The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-03 00:00:00

T TUE-

which? he did not think the English Mernb-rs—if he
might be pardoned Vie expression—(A laugh)—cared
much ab !tit utoierstanling.—(A laugh.) '
f: rent statements they had heard, he was net sore that
the Solicitor Geheral would not get up and tell them
that th-, aurndinent had quite smother meaning than
that which had neti given to it. As he did not Wish to
obstruct the progress of the rn-asure, be should cith-
draw hi, in.tion for r-porcing prneress.
Mr. T. NI‘C.ULLAGiI said,- wh,n they were dissuss-
' ing a law applicable to Efigl-and, and the. principle of.
Which might be extended to Ireland. it behoved them to
know exactly the posi,ion in whieh • they sto He
would ask the Chairman whether the amendment was ap-
plicable to the United Kingdom or England only ?
The CHAIRMAN read the terms of the amendment,
by which it appeared to be applicable to Fagland only.
Mr. T. MCULLAGR said he wanted to know, when
the Hon. and Learned Member for Mid'nurst proposed.
passing a law affecting the kingdom of England, whe-
ther he meant to carry out that enactment iu that king
dom alone? If ao, he would have to add many other
clauses to the Bill.
Colonel RAWDON asked the Chain:inn whether a
clause which was without he scope of the title of a Bill
could be introduced in Committee ?
The CHAIRMAN,was understood to say that the
present clause was within its scope.
Mr. W A.LPOLE said there were two important
questions to be considered in the present legislation.
What they had to meet was an encroachment upon the
prerogative of the Crown in one place, and the assump-
tion of certain titles in other parrs of the kingdom Tne
sole object which he had iu view was to meet those
evils; and he did not intend it should extend beyond
the specific off noes it was calculated to meet—namely,
the constitution of a R .man Catholic hierarchy in
Eagland. Having read his clauses, the Hon. and L. arned
Member conclud.d by observing that his preamble, his
declaratory and his enacting clauses, were all trained so
as to follow each other harmoniously.
Mr. 111`CULLAGEI still complained that they were
legislating without understanding or knowing what they
were doing.
The AT f ORNEY-GENERAL said, after his Hon.
and Learned Friend had said he would withdraw his
first and last clause, they could not know what he
meant ; and he thought his Hon. Friend was, involving
them in greater difficulties and inconsistencies every step
he took.—(Gear, hear.)
Sir F. THESIGER thought the .difficulties of the
judges in Ireland, if any case came before them for
decision, would be increased by his Hon.: and Learned
Friend's proposition..
Mr. TRELA WNY said he thought the law should be
the same in both countries on that subject, as well as
every other.
Mr. WALPOLE repeated what he had bef ire said,

,with respect to the t.vo points to which he confined his
clauie—the encroachment on the prerogative of the
Crown, and the asbumption of cccleamtical titles in an)
part of the kingdom.

LordJ.RUS:iELL did not think the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had got rid of the objections made to bii
clause. What the lion. Member did propose about
making en assumption of a title an off nce here, did
make a difference between En4land and Ireland. Far
his own part, his own objection to the clause was of a
general nature. It was not framed in accordance, with
the"spirit of the Act of 1829, beyond which the Govern-
ment did not wish to go. tie would therefore oppose
that clause, and every amendment of a similar kind which
went to extend the penalties under the Aet.
After a few words in explanation from Mr. WAL-
POLE,

Mr. NAPIER suggested to his Hon. and Learned
Friend not to press bis amendment; as if ever there Was
a time when it was necessary to have uniformity f prac-
tice, it was when they were engaged in legislating on a
great constitutional principle.
Mr. STANFORD said the /lon. and Learned Member

for Midharst had conducted himself all through that
discussion with so much moderation, discretion, and

judgment, that though differing in religious belit-f from
many Hon. Members around him, he had never heard
one of them impugn that Hon. and Learned Member's
character or conduct.—(Hear, hear) He confessed he
had not been able distinctly to understand some of the
paints involved in the particular questions under discus-
sion; and he thought the Hon. Member for Athlone ant
other Hon. Members who thought with him had a per-
fect right to demand a full explanation from the aivern-
ment of that system which they proposed carrying out
for the satisfaction of the Protestant people of this coun-
try. He was opposed to Popish ascendancy, but had a
kindly feeling towards his Roman Catholic fellow-sub-
jects,.and he could say that they never should have an
ascend .ncy of any kind, Pepisti or Protestant, in this
country, which was not f eluded on sound reason and ar-
gument. He had listened with great attention to all the
speeches which had been delivered in the course
of that debate particularly those of the law
officers of the Crown. All parties had agreed
that there was no- intention in pursuing that
legislation to interfere with the free action of
the religion of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects;
and he did sincerely believe that there was not an Hon.
Member on his side of the House who would not join in
that sentimtnt. But in legislating upon that suttjci
they had many and serious matters to take into consi-
deration. They h)d to consider, as he' had done, the
statute of Richard 11., and the 13th of Elizabeth, and
10th Geo. IV., cap. 27. And having given all these
various Acts full coosideretiuneabey should weigh how
far the present position of the Roman Catholics was (e-
-rected by the existing law, and how far it might be af-
t ected by the proposed Bill.—(Rear, hear.) By the 9th
and 10.12 Vice, these missives of the Pope were
and we did not therefore require auy new legislation to
declare that they were so. What had offended this
country was the assumption of titles and the parcelling
out of the kingdom into dioceses; and the Master of the
Rolls had stated that that could not be prevented excel),
by recurring to obsolete statutes; so that there appeared
to be no passibility of wetting this case except by the
enactment of a fresh law.—(Hear, hear.) If Hon.
Member s were prepared to follow the honest and open
line of policy which the country expected from them.
then they would adopt the clause proposed by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Midhursi ( Ur. Walpole). But
he could assure them that no sinistrous course—however
dexterous it might be—(Laughter)—would give satisfac-
tion to the public. He (Mr. Stanford) should support
amendmithe

Sir R. H. INGLIS objected to the amendment, as
creating a distinction between England and Ireland, and
recommended Mr. Walpole to withdraw it, and reserve
to himself the power of framing some other clause not
open to the exception which was applicable to this.
Mr. W ALPOLE said that, feeling his Hon. Friend:.
on that side of the !louse did not wish him to press the
clause, he was unwilling to do that which would be con

trary to their better juifgment. He hoped, however, if
he did not put the Committee to the trouble of a division,
that neither the Government nor the country would find
—as he feared they might hereafter find—another brief
coming into the country, and even themselves placed iu
a more awkward position than they were then now.
Mr. HORSIMAN commended the consistency of the
course which had been pursued by Mr. Walpole through-
out. His Hon. and Learned Friend's clause had been
found fault with because it drew a distinction between
England and Ireland. But tbat which was urged as an
objection to the amendment constituted in his (Mr.
foreman's) eyes its chief recommendation; for nothing
could be more absurd, in legislating upon a question o►
this kind, than to say that the same principle should
apply to both count:les, though the one were Protestant
and the other Roman Catholic—or that because the Pope
bad done something which was insulting to England,
therefore we were determined to put an end to the Papal
hierarchy in Ireland. He should give his hearty sup-
port to the amendment.

- After a few words from Mr. SCULLY, in opposition
to the amendment, Mr. Walpole'a clause was, by leave,
withdrawn.

Mr. REYNOLDS said, that two hours and a half had
been spent in discussing an amendment which had been
at last withdrawn, and he wished to know if all the
amendments standing in the name of the Honourable
and Learned Member for Midhurat were also to be
withdrawn?

Mr. WALPOLE had already stated the course he
meant to take. He would support the amendment of his
Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for. Abingdon
(Sir F. Thesiger) relative to the prosecuting power, and
he would pr. as his own amendnwnts on the preamble.
After a few words from Mr. KEOGH,
Mr. M'CULLAGH moved tae amendment of which
he bad given notice, after the words 'by law,' to in.
sert these words, ' or who shall have been recognised

as Catholic archbishop of any province, Roman
Catholic bishop of any diocese. or Roman Catholic dean
of any deanery, by any of her Majesty's superior courts
of law or equity.' " The documents to which
he would refer were either originals or at-
tested copies. The first was a document of
the Court of Chancery in Ireland' at the time
when Sir Edward Sugden was Chancellor. After the
B quests Act was passsd the Rowan Catholic inhabitants
of Drogheda, considering that certain property which
bad hitherto been applied to Protestant purposes alone
.hy the corporation, should be also applied for the benefit
of Roman Catholics, brought the case before the Court
of Chancery, and Sir Edward Sugden directed an in-
quiry by the Ma.ter as to who should be the proper
trustees, and the Master found that the property was
applicable, without regard to sect, to the children of the
poor of the locality, and in his report the Master num- d
eight Protestant and eight Roman Catholic trustees of
the common fund, the first ..f the Roman Catholic trus-
,r.-. Proposed by Master Henn. being, in the words of
the report, " the Most Rev. Dr. Crolly, Roman Catholic
Archbishop of
Armagh, and Primate of Ireland." To,
that report excentitins were taken; and in the order
made by Chancellor
n,H Sugden, on the, hearing of them,
he affirmed
mastto show the futilit ent.'a report, and awarded cost.,
yof the objections raised. Ou the
death of Dr. Crolly Furoctedings were again taken to
have the vacancy
report be made use of still more
Master Henn's second th"
trustees filled up; and in
remarkable words, in
wy.ogptip the vacancy. with the
name of " the Most
Catholic Archbishop of Armagh,ul Cullen'
Rionitb4encolsrse of the present
D.D., Roman
n
. and Primate of ail Ire-
hid beer 4 sent from Maly
or
Lind" It had been stated
&bite that the present
thein violation of the
Catholic Bishop of
law of the hnd and the usage
But of the four last Archbishops of Ar Irish Church.
Armagh,
was elected by the clergy—the other threw were onlyone
trans-
ferred by the Pope from other places: Dr. Curtis
Spain, Dr. Cullen from Italy, and
Dr.
Kellytranslated from
from another see iu Ireland. There was another ease.
A gentleman named Burke left a large sum for achari-
table purposes to the Roman Catholic Archbishop of
'foam, Dr. ;PHale, and a question havit g arisen be-
tweeo the legate,- and the inheritors cf the estate, a bill
Wai fi:ed in Chancery, and letters of adrninistrati, n
were sought in the Prerogative Court by Dr. M'Hale;
the letters of administration were granted in the name 1
of the Pros4otaut Primate, the nominal head of that j