The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-05 00:00:00

TRE SUN,

lawful for her Majesty's said Secretary of State, and he is
hereby required, by warrant under his hand and seal, to
glove such person in charge to one of her Majesty's met-
aeneers, or such person to whom ho shall oink fit to
direct such warrant, in order to his Ewing conducted
out of the kingdom in such manner as shall be suitable
to his character and station; and it he shall return to
this kingdom after he shall hive been adjudged to de -
Part, and shall have departed or been removed as afore-
said, he shall be liable to be sent beyond seas, as is
Provided by an Act passed in the tenth year of the reign
of his late 'Majesty King George IV., c. 7, in the case of
Jesuits and members of religious orders.' " The Hon.
Member addressed the House in support of the motion
for nearly half an hour, but was accompanied throueii-
out with such laud and incessant cries of " Read," " Di-
vide," and other undefinable sounds, that not a single
sentence reached the gallery.
As we understood there was no seconder to the
motion,
Lord t 7. RUSSELL said ho would consume as little of
the time of the House as possible in replying to the mo-
tion of the Honourable Member who had just sat down.
"(Cries of "It was not seconded.") Oh, he did not un-
derstand that. In reference, then, to the last amend-
ment of the Hon. and Learned Member tor Abingdon
(Sir F. Thesiger), as that point had been already suffi-
ciently argued in the House, he (Lord J. Russell) pro-
posed to leave the question in the hands of the law offi-
cers of the Crown to take it as a matter of state; and he,
therefore, moved the omission of the words relating to a
common informer asking the consent of the Attorney-
General to prosecute.
Sir F. THESIGER said, as the question had been
sufficiently argued, he would not occupy the time of the
House in any further discussion upon it.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For Lord J. Russell's motion 124
Against it ••• ••• ... 175
Majority against the Government --51
Upon the question e that the Bill do pass," the House
again divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... 263
Against it ... ... 46
Majority in favour of the Bill ... --217
The Bill was then passed.
Upon the title of the Bill, " To Prevent the Assump-
tion of certain Ecclesiastical Titles in respect to Places
in the United Kingdom,"
Mr. H. GRATTAN had, he said, to move an amend-
ment. He was in the library when he accidentally heard
that the Bill had passed.—(Hear.) He did not complain
of this. He intended to have been present at the divi-
sion, but he understood that the fullest time had been
given.—(Hear.) The fault, perhaps, would be said to
be with those who ought never to have left the House—
(Hear)—hut the Irish Members had no fear of meeting
their constituents, and of giving a due account to them
of their conduct. The Bill that they had now passed
would affect the Roman Catholics in their social condi-
tion of life—it would affect them in their marriages. and
therefore he submitted that there should be another
title to the Bill—that it should be called A Bill to in-
validate Catholic marriages, and to discourage
the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland." It was
a Bill of pains and penalties, even though the
Attorney-General attached no importance to the
amendments. Such was the Bill that was passed;
but let not Ministers say that it was the fault of the Irish
Members. The Irish Slembers who could have voted
were no more than 35, and the majority was 80. Hence,
the "-ostentatious defection" of the Irish Members,which
had been referred to would not have affected the ma-
jority. The Government had not any claim upon them.
Those who sanctioned their proceedings might laugh at
the Irish Members. They might call them the "Irish
brigades e and the " Pope's brass band "—they might
call them what they pleased, for he told them the Irish
did not care for their censure nor their vituperation, for
they were determined upon doing their duty, even
though they felt that in that House they were powerless.
Upon this Bill the House decried against a majority of
the Irish Members. It was the same with other questions.
Lately upon one question there were 31 Irish Members on
One side, 9 on the other. Tho 9 succeeded, the 31
were defeated. Upon another question there were
29 Irish Members on one side, 35 un the other; the 29
succeeded, and the 35 were defeated. And on a third
question there were 20 Irish Members on one side, and
28 on the other; the 28 were defeated, and the minority
succeeded.—(Rear.) In the course, however, that was
now pursued towards the Irish people, he saw the raseili
zation of a threat on the part of the Government which
had been made some time since. It was said, " that the
Irish Catholics and Rcpealers should take care what they
did, because if they went on as they had been douse for
Borne time back, they would be handed over to the Irish
Orangemen." These words, he said. were spoken in the
Castle of Dublin, and to a person who was at that mo-
ment a Member of that House.—(Rear.) Tne people
of Ireland said of the present Ministry that they were
the murderers of the country.—(Hear.) Such had been
their conduct; but still, he said, let them not suppose
that they would put down the spirit of the Irish people,
because they had invalidated their marriages; and to ex-
Pose them to the same hardships of which an account
would be found in " Howard's Popery Cases," and where
the Noble Lord would see how the Roman Catholics had
been affected by the legislation of the Noble Lord's pre-
decessors.—(Hear.) He trusted that they would remain
United in peace and amity, notwithstanding this Bill.
Re begged leave now to move that the Bill should be
entitled " A Bill to prevent the free exercise of the Ro-
man Catholic religion in the United Kingdom."
Mr. REYNOLDS seconded the amendment.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he cordially concurred in the
sentiment which the Hon. Member who had just sat
down had addressed to them. From his heart he wished
that no circumstances might ever occur to shake the
union between Great Britain and Ireland. Though he
was of opinion that the commencement of this affair was
unfortunate, yet the termination appeared to him more
unfortunate still. He had taken part in two divisions
with his Hon. Friend in opposing and endeavouring to
resist certain alterations, which had been termed amend-
ments, of the Bill, and which gave a greater strin-
gency to the Bill than the Government thought either
safe or desirable. Certainly, under the arrangement,
which bad been made, he did expect that a full and
ample opportunity would be given for one more discus-
sion on the principle of the Bill before it was sent up to
the other House. He must say that the Speaker hasi
given every Hon. Member the fullest opportunity of ex-
pressing his opinion; and he took blame to himself, under
the particular circumstances, that he had not proposed
the adjournment of the debate, in order that still further
opportunity might be given to those who were—not, per-
haps, surprised at the speed with which the question
was put that the Bill do pass—but absent from the divi-
sion and had not returned in time. He thought the cir-
cumstances altogether unfortunate. Still he should sug-
gest to his Hon. Friends at the other end of the House—
with whom be cordially agreed on the subject of this
Bill—that it would be more dignified not to take ano-
ther division or to prolong the discussion of the principle
of the Bill, in the form of a discussion on its title. He
should wish them also to recollect that the fat ther
pro-
gress of the Bill in its altered shape was under the guid-
ance and subject to the responsibility of the Government.
That responsibility was a grave one, and he was sure
the Government would feel it as such. They ought also
to recollect what this country owed to the Noble Lord
with respect to its civil and religious liberties. All that
had passed with respect to the present Bill ought, he
thought, to inspire not England only, but Ireland also,
with the hope that in the last resort its religious liberty
might still be safe under the Noble Lord, the present
chief adviser of the Crown. Under all these circum-
stances, it his Hen, Friend took his advice he would not
Press his amendment to a division, but would acquiesce
in the Bill being now sent up to the Lords.
Sergeant MURPHY hoped the House would allow
him to make a few remarks in answer to the somewhat'
ungenerous attack made upon him by the Hon. Member 1
for Meath. Though hehad been present during the dis- '
cussions of this Bill, he had taken no part in them. The
measure had been of so fluctuating a character that he
had waited for the third reading in order to take a com-
prehensive and a correct view of it. He trusted the
Rouse would believe that he was a sincere opponent of
the Bill. As an arrangement had been made to take a
debate on the third reading, he had come down prepared
certainly to express his opinion on the Bil,1;
that heiet
a rtßaiinlllydo hadpas noti
heard the words from the chair,
and when he rose he was told he was too late. The
attack of the Hon. Member for Meath was therefore, un-
generous. The Hon. Member was familiar with the
tone
of newspapers in Ireland, and he knew that, in con-
sequence of the course he (Sergeant Murphy) had pee_
l'ette,d on this Bill, he had been maligned in a manner that
``, ha had gone to the Queen's Bench for a criminal in-
formation, he might have visited the persons who had so
attacked him with two years' imprisonment. To-night
the lion. Member and his friends had the unspeakable
folly to walk out of the House, and thought to rid
themselves of their own folly by telling the people of Ire-
land that he was the traitor.
Mr. GRATTAN assured the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman he was mistaken. He had never said any-
thing derogatory to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
character.
Mr. REYNOLDS said ho would have been well con-
tent if the lion, and Learned Sergeant had confined his
remarks to the vindication of his own conduct. He
would not doubt his sincerity, because he recollected that
on the hustings at Cork he had told the electors that he
would not pledge himself- to vote on all occasions against
Ministers. and that he thought the present Bill a mere
brutum fulmen (Ssrjeant Murphy dissented). When the
Ron. and Learned Gentleman designated their conduct
as sublime tolly—a phrase he never heard before—he
must remind him of the way in which they had been
treated, and of the breach of faith on the part of the
Noble Lord with respect to the clause proposed by the
lion. Member for Athlone. He protested against being
dictated to as to what course he ought to take by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. With respect to the
question before the House he confessed that the request
of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon was
to him, in a matter of this kind, almost a command.
He and those who acted with him owed the
Right Honourable Baronet a deep debt of gra-
titude his conduct with reference to this Bill;
anda so far as he was concerned he was disposed to
the occupiers of the Treasury bench. But he had to
remind the Right Hon. Baronet that it was distinctly un-
derstood that by allowing the Bill to be read a third time
_e they reserved the right to discuss it in its next stage.
H_. entirely agreed that the conduct of the Speaker on
the occasion was above all blame. On returning to the
Rouse he and his friend found the passages choked,
and were endeavouring to force their way into the House
While the question that the Bill do pass was being put.
The first voice he beard was that of the lion. Member
for Meath chili:ning his right to be heard, when he was
overruled. The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork
had pleaded deafness, but on a question of such impor-
tance he ought to have been more upon the watch. He
now threw the responsibility of this measure of pains and
Penalties against the free exercise a the Catholic reli-

&ton on the Gentlemen opposite. The Cathelice cf. this
country could not accept the letter ot credit clivett by the
Right Hon. Baronet on the Noble Lord itt Eavoer
h of
their religious liberty, when they cons.ieered ;3'..,67 he ad
acted with regard to this Bill. Ou every peel::: occasion
he weuid proclaim to the Catholics of -Ireland that even
for religious liberties they must rely on their own exer-
tions, and they must combine if they wished that all the
rights and privileges granted by the Act of 1829 should
not be frittered away.
Mr. LAWLESS protested against the language of
the Hon. and Learned Memb- r for Cork. There wee a
clear understanding that a discussion shoul taken
d be
on the question that the Bill do pass; and the Nobl
Lord at the head of the Government ought not to have
allowed that question to be put and carried in tee way
it had been. Even the Right Hon. Baronet had admitted
that such conduct was unhandsome.—(No, no.)
Sir J. GRAHAM wished to explain. He had dis-
tinctly stated that the Speaker had given every Mem-
ber the fullest opportunity of moving any amendment;
but he had never stated that the conduct of the Noble
Lord was unhandsome.
Mr. KEOGH said that he and his friends were unfor-
tunately unable to reach the House in time; and unfor-
tunately the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork had
not heard the question put. He rose on the present oc-
casion to ask his friends to assent to the proposal of
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon. The
services which the Right Hon. Baronet had rendered at
all times to the cause of religious liberty demanded of
them, where religion was attacked, the completest
acknowledgment. After all these motions ageinst the
Bill, it was fortunate that the responsibility of it rested,
with the Noble Lord at the head of the Govternmtnt,
and that in no ordinary manner; for, though the Noble
Lord had altered the Bill, and bad accepted propositions
on which he had been defeated, still he said that the
Bill was his.—(Hear, hear.) On the Noble Lord rested
the responsibility. He believed it was a weight his
strength would not be able to bear.
Mr. AGLIONBY thought a very unfair attack had
been made on the Noble Lord, and that it was unwar-
rantable in any one to say that the Noble Lord bad pre-
vented a discussion being taken on the third reading.
An Hoer. MEMBER—No one said so.
Mr. AGLIONBY continued—lf no one said so, his
observation fell to the ground, but his ears could not
deceive him. The Hon. Member had charged the
Noble Lord with preventing a discussion on the ques-
tion that the Bill do pass.—(Hear, hear.) The ques-
tion was deliberately put from the chair, and as if the
Speaker expected some one torise he looked to that part
ot the Clouse where the Hon. Gentlemen who opposed
the Bill sat, and expressed as much surprise by his looks
as he (Mr. Aglionby) felt that no one rose.—(Hear.)
In fact, the Speaker, in putting the question, had paused
twice before declaring that the ayes had it. He denied
that the responsibility of the Bill in its present shape
rested with the Noble Lord. The Noble. Lord had op-
posed the obnoxious clause, and he (Mr. Aglionby) had
divided on the same side. The public would be of opi-
nion that the Members who had abstained from voting
against the obnoxious clause were as much responsible
for the clause as the Noble Lord.
Mr. MOORE said that, let their responsibility be what
it might, the responsibility of the Bill still rested with
the Prime Minister, for he had taken charge of it, con-
taining a provision diametrically opposed to his own de-
clarations, even in the present session. There were cer-
tain bulls of the Pope which were absolutely necessary for
the appointment of Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland,
and it would be impossible to prevent those bulls. That
clause of the Bill. however, rendered penal that twhich
was admitted to be essential for the administration of the
Roman Catholic religion ein Ireland. The Noble Lord
eas responsible for tnat clause, although he accused the
Irish Members of being responsible for it. However,
they should feel it to be their duty to violate that clause
as soon and as openly as possible in Ireland. The Noble
Lord might proceed as he was proceeding, but he ought
to recollect that he only held his positition as the hack
of the opposition, and not as the Prime Minister of
Eneland.—(Hear.)
Colonel SIBTEIORP had been surprised to hear that
a considerable discussion had taken place on that stage
sf the Bill. He had not expected it, and that would, he
coped, account for his absence. He could not look upon
he present measure as other than an act of great poll •
deal cowardi aon the part of the Goverement. He
oelievtd the Noble Lord did what he intsnded to do—
namely, deceive the Irish Members, and did very little
to maintain the religion of his country or the dignity of
the Throne.
Lord J. RUSSELL said there were circumstances
which had ocurred within the last few days which might be
liable to misconstruction, of which they had a proof
within the last half hour. Yesterday, he believed it was
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Univer-
sity of Oxtord had said, as there were several amend-
ments to be proposed, if they were adopted, it would be
desirable to take a debate on the questioq that the Bill
do pass. He (Lord J. Russell) had said be thought it
would be more convenient no doubt to take the discus-
sion in the shape the Bill would ultimately assume. It
would be for the opponents of the Bill, of course, to de-
cide when they would take the discussion, whether on
the third reading or on the question that the Bill do pass.
Now, the Hon. Gentlemen thougproper to absent
themselves; and when the Speaker, immediately atter
the discussion, informed the House that the question
before it was that the Bill do pass, he confessed he was
surprised that no Honourable Member had risen t
commence the debate.—(Hear, hear.) The Honour-
o
able Gentleman the Member for Clonmel thought
proper to charge him with the fact that no debate had
taken place, although that Hon. Gentleman and his
friends were absent from the 1101183. Surely, then, no
blame could rest upon him for that. The Hon. Member
for Athlone, too, was angry, because a proposition which
he had suggested had not been adopted, and yet he had
triumphed over the defeat of the Government upon en
amendment which would have carried out that principle
of his own proposition. He did not think the clause pro-
posed by the Hen. and Learned Member was necessary
in the Bill. He did not consider that he lay under any
responsibility for the Hon. and Learned Member for
Abingdon's amendments. He did not want to shrink
from any responsibility which he ought to bear; and that
which he should incur was this, that when these amend-
ments were carried, when he took charge of the Bill,
could he recommend the House to pass it in the
shape in which it then was? His responsibility con-
sisted in considering whether he could adopt the
Bill as it was. On that question those who were in
the same situation with him, considering the intro-
duction of that Papal rescript last autumn to have been
a serious aggression on the independence of the Crown
and the rights of the nation, would feel with him that it
would be a serious misfortune if after attempting to carry
a Bill which was to become a legislative act to assert the
supremacy of the Crown and the rights of the nation, they
had altogether deserted that measure, and left the ag-
gression unmet.—(Hear.) Having stated his objections
to the amendments of the Hon. Member for Abingdon,
there was nothing in those amendments which would
justify him in the serious responsibility of throwing up
that Bill altogether.—(llear.) He did not believe there
was anything in that Bill which militated against the
principle of religious freedom. The Right Honourable
Baronet the Member for Ripon had given him credit for
what ho did not deserve; he said he thought that Bill
would be safe in his hands even after it had passed, and
that religious freedom would not be violated. Now
be .had this question to consider with regard to
the passing of that Bill. He did not think it would
be enough to say that the members of the present
Government, whether here or in Ireland, would not feel
iuciined to put into operation any such measure as would
violate religious freedom. He thought they should be
bound not to move the passing of the Bill if they consi-
dered that any Government which might succeed them
would be able to use the power of the Bill to the viola-
tion of religious liberty. Their responsibility, he thought,
went as tar as that.—(Hear.) He did not believe the
present Bill would be used for such a purpose. He did
not mean to say but that an Attorney-General might use
it as many other penal Acts of Parliament might be used
—to an oppressive point. But they had always confided
in that in which he had strong confidence from the first
and
time that he had beard of that Papal aggression,
that was the fact, that this country had been so long in
the enjoyment of civil and religious liberty that he did not
believe it would be possible to interrupt that long usage, or
to violate that sanctity of conscience, or prevent public
worship, or the exercise of all the rights of religion, ac-
cording to the opinions of those who practised them. They
did not live in a country where a person sit be con-
t
signed to an unwholesome gaol for reading a portion of
the Holy Scriptures. Hon. Gentlemen who had charged
them with being the enemies of religious liberty should
remember that those were events of a country in which
the influence of the Roman Catholic religion prevailed.
But, after all, was there anything hostile to religious
freedom in the provision that bishops should use their
functions officiating in various parts of the country, but
preventing them from officiating under certain terri-
torial titles conferred by a foreign power ? It occurred
to him there was no infringement of religious liberty in
that prohibition. The Roman Catholic was not the only
Christian Church in Europe, although that feet would be
heard as a novelty at Rome. This nation, too, by its
division from the Church of Rome, became a great sepa-
rated body, maintaining its own national Church and
existence as a Christian nation. There were other
Protestant nations throughout Europe, and great
Christian communities. Now, if the Church of Rome
could but acknowledge that fact—if she were to say
her bishops
or were Dub nlin, betot those
merely Rea of Wes
mantminsCatholic
ter, or
Birmingham,
bishops officiating in certain districts, he did not
pretended to rece4oigienciisethneior
believe there would beanYdiVate whatsoever, even about
a greater number than that proposed. The real aggres-
sion was, however, that they
Now, as long as they
Christians but themselves. kept
up that pretence we should not allow to be erased from
our statute-book certain provisions made on that sub-
ject. He knew, however, that if they were guided by
the commonest sense and prudence, if they
bishops by none of these titles, they would give offence
to no one, neither would they interfere with the prero-
gative of the Crown. These were his reasons for sup-
posing that even with the amendments introduced there
they
was nothing like persecution in the Bill. While
reli ion
,
permitted every person to gwer
practise his own
they did not intend to permit any foreign
rep
lie
to interfere with the sovereingty of this empire.
trusted, in conclusion, that, after the Bill had passed,
the Roman Catholics of this country would see they
would have a perfect right to the full exercise of
their own religion, but that they would have no right
to override the powers of the Parliament of this coun-
try, or decide as they pleased with respect to its go
vernment.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said he believed he stated the
sentimstos of the Noble Lord as well us his own when
he expressed his unfeigned regret at the position in
which they were accidentally place,. So many diffe-
rences of opinion, even amongst legal gen, lemon, existed
with respect to portions of that Bill, that it would be
most desirable to have a full review of all the arguments

used in the c ese before it should be sent up to the Lords.
Bat that opportunity was then passed, and he agreed
with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon
that it would be better to refrain from any attempt at
regaining the position by again opening up the discus-
sion. He regretted much if, in consequence of any sug-
gestion which he might have made, he might have been
indirectly the cause of whatever had occurred. While
he was bound to express his convic'don that neither the
Noble Lord nor the Government were chargeable with
any blame, he should deeply regret to point out
any measure by which it might have been avoided.
But the Noble Lord had stated that on the whole he was
responsible for that Bill, but that under the particular
circumstances he was not responsible for the amend-
ments introduced by the Hon. Member for Abingdon.
Assenting to that responsibility of principle, he differed
from the Noble Lord as to the application of that prin-
ciple. What were the assurances which her Majesty
gave at the last opening of Parliament? "I have to as-
sure them of my resolution to maintain the rights of my
crown and the independence of the nation against all
encroachments from whatsoever quarter they may pro-
ceed. I have at the same time to express my earnest
desire and firm determination, under God's blessing, to
maintain unimpaired the religious liberty which is so
greatly prized by the people of this country." Ile did
not think that the suggestion made by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Abingdon agreed with the expression
el sentiment which the Noble Lord had counselled
the Sovereign to make. No doubt there were
many different constructions put on that amend-
ment. The Attorney-General said there was
no persecution, although there might be vexa-
tion.—(Hear.) It was very difficult to draw a line of
distinction so fine as that. He wanted to know whether
one man writing a letter to another came within the
meaning of putting in use and execution a Papal brief?
Then, it appeared to him, the Noble Lord was responsi-
ble for sending up to the House of Lords, with the weight
and authority of his recommendation, a measure which
did not correspond with the sense of that great principle
and importance of religious freedom which Ministers ad-
vised her Majesty to use in a sclemn manner in her
Speech at the commencement of tee session. The Noble
Lord said religious liberty was not likely to be. violated
under the Bill—that there was no likelihood of such
scenes occurring has had taken place in Tuscany, where
a gentleman was unwisely and unwarrantably punished
for reading the word of God for the edification of his own
soul. It was very well for a Prime Minister to stand up
in the House at this time of day, and to point to a coun-
try centuries behind ours in the expression of civil and
religious freedom, and the establishment of these great
principles, and say, " Don't be afraid; we are not going
back to that abyss from which it has taken us centuries
to emerge." He protested from taking the first step
backwards towards that abyss. Did the Bill touch reli-
gious liberty or not? That was the real question. He
was deeply struck by an ohservation which fell from the
Noble Lord, that the real aggression was this—that the
Roman Catholic Church pretended to recognise no
Christians but themselves, and to assert that all baptised
persons were of right all subject to the Roman Catholic
priesthood. That, said the Noble Lord, was the real
aggression, and so long as the aggression continued, it
would be impossible to erase certain enactments from
the statute-book. A declaration more important, or of
more fatal meaning, he never before heard fall from a
Minister of the Crown. Because what was this aggres-
sion? Was it a new assumption? Certainly not. It
was an essential principle of the religion they professed
to tolerate. The Noble Lord founded his justification
for the measure not on any new act of the Pope, and be
deprecated and lamented the manner in which that act
had been done as much as the Noble Lord; but the
Noble Lord founded his justification of his measure
on the claim to the exclusive principles of the Roman
Catholic faith respecting Christians, which, however we
may dislike it, has all along been the open, the avowed,
and the notorious principle of the Roman Catholic
Church—a strictly religious principle, capable of being
confined by wise laws to spiritual dominion. They
founded their legislative enactments on Papal and Car-
dinalistic language. They legislated against acts, which
whether right or wrong, were apart from the language—
acts done in a spiritual sphere, which it would nave been
wisdom, as it was our duty, in no manner to interfere
with. They had not succeeded in proving the temporal
character of the acts. The Noble Lord said nothing
was easier than for the Roman Catholic Church to ap-
point priests with inoffensive titles. It was not possible
for all religious persuasions to regulate their tenets so
as to make them perfectly palatable to all who did not
belong to the same creed. He was pleading for no
rights for the Papist—he was not pleading for respect
to the Pope from the Legislature—he was not pleading
for any prohibition Government might issue against
Papal bulls,—but what he was pleading for was equal
religi ,us freedom to all classes of her Majesty's subjects.
He looked only to the mixed religious beliefs of the coun-
try, and he cherished an ardent desire that the House
would persevere in such a course of legislation which
should avoid the calamityof religious divisions, and which
should bind us together in civil and social concord.
But what said the Noble Lord? something very different
to that. Could they show him that the appointment of
Roman Catholic bishops was a temporal proceeding?
They could not. They might find ingenious arguments
to prove such was the case, but he could prove the con-
trary by the Bill. He could show them that in the case
of Scotch bishops, were territorial titles existed, they
were saved by this Bill.—(No.) The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite says these titles do not exist; he meant
deubtless they did not exist according to law. Then
only just leave as much existence to the titles of the
Roman Catholic bishops, and not only the bishops
would be content, but the Pope himself would be con-
tent.—(Cheers.) It was not for the purpose of making
a point in argument that he said this, but for the truth
and justice of the case. He said did they assert that
territorial titles were the object of the penal enact-
ment, when they caved them in the case of the Scotch
bishops. He deeply regretted to see the Bill passing
through that House • he knew how vain it was to reite-
trate intreaty when there was no opportunity of re-exam-
ining the measure, of examining the whole historical and
legal bearing of the measure. Having now stated his
sense of the responsibility under which the Noble Lord
had placed himself—which could not be extenuated by
any argument raised by the conduct of private Members
of that House—he must be content, under the circum-
stances in which he stood, once more solemnly to renew
his protest to the Bill, as a Bill hostile to the institu-
tions of the country and the established religion, because
it taught that religion to rely upon other than its spiri-
tual strength and inviolability, which alone could give
it vigour—because it tended to undermine and weaken
the law in Ireland—because it departed from those prin-
ciples of religions freedom on which the wise and under-
standing people of this country permanently built their
legislation of late years—and because it tended to relax
those bonds of concord and good-will which ought to
bind together all classes and persuasions of her Ma3esty's
subjects.--(Cheera)
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to explain that the Right
Hon. Gentleman, in 'quoting from his speech, had only
quoted a portion of his remarks. He had said that the
bee of Rome did not avow the existence of any Chris-
tians but those of her own Church, and went on to say
the consequence of that assumption was that the Church
of Rome pretended to give territorial titles, and to go-
vern the whale people comprised within that territory,
which pretension to give such titles did interfere with
the prerogative of the Crown, and liberty of the people.
The Marquis of GRANBY had hitherto avoided
either in or out of the House, expressing an opinion on,
the question; he was therefore anxious to express his
sentiments before the debate closed, and to assign his
reason for having given his support to the measure of
her Majesty's Government, although he had been obliged
to dissent from some of their propositions. In conse-
quence of the observations made by the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Oxford, he hoped he might
be allowed to refer to them. His Hon. Friend said truly,
that the question to be decided was, whether they were
by this Bill interfering with-the civil and religious liber-
ties necessary for the due exercise of the Roman Ca-
tholic religion. On that view of the question was the
country to support or condemn the Bill. He totally
dissented from the speech of his Right Honourable
Friend. He had throughout the whole debate heard
no argument to prove that the introduction of the bull
was necessary for the proper exercise of the
Roman Catholic religion. He bad asked several Irish
Members to get up and show him where any re-
ligious functions were interfered with by penal enact-
ments in the Bill. Had this been the case he should
have been one of the most strenuous opponents of the
measure. But what was the language of the Papal brief ?
Did it say that the Roman Catholics were labouring un-
der penalties or unjust laws? No such thing. It went
on to say, " Under the system of vicars apostolic the
Roman Catholic religion had greatly increased in Eng-
land." This showed that no impediment was inflicted on
the spread or the exercise of the Roman Catholic creed.
But in the pastoral of Archbishop Wiseman he found an
expression to the effect that the links of the Roman Ca-
tholic religion were not made stronger or more united
by this hierarchy—for that was not needed—but only bur-
nished and more beautifully wrought. Now what was
meant by those expressions? He had asked Irish Members
to explain, but he had received no answer. The Bill was
not intended to infringe on the civil or religious rights
and liberties of the Roman Catholics, but to preserve
intact the civil and religious rights and liberties of the
people of this country. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for the University of Oxford had said they
were descending into an abyss—that they were taking
a step backward. If so he (the Marquis of Granby) had
the consolation of knowing that the amendments of his
Hon and Learned Friend the Member for Abingdon
had not made the Bill more penal than it was before on
the authority of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment; while on the authority of the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford
he had the satisfaction of knowing that the Bill had
been by their means made more efficient. He would,
therefore, only add, that he rejoiced the amendments of
his Hon. and Learned Friend had been adopted; and
that the Bill was now of that nature which, while it
interfered with 'no rights, civil or religious, of the Ro-
man Catholics, was 'calculated to. meet the just wishes of
the Protestant people of England.
Lord Li. VANE agreed with the Right Hon. Member
for Oxford, that in the hands of the Noble Lord the Bill
would not be misapplied; but he believed, nevertheless,
such was the liberal feeling of the country, that it would
be inoperative, and that no Ministry would attempt to put
it in operation.
Mr. FARRER expressed his hope that the Bill would
be inoperative, and that it never would be put in opera-
tion. lie hoped the good sense of the Roman Catholics
would, however, render it unnecessary to make it a prac-
tical measure.
Mr. S. HERBERT had heard so many and such va-
rious statements from authorities upon both sides of the
House, that fillppre to him quite impossible to say
what the B was, or what would be its effect. In
reference to the policy which had proposed the Bill, he
would read the speech of a Noble Lord made early in

mittee.
The Ecclesiastical Property Valuation (Ireland) Bill
was read a third time and passed.
The Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Bill was read a
second time, and was ordered to be committed on Mon-
day next.
The Land Clauses Consolidation (Ireland) Bill went
through Committee pro forma, and was ordered to be
re•committed on Thursday next, at twelve o'clock.
Tee other business on the paper was disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Half-past Eleven o'clock.

Mr. W. 0. Gore, jun., paired in favour of the Eccle-
siastical Titles Bill with the O'Gorman Mahon against.
Colonel Chattertou paired off with Sir De Lacy Evans
on Friday night.
Mr. Pigott was accidentally shut out of the division on
the third reading of the Ecclesiastical Titles Assumption
Bill, which he intended to support.

THE SCOTTISH SOCIETY'S FETE.
We are happy to observe by advertisements, that
the members of this society have determined to gratify
the pleasure-seeking public with a repetition of their
Jae on Wednesday and Thursday next, the 10th and
11th, in Lord Holland's magnificent park. It will be
remembered that on the two occasions of their last
celebration her Majesty and his Royal Highness Prince
Albert, with their family and suite, and the
most distinguished of the nobility honoured the games
and sports with their presence, and moreover that her
Majesty was then pleased to cignity her appreciation in
the encouragement of such innocent and healthy recrea-
tion, by adding fifty guineas out of the royal purse to
the society's prizes. Such patronage ought to be received
with gratitude, not only by the members of the Scottish
Society, but by the public generally, for whose enjoy-
ment such fetes are got up, and we hope that the exer-
tions making for an agreeable and novel day's amuse-
ment will be encouraged by the multitude, in whose so-
ciety and happiness our beloved Queen takes so lively
an interest, as frequently exhibited in her visits to the
Crystal Palace. The programme announces the various
athletic games, sports, and pastimes of the three kingdoms,
and the management have judiciously reduced the admis-
sion fees considerably from their former prices. We will
conclude this our preliminary notice of the grand national
fete, by a reference to the encouragement given to all
sports, by a proclamation of Charles 1., in which he
states that it is his will that his good subjects be not dis-
turbed or discouraged from any lawful recreations,
such as dancing, for men or women ; archery, leaping,
vaulting, running, or any such harmless amusements for
men—nor for having May games, Whitsun-ales, and
Morris-dances, or the setting up of May-poles. This
regal order was issued in consequence of the ridiculous
and meaningless declamations of the zealots and puritans
of that age. The great demoralization of this age has
not unfrequently been attributed to Sabbath-breaking, in
which offence the bigots would include the after-church
water parties of the poor cooped-up Londoners, who, on
this only day of relaxation, crowd to Richmond-park,
to walk in the meadows and admire the beautiful
scenery. Surely this is a lamentable mistake ;at any
rate the encouragement of such fetes as the Scottish
Society's will do much to meet the growing demand for
out-of-door amusements. Lord Holland deserves the
thanks of all such as appreciate those enjoyments, for
the handsome manner in which he throws open his
hitherto exclusive splendid park.

METROPOLITAN COMMISSIONERS OF

SEWERS.

A monthly court of the Metropolitan Commissioners
of Sewers was held yesterday at the office, Greek-street,
Soho-square. The commissioners present were, Viscount
Ebrington, M.P. (in the chair), Sir John Burgoyne, Mr.
S. M. Peto, M.P., Mr. W. Hawes, Captain Dawson, Mr.
P. Hardwick, and Mr. E. Lewes.
Payments for works in progress were ordered to be
made to the amount of 2 575/.
On the motion of Mr. E. Lswes, it was agreed "That
5,300 feet of brick sewer, 4 feet by 2 feet 8 inches, be
constructed in Loughborough-park, Brixton, at an esti-
mated cost to the Surrey and Kent district of 2,3001.
Also, " That upon the sum of 1001, being paid into
court by the parties interested, 1,600 feet of brick sewer,
4 feet by 2 feet 6 inches, be constructed in King Henry-
street and Coach and Horses-lane, Newington, at an
estimated cost of 1,2801.; and that the remainder of such
expense be defrayed out of the district rates of the Fins-
bury division."
Lord EBRINGTON said a question on this subject was
asked him the other night in the House of Commons,
and he might state that under the old law of sewers per-
sons wao not only called upon to contribute to the dis-
trict sewers rates, but to pay certain amounts varying
from shillings to pounds for the frontage charges in en-
tering those sowers. Such charges under the New
Sewers Act were prohibited, but still it was considered
that the benefit received in a district by a new sewer
was more than equivalent to the charge for frontage in
an assessment to a special sewers rate.

[ADVERTISEMENT.] --- Holloway's Ointment and
Pills are a universal Remedy for old Wounds and obstinate
Sores. —Mr. John Mackie, proprietor of the Northern Ensign,
Wick, informs Professor Holloway, by letter dated, April 3,
18 i
51, that he is aware of numerous instances in which Hollo-
way's Ointment and Pills have been of the greatest service to
sufferers in that part of the country, more especially as regards
wounds of long standing, aad that he could, if permitted, give
the names of many respectable parties who have been entirely
cured by their use. No family should be without a supply of
these excellent medicines, which are so justly celebrated
throughout the civilised w)rld.—Sold by all Druggists, and
at Professor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, London.
APOTHECARIE;-UALL.—The following are the
names of the gentlemen who passed their examination in the
science and practice of medicine, and received certificates to
practise. on Thursday, July 3 : —John Roulston, Helperby-
bridge, Yorkshire ; Edward William Stephen Davis, Merthyr
Tydvil ; Edward Abraham Hancock Head, Stoke, near Ply-
mouth ; John Tom Gabriel, Royal Navy ; Augustus Florence,
Isle of Portland, Dorset; Robert Gordon, Tatham, Newby-
place, Poplar; Thomas Seal Blackwell, Staplehurst, Kent;
Robert Lucas, Burwell, Cambridgeshire.
SURVEY OF THE Nonni AMERICAN COAST.—The
Admiralty have ordered Commander Shortland, in her Ma-
jesty's steam vessel Columbia? to proceed from Halifax to
survey Sable Island, in the vicinity of which, it will be re-
membered, the Irish steamer
. Viceroy was
S lost on her trial
trip from Galway to New YorkUnitedService G