The Sun.
London, England, 1856-03-11 00:00:00

BALTIC MORTARS.

The Earl of DERBY gave notice that he would, to-
morrow, put a-question to the noble lord at the head of
the War Department on the subject of the gross frauds
practised in the supply of mortars to the Government.
He had intended to put the question to-night, but, as
the noble earl was not in his place, he would defer it till
to-morrow.

LEGAL MEASURES OF THE GOVERNMENT.

Lord ST. LEONARDS said that, before their lord-
ships proceeded to consider in committee the Leases and
Sales of Settled Estates Bills, he wished to call attention
to the legal measures proposed by the Government with
respect to England and Ireland, and to the administra-
tion of justice in both countries. He would confine his ob-
servations within the narrowest possible limits, but he as-
sured their lordships that few subjects of greater import-
ance could be brought under the attention of Parliament.
He proposed, in the first instance, to call attention to
the present power of the Court of Chancery in Eng-
land. The Court of Chancery consisted of the Lord
Chancellor, the Court of Appeal (conducted by the two
Lords Justices), the Master of the Rolls, and three
Vice-Chancellors. The Lord Chancellor and the Master
of the Rolls had an independent jurisdiction, and sat
alone. Since the year 1852 the business of the Court
of Chancery had been put upon a new and very differ-
ent footing to that which ruled in former times. The
present system had been introduced at a very great
cost to the country. The principal alteration made was,
the abolition• (of the Master's-offices ; and this having
been accomplished at a very large outlay of public
money, the judges of those courts—the three Vice-
Chancellors and the Master of the Rolls—bad to exer-
cise jurisdiction in every case, from its beginning to its
final termination. So that, instead of having masters
in different !offices with a certain independent jurisdic-
tion, the judges had a chief clerk (a very competent
person, with a competent salary) and clerks under him,
who were in constant communication with the Court,
and transacted in a more satisfactory manner the fund-
tions formerly discharged by the masters. The whole
working, however, of this system, which had cost so
much, depended upon not overworking any of those
courts. If those courts were once worked so that the
chief clerk could not have everything under his immedi-
ate superintendence, the rsischief of the Master's-office
would be revived, and all the advantages would be lost
for which the public had paid so high a price. In every
one of those courts there were two jurisdictions—one a
contentious jurisdiction to deeide rights between man
and wife, and the other simply an administrative juris-
diction, such as providing, guarding, appointing trusteer,
distributing funds, &c. In this state of things the bill
entered in their lordships' paper for discussion that night
bad been introduced by his noble friend. They all knew
how tender the law was to interfere with the rights of
property. By the law of England a man might dispose
of his property in any way be pleaeed, while it insured
that there should always be large estates with proper
dignities attached. No court of justice had the power
to alter a rime's contrary to what appeared to be his
meaning and intention. In consequence of this a person
who wished to alter a will had no remedy hut to apply
to their lordship' house, for there was no other relief to
which he was entitled. The present measure was a great
inroad upon the law of property, for it gave a power to
sell estates, notwithstanding that there was no power
in the testator's will either to sell or exchange them.
This measure was proposed to extend to both England
and Ireland. He would, however, request his noble
and learned friend (the Lerd Chancellor) to postpone the
bill, and not endeavour to carry it through that house
until the Court of Chancery (Ireland) Bill, which was
before the lower house, had been legislated upon. Under
the provisions of the bill before their lordships, it was
proposed to grant power for the sale of certain estates
in Ireland. He need, however, hardly inform their
lordship that, if the measure before the other house
were carried, no one would have recourse to the
present bill, as the former measure was so infinitely
before it in beneficial operation. The bill Mere
the lower house possessed manifest adeania;ee. It
empoWered the Court of Chancery in Ireland to sell
estates, granting with such sales a Parliamentary title.
The bill before their lordships would give no title at al!,
and it would be folly to suppose that, under these cir-
cumstances, it would affect Ireland at all. In convection
with this question, it was quite impossible to lose sight
of what had been proposed by her Majesty's Govern-
ment in regard to the Court of Chancery iii Ireland, for
he (Lord St. Leenarde) held the extension sooner or
later to EugTand of any merire which was found emi-
nently advantageous to Ireland quite inevitable ; and he
might also add that any measure which worked benefi-
cially for this country must ultimately be granted to Ire-
land. This remark did net refer to tie Encumbered

Estates Court as orighally granted to Ireland—that
was an exceptional piece et legislation, expressly
intended to meet a very exceptional case. It would
not, perhaps, have faded from their lordships' recol-
lection, that when that bill (the Encumbered Estates
Bid) was first brought before them he had remarked
upon it tyat it was to property what the suspen-
sion of t e abeas corpus'wes to personal lib:rty ; it was,
as he had before remarked, intended t miet a most
exceptional case, and he had no hesitation in adding that
it bed worked the salvation.cf Ireland. There wa-, it ap-
peared to him, a want of concert between the members
of her Majesty's Goverement in that and the otherllouse
of Parliament, and between the Irish and the English
branches, which was much to be re gretted, as it was
calculated to lead to4Llll,ult.e; in legislation that, wi
out due care, would involve the two couniriee in hreat
difficulties. He prayed their lordships particularly to re-
mark what was proposed in reference to Ireland. It was
proposed that every owner of an estate in Ireland might
go to the Court of Chancery and desire that Court to sell
his lands, encumbered or unerecurnbered, settled or not
settled, and upon that sale to give a Parliamentary title.
The result of such provision would be that a man v. ho
had encumbered his estate might sell it at once without
any difficulty, whereas the man who had been careful
hal to go through all the trouble end expense of search-
iug and establishing his title. Could such a power be
granted to Ireland and denied to Engian :I If the bill
passed, the Court of Chancery in Ireland would become
the agent for the sale of the estates of every man in Ire-
land. (Hear.) No man would purchase without a Par-
liamentary title, when the seller could make over one to
him by going to the Court of Chancery. He must again
repeat that he was quite satisfied the measure would ulti-
mately have to be extended to England, for English pro-
perty was already at some disadvantage, on account of
the Parliamentary title granted to Irish landowners. It,
however, these advantages were thrown into the hands of
the Court of Chancery in England,together with the duties
which devolved upon that court in connection with eccle-
siastical jurisdiction, that court, as at present consti-
tuted, would inevitably and hopelessly break down, and
all the trouble and legislation which it had caused in
1852 would prove to have been to no purpose. There
were other powers given by several Acts of Parliament,
,which required the best attention—powere given to
persons of limited interests in property to dispose of that
property for the benefit of private companies. There was,
too, he was sorry to say, a great tendency upon the part
of tenants for life, and others having limited interests, to
throw the whole expense of the, drainage and improve-
ment of their estates upon the remainderman. Expenses
were thus thrown upon the corpus which should properly
be borne by the tenant in possession fur the time being,
and he I(Lord St. Leonards) felt convinced that, with
regard to the bill which had called forth these remarks,
its effect would be to cause many settled estates to be
greatly encumbered, welch, without that bill, would
have descended unfettered to the settlers' children, and
others entitled tinder the settlement, and thus have ena-
bled them to maintain those stations in life which the set-
tlers' positions might have entitled them to expect. With
respect to the changes proposed by Government in regard
to the Court of Chancery in Ireland, it should be re-
membered that that court had been reformed in 1850.
although it was not until 1852 that the English Court of
Chancery had been reformed. At that time there were,
in fact, only four masters in all. These four masters,
by the Act of 1850, were, in point of effect, turned
into vice-chanc Dors, having, with their clerks, power
to transact chamber business, just as in the same way
as in this country the chief clerks of the Master of the
Rolls and of the Vice-Chancellor, with the assistance of
their clerks, transacted chamber business. The business
which it was necessary to carry on in open court was
carried on by the Lord Chancellor and the Master of the
Rolls, and in thetransaction of that business they wanted
_
no aid or additional assistance. The administration of

real and personal estates, questions relating to the fore.
cicenre and redemption of mortgaged estates, as to the.
appointment of new trustees, and also to all partnership
transactions, with many other matters, were ail subject
to an appeal, disposed of in the Masters'-office, to which
the Lord Chancellor and Mester of the Rolls, by 'an
order, had also power to direct ether. matters to be
sent. That system worked well, and wanted no chances,.
There were three commissioners of the Encumbered Es.
tates Court. In a comparatively short time the powers of
that court would expire. But the intention of the Go-
vernment no ,v was to provide that it should, in a new
form, endure for ever, with largely extended powers, em-
bracing the whole of the landed property of Ireland. It
was proposed to abolish the Encumbered Estate Courts;
to abolish the roasters altogether; to appoint two vice-
chancellors with chief clerks, and to give a chief clerk
to the Master of the Rolls, and then to transfer the bu-
siness of the Encumbered Estates Court to the Court of
Chancery, with great additional powers. There never
was a scheme more likely to break down than that.
Surely the Encumbered Estates Court ought to be
allowed to get through its own arrears, and the latter
ought not to be transferred to the Court of Chancery.
When those arrears bad been disposed of. then, if it
was thought advisable to continue the scheme of a Par-
liamentary title, the future business of the Encum-
bered Estates Court might be transferred to the Court
cf Chancery, but no orrears on any account should
be PO transferred. The Master of the Rolls in Ire-
land—a most able an I painstaking judge. and one who
always devoted his whole energies to the performance
of his duties—hail strongly deprecated the pro.
posed measure, and said that if it passed it would
entirely paralyse all his energies. The report of the
commissioners, though drawn up by very able and
learned men, was in many respects open to objection.
There could be no necessity for i-ne new court of appeal
being instituted in Ireland. The appetite jurisdiction
was there exercised by the Lord Chancellor, to whom an
appeal was brought from the Master of the Rolls. He
(Lord St. Leonards) bad held the office of Lord Chan-
cellor of Ireland for five years, and during that period
had decided many most important questions, and had
never known any complaiet rah ed about the Court of
Appeal. It was proposed, however, that in order to
make a new court cf appeal, there should be an ex-
Chancellor added to the Lord Chancellor, if one could
be found, and, if not, a common law judge ; and, if
neither could be found, then that a new judge should
be created to hold office during pleasure. He thought
that no judge should ever be called upon to sit in a court
of appeal during the pleasure of the Crown. Such a sys-
tem, if acted upon in this country, would be most ob-
jectionable. Na common law judge could strengthen the
Lord Chancellor in his own court of appeal. It would
be a most objectionable thing that a common law judge
should have the power of deciding against the Lord
Chancellor upon matters of equity in his own court.
There was also another point deserving of attention. It
was proposed that the fees and duties which had been
hitherto paid should be abolished, and that the charge
should be imposed on the Consolidated Fund. This was
a national question, an imperial question, and one which
regarded the Courts of England as well as the Courts of
Ireland. If persons were to obtain the benefit of a Par•
liamentary title to the estates they purchased, by the in-
tervention of the Court of Chancery, it became a ques-
tion whether they ought not to he subjected to a rea-
sonable charge for the benefit they 60 obtained. It
was a question in what respect they ought to reduce
the fees and duties in courts of justice, and what were
the fair and necessary expenses of the administration of
justice in the abstract. He admitted that they ought
not to tax the administration of justice, but the ques-
tion of fees and duties to be paid for the administrative
jurisdiction exercised for private purposes was a very dif-
ferent matter. He had already adverted to the alteration
made in the practice of the Court of Chancery in Ireland
in 1850, and it was from an anxious desire that that eye-
ten', which had hitherto worked so well and so much to
the satisfaction of the suitors, might be contiened, that he
had been induced to make these remarks. He certainly
had expected that, long before this, the Masters of the
Court would have been able to close their offices with re-
gard to the arrears. They had already given the'Mastera
most ample powers in order to enable them to wind up
the arrears, but such powers had not been able to effect
thet of ject.

The -LORD CHANCELLOR said that although the
house was always ready to listen to the noble and learned
lord on subjects such as the present, yet be must say that
he thought a large portion of what his noble and learned
friend had been stating was extremely inapplicable to the
subject before their lordships. He was surprised that, at
nearly the last stage of this bill, they should be milled
upon to dii:Cuss the merits of another bill which was
in the other House of Parliament. The present measure
was introduced by him (the Lord Chancellor) for the
purpose of obviating the great expense and delay which
had hitherto prevailed in that house with respect to pri-
vate bills to enable parties to lease and sell settled estates.
In fact the bill gave the Court of Chancery the power
of doing, cheaply and expeditiously, that which was done
at present by that houseat a very heavy and unnecessary
co,t. Such was the sole object of this bill. When it
was first introduced its provisions were confined to Eng.
land only. His attention having been called to the fact
that it was important the treasure should be extended
to Ireland, he teri caused the bill to be iatered and made
app ietahle to Ireland as well as England. The noble and
ned lord seemed to think that this bill would ever en-
cumber the judges and others connected with the Chan-
cery in England, but he (the Lord Chancellor) really
thought his noble and learned friend was ratherchimerical,
It seemed to him that, unless they were determined not
to have the powers given by the bill, from some appree
heesion of interfering with the state of settled pro-
perty, they were pei f et'y tale in leaving such prapt rty
in the hands of C etrieery. With regard to the extension
of the present measure to Ireland, the only argument be
had heard which might raise a doubt as to whether it
was applicable to that country was, that in the other
house of Parliament the Government bad introduced a
raeasure for extending the provisions of the Encumbered
Estates Court to all estates, whether encumbered or un-
incurubt red. He bold it to be a childish legislation to Fay
that they should net pass a measure with a view to-
wards extending it to Leland, because there might be,
at the end of the session another measure which would
render the first use 1 se. He thought it would be wise to
pass the preterit measure, which could not possibly do
any harm. Ile must confess that ha felt some difficulty
in following the noble and learned lord in his discussion
about the merits or demerits of a measure which was re-
ferred to a seleet committee in the other House of Par-
liament, acid which might never come before their lord-
ships. It was asked, Why not extent the Encumbered
Estates Court Bill to England ? But in Ireland they
had a general registry of estates; which did not exist in
England, and the absence of which he (the Lord Chan-
cellor) greatly lamented. It was impossible to follow
hie noble and learned friend into details which were not
before their lordship., and, therefore, be should simply
c intent himself with repeating the terms of his motion,
tint t'lis bill be committed.

The bill th =n passed the ugh committee.
Upon the mcniin of Viscount DUNGANNON, a re•
turn was ordered of all persons now appointed to act as
justices of the peace in the several counties in Ireland,
the number of stipendiary nnwistrates located is each
cf.unty, and the several sessional divisions.
Their lordships adjourned at 7 o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER t3Ok the chair at the usual hour.
NEW MEMBER.

Mr. H. INGRAM took the oaths and his seat for
B .ston.

Sir J. TROLLOPS presented a petition frnna Spald-
inr.r, against the recommendations of the Charity Corn-
miesionelP.

Sir J. GRAII3'.NI presented a petition from Car Hale
n favour of medical reform.

Mr. SCHOLEFIEL f) presented a petition from Bir.
mingham against the Police Bill.
Several petitions were presented against the abolition
of Church rates until an equivalent had been provided,
and also against the opening of the British Museum and
National Gallery on Sundays.
Mr. WILSON brou4ht up the Navy Estimates.
MORTALITY IN THE CRIMEA..
Viscount EBRINGTON gave notice that on an early
day lie should move a resolution to the effect that the
excessive mortality in the Crimea had
:been occasioned
through bad sanitary regulations.
OUR RELATIONS WITH AMERICA.
Sir E. B. LYTTON gave notice that immediately
after the Easter recoaq he should call the attention of
the house to the state of our relations with America.
LORD PANMURE'S DESPATCH.
Sir DE L. EVANS said, in consequence of a state-
ment that had appeared that the Government would
have no objection to lay on the table of the house a copy
of the despatch to which ho had referred, and also that
the despatch would be found highly creditable to Lord
Panmure, he begged to ask her Majesty's Government
whether there would be any objection to its production
Lord PALMERSTON said he held in his hand a copy
of the telegraphic despatch to which the gallant member
had referred. The despatch was a long one, and con-
tained matters that it would not be prudent to make
public. The hon. and gallant member could, however,
himself see it. The words of Lord Panmuro relating
to Captain Dowbiggin were "I recommend young Dow,:
biggin to your attention, if fit, and you have a vacancy.
CHURCH RATES.
Sir J. PAKINGTON asked whether, as they bad
read the bill for the abolition of Church rates a second
time, there would be any objection to order returns to
be made of bow much hod been received from Church
rates from certain parishes for the last ten years ? In•
formation was greatly wanted on the subject.
Sir GEORGE GREY said a return similar to that
now asked for by the honourable baronet bad
been made some time ago. The return in question took
a considerable time in preparing in consequence of the
Government possessing no power to compel the parishes
to make the returns wanted. If the returns would not
meet the view of the hon. member, he would have no
objection to an appendix to it being made, and at the
same time an endeavour would be made to obtain the
information asked for.
ST. PANCRAS WORKHOUSE.
Sir J. PAKINGTON asked the President of the
Poor-Law Board what steps had been taken to carry out
the report of D. Jones with respect to the state of St.
Pancras Workhouse ?
Mr. BOUVERIE said he bad directed the report in
question to be transmitted to the managers of the poor o.
St. Pancras. That body had since been changed by
their local acts, but active steps were now being taken
to ameliorate the condition of the inmates and improve
the workhouse of the parish of St. Pancras.
POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS WITH SPAIN.

In reply to a question from Mr. OLIVEIRA,
Mr. WILSON said that negotiations were in pro!