The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-08 00:00:00

lie t-----------------
to prohibit
th_ aid that he thought that not only oughtt we to
~,,
tto
PiOlllll,:rPtilh of f" '- ;cif "i'i7
''''s'(l,l rived troliin tile
„la_ the assumption of tiles
I'e °r any place in the United Kingdom. \Vim propo,4, therefore, by the clauses of this Bill agrees
Willi that suggestio'n • and, perha p
that when I informed the Archbishop ofs, Canterbury i
me o
n t
that i p
Itv.as not intended by the Government to institute a prosecn-
1'
he said, " I did not expect the Government would do
a°, but whist I do expect Is.tliat s.ome legislation should take
Place upon ing th,_ the subject." Sir, I think, therefore, that in deal-
e- Ls Ivey with respect to what I consider an insult to the
avaof this country, an interference with the rights of the
jad;zia...,hed Church of this country, and an
.attack upon the
hre,,'.!!"aeuee of the state, we are pursuinga right and
Which cOurse.—(Hear, ear.) By anotherll clhauvsee, toa
security Jo, have alluded, I think.. we
"possession,
a
titles 60,rftnat persons will not obtain possession, under these
(4,./:r 4Property which has been given to other objects.—
pr Do% et) 1. have now stated the effect of the Bill
.wheicnis.
tireji 114 introduce; the House will perceive it is
new
sYstero erent form the proposal of
the see with regard to our proceedings ybletthwienekn,
hat 1 Rome and this country.—( Hear, hear.) .
sehieever 'oily be our ultimate legislation upon this great
rneitietttr'ewe are not in a condition at present to frame
%any
have to .carrYing out that system. I thi9k that.muecche
ve(fil,
by the aePeild upon the spirit inkwhich legislation is r i roaitbeob.edience which is paid to it by the directions which
doubt given by him who has taken upon himself,.... no
p
represerte naturally and fairly, the responsibliity
clergy inWig at Rome the opinions of the Catholicßomanto
under-
take a this eaaritrY, and of inducing the Pope review of
their review of his recent measures, 4B • P9wer and condition.— (Hear, hear.) Thata individual
jectioltninthhis Own
0)11 at has power to remove a great part of the ob-
been felt to this assumption. If he wri.l
Fleallle,°l4" himself to the title which the P.ope.foliie
eas it-t.,.P.” for him.—(Cheers.) I should takeasiat,
for the's rd the welfare of this country:, if he h rlegard
best tile-ape:eelscommunion,the
and stability of the Catholic
the teiti e can take is to retrace his steps, and to renounce
tarry title 8e
he has assumed in this country, and rather.
at 44:11, t that which I believe was his original intention—
tention' at
011 e time he assured me it was—namely,
the in-
only a iit)f residing at Rome, and taking uponßuit Sir,
tf othe calliell title.— (Cheers and laughter.)
instil ~ eninleils should prevail, and if he should be]able to
eotirt":fti*aae of conquest, of ambition, or of revenge, into the
Itt„.a°w theZ, we May then, probably (thuouagh
us wsterucaggle.—
esear, heit..),ek for a long and arduous
shall take) With respect to that struggle,
.the part which
theehite Will be guided by that principle. which,
an
ter eal,WaYa gelded my conduct on this subject. I
biatl, aoliennes.,...t enjoyment- of religious liberty—(Cheers)—
,issiaati,..*"!lY opposed to any interference on threepa_arart....of
vNenewm"kwith the temporal supremacy of the j.
es _
I?eAtv.„ - Te""rit) Whenever I havyeen mother bo 1
lsaaaltia' laive seen in my own Church a- disposition
theto
erapotrera Which I thought were inconsistent with
"ea sloiltil),realacy that belonged to the State, I havel not
sv..tt'tg .1%4 urging myself and inducing othhersinteoasuarrgee.
when e'lln. Prevailing objections to any such to the 11,110Posal was made in the course of last year toh give
aottle7;;ln°Pe of the English Church a power which I.t ought
tide pee them control over the temporal well-being, and
as
ueing-Zer"Y of the clergy that proposal was rejected..
. colleague:2
my 'meet°
in princiPle, and succesefully rejected by
.r . Bat S. in. the place in which .it was pro-
otegt.,. , ir, if that was the case with regard to
latilt4B, who have expressed the utmost attach-
ebeklito freedom.
D if that is the case with regard to the
tlittreii' et .eligland, which is, I believe, of all Establish.t
the fes, the most tolerant, and the most consonant wit.
4ot to
m°lll of our institutions; if that be the case, shall it
ehtikh ore strongly as an objection to the effort of the
laity inet me to introduce the Pope's temporal sup.rae-
kt al " this country ?—(Cheers.) I cannot, Sir, forget tht
okiLlitill ancient times, but also in the must recenttimes,
44017 have been put
oursfoh on th art of Rome to
.all_
It haent and opposed to notions both moral and religious.
up "ell recent Pope who said that it was from the feu
oweifoi ef indifferentism had sprung the absurd, wild, and mad
gtantattti that freedom of conscience could be It
uittedte
as
Nut tista all persons in the state.—(Hear.
lialtakkibeitsiotatthaere has been kept uP in the Court
43
lt
is
cflußome
study such works as Guicciardini, De Thou,.
,leXie„raat and even among others I find that the Greek
1144„'1, of Scapula is a book prohibited to be read.-0
ttear...ter.) When I see these things in these times,
ans
ekie4it74 nave to religious liberty, so determinedof
doettielell, to books which contain, not any question
t•Plitetee out narratives which may be injurious to the
%ate °as of certain popes, I own that I fel a still
opiajoti dislike to the introduction of ultra-montane religious
otb841:1t? this coentry., Hear.) But then, as I tated
katiteett he faith
there is a total difference and distin.ct.ion.
"Y b,. Jele faith of Roman Catholics, as it was practised
,Itictre„,'ll Men in the t'mof our forefathers, and as it was
...teene-,,!"id believed l bey the eminent men who lived in
4 the I,`"a meat distinguished ornaments of the Churrcola.
evilte,,,ar, and that ultra-monmane doctrine, as it was p
eel ink 'hied by the Duke of Norfolk, which has been re-
hear. brought over to us from the Court of Rome. (Hear,
eon tLe admitting, therefore, a total liberty of
dif oLa Roman Catholics, I propose to this. House now,.t
the i Roman
shall do so on a future occasion, to resist
thritinroduction of those doctrines.— (Hear, hear.) I know
rtilarillitatiitbainvgictghis course we are liable to be misrepresented,
stood during a long contest exposed to pc),
teh,e Pi,111,11113;1 , exposed to exclusion from power on behalf of
-sat -"eges of Roman Catholics, it may now he said
l'fit/vi a. are changing our opinions and altering our views
Wow hataPect to the &man Catholics. But Ido not feel h
,l'es Were at all changed the opinion that the Roman Catho-
t'el lifertiatiaoatitled to be admitted to all the privileges of the
t::fi4,104 ,si,•n* My belief is, that those Acts,ofTestswaenrde
aEnaly-
ay i-nleh were passed in Charles 11. 's time
of
thedipoe4;resed, because there was a very justsuspicion
would loyal
Ir. and James 11., that intatthoenSlyovereign had
witatbselleeratat,_ eMPloy Roman Catholics,
,eied b aolics be employed, but that loyal Protestants
1,4 s be excluded S ch were I think, the grounds.of the
'liz --'''' in force,• Such were, I think, the grounds of the
• in force, and be it observed, that in the time ofe
4heth, When
and
could trust the Sovereign on
zeal
herons, ea
....... c you
as being animated with in
ttee ~,,,,?a an do now, .
nialitti"lProtestant Faith—(Loud cheers)—no such
"fte - 713 eXclusio as necessary, and I believe that our
Itokahla at the
uenwt moment augmented because loyal
Intl' tii-eAeatholicsPraesttached to the Throne and
itCteonstitution
d to seats
I,— the --rialtr3' can hold office and can be adm
feel that we are
--
,egiaiature.— (Hear, hear.)
tone,ley -.ore Powerful in entering thlis feel that we are
3' thsl Powerful in entering this contecontest, having
kat
that
at ;;Te made no exclusion on the grounds religion,
her)tiete— " we do make any exclusion now, it is Only in
cif the law and authority of our Sovereign.—(Hear,
I 1,
s 4.1,-- Link that with these feelings we may `44iesaalent of old said, the Parliament of the Roman
tkf •th ti Whichhey rfued to consent that
,_liata."ald, bathe been so free at all times, thq it
aCnwr oChwaa rit .
r 7 00(1-'11 in no earthly subjection, but immediately subjecte
...'role all things touching the regality of the sam
.'"it the s'ad to hone other, should be submitted to the Pope,aad
l'akilleejaWs and statutes of the realm by him defeated
higot '
ett his will, in perpetual distraction of the soye-
-4(1 otY the Ring, our lord, his crown, and his regality,
tlai p all his resins, which God forbid !"—(Cheers.)
at illiy, dinlinsent, the Roman Catholic Parliament of
rtenwnt
aid re„7lred " That they will stand with the same
Whiehbak", in those cases specially, and in all otherceastes
la all pluoili li be attempted against the' said crown and regal' y
takiti a ats With all their power." So say I; let us, too,
P°Wer..._gainst those attempts at all points, and with all our
On (I,olld cheers.)
"..iir.thite question being put,
41 OP
owriti 4._ —RUCK rose, but was for some moments inaudible
%el!, Le the Isola° of Members leaving the House. He pro-
broad te Say, the Noble Lord began by laying a foundation
eno
ilia - ligh for the large capital of legislation proposed by
g„. la
o the einher for Buckingham. He not only went back
4414 .haettnoat midst
ages, but had searched Europe through,
Dance, One through the history of Austria, of Russia, 0f...
,e. and of Holland for his Act, and, lastly,
~ a
„tad
the
its purpose rightly from the Noble Lord
'.'eseription, the Bill t h :
of England's
of
"a an Catholic
Ike Rom
faith
e introduced meant bishops of
s
should not call themselves bishop
kai„Yl Place in the three kingdoms, or in any part of her
tal,i,ree, ittdttinliollB--[Lord J. Russell—No; only
-"en bia,----..l—and that any property left to them as
in the
stipor,,:re.Pa should be forfeited to the Crown. heThuss
of `rest' 1.1 a Roman Catholic were to call himself Archbishop
law; I,ll.4:tipster he would be subject to the penalties of the
stet ti,u_a, if he were to call himself Archbishop in Westmin-
of th‘4e law would be inoperative. That was the whole suns Noble itl...e_attire. With all the substructure laid down by the
vaillinicillon ;the entirely concurred. There was no strong.
ris respect to ecclesiastical power and ambition to
, Roehe-iti Nd,,oble Lord had give utterance in which he (Mr
-aunior, 1,, not agree; but there was one broad fallacy
Word
Cautrough every argument he had used. The.Nob,lee
Aeinerl Catall along applied himself to countries in which tn
e,o4a,_holic religion was established, but there was one
teletiolfa where the Roman Catholic religion stood in such a
toteallentistuati the State that the law did not lend its peculiara
iiasistance. It woe, like ourselves,. governed by
With all 11.1 P.
3,11.,c1 Yet th
tues,rin.ging from a deeply-laid faith, and imbued
mums spirit which distinguished us 1640,
n''`' on an witt ee: alatrY looked on. a Roman Catholic just as she
'glen. ---4—PlecoPalian, or on the professor of any other F
• a u Wa.
dietsSpect ; it . not a country on which you could look with
°III' laaguave .not
a country of 25,000,000 people speaking
...A lay h)—
l'acl it woe, . 4 was not afraid of the Pope—(
ot° avoid --th.. graas omission on the part of the Noble Lord
sold
10
elibe;_al.9 case which bore any similarity to our own.
;gall Fru.- w''''g he more widely from another
distinguished
'anti f —lie° rant
England, or than Catholic Eng-
ot Anrotn Protestant Enand ? The law of France,
teasot -
Stria, and of Prusslis was right, for these
Folite47that the Catholic religion established by law
laid
itifcliblPi!t7 ated the power of the Pope and the To.pe.'s.
' 48 an essential element of their faith
I)l4ir to the quotations made by the Noble Lord from Me.
kilos,-1; 1,,11y one who had read Pascal or Ainaud must haevs_
eery fortnat in the struggle for Galilean liberty it was nee e
,itau to r„,,th.m to protest against the assumptions of the. Pope,
„would h-Q. uit, because if they hind not so protested his actor
,TeSe 'Ye become the law of the land. The reason I. e vatholweeatitions ceased when the country ceased to
en.
ing tc,'l,.. The Noble Lord had 'declared the Pope's proceed
Prero a eil insult to England, rend an encroachment on the
_
Nigativee of
A the Crown, and on the rights and liberties of
or its
the 44111:11421:4, 143 Bill therefore had f object to defend
u1ai0....'-`1:13 Prerogative, to wipe away the insult, and to
4itlocehlerortile liberty and indepeus lence of the country. The
comned that dthe Poe had not put himself
with un
ra e
Gov.,Micationplai with the Governtmepnt of Great Britain and
hit t..„
l-.ol'd- Vernment of Ireland. If he (Mr. Roebuck) had
Lieutenant, and a Catholic Bishop had applied to
eieelyt ad,,:liee, he would have said thathe looked on him pre-
ae he fa,-
.s`", a same light as a Wesle, ran priest, that he might do
' -- thee,--Zw, but that he, the Lord-Lieutenant, knew him not,
Powe: "a Might be cardinal or archbishop, but he had no
(14;', under the law, and was not recognized by it.—
Woul-tf'Dear.) Had Cardinal Wiseman been so treated,
1444 -.-aglaud have been less .fr ee ? )Then the Noble
that, talked of the conduct of our• ancestors, he would say
to.--...h'e laeri the Pope was indee d a power, and could
*lte °gland and the Monarch oat the throne. tremble, it
a a ilecessarY, and it was glorious, to see Parliament stand
4 --gainst his power; but now theet he was supported y
• migtrilp'enhell baYonets, that he was in much a state that Englarned.
ht go far by negotiations to have that small army
ace
of th ' and theu the Pope would be a vagabond on the fsre. ehe e earth—(A laugh) -he did not we the word di
4-ecittallY, he meant merely t the
a man
wandering
about the
him surprising that the Noble Lord should
he. (1...-it was to him surprising that the Noble Lord s
at It.thought fit to introduce his Bill to meet a thing which.
at a la time of day ought to be met with ridicule and by in
it,r_cting the people —(Hear, hear.) Let them depend on
eilie Act would only rivet the yhke they seeked to remove,_
was'i would tend to make men's min ds more obedient to it. It
..._all very well to say that if a . man pronounced an e...-
'}-)...%ilinnication or published a bull he should be punishable
ti.Y: ' wi but let them follow one step further. Suppose the
akiest who bad excommunicated NN'at, punished by law, and
jar Baid," I will not absolve," w hat were you to do ? He
quo • Roebuck) would accept the very case of Sardinia
_tedoby the Noble Lord, as an illustration, though it was
yath olio country, of the source whence the
_power of the
viltillt wile derived. Wm it from the haw ? NQ; but-it was