The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-13 00:00:00

SUN,

'there was a steam navy; but tho Right Hon. Gentleman
:was quite mistaken; and what he complained of was,
that whilst the number of steam-vessels had gone on in•
?dreasing there had bola no decrease in the number of
vesselJ, but, on the contrary, an increase. He
found that in 1835 i we'had 155 sailing vessels and 12
eteamers; wheras.in',lB4B we had 160 sailing vessels
Saud no less tlikan 96-Ateatner,?.
Sir F. 13ARING:aisured the Hon. Gentleman that
'eat a...single sailing ship, had been ordered to be laid
'down-since' 18.19, aocl'flitit all the orders had been for
s6-rev:steamers. He was glad to hear the admission
from so many quarters that the navy was in an efficient
condition, and he thought it would be very unwise indeed
to put an end to such a state of things.
Mr. HENLEY opposed the amendment, though he
agreed that the expenditure for the dockyards required
close looking after. • He had voted for Mr. Hume 's mo-
tion to reduce wages, because he was of opinion that
they had been kept up too high. The stores had not,
however, been maintained in the same proportion. It
might be possible to exercise further economy in the
consumption of stems, but there was no evidence to
prove that they ought to be reduced to the extent of one-
third.

Mr. COEIDEN said the belief was general that great
waste prevailed in the dockyards; that ships were being
built only to rot, and thst the fleet already in existence
W 33 sufficient for our protection, or at all events that we
might go on diminishing the number of ships built with-
out danger to the security of the country. If we could
not do this we could not make any reductions in other
parts of the expenditure, and it would be better in that
case at once to tell the public honestly that no reduction
was to be made. Daring the last three years the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had taken credit for stores sold
within that period amounting to a million and a quarter
sterling. A largo portion of these were naval and ord-
nance stores, and he (Mr. Cobden) ventured to say that
upon that amount of stores a loss had been incurred of at
least two millions. He would assume that it was pos-
sible for this country to be involved in a war; but even in
such a contingency as that might we not trust more
to private enterprise than we had hitherto done; and
did not the Right Hon. Gentleman think that by paying
an extra premium for a quick supply, say 20 or 30 per
cent. on the marketable value of the commodities, we
might not get in any emergency all the supplies we re-
quired? He thought, therefore, that by accumulating
this vast amount of stores in our dockyards, we were
incurring needless waste and expenditure. He did not
believe there was any danger of our going to war in any
given month or week; and surely every country had
something to dread from a war with England. We had
seventy line-of-battle ships and twenty more building,
and the Hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. MacGregor)
said that there were 140 Government steam-ships of all
kinds, to say nothing of frigates and smaller vessels, and
the steam-ships belonging to private companies; and he
(Mr. Cobden) had had it upon the authority of profes-
sional men that the steam-vessels of the companies en-
gaged in the service of the Post-office were more than
a match for the whole of the armed steamers of all the
continental powers. Being of opinion that it was op-
posed to the good sense of the country to go on voting
this 800,000/. annually for stores, he trusted his Lion.
Friend would divide the Committee upon his amend-
ment.
After a few words from Mr. HUME,

______ ....... ...... ..
The Committee divided, whea there appeared—
_

For the amepdment ... 38
Against it ... ..• ... 106
Majority ... ... —6B
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote, 298,389/. charge of new works, repairs,
and improvements in naval establishments,
Sir F. BARING stated, in reply to Mr. HUME, that
in the construction of the works of Keyham docks they
were following out the recommendations of the Com-
mittee on naval expenditure. The sum set down for the
powder magazine—viz. 57,0001., was the cost, of the
woi-ks, and did not include the price paid for the land,
the amount fer which had beau voted on a former oc-
casion.
Mr. COBDEN irquired if it was intended to proceed
further with the Key ham dock without making a state-
ment of the plan to be pursued in reference to the com-
pletion of it?
Sir F. T. BARING said they were followicg ont the
recommendations of the Committee on naval expendi-
ture, and they did not contemplate the formation of a
factory.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH—Why, then, was the
amount in the votes—viz., 210,0001.?
Mr. COBDEN said that Sir H. Ward had declared,
when Secretary to the Admiralty, that the whole ex-
pense for Keyham would be wasted if they did not com-
plete the factory.
Sir F. T. BARING could only repeat that they did
not mean to create a factory.
Mr. PETO asked whether the two workshops had any
connexion with the factory or necessitated an establish-
ment?

Sir F. T. BARING replied in the negative.
Mr. HENLEY said the difficulty arose from the mode
in which the estimates were framed, the cost of the fac-
tory being bracketted together with the other items, in-
stead of being stated in separate sums.
Mr. GEACH saw 4,0001. voted for a church; he there-
fore asked was there to be en establishment?

Sir F. T. BARING said the vote was proposed in con-
templation of certain arrangements.
Mr. GEACH thought the Government were going on
upon a wrong system, and the sooner it was amended
the better. There was au expenditure of 690,0004
already to no purpose. Would the House recognise the
further expenditure of 80,0001. now proposed?
Mr. HUME, referring to the expenses of Gibraltar,
wished to know what had become of the revenue of Gib-
raltar—viz. 20,0001. per annum.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
there bad been no remittance to the Treasury for many
years past. The revenue was spent on the spot.
Mr. HUME, referring to the works at Bermuda, said
they were going on in a most unsatisfactory manner ;
400,0001. had been already spent, and now more was
proposed.
Sir F. BARING said the works were in accordance
with the estimates framed by direction of the Committee,
and they were necessitated by the number of convicts
constantly kept at Bermuda.
The vote was agreed to.
So likewise were 26,0001. for medicine and medical
stores.

62,5491. for divers miscellaneous services.
Mr. HUME complained of the charges made by her
Majesty's ships of war for rendering assistance to mer-
chant vessels. They could not afford them the slightest
assistance but the ships put in a claim for conpensation.
It was a reproach to England, that. ships paid by the
Public should not render assistance to the merchant
service without claiming payment. He had written to
the Minister of Marine in France, to know what was
the practice ; and the reply was, that every assistance
necessary was rendered gratuitonialy. He had also
written to the Secretary cf Marine in America, and the
reply was to the same cirect. In this country they saw
from the reports there were vexatio us trials almost daily
on the subject.

Sir F. BARING said a few w ords, which were in-
audible.

On the vote for the Post-office p sekets,
Mr. HUME said, as this was a vote which would lead
to some discussion, it ought to be postponed.
Sir F. BARING having consented,
Tho CHAIRMAN reported prc 'gross, and obtained
leavt to sit again this day.
Oa the motion of Mr. J. BELL, the House resolved
into a Committee of the whale House, when a resolution
was agreed to on which to found a, Bill for regulating
the qualification of pharmaceutic al chemists, and for
other purposes connected with the • practice of pharmacy.
On the motion of Lord SEYMDUR, the following
Members were nominated as a SO ect Committee on the
New Forest Deer Removal Bill:- —Lord Seymour, Sir
Win. Gibson Craig, Viscount Duncan, Mr. H. Drnm-
moad, Mr. Compton, Lord Charles Wellesley, and five
to be added by the Cotnmitee of Sclection.
On the motion of Mr. FITZROY, the following Mem-
bers were nominated a Select Committee on the Coro-
ners' Bill:—Mr. Fitzroy, Mr. Fr shfield, , Mr. John
Evans, Mr. Sotheron. Mr. Child, M r. Beckett Denison,
Mr. Bremridgo, Mr. Nicholl, Mr. 33 ouverie, Mr. Legh.
Mr. Geach, Mr. Wakley, Mr. Napier, , Mr. Corbally, and
Lord Dudley Stuart.
The orders of the day having 'been disposed of, the
House adjourned at One o'clock.