The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-17 00:00:00

AMENDED BEER BILL.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL, in rising to move the second
reading of the Beer Act Amendment Bill, said that the
information he was continually receiving from all quarters,
convinced him of the necessity of some alteration of
the laws as they at present existed relative to
the sale of beer. (Hear, hear.) The bill he had
introduced had for its object not to infringe on the
enjoyments of the public, but to increase them. (Hear. )
His greatest wish was, that the people should enjoy to
the full extent every comfort that was allowed them
under the act of parliament ; he wished that they should
have every indulgence, but the object of the bill was
to prevent an abuse of that indulgence. (Hear, hear.)
Great difficulties had attended the introduction of clauses
into the bill which could not be considered as having the
effect of restraining the comforts of the people ; but he
ventured to hope that the clauses he intended to propose
would be productive of the greatest good. He doubted the
policy of allowing the consumption of beer upon the premises.
He would observe that, in this bill, he took no notice of
the hours to which public-houses should remain open. He
would not trouble the house further, but would simply
move the second reading of the bill.
Mr. F. PALMER would not say that the enactments
of this bill were not called for, but they should inquire,
first, into the causes that had made them to be called
for. His objection to the bill was simply this,—
that it, in its first clause, annihilated a bill to which he
might be excused for expressing some partiality. The
bill, he could state, had been a great relief and comfort to
the labouring classes. But there had been, what he
would call, a combination amongst his brother ma-
gistrates to put an end to this bill. (Hear, hear. )
toss.
athis
bill,
connected with the landed interest know the
time the Retail Beer Bill will pass into a law, and tha
consequenceill
n
(Bear,i
required hear.)
noH
b e, that
lesseobjectedbarleyth asix securities,
will rise
paying 101. rates per year each, and disqualifying brewers,
quarter.inasmue vh .'
as t
distillers, and other persons of that description, which he
conceived to be a very great hardship. The hon. member
concluded by moving that the bill be read a second time
that day six months.
Mr. WARBURTON seconded the amendment. He
6y consulted.itn es
osfe s
b e n
beer,
ih r less
ethe
magistrates than
labouring
o u
complained of the manner in which the evidence had been
taken upon which the bill was founded. Circulars had
been sent round to the magistrates and parish officers, and
out
ri
nl3 were
classes,
th eir
emagistrates,awm were
irne a tni oonit
in
any of
consumers w
mayor, 3 magistrates' clerks, 3 police officers, Bte.
The
complained of the badness of the beer sold in these houses,
and recommended home-brewed beer, although they ad-
mitted that the home brewer could not compete with the
public brewer. In fact, all the arguments used were
inconsistent, and cut the throats of each other. One
clause in the proposed bill required that any one set-
ting up a beershop should have a permissive certificate
from six 10/. ratepayers in the parish. But it appeared
that 6,600 parishes, about one-half of the parishes of the
kingdom, did not contain more than 300 inhabitants each.
He talked of the small country parishes, and he would ask,
deducting the parson, the magistrate, and a 'squire or two,
how many of these were ratepayers ? Why, many parishes
would not muster more than six. The present bill was
calculated to extinguish beerhouses in such parishes. Of
course he excluded the large and town parishes, such as
Marylebone. Another clause equally objectionable was,
that beer should not be taken more than one hundred yards
from the premises to be drunk in house or shed, or in the
open air. Now he thought that a most oppressive provi-
sion. He conceived that the object of the legislature was
to allow beer to be sold freely and of good quality. Now,
was it not a consequence desired that the house selling
beer should be frequented? Upon the principle on which
the new bill was advocated it ought to extend to all public-
houses, but the bill interfered only with the beerhouses.

The amendment having been Put,
Lord HOWICK concurred with hon. members in
thinking that the breaking up of the old monopoly, in order
to give to the country a full supply of good beer, was a
most desirable act, but he could not help thinking.with the:
hon. baronet ( Sir E. Knatchbull) that there were many
countervailing advantages. He had on a previous occa-
sion taken the liberty of stating that he did not agree in

ti,

attributing to the Beer Act all the, evils which soul'
thought ()tight to be assigned to it, forhe thought many
them were much deeper teated, (Hear.) Still, wher 41
the evidence pointed out that there 4ere
afeat evils attri-
butable to the present state of the law with rb:7pet
sale of beer, he thought it would be most unwise not to
turn their attention to the subject. The hon. member
for Reading (Mr. F. Palmer) had said that all the mis-
chief arose from the strange perverseness of the unpaid
magistrates, and that the object of those gentlemen was to
-give the beerhouses rope enough iii Order that, th%
hang themselves. He was astonished to hear iite asser-
tions. The fault was in the state of the law. 111
contended that some more immediate mode 6
proceeding than that gradual improvement the
honourable member for Reading wished for was neces-
the
rosy. He thotight the objections taken bd
honottrable member flu. Briduti:t to certificates had much
weight. If they *ere tb b any . person wish-
ing to open a beer house to produce a certificate igned by
six occupiers of 101. houses residing in the pariTh; P9o7'.‘lt
restriction would prevent a great-number of parishes front
having a beer house at all. What lie would recommend
was this, that the licenses should be granted as at present
but that the majority, consisting of two-thirds, in vestry,
complaint being made, should have the power of causing
the house improperly conducted to be closed. He knew.
might
that that would be giving the power, as in the other case,
to the principal inhabitants ; but there was this difference
in the working. Many a man would refuse to grant a
li-
cense who would equally refuse to take btie away but upon
just grounds. It was also well known that persons.r
loosely signed certificates that he should regard a 04'
ficate rather as a proof that a person wishing to open a
beershop had six friends who were 10/. householders than
that he was fit to keep a beer-house. He should suWnt
the bill.

tem, iiriudE..CpeOraDteßdl
wNe6llTinoll\arrgtehotxu,gwhut.,thbautt t‘liv
to say that in agricultural districts it amendment.
31r. HEATHCOTE would support the second reading
of the bill, but would not pledge himself to all its provisions.
He decidedly thought that to put a Stop to a full and free
supply of beer would be to injure greatly the agricultural
interes`. Since the present law had been in operation the
consumption of barley and malt had increased twelfth%
The hon. member for Reading had talked much oi .tr•-,,-
comforts enjoyed by the poor under the present law. --
had said that the poor man in the beer-house found a
blazing fire, while he left at home a cheerless cold hearth'
That might be very well for the man (Hear), but what
became of the wife and children ? (Hear.) He denied
that that was a system contributing to the comfort or hap-
piness of the poor which induced the man to leave his home.
The object of beneficent legislation was not to promote ,
aespunresed iertstsoYosd.
sues a system, but to clothe the home itself of the pour :
man with comfort. ( Cheers.) Then the hon. inembe,r
for Read.ng had talked about the magistrates giving th •
Leer-houses rope enough, so that they might hang there- ,
selves. He ti, ught 'he hcn. member had taken ITV, ,1
enough and fairly strangled his own argument. (A laugh. )
Tnen the hon. member for Bridport had objected to inter-
fering with the law on the ground that the present law fa-
voured home production and good beer ; but surely it was
rather inconsistent in the hon. member so to argue, as 116 5 .
wished to introduce molasses into the making of beer, 1.
(A laugh.) H thought the bill had worked well in large
towns, but that in agricultural districts the law required
alteration.
Lord EBRINGTON should cordially support the second !
reading of the bill. In doing so, however, he did not at
all mean to say that some of the details would not requir.
alteration.
Mr. STRICKLAND yielded to no one in a desire to
check immorality ; but he could not consent, at the end
of three or four years, having induced 13,000 persons to
embark their little all in a trade, to turn round and dr
stroy that trade. If the legislature had done wrong in
passing the present law, it would do worse so injuriouslY
,0
repeal it. For his part he was so much an enemy,
,°,
drunk-nness of every description, whether by wine, spint.
or beer, that he could not see the necessity of havinl
fern ented liquors for the labouring population in any pa:_r
of England; but still he would not leave it to the wir
of six poor paxistooners to decide whether it was oe-
sirab'e or not a beershop should be opened. The pro-
posed legislation on that point was certainly as strange.
as ever he heard of ; but, if possible, the remedy suFt,
Bested by an hon. member who spoke before him, s::
od
to
that the granting of the certificate should be
5...,‘
the vestry instead of to the six parishioners was 11,',`
stranger. It amounted, in point of fact, to a proposal w,,
individuals, WO
intrust the power to the identically same . .
under another name. He considered the bill objeceneoniis.
able likewise as an attempt to restrain the system of li c
__
ing on terms, in reality, much more objectionable hal
those imposed under the measure which it was introducen'_
to amend. He regretted to find that the bill proposed °_
alteration with respect to the hours at which beershops
were to be closed. In waging war with the beershops
they were, in fact, shooting at the small and insigrliflean
game, while the destructive monsters were allowed t°
flourish unmolested. In his mind it. would be much better
for the house in the first instance to restrict places where
that destructive, and to him it seemed nauseous, beverage,
gin (A lau(,*h) was sold, and 'then to turn their attention
to the beershops. The hon. baronet concluded by repeat-
ing his intention of supporting the amendment.
Major HANDLEY opposed the motion for the second
reading of the bill, on the ground that it would be exceedingl
harsh towards the parties whose property was at stake, 1"
after the alterations which the beer laws had underpin •
but two or three years ago, any further alterations shalt'
now take place.
Lord SANDON was very much surprised to hear it .a-s:t
rp
serted, as it had been in the course of the debate, tol.
beer-shops had not increased to near the extent alle,gri,
It so occurred that he held in his hand a petitioni i. 13 '3'
over
originated at a public meeting held in Liverpoo.e ~;f
which a gentleman intimately acrainted with the nm r.' ,
aj ost ,
of the beer laws had presided. t that rneetillig
that beer-
the speakers bore testimony to the fact, not only ,
nthat the con-
shops had increased to a frightful extent, .
ental to the
sequence of such increase was highly detrim
neral
d a very once labouring classes of the community ; on
at once
wish was was expressed that the legislature would
had been
terfere to abate the nuisance. As the subject
.. 0
the ut°
already sufficiently debated he would not take up __
most cor
of the house longer than to say that he gave his
dial support to the bill. ( expressed • t hearing
Mr. BUCKINGHAM his surprise a
....
_tel.
it urged in that house as an argument against the bd.!
en..l;st
discussion that an increased number of beershops gal e ~,,ued
comfort to the labouring population. It certainly afFtion
a very low degree of morality on the part of that pol),,re7it to
that a labourer could not enjoy comfort unless
het
hot be
beershops fur drink, and that a similar result migh
takin g of
attained by his sending out for his liquor, and Par The hon•
it in company with his wife and family. (Hear') his cordial
member concluded by stating he intended to gi
support to the second reading of the bill. .
-,I fed in solve
An How. MEMBER thought the bill, i 01%—n'siiiig system, ,
respects, and especially as regarded the lieea- ie
' b measure.
would prove a highly advantageous and doll.; e his support
Mr. PLUMPTRE was quite ready to Pl' t who'
to the measure introduced by his hon. colleague' to
in'
the house and the country were, in his opinion, much.Ho
debted for bringing the subject under considerationt. _ bill
would not say it might not be possible to improve !ies,itji
in committee, but as far as its principle went—ai,'"hoot
its principle alone the house had now to deal—he 1.. ration
it would prove a very advantageous and important alter
111 the existing system. (Hear.) co tal,e
Lord G. SOMERSET said it had been his fete - der
part in the discussion of the bill to amend which that un
consideration was introduced, as also to have been a nieLl',:
ber of the select committee of last year, and from the 3-0
quaintance which those chance circumstances had giveo
him as regarded the bearings of the bill then in force, le
did not hesitate to say that its evils were mainly attributa .s..
to a want of sufficient attention on the part of then
our t 0 '
tracy to its clauses. He was, however, bound in ea
evidence
say that the impression left on his mind by the ethe
pow
taken before the committee of last year was thvaicd
by
those
vested in the magistrates were not
acewZah alone could
means of carrying them into operation
.f"
jaai those means was
render them effective. The Prir'itclriust be evident nothing
an efficient police, without which it
alluded
was not so much felt,
partcular want to which he
al parishes it had operated,))
but in many of the agrictultiir
altogether the success of the b
a way to preclude all
1 of the measure was concerned ho
As far as the P
- rinciP cable to it, and thought the 1100:
was altogether favour
was well deserving the bes'
baronet who introduced it to the
(Hear, hear.) With regard
thanks of that house. ht it 'ht be sible to sag'
details of the bill he thong mg pus . stance,
s He was of opinion, for in a
gest some alteration • . _ .
certificate 10,,
that it would be advisable to render a ,s wine-
,
beer was not drunk on the premise
I_l,
I beershop where ~.,
cessary. (Hear.) 11 would however, enter ii,-,,
He
.not, .
stage, . (1,
the details of the present bill on the present
0, ,ivio!.,
would conclude by simply repeating his intentiown Ito pa.;,,
it his support, and his hoPe that it might be alloy` eu
K,
through the second reading. (Hear.) STIIIC-
After a few words in explanation from Mr.
LAND, ho
f tbOse v. ..
Mr. B. COLBORNE said he had been one 0
..ewila
assisted in the discussion of the existing act for the.._ :4700;
tion of beershops, and although at the time of It',ol,uid tt)
he expected beneficial results from it, he Ns:!se....u, hear; /_.
admit it had altogether disappointed him.. (El a.-1,, two '
Game Bill passe. lower
In fact, the Beer Bill and the ,
eto demoralise the tion•
three sessions ago, had done mor
within his recollee -
orders of society than any measures _
al oele,
He was therefore favourably disposed towards ,7,40., I
me efficient retorm in the operaliacra-
sure promising se
even had d the measure under con'' f el
the beer laws, and a
uld e
'-e features than it had he wo . the
tion less attractive ... it
bound to give it his cordial support. Not only ,stirs
• • of the landowners and magistracy that the able to
opinion
laws were bad, and required revision, but he wa' artici'
state, without fear of contradiction, that it \ca.' p_ort-
pated in by the farmers, and, what was of more w'f,:est
ante,
by their wives and families. (Hear. ) TO sun of
a remedy for the evil was, however, the difficulty tho
amid all the plans proposed he knew of none bettel,.o 0
that beer should in no case 'be -drunk on the prein
which it was sold, ou
Lord ALTHORP rose to express his intention of ri,g;
porting the second reading of the bill. (Hear, bear')

f
i

stect was one of the gravest importance to the interes'=.
of the community, ai d being founded on the principle whit
arordetimest reason to hope fora sat.sfact ry practical effect,
be thought it. Weald be the they of the house to accede t
( A, ,iie raction, and in cCri--itte mike such modifications iii
'"e reichi.;ery by which it was proposed to carry that prin-
' ciple into operation as might be deemed requisite and fit-
ting- (He r hear.) He also had been a member of the
es, rarnittee al uded to by the noble lord who spoke last, and
he quite a 'reed with that noble lord in thinking that the
evidence li7ought before that committee traced the failure
• ° the existing law to a went of adequate pow ere in the ma-
gistrate!: to Carry its provisions into effect. When the mea-
'!tre was under consideration the noble lord doubtless would
recollect he (Lord Althorp) expressed himself favourable
to the principle of certificates ; but the opinion of the ma-
[ ority of the committee from which it emanated, as well
!.s of the government, being that no obstacles should
i iuterfere to prevent the setting up of beer-shops,
i- great relance being plackid ih the eilicieficY of the
1 . Kee regiiltitioiis for the prevention of abuse, his re-
rOhlmendations were neglected, and the measure which
;t was now found necessary to amend became law. Such
being the case, it was scarcely necessary for him to say
he was ready to take into consideration the proposition of
the hon. member for Kent, which, in substance, at least, if
ot in words, embodied the recommendations he alluded to.
'While, however, he gave his assent to the principle on
'Touch the measure was founded, he begged to be under-
st°od as not assenting altogether to the details of the bill.
„,
-!() Many of them he was favourable, but there were some
~nthers which, he thought, might easily undergo improve-
oteht. He would, however, follow the example of the
other hon. members, and reserve the consideration of those
he until the proper period arrived. Before concluding
"e was anxious to express the satisfaction it gave him to
And the hon. baronet undertaking the ditty of introducing
the measure. At the period of its introduction he did not
hesitate to admit that the Government were divided upon
the Point as to what measure would be most expedient, and
!" Was some relief to them to find the subject taken up by an
Individual so perfectly competent to the task as the hon.
Pqronet in whose hands it now stood. (Cheers.),
Mr. RICHARDS supported the motion for the second
-- Lekdint. of the bill. He had been instructed by several
"Intecturing towns in the north of England to express
! conviction that the objects of the present bill would be
t in every respect better attained by the simple means of
„r!ising the licenses to Si. or to 71., or by raising the value
r the houses to which licenses should be granted. He ob-
neted to the bill's leaving it to the option of neighbours to
sign certificates. 'This he was sure would be found to be
quite inefficacious.
,• Mr. ROEBUCK said one of the grounds for bringing
islri this bill was an assertion that since the present law had
existed there had been an increase of crime ; but if this
• ivere the case he denied that there had been any proof of a
connection between this increase and the establishment of
..,. ' • • r shops. A coincidence of events was not always cause
d effect, for they very often had no reference whatever
:.= . each other. Crimes were not produced by beer houses
- i r by any localities, for if men were bent upon crimes and
Could not congregate in beer shops they would even con-
gregate in churches or churchyards rather than be deterred
L • Rom their purpose. He was of opinion that licensed vie-
,allers ought to be put under all the restrictions which
I Were imposed upon the beer shops. (Hear, hear.)
' t,' Mr. A. BARING trusted that the house would support
i'e bill. He was happy to see that there were only two
, three gentlemen that could be found in the house to 1
,leny the vice and misery which the present .system pro-
duced
amongst the poor of every sort. The hon. member
or Bath had talked of the delicacy and difficulty of inter-
fering with the poor ; but-he would tell that hon. member
that it was for the benefit of the poorer classes,
an„ (1 for that alone, that the house was called
tiP°' to legislate in the present instance. He
denied that the industrious portion of the labourers in
~,,`-`3lles were in favour of the beer shops, and he had
Lamds for expressing his belief that nine out of ten of
1,-o''' Men had made complaints of this very system. The
~.,_n• member for Somerset had presented a petition from a
rinsh containing, he believed, 2,000 inhabitants, and 220
for
women had signed that petition, earnestly praying the
_Ouse to remove such places, and thus to restore to them
h~e of the comforts which they used to enjoy before their
te,bands had such resorts in which they could be tempted
h„;_- wse their time and dissipate their money. (Hear,
ti:7!-' ) It had been said that the magistrates had not done
ear duty in regulating the conduct of such houses ; but
tb hat would not have been said against these magistrates
! 1). such popular members, had they gone prying into the
. er shops and interfering with the recreations or little
L'egularities of the poor ? ( Hear, hear.) There was
ii‘ Parity between the cases of public-houses and beer
7°Ps• Public-houses ' in rural districts were situated
b"Pon highways and open to general observation, whilst
eer shops were in secret places and by-paths, where
pen could congregate and commit excesses without the
Lear of detection or exp osure. It was the duty of thath
"use to attend to the subject, and not to allow the nui-
tee to exist beynd the present session. (Hear,
a,: was willing to ofeave the large towns as near as possible
ryateY vent; for, when such innumerable gin-;shops were
• in. themr-ii.irior quite absurd to say that
any ~,,_
61r. C. could arise from having beer-shops next door.
, se BURRELL supported the bill.
",-;donel WILLIAMS supported the bill.
of 'r- LLOYD said that the retail beersellers in the north
4 England were favourable to the principles of the bill.
he could, however, trace crimes to other causes than beer-
' °Ps, such, for instance, as the poor laws, which had de-
Moralized the poor. He believed that there would be
treat difficulty in preventing beer being drank upon the pre-
,,"l be es• There could no doubt that drunkenness in ma-
,-
Ltoacturing towns had greatly increased, but gin-shops had
,711 multiplied in almost an infinite degree. The evil
fitly arose from paying wages to the poor on Saturday
'light, after beer-shops were shut, and when gin-shops con-
tinued open. (Cries of "Question.")
Sir E. KN ATCHBULL rose and briefly replied, after
pat, the motion for reading the bill a second time was
'44, and the gallery was cleared for a division, when the
aturkhers were—
For the second reading 157 •
Against it
Majority —l3o
DANISH CLAIMS.
°n oar return to the gallery we found Mr. H. PARKER
oorhis legs, moving an amendment on the order of the day
0 .the house going into a committee of supply, " that the
rlitos, commonly called the Danish Claims, should be
e erred. to a committee for consideration." The hon.
gentleman would simply state the facts of the case to the
;nisei satisfied that they were in themselves sufficiently
; r°og to induce a ready compliance with his motion. In
%7 aa embargo was laid on 107 Danish ships lying in the
'PO atnes. These vessels and their cargoes were sold, and
Pounds
proceeds, amounting to twelve hundred thousand
„, became droits of Admiralty. The Danish govern-
het. in retaliation, laid an embargo on the debts due by
I nePerchants of that country to the merchants of Eng-
oaeTite , jhe answer of the then ministers to the demands
peace government was, " Wait a while—wait till
bandeds Proclaimed, and these droits shall be at once
alsc been
in liquidation of your claims." They had
that given to understand, before the treaty of Vienna,
to '''' especial clause would be introduced into it, in order
,i, tisreote. and secure their rights. From that day to the
t.tteenintt hour justice had not been dome—not even been
Poed—the droits had remained where they originally
Wh.!_re-.. r
,perhaps been expended, and not one claim had
oce.n liquidated. It was proper he should state that the
taimants had not
clues, and that in 1817 lkf
been guilt of what the lawyers called
house with the intention r_ ansittart came down to that
these just claims, and hail effecting an arrangement of
' krdently alive as he was to the ailed ; that Mr. Canning,
140 failed ; that Sir James nu:kintdoslpismodf the case, hhade
.etielnd uct of the government as most flagrant .d eannoduttiLetd3th .
t Mie had declared it to be the bounden duty of that house
10 satisfy the claims by a vote of money, if the droits ~
be recovered. All that he wished for W..,f. could
li:r'le consideration of the case by a committaeealra:nrcicaa;
felt ''ked Upon that house as the " parens petr'ice," he.
Tolhaehohsono.f
eorhsroafident his motion, necessarily put as it. was in the
e:atl-e of 'an amendment, would be agreed,,That to.th e.
einan concluded by moving,
bert_kM British subjects, commonly called Danish Claims,
,referred to a select committee."
Lord
J. R. READ seconded the motion.
itsALTHORP should not attempt to dispute the
;Is so 'plainly and concisely stated by the hon. gentleman,
~' must express his regret that he did not think it wholly
°nsistent with his duty to agree to the motion. The
question, since the accession f hi • present 3lajesty had
%tuned a totally different aspo for" the claim now made
Was not against the droits ot the Admiralty, which were
oti.,iiiierly private property, but
`., er received one farthing of the droits. The people of
against the people, who had
England would have to pay that which (
ought to be paid
Y droits of Admiralty long since expended. He must th
Itetough reluctantly) oppose the motion, as he really could
bring la.ehimself to propose a tax on the people of Eng-
for such a purpose.
ofter a words from Mr. O'Connell, Lord Sandon Sir
aki1....! Strickland, Mr. Buckingham, Mr. G. W. Nitoed,
Le T Warburton in support of the motion,
SiO4 (1‘: ALTHORP rose and said, after such an expres-
of th-e`Lsiceling, it was his duty to interpose, that the time
beg tfil,nse might not be wasted. He would, therefore,
rind, e ;‘". gentleman to withdraw his motion for a short
ee „,, 'n order to give him time to consult with his col-
lie felt °JI the most-proper course to be pursued. (Cheers.)
theuplo_oroughout that he would never deny granterclim,
hPettlnc.ls,, did not feel justified in proposing a -
,I),Piiiice'° it. The question, after such an expression of
the kith took another turn, and he, therefore, suggested
_light drawal of the motion, that his Majesty's Alunsters
steel cis onsult on the proper course to be pursued under
. sh....llmstances. ( Hear, hear. )
sktisfae'c.„ WARD KNATCHBITLL expressed his great
noble l(rlodli at the straight-forward course pursued by the
ikr.
oh% pA wassupported the amendment.
RKER highly gratified at the determine-

lion of the noble lore, aLc..wnule wit...draw his amend-
ment. (Bear.)
RIF. BAINES ec,rt :Klerk a f ;,(a)ie 1,-4 had done hira-
tel mtieh eredit by tl,e eourti..• lie had 1 iirsttee.
SOUTH AMEIIICAN STATE;'.

Lord SANDON, s;:eing the noble lord the Secretary
for Foreign Affairs in his, place, would ask bias whether
any treaties had been entered into with certain transatlantic
states respecting clams which British subjects had upon
them ? He should also be most desirous to learn whether
any remonstrance had been made to Monte Video concern-
ing the extensive traffic in slaves which it was alleged was
carried on- tinder its protection ?
Lord PALMERSTON would assure the noble lord that
the subject alluded to had not escaped the attention of his
Majesty's government. Instructions had been sent out to
our consuls at Peru and Chili to take the necessary steps ;
and with respect to Monte Video, it was certainly lamen-
table to consider that a state that had so recently ob-
ittined its freedom should forget its sacred laws and engage
in so profligate a trade t 3 that 'f slavery. It was carried
on by those trafficking in sugar; but the British govern-
ment would do all that in there lay to put an end to its
abominations.

Lord SANDON expressed himself satisfied with the ex-
planation of the noble lord.
COURT OF CHANCERY.

Mr. LYNCH rose to bring forward his promised mo-
tion respecting the Court of Chancery, bnt was inter-
rupted by
Alr. O'CONNELL, who would put it to the lion. and
learned gentleman whether, at that hour of the night, and
with so thin an attendance, a question of such importance
ought to be brought before the house?
Mr. LYNCH could not agree in the suggestion of the
hon. and learned gentleman, and proceeded to introduce
his motion. He was understood to say that the question
had been before the House of Lords, but the proceedings
of the committee who had sat upon it were not known. A
bill had been sent down to the House of Commons in July
last, but such bill was liable to many objections. In the
first place, no witnesses had been examined but parties per-
sonally interested—clerks and officers of the court—whose
evidence could' not embrace the topics which the full inves-
tigation of such a subject must naturally bring forward.
The evils complained of were of long duration, and the
remedies sought to be applied had signally failed. What
had they done? Had they removed this abuse, or changed
that oppressive impost? No, they had not. The great
expense—the heart-rending delay—still existed. The
Master's office was, as usual, slow in its proceedings, and
the costs of appeal were as equally high. The evil was
great, and the remedy ought to be in accordance with
its magnitude. He wished to bring forward such a
remedy for the consideration of parliament as would
render. that an efficient court in which he had the
honour to practise. It might be considered invidious in
hini to institute comparisons between the different judges
who had held the seals. The present Lord Chancellor had
heard more cases than his predecessor, but Lord Eldon had
decided upon a greater number of motions brought before
him. From the beginning of 1831 to the beginning of
1832 the Lord Chancellor had disposed of 231 cases.
From the same period for 1832 to 1833, only 109 were
disposed of ; but this great difference could be accounted
for thus :—ln the first-mentioned period he had used the
greatest exertion, and had sat and laboured so incessantly
that his health was seriously endangered. When he ob-
tained the seals he found 101 appeals before the House of
Lords, which he had reduced to 50. Now appeals were
only taken which had been of five years' standing. (Hear. )
He would instance One or two eases. In the case of Cayle
and Palmer, which had been bought forward on the sth
March, 1830, a hearing had not been got till February,
1832. Sir Edward Sugden was then heard at some length,
but nothing further was done till February, 1833. What
misery and heart-burnings must the parties interested have
suffered during, to them, these eventful years ! What
pangs of hope deferred, and justice postponed ! But this
was not a singular instance of the dreadful procrastina-
tion of the court. In the case of Lewis and Morgan,
the briefs were delivered to counsel in 1830, but the
case was still undecided. The case of Green and Jackson
had been brought forward in 1819. It was heard in June,
1828 ; but the Chancellor said he would not pronounce a
decision upon it till the analogous one of ;Aldred and
Parke had been decided. The case to the preunt moment
had not been finally approached, and Green and Jackson
were in the same state as at the commencement. So much
for property ; but when the liberty of the subject was at
stake, it might be presumed there would be greater quick-
ness and despatch. But no ! that did not even accelerate
its pace. Appeals as usual lingered. In the case of the
King versus Redford Rowe a writ of error Was moved for
and obtained, but no heating was had, and the wretched
man had remained five years in custody. Ought that to
have been permitted ? • Ought the liberty of the subject to
he thus jeopardised ? The great mistake was that in 1819,
when a Vice-Chancellor had been appointed, and an effi-
cient court of appeal had not been established, Sir Samuel
Romilly and Sir John Leach, much to their praise, were
in favour of such a court, but the golden opportunity had
been lost. The hon. and learned gentleman then proceeded
to enter into a detail of the various attempts made to re=
form the Court, and said, among others, he could notavoid
mentioning the bill introduced by Sir Edward Sugden,
which had been read a second time, and whose further
progress had been stopped by the demise of the late King.
When Lord Brougham was elevated to the Bench, the
highest expectations were formed, but he unfortunately fell
into a great error by adopting the suggestion of the hon.
member for Sudbury. He consented to separate the
bankruptcy jurisdiction from the Lord Chancellor's, than
which nothing could have been more fatal. There should
have been no separation. But a bill was introduced by
Lord Brougham, which passed the House of Lords, and
was sent down to the Commons during the fever of the
Reform Bill, and carried. The Court of Review was
thus established, which signally failed, and showed an-
other striking example of the evil of legislating in a hur-
ried and precipitate manner. To balance the disappoint-
ment thus arising, he would refer to the commissioners
and official assignees, who had fully answered the pur-
poses of those who had created their officers. The hon.
and learned gentleman next went on to eulogise the Lord
Chancello: for his reducing the fees of his court, but he
contended that the only full and comprehensive remedy
that could be applied to evils of a pressing and most com-
plicated description, would be to separate the judicial from
'the political functions of the Chancellor. In proposing
that legal- divorce, if he might so use the term, he felt
himself open to be taunted with wishing to trench too
closely on the royal prerogative. Such was not his inten-
tion ; the Crown would still have the power of appoint-
ment ; but, even if the taunt could be successfully di-
rected, he would not shrink from its approach. His; ap-
proach upon the.domains of the prerogative, would be only
to have prompt and efficient justice administered. The pre-
sent system was at most but a mockery. In English appeals,
the appeal was from Caesar to Caesar, from an English
Chancellor to an English Chancellor. Lord Brougham feel-
ingly lamented this necessity imposed upon him, and was
heard recently to state that he would not proceed till he had
the assistance of Lord Plunket : Thus an Irish judge was
called upon for aid, who could not give it without injuring the
suitors of his own court. Was not such a monstrous and an
anomalous system ? (Cries of " Hear, hear.") His
(Mr. Lynch s) plan would be to have a court consti-
tuted equal to any business that might be brought before
it. That court he would have formed thus :—The Chan-
cellor should sit aided by four of the best lawyers that
could be found in the respective walks of the profession.
There should be one equity lawyer, one common lawyer,
one Scotch advocate, and one civil lawyer. It might be,
then, popularly said he was looking for the creation of new
Judges. True he was ; but he was at the same time look-
ing for the abolition of others. He would put an end to
one court that was useless, for the creation of another that
would meet the claims that would lie on its justice. The
Chancellor of England, no matter how deep and pene-
trating his mind—how profound his learning—how clear
his thoughts, could not always command them. The
business was too much for one ; in fact, even his know-
ledge could not be acquired in the proper field. A man
might be a Chancellor who never practised in a court of
equity. He would have a bar for the Court he spoke of ;
a bar so efficient, that the suitors would be at no loss to
find able hands in which to intrust their briefs. He would
do away with the present system altogether. The learned
Solicitor-General might smile, and say it was the consum-
mation of the wisdom of ages. Still he would relieve the
Chancellor from his present too onerous duties, and have
him ably assisted. Let the house for a moment re-
flect on the multiplicity and varied nature of his
dlie:aieesid.t
deliberations.
rraastttt,ieona as
.OLn oN
dt
r Chancellor, he sat in his Court.
d
their t'
as
Privy
Councillor, he was bound to assist at all
Next, as
baoaCoad to
binetreadCoutnhceillor,he
ga
Recor-
der's report. Besides h
of Lords as
greaStpoerattearp all these, he has to sit in the House
andpndous
however
spokethis
oafn, els
ht hoeurledfobree ,d tuhbe,
(cm.
nus
ierhitiariesreseuirnd.t.i intellect, I
as ealept tpw,
he
aaless. could Nmoastmeraanll
(Mr.L
his eaytnch
ob-
ject to separate the duties of the Lord Chancellor in the
Court of Chancery and his duties in the House of Lords.
When the committee were appointed, it would be for them
to consider whether there ought to be an intermediate
Court of Appeal ; and if so, whether that Court should
consist of only one judge, or of more than one judge. He
thought there should be such a Court, and that it should
consist of more than one judge, but he should decidedly
object to judges being judges in any other Court. If there
were an intermediate Court of Appeal, it ought to consist
of a separate set of judges. If the committee should be
of opinion that no intermediate Court of Appeal were ne-
cessary, it would be then for them to consider whether it
would be advisable to appoint another judge in the Court
of Chancery. His opinion was most decidedly in favour
of such an appointment. Nothing could be more injuri-
ous to suitors than the delay which invariably occurred in
this Court between the time his case was set down for hear-
ing, and the time it was actually heard. The extent of this
delay in the Court of Chancery was generally nine months,
never less than eight. And when the suitor's case comes
on for hearing, he was very little nearer his object. After
waiting about two or three months, his case was sent to
some master's office for further directions, and it was
generally a long year before the report was returned from
the master's office. Even this was not the termination of
the unhappy suitor's delays ; and, in short, a chancery