The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-14 00:00:00

unfounded imputations upon the Juries of Kilkenny. At
the very assizes to which he alluded every Whitefoot that
was prosecuted was convicted, and the acquittal of the
prisoners in the Carrickshaugh case was owing to the want
of sufficient evidence against them. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman went into a long detail of the circum-
stances connected with those trials to show that that was
the case, and then he proceeded to say that he was not
surprised at the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's advocacy
of this measure. It was a measure that would he hailed
with delight by men beneath whose factious tyranny
Ireland had long suffered, and was, it would seem, still
to suffer—by men who had hearts of stone, souls of
and fangs of iron—by the remnant of an expiring faction
that long bad possessed the domination of that country,
and eho had foul y used it.—( (-fear.) The Honoura-
ble Member bad favoured the House with an extract
from one of Baron Smith's late polities' dissertations.
Was it hemming, he (Mr. O'Connell) would ask, for that
Learned Judge to make such an address to the Grand Jury
o: the county of Armagh, where no such offences as those
to which he alluded had been committed, and where there
was no reason whatever for his delivering himeelf of such
a political essay ? Perhaps the reason for his doing so might
he fount in the rumour that had gone abroad, that the
Learned Judge was negotiating with Government to have
his son appointed as his successor on the bench. If there
was any foundation for that rumour, they might expect
many more political essays from that Learned Judge.
The murder that had recently taken place in the county of
Waterline!, and which had been adverted to that evening,
was a most atrocious one, and the perpetrators of it de-
served the severest punishment of the law ; but was it not
puerile to cite it in support of such a measure as that be-
fore the House? Did the Waterford ruffians murder a boy
in order to prevent him from disclosing a crime that, thank
God, had never been known or heard of in Ireland ?
(" Hear, hear," from the Irish Members.) Did the
diabolical wretches, first having made him the victim of
their infamous practices, then brutally destroy him, that
he might not discover upon them,—beat out his brains
with savage ferocity, and throw him into the canal? Oh !
there was no law, there was no justice in this country
with such horrible deeds staring them in the face, it was
absolutely necessary that they should pass such a measure
as this for England, and m eke martial law universal
throughout the kingdom. —(Cheers from the Irish
Member s. )
Mr. M. O'FERRALL would be as ready as any man
to strengthen the hands of Government, for the purpose of
putting down the atrocious system that prevailed in Ireland,
but it should be done in the way recommended by the
Committee of last session. The Hon. Member was about
to propose an amendment, when he was reminded by the
CHAIRMAN that the amendment of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin had not yet been disposed of.
Mr. SHAW was not a judge of the land, but even if he
were, had he been wholly unconnected with the trials in
question, he did not see how it would be unbecoming on
his part to give an opinion on the subject, and he fancied
that he had as good a right to do so as the prisoner's
counsel. He would repeat, that in the cases to which he
had alluded the juries in Kilkenny did not dare to do their
duty. The moment that the acquittal of the prisoners in
the Carrickshaugh cases was known, bonfires were lighted
from hill to bill throughout the county, and it was obvious
those bonfires must have been ready prepared, in anticipa-
tion of the result, in order to convey the glad tidings
throughout the county of Kilkenny that the murderers
had been acquitted. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to
read a letter from a magistrate of the county of Kilkenny,
with regard to the result of those trials, and the general
state of that county. There being loud cries of " Name,
name," from some of the Irish Members, the Hon. Member
said that the magistrate from whom be derived this
information cv,:, one upon whose character and respecta-
bility he could nay, but Ire would not name him, and for
this reason—that if be did his life would not be safe a
single moment where be wa..—(Loud cries of " Hear.")
They were told by some Hon. Members who had spoken
that evening that the political agitation that had been car•
ried on in Ireland was of a most disinterested description,
and tbat the political agitators there were of a most dis-
interested character. He would deny that it was a disin-
terested agitation, and for this reason, which he believed
few that knew Ireland would dispute, that in point of
fact if that agitation bad not existed, most of those Hon.
Members whom he now saw below him—(the front op-
position bench was almost wholly occupied by Irish " re-
peal" Members)—would not be there that night.—(Ge-
neral and repeated cheers.) When those Hon. Members
had displaced from their natural position the landed pro-
prietors and wealthy gentry of the country—when upon
an outcry for a measure that they knew never would be
carried, they bad succeeded in ousting those gentlemen
from the representation of their native counties in that
House, was it to be endured that the sentiments of those
gentlemen, when they transmitted them here, should not
he stated to the House?—(Hear.) As to what the Hon.
Member for Dublin had said about the remnant of an ex-

piring fiction, he (Mr. Shaw) would only say in reply,
that he had never belonged to any club or association in
l►is life, while the individual who had thus att irked him
had spent his life in fictions at,itation, ,nd would lather
die titan live without it.—(Hear.) The Hon. M-mber
concluded by apoloa►zing to the Hon. Member for Dublin
for the warmth of his observations, which had been occa-
sinned by what had fallen from that Hon. Member.
Mr. O'CONNELL did not want an apology. He was
in the habit of being maligned, and he did not mind it.
He had agitated, and he had agitated successfully, against
that faction which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman now
publicly disclaimed. But before that Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's meats were known—and no one was more
ready to do justice to his well-known merits in the situa-
tion he now filled than he (Mr. O'Connell) nal—that
faction placed him where he was, in the office of Recorder
of Dublin, and they could place whom they pleased there,
and the rest of the Irish bar had no chance of competing
with the object of their choice. He must protest against
the Learned Gentleman's calling his (Jr. O'Connell's)

clients at the Kilkenny trials " murderers." The Hon.
Gentleman had brought forward his red box too, hut the
red box of the Right Hon. Secretary was quite sufficient.
Were they to legislate on such tales as the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had read to them, and that too upon
anonymous au hority ? If he had any material facts to
state, why did he not communicate them to Government?
Were they to legislate upon the statements of such a vo-
lunteer Attorney-General, who usurped the functions of
the Ministers, and had a little clique of correspondents of
his own ? He flung back the attack which the Hon.
and Learned Maintier had made upon those Members who
had been sent there by the Irish people. He denied that
they had obtained their seats there by means of agitation.
Were the representatives of Kerry, which was never more
quiet,—were the representatives of Meath, which was
never more tranquil--were the representatives of the
county of Cork, which was never in a more peaceable
condition, returned to that House by means of agitation ?
It was a gross calumny against a set of as_ independent
gentlemen as ever were in that House.—(" Hear, hear,"
from the Irish Members.)
Mr. MORGAN O'CONNELL— The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman has called Mr. Steele " a seditious
maniac :" as Mr. Steele is not here to defend himself, I,
as his friend, will answer for him, and I say that there
never was a more unfounded sta,ement made, and I give it
my most direct, positive, and unqualified contradiction.
Mr. FINN said that the magistrates of Kilkenny did
not do their duty, and that they had only themselves to
blame for the state in which the county was.
Mr. LAMBERT spurned with the most sovereign con-
tempt the in.inuation that the gentlemen who sat around
him had been sent to that House by agitation.—(Cries of
" Older.") He did not conceive that his expressions
were too strong. He repeated, that they did not come to
that House biassed by any undue influence. But when
the Hon. Member talked of agitation, did he not forget
that he himself obtained his seat by agitation
the agitation of the Reform Bill? His opinion of the
measure was, that it was concocted for the purpose of
collecting tithe, and for that alone.—(Question, question,
and Withdraw.)

Mr. O'CONN ELL would not press the question to a
division, but withdraw his amendment.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD rose, but was immediately inter-
rupted by loud and repeated cries of " Question." He
persevered, however, and commenced some remarks on
the description of the murder given by the Right lion.
Gentleman (Mr. Stanley) amidst great confusion. The
Hon. Member concluded by desiring to be informed how
the Bill would impart greater security for the punishment
of murder than at present existed under the law.—(Ques-
ti,)n, question. )

The CHAIRMAN then rose for the purpose of putting
the question, when

Mr. BUCKINGHAM stood up, but the noise which
itninudiitely succeeded, occasioned by coughing, and cries
of ai Question," was so extreme, as to induce the Hon.
Illember to resume his seat. Upon this
Mr. HUME rose, and declared that if the Hon. Mem-
ber were not allowed to express his opinion on the ques-
tion before the House, he (Mr. Hume) would at once
move that the Chairman leave the chair and report pro-
gress. Did they wish to prevent their opponents from
being heard ?

DI -. BUCKINGHAM proceeded to advocate the alte-
ration of the preamble of the Bill. He contended that it
was of the utmost importance that the truth or falsehood

of the preamble should be decided, inasmuch as all the
consequent parts of the Bill depended on it.
The CHAIRMAN then put the original question, that
the preamble of the Bill be postponed, which was agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN next put the question, that the first
clause stand part of the Bill, and proceeded to read it as
follows :—" Be it further enacted, by the King's most
excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of
the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the
same, that it shall be lawful for the Lord Lieutenant, or
other Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland,—"
Mr. O'CONNELL .here rose, and proposed, as an
amendment, to insert after the word "Ireland" the 4)llom-
in :—" By the consent and authority of the Judges of the
Court of King's Bench, in Ireland, or any two of them."
Toe Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, that the object of
his motion was to make the sanction of two judicial per-
sons, who would be immediately responsible to Parliament
for their act, necessary to the prohibition or suppression
of meetings and assemblies. The clause went to vest this
power in the Lord-Lieutenant alone, the power of inter-
dicting any meeting of any kind, civil, political. or reli-
gious. Ut.der the authority of that clause the Lord-
Lieutenant might suppress all corporation meetings; nay,
he might even extend his interdiction to hunting, and every
kind of social assemblies. How monstrous was such an
extension of authority ! It was really without limit. The
Lord• Lieutenant might, armed with the powers conferred
on him by the Bill, forbid the meeting of any two persons
in Ireland, anti this without having recourse to evidence
of its dangerous tendency delivered on oath, without, in-
deed, the slightest necessity being shown for its sup-
pression, without information, in short, without any other
reason than his own pleasure--
" Stet pro ratione voluntas."

The Hon. and Learned Member concluded by observing
that he had so shaped his amendment as not to render the
sanction of all, but only two of the Irish Judges necessary
to legalize the suppression of any meeting.
Mr. STANLEY bad heard the amendments proposed
by the Hon. and Learned Member, himself a lawyer, with
the utmost surprise, because that Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber had on so many occasions, in terms as just as they
were strong, deprecated the mingling of judicial with ex-
ecutive functions. And now he of all men proposed to
introduce an amendment which must have the direct effect
of blending the judicial and political character. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman surely could not be igno-
rant of the way in which such a union would work. Un •
doubtedly the powers intended to be placed in the hands
of the Lord. Lieutenant by the Bill were very extensive ;
but they wtre strictly executive, as they ought to be, and
net mixed up with any thing of a judicial authority ; for
what could be more injurious—more decidedly dangerous
to the due and impartial administration of the law, than
first of all to call in the opinion of a Judge as to the par-
ticular tendency of a meeting, then to act upon that opi-
nion, and afterwards to apply to the same Judge to decide
upon its legality? The Lord-Lieutenant was certainly
responsible to Parliament for the abuse of those powers ;
but though he were not, his entire independence of action
would be 10—nay, 100-fold preferable to the extension of
judicial authority proposed by the Hon. and Learned Gen.
tleman. On the grounds he had stated, therefore, he ob•
jected to the amendment.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that dec'amations in favour of
the preservation of the Constitution cause with a peculiar
grace from the Right Hon. Secretary, who had done his best
to trample on the Constitution, as far, at least, as it re-
lated to Ireland ; who now, by that very Bill, was about
to put down charity meetings and meetings totally un-
connected with political feeling.—(No, no.) He
contended that the Right Hon. Secretary was putting
these assemblies down by an'icip awn, and consequently
advocating a measure which would starve the orphan
With respect to the immediate question, could an3thing
he (Mr. O'Connell) bad said warrant the conclusion that
he wished to mix up judicial with legislative functions ?
Were no other judges to be found to try the legality of a
meeting but those who had previously pronounced an opi-
nion of its tradency
Mr. Sergeant PERRIN objected to the transfer which
the Bill proposed to make of the legislative poker to the
executive. He entertained, however, very strong doubts
as to the illegality of the meetings and assemblies which
were pointed at by the Bill. They certainly did not come
within the scope of the common law, and the danger of
their continuance consequently rested with the Govern-
ment, which was subjected to all the odium which such
a state cf things naturally excited. He thought, however,
it would be more injudicious, and more generally dangerous
to liberty, to vest the Judges with the power of interdict-
ing meetings, than to transfer that power at once to the
Lord.. Lieutenant.

Lord ALTHORP should hardly have thought that the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman needed to have declaimed so
touch about the Constitution, on the subject of a Bill
which was a suspension of the Constitution. There was
no alternative in this case but to place power in the hands
of individuals. Experienced men, in past times, had
attempted to define illegal meetings, but the law had been
always evaded. The only mode, therefore, was to enable
the Lord-Lieutenant to declare meetings illegal. In the
only attempt of this kind made hitherto, the object had
succeeded.
Colonel DAVIES looked at the clause with considerable
alarm, as it invested a Lord-Lieutenant with very arbitrary
powers.
Mr. W. PETER said that the question had been rested

on its proper grounds by the Noble Lord (Althorp).

was not, as the Hon. and Learned M-mher for Dublin,
and others, had stated, a question of liberty, on the une
hand—of despotism on the other. The real question to
be decided by the House was simply this—whether the
danger to be apprehended from the agitation and outrage,
now prevailing in Ireland, was or was not greater than
any danger that could result to the country from intrust-
ing these increased powers to the Lord Lieutenant, for the
purpose of suppressing the evil ? No man was more op-
po-ed than he (Mr. Peter) was to the existence of all un-
nece-sary power, wherever vested—whether in the hands
of One or many. Still, however, it must be recollected,
that it was not so much on the exact quantity or amount
of power Riven, as on the responsibility or irresponsibility
under which it was exercised, that the security and free-
dom of the people would depend. In the present case,
there would be responsibility. Both the Lord Lieutenant
and his Ma.Hity's Ministers would be responsible to a
Reformed House of Commons for the manner in which
these powers were exercised.
Mr. O'CONNELL complained of the deplorable and
pitiful ignorance of the Hon. Member, in supposing that
what he had stated was really the question before the
House.—(Considerable noise. )

Mr. W. PETER, in reply, defended himself against
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and appealed
to the House whether he had said any thing to justify
the violent attack that had been made upon him.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The question was, whether there
should be freedom or slavery in Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.)
Would the framers of this Bill mitigate this clause, or
must the Lord. Lieutenant have the power to declare what
meetings should take place? He liked to bear the talk
about agitation. The present Ministers heard this charge
with admirable mock-modesty, when they bad themselves
been aided by agitation.—(Hear.) How did they sit
there ?—(Cheers from the Opposition.) By agitation.—
(Cheers.) They had been placed on their pedestal by the
Birmingham Political Union—(Cheers)—but this was
considered a rotten pedestal for Ireland. Who was,, it
made the late Lord Ellenborough a Privy Councillor and
a Lord Chief Justice at the same time?—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. STANLEY said, that as to a Lord Chief Justice
being a Privy Councillor, it had been always the practice
for him to be so.

Mr. O'CONNELL—And a Cabinet Minister?
Mr. STANLEY—As to a Cabinet Minister, be could
only say if he had been a Minister at the time he should
not have supported the appointment.—(Hear.) But he
rose merely to ask the House whether it was proposed to
bear with the language which had been used by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin?—(Cheers.) A❑ Hon.
Member for an English county had made a remark, and
h al been met by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman with a
charge of deplorable and pitiful ignorance.—(Cheers on
the Ministerial side, answered by cheers on the other, in
which Mr. O'Connell's voice was distinctly heard.) Such
language was well adapted for the volunteers of Ireland—
(Cheers as before)—and for those out of doors for whom
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman wasted so much of his
time and talents ; but it was not consistent with the
forms and practice of the House.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
Member behind him (Mr. Peter) had said that the ques-
tion was whether the Lord-Lieutenant should be intrusted

with a power beyond the law, or whether the system of
agitation should continue in Ireland; and that had not
been stated ignorantly, for it was the question which the
Committee had to decide.

fuller;
gOa',CeO,Nv
ay. L and Mr. Humz rose together; the
Mr. HUME (amidst calls for Mr. O'Connell) expected
that the Right Hon. Gentleman would set an example of
the manner in which Members should conduct themselves.
--(Cheers from the Opposition, echoed by the other side.)
He did not rise to defend every one of the expressions used
by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but to deprecate
(sic) that every question which the Right Hon. Secre-
tary spoke on became a personal question.—(Noise.)
What had the Right Hon. Gentleman to do with the
volunteers of Ireland ? What right bad be to taunt