The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-26 00:00:00

LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1834.

THE SECOND VOLUME of the LIFE
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IM 'ER LA LPARLIAMENT

THIS DAY, WEDNESDAY, FEB. 26.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. BARHAM took the oaths and his seat for the borough
of Kendal.

Mr. E. JACOB too* the oaths and his seat for the borough
of Dungarvan. The announcement of the hon. member's
name was received with loud cheers from the Irish membeis
on the opposition side of the house.
Mr. RUSSELL obtained leave to bring in a bill for the erec-
tion of waterworks in the town of Dudley, in Leicestershire.
Sir H. PARNELL obtained leave to bring in a bill for the
erection of a gaol and court-house, in the town of Dundee,
and also a bill for the better lighting and watering the same
town.

Mr. PENDARVES obtained leave to bring in a bill for the
construction of a rail.way in Corpwall.
Sir W. INGILBY presented a petition from the occupiers
of land and others in the town and neighbourhood of Horn.
castle, praying for the repeal of the malt tax. The same hon
member presented several other petitions from different places
in Lincolnshire, praying for the repeal of the same tax.
Mr. SANDFORD presented a petition from the magistrates
of the county of Somerset, complaining of the enormous
burden of the county rates, particularly in the county from
which the petition came, and praying the house would be
pleased to devise some measure for relieving the land and
houses from that enormous tax. They also complained of the
great expense attending public prosecutions in the county
The rates last year had amounted to 22,0001., and the expense
of maintaining the gaols and prosecuting prisoners amounted
to 18,0001.
Mr. TYNTE bore testimony to the respectability of the sig-
natures to the petition presented by his hon. colleague, and
concurred in its object.
Mr. ESTCOURT was glad to find that a committee had
been appointed in another place, to inquire into this subject
He (Mr. Estcourt) had given notice last session of a motion
upon this subject, and it might have been supposed that he
would have renewed it. He certainly would have done
so, but that it had been taken up by the Government. He
trusted that not only the county rates, but the entire local tax-
ation of the country would be included in the measure.
Mr. GORE LANGTON begged to express his entire concur.
rence in the prayer of the petition, which expressed the senti-
ments of the fullest bench of magistrates ever assembled at a
quarter ses.,ions in the county of Somerset.
Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR said that the rates in the county
which he had the honour to represent amounted to 90,0001. a.
year He hoped the government would include Ireland in the
bill they were about to introduce, and if not, he trusted that the
hon. gentleman who presented the petition would do so. Some
of the charges were most extravagant and ridiculous—there was
so much for shaving prisoners—so much for converting Roman
Catholic priests—so much for destroying vermin—which
merely went to the support of gentlemen's game keepers.—
(Hear, and laughter.)
Mr. MILES, after enumerating the great number of pri.
soners committed in the different districts of the county of
Somerset, expressed his hope that the government would,
during the present session, introduce a bill which would con-
nect all these different districts. He had great pleasure in sup.
porting the prayer of the petition.
Mr. SANDFORD presented petitions from the parishes of
Weymouth, Wincham, and several other places in the county
of Somerset, from Protestants connected with the Established
Church, praying that the disabilities under which Dissenters
laboured might be removed. They deprecated a tax upon
the Established Church, but they wished that an alteration
should be made in the payment of the Protestant clergy and
in the tithe system.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The only way
by which the English church would establish itself was by re.
moving those grievances which the Dissenters complained of.
—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. MILES considered the answer given by the Premier to
the Nottingham deputation, was of the greatest importance.
It was a fallacious principle, to think that conceding the de-
mands of the Dissenters was compatible with a church esta-
blishment.
Mr. STKICKLAND wished to defend the Dissenters from
the imputation of aiming at the destruction of the church
establishment. The claims of that body were just; they were
put in a respectful way, and he was sorry to hear the hon. mem-
ber imputing intentions to that body which they did not enter-
tain.

Mr. MILES begged to say in explanation that .the hon.
member misunderstood him. He alluded in his observations to
a certain portion of Dissenters whom he conceived inimical to.
the Church Establishment ; but the great majority of Dis.
senters he believed to be friendly to that establishment.
Mr. ROEBUCK conceived that the petition was drawn up
by the clergy and signed by the laity. He well knew the sort
of influence that was used for the purpose of procuring sig-
natures. Every one was looked upon with an evil eye
in the town from which the petition emanated who did not
sign it. He wished to put the question of the Dissenters'
claims in such a way as to bring it to a proper conclusion ; and
he would ask whether hon. gentlemen were prepared to grant
those claims ? If they were, the chief claim being that of not
paying the clergy from whom they derived no instruction, they
were, consequently, willing to destroy the church establish.
went. He, for one, was willing to grant those claims, and, of
course, to put down the church establishment.
Mr. TYNTE considered that the Dissenters could not be
looked upon as anxious to destroy the church establishment—
they were merely seeking for those immunities which it was
just they should enjoy.

Mr. PLUMPTRE said he was attached to the established
church, not because he had been educated in it, but because
upon examination he was convinced it was based upon the
soundest principles of religion, and that it would lead one safely
through this world to another.—(Hear, hear.) When he said
this he was not so infatuated as to stand up and defend the
abuses which existed in the establishment. He felt persuaded
that great reforms were necessary—(Hear)—and he should
be happy to support any measure calculated to place the church
upon a sound footing.
Major BEAUCLERK said the church depended not on the
hon. members for Bath and Kent, but upon the great body of the
people, upon whose decision it must stand or fall. It was im-
possible to keep up an establishment that was not in accordance
with the opinions of the people. He should be always ready, to
the fullest extent, to pay those clergymen who did their
duty; and any man who had a love for religion would give his
last penny to keep such clergymen from poverty and distress.
He would 132 the last to desire to put down the establish-
ment, but unless the establishment was placed upon a footing in
accordance with the general opinion of the people, it would be
impossible for it to be kept up.

Mr. ESTCOURT denied that the petition had been obtained
by compulsion, or that it was covered with crosses, or even if
it were so, that there was any reason why it should not be en-
titled to the attention of the house. The Roman Catholic peti.
tons which were presented some time since were not pre-
judiced by being covered with crosses, but were received as
containing the sentiments of a large body of persons. If the
petition bore nothing but crosses, still, as expressing the opi.
nions of the people, it was as much entitled to the respectful
attention of the house as if it were signed in the finest hand
that was ever written.lt was stated that tne petition was obtained
by compulsion on the part of the clergyman. Now, unless there
was something more than mere hearsay for this statement he did
not believe that any clergyman would practise such compulsion.
It was signed by a large proportion of dissenters, who, though
they entertained different views both in religion and in politics,
were still well, attached to the establishment, and he would
challenge the hon. member to poll the population of England,
and he would find himself in a minority upon a proposition to
pull down or distress the established church.
Mr. SANDFORD said that he feared the hon. mem-
ber for Bath had used stronger language with respect to the
established church than the dissenters themselves would
acknowledge.—(Hear, hear.) They did not require the
destruction, but the amendment of the established church, and
relief from their disabilities. Those persons who sought a se-
paration of church and state formed a very small, though
noisy, minority of the people. With respect to the clergyman
alluded to, he could state that ho was a man of the most liberal
feelings—he was one of those few who had supported the Ro-
man Catholic claims, and was always ready to do what was right
to remove the religions disabilities of all classes.

Mr. BROTHERT aN said he, as ; dissent;: had no wish to
disturb the church establishment—(Hear, hear)--but he must
say that dissenters suffered many grievances from which they
ought to be relieved.—(Hear, hear.) He would only say of the
established church that Lhe church of Christ ought to be sup-
ported by the five otrerings of the people, for he believed there
was no authority in the Scriptures for such an establishment.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
Capt. YQRKE said he did not wish to provoke any further
discussion upon the same subject, but he would present a. peti-
tion from Wisbeach, in the Isle of Ely, in favour of supporting
the established church, It was signed by 270 househo:ders at
that place, and was without any marks or scratches—(A
laugh)—and the petitioners stated that the alliance of the
church and state was absolute:y necessary.
Mr. SHEIL said it was stated in the petition that the esta-
blished church was originally supported by the. pious endow-
ments of our ancestors ; but it mould be mere KW:lent fbr the
petitioners not to iouch Upon 'that subject,
Itir. FINN presented petitions from several parishes in th
county of Kilkenny, praying for the total abolition of tithes.
One of them stated that in the parish from which it came
there was only one Protestant, and that a woman; that they
had never seen the clergyman, and that they did not know
where he lived. He also presented, several petitions for the
repeal of the union, zinci complained that the house did not pay
proper attention to the affairs of Ireland.
Sir H. VERNEY did nut think it fair that the house should
be told so often that it paid no attention to the afthirs of Ire-

land. The present question had been before the house over
And over again, in fact daily, since the session commenced, to
the exclusion of almost all other subjects. He (Sir H. Ver-
ney) had never seen any inattention or impatience in the house,
and therefere he thought it was too much that the English and
Scotch members should every day be told that they neglected
their duty. Irish subjects had received more attention, and
had occupied more of the time of the house, than all matters
c3nnected with the other two countries.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that, among other things, he was
glad to find that there had been a great improvement in the
morning sittings ; there was a much larger attendance of mem-
bers, and a great many promises of relief to Ireland. He
trusted that those promises would be kept in the evening. He
entreated a patient hearing while he read a letter to the
house, received by a friend of his that morning. If
the statements it contained did not make out a most strong c. se
for relief, he would never again present another petition, or
ta'ce up a moment of their time. The letter was from the town
f Skibereen, and stated that that town was in a most deplo-
rable condition—that the shops were closed—the merchants
and tradesmen were in a state of starvation
that the cholera was raging there to a great
axtent—seventy deaths having occurred within five weeks ;
that famine, pestilence, and plague held rule over the town ;
an all that while the stores were filled with corn, and ships
being laden with butter for the English market. In that state
of things a meeting of the landed proprietors was called, but to
the shame, of that class only one attended. That one who had so
honoured himself was Mr. R. Beecher, a gentleman whom
he had the misfortune to differ with in politics, but he
was glad to have that opportunity of expressing the high
sense he entertained of his conduct upon this occasion.
Even the agents of the large absentee proprietors would
lot attend the meeting, and it was a complete failure.
One case that had come under the writer's notice, was stated—
it was that of a widow and six young children, who in themidst
of starvation was seized with cholera, and the moment it was
fmnd out, they were desertedby all their neighbours. They had
been living upon a half supply of cold potatoes, and when aid was
afforded, it came too late. The woman died, and the chil-
dren, being refused an asylum in any of the neighbours'
houses, were left with the putrid corpse. That was only
one case: no doubt there were many such; and yet the
landed proprietors, and the agents of the large absentee
landlords, looked on with apathy.—(hear, hear, hear.)
He thought that a letter, such as he had just read, should create
some feeling in the house. He had been chastised for saying
that the landed proprietors of Ireland did not look with com-
passion on the sufferings of the people ; but was not such a state
of things as that he had just alluded to a proof that the people
were neglected and starving ? He would not mix up this
question with the question of repeal, lest he should thereby
iisturb the minds of hon. members ; but he would ask,
why had they not a minister in that house to answer his
complaints, and to suggest some plan for the relief of the
people ? There was another fact which he would mention to
the house. A short time before he left Ireland be had dined
with a cavalry officer of high rank, and he stated that he had
accompanied the civil power by night in search of a man
against whom there Was a warrant for murder. They searched
forty-three houses, and in thirty-one of them the inmates had
not a shred of covering, but were lying in one common mass
of misery and nakedness. Was he to be told that the Irish
members should bring forward specific measures of re-
lief while the people were starving, and so much money
was abstracted from them in the shape of local taxes
The noble lord had told them that some of these taxes he had
no control over; but had he no control over the 90,000/. he
had mentioned that morning ? Had he no control over
that enormous amount of local taxation, or over the vast sums
paid for the support of the church, from which the people der i yr d
no benefit? The government was doubly culpable in the
case of the county Cork, far any loans that had ever been made
to it had been honestly repaid; they had given a grant of
10,000/. to that county upon one occasion, which had been re-
paid. He did not blame the apathy of the hon. members of
that house half so much as that of the heartless landlords who
were living among them, and would not administer to their wants.
There was an old and a vulgar saying which was applicable to
the hon. meTbers of that house, " What the eye does not see,
the heart does not feel for."—(Hear, hear.") But in Ireland
it was shameful to see the rich man living in luxury while he
was aware of the unfortunate state of the people, and paying no
regard to their distressed situation. He thanked the house
for the patient attention with wadi it hail heard him," and
he augured well from the feeling with which his statements and
the reading of the letter had been received.
Mr. BARRY said, as an Irish member, he must say
that during the short time he had had a seat in that house
he had seen no indisposition on the part of the hon.
members of that house to pay every attention to Irish
affairs.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that in a short time
a measure would be introduced by which property would be
made liable, and the people rescued from the unfortunate state
in which they had been represented. The circumstances de-
tailed by the hon. gentleman might be perfectly true, but he
could bear testimony to the promptness with which the gentry
had come forward when cholera first made its appearance
in Ireland, for the relief of the distress of the people.
Mr. E. J, STANLEY denied that the landed proprietors
were actuated by the feelings ascribed to them by the hon.
member for Cork. The landed interests were always ready to
assist the people in their distress. He agreed with the lion,
gentleman in what he had said relative to the large amount of
the local taxation, and trusted that some modification in the
Irish grand jury laws would be made, by which the people would
have some control over the taxation to which they were sub-
jected.

Mr. BULLER begged to call the attention of the Irish mem-
bers to the conduct of the English at several periods when
distress prevailed to a most lamentable extent in Ireland. In
the year 1826 a subscription was set on foot for the re-
lief of the Irish. It amounted to a great deal; and a
considerable portion of it was sent back from the
town of Galway, there having been more than ample
means to supply the wants and relieve the population, who
before the subscription were in a very bad state.—(Hear,
hear.) That circumstance was enough to establish the fact
that English sympathies were always open to the complaints
of the poor in Ireland. He denied the charge of inattention
brought against English members, when Irish affairs were
brought before the house.—(Hear.) In the instance of
the motion made by the honourable member for Dublin
regarding Baron Smith, out of the twenty-eight members who
spoke on that occasion, only six were Irish ; and out of 169
who voted for the motion only 29 were Irish.—(Hear.) He
thought the Irish members should be more cautious in making
such charges when they were not borne out by facts.

Mr. JEPHSON said that Mr. F. O'Connor was not the best
person to give the house any information about the landlords in
Ireland; the fact was, the hon. gentleman represented the
largest constituency in Ireland, but was returned in spite of the
gentry of the county of Cork.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR made the two statements—one on his
own responsibility, the other on that of ass officer in a dragoon
regiment. He could substantiate everything he had said. Re-
garding his being returned for Cork in spite of the gentry,
he begged to say, that he represented the gentry as
well as any other class, and deserved to do so, as his family
werethe largest landed proprietors in the county of Cork. He
could tell the house that he was applied to, to use his influence
in raising a subscription for the relief of the tenantry of landed
proprietors in that county.

Mr. JEPHSON asked whether M. O'Connor alluded to him.
An HON. MEMBER rose, and begged to say that the present
discussion was one of a private nature, and called the hon. gen-
tleman to order.

The SPEAKER thought that Mr. O'Connor might an.
sorer the question put to him, and was sure he would not de.
scend into anything irrelevant to the question before the
house; upon which

Mr. O'CONNOR said he alluded to the boa, member for
Mallow. His (Mr. O'Connor's) influencr was sought for in aid
of some tenants of Mr. Jephson, who were imprisoned for
debts they would not have been called upon immediately to
pay, but that they had voted against Mr. Jephson.
Mr. 4EPI-ISON made some remark which was inaudible in
the gallery,

Mr, RUTHVEN deprecated the introduction of any topics
which went to divert the attention of the house from the sub-
ject before them.—(Hear.) It was, well known that very great
distress prevailed in Ireland, but there was as much charitable
feeling there as in any other part of the world. Although some
landlords did not accord with that feeling they were only an
except ion.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR said he had been asked whether the
hon. member (Mr. Jephson) had any thing to do with the letter
to which he had alluded w.th regard to the election at Skibbe-
reen, and he had no hesitation in saying, he believed that that
hon. member had nothing whatever to do whh it.

Mr. FINN spoke in condemnation of the general policy
adopted towards Ireland.

The petition was then ordered to lie on the table,

Sir J. JOHNSON presented s,petition'irOinacarborough,
in support of the church establishment. It stated that the
union of church and state was essential to the welfare of the
United lingdom ; but thepetitioners were willing to see all real
abuses removed ttom the church establishment With regard
to the dissenters, he did not believe that as a body they
thought the interests of religion would be benoritted by a se.
paration of the church from the state, but they wished for a
removal of some practical grievances.
Sir OSWALD AIcIAT_,F,Y presented a petition from u4aee
in the courkty of Statlbrd in favour of the dissenters (as we
understood him, for the honourable baronet was very in.
iudible). He considered that any attack upon the church' would
be a vital blow at our religion as by law established ; he was
favourable to the claims of dissenters as to the right of burial,
and the registration of marriages and births, but he was Le:
cidedly opposed to any measure which tended to produce a
separation of church and state.

Mr. BULLER supported the prayer of the petition, He