The Sun.
London, England, 1851-04-01 00:00:00

Plr'lls 3114 Privat". Bat thnr nnjlyorl the. b -neat of a
" - •'-

• , • Pai
they euhleat to bey° in cesepeileon w1:11 Lad C
and privates, those advantages counterbalanced tae
reduction. In his opinion, therefore. that complaint
was not well founded. But it was said that sergeants
not only did not get good-service money, but that if
for any reason they were reduced to the ranks they
were not entitled to the good-service allowance, while
the same rule did not apply to corporals. In that re-
spect he admitted that the sergeants had some ground
of complaint, and he proposed to make some improve-
ment in the system. There was another point, also, on
which he thought the sergeants had a right to complain.
A sergeant could not retire on a pension as sergeant Un-
less he had for three years filled that rank. Now the
number of sergeants who had served for less than three
years in that rank was very inconsiderable, and he was
not disposed to deprive the few who might so retire of
the right to the usual pension of their comrades.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he thought that offieers
of the line laboured under one manifest disadvantage as
compared with officers of the Guards. It had been re-
peatedly stated by the highest authorities before Com-
mittees of that House, that the higher ranks. of the army
were obtained in the Guards in about eight or ten years
less2o yea time'
than in the line; so that on an average about
valent rs service on the banks of the Thames was equi-
to 30 years service on the banks of the Sutlej.—
(fear, hear.)
In hisi Opinion there was a real griev-
ance in that case,
pliainnediL that Fnried
the more in proportion to its numbers than any other
army
Britishthe
La‘nir m b rfor
Montrose had comcost
in the world- Now, there was no doubt but it was a
costly army; but it should be remembered that it was
Subject to many expenses which were unknown in the ar-
mies of other countries, and that no other army went
through anything like the same amount of work. The
practice of purchasing commissions was a heavy charge
on the British officers. He could pledge himself to the
Rouse that the amount of money they
s
near 10,000,0001. He had always opposed the systemof
Purchasing commissions,
but it should be acknowledged
that it was an economical one for the country. Under
thatsystem officers sold theircommissions to other officers,
and the public was by that means saved the charge of
many a pension.
Sir H. VERNEY said that offi:ers of the Guards were
not always men who led inactive lives. Colonel Mackin-
non, who was at present entrusted with so important a
command at Kafraria, was one of those officers. He did
not deny that officers in the Guards obtained promotion
more rapidly than officers in the line, but the latter
officers did not complain of that. With regard to the ex-
Penns of the two kinds of service, he should observe
that a return had been made out some years ago of the
cost of maintaining 1,200 men in the line, and 1,200
men in the Guards; and he believed, that if that return
were produced, it would be seen from it that there was
bat a very slight difference between the two charges.
for-
s.
Mr. GRENVILLE BERKELEY said that, a
for-
mer officer of the line, he could say he that he believed
there was not the slightest jealousy between the line and
the Guards.
After a few words from Col. CHATTERTON, which
Were not distinctly heard in the gallery,
Mr. HENLEY said he believed the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Secretary at War would find, on further ex-
amination, that the sum of 9,6001., to which he had
already referred, was included in the sum of 94,9611.,
Which the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated as the
in
in the savings banks. It certainly appeared so
In the return which had been signed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman himself. He could not, however, tell how
far that fact would affect the number of depositors; but
the Right Hon. Gentleman would probably give them
some information upon that point on some future
occasion.
Mr. HUME said that the statements which had been
made with respect to the position of the different corps
showed that the Government ought to take the matter
into their hands with a view to place it on a more satis-
factory footing. Another point to which he should
direct the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman was
the cost of the recruiting system, which at present
amounted to more than 100,0001. It had been proved
before the Committee up-stairs that that sum might be
reduced by one-half if recruiting were left in the hands
of the officers of the pensioner corps.
Mr. F. MAULE said that he had not yet made up his
Mind as to the policy of transferring the recruiting sys-
tem to the pensioner corps. The matter was still under
his consideration.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he had been happy to
'lave heard that there had of late years been a decided
improvement in the sanitary condition of our troops. He I
was afraid, however, that nothing had yet been done to
render the condition of the barracks at Barbadoes less
unhealthy than it had been. A dreadful mortality had
taken place two years ago in Barbadoes, and that mar.
tality wile distinctly traceable to the barracks. He
trusted that the Right Hon. Gentleman would endeavour
to rectify that evil.
The Committee then divided, and the numbers were— For the amendment ••• '•• 31
Against it .. 135
Majority against the amendment 104
On
our return to the gallery we found
Mr. W. WILLIAMS complaining of various charges
and allowances for the maintenance of the Guards.
Among other items, there was a table allowance of 5,0041.
for the officers on duty at St. James's. There wore two
breakfasts provided for those officers, one at nine and the
other at eleven o'clock. There was also a dinner pro-
vided for them at seven o'clock, with an unlimited
supply of port and sherry and claret from the period of
the removal of the cloth until ten o'clock. There were
1.308 men in the Guards, and in the two first regiments
of Dragoons, which he found in the Army List—namely,
the Dragoon Guards and the Light Dragoons, there were
1,302; but to the 1,308 men in the Guards there were
96 officers, while to the 1,302 men in those regiments of
Dragoons there were only 80 officers. There was a still
greater difference between the number of non-commis-
aioned officers in the two cases. In the case of the Guards
the number of those officers was 159, while the number
In the case of the Dragoon regiments was only 110. Then
again, under the head of allowances to field officers, cap-
tains, riding-masters, and farriers, the allowance in the
Guards was 6,4481., while in the two Dragoon regiments
the allowance was only 3,026/ And again, for clothing,
the charge in the Guards was 10,3921., while in the two
Dragoon regiments the charge was only 5,2871. The
allowances for 5,260 officers in the Guards amounted to
20,737/., whilst those of the Ist, 3d, sth, 7th, and 13th
'Regiments of the line, embracing 5,678 officers, or 118
More than those in the Guards, amounted only to 1,990/ In the clothing there was a corresponding increase, so
that, in point of fact, if the costs of the Guards were
treclaced to the level of the line regiments, they would
be able to add 2,880 men to the strength of the army,
or to save a proportionate amount of expenditure. All
this was kept up for the sake of the aristocracy or their
immediate connexions.—(A laugh.) He proposed to re-
duce the vote l 81,1521.
Mr. F. MAULE bad hoped, after the discussion which
taken place on the comparative merits of the Guards and
the line, that the Committee would not have been called
upon to enter again upon that vexed question. He cer-
tainly had never heard any complaints made by officers
in the line of the inequalities to which the Hon. Mem-
ber had referred. These exclusive privileges had be-
longed to the Guards for many years, and were well
known to all who were entering the army. The allow-
ance for the guard at St. James's Palace had been the
reibiect of inquiry before Committees, who, neverthe-
iBS'had not recommended its discontinuance. This,
Guare, was not a privilege exclusively enjoyed by the
d
.4, but was shared by any other troops which hap,
Peoed to be there. In Dublin the same allowance. was
re? taint,do and he (Mr. F. Maul(?) in his evidence had cer-
Y recommended that both should be retained.
Colonel DUNNE said his objection was not to the pay
(I Guards, but to their advantages in the way of
Promotion ; and if the Hon. Member for Lambeth
vould have limited his amendment to that object, he
Would have given it his support. He trusted, however,
that the public feeling would ultimately put an end to
the abuse.
Mr. HUME said he hail never complained of the
amount of the pay either in the army or the navy; on
the contrary, he bad often said that it was not enough.
ths complaint was as to the number employed. What
he wished to see was equality established between the
officers in every department of the service.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the vote
For the amendment . 15
Majority in favour of the vote.. —69
On the vote of 159,932/, for the expenses of the general
staff,
litr. HUME complained of the amount of the vote,
assing that the reduction made in the colonial military
establishments rendered it unnecessary to maintain so
far„
e a number of staff officers,
Mr. F. MAULE said reductions had been made.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 92,7471. for allowances and contingent
eXpenses for the several departments of her Majesty's
land forces,
Mr. WILLIANS complained of the retention of the
office of Deputy Judge Advocate, at aneedleer: so
s expliegnhste. of
I,oele when the duties of the principal w
andee F. MAULE said the duties of the Judge Advocate
his deputy were of very great importance, for the
raaditigs of all court-martials passed through their
for
ands, and it was their duty to see that they were con.
mable to law.
t wMr. HUME could not understand why the appoint_
it a Minister of War, recommended by a Cons-
,of which five Members of the present Government
Ze.errie Part, and by which a great saving would be effected,
to r
not been made. All reform appeared to be stopped
the present.
The vote was then agreed to.
11.1,1 the vote of 16,901/. for the expenses of the Royal
intary College,
prrTelsotinegl ItEii) wished
to take that opportunity of
aginst the system of subjecting officers to an
LzaMination son their promotion. He had listened with
'co'4re'stuld pain when he heard the scheme propounded, for be
not b
epirit ut feel that it was a calamity to wound the
v ,and humiliate the feelings of gentlemen in the sere
ii, g°gee °3' subjecting them to an examination before a pe-
eoped the
abstract sciences; and he certainly had
fled ht.uat the Right Hon. Gentleman would have qua-
howe4 pt
fu roposition in some way or other. He regretted,
find that the plan was to be carried cut. He
a. rther, and would deny the necessity and the
tie'ets"n Lutility of a knowledge of these abstract see
• would appeal to the Right Hon. Gentleman
_ation of that assertion. He trusted the Right
aebjeev-t7an_tittman would apply his strong mind to the
s,„ u't would point out to the officers of the army
41)1
-.4
out of
_Studying on their own account, and holding
intro encouragement to those who did so. Any person
look Illeed into the regiment as a pedagogue would be
ro •
upon es a sort of spy, and no
oint
gentleman he be•
accept such an a
pp ment: He con-
e regulation would be extr( .ely unjust