The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-06 00:00:00

I M PER TA LPARLIAMENT

THIS DAY, TUESDAY, AUGUST 6.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The House met at about twenty minutes past twelve
o'clock.

GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motio❑ of Lord DUNGANNON, the House re-
solved itself into a Committee on the Grand Juries
eland) Mr Boreal in the ch or.
Lord DUNGANNON said he had some amendments
to propose in the 30th cl iuse (which was under discussion
on the last day this Committee sat). He thought it was
highly desirable that Grand Juries should be called over,
and the'r attendance enforced, in order that not a 1,-ss num
her of Grand Jurors should he in attendance than was neces-
sary by law for finding a bill of indictment. By the clause as
it now stood, each Grand Jury were to be called over
morning and evening ; he proposed instead, that they be
called over every morninz, and at such other periods of
the day as the foreman should deem requisite provided
that at those periods there was a less number present than
were required by law to pass a Bill which he under-
stood to he thirteen. Another amendment was that which
was suggested by the Hon. and Learned Meniher for the
University of Dublin, and to which lie (Lord Duncannon)
was disposed to accede, viz., that the penalty on a Grand
Juror fur nun_•tttendance should be 40s. instead of si.

Mr. SHAW said, he had never (o.jected to the amount
of the p-nalry, hut to that part of the clause which male
it imperative on the Foreman to inflict the penalty.
That power should be vested in the Judges of Assize, and
not in the Foreman.

Lord DUNCANNON said, the Grand Jury sat not only
while the Judges were sitting, but when they were absent.
He knew that it was absolutely necessary to compel the
foreman to inflict the fine, oche, wise he would not do it.
—(Heir, hear.) The Noble Lord also slid, that at the
end of the clause he intended to introduce a proviso, to
the r ffect that nothing contained in it should ,ffect the
authority of any Judge to enforce the attendance of any
G and Juror.

Mr. SHAW was opposed to that part which compelled
the foreman to inflict a penalty on any juror who was
absent; it ought to leave in the foreman a discretion to
fine accordinz to the circumstances of the case.

Lord DUNCANNON—It is only in ea.es where the
number of Grand Jurors present was less than required
by law.

Mr. J. GRATTAN thought the al-erations suggested
by the Ni.li!e Lord were gre,it improvements.
After a few wards from Mr. RUTHVEN,

Mr. LITTLETON thought the proposed alterations
would be improvements in the clause. No fear need he
entertained that the fines would be unnecessarily imposed,
as the foreman was generally a Member for the county,
or some gentleman of great influence. The arrangements
were not only applicable to the criminal business of the
county, but of all business that bad to come before
Grand Juries.

Mr. WALKER supported the Amendments; he knew
it was often the c ise that after the Grand Jury met in
the morning, many members of it went out riding and
amusing theinsely,s. It was no hardship upon a erand
juror to be fined fur non-attendance, b cause if he could
•how good cause for his absence the judge would remit the
penalty.
After a further conversation, between Mr. Shaw, Lord
Oxtnantown, Lord E,:rineton, and Mr. O'Dwyer, ano,
on the question that the clause should stand part of the Bill,
Lord OXNIAN fOWN objected, on the ground of its
heine unnecessary to use any such means to enforce the
attendance of Gland Jurors as the clause provided. He
could not at all agree to the propriety of enacting such
fines, and should divide the House aeainst the clause.

Mr. S. LEFEVRE said, he was certain that any per-
son who had observed the manner in which such public
business was dispo-ed of, mu-t be convinced of the neces-
sity of imposing fines on the Grind Juror-, and that those
fines stiotod be fixed, and certain in their application.
Mr. SHAW declared that he could not see the necessity
for it. It appeared to him that the Grand Jurors were
stimulated sufficiently by a desire to do their duty effec-
tivelY, without their being subj.ct to any fines.
Mr. S. LEFEVRE rejoined—lt was a constant prac-
tice that the foreman of the Grind Jury was necessitated
to apply to the Court for the infliction of fines in conse-
quence of the absence of jurors; and that, when their
names were called over, with a fine of 5/. to each, the
evil was remedied.

Mr. O'CONNELL bore testimony to the fact, that at least
half a dozen times during each assize the Judge was applied
to, and as soon as the absent jurors were fined an imme-
diate attendance took place; and it followed, almost as a
matter of course, that his Lordship was applied to fur a
remission of the fines. It was of more con,equence that the
power should be v,st.,d in the foreman of the jury, during
the absence of the Judge—for instance, before the arrival
of the Judge at the assize town.
Mr. SHAW agreed with the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber that the same power should be vested in the hands of
some competent authority, say the foreman of the jury, but
not a greater power than would be possessed by the Judge.
The !louse then divided—
For the clause as amended 37
Against it
Majority —3l

Mr. GRATTAN moved, as an amendment in Clause
32, after the words " authorised and directed," to insert,
" Provided always, that no person in any barony sh ill he
permitted to serve twice as a Grand Juror, until all quali.
fled persons in their respective baronies shall have
been regularly called on to atrend." It was well
known by every one acquainted with Ireland,
that one of the principal evils of the present
system of presentments was, that the Grand Jury
were virtually a permanent body, And there was no
mode of remedying the evil, as far as he could see, in
order to prevent jobbing, and to secure complete parochial
representation, than to make it imperative on the Sheriff
to select the grand jury annually from the list of qualified
persons in rotation. The amendment, as we understood,
was agreed tn.
Mr. O'BRIEN moved the insertion of words making it
compulsory as a qualification that the Grand Jurors should
reside in the county from which they were selected.

On the recommendation, however, of Lord De NCANNON
and Mr. Lzrrt.rroN, the amendment was withdrawn, on
the understanding that it sh.uld be attended to in another
part of the Bill.

The clause wag then agreed to.

Mr O'CONNELL proposed an amendment, with
respect to the arrangements affecting the Treasurers. There
was nothing more common in Ireland than hat Treasurers
got rich by lending out the Grand Jury money at interest.
The Treasurers in Galway and in Kilkenny were at the
head of the banks there, and no doubt existed thai, they
had the power of acting in a manner that could not be
approved of.
Mr. SHAW considered that the amendment would have
the effect of preventing all respectable men in the counties
in Ireland from becionine suretiea for treasurers.

Lord DUNCANNON did not think this a place to
discuss each particular case of every individual county--
that was a subject t be I-ft to a Committee up stairs—if
not no B II could ever be got through the Mouse.
Mr. SULLIVAN was himself surety for one treasurer,
and if the amendment now proposed was agreed to, the
first thing he should do would be to withdraw his surety-
ship, and give up his privilege (if privilege it was) of
being a Grand Juror. In case the amendment was carried
there would be no Grand Jurors found to be sureties.
The amendment was then withdrawn.
Mr. O'DWYER proposed an amendment at line 27,
in clause 33. to the effect of excluding persons holding
fictitious rank and deriving grand jury money, being in
possessifm of that to which they had no pretension.
111:. O'CONNELL said the object of his Hon. Friend's
amendment was good, but as this was not the time anti
pl ice at which to press it, he hoped the Hon. Member
would withdraw it,
Mr. O'DWYER, with all the respect he had for his
Hon. and Learned Friend, was still disposed to take the
opinion of the Committee on the amendment.
Mr. AGLIONBY hoped his Hun. Friend would not
press his amendment.
Mr. ()DWYER said that he would not withdraw his
amendment.

Clause 33 was then ordered to stand p•irt of the
Clau,e 34, with a few verbal amendments was agreed
to, and ordered to stand pat t of the Bill.
Clause 35, after a few words from Mr. SHAW, with
a few verbal amend.nents, was agreed to and ordered to
stand part of the Bill.
Mr. FRENCH suggested an amendment to the 26th
clause, the purport of which it was impossible to catch in
the gallery

Mr. O'DWYER objected to this system of compulsory
preeentm,nta.
Lord DUNCANNON considered this clause to give the
beet means of control over the expenditure of the court.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the system of compul.mry
presentments was one f the greatest grievances in Ireland.
Clause 36, as amended, was then agreed to, and ordered
to stand part of the 13.11.
On arriving at the 37th clause which provided for th,
appointment of engineers.
Lord OXMANTOWN moved an amendment, to the
effect that such persons should be military engineers.