The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-13 00:00:00

THE SUN,

Average price of the three foregoing de-
scriptions of sugar, jointly, computed as
above, and exclusive of duty ... 255. 3d. „
By authority of Parliament,
lIENLY BICKNELL, Clerk of the Grocers' Company,
Grocers'-hall, June 13.

MARKET INTEL LIGEN CE.
(From the London New Price Current, June 13.)
SErGAR.—To-day there was a much better demand for
West India Sugar for home consumption; tha rates ob-
tained are equal to those of Friday last, and in some
cases Gd above. The purchases today were 1,190 hhds,
&c., including at auction 125 hhds 12 trcs 95 brls ar-
badoes, which realized 40s to 41s for fine yellow, 36s to
36s 6d for low to good, and fair brown 35s to 35s Gd.
REFINED.—To-day home dealers were buyersvebecome
to a
fair extent of Refined goods, and r6aste6sd
h
firm; low to good grocery lumps at 4
demand is not better for Crushed Sugar; there
ever, no reduction in the value. tao 49i ss
how-
ever, o e
MAIIRITIIIS.—This afternoon
of Mauritius Sugar, but privately bags
found
sale
buyers at rates equal to last Friday.
EAST INDIA.—This afternoon
there
aboutw27oonoo
good demand and realized fnll terms;
a Bengal
at Sugarauctionmet
with,63
333 to 375, and good
bags sold, good and fine white Benares went at 4ls 6d
to 42s 6d, date yellow ord to good
soft brown 29s 6d to 303. Of Ceylon 50 casks realized
36s to 363 ad for fair yellow.
FOREIGN.—
there tto 22s a
r fore
few
To-day there was more
offerededesire tofo
r operate
in Foreign Sugar for exportation;
andfloat-
ing cargoes
eollfo Browny,
H a v
ann a Bahia,h
ditto,
iatntd 20 s
bat 6
sellers thereat. Of white Bahia 1,200 bags realized 403
per cwt, duty paid. For auction 22,000 Java are de-
ya.ppearance for all
c 1 amr eodLbays
stEhae. thceh
inTarrakdeitnhga
sCao mg
up
iaent
sorts, whilst rates have a downward tendency. For the
week only 150 hhds West India have been sold at from
12s 6d to 16s for low to fine, only small parcels Of
Bengal and Mauritius have been disposed of at 12s,
Cuba and Porto Rico at 15s to 15s Gd per cwt.
COCOA.—The home trade demand has been better for
West India private treaty this week and rather higher
rates are paid, red Trinidad selling at 41s to 475, grey
37s to 40s and Grenada 35s to 40s. In Foreign opera-
tions are however still upon a small scale ; Bahia and
Para at 26s to 283„ and Guayaquil 30s per Mt.
COFFEE.—To-day there was a reluctance on the part
of all parties to do business in Coffee, and rates still
have a downward tendency. At auction 351 bags Na-
tive Ceylon were taken in at 375 to 38s, and of 164 casks
Plantation a part only sold at easier rates, good mid
went at 53s to 54s 6d, mid 49s to 525, other sorts 41s to
48e, good ord pale 38s to 40, triage 34s 6d to 375, and
mid pea berry 57s 6d to 60s per cwt.
TEA.—To-day the public sales of Tea went off with
much dulness, and of 11,500 pkgs passed, the small quan-
tity of 2,400 which sold, nearly all green, for which the
rates taken are ld per lb under those previously cur-
rent. Scented Teas went:rather cneaper, as also did the
small quantity of Congou that sold. The' value of good
ord is now 10d to Mid.
RICE.—To-day several parcels of East India were sold
privately at full former rates, and 1,365 bags realized
lOs 6d to Ils for fine white, and damaged 9s to Os 6d
per cwt.
SPICES —Full rates have been obtained for Nutmegs,
and auction 40 pkgs were sold, good brown want at 3s
to 3s 4d, mid and good mid 2s 6d to 2s 10d, small
2s ld so 2s sd, and wormy 7d to is 6d per lb. The
value of fine brown is as 5d to 3s 10d, and of low
to good limed is 6d to 2s 7d. Mace is wanted,
and realize full last week's rates. At auction
7 cases, and 2s to 2s Id for good thirds; privately better
sorts are selling at 2s 2d to 2s 7d. The limited bnsiness
done in Pepper has been rather under late rates. At
auction 1.929 bags Malabar were disposed of et 3
to 34d for good shot, whilst 1,282 bags Batavia
and Penang were taken in at 24d for good
light. Clean Sumatra can bo obtained at 21,1 to 3d
per lb. White has been purchased with caution at .sil
to 7.f. Of African Pod 1173 bgs at auction were taken
in at 453 for mid, but two cases fine Cap/rine sold at Is
9d to is 11d per lb. Although rates are low for Cloves,
dealers still operate with caution, and at auction 120
cases Bourbon and Z eozihar only realized 6d to 6i.
The value of Penang is 9d to is 3d, and Am-
boara 8d to Bd. For Pimento the demand is on the in-
crease, and the parcels soli privately were at rather
higher rates. At auction 263 were disposed of, good
mid went at 4id to 41-J, low mid and mid 4-ad to 4id.
Paces hai e again given way for Ginger, suit-
able for home consumption the sudply being
on the increase. At auction 183 pkgs Jamaica
were sold, good went at 95s to 1065, mid and good mid
703 903, other sorts 62s to (382. 340 cases Cochin a small
part only sold at 53s ad to 55s for mid, and at 60s to
65s for goer), whilst 204 bgs African were taken in
at 30s. The value of export East India remains at 155
to 17s, and with few buyers. Of preserved Ginger GO cs
at auction were again taken in at 9d per lb. Cassia Lig-
nea is held with fin/mess at 90s to 100 s, only small
orders have been executed. Cassia Buds are scarce,
and realize 105 s to 110 s. At auction cs Cassia Vera
sold at 36s to 476 per cwt. In Cinnamon there is rather
more trade doing, still rates remain for Ceylon at is to
3s 6d per lb.
.r,CCCIIINEAL.—To-day at sale 80 bags Honduras Co-
chineal sold at 23 1 Id to 3s 2d for low to ord, with a few
mid silvers; 12 bags good Mexican silvers taken in
at 2s.

SirTrETuE."*To-day at auction 1,110 bgs Calcutta
Saltpetre were offered, a part was withdrawn, and the
remainder sold at stiff rates, mid 131 to lli per cent
:refraction at 25s 6d, 17 per cent 255, good 61 at 27,.
INDIGO.—The quarterly sale has been fixed for the
Sth of July, and at present 9,200 chests aro declared.
The stock is 4,000 chests more than last year, deliveries
decreased 4,400, and imports aro 1,600 chts larger.
Spanish dull and late rates are with difficulty supported.
At auction 21 erns Guatemala sold at 2s 7d to 4s 9d,
and one lot low is 10d. The stock is 2,280 srns.
SPIRITS.—Eass India Rum is not offered under ls 3d
proof, but there are now few buyers, and larger parcels
are on offer. Leeward Island has been operated in
with caution at is 4id to is sid proof; still holders
are not disposed to press sales. Of Demerera severat
parcels have i been 'sold, but no advance ; prices ruling
at is 10d to 93 2d for 30 to 40 per cent. over proof.
Fine Jamaica has been in gooe demand, both for home
corsumption and shipping, and the rates paid have been
3s 3d to 4s 3d for 34 to 38 over proof. For other sorts
there is a dull market, with sellers of plain and mid qua-
lity 30 to 35 over at 2s 3d to 2s 6d;
good mid to good 32 to 36 over at 2s 7d to 3s 2d.
There is no advance for Brandy. Prices are firm ; and
rule for best braoda of the vintage of 1850 4s 4d to
43 6d, 1849 ditto 4s 7d to 4s 9d, 1848 ditto 4s lid to
5s Id, 1847 ditto 5s 4d to 5s 6d, older sorts 5s 10d to
7s, inferior kinds 2s 6d to 3s 10d, and ißordeaux 2s 2d
to 2s Bd. Geneva is 7d to is 8 for ord, and fine is 9d
to 2s,

Wm.—This afternoon the quantity of Sperm Oil
offered at public sale was 150 tuns, and chiefly bold;
British at 791 10s to 841 ss; and Heade:tatter 89/, these
are lower rates.
TALLOW.—Thin afternoon the public sales of New
South %Vales Tallow, consisting of 660 casks, went at
lower rates; Sheep at 35s 3d to 36s 9J; Ox, 33s 9,1 to
35s 61; 12 casks Bermuda, 31s 9d to 34s 3d.

MPERIAL PARLIAMENT,
(Tills EVENING.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

NEW MEMBER.
Sir A. S. CAMPBELL took the oaths and his seat for
Argyleshire. The Hon. Member was introduced by Sir
J. Hope and Sir R. H. Inglis.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The Lords' amendments to the following Bills were
considered, and agreed to:—
Briton Ferry, Docks, and Railway.
South Devon Railway.
THIRD READINGS.
The following Bills were read a third time:—
Copper Miners m England Company.
Dublin, Dundrum, and Rathfarnham Railway.
Great Malvern Improvement, Police, Sewers, Water,
works, Gas and Markets.
Shrewsbury end Chester Railway.
Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, and Dublain Railway.
The following Bills were considered and agreed to and
ordered to be engrossed:—
Cheltenham Improvement and Health.
East Anglian Railways.
Electric Telegraph Company.
Magneto-Electric Telegraph Company.
Newark-upon-Trent Improvement and Market.
United Kingdom Electric Telegraph Company.
The Christchurch (Southwark) Parish Bill was read a
second time and ordered to be committed.
PETITIONS.
Mr. ANDERSON presented a petition from a Soot-
"lsre.ar, praying for the abolition of light dues.
Edwards,
presented a second petition from
ANHieebhwargnye,atezzbaylweacturhdoes, the witness who was committed to
House for misconduct before the St.
The Hon. Committee, praying to be released.
should moveti
lbeit'egave notice that on Monday he
a printed, with the view of founding
motionmniittoprio
ITLImTAIN WATER BILL.
ted similarY
Mr. Alderman
from Southwark against the RY presented a petition
gaiest
trpolitan Water Bill,
counsel.
ratepayers rp.ramyclinvvg tAoTbeThperaersdena
eioLn from the
ratepayers of Marylchone.
Sir G. GREY presented a petition from Finsbury
favour of tßill. On the mobstion of the Right Hon.in
Baronet, it deFed that an instruction to the
Committee of Selection to refer the several Bills con-
nected with the supply of water to the metropolis to the
same Committee to which the Mttropolis Water Bill is
to be referred.
Mr. Alderman lIUMPIIERY presented a petition
from the parish of St. ()lure's also against the Bill.
Sir B. HALL presented similar petitions from St.
Andrew's, Holborn, and St. George the Martyr.
All these petitions were ordered to be referred to the
Select Committee on the Bill.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Mr. C. LEWIS, it was agreed that
the House at its rising should adjourn till Monday next.
Lord
SPIRITSIN BOND.
N AnA
of Commerce
S presented a petition from the Chamber
in the
modeof at Edinburgh, praying for an alteration
bond. levying duties on hume-made spirits in

BRITISH MERCHANTS IN VENEZUELA.
Mr. DISRAELI presented a petition from Mr. Ward,
a British merchant, resided at Caraccas, complaining
of the oppression of the Government of Venezuela.
The petitioner stated that, after having been established
at Caraccas for more than a quarter of a century he was

suddenly arrested at his private residence by the Govern-
ment of Venezuela, and thrown into the common pri-
son, and there kept a prisoner for the space of twenty-
six days, on a groundless suspicion that he was con-
cerned in some revolutionary project.—(Hear, hear.)
Oa his liberation from the common prison ho was not
allowed to depart from Caraccas for seven months, and
the consequence was his effairs and his coffee evate went
to ruin. This imprisonment was contrary to the con-
stitution of the country, and a violation of the law of
nations. He applied to the Venezuelan Government
for redress, and one of the local tribunals assessed the
damages which he had sustained by the loss of his
cotree estate at 35,000 dollars, but the Government
had neglected to pay either that or another claim of
25,000 dollars which he had against them. He bad,
hewitlhegoulalt
therefore, come over to this country and appealed to
our Government to interfere, but hitherto without
o
success, and as he had been advised by h
authorities in England that his imprisonment was a direct
violation of the law of nations. He prayed the House to
take his case in hand and cause it to be fully investi-
gated. The Hon. Gentleman gave notice that on Mon-
day he would address a question to the Under-Secretary
of the Colonies on the subject of this petition.
next GOVERNMENT BUSINESS.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that on the Ist of July
the orders of the day have precedence of notices of
motion on Thursday. The Noble Lord observed that
at this period of the session it was desirable that the
House should be enabled to proceed with those Bills
which were already on the paper.
Mr. DISRAELI said when the arrangement was first
proposed some sessions ago the Government had a
variety of measures of very great importance which it
was desirable should be passed. The House on that oc-
casion cheerfully agreed to the motion, notwithstanding
it was a great sacrifice of the privileges of independent
Members, but he was not aware that such a prodigious
number of Bills was before the House this session as
would justify the Government in bringing forward this
motion. He should, however, not formally oppose the
motion, though he considered it would be a very dan-
gerous precedent if they agreed to it as a matter of
course.
Mr. FRENCH observed that the Government had to
propose several measures which were of very great im-
portance to Ireland.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought the Government were
treating the House very unceremoniously in asking the
House to agree to such a motion. The effect of it would
be to surrender the whole business of the House into the
hands of the Government. He should oppose the Noble
Lord's proposition, because he considered it very unrea-
sonable, as it amounted to a prohibition to private
Members to proceed with the Bills which they might
introduce.
Sir B. HALL took the opportunity of asking Lord
John Russell whether it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to intoduce a Bill that session with respeot to the
Metropolitan Commission of Sewers?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Government had been
prevented bringing in the Bill in consequence of the
delay in the progress of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
As to the, motion, he observed that the Government
were called upon now more than ever to introduce mea-
sures of legislation, and, besides, it was their duty to
bring forward all questions relating to the supplies of
the year, which now took up a much greater amount of
time than formerly.
After some further discussion,
The gallery was cleared, but the motion was - sub-
sequently agreed to without a division.
CHANCERY REFORM.
Lord J. RUSSELL rhse to move for leave to bring in
a Bill to improve the administration of justice in the
Court of Chancery and the Judicial Committee of Privy
Council. Ho said a Bill on this subject was impera-
tively called for by the necessity which existed to
relive the Lord Chancellor of some of the duties at pre-
sent imposed upon him both in the Court of Chancery
and the House of Lords, and after some consideration,
one thing seemed certain, that it was desirable to retain
the Lord Chancellor in his present political func-
tions, and in his position as Speaker of the
House of Lords. A proposal had been made
that two juries, the Master of the Rolls, and a
common law judge should sit in the Court of Chancery,
to take the business when the Lcrd Chancellor should be
absent, but objections had made to this scheme by many
parsons of great experieeco in the Court cf Chancery.
Among others, he had received a letter from the late la-
mented Lord Cottenhem, whose opinion was that the
measure ought to be directed more to the relief of the
Lord Chancellor himself than the Court of Chancery.
One important principle which had b.en laid down, and
on which Lord Cottenbam himself had drawn up
and introduced a Bill, was to separate the judicial
and political functions of the Lord Chancellor,
to have a Chief Judge in Chancery to sit in the Court of
Chancery, and in place of the Lord Chancellor, end
another to sit in the House of Lords in appeals. The
objection mode to that plan was that unless a judge
sitting in appeals in the House of Lords were to sit
at some period or other in the original court he would not
be able to preserve that ability which ho once might have
possessed, and his decisions would lose that weight
which attached at present to those of the Lord
Chancellor sitting in appeals. Another mode
would be to appoint a Vice-Chancellor to sit
in the place of the Lord Chancellor when ho was
absent in the discharge of political functions, but that
was open to the charge that although the name and the
authority cf the Lord Chancellor might be attached to
the Vice-Chanchellor, yet the decisions in appeals after
all would carry with them only the influence of the de-
cision of one subordinate judge set against another. The
mode which appeared to him (the Noble Lord) to pos-
sess the greatest advantages, and to be least open to ob-
jection was that during the absence of the Lord Chancellor
from his own court, two judges appointed for that espe-
cial purpose, to be called the judges of the Appeal Court,
should sit to decide on all cases brought before them.
The only objection which he could foresee to this plan
was the increased expense, which would be brought upon
this country, or on the suitors' fund, but they must
remember that a great object was to be gained.
There could be no doubt that the amount of business
disposed of in the Court of Chancery was very great
indeed. By a return which had been laid before the
House of Lords, it appeared that from the 2nd of
November, 1850, to the 13th May, 1851, the number of
cases disposed of in all the courts was no less
than 5,270. Now that was an enormous amount of
business, and showed how excessive the labour of those
must have been who had the disposal of it.—(Hear,
hear.) The experience of late years bad proved that
when all the judges regularly attended their courts,
the business that came before them could be easily got
rid of; but in case of illness overtaking any one of them,
the whole machinery of the courts was checked, and the
business immediately fell into arrear. Again, the Lord
Chancellor's attention was often called away from
his judicial functions by having to attend to his
political duties. Now, he proposed to provide for those
contingent evils in this way :—Whenever the Lord
Chancellor should be attending the House of Lords one
of the judges of this new Court of Appeal should sit for
him, and then the business would not be interrupted.
He pr: posed besides, that in case of any one of the
other judges of the Court of Chancery, from
illness or other cause, should be unaLL to attend his
court, the Lord Chancellor should have the power of
makiug such an arrangement as to enable one of the
Judges of the Court of Appeal to sit for him.--(Hear,
hear.) The advantage of this provision was obvious, it
would save the public from the annoyance of loosing
an accomplished judge like the late Vice-Chancellor
Wigram, through temporary illness, because the Lord
Chancellor would be in a position to supply the place of
any of the existing judges by appointing one of his own
colleagues to sit either for three weeks or three months as
the case might be. Another advantage of this arrangement
would be this. It would give the Lord Chancellor more
time to attend to his political duties, and watch the pro-
gress of those measures which might tram time to time
be. brought forward for amending or improving the
law.—(Elear, hear.) For instance, of late, only in this
very session the Lord Chancellor had been prevented
by his jndicial functions from attending on the Bank-
ruptcy or County Courts' Committee in the other House,
and ler these reasons he thought it highly desirable that
they shculd adopt the plan he had proposed, namely,
appoint two new judges, who should be called .Judges
of the Court of Appeal, and who fhould exercise the
functions he had already specified. With regard to the
financial view of the subject, he did nut think rho bur
den would be very heavy on the public, because he pro-
posed, as he stated en a former occasion, that in future the
Lord Chancellor, instead of 14,00 a year, should receive
' 0,0004 a year, thereby prodveing a saving of 4,0001. a

year, and that the Master of the-Rolls should receive
6,000/. a year instead of 7,0001., thereby saving 1,0002 a
year.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to these
two tew judges to be appointed under this
Bill he proposed that they should be placed on the
same looting as the Master of the Rolls, namely, that
each judge should receive 6,000/. a year, which
would increase the expense on the suitors' fund
by the 12,0001. a year, but then against that they must
place the saving of 5,0001, thus reducing the actual
increased expense to only 7,0001. a year.—(Hear, hear.)
He pioposed not only that the two judges of the court
of appeal should be Privy Councillors, but also that three
judges should form a quorum, and in that way ho thought
it would not be difficult to obtain a sufficient
number sf Members to attend the Committee.
He did not propose to alter the constitu-
tion of the court, which had worked most
safely, and was looked up to with confidence. All he
proposed was to give greater facility for the transaction
of business. The Noble Lord concluded by asking
leave to bring in the Bill.
Mr. STUARTasked the Nobe Lord whether at this late
period of the session, when there was already such a pres-
sure of public business, he thought he could bring forward
a measure of such enormous importance with any hope
that it would receive a sufficient amount of considera-
tion to put it into such a shape as would justify the
House in passing it into law this year? The provisions
and details of the Bill were entirely new
to the House, and would require a very
gat de.
wohfothdereltibheoriaairigone.nonoslstion dnefsbernvseindess
into
the Court of Chancery arose from accidental circum-
stances, or from the effects of recent legislation. It
would also be well to consider whether a great portion
of that business
rmight not be conveniently, advan-
otafgeeenther; tarnibdunPalesperly
of a want of business
of making
thther.airnsact
ge nh the t
it
would liberty
impossible, who
awshhni oo:d2duntilihrdtnn.aook usl7o
supplyme
degree adapt the Court e
respectivec d by
ctohuer
ts. judges
li o
wnsefrue ladl
thesenvoawne
advanced
dcomplainingasobservations,th es ea
ETIIELL svpported the and
wal'atonpecaessasaitryeatlblyat had perfect measure.
nwhich he thought
gt ob etehne Wg
growing
before
orel the Masters,
iaonofbusiness
intelligence ofthe In regard
be before
the
House which would relieve those functionaries of that
htmoeetrhbieloslicaivcecdumn
and
that a Bill would shortly.

part of their duties which burdened and harrassed them,
and to some extent prevented the due administration of
justice.—(Hear.)

(LEFT SPEAKING.)

MANCHESTER RACES.
(THIS DAY.)

(BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH,

Lady Eden

The Castle Liven Stakes.

Grand Stand Plate.

... 1

... ••• ... •••
The Salford Borough Cup.

... 2

... 2

JUNE

Select Committee, e hich be had meant to move for
adoption as en am, ndment were, " Thu' in 1792, at the
commencement of the war with France, the number of
admirals was only en; after 33 years' peace the
present number of admirals is 150, exclusi
of the retired admirals, and of three,
75 ove
f
the effective list are above 70 years of age. A
certain proportion of the list of admirals must
he composed of officers who have grown old in the
service, who deserve well of their country, and who are
entitled to higher rank and to higher pay on account of
their merits, although they are no longer able to serve
afloat; but when it is considered that in the last naval
war with France (the greatest on record), not more than
thirty-six admirals were employed at any one time, and
that at the present moment the services of only fourteen
are required, it would not seem unreasonable that the
number of admirals now fixed, according to the scheme
sanctioned in 1846, at 150, should he gradually reduced
to a number not exceeding 100. Your Committee re-
commend that this gradual reduction should be effected
by promoting only one captain to the rank of admiral on
the death of three flag officers, according to the rule of
promotion adopted in 1830 until the list: shall have been
reduced to the maximum of 100; and thenceforth a cap-
tain may be promoted to fill each vacancy as it occurs on
the lists." On behalf of the naval officers he (Mr.
Hume) felt bound to say that he considered that rule ex-
tremely hard which made promotion contingent only
upon six years' command of a ship in peace end four in
war, seeing that many of them were within five or six
months of that period of service when their command
had expired.
Sir F. BARING said the Hon. Gentleman had asked
him how ho could maintain an opinion based on the
plan that had been suggested? His Hon. Friend, how-
ever, did not appear to object entirely to the plan in
question. The Board of Admiralty had recommended a
plan, the principle of which was this:—ln the halt-pay
of tho active-list officers had qeen included who were
not on active service. Now considering the large num-
ber of officers unemployed, the country justly com-
plained of the few that were actually on active service,
though, at the same time, they figured on the half-pay
active list. He thought, therefore, it was expedient to
modify the list, so as to have only those on the active
list who were really employed or capable of employ-
ment; removing those who had been placed on the ac-
tive list for good and gallant services, but who, from age
or infirmities, were unable really to perform active ser-
vice. That was the plan proposed by Government.
His Honourable Friend, however, objected to removing
from the list those officers who the Admiralty by
, their proposed plan thought advisable should be
removed. But he must remind the House that
it would be impossible to follow out this or
any other plan of reform without doing alleged injustice
and violence to the feelings of certain parties. Bat what
injustice, be asked, would be done by the proposed alte-
ration? He contended no injustice would be done what-
ever. On the contrary, the parties affected by the pro-
posed alteration would be placed in even a better posi-
tion. The same chances of service would exist, and
their pay would be placed on a better footing. In the
' event of a war, the Crown reserved to itself the right of
placing them on active service, with their own consent.
The very hardship complained of was, that from the
great number of captains it was impossible to find em-
ployntent for them. His opinion was that we ought not
to have a greater number of officers than the service of
the country demanded. A proper reduction of the num-
ber of officers was advantageous to the service and to the
country. If the House would permit him to follow out
the new arrangements—which he admitted had been met
with disapproval in some quarters—he firmly believed
they would be found of great advantage to the service
generally. He begged to move the vote of 6500/.
Mr. HUME said one great complaint was that parties
who were not in service during the war had been pro-
moted, while others who had been in the war were
passed over.
Sir F. BARING replied, but was not heard in the
gallery.
Mr. WILLIAMS did not approve of the result of
Committees generally. Take, for instance, the Com-
mittee on salaries. They had made certain recommen-
dations, but all those roc ,rnmendations had been thrown
overboard. He also objected to the practice of one First
Lord of the Admiralty making reconauseadations, which
his successor, perhaps, would neglect or refuse to carry
out. This system, at least, ought to be modified.
The House ought not to agree to any increase in
the amount of the retired navy list until the House had
sufficient security that the plan would be carried out.
The Government scheme presented a favourable contrast
to the scheme of 1846, which was adopted more for the
benefit of individuals than for the general interest of the
navy. He wished the Right Hon. Gentleman to get an
order in Council to compel every First Lord of the Ad-
miralty to carry out the proposed scheme of his prede-
cessors. However, he feared that was a request not
likely to be granted. He thought the House ought to
assent to the proposal of Government.
Sir DE LACY EVANS understood that the object of
Government was to promote eventual economy without
impairing the efficiency of the service. These were two
principles which he must always approve of; but he had
been informed that the scheme in question would neither
attain economy nor would add to the efficiency of the
service, because coupled with conditions which involved
the sacrifice of both of these important principles. Now
with regard to efficiency, ho had been informed that
some of the later promotions of admirals had been indi-
viduals upwards of 70 years of age. In times of peace
he could not say that an admiral 70 years of age was
not an efficient officer, nor was he inefficient in tiase of
war. But to comp to the cases of individuals, he would
refer to the case of Sir G. Westphal! (we understood),
who had been actively employed during the war, and was
now a most efficient officer, but he was to be set aside
by the new plan as soon as ho was made an admiral.
This was insulting the feelings of an efficient officer
without promoting economy, or promoting the efficiency
of the service. There was also the case of Admiral
Watts, who only desired to be employed in the service
of his country, but who could hardly expect, if the plan
was adopted, ever to succeed in his wishes. If the
compulsory part of the clause was not altered, ho cer-
tainly must vote against the Government proposition.
Sir G. PECHELL did not think the proposition
likely to effect much good, and he doubted whether the
plan could be carried out for the sum stated. He did not
think due consideration was paid to the commanders and
subordinate officers, though it had been admitted on all
sides that no class of officers were more meritorious.
The expense of the plan would be, not 6,500/. as stated,
but 15,180/. Ho agreed in what had been said that some
cases of hardship would occur in compulsorily carrying
out the scheme, and thought some consideration ought
to be shown towards such officers as were able and wil-
ling to serve. Some of the officers on the retired list
would be as capable as officers on the active list. Was
he to understand that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
proposed that officers on the retired list might be called
on again to serve? He should like very much to see a
list of those whom the Right Hon. Baronet stated might
have had a ship, and who consequently would have been
eligible at the present moment for a flag. Within the
last ten or twelve years the service had been governed
by a clique who had made out an active list of their
own.—(Bear, hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT was glad that the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had undertaken to grapple with this question, though
he confessed he was disappointed with the result.
He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman might improve
the plan if he gave it farther consideration. With re-
ference to the remark of the Hon. and Gallant Officer
who last spoke, he might state that there was no more
widely-spread popular delusion than that everything at
the Admiralty was done by interest. He said so, not
merely with reference to the board with which he him-
self had been connected, but having watched the promo-
tions that had taken place during the time of Lord
Auckland, as well as those made by the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite, he believed there was no ground for
the accusation that Parliamentary or any, other influence
had been used to put an incapable officer over the heads
,of those whose merits were acknowledged. The ques-
tion of retirement was brought under his notice when
he was at the Admiralty; but the proposal which he had
made did not touch the question of admirals who had
not served for a certain time, because that point was
considered to have been settled by the navel and mili-
tary commission. The necessity of having younger men
for the flag had been universally admitted. In 1811 the
average age of captains promoted to the flag was only
39. Sir G. Cockburn obtained his flag at 39, and so did
Lord Nelson. The result of the retirement in 1846 had
been so far satisfactory, that it had bettered the posi-
tion of officers by at least five years. He did not see
any advantage in the proposed plan of putting those
officers who had not served six years on a separate list.
He was not sure if the Right Hon. Baronet had stated
that these officers were not to be eligible for future
service.
Sir F. BARING had stated that he thought it advis-
able in respect of admirals and subordinate officers,
that in case of war the Crown should have the power
of placing them, with their consent, on the active list.
Mr. S. HERBERT' said that that would not give
them tforehe right to employment in the time of peace; and,
, their position would be worse than it now
was. He was never inclined to stand out for the right
of individuals against the public service; but he must
say he did not see how younger admirals were to be ob-
tained by placing the names of 100 of them on one page
and the names of 50 on another page. Indeed, the plani
so far from diminishing, would increase the list. In
round numbers there ware 110 admirals on the active
and 40 on the inactive list. It was proposed to buy off
10 from the active list by pensions of 150/. each, and to
leave 100 on the list. The promotion was to be made
from the captains' list by seniority, and the officer who
had served six years was to be entitled to be put on the
active list for any vacancy that might occur. But, sup-
pose there stood at the head of the captains' list five
offisers. If the four seniors had not served six years they
would not be entitled to their five The fifth would go to
the active list, and his four seniors would go to the inactive,
so that there would be in such a case 100 on the active and
54 on the inactive list. Where no clear and deciaed ad-
vantage was to be gained to the public service, the
rights of individuals ought to be respected. Ia the pre-
sent case he saw no advantage in separating the names
beyond making more apparent the names of those
officers who could serve,which was, in truth, the grievance
of which they complained. He did not see the object to
be gained by taking a course
which would do some! vio-
lence to the feelings of these officers. In his opinion it
be
was worthy of consideration whether it would not
better to allow the officers to die off rather than remove
their names from the list. Wish respect to the other
ranks, he was nut quite sure if he understood the plan.
He had a strong CHI: vimion that the immense extent of
the navy list aas of the greatest evil,
..hot only to the
to r publicclduseeerivri.ce,lbbu,t
!t ;Do int()
,duirvai (bi ul
ea 1
as .t,
(T 1 hoe
~,di
li faini ctu
It ye
ember o
wase bn::
posite had asked for justice to the war efficers; but it
might not to be forgotten that at the end of the war a
vast promotion
- took place, which had clogged the list
ever rinse. Subsequent promotions had been for sub-

3, 1851.

sequent services. Promotion was not only a reward
fur good service, but it was granted in order to secure
to the country the services of men capable of defend-
ing it in an emergency. The necrnsity for retires
mint on the captains' I:st was iadispensable but in
the inferior ranks of cernmanders and litutenauts there
was not the same object for retirement. He hoped the
Admiralty would never concede their right of eelection,
for in case of a war it would he absolutely requisite to
exercise some such right. It would bt bad econerny to establish retirement in those ranks in which it was not
necessary. There were many captains who would be ex-
cluded by this system from their flea, who might other-
wise have obtained it. He thought it was absolutely ne-
cessary to fix the number of captains, and was inclined to
believe that a smaller number was saiviselele. The more•
the list of captains was reduced—provided a sufficitent
number were secured—the better would it be for the
service and for the officers themselves.—(hear.,) Look-
ing at the present number, he thought a lower ratio
might be taken. At present there were 75 captains em-
ployed on full pay, and there were 7 in the civil service;
together, 82. Now, he thought a list of 350 unnecessary
from which to mike the selection. Even if the number
were treble the list would be ample. Ho should there-
fore suggest the fixing of the active list at a lower
amount. He apprehended that whatever arrangement
was now made it would be binding on succeeding boards.
He should prefer seeing a regular study annual promo-
tion instead of the present periodical, and, he might
say, gambling system. He did not know whether the
present Admiralty considered that, as regarded officers
retiring from the active list, the promotions to the va-
cancies would be on the system of one in three.
Sir F. BARING said that they would.
Mr. S. HERBERT—At present the number of cap-
tains who had accepted the retirement (as the Hon.
Member was understood) was 218, and there was a
prospect of some twenty more also doing the same. He
hoped, however, that the Right Hon. Baranet would
place a limitation to the extent of that retirement, and
that the list should be gradually allowed to die out. By
the system of promotion at present in operation in the
navy it was not cno to every three that was appointed,
as was supposed, but one to every two, as it was now in
the army. He would show how he maintained that al-
legation. Assuming, then, that 27 captains had died off,
there would be nine commanders promoted, and, in ad-
dition, there would be four lieutenants advanced to the
rank of commanders. Thus there would be 13 promo-
tions, in all, upon the falling in of the 27 vacancies.
Whatever was done now in the way of arranging the
navy list should be done advisedly and with due consi-
deration, for it should be binding on all future Admi-
ralties. It was the more necessary, therefore, that
all their plan should be well considered and well
devised ; and he hoped the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman would not object to reconsider part of it,
so as to render any future change uncalled for
and useless. He would take the liberty of making
a few suggestions on the subject. He would propose to
leave the present Admirals' list, supposing at 150, as a
maximum. But hereafter he would never have the ac-
tive list exceed 100, and when the 150 came down to that
number he would there have it stop. The 150 would in
a very short time come down to the proposed standard of
100, without doing anything of injustice, or inflicting
any unncessary pain upon the feelings of a body of officers
in every way deserving of respect. He would wish to
see the captain's list of 350 less than that number, for
that was more than he thought was necessary. On re-
ferring to the number of captains, commanders, and lieu-
tenants at present employed, he found it amounted in all
to 742. He would, therefore, propose for the captains'
active list 250, for the commanders' 300, and for the
lieutenants' 1,000; and that, he thought, would be suf-
ficient for all the requirements of the service. Is would
b- perfectly easy to make any selectisn necessary from
these three different ranks. He hoped the Right ILn,
Gentleman would take his suggestions in good part, and
give them due consideration in carat ing out his plan.
Sir G. TYLER doubted much whether the plan pro-
posed would have the effect which it was intended, and
which the Hon. Member for Montrose desired it should
have. It had been said that when captains arrived eat
the top sf their list they were too old, and therefore un-
fit fur active service. This had been ascribed to the
great promotions which had taken place in 1815 and
subsequently, which bad clogged the list. The proposi-
tion which was now made was, that all those unfit for
employment should be removed to the half-pay list.
Now he would ask them to examine in what that alleged
unfitness might consist. It might proceed from various
causes, anti be well-founded or otherwise. He main-
tained, however, that the act of placing those who had
not served on the captains' list, out of te chance of pro-
motion, was an act of injustice to tee service. The at-
tainment of a rank on the captains' list was always a
great object of ambition in the navy, and if they re-
moved that they would take away one great
incentive to professional advancement. But there
were ways and modes of reducing the cap-
tains' list without doing so much injustice to
the service. An option might be given to captains of
retiring if they wished it. Now, that might be a little
more expensive, but it would clear the list to the extent
required. During the period of the war the average
time for remaining on the captains' list was seventeen
or eighteen years; whereas an admiral made nowa-
days was generally thirty-six years a captain before he
got his flag. He would strongly urge upon the Lords
of the Admiralty the expediency of reconsidering the
arrangements they were now making, with the view of
rendering them more just and conclusive. There were
services, which might be of as much benefit to the
country as any other, in which a naval officer might be
engaged—such, for instance, as the service of the Cus-
toms, or the civil service of the Admiralty ; yet the
length of time a man might be so employed was never
taken into calculation at all. He had been glad to hear
from the Right Hon. Gentleman that in case of war
those who had been placed on the retired list could be
again put on the active list, if they wished it. On the
whole, however, he thought the present plan would be
better to be reconsidered, and it might then be made
less unjust, and more satisfactory to a large class of de-
serving officers.
Sir F. T. BARING said the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. S. Herbert) admitted that the Admiralty
had undertaken to grapple with an evil of immense ex-
tent when it proposed dealing with the existing navy
list. When he (air F. T. Baring) laid on the table a
plan for the reduction of that list, he was fully prepared
for a general admission as to the extent of the evils
which existed—he know ho should have a great many
compliments as to the good intentions of the Admiralty,
but at the same time was prepared for a general disin-
clination to do anything at all in the matter.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) Ho was told by some Hon. Mem-
bers to reconsider the plan ho proposed, yet they had
suggested nothing practical in return. That plan had
nut been brought forward without due consideration.
He had last year refused to introduce it until all its pro-
visions could be fully discussed and considered. He was
not prepared to adopt the suggestions which had been
made, and he could moreover inform the Committee
that all the objections urged to the plan of the Admi-
ralty had been before heard and weighed. He could
say that if they intended to do anything effective
in that matter, it was impostible to do anything with-
out dealing with officers high in the service on the
same principle as they dealt with the commanders
and lieutenants.—(Hear.) He thought if any one had a
right to complain of the carrying out of the details of
the proposed plan it was the commanders and those low
in rank; but they heard nothing from those, %bite the
admirals and captains were pronounced to be a most ill-
used set of individuals. If they took up a principle
they should act upon it equally. last them reduce their
navy list generally, then, to something commensurate
with the wants of the service,—(hear, hear.) It was on
that class of eßicers, the commanders, that a grievance
really might be said to press, for they often asked for
service and employment and could not get it; yet no one
objected to placing them, after a certain number of years'
service, on half pay, When, however, they began to
touch the higher classes of the officers in the service,
they at once were told of the hardship they inflicted,
and every sort of objection was made to the plan. He
was not prepared to deal with the lower class of officer:4
in a manner different from that on which he dealt with
the higher; and that was his firm determination. They
could not make a reduction in any class without causing
some inconvenience, loss, or annoyance to some individu-
als. Even in the civil service such could not be effected
without some loss to some one. Now, that was not the
case in what it was proposed to do with respect to
retired admirals, who had, comparatively speaking, no
injustice at all done to them. Ile did not wish to refer
to individual cases on occasions like that; but as allu-
sions had been made to parties, he would briefly answer
them. What were the real facts of the case of Admiral
Watts? He was a most gallant officer; but though he
had been 34 years a captain he had never served.
Sir DE LACY EVANS—That was not the question.
He complained that they had never employed him, yet
afterwards stated he had not served.
Sir F. T. BARING would ask did the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member think the Admiralty ought to have sent
that Gallant Officer to a command in preference to other
officers ? In that case he maintained that there was no
practical grievance. The public now had some light
thrown upon these matters.—(Hear, hear.) The great
extent of the navy list was an acknowledged evil, and if
many Hon. and Gallant Officers were put upon halapay
they had no real grievance to complain af.—(Hear, hear.)
There was another case, that of air G. Wastplaall, Who
had been 30 years on the captains' list, yet had oLly
served three years afloat.
Sir DE LACY EVANS—He had been three years
commander of a 50-gun ship, and after that had served
under Sir G. Cockburn; yet he, too, could net get em-
ployment.
Sir F. T. BARING would ask Whether the non and
Gallant Member meant to say: that Sir G. Cockb Unwilling to give a ship to Sir G. Westphal), I urn
u:as
a applied
Officer
to for it? lie certainly thought the Gallant
were anxious for
would have obtained
employmente if he
it, and therefore he justified in s,lating that an a
be cad not swish to
very great grievance. Ile confessed
put forward personal cases in that diseussion, but when
they were quoted it became necessary' for him to allude
somewhat to them. It Was
vtehry Plain, however, that
those officers who were real! were not those who cum e most hardly dealt with
Honourable Gentleman
eopppoll.inteedatshkeedill°h6irm. The Right
with regard to the maim a question
manner in which he proposed to deal
with the lower class of officers. Now the Right Hon.
jectGentleman ought to haveh some experience on that sub-
. Yet he had not number of There wore a large
comdmanderss,owwhnom, umehu.ch advanced in years,
had teen a goo deal of service; arid his (Sir F. a'.
object was to
Barin ' •
get a certain number of those
promoted, and then allow them to retire with
the little additional prey of the higher rank, and
with SUCK a mark of the approbation of the Admi-
ralty of their good service as cold not fail to be satis-
factory to them. In the discharge of his cfficial func-
tions at the Admiralty he centested he had often found
his feelings opposed to his sense of duty; for a necessity
might sometimes exist of appointing a younger man,

who would be fitter for the service, over the head of an
older one who would be better entitled from seniority
and longer service. There had been some difficulty in
filling the retired list of 200; but he proposed it should
continue at that number only until the captains' active
list clime dorm to the proposed limit, and no longer.
That, he thought, was only fear—(hear. hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman oppesite though* the Lumber Or.,
admirals was too large. Now, the exact number of
that class he had not; defined, end was not so easily
fixed. With regard to the captains, however, and the
commanders and lieutenants, the Right Hon. Gentleman
had named a certeia limit. That limit, however, be,
did not think sufficiently strong for the requirements of
the service. The Right Hon. Gentleman had likewise
said that the present arrangement was to be con-
sidered final and conclusive. Now, he was by n,.
e
mF ans sure that it was so. He thought that if any sue
sequent Admiralty considered the proposed lists larger
then were required, it was at perfect liberty to reduce
them, and it would be its duty to propose that they
should be confined to the wants of the, service.—(3",r'
hear.) Nothieg, however, could be more injurious
.10_
the real interests of the navy, and the fficiency of tr.e
service, than to have an overgrown navy list, which
would prevent all fair and legitimate promotion. ,se.
Mr. MACGREGOR admitted that was a "Ile dred
cult subject; but at the same time it should be con-es
that an admirals' list was a thing to astonish the world,
and a matt r which called for some correction. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had done himself great creditn
i
attempting to reduce that enormous list; but, in
addi-
tion to that attempt, the public should have somegua-
rentee that that list would never increase more in future.
There were altogether 3,504 officers on what was cab",
the active list; but he contended that a vast number of
them had no right to be considered members of such
...a
list. What was the course pursued in France? 14
France they had only two admirals, ten vice-admirals,
and twenty rear-admirals;
themaking in all thirty admiral,
All the other officers of same rank were penstot.ircir
off, and were never again to be employed. A similar
arrangement was adopted in France with respect to other
officers; and the same system was followed in Holland,
Sweden, and the United States. The only country °_
cept England in which there was a large list of officers
without any service was Russia. There were 73 adrese
rals on the Russian list; but three-fourths of them were
persons who had never gone to sea. He readily _
ac-
knowledged, however, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
the present First Lord of the Admiralty bad done much
to insure economy in our naval expenditure. Since the
Right Hon. Gentleman had come into t ffice he had re,
educed that expenditure by not less than 2,750,000/. Bub
it appeared to him (Mr. Macgregor) that economy might
still be carried to a much greater extent in our naval_
system, and more especially gin our dockyards and our
shipbuilding.
Mr. CORRY said that on the whole he should prefer
the proposal of the Right HOD. Baronet the First Lot.d'
of the Admiralty to that of the Hon. Member for Moll"
trose. He believed that the rule of requiring that 8 per:
son should have served six years as a captain before be'
could be made an admiral, would be productive of con'
sidereal() advantage to the public, and would ensure
greater efficieecy in the service. It was true that .
might operate with apparent severity in the case ti
officers who might have served a few
months less til.e.n
six years; but it was absolutely necessary to draw tnu
line somewhere, and cases of apparent harshness to in"
dividaals would always be inevitable if any rule of the
kind was adopted. lie wished to know to what precast'
extent the Right lion. Baronet
proposed to reduce thoflag-officers, flig-officere, stud how he meant
to carry out his Vier"
upon that subject?
Sir F. BARING said that he proposed to reduce tha
flag-officers to eineteenine, and to place the others
the reti:Td list. But if the Committee should not adop
that proposal, they wou'd have to consider the plan of,
his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, to which he confessed that he entertained considerable objection..
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the Right Hon. Gentb3-
men bad stated that he wished to extend the same prin'
ciple to captains which he would adopt in the case ,of
ceininanclers and lieutenants; but the fact was that, frcoi
the different nature of the two cases, it would he impos'
sible rigidly to carry our the principle.
Alter a few weres from Colonel aIBTHORP,
Mr. HUME said that he had no wish to oppose the
Government for mere Opposition sake. He believed del
had at pre erit entered on the right course, and he on If
complained that they did not strictly adhere to it. 119
observed that the system of promotion by brevets was to
brought to a close, and ha very much rejoiced at Out,
for he believed that the ssstetn in question had been
productive of the greatest abuses. The Committee o'
18'13 had recommended that that system should cent a;
cud yet, in the year 1837, there had been 193 effice re
promoted by brevet in the navy; in the year 1838 the re
had been 170 eflieers promoted; in the year 1841 the re
bad been 293 officers promoted; and in the year 18 46
there had been 246 brevet promotions. The fte/
was, that the system of promotion which had hitberto
been adopted in the navy was only calculated t°
ensure the advantage of individuals at the .ex:
pense of the public. It appeared that out of 1.68'
captains, in the year 1840, not less than 313 had no vet
seen any service since they had been promoted to tl tat
rank; and out of 807 commanders, not less than 4192
had not served since their promotion to the post. Be
was aware that the present Board of Admiralty was I tot
to be blamed more than its predecessors for the abu sea
of the system. Under all boards aristocratic influet ,eg
prevailed, and promotion was given in consequence
o'e
powerful family connexion. Men wero raised to h. igh
posts in the navy while their services were in no v taf
required by the country, and then they were placed on
half-pay, and became a burden on the public. In his
opinion they ought to have a fixed number of officers in
the navy, as they had in the army; tied then a ch( ,ek
would be put on the unlimited abuse of patronage in
that branch of the public service. The Board of Ads Di'
ralty at present possessed arbitrary powers of promote 00
in tho navy, such as neither her Majesty nor any oth ter
authorities possessed in the army. Lie should furti ter
I say that he could see no necessity for our maintaining ee
many as 100 admirals, and he believed that it would of sly
be fair and reasonable to reduce their number to 50. .11; the height of the war wo had had only 30 admirals, at la
not more than 14 of them had been employed.
I Admiral GORDON said he was aware of the gre at
.difficulty of devising any means of dealing with th
at
question which might not appear to operate severe If
against some individuals. But it should be remembered
that it was the paramount duty of the Admiralty to ase cure the services of efficient officers. He knew of ;ao
better means of affecting that object then the adopth
of an extensive system of retirement in time of peat 8. Without any wish to say anything that could be offen-
sive to individuals, he believed it might with perfect
truth be stated that not many of our admirals at press)] at
possessed that activity of body and of mind which bad so
eminently characterised our admirals throughout Ole
war. He should be glad to find the plan of the Adm.i-
rutty, as explained to them that evening by the Rig' it
honourable Baronet, come into operation at an earlie r
period than the Right Hon. Gentleman had proposes l.
The plan would come into effect so gradually that ;it
would not afford an early opportunity of bringin g
forward young and efficient officers. Ho though t
that some modeication might reasonably be made ii the proposal, under which a service of six years woulal
he required on the part of captains before they could
be promoted to the rank of admirals. In his opinion
the time ought to be reduced, or a service of a com-
matader ought to some extent to be allowed to count
in tho matter. But, in any case, he thought that the
sr rvice required should be an active, and not a merely
nominal one.
Sic DE LACY EVANS said he believed there was,
a general determination on the part of the Committee,
to aid the Admiralty in carrying out their views.
upon that subj,et ; but there was also a general wish
that the compulsory provision should not be carried into
effect.

Sir G. PECHELL said he had been challenged to
but he had suggested one in 1848.
call the attention of the First Lord to
He suggest
n,isheadptloan „
the mode in which freight money was now disposed
of. At present very few had the benefit of it. Thre
advantage was ceefined to a few aristocratic fa-
milies. In one instance a sum of 11%0004 had been
divided between the captains of seven ships. He had,
year after year, pressed this subject on the attention
of the House.
Mr. COBDEN said it was generally understood, whets
a Comm
ect itteo w
toasre appointed cn the navy estimates, that
thewas duce expenditure, and not to iecreaw
it; and he had heard no good reason why the recom-
mendation of that Committee should not be acted on. He•
admitted that very great difficulty would be found in
dealing with the claims of officers long in the service,
who had catered it expecting certain advantages from this
system then in existence. The most ardent reformex
would find it
extremely difficult to deal with this clue'
with any view of immediate saving. Ho merely tea
to stipulate that the public should have all future adeatt.
trig© to be derived from a .
minute of council of 1830 reco change of system. Themmended that the should.
diminish the number of admirals, coupled with a y recom-
mendation to diminish the number of cadets. If they
neglected to act upon this they would find themselves 1
years hence in the same predicament as now. The Com
ruittee recommended that in fixing the number of cadets
a margin should be left for the exercise of discre-
tion, for the (act of an invariable rule would lei)
to snake the number too great for the wants o f
the service in one yi ar, and too small in another.;
One hundred was the number suggested by Lora.
Auckland, and this appeared to the Committee to,
be the maximum number which ought to be allowed
in a time of peace. If there was not employment for
them, the same rule should be applied to the officers
of the navy which was applied to the civil service;
and if they were not wanted, the public would not pay
them in any shape. Therefore the Admiralty would do
justice to the public and justice to the young men them-
selves who had entered the service injudiciously by re.,
diming the number much below that amount.
Sir F. T. BARING said it was quite true that 100 west
stated t be sufficient.
Mr. CO BDEN-100 was the nrsmimure.
Sir F. 'l'. BARING said when he came into Chide, het
found that Lord Auckland had fixed the number at 100'
in accordance with his opinion. His (Sir F. T. Baring's)
experience during two years led him to believe that they
would not want that number; in fact, the Admiralty had
already diminished it. After persons bed entered the
service any stop to promotion must interfere with their
expectations when they joined the s
therefore, concurred in the oi ervice; and he,
nion that the restraint
should be exercised in p
preveetieg too teeny from
entering the service, which would ir.flict hardship on
no one.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE protested tigaieet a rigid ad-
hervnce to an ord, r in council, white' would operate is,
jUriOUSIY on arcertain eless of officers; and hoped that
Government would reconsider their determination in this
respect.

tiir F. T. I%A.RING could not consent to alter the
plan of the Government.

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