The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-05 00:00:00

LONDON,

the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and the Roman Ca-
tholic Church in this country. In Ireland the Roman Ca-
tholic body, enjoyed the advantage of a long-established
system of church government, which secured the rights of
the laity, and of the minor clergy; while no such system
prevailed among the Roman Catholics in England. In this
country there had been a continual conflict between the Re-
man Catholic bishops on the one hand, and the Roman Ca-
tholic laity and clergy of the second order on the other, the
subject of contention being the unseemly and unholy assum-
tion of an authority on the part of the prelate which would
leave their spiritual subjects without the protection of
any law, and would free themselves from the restraint of
any usage or canon whatever. Petitions had been sent to
Rome by Roman Catholic Clergymen and laymen praying
for a removal of that anomalous state of things; but by the
recent bull the See of Rome had decided the question against
them. By the establishment of the proposed hierarchy the
whole system of canon laws was expressly repealed, and the
Roman Catholic bishops would be armed with irresponsible
and unlimited powers. The result of that would be
that the new system would become law to the Roman
Catholics first, and afterwards to the courts of law in this
country. Then they would have the Court of Chancery,
under the administration of what was denominated the
charity estates, called upon to enforce a Papal bull, by which
the vested rights of English subjects would be annihilates..
It the whole body of the canon law were repealed, that
passage in it which enacted that the donor of a chapel was
to be its patron would be done away with; and the courts
of law in this country, if appealed to, should acknowledge
the validity of its abrogation. Now, what did the Address
do? It recommended that subject to the consideration
of Parliament. And surely there could be nothing im-
proper or unreasonable in such a recommendation. He
asked on what ground did the whole course of legislation
of mortmain proceed? Was it not on the ground that
"undue influence" might have been exercised? Why did
they interfere betweon the factory owner and the factory
child ;—between the master and the young persons he em-
ployed? On the same grounds they should interfere in
this case. They ought to recollect what were the penalties
attachable to Roman Catholics for disobedience to spiritual
authorities in spiritual matters. They ought not to stop
with the barren and idle question of title; but they ought
to take into consideration matters of higher and greater
importance. They ought to deal with things and not with
names. He then repeated what he had said on a former oc-
casion, that it was impossible to have an Archbishop of.
Westminster without a hierarchy, that wan, without clerical
election. He thought that it was true; but events had
since falsified the opinion he entertained and had expressed
in that-House, in reply to the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Oxford, and he now regretted the deplorable change that
had taken place in the political position of the Pope from
what it had been in 1848. He believed that it was in the
discretion of the Archbishop of Westminster whether he
should return to England as archbishop or vicar-apostolic.
The Cardinal had preferred the former. It was his opinion
that for a Bill to be of use, it must go much farther than
that which Ministers seemed to contemplate. If it did so he
would vote for it; if it did not, if it were a mere Bill affect-
ing the titles of Roman Catholic prelates, he would vote
against it. He would also vote against any. Bill which in
connexion with such a subject as this should have relation
to Ireland; because that was a country which was in a far
different position from England; because it was a country
that had never lost its hierarchy, never had accepted its
canon law from the Pope or its delegates, but had ever re-
tained it from the days of St. Patrick. If a division were
called for on this occasion he would support the Address.
His determination was to offer his opposition to any Roman
Catholic amendment.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said, that during his public career he
had never known, so deep, earnest, and indignant a feeling
evolved as that which had been excited by the aggression of.
the Pope; and he must declare his opinion that this feeling
had not been responded to in a sufficiently strong and pointed
manner in the Speech from the Throne.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") He would not dwell further on this point,
but would wait—as the Protestant people of England would
—to see what sort of Bill the Government intended to intro-
duce. He hoped the Bill would meet the case; but, if it
should not do so, he would tell the Noble. Lord that the feel-
ing of the country would display itself with redoubled
energy.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord might depend upon
this, that the Protestant people of England felt themselves
placed in no ordinary position, and influenced by no ordinary
feelings. They felt that their highest and holiest interests
were at stake, and that they were determined, by every con-
stitutional means—in dependence on the aid and blessing of
God—to maintain those interests. He called upon the Noble
Lord faithfully to discharge his duty as Prime Minister—
faithfully to adhere to the declarations made in his letter to
the Bishop of Durham; let him act thus and the country
would go with him. If, as was stated, some of the Noble
Lord's colleagues were not disposed to co-operate with him
in pursuing the course which he (Mr. Plumptre) recom-
mended, led him get rid of them.—(Cheers and laughter.)
He believed that the country had no wish to get rid of the
Noble Lord, but there were one or two of his colieagues
whom the country would not be at all indisposed to dispense
with.—( Hear, and laughter.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said, that like the
Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him, he would abstain
from entering into any discussion on the important question
at issue until the Bill of the Government should be before
the House. He, however, was anxious to declare that should
any attack— come from what quarter it might—be directed
against the liberty of the Roman Catholic Church, he, in hie
place in Parliament, would—he trusted temperately and
constitutionally—oppose it to the best of his power. If
any measures of persecution—coming from any quarter—
should be carried through the House—for their oppo-
nents were strong, and the Catholic party weak—he trusted
that his co-religionists knew how to suffer with firmness and
dignity.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FAGAN expressed his surprise at the Honourable and
Learned Member (Mr. Anstey) speaking of the English
Catholic Church as endowed, and contrasting it in that re-
spect with the Catholic Church in Ireland. It was his be-
lief that the Catholic Church in Ireland was richer than
that in England; but neither was endowed, and, on that
ground, Catholics protested against any .e tate interference
with their ecclesiastical regulations.— (Hear, hear.) One
reason why the secondary clergy of the Roman Catholic
Church had continued so long without the rights which the
same class enjoyed in every other country was, that the
bishops who presided over them were not bishops in ordi-
nary ; but he understood that the result of the recent re-
script of the Pope was to make them so, and that it was only
because of the great excitement which had existed during
the last three months in this country that Archbishop Wise-
man had not called the bishops together for the purpose of
promulgating those laws, the absence of which curtailed the
rights of the secondary clergy. The Hon. Member who se-
conded the Address (Mr. Peto) had advised Roman Catholic
Members not to raise any debate upon the question of the so-
called Papal aggression upon this occasion. He (Mr. Fagan)
would have been delighted to follow the advice, had the
Hon. Member not, at the same time that he gave it, thrown
the apple of discord among them by his own remarks
(Hear, hear.) Ile begged to say also that, connecting the
Address with the proposition of which notice had been given
by the Noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown that
evening, he for one regretted that the Roman Catholic Mem-
bers, and the advocates of religious liberty generally in that
House, had not given utterance to a stronger expression of
dissent. than they had as yet done. He altogethor dissented
from the statement in her Majesty's Speech, that the recent
assumption of certain ecclesiastical titles " had been conferred
by a foreign power." They, had been conferred by the Pope
as spiritual head of the church, not as Sovereign of the Ro-
man States.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said that a stranger would be led to suppose
from the whole tenor of the discussion up to that moment
that the Members were a set of ecclesiastics, met to discuss
nothing but ecclesiastical affairs—(Hear, hear)—for no no-
tice had as yet been taken of any other matter. It appeared
to him that the House was not in a position to offer any opi-
nion epon the measure of which the Noble Lore had given
notice ; and, if he were to judge from her Majesty's Speech,
he should conclude that there was none of that danger to be
apprehended which his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Roe-
buck) had referred to in his very able speech. He begged to
say further, that he thought it a most humiliating declara-
tion for a Protestant to make, that, in spite of the numbers,
wealth, and power of the clergy of the Established Church,
Protestantism was in danger of being overturned bya rescript
of the Pope of Rome.—(llear.) But, passing from that topic
with the simple additional remark that he could not believe
that the Noble Lord whom he had followed for so many years
as the advocate of religious liberty would sully his character
by introducing a measure which would come under the de-
scription of persecution, he would call attention to some
other paragraphs of the Speech. He regretted to observe
that more than one-third of the Speech was taken up with
matters relating to foreign countries.—(Hear.) The time of
the Cabinet seemed to be much more occupied with the
affairs of other nations than with the concerns of our own.
It would surely be much better if the case were reversed.—
(Hear, hear.) He could not concur in the gratification ex-
pressed by her Majesty respecting thi fulfilment of the
treaty with Denmark. On the contrary, he saw with deep
regret the armed occupation of the free town of Hamburgh
against the united protest of the inhabitants, and the liber-
ties of Germany. placed under the iron foot of Austria, backed
by the power of Russia, and that, too, with the express con-
currence of the British Government.—(Hear, hear.) He
trustedu
n k now hern.
(I
eael
dhneered.Majesty'srie:rgnstruehgh.eagenen orHfideofct
subject Ministers
reoutirduneehbe thecountry
would as speedily as possi-
ble lay before the House the whole correspondence that had
taken place, in order that Members might be enabled to
judge of the transaction.—(Hear, bear.) He could net help
approving, however, of that paragraph of the Speech which
referred to the expected reforms in " the administration of
justice in the several departments of law and equity." He
considered the expenses entailed upon the country by the
Court of Chancery to be more oppressive than the ordinary
taxation. The extent of the one we knew ; the other was
prltenri
shaeuvytoodtomei
enohswhhstetfgaohi
eangdp‘taabrtrhhenteesl
idysoriheeferthatrelief
establishment
Englandpdttfelpuirenhnrocdteorelating
ihvi d
out, woulde followhe
either
i
n
abolishootteeofnods tosatohbomhpfeef
seeletyieCt
believe
oov:hteupaeea Court of
con-
tainedoaeon
pro-
posale
to..rwhefege Chancery(pjwaesr registration
pr,aaa,neemrt
fo:i
rnyhanhl
oppres-
sive taxationhear.)
itto'nahoorfgrtgote.ive3tveotil but be found
the Speech of her Majesty, or in the speeches of the mover
and seconder of the Address. He trusted, nevertheless, that
he might give the Noble Lord credit for the intention to re-
duce taxation, as well as to introduce a measure of reform.
At a time when the manufacturing classes were well em-
ployed, although he was sorry he could not say so much for
the agricultural classes—(Hear, hear)—it appeared to him
desirable to embrace so favourable an opportunity of con-
ferring upon that important portion of the community their
constitutional rights—(Hear.) He wished to see the Noble
Lord redeem the pledge he gave in 1832, to introduce such a
measure of reform as would make that House really and es-
sentially the representatives of the people. Was that the
case at present?—(Hear.) There was also the Bible mono-
poly, which he hoped would be abolished; for he could not
imagine anything more inconsistent than her Majesty ex-
pressing a hope that the whole people would consult the
Bible, and at the same time by royal patent granting a mo-
nopoly to keep up its price.—(Hear, hear.) He could also
have wished to have some assurance from the Government
of a reform in our colonial system.—(Hear, hear.) He gave
the Noble Lord great credit for his able and manly speech
respecting the colonies last session; but was there one of the
colonies at present less loud and just in its complaints than
before?—(Hear.) But, sorry as he was at these and other
omissions, he endeavoured to console himself with the con-
cluding paragraph of her Majesty's Si eech, which he be-
lieved was capable of including everything lie wanted. He
wished her Majesty would recollect what was said by Queen
Elizabeth, when she was asked where were the troops with
which she was to repel the Spanish Armada. "My subjects,"
said her Majesty, "are my guard. I look to them for sup-
port." Let her Majesty disband her useless and unnecessary
armies, and trust more than she did to her people, and she
would find her reward accordingly.--(hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP could not help attributing the recent
Papal aggression to the conduct of the Noble Lord the First
Minister of the Crown, and those who, he might say, were
under his command—such as Lord Minto, Lord Clarendon,
&c., who had given every encouragement in their power to
the Pope to take the step he had done. He regretted that
her Majesty's Speech contained nothing more tean the ex-
pression of a " hope" with reference to the depressed state of
agriculture. He had lately come froth a most important

WEDNESDAY

county ; and what did the House think were the feelings,
opinions, and sufferings of the owners and occupiers, as well
as of the ill-paid labourers who tilled the soil in that quarter?
If her Majesty's Ministers were to make inquiries in the
great city which he had recently quitted they would learn
something of the opinions entertainel with respect to free
trade, and something also of its effects. Then, there was
this new house of glass in Hype-park; that and the Exhi-
bition for the purposes of which it had been erected were to
be the greatest and most enduring monuments—at least in.
the opinion of its promoters—of the success of free trade.
They might call it success, but he called it failure. He did
not wish to see that building destroyed by any acts of violence,
but would to God that some hailstorm or some visitation of
lightning might descend to defeat the ill-advised project.
If, however, the proposed Exhibition should go forward, and
multitudes of foreigners were to fill our streets, then he
should say to the people of this metropolis—take care among
thieves and pickpockets and whoremongers—take care of
your wives and daughters—take care of your lives and
property. It migh be a curious matter to ascertain how
much money had already been fooled away upon this under-
taking. He had observed, that already notices of important
motions had been given besides that of the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government; but from the proposition of
the Noble Lord he araicipated very little good. There
could be no doubt that his policy would get the country
into difficulties, and even under its most favourable aspect
it would present only the appearance of advantage; it
would be a mere flash in the pan. Although those who
kept the _Noble Lord in office were sorry to see him play-
ing the part of Minister of a great country, yet they
seemed not prepared at the present moment to replace
him; but the change most desired by tie country would
be such a change as would remove the Noble Lord from
the Treasury bench ; but the Noble Lord no doubt would
endeavour to hold his place by succumbing to a party
which he could not resist. Of the Speech from the
Throne he should say no more, for though he enter-
tained for the Sovereign the profoundest veneration, yet his
feelings as to Ministers were those of,the most contemptuous
kind.

Mr. G. C. G. F. BERKELEY rose to call the attention of
'the House to that paragraph in the Speech from the Throne
in which reference was made to the " recent assumption of
certain ecclesiastical titles conferred by a foreign Power."
This appeared to him to be the chief subject under discus-.
sion, yet he felt indisposed just then to proceed further with
that discussion, more especially when be recollected that in
the next paragraph her Majesty was advised to say, " It
will be for you to consider the measure which will be laid
before you on this subject." Until that treasure came fairly
and fully before the House, he thought it bait to abstain from
saying much on the subject. But he should vigilantly attend
to the progress of the whole of that measure, and he trusted
that he should watch it in the spirit of a true Protestant.
At the same time he had no wish that the principles of civil
and religious liberty should be in any manner affected by it.
But, passing by those topics, he should now come to a part
of the Speech which was by no,means the least important;
it was that in which her Majesty was advised to say that.
.‘ the state of commerce and manufactures was such as to
afford general employment to the labouring classes." If by
that it were meant to convey an impression that the agricul-
tural labourers of this country were fully employed, he begged
to dissent from it altogether. He could say that in several
counties of England there existed among the agricul-
tural classes very great distress. But in addition to the
words of the Speech, they had been congratulated by the
seconder of the Address upon the prosperity of trade and of
agriculture. Now, he had in his possession a letter from a
high authority in Suffolk which left no doubt that there was
little ground for congratulation. He regretted to observe
that in the Speech from the Throne there was no reference to
the condition of the tenant farmers or, to the injustice inflicted
on them and on other persons similaily circumstanced by the
present apportionment of the income-tax. That was a
. .

subject which appeared to dencand immediate attention.
There remained one other topic which he could not sit down
without noticing, although it had been already well handled
by an Hon. Member near him—he meant the present situa-
tion of our colonies. There was no class of her Majesty's
subjects who were suffering more severely or more patiently
than the colonists, unless it be the agriculturists, and he pro-
posed shortly to submit to the House one or two motions on
those subjects.

Mr. GRATTAN observed, that the seconder of the Address
had congraticulated the House on the general prosperity of
agriculture and manufactures. Now, in a part of Ireland
with which he was acquainted, and which might be said to
possess some manufactures, the only sign of prosperity which
he could observe was the erection of one tall chimney, 150
feet in height, the sole effect of which would be to vitiate the
atmosphere. The people of Ireland were quitting their
homes by hundreds of thousands, and in many parts of
the country pauperism was increasing in as great a propor-
tion as he knew it to be from personal knowledge in the
union of Ceibridge, where the numbers had increased from
1,500 to 2,40 e. It was well known to the people of Ireland,
as well as to the whole of the United Kingdom, that the

Queen did all that could be done by the Sovereign for the
improvement of, Ireland; but the gracious benignity of the
Monarch was rendered of little avail by the ill-judged mea-
sures of Ministers, in which measures, as every one could
see, the true interests of Ireland were not consulted. The
Hon. Member proceeded to contrast the social comfort en-
joyed before the recent outburst of feeling with the heart-
burnings and illwill which it had engendered, and declared
that if he were a young man,
_he would rather go to America
and become a citizen of the Milted States than continue to
be insulted, as a Catholic, by such letters as those of Lord J.
Russell. He should move to scratch out the words " United
Kingdom" in the Bill to be brought in by the Noble Lord,
and to substitute the words " England and Scotland." He
hoped there would be found to be spirit and sense enough in
that House, when it was seen how gross a delusion was
attempted to be practised upon the country, to support and
save from outrage the sentiment of civil and religious
liberty.
Mr. BANKES said that before the debate'was brought to a
conclusion there were some passages in her Majesty's Speech
which the representatives of the agricultural interest must
think it their duty to offer a few remarks upon. It was to
be expected that the question of Papal aggression would
take the lead in the deliberations of Parliament, and he for
one did not blame Lord J. Russell for having brought forward
the subject thus prominently, and for declaring it a proper
matter for early legislation. This was not a question as be-
tween Roman Catholics and Protestants, because some of
the most eminent members of the former persuasion,-euck as
the Duke of Norfolk and Lord Beaumont, had taken the
snne view as be (Mr. Bankes) held, and he had lately had
the gratification of hearing another Roman Catholic noble-
man espouse with great eloquence the same side of the ques-
tion. So that if the measure proposed by the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government should take the character of an
ex post facto law, he should not be deterred from supporting
it by regarding it as a matter in which Protestants were ar-
rayed against Roman Catholics, because even in Ireland many
persons might be found who were acting honourably and con-
scientiously with the Noble Lord. Her Majesty, for the second
time in two successive years, had been aavised to notice the
agricultural interest as still distressed and as still deserving
(as he understood it) of the earnest attention of the Govern-
ment. In the Queen's Speech of last year her Majesty de
Glared she had heard with regret the complaints of the agri-
cultural portion of her subjects. It was thought by some
that the advice was not good or kind which had recom-
mended her Majesty to speak of undoubted distress in these
terms; but he gave her Ministers credit for believing that
this distress was only of a temporary character. Yet, when
after a lapse of 12 months, Parliament again listened to a
Royal Speech in which the existence of agricultural distress
was adverted to, although it was not mentioned in
quite such contemptuous terms, yet it was still spoken of
as temporary, and as not likely to be cf long endurance.
Let the Noble Lord ask himself 'whether, when the agricul-
tural interest was commencing another year with difficulties
still, he could be content to sit in the seat he occupied, and
put off that interest with no better assurance than his hopes
founded upon the condition of other classes of the com-
munity? No doubt the prosperity of other classes was very
intimately connected with the prosperity of this; but that
connexion was not of the same intimate character that it
was when, under the influence of laws now abrogated, it was
the inevitable consequence of the prosperity of other classes
that the agricultural interest should flourish also. The
prosperity of the manufacturing classes would operate upon
those who supplied them with food; and the case was al-
tered now if that food was to be drawn from foreign parts.
—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord must not complain of this
subject being intruded upon him when he had himself intro-
duced it again after the lapse of 12 months, in which all the
prophecies had fai ed on which he asked the agricultural in-
terest to rely.—( Hear.) Did the Government think it be-
coming to wait another twelve months to see whether the
"difficulties" now acknwledged would become distresses;
and if they should, to wait another twelve months to see
whether the distresses would become utter ruin ?—(Hear. )
The ; in the county he represented
were many able-bodied men in
(p o
(Dorset)
harvestet ) in
n some had beenp a
it
sunequal
there
the Workhouse, but happily it was not so in the greater por-
tion of the county. But we ought not to wait till utter ruin
came. The agricultural interest were desponding and
alarmed, and there was nothing in the Speech to lessen that
rhde(WLaosrd J. Russell); would that he
satisfied, a warmer friend to
were in a position to give them a fixed duty But we had
thheer e
Noble was n
Lot, o
a surplus revenue to deal with, and one class admitted to be
suffering; let it be given to that dais, and perhaps we might
feeling.
mingthan T
be a uniformly happy nation.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord had an opportunity of saying what were the remedies
he proposed for that class; and as the faithful guardian, in
inclination, of that class as of every other, there were no
hands from which a remedy would be more gratefully re-
ceived.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—l am rejoiced
to find that we are not likely to have a division upon the
question of the Address, and that that Address is likely to be
passed by the House, if not unanimously, at least with very
general consent, and without any amendment being
pro-
posed.—(Hear, hear.) I will, however, endeavour to id-
dress myself to the.various topics which have been touched
by gentlemen who have spoken, taking, for convenience,
rather the order in which the topics are mentioned in the
Queen's Speech than the order in which they may have been
spoken to. My Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) began with rather
a strange complaint, that it had been thought necessary to
advise her Majesty to make so much reference to foreign af-
fairs. With respect to the principal topic there mentioned, it
cannot be unknown to the House that the hostilities between
Denmark and Germany which were for some time carriedon in
Schleswig, were of the greatest importance, not only as threat-
ening danger to the peace of Europe, but also as interfering
materially with the commerce of this country.—(Hear.) It
cannot be matter of indifference to my Lim
Friend to learn
that those differences which have subsisted are in a fair
course of adjustment, and that at least the danger of hostili-
ties which so long hung over us is likely to be removed.—
(Hear, hear.) I 'cannot but rejoice myself that such should
be the case; and I hope that the endeavours which were
made by my Noble Friend near me (Lord Palmerston, we
presume) to persuade the contending parties-the one not to
prolong hostilities, and the other to adopt the tone and
measures of conciliation, have not been fruitless..—a Hear,
hear.) But my Hon. Friend immediately went on to say
that he thought this country ought not to have permitted
Austria to take certain measures which she had taken, and to
occupy Hamhurgh with her troops to act in a manner con-
trary to the freedom of Europe. Why, really that complaint
is most inconsistent with the former.—(hear.) If
we had
yielded to the former, no mention would have been made of
foreign politics; but, if we had yielded to the latter, we
should have been now engaged in a war with some of the
principal powers of Europe.—(Hear, lwar. ) Our course has
not agreed with either of those views. We have used our in-
fluence where we thought it might tend to the peace of Eu-
rope; and, in other cases, however important they were to
the general interests of Germany, we have not thought hour
duty to interfere in any way, but, at the same time, we can- I
not but think that the settlement of those affairs, and the
maintenance of a great power in the centre of Europe acting
in harmony, is of the utmost importance—( Hear) - and we
do hope that, while that great power maintains its strength,
the separate branches of that great empire, the various states
which form that great confederation, may find not' only those I
constitutions maintained which they have held now fora
long period of years, but that those constitutions may be
made still more favourable to liberty.-([[ear.) Such is our
wish—such is our prayer for the welfare of Germany; but
we do not consider oureelvee bonnd.to interfere in the con-

EVENING,

earns of 40,000,000 of people to carry out that object.—
, (Hear.) The next topic to which I shall advert is that to
which the Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has
spoken; but, though I agree in the sympathy which he ex-
Pressed, and advised her Majesty to use the expressions to
which he has adverted, I am afraid I must widely differ from
the conclusions to which he has come. I hold so far in
common with him, but, Igm afraid it is but a little way. I
should have wished that the transition with respect to the
corn-laws, from an extremely rigorous and exclusive system
to one of complete freedom of import, had been less abruptly
made. I believe myself, that if in 1840 or 1841 this House
had adopted either the measure that I proposed then, or
a measure similar to that which was adopted in 1846,
either of those measures continuing for some years would I
have prepared the agricultural interest for that complete
freedom of trade which now subsists; and I certainly
feel for any difficulties or distresses of the agricultural in-
terest, not only as it must always he one of the main sources
of the prosperity or adversity of this country, but likewise
as being of peculiar interest to me from my connexion with
the landed interest of the country. (So we understood the
Noble Lord; but he spoke occasionally in a low tone, and
could not be distinc'ly heard.) But, while I say thus much,
I cannot think—l should be deceiving the Hon. and Learnd
Gentlema❑ if I were to say that I think—the adoption of a
fixed duty in 1840 or 1841 would have been the foundation
of a system of permanent duties against the admission of
corn. I believe the progress of opinion, the increase of the
commercial and manufacturing classes, would have led, per-
haps before this time, to some such law as we now possess.—
(Hear, hear.) But, be that as it may, my opinion, de-
cidedly is, that with respect to corn you have adopted a system
which is consonant to the great interests of the country,
and, let me add, to the political and mural tranquillity of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) I believe that if, instead of pro-
posing in 1846 the abrogation of the corn-law. the Govern-
ment of that day bad endeavoured to maintain it to the last.
they would have failed in their object; that whatever ad-
vantage the agricultural interest might be supposed to derive
from the system which then prevailed they would have
failed to retain, but that in losing it they would likewise
have lost to the Government and the Parliament of this
country a great portion of the affections of the nation—
( Hear. hear)—and there would not have been only a loss to
the agricultural interest of the corn-laws, but a loss to the
authorities of this country of much of that respect and re-
gard which they ought to prize.—(Hear.) I therefore cannot
think that we adopted a plan at variance with the interests
of the country.— (Hear, hear.) I have never pretended to
say though others may have thought they had reason suf-
ficient, I certainly never thought I had to say—that a
particular price would prevail in a particular time. There
always seemed to me too many circumstances, too many
elements to enter into that question of price, for anybody to
perceive, certainly for some years to come, what the par-
ticular price of any article would be. I have never founded
myself, therefore, upon any other consideration than this—
that if there is a great manufacturing population, a great
commercial population, in a very thriving condition, and a
population accustomed to consume great quantities of food,
and if they can obtain it, more especially meat, and the
more costly articles of food, they who are close at hand, cul-
tivating the soil as the next neighbours, and in the
immediate vicinity of those who make this demand, cannot
fail ultimately to prosper from the continuance of that
demand.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot think that the agri-
cultural interest is totally to depend, as I think the
corn-laws induced them to suppose, upon the immediate
price of wheat in a particular month or year. It may be,
perhaps, that the continuance of this law induced the far .
mers of this country and the owners of land, especially in
particular parts of it, to look too much to the wheat crop
as the *source of their remuneration. Great changes of
laws cannot fail to be accompanied with changes of
habits and manners, and there will be a corresponding
adaptation of soil to circumstances. No doubt great changes
will take place with respect to agriculture. But, as my
Honourable Friend (Mr. Peto) showed, with a large
population you have obtained much increased demand for
meat, so that you find, I think in Glasgow, some 30,000
more oxen sent to the market in one year than there were a
year or two before; and that as a sample will show, I think,
that agricultural productions must be in increased demand,
if you can, by your laws, or rather by the abolition of laws of
prohibition and monopoly, obtain a satisfactory and pros-
perous condition of the manufacturing and commercial inte-
rests.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) talks of
this being the second year in which the difficulties of the
landed interest have been mentioned. If lam not mistaken,
in 1836 and again in 1837 there was a price as low as that
which has lately prevailed, and I think on both those occa-
sions mention was made in the Speech, or immediately after-
wards, of the distress of the agricultural interest. Therefore
I cannot believe that any law you can pass, any such mea-
sure as the Hon. Gentleman hinted at, would secure the agri-
culturists from occasional prices too low for remuneration.
I need hardly allude to cituumstances which at the present
time will influence prices. It has always happened that
when there has been a great dearth of any article, when
you have high prices, those high prices have been followed
by very increased production, and that increased production
again brings cheapness, cheapness brings increased demand,
and then you have high prices again. Now we all know
that in 1847 we were suffering in this country, and France
was likewise suffering, from the very high price of food; we
all know that then, although we were not blessed with a good
and equal harvest in this country, in France it was re-
markably propitious, and there is nothing I hear of more
than the accounts of the French wheat and flour reaching
this country, and the complaints of the French farmers that,
notwithstanding their protective system, there is a state of
unexampled depression. Bat the system we have adopted
must be considered as a whole; it must be considered as
affecting very many articles of manufacture and many arti-
cles of agriculture; and Parliament must be prepared to de-
cide, if the question should be brought before them, whether
this system is founded on, sound principle or not.—( Hear.)
Some quarter of a century ago. when Mr. Huskisson, was
introducing practically, and therefore ,somewhat timidly,
changes with respect to the duties on certain articles, he
took the article of gloves. For a long while nothing was
more frequent in this House than complaints that the manu-
facturers of gloves could not make them so good or cheap
as the French manufacturers; that they must go to ruin;
and we were implored to wear bad and dear gloves in order
to maintain the manufacturers of Yeovil and other places.
Mr. Huskisson persisted ; and the arguments of the glove
interest were not so powerful as to induce the House to de-
part from its resolution. What do you hear, after the lapse
of some thirty-five years? I hear, from trustworthy sources,
that the glove manufacture never was so flourishing as it is
now at Yeovil—( Hear, hear)—that for eight or ten miles
round the labourers and their families are asked to take em-
ployment in the glove trade; and those gloves, which we
were told could not be made so cheap or good as by the
French makers, are now exported to France, where they
meet a ready sale.—(Hear, hear.) I certainly cannot hold
out to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman any expectation

that a fixed duty will be established on the proposition either
of this or of any other Government. Putting aside any pre-
judices that mey be supposed to attach to the present Go-
vernment, I believe that any members of a Government
sitting on these benches would, when they came to investi
gate the question—to inquire what was the opinion and dis-
position of the people—shrink from imposing any duty on
the importation of grain.—(Hear, hear.) I don't believe a
ss. duty would be valued by the farmers who still cling to
protection in any other way than as a symptom of return to
the system of protection, and as an indication that a larger
duty or sliding scale would hereafter ba imposed.—( Hear,
hear.) But that expectation on the part of the friends of
protection would alarm all those who value the measures
now in operation.—(Hear, hear.) Every account I hear
shows that in the agricultural districts, as well as in the ma-
nufacturing, the great mass of the labouring people never
had such a command of the necessaries of life as they have
at this moment.—(Cheers.) The number of loaves they
could obtain, though there may have been a change of wages,
is increased Such was the general state of the labouring
population. There were exceptions in certain counties—
where wages may have diminished in a greater proportion ;
but I believe that, along with the power of obtaining a
greater quantity of bread, they have a greater remainder of
wages with which to purchase sugar at a diminished price,
and various other articles which they could not obtain before.
—( Hear, hear.) Many labouring families have fresh meat
that for years had scarcely seen fresh meat. Let the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, then, consider what a Govern-
ment would have to do who said to the mass of the
people, " You are now in the possession of more of
the necessaries and comforts of life than you ever had be-
fore ; but the system is entirely wrong, and you must revert
to the system under which the cost of your provisions will be
greater."•—(Cheers.) I believe that a great proportion of
those who are favourable to protection, though they may
think that system a wise one for the country, leave come to
the conclusion that it would not be wise for any Government
to attempt to revert to that system. I pass now to another
question, on which a great part of this debate has turned,
and on which there has been much discussion and excite-
ment in the country for the last three months. In doing so,
I must of course refer to the opinion of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), who began the debate,
and who blamed the Government, and me more especially,
for the part I have taken. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man said he approached this question with great pain • and
assured the House that he did not merely use the word, but
really felt great pain. Allow me to suggest to the Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman that his pain would be
diminished if he would not fall into that way of supposing
that some mean motives have always actuated parties
and the leaders of parties; and, that although they
may differ in opinion, they may have somewhat higher
motives than he would ascribe to them.--(Hear, bear.)
From his language it would appear that no other than those
very low motives have actuated public men, and that of one
party or another they have been influenced by some jealousy
or hope of acquiring popularity. According to his state-
ment, it would appear that when Sir Robert Peel proposed
to release Roman Catholics from the disabilities under which
they laboured, great jealousy was felt on the part of the Op-
position. This is a quite gratuitous assumption on the part
of the Hon. and Learned Member. We gave the utmost
support to that eminent stateman, who was then taking a
course we thought greatly for the benefit of the country,
anflie expressed a grateful sense of the support we gave
him. We did not take credit for any heroic virtue. We
wished the welfare of the country, and were glad to see the
measure proposed. With respect to the letter I wrote to
the Bishop of Durham, it was not to make political capital
that I wrote it, but because I entertained the sentiments I
then expressed.—(Cheers.) Whether rightly or wrongly, I
could not refrain from giving expression to them, or giving
publicity to those expressions.— (Hear,- hear.) Perhaps
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman may in future
save himself the trouble which attends that pain,
if he will take rather a more charitable view
of the conduct of others, and refrain from exposing
himself to the reproach conveyed in an observation
made by the great Prince of Conde, when he was reading
some pamphlets written against him at the instigation of
Cardinal de Retz —" These gentlemen make us act just aSI
they would act if they were in our places."—(Cheers and
laughter.) With respect to the question which has occupied
public attention for the last three months in a very large
degree, I cannot take the view of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Sheffield. Ido not doubt that he is sincere in
saying that the case is one of a mere use of titles, that it is a
matter of perfect indifference, and might have been left alone.
On the contrary, I think that, whatever may be the opinion
of Roman Catholics in different countries, the Court of Rome,
properly distinguished from the Church of Rome, is for ever
• wishing opportunities of making aggression,— (Hear, hear,)
—and not upon the spiritual consciences, but on the temporal
interests of the kingdoms with which they have concern.—
(Hear.) Some of the greatest friends of liberty, Sir John
Eliot, from whom the Earl of St. Germans is descended,
Pym, Hampden, Lord Somers, John Locke—all these men,
friends of liberty as they were, had great distrust of Papal
assumption and Papal aggression. What was the condition
of the Roman Catholics in this country? For it is repre-
sented as if we Protestants, and I among the foreamet, bad
all of a sudden teen seized with a rage for persecution. What
is the case? In 1791 Roma Catholics were allowed com-
plete freedom in the exercise of their religion. In 1829 they
obtained complete freedom to sit in Parliament and hold all
exceptions
civil employments, with some trifling
va-
rious occasions alterations were made in oexcelaws. On
all favour-
able to the Roman Catholics. With respect to the privileges
granted in 1829, this Government at least cannot be blamed
by the Roman Catholics; for whether
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