The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-25 00:00:00

COERCION BILL, IRELAND.

Colonel PE RC E VAL begged to ask the right
hon. Secretary for Ireland, when he intended to lay
the documents upon which he intended to move for a
renewal of the Coercion Bill upon the table of the
house ?

Mr. L Y TTLE TON said the papers would be laid
upon the table before any discussion would take place.

Mr. SHAWE wished to know if the bill about to
be introduced was the same as that of last session.

Mr. LYTTLETON did not think that a proper
question, and it was one upon which he did not think
it his duty to give any information. (Hear, hear).
. .

Mr. O'REILLY wished to know whether it was
the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to put an end
to any meetings, if those meetings are calcu-
lated to disturb the public peace. They had.lately
heard of meetings in the north of Ireland, which,
from all they knew of that part of the country,
were calculated to disturb the public peace,
Mr. FINN objected to any meeting being put down
either in the north or south of Ireland. ( Cries of "Oh,
oh !")
Mr. LITTLETON said the question was, whether
it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to
administer the laws equally and impartially. He
thought such a question was quite unnecessary to an-
swer. ( Hear.)
Mr. STANLEY said he had understood the hon.
member for Cork had taken upon himself to state that
he (Mr. Stanley) had taken some part in the Dun-
garvon election. He assured the house that such an
assertion was utterly without foundation.
Mr. O'C ONNELL said he was not in :the house
at the time the discussion was going on, but he
thought there was nothing in the documents referred
to that could justify the introduction of the right hon.
gentleman's name.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee
on the Highways Bill. Mr. Pryme in the chair.
The bill was proceeding through committee when
we left the house.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 24.
EAST INDIA PRODUCE.

Mr. ENV ART then rose to move a resolution,
" that the rates of duty imposed on articles, the pro-
duce of our eastern possessions, ought, with the least
possible delay, to be reduced to an equality with the
rates levied on articles the produce of the other pos-
sessions of Great Britain." The principal articles on
which those duties were levied were sugar, coffee,
pepper and pimento, tobacco, rum, and timber. With
regard to sugar, on that brought from the East
Indies was charged with a duty of 325. per cwt.,
while that from the western colonies was only charged
245. per cwt. Was not this a gross violation of jus-
tice ? The operation of this tax acted most mis-
chievously on the sugar refineries of this country, and
the consequence was, that this branch of trade was
leaving our shores, and going to countries where it
was more favoured. The next article was coffee.
Coffee from the West Indies was charged 6d. per lb.,
while that from the East Indies was 9d. per lb. With
regard to tobacco, it paid 3s. per lb., while the tobacco
of the North American Colonies only paid 2s. 9d.
Pepper and pimento from the West Indies paid only
sd. per lb. of duty, while that from the East Indies
paid Is. Since the last reduction in the rate of
duty, the consumption had greatly increased. The
duty was formerly 2s. 6d. per lb.; it was now only
1 s., and the increase in consumption exceeded the
proportion of the reduction. That was a reason why
the duties should be further reduced. The same ap-
plied to the article of rice, the consumption of which
had greatly increased since the reduction of the duty.
The last article to which he would allude was ruin,
which, from the West India colonies, was charged 9s.
per gallon of duty, while that from the East Indies
was charged no less than 15s. This was such a marked
and glaring injustice that it ought to be the first to be
redressed. He knew well that those who advocated
the cause of the West India proprietors would now
appeal to the compassion of the house, as they had
formerly done ; but he (Mr. Ewart) thought it was
-time for them to be silent, now that Parliament, in a
fit of unexampled generosity, had given them twenty
millions of money. He hoped this monopoly would
be no longer tolerated. He trusted that the govern-
ment would take the subject under consideration dur-
ing the recess, and at once do away with the monstrous
injustice of these discriminating duties. The hon.
member concluded by moving the resolution which he
had previously read.
Mr. O'C ONNE L L then rose and said that such an
important motion should not be discussed with so thin
an attendance of members, and moved that the house
be counted. _

..,.
The house was accordingly counted, and, 40 mem.
bers not being present, adjourned at seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 24.
The house met shortly after four o'clock.
ESTABLISHED CHURCH.

Petitions in support of the Established Church were
presented from parishes in Cumberland and North-
ampton, by the Bishop of DURHAM ; from Plympton

and ether places in Devon, by Lord Rout ; and from
places in Warwick, by the Duke of WELLINGTON.
COUNT\ RATES.

The Make of RICHMOND, as chairman of the
CoVrity Rate Committee, laid upon their lordships'
table the first report of the committee, which was
ordered to be printed.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition
from Sir Harcourt Lees against the claim o 1 the bis,
I senters, and in favour of the Established Chtireti and
I a similar petition from a etergyriran in the West Riding
of Yorkshire.,
`CLAIMS OF DISSENTERS.
Tire Bishop of L L AND AFF said that in presenting
petitions intrusted to him against the claims of the
Dissenters, he was anxious to explain what his opinions
were and the grounds upon which he intended to
support the prayer of the petition, and he begged
to state that he was not actuated, neither were
the petitioners actuated by any ill-feeling ,towards
the parties against whom the petition was directed.
( Rear, hear, hear.) The first ground he took was
against the admission of the bissenters to the
degrees of tlie Universities ; secondly, and which he
believed *as indisputable, that religion was an essen-
tial part of education, and that the admission of per-
sons indiscriminately, without regard to their religious
opinions, was destructive of that principle, for it was
impossible to contend, with any degree of truth,
that persons could be admitted, of 'various religions
persuasions, without abandoning that most sa-
cred branch of education—religion. ( Hear, hear.)
In his opinion it *as most desirable to make religion
A peimanent branch of education. ( Hear, hear.) He
Wished to see religion and education go hand in hand.
The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with the
right reverend prelate that nothing was more
desirable than that education and religion should go
hand in hand. No man concurred more than
he did in the course adopted by the Universi-
ties of Oxford and Cambridge, and King's Col-
lege, to admit no persons but those who belonged
to the church within their walls ; but that was no reason
why the Dissenters, a large and opulent body,
should not have a University for themselves, and
it was no reason why the London University
should be closed against Dissenters. In his opinion
the man who would say that it was unfair to found a
university for Dissenters was more fit for a Museum
than rational society. ( Laughter. )
The Bishop of LLANDAFF begged to correct the
noble and learned lord : he had never made any ob-
servation against the London University.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that over
the way ( Westminster Abbey) they ,had heard
duets and trios, but it was general in that house to
speak one at a time. As he had said before, where
parties agreed in every respect with the sentiments of
the church, he advised them to go to King's College,
but where they did not, they had surely the right of
being educated at the London University.
The Bishop of LLANDAFF was sure that the
strictures of the noble and learned lord upon the address
he had made were founded upon an inattention of the
statements he had made. He had brought no charge
whatever against the London University.
The Duke of WELLINGTON considered that
nothing could be more inconvenient than discussing
subjects of the importance of the present upon the
presentation of petitions. He should have thought
that the noble lord on the woolsack would have
extended his protection to the Universities rather than
cavil with the sentiments expressed by the right rev.
prelate.
The LORD CHANCELLOR must say, if
the noble duke had acquired logic at the Uni-
versity of Oxford (hear), he had not acquired
the faculty of attention. If the noble duke had at-
tended to what he stated, he would not have made the
observations he had done. With respect to the charge
made by the noble duke against him of raising a
debate or the presentation of petition, he had only to
say, and he was sure the noble duke was not aware of it,
that the right rev. prelate had attacked him in his own
words. He had always been a great friend to the
London University, though he was, perhaps, not so
great a man there as the noble duke was at Oxford.
He had no doubt that his presence at Oxford would
not have created a greater sensation of astonish-
ment than his Royal Highness's presence at their
meetings at the university. ( Hear, hear, andlaughter.)
He believed his Royal Highness had been invited to
attend ( Continued laughter), and although he
had not attended, he (the Lord Chancellor)
had no doubt but that the university had
had the illustrious duke's good wishes, as far at
least as his conscience would allow him. On one
occasion, however, when there was an illustrious
branch of the oyal Family , present, and when
his noble friend the Secretary of the Home Depart-
ment was present also, upon that occasion, and upon
' a former occasion, when all the subscribers
were together, he had mentioned Oxford and
Cambridge in terms of the greatest respect. He
asserted that as a fact, and that the mention was received
with applause, and that the mention of Oxford produced
not one expression of disrespect on that occasion.
But the order of things was different on the banks of
the Isis (Much laughter), such decorum was not indi-
genous to the shady retreats of the muses who haunted
that classic stream. Upon one occasion—when there
was no excuse for the hilarity of the evening, which
was not so favourable to the effusion of classic strains,
but in the morning, when the air was free from all
vapours except those of theological controversy
( Laughter) and political feeling—upon that occasion
to which he referred, unrestrained by the presence,
unawed by the grave aspects of illustrious dukes, arch-
bishops, bishops, deans, and learned doctors, an ancient,
and, he believed, a very ancient—a harmless, an in-
finitely harmless—an ancient and established practice
( Laughter) which he would be the last person to
blame, and which he would only further describe as a
peculiar and well-known, though not exceedingly
delicate mode of saluting a person, was resorted to.
(Laughter.) As certain individuals were named
in those academic retreats, the feeling which their
mention excited in those present got vent in the pecu-
liar manner he had stated (Laughter), certainly very
harmless, and moreover it was in very good company.
Perhaps a more harmless practice could not come across
a more academic assembly. He should not give his
opinion about the universities. He was not called
upon to do so, and he was resolved not to say any-
thing of them then, either well or ill. He had not
adverted to them in the manner which the noble duke
ascribed to him. The right rev. prelate made certain
observations as to the subscription of articles, which
led him to comment on them, not as against Oxford,
but as against the right rev. prelate's explanations.
All that he wished in rising was to relieve himself
from the unexpected charge, first, that it was out of
the way to debate a subject on the presentation of a
petition, whereas he was only asserting and defending
his own opinion ; and secondly, that he was endea-
vouring to pull down the universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, when all that he had said had been in fa-
vour of Cambridge and Oxford. ( Hear, hear.)
The petition was then laid upon the table.
BRITISH SOLDIERS AT MALTA.

The Earl of WINC H IL SE A presented a petition
from Captain Aitcheson, against the practice of com-
pelling soldiers to pay any respect to Roman Catholic
ceremonies in foreign countries, and also praying for
compensation for the loss of his commission by the
sentence of a courtmartial at Malta. The noble earl
went into the circumstances of this case, and said that
Captain Aitcheson and another officer were cashiered
for having refused to perform certain ceremonies of the
Roman Catholic Church. He should leave the case
entirely in the hands of his Majesty's government.
The Duke of WELLINGTON stated that the oc-
currence of which the petition complained took place
in 1823, when he (the noble duke) was Master-Ge-
neral of the Ordnance. The petitioner was not tried,
as he stated, for refusing to ring a bell in honour of the
anniversary of some saint, but for refusing to give or-
der to ring those bells. The governor of the island
had directed this ringing, and the petitioner had, on
previous occasions, obeyed similar orders given to him
by his commanding officer. The courtmartial had
been ordered by General Sir Thomas Maitland, and
the sentence had received the approbation of his Ma-
jesty. The petitioner and his brother officer were
not called upon to attend divine service, but merely
to discharge a military duty ; there was no act of the
mind. He must further observe, that if due honour
and respect were not paid by the military to the
church ceremonies in foreign countries, in some cases
there would be a positive breach of treaty, and
in others much prejudice, and perhaps unpleasant
collisions might be caused. The people in foreign
countries expected every respect to be paid to their re-
ligion, and he therefore trusted that his Majesty's
Government would not give any such directions as the
noble earl wished. He also begged them to observe,
that if the officers were allowed to recede from the
performance of their duties on the plea of conscience,
the regulations of the army would be at an end. As
to the recommendation of the noble earl, that com-
pensation should be allowed, he must oppose any such

thing, and for this reason—that even under other cir-
cumstances such a course was seldom desirable ; but
here, in the artillery service, where officers paid not
a shilling for their commissions, it would be absolutely
improper.
Earl GREY said, after the clear and matter-of-
fad statement made by the noble duke, it Would be
unnecessary for hlth to bay more than a word or two
finSwer to the noble earl who had presented the pe-
tition. The case had been under his attention, and
knowing who was at the head of the ordnance, and
who was at the head of the army, at the time when
the circumstances arose, he had no doubt in his own
mind that justice had been done ; but in consequence
of the statements made to him by the noble earl, he
had carefully looked into the case, and the result was,
that he felt more convinced than ever of the propriety
of the course which had been pursued. It appeared
plainly in evidence that there had been a gross breach
of orders, a direct act of insubordination, which called
for instant reprehension. ( frigr.9 He begged to ob-
serve that the case had not bfldn'Sfated to their lord-
ships on right grounds, for he totally denied that these
officers had been called on to participate in any religious
ceremony whatever : they were only directed to pay a
mark of honour—to obey orders which had before been
given. The noble duke had truly stated the high im-
portance in our colonies of respecting the religious
feelings of the people ; and he ( Earl Grey) perfectly
concurred in his opinion, that it would be most unde-
sirable to make any alteration in the practice as at
present established. Any departure from the rule now
observed could not but have results of the most serious
character. He felt sorry that officers who had so long
held his Majesty's commission, and, according to the no-
ble earl, meritoriously held it up to the time the present
transaction took place, should be thus situated ; but he
felt satisfied that strict justice had been meted out, and
that if their lordships interfered they would be inflict-
ing a serious blow on the necessary discipline of the
service. Under such circumstances he felt it his duty
to allow the matter to rest as it was.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA and the Duke of WEL-
LINGTON mutually explained, and the petition was or-
dered to lie upon the table.

CIVIL OFFICES PENSION BILL.
The order of the day for their lordships going into
a committee of the whole house on this bill having

been read,
Earl GREY said that as the bill had been read a
second time without any explanation being given of
its objects, he would occupy the attention of their
lordships for a couple of moments, whilst he gave an
outline of its provisions. The object of the bill was
to supersede a bill passed in 1817, which authorised
the crown to grant twenty- two pensions to certain
civil officers retirinc, from active service. The bill
before their lordships divided these officers into
classes. Those in the first class might receive pen-
sions to the amount of 3,0001. per annum, after two
years' service ; those in the second, which were the
Secretary for Ireland, and the Secretary at War,
2,0001. per annum after three years' service ; those in
the third class, the Secretaries to the Treasury and
the Admiralty, were limited to 1,5001. per annum,
after five years' service ; and those in the 4th class to
1,0001. per annum, after ten years' service, and in-
cluded such officers as the clerk of the Ordnance, and
Under Secretary of State—making in the whole a
sum of 42,000/., which effected a saving on the former
bill of 9,000/. per annum. I,lFrotri arrangements which
were making, however, he had a confident anticipation
that they would be enabled very materially still further
to increase the amount of reductions.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that the bill
of 1817 had been greatly, and very unjustly abused,
for its principle was good, and it had been found to
work well for the public service. Any one, too, that
would read its preamble, would find that the bill then
before their lordships was unfair in its principle; for
there was, in fact, a description of bargain at present
existing in respect to the 22 pensions granted under
the old act. He contended that the pensions to be
granted under the present bill would be wholly in-
adequate in amount, inasmuch as no persons would be
induced to take office, more especially when, as was
now found to be the case, it was so difficult to get into
the House of Commons a second time. There would
be no inducement, as before, to barristers of rising
character to abandon their profession, or for men of
small fortune to aspire to the service of the crown.
Now, although the service of the crown in England
was certainly a service of honour, yet still a man who
had entered into that service, and who had remained
in it for some years, ought not to be left at the end of
that period in the same situation with respect to for-
tune, as if he had done no service at all. This was
the {`more to be deprecated, considering the course
which had been recently -pursued by the /louse of
Commons, not merely of recommending individualssto
the crown for reward, but of actually invading the
prerogatives of the crown, and rewarding those in-
dividuals contrary to the wishes of the crown.
The LORD CHANCELLOR admitted that he
could not close his eyes to what had been going on for
the last three or four years, and that it was impossible
that he could entertain the same jealousy of the power
of the Crown now as he did four years ago. Since
that period the power of the Crown had been so fenced
round, and its influence cut down, and so many other
great changes, in all which he concurred, had taken
place, that the effect was, that we were no longer
living in such times as those in which Mr. Dunning
moved " that the power of the Crown had increased,
was increasing, and ought to be diminished ;" or, as
those in which he (the Lord Chancellor) had made a
similar motion, which he believed was in the year
1822, or in the last year of the Marquis London-
derry's administration. He no longer, therefore, as-
serted the proposition that any danger to the constitu-
tion was to be apprehended on the side of the Crown.
God forbid that the people of England, either by
their representatives, or without their representa-
tives, should ever cease to guard against the encroach-
ments of the Crown. But it would be a delusion
if he were to say that he thought any apprehensions
were to be entertained from that quarter at present.
The passing of the Reform Bill, and the great in-
crease of the constituency in Ithe,House of Commons,
operated as a defence againstrquiy such danger. On
the bill under their lordships' consideration, and on
the principle upon which it was founded, he always
entertained great doubts. He could not help consi-
dering that the bill known by the name of Mr.
Bankes's bill, which was passed in 1817, was one of
the greatest innovations on the constitution—was one
of the widest departures from the principles of our an-
cestors, that had ever occurred. Sinecure places
there certainly were at that time—places that were
not originally sinecure places, but that were originally
working places, which were given as endowments to
public men for whom there was no other mode of pro-
viding. On the abolition of those sinecures it was
said that it was necessary to provide a similar fund ;
and the argument, a very catching one to the liberals,
who were the most rigorous in their denunciations
against pensions and sinecures, was this—if you will
not furnish the means of rewarding for their services,
men of no private fortune, who accept public situations,
you must not expect that any persons will accept pub-
lic situations but men of large fortune ; you will, in
fact, give a monopoly of public situations to the aristo-
cracy of the country. It must be recollected that the
occupation of a statesman was no profession or trade.
Undoubtedly, too, lawyers and divines, and merchants,
men of various professions and trades, had taken a
part in the struggle for the management of public
affairs ; there was no class of persons who devoted
themselves to the occupation of statesmen as a pro-
fession. If, however, they were to say that there
should be no recompense for the services of men who
had held public situations, it would be tantamount to
saying that none but men of fortune should hold
public situations. Yet he could at once name six or
seven prime ministers, the most distinguished among
those of whom England could boast, who were men of
little or no fortune. There was the first Lord Chatham,
the first Lord Holland, Mr. Pitt, who, although the
younger son of an earl, was a barrister on the Western
Circuit ; both the Lords Liverpool, whom he would
reckon as one ( A laugh), Lord Grenville, Mr. Can-
ning, Lord Sidmouth, Mr. •Perceval, who was also at
the bar, and others. With the exception, indeed, of
Sir Robert Walpole, who had a small patrimony; of Mr.
Pulteney, who had a patrimony which was not small ; of
Mr. Pelham, and of his noble friend at the head of the
present administration, there was scarcely an instance
of a prime minister who hadL not r been born to a
large fortune ; he could not even except the noble
duke near him, for he was a younger brother, and
compelled to follow a profession like himself. ( Several
noble lords here mentioned the names of Lord North,
the Earl of Bute, and the Duke of Grafton.) There
certainly might be more exceptions, but undoubtedly
seven or eight of the most brilliant men amongst those
who had been at the head of the councils of this
country, were individuals who had not been born to
fortune. Nor could it be supposed that the existence
of sinecures had the effect of calling them into the
, public service. It was a curious fact that one of those
sinecures had been granted to Lord North, who was

one of the most wealthy of the class. The first Lord
Chatham had also had a pension ; but neither the
first Lord Holland nor his son, nor Mr. Dunning,
had had a pension or sinecure. The Marquis of
Camden and the Marquis of Buckingham had pen-
sions. Mr. Pitt had a sinecure—the wardenship of the
Cinque Ports. But it was not the hope of pensions
or sinecures which enticed any of those individuals
into the service of the country. ( Hear, hear.)
Undoubtedly those rewards, if they were to be given
at all, ought to be given fairly. Were they ever given
to those who, in the discharge of their duty to
the public, opposed Government ? Mr. Dunning
might have kept moving to the end of time that the
influence of the Crown was increasing, and he would
never have received any sinecure. ( A noble lord ob-
served that Mr. Dunning had been made Chancellor
of the Duchy of Lancaster.) Aye, but that was as a
compensation to him for giving up a lucrative profes-
sional practice. ( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wel-
lington.) The effect of. Mr. Bankes's bill, therefore,
in his opinion, was to make a politician a trader ; to
make a man who entered on public service a political
adventurer. The withholding from public servants re-
muneration as a matter of right, and leaving them to
be rewarded by those casual pensions, rendered them
subservient to those in the highest authority. A young
man said to himself, " I must please the Minister ; lam
not a lord ; I was not born to a great estate ; I must
recommend myself to the Government ; I may begin
by being a puisne Lord of the Admiralty, I may then
be a Secretary of the Treasury, then a secretary
at war, then a Cabinet Minister, and I may at
last, perhaps, obtain a small remuneration for my
services." It was only by pleasing the highest au-
thorities that such an end was now to be achieved.
Talk of consuming the midnight oil! A man might
waste all the oil in his cruet, he might sweat, with
labour until there was no more sweat to come out, he
might utterly exhaust himself in his efforts to serve
the public, and receive no relief, except from the
poor-house, unless he could make himself acceptable
to the minister, and obtain a place. Nay, if he agreed
with the minister, and was put into an office, and if a
week after he differed from the minister, out of that
office he must go. It was necessary for him, there-
fore, to keep his conscience under a bushel for three
or four years, or he stood no chance of any ultimate
reward. On these grounds he had been of opinion
that Mr. Bankes's bill far from improved the pre-
ceding state of things ; and he thought the present bill
a great improvement upon Mr. Bankes's bill, inasmuch
as it left things in not so bad a state as that did.
_ _

The bill was then considered in committee ; but the
report was not received.

WARWICK DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.

Lord WYNFORD sat as Speaker. Counsel were
called in on the Warwick Disfranchisement Bill, and
several witnesses were examined. At ten o'clock fur-
ther proceedings were postponed until to-morrow at
four o'clock ; and their Lordships adjourned.