The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-18 00:00:00

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to
3. because of the infieence and power it gave to
Pattyie itrl
and to faction in cases where
,justice only ought to
b"vn•—(flear, hear.) Their Lordships might per-
:Pa think that he hal treated that part of the subject at
li'on_etsnessaly length, and too seriously, for probably the
were not acquainted with the extent to which the
.would operate. He would, therefore, point out
I ape in some particulars, and he might do so with
t:ni4;c degree of confidence, as he had paid much at-
%allot) to inquiring into the fact. lie found, then,
third under this Bill as it at present stood two
per. or nearly two- thirds, of the business of the au-'
Thl.°' Courts would he transferred to the local Courts.
wa:t was a fact that ought not to he lost sight of ; but it
ns rno, all. Every case of libel or defamatin could be
the
to those local Courts, Such must bet}e effect of
in ; for if there was an action for libel brought in a
noll'i'pinr Court, and the damages were under 50/., tie y
lall not carry costs. The consequence would be that
tr' de'?"
wherein the damagee were not definite would be
,-tt;,,ln these new Courts. And would they present such
tian'llnal as a case of libel ought to be submitted to?
ahi4nriedly not. What! try a libel in the very district in
lestca tt was committed before a Judge and a Jury real-
oa
Berk n the spot, and likely therefore to be acquainted
tally and m ore or It sa mixed up with the circutn-
tta of the case? What! would his Noble and
Friend recommend such a course; and further,
the Jury should be composed of only six common
•(Hear.) Were their Lordships prepared to
such an innovation? and would such a measure
the sanction and authority of his Noble and
Friend ?—(Hear, hear.) But this was not all;
action of false imprisonment must be tried before
local Courts. That must be the case, because the
were not fixed, and every party, for the chance
ity, would appeal to a Court where the smallest
would carry with them costs. Suppose a magic-
the discharge of his duty had committed an error,
said to have done so, would any one contend that
these local Courts would present a fit tribunal be-
,''hom the case ought to be tried ? A Court consti-
of a Judge resident in the district in which the
of action oi iginated, and, in all probability, either
'lend or the opponent of the magistrate, and six
jurors, all also belonging to the same district,
it be said that to such a tribunal such a case ought to
'red ?—( Hear.) He bad stated these cases for the
of bringing before their Lordships some of the
/ effects of the Bill. It was true that his Noble
,reed Friend had recommended the measure as
to enable persons to recover debts, but that was
Partial view of the effects of the measure. What
the great argument against the system 'of Welch
That system had been opposed by the Noble
now sitting at the table, and who when he opposed
a Member of the House of Commons, on the ground
't had led to conflicting and uncertain practice, and
' the same Judge always going the saute circuit a
bad arisen that they were not above partiality
liar predilections. Nor was the Noble Earl the only
„ea upon the occasion who had used similar arguments.
h,"Cn• Member of the House of Commons, and one
"uch ir,flu,nee and power in debate, bad gone far
deeply into detail, and had pictured also the evils of
system of judicature, and contrasted the suspicion
upon the Welch Judges, a suspicion necessarily
out of the system, with the pure and unblemished
of the twelve Judaes of England, upon whose
said the speaker he referred to, there was not even
low of a shade. Doubtless their Lordships would
the style; it was even that of his Noble and
• Friend now sitting on the Woolsack, and to his
and Learned Friend he appealed for support in his
. to the Bill under consideration.—(Hear, hear.)
abolish the system of Welch judicature, because it
I inferior Judges, conflicting decisions, a variety
. of practice, and suspicions against the purity
Ages, and yet establish provincial Courts through-
kingdom upon the very principle and with the very
nu much complained of in the exploded system?
such would not be the case. But, said his Noble
led Friend, this Bill was only an experiment. He
confess that he looked upon the Bill with great jet-
The former Bill was specific. It limited the
of the experiment to two counties, to Kent and
. county. The present Bill was not specific.
power to the Crown—that was, to the Ministers
Crown—to try the experiment in whatever districts
pleased. The Bill, therefore, was nominally only an
tot, for all the power was taken out of the hands
iatnent and transferred to the Ministers of the
• When, therefore, he saw the specific language
'tied for this general language, he could not but
that a more general operation was contemplated
a mere experiment.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble and
Friend hail referred to the existence of local
into tither countries. It was true that they had ex-
France for several years, and he would entreat of
of their Lordships who had not already done so to
to
any French legal authority on the subject, and
Would find that the local Courts were invariably
ad as partial, conflicting, and most unsatisfactory.
dd his Noble and Learned Friend, they have been
nearer home—they have been tried in Scotland.
a that the system had been tried in Scotland
hear, hear.) It was true a portion of the system
tried in Scotland, and perhaps it would work
tnough if purified and improved ; but he had the
of his Noble and Learned Friend for saying that
iitherto worked most vilely.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
dale arid Learned Lord then referred to a speech
the House of Commons by Mr. C. Fergusson de-
' the whole of the Scotch system. If the present
tl• interminable written pleadings were done away
!°, the Scotch Courts the system proposed in the
°is Noble and Learned Friend might he tried in
it not without ; and he contended th.t hitherto it
I been tried there. He had to apologise to their
for trespassing upon them with some reference
tad been the effect of the application of the prier-
this Bill to legislation elsewhere. Captain Hail,
no 111,4eg of the United States, said—
, atlfrej ,Principles of hinging justice home to every man's
,„00`;1 Sltat,'„.of making the administration of it cheap, have had. a
3"- ',unent in America, and greater practical curses I will
cegf.jer say were never
.inflicteodneonawaanvywciotr
tarlrthelntetcine.
d hits vonfnstvevaillaiva,.theynierareve d
are no stamps, no techni-
bereol special pleadings, and scarcely any one is sofpoor
re 0„„ tiacZloi. go to law. The coniellieircse
of course
caosucresnee
Jalo
amwoiriniiong t_oag night.
villagecontaining above two or three hun-
preoF4ll Rabliants is without one or more. No pgoson,pe
nheisvet
alt ;latri,aore,ctonocitn7at
win
suits.lw hasteritvamnisy,
liasbofruereers, themevery one in
it
.;,5t
..tiee first occasion flies to tile nco'ighboringjil4wi.),•,enzirioser
ce Abp gz4,l.lo,l_i_Toanceisteovecrolcire enr
of andactl n
iaw-must decide every
lei goat N'th
thefilf, \len there were no technicalities, and his Noble and
I° 00
,Ist Friend was adverse to technicalities. Here also
o.oole ~,trePtella requiring no stamps, and his Noble and
to ~, ‘C' Prime' was adverse to stamps. Here also was
t 41,•
„r 0
'4 one of special pleading ; yet, with all those pecu-
F reff th
tue system, and they all represented those of the
Ors their Lordships, it would be perceived th it the
le ofAt(ill'ere totally different from those anticipated by the
14,00 .'l4teAt of this measure. The consequence of this sys-
Pr",terf Nii,`‘lnerica, as stated by Captain Hall, was that the
,a t 0 141ota of that country were always at law. There
rl cl •
Ara „ age or small community without a lawyer, nor
"co, ui 3' community of two hundred persons without one.
4eaaisl,'lli3pute there was terminated, if terminated at all,
an?' ' Such was the spirit °I litigation there that when
tilts the ,"aothstnarnenced, there was no chance of compromising or
110' Vunodation, but the law must be allowed to take its
ite Ile mentioned these circumstances in order to
eh° at
ta O Rte of the observations of his Noble and Learned
Va in order to show their Lordships what was the
Ji heel Mt °l'
°Paration of the principles of the Bill of the Noble
couo 'l,..rned Lord. Having referred to these instances of the
consequences of the application of these prim-
e
ieeo 09 4'445 legislation he would beg leave to call their Lot d-
tia kio •
ke tlon to a few general objections which Le meant
"
fit
ir ti t° the Bill. They were all aware how eminent
„II e j ra, bar had always been for their incependence
odoof Nri 'ftestedness, as well as for their talent and legal
re :110,,ge• The members of that profession had always
-13°'4,c1 as barriers against the encroachments of ar-
;t-fr° r'''t,vc4‘er, and let not their Lordships doubt but that
thes, also, if ever it was necessary, stand forth as
Joao resist republicanism and democracy.—( Cheers.)
caefo, t.,farlt took away from Westminster the greater
f,al
the profession, or if they took away from them
,P." r Y Which nowpossessed of acquiring legal
I), re ite
•they P
P ‘\lli,t,,lt would deteriorate that profession, which was
clraP'• 1 / luguished for learning, talent, and indepen-
,ac ' 4,4 diroinishing the circuits or the practice at the
t ra 141 us there would be taken away from tie bar
Ord 'gal knowledge which qualified barristers to fill
Of el, 1a1Y1,;94, of jud Therao administer the laws of the
t;n;:titn effect.g-. Lordship ought to recollect
(tb VainFta were invariably chosen from the bar, and
yllartuest judicial office in the State, that of Lord
ePbe
yfth' Was supplied from the same source. It was,
of itifktilie greatest importance that the bar should have
vicee I,,ts Are of acquiring legal information, but all these
jecl
off • inciterm ld be taken away by this new system. Let
r, °ea 1,,1ta4 a Judge, say of ten years' experience, how-
i4'74,l:t in his profession ; let them, he said, but send
ttlietaa 'atke': to the country where he was to reside, with-
of id Ot4, with his equals in legal acquirements, and
btat,4. tie would become deficient it be did not be-
‘tlt of law. In short he had no doubt but that

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it 81°'
hie 01
the

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ltrY 61i
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the consequences of this new system would be that none
but the lowest attorneys would be found practising in those
local courts. By this course the bar would be injured, the
judges would be of inferior character, and there could be
no dependence upo❑ the judicial authorities of the country.
He was sure he did not overcharge the picture ; and, if
he could exercise the eloquence of his Noble and Learned
Friend, he would make their Lordships shudder at the
idea of the evils that would ultimately follow from the
adoption of this measure. There was another view of
the subject which he thought well worthy of conside-
ration, namely, the expense of carrying this Bill into
operation. According to the estimate of his Noble and
Learned Friend it would cost 150,0001. ; but according
to the estimate of others, who were practical men, it would
cost at least 200,0001. or 800,0001. He admitted that
too high a price could not he paid for the effectual admi-
nistration of justice ; but this much he would say, that
the amount named, or, indeed, any amount, was too
much to pay for such tribunals as were to be created by
this Bill. In his view of the case there was no necessity
for so great an expenditure. But, if an expense were to
be incurred, why not apply it to the improvement of those
tribunals that were already in existence? In what way
was it that his Noble and Learned Friend proposed to
cheapen the administration of justice ? It was, first, by
abolishing pleadings ; then interlocutory pleadings ; and
lastly, by changing the mode of trial. In the first place,
it was said that there would be necessity for the usu II pre-
liminary process and pleadings. If, then, such a change
was good in local Courts, why not establish it at West-
minster Hall? If such a system were wise, why not en-
graft it upon that which was practised in Westminster
Hall? As to the wisdom of it, it was true that regula-
tions had been already made to limit the extent of plead-
ings, and to bring litigant parties to an issue. Having,
done that, and he hoped with some good effect, they would
by the adoption of this Bill be only retrograding back to
the old system. The second stage of proceeding with
which his Noble and Learned Friend interfered was that
of interlocutory proceedings. Now be would take upon
himself to assert that these must be always cheaper in
London than in local districts. In the litter there would
be often, if not always, a difficulty in finding a Judge. The
country attorney would, upon the most trivial occasion,
have to take his horse and go perhaps several miles in
quest of one, and this, of course, must be done in the
country, as compared with London, at a vast increase
of expense. The third and last stage referred to was
that of trial, the expenses of which consisted prin-
cipally of fees to the officers of the Court. These ex-
penses could be easily diminished or abolished by adopting
the suggestion of the Noble and Learned Lord that they
should be paid by the Government, or, what was better,
perhaps, that they should not be paid at all, as by late
regulations they belonged principally to the public, and
therefore they could he easily abolished altogether. His
Noble and Learned Friend said that the expenses of
witnesses would be considerably diminished by this Bill.
Possibly the experience of practice in large counties had
induced his Noble and Learned Friend to conclude that
the expenses of witnesses were equally great through.
out all England, whereas it was well known that
in some instances the assize towns were not more
than twenty or thirty miles asunder; but if even
they were more distant, and that witnesses had to travel
too long journeys, the inconvenience and expense might be
obviated by a subdivision of the counties. His Noble and
Learned Friend then said that witnesses were kept too
long a time and with great expense at the several Assizes.
This might be the case in some parts of the Northern Cir-
cuit, but the evils did not exist in other parts of England.
In Derbysh;re, Leicestershire, and other places that he
knew, witnessrs could never be kept in waiting more than
two days. But, even if the evil were general, it could be
easily remedied by increasing the number of Assizes.
There were at present only two Assizes held in the year;
and he was free to admit that the period which elapsed
between the Summer and Spring Assizes, generally about
eight months, was too long. This objection, too, might
be easily obviated. Let there, he would say, be three
Assizes in the year, rather than introduce this mischievous
measure. These were the means which he would pro-
pose for effecting amendment in the present judicial system,
and he would leave it to their Lordships to decide be-
tweets his views and the propositions of his Noble and
Learned Friend. He was willing to adopt the establish-
ment of a summary jurisdiction in the recovery of small
amounts, and he would extend such a measure throughout
the country, and apply it to sums beyond W. He would
not enter upon the details of the measure ; but before he
sat down be wished to state to their Lordships two or
three instances of what would be the practical operation
of this Bill. A party, for instance, having a cause of
action, might, as he had a perfect right to do, bring such
action into a superior Court. But before the trial came
on his principal witnesses might die, or he might refuse to
attend, and in such case the plaintiff would lose his costs,
and be otherwise subject to great injustice. He would
lose his coats if it should happen that he on:y got a verdict
for 191. This would be the state under the new system,
though under the existing law, as altered upon the recom-
mendation of Commissioners, the Judge would have a dis-
cretionary power of giving or refusing costs.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that there was one
line omitted in the printed copy of the Bill the insertion
of which would meet his objection.
Lord LYNDHURST was nor aware of that circum-
stance ; but there were still sufficient inconveniences
likely to arise out of this measure. He should mention
another of them. Suppose a house at Liverpool furnished
goods to a person residing in any other county of Eng.
land. The firm in Liverpool, if they had to sue for the
value of the goods, would have to bring the action in the
county in which the debtor resided. The debtor could

insist upon the attendance of all the parties before the
Judge, and if the debt were only 151. or 9.01. the cre-
ditors would sooner forego their demand tha❑ incur a
larger sum in the attempt to recover it. Again, sup-
pose that a plaintiff had obtained judgment and exe-
cution, and to have obtained possession of the
debtor's property, there was no clause in the Bill
which called him to account for any balance which
he might have in hand. Another case :—A cre-
ditor brought his action, but found that the property
of the debtor had been transferred, arid that a fraud,
which the creditor could not remedy, was practised. If a
debtor found that he was about to be sued, he could get a
friendly creditor to bring an action, and take almost im-
mediate possession of his property, and thus completely
defeat the bone
_fide creditor. He mentioned these cir-

cumstauces merely to illustrate the principles and practical
operation of this Bill, and at the same time lie admitted
that nothing was easier than to find fault and raise ob-
jections against any system, however perfect.—(Hear,
hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend, in adverting to
Courts of Reconcilement, well knew that such a jurisdic-
tion had been unsuccessful i❑ almost all the countries of
Europe in which it was tried. It had failed in Geneva

and several other countries; indeed his Noble and Learned
Friend had admitted it had failed everywhere, except in
Denmark and Sweden ; but the rule in these two countries

was that a man could not go into a superior Court until
he had first tried the Court of Reconcilement, which
practice was entirely inconsistent with the principles of
this Bill, and therefore foreign to the argument. He sin-
cerely thanked their Lordships for the kind attention with
which they had listened to him. He had no personal or

party views to promote by a discussion of the subject,
which was one that ought to be considered calmly and
impartially, and without any admixture of party feeling.
—(Hear.) Indeed it was not a party question, and he
sincerely toped it would never be made a party question.
—(Hear.) He had looked over the Bill attentively, and
be had bestowed great care in considering what would be
its consequences, and, believing as he (lid that they would
-3e most mischievous, he could not, in justice to himself,
in justice to the Bar, and, more than all; in justice to the
country, but raise his bumble voice in opposition to it.—
(Cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord then moved that

the Bill be committed that day three months.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, having stated the ques-
tion, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part
of the question," and having waited some time without
any other Noble Lord rising, observed that, considering
the circumstances, he felt himself under the necessity of
soliciting some short space of time for the purpose of reply-
ing to the statements of his Noble and Learned Friend,
which their Lordships had just heard—statements more

full of overlooking of facts respecting the Bill to which his
Noble and Learned Friend objected—more full of over-

looking of party, respecting the report of those facts by
the Commission, alio on which this Bill had been founded
—more full of inadvertencies, he was quite sure uninten-

ional on the part of his Noble and Learned Friend—state-

went and arguments more full of these inadvertencies,
he (the Lord Chancellor) did not think he had ever heard,
either from the Noble and Learned Laid himself, or from
any other Member of either Ifouse of Parliament. He
had stated a large proposition ; but he thought that he
could adduce evidence which would show that it was nut

too large. The first statement of his Noble and Learned
iend was somewhat staggering to him (Lord Brougham),
viz., that the Learned Commissioners—(Hera the Noble
and Learned Lord, in consequence, we believe, of some in.
terruption, observed)—He ought to apologise to the Huube
for addressing it so early, as it was the usual courtesy—
(Hear)—for a Noble Lord who proposed a motion, to
deter his reply until other Noble Lords had bad time to
deliver their sentiments; but after putting the question,
and seeing that no Noble Lord stood up, and after pausing

some time, and when the House was about to come to a
vote, he had no other course to pursue according to the
orders of the House, and he would now endeavour, there-
fore, to reply to the arguments of his Noble and Learned
Friend. His Noble and Learned Friend had staggered him
by his statement that the Commissioners were not unanimous
in their approval of the measure founded upon their report,
for that one of them dissented with respect to the provi-
sions of the Act. If his Noble and Learned Friend had
condescended to look to their own statements, he would
have been able to perceive that the signatures of all the
Commissioners had been appended to them.
Lord LYNDHURST asserted that one of them did not
approve of the extent to which it was intended to proceed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he understood, at
all events, that all the signatures were affixed to the re-
port ; that no charge so giave had yet been heard as all
those whose hands were appended did not consent to all
the propositions in the report ; and he knew that all the
five Commissioners had agreed to the report. He was
satisfied, then, that all of them assented to the propositions
in the Bill, for they only went to the same length as the
report. The next was mere fringe. The amount to
which the local jurisdictions were to extend their powers
was the same (201.) as recommended by the Commissioners,
and they were to he limited to the extent of the exceptions
mentioned by the Commissioners. In some cases he (Lord
Brougham) had not gone so far as was recommended, as
in the case of actions of ejectment directed against tenants
for claims of 201. It was provided also that no question
might he raised in these Courts relative to the rights to
freehold and copyhold property. There were several other
points in which the Bill fell short of the recommendations
of the Commissionere. The only points to which he could
suppose that his Noble and Learned Friend intended to
advert were those respecting execution and reconcilement.
With regard to these, any alteration which might be
deemed advisable might be made in Committee. His
Noble and Learned Friend had made a statement which
he confessed had astonished him (Lord Brougham),
for he had asserted that Government had been de-
cided on legislating upon this subject by the opi-
nions of certain merchants and bankers, who were
so tainted with prejudices, so little capable of giving
a clear opinion upon the subject, that some of them were
for establishing commercial tribunals like those of France,
others for abolishing the Insolvent Act altogether; so
that, in short, no reliance whatever was to be placed on
their opinions. Excellently well this argument would be,
if his Majesty's Ministers had ever relied upon their views
or upon their sentiments for ascertaining the proper course
for remedying the evils by which they had suffered ; but
Government only referred to them to explain the grievances
under which they suffered. He had been accused of de-
scribing these persons as objects cf prey. He wondered,
when that Noble and Learned Lord, who was so strong
an advocate for Westminster Hall, in the exercise of that
candour which lie professed, if he recollected so well that
he (Lord Brougham) had made use of the terms to
which he had alluded, that he had not trusted to these as
legislators or as advisers, but as sufferers ; and who were
more proper to explain the difficulties under which they
laboured than those who were exposed to lose by the sys-
tem as it at present existed? Who could be better wit-
nesses in such a c ise? Every one of these was a better
witness than the Noble Lord himself, on any of that jea-
lousy of talent to which he had referred. The Noble and
Learned Lord had spoken of the great body of the law,
by which one might suppose he meant that most disin-
terested class of men who live by the law, including not
only judges, registrars, clerks, train-bearers, mace-
bearers, &c. &c,, but above all, the barristers, whe-
ther of town or country, solicitors, attorneys, attor-
neys' and solicitors' clerks, and so forth. This must
be imagined to be the body to which the Noble
and Learned Lord referred, notorious, certainly as it was,
for its talent and skill, and dexterity in getting out of dif-
ficulties. But no, that was not the thing. These quali-
ties, so eminently possessed by that body, all were willing
to admire ; the community at [urge allowed them such
praises as these to the most boundless extent. It was not
their pure disinteres,edness, their abrogation of all feeling
of self; it was not on these that his Noble and Learned
Friend rested this pane7,yric on the great body of the law;
but on this—on the doctrine that the moment when any
one should propose a reform of the law, the moment when
any change was to be effected which would tend to ditni-
nish the profits of lawyers—the moment when any alte-
ration was to be introduced which would affect their inte-
rests, even in the greatest degree, with the very least de-
gree of advantage to the people, then the people might lay
their account—that the lawyers would be the very last to
oppose the innovation—th .t it was as difficult for the phi-
losopher of old, with his lanthorn, to discover au honest
man, as it would he to discover it lawyer opposing in such
a case, anything which prejudiced his interests. The
lawyers, he should have expected, so far from being wil-
ling to take up arms against this first beneficial change,
would be ready, with open arms, to receive it. In
that pure and disinterested feeling, one would have
supposed, however much their profits may be dimi-
nished, that cheap, near, and speedy justice would
have united all their wishes ; but lo! in opposition
to this pure and disinterested feeling, somewhat em-
barras-ingly fur him (for he could not account for the con-
tradiction), came the Noble and Learned Lord to move
an amendment, that the consideration of this measure for
cheap, near, and speedy justice, should he adjourned to that
day three months. He (Lord Brougham) was most wil-
ling to admit that the profession of the law was generally
submitted to much unmerited obloquy; but he would add,
because it was the result of long experience, that the great
body of the law is against every change, until it is forced
upen them by necessity; that they are behind the great
body of the community ; that they lag behind the age in
the views of improvement; that though this feeling is not
shared equally by all, yet those who were the highest in
the law, those who shared the most in good things, shared
also the most in this had thing, and that the Judges of the
land had the largest portion of the prejudices against inno-
vation. He did not mean to say that this feeling was
natural. It was not to be supposed that men who had spent a
great portion of their lives in acquiring a certain descrip-
tion of knowledge, would be willing to abandon even the
inintiti st portion of that knowledge—that they would be
willing to burn any portion of their books, however
small. However capable such conduct might be of
extenuation, he believed that such would he the result

of the experience of any one who had the slightest expo_
rience in the thankless, and he would often say the fruit-
less, field of law. His Noble and Learned Friend had also
alluded to the great advantage of adhering to the present
system, and to the disadvantages and mischievous effects of
introducing innovations; and he alluded—particularly al-
luded—to that which he described as a great advantage—
the centralising of the jurisdiction of Courts. He argued
on this point as if he supposed that it was intended to take
away from the Courts in Westminster Hall the chief su-
perintendence of the course of justice in England—than
which no supposition could be more unfounded. It was
still intended that the Courts of Westminster Hall should
have the power of regulating those inferior jurisdictions;
there was still to be an appeal ; there was still sufficient
in the scheme proposed to secure that uniformity in the
decisions of points which was so much insisted upo❑ by
the Noble and Learned Lord, and which was certainly so
desirable. The Noble Lord argued as if these Courts were
to have an entirely independent power; but in all matters '
of law—in all cases of misdirection of a Judge—or any
others of a similar nature, it was provided that an appeal
should be made to the Courts in Westminster Hall. It

was true, that in cases of actions for sums of 201. or under,
when the question respected merely matters of fact, there
was no such appeal ; but there was no innovation in point

of fact upon the present question; for it had been found
that the costs upon appeals of this nature necessarily
exceeded the amount of the debt claimed, and the conse-
quence was, that the Court, as a melsure of mercy to
the suitor, had adopted it as a rule to refuse, in such
caws, all applications for new trials—( Hear, hear)—so
that its real practice would not be altered, although its
form would he changed. His Noble and Learned Friend
had also alluded to the great extent of the defalcation of
business to lawyers employed in Westminster Hall, as well
as at the Assizes. He (the Lord Chancellor) would not
pretend to argue with any man who was to make facts tor
himself ; but the Noble Lord bad chosen in this case to
beg the question ; for he had assumed that two •thirds of

the business would be taken away from the Courts of
Westminster and the Assizeq, and consequently taken
from the hands of the most respaciable part of the Bar.
01 ninety writs for deits, only one third had been for debts
under 201. There was, therefore, a mistake in saying
two-thirds of the business would be taken away.
Lord LYNDHURST observed, that be had only alluded
to trials and not to writs.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said be knew that, He
knew whom he had to deal with, and he had come pre-
pared to show that the proportion was pretty nearly the
same in the case of trials. He held in his hand an ac-
count of the trials at the London and Middlesex Sessions,
the result of which was, that about one third were for
sums of 201. or under. There were 330 of the latter
description out of 890. Even for the Oxford Circuit, in
which the proportion was large, it was less than half,
being 160 out of 310 ; and that was of course under the
proportion stated by his Noble and Learned Friend—a
proportion which he utterly denied to hold good in any
One instance. But he was sure that the Local Courts
would not diminish the business of the higher
dam at the Bar, even in that small proportion,

if

What prevented many suitors from going be the
Assizes with their actions, but the certainty of the
delay which would Occur, and the risk that the case would
not be tried at all ? The Noble and Learned Lord knew
very well that many cases were left untried at the assizes,
because there was always too much business to be done.
The first day or two business was done with great care,
and went on slowly ; but he did not think that the same
could be said of the last part of the assizes. He (Lord
Brougham) knew from his former practice, and his Noble
and Learned Friend knew from his constant present ex-
perience—and he did not mean to say that it arose from
the conduct of the Judges, but from that of the profes-
sional men—that the business, towards the close of the
assizes, was always hurried on in a manner very different
from that which was pursued in the early part of it. The
expense of keeping witnesses, and the danger of the cases
being left as rem nets, had a tendency to cause the pro-
fessional men to hurry on the proceedings in the last por-
tion of the Term which was ope❑ to them. If by this
Bill trifling trumpery actions for 5/., 101., or 151. were
removed from the cause paper, more time would be allowed
for the investigation and decision of matters of the gravest
importance to the parties or to the country, and it
would not then he necessary to defer cases to the
next assizes. He agreed that nothing ought to be in-
troduced that would tend to degrade the bar, but at the
same time he most positively denied that such could be
the effect of the present enactment. His Noble and Learned
Friend had endeavoured to throw some ridicule on the
provision that only barristers of ten years standing and
upwards were to be appointed Judges in the Local Courts,
as if that ware the only qualification, and omitting all
mention of talents, kerning, and integrity, without which
no man would be eligible. No Minister would dare to
recommend the appointment of an improper person, re-
collecting that he was liable to the ordeal of public opinion,
that he acted under Parliamentary responsibility, and,
above all, that he was liable to the scrutiny of Westminster
Hall. His Noble and Learned Friend had adverted to the
evils of the abolished Welch Judge system; but they would
only very partially apply to this case, and the Commis-
sioners especially dwelt on the advantages of local judges
counterbalancing the admitted disadvantages. His Noble
and Learned Friend had most unfairly perverted an area
merit, he (Lord B.) had used in the House of Commons,
founded upon the practice in Scotland ; for, with all the
defects of the system there, it was impossible not to envy
the people of that country the benefit they enjoyed of trials
in the Sheriffs' Courts. The Commissioners, and the
framers of this Bill, wise by experience, and uninfluenced
by temporary clamour, or particular interests, had expressly
excluded from the Bill those cases which were most
liable to objection in the Sheriffs' Courts of Scotland.
He went entirely with his Noble and Learned Friend i❑
the opinion he had expressed, that in all amendments cf
the law, it was most material not to lower the character
of the profession : but if he had thought with him, that the
business at the assizes would fill off to nothing, or that it
would he most importantly reduced in Westminster-hall,
he (Lord 13,) would have taken no part in the intro-
duction of the measure under discussion. He trusted he
had satisfied their Lordships that, instead of there being no
controlling power in Westminster-hall, there would be a
constant and systematic control of the proceedings of local
courts. Front a sincere attachment to, and respect for,
that renowned body of men—the bar of England—he
would do nothing inconsistent with their best and truest
interests; but he contended that this measure would in no
respect lower the character, or indeed interfere with the
just emoluments of the illustrious and virtuous commu-
nity. His Noble and Learned Friend afterwards made
himself merry, if not the House, by his reference to the
proposed courts of reconcilement, which he was pleased,
and very much pleased, to call a scheme, and a crotchet
with their appropriate e-pithets.
Lord LYNDHURST interposed, and said that he had
called it a fanciful project, and no more.
The LORD CHANCELLOR aid not see any material
difference, and it would be no ill definition of a crotchet
to say it was a fanciful project. Although the plan might
be new to British jurisprudence, it was idle to oppose it
merely on the ground that it had been tried in other
countries, especially if in those countries it had perfectly
succeeded. If in Holland, Belgium, Geneva, and Lau-
sanne, the experiment had failed, though only partially
attempted, it might form some objection : but the fact
was, that even there it had been adopted with advantage,
while in Denmark and Norway it had met with the ut-
most success. Be:ides at least it would he attended in
England with this benefit, that the trial would have been
made, and, if it did no good, which be was far from be-
lieving, it was utterly impossible that it could do harm.
In the two countries to which he had referred, as ap-
peared by authentic returns, 72,000 suits had been
brought into the Courts of Reconcilement, and of those no
less than 413,000 had bee❑ there finally settled. Taking
a particular year, 1823 for instance, of 30,000 suits,
21,000 had been decided to the satisfaction of the parties
in the Courts of Reconcilement. They had been esta-
blished in 1796, and in that year the business of the
other courts was reduced one third ; the beneficial
effect, however, was permanent, and, in nearly the same
proportion ; and this, he apprehended, would be about
the extent of the diminution of business in Westminster
Hall. He apologised to their Lordships for detaining them
at so much length, but they would recollect that he was
placed in a peculiar as well as a difficult situation, for he
was called upon to defend not only himself and the Bill,
but the commissioners, in whose report it had originated.
Of all of them he would say that they were men not given
to change, and of four of them that their disposition seas in
favour of no reform but that of the law ; on this account,
therefore, they would recommend themselves to the atten-
tion and respect of many of their Lords!iips, and particu-
larly of his Noble and Learned Friend. Even as law re-
formers, they were scrupulous and timid, although, being
in favour of some reform, they event beyond his Noble and
Learned Friend ; and, for this reason, were looked upon
by him with all the horror of ultra-reformers. His Noble
and Learned Friend had asserted that all Westminster Hall
was opposed to the Bill, while only the five commissioners
were in favour of it;' which was, only in other terms, to
say that all who had not inquired objected, and all who
had thoroughly investigated the subject supported.
therefore, which he did not by any means believe, Wes

minster Hall was opposed to the change, there was
. _ .

one little spot—one
.oasis of the profession of a con-
trary opinion. Let it not be forgotten also that the

commissioners were the very persons to whom his Noble

and Learned Friend had appealed, and by whose judgment
he had almost professed himself ready to be bound. God
forbid that Westminster Hall should not flourish. God
forbid that there should not be ample business at the As-

sizes; but common sense required, if indeed justice did
not clamour for it, that the great shame, the notorious
scandal, the odious opproprium, of our juridical system
should be removed, as hundreds upon hundreds were una-
ble to obtain justice. No roan living could be bold enough
to deny that, for debts of a certain amount, and for wrongs
of a certain description, Courts of Justice were barred in
the face of the subjects of the Crown of England; that to
ta'k of justice was a mere mockery, unless men bad net
only money in their pockets, but folly in their heads to
induce them to throw it away. A small number of pounds
was a serious consideration to a poor man, but there was
something worse than this he had to endure—be meant the
intolerable sense of wrong, and the inability to obtain
right." The Courts cried out, " Come hither and obtain
justice." Judges exclaimed, "You have an illustrious
Bar—come to us under its guidance and protection ;" but
when the poor man listened to the voice and obeyed it, he
found he was injured instead of bring redressed, and what
began in wrong ended in ruin. It teas to relieve them
from this feeling, and to remove the stain from our juris-
prudence, that this measure had been advised and matured.
As to the charge brought against him, that one great ob-
ject of his introducing this Bill was the gain of patronage
—(Lord Lyndhutet made sonic observation)—he must say
the circumstances of the case showed how little foundation
there was for that charge. He had proposed a Bill which
it was said would give him enormous patronage. He had
consented at once to let it go to the Commissioners, to be
delayed for some mouths, and now he only introduced it
as an experiment in two counties, nor would it be extended
to ally other till it had been proved to be successful in its
operation in them. He apologised to their Lordships for
having troubled them at such length, but he thought that
this debate ought not to be allowed to close without his
justifying the grounds on which he bad introduced the
measure, and stating the reasons that now made hint con-
fidently call for the support of their Lordships in passing it.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the question,
" That tile Nouse do now; go into Committee," with a
simple negative, and declared " the Contents" had it.
Lord LYNDHURST said that was not the question,
and mentioned his amendment.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the question,
44 That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the
question," and declared " the Contents" had it.
There was a call for a division, for which the gallery
was cleartd, but none took place. The House, on our
return, went into Committee on the Bill, and some clauses
were agreed to. It was ordered to be recommitted on
Friday next.

ADVERTISEMENTS.
Tl:e Stamp Doty Advertisements Bill went through a
Committee.

QUAKERS' AFFIRMATION BILL.
On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND, their

I
z

Lordships Were ordered to be summoned for Tisursdit
when this 13111 was to come under discussion.
Adjourned at ten o'clock till ten to morrow (this)
morning.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 17.
The SPEAKER. resumed his seat at five o'clock.
On the motion of Sir R. FERGUSON, the writ for
a new election for the borough of Warwick was ordered
to be suspended until Monday, July 1.
Mr. CHAPMAN brought in a Bill to repeal the final
enactments relative to marriages by Roman Catholic cler-
gymen.

Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second titne
on the 28th inst. and to be printed.
FACTORIES LABOUR REGULATION BILL.
Lord ASHLEY moved the order of th. day for the
second reading of the Factories Labour Regulation Bill.
The order of the day having been read,
Lord ALTHORP said it was not his intention to op-
pose the second reading of the Bill ; he agreed that there
should be a restriction in the period of labour for children
in factories. The report of the Commissioners was not
yet ready to be laid on the table of the House; and indeed
the evidence was so voluminous that the report could not be
laid on the table until next week. The Bill, however, could
be read a second time, and the report read in the Com-
mittee on the Bill. It was the opinion of the Commis-
sioners that the Bill did not even go far enough, as far as
some of the restrictions went.
Lord ASHLEY did not understand precisely to what
extent the Noble Lord agreed.
Lord ALTHORP said he meant to observe that he
considered it necessary that a protection be given to chil-
dren under the age of 14, but not at present to interfere
with the labour of adults. In stating that, he was also
stating the opinion of the Commissioners, viz., that the
labour of children under the age of 14 should be re-
stricted to eight hours.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord ASHLEY hoped that the Noble Lord would not
consider that he (Lord Ashley) was bound to the principle
laid down by the Noble Lord except as to limiting the
hours of hbour for children littler 14 years of age to eight
hours a day. His intention in moving the second reading
of the Bill was to conciliate the opponents of the Bill by
withdrawing the most obnoxious clauses—( Hear)—and to
reserve to himself the power hereafter to introduce a
more perfect measure. His great object had been
to obtain the affirmation of the great principle
of the Bill. He wished to know whether the Noble Lord
would promise that the evidence taken before the Com-
missioners would be not only laid on the table, but printed
and circulated in sufficient time ; he had a strong objection
to the manner in which the evidence bad been taken, and
he knew from letters he had received that great dissatis-
faction prevailed as to the mode by which the evidence
had been taken.
Lord ALTHORP suggested whether it was not better
to wait until the report was printed, which would be done
as speedily as possible.
After a short conversation across the table, in which
Lord ASHLEY, Mr. POULETT THOMSON, and Lord AL-
THORP took part, the Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed in a Committee of the whole
House on Friday se'nnight.
On the motion of Mr. C. GRANT, a deputation was
named to confer, immediately, with the Lords on the
subject of the East India Charter. Among the Members
who retired for that purpose were Mr. Robert Gordon,
Mr. Grant, the Solicitor-General, Lord John Russell,
Lord Ashley, Mr. Jarvis, Mr. Littleton, Mr. Spring
Rice, Lord G. Somerset, Mr. Barnard, and Mr. Finn.
Mr. C. GRANT brought up the report from the Lords,
but he read it under the gallery in so low a voice, that it
could not be heard by us.
Colonel WOOD presented a petition from the Arch-
deaconry and clergy of Brecknock, against the Irish
Church Temporalities Bill.
IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES BILL.
Upon the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the Speaker
put the motion that be should leave the Chair, and the
whole House resolved itself into a Committee upon the
Church Temporalities Bill.
Mr. SHAW put a question respecting the 19th clause
of the Bill (as was understood), but both the nature of
the question, and the reply of Lord Althorp were com-
pletely inaudible.
The Ministerial clause was then passed. On the question
that the twentieth clause should stand a Fart of the Bill,
Mr. SHAW suggested that the salaries paid to assist-
ant curates, should be deducted from the amount of in-
comes of such rectors as paid them, before those salaries
were subjected to any charges.
Sir ROBERT PEEL supported the suggestion, and
said that a few words might be easily devised to guard
against the possibility of abuse.
After a few words from Mr. STANLEY, Mr. PRYME,
and Mr. WYNN, Lord ALTHORY was understood to con-
cede to such an amendment, and the clause was then
passed, with a few verbal alterations.
The twenty-first clause was passed without any dissent.
On the twenty-second, Mr. SHAW said that in all
cases where the lay impropriators were not already obliged
to pay a stipulated sum, or provide a sufficient number of
curates, they should be obliged to do so.
Dr. LUSHINGTON wished to know to what legal
remedy the Hon. Member for the University of Dublin
would apply in such cases ?
Mr. SHAW--The common law might be made ap-
plicable.
The clause was then agreed to.
The 23d clause was also agreed to.
On the 24th clause being moved,
Mr. GORING rose, and moved that the words " trans-
lated and promoted" be omitted.
Mr. STANLEY said the Hon. Member objected to the
translation of Bishops, and certainly they did not require
translation so much as a great portion of the speech of the
Hon. Menaber.—(A laugh.) He was disposed to agree
with the Hon. Member that the frequent translation of
Bishops, compelling them to form new acquaintances, and
to exercise their duties amongst strangers, and thus dimi-
nishing their utility, ought to be as much as possible
abridged, but he did not think it right to lay down the
rule that in no case should translations be allowed to take
place. There might be cases in which there was a grew'
inequality between the duties and the pay, and in wb.
red
it would be scarcely right to keep a man of extraortr,inr
a to bring for-
and
who would be more eligibly placed for tb int?.
rests of religion where a wider sphere was aff.orded him
should be altered it. was necessary' to
for the exercise of his talents.—(Hear.) 'At all events,
s ward forA tthperellsenont.trltalnesmiabt'ion.
were
legal,
provide dwhaiuntil the law
provide for any translations or prorr4mions that might take
place. The object of the Hon. Gentleman would not be
attained, even were his amendment to be agreed to, for
the present clause merely provided that a certain amount
of the tax should be paid by an individual Bishop, or be-
tween him and his successor, upon the translation of such
Bishop. The Hon. Gentleman, therefore, could not have
taken a more unfavourable opportunity of bringing forward
his proposition, and he therefore submitted to him who-
tiler it would not be better to withdraw his motion until
he felt persuaded that Parliament would agree with him
in the propriety of abolishing translations altogether.
Mr. SHAW said that as soon as they should arrive at
:a them
the clause relating to the number of Bishops to be reduced,
it was his intention to propose an amendment to the ePieei
that the incomes should be reduced so as to bri
to a level, but that there should be no red"ection g
in the
nutnbzr of the Bishops.
Mr. C. BULLER said that as
Bill was likely to
encounter the greatest opposi`.ron in the House of Lords,
it would be well to liar:A:wee into it as many popular
clauses as PmiblP., in order to obtain for it the support of
the people,

Ale. STANLEY said that the argument of the Hon.
Gentleman was a most extraordinary one. Because the
Bill was likely to encounter great opposition alsewhere,
he thought it advisable to load it with clauses still more
likely to encounter opposition, in order to create an excite-
ment in the country by rendering it popular.—(Hear.)
If the Bid was nut at to be supported by the people, let
it be thrown out, but to introduce clauses for the mere
purpose of excitement would be a course dangerous indeed
for the country.

After a few words from Sir R. Inglis, Mr. C. Buller,
Mr, Briscoe, and Mr. Jervis,
Mr. GORING said that it would be well to render the
Bill such that, if a collisio❑ should take place upon the
Bill between the two Houses of Parliament, the people
might see that their interests had been consulted by the
House of Commons, and not by the House of Lords.—
(Order, order.) As it appeared to be the opinion of the
House that a specific resolution should be brought forward
upon the subject, he should withdraw his amendment.
Lord ALTHORP said that it would be better to
withdraw the amendment, as the omission of the words
in question could have no possible effect.
The amendment was ccns,.quently withdrawn, and the
clause was agreed to.

The `lath, 26th, and 27th clauses were then agreed to.
On the 28th clause being proposed, Mr. GORING
moved that the words " translated and promoted" be
omitted, and that a clause be inserted to prevent the fu-
ture translation of Archbishops or Bishops in Ireland to
any vacant see, providing that the said clause shall nut
impede the uniting of sees according to the provisions
of the said Act.

Dr. LUSHINGTON hoped that the Hon. Gentleman

would not press the chum t• a division. It would he
highly important that some plan should be brought for-
vard to render translations lees frequent than at present,
but that could not be done by any summary proce,s. Ile
did not see that any good could arise from anticipating op.
p mitien to this Bill in another quarter ; on the contrary,
he thought that such anticipation might do much harm.
He was more desirous of conciliation than of collision, and
wished rather that the Bill should meet the views of the
other House of Parliament than that it should encounter any
opposition. If, however, a collision should unfortunately
arise, then it would be for the House to adopt those mea-
,ures which in its wisdom were beet calculated to avert
the evils likely to result from it. It was all but uncon-
stitutional to anticipate the manner in which any measure
'night be received in another place.
The CHAIRMAN suggested that the amendment could
not be received, as it had no direct reference to the clause
under consideration.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG hoped his Hon. Friend would
withdraw the amendment for the present, and it might
afterwards be brought forward on a more convenient
occasion.
The 28th, 29th, 30th, and 31st clauses were next
agreed to, with some verbal amendments.
A long conversation then ensued upon the proposition
for postponing the 32d clause, in consequence of the indis-
position of Mr. Goulburn, one of the Members for the
University of Cambridge. The chief reason urged for
the postponement was, that the clause went to diminish
the number of Irish Bishops, and the constituents of the
Right Hon. Gentleman were particularly interested in the
question.
Lord ALTHORP could not consent to any farther delay.
The Committee then proceeded to the discussion of the
clause.

Mr. HALCOMB intended to propose an amendment,.
with the view of preventing any collision between this
and the other House of Parliament, The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman then read an extract from " Hatsell,"
to show that the message from the Crown on the subject
ought to have been in writing, and not verbal. Front
the various authorities he had consulted, he found that-
the interest of the Crown in church property was nothing
more than a barren trusteeship. Referring to the autbcr-
rity of Mr. Chitty, he saw that all that the Crown could(
claim on the death of an Archbishop, or BishoPi 0189 a
basin, a ewer, and a kennel of hounds. The Hon.
Member then referred to an opinion of Burke . With
respect to the Coronation oath, to which allm ion had
been made, the Hon. Member referred to petitio as pre-
sented from different bodies of the clergy in Engle, ad and
Ireland, in which the petitioners stated that the me asures
of Ministers were in direct contradiction to the Cot 'ova-
tion oath. Upon the construction of the Coronation , oath
he quoted Paley (" Moral Philosophy") and Puffendor if.
After a few words in explanation from Dr. LUSHINGI 'ate,
Mr. POULTER observed that if the Irish Church n me
to be interfered with, it would doubtless lead to an int tr-'
ference with the Church of England. He was determin t&
to support that religion which had for its object the glut 1
of God and the salvation of souls.
Mr. A. LEFROY was rather surprised at the course
taken by the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Stanley), and
in older to show how his (Mr. Stanley's) opinions had
changed upon this question, he would quote an opinion
of his, upon the subject of Irish Church Reform, on a
former occasion. He said that no " incipient danger
ought to warrant us in violating the rights and property of
the Established Church. The church must be supporte4,
or it must be given up altogether. From the nature of
the measures proposed, it appeared as if they were intended
to clip the wings of the church, and humble her preten-
sions; but it would be found upon inquiry, that that
establishment would not be deserted by Parliament, or
that her protectors were either too weak or too indifferent
to protect her--that her wealth excited no alarm, and.
should be protected, whatever clamour might be raised."
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He implored them to con-
sider the opinion of a Learned Judge lately delivered in
Ireland, who stated that " the clergy of that country,were
a link which bound it to this, and if hands were once laid
upon the property of the Irish church, the doom of the
church in this country would be sealed."—(Loud crie. i
As, i_e eats.
of " Hear, hear.")
After a few words from Mr. SHAW, Sir R. Incr.' 3,
and Mr. POULTER, the amendment was put and negative t
alts
without a division.
On the original resolution being put...
Mr. SHAW felt the plan of Government must lo wet
and degrade the Irish Church in the opinion of the rr
Am-
bers of the Irish established church, as well as in th
it or
the population of Ireland generally. He agreed the
times demanded concessions, for the sake of society a
sent circumstanced in Ireland, and he was therefore
pre-
paredpre-
to support the administration in an adju Amen
lowering the amount of the incomes of Irish Body 4.A
Archbishops. No well informed man in the Hon 'Pr -,
:5 would
doubt that the extinction of the blab branch of
blished church of England would be the sir 1
effective means of dissolving the political unto
for the
the two countries. a betv.veen
Mr. STANLEY deprecated a practice, t 40 _
the opponents of his Majesty's Governmen' ;
ofge. oeral in
to them the responsibility of every senti. zent imp oting
,f the Houser
ach occasions,
from Hon. Members on the Ministerial s'ide e which felt
.Bill was to rota
rmiseerealnydbecdiasuayseowMitnhiesiterrpeardtiidcinpoattiononianlleta,e,
He boldly denied that the object of dirk ach sentiments.
.urtail the number, and
the Clergy of Ireland of a single 1144
of the present number of Bishops.. .g by the reduction
Je staff, a fund for the ill-
the Irish Clerical Army was ka*Jo" In fact, the staff of
4 to be too extensive,.
:art such an alteration of the
and it was now, in,temnuddeed?,
s and.
cpraeiadteworkingthis
clreerdguyctoiton
Oreli, ta
Mr. SHAW cor •
reil was a violation of the sth article of
wtEhaseAtsalAbtro'lcitsbGhof MI
S U'C.
, h
'ii°;.BORNE wished to know if the Act of Union,
words
ss
,LinYw everyeo
explanation
stage,hi
dloausluadp: i
;of
onebrectlfi
rntogihmt
the amendment.
nshtiarre beu
et:
„Ell s)tm.ii
vsaevenndd::yotAlyt4rht:eo
=held
aaiil between
wtt
moheaeeatrnl
el
the etAtwe
crotnAni
ctoyatf:i
nations
as
rtiatibmi
jot:,
itenn
parliament.
eu
ig2hrtt
Sir
scar
~
,t, oea I
solemn
ti
be consideredemiNn GL i S
covenants
,slotpAspoiftrst
After
Coloneli
R.
bt
.ahe ißfse
Awßillc
To violated.wEN oisrno
best interests of the Church of Ireland.
thefor stpanucbhlinsupporters of the
and Mr.tphrCeonpoHustoesdn7eAAvisee,nm
Members
An Hole. MEMBER, name unknown, was tiad to find
i t
church,was
'nagh (Col. Conully), to limit the incomes of the Bishops
to 4,0001.
Mr. SHAW hoped Ministers would take the suggestions
of the Hen. Member for Dover into consideration.
Lord ALTHORP denied that the extent of dioceses in
Ireland, considering the n,:anber of dioceses in each, was
too great for the Bisho;,s efficiently to perform their duty.
Mr. STANLEY, in corroboration of this assertion, said
that the arehbis
topric of Team would, after the Bill was
passed, be WI ry greatly reduced in size.
Col. I'ERCEVAL hoped the Government would not
refu%e to listen to the reasonable suggestions which bad
I,een made not to reduce but to equalize the incomes of
the Irish Bishops.

Mr. DOMINICK BROWNE said that one-third of the
Irish Protestants were Presbyterians, who hated the
Episcopacy more than the Catholics. There were still
to remain, out of the 22 Irish Bishops, 12—and cal-
culating the respective areas of Ireland, England, and
Wales, it would be found that even these 12 were as
great a number for that country as 26 were for England
and Wales.

The clause, as amended, was then added to the Bill,
without a division—the Hon. Member tor Dover having
consented to withdraw his amendment.
Clause 33 was read, and agreed to.
When the Committee came to the 39th clause, which
was agreed to without discussion, several Hon. Members
expressed their disinclination to proceed any further at so
late an hour.

Lord ALTHORP said it was his intention to go on
with the Bill de die in diem till all the clauses were
gone through, and therefore he did not object to the
propositions for not proceeding further on the present
occasion.

The Chairman then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again to-day.
The report of the Committee on Irish tithes was brought
up, and the resolutions agreed to.

SHERIFFS' EXPENSES BILL.
Mr. F. PALMER moved that the House resolve itself
into a Committee on this Bill.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL opposed the motion, and said
that the House ought not to go into it at so late an hour
of the night.
The House then divided on the question that the
Speaker do leave the Chair.

For the motion 42
Against it `.)s

Majority -17
The House then went into a Committee on the Bill.
After a protracted discussion on the third clause the
Committee divided.

Ayes. ................. . .......
Noes ................. l7
Majority for the clause .;-15
The clause Was then agreed to, a was likewise the

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