The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 30.

The SPEAKER resumed his seat shortly after five o'clock
Mr. O'CONNELL brought up the report of th.
Committee on the Dublin and Kingston Ship Canal
The Hon. and Learned Member then alluded to the
recent "mistake" at the Middlesex sessions, by which a
number of indictments had been improperly found, and
many persons tried and convicted, and said he under-
stood that many persons so sentenced had been already
put on board ship to be sent abroad, pursuant to their
sentences; be wished to know what steps bad been taken
by the Government respecting those prisoners.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the Chairman of
the Middlesex Sessions bad conferred with him upon the
subject. He could state with confidence that no prisoner,
tried and convicted upon indictments found after the Ist
of July, would have the sentence carried into effect.
Mr. ROTCH, as Chairman of the Middlesex Sessions,
said he bad waited for an opportunity to explain.
The Hon: and Learned Member was interrupted by the
SPEAKER, who said there was no motion before the

House.
S.r J. SCARLETT presented a petition from Thomas
Alexander Raynsford, Esq., the ➢Master of the Report-
office, against the Register of Chancery Bill (as we

understood).
Mr. P. TIIOMSON moved that there be laid before
the House a copy of the report of experiments made by
Dr. Alexander Ure in the refining of sugar. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then brought up the Report of the
Committee on the Sugar Refining Bill, which was ordered

to be print'.d.
Mr. ROBINSON postponed until next session his mo
tion respecting the Standing Order of this House for the
exclusion of strangers from the gallery.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.
Mr. ROEBUCK rose to bring forward the motion of
which be had given notice, that the House should, with
the least possible delay, consider the means of
establishing a system of National Ecucation.
Lord ALTHORP wished to know whether the Hon.
Member had any objection to postpone his motion.
Mr. ROEBUCK was very desirous of moving, but if it
were the feeling of the House that he should not, and if
Hon. Gentlemen who had motions that stood after him
would consent to postpone their motions so as to give him
the opportunity of getting his motion on before the
others that now stood after him, he would not intrude on
the House at present.
After a little conversation, in which several Members
were understood to decline to withdraw their motions from
the position in which they now stood,
Mr. ROEBUCK considered that he had no alternative
but to proceed. He said that nothing could be of greater
importance than the question he had to submit for dis-
cussion, and he held it to be indispensably necessary that
upon this inquiry the House should enlist the feelings
of the public, consequently this ought not in any way to
be made a party question. It was entirely outri to ob-
serve that the system of national education be now pro-
posed to have adopted was impracticable—it was not a
jarring abstract, but one which, if entered into as its
merits required, would lead to the best practicable results.
He wished to state what he meant by education ; it was not
mere reading, writing, and arithmetic, but the fashioning
and training up of the moral and intellectual powers, so as
to fit the individuals for the ordinary duties of life—a
fashioning of the mind, to enable them to resist tempta-
tion, and work out their own happiness, and secure that
of the public. This he considered good education,
and what was to be effected by Legislative enactment.
Some misery, no doubt, was inflicted upon a people by the
misconduct of their Government, but a more important
part of their misery arose from their own ignorance
and improvidence. If to-morrow a Government, per-
fectly wise and virtuous, were established, the people must
still suffer the effects of their own ignorance. If they
had had a well educated people, they should not now have
been overburdened with population—should not have bad
a sturdy pauper population—should not have had middle
classes each running after its own property—nor a landed
class seeking to maintain a corn monopoly at the expense
of all the rest. It had been urged that education
would make the people too proud to work, but th it was
a false position. The present Archbishop of Dublin had
well observed that education, by being universal, would
deprive it of that distinction which made men educated
above their fellows too proud to work with them.—
(Hear.) Before many years elapsed, the people would
no doubt be in possession of chief, if not of
paramount power in the state, and it would be wise in
them, therefore, so to educate the people that they should
exercise this power wisely. Besides, no system of law
could be complete unless the people were properly edu.
cated. The Hon. Gentleman then quoted the authority
of Mr. Livingstone, to show that crime decreased with
the spread of education. He would make an appeal to
authority on this subject. In enlightened France a
law had been passed establishing for all classes of the
people a general system of education ; and in Prussia,
under the superintendence of the illustrious Duke of
Saze Weimar a complete system of popular education
was also to be found in operation. If they went from
despotism and the mixed monarchies to the democratical
states of America, however separated the inhabitants
might be, there was also a complete system of education ;
and in the single state of New York, consisting of two
millions of inhabitants, 500,000 children had been edu.
cated during the last year. If authority was to go for
nothing, what would reason say ? It was the duty of
Government to prevent crime, and education would be
one of the most efficient means of its prevention.—(Hear.)
Many Hon. Members, and among tbem some of the most
liberal, felt a dread, which he did not, at undertaking
the subject. He believed that no injury could arise from
a well regulated plan of national education.—(Loud
cheers.) It was an important subject which ought
not to be shuffled off;—it was of vital importance to
every class of the community, and if that House pre-
tended to value the well-being of society, it would
not shrink from the undertaking. He would endeavour
to lay before the House a rough sketch of the plan be
proposed for adoption. He should first mention the ma-
chinery of the method, and then the authority which
would be necessary to carry that machinery into ef-
fect.—(Hear, hear, bear.) He would at once avow,
that be thought compulsory education absolutely neces-
sary; and he would make it an offence punish•
able by law, to permit a child to remain without
the benefit of education between years, and
years—the periods to be hereafter defined. if the parents
or guardia:.s of children could show their inability
to provide the requisite instruction, he would have the
stare step in and provide the means. This was
by no means a novel idea ; 'out it was not
sufficiently known. He would call the attention of the
House to the conduct pursued on this subject by the
Government of France. That Government had sent
one of its most eminent men—one of its greatest
philosophers—to Prussia, where education was en-
forced, to make himself acquainted with the details.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) This was conduct worthy of the
imitation of the British Government. (Hear, hear.)
By Article 43 of the law of 1819 every inhabitant was
obliged, if he could not educate his children himself, to
send them to the National School at the age of five
years; and the 44th article imposed the punishment on any
parent who infringed that law. It might be objected
that his plan would interfere with the power of a parent.
But it should be recollected that that power was not
confided to the parent for his own pleasure, but it
imposed on the parent certain obligations to the State.
The State was much interested in the education of its
inhabitants, who owed certain duties to it. Another
objection might he urged that a Government not libe-
rally inclined might make such regulations as would have
the effect of bringing up children like slaves, and of in-
!tiding into their minds bad principles. He thought it
impossible that people sbotrd receive bad principles
by an education; and although they might learn evil
by chance, yet education, under any circumstances,
would certainly improve the condition of the population.
A parent was bound by every tie to educate his
children, and therefore where would the harm he in
compelling a negligent parent to perform his duty ?
It mieht be said that by such a plan children would be
taught adverse religious opinions. He denied that such
would be the result. In Prussia there were several great sects
of religionists, but under the liberal institutions issued by
M. Cousin, all difficulty on that score had been overcome.
He would here read a passage from the law of Russia on
this head, which conveyed a useful lesson to all people :
" Difference of religion in Christian schools necessarily
produces differences in religions instruction. This instruc-
tion will always accord with the spirit and dogmas of

the worship to which the school belongs. But as in
every school of a Christian States the spirit which is
dominant and common to all confessions ought to be piety
. .

and a profound respect for the Divinity, every school may
receive children of another Christian worship. The mas•
ters and the superintendents ought to avoid most carefully
every species of constraint, and every thing that would
give pain to the children on the subject of their peculiar
worship. No school ought to abuse its opportunities in order
to promote any view of proselytism ; and the children
of any sea or worship, differing from that of the school,
ought not either against their own wishes or those of their
psrents be compelled to attend either the religious teaching
or exercises. Peculiar masters of their own sect shall be

charged with their religious education; and, wherever it
is impossible to have as many masters as differing sects,
there the parents ought, with all possible care, to fulfil
those duties themselves, if they desire that their children
should not fullow, in these particulars, the lessons of the
school." Any people or Govern ment pretending to the
character of being civilized would strictly adhere to these
admirable iesti notions. It might be said that, however

necessary might be this cotrpulsory attendance, yet the
i tea to the people of England was too novel to be imme-
diately acted on. He willingly admitted that objection to
have great weight ; but, on the other hand, he would ask,
how long would the prejudice against it live in the minds
of the people if their representatives, in the solemn exer-
cise of their high functions, were deliberately to declire
its necessity? Not a day, not an hour. What the quan-
tum of instruction should be in the various cases would

have to be determined by the supervising authori-
ties. He need here only remark that in infancy all
children required the same treatment. All that we could
do in that tender age was to provide for the due develop-
ment of the body, prepare the mind for culture, and lay
the foundation of habits of application and self-govern-

went and kindly sympathies.• As far as regarded the
moral training, this age was all•important ; as regarded
the mental, comparatively less so. After the age of infancy
was past, and it became necessary to convey instruction
consonant to the condition of the receiver, then they must
take into consideration the necessities which that condition
involved. The next point regarding the subject matter
of instruction to which he would advert was the
variety of insttuction. All that he had hitherto spoken
of might be called " Primary Instruction," and should
be alike in all. The first distinction that sug-

gested itself was that of sex. Men and women had very
different offices to perform in life, and therefore required
very different sorts of knowledge. As a striking proof of
the necessity of instruction on the part of the women of
the poorer classes, he quoted the evidence of Mr. Rowland
Detrosier to the Factory Commissioners, and the conduct
of the Grand Duchess of Saxe Weimar. As respected the

boys, they should be taught their various trades ; and,
from experiments made in America, they saw that their
labour might contribute materially to their own mainte-
nance, and the furtherance of their own education. These
schools of industry might be made a blessing to the nation
at large. He held it indispensable, both as regarded the
well-being of the State and of the individual himself, that
every man should receive a good political education. He
then passed to the second portion of the plan, which
he called the machinery by which the instruction was
to be imparted. This machinery was of a threefold
nature: Ist, schools; 2d, masters; 31, money.—
The schools which he contemplated were of
.three se-
. .

parate classes : —first, Infant Schools; second, gebools
of Industry; and third, Normal School., or schools fo:
the instruction of masters separately for boys and girls.
There ought to be in every parish in the kingdom
at least one infant school and one school of industry. As
the law would be imperative in demanding the presence
of the children, justice would demand that the schools,
should be placed within their reach. In all cases where
the size of the parish demanded a greater number of schools,
more than one would be erected. Many expedients he had
heard mentioned by which the richer classes might be
brought into intimate and affectionate union with the
power. In every part of England, London perhaps only
excepted, this might effectually be done, by sending the
children of both classes to the same school ; for example,
to an infant school. In Massachusetts the national school-
were so admirably conducted that the children of all
classes received their instruction from them. The schools
of industry would have two objects in view—the im.
parting of what might be termed scholarship, and the
knots ledge of some trade. That, with the careful watch-
ing of their moral character, and the communication of a
general knowledge of our Government and other institu-
tions with such portions of political economy as regarded
their condition, would be the object of the schools of
industry. The ages to which they should be limited would
be from seven to fourteen. In the towns, however,
another class of schools might be established to
contribute to the instruction of persons above fourteen,
who might have leisure from their employment either
during the evening, Sundays, or holydays. Such schools
would be of immense service, preventing idle habits and
low and debauching pleasures from arising among the
youth in the towns. Of the Normal schools he would
speak in canjunction with the next subject, viz., masters.
The great object of these schools would be to create mas-
ters for the national schools. The course of instruction
by these Normal schools he need not touch upon, as it
would necessarily require great consideration, and would
not be determined upon without the most grave and deli-
berate inquiry. He came then to speak of the money ;
all persons capable of paying ought to pay. If those
payments should not prove sufficient, a general tax must
be laid on the people, if, indeed, the private contributions,
and the existing funds dedicated to instruction, were not
sufficient. Did any one believe that maintaining the
Milbank prison was a cheaper process than a school of
one hundred children? If, however, it should be sup-
posed that, in spite of the improvement of the people, there
would yet be an increase of expenditure, he would suggest
the expediency of saving the surplus out of any service
rather than from th it of public instruction. He had now
arrived at the last subject on which he should touch ; which
subject as ill-fdrtune had determined, was the most delicate
point of all, that on which differences of opinion were most
likely to arise, and heats and animosities to take place—he
meant the subject of the governing authority, by which
the whole system of national education should be regu-
lated. In this, as in the other matters, he wished to he
perfectly explicit. The machinery of Government shouts
be simple; first, the people acting as electors, he should
wish the head of every family should possess a voice; but
if this should be considered too democratic, why, then,
every person who contributed towards the funds by which
the schools would be maintained should be endowed with
this privilege. The whole country should then be di-
vided into school districts, in each of which there should
at least be one school. In the government of the school
or schools of each school district, the people, having
the privilege of voting, should elect every year four
persons, who would be called the School Committee, and
it should be their business to select and dismiss the
master, to supervise the school, and, in the last resort, to
determine on the instruction that should be then afforded.
Besides these Committees in every school district, he
would have one other officer, and he should be among
the highest in the State, indeed a member of the Cabinet;
and whatever might be his name, he, in fact, would have
to fulfil the functions of the Minister of Public In
struction. The business of his office would be a genera
supervision of all the national schools in the kingdotn.
He would have to determine, on the application of the
school committees, what extra schools should be built.
He would apportion the sum of money to be given to
each district. Besides this, the Normal schools would be
wholly under his control, and he would have to select for
himself, and on his own responsibility, the master and
governors of each. In addition to these duties, in his
character of supervisor of schools, it would be his duty to
make suggestions as to improved modes of teaching, and
as to subjects that might be taught. It would be a very
important part of his duty to o mill over the composition
of books of instruction. Further into the details he need
not e nter. All these matters must necessarily be made the
su
or
,aljrrsoe utcogpt
rt
boeejf
the
h,dveoleperl
whole
esopdfaaotol c
rriniii
this very
avoreuefryl
dd
ri preside,
interests.
a un iT o
diiuui,
unswayed
sawnivi
leaaudrys
ndnwoghbwyic h, it
pas-
sion,
gone
detail,nt
and had perfoi used, to the hest of his ability, the onerous
task he had proposed to himself. He concluded by
proposing a resolution to the effect he had stated at the
outset of his speech.
Mr. GROTE had great pleasure in seconding the mo-
tion of his Hon. Friend, after whose very able speech it
was unnecessary to trouble the House with many observa-
tions. He seconded the motion in the belief that two
things were perfectly true. The first was, that the pre-
sent system of education was defective—the other, that the
defects of the system would not be remedied till the Go-

knew that it was not a familiar idea to the people of this
country, or to the Members of that House, that the Go-
vernment should interfere with the education of the peopl, ;

attention was bestowed on that work, they w,-,ll'ri

see, that without any interference with the comfort or
the happiness of the people, they might produce a more
important effect on their education than was now done
even in a country where wages were lower than in thiQ,
and where the lower orders of the community suffered more
from the higher orders than they did here. If Hon.
Gentlemen would read that book, they would be con-
vinced that it was most important that the clergy should
join with earnestness in promoting the success of the
scheme. Far from introducing disputes and heartburninge,
it would be the means of establishing cordiality among all
classes of the people. The object of the plan was to
secure to every child in every parish the means of educa-
tion ; and the effect of the scheme, if carried into effect,
would he to increase the confidence of the people in the
clergy who most zealously promoted the universal diffu-
sion of the ble-sings of education.

•On the question being put,
Lord ALTHORP felt quite sure there was not an
individJal in that House who did not agree with the
Hun. Member for Bath in thinking the subject he had
brought under the consideration of the House one of as

great importance as it was possible to enter on—(Hear,
hear)—and who did not feel a most anxious desire that

:he education of all classes in the country should he at-
taintd, and that the limits within which the exis,ing
. _ _

tern was confined should extend to their utmost possible
bounds. The question upon which the public and the

House was called to decide was, what might be the best

means to be pursued for attaining that object. The Hon.
Member did not think a knowledge of reading, writing,
and the elements of arithmetic constituted that degree 'of

education which the poorer classes ought to be provided
with. On that point he (Lord Althorp) was very much
inclined to agree with hilt-I.—(Hear, hear.) To give all
classes of the community such a degree of knowledge
was undoubtedly to give them the means of edu6a-
Lion, but no more; and be for one was quite ready to
concur with the lion. Member in any proposition likely
to make those means much more available than they at

present were.—(Hear, hear.) The great difficulty to be
met in attempting to enforce by means of Government a

national system of education arose from the almost impos-
siblity of ascertaining the number of schools which such
an undertaking would require. In Scotland there was a
national system of education, and there one school in each
parish was found quite sufficient for its purposes ; but to
say that in each parish of England, considering the po-
pulation of some of the larger towns, one school would he
sufficient every one must at once admit was ridiculous.
He thought the House, under all circumstances, was
bound to consider whether it could not increase the facility
for the education of the people without any immediate or
direct interference on the part of the Gave' nment.—
(Hear, hear.) When a Noble Friend of his (Lord
Brougham) first alluded in that House to the subject of
national education, he slightly expressed his doubts as to
whether it was desirable that, Government should inter-
fere at all in the tnatttr, inasmuch as experience proved
such interference had generally ended in the loss of the
valuable assistance derived from private sources.—(Hear,
hear.) Now he (Lord Althorp) thought that argument
well worthy of consideration. Since the period his Noble
Friend called the attention of Parliament to the subject,
a vast number of schools had been erected and main-
tained at the cost of private individuals, but he thought
there was every reason to fear that if any complete system
of education was adopted by the State a stop would be
put to the voluntary exertions and contributions of those
individuals.—(Hear, bear.) Experience proved that
in the case of charitable institutions such was ever the
case, individual charity generally ceasing, but always
diminishing from the moment Government intimated an
intention of contributing to their funds. Much had been
said in the course of the Hon. Member's speech in advo-
cacy of the system adopted in Prussia. In some parti-
culars that system might be adopted in England ; but he
put it to the House whether the adoption of that part of
the system which made it penal for a parent not to make
provision for the education of his children would not be
carrying the subject much further than the generality of
its present advocates thought expedient or wise.—(Hear.)
The Legislature was in duty bound to provide a gratuitous
education for the children of those who were unable to
afford it from their own resources, but in a zeal for the
diffusion of learning to say that a man whose children did
not seem properly educated should be liable to punishment
would unquestionably be going to a length to which he
could not for one assent. With regard to the motion itse f
it was one which, on abstract principles, few could oppose;
but he did not, he confessed, see the utility at the close of
a session for any resolution regarding it. It was had
policy, he thought, to pledge the House to any particular
course to ) adopted in an ensuing session ; and, as the
details of the plan to which the resolution alluded were not
before him, he did not think he should be justified in giving
the motion his assent. The Noble Loudconcluded by
expressing his desire that the Hon. Gentleman %could
withdraw his motion, and thus forbear calling on Par-
liament to pledge itself to a resolution which, although
there be no objection to it, might, when the proposition
for the consideration of the plan came, tend much to
embarrass them.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL also expressed a wish that the Hon.
Member would withdraw his motion, and leave the
House unshackled by any pledge to the consideration of
the general question during the next session. He could
not agree in the eulogistic encomiums p rased by the Hon.
Member on either the Prussian or the French systems of
national education, being convinced that the compulsory
principles of the former could not be reduced to practice
in England, whilst the obvious tendency of the latter was
to assist the machinations of the liberal party in that
country to unchristianize France.—(Laughter.)
Sir EL INGLIS said no man could for a moment deny
the abstract principle that Government, acting the part
of a parent, should provide an education for those unable
to pay for it ; but he very much apprehended, notwith-
standing the length of time the subject had been under
consideration, the country was yet far removed from that
object. He had stated that the two Universities of Ox-
ford and Cambridge had received public money. He
defied the Hon. Member to produce one single instance of
either University having received any sum that could pro-
perly he called public money.
Mr. HUME bad had within the last 48 hours an in-
terview with a person who had been deputed from France
to England in order to inquire into the state of education
in this country, and from all he had learned, as well as all i
he had previously known, he could not but pronounce it
exceedingly unfair in the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin to make the observations be had made. If the
example of France were bad, which he denied, there was
no necessity for England to follow it. Let England look
to the United States, where in every village a school
existed, and without any attempts at proselytism, and yet
.vithout any disregard to religion whatever. He should
be sorry if the Hon. Member withdrew his motion.
Sir R. PEEL said it hail already been observed there
bad been more abstract resolutions brought forward in the
present session than any former session of Parliament. In
+tie opinion the present resolution went to pledge
.the
House to directly the reverse of what it ought to do. First,
the House was bound to consider the practical difficulties
that attended the question of providing public instruction
for the people. The resolution set forth that the Rouse
was deeply impressed with the necessity of providing edu-
cation for the people at large. He would admit the great
advantage of extending public education, but he would not
acknowledge that the state of public education was so de-
fective as the resolution would lead people to imply. Every
person of weight, influence, and property in the country
exerted himself within his own sphere and neighbourhood
o extend the advantages of education ; and he was con-
vinced that they all did it more effectually than they
could do were they to be coerced to it by Parliament..
With respect to the next branch of the resolution, a
ll
ught to be brought in to show to what extent the assis-
anee. of society was necessary, or certainly. this point
,aeolution then went to state a promise that the H use
could, early next Scesion, proceed to devise the means.
.
ught not to be involved merely in a few lines. The
What ! the means of a national education for a whoia,
pople ? If they were going to educate the peoplee:utcei.w
ies it
ainly it was necessary to determine what
Scot"-
perevenentthel people of
would be absolutely necessary to
e inform the
education,
or what was to be 'ilea!"
lint
di n
andal education,
Ireland. withln
order reference
to
o both to Byjneae sal al
olunud:
involve itself in engagements which
(-louse ought not to
)uld
never he fulfilled.—(Hear,
t might be
sure
eMee(mber for Bath had mentioned the
distinction.by whatever. The
of usyla, tint really a country with free institu-
-o,erart.h; resolution made made no
:ions bad some advantages, and a despotic coun.ry