incapable of doin so with any one. meelli Ifr
his duty to attend neithergh recno— alle
to t e , 4 00
111 11941 friend, still Author to dioun" '

for the labia of the Guei is nor to the recommendation
• feurrtetlin a dtffercnt to' restore that allowance to its
siandard.
• Mr eys
nit -`IIII3ETT expressed his astonishment that the
_,..te
ra "the Guards could consent to cansume 4,000/. a-
-I.:itr at their table, while so many of their poor country-
, v; Were subsisting on twopence half•penny a-day.
%esti' HENRY HARDINGE repeated his former argu-
h sadlt in favour of the larger allowance.
ier.HUME observed, that if an allowance of nineteen
each did not satisfy the officers of the
?heard!em.: hae-daY
was at a loss to know what would satisfy
This he knew, however, that if they ate and drank
more than tot
hat amount, they would not be very fit for
duty afterwars.—(A laneb*)
.Mr, T.
ATTWOOD observed that he bad been twitted
With constantly introducing his favourite topic of paper
th.rn°lll. It was because he felt its vital importance to the
pops-411Y) and he would bring it forward whenever the op-
' sp., init7 presented itself. The bon, member for Middle.
Ast-sW4"minentinz on what had. fallen from him (Mr.
ate uU(I) tO the indiffsrence ot Government to British
leo ...414 exhibited in some of the recent occurrences on the
%Luke; had imputed to him a wish to plunge the
C.trY into war in order to secure the introduction of
iew"l °jar! venrite paper-money. He wish to plunge the country
, to - But from the low mind low insinuations were
irexPected.— (A laugh.)
es JOHN BYNG said, that the pay of the officers of
muds was inferior to those of the Line. The Guards
:,;(11 4,000/. for their mess, and that was all ; seven
,„:414-I„'ena of the Line were allowed 1,4001. fur wine only,
seven battalions of Guards were not allowed one
-7414.
'l7Aftt
%Pit. r —en, words from Mr. HAWKINS and Mr. ELLICE,
:
'WKS agreed to.
'.(11,-,"e'nezt vote was 122.143/. 34. 5,1., for the pay of
.b3:ll4lBtaff officers and officers of the Hospitals serving
Is Majesty's forces, and of the garrisons of the
•?!.0,41.e Ports, the Tower of London, and Windsor
•41. ,In proposing this vote,
!A,),;e;l-LICE said he would state to the house
ne had not been able to reduce the Staff
as 'these" M conformity with the recommendation of
ewe-"Mnsittee last session. In his application to the
Lander in-Chief for the usual reports on which
lara;Te the estimates of the year, he had entreated h
the attention to this point, in order to comply withis
rtsbat4Pectations of the house, if it could be done with due
V4,l;:_t° the efficiency of the service. The answer of the
th_--"dee-in-Cnief was not in favour of the reduction,
ground that the mode of effecting it—namely, the
• -"alidar
of
and Adjutan•-Gene
lot
as -ion the Quarter-/Master
etP, Would be anything hut advantageous. tol thed
thip-tav'raioe. The duties of each department, his or -
Itibil-feds to be as distinct as possible, one being for the
hib,tram t clothing of the troops, the other for their -
'
tsiely-°,,nl and any attempt at consolidation would be cer-
, array -titaental to the efficiency and comfort of the
t•'6''''ParteD....ee letter also stated that the heads of these de-
aZ4 Were part of the personal staff of the King, and
"Ugh the army had been doubled since 1792, the
waillat of the staff had not been at all increased. That
'
twillvbat had been written to him (Mr. Ellice) by the
""Atinlisnderelo-Chief. Still he should, by the next year,
jhore thoroughly into the subject, and he hoped,
--awilZare, the hon, member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume)
104 Place confidence in his (Mr. Ellice's) pledge, not
,•,,ifelkod one single shilling which he found could with
t%t2' be saved.—(Hear, hear.) On the subject of the
tob_4rehip of Windsor Castle, he must also request the
tine gentle forbearance. This office was one which
• due .4 fact an appanage of Royalty, and necessary to its
44444 and dignity. He certainly could nut look upon
I.office, and, therefore he hoped if be put it
.11,4„ military
not
o`,,lntne other and more fitting head the house would
Myth leot to it.—(Hear, hear.) The right hon. Secre-
reduced the vote to 121,8481., which was put
• 41eta Chairman.
`a ME said some persons might think it extraor-
‘. •
0410,1,__that be, a civilian, should choose to give opinions
• aleen-i'rta Purely military ; but the fact was, there were
Without cowing eraning to right conclusions on these matters
aaas'a.-` ef necessity belonging to the service. For his
snaurrta he was not surprised at the letter of the Com-
beiisper*M-Chiet, for he never yet kneW of any attempt
of ,r lade to cut down public departments, but the head
• ti44.1a4 those about, found innumerable reasons for
bon, :lag it as it stood. He wished to ask the right
been -tiee"arY two questions—first, whether anything had
Mittee7' LI regard to the recommendation of the cont-
. - subject of the es, ablishment of a system of
the enor a 'a the navy ? and secondly, on the subject of
tented to fees
at present paid by officers when pre-
! toted
the as
abroad. Compare the amount
oin,B3lbolo.e
.aSaupdens es of the staff were in 1792, with those
mark the result. In 1792 they were
"144'24 pine,teB3°/ 104,8001. They were in times of
establisbnyew.; ?et the enormous charge of the military
ln
l's
office was 7601.,
but,92 the cost of the adjutantt-general's
!crease of 12,0001. a
Year,tn they were saddled
_deputy adjutan-genThey had an adjutant general,
• Major Frith, all of saeevais Major Gareiiner, and a third
Would state, useless;itna, Were
Ily mute
under those circumstances. most ,
He could not be quite
e could take upon Five
of
the
"luarters h officers at head-
himself to state, had nothing
head-
Whatever to do. Was Such a state of things, be was pre-
Ca._ gravely to inquire, to be allowed to exist? He (Mr.
") Well knew that lie should be met by the hon.
" Rall • ant officer below him, who would triumphantly
Nu;
• elpiCte*if our army, in 1792, was in such a state of dis-
: it.ine, Presented such an ix posing and adequate force as
lid at present ? Be was prepared to deny the propriety
peolleh a question. The army, in 1792, was not pro-
Joel governed, and, therefore, there could be no reason, in
White or fair argument, to adduce that as an example, on
theY Were at the moment to draw an accurate con-
'. 410 n 7.,
°No/. ns.° Pay of the Commander-in-Chief now was
14,_ .1 the Military Secretary 2,7001. The responsibi-
. • NL.was in the hands of the Hot se Guards, which was not
41:dor fitting. he house wbich had to pay the momi,
tecuthi have the ex penditure under its own control. The
tolt ItlatY at Warought to he the responsible agent, and
Chiep ave to take information from the Commander-in-
Itlai.i; Thirty thousand pounds were thus expended,
;, the ;0 onder an economical plan, would be reduced to
to Was of that sum. If the responsibility he had alluded
hate- in Operation, the hon. member for Dundee could
Was Riven the house more valuable information than he
'• keren:l'l'd to do, and an ex-member of that house (a late
1:40142Y St War) might have spoken, as from his own
kat aa -',""3, and not have given the dictum of the Com.
eatire:e"3Chief.--(Hear.) The establishment in India
f th ku 'Token of, it was) on a different footing from that
kltain:ing's forces ; if the latter we; e to the same effect,
i4thp,nA Of three•fjurths might be made in the present
, a„,h'ure• Mr. Hume concluded by proposing an
etin-ent, that the estimate proposed, 120,8481. 18s. 6d.
to 112,048/. 18s. 6•!.
44ee;ilel DAVIES supported the necessity of reduction.
Itiese-Yentliture of our colonial establishments was int-
' ' 46a there ought to be—they imperatively called for—
. 'teasel! Most searching inquiry. The lion. member
ytithit-m lo read various extracts from the publishe
'es, in. support of his position. The governor of
Ifad „et seanada had an allowance t f 9,600/ per annum,
for other items that could not be defended.
14vor1,9„4ition existed
Pto place the colonial government oLf
ould "t'Y Upon the rincip'e of retrenchment, salaries
• 1 the lkit, then, be permitted, which were not called for
Izetat-ttlhature of the service, and which the nation could
blr v Moment afford to give.
Nam; ELLICE would assure the hon. and gallant
4itt,,,vvi that if he had made these objections above st-tits
tallertl-Ze,n,t observations need not have been made. From
eeo sal' given tae'ore that comnaittee, he would have
:easy "erenlly impressed. Sir James Kempt had. be-nh
"velas,ll4", and the evidence which he bad given might e
Zual. -,,,,,e(Melusive. The Canadians did not require the
h,were4,;;e:allant member to t nlighten them, their eyes
Z4"reWas al well as his. He should have known, and
114,,
the Lon member for Oldham knew that
therefore •
erefore would hear him out in his (Mr.
°reld 4,l4;aternents. The governor of that province,
• ar f° het had a pension-4,0001. a year was not too
to ka Ll;,th-at officer. The evidence of Sir litnes Kempt,
(4,;ad b..fore allotted to, had stated.that.that noble
had to pa 2,3001. for furniture In fact,
414 gal
eneral)
felt a disiyuclioation to go on such services.
• *ill Eellerali
Al.• rhea, W Y came back beggars, and the chief question
te,94•G..- L how they were to live in such colonies.
eitae as Who Gibi s bad paused, and Sir Cohn Campbell,
gov„°t On affluent man, had made objections to go
oaa l`rnor to Nova Scotia. It Lord Aylmer's pen.
w-at it w'ele.n, Mooted up stairs, it could have been debated
ttit tne proper place, and he considered the house
tl et'at arena for their starting such objections.n
lonhilecrety4llolNGE concurred with the right ho
Pervie St War, respecting the nature of the c.o•
ttaa Itt tte h°n,
•r, " ; but he could not so far coincide with him
in "ns,and gallant member who had preceded him
Pro error
a„ Per pia 'n selecting the floor of Parliament as the
iyh44 Wei.-eeventee°.ll3alte these objections, which he csnst-
, bith •el• 1,5 d , and proper to be matte. General
.Lord.e
ti Ter, he iihu:en alluded to—he was a most distinguished
,dislienekn
i'vl,aieryid With honour in the. Peninsula, and
bit "It, yq eh he had received for his hard and
tltaen i:mat honourable services, ought not to have
mio aCcouna in the present debate.—(;ear,

hear.) There was a difficulty, no one who knew the ser-
vice could deny it, of Betting officers of that rack in the
profession, which slettill cowman" atteirtion, and insure
confidence, to take gevsrnor or deputy-governorships in
the colonies. The presedt Governer of 13aibadoes was
seduced to go out, and the fear of being beggared forced
him to entreat to he recalled.—(Hear, hear.) Having
stated thus much about the colonial service, he should
refer to the staff, upon which he was sorry to find there
was a difference of opinion.
Mr. ELLICE, across the table, dissented from this.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE—WeII, if there be no
doubt, there seems to be that approaching to a doubt.
General Macdonald was a most distinguished officer, and
if there was a difference of epic i,te hetween the right hon.
Secretary and the Commander of the Forces, it ought to
he referred to the noble lord opposite. The system of
corporeal punishment had been mooted ; if it was to be
modified, power ought to be given to the staff to re-
gulate its infliction. Mr. Robinson once said, when
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he was not to he
badgered into concession.—(hear, hear, hear.) He
was not desirous that any Minister should be badgered
—(Loud laughter)—but he was desirous to state
facts. When he had the honour of filling the situation of
Secretary at \Star, the hon. member for Middlesex moved
the abolition of the office of Army Clothier, and the office
ceased to exist. What was the result? Colonel Duffy
was examined, and it appeared that the service lost by
the suppression of the office—that out of 365 days, the
Inspector was employed 350 in the duties of his office.—
(Hear, hear.) The hon. and gallant member then pro-
ceeded to enter into some details connected with the Staff
of the Army, in which he contrasted the military cha-
racter of Sir Gorge Murray with other distinguished
officers, and contended that his opinion of the necessity of
keeping up an efficient Staff ought not to be slighted by
the house. Sir Willoughby Gordon was opposed to any
reduction, considering this branch of the service to be his
first consideration.—(Hear.) The hon, member for
Middlesex had stated there was a' Royal disinclination to
reduce the Staff, and why did he state se? B-cause the
right hon. secretary had not gone into certain details;
was it, he would a-k, desirous to bring the noble lord
opposite and the Commander of the Forces into collision?
—( Hear.) Every effort had been made to obtain most
accurate information before the committee; and in page
150, to which he should refer, Lord Fitzroy Somerset had
stated there were five majors-general in Ireland. Could
the number be more reduced ? Major-General Bingham,
when on his death-bed, bad said, that the fatigues of his
duties had shortened the measure of his existence. Other
general officers had likewise complained, and their number
could not he put upon a more moderate estimate. The
country should have, in time of peace, a force always
adequate, from which a war complement might grow,
otherwise it would be had policy, and would lead to a
ruinous expense. The hon. and gallant member next
alluded to the office of governor of Windsor Castle. It
was then held by a most distinguished officer—Lord Mun-
ster. It was said the appointment of this office would be
taken off his Majesty's hands. Earl Munster had served
his country for twenty-seven years, seven of which were
passed in the Peninsula, and three in India. He had had
three horses shot under him, and he thought such an
officer could not be too well rewarded. He agreed,
however, that it would be much better if the governor-
ship of Windsor Castle was not held under military
tenure. In the year 1833 there were thirty military
governments, which were given and distributed to officers
for having well discharged their duty towards their country,
and in consideration for their able services. In 1792,
the number of military governments for the army were half
the number they were at present, and there were only
about half the number of officers to be recompensed in
this way, yet the sum then expended in the shape of mili-
tary governments amounted to 30,0001. a year. The
Committee that sat last year bad reduced these govern-
ments to the sum of 18,0001. a year. Was it, he would
ask, fair, was it just, either to the army or to the officers,
that, when their number was doubled, a paltry reduction
of 12,0001. should be asked for? As these governments
were rather given to officers as honourable marks of die
tinction than by the way of emoluments for their services,
general officers accepted them, no matter how small they
might be. For this reason General Don, on his return
from Gibraltar, was satisfied to accept a small govern-
ment, which did not yield him more than a shilling a day.
He accepted it, because he looked upon it as an honourable
mark of testimony for his services borne to him by his
sovereign. Se far from emoluments of this description
being now increased, they were no more than they were
at the period of the battle of Minden, and they were less
than they were in 1792. The right hon, gentleman con-
cluded by expressing an earnest hope that his M %jetty's
government would take the earliest opportunity of placing
the officers of the army in this respect on the same foot.
ing as they stood in the year 1792, which would be only
doing an act of justice to them and to the service to which
they belonged.
Lord EBRINGTON•begged to confirm what bad
fallen from his right hon. friend below him respecting
colonial expenses, and respecting the officers employed in
the colonies. In consequence of the recommendations
contained in the report of the committee that sat upon
this matter, reductions had taken place in those depart-
ments. With respect to reductions being made in the
staff at head quarters, all the evidence given before that
Committee, except that adduced by the right hon. mem-
ber for Dundee, went to show that that staff was not too
large. The noble lord here read several extracts from the
evidence given before the committee already alluded to, to
show that this staff was not too extensive. He had one
word to say respecting the governorship of Windsor Castle.
He was extremely glad to see that this vote had been
taken out of the estimates—for if the hon. member for
Middlesex had moved a reduction in this particular item,
he should have felt himself bound to vote for the reduc-
tion. He had always held that this appointment—namely,
the governorship of Windsor Castle—was not an army
appointment, nor was it bestowed in consideration of
military services. His Majesty always bestowed the place
lon one of his personal friends.
Sir RUFANE DONKIN made a few observations,
most of which were inaud.ble in the gallery. He was
understood to say that military governments were regarded
more in the light of honourable rewards, than of emolu-
ments for cervices performed. In France the 811111 of
365,000/ was annually allowed for military goverremen s,
whilst we, who were a nation that could so well afford it,
allowed only about 18,0001. a year for the sime purpose.

Sir• H. PARNELL said, that in the course of the de-
bate he had been asked whether lie adhered to the opinion
he had given while at the Horse Guards, rel ttive to err.
tain military appointments there. He certain!), did still
adhere to that opinion, and whilst in office lie had learned
much respecting that particular department. The ex-
penses of she establishment at the Horse Guards ansonnted
to 28,000/. a year, arid whilst he was there, he stw that
there were many expences which were not of a military
nature ; such as expenses for servants, for sixteen her es
fir the Commander-in.Citief, sod other items of a similar
description. He was surprised that his noble friend should
have remarked upon his evidence as he had done, since
upon that portion of it there was a note, or parigraph, re-
commending reduction ;- and if they had not approved of
his evidence, they would not have agreed to his report.
He would ask whet! er it was necessary that there should
be six superior officers in that department for doing what
could be done by officers of lower rank equal:), as well and
more economically ? He stated before, and it was still his
opinion, that a saving might be effected in this department
by choosing persons of lower rank than those now em•
ployed, and givi. g them lower salaries and pay. He had
not proposed to reduce the grant upon this head, hut he
had recommended a reduction of salary. He did not mean
to disparage the qtrartermastersgener tl, but lie was of
opinion that that department would admit of great reduc-
tion ; and lie could not see how, if that office was reduced
at the Horse Go .rds, it would prevent the having of effi-
c'ent quartermasters-general for the whole of the service.
If this vote should be reduced to 8,0001 , his noble friend
would see the services of this department as efficiently and
as properly done as ever.
Mr. ELLICE that that after the statement of his right
bon. friend behind him, it was necessary that the house
should see wh•tt they were called upon to do. The amount
ex. ended for officers at bead-quarters was 13.5541. 13s. 4d
and he did not see how this service could be performed if
the vote was reduced to 8.000/., and the recommendation
of the committee that s .t last year to so reduce it, was not
founded on any reasonable grounds. He did not doubt
the knowledge the right lion. gentleman possessed of die
War Office ; and lie was cerrain the right bon. gentleman,
when lie first got into office, hoped to be able to make
several reductions in that department. For his own part,
he had atteneed to every suggestion of economy ; but when
l:e bad found, almost in every point, and particularly upon
this subject, re jections like those contained in the correspon-
dence of tl,e Commauder-in Chief, he felt it proper to take
entice of these objections. That noble lord and distin-
guished officer was entitled to the thanks of the country_
and no one was more willing than he (Mr. Ellice) to bear
testimony to his services—for the creditable way in which
he conducted die business of the office. When such
was the acknowledged fact, he was not vain or
presumptuous enough to put his opinions on this mat-
ter in comparison with the noble lord's. With-
out trenching on the efficiency of the service, be
had no hesitation in adopting the Commander•in•Chief's

opinion on this subject. He had pressed upon the
Commander-in-Chief the opinions of that House, cod
shown him how eager they were for economy in this de-
partment. Having made this brief explanation he called
upon the bowie to pass the present vote, since the reduc-
tion proposed would not be of any important good to the
country and would be prejudicial to the service. The
best way of economising would be, to leave the matter in
his hands—to leave it between him and his noble friend,
the Commander-in-Chief, who was also desirous of eco •
nomy, and of reducing the expenses not only of this but
of every other department of the service.
Sir H. PARNELL said a few words in explanation.
Sir J. BYNG agreed with the sentiments expressed by
the right hon. Secretary at War. The house might fairly
leave the matter in the right hon. Secretary's hands; for
he was sure, that whenever economical reductions could
be made, the good sense of the Commander-in-Chief,
joined to that of the right hon. Secretary, would seize
every opportunity of effecting them, if they could do so
with advantage to the service and to the country.
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON concurred in the opi.
nion of the last hon. speaker, that there was a spirit of eco-
nomy in the administrationlof the right hon. Secretary at
War ; and that it would be better to leave the matter in
his hands, since he had taken upon himself half the re-
sponsibility of bringing about, if possible, reductions in it.
The house then divided, when there appeared.._
For the Amendment 59
Against it 243
Majority -184
The original vote was then agreed to.
Mr. O'CONNELL and Mr. COBBETT then rose at the
same time, hut the latter gave way.
Mr. O'CONNELL then moved that the Chairman do
report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Lord ALTHORP suggested that they should go on to
twelve o'clock. He hoped that the hon. and learned
member would not object to that course.
. _ _ _

Mr. O'CONNELL said, that he was one of those who
thought that the time was come when they should make a
stand in order to get a change effected in their ploceedinge,
and to enable them to do the business by day instead of by
night. —(Loud cries of" Divide.") As long as he stood alone
he did not venture to put his opin;on in opposition to the
universal wish of the house. But now he had 15 or 20
gentlemen who urged him to persevere in his motion, and
he was accordingly determined to do so. All they wanted
was, that something reasonable should he done.—(Divide.)
Lard ALTHORP said, he thought the hon. and learned
member for Dublin would agree with him that the best
mode of doing the public business was by transacting it
when the greatest number of members could be got toge-
ther.—(Hear.) The question as to the time of their
meeting was surely best left to the majority of the house.
He admitted that the question whether or not the house
should meet at twelve o'clock for the despatch of public
business was a fair one to moot ; but be thought it too
much that so large a m tjority of the house should agree to
this amendment, not on the ground of the policy or impo-
licy of the question before them, but merely on account of
the time at which it was proposed. He hoped that ti e
hon. and learned member would not make use of his pri-
vilege to such a purpose. It was not the best mode of
obtaining the end he proposed.
Mr. COBBETT said that if the noble lord would agree
that none of the members who sat upon that (the Trea-
sury) bench would give votes or opinions on the several
grants, he would agree to go on.—(A laugh.) But
otherwise, he would vote for the motion of the hon. and
learned member for Dublin.

Mr. O'CONNELL could not consent to be bound by
such a majority as he knew the noble lord could command.
They certainly did get through the public business at those
late hours, but they did not do it.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said that this was not a question of
principle. If it were, he would not object to the amend.
meat.• But he could not see what difference it would
make, whether these sums were voted between nine and
ten o'clock, or between ten and eleven.—(Divide l)

Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON concurred with the
hon, and learned member for Dublin, in thinking that
much inconvenience and injury was done to the public
service by the late hours to which the house sat. if the
hon. and learned member wool,' bring forward some speci-
fic motion for the regulation of the business of the house,
he (Mr. Fergusson) would support him, and he was sure
none was more able to grapple with the question than the
non. and learned member. He disapproved of taking
the business of the very greatest importance to the country
alter midnight, but though th it was his opinion, and he
should be glad to see the system changed, still he hoped
the hon. and learned member would not persist in his
motion.—(Divide, divide. )

Mr. HtfAIE said that tke house was not taken unawares
by his hon. and learned friend on this occasion, as he had
given notice of his intention to make the motion on a
former supply evening.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. O'Connell's motion 25
Against it
Majority .09
On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. ELLICE
addressing the house.
Mr. ELLICE stated that it was the wish of the
Government to consolidate the three great departments
through which the army was at present paid, and bring
the whole into that of the Paymaster-General, and arrange-
ments were now making tor that purpose. It was
generally supposed that the office of Treasurer to the
Ordnance was a sinecure, but that was nut the c ise, and
his hon. and gallant friend who then held that office was
in daily attendance upon it. He found that the office of
Treasurer of the Ordnance could not be dispensed with
till such time as the changes which Le had just spoken
of were made. In consequence of the proposed
changes, he found that no reduction .could be made
in the department of the Paymaster-General. At present
there were only 62 cl,rks in the War-office, and these
conduct the whole of the accounts of every kind connected
with the p iyment of the army. It was gratifying to him
to state that such was the manner in which they did their
business, that there was not at this moment a single regi-
ment in the service whose accounts were not regularly
audited, and scarcely a quarterly account up to the Ist of
January last that had not been examined. He could not
miss that opportunity of affording them his tribute of
praise. The amount which he should move for was
4,0001. less than the grant of last year. The right hon.
gentleman concluded by moving that the sum of 90,313/.
4s. sd. be granted to his Majesty as the charge of the al-
lowances to the principal officers of the several public de-
partment. of the army from the Ist of April, 18344 to the
let of April, 1835.

Mr. GUEST moved as an amendment that the chair-
man du report progress.
Mr. AGLIONBY said that this was not the proper way
to meet the que,tion as to the hours at which the house
should sit. He thought the hon. and learned member for
Dublin should make a .pecific motion on the subject.
Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR said, that he was obliged
to artynci there both at the morning and evening sitrings,
and he found he could not hold ~ut longer. He hoped the
lion. member would persist in his amendment
The house then divided, when there appearel
For the amendment l7
Against it
Majority -182
On our re-admission ,0 the gallery, we found

Mr. HUME on his legs. He maintaiued that it was
absurd to keep up an es ablishinent, at the expense of
90,0001. a year, which was perfec.ly useless. The office
in question was only an impediment to the transaction of
public business. He intended to propose to the house
that one half of the esta lishinent be reduced now, and the
other ball next sear. The hon. gentleman then moved
that the sum of 9,0651. to be taken from the present vote.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL admitted the propriety of
endeavouring to consoliti Ate the various departments as much
as possible; but maintained the necessity of keeping the
Pay Office as a separate estsblishment. Comparing the
'winner in which the accounts of that office were kept
now, with the mode of keeping them in former
times, there was a very great improvement. As to the
way in which they w.-re kept previous to 1797, no gen-
tleman who held the office of Accountant General before
that time could obtain a settlement of his accounts un•ii
several years after his retirement tram office. By the
next session of Parliament, he (Lord John Rus•ell) hope..
to be enabled to submit a plan to the house for lessening
the expenses of this office, which, though it might not
meet the approval of the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr.
Hume), would, he trusted, give satisfaction to the house
and the country.

Mr. HUME must say that the system at prtsent acted
on, of paying national money was a most absurd one.
Let any two intelligent accountants in the country be
asked their opinion of it, and they would at once say that
a more incongruous system never existed. A commission
bad been appointed to examine into this and other mat-
ters connected with the public accounts. That commis-
sion had already been sittinLt for nine months, and he
(Mr. Hume) supposed it would sit nine months longer,
at a great expense to the country ; and yet the recom-
mendation; of that commission were not acted on.

Mr. ELLICE assured the house that no person could
be more anxious to practise economy to the greatest pos-
sible extent than his noble friend (Lord Hill) ; but were
The estimate in question to be reduced to the extent pro-
posed by the bun. member for Middlesex, it would be im.
liossible, with that sum, p construct the machinery of the

establishment. He had already mentioned that measures
were in contemplation with a view to consolidate the
ffice in question, and he hoped that the hon. memh,r,
under these circumstancts, would not press the house to a
division.

Mr. COBBETT saw a charge of 26,000/. for army
agents. Why, if the army agents were to receive the
money from the treasury and give it to the army, where
was the nse of a paymaster ?
Mr. HUME then withdrew his amendment.
Motion agreed to.
On the motion being put that a sum not less than
6,977/. Se. 3d. be granted to his Majesty to (Wray the
expenses of the royal mili,ary asylum at Chelsea, from the
sth April, 1884, to the 31st March, 1835,
Mr. O'DWYER moved as an amendment, that the sum
be reduced by 2,500/.
The amendment was withdrawn, and the original mo-
tionagreed tn.

Mr. BERNAL then reprted the resolutions to the
house, and obtained leave to sit again tomorrow.

On the report of the Sugar Duties Bill being read,
Mr. PATRICK STEWART (we believe) took occa-
sion to protest against the hnuse coming to a decision on
the strength of any medical experiments which might•
have been made by Dr. Ur', however distinguished th e
talents—and he 'Mr. Stewart) readily allowed them to be
so—of that gentleman.
The discussion of the Smuzgline Act Amendment Bill
was. on the motion of Mr. F. O'CONNOR, postponed
till Wednesday.
FELONS' PROPERTY BILL.

On the motion of Mr. ROTCII, leave was given to
bring in this bill, after an objection an the part of Mr.
JERVIS who contended that the bill had not been given
notice of with sufficient clearness. and that it tended to
give too much power to irrespwale magistrates.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR also opposed the bill, and threa-
tened to divide the house.

L"rd ALTHORP approved of the principle of the bill.
The house did not divide, and leave was given to intro-
duce the bill.

The house then adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS.

The defeat of the Attorney-General at Dud-
ley, though not altogether unlocked for, is an
awkward and " untoward" event to the Govern-
ment, which gets rid of one law officer, because
he proves to be of no use to them in Parliament,
while the one of them who was of use to them is
sacrificed by succeeding him. It is awkward
too, as affording a specimen of the degree of
popular; y which the reform Ministry possess in
one of the new boroughs of their own creating ;
though in that spirit of fairness with which we
wish to treat all subjects, we must confess that,
as a party matter, this vies of the subject has
been carried a little too far, and has been too
strongly relied upon by some of the opponents
of Ministers. We have good reason for be-
lieving that two causes, quite sufficient of them-
selves alone to produce his defeat, operated
against Sir John Campbell upon the occasion,
and which were quite independent of any feeling
towards the Administration—the one, the popu-
larity, from local circumstances, of his oppo-
nent ; the other, the umbrage taken by the local
authorities at certain expressions said to
have been used towards them last year by
their then Representative. Be this, how-
ver, as it may, the probability is that the framers
of the Reform Bill will now begin to recognise
that as a defect in it which was often pointed out
to them—viz., the not providing seats, in virtue
of their oE9ce, for all such public functionaries
whose attendance in Parliament is essential to
the public service. Without pronouncing our-
selves any decisive opinion upon this suggestion,
it appears to us, at all events, preferable to the
projected scheme of rendering it unnecessary
for persons to vacate their seats on their appoint-
ment or removal to offices ; which besides being
a direct violation of the constitution, would
come with but a bad grace from those whose
object it has been to improve it. An Attorney-
General, perhaps, is the last man upon earth
who, even under ordinary circumstances, is
likely to stand favourably in the eyes of a po-
pular constituency ; an Attorney-General who
can attack the Press for saying that which a
Peer and a Master in Chancery are allowed
to say, and one of them to act upon, with
impunity, must be strangely infatuated to
attempt it. Then why did Sir John Camp-
bell attempt it, but on the score of mere profes-
sional etiquette ? The difference in rank be-
tween the offices of Attorney and Solicitor-Ge-
neral is merely nominal ; and there could there-
fore, to our minds at least, be no reason at all
adequate to jeopardising, much less to losing
his seat, why Sir John Campbell could not
have retained the office of Solicitor-General, al-
lowing Sir Wm. Horne's successor to take that
of Attorney. Though partaking very little, if
at all, in the exultation or regret which party
writers express upon the occasion, we shall cer-
tainly be induced to look upon Sir J. Camp-
bell's exclusion from Parliament as a misfortune,
pledged as he was to bring in a bill in further-
ance of an object for which we have so many
years been strenuously contending, the abolition
of imprisonment for debt, a measure which, we
fervently trust, will not be allowed to expire with
the Parliamentary exi.Aence of its advocate.—
Morning Herald.
It is now the daily business of the Tories to
run about accusing the King's ministers of hav-
ing been forced into an accpne,cence in the cum-
mittee on sinecures by the closeness of the divi-
sion on the pension list ; and yet these very
retailers of falsehood know very well that the
sinecure committee was decided on before the
other question was brought on. If base motives
again have been imputed to ministers for the
part they took on the motion respecting pensions,
or if it be insinuated that they were adverse to
that motion from any selfish views, a minute's
reflection must prove to every candid mind the
unreasonableness of such a charge. Look over
the pension list and see how few names of Whig
connection, or Whig recommendation, are to
be found there, while it is brim full of Tory
lords, ladies, and dependants ; and then for
the future, the Whig Ministers had as little to
hope for in the way of pension patronage as they
had to fear for disclosures or revisions of the
past, seeing that they had already cut down the
pension list prospectively more than half; and
had subjected each grant unreservedly to the
control of Parliament. The conduct of Minis-
ters, therefore, on that question, may have been
impolitic,—may have been servile,--we fear
that it was the latter ; sure we are that it was the
former ; and we should feel ourselves disgraced
by defending it, but it was, at least in relation
to patronage, disinterested, and we trust that
for their own sakes they will, on the next trial,
agree to an inquiry into the list of pensions,
while for that which has for its object the exa-
mination of sinecures they deserve unqualified
credit.— Times.

The Dissenting body, and we are sure the
just and considerate portion of our countrymen,
s,vill see with satisfaction, from last night's pro-
ceedinas in the House of Lords, that the petty
measure of relief contained in that bill of which
Lord John Russell has (reluctantly, we doubt
not) consented to be the mediutn of introducing
into Parliament, is declared by the Prime Mi-
nister to be a part only of the concessions which
are designed by Government to beigranted in

'avour of the Dissenters. Lord Durham, who is
always found on the side of fair and liberal po-
[ licy, iii presenting a petition from certain Dis-
Isenters of the North, took occasion to intimate
his extreme regret at . the insignificance of that
which is!called:pro forma, Lord John Russell's
Bill, regarded as a scheme for the _redress of
non-conformist grievances, and hoped that,„io,
time the just expectations of that body would fie
completely fulfilled. Lord Grey appeared anxious
to assure the house, that although the meakure
in question related but -to a single subject,
each and, all of the hardships which pressed
upon the Dissenters were now actually under
deliberatiOn by the Cabinet, with a view to
afford them relief. Indeed, it seems to us
astonishing how a man of Lord J. Russell's
known attachment to the cause of the Dis-
senting body, so far as the redress of their
acknowledged grievances was concerned, should
nave suffered himself to become the irrputec
advocate of a bill so little creditable to i;s
authors. We are accordingly much inclined
to believe a rumour which has got ground in
well-informed circles, that the noble lord was
with great difficulty prevailed upon to retain
his Cabinet office, when he -found the Sort of
task which had :been imposed upon him by
the majority of his colleagues, who in this re-
spect seem to have acted by him as unfairly as
he has treated them in the affair of the Chelsea
chaplainship.— Times.'
•

We learn from East Kent that the news of
the appointment of Mr. Gleig to the chaplaincy
of Greenwich Hospital has given great offence
to the Reformers of that part of the country,
who have a keen recollection of the lengths to
which the reverend gentleman carried his parti-
sanship. They do not allude merely to his
writings, first in the Kentish Gazette, and after-
wards in the Kentish Observer, which owed its
establishment in a great measure to him, but to
the prominent part he took in electioneering.
Sir Edward Knatchbull was greatly indebted to
his. zeal and talents, and the accounts of the
Sandwich election, at which, at the head of a
party of horsemen, he was a prominent actor,
are not yet forgotten. All this only proves that
Mr. Gleig was more than a nominal Tory—that
he was not ashamed of his principles, and that
he was ready to go all lengths to drive the
Whigs from office, and to give the ascendancy
to his own party. But how Lord John Russell,
a Reformer, the champion of civil and religious
liberty, the advocate of church reform, should
not only pass over every Whig clergyman who
had claims on his party, but travel into East
Kent in order to find an Anti-Reformer—a Tory
—a pluralist (for the rev. gentleman is already
rector of Ivy parish, and curate of Ash, about
twenty miles distant) fbr the chaplaincy of
Chelsea Hospital, is what the public cannot so
easily understand. By the bye, we understand
that Mr. Gleig is not the only non-resident
clergyman in the district in which his rectory is
situated ; but that in twenty adjoining parishes,
with a rental of between 60,000/. and 70,000/ ,
there is not a single resident clergyman. So
much for Lord Jahn Russell and the rector of
vy.—MorningChronicle.

The di-cussion of the army estimates was re-
sumed in the House of Commons last night,
and the principal actors on the orca‘ion were
Mr. Edward Ellice and Mr. Joseph Homo.
This is not the first time that those gentlemen
have exhibied together ; their speculations, for-
inerly, we have heard, were extremely profit-
able ; their sparring, last night, we thought,
was remarkably pretty. It consisted of a series
of gentle " touches" and givings way, on both
-ides—such as might have been expected to.
characterise the discussions of old friends—not
parted for ever, but merely severed for a while—
and accordingly the army estimates were dis-
cussed with all the cordiality of the Greek pie.
Our space will not allow of our going, to-day,
as much into the details of this discussion
as we could wish. We have merely time to
notice the principal topics that came under
consideration the reduction of the staff
at head-quarters, and the withdrawal of the
vote for the governorship of Windsor Castle
from the estimates. The Secretary at War,
the representative in the Commons' House
of Parliament of the rights and prerogatives of
the Crown, as respects the army, last night, in
the discharge of his new duties, was placed in a
painful position as respected his old alliances.
He, however, fought hard to reconcile his duty
to his royal master with his consideration for
his City friend, and he proceeded something
after the following fashion :—" I am as great
an advocate for economy and retrenchment, as
my hon. friend well knows, as any man ; but
official life is replete with difficulties. I thought
that great reductions might be made, and ac-
cordingly I wrote to Lord Hill to say so. Here
is my letter, and here is his answer. By these
documents my hon. friend will see that I am still
a Radical Reformer ; but that Lord Hill is an
inveterate Tory. What could I do ? Not
being a military man I could not well set up in)
opinion against his, and so I wasn't allowed
to make my reductions. But let my hon.
friend leave it to me. I'll see if I can't settle
Lord Hill by and bye, and he shall see that 1
have not forgotten our old acquaintance." And
is it thus the King is to be served by his Secre-
tary at War in the House of Commons ? Is it
thus that Lord Hill is to be dragged forward
to shield Mr. Edward Ellice from Mr. Hume ?
Why, we ask, did not Mr. Edward Ellice, it
he did indeed differ from Lord Hill, refer, as he
was bound to do, the subject in discussion
between them to the Treasury, and take from
that superior department an answer, one way or
the other ? and why, if he did not choose to
abide by that decision, did he not go to his
father-in-law and tender his resignation ? No ;
that course would not have suited Mr. Ellice.
By adopting the other he thought he might
both retain his office and bring odium on Loid
Hill ; that he should neither separate from the
Government, nor split with Mr. Hume ; that
he might run with the hare, and hold with the
hound. Tliti,,, though the staff at head-quarters
was not reduced, Mr. Hume was propitiated.
With reference to the Governorship of Windsor
Castle, how did Mr. Edward Ellice act tipmi that
question, so closely affecting the prerogative and
dignity of his Royal Master ? Why there again
Mr. Hume was to be propitiated. The Secre-
tary at War conies down to the house with his
estimates, among which the vote for the go
vernorship of Windsor castle was included ; and
there, with a motion from Mr. Hume on the
subject staring him in the face, says not one
word upon the subject of withdraN item
from this
from the estima, es in his introductory speech.
On, uo ; that would not be giving Mr. Flume
the glory of having diis conceded to his inter-
ference. That would not be giving Mr. Hume
,he opportunity of making his speech. Indeed
had it not been for Sir H. Hardinge's most
loyal defence of the office azelf, and most soi.

Bier-like exposition of Lord Munster's fitness
ipt..the office; by reason_ol, his dislitgui,ned
Hervices, we are not;,-quite sure whether the
governorship of Windsor Castle would not have
fallen altogether 'a victim to Mr. Ellice's ancient
friendship with Mr. Hume ; and, playing the
game,Which.the Right Hon. Secretary at War
playing last night, we can well conceive
Nhat gall and wormwood it was to him to feel
mote entirely the gallant officer led the house
vith him when he vindicated (in the tetension
)f the office), the prerogative of the King,
.vhich had been all hut abandoned by his
official servant, and demonstrated the fitness
of Lord Munster to fill it, and not
from his connection with the Sovereign, but
From his character in the service. But the de-
nouement came at last, and it was touching to
degree ; tender almost to suffocation.—" Oh !
Friendship, what a holy tie is thine !" The
member for Middlesex was not to be outdone.
The staff at headquarters was retained, to be
sure, but Lord Hill was shown up ; the gover-
norship of Windsor Castle was not to be•abo-
lished, but the salary was to be paid from
another fund ! His motion had not been car-
ried, hut his feelings had been soothed. All
this demanded requital ; and so—" Mr. Hume
was of opinion that the Serretarg at War
should have a seat in the Cabinet !" One
cord in conclusion. We do not object to the
old friendship of Mr. Ellice with Mr. Hume,
as exemplified in the letters of Messrs. alando
and Luriotti".s-; nor to the continuation of it, as
exemplified in the debate of last night. But we
do object to the abandonment of the King's pre-
rogative by the King's minister, as in the case
of the governorship of Windsor Castle, and to
.the introduction of the Commander-in-Chief's
name, as in the proposed reduction of the staff at
head quarters. We do not object, we say, to
these gentlemen for being the strictest friends,
but wishing to be thought the sole patriots, in
the house ; but we tell them once and for all,
that they will hardly succeed in passing them-
selves off as Ronzans at Westminster till they
cease to be remembered as Greeks at Guildhall.
—Morning Post,

BANKRUPTCY COURT, MARCH 1.

WILLIAM VENABLES' BANKRUPTCY.

Messrs. MERIVALE, FONBLANQUE, and lIOLROYI)
sat in a Subdivision Court, to decide upon a point
raised of some importance. The bankrupt was an
extensive linen-draper in Lamb's Conduit-street,
and the proc edings under the fiat have become of
more public importance than the ordinary cases by
the elaborate decision given by the Lord Chancellor
in the case of John Sex Bardwell, who was com-
mitted by the Commissioners in Subdivision C.,urt,
but ordered to be released by his Lordship. The
present question was, whether a Mr. Davis, a linen-
draper, who had dealings with Bardwell, should be
compelled to produce his books, to show the nature
of his dealings with Bardwell, who is stated to have
obtained goods from the bankrupt on terms the
creditors think unfair. Since the Lord Chancellor
liberated Bardwell he has absented himself, and thus
the difficulties of the assignees in inquiring into the
bankrupt's estate are increased. The right of the
Court to demand the production of Mr. Davis's
books was denied, and on this point the Subdivision
Court was held, the assignees considering tneir pi o-
ducticm necessary, as they imagine they can thus
trace property supposed to belong to the estate.
Mr. ANDERTON, as Counsel For Mr. Dayk, con-
ten,led that the law would not compel a man to give
evidence that might injure him.
Mr. Ashurst, the solicitor to the estate, contended
poxer was given to the Commissioners to call for
papers amid examine witnesses, in order to trace the
property of a bankrupt, if they had ref.son to think
goods had been improperly removed.
Mr. Commissioner MERIYALC said the case was
of the first importance. The Tiestion was a nice
one, and the Court would take time to consider,
and give a format judgment.

Mr. Ashurst laid before tli.; Court an affidavit of
the absconding of Bardwell, and prayed a warrant
for his apprehension.

ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE.

WESTERN CIRCUI f—WiNenEsrim,MAßcrzs2.
Mr. Justice BOSANQUET and Mr. Baron V: IL-
LIAMS dined at Strathfieldsaye, on their route to
Winchester, on Friday ; and yesterday afternoon
their lordships opened the Commission in this city.
The calendar presents a dreadful catalogue of
offenders and offences. There are ninety-seven
prisoners for trial, which is very heavy for. this
county; among these we find four charged with
murder, one with arson, five with rape, six wilt
maliciously wounding, and two with unnatural
crimes.

To-morrow morning, at nine o'clock, the actual
husiness of the asszes will commence. Mr. Justice
BOSANQUET will preside at Nisi Prius, and Mr. Ba-
ron WILLIAMS will, for the first time, take his seat
in the Crown Court.

MIDLAND CIRCUIT—NoRTIT imrroxsitißl7,

111Aacil 3.

The commission was opened on Saturday, and
the business commenced to-day, Chief Justice TIN-
DAL pres!ding on the criminal s.de, and the Hun.
S r J. LITTLEDALE on the civil.
The calendar is heavier than has been known
fur many years, there being 71 prisoners for trial,
a,,d the law business is equally so, the list cont ,tin-
lug nineteen causes, five of which are special. None
but the senior members recollect so heavy an assize.
DRAGE V. PAYNE.

The plaintiff is a horse dealer residing at North-
ampton, and the defendant also a horse dealer and
proprietor of omnibuses living in London. This
was an action against the defendant as the drawer
aid indorser of a bill of exchange, drawn upon
Lord Longford for 2001. payable three months
After date, with irverest.
A witness was called who proved an admission
by the defendant that the indorsement was in his
handwriting, arid th it he owed the money.
A verdict was accordingly taken for the plaintiff