The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-16 00:00:00

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te7ise PGthsv_e_r has been completely overturned. Till then,
atitiu,r
.0; ,orris of threatening emphasis of the great
itt_git,:ti,_tin......(tnel•:ieqeure/on- of repeal, agitation. agitation.
taitelZorsat‘or,easolee
lii4 of bealin d It is in vain, then, to wait for th
remedial measures.—(Hear, hear.)
:line authority of the land.— ( clear.) Look,
principles and organization of this twin%
2. u 1 uietY formed upon the pattern of the Volunteers of
4.,7Y Lords, the name, the period, the circumstance
%St% iitleps*.llation, which assumed as the model of the pre-
otituttd7t.etently showed the designs of those who have in-
-11410 _Look to the very term Volunteer. What does it
Perton-awire ordinary acceptation of the word ?—A
Petterrnin 9, of his own free will, engages in the
"Iso:s,tice something like a military duty. This
etagrar is to be extended over the whole country.
asieh ase°tiation is to he established in Dublin,
'entati the Pactficators are to be sent into every corner of
tfihel'e u_re! being established in each parish. The object
osook
aPtrificatore is to enlist and enrol the farmers, te-
Ithickt Jabot' ;
r•ng popul'tion in this great association,
guid:"en complete in all its branches, is to be under
end direction of the central association in
%atter 211,Y are to meet simultaneously with the
kllclieei7°l* and are to supersede the necessity of
,Idctio,Zee• When. the organization of this moral
Lweeto;Llte. oats, When.
is completed, it will be superior to the
reeat and is to prove its success by the establish-
osikhbou 11. National Guard, upon the plan of that in a
Lltkiell ring country. This association differs from any
ey'r befofe existed. It is not bound together
'Mkt
.stlirvt, b. nor are its discu,sions and objects
Plt,toed u,t, nevertheless, are such as would be
f:Y sectet associations. It has, however,
tit) just- in,(l by a person, ingenious in the law, as to
-okttle without the reach of its penalties, but at
it tit" to be ready for the most desperate purposes.
jettetierete64ll,4:7 to stite to your Lordships that this is
u to "co cannot be suffered to exist, and touch
te. thine extend itself without the abandonment of
•st 0 llecurities on which the safety and power of
No,erntnent rest. This, however, it is said, is an
Sci iotended only to pacificate and regenerate
t,t; I have stated its organization, its principles,
and ultimate end ; but, my Lords, it de-
bt:4lovn art/ time upon the mere breath of man,
tlkt.l tubring this immense organization into inane-
1tqt,,,°,13. When the plan of the Volunteer Association
ttko, —got forward, it was proposed that Mr. Steele
r
,4sit .4f,_° into the country as the chief pacificator.—
th) .-`14.) He professed himself most instrumental
ification of his country, as a Member,
isAiateir:7,oll
Irish agitation.
of pacificator, to prevent the
That person said that no
1,,,,,p,„ue, Pacificator unless he was at the same time a
fest,trular agitator—(ear, hear, and laughter)—and
iLltiednil Measure of confidence in Daniel O'Connell.
Ot'h "üble character of agitator and divine pacificator
4:;n4itethio2' naturally characteristic.--(Laughter.)
touch like a man going into a fair, and, after
;70 y :is blows right and left, crying out peace and
bps,. l to
411 .—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) This
•Cilotkrti,°f peace which these things are likely to
th„ e tells the volunteers, as he told the people of
suchto
„Daniel O'Connell requests them to have recourse
Yshould have recourse to them, immediately.
Zlito,ll:,tilter states, that be will not order any men to go
other person's wood to cut down trees, but that
ioNs se,ti'l them to cut down trees in his own
‘44444t:;71(t1ear, hear.) Though it is said that there is
PL'ation the period when these volunteers may I.e
:t 954
noes the association may be regularly armed, yet
tLaperZt to beau till their leader all.,ws them. We here
'4lt fol highly promoted by their leader, declaring,
Is 16 Ilebal from him, they wi.l be ready to assume
tly It
44,11 th 4 ecessary, my Lords, to urge any thing more
tjra the e absolute necessity to frame laws which shall
Government to put down this associa-
-0114; form one of the first objects of
fiZet th2cls I shall have to propose. But it is not only
"Ids volunteer associations that we shall have to
for the objects of which are certainly most mischie.
01 at 14 utsny parts of Ireland there is a s•at, of
ti:OiSan moment lit.le short of actual rebellion.
ift;_tes ate in the habit of as-enib ing by signals from
hells—(Hear, bear)—by horns. and by fires,
tCtslin vhSl?e°l, armed, and all of them conducted in a
Likis„,"iell, to the present time, have defeated ail
t...-`44.: of the Government and of the law. It is said
o-h7fitiC„„S)°°les have nothing to do with the volunteer
or with the in,asiires of the authors of that
'-'44:1:4* I do not stop to inquire how far it may be
414htta.. 4t they are caused by that association. A casual
thIN :°lll'i say nthat persons forming such bodies
tic opportunity of the meetings of this
and taking measures like that body, it
42.1:1 be wondered at if they grafted themselves on
Zsio.:elation.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Was it to
71yrered at
ttti, yvnen their resistance to tithes was so
0411_ and so active, that all the person, employed in
k'altir4lto. effect the process of the law were subject
zyt
iobn.eietiens, to attacks on life and pro•
sliato °I not unfrequently, to the loss of lite?
re it to be wondered at if the whole Govern-
to lore
„__l)reeented as acting universally against Leland,
hil%rer"'Ple are to be told that the laws are made
Ilitt'e .11nd to prosecute them, and not for •he preset-
lko%tht°°°(l government—is it to be wondered at tha
Si ko?quence of all this is a general resistance to
toiliSse Ix it to be wondered at that disturbances such
Istill,ord:ecnrred in Ireland should ensue? Such,
eo'n triu3t of necessity be the consequences o
rne• That, my Lords, being the ease, I say
pr4,ohnent there exist associations in Ireland f. r
-, of effecting those very objects I have de-
yet thue existence of which associations is' kept
bio, purpow of cat tying forth open defiance
voar kaiatance to the law, which the law itself, by
tOyNso, t nPeration, supported by the power of Go-
IWykttOrd, not been able to put a stop to. This,
v,tslof I admit, does not prevail over the
li
tkhl ; at store, however, prevail over a
'l,44:l:l4,etxuter:t of that kingdom; sod, mY Lords.
loss the'su44 should therefore understand that it
of disorders of these descriptions to
• u extend themselves, if not timely and vigorously
11.1.41 e
Itt of The whole, n.y Lords, I believe almost the
I I„ the province of Munster is in the
q-ve described. In that province the
tttttlylt-.. Curls and Tipperary are in a great state of
htet,t In the province there are disorders to a
'red
'lnd I believe the county of Louth has also
trits With a similar affliction —(Hear, hear, hear.)
Illia'isilltt;SilsviHee of Connaught, the account which
esttisind the other night from the Noble Mar-
(Q to t„,111, e (Sligo) will show your Lordships the
t 414.4 Vleh things have been carried in Mayo.—
th, ate `kith
thteSe„ respect to Mayo, it has been truly stated
co Part of those disturbances have arisen from
betZtope-4tteated elections. Now, my Lcrds, what was
tt)4711 ss the contest on that occasion? Why, it was
~slito of hewn professing himself to be friendly to the
4elti,2ue Legislative Union and two candidates
DlNAiertnrcted its existence. Why, my Lords, is it not
okt • these associations to effect the repeal of the
rf ti.‘ll per Is it not a regular rule now with that body
tltcY --kr:°tut who present themselves as candidates,
t? not Repeless to oppose them to the
Ai Per:. have no 'doubt, my Lords, that, like
I.ki,:ltatb-,„ki°tls writers who address themselves to
Ittfl h7pa g ;,.able passions of youth for the purpose
—4t_ excitement, and then think by some
41111'4• thi, " quench the flame, thee exhortations to
11,,et,Se °WS by legal means is intended to palliate
''`e who a 'dress them. They do this with
nt,t.thty
tlHotect themselves front the consequences to
Zsllk.l.l,;`(e:ite, °tit unwilling to expose those who are their
th of " Hear.") My Lords, it may be con-
saa,_ sat
saint
tl4,lllit
edrPc.se, but I cannot believe that when
fo ISit4 Ile It 4 this fl 'me, they have so little sagacity
t,,,,.ealZiedge of human nature as to believe that
ti,,_Attle„,`'lions tor au observance of the law will be
oect't si` ,to keep them within the limits of their
tlf-q -otSte ;I"!)rdit, let me now revert to the county of
Prod byll the frightful description given the
ett,AN. Litt , ttlY Noble Friend as to the state
!ht.:Neil," 611'4 part of the country. It was
hojith' oftLe Proceedings at an election, in
*llo"°...thll "e harangues of the Repeal Association.

•,„,-.
1 411 b." —, tn'equences were describepdea by my Noble
of 1q t 741 the_ el• ction no voter for those candidates
Of t. p,4t14 Coe „repeal of the Moon could come with
Ps jeltibt° poigi% vote, without the protectioneither
lees or. of the military.—(Loud cries
Ottiollt!4,l Ll' This My Lords, his is a sort of
1,10 the i% a sort of freedom which those who
they ,7,Y ettiona of the subject ate willing to per
theeY tbUt, my Lords, " Freedom of election"
(If 4444.% I,l' The indele.,sitile rights of voters'
t44:14, I:le
.4,ritY of election," and at
.the same timen
th 4: 3/44 4)....,3:4001 of violence and intimidation—
to to - 'hoich destrl •ti all freedom of elec-
refadrestribte IviiZ-1 if suffered to prevail, is worse
v",
_tcl
tOdien, of those abuses which I had
lut.t ..0414, 44 ..had to propose to your Li,rdships a
e 4 Of ti sti Stilanientary representatit.n.— (Cheers.)
d , thp
t, - 4112 - present
it di 7ottith,frY where the system prevails. Theisie, rb4.4 ti;::::ade the country—by night and }
Ives against all classes of the corn-

munity—for the purposes not only of public but pri-
rate vengeance. It is by no means true, that thess
isoraers-arise solely from tithes. There can he no doubt
List the feeling about collection of tithes has been very
strong—has produced many unfortunate eonsrquenioss
which, I am sorry, have not been pr. venred ; bet they
are directed to other objects. First of all, they pr scribe
on what terms land shad be let. Anybody disoltrying their
mandates is subject to have his property destroyed—even
the penalty of death inflicted on him. They prescribe
bow, and by whom, persons shell be employed ; they
turbid labourers from working for persons obnoxious to
them; and they forbid those who employ labourers born
employing those who are not completely subject to their
orders. All this, my Lords, is enforced by acts of the greata st
cruelty and outrage—by spoliati• n—by burnings-:-by
murders—by invasions—by attacks on boos s at dead of
night—by setting fire to them—by bringing the inmates
out—by cruelly beating them, even to such an extent that
death ensues—or by inflicting the lesser evil of immediate
death. My Lords, such is the state which exists in those
parts of the country in which the system prevails ; and
that it is conducted on a principle of organization is evi-
dent, not only from the objects they contemplate, but
from the manner they proceed. They are assembled,
as I have stated, in secret—there is a managing movement
among them—they watch the movement of the police—they
endeavour to avoid them, and it will be one of the provi
sinus of this Act to prevent thole associations at night.
from which those cruelties proceed. But there is
besides this, a moat serious object, and it shows how
absolutely necessary it is that Parliament should
enmediately interfere, by the grant of new powers,
in order to support the authorities of the law—it is thus
that armed violence is directed against those who, in the
execution of their duty, may act in carrying into effect
the provisions of the law. One of the chief causes
of proscription either of persons who are to he
sued, or to be employed, is their having assisted in
any way in prosecution according to law. There is one
singular instance of it which I must detail to your Lord-
ships. There is one case in which a mandate of proscrip
lion was issued against an unfortunate female—an
orphan child—whose mistress was ordered to dismiss
her from her service, because her mother had
given evidence on one occasion on a trial for a capital
offence.—(Hear, bear.) This . mandate was, of course,
issued under a threat of death.—(Hear.) And such oc•
currences are so numerous, that if the documents con
taining them were to be produced, they would cover the
table, and could not be read within any reasonable time.
But, as I was stating, the most dangerous, the most alarm-
ing, and, perhaps, the most fatal of their proceedings is
that which renders the law impotent to the detection
of guilt, and the punishment 01 the offenders; because
the vengeance of those persons is directed against those who.
either as prosecutors, witnessereor jurors, have been engaged
in earl ying into effect the provisions of the law. My Lords,
I should be happy to state to you many details, it it were
necessary, to satisfy your minds. 1 shall give one or two
instances of the manner. in which this intimidation has
been exerted to prevent witnesses and jurors from
doing their duty. My Lords, I have stated that
those measures of violence are directed against
those who occupy land contrary to the will of those who
issued those notices. I have in my hand a letter from a
chief constable, which states that so recently as the 29th
January last, Cashel was the scene of a most barbarous
murder. The letter stated that in the night previously, at
8 o'clock, five armed men went to the house of an md man,
not less than 70 years of age, ordered him to give up some
land which be had held for two years—took him out of his
baptise, and ohm him through the body. He survived only
half an hour. The constable took the son of the deceased to
Cashel, who was a witness of his father's murder, and whose
manner showed that he knew more of the transaction than
he was willing to disclose. This is an -instance of the
atrocious manner in which this power of terror is exer-
cised ; it prevents a son from even giving evidence against
the murderers of his own father. Your Lordships have
all seen stated the case of the policeman of Carrickshannon;
and what took place upon the proceedings respecting that
affair must be a satisfactory proof of the inability to carry
the law into execution. At the Kilkenny Assizes on one
trial the Jury aid nut agree—considerable excitement pre-
vailed-1-considerable apprehension of danger was enter-
tained, and within halt an hour atter the jury were dismissed
a placard appeared, stating the names of those who were
for the acquittal, and those who were for blood—as it was
stated : for their names were at tually headed, in the
placard " blood—blood." The consequence was, that
every one of those who were for the conviction, and who
were placarded as desirous of spilhog blood, were obliged to
leave the country. The steward of a Noble Friend behind
me, I believe, was one of those who, from this caus•-, were
obliged to leave the country. I think 5 were for the acquit.
tal, and 7 were fear the conviction—the latter were obli, ed
to leave their houses and their country. I base heard of e
great many instances, in which persons were thus obliged
to leave the country. And are not these instances suffi-
cient to tail upon you for measures to enable his Ms.
jesty's Government to enforce the law, which without
increased poster they .cannot do ? As a fur
titer proof of what is the effect of this system
of intimidation, you are all aware that a scene the most
unprecedented took p ace at the assizes of Clonmel epee
a trial ,against Penni-father. This was the trial of a
gentleman charged with a comas, Tracy to obstruct. 1.. e
collection of tit, es, and the most respectable Catholi
jurors kept away, nu doubt un- er the it.fitieilcr
of intimidation.—(Hear, hear.) But I can poiduci-
to the House, ever. a more striking case. It happened,
some time ago, that a gentleman—l am really rerard to
mention his name, although on tee point of asking yew-
L-rdenips to accede tai a measure which 1 hope will
render it no longer dangerous tat mention names—well,
then, a gentleman who occupied land was atrociously
murdered, early in the evening, within sight of his own
gate. This murder originated in a tithe dispute. Hi-
son •in-law was a witness of the murder, and
was subpceoed by the Coroner to give evidence respecting
it ; but he sent a message to say he would submit to arty.-
penalty the law officers of the Crown might think fit to
impose, rattier than appear in Court, as that would be
sure to lead to the forfeiture of his life. I have
in my hand a letter addressed to Sir William Gossett,
dated Kilkenny, the 20th of January last, from a person
employed upon those matters. Tue gentleman states that
the Waist conscientious jurors could not attend at the
next assize, but wotill suronit to any fine, for they
knew they should lose their lives, if they acted
according to their consciences. He states, also, that the
prisoners in all tee jails make it a boast that juries dare
nut convict them. It is nut necessary to go much further
to prove that Ireland is in so disordered a state as to
render recourse to remedies beyond the ordinary power of
the law necessary. In order, however, to bring the state of
Ireland down to the present moment, I will state to
the House the contents of a letter received from the
Attorney- General, dated the 24th of last month. He
states that the infornaatious upon the Home Circuit alone
are equal to those of the whole country two years
ago. He further states that out of one hundred anal
fifty cases be has examined, the victims of outrage
were not gentlemen or parties connected with tithes, but
the pour and delenceless, with respect to whom assassina-
tion seemed to be the order of the day. He also presents
me with vitt frightful list of crime committed between
the Ist of January, 1832, and the December of that
year; homicides, 241 ; robberies, 1,179; burglaries, 401 ;
eurnings, 568 ; houghing of cattle, 290 ; serious assaults,
163 ; riots, 201 ; rescues, 353 ; illegal notices of which I
have just stated the consequences, 2,09 t ; illegal meetings,
427; injuries to property, 796 ; attacks on houses, '723 ;
firing with intent to kill, 208 ; robberies of houses, 171 ;
illegal administration of oaths, 164 ; resistance to legal
process, 3 ; resistance to tithes, 50 ; turning up the
land, 20 ; taking forcible possession, 2 ; making alto-
gether a list of 9,002 crimes committed within one year.
It appears, my Lords, that this is a system in a state of
progression, for 1 have here a comparison of three months,
July, August, and September, and October, Nuvein-
er, and December. In the first three the number
amounted to 1,279; in the last to 1,646—50 that your
Lordships see that this stare of crime in Ireland is in estate
of most lamentable increase ; and this, my Lords, be it
remembered, is in the province of Leinster alone.
Now, my Lords, before I proceed to lay before your
Lordships the Bid which, in cons.quence of the state of
Ireland his Majesty's Government have thought it necessary
to propose, there is one thing on which I should
wish to say a few words ; but previous to doing so, I would
remark teat there outrages have not been confined to par-
ticular individuLls. Catholics have been murdered as well
as Protestants. Such is the state of Ireland, which appears
to have arisen from a general demoralization, such as never
before existed. Before stating the Bill to the House, I must
say a few words with respect to the Government and my-
self. I feel persuaded, my Lords, that I shall not he
charged by any of your Lordships with baying come too
soon to this House ; on the contrary, it there is any charge
to which 1 should he exposed, it would be that I had de-
ferred it too ion_—that I dial not listen, miring the last
session, to the urgent appeals that were made to me
to bring forward such measures. My Lords, my
reason for nut doing so was tie anxious desire 1 felt to
delay as long as possible the present application, to retard
it till the ra ceesity for it was such as to tome itself upon
the conviction of all men. My Lords, I dip not feel that
it is a heavy charge against the Government that they
have been slow to propose the measure, for I had hoped

the ordinary powers of the law, supported by a large military
force—a force the largest and most efficient that ever
Was in TrAarad Amine peace, and, I I;elieve, in point
of reeular ttoops, exceeding the proportien of nearly
four to one the amo; nt of the ;regular army in Ireland
it the time of the rebellion—l did hope, my
Lords, that tay the employment of such a force in sup.
port of the administration and execution of the law, the
trace of Ireland would have b-en preserved and conti-
nued. I iiid, therefore, my Lords, not consider myself
at liberty to propose measures of severity and coercion
till the powers of the law were cle.arly shown not to he
strong enough. My Lords, I should be sorry if,
from any neglect of ditty on my , part, any
of the evils which have befallen la-eland should
have been caused ; but there is this adyantaee, at least,
attendant upon the delay of the measure, that your Lord.
-hips must be at once convinced of the necessity of
bringing forward the measure at the present moment.
But it was not on my general cenfi !ence alone I acted.
The first essay was successful in sending a general special
commission into the count y of Clare, then the most disturbed
district in Ireland, and by the support of a great military
a perfsct peace was restored in that coun'y, and it
has remained so ever since. The same effect has been pro..
dueed in the Queen's County. Even' when a Noble Lord
lest year called upon me to resort to other measures,
there was then, in my opinion, every prospect of
success._(Hear, hear.) The first enforcement of tithes
gave hope that the collection of them would be seccees.
ful—it gave a hope, that, by the strong am-stance afforded
by Government, who never refused to give that security
which the urgency of the case required, the peace
of the country would be insured.—(Hear.) That hope,
I am sorry to say, bas failed, and we are, now
under the necessity of coming, before your Lordships to
ask you so to strengthen the heeds of Government; as to
enable us to act for the protection of the country. I, my
Lords, have omitted many things ; and, among others,
in speaking. of the intimidation held out to
witnesses and Jurors, I have certainly omitted
to state that Magistr des also have been intimidated and
threatened. Although it is their duty to act vigorously,
end it is the duty of Government to press upon them to
perform their duty, yet, when they are exposed as they have
been in some instances to danger, it is not unnatural
that they should shrink from a duty which exposed them
and their families to destruction. Therefore I am far
from imputing blame to them, knowing the system of in-
,imidatilon that prevailed; this, however, is an additional
argument in favour of the measures which I shall have to
pros ose. I have now, my Lords, to state the provisions
by which we mean to correct, to suppress, and to prevent.
the evils which I have detailed. I have stated that
the consideration of the subject before us divides itself
into two parts ; first, resp,cting all those associa-
tions I have described at some length and the
evils and dangers of which require no further explanation ;
and next, the repression of those violent disorders which
I have described. For this purpose his Majesty's Govern.
ment had before them various Acts of Parliament, appli-
cab'e to both cases, and the Bill which I shall
propose, combines the various provisions of several laws
passed both in the Irish and the English Parlia-
ments, at different periods, for the suppression of si-
milar evils, together with such alterations as the
circumstances of the times require. In the first
place, with regard to illegal societies. In the Bill
which I shall have to lay on the table, the provisions for
suppressing the associations are taken from the Act of the
Bth George the Fourth, chapter 1, commonly
known by the name of the Proclamation Act.
By this Act the Lord Lieutenant will he able to suppress,
by order, the meetings of every assembly deemed by him to
be dangerous to the public safety, or inconsistent with the
administration ol the law ; and all suppressed, or adjourned,
or continued meetings of the same, under any name
or pretext whatever. My Lords, these meetings which
were provided against by an Act of George IV. were
misdemeanors which came under the common law.
Under this they would be punishable as a misdemeanor
in the subsequent part of the Act. Provisions are
made for proclaiming districts in a state of disturbance,
in which a different mode of trial, and different Courts for
the purposes of that trial, will be instituted. Any
offences against this Act will be prosecuted before those
Courts within the proclaimed districts. This part of
the Act relates generally to the kingdom, and the
Lord Lieutenant will have the power of suppressing,
by a Proclamation, all meetings and adjourned meetings,
deemed by him illegal, assembled under any pretence, at all
times, and in all circumstances. My Lords, there is one
clause for giving effect to this power, by which it is
int- nded to euppre-s these associations. There
is also this provision, that the persons prosecuted
are under this Act obliged to plead forthwith, that is, they
will not he enabled to delay their trial. I do not
see how a case of this nature so intimately affecting the
public peace should not subject those who ate guilty of
them to what prisoners indict. d for felony are now sub-
ject.—(Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") My Lords, it is
then prOvided that the Lord Lieutenant, in order to pre-
vent disturbance, iney i.sue his proclamation declaring
any county to de disturbed, which county shall be
deemed a prod :hoed district. By these Proclamations
al the inhabitants a e to be warned to abstain from seer.
nous and other inala‘s-ul meetings, and continue in their
',tame, 'rein sunsett.ng to sunrise. Tnis, my Loads, is a pro-
vision taken from the 4th of George I. which aoeears abso
itoely iaec essay y under: the pi eseet circumstances Ms Lords,
I have stated that these assemblies are enabled to elude and
defeat the pursuit of the mil i; ary, and it is therefore necessary
that some ex,ranrilinary measure shied,' be adopted. This
provision is taken trim) the hewn eetion Act. i%ly Lords, by
sonic of the subsequent it is inyiineil tart in any
of those proclaimed districts, no meeting fur pi-ti iotoor
Parliament, or for considering any matter of Church
or State, shall be held unless there shall have been on
kys' notice of such meeting extensively circulated, and the
same notice given to the Lord Lieutenant, nor shall such
meeting he considered legal, air in any case allowed to be
held, without the consent of the Laid Lieutenant having
been obtained. This will only apply to those districts which
the Load Lieutenant shall have been obliged to proclaim.
My Lords, if this no ice was not required, the pruclamai ion
would be inoperative, except in Dublin, tor the meetings
might he held in distant parts of the country isefore the
proclamation could reach them. These, my. Lords, ate
some of the provisions contained in this Bill. But I
now come to a clause, which I could not have done
hut for its absolute necessity. Under the Insurrection Act
the power of bringing persons acct-ed of those affenc, a was
confined to the Justices, assisted by a Sergeant-at-law, or
one of his Majesty's Counsel, and to them was confided
the power of ttansportation. My Lords, under existing
circumstances, it is scarcely necessary for me to say that
there are many reasons why that course should not be
pursued. It has been shown in Ireland that Magistrates,
who have honestly exercised their functions, were not only
without influence, but were actually the subjects of feelings
of and were liable to lose their lives almost
every hour. .'Sow, my Loids, what remedy can there
he for all this ? All those things appear to his Majesty's
Government to render it absolutely necessary that Ireland
should, to a certain extent, be subject to martial
law.—(Hear, hear.) The Courtsmartial, constituted
as I shall present.y state, will he enabled to try all
offences committed, described in various Acts known
by the names of Whiteboyism, &c., as well as
offences committed under this Act. They will have
the power of trying those offences, and pronounc-
ing sentence in the same manner as other Courts-
uaartial.—(Hear.) My Lords, 1 know that this is a
substitution of unconstitutional Courts for the ordinary
Courts of law ; and I feel all the pain arising from the
necessity of adopting this course, that any one can 'semis
bly led; but then I leel that, to make a law effectual for
the suppression of all those evils, there s,eius to
be no possibility of stopping short of what I
have proposed to your Lordships. But, my Lords,
in making this provision, it is necessary to have'all the
security that is possible to be given. Uuder the former
Acts, where the power has been given to form martial
courts—l allude particularly to the 39th George
powers were given to the Lords Lieutenant to appoint
eourtsmartial as they ahou'd think fit, without re-
striction as to number.—(llear, bear, hear.) Here it
is provi ed that the courtstnartial assembled under
this Act shall -not consist of more than nine, nor less
than seven ; that no person less than 21 years of age, or
who has not held a commission in the army for two
years, shall be capable of being a member of the Court;
that they shall not have the power to try for death,
except by the special direction of the Land Lieu-
tenant—(lle,r)—ared even in that case, they shall
not have a power to inflict a sentence beyond transporta-
tion. These are the limits and securities which we are to
have added to those arising from toe general honour and
conduct of the officers of his Majesty's army, to attach
to the provisions of the law, which 1 acknowledge to be
unconstitutional, but which 1 feel to be absolutely necessary.
I almost forgot to state that there was a further security.
Under former losurrectien Acts, the Lord Lieutenant was
permitted to appoint Sergeants-at-Law, anti King's Counsel
to assist the Justices as Judge Advocate, but by this Bill it
is made imperative. I will not at present go into the de-
tails of the Bill, but there are one or two points to which
1 would claim your Lordships' attention. I have already
steed, that any per-on found out of his house between
sun-rise and sun-set, without legitimate cause, or absent
from their houses at the same periods without

legitimate cause, will be subject to the opera-
tion of the Act. It is also provided, that any per-
son disposing of seditious papers in a proclaimed district
sh,ll be considered guilty of a misdemeanor, and liable
to be imprisoned for not more than twelve months ;
but that it should be i❑ the discretion of the

courtmartlal to discharge him if he should make known
who einpleyel him. It is provided, that any attempt to
injure either the persons or pr iperty of any one who has
appeared as juror, witness, or prosecutor, shall carry the
penalty of transportation for seven or fourteen years.—
( Hear, hear.) Is former Acts the punishment for
this crime was death —(Hrar, hear.) It is evident
that, however faithfully or carefully the officers employi.rl
on those courtsmarti.,l may discloarg, th, ir duty, they will
be open to vexatious and malicious prosecutions, and,
there•ore, it is provide.l. that they shall not he
exposed to prosecution for anything in the dis.
charge of their duty, but, in order that they oily
be under some control, any offence of the nature of an
abuse of their power'', will be tried -by a courtmartial,
according to the ar•icles of war.—( ir.) Thus a miti-
gated system of martial law will be applied to those districts
the state of which will be such as to authorize the
Irish Government, under its responsibility, to vine a pro-
clamation to that eff,ct. Tlntre is another point I must
men ion. It is that in the event of a person detained
under this Act suing out a writ of Habeas Corpus within
three months slut I be a sufficient return to the writ, to
say that the person detained is so under this Act. This,
my Lords, is confined solely to proclaimed districts ;
so that there will be a limited suspension
of the Habeas Corpus Act in those districts. My Lords,
it seems to me absolutely necessary, in the execution of
this law, that such powers should be given, otherwise
persons might be withdrawn from the authority of
courtstnartial, by suing mit the Habeas Corpus Act.
(Hear, hear,) It is, my Lords, with pain that I have
brought forward a mertaure of. this nature,' and I trust
your Lordships will think with me, that necessity has been
shown for it. It will act as a partial suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act ; but the adoption of such a course,
I think every person veil see the necessity of.---(Hear,
hear, bear.) It is also, my Lards, provided, as a
further seeurity against improper organization, that
all persons arrested shall be brought to trial within
three calendar months or discharged. . I do not know, my
Lords, that it is necessary for me to proceed farther
with the general provisions of the Bill. There are many
subordinate points which it will be necessary to trouble your
Lordships with at a future, time. Stich, then, my Lords,
is the mi-asure which I have brought forward. It borrow'
some of its provisions from the Insurrection Act, and it
particularly suspends the Habeas Corpus Act. These,
my Lords, are powers which, in the ordinary exercise of
justice, are absolutely incompatibla with the British
Constitution. But they are powers, my Lords, which
the necessity of the case appeals to me most loudly to call
for, and which the state of Ireland can alone Justify.—
(Hear.) This, my Lords, is the condition of all Go-
vernments. Powers of this nature, if constantly
exercised, would entirely prevent the existence of a Go.
vrrnment. But if exigencies arise in which the public safety
is endangered, without the means of conferring such extra-
ordinary powers as I now require at the hands of the House
what, I would ask, would become or such a Government ?
But on the titaxim—" salus populi, suprenia lex," it
has been the practice of all Governments, when
the state of the country threatened public tranquillity—
when order was destroyed—and the liberty of the people
in danger, to resort to the Parliament of the country togive
them extraordinary powers. My Lords, the foundation
of all true liberty is public order, and the moment
that public order is destroyed, liberty does not exist.
Under a Government, my Lords, possessed of arbitrary
power, liberty could not exist. But under a Government
poss. ssed not of the power to control such violence as I
have described, the security of society would be put an
end to altogether. Tile question, then, my Lords,
is, whether a case of such necessity has been
made out. Now, my Lords, I have stated to your
Lordships what have been the endeavours of Government
to enforce the law ; -how and by what mans they have
attempted to effect that purpose ; bow they
have attempted to put an end to these illegal
associations ; fur illegal they are, though by cunning
devices they may be kept within the strict letter of the
law. They are illegal, for they threaten the peaee, security,
and liberty of Ireland. I have shown your Lordships iu
what manner the outrages which have been commit-
ted in Ireland, have affected property, and even
the lives of the peaceatile subjects of that coun-
try. --(Hear, hear.) I have shown your Lordships that
the power of the law has been unable to effect the peace o
Ireland. And in this extreme dilemma, my Lords, with
entire confidence, I throw myself upon your Lord.hipe,
and propose those measures which, I trust, will have the
effect of putting an end to these associations.—(Hear.)
There is another point which I wish to mention,
and which I forgot in the early part of my
speech.—( Hear.) I mean a measure to change the venue
in all cases where intimidation shall he practised so as to
enable the Crown, if a fair trial cannot be had
in the neighbourhood of the place where the
offence may be committed, to remove the trial, and to
fix any part of the county, for the purpose of having a
more fair and impartial Jury. That is a measure
which I consider absolntely neeess,,ry. I now, my
Lards, beg pardon fur haviog trespassed so long on
your Lora st.ips' attention, and I nave to thank you for
the indulgence you have shown towards me.—(Loud
cheery.) I wi'l n ct.nelude by moving that the Bill be
laid on the tittle —(Great cheering.)

The Earl oi LONGFORD was understood to admit
he necessity of the mi.,..tires proposed by the Niible Earl
for the pee tleation of Ir la 41. He allowed that the gni
sery and disorpniz soon in odic cininiry were se. y grew,
and that coercive wee-urea w, re, therefore, absolutely
necessary ; but what had produe d that disA.goiiization ?
—Theme could he La doubt that it was ti .e system of agi
tation pursued by persons who, from the situations in
whieli they were placed—or, indeed, in any situation—
should not have encouraged such acts of violence and in-
subordination. He knew that agitation was eneiiu-aged
by the Noble Lord to whom the Admiiii-traiion of that
country was intrusted, and that that agitation never would
have reached the length to winch it has now arriveo,
were it not for the encouragement riven by that Noble
Lord. Tiie Noble Lord was then understood to refer to
a letter in which the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland encourage t
agitation. His Lordshipcould not hope for amendment in the
state of Ireland as long as the reins ut the Government were
confided to the hands ef the No le Ma Tits who at present
held them He, indeed, did not consider that his Ma-
jesty's Government was justified in recommending the
Noble Marquis to his Maj s y as the Governor of that
country. He was not alone of that opinion ;it was an
opinion very generally entertained in Ireland. He would
make one single remark regarding the measures proposed
by the Noble Earl. He (Lord Lorton) 'lid not consider
these measures as strictly coercive ; he cons dered them as
bona fide protective measures; for the greater part of the
people of Ireland were perfectly willing to abstain from
agitation if adequately protecte.l from the comparatively
small number ss ho agitated that country. He considered
it atisolutely necessary to extend protec.tion to the upper
classes against those who were urged on by the bloody and
treasonable counsels of a few factious agitators.

The Duke of WELLINGTON then rose and said, he was con-
vinced the Noble Earl opposite would not suppose that he had
any motive, in formerly rioposing some such measure as that
now proposed by his Lwdship, but a sincere conviction of the
necessity of adopting measures for the settlement of Ireland.
The Noble Earl might rely upon it, that he (the Duke of Wel-
lington) would not oppose the measures now proposed ; but, on
the contrary, that he would give them every support in his
power—(cheers)—and further, that he would say nothing that
night, which might be calculated to create irritation, or to pro-
duce soreness in regard to the causes which obliged the Noble
Earl to adopt these measures. He continued still of the same
opinion which he had formerly declared in that House, that
some measure should have been adopted by his Majesty's
Government at an earlier period, to quell the disturbances
in Ireland. He still continued to entertain the opinion which
he then expressed—that the Proclamation Act ought to be
continued in force—an opinion in which the Noble Earl aid
not at that time coincide. He had frequently stated to their
Lordships what he feared would occur, and they now saw that
the state which he foretold did actually exist in Ireland. He
hoped that the Noble Earl would be successful in the measures
which he was about to adopt in that country. In allusion to
the evils described by the Noble Earl, and the measures
adopted to quell them, he (the Duke of Wellington) would
make a few observations. In the first place, he feared that the
greatest evil of which Ireland had to complain was in some
measure lost sight of. He did not think that the measures
proposed by the Noble Earl were sufficiently directed against
the demagogues who were continually urging the people to acts
of violence against the Government. He feared that the mere
suppression of the Habeas Corpus Act, though he admitted that
that was a strong measure, would not be sufficient in the present
instance. He would beg the Noble Earl to recollect one circum-
stance, it was necessary for those sitting in judgment on delin-
quents to examine evidence upon oath, in order to form a correct
judgment of the guilt or innocence of the parties ; but he feared
that in consequence of the system of intimidation pursued,
there would be a difficulty in procuring evidence, if means
were not taken to protect the witnesses. He had no doubt
but the Noble Earl might depend on the officers of the army—
(Hear)—but then they must have evidence before them, or
they could form no judgment. He did net say that in opposi-
tion to the plan proposed by the Noble Earl, but merely threw
it out as a subject for his consideration. He had one further
observation to make regarding the executive part of the plan—
which was, that unless the guilty offender could be brought
within the meaning of the Insurrection and rroclarnation Acts,

he could not be brought before court:a:Alai. He would Pure:

remark, that the Noble Earl had said that the sentence of ti.
courtmartial should take effect at once, and without revision.
That was not the case, as no sentence pronounced by.a court-
martial could be put in force till approved of by superior. autho.
ity. He concluded that the Lord Lieuteuantwould be the pro.
per authority to give that approval, but, at all events, it would
he imp,ssible to get an officer to put a sentence in execution, un-
less some superior authority were responsible for it Therewere
certain observations made by the Noble Earl on which he wished
to make a few remarks- The Noble Earl stated, that the con-
cession of the Catholic claims had not produced all, the gcod
effects expected from it, and he hinted, that one reason why.
those good effects were not produced-was,- because the conces-
sion was forced from the Government. He,.(the. Duke of
Wellington) had addressed their Lordships over and over again
on the causes which had induced him to recommend to his
Majesty the concacNion of those claims. He stated that Ireland
for many causes, was bordering on a civil war, and .he con.,
sidereal it better to grant ti:at c7tacession, in order to pacify the
country. He stated, however, that civil war was not to be ex_.
pected. He stated, indeed, that if-concession were not granted,
it might stir up civil war, but never that he had adopted that
Measure. in order to prevent civil war. lie allowed that the.
country was in as bad, if not a worse, state than if it were in a
state of civil war, and that those concessions were made as a
remedy for those evils ; but he had never said that the dread
of civil war was the cause of making the concession. He con-
chided by saving, that he would be happy to give every support
in his power to. the Bill proposed-to be brought forward by the
Noble Earl, opposite.

The Earl of UXBRIDGE had listened with the greatest
attentiOTl'and surprise to the speech of the Noble Earl (Long-
ford), in which he charged his Noble Relative, the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, with having created agitation in that coup_
try, though the Noble Earl must be aware that agitation- pre-
vailed in Ireland long before his Noble Relative had any share
in the Administration in that country. He thought it would
have been but justice if the Noble'Earl had read the whole of
the letter to which he alluded.—(Hear.) It would then be
seen that what was meant by the words ." Agitation, Agitation,
Agitation !" only meant that the people should adopt .every
legal means to procure the object they had then in view.
Lord LONGFORD did not mean ,to say that the Lord
Lieutenant created the agitation,. but by the encouragement
which he gave to the agitators, the mischievous consequences
which were so apparent in Ireland were produced.
The Earl of ELDON said that, in order to preserve the liber-
ties of the country, it was necessary that the Government
should have the power to enforce the laws. The question now
was, whether these extraordinary powers were to be granted for
a limited period, or till the mischief was removed. He thought
that these powers should be granted till the ordinary laws ofthe
country were found sufficient to protect the people and enforce
the laws.

Earl GREY considered with the Noble Earl (Eldon) that
the only principle on which the powers now asked could be
granted, was that of necessity; and, acting on that principle,
he did not consider that these powers ought to endure biyond
the necessity which occasioned them; and he (Earl Grey)
never intended that they should endure beyond that necessity.
He was afraid, however, that the necessity would not
cease as early as he wished ; but the earlier the better.
Nothing would please him more than to have it in his power to
say that they were no longer necessary. It was his intention
to ask that these powers shouldbe extended till the end of next
Session, in order that the House might have an opportunity of
ascertaining if the necessity continued. He was perfectly
aware of the difficulty of obtaining evidence in Ireland, but he
hoped that when the additional security which the measures he
proposed were put in force, it might induce witnesses to be less
reluctant in giving their evidence. If, however, the emergency
should occur, he would be happy to consider the suggestion
made by the Noble Duke. He did not, however, think that
it would be necessary.
The LORD CHANCELLOR deplored the necessity which,
in his opinion, was the only reason which could justify his Ma-
jesty's Ministers in adopting the measures which had been that
night proposed for their Lordships' consideration. In pro.
pounding that plan, he took his full part of the responsibility
of it upon himself; and he thought that he was justified in
that. First, on the ground of absolute necessity. The duties
between the governed and the Government were reciprocal.
A Legislature had no right to enact obedience to its laws, un-
less that Legislature could afford sufficient protection to the
liberty of the subject ; and the crowned head which could not
afford protection, he looked upon as an usurper. The facts,
which had been brought before them that night pretty much in
detail, were of such notoriety, that it was unnecessary for him
to go over them. But it was a fact of melancholy notoriety,
that the honest and industrious cannot, as the law now stands
in Ireland, obtain effectual protection. This was one reason
why he heartily concurred with the Noble Earl in recommending
to their Lordships those extraordinary powers; in order to
strengthen the Executive. The next ground was, that he hoped
it would prove effattive in settling the disturbances in Ireland.
Had it been a paltry innovation on the Constitution—he meant
trifling in its effects—he would have had some doubt as
to the propriety of the adoption; but the very magnitude of
the powers required, the greatness of the infringement on the
liberty of the subject—the very extremity to which the mea-
sure went, afforded the best security that it would be of short
duration. Though a measure severe in its nature and stern in
its aspect, it was, he hoped, effectual, and it would be limited
in its operations. He would advert to the objections brought
by the Noble Duke :—First, as to courtsmartial ; and, second,
as to the difficulty of getting evidence. And he thought that
the first point was amply provided for, as all the magistrates
and the police force were required to assist those tribunals;
and with respect to the difficulty of getting evidence, owing to
intimidation, he thought that the other parts of the measure
which would prevent those nocturnal acts of violence which
were so severely felt, would restore confidence among those who
had to give evidence. The next ground on which he supported
this measure, was his entire confidence in the persons in
whose hands the execution of those powers would come.
Those extraordinary, and, he hoped, limited powers, were
in the hands, first, of the Noble Viceroy of that un.
happy country. When he called it unhappy, he meant
that it was so as being the, prey of disturbance. In the
Noble Viceroy's tried firmness he had the greatest reliance.
It was the peculiarity of all kindly natures to be stern, when
cases of necessity required severity. ThOugh his Noble Friend,
the Mover of this measure, had been obliged to have recourse to
the sterner feelings of his nature on this occasion, he had such
confidence in the known and tried gentleness of that nature,
that it gave the amplest security that not one iota of those co-
ercive powers would be abused, which necessity peremptorily
compe.l al him to ask for. No, not one of those powers, he felt
co .vinced, would be called into action, unless the most absolute
necessity demanded it. He said this of his Noble Friend,
because he knew the feeling, of warm affection which he
entertained, more especially towards that port:on of the people
of the empire for whom they were now called upon to legis_
late. His Noble Friend, if necessity compelled him to make
use of the extraordinary powers he demanded, would take
care that the execution or those powers should be tempered
with gentleness and mercy. As for himself, he would unhe.
sitatingly declare that he would be the last man in the
world to countenance or approve of the measures now sought
for at the hands of their Lordships, did he not consider that
they would not only be a means of relief, but of sterling im-
provement. They would be a means of improvement, for other
beneficial measures were in preparation, and would immedi-
ately follow, when the authority of the law was restored in
Ireland, and when the tranquillity of that country was brought
back. It was not until that country was restored to such a state
that the Government would be enabled to best consult its in.
tercsts. He would conclude by assuring their Lordships that
his Majesty's Government had nothing more at heart than the
peace, prosperity, and liberty of Ireland.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH had been more than once called
upon to vote for coercive measures towards Ireland, and he had
invariably done so with the most unfeigned regret, which he
considered to be upon such melancholy occasions the gene. al
feeling of that House. If he had voted for former coercive
measures against his wishes, how much stronger mnst now be
his reluctance to support the present measures, when be con.
sidered them as nothing less than a complication of all the
coercive measures hitherto proposed with respect to Ireland
Though certainly he felt disposed to support Government
in their efforts to uphold the law in this sad emergency, still
he wished to examine and compare those measures, and
see whether the . acts complained of justified such unex-
ampled measures of severity and coercion. Such were
his feelings upon every occasion that extraordinary powers
were demanded. For the present, he forbore to point out the
arts committed by the present Government, as well as these
they abstained from, which, in his opinion, mainly led to the
evils they all now deplored. He would say no more then than
merely repeat the extreme pain and regret with which he
would vote for the details of the proposed measure, even
though he should think them the very best to meet and re.
medy the existing evils complained of. He begged before
he sat down to be informed when the Bill was to be read a se-
cond time ?

Earl GREY—On Monday.
Lord CLONCURRY thought it advisable to postpone for
some time the coercive measures contemplated, until the erects
the new measure of Church Reform would have in Ireland
were known.

Lord LANSDOWN avowed that the measure was severe
and awful, but still it was a necessary one. Government had
applied all ordinary means to bring about the pacification of
Ireland, and had unfortunately found that they were not of
sufficient avail. Therefore, the necessity of applying to their
Lordships for extraordinary measures was imposed upon Go-
vernment, in order to protect the peaceable inhabitants of
Ireland, and at the same time maintain the prosperity of this
country. A Noble Baron who had just left the House, and who
claimed great merit for his forbearance, had said that the evils
which preyed upon Ireland were the results of what the present
Government had done, and what it omitted to do. If that Noble
Baron had been in his seat, he (Lord Lansdown) would be able
to answer the accusation he had thrown out against Govern-
ment, and prove that the evils of Ireland were to be attributed
to very different causes from those instanced by the Noble Ba.
run. He did not at present mean to enter into any of the topics
connected with his Noble Colleague's measures, but he could
not help thinking it rather strange, that the Noble Baron
was the only one who thought fit to call for documentary ev
dence, on a subject upon which the minds of all were satisfied,
both in the House and out of it. It was self.evident that
there existed a state of things in Ireland incompatible with the
liberty of that country, and with the interests of thepoor as well
as the rich. When such was the fact—when it was of the
most general notoriety that such a grievous state of things
existed—was it not unwise to wish to examine a large mast of
documents, the examination of which would lead to a delay
that would be most probably fatal to the measure proposed ?
Besides, there was another serious objection to the production

of duet:, -. :t t,.
chbure 0f hatne:!, w 1,..•;, :au, pats Irelond wild be
attended by the most tyrannical pers,cutions and those per.
seciitions would be especially exercised over the poor, who
at all times had particular claims on the protection of Go-
vernment. If the measures were to be adopted. at all, they
should be without delay, and upon the manifest authority of the
exigencies of the case. It would be time enough to enter' iiito
rtf nute d,tails when the measure was discussed in 'CriniMit:
tee ;., and lee:felt confident,: that -the.teStilt of their.Lordsbips'
aelitleiaiions would be, the restoration of peate'rcand- tran-
Amilirty". in Ireland, and the enablim okthe ,Government to
poosecute the measures of relief and improvement they in-
tendesito confer On the eatiiittry kle'entirely agreed with the
measures of the Noble Earl who opened the discussion, and if.
his Noble Colleague erred, then he pleaded guilty with him.
Government, a. 4 tong A i lingering hope remained of securing
property and Bib in Ireland, had recourse to no extraordinary
means but from the moment they felt the sad conviction that
the ordinary legal means were insufficient, they felt it their
duty—as it was the deity of every Government, be it composed
of whom it may—to give security to those they governed. It
had been well said by his Noble and Learned Friend on the
Woolsack, that if Government 153 not afrord protection to its
subjects, it could not possibly expect any allegi,..nce from them.
The Earl of WICKLOW hoped, after the recommendation
a Noble Duke had given in the course of theevening, all acri-
mony in discussion would have been refrained from. He was
sorry ,to hear the allusions of a Nobs: Marquis ';ow:-..-rds the.
Noble Baron who had. just left the House. Thr,v ',ere not
conceived in the best temper, and would on :v tend to cause
intemperate heat in discussing a subject upon which the best
feelings should prevail upon all sides. He entirely concurred
with the feelings of forbearance expressed by the Noble Ba-
ron, and must also say with him, that however necessary •
the measures proposed were, they were so severe that he was
exceedingly desirous that documentary evidence should behold
upon the table. . .
the Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be read a
second time on Monday next. ,

The House adjourned at a quarter to nine o'clock, until
ten o'clock on Monday.

COURT OF KING'S BENCH, Fca. 15.

THE MAYOR. AND CORPORATION OF LIVERPOOL, V.
BOLTON AND OTHERS.
(ContirobA from our Paper ye=terday.)

. -
Mr. Thema. Corrie's cross-ex:mination continued_.
The Common Council appointed the auditor or wirneNes
icconnts. The 4/. that was retained was a charge upon
ntaider roots. Stith roots came in sm til bales from the
Mediterranean. Mr. Bolton had himself. from time to
time, admitted that he was the exporter awl importer of
the goods in queation. but refused to pay the tolls, for the
'purpose of trying the question. Did not know in which
dock any of the goods were landed. Witness had been in
the Common Council of Liverpool since 1811. The Cor-
poration had been at great expense in buile,ne churches,
of all of which the presentation was in the Corporation, the
sittings of which they let, supporting 01 the estab:ishments.
By Sir J. SCARLETT—Had bad complaints on the
heavy dues demanded on the importation of Motngeet.
Mr. Bolton had always paid the duty up to MO. Fire-
bricks had been imported and exported .o and tivors Li-
verpool, but witness did not know the difference between
their value and common bricks.

' By a Juror—Canes paid a duty of 2d. a thousand,
imuld also charge the same upon bamboos.
Joseph Molesdale examined by Mr. Poet.ocit— Wars
Principal coast officer of Runcorn. Remembered the late
Mr. Knyvett, the receiver of the dock anti town's due- for
Liverpool at Runcorn. Had been frequently with him
when he had calculated the town's duea, and received them.
A. person named Jnnes was the present receiver . Wrtnese
did not know whether Mr. Bolton hid had any goods
landed at Runcorn, as it was not his bulginess to inquire the
name-of the owner of the goods.
Mr. Foster, examined by Sir JAISEE Scamotrr—Since
the death of Mr. Stetham, had been appointed town clerk.
There was a Court of Passage in Liverpool, of which the
Judge was the Mayor; all port of causes
°were tried there.
Witness had acted as coroner for the borough, and had sat
on bodies taken up on the Cheshire side of the river. Had
never summoned Juries from Runcorn ; they were always
summoned from the borough. The writs in the Court of
Passage were executed all over the waters of the Mersey,
Warrington and Frodehion Bridge, and the Red-house.
Fled known persons frequently arrested on the river, and
had himself arrested persons at the extremity of the river
who were running away. "
By Mr. Sergeant wiL.E—Had other charters than
those which had been prOductfel.
This closed the case for the plaintiff.
Mr. Sergeant WILDS then rose to address the Jury on
behalf of the defendants; previous, however, to which the
Learned Counsel submitted to the Learned Judge, whe-
ther the evidence which had been produced by the plaintiff
was sufficient to main'ain the cause in Court, the deeds
which had been put in clearly not tracing the property
into the possession of the Corporation of Liverpool.
The LORD CHIEF Jus'recx said that he would take.
a note of the Learned, Sergeant's objection ; but in his
charge to the Jury he should tell them that if there was
a right to tolls, that right was in the Corporation. .
Mr. Sergeant WILDS then proceeded to address the
Jury. Tbe Court and Jury had been occupied a day and
. half with the case of the plaintiffs, without a single silo-
.
Nion having been made to any point that was mates id to
the defendant. He believed that the defendant had,a per-
fect good answer to the case. The C.',rporatiort of Liverpool
received no less than 50,0001. a year. through the medium
of those tolls, and they did not spend h. to afford conveni-
ences for the very parties upon whom the tolls were levied,
It was true that they had improved the town,. but three
~arts of it were their own ; it was true they had
built new churches, but it was equally true that they
appointed their own sons to be rnitisosrs of those churches;
ic was trod that. they had widened the streets, hut who
ever heard of that being necessary for the improvement of
a port? Now, with respect to the grants upon which the.
,vloale case rested, he (the Learned Couns.l) denied it to
he in the power of the King to erant tolls unties* such
:room would confer a benefit on hie subjects. The present
toll was eh ally nothing else but a toll thorough, which
could endure only as long as a benefit existed. The psi
vats Acts of Parliament which had been put in were no
more evidence of the pl tit's than i' they hail teen
'ank paper. Iu the reign of Anne, the hat b.= Liver-
phol not being sufficient to accounnielate the trade, the
C •rporation did not enlarge the harbour themselves, but
applied to Parliament, with whom they .n-ibit a b ifeain,
that a certain portiou of the publia shhttiti he ex--
tolded in the erection of a dock, they vivitoa secoriv
the amount on their tolls. N'tFre the Ceroora•tion of
pool, therefore, woo wood not Live tt.e Wilk. that arson:..
modation they wanted, but wziel, was given at t',e public
expense, now to reap the honeftt4 ci the outlay of
public money ? The thing was in irself nionstr-ius. His
Lest ned Friend had said that if the prasent toils
were put a stop to, the improvement of Liverpool would
be at an end. if it was preper that Live, pool should be
improved at the expense of the public, he should say, let it
be done by Act of Parliament, but don't improve it by
axing the public in the manner the 1 had been taxed at Li-
verpool. He, the Learned Counsel, thougt t that 50,000/.
a year was rather too good pay for doing nothing. He never
saw a toll so cunningly exacted as the present ; ns sooner
did a ship ent-r the port of Liv,rpool, than instantly a man
with a large brass plate of office appearen to demand the
tells, and such was the colour given to the transaction that
peore were off their guard, or i' not, they were afraid to
try the question with a wealthy Corporation ; he should ee
very sorry to recommend any gentleman to ass-rt that the
costs of the present contest would not exceed 15.000/.
Poop e, therefore, were obliged either to submit to be
uined by this heav! tax, or by a law-Ruiz, if they re.
fused to pay them. It was said that Mr. Bolton had paid
the dues, up to 1350 ; that was true, and so he probabil
would up to the present hour, had he not heard that
a neighbour was carrying on his trade without payii.g a
single toil, and all because the Corporation had chesen to
make him a freeman. The Learned Counsel then con-
tended that the grants referred to eerie na suck ate' as that
which was now demanded by the Corporaaioa of Liverpool.
He had endeavoured to get from sonic of slue witnesses some
information about the Corporations, but tt aprvred they
bad left their memories behind them ; and t„, ask them
about the deck* or Corporation, was to tterri iikr.tut at-
•ack of the cheleta.—(Latighter.) One gentleman could
not recollect that upon a parcel of munket, which paid
Si. in town's dues, only 4s. 6a. of dock dues had been
charged, What would the Jury think of such an enor-
mous charge as 8/. upon an arttcle, the wh de business
[elating to which had been thine by the Dock Company
for 4s. 6d. ? The Learned Counsel said hr w .uld next ad-
vert to the Aots of Parliament. He would assume for the
pi esent that the toll was well fouuded, awl then, he con-
tended, that it' he c,,uld show that the cen iteration for
the toll bad been withdrawn, the toll war no longer
payable. • The Act of Anne recited, that, eriereas great
danger and loss of life and property had twitted to ships
and crews going to Liverpool, from the want of convenience,
and the want ol buoys and lenduiarks, and it provided,
that, in consideration of a certain toll upon the tonnage of
~hipping, the Corporation might erect a wet dock. The
very recital of that Act showed that there was not sulficieM
accommodation for ehippiug, and therefore there was tiler
no consideration fur the dues now claimed. .The a" made
in accordance with that statute was now filled up, and the
o
and used for building purp,ses. There was an end,
theerreefre
:to the cidisid
severalother mk
all the foreign whipping trade was done in .the docks
eeraAriretsu ,
d sitei appease,.
fur tsalh There
that
w
at Liverpool,
.for the bleat/ wee so ;helm% that tt