The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-05 00:00:00

came to this, that they were in fact providing for the culti-
vation of the whole country. The noble lord had te.lked
about encouraging education. Now, there was uo differ-
ence of opinion as to education, which meant the literary
education of the people—the education of the mind. But
if the propositions of the noble lcrd were to be ad-opted,
where were they to stop ? Education did, not mean edu-
cating the people in trades. The principle of these votes was
substantially false. Why they might have a similar vote to
this for teaching people to work mills. If the principal were
to be adopted, he could not see the limit that could be put to
it. As to th;sl model farm, he would have beau glad to have
heard something from the Secretary for Irel ud and some of
the Irish members. So far as they were concerned no illumi-
nation had been thrown upon this subject. He found that
there were 19 agricultural schools under this model farm.
(Hear, hear.) There was a model school in Limerick, and
surely the right hon, gentleman the Secretary to the Ord-
nance might have given them some information as to the
working of that school. This was only one of 19 districts,
and this was a very good opportunity for the members for
those districts to come forward and contribute to the debate.

(Laughter.) The country had fallen into a habit of unnecessary
expenditure. Ho would not of course object to any expcndi-

tura for the legitimate education of the people, but let it not
be an education which was to teach them trades and how to
till the soil.

Mr. HORSMAN said this vote was similar to one which
the right hon. gentleman had himself introduced into tue

estimates when he was in office. He (Hr. foreman) was not
prepared to vindicate all the items of the vote, • It might be
a question for future discussion, whether or not the commis-
sioners bad acted wisely in disposing of the money which had
been placed by Parliament at their disposal —(ironical che:to
from the Opposition)—but this he was bound to say, that if
the vote asked for were now refused, tke establishment which
was now in active o eration, and which it was admitted on
all hands had worked well, would be unceremoniously bro-
ken up.

Mr. M'MAIION said, he hoped that the vote proposed for
this year would bo granted, with the understanding that on
future occasions such grants would be strictly inquired into.
Sir J. SHELLEY complained that the Secretary for Ire-
land (Mr. Horsman) had done an injustice to the land-
owners of Ireland in supposing they required this vote. Those
landowners had established a Royal Society of Agriculture,
upon which they mainly relied for the results which this vote
was intended to achieve.

Mr. WILSON protested against the vote of the present
year being disallowed, and urged as a reason that the esta-
blishment, at present in full working order, would. be de-
stroyed by it.
Mr. STRAFFORD said that as an Irish landowner he had
watched this agricultural training school for many years past,
and could not see that it had been of any use. It was a class
legislation—of the agriculturists against all other trades—and
class legislation on the part of Ireland against England. He
was particularly connected as a landowner with Limerick, and
why should he not put in a voico, for a vote in favour of ship-
building ? He thought that the agriculturists of Ireland
should be left to themselves, a course by which they would
greatly benefit. He found, indeed, that it bad come to this,
that he as a protectionist was preaching free-trade to free-
traders. (Hear, and laughter.) . .

Mr. BARNES considered it his duty to oppose this vote on
the ground of its obvious injustice.
Lord PALMERSTON said that if the right hon. gentleman
the member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) 11,A relied
more upon his memory than upon the force of his imagina-
tion, he might have remembered that he was answerable to a
very considerable extent for these votes. Perhaps, however,
his memory did not serve him when ho broke his lance
against his own shield. He (the noble lord) could not admit
the doctrine the right hon. gentleman had laid down, that
the efforts of the Government for educational purposes should
be limited to religion and morality, which would entirely
preclude encouragement being given to persons who were
desirous of maintaining themselves respectably in the
course of their future lives. He had always understood
that wha', was meant by education in its highest form was
to enable people to go through their career in life, under
any circumstances in which they might he placed, with cre-
dit to themselves and usefulness to the community ; and it
certainly was to him a new doctrine that it was a waste of
the public money to instruct people in industrial occupations.
(Hear.) It had been said, if you teach people agriculture,
why not teach them cotton-spinning ? Why, Government
did teach them cotton-spinning. Government established
sehoo!s of design to assist the manufactures of the country,
end why not, upon the same principle, establish schools of
agriculture for tho people of Ireland ? not for the purpose
, of making fortunes or accumulating, but to enable them to
' keep their wives and families, and to sustain them in their
struggle through life. (Hear, hear.) Supposing it were ad-
mitted as a general principle that it was not expedient to de-
vote public money to purposes of this kind, Ireland would
certainly be an exception. Not to go into those discussions
with which every hon. member must be familiar, all must
know the unfortunate condition in which Ireland had for ages
past been placed. Everybody knew how Ireland had been
mismanaged—(ironical cheers)—when they reflected that Ire-
land was a country comparatively poor—poor because in
former ages it had been subjected to an improper system of
Government —the victim of sectarian oppression and class
legislation—when they reflected that Ireland was suffering
from these calamities, the result of English misgovernment,
he thought it was fairly entitled to be an exception. (Hear,
hear.) But what was the infliction—what was the calamity
that had pressed upon Ireland during the last few years?
It was famine—deficiency of food iu consequence of the in-
efficient manner in which the cultivators of little acres had
been able to discharge their duties. While, then, the minds of
bon. gentlemen were affected by the evils of that state of things
—when they were callei upon to devote a small portion of the
revenue to prevent a recurrence of that calamity, was it to be
said that it should be refused because it was a misapplication
of the grant ! (Hear.) It might be true that this system, like
many others which were inherently good, had been carried
too far by those who had established them. It was possible
that this system of training schools might have been carried
beyond the necessities of the case, or even that their benefi-
cial results rendered their continuance no longer necessary.
These allegations might be admitted, for it was never sup.
posed that these institutions were to be permanent. Every
one knew that they were merely of a temporary character, to
cease when they had accomplished the purposes for which
they were established. He w.s quite ready to admit that
this might be a fit subject for revision in future years, but
he could not be a consenting party to a reduction of the vote
in the present year_
Mr. DISRAELI said the noldo lord had been extremely
humorous in reference to his forgetfulness of memory ; but
if the house would deign to remember such circumstances, it
would remember that when he assumed the responsible post
of Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was -an arrangement that
the Goveimment of which he was a member should accept and
move the estimates of their predecessors. Ho was somewhat
surprised at the tone of the noble lord in reference to this
vote. The noble lord had complained that Ireland had been
the victim of sectarian differences for years past, and that
therefore it became necessary to establish model farms. That
reminded him (sir. Disraeli) of the earlier days of his Parlia-
mentary experience, when he constantly heard of the miseries
of Ireland. Ho believed now. that Ireland was a country
upon which they might look with delight and envy, but the
noble lord's remarks had thrown a cloud over the whole de:
bate. At all events the noble lord had had a half-century of
official responsibility in connection with Ireland. As the
noble lord had abandoned the principle upon which he started
he should not press his opposition, or seek in any way to em-
barrass the Government, more especially as the noble lord
admitted that such votes could not again be submitted to
Parliament.
Lord PALMERSTON said he should be sorry to take ad-
vantage of the right hon. gentleman's vote upon such an un-
derstanding. All he had said was that the subject might be
properly discussed in future years.
Mr. HADFIELD was of opinion that Ireland had had
too much done for her. He believed that the noble lord
would never be a party to such wrangles if he was left to his
own free will, but he was goaded by gentlemen before, and
goaded by gentlemen behind, so that he was obliged to move
on. (Laughter.) There was a power in the minds of the na-
tion far more anxious to educate the people than there was
in the people to be educated. Those grants were bidding
against public spirit, and silencing the proper feeling of the
country.
Mr. T. HANKEY wished to know the meaning of 700/.
voted to workhouse teachers. Those teachers in England
were paid out of the poor-rates.
Mr. SPOONER said that it would be doing a great injustice
to persons whose livelihood depended on these grants to take
`them away.
Mr. VANSITTART moved to reduce the vote to 200,0001.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the noble lord seemed inclined to
abandon the principle of the vete' but the Secretary of the
Treasury gets up and says that it had, been voted year after
year, and defended it at all hazards. Ho thought that the
Government should postpone the vote.
Mr. BLACKBURN said that no injustice was proposed to
persons already in the possession of contracts, but the pre-
sent votes contained an increase of 12,000/. Unless the Go-
vernment would pledge themselves to a future reduction, he
thought the house ought to go to a division.
Mr. MOWBRAY thought that the sense of the house
should be taken on the two votes of 3,0001. for a model
school in Londonderry, and 4,000/. for a model school, place
not specified.
Lord PALMERSTON could only repeat that the whole
subject should be left to the commissioners. The Govern-
ment could not pledge itself further, and the house ought to
be satisfied with the assurance.
The amendment of Mr. Vansittart having been withdrawn,
the house divided oa the original amendment, when there
appeared
For the amendment .
Against it
Majority
The original question having been put,
Mr. MOWBRAY moved the reduction of the vote by the
two sums of 3,0001. and 4,0001. for two new schools, not as
yet sanctioned, and of one-of which the Government had not
as yet decided on the site.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS,
Mr. HEY WORTH rejoiced that the prospects of economy
bad made more progress on the other side of the house than
on their own. These grants were as much a violation of
public justice as of public economy.
Mr. INI'MAHON supp•erted the full amount of the vote.
The house divided, when there were—
For the amendment . 4l
Against 126
Majority --85
Mr. SPOGNER moved to report progress on account of the
lateness of the hour.
Th 6 motion was agreed to.
The Joint-Stock Companies Bill was committed pro forma,
for-the purpose of being reprinted with amendments.
The Public Works (Ireland) Bill was read a second time.
The house then went into committee pro forma on the
Bankruptcy (Scotland) Bill, for the purpose of its being re-
printed with amendments.
JOHN SADLEIR AND THE ENCUMBERED ESTATES
COURT.
Mr. DEASY moved for returns of the several purchases
made in the- Encumbered Estates Court by the late John
Sadleir, or any one in trust for him ; specifying the name or
title of the estate or matter in which each such purchase was
made, the names of the solicitors having the carriage of the
sale, and the amount of the purchase money. Of the number
of declarations of trust made by or to said John Sadleir, ap-
pearing in any book or document in the Encumbered Estates
Court ; specifying the names or titles of the estate or matter
in which such declarations of trust were made, and the names
of the solicitors having the carriage of the sales in such mat-
ters. Of the several orders made by the commissioners, or
any of them, extending the time for lodgment of purchase
money by said John Sadleir; specifying the date of the or-
der, the amount of the purchase money, the name or title of
the estate, and the period for which the time of lodgment was.
extended. And, of the number of conveyances executed by
the commissioners to the said John Sadleir, or any one in
trust for him.
Mr. HORSMAN consented to the returns being granted.
The house then adjourned at twenty•five minutes to two
o'clock.

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Mon'signor Patrizzi will set out from Rome to-
wards the end of May for Paris, in order to repre-
sent the Pope at the baptism of the Prince Impe•
rig