The Sun.
London, England, 1834-03-19 00:00:00

THE PENSION LIST.

Mr. HARVEY said that he had been waiting
for an open day to bring forward his promised mo-
tion relative to the pension list. He would now give
notice that he should bring it forward on the sth M,iy,
and he trusted that he should be afforded an opportunity of
doing so.

Lord ALTHORP was understood to say that he would
afford the hon. member every opportunity in his power.

DISSENTERS-ENGLAND.

Sir G. STAUNTON presented petitions from the
Dissenters of Righy and Throop, is Hampshire, Nunea-
ton, Rugby, and Atherstone, Warwickshire, praying for
relief. . _

Mr. MILDNIAY presented a petition from the Dis-
senters of Winchester, to the same effect.
Mr. BRISCOE presented a petition from the Dim-
staters of York Chapel, Walworth, to the same effect.

Sir GEORGE GREY presented a petition from Tre-
gony, relative to the Reform
Mr. RICE TREVOR presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Llangavon, for a repeal of the malt tax.
111 r. PLUMPTRE moved for a return of the minutes
to be laid on the table of the courtmartial held on Cap-
tain Aitcheson.

Lord SANDON presented two petitions for the better
observance of the Sabbath Day from Chester and its
neighbourhood.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from the dis-
senters of Castletown, praying for relief.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the Speaker do not
issue his warrant for a new writ for the borough of
Carrickfergus before the 3d of May.
Mr. LEONARD gave notice that he would move for
certain returns on the 25th of March.
A MEMBER presented a petition from Wootton Under-
lodge, praying for relief to the Dissenters.
COMPULSORY PAYMENT OF CHURCH RATES.
Mr. DIVETT, after presenting two petitions from
Dissenters, praying for relief, brought forward his motion
for the extinction of compulsory payment of church rates
throughout England and Wales. That subject, which he
had placed on the books of the house at the latter end
of last session, and renewed this session, was of a
most momentous nature. He would be obliged to claim
a large share of that indulgence of the house which was
always granted to those who so very seldom trespassed
upon its attention. From the first time that he bad paid any
attention to the subject o f the compulsory payment of church
rates, he had always looked upon it as a subject of great
grievance, and although he felt grateful to his Majesty's
ministers for the beneficial reforms which they had intro-
duced, he felt also that now was the time when they
ought to remove the grievances under which the dia.
'enters laboured. The opinion of the house ought now
to be given upon this subject with a view to its
final adjustment.—(Hear.) The meaning of his mo-
tion was exclusively for the abolition of church rates,
but it was connected with many other burdens under
which Dissenters laboured, and it was also mixed up with
church reform. The noble earl at the bead of his Ma-
jesty's government had been reported to say in another
place that he would resist the vain attempt to
abolish the compulsory payment of church-rates as he
would resist the attempt to separate church and state.
He (Mr. D.) deeply regretted that determination, for so
far from its having a tendency to uphold the connection
between church and state, it would tend more than any
thing else to its separation. The house was aware that in
the course of the last two months there bad been a very
increasing disposition, not only on the part of the Dis-
senters, but also on the part of members of the established
church, to do away with church rates altogether, and
that feeling bad been growing for several years past.
He believed that one great cause of the present ter, ng
feeling on the part of the dissenters, arose from a measure
so far back as the year 1819. In that year an act passed
through the house, which granted one million for the
building of churches.—(Hear.) This was paid equally
by the dissenters and the churchmen ; but in many
districts when the dissenters exceeded in number the
members of the established church, they were not only
taxed with this million to build churches, but incurred a
constant tax to keep those churches in repair. This was
a very strong ground of complaint on the part of Dis-
senters.—(Hear.) It was but right to state the amount
paid for church rates, which he was enabled to do from a
return of the local taxation ending March, 1827. The
church rates were there stated to amount to 564,0001.,
which formed a very important item of the whole
amount of the local taxation of the country.—
(Hear, hear.) The sum thus received was according
to the account expended in the following manner :—The
account did not go into detail, but stated in round
numbers—for the repair of churches 248,0001., organs
and bells 41,0001., bread and wine 16,000/., salaries
to clerks and sextons 126,0001.—(Hear, hear.) This
appeared to him to be a most serious extravagance,
and extremely impolitic, as being not only disgusting to
the feelings of the Dissenters, but extremely injurious to
the establishment. In calling for the abolition of this
cess, he might be asked with very great propriety
how he proposed to make up for it. His opinion
was, that it was not at all right to charge any man
of another religion for the support of a religion from which
be dissented. It was said that it would be impossible to
maintain the church upon those terms; but let it be re-
collected that the dissenters bad now 8,000 places of wor-
ship, and that they raised a sum of not less than one
million a year, by voluntary contributions, for the
maintenance of their respective churches.—(Hear, hear.)
He should be able to show that the sum raised by Dis-
senters for Missionary and other purposes far t xceeded
that raised by the establishment. In discussing this
question, he was anxious to separate it altogether from the
question of tithes, for anxious as he was to remove an
unjust in position upon the Dissenters, he did not
wish to touch that property which our ancestors
destined should remain for the support of religion.—
(Hear.) He knew there was no disposition to do
away with the sinecures in the church. He did not wish
to attack the church, but at the same time he thought
the money thus consumed ought to be applied to other
purposes. There appeared to be 300,000/. per annum
ostensibly applied to the support of divine service in ca-
thedrals, and in fact the real amount was much larger.
In the case of the cathedral at Exeter 12,000/. per
annum was provided, and he understood from good
authority that if the property from whence that sum was
derived was let at a rack rent, it would produce 70,000/.
There were many instances of such property being
appropriated to the views of individuals, and in such
a way as to beggar the successor and frustrate tt e original
object. With regard to the progress of dissent, it would
be found to be considerably greater in Wales than the pro-
gress of the establishment. In the last six months 73,000/.
had been raised in Wales for purposes of religious worship.
The progress of dissenters hail been very great; the num-
ber of chapels increased, the congregations that frequented
them became more numerous, and with their num-
bers the feelings of hostility to the establishment
always kept place.—(Hear.) Nothing could do more
to conciliate the good wishes of the dissenters, and to
avert their hostility from the established church, than by
according such claims as were just, but notwithstandiug
their justice the concession would be received with
gratitude.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Nothing would tend
more to the interest of the church, or to fix its own
stability than by extending the rights that were demanded ;
for in all extensive parishes and large towns there was a
hostile feeling towards the church, which, though growing
stronger every day, it was not impossible to lessen if not
remove. He claimed the indulgence of the house while he
was trespassing on their patience ; but he had received many
papers at so late an hour that evening, that it was impos-
sible foe him to arrange them so as to come at the infor-
mation they contained with any degree of facility.
He, for his own part, would entreat of that house
most earnestly to reform the whole church by removing
the grounds of complaint. Inroads were made every day
on the church by the dissenters. Let hon. members look
back to the time of the reformation. Let them consider
whether the Roman Catholic religion was not apparently
as strong, at least it was in temporal power, as the
established religion of those kingdoms, and still the
strong current of public opinion came on rapidly, and
taught them at the time that practice at variance with
the spirit of Christianity could not stand against it. The
established church was situated as the catholic religion was
at the timeof the reformation, as regarded abuses. He would
remind them that what was possible then was equally so
now ; and the dissenters were not less zealous or less
effectual in restoring Christianity to its original principles.
He was happy to see better feeling springing from the
the universities upon this subject.—(Cries of " Hear.")
Within the last few hours he had been informed that
a petition signed by fifty-four out of 150 of the
heads of the University of Cambridge had been forwarded
praying that the claims of the Dissenters to be admitted
to the Universities of England be taken into the favour-
able consideration of that house.—(Loutrcries of " Hear,
hear.") That formed a strong contrast to the University
of Oxford which had in the year 1829 rejected the
right honourahle baronet whom he did not then see
in his place, in consequence of his having declared
himself friendly to civil and religious liberty—( Hear)—
and had, during the present year, elected as its chancellor
a noble duke whom, he supposed, was the only person
they could get to represent their an•iquated opinions.—
(Laughter and Hear.) He (Mr. D ) had brought for-
ward his motion without any wish to excite ill feelings
on either side. His object was to relieve the people
from the grievances which they justly complained ef, and
without which it would be impossible to have peace or
tranquillity in the country. There was one obstacle, he
feared, to this happy consummation, arising from the
indisposition of the clergy to give up any portion of the
fees to which they considered themselves entitled. A
striking example of this he would mention. An act had
passed fur erecting a cemetery at an expense of 40,000/,
in the parish of —. The clergyman of the parish,
however, had refused to suffer the interment of a corpse
in it without payment of the customary fees for burial in
the parish. churchyard. He would no further detain ti e
house, but would come at once to the resolution which it
was his intention to move, namely, " That in the opinion
of that louse it was just and expedient that some effectual
measures should be kadopted for the entire abolition of

the compulsory payment of ch arch rates in England and
Wales."—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HALL seconded the motion. Ile was by no means
the advocate of a separation between church and state, and
from his knowledge of the great body of dissenters residing
in the county which he had the honour to represent, he
was persuaded that their object was not to bring about
that separation, but to obtain the redress of the numerous
practical grievances under which they laboured. The in-
crease of the dissenters was exceedingly rapid. In two
parishes in Monmouthshire, 21 new dissenting chapels had
within a short period been erected, and no less a sum than
11,000/. was annually raised in those parishes by voluntary
contributions on the part of the dissenters. The present
question of the church rates was a most important one, and
he hoped that the noble lord, if he did not assent to the
proposition of his hon. friend, would at least announce the
disposition of his Majesty's government to take such
measures as might prove satisfactory at once to the great
body of dissentere, and to the country generally.
Lord ALTHORP begged to state, with respect to the
declaration attributed to his noble friend Earl Grey--
namely, that he was as much prepared to support the
continuance of church rates as he was prepared to support
the continuance of the union of church and state—he was
perfectly satisfied, both from his knowledge of the opinions
of his noble friend in particular, and from his knowledge
of the opinions of his Majesty's government generally, that
it was quite impossible that his noble friend could have
made such a declaration.—(Hear, hear.) He entirely
concurred with the hon. gentleman opposite in the opinion,
that the question of church rates rested on very different
grounds than the question on tithes. But hoping, as he
did, that the motion that he had given notice it was his
intention to make would prove generally satisfactory, and
as notice of that motion was on the hooks of the house,
given by a member of his Majesty's government, not
merely in the form of a resolution, but as a proposition
for an effective practical measure, he thought the house
would allow that it was not desirable, under such cir-
cumstances, that be (Lord Althorp) should either affirm
the principle of the present motion, or meet it with a
negative. It was his intention, therefore, to move the
previous question upon it. But the existence of church
rates was not the only grievance of which the Dissenters
complained. Other grievances had been mentioned by
the hon. gentleman who had preceded him; and he
(Lord Althorp) felt it to be desirable, in the present state
of the question, and in the present state of the feeling of
the country, that be should not be entirely silent on the
subject. (Hear, hear, hear.) The first question
agitated by the Dissenters was, that of the payment of
church rates ; the second, the forms of marriage ; the
third, the establishment of a general registration (the ab-
sence of which, although inconvenient to all classes, pressed
more heavily on the Dissenters than any other); and the
fourth, free admission into the Universities. To these he
had been reminded by a right hon. friend, that he ought
to add the privilege of burying in the church yards of the
established religion, without the payment of fees. He
would apply himself first to the last mentioned of these
subjects. He was sure he need not remind the house how
strongly the people of this country felt on all matters con-
nected with the interment of the dead, and how desirable,
therefore, it might be to find, if possible, some other
remedy for the grievance of which the Dissenters com-
plained, than any interference with the church yards be-
longing to the established church. With respect to the
establishment of a general register, lie had already an
"Jounced to the house •hat it was the wish of his Majesty's
government that some measure of that kind might be
practically accomplished. His noble friend, the Paymaster
of the Forces, had submitted to his Majesty's government
a plan upon the subject; but, after having considered it
very attentively, it had appeared to them, that if they
made any hurried proposition on the subject, it was so full
of difficulties that the probability was, that it would not
give satisfaction to the country. Since that period his
hon. friend, the member for Southwark, bad given notice
of a motion upon the subject of registration. What that
motion was, lie (Lord Althorp) knew not; but he should
be very glad if his hon. friend could triumph over the
various difficulties which beset the question. But
although he thought that at present the machinery for car-
rying into effect such a proposition could not easily be
contrived, be nevertheless hoped that when the other great
measure which his Majesty's Government had given notice
it was their intention to introduce—be meant the mea-
sure for the regulation of the poor-rates—should be
brought forward, it might not be found impracticable to
apply the machinery of that measure to the measure of a
general registration.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The appoint-
ment of officers for a general registration alone would be
attended with great difficulty, and greater expense ; but
if the duties of such officers were annexed to the duties of
the officers employed to carry into effect the measure for
the regulation of the poor-rates, the object in view might
perhaps be desirably accomplished. He could only say,
however, that his Majesty's Government would attempt to
make some arrangement with respect to that important
question, and with every hope that they might be able to
succeed. O❑ the subject of dissenters' marriages, his noble
friend the Paymaster of the Forces had introduced a bill
which, however, did not appear likely to give satisfaction
to the parties concerned. He (Lord Althorp) was very
much of opinion that this part of the subject could not be
satisfactorily arranged, unless the arrangement were
founded on some general system of legislation upon the
subject; it being difficult suddenly to frame such a system,
his Majesty's Government had thought it better to bring
forward the measure which had been proposed. The ob-
jections raised again-,t it had, however, been much greater
than could have been anticipated : and if it should be
found that those objections could not be obviater', his Ma-
jesty's Government would, of course, not persevere with
the bill.—( Hear, hear, hear.) With respect to the
admission of dissenters to the Universities, his honour..
able friend, the mover of the present question, hid
said that he bad just heard that a petition had been
signed by a number of the members of the University
of Cambridge in favour of their admission. He (Lord
Althorp) was happy to say that he had heard the same
thing, and also that some of the most eminent names in
the University of Cambridge were attached to the petition.
—(Hear, hear.) He would at once say, that as far as
his opinion went, he could see no objection whatever to
the admission of dissenters into the universities. He knew
it would be a great relief to the dissenters ; he felt confi-
dent it would be very advantageous to the universities ; and
he was unable to see how it could possibly interfere with
the Established Church.—(Hear, hear.) With these
opinions, however, and thinking it most desirable that such
mea.uses might be adopted as would do justice to the par-
ties in question, he hoped that the matter would not be
pressed too hastily forward, but that sufficient confidence
would be placed by the dissenters in the disposition of his
Majesty's Government and the house to adopt such mea-
sures as might, on a deliberate view of the whole case, be
considered most advantageous to all parties. With respect
to the immediate subject of the abolition of church.rates,
he would not enter upon it, as he had given notice of his
intention to bring forward a motion respecting it.
Mr. WILKS was glad to bear the noble lord state the
intention of his Majesty's government, if possible, to in-
corporate into the system of poor rates, which they were
about to propose, an arrangement which might afford the
means of effecting a local registration in parishes. After
the noble lord had stated that he hoped the measure
respecting church rates which it was his intention to pro-
pose would prove satisfactory, and that he thought it
wou d prove satisfactory, he (Mr. Wilks) did not think
that it would be judicious on the part of the dissenters to
press forward that question themselves. The period
would soon arrive at which the proposition of the noble
lord would be opened. It was evident that the question
of church rates was with the dissenters a question of
principle rather than of money, for the whole sum amounted
but to 600,0001., spread over 14,000 parishes. That
UM, however, the dissenters ought not to continue to pay,
and he had great confidence in his Majesty's ministers
that in the measure about to be proposed on the subject
they would entirely relieve the Protestant dissenters from
a charge so unjust.

Mr.GOULi3URN alluded to the admission of Dis-
senters into the universities. He did not know till that
evening, that any of the members of the University which
he had the honour to represent, had signed a petition for
the admission of dissenters into the universities. He bad
not seen this petition; and of course Lie could not presume
to impugn the vie, s and motives of the petitioners. But
this he would say that if the hon. gentleman and the
noble lord meant to assert that the university of Cam-
bridge generally was favourable to the admission of dis-
senters to the universities, to that assertion he was pre-
pared to give the most decided contradiction. If that
admission were to be forced on the universities, his duty
and his feelings would induce him to give it every oppo-
sition. But if it could be arranged in such a shape as
might meet with the concurrence of the universities, he
should then consider its merits, and express his opinion
accordingly.

Sir ROBERT INGI,IS said, was the house prepared
to bring the church of England down• from the situation
which it at present occupied ? The church rates were
opposed by the dissenters only because their existence was
a r, cognition of the church by the State. It was not
the burden of money, but the burden of this distinction,
which the dissenters wished to throw off. With respect
to the admission of the dissenters to the universitie.,, lie
trusted the noble lord would re-vonsider the opinion which

he bad expressed in favour of that admission. As to the
petition from the university of Cambridge, it was signed
by only a small minority—by not a third of those who
were present. The church-rates were taxes not on reli-
gion, but on property. He would not, however, touch
further on that subject at present, but would reserve what
he had to say upon it until a future opportunity.
Mr. BRISCOE concurred with the noble lord,not only
that it was not desirable to press this question to a division
but that it was not desirable to occupy the time of the
house by discussing it at the present moment. It was
much more satisfactory that such a measure should ema-
nate from his Majesty's government than from any private
individual. He was a member of the church of England,
but he was quite ready to express his conviction of the
impropriety, injustice, and impolicy of requiring those
who differed from the doctrines of the church of England
to pay the church of England rates. He hoped the mea-
sures which were in contemplation by his Majesty's go-
vernment would he satisfactory ; and he was sure that
nothing but the complete relief of the dissenters, would
prove so.
Mr. BAINES could not forget that there was a time
when another religion was the established religion of this
country, and when the members of the university might
object to the admission of Protestants. Those times were
past, and he trusted the day would soon come when free
admission to the universities would be given to all persons.
In his own family there was an instance of the great
injustice practised towards those who conscientiously dif-
fered from the establishment, a member of it after five
years' study, having been obliged to forego the benefits of
the college to which he belonged, because he could not,
consistently with his notions of right, comply with that
test, without which he was ineligible to the honours.
Now, he thought this was a great hardship on all dis-
senters. He fully agreed with the bon. member for Bos-
ton, that the grievance as to church rates was not in the
amount, but in the principle ; and he sincerely hoped
that the measure to be introduced by the noble lord (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not fall short of an
entire relief from such objectionable imposts. —(Hear,
hear.) As to the marriage bill introduced by the
noble lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, he must
entirely object to it, because it placed dissenters in some
certain degree inferior to other persons, by making
them do that, in conjunction with others, which they
considered, and justly considered, they were entitled
to do in their own right. He hoped these things
would be altered—that Ministers would so frame their
measures that they should have a gracious aspect in the
eyes of the country, and prove a real and substantial boon
to the dissenters.--(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") No
body of mess bad rendered more essential service to his
Majesty's Ministers than the dissenters—(Cheers)—no
body of men had done so much fur the cause of civil and
religious freedom— (Cheers)—no b >dy of men bad such
strong claims upon the benefaction of Government and
the support of the country as they had.—(Continued
cheers.) He would conclude by expressing his opinion,
that as the dissenters had ro pay their share of the pur-
chase money whenever a cemetery was formed, it was not
unreasonable in them to require that they should be;
allowed to bury their dead according to the rites of their
own church, and not according to one to which they
entertained conscientious objections.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SINCLAIR could never support the proposition ,
of the bon. member for Exeter.

Mr. O'CONNELL said this was a plain question, but
one involving a great principle—that no one Christian
sect should be compelled to maintain another, and be
should give his vote so as to forward and strengthen that
great principle—the vote being founded on the common.
sense view of the matter.—(Hear.) In the Dublin Mil-
versi,y, Catholics had been enabled to take their degrees
for some time past, and the Protestant dissenters had been
entitled to do so for some years previously, and yet the
students who belonged to the establishment had never
been injured, or evoi annoyed by such a practice. Such
distinctions were, in his opinion, quite superfluous,
and the sooner they were done with the better. Instead
of the dissenters living in hope, as they bad been con-
tented to do so long and so fruitlessly—instead of their
relying on others who only played with them—they
should pursue a different course, they should take the
matter in their own hands; what they "hoped" for from
others they should "do" fur themselves ; they should
give a long pull, and a strong pull, and a pull altogether,
and the matter would be settled as quickly and as quietly
as possible.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was quite as willing as the
hon. member for Leeds to give the dissenters their due
meed of praise. He certainly had ever found them the
friends of civil and religious liberty, and they had ever
found his Majesty's ministers, whether in office or out of
office, the advocates of their rights, and willing to relieve
them from every thing which bore the semblance of grie•
vance. They had fought for them on great principles;
and even on this, an inferior question, they were anxious
for an arrangement which would prove satisfactory. The
hon. member for Leeds asserted that the bill, which lie
had the honour to introduce, made the dissenters inferior
to the members of the church. Now he (Lord John
Russell) thought they viewed his bill in an over-jealous
spirit, 'for it was never intended, nor was the bill so
framed, as at all to make them inferior. Those who in-
scanced the Quakers, and thought the dissenters could be
legislated for on the same grounds as that peculiar but
amiable sect, greatly undervalued the real difficulties of
the question. At the same time he must say, that in his
opinion they would never• arrive at any thing like sound
legislation till they established a national registration—
(Cheers)—a complete, compu:sory, and civil registration.
—(Cheers.) He could assure the hon. member for Exe-
ter, that as those now composing the government of the
country were in early time eager for the concession of the
leading claims of the dissenters, so now their wish was
not in the least abated, to see them in the full enjoyment
of every inferior right to which they were entitled, and
he for one should ever promote their cause as long as it
was identified with that of civil and religious liberty,
always reserving to him,elf the right to maintain that
which was attended with so many national benefits—the
established church of the realm.—(Hear, hear.)

Dr. LUSHINGTON said, it was impossible to suppose
the noble lord (Althorp) would be satisfied with proposing
to the house merely a diminution in the amount of church
rates, for that would be to suppose him utterly ignorant of
the feelings of the people in general, and of the Protestant
dissenters more.particularly. In his judgment, after what
had fallen from the noble lord, the dissenters had nothing
to fear on this particular point, for it was well known that
his noble friend was not one ignominiously to shrink from
his professions.—(Hear.) He knew that the majority of
members of that house were favourable to the just claims
of the dissenters—(Hear)—and if a cause for doubt should
hereafter arise, their votes would soon decide the question ;
and he therefore would advise them to wait for the propo-
sition of the noble lord, satisfied that they would obtain
that which they were entitled to—entitled to in the eyes
of both God and man.

Mr. DIVETT siid, after the declaration of the noble
lord (Althorp) he should, with the permission of the house,
beg leave to withdraw his motion.—Withdrawn accord-
ingly.
GOVERNMENT OF PARISHES.

Colonel EVANS, in asking for leave to bring in a
" Bill for the better Government of Pari.bes in England
and Wales," said that, considering the taxation of a parish
in this county frequently amounted to more than the entire
revenue of a secondary state, he thought no objection could
be made to any plan which might have a chance of
amending the present system.
Lord ALTHORP said, that though perhaps it might
be better to wait for the general measure which would
spring out of the proposed reform of the poor laws, lie
should not object to the bringing in of the bill.—Leave given.