The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-13 00:00:00

11017

1,4
nay, these 010,
o may not ver..o/,
that it was o'4
the circtunstsv„
itieow
they caw wit
of seeing ullt.
to the 11,4,117,
:his I, (11 c°ll
qte t '
rnxious to ei
action brnug'
stion of Irelan
afters'
I see that beli
increasing t
irch. BY °l9l
hi discs'
f ts
wee of deft
the w orking ne'l
. p, with °g
er b
193ty'-oti ditninr
I 01
IttinwiselP on
cement, mirinerf
chial clergy iote
greatly Pr'n of
aal 10
• tere," I
r
the Burn"' re;
ted ICiagd°,"!,,'e / ei
that totuj" g`
„th
7eeding, '°'
the
that COunty;
rofits would .ot,
in, d to the gr!,„,
tt
a worse con
vv,
s matter Ire° fa
of our 0?e
e irioneY ebe%r for
wpulation cp,t
°
best a t
ty, we learn
oo
old fashioned
if the scieurei 6,
that, .
one a 9
„tris,
e in its "oh- a s
ifes,orf t
of this 5°9,-,,e or
h that the I.4in
a London so ;
0,
gland but ".
id by no mean
dispositiono
mo'm'ent c
ll'et to,
r are, 313°00.,
s this ques,'i 11
that he weatn
lay ? Eve .aeon
tot the re'
part of the roe
. Alembelnqd
)mpktely r itice
of the Pro
.' nuts
at surelY "tereo
sincer IY
desire to t
frie-
aof every prose
, that the to
ireumstan"oferp
n he is 001ri 001
I n".
; and
toi
efficiency' po"
in a Ini.raoto
ye at this rn o 0
• the att,liti-, Cl.
ish Protert3°,, or
amongst th
el that they ff'era
.hey have '„uae
and I Per'''
hs
ire
rho would
so tr
Hon bad ,
hem temp tr
tll,
re
y of thew and 03
sir duties, 3doev
their legal
tbat
_ el'
uhieet'ng turf,
remain) ,
House, an; rd
to Noble rid es
relacy sh°ll(
.1,00
he House ° at•
triehav't
remain u of
ietween
templa`,,il
A CO n
times, if be
Act Act of V t 0",,„
OP
va
ies the o'h lea(
Lion four, he
art'
As to the tbitis
▪ 1 do no raper
t all in a bat ,
o I think dto
Bishop', lat"ot e
in the paYA-,,e,
r, as I ute;f•
six years did
g ti
but tsc°°r ider
lthorp o'l ire ird
t
ding to ,
s the
a to know,
rat to secular
Klan his ree
nor
st perfect ari the
' grief, and o t
.
tw
maturely' • Die‘
which I°
ny opposi" Goo,
say is, that, 00°
aefits
it be a' d'i3°ool.,
d may it ce
ite Cath`whe- no
acre may -ther I
nd that 30° t rr.
it to differ Y'
would sure't,'
it as 00e Ira

trilleigair
l:.t_lion. Baronet put on it No, I cannot think the
Deere i" bad because the Right Hon. Member for
ouelj,'n and his political friends support it. To think that
I a, nand
to be the consequence of their support is what
nice
not make up my mind to. It is too uncharitable to
tri'ot'ilves3evere snd uncompromising with respect to men's
Nu is' I admit the truth of the Right Hon. Baronet's
which When he states that this question is one upon.
„io'Ll the Rouse cannot suddenly and easily from an opt-
Nei,"; thtlugh it has been so clearly announced by the
thouelllover of it. Yet, as the Right Hon. Baronet has
letigugetist,fit cffer some comments on my Noble Col-
tem I feel it a sort of duty to advert to one or
that thP es, noon which we are at variance. The first is,
e r Bight Hon. Baronet contends that the only pro-
tlis ivaY to introduce the Bill, is through a Committee of
PreetV'°lo Rowse. He is, no doubt, arguing upon
it. tk"sne; 'et us see how he will he borne out by
mentor "Ys if I In not commit a very great error of
11011,Y' and if I am not misinformed, the
.Right
dared urable Baronet himself has more than once intro-
te,,u Bills nearly similar to the present, without having
Norte to a Committee of the whole House for their in -
deeti".ko. If I err not, the Right arm Beronet. intro-
Cur toin 1826, the Vestry Bill, and the Pluralities and
olien4hiai alls, without thinking it necessary that they.
tttif, oe introduced by going through a Committee of
tota iii;se• I do not think the precedent of the Test an
tlistes4',P,ati°o Acts cases in point, and for this. reason,
lik„ —`oeY related to men's consciences, and involved re-
-o,oLo'hit Persuisions and principles, it was very proper they
th,
Iv
td h to on their introduction through a Committee of
Ihat h House. The Right Hon. Baronet has said
„
not object to some species of appropriation., of
ePr'Perty of the Church ; he even goes further ee.ieia
14,14eedes the point, that a different distribution of it is
Jape neces.arv.With respect to the Vestry Cess in Ire-
le 4)4.i" Right Hon. Baronet thinks that its collection may
to ited• No doubt, and the great majority. of persons
tine shed are convinced that an alteration is required,
blister' levying of the Cess, as it now stands, is a galling
• heti r• It should not be a burden, and the tenant a.bso-
os reqUires to be relieved of it by some other substitute
liarsno• My pinions on this head have not been
adopted ; to prove that they have not, I beg to be
of the to read to the House a few lines from the report.
tit ehe"rornittee of Tithes last year, of which Commit-ctts f
."ad the honour of forming a part :—" The levy o
p, but
re!, of slight amount, yet it is found peculiarly op-
klee,o-te to both Catholics and Protestants, and all its
°diu4itages are more than counterbalanced by the
tvith which it is attended." That part of
ofl;:diile Friend's measure, which relates to the a
levyingsl
th:555, proceeds upon a legitimate principle,
kt able to prove at a future opportunity. The Right
Ili:111;,41e Baronet wishes that the residence of the clergy
Pct lie provided for, so that they may live in every re-
gentlemen. I adhere to the Right Honourable
Cets opinion upon this point, and assure him that
trl,'l of
of the chief objects of the proposed measure. I
Bethn'w to the consideration of the property of the
5,f and whether I am right or not as to the nu.m, ber
414, nPries that it is proposed to abolish or consolu.ate,
pr use that the principle adopted is the very best. As a
11t' that such is the case, many of the highest Church
titt's4itaries consent to the adoption of this principle. In..
milts all occasions, I have found that the onlylififfih
lOSCPlaced in the way of a better appropriation of Caere
bY the Bishops, proceeded horn a desire not to
stlestoise the interests of their successors. They have
btreiribly said, " Tax us, if you will, if it be advan-
-414' to the country that we should bear the burden,
not those whose property we hold in trust suffer.
I think, when I shall be caller, upon, that I shall
he,', to show that the number of bishoprice that are to
tooedured at the decease of the present holders of Sees is not
ste
elits and that the dioceses to which they shall become
s.alts'%''' will not be too large, nor the number of clergy-
so. to great for their respective Bishops to attend
t'th 'ith respect to Bishops' leases, I shall again state
t art House, the principle upon which the proposed mee-
t
tiNtillts• In the first place, that principle applies itself
'4O the B. h d inferrer clergy, and a just and
e” 'tole o' san
• d d to all. The change
t 'o4rh Mutation is to be exten e
rr Prek'Plateed in the appropriation of the higher Church
• Ne,,,tY is to be carried into the lower The tenure of
Ptiosr,' leales will be regulated by the measure, on a
e' • los,ll'le that will promote the security of their interests,
6 ''o4, 4' those of their tenants. It will preventl them
ft '44,:tings as hitherto, fearful of renewing theoi:otesawseisil
04 'l4O the other hand, the expenditure of
ttoe
ttlt:i checked, since they will not have fear the
4 Chart of the ishops. When it is considered that the
has an interest in not above 100,000/. a year, in
et numbers, and that the permanent interest of tenants
fits (~* to five times that sum, it is too bad to think that
kths".4l.cla alone will be the sufferer. If the measure
tios
leial to the former, it will be so on a larger sea e
t,
o_otter.
tp Perpetuating the tenures, you gCo ive a new value
deal propPerty, and the Stare will have a right
it thinks i the increased value,
~Wever, a flingpropri it to secular purposes.
th,,:li6s'd the greatP merits of the present. measure is,
,iitet °es not involve the abstract question, and drag
-° Pledge themselves to , hat they are opposed to. It
IshebsZ thaPnily involve an abstract right, but it involved
ve.t„it',,,:tl:_of the tenant upon land belonging to the Church.
111 " the security of the Protestant Church, es it
of the property of that Church
.to be applied to
tactic the
purposes. The measure having steeed clear.
411,141 the o„4,,"ract question, it enables Government to unite
s•uVan
cages of liberal concession to every party, and
1,44111,41 that the effects of the measure will be—
;tit, "ave every reason to think that they will be—to
'ittt t;l'e Protestants and Catholics of Ireland, thereby
l'itiiitZng the prosperity of that country, and establishing
4441acient foisting the stibility of the whole empire.
-,111,°11' to
eeer, Claim again, and in a more earnest way,
of the House, since I am about to offer a
tart Bence of
which relate to myself personally. I
over and over again accused of being an enemy
God k e and those who are best acquaint.d
designs knnoo‘evv-,, whether I deserve to be liable to
tap accusation.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.)
~I),ieet,:itith the greatest truth say, that one of the great
Zeis,„,..oofrtn.Yr political life is the
It}happinese—he real hap-
ltiette,te eland. Years ago, long before und myself
sad in the vortex of politics, the prosperity of Ire-
"oa dear
th,, to tee. Being connected in some measure
.4' " country, I then saw that the evils of absenteeism
‘t4tov',o greatest scourge. I not only felt it, but
,Zls4y 'red to make others feel it, by setting them a prac-
ITPles and fixing my residence on my property in
411;'',tring the summer, previous to my acceptance of
5 berroatn`the people of that country to which I am
tfos„
.enecay, I have received
.every imaginable
of kindness, and I should consider myself as the
oigfrateful Of mankind if I ever permitted the
os, that kindness to be eradicated from my memory.
Intl, ton
office, I would ask whether I did so because
Itilh'telt 'r,-(fferent towards Ireland, or whether it was not
et it eei",!.°laah!e that I was prompted by a desire to serve
Ptis 'intry ? ,
4, That the latter was the cause of my ac-
ls,4' age :"ee I am myself sure, for I considered it as a
do. when I thought that my services might be
be',,P,oteri"-' to Ireland. I may have disappointed many, and
4171ie -tn'Yself to. the of others, but I now take this
,tite.sl)Portunity of solemnly declaring that I do not
pn,ot 4,1:0-1the shadow of one unkind feeling towards any
04 per 4'l in the discharge of his public duty, thought
yet ~tde er°ss me in my path.—(Cheers.) Both by
the other have I been repeatedly assailed,
4„N‘i„„.! a pride in being able to maintain that I have
to myself to either party. I considered I
.had a
ot;tveCt`f°rtis, and I undertook the discharge of it. Il
Ito 'N, ;led to effect what I meant to do myself, and what
Wilats th doubt, expected from me, I can assure
..the
lsti hot 4'l that failure, however painful and discouraging,fai.
oi,l4)‘,lni'h my ardent' z al to promote the welfare of
1°141,1 5,,"'s notwithstanding the extent of such a
tieljt:ithei.°4iise to devote my best energies and exertions
ctaotZld of Ireland. Feeling that this measure will
Poi-C-1,-"°115 to that country—( Hear, from Mr.O'Cone
tcoiss 1',41„ determined to give it my melt, cordial sup-
'hit 'aces "Pliort it, merever for I feel convinced of the
te,'fo,64°ef the principles upon which it rests ; and I say
454 i, of Env veracity being retied upon,eince no. one
ti°„thslih'i_h I dti,t`he measure I ever supported. the principles
th oot fully a rove. It remains now for me
jail'titi:4lftitst7°,tueseomost gPratefully for the. tair opportunity
my feelings, and for al-
-044Z tentot4':e,"Pose, in expressingdiscussing. measure... irnpor-
-110)y4,,;,4,tinr4 to the public, things so insignificant and
". to that public as the waters that relate
Hun. Gentleman, on resuming
si„ tOt ;.AW “hy cheero.)
fq'oto Pid, that though he would refrain for the
-e ' Iseuesing the Noble Lord's measure in
bro. N 4 °old
Atli tt, riot avoid making an observation or two.
t ashy herit"r his sot protest against the doctrine
h." oent Z'erte-t Lord with to the improve-
t;74tAitt';ll'tted
iotf
vi?les Church If that doctrine
t it f the L • "Id be nothing more or less than
i:itseteat'erttr eeislature to take back with one hand
stirptiklos h ed with the other There was one more
Preesmee'llthet ';:tould ,„
ake—nainely, th it it created hie
aThend of fe of
s 0 ma
measure of the Noble Lord's should take
chftd,iet toh triaoY measures promised to the country,
sod
of lers of the country stood in more immediate need.
41' PareLe Hon. end Learned Member for Dublin,
'as explained the motives of Illinisters

o bringing forward this measure first. The real truth
was, that Ministers were making a vain attempt to appease
the violators of the law i❑ Ireland, by conceding. at the
.outset, one of their favourite demands. The measure
then under discussion was brought forward in wrong
order, for the above-mentioned motive ; and it would
hereafter be seen whether the violators of the law would
be repressed more effectually by concession, than by
enforcing the authority of theiaw.
Mr. KEANE said, that the plan proposed by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers was one which would leave a door open
for future improvement. After some further remarks,
which were inaudible in the gallery, the Hon. Member
s3id, th.it England was great in the arts, and in teats of
arms, but gray in State affairs.—(A laugh.)
An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn,
said, that the proposition made by the Government was
conceived in a conciliatory stiirit both towards Catholics
and Protestants, and he had no doubt that it would be re-
ceived in Ireland with the same feelings as dictated it.
Mr. HUTH VEN then said, that he did not mean to
.trouble the House by pressing his amendment to a di-
vision. He would not withdraw the amendment, but
he merely wished to have it recorded on the Journals of
the House.

The amendment was then put and negatived, and the
motion agreed to.
Mr. RIGBY WASON obtained leave to bring in a
Bill to remove the Suffolk Summer Assizes from Bury St.
Edmunds to Ipswich.
Mr. DIVETT moved for a return of the names of the
Members hearing office in each municipal corporation i❑
England and Wales, and the mode and date of their
elections to their first and every subsequent office. Also,
a copy of the charter, charters, or parts of the same, by
virtue of which municipal corporations now claim to hold
their respective offices.

Lord ALTHORP said, that he had no objection to the
first part of the motion of the' Hon. Member. With re-
gard to the second part, however, he considered it ob-
jectionable; in the first place, because it was exceedingly
expensive and troublesome ; and in the second place,
because he thought it contrary to usage and principle to
produce the Chatters of Corporations except in Courts of
Justice.

Mr. DIVETT would be glad to shape his motion in
any way that would be most convenient and most easily
to be obtained.

Mr. FINN moved for a return of the constabulary po-
lice of Ireland (luring each of the last three years ; con
taining the number and distribution thereof in each county,
together with the pay, amount of the expense of clothing,
barrack and commissariat allowances; and distinguishing
the amount paid by Grand Jury assessment from that paid
by the public ; account, in detail, of all expenses in-
curred on account of the Inspectors General of Police in
Ireland resiiient Magistrates under the Constabulary Ac!
during each of the three last years; distinguishing the
sources from which such payments have been made ;
also, a return of the number of Roman Catholics of each
rank in each county.

Sir JAMES SCARLETT was of opinion, that it would
be several years before the returns moved for by the Hon.
Member could be obtained; and that the advantage of
having them would not be commensurate with the expense.
Mr. DIVETT then consented to withdraw his motion.

Mr SHAW thought that the motion made by the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny would lead to a very invidious
inquiry; which, in the present excited state of the
country, should by all means be avoided.

Mr. O'CONNELL said that it had been distinctly de.
nied by his Majesty's Government, that there was a
pirty spirit in the choice of the constabulary police of
Ireland. It was desirable that the quest:sn should be set
at rest. The object to be gained by this motion was to set it
at rest. If it were not true that there was a party spirit.
then the question was ended ; but if true, or if partly
true, then it way right that it should be corrected. In
every case he thought it desirable that they should have
the returns.

Lord ALTHORP had no objection to the return being
made.—Agreed to.

Mr. HUME said, he had now a motion to make, which
he thought the House would not object to. It was for a
return of the number of electors enrolled in the registers
of each county, city, and borough in the United Kingdom
under the Reform Bill, and distinguishing freemen and
scot•and-lot voters ; and also, the number of voters which
polled at the different elections ; also, a copy of the ac-
count for legal expenses charged by every Returning-officer
to the candidates or their proposers for the hustings at the
late elections. His reason for moving for this return wa.,
because he found that there was a great difference between
the legal charges made by the Returning-officers in
rent places—being in some places very rea,on,hle, and in
other places very high. He thought it right that they
should know what the Returning-officer should properly
charge, and he knew of no other way of obtaining the in
formatio❑ but by obtaining the return for which he moved.
He next moved for a return of the number of barristers
employed at the late elections, their names, the num-
ber of days they were employed, and the sum paid to each
of them for their services. The Hon. Member then
moved for a copy of the accounts charged by the Returning-
officers to the candidate or candidates for the expense of
making booths and polling-places, and the number of
booths and polling-places in each place.
Colonel DAVIES said, that R. turning•ofyicers were in
the habit of charging candidates for returning the writ,
which was contrary to the Acts 7th and Bth William 111.,
chap. 29. The charge was clearly illegal.
After a few words from Mr. Humr,which were inaudible,
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that he thought the different
qualifications of the electors should be stated, distin-'
guishing the fifty pound, the twenty pound, and ten pound.
voters.

Lord ALTHORP thought, that if the Hon. Member
for Dublin wished for these returns, he should make them
the subject of a special motion.
The returns moved for by Mr. HUME were then
agreed to. •
Mr. GOULBURN moved for a return of the bene-
fices in Ireland in which service has been performed within
the last three years.
Lord ALTHORP said he had given notice of a motion
for some alterations in the old, and also in the new, Cor-
porations, on Thursday next. He meant now to postpone
his motion, on account of some information he had re-
ceived, which induced him to alter the terms of his motion.
He hoped the Hon. Member for Middlesex would agree to
postpone his motion on the subject of Corporations, of
which he had given notice, to a future day.
Mr. HUME had no objection to postpone his motion.
Mr. O'CONNELL slid that the plan proposed to be
adopted in regard to English Corporations, would be
equally fitting for Ireland. He did not see why the same
measure should not he adopted towards them.
Lord ALTHORP had no objection to refer the case of
the Corporations of both countries to the slate Committee.

Sir ROBERT PEEL doubted the policy of referring
them to one Committee.

Mr. O'CONNELL was decidedly of opinion that one
Committee was preferable. The same principle applied
to both countries, and by referring the subject to one Com-
mittee, they were more likely to arrive at sound principles.
Mr. JARVIS begged to ask the Noble Lord if he meant
to include Corporate Local Courts in the Inquiry to he
made by the Committee?
Lord ALTHORP'S answer was inaudible.
Mr. ATTWOOD moved for a retur❑ of the sums paid
i❑ and drawn out by the Trustees of the Saving Banks in
the United Kingdom during the year 1832.
The House adjourned at eleven o'clock.

THE NEW NOVEL, BY THE AUTHOR OF
t' CALEB WILLIAMs."—" Deloraine," the new work of
this celebrated wri er, will be delivered to the public in a
few days. Of this author it has been said, that he has
founded a school of novel-writing which rinks among its
adherents many persons of distinguished talent; but none
has attained that vast power which, in the hands of Goo-
WIN, shook the public mind with emotions, and enga2ed
it by sympathies that, till his fictions appeared, had
scarcely ever been called into action, though their existence
was deep in the human heart.

ANECDOTE OF THE PRESENT KING OF
PRUSSIA.—Every one who is acquainted with history, is
aware of the refusal of the miller at Potsdam to sell Lis
mill to FREDERICK the Great, who was anxious to ob-
tain the land on which it stood, and of the respect paid by
that Sovereign to the rights of property. The mill has
stood from that illy to the present ; but the possesKor
(FRANK SANS Souci), having been ruined by the wars,
resolved to sell for ',lead what his ancestor had refused to
yield to the gratification of the Monarch. He write,
therefore, to the present KING, stating that he was driven
by misfortune to dispose of his property, and that if, like
FREDERICK the Great, his Majesty was desirous of im-
proving the appearance of his grounds, by the demolition
of the mill, he had now an opportunity of purchasing it :it
a moderate price. The KING is stated to have s,nt the
following reply in his own hand :—" My dear Neighbour,
I cannot permit you to sell your mill. It shall be the
property of your family as long as a single member of it
survives, for it belongs to the history of Prussia. I ail),
however, concerned to hear, that you are in straightened
circumstances, and therefore send you 6,000 dollars, to
remove your embarrassments. I hope this sum will be
sufficient..--;Regard me ever as your affectionate neighbour,
FREDERICK WILLIAM."