The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-22 00:00:00

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therefore it was one which would require a very full and ample
discussion ; but the Hon. and Gallant Officer forgot the rea-
sons why it could not be expected that it should be then dis-
cussed. In the first place the House was taken by surprise by
the amendment ; and in the second, so far from its not having
been under the consideration of his Majesty's Government, it
had met with every attention ; they had instituted an inquiry,
and when the result of that inquiry should be laid Lefore the
House, they would be better able to discuss the matter. This
was a question in which many persons who were frankly
avowed to be most friendly to Ireland were divided in opinion.
This was not a question as to details merely, but it was his
wish to see what was the real state of the population in Ireland.
It was necessary to ascertain this before they decided as to
whether the introduction of Poor Laws would be beneficial to
the population of Ireland, or would have a contrary effect.
Thus it was a question upon which it was hardly possible to
come to a fair decision, and the Hon. Gentleman ought not
to be surprised if they did not go at length into the subject.
There could be no doubt that the population of Ireland were
in great distress ; and it was a matter well worthy of the at-
tention of the Government and the Legislature to seek to re-
lieve that pressure. But when the Hon. Member for Bir-
mingham said that every man should have support, he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) hardly knew any other argu-
ment which could be urged, unless that every man should be
supplied with paper.—( A laugh.) It would be desirable,
certainly, that honest labour should procure subsistence, but
he apprehended that this could hardly be the case generally
in any country in existence.
After a few words from Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL,
Mr. PO LTL ET T SCR OPE expressed his readiness to
withdraw his amendment, with the understanding that he would
bring it forward on the third reading of the Bill.
Mr. HLTME suggested that if such was the determination
of the Hon. Member, the time of the House would be saved
by at once dividing.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when the num-
bers were—

Against the Amendment B9
For it 34
_ _ .

Majority against the amendment 55
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

On our return to the gallery, we found Mr. O'CONNELL
addressing the House, but from the noise of the rush of
strangers into the gallery, we were not able to hear the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman.
Lord AL THORP was understood to suggest that the
House should proceed to the second reading of the Disturb-
ances (Ireland) Bill, and defer the matter referred to by the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin until the report of the
Committee should be printed.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he believed that as this was a
question of a breach of privilege, he was entitled to require
that it should take precedence of any other business.
Mr. ELLICE said it will perhaps save the time of the
House, if the House will at once do me the honour to listen to
the short and plain statement which I have to make ; and the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin may then, if he think
proper, bring forward his motion for printing the report at some
future period of the evening.—( Hear.) Sir, I have for the
first time since I came into this House (though I was certainly
before not unacquainted that something had passed on the subject
in the Committee up stairs), heard the report which the Hon.
and Learned Member has brought down. In that report it is
stated, that a Noble Friend of mine applied to me when I was
Secretary to the Treasury, for an advance of money for the
purpose of defraying some of the expenses of an election then
going on for the borough of Colchester. I have no hesitation
in stating to the House, that the fact as stated by that Noble
Lord is misrepresented, unintentionally, I am sure, and utterly
untrue. I well recollect the event alluded to, which occurred
in the course of a year that will be long remembered by every
one who hears me, when we were all engaged-_at least all of
us who are Reformers—in an anxious and interesting struggle
to carry the great question on which the previous Parliament
had been dissolved. During that year, great preparations were
made both by the opponents and the friends of reform. One
party of the opponents of that measure established a club, which
held its meetings in Charles-street—a club, to the fame
of which I need not more particularly allude.--( Hear, hear.)
By the members of that club, large sums of money were
raised and subscribed, and freely applied in defraying the
expences of the contests which were carried on in different
parts of the country. The friends of reform had only one
way of meeting this ; vii—by also raising subscriptions amongst
themselves to prevent the friends of reform being defeated or
oppressed in their various contests.--( Hear, hear.) As is
well known, much, very much of this labour was thrown on
me, and I was very anxiously engaged in the arrangement of
the elections--not so much from my official situation, but as
one of the most anxious and eager advocates of the great prin-
ciple we were contending for. In this capacity I was the me-
dium of applying considerable sums which were advanced on
the side of reform ; the parties who had subscribed them,
following in most instances my advice as to their appropri-
ation. I have not, indeed, the least hesitation in avow-
ing to the House, that beyond the sum applied for
Colchester, various other sums of money were applied to
other parts of the country, by my advice, out of funds
raised by subscription, and which funds were under the
management of one or two committees sitting at the time.
The misrepresentation of my Noble Friend, which, I repeat,
was, I am sure, quite unintentional, arises thus :—The appli-
cation made to me was not an application for promoting the
interest of any individual. If I recollect rightly, it was stated
to me that the other (Tory) party were prepared to send down
all the out-voters. We were then still exposed to that exe-
crable system-4 Hear)--and that whilst one party had the
means of sending down the out-voters, the other had not. The
answer I made was, " Let me see some independent friend of
both parties. I don't know the individual merits of the re-
forming candidates on this occasion. I don't inquire into the
individual merits of any candidate. All that Ido inquire is,
will they vote for reform ? If they will, I will apply to the
Committee for conducting the general expenses, for a grant
of money, for the purpose of sending down voters to Col-
chester"—expenses, be it remembered, that were perfectly
legal.--( Hear.) And I certainly did apply to the Committee
for managing the funds at the time, and they did accord-
ingly advance 500/. This was what I stated to be my re-
collection of the subject, when I was spoken to by my
Right Hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire.
Perhaps there was some indiscretion in commenting upon
the matter up stairs; but it is a subject of perfect indifference
to me, whether it be discussed up stairs or in the House. My
answer is, that I was the agent, at the time, of apportioning
some part of those means raised as I have described. I have
only to state it to the House candidly, and throw myself
on its fair consideration.—( Cheers.) This was, as I have
said, my own recollection of the transaction, without any do-
cuments to refer to. But since I have come into the House, I
have, by the courtesy of the Hon. Member for Colchester,
been furnished with my own notes on that occasion. If the
House will indulge me, I will read them. They are only two
in number, and short. It will be seen by these notes, that the
advance was made for neither of the candidates exclusively.
The object was to enable the Reformers of Colchester to re-
turn two Members pledged to support the Bill, the whole Bill,
and nothing but the Bill.--(A laugh from the Tories, which
was instantly drowned in loud cheers.) I use the words that
were then the test put by all Reformers to the candidates. I
will now read the notes put into my hand by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Colchester, for whose courtesy I again
repeat my obligations. The first is dated Wednesday, as ap-
pears by the date of the frank on the 4th May, 1831. It runs
thus :

" Wednesday, May 4, 1831.
" DEAR SIR—I hope everything will go right. I have done all
in my power to contribute to it.
" Five hundred pounds were sent from one subscription fund to
Mr. Savill, and 2001. I hear has been contributed by the other."
That was a Committee sitting at the Crown and Anchor,
of which the Hon. Member for Middlesex knows something.
" I am obliged to return to the country to-night, and shall not
be again in town till Saturday ; but if you are in difficulty in the
meantime, you must press upon the Committee at the Crown and
Anchor, who feel every disposition to exert themselves on behalf
of Colchester.

" Yours, faithfully,
" D. W. Harvey, Esq. " EDWARD ELLICE.
Private."

The next note is as follows :
" Private. " Sunday.
" Dear Sir,—l had written, before opening your letter, accord-
ing to the wishes of Mr. Western, to Mr. Savill, on the subject of
affairs at Colchester, and given him authority to do all which I
held out to you the prospect of being able to do on behalf of the
liberal cause.
" I hope what has been done will be sufficient ; at all events, it
is all I have at present in my power ; but if you send me up a ge-
neral account of your proceedings to-morrow, I will urge the Com-
mittee to make further exertions in your behalf. That, however,
must depend upon their means and inclination, neither of which are
under my control. " Yours, faithfully,
" D. W. Harvey, Esq." EDWARD ELLICE.
I solemnly assure the House, Sir, that not one shilling
of this money came from the Treasury.—( Hear, hear.) In-
deed, it was much more likely to come from my own pocket.
This is all the explanation I have to give. Not one far-
thing was taken from the Treasury ; nor am I aware that
in doing as I did, I did anything which any independent
Member of either party would be ashamed to have done.
—( The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud and
general cheers.)
Mr. HUME said, that as allusion had been made to him, he
was bound to state that he was quite aware a Committee was
formed at the time at the Crown and Anchor, of which an.
Hon. Gentleman then in the House acted as Honorary Secre-
tary. He (Mr. Hume) was not a member of that Committee,
but he was perfectly well aware that the Committee did make
advances for the same good cause. With regard to the sum of
500/., he had only wished to know whether that amount came
from the public money ; and he was satisfied with the explana-
tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. HARVEY wished it to be understood that while he
concurred in what had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man with reference to the letters which had been sent to him
(Mr. Harvey), he also felt that they were dictated by the spi-
rit which he had suggested ; though for his own part he had
never derived one farthing of benefit from the funds. As to
the sum of 5001., the matter could not have come before the
House but for an inquiry which was unavoidably the subject of
a Committee which had sat several weeks. Lord Western
had stated before the Committee that this money was applied
for
applied exclusively Mayhew, and it was denied that it was
ever man. He would not say anything
for forfo r M
anyr. other
as to the motive which had produced this feeling. For himself
he was pleased to find that his representations had been com-
pletely confirmed.
Mr. WYNN said a few words which were inaudible in the
Gallery.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY shortly explained.
Mr. BULLER said that he had been one of the applicants
to the Committee for assistance, but he obtained none.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) He had been informed that numerous