The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-07 00:00:00

It is very true that the Earl of Minto had an interview
with the Pope, and one day when his Lordship was with
him, he said, referring to some papers which were la ing
on the table, " There is a project which affects you."—
, Cries of " Hear, hear.") His Lordship might ob-
serve the papers, but cannot recollect tie circumstance,
or at least the particular sense in which the words were
[ uttered.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) I am not at
all surprised at this, and most certainly
his Lordship used no expressions which could at
L all be strained to imply anything like consenting to the
violent measures which had been adapted with respect
. to this country.—(Hear, hear.) In the various inter-
views whieh he had with the Secretary of State, no al-
lusion whatever was made to this subject, nor was he
led in any way to suppose that such a measure was in
progress. Nor was anything further said, than that
" there is something that concerns you."—(Year, hear.)
Now, having said this, I must refer for a moment to
the conduct which has usually been observed by: all
ecclesiastical bodies in the several states of Europe.
It has always been the custom for the ecclesiastical
powers to press upon the several temporal powers in
every state.—(Loud and repeated cheering.) I have
myself had frequently to repress the aggressive conduct
of the ecclesiastical body of the Church of England when
it has been partially or unitedly attempted to trespass on
the spiritual or temporal liberties of other ecclesiastical
subjects in the realm.—(Hear, hear.) And ii this be
the case with ordinary ecclesiastical bodies, how much
more so was it with the Church of Rome, the members
of which were more than any others devoted to the ser-
vice of their ecclesiastical soperiors, and subject to a
power which claimed for itself the quality of infallibi-
lity.—(Hear, hear.) But in the first place I must refer
to the peculiar practice of the church of Rome,
and if we may judge of the instances which
have come to our knowledge, the Church of Rome
has at all times been opposed to the progress
of liberty and civilization, whether exercised over men
or states. I will at once show how this power was used
when applied to a state which was confessedly Roman
Catholic. It was asserted by Pope Boniface VIII., when
writing to Philip the Fair, King of France, that it was
part of his work to exercise an influence over
the temporal as well as over the spiritual con-
cerns of the nation. Now France was con-
fessedly a Roman Catholic country, and one which
had uniformly and energetically contested the domi-
nation of ecclesiastical bodies. Yet, notwithstanding all
the opposition which was( made to that domination,
Cardinal Galbani continued to assert the same principle.
' I have read with great pleasure and instruction the
' work of Dupin, who is now President of the Legisla-
tive Assembly of France, but who before he attained to
ministerial office had turned his attention to the study of
the progress of ecclesiastical bodies. The observations
of that eminent authority all tended to show that this
imposing domination would ever be exercised. He said
that the Church had always kept her efforts in exercise for
the accomplishment of her objects. She had gained every-
' thing and lost nothing. She knew neither infancy or
widowhood, and therefore was always in progress.—
(Loud cheering.) And here be had a word of admoniton
fur the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck); M.
Dupin went on to say that philosophers thought
that they would be able to stop her pro-
gre.s, but philosophers found that they were mistaken.
He held that the greater part of men, whether from re-
ligious convictions, whether from habit, or whether from
a regard of the opinion of the world, are governed by
religious feeling, and do not (attend to the opinions of
philosophy. Sir, after the opinion of M. Dupont
states in a very small book, but containing an immense
quantity of learning upon the subject of the rights of
states, what the liberties of France are. Now
some of these—and so with regard to other
states naturally enough relate to the ap-
pointment of bieohps and other ecclesiastical officers;
which were dependent upon it in any way, received sala-
ries or emoluments from the state.—(Hear, hear.) Well,
Sir, but even supposing that those who conform to the
will of the Pope ought occasionally to be tolerated.
there aro maxims that have been establised
by law, maxims established by the dicta
of all the courts of justice in France, which
are well worthy of our attention.— (Hear, hear.)
One of these is, that no command of the Pope can
be received in France without the consent of the
Sovereign. This rule applies not only to appointments to
ecclesiastical benefices and bishoprics, but it applies gene-
rally to anything that may be ordered by the See of Rome.
There was another maxim which was laid down
amongst these judges which likewise is well worthy
of our attention. In order to preserve entire
the temporal independence of the King of France,
it was laid down, that if any person should
introduce any Bull or instrument affecting the spiritual
excommunication or censure of any persons in the ser-
vices of the King of France, all his goods and property
should be forfeited to the Crown. Sir, tbat
was a very important and strong power, but one which
was rendered necessary by the assumptions of Rome
herself, for had the King been left without
this power, he would occasionally have been in a
state of extreme insecurity. Such, then, were the
general maxims, such were the laws of France, during
the time of Philip the Fair, and the power, too, was ex-
ercised by the Kings of France under the monarchy.
by Lewis the 11th, a saint of the Roman Catholics.
A VOICE—No; Lewis the 9th.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Yes, and Lewis the 11th and
Henry the 4th. All these princes exercised the power as
fully as it had been exercised in any subsequent
time; but there is another circumstance which I think
well worthy of our attention, because it completely an-
swers the argument tbat with respect to what has once
been done by Rome cannot be undone. Now, according to
the concordat made by Napoleon at the commencement
of the present century, in connexion with the Pope,
that the archbishops and bishops of the Roman
Catholic Church of France were entirely de-
prived of their rights. here is another circumstance
of that nature with eccut r in 1817, when the King of
France, bowing to the wish of the Legislative Assembly
of that period, induced the Pope to annul a decree
abolishing the concordat of Napoleon, and from that
time to this the concordat of Napoleon and the
law has remained the same.—(Hear, hear.) Now, do
not tell me after this, that the Pope can never retrace
his steps.—(Cheers.) Do not tell me that what
once is done by Rome must remain in
force for ever, and can never be altered.—
(Loud cheers.) Do not tell me that whatever re-
sistanoe may now be made by the nation to the edicts of
the Pope is useless, because Rome will not listen to our
remonstrances, or recall her decrees.—(Cheers.) Sir, I
pass now to what was once the law of Austria.—(Hear.)
Austria was once a great Roman Catholic power, but
the laws that she made were of the most stringent de-
scription respecting the introduction of Papal bulls with
respect to Papal appointments, and with respect
to Papal offices. She declared that the civil power was
supreme, and that nothing should be admitted into
die empire without the sanction of the Emperor, that no
document should have force without the sanction of the