The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-18 00:00:00

EAST j\DIA HoUsE.—(THIS DAY.)

(Continued from our preceding column.)
After a short desultory conversation, the Hon. Proprietor
gave notice that he would, as soon as the forms of the Court
would allow him, move his resolution.
A number of Proprietors then rose, all claiming their right
to be heard.
The CHAIRMAN said he acted most conscientiously and im.
partially. He called on that gentleman who first caught his eye.
Mr. TWINING having been called upon, rose and said he had
intended to have moved the adjournment on the last occasion,
but had been frustrated. He entreated the indulgence of the
Hon. Court more on that occasion than on any former one, for
the subject now under consideration was one of the utmost im-
portance. He was of opinion that the Company
had made out a case on which they Might claim from the
Government and the public a dispassionate consideration
of their affairs. He was sorry that they should have been
tailed upon to make by their minds in so short a time on a
twitter of such itnpOrtance, and that they should be told, that
unless they were favourable to the proposition; made to them,
they might save themselves any more trouble on the oc-
sasieh, On former occasions, they had been told that
they were fighting for their very existence.— (Heer, hear.)
That at the present time was most strictly true. He ap-
pealed to every person who heard him whether the im-
pression made in this country, and indeed all over the World,
by the conduct of the Company had not been one of brilliant
advantage. Objections had been made to the union in one
body of a commercial with a legislatorial character, and perhaps
some instances of inconvenience might be known to have
attended such an union ; but under its administration so many
things had been achieved, such a revenue had been gained, and
they had obtained such high credit with the world, that they
need not blush at having tor so many years appeared in the
character of the United Merchants of India.--(Hear, hear.)
It was not unworthy of observation to look at the period when
this great change was proposed to be accomplished. When the
cotton trade was in a state of great depression, the Company
imported but 12 millions of pounds of tea annually, but now
the sales amounted to upwards of 32 millions of pounds.—
(Hear, hear.) For every advantage given by Government to
the Company, the latter had paid largely to the to:tiler ; and
now, when they were required to sacrifice so many advantages,
what had they been offered by way of tecompense ?—(Hear.)
He thought there was an unaccountable disparity in the mode
of calculation which had been adopted by Mr. Grant. When
on a former occasion they were negotiating with Government,
he recollected with satisfaction how powerfully the pretensions
of the Company were supported by sonic of those individuals
echo were now Ministers, and he believed if he could single
out este from among their then supporters who advocated
ttre Company's interests More powerfully than another, it was
*Me father of the present Mr. Charles Grant—(Hear, hear)—but
he was sorry to 'perceive, that now when they stood in need of
all the support they could obtain, that they could not rank in
the file* Of their defenders the same name of Charles Grant.--
(Hear.) He should be sorry to allude offensively to any gen-
tleman ; but if he should have been proud at having the sup_
port of that Right Hon. Gentleman, he must be allowed to say,
that he deeply regretted that change of opinion which, it was
said, a change of circumstances had produced.—(Hear.) He
should have thought that the Charter might have been renewed
in such a way that all the changes now proposed to be effected,
might be gradually effected, instead of resorting to so great an
alteration at once. The subject Was one of deep importance,
and it was necessary that they should weigh it with clear-
ness and precision, in order to come to a proper de-
termination as to how far the Court of Directors might
feel themselves warranted in recommending an acceptance
of the propositions submitted to them. The charge of
the Indian Government involved considerations of such great
moment as might make them apprehensive, that unless they
saw their way clear, and that they would still have the power of
sustaining the honour and dignity of the Company in this coun-
try and in India, they would not be justified in accepting it.
The general impression, he was persuaded, was, that the Go-
s-ernment of India heti been an active and an useful Govern-
eurnt. He Was glad to perceive that Mr. Grant had described
the country (India) to be rich and fertile—to possess resources
not yet explored—that its people were patient, industrious, and
improving ; and that those were pledges that there was a trea-
sure in the East, which, under a wise management, would be
more than sufficient to meet all her expences. He knew that
the Company, who had sought for information from all quar-
ters, had shown an active zeal for the happiness of the people of
that country, and that they had—particularly lately—shown
great attention to their education.—(llesr, hear, hear.)
The Chairman of the Board of Controul had said that
many of the events that had occurred, particularly those
relating to the China trade, had arisen from time and
circumstances, but he (Mr. Twining) knew of no circumstance,
nor did he believe this was the time to justify all those great
changes. lie knew that at present there was a great disposi-
tion for changes of all kinds, but he warned Government
against effecting great and sudden changes where immense and
valuable interests which had so long existed were at stake.
One point seemed to have been overlooked by the gentlemen
who had communicated with the Government, and that was
the great alteration that would he made in the emporium of
London.—(Hear, hear.) What would not the port of London
suffer by the change ? It was the duty of Government to look
to the consequences of their propositions, and lessen any inju-
ries that might result from their adoption as much as they
could. Look to the immense warehouses of the Company--
look to the poor who were employed in them. There were
2,200 labourers who would by this dash of the pen be thrown
out of employment.—(Hear, hear.) On a former occasion a
petition was presented by the Company to Parliament, and he
did not see why the same course should not be adopted on the
present occasion. The petition in 1814 stated that the Company
asked not for an exclusive trade—for a monopoly, for the mere
purpose of common gain ; they were ready to become partses to
any arrangement consistent with their rights, and which would
not deprive them of the means of fulfilling their pecuniary en-
gagementa.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that if a petition were
now presented, it would gain them many supporters. The
renewal of their Charter had very appropriately been termed a
lease, and he should be glad to see it renewed its the same equi-
table way in which leases generally were.—(Hear.) There had
been remarks made upon the patronage of the Company, this
he thought a most delicate subject to touch upon ; but he re-
joiced that, .rom the avowal of Ministers themselves, it was in-
tended to recommend to Parliament the renewal of that pa-
tronage to the Company, in consequence of themanner in which
they exercised it upon deserving objects. No less than three
instances had occurred within his knowledge where the Corn-
pany had given a writership, and two appointments in the
army, to three destitute widows' sons. He stated this only by
the way of anecdote, but it showed in a most pleasing light the
motives with which the Company were actuated in the distri-
bution of their patronage. With respect to the guarantee
fund, he thought before the Company adopted the proposition
of Ministers on this subject, they ought to consider the many
hundred persons interested, who could not interfere in the deli-
berations, being infants, lunatics, or minors. He trusted,
as there seemed to be a good deal of doubt as to what would be a
sufficient sum to afford security, that this Court would take care
that it had one which would an►wer all purposes. He hoped
every thing would be done in the spirit of mutual concessions--
he did not like the term compromise which had been used, and
it would be remembered that the object of the meeting of the
Court was to assist rather than embarrass Ministers. He depre-
cated any measure which would lower the character of the Cern-
pany in the estimation of the people of India, and on that ground,
therefore, he objected to that part of the proposed plan which
subjected them to the interference of the Board of Controul.
The Company ought to continue its power over all their civil
officers, and be enabled to to call any of their Governors ; if the
Company were to be placed entirely under the superintendence
of the Board of Control, the worst effects might result. They
would then become a mere machine, instead of a great, opu-
lent, and powerful Company.—(Hear, hear.) There was also
the subject of retrenchment certainly that ought always to be
carried as far as was safe, but it might be carried toe far, and
in that there would be danger. He hoped that the discussions
of the Court would tend to strengthen the hands of the Direc-
tors, so that they might have the opportunity of making such
allowances to their defenders as was requisite. The time was
approaching when they must soon come to a determination.
There was one heavy impost that was much complained of—it
was that on tea. It was not put on by or at the instigation
of the Company. The fact was, that that impost put on by
the Government in the time of war, pressed most heavily
upon the Company. That was a proposition that could not
admit of a doubt. He trusted that with Government that
power which they unquestionably had would be used with that
spirit of moderation and justice which was likely to lead to the
interest, not only of the Company, but the public. He sincerely
thanked the Court for the patient hearing they had given him.

Mr. CARRUTIIERS would endeavour to speak on the question,
not only as stock proprietor, but as one of the British cemmu.
nity. He agreed as respected natives of India, he agreed with
every Hon. Proprietor who had gone before him, their happi-
ness and welfare was the first consideration that pressed upon
them, and was acknowledged by the Directors in their corre-
spondence with the President of the Board of Trade. It was
stated by the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir C. Forbes) that
the 630,0001. was the levying a new tax upon the people
of India; it was not so, it was merely a plan of the Govern-
ment to make thedividends be paid out of the assets, so that it
was from one fund in place of another. If the Right Hon.
Baronet were to sell 100,0001. of consols, and the Chairman
were to buy them, they might just as well say that it was
taxing the people of England for the dividends payable
upon them, as say that this was a new tax upon the
people of India. He did not expect that the doctrines he
was about to broach would be pleasing to those around him.
He perfectly agreed with Mr. Grant, that Government could
not recommend to Parliament the renewal of the Charter, as
respected the China trade—the people of England had made
up their minds upon that subject, and no Ministry could have
carried such a proposition. Petitions had poured in from every
place connected with shipping in favour of the measure, and
yet, though the Court had so often been told that the
port of London would be ruined, yet not one petition had been
sent in against the measure. He had long ago told one of
the Court of Directors, who was now no more, that one of
their greatest errors was the preventing of the British flag from
going into China. For all these reasons it was that he thought
that Mr. Grant was right in saying that Government could not
recommend the renewal of their exclusive right of trading with
China. It had been said, that when the trade was free, the
people of England would only be supplied with trash, and on the
other hand, the merchants of England were warned to beware,
for the Hong merchants would be very cautious after they had
lost honourable customer they now had. That caution came
not well from Mr. M'Kinnon, who had made, by his caution
and discretion, a large fortune, which hehoped he might long

live to enjoy. Did he think there were no men with as much
of those qualities as himself ? He would then proceed to the
last branch of the subject. He did not like the resolutions of
the Gallant General, nor did he like the amendment; he would
rather at once have seen a plain resolution brought forward
giving the further management of the whole further arrange.
Merits to the Court of Directors. The
people of England would
not come to compromise with a clenched fist but an open hand,
raying, " You have done so much for us, that though we must
now have part of your privileges, we will not press hard upon
you. He did think, however, that the President of the Board
of Control should give way to the Court on the subject of a
security fund for the payment of the annuitants, and that a sum
of ^ millions and a half should be the:minimum sum fixed upon.
Some allusions had been made about writers in India. He
had a son in that situation, and he had no hesitation in saying
that he got it from Mr. Astell, but on that account was lie the
less free, or the more bound to that gentleman. lie denied
that In anyway.
Lieutenant-Colonel STANIIOPF, said it appeared to him that
it was not the question before them, at least not the great one,
the trade to China, but rather what was the best manner in
Which the people of British India would be governed, whether
by the Government or the Court of Directors. He
was in favour of that power remaining in the
hands of the Directors, but he was still in favour of a
plan, which he had formerly opened in that Court, that the
patronage which they possessed should be put fur sale, when
he supposed it would bring in upwards of 600,000/., and why
should not that be applied for the payment of the dividends
He would show by figures that the Gallant Gentleman was
wrong In his premises, for under the monopoly system the
exports to India did not exceed one million, while under
the free trade system they amounted to upwards of
four millions; while the number of tons employed
and the number of seamen had also as much increased. The
Hon. and Gallant General was it favour of settling in India,
but it was a very singular kind of settlement ; he wished that
no one but respectable 'eople might go out—he might be
assured that no other class would go out, from the great ex-
pense attendant on the going out, and the low rate of wages
hi that country. The Learned Gentleman (Mr. R. Jackson)
had declaimed much against a free press, but his arguments
totally failed, for he did not seem to be aware that a free
press was fostered by Lord William Bentinck ; that it existed
in Madras and Ceylon without any ill effects. He did not ap.
prove of the Government plan as regardeddespatches ; they had
enough of power before; neither could he agree with them in
taking from the Directors the power of recalling officers who
did not please them. The Court of Proprietors had a perfect
' right to dispose of their assets as they thought proper, and
place them in the most safe manner they thought proper. That
part of Mr. Grant's letter was most casuistical arid
jesuitical. The Learned Gentleman had entered into a golden
dream as to the mariner in which the Company might carry
on the trade they now did. In his opinion the scheme was as
wild a one as Raleigh's celebrated South Sea one, and the end
f it would be that they would get into the meshes of the
lawyers, the fee gatherers--(A laugh)—as Mr. Bentham
called them, and the end would be ruin and bankruptcy.
As he could not now move a set of resolutions he gave
notice of a set that he was almost sure the Court would
join in which word be a gratification to him, as it was very
seldom he had been so honoured. They were to the effect, that
that Court approved of the abolition of the China monopoly—
that the Court considered that the assets of the Com-
pany were quite sufficient to pay both the dividends and
capitaf; therefore the Company was entitled to a com-
pensation that would insure those ends—that the security
offered by the Government to the annuitants, viz.
on the revenues of India was insecure, on account of the
chance of wars, &c. that might ensue—that so far from that
mode of payment cementing the interests of the governors and
the governed, the end would be directly the reverse, by in..
creasing the taxation on British India—that that Court was
sure the Directors would not sanction any measure that was
contrary to the principles of justice, and therefore it left the
further arrangement of the matter with the Government to the
Court of Directors.

SHEPPARD, Esq., addressed the Court at considerable
length a ainst the Government propositions, and gave notice
of a motion, which he would propose at the proper time,
to the effect that, to secure a source of remittances from In.
dia, so much of the assets of the Company as might allow them
o trade along with the public in the article of tea, might be
set aside as would allow the Company to effect that object.

Mr. RIGHT moved the adjournment of the Court till to-mor.
row at twelve o'clock, which was agreed to.

IRISH POOR LAWS.

(Concluded from The Sun of Yesterday.)

Mr. ELLIOTT moved as an amendment, " that
while this meeting deeply deplores the sutiefing that
pervades a large portion of the Irish population, it
tkes not deem it expedient to press the application
of any system of poor laws upon the attention of the
Government, since the Irish people themselves are
not petitioning for such a measure, and while a com-
plete revision of the Enelish poor law system is
wider the consideration of the Legislature."
Dr. MITCHELL seconded the amendment.

Mr. ATKINS..N had travelled through thirty-one
counties of hi• native country. Ireland, in order to
make himself acquainted with the state of misery in
which his countrymen were plunged. The plan
always adopted by Ireland's enemies was to show
that her imports and exports had increased. Bu',
he asked, what did that show ? Did the increase in
exportation do Ireland any good ? No. It was only
for the purpose of paying the rack-rents of the ab-
sentee I,ridlords that so many bullocks, &c., crossed
the water, for not one penny of the price of them
ever went back to Ireland.—(Cheers.) As to her
imports, true it was there was increase, but where
were the profits she used to have ? But, above all,
did the class whose case they were then considering
consume the costly articles of import, such as tea,
sugar, &c. In h's unhappy country there were more
miserable mendicants than the population of Holland
amounted to.—(Hear.) He was sorry to say that
even when Ireland had a Parliament of her own, no
provision for the poor was made ; but now, in the
seventh century of the dominion of England, the
introduction of an amended system of poor laws was
rendered imperative.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SIMOBRIDGE had accidentally attended the
meeting, but from what he had heard could neither
agree fully with the proposers of the resolution, or
of the amendment. He was then about to propose
a resolution prepared by himself, but the Lord
Mayor declined receiving it whilst there was already
a resolution and amendment before the meeting.
The amendment and resolution were then put,
and the latter carried, with only the hand of the
proposer of the amendment held up against it.
Mr. WYRE proposed the second resolution—
" That the anomalous state of the law, which leaves
one gre,t division of the UnitLd Kingdowi free from the
imposition of poor laws, and another great division sub-
ject thereto, necessarily causes the immigration of poor
lahourers from Ireland, wl:ere no provision by law for the
poor exists, to England, whose more just and umane in-
stitutions afford such support. That a distressing and
ruinous competiun between the Irish and English labourer
is thus superinduced, the market overloaded by a never-
ceising exce s of hand,., the rate of wages beaten down,
and the s'eady balance destroyed of demand and supply, in
which is alike involved the well-being of the labsuring
poor, and the ultimate prosperity of the empire."

M. SAULL seconded the resnitition.
The second resolution was then put, and carried
unanimously.

Mr. Alti;rman WOOD declared his readiness to
underthke the presentaticn of the petition, and to
give it his inmost support in the House of Commons.
Mr. PRITCHARD proposed, and Mr. TAYLOR
seconded, the third resolution—
" That it appears to this meeting that one of the reme-
dies for the intolerable burdens now pressing so heavily
upon the resources of England, is the enactment of a law
fit the relief of the destitute, the employment of the able.
bodied, and the suppression of the mendicant and vagrant
poor of Ireland—a law that, free from the abuses that
have crept into the administration of the poor laws of
England, may, tak;ng for its basis the noble statute of
the 43,1 of Queen Elizabeth, put a term to the disturb-
ances and crimes which unrelieved misery, and a deep
sense of oppression, now engender among the peasantry
of Ireland ; and calculated, by promoting the full deve-
lopement of the vast resources of that country, to give
additional opulence and strength and greatness to the em-
pire at large"-- _ _

which was carried unanimously, as were the follow-
ing:—
. _

" That a petition to the Legislature, embodying the
spirit of the foregoing resolutions, be now read."
" Tout the petition just read and ado.ited by this meet•
nQ be signed by the Lord Mayor, two Aldermen, and ten
eitiz-ns, agreeably to ancient custom."
" That a petition be presented to the House of Lords,
and that to the Commons delivered to Mr. Ald.rman
Wood, and that his colleagues be requested to support the
same."

Mr. GROTE, M P., and Sir Join KEY, M.P., ex-
pt:es,ed their determination to support the petition.
I be former was well received, but the latter with
mingled disapproba,ion.
It was then moved, upon the proposition of Mr.
KNAPP, seconded by
Mr. SWAINE, and carried—
" That the citizens of London, in Common-hall asoem-
i led, feel themselves called upon to express their unquali-
fied approbation of the Parliamentary conduct of their re-

pre_2ntitives, Mr. Alderman Wood, and Mr. Grote ; and
especially thank them for their manly and patriotic oppo
sition to that uncalled for and despotic measure denomi
nated the Jr eb Co.reinn Bill, by which t e constitutional
rights and libe the of their brethren, the people of Ireland,
have been destroyed.
Thanks were then voted to the LORD MAYOR,
and the meeting adjourned.

FASHIONABLE INTELLIGENCE.

INSOLVENTS' COURT, TUESDAY, APRIL 16.

Mr. Robert Mudie, formerly editor of the Weekly
Times, applied upon his petition to be discharged.
He was not opposed ; but, in answer to the interro-
gatories of the Learned Chief Commissioner, stated
that his insolvency partly arose from the failure of
the newspaper, and to having been declared a
bankrupt.
CHIEF COMMISSIONER—I also see that one of the
causes of your insolvency, as you say, arises " from
the general depression of literature."—lnsolvent
It is so, Sir.
Mr. Commissioner HARRIS, (smiling)—Then I
suppose that reading and writing are not so common
as they used to be.
The insolvent, it appeared, had received, within a
short period, 1901. by his literary labours. He was
ordered to be discharged.
The Rev. Henry Hatch was opposed by Mr.
WOODROFFE for Mr. Webb, the robe-maker; for
Mr. Bishop, of Cambridge, tailor; for Mr. Taylor,
a coal-merchant, of Mitcham ; and several others :
by Mr. Nictrou,s, for Mr. I lean and Mr. Lightfoot;
and by Mr. Mills, a gunmaker, in person. He was
supported by Mr. CooKE.
The insolvent had been formerly a Fellow of
King's College, Cambridge ; he had afterwards re-
sided at O'd Windsor, at Seal in Kent, at Exeter, at
London ; and, lastly, at Sutton, of which place he
is the rector ; the living is. however, under a seques-
tration. The debts of the Rev. Gentleman amounted
to 7,7001., and were divided among eighty-four
creditors, of whom nine are tavern-keepers and
wine-merchants, and thirteen are tailors. The poor-
rates, h'ghway-rates, the salary of a curate, and the
wages of a gamekeeper, are amongst the number of
claims unliquidated. It appeared in tie course of
the examination, that the insolvent had purchased
furniture to large amount of Mr. Morris of the
Strand, o ith which he had furnished his parsonage-
house at Sutton in 1831, when he came into posses-
sion of that living. This furniture and some other
furniture and property, it was insisted upon by the
creditors, should be given up for the payment of the
general debts, but it was claimed by the brother of
the insolvent, the Rev. Charles H itch, who is a
creditor to the amount of upwards of 1,0001., under
the will of an aunt, to whom the insolvent had
tteen a debtor for money lent and interest. The
Reverend Charles His,ch had taken a cognovit
from his brother for this debt, signed judgment,
and put in an execution ; the furniture was valued
ar 4171. under this execution ; it was, however, still
upon the premises, as the bill of sale had been placed
in the hands of the wife of the insolvent. A meet-
ing of the creditors had been called, and an offer
made to pay 4001. a year to liqudate the debts, but
it had not been agreed to, inasmuch as all the cre-
ditors were not present, and it was not considered
that ecclesiate,cal property could be made liable
under the instrument proposed. Mr. Bishop's de-
mand was 5001., arising from a bond of 2004, arid
the premiums of a life assurance for its security. Mr.
Webb had supplied robes and palls to his debtor to
the amount of about 40/. The rest of the creditors
were mostly per,ons in trade; their attendance was
rather namtrous.

It was suggested by the Counsel for the insol-
vent that the ease should be adjourned for a few
41,,r, in order that a communication might be made
to the Rev. C. Hatch on the expediency of with-
drawing his claim upon the furniture of the insolvent.
Iht: suggestion being acceded to by Mr. WOOD-
ROFFE, the COW t allowed the case to stand over till
h.- result of the application should be known, and it
was ordered to stand over accordingly.