The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

THE

Oldham, rested upon false principles. The whole mo-
tion rested on an error in principle, as well as in fact;
for the Hon. Member said he would erect the great
fabric of national prosperity on the solid basis of na-
tional intellect. Now, he did not consider that as the
only solid basis.. Man was a moral, an intellectual, and
a spirituel being, and they must educate all those
powers which it had pleased Heaven to bestow upon
him. All must be educsael, and one of them, sod that
the most important cf all, must not ,be neglected, as it
would be by a merely secular education.—(hear, hear.)
He, said that the exertions of the clergy of England
for the last ten years on this subject had been most cre-
ditable to them; and so far as instruction went, the only
question was whether they were not in their schools too
highly instructing the children for their after occupa-
tions in life. But then it was said that in the Irish uni-
versities a secular education alone was to be given; but
then these who made such an objection ought to recol-
lect that these universities were intended for those whose
minds were already formed, but in the schools the minds
of children had to be formed. As to education in Ame-
rica, which had been referred to, ho believed there was
a great diversity of opinion amongst the different states.
Religione was not, he believed, excluded from most of the
schools. And then as to crime disappearing with educa-
tion, facts did not prove it to have dune so. When edu-
cation in America was alluded to, he could not but point
to Louisiana, where the penalty of death was at one
time inflicted for teaching a black child to read or write.
He believed the penalty was not now so severe. As to
religion being taught by parents at home, he
pointed to the state of the manufacturing dis-
tricts to show that parents were not in a con-
dition to impart it, and that the clergy were
too few, in proportion to the population, to devote them-
selves to the task of teaching the children cf the poor.
As to religion not being taught with the multiplica-
tion table, ho admitted that such might be the case, but
religion could well be mixed up with lessons in geogra-
phy and astronomy. And then as to history—let them
look to the difference between a Catholic history of the
reign of Queen Mary and a Pro'estant history of the
reign of Queen Rival:oath, A member of the Spanish
Cortes told him that he had been some time in England
before he found out his mistake in thinking that Queen
Mary was the most popular of British Sovereigns. Such
was the different manner in which history might be
taught.—(Hear.) He wished to see our national pros-
perity founded not only on intellectual advancement,
much as he prized it, but on that which was the only sure
basis—that of morality and religion.—(Cheers.)
Mr. COBDEN said any one who had listened to the
speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend would have
thought that the motion of' the Hon. Member for Old-
ham was, not a proposition for voting a larger sum of
money to supply a defect of education, the existence of
which all were ready to admit, but that he had some
plan by which he proposed to withdraw the funds already
applied to the instruction of the people in religion.
One would suppose that his Honourable Friend actually
intended to abolish the National Church, and with-
draw the 5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001. now considered to be
the endowment of that Church, and that the moment he
should succeed in carrying his motion all the present
voluntary contributions of the Dissenting bodies would
instantly be withdrawn. The Secretary of State fur
Home Affairs admitted that the present system had
proved a failure; but grounded his opposition to the
present motion upon the circumstance that some gentle-
men had come from Manchester, and called on him, and
had communicated to him a new local system, which he
believed would succeed. If they wished to see whether
the present system had failed, they had only to look to
the amount of money voted, which had remained for the
last few years at 125,000/., notwithstanding the increase
in the population. What, then, did the Government fall
back upon? The local system of Manchester, which
had already failed, in the same way as the Government
plan, from the religious difficulty. The gentlemen who
came to town and waited upon the Right Hon. Baronet
had done him the honour also of a visit. They told him
as they told the Right Hon. Baronet, that they had the
concurrence of all the religious sects, both Roman
Catholics end Dissenters; but he hal received a
letter from them, after their return to Man-
chester, in which they regretted to inform him that 18,
or, if he recollected aright, virtually the whole body of
the Roman Catholic clergy had seceded from that plan of
education; and why ? Simply because the committee
which met in Manchester made it a fundamental principle
of their system that in all schools supported by public
rates in Manchester the authorised version of the Bible
should be read.—(Hear, hear.) How was it possible for
such a plan to succeed in such places as Manchester and
Salford, where there were at least 100,000 Roman Catho-
lics, the poorest of the population, whom it would be the
most dangerous to leave in ignorance? Trey were in the
same dilemma at Manchester as in that House; but he
maintained that the little education they did get was got
surreptitiously by means of the Committee of the Privy
Council, and not by a vote of that House; and a cheat
was, in point of fact, practised upon themselves and the
country.—(Hear, hear.) Ther© was a fundamental eva-
sion and fallacy about the whole of the education vote.
When they talked so much of religious teaching in this
country, he asked them whether they voted the
125,0001. for education or religious teaching? Because he
had always understood that it was not a vote for reli-
gious instruction. Could they vote it in the House for
religious teaching if they openly avowed it? No, it
could not be done; it had not been done for many years,
and never would be done again. The Hon. and Learned
Solicitor-General had talked as if there were some
great conspiracy to deprive the country of its religious
faith, and institute schools for teaching infidelity. What
ho maintained was, that provision was already made for
religious training, on which twice as much was spent as
in any other country in the world, and he challenged
any one to controvert it. How, then, could it be said
that he sought to exclude religion from education? They
had been taunted also with the use of the word secular;
but he knew not how otherwise to express the necessity
For supplying instruction in reading and writing, and
teaching men to know something of their own nature,
and training them in habits of thought. He never was
opposed to the Bible or any other religious book being
read in schools, provided all were agreed upon the sub-
ject; but what he did oppose was the levying of rates or
paying money cut of a public fund, and then putti©g a
veto on a portion of their fellow-citizens, because if their
children went to school, they would learn something to
which their parents could not consent. But he had no
desire practically to exclude the Bible. He had no
hesitation in avowing that his system was the system of
the Massachusets common schools. He would not go
with the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General to Louisi-
ana, or to Georgia, or South Carolina. Massachusets
was an old settled county, not a thinly peopled, fertile
district, but one from which there was a vast emigra-
tion to other countries, the population being of
our own race, and very much of our own habits. Why
not adopt the same plan in England ? They had just
now placed themselves in competition with the whole
world, and it a Manchester man saw some wonderful
piece of machinery from the United States in the great
receptacle of the productions of the world, he would say,
what has been done at Boston may be done at Manches-
ter. It was said that the eff,ct of this motion would
make them an irreligious people. He would meet them
on that ground. He had been to Massachusets, and
testing the religious feelings of its inhabitants by the
number of churches, she attendance of the people on
religious worship, their support of religious teachers
and Sunday schools, their observance of the Sabbath,
or the respect paid by them to their religious teachers,
he, challenged them to compare England with Massa-
chusets.—(lronical cheers.) Bet was the reading of the
Bible prohibited ? Ho would venture to say that there
was probably not one out of a hundred schools there
where the Bible was not read.—(Hear.) But his Hon.
Friend the Member for Oldham had no objection to a
parish using the Bible if it chose, as well as any other
book. Why, then, could not England imitate Massachu-
sets, which, in its earlier days, when the pilgrim fathers
came from England, practised as much intolerance
as they left behind them? In ninety-nine oat of a hun-
dred parishes in England he believed no one would
object to the reading of the Bible without note or com-
ment. He believed the people of Massachusets to be as
superior in intelligence to the people of Kent as the peo-
ple of Kent were to the people of Naples.—(lronical
cheers.) Why could not this system be introduced into
England ? Was it because of the Established Church ?
Surely an Established Church, with a very rich endow-
ment, which supported clergymen for every parish,
must be supposed to afford the means of religious educa-
tion gratis to the great mass of the people. 1k was urged
that the proposed plan would supersede the existing
school-rooms, but there was no reason why they should
not be made available for carrying that plan into execu-
tion. Education was greatly needed in the agricultural
districts, and though he did not for a moment wish to
fasten on the clergy of the Established Church the re-
sponsibility of the prevailing ignorance, still they were
interested in the promotion of secular education, for he
could hardly understand how one could'be a Protestant
without knowing how to read. He knew many districts in
which the clergymen of the Established Church had un-
dertaken more than anybody else in the cause of educa-
tion, and he knew the difficulties with which they had
to contend in obtaining the necessary support in some
rural parishes where three-fourths of the land was owned
by absentees. Ho believed it would be found that the
majority of the acres in the rural parishes were, on an
property_(
Hear
owned by absentee proprietors. He wanted to
'BO a plan established by which, for the purposes of se-
cular education, the parish should be able to rate the
po
Hear, hear.) 804 or 100/. so laid out would
do more
to
sn save
sum laid
fromahy
h poorother
r way.rates and crimphad than
the sameeno-
thing
more to say than to express his great gratification
at the altered to
had now nc which the discussion of this question
assumed, as compared with last year. There
was no subject on which
and he was thankful he felt so tolerant as on this,
cause of toeducation—tn all who attempted to assist in the
might belong—because whatever religion or party they
he
of taking any combined sts" the difficulties in the way
elements which had alwayes
powing
never to those religious
hitherto thwarted their en-
deavours; and perhaps there was a time when
more was to be feared from that cause
Lie still hoped, however, that they woul stillan the present.
meet on this neutral ground, out of the paleof be able to
religious
strife and interests, for by no other ans
poor of this country ever be educated,--(Cheers.)
would the
Sir B. H. INGLIS acknowledged with
.satisfaction the
moderation of the Lion. Member's tone; and powerful as
ho unhappily had been in the country, he hoped the Hon.
Member would excuse him for saying that he wished he
had never been more powerful then in the argument he
had used that evening. He rose to support the proposi-
tion of the Hon. Member for Oldham, but instead of
supporting him he had in fact proposed that the Bible
should be read.—aleer, hear.) Lie added that he knew
his Hon. Friend the Member for Oldham was not the
Member to object to that, and touched him affectionately
on the shoulder in expectation of assent. Was that as-
sent given? /s. o; the Hon.
No; Member for Oldham looked
as immoveable as at that moment.—(Laughter.) He
knew that the Hon. Member for the West Riding

SUS`,

would not exclude the Bible from any school under his
control, but was it fit that they should adopt a proposi-
tion which would practically exclude it, together with
the cat:chism, and all religious instruction?—(Hear,
hear.) lie would not repeat the arguments used by the
Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General, for no men could
follow him on such a subject without great disadvantege.
A speech more philosophical, or more filled with religion
and practical good sense, he had not hoard in that
House; and ho congratulated the Government en having
such a cause so defended by one of their chief officers.
He did not regard mere knowledge in itself as a benefit,
but rather as an unmixed evil when unsanctified by the
blessing of God. The question was not new either to
the House or the country. A few years ago attention
was called to the subject, and what had been the snocess
of the two different parties competing for public favour?
The Earl of Harrowby, when a Member of that House,
took the lead in the agitation, for the purpose of calling
public attention to the want of Christian education, and
a larger sum was raised by voluntary subscription than
had been collected, lie believed, for any other purpose.
What had the Dissenters done? It was only the other
day that he saw it stated that they numbered one-half
of the population of England. The assertion was ludi-
crous, and scarcely required comment, but assuming that
they amounted to a fifth part, had they supplied a fifth
part of the sum raised by general subscription for edu-
cation? They had not. But the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Oldham was that the nation as a nation
should repudiate religion as the foundation of education.
—(Hear, hear.) And if the Hon. Member in his reply
should tell him that it would not be excluded from the
general teaching of the country, he answered, no thanks
to him, for he was doing what he could to exclude it.—
(Hear, hear.) So far as his motion was concerned, so
far did he exclude it from the natioral system. He gave
the Hon. Member for the West Riding credit, from his
own personal knowledge of him, for not wishing to
be a party to support such a proposition; but that was
not the question. He did, in fact support it by voting
in favour of a proposition that a nation ought to edu-
cate all its subjects without reference to religion. As
the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General said, the people
were called on in addition to all their voluntary sub-
scriptions, which were greater than those of any other
country in the world, to support a rate, the object of
which they abhorred. Was that language too strong?
Was it too strong to compel a Christian parent to edu-
cate his own children, or the children of his neighbours,
with an utter absence of all those hopes and lessons of
wisdom which the Bible could give, and leave them to
chance—aye, chance—for instruction in that which alone
rendered knowledge precious and life valuable? If they
compelled a parish to support a system which the major
part of the inhabhants abominated, were they not
doing that which, as far as in them lay, would bring
up a generation of infidels? He regretted that his
Right Hon. Friend and Colleague (Mr. Gladstone)
was not then present in the House ; and he
was authorised by his Right Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Gonlburn)
to express his regret that he also was absent; but he
(Sir R. Inglis) felt that the sentiments of both his Right
Hon. Friends had beon so fully and completely ex-
pressed in this House upon the subject, that it would be
well understood that nothing but unavoidable absence
bad prevented them from making their statements to the
House on this occasion. The Hon. Member for the
West Riding (Mr. Cobden) had asked them chat a
stranger was likely to think who had entered that House
for a first time, and listened to the debate of that night.
But he (Sir R. Inglis) would ask, could the stranger
have supposed it possible that this question having no
longer ago than the 7th of Juno last been discussed and
decided by a majority of 287 against 58 for the proposal
of the Honourable Member for Oldham, they would so
soon have had it again brought before them? And let
the House bear this in mind, that what the Honourable
Member then desired to engage the House to recog-
nize and admit was in the shape of a Bill, on which,
even if the second reading had been agreed to, the
House might have had some locus penitenticc on the fa-
taro stages; but they bad now to deal with a re-
solution which contained the very essence of that Bill,
and committed the House to the whole principle, and he
did trust that there would be such a majority recorded
against it that they would not again hear of the subject
another year. The Hon. Member for the West Riding
had alluded to the Irish colleges, in which he said the
principle of the Member for Oldham's plan was embo-
died and in practical operation. Upon that subject he
(Sir R. Inglis) saw no reason to alter the views he once
expressed; but if ho believed it to be an evil in the case
of Ireland, it was not the fact of its having been adopted
in Ireland that wonid justify him in giving his consent
to its adoption in England. On the contrary, in exact
proportion as he saw encouragement given to it else-
where, in that exact proportion was he bound to resist
its introduction here.—(Hear.) With the deep convic-
tion on his mind that the proposition—plausible to some
minds, but little adapted to catch the feelings or the
principles of the great body of the people of England—
was itself of a most deleterious character, he did trust
that the House would reject it now as they did last year;
and that if it were again brought forward it would
again be rejected by such majorities as to prove that the
principle of this House was at least Christian and reli-
gious, and that they would not satiation any plan of
edacation which was not founded on the love and fear of
God, our Creator end our Redeemer.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT protested against persons arguing
this question, and appealing to the amount of ignorance
and vice that we had to repress, as though thy alone
were the persons who objected to ignorance and de-
tested vice—that there particular system was, on that
question, the only system which he ought to adopt, and
that, if we did not adopt it, we were conniving at the
continuance of that ignorance and vice.—(Hear, hear.)
There was no question that the system of education in
this country must be religious as well as secular; and
he believed if the Bible were excluded from schools we
should not be able to get children to attend them.—
(Hear, hear.) In this country, too, it was his firm be-
lief that no educational system could be successful which
was not founded upon the full development of the sys-
tem of each religious denomination. He himself was a
Churchman, but he did not for one moment undervalue
the labours of the dissenting bodies. He knew how
much we were indebted to them—(llear)—he rejoiced
to witness their activity in this field; and ho hoped the
differences which had hitherto existed between the Privy
Council and some of the educational societies in England
would soon bo put an end to. Very many of those dif-
ferences had arisen upon points respecting which agree-
ment was more easy than might ho imagined; and he be-
lieved that everything the Committee of Privy Council had
urged and desiredto be adopted, they might haveobtained
by "recommendation," though they had failed when they
insisted upon stipulations. In fact, it was contrary to
our habits of self-government, and an invasion of our
municipal and parochial system, to have particular stipu-
lations enforced from a central board, though we were
willing to take them from experience, and on the high
character of the gentlemen composing the Committee, if
they came to us as simple " recommendations.—(Hear,
hear.) In the present day there were very numerous
bodies of Irishmen in our large towns, the majority of
whom were Roman Catholics; and even if it wore for
no other reason than this, he did hope the Government
would apply themselves to the discovery of some method
of increasing religious instruction which might be sup-
ported without doing violence to the religious feelings of
the people. Tho lion. Member for Oldham had stated
that religious instruction would be supplied from other
sources than the schoolmaster. And that was the case
undoubtedly with the rich, but it was not so with the
poor, for whatever education was to be had by the child
of the poor man must be given him at the :claw', and
the school only; and if we forbade religious education
at school we practically debarred him from all education
whatever. In conclusion the Right Hon. Gentleman
said that he did not think the plan of the Hon. Member
for Oldham was one which the people of this country
would accept. A Divine authority had said, " Suffer
little children to come unto me;" but by this proposition
they said practically, " Suffer them not to come unto
me." He should, therefore, vote against the motion.
Mr. L. lIEYWORTH said he was persuaded that the
voluntary principle would ultimately succeed in giving
the people all the education that was needed, and in the
best shape in which it could be given. And thinking the
system proposed by the Hon. Member for Oldham a most
vicious system, he should decidedly vote against the
motion.
Mr. FOX, in reply, said that when he took into ac-
count the principle with which Sir R. Inglis had started,
that knowledge was an evil, he ceased to be surprised at
what would otherwise have been the astounding misap-
prehension at which the Hon. Baronet had arrived as to
the opinions he (Mr. Fox) entertained, and the principles
he advocated. He trusted the Hon. Baronet was singular,
or nearly so, in that opinion, for ho believed that we
could not engage in the pursuit of any study, nor could
any science be unfolded to the mind, without a religious
tendency.—(Hear, hear.) He had always understood
that it was the business of the ministers of religion to
ace after the religious education of the children of
their flocks. From all the information he had re-
ceived on the subject of the National Schools in
Ireland, he was led to believe that the children in those
schools were remarkable for the clearness and extent of
their religious knowledge. And yet the reading of the
Scripture extracts even was not a matter of obligation
in them. He thought, therefore, that he was justified
in referring to the state of the Irith National Education
schools as a convincing argument in favour of the propo-
sition be had submitted to the House. It was said that
was a measure to exclude religion; but it might as well
be said that it was a measure to exclude the sun. The
people of this country were essentially a religious peo-
ple; and he had no apprehension but that religion would
be taught to those who might receive any education
whatever. He would develope the religious propensities
of children; but he would not do that by the same
agency by which he would impart to them other
branches of instruction, because that agency was not
available for that purpose.
The House then divided, and the numbers were—

For the motion ... ... 49
Against it ... ... 139
Majority against the motion ... --90
THE HOP DUTY.

Mr. LODGES rose to ask tor leave to bring in a
Bill for a reduction of the Excise duty on hops. The
amount of the duty at present was 2d. per lb, with an
addition of 5 per cent.; and he proposed to reduce it to
Id. per lb. He also proposed that the duty at present
owing should be paid to the furl amount. Formerly hops
had not been cultivated in this country, but had been
imported from Flanders. They bad sublequently been
planted hero with considerable success. In the year
1711 a duty of Id. per lb. was first laid on English hops,
and a duty of 3d. per lb on foreign hope. In the year
1804 Mr. Pitt had doubled the duty on English hops,
and had at the same time very considerably increased
the duty
-
on foreign hops. From the year 1819, when
the difficulty of paying the Government duty commenced
down to the present time, the difficulty had gone on in-
creasing, and the profits of the farmer had gono on di-
minishing to sueh On extent that it was impossible for