The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-19 00:00:00

SUN,

THE

elesey---
butte; much less the laity, had been consulted on the this Papal astaresion now, they would have to withstand
tipeti • He cunsiierei it. Wzt,, 11l bottle ..,01L, .411 .1e;g1',,o101/ I, Lettt.tl,l, ahe ii, r+o, .11.1 Lia,l' t eterusr pay. sr.
The the rights vested in her Majesty's subjects. , They had heard appeals made upon the score of conscience,
plaFheme for the division of the dioceses of Cloyne and with reference to this matter. He would ask them whether
ti 73,7 in Ireland had its origin in Ireland, and the Pope had the introduction of the word conscience was to be a spell for
6:1., Islothing more than confirm the arrangement which had which they were to be bound. That might be pleaded in a
11-,°, übmitted to hi non the subject. In that case there very extraordinary sense. It was put forward in the case of
14;°een no aggression ; and consequently there had not Archbishop Franzoni, in Sardinia, who claimed exemption
141._a,11ything to jastify the monstrous attempt to include for ecclesiastics from the' jurisdiction of the civil courts, and
aerta in the provisions of that measure. He thought that that they should be all subject to the ecclesiastical courts
inajesty's Government had come to a very proper deter- alone. The Government of that country repudiated this as-
se„,,Von when they had resolved on not extending the sumption, and maintained it. Yet the resistance presented
atiTamente in the Bill beyond the requirements of the case; in that case to the Government was called a matter of con-
' If the
tsar. y had carried that determination fully into effect, science. In this case, the assumption of territorial titles was
toe set
have confined the operation of the measure to called a matter of conscience. He would ask what had
.iiiid'et of a foreign power conferring titles in this country, territorial possessions to do with the domain of the
, sab. would not have extended it to the conduct of British spirit? The Honourable and Learned Member for Ply-
sthiters assuming certain titles. He had further to say, mouth said that for the exercise of the liberty of conscience,
a
yozo u any case the Bill ought not to be extended be- they required that they should use these titles, and ob-
tak" the country in which the alleged aggression had served that they were legislating against the natural
kali place. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member use of language. They had on other occasions, how-
a,,,Joe city of Oxford (Mr. P. Wood) had talked a good ever, legislated against the natural use of language.
tilTil,gf the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church ; but They did so after the expulsion of James 11., when they pro-
kron. and Learned Gentleman had in his (Mr. Anstey's) hihited the assumption of the title of James 111. in his son.
.T!ts °.n evinced but a very imperfect knowledge of that law. ( Hear, hear.) The legislated against the natural use of
4 .TaCt was, that the canon law varied in different coun- language when they found it necessary to repress a moral
saetsa., and for his part he trusted that some measure would wrong committed against any individual or any portion of
„titi "" taken, if not directly, at least indirectly, to prevent the body politic. They called this Bill a persecution, and
L 4 eh tension to this country of that jus canonicum from also argued that it would be inoperative. He would ask
Attu the extracts of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had how could that be called a persecution which confined itself
.17taken instead of the ancient canon law of England. to forbid a foreign potentate from conferring territorial titles
the• believed there would be great difficulty in reconciling within these kingdoms. This was a new plea. It was not
a,,Pmatnon law of England with that new canon law which argued that territorial titles were necessary in 1829, when
,sp';',o_al Wiseman seemed anxious to extend to this coun- the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act was passed, which
4',.__ The fact was, that the new canon law was not the was received by. the. Roman Catholic clergy, although it forbid
17."! a law of England, in which there was a distinction be- the use of territorial titles which they used before. It struck
pliaaal spirituals and temporals, but the canon law of the him forcibly that if there was any persecution in the case, it
lid States, in which no such distinction was known. The was on the part of the Pope against the Roman Catholic laity,
.ess_then under their consideration dealt not with a real who were forced to adopt ultra-montane opinions. It was said
,jrance, but was framed in compliance with a popular pre- it would be inoperative. The Bill, no doubt, disappointed
,c,e'ce. It was, in fact, insufficient in one sense, and exces- many. It was weakened in the withdrawal of two clauses,
es,sna another. It would give no protection to the Roman but the residue was in one respect exceedingly valuable as
aZolic laity in England, while it was most improperly and a Parliamentary protest against this aggression—(Hear)—by
s7-cessarily to be extended to Ireland. On these grounds which it would be proclaimed that it was denounced by the
Tould certainly give his vote against the second reading Queen, by her nobles, and by her people. He thought the
the measure. case required some authoritative declaration of this sort.
'thiaLord ASHLEY, notwithstanding all that had been said on The Court of Rme insidious and worldly wise, used all its
.I'l4,Phject, would revert to the first question—" should the appliances to familiarise the people of this country to a pro-
sad !aMent, or should it not, legislate upon this subject?" minent church. They constantly saw advertisements in the
apers of services to be performed in Roman Catholic
of, Ile asserted that they should. The rights and liberties P
kw large, class of her Majesty's subjects had been invaded, churches.—(An ironical " Hear, bear.") He did not wish
atkettiose who opposed the aggression were denounced as il- to prevent that; he gusted the fact to them, the design on
fasssil_i• They did not, however, anticipate—they did not foot, to familiarise the people with the Church of Rome, and
eisia7, that a British Peer would denounce the proposed le- in order also to put the people on their guard against these
iition against the Papal aggression, as " persecution," efforts. The same priests, walking through the streets in
4 that did they foresee that British senators would denounce their peculiar costume, and soon they would have before
Mined House those who considered the aggression corn- their view the pomp of a gorgeous hierarchy.—(Hear, hear.)
salad of as a lawful ground for the defence of the Queen His object was, not to prevent that, but he thought they
stioh! Government in this country. Should they, then, were bound in duty to make a declaration that these were
...411I'leariad the step taken as an aggression and an insult, the works, and for the behoof of a power they repudiated
Ifienld the not come to the assistance of the Sovereign ? and utterly abhorred.—(Hear, hear.) They should look to
esaould be show that this movement of the Pope was an the real peril of the case. They were mistaken if they be-
at-4aive inroad on the prerogative of the Sovereign of this lieved that Rome was changed, or harmless, or incapable.
114trY, he thought it would not be disputed that the Par- Milton had foreshown what was her policy when he said,—
qnt was called upon to legislate on the subject. One " Then shall they seek to avail themselves of names,
o„.ehowever, had said that everything done to oppose the Places, and titles, and with these to join
1147 in the step he had taken amounted to persecution, Secular po Ner, though feigning still to act
Van interference with the free exercise of his spiritual By spiritual . . •
lies;"°os. Now if that doctrine was admitted, it would im- And from that pretence,
aa,,,:lPOn. the Protestant subjects of this realm absolute sub- Spiritual laws, by carnal power, shall force
%Zen to the decrees of the Pope. The Legislature of this On every conscience."
asti'trY had made concessions to the Roman Catholics by the Rome was not changed.- (Hear, hear.) Those who spoke
0 1829, and it was not, he must say, thought, when of her with contempt were the most likely to become her
eiaLtotestants of this country had consented to make those victims. " The history of the world," says Ranke, " does
lksislogs - concessions which had made their Roman Ca- not present a time in which the clergy were more powerful
hz; fellow-subjects equal with themselves—that they than at the end of the 16th century. They sat in King's
titia7, be placed by any act of the Pope in a subordinate po- councils, and discussed political matters before all the people
--(Hear, hear.) There was another party in this from the pulpit; they governed schools, learning,
(4„, who wished:for legislation on this subject, and in his and the whole domain of letters; the confessional
eials'a Ashley's) opinion they were now deliberating,tnot on afforded them opportunity of prying into the se-
teklect which would have a mere transient effect, but cret conflicts of the soul, and of deciding in all
!' on a subject which, if not checked by legislation, the difficulty sad doubtful circumstances of private life."
seija have a dominant influence on the institutions of this In France the power she had lost was restored in 1815.
ets,,t,rl- He must say that, of all the measures which had In 1830 she suffered something, but afterwards regained
leid-s„"een introduced into this country, this of the Pope had her power, and in Austria ruled with undiminished power.
iu. More than any other to disturb the privileges en- The effect in France was perceptible, for the charter
iitaa by the Roman Catholics, than whom, he must say, was there revoked as regarded Protestants, and in
fact they were placed in as hard a condition as they were
Ils IS•tc,lid not exist a more loyal or more deserving class of
44ec,,s•(Hear, and cheers.) The Protestants of England under Louis the Fourteenth by the revocation of the edict of
T
i Lamed that this step of which the Pope of Rome—a Nantes. The condition of the Pr Aestants was worse new in
liken priest and potentate—had been guilty was a viola- France than it was under Napoleon or any of the preceding
laii' not only of the law of nations, but of the law of this monarchs of France; in fact, worse than in any former
period, excepting the Dragonades. It could not be required
Ile L.-Meer, and cheers)—and a deliberate innovation on
krerogative of, and offence offered to, the Queen of this of them to support such a power as that, or to give facilities
ilk ll's (Renewed cries of " Hear.") He maintained that to promote its ends. It was an ecclesiastical power spread
%it Pe had violated the law of nations, and he would prove over the whole world, under a perfect system of discipline
tstilaY reference to the Papal brief to restore the Roman with one heart. The Wesleyan Methodists, Church of Scot.!
kt Passage
heirarchy. The Noble Lord here quoted the follow- land, and the Free Church of Scotland, the Free Episcopa-
lian Church of England, need not be denied synodical action
leoti;assage from the Papal brief:—" We, of our own proper
Me, on certain knowledge, and of the plenitude of our because they. were not. subject to a foreign power. They
arital power, constitute and decree that in the king- were British in all respects, but because this was projected
tharsk.)f England, according to the common rule of the by the Pope of Rome, that was the reason why they abhorred
tr a,o, there be restored the hierarchy of ordinary bishops, it, and would never submit to the synodical action
leil.Snall be named from sees, which we constitute in these of bishops under the influence of a foreign power, who
be ;:t!srs. To begin with the London district, there will would exercise their spiritual influence for political
11 d two sees, that of Westminster, which we elevate purposes. It was on these grounds that they offered
the.si. degree of metropolitan or araliepiscopal dignity. it an uncompromising and indignant resistance. Though
lliili' then, in the most flourishing kingdom of England he respected the religious opinions of the Noble Earl
fatia Will be established one ecclesiastical province, con- (Earl of Arundel and Surrey), yet he should say that
gof one archbishop and twelve bishops, his suffragans. too much power was assumed by the Pope of Rome, and
Ills 'refore
_ .iany ,we now reserve to ourselves and our successors, that such an extraordinary exercise of power should be
l
•wet_uat ffs of Rome, the power of again dividing the said checked. He did not want that
coercive law should be
eseell•wce into others, and of increasing the number of dio- introduced, but he required that the Protestant Church
tem; and in general that, as it shall seem fitting in the
' we may freely decree our limits to them."
anything he would ask, more imperious thanWthase
kat
•lsa e of the Pope of Rome as expressed in that brief should be preserved against the insidious attacks of the
Court of Rome.—(Hear, hear.) When he looked to other
countries which would not allow any innovation on the
rights of their fellow-citizens, he felt at a loss to know why
h. Page in which he claimed to exercise a sovereignty any trueborn Englishman should submit to the insult and
indignity lately offered. to this country by the Papal autho-
rity realm ?—(Hear, and cheers.) He would now refer
S nsollse to the argument used by Dr. Twiss in reference rity through its emissaries.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT did not see any danger in the
klt:1_18 question. Dr. Twiss, a learned civilian, said—" The
Vatithent could not have been externally more complete, if proceedings of the Roman Catholic hierarchy in this coun-
fts`si een of England had plaeed her realm at the disposal try. In his opinion, if it was considered necessary by the
holye7.. See far all ecclesiastical purposes, nor could the Government to strike out the second and third clauses from
11 hate ha4e dealt with his own territory in a more free and the measure, it was as necessary to strike out the first, for if
IClete manner. But, if there be any one principle of law those two clauses placed such obstacles as they were said to
ktch has received the sanction of that high usage and do in the way of Roman Catholics holding that faith which
l'oZiee which constitutes it a binding obligation on all the they had a right to hold, the first clause placed as much
restriction upon them as the other two, and therefore it
ache
of Christendom, it is this, that the Pope cannot set
1 asi„ge see of a bishop within the territory of an independent ought to be struck out also.—(Hear.) What would be the
effect of the first clause? „They professed to be great ad-
I llati'sea without his consent. Common sense suggests that
vacates and admirers of
at; others than the sovereign power of the land can civil and religious liberty, but
the first clause rendered invalid any document signed by a
kj„ a see within the land. The Pope may give a bishop
bishop, and no legal effect could be given to it. Now, that
IliCilsV. e., may authorise him to go forth as the spiritual
Maria or of the Holy See; but that the Pope should esta- was a most unjust attack, and would lead to the worst
consequences. For instance, as regarded the ordination of
4144 4 territorial seat for his bishop in the realm of a Sove-
a Power without its consent, would be to usurp an attri- priests, the bishop who. conducted the ordination had to sign
ktealt local sovereignty, and to take possession of the land the certificate of ordination af er the name of his see, and
, T o'siastical purposes;" and Lord Stowell, as cited by consequently to assume those titles which the clause prohi-
„%;thownis, says, that " a course of conduct to be legal must bited. Now, should the clause pass, that would be an
t., 44. 'all to be conformable to the usage and position of ac- illegal and invalid certificate. The priest whose ordination
,nd,„A: great part of the law of nations stands on no other it was intended to certify would be considered in law tie be
ile!sd",e,_a." New he (Lord Ashley) maintained that that no priest. The marriages celebrated, by that priest Would
L'e prs,Lnat the Pope had been guilty of an interference with be invalid, and the children, the issue of such marriages,
Latlei,'°gatiye of the Queen, and a violation of the law of would be illegitimate children.—(Hear, hear.) But sup •
tl:•"-- (Hear.) He would refer the House to an extract posing that his Hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey
tl!iete opinion of Dr. Twiss, relating to the temporalities, (Mr. H. Drummond) succeeded in. restoring those second and
~,,:‘ be kept in mind," said that learned civilian, ', that third clauses of the Bill in Committee, which he was bound
3147toporalities were a civil: accident of the sees, into to say that Hon. Gentleman had every reason to expect he
na .119' were put in possession by an act of the Crown, would be enabled to do, what would be the consequence
'aisis,sueir consecration had taken place at the house of the then ? Why, the consequence ,"must inevitably be, that Go-
vt iyP_olitan. It was not, therefore, in any way, by reason vernment would be obliged to vote against the third reading
necipoialities being connected with the sees of the of their own Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He confessed that to him
_ it would be most painful to see things come to such a pass
N 1 bishops, over whom the Pope exercised ecclesias
as
had,t For some years past signs of peace and harmony
N iol4tisdiction before the Reformation. that the Pope was
ilaskr_laim and use. an usurped authority ; it mas not in
andProota tgreat extent, prevailed between the Catholics
In regard to what had been said about toleration, he must
01 t_4l matter, but in causes which he called spiritual, that es ants.—(Cheers from the Government benches.)
a war to dispense with the laws of the realm was disputed
Itaklrown of England, and ultimately declared to be un-
!t, did
thatnot coincide with his views. One Hon. Member
say. that the sentiments he had heard expressed in reference
'+Q So §o much for the law of nations, and be (the Pope)
to
laol?aidtoleration was limited, that it mus be kept
pis A s shown any more respect for the law of the land.
b` of of 1829 was framed to protect the priviliges of the
and, in that case, the onus probandi lay with that
within bounds,E3o as that the persons tolerated did not injure
kll pf and of the Established Church in this country; and you;
),_ t ult,ile conditions put forward for passing that Act was Hon. Member to prove. in what manner the privileges had
Nib ere should be no other ecclesiastical corporation been violated by thte interference of the Pope. He also heard
tillesaghg territorial power in this country; and he held that the Hon. Baronet,. he Member for the University of Oxford,
ittlat 44 been violated. He would go further, and say utter a sentence in favour of toleration—(Laughter)—but his
e:the apostolic letter had violated the law of the opinion of the matter was, that the person tolerated must be
i;ae and he was now quoting from the o authorised ver- of the same opinion as the Hon. Baronet was himself.—
‘ llaof the Latin Brief, ' printed and published by (Hear, hear, aid laughter.) Now, neither of those con-
ti): ei., at the Metropolitan Catholic Printing-office.' " structiona be would. put on the term toleration. His impres-
ts,ta extract it appeared that the Pope had ap- sion was, that in this country
.whether. a man held religious
'S., a bishop to the Protestant see of St. David's. truth or error as the ground of his belief, being an English-
ittiroatr.a4 was this :—" In the district of Wales there will man, he had a right to hold that truth or error, because he
It at hslaboprics—that of Shrewsbury, and that of Menaira believed such to be the truth.—(Hear.) No doubt the argu-
Nil'laavid's), united with Newport We ment adduced by those who supported the measure, were
Nub) the Bishop of St. David's and Newport, as his all very good as directed against the Roman Catholic reli-
esat 1,1 the counties of Pembroke," &c. Now he must say gion. But he denied the correctness of their mode
),..;''ers' was something very insiduons in this.—(Hear, of reasoning. Were they prepared to say, that while they
Lsoki And should they allow it to pass without notice, it were members of the Established Church, they would not
t7tit, at a9Me- future time be said, should objection be raised tolerate that religion, but hedge round
its that Church with
Nt step, that the House, when legislating on the subject, enactments, as a means of preventing operation? He
4' no •
ab,lamos notice, and made no objection to it. The bishopric was a sincere member of the Established Church himself,
j:les,"ll3' W4A.la -case in point, and referred to by Cardinal but he confessed that he thought such enactments would
*gailt-ZI: in see Wads :---e" But there has been a more, re- rather weaken-than strengthen that Church, by rendering it
tile s le inittitimeof the exercise of the Papal suptemacyin obnoxious in the eyes of the world. His notion of tole a- :
'lo4;rection'of,hishelarics nearer home. Galway wasalot an aion Mae:this -,they 'tolerated all religions, they admitted to
tles,`"l4l ise`iiiitil a feW years ago. • • • • •It 'was i seats in that House Members .of-tall religious denominations
i
Ishs rned by as' warden The Holy See changed . who were Christians, and While they had: an Established
4,',
Islvardenship into a bishopric. . . • . Bishop Church, th ss
9' *save the fullest liberty at@ license to every
s'',:feee was consecratedain October, 1831. No retnon- ferra of religions faith under the NOilllatiqy:. system. frues,
rs'° was :made, no outcry raised at this exercise of if they thought the *olunta system wrong, they ought to
44";,, power." Now there was a case nearer home. vote in favour of the measure; but so far as he was con-
Iliop '?3', within the last few years, had been made a bi- cerned, he did not think' it wrong, and his reason for not
Ve: and. Dr. Browne was appointed bishop of that dio- dorngasbolewats, that he knew the Church of England was
°a --(Hear hear.)
ss thq, , , Thus it was clear that the steps taken not
the state inn which
the ground. However, . that was
era,....lape were highly improper, as interfering with theich. they were placed in tins coon ry,
h • an
TtVative of the Crown, and an insult offered to the Queen having . . Established Church tolerating all religions,
Si t 2 !ealm.- (Hear, hear, and cheers.) He (Lord Ashley) and
giving the greatest liberty and license to all.
d_NtWned that it was an interference with the functions of Because
.e was a member of the Established Church
N114,n: and if not checked, who, he would ask, could was he going to ask a man whether he belonged to this
~_llnat would be the consequence of the Apostolic brief or thatterCahuerfchf,ait?ir what were his opinions in regard
std i Protestant institution of this country ?—(Hear, hear, to
matters
admit him and doctrine, and all such, before
kli • land cheers.
ta tar. eers.) Was there, he would ask, ever any act of he wouldthemembers
to the same privileges as a free citizen,
0 ill 'IP. potentate or foreign state more insulting than which . . t of that Church enjoyed. If they gave
sire 4 the
brief?—Hear, hear.) If the Parliament would toleration in i s proper sense, it was ridiculous to put such
IV he Queen and the country would not.—(Hear, hear.)
e aa, queries; and giving, as they did, that toleration, what right
4 or,, GORMAN MAHON—The Queen? had they to prevent any of those denominations tolerated to
kI " ASHLEY- The Crown would not yield. Whom
11 • th means for
take all proper
_carrying out their system of religi-
ous belief. And that led him to the question of the aggres-
Na e Pope sent to take possession of the kingdom ? A
sion by the Pope, so
it hi talked about. So far as that ques-
t
of the Church, a noble of his own Court The
tion was concerned, was notorious to all that for a long
44 Which that person had used were remarkable, tat, the,perio . d the Pope of Rome had this country marked out and
htlelitattY would not forget the tones of that dulcet in- districts and
divided into dioceses, over which he had placed
‘lllls, 119,11. It reminded him of the animal with "two
changes ostolic. And he wanted to know i w
si lee
asi et 0,„. a ram which spake like a dragon." " lay
pof late made in the establishmentnof hat.respect th. e
Pi.rit 118 4 '9th of September, his Holiness was pleased to ap-
place
.. status or their privi-
tiarath,, ttough most unworthy, to the archiepiscopal see of ,religious? They
t""llist by letters apostolic,
a„ ria,.. er, established
anotherthing; might talk to him of lan-
fiell4;le time, the administration of the episcopal see of uage, but that was
sema wordsand, in respect to that,
sh°l3, &ark, so that at present, and until such time as the be might state that
of di sounding and high pre-
tensions on. the part ecclesiastics, who had got a little
sell ea'e shall think fit otserwisa to provide, we govern, and
ksllslitkna
~„ eto govern the counties of Middlesex, Hertford, 1 Power;
' conferred upon them, was no new thing, and ought
s, -4, ft'x, as ordinary t'. ereof, and those of Surrey, Sussex, 1 not to astonish them, while, 'at the same time, he admitted
of the Pope's bull and the manifesto
si., lieh,rkshire, and Hampshire, with the islands annexed, that the language of
f•j_le al!lnistrator with ordinary jurisdiction," Such is the ' the Cardinal was of the
most offensive description,-(gear,
10 essthe letters missive of all the bishops taking jurisdic- . hear.) It was said that one.
great evil attendant upon the
be
I,keet 'Mer this authority. If they could mistake that, let i aggression would be that it would the means of intro-
gieh attend to are extract which he would read to them, ' ducing the canon law into this country. But the canon law
Vta Iv had existed, more or less, ever since the Reformation.-
i- aas important, as bearing upon this question. There•
tittori" a child in the country who was ignorant of the ( the system of vicars aposto-
Hear, hear.) It existed under.
___
t1°,14, 441 career of Thomas A'Becket, who claimed for the lic, or at all events such portions of it as the Pope chose to
enforce, while, at the same time, as he was told, those vicars
seat arlinion over the estates of the kingdom, and whose
apostolic were most offensive to the great majority of the Ro-
te strhis-4, was that the Church should ride roughshod over
man Catholic la ty. And then, again, in Ireland, they had
414! 1.:le realm The extracts he would read would show
• Ach Pith of 'the whole canon law ; but there it did not clash with the
extract,
bra
,s-ee t. these transactions. Here was one and if
civil law, it
been nourished as was pretended it would do here, the
b tile f remind. you where and how I have
.11 "th? Ilikely • dother, people of Ireland were enlightened enough to resist the as-
tht e Is,T„,, sit that I shall be behind any
sumption of that law, who could doubt for a moment but that
• `"Phyte or
hi riej, Catholic of ancient stock, in defendin s
the Roman Catholics of England would do the same? In
1,0 ell rir of m Lord and master ? The second altar at the Attor-
the next dace as to the
r. t wls ',nelt, in tie Holy City was that which marks the
,
'l4ll "reon ,St. Peter G I I 11, 1 ld
ney- enera at to them this measure was to preven ,so
Isi.i g throne with. cemented the foundations of his un- far as the Roman Catholics were concerned, he would ask,
'441°14 St
was it seriously intended to prevent
that ? It was allowed
th t by, • Thomas (of Canterbury). For 22 years I daily iin every Church ' •
in this country except the • sta-
E
~_ltt
fileore tbe bod r sentation of •
y rep e is martyrdom ; at
'dt I blished Church, and it was not allowed in it be-
cause Partook even of the bread offfe • there, for the cause that Church being established did not require
th N3iB, I celebrated the divine mysteries • att. it. I received
Ott,c°Pal consecration. He ' , I it. Perhaps it differed in form in different denominations,
a eln was my patron, he my m- 1 but in them all it existed in some shape or other,
too pat Y model. And, withdrawn from tb 1 f
4 , roll, e sym o s 0
and why deny it to the Roman Catholics? They talked
lea gat th ge bY the supreme will of theists Pontiff, I
of the Synod of Thurles, and they blame the bishops then
1,,a0,4._ e treasury of his relics at Sees, and with fervent
`ille in7rtity
~.asked assembled for interfering with civil and temporal matters.
ith a'‘Yred and obtained the mitre which had crowned
4 Q 44 Wiseman,head."--" Words of Peace . and Justice," by '
1838.- If they did not withstand Now, he was an assenting party to the establishment of those
1 colleges which called forth the strongest expression of their
opinion and disapproval; And he mutated to these establish-

merits because he thought they would be the means, by dif.
fusiaa eiluaatiee ateata; the middle classes in Ireland, of
greatly benefiting that country; but had they never heard of i
any of the clergymen resident in this country interfering with
secular affairs? Why, in 1845, when there was such a noise
and commotion the country respecting the removal of the
taxes on human food, had they not Dissenting ministers from
all parts of the country meeting in Manchester for the pur-
pose of considering how each could in his own district best
forward the repeal of the corn-laws.— (Hear, hear.) Cer-
tainly that was synodical action. Some Hon. Members, in
proof of the tyranny and intolerance of the Roman Catholic
Church, had alluded to the Sicardi laws, but that was the
Church of Rome in Italy. I's was monstrous to say that
there could be any comparison between the system here.
and what was carried ( n in Italy and Spain, and it was as
ridiculous to say that even if there was, they could get rid of
it by declaring that such a one, instead of being Archbishop
of Westminster, should be a Bishop of Melipotamus. But in
Ireland no danger was dreaded on the part of the Roman
Catholics who supported these colleges, notwithstanding that
they had been denounced by the bishops; for he found Sir
Robert Kittle, who was at the head of one of them, instead of
quailing before the manifesto of the bishops, coming forward
and boldly defending the rights both of Roman Catholic and
I Protestant, in utter oblivion of all religion:3, differences of
opinion. From the speech of Professor,liane•he had derived
mu .h pleasure, and he would not conceal the spirit of satis-
faction with which he had witnessed the eff.ct produced on
the intelligent portion of the Roman Catholic mind in Ire-
land by the deliberations and resolve of the Synod regard-
ing the national colleges. So far from. yielding• slavislrobe-
dience to the dictates of that body they had ineawed their'
support of the colleges. The Honourable tiaranete4i
Member for the city of Oxford, had asked why thty;ffikiatie
negotiate with Rome, and endeavody, through' diplomati
agency to receive satisfactory apologies for the aggression
that had taken place. Now he was taut certain that in the
eyes of Europe they should be justified in proceeding to those
extremities. If, as they had been advised by more than
one Hon. Member who took; part in the discussion on the
Bill, they were to proceed in a hostile manner against the
Pope, might it not be asked, had they not, to a certain ex-
tent, given an invitation to an aggression of the description
now loudly protested against? There was much truth in the
statement that a proclamation might have got them out of
a struggle which threatened to be fatal to the tranquillity of
the country, and was likely to result in ridicule on them-
selves. But when they went striking out clauses, now said
to be unnecessary, and leaving an insufficient preamble to
the Bill, a state of inextricable confusion would be sure to
follow. In pursuing the couPse recommended by her
Majesty's Government they were striking a blow, not at
the Pope for an act of foreign aggression, but at the Roman
Catholics of England and Ireland,and this was;not the consti-
tutional mode of grappling with the difficulty. When the
Bill came to be properly understood it would be
regarded by the great bulk of the people as a
penal law, and he believed that the spirit of the English
people was decidedly adverse to persecution. Without
having one of the advantages expected from the measure,
they would be deluged in all its discredit. It might fairly
be characterised as a sham piece of legislation. If, as the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General said, the
conduct of the Pope was an act of invasion of the Royal
Supremacy, why were not the previsions of the Bill of 1829
put in force to stop it? The assumption of the title of
Bishop of St. David's was clearly a direct violation of a
clause in the act of 1829. Well, that being the case, why
did not the Government put the law in force, if they
really meant that the Bill now under consideration should
not remain a dead letter? But, in truth, the Bill was a Bill
to satisfy the feelings of the people, and at the same time to
deceive them. The feelings of the people, however, were
mistaken. The recent demonstrations throughout the
country meant that the Roman Catholic religion was ad-
vancing, and that active steps should be taken to prevent
it. (Hear, hear.) The people deprecated the enactment
of penal law. The question weighing upon their minds
was a religious question, and not a political question. Their
attachment to the reformed faith formed the groundwork of
objection to the progress of a religion which they regarded as
unscriptural. Public opinion could not be beaten down by
an Act of Parliament. For two hundred years that system
was tried with the Roman Catholic people of Ireland, but
ultimately the Government had to yield to fear that which
should have been frankly given to justice. Were they now
going to retrograde and to adopt a course of legislation
inconsistent with the character of this country ?
If they wished to repress acts of aggression by
foreign Powers—if they wished to prevent the introduction
of bulls—why not legislate, not against the Roman
Cstholic community of this country, or against the Roman
Catholic Church, but against the foreign potentates who
committed those acts of aggression on the royal prerogative ?
That was the practice pursued in other countries. He had
gone at greater length into the subject than he had intended,
but he would say this, that he did not think there was the
slightest fear to be entertained for the increase of the Roman
Catholic body. He must add his belief that the doctrines t f
the Church of Rome were foreign to the genius of the people.
The right of private judgment, to which they had long been
accustomed, they could not enjoy under its institutions. Let
them only look at the Index ex Purgatories, for a list of the
most excellent books which were prohibited on political
economy, history, and religion. Amongst them were the
" Scapulas Greek Lexicon," invaluable to a Greek student. If
he studied political economy, there was Jeremy Bentham ; if
history, there were Hume, Goldsmith, and Robertson ; or if
science, then he must not look into Chambers's Philosophical
Dictionary, or Locke, and a number of others, down to a
small tract, called " The pairyman's Daughter." Such a
system, therefore, was, in his opinion, unsuited to the habits
and spirit of Englishmen. Without intending any offence to
his Roman Catholic brethren, he must assert his confidence
in the truth of his own religious faith. A certain element of
persecution still remained, but until that spirit was extir-
pated the work of the Reformation would not be complete.
Those who thought themselves Protestants because they
acted in hostility to those who were not so were not true Pro-
testants, and he believed the time was drawing near for the
triumph of the old maxim " Magna est veritas et preva chit,'
and when they would seek to meet Romish aggression in the
only way in which it could be met, by the spread of our
Gospel principles, letting in light where darkness existed,
and trusting with confidence to Almighty God for the result.
Lord PALMERSTON said he must crave the indulgence
of the House for a few moments; but would take care he did
not encroach too much on their attention. There was, in-
deed, a great part of the speech they had just heard from his
Right lion. Friend which belonged more properly to the
Committee than to the present stage of the: discussion—
(Hear, hear)—and there were some parts which he thought
it would better to leave for the further consideration of his
Right Hon. Friend, who, perhaps, if time had permitted,
might have settled some questions which at present appeared
to be undetermined in his own mind.—(A laugh.) First,
what he would do, objecting, as he did, to what the Go-
vernment had proposed ; and next, perhaps, he might come
to a decision as to whether the Bill• to which he objected
was a nullity or a persecution.—(A laugh.) For his part
he would freely confess that he never remembered, since he
had had the honour of a seat in that House, any dis-
cussion that had been so painful to the mind as that in
which they were then engaged.—(Hear, hear.) He
had hoped that when the disabilities were removed
in the first place from the Dissenters, and afterwards
from. the Roman Catholics, that discussions and contro-
versies on religious questions would never again be heard
within the walls of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) He had
hoped that when they had established, not what gentlemen
called toleration,—for he, like others repudiated that word
(Hear, hear)—and said that the principle that was estab-
lished was not the principle of religious toleration, but the
greater principle of religious freedom.—( Hear.) He had
hoped, he said, that when that principle of religious freedom
had been faily established by the Legislature of the country,
those odious controversies with regard to religious doctrines
would never again be heard within the walls of Parliament.
—(Hear.) But whose fault was it?—(Hear.) Was it our
fault? (Hear.) It was not.—(Hear, hear.) We were
met% by an act of aggression by a foreign authority—an ag-
gression of a political character (Hear)—and in that re-
spect only would he address himself to it. It was an ag-
gression on the independent soveriegnty of the country
which he held it was our bounden duty to repel.—(Hear.)
He Said the aggression was by a foreign authority. His Right
Hon. Friend had drawn a broad distinction between a foreign
sovereign and the Pope, and said that the measure might
have proceeded from the Pope, and when he might have been
driven from his throne and lodging in Brook-street ; but he
(Lord Palmerston) said that still the Pope would have been
a foreign authority, and it was because it was the act of a
foreign authority that he objected to the power the Pope
had attempted to exercise in the realm of England.— (Hear,
hear.) But it was said that this act was partly the fault of
the Government; that certain indulgences had been shown
to the Catholic episcopacy of Ireland; that certain courtesies
had been shown to the priesthood of Ireland, and certain
opinions had been expressed in debates in Parliament; and
that all those things, and, moreover, the silence of his Noble
Friend three years ago at Rome, when a supposed paper was
shown to him, and he was said to have been told that that
:regarded England; and that after those things they had no
right to be surprised at what the Pope had done, because he
was sufficiently borne out and encouraged in his expectations
that they would meet it with indifference. He did not think
those grounds were 'outacient to justify the act. Either the
Pope thought the Meas4ires he attempted to ad )pt would,
be agreable, or not at leaSt disagreeable, to the G'overnment
and the people of this country, or he would not care whether
they were agreeable or disagreeable to the Government and
the people.—(Hear.) If he attached any value to the cir-
cumstance that his measures would be acquiesced in by this
country, why did he not, in the three years that elapsed
since the supposed conversation with his Noble Friend, and
the period anterior to the publication of this Bill and other
letters —why did he not take those steps that were in his
power, to ascertain what was the opinion of the Government
and of the people of England.—( Hear.) Where was Dr.
Wiseman? Was he not in England? Had he no opportu-
nity of seeking a personal interview with his Noble Friend at
the head of the Government, and ascertaining positively and
beyond doubt and dispute, whether the measure the Pope
contemplated, and of which he was conscious and aware,
would, or would not give offence to the Government and the
people of this country?—(Hear)— and, therefore, he (Lord
Palmerston) contended that as that course of proceeding had
been studiously omitted, it was impaisible for either the
Papal authority or those who advocated his cause to shelter
themselves under the pretext that things had taken place to
justify the Papal Government in supposing that the step it
was taking would not be offensive to the people of this coun-
try.—(llear, hear.) Well, then, this being an aggression of
a foreign authority, what was the authority by whicn that
aggression was made? It was an authority of an ecclesias-
tical nature, which had a double action on the minds of men.
(Hear, hear.) He entered not into the question of the
simple theological difference between the Prosestant and
Catholic lieChurc With that they had nothing at pre-
sent to do. was sincerely attached to the Pros
testant Church, and while he respected the difference of
opinion of his Catholic brethren,—and far be it from h m
ya al s theological(ear,
to utter one syllable that would be painful to their reli-
gious feelings,— he must say that the Catholic Church had
hear.)bod Theba
t
character of the Catholic Church was not merely contra-
distinguished ha er
politicalas p aspect,— , —a
n. wasd
te m
temporal
Imbeordeyl
on temporal power. Churches were corporate
from, but exceeded all others in its encroach-
mentsbodies and corporate bodies were naturally encroaching ;
but there was this difference between the Catholic Church
and the Church of England:—The latter was a British
Church, having its beginning and end in this realm. The
in every place over the whole
voured to spread its authority
Church of Rome sprang from a foreign centre, and
Christian world. world. —(Cheers.) But what was the action of
that Church? What was its temporal and political action?
Look at those countries in which the Catholic Church was
, predominant. Look at Portugal—look at Spain—and look
at Italy. Look also, he was concerned to say, at Austria.—
(Hear.) They would find that wherever the Catholic Church
was allowed to seize hold of temporal authority, that there
its influence was painfully exercised over the temporal and
, political interests of the nation.—(Hear, hear.) Then, he
, said, that some measure was rendered necessary by the
course the Papal Government had adopted, that it was neces-
sary to satisfy the feelings of the country.—(Hear.) lie
thought that no man who had had his eyes and ears open
during the last few months could for a enonieet dispute. He
knew it had been said that they wished to keep up a de-
lusion, that the agitation of this country was a partial agita-