The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-28 00:00:00

send them into his own demesn of Lough O'Connell to cut

good pike-handles, and would not himself be idle."—(Loud
laughter.) Such was the person who was to teach the
Whitefeet a proper value for the law. He would give
another extract. After designating Lord Grey as a cruel
tyrant, and Lord Brougham as one of the most oppressive and
wicked of the Cabinet, he observed that " there was a time
when things were regarded with some respect; but for his part,
he cared no more for William IV. than a man in a tripe-shop."
—(Shouts of laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman quoted
some other extracts, and said that as the gentleman had deli.
vered, on a recent occasion, an address similar in spirit to
those he had formerly pronounced, he must stand the legal con.
sequences of that act.—(Loud cheers.) It had been said that
political agitation had nothing to do with the present system of
outrage. Nay more, the Volunteers were directly opposed to
the Whitefeet. Perhaps it was because two of a trade were
rather apt to disagree—(A laugh)—but no one could deny that
a strange mode was adopted for the purpose of impressing the
people with a love of order, of inspiring a horror of combina-
tion, and teaching a respect for the law, by inculcating the
doctrine, that obedience to it depended upon the orders or im-
plied wishes of lane individual. He would read a trifling ballad,
published and sung through the streets after the murder at
Cartickslough, and while the prisoners were on their trial. It
was not on account of its violence or brutality that he pro-
posed to read it, but in order to prove that there was a connec-
tion between the predial agitation and politics.—(The Right
Hon. Gentleman here read a long ballad, composed in a very
coarse, absurd style, in which Homer was invoked to sing the
praises of the Irish nation. The last couplet ran somewhat thus.)
s, And then will fall all through the land
The foreign and proud invaders by the Irish hand."
The Right Hon. Gentleman then resumed, and asked, did not
this bear testimony to the effect produced by the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman's speeches ? Was not this the denuncia-
tion of the Saxon ?—(Loud cheers.) Could not the harangues
directed against all of English blood be traced here ? Would
not the peasantry believe the necessary consequence of a re-
heat of the Union would be to rid them of foreign domination ?
Such were not, he believed, the intentions of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, but such was the result of his conduct.
Ite would declare, without fear of saintre -.7tion, that the ex.
istence of the societies now spreading in Ireland, and especially
of that called the Volunteers, was not only inconsistent with
freedom, but with ordinary security of property and life. No
law could exist if a Society responsible to no authority, guided
by nothing but its own will, should be allowed to teach the
people to despise and resist the law. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man then read an extract from a speech of Mr. O'Connell's, in
which that Hon. Member asked 'whether Ireland was to be a
nation or a province, and observed on the similarity of such
language to that held by illegal Associations before the Union.
He next proceeded at some length to quote and comment upon
some speeches delivered by Mr. O'Connell in Ireland, in which
the objects and means of the volunteers were stated. The scheme
of Regulators' Courts, proposed by the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber, was, he contended, much more objectionable than that of
courtsmartial, for in the former case there would be nothing but
local tyranny and unconstitutional authority of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman. One part of the scheme was, that the
Catholic priests were to come into the towns in which petty
sessions were held, and on the same day, for the arbitration of
disputes. The witnesses would not be sworn ; but a book would
lie on the table, and they might consider themselves as speak.
ing under the obligation of an oath. Should any of the parties
afterwards go before a Magistrate, there would be a way found
of bringing him to his senses.—(Hear, hear.) Such was the
consequence of the tyrannical and unconstitutional authority
which existed under the pretence of securing liberty ! Such
was the system of freedom with which Ireland was blessed!
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said, that the system
which his Majesty's Ministers were about to introduce, would
be extended all over Ireland. He forgot, however, that his
system of pacification was to be extended all over Ireland, and
that this peaceful country was in such a state as to require,
even in his opinion, armed pacificators. Their system would
not be extended, unless such extension was demanded by the
existence of a system of outrage, depredation, and tyranny, be.
yond the control of law. Their plan, too, had been much mis-
represented. Were they about indiscriminately to suppress
juries ?By no means. Were they about to do away with the
assizes, and substitute those military courts in their stead ? By
113 means, The cases which would be tried before these tribu-
nals were limited to such only as partook of the nature of out-
rages against life and property.—(Hear, hear.) As he was
unwilling that any expressions which had fallen from his No-
ble Friend should be considered beyond what he meant them
to convey, he would just refer to a question which had been
put to his Noble Friend, or rather a hint which had been
thrown out, that it was the intention of Government, in intro.
ducing this Act, to use it for the purpose of enforcing the col-
lection of tithes. He begged leave most distinctly to say that
Government had no such intention; that in introducing this
Act, they meant merely to apply it to cases of outrage or vio-
lence of an insurrectionary character ; and that in exceeding
the law, they should be wholly without jastificaticn if it were
not for the purpose of extending the protection of that law to
every denomination of property.—(Cheers.) To that he must
be allowed to say, no man—at least no honest man—could ob-
ject.—(Hear, hear.) When, however, he spoke of the protec-
tion of all descriptions of property, he did not mean any inter-
ference for the purpose of protecting civil claims.—(Hear.)
But he meant to say that the clergyman had as much right to
be protected in life, limb, and property, from outrage and vio-
lence as any other subject of the realm—and every clergy.
man should receive from his Majesty's Government the full
protection which was given him by law. There was one other
point to which he would advert, and with which he would
conclude the statement which he had made to the House, and
which he felt it his duty to make so fully and at such
length. He considered this uncons' itutional, and tyran-
nical, and arbitrary proceeding—so systematically orga-
nized by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and in effecting
which he was endeavouring to put down the free expression of
opinion in Ireland—had a yet higher aim. He was afraid—
and unless the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was prepared to
deny and disclaim expressions attributed to him in print, he
must believe—that he aimed at a power and a stretch of autho.
rity more dangerous and unconstitutional still ; that he aimed
at controlling and intimidating the freedom of speech and
debate within these walls.—(Loud cheering.) He did not
advert to the expression said to have been used by the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman at a meeting of the humbler classes of
this metropolis. He did not advert to expressions, which he
would not believe till he heard them avowed, could proceed
from the lips of—he would not say any Member of that House—
but from the lips of any man with the slightest pretensions to
the character of a gentleman.—(Great cheering.) He did not,
therefore, stop to comment on expressions which spoke of a
system of individual robbery, legalized by its being carried on
by the Members of that House, and to which no man who did
not labour under strong delusion would pay any attention.—
(Here Mr. O'Connell said something across the table which we
could not hear.) He was glad to find that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman disclaimed having used the offensive
expressions.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I am quite ready to state what I said
—Loud cries of " State, state ;" " Mr. o,Connell ;" and
" Go on."
Mr. STANLEY—What he was now about to call to their
attention was, what he considered an attack upon the con-
stitutional rights of that House, and which, standing there as a
Member of that House, he should not feel himself justified if
he did not call their attention to it in the presence of the Hon
and Learned Member himself, so as to give him the fullest op-
portunity of disclaimer or explanation. When they went be-
fore the Sovereign at the commencement of the session, they
did not ask, they demanded the free exercise of speech and
discussion. No constitutional Sovereign could deny or with-
hold that proud boast of that House. It was something too
much, then, for a subject to take on i self
the denial of that
which the utmost extension of the phrerogative of the Crown
could not refuse. He referred to the address of the Hon. and
Learned Member to his organized body of volunteers—a body,
it would be recollected, totally unconnec
sumed ted wit
ask the constitu-
ency of Hon. Members—in which he pre their
nions on the manner in which Hon. Members in that House
spoke and voted, and to demand the exercise of their infiu-

ence, and to call down certain consequences on those who had
dared thus to speak or to vote. This letter, which was
attributed to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman—he hoped
erroneously—was dated the 10th day of February, 18:12, and
addressed to the Irish Volunteers. In that letter he called
upon the Volunteers to make a good fight. That "to make
a good fight it must be strictly peaceable, legal, and constitu-
tional. Get every parish, if you can to meet, to petition Par-
liament against the menaced Algerine Acts;" for what reason,
he would ask, were the Volunteers to do this? Why were
they, the geueral pacificators, called upon to pursue this system
of agitation ? He then said, " Let not the meetings be simul.
taneous—that is, let every parish meet quite independent of
any other ;" and then he proceeded to say, that, " In fact, we
should in the abstract prefer death to slavery.—(Loud cheers
from the Irish Members.) You will see in the papers the list
of those who fought for Ireland." Now he (Mr. Stanley) had
fought for Ireland.—(Expressions of dissent from Mr. O'Con-
nell.) What ! did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman mean to
say that he and he alone was for Ireland ? Did the Hon. and
Learned Member mean to say that two opinions did not exist
there, or that a man might not honestly and conscientiously
exercise his judgment in supporting one side or the other
—or did he mean to say that he had already arrived at that
eminence at which he appeared to aim, and that he was already
Dictator of Ireland ?—(Cheers.) The latter went on to say,
" You will, I am sure, be glad to see the Member for Dundalk
in the number. Young Talbot, of Athlone, voted in both
majorities ; learn at once what the honest men of Athlone
think of this desertion of his country.—(Hear, from Mr.
O'Connell.) The two Members for the county of Limerick
voted in the majorities against Ireland. Is there no honest
spirit remaining in that county to call on the Gallant Colonels
to retrace their stops ?" Did not the Hon. and Learned Gen.
tleman call this interference with the manner in which the re-
presentatives of the people exercised those powers which were
their prerogative as Members of that House ?

Mr. O'CONNELL--Certainly.
Mr. STANLEV, when, then, he asked, did any noisy spouter
about pdpUlar rights, any frothy declaimer about popular liberty,
ever put forward so flimsy a veil as that with which it was en-
deavoured to hide a most tyrannical interference of an illegiti-
mate and unconstitutional power over the votes of Parliament ?
Could there be anything more outrageous than such an appeal—
an appeal not to the constituency of Hon. Members—an
appeal not to those to whom alone they were responsible
for their votes, but to a self constituted Volunteer Association,
which was to spread its mighty arms over the whole of Ireland
—bringing all within its grasp, and subjecting everything to its
uncontrolled dominion? He now stated the case at length,
but he trusted not more at length than the necessity of the case
justified. He had distinctly separated the predial from the po-
litical agitation—the outrages upon life and property, from
those upon civil and constitutional liberty, which were a neces-
sary consequence of the system which existed there. He
now called upon them in the name of liberty—as they valued
constitutional rights and legal privileges—as they wished to see
property, nay, life secure—as they wished to protect honest and
peaceable subjects against a system of violence and predial out-
rage—as they wished to exercise freely and fully their ever
undoubted rights—at once to denounce this vile attempt to
destroy, under the mask of liberty, every germ of an unbiassed
and independent public opinion. He called on them by their
vote that night to sanction the declaration, that they would
rather infringe for a time upon the laws than suffer all liberty,
all law, all constitutional rights, all security for life and pro-
perty to be resolved—as it must be, unless Parliament inter-
fered—in one wide gulph of ruin and tyranny.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SHEIL rose amidst tremendous cries of " O'Connell,"
and " State, state," which continued several minutes. As soon
as the Hon Member could be heard, he said at that late hour
he thought they could not do better than adjourn the debate,
which he moved accordingly.—(The cries for Mr. O'Connell
were again renewed.)
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to second the motion. He trusted
the House would afford him the opportunity of freeing himself
from an imputation which had been made against him by what
had appeared in the public press. All that he desired was
fair play.—(Hear, hear.) He certainly had read the report
to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded (the report
of Mr. O'Connell's speech at a meeting in Theobald's.road, in
the Observer of Sunday last.) He had read two other reports,
in neither of which was the exceedingly offensive passage to
be found.—(Hear, hear, hear.) When he read the report in
question, his first sensation was one of ridicule; he thought it
exceedingly ludicrous that such a thing should be attributed to
him.—(" Oh, oh.") He would state the fact to the House, and
if he had done wrong let them condemn him. He meant not
to disguise or mitigate one word, and he would readily admit,
that from what he did say on that occasion, he was not at all
surprised at the mistakes which the Reporter had fallen into.
—(Hear.) He did say enough to lead him into that mistake.
The object in his mind was those Bills, and he was speaking of
universal suffrage, and the injustice, on constitutional prin-
ciples, of any man being taxed who was not represented. He
said that the injustice from individuals might be punished by
law, but that no punishment could be inflicted if that injustice
were carried into execution by 600. He then went on, as was not
uncommon in speaking, to further illustrate his position, but
without intending any connection between them, to say, that if
one scoundrel attempted to rob you, you might resist min by
physical force, but if 600 did so, then you could not resist them.
—(Oh I oh I followed by loud murmurs, which at times rendered
it difficult to hear the observations of the Hon. Gentleman.)
They might condemn it ; and in his cool moments he certainly
I would have taken care so to have expressed himself as to have
avoided all possibility of mistake. In the heat of speakinig—it
was not unfrequent to fall into mistakes.—(Oh !oh 1) He now,
in that House, re-asserted both the things which he
had then said. He asserted in that House, that you
might resist and punish one person, who meant to
rob you, but that you cannot punish the Legislature
that robs you. He asserted, as he then said, that you may
resist one scoundrel, but that you cannot resist 600.—(Mur.
murs.) He did not know, from the manner in which the
House then received him, that he ought to condescend to add
his regret for any expressions which had fallen from him, and
which might be deemed offensive; but, for his own sake, it
was necessary to say, that he could not have intended to apply
that epithet to the Members of that House. He must have
included himself in the number. He did certainly make the
observations which he had already stated, and he considered
the reporter was quite excusable, seeing, as he did, the ten-
dency which his words might be construed to have. He begged
most solemnly to assure the House, that he had not the slightest
intention in any expressions of which he made use, of speak.
ing in a manner derogatory of that House.—(Oh, oh !)
The motion for adjournment was then agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at a quarter to two.