The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, ITIDA Y, JULY 1$ 1834,

who sat in that House.--( Hear.) At all events it would have
all the support which could be afforded to it by the humble*
individual who Was now addressing them. No one was More
anxious than he was to give efficacy to a measure practically
to ensure peace , and the p!.'ofettiiin of pipperty, and thus to
enable itefSoris who are well disposed to remain in their houses
instead of being forced to quit them by the disturbers of
public peace, and - the violators of the rights of prokrty.
He could not but think that the course which the Noble
Lord had pursued was a complete vindication of those inde-
pendent men in that House who'had expressed the strongest
anxiety with respect to this measure, and nothing was more
proper than that the' Noble Lord who had retired from the 1
Administration on account of his opposition to the Coercion
Bill, should, on that principle, return to it.—( Cheers.) As to
the Tithe Bill, it deserved the deepest consideration, and he
hoped he should be able now to show, that in the arrangements
of that Bill, however well-intentioned it might have been—
and he believed it to have been so—yet, instead of mitigating
the evils, it-most unfortunately would tend to aggravate them.
If he could establish this, he did not despair of some other
course being adopted by his Majesty's Government. He would
recommend the postponement of' this measure for the present,
and they could then bring forward a measure more matured at
the commencement of another session.—( Hear, hear.) That
he hoped the present Government would consent to do, and
having raid so muds, he would have resumed his seat, but for
pine obServations in which the Hon. Member for Essex had
indulged, in which he had alluded particularly to him (Mr.
O'Connell) and to a Noble Lord, who, if permitted to do so,
he would call, in the language of the House, his Noble Friend.
As to him (Mr. O'Connell) the Hon. Member for Essex
said that hie objects were perfectly well known. He was
much obliged to the Hon. Gentleman for so saying. He
wished to act with perfect courtesy to that Hon. Member,
but he was sure that he could not return the compliment.—
( A laugh.) He (Mr. O'Connell) had been long enough a
Member of the House to have heard the Hon. Gentleman ad-
vocate, with equal ability, the principles of one side at one
time, and of the opposite side at another time, so that it was
far from easy to say what were the objects of the lion. Gentle-
man.—( Laughter and cheers.) Nay, in one and the same
speech he had heard the Hon. Gentleman, if he mistook not,
advocate both sides.—( Renewed laughter.) However sensi-
tive the Hon. Gentleman might be as regarded the Protestant
Establishment in Ireland, and however anxious he might be to
preserve it for the sake of the purity of the Protestant faith,
he might surely alloW that the late Member for Nottingham
was quite as go6cl'a Protest,' pit as he (Mr. B.) was._( Cheers. )
When the it,,i. CientL.;an said that Ireland would suffer
from that Noble Lord having joined the Administration, he
would ask the Hon. Gentleman in what respect he could com-
pare with that Noble Lord? ' He would ask what was the
connexion with Ireland of the Hon. Gentleman who ventured
that assertion ? While, on the other hand, was not the Noble
Lord intimately connected with the interests of the country ;
had he not the strong tics of property and of hereditary
honours ?—( Loud cheers.) Did the Hon. Gentleman
know that there lived in Ireland no family whose name was
so honourably connected with the brightest periods of her
history, or that was better known as the advocate of popu-
lar measures, and at the same time the most decided
enemy of every faction and measure injurious or threaten-
ing to the stability of the throne or the liberties of the
country ?—( Cheers.) The accession of the Noble Lord to
Office, would be a source of great delight to the Irish people.
They would see in it a pledge to them that it was the inten-
tion-of the Government to act for the benefit of their country
—that there would be no more measures for the mere support
of a faction—that the instrutnents of' faction would be laid
aside, and that Ireland would at last have the advantage of a
liberal and enlightened Government. That Noble Lord knew
Ireland perfectly, and loved her well ; and his appointment to
office was a pledge that this Majesty's Government seriously,
honestly, and manfully, intended to look into the grievous
abuses existing, with a view to their removal. He hailed it
.as a symptom of a most pleasing nature, that the. Noble Lord
was invested with power. It would he in vain to say that he
(Mr. O'Connell) had any personal object in eulogising the
Noble Lord ; it was sufficiently well known that no one had
more firmness of purpose—that there was not an individual
who was less likely to be influenced in his judgment by any
such appeal. The Noble Lord was one whose judgment was
formed by acts, and who was incapable of being swayed by
anything which he (Mr. O'Connell) might say in his praise ;
it could not be worth his while to accept from him this humble
tribute to his worth. Talking of the Noble Lord's name tar-
nishing the present Administration, why he (Mr. O'Connell)
hailed it as the harbinger of peace to Ireland, and of honour
and dignity to the Government.—( Cheers. )
Mr. GISH ORNE spoke in a low tone of voice. He was
understood-to complain of the undecided measures of the late
Administration, and to express his hope that the present Go-
vernment would act on the principle of pressing forward
treasures Which would be acceptable to the people, without for
a moment pausing to consider whether they would be pleased
to meet with obstruction in another place.—(Hear, hear.)
'Sir R. PEEL said a few words in reply to an observation
of Mr. Gisborne's, which was not heard.
Lord PALMERSTON begged to be allowed to make one
or two observations in consequence of an allusion made to
himself by his Right Hon. Friend near him, by the Right
Hon. Baronet, who had described them as Tories.
Sir R. PEEL—My remark was made in consequence of
what fell from the Hon. Gentleman who has just spoken
(Mr. Gisborne). That Hon. Gentleman said that the Tory
Members of the late Government had been gradually wheeled
out, and that the present Government was .a compound of
"pure old Whigs."—( A laugh.) I 'observed that this was a
mistake7-that they were not "pure old Whigs"—(Laughter,
and cheers from the Opposition), whereupon the lion. Gen-
tleman concluded that] meant to say that they were Radicals.
This I deny. What I meant to say was—that the present
Government do not consist of " pure old Whigs." I did not
say that they are Tory—but that they do not come under the
denomination of "pure old Whigs."—(Cheers from the Op-
position, and laughter.) I recollect the Noble Lord belonged
to the .Government of Mr. Perceval, to the Government of
Lord Liverpool, to the Government of Mr. Canning, to the
Government of LordjGoderich—( Hear, and laughter)—and
I thought that inasmuch as he was a person who had formed
one of each of these Governments, he-could not come under
the denomination of "pure old Whigs."—( Renewed laughter.)
Lord PALMERSTON—AII I rose to say was, that'll the
Right Hon. Baronet
,meant to imply that myself and my
Right Hon. Friend were Tories, then certainly he has in-
spired me with some hope of a speedy improvement in the
present condition of the country.--( Hear, hear.) I and my
Right Hon. Friend took an active part in forwarding the mea-
sure of Parliamentary reform • we are also prepared to act on
those principles which my Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) has
stated to the House this evening—honestly and boldly to
examine all the institutions of the country, with a view not to
destroy, but to strengthen them, by remedying their abuses
and defects—(Cheers)--and if, such being our principles and
our views, we fall under the denomination of Tories, I am
happy to hear the Right Hon. Baronet say so, because, as a
natural consequence, I conclude that we are likely to have hls
support, and the support of his friends, in our efforts to carry
those measures of amelioration and improvement that we may
feel it to be our duty to bring before the House.—(Great
cheering and loughter.) I must add, that Ido not think the
Right Hon. Baronet was well treated by the Hon. Member
for Essex on the present occasion. The Right Hon. Baronet
with his usual good taste and judgment, states that he should
not, on the present occasion, go into any detailed criticism
of the measures of the late or the present Administrations.
The lion. Member for Essex, however, bad begun by telling
us that he had been devoted through life, in personal feeling
arid public respect, to the Noble Lord who has retired from
the Administration-4 Cheers. )
Mr. BARING—ReaIIy, the Noble Lord is quoting what I
never said. I did not state that I had been devoted through
life to the Noble Lord.-( Hear.) What I said was, that I
was an humble follower?f the Noble Lord in party politics
-..,.L.-(liatighter)—up to thedperiod of the change when the Re-
form Bills were . I did not say that I was devoted
through life 'to the Noble Lord ; because, for several years
past, the measures of the Noble Lord have been such as I
could not appt ove.
Lord PALMERSTON—ReaIIy, I had not mistaken the
meaning of the Hon. Gentleman : the correction is not very
th4tOlal; Vie lidd. Gentleman told .us, then, that he had
been the follower of did Noble Lord during the greater part
of his life, because he respected his private and personal con:
duet, and approved of his public principles. But it happened
that, precisely at this moment, whenlfie Noble Lord was in a
situation iti *Vlilelt lie could carry his political principles—
( Much cheering)—that, I Say, was the moment in which this
on. Member thought fit to change his colours, and to
entei into an active opposition to those measures which he
formerly siititiOrftl.—( Cheers.) This is the course which
thisi !IS, Member hat pursued towards his leader. Let us
net!: Oli ' *hat his course is to another.--( Hear, hear.) The
ght Instead,
Hon.
Gh oewn
_-
Hon. embei Ilgitie net under the banners—l do not say be
is bairn absdlutely thereby, but he is acting apparently in con-
i
ever,.. ~,__ .
certw.4„,4hirtimit-gfi
itiih:
iliologdh t
Lporrecicisweuly,,t.h: reverse of that
It is not
which his left,- hear.)
on o f
thatHo Home
subject
b jeet from Secretary ; t
hI e agreen entirelyan and
Gentlemant lem a n c n
re left.
s :ser occasion,t
hadi.n g d othn
for me to geinto a reply L. .
exHamolip.leßoafrothneet.Ri
' - ...me fills the office
~„,
ee 11..
NI- 0 d(bv isi 11
leh ea
at
r ' has fallen from the Hon.
eawrnitehd whale
fib:lila-11'4V
aol:bigteaumianibnetthraenfocsreupDwpulotbritili,tnhc.
to
confidence,
dotrebuni
escteit honarritaltehppaptrtoehitiaesztimiti:tlacfrtetri
this
douse
inut nwill
re-
dounda n dth et 0
1,1 i o country,w n and
honour,i ha vaen ad
tperfectotie accolinVani et
ai
gi o tit ,antrdo. miminppj,ilnoeigs"
Alif toenr. the
F r i unmeasured e
lefta su
tr
he de
Navt thaicgk of :thy ,
of
Sir
-H.'
WhichG Em—y
-.*.t .t. Lord, I.beg the House to recollect what were the • e
cm-
-I^..ife warty of Conservatives.
' ''ture, and re-

cumstances unaei
and came over to the more mout.—
The.circumstances were of a most disintdesteu
dound to his honour.—( Cheers.) As soon as he considered the
party politics of the Noble Lord (Grey) and his friend of a
dangerous tendency, he changes his mis-politics, and at the
very time when the Noble Lord came into power.—(Cheers.)
What does the Noble Lord ?—( Hear) The Noble Lord has been
in the Administration of Lord Liverpool, Mr. Canning, Earl
Ripon, and the Duke of Wellington ; he has been with every
Whig Administration up to the present moment ; and under
these circumstances I should say that my Hon. Friend need
not fear any parallel with the Noble Lord.—( Cheers.) After
the Noble. Lord has been twenty years a Tory, and has approved
of Tdy principles, he ought to be angry when he is reminded
that he has belong'dd to the Whig party.—( A laugh.) If the
Noble, Lord does not like the title of old Whig, perhaps he
will nOf'object to • be caked a juvenile Whig.—(A laugh. )
The Ron. Gallant General, in conclusion, complained
that the present Government was not disposed to pass the
Coercion Bill in the shape in which it was recommended by

Earl Grey, as essential to the peace of Ireland, and to the se-
curity of property in that country.
Lord PALMERSTON—I beg to remind the House, since
this matter has assumed a personal complexion, that I left the
Adminisiratidd df the Duke of Wellington at a time when, in
all human probability, the reign in office df his Administration
was likely to be of very considerable duration. I differed with
the Members of that Government, and I left them on a ques-
tion not of first-rate importance certainly, but it was a question
of Reform.--( Cheers.
Mr. BARING.—BIame appears to have been imputed to
me because I could not concur with those extraordinary mea-
sures of change which were brought forward by the Noble
Lord. Now wish to state that I never, at any period of my
life, voted for any general measure of reform.--(Laughter. )
I don't know what is meant by that laugh. It is a fact that
during the thirty years I have sat in Parliament, I never voted
for any general measures of reform, though I have voted for
such measures as the extension of the franchise to Manchester,
Birmingham, and other great manufacturing towns, and for
increasing the representation of Scotland. Nor had I ever
any reason to suppose that the party I acted with meditated
reform of that description which was at last carried. I be-
lieve that Reform would not have been effected to so great an
extent, had it not been for the change which occurred in the
Administration. The measure which about thdt period was
to have been brought forward by the Noble and Learned Lord
(who was then Mr. Brougham) was of a different character;
and in support of that, in all probability, I should have given
my vote.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. PETRE contended that the censure passed on the
late Ministry was without the slightest foundation. They
had fulfilled the pledges under which they had undertaken
office, and as far as possible redeemed their promises of Re-
trenchment, Reform, and Peace, notwithstanding the sad
forebodings in which many Members indulged with regard to
the last of these measures.
Mr. H. GRATTAN felt that the New Ministry, as far as
ihe measures contemplated towards Ireland were regarded, in-
stead of throwing that country into the hands of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin, would, by acting as they pro-
posed, rather take Ireland out of' the hands of that Hon. and
Learned Gentleman. He denied the statement made by a
Noble Duke in the other House, that more blood was shed
under the late administration than that of any which preceded
it, and contended that more blood had been shed in Ireland
at the period when the Noble Duke himself had been Secretary
for that country. He gave the Hon. Gentlemen opposite
credit for what they had done, and though he did not think it
proper to sign a certain paper, he still might concur in some
degree in its sentiments. He now felt satisfied that he had
done better in not signing the paper, as the support which he
hoped their measures would enable him to give them, would
come with a better grace.
The Writ ordered.
Mr. CHARLES WOOD then moved for a new Writ for
the election of a Member for the borough of Sudbury, in the
room of Mr. Michael Angelo Taylor, deceased.
Ordered.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM postponed his motion for a repeal of
the Copyright Act.
Mr. I-IAL COMB postponed his motion for a Select Com-
mittee to inquire and report upon the petition of Mr. Charles
Beamish, late a clerk in the Navy Pay-Office.
CASE OF CAPTAIN ROBISON.
Mr. MAURICE O'CONNEL L rose to move for copies
of the report made by Captain Robison, relative to the New
South Wales veteran companies, in hisletters of the 23d De-
cember, 1827, and Oth February, 1828, to the Commander-
in- Chief and Secretary of State for the Colonies, and all re-
plies and correspondence thereunto referring. (The Hon. and
Learned Member addressed a few observations to the House,
which weie inaudible in the gallery.)
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
Mr. RICE opposed the motion, on the ground that there
was at present a law-suit pending, on the very subject of the
Hon. and Learned Member's motion. It would not, he
thought, be advisable by granting the papers in a measure to
prejudge the case. If, however, Captain Robison would
draw up a statement of his case and submit it to him (Mr. R.),
he would give it all the consideration in his power. In stating
this, he did not, however, mean to pledge himself to any
course. Upon the grounds stated, he should oppose the mo-
tion of the Hon. and Learned Member.
Mr. O'CONNELL had bestowed the most attentive con-
sideration upon the case of Captain Robison, and he had no
hesitation in saying that he was a most aggrieved man. How-
ever he (Mr. O'Connell) agreed in the objection of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite, and would suggest to the Hon. and
Learned Member for Tralee to withdraw his motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
AUSTRALIAN COMPANY.

In reply to a question from Mr. BARING, which was very
indistinctly heard in the gallery,
Mr. Secretary RICE regretted that the Hon. Member was
not present in the House when the subject of the Australian
Company was introduced. He might then have had informa-
tion upon the subject from those who took part in the debate,
which would have prevented him from prejudging the case.
He begged to inform the Hon. Gentleman that the Bill
upon the subject would be introduced into that House in the
course of the evening ; and in the course of its progress he
would be ready to vindicate the conduct of the Government in
the steps they had taken. The object of the Government
was to see if some relief could not be afforded in the way of
emigration.
DISTRESS IN THE COUNTY OF TIPPERARY.
Mr. SHE IL rose to submit a motion of which he had given
notice respecting the distress in the county of Tipperary. He
had received a letter from Thurles, in which the writer stated
that 2,400, out of a population of 7,000, were in a state of ab-
solute want. The writer of that letter proceeded so far as to
express his belief that there was no use in applying to Go-
vernment for a redress of grievances. That was an opinion in
which he (Mr. Shiel) did not agree with him, and having
written to him, he received a second letter, dated July 8, in
which the writer stated that Major Miller had arrived in
Thurles by order of the Government, to investigate the state
of the people ; and the writer had no doubt but that his testi-
mony would fully bear out the statement that very great dis-
tress existed. Now what he (Mr. Sheil) would suggest was,
that the Government advance a sum of 3001. in order that the
people might be afforded even temporary employment. It
might be asked where was this 300/. to come from. In reply
to that inquiry he should say that there was a very large fund
at the disposal of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests.—
(Hear, hear.) They (he knew it to be a fact) expended the
quit and crown rents in England. There was 50,0001. a year,
belonging, it was true, to the Crown, expended in decorating
Windsor Castle, and (improving the streets of this gorgeous
metropolis. The quit and crown rents of Ireland were thus
expended, and was it asking too much to give 3001. in order
to give employment to the poor starving people ? The Hon.
and Learned Member concluded by moving that an humble
address be presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty
would be graciously pleased to take into consideration the state
of distress of the people of the county of Tipperary.
Mr. RONA YNE seconded the motion. He regretted that
the distress to which the Hon. and Learned Memlier had ad-
verted, was not confined to the neighbourhood of Thurles, but
had extended over to the vicinity of Clonmel. He would im-
plore the House not to defer relief, for while they might be
deliberating on the policy of granting it, the poor creatures
who required it might be starving. He conjured the House
to grant relief while yet it could be of any efficacy.
Mr. LYNCH regretted that the distress had extended to
Galway. He did not call on the Government for a grant of
money, but merely to give employment--to give useful em-
ployment to the people. Government never yet expended
money in this manner that it was not afterwards repaid. There
were places which he could mention, which at present yielded
a revenue to the Crown, but which never yielded any until
money was expended in the manner proposed by the motion of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary. He would
venture to appeal even to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
if money so expended had not been afterwards amply repaid ?
Mr. L ITTLETON did not mean to deny that distress to
a very great extent existed in Ireland; but at the same time,
he could not agree with the statements just submitted to the
House. He considered that the Hon. and Learned Member
for Tipperary had not (as we understood) exaggerated the
evil in the one case, though the extent of that evil as to the
other parts had been over-rated. It was not to be expected
that the Government should be ready to make any great ad-
vances for the purposes required by this motion ' • but the best
means of finding employment for the distressed poor in Ire-
land would be to complete the works which were carrying
on in the counties of Mayo and Galway. He objected to the
ilGovernment interfering until it could be proved that the
landed proprietors in the county of Tipperary had contributed
their portion towards the removal of that pressure which was
complained of. It was necessary, too, to obtain giants from
the Grand Juries. Why did not the Grand Juries- of Tippe-
rary make a rate on the county ? He was not prepared to say
that some small assistance might"or might not be afforded if
a case were made out to justify such a proceeding, with a
view to procure employment for the poor until harvest.
Mr. HUME thought that his Hon. and Learned Friend
• -to move for such documents as might be in
' - *his matter; and he would there-
. 'lidra wing his motion.
LITTLETON, &C.,

it flo bf-'‘.._.
xisieii66 hi •Ifrrett %.
tot sagest the tisoty if NI, w.,._
A ttht. a te* ii'O'rd§ tidni Ale, §titst,, rill—
t6 ni;5116/1 44 a gliValf 0 ii;
Mr: 3-BAS:gl)haNfifinti-s*Xm!.l!ectitellSttoliTal:4 iri '
. . .
Bill
for the coneAatfon of tle,f:sseiSed Taxes CompOntioii BaTll,____-
. i .4,7 41,”)... L, , • -
Mr. HUME expressea u.l r.v.ebg tp.a,t Ore vva'S' nb,' occaftirl
rmhs
oe
an trusted thatupinsatyueicclnhi cot
nh
vi if
sefn tax,
itehne c
eNh
eo
.abw: eopuo
for his reminding the Noble Lora of tug .q 4 4,/invialis 1 but
nothe wgoiluel d
reliefbae f
fg 9 rttodo stpahyee
lsclk:
ilb.ctal
et !I kigdf
relief could be extended to the public, he hoped, that
ncidogeterhnectertain circumstances, the Noble Lord would allow
parties to continue their present rate of compositions to open
new windows when want of air required it. It would be re-
recollected that the consideration of the matter had been post-
poned by the Noble Lord until the introduction of this Bill.
His (Mr. Hume's) wish was to do away with the window tax
entirely, but if that could not be done its operation ought to
be made as little onerous as possible.
Lord A LTHORP perfectly recollected that he had sug-
gested that at a proper period this subject should be brought
under the consideration of the House ; but he was also pretty
sure that he did not at the time give any hopes that he would
concur in the proposition to which the Hon. Gentleman had
referred. When this Bill should reach a Committee, he
trusted he should be able to state The loss which would be the

consequence to the revenue, by the alteration in the law which
had been suggested.
An Hoe. MEMBER begged 10 ask the Noble Lord whether
it was his intention to take off the tax on apprentices ?
Lord ALTHORP said it was not possible for him to an-
swer the question of the Hon. Gentleman at that moment.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. F. BARING having moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to explain and amend the laws relating to the land tax,
Sir C. BURRELL said a few words, and was understood
to say that, at the proper time, he should suggest some amend-
ments in this measure.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill accordingly.
SALE OF BEER ACT AMENDMENT BILL,
Sir E. KNATCHBUbL moved the order of the day for
the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Sale of
Beer Act Amendment Bill.
Mr. F. PALMER addressed the House at some length,
but the greater part of the remarks of the Hon. Gentleman
were inaudible in the gallery. We understood the Hon. Gen-
tleman to call the attention of the House and of the Hon.
Baronet particularly, to the fact that there was no less than
100,000 persons employed in the Beer Trade ; and at this
moment, when there existed a difficulty to find employment
for capital, lie did not believe the Hon. Baronet was aware of
the fact, that a sum of three millions was invested in this trade.
Having attentively considered the subject, he would strongly
advise the Hon. Baronet to withdraw his Bill, and introduce
another, the principle of which should go to enforce stronger
police regulations, and in that case, as far as he (Mr. P.) was
concerned, it should have his best support. He would propose
to raise the qualification to keep beer-houses in rural districts,
as they were termed, and he would almost recommend the
adoption of a 101. licence. By postponing the operation of the
proposed measure, and by making various modifications in it,
they would do an act of justice only by putting persons keep-
ing beer-houses on their guard. He could not satisfy himself
that the measure proposed would answer the purposes required,
more particularly if it were carried this Session. He would
hes. the Noble Lord to recollect the atleantages which had
arisen from the operation of the preient Beer Act ; to look at
the increased consumption of malt, and the increased benefits
which had resulted to the farmers generally.
Sir E. KNATCHI3ULL said, that after the ample discus-
sions which had taken place on the principle of this measure,
and looking to the circumstance of three divisions having oc-
curred upon them, he did not certainly expect at that moment
any opposition to the motion for the Speaker leaving the
Chair. He would not, however, trouble the House at that
instant, because he hoped they would allow him to go into
Committee. He trusted, however, that it would be satisfactory
to the Hon. Gentleman who had opposed this Bill, and to the
great body of the House generally, that he should inform them
publicly (as he had the Hon. Gentleman privately), that as re-
garded the capital which was embarked in the beer trade, this
measure would not in any great degree affect it, because he
proposed to limit the operation of the Bill to all places where
the population should not exceed 5,000 souls, so that all large
towns would not be interfered with.
Mr. WILK S asked whether it was meant, on the 17th July,
in the dog days, to proceed in a measure of such vast impor-
tance ? They had had petitions from all parts of the country,
demonstrating that the House was acting under a delusion in
this instance.—( Hear, hear.) In proportion as they began to
understand the subject, they were the oftener invited to sacri-
fice the interests of a vast number of persons who had embarked
their property in the beer trade, relying on the proceedings of
Parliament. The very concession which the Hon. Baronet
had made as to the limiting the operation of the Act to places
where the population did not exceed 5,000, showed what was
the value to be attributed to the Bill. The effect of the exist-
ing Beer Bill had been to increase temperance amongst the
people.—( A laugh.) Hon. Gentleman who laughed only
proved that they had not attended to the documents which had
been laid before the House.
Mr. A. SANDFORD begged to ask the Hon. Bart. whe-
ther he meant to limit the operation of the Bill to townships,
or whole parishes ?
Sir E. KNATCHBULL was understood to say he meant
to apply it to both; but this would be matter for future consi-
deration in Committee.
Mr. GISBORNE was opposed to the Bill proposed. He
would allow persons to sell beer, not to be drank on the pre-
mises, without licenses ; and he wished to see beer sold like
any other article. He thought himself bound to vote against
the Bill of the Hon. Baronet ; but he would support a mea-
sure founded on the principle which he suggested. If his
Hon. Friend should divide the House, he should have his vote
on this occasion.
Mr. TENNYSON denied that any benefit had arisen from
the present Beer Act ; so far from it, it had proved only an
unmixed evil. When the proper time should arrive, he should
be ready to propose a clause to the effect that no new licenses
should be granted under the existing Act; and that a certain
time should be fixed upon, from whence no beer should be
drank on the premises. The question was, how they were to
get over the difficulty in respect to the mass of property
which was engaged in the beer trade. In retreating from the
existing law, they were bound to do justice to persons keep-
ing beer-houses ; and he knew of no mode by which this
could be done satisfactorily, but by mentioning a period (say
April, 1826) at which the present Act should cease. This
would give an opportunity to those parties to get out of their
pending engagements. The present Bill was a source of un-
mixed evil. In the manufacturing districts the beer shops
were merely truck shops, the masters making an agreement
with their men, and giving them to understand that they
would not be employed unless they used these houses. He
need only refer to the opinion of all the Magistrates in the
country to prove the evils of the present system, and he hoped
the house would not interpose in this stage of the Hon.
Baronet's Bill.
Mr. HUME heard the opinion of his Right Hon. Friend
with deep regret, because if his principle were followed up, he
would establish monopolies generally. The gin shops he
abominated, but why was the poor man to be deprived of his
glass of beer ? He was the more surprised at the observations
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Lambeth, see-
ing that he had voted threughout for the Duke of Wellington's
measure. Now he thought that there was no measure of the
Wellington Administration which deserved more praise than
the Beer Bill. They had a Comrajttee now sitting to inquire
into the habit of drunkenness, and ieerhaps they would find
means to do away with that " unmixet; evil " of which the
Right Hon. Gentleman complained. Why.should they drive
away the beer sellers, and compel the poorer. classes to resort
to gin-shops ? He maintained that the great increase in the
consumption of spirits during the last twenty yeere arose from
the great duty on malt. The Hon. Baronet's Bill would go
to drive the poor to gin shops, where they became demo,-alised•
Let the Noble Lord take off one half of the malt duty-. —let
him bring it back to 10s. 6d. When it was at that price--
when the population was not more than half what it now wail
—there were brewed an infinitely great number of bushels of
malt than there were now. Let the Bill now proposed be
postponed till next year, in order to see what the Committee
on drunkenness would do. Under these circumstances he
trusted the House would pause, and upon consideration con-
sent to postpone the Bill until the next Session. This Bill
would in fact be the same as if they were to put down all
places of public resort, all clubhouses, save one to which all
persons, whether Whig or Tory, should be obliged to resort.
He trusted that the Noble Lord (Althorp) woulconsider that
this was a bad law, and ought not to be carried into effect in its
present shape, and without inquiry.
Lord ALTHORP said that the Beer Bill was a question
which had been in operation for two or three years, during
which time the question had been more than once before the
House, yet nothing had been done. It had been asked more
than once whether it was the intention of Ministers to do any-
thing on the subject, and the answer was that they saw the
evil, and were anxious to remedy it, but feeling the difficulty
of doing so, he readily assented to the proposal made by the
Hon. Baronet ( Sir E. Knatchbull). They had been told that
repealing half the malt tax would remedy the evil. Another
party called out for a repeal of half of the window tax, and
then came the question as to which was to be repealed first.—
( Hear, and a laugh.) He had no doubt that the repeal of
those taxes would be productive of benefit to the country; the
people would be relieved, but then the Government of tie
country must be carried on, and taxes must, therefore, be im-
posed for that purpose. He would readily agree with his
Hon. Friend, if he found that his statements were borne out
by facts. Thus far he would go with him, that he believed
beer shops to be productive of little comparative harm in large
towns, but that was not the evil complained of. The com-
plaint made, and justly made, was that much injury had arisen
in country parishes, and the reore retired parts of the country.
The magistrates, and respectable inhabitants of the country
districts, complained of the demoralisation caused by the
establishment of such houses. It was reet that the law was not
sufficiently strong to put down the grievanet;, but the difficulty
was to make the law reach the offenders. He Led supported
the original Beer Bill under the impression that, hOwever, it
might be found fault with during the first year, it woulduth-
mately be found to work beneficially for the public welfare.
that opinion he found he was mistaken. He now wished to
support this Bill, because he felt that it would only be brought
into operation where the existence of- beer shops was found to
be productive of mischievous consequences. With this im-
pression he had no hesitation in placing the Bill under the
control of the Magistrates.
Mr. WA RBURTON said that of the number of parishes
in England, a large proportion contained less than 5,000 pa-
rishioners. In the larger parishes there might be some
security, but in the smaller ones, where there were from 300 to
500 inhabitants, there was no remedy, and there were of these
no less than 6,600. He opposed the bill in its present form.
Mr. PEASE thought ting establishment of beer shops
'eel to do away with the great beer monopoly. He would
and he would lend
tense—. - into committee on the 17.11:
make it what he
o;edieetst to ge
and endeavour to
his teeet intention to
wished it to tes, teet oppressive to one class o. persons or an-
other, but a benefit and a relief to all.—( Hear. )
DARING said he had no intention of supporting the
Bill on the ground of its giving a monopoly to the trade in
?Waif: or the trade in beer. He would go further and say that
great fig' lad been the injury inflicted by the establishment of
of these beer sitelle hi the country parts of England, he should
still hesitate to put them sown if he thought their being sup-.
pressed would lead to a monerialy in the trade in beer. It was
said that in great towns beer shops did no injury, as large gin
shops were to be found at every corner. This might be so,
but when mention was made of clamour, and of jobs, whoo was
b
it who made this clamour and sought these jixass,
Was it that the Judges of the land did so
soi?t
that the Grand Juries and Magistrates of the country didgrowing
nuisance, these parties, however, had complained of this
nuisance, and was it that they were all mistsket • If they
were not, and he was sure they were not, then it b i
became that
i
House to put down the evil. If this were not done, could
only he
only look upon our rural population as a declining and de-
graded body of persons.
Sir G. PHILLIPS thought that the beer shops in the

66
40
Majority —26 A
The clause being then subjected to several verbal ainelW
mendts, was agreed to. The House having resumed,
Chairman was ordered to report progress, after which
moved for leave to sit again.
DIVISIONS.
Lord EBRINGTON gave notice that to-morrow (I
day) he should bring forward a motion with a view to rescin
the resolutions recently entered into by the House, with re-
spect to the new mode of taking the names of Members °P

divisions.
Lord ALTHORP observed that in that case it would VI
better that the Noble Lord should take precedence of all ail
business, as the matter was one which affected the progress°
the public affairs.
Lord ALTHORP then moved that the other orders of he
C-
day be now read, which was agreed to, and the House adjourn'
ed at a quarter past Two o'clock. ,

B IR THS.
On the 17th inst., in Tavistock-street, Covent-garden, Or!.
Alfred
ho Robins, of a son.
Jo
h°
the 16th; inst., at Tottenham, Elizabeth, the wife of --.
Hodgkin, jun., barrister-at-law, of a daughter.

MARRIAGES.
On the 17th inst., at St. Marylebone Church, William genrl-.-, s
second son of the late W. H. Hoare, Esq., and grandson If
Gerard Noel Noel, Bart., to Araminta Ane, third daughter
Lieutenant-General Sir John J. Hamilton, Bart., of Woodbrol"
county Tyrone.

DEATHS.
O
On the 16th inst., at the Mount House, Stockwell, Rosa,-
M P
second daughter of the Right Hon. the Lord Mayor; ageJ

London : Printed and Published by 111URDO YOUNG
at The Sun Office, No. 112, Strand.