The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-16 00:00:00

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religion would be existing and, flourishing, li, was at
the present moment the church of 200,000,000 of people.
On what ground of justice or fair dealing did the Vo-
luntaries unite with --hon. gentlemen opposite against
Maynooth ? He thought the voluntary system was a
pod one, and believed it was an ennobling principle to
see men associating together and subscribing their means
for the propagation of their own religion. (Hear, hear.)
But whilst he believed that voluntaryism was possible
in England and Scotland, he did not believe it was pos-
sible in Ireland, because in . Ireland there was a rich
church possessing some 600,0001. a-year, which was not
the church of the majority, but the church of a small mi-
nority. He did not think there were enough of Roman
Catholic clergy in Ireland. If there were more he be-
lieved there would be leas crime in that country. No
practical Roman Catholic would be found committing
crime. The Roman Catholic clergyman was obliged to
come into personal contact with every -member of the
Church, and therefore a greater number of clergy were
required for a population of Roman Catholics than for?a
Protestant one. It was true that Roman Catholic priests
left Ireland and'went elsewhere, but that was-owing to
the poverty of the people. But even admitting that the
voluntary principle could be. applied to Ireland he
maintained that the Maynooth grant was only a wretched
restitution of a portion of what had been taken from
them. It was unfair to charge milli° Roman Catholic
r( ligion the vices or crimes of Roman Catholics in
firmer times as Macaulay had done in his history.
(Hear.) He could retort the same argument on the Pro-
testant religion. The Roman Catholic religion taught
the same social doctrines as the Protestant—love of God
and love of our neighbour. The Roman Catholic people
would not become Protestants, and therefore it was bet-
ter that they should be well educated than badly edu-
cated. It had been said that as there was a Roman
Catholic University, there was no longer any necessity
of the Maynooth grant ; but his reply to that was, that
as,the University of Dublin was practically closed against
the Roman Catholics they bad a right to this grant. He
should vote against the motion, and hoped this would
be the last time that it would be brought forward in the
house. -

Mr. WILKINSON rose amidst cries of "Divide,
divide." He did not rise for the purpose of making a
speech, because he had a great dislike to public discus-
sions on the subject of religion. He was no admirer Of
the Roman Catholic religion, but as long as the Estab.
lished.Church in Ireland was kept up in its present form
he could not vote against the grant. He should, how'
ever, support the amendment of the hon. member for.
Edinburgh. (Hear.)
Mr. KENNEDY said he could not vote for the mo-
tion of the hon. member fol. Warwickshire. If that hon.
gentleman had charged the Irish clergy with neglect of
duty he could understand the motion. If there had been
large defections fromsthe Protestant Church in Ireland
to the Roman Catholic religion, he could understand it,
bat he could not understand it on the grotind upon which
the hon. member for North Warwickshire had placed it.
Was not the hon. gentleman aware that there were 343
defections from the Protestant Church in England to the
Roman Catholic, between the let of January, 1849, and
1855. The het included 3 duchesses,-1 marchioness, 2
countesses,. 4 viscountesses; 8 ladies, Learl, 3-wises:hints,
.3birds,,l honourabie miss—(laughter)-8 baronets, 2
venerable archdeacons, 85 reverends, 6 M.P.'s; &c.
He would not for obvious' reasons give the names of
these, persons, but they were open to the inspection of
the hon. member for North Warwickshire. A' greater
degree of charity might be extended to the Roman Catho-
lic religion by the hon. gentleman', if he recollected that
these. 343 persons who were well educated and in high-
positions had, from a love of truth, become _Roman Ca-
tholics. He hoped .he had a soul to be saved as well as
the hon. mover, and he hoped that he was discharging
his conscientious duty in opposing the motion as much
as the hon, gentleman was in.. supporting it. He was
sorry that the question, had not beefs debated as an
educational one alone. Was the hon, member prepared
to say that there should be no religion at all in, Ireland,
or that the. clergy should be educated abroad ? The.
Roman Catholics were the most numerous supporters of
the Irish schools. The number of scheols supported by
Romen Catholic patrons was 2,800 ; by- Protestant pa-
Crone, 154. The number of Roman Catholic teachers
was 4,690; of Proiestant, 341. This was but a small
branch of the educational question. He could see that
Maynooth had a right
,to be supported if they once re-
cognised the system of a state education, but he could
not see that any reason had been advanced why the
grant should be withdrawn.
Mr. A. DE VERE said he quite agreed that the
subject had been suffisiently discussed, and that it was
ripe for• decision. (Hesr.) The hon. member for North
Warwickshire, however had gone into a vast variety of
evraneous topics, and had put forth statements of fact's
to which be (Mr. De Vere) felt bound to give a distinct
denial. He denied that the Catholics of these countries
were disaffected to the Protestant dynasty now seated on
the throne. The hon. member for North Wareickshire
had put his motion on the ground that the Catholic reli-
gion was inimical to loyalty and to the peace and pros-
pects of the country. These were theological opinions,
which the house would hardly be prepared to adopt.
Nor could it be contended that a large body of her Ma-
jesty's subjects were to be deprived of their civil rights
on account of the hatred of the hon. member. The success
of the hon. member's motion could not secure the suppres-
sion of the Catholic religion. If the grant were with-
drawn every effort would be made to supply the den-
elency, and if it could not be found at home it would be
found abroad. This could not be done without agitation
and excitement, which would not be advantageout to the
country. But it would be absolutely necessary to make
ever, effort to supply froin other sources the deficiency
created' by the cessation of this grant. He did not,
however, believe tnat the house would sanction its with
drawal. He did nut concur in the amendment, which
would not, by any means, carry out <its professed pria-
ciplo of equality, while it- lett untouched the Church
Establiihment in Ireland. The house would find that
if they acceded to the nistien the- result would be a re-
newal of agitationesuf which the end weld not be fore-
seen. (Divide.)
Mr. DRUMMOND said that when his hon. friend
rose he had declared it would be rather a good thing if
they divided 'fleet and spoke after or not at all—
,
("bear, hear," and laughter)—but he thought that the
country was very, much indebtel. to his hon. friend
for haviug brought-the wetter under discussion. How
the vote went, .whether the motion was carried or
lost, was a matter eif very small importance—("hear"
and laughter)-e-but it was of very great importance
that this question should be discussed in the
house. He. feared his hon. friend would not think he
was doing him much service when -he said that as to the
whole theological part of his Speech he entirely differed
from him. It would give him (Mr. Drummond) very
sincere grief if the people of Ireland should become of
-no religion at all, as they did when- they went to- Ame-
rica.' .He thought that when the Irish emigrated, and
became less.nnder the control of their priests, they be-
came infinitely worse. He did not thick, however, that
the theological part of the question was one which the
house was competent to deal. with. The only thing far
them to. consider was, whet was the morality of the
teaching Qf certain gentlemen. If their doctrines were
immoral; surely itawae a fair question for discussion in
that house w.lietther it was worth evhile4o continue .to
educate such men, He was not going to give them his
own opinion of that teaching, nor the opinion of Protest-
ant legitation, nor the opinion of those who differed from
the Church of Rome ;.but they knew what the opinion of
Roman Catholic States had been, what the opinion of
the Pope hiniself had been. He supposed there were
very few gentlemen- there who believed that- the
Pope never changed his. opinion. The universal consent
of Europe proneunced these doctrines to be incampa-
tible. with the well-being of society, and they turned out
and supproesed all those who supported them. He was
not going to quote Liguori. He did think it would be
be very well if every Roman Catholic gentleman was
examined in Liguori, (Hear.) They had lately git a
fit of examining, and Liguori was the only writer in the
world of wheel the Roman C ttholic Church had autho-
ritatively decided that he had never written one word of
error. 'lt would be very agreeable for these gentlemen
to read the six volumes of bad Latin which did not con-
tain one word of error. (Hear; and laughter.) He had
now got some of it in English, and it, contained some
very choice morsels. He had got a little book, costing
only a penny, called, " What every Christian must
know." . Now, one of these things was, "It is a sin to
mix something with what, you sell ; for example to
!nix water with any :liqor, unless
.it he a common
custom or. be -necessary"—:en. what account did they
t ink t—" cr be necessary in order to gain a reasonable
profit." (Laughter.). had heard of a Catholic greeter
mixing sand with his auget';tttrt attributed it to
a chronic love of saud. Another of those things which
every Christian nut know, was, "It is a venial s:n to
steal a little, but it is a mortal sin to steal much—for
example, his day's. Wages from a workman, or still more
from a poor man ; if you steal half as,much from diffe-
rent persons, or steal at different times, or steal a little
often, it becomes a mortal sin." He had something more
—"To call God to witness anything is an oath ; but if
you do not know that what you say is an oath, or do not
mean to take an oath, these words area nullity." (No, no.)
Did the hon. gentlemert mean to deny it was the doc-
trine. If he had read Liguori he would not.
•DruMmond) believed one of the greatest losses the house
had.ever sustained was the late Mr. Lucas. (Hear.) He
was a perfect master of the doctrines of his church. In-
dividually he was excsedingly sorry for his loss ; he bad
I,ttle personal acquaintance, with him, but that little had
led to high respect. (Hear.) lie would like to know, had
any hon. gentleinau read the, chapters on mental reierva•
tion and a.mbieoity When they denied these doctrines
impatience along extracts and bad Latin. These were
they presuine3 on the ignorance of the house, and their
e Church at the present day. If there
out, all human society must come
?tf:etiLee was an innate principle of truth in
doctrinesttoiean nd doctrines;
wereb borne..
well as the Protestant—which would not
9lie. genAtslefaloratnhesi3r
all men's minds—in the Roman Cahh

Protestant principle he never could learn what it wa^.
There was nothing in their Protestant principle which,
Could not stand against tbe.orslaught of the Papacy, be-
cause the Papacy, liad one end from the beginning, to
bring them all down in subj:.4tioli to Nothing enabled
them to stand against it but the increase of civilisatiOn
and education, and the. community of feeling in all
honourable' minds. Aa long as that survived there
L• as no danger frona Maynooth or all their colleges.
He had spoken of -oaths : did they remember
t`.e oath taken before the House of Lords at
the time of emancipation ? The Roman Catholic
bishops came forward and 'declared that if the Pope was
to presume to take a hishep not recommended by them
they
would not receive him. Contrast that with what
113d:since taken. place. •He had long since expre,sed bis
opinion that the .whole queStiOn of the Church in Ireland
aunt be settled. one way er other in that bonne. For
his part he did not much care whethei the motion or the
amendnient of the hon. member for Ediabuigh was car-
fa,p„geptleteen might think it would be a great
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