The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-21 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

Earl FITZWILLIAM presented several petitions
against Papal aggression.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several
petitions with a similar prayer.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA presented thirty-four
petitions against Papal aggression. He believed it was
of little avail to present petitions, but it' the Protestants
meant to fight the battle of Protestantism, they
must fight it at the next dissolution. Petitions,
signed by 2,000,000 of people against Maynooth
had been treated as waste piper; and he gave warning
to his Protestant fellow-subjects, that if they wished to
fight the battle of Protestantism, they must tight it
themselves.

The NonLx EARL then presented a petition from Sim-
ford complaining of agricultural distress, and against
free trade. Free trade had bee❑ proposed as an experi-
ment, and it had signally failed. He believed that
under a system of protection the country would be pro-
vided with wheat at a cheaper rate, taking a period of
twenty years. than under a system of free trade.
Lord WODEHOUSE said that there was no distress
in the agricultural districts with which ho was con-
nected.

Lord SONDES considered that the agriculturists
were suffering distress.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 20.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
PETITIONS.

A large number of petitions were presented against the
Papal aggression, some of them praying for a more strin-
gent law than that which was likely to arise from the
Bill brought in by the Ministry of the day.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR presented petitions from Glasgow
and two other places, praying the House to inquire into
the several land appropriation schemes which had been
tput before the public.
Mr. G. Berkeley, Mr. Horner, Mr. Stansfield, and
other Members, presented petitions from the Wesleyan
Methodists of Chdtenbam, Leominster, and other places,
against Papal aggression, and asking for a stronger
measure than that now before the House.

Mr. HAMILTON presented petitions from several
places in Ireland, praying that the Lord-Lieutenancy of
Ireland Bill may not pass into a law.
Mr. SCULLY presented several petitions from Ire-
land praying that the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill may not
be passed.
Mr. ROEBUCK presented several petitions from the
Roman Catholic inhabitants of Sheffield and other places,
against the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Mr. COBDEN also presented several petitions to the
same eff,;ct.

Sir CHARLES LEMON presented petitions from the
Protestants in England, and Dr. POWER from the Roman
Catholics in Ireland, against the Bill.
Mr. PETO and Mr. HENLEY presented petitions from
several Wesley'a❑ congregations in Norfolk, Suffolk, Ox-
fordshire, and Northamptonshire against the Papal Ag-
gression Bill, and praying for a much more stringent
measure.

Similar petitions were presented by Mr. AUGUSTUS
STAFFORD and several other Members.

Mr. PETO preseuted petitions from Norwich and
Chesterfield, and by Mr. BERNAL from Sydenham and
Kent, against the duty on paper.
Mr. WYNDLILUL GOOLD presented a petition from
the Protestants of Bruff, Uro'an, and Manister, county
of Limerick, in favour of the Church Education Suciety.

Mr. MILNER GIBSON presented a petition from the
inhabitants of London against the taxes on knowledge.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from the vestry
and inhabitants of Lambeth against the window-tax.
Mr. WILLIAMS also presented a petition from
Lambeth against the Papal aggression.
Mr. LANGSTON presented a petition from the
Roman Catholics of Oxford to the same effect.

Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from Lambeth
praying for an inquiry into the several schemes for the
purchase of land now before the public.
MERCANTILE MARINE.

In reply to a questirn, Mr. LABOUCHERE stated
that with respect to the plans and mode of working of
the Mercantile Marine Act, all the memorials were now
in his possession, and he should shortly make a full state-
ment to the House.
LEICESTER WATERWORKS BILL.

In reply to a question from Mr. FREWEN,
Mr. WILSON PA.TTEN stated that the Standing
Orders' Committee had not dispensed with the standing
orders on the Bill.
Mr. ELLIS stated that the capital to be raised by this
company was very considerable, that ho had himself a
great interest in it, but that he should be ready to
part with that interest for nothing as soon as the Bill
should be carried.—(Loud cheers.) He thought he need
say no more.—(Renewed cheers.)
DENMARK AND THE DUCHIES.
Mr. URQUHART Wished to ask the Noble Lord the
Foreign Secretary when the papers connected with the
affairs of the Duchies and Denmark would be laid on the
table
RSTON said it was not his
intention
any further papers to the
e r f t h
to House?l IE
Ld
A send
House on the subject. and for this reason—
the papers referred to embraced a correspondence
extending over
a period of two or three years which
vith almost every power north of
200 folio pages of letter-press,
the
edAlps. been carried
It
occupied on
and no Hon. Member would ever think of reading it,
at all events if he did he would only waste his time,
for the correspondence, although of importance when it
first took place, had lost its interest by the lapse of time.
The treaty relating to the affairs of the Duchies and
Demumnark t
RilaQdUail said perhaps the Noble LordlrAßT
already been laid before Parliament.
would lay on the table those parts of it which related
to the succession to the throne of Denmark.
Lord PALMERSTON said her Majesty's Govern-
ment bad altogether held aloof from that question, and
had entirely devoted themselves to mediation to bring
about peace between Denmark and the Duchies. It was
true the correspondence indirectly referred to the sub-
ject of the succession; but still it was not advisable
to lay those points
THEefore KAFIRouse WAR.
Mr. ADDERLEY wished to ask the Under-Secretary
for the Colonies how loon the Cape dispatches, relating
both to the constitution and to the Kafir disturbance,
would be !aid before the House. Also, whether he would
present at the same time copies of recent petitions to
her Majesty on the subject of the promised constitution,
and memorials from public meetings, which had been
placed in his hands; and, whether he would present to the
House copies of New Zealand ordinances pared year by
year, since the last presentation of such copies of local
ordinances to this House?
Mr. HAWES, in answer to the first question, stated.
that he held in his hand the papers referred to, and
t
was his intention to lay them on the table to-night.
The petitions and other documents should also be pro-
duced but they could not all be completed for some time
to come.

NEW BRUNSWICK.
Mr. ROEBUCK had seen a statement in the news-
papers to the effect that a legislative council had been
conceded to New Brunswick ; and he should be glad
to know from the Hon, Gentleman the Under-Secretary
for the Colonies if the report was correct?
Mr. HAWES wished his Hon. and Learned Friend
had given him notice of the question, because then he
should have been able to give him a more satisfactory
answer. Undoubtedly the general principle of a legis-
lative council had been granted to New Brunswick, and
therefore there was a foundation for the report.
STEA.NI TO AUSTRALIA.
Lord NAAS wished to ask the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, in reference to the statement made by him that
the tenders received for establishing steam communica-
tion with Australia were unsatisfactory, whether the
Government had before them now, an offer from re-
spectable persons to establish and maintain that service
for the amount arising from postage only, without any
grant from the Exchequer?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
question was one that should be submitted to the Com-
mittee sitting on the subject, and therefore ho must de-
cline answering it.
STREET MUSIC.
Colonel SIBTHORP called the attention of the Right
Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment to the practice of playing barrel organs in the
public thoroughfares, and as it rendered the driving of
vehicles dangerous, he should be glad to know if nothing
could be done to abate the nuisance?
Sir G. GREY said the Metropolitan Police Act made
the practice referred to an offence at law, and the police
had authority to remove street music whenever it was
dangerous or an obstruction to the traffic of public
thoroughfares.
SUNDAY TRADING BILL.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS, in adverting to a few questions
put to him the other night by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Youghal, contradicted the report that the
expenses of the Sunday Trading Bill were defrayed out
of the parish rates of Lambeth.
PASSPORT SYSTEM.
Lord MATION nee to move an address to her Ma-
jesty, praying that she will be graciously pleased to
oause an inquiry to be made whether improvements
might not be effected in the system of granting pass-
ports to her Majesty's subjecta travelling in foreign
states. The Noble Lord said that, in the month of
May last, he had called the attention of the House to
the subject, and had complained then that the high
price put upon passports compelled almost every one
about to travel abroad to take a passport from a foreign
consul. The House had then evinced so much interest
in the matter that he had been emboldened to give
notice of a motion on the subject, which he did on. the
20th of February. A few days after at u9tice appeared

in the Gazette to reduce the price of passports to 7s. 6d.
He must express his thanks to the Noble Lord even for
this concession, but he still felt justified in calling upon
the House to consider whether the system, even thus
improved, was not attended with* great anomalies. A
person who was travelling from London to Madrid, if he
did not choose to pay the fee at the Foreign-office,
could get a passport from the French Anabssador to
Paris free of any charge, and on arriving there, if he
applied to Lord Normanby he would be able to
get from him free of char; e a passport to Madrid. He
thought it would be much better to equalize the charge,
to make it half-a-crown here, and impose the same
charge on the passports obtained from English ambassa-
dors abroad, which would do away with the system of
Englishmen obtaining passports from foreign ministers.
He would also recommend the establishment of some
central passport-office under the superintendence of
the Foreign Secretary. There was no disputing that it
was a happiness for this country that the passport sys-
tem was not in force in it, and it would be well if
foreign countries would follow her example, especially
since Don Carlos had proved the inutility of it, by
travelling through the whole of France without
a passport, and reaching the Basque provinces
without once being stopped.—(Hear, hear.) The
present system of granting passports was in point
of principle entirely indefensible, and he considered that
the inconvenience might be altogether avoided by re-
ducing the expense of all passports at the Foreign-
office to a small uniform rate, say 2s. or 2s. 6d. each.
Every one who had read the newspapers within the last
twelve months must be acquainted with the evils and
annoyances which persons travelling abroad were subject
to, and how British interests consequently suffered by
the delay in obtaining passports. He would suggest
whether it might not be possible to send blank passports
to responsible local authorities abroad, who would have
the power to supply them to all proper parties, and thus
avoid the trouble and expense consequent on the present
system. It remained for him only to inquire on what ground
this report was adopted. They had in effect neutralised all
the objects for which the inquiry was instituted, and it
therefore remained to be considered what was the best
plan noe, to pursue. There was now no necessity for
the discussion of the facts, for they had them all
before them, and he was very unwilling to
take up the time of the House on a ques-
tion like this, and be had consequently adopted a
motion for an address to her Majesty praying for some
regulation of the letters issued by the Secretary of State
to persons going abroad. That was the most consistent
course that could be taken, for it was useless to recal
the several measures which had been considered for re-
medying the evil, and he should consequently confine
himself to the terms of his motion, that an address be
presented to her Majesty praying for an inquiry into the
mode of granting passports.
A message having been brought from the House of
Lords,
Lord PALMERSTON proceeded to say that he
was quite sure that no one could quarrel with
the manner in which the Noble Lord had
brought the subject before the House. The
Noble Lord had last session, very usefully has he (Lord
Palmerston) thought, introduced this evil of granting
passports to public notice. He had then very properly
observed that the expedition of Don Carlos through
France, when about to contend for the Spanish
Crown, was a sufficient evidence of the inutility of pass-
ports in securing a country from political intrigue,
but he himself might add another instance. It was that
of the Duchess Do Berri, whose passports were, quite
en regle, and must have been obtained without any in-
quiry. His attention had been drawn to this
subject, but circumstances had occurred during the
last autumn to prevent his carrying out his de-
signs with a view to overturn the system. The
establishments of Austria and Prussia had interposed
peculiar obstacles, but he nevertheless had a great anti-
cipation of so modifying the plan of passports as to
do away at some subsequent period with the most
grievous of the inconveniences which they occasioned,
and be might say that no less anxiety was felt by the
Secretary tor the Home Department to accomplish the
same object. The Noble Lord who was
his predecessor in the Foreign-office, had
stated that he had only granted one passport
to a foreigner, bat that was one more than he had
granted, for he had never granted one. The only occa-
sion on which any number of passports had been
granted through the Foreign-office was through
Mr. leathern, the consul at Rome, who had
given 500 to the fugitives who had departed when the
French took possession of the city, and which were
granted in order that they might depart peaceably and
without any danger to the public tranquillity. The Noble
Lord was mistaken in supposing that there was such vir-
tue in a British passport. It was only a bone fide evidence
that they, were held by a British subject, and very
often, as in France, they were exchanged fir foreign
passports. No matter, however, what passport a Bri-
tish subject held, he was entitled to the protection of
our consul in all cases of danger or difficulty; and again
repeating that the present was only an experiment.
It would not be expedient to accede to this motion, be-
cause it was wholly uncalled for. A Committee appointed
to investigate this trifling subject would be almost
as useless as having the power of four or five horses to
slice cucumbers.—(A laugh.) And he must decidedly
object to that proposal of the Noble Lord too.—(Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT suggested that an exception ought to
be made in favour of naturalised foreigners who had
settled and intended to remain in this country.—(Hear,
hear.) The other day ho applied to the Noble
Lord for a passport in favour of a Greek gentle-
man, who had settled in Manchester for life, but it
was refused, and be should therefore be glad to
see a change made in the existing system, so as to con-
fer upon such persons all the privileges enjoyed by
British subjects.
Mr. M. MILNES thought the power of granting
passports to foreiguers ought always to be carefully ex-
ercised. Austria and Prussia had been striving to force
their passport system upon this country, and he was
not at all sorry that the attempt had been properly re-
sisted.
Mr. URQUHART hoped the Noble Lord at the head
of the Foreign Department would be slow to adopt the
suggestion of the Hon. Member for Manchester.
After a few words of reply from Lord MAHON,
The motion was, by leave, withdrawn.
IRISH POOR-LAW.
Mr. SCULLY moved . fur copies of all correspond-
ence between the Thurles board of guardians and
the Poor-law Commissioners in Ireland, between
the Ist day of January and the 10th day of March,
1851, relative to the refusal by the Poor-law Commis-
sioners to allow the board of guardians to increase the
employment of the inmates in remunerative labour ; and
return of the number fin inmates in the different work-
houses in Ireland, specifyg their ages between 7 and 15,
15 and 20, 20 and 40, and 40 and upwards, the different
sexes, tho number of able-bodied, aged and infirm.
Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE asked the Hon.
Gentleman to postpone his motion till he had an
opportunity of communicating with the department
to which it referred. He had no doubt the returns
would be readily granted, but as an act of courtesy the
Poor-law Commissioners ought to be consulted first,
before the Howe acceded to the motion.
Mr. SCULLY could not comply with the request of
the Right Hon. Baronet, as the motion he had made
was one of considerable imporaance to Ireland and
would admit of no delay. (Oh, oh I) The Thurles
board of guardians were anxious to employ the numerous
inmates in the union workhouse, so as, if possible, to make
it a self-supporting establishment. On the Ist of March,
18 1, there were in the house no fewer than 700 able males,
and 1.100 adult females. The guardians had had some com-
munication with the Board of Manufactures and Industry
in Dublin, with the object of giving the inmates useful and
reproductive employment. The Thurles board of guardians
were prepared to make advances for this purpose, but the
Poor-law Commissioners wrote, and imperatively forbade
the design. They objected to the rewards and stimulants
by which the guardians hoped to encourage the industry of
the inmates. The board wished to form a fund from this
reproductive employment +or the promotion of emigration,
but the Poor-law Commissioners objected to this, on
the ground that there would be such an increase in the
applications for relief, and in the expenditur,i, as to make
the rates very oppressive to the smaller ratepayers.
It was right the House should know whether the
Government adopted this principle of preventing boards
of guardians from making use of the labour of
the inmates in the workhouses, and making these establish..
ments self-supporting. Let the board of guardians have due
authority to use the power they possessed of employing the
inmates of the workhouses as they thought proper, and he
believed that not only would it be the means of raising Ire-
land, and giving a stimulus to those who lived there, but,
through that source of industrial education, would confer a
blessing on the country.
Sir G. GREY was not aware that there was any objection
to this motion, but he would recall to the recollection of
the House what his Right' Hon. Friend the Secretary for
Ireland had stated before the motion was brought on, that
on Tuesday, when the Hon. Gentleman gave notice of his
motion, he had written to Dublin on the subject, and that
there had not yet been time to receive an answer. He
would therefore move that the debate be adjourned to that
day week.
The debate was adjourned accordingly.
SUNDAY TRADING.
Oa the motion of Mr. WILLIAMS, the following Mem-
bers were named as a Select Committee on the Sunday
Trading Prevention Bill :—Mr. W. Williams, Mr. B. Wall,
Mr. Anstey, Sir De Lacy Evans, Sir W. Clay, Sir B. Hall,
Mr. Alderman Humphery, Mr. Masterman, Mr. Wakley,
Lord R. Grosvenor, Mr. Alcock, Lord H. Lennox, Mr.
Bankes, Mr. Kershaw, and Sir David Dundas.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the order of the day for the second reading of the Ec-
clesiastical Titles Bill,
Lord J. MANNERS presented a petition from Colchester,
praying that the Bill might be rendered more effective.
'The debate was then resumed by
Mr. NEWDEGATE, who said that the part of the subject
to which he wished to call the attention of the House was the
aggression on the temporal sovereignty and civil indepen-
dence of this nation which had been committed by the agents
of Rome. Let the House remember, that although the
Bishop of Rome had taken upon himself to establish in this
country a hierarchy under the plea that the body of those
who were adherents of that religion of which they deemed
him the head, required it, he had, moreover, sent here a
cardinal, a privy councillor, selected from his senate as a
legate, to regulate, preserve. and extend his temporal_ au-
thority. Already that had had its effect. The Noble Lord
in his opening speech adverted to the wide range adopted
for its operation by the Synod of Thurles, and that that
synod had entered into that vast social and civil question
between lac dlord and tenant, which was so intricate, so
dangerous, and so deep, that as yet that House, the. legi-
timate Legislature of the country, h.teradsfherrivangkinfrothmetanacteiari
in s
feting with it. But that synod,o n
affairs of Ireland, merely obeyedtheitbaidadhaw bidding of
thatth i
ePope.s
's
in this
legate in that country. He wanted
country Cardinal Wiseman wasalso a legate of the
—a legate a Were, armed with sti l wider powers than
Dr. Cullen, and who,
as he (Mr. Nevvdegate) believed,
merely delayed interfering with our social, civil, and tem-
poral h
affairs until that House should have separated for the
recess. That part of the Tiestion had scarcely been touched
upon by any other speaker than himself; and, as he was
both A aynum and Protestant, he hoped the Rouse would
l

pardon him if be informed them of the nature of the office
and functions Dr. Wiseman came here to exercise, and
showed them that from the earliest periods of our history it
had been contrary to the constitutio i and common law of the
country that a legate of the Pope, and especial a cardinal,
should come into this country without the leave of the So-
vereign, and without an oath taken that he would attempt
nothing against the realm and liberties of the people. If he
could prove this, as he thought he cou.d, he should have con-
tributed his mite to a better understaniing of the question,
and to relieve the measures that were required to repel this
aggression from th 3 invidious imputation of religious per-
secution.—(hear, hear.) He found that there was a meet-
ing of the clergy of the Established Church a few days
ago at Sion College, at which I.r. M'Caul, quoting front
a recognised authority of the Catholic Church, stated that
the order of cardin Is was literally a part of the l apacy
and constitution—the privy council, which was the body
corporate of the Pope, and then gave an account of how
the office and power of the cardinal was wielded throughout.
Frone that account it appeared that the office of cardinal,
when the Pope assumed the temporal attributes of the Em-
peror, was converted into that of privy councillor, and that
the cardinals ought not to be absent from the. Papal
Court except by reason of being sent out as legates. Car-
dinal Wiseman, then, could only be here as a legate. Van
Espin, whose works were recognised at Maynooth, also said
that whatever might be the case with other leg • tes, cardin 1
legates were called legates a latere, because they ere taken
fom the side of the Pope. He believed that Dr. Wiseman
had been asked whether he had taken the oath of privy
councillor, and that his answ-r was, that he had not. But
he had taken the oath of archbishop in full, and that would
be an excuse far not taking the oath of privy councillor;
but he (Mr. Newdegate) could find no possible authority
for the omission. However, the oath of archbishop vas
strictly the oath of privy councillor, binding the party to
discharge temporal functions, and with this remarkable
addition, that for the recovery of such rights and property
as had been alienated from the Romish Church
he would do his utmost. He wanted to show that
Cardinal Wiseman, by his own act as cardinal priest, ad-
verted to that very function of labouring to the utmost for
the recovery of the goods of the Church. It was a very long
time sire_e there had been a cardinal legate in England, and
for this good reason, that it was contrary to the ancient
statute law of this realm that those temporat officers of a
foreign potentate should reside among ue Even Cardinal
Beaufort, the brother of Henry VI., had found it necessary
to have a special statute enacted in his favour before he
could reside in England as cardinal legate; Cardinal Wol ey
was appointed legate at the express instance of Henry
VI I.; and Ca dinal Pole, after he had been compelled to
leave England because he resisted Henry VIII.'s proceed-
ings with the tempo-alities of the Church, was ap-
pointed legate in England, not upon the motion of the
Pope, but at the desire of Queen Mary. In the time of
Elizabeth, the cardinal whom the reigning Pope had sent
to England as nuncio received, in the Netherlands, whence
he had sent to request permission to enter England, a
prohibition from entering the realm, on the distinct ground
that the ancient statutes of the realm declared that no
legato from the Papal Court might reside in England.
Happy would it have been for this country had the advisers
of the present Queen emulated the firmness of those of Queen
Elizabeth. Had but the Noble Lord opposite acted up to
the professions of his letter, he would by this time have been
at the head of one of the most powerful Governments ever
known in this country, and the opposition in Parliament
would have been extinguished altogether, instead of occupy-
ing the position they bad now attained. The Noble Lord
had described the manner in which various foreign countries
had guarded against Papal aggression. Of these Prussia was
the country in which the latest attempt of the kind had been
mare. In 1829 Cardinal A bani was appointed by the Pope
Roman Catholic Bishop of Konigsberg. Upon his re-
fusal to take the oath cf allegiance to the Prussian CrOwn
he was, by order of the Government, at once conducted to
the frontier, under an escort, and sent home. So again, in
1837, when the Archbishop of Cologne had committed vari-
ous acts inconsistent with the civil rule of Prussia, he
was at once placed under surveillance, until he should be re-
moved by the Pope. But here, in Engl nd, a cardinal legate
was allowed at full liberty to machinate, at the head of an
organized conspiracy of priests, agitating the whole country,
and exciting a struggle painful to contemplate. The Nobl3
Lord said he was anxious to prevent synodical action ; all he
need to do was to prevent the presence here of any legate
latere, for, unless by such an official, no synod could be ca-
nonically summoned, and without his presidency the pro-
ceedings of no synod were valid. Cardinal Wiseman had
stated that the late aggression was based upon four conside-
rations— , that previous to 1847 the Catholics were still un-
der the pressure of the penal law, and enjoyed no liberty of
conscience; 2, that the religious orders had previously no
houses in England; 3, that previous to that period there was
nothing approaching parochial divisions; and 4, that the in-
crease of their chapels and ministers had induced the aggres-
sion. After briefly alluding to the Bi 1 which had been in-
troduced by the Hon. Member for Youghal in 1847, for regu-
lating charitable Roman Catholic bequests, which had been
commented upon and objected to by the Law Committee of
the Association of St. Thomas of Canterbury, because it
made Roman Catholic bishops liable to be examined before
a lay tribunal, and which, being opposed by all the Roman
Catholic Members of Parliament on similar grounds, was
subsequently abandoned, the Honourable Member pro-
ceeded to observe, that Cardinal Wiseman relied upon the
religious orders as the instruments of his tyranny. Now,
let the House look at the increase of these establish-
ments within the last few years, and he had an especial
object in directing attention to this portion of the sub-
ject. In 1847 there were 3 t co ,vents in this country; in
1848 there were 38, and in 18 1 they bad increased to 53.
He did not know that there was anything so pe uliarly at-
tractive about these establishments in the eyes of Protestants
that they should rejoice at this increase,_ but he rather
thought that that House would not show a due regard to the
liberty of the subjects of this country if they did not pass
some law for the inspection f those places. (Loud cries of
"'Hear, hear.") It could not be ut of the • ecollection of
the House that the Hon. Baronet the Member for the Uni-
versity of Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis) had a few nights since
presented a petition from the stepfather of a young lady
who was now immured in one of those prisons. Since
that occasion the Honourable Member for üblin had risen
in his place and stated that Miss Talbot was not in
that place as a postulant.— (" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Fagan.) The Hon. Member said " Hear, hear." He
(Air. Newdegate) had the authority of Mr. Craven Berkeley
for stating that he hail been distinctly informed by Miss
Jerningham, who was the head of that religious house, that
Miss Talbot was retained there as a postulant.—(" No, no,"
from Mr. Fagan.) Well ;he had the authority of Miss
Jerningham, or Mrs. Jerningham, or Mother Jerninghatn,
for m3king that statement, and she was the head of that
establishment, and ought to know. (Hear.) He must say
that when he listened to that petition ! c could not help in-
quiring what was the Lord Chancellor about?—(Hear, hear.)
Were his wards, as minors, to be placed, against the will of
tlielet nearest relatives, in convents, secluded from the world?
It! appeared that the powers of that high functionary must
bd strangely crippled if such things were allowed with im-
pdnity. Let the House consider the case of a young girl
separated from the nearest and tenderest ties which nature
had interwoven with the best feelings of mankind, and
pltinged into the cold seclusion of that place of imprison-
men , while the keeper of the Queen's conscience, the highest
functionary of the land, her legal father, sat impotently by
add saw every in-idious art made use of to wring from that
unhappy girl the means of aggrandizing the order to which
she belonged. (Hear, hear.) It was absurd to talk of reli-
gious liberty while such things existed. In his own neigh-
bourhood there were convents—too many. From one of
them some years ago a nun escaped. Unfortunately, she
wis taken back. What did they know further of that
woman? Nothing; except that within a week afterwards
15 cwt. of iron stanchions were put up to barricade the win-
dows, and to convert the place into a perfect prison.—(Hear,
hear.) Women entered there. They died. There was no
account of their illness or their death. No coroner's in-
quest was held. They were utterly shut out from light
and
He didlife
h, ae na
rd, ti
13h, et
rwuos
tu,l
telhaadt do
w,
hfratrn thee v
e rt
he o protectionppo opposition
oonf
mightt e law,
He
that House would insist upon an enactment for looking into
transactions which were thus carefully hidden trout the
mp uobul
ai cs t
eeryi (IHn elaBr4,
7h
teha
ere
r.
wTe hr
ee n 8 h ine ctamvelainiedx,tintolBt4hBe
there were 11, and in 1851 they had increased to 17. He
wanted to know why the Noble Lord, as ha was about to
enact a statute to give effect to some of the clauses of the
Act of 1829, had totally omitted all the clauses with refer-
ence to these regular orders. He asserted that we ha a
right to claim the registration and surveillance which the
Mt of 1829 imposed, and he could not understand why,
when the Noble Lord had had four months to consider what
was to be done, he had so totally forgotten those erovisions
of an Act to which he was for ever expressing his attach-
ment. He had seen it stated that there had been of late a
great decrease of the order of Jesuits, particularly in this
town. Now, he had no great admiration of that order, bet
he rather entertained the opinion which had been so ably ex-
pressed in a most manly and straightforward speech by the
Hon. Member for Tamworth— (Hear,
hear)—and it must be
remembered that that Hon. Baronet spoke with the know-
ledge of a witness—that he had seen their working in a re-
public, in a free country with a population of two-thirds
Protestants and one-third Roman Catholics, and tha he had
seen the happy results of Jesuit intrigue.—(Hear, hear.) He
( Mr. Newdegate) warned the Noble Lord to listen to that
opinion, and he begged also to tender him this infdrmetion—
that there wee n Jesuit missions in London until Cardinal
Wiseman became vicar-apostolic; that he recommended
them and sanctioned their functions; and that they had
en Imously increased since hehadpres idetdhaotvtehe increaserthisdistricotf.
Card.nal Wiseman stated, in his appeal,
that order was to enable him to enforce the decrees of his
master. If so, it was time we looked to those whom in-
tended to be his instruments. The fact was that the regular
orders of the Church of Rome, especially the Jesuits, were
the very teeth of this aggression. They ve, re the head and
front—the riacipal instigators, and the House might rely
upon it, that they had not been without their share in
all the late disturbances in Europe.—(Hear, hear.) Their
princples were those of a polity within themselves, which set
aside the right of any nation to them as subjects. To them
all institutions were alike in their application to the people,
the only difference being which could best serve their pur-
pose.
If they save a monarchy which they could not con-
trol,
that order laboured like sLives That they might
was just the same with a republic. History
they would not stop at any crime, from
parricide
showedvaenritcuirdne
that
murder, to serve their purpose. There
a great increase of this order, and for that reason
esaid the Protestant subjects of her Majesty had a
to t. a
tI t
expect that some account should be taken of these
wasrih tagaing then,
tb o
agents of eggreesion.—(l.lear.) With reference to this
order of Jesuits, the Noble Lord at the head of Foreign
Affairs, in a dispatch dated November 16, 1847, which had
been laid upon the table of the House, had said, " The
Society of Jesuits must be looked at both in a religious
and in a political point of view. In its religious cha-
racter it is a society avowedly established to make war
upon the Protestant religion. What wonder, then, that in
a small country like Switzerland, where two-thirds of the
people are Protestants, the introduction of such a society
should give rise to dissensions between Catholic and Pro-
testant, and should be viewed with aversion by the majority
of the nation? In its ecclesiastical character the Society of
Jesuits is known to be exclusive and encroaching. Can it
be surprising, then that in Switzerland, as in other countries,
a great portion even of the Catholic population should look
upon the Jesuits with jealousy and dislike?" Those were
the sentiments of the Noble Lord at the head of Foreign
Affairs in reference to the Jesuits in Switzerland, and be
(Mr. Newdegate) asked whether they were not equally ap-
plicable to this country?— (Hear, hear.) He wished to ask
whether the Noble Lord intended to permit the residence
and accredited action in this country of a person intrusted,
eti Cardinal Wiseman was, with full legatine powers? The
powers of a legate were to manage all the affairs—civil, eco-
nomical, and political—of the nation committed to his
charge. I, was true no legate could 'manage or control the
affairs of this country, but that he might a.al would interfere
with them there could be no doubt.—(Hear hear.) He
spoke the voice of the Protestants of England, and he spoke
from communications made to nim by peaceful and orderly
men, when he told the Noble Lord that they were content
to b protected from these aggressions by law, but that if
they were not protected by law, they would take the matter
into their own hands.—(Hear, and a cry of " Oh.")

Mr. KNOX (Dungannon) wished to express his indigna-
tionand that of the people of Ulster at the conduct of the

... ----_
Government with regard to this Bil'. The letter of the
Noble Lord ( Lord J. Russell) had been regarded' by'everet.
Protestant in the kingelt m as an indicetion that he intended
to do his duty to the country in protecting -ts religion'
When, however, the Noble Lord brcught forward a measure'
it turned out to be a milk- .nd-water affair, and did not by
any means bear out the declarations contained in his eele-
brated letter. What followed ? Some Hon. /slernber.a
threatened the Noble L rd with a civil war in Ireland; and'
tl
in co ,sequence of that absurd threat, the Bill was reduced
.0
a wretched remnant, and would have no effect whatever
.r,
preventing the assumption of power by the Roman Ponti
He (Mr. Knox) wished to take that oppertunity of cors_tell.
dieting an assertion made the other evening hy the ke
Member for Dublin (Mr. Reynolds), that Ulster was Per_
fectly indifferent as to the measures that might bee kenteell
this subject. He could only say that the Protestan
~e_l
Ulster were as angry at the Papal aggression as they n 7
were at the conduct of the Noble Lord, who, with the support
of a min city of that H use—(A laugh)—held the rei? F_'.
goverment. He hoped that Ireland would be include,a,n!
any measure tha might be carried through the Hoes
breach
he considered that the omission of Ireland would be a
of the Acts of Union.
ed to
been delivered by supporters of the Bill were better su!tie
at.,
Dr. PO WEI{ thought that seme of the speeches which hart
the atmosphere of Exeter-ball than to a calm and a
hePther
sionate deliberative assembly. The question was w , in
the Pope by the creation of a Roman Catholic hierarc?„,
this country, had invaded the supremacy of the Crown' Luet.
rights of the Established Church, and the independs.eideen;.
the nation ; and. unless that could be shown, by the himself
of clear and indisputable facts, he for one would feet
_es
justifi d in denouncing the present Bill as a persecutivg•lnany'd
sure—(Hear - and one that ran counter to the gretenta
glorious principles of religions toleration. If the a gm"'
of the Hon Member for Warwickshire were arrktreeellete.
against the Papal aggression they were still strongataan
religion in this country. The Pope
runts against the very existence of the Ronlearilaith en.
s country.
deavouring to assume territorial jurisdiction in thi
to notice
The Noble Lord had taken care in his speech not..,
and s
the broad distinction that existed between a e 11
eloVr Oxford,
spiritual jurisdiction; but the Hon. Member
dexteronsii
seeing the course the argument was taking,n
betveeete a
was cbarg
changed the ground, and drew a distinctio
such a dis.
spiritual and an ecc:esiastical jurisdiction. That
not governed
tinction might be made in the case of a Church
be drawn in the case of a Church the leadingel; ieno l's he..
by a hierarchy he admitted ; but that the distincrti
whose discipline was that it should be goveljatrilnicire knew
erarehy, he utterly denied. Every
11°Inr, diction, Power'
and believed that the Pope had no
civil
-ur.sotwithstanding
or auth rity within this realm, and Yet' ncatholie Mein'
the oath or declaration taken by all Roman told that they
bets of Parliament to that effect, they were
searte that the
held a divided allegiance. He wag no.
taut Church bad
supremacy of the Crown over the Prot
tethough it had
ever been questioned by Roman Catholics,
many of the
been denied by some of the bishops 8"1 ....
A hierarchy was .ssential to the ,ear, beer.)
_e ad
.scio:ledf
clergy and laity of the Established Church.
~ t
_sat of had
hierarchl
Catholic t. hurch • the appointment of that .
of such sly
not been exercised by the Crown ; and the rigat
' Catholic
the
pointment rested in the recognised head °`
Church yielded a
Church, to whom the membe s of that
1 Chußill, they pee,
reale- obedience. If, then, by passing this
their ecclesialee
vented the Roman Catholics from perfecting - tolerati°l3'
tical organisation, what became of their boasted
_wired?
and of the freedom of conscience they so loudly Prn'as sg.
Even supposing the act of the Pope to have lr_e,.ahe would
have endeavoured to support that star
proper Church
ewe
gression, could it for a moment be supposed forcetrna' The
t twowhole
Hon. Member for the West Riding had stated tha
d other
naval force of the Pope consisted of a ganbrig loss was at
vessels of war; they knew, too, that his e'
11 d to OPP°.
this moment supported by foreign bayonets; an e out bia
therefore, that he would have attempted to carry mein-
measures by force was a perfect absurdity. The' 'Nue late oc-
ber for Bath ( Lord Ashley) had intimated that, 01,atn, and
casion, three great Catholic powers, France, FP„ would
ession by
Austria, gave their aid to the Pope, but that trifles that
assist him in any designs un this c: unity the Noble
could only present itself to the romantic mind
the Catholic
Lord. If the measure of the Pope hid rendered
they were
clergy of this country more independent the d interfered
before of the Queen and the Government, if it ha, England,
with the allegiance they owed to the Sovereign.o.l....;ghts
or had dimini-hed the revenues, or interfered wItl!! ti': Inlght
of the Established Church ; then, he admitted, Ore:0010d
have been some cause for alarm ; but none of t
rrtgeolic Church
been produced. The bishops and clergy of the -e longh ONO
in Ireland had at an early period maintained relating
with the Pontiff with regard to the eanrd bin right
to the observance of Easter, and had openly den it was that
to levy money in that country ; and he believed ni,natiff, an
resistance which formed the pretext to a Ronan the tender
Englishman by birth, for handing Ireland overt o.
at in the
mercies of Henry 11. He might observe, also, that
..t. New.
earlier days of the United States, when the Pur_iran_esvtrers of
England persecuted the Episcopa'ians, and the Terto the
was tile,rear.)
Pennsylvania persecuted the Presbyterians, they _ erg to
Roman Catholic colony of hlarYland, which
proclaim the great principle of religious toleration.,_ektj'nited
How was it that there was such spicily 110 W
States upon the subject, which created so much d excitement'
here? They had their archbishops and bishops, an
vet ire
tinual additions were made to the number; au 'e ,re not
heard of no excitement there. But then they Wetuaill
shackled with an esteblished church, which was perperg the
trembling for its existence, aad at every reform mist,' te
er-e-
-cry of " The Church in danger !" If it was inch§i, the
its garment was rent, it was torn not so
Pala ' In
Roman Catholics as by those within its own
thin
truth, but for " Puseyism," we should not have hot the
" romedy of Errors" enacted in Downing-street, nso
comedy of " Much Ado about Nothing" liPece bad
in
tuen
many platforms —( A laugh.) Some gentlemen w"°, Ca-
taken part in this debate; seemed not to be aware
whichthrl'
tholic doctrine was immutable, but that the diecipline nt
would be required in a country like this would Hear,differer.)
from that required in such a country asCbina.—( heeethe
It was surprising that the Noble tord at the head a, wn
Government, who had read history so well, had not firsesa
from it this conclusion, that penal laws were not them t-d
by which an obnoxious religion could be checked. Ite7e-le
been tried in Ireland for three centuries and failed. ere
A. e,
Bill would not effect in this country the object intet's.--
it did,
regardedi,i,a dist
notion Scotland,
i t
betweenwas
the
palpable
Protestant injustice,
Episcopal
cb
drawing'areTt
t
the
and the Roman Catholic Church, both of which stood in o
same relation to the dominant Church there. The coloniee;
it was said, were not included in the Bill, because the Qneedis
ecclesiastical supremacy did not extend to the colonies; .ea _
it extend to Scotland?—(Hear.) But in every the
the the Bill involved difficulties. In Ireland it was recalling ot
Catholic Association into existence. If the House diet
il.ias
wish to make Ireland the " difficulty" of every Adminientooo
tion, and to keep there a standing array of at least 4'''tbe
men, they should reject a Bill so fraught with danger to
Tisihre. SPEAKERiENr D
Icalledtu
,i im uopNo no ,
who .
peace and tranquillity and best interests of the country doyen
The moment the Hon. Dlernber sat down, at least 3 ut)
gentlemen rose to address the House
he could not consent to confine the scope of Oisel'sooo
to all _ the narrow limits to which the Honourable.yenDraor
who had just sat down I. ould restrict it. His (or' bad t°
ond's) opinion was, that the question the House „omen
discuss was nothing short of this, whether the, r the
Catholics should remain a tolerated sect "'sr the
spiritual dominion of the Queen, or
dominion of the Pope.—(Loud cries, of whetheirittod
proceeded toatreYnatsl3l.ol
.. Heer•va 00e.
Queen should be a licensed heritic under the Yon")
Parliament had to settle whether they would bender thee.
third of the population of this kingdone, %overate.
pretext of " religious developments," to beds' (Heir'
by a law unknown to the two remaining thir d'auperior
hear)—a law which was considered paramount
the
to the law, common or statute, that governed toe debate, or
(Hear, hear.) Nor would this night, or this for the
this Bill, or a hundred such, settle the questionn_id not to
)
Pope had raised a storm in this country that W:O4 bear
quiet again n the lifetime of any present.---0% *oll, be
( Mr. Drummond) should like to say
Now, before coming to the main bc.oly of the
, P:°,,F et
o tl3 e des.sl'"
miebers o ho had been put in the trent
pecially those phi!o.ophers ' who affected to !bat signifies
altitude superior to us all and to say, oWhoebea e tbt:
whether the dog beats the hog or the ee. a est ee-
clogl (Laughter. womfetlit"tattlet: sa
) What signifies whether F I beset
, (Hear, .es
Protestant, or Protestant eats Papist tame
leave thins",
and laughter). Stand aloof from it all. ean'Tt Was aPI
to take their own course."—(Hear, hear./ It tW° of
that these " philosophers" did not think e 3
from that House specially giving cf. cMe °lin
three years ago; they condescended then en
;,.}, a Bill seD lit
from teeir eeieht, and they did meddle Vi'''' - by theY Jib
serted a clause which justly offended the rnPe' ego" hers
they would not have the i'o e send an 0 after" ~.ad vent -
Why, the oe, instead of sePoding an a' alter 19°- 'as gel
piece of himself—
gentleman for showing us the value of "
(" Hear hear," and a lengh)e7-fo so Iris.,
corp3ris.—{ Hear, bear.) 'But we were indebten,lere in 11?..
as a reason Wtbat forsoote.
sublunary matters; and whoever had read th_ re the s.
philosooPuynyage to
Laputa might know that of all men the "s't.e.i Ile iiilled
fit to guide us on such an occasion.—(Heart 3- they re' lie
Drummond) wished to warn the HOUSO 10%0 bath Old
implicitly upon anything asserted by a Itnt,',) Re did
implicitly
- (Laughter, and a cry of " °h•l more ore capable
not say that the Hon. Member would be
3 bittty.tbing bleoar.)
of wilfully deceiving the House, or eeY'vg -13-
(gear' eell
not believe to be true, than any other Merribieff:noes I)6W bhp
But still when a question arose as to the &lora 000ourrasas
the Court of Rome and the See of Rome, °fie Seentemi for
Member asserted one thing, another forHonouralee g..._
you publin
videece
other. He bad applied to the Hon. Mernbe_rinbor for
information, when up started the Hon. *:, to the
with his particular explanation. On referrZoo the.tcourt of
given by Dr. MtHale on that subject, 11:ele• of the Roman Ca-
to say, that " the doctrines and prinn'P of the rt of
Rome were not the doctrines or principlea
en the Clone
tholic Church, which distinguished het,°3ee Court °I •thout
Rome and the Church of Rome. For the Cl Wlcarh.
might be the scone of much intrigue and es Rofnen to
f the 0 Bch
lie at the same time, the decrees Diaries
wisema„ ob
lie Church." How, after that, could the (Ilea
what he had? It was alleged that for cen
‘, begged to d t
of Rome had undergone no change; but ....changed ail.
uwitnese
from those who asserted that, for it had of giving. et
every century, and always for the Pepose. _sed, 11.,
creased power to the priests. The philosophe.reir. itnbis sue?
...,
say, " We ought to have nothing to do w:lnh'un Ministe.ceut:
They might be answered in the way in win measures u-, the
Bonaparte addressed the senate when sonee e sato b.
ing religion were being brought forward, Heerthe Fre.iiheeer
Catholic religion was that of the majority rsneine, le o
nation • and if they abandoned so powerful
would 'be at the mercy of the first impious knavualott ',your;
wish to convulse France. Now that wastake rue"uhat '
inevitably take place in Ireland if they did nerd. indeed, t
to prevent such a state of things. It was anew what oral,
the Pope had no army. He should like to kn'i_s(etear, gal
the Pope had ever had for the last I,SOO Yearit3 no yet he btu,
laughter.) Where was his great army'? for centuries 4
contrived to do as nao.h mischief in EllrOPe,angleter ) ,ed
any other gentleman ever d(Hear, and t
had ever eirecelas
still, however, had all the arms by which he anged ; ;,:se
the mischief, and all his oesigns still uncnho
Sorer eLe,'„a"
England had thrown away her arms, and leekd
made? It " •
sietanee. It is asked, Where is the attac et, don
lilt: 1,6110 ifou!d_.
said that it was only a spiritual and conscientious se, ~,,e,
however, that the Pope sent a cardinal latn:"of th,_,o
for the benefit of an hierarchical system. How came allfagaLluol
time, fortunately for us, since we had 'igloo the
sort of gentry amongst us.—(Laughter.)el;
° to
letter trone e
it would be only necessary to refer to a brief r ,_,ic
,e.
light in which that class of persons was hby the Piper
of the Popes to a King of France, 8 natural
one!
who resided in that country, and was a reputed
ed to e-.
of one of the Bourbons, but whom it was propos
__to the
the case of a dissolute cardinal of the name m sore
e way a cardinal, who
th the
effect that he cnuld not send a t vet
• to the lase and that it was not consisten Bored
the kingdom. The Pope wrote to the King of Flan'ar`a• sae
periormaintaining et 6 teed
zeal which he ought to have for the _ woe
persons and things. Such was the law which neY
t-third of the
to establish here. Such was the law which one.
,tests
„et, fot
peep e asked to maintain, and that more for prieese ti: had
laymen.—(No-) The question with the Court alio-
hecatl36
been always that of priest and layman. Once they _of
members of the Church, they were no longer subjecern or
other power - they were independent of the King%nbetst.
dangered his eternal salvation if he Wedged Yfnia

!t. of the
intended
measure,
a not by
his cele-
gernbere
nd.; and.
:duced to
lover in
Pontiff:,
r contra-
he H°l3.
was Per.
taken "I
?.stauts 04'
they nor
e suPPrt‘
D reins 0'
eluded in
louss, to!,
a bresc'