The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-18 00:00:00

FEBRUARY 17.

After divine service yesterd ,y, the King, accompanied
by the Princess Augusta, drove out on the cliff,, pass-
ing several Limes between Hove and Kemp-town in the
course of his drive.

The Queen, accompanied by Lady Clinton, Miss Hud.,
son, and Miss Bagot, attended afternoon service at St.
George's Chapel, when the Rev. J. Anderson preached a
most eloquent sermon. The body of t'.e sacred edifice
was crowded with mobility and gently, as on the previous
Sunday.
Sir Henry Bayley, Lord Saltoun, and the Royal suite,
!'ormed the dinner party last evening at the Palace.
Her M ij.sty honoured the Marchioness of Downshire
(Baroness Saynds) with a visit, at her residence on the
Old Steyne yesterday aftern ,on.
Lord Marcus Hill, Hon. Captain Powlett, Lady Kil
at aine, Lieut.-General Sir Henry Bayley, and Mr. A.
Blackwood, visited their Majesties.
The Grenadier Guards at present quartered in the
in'antry barracks hire, will leave on Friday next for
London.

A LACONIC CRITIQUE.—A Philadelphia
paper says, " Miss Kenil)le's Jane Shore was quite the
thing. The last act particularly was given with vernen-
dohs effect."

- -
The House met to-day at five o'clock. Prayers were
read by the Bishop of Hereford.
On the motion of the Marquis of LANDOWNE, the
Factories' Regulation Amendment Bill was read a third
time and passed.
L ,rd ELLENBOROUGH, in reference to a return he
held in his hand, wished to ask the Noble Lord opposite
(Auckland) at what period the adjustment of the account
of the Customs usually took place? He (Lord Ellenborotigh)
apprehended that the time was previous to June, inns
much as the return he held in his hand, printed in June
1 ist, nearly corresponded with the return of the imports for
the previous year. That return was incorrect it,
some respects, on account, as be apprehended, of
being made up previous to the final adjustment of
the account. He trusted his Noble Friend would
in future have the accounts of the Customs finally
adjusted before any returns were made,"inasmuch as if they
were not so, they would always be subject to errors. Ile
thought it would be as well that the alterations in duties
should be inserted.
Lord AUCKLAND said the usual time at which the
adjustments were made was on the 25th of March, but
those accounts did not probably get into the b ands of their
Lordships before the end of April.—(Hear, hear.)
It was almost an impossibility to have the accounts
as correct as could he wished, but they were far more
correct than his Noble Friend had stated, inasmuch as
many errors had been corrected upon that return in the
out-ports. He admitted that it would be desirable that
the alteration of duties should be inserted in the accounts,
and he thought if his Noble Friend would look to the ac-
counts of last year he would find that such a course had
been adopted.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that the account was
so incorrect, that be bad found an error in it of no less
than a million of gallons of wine. The account he had
referred to had been presented to the House in conse-
quence of an order made in June last.
Lord AUCKLAND said he would make inquiries into
the subject.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed that tl e account,
as far as regarded Cape and French wines, was perfectly
correct, but as to all others, it was most inaccurate.
The subject then dropped.
The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition from the
Archdeacon and clergy of the archdeaconry of Ely, in fa-
vour of the better observance of the Sabbath. Also another
petition, from the same body, praying that no measures
might be introduced that would affect the church
establishment.—(Heir,:hear.) The petitioners were fearful
that such measures would be introduced in consequence of
the vehement appeal on the part of the Dissenters. The
petitioners wished the Dissenters to be dealt fairly with,
and had no objection to a national registration of hi: the.
The Right Rev. Prelate concurred entirely with the prayer
,f the petition.
The House then adjourned.

BO USE OF COMMONS, FEB. 17.
Mr. JAMES OSWALD brought up the Report of the
Committee upon the Glasgow Supply of Water Bill, stat-
ing that the orders of the House had been complied wish.
—Laid on the table.
Mr. Alderman WOOD brought up the Bill for Improv-
ing the Approaches to London Bridge.—Read a first and
second time.
Mr. CARTWRIGHT presented a petition from certain
Magistrates of the county of Buckingham, the purport al
which, from the noise in the House, we could not catch.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL gave notice of a motion for
the return of the number of prisoners tried by courts-

martial during the last ten ye3rs.
Mr. FINN gave notice of a motion for a return of the
Peace Preservation Establishment in Ireland for the year
1833, and for a similar return of the number of police
employed for the city of Dublin.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM moved the order of the day
for going into a Committee of Supply.
Lord G. SOMERSET, seeing the Hon. Member fi
Rochester in his place, and finding that the Raise was now
about to consider the Navy estimates, wished to know
whether he would bring forward his motion, of which he
had given notice on Friday night?
Mr. BERNAL said if he could bring it forward before

12 o'clock he should do so.
INIr.
beforeO'C the
NELHLosuusgegitestwedoutlhiatbaes
well thereto make so much
business ueh
an order day, otherwise the business would be left
Wed-
nesday
much in arre,ir.—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said be should have no objection,
provided it should he found ,hsolutely necessary.
The Marquis of CHANDOS put a question to Lord
Alihorp, requesting to be inform d whether it was the
intention of Government to appoint a Committee to hear
evid, nee to support the necessity of a Bill of men-
tion was made last session, for strengthening the police

in agricultural districts?
Lord ALTHORP, who spoke in a very low tone, was
understood to say, that he was not at that moment pre-
pared to give the required information.
Just .as the House was about to resolve itself into a
Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates,
Mr. COBBETT rose and slid, they were about to take
into consideration the Estimates of the Navy, which had
been laid before them. It was particularly, positively, and
he might say, solemnly promised, that the House should have
accounts of every description laid before it in such on!er
as to give plenty of time for serious consileration before
they came to a discussion. The Navy Estimates con-
sisted of 45 folio pages, and contained upwards of 1,100
money items, to consider each of which, with gr, at per-
tieularity, was the bounden duty of all before they gave
a vote for a single sixpence._(Hear, hear, hear.)
Therefore, when the Right Hon. Baronet called on them
to night to vote a sum of four tuitions four hundred
and odd thousand pounds for the service of the navy, it
was quite clear that the House could not be considered
in that respect a deliberative assembly, for not one-ten'll
of the Members knew the contents of the papers laid
' before the House, and three fourths of them could net
have looked into them. flow long bad they had
these estimates before them ? Since Friday last. They
had had a good day's work on Friday, and he (Mr. Cob-
het) had been ts-n hours in the House. Then came
Saturday, and then Sunday. They had received strong
exhortations not to employ the Sunday in that way; but,
allowing the usual hours for sleeping, eating, and
drinking, the Members of that House had had only
six hours to examine forty•five folio pages, containing
eleven hundred items, to vote a farthing of which ap-
peared a crime to him, until he bad satisfied himself
that they ought to be voted. Then there were certain
Noblemen and Gentlemen who meant to bring forward a
motion for the repeal of the malt tax. He (Mr. Cobbett)
hoped they meant to do so. He hoped they meant to
show that they understood their own interests sufficiently
to resolve upon taking off this tax. How could they
take elf this tax if they voted money away for these
estimates without considering what they did ? For
merly the custom had been to discuss the grievances of
the country, and then vote the supplies; but now the
system was to vote away the money first, and then talk
about the grievances of the people. The great grievance
of the people at the present time was the malt tax ; the
next was the hop tax ; and then there was the soap tax ;
and yet with these grievances before them, here they were
about to vote away six or srven millions of money. It
was for the House to examine these accounts, and go through
them accurately. The Noble Lord says he cannot
spare the malt tax, but he (Mr. C.) would tell the Hon.
Baronet that his constituents could not spare the money.
—(Hear.) The Right Hen. Baronet goes to the Noble
Lord for the money, and says he wants four millions
tour hundred and odd thousand pounds ; the Noble
Lord says,—O, but they want to take off the malt tax ;
but the Right Hon. Baronet might say to him' that he
had the money in his pocket. He (Mr. Cohhett) said
that they wanted time to consider these items, but the
Right Hon. Baronet said this money wasall wanting. He
(Mr. Cobbett) would ask for what? Not to make
war, that was certain. Peace, peace everlasting,
was on the lips of the MYnisterta—(Hear, hear.) If
war, or the possibility of war, was hinted at, they cried
no,"--(Hear, and laughter.) if peace, their
cry was, " Yes, yes, yes." It might be said that the
people would support the navy—that it was the favourite
service—that it was the bulwark and best protection of
L the country. Agreed—he (Mr. C.) was quite willing to
vote as much as was voted last year, ~hen it was acknow-
• bulged by the Right Hon. Baronet that the Navy was
more efficient than now. lbw much yoed then for

people'a interest at heart.
Sir J. GRAHAM confessed that he did not suppose the
Hon: Gentleman serious in his motion. The .arrange-
mentasmade now were simplified so as to afford the best
facility in ascertaining the required expenditure, and to
give asatorrect idea of the estimates. It was a thin; of
oaramount importance that no postponement should take
place, as affairs were pressing on, and. time was propor-
tionably valuable. Hs hoped that on resection the Hon.
Gentleman would not urge his motion.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee, and
the SPEAKER left the Chair.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Sir J. GRAHAM rose to move the navy estimates.
Under the present circumstances, he thought he might be
permitted to congratulate the House on the prospect
of a financial improvement in commencing their career.
The Hon. Meml er opposite, in a speech before the House
resolved itself into Committee, occasioned a laugh from
the manner in which he spoke of the indifference with
which the House had been in the habit of voting large
sums of money. With respect to the Navy, he wished to
be distinctly understood to say that there had been con-
side:table reductions, and that those reductions had
been most effectually made,—(Hear.) He had on a
former occasion urged on the House the justice and neces-
sity of considering attentively what the position was of
the finances of this country when the present Ministers soca
ceeded to office. At that time the expenditure had been re-
duced by great and honest efforts to 50,000,000, 5,000,000
of which constituted one item, over which the executive
Government possessed no efficient control. Other reduc-
tions left of that sum only a surplus of 15,000,0001. an-
nually, on which the demands of Government could be
brought to bear. The Wellington Administration during
its last year reduced the taxation 3,000,0001. and a frac-
tion, which reduction was rendered possible by a co-equal
reduction in the expenditure. Since that period, namely,
three years, during which the present Ministers had been
in office, a similar reduction bad been made. That was
to say, the sum of 15,000,0001., the expenditure,
had been reduced to 12,000,0001.—(Hear)—a reduction
of more than 20 per cent. ; a further reduction of taxa-
tion within the last three years had taken place of
3,300,000/, constituting within the last four years a re-
duction of not less than 6,400,000/., which had been
attended by a simultaneous reduction in the expenditure.
It became the House then to consider the whole of this had
been the result of a gradual and temperate reduc-
tion. it had been gradual and temperate, therefore effec-
tual. It would not have been effectual, had it not been
systematic. Had it not been systematic, it would not
have been permanent, and attended by a progressive
itictease in the comforts of the country, which alone
could make economical reform consistent with the safe
policy of a great nation. Having proceeded on these
principles, he had the satisfaction, notwithstanding the
reductiam effected to the extent he had mentioned,
of 201 self cent.' within the last few years, of finding that
by the ti,tanates now to he brought forward; it was pro.
posed to effect a further reduction, as had been stated on
Friday; of no less than about half a million of money.
A reduction had been made since the present Ministers
had come into office, during the first year, viz. in 1830,
upon an opinion, formed by himself and his colleagues,
upon those materials which were not so easily purchased
and which it was so desirous to bold in store, in order to
provide for the supply of steam vessels of war. When he
came into office, he did not hesitate in proposing an in-
crease of the estimate of the preceding Administration
of the Duke of Wellington, and the House in
its confidence readily granted it—he, at the same
time, promising that every exertion should be used
to promote the strictest economy that was consistent
with maintaining the naval power of this country.
Since the estimates of 1831, a reduction had been made
to the amount of not less than 1,000,000/, and on the
present occasion, in addition to the saving effected last
year, he now proposed to continue that reouction, to
the extent of 180.000/. further, so that on an outlay of
under 6,000,0001., the total reduction was not less
than about 1,200,0001. The Right Hon. Gaut. then pro-
ceeded to state the items from which the reductions
had b,en made. One great reduction arose from the
system adopted in the clock yards. That system hail been
entirely changed, and the number of labourers employed
had been reduced to 6,000, which was the number
fixed by the predecessors of the present Government,
as competent fir a peace establishment. The
number was still 6,000, upon whicli a reduction of
a 2,0001. had been made in wages.—(Hear, hear.)
The next was a reduction upon an item to which
a margin charging 10 per cent. was attached, a portion
of which was sometimes unexpended, and he had
reduced that from ten per cent. to five per cent.
Upon that item there would be a saving of 42,000/. a-year.
There was another saving, which he was sure the House
would receive with satisfaction ; and it was suggested by
his predecessor in office : he alluded to the half-pay.
When he came to the Admiralty the rule was there should
'be only one promotion to every three vacancies, and that
occasioned the reduction in the tialf.pay of the navy of
65,0001. This year he was happy to say that the re ruction
in that respect would be from 24,000/. to 25,0001. more.
lle hoped it would be sufficient to say, that curing • the
list year there had been a re uction of 181,0001., which
made with the reductions of the former year 1,111,0001.,
and since 1831, 1,400,000/. in the Navy Estimates. He
would then proceed to notice a subject connected with
a particular vote which had been alluded to, and which
took- place in the May of the last year. He had proposed,
it would be recollected, a reduction of 500 wen, adding
in their places 1,000 buys, in consequence of the dis-
cussion which took place last session, when his
attention was called to the fact, which he found
upon inquiry to be well founded, that it was of
vast impoatance to introduce boys into the King's navy for
the first time when they went to sea, as it was cleerly
established that boys SO entering from early habit acquired
a decided preference for the King's service.—(llear,_hear.)
By this means the want of men, which was more
or less dependent upon the practice of impressment, would
lie more easily supplied. It would be contrary to his
feelings open the subject, if he had not taken some
steps to meet the strongly expressed wishes of the
House.—(Cheers.) Therefore the nun-liter of seamen
had been reduced by 500,
„instead of which he had
proposed an oddities' of 1,000 boys. 17,500 men,
with 1,000 boys, wouel require no more than 18,000
toeu, therefore as to wages there would be no increase
from the change. The rations of men and boys
were the same, so that on that head there would be
an increase; but, as he had stated muter the head
of wages, there would he no increase. The decrease of
500 men, therefore, with time addition o f 1,000 boys, was
effected without an increase of charge or wages, and
would be a considerable saving in the end. He felt that
he would be betraying his duty if tie expatiated ..t any length
upon this subject. The number of men he had proposed
he considered necessary, anti 1, cling that he was address-
ing a deliberative assembly, he felt that he should he
betraying that confidence with which they hid in-
trusted his Majesty's Ministers, if with reference to the
present political position of the country he were to state
vat they svould be justified in any way diminish-
ing the navy.--(Hear, Lear, hear.) He hoped the
liruse would riot cavil at the statements, or call upon
him to state the particular reasons which produced this
impression on his mind.—(Heir, hear.) He hit satis-
fied that any further reduction in the Navy would not
he productive of good, or consistent with the interests of
the country, or with its station as the first naval power
ia the nook!. Ile would, therefore, urge them strenu-
otiely and cordially to vote at once, the number of
men required, as their, so doing, would, be

required number of men ; hut if the Hon. Member had
'sat in the House, as he (Mr H.) had done for 25 years,
lie would have found that no Minister during the whole of
that time had ever proposed the estimates without
the same sort of call upon the House. The Hon. Baronet
had called them a deliberative assembly. Ought he not
then to have given some reasons for the large number of
men that he had called upon the House to vote ?
(Hear, hear.) Without any reasons, they were called
upon to vote a certain number merely because it was the
opinion of the Hon. Baronet, backed by that of Lis col-
leegues, that such a number was necessary. The Hon.
Baronet, in the commencement of his address, had invited
discus ion upon the general taxation of the country, in-
stead of confining himself to the department that more pe-
culiarly belonged to him. He (Mr. H.) most gladly embraced
the opportunity, and he would positively say, that the House
was bound to inquire into the taxation of the country and
its present situation, before it granted such a number of
men as was now asked for—it should not only inquire into
its present situation, but should compare it with what it
was in former times. He had no hesitation in saying that
the Government which preceded the present one bad
greatly augmented the expenditure ; and he was most
ready to give credit to the Government of the pre-
ssnt time for again bringing hack the expenditure
to what it formerly was. But he would call upon the
Mouse to look back to the year 1817, when it was found
that twenty thousand men were quite sufficient to
do all that was required—(Hear, hear)—and
he
really knew of nothing in the present time that
called for more vigilance, or a greater force. But looking
at the House as it was constituted in the time of the
former Government, considering that they had the House
entirely with them, he must say that the country was
much indebted to them, for the Right Honeurable
Baronet below him (Sir Robert Peel) had only to
ask for what he wanted, and it was at once granted ;
therefore, though they had added considerably to the
hurdens of the country by adding to the
efficiency, as it was called, of the navy, still the country
ought to be obliged to them for their moderation.—(A
laugh.) He would inquire whether the crse was not now
the same. He was afraid it was ; for by the cheers which
he heard around him when the Hon. Baronet con-
cluded, he was much afraid the present Ministry had
only to ask, and they were sure to receive. Those
cheers seemed to bite as if the House had given its
assent to all that had fallen from the Hon. Baronet. But
he would ask again why it was, it they were a deliberative
assembly, that they were to proceed in• the dark—with-
out reasons of any kind to guide them—to tell them
whether they were right or wrong ? No reason was as-
signed them by the House, except that both he and
his colleagues were of opinion that the number asked was
nice-nary ; but was that enough for the House? should not
they require some reason to show that in the present year
they requited 7,000 men more than was wanted in the
year 1817, under Lord Castlereagh, who, it was well
known, was not one of tile most economical ministers ?
What, lee would ask, were the circumstances of Europe
at the present time, which would warrant the people of
England being taxed with the maintenance of 5 or 6,000
men more than were necessary ? The Hon. Barone:
had not given any reason why such a course should be
pursued. In his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, England appeared
to be so Quixotic a nation, that it would pick a quarrel
with any pact of the world, if it could but keep up an
immense establishment. The Hon. Barnet had not given
any reason why they should not descend to the state they
were in in 1817 and 1792. He would here mention that
the expenses of the dockyards, though considerably reduced,
were far beyond the wants of the nation ;—he believed he
might say that the navy, consistirg of about 325,000
tons, might be built with a much less number of men
than were at present employed. Ships were built, year
after year, and left to rot ; and if a state of warfare
should take place, they never would be fit for service.
He was quite prepared to say that the navy ought to he
the strongest establistilDent ; but if it was considered ne.
cessary during the Tory administration of the country to
reduce it 20,000, surely the present state of things
could not he right when there were employed
between five and six thousand men above the usual
mark. He thought that Ministers ought, consistent with
their own conduct and opinions previously expressed, to
state why they considered it necessary to keep up more
men than their Tory predecessors. He protested
against the amount of the establishment, reduced as he
admitted it to have been, it being clear to him that the
number of men at present employed was by far too great.
Ile was as willing as any man to give the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet credit for the reduction he had made.
Was it not a breach of faith to the old officers to promote
young ones after the conclusion of the peace? And was it
not also in every instance a breach of faith with the
country, a great violation of the promises of economy, and
a constant accumulation of the burdens of the country ?
He feared that system was still going on. No promotion
ought to take place but for merit— no favour, no interest,
whether Whig or Tory, ought to he allowed to
carry on such a system.—(Hear, hear.) It seemed,
however, that the Honeurable Baronet took the
same care of his Tory friends as the Tories did of their
Whig friends.—(Laughter.) He complained that there
bad been an addition of a single man to the charge of
the public as an officer, unless actual and intrinsic
merit rendered him deserving, while there were out of the
5,000 officers in the service, 4,000 on half-pay. Any
man who looked at tie list of promotions since
the peace would find they consisted chiefly of the
aristocracy, who had not done, because they had nut seen,
any serviee.—(Hear.) The Hon. Baronet challenged
the Tories when they were in office with an abuse
of promotion ; but had he deviated one jot from following
the same course? He acted entirely upon the same rule
laid down by his predecessors, namely, that there
should be no limit to promotions save and except
the discretion of the First Lord of the Admiralty.
Was it right to promote members of Noble families and
those who had Parliamentary connexions? Was it for
the good of the service to raise youngers over officers who
were both old and meritorious? It was the contrary—it
was nut beneficial. Common sense was quite enough
to show that the result of such influence was very
injurious to the service. Government ought to receive
no credit fur the manner in which they distributed their
promotions. They complained very much of the conduct
of their predecessors l but when they took their places,
they just followed their steps. The present Government
were situated diffe, ently from those who went before them.
They said that the system of patronage should be checked,
Was this consistent with what they did afterwards?
Was it consistent with n hat the Noble Lord (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) had said, that the service
should he carried on without patronage ? Was this
pledge ever fulfilled ? Tney had then merle pronto-
tioes in the navy,—so many steps for patronage.
Lord ALTHORP, 1 never said so.
Mr. HUME—This is a new light e.rown on the
business, but the country understood that the system of
promotions by undue p Aron :get should be done away
with. The pressure of taxation was now too heavy,
end the House should pause before they granted
such a number as 27,000 men.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He considered the present estimates the same as last year.
The alteration of 180,0001. may he fairly accounted for
by the changes which, as a matter of course, pursuant to
the Right Hon Baronet's statemennt, should have been
in Ale. He thought that a sum of 180,000/., out of four
millions four hundred and mid thousand pounds.
was no reduction at all—(Hear, hear, hear.) The
House was net to consider what the estitna'es
of last year were, but the ouestion was whet was neces-
sary for the service of the country.? They ought not to
voie a single man more than was necessary now. In the
year 1792, when they had the fleets of France, Spain, and
in short the whole naval power of Europe liable to be brought
against them, tiny had not kept up within some thousands
of so large a naval establishment. The question was ex-
tremely simple, and he should be sorry to as-ume the'
any of those men who were paid for !eel not done their
deity. Unless the House began by reducing the expen-
diture, they could not take dr the taxes. He
(Mr, recollected When A tutu of two mil

made a sweeping charge against them, . amount-
ng to an universal condemnation.—(Bear, hear.)
As to his (Sir James Graham) having improperly bestowed
the patronage attached to his cffice, he denied that he
,listributed that patronage unfairly or partially.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) He also denied that he had
particularly distributed it among members of the
aristocracy. Indeed, he conceived that it was important
to the effective state of the navy, that the patronage in
that depa-tment should be distributed amongst all classes.
He defied the Hon. Gent, to say that lie had acted other-
wise than upon that principle of fairness and impartiality.
But the Hon. Member had said that a great portion of
the present navy might he dispensed with, for that,
he
would undertake to s iy, 300,000 tons might be built in
' -ix years; but in war time it might be• necessary to have
the whole 600,000 tons in six days—(llear, i.ear)—and
then what would become of that Hon. Member's plan if
the ships in the interim were allowed to go into decay
The Hon. Gentleman also attacked the Government on the
subject of promotion. He was of opinion there ought to
be n., promotion in time of peace. What then was to
become of those who bad spent their best days in the sf!rs!
vice in the hope they would eventually be promoted ? Of
the Captains at present in the navy, the avetage a:-:e of
100 was 60. To atop promotion would be to deprive
" '

many meritorious officers of all recompense fur the hard-
ships and dangers they bad been exposed to in theservice,
and for the broken nerves and shattered constitutions

which many of them had received in their arduous yro-
fession. Until such time as the Hruee adopted the no-
tions of the Hon. Member (and he had reason to believe
they were not yet prepared for that), the Government of
which he was a member, and he himself in his own de-
partment, must steadily pursue that course they bad
hitherto pursued. He was sure the Hon. Member did
not wish to delude the public on the subject of the exts,c
to which the present Government had reduced the tax-
ation of the country. He must be aware that in the space
of three years the present Government had reduced taxes
to the extent of 5,000,000/, while in the same short

time they bad reduced the expenditure by 3,000,000/.
Air. G. F. YOUNG said there must be something net;
extraordinary in the circum'tances of the country that
would justify any attempt to lessen that moral force which
it was so desirable this country should possess in the eyes

,if foreign nations. With, regard to the speech of the
Hon. Member for Middlesex, it was only a repetition of
what he had said last year on a similar occasion, without
the slightest success. He (Mr.. Young) regretted that
the linuse should not unanimously accord to Ministers the
estimates submitted that evening to it. He would give,
the Right Hon. Baronet and the Government his most
cordial support on this occasion, though as much opposed
to anything in the shape of extravagance as any Hon.
Member could be.

Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON said, if there ever was
a period when the state of Europe was such as to make it
necessary for this country to keep up an efficient navy,
that period was the present.—(Cheers.) It might soon be
necessary that the naval force of this country be sent
forth to support the honour and interests of the nation.
and to preserve the independence of Europe. The Hon.
Member for Middlesex must know as he (Mr. Fereussoni
did, that the exercise of this force might soon be necessary.
lie would not on any account vote fur any reduction in
the number of men in the present navy. He regretted
that in the estimates which had that night keen submitted
to them, there was no reference by the Right Hon. Baronet
to the name of Captain ROBB. That individual had
returned to this country after a five years' absence, during
a great part of which time the universal opinion was that
he was lost. He, therefore, thought he was entitled to
notice on the part of Government He (Mr. Ferguson)
begged to take that ooportunity of mentioning, that en
an early day he would move that the grant of a certain
sum of money be given to Captain Russ, in consideration
of the losses he had incurred, and the discoveries he lied
made in his voyages to the North Seas.—(Cheers.)
Captain YORKE rose to congratulate the Right Hon.
Baronet on the estimates he had that night brought be-
fore the House. They were the best estimates which had
been submitted to that House for years.
Mr. CHAPMAN said, that the country owed the
present Administration great thanks for what they had
done in keeping up the efficiency of the ravy. The only
observation he had to offer on yaws point was, that if any-
Hon. Member made any proposition for voting a reward
to that highly meritorious efficer, Captain Ross, it should
meet with his hearty concurrence.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LLOYD could not support his Hon. Friend the
Member for Middlesex on the present occasion, however
anxious lie was in general to reduce the expenditure of the
country. It, however, when the Army Estimates were
brought forward, his Hon. Friend should move for any
reduction on them, such a proposition should have his
support; but he could not concur in any such reduction
with reference to the navy. He thought the support and
consideration which the Ministry had asked for was very
reasonable and proper. Every man who did not shut his
eyes to the present state of Europe must see the necessity.
of our keeping up an efficient naval force. The navy of
Britain was her right arm ; and no man who loved his
country could desire to see that arm lopped off, oa even
rendered less powerful.
Mr. COBBETT said a great deal had been said by
some Members about the necessity of keeping up an un-
diminished naval force ; while, on the other hand, the
lion. Member for Middlesex denied that any such neees-
sity existed during a time of peace like the present. To
this be would say that it was not altogether for the pure..
pose of carrying on war that a certain naval force was, ne-
cessary to be kept up, but also for the purpose of main-
taining peace—(Cheers)—and he agreed with
the Hon.
Baronet in his catimate solely because he latiol this opinion.
He was as anxious as any man could ine to support the
efficiency of the navy, and he ole.jected to give his vote
to the Hon. Member for Middlesex for that reason.
What he objected to was, tha sum the navy cost, not to
the number of men kept up. The cost of the navy in the
year 1782, when we were at war with France, Spain, and
liolLind, was only 1,900,0001. more than the -urn now
applied for by the economical Baronet oppos.te. Last
erasion it was punt-lied that the estimates for this year
should he laid before the House at an early part of the
session, with the view of giving time for the oue conaideta-
tien of them before the money should be actually applied
for ; he must confess that this promise had been observed,
so tar as related to the mere fact of bringing the estimates
forward early in the session ; but the objection, the nui-
sance of the former plan remained : for, though the estimates
were, as for merly,hrought forward at an early period enough,
the House was called upon to discuss them, or rather,
to grant the money, without any reaaanable time being
riven to the Members to consider the items as they
ought ; in point of fact, when the estimates had only been
a few hours printed. The Right Hon. Baronet had been
most lustily cheered at his announcement of each prop• sed
reduction ; but he (Mr. C.) thought the lion. Baronet
was very little entitled to thooe cheers, when it was eon.
,idered what particular accidents had rendered the pro-
posed rtductions easily practic.ble, or, indeed, almost im-
possible
that at least 40,0001. had been saved to the coot:tr y
possible to be avoided. For installer, it should be reorient •
by an act of pure Provioence, namely, that whieb had
produced the present cheapness of corn ; surely the Righ:::
Hon. Baronet should not appropriate to hints,lf a bene-
faction which had dropped upon us from the sky. T,,en,
as to the other port of the reduction, from what did thin.
come? Why 19,0001. had been cut off from the poor
artficera.—(hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet
had male a large reduction among the net fiverF,
but none among the officers. If this }Tin fact hid
cute out bete re the Right Hon. Baronet had spoken, he
would not have received the cheers which hid been
bestowed on hint by a certain number of M. tubers, mere
long-tongued than numerous. He (Mr. Coblott) re.
Iterated, what be objecteo to in the navy was not its nume-
-1 jeal force, but its cost, which was outrageous. He could
not see, nor could the country be able to see, bow the
navy should now cost 4,400,0001., when there was just
effective a one kept up a few years back for half tee
money; indeed, a more tifect,v, one, as the Right Hon.
Baronet had last year acknowledg.d. The light Hon.
Baronet, ti lien he sat on that (the Oppositum) side of
tee House, boa wade a motion respec,ing the # nermous
stiwS received by the Privy Cooucil, and the wriale of
puOlie money in the Foreign Consulate arrtment,