The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-19 00:00:00

lhoulisakti.wilit.othrivreslieet to the management of the poor, he He would not, however, dwell on these things,
it wood , ,
cater
to leave that entirely to tne as he had no desire to introduce anything which
!:fe,vailect, aoldes•m In England and S. etiand that principle might interrupt the good t:mper which ought to pre-
%to , Ihy should not the prine:ple be applied
tote ,eiand :—(llear hear ) It v•ou'd be vail in diecussing the nrzsent qu-stion. But what hid
unifornikeeinpinthejwitii
,Lst consonant to *ust'lc hear.)
1 been the prophecy oft he I'lw-traders? They thought
. el if t were. to naat.
the that free trade would greatly increase the gc-noral 0,-
1141 be in three countries. Dolng,so,lac.o
perity of 0.10 country, and he (Earl Granville) thought
our usual of Ica's anon.
terest 'tn. reason for makingg this motion was the deep in- that prophecy was true. The exports had greatly in-
tat Which the lower classes had in this matter, and the
to lit. creased. and during the present year had been six
~nf their welfare was affected. This was his lions more than during the previous year. That in-
iotdci
,desiring
cb that the laws of the several countries crease would show what they might still expect it to be,
me assimilated. assimilated. It they did not pass some if the principles of free trade were carried out. The
444
.retieffrom the
cic4rtt the"',l) as he had proposed, the cons vience would be Noble Lord had referred to letters he had rec, ived from
auper population of Ireland would be driven to farmers in his own immediate neighbourhood, but even
ltal Cheers)ot of thiscountry.—(Hear, he
c,e'elaa He hdl k I -understand these letters only proved that the harvest had been very
ar y new low to
Fact rif the Irish Members ; but it was an ascertained bad last year, and led to the conclusion that, under
tZeft
great numbers different circumstances, and a good harvest, a favour-
to the
poor..r of that population had been sent fur
ebb result might be calculated on. He found by re-
aes of England ; and seeing that
*NZ" the case t
'debarred f , and that the poor of this country 'urns under the poor-law, that. in the county of Cain-
Vbets, so rom marrying lest they should increase their bridge—one of the six of the worst of the agricultural.
re„,alecroacuitl,t,iivoal:es reason would seem to serve if the state of e,unties—the pauper list had exhibited ass increase of
in.lreland was worse than in this country. 1.723 anove what it was last year. The six counties
t per
.bihate in England the persons receiving he had alluded to were Ca abridge, Hereford, Lin-
t) In 'ortY ; in Scotland it was one in cols, Monmouth, Rutland, and Shropshire. In all these
IN_ at ;1; whi:c in Ireland it was only one in sixteen,
amore It from Loin fact that the is' I
Part g ale .1,1 people were there had been an increase to the pauper list; but in
the other counties the decrease had been to the extent of
Ai•aoftho
o.a•!ititute condition than those of any other
69,000—(1Iear, hear)—far beyond the increase in the
noN,.
a3llgl3:nityhen moved that the House be counted, • , .
others Now it would be a very difficult thing, as their
adi4outriiheetue.
Lordships knew to
introduce particular measures to meet
27 Members present, the House
the necessities of particular districts. But to came to
the question as to the effect on landowners and occupiers
of land by the change to free trade, he believed that an
expenditure in some cases had been made in effecting
improvements and increasing the productive power or
land equal almost to a new purchase of the land.
If the effect of the change that had been made would he
to bring this country from being one of the dearest to
one of the cheapest, and one of the most compact in
Europe, it was almost impossible that that could occur
without great shocks being felt by some particular inte-
rest. With reference to France: he (Earl Granville)
had talked with many Frenchmen on the subject, and
be had been informed that in many parts of France
landlords were unable to let their lands. All the mer-
chants and all the landowners admitted that the
fact of food being so cheap in France was the reason
why the manufacturers and the labourers were em-
ployed. He had been much struck with a leading article
which he had seen lately in the leading Conservative
journal of France. It was admitted in that article that
free trade had taken such deep root in this country that
it was impossible to change it. They had seen in con-
nexion with that change the improved tariff in the
United States—the effect in Sardinia—the lowering of
the customs in Russia—the improvement in Austria
from an obsolete system to one more in accordance
with the spirit of the age ; while Prussia
and other countries were engaged making similar
beneficial changes. Tho Noble Lord, after alluding
to the improred comfort of certain classes, and
especially to the old soldiers who were pensioners, went
on to state that he had been informed by the Chief
Commissioner of Police that never in the experience of
the inspectors had they seen the working classes so
happy and so well disposed.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord had referred to the malt-tax. Now those who
really paid that tax were the people who consumed it,
and if that tax were repealed some other tax would have
to be imposed which might not be more advantageous
to the agricultural interest. In conclusion, the Noble
Lord said that Noble Lords ought to state the course
they meant to pursue on this much-vexed question.—
(Hear, hear.) Some it appeared had postponed their
views sine die, while others thought that they should re-
turn to protection. The great leader on this question
ought to state his views—whether it was their intention
to return to protection, or from what burdens they
would relieve the land, and in what way they proposed
that relief should be afforded.—(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of RICHMOND said he had risen not to
answer the question which the Noble Earl had put to his
Noble Friend the leader of the agricultural party. He
(the Duke of Richmond) did not ask the Parliament,
which had not the confidence of the country—he did not
ask them that the burdens which had been imposed on
the land by the advisers of free trade should be got rid
of. It was on the hustings the battle must be fought.—
(Hear, hear.) It was not the duty of the Opposition to
state what should be done. It was their duty to state
their objections to the present state of things. It was
said that the distress was not so great as had been re-
presented, because some superintendent of police had
stated the working classes were so comfortable. No
doubt they had given the labourers of London good em-
ployment at the glass-house.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
It was something of that kind they wanted for the agri-
cultural labourers.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend,
with the feelings of an old soldier, had spoken of the in-
creased comforts of the old pensioners. There might be
some fewer pensioners than formerly, but he did not
know whether there was any greater liberality extended
towards them in Chelsea Hospital; but this he knew,
that Government made them pay for engraving their
names upon the medals they had given them.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He did say it was a hard case when
the landlords were employing double and treble the
number of labourers they did formerly, that the Minis-
ter should come down and say they were not in such
great distresss, because there were not so many labourers
unemployed, when employment was given by the land-
lords under such circumstances. H such conduct was
persevered in, the labourers would be discharged, and
let them take care of the consequences. Idleness was
the parent of crime, and it was fearful to reflect that of
late such daring burglaries had been committed as they
had been made acquainted with.—(Hear, hear) After
alluding to the operation of the malt-tax, and the in-
jury it inflicted on the farmers, the Noble
Lord referred to the condition of the tenant-farmers
in the Weald of Sussex and of Kent, and said be
would ask them whether they had ever heard of
any rent being ever paid out of the small holdings in the
Weald of Sussex, and whether it was not with great dif-
ficulty they obtained the rates.—(Hear, hear.) He
would maintain that the British farmer, taxed as he was,
could not compete wieh the foreign farmer. His Noble
Friend (Earl Granville) had said that they were laying
out more money than would buy the land. He was
much obliged to his Noble Friend for the admission, fur
that was exactly what they complained of. It any one
laid out 100,0001. he could not get back 50,0001. Oh,
bat then, it was said, "Try it."—(Laughter.) lie be-
lieved, before long, as some of the Manchester people
were beginning to find out, that America would be able
to send over cottons cheaper than they could produce
them in this country. The manufacturers would be
obliged to retrogade, for they would find that
the home market would decrease very much, and
that that was the real trade on which they
ought to rely, and not upon the speculating export
trade. The great body of the tenant-farmers had been
ruined, and if they pursued the present course ruin would
continue to follow them, and they must go into the work-
houses or to the United States. The labourers only
asked for work. They had a right to have it. In his
opinion they had no right to say to the man of good
caracter, willing and anxious to work, " You must
either go into the workhouse or starve." As long as he
was a guardian of the poor he should re-
commend his fellow-guardians to grant such characters
out-door relief, and nut compel them to associate with
people ',hose own misconduct and idleness had driven
them into the workhouse.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord WODELIOUSE said that at the present juncture,
whets they saw an attempt being made to reverse the
commercial policy that had been recently adopted, it be-
came the duty o!' every landholder no; to shrink from ex-
pressing his opinion. If he could agree with the Noble
Lord who had just sat down, that the agricultural
classes would be relieved, or even that their
feelings would be consulted, he would say that
as inquiry preliminary to such measures should be
immediately instituted.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) But
while they could not hold out the slightest hope of a res-
toration tithe former system of restriction, it was their
duty to warn the tenant-farmer against being led away
by such a snare.—(Hear, hear.) It was necessary, in
the first place, to understand what amount of distress
actually exists. The Noble Lord had referred to certain
letters from individuals in his own county of Kent; but
these letters were worth as much as was due to the
opinions of these individuals, and he (Lord Wodehouee)
could not take them for more. He could state that in
the district to which he belonged—a district by no means
unimportant—Norfolk —(Hear, bear)—he had taken
some interest in this matter, and instituted inquiries
which had resulted in proofs satisfactory to his own
mind, that the condition of the poorer classes was better
than it had been for many years past.—(Ministerial
cheers,) There was no doubt that there had been con-
siderable reduction in the wages—(dear)—but then the
reduction in the price of provisions had been far more
than equal to that reduction. In his immediate district
wages had been reduced to Ba. a week, yet he had
formed calculations from the prices which proved that
where labourers had large families, as many of them
had, they had not been better off for some years than
they were now.—(Hear, hear.) They had been told by
the Noble Duke who had just sat down, and he believed
by the Noble Earl also. that it was very fallacious to
refer to the condition of the agricultural labourer, and
be had heard with surprise the deductions disputed which
were drawn from the returns of the poor now receiving
relief as compared with former periods, as if these returns
were of no value in such a question. The diminu-
tion was said to be only 10 per cent., whereas
these returns showed it to be 15 per cent., and the
diminution was to be found not only in coun-
ties devoted to manufacturing industry, but also in coun-
ties purely agricultural. In Norfolk, Suffolk, and Es-
sex, all agricultural districts, there had been a diminu-
tion of persons receiving relief, and though they had
been told of a riot by a number of persons in one work-
house, it was only one, and might be accounted for by
special causes.—(Hear, hear.) They had been told that
the tenant farmers were making a desperate attempt to
hold their heads above water. Bat he asked if it was
likely that any body of men would continue to invest
their money in a pursuit which was certain to bo at-
tended with loss?—(Hear, hear.) He knew there were
cases in which men could not immediately withdraw
ther capital, except at a great loss.—(Protectionist
cheers.) But how did they account, then, fur persons
taking new farms?—(Hear, hear.) He knew there was
a great competition for farms, and that farms could
be, and were now let at improved rents.—(Cries of
" Hear.") Another important point was the present
price of meat. Now he believed that the diminution in
prices was caused, not so much by foreign importations
—not so much by an increase in the number of cattle
bred, as by the number of fat cattle now brought to
market in consequence of the increased and cheap ac-
commodation presented by railways.—(Hear, hear.)
This had naturally the effect, in turn, of diminishing
the expenses of the farmer, and improving his balance-
sheet at the end of the year. He certainly must say he
was surprised, on the other hand, to hear our commer-
cial prosperity denied. It was proved by documents in-
controvertibly that our commerce and manufactures were
flourishing—our workpeople well employed—that we
had a stupid revenue, nviwithstanding recent and ie.

pea'ed reductions of taxation. If this was not ccminer-
&al prosperity, he should like to know what Nehle Lords
opp.isit- c4ll .:d prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) Why, ciao
the f.ct that we had so =eh corn and flour imported
into the country was a proof of that prosperity; that
corn and flour had been consumed and paid for,
and of course a large number of persons had bene-
fited by that consumption.—(llear, hear.) If this
was the fact—if the large body of the
labouring classes were enjoying the neces-
saries and the comforts of life, he asked if it would bo
politic or possible to turn round upon the people of this
country and tell them, " All this is true, but there is
distress among the landlords and the tenantsfariners, and
to relieve these classes you must reverse all this, and
submit to burdens for their exclusive beeeflt?"—
(Hear.) They might depend upon it that the labouring
classes would look at the question in that way. But,
then, it w ss; said by Noble Lords, why do you not act
consistently with your free-trad.s principles—take off the
burdens oe land. Now, ho should like to know what
burdens were exclusively laid upon land, which were net
fairly shaved by other classee. Take the melt-tax, for
instance, would any one say that the grower of barley
paid the malt tax. But then they were told that the
rept of the malt-tax would be followed by an increased
consumption of beer, and there would consequently be
an increased demand for barley. But then is must he
reinrinbered that much of that increase would be
:applied from abroad, and also, that if the malt-tax was
removed, we should have to put on a countervailing tax,
and the agricultural classes would have to hi ar their
share of that tax. It was said that the poor-rate formed
a peculiar burden on land. Why, there was not more
than 45 per cent. of the land of England occupitd by the
agricultural interest, and many portions of that were
not rated to the relief of the poor. But ho asked Noble
Lords if they were prepared with any substitute for the
present mode of rating, and in what way fuudholders
and traders would be affected by it ? The proposal of a
national rate would, he was afraid, take away all check
to extravagant expenditure. Even under the present
system these checks were frequently not sufficient. He
thought that an alteration in the law of settlement—
and he was happy to see her Majesty's Government
had promised a measure on the subject—would be
of great value to the agricultural interest, and to the la-
bourers especially. Apart, however, from all these con-
siderations he did not despair of British agriculture.—
(Hear, hear.) The same outcry had been made when
protection was taken away from other interests. Mr.
Huskisson was accused of having ruined the silk trade.
Was that trade ruined now? Even the cotton manu-
facture itself, at one time, was declared to be injured by
foreign competition. Was British agriculture the only
interest in this country that could not stand against the
competition of the world ?—(Hear.) Were they to be told
that in this country, where they had such an abundance of
capital, of machinery, and science, with the richest mar-
ket of the world at their own doors. that they could not
compete with foreigners unless protected by taxes which
must fall on other classes of the community ?—(Cheers.)
He would remind Noble Lords opposite, also, that even
when protection was in its most palmy days that they had
the cry of distress from the agricultural interest. In 1822,
and again in 1835, and since then, on other occasions,
complaints of distress had been made. He said, in con-
clusion then, that he did not believe they could return
to these restrictive laws.—(Hear, hear.) He believed
that the interests of every one class was bound up with
the general interest of the community; and that, however
the agricultural interest might temporarily suffer, it
must, in the end, be benefited, and above all, in the face
of the advantages we had derived from that commercial
policy, ho could not believe that their Lordships, in the
face of the nation, would deliberately condemn and
abandon it.—(Cheers.)
Lord STRADBROKE (who was nearly inaudible in
the gallery) was understood to express his surprise that
the distress which had been admitted in the Speech
from the Throne, had been denied by Noble Lords in
their speeches that night. Speaking for his own
county, Suffolk, he could- state that there never
had been greater distress than there now was
in that county. The riot at Barham workhouse, where
the guardians were compelled to admit 134 able-
bodied paupers into the house, was only one of the
melancholy proofs of this fact. There was a decided in-
crease of pauperism, and he had also received returns
from the masters of galls, which showed an increase of
crime. In the year 1847,
before the free-trade system,
the number of persons in the county gaol, on the 17,11
of February, was 90. On the same day of the year 1850
it was 139, and in 1851, 180.—(Hear, hear.) In the
Ipswich House of Correction, taking the three years
before the free-trade measures, the returns were, in
1846, 90; in 1847, 101; and in 1848, 86; giving an
avenge of 92 1-3, whereas in 1849 the return was 126;
in 1850, 130; and in 1851, 180; giving an average of
148.—(Hear, hear.) In the Beceles House of Correction
the number of prisoners, on the 17th of February, 1846,
was 22, on the same day in 1851 it was 41, or nearly
double, They had heard much of the competition for
farms. The only competition he knew of was a compe-
tition to get them at lower rents.—(Hear.) He said that
before depriving them of protection, equitable arrange-
ments should have been made. The land was the
basis on which the institutions of the country rested. It
had to support an Established Church, which cost
8,000,000/. a-year. It had to support the poor, at an ex-
pense of six or seven millions a year more. When they
talked of the property of the country supporting the
poverty of the country, they ought to do justice to the
holders of that property, and he did hope that her Ma-
jesty's Government would reconsider the subject, with a
view of granting relief to an interest they admitted to be
suffering under distress.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said that when Noble
Lords opposite advocated free trade, they, and the late
Sir R. Peel also, bad stated that less than 545. a quarter
would not be a remunerating price to the British farmer;
but the price at the present moment was only 3,75.
a quarter. The difference between 545. and 375. a
quarter showed, he thought very clearly, that the whole
rental of the country was at this moment lost by the change.
He bad no hesitation in saying that agriculture had
been going back gradually ever since those changes were
made, Ho had seen in many districts the wheat mown
instead of being cut as usual, and he believed that the
wheat crop was less, by two millions of quarters, than it
would have been under protection. They -were told to
employ more capital. In his own county more capital
had been employed in drainage and improvements than
he had ever known before, and yet he never knew so
much destitution or such an excess of crime. That state
of things existed in every county in England, and if
they persevered in the system which produced it, they
would bring the agricultural interest not only into a
state of great embarrassment, but of great contempt;
but it was not to be expected that the great body of
agriculturists would sit down and see their interests en-
tirely destroyed without making a strong remonstrance
and appeal to the country. They would, he was quite sure,
have the feeling of England with them, and with such sup-
port, and such a case as theirs, they should not be afraid
to meet the manufacturing body of the country on the
question.—(bear, hear.) The principle of tree trade
he did not deny, so far as its benefits extended and ap-
plied to foreign markets; but when it came to be regarded
in relation to its bearing on the home markets of this
country, he denied its alleged advantage. The Govern-
ment had brought the landed interest of this country
into great distress by their policy, and much of the
blame of the sufferings of that class was attributable to
the course pursued by her Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear.)
The Earl of MALMESBUItY said the question was,
whether the agricultural iuterest was realty in distress
or not ; and the next question was, whether the Go-
vernment was justified in neglecting that part of the
"immunity, arid not bringing forward those measures
which were calculated for their relief. But a fort-
night ago, it was confessed in her Majesty's Speech
that the agricultural interest was in a state of distress.
Since the Speech from the Throne, events had taken
place in the other House to which he thought he had a
right to refer. Opinious were expressed, and impressions
were endeavoured to be made in contradiction of the
opinions expressed in the Royal Speech. He might al-
lude to the division which lately took place in the other
House of Parliament, and he believed he was right in
saying that it was the opinion of a large body of the
people of the country, and of this metropolis, that were
it not for the extraneous support which her Majesty's
Government received on that occasion they would have
been in a minority.—(Hear, hear.) He could not but al-
lude to the manner in which the Right Hon. Baronet, the
Member for Ripon, rushed in, when he saw them in
difficulty, to save them.--(Hear, and laughter, increased
by the attention of the House being directed to Sir
James Graham, who was seated in the commoners'
gallery, and looking down at and listening to the Noble
Earl.) Yes, the Right Hon. Baronet, seeing her Ma-
jesty's Ministers in difficulty, rushed in to the rescue,
and in a speech of great ability and groat talent, saved
them. The Right Hon. Baronet had, however, in that
speech said that the alleged distress of the agricultural
interest was very doubtful, notwithstanding that in the
Speech from the Throne that distress had been admitted.
The Right Hon. Baronet was reported to have said, that
in his own county, the county of Northumberland, he
was without an acre of land unlet which be wished to let,
and that he had not for five years changed any of his
tenants.—(Hear, hear.) But the Right Honourable
Baronet did not tell his audience how much he had laid
oat in improving his land.„He (the Earl of Malmesbury)
had, however, heard from other sources that the Right
Hon. Baronet had laid out a considerable amount
in the improvement of his estates. The question was not
what was the state of this man's property or that, but
rather what was the state of England and Wales, and
Scotland and Ireland? He (the Earl of Malmesbury)
knew an estate that let at 3,000/. a year before the repeal
of the corn-law, but that estate did not now let for
more than 2,2001. per annum.—(llear, hear.) The
owner of the farm had then taken it into his own hands,
and spent a considerable amount in improving it. Being
a man of spirit and great industry, he was not to be
alarmed at the discouraging aspect of things. Time
went on and prices did not rise; on the contrary, and ho
(the Earl of Malmesbury) was told that in 1850, after
considerable outlay, he had been obliged to let the farm
for 1,700/., parts of it at a variable rent. The Noble
Earl here read a letter from a etarelpondent, stating
that for a farm for which he was in the habit of receiving
6001. a year rent, he now only received 4501., and that
for another which he received 700/. a year rent for, he
now only received 530/., although he had incurred much
expense in liming and draining it, the reduction being 20
per cent. He would not mention names, but the writer
remarked, that the reductions in the value of farms
seemed oddly enough to have`fallen more on the Free-
traders than the Protectioni-sts. He should not dwell
further on the statements put forth in that letter; but
he should say a few words of his own case. His own
estate was, at that moment, worth something like 20 per
cent. less than it was before the repeal of the corn. laws.
It was not " a dream of theirs," they prophesied it; it
was not, he regretted, a dream, although it might
be so to Noble Lords opposite. The Government were
responsible for the evils, and they wore bound to
do ioluethiog to obviate the distress front which the

landed interest suffered. He did not expect that they
would restore protection ; but they were bound to do
something to alleviate the sufferings of the landed in-
terest.—e Hear, ;Isar.) They had an opportunity on the
previous night to do something, but they did not avail
themselves of it. Ile would not say anything harsh ;
but he must say that the proposal of the Chaneeller of
the Exchequer to take the duty off seed as a means of
relief to the agricultural interest was an insult to tho
country.—(Herr, hear.) The relief also offered, by
transferring the cost of county lunatic asylums from the
county rates to the consolidated fund, was scarcely a
concession to the landed interest, seeing that one-half
of the consolidated fund was contributed by the agri-
culturists.—(Hear, hear.) It was stated in
another place that the poor wore not sup-
ported more than 7-12ths by the agricultu-
rists ; but it did not matter whether the stgri-
culturists did not support more than 7-12ths of
the poor. The Noble Earl then took a review of the
prices ranging over a period of thirteen years, with a
view of showing that tee public were greater gainers
under protectiou than under the present systeM. This
country, he contended. was not in a condition to com-
pete with France in the production of corn since protec-
tion was withdrawn. Its 1843, 1,100,000 quarters of
corn hai been imported into this country under free
trade, and last year the quantity amounted to nearly
2,000,000 of money. Conceive 2,000,000 of money
going from England to France for corn. He asked if
such a system, and such an amount of money abstracted
from British fanning interest, did not affect the wheat-
growing counties of Sussex and Devon. Ho must again
tell her Majesty's Government, that from the moment
they forzook their former policy the country had suffered.
The Whigs were at one time as much Protectionists as
the party to which he belonged, and the'only difference
between the two parties on the question of a protective
duty on corn was as to the details. If they had arrested
the progress of the House by preventing it from sweep-
ing away all duties, and put on those duties they had
formerly proposed, he believed they might have come
into office with a character of dignity, and indeed far
more of character than they had now attached to them-
selves, and to deserve the approbation of an important
body of the people, from whom they were now dis-
severed. They did not, however, do that, they forgot
the great principle of import duties; they rushed into
office over the bodies of their discomfited opponents, and
the day of retribution for them had now, he believed,
arrived.—(Hear, hear.) The first ray of admitted dis-
tress originated in the Speech from the Throne, and it
was to that admitted distress he left them to their own
condemnation.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM (who at intervalsevas very in-
audible in the gallery) said, there were some things that
had fallen from the Noble Earl who had just sat down
in which he entirely concurred. He entirely concurred
with the Noble Earl in thinking that it weatbe duty of
those who occupied seats in the Executive Government
to propose remedies for the evils they thought to exist.
The Noble Earl had referred to that partiof her Ma-
jesty's Speech in which she now, for the ,first time,
acknowledged the distress of the agricultural interest.
He was inclined to think that there was some over-
statement in that part of her Majesty's Speech.
—(Hear, hear.) He did Rot intend to enter into
any dispute as to the statements that had fallen from
his Noble Friend opposite, nor as to thOse that had
fallen from the Noble Earl—who bad just sat down, but
ho believed that these distresses were partial, and might
be accounted for by peculiar circumstances, and that if
the Government were to attempt a remedy of partial
distress and partial inconvenience by any general law,
it would be a remedy that would be entirely inapplicable
to the case with which they had to do. The Noble Lord
who had just sat down had advanced some propositions
in which ho agreed, whilst there were others in which he
did not concur, or if be did so it was with great regret.
He had stated that they must not look to particular
prices, but to the average price over the whole country.
They knew, however, that the average price was
greatly affected by the character of the parti-
cular parcels or quantities of corn sold in'the mar-
ket.—(Hear, hear.) At the present moment,Cven in the
county of Cambridge, good wheat was now fetching a
price of not less in some cases than 425. 4d. per quarter.
He did not wish the House to take his (the Noble
Lord's) statement; but as the Noble Lord had referred
to papers, he might be allowed to do the same in reply.
He had not the prices in the market town of Cambridge
itself, but he understood that on last Satprday, which
was market day, good wheat was selling at 423. 4d. The
first place he should mention, quoting the, highest and
lowest prices, in illustration of his statemeet, was that of
St. Ives, where he understood the present price of the
best corn was 38s. per quarter. At Wisbeach, the
highest price was 365. 6d., the lowest 243. 4d. This was
the statement of one person, while the statement, of an-
other made the highest price 415., and the lowest 245.
At Boston, Spalding, and Peterborough, the prices were
respectively 39e., 425., and 415., while the tower prices
were as low as 245., 255., and 235., whilst the highest had
been as high as 445. 4d. He apprehended that the real
cause of the distress that prevailed in the counties
of Cambridge and Lincoln arose entirely front the bad
condition of the wheats, and that it was to these they
must look as an illustration of the distresses that pre-
vailed in those counties.—(Hear.) But what was it, he
would ask, his Noble Friends intended to do ?—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Earl who had just left the House
stated, and he was willing in a certain degree to agree
with him, that it was the duty of the Executive Go-
vernment, in a case of this kind, to take measures
for the relief of existing distress ; but the Noble
Lords on the opposite side must allow him to say,
that when they brought forward a motion, and raised
a discussion on a subject of this description, they
ought at least to give some idea or indication of what
the measure was they intended to bring in. The
Noble Lord who spoke first had ventured to indicate,
however, that he proposed in some degree to go hack
to restriction. It was to be hoped that this was not
to be the caw, for he (the Noble Earl) was of opinion
that to go back to restriction would only be in a
double sense to retrograde. If his Npble Friend
could detach himself from the ranktoof protec-
tion, and if ho raised his own standard, hejprould com-
mand a mighty and influential body, and if he would en-
deavour to impress on her Majesty's Ministers the re-
peal of the tax to which he had alluded; he would be
happy to give him his best support, hems° be consi-
dered that it was one of the most injurious Of taxes. It
would have been as well it' his Noble Friend had endea-
voured to administer some more relief to the agricultural
interest. He did not at all agree that it was desirable
to press on the Consolidated Fund.
Fie believed that all
the dudes that fell on the community were better per-
formed by local than they could be by e
general adminis-
tration, and he could not help referring to what seemed
to be an idea floating in the mind of the, Noble Lord
who spoke last, and which seemed also to-pervade the
mind of his Noble Kinsman—he alluded to the throwing
relief for the poor on the Consolidated Fund! He
warned the Noble Lords against any measure of the
kind. They might depend on it that it mould lead to a
most extravagant administration of whatever funds were
was sure that
for the maintenance of the poor that it was in the
wapowera difficulto f
administration
s ttr o a t icoon nc
now,ei v n
c a.—cl(li bea ir' hear.) It
those who were engaged with him in the administration
of the Poor-law knew how much less care was bestowed
on that class of cases which were called establishment
cases than on those which belonged to , a particular
parish. If these cases, instead of falling en the union at
large, were to fall on the nation at large, he could hardly
conceive a c ite in which there would boa more lavish
expenditure of public money.—(Heat.) As regarded the
difficulties and distresses that now existed; he believed the
cases were rare in which the distresses of the tenant
could not be met by fairness on the part of the landlord.
—(Hear.) The question was really one'of rent. Indeed
all these questions of protection were questions of rent,
and it was quite as possible to adjust the rent on there
matters as in any other. Calculate prices, and it was
as easy to calculate the rent for 40s. as Air 60s , and for
60s. as 80s., and, to go to the end of the"scale, for 30s.
as for 40s.—(Hear, hear.) Experience proves that in
currying out these experimental matters none of them
succeeded. They never had succeeded under previous
every one of the
pl artevvsi
ooursprevious el
axnpde roiwoineenrtsa.n
and
Uthned elandvaluer, the men
who let the farm,
the law. Under
hadwho allto tools
beent
the first law they were led to expect the price at 80s. per
hedefalurmde,danbdy Ithhee
character
rer of
quarter; under another they were led to expect a price
at 635., under another, a price at .565., and under another
at 535.; and under the operation of all these laws, agri-
cultural distress existed, as if to prove that it was be-
yond the power of man to regulate prices in such a
manner as would be satisfactory to the different classes
of the community. With respect to France, they were
aware that that country was protected as
much as the agricultural interest in this country was
ever protected under the most stringent of its protective
laws.—(Hear.) What was the price ©f wheat now in
France? It was something like 3s. 6d. per bushel—no
very great encouragement to those who a ere desirous of
trying the experiment of protection. No doubt a very
large quantity of corn had been imported in the shape of
flour. He did not at all regret the Importation of flour.
He believed, and he told the Noble Lords opposite who
were no doubt aware that the machinery for themanu-
facture of flour in France, and the processes connected
with it, in that country, were conducted much more
skilfully and effectually than they were in England,—
(Hear.) Many believed that the importation of thin
French flour into England would induce the Eng-
lish millers to make such improvements in the
manufacture of flour, so as to enable them to get a
higher price than was now obtained for French flour.
There was no doubt that would be the case, and if there
were a preper competition between the English and the
French grower, and the English and the French miller,
he had so much confidence in the energy of Ns own
countrymen that he believed they would be able to meet
the competition of a foreign country. With respect to
the burthens on the French farmer, he happened to be
in possession of some papers issued d uring the Admi-
nistration of his Noble Friend, and from these he could
assure him that the local taxation of a French commune
or department was far higher than the• taxation of an
English cr,uuty. It their Lordships would compare
the local taxation of a French depattrastut with that of
an English county, which he (the Noble Earl) bad had
an opportunity of doing from the report of the visit-
ing magistrates or finance ccmmittee of Southampton,
it appeared that the whole local taxation of
a French department amounted to more than the Iccal
county taxation of S enhampton. The local ti tetation of the
latter amounted to 11p. per bead of the whole '
,popu.a-
tion, while the local taxation of a French e'epaetment,
which corresponded with an English county, amounted
to Is. 11d.—(Hear, hear.) Then, Lignite if t hey took
into consideration what was the relative area, or capa-
city of an English county, as compared with w French
department, there really was no comparison, and from
this be thought they might satisfy themselves that there
was no reason for restriction, on the ground of the Log-
lish farmer being locally more highly taxes l than the
Freueb.—(Rear, hear.) After all, the quest sou really

The t
Feb. 18.
otISP., OF LORDS, -a
on
the Woolsack
short) °Rn OrIA.XCELLOU took his seat
L 0 Y after Five o'clock.
ugly signed
141,rd STAXLEY presented a petition, numerously the imposi-
tis,""°wners to the county of Devon, prayingo
i sera ss, for a r -'
ii.,(4. itePort duties on agricultural produce and other
, rati,,.. evision of the
navigation
-laws, The liu the laws regulating the .
currency.
and for an al-
tit oitahrglorls of LA.NSDOWNE laid several papers on the
huse'
two petitions against.
Paps' Duke of RICHAIOND presented .
ion of Jews into
l'kriia,..aggression, one against the admission
agricultural distress.
u'enr, and several complaining of ,
TE, ,BTATE OF THE LANDED INTEREST.
from
vori,e 41 of lIARDWICKE presented 40
petitionsdistress. It
44418 landowners complaining of agricultural
composed
almost
contended that because this
House
was
ill fitted
to eleittsirely of landed proprietors they were
1, consider the
for that
subject. He considered that
the
et/ reason well fitted for
col:l4d_ . they were peculiarly
*eitshjation of this subject, inasmuch as . prosperity
theand
depended upon
tll% Illatinsg this country and its constitution
When the motion
for the
.., tenance of the landed interest.
brought forward they
Were toZPeal of the corn-laws was
hroa
importation of foreign corn,
IN that'll there would be no great
ko th . yy repealin-
g those laws they woul , .
d without damage
est..ettir nt
p,„q inerests, be getting rid of an obnoxious impost, the
exc to the
they'' Plello%.°,of which might, in times of scarcity,
that, in fact,
- this co' t the landowners-
-15 would
be untry against .
ces had
g Those assuran . .
(1)1)114 flls. • glvingll uP ollothind it that the condition
41i, iltt 'l°l:C le°l°;B;erallYehwadald improved,am and was
epwro,ostlydroasusi,t
-at vte aralect generally
was distressed,
and
h had been
tivilth: the foundation for the assurance which
merely tempo-
tail, Tire that this depression would be
t declared that
itlhnli "°...ic Petitions which he had to present
one of dis-
-148. tla- ' all persons connected with land was.
Ithitiul-.e should quote, in proof of he statements
this'
t detailing the
,tSte of e.,444 received from several p9rsounist,der
which the
"ottrlo4•l4'arnaand approachintg
ldestitution
C mbridgeshire
_atnde
ertilleiltlils iieß luallou°cereadPiearnsdothe state of destitutionof h
this
ado al labourers% but he laboured under_
was
oot
these statements he
.i.„,t 10ge,.._ that in quoting
ofhis informants. The
tp`ile cozy to give the namesea _
d at great length, ex.
tlit,l4frorn ~ ti.len proceeded. to r
had received, describing
14' laistrivarious letters which he
Lincolnshire as being
bootata „°,14 In Cambridgeshire and.
the representa
,of ,'L great distress. In spite of
there was a
riot, •ae encouraging state of the poor,
They were
m"le I,,nlahealthy state of the agriculturists.,
ZilitZikh9Ported Put of the capital instead of the profitswhich
ieed4 an land. There was one argument
state and
*mklitZtPecial notice, namely, the prosperous
That
1/44,1•-", °f one class w' ould react upon another.
atlitiai htnallY th fact; but now, when one• fourth of the
"It 'rtOdbe e
la, ssite• e con.,umed was
harvest was
C'tli ~,11,ot the case. Before, when the
not so
"It. °l"ttee relieved *the distress, but that was .
h. The
• of wheat ina-
Odtt"? quantity and average price
show the dis•
A. frNg the last three years would
18kla s
agriculture. In
m 'ect it tproduce upon
was
147°
IE4I
"8
'wheat flour imported
1849
th. ,84, quantity of _
dper quarter. In
'l: tilitti'tiquayters, at 58s. 6
445.
v,P4 ~tY 'reported was 4,822,000 quarters, at
imported
ikile'calors3rBter; and in 185040 s quantitytheeper
quarter. The
tilt:l44 4tthisd quarters
ttelf themselves saetiv es obliged to us for
dhatvhienigr
...'
a el"luhl their agriculture beyon .. .
krtilt nce t• 3to vast
quantities of their im
st, *hi,
..p tons. The
afforded a striking in-
IC% of
the the returns showed,
ivmlat,„, Way in which the Americans said we had
0%71 their markets. Tnere. werepoints
other in
our present sys-
44:iser le the effect upon America 9
aspossible for
ift
ellenertilly known,
that was, it_ 7
I-. country, and
11;4 to leans to supply wheat to
1Y:to; in this way:
eh seta„e,se by it.—(llear, hear.)
.
in ballast, the
mete TS u•sed to sail to this country
instead of ballast
111:e10,,,er which was great, but now,
ksiteijetl With corn. They could, therefore, afford to
s described
I, t i ttl)er than they bought it. This wa ,
krfterpoi Mail -
The Americans
!to theit „, of Jan. 2, 1850..
d into this country
Vs BeulnX the Corn so introduLe
for in America.
~.1)
_quarter leas than they bought it.
for less
It; Nee over
were selling corn
3, th... _
boons, and
hoar.) Had such a
Of tr the ght it.—(Hear,._
h before?—(Hoar.)
ki Net digs ever been met with
agriculture
tithily ; told that they must not carry on
leading
organ
Itl," D..° "w• They were told by a
...
—, .
It, %)re°ll that they must grow gar den sqltl
any(r
lietoir>P they ever hear such r.o.bsbhisthe? Did
h garden?
q +akin tver make anythi"g Ul
the cultivation
th .1111 e very attempt to introduce)
phew 11'; Crop would be attended with diffi-
the minds
tkeo It step
Was not ca'Y totarn
of crops.
k,l"ra ttCy rhi,e any other description x
for instance,
ki. hilidetnPted the cultivation ofTflhae farmers would
) 4holp ' bare great difficulty._
It was easy to
Nlihy
ctita'!loW to raise this c.ol':
else?
But they
S: Nil? t, Yon grow something
How did they
ilt that
they them grow many things.tehacco? The answer
t1);(441 will hettovueldfenreoit
foreign tobacco
in upon youe.lt.
tßutax
r:tletl titil,,el know that?g Then, again,' tithaea mostm op-
ki:ite trill them great difficulties. I.
st to 0 a....alear, hear.) They had 3
whitherto been
Os. It was
II ado
t4' It good description of barley at
been able
kplicll it
fttelinferior sort, but they had. alwaysasworthless.
kteY .of r 80alething„ This year
it
w wholly dis•
to,:ttl, whitl:eond-rate quality had been
f depression
i kin. htty„e2 even in the present state o
it
was
1 lot ate „ -retched 6s
or 7s. a quarter. But
could
1 ettillta Itkilit state Of agricultural depression.
came
t 10; ecans,, •
chief supplies
. te atitle,
,It was said that the
so t4ta Which country was not able long to pro-
that it might be
* ki4o that ell"--(liear ) lie suspected
to re i Which
• grain from France
for
onc but Would get no
At
411. th In they would get p e Y
I nt of flour.
I Gf.. ere to ' • ted with a hundred
je1,„...;0ne Was a steam-mill erec ,
Nee",. rottolt, Prepared especially for grindingb
for the
a strong
k _111,0%14, they That seemed to him to 0
ilit"t fr"eY had the 'prospect Wore them.
of re-
mlN "° erg
lerat ep d . supply. Tile general and
Illitllittcter bu°resr a 81;7 eYen the, agricultural
er.
~Nti(tr,' vtl/411st1„ -t inter:stass, was nwot favourable to the former.
the -to p ' talus of rho Talth of the United Kingdom
0.
01 Ptopsstirliatnent
so ° ''''
years ago. The total val u 0 0
.t.
1,;(44at ti,'Y Of the sepmeai intr,rests was 450,000,0
was
14<1,0,01) "i° yelii - 21.
f 4c
gricu I turd property
sli4r rallettirt)A-„s tYrern the° - ar
40 to 1851, the vett'?
no!
"le km NC '44 incr 3,
etal to 11,406,000/. TheY hd
km
the r -e1•1 that the- should improve
Nilvi°° of Ph°Puslll°n • Yio this country
„.0111ti ... 1.,,. t..e several interests .
stand? It
Ito, not he"ew, how did the agriculturists a
~
phtlll olds) D9t,had estl if they asserts d that gri
l'
4 ti:les 7,1 had fallen value 10 per cent.. Thatease
Ihtti4l44llf.„:°oll3, as compared with the
.inor
the
to Of -,,Uriur. a decrease in
ko 0 0
), ~ , It?tin,,, 6 wealth,
eled yew •-„.•4ltural property to .
4 , 1
the amount of
might be
10 st had the Was that fair? Where,
Itne nu-
,' :' Th ''4l Wealth goo© to? It had go
as
•ulao;4lltee letr exports had not so much improvedarisonwith
ere I. 3? elltetl, a
Iti etk ispa. Take a would appear by a comt)
In 1815 there
10 411144 cotton, for instance.
Fro h. the,. 68,230 000 yards of manufactrute
_.
-of.. 'q lIP% red cotton.
d That
Le th -•e 74,000,000 yards e:To
America.
dad the ey receiv d provisions from , ,_l.
, ye,, e
yii apedß 1842 to 1846 the average
number' .
h 4 te
W - Therefore, with all
o,Bth clone as 34,135,000.
oi,lortkl th ' the
were still ver much
behind. Now,
-5t5,,,4 fl:„ °Y been doingin Europe? If they took the
oar 'la 4, .
tpr )red4 II 44
thma, Holland, Belgium, ,
and France, as
Iti'
tl'6l 1 iran r- t those countries up to the
44,,,, km then I;ooktsdlant°h returns for the follow-
IttN
Yilt the then
eld note be favourable to the
Itliillit•lsa. - heref Weil
' h all they had done, they
th, 4 4,1 ety „.._ . behindit r
,Y
I.tillopt.. a re„7'"ucb . Ihey were told that there
nothing of
res° p Th„-iPt°eit • but there had been
44 ' and - Rain Y'
the part of the fo-
top, ° to dolt ~ the to 8 had all been on
asked, what did they
ell'i,ll(leit,, WI; °2_,r Tru. He
their sys-
'ha 'll4l ''Y at out?
, uiu th
ey not go on with .
tli% NAY the„ If they carried out their prieci-
(Hear, hear.)
he ° v tot .7 could not get a revenue.—
,y
4,30
toy het Yesterday showed that •
more strong'
f a
ahrits dos eptti
hhad ever seen. The imposition o
'4O Nes -"et likely to satisfy the country. It would
kg it Iv that
tit . Ith at there should be some decided mode of
°lt IN the
0 14a‘ realm • an& There were five classes .
of per-
-44, '',1,41, -mh 1/1 land.
the
The landlord, the occupier,
41't the 'l4, tr-(1 Pr'or, mid the Chancellor of the Ezche-
4Btet last.-eepiipta of all these bed been reducedee ox-
\tierhNioti ai,•,°,414 was coming down—the occupier
pwas
th,„,d,-i,st.st to destitution—the tithe-owner
k4t ‘lO '" wages of labour were reduced; and
14, ear' lva
~._
thfti 44r; isear.jacT..anded the same amount of revenue.
1,,,,'11 ell p; Ile thou ht it was easy them to
for
41. tut-01° ' and re regs nt the prosperous state of
°ler .111 t p e
11/11otii. osiee,, saerest, as any one might do who was g
'4t 411 v 4tO au
n a fabric
diti ofd ado,o Ppose he was looking p
u the outside.
'lollt 4 ,e& but that was only on
, •tit the true
con-
fy ; presentationre of the state and
"kt 'Anl",rieol i •
se, -1114 0n,,,, - tura. interest which
hp'lllto iueepittt'7,°Beed interest. The owner wasthaitiVjusl
th:' hia 04Ild was not enabled to
earn
n to make
`yard r°oil, "cY which he was compelled
h his '4tAlsrsi
pc' pro ibis ILLE complimented the Noble Lord
-Ptt Dh • BPeeeli
had alluded to
th ktio, eeies , • The Noble Lord
),.4kh,q of th,, Which had been indu'ged
in as to the
doubt,
tv,,,, .th,t
there would be an Intnediate reduction ot
St ith ~ if t °all %hop here
4 1, be anything
more difficult to tell
%le "° a ' ti 3 tO.
article
ft, tpt , t oh„ se what the price of any
'tr Meet; " given tinie.--(Hear hear.) He had
Nlii kis , ‘°ll Of I, h • 1. • ' indulged in that
)ot, Voti wOuld I. rrOp ecies being
1, °hit ott ht, have the effect of throwing land out of !
"soot satte ‘i abourers out of employment But
"so e, 1,
1•
• 4 et.." madep °tit last ear t thsatisfaction of the 1
le sipi arna Y 0. e
Ih o. (led %. open the subject that the labourer
,t) ,•vinit , ' the were told bY NblL -d that that
It) "444 43
were told
• ' e e e.
althat if
th. NA, ..._ . circumstances, an
-'4telat yr BUt months they would sea a
little of Wuga,.....(Eittlir, hear')

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 19, 1851.

was, what did their Lordships propose to do?—(Hear.
hear.) Did they propose to destroy agriculture? Did
they mean to propose a high fixed duty? If they did
not propose a duty that would exclude foreign corn,
they did not protect. He did not exactly under-
stand what would bo the nature of the duty
which the Noble Lords opposite proposed, but he con-
cluded, from the speeches which they had made, that
they would propose some. What, therefore, would be
the character of that duty? Would it be a low duty for
the purpose? If it was a low duty for the purpose of
revenue, then they would not exclude, and if they did
not exclude they could not protect. If, on the contrary,
they imposed such a high duty 83 would ensure pro-
tection and exclude foreign corn, then they would have
an answer for proposing a duty that would raise the price
of food of the whole population of the country, and that
he believed was an experiment which neither the Noble
Lord nor his Proteetioni-4 supporters were prepared to
attempt or to maintain.—(Hear, bear.) He did not be-
lieve, knowing what the Noble Earl was, and how ho was
conne2ted, and when he had submitted before his eyes, as
he must have whenever he went into his own county, the
state of things there—he did not believe that he would
undertake the task of imposing the duty of eight
:hillings per quarter on foreign corn, that eight
shillings per quarter to be paid by the inhabitants,
in the shape of enhanced prices of food.—(Hear.) He
had too much confidence in the Noble Lord to suppose
that he bed any idea of proposing such a tax. His be-
lief was that, whatever course might have been taken in
another House, that they should not have any proposal
wade for a protecting duty on foreign corn; fur he be-
lieved, Irons what he had collected from reading the opi-
nions of leading persons in another place, it was their
opinion that it would be vain to make such an attempt.
Ho did not believe that his Noble Friends opposite were
prepared to try this experiment before the assembled
people of England, and he had no faith in any such
attempt were it made. However it might have struck
the Noble Lord who spoke last, that his Noble Friends
would be very glad to retrace their steps, he (the Noble
Earl) had no desire that their steps should be retraced.
He looked with confidence to the issue of the delibera-
tions of this session of Parliament, believing that what-
ever might be the result to arise on other questions, the
decision on this one would be certain. He did not be-
lieve that if the result of the discussion should be to re-
place his Noble Friend, who now sat near him, by the
Noble Lord on the other side of the House—he did not
believe that even in that event he should see the experi-
ment tried of an appeal to the people of England. On
the question of whether prices were to be raised or not,
he had no expectation of such an issue being joined.
Whatever other questions might arise or be determined,
he looked with perfect confidence to this—that the
present question is not one on which Noble Lords op-
posite would supplant those who now held the reins of
government.
Their Lordships then adjourned at Half-past
,Nine
o'clock.