The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-14 00:00:00

(Loud cheers.) That he considered to be a most satis-
factory proof of the general result of their policy.--
(Hear, hear.) Besides this, the same return stated that
during the past year the number of British ships entering
the port of New York with full cargoes, including rhos
just mentioned, was 691 ships, with a tonnage of 25'2,000
tons. One more instance of the satisfactory working of this
measure. After the settlement of California was founded
by the United States, there was a great demand for articles
of British manufacture by the settlers, and, consequently,
a great many British ships visited the settlement. For
some time the Americans did not bring their navigation -lawe
into operation as regarded that settlement, but allowed ships
of all nations to trade with it. After a time, however, in-
structions came from Washington to put the American navi-
gation-laws into operation, and the greatest confusion was
the result, every British ship, except from a port of the
United Kingdom, and all French ships, being prevented from
entering. In the course of a few days another order
came from Washington, to the effect that as the British
Government had altered their navigation-laws, that the
restriction should be abandoned, so far as regarded all
British vessels, and the trade of the settlement open
to them. Those ships were accordingly admitted while
the French vessels were kept out, and he mentioned
the circumstance merely to show the advantages
which were flowing, and would continue to flew from
the releasing their shipping fr m the trammels of those laws
which hail s long curtailed their enterprise. There was ens
other branch of the subject which lie could not help making
a short allusion to. It was often said when they were ad-
vocating the repeal of those laws, that were they to do s •, ,
the ship-building interest r. °aid be ruined ; but he affirmed,
without fear of contradiction, that so far from that being
the case, there never was a time when their princ pal
building yards were better employed, and when there was a
greater number of good ships building. (Hear, hear.) The
result of the change had bees that encouragement had been
given for the building of het er shil s than heretofore; and
it was the fact, that vessels were now building in this coun-
try, which in every particular would compete with the best
ships in the world.—( Loud cheers.) That was the most dis-
tinct and satisfactory proof of the success of the commer-
cial navy, because no one could suppose that these ships
would be built unless there was a clear prospect of having
them well employed.—(Hear, hear.) He did not hesitate to
admit that there might be a class of ships not so well
employed as before—he meant the small class of coasting-
vessels—but that was a necessary consequence of the change ;
bat certainly they were not called upon to refrain from
taking this step in advance because those inferior class of
vessels might for a time suffer from it. He had got a return
of the number of vessels built in England during the last
year, and comparing it with the number built during the
three previous years, the result was most satisfactory. In
1847, the number of vessels built in England was 922, the
tonnage being 145,000. The number built in 1818 was 847,
of 122,000 tons. In 1849, 730 were built, of 120,017 tonnage.
While in 1850, only 689 were built, but the tonnage had in-
creased to 133,000 tons. Now by that return it would be
seen, that while last year the number of ships built had
decreased as compared with former years, the amount of
tonnage had considerably increased, and showed clearly
that the class of vessels built were of a far superior de-
scription to those built in previous years. The House would
no doubt recollect that Mr. Wigram, a partner of a well-
known and extensive ship-building firm in this country,
while giving his evidence before a Committee of the House of
Lords, stated that, so convinced was .he that were the laws
repealed ruin would overtake the ship-building interest,
and that they could not build ships in competition with the
Americans, he would establish a branch of his business at
New York, and place his son in charge of it, in order to
enable him to, in some degree, alleviate the evils which
would be inflicted upon him. In the course of his inquiries
into this matter he had, however, received a• return from
Southampton, and it was there stated that the number of
ships building there was larger than usual ; that they were
ships of a more extensive build; and that much of this ac-
tivity was caused by the enterprise of Messrs. Wigram and
Co., who had a steamer in the course of building of 2,250
tons burden, and two sailing vessels, the one of 500 tons re-
gister and the other of 450.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
That, therefore, showed that the evils so much dreaded by
one of the members of that firm had not visited it. So much
then he had thought it necessary to say as regarded the na-
vigation-laws. He would not further enter upon the general
question, but would rest the case entirely upon the able
statements of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Ripon and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, considering, as
he did, that the arguments adduced by them were a full and
ample reply to the motion.—(Cheers. )
Mr. CAYLEY could not see what the question of the na-
vigation-laws had to do with the matter before the House.
The question they had to consider was not the navigation-
laws, but the burdens on land.—(Hear, hear.) What was
the thing desired? Why, what the Hon. Member for Buck-
inghamshire desired, and what he seconded him in desiring,
was justice.—(Hear, hear.) Was it their fault that justice
and protection were convertible terms ?_(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet had alluded to France, as showing that
when there was a system of protection, the land was going
out of cultivation, and agriculture was in a deplorable state,
but notwithstanding all the revolutions they had had in
France of late, and the great evils which they had
given rise to, yet the bullion in the Bank of France was
at present twenty millions, while in the Bank of England
the bullion was but fourteen millions, and at the same
time was on the decrease. Besides the revenue of France
had within the last three years considerably increased,
while if they took the real revenue of teis country, arising
from ordinary sources, there had in the course of that period
been a considerable decrease. It was said that since 1847, when
so much disaster was abroad, there had been an increase;
but he denied that the revenue since that time had risen
quicker, or even so quick, as it had risen-upon any occasion
of a similar nature since 1820. After the colapse in 1821
there was an increase in the revenue, and notwithstanding
that, from that to 1825 upwards of 4,000,0001. taxes bad
been repealed, the revenue had increased to the amount of
9,988,0001. Again, from 1834 to 1836 upwards of 3,000,000/.
taxes bad been repealed, and yet the revenue had increased
by 7,247,0001. Then again during 1844, 184'm, and 1846,
four millions of taxes had been repealed, and yet there was
an increase in the revenue of upwards of five millions.
That, however, was not the case now, for, in geality, their
income did not meet their expenditure. Then as to the
poor-law, it was said the poor-rate had been diminished
within the last three years; but the fact was, that while
during the years 1844, 1845, and 1846, the average of the
poor-rate was 4.989,0001., during the last three years it was
5,750,0001. So that there was a considerable increase in time
poor-rate of the country. He supposed the Right lion.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would ad-
mit that the price of the raw material had something to
do with the value of the manufactured article? Let
them look at the article of cotton, one-fourth of which
was said to be kept at home for consumption. The
price of the raw material was in 1845 but 4d. a lb.;
last year it was Bd. This gave a difference on the
65,004,0001. of exports of 11, 00,0001. Then, if three-
fourths of the cotton were sent abroad, must not the
8,000,000/. or 9,000,0001. of the increased price be deducted
from the exports, so there would be only 56,000,0)0/. of
exports instead of 65,000,0001. At all periods of recovery
from collapses, which were the effect of bad legislation, and
which might be avoided were it not for their judicial blind-
ness—(Hear, hear)—the same thing had happened—the
same increase in exports had taken place. There was groat
distress in 1821, was great prosperity in 1824, and the in-
crease in the exports that year over the previous years he had
mentioned was 1,777,0001. There was distress in 1834; 1836
was a prosperous year, and there was a difference in the
exports of 4,150,000/. Again, in the year 1842, the exports
were then 47,000,0001., and in 1845 they were 60,000,000/.
Then what became of the boast of free-traders if their poor.
rate had increased, if their revenue had fallen off, and
their exports diminished ? Let them depend upon it a
monetary pressure was at hand, and if he could place
confidence on some mercantile authorities it was even
now looming in the distance. If that monetary
pressure came, and their exports were checked, then they
would have to complain more bitterly than ever of the want
of protection. It was not denied that the agricultural
interest was in distress. Who had got the money but the
foreigner? His objection to the present system of legisla-
tion was that they did not allow the farmer to recover the
taxes he advanced to the revenue.--(Hear, hear.) The
grocer advanced the duties on sugar, but he was repaid
by the sale of the article. And now let them look to the
way in which booksellers were treated. It was impossible
to over-estimate the advantages of knowledge, but sup-
pose, after taxing the bookseller for his paper they would
admit foreign books duty free, would that not be deemed
an injustice to the booksellers? They dare not do this.
They allowed a return to the booksellers as well as to
the grocers for the taxes they advanced, but they did not
thus treat the owners and occupiers of lan I. —(Hear,
hear.) For the last 30 years they had been legislating
to bring the prices within the gripe of taxation. Conceiv-
ing that their system of legislation was fatal to the best
interests of the country, because they were draining the
resources of the farmer, on which the prosperity' of the
labourer materially depended, be should support the motion
of the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Buckingham-
shire.—( Hear, hear.)

,
Mr. CARDWELL.thought the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down had most ably come to the support of an army
labouring under all the pressure of a change of frontage.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The question of free trade had
been consigned by the Hon. Gentleman, who had in a most
workmanlike speech introduced this motion, to convenient
oblivion, but the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cayley) had broken
with a masterly force the opposite lines. In the Hon. Gen-
tleman's speech every sentence was an attack on that legis-
lation by which the pressure of extraordinary, high prices had
been mitigated, and by which the peace, loyalty, and safety
of the country had been secured in times of no ordinary diffi-
culty.—(Hear.) He was not supriselitthear the Hon. Gen-
tleman say that "figures were troops strAtrangely marshalled
he almost began to doubt themi'altogether " for never
was he so surprised as in listenin,k to the Hon.i Gentle-
man's own array of figures, adduokd to prove that under
years of protection the revenue,?had increased, that the
exports had increased, and the profits and advantages of the
working classes had been multiplied. He could, however,
find no instance in which, under the banner of protection,
seven millions and a half of taxation had been taken, and
the Government left the revenue larger than they had found
it.— (Cheers.) In 1841 the revenue was 48.000,0001. At
the end of 1844 the Government had taken off 2,000,0001. of
taxes, and having on coming into office found deficiency,
had on the sth of April a l'arge balance in the Exchequer.
The effect of their legislation was, that they had reduced
taxation by 7,500,0001., wbile the ordinary revenue of the
last financial year exceeded the revenue for which the Go-
vernment were bound to provide, of any year preceding
their taking office. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cayley) was
living in Arcadian retirement, where the removal of the
duties on brick and sugar never entered his mind, and yet
he expected to find the revenue larger than ever.—(Hear.)
The Honourable Gentleman had said, that in the days of
protection he. had got some record of an increase of
11,000,0001. on exports. There was one such case, and he
would now refer to it. Before free-trade measures came
into operation, the greatest exports in any year was in 1841,
when they were 53,000,000/. During the Year which had
just expired, they had increased to 70,006,000/. Now let
him ask the flon. Gentleman, who had the profit on the
goods so manufactured and exported? Lot him ask him,
how many houses had been gladdened? Let them look at
the imports of articles of consumption among the ww king-
classes, comparing the years 1811 and 1850. In 1841, there
were imported 4,000,000 cwts. of sugar; in 1850, there were
6,00000; of cocoa in 1841, there were imported 1,930,000
cwt. ; in 1850 they had increased to 3,220,000. He would
omit coffee, forgivery one knew the imports of this4airt,rycplse
had greatly increased. The brandy imported in 18_
1,165,000 gallons, in 1850 it had increased to
82,01
it 7 oviTs
The tea imported in 1841 was 36,681,00011 x%, inolbatco,of
50,000,0001b5. The next article
which there was imported in 181.1",
e2,,f)S,ooCit
and in 1850, 27,685,0001b5.—(Hear,
the pockets
had the profits on these articles g
of the foreigner? If it were
exports went into the pockets. ofon ttebnedoeforeigner,
h ite profits
must on
.rtsprowveendtthianttothoeur o•admitted that the
pockets. The export of r
profits
70o0n00i0n0171
do so, and if nature compelled them to sell
manu-
facturer must sell his goods at foreign prices Itwas com-
pulsory on him to
cheap, he.would ask Ho n.Gentlemen who desired protection,
at what prices they
wished to buy?—(Hear, hear.) Ile
would amk tbmn were they puck enthukiae4s,th at when com-
pelled to sell cheaply, they would couteud for the privilege

of buying dearly?—(Hear, hear.) How conld it be
said that a foreign trade was carried en, and that the home
trade was not commensurate with it. He would now refer
to some documents relative to the import of cotton
from the United States, in support of the propo
sition for which he contended, viz., that they had laid the
foundation for an entire revolution in, and reformation
of, the social and economical system of the country, that they
had strengthened the foundation of their own manufactures,
and that they were in a situation to make encroachments on
the manufactures of foreign countries. The first document
was a trade circular which he had received from the north,
and which stated that the imports of cotton from the United
States were greater than there was any reason to expect,
owing to the diminished consumption there, and the dispro-
portionate shipment to France and the continent of Europe.
The prospects of the manufacture were of a satisfactory cha-i
racter, there being nothing to check it unless it was an insuf-'
ticient supply of the raw material. Means were within the'
reach of all, and they might look for a steady and improving
home trade. That was what the first circular told them.
The second was from a gentleman whose authority they
would recognise immediately-31r. Littledale, of Liverpool.
—(llee-, hear.) He said that there had lately been a se.
markable revolution
in heavy goods and low yarns, both
for home u e and export, the present stocks of which were
inadequate to supply the demand. On the whole, perhap,,
there was never a greater feeling Gf security. Another year
of prosy, its- had clowd, abd the formidable losses of 184
and Is-18 might he considered as fairly cancelled by the gains
of 1849 and 1850, ( Hear, hear.) 1\ ow, after reading those
extracts, might they not say that the manufacturing classes
had gone through as severe trials, or perhaps even severer
ones, than their agricultural 1 rethren ? (Hear, hear.) If,
by virtue of their own strength and energy, and not by the
aid of Parliament, they had been carried through their own
crisis, might they not hope that the same happy issue was
awaiting the agricultural interest. (Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") Our Exchequer was prosperous now, and
its prosperity, notwithstanding the remission of duties,
was one of the most extraordinary circumstances of the
time. They were once told that when the railways were
finished, the labourers would be thrown upon the rates who
had worked upon them. Well, the railways were finished,
and what had become of the thousands of labourers they
had employed? Would any one tell him? There was no
especial reference to them in official documents. He re-
ferred to the Poor-law Board for information, but it
seemed that that was not a matter falling within their
province. They themselves had given the answer when
they said that these men had been employed by the deter-
mination of the landed interest to keep them and the land.
A stranger passing through the country would form no
despairing idea of the prosperity of the landowners—for,
he would ask, were there ever seen so many draining tiles,
so many heaps of lime, and on the moor lands such large
tracts in process of conversion? Well, now, Parliament
laid aside a sum of money for the improvement of the land.
Had there been any remissness in taking up that loan ?
Had it not been greedily taken up? The rate of interest
was 6. per cent., which was a high rate, and he should like
to know in how many cases in Ireland and Scotland had
the tenant agreed to take it up, and in how many cases to
take up the largest portion ; and, also, whether landed
gentlemen would borrow the money, and spend it in agri-
culture, if they considered that the landed interest
was a ruined interest, and that there was no
hope or prospect for it? With those questions to be an-
swered, he could arrive at no other conclusion than that
the agricultural interest, by dint of its own energy, would
survive the difficulties that had threatened it; and let them
reflect on the tenure by which they held their possessions.
On the 10th of April did they not thank God that a great
cause of dissatisfaction did not prevail?. Did they now
think they could carry a Corn Bill, or if they carried it,
did they think they could maintain it?—(Hear.) Would
they not rather think they were sitting upon a
tornado, and that they could not invest their money in land
with any feeling of security? Now, the Hon. Member for
Yorkshire thought that protection was the remedy which
Parliament ought to apply to the grievances of the landed
interest. His views, perhaps, amounted to this, that when
they had settled the question of malt and spirits, when they
transferred the local burdens, when they had repealed the
Bank Charter Act, then, in the next Parliament, by the ad-
dition of a protection of 10s., 'some moderate compensation
might be given.--(Great laughter.) Now, what would be
the effect of adding 10s. to the price of wheat? A great
authority on this point, Mr. Young, was good enough to send
him a copy of his speech with reference to it. Mr. Young
there estimated the total annual value of dip produce of the
country at 220,000,0001. Taking wheat as the standard,
and that was safficiently near for the purpose, and that its
price was raised los. per quarter, that would give one-
fourth part of 220,000,0001., or 55,000,0001., to put into the
pockets of the agricultural community. Now, that looked
something like relief.—(Laughter.) Considering that that
was very nearly the whole revenue of the country, and that
it in fact called upon them to impose upon their constituents
a tax nearly equal to the whole revenue of the country,
which was not intended to go into the Exchequer, it be-
came them to be careful how they made any such rule the
basis of practice. If they estimated the average wages
of the hand-loom weavers at 10s. a week, as the report
showed, the number of persons in a family, on the average,
to be four, and the price of wheat to be 60s a quarter, then
ss. a week, as one-half of the income over expenditure,
must be expended in bread. Now, if by a corn-law the
price of corn were raised 20 per cent., it was obvious that
such a • measure, as against the hand-loom weavers, must
operate as an income-tax to the extent of 10 per cent.
Why should that be done? With regard to the question
of the burdens on land, the Honourable Gentleman
who preceded him had in fact established his
own case, and, therefore, relieved him from the necessity of
following him. But he might be permitted to remind him
of this, that during the last five years, two Committees of
the House of Lords had sat upon this very subject, had gone
into it deeply, had pointed out all the burdens which they
conceive injurious and injudicious, and the remedies which
they were prepared to recommend. Neither in the report of
1846 nor in that of 1850, did he find any suggestion to ado' t
the course which, by the present measure, they were invited
to pursue.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that, under any cir-
cumstances, he should not prove a traitor to principles which
he sincerely believed had enabled them to pass—not without
suffering, but with mitigated suffering—through the greatest
crisis of their history—principles, he believed, which had
served them as a security, and not least to landed property,
which had been their healing portion, and which had
strengthened the foundations of the Crown and Government.
Colonel DUN NE said he had had some hope that the
agricultural districts of the country would have obtained
some measure of relief from the Government, and that Ire-
land might then have come in for her own share of it. The
savings banks, which afforded a fair criterion of the social
condition of the people, exhibited a melancholy picture. It
appeared from the returns that the sums lodged in savings
banks in Ireland had diminished from 2,920,0001. in 1845, to
1,840,0001. in the present year. The cereal crops were no -
toriously becoming more insufficient to assist the population
from the want ofcapital and skill. Under the Bill for the
sale of encumberel estates lan i in vast quantities was
brought to the hammer and disposed of by persons who
united the functions of judges and auctioneers. As an ex-
ample of the operation of this system, he had the return of the
sale of an estate which, in 1845, could have been sold for 18*
years' purchase, but which had been sold the other day for
25,0001., leaving a deficiency to creditors of 65,0001. If be
looked tothe return from the Poor-law Board, there was the
same dejected aspect of the condition of the country. The
state of the returns showed that Ireland was going down.
The land was getting into the hands of the lower class. He
was prepared to show that tobacco could be grown in Ireland
with profit. That would open up a much more profitable
market for cultivation than flax, to which the Hon. Baronet
(Sir James Graham) had adverted. The advances, many
of which had been forced upon Ireland, had been misspent.
The local taxation was much larger in Ireland than in this
country. The poor-law was thrown upon the owners and
occupiers of land, in addition to mortgages and other charges.
He objected to centralization, he repudiated the bad Govern-
ment of the country, and should support the motion of the
Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and he cared not whe •
ther he sat on that (the Ministerial) or the opposite side of
the House.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOCELYN said he would occupy the House but a
very few moments. He was anxious to have followed the
Hun. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Cardwell), because he had
said that he was a traitor to the policy of 1845, it he voted
for the motion before the House. The Hon. Member's
speech did not seem to touch the question. It went to show
the general prosperity of the country, in which he concurred.
—( Hear.) He regretted to differ from his Right Hon. Friend
(Sir James Graham), whose speech went to prove most
clearly the general state of prosperity of all interests except
one.—(Hear.) He distinctly admitted the depression of one
class—the agriculturists.—(Hear. hear.) lie distinctly
admitted the depression of that class. That was also
admitted in the speech of her Majesty from the Throne.
Up to 1845 he supported the general policy of protection.
Then a change came over the views of the country con-
cerning that policy, and when many of its ablest protectors
had lett it, the support of its policy became hopeless. It
was upon that view that he supported the Government, but
he believed that it must naturally depress the agricultural
interest. At the time he supported the change be was pre-
pared to do justice to their claims. (Cheers.) His courts
then was not inconsistent with the course he was now about
to take. The motion before the House called for Govern-
ment to come to a fair consPeration of the claims of the
agriculturists. He could not concur in the Construction put
upon the motion before the House by the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir James Graham), but would vote for it as he read it.
Mr. B. COCHRANE would vote for this motion because
her Majesty's Speech contained these facts—that the general
prosperity in the country had been the consequence of the
measure which he had supported, but at the same time
there was also in consequence of that measure great distress
to one class, and therefore they were the more bound to re-
lieve that distress. He should therefore most heartily and
sincerely support the motion.
Mr. COIIuEN said, that during the course of the debate
much doubt had been expressed as to the nature of the mo-
tion before them. Some Hon. Members said that it was not
for protection ; others, on the contrary, viewed it as a Pro-
tectionist motion. To the eye of common sense there could
be no doubt, either in the House or out of it, as to the real
object of the motion. Whether it was meant as a motion for
a return to a duty on corn, or for compensation for loss sus-
tained by the repeal of the corn-laws, he apprehended the
object gained by it would be protection.—(" No, no" from V
Protectionists.) He should not, after the exhaustive speech
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Rippe,
the
troubled the House with one remark, if it had noLbenieung
the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, in
i'lltirbr the votes
motion, seemed to ground the whole of his claiming
the corn-
of his supporters on the assumption, that in p
should thereafter
laws it had been agreed that certain prices
Gtleman quoted the
that
be obtained for corn. The Hon.
Gentleman on the Treasury
speech of a Right Honourable Ge:t
laws, and subsequent to
rnbl.e Gentlemen who in the
course of
oafndthoef
discussion
oitohnernifilabitinseoucar
opinion that prices would
their repeal, had expressed
and because they had not been so
Honourable Member for Buck-
sassumed that a certain compact
rangehig h
at to a certain
predicted, level,
the
Buck-
inghamshire
broken—that a certain understanding had
and then came forward with a claim
As he (Mr. Cobden) had some share in
for compensation.
ne discussion on the corn-laws, he
the long and wearisome notha d
bbeeenen
realrsed, e
lshead
He would from proceeding to grant must enter his protestlraruatgbaetinrst any such doctrine.—(Hear,
com-
pensationhear.) lie
for the repeal of the corn-laws, on such an
assumption, because he was prepared to assert that in the
whole course of his arguments on the corn-law question he
had never so much as offered an opinion as to what the price
of corn would be.— (Cries of " Oh, oh.") It Hon. Gentlemen
who cried " Oh, oh," would take the trouble to look
through the record of their proceedings, he was sure they would not—indeed he challenged them to bring an instance
of his ever saying what the price of corn would be.—(Hear,
hear.) He had always argued the question on totally diffe-
rent principles. Again and again he had stated that he d:d
not care what prices were under free trade so long as they
had corn at the natural price of the world's market.—
(Cheers.) They had it now at that natural price, and he
was content. The country was content—(Hear, hear)—and
the country would be content even if the natural price should
be 50s. instead of 40s. It was quite possible that it would be
nigh to 50s. by that time two years.—(oh, ob.) It bad
been 80s. since the repeal of the corn-laws--(Heart hear.
He could grant no compensation, therefore, under that pten
tiaviD4 puiteeted against' aiciviin Assumption, be ask .wha
t,

pr )of had they that the two Classes—landowners and
tanners— had suffered such grievous losses in consequence of
the repeal of the corn-lawn? One large landed pro-
prietor in that House told them that he preferred
no claim for compensation on that score. Would
Honourable Gentlemen tell him that landlords had
suffered great loss since the repeal of the corn-laws?
Would any Hon. Gentleman tell him that, taking the average
of landlords, there had been a reduction of 10 per cent on
rents?—(Hear, hear.) He had had information obtruded
-upon him, which showed that in many instances there had
been no reduction at all.—(Cries of " Name.") But sup-
posing the landlords had suffered a reduction of 10 per cent.
of their rents, did they imagine that they were the only
elms in the community who bad suffered losses during the
last four or five years ? Had persons who had invested
their money in mines or in railroads, or even in the iron
trade, suffered no losses? Even one branch of the cotton
-trade had not been so very prosperous during that time.
Were the agriculturists, therefore. to be the only par-
ties
state
toer
fernier
had compensated
been
different
fort h e iirnlosses?gh e rThesoils
il
localities. In some cases, in heavy clay lands, he had ni
different
t
ex-
perienced great difficulty end distress, but
which supplied potatoes, and other kinds of food for large
towns, farming had been no unprofitable business.— (Hear.
hear.) But wat was asked for now. was a general compen-
sation to all farmers, and to all landowners —( Hear, h,ar.)
They were asked to ignore the sutfeiings of the shopkeepers,
manufacturers, and professional persons. and to legielate
merely for the interests of landowners and farmers.--(Hear,
hear.) lie objected to that attempt of the Hon. Member for
Buckinghamshire on another ground. The Hon. Member
had told them that he sought rather to transfer a certain
amount of taxation from the landowners and farmers to the
shoulders of the other classes in the country. He had not
told them how that was to be done, and it was there that his
speech was so defective. Did the Hon. Gentleman intend to
increase the property-tax, or the tax on articles of consump-
tion ? Did the Hon. Gentleman propose that ? Nobody could
say what Hon. Gentlemen opposite intended.—( Hear.) They
were all mute. How were they going to take five millions
or six millions of taxation from the shoulders of one class
and transfer it to another? Let them be assured that nobody
could bear an increase of taxation. If any one thing was
more settled than another it was, that no Government could
shift taxation to any considerable amoant—(Hear, hear.)
Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer tried an ad
valorem stamp duty; but the alteration was opposed, and no
increase in the higher rate was obtained. If any one axiom
was better known than another, it was, that no modification
of a tax could be obtained by merely transferring it from
the shoulders of one class to those of another, for there was
more resistance from those upon whom even an additional
feather-weight of taxation was to be imposed, than there
was help from those whom The transfer was intended to 're-
lieve.— (Hear.) If this resolution were passed, it would be
the merest chimera to say that it would relieve the farmer,
when no one could tell upon whose shoulders was to be
placed the burden of taxation intended to be relieved.
The only way to mitigate taxation on the landowners and
farmers was by large reductions in the expenditure. No
Hon. Gentleman opposite had proposed any reduction in the
expenditure of the Government. Not one word had the
Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire said about that. He
(Mr. Cobden) wished to relieve landowners and farmers, but
not them alone, by a general reduction of expenditure. Let
them look at the cost of the colonies, and at the wasteful ex-
penditure, not useful even to the colonists themselves.—
(Hear.) There was there an. ample margin for reduction.
The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had cited numerous
cases in which he proposed to benefit the landlords. He
should not refer to them, because they had been ably dis-
posed of by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon
(Sir James Graham). There were a great many things to
which the Hon. Gentleman had not referred, but which
might benefit the landowners and farmers. He found
fault with discussions like the present, because they pie-
vented landlords and tenants from understanding each other,
and coming to some arrangement.—(Hear, hear.) Hon.
Gentlemen opposite were again leading the farmers on a
wrong scent. For three years they bad deluded the
farmers with hopes of protection, but now they said they did
not seek protectlon.—(Hear, hear.) Even the Hon. Mem-
ber for Hereford, the last elected Protectionist, applauded
the speech of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and
instead of saying one word about protection, plunged into
a boundless sea of statistics without a rudder or compass,
but said not a word about protection.— (Hear, hear.) He
he had stated he found fault with these discussions, be-
cause they prevented landlords and tenants coming to an
arrangement, Nine-tenths of their difficulties might be
got over by the landlords and tenants themselves, without
the interposition of the Parliament. At present the land-
lord told the farmer to wait, and he would get protection,
and the farmer felt if protection failed him that that would
give him a plea for compensation. But what was now pro-
fessed? Another plea to modify taxation—a vague, indefi-
nite, unfathomable proposal.—(Hear, hear.) He defied any
farmer, if he did not fall asleep before he got through the
seven columns of the speech of the Hon. Member for Backs,
to make out what the Hon. Member meant. He would have
them leave landlords and tenants to adjust their difficulties
themselves. He could point out something that would help
them. Did they not think that leases might be advan-
tageously adopted?—(No, and laughter.) What would
Scotchmen say when •t he mention of leases as a necessary
condition of good farming was received with a roar of laugh-
ter from the Protectionists?—(Renewed laughter, and cries
of " No, no.") Could anything more completely justify
what he had been saying, that they had not selected the
proper • means of remedying their difficulties? Did they
not think that their condition would be improved by a
diminution of the game ?—(Cries of " Oh,"and laughter.) He
did not think Hon. Gentlemen opposite understood the wants
of the farmers after all, for they the farmers) were laughed
at when game was spoken of.--( ear, hear.) It was stated
in evidence before the Committee which sat on the subject of
game, that on a farm on which game was preserved in the
ordinary way, the cost of the game to the tenant was as much
as the whole of his local and government rates.—( Laughter.)
He (Mr. Cobden) begged to say that it was so stated. There
was another law which, in his opinion, was injurious to the
farmers - he meant the law of distraint, which gave the
landlord a preferable and a prior claim over the tenant's
goods. He believed if that law were altered the tenant
would be disposed to lay out a much greater amount of
capital in the cultivation of the soil. Was there nothing
which the landlord might not himself do to improve their
condition? Would not a change in the law of transfer ba
beneficial? Would not facilities of transfer raise the
value of estates, increase the number of proprietors call
into existence more labour and diminish the poor rates?—.
(Hear, hear.) All these were things necessary to be done*
but could be done only by the landlords themselves. But
none of these things would be done so long as the fanners'
attention was kept fixed on motions like the present. The
lion. Gentleman had talked of the ten millions or twelve
millions paid by the agricultural producers. It was well
known that tee tax on beer, tobacco, and gin was a
tax paid by the consumers; but he believed there was not a
coalheaver on the Thames who did not pay more malt duty
than any farmer in the kingdom. It was the consumer, and
not the producer of an article that paid the tax.—(Hear.
hear.) He was surprised, at the present advanced
period of economical knowledge, that anybody should
have ventured so far on the credulity of the farmer
as to put forth such a proposal as that which had emanated
from the other side.—(Hear, hear.) Honourable Gentlemen
opposite, as a party,: were strong—numbers of them were
landlords representing a great many farmers, but they were
bound in justice to a large portion of the community not so
powerfully represented to pause before agreeing to the
resolution before the House. They might, by carrying the
resolution, reverse the policy of the last few years, or they
might attempt to compensate themselves for the repeal of
the corn-laws, but they might depend on it they were but
leading the agriculturists into another difficulty—into
another struggle with all the trades, occupations, and
professions in the kingdom.—( Hear.) But they would be
eaten again as before. They had now avowed that all
which they had been telling the House for the last ten
years was unfoueded.—(Cries of " No.") It was so, because
their leader had admitted that the great mass of the people
were in a state of comparative prosperity. The Hon.
Gentleman told them that the case of the landowners and
the farmers was an exceptional one, but that the prosperity
of all other classes gave him a strong case for the present
motion. Had they well considered what the motion in-
volved? It involved the consequence, that for the thirty
years, during which the corn-laws were maintained, the
landowners were doing great injustice to the masses of the
people—that they were suffering privation and misery at the
hands of the landlords. If it was admitted that the re-
peal of the corn-laws benefited the masses, it was impossi-
ble to deny that the existence of those laws injured them.—
(Hear, hear.) He advised them, therefore, not to say a
word about compensation, or again to stir the question.
He hoped the Hon. Members for Ireland would not follow
itlhoepeedxanmople temofptohraeryHeokno.
iteemleemnbteragfaeirnaPt ortthaerlGinogto. Government
on other
othequestions
masseswouldin h
tinduceiscountry. tohnerry. to vote against
knewthat
the
interests
the bulk of the taxation was raised from the consumers,
those who are not represented, and surely they would
pause before they would indict such injustice on those who
were not represented, by supporting the motion of the Hon.
Gentleman.

1 Mr. MOORE said he should support the motion for two
e
1 reasons, both of them resting on a strictly Irish view of the
question.— (Laughter and cheers.) This was the
bad
which, either from extreme tact, or extreme igno.r."ntcet_on.
been excluded from the observations of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Member for Ripon.
oTrhe_li. Gentleman
reproaches to his
who had just sat down had addressedf his picture of the
friend the Member for Portarlington, ? Wir, its
was
state of Ireland. What was that state .). , land
no one to purchase it. The
in the market, and there wears
in
the workhouse or drafted
letters of the land were_e.ietahr.
) A nominal proprietary and
off to foreign shores.—(ll_
waging war against each other--
a nominal tenantry_e e
wforr nothing ewes theirs. The lethargy
lighting for nothing
•-r-age o 1 competition presented a dismal
of despair and the
unparalleled
in
the history of the world.—
' antithesis unPhaartahad been the remedial measure 1 (Cheers.) presented
WLord? One of them was a gill to hby the Noble i prevent t e
i of crops by night, as a means of preventing agrarian
remove
outrage.
That was a specimen of the insufficient nature of
their remedial . measures • Ir is second reason for support-
ing the motion Isas that the whole population of Ireland
were determined to show the Noble Lord and the occupants
of the Treasury bench, that they should not retain possession
of them except upon the principle on which they came Into
power, namely, as friends of civil and religious liberty.
For years the Irish Members had supported the present
Cabinet, notwithstanding its many deficiencies. They had
shut their eyes to its weakness and incompetency.—
(Laughter and cheers.) They had voted with the 'Go-
vernment on the Greek question, or rather on the larger
question moved by the Honourable Member for Sheffield,
who saved the Ministry on that occasion.—(Hear, hear.)
There were many things is the policy of the Noble Lord
at the head of the Foreign-office with which they did
not agree, but they had supported him in order to show
that their religion did not, as had been asserted, either
ha
d
heretofore the intellect or degrade the soul. They
heretofore placed a staff in the hands of Noble Lord, and
the
~—n , ~
ear,
he had only used it to smite them on the teeth.—(Hear,
hear.) On the Treasury benches he was the supporter of a
enc es
b h, he
policy suited to the middle ages,
r civil and religious liberty,
the opposite
would again become the friend o
he would again become the friend of Ireland, if the Irish
out.- (Laughter.) He
Membe.rs would vote to put him
' • them would be cheatedat giving a vote,
hoped that none of
which would show the people of Ireland that they resented
a policy whicn was an i
insult to their religion, and were nad-
verse to a Minister who had excited the rancour of the whole
•
eeeple of Engi
brought
landagainst t.— (Oh, oh.,
Yes, the Noble
Lord had i
in a measure which would bit by bit in-
troduce a system of persecution. He hoped the Irish
Memhers would no longer: support a Alinister who' for four
had made use, of them for his own purposes, and who
n" y
years
on v
wanted
t nto
h air. )
ake use of them for more discreditable
ar
purposes. ,
Lord J. RUSSELL—I can assure the House that if I
were not persuaded that much more than the embarrassment
or fate of the Ministry was involved in the discussion to-
! night, I should hardly think it necessary to trouble them at
any length upon this occasion. Indeed, had the House been
as full as it now is when the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Ripon delivered his address, I should 'baye
been ready to declare that I could add nothing. to the