The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-05 00:00:00

PERIA LPA Li.% 31 ENT

THIS DAY, FRIDAY, JULY 5.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

On entering the gallery at the usual hour, we found abou
fifty Members in the House.

Mr. M. O'FERRALL presented petitions from Killahogh,
Carlow, and other places, complaining of the existing Acts for
the commutation of tithes.

Mr. COBBETT took the opportunity of saying that the
House now met at something like a reasonable time of the day.
At the beginning of the session a proposition for early meetings
was made from his side of the House, but was met by a threat
that if persisted in an order would be obtained to prevent the
adjournment of the House.—(Hear.)
On the motion that the order of the day on the Church
Temporalities (Ireland) Bill should be read,
Mr. ROEBUCK made some observations relative to the
propriety of extending the inquiries of the Committee on the
petition relative to the conduct of the police, in consequence
(as Was understood) of the evidence and verdict on the trial
49 f Fursey.

Mr. HAWES was understood to say that the Committee
had already sufficient labour before it.
Lord ALTHORP replied, but the firing of a salute on
the passing of an aquatic procession, which had also
interrupted the preceding Members, prevented us from
understanding further than that if on proceeding with
the business before it, the Committee should find it
necessary to have an extension of powers, it would then be_
'come a proper matter for the consideration and perhaps the
adoption of the louse.
Mr. KILLER wished to be informed what arrangements
Would be made with respect to Committees, of which there
Were several sitting, whilst the meetings of the Housevere
continued in the morning
Lord ALTHORP could not say how the inconvenience
e'avo
C° hided for the present.
The House then went into Committee on the Irish Church
Temporalities Bill.
bn the motion that the 50th clause for reducing the income
of the Bishopric of Derry to 6,000/.,
Mr. SHEIL asked what additional patronage was proposed
to be added to the Bishopric of Derry, and the amount that
would be derived from such patronage.
Mr. STANLEY said there were returns on the table showing
the number of benefices, but the value he could not state.
Sir It. INGLIS said, that however opposed he might be to
the principles and details of the Bill, still he would say there
Was one point on which he considered his Majesty's Govern- -
ment had taken a very disinterested part, for they might have
taken all this patronage to their own disposal.
The Clause was then agreed to, as were also the Clauses
from 51 to 58.
On the motion that clause 59 do stand part of the Bill,
Mr. LYNCH proposed as an amendment, that the Com-
missioitets should be enforced to keep separate accounts of the
Ptteceds from the different descriptions of property that might
Come under their management.
Mr. STANLEY did not apprehend there could be any ob-
jection to the introduction of that amendment.
Mr. LEFROY thought that the Hon. Member for Galway
,w,the ished b
insertion of that amendment to lay a founds-
. 4 ,for an argument as to the appropriation of that property

After a short conversation, Mr. LYNCH agreed to with_
draw his amendment, Mr. STANLEY consenting that words to
the same effect should be introduced into another part of
the

Clause 60 was agreed to without amendments.
cclause 61, Mr. O'CONNELL proposed to leave out some
lan r 43, for the purpose of substituting others, in effect to de_
o any assessment or rate by any vestry for any church
Purpose totally void, without the necessity of quashing the
same by appeal.—The amendment was agreed to.
Clauses 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 7..2, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79,
servati
8'). 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86,87, and 88, were agreed to without ob.
on or amendment.
141% FINN proposed that a clause should be introduced be.
88 and 89, to the effect, that in all cases in which the
value
of a benefice shall amount to the sum of 5001., the salary
` the curate employed by the rector shall not be less than
801•, to be paid out of said benefice.
Dr. LUSHINGTON said the clause would defeat its own ob.
Jett. Where the incumbent was under no legal obligation to
"nPIoY a curate, the inevitable censequence of this provision
Would be to make him altogether dispense with the services of
a Curate ; the services of the Church would thereby be worse
Performed, and the curates left altegether unemployed.—_
(hear, hear, hear.) The clause would defeat its purpose and
deteriorate the condition of the working clergy instead of im-
Proving it.

Mr. SHEIL considered 400/. sufficient where the benefice
amounted to 500/. for the
curate with a family insupportte of the incumbent, while 100/_
was little enough for the maintenance n nance of an educated gentle_
suitable respectability. 400/.
rio
Was Considered " a peculiar Godsend" in the Scotch Church
—a
church which, although he differed from it in doctrine, he
and i
esteented. Particularly apostolic in its pecuniary circumstances ;
, n order to save the working clergy of the church of Ire-
ltradt from ecclesiastical pauperism, it was necessary, he thought,
ionic minimum should be fixed by Parliament as compen-
sation for the curates.
ts, 14r. STANLEY and Mr. SHAW thought the only effect of the
r`'ianse would be to prevent the curates from being at all em.
°Yed i and the evil which the Learned Gentleman wished to
esse ld be most materially increased.
Colonel PER.CEVAL objected to the clause.
nrMr• J, GRATTAN thought that a great many of the evil:.
,-; the church of Ireland arose from the non-residence o
''ergYnien.
th INir' STANLEY trusted that Hon. Members would keep
w e Ares
ent, and the question of non-residence, separate
, 48 the intention of Ministers to introduce a measure
nn the th.next session to regulate nonresidents and pluralities,
land''' measure would be equally applicable to England and Ire_
,
distress
to said that the curates in Ireland were in a moste
cOindition, and he considered it the duty of the House
Sir
take he ease unto coiasideration.
1 ;ir H.TSSE'Y VIVIAN admitted that the curates of
drisetnatend were in a most distressed state, but he believed that
bein " chiefly to arise in consequence of the incumbents not
DrB pe to receive their tithes.
port the ALD WIN thought if Hon. Members wished to suP,';
the clau credit of the Establised Church they would agree t -p. 113Perary.-se that had been proposed by the Hon. Member for
Sir k ,
would h, ','• RIDLEY thought that the clause proposedaii
that it hay a contrary effect to that which was intended,
it was ;_•'. would be productive of the greatest injury to those
mcn.tended to benefit.
curatesSHAW said that he believed it to be the wish of the
interfere f Ireland generally, that the House would not
Thebetween them and their rectors.
there galterif was then cleared, and the House divided, when
Pa4Ptt''ltred---
e introductiof the Clause 35
Against it
I,4lajci:rity a..g.a. on
130
iii. .... . ;he. ****************** ****** **
of the Clause —lO3
On our cactis consequently lost.
SHE[ n 8 the gallery, we found
itahmlaeAcoo,thSileEi n his legs, moving the following addition to
twherae sti-,----" That no such augmentation should take
'e Members of the Established Church did not
nn to 300 at „
Mr. piltle, ` 1•le least."
, Lord A T„,"' Objected to, the amendment.
Intolnto et 'n,LHORP thought it would be impossible to carry
treet the object of the Hon. Member's amendment from
Pa • lincUlty of ascertaining the number of Protestant
rishoners in aparish
a ,14„ r• 84EIL couldp not see how it would be difficult to
Bii-`rtain the number of Protestant parishioners in a parish. 1,/ ell, the shepherd ought to know his own sheep.—(Hear.)
e b°Ped the Hon. Member would change his mind upon this,
Lts he
t...had done upon other occasions.
mind
8° ALTHORP said, that when he had changed his mind
tip',.! anY subject before the House, it was because he had seen
t'ilitkl reason to do so.—(Hear.) But such was not the case in
',Present instance.
~kii, 4 amendment was then negatived without a division.
i,-,-'4uses 90 up to 100 were agreed to, with occasional verbal
4 ''endrnentS.
, .I'° clause 101, upon the motion of Mr. SHAW, was added
not kept' that in cases where the chancels of churches were
kTghiLtebPet in TePair by the lay impropriators of tithes, they
teary sr eetopelled to put them in repair by petition in a sum.
Clauses la the Commissioners, Courts of Law, &c.
Very triirs I°2
to 113 were then respectively agreed to, with
,_ l4' verbal amendments.
in 'e
theeclaos 114, Mr SHAW moved as an amendment, that
ea3e C •• -0 any ben emniissioners suspend the appointment of a clerk
At three ence
intermitted
shall Divine Service shall have been
shall he Zear.s,the emolument of such benefice during thevacancy
Celebrationed for the purpose of providing the means of the
'-eiriberb °f
divi" service within such benefice. The Hon.
PIT
Lord
Ariefly stated his reasons.
cret
nt,LTHORP thought it ought to be left to the dis_
circuohta_the Commissioners to apply the proceeds to other
~,,,,,
derivneedes than to the immediate benefices from which they
Mr. 4.4 •
I,l"etlY wirlr,,Wettld appeal to the Noble Lord to say, con_
.01111,t
Zany o
principles which he had professed on
Propriated to ns. whether these funds were to be ap
pilePUrposes wh. 4nY other pu ose than to provide for those
ti teh had h rP
could the Thad beery specified. With what reason or
°ther purposes than Of those parishes be appropriated to any
Vtith the parisile, Ist these which were immediately connected
'the STANLEY which the funds had been so derived.
°I the most . thought the amendment was one
)f.-- extraordi
,finds Hear, hear.) if nary nature he ever heard
in any way, thetolause
etheY were required to appropriate the
0 their discretion
posing
it thought it was inn
an gave them full power, leaving it
. d° 80, if they were not required
ntopriate the fund extraordinary duty on them, t•
,_ kr, D to purposes which were not required.
'otl increases.°llWlSTE denied that the Protestants of Ireland
ter some I the last half century nearly double.
sonie
4"AmARA observations from Mr. O'CONNELL, Major
kir _ . , and Colonel rERCIVAL, the amendment was ne-
,thed without a division.
st e ' CHAIRMAN reported progress, and begged leave to
gain
Th, •
House then adjourned till Ave o'clock.