The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-30 00:00:00

IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES BILL.

On, the motion for reading the order of the day for
bringing up the report on this Bill,
The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose to crave the
indulgence of the House for a few minutes. He bad not
followed this Bill into Committee, being himself so hostile
to its principles, that he found
i he could not with any con-
sistency agree to its going into Committee, having no
hope that any amendments that might be made could re-
move the strong objections he had to the measure. He
looked on the Bill as one of the most unconstitutional mea •
sures ever brought forward. He had frankly acknowledged
the power of the Crown, with the consent of its spiritual
advisers, to propose to Parhameut any measures which,

,sdA
in their wisdom, they might think calculated to Pre,"oi4
the general welfare of the Church.; But be °duo
the power, and he challenged the Noble Esrl to pre
any authority since the Revolution of the Crown, teest
away the temporal interests of the Church and place boe
at the disposal of Parliament. He would allow that . :fot
were clauses in the Bill well worthy of the support of
House, and every individual that wished well to the Cbe7.oo
but he felt bound to confess that he firmly believed ti
clauses had been inserted with a mask, and the deli,
screening those parts which struck a death blas
the root of the Protestant Church.—(Hear, heircit
He looked upon the Bill as one of the most violent et%
that had been made upon the established religion of ~
country since the days of James 11. If their Lord
looked to those parts of Ireland where the Proteg
religion was professed, and to those parrs of the countrtj
which the Catb lic religion prevailed, they would see
good order and conduct characterised the peasantry of To
former, and open and daring violation the latter.
would pray their Lordships, therefore, not to pass a
,to
which would subvert the established religion, and tee''#)
separate the two countries.—(Loud cries of " Heart.'
He was glad that the 147th clause had been given
TM
for he had understood that the surplus had been aferriy
the Catholic: clergy, and that they had refused it. su
Noble Earl concluded by moving that the report
received that day three months.
Earl GREY said he would not on that stage of t
Bill enter into its details. He should not have said aw
thing at all had it not been for those express'cl
which bad fallen from the Noble Earl relative to the Woo
clause, that the surplus bad been offered to the Cad'
clergy, and by them refused, which was the reason Whio
had been withdrawn.--(Hear, hear.) His answer„
that was merely to give it a most direct negatiTi
and the Noble Earl might tell his informant that the
was not the slightest foundation for such a report.
The gallery was then cleared for a division—
For bringing up the report
Against it 3B
Majority for Ministers —3o
On our re-admission to the gallery the report had bee;
received, and the House was discussing the emendates
which had been postponed in the Committee.

. .
In the clause appointing Commissioners, the Duke
WELLINGTON proposed, as an amendment, that
Commissioner should make a declaration that he WI
member of the United Church of England and Ireland,
Lord PLUNKET considered the declaration unne'i,'
sary, as the majority of Commissioners would be Ar''
bishops and Bishops.
The Earl of ELDON said it was possible that an AiLdefr
bishop or Bishop might not be a member of the Protes"'",
Church.

Lord PLUNKET looked upon that as a most esl
Binary assertion.

The Earl of ELDON, in expljpation, said that
reverend persons might not act up to their app
qu ilification.

The Duke of WELLINGTON thought those ti
were members of the Commission ought to soll‘e
declaration that they were members of the Protest,
Church. He had no desire to throw obstructioo
the way of the Bill, but he should insist upon ti
amendment.

The Earl of HARROWBY considered the declarali4.
necessary, and supported the amendment.
Earl GREY did not feel any objection to the inser°
of the dechration.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, if every indisli
forming the Commission was compelled to declare hin),..4
a member of the united Church of England and hew"
this difficulty would arise. The Lord Chancellor 0
Ireland and the Lord Chief Justice might not be men3l44
of the Church of England, and a clause might be njol
to make it lawful to pass them over and take others. oi
a new difficulty would arise. The Lord Chief Bara,
the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas might staosty
the same situation, and in that case what was to bed
remedy? He suggested, that the best mode svcalh•
when any two of the lay Commissioners were not nle
hers of the united Church, to leave the Comtnissin°
the hands of nine. I I.
The Earl of ELDON said be never would coven of
the Bill ; but a sense of the duty he owed his conrjoe
impelled him to say they could not, without a gross
~ dl,ll
liction of duty, consent to wave the security which
been taken in every instance of ecclesiastical trust. d
The Archbishop of DUBLIN said he bad ceo3ol,i,
the Prelates of Leland, and they bad transmitted an it,
nion that it was necessary to meet and provide for
emergency. tyt
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said he had bea ift
speech of the Noble and Learned Lord with go" it
when the Noble and Learned Lord proposed a clat:e)
allow the Commission to be formed without due seen(
for the Established Church. That Noble and Le YLord was the keeper of the King's conscience, 1031.4,
believed the Learned Lord had but little of that
science, and what little he had the Noble Marquis
sincerely hoped might not long remain in his keepitobll
The LORD CHANCELLOR was sure the
Marquis had misunderstood him. His object was to 0;0)
all the security to the United Church of England
Ireland the Bill could give. old I
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said all be lot,
was, that the Bill should be so framed that mere $OO
turers should not fill the situation of Commissioners'
the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack Wes b°

so to frame the Bill. v. is
After a remark from the LORD CHANCELLORY

amendment was agreed to.
After a protracted conversation,
„0111,,
Earl HARROWBY intimated his intention on %r
stage of the Bill to move that the bishoprics be
commendam.
t
The Earl of HADDINGTON gave notice th— ooff
should, on the third reading of the Bill, move that id
should not be so large a reduction in the number of
Bishops. dOe'
The Earl of WESTMEATH was opposed to the feat
tion of Bishops, and expressed his determination 0"
the Bill his utmost opposition.
elsil Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved that the 32d
be omitted. 1101
' 41t,

Lord GREY moved an amendment to the effect/ to/
ten livings should be placed at the disposal of the
Archbishops, to be bestowed upon the junior Fell°4"
Trinity College. The livings not to exceed 8001.
The Bishop of LONDON observed that howeveto
sirable it might be to provide for the junior Fello.lefi
that establishment, it would not be necessary to provid
the senior Fellows, who had each from 1,5001. to 1,.111
The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed a hope the
speedy inquiry sv,u4l take pace into these senior le
ships with a view to their reduction, in order to the
crease of the junior fellowships.
The Duke of WELLINGTON expressed himself °lll

fled with this regulation as far as it ;vent. 001
Lord WICKLOW said that Trinity College vine'
grateful for the concessions made by the Noble Fell.l'
This clause was agreed to. tri°
Upon the 34th clause being moved, a conversationoV
place in Earl Grey, Lord Harrowby, the 1,01,i;
of Wellington, and Lord Rouse, toek a part; .019
was carried on in so low a tone as to be inaudible
gallery. fic°
The Bishop of EXETER, in reference to the i
given up by the Bishop of Derry, said he did o°t2o
Wain of the proceeding, but he thought that it "41:41;1'11;
a bad precedeLl for an interference with vested 00,
unless there was something in the Statute to sheft, t t‘J
was done voluntarily. He, therefore, moved nt
words, " The Bishop of Derry having freely asle 0
thereto," he added. sfalj
Lord PLUNKET thought that the meadow°.t
be an improvement. tn° br
The Marquis of I3UTE, after a few observatiorl'oor
a clause to the effect that the vestry cess shook' io
imposed on the clerg „•pored
The Earl of WINCHILSEA could not part'ucg-cle(vi,
the injustice of throwing the vestry cess upon tPri- tOO4O
of Ireland. Many of them, having been called 01:..4).-04100,
orifice their private property for the support oftlero4lo4
and their families, were entitled to every cone' 999,:t'
lie was sure that he spoke the sentiments r;" ,re
rt
of 1,000 Protestants when lie said that he was 'or
re
had rather the tax should have been upon t"e; re
the Home recollect how great a proportion of tbt
perty of Ireland was in the hands of Protesta°:, in
amount of the tax would not be five fartirieb
pound.
t1,;9 VaoO
The Earl of WICKLOW had always oppose- porgy'
ticular clause. He thought it mo,t unjust that °lry 01'°01
of the small property in the hands of the cier,gi i° the
he taken from them to relieve the landlord. It;:atfnar fir
power of the Ministry, by the renewal of the, '‘-"o
payment of tithe, and changing the sum from J.- itode
rent., and making it compulsory, to give an equ gory
the clergy. e
The Marquis of WESTMEATH concurred 004
word that had fallen from the Noble Earl. v,
The Earl of HADDINGTON wished to Ire;); to
tax were imposed on the clergy of Ireland, ',sine P 4
years or months would pass over before the
was appliei to the people of this country ?
a moment, be supposed that those who had hce::it.
ale
rous for this Bill had any other motive than r
the clergy ? Would they, who were elaroo
00,
r 01' o
ibex.
tazatiou of the clergy oil this occasion; II

ryrithout mom
t? He thought
ut the church
it.

?~ir6rFilon across
Athe gallery.
th4tlir clause w
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