The Sun.
London, England, 1834-03-18 00:00:00

DISSENTERS-ENGLAND.

Sir G. S rAuN FUN pie4ented pe iiions from the
Dien yrs of Rigby and 'I hroop, in Hainp4hire, Nunea-
tun, Rugby, and Ather,ione, WJrwiekshire, praying fur
relief.

Mr. MILDMAY presented a petition from the Dis-
sent, rs of Winchester, to the same 'fleet.
Mr. BRISCOE presented a petition from the Die
stnters of Y,,rk Chap. I, Walworth, to the same eff,
Sir GEORGE GREY presented a petition from Tre-
rel awe,. th,, Who m Bill.
Mr. RICE TREVOR presented a petition from the in
hahitiots of Llameavon, for a repeal of the malt tax.
Mr. PLUMPTRE moved for a return of the minutes
to he hid on the table of the courtmAtial held on Cap-

tain Aitcheson.
Lord SANDON presented two petitions fir the better
oSservdnee of the Sabbath Day from Cuester and its
neighbourhood.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from the dis-
senters of Castletown, praying for relief.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the Speaker do not
issue his warrant for a new writ for the borough of
Carrickfergus befner the 3d of May.
Mr. LEONARD gave notice that he would move for
certain returns on the 25th of March.

A Mamma presented a petition from Wootton Under_
lodge, praying 3or relief to the Dis•enters.
COMPULSORY PAYMENT OF CHURCH RATES
Mr. DIVETT, atter presenting two peti.ions from
Diss ntrrs, praying for relief, brought forward his inotit.n
tor the extinction of compulsory p.yment of ci.uich rates
oughuut England and Wales. That subject, which he
had placed on the books of the house at the latter end
last session, and renewed this session, was of a

I most momentous nature. He would be of liged to claim
a large share of ,hat indulgence of the house which was
always granted to those who so vety seldom tre•pussed
upon its attention. From the first time that he bad paid any
mention to the Subject o t the c •mpulsury payment of church
,aces, he had always looked upon it as a subject of great
grievance, and although he 1 It grateful to his Majesty ~
inin,sters for the beneficial reforms which they hat intro.
duced, he telt also that now was the time when they
ought to remove the grievances mider which the dis-
senters laboured. The opinion of the house ought now
to be given upon this subject with a view to its
final adjustment.—(Hear.) The meaning of his mo-
tion was exclusively for the abolition of church rates,
but it was connected .with many other burdens under
which Dissenters laboured, and it was also mixed up with
church reform. The noble earl at the head of his Ma-
jesty's government bad been reported to say in another
place that he would resist the vain attempt to
abolish the compulsory payment of church-rates as he
would resist the attempt to separate church and state.
He (Mr. DO deeply regretted that determination' for so
far from its having a tendency to uphold the connection
netween church and state, it would ti nd more than any

hing else to its separa ion. The house was aware that in
the course of the last two months there had been a vt-ty
Increasing disposition, not only on the part of the Dis-

s, niers, but also on the part of members of the establish, d
church, to do away with church rates adogether, and
hat feeling bad been growing for several years past.
He believed that one great eause of the present sir, ng
reeling on the part of the dissenters, arose front a measure
so tar back as the,year 1819. In that year an act passed
through the house, which granted one million for the
ouiliting of churches.—(Hear.) This was paid equally
by the dissenters and the churchmen ; but in many
districts when the dissenters exceeded in number the
members of the established church, they were not only
taxed with this million to build churches, but incurred a
constant tax to keep those churches in repair. Timis was
a very strong ground of complaint on the part of as-
s-nters.—( Hear.) It was but right to state the amount
paid for church rates, which be was enabled to do from a
return of the local taxation ending 11Iarch, 1627. 'flie
ci.urcb rates were there stated to amount to 564,0001.,
which formed a very important item of the whole
amount of the local taxation of the country._
Hear, hear.) The sum thus received was according
to the account expended in the following manner :—The
account did nut go into detail, but state.l in round

itumbers—for the repair of churches 248.0001 , organs
an i bells 41,000/., bread and wine 46,000/., salaries
E., clerks and sextons 126,000/.—(l-I,ar, hear.) This
Appeared to barn to be a most serious exttavag..nce,
trial extremely impolitic, as being not only disgusting to
tie feelings of the Dissent. rs, but extremely injurious to
he establishment. In calling for the ab.,lition of this
e•s, he might be ask. 11 with very great propriety
/low ha, proposed to make up for it. His opinion
was, that it was not at all right to charge any man
at-another religion for the suppot t ors religion from which
oe dissented. It was said that it would be impossible to
•tiaintain the church ❑pon those term•; but let it be re-

•ollected th it the di.sen t,rs had now 8 000 placer of tvor-

ship, and that they raised a sum of not less than one
million a yell-, by voluntary contributions, for the
inaintenince of their respective churches.—(Heir, bear.)
lie stiou.d be able to show that the sum raised by Dis

enters for Missionary and other pnrposes far I 'weeded
hat raised oy the establishment. In discussing this

que.tion, he was anxious to bepatate it altogether from the
que-tion of tithes, for anxious as he was to remove an
unjust position open the Dissent.-rs, he did no,
.cish to touch that property which our ancestors
shauld remain for the support of religion.—
( Hear.) He knew there was no dsposi,ian to
4o away with the sinecures in the church, but he did not
wi.h to attack the church, at the same time lie thought
the money thus consumed ,ught to he applied to otner
purposes. Thtre appeared to be 300,0001. per annum

ostensibly applied to ,he ,•uppoi t of divine service in ca-

thedrals, and in tact the real amount was much larger
1n the case of the cathettal at Exeter 12.000/. psi
inflow was provided, and he understood from good
authority that if the property from whence that sum was
derived wsi let at a tack rent, it would produce7o,ooo/.
"1 here were many instances of such property being
propriated to the views of individuals, and in end

a way as to beggar the sucee4SOr and frustrate eof iginal
object. With regard to the progress of dissent, it would
be found to he considerably granter in Wales than the urn-
greos of the estahlishuiet. In the last six month. 73 000/.
I ad been raised in Wales for the purposes religious worship.
The progress of dissenters had been very great; the num-
ber of chapels increased, the congregations that frequented
them became more numerous, and with their num-
bers the feelings of hostility to the establishment
always kept place.—(Hear.) No hing could do more
to conciliate the good wishes of the dissent rs, and to
avert their hostility from the established church, than by
according such claims as were just, but notwithstanding
their justice the concession would be received with
gratitude.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Nothing would tend
more to the interest of the church, or to fix its own
stability than by extending the rightsthat were demanded ;
for in all extensive parishes and large towns thete was a
hostile feeling towards the church, whieh though growing
stronger every day. it was not imposs lite to lessen if not
remove. He claimed the induleence of the house while he
was trespassing on their patience ; but he received many
papers at so late an hour that evening, that it was impos-
sible for biro to arrange tfiein so oil to come at the infor-
mation they contain-d with any degree of facili►y.
He, for hit own part, would entreat of that house
most earnestly to reform the whole church by removing
the grounds of complaint. Inroad, were made every day
on the church by the dissenters. Let hon. members look
back to the time of the reformation. Let them consider
whether the Roman Catholic religion was not app trendy
as wow, at least it was in temporal power, as the
established religion of those kingdoms, and still the
strong current of public opinion came on rapidly, and
taught them at the time that practice at variance with
the spirit rf Christianity could not stand against it. The
established church was situated as the catholic religion was
at the time of the reformation, as regarded shores. He would
remind them that what was possible then was equ so
now ; and the dissenters were not less zealous or less
effectual in ream' ine Christianity to it orig;nal principles.
He was happy to see better feeling springing out from
the universities upon this subject.—(Crie• of " Heas."-_
Within the last few hours he had been informed that
a petition signed by fif y-f .ur out of 150 of the
I • do of the University of Cambridge had been forw trdtd
praying that tt e cla:ms of the Dissenters to be adiiii to ,
to the U,•iversities 1-f England be taken into the favour-
able considetat on of that house.—(L, u I c ies of " Hear,
hear.") That formed a strong contra-t to the Unit ersity
of Oxford which had in the yeas 1829 rejected the
right honourable baronet whom he did not then see
in his place, in consequence of his having declared
himself friendly to civil anti religious liberty.—( Hear.)
and had, during the present year, elected as iis chancellor
a noble duke whom, he supposed, was the only p rsun
they could get to represent their an. iquated opinions__
(Laughter and hear.) He (Mr. D ) had brought for.
ward his motion without any wish to excite ill feelings
on either side. His object was to releive the people
from the grievances which they justly complained of, and
without which it would be impossible to have peace or
tranquillity in the country. There was one obstacle, he
feared, to this happy consummation, arising from the
indisposi.inn of the clergy to give up any portion of the
fees to which they considered themselves entitled. A
striking example of that sort might he seen in the parish
of St. Asaph (as we nnderatowl.) The presentation to
the living had been purchased for the sum of 40,0001.,
and in the year 1827, a Cemetery Bill had been procured
in which it was provided by a clause, that no
individual whatever should be interred, until the

(LEFT SPEAKING.)

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MJRCH 17.
The Lord Chancellneq Speech concluded from our Second
Edition of la%t night.)
_ _ _

- ,
He thanked the nnbte lord for the op-
portunity given him of stating these matters. If he had
known that he should have been called on to discuss this
matter, he would have b.en better prepared than at pre-
sent with the particulars to make nut the statements he
had advanced. He should now say one word upon ano.
ther subject. There were said to lea many del•cts in the
system of appeals to that house. One defect of the sys.
tem especially wit, that while the whole of their lord
ships were supposed to sit to hear appeals in that houv,
they did in fact generally devolve the duty on those of
their number who happened to he profea•innal men.
The consequence of this was, that he, who was the
Jut'ge in the Court of Chancery. sit in this house after-
wards, and heard the appeal from his no, judgment. This
tv,isi highly inennverilent; it was k.,.pingthe word of promise
to the ear, but breaking it to the judgment ; for the appeal
was in relity a re hearing before the same judge who had
decided in the court below, To avoid this as much as
possible, the noble and learned earl who had held the
Great Seal for so m.ny years had constantly had reconrse
to the assistance of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland....a
IMIZe scar,ly inferior to himself in the extent of his
I-Itning. In the same manner, he (the Lord Chancellor)
now de-iced to have the assistance of any equity ju'ce.
He had had that assistance from his noble and learned
friend Lord Plunket, while that noh'e and learned inrd
was in England, during the preceding sessions; and ae-
efirdinyly, when his noble and learned friend Lad been
here, he had betaken himself to hear English and Irish
appeals. It so happened, however, that this year he
could not possibly have the assistance of that noble and
learned lord. The ins'ant be had it, and if he had it
not soon lie should not longer delay, he would under-
go the task of sitting ; but he believed that their
lordships would rather think that he had good reason to
wish to postpone the hearing of English and Irish appeals
in equity cases till he could have the assistance of his
noble and learned friend. He was aware that he had the

power to hear them, and to say, as some of his prede-
cessors had done, " I see no reason to chance the ()Pinion
I entertained in the Court of Chancery, and I affirm the
decree with costs." He knew he had such a power ;
but there were two objections to it : the one was, that
justice should he done in such a way that the suitor
ought to be satisfied with it ; and the ocher was, that

justice should be done in such wise that the suitor may
he sai.fi.d, if it be possible. Under these circumstances
he had given no ire that he should not adj,,urn from the
Court of Chancery. He bad had a proper and most re
spectful, but still urgent representation made to him on
the subject. He had said that the vacation would he
longer, and that it would be better to sit now than in

-.--
the vacation ; but their answer was, that the course of
that Court had been to adjourn at this time ; that m• n
made their arrangements upon it; that their health re-
quired that there should he some ',mission of labour ;
and he felt the force of these arguments, and that he bad
no right to call on gentlemen to exhaust themselves;
therefore he had said that he would make arrangements
to preclude the necessity of this sitting. The consequence
of this would be, that the Court of Chancery would rise
on 'I hursday before Good Friday, and not sit again till
the Monday or Tuesday of the week after next. Their
Lordships would adjourn over Good Friday, and sit the
whole of the Easter week, a course which they pursued
three years ago. The consequence of this would be, that
sitting during that time, and having an arraneem( nt by
which that sitting could he continued during the rest of
that period, the whole of the time might he occupied
up to the first day of Term. So that b foie Easter Term
there would have been a greater number of sittings, and
a disposal of judicial business in th.t House, not to men-_
tion the Cott' t of Chancery, than there ever had been at
any one time before.

Lord WYNFORD made some observations, which We
regret to say were wholly in.udible in the gallery. He
then referred to the Lord Chancellor's statement re:pect.
ing the impropriety of pressing too closely upon the ap-
peals, and observed, that on that point he totally dis-
sented from the noble and learned lord, for he believed
that the principle applicable to the case of appeals was
very dlerent from that supposed by the noble and learned
lord. The great cause of appeals, the great object in view
in making them, generally was the delay that must take
place before the judgment could be carried into execution.
If that reason were taken away, and it would be taken
away by pressing closely upon the list of appeals, there
would not be so many of them brought; for the reason
of bringing them—the advantage of delay—would then
he at an end. He begged to confine his observation.,
however, to Scotch appeals only. This remark, however,
he would make will regard to the appellant jurisdiction,
that however objectionable it might be for a judge to re•
view his own decisions, suitors would go to that house un-
less they were actually prohibited. They might etablish
courts of appellee jurisdiction in Westminster-hall; but
o long as that house retained the power of ultimate deci-
sion, so long would suitors never be satisfied till they ob-
tained than ultimate decision.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that if the reasons as-
sipneil by the noble and learned lord on the woolsack for
not having heard appeals up to the present day were valid,
they must be equally valid for pursuing a similar course in
all future years. With respect to English and Irish appeals.
theref;ite, it would be convenient for the suitors at once
t t be informed that they would not in succeeding ses•ions
come on for hearing before the 15th of Ap il, as such
an intimation would rid them of a great deal of anxiety.

With respect to Scotch appeals, lie apprehended that in
all probability the same reasons as the noble and learned
lord had given for follovving the course pursued in the pre-
sent session would be found to exist in future years, and
in that case it would Ikewise be convenient that the
Scutt+ suitors should be informed without delay that the
practice of the existing cession would in future form the
rule of their lordships' proceedings. He confessed that
the noble and learned lord's explanation was so far satis-
factory to him (Lord Ellenborough), inasmuch as he did
think it would be more convenient to the counsel, and con-
sequently more convenient to the suitors, that the English
and Irish appeals should be heard at the period when the
counsel were employed in Westminster-hall, than when
theywere engaged in Lincoln's Inn-hall. He was not, how-
ever, entirely satisfied with the reason assigned by the noble
and Liarned lo,d for not having yet heard any of the Scotch
appeals. The noble and learned lord had stated that the
Scotch suitors were not prepared with any case for hearing
at the end of last session. This statement did not in the
least surprise him (Lord Ellenborough). The session of
list year was one of unusual length, and it might very
fait ly be supposed that the Scotch suitors never calculaied
on its extending almost until the end of August. Besides,
he was informed that the usual course of proceeding was
for appeals to be entered in one session, and to be heard in
the next. The Scotch suitors, therefore, had no expecta-
tion of their cases, entered in last session, coming on for
hearing in the same year. But surely there existed no
reason why these parties should not have been heard since
the commencement of the session, particularly as it would
be as convenient to the counsel to attend their lordships'
house during March as during the Easter holydays. He
begged to say that he did not impute to the noble and
learned lord that he was an idle man, nor had he said that
the noble and learned lord was not diligently employed in
the Chancery Court ; but he did think that, as the noble
and learned lord sat in that house to hear causes, their
lordships had a claim on some portion of his time, and
were at least entitled, when they saw the noble and learned
lord doing what had never been done by any of his pre-
dee-ssors, to inquire what were his reasons for deviating
from the usual practice, and to consider whether or not
those seasons were valid. He knew that the noble and
learned lord was much engarled in the Court of Chancery,
and believed that he ve,:s occupied to a very late period of
the night, or rather early hour of the morning, in prepar-
ing his judgments. He questioned not the noble and
learned lord's assiduity and industry ; all he wanted to
know was, why some portion of his time should not be
devoted to !Irani ,g appeal.; in that house?
'fhe LORD CHANCELLOR repeated what he had be-
fore stated, that he did not take the noble lord's inter-
ference in this matter in bad part. Indeed, be rather
thanked the noble lord for bringing the subject under
their lordships' notice. He complained not of the noble
lord's manner ; there was nothing discourteous about it,
inasmuch as he had not meant to insinuate, as he certainly
had not openly stated, that lie (the Lord Chancellor) was
an idle man. But with respect to the Scotch appeals, the
noble lord seemed to have entirely forgotten his (the Lord
Chancellor's) statement, when he said that this was the
first time of a Ctianceller not sitting in the House of
Lords before Easter. He (the Lord Chancellor) ha i
already stated, that in one instance Lord Eldon did not sit
judicially in that house once in the whole year, Lord
Gilled having attended in his place; and that Lord
laynelburs: was absent for half a year, during which pe-
riod Sir John Leach and Chief Boon Alexander sat for
the purpose of hearing appeals. He wished their lordships
to bear in mind that at the time of the absence of the
noble and learned lords just mentioned the arrears were
pressing, and that at the present moment there were ac-
tually no arrears of Scotch appeals. It was a fact that
at the end of last session he was proceeding with appea
entered at the commencement of the same session :
he was beating in July appeals entered no longer
before than January, and he only stopped for the
re sun he had already explained. But he was perfect'y
willing that they should be proceed d with, and he bagged
the Scotch suitors and solicitors to attend to what he was
ataout to say. He was now warned that there was a com-
plaint that the Scotch appeals were not heard. He
would take care, then, that they should he heard, hut the
parties must not quarrel with the judge that heard them.
His noble and learned friend (Lord Wynford), who had
just quitted the house, being always prepared and willing
to do his duty in that place, would be teady to hear
them, and the Scotch suitors, who complained that the
app-ids were not heard before Easter, might be assured
that they would henceforward be brought on. But he
Was not bound to have arrears in the Court of Chancery
for tt sir pleasure, and he would not. They must rest
satisfied with such judicial assistance as his noble and
learned friend the late Ceief Justice of the Comm, n
Pleas would give them, no doubt wi h perfect alacrity ;
and he hoped they would, as he knew they ought to,
receive it with thankfulness. Here, then, we., an end
of that complaint. Was h.- to be told that be was bound

;() give up the bu%ine.s of the Court of Chancery f r
he purptc.e of herring Scorch appeal.? He denied
hat he was. It was t nough for him, being itnpor.
tined on the subject, to say that the hu•iness should
'e done in his alts.-nce. This promise be now gave;

the app-ala should be heart, but he did not bind
nitn-elf to hear them. Let the parties look to that. lie
knew it would be exceedingly cony. n ent for same persons
if he were to sit in that house hearing Sciittin appeal-, and
allow the business of the Court of Chancery to get into
arrear. Then the complaint would be that the Court 01
Chirac ry was neglected ; that the business w,.s permitted
to get in art ear, and all for the purot
se of despatching
Scotch appeals in the House of Lords. Thin was not
alto.tether an imaginary charge; it was one which had
already been in ode against him. It had been said that
the Scotch business gave him no trouble; that lie could
hear Scotch appeals easily, but that it was much mole
laborious and difficult for hum to dispose of English suits
in the Court of Chancery, and th it therefore he preferred
sitting in the House of Lerds to decide the Scotch appeals.
He was determined that that charge should not be brought
iLiaitist him again ; and though, by taking the Scotch
busiti, as himself, he might put an end to all complaints
about arrears, raised in many instances by parties irritated
because their own cases were not taken out of the proper
turn, he at II should not do so, either to gratify them
or three other parties who wished for nothing better
than an opportunity of attacking him, as formerly, for
neglecting his duties in the Court of Chancery, and who
red nothing so much as the disagreeable fact—the non-
existence of air ars —(Cheers.)
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that as the noble and
learned laid bad thrown out an obscure intimation, some-
what in the nature of a menace, of the course to be adopted
with respect to Scotch business, it would be very important
that the parties interested in Scotch appeals should dis-
tinctly understand what the noble and learned bra's inten-
tions were. Did he mean to hear the Scotch appeals pre-
s nted this year at the end of the session, if it should he
sufficiently prolonged, or before Easter in the next year?
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he should answer
the noble lord's inquiry shortly, plainly, and distinctly.
He had said nothing about the end of the session, but he
intended to do exactly what his predecessors bad done
before him, and what one of them had preached by way of
advice, and practised by way of example—namely, to sit
in the Court of Chancery, and not in the House of Lords,
arid to leave his noble and learned friend to hear appeals
presented to their lordships.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought it was impossible
to give the Scotch suitors a more indistinct answer.
Toe LORD CHANCELLOR—They will underst d
it well enough.

The conversation on this subject then dropped, and the
house adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, 211Anex 17.
REPEAL OF THE MALT DUTY.
Mr. COBBETT, being called upon, said he rose to
offer to the house, with great submission to their better
judgment, his motion upon the malt duties. His
[notion was simply, that from and after the 6th day
of October next, the duty upon malt do cease. Before
atei
toril: itroc waseede n
d to the
that he s
s r diversreasonhsoud ay
inl respect
of
something
his
rela-
,ice to the numerical proportion which those who
would be more immediately benefitted by the
repeal of the malt duties bore to the rest of
the community. It was represented in that house that
the agricul ural part of the community was compa-
ratively very small—an insignificant uart of the com-
munity compared with the manufacturing part. The hon.
member for Middlesex told them they were a nation of
manufacturers, and the right hon. member for Manches-
' e.,-r slid that they were destined to he the manufacturing
of the world. Toe noble lord, the member for tar.
North, Riding of Yorkshire had told them that the agri-
cultural interest bore a email proportion to those who
were interested in the repeal of tie corn laws--(Hear.)
N error was more gross, or delusion niore fallacious,
than that, or ever so widely spread. He would hose
that the repeal of this tax would be as beneficial to the
manufacturers as to the agriculturists. It had been said
that the number of persons in the agricultural districts
was greater than that in the manufacturing districts, and a
reference was made to Guildford, in which it was said there
were 22 agricultural parishes and only one manufacturin_.
parish. Now the hon. member fur Guildford was the
owner of an entire parish, but wbq would suspect that he

ttglp,ownedouaroirtiincgtuhi
itmt
thhauseelehrls
shares,
aat: hsge
manufacturers
maaufacturlng part of the county ? On
the contrary, that to n, ruenirer old tell the house
p
nhst
t2g,
ertlneo
ef
years
byer:
eae
rsA dependantmaking
o areturn
g e
aebbntuanauluytrfrunae:c,risseus es
tt:trofehs(7).
that
,astovtnhoehdereoi were
rwbt
:eenurl
benefit
eve,
fiti
r
had been laid before the house, giving the number of
o
and those employed in inanulactures appeared to be nearly
manufac-
turing portion of th community accruing from the repeal of
the malt tax would be four times that the agricultura
population would derive. But that, however, was not
exactly the question. The hon. member fur Mary-
lebone had said that the repeal of the house and win
dow taxes would be the only thing to benefit the people.
Did the hon, member for Marylebone suppose that the
repeal of the malt tax would not have the effect of relieving
his constituents? Why there were resident in London a
thousand families, aye, he might say two or three thousand
families, who were constantly Occupied in making agricul
rural implements, in making ploughs, in making harrows,
in making drills, in making churns, in making presses,in
making tubs. Were these not the constituents of the hon.
member for Marylebone? Destroy the agricultural in
terest, and what would become of those families? Why,
they would all be starving. What were the salesmen oi
cattle ? What were the salesmen of seeds ? Were they
not inhabit ints of towns? What was all Mark-lane?
Were not all these persons deeply interested in the pros -
perity of agriculture ? What folly it was, then, to say
that the people in the towns had nothing to do with the
land. The fact was, that the interests of the one party
were closely connected with the interests of the other, but
if there was one more essential than the other, it was the
interest of the land. If the full amount of the malt tax
were paid
aidexirpiteonste in theheexche collectionquer,an of th
and if thereweetraex,noaned xtra-oerr
waste of the property of the people occasioned by it in
other ways, why then, if Government wanted the money
it certainly would be wrong to deprive them of it. Bat
if he could show, as he was quite prepared to do, that
besides the enormous expense of collection, the tax was
in many other respects burdensome and injurious to the
people, he thought he should have a right to call upon
the house to repeal it. The stamp tax, which produced
four millions annually, cost only 168,0001. in the col-
lection. Bat, of the whole expenses which attended
the collection of the excise, five-fifths were to he
ascribed to the collection of the milt duty.—(Hear.) In
fact, the country was paying above a million for what pro-
duced only about four millions and a half. But the ex•
pense of collection was not all. There was the great evil
which attended the monopoly occasioned by the malt tax.
The house tax, the window tax, and other taxes of that
description led to no monopoly. But the malt tax led
to a most extensive and injurious monopoly. Four mil-
lions of quarters of malt, at a duty of IL Bs. per quarter,
would cost the people only 6,6oo,oool.—whereas the
same quantity, with the cost of collecting the tar, and
with the burdens cast upon.it in other ways, actually did
cost the people 14,400,0001. So that this tax took from
the people, took from the landed proprietor, took from the
farmer, took from all the consumers of beer, nearly ten
millions more than they would have to pay if there were
no malt tax. But it would be said that somebody must
get the ten millions. His answer was that the Exchequer
did not get it. II it got into the Exchequer be should not
complain—but the Exchequer only received four millions
and a-half, for what cost the people fourteen millions and
a-half. The great maltsters, the great brewers, were the
people that got the money. The noble lord opposite had,
on a recent occasion, expressed his doubt whether the peo-
ple, if they had the means of doing so, would again take
to brewing at home, having formed a habit of receiving
their heer from the brewer. Talk of human beings losing
the habit of drinking home-brewed beer. It might as
well he said that they could lose the habit of consuming
victuals. In fact, brewing beer was precisely like making
t.-a. Beer could be brewed with as much ease as tea
could be made—and as to utensils, a porridge pot, holding
five gallons, formed an excellent boiler, and a wash-tub
answered admrably for a mash tub and a cooler. With
such means much better beer could be produced than any
with wnich the public brewer now furnished his customers.
The loss sustained by the farmer by not being able to brew
beer for his lab ,urers as formerly was considerable. It
might be said, let the firmer give the labourer money in
stead or beer; it was the same thing. But it was not the
same thing. The farmer could obtain more work done
fir one pound's worth of beer, than for two pounds in
money. There was nothing so useful, so necessary to the
farmer, as to have good beer for his labourers. It he had
none wh-n his labourer asked for beer at noon he would
tell hint so, and give hint 6d. instead ; what was the con-
sequence ? Why that down would go the scitbe, or the
rake, and the labourer would be off to the beer•shop,
where, perhaps, he would stay till three o'clock in the
when there
he werereq goodured beerit h
his
sn day'sthe work
la-
bourer was deeply interested in this matter; she was
‘l"wvo::riric7hdinhbge; miuwlglhyhetraednartsinfakifirly completed. The wife of the la-
'et-ply interested in keeping her husband at home ; and
when once be had got into the har•it of going to the public
house, nod indulging in all the laughter, and gossip, and
tippling of the place, it was with great oifficulty that he
caul(' he kept from it. But the greatest good that would
result front do- repeal of the malt tax would be the re-
storing of young lahourers to the habi, of living in the
farmer's house. Ti the malt tax alone it was to he
att ibuted that boys and young men front twelve
years old to two or three-aod-twenty did not live
entirely in the farmer's house, as they used formerly
to do, and as they ought always to do.—(Hear.)
When residing in farm houses, these young persons ban,
their holidays at Easter, at Whitsuntide, at fair times.
Unused to idleness and dissipation, they were tired of
them in a day or two, and re,uroeul with seat to their

labours. N.iw their whole life was a round of revelry
and deoauchery, without any in.ster or mistress to cons
ttol them, or to check their vicious propensities. But
it might be asked if it was possible to get back to the good
old system ? He could not say. Uudoubta Ily it would
be a work ol difficulty ; perhaps it could n ver be entirely
accomplished ; but at any rate means should be adopted
to prevent the labourers from remaining in their present
state. And as to a return to the system of allowing
them to live in their employers' houses, he was persu tried
that much might be done. One of the greatest objections
which the farmers, and the upstart gently who now lived
in farm-houses, hail to receive the labourers into their
houses, arose out of the malt tax; and the repeal of that
tax would go a great way to effect so desirable an object.
His film opinion was, that the repeal of the malt tax
would, more than any other measure, reconcile the people
of this country to the government. The people would
then say that reform had done them some good. The
hon. member concluded by moving, as an amendment to
the motion for going into the committee of supply, a
resolution, " that, from and after the sth of October next,
all the duties on malt shall cease and determine."
Mr. FIELDEN seconded the motion.
Lord ALTHORP concurred in much that had been
stated by the hon. member for Oldham. In the first
place, he perfectly agreed with the hon. gentleman, that
as an abstract proposition it would be much better that
there should be no malt tax, and the people be enabled to
brew their own beer at their own houses. But the ques-
tion was one which could not thus be considered ab-
stractedly ; it must be considered in connection with other
measures ; it must be considered in connection with the
state of the revenue ; it must la: considered in connection
with the necessity of observing the public faith, and ol
maintaining our various establishments at home and
abroad. He also perfectly agreed with the hon. member
for Oldham, that if the malt tax were to be touched at all,
it should be taken off, not partially but wholly. It was
only by taking it off wholly that any real or solid advan•
ro
tage would accrue to the consumers of beer. The only
question, he repeated, was whether such a repeal would
be consistent with the present state of our revenue. Of
athned
tlniotaulse, staganntaltiinfn a
of biel vl
etroy rep
fineaanlcia tlhpe lliace el td i
ndgu t
in wtehr
this be was convinced, that if the resolution proposed b
the hon. member for Oldham were to be acceded to by
ee
Y
brought in accordingly, the effect would be the immediate
country. Under these circumstances, he trusted that if
the hon. member for Oldham persevered in his motion, it
would be rejected by the house. Most of the observations
made by the hon, member with respect to the pressure of
the milt tax on the people, were, he (Lord Althorp)
believed, applicable to every description of tax. He did
not think with the hon. gentleman, that, under any cir-
cumstances, the labourer would be able to buy beer at a
cheaper rate than that at which it could be brewed for
him ; and be feared that no alteration could bring back
that system of receiving labourers into the houses of the
farmers, which existed in a different state of society. He
was apprehensive that the day for that had passed by.
He must meet the motion with a decided negative.
Mr. CURTEIS said, that if it were competent to him
—which it was not—to move an amendment upon an
amendment, he would propose to the house, in lieu of
the resolution of the hon. member for Oldham, a reso-
lution, " That it is the opinion of this house, that from
and after the sth of April, 1835, half the duty on malt
should cease and determine." A proposition so reasonable:
would, be trusted, be acceded to by his Majesty's govern-.
tnent. He thought if they could raise a million by public
lottery it wonld be very beneficial. The duties on gin
might also be increased. There might also (as we uu

we Is held
m
derstood the bu geotietalati) to. ..ii Inci e?. of t '''',_ a,
tax to the amount of two millions. He hoped the n°,_
member for Oldham would not divide the house, althougeo
if he did. he should certainly vote with him.
Sir WILLIAM INGILBY thought the loth I-Iseult° la
on fair grounds. The house had now had the
'or Oldham had done very right to try the question spite
of hearing the question argued by the most able Inraencent
such questions in the King's dominions. °II a . 1
ta
occasion they had heard him (Sir W. Ingilby) set::
bad
question in somewhat a burlesque way; they.hadivben he
it laid before them in a very different manner• n this
(Sir W. Ingilby) had recently addressed the house ..:ng
de,
subject, it ought to he recollected that, it beecesory
dared on all sides that some equivalent was n
the
to supply the place of the four millions whichhe "-
of his bumffoe
this great
tithLchhihileeeTaE;rppleßivprieters
of beer shops, who did not
repeal of the malt duty would deduct from
venue, he felt himself taunted, and compelled to stit.g.
jea..
the various modes which he lied proposed for t 81"__Ii.,,
!mod the deficiency.—flear.) He would not recede, esuve".
pptortuglossti
then, from his former( position. nor depart from the :_
aestion he had thrown out, of laying a moderate tax
'o'er, and a larger one on that filthy fluid gin, in
which
ked
indeed .
t What buf•
i ht,
foonery was equal to that which voted one way oneen
night,
another way another night, on the very Iran:oil-l'
tion.—(Hear, hear.) But even if there had b
been
buf-
foonery,. he had not sought his character....-it had _
'arced u •
etrnoeptoylits wansuafrlminonsetreywimming. They talks''
the Exchequer of his own accord ; but, as was
in that
\house, by ' particular desire."—( Hear, and
a
ohl
(na
woh.dnfoe home-brewed
believe)
eo,e..etbl i
gentlemanre playedtevaw relieveex )e;d
laugh.) He should not assume the character any more;
he had appeared in it once, and in a wa which be knew
might he turned to good account, fyir even the hon.
member (Mr. Curteis) had been,rigging, from his
budget, in his reference to a gin tax.
owniiersg:se
brew on their premises.
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON, as one of the agricul-
tural class, as a friend to its interests and proeperisP
would, nevertheless, vote against the motion of the ha'
,nember for Oldham. He doubted not the hon. member
for Oldham could find immediate means in a reduction
of the interest of the national debt.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD And why not ?
Mr. C. .FERGUSSON—And why not? Simply
There
that it would shake the national confidence.
were only two means of providing a substitute—the onte
already referred to, and the other a recourse to a property
tax.—(Cheers.) He understood those cheers.--(Reo ',.,
cheers.) He, then, for one, would most strenuously
oppose any such tax.
the day
Mr. SINCLAIR should be rej&ced to see
thole
when a property tax would be imposed in lieu of
taxes which bore so heavily on the poorer elsse!e'suppore. '
Mr. M. PHILLIPS could not feel
justified diabam that
Ittwrih:::Nis en.
. arguel,it.auonif
tepCt expected. theloo,i idna tax
ing the motion of the hon. member for 01
e n tioo re-
evening, however anxious to see the tax i- -,uem of the
Pealed, because he had not confidence in the feeling
_.
favour ofa I,r r
house after the example of last session in .
.0 0,
perty tax, or a substantial equivalent for the rellll°.
so large a mass of taxation.—(Hear, hear.)
~„ no
as
Mr. MAXWELL (Renfrewshire) said it was sbat
thought one of the landed interest, but as a friend to the poor, the
he should upp.,rt the motion.--(Hear, Ilese./. ass
Yesr' .1'
as was his duty to do, satisfied that though
sowing the seed which would ripen by another
itb lw'
if he divided the house he would certainly vote.
ht the,speech of the hon. member for 0 aro°
a_d
ortilitYa
nieht he a small one, it would before lerY 1"g
opinion of that house. twhbieneateshrpea proof
osC contended
agriculturistsihwould
r fa
len
,o il e
of which
thatet
tk l
w oi n
understoodo t
bor
twirh oeni
mc. RO.IILLY should vote for the in oxiOUS foe
Mr. T. ATTWOOD slid, no one was more
no nne
the presetvation of national faith than he vidauection than
looked with greater horror at :My unjust re: keodbrig"
he; but he wished the hon. member for Ka.._,, „f• the
(Mr. Cutlar Fergusson) would sometimes th 74, kept
eroken manufacturer. It was a bastard faith sv..V:rd the
..
money in insensible masses of metal—it was a bas td at the ,
which kept the fundolder in unhallowed wealth,
.."..04 eod
sone time beat down the manufacturer, die merely of
the farmer. The farmers of England were. rob by, it ,
three..fourths of their property. The house
.snt.neferea....':
.vas true, in a gigantic position, but it never i t:'_? 0
.ti ! he begged pardon, it did interfere, but b w .i. 0.,
it w" r 0 l''
was most squeamish—it was alarmed when
stand in the position of the Israeliteswou
not to have seen in his place, : stiee '.':
would be far from advocating a measure of sn.ln 1,0t.,-.4
rwiehdr
which
cyo
hf apnidismngiesint:ltu.aisilet.lyK
iThei)
King proposed
ofn none
i.et oplttaraxddt
who
ofu tha deb,
die fundholders in support of the landlioldels,sure,
he should make them amenable to the Pre eV
... sorry i . '
vier the
euff,riog q, vier _
nt with-
rod
re
About
flit having the means, in fact Egypt,
snaking bricks without
ootr
straw.—(Hear, and laughter.) Still, he douittbeat
stare
the noble lord would live to see the day when bright
cif things must have an end—(Hear)--and thebe °tars
,abric of his vision would be destroyed, and a wreck
Ati wood) would confidently say, leave not tae to see
.enind.—(Cheers.) He would implore the,w
„„eriti
virile the 14,t glimmer of the sun of Britain s P7/flight
was on them, beh.re the dal knew and glodom
slow rip'
set,
~
iverepread the face of fair and palmy Englin• allow 'jag '''
(said the lion. member), for God's sake, and
, its purse.
the pees, nt policy to career triumphantly
, °million' in '
With to aril to the malt tax, it was five
„,eduee these
amount; but he believed that in order to s'cbargea 00 ' ,
five millions, no leas than ten millions were lof .Ear a
the English people. In point of fact the PeV,erice of the
,and had to pay a tax of 150 per cent. on the omen°, 1‘
malt. The present, lie (Mr. Attwood) Wit
...41-14.0 '
a/ Nis not an agricultural but a general questi"' minent
When the noble lord would push labour t° cocases..°
pries, he ought at tl:e same time to bring dolvn _ mover .
(Hear.) The noble lord could nut proceed in the
think
thiolt
ne had done; true, with 20,0001. a year he tnif_eva and
himself safe, but he was sure from what be :went to
expected from the noble lord, he would not sit
.°.. swept
'cc the agricultural interest of this great counturi, rather
as it were by the besom of destruction, but n ,_, evil!.
,tea, in, and shield it from its great and inape aoil,
eca
—( Hear, hear.) put an - a
Mr. STANLEY would entreat the house tynel?
...0 g6OO
to a discussion tioin which there could be deruridabaupe they
..t. practical results. He (Mr. Stanley) sit°... member for
would act thus, and not think tvitla the "
buon his PillaW
Birmingham of the noble lord sleeping) Vie present
liter. in a
dreaming of his victim.—(Much lime
evening, back
~
question was fully discussed a lewd the country, an°.
large assembly of the representatives
tion he would
The quea would 18Y
was it to be again re opened ?
oentletnen ~
t. e
say was negatived ; yet now hurl' r
taxation Ot `be
they
Stater;ould not go on with the present _
wool
but he would ask how they could go O.A ii spoke
the means to supply that reduction.—(llear.) '"_..o3s to
on the side of reduction ; hut where were the 0".. were
come from to balance the account, when five millinon'idham
subtracted ?—(Cheers.) The hon. member for tire.--
had said he would not be satisfied with a ball meas bow
with a halt reduction of the malt tax ; and the paper
member for Birmingham was directly in favour of moo'
elyteney• In fact, they wished to make ministers
facture bricks from stiaw.—(Cheers ) An h".,,ose dint
had spoken of a property tax ; let, him then Prretrerwards.
tax first, and let a malt tax be introduced alaidiog part
Mr. ROBINSON was surprised at the e°". s' speech'
of the right hon. the Secretary of the
f Colonies
i keptiloen in that
which deprecated the re-opening a" a -euttelleeti°,a of ter'
house; that surprise originated in ll'
tretotally torgatteer
t.in proceedings, which were not
yet
mind. He Was
but which were indeed rife in the po
: a very brief Vale
not forgetful—for who could—that sn - ..• ,of
sauctio `bat
of tittle a measure was carried With the
mess ure,
• led,
nisters, which was in effect a Government
irety,rese° %
which was in less than a little fortnight ent. , _ meft
Ile
—(Hear.) He (Mr. Robinson) admittetd tne la
he cou-- Ile
wankt onerous and ohjectionble, bu. _
,0.81.
_iat..
thi of exalting the aglicultural over otbec'at dep.re_foi.
would deal fairly towards all. He was ag"ll
the d Illd a
ing the standard of money,—(Hear.) Al
ties hail arisen from the depreciation of the
Which
1795. in •
eot .0 its
Mr. BRUCE said Scotland, h
at the mons
ressiaa i
the
he was speaking, laboured under a great deP_coged bY..ble
ago iculturel interests. It would not be hen„eh she
.7 of
ineateire of rehef in tithe and poor laws sv''' e pia '
__
wog' tow em
lord contemplated for Emil ind. The svas s' •, was
grain in Scotland from 1829 to 103 tsol '
et,
7 to '. , 6
51s. 3d. the quarter; hu: Irons 179 ,h beim,
arket,
1.7 s Id. In the county of Stirling, whit readY w. was),
nuf,cturing county had the advaneree el e ory last , .
• Fetirtl „, so. r,
the average price of grain, as fixed in
es, lb . bear'.
wheat, 465. sd. ; bai ley, 255. 401. ; an'i °t way, - iige
:011ie in the northern county of ISIoraY,. ~.,,,e aeerop,
10 1 r
435. sd. ; barley, 255. ; and hats, 15•• a
„, love- 1 tor
in the adjoining county of Binff, nag enand osta' ars
Ttiere wheat sold for 375., barley for 231.a.c,
tob haat),..„
Io.„ With such te ices it was nraeifest the bre'cunera
a°•_:
could not pay their rent, much less obtain a
ii,:'._ to Fa's,
profit; and, therefore, they had a right to . N
..re t ,
• • liana "` 0.1
titmetit for relic:. Time lan !lords ot :NA) (Nor
condition touch iuf:rior to those of Eogland'
make °tbtieothi,les.irwinrut

' lie (Ililr. Braes) was ageinst atApleOititiitig die 14kennel
. er
faithss(Queetion, question.) Well, he would not further
trouble the house. He would not join with the hon.
Member for
(Lau Lincoln in playing the Comedy of Errors.—
ghter: Qusstion, question.)
Mr' PIGOT made a few observations which were very
implefectly heard in the gallery.
The house then divided, when there appeared—.
ors he motion
142
Majority _B3
On our return to the g
no alleay, we found Sir JAMES
GRAHAM address
a few observations to the house,
t even the purport of which was untleratood, owing to
low tone in which the right hon. baronet spoke, and the
noise occasioned by the resadmis-ion of strangers.
RUSSIAN AND TURKISH TREATIES.
i: Mr. SHELL should at once proceed, without any
tpre..-
"minary observation, to the statement of the facts,
ins
'
mots' and documents, on which •he should
hmi
fn. otion. In the autumn
of 1831 Ibrahim Pacha margroundcho,,
„re
flte Syria. On the 3d of December in th it year
A to
Will
b"
thheal It fell in May 1832. Ile advanced
emes' Which was taken on the 14th of June. On
at 7th
R of July the fate of Syria was decided by the battle
ariti 418*
it Was easy to foresee these successes,
ciPste the victory of Egyptian discipline over Turkishandto
IllaNanization. Was it not most strange that at this
Peried We There oralhad no ambassador at Canstantinople ? —( Hear. )
no ambassador from the English or French
t4erltents.(llear.) General Guilleminot had been
Eaten ambassador during the Polish war, but in come-
lueuee of his interference in urging the Porte to take ad-
tAgnitelt,_e of that crisis, he was removed by Ssbastiani, at
e,-,'rauce of Count Rana di Borgo. Turkey applied to
al-114M in this emergency for aid. This important fact
.:
add
by the noble lord in this house.
latence Was refused. Even Russia concurred in recom-
loarelltilte that succour should he ,fforded. He calculated
edscad:rge,',.°.o the refusal. Naval aid was all thet was
deter /I_ tt is obvious that it would have been sufliielentento
r4"rehina from advancing.—(Hear.)
111 d forced th eendhr
~ e p asses of the.r
-atirtas. n theHe marched
nefdDe!
Turks it'lle battle of hontah was fought, and the last
interpos4 ittt.reaY waseannihilated ! The moment for Russian
of its crafty policy, was
stow Srrit:edea., and the triumph
fused her auTishiaenEcempebr rNieholas, after Eigland bed
had sent General Aluravieff to
;jonstantinonle
e with letter, written in the linauage ofd
atrattreelende ' a the Sultan, offering fleets an
hoops
Thi:fment,.tton
04 the the 2d of FePhrropelwas not at first acceded to, but
1833, he applied for this sinister
• 4' Yet teary,stras no English or French ambassador
flo.Constantinnple. Lord Ponsonhy, who had been !p-
-italyn" in November, did not arrive until the succeedingh
lathl-. Aisslihmiral Rotrysin reached Constantinople on
(which
of
-e-ruarY • the 19th he remonstrated (us •
.nglaud never diclior the occupation of Turkey by Rus
Sire:
fnot rri
joesoespii in
Isniseeretparerateinvetadt representations The TurkishiGsovernment was struck with
but on the very next day
;the Bosphorus. Admiral
'tgal,iu ernldoled his best efforts to induce Ibrahim to
tell" - treaty, but that he was counteracted by Russia
aloneere little question. The French ambassador was
;h,, Had be been sustained by Lord Ponsonby and
1-. •rsoglish fleet, much might have been effected—but
.41, Lin diplomacy, sustained by 20,000 troops, pre-
tee.:;led. The Russian army disembarked on the Asiatic
of the Bosphorus, Admiral ROUSBIII %V 18 foiled, and
' hessian interposition the Sultan declared that he owea
the salvation of his empire. In May Lord Pe We'd
elehed Constantinople. What he could havheadrirtee,,thet hei
4dricill'efl at an earlier period, is obvioua
, tarp equally evident. Count Orloff.—arwrived as well asY
plot" Ponsonby, and the result was a consummation of the
ithss.. hieh had been darkly and deeply laid. From the .van
ii "E' ture for a moment to St. St.'phen's Chap-1. On the
ee-t° of July, the member fur Coventry had moved "for
innes of papers respecting the measures pursued by R,
_i n
tnitiatber late interference with the state of Turkey."
mostOl itni:eoasion the noble hard (Palmerston) m.ide some
the
nt statements. He resisted the motion because lit'llatitateteti.ons to which the papers related were incomplete,
tie . ?IN. character must depend on their termination.
ports I.4).tted that aid hail been asked of England by t iei
liani than refused_(Hear, hear)—and that it E agla.m
vitd. ought proper to interfere the progress of the !ti-
-40:4 er.hY would have been stoppe ~ and the Russian
404111v0tad not have been called in. The aid granted by
WOtittonliztearnely to repress Mehemet Ali. The integrity
fththe
puerile,
taunt of mpire should be maintained. He said
tee government being afraid of war is
44
_e' and I y any y man to show that we have made
..Y sacrifiee of the honour or interests of the country for
`°e-eahe of 0311intainin
/10t intl. g peace." He (Mr. Shell) would
rrupt the order of the statement here by any
eetnistiemare ,), • • but would ' tins intrepid and chivalrous declaration,
I, ~ "nte"t himself with whispering "Peland,"
ou!ne ear of the noble lord --(H r hear.) He con-
ned by saying that h. had no doubt that Rostsi.a
r*iottld honourably withdraw. her troops, as soon as peace
iotl4lld Ire established, and fulfil the pledges which she
tiled ane in Oat,. face of Europe. The. 11 to of July was
,i• 'Y On Which ace
sp.ech was delivered. Hoar little
"Id th,
oat
th nolde lord conjecture that on y three days._ 1.7.1:0ni.'e,•• it (1.! 8h of July, a treaty had be•-u cl and stinely •t., I
whoserovtists.ntanoplebet eto the Suiten and Count Orloff.
tad iii once he.appearedwto be eneaged in the r.-views, show.,
crindu . unnnations of the Seraglio, was secretly and silently
th. eting the Sultan to the ruin prepared fir him. Of
itlg,,,:sPesty our government. knew. and heard mulling until
A th announced in the Morning Herald of the 21st of
let, (Cheers and Hear.) On ihe 21,t of August, a
p -...iteoln the p ivate correspondent of that journal apff-
d while Gaunt Orloff
Ittea°:sq' i 4 which it was stated, that
ti,";lPParently criuip'ying with the wishes of France an
kog i°da he was plepating a stroke which only became
a, ea the day after his departure, which has since co.
4:444
battle
.ambassa,tors of- those countries with confusion.
m, 3 pieced Turkey in the hug of the bear. Ile pre-
°r on the Sultan to sign a treaty offensive and defen-
or
.! lty which Tu. key is hound not to make airy treaty,
0 ;eli for assistance from any other nation for ten years ;
that the artielt a confirms all prior treaties, in particular
ei,et..uf Adrianople ; another binds Turkey to furnish
I icasistance necessary to protect her from her internal
''"orti ternal enemies ; and the third, interdicts her from,. The senrg "V other European power for ten years. '
bilktunviter adds, that the teller articles of the treaty were
thq Loind' "et the treaty was clandestinely conc!uiled,
Itnd wer "an% and Admiral Rous.in remon trated.
En 1 e tell' that atsist- • had been asked in vain from
g and and D ,""
had left
the Krte ,rauce against Egypt, and that they
Patched 00°:. alternative, and the arnbassrdors ad.ey% nothin
wits to their courts for instruction. The writer
44 he Lad 4.. h regard to the Dardanellee. This letter was
4)416 24thin'IMblislied August 21st, 1833, in London.
reinater i if that month, 0 s gallant member for West-
*he,
er ntroduced the subject into the house. He asked
t00:::it the Russian troops had entered Turkey with the
fstw ?f France and England? He adverted to the
et iieetlons of the Dardaraellee under the superintendence
tlik enganetrs, are' added that it was treaty, offensive and defensive, had beenrumoured
entered
illto a
illtp,httWeen the Sultan end Count Orloff, without the
The tension or knowledge of the other Ambassadors
letto letuber for Oxford (sir R. Inglis) referred to the
bow in the Morning Herald. Ile trusted that the
f0r4,129'4 would nut allow this house to receive its in
but that he would give
it Inset, from
ti " the newspapers, roßicle
usual manner. He trusted that before the pi o-
notal:",° the house, or on the earliest occasion, the
trutt):°ll would lay before the house, e.r the
l'oPeil'ai,"4 the unaniunications connected with it. lie
Of a --e the
chard would be able to contiadict runouerst-
oglatncedatY ~," Injurious to the honour and interests
llbeen
Le n
that a treaty had tog fed
•th . utile lord replied, .
communicated;
o lad
that b: aat II bad not yet been fflc y
elate, f.4neW ntathing, except on vague rumour,. at that
fliatttlLaWh't tile treat contained. He said that r, •g
ittto 1. -;_nut Objected To the entry of the Russian troops
1832) ul'eYa and that tl e Parte had, in the Autumn e , 4PPlica?lied to P t
--sogiand for assistance, but that the
dal, .4.1" was refused. On the 29th of August, 6th
part his At. • ; a
after,
aksty a speecn on the prorogation
wing
Pas,agevoE was deliveied, and contained the follow' ,
ilavete_hostiliti
atteAtio-4" terminated ; direct may
es which had disturbed the peace of Turkey.
4flect the w'll be carefully •
ts which may
be assured that every
- Pr •ed to any evcn .
Mpire. ssent state, or the future independence of that
t'ren, th -.
t'Ze"." eeunkit,l,nugn.!aaPtieech be should pass to a very mo
tno::,',l'twiee _ . on made try France to Russia, i,a,
England
wing uctober. The interests of France MI
but more --
' l'u""
1) , ° espyeio 013 together in the whole question.
a damns.%
0, I, ly wath respect to the passage of thy
af France and oi.)' the treaty of Paris in 18(12, the right is
a'ltattle footing. /4„iettd ere platted upon precisely tire
ttliged the folte4.`"ett•ber last Alonsieur La Greaee
~,,,, 'the undersignevid-ne n'te (ii Count Nessell ode :
It'.`ll'
eg of the keenen. Th Charge d
r lit, of St. Petersbie 'Affaires of his Majesty the
as received orders to express to the ce_
oteoch Govertaoe,, rgh the profound affliction felt by the
el;ieSth ewe ,_,lii., on learning the conclusion of the treats
leas'
tbe ti,„" '.'t (.between his Majesty the Emperor of Rus,i.
"4t, alt • "u signior I
, is t,e,,t,.
,• n the opinion of the King's govern.
als.ghs to the mutual relations existing be

ciente

contal

wtwhNntch tthhee p°otiatt).ernrsatolfeLElPuirlovpactlhdaviteua"rlig4hnt etow pCrh:tteasttt.'ele, against
To this note Count :Tubed in the following
cant, offensive, and elniest centitinelioue language:—
" It is true that this act changes the nature of the relations
between Russia and the Porte, for in the room of long-con-
tinued hostilities it substitutes that friendship and that con-
fidence, in which the Turkish government will henceforth find
a guarantee for its stability and necessary means of defence,
calculated to insure its preservation. In this conviction, and
guided by the purest and most disinterested intentions, his
Majesty the Emperor is resolved, in case of necessity, to dis-
charge faithfully the obligations imposed on him by the treaty
of the Bth of July, thus acting as if the declaration contained
in the note of Monsieur La Grenee had no existence. St. Pe-
tersburgh, Oct., 1833."
This note is taken from the Augsburg Gazette to which
it purports to have been transmitted in a letter from Paris
on the 23d of December. Here let one remark be made,
which will not trench in on the distinct classification of
facts. If the French Government remons- tre.l,tt 1- tube
presntned that the noble lord did not rema ) W' P e
is his correspondence ? Was a note as affronting written
in reply, or was it even couched in more caustic phrase
(slog, and in the same style of contemptuous repudiation
as the article in the St. Petersburgh Gazette, on the
presumption of our interference in the affairs of Poland ?
To return to dates and facts—on the Ist of January Pozzo
di Borgo addressed the King of the French, and on that
occasion the accomplished Corsican pronounced on Louis
Philip an eulogium, accompanied with protestations cha-
racteristic of both—of the party who indulged in, and the
party who was graciously pleased to accept the hollow
panegyric. Six days after, in bringing up the address,
M. Bignon delivered a speech, which was received with
equal surprise and acclamation. He denounced the conduct
of Russia towards Poland, and held out the aggressions
upon Turkey as iniicative of that deep and settled purpose
of which he had, in his official capacity, a perfect cogni.
z ince. In 1807, he said, Alexander had tendered all
Southern Europe to Napoleon, provided he got Constan
tinnple in exchange.—(Hear, hear.) He warned France
to beware of the advances of Russian power in the
East, and denounced—while he revealed her policy,
and invoked his countrymen to awaken to a sense
of the insults offered to the dignity of France,
and the violation offered to her rights. To this speech
the Duke de Broglie made an answer conspicuous in it-
self, and which his subsequent conduct rendered still more
remarkable. He expressed his unqualified concurrence in
all that had been said, and thanked M. Bienon for having
given expression to the sentiments which he and his col-
leagues entertained. On the very next day, this very man
went down to the Chamber, and made a speech which
was received with astonishment by both countries. He
contended that no violation of treaty had taken place, ex-
pressed satisfaction with Russian policy, and stated that
there bad been no material alteration made respecting the
passage of the Dardanelles. M. Thiers, in reply to M.
Mauguin, said nearly the same thing, and although La
Grenee's note was yet fresh in every memory, and the
Duke of Breglie's approval of Bignem's speech was ringing
in every ear, expressed no sort of discontent at any one of
the incidents which had taken place: M. Thiers, how.
ever, incidentally acknowledged that it was a part of the
treaty, that all vessels of powers at war with Russia
should be excluded from the p visage of the Dardanelles.
Our own Parliament did not meet until the sth of Feb.,
but before it assembled an incident occurred which re-
mained to be explained. The French and English fleets
united, proceeded to the Dardanelles, which Russia had
spared no expense to fortify, and having displayed the
tricolour, and " the national fl ig of England," as it
hail been nobly called, near the spot where Sir George
Duckworth, when Lord Grey was Secretary fur Fo-
reign Affairs, expended a good deal of powder without
much avail, both fleets sailed away, and instead of
Proceeding to Smyrna, gave a preference to a more distant,
i_rs: commodious harbour, where, however, Russian in-
neAtigtdliqui e mo predominant as in th it celebrated
Ilautonnee was
Lord of theh i rerarity:ft
butiseziptedwi iaisontobbeleoncgeeed..teotutrheedFtihrastt
the achievement was euggested by the geniusj of the
Secretary for Foreign Affeirs.—(Hear, and a laugh.) But
in what did it restilt ? That remained to be told, and for
the saris action of that curiosity, be that night afforded an
opportunity. Parliament met on the sth. The King's
speech informed them that the intecrity of the Porte was
for the future to be preserved (•he Sultan raving been first
stripped and then manacled), end that his Majesty con
tinned to receive assurances which did not disturb hi*
confidence that peace would be preserved. The Duke of
Wellington, in another place, a. verted to the treaty of
G-nstantinople, and Gerd Grey retorted Adrianople upon
his Grace. But in the treaty of Adri tnople there w is, at
all events, nothing that infringed upon our rights as to
the navigation of the Black Sea; and it was to be recol-
lected that whatever the First Lord of the Treasury might
have said, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs declared
that " while he desired peace, of war he was not in the
least afraid." In that !roue no interrogatories are put.
On the 24th of February rte following paragraph ap-
peered in the Gb,be, which, from -its being the supposed
organ of government, deserved great attention, the more
especia'ly as Op y were left to the newspap,ra for their
in•ell Bence. That article stated :
" Another treaty between Russia and Turkey has been con-
cluded at St Petersburgh, which was signed by Acton/ t Pacha,
on the 29th of last month. . . . Enough has transired to
satisfy the most jealous that its spirit is pacific, and indeed ad-
vantageous to the Turkish empire. The Porte is relieved from
the pressure 05 the engagements imposed on her at Adrianople,
and we understand that the principalities, with the exception
of Silistria, will shortly be evacuated, and the sum exacted by
the former treaty reduced one-third. Such relaxations of posi.
Live engagements are proofs either of the moderation and good
sense of Russia, or of the influence which the union of England
and France, and the firm and concerted language of those two
powers, have acquired in the councils of St. Petersburgh."
Was it not reasonable that this treaty should be laid
before the house ? It. was to be observed, that in any
account of it, either in our journals or in the Allgernetne
Zitung, not one word was said of the passage of the
Dardanelles. The principalities of Wallachia and Mid.
eavia indeed were to be evacuated. That circumstance
was a mere delusion, for Wallachia and Moldavia were as
much dependencies on Russia as if they bad actually been
transferred. As to the remission of money, that conces-
sion was made to an insolvent debtor; it was not the first
time that Russia adopted the same course ; the payment
of a tribute was of little moment from a country which
was almost incorporated in her dominions, and would soon
meet the hie of so many of the Turkish provinces.
But how did this treaty mo lify or effect that of the
Bth of July ? It di I not at all relate to it. It con-
cerned the treaty of Adrianople ; and as far as they had
nothing else on this question, the house was entitled to
receive adequate information from the government. With
respect to the Dardanelles-_a mat, er ot signal itnportance to
England—affecting her commerce—affecting not only the
tiavigation of the Euxine, but giving Russia a control °vet
Greece and the entire Archipelago—it might be as well to
state with brevity the treaties that existed between
England and Turkey, and those that existed between
'Unit' and Turkey previous to that regarding which
info, illation was demanded. By the treaty of 1675,
concluded by Sir John Finch, the navigation of all the
"Turkish seas was secured to England. In 1809, a little
time after our rupture with the Porte, produced by the
astack on the Dirdanelles, a new treaty was executed,
by which the passage of the Dardanelles and the calm:
of Constantinople was secured to England. The llth
article provided that in time of peace no ship of war
should oasis, no matter to what country it might belong.
In 1774, by the treaty of Kaynadgi, the passage of the
Dardanelles was first secur,d to Russian merchant vessels.
In 1780, a quarrel took place respecting an armed vessel.
In 1783, a new treaty was entered into, and another in
1792 (that treaty by which the Crimea, just like
Guse,cae, was declared independent, and then absolved in
wastt rbdetodatitnitieenda
nt itinehnree)l,,paia.onttdevc.etbisibshrirfet,lni
olyft.reari es the passage
having
(i heir itnportance we jBnoi
dOn,
Islandsß ssi
he In
we desired to acquire,elats in lo
t84,15e ,
themnot so
from much
a becauseovv e r
that aimed at predominance in the Mediterranean,)
p
entered into a treaty
chant vessels of the Islantwisin:igehli
Inthe
1812,passage to the mer-
e... the treaty of
Bucharest was signed, by
Bessarabia was given, up
to Russia, and all former treaties res
were coat med. In 1829, the
tcrtematgy theof DAjdrdiaa'
was signet, and with ri.spect to theDardanellet,
.ined the following passage

" 7th Article. The Sublime Porte declares the passage of the
Canal of Constantinople completely free and open to ia
inercliant-vessels under merchant flags, from the Black
Sea to'
the Mediterranean, and from the Mediterranean to the Black
upon the same principle the passage is declares! free and
open to all merchant vessels belonging to Powers at peace with
the Porte. The Porte declares that under uo pretence what-

uever will it throw any obstacle in the way of the exercise o 4
,nis right, and engages above all, never hereafter to stop or
detain vessels, either with cargo or in ball..st, whether Rus_
sail or belonging to nations with which the Porte shall not be
as a state of declared war."

In the maul puhli•hed by the Emperor Nicholas
in she Ist of Octob-r, 1829, be srys
The passage of the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus is
ienceforth free and open to the commerce of all the nations of
.he world."

Thus the stipulation was that all nations at peace (note
ee it observed, with Russia, but with the Porte), shook
•njoy the right of unimpeded pabsage—but that bad been

effected by the truly of tho Bth of July. Would It be
said that nothing was accomplished by it? If so, wits
was it sinned without the knowledge of our Amhassidor.
And in a clandestine and surreptitious way ? What wer.
its provisions? Did the public journals give a just ac-
count of it ? Was it true that it provided that no vessel-
beloneing to a power at war with Russia should enjoy the
right? If so, the alteration wos palpable—and if then.
were no express declaration to this effect, let there he an
alliance offensive and defensive, and the Porte was bourn'
to consider every enemy of Russia as its own—the con-
sequence was precisely the same as if the Porte surren
tiered to Russia the possession of the Dardanelles,
and the last of the Sultans was the first satrap of Nicho-
las the Great. There did not appear to be any sound reason
for withholding this treaty. It had been the subject of
remonstrance by France, of debate in the French Chem.
her of diversified commentary in the public journals.
Why withhold it ? There would be a strange inconsis-
tency in publishing all the enormous answers to protocols
respecting Belgium, where the transaction was as yet in-
complete, and in refusing to furnish anything but mate
vials for surmise on this treaty. Ponderous folios of fruit-
less negotiations on the affairs of Belgium had been given
to the world. Let the government act upon the principle
adopted in that case, and give the English people the
means of forming a judgment of the policy which hie
Majesty's ministers had adopted in a question where the
national honour and interest were so deeply involved.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) The noble lord, although guided by
the Prince of Benevento, had lost his way in thelabyrinth
which Russia had prepared for him and Poland —(Cheers
and laughter.) " We shall" he exclaimed, " remonstrate,"
Well, we did remonstrate, and despatched Lord Durham
to St. Petersburgh (why was not Sir Stratfird Cinnine
there ?—(Elear)and what has been the result?—(Cheers.)
If confidence was to be entertained in the noble lord, it
must be built on some firmer basis than his entertainment
of the treaty of Vienna. Instead of calling on the people
of England to confide in him, let him build his confidence
in the English people. Our fleet could blow the Russian
navy from the seas ; England was yet a mate!' for the
Northern Autocrat, and there was might enough left in
her arm to lay low the colossus by which the Hellespont
was bestrid. The lion. and learned gentleman concluded
by moving an Address to his Majesty, that he would be
graciously pleased to direct that copies of any treaties
between Turkey and Russia, since the year 1833, and of
any correspondence between the English, Russian, and
Turkish governments, respecting those treaties, be laid
berore the house. The hon. member sat down amidst
loud cheers from all parte of the house.
Mr. H. L. BULWER seconded the motion. He did
not altogether, in considering this question, lay so much
stress upon the different treaties mentioned by the hon.
and learned g-ntleman in his eloquent speech, because (as
we understood him) lie looked upon treaties as a general
propo-ition, rather as a declaration by powers making it,
of what they considered their respective interests for the
time being, than any thing else. What he would lay stress
upon, and what this country at large, as well as other
countries, laid stress upon, were the alarming practical
demonstrations made by Russia in her inroad into Turkey,
and all her subsequent proceedings. As far as the people
at present understood of the policy of government in this
particular, that policy was di-approved of, and it was
therefore desirable that ministers, in their own vindica•
tion, should explain themselves. It might possibly appear
that the noble lord (Palmerston) had been overreached by
the deep diplomacy of the Russi in court; but at present
he was generally blamed for not having followed one of
two courses—either that of leaving the Sultan and the
Pacha to settle their disputes between them, by abstaining
from interference themselves, and preventing other powers
from interfering; or that of interfering in the open, de-
cided, and influent al manner which became the power and
dignity of the British empire. Neither of these courses
had been pursued, and the country was therefore very
naturally anxious and entitled to have an explanation of
the matter.
The motion being put,
Lord PALMERSTON, in rising to reply to the speech
of the hon. and learned member, had certainly had no-
thing to complain of in the tone whtch that hon. and
learned member had assumed in making ir, than which
nothing could be more good-natured. The hon. and
learned gentleman had said, that in moving for the pipers
he intended to convey no blame upon the ministry; but
he (Lord Palmerston) should not, however, feel it to be
consis ent with his duty to agree to that motion, not even
to that part of it which, though not in the original motion,
the hon. and learned gentleman had introduced into his
motion as now brought forward, because (as we under•
stood) if the treaty were to be produced and discussed, it
would also be necessary to produce all the papers connected
with the transaction, which, under existing circumstances,
lie could not do consistently with his official duty, or,
indeed, with the general interests of the state. He had
listened to the hon. and learned member with the greitest
attention, but had not discovered any points on which he
seemed to found any great degree of blame upon ministers.
He had laid the greatest stress upon itiinisteis having
refused to give to the Sultan that aid which he had asked
•

_ --
for towards the conclusion of 1832. It would he- very
easy to sa,isfy the hun. gentleman that iniiiisters were free

from blame on thin point.

The struggles between the

S.,lran and the P Achrt commenced so far track as October,

1831 ; .he derisive action between their tioop4 took blare
in December, 1832. It had not Ica:let-to been the custom

of this country to be ready to interfere in contests betw.-eo
sovereigns and their subjec.s, as in the present case; for
although the Pacha of Egypt was an powerful as to be, in
point of fact, almost a a vereign in the particular s.ates
under his control, yet this country, nevertheless, was still
bound to consider him in no other light t ban as a
subject of the Sultan's; nor liad any circumstance occur-
red in the course of the long-orotrnaed contest to. lead to
the supposition that its result would in any way differ from
the result of flamer contests of a similar charterer. The
whole history of Turkey was little more than a series of
revolts by powerful vassals, like Mehemet, against their
Sovereigns, attended, of course, with various success, but
generally terminating by the means of either force or
negotiation, in the return of the vassal to his vassalage.
There had been no grounds, in the first instance, for the
ministers interfering in this instance any more than on
former occasions. But as for the demand for aid men-
tioned by the hon. and learned gentlem ,n, this demand
toad not reach: d England till November, 1832, and the
decisive battle of Koniah took place in Decemb,r; and
the house would at once perceive that it was a physical
impossibility that any succours from this country, even
naval succours, could have reached the Sultan in time
to prevent this action. But there was ano:ber reason
why succour had not been granted, which was, that at
the time all our available force was employed upon hulls
pensable business elsewhere. He might he teltl by those
parties who disapproved of the steps we had taken in the
transaction alluded to—the affair between Hod 'nil and
Belgium—that our force being occupied in this business
was no excuse for our non-in erference in the matter of
Turkey. Those who approved of the policy of Go-
vetnment with reference to Belgium, would at once
accept the explanation thus afforded. But though it was
true that England had not interfered with its physical
f tree on this occasion, it should not be forgotten that th s
government had afforded its moral—the powerful aid of
its moral force—and he had reason to know the commu-
nicator) made by this government to M (motet Ali and his
son had in great measure produced the arrangement t e-
tween those Princes and the Sultan, which terminated the
war. Titus it could not lie said that the British govern-
ment had taken no steps towards effec ing—attempting
pacification. The hon. member had observed, that as we
had not afforded aid to Turkey, we had no right to find
fault wi'h Russia for affording it. Why, they did not
complain of this ; on the contrary, they had expressed
their satis action that Turkey had been so efficiently
assisted by the Russians, who, it was fully understood,
were to retire to their own country as soon as they had
fulfilled their acts of service towards Turkey. This had
been the confident expectation of the British government,
nor had it been disappointed. The hon. member had
complained that, for a length of time, there had been no
ambassador from England at Constantinople. Timis was
it mistake; for, within the time alluded to by the hon.
aod learned member, Sir Stratford Canning had gone to
Constantinople as ambassador on a special conimission
with reference to the appointment of a King of Greece—
a commission which that gentleman had most skilul.y
ulfilied. There had, certainly, been a short period of
time when there was no ambassador from England resi
dent at Constantinople; for Lord Ponsonby, who had been
opdointed to that high situation was prevented from going
to Constantinopl y and detained at Naples hy the weather
(as we understood).—(A laugh.) There was, however,
01l this time, a seeretaty of embassy at Constantinople, who
attended to the British interests. With reference to the
treaty of July, which had been dwelt on by the hon. and
learned member, this treaty had not reached this court for
-Date time of er it had been made, although before the time
(we understool) at which it was to be ratified—namely.
iii September. He would confess that, at first, the go-
vernment found many parts of the treaty very objection-
able, inasmuch as they appeared to give Russia some ad-
vantages over other countries--with respect to the navi
4stion of the Dardanelles particularly, which that empire
had not possessed before. But he was equally bound to
say, that in reply to our remonstrances, such exp:anations
had been given both by Turkey and Russia, as had in a

mat meatus altered the gentimento entertained on di!.
point by his Majesty's government. The 9th article 01
the treaty of 1829, set firth that no Russian arme
'easels should pass the Dardanelles—with exceptions
'articular cases named ; anti it had at first appeared tha
he treaty of July ha 1 altered this arrangement i,
favour of Russian armed vessels ; but it appeared Iron
subsequent explanations, that Russian armed vessels ha''
inly been put on a footing with the armed vessels n•
ether countries.
Mr. SHEIL (as we understood him) asked whether
by the treaty of 1829, if England were at war with
Russia, English vessels would not be prevented from pass
ing the Dardanelles?
Lord PALNIERSTON said that, by the treaty of
1829, all vessels of war, Turkey being at peace, wet
prohibited from passing the Dardanelles, with cert iin ex
eeptions, and the treaty of July made no difference in
favour of the Russians.
Mr. SHEIL asked whether, by the !ate treaty, if Ent►
land were at war with Russia, Turkey would not h.
hound to doge the D irdanelles against the English ships ?