The Sun.
London, England, 1833-01-29 00:00:00

had been struggling, almost to rebellion—almost to revolu-
tion, to get rid of the Tory faction. The House of
Commons was about, as the first step to the extinc-
tion of Toryism, to place in its Chair a T,,ry ; Con-
servatives were about to swell the Ministerial majority,
which was to rejoice the Jews of the Stock Exchange,
to-morrow, by cresting a rise of two or three per cent. in
the funds.—(A laugh.) With respect to the laugh that
proceeded from the Treasury Bench, upon the Hon. Mem-
ber for Middlesex alluding to the point of economy in this
question, it should be remembered that it was that very
Treasury Bench that proposed the grant of 4,000/. per
annum to the Right lion. Gentleman, with a reversion
of 3,0001. per annum on another life. This was a gross
abuse of the House over the public purse ; and ho trusted
the time was not far distant when they should inquire as
to the right of an unreformed House of Commons to
make large grants of money to its own Members.
But with re'pect to the saving of the pension, as the law
stood, the Right Hon. Gentleman would be entitled
both to the salary and pension. He did not doubt that
the Right Hon. Gentleman would give up Lis pension, if
elected, hut still he was entitled to it ; so that those who
second the Hon. Memher for Middlesex do not show any
want of economy. fie protested, therefore, against this
relapse into Toryism, carri-d by a Conservative
majority.—(Hear, bear, bear.) He would venture
to prophecy that this would not be the last time the
House would see such a combination to resist principle.
" Coming events cast their shadows before."

And, perhaps, th7re was solid foundation for the reports
that had gone abroad upon the subject of combinations;
and, perhaps, this was one of the first steps to be taken
in pursuance IS the determination of Noble Lords and
Gentlemen opposite to render this a final measure.
Lord EI3RINGTON regretted that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had made the reflections he bad upon the
connections of the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed, for
it could not affect his qualifications for the office.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then bore testimony to the
ability, fairness, and candour with which the Right Hon.
Gentleman proposed had presided in the Chair for sixteen
years.

Mr. TENNYSON said he had never felt himself in a
situation of greater embarrassment since he had had the
honour of a seat in this House. He would not support
the motion of the Hon. Member fur Middleex, because,
although be agreed it was desirable to have a Speaker en-
tertaining sentiments in accordance with those of the
people, yet those of the Right Hon. Member for Staf-
fordshire, he thought, were not entirely in accordance
with those of the majority of the people.—(A laugh.)
He wished to know how it happened that they had
not had the opportunity of choosing such a per-
son. He wished to know whether the Ministers of
the House had presumed, as was said in the rumours al-
luded to by the Honourable Member for Dublin (Mr.
O'Connell) to negotiate with any one as to who
should sit in the chair of that free House.—(Hear.) He
(lid not place faith in the rumours, for if he did he should
be obliged to withdraw from them that general support
which it was otherwise his intention to give them. He
hoped to have a disclaim•r of the truth of those
rumours from his Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman had his unbounded approba.
Lion, and he would vote for him, but he still regretted that
his Majesty's Ministers had thought it their duty not to
take another way of providing for him.
Lord ALTHORP said his Majesty's Government was
charged with using undue influence, but as far as lie was
concerned, he believed, no influence at all had been used.
He was ready to admit that when he found that the Right
Hon. Gentleman had been returned as a Member of Par.
!lament, and having had so much experience of his ad-
mirable conduct in the Chair, knowing, ss he did, that
that Right Hon. Gentleman was, as far as experience
went, better fitted than any other Member for the Speaker.
ship, he did at once make up his mind to support him.
Looking at the lion. Member for Staffordshire as
an untried man, he was free to say lie was perfectly qua-
lified to till the Chair with great benefit to the House,
and honour to himself; but it was impossible to put him,
in respect of fitness for the Speakership, in competi••
don with the Right Honourable Gentleman. On these
grounds, nothing could influence him to vote for him, in
opposition to a Gentleman of such experience. After the
Right Hon. Gentleman's return he had written to him,
askin; whether, in the event of his being elected to fill the
Chair, he would have any objection to take upon himself
the office, and telling him if so, he would have his vote,
and this was what was cued dictating to the House.—
He trusted that the measures which his Majesty's Govern-
ment intended to introduce, would meet with the con-
currence of the House. The Honourable Member for
Dublin had taunted him with having said that the
Reform Bill was a final measure. But he wanted to know
what was a final measure ? he bad always considered, and
in that he perfectly agreed with the Hon. Member for
Middlesex, that that Bill was a means to an end—(Loud
cries of Hear)—as a means by which other improvements
might be effected.—( Hear.) He had been entirely misre-
presented by the Hon. Member when he was said to have
called it a final measure, and that he was opposed to any of
the measures which would naturally spring from that Mil—
lie had said that the Bill so far as Reform in Parliament
Was concerned, he hoped would be final. lie would give
his vote to the Right Lion. Gentleman, entirely on the
ground of his fitness for the office. The only objection
to the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to be, that in politics
he was opposed to the present Government and the ma-
jority of the House, and the Hon. Member for Middlesex
had siid that this was the first occasion on which such an
anomaly had been seen. He would only instance the
list Parliment, when the same Right Hon. Gentleman
was under similar circumstances unanimously elected
to the Chair. At that time he was certainly as much op

posed to the then House of Commons as he was to the

present. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex, that this question was too great a one to be looked at
merely on the score of economy. it soared much
above that, but even on that point, the Honoura-
..

. .
ble Member was mistaken, for as he (Lord Althorp)
understood the law, whenever the Right Hon. Gentle-
man re•asceoded the Chair, the pension granted him
would he suspended. Some of the former speakers bad
argued as if the Hon. Gentleman had resigned the Chair,
and was no longer Speaker after the prorogation. Such
was not the fact. He continued Speaker up to the disso-
lution. However, at present he hoped the House would
come to a speedy and unanimous decision.
Mr. WARBURTON and Mr. COBBETT rose together.
The cries for Mr. Cobbett were very ❑utnerous, and the

former gentleman gave way.
Mr. COBBETT then said, the Hon. Members who
had preceded him on this question had wholly mistaken
the case. The real question was wholly thrown out of
their calculations. What he considered the real ques-

ton to he, was, not that they were to please
themselves in the choice they were about to make ;
hut, what would the people think of the person
whom they placed in the Chiir ? They were now
able to select one from among themselves. When they
had agreed upon him, and placed him in the Chair, they
said to the people that that was the best man amongst
them.—(A laugh.) Now if they placed a man in
the Chair who, for such a length of time, had
been feeding upon the people, what would be said
out of the House to such a choice ? Surely they would
have but a poor opinion of the Reformed House of Com-
mons, if it were to be said, that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man was the best man in it. He would come to the law
of the case as regarded the pension bye and bye. He
had no doubt that there were lawyers present, and that

there were merchants present, who were perfectly aware
that the business of the Renee could be carried on by one-
tenth of the clerks and clerks' assistants, and all the
other officers that tlle Speaker had to assist him, in
what was called his arduous duty. It had been a con-
stant cry, and was repeated that night, that the Right
Honourable Gentleman had done much. Allowing that
he had, had he not been well paid for it ?—(Hear,
hear.) Had he not been receiving much more than
the President of the United States ? And all that for the
sixteen years during which it was said he had worked so
much ? He would ask, had the Honourable Gentleman
any right to saddle the country with a greater salary to
the Speaker of the House, than was paid to the Head of
the whole United States? But the whole thing
was a nest of infamy. What with the Speaker, Chief
clerks, deputy clerks, sergeants, and other officers belong-
ing to the House, it cast more than the whole of the Civil

Gi;rernrnent of the United States, including the salaries of
the ten Ambassadors they sent to Europe. He then called
on the House to take into consideration what the people
had said for ma'.y years past, upon pensions. He knew
much of the petitions that had been sent to that House for
the List 25 years. There was the Right Hon. Bart the M.P.

for Westminster behind him, who had in that time pre-
sented hundreds of petitions, and be would defy him to
say that in any one calling for Parliamentary Reform, the
just reason assigned for it, was pensions granted for un-
merited services. It was easy for Hon. Gentlemen to

talk, for it was an ascertained fact, and by consulting
Cocker for only a few minutes, the case would be demon-

strated that the rich had taxed the poor, forty times more
than they had done themselves. Now were they to tell them
(the people) hat the man who had 4,0001. secured for his
own life and the same earn during the life of his son—that
man who had thus received upwards of 100,0001. of the

people's money, and who, in the Natural calculations of

hunta❑ life, might -receive hundreds of thousands more—
were they to tell the people, the overtaxed people, that
this was the only man in that House who was fit to pre-
side over its debates ? Were they to tell the people, who
were in a state of starvation, which must oe seen to he be-
lieved, that they were to expect no relief which would, in
effect, be done by placing such a man in that chair ?
. The Noble Lord hadientirely mistaken the meaning of the
Act of Parliament. It was a pension of 4.000/. a-year
for life to the late Speaker himself; and of 3,000/. a year
tc hie heir-male; there weuld repuire another Act of Par-
liament before it could be rescinded. How much hones,y,
moderation, and mercy towards the people was there in
!the matter ? But then theiNoble Lord thought it would
cease. No, it would not cease. What uas the actual
situation at the present moment in which they stood ?
Why, if the Right Hon. Gentleman was reelected, awl
heknew nothing of his qualifications, for he had never
seen him in his chair—(A laugh)—it could not be un-
done ; and immediately on his appointment he might t o
and sell his annuity for life.—(Rear.) Would ►thte House
be party to an imposition so flagrant towards the people?
Was this the way they were going to take the leaves out of
the accursed Red Book? Why it was the most effectual
way to introduce new leaves into it.—(Hear.) He
thought there was some weight in the observations of the
Hon. Member for Middlesex ; but he objected to the re-
election, on the ground that it was a declaration of war
against the people of this kingdom.
Mr. WARBURTON said the different qualifications of
the gentlemen proposed to fill the chair were undoubtedly
to be considered. if their merits were equal on both sides,
the House ought to give the preference to that gentleman
whose political opinions agreed most nearly with the ma-
jority. He did not think it an unimportant thing to say
of the person who was raised to that chair, this is the
man whom the peep'. deli ht to honour. He rose 4 nply
for the purpose of stating that the House had never on
former occasions granted a pension to a retiring Speaker
until the period when be had actually ceased to Jill tl e
chair, and should that Right Hon. Gentleman be raised
again to the chair, the least he expected was to hear
that either his Majesty's Government, or some Hon.
Member would mike the motion that the vote of the
House in granting the pension should be rescinded at the
earliest possible period in the present Session. So that
the House might still have a proper security in its own
bands, by not voting a pension till the final retirement.
The Noble Lord has said that ceteris paribus the House
ought to elect bins with whose political opinions it
most nearly coincided. Now, from the experience which
he had of the conduct, in that Chair, of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, he was quite willing to pay him that coo•
plimcnt which his merits deserved ; but, on an occasion
like the present, they were expected to unbosom them-
selves with perfect candonr, and he was determined to do
so. He would observe, that not only were mental, but
even physical qualifications neeess iry to be considered ;
and he stated with plainness, that many occasions
;cad arisen, when he observed the extreme il'ness of
the Right Hon Gentleman while fitting the Chair. He
entertained the strongest doubts whether his strength was
sufficient to go through those more than ordinarily ardu-
-01/9 duties now to be required, of the Speak, r of that
House; and, therefore, in nalancing the men's of the two
Hon. Gentleman, he considered that the Hon. Member

for Staffordshire, being more vigorous in health,
would be more competent to fulfil the duties of the
office. If, however, the Right Hon. Gentleman was re-
elected, it would be his duty to bring forward a motion
for rescinding the pension granted in the former Parlia-
ment to the Right Hon. Gentleman before his retirement
from office.

Mr. C. M. SUTTON then rose, but spoke in so low
a tone of voice that it was with great difficulty thathe was
heard in the gallery. He presented himself to the
Howe under considerable embarrassment on the present
occasion. It was, however, a great gratification to him
t hear even from Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and from all
who had spoken, the compliments (as we understood)
which had been bestowed upon him. It was his duly,
under all circumstances, to submit himself implicitly to
the opinion of the House. No one could feel more deeply,
he had almost said more painfully, the difficulties belong•
ing to the high sitvation of filling that Chair. But he
owed too much to their kindness to hesitate E'er one instant
to obey the commands of the House, in again undertaking
the trust if it was their pleasure to replace him in it.
—(Hear, hear.) Among the qualifications which be-
longed necessarily, or at least ought to belong necessarily
to the Speaker of that House, no one was more im-
portant, and he trusted he could appeal to the House that
he was not wanting in it, he meant strict im-
partiality. Indeed, he confessed that it was a diffi-
culty to his understanding to draw a line of dis-
tinction between honesty and strict impartiality, and
he hoped that he had succeeded in blending them
together, and that the majority of these with
whom he had the honour to act for six successive Parlia-
ments would do him that justice. Having said so much,
he would say, that if it should be the pleasure of
the House to elect his Hon. Friend the Member
for Staff,rdshire, whatever assistance his sixteen years
experience could afford would willingly be given him, and
every Alember of that House. If it should be the p'e sole
of the House to re-elect tim to the high bonour, he had
only to say, as he had done before, that he would exert
his best endeavours to discharge his duty to the House—
to the country—and they would permit him to say, as an
honest man, to himself.—(Hear, hear, and cries of
" Question," and " Clear the gallery.")
A MEMBER, on the representation of the people.
wished to know from Minirters whether Mr. M. Sutton,
if he was re-elected the Speaker of the House, would be
entitled to keep the pension of 4,000/. a-year vet al by the
last Parliament, during the period he filled the chair of the
House. He thought it would be more to the eredit of the
Government, the House, and the Right Hon. Gentleman,
and more satisfact ry to the people of England, that th
question should be answered before they went to the poll.
Mr. M. SUTTON stated his belief of the law to be
that it was impossible for any individual occupying the
chair of the House to be entitled to a siugle shilling of
pension.—(Hear, hear.) That was his firm belief
of law,the
determinationbut
teo c
elaacwpt
might
oneshilling
consider
of i
pen-
sion t wase
his firmsion as long as lie had the honour of filling the Chair of
that House.

Major BEAUCLERK thought the Speaker's salary
ought to be reduced, and was proceeding to address the
House on the subject, when he was reminded that the
House could not then entertain the subject.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there
appeared for

Mr. Littleton
Against Urn ...... 24.1

On our re-admission to the gallery, we found

Mr. COBBETT on his legs-protesring against the re-
election of Mr. Manners Sutton, observing, that if he was
' again chosen Speaker the House would decide its own
character with the people.
Mr. FAITHFUL had heard that since be came into
the House, which restrained him from given his sanction
to the appointment of the Right Honourable Gentleman,
Mr. Manners Sutton. He wished to know from Mi-
nisters whether, in the event of the late Speaker being
re-elevated to the Chair, it was their intention to intro-
duce a Bill for the purpose of repealing the Act that
passed last Session, giving the Right Hon. Gentleman a
pension of 4,000/. a year. If they would not pledge
themselves to do that, he should certainly oppose the re-
election of the late Speaker to the Chair.

SIR F. BURDETT thought that the Hon. Member
for Brighton had put forward one of the most extraordi-
nary points he had ever heard—(Cheers)--nothing more
nor less than asking them to pledge themselves to brine
in a Bill in order to :repeal the Act by which the
late Speaker was given a pension of 4,000/. a-year,
if he again took the chair. Ministers had given their
opinions upon that Act, and the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had done the same; and those opinions, he (Sir F.
B.), should have thought would have been satisfactory
to the most unreasonable man. The public would save
not a farthing of that pension, unless the Right Honour-
able Gentleman was re-elected to the chain—Wear,
hear.) If economy wes of the slightest benefit in the
world, all the arguments which had been used would have
a contrary effect to that given them by the Hon. Member.
He disliked such a 21-d. principle of economy. No
Parliament, he would venture to say, would repeal
the Act giving Mr. Manners Sutton a pension of
4,000/. a year. It had been hardly named, for
no man could say that sixteen years' service slid
as the Right Hon. Gentleman had performed, was no
worth such a remuneration. (Cheers.)
Mr. WARBURTON said that one great objection
with him was, that they were setting a precedent of
electing a man as Speaker who had already been
appointed to a pension
.for past services. What
was to prevent a Minister in some future Parliament
proposing to grant a pension to a Speaker before be
finally withdrew from the speakership ? A discussion
then followed between Mr. O'Connell, the Soiicitor-
General, (Sir John Campbell) the Attorney-Ge-
neral, and Mr. Hume as to whether the Speaker
was entitled by law, or bad, in fart, received his
pension, which was at length put an end to by
the Solicitor-General reading from the 2d and
3d of William IV., cap. 05, Which regulated the