The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-12 00:00:00

NAVAL ESTIMATES.
On the motion of going into committee of supply on the
naval estimates,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to call the attention of
the house to a practice relating to the public expenditure,
which might he productive of much mischief. On referring
to the financial accounts for the year ending March 31,
1855, he found that a considerable expenditure had taken
place in excess of the estimates which were passed by the
house, which he submitted was a most dangerous principle
as one which took all control eut of the hands of the house.
In the estimate of naval stores for that year the house on
three different occasions voted 2,828,0001., but he found
that the expenditure had been 3,264,000/, being an excess of
436,0001. expended without the sanction of that house.
There was a clause isi the Appropriaticn Act by which the
Lords of the Treasury were allowed to take any surplus, and
to apply it without actually coming to the house. To that
principle the house should object, because if expenditure
could be thus incurred in excess of the estimates agreed to
by the house, they might as well not troable themselves
with estimates at all.
Sir C. WOOD said the first vote he should have to move
would be one to cover the excess of expenditure last year,
and he thought it would be more convenient to postpone
his explanatone till he brought the subject before the
house in movirg the navy estimates.
___ ___

Mr. W. W 1 ELIAMS thought it would be much more
conducive to the public interest if the navy estimates were
• postponed till they knew whether they were to have peace
or war. He did not wish that the Government should in
the least relax their preparations for carrying on the war
with vigour; but if they voted the estimates now, he was
. afraid, although peace might take place, that the country
would be saddled with a war expenditure. There was an
increase of 6,000 in the number of seamen to be voted this
year. Of course the house would expect some explanation
from the Government as to the reason for this large in-
crease at a time when there was not a flag belonging to
Russia to be seen in the Black Sea. The country had
a right to expect that something more would have been
done in the Baltic than had been accomplished. In the
estimates about to be submitted there was a considerable
increase for the marines, although the number of men was
the same as in the year before, namely, 1,600. He wished
to draw the attention of the right hon. gentleman also to
the cost of the coast guard and the riggers. No doubt
that body of men had been of the greatest possible use,
but after the fleet had been trained for two years he coal&
not see the use of continuing those men in the service any
longer. The extra cost of these two classes of men was
67,0001. this year and 55,600/. last year. In three years
they cost the country 164,703/. Now during the war 20,000
extra seamen had been called out. This extra cost, there.
fore, would have enabled them to pay a bounty of 81—and
able seamen might be had for less - to each of these 20,000
men. This point deserved the attention of the Government.
He would next call attention to the vast increase in the
nusuberof admirals • in 181-6 there were 153 admirals of all
grades on the list, admirals;
whom 14 wereemployed; in 1853 the
number had risen to 268, but only the same number were
employed. The present estimates provided for 314, al-
though only 18 were employed afloat and 4 in the dock-
3ards. He thought such an increase of the number of
admirals was monstrous. There was also an increase of
43,0001. in the half-pay and pensions this year over the
last. This could not be owing to the war, as none of the
officers employed had yet come on the half-pay list. With-
in last ten years this deal weight had diminished only
51,0001. The amount now asked for was 1,297,0001. He
hoped some explanation would bo given of the increase.
He also wished to call attention to the mode in which the
good-service pensions were given away. He believed the
grossest injustice was done in this matter. He found a
noble lord had just been placed on the list. He did not
wish to disparage his gallantry, but he had seen very little
service, and there were at least four hundred captains and
twice that number of lieutenants is the service who had
performed more meritorious services. An honourable cap-
taiu had also received a rendon whose services were not
of a nature to deserve it. In conclusion, he would only
say he would offer no objection to the most efficient esti-
mates for the vigorous prosecution of the war.
The SPEAKEZt then left the chair, and the house went
into committee.

Sir C. WOOD said it was his duty to propose the naval
estimates for the year ; but the first vote which he would
have to propose was one which had no reference to the ser-
vice of the coming year, being a vote for the excessive ex-
penditure of the year ending on the Ist of April last. He
thought the explanation he would give of the circumstances
of that vote would entirely refute the assertion of the hon.
member for Evesham (Sires. Willoughby), that any expen-
diture could bo incurred without its being submitted to the
house. Any person who paid attention to the subject would
nee that in an expenditure of eight or ten millions it was
hardly possible to measure the amount so accurately as that
there should not be excess one way or other. The estimates
were framed by the department some time before they were
laid on the table. Sometimes at the end of the year there
was a surplus, which was carried to the credit of the account
at the Exchequer; sometimes there was an excess of ex-
penditure, which it was always necessary to submit to Par-
liament. With regard to the particular excess incurred
last year, he thought he woul I be able to satisfy the house
that it was hardly an excess of expenditure at all, although,
technically, it came before the house in that shape. Last
year, when the right hon. gentleman, the then first lard
(Sir J. Graham) was moving the naval estimates, he re-
called to the recollection of the committee the great changes
ho had made iu the adaireistration of the Admiralty in
1830. These changes had effected an amount or adminis-
trative reform larger than lid even been hinted at in mo-
dern days. Many purao) a raga d ,c 1 the late Sir G. Cock-
burn as a great authority in naval matters, but it was a
fact that every ono of these improvements had beers
strenuously opposed by that gallant °Meer ; amongst them
was the introduction of a bettor system of accounts,
and a system of bookkeeping by double entry, and from
that the accounts of the naval expenditure had been
most satisfactory. For 20 years of peace the system hail
worked without any difficulty, and it had hitherto borne
the pressure put ou it by the war. Ta point of fact, there-
tore, the item of 204,000/ for excess of expenditure ap-
peared in the estimates, not because a greater sues had
been expended than had been calculated on, but because
eovviug to a better system of--accounts a sum of near
300,0001., which in the ordinary course of things would
have been defrayed its the course of the current year, had
been carried into the accounts of the past. In the report
of the accountant-General he refers most favourably to
the change thus made, and to the exertions made by the
officers of the department Ito bring about this result, and
the Commissioners of Audit corroborated his statexaent.
So far, therefore, from any blame attaching to the
officers of the department for this excess of expenditure, it,
arose from circumstances highly creditable to them. He
was sure the hoe. member for 'Lambeth would bo glad
to learn that the public accounts were now kept in
the same manner as those of the great mercan-
tile establishments. A great deal of the result oh-
taMed was owing to a change recently made in the mode
of paying off ships on arriving in port. Formerly the
books were sent up to London, and examined by an esta-
blishment of clerks from the Accountant-General and Pay-
master-General's offices. Considerable delay, therefore,
took place before the men could be paid. Within the last
two or three years the system has been changed, and the
paymaster of each ship paid all the men belonging to her.
When the Baltic fleet returned in 1854 and 18.3 e, each ship
was paid up as she came in : no complaints were made, no
difficulty was experienced, and the men were set at liberty
either to go ou leave or be transferred to other ships. The
paymasters of the flout deserved the highest praise for the
manner in which they had discharged the new and dif-
ficult duty devolved on them. Intimately connected oith
this subject was a further change which he proposed
to make in the mode of payment at the dockyards.
As the paymasters of the ships had been substituted
for the pay clerks foom the Accountant-General's office,
a great portion of the duties of the latter had been
douo away with, and he proposed to relieve them alto-
gether, and recall them to London. In their place ha
would substitute in each dockyard an officer to be called
the accountant, who would pay the allotments and all the
wages of the yard. This was now done by the storekeeper.
He thought it better they should be entirely disconnected
with the monetary transactions of the yard. The new
dicer would be able to inquire into and check the dock-
yard accounts, which he feared at present were not
checked as they ought to be, especially with regard to
contract work. He next came to the actual estimates for
the year. As had been already stated they were framed
on the supposition that the war would continue, for they
were !prepared when the prospects of peace were not so
favourable as at present. He believed they were perfectly
right in presenting to the house a war estimate. (Hoar,
hear ) As had been stated on the first night of the ses-
sion by his noble friend at the head of the government,
they did not propose to ask at ,once the war estimates,
for the whole twelvemonth, but he hoped the house
would sanction them for such a time as would cover
the longest possible delay of the negotiations. The beet
security for peace was to show that they were ready for
war. If they showed the least doubt, the least hesitation,
the enemy would take advantage of it. Let it be seen that
if the negotiations for peace should fail, and the war pro-
ceed, they were prepared to carry it on as war was never
carried on before. He appealed with confidence to every
member of the committee, not only to those who bad given
on all occasions a generous support to the Government,
but to those who were most anxious for peace, because he
believed this was the best way to secure peace and promote
the objects for which they were honestly anxious. (Hear.)
Although he only intended to propose a vote for part of the
year, he begged to remind the house that they must not
with the hope that a very large reduc-
tion would bo possible in the event of peace being made. If
hon. members would refer to the debate which took place
in 1816, on the termination of the great war, they would
find a very curious statement made by the then Secretary
of the _Admiralty, to the effect that at the termination of
every war during the preceding century the estimates for
the first year of peace had beenlurger than for the last year
of war. Although the system of paying the ships close up
would diminish the increased expenditure in the event of
peace, yet there must be a greater expenditure than if the
ships were continued in commission. (Hear.) The house
would observe that there was an increase of 6,000 in the
number of men to be voted. This involved an increase of
350,0001. in the vote for wages. This was principally owing
to the increased number of men, but partly to an increase
in the rate of pay. The hon. member for Lambeth had re-
ferred to the pay of the coast guards and riggers. No doubt
as soon as the fleet was reduced these would be the first per-
sons to return to their ordinary avocations ; but as long as
they required a large force, and were raising new men
every day, it would be most unwise, and utterly destruc-
tive to the efficiency of the fleet to remove these men, se
whose experience they depended for the training and disci-
plines_
expenditure owing
to of the newly raised noon. There was Joe an increased
for the marines. A portion of this was
;n
ht ew wherever
pa
.rpeae:nesdelesedte
ite
visable change which had been made, by inorear
that most
to recruiting, but the more important portion
whole number of the force, but the number 0
The experience
they had had of this force during the 8.
valuable branch of it, the marine artillery. The l'elgvneroyt the
(Hear.) With re-
't most advisable
was employed, rendered
fi rgen'prto inc th service it had rendered at Sweabo
number of trained and scienti
_,2ooto,toooaket.only a portion of
be proposedr
gitarocle taoccothuenvto.teTiht
only on account. The next vo t
to take a vote of two millions
a trifling in 9
On this there was crease. Th e
was for victuals.
the additional number of men was ba-
.
increase caused by pr.
1 fth •
ecr ceo e article
lancedin 801E0 0103811r:euy it_uve
wars iroow
but as there *
The increase on the one side
hod est of 60 000/ th • was
a deduction for dinnms e net increase
60,00. On this vote he proposed to take a mil
The veto was o 3
nt The house shoed itemember that the
for provisions were made early ix the year ; these
ou .
lionw a s Dulyn
ria e
contracts
contracts could not be broken, so that even in the event of
peace much diminution of this vote could not be expected.
The next vote was for the Admiralty department. He di d
not think there could be any diminution in this vote, be •
cause, even if they had only to wind up the affairs, there
were an immense number of accounts and books to be
closed.
_lie was most anxious to get rid as soon as he could
of the number of ztemporary clerks that crowded the mops,
sad for !horn SPley could sanely Mid SAWN