The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-13 00:00:00

IRISH TITHES.

Mr. LITTLETON moved the order of the day for the
second re,dinz of the Irish Tithes Bill.

Mr. WILKS a•ked whether it was intended to force
the measure forward without even that degree of inf o ma-
Lion which the House always cinsidered necessary upon
'natters of much inferior importance? He Prot-sted
strongly agai ,st such a proceeding.
Mr. WARBURTON objected to the mode in which no
•ss th to a million of money had b en thus unexpecti.dly
screwed Out of the pocke's of ibe people, but rejoiced that
the p..inciple was established, that, if this country was
deterinito d to force the religion of a small minotity up. ri
a 1r
'dry of the people of Irelaud,this country must
t
pay ie n t
.—( Hear. )
i Ltii. TTLETON hoped that the principle of th,
iilg.;
Bill would not he discussed on the mere motion that do
rder of the day be read. The amount in the Bill w s
certainly a nollion,but it was not at all probable that an -
thing like that sum would be required.
Mr. HINE termed the proposed grant of a minim,
monstrous and extravagant. Perhaps so monstrous au
extravagant a proposition had never been submitted ti
Parliament. After their mismanagement of Ireland, h.
wondered Ministers were not ashamed to ask for th,
money. He insisted that they ought to be impeached I,
their measures of last session, by one of which the Kin
had been made the great tithe proctor and collector it
Ireland, contrary
to the law of the land. Beaidoi,

attempt bad been so futile; only te,ooca. ,tit of In.! (10P4
ten recovered, and that, accordin; to the tt. „rid
Leatucti Member for Dublin, at the cost of 25,000/. if
this system were to proceed, there could be nothing too
,;tliculous for Ministers to bring forward. The Bi I pro-
ce.,fol to be a measure the object of which was to accon,
plish the recovery of tithes. But was that really the
o,ject? Vas it not, on the contrary, intended to confirm
by that Bill the ascendancy of the Established Church iR
Ireland, which already enjoyed such vast revenues? In-
.tead of granting a million for such a purp •se, at the pre—
sent moment, or in times like the present, should they not
rather occupy themselves with inquiring whether Ilie
Established Church ought to be permitted to continue in
possession of its present enormous wealth ? If the
Noble Lord would put upon the table of the House an
annual estimate of the stun really necessary to provid- for
the maintenance of the ckray of the Established Church
in Ireland, he should not object to the adoption of such
means as might be necessary for making the requisite
provision, on the condition that a proper arrangement
should lie at the same time made respecting the property of
the church.

Mr. LITTLETON thought that on a former occasion
he had laid b,fore the House details amply sufficient to
sat;sfy every Hon. Member, and to supersede altogeth,r
the necessity of again troubling the House. The Hen.
Member for Middlesex hail complained that sufficient in-
formation had not been laid before the House. Now he
was at a loss to see what information could be required
blond that contained in the estimate, and the pap, ,s by
,veich it ,vas accompanied. The Non. Member had fallen
into a grand error if he supp,ise,i that the money required
was only for the compensation of the clergy; it was no
such thing—it was for the Lay Impropriators. The
question resolved itself into this, would the Parliament,
ir would they not, support property in Ireland, and yiel.l
it the necessary protection—not merely the prop rty of
the church, hut property generally ? Sinee the com-
mencement of the present session there had been as
litany as 210 applications to the Irish Government for
nilitary assistance to aid in the collection of the
f, ,e light Hon. Gentleman then went into the par-
,:culars of the affray at Middleton, in the county f Cork,
,nd into several of the cases that occurred in I(ltenry
end other pacts of Ireland He had no difficulty in
saying, that if the present Bill was not pas•ed, war, in
is most alarming form, must be the immediate c,mse-
pence, and the most grievous sufferings to itidividue.is of
.11 classes must ensue. Such was the stve of thins at
the present moment in Ireland, that within the last three
it four days, a process server was in such imminent d inger
-if being assassinated, that bad he not been lodged in the
county gaol as a place of security, no power in that
.aoutry could have saved him. As to the am•iiint which
formed the principal object of the Bill, it certainly was a
million, but he did not think that so much would he
necessary. He entertained very little doubt that hat
above 600,0001. or 700,000/. would be r, goired. The
,ithes of a sinele year did not exceed 670,000/. The
lion. Member for Middlesex asked for security to gua-
rantee the repayment of the million now prop ised to he
granted. He thought that the Bill offered good security
or that purpose, and he was sure the House would :igis e
vith him, and not with the Hon. Member, in that /pinion
it least. He would repeat, that unless they were pre-
pared to agree to the present measure, tin must be
irepared for bloodshed—for a civil war, with all its
aggravations, during the whole rime from the rising
Parliament until its re-assemblage. Supposing, then,
hat the Bill should prove unsuccessful with the House—
in event he could not contemplate without the deep st
,pprehension—he must then prepare for the painful ditty
if using those powars which resided in the Executive for
the repression of disorder. The duty would be most dis-
'ressing, but it was one from which he should not shrink.
He should be prepared to direct the whole force of the
c instabulary body, and even of the at my, against the
-e-istance which had been raised to the levy of tithes, for
.vith them was bound up the whole property of the
muntry-7411 must share the same fate.

Mr. HARVEY was clear in the opinion that the measure
of
dealttlae
with
r
reforming it ?
esi
its use of one
,hen before the Horse would act as an encour 'gement to
nni r):
naasgad tnei:de.aynh
goTi
own Inct eeohyma
atleba
theylofkoue rtd
eh
esta
rod
By
oillion and a half—an establishment not of the slightest
sfibitlxnai sinnhwegmeh a:i'ntnn
dt'm' :nip, Senlirnirineenliraal
dvantage to more than half a million of the inhabitants.
What would be the next application to Parliament ? Why,
.vtian landlords found their rents were falling, they Inial
nothing to do but come to the House, and sure that an
inconqusrable combination against rents had been formed,
hat n thing could at present be oiitained from their
enants, awl that they must request of Parliament to re-
eognise--such would be the delicate phrase—a loan for
five years to meet the emergency.—(H ar, hear.) But
ad all that come upon them as a matter of surprise? Had
Government no intimation of the approaching stem ?
Were there no symptoms to warn them of the danger of
.:rideavouring to oppress nine tenths of a people for the
advantage of the remaining tenth ? If they vent on
vith Bills such as that, they might rest assured that they
mould have nothing but complaints of the non-perfortnance,
.f contracts—the case of tithes was nothine but the non-
oerforulance of a contract. If the clergy of Ireland were in
listress, why did they nit apply to those who wore the
.acne cloth? The E•tablished Church was the United
Church of England and Ireland, and there was a larg- fund
n this country applicable to any of the purposes of reii-
zion—lie alluded to Queen Anne's bounty. It might be
.aid that that fund, though it amounted to 1,500,0004
vas not applicable to any but defined purposes, and c,uld
of he diverted from those. Perhaps the ]douse would
,ecollect that it was only two sessions ago when 60 0001.
f that fund was taken for the improvement of the Aroll.-
•oiscorl Palace on the opp .si,e side of the river. The
'Lind might be diverted into such channels as that, and in
oder that the turrets and the battlements of Lambeth
eight overawe that House. It would have been much
nore expedient and equitable to have had recourse to that
und, and then, indeed, there would have been some chance
.f repaym-nt from the Irish clergy, for their brethren at
his side of the Channel would have known how to manage
the matter.

Mr. SHAW agreed with the Hon. and Learned Member
sho had just spoken, that the principle upon which G
vernment price ded was hail, and that it woull be a source
f continuing the violation of the law in Ireland. Toe
ause of the present d. licit, anti of the present item being
iernanded, was the declaration of the Noble L•tril (the
Chancellor o! the Exchequer), that if the clergy did not
titerfere, and forbear to sue for tithes, he would be him-
.eif accountable for the arrears of the two list year, anti
or the amount of tithes for the present year. the
Government and followed up rigorous measures, tithes
were paid; but wh n oppost, ~nd conic dictory ocla-
nations were issued, to the effect dist G versitnent would
andet take to pay them, the consequence was resistance on
he part of th ti he payers, which produced the necessily
f the present application.
Mr. MORE 0 FERRALL supported the second read-
in, of the Bill.

An HON. AIEMBER (whose name we could not learn)
.aid that what the lion. Alen-I,er tor Abdolesex a•ke.d tor
.vas very proper—that the matt r might be defer, ed
for a
ew hours, in oilier to examine the Bil , and const ter its
t,-.tails. He was surprised that is e Right Hon. Gentle-
...in could have refused so reasonable a demand, prcieu-
arly as it did not in any wiy involve the Liss of toe rues-
.ure. He could not give his support to the Bill.
Lord EBRING'f ON said, that if he thought with an
I ..n. ami L-a'ne i Member wh .pike a hide w ile ago
',Mr. D. W. Hine:), that the measure would lead to a
,•ontinued violation of t•e law, he would not support it,
ether would lie support it if he t ought as t e lion.
tlenther for Ali dle.ix dui, that it wool encourage rum,
ain and Ening oil (linger to the church.
HUAIE in explanation. In alluding to r',,e danger
hat threatened the Church, what I said was,
that Parlia-
went, to keep off that danger, should '.mtnediately take
t.ito consideration the abuses of the Irish Chu,.
.11 hment. esta-
Lord EBBING TON—He. could not supp in the mea-
sure if he thought, as some other Hon. Aleinhers did, that
it would be a tax on the people of England, and a burden
obe home by them merely for the rein fof those who
sere in d. ht. lle was, hut. ever, convinced that the pro.
aimed measure would be a relief to the Irish clergy, and an
Wucemen, to the I, ish landlords to relieve themselves and
toeir tenants from the state they were in, caused by disputes
&bout tithes.

Mr. M. OTERRALL begg,d to say a word or two in
explanatt, n. On a firmer orca ion, when Hun AI inhere
iijecti-d to any buroen of this sort being thrown gin liish
i'rot,stant landlords, he then staled th .t Protestau. land-
..irds should not be the first to complain ; and he ad 1,0,
hat he relieved Cathoile landforns would rather consent
,o bear their patt of the burden, tlan see Ireland thrown
mto the stite it was in last year.
Mr. \VARRE said, as he thought that !he grant wculd
iltiulattly tall on the p ogle of this country, he could not
idp recording his dissent it.
Mr. AGLIONBY could not allow the Bill to pass any
,r,•ge without iteclat Ina his' wont s.-rioun opposition to it.
de considered the principle ol the Bill a bonus to the
lolation of property, instead of being
',action to it,
waythlng like pro.

Lord A LTHORP WAS anxious to state the eircutustanr,N
.der which he considered it the duty of 17,,verurne.it to
iriog forw,trd toe resent question. It, had beset argued by

those Members who had s'p,:ken against thia measure, tiot
the Governmet t bad ',fought forward this measure in
consequence of the failure at the measure which had been
brought fot ward at the commencement of the session to
insure the collection of tithes ; and one of the t bjections
bronyht to the Coercion Bill itself was that i, was meant
to he the means by which tithes should be collected. They
(his Majesty's Ministers) had always consistently objected
to that view. They said that the Cosreion Bill was only
intended 'or the tranquil ization of Ireland ; and to show
that such was the intention of Government, lie himself
had stated that the Government proposed to introduce
measure which would rrndet the collection of titles unne
meaty. It could not then he said that the Corteion
Bill hail failed as a means of collecting tithes, for it
never waft intended for that object. If the Government
had thought proper to make use of the Coercion Bid foe
the purpose of collecting tithes, he (Lord Althorp) was
persuaded that it would have been found eff etual for
their collection, bur he would at the same time say,
that if they hail made use of it for oat purpose, they
(the Government) would have teen guilty of the grossest
breach of taith.—(Hear, hear.) Now, when he looked
• to the present state of Ireland, I e found that the Coercion
Bill had had tt e effect of establishing the pe lee in that
country. but he alio, found, that as soon as that Ise ice
was established, tie processes for the collection of the
tit' es were again set on foot; and that the consequence
lilt ly to ensue wag, that the effect of the coeicion should
be rendered void by those processes. It was on this ac-
count the Government thought it necessary to bring
forward a measure which would cause those pro-
cesses to cease; for they were convinced that if they
allowed those proceedings to go t.n, the 'mischief
would continue to increase.—( Hear, hear.) The
question they had then to consider was. whether, when
they made this advance to the clergy of Ireland. they had
a fair and legitimate prospect of being repaid ?—(Hear,
hear.) He (Lord Althorp) would never ask the House to
accede to this measure, if there was no prospect of repay•
merit. The money was to be advanced to the clergy of
Ireland, and they became, in the first place, the debtors.
It might be asked what means the clergy had to pay this
money ? He (Lord Althora) hau stated the mode, on a
former night, by which this money was to tie repaid.
This advance was only meant to anticipate the sums which
were to be raised under the Composi ion Act, and which
wnuld he raised under that Act in the manner least one-
rous to the people. It had been said that this measure
would not succeed in the object into titled. It was possible
that it might fail, and that the clergy would not be able
to recover one penny under it. But he (Lord Alttiorp)
believed that there was not one gentleman on the opposite
side, however hostile to the tithe aystim, who did not
concur in opinion that, as far as regarded the present in-
cumbents, they were entitled to the tithes. He though',
del efore, that it was the unisersal opinion, that whether
the clergy were to recover the money due to them by the
present mode, or by any other, they had a demand upon
the country for an advance, whatever difficulty might occur
in the recovery of it. He had no doubt, however, but it
would be recovered, It w•s perfectly clear that the pr. s-nt
incumbents could not he allowed to suff r, and that in what-
ever manner the funds had to be raised, they roust be
raised from the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Whe-
ther the money was to be raised by a land t ix, or by a
composition, was another question. He, however, thought
that the latter would be the more equitable mode. It
could not, however, he laid upon the people of the United
Kingdom gamer Ity, but on the people of Ireland alone.
He had already said that the Government could not be
justified in asking the House to give this money as a
grant, and he repeated that it was merely meant as a loan.
Hun. Gentlemen had said that he (Lord Althorp) was
bound in honour to carry this measure thri ugh the
House. That he denied. He had merely stated his In-
ti ntion to bring the measure forward, and to do all be
could to carry it through. He did not bring it forward
as an amendment on the Coercion Bill ; and he had stated
when the Coercion Bill wis before the House, that he
meant to bring forward a measure to the effect of that now
before them —(Hear )
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said, that although he had
some difficulty in coming to the same opinion with the
Nubte Lt-rd in retard to this measure, still he thought it
not only incumbent on the Noble Lord, but that he would
not be acting consistently if he dial not tiring forward this
measure. The question was one, not of expenditure, but
whether the property of the Church of Ireland should or
should not continue to be property. The present question
was not only whether there should remain any property
to the church, but whether there should remain any to
fat men ; and the Government haying cho-en this way by
which the funds for the support of the Established Church
shi uld be collected, although he (Sir R. melt-) felt a
strong objection to the mode, still he would suppoit it ; -
and be not only thought that it would have been inedn-
sistent with the N,hle Lord's views if he haul not i rought
it fin ward, but that it was the duty. of the House now to
adopt it.

Mr. RUTHVEN could not vote (or a grant which went
to the support of a church which had been forced upon
the I erple and su-tain. d at the point of the hay net.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON ground,cl his reasons for
the vote which he should give in tavuur of this me sure,
not on the arguments adduc d by the Hon. and Leini. d
Gentleman, but on ;lie opinion given by his Noble Friend
(Lord Aithorp) that this money was advance.' not as a
gin, hut as loan, and that measures would he taken for
the recovery of the whole amount thus advanced If he
were not assured that the whole sum would be repaid, he
would not give it his support. He was of opinion that
this measure should only be considered as an advance fur
the present relief of the Church, and not as a rrh, f to the
landlords. R lying, then. on the statement of tne Noble
Lord, that the money was merely a loan, and that there
was sufficient security for its repayment, he would give
his supp..rt to ti e measure; while he at the same time
declared that if lie could for a moment consider it in the
light of a gift, he %you'd I e the first to oppose it.
Colonel TORRENS would vote for the present measure.
He thought it was impossible to extinguish the desire for
Church re'orm which now existed. The great body of
the Dissenters were bent upon a reform in the Church
Establishment, and it was impossible to extinguish that
desire. He did not, theref re, as a Church Primmer,
see that he was precluded from voting for this measure.
Considering, then-tote, that this was only a loan on the
property or the Church of Ireland, and that if the arrears
due were not adequate to meet the amount, it would be a
debt on the popery of the Church generally, be would
vote for the measure.

Mr. O'REILLY thought that they owed a debt of
gr itituoe to the Coveinmelit for bringing forward a mea-
sure which would introduce a system that would pu• a
stop to rc.ueb of the diaturbance and bloodshed which bad
lately distraoted Ireland. He protested :tgainst i a being
raid mat he or any other It Minim wish, d by this m. asure
to put money in he pockets of the landlords, at the ex-
petit; of the people of England. He did not vote for the
measure with either the wish or the hope that the money
would not be recovered. He wits tore that the Chute,

property of Ireland would be ample security for the m..nry
advanced.

Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY would think it his duty to
give this int-astue Lis mmt decidA oppfisition.

Mr. E. J. STANLEY would vote fur the measure, on
the suppos.tion that there was an easy mode of recovring
the m• ney. But it a doubt .xisted as to the certainty ..f

recovery, he hoped a el use would be inserted in the all,
by which the produce of the first sales of the church
property would be appropriated to the repayment of the
money.—(Heir )
Mr. D. BROWNE felt it his duty to vote for the Rill.
ne hoped that in the next session the House wculd do
their duty on this subject. Ii they thought that the
Forrty [it the church establisd meet of Leland ought to
be diminislie.! and applied to other purposes, they would
support it e proposition of some independent Member to
that effect, and thereby arm Ministers with a power which
thry did not at present possess.
Mr. HOWARD trusted that the prophecies which had
been hat sided that this million would never be repaid
would nev rbe verified. But he saw no other justifiable
course than to advance the requited loan.

The order of day for reading the Bill a second time
was then lead. _ _ _

I.I'rTLETON moved that the Bill be now read
second time.
riUME should have felt his duty to wove as an
amendment that the Biil he read a second time that ay

three month 4; but am the Right Hon. the Chief Secrrtai;

for Ireland had observed that there was inforn.ati,n cm:
the table of which it was .tesirable that Hon. Member%

should avail themselves ; and as many of them, also, had

DIA ['mitered the contents of the Bill, he would move tha,

it he read a second time on that day wrek. By gene' ai
admission it appeared that the church establiOment w th,

cause of all tie gli,turbances in Leland. So evidi-nt wa,

this, that a N,,ble Lord had been under the ncce.sity
issuing a proclatriat.un to prevent tom er priieei dings to;
the recovery of tithes in that country. Did not this shoo
that the people of Jr. land were so aveise to the pa) nu nt
of tithes that all the mtli'aty power and a the unee•nsti—
tutional power with which his Majesty's Government wa,
inve-ted had proved insufficient t" coerce them ? H,
would ask the late Chief Seer, tary whether that most die,.
giacetul coercive measure of last 8,41i/in had been pr,dite-
five of any benefit ? ThA Rght Hon. Gentleman had
said that the pow,rs which he then claimed would
bite to vindicate the law. Had he dune 50 ? Had nt,t

tnonth after month shown the cot.trary ? He was Cur-.
pried the Noble Lord and his colleagues had not taken
le,son from the failure of the Right Hon. tienttem.,
anri that they had not come down and proposed the only
measure which would restore peace and goodwill towards
men in Ireland. Instead of the present Bill, taking from
the people if England a million of money for the support
of the Irish Church. they ought to consider bow that
Church might he modified so as to meet the circumstances
of the times. It was admitted by all who were acquainted
wi. h the anti. ct that it would be a gift, not a loan ; and
let it h. remembered that the money wis to be raised
from the pe ple of England, whose greatest anxiety was
to be relieved from taxation.

Mr. CORBETT ob-erved that the Noble Lord ortPn'i'e
had fully, clearly, and fairly stared, that he could n•t do
le•s than bring fro ward the present measure. If the Noble
Lord had gone still further, and had said that this was the
fist instalment of a salary to the Irish clergy, and that
tithes should never be collected again, he should have had
his (Mr. Cotibett',.) vote. He was sorry th.t the Noble
Lord had not done so ; for he was sure that there would
never be peace in Ir. land again, while tithes were collected
in any s° ape. If such a promi•e had been made, hi. eon-
ftti.o nts, and the people of England generally, would he
happy to make the sacrifice required of them. Af'er
having vo,eff so many millions for the benefit of the West
'Lodi s, ought they to grudge one million for the
benefit of Ireland 2—( Hear, hear ) From the moment
that the Ciiholic Emanripation Bill passed, every rational
man must have been convinced that the church establish..
m-nt of Ireland could not long be maintained. Means
ought then to have been immediately taken for reducing it
in an equitat•le manner. He hoped, however, that that
would soon be the course adopted, and he especially trusted
that this system of tithes would be entirely abolished.
Mr. Sergeant PERRIN observed, that it was plain that
the clergy in Irehnd ought not to be left without support;
and that it was equally plain that tl.e Tithe Cotrpo.ition
Act and other measur. s were insufficient for the purpose
of securing it to them. It was evident, therefore, that a
measure like the present was in-ispensable ; as this was
not a time at which it would be found convenient to esta-
blish a permanent system.
Mr. HALCOMB was prepared to support the Bill.—
(Hear, hear.) H.- recognised in that cheer the voice of the
Hon. Member for North Wiltshire, who, whenever lie (Mr.
H.) rose, thought proper to interrupt him in that irregular
manner.

Mr. METHUEN appealed to the Speaker, whether he
had not a right to say •' Hear ?" Until that Right Hon.
Gentleman told him he had no such right, he would can•
tinue to exerehe it, notwithstanding the way in which the
Hon. Member for Dover bad done him the honour to mark
the ejaculation.

HALCOMB declared, that when he made the
ohservation, he had not the slightest idea in what
direction to cast his eye, although the Hon. Memher's
voice was perfectly familiar to his ear.—(A laugh.) He
could assure the Hon. G.ntleman, that what he had said
hid been uttered in perfect good humour, and he hoped it
would be so received.—(Hear, hear.) He then pro-
ceeded to show, by a reference to the provisions of the
Bill, that the million in question was charged on the
bind, and made payai•le ultimately by the land. Not-
withstanding any odium which might attach to the at• p,
he felt it to be h a bounden duty to vote for the relief
which it was proposed to extend to the Protestant clergy
of Ireland.

The Howte then divided—.
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The Bill was then read a s.cond time, and. after a
short conversation between Mr. Witxs and Mr. LIT.
TLETON, was ordered to be committed on Wednesday.
Mr. HUME gave notice, that on the motion for going
into the Committee on the Bill, he would move to refer it
to a Select Committee, to consider the best means of se-
eming the rep {}ment of the loan out of the temporalities
of the Irish church.

109