The Sun.
London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

.
U*4

curity than. was necessary at former periods. He
wished to take this Opportunity of expressing, his
concurrence in the sentiments which a Noble Friend
of his had expressed upon the'subjed Of the sMall-
ness of our former Peace Establishments. He had
long and deeply considered this subjea, and ,lie was
convinced, that although no serious-misfortnne or Ca-
lamity had happened to this Country from.th a t circum-
stance,. yet that there had been periods in the history
of this Country, when the interests,' when even
the safety of the Country -would have been endan-
gered, if the energy and talents of our enemies had
been equal to:the hatred which they entertained for
us, and to the:perfidiousness of the intentions which
they were afterwards known to have entertained:—
No Country could look- for the continuance of Peace •
without feeling a proper sense. of National Secdrity.
No nation had a right to-calculate upon, the dura-
tion of any Peace, unless it was possessed of such
:aos of defence as would7rnalee it inexpedient ande.
Jaaeorentaa• in- any Foreign, "ewer -to imtalt ita lane
nour. Without the meaos.:of National Defence,
io Stipulations of any. Treaty, - however advanta-
geous, could &e calculated. upon as permanent ; with
those Means of Defence there was a great, probabi.
lity of maintaining any Treaty. , It was therefore
the duty of every Government, in his opinion, to
ptoaride such means of defence, because without
them all the accumulations of commerce and wealth
would only lead to accumulations of anxiety, dis-
grace, and' misfortune. He wished, before he- en-
tered into. a Statement of the Estimates, to say a
word or two upon twoObjeftions that had frequent.:
.Iy.been made to a -large. Military Peace Establish-
. ment : the one of these ohjeftions was of a Con.
.stitntional, and the other .:of an. Economical na-
ture. With regard to the _Constitutional Oh.
jeftion, he begjed to observe, that •he should
bee sorry -if the . time '-was ever to occur in
-that House,: when a due-Spirit of Constitutional
jealousy was not manifested upon -the SUbjed
of Standing Armies. The .objection that had con-
, remedy been. made, was, that the maintenance• of a
;arge Standing Army in- tune of Peace, was incon-
sistent with the Spirit of the Constitution. He was
not.only ready to admit that .proposition, but was
ready to contend that the maintenance of any Stand..
ing Army, • whether large or small, without the
-consent. of Parliament, was illegal and unconstitu.
tional. But, on the other hand, he must contend,
that since the Revolution, a Standing Army, pro.;
portioned to the State of Affairs, " might- be legally
maintained, with the consent. of Parliament. It
had been said that goad Laws must be maintained
by.,good Arms, ~and .good Arms could only be cre-!
ated. by -gOod Organization and Discipline. It.
wot Id be useless. for him to take-up the tune of the
Coertnittee, in. maintaining so obvious a proposition,
• .f4;l,' 3 • 'MI etertaer v•e Its Laws pt
Constitution, unless it :possessed. such a Force as
liras sufficient to proleft the Public .Safety. He
could not conceive how • the quantum of -the
Force could emake any- difference in 'this Stage
of- the business.- The' ground upon which- this,
Force was proposed, was, that it was. necessary
for if it nut necessary, a-Standing Army ought.
not to be 'maintained at all.. Rut there appeared to
him no more danger, -in a :constitutional point of
view, in the difference between 35 or 40,000 men
in time of PeaCe, than _ there was in the difference
between 40,000 men in time of Peace, and 100,000
men in time of :ware the only question wasn whe--
titer such a Force• s,vasa necessary, ? The -other ob.
jetttion to Standing ArmieS, was, that pow,erful
ArMies ,and Navies could not ensure our security,-
hisa•that it was to be sought for in -economy. >He
was perfectly ready to admit that the Public Credit
might to be maintained• by every possible. means,
anO, that ecooorny • ought always to be prafliaed.
PUblic Credit was to be maintained by punfluality
and good faith in all our transattions, and the.
Public Wealth ought undoubtedly to be augmented
by all proper means. But still the question re-
verted to the necessity of the: case; if Ministers
could show that , t 00,000... men were absolutely
necessary for the Public Security, it would nor
be contended: that it; would .be tvise to. main,
tam a smaller Force. It had frequently been as-
serted, that money' was the sinew
,of War ; this
wasetrue, but it was not to be taken, entirely in the
abstrafl. Money trust have some body to which it
could-be applied, and upon, which it could operate,
and that body ought so be .a powerful Navy, and a
strong and well disciplined Army, capable, of being
ptiteiiatO action at ,the shortest warning. In cone
j atiddi-iing of:the propriety of augmenting our Force,
it should. be recolleCied that: We were now in pose
session of Trinidad and CeylOrn-and it of course re_
quired a considerable addition of • Force to garrison
those Possessions. Having made these preliminary.
observations, he would now
.proeeed, to enter into
the details of the Estimates whichhad been laid upon
the Table respeflitig the:Army, which he begged
leave to observe, was perfealy welkirganized and
disciplined, 'and
,•was capahle.of great augmentation,
if necessary, without any deviation from the system
which had been adopted, or withhut any. injury to
its discipline. The Force which it was proposed to.
maintain for
,the ensuing year was, three gegi-
merits of Horse Guards, and- twenty-seven Regi-
ments of Dragoon :Guards and Dragoons.. The
division •of -the Regiments of Cavalry was to be as
follows, viz. into . eight .Troops, and each Troop
to consist of 6o rank and, file., Qf these so .men
per Troop were to- be dismoUnted, it not having
been thought necessary that they should all be on
horseback ; and, by adopting this plan, a saving of
near 50,0001. a year would be made to the Public.
The total number of Cavalry would be 17,250 men.
The Foot Guards would remain, viz. three,Regi-
'penis, with their different Sattaliona, amounting
IQ 4060 men. . There would then he to Biittaliom

r" r"'"' •
6....., AI ,•••1 .
_ho', . 7;
. ..„.2 .: Ca •••' 1.,...i
~..; t.... 1
;_ • „.... , ~...
- ..ill-,, 4,„, ~,-,,@ "d( ..,•.)."-‘,/,-- ?
.1:24' ..._ ,
,'."-',' . 'l\
''.4, 'i."',' 7 *4,‘ 4;ffri 211 •,si' \'*!fr ,
%.:..) ', ...F•./ I;leTi-..V.,7-7,_
/ ''''''''
: ).:(-1(11- 44.17 •

[PRiCE §IXPET4CE.

of Infaeryj which watld comprise the numbered
Regiments of the Liabp toh93. There would also
be the two Battalions of the Royals, and the z 4
Battalion of 52d, a very fine Corps, and in the
highest state of discipline. and perfthion.—Also
the five. Battalions of the 6oth Regiment, and the
Rifle Corps; The Establishment of these Forces, it
was proposed, should-be seventy-five rank and file
per Company, :with the exception of :the Tweas
destined fur India, which' it was proposed should
have zoo men per Company, because the facility of
recruiting them was not so great as it was Fit home.
There were then the eight West India Regiments,
which were eight Companies each, and which would
consist of 4158 men ; there were originally twelve
West India Regiments, but they had been reduced
to eight. They were found, very useful in theWe,t
Indies, particularly when employed with British
Troops—The foreign Corps, which i; was pro_
posed to retain, were Staart's Regiment, which
had, upcxs eveteeemeciejsno, s'e;,itage;staed itaelf„and
the Swiss Regiments of Meuron and Wauevilte ; and
.these together would amount to 2532.- There was
besides, the Staff Corps, the Waggon "Pain, and the
New South Wales Corps, making in the whole,
including the Regiments in India, 128,907 men,
exlusive of Officers. The next point lie had to
state to the ComMittee was, the general disrribu.
tion of. those Forces. It would not, 'of coorse,,
be expelled that he should'' enter particularly into
this part of the subjeti. It would be sufficient to
state that 60,000 men would be employed --lOr
the Service of Great gritain and Ireland, 30,000
for the Plantaiions, and the rest for India: --
There was: some diffeeence between'the statement'
he was now making, arid the Abstraifl -which had
been laid Upon the Table with respeet to the Force
to be-employed in India.; the, 'Force adestined for
that Scr.v ice was three Regiments of Cavalry, and
foUrteen Regiments of Infantry. The ‘expence of
this. Force would amount to 4,0 us,oool. In,aodition
to the Regiments of the Line it was intended to
form seven new -Garrison Battalions„ to be compos-
ed of the Oat-Pensioners of Chelsea, and they were
'intended to supersede the Invalids. a It was thought
.better to form. Corps of this kind than to retain. the
Invalids, fur _though ,the Invalids had, been. of late a
much more serviceable. Corps than
tfbrineely, snit a
was thought better to alter the plan, and 10. get aid of
the name of Invalids altogether,- the re was soniethieg
in the very tame, Which implied ;hat they std ut
need of the assistance of crutches, lostead of being
able to handle muskets. The difference of.expenee
that would be incurred Jay the formatibn of the ..IT'ar-
rison Battalions, -instead of the Invalids,
.would-be
very trifling—not above 50001.. a -year ; but the'
difference between the expellee of the Garrison "Bat-
talioni-and the Troops of the Line, .wan;,; IN yen,'
material inileea..- Ire wished also to ada, that the
Cloathing of these seven Battalions'wouldbe made
onteof the Government Stores, without-early; addil
tional expellee to the Country for the ensuing year.
.These Corps would be able to perform the service-
of the Coast, so that the:Regimeots of the Line
might form a moveable. column, capable of acting
where Occaaion;might require. By this plan the
Army, would not only he, put upon a more formid.:
able footing, but it would be done with more eco-
nomy than heretofore. From the manner in which
the Army Would be composed, both with regard
to Cavalry and Infantry, it would be capable of
great augmentation, without -having recourse to
that plan which had formerly been adopted, and
which tended. to check the exertions and break
the spirit of old Officers,.. viz, that of raising men.
for rank. By the present plan, if any augmenta-
tion of the Army was,neeessary, one Lieutenant
and twenty-five Men per Company in the Infantry,
would complete, the Regiments to the War
.Esta-
blishment, and iu the same proportion in the Cavalry;
and if it became necessary to, increase the Army
still further, the increase would be obtained with
no other increase of Officers, :but that of Captains,-
Lieutenants, skc. He did not think it necessary -at
present to go more at length into -this part of. the
subjeft, but would reserve -hinseli,„ with the per-
mission of the Committee, to arswer any. objections
.that might be -made to this plan. The whole of
the expence that would be incurred for the Artily
. for the ensuing year would bee as appeared by the
Estimate, 5,270;0001. The only. Army Services
of which Estimates had not, been laid upon the Ta-
ble were very trifling, and such ase from the cir-
cumstances of the case, could not beat present re-
duced to an Estimate. There was, however' in
addition, the expellee of the IVlilitary'college,
and the Royal'Military Asylum; but he thought
he might - venture to state„ that , the wholeseex-
pence Would fall ; within Five Millions :.and a
Half, This was lesa than the expence of 'this year
by 2,070,0301. and. less than the expence of the
last year of the War, by 10,130,0001. And the
difference of expellee -in the Barrack Establishment
since last year, would lie 300,0001. He now begged .
-leave to take. notice. of. a -charge which had been
.brought forward frequently and positively against
His Majesty's Ministers,, of having reduced the
Public Force at a time when .such redutlion was
not compatible with the public safety. pie whole
Force of this Country in Ododer 1801, at the time
of the signing of the Preliminaries of .Peace.was
about
,e 50,000 men ; of that number 133,3+3 had
beep reduced in October - last. Of the Cavairy,
10,498 had been reduced. The Militia, which no_
! body would maintain ought ,to he kept in time of
. Peace, were reduced ;. they amounted to 7i,374,
,nien., The Fenciblese who could not be kept after
the War, because they were engaged to serve no
longer, amounted to
,20,679 men. The Invalids,
t 0.5122. men. With regard to the Foreign Corps,
he supposed it would not be contended that they
ought. to be retained when British Troops were dis,

I

missed ; the numbers of them -reduced •IrflOttilC.;
t_;,45 men. Of all other descriptions of force the
numbers reduced amounted only to 'joze men, and of
these a very large number were enlisted only for a
'limited period of service : and though they were
-net, 'perhaps., .strialy speaking, entitled to their
discharge on the conclusion of the Treaty of Peace,
yeras the At was so worded as to give room fur
doubt, he thought it was right that the good faith
cif Government should, be preserved, and that if the
men thought they were entitled to their discharge,
that they should receive it. Many of these men
were also 'entitled to their discharge on account of
their wounds. In addition to this, he had only to
state, that the British Army was at no period of
our History in a better state of discipline and or
der than they were at present ; it was never
composed of more able bodied men, or possessed
mote animation or military spirit, and was never •
commanded by more able and experienced General
Officers, In the flower of their age, and in the full
posseSsion of their strength and faculties. The
Army was also commanded by a Prince who under-
stood his profession as-well as any Prince in Europe,
and who devoted the whole of his time and atten-
tion to the perfection of our Military Force. In
addition to this formidable Force, we had an aug-
mented Militia Force -in Great Britain of near
50,000 men, and which was capable, if necessity re-
quired it, of being augmented 20,000 men more.
Besides all this His Majesty had been enabled to
accept the services of the YeOmanry Corps, and
above SOOO of them, chiefly Cavalry, were already
enrolled in England ; and in Ireland there were of
the same species of Force, above ro,coo Cavalry,
and a greater number of Infantry. Ail these dif:
ferent descriptions of Forces taken together would
snake (exclusive of the Army of India) an Army of •
above zco,ooo men, a species of Force which would
now in his opinion,' very much tempt any Foreign
Power to attack us. This being the aaual state of
our Military Establishment, and of cur means of
defence, he thought he had given a direa contradic-
tion to those charges of -timidity and credulity
'which had been made against the King's Ministers.
He should now, with the permission of the Com-
mittee, propose the first Resolution.
The Chairman having read the first Resolution,
BANKES said, he did not intend to have
taken part in the bebate, but that he had been
alluded to, by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He vas
glad that his arguments had been reverted to,
because he felt himself strengthened and confirmed
in the sentiments he had before advanced. He
had attended with great diligence to every thing
that had been urged in opposition to his opinion,
and if any good grounds had been offered to .con-
vince his mind, he should have felt no hesitation in
changing his opinion. But after all that had been
urged, he still retained his opinion that there were
other circumstances connected with the defence of
this Country, which did not depend upon the main-
tenance of a large Standing Army.. In stating his
sentiments upon this question, he felt great diffidence
in differing from many of his Hon. Friends, for
whose abilities and judgment he had the greatest
respect. If he differed from them upon the degree
of force which we ought to keep up in time of
Peace, it was not because he was less- concerned
than they were at the aggrandizement of France,
or that he did not think her views less hostile
to this Country: The whole of his conduit during
the War sheaved that he was anxious to prevent the,
aggrandizement of France. If he differed from his
Hon. Friends, it was that he thought more highly
of the natural means and resources of this Country,
not that he thought the power of France• less
formidable than they did. But the question, in his,
opinion, to be considered was this, whether in en-
deavour ing to guard against danger, we should throw
away what appeared to him our best means 'of de.
fence. When he heard arguments urged respecting
the relative state of the two Countries, and when he
knew that that relative state wonld continue as long
as the Peace, and that consequently the present Peace
.Establishment must be a permanent one, it became
Iris duty to consider, whether wie were not wasting our
.Resources, to guard against a danger which did not
exist. He knew it had been contended, that no
Economy was worse than that .of a low Peace Esta-
blishment ; and the Right lion. Gentleman had
stated, that the Country was exposed to great dan-
ger, from the smallness of our Peace Establishments:
on former occasions, he could only say, that those
Establishments were found adequate to the purpose
for which they were intended, and that they kept
the Country in a state of great respthability abroad,
and of security at home. But it we were to corn.
pare our Establishments with the Establishments of
France, and if they were to be the measure of what
we ought to keep up, if we were•never to be consi-
dered as safe unless we had a Military Force equal
to that of France, then he had no hesitation in de-
claring, that it would be impossible for us to keep
up such a force without absolute ruin. Such an idea,
he woutd-venture to say, was never entertained by
any StafeSman in this Country. The Military
Establishment of France was stated to consist of near
• half a Million of Men ; • it was obvious, that this
'• Country had not the means of keeping up,such
permanent force. Our Ancestors always thought,
that there were 'something else besides mere num-
bers, upon Which the safety of the Country depended.
There was in this Kingdom a radical strength, a love
•• of the Constitution, which was a better security than
the numbers of. Armies. If 'we were quiet and
Contented at home, it was not half a million of
men drawn up on the opposite Coast, that ought to
'create a panic in this Country. He wished to ask
• if our insular situation was to be counted for nothing?
lit did not wish to rely entirely upon that circum-
stance, but it certainly. was entitled to considers_
•••tion-=Nothing would make the people.more anxious
co defend their rights than when they fbund that a
stria econotny was practised at' home.—How had
we been able to make such great exertions in former
Wars ? Not by our population, not even' by the
courage and skill of our Sailors and Soldiers,
i:ut by *the public credit and public confidence
• we haie always Maintained.—He did not mean
that public credit and confidence were every
thing, and'. that great wealth might not tempt
• 2 .po e iful Nation to come and plunder
,us. He
admitted that money was not the only sinew of
Wale, because. the Nation that had men and itun

ivouid soon g!'s possetsion of it. Much had be •
said of-the tfifference of the stitte of Europe, but ltq
hoped that in future care would be taken how-.tve
were involved in Continental Alliances. He agreed
very much with what had fallen-from an Hon. Friend
of his upon a former occasion, that the great fault of
the policy of this Country had been that of implieat--
ing it in too many Continental Alliances. They
had occasioned great expence to this Country, and
had led us into Wgrs rather to fidfil our engage-
ments than to maintain British interests. One of
the great grounds o security which in his opinion
this Country possessed was, that since the period of
the Civil Wars, there never was so many men in
it trained and accustomed to Arms, and who might
easily be called together in case of any sudden emer-
gency.' The appearance of security was often the
best means of security ;‘ if our safetv depended upon
our having 60,000 men, he wished to know what
would that avail against the whole Force of France,
but if we relied with confidence upon a small
Force, the Enemy must be convinced that we
had some great and powerful means of defence in
reserve. Was it quite clear that the French
were desirous of trying their strength with us ?
' Upon out own element they could not contend with
us, and upon land the rxperince they had in Egypt,
must make them not particiilarly anxious to venture
a contest with us upon our own shore. Besides, it
was the interest of France and her Government to
maintain Peace, mid therefore he could not enter-
tain the same, apprehensions upon that subjea that
were entertained by many of his Honourable Friends.
Ministers had been charged with having reduced the
Public Force too rapidly, but he was never among
those who entertained that opinion, and he thought
the Right Hon. Gentleman had given a decisive an-
swer to any charge of that kind. It appeared
to him that a great part of our expence might be
saved by giving the sdldiers leave of absence during
a part of the year, as was done upon the Continent,
by increasing the number of dismounted Cavalry,
and by having a larger provisional Force, similar
to that which had been already established. He
apologized to the Committee for detaining them so
long, but he thought it right to throw out these
hints, because he considered the present Motion as
the commencement of a large and expensive Peace
Establishment.

Sir W. w:. WYNNE adverted to that part of
the Speech of the Secretary at War which related
to the discharging of men before the expiration of
the term for whiCh • they were enlisted. lie said
they were enlisted for five years, or during the
War, and that, therefore, they were not entitled to
be discharged at the end of the War, if it expired
before the end of five years, whatever opinions
some might have entertained to the contrary, and,
therefore, Government was not bound to discharge
them. He thought it necessary to take notice of
that part of the Speech of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, in order to spew that Ministers were not un-
der the absolute necessity of discharging men as
they had done. He should not wish to oppose the
large Establishment which was now proposed, pro-
vided the reasons had been assigned by Mini.
sters, stating this necessity. But he thought it
was too much for Ministers to ask votes without
any explanation whatever, to such an extent as
this; and the House must not forget that our ancestors
always beheld with great jealousy all large esta-
blishments in time of Peace. We had heard indeed
in His Majesty's Speech, a general reference to the
state of Europe, and the House had agreed in the
necessity of assenting to that sentiment ; nor did he
deny the existence of A necessity for this establish-
tnent, what he contended for was, that it was
too much for Ministers to ask it of that House
without having given some iEformation upon that
subjeft.
The SECRETARY at WAR said, in explanation,
that the Hon. Baronet was certainly corral in
stating, that in strianess, the men to whom he
alluded were not entitled to their discharge,
for that the period of their engagement was not
at an end with the period of the War ; but
he must repeat what lie said in the opening of
this Debate, that what Ministers did upon this oc-
casion, was not a compliance with what might be
justly demanded, but from a desire of avoiding all
disputes upon the subjeit. Wishing not to appear
harsh, and that the more especially as the men, tho'
not by Government, had been misled upon that sub-
jea, and taught to believe, they were intitled to
their discharge ; it was, therefore, a mere aft of
mildness in His Majesty's Government to consent
to it.

Sir EYRE COOTE said, that he should be very
short in what he had to advance to the House. The
large force it was now proposed to be voted for the
current year, appeared to him necessary, in order
to place us in that situation which prudence dictated,
in order to guard Us against any unfortunate, un-
foreseen circumstances that might occur ; and to
enable us, if necessary, to repel any attack, any
insult upon cur honour, or experiment upon. our
rights. He conceived, that the Force -nok,
posed, though perhaps more than fully sufficient to
guard our very wide and extended possessions, yet
it was prudent to have a disposeable Force, in the
possible event of an attack, to be employed as occa-
sion might requite, and to meet any difficulty which
might, in any shape, be opposed to us. Ireland, he
said, would reqUire a great part of the Force now
proposed to be voted, and he took the liberty of
stating, from some degree bl experience, that the
plan to be adopted with regard to Regiments, was
superior now, to that which formerly took place;
he alluded to the number of which Regiments were
composed ; formerly they consisted of three or four
hundred men, but they were now between seven and
eight hundred: a plan of which he approved as being
more effective. He considered, that the times at
present were big with momentous events ; we were
all bound to look upon them with the most serious
attention; he hoped His Majesty's Ministers would
ad with that firmness and. dignity, that was requi-
site in such a conjUndure of affairs, and such as
was worthy the character of Government, and the
great.Peope, whose interests it was their duty to
prated. We all wished to have a continuance of
-Peace, but he believed there was no ,Man in that
House, nor any. virtuous Man in this United. Kin-
gdom of England and Ireland, who .would consent to
continuing Peace IY:1 any terms, that were not con.

: .
sistent with the charaaer of the 'United Natio' ns, for
integrity and honour.
~.Lord TEMPLE said, that consistently with the
principles upon which he had acted in that House
since our establishments had been proposed, it could
trot be expe&ed of him that he should oppose the '
present Motion on account of the excess of our
Military Force which it proposed. Conceiving as•
he did that every thing that was dear to this Coun-
try, depended upon its exertions at the present mo-
ment, he was indeed convinced that our best exer-
tions should be made in order to meet, if necessary,
the last extremity., Convinced, as he certainly was,
that the main objeaseof France was to destroy this
Country--Convinced, as he was, that the ruling
passion of that ,Country was to accomplish that
destruction, as the glorious end of ail its efforts,
and, therefore, he would say, Gud fotbid, that
any vote of his should tend to damp the spirits of
this Country, or indeed to check the spark of spirit
with which His Majesty's Ministers at last seemed
to be moved, for it was indeed but a spark ; he was,
however, glad to see it ; he must observe, that
although he should vote for the present resolution,
the manner in which His Majesty's Ministers had
brought our establishments forward, was not justi-
fiable ; because they called for large votes of supply
without a statement, which the House had a right
to expert, by way of official information. He could
not help observing the manner in which the Navy
Estimates were prepared; no official information
preceded the proposed vote upon that subject, nor
did he believe any information at all would have
been conveyed had it not been for the laudable
zeal of a worthy relative of his, who had first
called for that. information, and which produced
that Debate. The House had indeed, to-night,
heard a Speech previous to the Vote which was
now before it, a very able and eloquent Speech,
containing sentiments which, as an individual, did
the Hon. Gentleman who delivered it, the' highest
credit : the House had heard, that Peace should be
preserved, if possible, but that War should be en-
-tered into, if honour required it—God knows, that
was the substance of all the information which it
contained. Not a word of explanation,' in what
light we were to consider those Estimates—whe_
tiler they were the Estimates of War, or' the Esti-
mates of Peace. . As to the situation of the Coun-
try, whether we were likely to continue in Peace,
or going to War, not a word of explanatiOn—no-
thing of the language which he expected to be held
out to France, and which it was the duty of this
Country to hold to France—" thus for shall you-go,
but no farther." The House might, indeed, be said
to be voting au immense Eitablishment, without a
word of Official Information concerning the real na-
ture of it. But there was one point which he
thought called loudly on Ministers to explain, now
that they were proposing this large Establish-
ment, which was, why, during the whole Summer,
they followed a System of Reduction ? He heard a
Right Honourable Gentleman declare, that not a
single man bad been discharged, who could have
been retained, after a given period. This he de-
nied, and for which he would aPpeal to fans. In
a Committee• of Supply, 95,000 men were voted ;
on the Ist of June, orders were issued from the
War-office, to reduce the Army on the 24;11—and
it has since been reduceit nearly w one-half, in the
instance of five Regiments. Some were reduced in
September, and
_some so late even as the 4th of Oc-
tober. This he said was the more culpable, as Mi-
nisters had received information that St. Domingo
was completely in the power of the French, by which,
of course, they might be the more formidable to
this Country, if so disposed ; and of that dis-
position no man could V entertain a doubt. The
truth was, that, during the whole of the sum.,
mer, in proportion as the French we're increasing
their strength, , we were diminishing ours.—He
then proceeded to observe on the affairs of Switzer-
land. He said, that Mr. Moore, a Gentleman
highly meriting every Braise that could be bestowed
upon him, well known to be entitled to the highest
respea for the sersices he had rendered, had all at
, once disappeared from this Country, and appeared
in Switzerland, where, it was alledged, he held
some conferences with the Swiss Insurgents. What
his instructions were from this Country were not
likely to be known soon ; but every one who knew
that Gentleman, knew that he followed his instruc-
tions implicitly. He could only say, on this sub.
jea, that it was an additional proof of the
misconduct of His Majesty's Ministers; for,
if they intended that the mission of that Gen.
tleman to Switzerland should •be of any use, it
should have been accompanied with afts to give it
effect, and nothing could du so without preparations
in this Country for hostilities, if necessary ; instead
of which, at that very time, Ministers were dis-
banding their forces. He then proceeded to censure
the conduct of Ministers ever since the Peace, for
haviog constantly observed a system of Reduction ;
but having done so, he had'done no more, he said,
than his duty, in order to explain the grounds on
which he voted that night—it being a qualified
vote, a vote arising from a conviftion of the neces-
sity of the measure, but not from an approbation, of
the condua of Ministers.—lt might, indeed, be
said, as it had been said, on a former occasion,
that it was keeping up the system of Ministerial
Votes, and Opposition Speeches, that he approved
the Measures and disapproved of the Men—that
was precisely the case, he had approved of the Mea-
sures, and disapproved of the Men ; and it was per-
fectly well understood to be so. Ile was of opinion,
that the Government. was at present placed in the
hands of Men, who were unfit to condua it. He
knew, indeed, but one Gentleman, who Wa6 fit for
that purpose, and hint, he wished to see in that
Office ; he.was a man to whom the Country looked
up, on whom the minds of the Country were fixed,
and who possessed the entire and unlimited con-
fidence of this Country. He concluded with ob-
serving, that it was on the necessity of grunting
great Supplies, that he grounded his assent to the
present Vote, but repeated, -that His Majesty's
Ministers had, proved -themselves to be unfit for
their Offices, and their confidence in themselves
seemed to increase in proportion as the confidence
of the Country in them seemed to diminish. •
Gessexed MA/TLAND said, if he concurred in
any thing which had been said to-night by the M-
LA: Lard who had just sat down, it was in the sen.

tiMent of approbation he expres!.‘d 'of Oil. -% of
the Right Hon, G.-...ntlen-nm who had o;.teti thls
Debate ; ii;deed it was so able oral
Speech, that it left little to be said on the same
had it not been for some observations which
were made upon it, and on the general corduCt 0f1.17
nisters ; nor should he have said any thing to-nIVE
had. it not for, been some.of these observations.

ee.
Hon. Gentleman who-immediately followed the Se'
cretary at War, had adverted to the practice of °Le'll
ancestors, and to the wisdom of their pradieca
was very tar from denying tile Coastitutioaal
under which they acted; bat before we eotaludeu.
upon that subjeCte we ought to consider %rat' f!..
was likely our ancestors Would have done, had fll°7••;
been placed in our citeumstaaces They had -3/w:lYs.
manifested, in the best periods of our
a great regard for the Preservation of the-alai-Ince
the Power of Yurope. it was always their I'oife7'
to support that Balance: he was warranted in sayirgf
that if our Ancestors had been surrounded with 'le
circumstances which now surround us, theyova°"
have at least made as much preparation to meet ant'
possible event, as we are now making ; he said 14
was judging of what they would do, by looking
what they had done ; and he would add, that
which had been said by the Honourable Genii-el •
Man (Mr. Biaaas), on the subjed of our se"
curity being in Economy, Economy, did not tiOri
-
to our situation, at the present. moment. But 00°
he would take a short view of the Speech of 0.1-
Noble Lord who had just sat down, who 'had saw'l,
that Ministers had not offered any argument for tlf.-
Establishment which they now proposed. To tl"s
he would answer, that arguments were unnecess3‘J
—if there were any who really wanted argumenef-se
upon the subjeds, he would begin with them, by
asking what they thought of the present Situation °
Europe—whether that was enough to justify theVl.l
now proposed ? If they told hint not, he believe'
that argument with them would be useless, at 161!C
as far as he was capable of conceiving the fot'ef
of an argument, for it transcended his idea ?
to
human ingenuity to prodoce another argument ti
favour of the present Vote, than was to be ILO;
lir the present state of Europe. He woukl not tl°'t
go over the'state of alt the Powers of Europe, IPI
he should just intrear the Committee (what w'ai
deed not necesaary; since every Member of ic,`v4k.
ready enough to do without any intreety) ,t 0 I°°„'e
at the present state of Fracce ; her power for :Act':
and defence ; and the) without any other consitic;
ration, although there were many otheni, would 6
a suflicient cause for the Vole now before the C 0
mittee. He desired 10 10-0 k at the temper and
dition -of the Governor and Governed of that CJuil;
try. He knew there was a difference of 0ri0.,"
on that subjed, but ehe -was confident of chill
that the Moat judicious men in France, as w-
as the rest of Europe, were convinced that at
as
this . moment the heading, ruling passion of
People of France was military enterpriz6
ap
that the GoVermaent of that Country at rif,
sent was the Government of the !:.-oword ; and atg
the person at the head of it was, it-not the great`:,
or the firet, the most ambitious General 10
rape. Was. there not something to be added to th'sei
he mait4ained there was. Our feelings were 1.7 p
hostile to France upon principles of general- iti" A
ship"; but the vivahhir 4 Fretwe to.w...a.rdt us 114
Item the jealousy they felt at contemplatiavg,,
happiness of this Country, anal they envied out ~J tale
stitution. With regard to Switzerland, he w°, ,"01.
only say that he agreed with the Secretary cat ire
as to the propriety of abstaining from the use of of
ritating language : but on that subjed he wouldire"fc
venture to give a name to his feelings. if ever
was a breach of trust aolennly reposed, and ab'r6t
fully violated,• it was to be found in the conel°o
of France towards Switzerland ; but what fe:ho
did that teach him ? What inference diui,„t
draw front it ? He drew this inference, ‘a
France having proved herself to have the will,
ought to take care that she shall not have
means to offend' us. He looked at their prel'3,e;
tions for Sea and force by Land, with great anlcles,a
although he had great pleasure in refletting, that ion
had voted so,ooo Seamen, and that 48,000 of
might be ready in a few days, if necessary ; but 0'11"o;
ever might be clone by our Navy, and every ttyt
would be done that a Navy could do, yet we Inau,
also have a considerable Army, and under the •e f
'
spices of its present illustrious Commander in Chatf.
every thing might be expeCted, that a great i%r
could accomplish. Here he pronounced all eor
gium on the talents and charader of His 14gi
fto
Highness the Duke of York, and paoless_e
feel pride in being an. humble Member of the'
Eddy, which was under such command. ficetitltt
proceeded to observe on a point without sv"effi,
he said, neither Army or Navy could be the
• event for a long continuance, and that sfla''
f 1
Spirit of the People. He said, that the Spirit °
People of this Country was perfediy pacific '`,
if
time the -Peace was made, and he was eonfiden;oetla
had not 'been made, the Table of that Hooscee t"
have -been crowded with -Petitions for I" foto
tainment of 'that obja, and which mast' ao0';
their force, immediately impede, and finallyrt.tA
trod the procedings. of that House in sall'°olo
the War ; fur such was the relation betWeel fice
Representative, and the Constituent Body 010.3 gal
Stile, like ours, that the one could never iontamil
ceed without the approbation of the other.; 1-IP`!ri'. tersf
occasion he had looked at the onduat of 1141"'s
1 F"
both with regard to their agreeing to toe .ilce
and their conduit in the Establishment they ha.a,,,lll,icti
recommended to Parliament to adopt,
bofore
it
that House had adopted, and part was now coo
and he was ready to declare, that in the whole °l.eas
Ministers had his entire approbation. But thetakifig
another suhied of which he could not help to
acity
novice=--The Noble Lord had declared the ioc'ePto.b°
of the present Ministers—Now, if they wen
sac soee-
removed, the question was, who was,likeir,:irix
ceed them ?—The Noble Lord could not toio,o
part of v-
the Hdnourable Gentleman below him (Mt' 'ot
he could not 'think of wishing to see at ,he ' beg
hated
His Majesty's Councils man who had-coar"s
cite
to seal the death-warrant of his CoalltrY:er al°
. Noble Lord called the Treaty of I'dt:.:cee,'l`ay eft
1-lon. 'Gentleman had always -most •,a)
pressed approbation ,of the'. Peace.
s tg
Hon. Centlemao on the same Bench with jaor
perhaps suit the disposition of the I'l'W°

1