The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-21 00:00:00

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dense of the dead and the living. My Noble Friend ears
that English Protestants are faithful and sincere, and he 4',4
says he depends upon the warm attachment of the vast ma-
pray of the people of this country to the Established
'N
Church of England. He believes that attachment to be
from the heart—that there may be a movement on the sur-
face, but that there is a deep strong under-current of affec-
tion 'ever flowing beneath. He believes that their religion
is written upon their hearts' core. But, if that be so, then
there is no need or occasion in England far this Bill—
(Hear, hear)—and nothing in Ireland to call for or justify
it.--(Hear, hear.) I feel such confidence in the wisdom of
Parliament, that I hope confidently that this Bill will never
pa.s into a law. The Right Hon. Baronet concluded his
speech amidst loud and prolonged cheers from all sides of
the House.

Lord J. RUSSELL was received on his rising with a re-
newal of the cheering, and with ironical cheers from the Irish
Members, which prevented his proceeding to address the
House immediately. He said,-I hope the House will in-
dulge me while I make some observations in defence of the
preseet Bill-(Oh, oh ! and cheers) -and in defence of the
general principle which is contained in this Bill. However
this Bill may be described as insignificant, or however its
provisions may be described as inefficacious, the House will
not have failed to observe that on one side and on the other
there has been the greatest zeal and the greatest persever-
ance shown in commending or in blaming this Bill as fit Or
as unfit to be adopted. The House cannot but observe that
whatever the provisions of the Bill may be, when
i you ex-
amine into details, there is some great principle involved,
some question upon which it behoves the Commons
is of Eng-
land deliberately to pronounce. Sir, that questionin my
view not less than this : -For many years since the restore-
Von of Louis XVIII. the Court of Rome has endeavoured to
revive pretensions, to attempt domination, to restore supre-
macy, which many thought had been for ever abandoned.-
(Cheers.) And indeed for some time those efforts were at-
tended with so little success that they might have
been safely disregarded, if not treated with con-
tempt..-(Loud cheers.) But of late years, and more
especially since the democratic revolution which took place
in the beginning of the year 1848, men seeking for some
safety, for some plank by which they might escape in the
shipwreck, have resorted to the authority, the influence, the
power, and the name of the Church of Rome ; and the clergy
of that church have seen in that circumstance an opports-
nity of reviving powers which, if they are successfully
claimed, must be fatal to the liberty of every country it
Europe.-(Loud cheers.) :Look at the change that has taken
place within the last two years. Look at the change, ad-
verted to by the Honourable and Learned Member for Ox-
ford (Mr. P. Wood), and by my Noble Friend at
the head of foreign affairs, that has taken place
in Austria. You will see there a specimen and intone, of
that which we allege, and of the abandonment of the se-
curities which had been wisely formed-of an arrogation of
authority in the State which the State claimed to itself as
indefeasible, You will see a surrender to the Church of
Rome of that which had been carefully end pertinaciously
withheld from her. Look to another instance, of whioh
we had a valuable testimony the other night of one who
bears.a celebrated name, and who in that eflect gave a proof
of talent, and showed that he (Sir R. Peel) could relate to
the House in the most vivid and expressive manner the ex-
perience he had himself obtained in another land.-(Cheers.)
Look to those instances, and I think you will not fail to be
convinced that Europe and the friends of liberty, whether is
Germany or Italy or in any other parts of Europe, must now
be looking to you; and if after all the Protestant feeling
which had been exhibited-if atter the sense of indignation
which had been expressed, and when a Bill has been brought
before the House by Government, professing to contain a re-
sistance to aggression-professing to maintain the assertion
of the supremacy of the Crown-the Bill should be at once
rejected on the second reading, without any clear and definite
substitute, but merely some hints of resolutions to
be passed hereafter-merely some vague suggestions
of admiration of the feeling which had been exhibited and
opposed to aggression-I think the friends of liberty through.
out Europe will conclude that in addition to all other
conquests, that in addition to all other triumphs, the Court
of Rome has obtained this great conquest, has obtained this
most splendid triumph-the conquest and triumph over the
minds of the House of Commonsof England.-(Leud cheers.)
The Right Hon. Baronet who spoke last, referring to maw
celebrated persons who had been advocates of the Roman
Catholic claims, quoted as first and most memorable of them
all the name of Grattan. I will refer -.also to the name of
Grattan, because like him (Sir J. Graham) I look :to Grat-
tan as a man who had studied this question more deeply,
and as one who was not only most impressive in urging the
claims of our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects to civil equa-
lity and to seats in Parliament, but one who had studied the
genius of Rome, and had studied the nature of both Ireland
and England. Now, what was Mr. GratterCe prediction on
this question? In 1817 he said-
" I beg to observe that there is now every reason to hopo,
and there is no reason to doubt, but that securities may be
had. and such securities as the House will perhaps think
desirable. There may be domestic nomination, there may
be a veto, there may be both The question is,
whether any securities whatever will be received. Let me
tell you why. There is a communication between the
Pope and the Catholic clergy which must end either in an
incorporation with the see of Rome, or a connexion with the
Government of England ; and if the latter be refused it will
be dangerous to the safety of England. You will have the
Catholic clergy incorporated with the see of Rome, and the
Catholic laity discorporated from .the people of England."
Now, be it observed that Mr. Grattan, supported as he was
on that occasion by the men of all parties of eminence in
this House-by Sir Samuel Romilly and Mr. Ponsonby, by
Mr. Brougham, by Lord Althorp, Lord Castlereagh, and
Mr. Canning, and by many others who r, se afterwards to
great distinction, said, " You will have one of these two
things ; -you will either secure the domestic nomination of
bishops and a veto in the hauls of the Crown, or, failing
that, you will see the whole Catholic clergy incorporated
with the See of Rome, and the Catholic laity discorpo-
rated from the people of England." Sir, recent events
have shown that there was too much truth in Mr. Grat-

tan's prediction. You have neither the domestic nomina-
tion of bishops, nor have you the veto in the hands of
the Crown. These were the securities proposed in 1817 ;
they were not proposed in 1829; end you have that now
which did not exist in former times; instead of two very
distinct bodies—n,mely, Roman Catholics who were Roman
Catholics in religion, but who had no veneration for the Pope
as a temporal power, you have seen by the declarations of
the Duke of Norfolk, Lord Beaumont, and Lord Camoys,
that those men are few indeed, who in these days will sepa-
rate themselves from any pretensions of the Church of Rome
—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers)—and who will not affect
those pretensions. whatever they may be.— (Hear.) Now let
me again repeat to the House that this is the prediction of
Mr. Grattan, the very man to whom my Right Hon. Friend
referred, and rightly, as the greatest authority who could be
quoted on this occasion. Now, if that be true which he pre-
dicted—that you have the Catholic clergy incorporated with
the See of Rome, and that the Catholic laity are in a great
degree discorporated from the 1 eople of England, 1 say it be-
hoves us to see what is the danger that we are now incurring,
and whether we can have any means of meeting that danger.
I cannot but say I have been greatly struck by the theorise
that have been propounded to the House on the subject of
religious liberty.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member
for Plymouth, in his most able speech, told us that if you bad
religious freedom you must allow to those who claim that
freedom that which belonged to their own religion—to their
own church; that if they had an ecclesiastical organization
you must permit that ecclesiastical organization to be com-
pleted, and therefore you must allow, uncontradicted, any-
thing which belonged to the faith which those persons main-
tained. Now, how far does this pretension go ? (Hear.)
Because the real question is—which the Hon. and Learned
Member did not touch upon—who is to decide what is eccle-
siastical—what is spiritual in these natters?—(Hear.) Are
Roman Catholics, on the ground that it belongs to their eccle-
siastical arrangements, to make any assumption they please
to claim any sway over this realm of England—(lw)
to claim any supremacy over the Queen of England—(Hear,
hear)—and are we to be satisfied by their saying, "This is
ecclesiastical this belongs to our religion ?"
hear.) Would the lloa. and Learned Gentleman be antis-
fied with any assertion they might make in this respect
with regard to spiritual and temporal matters? My
Right Hon. Friend seemed disposed to say that religion
is a matter connected with spiritual concerns, and, there-
fore, it is a spiritual matter is which the State cannot in-
terfere with the proceedings of the Catholic clergy. Now
suppose they should declare that in Ireland the National
Board of Education is dangerous to their faith, and that any
person belonging either to the clergy or the laity who as-
sisted in carrying that system into effect should be excom-
municated and deprived of the rites of religion, that being a
matter entirely spiritual—or suppose they go a step
further, and say with regard to the police and military
that a person cannot remain in the police or military under
a Sovereign who countenances and sanctions such measures?
- (Cries of "Oh, oh," and cheers.) Hon. Members say
" Oh !" and I hear one say that that should not be al-
lowed ; but that is exactly what I expected, because it
shows that you cannot rest satisfied with the assertion of the
Roman Catholic clergy that such a matter is spiritual or
ecclesiastical, but that you must judge for yourselves
whether it is se or not, and decide according to your judg-
ment—(Hear, hear)—and here another Hon. Member Bar
that cannot be done. Now, having read somewhat of his-
tory- not only of that history to which Hon. Gentlemen
thought it wrong to refer—that tf the times of the disputes
between Catholics and Protestants—but the history of moat
recent times—l must say that trusting to the moderation of'
the See of Rome as to the distinction between temporal and
spiritual is one of the worst securities you can have. It was
only yesterday I was looking, cursorily indeed, at the cor-
respondence, about the year 1816 or 1817, between the Secre-
tary of State of the Pope and the King of Naples, and the
which you claim, but
King of Naples said, " may be quite wrong in refusing you
tribute—in refusing you certain landse in
menacing
ttero aewtweamitha
hear.) But such was the opinion of
pspoirrailtumaal
tcteenr.sf—eseebeeacra,ufheae
the Pope, that he thought
matter of spiritual cognizance; and, if we were entirely to
trust to the Papal authority in this matter, depend upon it
we shall hear the spiritual jurisdiction is extended far beyond
that of which we have any conception now.—(Hear, hear.)
And one Hon. Member said, and my Right Hon. Friend who
spoke last has said, among the rest, in referring to what has
been lately done, that the language of the
Po
pastoral is arrogant in the extreme, an-a
rieedlesslPe vanOlfroenfaithvse
to the people of England.—(Hear.) That is an -admission
to a certain extent; but the question is, whether it ifi an
admission to the extent which is •id by
really requir—
the nation.—(Hear, hear.) I must beg the attention of my
Right Hon. Friend, who, although no doubt he has studied
this question a good deal, seems, I in. to have mistaken
some of the most material it—I must call
pol
his attention to what really is the character of this resasipt of
e
a
t
Points of ith_(k
the Pope; and before I do so I must refer to a writing of Dr.
Wiseman,Th
sto in the
ic
see,
iublin Resist,, which I found referred to
n
by Mr. Palmer, in his book the Church. He says—
selves the archbishops and bishops of the Church established
it is
selves charges those who call them-
in England and Ireland with being intruders by favour of the
civil power into the sees of those realms ; inasmuch as they
and their predecessors took posses,ion thereof in spite and
to the detriment of the patriarchal rights of that see, which,
from the canons and by immemorial usage, had bean ex-
ercised in the nomination or approbation of
thistropolitaus
and bishops. Up to the time of HenryaVn.right was
apostolic see being set said*
perfectly acquiesced in, when by his at te Henry VIII.
on of the rights long holders
c. 20, the nomination was reserved by letters missive to the
• • •
King, thesaunchhorsituybToefrsi
power never admitted in any part of the Church, were clearlin-
and admitted of this apostolic see, and such assumption of a
e an act of usur-
pation arid intrusion which
fringements of the canons,. and. constitute
is :lull and Told in all its con-
sequences."
That is an assertion to this extent. Not noticing
at present the historical fallacies contained in the statement,
this is an assertion that that Act of Parliament of Henry
VIII. is null and void in all its consequences; that the
Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the Bishops of London
and Winchester, andthe other bishops of this realm, no longer
exist, the appointments thereto being void. Upon this fol-
lows this rescript of the Pope, in which, after naming all
these new archbishops, it is declared at the end.—
" And we decree that these our letters kpostolical shall
never atR any tilia be objected egekuit or iraPiSu•d v Prc