The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-08 00:00:00

exceptions—any case not excepted comes of course more
stronely within the general rule, and this is not an ex-
cepted case.—(Cheers.)
The SPEAKER —What are the excepted cases ?
Mr. O'CONNELL—The excepted cases are, the giving
evidence in criminal cases, the being upon juries, and the
holding of emolumentary offices under the Crown. Now
certainly this is no office under the Crown. The Com-
mittee is not a jury; nor is it a criminal case that is to
come before it. I therefore beg to move that the affirma
Lion of the Hon. Member for Durham be received instead
of his oath.
The SPEAKER—I am persuaded that no Member in
the House, not even the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
who has just addressed it, will conceive that I was
improperly actuated in bringing this matter -forward.—
(Cheers.) lam sure be will pardon me, also, for my,
perhaps, rather disorderly call upon him to state the ex-
ceptions. Of course the third exception, that preventing
the affirmation of Quakers being taken upon entering
into any office of emolument under the Crown never
came across my mind. What did occur to me was.
whether it was possible any analogy might be thought to
exist between this case and that of serving upon juries,
or giving evidence in criminal cases. The Hon. Member
is of opinion, and probably the House will he of opinion,
that the case before us comes within neither exception ;
but, looking to the criminal consequences that might
occur to parties interested, I felt it to be my duty to bring
the fact before the House.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—I trust the Chair did not so mis-
understand me, as to suppose I could say any thing that
did not recognise, I hardly like to say, the propriety,
for it is too weak a word, of its interference ; for
I felt, in common with every Member of the House,
that what was done by the Speaker was per-
fectly consistent with the whole course of his con-
duct. It is impossible to doubt the fitness of his
calling the particular attention of the House to this case,
being the first of its arising. I have now the Act of Par.
liament, containing the exceptions belore the House, and
I find them to be what I stated. Having allowed the
Hon. Member to make the affirmation on becoming
a Member of this House, it would be an anomaly
indeed, for the House to decide that more than his
affirmation should be required of him to discharge one of
its incidental duties.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the anomaly might
exist, and require to be removed by an Act of Parlia-
ment. He did not think the decision they had come
to in the former case necessarily governed this. which
rested upon an Act of Parliament pissed subsequently to
the Quakers' Relief Act. He considered, however, that
this Committee did not come within either of the three
exceptions in that Act, and that, therefore, the Hon.
Gentleman might be allowed to make his affirmation.
Mr. GODSON read the clause in the Act of Parlia-
ment, providing for the admission of the affirmation of
Quakers, and stated his opinion to be that the affirmation
of the Hon. Member in the present instance came under
that permissive clause.
Lord MORPETH was understood to say that he had
a notice on the books which he trusted would remove all
difficulties like the present.
Mr. J. JERVIS said, he knew that Quakers were ad-
mitted on Juries to try civil cases; indeed he knew an
instance of a Quaker having been on a jury, which con-
victed a person of a capital felony, and the man was
executed.
Lard ALTHORP thought that as the House had al-
ready decided that the Act of Parliament did not prevent
Quakers from taking their seats in the House, the same
rule should apply in the present instance.—(Hear.)
The SPEAKER said that he had only done what he
conceived to be his duty in culling the attention of the
House to the subject.—(Hear.) As the House seemed
to feel so strongly and to concur so unanimously in the
reception of the Hon. Member's affirmation, he would
suggest that the affirmation be received with the consent
of the House, but without the formality of putting the
motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr.
O'Connell.)
Mr. O'CONNELL, with that understanding, withdrew
his motion.
Mr. Pease's affirmation having been accepted, and
the oath having been taken by the other ten Members, the
Committee withdrew.
On the motion of Sir G. PHILLIPS, the Bill to en-
able the Stratford and Moreton Railway Company to make
a new line, was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Mr. lIODGES, the amendments
made in the Committee to the London and Greenwich
Railway Bill were read a second time.
The Ross and Abergavenny Road Bill was read a third
time and passed.
WARWICK ELECTION.
Mr. RHODES appeared at the bar, with a list of the
following Members who had been ballotted to form a
Committee to try the merits of a petition against the le-
turn for the borough of Warwick :—Ellis Cutiliffe Lester,
Christopher Thomas Tower, Hon. John James Knox,
Sir John Hamilton Dalrymple, Lord Arthur Marcus Cecil
Hill, Lord Viscount Molyneux, Thomas Hutchinson
Stavely, Hon. Charles Langley, William Tattoo Egerton,
and Sir Ronald Crauford Ferguson. Having been sworn,
they withdrew.
A message from the Lords announced that their Lord-
ships had given their assent to certain private Bills.
Sir R. INGLIS brought up the seventeenth report of
the Select Committee on public petitions.—Ordered to be
printed.
Mr. 11. DA RE presented a petition from the Justices
of Peace of Epping, in the county of Essex, against the
Beer Bill. The petitioners stated that crime had greatly
increased since the establishment of the beer shops; and
prayed the House either to pass some preventive mea-
sure, or to repeal the statute altogether. The Hon. 'Umber
corroborated the statements in the petition, and begged
leave cordially to support it.
Referred to the Committee on the Beer Bill.
Sir R. BULKELEY presented a petition from the con-
gregation of Particular Baptists of Bangor, in the county
of Anglesea, against negro slavery ; also three other peti-
tions from different parishes in that county to the same
effect. The Hon. Member also presented two petitions from
the landowners of the county of Anglesea, and certain coach
contractors and proprietors complaining of the high rate of
fares kept up by the Government steam packets between
Holyhead and Dublin. A Committee had last session been
appointed on this subject, and had made a report, to which
he gave notice that he would, on the 11th of June, call
the attention of the House.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped the attention of the Govern-
ment would be given to the subject, as it was considered
a great grievance in Ireland. The charge between Holy.
head and Dublin was as high as from Liverpool to Dub-
lin, giving au undue preference to the Liverpool station.
Lord ALTHORP said that the attention of Ministers
had been called to the question ; considerable difficulties
attended it, but the House might depend upon the best
attention being given to the subject.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the country was
supporting these rackets now, at the annual loss of
50,000/., as it did last year. He hoped that the rates
and passengees now fully paid all expenses.
No answer.
Mt. J. ROMILLY presented two petitions from parishes
iu Gloucestershire against slavery.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented petitions from Rom-
ney Marsh, Ashbury, and Redburn, for the abolition of
the duty on malt, and from several parts of Kent for the
abolition of slavery and the better observance of the Sab-
bath.

Col. WOOD bore testimony to the great hardships sus-
tained by the industrious Irish who come over from time
to time to labour in this country, and gave it as his opi-
❑ion that the only way to alleviate their burdens would
be, to place Irish paupers on the same footing with Eng-
lish and Scotch. The great evil of thelpresent system
was, that unfortunate Irish paupers were treated as va-
grants without havine committed any acts of vagrancy.
Lord DUNCANNON corroborated the view given of
the great hardships sustained by the Irish poor, and hoped
that the measure which might be introduced, would ade-
quately provide for their relief, not only in this country,
but on their being sent home to Ireland.
Mr. H. GRATTAN thought the Noble Lord opposite
(Sandon) had touched the real point in this case, and be
fully concurred with him on the necessity of the introduc-
tion of poor laws into Ireland. He hoped the Committee
would be so managed as not to introduce any feeling
of asperity between the two countries.
Mr. SLANEY felt glad that the Committee had been
appointed, though he did not think much benefit would
be derived from it.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the more Ireland was op-
pressed the more would she enforce her rights. No Par-
liament more deserved the hatred of Ireland than the
present; it had done nothing for her, but everything
against her.
The motion was agreed to, and a Select Committee
appointed.

Colonel TORRENS postponed his motion for a Select
Committee on the commercial policy of the country.
Mr. R. PALNIER rose to make his motion for a Se.
lect Committ-e to inquire into the law relative to the
passing of Irish vagrants, with a view to its amend-
ment, and to report their opinion to the House. This
subject, he said, had been brought before the
House in 1828, when a Select Cammitt.e was appointed,
whose repo, t was a recotninendation that the law for the
passing of Irish vagrants should be repealed. A Bill was
then brought into toe (louse, which was abandoned, and
a siiiiillr one in the last session, but why it was not
carried into effect it would be, perhaps, now unnecessary
to inquire. He had made written inquiries in the
various counties which were most affected by the
operation of this law, and the replies he had
received enabled him to say that there was a progressive
increase of List, vagrants, and of consequent expense. In
the county of 11-rks the number of persons passed by this
law for the last five years had been 2,272, 2,660, 3,300,
4,300, and 5,359; at an expense of 5681.,
6661., 8251.
1,0'"x5/., and 1,175/. In Wilts and Gloucestershire
thete was a corresponding increase, and he might state
that the average cost to the three counties for the last

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a. .
h•
toting the disposal of this property, that nau i pur- .'A
chase money should remain on mortgage, at two and a
half per cent. It was important entirely-to get rid of the
establishment attached to this property, and'
,to the ex-
,
i.ense of the collection of its revenues, whictn hotouoted to
fts-
......4
-7- ,„,0 per cent. He had no doubt, if the subject were fol-
-71 lowed up as it ought, the property might be made one of
our most useful resources in time of need.
51r. HUME expressed hie satisfaction that the subject
was about to be inquired into, and hoped it would be ex-
tended to Ireland and to Scotland.
Lord DUNGANNON thought that the first step to
933. (PRICE take was the appointment of a Committee. If that Com-
mittee should be of opinion that a Commission was de-
ore five years, was—for Berko, 855/. ; for Wilts, sirable, his Majesty's Government would not object to such
I
e• for Gloucestershire, 1,2851. Thus much
a proposition. The Hon. Member for Colchester had ad-
from Londen to Ireland via Bristol, On the i
vetted to large sums received from the Woods and Forests,
of Liverpool, the increase was of a similar na
and not brought to the public account. But the Hon.
Hon. Member concluded by moving for the E
Gentleman must he aware of the heavy debt upon it,
tree. amounting to 1,500,000/. Last year 250,0001. of that
debt had been paid off, and 100,000/. more would be paid
"he question having been put, in the present year. The expense of collection was not
rd ALTHORP admitted that great incor
half what it had been described by the Hon. Gentleman.
sen from the system complained of, and h
Mr. COBBETT reprobated the course taken by the
NI inquiry; he would not, however,
o the motion for a Select Committe Commissioners of Woods and Forests in beautifying
'
streets, building houses, &c., in the metropolis. Of all
ay particular course at present.
tile mistakes ever fallen into by our Government, none
IETT trusted that in any law that al
Committee, dire consideration w was greater than that of expending large sums of motley
on this particular spot. Instead of accumulating and
lion of the persons spoken of.
aratively destitute of food, althc adding to the crowd of idlers in London, it ought to be
se largest counties in England, the object of Government to diminish it. As it was,
'
with large quantities of provi however, something was taken away from every part of
therefore due to.the Irish lobo the country, in order to enlarge London. The building of
unity in search of food.—(H the Penitentiary was a most unwise measure. It cost a
to consideration, and it had religion of money, and a number of persons were brought
viest on the agricultural up to London to assist in its erection. 'What he rose,
Lancashire, which was however, to observe was, that as soon as possible, efforts
re in poor rates than se should be made to recover Crown property which
hire and coming dc had unjustly got into other hands, in order to enable the
s
that Manchester i
Treasury to take off taxes. The Hon. Member for Col-
vof Bedford, cheater valued the property at 15 millions. He (Mr.
d that the Not Cobbett) was more sanguine. He had known a trifle paid
ion, and he hop, for a very valuable estate. Now, they all knew that when
do away witl a steward had unjustly disposed of his master's property
for a small consideration, the landlord's remedy was in the
made by th Court of Chancery. In the case of the Crown lands the
any mea-
country should have its Court of Chancery—namely, that
taken that
a
House. The leases, fines, and all other circumstances
not fall ought to be strictly inquired into, and if it were found
ear the that Crown property had been sold or let for less than its
value, the agreement ought to be cancelled by Parliament,
iorel Fraudulent contracts ought not to be permitted to endure.
,a 1 lie was born on the borders of the forest of Holt, and he
well remembered, when he was young, that it was full of
fine and lofty timber. Many thousands of acres of trees
were, however, struck down, lopped, barked, and then
disposed of; and it was not improbable that Government
had been treated on that occasion as Lord Peter borough
had been treated by his steward, who knocked down hii
house, sold the materials, and then brought in his Lord-
ship a bill fur repairs.—(A laugh.) There had been
enough wood cut down in that forest of Holt to have sup-
plied the Royal Navy for several years. He hoped that
the Hon. Member for Colchester would be a member of
the proposed Committee, and that the Committee would
go into the consideration of the subject honestly, without
any respect to persons, and with a determination that the
public should have justice done them.
Mr. SLANEY agreed with the Hon. Member for 01J-
ham, that if the Committee discovered any disgraceful job
they ouhgt to bring it to light. It was only by such a
course that the House could satisfy the people.
Mr. E. STANLEY expressed himself to the same effect.
Mr. HUNIE wished to know if it was meant to ex-
tend the inquiry to the duchies of Cornwall and
Lancaster?
Lord DUNCANNON replied in the negative,
Mr. HUME thought that those duchies were fit sub-
jects for inquiry.
Mr. W. HARVEY was of the same opinion. He
knew of a case in one of those duchies in which a fine
of 71,0001. bad been exacted for three lives, thereby de-
priving the public of nearly a quarter of a million. He
would not allow the session to pass without making
a specific motion on the subject.
The motion for the address was then agreed to, and a
Select Committee was subsequently appointed.
ADVERTISEMENT DUTIES.

Mr. BERNAL brought up the report of the Committee
on the Stamp Duty Acts.
Mr. HUME considered the duty on advertisements as
a tax utterly unworthy the consideration of the Noble
Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He trusted, at
all events, he would be induced to try a duty of Is. on
each advertisement, satisfied as he (Mr. Hume) was,
that by so doing, the revenue would be increased to a far
greater amount than by the sum of Is. 6d., now proposed.
Mr. COBBETT wished to ask the Noble Lord (Alttiorp)
whether, in his intended modification of the stamp duties,
he would make freehold property liable to the legacy and
probate duties, in the same way that personal property
was? If he did not so propose, he (Mr. Cobbett) should,
without delay, give notice of a motion upon the subject.
Lord ALTHORP considered the proper opportunity
for the Honourable Member to introduce his propositions
was when he (Lord Althorp) brought forward the sche-
dule of duties in the Bill for the consolidation of the
stamp laws. He certainly did intend to make a freehold
property subject to a probate, but not to a legacy duty.
Mr. R. WASON was sorry to say the landowners in
that Howse seemed to be determined to throw the we:ggi,t
l'''nia°ouretdderiss:
oithethpeepoupblelicwbeurredeenvereyntdiraeyly
gferotttinngthmeiorreow,nnd
contented at seeing enormous masses of wealth hoarded vid
by individuals, whilst they were sinking deeper and deeper
in poverty slid suffering.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL denied that the landed
interest endeavoured unworthily to ahuffie off their lair
share of public obligations. There was no class more
distressed than the proprietors of small parcels of land.
After a few words from Lords &armor; and At,.
THORP, the report was agreed to.
SAVINGS' BANKS' ANNUITIES BILL.
Lord ALTHORP said it was his intention to defer the
third reading of this Bill until to-morrow, not being com-.
pleiely prepared to announce all the alterations that migb,t
be desirable in it.
Mr. COBBETT hoped the Noble Lord would alter tbo
clause which required a month's notice of the withdrawal
of any deposit.
Lord ALTHORP intended to alter that clause, and,
it was also his intention to put any person withdtawing
his payments in the same situation as if be had never
made any.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD strongly denounced savings'
banks, as being originally intended—let. to make country
bankers a scape-goat for the faults of Government. 2. To
bolster up the Government by means of placing masses of
money in the bands of Government by which to susiaiu
the funds ; and 3. To enable Government to have a claw
on the pockets of the people, and, by what he should call
an infernal partnership, allow it to scourge, coerce, and
abuse them. The Hon. Member went on in this strain
for some time, amidst, at one time, peals of laughter, and
another of strong expressions of indignant reprobation.
Lord ALTHORP conten.:ed that Savings' Banks had
been of the greatest possible advantage, and ought not to
iie held up to public odium merely for interfering with
he profits of private bankers.—(Loud cheers.) He be-
lieved it to be a good principle to connect the working
people with the Government of the country.
Mr. YOUNG (Tynemouth) considered that the depo-
sits in Savings' Banks were allowed to be too great in their

amount.
Mr. F. SHAW considered these institutions as most
advantageous, as they were admirably calcula,ed to itr,,
prove the condition of the milking classes, and intereek
them in the peace and welfare of society.
Mr. SLANEY considered there could ho nothing wiser
in the people of this country than to prefer the security of
Government to that slippery one—the country bankers,
.itm.nf whom had at times Liiled.—(Loud cries of " Hear:,
hears")
Au !lox. Mnitixil. (name unknown) was, underst.rod
to complain that the expense of management would, under
this Bill, be defrayed by the Government.
denLowrhdLiAteLvelrlithOroßwP e
ii ronpltied,
lleretvhiantuteh._ereTwhoeuld be
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ordered to be read a third time to-morrow (this, day).
On the motion of Mr. F. PALMER, tbt,t the Sheriff's,
Bill he read a second time,
The SOLICITOR- GENERAL said that he was de,
cidedly opposed to the plan of throwing the expenses of
the office of Sheriff upon the county rates. There was
now an understanding between the Sheriffs and Under
Sheriffs, the latter of whom agreed to bear the expense;
and there were fees of office that enabled them to do so.
The expense might always be limited, at the pleasure of
the person who held the office, and it would be hard
to make the farmer and the occupier pay three expenses
incurred at the discretion of an individual.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL perfectly agreed with the Hon.
id,
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that
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otehtx.aptiefni htsiceießactni laowti
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would counties connected with the
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Mr
office of Sheriff, and if gentlemen of suitable fortune were