The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING FEBRUARY 8. 1856.

they did it without inquiry, and after the Lord Chief
Jretice of England had declared that it was not legal.
Their lordships then divided.
Contents—Present......... . ..... .
Proxies
Non-oontents—Pre.ent
Proxies

he would have given them his support. He enumerated
some of the expenses of the ecclesiastical courts, which
were drawn of ten from poor families, widows, and orphans.
It was a duty the Government owed the country to re-
lieve them from those harpies, and allow them to prove
their wills without trouble and at a trifling expense.
On the SPEAKER putting the question, and some re-
marks by several hon. member=, leave was given to
bring iu the bill.

59-138
53
52-105

Majority 33
Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter to three
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YEsTE4DAY.)
The SPEAKEIi took the chair at the usual 'hour.
NEW MEMBER.
Mr. BAINES took the oaths and hi; seatfor Leeds.
FIRST READINGS.

The following bills were severally read a first time :
Forest of Dean Central Railway, Wandsworth and Put-
ney Gas, Poole Railway, Bawtrey Roads, London, Til-
bury, and Southend Railway (Extension), Bagnalstone
Railway, Dawesbury Water, Cork Bridges, and Perth
Harbour.

Mr. SPOONER presented petitions for the repeal of
the Maynooth grant.
Mr. HADFIELD presented a petition from the
clergy of Sheffield against the opening of the Crystal
Palace on Sundays.
THE -RIVER, WEAVER.

Mr. THORNELY moved for an account showing the
amount due for principal debt and interest on the River
Weaver on the sth of April, 1844, with an account of
the annual receipts and expenditure in each year, and to
the latest date; distinguishing the amount annually
received for tonnage from other incidental sources of in-
come and from money borrowed ; also distinguishing the
annual expenditure for ordinary maintenance and repairs
from the expenditure on account of debt and interest, the
purchase of land, and erection of churches thereon and
endowing the same, or other like incidental expenses,
and from the amount annually paid over for the use of
the county of Chester (in continuation of Parliamentary
Paper No. 115, of Session 1844).—Agreed to.
Mr. V. SCULLY moved that the Treasury minute
made with a view to improve the postal and passenger
communication between England and Ireland, under the
act of last session, be laid on the table of the House.—
Agreed to.
Mr. PHELLIMORE gave notice, that on an early
day he should call the attention of the house to the in-
justice of a,sessing the clergy to parochial rates.
Mr. MUNTZ said that ou Thursday next he should
call the attention cf the house to the present monetary
system of the country with a view to a remedy more in
conformity with the present time.
Mr. LAYARD gave notice that on that day fortnight
he should n•all the attention of the house to the report of
Sir J. M'Neill and Colonel Tulloch relative to the army
in the Crimea during last year.
Major REED gave notice that on an early day he
should move that the franchise be extended to all who
were a,ENegsed to the income tax, not being aliens.
Mr. WISE gave notice of his intention to move, on
the 14 of February, for an inquiry into the consular
establishments abroad.

Mr. ADDERLEY asked the Secretary of State for
the Home Department why there had been no report
made by the InSpector of Prisons in the Home district
for five years past ; and when any report, such as the
act requires annually, was likely to be made by that in-
spector ?
Sir G. GREY said there were a number of those
reports in arrear, and he had written to Captain Wil-
liams on the subject. Ha had taken measures to have
those reports made more regularly for the future.
SUPPLIES TO THE_ ARMY.
Sir J. FERGUSON said the report of the Commis-
sion of' Inquiry into the Supplies of the British Army
in the Crimea having appeared, he wished to ask the
Under-Secretary of State for War whether it was the
intention of her Majesty's Government to make any
change in the direction of that department ; and whe-
ther it was their intention to place that department of
an army in the field under the charge of a superior mili-
tary officer, as recommended by the said commission ?
Mr. F. PEEL, the suggestion of the hon. member is
a very valuable one, but it has not yet been determined
to act on it.
Mr. MAGUIRE asked whether it was the intention
of Government to introduce a bill in the present session
for the better regulation of the Medical Charities of
Ireland ?

Sir G. GREY said it V 7,13 not the intention of Go-
vernment to introduce any bill on the mild ict this
seEsion.

COR,RUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS.

Mr. 11. BERKELEY said be wished to ask, seeing
that the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act expires this
session, and that a strong and genera! opinion prevails
as to its inefficiency, whether it was the intention of
her Majesty's Government to bring in a bill to renew
that act, or to submit iti operation to the inquiry of a
select committee ?
Lord PALMERSTON Paid it bad not been deter-
mined by the Government whether they should bring in
a bill to continue the act or refer the subject to a select
committee. When it had been determined what course
should be pursued the how.: would be informed on the
subject.
MR. CURTIS.

Mr. H. BAILLIE asked the First Lord of the Trea-
sury whether he had any objection to lay on the table
of the house the correspondence which had taken place
with the Prussian Government relative to the employ-
ment of agents for the enlistment of troops, and in re-
ference to the arre4 of her Majesty's consul at Cologne
upon the charge of being engaged in such proceedings ?
Also, any communications which may have been made
by the authorities of the Hance Towns with reference to
the subj,ct of en,istment ?
Lord PALMERSTON had great objection to pro-
duce the correspondence allucled to. The transaction
had been amicably settled ; and the correspondence. if
it were produced, could lead to no good results. With
respect to the second question, the Government had no
correspondence to produce.
COMMUNICATION WITH IRELAND,

Mr. CAIRNS asked the Secretary of the Treasury
whether, in the contemplated postal arrangements with
Ireland, the Treasury had considered the requires ents
of trade in the provinces as well as in Dublin ; and
whether any communications on the subject had been
made to any of the Chambers of Commerce except that
of Dublin, or whether any such communication would
be made before any tender was accepted I
Mr. WILSON said communications with the Cham-
ber of Commerce of Ireland had taken place, and the
best attention would be given to the subject as regarded
the provinces.
Mr. CAIRNS asked the Solicitor-General for Ireland
whether a bill -to amend the law of bankruptcy in Ire-
land would be introduced by Government, and when 1
Mr. lIORSMAN would next week lay a bill on the
table relating to that subject.

or 30 years in the service before they 'attained that rank, if
they were ever permitted to attain it all. (Hear, hear.)
.Ho
had heard with pleasure that these monstrous abuses were at
length attracting the attention of the Admiralty, as they had
long since excited the indignation of the public, and that a
proposition for the benefit of old officers of
,every rank was
under consideration. He hoped that this measure of reform,
which, be had no doubt, had been conceived in a benevo-

lent spirit, would also be carried outin an efficacious manner,
and that no officer would'be permitted to remain upon that
active list who was not ready to serve his country. (Hear.)
Nor was it the officers only who had now to complain of the
neglect and ill-treatment. The seamen also had their griev-
ances, and these were of no trivial character. During the
last war, even when the service was (..iisgraced by " impress-
ment," a practice which hail now' .happily disappeared,
bounty money was freely given to seamen joining the
navy. We were again at war; but no such inducement
was now offered. When the Baltic fleet first weighed
anchor it might have! been able to cope with the Russian,
but most certainly it was not competent to meet on equal
terms the navies France or of America. (Hear, hear.)
Of this he was assured by naval men of the highest autho-
rity, and among others by an officer en the flag list, who told
him that had the command been offered to him he should
have declined it through fear of loosing his reputation. On
board that fleet there was " lubbers," dockyard-riggers, a
fen, revenue servants, and some Coast Guardsmen, whose
presence there had injured one service without.benefitting
the other. There were landsmen, too, whom the Admiralty
fondly imagined they could convert into skilful mariners in
a single year. He wished the First Lord of the Admiralty
would go to sea for a year, if only to discover how little of
a seaman he would be at the end of that period. (Hear.)
It was merchant seamen that were required to man her
j.:sty's fleets. To such he would offer a liberal bounty ;
but he would not give sixpence for a landsman, for the true
qualities of a seaman were only to be acqnired iu youth.
Let us retrace our steps—do justice to the navy, or we should
rue the day when another war might come with a morn
active naval Power than Russia. As to Russia as a naval
Power, she was not to be compared with other countries
which might be our enemies. If her fleet in the Baltic,
where we last year had 100 penants waving over steamers,
had ventured to come out, we should have blown her ships
to atoms; tut if, unhappily, we should be at war with
America, who had t ome 20,u00 English seamen in her ser-
vice, what steps must we take to get. them back ? Sailors
did not willingly turn their backs upon thchr country; but
their very calling gave them general ideas of nationality,
which illiberality on our part would convert to our preju-
dice. In the last American war it was notorious that
many British seamen fought against their own flag,
and yet we took no steps to prevent a recurrence of
such lamentable conduct. It must be remembered that,
although the United States was comparatively unpre-
pared for naval war at prasent,
„seeing how rapidly we
had constructed a fleet of gun-boats, it could not be doubted
but that in two years' time she could produce a most formid-
able fleet. During Lord Derby's Government a commission
was appointed to inquire into the subject of manning the
navy, which even in time of peace recommended a small

bounty to bo given, but no attention •had been paid to the
-suggestion. He charged advisedly the late First Lord of
the Admiralty with an act of injustice and want of judgment
in not baying at the beginning of the present war procured
good seamen, as he might by the offer of a small bounty such
as was given to soldiers. He thought, too, that an endeavour

should be made, when once we had good seamen, to retain
them in the service by giving a small additional premium of,
say 1/. a year for each year beyond a certain number. That
plan of progressive pay Was adopted in the civil service, and
there was no reason why it should not be acted upon in the
naval and military services. Then, again, although the allot-
ment of prize money had been lately altered, tie thought it
might be still more extended in the seaman's favour. With
regard to punishments, without discussing the propriety or
necessity of flogging seamen, he was clearly of opinion that
no lash ought ever to fall on the back of a petty officer, and,
unless for mutiny or some other grievous offence, no A.B.
should be flogged. Then, again the articles of war were con-
tinually read on board ship, and although they were not
acted upon in all eases, yet were sufficiently alarming to sea-
men who heard the penalty of death awarded to one-half the
offences mentioned in them. He would suggest that an altera-
tion should be made iu that respect, and that the penalty of
death shOulff only be attached to those more serious offeace3
for which alone it was now inflicted. He was sorry lie was not

able to read to the house the articles of war, and the naval
instructions, but he had applied for the latter to the Secre-
tary of the Admiralty, who, no doubt; acting upon the direc-
tions of his superiors, had refused to .supply him (Captain
Scobell), a naval officer and a member of the house, with a
copy. lie could not think that was a proper way for the busi-
ness of the country to be carried on. The Admiralty was a
despotic government. In despotism Russia could scarcely
equal it. He knew it well. A naval man must mind what be
wrote and what he said. He could not give au open opinion
upon atippen question. It was a harsh government, and all
naval men felt its harshness at some period of their service.
(Hear.) He knew nothing himself of the last three First
Lords of the Admiralty, but the only man who ever received
him kindly was the late Duke of Clarence (William IV). his
Royal Highness was a naval man, entered into naval feelings,
knew something of the service, and, if he dismissed au appli-
'ant without granting his request, at all events he received
. . . .

him kindly and feelingly as an officer and a gentleman. He
(Capt. Scobell) had nothing to reap frkan this motion. He was
a retired officer, and could get nothing by it. But his strong-
est feelings were bound.up iu the welfare of the navy and the
advancement of his brother officers and brother seamen. if

there were not sufficient grouuds for inquiry so much the
better for the authorities; but they knew that, if the com-
mittee were granted, officers would come forward and give
evidence of the harshness and coldness exhibited by the Ad-
mu•alty towards the great body of naval officers for a very
long period. He did not blame the men, who met in Cabi act
Councils and exchanged favours, the East against the \Vest
Indies, the Customs against the Army and Navy, but he was
convinced the soonm the system was destroyed the better for
our country and our countrymen. Before they negatived this
motion, they would, he trusted, take it into their most serious
consideration. The civil service and the army had received
abundant attention. The navy had been passed over ; yet,
if we were involved in a war with a naval Country, and did
not maintain our supremacy of the ocean, the glory of Eng-
land would have passed away, and all-the armies of the world
could not restore it. With these observations he committed

the case of the navy to the hands of the House of Commons,
with the hope that they would do itjustie3.

became impossible to give employment to any but a fe v
of those officers'. At the end of 1817, the number of
commanders were 800, but the number in actual ser-
vice was no more than 40. With regard to the number
of lieutenants immediately aler the close of the last war, he
begged to observe, that so great A.As the number of those
that were not in actual service, that the last on the list would
be. 82 ye 're of age before they could be employed, assuming

that they were 25 years old when promoted. When the
hon. and gallant gentleman contended that a largo class of
officers to whom he had referred ought to he employed, he
(Sir Charles Wood) must say that the idea was preposterous.
The services of those hon. and gallant officers were not, in
fact, wanted, and ships to employ them in were not wanted.
Such was the reduction of the force within the last quarter
of a century. There was no denying the fact, as his lion, and
gallant friend had stated, that the number of old officers on
the list of lieutenants and commanders was very great ; hut,
with regard to the vast prop wtioa of them, it would bo quite
impossible to employ them ; and, with regard to the number
of old officers, it would be quite impossible to give them em-
ployment. When his lion and gallant friend said that there
was no promotion given to officers of the late war, in pro-
portion to their claims, let him state to the house that, in
the fifteen years after the last war, the officers in the service
were promoted just as they would have been on the war
establishment. Now, let them look to the state of the list,
as it stood fifteen years after the war. In the year 1830
there were 850 post-captains and lieutenants on the list, and
there were no means of employment for more than 50 of
them; and there were 800 contains, for whom there were
no means of employment in tile service. The number of
officers kept up, however, at that period was as arge in pro-
portion as if the country was at war ; and the number of
officers employed, it should be borne in mind, ought always
to bear a lair proportion to the demand for their services,
Aud if they were to take the number of officers on the list at
the present moment, they would find that of 99 admirals,
there were only 18 employed; that of '396 captains,
140 were only employed ; that of 569 commanders in the
service, 200 only were employed; and that of 1,200 lieu-
tenants, there but 900 employed ; and taking any time, ex-
cept the time of war, the number employed would be more
than ample for any force that the country could. require.
Within the last few years the inUmber of captains employed
varied from 60 to 80. He might now state, in reference to
the claims and opportunities for promotion, that they had
lot been met so much by actual employment as lay a disposi-
tion to confer just rewards. The hon. and gallant officer,
however, said that thp promotions that had taken place were
partial and unjust. (Hear.) Now, if they admAtel the
principle of " selection," he (lid not think that they could, on
that ground, say the promotions were governed by partiality.
If they would confine the question to promotions by seniority
how few young officers could they employ Taking promo-
tions by selection, they would, in all probability, by that
process, get the best possible officers. He did not stand up
for selection ; but they must have a rule. Of course such a
mode was open to the charge of partiality—(hear) and such
a charge as that might be readily made, and not easily passed
over. He, however, defied the whole of the s ervice not to be
open to it. He had now more experience in th, duties and

working of his department than ho bad last year ; and he
could scarcely say how many applications he might have had
made to him for one appointment. He, of course, selected a
man. His hon. and gallant frien&on his right might take
one man for the appointment, and he, of course, could not
complain of the selection. His hon. friend on his left might

select another man, and he could not complain of it. But
when he reflected, he must be allowed the right of selection
as to who might be the most desirable and fit officer for the
duties of the appointment. His honourable and gallant
friend said that they had a long list of old admirals in the
service, and that there were very few young admirals.
That was very true. The list was gradually increasing ;
but let them observe that they could not possibly have
yo mg admirals unless they promoted young commanders and
young lieutenants. If they promoted young lieutenants by
seniority, they could not have young admirals. The hon. an I
gallant officer said that the Admiralty were chargeable.-with
the exercise of political patronage. He could safely say, that
in no promotion or appointment which he had made, had he
been in the slightest influenced by partiality, or by any influ-
ence of political patronage. Since he had been at the head
of the Admiralty he had not promoted more than ten officers
to captaincies ; and he now further asserted, that she° he
bad come to the Admiralty, be had not mall a single ap-
pointment or promoted a single officer unless on the recom-

mendation of the NaVal Lords of the Admiralty. (Hear, hear.)
It had been said that promotions were given more by aristo-
cratic influence than upon grounds of merit ; but that mall!,
was not se, and upon inquiry it would b; found that there
was no just ground for such a charge. • It had been said that
Lord Pundonald, LOrd Cadogan, and Lord Anion were ne-
glected officers ; but that was not so. About those hon, and
gallant officers' ability there could be no question ; bat there
were other considerations, and those were as to the general
efficiency of officers, for the duties of command. He must
say, that he knew not of any duty which the officers ap-
pointed in the Crimean war had to discharge that they hail
not performed in a most efficient, a most gallant, and distin-
guished manner. (Hear.) Unfortunately, they had not ships
to contend with, .Ent take the officers from Sir Ed. Lyons,
who was the soul of the expedition, to Captain Lyons, in the
Sea of Azotf, that there was nothing that they had been ap-
pointed to do than they had not performed in the most gal-

lantland brilliant inanuer. And he Mast say that it was
highly to the credit of the right lion. bart., Sir J. Graham,
who preceded him at the Admiralty, that the appointments
and arrangements he had made were, in all respects, most
satisfactory, and had redounded to the honour and credit of

the country, and the glory of the British navy. (Hear, hear.)
He would, with the permission of the house, follow the hon.
and gallant gentleman through the different ranks of the ser-
vice as ho had gone through them, with resp►ct to pay and
promotion. The committeo-recouamended that there should
be a permanent number of officers of each rank, which should
not be exceeded, but there were some, such as Lord Dun-
douald, whom he would be sorry to see removed from the ac-
tive service list, although he was above the age which the
hon. and gallant officer had named. Even iu the time of war
we do not employ more than 18 admirals; and he did not
think the number was too largo. Looking at the captains,
he did not think :350 was too small a- number. By increas-
ing the number of persons whom it was impossible to employ,
they were only increasing the number of complaints and
heart-burnings. The larger the number of persons front
whom they had to make selection, the greater the discontent

and, therefore, ho thought that the recommendation of the
committee or 1818 was exceedingly wise, that the lists should

Admiral WALCOTT seconded the motion, observing that the be limited, and that there should not be too many on the ac-
tive list. He confessed that he knew of no better test than
army, the Ordnance, the Commissariat, and the civil service non-employment ; for, although a man must learn his profes-
had been subjected to the censorship of admini itrative re- sion in early life, he did not think that an officer who had
form, and he saw no reason why the navy should form au been serving as captain should be placed precisely on, the
exception. He concurred, speaking generally, in all the same footing as one who had not so served. A man to be
a
views and opinions which the honourable and gallant gen- au admiral ought to have had some experience in cornmeal-
mg. Experience as lieutenant was not sufficient ; ho ought
tleman bad so ably and temperately promalgated, and, if to have served as captain. The hon. and gallant
.gentleman
he differed, it was to such an inconsequential extent that he had said that there were doubtlesAsonie promotions for merit,
wontd not trouble the house with useless repetition. He but that they were a small proportion of the whole. But
Claimed for the navy a better system of administration, and what were the facts of the case? The number of promotions
would suggest that the power of the First Lord of the Ad- made during the last two years were 66 promotions to the
rank of commander and captain, of whom 31 were " First
miralty to give employment, promotion, and recommends- Lord" promotions, that was promotions of deseving ()in-
tim for decoration should not be exercised without consul- cars by seniority, and 35 were " Board" promotions, viz.,
tation with the naval officers of the board—so that their for special services. A. largo number of these special ser-
acquiescenee or dissent should be recorded. That w mid im- vices were performed by lieutenants, 142 of whom had
part confidence to the navy, and conduce to the benefit of the been made commanders, 32 of them by the First Lord, and
country. To neglect the services of elder officers was not the 110 by the board. (Applause.) That was, 110 were clearly
way to encourage younger officers, or to provide for the fu- and distinctly promoted for special acts of gallantry, and the
turn. Experienced officers volunteered for employment in other 32 were those old and deeerving officers whose case the
hazardous enterprises and on unhealthy stations, and received hon. and gallant gentleman has this evening brought before
a cold and cant reply, couched in terms of dull routine and the house. He quite concurred in the observations of the
indiscriminating formality,, entirely devoid of sympathy or hon. and gallant gentleman as to the language of the memo-
consideratioa, so ad to prevent further application and break vial; it was quite natural that people should ask for what
the spirit of honourable ambition, as if the application were they want, and press their claims to the utmost of their
not only unwelcome but impertinent, and the inherent desire power. It was impossible, however, to promote all deserving
of advancement were a subject of reproach. Many a gallant cases, because they could only promote one commander and
officer who would have earned distinction under his Soya- one captain for every three taken off the list. The lion. and
reign's colours had been driven to seek amore considerate re- gallant gentleman complained of the list of retired captains,
ception in the mercantile marisie. Many a gallant officer from but the fact was that there was only a difference of Gd. a day
the culpable and cruel disregard of his claims, bad returned to in their pay; one was 10s,, and the other les. 61 ; so that,
his family with crushed feelings and a broken spirit. (Hear, although they rewarded deserving commanders, by promoting
hear.) He wished not to be misunderstood, ho wished not to them to captains, they gave , hem the rank,'but only an extra
incur prejudice unfounded or suspicions which he did not de- Gd. a day. (Hear, hear.) lie proposed to add 150 to the
serve. He neither disparaged the services of any officer nor -eniority list. Lot the hon. and gallant gentleman look over
grudged him better fortune. He merely intended to raise his the list of i etired captains, andrpoint out one sin le man who
voice against a system of partiality—irreconcilable with jus- had not claims on the ground of service. (Hear, hear.) He
tice and opposed to sound policy. Unless a naval officer had dotted him. (Applause.) • The commanders' list had caused
the advent ige of high connexions or could command political more anxiety than any other. There were 1,2 ,0 lieutenants,
interest, or could evoke the compassionate sympathy and con- and only 450 commanders,. and there were, therefore, largo
sideratiou of the members of this and the other House of Par. numbers of lieutenants pressing for promotion to that rank.
liament, be reight hope and hope oa for ever. Was such en- But while almost all the lieutenants were employed, not more
cosiragement worthy of a nation that professed to love lade- than one-third of the commanders were. They had promoted
penitence of character, and boasted that the doors of advance- 140 commanders last year, the greater part of them for die-
ment were open, without consideration of birth or means, to tinguislied service. .Sixty-six ware promoted the year before,
the highest and worthiest of its sons ? He repudiated the but the number of commanders promoted last year exceeded
phrase so often quoted, of fighting under " the cold shade of by twenty tte whole number of commanders employed iu sea-
the aristocracy." He only bespoke impartiality for good and going ships. Though lie felt bound to reward lieutenants, by
meritorious service, remembering, as he did, that coronets making them commanders, for gallant actions, yet when they
had received a lustre from the names of Musgrave, Howe, became commanders the chances of active employment for
Hood, St. Vincent, Exmouth, Collagwood, and Nelson. He s snie time were small. They therefore removed one diffi-
might not live see it, he might not, and he cared not to benefit f cultv but created another. (Hear.) He had employed eons-
by the tardy recognition of right, but he felt assured the day menders in a class of vessels hitherto coinmanded by lieu-
was close at hand when claims would be impartially consi- tenants with a view to diminish the evil. It would be seen,
dcred, and the one beaten path to employment, promotion, therefore, that in the rank of commanders, it was necessary
and recommendation to the Sovereign for honours would be to provide large means of retirement. The complaints of the
by good and meritorious service. He would only add the hon. and gallant gentleman were unjust, because many lieu-
words of Mr. Burke, which were most appropriate—" Of all tenans a were made commanders at an advanced age, and
the services under the Crown there is not one that will less there was, therefore, no chance of their finding themselves at
bear tampering with than that of the navy ;it is the last that the top of the list till it was too late in life for them to expect
can be supplied in the event of emergency, and any failure of active employment in that capacity. The list of lieutenants
which brings down and draws upon the country the heaviest the hon. and gallant gentleman described as "frightful and
of all consequences." In conclusion, the gallant admiral . de. disheartening ;" but it had be en greatly reduced by the addi-
clared his intention lo follow the hon. and gallant member tions to the retired list and promotions to commanders, a
(Captain Scobell) into, the lobby, should he divide the house rank very much coveted by them, although not bringing any
upon the motion great accession of pay. The list was thus brought to about
Sir C. WOOD also complimented Captain Scobell for the the limit recommended by the Committee of 1848. As to the
temperate tone as well as for the ability with which he had charge made against the Admiralty .of large and indiscri-
brought his motion before the house, but denied that he had mivate admissions into the navy it was unjustifiable. It was
gratifying to give a complete and satisfactory answer to such.
shown sufficient grounds for the appointment of the committee
a statement as that, although he must confess it was not a
which he had asked. It was very true that if abuses did exist little provoking to have a statement made in that house, by
the committee that had been asked for would point out the a gentleman of the hon. and gallant member's authority,
remedy ; whilst, on the other hand, if there were really no which was altogether untrue. If the admissions bad been
abuses at all, the Admiralty would be proved to be blameless more than were demanded by the requirements of the ser-
vice, they would have been overdone with mates and mid-
shipmen. by the inquiries of such committee. But unless abuses had But the lieutenants were only 1,200; so thata the
been proved to exist, the house would not properly discharge mates could not have been diminished by being
promoted
its duty if it appointed the committee for which the hon. gen- lieutenants... The fact was, the numbers had been studiously
cadets,
tleman asked. All the recommendations which were made kept down ; and the mates,
by the committee to which the hon. and gallant gentleman were 600 short of the number recommended by t !
(Captain Scobell) had alluded had been carried into effect by So much for the charge of indiscriminate admissions. They
midshipmen, and
the
the Board of Admiralty. The hon. and gallant member corn- had foreseen what had been adverted to, sveit;llrnedspteiciteytohtande,
plained that there had been no sailor ou the committee, redundancy of officers, should peace sealflas they could do so,
That was very true ; lint that committee was appointed to therefore, kept down the numbers,
inquire not only into the management of the navy, but consistently with the exigencies os:fhethaernslyervaicned. Another
dv ei t i
ot the e
permanently, conditiono f
also of the army and the artillery; and there was not a point was the difference betTwbeeenthe navy
course they had pursued
single soldier or artilleryman upon that committee. with respect to bounty..
It was, therefore, not correct to represent that any undue
food, and in every
favour was shown to any branch of the public service was not to give bounty,
the seamen. They had improbvneedttoheilmr
condition
their
upon that occasion. The hon. and gallant gentleman said by increasing their pay,
improvingbounty had
that the committee in question had recommended iu their re- way they could. ,a_
I drgoef beneficial resultsbeen attended in the
port that a further inquiry should take place into the admi- army with evil insteanoralisin
What ;it had been found
nistration of the affairs of the navy. Now, what was the fact ? unprofitable and dot were the comparative
stems ?g•
Why, the committee simply recommended further inquiry into results of the two ay They were shoreof men in the
the whole system of contract and dockyard labour, He (Sir army, while the navy was full, Could they have a better
C. Wood) said last session, and be now repeated it, that
wrong proof of success than this 1 The hon. and gallant gentleman
though it w.s no doubt beneficial to the public service to ap- said it was gd to take the coastguard and riggers; but
point committees of that house to inquire into alleged abuses, they were engaged as such under the express condition to be
when wanted, They were the existence of which there was strong ground for suspecting, taken . _ . e employed on this condition
yet great detriment would necessarily be done to the public when discharged from sea-going ships. There could be no in-
service by the house continually interfering with the adminis- justice, therefore, in carrying out tbo conditions of their em-
tration of the public departments,, by the appointment of cone- ployment. The great difficulty the navy had always to provide
mittees to overhaul their proceedings. ' There could be no for was to be able, at any time when such a step might be
doubt that uniformity in the administration of the public de- necessary, to make large additions to the number of men, and
artments was rendered very difficult by the frequent change to make such additions rapidly. Theymust, therefore, always
ofP the Ministry; but it mould be mere just to all parties, to have at hand numbers of men who could be called at once
permit the Government for the time being to continue unin- into active service when wanted. A measure was nearly ready
terrupted their mode of conducting the public departments, which would materially improve the condition of chaplains,
sinless there was good reason that the public for supposing naval instructors, paymasters, assistant-surgeons,' and engi-
interests were damaged by them. The hon. and gallant gentle- neers. The latter was a very deserving class of officers whose
man made it a matter of complaint that promotions in the condition bad hitherto been somewhat anomalous. This was
navy were much less frequent than they were some years ago. a delicate and difficult task ; for if advantages were given to
Many promotions were undoubtedly made at the close of the one, they must be given to all, or dissatisfaction would be
last war ; but the object of the Government in making these excited. The hen. and.gallant officer opposite said that there
promotions was, not so much to reward past services, as to was a large portion of business to be transacted by the Board
enable the man; officers who had been employed during the of Admiralty which could not be done properly by civilians:
• I war, but would not be required when the navy was reduced Now, that was not so, for although it was quite true that he
perfectly
140,000 or 150,000 to 42,000 men, to retire ou an iu- knew nothing of the management of a ship, be was rfectly
•I creased half-pay. The navy was still reduced in 1835, to 26,500, capable of taking a Part in transacting the bu =iness which came
including men and officers. 1,000 officers were promoted at the 1 before them. IIIP0:nt of fact 9-10ths of it could be t raosacted by
. cud of the w„, but the 2cct ~,§ tbett 89 reduced that it • civilians. Thum was, ftw examplo, thg§uPplY 9; Fao!eAtfc'r the
_._ _ __.

' navy, audit was not necessary to have the opinion of a naval
officer exclusively on that subject. Now, it so happened,
that that very morning he took down the number of questions
which came for discussion before the board, and only referring
exclusively to naval matters. There was the question of pro-
viding stores, of buying different articles, of victualling, of
medical necessaries, and so on. So that as he had said, nine-
tenths of the business was exclusively of a civil nature, and
on which a civilian was quite as well qualified to give an
opinion as any naval officer. Of the six lords composing the
board, four were naval men ; the first lard was a Civilian, but
on no occasion, or on any subject which affected the naval ser-
vice, did he take any step, without consulting his naval col-
leagues. With regard to promotion, it was regulated by
seniority and selection—and in his opinion it was by selection
alone that they could get the ablest men to command their
ships 'and promote the efficiency of the service. With re-
spect to himself, in making promotions he was regulated by no
private or personal eibtive whatever ; and so many applica-
tions were made, that in making one selection he ran the risk
of; probably, offending 900. But, if he discharged his duty
to the best of his judgment, as ho knew and believed he had,
he had the satisfaction of knowing that he was guided in every
act by the most conscientious motives. That the affairs of
the navy had been well administered, he night appeal to the
navy itself; at no time, nor during any former war, were
officets, and men in a state of more complete and
thorough efficiency, and he was perfectly sure, notwithstand-
ing, all that had been said to the contrary, teat that was the
opinion of the country at large. (Hear, hear.)
Captain BOLDERO would support the motion for the ap-
pointment of a select committee, though he did not agree with
the hon. and gallant officer who brought it forward, in regard
to mandn ; the navy. He believed the navy at present was
better mat.ne I-, better paid, and better fed, than at any former
period in their naval annals, They were nowbetter paid than
in the mercantile marine, and, therefore, in that respect the
greatest credit was duo to the Admiralty. He approved, how-
ever, of the motion for a committee of inquiry, because if the
system be good it would redound to the credit Of the Admi-
ralty, if not, it ought to be corrected. The commission to
which the right hon. gentleman referred had made many re-
commendations, and all of them were carried into effect with,
respect to the army, but nothing was done regarding the
medical department of the navy. That was one of the reasons
why he should support the present motion. Everything had
a beginning, for now the Admiralty had not only increased
the pay of medical officers in the navy, but directed they
should have cabins, so that bya little-perseverancethey would
obtain more. Their pay at present gradually increased up to
ten years, but from ten to twenty they received no increase
at all. Now that was not right or proper. They were highly
educated men, and entered the service to gain rewards and
honours. To retain them in the service ought to be the first
object of the Admiralty ; but by the present system they
were excluded from receiving additional pay after serving ten
years. Then let them look at the question of rank, as be-
tween those in the army and navy. An inspector of hos-
pitals in the army ranked as a brigadier-general, while a naval
inspector of the same class only took rank as a lieutenant-
colonel. Now that was a distinction which he contended
ought not to be made. Then again he found the Other day
that in conferring decorations on those who had distinguished
themselves in the Crimea, Dr. Hall, as Inspector-General,
was made a K.C.8., while another doctor, who held the same
rank in the 'navy, was only created a C.B. In the-army the
Inspector of Hospitals was made a K.C.8., as he had said ;
five hospital surgeons were advanced to the rank of C. 8., yet
only one medical officer was shni arly honoured in the naval
department, although in all the great actions he the Crimea
the naval medical department had rendered, in those bloody
fields, the most important services, (Hear.) He thought
the appointment of a committee would be productive of great
good, and he should, therefore, support the motion.
Admiral BERKELEY said, the hon. and gallant member
for Bath had picked out, from a list of 300 names, some dozen
persons belonging to the aristocracy, whose promotion, he
said, had been gained by interest and favour, and not by
merit. It was not pleasant to speak of One's self, but he would
ask the hon. member for Bath to look at his (Admiral Der-
Mee) services, and see if he had not won his promotion by
those services. So far from his having any interest in those
days, ids. father was a staunch opponent of the Admiralty by
whom he was promoted, and his father never asked a
favour in his life. (Hear.) The hon., gentleman had also al-
luded to a friend of his, the Iton. Richard Dundee, who com-
manded the fleet in the Baltic last year, and was pleased to
point him ant as ono who had gained his present station
through intereet, and not through Isis own merit. Now. he
most positively asserted, and ho could appeal to the right hon.
baronet the member for Carlisle for confirmation of the state-
ment, that no one ever asked for the .appointment. He was
the person who recommended the Hon. R. Dundas to the
right lion, baronet (Sir James Graham). The right hon. baro-
net took great pains to trace the career of the gallant admi-
ral. He obtained the opinions of men of high rank, attmog
others that of Sir William Parker, as to his fitness for the ap-
pointment, and Admiral Dundas, in consequence of character
and not from interest, was appointed to the command of that
fleet. (Hear.) He wished to say only one word with regard to
the manning of the- navy. He regretted that naval officers
should stir in that matter, They ought to know they were
treading en very delicate ground with British sailors. The
fleet had been manned without bounty, and supposing bounty
had been offered, without embargo, it would have been of no
use whatever. In the last war, when recourse was bad to
bounty and press, au embargo was laid on merchant ships
not to go to sea until the men of war were manne 1. The
effect was greatly to embarrass trade. No such plan had
been resorted to during the present war, and be was happy
to say the fleet, at the present moment, was thoroughly
manned. When it was remembered that in two years we had.
increased the number of men for the navy ly 24,000, he
thought little fault could be found that bounty had not been
given, and the mercantile marine thereby distressed, (Hear,
hear.) The hon. and gallant officer had quoted some words
which lie had used on a former occasion when a smiler mo.
tion was before the house. Sitting- on the Treasury Tench he
was just as anxious for his profession as when he was an inde-
pendent member. There was a time when, like most naval
officers, he thought tke Secretary of the Admiralty ongbt to
be a naval man, but he could only say, with 12 years' exec-
rience of the working of the Admiralty, be had completely
changed his opinion, Without wishing to disparage the t
.vo
naval officers who in that period had filled the office, he must
say he never wished to see a naval man as Secretary to the
Admiralty again. Gentlemen talked of, but hardly knew
what were the duties of the Secretary to the Admiralty.
There was- nothing naval in them, and if they knew the con-
stitution and working of the board, they world perhaps
change their opinion, as he lad done. In conclusion the gal-
lant admiral said he had risen to make these few rem irks be-
cause he was convinced his gallant friend would not wish to
say anything to annoy Admiral Dundas, and would not again
assert that he (Admiral Berkeley) had been pushed forward
through interest, and interest alone. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. LINDSAY said that after the remarks of the gallant
admiral, and of the lam. bart, the member for Carlisle, the
house might think the present system of the Admiralty was
perfect. He, however, differed from that opinion, and thought
that on the contrary strong grounds had been shown in favour of
the motion. It had been proved that when they had peace, as
he hoped they soon should have, they would have more men on
the active list than they could employ, thus creating general
disappointment and general discontent among the officers
thus pieced in inactivity. Look at the list as it stood now.
In July last they .utd 2,225 officers, from flag officers down to
lieutenants, and of those only 1,232 were employed, and that
In a time of war. Such a fact as that alone would justify this
inquiry. But he had also looked at the cost, and he found the
country was paying for 993 officers on the active list, but who
were necessarily inactive, a total of 186,0001., and to those on
the retired lista total of 298,272/., making a total sum paid in
tune of war, to active officers anxious for employment, and dis-
contented,and justly so, at not receiving it, and t 'those on the
retired and half-pay list, of 488,3581. Ho considered, therefore,
that this was an important suliject and worthy of inquiry. At
the close of the last war —and what then took place ought to
act as a warning against the close of this war—in 1817,
the total number of seamen and marines voted for the year
was only 19,0(10, and yet the number of active officers, from
flag officers down to lieutenants, was 5,891. The result na-
turally was the greatest discontent, and to show how far that
discontent went, lie would remind the house of the anecdote
of the naval officer, who, after hanging about the Admiralty,
without getting any employment, went in his gold-laced
uniform and swept the crossing in front of Whitehall. Of
course, he very soon got an appointment. The right lion.
member had denied that promotion went by influence, and
had spoken of canes being picked out. To avoid that charge,
lie (Mr. Lindsay) would take a single case, that of the nine
admirals who in 1842 waited on her Majesty when she visited
Portsmouth, anti he found that the united services of those
admirals, from the time they left the midshipman's berth to
their pot rank, when they were considered fit to command
a frigate, was just 2/ years, while, if he went to the flag-
ship at Portsmouth, in the year pr ceding the Britannia, he
found four lieutenants, whose joint period of service was 56
years, aud on board the Victory lie found seven lieutenants,
whose joint service was 131 years. fie was surprised that the
Government would resist an inquiry into discrepancies like
these, and, therefore, ho trusted the house would grant the
very reasonable motion before it.

Mr. BASS supported the motion, believing that promotion
in the navy was given, not to merit, but to interest. He re-
membered hearing a conversation in the precincts of the
'house, after a celebrated dinner at the Reform Club, at which
the right hon. baronet (Sir J: Graham) was present, and on
that occasion some distinguished member of that house said,
" Now it is all out. We always thought promotion in the
navy was given only to Whigs and Radicals, a d now S r
James Graham has confessed it." (Laughter.) If such a be-
lief prevailed in that house—ho dkl not mean to say it was
well founded—at all events they should inquire whether it
was true or not. He could not conceive that there could be
any substantial objection to the motion of the gallant Admi-
ral. He should therefore support the motion.
ir F. BARING said it was -a difficult thing to get appoint-
ments in the navy, and he had found that in experience as
First Lord. His practice was to carry out Lord Auckland's
amount to positive promises.
list, the prior First Lord, but he could not avoid making
selections ; for Lord Auckland was in the habit of writing very
had whichrst
(Laughter.) He made alterations in favour of old and meri-
torious officers. . He must say that, as there was general accu-
sations, he e
justice thoughtdone
.o f
Forall himself,persons.
kind letters,
he could say
.that he knew firs own motives best, p..ad he never
the °Fni% t ailsolallsF
gave an appointmeutbut for the good of the public service.
Sir C. NAPIER said he had hoped to have brought forward
his own motion upon the operations of the Baltic fleet that
night, but it was then too late. When, however, he found
the First Lords 'of the Admiralty get up, one after the
other, in praise of themselves and their own doings,
he could not resist giving the house some idea of his own ex-
perience on that subje\:t. He was no little surprised to find
the First Lord of the Admiralty quote a letter of his (Sir C.
Napier's) own ; but.that letter was written thirty years ago, ,
and was not applicable to the present time. His letter was
written thirty years ago, when the navy was in very bad order.
But this was-. taken from " Junius." • When they saw bad
ships built, and promotions made from political influence,
things were bad indeed. He had not been able to find the
passage, but ho would search .for it. The right hon. baronet
the First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir C. Wood) said, that of
the promotions made by First Lords one appointment in
three was given to old and meritorious officers. He had
thought such an assertion perfectly absurd, for ho knew the
First Lords used to give the appointment to whom they
pleased ; but if it was true that the system was changed, he
begged leave to congratulate the right hon. baronet and the
house upon it. But if he meant to say that he never made
any promotions without consulting the Naval Lords, he
should have thought that monstrous ; but if that, too, was
true, he was delighted to hear it, and hoped. they would stick
to it. It would do more justice to the service than anything
else that could be thought of.. There was another thing rela-
tive to the bounty that was given to seamen. The right hon.
bart. (Sir C. Wood) said it was very
,ticklish ground to touch
reason, he (Sir C.
upon, and, for that Napier) thought it
ought to be settled at once. The. right. hon. bart; said he had
formerly brought forward a bill provlding that double bounty
the
Ld
oar,
least
not'
should be paid to seamen, but he had pointed out the folly
and danger of that-brn,for the men who were in the service
at the time would receive a bounty of 4,0001. or 5,000/. a
year,
whereas the o
was object that should be kept in view was
that a bounty useless, unless their position was
changed into one of actual warfare, He (Sir Charles
Napier) Was opposed to that bill ; and what was the
result ? Why, that they could not issue a proclamation with-
out everyman receiving bounty, which would cost half a mil-
lion of money; and the consequence was, that nainan re.
GoiTOd fulaliEgt With regard to the Baltic AGO, he had told
____