The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-12 00:00:00

BILL.

On the motion of Mr. CHARLES BULLER, the
order of the day for the second reading of this Bill, was
then read.
Mr. BULLER then addressed the House. The Hon.
Member spoke in a very low tone of voice, and we could
only occasionally catch the purport of his remarks. He
said he rose under considerable embarrassment to address
the House upon that subject, as he could not hope to add
anything new to what had alreidy been said—so eloquently
said by other Hon. Members. He hoped, however, that
as a Member of the Minority, they would do him the jus-
tice to hear his reasons for being in that situation ; and
be could assure the House that, in opposing the Bill, he
did so—not from any party feeling or factious oFposi-
tion—but from a sincere belief of the impolicy of the o'er-
sure. He confessed that he was sorry to hear the manner
in which the debate upon this subject had been conducted.
Hon. Members hail departed from the consid ration of the
evidence laid before them to justify this momentous and
perilous measure, into personal and angry discussion ; and
more especially into a declared hostility to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dublin.—(Hear.) The Members of the Govern-
ment, in bringing forward the Bill, had taken such pains
to tell them of the pain they felt at the necessity which
forced them to bring forward the measure, that those
very pains almost induced him to doubt their sin-
cerity.—(Herr, hear.) He could not help doubting,
too, the assertion made by two Hon. Members from
the North of Ireland, that the people of that part of the
country were almost universally in favour of the measure.
He did not mean to taunt the Members of the Government
with their speeches on former occasions; but he thought
it would have its affect out of doors, when ii was seen
that the majority for placing Ireland under military Go-
vernment was swollen by the names of the Member for
Tamworth (who said he reluctantly supported 'he mea-
sure), and other Members whose politics afire •d with those
of that Right Hon. B ironet—persons who said " Aye" to
the Six Acts, but said " No" to the Reform Bill.—(Hear,
hear.) He would oppose the measure, as calculated to
aggravate rattier than to appease the disturbances in Ire-
land. He was as sensible as any man of the necessity of
some interference on the part of Parliament in the then,
state of that country, and he considered it the dory of Gi -
vernment to devise means for the protection of the property
and lives of the people, but it did not appear to him that
it Was necessary for that purpose to go into a measure
which destroyed the Constitution. A measure was intro-
duced which destroyed the Conatitutioo, at the very um

when it war molt important that it should be maintained
in its utmost purity. Violence and rigour were employed,
when the true remedy for the evils of Ireland would be
gentleness and moderation.--(Hear, bear.) Gentlemen
seemed to think that violence and rigour were one and the
same thing; but that they should remember was but the
old blunder, to which so much of the misgovernment
of Ireland was to he' attributed. He would not have
it for a moment to be supposed that he wished to deny
to the Government such powers as should he necessary
to repress the disturbances ; hut be thought that the
recommendations of the Committee which sat last year to
inquire into the state of Ireland, would be sufficient
for that purpose. That Committee proposed, on the
advice of their Chairman (Sir H. Parnell), that measures
should be adopted, the object of which merely was that
the administration of justice might be enforced against the
Whiteboys with more vigour and in a more summary man-
ner; and that some of the provisions of the Insurrection
Act should be put in force to prevent nocturnal mewing@
by the conspirators. This he (Mr. Buller) would willingly
agree to. He was not so much wedded to trial by jury,
that he did not think that in some cases it might be sus-
pended, but he objected to courtsmartial If Government
were to propose the establishment of a civil tribunal, with-
out the intervention of a jury, he would not oppose it; nay
more, he would not object to a permanent tribunal of that
kind, which might at all times be really to repress disor-
ders. Hen. Members, by their speeches, seemed to think
that there was medium—that there was no way of repress-
ing those outrages hut by intrusting the Government with
despotic power. And when the Government came to
defend the appointment of courtsmartial, they seemed to
him to beg the question. To him it appeared that a con-
stitutional method might be devised to repress the out.
rages, which would neither place despotic power in the
hands of the Legislature, nor leave it in the hands of the
mob. He was not present when the Right Hon. Baronet
(the Member for Timworth) mentioned the story of the
murder in Clare, which appeared to make so great an im-
pression on the House; but what had it to do with the
passing of the Bill now before them ? It could only he
said that it was a horrible murder. Horrible murders
happened in every country, and could not be prevented ;
and the only thing that could be done to their re-
currence was to punish the offenders, as was done in that
case. He saw no reason, if that murder were brought as
an argument for the passing of the present Bill, why the
murders committed by Burke and Hare in Scotland, and
by Williams and Bishop in London, should not be brought
forward as arguments in favour of a similar measure in
England.—(Cries of "No, no.") But such arbitrary
measures would not prevent murder in either country.
There was her:fly a clause in the Bill to which he (Mr. B.)
could give his support. They proposed the suspension of
trial by jury, the total suppression of the freehlom of peti-
tion, and the placing of them under military government.
He could not agree to any of these propositions ; but at
the same time that he recorded his vote as opposed to in-
trusting the Government with such arbitrary powers,
he was anxious to state his willingness to intrust them
with such powers as he thought necessary to repress
the disorders which they were intended to meet. He
did not entirely approve of the amendment which
had been moved by the Honourable Member for Mid.
dlesex, and he knew that several other gentlemen who
disapproved of the measure proposed by the Govern-
ment, objected to it likewise ; he had, therefore, drawn
up an amendment, which lie thought would meet the
views of ail parties, and he would offer it for the adoption
of the House—it was to the effect—" That this House
learns, with regret, the disorders which distract Ireland,
and while willing to intrust his Majesty with such powers
as will enable him to afford protection to the persons and
property of his Majesty's Irish subjects, and for the due
administration of justice in that country, yet they are not
prepared to accede to the extreme measures now proposed
by his Majesty's Government for the suppression of these
disorders." He felt anxious to give some of the leading
reasons which induced him to move that amendment, and
which induced him to think the powers demanded by the
Government as unnecessary. He would not go into the
question of the abolition of 'the trial by jury, because he
thought the arguments of his Hon. Friend (the Member
for Tipperary) on that subject, as unanswerable and un-
answered. He (Mr. Buller) objected to the abolition of
trial by jury—not from any particular affection he him-
self felt for it, but because he objected to any interference
with established institutions without sufficient cause ; and,
in his opinion, no evidence brought forward by his Ma-
jesty's Government had made out a case for the necessity
of that measure. The reason given for the suspension of
trial by jury was the intimidation to which jurors were
subjected ; but only one clear case had been brought of such
intimidation by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, and
he did not consider it as a lair instance to show the neces-
sity of such a general measure. Besides that, all the cases
of intimidation were from the same county.—(Hear.)
As for the establishment of courtsmartial, he objected
to them strongly on principle, and, in the present instance,
be thought it was not necessary. In Clare, in Wexford,
and in Limerick, the disturbances had formerly been put
down without courtsmartial. He thought that courts-
martial should not be adopted but in extreme cases. Mili-
tary tribunals had always been the worst tools of reckless
tyranny—(Hear)—and he thought that the only reason
which could justify the Government in proposing them
was, that the country was in a state of civil war. He
d nied that even on tie showing of Government there was
anything like a general rising of the people. All the dis-
turbances consisted of detached acts,, and most of them
might be traced to improper interference on the part of
the landlords. That was the case in Limerick. In Clare
'hey arose from the high price of potatoe-gr and ; and in
Queen's County it would be seen from the evidence of the
Palish Priest of Maryborough, that the cause of the dis-
turb inces was principally the interference of landlords.
That gentleman says, " One of the most prominent in my
parish was the turning out of tenants from Major Cassan's
estate, to the numiier of 27 families; he had a Kildare-
street school, and he said that no one should be on the
estate that would not send his children to that school.
There were other ejectment@ before that, to the dumber of
twelve, on a small farm near the Rock of Donamore, on
Mr. Cosbie's estate; most ef those people became very
violent Whitefeet, aud I know some of them still belong to
that associati n ; such as rem tined in the parish, and
wherever they go to, they follow the same practice." And
it would be seen from what follow. d, that it was not for
a rise of rent that these persons were turned out, for Mr.
O'Connor proceeded to say—" To whom did illejor Cas•
san let the land on the ejeconent of the tenants ? He let
it to Protestants generally, and the people considered it
was through hatred to their religion that he ejected them.
Did not they owe some rent ?—Yes, they did, but the
lend was let at 30s. an acre, and it is now let at 225. He
and other landlords kept up the war prices, which has
caused great evils in the country. The land which let
for 275. at that time is now let for eighteen shillings as I
am informed." In fact, it would be seen that the in-
variable cause of the Irish disturbances was oppe salve
measures, high rents and contracts broken. Tee real efforts
of Government should be directed against the causes of
agitation—these once removed, agitation itself would soon
follo:v. Ministers, some time aga, had promised to do
away with the greatest of all these causes—tithe. Ireland
was overjoyed at the prospect of relief from this most ob-
noxious impost; order was immediately established, and
every disturbance ceased. But no sooner was it found
that this promise was disregarded—that Government were
again proceeding to levy the payment of titbe, than ag-
gravated disturbances again broke our, recommencing
in precisely the same county as that which beheld the re-
inforcement of tithe. The present Bill was certainly not
of a nature to do good ; for it was, in fact, a Bill for the
protection of those very tithes which were the primary
cause of the disturbances sought to be put down. In
short, so long as the least vestige of a Protestant Eats
[dished Church was kept tip in Ireland, the Irish would
have reason for discontent. The Ministers certainly see re
entitled to great praise for the Bill they bad brought for.
ward for Irish Ceurch reform; but, however good this
might be, as far as it went, this was not far enough.
When there has/ been a question as to the Church establish-
ment in Scotland, the then Government had not thought it
sufficient to make a compromising reform in that establish-
ment—they had reformed it altogether by abolishing it
This would be the proper course with the Irish Church
establishment. If Ministers did not come to this consum-
mation,of
this the Bill they had brought forward would serve
little other purpose than as an ornament to the statute
wererd
shoulde s
advisee r bthice
.dRo doubts
inH Hon.
(bioisockre.tioln'hoef ptrheeseLnot
iewuatsentarnutstoedf
.atbo?ubte
tvbeeryvciaueurtit,oyu,ss
s
gbreefaotreanhiei
(reAgiru.isßiteuicileirs,cs7mtioinnd.thetriee
unexampled popularity in his viceroyalty. lie (Mr. Buller)
sSbeucirteldtaargyaifuor
fervently trusted that this Bill would net be brought int,
effect. If it did, he should bred those who granted
the powers to Government as res?onsitile for all the dread
tallrkelasnodl'ergteolY
ful consegoeoces which would infallibly ensue.—(Hear,
hear.) As Walpole expressed it, " Those who give the
power of blood, give blood ;" so those who now give the
required powers to Government would give them the
power of prolonging the misery, the crimes, the barbarism
of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member concluded
by reading the amendment.

Mr. HAWKINS seconded it. He had not supported the
amendments proposed by Mr. O'Connell, or by Mr. Hume,
because he felt that there certainly did exist in various

bleinpFdarti:tagaisfrettlies'eed-1'11:14
ietsi,otunrabannileestt
powersciceehxne dcrfoe such 0 ,„.gardly Pwciii
re vib'i
exertions 11..1
it
app
eSactly thosexts,
and outrages usually fell upon e
an e
.00
d that -e boll
chmpf for reur :set somewillingffrTnlmrtlnaa Ireland
lgdi additional
evsveu i,
and
with
~5 t h
least likely to help themselves
ia Vor 3
andafrnoommthoa eluyt: outrage.
ere
. grievences'nolitied sod
see the slightest connection betweenro
ail_ digdeet 01
agitation—agitations arising from t' Y
and Oder I„O
conducted by totally different leaders,lt
appeared
bi
different system of organizvi"' to bays bees
that two distinct measures ought
gtietnnTeebriafsollrßystilwplenwakasinpgr,nposed
oirhich
be
forwardsu ch a forpi
„tnhewnnid suppressionbave
which the Bill, as it now stood, had ").,
~,.al on
agitations, the House had been . _:o
_.
was not moved by distress, because.tennoginhto sof
he had stopped a wayfarer, or br It .
e,.. pig
proof of the connection
pickedbetweenttobledePttcl3.7o: cf06:01
I•T h Teirrr Yriii h
murdered any man, hail helatedvvians
therelpeol
robbed to the least amount. 0, t „ ~,etake-'‘
—he knew what he was about too well " eve 01
ratter among the people, or his otvn gitok__ teee's
a pOm 004
sake of such a prize as the contents of
or house. He knew very
this was a very inferior specuhtion tot.tiet.e is 1
He was as judicious in this matter as tre';_.l„ Dais!
Blas," who, while keeping his fusil cs
cool; aros,
that hero, still grounds his denten&
...
were
Reform atrhicteoy
oc
thisit:
within the House, but it was directly the rorlqiiistils
th's ;Deal
scoreraigw, do
fthpeozyasaunrdes
humanity.content
thousand in England, or one out of one bur. ,s Bill, j
Ireland, s Ito, in reading the heading of to; deaor
translate it, " A Bill for the suppress 01 for the 04
It was necessary to give sufficient powers '‘'
oesst,
sion of outrage, but at the same time terries'Ti i
be such as would leave a rankling and a be tra-4.
them. Why should not moderate pawer. Reste"
in the fist instance? As the protecungeoo:
Ireland, it became us first to try and still il_i ice .1
remonstrance ; if this did not answer, "y_,,,,fir
then by severity; and then, if all other 0107.010/1
would of course be necessary to bind the ..,, Os
and foot—after other means failed, but let tie,'
means first. Supposing the Ministers hlice au ,
arbitrary and unconstitutional powers fur opt'
of these disturbances, might it not be l"?'''sbe rot)
sort of political gambling, which would, 10,sdro. A
to the worst results? For would not after I' to
on the strength of this precedent, have reco.3eile
violations of the Constitution on every tai sr, tlis i
Had Charles the Tenth managed his inroadsfist
0010
stitution by slow and sure precedents, he 113.1gfaigliiii
have been at this time on his throne, hu.''.o of.e,
al
brought the country bark to the deertitheol°
Quatorze. The great object to I e effectell bY re sod
to put an end to the intimidation of j,"°.;drete'
nesses. He must confess, that as regarded e-woult!
hail taken the bull by the horns, for they pay
plenty of evidence, true or false, when t".emeriso '
for non-appearance was three months' I"oo`geet
The Hon. Gentleman then expressed the Str rte
of objection to the proposed system of Vis-00.11:
he would much rather prefer selecting a srdo;;ir
Westminster Hall than from the Horse Cti 1031,4.1tH
the substitutes which bad been mentioned l'e sja ts'j
, 1.1 same
country
footing
w fp or
doy oee
aerardessi
wasnat
egh oso
.9(
te, fhlowoetft obviated
hfeh
rlettealhsTdeei tiseb bleartesgreaoyign:.ti ithidea
lab..-Itneatidge.-o°ltt.irlDrvr,ree.ii:::4ololr i
e.getillt bl'
prefer to the court proposed in the 13iii. the ''
wlatterere twoashefaprowlioeersed,oth,aanndaevceonurtmartiek; the
which was, that it was both judge and jury; ,D.ory, 01
contemplated were not only to be judge alic i As it
clause which gave the police a power to tesutoser:rvicabailalt/?
neit
tnh
nehireei
gshewrtiasrnenanssootnhi nfogr conflicts,m
ei more likely
ob igleoia bwtrhonaanidil
dtshvbeisttheisses-orepe 1:900i 0
tpbbh *, :
y:oee wnbwn mightwetei
argtibsoth
boithstoaer:unnupretseeothuw,
concealed
would.—(Hear,
et
irneomdadwui
olitietnswe
iwadn.tpon_liuduuo
nrn:tph,i
hHeoecersaeaemanhr.trdrohn,yure 1
more
Swueeran.uiol
_rtdipokh.
epf),,r(oli
likely
Fits einnoaatt
rnhri
Dtc:egpYrso,
renbei
,_;;-b_citieive• so:,
jaogp
obst:,ol
offi, . i .90j;.
01
purposeoenter tahnadnstehairschobhnoouasieosu.s clTauhsaet, which grltiefec' fit
power, :04 Al,
gave the power to search the house, tbei -1..143 6
stcß.‘eoViiiughgarlocibhhtut csubfHeooenuoridtnindt7e.hrcsesdettnasHerscanaeridreytathtroye
destroytl innei
no f
that.
thi distinction 1 ncti ti
Arms n
building Lat
on dsge:sva a tx t
01011, , a:11
There was one probable effect of this eirb Geat.
he could do no more than allude ; Vgleb GePL
cealed in a bed, or about the person. 'dbieblllaii
imploredtaiiHihg
hueerae, entreated
htteodwas
rartadoosrsatitimploredohuiimd,b ehel
itahbbeleel iHetovoeuadsniat:teougell;bgettfilliljtiti
indipetforrmuuott
hvhst
rteietasosiguopHenicspth(
cjaoauhuafga
esaptepi 1 1
tn, oaeobswi
:Bt
pause,e
:i power
:in , ,
~oa,nhtltdelihibeemoehtysfh:ex
irls, veess ',et,.
,yo.
~,: e
ei $
re
,0?0,
~11,
would abuse it, because it had always heicre. Ott
ifs
common soldiers and policemen a power, v11%0031 I
Con o the decencies of domestic life,lit 1,10
recollections of which might efface all the 0,0 ii,„ n
the atrocities of the Riding Schools:7,
ot rui(l'ilnger
pot
01 'l4;'
Id I
a law,—(Hear.) He would, in conclusiclo Pop
word as to the course be thought it his diltYaeat ...i
He had telt, and he continued to feel, re9r Ow
AL, 4,2 OS,
tacbment to his Majesty's Ministers. ,----thea .-- ge
a stronger proof of the continued confideli-iag ec_.lv
1
mined in their good intentions, than his hsv,,:, forr,
ti e first reading of the Bill. He could 11"- 011, i
the executive Government, front its situatieseolao 1
excused for proposing a measure which the 000101
reptesentatives of the people, ought not °Lase' '
Majesty's Ministers might not improperlY,."-riest ::
the House, as the guardians of the public livroofer i
see fit to refuse. Tbe duty of tie Executive peofle'd
was to protect the lives and property of the f 00.
duty of that House was to be the safeguard e 001,0
freedom, and be camel that it was not lia'!eethe.„o:
fringed. He knew that it was said, that I, se Ili
opposed the Ministers, it might lead towhe:ol %iie
majority of the people would regard as a 0511% 10,0:0
—the resignation of the Ministers. Such 'l,r iii
he he knew, was entertained ; but he thoilg thei:,
founded in an erroneous view. In his opiaill'se li
Lord ought to accept the powers which, .., rake i
tnent might be dispo.ed to grant. Let b'frogitllllt
and give them a fair trial fir six or tweleel-esit ,0
after that come down to Parliament O- ,•lest '
powers you have given us have not been au""Aadgef
press outrages ;" and then the House teigliLoterg'pt
ti,lin,, as it would in the integrity of the Ai°
l- 01°,44
ther the power should be granted. Ten Irsr
time for the House to judg,-, whether, out ercsisle.,
sgt:
tleir:rteeayvaitrit(tc)
hifepnsartdtandi
cebviitlieyinairdvcgduaitplhlaestrelhigtsee(thpe,
rPoonet,giyawitnuuitelin( intentionslantesedsyitthiipht,nrherotdeyeowyelideaffnnnelmohtouceaudastmvitn_dea(avini:eghad(
aoe}eli:ndi utiss
vs
tit:lP: e
cieeooo!4::::ii:ve it;:ll",s'e
,spe.,htr•
liaitpechrwtsi
etpraeaenci,e,kpr
cwohnofiiiewnceee,led.tmchaooturt‘ittlihiteeudtp:b:nylnpto(iltivilaseiacart.lh)etlenite,a)::2: ivi
rwo
which,
c,
iTheai,n question
he
withe
gsrueb, was
,steri
ini thensubscribed
put upon the alle."1, st
°flijit"
ehaa,,,itniliyesfoortwtahred,Btialll
hhadedarlatitiakpaid heard the opt
e•dniel 071:.
Lord MORPETH was unwilling to "I„rds ~.
He contemplated this Bill wit' the cal
it was arbitrary, despotic,plsilteillyevd:erietbuo,:a'tihnictde-thc°eriflueafell.iillilje°:spi°tiel
Member had called it unwise, which was
~elialtierri)
could not adopt, because that supposed it 7°,1 inl dl
could
the purpose. He had seen it Colle beeelj
print; and that he could not agree t°'d niv"ols
a'trlbuttcl motives. It had been callel 010 l
and atrocious. He ft lt, nevertheless, that i, tvbiaceet
sary to adopt it, because it had two attribute we i
over all the others. The Bill was, firm',, of 0.,0Y,
stern necessity ; anti next, it was a nlearefini37/,
mercy. To the best of his judgment, 5' _art 0.1.
completely established their case. In every .r_
eat,sy,
the confidence in their characters was foll•Yea,,i3l,
Every person with whom lie was acou:llal• ed i
de -r%
society with which be mixed—he heard Pelt:100(y
!sting themselves that they were out 01
of call Iti
no.) NI, property was safe; and On man ~e 0,1,1
didwas nut‘i,h
what
b rejoicee hadtI) that i
elinen
ehda had n none
converse in nl:teil„annd.7.lke:;if, •
those v.'ho argued against this measur, bayingto.",
t Ol Of ,
of merry, to put themselves in toe place
wile 00
inhabitant of a cabin in Ireland, and say c of .
would nut rather be disturbed by the entrba:tienaoooo,
thor.zed servants of the King, than by
nt
to
esee.o
lawless marauders who came on a mission
the cfni
commands of bloody revenge ? He said aell3e (
of mercy was proved by the protection thensahib
aye
lffelanirrsadi
nantgonbta;ldi eht,neertenntihimi
the
i andgger
ei nat
tho adbtibiri taeerncentuncodvfpi
tionnurncbortif:tertislos7

01

astute (he two countries, waa not so much in. thot
thou, of the outrages committed, as in the sympathY
could
otshyPebenPle• Here, when Swing was heard of, he .
lad 4, irs,rmeted with some gentleman riding in a. 9.::
an Nand an outrige was followed most generally by
shineit at a rescue and an affray with the police.
of th bad to his mind so well illustrated the state.
Ili': ,"'ntrY al the circumstance mentioned by Ina
:i 01' "annurable Friend (the Secretary for Ireland)
fi: appeal he had made to the House, of the stoppage
It a.a,.
_alita of the Irel rod Steam Navigation Company.
sf '1'4.41 that the want of employment was the cause
t apill'uotadal°rders of Ireland_—(Hear, hear)—and of
whotlat
theera(i waa the Hon. Member for linare-boroeyr,.
res
sehich h's remark, but here was a case of six b' gr_
forrai Were stopped on the canal, and the per!ori! we
ne
opend'a leave theni, under threats of losing their livesthie tan,,lY; The consequence was, that property to
far ,i., NlO,OOO/. was left to deteriorate and be destroyed,eren
Lytha.peroPle Would not work at moving the barges, even
rale.,4 '4,4 of double wages. Concession w ittdp,,Was lovely in all our nature, and deligabntaful,, fnroTa
thite.'"e effects; but he doubted whether concession
of ih44 trould insure the continuance of the navigation
ht
to hetae.l4l.---( Hear. ) It was said that poor laws g (p,,,,,inr!'en to Ireland he could not then enter ito that
tbowi `-he had nothing to say against
favour
poor iaws, but
ofih Prrhaps at A proper time have much to say in _
....
bigt:4; bin in the present state of Pat liamentary andAlol,.
ilhe'l:lhu'iness, he should be sorry to tell the peoplecon?
tarta-,,nY to wait for relief till the Parliament cs old
°Titt,r4 l!tt' for Ireland. The Bill, he said, was a rneeas_u_re.
cLl'e it °p' ea.' and nothing hut necessity coot r
and
tl'da. Ile did not pleda himself to all its detarls, and t C 'IQ f a•
principles and
tirran, orget ma attachment to the
wish-d to
1'6;1'44 of constitutional freed ,m ; but he w
ro.
Petty 1"I'w efficient for the protection of life a°
tpwas
tort(i d for tlas redress of injoriea and wroncs!. 1,..a,.,_
h 44' of the Government to secure the bumblethsl
it:
theitrittaiet and peaceable posoresaion of their hearEo,a l
4°Pl44l"t"ths fle did not believe that theheir
molifish
tliarrei 'ud in this Bill any cause to weaken
their
f those
ttitsti,4i„,,the
.Ministers. They right y loil,l'd " ,
%viol " Whrch required it. He did not doubt the goor tliat7l.at the Miuisters towarda Iteland, nor coultilshhesdeny
into
'144'7: '''aa a necertaity to carry those
good
wishes
these
prepera •ecuton. He was qui e ready to
I,llate h.'s° the Alinistry, because he was conic inceedi
lea
shaotf
111.,,„„t ".°lvere the most ready to uphold the prin p
d.
Y were I
strenuous in conten mg
Ig,a4t - arivsys the most
They were only
doing
a:,°srehy and in preserving r rder.re . and if
thel, had
was right in moving for this
tad ha?tot moved for it. they wool I haveniea mdu_e.gretn'heeriannsid,e,
IN
%II is°4ll not have felt that attachment f
tilili,,,, uaPpy to feel. The most h••nes• and 'best friends
tats, -Y were always; the most studious! to repress out-
, ler'Dfirth' most resolute to uphold order.
tii, • - a ...., regretted that
''•,' -kc'K.Npv the Noble Lord, the
Nat 4trn'nt of Carlow Lord Duncannon) waos not
illhie Lora'vll"l he had presented some petitions, r. the
alWould have been convinced that the people t
:Ij'Yend e Y Were p-aceable. Up to the last month it had
4'''ath "I'llaarative tran uillity. The I.\ o r e Lord said
t-tsii:afd lately. heard sqome reports
much
disturbances, but
'at with. opinion that they were much exaggerated, and
hid n,a nninth there was but ooneho,uothrage of an ag-
-1) Carlow
~,,q 4,,e,,
riettracter.—(He,.ir, hear;
into it.
44150,.: let tell the Whitefeet had penetrateddid
tt44l, 1,4 and the country gentlemen . not prevent
Sr -1,6 Y ealne from the neighbouring
farthing
counties till
its h:areed the rit'•er, and they did not care one . t
4hreplver which took them over the bridge.--(Grea
4tNatf) The Hon Member then proceeded to argue
'titr tength, th .apathy
• trefri„. at the
perform their other
of magistrates, anti the
loti4, 6,"tt of the police to patrol or . 'l4, 11,4 d caused the spread of Whitefootism into Car-
tito , °ri, the relationieo of the details into which the
41altatdA"ettihe'r entered,
'''lstiri-' 50,1 frequent peals of merriment broke forth from
ailall. Nortvere the much allayed whets
the
observa-
tio rr begged the attention of the House to his
. Hon.
ally and a_ .
114le 1 '',ously assured it that no single.ont.e—e
snesosrhe,ov_en
,illa hoe°,cluent speeches delivered. through n
N"'jell he I'und, in knowledge or Judgment, equal to that
aar. would presently unfold. As an instanceexoafEgthee.
ntalta iato_, which petty offences in Carlow were .
Pr4on ureadful crimes, the Hon. Gentleman said that
4tatel ' aecused b • one Ann Magee, had betternaner,ePbree--
t4atehsLth'Perpetr),itor of a most horrible en ,
cm..
flirauseih4clt aeooperl out the eyeisieobf a.
aged leave to correct)
1:-,.f.....ol• er for some time.) blind horse.— I
The the 0,1,4 eye was quite blind—(Shouts—.?
"a Iv 'r eye was little better.— .
4glitste.. °T,atta_stnuffered no injury for the evidence which she
r
.s. trig A. ' onths after:however, she was taken up 0
14 Rtiv'elie t° the hay-tick of the Magistrate before whom
I,4°,talace3 °l*(trtnation. In the county of Carlow, he knew
14dPoli, °I Which men who were engaged as half-and-
a 14'4' ."1"1 to preserve the public peace, wetest.henfidrasyt
tmaringlthafe
.outrag es. These men were paid '''
;a:at,' tilaeirttroce of their. employment, and do.uhtless they
ii,,,rit
ii,
~ cOunt . in keeping
still
ran highs i.
the county in a state the
t'a'loa, ' tranquillity. Party.feeling.
Act would cause it
to hutet a"
the powers given
bai 4it
5%. with additional rancinouti."sLet those who dared
do-
tlit,4last the wishes of toe landlords beware of retoli 'Y visite (fl ar ) He otibleecntedsuffle7,9,Bd.....4HAe.
14iZ11'.t)41,,..1,11: insultaewh'ich femalreesc
kribs:,(Aliantir,ehavas one fact more that he wishr d to mein
to that House had (e: liii 4 the „,_'• •)
.A petitioner.
i,,,,,tt he _ ,oantier in which his house haul been entered;
igih.like lopeswatr standing at the door he saw the troops and
:"aeliing—he opened the door. They, however,
4 ' 1,141 Y bY him and proceeded to seartchthethsee
nhnaussae
'''1100";'' vl"lent mann' • r. He told them tlra
Ore?',lsl' iri the house who had been recently confined.
ta:ttlieyhaghter.) He entreated thern.not to alarm her,
ha' tri•C`° no attention to his entreatsriewskand not con-
the bed and
IsC la a'N'elling about the
~,,lrli 1. „a niost indecent inarinrer.'m,(Rocrs of laughter,
Znt'4.le ,:;
ithet.continued at shrt, iindt—r,,rsys.als throughout the
) It might be a
t4atect f„0 1 Hon. Gentleman's address.)
e4.rtothill laughter to the House, but he assured them
i 'l'a th ,g nad on farmer occasions so much. tended to
f:'4lt4 04' :tihdgnation of the people of Ireland as the brutal..
4411 t f -"'
Part 0f the aniiii.,, and policelitoonwaGrdesnttin:_
t4t,e;'? '4% tti,hat country. _(A laugh.) '!
rbinstances of the
et:t44lt4 i" Proceeding to relate
Deere tvi,, 4 the county of Carlow, someho had received se-
o'lat,ihtoe,,,%°:°,ney of the Government, but his statements
I:41' the coughing
heatnd norse made by Hon.
Ito boa
'th
continued till oncluded.
hs, „eolo)et,`ANNON had laid some, countyreturns before the
of Car low,
4',D7niell it ,'"4 with the '"ate of
t"el
and previous to
ts„,• '"tther the Peared, that since Y
i Peeed'mPutuber of Whiteloojtuou:rages returned did
04,- till e•-: or 60. In December last there werehle Id 3 id
(It'YP4oar.' <0; ad in February, which return
he
was
t::,"'hen he last spike on the sulr,
rar aY there was some diminutron, name's, 146.
Itit!li ) 44.) Ti, were all serious offences cowing
146.
that 4 11,5
1. , These
of „,iiiret,,,y,sin. He admitted,,...
oil Pilain.,rillummarion w
verystrong, and led to.ottrrak .
rt, !),,,b ',,1 feellll2
11 1t1y,4 sides. During'a l st elec6on, a m-dical nitian
isil.t ,:iittee ti at it hethvemed for Mr. Bv,latekefintery,biot-,
his c, ffin. tie I: 1
ip.'tiqtlii' 4:Xetllnipgrbetphreewast pulled off his hor.e, and thrown
from the Irish Alembers.)
r,ttra ::tiver•—(lll-"' hear,
Dr. Doyle, and th
,`-ith4l'ttell also, that the it fluerwe of .
1%1, 'h'l' Pries•s had kept his criunt quiet till 11-cembt-r
, proved to
-jar ,Zthe fact of their exertions having filled
, kr : "tmely the neer ssrty for. increa.seu p Avers.
ti'l'ail. I,I'NNCEI Tr ratted that his Alaresty'a Ministers
''''' II
lie la • gilleeli to luting for •t and such a Inca.;
l'lC'Petliall en I"(
al 1 • Y Without
tilt actedinquiry, Why did they not ac
in 1819, when they ralled on the Ministers
NI day to , • . „. 2,....( Hear, hear.) They
tt,,n't thi,l, ~ Pr.ye their t a , .
4114,44. li` 4ve .ati.fied the i•num' ywt_bat
.t.be,);,h_ricl souse
D,,wati,a 'lt what had they done i.o e
C`,:itroyL:l7:
Loh,
'f.t4td°l t klktiny, Westmeath, ►
Queen's. i the 'Sihit-
ltdd'lt) :::,I'nk, and from the testimorm a o
ed
he
might
4Viig ''ll4l,'-,..stt°wn) on Friday haqs
MN' 4,4',;,nority, Were in a state loief.sr:liip-tpunisbance. But
their t‘ :41 'nd sweeping measure like this
rtoovebde
hiriapl-i
but „Ne, P,ttial ,vil, They had
.on y.p
of
o..me,
had ,0Y h; They had proved tic exist,oce i
t°l4,TlNti;* Nimeted that fact with another,llattenwipbi.ch
Peti.t" the t° do with it, without at .
0. t.'117.
exact4l;k tLee°nnection. The Ministers, insteadtotr lnot
St lb t'`)k it Lok, ought to impeach themselves for j
l'"V t Wirt 3,''d he referred' to the speech of the
tiodage-
haikaari /li°4l Assizes in proof of it. It Clare,
thel \l"h en i.di °''"trtrrion, the Ministry admitted that ;
Gal-
-° itZ lbty tuckUeeul in putting the law into execution.
tio ''st • qfice two • ra ago they found England.
~, aal , alstijrh , yea', then apply fir addi
yid the tiers ? eg, state ; dd the t
and wi y
th4t • 0y not • I\o, they put the law in force,
; Jahrie glve.it a trial in Ireland ? They complained,,,..
Aror, e Was
bt% 76 atter, i InTeded in Clorrmel. Why, out of 160 gre4r4ting dread( ' lel, and that at a time when the cholera
art at:ha IhellY, and the fear of infection was vet
alwaysy
tithe -:e when """lies, too, knew that they were _
coavitt!sea. lit'ea' did attend, especially in Crown and
riek,,ht'°nia,l°t even here they succeeded in obtaining a trials .4,0 a,4',,°st every ease. With regard to the Car-
lde‘,ta the -4 the facts
were that there were three
the Iliiiri i 4 11, "t there was a failure in the proof of
Xcelleni't thie. "I'ltry°°d the witness broke down ; and in
founded c'itatt gave 'Le accustd the benefit of a most
0° thit .!r• What argument then could be
IlleY Illight as well say that jurors

would not do their ditty in England because a jury
acquitted Watson. He sate no reason for superseding the
trial by Jury. There were reasons for strengthening the
existing laws, no doubt ; hut there were no reasons for
abolishing them. He contended that Hon. Member., it
England were placed under the same circumstances as
Ireland now is, would not vote for those severe measures
which were now considered indispensable. His Majesty's
Ministers were willing to extend their remedid measures
to Belgium, hut they did not appear to be equally anxious
to remedy the grievances of Ireland—a country in many
respects placed in similar circumstances. They had in-
troduced remedial measure;, it was true, in connection with
their coercive measures ; but they took care to give
the latter the precedence; and what pledge did they give.
if the coercive measures were carried, that the remedial
measures would also be carried ? The Government of
Ireland had hitherto teen conducted on a partial system.
They were now about to add another sanguinary law to
the long catalogue of oppressions exercised upon the Irish
people.
Mr. TALBOT should not have trespassed upon the

time of the House, if his name had not been particularly
alluded to by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin.
He denied that he had been actuated by any interested mo-
tive in the conduct which he had pursued. (The Hon.
Member, it was understood, alluded to the observations of
Mr. O'Connell in a published letter of his, in which lie
recommended the parties whom he address-d to take care
of young Tilhot, of Athlone.) Without further preface
he would enter on the subject of the debate. He was
compelled to admit that his Alajesty's Ministers had made
out their case, and that they had showed the necessity of
having recourse to these extraordinary measures which
they had proposed. There was only one pint stated on
the pact of Memb-rs on the oppi site side of the House.
with which he could agree ; ..nd that was the fact stated
by the Iron. Member for Kilkenny—that as crime in-
creased the number of commitials decreased. A better
proof there could net be of the system of intimidation
which had existed in Ireland. Misgovernment aft' irded
fond for agitation, and agit ition, on the other hand, gave
ri•e to unconstitutional measures of Government. At the
same time he would not pledge himself to every detail of
the Bill. He object d to domicili cry visits as a horrib e
ahuse ; he denounced arbitrary imprisonment as unneces-
sary. With regard to courtsmartial, if he (M-. Talbot)
were to be tried for his life, lie would as soon be tried by
a couttrnartial as by any other 'ribunal in Ireland. What-
ever doubt, however. he might have about predial
tun, no doubt c. u'd he entertained relative to political
aaitation, the object of which was to crush all individual
opinion. It had been asked by the opnenents of the Mi-
nter, rial measure, whether the Members who supported that
nieasure would support a similar proposition with respect
to England. His answer was that he certainly should, and
he believed that other Memlers would do so liltewise.
Mr. CHARLES GRANT said it had been taken for
granted (particularly by the Hen. Member for Newport)
that when a district was once proclaimed by the Lord
Lieutenant, then courtsmartial wire to be immediately
established. But that did not follow. On the contrary,
it was provided that there should be a gradation in the
degree of coercion, and that the uttniist degree of it would
never be applied until the inferior ones had been found to
fail. Domiciliary vi-its were first to be adopted, and if
they were successful there would be no necessity whatever
for courtsmartial. It had been an old argument of his
(Mr. C Grant's) that when a deviation front the strict
cou se authorized by the Constitution became necessary,
that deviation ought to he so distinct, and so e ell marked,
that no danger could ever arise of its ever bring drawn
into a precedent. If it were intended to make any en-
croachment upon the Constitution, the proper course
would not certainly be to make a glaring deviation from
its principles, but to make a slight and almost imper.
ceptible change at first, and to proceed by degrees to
overthrow the whole fabric. It was therefore his opinion
that if it were necessary to deviate from the Constitution,
the line of demarcation ought to be so distinct, that there
should be no danger of their proceedings ever being mis-

.aken for a constitutional measure. He, therefore, con.

tended that it was a wise and just principle, when it
was necessary to deviate from strict law, to adopt a
course so widely departing from the usual line of
proceeding, that it should be totally impossible
ever to mistake the one for the other. It was
admitted on all hands that danger existed, and he
congratulated the House on the unanimity which existed
on that point. It was admitted that a case of extreme
danger arose from predial agitation ; but the Hon. Mem-
ber for Newport contended that political agitation had
nothing to do with predial agitation. But what was the
meaning of that soft, mild term, predial agitation? It
meant all that system of crime, all that cowardly course of
aggression on unoffend,ng individuals, which spread de-
solation through Ireland. Under the soft and flowery
term of predial agitation, bad been included all those hor-
rible outrages which had revolted the feelings of this
House, and which a Christian country had rarely seen.
With respect to political agitation, its objects were not the
improvement of Ireland; its objects were inconsistent with
the integrity and prosperity of the British empire. Those
who were at all acquainted with Ireland knew that there
was generally in some or other part of the country a❑ in-
surrectionary spirit—.a species of smothered combustion ;
if to this incipient fire were added any additional and par-
ticular pressure arising out of the conduct of a landlord,
or even of a clergyman, the flame broke out, and predial
agitation began. In the present state of that country it w.is
impossible to distinguish between political and predial
agitation ; they arose out of the same elements, were fed
with the same fuel, produced the same resentments, and
errtp.oyed the same weapons, though, perhaps, of different
temper. It was out of the question to suppose, therefore,
that they should not mutually re-act ; and it there really
were no connection between them, vi by was credit taken

by political agitators for allaying predial agitation ?
(Cheers.) But to revert to the nature of the tribunal by
winch criminals were to he tried. Some Hon. Members
objected to courtsmartial, but, as had heen already justly
remarked, who had been able to point out a fit and adequate
substitute? Other plans bad been talked of, but, in his
mind, they were all more objectionable than the proposi-
tion in the Bill. One had suggested barristers; another
judges; and a third magistrates. As to barristcro, did
nut every body know that a strontz, prejudice would exist
against them on the ground ttat they would be anxious
to please Ministers by producing convictions? To the
suggestion for appointing judges, the Hon. Member for
Dublin had himself replied in his speech upon the address
at the opening of the session, when he ass, rted that the
people had no confidence in the Irish Bench. If such were
the fart, how could the Irish Bench properly carry the
Act into execution ? He (Mr. C. Grant) thought, how-
ever, that there tv,s another, and a much juster objection
to the employment of judges—it wa• that they ought never
to be cadet' upon to act at the ass;z s without the assist-
ance of a jury, and without the sacred and dignified ac
comp Aliments of their station. To altar this system was
without a precedent, and would ei rrairily have a bad ff: c•
upon the people. Tue third suggestion was, ttat tie trials
ought to be left to -he magi•araey ; but of msgismitis the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had also dispowi
11 the first debate of tt e session; and what owcries would
not be raised, it Ministers listener to this proposition, tot
thr wine the people of Ireland into the hanOs of th.
Orange magistracy ?—(Cheers.) This is as the very ev,l
the court martial wee erected to avoid. The Hon. Member
for Newport (Mr Hawkins) had made a fourth and a
still more extr tordinary proposal; he b di contended that
Engliso lawyers should be employed to by criminal•
for Irish murders. Such a proceeding would indeed
konne the national hatred ; the people of Ireland had
already been told that the English w. re their enemies;
and would it not be belt) out by the agitators—this
declaimets against the S.ssenag, —as the completion ut
he dekradation of their coutoty that Saxon Irwyets 11.1.
',et. broiler t over Lo pronounce upon the destinies i f the
Irish?—(Cheers.) The Right I-lon. Gentleman went on
to argue, that although the present measure might not lie
carried into effect, it was stir) n. cessary, and might he
most useful in detetting from crime; he believed tt.at the
attitude already taken by Parliament, and the de ermina-
tion shown to put down re e lion had struck terror into
the hearts of the agitators.—(hear, hear.) In his opinion
it was one great merit of the Bill that the employment of
it was lett to the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant, and
tt would be a praise to the measure and an honour to
those who brought it in if it were found nor necessaty to
carry it into execution. It had been said, that Ministers
were governed by party motives, and that they had intro-
duced this Bill to answer political purposes: It was not
by any means the first time that the intentions of public
men had been impugned ; but he ventured to assert that
the Bill rested upon public gtounds only, and that it did
not originate in sordid or p.rty views. Upon the same
principle the Betorm Bill had been introduced, and upon
that principle it had been carried. Ministers thought
that the existing danger, if not repressed, would not only
desilate Ireland but peril the existence of the empire.
Whether the Bill were received with applause or censure,
its promoters were resolved to keep their course. Mi-
nisters were responsible, and what they deemed their duty,
that they would perform, and with the blessing of God,
the Empire which they received from their predecessors
compact and united they would deliver to their successors
one and undivided. In addition to the approbatittn of
their own consciences, they hoped to meet the approb
lion of the general body of the iuhabitants of the United
Kingdom. Howerer anxious Ministers were to maintain

peaonal freedom, they wore resolved to prckerve the in-
tegrity of the empire, and to remain true to the great
principles which ought to govern British Statesmen.
Mr. LALOR spoke amid the expression of great impa-
tience on the part of the House, and argued that all the
accounts from Ireland received by Ministers, and which
were employed as the foundation for this Bill, had
been most crossly exaggerated. In the county he re-
presented (Queen's County), he could safely assert that
crime had been magnified five hundred fold.—(Question ;
Hear.) If an opportunity were afforded, he pledged him-
self to prove that persons had been employed to seduce the
lower orders, and to promote agitation, in order to form
a foundation for the Bill.—(Question.) The interrup-
tions here became so loud and frequent, that the Hon.
M-mher moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. COBRETT seconded the motion.
Colonel DA VIES said it was for the House to decide
whether it would submit to be thus constantly bullied_
(Loud cheers)—whether it would thus, night after night
be insulted, because Hon. Gentlemen thought they were
not sufficiently attended to, or their talents properly ap•
preciated.—(Continued cheering.) They were now ar-
rived at the eighth night of a debate on the principle of a
question, and the Hon. Member would further prolong it
because, forsooth, his abilities were not bowed down to;
thus neglecting the whole business of the House, and the
whole business of the country.—(Loud cheers.) Ile
could only s iy, if the Noble Lord cle,se to sit till that time
the following evening, he would stay with him.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR did not exactly know what the
last Hon. Speaker meant. He begged to say that all the
patience was on his side the House; tram it there had been
no interruption whatever—all was attention, calmness,
and respect.
Lord ALTHORP should have been exceeding glad if
the Hon. Member had b,-en allowed to conclude; but he
must sty, he felt it to be absolutely his dory to resist--
(Loud cheers)—any further adjournrnent.—(Hear.)
Mr. M. O'CONNELL hoped some allowance would he
tad tor the feeling It i•th Members could not but entertain
on this vital question.
Mr. LALUR would not press his motion.

Mr. M. O'CONNELL cnti'd not allow this Bill to go
Further than the second readlng without entering his pro
,est against it. In bringing in their B;11 on the subject 01

Tithes; in 1831, Ministers had brought in a Bill to create
dissension in Ireland—to excite disturbance and encourage
,gitation. The Hon. Member, amidst continued interrup-
iion, proceeded to d fend the proposition of the Hon.
llember for N..wpcirt, for sending over English lawyers
in substitution for courtsmartial. Hnw many of their
Judges had h•en English lawyers? How many of their
Chancellors? And yet there never was known to be any
irejudice against them. The Hon. Gentleman, who had
been listened to most impatiently, and •wag imperfectly
,eard in the gallery, sat down ami ist li•uil and almost
•intnimous cries of " Quit ion," " Divide," &c.
The House then divid d.
For the Second Reading 363
Against it Bl
Majority —27l
• • • •

A conversation then took place as to the day on which
*he Bill was to be committed ; and it was appointed for
Wednesday.
Mr. HALL gave notice that in the Committee he should
move as an amendment to the 9th clause, " That the Lord
Lieutenant should not have the power of interposing his
veto against meetings taking place for the purpose of pe-
titioning Parliament, and other legitimate ohjects."
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at half-past one.