The Sun.
London, England, 1856-06-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 7, 1856.

served at Woolwich or some similar place, wauld serve
as a record of our Crimean victories. In his opinion the
great hall at Chelsea, which was seldom used, would be
the most suitable place in which to exhibit them. He
understood that his right hon. friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had been advised against their purchase
by Sir C. Eastlake, hut he could assure his right
hon. friend that Sir C. Eastlake's dictum would not
have any great weight or authority in the artistic world.
Three grounds, he understood, were urged against their '
purchase. First, that being in water colour, they would
soon fads second, that the price was excessive ; and
third, thg they had already been engraved and published.
Now, with respect to the first objection, he would ob-
serve, that Sir C. Eastlake was an oil painter, and they
knew the maxim, "Nothing like leather.;" and it was
known that water-colour pictures, if properly taken care
of, would last for centuries. The wars of the French
Republic were all painted in water colours. With re-
gard to the price, there was not an artist in the king-
dom who would not say that it was moderate ; and as
to their being published already, it should be recollected
that the price of the published series was ten guineas,
which placed them beyond the reach of the public gene-
rally. He hoped that his right hon. friend would take
these circumstances into consideration, and propose a

vote fur their purchase.
The Cd ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER slid
that ho had visited the cAlection alluded to, for the pot.-
pose of ascertaining whether their purchase by the State
would be desirable. So far as he c 'old learn, this col-
lection of water-colour drawings had been made at the
instance of Messrs. Colnaghi for the purpose of being
engraved, which was subsequently done. Having taken
the advice of competent persons respecting their pm..
chase by the nation, he had come to the conclusion that
their material was not sufficiently durable to render such

a proceeding expedient.
CHU RC II ACCOMMODATION AT PLIIIISTEAD
The Marquis of BLANDFORD rose to call attention
to the existing want of church accommodation in the
parish of Plumstead, and to the claims upon the Go-
vernment in respect of property and employment of
.labour in the parish ; and to move that, in the
opinion of this house, the circumstances of the parish
continue to demand the attention of the Govern-
ment. In doing so, he had no wish to cast any
slur upon the Government, as he believed they were
not unwilling to make provision. The population
of Plumstead in 1841 was 2,816 ; and in 1851 had
increased to 8,373, the church accommodation, which
provided for only four hundred, remaining. the same.
The population bad been increased to 12,000 by the war,
but previous to that, it had, iu 1851, increased from
2,000 to 8,000. The pariah church, which accotbmcdated
400 persons, was a mile and a•halt from the Arsenal, and,
co, s quently, was not very easy of access to many per-
sons. The vicar had brought these circumstances before
the War. Department, explaieieg the insufficiency of
local contributions towards the erection of either a church
or a school, but all the aid that had been afforded.by
the Government was a grant of 1001., made at the recom-
mendation of Lord Raglan, towards the erection of a
church, which was, however, so inadequate, that it had re-
mained in the bank ever since. The Government had,
however, given a further grant of 1,0001. towards the este,-
blishment of a school, provided an equal sum was raised by
the locality. The incumbent now offered that if a grant
were allowed of 2,0001. towards the building of church, he
would raiea a further HUM of 2 0001., and erect a church
close to the Arsenal. The grounds of this application were
that the Government were the owners of the principal
portion of the property at Plumstead, and that the great
mass of the population consisted of artisans and labourers
in their employ, and whose interests ought to be as much
cared for as the army and navy, who used the munitions
of war which these artisans and labourers manufactured.
He concluded by moving an amendment to the motion
that the Speaker do leave the chair, that the circum-
stances of the parish of Piumstead continued to demand
the attention of the Government.
Mr. MONSELL assured the noble lord that the sub-
ject had not escaped the Government or the war depart-
ment, and advised him to leave the matter in the hands
of the Secretary of State for that department. It must
not be supposed that the Government had done nothing
in the matter. 1,0001. had been granted for the erection
of schools in connection with the Church of Eagland, and
sites had been granted for the erection of schools in con•
oection with the Roman Catholic and Presbyterian reli-
gisns, on condition that certain contributions should be
contributed by the locality.
Mr. J. AI`GREGO R. spoke fram personal knowledge
of Vie wants of the neighbourhood, and while admitting
the extent to which the Government had responded to
the demands for drainage, schools, and other • improve-
ments referred to the liberality of Sir C. Eardley in the
adjoining parish of Erith, who, though in some part a
(Lssenter, had provided a site and built a church, and ex-
pressed a hope that the Government would make pro-
vi-ion for the spiritual destitution of the population,
which the Arsenal and other public works had brought
together io Piumstead.
Atter a fe v words fr.,m Sir J. PAIKINGTON,
The Marquis of BL- NDFORD intimated his willing-
ness to leave the matter in the Lands of the Government,
and withdrew his nmendinent.
In rep;y to Sir J. PAKINGrOINI,
Sir G. GILE'Y gave notice that the education vote
would be taken on the next supply night, viz., Thursday
next.

The house then went into committee of supply.
The first vote propose] was 40,0001. for public works
—tee-evident institutions for the protnotion of education
and civiisatit.n amongst the nations of South Africa.
Li reply to Stlr, WlLLums, who asked for some ex-
pl tt.ation of the charge,
Mr. LABOUCHERE stated that last year a scheme
had been submitted by Sir G. Grey, the Governor of the
Cap of Gooti Hope, for the civilisation of the native
tribes, and the maintenance of tranquillity, a part of
which consi4ed in providing means for employing them
in the csnstruotion of public) roads, the establishment of
ocheole, and other works of improvement, which he said
would be more effectual in preserving peace and instil.-
ing the safety of the colony than any amount of force
that could be tent out. That scheme involved an annual
grant for ten years—to the extent of 40,000/. for the
first three years, to be diminished gradually in the
succeeding years until it ceased altogether. He pro-
pceed to lay upon the table to-night the accounts
winch had been received from the colony since
lest veer, when the first grant was made, in which
Governer Grey stated that the plan of employing the
.Kettire upon public works had been mo it successful ;
that the emit was comparative'y ama 1 ; that it was open•
iug up the resources of the country, implanting habits of
industry in the native population, and preserving peace
and tranquillity. As a matter of economy he believed
that this money was well spent, inasmuch as it afforded
the meet effectual means of preventing those outbreaks
on the frontier which occurred some time ago, and which
were not only calamitous in their restilte, but occasioned
a heavy charge upon the finances of the e st :try.
.'lithe vote was then agreed to.
On the following vote, viz., 12,6341., to make good
the loss on commissariat chest transaction] ;for freight
and expellees of shipment, and for raising money con-
nected with the notritniseariat,
Mr. WILSON, in answer to Sir F. BIRING, explained
that one portion of this charge arose from the retrans-
ferencemt the chest fund back to the Treasury, from
which to o years ego it bad been transferred to the
War office . The other portion was occasioned by loss in
,the exchanges consequent on making retnittences abroad.
After some further discussion the vote was agreed to.
Ort the next vote of 6,6001. for Agricultural Statistics
in Ireland and Scotland,
Mr. H. I-lEftBERT said that he must call attention
to this here. He begged to ask if any inquiry had been
made as to the accuracy of the statistics which were an-
nually pub!islied, and whether they gave anything like a
prod, r ace ,nut (Idle agricultural crops in Ireland. He
did not hink, ng as he did, the way in which these
sotti tLs were collected, that they would be of any great
weiget. They wore collected by the constabulary, who
old not Itia, e any proper knowledge of the subject, and
he weer amid learn upon what data they went.
Mr. PALK was sorry that so few members were pre-
sent to listen to the statement of the hon, gentleman, as
he thoughait would be a lesson to them not to pees a bill
which was before this house on this subject; for England.
Nothing could be more mischieVoue to the country and
to agriculture than a bad system of statistics, and indeed
he objected to the prying into this affairs of agriculturists
which it was proposed to adopt by means of a bill Lefore
the house. He wished to know what was the meaning
of a note attached to the vote stating that a sum of
4,0001. voted for the collection of agricultural statistics
last year way not expended ; and he would he glad to he
informed whether that sum was exclusive of the 6,600/.
asked for by the vote ?
Mr. WILSON slid thaflait session a vote of 6;300/.
was passed for the collection of agricultural statistics in
England, Ireland, and Scotland. In Scotland and Ire-
land the machinery for collecting these statistics was as
perfect as it had been, and in England it was intended
to push the experiment further than had been done in
two previous years ; but in consequence of a recom-
tneadation of a committee of the House 'of Leeds; a bill
on the subject was introduced, and it was thought
proper that nothing should be done until that
hill was passed ; the 4,0001. therefore was not
e xaended. The vote now before the house was fcr
Scotl,nd and Ireland,and it was not thought right to ask
for a larger sum before the bill had passed, an l it was
proposed to be content with the 4,0001. in hand for the
ensuing year, if the bill passed. Ile did nut mean to
say that implicit confidence was to be placed in the ag-
ile iltut al statistics c illected in Ireland for last year. He
had reason to remark that there were great discrepan-
cies between them and those furnished from Scotland,
which could not be accounted for by difference of c'imate
and soilOn the whole, however, though the agricultural
statistics might not be quite correct, yet they were a fair
index of the state of cultivation of the land, and gave
something like an approximation to the amount of crops
given. There could be no doubt that a system of agri-
cultural statistics would he most beneficial in regulating
the planting of crops, which were often influenced by the
variation of prices, the result of which was a deficient
return for capital expended in the production of a par-
ticular article, which had ranged at high prices for one
er two years, and fell again at a time when an undue
quantity of land was appropriated to its cultivation.
Sir J. TYIZELL said that the cultivators of land lidd
no objection to information on agrienl.ural statistics, but,
they did complain of the vexatious and inquisitorial
manner in which it was proposed to obtain them.
After a few words from Mr. L. DAVIES,
Lord NAAS said that great dissatisfaction was felt in
Ireland with regard to the position in which this quote
tion was placed. The stet istical returns hardly approxi-
mated to correctness. The way in which these returns
were obtained was, that after the quantity of acreage
had been ascertained circulars were sect wake principal
persons in different distrcte, asking them to state what
was tho average quantity of wheat, p datnee, or oats,
grown in their district!'. This was got togethe r I the
sub-inspectors of the constabulary, who only picked it

up where they could, at fairs and markets by hearsay. he thought it improper to tax the working people of this
The 'hese plan to secure accuracy would be to hare re- 1 country for such an object.
turns of all agricultural produce brought to market;
not intended that there should be any political distinctions
I The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sail it was
in
the
,sellection of persons whose portraita should be placed
Sir Re FERGUSSON eaid that the acreage returns
.aTinitiobject walals to form a gallery of histori-
were very well done by he constabulary, who were ge-
nerally the sons of farmers, and very intelligent men ; ' cu .1 heert'raailetsry
thtelChurch or State, in ofscience or'oaW.l.°Trhhaetinguished in
and they were after wards submitted to the correction ot'
sufficiently broad definition. The criticism.t surelyo tewhaosna.
proprietors of land. But when the constabulary came
to collect the returns of the quantity or produce, it was gentleman the member for North Warwickshire was con-
vert, different, and by no means satisfactory. . ceived in a very narroiv-minded view of the subject. He
Mr. STAFFORD said the house was indebted to the (Sir C. Lewis) was sure the hon. gentleman to whom they
hon. member for Kerry for bringing this question before used to look up to as the embodiment of the economical
their notice. The police in Ireland might be very in-
principle, the late Mr. Hume, would not have prescribed
telligent, but they did not perform this duty, which was , such a scheme as this. But was it true that the working
classes could derive no benefit from institutions of this
thrust upon them, and was connected with their other
,loer objectt no t
benefit tlre B rfirtoitsnh
the htusebirk. Th o working classes could
kind? Why, on the same principle the hon. geatleneanought
duties, con amore. The statistics were, therefore, inac-
curate, a
meritl h owtiags o
h not
a t taltogether
no withoutcom p
compulsion
ebnlllpti, their
uyed which the libraryabounded
nor° frs it
the differhutc'eg ileetions
learned 'enema es in
great
in their collection, a fact which he hoped would be re- of scientific objects which were' to be found in other parts
membered when the English Fi I came on. • of the institution. Besides, it was in London. Not only
Mr. SPOONER said that Mr. Wilson had admitted must they, on the hon. gentleman's showing, shut up the
that these statistics were of no use as a guide to dealings British Museum and the National Gallery—not only must
in agricultural produce between individuals. He (Mr. they withdraw all aid from every scientific and artistic in-
Sphoner) admitted that it would be of use to have re- stitution to which they extended their as tistance, but they
turns of the quantity of acreage in wheat, oats, &c., but must abolish the Record-office and the State Paper-office.
He would remind the committee that that great and pe-
as to getting an account of live stock on a term, no ac-
curacy in that resoect could be expected or obtained.
aenvattbetyhteliTtohratrtit
not
osof theirwoch ifiriostin-
throito_tsiconfatthieoinr, theosancienithßomans, used to adorn the yeeti-
Mr. Sereeant SHE E quite agreed with those who had guished forefethoerse!
preceded him as to tee value of agricultural statistics. It love of art, but in order that their sous might always have
was W3B of great importance that they should know how before their eyes those incentives which the portraits of
many oxen, and sheep, and pigs, and how many geese, their illustrious ancestors were so well calculated to supply.
and ducks, tied hens there wsre in the city ; but there What was now proposed was that they should imitate that
was another description of agricultural statistics which great people, not in their privets families, but as a com-
would be of infinitely more value—what proportion of munity ; and the House of Commons would not lay. down
the labouring population of Ireland was employed in its design at
believed that the people in the countrythe bidding of the hon. gentleman opposite.
agriculture, and during what number of months in th Mr. RICE e would value a gallery of this kind even more than the in-
year they were actuatly receiving wages. He should habitants of the metropolis. He believed that the work-
else like to know what was doing for the improvement inn gclasses would enjoy a collection of this kind as much
of estates in Ireland, what farms-houses, a
-houses, and what la-any other portion of the community.
beurere'eCattages were built. This information would Viscount GODERICH could only conceive one reason
he of importance to the Govment and that house, and why the working classes should not avail themselves of the
would guide them in their legislation for Ireland. proposed gallery, rind that arose from the fact that the
The vote was then agreed to. hon. gentleman (Mr. Spooner) and his friends would not
On the vote of 2,00.0; towards the formation of a consent to open publio institutions ,on the only day on
British 11,storical Gallery, which working men could visit them. (Oh.)
Lord W. GRAHAM said he should like to have sorae Mr. JAS. M'GREGOR cordially supported the vote, and
entreated his hon. friend to withdraw his opposition. He
information ebaut the mode in which this sum was to be wished to know, however, why the public inetitutions were
expended, as it was the first time this vote had beau pro-
not opened on every day of the week except Sunday?
posed. He asked whether Government intended to purchase
Mt. MAGUIRE said the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
pictures when they came into the market, or whether they in
hie budget speech, particularly pressed upon the house
intended to employ artists to copy portraits ;because un-
the fact that unless they lessened the expenditure, he could
less they adopted the latter course, there were many per- not reduce the taxation of the country. Now this year they
traits iu the possession of families which might never be
brought into the market at all, but copies of which it had done nothing to diminish the attend charge, except in
might be desirable to obtain for the gallery. the naval and military departments. (neer, hear.) When
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was the income tax was first imposed, the civil contingenciee
amounted only to 3,500,00 b/.; this year they were 6,700,030/.
quite true this was the first time this vote had been pro (Cheers.) Vesicles, he should like to know what they in-
posed. It was proposed in consequence of an address from
the other' house of Parliament praying her Majesty to take tended the ,gallery ultimately to be? Did they mean to
have another Versailles? (Cheers.) Well, ho would
means r the formation of a gallery of historical portraits.
ailed them that the French attained to great excellence in
re-
In the first instance Government asked for what hon. meat_ :cried
respect at the time they were verging fast upon bank-
beri would see was a very limited sum of money for the
ruptcy and revolution. (Hear, hear.) He protested alto-
objeca in view. It was most desirable not to attempt any-
gather against the lavish expenditure which hail prevailed
thing ambitious in the first instance. There would not be
of late years.
any necessary connection between this gallery and the Na-
tional Gallery of pictures, thought it might be convenient The committee divided on the vote—
Ayes
that that connection should exist at first. In the first in-
Noes
stance they would acquire pictures by purchase, the object
not being to acquire great works of art, but authentic
portraits. It wee hoped that, considering the very large
number of historical portraits in this city, greater, he a-
llayed, than in any other city in Europe, owing to the .
happy exemption this city had enjoyed from intestine com-
motion, a good collection might bo formed. It was not to
be supposed that any large number of these portraits would
find their way into the market, family portraits being che-
rished beyond any other class of pictures. Ii might, how-
ever, be expected that, in some instances, if a g diery of
this sort was established persons would be disposed to nicks
presents to the cation of historical portraits, and no doubt
means would be found, as the noble lord bad stated, in
cases where the original portraits dould not be obtained, to
employ artists who would make correct copies of them,
which would form a chain in a chronological series which it
might be desirous to est:tell:de He we:Ant not say that be-
fore this vote was obtained Government had thought it de-
sirable to lay down any principle on which the vote should
be anutirdstered, but so far as they had formed views on the
subject., their desire would be in the first instance to begin
with a collection of pictures, which might be contributed
voluntarily, merely to form a temporary exhibition, of
which the large building which would shortly be com-
menced at Kensington-gore, and which was the •subject of
the next vote, would be a convenient receptacle. But he
could assure the committee that it was a subject which
would engage the attention of the Government. It was
their desire to administer this vote in such a manner as to
lay the foundation of a collection of historical portraits,
which would prove interesting to those who desired to
study the history of the country, and would form a sup-
plement to those documentary treasures which we pos-
sessel illustrative of our national history.
Mr. SPOONER said this was not a legitimate way of
expending the revenue of this country. The labouring
class of this country were taxed for the sugar, anti the tea,
and the coffee that they used, and those taxes ought not to
be applied for the entertainment of persons in a high class
of life. Although this vote was a trifling one, it was ley-
' ing the foundation of a greet gallery, which would ulti-
mately cost a large remount.
Mr.- W. WILLIAMS agreed with the hon. member
(err. Spooner), area was glad to find him displaying such a
spirit. They had already statues of great men in this
amutry, and there were portraits of distinguished naval
officers at Greenwich. They were also having a collection '
of statues in the avenues to that house of persons who were
considered to be the most eminent men iu the country, and
he believed there was a great difference of opinion with
regard to some of them. Who were to be the eminent men
whose portraits they were to have? Before they were called
upon to vote this money they ought to know whose por-
traits were to be placed in the gallery. He hoped the hon.
member would divide the house against the vote • be
should like him to have the credit of it. Ho had begun
to look to the other side of the house for economy.
Mr. L. DAVIES said they were beginning on the wrong
principle. This vote would become greater every year, and
the magnitude of the gallery would become an argument
for continuing the expenditure. He thought it au unjus-
tifiable expenditure, especially seeing that only the inhabi-
tants of the metropolis would have an opportunity of see-
ing the gallery.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE thought the bad taste die-
planed with reference to the statue of the Duke of Welling-
ton on Constitution•hill ought to be a warning to them
how they voted public money for such a purpose es then
proposed. He had no reliance on those who would have
the selection of the portraits. He die not think it possible
to conceive greater difference of opinion than would exist
as to the selection of these portraits. With regard to the
statues in the avenue leading, to the house, he could have
selected merry in preference to those that were there.
Take, for instance, Cromwell. He should have thoueht
that any man would have considered Cromwell was one of
those great ornaments of this country that he, above all
men, ought not to have been excluded. They roust recol-
lect they were not legislating for the metropolis alone, bat
were levying. taxes on an overburdened and patient people.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could not agree with the hon.
member for L,mbeth or the hon. gentleman behind him
(Mr. Spooner). He thought that this work had been. pro-
perly commenced in another plac) by a noble friend of his,
who had achieved or great name as ono of the historians of
this city. The prop sition was sensed to unanimously in
the other house, and he hoped the House of Comm• is would
not refuse so small a grant for the promotion of a national
object.
Lord PALMERSTON said the argument.; against this
vote applied to every grant connected either with the arts
or the history of the country, and on the same principle
they. ought to have no statues, no public collection of paint-
ings, anti; in short, they ought to confine the expenditure
of the country to that which was strictly necessary for the
administration of affairs. That had not been the practice
of any country that had had a pride in itself, a sense of its
own dignity,and a desire to elevate the minds of the people
by objects which might excite their admiration. It was.
said that the people of this country would have no oppor-
tunity of seeing these things, and that was said about a
week or ten days' after London was filled by hundreds of
thousands of persons coining from every part of the coun-
try to see a display of fireworks; and after the recollec-
tion of the multitudes who came week after weekend month
after mouth from all p irts of the country to sOO the Great
Exhibition of 1851. Really he must say it was against one
of the fundamental principles of human nature when they
said th'.t a collection of the portraits of men who had been
distingiii-hed in the history of the country wns not an ob-
ject won thy of a small expenditure ou the pert of the ne-
ther. In the first place, would any man who would exa-
mine his own mind say it was not a great gratification to
him to see the portrait of a person whose actions had ex-
cited his admiration in former times? Why, it had
been often said whew they read history, it was merely
a recall of abstract mimes. They read of a man named
Caesar, and of a man named Pompey, but they had no
notion what sort of a man Caesar was, or what sort
of a man Pompey was; but if they had a picture so that
they might see what Caesar or Pompey was like, how
much greater was the interest. In the same way he was
quite sure it would afferd the people of this country satis-
faction to see the features and portraits of man whose ac-
tions had excited interest in red ling the history of this
country. .fiat then they were told these portraits would
consist of portraits of many people whom some might think
not altogether deserving their approbation. Why in a free
cote try where there has been at all times contending
parties, of course one of those parties would like to see the
portraits of those who had bean the most pre-eminent of
their party, and those who had the feelings of the oppo-
nents of those men would naturally prefer to look on the
I be it:Teased in recording the history of past times, awl a
• portraits of those who agreed with them. But they must
collection of `shim sort must be made of men most remark-
-able in history, whatever side of politics they had adopted,
and whatever might have been their career there would
always be some who would look on them with approba-
tion, and there would, of course, be others who had a slit-
' ferent opinion. This was a small vote. Of course it was
not intended to ransack all the country houses to collect
pictures of uncles and aunts. (Laughter.) The object
was, as his right bon friend had explained, not to collect
works of art, but to collect the portraits of those who had
been distinguished in the history of the country. Of
course there must be judgment exercised in the selection
of other persons. In other countries they did the same
tiring. Every ono would recollect at Versailles the great
collection of portraits of persona who had been distin-
guished in the history of France, and why should we feel
less proud than other nations in collecting the portraits of
those eh° had gone before us? And never let it be for-
gotten that there could not be a greater incentive to good
conduct than for persons to sea brought before them those
who were worthy of their approbation, and whose ex-
ample they might be more induced to imitate when they
saw them brought before them in a tangible shape.
Mr. ROEBUCK quite agreed with the noble bad about
the great advantages of a gallery of this sort. The inscri ti-
tbit] over the Pantheon at Paris, " Aux grands hernmes la
petters eat reconeaissante,”
always appeared to him most
touching. Bat he heel another doubt, and that was tie to
the persons eppointed for the selection ; for he had heard it
ceitt that from their hall was excluded Cioinwell—(loud
cries of " Hear, hear")—who was proposed to be those set
forth in his image as a great man belonging to this country,
He cert•airtly was one of the rulers of our country, and one
of the greatest rnlera—(hear, hear)—and he, he was told,
was excluded frern that ball because lee was not what was
celled a king. Now if this vote was to be used to shut
out those who were really the honour arid the pride of this
country, though they might not be legitimate kines or
le,qitiinete inheritors of bonoure, then he should mot be for
this vote ; but he believed that public opinion would
guide those who selected the portraits, and he should there-
fore support the vote.
Mr. SPOONER said he did noe object because the por-
traits of improper of persons-might be admitted, but because

... 23
... -69

Majority
The vote was therefore agreed to
10,0001. for the removal of the School of Art from Marl
borough House to Kensington-gora.
Lord R. GROSVE.NOtt suggested that this vote should
be postponed. The removal of the School of Art was
stated in an explanatory latter to be owing to the proposed
alteration in the road oat of the Mall into Pall-mall. This
subject would be discussed on a subequent vote, and as
two alternatives were proposed, either of which would ren-
der the removal unnecessary, they ought surely to discuss
those plans first. (Hear, hear )
Mr. WILSON said that the circumstance referred to by
the noble lord was :only a'very minor ground for the re-
moval of the school. 'the truth was, the school occupied
Marlborough-house under awed of Parliament for only a
limited period, and it was absolutely necessary that it

should leave in goDd time, so as to enable the house to be
got ready against the time when the Prince of Wales would
come of age. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PeLLATT objected to the plan of
.having these
schools in different parts of the town. They vaght to be
brought under one roof.
Sir J. PAXTON supported the vote. The present
school building was in ►► very dangerons state, and might
be destroyed at any moment by lire. They ought to be
removed as soon as possible.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS considered that they ought to have
a plan of the entire buildings contemplated at Kensington-
gore, and that they ought also to have an estimate of the
probable cost. There was an impression abroad that the
ultimate expense to the country would be some millions of
money ; and he was afraid there was only too much ground
for that opinion. BosideS, it was really too bad to expect
the students to go to Kensington—it was a day's journey,
and they would have to make it in all weathers. The pur-
chase of this land had been a great mistake. It was said
that the pictures would be out of the smoke of London ;
but considering what wore the prevailing winds, he consi-
dered that that would prove a great mistake. There ought
to be a committee to see what the plans of the Government
really were. (Hear.)
Mr. DISRA.ELI said the real question was whether the
schools at Marlborough-house wore to be removed ; and it
was most fortunate that they had this place at Kensington.

Mr. SPOONER was afraid that few members of thecom-
mittee had read the book he held in his band— the 3d Re-
port of the Commissioners of the Exhibition of 1331. That
report would make him very careful how he omitted to
divide in future ; for he found it stated that the House of
Commons had been unanimous in its approval of the pur-
chase at Kensiugton-gore, whereas the truth was he had
oppessd it at the time, but he had not insisted on a division
out of deference to the wish of the committee. (Mr. Dis-
raeli here made some private observation.) He (Mr. Spoo-
ner) was not io be put down either by the right hon. gen-
tleman opposite, who had called him "narrow-minted," or
by his right hon. friend, in front of him, who called him
(so it was understoo.l) a' Madman." (Great laughter.) He
thought that experience ought to make hon. members
chary of giving their assent to fresh votes, although the
amount be small. There was s,nother questionwhich he should
like to have considered, and that was, in whom was the legal
estate of this land ve3ted? He found from the report that
it was the commissioners. Now, it would be well to know
what power the state had over these commissioners, and
how, in case of dispute, the beneficial interest, which was
the property of Government, could be made available. It
appeared to him that 100,0;0'. had been laid out in the pur-
chase of property which was in the hands of irresponsible
commissioners upon a mere understanding. Was this a
right manner in which to invest public money? He had
heard of. the corruptions of an unreformed Parliament ;
but he was quite sere that in the days of his youth no
Minister would have dared to present such a vote to what
it was the fashion to call a Tory Parliament. Ho objected
to the vote of any more money for this subject.
Mr. WILSON said that the vote before the committee
had nothing to do with the purchase of land at Kensington,
but he felt he ought to say a few words with regard to the
title to that land. It was perfectly tine that the legal estate
of this property was vested in the commissioners of 1851,
but then that legal estate was subject to equitable rights
and control which that house and the public could enforce.
It was true this equitable right was based upon a mernorau-
dum which the hon. gentleman might call au understanding
if ha p'eased, but which was binding upon the commission-
'ery the acceptance which they had given to it. With
regard to this vote, it was for erecting an iron building in
the outlying' portion of the property, for the purpose of re-
moving•_it to the Marlborough house. establishment.
Mr. HENLEY thought it must he admitted that it was
necessary to find some place to which to remove the • con-
tents of Marlborough-house. He, however, doubted the
economy of patting up temporary buildings. The estimate
stated it was proposed to remove the temporary buildings
at Marlborongh-house. These were wretched wooden sheds,
which "had already been condemned as disgraceful to the
metropolis, besides being very dangerous in case of fire.
Sir .3. 'SHELLEY would like to hear if this 10,0001. was
for the mere renioval of the temporary buildings at Marl-
borough -1) o use.
- Mr. WILSON said that the vote was chiefly for the
purpose of erectieg an iron building on the property at
Krsington.

Mr. DISRAELI remarlce3 that these vote& did not com-
ensues a ith a ern sum, as his hon. friend (Mr. Spooner)
seemed to suppose. The first vote proposed was 15J,030/.,
and the increase which had taken place was only to the
extent of 25,0001., which was rendered necessary by the
opportnuity which offered itself of purchasing a piece of
land fitted to carry out the scheme in view. With regard
to the title, he might say that it was not by the desire of
the royal commissioners that the legal estate was vested in
them, but by the express wish of the Government. The
t-mporary building to which his hon. friend referred, and
for which the house had voted money, hid not been raised
at the desire of the Royal commission, but at the time it
was planned the Museum of Science and Art was about to
bo retneved from its sit'aation ; and several valuable collec-
tions, amongst others that of Mr. Turner, had been offered
to the country, if a place, could be provided for them. It
wee to meet these necessities that the Government deter-
mined to raise a temporary buil ling of iron and glass, and
applied to the Royal cornini,sion to as ist them. He felt
convinced that tha committee would tike a large view of
the question, and remember that the first necessity of a
country like Eoglend was to refitre and cultivate the taste
of its people, and bring to the aid of its manufactures all
the refinements of art. (Hear.)
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to know what were the
intentions of the Government with regard to Burlingto:-

house?
Mr. WILON said that at present no plan had been
determined on for building on the site of Burlington-
house; but the Government were anxious to make the pre-
sent building available until circumstances would allow
them to do so. An arrangement had, therefore, been, made,
by which the London University would occupy the right
wing for their ordinary examination. The centre build-
ing would be given up to the Royal, the Chemical,
and the Linnrean Societies. In return for this accommo-
dation these societies would give up the rooms they now
had at Somerset-house, which would become available for
the Inland Revenue. The societies had further agreed to
unite their three magnificent libraries, which would bo
open to any person introduced by a fellow. (Hear, hear )
The left wing of the building would be converted, at a small
expense, into a large hall, in which the annual examina-
tion of the London University and the weekly meetings of
the three societies would be held. The Royal Society had
further agreed to place their splendid collection of por-
traits in this hall, where they would be open to public in-
kpection.
Mr. CARD WELL referred to the vote before Vet) house.
It arose from the necessity of bringing the whole business
of the department to Gore-house.
Col.. BOLDERO wished to know whether the learned
societies were to pay rent for Burlington-house. The best
thicg the Government could do with the building would
be to convert it into barracks, which were much wanted,
and for which it was wall adapted.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote,
21,700 for the new road from Pall-Mall to Beckingham -
gate, and afoot-bridge across the ornamental water,
Lord R. GROSVENOR, pursuant to notice, moved that
it be deferred for six months, with a VieW to re-considee a.
tion of the subject of ireprovement in St. Jarnee's-park by
a select committee of this house, before any expenditure is
incurred for such purpose. He theuebt the motion .was at
least premature. If the house voted this large sum they
would add another to many failures in the so-called me ro-
pelitan improvements. Too great improvements which hid
lately been made at Paris formed a great source of attrac-
tion for the thousands that docked there every year. With
ono institution it might not be possible to emulate what
had been done there, but matters might be managed better
than they were. It wasimpossibleto say whose duty it was
to propose or carry out any improvement—whether the
corporation of London, the First ConainisSionet of Public