The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-19 00:00:00

IRELAND.

On the bringing up by Mr. I3ERNAL of the report of
the Committee of Supply for granting three millions,
Mr. O'CONNELL rose and began to speak in a tune
of so much salemnity that only fragments of his few first
sentences were audible. He talked of his long afflicted
and oppressed country and of the terms " brutal and san-
guinary," which be had applied to the speech trom the
throne on the first day of the session. The address, how-
ever, had received the sanction of the House, and he should
therefore sly nothing of it now. His present object was
not to characterise by any at'empt at strength of language
the proceedings about to be adopted in Ireland; the sub-
ject would be degraded and the cause injured if be de-
scended to personalities ; and in adverting to the projected
measure, he wished to be discovered to be an Irishman
only by the infallible test of accent. He would fain speak
only as a lover of freedom and of the Constitution—as an
Englishman or a Scotchman would speak upon a topic in-
teresting to all hearts. He was desirous of characterising
that measure as if it were proposed at once to outlaw the
Scottish nation—to abolish her rights, and to place her
liberties_ at the mercy of officers of two years standing.--
(Cheers.) Tranquillity of temper was a proof of deter-
mination, and this he must say, that were he an English-
man, and such a measure brought forward applicable to
England, lie should think death preferable.—(Cheers.)
Though " the blond would follow where the knife was
driven," the " iron had not yet entered the soul ;" and
detesting slavery as if he were an Englishman, he could
not but be deeply sensible of the folly, the maduss, the
wickedness of those who would now crown all the mis-
chiefs and miseries of Ireland by the extinction of the last
spark of her liberty.—(Cheers.) Before he went farther,
he perhaps had a right to say a trw words in self vindication.
It had been insinuated by one Right Hon. Gentleman, and
broadly asserted by another, that he had instigated large
tithe meetings, and had then shrunk from attending them :
the statement had been repeated, and on its repetition,
cheered. Never was an assertion so totally destitute
of fact; for the great tithe meetings took place when be
(Mr. O'Connell) was absent from Ireland : if he had
been in Ireland, perhaps they would not have taken
place ; but he would undertake to prove, if the House
would give him the opportunity, that the tithe meetings
originated with an intimate friend of, and a man who had
received much favour from, Lord Anglesea.—(Cheera.)
As for shrinking from attending, he never hivi had the
choice, for he was 300 miles distant from all the tithe
meetings. The moment the circular letter was issued
prohibiting those tithe meetings, they ceased, and he was
in this country. He only appealed, therefore, to the
humanity of gentlemen who had been in the habit of
hearing him calumniated. But (continued the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman) I pass that by—l have said
enough upon the subject. The measures against Ireland,
to which I have alluded, are said to be justified on grounds
which are not at present legitimately before use(Cheers)

—but it 1 am to believe public report, the drivelling of
ate, and the dotage of old feminine characters would be
insulted, if it could be supposed that they would receive,
as reasons for such a measure, the grounds that have been
stated. In this House it has been said, that the present
Ministers are entitled to such confidence that you might
at once put at their disposal the liberties of Ireland—that
they have heaped such benefits on Ireland, that they have
deserved the entire control of her destinies. Now, I
wish, first, that their claim to this despotism should be a
little investigated. Let us see what they have done to
pacify Ireland, before they seek to enrage her. They
have introduced two measures ; the first is Church Re-
form—that is the immediate boon to Ireland ; hut beyond
one single advantage, it gives no present relief—it gives
nothing beyond the church cess. It is purely prospec-
tive ; it holds out a promise for future days, but it does
nut diminish the present amount of evil. Let us consider,
ti:en, the extent of the boon ; and let me observe, that I
met the proposition of Government cheerily and heartily,
and I do not now mean to retract any part of my appro-
bation. A benefit to Ireland comes with double relish
from its novelty.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord calculated
the advantage at 60,0001. or 70,0001 a-veer. I think
he under calculated it, and teat I could dernonstrite, it
need were, that it will be 80,000/., or at least 70.000/.
a.year. Yet the Noble Lord stated the entire sum then
saved at 70,000/. . _ _ . •

L rd ALTHORP said across the table, that he had
stated it at 80,0001. _ .

Mr. (.` CONNELL—Whether 70,0001. or 80,0001., it
do, s not make much difference. Does the Noble Lord
mean that the Church cess is equal to one-tenth of the
whole revenues of the Church ? Take the Church cess
and the entire enormous revenues of the Church in acres,
rent, and tithes, and will anybody say that one is equal to
one-tenth of the other ? But I only throw this out that
the Noble Lord may not allow himself to be deluded. Be-
yond that what does this Bill do? It does not lessen the
weight of a single burden : it gives no relief: it does not
suspend the tithe huntfor one moment: pigs will still be re•
morselessfy chased, and corn and hay wilt be seized as ruth-
lessly as before. Nor does the Bill contemplate any pro-
spective reduction ; but I see that it must infallibly fellow,
and therefore I thank him. The measure admits the
principle and the fact that the Church establishment in
Ireland is greater than is ereled for by the necessities of the
country—that it is quite as great as the Protestants of
Ireland require. It cashiers ten out of twenty-two
Bishops as of no use, and I do not think that a Reformed
Parliament is likely again to admit the practice, that
those who are of no service shall he paid just as it they
were. The Bishop of Waterford, for instance, is to be
soniethine like a dummy at whist—(Laughter)—there are
to ',ley the game, while he is to do nothing, and it
is cut of the question to suppose that the 'Hense, as
at present constituted, will allow ten of these practical
dummies to exist in Ireland.—(Cheers and laughter.)
I find in the measure, therefore, the seeds of much
future good, and 1 frail it accordingly. There is also
another advantage in it—it recognises the principle of
establishing the property in the hands of Parliamen-
tary C ennaissioners. That is the principle, and, guard
it as you will, it is admitted. For these reasons I rejoice.
I utter here, and I wish it to be understood elsewhere, that
I consoler the measure fraught with more benefits to Ireland
than in the first instance may be supposed. But if prospective
benefits may arise from the measure, let me ask, does it
afford arty present relief to the distresses of Ireland?—
(Cheers.) Will the wretched peasant have one potatoe
more to eat, or will a day's more employment be given
to the starving labourers of the present generation ?
( Hear.) Is there anything to mitigate existing suffering,
or to conciliate towards a Government the affections of a
populatioe driven to extremities by your own misconduct?
I entreat the Noble Lord tit look at the present turbulent
stir e or Ireland. I will not enter into the measure of Cm-
pirate Reform in Ireland, though I am quite ready to give
Ministers trill credit for intended benefits. No man shall
find me stinky in my praise of anything I believe will pro-
mote my country's good. When the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Stanley) the other night spoke of his affection
for Ireland, who cheered him more warmly than I did ?
(Hear.) Expressions of kindness even are music to my
ear—(Cheers)—and I do him the justice to say that he
threw upon his colleagues in office a full participation in
all the measures of harshness of which we have been com-
plaining. lie fully vindicated himself from any individual
severity, and I will not, in future, forget the courtesy that
I owe him as a gentleman, or the justice that is eue to
him as a statesman.—(Cheers from all sides.) If, here-
after, in the warmth of debate, I chance to mix personality
with argument, I will remember that the acts of the
Right lion. Gentleman are the acts of the Government.
I may he laughed at now, when I say that I hoped to see
the day when the bead of the Government would answer
fir his conduct to the insulted Commons of the United
Empire : it is to be smiled at now, but I hoped that
this attempt to annihilate every spark of political and
private liberty will meet with exemplary retribu-
tion. My object in rising at this time is really
rather to elicit sentiments from others than to in-
dulge in any expressions of my own. I have been
reproached with an indisposition to concur with Minis-
ters in any coercive measures towards Ireland—in this
House, and out of it, I have been charged with too great
acrimeony and violence. Instead of receiving that charge
in a hostile spirit, I accept it with pleasure as a testim my
for myself, and as a favourable omen for my country.
Let me observe to those who voted for the address to the
King, that they are not pledged to any coercive measures,
they have not yet s rid that three Sub-Lieutenants shall
have the power not only to deprive men of their liberties,
but to dismiss them to the felons' gang ; they are not yet
pledged to drum-bead courtsmartial. Not only those who
opposed the address, but every British gentleman, is free
to vote as he pleeses upon these coercive measures; a
spirit of loyalty, respectable even where it is mistaken,
might concur in the address, although it would, perhaps,
be as far as I am from consenting to this enactment.—
(Cheers.) What I wish is, to give Ministers, this night;
an opportunity of halting in their !lurch of violence. In-
deed, so far from its being understood that anything .like
the measures now proposed were contemplated, the House
cannot have forgotten that the speech of the Under-
Secretary for the Treasury (Mr. S. Rice), not many
nights ago, led us to expect the very reverse. He proved,
if we are to believe vulgar arithmetic (the species of
figures of which he is master), that Ireland is most pros.
perous ; that her trade and manufactures are highly
flourishing; but, " Oh, lame and impotent conclusion,"
he was forced to admit that the people were suffering, not-
withstanding, the most aggravated distress.—(Cheers.)
The Hon. Gentleman taunted me with lauding the pro-
ceedings of Ministers at former periods, and he read a
passage from a speech of mine delivered last year ; but he
might as well say, that because I admired the manhood of
forty, I was on that account to praise the dotage of eighty.
I lauded the Reform Bill of last year; but am I, on that
account, to laud the Coercion Bill of this year?—(Hear,
hear.) Nay, more, the House will recollect that the
Hon. Gentleman actually took upon himself, with an air
of some haughtiness, to reproach me, and asked, " How
can the Member for Dublin venture to charge on the
present Ministry that they mean to abolish the trial by
jury, and to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act ?"--(Cheers.)
Corning from one who, though not a leader, is in the
ranks of Government— mom one who at least sits with
the Ministers, and perhaps sometimes communicates with
them—l took in earnest his assertion, that they had no
such intention ; and I ask, was it fair, was it just, to allow
the House to be deceived upon such a suejeet ? Was
there nobody to check him in his hold career of assertion
—nobody to pull him back—nobody even to hint to him
that he was injuring his friends, while he was committing
himself ?—(EI ar, hear.) Yet, forsooth, he took upon
himsslt to taunt me as a calumniator, while, as au It Mt-
man himself; he was denying that the measures appre-
hended were to be introduced. It is true, I did assail the
tVhigs for th it conduct towards Ireland ; and 1 was ac-
cused of raking up the forgotten stories of former days.
But, if I find the proceedings now contemplated, not only
equal in enormity, but worse in guilt—more unrelenting
and ferocious—more unfounded as to facts—more steeped
in glaring falsehoods—while I respectfully apologise to
those gentlemen who, though sincere lovers of liberty, still
respect the Whig name—am I not entitled to ask, whether
I do calumniate, and whether I am not justified in com-
paring the crimes of the present day with the misdeeds of
a forint'. ? Let me tell English Members, that the
most grievous inflictions upon Ireland have been owing to
the Whigs—that the Whigs were guilty of the grossest
violation of solemn engagemerits, auk) that the black spot of
the treaty of Limerick yet remains an unwashed and inde-
lible stain.—(Cheers.) That treaty was made with a brave,
a loyal, and a powerful army—so true to its plighted
word, that, though a formidable French force entered the
Shannon, and intervened between the formation of the
treaty and its signature, the foreign aid was dismissed, the
engagement was signed, and the barrier surrendered. How,
let me ask, did the Whigs recompense this good faith ?
When, in consequence of the victories of Marlborough—the
Waterloos of that day—the Whigs were not merely strong,
hut rampant in power, they violated that tre rty.
But coming down to a later period, let me ask who, in
1807, framed and fabricated the detestable Insurrection
Act, which the police of the successors of the Whigs in
office carried into execntion ? A measure so fraught with
iniquity, ths,t I do not believe the Englishman breathes
who would accept the chance of preserving social order by
I such an Act..—(Cheere.) Now whot do the Whigs

again ? They threaten us not with nne Act, but with the
accumulation and concentration of every oppressive statute
ever inflicted upon Leland—the Curfew—the Insurrec-
tion Act—the suspensio❑ of the Habeas Corpus—unß
'tilted power of imprisonment, and consequent torture—
the abolition of the trial by Jury—the absence of all legal
responsibility—and the total suppression of the right of
petition. When what is threatened is made law, what
man shall dare even to petition Parliament ? Nay, if it suit
the fantasy of that most excellent Protestant, the Secretary
for Ireland, he may deem a prayer-meeting dangerous to
the peace of Ireland, and accordingly suppress Hear.)
Never yet was such a measure as that for changing the
venue—

Mr. WYNN rose to order, submitting to the Speaker,
whether it was within the rules of debate that any Hon.
Member should discuss measures not yet before the House,
and which were in progress in another place.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I have been given to understand
that the King's Ministers have certain measures to propose ;
and before agreeing to any supply, I am anxious to ascer-
tain the nature of those measures.

The SPEAKER—That which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who spoke last hut one has stated upon the subject
of order is perfectly correct, and completely in accordance
with the, rules and practice of this House. The effect of
that statement will, I trust, be to prevent the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman being off his guard in any further oh.
Nervation or inquiry he may address to the advisers of the
Crown.

Mr. O'CONNELL—The exceedingly courteous manner
in which the opinion of the Chair is always announced in
this House would, of itself, make me most anxious to
avoid any topic that could in the slightest degree render it
necessary fur you, Sir, to advert to any course which I
might be pursuing in any other terms than those of con-
currence and approbation ; but I really think that I shall
not have any difficulty in reconciling the observations and
inquiries which I have made and those which I intend to
make, with the ru!ea and practice of this House. I rise
to put some questions to the Members of his Majesty's
Government respecting a measure which I understand
they have in contemplation, and which measure they will
not be able to carry into effect if the present vote of supply
be refused. The Finance Minister of the Crown comes
forward to demand a vote of 3,000,0001., and thereupon
I ri e to speak to his general and particular policy ; 1 am
sorry ;hat one Member of that Government happens now
to be absent—l mean the Member for the prosperous town
of Leeds—for I might in that case have had an opportu-
nity of meeting with some effect the taunt which I suffered
at his hands the other night, on the subject of a repeal of
the Union. I understand that it is the intention of the
Government to submit to this Muse a measure for chane
ing the venue in Ire! ind. Now, when the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman asked which was the mode best
calcmated to peomote the ends of justice, and to secure
to a man the ben, fits of a fair trial—which would he better
fir him, to be tried by a jury of prejudiced persons, or
by twelve honest enlightened Englishmen ;—when he
asked that question, and in effect answered it for
himself—l should have liked to inquire of him
whether a native of the south would stand any chance of
justice at all if tried by a jury of Orangemen in the
Nuteli ? That in fact was his argument; but I do
not adopt the calumnies against the Orangemen of the
North. But 1 take the lion. and and Learned Gentle-
man at his word, and if he looks upon a prejudiced Orange
ttibunal as most dangerous to justice, what does lie sly to
changing the venue? I tell that Hun. and Learned Gen-
tleman, and I tell his Majesty's Government, that the
rebellion in Massachusetts, or rather, 1 should say, the
revolution there, hail its origin in a much slighter cause
than that which now aggrieves the Irish people. I call it
a revolution, and even had it not been successful, I should
not have termed it a rebellion ; it is not every struggle
th it deserves to liecalled a rebellion ; if the right of the sub.
ferine parties be clear,if the oppression practised upon them
be more than human nature can endure, who wilt call their
just resistance a rebellion? What drew down the revolu•
tionary war which separated America from England—what
but the refusal to accord to the Americans any other than a
trial by Englishmen? Something infinitely worse, however,
is intended for the Irish than even the transmission of the
Catholics of the South to be tried by the prejudiced
Orangemen of the North. If such a course of
policy be attempted, I hope most confidently that
it will be instantly and signally defeated. I do
hope and expect that it will be at once repudiated
by the high-minded Reformers of tngland. I ask, will
such a policy be sanctioned by this House, composed as it
now is, of a great body of enlightened Reformers ? I
ask you, the Reformers of England, will you say that tke
trial by jury is to become a dead letter, and that the writ
of Habeas Corpus is to cease ; that the single declaration of
one man is sufficient for the imprisonment of the Irish
people ; that we, the Irish, are to hold our liberties at the
will and pleasure of the Lot d Lieutenant, anti that his
single dictum is sufficient to put a whole district out of
the pale of the htv ? The Hon. Member for Olaharn,
with the straightforward good sense which marks every
thing that falls from him, declines to call this measure a
suspension of the Habeas Corpus ; he prefers using terms
which have nothing of art in them; and he tells us
plainly, that which every man must understand, and which
correctly describes the literal fact, namely, that this is
neither inure nor less than a power of indefinite impri,on-
ment—an absolute power of imprisonment; and even
when you do bring the Irish to trial, by what sort of
tribunal is their guilt or innocence to be ascertained ?
Forsooth, by five military officers, who have been two
years in the service, and have attained the age of 21.
Mr. SHEIL—A majority of the five will be sufficient
to find an Irishman guilty.
Mr. STANLEY—We find one Hon. anti Learned
Gentleman correcting another, in order that he might he
most minute and correct as to the details of the measure
submitted to the consideration of the other House ; it is
therefore a farce and an absurdity to say that the Hon.
and Learned Meinber for Dublin is avoiding the details of
the measure now before the other House; but he goes on
and perseveres in the discussion of those details, knowing,
at the same time, that his Majesty's Government cannot
join issue with him upon any one of these details.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Right Hon. Gentleman says
that he and his colleagues cannot answer me, and by way
of establishing that position, he treats me to an instal-
ment of a reply. I confess I am utterly unable to corn.
prebend what there is to prevent the Right Hon. Gentle-
man from following me through the whole course of the
observations which I have been making. I attribute to
his Majesty's Ministers certain designs, and I tell them
that I will vote against going into a Committee of Supply
until I have expressed my opinions and feelings as to what
those designs are said to be, and until I have ascertained
precisely their scope and tendency.—(Cries of " Hear,"
and " Order.") Oh ! give us some fair play. V/h it,
will you not only oppress the unfortunate Irish themselves, -
hut silence their chosen though talentleas advocate? Ain
I thus to he put down, and replied to by instalments?
The SPEAKER—I had hoped I succeeded in making
myself understood. I took the liberty of saying that no-
thing ceuld he more inconsistent with order, or more in-
convenient in practice, than the discussion of measures
pending before the other House of Parliament; and I said
this, the rather, because, at the moment, the Hon. and
Lea!ned Gentleman, the Member for Dublin, was, if not
discussing, at least touching very closely upon subjects
actually under the consideration of the House of Lords;
since then he has gone much further, and entered into a
discussion of the merits of an intended tribunal, and argu-
ing with respect to the numbers, ages, and other qualiti-
catiens of the Judges of whom that tribunal was to be
composed.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I am desirous of not transgressing
order ; and I really teitik, if what I have said, and what
I intend to say, be viewed in its true light, no Hon. Mem-
ber will say that it is out of order ; and I am sure it is be•
cause I have not succeeded in making the form in which I
pursue the object I aim at apparent, that I am thus sup-
posed to be out of order. I do attribute certain designs
—not to the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland—because
uthtoorfoviceewrt;ain
willbut I d'
tforributintosakteh'ewNe pLuot hire out
Lord
him. If so, nothing can be easier for him than to intentions
wipeout'a
with respect to Ireland—it may be that I calumniate at-
any stain upon his character which such an imputation
may affix. I attribute to him the design of placing the
lives and liberties of his Majesty's subjects at the disposal
of a majority of five officers of the line, not one of whom
may be more than 23 years of age. I attribute to him
the design of placing the lives and liberties of his Majesty's
subjects in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant and three
such officers. T here is no obligation upon the Noble Lord
to sit silent ; be may in a moment fling from him the im-
putation, and CAI: it to the winds. I say, I understand
that he intends to propose and support a measure in this
House, which I hesitate not to describe as the most ap-
palling instance of cold, heartless despotism—of a tyran-
nous determination to crush the freedom of a people, ri ally
unoffendiug, that the history of mankind can furnish.
America revolted for less cause; fort denied it is to the
trialbyjury,
was allowed to the Americans, but
Irish : they may be convicted and condemned by three En-
signs or Lieutenants, as the case may be. Need I suggest;
to the House that the members of the military profe-sion,'
above all others in the community, are open to the in-
fluence of apprehension and the hope of reward ; by appre-
hension, of course, I do not mean mere physical cowardice,
1-but an apprehension of the displeasure of their supe-
ciors, and the hope of promotion in their profession.

letter
These Judges, as they ate called, are empliatiej the eft,
dependent. They may lose their oflices.--o°' karoat,
I say they may. The right to dismiss a MiiitlOne:vialup:
is a part of the prerogative of the Crowu. 09041), eeerled
the refractory be dismissed, but the supple and c, rod Peasant'
may be rewarded with the Government of NO' tV
and I know not what-(Hear, hear,
theyheir)--ert'xe, 'Mike a
are the tribunals to which I understand it is ("lrea ay 14
of the Noble Lord to propose that the people (5. p. fllfttu
should he subjected, and a tribunal,
possess the power to punish witnesses if they
testimony. lam old enough to remember then 00
tin's tc
events of 1798 ; I remember that in that year, 40_00 I'dge
‘vdohici'dertee • htholale'r!gl.
na'e inan,nitilied Grady, was brought before a e oil the tut
-I remember, too, that at the time to which lon o° tl
attention, the great Catholic counties were evcrirr dtl should
them quiet, and Kerry was so perfectly undistur It tl the 1,01
there was not a soldier in the whole countd
twits I'vereig
eounty hut one s litary outrage took placer difiefif Prcialiet
occasioned
,rotiou rhos-there
thought
uita
good
de
mwtearesurae ill-advisedtfoewplai.ea quaci! te
vdigo,a,,e
ner
acy u
ind ammunition in the barracks at Tralee, at' served
Cody of them was confided to three drunken
same persons came from the county rife eft"interred this slender guard, and carried olt bko; 4try.A
same persons charged with this offence wee he neapssof
hie
before a courtmartial, and tried.-( Hear.) is"jotdybo, ttlitan eyttz
Grady, when they were first taken into etr
lie thought he knew one of them ;he was °Lid t° be pu
over, but lie was compelled to attend the trial, for the tar
lie ~ as then examined and called upon to identlY,eilitr the etfer
them, be expressed some doubts, and could not ate
01(
decline that he was one of the party-the unfortfhe ttlet tvi'r;
was sent out, and endured one hundred lash's e• t tit pen
then called in, and required to identify the pri'°°;ro; t'',ll?-1
he was unable to do, and a second time he "ll' ;11'14am
and again received one hundred lashes. API° delSr vtb 144
called in, and once more interrogated-again be eris°l4; ad Gov,
that conscientiously he could not identity th'i,u't :"stthei
and a third time was he sent out to be flogged,' sti ,111 kei„:
the three hundred lashes were inflicted, he fatnt toibt Jet th:
ended the prosecution.-(Hear, hear.) Are ‘ce „ 00' kp''l
caurtsmartial again in Ireland ? Are all the orFprel t,„"hte4
acts of all their predecessors to be revived by the coOr' -'ther
Administration ? And are they to superinducevorti' ease
martial upon those? And in addition to ceure.oet?'
are they to give the right of punishing scit%veltr
(Hear, hear, hear.) Are they further to itnPAr-d lie tt,'sh,t„,h.
hat, by removing all legal responsibility ? tart
this to
C
glishmen
cation of
ill
lib. sties
ab:btilsfuesiesliseserrseitt.
tnsyuipi,riii,oriejuwiezetien,gcee,isanctioned
requires,
struggle
uiati
itltn,h.rr-dHaey
anindlval,
-if
nineteenth
ttoia(icdei,iktadeyi
nc:snieeeno:r(nnetflt
no:
enough
jog:no:041,v:
ioatitvni
,eorevltgeelvi
ipht
4tvit:itlteev:lptee,ert:.uayt
011-:
al, others, stood by our English Reformers durian,,g Ger 'tttn4s peon,
lover of
' sit
f
spirit
that my
man (cave
liberties of
further into these details ; why need I? if
s;aergle" 44... 1
t
do I require ? Let the breasts of English Belbrg tieP4l
spond to that interrogatory. What I say -
it 11 rte
lace with the calumnin:tioftot tf
bearing. I demand inquiry-let tne be confront' pel to,
and
inquiry at that bar-and let there be an end CO loot 'lke-I,'
idoseu(pt,elfan:yiunepgoimll:ttrheyoe......o nr:testtults,e,ofify4:::
in Ireland which gives the class of persons ostens 400 kI
at I
played to put down disturbances a direct interest in pie uti
tug and exciting thetn. Do not place the Irish ifa6i tab delngilue
etintritiou than die negro slaves of the West 10esfill;
happily or themselves, do not feel the degreaatiend#, jt,'lY ro ty t
condition. Give rue an inquiry in the face of theteet,, trlalt4 it
I pledge tnyst 11 to straw toe real causes of di•c'"ter f
• h
the sources of disturbance. Not only are the RP t4t
be dein ived of the other rights to which I have ca",l ;0r kre it% tn-
tiou, but they are to lose the right of petition-4° iltr,
upon them the most grievous penalties, and Yau,,tied tiNegt'
they shall not even complain. It was a SO' I,4;'tt to
right to petition that drove the House o;glitl,s; 44 j'4l
lion' the throne of these realms other cause,' trn"' omit Wee
contributed, but Englishmen would not endure a. firiti leti.rsta,
of the right to petition. The last of the Stuart' 1:0 Iic:11, I 2
the religious freedom of the country. I agree::, to
tat
in 'eiigious doctrines and discipline ; but I rer-t'tlfi', toe''ettd
and despise him as a politician ; and I maintain e felt th,:4tiae
intolerance proves him never to have understood o.rofel, 11.46
it
icfluence of that hely religion of which he W3' 3 Port" 'Le
He infringed the right of petition, and r‘#) tatii°,4l•'!
ground for the revolution ; and that revolut"'Te la '414,i
totes the title deed of the present Monarch of 1,e„,014:, 4st I
his throne, and a better title to it a Itlonarc"de ink,.,tttint
have, though there has since been added to that " 144
e
h' sot
ivsebetierittgianodpone:
rgas eseaieorni
necessary
eor
lirpaihts:e.hytrtent dfieoiint,ra
aar
us
seer
question-Is
ntni-ct
eo,vvuleasl
rd.
nitbotoet :eft
t:flibe;eivi:
001 r?,80;,
,b,lOll
httio:itltWhat
I nay a
Have we not gr ater and more intolerable gi pos (It", is to
complain of? In peverty and misery, Dahl
ego! 1,55 tr, tea
voice of Irish complaint to be heard ? yieri 111;l' ,2
the wretched, you shall not tell your tale „f el" it' nougat Par
fioin him his last resource, and you impose yr beeP aet4ltark
humanity its last horrible aggravation. I baf',, of kei,t, the
that predial insurrection has been the contsequeri.e aa,
t cal agitation. I say that directly the revertiei; I See,
iigain I would repeat the challenge for inquiry' 1d :het
{sat affirm, that every species of calumny 1 C"3',, 10'1, the
I y further, that predial agitation has not hee'llar:i ttlet,‘tid•
exist in any quarter where it has not arisenlitifisi
re is
oppression. Take up any case of predial
ak el
you think proper, and you will find it commenjerd 0 44'1)11,4
the usual crimes-the same quantity of nor, refor:, Nttitly
mitted ; but the question for an enligtened anT,, 0.0 \thNtol,
Parliament to determine is, how far I‘l'n[ thtil4,t,rd
instrumental in keeping it on foot? I late')(l‘ rft,tat'aeY
newspaper one of the greatest falsehoods-i-'ao,,,,jaho tt.ti; hCre
hold word-that ever appeared in a public rdiatlrd kkai 411 d I
stated that the county of Cork is at this rnoinen: if eq' Nth` 'vitt,
'There never
endtehy;aetr neithertwh eas anyK
iisng thing iacnyogou, morentsy gcountrue.aroer, aoo7alpta.::irai
iOU
of
North disturbed. In Louth a predial insurr'i 0/, ti"l:ti4 tv(pi,
recently stripped, but not by the interference ;, part, tfrie,
went. lam sorry the Member for Worcester ',;1,1 Vret,t'titet
in his place, for I am sure, if he were, I eh
1-relstv; "tta;i'"th
him to feel that he had not done justice fe • diet n•
voting impliedly for the coercion of Ireland, Ll,' ~0010 ',ia" to
the address; and I the more regret it, wben%or, old
that there is no 111,mher in this House who? ;oil'''. teas wand
Ministers is more independent, or whose 1? dad( ~ntEo and
diem partakes less of a factious character. 'l', I ;, nl
become me to speak in public of anything tlire-t. „('ll.ltatild
may have done l;
but if I had the Alember t° 40'0, f. 4114,.)
ter in private, I think I should succeed in, CIO°, of
o nttl,
him, that I have succeeded more rffectollYreti°'s fiel hey
other individual in preventing predial
(Hear.) So anxiously and earnestly did I enga'l4e/ ins laryY' tl
work in the year 1822, that an address of 01i,°esoffe„i at
to the humane and gallant officer who corn,,esc't ti4:4te-ti tt
forces stationed at Cork, where the tlisturtfa%ooo tt,411Y..,4
prevailed-I allude to Sir John Lambert--tOtorloe pencilt ' poi
own pocket he defrayed the expense of printingtherly kvlvitt,
hating 36,000 copies of that address. I claien' • ' Ilfe t
ctle"ol‘ ts "
most successful in preventing predial 0 Olif,_4l•lt
will prove that assertion, if you will grant 103",:fice't t
at the bar of this House. As to any til't"rr' ccitjt „TN, libi
may exist at present, I maintain that theY at.regect 14"ittip;',4elti
chiefly Cu, the county of Kilkenny. If any nun to 4 and oat
been committed in Wexford, I have every ro'°"10 t. 1,11111210%,
that they have been committed by strangers' 00'1:,1 tetra eVAii
I
t
ivgfiee:nop.pignuonieouso,glaeviinl.:slaill;:o:optdttbtvefirg:ioete;tttilvirhhinuvveilesrtdoeidneAttautilunesihffiseoynasenoeitrrtommrehinesa‘eo(btiuwl
Assembly
existencefoi
hoii
is
psaroiorot:lptaeehrrsoe:iu:nris:Efnaat
ctn.:
amui,,3re.tdimi3eeetrair:va
bocaein, srlcir-(l3edeeiliigigtil,
,Ittlvcs
,LttithlN:yxyluilree?at4aiii
suetledtp
obtweo
edrfi
Ireland,suc lovaerrge
ui
al discovered,
nrbaie
ctei
rk
pacity to legislate for that country. Once ).° ort',c
to repeat my protest against this system et
()
°old gala Cvj
I tell the House that special commissions sf
plish all that could be required-all that anl'd etdtCt°ts tar
demand. Special commissions never have to t
:re ,t,q
the second always succeeded. T`;°mit,Oi%t tt
Clare, the insurgents were complete mastery 031
dta 4, pan
ae al,
try, hut two special commissions put an en a per 'vio,_,kitt
matter. If Government would only i's°„l-‘ll.l'ltai Zhicit`l%..
coininission of that kind, all difficulty ‘"),-;taret,d.re
titt
In Cork, two commissions succeeded ; 00)1 'itrta,t',t
were attended with the same resialts; and Is°' );:t.
an
Clare and Galway. 1 will prove, too, at tl, Vv4 twill
'flitted, that there would not he the slightest berc,do ,11 Pe,
s • 1 01 the '4
obtaining honest and independent Jur° 'ooveell ill Urea
one instance of a Juror having been at all inbt gl :ha ittyt
even in consequence of any verdict he rnig bePte,of
`tier s
and that, Gentlemen, was the agent of 'll, a. on v N„
lord, and, therefore, not likely te• be popn'3'leirge'll rite
counts, for everything harsh the absentee bitoe.t". 1
run,:
Wa
agent, and everything gracious lie assumes latioo j tyrisi!t,
as to witnesses, the greatest misrepresent
ne ia/vof tilgahy
abroad with respect to them. I ka°"' °do °eel' tat 44,
the county of Clare where a witness attelie i2ouot
markets and every public place, tbough.vvenrej, 471,ge 61 thi
crony against the persons concerned inc.t. 'fee
tons. When a county happens to be traitor
jaerje? lirsoet a
does the Government usually do ? ThacnYj lir° f' tb,'1tie,414443
police force; that may be a very wise bi_ta
caution ; but it would be much more .I,:itire ett
crease the military farce, for, by incieatv"le Nal" "I r
give an influential class a direct interest in
turbance. The Hon. and Learned Gentle°

I

I

11), deter letter era
phatiea eer In the Rev Mr. Pally, of Tullow, describing
Itte, . `'rts Made h
o An, to y spies in the pay of Fong" persons not
a In" ' upon
"'ace the people from peaceable habits and pre.
1. l'i°t9l)ol eterled
antr othoeeninto take unlawful oaths. He then pro.
de and °ter Pe "
found
thef those persons as arrested, and the
of round: tle
„r ,
,h'",..! to reni. greatest difficulty in prevailing on the
heirS-h-eJiote' "'lee aro b'.'" them to the county The
tis niay itrary, and gao • acts of the
their authority is all-powerful, as
„male be/ proved b
, hies te ugh. Hid y their conduct in the case of Paddy
toot t 11‘71eehr().1"e isthf:tshoer is suspected by them—they enter
they do pot
tee o, a respectable person, and a free-
ilia a aloe t, „viol tyrou un-barrel is found, and the' police drag
year, a tod 'adge r
a eour 11, the , ten in the• e ,fine miles from his dwelling, and
,ahlich sal lilesinutise for thegul Tullow, In this instance, neither
ere
evay or)
041,trate i_
Co gun-barrel belonged to the father.
unit ttt.
the d there'"? neuhed—no committal is signed. Wh
un! t
toverl_t.oitte,
are 1t,,. would be loss of time—unreicessary_y
county. date
!Ace, an sce ell! all and everything—their authority is
promised
t, remonstrated with them in this case, and
adeiced oto at' Acc
p'll.l)._llStleeof Commons
oWnsOUldbring the affair before a Reformed
nd ib where I could prove that this same
e erred t rather this ' • '
eeoken eft Silent obe victim of police outrage—de-
e etridsstit, thsi.
'he
If it retel unerated by the present Govern-
d ref the of! lisi.r`"e pacific,wished to rewind those who laboured
re y_Alti, :loon of Ireland. During the reign of
ee wine ~ 4°, this
The takemaltreated individual risked the loss
ti.) , ' " defending his father, who refused to
oto boy any -ftil oath •
ot / to More se I could bring before this House
was nand
the ;Put enti:lrstitiPiles of loyalty given by men who are now
e trial, soe artial law. lam ready to produce at
to identhctivi the (.4 of thi,
iuld not r diet;t4reieeHouse, evidence that will show whether
measures proposed by Government he expe-
enfortus3. Iseh not,
I
r or
,eseidenee,
eArnd,l say to you, when I.am prepared with
:Le
erisooel:te the people with u ought you, to legislate for a country
uhcerwas ser'ol ! ettratve tehat out the most deliberate inquiry into it and
the people of a who e country to be
Ag'in eivieeth/P the mere
ipse dixit of a Minister ? Their
/gain he eriso°' '4l What
sty the r vf, 11h4thnvernment it
"—they interfere with the acts of a
10„ge, hot oi e.ineo9
0,
_by petitions, and they are guilty of the
bj yet 'tltit,rs I,,,o.ttences--pol it ical agitation. Oh, what folly
here
0,0 torea, 14ai'to,thing
shofwLey do not wish for a repeal of the Union,
s the more infallible necessity of that re-
OF rot
tootlesa he'
all the p ir measures They
,d by the coor' qht repeal
~„ • . are contributing more to
tee r, And the Union than all the agitators put
rinduce siti!
whiy should it not be so ? Let us reverse
"to ourt°
in_ orioles-4:4 Supposepeee,e -in Irish Parliament legislating fir the
,06 itoproyei, leash'ith Qol,Ph_na and passing such laws for them as the
„S 3 te what .0'• tnent are now endeavouring to pass 'or the
ty ? th: sad uld be the consequence? Birmingham would
eut ,ve,thee fel,,!tryth,e_uoleer determined thous IMIS to remonstrate at
o'. stn
tProofit 7,, ittheir senate- house; Sheffield would ins antly
rs du :hi': ttet't ofiorciti,onhe spirit of her inhabitants; and the very
us
titto.o
t. would " rise and mutiny," until the spark
00 co k ouid7ev hem was extinguished in blood. English-
," wilt tore. pk,stiere;",‘ vet
allow themselves to he debased lay such
I.be ajoeiefe, tirt.stol havetneine why should Irishmen ? For my own
1" ht:e t of; a "!en ace-used of intentions that I never
o°loo
raas,,r; tte(l..sittgd feared calumny, I should long since
ish Befreier
0, heel ealeaania.oe arena of politics. I care net how much
let;tt tse,,rra. eo_ rd, when the vials of defamation are poured
), iu account of my exertions in behalf of my
lo'euriretsroYitaeff,cel' if thatl deservet not calumny, and the English people
rnoted etation o not, when I say, in my justification—
cu-let
o.le
au sash end
still to my case be necessary—that I have ever
dto tbei),e6 I tiles° eeow_,m, most attached to a British connexion.
long` evs,„
t,a2 may be turned against me in Ireland, but
re,en eisteOl'oic
t pt dr met as 4,vsung rather than abandon truth. Yes, as
titer' 0 a dpi the utility of the connection, and an itn-
e ; 441 •ItY
tally • exist, I should prefer seeing this House
I„,be ete ,tee so, o
s of ltlee by io my countrymen, rather than it should be
sgreaa day, tY to cat Lsgislature I repeat that tl • • l
xof the' et' ,ea tor i‘ee turne, •this avowal is
di.cOnteL? ,„„ ," against me in Ireland, but I adhere to
or le eery
of 7 abstract opinion. If I thought that the
the Irt4'
~11.-$ t4te ,tlitid „the present Government would work well
have,' esr f,,, It% there never d
.on_eeyoti
.I,e ive a man more ready to facile-
tain
you to
it! E,441 g a ts than I am. 'lle only reason I have
d Peale'', is the injustice of the present Go.
a rrfu e, 4, awards
of unia,, my country. That Government
I"uuse. „tish' fe as ital ine,4l.l Just, so long as it lacks proper' and im-
e,a aft tits,, 'vete, ation ; and this House must legislate,
idn' weestiae h lood-winked, until the necessary inquiries
Stuarts •tV Y It, /
fi agit have been accused of selfish motives
I agre! .t set!, and .
I „dee, el see, a° aucried out for a repeal. I can be
i . eatii ,ed rr, en accusation now, when I declare that this
iniiata.'' tt,,, iltiv -"sore of his Aljesty's Government is more
ferstood 19. too
3 oro'_i (iesr repeal of the Union than all my agitation,
lei-for 7 rise ate o 're a hundred-fold greater. You may put
ee that 0 spd,4 40442 •flgse repress associations, smother public ha-
revoluti" 441 4,''ut, tell ore,b
of Lc eel ti Nee, ow can you gat private conver-
rch °`..4 ee 'to ytiet'! t te communication, which, when resorted
Uon,c" _idetts Ingrtithi 'ill more dang rims than onen proceedings ?
to that pass I will nut with it—that :llinisters, in wish-
Id be't.lle tiotft,L4ot dti_ds Act of Parliament, have an after t! ought.
8 not ' „pin, Dory erected against those who are repealers, for
as to
viEsa:eir; -i:
‘less calculated to' prevent repeal. I'll tell
Joe, against---and I only tell you what
ible oef '
ph" to "'nee, believe--its direction,its real
yugi ' bea nr"ee the collection and payment of tithes.
BY 14:4' let r)
When a .
c.oe,
1.1,4 ally this Act of I arliamen- shall have
„set
evearibsee'j parish resist the payment of tithes, and let
I intro IE4 ,tt (t, kor by_ any—tee clearest accident—be burned a
aerice eiJ ite.„4,,l'ilay. stack, and then it will he seen to
, aed t is attributable. Woe to such a
sl
te,,Tr• ri het,, than "8 to the man in it that dares refuses
quiryrljd jeffe !-tt c4ra hear.) For them no other mercy
te coUL he the teeder
licett !• Liar pity of dragoons and marines.
notfro t) o; Id niers of Engl end mind what I have
arisen „eel litittvgte . '"Y will find the truth of to words—this
dial oriel Intend
el;e. to effect the payment of tithes, and
COIYI
reero,.el k the when I say this, I know that I am only
of mu A reloo„ ntly aocuteations of selfishness. with which lam
anred.
,11°01,t, but I will again tell my accusers that
h!ly pro ;
o'iety re. if t, det,st`e t against every shade of midnight crime;
Ila A the d and abhor as much—most probably more
mese..an- eie oy, here the intihe pr!offi 44,44, the ery mention of murder and blood. I
ana sincerelost but humble advocate of my coun-
rrsPum.lnelttaie ttizpy eta ready to adopt any additional enact.
- Gal of I .'peetitient to it, provided it can he shown that
arl.ool Pun the Will prevent the crimes complained of—
r
jo• Y_.rectld tj,N, pre without making the innocent suffer.
sort' Ou/, soya! Would "ng the Constitution ;L- for I wish that !NB-.
fecence Out sr,e have re. ris
eft te... 5.;
and course to no means but constitu.
I offer them—if my profession gives me
,resets hold el! '1.11,11'11(44
e, lielS rt ern, t Y over la men I
s:ice to nen tkl 14, ,) the y repeat, I here publicly
I a_
0. full extent, my services and cordial co-
and, hY.,9rijernle!e' ,%3'tZ,4 ;......uegest that constitutional law should be
wben qta,,,ul„l , that
„.hose he bre, criminals, or those supposed to be
14:11, rid te "tight before a Jury of their country-
hose "t arof ft,.qttt,,44,1 th"aa,t the Judges of the Idnd should try
;ter- ,at let" of , they should not be sutjected to the
ehmitt,grrtPeor it't,(14441..4,1d i,t.a.ry officers. For the crimes of a
tell 'in 001.00 tht,o!. Then° le country be put under martial law ?
t', trsile Nreert:sly_persons Government have to fear—
eelltist and' I
.fear—are Whiteboys and White.
the like of them, are the onle, portion
ei I 00e Pet th"4Y; that ar
0. ofied e enemies resin the amelioration of their
tokt4,l aid),it '°ne oppose tance to the execution of
(I:,teuara,totieedgt,c,.l
Nevlseraegainst them alone, and not against the
oat
h't pleasures should be directed. It is a
.t_....ri
300 0, !areiti 7P; false, and foul calumn
auto darew aver
)1.41614'00y aer,Neettlth tftleal agitators of Ireland are inY
claictic'tiora ht„l'e 4%2" infringers of the law. I hyave"nYocw"-I
isurre so ' ! t 4 atersed upon the patience of the House, but I
tad'irOte.oficej
oag y for cann so, since my voice has
dietu e lee m the pure se of freedom and of cousti•-•
the!,
aairt.heesvt Lattal4ip,l.lSlo,‘3.% I have a few remarks more to make—
any 40,q111,rv", to put to Ministers, Why do you w
reesoo/.0 es lea Measures ? Have you not already a watcalan-t
egers- oelt tstity 4t,he aLbservient police ? Have
re as 00 tath New Ld
?writers , you not reporters
your pay ? Do they not attend
I d"s htt?lng o hoes ;ern.
eri a 1,t00.,, 4re not every word that is uttered
t degrrA IlteeeliaPete? not all public preceedings detailed in
naieen iss et, 85 48,d Have •() •
f ire b Ohl d Y tnaci you not in your power—et your
ate 0 ,30e r, snn,er iinery to detectall that
eat ' t, 'S, re oes
that fovea: sy li 0 pet a _ you ? And will not that machinery
_ sect,leleanest°P to all that you may object to ?
perfeee,•
todri.eltei zeki4tv,,tlkito punimuti coercive powers ? You have Juries
VinceB for $1:01; if J,;:?tts, witnesses
Ah ! hut your excuse is that then
fier.v
ver,„ jorieesses ! You want none—yOu want no
stn I.)yeet
_s(:!----Yes. you do ; you want that sort
ions ),,n..viet without testimony.—(Cheers.)
hat s'j‘le'l laril At; ill:1 tech th„e
bile-, 4' 41,4 I etttr. th'use to demand that information
evevor
.1„e „ ,e , eat it not to be biassed or led away
Too • f 11e1 `gee °Y the auth •of
asters ° tee ee, tectiesoge they
8. authority any set of men,
eva to
eroo
,t), 1,47 a full
should he. I supplicate the House
i.BOO eel, erhiittetTst toe it ample, and detailed inquiry into
wool(' tNidtti 00.,,, fte such inquiry that erime
yin Littii,e
ir!s, e,p_setet`,4lt, thet
t.l,,biatent—that it can be effectually
nd l!r :lief can be afforded to the grievances
at tbeclocli tetiti Aftrcobt4i°n:,, You are calied upon to legislate
,bteat befe,,4 IV O!totti.i " any certain and satisfactory in-
t leti, the 'lee 'e " grant the ow
/roes ore t! tl y e the row era_ p ers that are asked of
martial law, think you,
all ititi'lestr7l '441 4,41 to Peasant
_hoe
(00, ati,we et, eke
trender Lim more tractable?
"'Lot abis;ot 1": t..); with the evils of absenteeism ?
,opotar
otei th,
).10tig ? 11,12 rd exact less—will they render
ntec let lee/ • 410 st Y 4'ty a the 10 these questions I distinct!
yes to 1;1: teiri let ty:...egr:vy.t,iotif.letaiewon!_rary! this is the very process
eentiitt ;pi!, tl'eet tee igte th c`rt It I may use the expression is
c til*, teat e evils complained of increase to ;he
aer °fife the
m'kr,l . Let those •
atte':
gh e o)mcit hed, duid measures he adopted—
' th 'steel it tem the troops of the Govern-
twelv ‘/ ee• el Ste, when
be presented th • •
ter of ees, , h e same image
c ire! et 411 and ° marched for three days
• ti je, Pt '54 tin., bn, populous
sti tiot a county of Loutu—an
• ill lilt, Yetee, "tip I vestige of • •
eultivation—not a
~t;a tri
ep "toe this e,
twei very n
gibepcitnin
tfihnsir
efj"..°l' e,1;,0.4gh
niantee'it your
7 op t,o*:tilo,io,:ii.3l,oanze.- !sore implore English-
t 111.°„11'
el/dents"
strength
o_'" Lot to nod niy country-
. I the mere assertions of

Government. I solicit inquiry, and if the result of it
should be unfavourable to us—if English:nen should thi k
we ought to he governed by such measures as those now
proposed, why then I shall be the first to say, let Ireland
submit, she will submit, if she he found guilty; for never
was a nation so willing to acknowledge her errors, and
stoop to the penance that may be exacted from her faults.
She has always given proofs of this spirit, though she has
been told by Sir John Davis and Lord Redesdale, that with
respect to her inhahitants, there was always one I ity for
the poor and another for the rich. In the face of a Re-
formed Parliament I call upon its English Members to
justify the expectations that -not only the nation, but the
whole if Europe have in them. I call upon them not
to give their sanction to these measures—not to condemn
unheard, and confound every civil and political right. Be-
fore they act unjustly towat di Ireland, I hid them, how -
ever, he c ,utious, and reflect open the monetary aiid commer.
cial system of t' eir country. I bid them,however, think upon
the Powers of Europe. Let injustice be done to Ireland,
and you will see what weight England will have in the
Congress of Nations! Let insurrection and rebellion be
created in Ireland, and you will soon se the value of
your Three per Cents. upon the Stock Exchange.—
(Hear, hear.) Be unjust towards Ireland, and your mea-
sures of economy will go for nought. You will have
an incteased standing army—you will have thousands
of other mercenaries under various denominations,
to support whom the taxation you complain of must be
kept up, if not increased. Besides which, you will have
its moral consequences—you will he accused in the face
of Europe of ingratitude, and it will be said that Ireland
hates you, as she ought, if you sanction such measures to
be passed against her. England, your country, is at this
moment powerful, for she is compact, and, as it were
coiled up. If she is so, she owes it in a great part to
Irishmen, who aided her in her political agony, saved her
from the weakness resulting from the distraction of party,
and restored her to the vigour that, when contented, she
possesses. I sit down with the hope that the glad tioings
will, ere long, reach my country, that independent Eng-
lishmen and Scotchmen will prove by their resistance to
the passing of those measures, that they prefer the in-
violability of the Constitution to all other considerations.
Their vote upon this occasion will not only preserve the
Constitution, but render the Union of the two countries
durable. I mean, if that vote be, as I trust•it will be,
against the enactment now projected by Government.
May they, in the event of their resistance to injustice, in.
gratitude, and oppression, have their reward. There is
one that I can promise them—their names, how uncouth
soccer their sound, will be re-echoed in the valleys of my
country, and, at the mention of aem, blessings will be
poured upon the heads of those to whom they belong.—
(On re-noting his seat, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was loudly cheered.)
Lord ALTHORP could not help saying that the Hon.
and Learned Member had, in the most unusual manner
possible, Bragg, d in the discussiian of the measures that
Government contemplated towards Ireland. He would
not follow the example of irregularity set by the Hon.
and Learned Member, and would defer speaking upon the
measure until it was brought before the House, when it
would be seen whether the statements on each side were
founded in fact or not. The HMI. and Learned Gentle-
man had stated, at some length, the great evils that would
attend the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; but
when that measure was regularly before the House, the
House would decide whether its temporary suspension was
not preferable to the continuance of the evils with which
Ireland was afflicted. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
hal said that there was no relation between present and
previous agitation, and he referred to the state of Ireland
in 1821 and 1824. He (Lord Althorp) would be pre-
pared to prove that there existed a strong relation, and
that crimes were as great now as they were then, and
consequently requited the same remedies. It might be of
some injury to his Majesty's Government to allow the
statements of the Hon. and Learned Member to go for-
ward without contradiction. He would not now disprove
those statements one by one; but he would pubicly enter
his protest against their general veracity, solely with the
view that Government might not be injured by them. If
the duty devolved upon him to bring forward those mea-
sures in that House, he would not do so unless he found
himself prepared to show that there were absolute grounds
for their adoption.
_ _

Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR implored the House, as
eagerly as did the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin,
not to commit itself before it had made inquiry and heard
satisfacteiry evidence. He denied that Ireland was in the
disturbed state Ministers represented it to be in. In his
county a large one (Cork), there was but one instance of
murder lately, and he would ask whether that isolated
crime justified the putting of the whole county under
m irtial law ? He agreed with the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin, that this was an Act, not to repress
agitation, but to insure the payment of tithes. The Mi-
nistry were about to govern with bayonets and bullets, and
would dwindle from having been the most popular the
country had had for some years, to be the most unpopular
and nio•t sincerely detested. If they meant to make Ire-
land a colony, they could not adopt better measures than
those they propos-d. The Right Hon. Secretary opposite
him hail said, that he would resist the repeal of Union to
" the death ;" now, in his turn, he would use the same
expression, solemnly declaring that he would resist the
ado/Finn of the present measures to the death. He begged
the House to reflect, that though by this mea-ure they
drove eight millions of their fellow subjects beyond the
pale of the Constitution, and that though they might de-
stroy many of the most refractory of those people, many
more would remain who would long remember the wrongs
they suffered under so tyrannical an act.
Colonel CONOLLY said, the lion. Member for Dublin
had given a very eloquent and impressive description of
the grievances which Ireland was suffering, and deprecated
the measures which bad beer. adopted and were in course
of adoption towards that country. He considered that
those measures were for the protection of the peaceable
inhabitants, and to relieve the loyal and well-affected from
a tyranny infinitely more terrible and more despotic than
any which could be experienced under the most absolute
Governments. He knew that in Ireland there was a system
e;f organized and unconstitutional combination against pro
perty.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial Benches.) It
was too notorious a fact not to be known to all who were
at all acquainted with Ireland. The province of Leinster
was in a most disturbed state, and he could not conceal it
without incurring the most aA ful responsibility. He himself
had bad occasion to know it. He lived within ten miles
of Dublin, and he was threatened with having his house
burnt down if he would not turn away his steward. The
lion. and Learned Member for Dublin hail stated that he
never attended any of the meetings held in Ireland to pro-
cure the abolition of tithes. Now, he had sworn infor-
mations before him that that gentleman did attend an anti-

tithe meeting at --. [We could not catch the name.]
—( Loud cheers.) There was a delusion practised on the
nation—a delusion which was likely to draw destruction
upon it; and he begged to ask if a man who was thus driv-
ing the most ignorant of the people to destruction—who was
resorting to the most improper means to goad them on—
and who was holding out to them prospects of impunity for
their most violent and illegal acts—could such a man, he
asked, have the proper feelings of humanity in his breast?—
(Loud cheers.) He was sorry thus to expose the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, but he conceived it a
duty he owed to that House and to the country—and he
hoped that his testimony, humble as it was, might tend
to disabuse the House and the country, and to open their
eyes to the scandalous imposition which was practised
upon thern.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SHELL said, that the Gallant Colonel had fur-
nished in his own person some evidence of the character
of those military tribunals which were to supersede the
ordinary judicature in Ireland. His manifest impartiality,
iiis freedom from all passion and all prejudice, strongly, no
doubt, recommended the dressing of justice in regimentals.
—(Hear, hear.) Who could be so unreasonable as to
object to a triumvirate composed of such men as the Gal-
lant Colonel ? Who could think his liberty or his home in
hazard, when they were to be confided to men who, under
red coats, bore so much calm disinterestedness as the Gal-
lant Colonel ? He had told the House a narrative respect-
ing his steward and his house—why did he not condescend
to go into some particulars which extended beyond him-
self? Is the Habeas Corpus Act to be suspended, and the
Constitution to be outraged, because the Gallant Colonel
has received threatening intimidations relative to the me-
nials in his employment ? He (Mr. Sheil) had risen prin-
cipally with a view to the statement of facts. The House
seemed indisposed to go into the details of the proposed
at itute ; but it was as well that the House and the public
,hould know the exact state of things, and that if the Le-

g :slat nre was to strike at the vitality of freedom that it
should not be aimed in the dark. The administration of
justice, it was alleged, was impeded, nay, almost ar-
rested in Ireland. This was broadly stated ; and with-

out inquiry, without the decencies of a preliminary Coin-
mitt& of investigation, the House was called upon to
legislate on this bold and unsupported asseveration. There
had been recently in Ireland several trials connected with tithe

combinations. Offences were charged that related to
grievance by which the national sympathies were most deeply
moved. There had been trials in Dublin, Cork, Kerry,
Clonmel. The House would, no doubt, suppose, that in all
these cases, no witnesses, no juries, no verdicts could be pro-
cured. How would they be surprised, when they were in-
formed, that in every one of these cases there had been convic-
tions.-- Loud cries of " Hear.") Yes, he repeated it, convic-
tions. In no one case had there been an acquittal; the de-

fendants were convicted, sentenced, and some of them are at
this moment in their prison-houses; their pallid faces might,
. through the bars of the dungeon, contribute evidence to the
necessity of the abolition of Trial by Jury and the establishment
of martial law.—(Hear, hear.) Thus it was that the grossest
delusion was practised on the credulity of Englishmen. Be
should turn to another topic. It would not be uninteresting,
as matter of history (ter the House would entertain a curiosity
on the subject), to inquire how far the present measures were in
accordance with the opinions previously expressed by the
members of the Government respecting the Insurrection Act.
But there he was wrong, for in no other instance had such a
mass of penalty been accumulated. This measure was, in
quality and quantity of infliction, without a parallel, and
stood unprecedented in the annals of domination. Let
him be then allowed to trace, with as much brevity as
possible, the history of the Insurrection Act. Lord Castle-
reagh, in 1801, did not introduce that Act, but proposed a
martial law, and the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act
for three months. He grounded his measure on the results and
inquietude of the late rebellion, but declared that he should
only embrace three months in his Penal Statute, and in the
interval institute an inquiry, in order to ascertain whether a
further extension were required for public safety.—(Hear )
The proposed measure is to embrace years.—(Hear, hear.)
Castlereagh asks for months, and Lord Grey asks for years.
By whom was that requisition for martial law opposed ? By
Mr. Grey—(Hear)--who exclaimed against the tyranny of such
a proceeding without inquiry. Here was Ireland hot and reek-
ing from civil war. Mr. Grey demands inquiry, and Lord Grey
stands in need of none, when he insists on measures, before
which the Castlereagh code sinks into insignificance, and al-
most evinces a regard for freedom. In 1807, Sir A. Wellesley
introduced the Insurrection Act, which was modelled on an
Irish sanguinary statute passed in 1796. Most of the Whigs
opposed the Bill, with the exception of Mr. Grattan. He
founded his support on the perils of the State, arising from the
French war, and the existence of a revolutionary conspiracy.
In 1814, Sir Robert Peel applied for this terrible Act of Parlia-
ment. He stated that "in Ireland there existed a combina-
tion against the Government; that the people had committed
great barbarities, and that Juries and witnesses were intimi_
dated. The Carders, who derived their appellation from the
use of wool cards, with which they tore the flesh from the
bones of their victims, had committed the most frightful
enormities." Was not this a horrible state of things ? Did
it not equal, nay exceed, all the details of savageness which
have furnished the pretexts of . such copious expatriation ?
Well, what did the Tory Secretary demand? Not martial
law—not a scarlet tribunal—not the extinction of the right of
petition—not the change of a venue, but the renewal of the In-
surrection Act.—(Loud cheers.) Let us come to 18122. Lord
Wellesley sent a dispatch to the Government, stating that the
south of Ireland was in actual rebellion ; the insurgents had
posted themselves in thousands on the hills of the county of
Cork—murder stalked in open day, and the horizon was at
midnight in a blaze with conflagration. The facts were in
the memory of most of the Members of that House. Lord
Wellesley asked for the Insurrection Act. Now hear what was
said by the Members of the Government. The Secretary for
the Treasury, Mr. Spring Rice—(There he is—let him, a real
friend of his country, recall his language to recollection.) Mr.
Spring Rice said, " That it was quite unwarraweble to have
recourse to coercion, without previous inquiry.-,-Woud cheers.)
How could the Noble Lord rely on the efficacy of laws
which had proved wholly ineffectual for the restoration of tran-
quillity in Ireland ? Lord Bacon had said, that to allay sedi-
tion you must allay the matter of it.' What must Englishmen
think of a tribunal invested with the power to transport their
fellow-subjects without the intervention of a Jury.—(Hear.)
As to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, he asked
English Gentlemen whether they would assent to such a mea-
sure if applied to their own country ? He called on the Eng-
lish Members to deal with Ireland as they would with their
own country—nay, he implored them not to allow the Con-
stitution to be unnecessarily violated ; if they did, they must
be prepared for the consequences."—(Hear, hear, hear ) This
was the adjuration uttered from this side of the House, of
which the Member for Cambridge was then an ornament, and
lie (Mr. Sheil) would adopt the same language of emphatic en-
treaty, and implore them to deal towards Ireland as if she
were truly incorporated with this great country. For God's
sake do not tell us one day that Ireland is like Yorkshire,
and another, act towards us a part which would make the blood
of every Briton boil if it were applied to himself. But to go
on—What said Lord Ebrington ?—(Hear, hear.) He said that
" he never would assent to such frightful and oppressive mea-
sures."—(Loud cheers.) What said Mr. Brougham—not
Lord Brougham and Vaux.—(Hear, hear.) "He would seri.
ously ask whether gentlemen perceived the extent of the power
which they were thus incrusting to the hands of others. They
gave to Magistrates a right to enter into the most retired and
delicate part of any dwelling-house, and a power to force the
chambers even of females ; and should any person be found
absent, even after this domiciliary visit, without reason being
assigned, he was liable to transportation. And all this they
did without the interference of a Grand Jury—without
the petty Jury, by verdict--without appeal."—(Loud cheers.)
And this is the man who calls on us now to do the very
self-same thing—nay, more—to vote for the statute which
he thus reprobated as an outrage to all humanity and all
law ; a superaddition, that renders the former Act merciful
by comparison, and makes us desire, as a boon, the solitary
blessings of the Insurrection Act. He had not yet done
with the Ministers. There was another before him—the
great champion of Reform—who had been so often gloriously
defeated in its cause, and had at length won a victory which
would be remembered to all after time. There he is (pointing
to Lord John Russell). In 1824, the renewal of the Insur-
rection Act was proposed. What said Lord John Russell ?
( Hear, hear, hear.) He said, "If we were told that in Aus-
tria, Russia, or Prussia, a law was in operation, by which the
people were confined without light in their houses for twelve
out of twenty-four hours, should we hesitate to pronounce

such a law arbitrary and absurd ?"—(Loud cheers.) And is the
Act, which was arbitrary and absurd in 1524, reasonable and just
in 1833? Was the law changed? or have the men who de-
nounced the law undergone any transmutation ? So much for
Ireland. Turn now to England, and see whether any Mini-

ster ever acted, or dared to intimate that he would act, such
a, part as you are about to perform towards your miserable and
helpless dependant. In 1819, Lancashire was in a condition
represented to be most awful. Hundreds of thousands were
said to be in arms ; but hear the narrative given by Lord
Stanley, as foreman of the Lancashire grand jury. It is one
of the documents on which the Six Acts were founded ; fur-
ther, there was an inquiry. Although the facts were noto.
rious, yet, where the rights of Englishmen were concerned—
aye, of Englishmen—you did not dare to trespass on the Con-
stitution without an inquiry. But where Ireland and her liber-
ties, and the peasants' home, and trial by jury, and the whole
Constitution, and the very name of liberty, are involved.—
* * * * * * * But it is better to proceed to the
narrative. Lord Stanley said, after describing the training
and drilling—" One of the most powerful to which the disaf-
' fected have resorted, is a system of intimidation, which pre.
vails to a most serious and alarming extent ; not only have
threats to persons and property been made use of, and put into
execution, but even combinations have been formed to dis-
countenance and to ruin tho4e publicans and shopkeepers who
have come forward in support of the civil power. To such an
extent does this prevail, that individuals who are well disposed
have been deterred from expressing the sentiments which they
really entertain, and from giving information which may lead
to the detection of the offenders. The object of the lower
classes in general is no other than to reverse the orders of so.
ciety which have been so long established, and to divide among
themselves the landed property of the country. In one popu-
lous district, no warrant for ordinary offences, or other legal
process, can be executed ; the payment of taxes has ceased ;
and the landlords are threatened with the discontinuance of
their rents." This document is signed " Stanley."—(Hear,
hear.) It presents an appalling picture of the condition
of a large portion of the north of England, at that peculiar
moment when public credit had received a great shock,
and the fabric of the State trembled at the concussion. What
course was proposed by Ministers ? Inquiry was first resorted
to ; evidence was laid before a Secret Committee, and the case
having been heard in detail, the House proceeded to pass the
Six Acts. But put them all together—(the Legislature did not
attempt to condense in one concentration of despotism, the
entire mass of coercion)—put all the Six Acts together, and do
you find that the aggregate and sum-total can be weighed with
any sort of equipoise against the single Act of Parliament now
proposed by the Ministers for what they call the tranquilliza.
Lion of Ireland ? Did they establish a tribunal of three Cor.
nets of Dragoons to arbitrate on the liberties of Englishmen ?
—(Hear, hear.) Did they subvert the tribunals of the country,
and raise a new military judicature on their ruins ? Did they
change the venue ? Did they trample on the right of peti-
tion Did they strangle all discussion ? No. But they did
introduce one clause, which they drew from the Irish Insurrec-
tion Act, which gave a right to a Magistrate to break open a
man's house to search for arms.--(Near, hear.) Now hear
—not a mere speech—not a flourish of opposition rhetoric--
not a declamatory ebullition—but a solemn protest, entered on
the Journals of the House of Lords, and thus embodied in the
records of the country. The following is the Protest :
" Because this law is in its very nature peculiarly liable to
abuse; interest, credulity, malevolence, revenge, party violence,
and indiscreet zeal, may equally, with a sense of duty, contribute
to call it into action ; and the powers given for its execution of
breaking, either by day or night, into any house, or place where
information may have been received that arms are kept for illegal
purposes, must unavoidably expose the persons and property of
his Majesty's subjects to injury and violence that cannot be suffi-
ciently guarded against by the provisions made in the Bill for
that purpose. This is not a mere apprehension—experience
proves that such effects may be expected from it. In Ireland, it
is well known, nothing more contributed to irritate the people,
and to promote acts of private resentment and revenge, than the
abuses which took place, particularly the insults which were
offered to women, in the exercise of a similar power."
This is the protest entered at that peculiar and most alarm-
ing juncture, on the records of the House of Lords. By
whom ?—(Hear, hear.) This protest is signed (and let the
name ring in every ear, and reach to many a heart)—this pro.
test, this denunciation of a single clause in the Insurrection
Act grafted on one of the Six Acts, was signed " Grey."—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.) Grey I alas, Sir, is it even so ?
On this signature, compared with the Act of Parliam..nt now
in progress, all commentary would be superfluous. " Grey I"
The name so frought with honour, so encompassed with fame,
is sufficient. Wherefore should we waste ourselves in denuncia-
tions of this measure, when that single name attached to this
recorded anathema against oppression speaks with an eloquence
as potent as it is brief, and swells emotions in every man's
bosom, and recalls recollections to every man's mind, which
the noblest oratory and the most elaborate sanative would
fail to produce. He had quoted many documents, but he
could not deny himself the gratification of referring to
one with which he should conclude. He had already
stated that Lord Castlereagh, in 1810, had proposed martial
law, and a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Lord

Castlereagh had started a Reformer, and as Curran used to
say, came into the House of Commons " cantering on a griev.
ance."—(A laugh.) He was originally almost a Republican—
(No, no)—it was said Mr. Grey, in his reply to Lord Castle-
reagh, adverted to his early Jacobitlism in those remarkable
words :—" There were Ministers who, when out of place,
were factious, who started questions to mislead the people,
who lured them into schemes of reform to overthrow an Ad_
ministration, and then not only abandoned the people, but ac-
cused their old abettors of treason for that they had taught
them to do. If Jacobinism was licentious out of place, in
place it was tyrannical, and filled the country with terror and
coercion. It was the :parent of Reform when out, and of
despotism when in.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") He demanded in-
quiry, and repudiated the doctrine that a measure of severity
ought to be adopted, because it was to be confided to hands so
lenient as Lord Cornwallis."—(Hear.) And where was the
man who would now tell us, that despotism is to be established
in Ireland, because a kind, generous-hearted man was to be its
trustee? Is not this a most fatal doctrine ? How long is he
to continue the depositary of the trust ? How can you answer
for his successor ? The Viceroy may be changed, but the
statute will remain; and whipping, and laceration, and tor-
ture, and all the horrible train of calamities that attend the
exercise of military authority may hereafter follow this fright-
ful measure. He should not accuse this Government, or any
man connected with this Government, of any disposition to
cruelty and actual oppression ; but how could they guarantee
the contingincies of the future ? Their theory might become
another's practice. They were to fabricate the law, that Lord
Anglesea might keep it in the scabbard ; but hereafter ano-
ther hand might draw it forth and steep it to the hilt in blood
It might be thought that these observations ought to have been
reserved forthe transmission of the Bill from another place.
No, for it was of importance that at once, before any further
progress in this enterprise of oppression had been made, the
House,—the Commons of England, the people of England,
the Ministers themselves, should see what they were about to
do. Look at your own work ! Behold the mass of ponderous
manacles you prepare for Ireland ! Examine every chain—
weigh every link—and then you will, as we do, tremble
at their imposition ! You will shrink from the degrading
office of fastening and rivetting them upon us. The In-
surrection Act, martial law, suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act, abolition of juries, change of venue, extinction of the right
of petition--discussion at an end—the incarceration of the pea.
santry in their foul and loathsome hovels—the denial to them
of the very air of heaven—the sacrilege to be perpetrated in
the sanctity of their houses—their privacy violated—their wives
and children dragged at the dead of night by a ferocious police
from their wretched shelter—complete, absolute, unqualified
despotism established—liberty annihilated in substance, and
not even its shadow left behind. Good Heaven !is this, is all
this necessary ? Will nothing short of this suffice ? Bad as
the condition of Ireland is alleged to be, is all this unparalleled
oppression, unexampled in the history of this nation, and un-
surpassed in that of any other, indispensable for what is called
the repose of Ireland? Nay, forbear, relent—we are at your
feet—we are prostrate before you—your pride must needs be
satisfied—give way to your better and nobler feelings, and
remember that the assertion of the liberty of others is the
noblest office you can perform, after the vindication of your own.
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to free himself from a scandalous
imputation which, in his absence, had been cast upon him by
the Hon. Member for Donegal, who had stated that a man had
informed him upon oath, that at a meeting against tithes, he
(Mr. O'Connell) had exhorted the people not to pay tithes, &c.,
and that he (Mr. O'Connell) had for his attendance received
501. He most unequivocally denied the charge thus brought
against him ; but lie must say, that ii any person really swore
to these slanders before a magistrate, that magistrate had
committed a gross breach of duty in not forwarding an in-
timation of it to the proper quarters. For himself (Mr.
O'Connell) he solemnly declared, that if the name of this per-
son be given him, he will indict him for wilful and malicious
perjury, and more than that, he will indict for subornation of
perjury all those who had any share in inducing the man to
commit so abhorent, so vile, so gross a perjury.
Colonel CONOLLY said, that he would assert that the Hon.
Member for Dublin had come to the town of Leislip, and
stopped at the house of a tenant of his (Colonel Conolly's),
named Herbert ; that the Hon. Member here spoke at a meet-
ing of the nature mentioned by him, and that a subscription for
the O'Connell Fund had been got up among the spectators and
others, amounting to 501., which the Hon. Gentleman received.
Mr. O'CONNELL denied having attended any meeting at
that town, except an anti-union one.
_ _

_ .
Colonel CONOLLY repeated his previous statement, He
was not in the county at the time—(Great laughter among the
Irish Members)—but he arrived at the town a fortnight after,
when the oath was made before him. The man in question had
refused to pay the vicar his tithes, but he (Colonel Conolly) had
refused to receive his rents till the tithes were paid.
Mr. STANLEY rose to give an explanation of several facts
which had been alluded to by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr.
Sheil), and of which that Hon. Gentleman had given notice of
moving for further discussion. He (Mr. Stanley) had no in.
tention of offering any opposition to the production of the

papers relating to the trials at Clonmel, and, indeed, he in.
tended to elucidate these cases by a few additional papers.
That Hon. Gentleman denied that in any instance had intimi-
dation or undue influence been exercised; that there had been
no difficulty in empannelling jurors, or obtaining evidence or
jurors, and that there had been convictions in every case,
which he (Mr. Stanley) would not at all deny. The Hon.
Gentleman had taunted the Solicitor-General with havinggiven
directions to set aside all persons who were Catholics. To
this assertion, in the name of his Learned and Hon. Friend
who was unfortunately absent (the Solicitor-General), he
would give a most decided negative. On the contrary, that
Learned Gentleman had given the fullest directions in the most
public way, that no juror should be set aside on account of his
religion, but only such as could not be supposed impartial judges
from intimidation and fear of danger, and there were as many
of these Roman Catholics as Protestants. The Hon. Gentle_
man said there had been no combination, no intimidation, no
. .

difficulty in empannelling Juries, &c., no disturbance, no po-
litical agitators to calm it. At the period in question, there
were no less than three prosecutions for combination, and

a fourth for the wilful and deliberate murder of a clergyman.
The three first were combinations not to pay tithes ; there had
been a resolution passed about this time by the Clonmel Inde-
pendent Club, signed by a number of persons, who shortly after
pleaded guilty to a prosecution for combination. The resolu-
tion stated "that those who signed it held themselves solemnly
bound in the face of the country, never to have any public or
private intercourse with any person who should become the
purchaser of goods put up for sale for tithe, church-rates, or
vestry cess."—( Hear, hear.) This was not intimidation or
combination.---(Hear, hear, "No," from the Irish Members.)
He would leave it to the House to judge whether this was not

the way to intimidate and produce undue influence. The Hon
Gentleman had stated that there had been no difficulty in em-
pannelling jurors or witnesses. In one case, where Mr. Penne-
father, a Protestant himself, and more curious still, the son of a
Protestant clergyman, was brought upon a prosecution for coin.
bination not to pay tithes—in this case, as a strong proof how
little intimidation was feared, he could only state that the prin-
cipal evidence against the prisoner was obliged to be escorted
to the Court by a large party of military—(Hear)—his brother
lying in bed at the same time, in consequence of a murderous
attack made on him, because he had dared to become the pur-
chaser of some land at a public sale, seized for non-payment of
tithe.—(Hear.) To show how easily Juries were empannelled,
it would be sufficient to state, that out of 205 Jurors, whose
names were called over, 175 did not answer.
Mr. SHEIL, as we understood him, said he wished to know
how they had been called over ?

Mr. STANLEY continued.—ln another case, out of 222
who were called, 172 did not come. In another case, where 244
were called, only 30 were set aside ; and a great Majority did not
come at all. He admitted that the system of arraying all the
rich and powerful—and consequently more sensible—indivi-
duals at the head of the panel, was a bad one. Among those
who had been set aside were many who, like the Hon. Member
opposite--he meant no disrespect—had presided at political
anti-tithe meetings, and who had made themselves busy at
similar proceedings, and it had been thought that such were
not exactly the persons to sit in judgment on persons under
prosecution for offences similar in character to those which
they themselves had been guilty of. He recollected an
instance where one of the persons who had been called
upon to act as juror in a combination case, subse.
quently pleaded guilty of the identical offence. Under
these circumstances, he considered the Solicitor-General
—ho would not say justified—but hound in duty to set
:side the names of all such. In the dreadful case
of the murder of Mr. Bowen—this was not a tithe murder,
but a foul and deliberate act of unprovoked assassination-288
persons' names were called over before a jury could be formed;
of these, it was true, 53 had been set aside by the Crown, 26
were challenged by the prisoner, and 28 begged to be excused.
On this trial four out of the 12 were Protestants, the other eight
were Catholics : so much for the exclusion of Catholics from
juries. The prisoners were acquitted from want of evidence;
but why was this want of evidence ? Not from intimidation or
fear of danger, of course, but only from this circumstance : that
the son-in-law of the murdered man, who would have produced
the most material evidence, sent word that he dared not be a
witness for fear of his life. Here was no intimidation: here
was one witness obliged to come to the place of trial under pro.
tection of a troop of horse ; and another, the son of a man bar-
barously murdered, dared not give evidence against the mur.
derers of his father.—(Hear, hear.) After these facts, let the
Hon. Gentleman make out his case against the Solicitor-Gene-
ral if he could. Let him prove his statement about the Clonmel
trials; let him set forth his arguments before the people of
England, and then see if he can prove the law to have its full,
free, and impartial course.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RONAYNE denied tEat intimidation had anything to
do with the non-attendance of Jurors, which (we understood
him to observe) was a remissness of but too ordinary occurrence
in Ireland; out of 150 called, it was very rare to hear of fifty
having obeyed the call.
Mr. CALLAGHAN said lie had taken the earliest oppor-
tunity of stating his opinions upon the subject under discus.
sion. He must say that his Majesty's Ministers had given a
description of the state of Ireland that was not warranted by
the real state of things in that part of his Majesty's dominions.
With respect to the county of Cork, with which he was more
immediately connected, the grossest misrepresentations had
been made. On information similar to that on which his Ma-
jesty's Ministers were now about to act, the Government had
acted in the time of Lord Castlereagh. Questions had been
asked respecting the law which authorized the course of pro-
cedure with respect to Ireland. No statute could be adduced ;
but it was said by the Judges, that their course of proceeding
was law in all ages, that it was law before the existence of
statutes, This was but a poor defence. His Majesty's Mi•
sisters were acting upon false information. It had been repre-
sented that the Grand Juries did not do their duty.—(Hear.)

Instead of not being ready to convict in cases of disturbance of
the peace, they were, in fact, too ready. The object of all
parties in Ireland now was the repeal of the Union; and that
would continue to be their object so long as they could not re.
pose confidence in the Ministry. Ireland was not the country
to endure coercion, and those who had advised measures of that
nature were taking the most effectual means for widening the
breach between the two countries.
Mr. O'DWYER observed that the Right Hon. Gentleman
sir. Stanley) had brought no proof whatever of the allegations
which he had made respecting the state of Ireland.
Mr. STANLEY alluded to the trials at Clonmel. There were
some convictions on that occasion for the CroWn. In one case
there had been a slight anachronism in the speeches from the
opposition side. Allusion had bean made to the case of Mr.
Going, which occurred ten years ago, as if it had been a recent
transaction. The Right lion. Gentleman here used some
strong language respecting the conduct of the Opponents of the
Ministry.
An HUN. Mennen spoke in strong reprobation of the Metts
sures contemplated by his Majesty's Government.
Mr. CHARLES ED WARD STUART said, he would re.
quest the indulgence of the House for a few moments. A
great deal of virulence had been mixed up with the discussion,
and appeals had been made to the feelings of Englishmen ; bet
there was one feeling of Englishmen to which attention had not
been paid, and that was—the feeling which prevented all
Englishman from striking one whocouid net strike again. The
Opposition knew that his Majesty's Ministers Were precluded
by circumstances from premature discussion. For the tdvan.
tage of the subject, it was necessary that the law ahould be pa-
ramount; and any remissness in enforcing the laws was in fact
an attack upon the liberties of,the people.
Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL spoke in reprobation of the
measures of his Majesty's Government. He observed that the
remarks which had been made respecting the backwardness of
Jurors to come forward, was in a great measure founded in miss
take. It had been customary for the officers whose duty it was
to enforce attendance to excuse the parties for a fee of two shil-
lings or half a crown.
An Hon. MEMBER, whose name We could not learn, declared
that the south of Ireland was in a perfect state of peace, and
that there had been no difficulty there in obtaining convictions,
no intimidation of witnesses or jurors. For what purpose were
the oppressive measures proposed by his Majesty's Government
intended ? For the preservation of the system of tithes. Of
this, however, he was convinced, that as long as the tithe system
was continued, and as long as the tithes were levied by Peelers,
so :ong would be the Irish people in a state of dissatisfaction.
Ile had himself been a Catholic, he then became a Protestant,
and afterwards a Presbyterian. But while he was a Protestant
he never had had an opportunity of entering a church, he had
never seen a clergyman, he had never been able to go to prayers.
Why should tithe be paid by those who, as in his case, had
derived no benefit from it? There never was a country so ins
jured as that he came from. From the moment at which he
heard of the measures which his Majesty's Government intended
to introduce, he had not had a single night's rest. They pre-
tended to call their measures measures of security and pro-
tection. He could call them nothing but measures of degrada-
tion and humiliation.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
An HON. MEMBER (name unknown) professed to enter-
tain the best feelings towards Ireland, and had even heard with
great regret the attacks which had been levelled in so. cession
at the Lord Lieutenant, the Judges, the Clergy, and the Po-
lice. Those attacks argued badly for the persons by whom
they were made, as they showed that they suffered with diffi-
culty any kind of government.—(" Misgovernment," from an
Hon. Member.) At the same time he was ready to allow that
if his Majesty's Government had managed the powers already
'intrusted to them with discretion and vigour, no additional
powers would have been necessary. Ho would also say, that
a call for extraordinary powers came with a very bad grace
from the present Ministers, since it was well known that, for
the last fifty years, no Government in this country had been so
strong. An indisputable proof of that strength had been
shown in their having had the power to destroy the very House
of Commons which placed them on the Treasury Benches, in
their having had the power to control the House of Peers—in
their having obtained an authority front the highest personage
in the land, which they used for unconstitutional purposes.—
(Loud cries of " Order," and murmurs.) He repeated it,
that they had obtained an authority from the highest personage
in the land, which they used for unconstitutional purposes ;
from such Ministers a call for additional power came with a
very had grace. At the same time, looking at the state of Ire-
land, contemplating the midnight murders, the midnight as-
sassinations, the destruction of property of every description
in that unhappy country, he certainly thought that very strong
measures were necessary to restore it to tranquillity. Minis-
ters charged the other side of the House with agitation. But
did he not see on the Tseasury Bench a Noble Lord who had
himself unfurled the standard of agitation—who had spoken of
the conduct of the Parisians in the revolution of July, and of
the tricoloured flag with respect ? Did he not see behind the
Treasury Bench an Hon. Baronet who, when he was on the
other side of the House, was constantly bringing forward Mo-
tions of agitation ? How could his Majesty's Government
complain of agitation, when by their mismanagement they had
allowed the great agitator to escape after conviction ? He
would support his Majesty's Government, but he begged them
not to understand that they had his confidence.—(Great
laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear.")
Mr. HUME wished his Majesty's Ministers joy of their
supporter, whom they had just heard. He entered his protest
against the doctrine of the Noble Lord and the Right Hon.
Gentleman, that the time chosen for this discussion was in-
convenient and improper. This was the very time for such
a discussion. When the House of Commons was called upon
to vote away the public money, that was the time at which to
consider whether those who were to have the management of
the grant were entitled to confidence. He must say that he
never witnessed a more humiliating spectacle than the situa-
tion of the lion. Gentlemen opposite. No men in England

ever stood in so disgraceful a position. Having changed sides
in the House, there was only one man on that side who had
not changed his opinion, and who still maintained the senti.

ments which he had always professed. The present was not an
Irish question alone—it was one of immense importance
to the people of this country. He was convinced that no.
thing could thoroughly remedy the existing evils in Ire.
land, but the destruction of that which had ever been
the curse of Ireland ; and that the entire removal of the
Church Establishment in that country was indispensable to the
restoration of its tranquillity. What had been said by an Hon.
Member was perfectly true; namely, that the people of Eng-
land were now called upon to wage war with the people of Ire-
land for the sake of the Church Establishment. For that pur.
pose Parliament was required to place eight millions of people
under military rule, and out of the protection of the law. He
asked the people of England to look to themselves. The pro-
posed measure was calculated to keep up the estimates. Not
a single man of our large military establishments could be re.
duced. The Government would wapt all the force they could
procure. The opinions which he was now expressing were
not the opinions of yesterday. He had stated them when
the subject was less a matter of importance to England. He
had then declared that the Irish had always been kept in the
condition of a conquered people; that civil war had been
promoted—that civil rights had been denied; and all for the
maintenanceof that which was the great blot in the institutions
of Ireland—the Church Establishment.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had not intended to address the
House, but in consequence of the extraordinary and very vio.
lent attacks which had been made upon his Majesty's Ministers
by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he begged leave to say a
few words. The Hon. Member for Middlesex talked of the
change of opinion on his (Lord John Russell's) side of the
House. He for one, and he was sure on that part he might
also answer for his Hon. Friends near him, was not conscious
of any change of opinion. No man, when he pretended to
consistency, did more than state that the line of conduct which
he pursued was consistent with regard to the object he had in
view. The Hon. Member for Middlesex said the object which
he had in view, was the total destruction of the Church. Esta-
blishment of Ireland. -Now, that was an object which, neither
he (Lord John Russell) nor bis Noble Friend near bim ever
hid in view.' What. right- thanhad the Hon. Member for Mid-
dle.sex to'call themin6;onsistent ? In the course of the debate
an Hon. Member had done him the honour to refer to a speech
of his, in which he had characterized the Insurrection Act at
that time proposed, as a measure of oppression and injustice.
1 But if that Hon. Member would refer to the beginning of the
speech, he would find that he (Lord John Russell) had said
that there were circumstances in which he should consider
the Insurrection Act in Ireland necessary. As a proof of
this, the Insurrection Act had been introduced several times,
and he had never opposed it. But on the occasion to
which the Honourable Gentleman had alluded, he had
maintained that, according to the evidence before the
House, the Insurrection Act was not necessary—(Hear)—
and being an enemy to any measure of extraordinary vigour,
unless justified by necessity, he on that occasion opposed it. But
was it to be maintained, that because he opposed it on that oc-
casion, he was precluded from supporting it on an occasion
when the circumstances of the case were entirely different?
' Although in 1824 he opposed a measure because he considered
it unnecessary, he was surely not liable to the charge of incon-
sistency, if, in 1833, and under different circumstances, he sup.
ported the same measure, considering it to be, as his Noble
Friend had termed it, the least of two evils—a measure which,
while it caused a temporary, suspension of liberty, was calcu.
lated to restore that public peace which was the foundation of
all liberty, Whenever he had been the advocate for religious
liberty, with reference even to this country or to Ireland, he
meant a religious liberty equal to all. He never meant that
any portion of the people should be deprived, for the sake of any
other portion, of the power of acting according to their own
discretion ; he never meant that the Protestant who in his
conscience thought it his duty to pay tithes to the Protestant
clergyman, ought to have nis life threatened, and his house
burned for his opinion. Without inconsistency, therefore, he
might support the measures now proposed with respect to Ire..
land. He wholly denied that the argument of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex had the slightest basis ; .and he hoped
that that Hon. Gentleman would not again indulge in a strain
so unbecoming to him, but would confine himself to those
economical speculations so peculiarly suited to the character of
his mind. The Hon. Member reminded him of one of the
heroes in the " Dunciad," who, having—
.,
--- climbed a stranded ghter's height,
Shot to the black abyss, and lungpd downright,
The serious judgment all the crowd. admire;
Who, but to sink the deeper, rose the higher."
Mr. FINN observed, that he had opposed the Insurrection
Act in 1824, because there was no evidence of its necessity ;
yet now, without a tittle of evidence whatever, the Noble Lord
was, it seems, prepared to approve not only of the .Insurrection
Act, but of other measiires of still greater severity. No one
ss ould deny that the tithes, in Ireland were a grrat evil, and
that those who received them, whether magistrates or clergy.

/ ,

men, exposed themselves to universal execration. The con-
duct of his Majesty's Goverin, of on this subject had pro-
voked the people of Ireland. The Noble Secretary of State,
in the other House, had talked, last Session, of the extinc-
tion of tithes, and the Irish people, taking him at his
word, had supposed that some proposition to that effect
would be made. It was now, however, generally believed
in Ireland that his Majesty's Government had viewed anti_
tithe meetings with a favourable eye, because those meetings
alii,rded them a pretext for the odious measures which they
were now submitting to Parliament. What was the real
o!ij,et of those measures ? To put down the robber and the
murderer ?—No I to collect tithes at the point of the bayonet
- • -fa put down what, he trusted, they never would put down-- -
popular freedom in Ireland. The English Government had
long tried to pia down the Catholic religion in Ireland. Had
they succeeded ? And did they think they could eradicate poli.
tics), more easily than religious opinions? On the contrary, the
more they opposed, the more they would confirm those opi-
nions. It was human nature. There was no more drivelling
poney that] to attempt, by violent and tyrannical measures, to
change opinions. He felt it his duty to express his execration
of the measures proposed by his Majesty's Government. They
were about to break the last link which united Ireland to Eng-
land. They cherished liberty for themselves, but they thought
the Irish people not worthy of it. When they taunted the
Irish people with being corrupt, they ought to recollect that
it was English gold and English policy that had effected that
corruption. From 178.2 to 1792, no country could be making so
rapid a progress in arts and arms as Ireland ; but then England
.gain asserted her power, put Ireland under foot, and destroyed
hef Independence. God only knew what might be the result of
the measures now proposed. He deeply deprecated and deplored
them. The Irish people would never consider the English
people in any other light than as their equals. They would
never submit to insolent domination. What right had the
English to attempt it ? The Irish people admitted that the
English were their equals, but they would never admit their
inferiority. Any attempt to assert it would have no other
effect than to generate that immortal hatred and that uncon..
querable aversion with which tyrants were always regarded.
The resolutions of the report of the Committee of Supply
were then read and agreed to.

Mr. ROEBUCK moved a resolution, "That it is highly cri,
foinal in any Minister or Ministers, or other servants under the:
Crown of Great Britain and Ireland, directly or indirectly to
use the powers of office in the election of representatives to
serve in Parliament, and an attempt at such influence will at
all times be resented by this House as aimed at its honour,
dignity, and independency—as an infringement of the dearest
rights of every subject throughout the empire, and tending to
sap the basis of this free and happy Constitution."
Lord ALTHORP said there could be no doubt of the truth
of the Hon. Member's resolution. But it would be very un-
usual in that House to affirm such a resolution, without some
ca,e being made out that his Majesty's Ministers had so used
or abused their powers. The Hon, Gentleman had not stated
that such was the case. As an abstract proposition, certainly
it was impossible to deny the truth of his resolution.
Mr. WARBURTON recommended the Hon. Member for
Bath, if he thought he could make out a case, to withdraw his
motion for the present.

Mr. ROEBUCK said he thought he could do so, and, there-
fore, he would adopt the suggestion of the Hon. Member for
Bridport.

Mr. SHAW moved for returns of offences against the law,
committed in Ireland, in the years and 1832, so far as,
those returns could be made out by the Irish Government.—
Agreed to,

The House then adjourned at a quarter to one.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEmtuear 18.

The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at five o'clock.
The Earl of CAWDOR presented two petitions from
flaverfordweat, and two from Milford, praying for the
abolition of slavery.
Lord ELLEN BOROUGH said, he was about to move for
seine returns, but if the Noble Lord opposite had any ob-
jection to their being produced, he would not press it. A
retw n had been laid on their Lordships' table that morn-
ing, made by the chief constable of Ireland, of all out-
rages committed within their bailiwicks up to June, 1832,
He wished to move their Lordships that a similar return
ps'i'ees7onti3sl;j:t:t:inffioft{iintthie-.
'•e. laid before !heir Lordships, made up to the la'est period.
ni4h:o ago, many
dEu
ara
nR,,g,Eb
'!ha ds
aheied but,ht
da described
ercri obttelidl) de a
few
persons who had suffered from thoe outrages prekrrei to
intention n)
w,tyiho
itne,
ehtfoohrdeee
nl
taohyweti hrberLoßoui Bill whichlil:t,..hanredth.i
-diff,r in silence, instead of making it known, on account
of the risk they would have run. He hoped that the
Nob
ead
gechtLt: ibtr)d.h
hisaeddmnu tooy
subj
Lord ELLENBOROUGH had no intention whatever
of impeding the progress of the Bill introduced by e
Noble Earl, The returns which he moved for was all
he evidence upon which their Lordships could
ii.ree to such a Bill as that was; therefore he
regretted that his Majesty's Ministers had not thought
it their duty to lay the Bill on the table on the first
,!ay of the session, or that they bad not, at all events,
laid the evidence upon which they hid introduced such
measure before their Lordships at that early period.
A measure of that importance ought nut to he passed
without the fullest consideration. If there were no ob-
jection to his motion he would then move it.
Viscount MELBOURNE sail he had not the
s!ightest objection to the production of the information re-
quired by the Noble Barron. The Noble Lord would
see, that in the present stare of Ireland it would require
sotne consideration as to giving the names of those in-
dividuals upon whom outrages had been committed.—
(Hear.) It would be necessary not only to omit names,
but kcalities, in order that persons might not be pointed
out for further vengeance.
Lord ELLEN BOROUGH said there would be no dif-
fio.ulty in the case, for be did not wish for names ; all
that he called for was a statement of facts.

The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that, of his own
knowledge, he could bear testimony to the statement of the
Noble Eat! (Grey) that at present such a return as was
called for could not satisfactorily be made; it must be
very inaccurate.
Earl GREY did not expect that in that House lag

should have met with any opposition to that measure;
which his duty had forced him to introduce ; least of all,
upon the part of those who bad been most anxious for such
measure. As he said before, he saw no objection to the
production of t'.e rsturns, but he sincerely trusted that it
would tisrow no impediment in the way of, or delay that
measure, which in sincerity be believed was necessary fur
the safety of Ireland. The Noble Baron founded hi•
motion upon the assumption that these returns
acre necessary before that Bill ought to he agreed
to, because it was a strong one. One of the reasons why
that Bill was so strong was that it might be effectual.
When he passed the limits of the C institution he thought
that strong measures were rt quisize in order that they might
be effectual, and that the necessity for them might be short.
If • did not expect that any delay would be thrown in the
way of the Bill by means of that motion.

Lord ELLENi3OROUGH would only say he was sorry
the Noble Earl had not laid on the table of the House such
n,F,rmation as would have rendered his motion unnecessary.
He did justice to the feelings of the N.,ble Earl, because
1.0 believed he must have felt great pain in bringiii for.
waid such a strong measure. It was bacri6c,ng the whole
of the Noble Earl's former political feelings; therefore he
was perfectly aware it must have co,t the Noble Earl much
painful feeling before he could bi iog himself to introduce
such severe measures.—The motion was then agreed to,
.nd the returns ordered.

Lord COLVILLE postponed his motion for the reap-
ointment of the Select Committee on the state of the

West India Colunics from Thursday, Feb. 21, to Tues-
day, Feb. 26

Mr. BERNAL, and others from the Commons,
brought up a copy of the report made by the Committee
appointed to inquire into the Factory system.
Lord TEYNHAM moved that the report might be
p. inted. His Lordship also gave notice that un the
ht of next month he would introduce a Bill the object
of which would be to have inspectors and guardians
appointed of the children employed in factories, justice
culling aloud upon the House for some measure to prevent
a continuation of the present demoralizing and injurious
e ifcct of the system.
Lord ELLENBOROIJGH begged to call the attention
o: the House to the great. expense attending the printing
of separate reports of this sort. Be thought the double
,xpeme of printing reports in both Houses might be
avoided.

Earl GREY thought there was a great deal of good
,rose in the Noble Lord's observations. The suliect had
Icon under the consideration of a Noble Friend in

tine other House, who had in contemp;ion the
proposdl of some plan in order to remedy the enormous
vxpense attending•on the present occasion.
IRISH COERCIVE BILL.

Earl GREY moved the order of the day for the second
r:-ailing of this Bill.
Lord WICKLOW could not allow this Bill to pans a
,eeood reading without making a few observations. Ile
hogged to be understood, however, as not about to offer
ilte slightest opposition to the measure; on the contrary,
:rom his experience of the state of Ireland, he could
a•-sure the House that the mad and melancholy picture
which had been drawn of Ireland the other night by the
Noble Earl (Grry) was not overstrained, and any
measure which could be calculated to relieve that
unhappy country from the state of degradation to
hich it was reduced—a state that rendered it do•graoe-
fill to the civilized world, nay, that would be considered
a disgrace in the eye of the savage or the inhabit:J:l:s
the Sandwich Islands would have his most cordial
aupport.—(Hear, hear, hear.) To the No4le Lords