The Sun.
London, England, 1805-04-11 00:00:00

as
should not agree with him, and therefore he W
determined to press the question to a division,—
He moved,
" That an Mumble Addres4 be presented to liissmlysasjeisz.a
praying, that he would he graciously pleased t,o
leas.urct and
viscount Melville from all Ofhees held durun,, p
fromn.fliS Majesty's Presume and Councils for ever.'
And the question.being put,
Mr. CANNING rose. However
,desirous the
Hon. Gentleman might have been of disclaiming any
other motives for.tho'course he pursued than what
proceeded from a wish to establish an example,he
could not help thinking, and he was sure many. more
were of the .same opinion, from the topics which the.
Hon. Gentleman had introduced, and the time he had
adopted,. that he had been situated by something
more than the motives he had alledged. Good
God (exclaimed the Right Hon. Gentleman) I what._
was the mea.sure of justice to be. iciliEted,.and what
the measure in which it Wils then proposed to carry
it into execution ? Thc Hon. Gentleman had gives.
a specimen of the spirit by which he was aituated
when he set out with .assertingthat what Lord Met.
vine had done in obedience to the Resolutions and
wish of the House, which he was himself by no means
disposed to find (atilt with now that:it had become.
the Mt of the Nouse, , W. 15 imputable to him ,as an
aggravation of his guilt. The lion. Gentleman had
made that aft of the Noble Lord a ground of accusa•
lion against him, and seemed to have considered his •
deference walla authority of the House in the light
• of a subterfuge to evade or disappoint justice. What
would have been the feelings and theanimadversians
of the Hon. Gentleman, what his expressions of in.
digoarion and resentment, if the House had met-this
day, Lord Melville, instead of bowing to its first •
decision, still continuing to hold the office of; First
Lord of'the Admiralty (4 cry of Hear" Hcar!"
from the CWotition lienches,,) .Would he mit have.
made that Ale ground Of farther anti increased invec.
tive ?—("Still a hudcry of f°llear 1") He took it fur
• granted, horn the aymptoma which he observed on
the other side of the House, that the Gentlemen.
there assented to both these assertions. Did they
mean then to say, that whatever coerse the Noble
Lord had followed, it would have the en& of ten.
Bering hiovadditionally culpable ?—( Hear! Hear!)
It certainly appeared an, since his submission to the
vote of the" House had been construed into an
gravatiOn of his guilt.; and. Gentlemen seemed to
• indicate that hiS continuance in office would have
been regarded in the same light ; and this was no
good specimen of the fairness of 'the motive's upon
which Gentlemen boasted of ailing, and of their
impartiality in acing upon them. The lion. Gen.
tleman had applied to him for information whether
he had dismissed Mr. Trotter from the employment
which he had held under him in the Navy Office t
lie had himself the other night explained the
motives which' had- induced him to omit dismissing
that Gentleman ; he had thought it improper, pend.
jag a Parliamentary proceeding, to prejudge the
decision el that House, which, by his ail, in the
dismissal of Mr. Trotter, previous to the discus.
aicn of Monday, lie would have appeared -to do.—
. Besides, limn the nature of the relation subiisting
• between him and Mr. •Trotter, he must have been
the best acquainted with his merits in the execution
cif the duties of his office, and also the best judge
whether he ought to be removed until an acqieseence
in the decision of the House became the rule of his
conduit. He was sure, that those who thought un.
favourably of his motives the other night, would re. -
arail their censure when they were made acquainted
with the circumstance of his having lost no time in
sliatnissiog • hiM, when it became a duty incumbent
on him,. in obedience to the sense of Parliament. He
was -lure the Hon. Gentleman
.opposite (Mr. Gin.
Poratotiav),. who had urged his suffering Mr.
Trotter to continue in office, an accusation of his
manduit, would, in the present instance,. if he pos.
aessed any of the 'thataeter or spirit of a 'British
„lawyer, confess that his accusation was unfair, un.
ounded, tyrannical, and despotic (a loud cry of
" bear ! hear 1"). With regard to Mr. Wilson, he
stall continued in-the same office which he before
held. The Honourable Gentleman had asked, whe.
ther he too had been dismissed ? The Honourable
Member, as far as he could discover, had no reason
to think that Mr.- Wilson had been in any way
implicated. Wilson 'had been one of
those who had been reported by the Commis.
sioners . as having given reluitant testimony.
--
He was convinced OW no more conscientious OM.
cer existed. If- the deciSion of the House should
Ise declared against continuing Mr. Wilson in of-
fice, he should deem it his duty to obey. But he
would ask, whether knowing the conscientious
principles Of the man, he. was 'bound to dismiss,
hitit without such decision ? With ;esprit to his
having declined to ans Wei' before the Commission.
ers, lest he should criminate' hiMself, this had been
explained to him (Mr. CANNING), and he believ.
ad to the Commissioners also. Mr. Wilson sited
occasionally, in the absence of the Paymaster, for •
the short period of two or three days, and used
to sign drafts, in .the 1.11041 form, on the Bank,
for the money wanted for the Office.- If there
was any legal or moral guilt in the manner of
execrating this part, of the duty of the Paymaster,.
and that there • was legal guilt •in it he had no
t0.,,,bt, since the l-tows had so decided, Mt. Wilson,
;so far as he had mites! in this revealor time, principa • • I
pattieipteti in that legal guilt ; and on that account
had declitied to itrii:Ntr. Hut that he had ever acted'
with a view to private emolument, never well
been supposed or charged against him.. But to ie.
turn to the question ; the honourable Gentleman
that night hall renewed all the unfairness which • he,
had practised in the last division ; he had used
every means of aggravating hiS charge, and had
izitrodum.l into the discussion many things that
not keen.at all brought before the li suse.a—
rte. had colletqcti every circumstance that c,031:l tend
to give alt tinfavcurable impression agiiittal the Gb.
;!:(t't of his accusittn, and had even construed the
kt,t which mis a marl:. of the N. Lord's dela.
x-:ncc to the !louse, atal of his huoilliation, into an
agvavat;cm of his The Hon. Gentlenton said
(hat the Motion this night was nothing more than a
confirmation of the vote of the former mght. But
the vote rd. time former night, as a mcf,ted, • only
declared that the Noble Lord had violated the
lavb ; but it did- not charge hini with hat, log
dune it -for 'private emolumetst. Y tie ki.m, Gen.

tleman disclaitueel any oLher *matte for his Motion
this night but a view to public ju,tiee. Whv
Lai been already done towards that end ? the
state of humiliation to which the Noble Lord had
been reduced, nothing? Was Such an end to such a
political life nothing ? The Hon. Gentleman had, in
adverting to the Resolutions adopted .by the
House on the former night, dwelt with exultation
on the virtue, that had then been displayed.
Hon. Gentleman might have adverted to many in.
stances of equal virtue, not only in the best 'periods
of the most distinguished times of our history,
but hr. might also have found a similar instance
of .patriotic enndua in 1795, when two Noble
Lords (Lords Grey and St. Vincent) were on their
trial before the House under similar circumstances.
'These N..ble Lords had been then defended by
their political enemies, and the Noble Lord, the
objed of the Motion of tkis night, had fought
in that anise many obstinate battles in their
defence. This Noble Lord, who had acted so ge.
nerously on • that ,occasion, so far from experienc-
ing equal generosity, was now.persecuted and hunted
down, and by whom ? by the friends of Lord Grey
and of Earl St. Vincent. He congratulated the.
Gentlemen on. their sense, true spirit, and virtue,
and prayed God Almighty to forbid that he should
ever imitate their example.
Mr. GRRY and Mr. G. PONSONISY rose at the
same time.

Mr. PONSONBY having with some difficulty
given way,
Mr. 9REY said, it was impossible for him on the
sort of appeal made by the Him. Gentleman who
spoke last, an appeal which could have no advan.
tageous effed whatsoever for the persons whose che.
teeters were under consideration, not to offer himself
for a few moments to the House. The Honourable
Gentleman congratulated him, and those about him,
on what he was pleased to term more than Spartan
virtues—of being insensible to the support those who •
were must dear to them had formerly received from
the person now under accosatien ; and the Hon.
Gentleman at the same time represented that this
person had, on that occasion, fought the most dif.
ficult battle ever remembered in that Houses He
begged the Hon. Gentleman and the House to re.
coheit the circumstances of that transaftion, and
on the strength of that recolleilion he disclaimed
and denied the difficulty so. broadly stated. The
Noble potions alluded to had, in that instance, re.:
ceivcd support from those who had recommended
thein to the Crown; and among the low solid glories
of the last War, he hoped to be all Owed to rank
the services they had performed. He hoped-to
be allowed also to claim credit for their con.
dun in not flying from inqUiry, in not seeking
shelter in delay and sulsterluge, but boldly and,
candidly appealing to the justice of the House,
and desiring the stritiest investigation. Under
these circumstances, he disclaimed the idea that
any benefit bad been conferred on them. The
defence sfforded on that occasion was but what
was due in justice to the Country, and what those
who had recommended the Officers whose conduit
was under discussion owed to themselves. This was
the sentiment of the Hon. Gentleman who moved
the Amendment at the time, being of opinion that
the original Resolutions did not express fairly the
sense that ought to be entertained of the conduit of
thrise noble persons. Those noble persons had been
recommended to the Crown to conduit an arduous
enterprize, and they had succeeded ; they after-
wards-encountered difficulties, and the House was
of opinion, on full Consideration of the case, that. no.
blame was to be imputed to them. No benefit was
therefore conferred, and if any person conceived it
was a favour, that person must have a different view
of tl.e case from what he had. With reaped to the
merit assumed fur recommending without partiality
persons of all parties for the public service of the
Army and Navy, he begged the House to recoiled,
that if instead of employing those meritorious Of.
freers who were best qualified to serve the Country,
private pique and narrow considerations were to
prevail, to the exclusion of those meritorious Officers,
and to the employment of others less capable of pro.
moting.the national glory, the person who would atft
on such a system would be guilty of a gross derelic.
clan of idblie duty. The persons best qintlified lost:
tain the objeds the Country looked for were in these
instances, above all others, to be called upon by those
at the head of affairs, without any consideration of
political animosity. As to the difficulty of the battle
fought in the House for the noble persons whose con.
duet
.was then under discussion, the Hun. Gent. was
then a Member of the House, though he did not take
a. part in the debate ; he might therefore havoreeol.
idled that the Minority,on that occasion, amounted •
only to sixteen, the odd sixteen of the other night.
Where then was the difficulty the titan. Gentleman
had represented, and the extraordinary merit and ex.
crtion of the person whose conduit was now under
consideration, to obtain the decision then came to.
It was not agreeable to hilts to enter into these par.
titulars, but ire could not sit silent under the unpros
yoked and ill-judged allusion Of the Hen, Gentle.
nun—ill-judged, tor the charaiter and the cause the
Hun. Gentleman was supporting. Fur himself;
however warmly he felt at times, no one was'gene.
rally less liable to excess of warmth—it was Out in
his nature ; the Hon. Gentleman did not know
him ; but those who did know him, knew that he
was incapable of holding permanent resentment
against any map; it was impossible he could have
any against the Noble Lord whose condtA was
now the subjed of debate. He would bear tcs.
timony for his Hon. Friend who had made the
Motion, that he was as little likely to be attuated
by such feelings, and the House would go with him
in the understanding that the only motive was a
sense of duty, which the Ilouse had santiioned.
lie was of opinion that if any blame layi it was
for not being sufficiently severe. Tire tion.Gentle.
men sail this attack was pursued with bitterness.
, That it was maintained with strength he was ready
to allow ; but that there was nu rancour in pressing
the Ilouse to a declaration of its just sense an delin-
quency so clearly established us what he main.
I,,ined, anti he was sore the House would go with
fl it were the general sentiment of the House
titat the present Motion should not now be pressed,
lie should not be for pressing it ; but till some better
reason could be oflered on the other side thv these
urged by the Hon. Gentleman, ire titouglit

House having ec,me to the Resolution that the Noble •
Lor'd was guilty of a gross violation of the law,
and culpable neglefi of his public duty, the House
would not sustain its character if such a Resolu.
Lion was suffered to remain on the Journals with.
Wt being fiillowed up. Nothing like argument
had been blended with the appeal made to the
passions of the House from the other side. His
Hon. Friend had been misrepresented when he
was stated to have said, that what the Hon. Gentle.
man had called an ael, of humiliation and deference
to the sense of the House was an aggravation of his,
guilt. What His Majesty's Minister, the friend of.
the Noble Lord, had stated, that the N..ible Lord had
tendered his resignation, and that it had been accept-
ed, would;in other circumstances, be sufficient.—As
to the question 'put by the 'Hon. Gentleman, what
if Lord Melville hatl met the Parliament this day
without having taken the step he had taken ? his
answer was, that this would be matter of some ad.
ditional charge against Lord Melville ; but it would
be matter of greater charge against His Majesty's
Ministers, that they should not have. removed
him. On the former dis'cussion of this business, his
Honourable Friend (Mr. •Fox), had consented to
an adjournment for the day, in the express expec-
tation that His. Majesty's Ministers would do,
their 'duty by dismissing Lord Melville,•not With:
the intention ,that it should be , left matter of
choice to Lord Melville. It was the sense of
the House that the Noble Lord shoUld be re.
moved from His Majesty's Councils for ever.—
With a Resolution of this kind on • the Jour.
nals of that House, he conceived it 'impossible
Lord Melville could hold any situation of trust
or confidence.--(Coneeiviog lone surprits to he
expel:ear 4), the CHANCELLOR of the EXCH NU; R
at this idea.)—lf the Right Honourable Gentleman
meant to intimate that there was any danger of such
an event, it was• particularly fit to guard against
it : but he still continued to say, that after such
a Resolution there was. no danger of the Noble Lord's
being appointed to any office of trust. Still,
however,' the Noble Lord was a ,Member of His
Majesty's Privy Council, and he ought to be so
no longer. In Scotland.the offices the Noble Lord
held were chiefly, for life, but he held others
durinZ pleasure,' and he ought to be removed
from them, if the justice of the House, or of
the Country, was to be, satisfied. If Lord
Melville had had an increase of his Salary as Keeper
of the Privy Seal of Scotland on his coming into
office of First Lord of the Admiralty, he hoped,
if it was intended on his retiring from the Admiral.
ty that he should retain that and all his other
honours and emoluments, the good sense of the
House would put a negative on that intention. Till
then some better arguments were adduced than the
appeal to the feelings and delicacy of the House,
he should persevere in supporting the Motion.=-.,
He adverted to the charge so unwarrantably made
Q n his. Honourable and Learned Friend behind
him (Mr. PonsoNay), who was accused of con.
dint inconsistent with British Law and British
justice, with tyrannical and despotic principles, in
pressing the punishment of this delinquency. The
person whose condad was under consideration,
was not, however, on trial, as the Hon. Gentleman
asserted ; he had been proved guilty of a positive
breach of the laic, and he still oeld offices of great
trust in the money concerns of the Country. This
was not prejudging the case. But even before rite
matter had comae to trial, it was obvious, as iris
Hon, and Learned Friend had shown, that Mr.
Trotter was unfit to hold the office in which he was,
under such strong imputation of tniscondu(l. He
had been.called up by the personal allusion that had
been made by the Hon. Gentleman; but being up,
he thought it right to state thus far his reasons fur
supporting the Motion; and he saw nothing in all
the KM. Gentleman had uttered with so much rant
and fury to induce him'io alter his opinion. The
Motion was a necessary consequence of the Resolu.
tion of the former night, and ought to be supported
by every friend to the honour of the House, to the
justice of the Country, and the charader of Ad.'
ministration.

Mr. PONSONRY was sure that after the very
marked personal allusion the Hon. Gentleman who
spoke on the other side had made in so very broad
a manner to him, there was not a Member in the
House who would not excuse him for'so immediately
pressing himself upon its attention. He owed this
to that value he had always had ftlr the good opinion
of the House since he had-the honour to be a Mem-
ber of it ;- but that good opinion was doubly dear
to him since the vote of the last night of meeting.
The good opinion of an Assembly so raised, so ex.
alted, so justly established in the admiration and
gratitude of the Country, and so honourably entitled
to the applause and approbation of the world, could
not but be matter of increasing 'value to every man
who could claim the happiness to enjoy any portion
of it. The Hon. Gentleman said, if lie had imbibed
the principles of British Law, be would not have
advanced the tyrannical, despotic, and arbitrary doc.
trines he had maintained., lie was extremely un-
fortunate if he had advanced such do6trines ; but
Ile was not aware that he had. It was in his recol--
lettion that he had been followed in that deflate by
an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, not less high in
authority for legal knowledge than he was in legal
station the Master of the Rolls) ; that Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, had done him the hOnoor to no.
tide some part of what had fallen from him, tend if
irlaennhadal,beerl guilty of uttering those arbitrary, ty.
ic
and despotiesentiments which the Hon.
Gentleman charged on hitn, he was bate they would
not have escaped his animadversion. When the
Honourable Gentleman supposed him deficient in
the principles of British Law, he conveyed an idea
of distinetion of countries. He was not ashamed of
his Country 1 and he trusted his Country would
never have occasion to be ashamed of him. But if
the Honourable Gentleman placed a value on British
blood and British connexion,- he c:tulti boast that as
good British blood flowed in his veins, and his
British connexions were as honourable, as those of
the Hon. Gentleman ; and though he could not boast
of those talents which ai so early 4 period of lite
rais:%l the Hon. Gentlem:in to that high station,
which others could only attlio at it late period of
life, by constant ;lad toitionte exertion t though he,
WllO )1,13 but slowly anti gradually, and at a mantic
a;:,iir..d the mudet.ate tioo On whicit he

•
Stood, not boast of such talents, or itieh for.
tune—it was some Consolation to him, that 'he had
never before been charged with being the advoette,
of arbitrary power. If his memory served !sirs
right, he did not use language amounting to' witai
the Hon. Gentleman charged on him ; bur, if h
see
had, was it entitled to the charatter the Pon
able Gentleman bestowed I ffe had said, lie 10
persuaded the Honottrible Gentleman 'lst ‘10'•
vinced in his mind of Mr. Trotter's lonntenee,
because he was persuaded the Hun. Ganderoo
would not again have cotnmived to hitn„theorfice
he was stated to have so abused if he ols,tiot
convinced. 'Was this arbitrary sod tyransieall °s/
if he had: gone turther, and said, thaWeven
Hon. Gentleman was convii.cd of Mr. Trotters
innocence, he sh mid not have contiaued 'Hat .0
office, accused as he was by his own testrinonr4
that of his principal, Lord Melville ;
,that the
Gentleman should have suspended him till the seal
of the House had ileeMprunuunced,. and the menis°
the case were proceeded upon, even •therohe
Pfin:
ceiv,ed he. should. not have argued on Joy twer'li
tutional or tyrannical proloiloo, .shoultinito
t
have . enforced a deference due to the ilduse anti
the Country by ceasing to employ a stigiustit7l.
thing
gic servant till the aspersi ,n which
hail cast upon his own charatter d aPa(l'e"
Notwithstanding his respea fur the talents of
Right Hun. Gentleman—not withstandint hisreio
ness to allow him every latitude o(curornent
i he evuld
that may have fallen filmy
not allow him such latitude to his talent! 14
stpermitihwcutildo
rfaribiouldlem
ialGllcfnee
teenceaohnne
Gentleman,
tfloteirichfili
eloler
if ee said.
tsofho hooirlenledds
ttulaekp honour to nolicikol
had
mad
him he
a•
few words to the question before the-Holile";,fot
and accepted; ebythethoepProe'itilt:,iltAcl/4
Right. Hi-J:. ;.)ppusite had, oolitic:1o' ea
Lord Melville's resignation . had. 4410 le oil
bad not at the same time notified that 111;1;:jiire,
but the Right Honourable o°4l pt,
be the conclusion of Lord Mayflies pclitliete
The resignation was but an at of ohedithf°,:asot
the sense of the House; but it it war lUsuett, $O.
stood that this obedience wax to• conclude
ble Lord's political career, he hail tit): Otte' to
tonal 'hostility to him, so little disposition ttiolitbe
on his feelings, or to aggravate hif fAr.kt
1° Ana
would be disposed to acquiesce. But 404
now Mattel' of conlidcration, whether, loving aid ha
to _First Lord of the Admiralty, he s'ai• t joi
still suffered to hold his other -ofEce3 °f"hll'lsritt
emolument. Hs was a Member 'of !!'ciflcit off
Council ; and when persons had been stcgoolf,
the list et that Council fur what °lei/4)41011
est their duty dinated, an 4 will'"" 4..1' fig*
l'elokution of the House of C°111111,..°An4,,,:a 141P`ad
natural that the flouse having passcu'— to •"?
of
httiuns should expet such a resl44t franca '
would put a case : supposing the persanaloil4,4l,
jnLorduall y in credit and power in etcopti•
estY's Councils, and btippOlie their
:representing Lord. Melville .os.
individual hunted down by unjust pers,ecti- 'roo.
the Public during a vacation 511941° of
tinually impressed with the. inridee"'o,
injured Nitnister, by the venal ad:v7 uoi,
eOuld be so easily mustered. in •11.1..‘1111,0,0ri4t,
saw rio reason why he may not lut-to,oo' ,0114
Session be restored to his formcr:siwall
gr qua.
Cabinet. If the Right Hun. Gentieini
son to understand that this Was to be,ll'o,o.o',
Nal sivs,e,uires,
seoffs, tot is
e the Noble
tt
Ministers
yrLus
thought
tru:: cu
r fee; eehr:f.utirlfillal
ajesty to employ him.
now there was nothing to prevent his,g,e,t4oldotlit
hcfe was Lios
Ar
at present against the .re.employment egii.
ville, or any other person in like cirecfniti.nt
to the other •b • he could° lblie'
pats o the „,,
to let them merge, into oblivion.. \Vile"'
money got into the hands of Agents, or j.- • pts tia thilr
which it ought not to have got' it. w.
f soAcuivif,el
Parliament t hsve it accounted fur
the Public. lie would also adhere iltu-eril-'Ol,-.0,01.
othet points, tiiat the persolL ,1",„ tittlinisiti,fe,
Treasury, es, presiding. over the wono-lts,,, of
!ion of the money; had been gul 4iono P
ble negligence in overlooking their trails3* wlt°
,sennerOPl• her
was not disposed t_o hrnnttt
the Right Hon. Gentleman, .or lo
lightly, but it appeared in the ger.'" Ofiat
f°''`'orailifils;;
intendanae was lax ; and as a Reptelentao„ortr)
People it was his duty to c
though he was not a British LAwYhan
er' .weatid,ll!4o.:
Representative, nor of British birth, of stilt
claim it as a privilege due to that portlobr'iod tr"
oe
blood that belonged to him to oonsider4tast
Representative at the Peaple at large, orthew:
a right to investigate the Administrati°
JO'
pire in all its parts. oi he ll°. AO
No. C in expldriation 131 !ood
extremely understood if he ovas sail) feejlat
Nn idea that the Resolution alrodY 01°1111
1, Or; ',NW -
long
'winded, would be as effettual olchi 001 -
as it remained on the Journals je 1114 4.7 di,
Lord from His 'Majesty's Councils as
mitt I?.csalution the, Hot*: could.corbe :iseine e.
T se
Mr. 3. EO ANI'ON roe, in treciiiVoi
the allusion made this night ord on a i! moritP,4l,.
to the evidence of an eitpericnoti 3,11%„,
nertotiot
Oiii:er of the Bank before' the C orni6l o
viland) 011(t
vat Inquiry. 'u nit Officer (Mr. Oe 04.
iotirrtsed that the drafts passed hY an whlG''t 114
had not ,al ways expressed the service "visiono °II,OIO
were drawn, conformably to hP,,,r°cailet 111,141
mt of Parliament. If this were 175 0)0 jtio.
were cert:stilly to blame, as he hCi p.yttlasig 11111
cpraespsyedolh.
rpaoftws•eirroumndtehrewyhtaierhi;se6.oo4o,l
sled
owe.
nation of Lord Melville ; this P ,icutatl)ceistr
express words, •' that he should be 011ie scot o
lul to specify in each and every dfdtt fait coirt. r't
iaOt
which the money was citao'n*„ to C Cr
Mr. Newland, though at she head °Ac tAr
iitto
papist talent of the 13.1,,k,' wd9 riot
ich 1/11',,P
whose inspeCtim the delaill Of this htsrie,friirrjr,fti
had
was carried on, -aod therct4re
matter of opiniort. The ()dicer wIP-itile it.jo,
0.4 Y
train the 1" -"fr „soccd
• ~ his c 1
that 4 ,
tile oen };is 1 C;.7lleajt•Mo
Lir cots research I. f, 01e
•

Ve,