The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-08 00:00:00

LONDON,

SATURDAY EVENING,

MARCH 8, 1851.

" eeenete r—etee te. t/
lee telo ee) tr ; ,IL:111 oe yeey gfeat,
for they had placed confidence in the statement of the
Noble Lord, and on the dcclaraticn made in the Speech
from the Throne on the subject, and their impression
now would be that their confidence had been betrayed.
The general feeling throughout tho country was that
the resigeation of the Noble Lord's Ministry had been
occasioned by this Bill, and until he head it denied it
was en opinion in which he would these: and therefore,
though the modification of the Bill might please some
parties, adherents of the Noble Lore, because it placed
him in power, the people of the country had a right to
expect some better explanation for the disappoint-
ment to which they would be now eubjected.
—(Hear, hear.) The Sovereign must think that her
prerogative had not been protected—that her rights,
her eepreinacy, and her authority had not been
well trusted in the hands in which they were now
placed, when toia altered measure wee the only result ef
the Noble Lord's letter, of the Noble Lord's speech, and
of the Speech from the Throne, which her Majesty had
been advised by the Noble Lord's Government to ad-
dress to Parliament. He (Mr. Banker) had on the first
introduction of the Bill called the attention of the Noble
Lord to the synodal action of the Roman Catholic vier-
archy, as exemplified in the instance of the Synod of
Thurles. That, in his opinion, was the gravest ques-
tion in connexion with the matter—a body of prig ats
sitting in judgment upon every subject, from mixed
schools to tenant-right. The greate.t danger lay in that
direction, in his oandon. • The Hon. Member then
quoted a passage fn en a speech of Lord Liverpool, tie-
livered May 17, 1825. on the Catholic claims, which
was to the effect that the danger of concession was not
immediate, but remote; that, however, it was equally
certain, and that the object of the Catholic Church ever
was, and ever would be, to destroy Protestantism. The
noble speaker, in conclusion, considered the hope of
union by a common education as visionary. The Cs-
thobe claims, nowever, were conceded, and a common
education was proposed; but the Synod of Thurles in-
terfered, and put an eed to it, as had been pro:Hetet' by
Lord Liverpool. He (Mr. Bankes) complained tnat the
Bill did not meet this danger; and that it was therefore
an illusion and a mockery.
Mr. GLADSTONE suggested that the Noble Lord
should print the changes he proposed to make in the Bill.
He understood that words were to be added to the first
clause to distinguish the bishops of the Church in Scot-
land; and he also presumed that some alteration would
be made in the preamble of the Bill the language of
which as it stood now was so wide as to cover everything.
He was aware that it was not usual to print alteratiuhs;
but he hoped the Noble Lord would do so in the present
instance.
Lord C. HAMILTON asked the House whether it
ever conceived it possible that the original Bill could be
reduced to such a miserable remnant. The original Bill
was framed to prevent the assumption of ecclesiastical
titles, and the preamble referred to 10th Geo. IV., in-
flicting a penalty of 1001. on such assumption. The in-
tention of the Government, however, it now appeared,
was somewhat different. They had, four months after
the Bill wss framed, discovered doubts and difficulties in
respect to Irelane, and the Secretary of State proposed
to omit the second and third clauses of the Bill. The
Right Hon. Gentleman proved that the law had been in-
operative in Ireland for the last twenty-one years, and
that the Crown had not prosecuted under the 10th
Geo. IV.; but what reason existed why Ireland should
be excluded, in the event of the new creations of sees in
that country ? It did not seem to him to be worth while
to excite the country for such a result as the measure
now proposed by the Government.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I have no objection to the course
proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone),
and am willing to print in a separate shape any parts of
the Bill which would not otherwise be priuted until aft, r
the second reeding. With regard to the clauses which
we propose o omit, it will not be necessary to reprint
them; but the preamble and first clause, as amended,
shall be laid before the House. I wish to correct some
teisepprehensions of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dorsetshire (Mr. Bathes). The Hon. Member said it is
well known that the assumption ef episcopal titles by
prelates nut of the Established Church is against th-e
law as it at present stands, and that the Govereraent
faired in their duty in not prosecuting those persons who
were guilty of this offence. Now, the statement I made
in the letter to which he alludes was that the law officers
of the Crown should consider the [resent state of the
law, and if the law were not applicable we would consi-
der whether any measure could not be introduced enact-
ing a new law to meet the case. Questions were ac
cordingly put to the law officers; of the Crown, which
were formally and regularly drawn up. To these
questions we received answers, of which I will now state
the /übstaece, and to which I adverted on a former
cceasion.
Mr. BANKES—Did they refer to Ireland?
Lord J. RUSSELL—To the assumption of these new

rf ' ,

1100 p,opie in Ireiunc, attd watt various other
matters in Ireland, some of which are partly temporal
and partly spiritual, and others of which are of a wholly
temporal character. But Ido not think, because we have
those dangers to apprehend, that it would he right, even
if it were possible, to prevent the meeting of bishops of
the Roman Catholic Church for matters of :a merely spi-
ritu d wtjure.—(Hear, hear.) Bunposing there is a
Roman Carbolic Church in Ir,iarid, arid a numerous Ro-
man Catholic violation, every one must wish that the
Roman C.Ahnlio bishops should have the power
of superintending the moral conduct of their clergy,
and have the meti,:s (without calling in the
assistatic.- of the temporal power) or prevent-
ing any immorality .htch might occur amongst the
clrray. Ameri all, looking at this question with refer-
' ence to temporal p-wer, lem without apprehension. I
hsve no apprehensions with respect to this country, be-
cause the feeling of this country has I:Qeu shown so ge-
nerally altuost unanimousl;., in favour of our Prote,itant,
faith, that I do not think there is any danger in Ero.itni.
I cannot say it i 80 in Ireland. I cannot say vita :he
Homan Cath4c pries::hood in Ireland may not tutier•
fere seriously and mischievously in rnporal matters.
The subject rt.quirt,s coosideration; ',And eve must see in
what thanm,r toe Government ~f the Roman Sees and
tho niAops Ireland tiro:, betor, we agre,3 to a measure
upon lha.t suji ct. I ate of opinion that we ought to
confine our,eiv,s in this Bill to it legislative measure
which should assert absolutely the sovereignty of the
(ICI. en.

Mre NE WDEG ATEs did he conceived the real offence
to be the sniffling of it cardinal into thie country, to con-
stitute a legislature not only for the ,pirituril but the
temporal affairs of Rome. He believed that the powers
and privileeea, of a eerdinal and legate were unknown
ro most of chose who were about to legislate upon
this question. According to a book which we uld be
;admitted to be an authority, " 'Phe Cu. to di Roma,"
printed at Marseilles in 1774, ail effairs—civil, eccle-
siastical and poli icel—were ceramitted to the bishops
and afchbisteips; so that such men as Dr. Cullen would
be exercising those powers in Ireland. In another book,
" The Notitia Con, iegationum,",prin ed in 1693, uader
the head " De Previligios Cardinalium," it was said that
a man who had been elected a cardinal was by that
freed from the power of his country. Then, if so, Car-
dinal Wiseman was not only an alien but an outlaw. He
could not regard without regret the effect of this measure
upon the character of this country as a free and consti-
tutional kingdom among the natio. s abroad England,
!side a Church claiming fur its head a Queen who was
interior to none, atter having four mouths agitated upon
the question, and when 395 Members of the House of
Commons had declared that something should be done,
had a Government which, by the paltry measure it now
introduced, declared itself to be utterly impotent to of
feet anything.—(Hear, hear.) The Roman Catholics
might well laugh at the course proposed by the Govern-
ment, and Cardinal Antonelli must look on the Right
Honourable Baronet (Sir George Grey) as the most met'.
ficient state officer that ever held such a position; and
on comparing the impotency ot this country with the
poleficy of Rome, supported as her ate.hority was by
French bayonets, the Cardinal must say " representa-
tive Governments and constitutional kingdoms are after
all a farce." After giving credit to' the Noble Lord for
his expressed intention of resisting the insult offered to
the Crown, and vindicating the independence of the na-
tion, it would be showing but tittle deference to the opi-
nions of his constituents if he did not at once liberate
himself from the pledge which he had given, and declare
thet he no longer considered himself bound to support a
measure which in his conscience he believed to be to-
tally inefficient.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. STANFORD said the Noble Lord must certainly
feel disappoint, dat the reception which this paltry mea-
sure had feet; and it was a very had one when the Hon.
Member f et Oxford indulged in metaphorical pleasantry
on the occasion. If he (Mr. Stanford) were asked to ex-
press his opinion on the same speech, he should say this,
that he had been under the impression that the Noble
Lord last week, like another very distinguished per-
former, was about to take his final leave of the stage;
but now, from the announcement made this evening be
her INl,jesty's; servants, it appeared that the old company
was to appear for the second time this season on Friday
next, in ‘• Papal Aggrefecion," a serio-comic drama, with
the fifth act l- flout.—(Hear, and laughter.) After wh ch
the Ilouse was to be iedulged with th, popular drama
of " The Budget," the uhrivailed clown of the establish
meat undertaking to jump clean through the windows—
(Laughter)—and the entertainments were to wind up
with toe • Crystal Palace." This might be a very plea-
sant programme, but he doubted whether the Noble Lord
and his company would give any great satiaferetion either.
,o the boxe-, pit, or gallery; and he would advise the
Noble Lord to take warning Iv what befel Romeo Coates.
The only part of the performance of that celebrated man
which met with any applause was that in which he gave
up the ghost.—(Langhter.) In enacting that part Ro
moo Coffees was always celled upon to die again, and so
, might the Noble Lord with res,ard to this measure.—
(neer, hear.) But to treat the matter seriously. He
had paid great attention to the speeches of the most
eminent and distinguished statesreen, and it was univer-
sally admitted that it would be unwise and inexpedient
to dissolve Parliament. He believed that all the Mem-
bers of the House would endeavour to support the Go-
vernment in getting through the hu,ibess of thecountry.
and that no intention existed ot offering them any frac
thus opposition. ther., was no insurmountable ob-
stacle, except the financial ;dens of the Go-
vernment. It the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
so modify his plin as to do justice to the agricultural
class, by placing them in the same poeith n as
persons in trade, estebltshing the principle that were
there is no profit there shall he no tax; if he couli only
du common justice to the trading interests of the country
by reeking- a distinction between the sum levied on
realiz d property and fluctuating incomes and mercan-
ode profits, he had not the least doubt that the Hon.
' Gentleman's financial and fiscal difficulties weald be
easily overcome. But one monstrous difficulty remained
behind, which, aft, r the explanations given this evening,
had not been removed—he meant the question of Papal
aggression. He should be sorry to say anything to hurt
the feelings of his Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen.
He wished them to retain perfect freedom of conscience,
and those liberties which were so justly prized by all
classes. But he did believe that if ever the vox popuii
voz Dei had been illustrated it had been so on the present
occasion; and he considered the measure of the Right
Hen. Baronet would be sufficient to irritate many, whilst
it would be useful to none.—(Hear, hear.) It was ad-
mitted by the Noble Lord that the Bishop of Rome has
infringed ieternational law; and this point was clearly
raised by Vattel, who proved that the Bishop et
Rome invaded the law ot nations when he attacked
the prerogatives of Sovereigns by appointing persons
with ecclesiastical titles, and giving them territorial ju
risdiction. If the Government did not think it wise or
prudent to punish such an act, surely Parliament ought
to express its opinion on the subject. It would be un-
wise to make this a cases belli, and attack the Pope, for
the policy of the Pope would survive whatever might
be douse; but it was undobtedly right that Parliament
should re-echo the sentiments of the people. Sir Ed-
ward Sugden said the law had been infringed; but the
law officers of the Crown had declined to put the law in
motion. If they had thought it right to pass an Act to
render the law more operative, perhaps they would have
satisfied the people better; but he considered the pre-
sent measure most inadequate, and believed that it
would cause the greatest possible dissatisfaction. fie
thought it desirable to follow the precedent set in 1801,
when Parliament appointed simultaneous Committees
.
of both Houses, each having power to communicate
twtta.ti:
the other, for at this time it was most necessary to
into consideration the relation of Roman Catholics to the
Constitution and the Sovereign.—(Hear.
hear.)
Lord oppo
Mr. PLUMP IRE agreed
reed with the N
site that the proper mode of dealing with this subject
was by direct gislation, for the e
01:-
mittees feeuld lead to a great dealappooitntdmeelz ofwithout
Lord had characterised the proceedings
being productive of any good consteluencoofs.thre PopeNobales
an
all)?
hteh oo gg
hh
tt
it g insolentht to inacrd t itnhsaifti ious
aggression aggression;
b y iegainstlin it
if
, but the omission of
to have done so in an effcatual.
tWh ae
,3113.ainl
if wouldp as
sneutraliseanythe sgeezdndeffaenedt third imrdigchlat
haduhslewseot
he believ.ed the measure would
(Hear, hear.)y The Noble
blaewofinlititt sl
e amendedpracticalwwtsaohhusui shape, eint,.
toyn
t.o_t
the Church of Rome, but heby this IL
d
Lord objected very properly to
not
proposesnrfdical action of
to touch that syuodical action.
soma
trusted,f however,
the Noble Lord would devise way meeting
that
evil, and also the evil reseuolotnintgrgyi.vf—reorsHaettiahsrre2„caltieoii.s)stioonTtnhoeef
Papal bulls into
ppereospelentof
uetry.—(Hear, hear.) The Protestant
ra Romanp,rse
uCtiantgholiceouenoturryi:
r had no wish
people of this count h to show a per.
secuting spirit towards
measure
thisT o
coun-
trymen.
Toleration was carried to
were to its utmost limits. But the Pro-
testant people of this
acquainted in some
measure with the character of the Church of Rome, both
from
the past hietory of the world and its delineation in
Holy Writ. The Protestant people of this country
would give the Roman Catholics free toleration for the
exercise of their religion, bet they did not wish to be
persecuted themselves; they wished to retain the full
and free exercise of their religion, and were afraid of the
Church of Rome attaining that power at which she was
aiming.—(Hear, hear.) 'the Protestant people of this
country were a religious people—a Bible-loving people—
who would not abandon their tight of private judgment;
but they knew that the Church of Rume, wherever it
obtained predominance, interfered with the right of pri-
vate judgment, and forbade the free use of the Scriptures,
for the Protestant people of this country felt great zeal
for the honour of their Queen, but above all they were
animated by an
earnest zeal for the honour of God and
the maintenance of the truth. They felt that in this ag-
gression made by the Church of Rome on this country
those things which they moat deeply prize are greatly in
danger, and therefore they had been most deeply and
justly excited on the subject,—(Hear, hear.) He was
afraid the Bill proposed by the Noble Lold would not
satiefy the just e ti of the people, or the case
esesca , . xpec a one
"' it was intended to meet; but he trusted that it
would receive such amendments in Committee as would
render it a satisfactory and efficient measure.—(Elear.)
Mr, FAGAN contended that no insult had been
offered to the country by the Pope of Rome, for it was
quite clear that DO insult was intended. The object
which the Pope had in view was altogether of a spiritual
nature, and the step taken by him was intended for the
spiritual government of the Roman CathoLcs in this
Country. He was cerroberated in his opinion teat no
insult had been offered to this country by the opinion of
an English Protestant bishop (th© Bishop of St. David's),
who distinctly stated that no insult was intended,—
(Hear, hear.) So far cis the present measure had a ten-
dency to infringe the great principles of religious liberty,
he should fee-I it his duty to give it every opposition.
Colenel SIB rtioßP considered the observations of
the Hon. Member for Oxford quite peemature. when he
pronounced a eulogiutu ran the Noble Lord and thanked

YORK, MARCH 6.
",TOOR lEXCHA NGE. -Th e transactions
tollow :—Lancashire and Yorkshire, Fifths, 4'41/li` rre
fle3r4ence
, 9.
Great Northern, 18%—York 3A '-
and North lgidlanut

dit2Y'Lla

OF A SOW.
On the sth inst., at Brighton Lady Londesboroughtooo
On the sth inst., at the Vicarage, Aldeburgh, P"'"
Mrs. Henry T. Dowler.
OF A DAUGHTER.
On the sth inst. at Harrietaham Rectory, Kent, the Wlta
of the Rev. J. C. B. Riddell.
On the 4th inst., at Sutton, Surrey, the lady of 1
Clode Braddon,

On the 7th inst., by speciaIMARRIED
license, in the parish churcti.
St. Andrew's, in the county of Middlesez, by the Be* j
Toogood, Mr. Thomas Ityley, of Mickleover, in the couri',,
oft Drby, to Matila ade, of the same plce.
ne the 4th inst.,d atW the Catholic Church,a Chelsea. Bobeo
Berkeley, Esq., jun., of Spetchley-park, Worcestershire,
Catherine, youngest (laughter of the Lion. Colonel Brow t.
and niece of the Earl of Ke mare.
On the 4th inst., at Christ Church, Marylebone, the 'EI;
Stewart W. Elavna, to Frances E. C. Elagrave, third dangicue.
ter of the late C. U. 131agrave, Esq.,of the .13w)0 (jivn

D;
ton, Als.arl2
.
On the sth inst., at Rope-hill, near Lymin
wilf
he sth inst., Gartshore, Esq., of Gartshore, Dumbartoq._ol.l
n t Mr. Thomas Davie, of Harleyford
Vauxhall. Bsq•
On the 6th inst., at Bryanston-square, H. S. Eyre'
g

01
London: Printed and Published by DIURDO YOtri-w,
119 i
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, o'
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the coPtY
Middlesex, Saturday, March 8, 1851.