The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-21 00:00:00

.tent reason fur the Government not supporting his mo-
d 2 ion a/ e considered, therefi re, that in bringing forward
sotion in the middle of February instead of the mid-
statedle J my he had overcome the chief objection then
bead cbY the Government. The Noble Lord a the
se the Government had frequently stated his`piion that it might be desirable at sense time or other to
gnd the suffrage. Well, the liwasure which he (Mr.
e\
!„itheasn7.as now proposing would in no way interfere
future plan which the ',Table Lord might have
Jew. The plan ehich he had to propose web simple
its nature, moderate in its terms, aed practical in its
operatio
fame n, and ho thought it might be said to have thisn
mid they merit, that it would pave the way for the greet
fer e trusted comprehensive measure of reform which
begthe
11°.°11se was to be favoured with by the Noble Lord
proper time arrived.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not believe that the present Bill would interfere with
rf'PY principle of the Reform Bill. It did not propose to
ranchise one borough or to add a single representa-
tsetititiet:onl_l_it proposed to do was to remove some of the
ae"aalies that existed with respect to the repro-
to give the inhabitants of one locality
utleci_Bslne rights and advantages as wore already enjoyed
" the sisme circumstaeces by the inhabitants of
;collier lacalite.—
Y (Hear.) He would not shock the
141 ire of the Noble Lord by introducing the word
toll` on on the present occasion, or. by going into de-
hieelectoral districts, which had beea called
eeeved, discussions about squares and parallelo-
inagns." Neither would he discuss the question respect-
whiri
ttb,e number of electors to each representative,
nad also been called " arithmetical caleuletions;"
and he trusted he might, on his part, be allowed to ex-
the'ts a hope that the discussion would not lead to re
eer about the dangers of revolutioa in connexion with
to lin•-(Efear, hear.) The measure which he propo ed
,_rsubosit to the House was one so simple in its charac-
II that the most moderate and cautious reformer might
044: sodopt it.—(Hear, hear.) It contained nothing
tlieeuld at all interfere with those conditions which
psetif;°hie Lord last year declared to be essential to the
sea 684 of reform. The Noble Lord on that occasion
41. " he had always considered it a condition in every
e„,°134, a-st condition which he thought had been happily
beie-w-tehiiclih:ba3e
ICtiPtied with hitherto—that the representation of that
ode in which it was constituted, the mode
people elected their repro sentatives, should
ofesee°llPatible and consistent with a monarchy and House
weeds.. N_
0 the present small and comparatively
httifictint
stren measure was at all events perfectly cun-
t() with things as they were, and would tend
%o—.
eh gthen rather than to weaken both the
h° Y and the House of Lords.—(Hear, hear.)
beat, pad that he who had made the greatest,
eve,:e 'se 'a roost important social revolution which had
Pta en effected in modern times would not object to
te- those great anomalies which now existed with
ieye to the
.... repo, when could be sown
-aet
(li could be don eresentati thou wit incurring the slightest risk.
Pres—peat) hear.) He would likewise maintain that the
be, Was a measure of sound policy. It had often
it `said that they ought to extend the franchise as far
doing Told possibly be done with safety, and that by so
mod tne Legislature would be more respected, the law
daredPleallstly obeyed by the people, and propertyren •
• titer. ,Ooubly secure.—(Hear.) He would ask could
tamer°e any doubt of the respectability of, that vast and
itita class who would be affected by this Bill? Was
scent to this very class that a great part of the Govern-
ao„t'it owed their seats in that House?—(Hear, hear.) He
stib"'d seriously and gravely ask if a man was a better
i4%,l4oectthwerh;_n he( lived in one locality than when he lived
PPosit Hear, hear.) He might here quote a very
' that
extract from a document which had been sent
14 1, Very day:—
ties ens of thousands of men, in certain favoured locali-
tit., distributed over the face of the kingdom (I believe
)0. ,distributed
for 1850, freemen included, is 471,502), en-
of 10/ elective franchise because they pay a yearly rent
,
seat_ and upwards; and tens of thousands of men,
its ;red over the remaining portions of the country,
Yeeta:Prived of the elective franchise because they pay a
re 11144 rent of 101. and upwards to 501. The test of the
vete e fitness and due respectability to possess the
iitti certain places, is measured by a rent of 101 but
oes°4ler places by a rent of 50/. This distinction with-
% 4 difference is invidious, and manifestly unfair."
tben'lght bring forward a vast number of cases to show
lzutgreat anomalies which existed. He would take, for
theattitu.ce, the county which he represented. He found
eett.hul the borough of Reigate, one of the smallest be-
stir° in the kingdom, a 102 householder was repre-
liatitTh whereas in the large town of Croydon, which.
Sarre
speaking, might be considered the capital
shortrrei, a man might rent a house just somewhat
mete °f sole—he might transact business in the
Itolera"""s, and be well acquainted with all that was
tire re-
Seigel!" in the country, and yet be entirely u p
thigh..t,:ll.len there was the case of a mechanic, who
reiah, re la a house rented at 151. or 20/. a yaer,
bank,who
IQ; have a 100/. or 2001. accumulated in savings
ttiberlieret, simply because he did not live in a town, would
hPresented. Compare this man with an agricul-
bolikigijnorer, who might have a 40s. freehold, and who
nand
..ensequently be represented.—(Hear, hear.) He
a e "at help thinking that these were great anomalies
felt husetehllipnce
kid .-untrY Where we professed to represent property
, and nothing else.—(Hear, hear.) He
`ilia a stronger claim to the support of the House
Acs fhs,t,than he had last year, in consequence of the
ett t dtt-t:ssut h4f!t: Since
A c.l been passed to extend the franchise to
assear No man could regret more than he
marred in its passage from that
tendedu" and ba.ek weaire—(Hear, hear.) ball he con-
to that the again.—(Hear,
aretod same principle which had been applied
%ant , the principle of placing the borough and
tead
,tY franchise on the same footing, ought to be ex-
fees,:a",to Eng
4 .rd land also. The Noble Lord, in bringing
that Bill, said—
f
14tChe Measure proposes to place the people of Ireland
set i the
to representation, in a position, n point of
terai,
.-slgoo.d as that ,cola te people of England and
e pin
bot t is founded to
h„ principle that theybe should
treated as inferior to t , p. ()pie of England and
Seethatadt but that they have a ri'ght when England and
Posai:hd possess a certain franchise, to be lilac, d in a
hies in that respect equivalent to both those.' coup.
So at'ijlt that right they do not at present enjoy, and
WI sr" the more does it become justice, does it become
Gri-„°,10. to unite the people of Ireland with the people of
aisel:tritain, in showing, by equal treatment of both,
titleiVing them an equal franchise, you have full cen-
se:N.3;e In the manner in which they will use that
theTtY and that franchise, and that they may have all
Niayeeedeml which exists in any other part of the United
eseaeo
thevial„tnat had been conceded to Ireland he claimed on
:at LP of those who resided in the counties of England,
4;
to that it would be aiding insult to
gat°, Say that the people of Ireland we. Fe. more
.aati t-ts trusted in the exercise of the ;ranch'
13arier,e People of England were.—(Hear, hear.)
tie; `"e discussion of the Irish Franchise Bill, one Was ,
tet, Strongest arguments adduced in its favour
Isiew."l-14 .Lthe constituencies bad actually decreased.
I /t ue
Sakelsei,,„ 'unlight he could show that the county consti-
.Te °` England had decreased also. By comparing
eget, setoral register of 1536 with 1849-50, he found
Ilnas eset,7Bla! decrease in Berks of 1,039; Devon, 1.123;
\t
~led ;; Reretord, 319; Shropshire, 505; Vres -
',meat% L'll Wiltshire, 585; and in Worcester,
Cdr.) But he might be told that he was going
184aCic °3
ari• He would, therefore, compare the register
hat; -;''to that 1850. By this comparison he found
th-A.: was a decrease in Bedford of 415; Berks,
esies'cia, 1,753; Dorset, 843; Hereford, 1,088;
-ii,1111%-'.,rel 998; Stafford, 1,577; Suffolk, 831; West
"oree'L)4Bt Westmoreland, 210; Wilts, 584; and in
"taila-st,'"er, 1,379.—(Hear, hear.) Comparing the total
?tied cotinty electors in 1843 with that of 1850, he
461,4131k‘ ill 1843 the number was 484,073, and in 1850
hewings~ a decrease of 22,666 in seven years,
41
,000 boroughs there had been an increase of
Pe :lie thought that these facts proved that if
`teleSil'Ple which bad been laid down with regard to
oiseutc Last session was a sound one, it ought to be
0%471 to the English counties—the rather that in the
!nsioap,'"land the decrease of electors had taken place
Aldled rhe
a,Popula.tion almost stationary, whereas in Eng-
oecresse had occurred among a population ra-
likieetiinereacing--(Hear, hear.) He believed that an
Nitiespitaraight he raised, and very properly raised.
teatesas`"e measure, that it did not go far enough. He
,a." it-I,l"nd very well hearing the Noble Lord say—
in
'ay ohi'r,a is nothing in my opinion I ever held, or
r'°'oll I
or NI W hold now, which would debar me from
it h
the ”" satisfaction any plan by which the admission
%ad thworking classes could be still further extendel,
tate b4sis widened upon which the representation
teeihtt-a aware that the objection to the smallness of his
St tile Was a great objection; but he begged to say
goped 'leisure was geed as far as it went; and e
Itreaticre Noble Lord would support it on the same
het haitabat had induced him to bring it forward ; vie,
to a loaf or a fragment of breed was better than
sellairle-a‘i at all'_—(Bear, bear.) He thought he had a
NI m:1? on the support of the Right Hon. Gentleman
oaa fasit be-r for Ripon, who observed, with great ability,
etteer occasion—
tie el ''we ass, considering the increase of the democra-
ete4-sent iu our institutions, that I see the greatest
reysef its erecting an immense superstructure on a net-
lik:l Aecteral basis. If that superstructure cannot stand
tow cesti,eztended electoral basis, I am sure that a 0ar-
....(t4711 cannot long sustain it."
roan ar, hear.) Now, he thought the Right Hon. Ba-
it; de would admit that the country had not decreased in
foewr„°cratic tendencies; and the figures he had brought
*Et, forward
"net have shown him that the electoral basis
,sttleter nelderably narrower.—(Hear, hear.) He thought,
Moogh be might with very great fairness claim the
tth",°°. Baronet's support.—(Hear, hear.) He owned,
its thltteiire after all that had recently occurred, not only
Which ,1210 use, but out of it, particularly at an election
Plitt 01°,41 lately occurred in not the least aristocratic
the att,44gland—(Hear, hear)—he might fairly claim
te, ePort of the Honourable Gentlemen who had
,reeent period supported protection, for he
it Would be found that those who had only wry
it tePtidiated the principle of protection would find
they ea",„`lingly difficult to re-obtain their seats unless
sutra -''Peci''d to constituencies with an extended
ssaett.'.---(Hear, hear.) Ile might say that he knew
testify leng of the farmers of this country, and could
Was ' tens
when they had once formed an opinion it
heetiTy
r, Moult to shake it. He knew that they had
they ; taught and tutored to cling to protection, that
11044 i?uld not be induced to give it up at a moment's
atteavtlany one; and, though Hon. Gentlemen might
teat, th Persuade them that it was not a question of
emeueY would continue to maintain that, if it was not
beer.l of Protection, it must be one of rent.—(Hear,
free ti He believed that, much as they were opposed to
Imaesrtad, they would infinite prefer an open and
!reach' foe to one that dealt up to the eleventh hour
114.131_ ,il.:lr:ouswkrei t Islvatshemma. He rejoiced greatly at the
akZitt..gatrisitire on behalfd)Member for
of his
Hon.
party.
•He rejoiced
*vino measure completed the triumph of the

Tien. Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden).
This was a cause in which he (Mr. King) took the
liveliest interest, for he might here state that his
father fought the battle of free trade single handed for
many a year before either the Hon. Member for the
West Riding, or the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton
(Mr. Villiers), or even the people of England, had had
their attention called to it.—(Hear.) He hoped that the
Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, with the enlarged
views which he had recently adopted, would attempt to
not coalesce with the electors who had been created
under the 501 Chandos clause to answer a political pur-
pose.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted the lion. Member
would go with them for an extended suffrage, and that
they would no longer hear anything about what he be-
lieved he might say had now been partially renounced—
he meant the re-establishment of the dangerous doctrines
of protection, for he h&c' protectio❑ to be very much
akin to Communism in its worst shape.—(Hear, hear.)
Protection he regarded as the few taking from the
many; and Communism, in its general acceptance, as ad
taking from all. An attempt had recently been made to
establish Communist principles on a largo scale ou the
continent by that celebrated man Louis Blanc; and what
had he done? He attempted on behalf of his party to
obtein a loan of money from tne Government. The
agriculturists had got their loan. M. Blanc had also

attempted to obtain-relicf for his party—the very thing
the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire was now at-
' tempting for his.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. King) hoped
that a measure liGe the present, which might be shown
to be one of sound policy and perfect justice, would not
be refused by that House. Ile trusted that the day
would not come when the people would find that it was
only particular classes who could obtain a hearing in that
House; when the law would cease to be a refute to the
oppressed, and become, instead, the arm of the cp.
pressor; and when it should be said, with truth, that that
House had at its disposal false instead of equal weights
and balances.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving in the terms of his notice.
Lord J. RUSSELL spoke as follows:—Tbo Hon.
Gentleman who has made this motion has done it, cer-
tainly, in a most effective manner, and has stated his
case as fairly, and laid it before the House with as little
exaggeration, either as to its merits or nature, as the
Hon. Member possibly could have done. I must like-
wise say, as he stated at the commencement of his
speech, that there can be no objection to the time of his
making the proposal, and that the reason, which he says
truly was a reason against the entertaining of his propo-
sal last year, is not a reason which I can urge on the
present occasion.—(Hear, hear.) I will make even a
further admission with respect to the nature of the mo-
tion itself. I think it differs from several other motions

which have been brought forward for the extension of

the suffrage, inasmuch as I do not think any reasonable
objection can be urged against the class of persons whom"
the Hon. Member proposes to include within the fran-
chise. I admit at once that they are . persons who, if
intrusted with the elective franchise, would probably use
it with intelligence and integrity—(Hear, hear)—and I
certainly cannot pretend that there is any such supe-
riority in the inhabitants of towns over those in coun-
try parts as to enable me or any ono to say
that the inhabitants of the towns who are invested with

this franchise are distinguished by any superior qualifi-
cation over those not having the franchise in other parts
of the country.—(Hear, hear.) But the question really
is whether this proposal would effect an improvement in
our representation; because I have always considered
that this was really the important question which the
House had to decide in respect to any proposition of this
kind. I never could think with the Hon. Member for
Montrose and others, that the chief point to be consi-
dered was, whether certain persons with certain quali-
fications should be entrusted with the franchise, and
whether it was not a hardship, or, to employ a much
stronger term, as the Hon. Member was accustomed to
do, whether it was not a species of tyranny, to exclude
them from the franchise. But I always considered,
seeing the immense power this House possesses, seeing
that this House represents the country at large, and that
succeeding periods have increased its means of control-

ing all (slier branches of the Legislature—l ia;e
always considered that what was really important to
this country was not so much that any particular
persons should be enabled to vote at elections, but
that the general result should be advantageous to the
country, and that this House should fully and fairly
represent the intelligence and will of the people.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, if we consider the present poposal in refer-
ence to what has hitherto been the case in this country
in regard to the franchise, it is obvious that the proposi-
tion is in manifest opposition thereto. Ther© has always
been, till a very late period, this distinction in principle
between the representation of counties and the represen •
tion of boroughs, though not certainly uniformly carried
out in every instance—the representation of counties
was a representation by tenure, the persons voting there
in consequence of their tenure, while the persons who
voted in the boroughs voted by virtue of occupation,
the one class being usually denominated freeholders,
and the other householders, in whom, in the
absence of any particular law to the con-
trary, it was decided by ancient authory that the right
of voting existed. In the course of the discussion on
the Reform Bill a proposal was made to make a very
great change with respect to the representation of coun-
ties, so far as to admit voters who did not hold by tenure,
being neither freeholders, nor having a tenure for
any number of years, but merely holding by occu-
pation. The Marquis of Chandos, who made that
proposal, succeeded in carrying it by the votes of
many of those who were Retormers, and who, on
that occasion, thought the Government which had pro-
posed the Reform Bill had been in error is not giving
the franchise to that class. Lord Althorp at the time
pointed out the objection to the proposal, but those ob-
j, ctions did not prevail with the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose and others, who thought it desirable to add this
class to the constituency, and a decision of the House
taking place in favour of Lord Chandos's proposition,
the Government in the next Reform Bill introduced a
clause in conformity with that decision; but I own I
m) self never considered that was any improvement of
our represeniatioi . I have always considered that, so
far as it dimini died the power of the 40s. freeholders, it
did, on the contrary, rather weaki.n and enfeeble than
strengthen the independence of our representation; and,
looking at this question not merely with regard to the
ancient policy ot the country and the ancient division of
counties and boroughs, but looking at it practically, I
must say my experience with respect to these electors
in counties has led me to observe that often a candidate
might ask a farmer paying a considerable rent for his
vote, and the farmer would say, " Whatever my
wishes may be, it is impossible for me to give you
my vote, considering the opinions and politics of
my landlord, and therefore I cannot enter into
the question whether I agree or disagree with your
views." Such an answer have I myself and others re,
ceived, while, en the other hand, upon canyassing some
of the smallest and poorest freeholders, I have seen a de-
termination and independence on their part to give their
votes according to their opinions, highly to their honour,
and showing thus that their pcsition was more indepen-
dent than that of the others. Well, the proposition of
the Hon. Gentleman is to admit a very large number of
voters by occupation, and thereby exceedingly to di-
minish the power of that other valuable cla,s to which I
have just alluded.—(lear, hear.) In looking over re•
turns relative to the various counties of England, I find
that the 501. ocupiers are at present in a minority, cer-
tainly, as compared with all the other electors who vote
in great part by freehold tenure, but all by a tenure for
some considerable period at least. In Berkshire the
numher of 50/. voters is 971, and ell the other voters
4,270. In Cheshire the number of 50/. voters is 4,022;
and the other voters 11,901. In Derbyshire the 50/
voters are 2,663, the others 10,208; and in Devon
4,920, the others 14,018. I do not know that I
need quote any more of these particular instances,
but in the whole of the English counties there are about
100.000 electors who voted by 50/. occupation, and
375,034 of all other kinds, the greater mass being 40s.
freeholders. Well, then, if in addition to these you ad-
mit is the position of voters 350,000 others, who would
have a right of voting as 101. householders, it is quite
obvious that you would so deluge the 40s. freeholders as
to diminish their importance in county elections.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, considering the value of these 40s,
freeholders—considering the antiquity of their privilege,
and the importance that they should still possess the
weight they have, I should be sorry to see a change made
diminishing their influence in counties—(Hear, hear)—
but beyond this I think that our object should not be to
introduce that uniformity which the Hon. Gentleman
rather recommends. His argument is nothing more than
this—you have a 101. franchise in the boroughs, therefore
have a 101. franchise in the counties. I have rather con-
sidered, the different times this subject has come before
me, that it is an advantage that there should be various
rights of voting, and that the same class of voters which
carried the elections in one place should not bo the
same which decided the choice of representatives in
the other.—(Hear, hear.) I therefore think it would
not be an improvement to introduce this uniformity.
The Honouraule Gentleman says, and it is an argu-
ment which has been used by many persons, but it is
not one founded on just observation ot things:—" You
have given the right of voting to occupiers or 121. value
in Ireland, and surely the occupiers in England of the
value of 121. are as well deserving of the franchise as
they are; and, at least, you ought to extend the fran-
chise in England so far." But the lion, Gentleman
does not remember that in Ireland we have completely
disfranchised that large class of voters, the 40s. free.
holders; and when I said, in supporting the Bill for the
extension of the franchise in Ireland, that I thought it
most desirable to place Ireland on a footing of equality
with England and Scotland in this respect, it was because
I took into consideration the extinction of the 40s.
es which the
free-
holds, therefore I thought it right to give that franchise
to persons in Ireland, no doubt well qualified to hold
it,
the abuses
4O w
s. hteienhurferalendchtiosenotrenewing
there,
would at the same time enable
themo olrish i r
otoesscoanistidheor
peoplethat they
ofE n esgelraen d treatedus with as
and
of Scot-
land. That result in a great degree has been attained.
From the number given as the number of voters in the
Irish counties, I should conjecture that they bore
about the same proportion o: the populatico, or some-
thing resembling it, as the number of voters in
the English counties. But if you were to say, because
we have done this we must introduce a eimiler franchise
into England, then you propose a new inequality—bes
cause then you would have the 403. freeholders and
voters of other teaures together with a 101. occupation
franchise—because there are in the Irish counties 12/.
voters, and no 40s. freeholders. I cannot think, there-
fore, that the proposed measure would tend to improve
our representation. I would rather continue the variety
now existing, and keep up the ancient distinction be-
tween the voting from freehold and other tenures in
counties, and the household occupation in boroughs.
The lion. Gentleman has said that I cannot say the pre-
sent is a revolutionary project, or one tending to any
great democratic change. Undoubtedly I make no
obarr a tint kiwi Nowt him; mud, thclllgil I Oink