The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-23 00:00:00

ROYAL ASSENT.

The royal assent was given to the Exchequer Re-
ceipt Bill, Smuggling Act Amendment Bill, Hemp
and Flax Bill, Clerk of the Pipe ( Scotland) Bill,
Warwick Witnesses' Indemnity Bill, Liverpool Wit-
nesses' Indemnity Bill, Calder and Hebble Navigation
Bill, London Bridge Approaches Bill, New Brunswick
Land Company Bill, British American Land Company
Bill, Dorchester Paving Bill, Limerick Waterworks
Bill, Newcastle-upon-Tyne Waterworks Bill, Bute
Ship Canal Bill, Montgomeryshire Canal Debt Bill,
Birmingham and Liverpool Junction Canal Bill, Al-
liance Marine Assurance Company Bill, Folly or
Friars ( Oxford) Bridge Bill, Bridgwater Gas Bill,
Cambridge Gas Bill, Preston and Wigan ( North
Union) Railway Bill, Blaydon and Hebburn Railway
Bill, Dublin and Kingston Railway Bill, Rugeley and
Stone Road Bill, Southtown ( Yarmouth) Road Bill,
Glasgow and Shotts Road Bill, Montgomeryshire
Roads Bill, Wortley Road Bill, Glastonbury Parishes
Bill, Arle (Gloucester) Inclosure Bill, Tisbury ( Wilts)
Inclosure Bill, Great Shelford ( Cambridge) Inclosure
Bill, Duntsborne (Gloucester) Inclosure Bill, and
Raskelf ( York) Inclosure Bill.
The commissioners were the Lord Chancellor,
Marquis of Lansdowne, and the Earl of Shaftesbury.
A message from the House of Commons requested
permission for the attendance of the Earl of Eldon to
give evidence before the committee of inquiry into the '
salaries of the judges of the Court of Sessions in Scot-
land.—Permission was given in the usual form.
Members from the House of Commons brought up
several private bills.
The Archbishop of YORK presented several peti-
tions from places in the West Riding of Yorkshire,
praying for protection to the established church.
Earl FIT Z WIL L lAM presented petitions from
two places, the names of which we could not hear,
praying for relief to the hand-loom weavers.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented petitions
frourSt. Mary, Radcliffe; and St. Thomas, and other pa-
rishes in Bristol, praying the house for protection against
dangers which they apprehended to the established
church from the dissenters, particularly from their ad-
mission to the universities. He certainly agreed with
the petitioners in their alarm, and especially from the
violence with which the dissenters were now urging
their demands, and when he considered the power they

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY gave notice that upon
motion for the.house to go into committee upon
:be Poor Laws Amendment Bill, he would move the
a 1-mtion of a clause to restrain the power of the com-
missioners.

major BE AUCLERK presented a petition from
the governors and guardians of the poor of St. Mary,
Newington, against the Poor Laws' Amendment
Bill. Also a petition from Wandsworth, signed by
three thousand persons, in favour of the Dorsetshire
labourers, and a petition from the national consolidated
trades' union of Bradford, to the same effect.
Mr. EWART moved for certain returns connected
with the Royal Academy, Somerset-hogz,e, which
were ordered.
Mr. WATSON presented a petition from an indi-
vidual of the name of Robert Francis, near Canter-
bury, against the Poor Laws' Amendment Bill.
Mr. WALTE R presented a petition from Newbury,
praying for the appointment of a Committee to in-
quire into the causes aniteffects of drunkenness.
Mr. WILES presented four petitions from the
Protestant Dissenters of Oswestry, Ashby-de-la- Zouch,
Appleby, and Christ Church in Hampshire, against
the measure for the commutation of church ► ates.
The hon. member desired to take the opportunity
of presenting those petitions, to ask the noble lord
if it was his intention to persevere in that measure ?
and if so, when- it might he expected that he would
introduce a bill on the subject ?
Lord ALTHORP WCs understood to say that it
was his intention to persevere with it, but that at pre=
sent he could not pledge himself to any precise time of
introducing the bill.
Some observations were made in a very inaudible
and indistinct manner by one or two members, as was
believed, relative to the periods at which the British
Museum was open, when
Mr. EWART expressed his opinion that although
it might be necessary for the trustees to shut it on cer-
tain days, yet that it might be opened to the public
in the evenings, which would be a great accommoda-
tion.
NEWSPAPER STAMPS.

Mr. E. L. BUL WE R rose to move, in pursuance
of the notice he had before given, the repeat
of the stamp duty on newspapers, and that all
printed works, under a certain weight, should have
the privilege of transmission through post at a low
rate. He was induced, on bringing forward this motion
on a former occasion, by the favour able reception by
which it seemed to be met by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and partly from the general feeling of the house
that it would be better to delay it until that reform had
taken place which had been now obtained, to postpone
it accordingly. On that occasion, he had been requested
by every hon. member who spoke, to take the earliest
opportunity afterwards of pressing the subject.
He had, however, both during last session, and.
also during that part of the present session that
had elapsed, been prevented from doing so, and this
was the first time he had had the opportunity of dis-
charging a pledge he had given to the country, and
a duty he owed to himself. The question now was not
what it then was, shivering on the threshold of that
house, and only agitated by a few out of doors. Since
that time it had been taken up warmly throughout the
country, and if hon. members were mindful of the
wishes of their constituents, and the pledges
which many of them had given, he could have no
misgivings as to the result. At the same time,
he was not like many who had proposed the
repeal of certain acts without finding a substitute,
because, on the present occasion he had a substitute
to propose for that which he desired to have repealed.
Numerous petitions had been presented against this
tax, and they had not proceeded from the proprietors
of existing papers, they for the most part wishing the
tax to remain, in order that their monopoly might be con-
tinued. Those petitions had not emanated from any par-
ticular meeting, but from the community at large, who
desired a free circulation of political information ; such as
the debates of that house, the measures of the legislature,
the state offoreign affairs, and all that kind of knowledge
which was calculated to promote the political and moral
wel Lbeing of society. No question deserved more atten-
tion from the government; or greater support from the
legislature. He recollected the noble lord on a former
occasion saying that the existing newspapers would be
the first to complain, if any could complain with
justice, and that remark was very generally cheered.
But whoever heard of monopolists coming for-
ward to do away with their own monopolies ? That
had not been the case with reference to the East
India Company. The sevenpenny copy of every news-
paper cost 50. in stamps and paper before any
workmanship was applied to it. The capital required
to establish a newspaper amounted to 20,0001.
30,0001., and even 40,0001. Of course, then, those
who had embarked such capitals, and established their
monopolies, wished to have the tax continued, in
order to keep out all competitors. They did
not suffer from the existence of the tax, but
the community at large suffered. ( Hear, hear,
hear.) It was a maxim in state policy,
that if an article was taxed 15 per cent., smuggling
would be introduced ; yet newspapers were taxed
200 per cent., and there were plenty of contra-
band goods. Numerous unstamped publications
were constantly issuing from the press, but the
writers for such papers could not have much
respect for the law, seeing that they acted in defiance
of the laws, and therefore they could not be safe
teachers of those by whom their writings were gene-
rally perused. He recollected one of those papers, in
some remarks on trades' unions, seemed to have a great
fancy for the property of the Duke of Bedford—
another paper had been remarkably anxious for the
assassination of the Duke of Wellington. ( A laugh.)
Indeed these papers for the most part contained propo-
sitions which would be most absurd if addressed
to that house, but they were dangerous to the person!,
to whom they were addressed, and the worst part of the
evil was that they were not, and could not be, answered,
for the stamped and expensive papers were
not read by the working and lower classes.
Therefore, by this tax, the poor were deprived of po-
litical information, while, instead of it, they obtained
incendiary and unprincipled doctrines, disseminated in
a way the most dangerous to the peace and well being
of society. They laid the poison upon the table while
the medicine was kept under lock and key. By this tax
two monopolies were kept up, and two publics were con-
t
stituted--one
hot; i
oettwssuheshte, e—ofdsmrta
press,—the
theyee nnaoe.
arose,
othohsgemeear
,vbaet
aehnit
edltae better
shoo informed,
aeofwre aoirsnmaotdridot enharaenslyd,
uneducatedbetterasahnnoddu lcdo
pe
bdv
uceul a
sci sam sitoo_nds
enlightenedts,
anxious to give proper instruction ; to that public they
gave by this tax only a mischievous and dangerous spe-
cies of information. They either totally deprived the
poor of political information, or gave them that of a most
pernicious description. He might stop here and say
that he had made out his case. What more need be
said to prove that this was a tax that ought to be re-
pealed? What greater curse could a government bring
upon itself than it must experience, if it permitted
the most dangerous opinions and suppressed the reply?
Of what greater crime could a government be guilty,
than that of allowing the minds of the poor to be
poisoned ? than that of pandering to their demoraliza-
tion ? And, if demoralization led to guilt, and guilt
to punishment, of encouraging the wanton sacrifice cf
human life itself ? ( Hear, hear.) When it was said,

that when we opened the Market to cheap papers all
kinds of trash would be poured in, those who said it
were not aware of the trash that now existed, that was
now circulated in defiance of your laws, of your fines,
and of your gaols. ( Hear, hear.) During the present
administration from 300 to 400 persons had ben im-
prisoned for merely selling unstamped publications in
the streets, had been punished With the utmost rigour,
. sent to herd with felons and the basest outcasts of so-
ciety, and what had been the cousequence ? Had they
put down the publications themselves ? No I They had
only raised their authors into importance among that
part of the population they addressed, and instead
of silencing fanaticism, they had exalted the ltnatic
into the martyr ; if there was one true exiom in the
world it was this--that opinion ehly can put down
opinion ; and if bad doctrines Were afloat, they could
only refute them by the propagation of good doctrines,
and therefore it was Wisely said the other day by
a noble lord, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, in, answer to Lord Winehilsea, who
urged him to prosecute the unstamped publications,
" that prosecution might only give them a double
publicity." But in what a condition, then, were the
govtrenment placed ? They left a law on their sta-
tute-book to which they dared not apply--a law which,
'when dormant, gave a monopoly to the disaffected ;
and when exerted, only fed still more the disaffection.
If they did not use it, they were injured ; if they did
use it, they were injured doubly. They were like a
man who kept a h':.ii-dog so fierce that it was good
for nothing, it worried -both friend and foe ; when
chained, tte robber escaped ; when let loose, it turned
upon its master. ( Hear.) And a worthy task it was
for the minister of England to be waging this petty
was' with bill-stickers and hawkers ! To let the paper
itself go free, to pounce upon the man who sells it,—
to level the thunders of the law upon some ragged
itinerant, some pedlar of the press, and then skulk
behind the Stamp-office commissioners, and say,
They did the deed—it is not we who prosecute—
it is our agents at the Stamp-office." Miserable sub-
terfuge ! pitiful excuse ( Hear, hear.) The mi-
nisters had the law in their own hands, and they were
answerable for every prosecution instituted in the
name of the law but how much worse was it,
how much more indefensible, if they who at-
tacked cheap knowledge were themselves the mem-
bers of a society for the diffusion of cheap
knowledg:e i If it was with a penny magazine in
one hand that they attempted to strike down the penny
newspapers with the other, it was carrying into the
state the jealousies of trade; it was saying, " We
will give you information, but whoever else gives it to
you, him we will punish and destroy ; we will tell you
about animals and insects, and give you pictures of
ruins and churches, with all such infantine trumpery—
the hobbyhorse and rattle of education ; but whoever
unfolds to you the secrets of your laws, the machinery
of your state, the mighty events that inspire the age
and animate the world, him we have the stamp com-
missioners to prosecute, and the laws of our reformed
parliament to condemn." ( Hear, hear.) But then
came an important question—if newspapers were
allowed to be cheap, would they have good doctrines
propagated in answer to the bad ? He had every
authority for saying they would. (Here the hon.
member quoted a speech of Dr. Birkbeck, in which
he mentioned that Dr. Arnold, of Rugby, Dr. Whately,
of Oxford, and other men of high eminence, were
willing to instruct the poor on matters of trade, &c.,
if the stamp duty were removed.) In fact, they might
perceive by the sale of the Penny Magazine, and of
Chambers' excellent Edinburgh Journal, that the poor
had a disposition to instruct themselves, if the instruc-
tion were only placed within their reach. Nay, what
to others seemed most dry was often to them most in-
teresting ( Hear), for the poor lived by labour and by
trade, and all that enlightened them as to the direc-
tion of labour and of trade had a charm, and even an
amusement, which they were scarcely able to compre-
hend. In looking to France, where newspapers were
so cheap in comparison to ours, and yet where a much
smaller proportion of the poor were educated, they
could not but observe, Ist, that a much larger number of
the eminent men of that country were engaged in in-
structing the people through the medium of the press,
and 2d, the difference in the number of journals in
the two countries devoted to solid instruction upon
useful points. Besides its political papers, Paris had
10 journals devoted to advertisements, judicial notices,
and commercial announcements ; 20 journals devoted
to jurisprudence, 8 to education, 21 to science, and '22
to medicine. Who could doubt that these were of the
most eminent advantage to the people? Who could
assert that this country, embracing a much larger read-
ing public, would not have at least an equal number
if newspapers were equally cheap, and it was -per-
mitted by the intermixture of news to attract the poor
to the graver portions of the journal ? ( Hear, hear.)
But the advantage of cheap newspapers was not only
in giving to the poor such instruction as the news-
papers might contain, but it was even greater in
habituating the minds of the poor to read and to apply
themselves to information generally. It was a re-
markable fact, that nearly all the popular reading so-
cieties in the kingdom were first formed by the desire
to read the newspapers. In a part of the evidence on
the late poor law commission, one very intelligent
witness being asked if he did not think the Penny
Magazine had been useful in giving an intellectual
bias to the poor, answered, " Undoubtedly; but I
think cheap newspapers would do much more good, in
training their minds to the desire of reading, and paving
the way for general information." Thus, then, the ad-
vantages of cheap legal newspapers were, first, that to
every bad opinion a good opinion (in the natural effect of
competition) was opposed—that the poor obtained all
the instruction that newpapers contained—that they
were thereby stimulated to seek other information of a
more solid cast, and he might add, that by newspapers
alone they learned the nature of the laws, and the
punishments forcrime. This, then, was a tax operating
in favour of bad opinion and against good opinion—
operating against information, not of politics only, but
of laws; not against knowledge, but virtue; it gave
perquisites to the gaoler and fees to the hangman ;
sowing the seed in ignorance that they might reap the
harvest in crime ! ( Hear, hear.) The noble lord al-
lowed it to be a bad tax, yet he did nothing to repeal
it 1 ( Hear.) Shame on the reformed parliament if it
sanctioned these laws any longer ! When he looked
round that house, and' observed the apathy with which
they listened to this subject, he could not withstand
drawing this parallel. In the worst times of modern
France, with a Bourbon on the throne, with a Villele
in the administration, when it was proposed by a de-
spotic government to a servile Chamber to tax the
press in France as it was now taxed in England, in
order to prevent the circulation of knowledge, and to
put down by the tax-gatherer the enlightenment they
dared not assail by the soldier, the whole Chamber,
subservient as it was, rose against the proposal ! They
would not war upon knowledge ! Were Englishmen
less free or less enlightened that they should support
with patience that whieh in the French Chamber had
beenrejected with indignation and scorn? In the remarks
he addressed to the house in the session before last he
had proved, he thought, to the satisfaction of the noble
lord, that both by the evidence in this country and that
through Europe generally, they found that ignorance
and crime universally went together ; and that on ex-
amining the education of felons committed to gaol
and sentenced to transportation or death, the vast
majority of criminals possessed not even the elemen-
tary knowledge of reading or writing ; this fact had
been universally borne out by the evidence on secon-
dary punishments—on the poor laws commissions—on
the Sabbath committee, and if this then were true, he
told the noble lord that it was not enough to improve
the laws, to amend the representation, if be continued
taxes which he himself acknowledged were a pre-
mium to ignorance, and through ignorance the avenue
to death. It was said that the schoolmaster was
abroad—he saw his rod, but not his books. They
seemed to reverse the old story of Dionysius ; the ty-
rant had not become a schoolmaster, but the school-
master had :become a tyrant. When Louis X VI.
was condemned to the scaffold, his defenders besought
the judges to recollect by how small a majority that
unfortunate monarch was condemned. " True;" re-
plied the judges, " but it is by a small majority that
the most important decrees are enacted." " Yes,"
said one solitary voice in that assembly ; "but de-
crees, if unjust, can be repealed ; but the life of a
man can never be restored." So he said to the noble
lord. If in his high capacity of Minister of State he
committed some error in mere legislation, the error
could be retrieved ; but if, after being duly
warned, he suffered one peasant's mind to be
misled, and one peasant's life lost, by the dark-
ness and demoralization of these laws, he com-
mitted a fault which could not be atoned--a bad
law might be repealed, but the life of a man could
never be restored. He would say no more of this tax
itself, but would come at once to the substitute he
proposed for it ; he proposed to repeal the stamp duty
on newspapers altogether, and, in the first place, he
suggested the propriety of laying a cheap postage not
upon newspapers only, but upon all tracts, periodicals,
and works of every description under a certain weight :

he proposed that this postage should be equal, what-1
ever might be the distance, so that the remote parts of
the Country should possess the same advantage in ob-
taining knowledge as those more connected with the
metropolis, and therefore requiring information less.
He did not know that on this point he could add much
to the calculations that he had the honour to submit to
the house in the session before last. He begged leave
to say that those calculations bad never been to his
knowledge contradicted or impugned. The debate
was veil widely published ; several thousand copies
were circulated ; it was submitted to many practical
men ; despite this publicity, despite the notice it re-
ceived generally from the press, no contradiction was
given to the facts he urged. He had therefore a right
to assume, until such contradiction was made and
proved, that his calculations were correct.
[ Here the hon. member was interrupted by the
Usher of the Black Rod appearing at the table, and
summoning the house to attend the Royal Commis-
sioners in the House of Peers. After an absence of
about a quarter of an hour the Speaker and the mem-
bers by whom he was accompahied returned. On
taking the chair he stated that they bad been to the
House of Peers and had heard the Royal assent given
by commission to several public and private bills, for
which see Lords' report.]
Mr. E. L. BULWER resumed—ln America, he
Observed, owing to the absence of that tax, newspapers
were so numerous that there was one weekly paper to
every fourth person. He would only take half that
proportion for this country. He would suppose that
if they abolished this tax, there would be a weekly
newspaper only to every eighth person. The result
would be, for the population of Great Britain and Ire-
land, 150,000,000 sheets of weekly newspapers
throughout the year. Now two-thirds of the London
papers (it appeared by the returns) were sent at pre-
sent through the post. Suppose for one moment
that this ratio continued with the increased numbers,
what would be the amount at Id. postage ? Why
the amount would stand thus :—Postage of weekly pa-
pers 416,6661. But this was for weekly papers only.
Now calculate the daily papers, those published two
or three times a week ; calculate also the tracts, the
prospectuses, the pamphlets, sent through the post,
and reckon all these only at as much aga.n—the total
would be 833,3321.—that is to say, the produce would
be just double the amount of the tax he now asked
them to repeal, and this calculation was formed upon
the supposition that the newspapers in this country, if
as cheap as those in America, would yet be only in
proportion to the population one-half of the number of
the American papers, and this must be allowed to be a
moderate calculation, when we consider the capital is
greater in this country, the printers' labour is cheaper,
and that everywhere the appetite for knowledge, even
among the poorest part of the people, is on the
daily increase. But the noble lord made, on a for-
mer occasion, one objection to this plan ; he argued,
that since the newspapers would be sold without the
charge of postage in London, the effect of the plan
would be to tax the provinces for the benefit of the
metropolis. With all due submission to him he thought
he had here suffered himself to be led away by a com-
mon place fallacy. In the first place, the postage was
not a tax upon newspapers, it was the price of car-
riage ' • it was the necessary result of living at a dis-
tance from town that the carriage of anything must be
paid for, not newspapers only, but books, luggage,
parcels of all descriptions. This was the unavoidable
consequence of situation ; and you might just as well
call it a tax to charge a man for the carriage of coals
from Newcastle to London as to call it a tax to charge
a man for the carriage of a newspaper from London to
Newcastle. In the second place, if they thought it a
hardship to pay a penny for a newspaper in the shape
of postage, how much greater was the hardship to pay
4d. in the shape of duty ? if they disliked to tax the
provinces a penny, ought they not to dislike much
more to tax them 4d. ? or did they fancy that when
the cost was one-fourth part of what it was at present,
that they would fancy that they had any right to com-
plain ? Besides, it would in effect weigh pretty evenly
on both the metropolis and the large provincial towns,
for at present not one large manufacturing town could
afford a daily paper. Take away the tax, and every
large town would have its paper ; that, at all events,
the town would enjoy without the burden of post-
age ; and in the large towns many papers would
be devoted to particular branches of commerce or trade,
which would be important to those who lived in the
metropolis, so that if many papers were sent from
London, many also would be sent to it. Thus, then,
by the postage alone, and according to a moderate
calculation, he had attempted to prove that they would
receive double the amount of that trumpery tax ; he
had endeavoured to prove also that the only objection
against it was fallacious. But that he might not seem
wedded to any particular plan, he would now, if the
noble lord wished, concede to him all he could desire;
he would suppose that the postage of newspapers would
not bring in what was expected ; he would suppose
that it brought in nothing, but merely covered its ex-
penses,—nay, he would throw the whole scheme aside
altogether. Well, he should be on equally strong
ground, for by the mere removal of this tax, three
other sources of revenue suddenly arose ; the first, in-
deed, depended also upon the plan of postage—he
meant the profits arising from the postage, not of
newspapers, but of all light works under a certain
weight, all tracts, circulars, &c. He did not think the
noble lord was aware of what an immense source of
revenue this might become. In the first place, look
at all the religious tracts that would be circulated if
they might be sent to every part of the country at Id.
each. Look at the number of societies of every de-
scription, scientific, trading, moral, religious, that would
correspond by such circulars; observe at public sales
alone the expenses sustained in advertising. Every auc-
tioneer, every Robins of the rostrum, would send forth
circulars announcing the treasures he was about to dis-
pose of. Take the prospectuses of booksellers alone.
In a very able letter which had been addressed to the
noble lord by Mr. Whiting, head of a respectable
printing establishment, in the support of postage for
light works, he calculated that of publishers' prospec-
tuses (if they came within the weight admissible)
2,000 postages would be created daily. Another source
of revenue by simply repealing that tax would arise
from the great increase of advertisements. Most of
the newspapers set up would obtain some advertise-
ments, more or less ; some of them would probably be
devoted to peculiar trades and callings, and into such
papers a vast increase of advertisements connected
with those trades and callings would be poured. At
present the reduction of the advertisement duty was
not so profitable to the public as it ought to be, because
the monopoly of the London papers enabled them to
keep up a disproportionably high price on advertise-
ments ; the effect of a vast competition would be to
lower the proprietor's profit on advertisements,to make
advertisements considerably cheaper, considerably more
plentiful, and, therefore, while most advantageous to
the public, most profitable also to the revenue. But
the principal source of profit that would arise to the
exchequer from the mere repeal of this tax, was in
the increase to the paper duty alone, and this, he
was persuaded, would be so enormous, as of itself to
do more than compensate to the revenue. Just let
them compute what the increase of the paper duty
would be. ( Hear, hear, hear.) He supposed that
they abolished the tax, and made papers as cheap as
they were in the United States ; they would have—
should he say as many ? newspapers in proportion to
the population. No, only half as many as there were
in the United States. But there, to every 10,000 in-
habitants, there was a daily paper, selling at least
2,000 copies. He supposed that, in Great Britain
and Ireland, there was a daily paper to every 20,000
inhabitants, selling at the same proportion. What
would be the result ? Why, for a population of
24,000,000 you would have 720,000,000 sheets of paper
published yearly. Now, then,_ papers pay a duty of
225. per 1,000 copies—let him say 20s.—that was
1,0001. for every 1,000,000 papers ; the produce, then,
would be 720,0001. for the paper duty of the 720,000,000
papers ; but at present there were only 30,000,000
papers published throughout the year—that was, the
profit they yielded to the paper duty was only 30,0001.;
deduct that 30,000/. from 720,0001., and there remained
for the extra paper duty, for the new profit to the re-
venue, 690,000/. or about 150,000/. more than the
whole profit of the tax he asked them to repeal. So
that he could now say to the noble lord, " Throw
aside, if you please, the plan of the postage ; believe,
if you like it, that not a paper would be sent to the
post ; believe that not a pamphlet, a tract, or a cir-
cular, but what would be sent by the coach at a charge
of Is., rather than by the post at the charge of Id.
Suppose, too, that not a single advertisement would
be obtained by any of the newspapers, and that
the advertisement duty remained the same, and
yet by the increase of the paper duty alone,
they would gain 150,000/. more than the pre-
sent tax, which they allowed to be a bar-1
rier to knowledge and a premium to immo-
rality. Had he made out his case ? was it necessary
to say anything further ? One or two observations
alone remained : in the first place, he should propose
his resolutions in the most moderate and general terms

possible ; he should merely propose to repeal the stamp
duty on newspapers at the earliest possible opportu-
nity ; he should say nothing about the postage (he had
merely thrown that out as a suggestion) ; the certain
substitute to the revenue was the repeal of the tax it-
self in the increased amount of paper duty, and he was
unwilling that any man objecting to a postage should
pretend thereby to excuse himself from voting, against
the tax upon knowledge itself. If the resolution were
carried, the noble lord would not be put to any imme-
diate inconvenience ; it would only establish the prin-
ciple, which the next session would suffice to carryinto
effect. When the hon. member for Bath last session
brought forward his motion for national education,
what was the reply made by the noble lord to his hon.
friend ? " I doubt," said he, " if a government should
establish education • its duty ought to be, not to en-
force knowledge, hut to give every facility to know-
ledge." He now called upon the noble lord to dis-
charge the duty which the noble lord himself had then
laid down,—he called upon him to give every facility
to knowledge,—he called upon him to remove the
tax ; because it was the great national obstacle to
knowledge. He was no alarmist : he did not behold
a storm in every cloud, or a revolution in every change.
A great nation was not easily made, and a great
people were not easily undone. But oppressed as
they were with financial difficulties—old and new
principles at war,—the elements of their legisla-
tive constitution almost at open discord with each
other ; it was above all things necessary that whatever
changes might be forced by the multitude upon their
rulers should emanate from their enlightenment, and
not from their passion or their blindness. if there
were a spectacle which all true patriots, all statesmen
of large views, beheld with exultation or delight, it
was the gradual rise of a great people into power, by
the necessary and safe consequence of knowledge
alone. ( Hear, hear.) But if, on the other hand,
there was one prospect from which all honest men re-
coiled with dread, it was in times of difficulty and
trouble the advance of the giant force of a democracy
from whom the opportunities of knowledge had been
carefully excluded; who, therefore, had only the sti-
mulus of want, without the perception of relief, and
who were exactly calculated to frustrate the 'objects of
liberty, because they were impatient of restraint.
( Hear, hear.) He called upon the noble lord to pre-
serve them from that danger ; he called upon him to
fulfil the pledge which his public character, for nearly
thirty years, had given to the country in favour of his
attachment to the diffusion of knowledge ; he called
upon him to be alive to the high ambition worthy his
principles and his name ; to open the prison-house of
the mind ; to remove the fiscal chains that now fet-
tered and cramped opinion ; and finding knowledge
the monopoly of the rich, to leave it the inheritance of
the poor. ( Hear.) The hon. member concluded by
moving the following resolution :—" That it was ex-
pedient to repeal the stamp duties on newspapers at
the earliest possible period."
Mr. ROEBUCK, in seconding the motion, ex-
pressed a hope that the Government would not, by op-
posing the resolution, give additional corroboration to
the assertion now so generally advanced, that those
who out of power were the loudest and most energetic
clamourers for the freedom of the press and the diffu-
sion of knowledge, when in power proved their bitterest
and most unrelenting enemies. It would doubtless be
said by the noble lord (Lord Althorp) that in the
present state of the country the tax on newspapers
could not be taken off; but he could not see how the
noble lord could better apply his so much boasted-of
surplus revenue than in the remission of those taxes
which so effectually impeded what was once so much
the professed object of his attention—the diffusion of
knowledge among the lower classes of society. When
the noble lord and his colleagues sat on the opposite
side of the house, and when Lord Castlereagh occu-
pied the Treasury bench, how loud was the declama-
tion, how eloquent the appeals, in favour of the liberty
of the press ; but of what use was that declamation, of
what avail those appeals, if on the very moment those
who made them were invested with power, and
could stand forward as the champions of that press,
they were completely forgotten ? (Hear, hear.)
One of the consequences of the existing tax on news-
papers was the diffusion of most revolutionary doctrines
by unstamped publications. Some years ago a paper
called Cobbett's Twopenny Trash was made the sub-
ject of public discussion for its revolutionary tendency;
but he held in his hand several numbers of an un-
stamped paper published weekly at present in the me-
tropolis, and circulated very widely among that class
of the community on whom its doctrines were likely to
make the greatest impression. (The hon. member
here read from some penny publication a paragraph
headed " The Horseman-Butchers' Attack on the
Unionists," in which suggestions were thrown out for
the adoption of the people, in the event of a civil com-
motion, and in which the most revolutionary doctrines,
clothed in most wretched phraseology, were broached
and boasted of.) Poison of such a character was
every day profusely administered to the lower orders,
and would continue to be so until regular channels of
information and instruction, placed within the reach
of all classes, were provided. He knew that several
of the first literary characters of the day would employ
their pens for the instruction of the lower orders if
they were not withheld by respect for the laws from
starting unstamped publications. To put down the
present unstamped publications was impossible, there-
fore the best way to counteract their revolutionary ten-
dency was to circulate cheap and wholesome know-
ledge at the same price, and leave it to the people to
make their selection. All the societies which had
been established for the improvement of the lower
classes had failed from inability to reach that class in
consequence of the high rate of stamp duty imposed
on the vehicles by which available knowledge could
alone be circulated. The society for the diffusion of
useful knowledge was an instance of that failure. They
had published very learned treatises on hydraulics and
mechanics, and on political economy ; but of
what use were such treatises to that class of the corn_
munity whom the society was established to benefit ?
It was only lately that one of those cheap publications
had recommended the stoppage of labour over all Eng-
land for the space of three weeks. The consequences
of this advice, had it been followed, would have been
dreadful, for the labouring classes in that space of
three weeks would have acquired habits which it would
have taken as many years to cure. It would be in
vain for any government to attempt putting down
strikes or trades' unions by law or by force if such
publications were allowed to continue. It was by in-
struction, and by instruction alone, that such things
could be suppressed. The people of England had
come to such a point that it was impossible to put them
down by the strong arm of the law or by physical
force. It was by instruction alone that this object
could be obtained, and the government prevented the
diffusion of that instruction by the stamp duty. Con-
sidering the slight advantages derived from the stamp
duties—considering that an equal revenue could be
raised by other means--considering how little would
be the diminution of revenue were the stamp duty re-
moved, he asked how ministers could continue stich a
pernicious abominable fiscal exaction ?
The motion was then put—" That it is expedient to
repeal the stamp duty on newspapers at the earliest
period."
Lord AL THORP addressed the house in a very
low tone, and was for a long time inaudible. The
hon. member for Lincoln had complained of the
apathy with which he had listened to his speech, but
he thought that the apathy with which the whole
house had received the speech ought to convince the
hon. member of the disapprobation with which his
scheme was received. In point of fact the hon. gen-
tleman, by his great exertions, had succeeded in ex-
citing himself and nobody else. ( A laugh.) The
house would recollect that last year he (Lord Althorp)
had alluded to his having had under his consideration
the repeal of these taxes, and that when he had stated
that he would not repeal them that statement was re-
ceived with the decided approbation of the house. He
believed that the whole country, as well as the mem-
bers of that house, went even further than he did in
his objections to a repeal of these stamp duties. In the
present state of the country, with such incessant and
pressing demands upon him for the repeal of taxes, he
felt convinced that he should not be doing well were
he to consent to the motion. He did not agree with
the hon. member for Lincoln that any deficiency of
revenue that might be occasioned by the removal of
the stamp duties could be made up by a charge
of postage on the conveyance of letters, for were
such a charge to be made the newspapers would
be sent into the country by a cheaper mode of
conveyance. (Hear, hear.) From all the inquiries
he had made, he was fully convinced that this would
be the case. He was of opinion that both the hon.
members for Bath and Lincoln had exaggerated very
much when they calculated the great increase of pub-
lications that would ensue were the stamp duty to be
repealed. That there would be an increase he had no
doubt, but he had no idea that the increase would be
such as to occasion any sensible augmentation in the
I amount of duties upon paper. In short, were the
stamp tax to be taken off, the country must calculate

upon a very considerable diminution in the amount of
the revenue, though certainly not to the full extent of
all the stamp tax. During the last session, the duty
on advertisements was reduced, and the effect had
been not to increase the revenue under this head ex-
cept to a very small amount. It did not, therefore,
appear to him, if he reasoned from analogy in the case
of advertisements, that taking off the stamp duty
would have the effect of greatly increasing the circu-
lation of newspapers, as it had done in the United
States of America. The hon. member for Bath had
conceived that the stamp duties on newspapers afford-
ed facilities to the publication of cheap papers of an
evil tendency, and he (Lord Althorp) did consider
this point to beynore worthy of notice than any other.
This he had himself conceived, and the fact had had
a great effect upon his mind. The hon. member, how-
ever, had shown in his arguments that as the law at
present stood this could not be prevented ; and yet he
had said that the labouring classes did not care for the
arts, sciences, or literary amusements, but that what
they wanted was what related to their wages, and what
came home to their physical sufferings. Now he (Lord
Althorp) did not see how, in the law as it at present
stood; there could be any thing to prevent cheap pub-
lications explaining the principles which regulated
wages. But then the hon. member had said that unless
such information was seasoned by the news of the day
it would lose all its effect. Here, however, the hon.
member was contradicted by facts, for there were
cheap publications now in existence which conveyed
useful information to the people without any such sea-
soning, and these had a very enormous circulation.
He feared that the amount of the cheap publications
that conveyed mischievous matter to the poor was very
large ; but he was by no means sure that taking off
the stamp duties would diminish the number. He was,
however, perfectly ready to admit that if the calls for
a reduction of taxes were not so great as they were—
that if these calls did not proceed from different classes
of the community, and particularly from the labouring
classes, which were looking more to substantial relief
from physical evi's than to any advantages of improv-
ing the mind—he might be inclined to listen to the
proposition before the house. But as long as such
claims were pressed upon government in the way in
which they were pressed by different members of that
house he felt that it would be exceedingly difficult for
him to bring forward any proposition satisfactory to
that house and to the country at large which went to
the extent of reducing the revenue by so great an
amount. If the house were so inclined he would ad-
mit that it would be an experiment worth trying, but
even then it had not been proved satisfactorily to his
mind that the ultimate effect would be such as had been
predicted by the hon. members for Bath and Lincoln.
Circumstanced as the revenue then was, he could not
venture to make to the house any such pro-
position. But next came the question whether he
ought to pledge the house to come to any resolution
which might bind them upon the subject in a future
session. ( Hear, hear, hear.) He did not think it
desirable. (Hear, hear.) In a general sense he did
not think such pledge to be expedient, but in a matter
of revenue he thought it completely undesirable. He
had no wish to answer all the arguments that had been
brought forward that night ' • but with the doubts that
rested on his mind, and with an advertence to the state
of the revenue, and to the claims for a reduction of
taxes from other parties, he did feel it his duty in the
situation in which he stood to oppose the motion of the
hon. gentleman. He (Lerd Althorp) had been ac-
cused by the hon. member for Bath of inconsistency.
With respect to his being inconsistent, he felt that he
had been liable to be accused on that ground very
often ( A laugh) but it was his duty to argue as he
did, and on this question he had shown no inconsis-
tency, for he had never argued for the repeal of the
stamp duty on newspapers. He would acknowledge
that he might have expressed a wish that the tax could
be done away with, but as a public man he had never
advocated a repeal of the tax, and he was only at the
present moment doing his duty by giving a negative
to the motion before the house.

Mr. HILL was glad to hear the noble lord say that
he opposed this motion as a mere fiscal question, and
that but for his fear of a falling off in the revenue he
might be inclined to repeal or reduce the tax. He.
however, would contend that a larger revenue might
be obtained were the stamp duty removed. He could
not conceive on what grounds the noble lord had said
that a decrease of duty would not occasion an increase
of circulation, for it was a fixed law, an established
rule, that diminishing the cost or price of an article in
demand always occasioned an increased consumption.
The consumption of newspapers in the United States
of North America, compared to the consumption in
England was as five to one ; and were the population
of America equal in point of density to that of
England, the proportion would then be as ten to
one. In the state of New York the proportion
was already as eight to one. Coming nearer home,
he ascertained that in the islands of Jersey and Guern-
sey, where no newspaper duty existed, there were 13
different newspapers, two of which appeared twice
a-week, making in the whole 15 publications in the
week for the small population of those two islands ;
yet from inquiries which he had made, he understood
that in this country it took, on the average, 60,000
persons to support a weekly publication. If the duty
on newspapers were repealed, he thought he might
safely say that their circulation would be increased in
the proportion of six to one ; and he believed also that
the number of advertisements would be increased, for
at present the newspaper duty operated as a bar
against the reduction of the price of advertise-
ments. In America, the rate of charge for adver-
tisements was lid. per line ; in Jersey and Guern-
sey Id. per line; while in this country it was as
high as 9d. per line, after deducting the duty.
The number of newspaper advertisements in America
was twenty to one as compared with the number in
England ; and if the newspaper duty was repealed,
the increase of advertisements consequent thereon
might be calculated at three-halves of their present
amount. Another source of revenue had been already
suggested; he alluded to the postage on newspapers.
In the year 1830, 13,000,000 of newspapers passed
through the London Post-office, and if 7,000,000 more
were added, as the number carried by post in the
country, it would appear that 20,000,000 of newspa-
pers, or two-thirds of the whole number published,
had passed through the different post-offices in that
year. Now, he should propose that Id. be paid for
every paper sent by post; and, to put an end to any
objections that might be made as to the difficulty of
collecting the money, he would adopt the sugges-
tion of a person well qualified to give an opinion on
the subject; he alluded to Mr. Knight, the publisher.
That gentleman recommended that a stamped wrapper
should be prepared for such newspapers as it was de-
sired
to send by post, and that each wrapper should be
sold at the rate of ld. by the distributors of stamps,
in the same way as receipt stamps. He had already
stated that he expected from the repeal of the stamp
duty an increase in the sale of the newspapers in the
proportion of six to one, and he really believed that,
taking into account the increased amount of paper duty,
of the advertisement duty, and the money raised by
the proposed charge for postage, the revenue de-
rivable from six hundred unstamped newspapers
would be equal to what was present drawn from
one hundred newspapers. The following was an ac-
count of the money now received by the Exchequer on
account of 100 newspapers :--Stamp duty, 1/. 6s. Bd. ;
duty on paper, 2s. ; duty on advertisements. Bs. Now
supposing that by the repeal of the stamp duty the sale
of newspapers increased sixfold, but that the number
sent by post, which in 1830 was equal to two-thirds of
the whole number published, remained as before, it
followed that the number transmitted by post would
only be one-ninth of the increased number of news-
papers. Then, out of 600 papers, 66 would only pass
through the Post-office, and the amount of revenue
derived from the sale of stamped wrappers for them
would, after making an allowance of 20 per cent., be
4s. bd., the duty on paper would be six times what it
was before, or 125., and the duty on the increased
number of advertisements would amount to 1/. Thus,
while at present the Exchequer received it. 6s. Bd.
from 100 newspapers, it would, under the plan he pro-
posed, receive as much as it. 16s. bd. from 600 news-
papers. But it was not merely on fiscal grounds that
he was disposed to argue this question. Did the
noble lord recollect how important it was to a com-
mercial community to encourage the diffusion of intel-
ligence through the medium of advertisements and
news in the daily papers ? (Hear, hear.) He for one
should be glad to see the duty on paper and on adver-
tisements repealed, for it did appear a practicable
absurdity for the noble lord to be granting money for
the support of schools and colleges with one hand, and
with the other laying a tax on those who were willing
to purchase education for themselves. (Hear, hear.)
Let it be recollected, too, that the • existing law was
too impotent to put down the unstamped publi-
cations, and that consequently a bounty was given
to the contraband trader. From information which
he had received, he was induced to believe that
the unstamped newspapers had increased to a frightful
extent. This was an evil of vast magnitude, for every

time that the poor man purchased one of these publi-
cations, he did so with the feeling that he was setting
the law at defiance. And who were those who wrote
in these illegal publications ? Persons of desperate
fortunes, reckless of what might happen to them, and
ready at all times to go to gaol, or suffer prosecution.
Could such individuals be safely intrusted with the
teaching of the people in this country ? Were their
honest opinions likely to be in favour of order, of the
institutions on which the particular form of govern-
ment in this country was founded, or of the institutions
on which society itself depended ? Yet the existing
law gave a bounty to this class of writers, whilst it
imposed a tax on the publications of men of respectabi-
lity, station, and education, whose honest opinions
were likely to be in favour of the institutions of the
country. An hon. member had alluded to certain
cheap publications, and among the number the Penny
Magazine, which he characterized as trumpery. He
should be sorry to think that the Penny Magazine was
a trumpery publication ; but if it were, he could not
hold himself free from blame, for that publication was
a project of his own. He wished that he could admit
that the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Know-
ledge had penetrated deeply into the masses of the
people. It had not, nor would the exertions of that or
of any other society be able to do so, unless the works
carried with them the stimulants of news and politics.
He, however, thought that the Society for the Dif-
fusion of Useful Knowledge was entitled to
credit for what it had done. (Hear, hear, hear.)
It had gone deeper into the mass of the people than
any other society whatever, and its publications were
more generally read than any other of
cha-
racter. But he had done this by honest means. If
a- similar
he thought that the law was kept in any particular
state to favour that society, he would not continue a
member of it. The society had taken the law as it
found it, and had availed themselves of it to as great
an extent as they could, and they were disposed to
avail themselves of any new state of the law by carry-
ing on the principle on which they had acted to as
great an extent as the law permitted. There had
been, and he supposed that there were still, in the
country, those who thought it was not good to give
increased means of knowledge to the mass of the peo-
ple, and that they could be more easily governed by
being kept in ignorance. The day, however, for the
assertion of such a principle was now gone by. There
might have been some colour of an argument before
the passing of the Reform Bill, but that bill had al-
tered the case quite. The people had now political
power, and would any man attempt to say that the will
of the people was not law in this country ? Ignorance
might make them the enemies of the government, why
not take such steps as would make them its friends ?
Let them have the means of information, of correct
information and correct reasoning on all matters con-
nected with their interests—that was, with the interests
of the country. No more fit education in a knowledge
on these subjects could be given than that which news-
papers well conducted could afford. They contained
the details of the debates in that house, and what sub-
jects of foreign or domestic interest which were not
brought under parliamentary discussion, and developed
with talent and ability. Let the newspaper then
go to every cottage, let the discussion of every
question be read at both sides. ( Hear, hear.) The
newspapers well conducted, he repeated, would be the
best guides and mentors of the people. They gave
information for which men in every class of society
were indebted ; for how few were there who were
regularly educated in such knowledge as that found
in Paley and other writers of his class by the study of
those works themselves. Many were indebted for
their information in those and other important branches
of knowledge to newspapers. The best way, he
repeated, to reach the feelings of the people, would be
through well conducted newspapers.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM begged to be allowed to make
a few observations on the question. It was an error,
if it was supposed that the unstamped publications
alluded to appeared only in London. During the re-
cess he had travelled over great part of England, and
there was no large town in which he did not find four
or five such publications. To this he would add, that
he had never read one of them which did not shock
him by its violence and its intemperance. The people
having easy access to such publications, and not hav-
ing the means of access to those of a better character,
suffered accordingly. With respect to the duties which
it might be advisable to substitute for those at present
existing, that was a subject for future consideration.
Among other propositions, one which appeared de-
serving of notice was, to impose an ad valorem duty
of twenty per cent., so that a shilling periodical should
pay threepence ; an eighteen-penny, twopence; a four-
penny, a penny, and so on. This would unquestion-
ably be productive of a large revenue. Why did he
desire to see the extensive circulation of cheap publi-
cations supported ? Because he wished to see among
such publications such as would inculcate respect for
government and for the rights of property, and would
turn the minds of men from ideas of outrage and re-
volution. It was unnecessary for him to say that he
had no objection to the fair and candid discussion of all
public measures. What he wished, however, was,
that it should be a fair and candid discussion, and that
means should be afforded to the friends, as well as the
enemies, of government, to spread far and wide their
opinions on such measures.
Mr. E WART thought that the noble lord had
made a very weak defence against the motion of the
hon. member for Lincoln. It consisted in the asser-
tion that he did not think the adoption of it would
enable them to resist the influence of the dangerous
and envenomed publications complained of. All that
the hon. member for Lincoln wanted was, that equal
advantages should be granted to publications calcu-
lated to make a better impression on the minds of the
people, and the noble lord refused to grant them. To
him (Mr. Ewart) it appeared that in every point of
view it would be exceedingly beneficial to adopt such
measures as might lead to a more extensive circula-
tion of periodical publications. It should be remem-
bered that such publications were not restricted to
political and commercial subjects, but that they also
treated on scientific and literary topics. In his opinion,
the greatest benefit which the people could receive
would be by a repeal of the duty on such publications
to facilitate their circulation. The whole duty
amounted only to 57,0001., and surely that was not a
sum to be put in competition with the evil to be re-
medied, and the good to be obtained by its relinquish-
ment. One of the great evils of the present violation
of the law was the circulation of an immense number
of almanacks, many of which contained very perni-
cious matter. He understood that the number pub-
lished last year was not less than 200,000. These
were subjects which were far from being beneath the
consideration of that house. Whatever might be the
fate of the present motion, he trusted that no long
time would elapse before his Majesty's government
would take the important question which it involved
into their most serious consideration.
Mr. GROTE was surprised and sorry that such a
motion should be opposed. 'For his part, he ascribed
much of the misapprehension which prevailed on the
subject of wages, and many of the evil consequences
which had arisen from trades' unions, to the injudicious
matter which appeared in certain of the cheap publica-
tions, and which he really believed never would have
appeared at all if the field were fairly open to all ho-
nest speculators, so that truth and reason might be
disseminated. ( Hear, hear.) He had no doubt that
right principles on all matters would very soon become
prevalent, if talent and honesty had fair play. It was
impossible, with the present stamp acts, that individu-
als of respectabilityovould venture on cheap publica-
tions, and so long as this was the case, they really
must not be astonished if erroneous_principles prevailed.
He looked upon the Poor Law's Amendment Bill as one
of the most important measures that had ever been
brought before a British Parliament ; but he very
much doubted whether the poor, had they the oppor-
tunity of imbibing correct notions through the medium
of a cheap press, would have been misled as they had
been on the subject by erroneous statements, which
really would not bear the light or stand the test of
reason. He did not wish to prolong the discussion,
but before he sat down,he must be allowed to express
his opinion, that if the noble lord opposite would ex-
s of the Exchequer,
was generally sup-
pe rocs iesde
toneo b he ael
of
mthe ion gtoe ncuhi tayo
ee
lwhichlor
he did not think he would, after all, find it so very
difficult to obtain a substitute for a tax so impolitic.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the resolution 5B
Against it 9O
Majority against the resolution
SCOTCH AND IRISH PAUPERS.

On our return to the gallery we found Sir S.
WH A LL E Y addressing the house ; but from the
noise made by the rush of strangers, we could not
gather the import of his observations. From his re-
suming his seat so immediately, we presume that the
hon. gentleman postponed his motion, which stood
next on the list, for leave to bring in 4, a bill to Repeal
an Act passed in the last Session of Parliament, as far
as relates to imposing the Expenses of Removal of
Scotch and Irish Paupers back to Scotland and Ire-

land, upon the respective Counties in which they nig
become chargeable."
POOR LAWS FOR IRELAND.

At the solicitation of Mr. LITTLETON, Mr. FEnocl
O'CONNOR postponed his motion for a committee to
inquire into the state of Ireland, with a view to enact
a system of poor laws for that country.
__ IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT. _ .

Mr. FREDERICK POLLOCK moved for leave
to bring in a bill to abolish arrest for debt, as to ail
debts contracted after the Ist of January, 1835, =le"
the debt be founded upon or secured by a bill of a"
change, a promissory note, bond, or other security in
writing. The hon. and learned gentleman said, he
' should delay the house with very few observations in"
deed in that stage. They were all aware that, upo';
this subject, a commission had sat for a long time, and
presented a report ; but with the statements thereis
made or details given he was not then going to tres t uible
them. It appeared, however, from that reports .;- r
by the law, as it originally stood, a person was liab
to arrest only for an injury accompanied by force;
and that arrest on a contract debt was wholly an ink)
vosfwoeanhrltefcai,oethnoeasrnaotbchif modern practice ; and he (Mr. Pollock
could safely state, that the avowed object of the e 5"/
isting practice—namely, the security of the persosi %
the debtor—was not the real one, inasmuch as it fai'a,
• in almost ninety-nine instances out of the hundre
The real object was, by this process of arrest, to en't
sacrifice,
fiuti nchgeeeh,dt 1
ni
from amet paymentiusut
mt
haadmit,
mf unfortunateiitn
i potrhfi
asatondtmheeeb
imprisonment
present
individual
obtain
taaatli tnehriti,
amount from the pockets of pitying relatives. Ever;
syste
called loudly for amelioration. (Loud cries of "Fl
hear.") hear.") He was one of the commissioners who had tab•e;
the evidence contained in the report. He should state
that they were not unanimous in their opinion upon th,ae
report—that one of the commissioners differed from tp
rest, but that the majority were for a much more exte..,,";
sive change, and recommended that the legisiatwp,
should go beyond what he then felt it his duty to prtrs-a
He did not think it became him, as an individuat Of
humble member of that house, to broach a toetee(ll
much more extended scale, which, to work easily an
safely, would require new machinery of full and effect
tual powers. Indeed, it was only from the prosper:
of another and a better measure failing for the Fret
sent, that he was induced to bring forward his prese',`,.
bill, which he freely admitted—which he wished it o',
be understood—he himself regarded as of a partial ann,
inadequate character. ( Hear, hear, hear.) But i;
was still something by way of amelioration—it llrt
some homage shown, some advance made, to the rigl%
and common-sense principle, that debts, simply "'
such, ought never to be the subject of arrest. ( Henri
hear, hear.) He did not propose to go further a
present than the plan proposed in his notice of motion,
worhsi
eahfemuch
bill, extensive
toepnri(l,isieipe. • %: -,
net se m,(e)
proposed
by
machinery'.
ri a 0 epr r Yo
somet
because, as he before stated, it could not be effectually
one connected with the government. He hoped the,
the house would be induced to agree to his measure
so far as it went, which was to abolish arrest for debt
on mesne process, unless secured by a bill of exchange'
promissory note, or bond, one case alone excepted,
which he would mention. The house would fl
agree with him that it would be necessary to Part,
against anyabuse of the indulgence proposed to be gra%
ed, and one of the clauses of the bill vested the power f
a section of the courts of Westminster or in a Judg,e_ t°,,
couldlsafely done
only withoutbe advantageously
causing to be arrested any party, provided it was nls...%ce
appear that he was about to run away from the .17ther
of the courts, to transfer his goods, or to do anY At,
act which would deprive his creditors of their 'With
(Hear, hear.) He owned he looked forward im..
more than common satisfaction to the time whenue,
prisonment for debt alone would be held in abhortr:to 3
when crime and fraud would be the only passPerlainy,
gptwhrs: i:ensuoilucdnsl, andclumsiest
spimei
tsiatwendh
contrivances
hetmrneiirtNs.eaftdonh—rttfisnteeph,t
pharuaredtnslasyele:
d,iee.rd with v 1 ' _ In
his opinion, imprisoning a man for deb(tClcheaseanleerted
object which was professed to be held in view. cl
hererecov
wasery oefnteh
ofe debtit s ;
worst an dfei
at t
amaderes) nohe
between
and the unfortunate. (Hear, hear.) With these that
servations he would conclude, merely observing ..., 0
future stage, and that to any alterations in the cl1:7-n
the principle could be mortelhetoihui .11 it
though
uet ghghe a
lrl ever
el
gallery.
discussedwrhyee .r
eP so obtainedl
n : '..antt I 111
I any
he was quite open. If the house should be of °p gay
that the bill ought to go further, he begged t? itS
wish.that he(
Hear,
forea r , onehecßehal
rNws. ha)Gos mentioned. uasTlaudlididei,mb hon.ost cordially ial
learnedl concuryg ee t
ilentsre
np ontmr concludedpornn.seeAsofa
hßwboyhANi.asking leave to bring in a bill for t
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said a few vierds'
ester
ttreng (utibty,
hon. and learned members in favour of the abolitiosh,
imprisonment for debt—though there were so ,rnit,
theorists, well-meaning no doubt, in favour 01..5 of
they must permit one who could boast many
his do
practical experience in business, to express hi
toad an
as to the wisdom of any such measure. He nthose
entirely different anticipation of its results 0
swiheiree ategrgeeatt matantyhecapseres
—that
rhesratotal entertained n
iteadl
believedl
would
the
hty severalew felaueitlrd i
tradersen
pahe nownth.ho
eail
nen
ddptohhn learned aactrnoonxueendontfdrgyi
lee.osi it 1
T i it
impose..•
but througho
the
great
of the debtor. It was, however, one f , ,
the public syt.S
misfortunes of the present day, that
to the bee
pathy, in all criminal cases, was extended
doer ; while the poor industrious man hsiswa
_ll, per;
cause
ely
hreobabpepd,eaolerdindtoiretchtley
attributiveswindle livii,..ndailive.
property
yre it lvasuttetra
perso,..,
,n..ttethri'lls
quently denounced as hard-hearted andho 'bad:elle:
tire
ept
impossible
bi
alcarriedeesst that
a t systemtthrias bill,deef
c theo tuhledeeya wouldbnet
rycarried
;a
rfbreirereda itk
was
~,c r
edit
country without credit, and who would tire
when there was no remedy whatever for
was exaggerating the alterationtry 00
by this bill in the credit system of the cone.editor from ar-
object of it was simply to prevent acr debt, theree b°
'
being no voucher in the shape ofthe
Mr. POLLOCK interposed. He thowoufghdtepbtopase
resting his debtor on his own oath or honll
would 0;4
for it. When he had proved his debt
He wished to do away with that
country alone enjoyed, for in no other partn
the Ifie
would the body of a debtor be detained o
oath of his creditor alone. stated
have the benefit of arrest, if benefit it courldwhbeichcaltibiso
cured many of his objections, and those Whiter, dig'
prevailed in his mind might, perhaps, be e
llle
Mr. BARING resumed—What had been , still
cussed on the second reading. (Hear, hear''credi-
would ask the house in what manner could the ton
tor make out the declaration of his debt e:'eeiTered,
oath ? The present system should remain oriaoautrl
if stability in the trading transactions of the e,,sa of
was to be looked to. He dissented from the vlvforey
the hon. and learned member, and would, Cher ,
oppose the introduction of the bill.
or ~ Oh •'r
Mr. RICHARDS rose amid loud cries 1
bation of the measure then beforeiet
elio_s'
t the trade Of
position was founded on a kno h 4,2 to warrant hinl
the country--sufficient, h `dutywould
had introduced the hi?
aro'
and learned gentlemanatathos and force on the h h 0
and said he was most anxious to recordoh!! digipsprop.:
hree un to rtunate debtor, but did,
ships inflicted onet
might
n i theght cdoduartsee
with
ieltghfhegtl t
diot
think at all of t
(Hear.) i,l\l-ies"l'lh'flr gentlemen of his o,j/it
hers a
r°' ° should be recollected that mem- aid
be
pa.,
' gave
no credit (Laughter)—they - far au-
the bar
ipt nif
ssion to exclaim against irepris'nin of
(Increased laughter.) Far- cis)
money:
~mr gicharnie
mmosetnseinriotruasdeev.ils.He ( ..
h deceived and tc)disaPpuprsouinet.ed Tcrheed:o
to se
rico, •:°l' 'cc
to the house. The present bill, if car
w_.,id deprl ~
_ _ll.,esiteread Y!... j-
d Jr te
s.e" ft wage
the creditor of his just means of re
BAs
try.
resent
fhiPona°rdri di:laeolbskyt; s.rbour et by itty
bad debts
than
was only a motion to inroduce •Tne. par,
fipearromfedancurtt.c,wt
ciavanesuniciTtfh theLiwtlhailetheß
F E businessß o u s ofs ot hil.berei ,
itisiethe
One pr d
0.5.
bie ti not eons
tdieetualianr,tli the
however,house forstr
uacnky eonsh iin,dera
which
tirely overlook. It seemed to be "1..,ne but swan
opponents no un hoot
lers contracted debts.
Where circumstances, vy „attie!
divide
als pressd down f
would be well to errelve fro
well known there we'll the
It was nownso t
eed7oau ni
dbdtoenhficonetgt the
übill
rtehaetry:toertehewepraei:
anforcti eprela;
gild
of imprisonment ?
to
interfere between there .a to
the house 0
beincvaersrtieedd oni Rtihtehouctrethdietopro.wetortt hoci
f. the present law.- It had been sa' °file'
ld f Scotland ill °Sodee'
what he stated.
• Let hon. members look to tors
a why 0
where trade was extensively carried on, an
sin ,0
was found the protection sought to be co I,,,iittg ti
England. He was not, however, for dePrt44ll4) e•
creditor of the due means of obtaining the., it bil,
what was found due to him. Let him obtgfrhigosm
ptrraids.eatag
sale of the goods, and not by grinding it out of 1
rdiegnoiu

At 444