The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-04 00:00:00

WVENI G

Mr. V. SMITH thought that a sufficient case had not
been made out for the appointment of three ushers aid
trainbearers. _He hod heard no reason for fixing the
salaries of these new judges at 6,0301, a year. With re-
gard to the suitors' fund and fee tired, he thought the
fdlaincellor of the Exchequer should make some state-
ment on the subject. He would have greater hope of a
thorough reform in Chancery, if a majority of the com-
missioners were not members of the bar.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the trainbearers were to dis-
charge the ordinary duties of judges' messengers. He
thought the salaries proposed by the Bill were just. and
that the management of the suitors' thud was also in
accordance with proper principles.
Sir J. GRAHAM considered that, however high the
functions of the proposed judges, it was the best policy
to have the office of Lord Chancellor always preserved as
the highest reward of the profession. He wiehed to know
what had become of the Bill of last year, which had bean
promised on the recommendation of the Committee?
Lord J. RUSSELL Laid that as Treat changes might
take place with regard to the official salaries, he did not
wish to remodel the duties while a Commission was sit-
ting on the subject.
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Sir H. Willoughby,
the Solicitor-General and Mr. Henley, the blanks in
clause 18 were agreed to be filled up with the sums
4001. for secretary's salary, 2501. for usher, 1004 for
trainbearer, and 401, for an interior officer.
The clause as amended was then agreed to.
Clause 19, being a new clause, was postponed, and
clause 20 agreed to. t
Sir J. GRAHAM wished to know whether any pro-
vision was to be made relative to the judges having seats
in that House—a point upon which he had differed from
the Noble Lord on a former occasion?
Lord J. RUSSELL said these offices being new ones,
according to the Act of Anne, they could not sit in Par-
liament.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL then proposed a clause.
suggested by the Hon. Member for Newark, providing
for the continuous sittings of those judges, which was
brought up and added to the Bill.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro-
gress, and the third reading fixed for Monday next.
The Committee on the Inhabited House Duty Bill was
postponed till Monday.
Mr. HUME gave notice of a motion for a Committee
of the whole House, in order to move certain amendments
on this Bill.
Mr. DISRAELI thought it was but fair that Hon.
Members should have an opportunity of introducing such
motions as they thought fit upon that Bill.
WOODS AND FORESTS BILL.
Lord SEYMOUR then moved that the House should
go into Committee on this Bill.
Lord DUNCAN said he would move the instruction
to the Committee which he had carried in the early part
of March, in the shape of an amendment cn the fourth
clause.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought there ought to be
some informatioa given to the House with respect to that
Bill, which had passed its other stages at such late hours
that no discussion could take place upon it.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the offices of Works end
Woods and Forests had been blended together some years
ago; and certain inconvenience having been the result,
it was contemplated to remove them by that Bill. It
was thought trait the office of Works should be one de-
pertmrnt, represented by a Member in that House, who
would bring forward estimates and transact the business
fur the service of the revenue.
Mr. TR,ELAWNY was understood to object to the
Bill, as not going properly into the grievances with which
it proposed to deal. The abuses which existed in the
Woods and Forests department were numerous and
well known. It would be found by reference to the
papers before the House that out of 26,000 acres in the
New Forest, nothing had been derived tor the last ten
years; and several other large forests and tracts of land
had been equally unproductive.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE said the more be considered the
suhject the more be was satiz lied of the mismanagement
of the Crown property. Whet was wanted was gold
management, and he was afraid that the Bill would
not supply that want. He eid not think the principle
of the Bill would satisfy the country, es it would leave
the management a mere Treasury affair. The country
would, no doubt, be satisfied with separate boards, with
boards independent of the Treasury; but he was sure the
Bill would accomplish neither the one nor-the other.
Sir C. BURRELL said, with regard to the New Fo-
rest, unless care was taken to keep cattle out, the young
trees would be irretrievably damaged. He thought it
would be advisable to sell the injudicious land lots rather
than to enclose them. He was satisfied it would fetch a
considerable sum of money.
Mr. GOULBURN said the Bill went no further than
to improve the Crown lands and to improve the manage-
ment. He thought the Bill ought to have been more
definite in its details. Before the House passed the Bill
let them make up their minds which system they would
have, as the Bill appeared to contain two systems.
Lord SEYMOUR would reply to the objections. The
first objection was as to the unsatisfactory condition of
the New Forest. He had done what he could to re-
medy that complaint by bringing in Bills, and a Bill
Was now before a Committee up sta4s, which, if carried
out, would simplify the system, and do away with the
complaints against it. The next objection was, that the
New Forest did not supply timber for the navy. He was
on a Committee on that subject, and a letter from the
Admiralty in 1833 was laid before them. In that letter
the Admiralty waived the right to select timber from
the New Forest, and recommended that no more timber
should be cut. The Admiralty also recommended that
no timber should be cut in the Royal forests that was '
not going into a state of decay.. Now, if they were not
to cut timber till it was going to a state of decay, and,
of course, useless, they were not to blame that the de-
partment did not make money of its timber. It was an
unfortunate recommendation, as timber which was going
back, which meant going to decay, was worthless; and
under that system it was impossible the Royal forests
Hasoyutshearnt at
hney yf
oeraersst, a andhatdh ere
m af odree
could produce revenue. That letter had been before the
p he
ra
tr: I yo
ffati
hr
etior
n"o wparO
timber. Next, as to the accounts. He had read a Mr.
Anderson's letter, showing that the accounts were in
a bad state. For two years Mr. Anderson had
been employed in arranging the accounts. He had
completed his arrangement, and nothing could now be
more complete than the statement of the receipts and
expenditure. If they looked into the accounts they
would see they were prepared on Mr. Anderson's plan and
recommendation. Therefore as far as the question of the
New Forest and the accounts went, they were completely
answered. It had been said that the forests led to great
law expenses. No doubt they did, and that was the
reason why he brought in a Bill to establish a new set
of rules, and to put the system on a better footing. The
Flom Member opposite said this was a Treasury Bill. I
Now, he thought the best mode of securing good ma-
nagement in a department was to put it under Treasury
control, us the Treasury was responsible for the expen-
diture. With regard to the complaint that there were
two suggestions in the Bill, he admitted the Bill did
permit the adoption of an alternative system. He had
introduced a clause with the view of effecting an im-
provement in the lands revenue. He wished to have a
surveyor as a general manager, and a practical land
sut veyor under him as his deputy, who was to travel
over the property and bring back information ES to its
capabilities and condition, for it was impossible that
any one in an office could otherwise obtain such in-
formation respecting a property which was spread over
forty c mnties. As to the general character of the
Bill, the great object it had in view was to facilitate
the understanding of the complicated accounts. There
were so many thousand items that it was difficult
to understand the accounts. If he wished to
give a proof of the errors into which persons
might fall, be would instance the statement of the Hon.
Member for Bath, who, in speaking of the land revenue
law expense, said the solicitors' bills amounted in seven
years to 79,0001. This at the time he thought was more
than the usual Parliamentary exaggeration; and he after-
wards looked into toe accounts, and so far from finding
that the sum was 79,0001., he found that more than halt
the charge was for purchases of land for metropolitan
and other improvements. There must be legal expenses
in making these improvements. The House would have a
park made— say at Battersea. Here was a little specimen
of what the lawyer had to do. The rights were endless,
and conflicting; when placed on paper they looked like
a tailor's pattern card. The Noble Lord created some
amusement by unfolding the plan of Battersea-Park,
in which scores of small properties were marked out
belonging to different owners, the rights and value of
which had to be determined by legal investigation.
The House said, " You must make this park, and deter-
mine all these rights, but don't let us have any law ex-
penses." All he could say was, that like his predecessors
he must incur law expenses, and all he could promise
was to keep them within reasonable limits.
Lord DUNCAN, in explanation, said he had taken
his figures from the returns. It was the returns that
were to be blamed if any mistake had occurred.
Mr. IMAM said the question was one of great im-
portance. This country was aware of the gross abuses
of the Crown revenues, in consequences of the statement
of his Noble Friend. Now, what was it the Govern-
ment proposed to do? He did not object to the Bill
being a Treasury Bill; but he asked the House to recol-
lect why they had the management of the Crown reve-
nues. They were yielded to the country in lieu of
365,0001. granted to the Crown. He asked whether any
individual, having property much scattered and very
much mismanaged, would not desire to see it differently
managed. The Noble Lord had refered to the Admi-
ralty letter; but it should be recollected that the reason
why the Admiralty did not buy New Forest timber was,
because about 21. a load more than the fair market price
was asked. He was confident, if the Crown lands were
properly managed, they would produce enough to defray
the expense of the civil list. The Noble Lord tried to
cover some of the grossest jobs by producing a state-
ment of legal proceedings. But the abuse of legal pro-
ceedings was, that the suits ware goinge' on for 10 or 12
years, fees going on all the time, rm apparent ter-
mination of these suits. It was madness to attempt to
retain the management of property distributed over 40
counties. The question was, whether they had not ar-
rived at the time when the sale of all the smaller pro-
perties and fee-rents should take place.
Mr. HENLEY said that the Bill was divided into
two parts, one of which would regulate the land reve-
nues, and the other the buildings-, and it seemed to
him that they were so curiously framed, and more
especially the first part, that no person would be directly
responsible for the mode of carrying out the measure
He confessed that that was, iu his opinion, a very serious
objection to the Bill as i, then stood. The measure
might be improved in Committee; but he could not say
he thought that it offered, in its present shape, any
security that that property would be much better
managed for the future than it had formerly been
meesgi d; and yet anything worse than the former
memegetneut (need 00 Vl,ll ill. e • ie ived.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the responsibility iu that case would rest with the Trea-..

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said unquestionably Ith ,
fourth clause would confer upon them the power of 1
tak
thein ottinel cau but oly in e event of illness or
agccidegntal abseece of tho n
Vice- thChanoeilor.
3lr. HUME asked whether there was any objections
to the Lord Chauceller issuing et, order to deer the
mode of proceeding in the Maeter's offises, so as to have
the courts open to the public and the proceedings to go
on from day to
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the system of hour war-
'ants wee abolished in the Misters' offiess, and the pro-
ceedings went on regularly. Whether she plans adoped
last year worked to the entire satisfactiou of the public
he could not say, because it was not very easy to clear
away at once all the difficulties that stood in the way.
Further amendments of the law wouH most probablyebe
required, and the Lord Chancellor who was devoting
much attention to tho subject, would be quite ready to
u'elpt any improvement in the law that could be stag-
getted. He was disposed to give very greet weight to
the objections of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
tot Ripon, and to pay every respect to the high legal
authority which he had quoted. When the proposal
of the appointment of Vice-Chancellors was brought
before
Parliament in 1811, the late Sir Samuel
1/umillY made the observations alluded to. But
that
prediction was entirely faicified. Another
Waternent of that distinguished individual was that
the Lord Chancellor would not then hear original
causes,but his whole time would he occupied hearing
appeals. Now, since the time of Lord Elden,the very
ablest men in the law had been appointed to the office of
Lord Chancellor, and he did not think that this Bill
would have the effect of depriving them of men of simi-
lar,, eminence. The Lord Chancellor would still sit in
the Court of Chancery to decide upon the most difficult
eat", and would also preside in the House of Lords.
tee would still be the great legal authority to whom his
colleagues in the Govetnneent would look upon questions
of law. It would be the interest of the Government to
Procure the very first men at the bar to fill the office;
and he saw nothing in the present measure to throw any
obstacles in the way of effecting their object. The Bill
would give the Lord Chancellor much more time to &-
Vote to the question of legal reform. His first duty was
to do justice to causes that came before him, and to de-
vote the utmost attention and labour to a proper consi-
deration of them. It was, however, impossible for any
man, however able and learned, to accomplish satiefec-
b,r,ilY all those duties that belonged to
t. the o
H ffice. The
that
great facilities in that respece thought
'Qat the best way of lay ine-, a proper foundation for this
reform was to have an arcnitect who would see that the
foundation was well laid. By this Bill they would have
such
, a person, and he hoped that the Committee would
lake such a course as would render his services available
nMr.J. EVANS wanted to know why the Masters it,.
tebancery could not take original causes, and thereby
render it unnecessary for suitors to encounter the great
expense and inconvenience of first going before the Court
of Chancery?
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 2,3,
4,5, and 6,
On clause 7 being proposed,
Mr. HENLEY said there was a provision in this Bill
to meet the case of a different opinion in the judges
When exercising an appellaee jurisdiction; but there was
nothing in it, to provide for the contingency of a thee-
rebee amongst the judges when trying original causes.
BETHELL thought it was the intention of the
'll, in original causes, that the judges should sit sepa-
rately.
1, The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that these judges
e ere oaly to hear oriinal causes in the event of he ill
'Lets or accidental absence ot thu Vice-Chancellotr. It
ilia: intended to discourage as much as possible those
opi-
nion sitting singly. If there were a difference of opi-
nith under such circumstances as those referred to, there
st in such cases be a rehearing.
give BETHELL thought it would be much better to
%to:0)e power ot rehearing only in such cases as when
ale Judges should agree that there should be a rehear-
veg. There would be much mischief and inconvenience
experienced in giving the power to the Lord Chancellor
pie of deshling neon a rehearing.
dif-
fered t.. 7. RUSSELL observed that the judges who dif-
Ito tt opinion upon the merits of the case itself would
erder likely to differ in opinion as to the propriety of
a rehearing.
The clause, having been verbally amended, was then
agreed to.
ClauseQa 9
8, after a brief discussion, was also agreed to.
Clauses to 13 were agreed to.
Mt'
clause 14 being proposed,
taut BETHELL remarked that it was a very impor-
Juafgau, sr,e• It proposed to diminish the strength of the
give t.e.e" Committee of the Privy Council. It would
the Power of deciding appeals from the colonies to
law
eresident of the Council, a layman, and to three
/ersY ra' Ile suggested that there should be four law-
u on the Committee.
Vtes• STUART supported the clause. When there
ansiunt a single judge—Sir William Grant—sitting, the
feetoa:BB of the Privy Council was conducted in a satis-
he Manner. He did not think that an increase in
taotaraher of the judges was an improvement. He
/Int it would be inconvenient to have four judges.
e SOLICITOR-GENERAL considered that the
presentgreat constitution of the Judicial Committee gave
the'" satisfaction to the public. He was for retaining
Mr, as it stood.
haver' Ile PALMER considered it of importance to
titl large number of judges on the Judicial Com-
ee' Bo that its decisions might give satisfaction in
e colonies.
Lord J,uern' RUSSELL said that complaints were fre-
Jejal Y made of the difficulty of making a quorum of the
udi
on , Committee: That was an inconvenience that
jut to be guarded against, and the remedies suggested
to to make three a quorum instead of four, and thee
Make other judges members of the Privy Council, so
lie that they should be members of the Judicial Com-
taittee. He had nu objection that there should be a pro-
lisp that the three members of the Judicial Committee
for hearing appeals should be judges—that is members
Of the legal profession. He did net think, however, that
they should insist upon the President of the Council be-
ing in attendance.
Mr. BETHELL suggested the insertion of the
Words ~ exclusive of the Lord President for the time
heinge,
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clause 18 was struck out.
Clause 16 was agreed to.
On clause 17,
In answer to Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
• The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the provision
in the clause was that in future the Lord Chancellor
should not be paid 10,000/, a year out of the suitors'
itltbd, but only such a sum as would make, with the al-
Wance given for Speaker of the House of Lords, a sum
cut
10,0001. a year.
On clause 18,
ti The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he had an addi-
-011 to propose to this clause. Notice had been given of
clause authorising the appointment of a secretary,
the
land train-bearer to each of the new judges. In
salaries
clause now before them provision was made for the
ar
of the new judges, and ho proposed to add a
provision for the salaries of the officers he had natal-
b:tled. Ho proposed that a salary of 4001. a year should
„ allowed for each secretary, 2501. for each usher, and
toed
the year for each train-bearer. In the Bill relating
to
allowed
t-oo u r t • -14 s ePePp
ointment of Vice_Chancellor Turner 801. was
asewed for a court-keeper. The salaries of the other
ers was only 401., but as this was considered
the small a sum he proposed to raise the salaries of all
be„esurt-keepers to 801. He did not propose by this
":,,to appoint any new court-keepers. .
he did
A.GLIONSY said, if these officers were necessary
ve 'id not think the salaries too high. His object in
tog was te call the attention of the Committee to the
paat Out of which the salaries of the judges were to be
ri:d, as he doubted much whether the suitors' fund was
best for that purpose. There were two funds in the
court of Chancery—the suitors' fund and the suitors'
le fund, amounting, he was told, to the enormous
sumi of 200,000/. a year. The judges were paid out
o
the suitors' fund, and the officers of court and cer-
tain compensations were paid out of the fee fund.
Zeeording to a return which he had moved for some
"d'lne ago, but which had only been delivered that
ppal, it aeared that from 1842 to November last, the
salaries and compensation paid to certain officers of the
Court of Chancery amounted to no less than 589,0004
Another return showed that there had been paid to the
sworn clerks for salaries and compensation, from the
Passing of the Act to November, 1850, no less than
211,086/. 18s. lld. He had taken the trouble to ascer-
tain the sum paid for compensation to one of those
clerks, not only up to his death, but for the seven years
beyond it, as provided by the Act, and he found that
Would amount to upwards of 25,0001., and another would
receive no less than 70,0001. The whole amount would
be 174,0001. If the judges were paid out of the con-
tolidated Fund instead of out of the suitor's fund the
suitorsti. would be proportionally relieved. He did not
‘Pnk it right to place the salaries of the new judges on
t°e suitors' fund.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the suitors' fund
consisted of the interest paid on money deposited in the
c uert, and that was the fund out of which a Committee
Of
i that House had thought the suitors should be released
tit regard to fees. He should not enter upon the ques-
oru,ll of compensation, but might remark that the charges
the fee fund were continually diminishieg. A few
trite ago, by an order of the Lord Chancellor, the
eae,rge on suitors with respect to fees had been dimi-
Vaned to an extent of 20,0001. a year, and he believed
d'ill further reductions would be effected.
Sir IL WILLOUGHBY wished to know the present
et to of the suitors' fund, and the amount of it that was
n''
PPlicable to purposes of a public nature?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the Hon. Baronet
ewns mistaken if he thought the suitors' fund consisted of
unclaimed dividends. It was formed of a surplus which
no °tie could claim. This surplus had been invested, and
the
interest thereon was as much the property of those
;no invested it as the interest made by bankers who in-
vested money deposited with them. According to a ro-
emade last year, the surplus, after deducting all
charges, amounted to about 45,0001. a year. He now
L,°Posed to place on that fund the charge of 14,0001. to
watch this Bill related.
Mr. FIUME thought the salaries of all public officers
wiselt to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, other-
the public were
kept in ignorance of the actual ex-
Atnened.iture of the country. They ought ro be consistent.
laimed dividends were ordered to be paid into the
-crcchequer until claimed. The suitors' fund consisted of
!Loch of the value of 3,525,000/, the dividends on which
tlloounted during the year to 103,398 it The whole
charges on it were 67,5001., leaving a surplus invested
II
ot of 45,000/., but of 36,0001., which he contended
ought to be brought to the public account. With regard
to the fee fund, the receipts last year had been 150,0001,
and the charges 39,927/. A Committee had recom-
rnMd that the tele le f of the Ch usr of Chancery
feud
be abolished as soon as the charge on tau fee
ceou.o was exhausted. For the sake of suitors he ob-
d to any additional charge being placed upon it.

sury, without whose sanction the officers of the Woods , LICENSED VICTUALLERS' SCHOOL.
and Forests could not incur any expense. , Toe Forty-fifth Anniversary of this noble institution
Th, Eleuo- then went into Committee on the Bill, Mr. took place yesterday, at Highteury-earn Tavern, and
BERNAL in the chair. I was attended by a numerous and highly influential
Clauso 1, which relates to the appointment of two 1 ' company. We have so often had the sincere gratifica-
Commissioners, having aeon put, i tion of directing the attention of cur readers to the
Lord DUNCAN said he perceived that by that clause i valuable characteristics of the Licensed Victualler?
there were to be two commissioners, who were each to School, that it is elmost a matter of supererogation to
have a salary of 1,2001. a year; but he also found that, advert to them on the present occasion. We may in
by tiie 11th daunt, her Majesty iu Council might, if she passing, however, ,observe that the purpose for which
should deem tit, appoint a surveyor general, with a the school has been founded is to maintain, clothe, and
salary of 1,5001. a year, in place of the commissioners. educate the children of distressed licensed victuallers;
Now, it a single functionary with 1,5001. could perform that since its establishment nearly 1,200 children have
the duties of the office, he thought it better that they been recipients of its advantages, and that above
should at once determine on leaving in his hands the 130,000/. have been expended by the trade, with which
management of that property. the school is associated and the public generally, in car-
Lord SEYM.OUR, stated that whatever arrangement rying out its usefulness. We may add, that by a recent
might be adopted the expense to the public would be arrangement on the part of the Incerporated Society,
much the same; for while each of the commissioners under whose management the school is placed, the he-
would have 1,2001. a year, the surveyor general would nefits of the institution, which heretofore were limited to
have 1,5001. a year, and he should also have an assistant the children of licensed victuallers of the metropolis,
to whom an additional salary should be paid. have been extended to the offspring of that body
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, througont the-United Kingdom, thus bringing within
that by appointing, for the present, two commissioners the sphere of its valuable operations the child of every
there would be a saving to the public, by employing the member of the trade in every part of the three king-
gentlemen who at present held somewhat similar offices; doms that happens to require its parental proctection.
for if those gentlemen were not employed a retiring al- But the influence of the school does not terminate with
lowance should be paid to them. the period during which the children remain within its
Sir W. JOLLIFFE thought that there ought to be walls. It follows them into the world, for it apprentices
a responsible officer for the management of the pro- them to some good trade, or disposes of them in such a
party, and that that officer ought to he a Member of the manner as to enable them to become useful members of
House. society. Having stated these facts, we do not feel it to
Mr. HENLEY thought it would be better to take the be necessary to add another word in commendation of
sense of the Committee on the last part of the clause, as this truly important institution. We shall, therefore,
it would decide the question of which system should be proceed to describe the circumstances connected with
adopted. yesterday's proceedings.
Mr. SL ANEY considered the Government plan as the With the view of affording accommodation to the nu-
best for getting rid of the nuisances complained of. naerous company that had signified their intention to be
Sir B. HALL thought differently, and that the Bill present, a splendid pavilion was erected on the spacious
was grounded on a wrong basis. He thought the con- urounds attached to the tavern, which was well venti-
stitution of the board required a complete revision, and lated and tastefully decorated, and was in every respect
that the Government should at once decide which system admirably adapted for the purpose for which it was de-
wee to prevail. signed. Along the sides of the pavilion were raised
Mr. V. SMITH said that the whole matter ought to seats appropriated for the use of the female friends of
he stated fairly to the Committee. the donors of the charity, and long before the time an-
Mr. TRELA WNY saw no objection to the Bill, ex- nounced for dinner—namely, four o'clock—these seats
ceps that it did not go far enough. This defect it was were occupied by elegantly dressed ladies, who seemed
the duty of the Committee to remedy. to take great interest in the proceedings of the day, and
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the when the entire company, amounting to 2,000 persons,
objection to the Bill was caused by the Government was seated at the table the coup crail was peculiarly
having taken power in the 11th clause to improve the striking. Previous to the dinner, and during the even-
administration of the property. ing, the Deptford Royal Brigade brass band (who at-
Sir J. GRAIIANI could not come to other than the tended at the request of Mr. Harris, a late member of
conclusion that the first clause contained the best scheme the committee of the Incorporated Society), took their
of management. He thought it was desirable that the station on the lawn, and played several popular airs in a
management should be vested in two Commissioners, highly effective manner.
under the stringent control of the Treasury. The dinner, which was in every respect highly ere-
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Commissioner who ditable to the catering powers of Mr. Hinton, the pro-
had retired had done so from age, and consequent in- prietor of the tavern, was admirably served up, and gave
competence to perform the duties. He (Lord John universal satisfaction.
Russell), on his retirement, bad sought for a competent The musical arrangements were under the direction of
person to fill the office. At the time of the appointment Mr. G. F. Taylor, who was assisted by Mr. Genge, Mr.
of this person he had not contemplated the 11th clause Godden, Mr. C. Kenny, Mr. Bland, Mr. Morley, Mr.
of the Bill; but he could not see any reason in that for Herbert (comic), Mr. Farquharson Smith, Mr. Dela-
the defeat of the whole plan, which was bated upon the vanti, and Mr. Fortescue.
possibility of further improvements. The Chairman on the occasion was Sir H. Meux,
Sir W. JOLLIFFE would vote for the omission of Bart., M.P., the principal of the eminent firm of Meux
the latter part of the clause. and Co., brewers. He was supported on his right by
Mr. GOULBURN considered that, if a change was Captain Smith, of the same firm, and by Mr. Alderman
to be made, it etas better decided in the first instance. Wire on his left. Amongst the gentlemen present we
He preferred the two officers named in the first clause noticed R. Hunter, Esq., C. Callow, Lel, Taylor,
to the itinerant surveyor in the 11th. Esq., Sherry, Dee, —Stevens Etq., G. Odling,
Mr. HENLEY had no choice in the matter, but he Esq., James Grant, Esq., editor of the Morning Adver-
wished the House to decide the alternative. tiser; M'Claren, Eta.; Mr. Findley, governor of the
The Committee then divided, when there appeared— Incorporated Society; .Mr. Bryon, Mr. G. Walter, Mr.
For the amendment ... ... • ... 70 Ireland, Mr. Long, Mr. Lewis Jones, Mr. J. J. Homer,
Against it ••• ••• ... ... 123 past governor of the society; Id a number of influen-
Majority ... ... ... ...-53 tial members.
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill. Hailes, the celebrated Norfolk giant, occupied a con-
Clauses 2 and 3 were then agreed to. spicuous position at the cross table, and attracted no
Clause 4 having been proposed, ordinary degree of notice.
Lord DUNCAN moved that after the words " first There was also present a deputation from Birming-
Commistiener " there should be inserted the following ham, consisting of Mr. James, the Chairman of the Bir-
words:—" And so much of the said Acts as makes the mingham Protection Society; Mr. Merriam Chairman of
salaries of the Commissioners of the Woods, Forests, the Central Committee of the United Towns Association;
and Land Revenues, and the costs, charges, and ex- Mr. Stinton, Vice-Chairman of the same Association;
pensee attending the management of the possessions and Mr. Showell, Secretary of the above Protection Society;
laud revenue s of the Crown, chargeable on the annual and Mr. Shepherd, a former member of the Committee
income thereof." Line 14, leave out " relating to," and of the Association.
insert " fixing." Line 15, after " Commissioner," in- After the usual toasts had been gone through,
sert, "at the sum of 1,2001. per annum." Line 16, after Mr. SMALLEY, the Secretary, read the list of sub-
" under this Act," insert, " and the salaries of such scriptions, which amounted to 1,8401.; among them were
Commissioners, and of the officers and others in the de- the following:—
uineas; Sir Henr Meux
perement of the Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Sir Henry Meux, Bart., 50 gy
Land Revenues, and the cysts, charges, and expenses and Co., 100 guineas; ditto, usual annual donation 20
attending the management of the possessions and land guineas; Henry Nealson Smith, Esq., 20 guineas;
revenues of the Crown, shall be defrayed out of such Comb©, Esq., 10 guineas; Messrs. Hodges, distillers, ,
monies as Ethan be from time to time provided by Par- Lambeth; 20 guineas; Messrs. Nalders and Collyer,
lianient." His object in moving that amendment was to "Hewers Croydon, 10 guineas; Mr. J. Bass, M.P., also
place the whole of those revenues under the control of subscribed 25 guineas, and in the note which commu-
Parliament. He felt sure that the property would by nicated this donation, stated that he should have been
that means be-much better managed than it had hitherto present at the festival, but that he was anxious to be
present, at the House of Commons on the division which
been.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Noble Lord had was expected to take place that evening on the Jews Bill.
stated that which must be admitted to be a very consi- The children then retired in the same order in which
derable public evil. If the improvements alluded to in hey had entered the Pavilion.
the report were to be carried one he thought that the Mr. Alderman WIRE then rose to propose the health
money should be taken out of the public revenue, and of the chairman of the day, Sir Henry Meux, Bart,
not out of the land revenue. The Noble Lord proposed M.P. They would readily anticipate, he observed, that
that the exyensesof the management, and all the details he was about to offer to their notice a toast which needed
of the affairs of the Crown estates, should be laid an- not the aid of eloquence to recommend it, because
nually before Parliament. The Government, on the they had already had practical experience of the
contrary, proposed that the general expenses should worth of the gentleman whose name he had to an-
appear yearly in the estimates, leaving the details of the nounce.—(Hear, hear.) It was the common place
management to be made a matter of account yearly to topic of orators of the present day to claim for our
Parliament, which would furnish a sufficient check. If country the position of mistress of the world, and for
the Noble Lord's proposition were carried into effect, the the great metropolis in which we lived, the emporium
whole session would be consumed in the discussion of the of commerce, the seat of the arts, the cradle of civilize-
estimates, and there would be no time for any of the or ion, and the birthplace of all that was noble and great,
dinary business of Parliament. and, that dignified our common nature. Bat if ever
Mr. WILLIAMS and Mr. fIuME supported the proposi- hat was true, it was more than true at
exhibi ttw the present
tibn of the Noble Lord (Duncan). time for London could at that moment
Lord SEYMOUR defended the policy of the Govern- he greatest spectacles that the civilized world ever
ment. saw. They had heard of the Crystal Palace. Thou-
Mr. HENLEY considered it a very poor reason for sands who had seen its wonders had congratulated
not submitting all those expenses & Parliament to allege our country that in this century, and at the present
that the House had not time for their consideration. period, it should have remained for Englandful rival to have
There was always sufficient time when the Government invited all the nations of the world to a peacery
wanted money, and he could not understand why they in commerce, in the arts of industry, which adminis-
should not have time to watch over this branch of the tered to our wants
di and luxuries; and if
fromit having looked
public expenditure. at that wonderful splay, they turned
Mr. V. SMITH thought the Government proposition scene now before them, they would see there another
very reasonable. example of England's greatness and of England's
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY would vote in favour of the glory.—(Hear, hear.) No other cpuntry on the face of
Noble Lord's (Duncan's) amendment. the earth could exhibit upwards of three thousand per-
The Committee then divided, when there appeared— sons collected together on so happy an occasion, graced
For the amendment ... ... ... 73 by the presence of the fairer sex, and cheered in the
Against it ... ..• ... ... 99 good work of charity by those who were the grace and
Majority against the amendment —26 the ornament of society—all met together for the one
Lord J. RUSSELL having assented to part of the great object of aiding and assisting this charity, which
other amendment of Lord Duncan's, which R-Z3 as follows was amongst the most useful and the most honourable of
in line 16:—." After ' under this Act,' insert ' and the the present day.—(Checre.) To diffuse knowledge—to
salaries of such Commissioners, and of the officers and educate the people—to raise them in the scale of intel-
others in the department of the Commissioners of Woods, ligence—to render our countrymen and our country-
Forests, and Land Revenues, shall be defrayed out of women fit to enjoy the blessings, and to diffuse abroad
such monies as shall be from time to time provided by amongst other peoples the blessings of civilization and
Parliament,'" of liberty,—such was the great object of the Licensed
Clause 4, as amended, was then agreed to. Victuallers' School, which originated with a class of men
The Huse then resumed, and the CisAIRMAN ob- who, at the time they laid the foundation of this great
Mined leave to sit again. establishment for educating the orphan children of their
SCENE IN THE HOUSE. less fortunate brethren, were themselves amongst the de-
Mr. BERNAL (addressing the Speaker) said he felt spiced of society. But by their charity, by their intern-
it his duty to inform him that after the galleries had been genee, by their perseverance, they had made for them-
cleared for a division, the proceedings of the Committee selves a name and had set an example which other trades
were interrupted by a loud knocking at the door.— of the metropolis would be careful to emulate.—(Hear,
(Laughter.) The noise having been continued, he in- hear.) Not alone did they take the orphan child into
etructed the Sergeant-at-Arms to inquire into the matter, their kind keeping, and supply to those who had become
and that officer informed him that the interruption was destitute the want of a father and mother, but they went
occasioned by the Hon. Member for Ennis (The O'Gore to the other extreme of human life, wereg up the
man Mahon). decayed and unfortunate tradesmen who east upon
The SPEAKER having called upon the Sergeant-at- the precarious bountwhere, iies of thn
comfort 'e world. Tan d hey
in gratitude,
had erected
Arms for an explanation, for hem
The Sergeanteat-Arms said that he had made inquiry they could enjoy the blessings thus diffused among
into the cause of the interruption complained of, and was them. In addition to all that
he claimed for the licensed
informed by the messenger that it was occasioned by the victuallers another great point of merit, which regirded
Hon. Member for Ennis. ~ still more largely the general welfare of society. They
Mr. HUME observed that the Sergeant-at-Arms had had established a newspaper, and it bad prospered and
only heard the fact from another. He asked was the was prospering.—(Cheers.) It had assisted prominently
messenger present? .. in forming the public mind on many occasions, and it
The SPEAKER inquired whether the Hon. Member was guiding public opinion now. It was dedicated to no
for Ennis was in his place? The House was informed sect or party; but embraced all who were desirous of
that the proceedings of the Committee were interrupted doing good to their fellow countrymen, or of promoting
by the lion. Member for Ennis causing a violent dis- the interests of society all over the world.—(Hear.) And
turbance by loudly knocking at the door. If that state- all that was liberal in their institution—all that was great
meat be correct the Hon. Member alluded to would see in their charity—or all that was favourable to the objects
the necessity of offering some explanation to the House for which their society had been established found a
for his indecorous conduct.—(Hear, hear.) ready advocacy in the columns of that paper.—(Cheers.)
The O'GORMAN MAHON said there was no man Conducted as it was by sterling honesty and distin-
inside or outside of that House who paid greater defe- guished ability, it would earn for itself a name in the
rence to their rules and regulations. He, however, pro- history of theircountry and would ever be found amongst
tested against this imputation that had been cast upon the best and most useful instructors of their age.---
him, as he, respectfully stated he did not merit it. He (Hear, hear.) He had to apologise, he feared, for di-
had not, therefore, any apology to make. What really grossing for a moment from the immediate object of his
did occur was this—the strangers had not retired from rising, which was to propose the health of the distin-
the gallery above the Speaker when he knocked at the guished gentleman who bad attended them that day,
door for admission, intimating at the same time to the and had dischared with so muc ability the duties he
messenger that the strangers were not out of the House, had with great kindness assumed. h
—(Hear, hear.) The
and that the question bad not been proposed by the name of the firm of Henry Meux and Co. was synony-
Chairman. He claimed his right to exercise his prero- mous with that of charity, and the large contribution
gative ; but he was denied admission, and a wrong was wic h
hit ad made that day proved how deeply it felt in-
thus inflicted upon him by this exclusion. tehrested in all that concerned the honour and the wel- '
Mr. P. S. BUTLER begged to corroborate the state- fare of the licensed victuallers. He would not trust
meat of the Hon. Member for Ennis. He was close to himself to speak of their distinguished chairman in the
the door at the time, and hearing his Hon. Friend knock- relations of private life, but it would suffice for him to
ing at it for admission, and porceiving that the question say that, whether they regarded him in the character of
was not then put by the Chairman, he asked the func- a private gentleman, or in that of a Member of the Le-
tionary at the door_ to open it, but he flatly refused to do gislature, he was equally an ornament to society. He
so, his Hon. Friend having then continued to knock at was sure they would join with him in thanking him
the door, for which he had apologised.—(No, no.) He cordially for his appearance amongst them that day, and
had not certainly apologised in language, but be bad for the deep interest which he had taken in the pro-
stated what he thought was apology enough for the eeetlings of the day; and he asked them to drink his
circumstance—that he meant no disrespect to the House good health, and prosperity to his firm.—(Cheers.)
—that he merely wished to exercise his privilege of vet- The toast having been drunk with prolonged cheering,
ing, and thought that by knocking hard at the door he The CHAIRMAN returned thanks
were happy, in common
would be able to obtain his object. Mr. J. J. lioranu, who we
The SPEAKER said before the question was put, it with the company, to see in an improved state of health,
was undoubtedly most irregular to exclude any Member prosposed the next toast—" The Morning Advertiser,
from the House. He hoped that after what bad fallen James Grant, Esq., the editor, and the Press." His
from the Honourable Member, the House would be sa- friend Mr. Alderman Wire had described the advantages
tisfied that the Honourable Gentleman was not guilty that resulted from a press, and he could only add to
of any intentional disrespect, but that the interruption what he had said on the subject, that when it was guided
he had occasioned had arisen altogether from a mistake. I by men of intelligence, probity, and sound principles, it
The O'GORMAN MAHON trusted that the Right was a blessing to any country.—(Hear, hear.) Amongst
Hon. Gentleman would issue such an order as would the various organs of the press, there was one journal
prevent the recurrence of such a scene. Similar conduct 1 which belonged to the licensed vicdtuallers, of which th
theey
was pursued by the messenger at the door during the ' had good reason to be proud, an which reflected
last session. i greatest credit upon them; for it had alleviated the suf-
Mr. GOULBURN said, if the messenger had so mis- , ferings of thousands of their brethren.—(Cheers.) He
conducted himself, it was the duty of the Honourable saw by a book placed upon the upper table, and from
ntteleer to make his complaint to the House. He was the report, that the amount distributes in weekly allow-
not justified in interrupting the proceedings in the man- antes up to June, 1851, was 132,7451. 14e. That large
nee referred to. sum of money had been distributed in relief among the
The O'GORMAN MAHON said he had been de- old and decayed members of their trade up to the pre-
prived of his undoubted privilege, and he now re. sent period.—(Cheers.) They might easily conceive,
terred to the Speaker to issue such an order as would therefore, that the Morning .Advertiser, in which they
prevent the recurrence of such conduct on the part of the were so largely interested, was a valuable public
messenger. I organ, and it had been the constant advocate of the
The matter then endel. industrial classes of the community. Its circula-
Th,e highway Rates Bill and Ecclesiastical Jurisdic- lion, since its enlargement, had increased very conside-
tion Bill were severally read a third time and passed. rably, he was happy to say, and with that significant
The other orders of the day having been then disposed i fact before them, he conceived it would be quite unne-
of, the Ileum scliourued M bigf-Piot One 9'01944

cesiary for him to say a word more in its praise. He
begged leave to associate with the toast the name of Mr.
James Grant, the editor of the paper.—(Hear, hear.)
He was a gentleman of great literary attainments, as
was w 11 known, and had paid the most unremitting at-
tention to his duties. To his indefatigable and intelli-
gent exertions, indeed, he fait hound to say, the success
of the double sheet was in a great degree attributable;
and he ha 1 great pleasure, therefore,in proposing " The
Morning Advertiser, James Grant, Esq., the editor, and
the Press."—(Cheers.)
The toast having been received with acclamation,
Mr. SMALLEY, in the absence of Mr. Grant, said he
would endeavour to respond to the toast which had been
so ably proposed by Mr. Homer, whom the members of
the trade had so often listened to with attention and re-
spect.—(Hear, hear.) Although it required great elo-
quence to do justice to the toast, he could not doubt that
every parson present in that largo company fully appre•
ciated the importance of an independent press, and,
he might say, that no journal was more unfettered, or
more desirous of advancing the welfare of the people,
than that with which he had the honour of being
associated.—(Hear, hear.) The editor had left thus
early from his anxiety to perform efficiently the du-
ties of his arduous situation. Under his management
the paper had justly increesed in circulation, and also in
the number of its advertisements, and it was steadily
advancing in public estimation throughout the country.
—(Cheers.) The presence of the deputation from Birm-
ingham, and other places, was indicative of a desire to
assist the members of this extensive society in promoting
the circulation of the Morning Advertisers and thereby
enlarging the sphere of the charities connected with it.
There was no object of utility that was not indebted to
the press, while it also maintained a wholesome influ-
ence over society generally. The Morning Advertiser,
besides doing its duty as a journal, had also, as had been
remarked by Mr. Homer, been truly the meanse of
contributing to the comfort of many persons in their de-
clining years; and it was only necessary for them to
support the Morning Advertiser to increase materially
the amount of good which had already been accomplished
by the profits of that journal.
Mr. R. HUNTER, of the firm of Messrs. Hunter and
Co., raid ho rose to propose the health of their worthy
secretary, Mr. Smalley.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
The post was one of great responsibility, and they had
that day witnessed the en,trgy which Mr. Smalley brought
to the discharge of his important duties. It was unne-
cessary he should do more than simply propose the health
of Mr. Smalley. Drank with three times three, and loud
cheering.
Mr. SMALLEY said he could hardly express the feel-
ings which he experienced on so marked a compliment
being paid to him on an occasion like the present. He
could assure the meeting that nothing gave him more
pleasure than to endeavour to perform his duties effi-
ciently to their admirable institution.—(Hear.) It was
impossible to overrate the advantages of en institution
which, for several years, had distributed from 8,0001. to
9,0001. to their various charities.—(Cheers.) It was a
gratifying circumstance that at the present anniversary
meeting they were presided over by a gentleman of such
standing and high influence in the commercial world;
and it must be equally gratifying to the firm with which
he was connected to see how warm and bow cordial a re-
ception he had received from the meeting.—(Cheers.)
The present year was one of great importance in the
history of the institution, especially as regarded the en-
largement of their paper, the Morning Advertiser, which
was now made equal to any other journal of the day.—
(Cheers.) He called upon them all to give the Advertiser
their beat support, and to recollect that, if in this year
1851, science and art could do so much, charity should
do so much also.—(Loud cheers.) He hoped to see their
institution every year more and more prosperous, and it
was very gratifying to him to be able to say that he had
that evening announced a larger subscription than he
had ever done before.—(Hear, hear.) He could not sit
down without thanking the brewers of the metropolis
for the subscriptions they had given on the present occa-
sion, and he had again to thank the meeting for the
honour conferred upon him.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BURRIDGE said he had been unexpectedly called
upon to propose a mark of respect to the deputation
from Birmingham. He had the gratification of saying,
that in no town was there:a greater anxiety evinced to
form a connexion with their institution than in the town
of Birmingham.—(Cheers.) The deputation who repre-
sented Birmingham had done much to promote the in-
terests of the licensed victuallers, and he was sure they
would be glad of an opportunity of meeting them upon
the present occasion.—(Cheers.) Next to the Great
Exhibition there was nothing more gratifying than the
spectacle which met their eyes that day, and ho was
especially glad to see their friends present on such an oc-
casion. He begged in conclusion to propose the healthy
of Messrs. Marrian, Stinton, and James.—(Cheers.)
The toast having been drank with all the honours,
Mr. MARRIA.N begged to return thanks for the honour
conferred upon himself and his friends, and expressed
the great gratification he felt in seeing the children of
the institution brought before them that day.—(Cheers.)
The object of their institution was to preserve these
poor children from falling into a state of vice and
misery, and it was impossible that any institution
could be more strongly recommended to their best
sympathies.—(Loud cheers.) He could assure the
meeting that nothing could give him greater pleasure
than to promote the interests of the licensed victuallers
generally, and to render them every service in his
power.— (Loud cheers.)
Mr. JAMES also begged to thank the meeting for the
handsome manner in which they had entertained the
deputation. Birmingham looked with great confidence
to the licensed victuallers of London, and they felt
that being in connexion with them gave them greater fa-
cilities than they could otherwise possibly have. Al-
though Birmingham could not boast of an institution
like the present, the licensed victuallers of that town had
established an asylum for the aged members of their
body.—(Loud cheers.) He could assure the meeting
that they felt much interested in the enlargement of the
Morning Advertiser, and he had the gratification of say-
ing that it was now much called for in Birmingham.—
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) At that late period of the
evening he would not say more, but would again thank
them for the honour conferred on the deputation from
Birmingham.
Mr. PHILLIPS said he had the honour of proposing the
next toast, " The past Chairman, Governors, Trustees,
and Committee of the Licensed Victuallers' School."
He begged to add that he proposed the toast with much
pleasure. The gentlemen alluded to worked hard, and
they well deserved any compliment they could pay
them.—(Cheers.)
The toast having been duly honoured,
Mr. G. WALTER rose to return thanks, and, in doing
so, expressed his regret that his friend Mr. Bryon was
not present to perform that duty. He could only say,
on the part of himself and his friends who were included
in the toast, that they felt very grateful for the compli-
ment that had been paid them, and that, although out of
office, they were deeply interested in the success of the
Licensed Victuallers' School, and would seize upon every
opportunity that presented itself to promote its pros-
perity.—(Loud cheers.)
Several other toasts were then proposed.
The whole proceedings passed off with the greatest
éclat, and the company retired from the festive scene
highly pleased with all they saw and heard.

LAW INTELLIGENCE.
ROLLS' COURT, July 3.
The Court heard motions, and subsequently causes.
IN THE MATTER OF PALMER AND LANDELLS—AL
LEGED PIRACY AND INJUNCTION.
Mr. MURRAY applied, on the part of Mr. Palmer,
publisher, and Mr. Landells, artist, proprietors of the
Expositor, a highly-illustrated publication of the pre-
sent day, explanatory, amongst other things, of the
works of art now exhibiting at ate Crystal Palace, to
obtain an injunction against the proprietors of a some-
what similar publication, culled the Magazine of Science,
restraining them from selling or publishing any number
of the magazine containing passages alleged to be
pirated from the pages of the Expositor. The motion
was made ex parte, and the Learned Counsel stated that
this sort of application had been rendered necessary by
the urgency of the case, as it was apprehended the de-
fendants were at this moment preparing for publication
another number of their work, containing similar pira-
cies, which would be published unless the Court granted
this injunction. The affidavit in support of the motion
stated that there was a passage in the Expositor, at page
66 of the number, headed " British Machinery," pub-
lished on the 30th of May, 1851, which had been pub-
lished with a very trifling alteration from the original in
the Magazine of Science, at a subsequent date—namely,
on the Ist of July instant. The heading of this article
on " British Machinery" was the only part of it which
the defendants had omitted, in the article so pirated from
the pages of the Expositor.
The MASTER OF THE ROLLS—That will do. I think
your clients entitled to the common injunction. All that
your motion embraces would be more than I should
grant.‘ This injunction will have no retrospective opera-
tion on anything already done.
Mr. MURRAY said he was satisfied to take the more
limited form of injunction.
The MASTER OF THE ROLLS granted the injunction to
restrain the defendants from publishing in the Magazine
of Science any article containing passages taken from
the Expositor, or from selling numbers of the Magazine
of Science containing passages so copied from the Ex-
positor. It is understood that the Court imposes the con-
dition on the plaintiffs to accept short notice of motion
to dissolve this injunction.

MELANCHOLY AND FATAL ACCIDENT.—LOCKER-
ME, JUNE 30.—A mournful accident, which has thrown an
universal gloom over our village, occurred this afternoon.
Mr Joseph Bryden, late farmer of Halldykes, but residing
here since Whitsunday, accompanied by a friend, went over
to the river Annan to bathe, about six o'clock P.M. No
very correct account has yet reached us, but it would ap-
pear that Mr. Bryden soon after getting into the pool—a
very deep 01'10—situated two or three hundred yards above
Shillahill Bridge, got beyond his depth, and, not being an
expert swimmer, immediately began to struggle and cry for
assistance. His friend, we believe, made two or three
praiseworthy efforts to save him, but failed ; the conse-
quence was that fully an hour elapsed before he was got out,
when life was quite extinct. Mr. Bryden, from his quiet
and unobtrusive manners, was highly respected in the dis-
trict.—Perthshire Courier.
THE COVENTRY RIBBON.--We are happy to be
able to inform our readers that Messrs. ➢lorrison and Co.
have received a large order from her Majesty, for the Co-
ventry ribbon. It is possible that for beauty of design, and
perfection of workmanship, nothing has yet been made in
ribbon to excel this ; and although there has been, we un-
derstand, sonic little tardiness on the part of certain West-end
houses, who are in the habit of dealing only with the French,
in acknowledging that anood can come out of Coventry,
vet we are glad to see, from above order, that her Ma-
;
jesty has given her testimony in favour of the taste and
spirit that Messrs. Morrison have displayed, in ordering, at
an unprecedented price, the above specimen of what Coventry
can do.— Coventry Herald.
The Earl of Chichester had an interview 3-eiterday
1 with E;rl Grey.