The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-06 00:00:00

shipping, they had it in their power to retaliate. (Cheers.) : with foreign shipping in respect to the carrying trade. The
He could understand how individuals' winds might be in • right hon. gentleman had contended that the distress of the
a state to induce them to advocate protection, or prohi- shipping intues:e oas not the effect of the Reciprocity Act.
tion, at home, but to attempt to play the protectionist He (Mr. Aldermen 'Thompson), on the contrary, asserted,
or prohibitionist in places where we had no power, ap- that it was mainly owing to the Reciprocity Act throwing
peered to him an impossibility, not to say an absur- out of the Baltic trade a vast number of British ships, and
dity. He would rest this part of the case on the ex- overstocking other branches of our trade. Other nations
ample set us by our quarrel with the United States. we re adepting the views of Peussia. Hanover and Bruns-
By this system, continued for a long series of years, wick intended to adopt the same course,_ a measure having
not only was there produced a great deal of injury in been submitted to the Legislature of Hanover for raising
a pecuniary point of view to this country, but jealousies the duties. With respect to our dependence upon Ame-
were fostered and animosities engendered, and at last we rica for cotton, we were likely soon to be independent of
were obliged to say, even so early as 1815, " We have the United States for the supply of that article, which was
been both in the wrong in this destructive commercial largely cultivated in South America, Egypt, and India.
warfare, and it is high time for us to give up what can He had presented a petition from Sunderland, signed by
only do us both harm without benefitting either." But several hundred seamen, complaining that they had been
supposing the hon. gentleman to carry his motion, did he discharged from ships, and had been forced to apply for pa-
suppose that we could now alter our system with regard rochial relief, and were employed in cleaning the streets.
to the United States ? (Hear, hear.) How, then, were By the same post which brought him the petition he had
we to do so with other countries? And how did the lan- received a letter from a shipowner, who stated that he had
guage of merchants and ship-owners, in 1523, describe the found it so much cheaper to employ Prussian ships than his
experience they had of this system ? He would not trou- own, that he had laid up his own ships, and brought timber
ble the house by reading the despatches quoted by Mr. in foreign vessels, althoughships were built cheaper on that
Huskisson (which he had sent for since he came into the coast than in any other part of England. He gave the
house) when he brought forward his well-known motion, proposition his hearty concurrence, and hoped that the re-
as ail the documentary evidence on this question must be slat of the motion would not cause disappointment to the
well known to every member of the house. The fact shipping interest.
was, the hon. member supposed that things would always Ar. HUTT observed that the hon. member (Mr.
go on as they had done during the time of the war. Then Young) had failed to show that the reciprocity system was
we had a monopoly of trade, our fleets could ride seas, our the cause of the distress of the shipping interest. All his
industry could exercise uninterruptedly the unshackled statements might be reduced to this—that British shipping
vigour of its arm; but peace came, and could it be sup- was on the decline, and that foreigners were engrossing
posed that with the peace foreign countries would endure the foreign trade ; that whilst they were growing rich, the
to see an unjust advantage maintained by this country over shipowners of England were unable to obtain common
themselves? On our part there could be no equitable ob- interest upon their capital. This was a species of hyper-
jection against an equality, and, supposing the equality, on bole and extravagance in which persons suffering under
what side, he would ask, would the advantage be? Un- distress were too apt to indulge. He (Mr. Hutt) admitted
doulectily it would bey p
favour of those who had the that the shipowners were suffering, but they were not the
lirgest stake in the business ( Hear, hear, hear)—who only persons who suffered. Were not all persons possessing
had the older connexion, the more established rep_ mills and manufactories, or any species of fixed capital,
tation, the best ships, and the best sailors. (Cheers.) suffering likewise? He had a document of 901111 e impor-
Then, on the other hand, take the case argued for by the tance before him--an account of all vessels which had
hon. gentleman. Suppose the reciprocity duties were at entered inwards and cleared outwards since the Reciprocity
Act, and he found not only that British tonnage had in-
an end; suppose we made 10 per cent. on the ships and
goods of foreign countries more than they made ours pay. creased, but that it had increased in a considerable ratio
Well, they would naturally immediately levy the same on over foreign ships. This account was satisfactory as prov-
ours. We might then go on to 20 per cent., they would ing another point—that shipowners could not be assumed
follow the example, until pushing the principle to its ex- to invest capital to such an extent where there was a posi-
treene length, we arrived at a complete interdiction of fo- e bve loss. With respect to reciprocity duties, he appre-
reign commerce. He had Nei putting the case as the headed that there must be reciprocity duties; we must
c ase of the shipowner only, but what became of the coil- have a reciprocity with low duties or reciprocity with high
sumer (Hear, hear)? and when he talked of consumers, duties—either the system of America or Holland. he
he did not mean it in a restricted sense, but what would feared, from the great sufferings of the shipowners, it
beeome of th great industries of the country ? Suppose would be impossible to convince them of their error; the
it was prat ose I to levy a tax on cotton impoi ted in Ame- only way, he believed, would be to let them have then own
rican instead of British bottoms, what was to become of the way for once, and they would then find out its ruinous
hundreds of thousands, nay, the millions of persons who conseyeences.
supplied with the manufactured fabric all the markets of Dr. LUSHINGTON said that if he thought it would
the world. And if there was a place in the world more befor the advantage of the shipping interest to adopt the
painfully interested in these circumstances than another, it motion, he would support it; but. being of opinion that the
repeal of the Reciprocity Act would notha.ve this effect, he
was this country, depending, as it did, so much on foreign
markets, and competing with all the other nations of the could not consent to the adoption of a measure which
world. The system for which the hon. gentleman con-
would be injurious to the great commercial interests of the
tended would be injurious if carried to a small extent, and country, without the least advantage to the suffering ship-
deadly if far. ( Hear, hear.) He contended that the opi-
ping interest. It was imposible that this country could
nion that we could force foreign powers at the present time meet fiscal regulations by any other than fiscal regulations.
to give exclusive advantages to our commerce was erroneous.
What course of a different nature could England with pro-
In the case of Prussia it had been shown that that power PrietY or advantage pursue? Could she seek to establish
could and did retaliate. With respect to the complaints
a comparison between the prosperity and resources of Eng-
Which had been so ably and well put forward by the land and those of other countries? That prosperity and
hon. gentleman he had - only to observe, that the Prus-
.
those resources were from their very nature, and especially
sian shipowner might, upon much better grounds, prefer ei
from thr great extent, liable to accident, and it would be
similar complaints. In the observations which the hon. the direct reverse of a wise policy to depend on either as
member had made with regard to our commercial relations the means Of compelling other countries to yield to our
with France, he had alluded to a report more than eighteen wishes on the subject of commercial arrangements. It was
months old, and to a commission which was of necessity also, he conceived, a matter of the highest importance that
much older; but it was scarcely necessary for him (Mr. we should bear in mind that commerce caused the increase
Thomson) to remind the house that public opinion had of shipping, and not that a superabundance of shipping at-
undergone a great change upon this subject. He had then tracted commerce. If they lost sight of that important
in his possession an ordinance taking off certain prohibi- truth, they might continue indefinitely to extend the ms-
tions against British commerce. Extraordinary powers chievous consequences ofthose steps by which they sought to
had been granted by the Chambers to the Government, to injure the commerce of other countries, and to .found
enable them to pass this ordinance, whereby they were upon those injuries a superstructure of mercantile great-
enabled to do that which they otherwise could not do. It ness. In a commercial point of view, no question what-
was true that these reliefs to British commerce did not ever but this country had attained a position of singular
touch iron or coal. It was true that the Chamber of eminence, but that success was not in consequence, but in
Deputies load recommended that the duty should be re- despite, of the system to which he had just been alluding.
duced from 25 francs to 19 francs, but public opinion was In opposing the present motion he begged most d,stinctly
so strong upon the matter, that it was found necessary to to say that he was a sincere friend to the interest to which
couple with this, that no further concessions should be that motion more particularly had reference •, he should
made till the year 1840. Under these circumstances, it not be worthy to represent the constituency by which he
was thought better by the Government to leave the whole had the honour to be returned did he not feel as became
question to the coming year and a new Chamber, in the him upon any such occasion. He begged to say that when
hope that greater and more important reductions might be any practical measure came before the house which could
made. It was perfectly true, as had been stated, that in any shape benefit the electors who had sent him to that
there were higher duties upon British iron and coal in house, he should not fail to do all in his power to advance
France than upon Belgian iron and coal. This, however, such measure. He earnestly desired to see his consti-
arose, not from any difference that was made as to the im-
tuents enabled to victual the shipping proceeding from the
posts upon the productions of the countries, but from the port of London ; he therefore would support an) motion
tact that different duties were levied by the French cus. giving them any facilities with respect to beef and pork,
tom-houses upon goods entering the country by land, or and even the opportunity of making biscuit from foreign
entering it by sea And it appeared that, if through flour—an advantage which the hon. member for Tyne-
this difference we suffered loss in some instances, in others mouth by his votes declared himself opposed to granting.
we were the gainers. While he stated this, however, He (Dr. Lushington) would not flatter the agricultural
he would beg to add, that he never would allow that interest by giving them that assistance in the maintenance
France, treating her goods as they had treated them, of their supposed monopoly which they had de. ived from
should be permitted to continue her present system of en- the hon. mover of the present proposition. He ought to
forcing so large a difference in duty upon our commodities be ashamed of so obtaining for the landc.d psoprietors an
beyond that imposed upon those of other nations. For his imaginary benefit, but which, in point of fact, was a real
part, if he should continue in the councils of his Majesty, and substantial injury.
Isis advice would be that such powers as were vested in the Mr. A. CHAPMAN dwelt upon the hourly increasing
Government should be exercised to put an end to the sys- strength) of the United States as a maritime power, and re-
tern. Many causes might be assigned for the decrease of ferred to the members in that house best qualified to pro-
the shipping interest. Be did not think the hon. gentle- nounce an opinion upon that question. He had himself
man had assigned the true one. From the evidence of heard the first partner in the first commercial house in
Mi. Akehead (we believe) it appeared that returns might England declare, that the United States were twenty years
be made, and documents brought forward, to prove that in advance of this country in the art of shipbuilding. The
the shipping interest was either Prcsaerous or the contrary, distress and difficulties with which British ship-owners had
as might be desired. As to the alleged falling off of Bri- at the present moment to contend was admitted by the
,
tish commerce, he begged to read one paper. It related right hon. gentleman ; but no specific plan of relief was
I. the number of vessels entered inwards or outwards,with proposed by him. Surely that was not what the country
their amount of tonnage, engaged in the foreign colonial had a right to expect from the executive government, re-
trade, from the year 1819 to 1832, the whole space of sponsible as that government was to the nation at large for
time being divided into periods of seven years each. The the faithful and effective administration of its affairs. No-
amount of tonnage entered inwards and cleared outwards thing, in his opinion, could be more evident than the de-
from 1819 to 1825 was, for British vessels, 1,351,000 tons; cline of British shipping and the advance of that of the
and for foreign ships 464,000 tons. From the year 1820 to United States. No one in the habit of reading the mes-
-1832, the amount of British tonnage was 1,549,000 tons, sages addressed to Congress by the American President
and that of foreign was 564,000 tons, giving exactly the but must remember the frequency of his allusions to the
propOrtiOn of one-third of foreign to British tonnage. extent of their commercial marine. His Majesty, who
He denied that the British shipping interest was took a warm interest in all that related to the naval
going to ruin. He contended, that after the termi- strength of England, would, if he could, have been most
nation of the war all we could reasonably expect to do prompt to advert to such an object of national security and
was to hold our own, and our own, he said, we had main- triumph as the prosperity of the shipping ; but never was
tamed. In proof of this, the only other return he would there to be found in any of the speeches from the throne
trouble the house with reading was one which would show the remotest allusion to any thing of the sort. In what-
that British vessels were not only able to compete but ac- ever point of view he looked at the motion brought for-
tually come intosuccessful competition upon neutral voyages ward by the hon. member for Tynemouth, he could but
with foreign vessels. It was a return of the vessels which regard it as well timed and judicious; it should therefore
had passed from one foreign port to another, through the have his cordial support.
Sound, for the year 1832. From this it appeared that Mr. INGHAM (as we understood) supported the mo-
there were 175 British vessels of a burden of 23,000 tons, tion, and contended that what were-called the reciprocity
which went upwards from one foreign port to another ; treaties were in fact treaties for putting down the navigation
and that there were 73 British vessels, of 11,000 tons bur- of that country which was once unrivalled in its maritime
den that went down the Sound, making a total of '248 strength.
vessels, and say 40,000 tons, engaged in the trade from one Lord SANDON observed that the present was not a
foreign port to the other ; and consequently, when so question of justice, but of bargain and sale, and no country
many of our vessels were employed, it followed that we had a right to insist that goods conveyed in their ships
were able to supply ships for the carrying trade at a cheaper should be placed on a par with goods coming in English
rate than other nations. But the hon. gentleman yet vessels. It was altOgether a question of policy and nego-
cal ed out for protection for the shipping interest ! What tiation, but in whatever manner it might be conducted,
would he have ? Had he not already a monopoly of the he should like to leave matters precisely in the condition
colonial trade, and of the coasting trade ? Ten millions of in which they were antecedent to the passing of the act.
tonnage were engaged ! Was thatnothing? The govern- He desired to proclaim to the world that it should be mat-
ment had the coasting trade and the colonial trade in ter of negotiation. Much in the course of the present
their hands; these they had secured to the shipping discussion had been said of the advantage to the shipping
interest—the foreign trade they had not, and that interest which must arise from carrying into practice those
they could not secure to them. The honourable gen- principles of free trade and reciprocity which had been so
tleman talked of the advantages which foreigners en- much esteemed and advocated within the last few years.
but little value in yeti. • •
joyed. Well, let him only renounce the advantages peen- He thought there was eng w hat was
liar to the British shipping interest, and he might forthwith examile ; so far from following that prac-
tice; their aim shout be to secure commercial advantages
avail himself of all the advantages of the foreigner. There
had before been questions of relief to the shipping interest, without committing themselves or making any concession
but it had then wisely determined not to separate its in-
antecedent to an equivalent benefit : for the Ministers of
forests from that of the community. A complaint, how-
foreign states ought to be armed with that ground for pro-
ever, was still raised as to the dearness of materials for posing charges which could alone be derived from the re-
ship-building. Whose fault was it that Baltic timber was spilt of bargain, and negotiate not what was called good
so high in price? Take away the duty on timber, and he example ; local prejudices were difficult to be overcome,
(Mr. P. Thomson) knew of no heavy duties that pressed and nations. were like individuals, if they did not make
on shipping. Let the hon. member produce them if there good terms for themselves, they must lose in the affairs of
were any ; let him move for their reduction, and he (Mr. life. •
It was vain to hope that the progress of liberal prin-
Thomson) would be happy to concur in removing these ciples in politics would lead to liberality in trade; for the
impediments. He would not detain the house by reading nation which enjoyed the greatest amount of political free-
documents to which he might refer, but he entreated the dom was that which was the least liberal in matters of com-
house, when it considered the question propounded by the merce. H
hon. gentleman, to bear in mind that to effect his own Mr- HUMS then rose to address the house. He was
object his motion was impotent. What was involved in astonished at the speech of the noble lord below (Lord
the speech of the hon. member, and was avowed by him, Sandon). It seemed to have become the fashion to talk
.was the principle, that .if we departed froin the system of the restrictions imposed by America and the other fo-
forced upon us in 1815, and voluntarily entered upon in reign p_o_rts ; but England had herself to blame in the mat-
-1823, other nations might treat us as we treated ter- The Americans had naturally enough sought to
them, and he would ask the house whether it inflict some species of retaliation on this country, because
would deliberately and advisedly overturn the present we had refused to admit her corn. (Hear.) Prussia,
wholesome system of commercial policy and enter too, would not have acted as she had towards England if
again on that system of commercial warfare and we had not shown her so bad an example. We complained
hostile retaliation called protection, which, in his opinion, of the 10, 20, 30,
40, or 50 per cent. duties which she im-
was a useless and impotent protection, involving us in com- posed, while actually this country laid on 250 per cent. on
but
trcial hostility with other countries, and doing nothi her timber, and refused her corn altogether. If ever his
injury to the cause itself which the honourable gen mind had been made up upon any question it was this, that
Heinen wished to serve. by the reciprocity d •
(Hear. ) The hon. gentleman . , duties great evils had been avoided and
had reminded
him (Mr. Thomson) that his advocacy of considerable advantage acquired. England, with all her
the reciproca .system had advanced him to lucrative of- other powers of competition, enjoyed great superiority
five. He begged to him a • tis respect .
inform that his present situation . also, because, he tedeved, for one foreign ves-
was less profitable than his
last ; but he was proud of the set teat entered our ports, two English vessels entered
situation, because it gave him the foreign
rtun t , of acting on ports; so that he might say that, for one farthing
o )
th • pratc.,l •s he hat alwa ,sand which they gave
afforded him the means return.
of carrying, humbly but zealously,(A laugh.) He denied that the English mei-
into effect, measures adapted to the present • c'ntile
present state of things, e interest was at all so depressed as had been revo
on which he rested his hopes of promoting seined.
the commercial ' What was the state of ruin and deteriort -
interests of England. (Hear, hear.) Thisonly ! tion, as it
was the
was called, to which it was sunk ?
considers ion which attached him to the • situation which hedocuments which he knew to be authentic, and wh, h
held, and deeply should he regret if, on the decision of the ' he held in his hand, he observed that since 1827, there h. d
house on the question before it to-night, he could no longer only been a diminution in our tonnage of from '27,000 0
hope to see the principles still acted on which had been 30,000 tons, whilst the tonnage of America had actual y
adopted by a preceding Parliament, feeling as much fallen in the same time 400,000 tons. He did not think t
anxiety as the hon. gentleman for the interests and welfare fair for the shipping interest first to refuse the repeal of tl e
of the country. (Hear, hear.) timber duties, and then to complain of dilapidation and tie
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON supported the motion. . expense of building ships. (Hear.) He was also sorry to
At the present moment British shipping had Changed places perceive, that there had been considerable vacillation on