The Sun.
London, England, 1834-03-11 00:00:00

DISSENTERS' GRIEVANCES.

Dr. LUSHINGTON said he was anxious in presenting the
petitions which he held in his hand, to occupy as little of the
time of the house as possible, conceiving that the demands
upon their time were numerous and important, but he also
conceived that it was part of his duty to state who were the
petitioners who had signed the present petition, for though it
was a matter very familiar, yet it was of the greatest im-
portance to that house and the country, and especially
►o to those gentlemen who took an interest in the sub.
ject, to know what it was that the petitioners required.
The petition was signed by the general body of dis-
senting ministers of the great denominations residing in and
about London, composing a body of as respectable and intelli.
gent persons as were to be found of any denomination in the
kingdom. They prayed for a separation of Church and State
(Hear, hear)—and they avowed their conviction that the
union between them could not be beneficial to the cause of
Christianity. With this proposition he did not agree, and,
except in a case of absolute necessity, he thought it would be
better to abstain from discussing it.—(Hear.) They also stated
what they considered the principal practical grievances
under which they laboured, viz., a want of general registration,
the difficulties in the solemnization of marriages, the difficul.
ties in the burial of their dead, their exclusion from the uni-
versities, and their liabilities to the payment of rates and other
compulsory levies for the maintenance of the established
church. He considered it the duty of that house to apply a
remedy to these grievances as far as they consistently could.
When the subject should be regularly brought forward, he
trusted that both sides of the house would unite most heartily
in their endeavours to co-operate in one common object—
(Hear, hear)—and not allow themselves, however strong their
feelings might be, to be led away, but to obtain that most desir.
able conciliation which was so necessary both for churchmen
and dissenters.

Mr. HARVEY said the subjects treated of in the petition
were of very great importance to a most respectable and
valuable part of the community. It was important that
the house should understand what were the feelings of the
non-conformists body, and also that a petition, coming from
an apparently authorized body, should not have legs importance
attached to it than it deserved. With reference, however, to
the assertion, that the dissenters did not desire a separation of
the Church and State, although they spoke of the union as not
being necessary towards the support of Christianity, he must
protest against such a speculative dogma ; for so it was
if they did not regard the union as an article of their
faith. He fully concurred in the desire to obtain
for the Dissenters a redress of all their practical grievances, and
hoped the hon. and learned gentleman opposite (Dr. Lushillg
ton) would lend them his most powerful support.
Mr. WILKS said, that having the honour to be acquainted
with many of those individuals who signed this petition, he felt
that he should not do justice to them if he did not express the
high sense he entertained of their learning, influence,
and piety.—(Hear, hear.) His learned friend had spoken
of them in terms of respect which no one who knew
them could avoid, but he was apprehensive that the house
would not understand from the manner in which he had ad-
verted to them the real weight of their opinions. The whole
non.conformist body were scattered throughout this empire
and America, and had been in existence nearly two centuries ;
the petitioners were composed of the dissenting ministers of
the independent Baptist and Presbyterian denominations of
this metropolis and within ten miles of London. They were
not only entitled to respect on account of their individual intel-
ligence, but he would take the liberty of saying that when it
was recollected that every one of them had been educated for
the Christian Ministry, and selected for that office by a large
and respectable body of the community, such men after meet-
ing together, and discussing, did not merely express their own
opinion, but gave expression to the sentiments of the vast, he
might say, innumerable body of intelligent, wealthy, and influ-
ential protestant dissenters in this metropolis ; therefore, what-
ever sentiment they expressed might be considered as the ex-
pression of the body at large, and whatever grievance was com-
plained of by them, the house might be assured might be uni-
versally complained of also, and therefore entitled to the
consideration of the house. Much as he respected the manly
spirit of his learned friend, whose love of liberty might lead him
to consider the severance from church and state ought to be
effected, he begged to say the Dissenters of the metropolis did
not wish to make that a prominent subject now, but rather to
confine themselves to practical grievances. He fully concurred
in many of the observations the learned civilian who presented the
petition, and would remark that the petitioners having com.
mitted it to his hands knowing that he was connected with the
church, showcd they were confident of the justice of their
claims. This subject would require extensive consideration,
and he regretted that vacillation which perplexed the house,
and created dissatisfaction amongst the Dissenters out of doors.
He was sorry to find that a member of the administration had
brought forward a measure, which he was sure would meet
with universal disapprobation.—(Loud cries of" Hear, hear.")
He regretted also that another subject had been taken
out of his hands, by a proposition for an universal national
civil registration ; he was also sorry that the question of church
rates, another vital subject, was postponed to so late a period in
the session. These questions were all intimately connected
with each other, and ought to be discussed in continuity, and
he feared the manner in which they were treated would cause
much trouble to many members of the house, and occasion his
Majesty's ministers to loose much of that attachment which
protestant dissenters had hitherto evinced towards them.
Mr. SANDFORD considered that the petition of the hon.
member was an official one. The grievances under which the
Dissenters laboured were very great; and he hoped the house
would apply a remedy. Those disabilities disunited the Dis-
senters from the Established Church, and it was the duty
of the Legislature to remove them. He was anxious
for one general discussion upon that subject ; taking it by piece.
meal was not productive of advantage, He heard from every
part of the country which he represented, that the bill about
to be introduced for the relief of Dissenters gave no satis.
faction.
Mr. BAINES did not think that the union of church and
state was one which the petition considered as an important
point ; he imagined that it was merely a theoretical opinion,
and not one which was urged upon the legislature as requiring
immediate consideration. The hon. member here read a peti.
tion from Dissenters, in which they reserved the discussion of
separation between church and state for a future time.
An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, begged
leave to make a few observations upon the question before the
house. Without pretending to know all the details of the
measure which the noble lord had introduced, he could assure
the house that it was not at all satisfactory to the feelings of
the respectable body to which he belonged. The noble lord
was not perhaps aware of the vast number of Roman Catholics
inhabiting the county of Lancaster. In the town of Liverpool
there were 60,000 Catholics, and in the town of Lancaster
there were upwards of 40,000. The greater number of
these were persons who had come over from Ireland,
where they were in the habit of having the marriage
ceremony performed according to the rites of their
own church, and it was utterly impossible to per-
suade them to go through the form of the ceremony again in
order to legalize their marriages. If he properly understood
the measure of the noble lord (the Paymaster of the Forces)
there would be an interference on the part of the Established
Church on that point. The very publication of bans, to the
omission of which he believed some penal enactment attached
—(Hear, hear) would not be submitted to by these
people. They were of the poorer class, and their prejudices were
invincible. He did not think that when a measure of
conciliation was brought forward it should be clogged by any
clauses which would defeat the object of the boon. Ile hoped
the bill would be amended in committee.—(Hear, hear.)
' Mr. FRYER had been requested to support the prayer of the
petition. He acknowledged all the disabilities under which the
dissenters laboured, but he would never agree to any separa-
tion of church and state.

Mr. SHEIL thought it was a remarkable circumstance that
notwithstanding the petitioners stated they did not at present
pray for any separation, they at the outset of their peti-
tions, lay down that abstract doctrine, and appear
to attribute all their grievances to the connection between
church and state. Although they abstained from calling for
separation, it was quite manifest that they called the attention
of the house to the source of the evils under which they la-
boured. The dissenters would not be contented with the bill
of the noble lord the paymaster of the forces. If the dis-
senters were relieved from church rates, why should they not
from tithes ? If they would not be legally called on to raise
the edifice, why should they be required to support the minis-
ter who performed service in it ?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. STANLEY (Cheshire) said he considered the question
of a separation between church and state, as affecting the mem-
bers of the church of England as much as the dissenters. He
would say that the dissenters would be right in attributing the
evils under which they laboured to the existence of a dominant
church if they saw the noble lord (Russell), who had been
their constant support through the whole of his life—if they
saw that he withdrew his measure of relief in deference to the

church of England ; if the saw their just demands thus resisted
by the church, and their relief rendered incompatible with the
existence of the connection between church and state, they
would be right, he would repeat, in attributing their grievances
to this connection, and calling upon that house to put an end to
it as incompatible with the liberties of the country. But if the
government and the house relieved the dissenters from the dis-
abilities they prayed to be relieved from, then it was clear that
the honour of church and state was not incompatible with the
rights and just demands of the people of England. They
ought to accede to those demands whilst they could do
so, and not by putting off the relief to the last moment
render the dissenters the irreconcilable enemies of the esta-
blishment.—(Hear.)
Colonel EVANS begged leave to say that the body of dissen-
ters was extremely dissatisfied with the nature of the bill
brought into that house by the noble paymaster of the forces.
His constituents concurred in the prayer of the petition, and
he would only express a hope that if the noble lord, Russell,
should be prevented from bringing in a bill that would satisfy
the claims of the dissenters, that the hon. and learned member,
(Dr.Lushington) would impose upon himself the important duty
of proposing a bill that would be more satisfactory to that nu.
merous and enlightened body.
Mr. HA RCOURT (we understood) said he had a petition of
a similar kind from some of his constituents, but not having
yet an opportunity of presenting it, he would take the present
opportunity of expressing his concurrence in the prayer of the
petition now before the house. He was of opinion, that all
the grievances under which the dissenters laboured might be
remedied without a separation of church and state. Un-
doubtedly there were many difficulties at present in the way,
but with proper attention they might be removed; he, how-
ever, thought that the bill now before tee house would not be
satisfactory, unless its provisions were of a more enlarged
chamber.

Sir R. VYVYAN expressed his regret that so many
opinions as had been expressed this morning upon so important
a subject should have been allowed to pass without their having
been replied to. He rose for the purpose of answering an ob-
servation of the hon. member for Cheshire (AIL E. J. Stanley).
That hon. member had said that if the members of the church
of England would not give way and assent to the removal of
the grievances under which the dissenters laboured, then the
connection between church and state ought to be abolished.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) He (Sir Richard Vyvyan) begged leave
to say, in reply, that even if the members of the es-
tablished church refused to give way, that was no argument
for the dissolution of the connection between church and state.
The principles of the connection had long been admitted and
recognized, and had descended to us from our forefathers as
part of the established law of the land. He deeply regretted,
that in the present petition the dissenters had avowed their
future intention of attacking that connection.—(Cries of
"No," and " Hear.") The hon. baronet here read a portion
of the petition in support of his assertion; it stated, that their
specific grievances arose from all the patronage of the church
being bestowed on one religious community—(Hear, hear)--
and almost all the gentlemen who advocated the removal
of the specific practical grievances used the words
"at present," and " now." If the present practical
grievances be removed, what guarantee had the house that next
session the dissenters would not come and apply for a separation
of Church and State?
Mr. STANLEY, in explanation, said, he had only said he
considered the mention of the connection_of Church and State
as a mere speculative opinion; and, with regard to their se-
paration, he had merely said it would only be required when it
should be proved that the existence of the connection was in-
compatible with the obtaining for so large a portion► of our
fellow subjects their reasonable and just rights. If upon the,
removal of the specific grievances there should exist no other
practical grievance, then he could not agree to any speculative
measure, for dissolving the connection.

Colonel EVANS was about to make some remarks, when
The SPEAKER rose to order, and sail the discussion was
very desultory, amounting to no more than one hon. gentleman
saying he thought one thing, and one another.
Sir RICHARD VYVYAN, in explanation, said his object
was to show the country the sentiments expressed at these
morning sittings ought not to be considered as emanating from
a full house.

Mr. HAWKES, the new member for Dudley, was here in-
troduced by Sir H. J. Hardinge, and took the oaths and his
seat on the opposition side.
Mr. SINCLAIR said the hon. member opposite had faith-
fully pointed out what the real object of the dissenters was,
and proved to the house that nothing else would satisfy them
but the separation of church and state. It was true they did
not demand that now—they were too prudent—they wished
to put it off, and to content themselves with some minor mat-
ters; but why did they act so? Because they knew they would
not succeed at present, and because they required those other
things as so many stepping stones to the other object.

Dr. LUSHINGTON contended that the Dissenters had a
right to maintain their opinions, and if they conceived that
the connection hetween church and state was hostile to the
interests of Christianity, they were perfectly justified in coming
forward and stating that. He would repeat, that nothing short
of a proper and general system of registration would satisfy the
Dissenters, and it would be in vain to satisfy them by the mea-
sure of the noble lord, the Paymaster of the Forces. With re-
ference to what had fallen from the hon. and learned member
for Tipperary, he would observe, that the question of tithes
was not introduced in the petitions of the Dissenters ; and he
trusted that such a question would not be raised on the present
occasion. The hon. member then presented a petition from
the Dissenters of St. Leonard's, Shoreditch, also from the parish
of Bow; to the same effect ; and a petition from a place in Der.
byshire, praying for the better observance of the Sabbath.
Mr. PONSONBY supported the prayer of the petitions.

Sir R. VYVYAN explained. He had said nothing in oppo.
salon to the claims of the dissenters.

Sir G. STAUNTON thought that the measure introduced by
the noble lord would not be satisfactory to the country ; the
only way to set the question at rest would be to make marriages
a civil contract. The hon. member then presented petitions
from the dissenters of the towns of Wearmouth, Ringwood,
and Christchurch.

Mr, STRUTT presented two petitions from the parishes of
St. Peter's and St. Michael's, Derby, for the better observance
of the Sabbath. The hon. member presented two other peti-
tions from the parish of Mailing, in Derbyshire, deprecating a
dissolution of the union of Church and State, or any inter.
ference with the Church without the consent of those who
presided over its interests.

The same HON. MEIIBER presented two petitions from
Leamington Priors, complaining that the names of the peti-
tioners had been improperly, and without their consent and
knowledge, attached to certain petitions which had been pre-
sented to that house, and praying that inquiry should be made
into the same. The hon. member moved that the petitions
should be referred to the committee already appointed to in.
quire into the authenticity of certain signatures attached to a
petition praying that the constituency of Leamington Priors
should be annexed to the borough of Warwick.

The SPEAKER said, that as that committee had been ap.
pointed to inquire into certain allegations connected with an-
other petition, these petitions could not be referred to it.
The petitions, after some conversation, were ordered to lie
on the table.

Mr. SANDFORD presented a petition for the better ob-
servance of the Sabbath—several others from the county of
Somerset, complaining of agricultural distress ; and two others
from Dissenters, praying for the redress of grievances.
Mr. TYNTE supported the prayer of the petitioners, and re-
gretted that the bill of the noble lord (J. Russell) would not give
general satisfaction.

Sir W. ➢IOLESWORTH presented a petition from the
owners and occupiers of land in the southern division of
Cornwall for a commutation of tithes ; also one for
the repeal of the malt duty; also one from the Rev. J.
Dawson, for a removal of grievances, the removal of the Bishops
from Parliament, the reduction of salaries of clergymen, and
the dissolution of the connection between church and state.
Mr. SINCLAIR presented petitions for a proper distribution
of church patronage ; they were from Gargannock, Portmar,
Edinburgh, and Dalton.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT presented a petition from Brackley in
the county of Northampton, complaining of agricultnral dis.
tress, and praying fora reduction of taxes.

Mr. B. CARTER presented a petition from certain dia.
senters of Portsea, praying for a redress of grievances.
Mr. EVA NS presented a petition from Drayton, in the county
of Suffolk for a better observance of the Sabbath. Also one
from Loughborough, praying the house to take into conside-
ration the great grievances under which the retail beer sellers
laboured.

....—An HON. MEMBER presented a petition from the coroners
of the county of Cumberland, praying for an increase of al-
lowances.

Mr. WILKS presented petitions from Haydon Bridge
(Northumberland), Bedworth (Warwick), Sidney (Gloucester),
the Independents of Harting (Sussex), the Baptists of Wool-
ston (Warwick), Marlborough (Wilts), and Kislingbury
(Northampton), Haverhill (Suffolk), and New Hill Fringe
(Herts), praying for the redress of the practical grievances
affecting Dissenters.

Mr. TOOKE presented petitions from the parishes of
St. Andrew, Holborn, and St. George the Martyr, complain-
ing of the inequality of the land tax in those parishes,
compared with Marylebone and others of the metropolis.
The hon. member also presented a petition from Mr. Robert
Owen and the producers of wealth and knowledge, agreed to at
a very large meeting, recommending the adoption of the ope.
rative instead of the competitive system, and praying the
house to take the subject into consideration.
Mr. BROCKLEHURST presented a petition from the dis.
senters of 'Macclesfield, for the removal of their disabilities.
Mr. CHAPMAN presented similar petitions from Whitby.
Mr. WINNINGTON presented a petition from the dissen.
ters of Kidderminster.

Mr. RIPON presented a petition from the electors of the
borough of Gateshead, praying for the exclusion f the Bishops
from the House of Lords.
The SPEAKER then left the chair.

LUSUS NATURX.—An extraordinary freak
of nature occurred a few days ago at Kinderton, Middle-
wich. A sow, the property of Mr. James Buckley,
brought forth a living pig which bad eight legs, two
bodies, and two tails, but only one bead, each individual
part however perfectly formed. This extraordinary
creature lived for some time, but is since dead. As a
great curiosity, however, it has been stuffed, and is now
in the possession of Mr. Samuel Poole, of the Talbot Inn,
Middlewich.—Macclesfield Courier.

SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE-(THIS DAY)

FROM LLOYD'S.
DEAL, MARCH 10.-Wind N.N.W.—Sailed the outward.
bound. Arrived from the River and sailed the Hero, Dawson,
for Barbadoes ; and Porcupine, Hill, for the River Gambia.
PORTSMOUTH, Mulct' 10.—Wind N.W. to N.—Sailed the
Carnatic, Biles, for Bombay; his Majesty's brig Charybdis,
for Sierra Leone; his Majesty's ship Edinburgh, for Ply-
mouth ; Isabella, East, for Demerara; Eliza Anne, Lowther,
for Bermuda; and Sylvia transport, for Cork.
FALMOUTH, Maacu 9.—Wind W.S.W. to W., moderate.
—Arrived the Lord Charles Spencer, Watson, from Galipoli.
Sailed the Alice, Hepburn, for Sydney, New South Wales.
STANGATE CREEK, MARCH 10.-Arrived the Camilla, Erez.
Hone, from Adra.

TORBAY, MARCH 9.—Arrived the Ark, Smairidge, from Faro.
GUERNSEY, MARCH S.—Arrived the Telemaque, Jamoneau,
from Arichal ; and Arime, Fleck, from Cette_

BRISTOL, MARCH 10.—Arrived the Azores packet, Gibson,
from St. Michael's.

GLOUCESTER, MARCH 10,-Arrived the Mary, Peter, from
St. Michael's.

LIVERPOOL, MARCH 9.—Arrived the Louisa, Myers, Her.
mitage, Badger, Paris, Symonds, and Majestic, Maxwell, from
New Orleans; Minerva, Rice, from Mobile; Bragauza, Han.
zen, %id Hull, Knox, from Savannah ; Havannah packet,
Penrice, from Africa; Charlotte, Abbonett, from St. Michael's;
and John Ormerod, Chapman, from Oporto. Off port the
Christopher Columbus, from Trieste. A brig of 200 tons, with
foremast standing, starboard side under water, high quarter-
deck, two narrow white streaks on her bulwarks, lower dead
eyes on the rail, carved work on the stern, painted yellow, was
passed on the 22d ult. in lat. 39, long. 49, by the Louisa,
Meyers, arrived at this port. The Little Liz, from Sierra
Leone, drifted off the North Bank last night, and was this
morning laid on the bank at the Salt-house Dock.
GREENOCK, MARCH S.—Arrived the Mary Shap, M`Donald,
from Demerara and Barbadoes.

CORK, Mown B.—Arrived the Favourite, Simpson, from
Honduras.

LIMERICK, MARCH B.—Arrived the Elizabeth, Dyer, from
London.

The Ann and Eliza was on shore in the Spalinader Passage
on the 12th ult.

THE ARMY.

(From the Limerick Chronicle.)

The 6th Dragoon Guards, or Carabineers, marched from
Dundalk on Monday for Dublin, where they embark for Liver.
pool, to be stationed at Nottingham, Leeds, &c.
The 9th Lancers from Longford are on the march to Dundalk,
to replace the 6th Carabineers.
The 15th Hussars at Cork received the route on Saturday.
Two troops left on Monday—one for Gort and the other for
Loughrea. The remainder of that distinguished corps proceed
this day for Longford, where the head-quarters are to be sta-
tioned. They are to be replaced at Cork by the 10th Hussars,
from Newbridge.
The 3d Light Dragoons are likely to come to Ireland in the
spring.

The 70th regiment, at present quartered in Cork barracks
embark immediately for Gibraltar. The Stentor, Sylvia, and
Hope transports are hourly expected in Cork harbour to convey
them. The 83d regiment, from Dublin, are expected in Cork
to embark for Nova Scotia.
The 30th regiment, from Galway, are ordered for Cork, to
embark for North America.

The 89th regiment, it is rumoured, leave Cork for Birr.
The Enniskillen paper states that the 27th regiment proceed
to England in two months.
Sir Hussey Vivian retires from the command of the army in
Ireland next summer.

The Royal Hospital at Kilmainham is to become an Artillery
depot.
Thr Paymastership of the 89th regiment in Cork is vacant by
Captain Dawson's death.

Lieut.. Colonel W. Drummond has relieved Lieut.-Colonel
Aitchison in the command of the 2d battalion Scots Fusileer
Guards, in Dublin, and the latter officer has proceeded to Eng-
land,

Major Lord William Thynne, of the 7th Royal Fusileers,
has left Newbridge for England.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE►.

TAT TF,RSALL' S.

The room was very numerously attended yesterday. The
alteration in the relative positions of the two Derby favourites
(predicted by us last week) has taken place, but sooner and
snore definitively than we had expected; although the New.
market people express an unfavourable opinion of Bubastes,
the change in the odds can only be attributed to the influence
of money, which is now all in favour of Bentley. Shelelah
was backed in two or three quarters at 15 to 1, and a shade
above that was readily taken about Olympic. Delirium de-
clined three or four points, and Brother to Kate fell back to his
old place. Nothing done in the Riddleaworth and Oatlands.
The quotations at the close of the room were

DEWEY.
11 to 2 agst Mr. Watt's Bubastes
13 to t.l agst Mr. Yates's Bentley
10 to 1 agst Mr. Batson's Plenipo
15 to 1 agst Duke of Cleveland's Shelelah (taken)
16 to 1 agst Duke of Grafton's Olympic (taken)
20 to 1 agst Lord Jersey's Glencoe
20 to 1 agst Mr. Gardnor's Comet
23 to 1 agst Colonel Cradock's Emigrant (taken.)
25 to 1 agst Mr. Walker's Delirium (taken)
25 to 1 agst Mr. Gully's Viator
1000 to 30 agst Mr. Mills's Brother to Kate (taken)
1000 to 30 agst Lord Chesterfield's Alexis (taken)
10.0 to 25 agst Mr. Forth's Doll Tearslieet colt (taken)
1( 00 to 15 agst Mr. Sadler's Defensive
1000 to 15 agst Colonel Peel's Harum Scarum (taken)
OAKS.
c() to 1 agst Mr. Greville's Pickle (taken)
21 to 1 agst Mr. Nevill's Amadon
20 to 1 agst Mr. Bigg's Muliana
2000 to 200 agst Lord Jersey's two taken)