The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-07 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

Lord ALTHORP rose to move the renewal of the Su-
gar Duties. With respect to the question of continuing
the duties on sugar, the necessity fur it was grounded on
the circumstance that it was required for the public ser-
vice of the country. He (rid not feel that the state of the
revenue was such as, with due reference to the other ques-
tions likely to come under consideration, to enable hint to
propose any reduction in the amount of those duties which
would afford any substantial relief, either to the West In -
ilia interest, or to the people of this country. Under
these circumstances, he felt himself—knowing, as he tilt!,
the distressed situation of the owners of West India pro.
rrty—called upon to consider whe,her he was enabled to
propose a large reduction ; and not being able to propose
a large reduction, he felt that a sin dl one would not give
them any advantage. Unless he could make a reduction
which should reduce the cost of sugar over the world, or
give the planters a❑ effective monopoly in this country, the
reduction would he of no use. Under these circumstances,
he proposed to the House a motion, " To grant to his
Majesty, as part of the supply, that all the duties o❑ sugar
and molasses, granted by an Act • pas,ed in the first year
of the reign of his present Majesty, should be renewed."
The resolution did not state the time, hut he proposed
their renewal for one year.
Mr. HUME remarked, that this was the first occasion
that the Reformed Parliament had to impose taxes. He
was much surprised, therefore, that there was not a better
attendance.—(Hear.) He was sorry and surprised that
the Hon. Member for Oldham was not there.—(Loud
cries of " Hear.") He was, doubtless, not aware of it,
or he would have been present. There were 314 new
Members sent to that House, but when he looked round
him, he did not see half that number in the House, and
the larger portio❑ of those present were old Members.
This did not say much for the industry and attention of
the new Members; but he hoped that, on a future occa-
sion, they would have a better attendance. He was sorry
the old system of placing upon East India sugar a duty of
10s. per cwt. more than upon West India sugar was to be
kept up. He hoped the Noble Lord would consent to an
equalization of the duties. It would be a great benefit to
our oriental possessions, by enabling them to pay for Bri.
tish manufactures, whilst it would not injure the West
India planters, as it was impossible, considering the dis-
tance, to compete with them ; and it would be destroying
the appearance of a monopoly which in fact was none.
He hoped the Noble Lord would take this into considera-
tion; and he would make a motion to this effect on
bringing up the report. As to the smallness of any
reduction which the Nob'e Lord might be able to make, he
hoped lie would not hesitate to do it on that account, since,
to a poor man, even a trifle was of consequence.
Mr. WOOLRYCH WHITMORE supported the pro-
position for equalizing the duties, as highly beneficial to
both countries; and also condemned the system of ut.er
prohibition of foreign sugar, as contrary to the principles
of free trade.

Lord ALTHORP said the present was an improper
time for taking into their consideration any general mea-
sure respecting the sugar duties, because they were about
to discuss the question of the renewal of the East India
Chart. r—a questio❑ with which the sugar duties are inti-
mately connected ; and when, with respect to the other
great interest, to whom the sugar duties were of impor-
tance, the Government was expected to propose a measure
which would make a considerable alteration in the situa-
tion of that important interest. With regard to the reduc-
tion of the duty on sugar, as a measure of relief to the
labouring classes, he agreed that it was desirable to reduce
them on that account ; but it was necessary to pay propor-
tionate attention to all classes of his Majesty's subjects,
and it became a question whether the reduction of some
other tax would not he still more beneficial to the labour-
ing classes themselves.
Mr. GOULBURN congratulated the country on the
bright prospect held out to it by the first financial measure
brought before it by Ministers. In the time of former

Parliaments, it was usual for the objects to which the
taxes were to be applied to be stated before the taxes were
voted ; but it was reserved for a Reformed Parliament to
see the taxes voted first, and their objects--whether for
the army, navy, or other service—left to he determined
afterwards. The usual course being so different from the
present, he hoped the Noble Lord would excuse his few
observations. The Noble Lord ought, before proposing a
vote for a tax, to have made a statement of the burdens
under which the country a'ready labours. He was per-
fectly aware that any laree reduction of taxation was incon-
sistent with justice. It was of great importance that the
West India interest should be immediately settled on a sure
basis ; and it was certainty true that the removal of these
taxes would be a benefit to the labouring classes. While
they relieved the poorer classes, it was right that they
should give some relief to a class who, though not belong-
ing to what were called the poorer classes, were yet
amongst the po ,rest who lived under his Majesty's sway.
Lord ALTHORP observed that he would merely an-
swer the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goul-
burn). The first objection made to the vote was merely
one of form. The Navy Estimates had already been pre-
sented ; but there was no vacant day for taking them into
consideration. The postponement of the alteration of the
sugar duties till the sth of April, would throw it one day
beyond the expiration of the financial year. It was im-
pessible for him to state what he could reduce, until he
could tell what was required for the support of the Govern-
ment, and what would be the state of the revenue. It
was the duty of Government to pay every attention to the
interests of the lower classes, but not so as to exclude other
classes.
Mr. ROBINSON observed, that though he and other
gentlemen on the same side were not inclined to believe
that a great reduction of taxation could be made, yet
many besides himself would be disposed to call upon the
Noble Lord for information as to the practicability of taking
off the taxes which pressed upon the poorer classes, and com-
muting them for others which would not be liable to the
same objections.
Mr. WARBURTON observed, that, to say the least,
it was very inconvenient to vote four millions, without
having an estimate of the expenses of the year. He
was sorry to find that the Honourable Member (Mr.
Poulett Thomson), who ought to be best aisle to answer
the inquiries which he was about to make, was
not in his place; but, in- his absence, he would ask
the Noble Lord (Althorp) whether the experiments which
hail been instituted for the purpose of ascertaining the
qualities of sugar, had made such progress as to enable the
experimenters to make such a scale as would be necessary
for an object which he considered extremely eesirable,•
viz., for imposing a graduated duty in proportion to the
quality of sugars.
Lord ALTHORP replied, that the experiments had not
been carried so far as to enable them to make such a scale.
The experiments, however, had proved that the calcu-
lations on which the Excise bad formerly proceeded were
erroneous; but the amount of the error had not yet been
determined. It certainly had been proved that it was con-
siderable. The House, he was sure, could not but observe,
that the persons interested in colonial affairs, and imme-
diately connected with the colonies, had purposely abstained
from opposing, or in any way embarrassing, his Majesty's
Ministers upon the present question—feeling as they did
that it was a matter of the utmost importance that the
still greater question, and that which more largely affected
the colonies, ought now once and for all to be settled ;
and, therefore, he, and all connected with the co-
lonies, were most anxious that nothing whatever
should stand in the way of that arrangement. As
to the observations of the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex, and his advocacy of the interest of our East
Indian possessions, he must be allowed to say, that they
were as inconsistent with the principles of sound policy,
as with the advantage of that dependency of the British
empire. There was not one of the great interests of the
country who would thank that Hon. Member for his ad-
vocacy ; for experience bad taught them all, that his sup-
port was more troublesome than useful.
Mr. HUME could not refrain from deprecating the prac-
tice of making bargains with Government on questions of
that nature, or of any kind. That which was right
should be done, without improperly agreeing to vote away
any portion of the public money, in order to attain that
which should be attained without any such sacrifice. As
to what had been said respecting his support of one party
or the other, he hoped he should gain credit with the
House when he stated, that he never got up there for the
purpose of supporting the exclusive interests of any por-
tion of the empire, and therefore he desired thanks as little
as he expected them. There had been for centuries in this
country too much talk about maintaining interests, and
too little respecting the advantage of the public. His
object was the public good ; he therefore cared little for par.
ocular interests, and did not want their thanks. He defied any
one to show that either his support or his opposition had ever
been factious. lltt defied any uric to fix upon him any party
motive.
Captain DUNDAS, as one of the young Members,
hoped it would not go abroad that, because one of the
Members for Oldham was absent, any considerable por-
tion of the new Members were inattentive to the duty
they owed their constituents.
Mr. FAITHFUL, who obseived that he was another of
the young Members, expressed an earnest desire to get rid
of the present motion in an unobjectionable manner. He
was, he confessed, most anxious to set it aside for the pre-
sent, but he had not sufficient experience to know how
that object cool I be effected according to the forms of the
Homoe. It the Right Hon. Member below him, who
poeseseed more experience than he could boast of, would
only have the goodness to inform him of the proper mode
of proceeding, he should most readily adopt it. The
Noble Lord had teld them that in the present session the)
must not expect any considerable relief from the pressure
of taxation—or, indeed, any relief at all.—(Cries of
" No, no," from the Treasury Bench.) He acknow-
ledged he was rejoiced to receive that contradiction, and
he sincerely hoped the fond expectations of the country
would be realized. The people expected relief, and it
those expectations were disappointed, he would take upon
himself to say, the Ministry would lose the confidence of
the nation, the great body of the people would be driven
to desperation, and thence some convulsive movement must
of necessity arise.
Mr. RUTHVEN strongly objected to the motion, and
moved, as an amendment, that the Chairman do repor
progress, and ask leave to sit again.

Mr. FIELDEN said the House was now called upon to

vote tour millions of taxes, and that was a question not to
be lightly dealt with. In the district with which he was
immediately connected there were 20,000 out of a popu-
lation of 200,000 who had only 2.-td. a day each to pro-
vide food and clothing and the other necessaries of life ;

and of that number 2,200 were out of employ. How
wretchedly insufficient, then, most the remuneration for
labour be ! and what a state of things was that, which
brought a labouring population to so low an ebb! and how
necessary, then, was it that the representatives of the peo-
ple should watch with a jealous eye every new vote of tax.
ation ! Those unhappy beings worked hard from Monday
morning till Saturday night, and their whole remunera-
tion consisted of a day. It was perfectly true they
were not consumers of sugar. No, truly; their diet con-
sisted of nothing more than potatoes for dinner, and oat-
meal porridge morning and evening. The state of the
country was most alarming and most revolting to the feel-
ings of humanity ; and he therefore could not give his
consent to any supply, until he had obtained a promise
from the Government that sometbiug effectual should be
done for the redress of grievances.
Mr. STRICKLAND adverted to some letters which
had been published in the newspapers, denying the state-
ments of the Hon. Member, for Oldham; it was, be be-
lieved, by no means the fact that such great misery pre-
vailed in the manufacturing districts as had been repre-
sented ; for the employment, at the present moment, was
pretty general, though the wages were low. That was a
state of things which, in his judgment, was by no means
satisfactorily accounted for ; and he sincerely hoped the
Hon. Member for Oldham would bring forward some mo-
tion upon that subject.
Mr. FIELDEN declined to enter into any controversies
with anonymous writers, who produced no authority for
their assertions.

Mr. POTTER was most anxious to see the duties re-
moved from soap.
Mr. RICE observed, that confessedly the sugar duties
did not affect the class whose distresses had that night
been made the subject of complaint; therefore why should
the Hon. Members who urged the condition of that class
as matter of the highest importance, object to a tax which
did not press upon those whose case they thought the har-
dest? The present was not a conclusive motion; it was
only a vote on which a Bill was to be subsequently
grounded.
A MEAIBER (name unknown), while he was anxious
that taxation should be remitted as far as was practicable,
expressed his confidence that his Majesty's present Go-
vernment would do all in their power for that purpose.
Conceiving also that the duty under consideration was not
one of those which could be remitted, he saw no reason
for voting that the Chairman should leave the chair.
Mr. FIELDEN made a brief explanation.
Dr. BALDWIN said he had been instructed by his con-
stituents to state that he should not feel it to be their duty
to supply his Majesty's Ministers with funds for the pur-
pose of enforcing military law in their country.
A Mamma (name unknown) felt it his duty to declare