The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-25 00:00:00

COMMON HALL, JUNE 21.

THE EXTRAORDINARY MISTAKE MADE BY
THE RECORDER.
Mr. STEVENS came forward to call the attention of the
Livery to the late conduct of the Recorder in sending
down a warrant to Newgate for the execution of a man,
named Job Cox, notwithstanding the fact that the Royal
mercy had been extended to that prisoner, amongst many
others. It must, he said, have been most painful to those
he addressed, as well as to himself, to observe in the
newspapers a report of what was believed to have oc-
curred before his Majesty's Privy Council, relative to the
case of a convict who had been sentenced to die, and the
warrant for whose execution the Recorder had signed and
sealed, and transmitted to Newgate, to be carried into
effect by the Sheriffs.—(Groans and hisses at the Re-
corder.) It was the right of the meeting to inquire into
the authenticity of any report with the circumstances of
which it was probable they might, from the nature of
their office, be acquainted. It appeared from the report
he allu ted to that it was by mere chance the life of au
individual was not taken away, and that, too, in conse-
quence of the conduct of an officer of the citizens of Lon-
don.—(Loud groans.) He wished to know from the
Sheriffs whether the account which appeared in the news.
papers was true?
The LORD MAYOR stepped forward and said—lt is not
my wish by any means to interrupt any discussion which
you may think proper to engage in, but I am acquainted
with this subject, and it is my duty to state that it has
been taken up this day by the Court of Aldermen, whose
officer the Recorder is.
Mr. HUNT—What do we care for the Court of Alder-
n ?
The LORD MAYOR—The Court of Aldermen appointee.
him, and he is their officer. A Committee of the whole
Court has been appointed to investigate the case. Now,
as great agitation seems to exist on the question, I submit
whether it would not be advisable to wait for that investi-
gation —(Criss of " No, no.") The Court has men-
tioned the circuit stance to the Recorder—[We understand
that upon the motion of Alderman Venabl. a, the Com-
mittee was appoinel—and he admits that he has com-
mitted an error.—(Groans, arid laughter.) The Com-
mittee will, however, duly investigate the whole matter ;
and, under the circumstances, I submit whether it would
not be proper to postpone this discussion.—(Cries of
" No, no," with cheers for the Lord Mayor.)
Mr. Sxevkses felt high gratification at what they hail
been told was the determination of the Court of Alder-
men. The conduct of that Court in at once taking up
the question did them infinite credit; but he was of opi-
nion that he should not be doing his duty to his fellow-
citizens or the public, if he did not express his feelings,
and propose a means of assisting the Court of Aldermen
in the duty which they were about to perform in their
Committee. He understood that had it not been for a
conversation which accidentally tock place between the
Chief Justice of the King's Bench and one of the Under
Sheriffs, a fellow creature might by this time not have
been in existence.—(Loud groans, and several persons,
looking towards the Reoorder, cried out, " Oh, Job Cox
Job Cox !") From this error it was evident that the
Recorder was an old man, imbecile, and utterly unfit to
perform the duties of the office he held.—(Loud cheers.)
It appeared that the Recorder had been present at the very
Priv!' Council at which the Royal clemency was extended
to the convict, and that he followed up that act of mercy
by issuing his warrant with the black seal.—(Expressiuns
of disgust.) He (Mr. Stevens) requested to know whether
the statements in the papers were correct?
Sheriff HUMPIIERy—They certainly are correct.
Mr. STEvENs said, there was another extraordinary
mistake, as it appeared to him. It appeared that up to
Thursday night the Recorder persisted in the mistake he
had committed. Now, he would ask whether, after
such conduct, such a man was fit to be continued in such
an office ?—(Loud cries of " No, no, never.") If the
unfortunate man had perished, what recompence ssould it
be to his friends that he had died by mistake ? He (Mr.
Stevens) had prepared resolutions on the subject in aid of
the Coin t of Aldermen, and lie trusted the meeting would
adopt them.—(Loud cheers.) Ile then reed the reso-
lutions—(for which see advertisement).
Sheriff HUMPIIERY knew nothing of the length of time
the Recorder continued in his mistake, but he knew that
the Recorder had made it.
That part of the resolution which alluded to the neces-
sity of applying to the Learned Gentleman to resign, was
received with shouts of applause and laughter.
Mr. HUNT seconded tie resolution. The Lord Mayor
had, he said, acted well in telling them that the Court of
Aldermen were about to take up the question; but the
Livery would take care that the Court of Aldermen should
not smother or strangle it.—(Laughter and cheers.) It
was said that the Recorder was not an officer of the
Lively. If he was not, what hail he to do there that day ?
What brought him amongst them at all? He was their
officer, and they would pass their opinion upon him.
What might not have been the consequence if the public
press had not directed the attention of the Chief Justice to
the error ? Why this imbecile old man would have
allowed the Sheriffs to go down to Newgate, and a fellow-
creature would have lost his life.—(Groans.) Many an
innocent man had been executed, but here was a man
whose life had been spared by the Sovereign, to be en-
dangered by the Recorder, who was so much in the habit
of signing death-warrants, that be looked upon the case
as a mere matter of course, and considered that, notwith-
standing all that had been done,the man ought to be hanged.
Now if it had happened that the man had been ex.
ecuted, would not that have been murder?—(Loud cries
of " Yes," and groans.) He knew what the law would
say in the event of such a transaction, but he would not
hesitate to say himself, that the person who caused the
execution ought to be hanged upon the same gallows
himself.—(Loud laughter, cheers, and groans.) He was
not fond of shedding blood, but if blood had been shed,
he certainly should wish to behold the Learned Officer
taking the place of the murdered man.—(Loud cheers,
and groans, and laughter.) He agreed in the resolutions,
but he believed they would have no effect upon the man
they applied to, the habits of that Learned Gentleman were
such, that an appeal to him would prove quite ineffectual;
but if the Livery encountered any difficulty in accom-
plishing his removal, a Common Hall should be forth-
with summoned to address the King.—(Loud and con-
tinued cheering.)
Mr. HAINES (the Common Councilman) said, that it
had been imputed to him that he had neglected to bring
forward a motion of which he had given notice, relative to
the conduct of the Recorder, about two years age, in
keeping a report all night in his pocket. He hail repeatedly
attempted to tiring forward that motion, but the Court
had overruhd him. The case was a very serious one, and
a natural forerunner of the late mistake, which no one
more deeply reprobated than he.—(Loud cheers.) He most
fully acquiesced in the resolutions, and hoped they would
immediately have the desired effect.
The resolutions were agreed to amidst the most awful
acclamations, and with the most complete unanimity.

STATE OF TRADE AT BOLTON.—Withiit
the last month the demand for our manufactures, both
plain and fancy, has been brisk, and large sales have been
effected, chirfly for shipping, at better prices. The
weavers are in full employment ; but, we are sorry to say,
without any material improvement in Wages.— Wakefield
Journal.

IRON TRADE.—Messrs. KENRICK and Co.,
of the Varteg Irun Works, near Pontypool, have advanced
the wages of their workmen 10 per cent., although they
were not reduced when the price of iron was so very low.,
M0717/2Mith shire Merlin.

THE HARVEST.—COUNTY OF DUBLIN.—
We are delighted to learn that the wheat crop in the
neighbourhood of Dublin has escaped injury from the late
heavy rains. The fine weather, yesterday, greatly facili-
tated the saving of hay, which is stated to be, in general,
a plentiful crop.—. Dublin Morning Register.

HO USE OF LORDS, JuNg 24.
Mr. BERNAL and others brought up the Exchequer
Bills Bill, and other private Bills.
The Edinburgh Improvement Bill was read a third
time, and passed.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition
from Inverness and its neighbourhood, praying their
Lordships to take early measures for the extinction of
slavery in the West Indies, due regard being had for the
safety of the colonies and the rights of property.
Lard SUFFIELD presented a petition from Hexham,
in Northumberland. praying for Church Reform.
The Separatists Affirmation Bill was read a first time.
The LORD CHANCELLOR having taken his seat on the
Woolsack,
Lord ELLENBO ROUGH rose and said, before the
order of the day was read he wished to ask a question or
two concerning the resolutions to be proposed to the
House to-morrow on the subject of slavery in the West
Indies, which it was important f.,r their Lordships to
know. The first related to the compensation granted to
the proprietors and slave owners in the West Indies.
It was important they should know at what time and in
what manner it was proposed by his Majesty's Govern-
ment, that the 20,000,000/. were to be raised, and how
it was proposed to pay the interest ? And further, it was
extreme!), important to know whether it was the intention
of his Majesty's Government to propose any measure this
session, with a view to carry into effect the resolutions to
be contained in the Message to-morrow ?
Earl GREY apprehended that the proper time for re-
considering the matters contained in these questions was
when the whole subject came regularly before the House.
It was proposed by the resolutions, to grant a sum of
money as compensation, but the time for the payment
of that money was to depend upon the Legislative
assemblies passing such measures as would carry the reso-
lutions into eff-ct. As to the manner of raising the money,
and the terms of it, he was not at that moment prepared
to answer the Noble Lord. To-morrow it was proposed
only to call upon the House to •agree with the general
principle of giving freedom to the slaves, on the principle
of compensation. The next question of the Noble Baron
was, whether it was the intention of the Government to
go on with the measure in the present session. To that
he had to say, that the Bill was already prepared, and
would be introduced into the other House, and proceeded
with instantly.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH begged to ask further whe-
ther the Bill related to compensation only, or to other
matters?

Earl GREY—The Bill does relate to the other parts of
the question.

LOCAL COURTS.
On the order of the day being read for the House re-
solving itself into Committee on the Local Courts Bill,
The E,rl of ELDON rose. He thought this one of
the most objectionable Bills that had been introduced,
with many others, into Parliament, and, so help him
God, it was his opinion if it passed en masse, no man
would be able to explain the law out of Londor with re-
spect to real property.—(Hear.) Nothing but the most
sincere wish to do his duty to the subjects of the country,
and particularly to the poorer ones, would have induced
him to give that determined opposition to the
Bill which he was afraid he should feel himself
compelled to do. If the House should think it right to
go into Committee on the Bill, and should make such al-
terations in it as to render its objectionable p irts no longer
so, he would come down prepared to support its third
reading; but if, as he thought, it was of such a nature
as to render it incapable of being made a
Bill to which he could accede, be should feel
it to be his duty, on the third reading, to record the
dissent of an old lawyer to it. In his opinion, the Bill
was a mere experiment—a species of legislation which,
be thanked God, that House hail not hitherto sanctioned.
The first object professed by the Bill was to have local
courts, not throughout the country, but in such
counties, or in such districts of counties, as

the framers of the Bill might wish to try their
experiment in. What would be the consequence of that?
Why that in six or eight districts of a county they would
act according to the old law, and in one or two others
they would proceed upon the experimental law.—(Hear.)
No man who had not lived so long in the profession as he
had, knew the difference between old experienced Judges
and a young man who had been only 10 years at the bar,
or a sergeant at law, who might not have been 10 years at
the bar. He should never consent, therefore, to letting
the causes of the people be tried by any other than the
ancient Judges of the land. The second part of the Bill
was as much an experiment as the first; he meant that
with respect to the Court of Reconcilement. Another
part of the Bill was to make a vast alteration in the law
of p:actice. The Noble Earl concluded by moving that
the Bill be recommitted this day six months.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he was sure his
Noble Friend would soon view the Bill in some other light
than he did at present, though he was afraid be would not
support it. He thought lie had some reason to complain
of the manner in which he had been met to night by
the Noble and Learned Lord who had just sat
down. He was now to undergo another process, and
combat another Noble and Learned Lord.—(Hear, hear.)
Their Lordships had decided in favour of the prin-
ciple the other night, and now, when it was pro-
po:,ed to go into Committee, there was another debate
upon the principle, and so the thing might go on for ever.
The alarm respecting law reforms, which on this, as on
former occasions, his Noble and Learned Friend had ma.
nifested, seemed to deprive him of that acuteness and accu-
racy of judgment which were necessary in coming to
a correct knowledge of the nature and principles of the
intended alterations. He confidently expected, that when
the measure was reduced to its proper size,—when it was
shown in its own true and natural dimensions,—when it
was proved that it was not likely to produce those evils
which the scared imagination of his Noble and Learned
Friend had predicted, it would receive the sanction of
the House: He could not, however, and he was sorry for
it, hope for the support of his Noble and Learned Friend
to the measure,—he could not hope that his Noble and
Learned Friend would hereafter feel less repugnance to it
than he did at present. First of all his Noble and Learned
Friend, exercising his own judgment on the subject, had
assumed that a mass of measures, having extensive law
reforms for their object, were to be considered at once,—
were to be taken in the lump,—were to be swallowed at
one gulp,—without any time being given for deglutition or
digestion. So far from that being the case, the purpose

of those who had the care of these measures was io avoid
such haste,—to render it, if it were possible, impossible
for any one to bring that charge. To attempt to pre-
clude the bare possibility of himself and bis Learned Friend
being subjected to such a charge, the measures had all
been separated ; they had been kept sedulously apart ; one
by one they had been propounded to their Lordships—one
by one they bad been brought forward, with such expla-
nations as could be given of them,—and on no occasion
had their Lordships been called on to consider more than
one of them. All they bad done on any occasion, and all
they had been called on to do on any given evening, was
to advance one of these measures one little moderate step.
His Noble and Learned Friend had expressed himself
sorry that they were legislating in such a hurry ; but to
show how slowly they had proceeded, he would just ad-
vert to the course which had been pursued. First, the
principle of the Bill was, by agreement, to be taken and
discussed on the motion for going into Committee. He
(the Lord Chanc,llor) came down and opened the measure
to their Lordships, a debate ensued, was brought to a
close, and, without a division, the House resolved itself
into a Committee on the Bill. Why, then, one would have
thought, when their Lordships had gone into Com-
mittee, and disposed of the principle of the mea•ure,—
when, in fact, they had been twice in Committee, and
made amendments in the Bill, that all further opposition
to the measure as a whole would have been at an end. But
now, on a motion for recommitting the Bill, up got his Noble
and Learned Friend and made a motion which was directed
against not only the details but the principle of the mea-
sure, which had already been recognised. He never knew
such a course to have been adopted in either House of
Parliament. On the motion that the House should re-
solve itself into a Committee, into which they had pre-
viously gone, and in which they bad made some progress,
and when they were about to make still, further progress,
his Noble and Learned Friend rose and proposed the
extraordinary amendment that the Bill should be recom-
mitted that day six months, instead of going on, and mak-
ing some further progress in this great question. This
course of proceeding was somewhat hard on their Lord-
ships. He would not complain of any inconvenience
which it had caused to himself, although be must say

that it was a hardship on him also. They had taken the
debate on the principle,—they had gone into Committee,—
night after night, by considering the Bill in Committee,
they had admitted the principle,—and yet several at-
tempts had afterwards been made to impugn it. One
night he had a long argument with one Noble and Learned
Friend (Lord Lyndhurst), when the principle of the Bill
was largely discussed; that Noble and Learned Friend
came down on another night, and, on the motion for com-
mitting the Bill, entered on the same subject ; and now,
when they were about recommitting the Bill, he was corn
pelted again to renew the debate with hie other Noble and
Learned Friend. When this debate was closed, and his
Noble and Learned Friend's motion was negatived, as he
hoped their Lordships would negative it, after they had gone
into the Committee, and made some progress, he supposed
some other Noble Lord would, on a future occasion, come
down and renew the discussion of the principle of the
measure, renew the debate, renew the opposition to the
Bill, and with precisely the same result. He knew not
where this sort of proceeding was to end—he knew not
when the discussion was to terminate—if this plan were
adopted ; because he who was defeated one night might,
after three deb ace, come forward and raise a fourth de-
bate; another Noble Lord might raise, in the same man-
ner, a fifth debate, and thus create an immensity of delay.
They might still go on thus debating the principle of the
Bill (after it had been decided on), day after day, and that,
too, on one stage of the measure. This he thought a
most extraordinary mode of meeting a question. He never
knew it to have been adopted in the greatest heats that
had prevailed in either House of Parliament. He had
never known such a system to have been acted on
in the House of Commons, amidst the fiercest debates,
for the purpose of carrying any point. Such a course
had not been pursued even on that great question
the Reform Bill, although the greatest disposition
to oppose and to obstruct it prevailed. On that occa-
sion, the course of opposition which Noble Lords now
adopted had not been brought forward in either House of
Parliament. He judged, from some of his Noble and
Learned Friend's objections, that be had misunderstood,
because he had certainly misrepresented the details of this
Bill. His Noble and Learned Friend complained that it
was an experiment. In one sense he would claim the
expression, he had made use of it himself, but certainly
not in the sense in which his Noble and Learned Friend
used it, nor in the sense in which it had been used by his
Noble and Learned Friend the late Chief Justice of the
Common Pleas, from similar inadvertence. There was
no one that ever mooted the question of local courts
for the last fifteen years—and he followed several who
had done so—who were not convinced that the establish-
ment of those courts was expedient, that such courts
were necessary—that the time had come when this
great and salutary improvement of the law should be
carried into effect—that the Legislature was called on to
grant this mighty blessing, this act of common justice
to his Majesty's subjects. It was no experiment, there-
fore, on this point—namely, whether these courts
were expedient or necessary, or ought to be established.
If any Noble Lord doubted this, and much less if he
denied it, if he thought this was an experiment in the
sense of the Noble and Learned Lords to whom he had
alluded, he certainly would have no right to expect that
Noble Lord's support on this occ 'shin. But the Bill pro-
ceeded on a principle the very contrary of that which had
been asserted. It went to put an end to the doubt that
such courts ought to be established. The point was settled.
But thus far it was an experiment—it was deemed neces-
sary to see how the plan worked, in order that they might
know bow to improve its machinery, and to render its
details more perfect ; and, therefore, it was proposed to
establish two or three of these courts in different places
before they were spread over the whole country. They
would thus have tie advantage of knowing bow far the
details answered,—how far the machinery of the court
was effective,—how far the minuter parts of the system
were adapted to answer the proposed end, which it was
impossible for them to know till they bad had the
benefit of experience. They would thus be enabled
to avoid evils, and to introduce that which would be
good and advantageous to the measure according to
the information which this trial would afford them.
There was, however, no question whatever as to the
expediency of establishing those courts. There was
nothing of experiment in that. All that was aimed
at in taking this course was to give a fair trial to the
working of the detaiie and machinery of the measure, in
order that they might see what they would do. To show
how unfairly men, actuated by strong feelings, and anxious
to advance, even at I•azard, strong objections against a
measure, were apt to conduct themselves, he would jest
advert to what had been alleged against this measure and
the introducers of it. If he had at once said, " Let those
courts be immediately established over all England—let
local courts be fixed in every county or every part of a
county, where it may seem desirable," would not his
Noble and Learned Friend have exclaimed—" What ! are
you going to establish 20 or 25 courts, before any mortal
man can possibly know whether the machinery of those
courts is adapted to your purpose ? I recommend you,
in the first instance, to try three or four courts ; you
will then see how the machinery of the proposed Bill is
likely to answer, and you will know how to proceed.
Improvements may be suggested, and then, and then only,
you may spread those courts all over the country." His
Noble and Learned Friend objected to the inschinery of
the Court of reconcilement, and spoke of the in-xpediency
of making the Judge of the local court also a Judge in
cases of reconcilement, inasmuch as if he failed in recon-
ciling the parties, he would not be able with any
degree of propriety to try the cause. His Noble and
Learned Friend complained that this difficulty was
not provided for, but he (the Lord Chancellor)
maintained that it was, and that the only thing necessary
was to take the two contiguous districts and unite the
courts to this extent, that no reconcilement cases which failed
in the one court should be taken as actions to the other.
His Noble and Learned Friend had alluded to him as at-
tacking the profession of the law to which he had the
honour to belong (a profession to which, and to the
members of which, he felt as sincerely attached as his Noble
and Learned Friend), and his Noble and Learned Friend
appeared to blame him for having described some of the
members of that profession as being hostile to changes
and improvements in the law, and liable to the general
charge of illibetality. Now, he certainly had stated, and
was ready to repeat the statement, that it was not
unnatural, but the very contrary (though much to be
regretted) that from their character and habits, lawyers
were most averse from change in any part of the system
under which many of them bad lived long, in which they
had grown old, and to which they were attached; that
they were, beyond all bounds of reason or justice, averse,
not so seuch on account of their own interest, in many
cases (such as that of his Noble and Learned Friend), as
in consequence of irresistible prejudice to any material
alteration in the law ; and, further, that in a great num-
ber of cases they were influenced in their opposition to
change by views connected with their own interest by
which they could not help being swayed, and for being
swayed by which he did not blame, but, on the con-
trary,
wasrary, perfectly natural
them. Under such circumstances,
uatural that persons in the legal
profession shoseid be extremely set against improve-
ments in the law, and should oppose them witli all their
might. He said nothing against it ; it was quite natural
and unavoidable; but that was no reason why he should
yield to the opposition—(Hear)—it was no reason why
their Lordships should yield to it. It might be the interest
of the legal profession to resist such Bills as the present;
but it was not the interest of the country or of suitors
that they should be resisted successfully; their Lordships
would bear that in mind, and, moreover, that the interest
of members of the profession of the law constituted no
reason for the legislature turning a deaf ear to the cases of
those who were the prey of the profession, or, more pro-
perly speaking, of the abuses and faults of the existing
system. He would go further, and say that the system
itself might be to a considerable extent good—its founda-
tion might be solid, and the bulk of the superstructure
pure—the benefits count cted with it might outweigh its
defects ; all this might be perfectly true of our legal
system, but did it follow that we were not to introduce
all the improvements which it required, and of which it
was susceptible ?—( Hear.) He asked their Lordships,
or any other men living who had no sinister motives or
private interests to warp their judgments, whether bene-
ficial alterations ought to be impeded because of the
reluctance of the profession to admit them ? He ap•
pealed from the narrow prejudices of a few indivi-
duals, and from the interested views of more, and
from the sinister motives of others, to the good sense
of their Lordships and of all mankind,—lie appealed
from those whose prejudices, quite apart from, and inde-
pendent of, any possible private interest or personal motive

leagued them (as in the case of his Noble and Learne
Friend) with the interested members of the profession, and
induced them to lend their powerful co-operation to tho,
who were steadiastly set against all improvement—he ap-
pealed from such individuals to the country.—(Hear.)
This de-
scribed system been
d a
as a l but o f
a localrevolution, j u
rs
d ic
twhichonwwh aieshc hhaarda s te rjs
unsettling the foundations of property and tearing up law
by the roots, bad been in a considerable degree the lass
of Ireland for the last half century. In that country a
similar system, extending like the present to sums of 201..
had long existed without causing society to be disorgan
ized, the country to be laid waste, or the foundations of
property and all rights to be destroyed. Not one of the
speculators and theorists who had of late years discussed
Irish affairs ascribed the mischie aof which they corn
plained to the jurisdiction of assistant barristers under the
civil bill process, yet, as he had already stated, to the ex-
tent of 201. the local courts possessed jurisdiction all over
that p irt of the kingdom. When Lord Clare first esta-
blished that system, he was charged, pretty much as
another Chancellor had lately been charged, with an un-
natural hatred of hie own profession, with a. neglect of
their interests, if not with a disposition to destroy the
profession. Lord Clare despised these charges; he went
on ; the Legislature adopted his plan in 1794 or 1795,
about the period of the French revolutionary war, when
there existed a morbid hatred of all improvements, pro-
vided they were to be effected by any change in existing
institutions ; notwithstanding, that, the Legislature
adopted the measure which had been since, to the great
ben.fit of that part of the kingdom, the law of the 'and.
His Noble and Learned Friend had made some remarks on
the subject of the bankruptcy system, and he confessed
he did feel a little surprised at the course of his Noble and
Learned Friend's observations. His Noble and Learned
Friend said so much in praise of the existing system, and,
landed all persons connected with its administration so,
highly, more particularly the country commissioners, that
he could hardly believe his own ears when he beard such
an eulogium fall from the Noble and Learned Lord's lips.
Surely, thought he (the Lord Chancellor), the Court of
Chancery had produced a marvellous effect en his Noble
Friend, or else his Noble Friend's retirement from that
office which he now so unworthily filled had worked a
mighty change in his Noble Friend's sentiments; for it
did so happen that the first or second day of his Noble
and Learned Friend's taking his seat in Court was sig-
nalize,: by an opinion on the operation of the bankruptcy
system, his representation of which he (the Lord Chancel-
lor) scarcely flattered himself he could persuade their
Lordships to be true, unless he quoted the actual words
made use of on that occasion.—" The Lord Chancellor
took the first opportunity to express his strong feeling of
indignation at the frauds committed under cover of the
bankruptcy laws, and to declare his determination to do
all in his power to repress them. His Lordship added,
with considerable warmth, that the abuse of the bank-
ruptcy law was a disgrace to the country, and that it
would be better at once to repeal all the existing statutes
on the subject, than to go on as at present."

The El-r 1 of ELDON—Then come to Parliament.

The LORD CHANCELLOR—Yes ; I agree with
my Noble and Learned Friend, and think it safer to come
to Parliament and ask it to decide on the subject, than,
sitting as Judge in a Court without appeal, to pronounce
my own opinion.—(Hear, and laughter.) Surely ;Ali.
latter would be a far more questionable course than coming
as I do, with all humility, to ask your Lordships to amend
a law which admits of so many abuses. Their Lord
ships recollected what had been said about security of pro-
perty, and the general advantage and good of all per-
sons under the existing system. Let them see how that
system worked, according to his Noble and Learned
Friend, who went on to say—" There is no mercy
shown to the estate; nothing is less thought of than
the objects of the Commission. Commissions, as they
are frequently conducted in the country, are little
more than so much stock-in-trade for the assignees,
the solicitors, and (whom did their Lordships think?) the
Commissioners."—(Hear, and a laugh.) Here, then,
according to his Noble and Learned Friend, was a most
unuoly alliance amongst the very parties whom he now
commended—an alliance formed for the flagitious purpose
of pillaging the bankrupt's estate. His Noble Friend
proceeded to state, that, " instead of solicitors attending
to their duty in a proper manner, as ministers of the
court in commissions of bankruptcy, commissions were
treated as matters of private and personal interest—in fact,
as so much stock in trade." He added, that " unless a
tight band were held upon commissions, they would be-
come as great a nuisance as any in the land."—(Hear,
hear, hear.) Such were his Noble Friend's sentiment,
in 1801. He did not mean to say that things were me
now greatly better than they were at that period; pro-
bably they were, but every one must be well aware that
though there might not exist at present grounds fur the
same bulk of vituperation as his Noble Friend had given
utterance to some thirty years ago, nevertheless that thirty
and odd years had not so purified the system as to exclude
all cause of blame. The Lord Chancellor proceeded to
show that he bad proceeded with great caution in relation
to the present subject, and recounted the various steps
that had been taken since the question was first opened by
himself in the Commons about three years ago. He
brought the Bill forward in their Lordships' House in De-
cember, 1830, and renewed it in the ensuing Session,
when it was referred to the common law commissioners,
who having reported in its favour, it was ❑ote once more
brought before the House. How any malt could think
that he had proceeded too precipitately he could not ima-
gine : if (according to a phrase now very much in fashion)
lie had been guilty of adopting a vacillating line of con
duct, or of evincing infirmity of purpose (another fa-
vourite charge against the Governme•nt), he might have
experienced more difficulty in defending himself. With
respect to the new bankruptcy system, he had no hesita-
tion in stating that the general consent of the mercantile
classes proved its success in the metropolis, and be looked
forward to the establishment of local courts as affordinp,
an opportunity to extend it to the provinces.
The Earl of ELDON admitted having complained of

the working of the bankruptcy system in 1801, but he
endeavoured to repress the evil in his judicial capacity,
and did not come to Parliament for assistance.

The House divided—
Content
Not.content
Majority for the Committee
The House then went into Committee.
Upon the tipit clause being proposed,

Lord WYNFORD objected to the increased patronage
end influence which the Bill would conf r upon Govern-
ment. He should move by way of amendment to omit the
words " for any one, or more, county or countie., riding
or ridings," and insert in their place " for the counties of
Lancaster and Kent." He named those two counties in
order to see the working of the system in a manufacturing
and agricultural district.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the amendment
of his Noble and Learned Friend would have an effect the
very reverse of that which he proposed. As to the allega-
tMn that this Bill would increase the patronage of the
Crown, he at once admitted the fact, and he regretted it;
but he did not see how it could be avoided. He once
thought th it he saw a way of disposing of the patronage
without vesting it in the Crown, it having been suggested
that it would be a good way to vest it in the Lords-Lieu-
tenant of counties, but, on consideration, it was thought
that this would be a very bad way of disposing of it. It
was next suggested that it would be well to vest the ap-
pointments in the sheriffs of counties ; but this also was
abandoned as not being likely to lead to any satisfactory
result. The judges were next mentioned as proper tlepo
sitaries of this patronage, but he thought that those
were still more obj"ctionable as dispensers of patronage
than either of the others, for, in his opinion, those learn-
ed personages could not be kept too free from any con
tact with matters of patronage ; and, indeed, he regretted
that even that of the appointment of the revising barristef s
bad been vested in them. On looking at every mode
of disposing of this patronage that had been suggested,
he thought. that the least objectionable would be that of
vesting it in the responsible advisers of the Crown, acting
s thy would in the lace of the public.—(Hear.) It
was well kreit,n,' that when lie first introduced this
measure in the House of Corninon.,, he had proposed
that the patronage should he vested in the Crown.
and that, it would be remembered, was at a time when he,
or any of those political friends with whom he acted,
could have had no idea that they would be the dispensers
of that patronage. He would now say a word as to the
salaries to be gisron to die judges to be appointed uncle!
the Bill, and he must obset vr, that if P triiament should
give only small salaries the Bill would tail.—(Hear, hear.)
The wisest plan would be to make it well worth th
while of men of talents and ability to accept the appoint-

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the question
was not qui'e regular, considering that the amount of
salary was to be decided in another place; hut he had no
objection to state to his Noble and Learned Friend his own
individual opinion of what those salaries ought to be, and
it was, that it ought not to be less than 1,5001. a-year for
each judge ; hut, in saying this, lit was to b- subject to
'uture discussion. He thought that the salary ought not
to be less than the amount he had said at the least.
Lord LYNDHURST read the clause in the Bill, which
mtated that the salary should not be less than 1,500/. a-year,
with such additions from the amount of fees as his Majesty
might direct, so that the whole income of any such judge
should not exceed 2,000/. a•year. He would not offer any
'urther objection; he felt that it was disheartening and of
no use to enter into objections against the details of a mea-
-ure in which it appeared (as we understood the Noble and
Learned Lord) that so few of their Lordships took any
interest.

The Earl of WICKLOW said that the system of the assio-
rant barristers who presided in the Civil Bill Court, in Ire-
!arid, had given great satisfaction, and in one respect psrti-
eulai ly—that the barristers were not resident in the county.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the system of
assistant b irristera in Ireland was so different from that
which was proposed under this Bill, that it would he im-
possible to assitnilate them. One objection to the attempt
Mould be, that if the same system were adopted unde'r
,leis Bill as in the system of assistant barristers in Ireland,
they must necessarily get a very inferior set of merest the
judges, because necessarily they must have men at much
lower salaries. One great advantage of the proposed plan
in this Bill would be, that the small local jurisdictions,
the courts of request, and other small debt courts, which
in general at present did not administer justice either for
the advantage of the debtor or creditor, or of the com-
munity at large, would gradually merge in the jurisdic-
tion of the new courts. In this respect he thought there
would be a great advantage in having a resident judge.
Lord WYNFORD was still of opinion that the advan-
tage would be gr••ater if there was not a resident judge.
Lord CLONCURRY suggested that it would be as ad-
vantage if the assistant barristers in Ireland were selected
from a higher class of the profession.

The Earl of WICKLOW wished to know whether the
Noble Baron desired to assimilate the practice in Ireland
to that which would take place under this Bill ?
Lord CLONCURRY did not wish to do so as to resi.
dence, but he wished to see men of higher standing at the
bar selected for those appointments, and that they should
get a higher salary, so as to prevent them from the ne-
cessity of practising at the bar.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that a frequent
change of counties would be inconvenient, and often op.
pressive to the individuals appointed under the Bill. What-
ever disadvantage there might appear in a constant resi-
dence of a judge in the county would, he was sure, be
counteracted by the high character of the men who should
be selected for such appointments.
Lord LYNDHURST would mention one instance of a
Learned Judge, who in integrity and intelligence was not
surpassed by any individual on the bench, yet that nio,t
Learned Person had given great dissatisfaction by con-
.tantly choosing one circuit (the northern) for a great
lumber of years : and if such as objection was raised in
his case, it would, of coarse, be still stronger in the case of
one of a judge of inferior standing and acquirements.
The amendment was then negatived, sad the clause
agreed to.

Tie 2d and 3d clauses were then agreed to.
On the 4th clause being read,
Lord LYNDHURST could not understand from the
Bill what wis to be the extent of the jurtyliction of these
c"urts--whether it was to extend to one, or two, or three
counties.

The LOPD CHANCELLOR said that the' arrange-
ment of this part of the measure must be l,ft to the exe-
outive. These was a great difficulty in defining the ex-
tent of the boundaries, as was found in the case of the
Reform Bill. The extent of the jurisdiction of a court
would depend on the circumstances of the district in which
it was to act. Now, for instance, in the West Riding of
the county of York there would be one court at Leeds,
vhich would take in that town and a district tt, the eas:
of it, and another court in a different part of the riding
for the renisinint parts of it.

Lord WYNF01:11), in alluding to the travelling expenses
to be allowed to the judges in these courts, suggested that
503/. would not be sufficient.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thonght that 500/.
a year would be more than sufficient to defray their tra-
velling expenses.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that 5001. a-year
would be a large allowance for travelling expenses unless
These judges were going to travel with a coach and eight.
_._

For his own part,hs was content to travel post, and if
these judges would only be content to travel in the same
style, they might travel 5,000 miles in the year for 500/.
—(A laugh, and a cry of •` No.") He said yes; any man

travel 100 mile• for 101., and if he knew anything

of the cornrows rules of arithmetic, he might travel 5,000
for 500/. But that was immaterial, as these judges in all
probability would not travel more than 20 miles at any one
time from their own homes. The Commissioners of the
Insolvent Court had to travel three circuits in the year,
and yet their salaries were only 1,500/. a year, sad their
travelling expenses.
Lord LYNDHURST suggested that three er four
judges, travelling circuits three times a year, like the Com-
missioners of the Insolvent Court, would he a much more
useful machinery ,han the 25 commissioners to be appointed
under this Bill. Th it was the system which he would
oppose to the system of his Noble apd Ls4rned Friend, and
tor this reason, that it would not detach these courts an
entirely from We.tininster-hall.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that there was no-

thing which you might not prove, provided you were
°ermined to assume the whole matter in debste. With
di respect to the Commissioners of the Insolvent Court,
4gaimt whom he did not mean to say a word, and whom
he readily admitted to be most excellent men in their
profession, be did not think that three or four Judges, even
with abilities equal to theirs, would be able to perform
the labours which it would be the duty of these twenty-
five Commissioners to go through. Besides, these three
or four Judges would be a sort of perambulatory court ;
whereas the object of this measure was to have a court
upon the spot always open.
Lord LYNDHURST repeated that the object which he
had chiefly in view was not to detach these courts entirely
from Westminster-hall. Talk of assumption, indeed
why, the whole basis of this Bill rested on assutnptieu.
The LORD CHANCELLOR--No such thing ; it
rests on evidence.—( Hear, hear.)
The fifth clause was then agreed to.
On the sixth clause, which proposes that " the judges
ind registrars shall not be removeable except by address of
the two Houses of Parliament,"

Lord WYNFORD rose to snake an objection to it.

It was rather too much to have the reeisirara of these
courts—who were merely ministerial officers—only re-
moveable by addresses from the two Houses of Parliament.
The LORD CHANCELLOR defended the clause. If
you give a man an office so long as he shall behave himself
therein, how are you to remove him from it if he behave
himself ill, except after convicting of such ill behaviour?
The registrar in the Court of Chancery, and the protho.
notaries in the courts of common law, held their offices
bring good behaviour ; and that proviso gave the two
Houses of Parliament the power of removing them by an
address to the Crown. He thought, at any rate, that his
Noble and Learned Friend would not objeet to placing the
iudges of these courts on the same footing as the Judges of
Westminster-hall. To place them on an inferior tooting
would be, pro Canto, to degrade them.
Lord WYNFORD agreed that these judges ought not to
be in any respect degraded ; but, with regar to registtars,
he would only observe that. clerks Of the peace were
quite as high as these registrars, arid they coul.i be remove
trorn their offices without an address, if they were convicted
of misconduct in the performance of their duties.
The LORD CHANCELLOR contendot

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ke sib t! 1,

:

).

•
; -gm* rt:tas ettiks.ouguk am in rarnament I for In
!. gut .s registrarAere pOyefeited by age or other Infirmity
fromperfierming.the dettetinf his office, and yet did not,
r !mu), raksiff -ill, Ire could not birenicived
t ! except hyatt addreeaTemniParliament tit the 'Crosine ' •
'tee Loud. LYNDHURST:—Why should the registraiefiefe
elii;COurt be placer:Chi a -different- situation from thatelif
the registrars thither Courts ? Noble and Learned
Friend had not given even 'a plausible answer to that
question, and he should, therefore, suggest to him to give
way upon this point, otherwise it would show the 'spirit
in which his Noble and Learned Friend was desirous of
discussing this Bill.—(Hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought the last remark
of his Noble and Learned Friend might as well have been
spared, as he had all through these discussions de-
clared himself anxious to adopt any real amendments
which might be suggested to him. He could assure his
Noble and Learned Friend that these registrars had
higher functions to perform than he seemed to be awar
of; for instance, in the bankruptcy business their names
e
must, in some cases, be inserted in the fiat directed to the
judges in ordinary. In other cases, where the chief judge
was absent, they would be empowered, for certain pro-
ceedings, to act as local judges. The registrar's name
along w
must, therefore, be inserted in the commission • h
that of the judge. If his Noble and Learned Friends
could point out to him any mode (save that given by this
clause) of removing a registrar rendered incompetent by
age or infirmity, before that registrar misdemeane him
-
s lf, he (the Lord Chancellor) would agree to strike -
out
the clause. He had known instances of office, ;r and
of judges too,—who, being too old for the r ee:formarce of
their duties, and yet not long enough at
their situations to • Ithem e to their e possession of
entitle
retiring p
could not be induced to resign until t' pensions,
strong hint that Parliament had ney received a pretty
the power to remove
them.—( Hear.)
Lord WYNFORD said see
"punu this point, that he re strong was his impression
the registrars" be struts' eould move that the words
Lord LYNDHURS' a out of the clause.
these registrars into said that if the Bill really turned
Friend had made to judges, the objection which his Noble
did not think that this clause fell to the ground ; but he
was a slight to b . the Bill went exactly that length. Why
by ixalting this e cast upon those very respectable officers,
were as his N new officer above their heads ?If the law
officers were, able and Learned Friend stated, that these
why not am not removeable without an address to the Crown,
The LO end the law in this respect altogether?--(Hear.)
weight
of RD CHANCELLOR really could not see the
these objections, nor did he think that his Noble
and Leer
ned Friend would have attached any importance
to
ticai , had he not come down to the House as the poli-
ineeee_Of ponent of the Law Reform Bills introduced by the
t Government. He should be sorry if the registrars
of the old Courts, whom be admitted to be most excellent
and e
aluable public functionaries, should feel it as a slight
h
Pun themselves to have the registrars of these new Courts
plea el above them. To prevent that feeling from being
gene rated in their minds, he would agree to leave the words
4 4 61
mr le registrars" out of this clause ; but he must insist on
rete ening "the judges."
• I
,ord WYNFORD had no objection to the words " the
jud pies" being retained in the clause.
Lord LYNDHURST defended himself with great
troth against the charge brought against him by the
_Jec rd Chancellor of being the political opponent of the law
e i forms of the present Government. He thought that
hr
I Noble and Learned Friend, in making that charge
• ;ainst him, had acted towards him both unjustly and un-
• ratefully. His Noble and Learned Friend would recoi-
-1 eet that when he (the Lord Chancellor) first showed him
(Lord Lyndliuret) the batch of Bills respecting law reform
. now on the table of that and the other House of Path,-
inent, he (Lord Lyndhurst) had told him (Lord
Brougham) that of those Bills there were some which he
highly appreciated. The Limitation of Actions Bill, fo,
• tanco, he highly approved ; and, as a proof of it, he had off, red
I its Noble and Learned Friend to conduct it through the
louse. On what grounds his Noble and Learned Friend
✓ epresented him as sitting on the opposition benches as the
elitical opponent of the law reform Bills of the pie sent
lovernment he could not for his life conceive. First of
be did not sit upon the opposition bench at all; and,
e next place, he Lad chosen his present seat in the
in U. e for the purpose of showing that in opposing this
Hous was standing by himself, and not acting as the
Bill In f a party.
agent o Duke of RICHMOND suggested that the Noble
The I taken the seat which he occupied in order that
Lord bat return with greater facility, when he pleased,
he might ches of opposition.
to the ben RD CHANCELLOR reminded his Noble and
The LO end that the five Bills, to which he had alluded
Learned Fr. •nment batch of Bills, were not, in point of
as the Govet rent Bills. They were brought into Parlia
fact, Govertai quence of the recommendation of the Com-
Neat In coose sinted to inquire into the state of the law
luissioners app eiperty. Having, however, been so intro-
affecting Teal P :Id undoubtedly have the best support of
eteeeest, they 'O linisters. In point of fact, this Bill was
"eels 'Majesty's' vent Bill now upon the table.
the only Govertx_ URST thought his Noble and Learned
Lord LYNilik n guilty of a great error. He did not
Friend had
last bet
4;e11 from„ the lips of his Noble and
often forget what
mar to this Rill, be recollected
el earned Friends and reb their- notice, his Noble and
well that, in it Aroducing it to . ;nttoduce it, not
Learened
Frleeid had distinctly sate, 1 • —.sting upon
•
s Gewernment measure, but as a eno „ ssure s.itioo.
,r a
oy india,ldual responsibility." In give og his opp '-st
ttherefore, tte this Bill, he was not actin '4* es the polite;
his Ma eat 's
opponent of the law reforms proposed b Y i
Ministers. Now, let their Lordships mark the different
-way in which the other Law Reform Bills ca me et present
before their Lordships. They arose out of thk recom men-
(lateen of a Commission appointed by the Crot vn to revise
the law respecting real property ; and when a G overninent
held that
Authorized Et commission to revise the law, he
through
Government to be bound to bring into and carry
Pailiam "'ri
,ent the Bills which the Commissioners re"en-
mended. In point of fact, the Government was
g
this at the present moment.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was happy to info. em
their Lordships, that if his Noble and Learned Friers
continued to act upon the principles which he had just laid
deal% he should put an end, by what he was about to say,
to his (Lord Lyndhurst's) opposition to this measure,
which wag- now, in the strictest sense of the word, a
Government measure.—(llear, hear.) His Noble and
Learned Friend had said that he (the Lord Chancellor) had
originally proposed it as his own individual measure. True,
be did so propose it in April, 1830,
in the House of Com-
mons, and again in December, 1830, in that House. On
that latter oecasion he had stated distinctly that it was his
own individual measure, brought in on his own responsi-
bility, and without any concert with any of his colleagues
in the Administration. !dark the difference now. Fut-
merly tie bad stated that he bad not t
mmuni
hadco c
municated it to them, and that it bad obtained their con-
currence.--(Hear, hear.) But their Lordships would
perhaps recollect that there was a wide difference between
Isis former Bill and his present. His former Bill Iva- much
more extensive, and he would freely confess that if he had
bad tobring in a Bill of his own, it would have gime much
further than this Bli! was intended to go. He had for-
merly proposed to give to these local courts a jurisdiction
over all suits where the cause of action did not exceed
1001 , and also to give a further right of ettlieei• So we
understood the Noble Lord, who was pot very eudible, to
say.) Alterations had been suggested upon these 1.1!
by the Common Law Commissioners, to whom his original
Bill bad been referred for consideration and revision. When
it was so altered as to meet not only with their support,
but also with the unanimous support of his colleagues in
the administration, he had brought it forward as a Go-
vernment measure. As such it was proposed last year—
' as such it had been known for the list four or live months,
and as nothing else.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that be
Lad now removed all the doubts of his Noble and Leeroed
Friend as to the Bill being a Government measure, and
having removed them, be trueted that, as neither his
Noble and Learned Friend nor any ;of the Noble Lords by
whom he was surrounded could be influenced by any party
feelings against the Government, he should have et.eir sup-
port. He was certain of having his Noble and Lear,rked
Friend's support to this, wh ch was, strictly speaking a
Government measure.—(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of CUMBERLAND rose to address a few
words to their Lordships, but, we are sorry to say, that in
consequence of the very low tone in which his Iloycl Iligb-
nese spoke, he was scarcely heard in the gallery. We ,un-
derstood him to say that he did not mean to deny that he
was an opponent of the present Government, but he should
be dammed of himself, and he felt that be should be de.
grading hischaracetr, if he could allow party spirit to di-
rect his vote on a measure of great general Hod invional
importance. He proteetA against this measure n-ia.e dis-
cussed as a party measure.
Lord LYNDHURST assured tlie House that if
his Noble and Learned Friend could only zatisly him
that this was a proper measure, it ehoule bevy
his support without any regard to the quarter
from whence it emanated; but it certainly. would
not have his support otherwise. He assure 1 their
Lordships that neither lie nor any of his friends haft treated
this Bill is a party measure. It was true that at a meeting
held previously to the second reading of it 'hey I ad ee-
termined not to divide rpinst ti,e principle i and to
that deteiminatien they had come upon this prior ; 1,, alit