The Sun.
London, England, 1834-03-01 00:00:00

ROUSE OF COMMONS, FEB. 28.

The SPRAYER took the chair at a quarter past five.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the
shepherds at Romney Marsh, for the repeal of the house

duty.
Lord ALTHORP was in bopes that a prospect of
relief might be extended on that subject.
Mr. LYALL moved for a return of the quantity of leaf
tobacco used in England and Ireland.
Mr. HYATT moved for a return of the quantity of
sheep and iamb!: wool imported into the united kingdom.
Mr. P. THOMSON objected to the motion, inasmuch
as that return would come before the house in the ordinary

course of business.
Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY begged to ask the noble
lord (Althorp) whether it was the intention of his Ma-
jesty's government to proceed with the law of patents, of
which notice bad been given ?
Lord ALTHORP Said that it was not. _ . .

Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a return of the criminal
calendar for the county of Meath Spring Assizes, 1834,
distinguishing the number of prisoners and those on
bail, with the offences of which they stand charged.
Mr. FINN moved for returns from the Court of Chan-
cery of the various causes, re-hearings, pleas, demurrers,
and exceptions, which have been contested, and the
bankrupt petitions which have been contested and heard
and decided, by the Chancellor in each year during the
last three years, with the number of days the Chancellor
sat, and the number of hours each day. Also similar
returns from the Courts of Equity, King's Bench, and
Common Pleas.—The returns were ordered.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY begged to ask when the report
of the ecclesiastical commissioners would be laid before
the house ?
Lord ALTHORP assured the hon. member that
would be produced as speedily as possible.
In answer to a question from Mr. GOULBURN—
Mr. LITTLETON said that the question respecting
tithes was still before the council.
Mr. SHELL gave notice of his intention to move for
copies of treaties and communications between this go
vernment and the Russian government respecting our com-
mercial relations.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

A message from the Lords was communicated, re-
questing a copy of the report of the committee appointed
by this house in the session of 1825, on the expenditure
of the country, and of the minutes of evidence taken
before it..—Agreed to.
Mr. COBBETT, in allusion to the proposed alteration
in the stamp duties last session, which terminated with-
out that alteration being carried into effect, begged to ask
if it was the intention of his Majesty's 'Ministers to intro-
duce any measure of that description in the present
session?
Mr. SPRING RICE said that it was true those alter-
ations had not been carried into effect, but the subject had
not been forgotten. A bill was in the course of prepara-
tion, and he hoped that in a short time it would be brought
forward.
Mr. BARING wished to know from the noble lord
whether it was the noble lord's intention to bring before
!Ile house the subject of the commutation of tithes in
England this session, and more especially if be meant to
:disclose the nature of the measure before it was introduced ?
Lord ALTHORP had thought it right to bring forward
all the estimates in the first instance, and those he appre-
hended would occupy every order day until Easter. He
had no objection, however, to open the plan on some day
before the nolideys, though he should not then be able to
proceed with the bill.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said that a person of the name of
Dundas bad been removed from the police in Ireland,
who, be had understood, had subsequently been ap-
pointed to the office of stipendiary magistrate in the
colonies. If the right lion. secretary for the colonies
was not now prepared to answer the question whether
that was so or not, he desired it to be understood that be
would ask the question formally on Monday.
Mr. STANLEY had no objection to consider the ques-
tion as asked now, and to which he had a very short an•
ewer. He had no power whatever to appoint any Ma-
gistrate in the colonies; nor did be believe that any
person had been appointed to the office of a stipendiary
magistrate in the colonies who had ever been connected
with the police either in England or Ireland. If the hon.
and learned gentleman had taken the trouble to have in-
formed him privately of what he had wished to know on
this subject, he bad no doubt he should have been able
to have given him a satisfactory answer, and which, per-
baps, would have been the most convenient way.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the right hon. gentleman
oppes;te whether be had completed the arrangement which
be proposed last year, of having all the acts of parliament
ready to be isrinted, and immediately after their passing, to
be obtained by Any person iu a cheap form.
Mr. SPRING jJCE was understood to say he had
not yet been able to complete the arrane'einent, which I.e
considered to be very desirable, and the great object of
which was to have the acts obtained by individuals at as
small an expense as possible.
On the motion that the Louse do go into a committee
of supply,
Mr. F. O'CONNOR rose to speak to the motion of
which he had given notice, but was interrupted by the
Speaker until the order of the day should be read. On the
order of the day being read, the hon. member did not rise
again, and the Speaker left the chair, which was taken by
Mr. BERNAL, the house resolving itself into a cotninittee.
SUGAR DUTIES.
Lord ALTHORP, being called, said that he had already
given notice of a committee of ways and means, and lie
now proposed that the amount of sugar duties for the next
year should be the same as that for the past. It was not
his intention to make any alteration—(A greatnoise in
the house, and cries of " Order.") He did not think that,
in the circumstances of the country, it was either desirabh
iction of sugar duties, taking into
taxation, or that at the present
to make any alteration in the
duties were raised. lie did
.nt time it would be prudent to
inter duties. lie would, therefore,
effect that they should be con-
tinued up to the stivi6f July.—(Hear, hear.) There
were two grounds upon which he thought it ad-
visable that the duties should be continued to the Sri
of July rather than to the Sib of April. It was, as he
had formerly stated, of great public convenience, that
she fiaanc:ial year should be so altered, and he thought

desirable that they should continue to.ltroceed in the same
course. If any objections should be made to his Rroposi•
lion, he would reserve to himself the right of making any
observations upon them which he thought fit. He would
conclude by moving that the several duties upon sugar and
molasses, should be continued without any alteration.
Mr. CUTLER FERGUSSON slid be expected that,
after 20,000,0001. bad been voted for the relief of the
planters of the West Indies, and the West India interest
being in that manner relieved, it would have been consi-
dered, at least justice would have been done, by doing
something for the East India Proprietors. The sugars of
the West Indies were subjected to a duty quiteCpropor-
tionate to that which the East Indies were cted to.
He considered that after the country had made such
sacrifices for the relief of the West India interest, it
was full time that the house should consider in what
situation the East India proprietors were. They had a
right to expect that the house would consider their interests,
and be had expected that a petition would have been presented
to-day from a great body of men, which would show the
injurious effects of a great and enormous duty being con-
tinued on East India sugar. He dill not mean to make

any specific proposition at present, but he knew the time
was fast approaching when the house would be bound
to look to the intereqs of the East Indies. By the bill

that bad been passed last session they had been placed
on a very great inequality, not only with respect to the
duties on sugars, but also on the importation
of all their produce, the consequence of which
had been, that hundreds of thousands of persons had
been driven out of employment, and bad almost perished
from want.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the noble
lord would give the house some assurance, seeing the evil
was so mischievous, that something would be done for the

East Indies as well as for the West.
Mr. EWART conceived that there was no greater
evil done to a country than there bad been done to limn.
dostan, by the uniform despotism exercised over several
branches of trade which formerly flourished there,
but were now extirpated.—(Hear.) The cotton trade
was completely annihilated. Take the scale of unequal
taxation on the produce of the western and eastern colo-
nies. Tobacco h.d an impost of 245. per hundred in the
West Indies, and 325. in the East ; rum 9s.' a gallon in
the former, 15s. in the latter ; sugar 6d. per pound
in the former, and 9d. per pound in the latter. The
same scale prevailed on all other excisable articles,
and in the same unequal manner. There could he nts,
pretext for continuing the West India monopoly. The ex.
tinction of slavery was deemed necessary, and the doing away
with another species of injustice was equally imperative.
In consequence of the question being brought forward so
early it bad prevented many petitions being presented,
and as his bon friend, the member for Glasgow, was
absent, whose valuable support he was promised, he would

not proceed further.
Mr. WARBURTON regretted the coune taken
by the Government on this occasion—(Hear, hear)—
not only on account of the interests of India, but also
the interests of that country, because he thought that
after the report made on the subject by a very distin-
guished chymist, Dr. Ure, no doubt could be entertained
on the point that the West India interest received on the
export of refined sugar—the profit of five shillings
upon every cwt., and if they would calculate the amount
exported, the bonus would amount to several hundred
thousands per annum ? This was among the fair sub•
jects of discussion when the revison of taxation and
the general taxation of the country came before the
house, and it was one of these taxes which pressed
most severely upon the industry of this country. He
thought the present one of the best opportunities to
review the whole subject of the bonus or bounty to be
paid on the exportation of sugar, especially when it was
ccnsidered that no less a sum than twenty tnillions had
been given as a bonus to the West India proprietors. He
wished to know from the President of the Board

.............
what steps bad been taken, or were likely to be taken, in
consequence of the report of Dr. Ure, from which it was
to be collected that there was either a bounty of 3s. 6d.

or ss. paid nn every cwt. of refined sugar in bond.
Mr. HUTT made a few observations, that were inaudi-
ble in the gallery.
Mr. P. THOMSON stated, in answer to the member
of Bridport, that the papers relitive to the experiments of
Dr. Ure had been laid before the House; with respect

to the bounty referred to by the hon. member, though he
could not go the extent he had stated, yet he believed that
the bounty paid on West India sugar at least amounted to
about 4s. per cwt.
Mr. R. TODD regretted that the noble lord had not
hought fit to equalise the duty upon East and West India
produce. He, and many tithe's, would be greatly disap
'ointed by the noble lord's statement. He hoped, however,
,at the noble lord would give some explanation of the
urse which he had adopted.
Lord ALTHORP said that this was a question of the
greatest importance, not only to the East Indies, but to
this country also. It was one that deserved the most
serious consideration of the house.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) The only ground upon which he proposed
that these duties should be continued without alteration,
was, as he hid stated, merely a question of time. He
thought, considering the present state of the West India
colonies, that this was the most expedient course which
the house could adopt, as a different course might en-
danger the success of the measure passed last session
with respect to' West India property.—(Hear, hear.)
That was the ground on which he proceeded. With re-
spect to the export of West India sugar the same rule ap-
plied. It had been considered by Government, and be
hoped it would be thought by the house, to be inexpedient
at the present time to make any alteration which might
increase any pressure that existed until after the measure
passed last year had had a fair trial.
Sir R. PEEL hoped that the hon. gentleman would
still persevere in his intention of submitting this impor-
tant subject to the grave consideration of the house. He
hoped that he would bring forward the subject,
so as to have the house clearly to understand
the situation of parties interested in this subject, because,
as far as he could comprehend it, an act of greater injustice
towards the natives of India could not be established.
--(Hear, hear.) Although an attempt to establish ind.s-
criminate duties between two countries might not
by the one he considered as an open declaration
of war, yet it would not fail to make that country regard
the attempt as one of the grossest acts of hostility ; and the
house might depend upon it there was that growing
intelligence in the natives of India that cou'd not fail
to make them feel most keenly on the point.—(Hear.)
Above all, it ought clearly to be understood whether this
was to be considered a permanent thing or not. Those
who invested capital in West India produce had a right
to know whether it was to be permanent or only tempo-
rary.
Lord ALTHORP concurred in most of the observations
of the right hon. gentleman, but under the circumstances
he hoped the house would not sanction the adoption of
the amendment.
Colonel DAVIES condemned the restrictions which
had been put upon West India produce, and stated that
die propositions of the lion. member for Liserpool (Mr.
Ewart) (lid not affect the West India proprietors, but
went merely to benefit the sugar refiners, in England.
Mr. P. STEWART trusted the house would give time
for the act of last session to have a !air trial; it had begun
most successfully ; the grand difficulties, however, were to
come, and these could only be conquered by the house
allowing things to remain in their present state for a short
time. When these difficulties were surmounted, he should
be most ready to proceed to remedy toe measures of which
the East Indians complained. Any alteration at preent,
however, would only serve to embarrass all parties.
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON said that at any rate a
definite period should be named at which the East Indians
were to expect a removal of their grievances.
Mr. WHITMORE concurred with the last speaker,
and trusted that the time was not far distant when the
produce of the East Indian colonies should be admitted
on the same terms as the produce of the other colonies.
This would be as great a benefit to ourselves as to the
East Indians, and was as much a paint of good policy as
of justice. The duties on all foreign sugars were prohi•
bitory, and if we did not lower the duty on all our own
sugars, we should in all probability find the amount im-
ported considerably lessened, and the price greatly raised.
It was certain the country would nut accede to the grant
of 20 millions, made in the last session, to indemnify the
slave owners, if it were not believed that at the earliest
possible period, all restrictions would be removed. There
might be grounds for Government not taking up the mea-
sure this session, but Le hoped as soon as possible that mi-
-1 nisters would take it in hand.
Mr. STANLEY was happy to perceive that there was
a uniformity of opin:on amongst all the hon. members
who had addressed the house upon the subject before
them. All seemed to agree as to the necessity of adjusting
and assimilating the duties at no distant period.—
(Cheers.) There were two points which urg-d them-
selves upon the consideration of the house. The first
was the impolicy, if not the inexpediency, of affording pro-
tection to any one in particular of the colonies, to the dis-
advantage or injury of the others. And it would, in the
next place, be highly improper and inexpedient, in the
present state of things, consequent upon the alteration.-
made in the condition of the slave population of the West
Indies by the act of the last session, to make any further
experiments until the working of that measure had been

fairly tried. In compassing that measure, government had I
many difficulties to contend with. They had not only to bring
public opinion over to a measure involving a certain loss,
but they had to contend with strong prejudices, provide
against numerous, and, in some instances, perhaps, unfore-
seen dangers, and to wrestle with difficulties that, at first
sight, appeared insurmountable.—(Cheers.) But by the
liberality of Parliament adopting a course as wise as it was
prudent, the dangers and difficulties were overcome.—
(Hear.) The result had proved that the measure was
wise and prudent, even though accompanied with an ex-
pense of twenty millions. The success of the experiment
had fully justified it, and time had given assurance that
those fearful insurrections—those tremendous convulsions,
and dreadful disturbances which some had foreboded, and
which even the most sanguine could scarcely assure them-
selves would not oceur.—( Loud cheers.) The prospect
of success from the measure was daily augmenting, the
hopes growing more healthy, the fears diminishing, and
it would, at present, be highly impolitic to mar a measure
which had so happily begun.—( Hear, hear.) Any alte-
ration now would be exceedingly premature—it would be
but the letting loose of fresh elements of discord where
strife had but just subsided.—(Cheers.) His noble friend
had made the claim of time the ground of his objection.
He (Mr. S.) would make the same chains. In his offi-
cial capacity he disclaimed the intention of favouring any
one particular colony to the exclusion of others, but in
taking the subject of equalization under their consideration,
the house was bound to remember that the West Indies
were subject to restrictions from which the East were
free. Before proceeding with equalization, the West
Indies had a claim on the government to relax the
restrictions which pressed upon them, and assuredly,
previous to an attempt to equalize, it would be im-
prudent and unadvised in the big heat degree to neutralize
the attempt by any disturbing force. The house was further
bound to give to the West Indian interest full, fair, and
timely notice of the intention to equalize, that ptepa_
rations might be made accordingly. The intention would
be given by the discussion that evening. It would show
how far the doctrines of free trade grew with the growth

Of opinion—(Cheers)—that they were becoming strong
and general ; and the hint of the hon. baronet (the mem.
ber for Tamworth) would not fail of producing the salu-

tary and desired effect on the parties concerned in the
event. In the meantime he would pray the house not to

be premature on a question following, and, in some mea-
sure, id. ntified with a late proceeding, which ter its conduct
had been so difficult and delicate. Assuredly there was

ground to require time on such a subject. If the house
did not delay the entertaining a measure of equalization
until the rate of labour from that which was compulsory
to that which was free were adjusted, it was at least bound
to grant sufficient time to give those interested full notice.
—(Hear, hear.) They should allow time for the late
measure to settle down into its consequences, and not dis-
turb that settlement by the introduction of anything
which might have a counteracting force. It was in the ab-
stract highly proper that Government should place upon
an equal footing the rival productions of the several colo-
nies; but, under the circumstances which he had stated
and of which the house was already fully aware, it would
be exceedingly bard if they should proceed to do so in the
present year.—(Hear.) Nor should the Government be
asked for any pledge binding them to proceed in this mat-
ter at any definite period. It was sufficient that they ad-
mitted the principle—(Cheers)—and thence'orward it
would be their duty to watch events, take advantage of
circumstances, and make the best calculations for reducing
their theories into practice.—(Hear, bear.) But it
would be more wise not to carry the theory into practice
until they made sufficient provision that no obstacle would
lie in the way to impede its working. He trusted that
the house would pursue this line of action—that they
would proceed, not precipitately, but with steadiness
guided by caution, with justice aided by expediency, and
with a due regard to that liberal policy which so enligh-
tened and extensive an empire demanded.—(Cheers.)
Mr. A. BARING was of opinion that in the foreign
market the equalization would take place, as by that in a
great degree the price was regulated. He agreed that the
principle should not be hastily acted upon in the present
circumstances, but when they did proceed with it, the
main difficulty would be found in the different qualities
of the articles produced, that of the east being more
refined than the produce of the west. He entirely con-
curred in what had been urged with regard to the equali-
zation of the interest. It was true that the measure of '
last year had put an end to slavery in our own country ;
but if facts stated in the public papers were true, the
foreign slave trade was sill going on, with all its frightful
and revolting consequences.—(Hear.) The newspapers
were his authority, but the hon. baronet at the bead of
the Admiralty might, perhaps, say whether these state-
ments were well founded. One vessel was stated to have
on board from 400 to 500 human beings, and another,
of only 75 tons burden, had on board 250 slave children.
—(Hear.) These statements of the newspapers had been
corroborated by private information. It would be very
unfair that Spain and Portugal, both which countries
had been well paid for coming into our scheme of humane
policy, should be permitted to evade the engagements they
entered into, and carry on their horrid traffic to an extent
of which few were aware. Was it for this that valuable
colonies were h.zarded—that the same atrocities might go
on with even additional horrors of human sacrifice ? He
would not proceed further on the topic, but content him-
self by inquiring if government had received any informa-
tion on the subject ; and if so, what steps they had taken
in consequence, to enforce the engagements entered into
with other powers?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, having been asked the ques-
tion, felt great pleasure in assuring the house that this im-
portant matter had not been overlooked. He felt there
was reason to apprehend some truth in the statements, and
he felt bound to say, that in Cuba in particular this traffic
was on the increase. But directions had been forwarded
to the Admiral on the West India station to surround the
island and prevent any future traffic. In addition to this,
a steam vessel of great power had been also sent forward,
and would be found of great utility in effectually suppress-
ing the traffic. Arrangements to the same effect had been
made with the Brazilian government, which, acting in
concord with the Admiral on the West India station,
would operate with great effect. France, too, was not
forgetful of her engagements. The power of reciprocal
search had heed effectually acted on, and the trade which
used to be carried on under the flag of France was now
almost extinct. Such were the measures to which go-
vernment had already resorted—(Hear)—nor would they
relax in exertion not alone imposed by bonds of treaties,
but imperatively demanded at their hands by the claims of
humanity.
Doctor LUSHINGTON contended that the entire sup-
pression of the traffic in slaves could not be effected by any
efforts of the British government, inasmuch as the treaties
into which they had entered with the other States were
defective, and it was impossible to put an end to it by the
powers granted to this by foreign governments. As far as
regarded Africa, the right of search was only confined to
particular parts of the coasts, and the greatest abuses might
take place in those excepted. After the sacrifice made by
this country, she might be permitted to claim fuller
righis ; and it would not be too much to demand from
France a right and power of search in every part of th.
ocean. To those who knew how inhumanely the traffic was
carried on, no force of language would seem exaggerated in
describing it, or no words too strong to denounce. When this
subject was before tinder discussion, be was deemed by
the West Indians to be their bitterest enemy, but at pres-nt
he would prove himself their advocate. The general
principle involved in the inquiry was true; but just at
present, when the fate of the West Indies bung upon the
experiment, it would be of very dangerous application.
Not only would it jeopardise human life, but materially
interfere with the success of a measure, the consequence of
which was of the utmost importance. At this hour, and
at this crisis, the house ought to be very cautious not to
diminish or weaken any motive which might have a ten-
dency to give the new system full and fair effect.--
(Cheers.) Any new measure might make the late expe-
riment one fraught with danger to the future condition of
the slave population. How did they stand now ? Their
present condition was one calculated to excite to industry,
and on that industry depended the welfare of the colonies
and tbeir inhabitants. Indeed, more than this depended
on the successful issue of the experiment. It was to stano
as an example to all other nations, and by the success or
failure of this effort would they be influenced.—(Cheers.)
Until this crisis was past—until the prosperity of the West
Indies was established on a sure and firm bisis—no other ex
periments should be made, which might hazard the present
safety and future regeneration of these great colonies.
Mr. GLADSTONE was opposed to taking any hasty
steps. He was nearly connected with one of the islands
from which very alarming accounts had been recently re-
ceived. They stated that the negrues hail arisen, bad
beaten the whites, refused to work, and had cut the throat
of a manager's horse.
Mr. LYALL observed upon the conditions on which
the manufactures of India were received in this country,
and ours there. Our relations with that country should
be conducted on principles of justice; and it should be re-
membered, that India paid a tribute of three or lour mil-
lions, for which this country made no return. He
trusted, when the hon. member for Liverpool again
brought forward the question, these points would be taken
into the consideration of the house.
An Hori. Allama wished to do away with the asper-

sions likely to fall upon Dr. Ure, in consequence of the
language used by the member for Lancashire. The report
which bad been alluded to was in the bands of every mem
her, and would speak for itself. The aspersions of his
hon. friend were very inapplicable, as Doctor Ure had not
been named by the Government, but recommended by
gentlemen closely connected with the West India interest.
Mr. COBBETT regretted that the bon. member for
the Tower Hamlets had made so broad an allusion to
America with regard to its slaves. Indeed, he (Mr.
Cobbett) did not like the allusion made to America in his
Majesty's speech. There were not-two million slaves in
the Union. There could not be. He regretted such
statements should be made, as if to throw the Americans
into the shade by the comparison ; but if we could boast
of our conduct with regard to negro emancipation,
.they
could set against u., as a balance, their getting rid of
paper money, and in this would be found an ample com-
pensation.—(Hear, and laughter.)
The resolution was then agreed to, and the report or-
dered to be received on Monday.
SUPPLY.
Lord ALTHORP having moved the order of the day
for the house resolving itself into a committee of supply,
Mr. F. O'CONNOR rose and proposed his motion,
" That, by not attending at the morning sittings of the
House of Commons, his Majesty's ministers have not con-
formed to the pledge given by them in the last session of
parliament ; and also, that this house deems it essential, as
much from a sense of justice to the people as of respect
to their representatives, that some member of his Majesty's
government should attend during the presentation of the
petitions of his 1114-sty's loyal subjects." The ministers
had pledged themselves, when the arrangement for the
morning sittings was first made, that at least one would be
in constant attendance during the presentation of peti-
tions. Was this also to go into the general sack of unre-
deemed pledges? What excuse could the noble lord give
for not performing this pledge, which was voluntarily
given ? If the house wee content with the absence of
ministers, of course he could say no mote about it. lie
should never bring forward the motion again ; but be
should certainly feel it is duty to keep up at least as full
an attendance of members during the morning sittings as
he could; and he would count the house day by day, if
lie did not find forty members present.—(oh, oh !) The
other day there were only twenty one members present ;
hut no sooner had he made his motion than eighty-one
immediately made their appearance.--(A laugh.) There
were plenty of members to be found in the committee
rooms; but the moment he got upon his legs, the com-
mittee rooms were emptied, and down • they all came run-
ning into the house. Really more attention should be paid
to this very important portion of their business.
Mr. O'CONNELL seconded the motion.
Lord ALTHORP said the hon. gentleman was correct
in stating, that when he proposed the morning sittings, he
promised that either himself or some other cabinet minis-
ter would attend during that period and, at the com-
mencement of last session, he endeavoured to fulfil his en-
gagement ; but he must fairly admit, that be found it
utterly impossible to continue the practice.—(Loud cries
of "Hear, hear.") The physical exertion of attending the
house morning and evening, independently of the other
illness
which calls upon his time, was too great, and the
greatwhi c he
ohne
fisnueffme reendt. duringe
al
ra,s thseeasrs.i n
This) was astut
br ij be uctt ehd a tdo
bt he
eant
once before brought forward, after the last Easter reces.,
and he then understood it to be the general feeling of the
house that his attendance would not be expected.—(Heat..)
He then said, that, whenever any individual mintier in
tended to present a petition, or bring on any other busi-
ness which required his attendance, and would give him
notice beforehand, he would attend in his place, and he
could appeal to several hon. members to say, whether he
had ever failed doing so, when he received notice.—
(Hear, hear.) Indeed, the presence of one cabinet minister
would not be of any great use; for, unless the subject
happened to relate to his particular department—and even
then, in many cases, unless previous notice had been given
to him—he would be unable to give any satisfactory answer.
—(Hear.) Certainly, if it were the general wish of the
house that he should attend, it would be his duty to do
so.-(General cries of " No, no !") But he really thought
his doing so would be of no advantage to the public, but
would interfere materially with the business of the nation.
—(Hear.) With these remarks, he should leave it to the
house to say, whether cr not they would adopt the motion
of the hon. member.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL could not attribute any blame, per-
sonally, to the noble lord ; but thought it very desirable
that Ministers should be present during the reception of
petitions. He had presented many petitions, which he
would have wished the noble lord to have heard, and would
have given him notice accordingly, but for the uncertainty
as to the time when he might be able to bring them on.
Really something ought to he done. The house ought to
deliberate, and form some plan for altering the hours of
sitting.—(Hear, hear.) That house was the only house
that did business by night. They should sit in the day ;
the day should be devoted to business, and the night to
repose.--(Oh, oh.) The protracted sittings of that house
were ruinous to the health of members, and of no real ad-
vantage to the public.—(Hear, hear.) When he first came
into that house, and be was but a young member, it sat
only four days a week, now it sac five days, and had some-
times sat six. By a plan which he could propose, their sit-
tings might be confined to three days in the week. The
house originally met at seven in the morning, subsequently
at nine, then at one in the afternoon, and thus these bad
habits had gradually crept upon them. The house ought
not to sit after nine o'clock in the evening. No business
could be well done after that hour. Speech-making might
go on very well—(Hear, hear)—but no real business could
be done.—(Hear, hear.) After the explanation which
had been given, he recommended his honourable friend to
withdraw his motion, and he hoped that either he or some
other member wou'd bring forward a distinct proposition
to alter the hours of that house. Thirty or forty members
combining together could certainly compel early adjourn-
ments of the bowie, but that would be a very disagreeable
alternative to resort to.
Mr. COBBETT complained of the time wasted in
useless discussion in that house. They were that evening
going to vote 6,000,0001. after eight o'clock, and it would
be nine o'clock before they began to vote.
Mr. HUME agreed that it was impossible for members
who properly attended to their duties to support the great
fatigue consequent upon the late hours and long sittings
of that house.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped the question
would be taken up, and that the house would take into
consideration the propriety of adjourning at ten o'clock at
the latest.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR, in consequence of the unanimous
expression of feeling in the house, withdrew his motion.
—( Hear.)
The SPEAKER then put the question, that the order
of the day for going into Committee of Supply be now
read.

Colonel DAviEs and Mr. BUTHVEN rose together
to move their respective amendments; but
The SPEAKER decided that Colonel Davies's amend-
ment could not be moved at the present stage of the
business.
Mr. RUTHVEN then proceeded to read his amend-
ment," That it is expedient to take into consideration the
state of the currency, and the national debt—(oh ! oh)—
so that such modifications may be made of the public bur-
dens of the country as may enable the people to sustain
the charges and establishments necessary for the public
service." The army estimates were greater now than they
were in the olden and better times, before the change had
taken place in the currency and the national debt had
attained its present enormous amount. Whenever any-
thing was said respecting the national debt or the cur-
rency, there was always an attempt to get up an alarm,
and to raise an outcry about the national faith. The
o` jest of his motion was to afford an opportunity ofan-
swering some of the very unfounded charges and insinu-
ations which had been thrown out against certain persons
on this subject. The greater part of the enormous debt
of 800,000,0001. was contracted in one currency whilst
the interest was paid in another, which was most unjust.
Justice to the public and the nation at large called on !hem
to consider whether they could not come to some equitable
arrangement, so as to secure to one party the permanent
payment of a proper and fair interest; and to the other
relief from the unjust burden imposed upon them by the
obligation of paying the interest of the debt in a currency
different to that in which it was contracted.—(Hear.)
At no great distance of time, some financial operation of
this kind must inevitably take place, and the sooner they
fairly met the difficulty the better. After a few further
observations, the hon. member concluded by moving the
amendment which we have already described.
Lord ALTHORP expressed his conviction that the
house did nut expect him to enter largely into the subject
touched upon by the hon. gentleman. Never, indeed,
fullyle-
it Hw e°
eurxli
pg
lraebi tent
ee ddt r
ttohlaueabtl
iontblgji ee
eththoehneh.
oghueasn
d
vain were he to enter into any lengthened disquisition on, t
nad so large a question been introduced by so small a
in
131.1.a—dA(snAl
tl amuugoalrise.!
s view.o
ap ae c
in
the subject.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped •
his hon. colleague would not
press his motion.—(A laugh.) He (Mr. O'Connell) had
given notice, for next Monday week, of a motion, in
which the subject would be discussed at length.
Mr. HUME observed, that the hon. mover did not
seem to have beets well understood. The argument of

his hon. friend was, that as there had been a great change
in the standard, that change ought to be made applica-
ble to the army expenditure. He hoped, however, that
hie hon. friend would not press the motion on the present
, occasion.

Mr. COBBETT contended that the change in the
currency ought to produce the reduction for which the
hon. member of Dublin bad argued.
Mr. RUTHVEN, in reply, stated that he had not the
slightest notion of the existence cif the notice of motion
which his hon. colleague had intimated his intention to
bring forward. He would not withdraw his amendment,
although he would not divide the house upon it.
The amendment was then negatived without a division.
The order of the day was then read.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Colonel DAVIES rose, in consequence of his notice
for an amendment to the effect that a select committee

be appointed to inquire into the military establishment and
expenditure of the colonies. Adverting, however, to an
intimation from the noble Paymaster of the Forces, the

.......
gallant colonel (as we understood him) expressed his
per-
suasion that government entertained every wishtodiminish the public expenditure in that department ; and
his disposition not to press his amendment.
Mr. COBBETT took the opportunity of alluding to
the case of a Mr. Burgess, whose petition had been pre-
sented to the house in the course of the present session.
Mr. Burgess had been charged with insanity, but there
was abundant proof that he was a man of great sobriety of
mind and intelligence. What he wished was, that Mr.
Burgess's petition should be referred to the committee
move 'l for by the gallant colonel. Mr. Burgess had de-
clared that he could bring to light acts which would have
the effect of restoring to the treasury of England three
or four hundred thousand pounds, which had been squan-

dered in Canada.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD, adverting to the subject of the
commissioners, who bad been employed for some time in
arranging the details of the commercial intercourse he-
”veen England and France, and more especially in inves-
tigating the practicability of withdrawing certain duties im-
posed by the two governments, wished to know if there
was any objection to lay the reports of those commission-

ers on the table ?
Lord ALTHORP replied, that he was not prepared to
make an immediate answer to the Hon. Member, but

that he would do so‘at a future period.
Mr. ROBINSON expressed his surprise that the noble
lord was not prepared to give a direct answer to the ques-
tion which had been put to him by his hon. friend, as in

the other house of parliament it had been stated, in an.
swer to a similar question, that directions should be given
to lay the reports of the commissioners in question on the
table. As nearly two years had elapsed since these com-
missioners, who were paid large salaries, had been actively
employed in the investigation intrusted to them, he thought
it was high time that some information., should be given
with respect to the result of their labours.
Lord ALTHORP replied that there were circumstances
which induced him to object giving an immediate answer
to the question which had been put to him.
Mr. STANLEY observed, that when any hon. member
objected to the motion to the Speaker's leaving the chair
in order that the house should resolve itself into a
committee of supply, it was natural to expect that the ob-
jection should have some connection with the subject
which was about to be discussed in that committee. Now
he did not think that the case of Mr. Burgess had much
to do with the subject which was about to be discussed
that evening. The case of Mr. Burgess had been dis-
cussed last session. It turned upon various questions of
account. Mr. Burgess obtained large sums from the
ordnance department. During the progress of the inves-
tigation Mr. Burgess disappeared. The ordnance depart-
ment would be glad to see Mr. Burgess in this kingdom
in order that the matter might be put in course of settle-
ment. But Mr. Burgess was in the United States ; and
he (Mr. Stanley) could show from certificates that Mr.
Burgess was labouring under insanity, arising from the too
free use of ardent spirits. He was glad to find that his
lion. and gallant friend was not disposed to press his mo-
tion for a committee of inquiry into the military establish-
ment and expenditure of the colonies, because he was per-
suaded that if such a committee bad been appointed, it
could not have led to any satisfactory result. At the
same time he (Mr. Stanley) had no wish to conceal any
part of the colonial expenditure, but would be happy to
afford any explanation respecting it which might be re-
quired. He was persuaded he should be able to show
that the military expenditure of the colonies was not on
any extraordinary scale, and could not, be safely subjected
to any considerable reduction.
Af•er a few words from Mr. HUME, who complained
of malversation with respect to artillery in the colonies,
The SPEAKER put the question, that he do now leave
the chair.
Mr. COBBETT expressed his hope that the right
hon. gentleman would not leave the chair that n,ght.—
(A loud laugh.) He remonstrated against voting away
millions of the public money alter nine o'clock at night.
The SPEAKER called the lion. member to order. He
had already spoken on the question.
The motion was then agreed to, and the house resolved
itself into the committee.
Mr. ELLICE began by declaring that he would waste
as little of the time of the committee as it was in his
power to do. The shortest course which, in his opinion,
it was practicable for him to take, was to enter into a
comparison between the army estimates of the present,
and the army estimates of the past year. At the very
outset, he begged to congratulate the committee on those
altered circumstances of the country which warranted a
considerable reduction in our military establishments, and
on his being thereby enabled to present the lowest esti-
mates which had occurred since the Irish Union. The
committee would observe, that we should be enabled, in
the course of the year, to reduce our force to 80,000 men.
The reductions he had to propose in the number of officers
would amount only to three—the colonel of a Ceylon
regiment and two second majors of cavalry—the whole of
which were now in process of extinction. The reductions
in rank and file would be 550 its the Cavalry, 6,640 in the
Infantry, and 550 in the Font Guards. The saving which
he calculated on the entire estimate would amount, in
round numbers, to 200,0001. By certain arrangements,
which were then nearly complete, he looked forward to
effecting consirierable reductions in the emoluments of the
colonels of regiments, and ultimately to a saving of
'75 0001. on casualt'es, which were not to be filled up.
2,0001. would be saved from the sum of 6,000/., for-
nicely voted for the table of the officers of the Guards—
(Hear)—.and for this he claimed credit for the government;
for though they bad not, porhaps, effected as much
as some members in that hone might require, and which
hereafter might be accomplished, this very arrangement
would show the disposition they had to meet the reason-
able wishes of the country. He would not then go into
details; they could be better discussed as each item was
proposed ; but the whole saving for the efficient land force
would tie 111,3421. 15s. 2d. On the staff there would
be a saving of between 1,0001. and 2,0001., although in
the estimates the charge showed an increase on the pre-
cdofh:iii.l'dbttlrwie no conclusion
oorf
ceding year ; but this was owing to a new arrfangehmfient,
is
bk- which certain garrison appointments came, or t e rst
time, under this head. The next item which showed a
reduction wit., the public departments, and here the saving
was 4,3141. 9s. 2d. The medical board had been in-
cluded in the land force charge. There was a saving
from the Royal Military Asylum for the education of the
soldiers ; but on this he should at present say
nothing, as he had so arranged it, having a balance from
former years, as to ask for no specific vote till the whole
q
d
.twhhuiiheidsrse
etnitdi
tohe
tnor
nhi
uneogytt fhoh
cte, t ha
iihemtnoetinwjait.
scoo
ndotfuheor
ndeuyanbvndteoocart
atel ifoo:onir
kit s
st
Dbe
vlhuef
ta,rl
b,dylaei
unl beldoexisexipevanri
dhye
ist
eha oeo
dup
bhb
oiyon
ti no
a-1
the house. He next came to the volunteer crhio:rophtse)h.edidUdu,ptnoioen:
goes. t ni,p,eowsr
hthiooi
unc
ihdo,
eet
hatebh
loel ua
ntgodh
dt
f,
(0, irtet
oew,
hoai usn ldsdahtbiees f
hba
(lea
ttdit
oecnr
0. tmo
elannt
osew:
nhe re-
sequence of what had passed in that house last -ear he
thatf
thr
e eays e
arthes—l
or Irish I ia
tcaolrips
events, had
if
ft
abeen p
,cratliloend
bad
been employed the other bad riot—he might omit any vote
on that account.—(Hear, hear.) In another branch of
this force he had also succeeded in effecting reductions. It
had hitherto been the custom to call out the various yeo-
manry corps on what was called permanent duty for the pur-
pose of training, and the pay to each was '7s. 6d. per diem.
The pay for training in quarters was just half of that;
and so, by doing away with the permanent duty, there
would be a saving of 3s. 6d. each man. He had been the
more anxious to make the reduction at the present time,
as this year there would be an addition to the ordinary
expenses of such corps for new clothing, but he was happy
to say he had so arranged it that even with this additional
vote, there would be a positive saving to the public under
this head. He would not, however, fatigue the house by
going through the estimates item by item, as they could
be more fully explained on each sp cific vote, but would
state that the total saving would be 200,000/., in which
he included a sum of 30,000 L, Exchequer fees, for which
credit had not been taken. It was now his duty to state
what had been done in the higher departments of the ser
vice. In obedience to the recommendation of the corn
inittee, the various items had been placed under their pt o•
per beads ; so strictly had this been attended to, that not
one shilling would be found under a head for which it had

snotav i
obeen
recommendedfi de
bexpended.--( committee
colonels of regiments, had been made.
scants,tat
od ,
hadto beoo
tsure, o
6badl
le occurreddo p .
ho and
itslo) iOns,nolayisi
also been dealt with according to their suggeogt:r a. s re-
although such appointments bad been retal
estimates
hospital
x therepeos
ohs
,a d
which always
quired the performance of effective duties,
linrUebdeearrt.he beadsv:.
Another
as circumstances might require.--(Heir, bear.)
In former
nexed them to the Staff estimates, so as tothberyinbgattd`lbv;;;
alteration was with respect to the Guards.
it was obj
every year under the notice of Parliament, to be3t:eh°la:lteriqb:eeaf.oinatredune:_
provided be had thought i
men on the establishment. For this manage
better to substitute a vote enabling. the guar" to huie
be placedectui
their own recruiting and hospital expenses, w the
amounted to 8,7801. He should not disguise front 0
house that all these allowances found their way, soonert.
that
Iplaertaee:ree,ottothethe stock purse i i f the regiment. He admitted
01),,.',
be well paid, and that the house and the country so wishedt :
it, he thought it much better that such charges should n.os
been
a Ifoetre
dft
rhooe. m
m wn
living
anxious to form for the guards a regulation in lieu of thatt
4fo6r4r, recruiting strndt
which had been so long established ; and if he bad nor a
otntent,leisaleruilar 1 e
fictitious
aatni
tdi 0 :es: i e vbienagd
heads.
that every
T h er
eofaffirceer,
he teas
ls
it was
eaaberac.de:ns ofctehl irettebamiewneligtylhu.
no fault of his. If the house would give ht
same credit wit' year?9,°?de
would earnestly tr ,
endeavour by next year to place the mat 1
sad
could .
weree moremi whollyfao r l
cgehaicise,
ieeiwdt aea
alterationssadnt,de
xphltitee.enesnsswedntneohfftduiessl
ntdtasoaai ovd assure
dhipointeroimnthtelhresitsb( committee
an.
eald
t:hiliry
,i
do.—( Hear.)
go at a more rapid pace than be was dispoed
they h ould assure the committee, that however anxious
to
the
cost, in fact, no more than the effective force of the line--' i
oaeipdrodpisie.sn, heren
ayTtnohdaes
oa
nydr
regiments
thing
ifheowiaonr
gtews
c;o,
orr
bfdaast
another'
gunort
tot br:iioe: il
did not occasion the expenditure on them of one shilling
more than was called for by the necessities of an equal
number of men from other corps. (Mr. Hume was 00'
derstood to express some surprise.) If the bon. member a
for Middlesex doubted what he said, he assured him he ws° 1
able and willing to convince him by a reference to doer
runts. The next point which had been urged in the :,
report of the committee which sat last year, was as to
reduction in the pay and allowances of a certain nurnber I
of general officers, who, rather by aceident,she believe°,
than design, had been included in certain distributißoiabe,
which had been made at the end oft e year in 1
re ~
Now, when he looked at the ages of these different ofteia ~
—the average of them being sixty-five, he found he eh
al-
he making a much better bargain for the public, by for
rcedomuemtiaonndeorf-inth-Cehsietafffagaaitnshteaadn:
lowing them to retain their annuities, than providing
them in any other way. 'there was one point of eronli
which, although recommended by the committee, he u
found it impossible to carry into effect--be alluded too ,
committee would abstain from entering into any "''ab° a
on this point till the vote itself was before them, a' byw
telt
he would show the reasons which bad been pleaaeu - 8
all the recommendations of the committee. In the cll./ 1 .
missions on the estimates last sear, he bad bound ht ores
by certain promises to remedy some abuses in the el'a,-
of the present year which had been pointed out to II
After a few remarks on the Royal Military myho, lit
Hibernian School, which were a mere repetition °'
(lea
former observations, the right hon. secretary proeee of
to express his intention of winding up the affair° of
tt
Kilmaitsbam Hospital, and transferring such Pall 10
the establishment as it might be necessary to retain
the Irish Ordnance Department. In Chelsea HoPita was,
was ample accommodation for all those pensioneora.a,,teetio
from the circumstance of being without relatives a d ir a
1• 3 V) 'l
or from other motives, might prefer an in-penstu
ogees
out-pension life. The number of persons receiviugir web'
of this kind was about 85,000, and he tbougbt
t. e
_OO
advantageous both for England and Ireland, tba;oh
_usueof
thus paid by the justice and the liberality of
9,.. re. of
should be spread over as wide a surface as 10 et,
P:hould oe-c
These mere
course to those who chose to go out he ,ihneity
inducements to do so, but there were several in rta sul
be made;e of
barn infirmary for whom provision ought to
as there was at Island Bridge, the great artillery:l7oo
Ireland, every convenience, it was his intentiooitd bee pre.
the there. By this step the Machinery Ouaould errr
rilserved,heeqarotnibre
learned
brought
tatimntids:
member
ttf,bheteoaibrsneutfoorocircumstances• Dublin,• saving• establishment
ln
a2o. tf:ohtoeHhoeel
i.
otoiwao
lin:
adgieuttsblaidteiterti„
.u.
0_
.7.pe
dr
ree f
fence, jocitaipoyb
ot,t
...i.: l ill,
He hoped that no impression would be tdlo°--astend7a
abroad, that by this arrangement any injustice ura',.- u, $5
to Ireland. He gave his solemn pledge to there'," phe
hear.) Before the present session, a cou3
any advantage of one country over the
government, to inquire into and report
appointed at the urgent request of naatlY friendst)the esed
head-quarters, boded,:,
coon" ,
diency of consolidating the various civil dePa idle'
been
reel
the service. That commission bad lined'v and grea
much valuable information had been g boy/ ere
progress made. Gentlemen were little awar so th
of pains and labour, and anxious thought• e plea!
alterations required. It was easy to (01.01_1_
effaet.::
but it was difficult indeed so to carry then:l.l°7 „aOOI,
t, make them work well for the public seervol_ceogjorit;,
pating, in some degree, the report of this
se°l to cone°_,A
might now state that it was already prop°
_ouuata ablu:o
date the Board for controlling the artnY a:ad also Po
with the Secretary at War's department; reed with of
branch of the War Office which was eh°espeasefor
his department, and would effect a,considervot oily detwori
the country. It was also proposed, though n
the -Ili t'l
officers' half pay. This would not add to then_ie wring are
mined on, to transfer the Commissariat Irony,
course,
to the War Office ; leaving to the Treasury,
el
colulli".set
necessary control over the chests for th
arrange tai, ,
(Hear, hear.) He might also say, that our 'to a ceTflo
muipssoioaasof
to
was in contemplation, by which to inlP°..,' whooTie4g,
extent, a restraint on the half-pay of all tl°7 of Pete
hereafter get into the army.—(Lon criesst the° e eai
hear.") The details, of course, he could
lied
(106,00
into. He hoped, however, from what h
slua Credit %tea
what he had in prospect, that he might 2 he had laiol
the house for fulfilling such promises and for sv''' 0(
which it was in his power, to fulfil,
be e°cleacl/1..
to effect any reduction consistent with t. e
estuo,te
the service.—(Lond cheers.) In 1792 th
_ceded °sof
2m,
t 3,3,
a0,d3,4t90iel 0 f Theu Righti s Hon.
stiPro perid' er
empire. In 1825 a larger estimate contended that all was then done which
scbments of tlae..:o
petted towards reducing military establi ~ rime 0441v0i
The reas°°oo
was made to add to the allowance of thesoldier.
,_
enable 0 i
toi—n
geS(xiHt
hirs.eetacaro:lon:
eßbr emolumentsieTs EttirrheehTni—s
obvious. The depreciation of the times did nut ad tbstif
should suffer want, when the country could °eta!, 0,1
wards him. He (Mr. Ellice) had received 030-,, eerr,sl'
lions from the country to reduce the estimate° "i 0015 :,
unfair, and should never lend himself to Bach
(la aut ae
sent to lower. 11 i
Mr. ELLICE—The lion b 01 0 • l; " ti
. mem er In .derin 0, 0
should
did, that the present sum which the soldier fiesta hose 1.
private pay,orfiug original
naelnalt:soldier'so,
statement,iirnodiiwe tedreao..Sprsa :as ttyl vhfiaß Secretary
Yuteue°ectgaoubtv volbstjoal
db.ut
receive 11'l e.,
tr:3 fairly
lebfb e 4.10171::), }rtir, „
not too much for his services and his toil. as
was b ef 1
Its Justice to the higher ranks of the artnY.,__. Tlieofi
to state, that the increase did not Of ect thnecn`; it :1 4 o° I.
of a colonel in the army was also,theareetead obtail? A' a
the battle of Minden. The etau, and if 1000 4
increase ; the emoluments were the samet ieo. lei
and gallant friend was desirous of enteringact atelor.
bad done, he ase. 01 to
minute calculations than he the 2- ea d 1)
wishes, but he would find the result uipa ep-
better eg roc'
country had now a more efficient, a
ands
go r bdool
sanction
rio
.no:
,c 1
06,
NOO
NO
Et:
provided force than they had in 1792 ;
va!aosny s 0 a I:
more reductions, a greater increase of e.'',, ref
for a;
L eLoto—posiTe lhht eal s
ebPie°i'Pfnu
il at,,tti°t°uh ce
rieiagllbede
,rIOOOI, '
resorted to than the interests of the pahuivrea for ' Tir I,
colonies. These were necessary to be i° i
iocr
South Wales added to the increase. bad
.ifi'
eaepber fa i,
there. ne." hip if
Mr. ELLICE—The hon. and le° iiijera- , je Al:
coloniesr
to
oa
r eish,
ietgn.
nhootssthTte.oralidbei
ceApbennioepeangurilemaactt,ytigeoudnwi
;rhea
acquired
hid swelled
sufssircv.eui
nneigttl
ilsea,(,:tifefoctfos
viry ;a
loct
tibuirep"ooser;so I:, ;
ii
:licit. rio6. : ',
and upwards of 30,000 men were
Pri,;,,ea, spier il
1-
spadcsei :sr.
assistance.
aitt
liannpycaer:ei
is
apne\ivcetuhi
When
.ag..
it:hi:hea rHear, emoluments
thaetae hear.)
.)a ll -,01:::::::::reibbi,oe104000
af the army. He should not oppose it. nid Vie, eV s'
his hon. and gallant friend that he 51)0 he lot el 1,9,
the house would congratulate itself vi'''etl 110( i 0 io Ike ,
the present was the lowest estimate calle
chars
geof yid ,,
was 3,168,2161. for the land forces, 01-1,-be decova:,
which was less this year by 11.1,3421,,, J. g C;°01
the tot a expenditure was 299,1221. 1'.30. 'g jol
weight was lesa by 350,0001. than in i'/do,allaea,lo if
credit on the part of the rmy for its anatieot 1000
pline—its exemplary aconduct---ils ar.a..- itee•offil/
of toil—the willingness of its obedieneabieb it
orders—and the forbearing manner in If ''. I

)r tight to propose any reduci
.onsideratigiuktquestion of
ime it aorldoper tc
iraortion in. which 'these
ear think, that at the preset
nierfere wttli the systentof
node is resolution t- the e
-

tented difficult and most unpleasant duty. The British
Theier, where he was known, was respected.—(clear.)
heat' Were popular in this and the sister country—(Heir,
)--and during his (Mr. Ellice's) continuance in office
'le had not heard one complaint of improper conduct on
their part.--(Hear, hear.) The army, he would again
ePeat, was never more popular
; and when the house
reflected on the kind of service it often had to per-
form, sent frequently from a climate—a burning climate
tO
osedentthe
eo
ef extreme cold and rigour, where life was
etzpa
;most perilous chances, andes, more often sunk
T cedes
Pe2dfi wh reflected thment were
honuen years en
onit at
such stations, heregi felt assured no
, • gentleman would seek to deprive the soldier of an al
peewrie:" "hardly earned. Hon. gentlemen had not ex-
the nee, but let them look at the dreary prospect before
eleffirer who had no money to purchase his steps,doomed
engthen out his days, without any immediate hope of
etit„eaininfl the high posts of his profession. Serving in a
te ti
Peace, and therefore without the excitement and
tlees of war, he would pause to inquire, was the lot
itueli men to be made worse, or was the active officer
anesZaiti?•-•••(Hear.) If be thus had met an affirmative
to er to his
question, he would ask—he was desirous
C7neWa 'where th e ll were to come from which
Itlp
et desirous to have saved ? He could truly and
1147_17 say that he had acted on the principles of his
11;•.friend opposite. He was most willing to save every
hilitalfl that could be s ared—to allow of no unnecessary
os-Pentliture tosanctio.nP no office that could he abolished
4,„,kaalflamated. (Hear, hear.) The difference between.
....leaf and his hon. friend was, that that hon. friend
Asp
nut
'placed in the position to reduce; were he so, he
salhl have to consider before he would propose the mea-
Ziteigh
ter he was so desirous now to carry.—(Hear, and
tti .) It was required to reduce the expenditure to
or Zile of 1822. He should question the expediency
e
n-L'eg 50. He had made out a statement, which h
tee- held in his hand, and which would bear him out in
2,14,4 original position. In 1820 the dead weight was
or--" 0,000/. In 1829 it was 2,939,8961. Under the
Keel!! circumstances of. the country, it was better not to
fofurther reductions. Let them wait another year
eth fulness of time. Should any emergency
114;11ny imperative call for troops,they should remember
tie 4%g nous cost that would accrue in calling out the mi-
(l6l-4Puttin the country in that attitude it should maintain.
With) ile sincerely thanked the house for the attention
eonAirtuch he was heard; and, relying with the utmost
!eq enee on the statements he had made, looked. for an
its -11-eleence in the estimates about to be submitted to
amid,lWideration. The right hon. Secretary sat down,
loud and continued cheering.
889atntile question that the land forces should number
feet: " Inert, deducting 7,684 for casualties,
las_!he ef-
r force for the year ending 31st March, 3'.),
bet'e s
O'CONNELL rose and objected to any money
zif toted after 10 o'clock.
• ELLICE—The question which the house was
asto
the ir.:l2Pan to adopt was as to the number of men, not
gisuoent of money.—(Hear, hear, and much laughter.)
!tiled HARDINGE—True ; the question was rightly
hi -h.- n 7 the right hon. Secretary. When money came.
Ites-`l;?°ted the bon and learned member's opposition
At
fa in 'place. *
roes;* IIMIE should be most happy to vote for any
bet tare which tended to regulate the bouts of the house;
rbia at the
, moment he did not feel himself restrained from
the 'Peak on the present question, notwithstanding
beach hour at which they had arrived.—(Hear.) He hair
lloettelith the greatest satisfaction the speech of the right
thst d "e Secretary at War, and he must in candour state,roore
open taring the whole of his parliamentary life, a
p4bi• a" more manly expo iti n never fell from a
%lilc servant of the crown.—(Hear, hear.) No estimate
stated be more fairly and candidly explained. The opening
*elements could not be quarrelled with. The detail-
-44 given in a manner that must have shown they were
toi Wit with a view to avoid anything like obscurity or
fetitieeraeePtion. He should give the right hon. secretary
auci7tdit for his desire to reduce the national hurden..,
Woul lie had. the sole direction of his department, he
the, pep e Perfectly satisfied. He was bound to state, that
eutica,,nieeli of the last year were honestly fulfilled. He
tillettoZ4 quarrel with his right hon. friend. Many re-
Would.' Were made which, but for him, he was quite sure
thus dial°t have been attempted.—(Hear, hear.) Having
ratan, italeitarged his duty towards the right hon. gentle
(Mr. Re 144 another duty to perform to the house. He
int; ,a4le) had never advocated the propriety of destro
nich4;tPartYl for the purpose of carrying a measure.
17" an hut. thOught essential, he shoul be sorry to sacri-
• °hould L'ielutt interest. Such would not be economy;
Con, wt. deprecate it. Some years ago he made a ino-
addres, wwe eareied with a little amendment, of an
few Weeks Majesty Majesty for a reduction in the army—in a
the `8 10,000 men were dismissed. Two years after
were teran lionstiatta
ere were reduced. The next year they
again reduced,
ttl!ttetivt. service, and shortly afterwards
the boasted eco e °facers retiring on full pay ! Was this
England ? y !achyl of the governments that had ruled
creased, and the coumeaseree the
Weight of taxation. Tta dead weight was in-
fall the past, the horeoLlecotueld eneodte,rehotwheevPerr,e=
the future. y could only adequately provide for
uture. Let hon. members then determine now
What Was
14 best to be done. Every honourable gentle-
set7 Who bad a seat in that house, unless he repre-
etl a very limited constituency, was pledged to
to
public charges. From stathteemeemntsirebenomrsoutnitea,
tiraPeared that the expenditure of p
fuji4).000,0001. and the taxation to 46,170,0001. He
"'Y concurred in the justice of the question of the hon.
ember for Dublin. Was the country prepared to keep
l▪
aces an enormous amount of taxation, under the pre-
cire •The right hon. Secre-
tor urnstances of the times ?
crease
Yatihad said he could not save the nation 2,600,0001.,
%n„ se the amount, in 1822, was so great. He denied
ee position. We should legislate for the present, not in
r f tence
aft' "l to the past. He felt taxes could not be taken
ees consequent reductions were made. He had
heyer given
liar •
i a vote contrary to this doctrine. He had voted
u
ii.trnight n the manner he had done, because he con
_m d no taxes would be reduced unless ministers were
pelted to do so. Five years ago he had stood up in
g,at house for the sinking of seven millions, which the
ettopile had then to pay. He was almost considered fit for
alibi"' for ao doing.—(Laughter.) He now found
etoo'ltere had come round to his then declared measures of
sad he had a right to take credit to himself,
"u,e,fight hon. gentleman would not concede it to
th .joskrleaer, hear.) What changes have not been within
which fifteen years ! he had stated facts in that house,
Lliti°Pteci elveyer unpropitious then, be now found were
ad pe.--(Hear.) At one time the right hon. Secretary
side en's'ee,d With him, had concurred in his views, at that
eare,,T tQe house; and he was now rejoiced to find him
FlatiodAteg,
.;them into effect.—(Hear, hear, hear, and 0 ter
He had said he was glad of it. He was
lugi 41,1, und the right hon. gentleman thus proceed-
tlewpii"Zugh he did not accord with him in every degree.
gear em the difficulties which encountered the right
whiejithenlan in his movements. They were difficulties of
and of t.b°n• nietnber for Dundee had had softie experience,
P4itlful..:"ell an ex-Secretary at War could give some most
„"!,e'unt•—(Laughter.) The army was, for a long
erteelje-nArue...r the sway of the Duke of York. He was an
etei, officer, and had done every thing to increase the
11"fe4:( "d dignity of the army, but it was at the ex-
vih ieh— the public purse. His influence was unbounded,
eeidie Iv" °Lie of the objections to a Prince of the blood
Na ti! such paramount sway. The Secretary at War
b e Proper functionary in which such influence should
e Placed
rtepoo . • He was then before them, and should be !VI
r,,po %tile for the acts of his office. If he was t
lattou"'hible officer all would be satisfied, because all would
tea▪ rs e would use his honest and honourable efforts to
teite.f°,.fligate expenditure from his department.—(Hear,
!„uali at: Ile (Alr. Hume), however, when he saw a. m-
ite ,4,-"en to reduce, was bound to state his objections.
r_11161:„„(1,oing his duty, and should never shrink from its
The right hon. Secretary had said, toe pre.
EiWst,a7B;l▪ et :attne_swiallest sum
Thedetnanded for many years. How
oft w
tile:upraper.ted ? present estimate was for
It/ • elliagt e!e sues were present estimate was for
- iflti than were embodied when the Duke
dliest on resigned is power into the bands of his
e Wb
.ar
1 %ill. eh Earl Grey first took office, in the first
I''°o ,
_! o,
4 Jlonge was added to the expenditure; and the ere-
t-, afterwards for bringing that sum back
114ndito ae estimates of receding years ; in 1832 the ex-
, „830,21 e, was 2500,0001.,182 t 2,700,0001., and in
,nF prettlit 001
--"s°
° N case hadle been proved for keeping u. p
,enormous military establishment. The force,
-tea°unted 'qcntry, cavalry, artillery, engineers, &. c.,
4'1,1". Nit:: 122,000 men in the pay of the British
the iftthi a force, lie would ask, to be main-
e eanobahee too, _.,.
profound peace ? Contrast them with
herr a:
he ~'"iopa in 1792, and_ how immense the in
f troop:mtnitted the colonies required a great nurn-
re
chunked u, acted
the present system ; but it that system
eo.eld not b the necessity would cease. The Mauritius
°I 500 e over' • maintain a force
all men, an ,cdted : they offered to mai.
Arse all suffi .(1 emancipate the slaves, which would be
inbly ,„etent, provided you gave them a Colomil
!Ports, full
070 had been refused; and hence your trait.
WOUid pr tr"Pa, sailing there.—(No, no.)
ipsulaLlittlio4titstioled this p
at the bar of the house. e lonian
upwards of 5,000 men ; yet, by the eti
retile L'y were bo
but }" d.bound to pay us for all above a c.ertai.o
tverrn the natives, and then the English