The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-07 00:00:00

Sir F. THESIGER rose to move the amendment of tunato individual. He should, therefore, give his oppo-
which he had given notice. sition to tke amendment.
Mr. REYNOLDS rose to order. lie asked the Chair- Lord J. MANNERS said the Hon. and Learned Gen•
man whether it was competent for the Hon. Member to tleman had directed his objections not so much against
put the atm ndment? the amendment of the lion. and Learned Member for
Mr. BERNAL decided in the affirmative. Abingdon as against the amendment of the Hon. and
Sir F. THESIGER did not anticipate much objection Learned Member for Midhursn To him the question
to his proposition, it was of so reasonable a character. seemed to he this, would the House have an efficient or
The clause proposed to leave the recovery of penalties an inefficient measure? Ho had supported the measure
to the Act 10 George IV.; that was to say by informs- of her Majesty's Government hitherto, but believing as
tion. The Hon. Member for Midhurst desired to re- he did that the amendment would put an end to petty
cover the penalty by means of an informer; but a diffe- persecuting actions, and at the same time prevent the
rence of opinion prevailed upon the subject, some think- Attorney-General from neglecting his duty, be should
ing to leave the recovery to the Attorney-General would give it his support.
be illusory, and the provision a dead letter; while others I Lord J. RUSSELL said according to analogy pro-
thought if it were left to an informer it would give rise to secutions ought to be left to the Attorney-General when
great vexation, and leave a great opening to fraud and offences were committed against the State and the Crown.
collusion. Ile (Sir F. Thesiger) felt there was weight Now as the Attorney-General represented both State
in both objections; and therefore he suggested a middle and Crown, he ought of course to be the prosecutor in
course—leaving to the Attorney-General the right under cases where it was deemed fit that prosecutions should
Act 10 Geo. IV., hut giving au informer the power to in- be undertaken. Ira cases of libel ageinst the Sovereign
ttituto a suit under the control of the Attorney-General. the Attorney-General was resorted to and not a common
It was one thing to institute a suit, and another to con- informer. The only reason weighing with the House
trol it. In his proposition, the Attorney-General and against analogy—for without that reason the House
the informer would be a mutual check on each other, could have no hesitation about the matter—was that the
For if the Attorney-General wee slack, and the informer Act of 1829, as asserted, had been constantly violated,
respectable, it would be impossible for the Attorney_ and that Attorney-Generals had connived at that lido-
General to refuse it. The advantage of his proposition !girt% He believed that assumption was totally at va-
was, that it still left the responsibility to the Attorney- riance with the fact. He could not be supposed to an-
General. The Right Hon. Member for Longford had saver for every one, but those at least with whom he
stated that it was understood that the law of 1829, at re- had been connected in office, ho could undertake to
garded the provision in question, should not be carried answer for. The Attorney-General for Ireland, Sir
into effect. The law, nevertheless, was the same in Ire- M. O'Loghlin, he could answer for. He re-
land as in England; and yet the Attorney-General had membered on one occasion stating to that gen-
not prosecuted those persons who had assumed territo- tleman, not from his own opinion, but from a
rial titles. This it was which had led to all the present something that had been brought before him, that
difficulty, and with that experience before them, the there was a suspicion that he (Sir M. O'Loghlin) had
Committee could not hesitate to adopt the amendment, unduly favoured Roman Catholics. That Gentleman
He agreed that nothing was worse than to pass penal answered, much to his honour, "If you give the
laws and not to enforce them. This amendment he (Sir slightest belief to the rumour that I show partiality
Frederick Thesiger) proposed as a test of the sincerity to Roman Catholics over Protestants, lam unfit to hold
of the Government in the case of the penalty. The Hon. my office."—(Clear, hear.) There was the Lord Chief
and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving, "In Justice Blackburne, of high abilities and legal qualifica-
clause 2, line 39, after the word ' thereof,' to add these tion; he was not likely to give way to improper partia-
words, "r by action of debt at the suit of any person in lity. The Master of the Rolls for Ireland—could he be
one of her Majesty's superior courts of law, with the charged with not performing his duty, for such was the
consent of her Majesty's Attorney-General in England assumption conveyed by this amendment? He owned
and Ireland, or the Lord Advocate in Scotland, as the that he should consider that Attorney• General unworthy
case may be.'" of his office who gave permission to an informer to bring
The MASTER of the ROLLS said there were many a qui tam action under the Bill. If he saw an Attorney-
statutes which enabled actions to be brought by private General in the House who bad given such permission,
individuals with the sanction of the Attorney• General; he should say to him, "If this case ought to be prose-
but there were no cases which required greater attention cuted, why not prosecute it yourself?" It would be a
on his part; and.he would venture to say, from the expe- bad example if an Attorney. General, having a doubt
rienco he had had of that office, that the adoption of such about the evidence bearing out a prosecution, should say
a clause would be far from having the effect which it was to a common informer, " Though I will not prosecute,
intended to have. It would, in point of fact, induce the you may try your chance of getting 100/. from some in-
Attorney-General to shift from his own shoulders to dividual. I'll sign my name to the action." Now that
those of others the responsibility of bringing such ac- would be petty penal legislation, and in his opinion there
Lions. It was the usual course with an Attorney-General could not be a more accurate description of such an
not to allow any action to be brought without prime/ Act. In a case of that kind he owned that an Attor-
facie evidence being laid before him to support such ac- ney-General would be unworthy of his office; and be-
tion. It he were convinced of the propriety of an action having as he did that the gentlemen he had named had
being brought, it was his duty to bring it himself. lie not faded in their duty, he must give his opposition to
should also require of the person bringing the action to the amendment.
enter into a bond as a security for the costs, if the action Mr. REYNOLDS moved that the Chairman report
went against him. Whereas, if the action was brought progress.
by the Attorney-General, ho would be under no such Lord J. RUSSELL must say there was no ground
liability to pay the costs. The effect of putting such re- whatever for the Hon. Member's motion. The House
strictions upon the regular course of proceeding would was then fuller than at; any period of the evening,
be to make the Act a dead letter. The question had been amply discussed, nothing more
Mr. WALPOLE thought that the observations which could be added with advantage, and he thought the
had fallen from the Master of the Rolls were the most House was quite fit to come to a conclusion without
convincing proofs that the amendment ought to be further delay.
adopted. No objections could be raised against the Mr. KEOGH said Government were nearly in a mi-
nority a little while ago, and they were not then anxious
amendment, except the possibility of its becoming a
dead letter. He said the offence being notorious it was the debate should close. There was no Member who
r
necessary to provide against the law officers of the .represented an Irish constituency who had taken a part
Crown neglecting their duty in protecting the nation
in this important question.—(Oh.) It was not reason-
from a wrong done to it. The law in this respect, in- able to oppose the Hon. Gentleman's Totten.
volved in the Emancipation Act, did become a dead let-
Mr. REYNOLDS thought his motion by no means
ter.—(Hear, hear.) It should be recollected that there unreasonable.
was no law to prevent a Roman Catholic becoming At- After a few words from Lord J. RUSSELL,
torney-General. They should not, therefore, put him The Committee divided, when there appeared—
in a position in which his feelings would conflict with For the motion ... 41
his duty. But by giving the subject the power of put- Against it ••• •.• ••• 306
ting the law in motion, they would save him from the Majority • • ••• —265
painful position in which he would be placed. Upon Mr. REYNOLDS then moved that the Chairman leave
this amendment be (Mr. Walpole) was disposed to stand the chair.
firm, and unless the Government acceded to the propo- Lord J. RUSSELL said he had endeavoured, as far as
sition of his Hon. and Learned Friend an impression possible, to meet the convenience of the Hon. Member
would be induced that the Government did not really for Dublin and those who acted with him, by postpon-
i
intend to enforce the law in support of the dignity of ing the further discussion of the Bill from the day he
the Crown and to resent the insult to the nation. had originally named to that day fortnight, and he must
say that a more unfair return could not be imagined than
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it appeared to that which he had received at the hands of the Hon.
him that the course proposed by the supporters of the Member for Dublin, who, after indulging in taunts and
amendment was a most objectionable one. They were sarcasms, had taken advantagescrutinising of the concession which
not dealing with cases in which they would be compelled he had made to prevent him from making further pro-
y p
gress with the Bill that night.—(Cheers.)
they were dealing with an offence which was committed Mr. P. BUTLER said no man was more opposed to
before the eyes of the world. It would be but degrading the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill than himself. He was a
the motives for an action of this sort if they were to give Protestant and a sincere one; but he thought this the
power to the informer to originate the proceedings. The most unfortunate Bill ever introduced into that House;
prosecution should be a Government one, and based and representing, as ho did, a constituency nineteen out
upon the proper grounds. It would also degrade the of every twenty of whom were Roman Catholics, he had
office of the Attorney-General if it were brought in con- voted in the minority. He was not, however, prepared
tact with a common informer. If the Attorney-General to go further; he had done all which he thought consist-
were satisfied there were good grounds for bringing the ent with gentlemanly feeling—(Cheers)—and would go
action it would be his own duty to institute the proseeu- no further; and if there should be another division, he
lion; and if he did not do his duty, the House would would not vote against the Hon. Member for Dublin, but
compel him to take the proper course. In the case of a would walk out of the House.—(Cheers.)
Roman Catholic Attorney- General, if he so far forgot Sir R. INGLIS hoped it was not too late for the Noble
his duty in not instituting a prosecution when it was ne- Lord at the head of the Government to reconsider the
cessary for him to do so, he would broequally capable of announcement which he had made, and that in justice to
neglecting his duty by preventing the informer from himself and the people of England he would proceed
proceeding. If they thought the Attorney-General in- with the Bill on Thursday next—(Clear, hear)—and so
capable ot discharging his duty, why then, in heaven's continue, de die in diem, and, if necessary, test the sense
name, invest the power in the hands of some person else. of the House as he had just tested it, and so prove that
Mr. DISRAELI did not think that the circumstances all public business was interrupted in its progress by not
to which the amendment referred were petty. They more than a tenth part of the Members of that House—
would be circumstances of considerable notoriety and (rtnud cheers)—so that the Bill, after having, be be-
interest. He thought it highly desirable that the ma- lieved, been more days under discussion than any mea-
jesty of the law should be vindicated by the Attornry- sure fur the last twenty years, might at length be brought
General alone. But bow stood the facts? Had that to a close, not, perhaps, in so satisfactory a manner as
high and learned functionary been entrusted with this could be desired, but at any rate might terminate, and
duty, and had he done that which the country had ex- that the time of the House might not be further waited.
peeled from him?—(Bear, hear.) It was, unfortunately, a,lr. REYNOLDS believed that he was not justly open
a matter of historical record that the Attorney-General to the imputations that had been cast upon h!m—(Loud
had not accomplished that which the Legislature had an- cries of " Oh," and confusion). If he was not allowed
ticipated that he would have fulfilled.—(Hear, hear.) to explain, he would call for a division.—(Oh, oh.)
With that experience, then, they were called upon to Admiral BERKELEY said he had witnessed tyrant
deal with the circumstances before them. And how had majorities and what had been called factious minorities;
they dealt with them? The Hon. and Learned Member but in his lifetime—and his Parliamentary experience
for Midhurst had already made a proposition upon this had been considerable—he had never witnessed a more
subject. He (Mr. Disraeli) had felt it his- duty to ex- patient or forbearing majority—(Hear, hear)—or a more
press his objections to the course he then recommended factious—he would not make use of other terms—oppo-
the House to adopt. But, at the same time, while alive sition than that which had been led by the Hon. Mene-
t() that objection, he could not he blind to the fact that her for Dublin. I will tell the Hon. Member (continued
the At o ney-General had signally failed in the discharge the Hon. and Gallant Member) that the rules of this
of those duties with which he had been entrusted. The House were made by gentlemen—(Loud cheers)—by
objecti tns made by the Master of the Rolls and the Attor- gentlemen for the guidance of gentlemen—(Renewed and
ney-General were in effect that they sought by protracted cheers) —and if there are those that are come
this proposition to exercise a control over the Attor- amongst us that cannot be guided by those feelings, it is
ney-General. That was their objection, theoretically- high time we should alter the rules of our House, and
they desired that the Attorney :General should not place ourselves in a different position.—(Loud cheers.)
be controlled in the fulfilment of those duties which Mr. DISRAELI said an unnecessary warmth had
they believed it to be his duty to discharge.—(Hear, arisen from a want of appreciation of the observations
hear.) But practically they knew that the Attorney- of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. The
General under such circumstances had slumbered at his appeal of the Noble Lord was couched in such good
post. They therefore desired that he should do his temper, and actuated by so good a spirit, that he was
duty in a manner that would not incur public odium or quite certain that if it had been allowed to have its pro-
disrepute. Under these circumstances he felt it his duty per effect they should have been now discussing the
to support the amendment of the Hon. and Learned amendment of his Honourable and Learned Friend.
Member for Abingdon. He had already expressed his That was an important amendment, and re-
objections to the main construction of the Bill. Ile quired more discussion,
,perhaps, than it had re-
thought that they had made a great mistake in the basis caved; but, although it was their habit, generally
of their legislation upon this subject being penal. He speaking, to finish the debate at midnight, yet the Hon.
did not change his opinion on that point, though he Member for Dublin should recollect that they were on
would not presume to introduce it into the present die- the eve of an adjournment, and when a Committee was
cussion. But the House having resolved by large ma- at work, and in the midst of discussing an amendment
jerities that they would meet this imminent danger and of, or rather an addition to a clause, it
was not unusual
Papal aggression by penal legislation, it became their to sit up an hour or two beyond that time, or perhaps even
duty to make it efficient, and not only efficient, but as more.—(Clear, hear.) By two o'clock they might have
far as possible conducive to the national honour and to fairly discussed it, and ho really thought, although they
the national credit.—(Cheers.) had lost time, it was still in their power to do so. The
Mr. BETHELL agreed with the last Hon. Gentleman Hon. Member for Dublin and his friends would not
that they ought riot to encourage a petty piece of legis- forget the considerate manner in which the Noble Lord
lation, and in that spirit he would oppose the amend- had arranged the business with regard to the conve-
ment of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the nience of lion. Members of the sitter kingdom, and the
Member for Abingdon ; for anything more petty, temperate tone in which he had addressed himself to the
more at variance with the principles of their law, questions before them—(Hear, hear)—so different from
than to commit the punishment of an offence under that indulged in by other Hon. Members—(Hear,
the present Bill to a common informer ho could not hear)—and- would agree, he felt assured, to go on with
conceive. He defied any person to produce a precedent the discussion of the amendment of his Hon. and
to show that a great national offence, liable to a penalty Learned Friend. Ho agreed with the Hon. and Gallant
of this sort, was left to the prosecution of an informer. Admiral, that not only were the rules of the House
Tho offence was one of great notoriety, of great publi- made by gentlemen, but that every Member of that
city. What was that House? Was it not the Grand House was actuated by a gentlemanlike feeling, and he
Inquisition of the nation, armed with the authority to could not help thinking, although they had wasted
see that the persons who were entrusted with the execu- time, that the Hon. Member for Dublin and his friends
tion of the laws had performed their duty? And when would reconsider their determination, and, duly appre-
they were told by the Hon. Gentleman that we ought (dating the excellent tone adopted by the Noble Leader
to resort to the means of legislation, because the Attor- of that House, would consent to proceed with the busi-
ney- General had been found sleeping at his post, he ness before them.—(Hear, hear.)
would ask, where was the House of Commons during Mr. KEOGH quite agreed with the Hon. Member
that slumber?—(Hear, hear.) Had they not partici- for Bucks as to the temperate aid kind tone of the Noble
pated in his neglect?—and by this course which they Lord, but ho regretted that the Hon. Member had not
now proposed to take did they not show that they were called attention to the tone of another Hon. Member.
afraid that they would be parties in any proceeding The Hon. and Gallant Member said he had known tyrant
whidh the Attorney-General should originate? Accord- majorities and factious minorities, but the Hon. and
ing to thelangarsge of this clause, the information was Gallant Member was the Member of a party which had
not to be brought forward in the shape of a public action; never been very scrupulous, whether in a minority or a
but it was to be in the nature ot a private action. Now, majority, as to the opposition which they thought pro-
what could be more petty? The action was to recover per to give to measures with which they were dissatis-
-100/. as a debt due to the plaintiff; and this great fled. On a memorable occasion with which the Noble
national offence—the vindication of their national rode- Lord was perfectly familiar, he himself had taken part
pendence against a public affront given to them before in an opposition as obstinate—he would not use the
the eyes of all Europe—was to resolve itself into a pe- word intemperate—as any of which ho could complain;
nalty which was to be exacted by a private individual, and he would tell the Noble Lord that it would be vain
who was to ask the consent of the Attorney-General to to appeal to the temperate and kind manner which was
put this 1001. in his pocket. And that was the course so natural to him, if ho allowed his subordinates to in-
recommended by Hon. Members opposite, because, for- dulge in a tone so different from his own.—(Hear.)
sooth, they felt they should not enter into a course of Colonel KNOX (who rose amidst much noise and
petty penal legislation.—(Hear, hear.) Observe the confusion), said he had voted in the minority, feeling
danger of collusion by this proceeding. If the Attorney- confident that the discussion could not terminate that
General was soporific, and that a private individual came night; but was he, therefore, to be thus designated by
forward to discharge his duty, the moment he obtained the lion. and Gallant Admiral?—(Laughter.)
the consent of the Attorney-General he might show him- Admiral BERKELEY begged to assure the Hon. and
self to be a party not desirous of vindicating the law, and Gallant Colonel that he had made no complaint what-
might collude with the defendant, and the whole of the ever against him. But he had been kept there night
al tine ant the proceeding under it would be utterly after night listening to what he could hardly consider
beffl-d• They would have no control over the actions arguments proceeding from a particular quarter, and he
brought under such circumstances, which actions might thought he had some right to complain; but in making
be made a shield and means of evasion by the of- his complaint he had been guarded in his language.—_
fender, who would be enabled to sin against the law (Oh, oh.) He had certainly heard much strange lan-
with impunity. That would deserve not only the guage in that House, and he could only say, honestly
name of petty penal legislation, but would be a and conscientiously, thet in the language he had used,
blunder to which he hoped the House would not however strong it might be, he bad no intention of in-
commit themselves. Was it fitting or charitable suiting any man.—(Hear, hear.)
to put the happiness and comfort of Roman Catholics in After a few words from Mr. P. BUTLER,
such a condition—to place them at the mercy of the The Committee divided, when there appeared—
common informer and spies? Would that tend to the For the motion .
happiness of the community? The Bill had been sup- Against it...
ported by Hon. Members on his side of the House on the Majority against the Chair-
ground that it was a great vindication of our liberty and mein leaving the chair, —2ol
our constitution fromthat domination claimed by the Pope. On the opening of the gallery,
He hoped, therefore, the House would not permit a public Mr. SCULLY was objecting to proceeding any further
offence to be taken out of the hands of a public prose- at that late hour with the proviso.
cuter and plaited in the hands of an informer, whose only Mr. LAWLESS thought the language used by the
inducement would be to extract 1001. from eQn2O 4,11fQx., , ii9u, and Gallant Umber for %Neuter, which was