The Sun.
London, England, 1802-06-10 00:00:00

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the 25. 'boo men were propose/ to be-voted, nor was
that number merely for Ireland either; but it
was to be • recollected, in considering this mat-
ter, that we had now several Possessions to take
care of which did not belong to os:formerly; as well
as that we had given 'up many which we possessed,
.by means of the late,War. We- had now to take
care of Trinidad, in' the West, and Ceylon, in the
ast.-lA7e, were also- to take care of Gibraltar, and
likewise to protea and secure our Possessions in
North America ;under all these.circumstances, surely
it was the duty of Ministers to provide such Military
strength as wottld give this Country a reasonable
degree of security. If there was aetually a fOrce of
47)090 in-en in the . Country, he did not know,
that, under the present circumstances, such a Force
would be demanded for the purpose of security. There
was no man who attached more importance than he
did to the consideration of the mearis dour security,
no man who. relied more upon the valour of our
Fleets and Armies ; but he was also impressed with
, this conviction, that brave as .our Forces might be,
great, or consummate as the skill might be by
:which they were directed, still 'we must always
look to "the zeal' and ardour of the people to give
`life •and.vigour to all our undertakings ; and this
,Ptiticiple had been most conspicitous in this- Coun-
try, when most threatened with danger, and had
most of all signal in the progress of die late war. '•
r'
credit Of this Country was also great ; its re- •
sources vast—but with all these mighty-advantages,
for so they were, with' all the advantages of the zeal, ,
ardour, and public spirit of the People, the bravery of
Its Troops, the skill of their Commanders, the credit
'and resources Of the Country, and . all • the points
which constituted its character, we could not be-ex_. eused if we-did not provide essential means, likethese,
leer the continuance of its safety. As to the probabi-
lItY of our being again soon involved in war, he
certainly had no idea of any such thing; but secure
as lie conceived us to be in this respeet, 'he shOuld
not suffer that idea to lull him into a'false security,
for that would be worse than a false alarm of danger
the course which be wished to pursire was a middle
Course, which he hoped would 'prevent jealousy on
the one hand, or an invitation, by weakness, to
hostility on the other. He then proceeded to take
Fice of the difference which the present proposed

orce Would make from that of the War Establish_

Thera, the savings-upon which, suppoSing no further
t'edudions to take place between this and Christmas
t)exri would be seven millions, three millions of
tll'hich would be in the amount of the Army Esta-
'Ushment. Now, he observed, that from the
manner in which his Hon. Friend who. spoke last,
j'ad Laken up the. subjea, he hardly knew -how to
argue it, since his Hon. Friend took the Vote now
Proposed, as the permanent system.of establishment,
.0r something like the- system, that was likely to
be countenanced by. Government, by way of the
future Peace EstabliShment of this Country ; and
taking it so, his Hon. Friend-had said it was too
large in one sense, and too small in another ; too
large for a system of. ecomony, and- too small for a
System of security; and he- had stated it therefore
to he of all systems the most exceptionable; and so
would be, if his Hon. Friend was-right in view_. ing it as too large for one purpose, and too small
for another ; but he apprehended it to be neither,
but that it was a system which our security re-
tuired, and which was nor too far removed from
economy under the present circumstances. His
lion. Friend had taken a view of the- Peace Esta-
blishment of 1791, and he had given the Committee
unders:and, .that the 'system of 1791 was that
`*() which be inclined-: that was indeed a. system
Ivhieil was not liable to the double objedion of be..
too large in one case, and too small in another—
tuo large for economy, and too small for security. It
cerramly Was not too small for the economy of which
I'is 1-lon. Friend spoke ; but as to security it was-
ntiseribly defeaive-he thought, therefore, that.
the' plan for our Establishment for the ensuing year,
Out which from cireunistances the Committee: must
'CC he would nor define) could not be formed upon.
themodel of the Establishment of 1791. We ought,
itt'°s( unquestionably,- to 'have a much larger esta
i
I;shment than that of the year 179t1 and he would
ask the Committee, whether they had or, had not
up their minds to follow the precedent of our
,„ilitary Establishment of 1.791 and 1792 ? lie
whether,
ask every Member of the COmmittee,
"vsnetiler upon looking back at all the circumstances
°Li °Lir Military. System in the years 5791 and 1792,
he was not convinced that it was a system which,
to say the least of it, was miserably deficient
hether, on the very instant of the breaking
(sttt of the- war, there was not, among us, a general
10nseiousness, that our Military Establishment was
much below the point at which it would' be pit-
nt to keep it in future ? He really thought such..
sc°nsciousness was general, and that the. evils red
,jiting from it, were admitted I for it was not
the war had continued for several years, that
e had an Army capable- of offcrisive operations,
`"(1 it was not until within a certain, and not a
"-erY remote period, of the termination of hostilities,
Qar Army was in the degree of force which it ought
he for the purpose of maintaining the Contest
14 which we had been engaged.—Now, if Gentle-
:en would make up their. minds to incur a great
.o"nger for the sake of saving some expellee, he would
say, that although that was the sentiment of his
°II. Friend who spoke last, yet if -it was the ge-
'Zral sentiment in' that Committee, he should have
s? look forward with much more uneasy apprehen-
01he
°"s 0( our safety, than he felt at present. He felt
necessity of economy ; but in a large view of
only itself, he apprehended it to be proper to
Provide for our security, although the certain
,t3e,llce of so doing, be considerable; -because, in his
ti'_ew of the thing, there was no economy where
s sere was no security. He knew his Hon. Friend
1-
1. 41"Ke on this occasion as lie
, did on all others,
ahver Hutch thought ; that his opinions were
d"Ys the result of refledion ;. his sentiments
e always stew:lily formed and candidly avow-
h4llot only in that House, but also out of it. H
the happiness of communicating -with his. Hon.e end noon
many" public topics•out of that House,
46,fe t tile time of discussion within. lie had.
lriy „'° upo,, the topic now before the Corhinittee ;
P"ri 1. Friend had been so kind as to put him in
ssession f •
t' his sentiments on this subjea ; he
the points he hail brought forward .to-hight,
0

true points On which hiss Fronitrienciis mind was
made up, and therefore he
,had stated them to the
Committee ; • he applauded the candour, and Tespea.
ed the-sincerity of his Hari;Frierid—bnt he ShOuld
'feel Considerable alarm for— the situation of this
Country, if the opinion of-his Hort Friend on these
topics should become the prevailing opinion of
that House. 'He was not. disposed to attach much
weight' to• any observations; however respectable
the quarter might be from whence they came, and
none could be more so than that of his Hon. Friend;
but he could net attach much iveight to observa-
tions which were made from the view of, only one
side of any subjeEt : we could not think on the great
increase of our Expenditure,-without feeling also
that our Income' had likewise increased. Here- we
saw indeed an increase from 4. to z 8 millions. If
there was such an increase in the ietual amount of
our Charges, arising from the unavoidable increase
of -our Debt, he aid not conceive that this consi-
deration deserved the denomination of a gloomy
prospect, since there were on the other side
prospeCts of a comfortable-kind ; for if our Debt
-had been augmented, our Imports had increased,
our Exports had increased, our Shipping had in-
creased, our ManufaCtures had increased, and all
-the sources of our wealth and power as a Nation had
improved ; and this, in a manner that wa' much
more than equal to the increase of our burtheni.—
He was not to be understood by this- to contend,
that the pressure of the War was not great: -On
the contrary, he admitted that pressure'to be great;
but what he contended was, that the povver of the
country was greatet than-the pressure upon it,' and
that its means to suppokt itself are still ample, nOt-
withstanding the pressure it has borne.' He did
not mean to undet-rate thepressure -of the burthens
upon this Country at any time, but he did not !;eeany
reason why that part of the subjea should be consi-
dered,, without considering also the wealth of -the
Country.Wit•hout desiring the Committee to indulge
any sentiment of distrust at the present posture of.
'affltirs, but merely for the purpose of inculcating
doetrine of necessary caution, he would desire the
Committee to look at the present Geographical
relrt-
don which this-Country bears to other Countries on
'the different parts of the Glube. He contended it
was-impassible to look at the Map of Europe, with.
out feeling that a'sentiment of caution and a certain
degree of preparation was' imposed apon that HouSe.
Did he conceive that there was any dispOsition indi-
cative of danger manifested any where ? Or, that
he could say that Peace should not he observed, and
its advantages cultivated in the true spirit of peace ?
No such thing—he saw no such indication—he wish-
ed to inspire no distrust against the continuance of
Peace—hut he looked at the world as:it- was—at
mankind as they were ; and he was not sanguine
enough .to think that the world was grown so
much better, or that the temper of mankind
was so much improved, as to think caution was
absolutely superfluous as to think that no
advantage would ever be attempted to be taken of
us, or that we should continue to .be perfectly se-
cure, although we should have reduced ourselves to
a state of absolute weakness. To a state of weak.
ness, he was of opinion, we. should'he redueed, if we
adopted the system of this Country in the year
1791, for which reason he could not assent to it.
His Honourable Friend had said, that a greater de-
gree of publicity attended the proceedings of this,
Country ,in State Matters than that of any other in
this world, and that this publiCity had its advan-
taxesand its disadvantages. This statement was
perfectly cdrrea as far as it went. That the pub-
licity of the proceedings of a_State was attended
with some disadvantages was true, and they were
inseparable from the condition of a Free State ; but
that the advantages on the whole case, greatly.over-
balanced the disadvantages of such publicity, was
absolutely manifest to him ; So much so; that he
did not think 'it a question to be at all discussed in
the present enlightened state of human society.
But he could not help saying, that whatever evils
might he stipposed -to 'attend the publicity of the
sentiments of public men on public affairs, such sen-
timents, in his opinion, 'ought to be made public,
that the world might judge of them. He never
did, and, he hoped'he never should, use any violent
or intemperate language towards other Powers, but
he should always use explicit language in conveying
what he'meant as necessary measures for the well-
being or safety of thii Country. How irritation
'could be the result of that course he could
'not conceive, but if it was td -be so, he should
not be deterred' from doing his duty,' from '
any ' such, or indeed any other consideration.
Having said this, he should add,- that in his
opinion it was not posSible to provide for the
security of the Country, nor indeed 'to be in that
state of Military Voice, which all the Committee
(except his Hon. Friend) seemed to wish, between
'this time and the end of the year, without voting
that which was now proposed.—He earnestly hoped
the period was not remote, when a large redudion
should take place in out Peace Establishment ; but
we should at all events guard against the possibility
of being placed in the same situation we were in at
the period dint. Upon the whole; he was in-
clined to hope that the 'House arid the Country
would not think that Government had shewn any
improvident regard to what was due to the Country,
by bringing forward the proposition which was now
before the Committee. The-amount of the Naval
and of the Military Force to be kept up in this
Country drust,, in future; be judged of by cir.
cumstances ; his opinion was, that they might
be safely reduced to a very considerable extent ;
but he begged to he understood as not to pledge
himself to any specific Establishment; either as
to Navy or Army. He should wish to proceed
in such manner as to provide for our safety in all
cases, without any unnecessary expence. He was
of opinion that the measure new proposed was not
more than was necessary, under the present 'cireum-
stances, to provide for OUT safety according to the
principle which; he apprehended; was the true-
guide of our conduCt.

Mr. JONES thought the burdens insupportable,
but.saw the necessity 'ofpesenting an' iron front to
the 'adamantine Republic. He thought the' ;House
too thin to decide on such 1n- important Subjea. .
Mr.:VANSITTARt rose to correet some state-
ments made by Mr. BANK ES. He said the Hon. Gen.
:Leman had stated the excess of the revenOeAbove the

Interest of the debt in r79i ttiamotifirfo-6,766,0001.
and that in the present yea). .only :to 5,500,0001.
to observing tirn this, he shotdd take the. AcCounts
made up to the s.th Apt'illast, instead of those rridd2
up to Jantiary, as in the latter—the-re were Many
things which arose from circumstances not at all to
be expected ding Pea Ce. By the Accotrnts,niatie
up to April 7ast, the net Revenue amounted to
22,996,0661. In this sum the Customs were not
included, nor a deduAion of 2,000,0001. for Corn-
bounties: The stoppage of die Distilleries had also
in the preceding period taken away a large sum ;
but of this lie should, make no estiniate at present.
There was oniittej also in the Accounts, the sum .of

300,0001. of the Revenues of i 801; In addition

to this, the. Taxes laid on thiS year would, at the
most moderate computation,. amount to 4,00000db1.
and the Land;faX to i,660,0601. making in all
nearly 3 t millions and a half. The interest and
expences of the Debt amounted to Z 4,603,0001.
from which it would appear that the clear Funl to
cover our Expenditure was 9,600,0001... instead of
6,700,0001. the boasted overplus of 1791. -
Mr. BANKES said, that froth the Papers laid
upon the Table he should 'attempt to justify himself
from the charge of inaecuraCy. The Accounts which
lay on the Table only came up to January, it was
therefore impossible in reasoning froth them to take
any notice of the Loan, or
.the new Taxes, which
did not then exist. He contended, that .all the
particulars he had formerly stated were coma ;
that the,balance of the free Revenue was greater in
1791, and that we had a double.expence on a less
revenue.: he should defer any further observations
-till a future day.
Mr. ROBSON observed, that such--an-enormous
Establishment could, not be reckoned one of the bless.
ings of Peace.

The R6oliitiori was then put and carried.
The SECRETARY at WAR then moved the
following Sums:

439,000
315,852

17,919
130,000
474,000
13,863
13,868
7,984
- 27,754
1,200
10,855
5094
- 14o,o,:o
- 60,315
-. 35,035
6,212
- 144,400
26,161
45,205

-
-
-

5
16,571