The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-14 00:00:00

DEBATE.

Mr. FAGAN then rose to resume the adjourned
debate on the Ecclesiastical Tithes Bill. He felt that in
a great measure the subject was almost exhausted, and
the House weary of this discussion.—(Hear, hear.) He
regretted at all times to act in opposition to the present
Ministry, but his duty to his constituents compelled
him to do so on this occasisn.—(Hear, hear.) He might
be blamed fur not having helped to drive the Govern-
ment from office so as to detest the Bill; but he thought
the sting could he easier taken out of the 13111 by the
existing, tha's by a new, Parliament.—(Rear, hear.)
It was his intention on the present occasion to take the
peculiarly Roman Catholic view of the question; and in
the course of the observations which he was about to
address to the House, to place more distinctly than it
had hitherto been done in this debate the feelings
which the Roman Catholics entertained upon
the subject. The addresses which had up to the
present time been delivered in this debate, had with few
exceptions emanated from Churchmen or Dissenters.
The Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) an
eminent member of the Society of Friends, has charged
the Established Church with causiing great secessions
from its own pale to that of the Roman Catholics; and
then he turned round and slightly aspersed a body which
numbered 200,000 millions of individuals in its body.
The Hon. Member for Sheffield who had attacked the
measure of the Government with great ferce and with
his usual ability, had asserted that no sane man who
thought could be a Roman Catholic. Only three Ro-
man Catholics had yet addressed the House, and, there-
fore, as one of that body to which they belonged, he
proposed to open the whole subject. In doing so he
should follow the course marked out in the excellent
speech of the Honourable Member for Carlisle
(Mr. P. Howard), and introduce those argu-
ments which that Honourable Member had omitted.
In doing s) he could assure the House that he had
not read a single copy of the 150 pamphlets which he
was told had lately been published on this subject.
In the course which he intended to adopt he should re-
verse the plan that had been adopted by the Noble Lord
who opened the subject, and first show what the effect
of this measure would be upon England, and then how
it would, if carried, be likely to affsct the Roman
Catholic population of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
He knew that the opinions of the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government, and the majority of the Mera-
bers in the House, were, that the doctrines of the Ro-
man Catholic Church confined the intellect, enslaved
the soul, and made the subject; of that religion believe in
the mnmmeries of superstition. And he did not wonder at
these prejudices existing among the educated classes in the
country. For the last 300 years, scarcely a work had
issued from the press, whether on history, geography,
religion, or politics, which did not contain the mist false
and calumnious representations against the Roman Ca•
Undies. The position which he took wtis, that there
had been no territorial aggression, nor any intringe-
ment on the rights of the Crown, or of the
Established Church. They were told this was a land
where religious freedom was cherished, where free and
unmolested expression was allowed to every man with
reference to his religion, where any stet, however
small numerically, might have the full benefit
of those ecclesiastical forms which they conceived
necessary for the spiritual welfare of their soul. If that
be the case with reference to the smallest denominations,
surely the same privilege could not be denied to the
Roman Catholics, who composed one-third of her
Majesty's subjects in the United Kingdom. He
considered that all the odium which had arisen
against the Roman Catholics was not to be
attributed to them, but to the press, which had pub-
lished the documents alluded to by the Noble Lord, and
which were never intended to be made public.
The Hon. Geetlemen then proceeded to compare the
different doctrines of baptism held by the Roman Ca-
tholic and Protestant Church, from which he contended
that the Roman Catholic Church was much the most
tolerant of the two. The whole matter turned upon
the two tenets of the Roman Catholic religion—one
was, that the Popo was the successor of St.
Peter in the See of Rome—was the head of
the Catholic religion, and as such had the power of fill-
ing up every diocese which might be vacant in every
part of Christendom. With respect to this, the Noble
Lord had made a mistake in saying that the Pope
had made any usurpation in appointing Dr. Cul-
len; the Pope was the only person who had any right
to nominate an archbishop .—(Hear.) That he thought
disposed of the recommendation of Dr. Cullen, and jus-
tified him iu the observation which he had addressed to
the House. The other misapprehension into which the
Noble Lord had fallen was, that such an interference as
that which was now complained of would not have been
attempted in any other country in Europe.—he forgot
America—such was not the case. It. was true that the
Roman see had in several instances given up its
rights, but the real fact was that the Pope ruled
the Roman Catholic churches in seveisl coun-
tries of Europe by concordats.—(Hear.) In Prussia
the concordat was restricted in its powers, because Prus-
sia was a purely despotic country. All Hon. Members
knew the strongly despotic character of the late
King of Prussia, and, therefore, it was not to
he wondered at that the spiritual position of the
Roman Catholic *population in that country was
not so elevated as it ought to he. But with France
and with Austria the case was different. In both of
these countries the Pope ruled the Church by con-
cordats, In the former of these perhaps not so completely
but in the latter without any reservation of
the spiritual power exercised by the Pontiff with
the cognizance of the authorities under the
celebrated concordat entered into with Francis I.
The Roman Catholics knew not the Pope in a temporal
point of view, he was looked upon only as a spiritual
sovereign, and as such submitted to. (Rear,
hear.) It was true that at one period of the
history of this country some of the Popes attempted to
exercise temporal authority for their own aggran-
disement.—(Rear, hear.) Such an individual was
Alexander the 6th, who was a disgrace to
the Popedom. He concurred with what had
been said by the Noble Lord the Secretary for
Foreiau Affairs, that the Pope of Rome snould be an
independent prince. The Catholics of England and
Ireland did no more than the two thousand
clergymen, with the Bishop of Exeter at their
head, when they asserted that the Queen had not supre-
macy in the Church of England in matters Ecclesiastical.
(LEFT SPEARING.)

THE BUDGET.
The Budget is not likely to come on to-night.

-------
PUBLIC WOOL SALES.
(THIS EVENING
The attendance of buyers is good this evening, and
the biddings appear to be tolerably brisk. Prices are
about the same as at the opening yesterday. There are
two sales this evening, and they have not terminated up
to the time of this account being panned. Of 1,526 bales
offered by one broker, 394 are Australian, 32 South
Australian, 301 Port Philip, 7 Van Diemen's Land, and
554 Cape of Good Hope.
Another broker puts up 432 bales of Australian and
86 of Odessa, &c.
Sydney wool has been sold this evening at Is. 3d. to
Is. 10d. for clean sheep's, and handwashed and scoured up
to 2s. Oid. Lambs has been at is 20. to le. Bid. Da-
mag, d is. 40. t. is. sd. pieces Is. to Is. 21d., part greasy
84d.. and broken Is. 20. Skin, Is. 3id. to is. 8,1., and
locks 10d. to Is. Cape is selling at is. Id. to is. 4d
per lb.

DESTRUCTIVE FIRE.—A very serious fire broke
out this morning, shortly after one o'clock, on
the premises of Mr. Mitchell,
_letterpress and copper-
plate printer, at Lovelt's-court, Pdternost et.
rOW. The whole of the stock is completely burnt, and
the premises gutted. Part of the premises of Messrs.
Reed and Pardon, printers, have also received consider-
able damage. Mr. Mitchell is understood to be insured.

SEABORNE MAILS.
DT egnitlea that the malls are sent from the General Yost-office
by the nlght—and M by the morning—dispatch.]

' When made up in From what
PLACES. General Post-office port dia- When
London. patched. due.
America (by Brit. pkt.)Nl February 14.. .. !Liverpool .. Feb. 26
America (by U.S. pkt.) N February 21 ..'Liverpool . Feb. 17
America (by US. pkt.) M March 8 .. .. Southampt. Feb. 22
Africa (West coast).- N 14th of the month Plymouth March 3
Alexandria* ........ X 19th & 30th of mo. Dover .. Feb. 18
Belgium .. .. ~
N Daily .. .. . . Dover .. Daily
Brazil
.
• • • •• M 9th of the month Southampt. Feb. 24
Buenos Ayres .
. M 9th of the month Southampt. Feb. 24
California(viaChagres)M 17th of month Southampt. Feb. 20
....
Cape of Good Hope N 14th of month Plymouth.. March 3
Constantinople*
N 7th 17th 27th of mo Dover .. Feb. 20
Central America .. M'od & 17th of mon. Southampt. Feb 20
Channel Isles .. .. N Mon., Wed., &Fri. Southampt. Tu. Tl 4. Sa
Chili •••• • • M 17th of the month Southampt. Feb. 20
France
Greece* .. .. . N 7th 17th 27th of mo Dover • • Feb. 20
.. .. M&N Twice daily .. .. Dover • • Twicedaily
Hamburgh .. .. N Tuesday & Friday 'London .. Tues. Sat.
Holland • • .. M Wednes. & Satur.!London .. Mos. Thur
Honduras ..
.. . N 17th of the mouth ISouthampt. Feb. 20
Ireland ••M & N Twice daily .. .. Holyhead .. Twicedaily
India (via Southamp.) M 20th of the month Southampt. Feb. 28
India (via Marseilles) N 7th& 24th oimonth Dover • • Feb. 23
Mediterranean (via
Southampton) 0.. 3120th of the month ,S uthampt. !Feb. 28
Mediterranean (via I I
Marseilles) .. .. N 7th& 24th ofmonthlDover .. Feb. 23
Mexico .. .. .. M2d of the month.. Southampt. March 5
Malta* is Dover Feb. 20
Madeira .. .. .. M 9th of the month Southampt. !March 12
, c ,7tb,17111,19th,*z7111! I
• • • • -L , & 30th of month
.. !
Naples.
.. .. .. Nsth 15th 25th ofinoDover .. Feb. 22
Papal States* .. .. N'sth 15th 25th ofmo'Dcver Feb. 22
Peninsular.. .. .. M 7th 17th 27th of mo Southampt. !Feb. 15
Peru .. ..
25 th of mo!
Feb. 22
M 17th of the month Southampt. IFeb. 20
..
Tuscany* .. .. .. Nsth 15th Dover
West Ihdies .. • • 31.17 th of the month Southampt. Feb. 20

Papal States* .. .. N:sth 15th 25th ofinolDcver ..
Peninsular.. • • .. M 7th 17th 27th of mo Southampt,
Peru
..
.. .. .. M 'l7th of the month Southampt.
Tuscany* .. .. .. Nsth 15th lith of moiDover
West Ihdies .. .. 1%.117th of the month Southampt,
West Indies (except 1
Ilavanna & Nassau) M2d of the month ..
* The mails to those countries thus mar'
French packe Ida Marseilles

!Southarn pt. ;March 5
ied (*) are conveyeJ by

THE SCOTTISH LINES.--We can state with good
authority that arrangements are in progress with one another,
and with a great southern company, which will raise very
considerably the market, as well as the intrinsic value of the
Scottish Central, the Scottish Midland, and the Aberdeen
line of railway. Last week no fewer than seven hundred
head of cattle, and several hundred sheep, proceeded along
the latter line to the southern markets.

~~

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

OUSE OF COMMONS, Feb 13.
THE BUDGET.
In reply to a question from an HON. EVlOll' id ho
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCFIEQUER siee tee
should make his financial statement on Mondayee
m
event of the debate on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill °u
eluding to-morrow.—(Laughter.)
MR. DISRAELI'S MOTION.
to liost.
Sir E. BUXTON intimated that he was read 4
pone his motion on the African slave trade, Pro
_
other Members would do the same, in nrriereetl;gmlaveur
pot
to the debate on the motion of the 11013. a--
Buckinghamshire. Bra'
PERROGATIVE COURT (IRELAND) member'
A re quest having been made to the 11011. I
to to the
(Mr. Keogh) to withdraw his motion with regard
introduction of this Bill,
opMpoasjiotironßtt boll°
Mr. KEOGH wished it to be understood the
_sole
not aereed to withdraw that motion. The llonie°l,4
EoRthEeSF
BiII,ORD was understood to express b
Member (Major Beresfor6) had not thought it
blugt"bol
openly oppose the introduction cf the 13.11;, segeter
walked up—he would not say sneaked up.--(-4ebdrof
and cries " Order.") He would w"te the
the observation, but the lion. Member walked uPsitienis
Speaker's chair and intimated it. silsnco his oPPue eo co'
the motion.— (Laughter ) The observationroitiss
vortly made—he walked up and intimated his °PPI. ge
by gesture, and not by remarks.— (Hoer, be did, and
thought it would have been a more open, eu
manly tour-e to have stated the reason of his oPesed of
Major BERESFORD said he had been foe o e teing
nt
sneaking up— (Cries of "No, no.")—h 0 mei/ rebel
his disaPPotcat sra
up—and whispering to the Speaker
at the introduction of the measure. Now he tooar
actly in the same position in whichinhinuouudei Prkle,n-
bat
spoke to the Speaker not certainly
yre
sufficiently loud to be heard. The statement '
unfoMunded. eenie
r. DISRAELI said he thought there was vegan'
apprehension between two Hon. Members.
o,itiou to,
Member for Essex wished to make 80We °PPe ore9ol
the Bill, but bad refrained from doing so on Irlie
occasion, because there was an understaudi.neeh helot.
House that no business was to be proceeded fiearned
the adjourned debate. He hoped the Hon. u
an
le (If the
Member for Athlone would follow the exaniP
rest of the House.
The motion was then withdrawn. n 1459
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.--ADJ-611
essel
DEBATE. VIP"' j 0
The Marquis of GRANBY' opened the , Is,
debate. He thought the Right Hon. Gent'er lb;
Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his answehed bee'
isli
Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire', e, wb-01
led into a variety of extraneous Mat"(4.hey
had nothing to do with the. O
question.
triglPl.
now had five years' experience in free f egrireie
the consequence was that the interest 0 /0 e
ture had been most seriously damaged' -rtere
country there were grown 24,000,000 qiisdePreCiie.
lion from
bise6sH.
wheat per annum, and there had been Ne quarter
Bens.cl, waaliamtr dP.tios:A;
auto::bei?r,,
onto.
Friend
Itobrowmaredastootedifeotratiereaenter-atdeer,mosrtointhaeny]ianyle'clistoru 11°4
legislation upon the subject.—(Hear, bean)
emhestn
came before them to obtain a relief from theve-Ofel
which pressed upon the agricultural elees surr"ol
cries of " Hear, hear.") He was, therefore' been Oho
at the opposition with which the motion lisuenerett:ll,
by his Right Hon. Friend opposite (the Chance, eerico,
Exchequer.) He merely wished to relieve t" ete
A bee° 00'
tural clases form imposts which ha", the oA
tolerable.—(Hear, hear.) Looking 11" etion
deration in which the terms of this in' cd ibe
deb
couched, he did not think that the Ministry e resa
would ham the boldness, the temerity, °r "
/gear, s
ness to meet it with a negative.--sk to serf' if
the relief or British industry.
The only object which his Hon. Friend had welt
Antre 014/"tbs/
there were to be free trade in anything, 4. f but
be free trade in corn. He sought for no relie,o,escuii.e
which was to be obtained from a relief frottlbten only se;
burdens on agriculture. Ile had taken tt been tietihst
Bible article, the payment for which has ((recant-1
iP
boned—the article of labour, and he ree, cc*
this had been depreciated in an unusual elegreutestsil
a degree which was not warranted by them l° °o%
It was impossible far the British farmer to co"S paY
the foreigner, for the British labourer deed,
upon his tea, his coffee, his malt, 00' in wash:4li
everything tat he consumed, and therefore I e wersifehs
sible for him toll's° without higher wages tblic"egor the
on the continent,—(Hear, hear.) The Chehitber put eA
orw agriculturistsrurelieve
e nvt
tdboe them
on
Exchequer, iu these circumstaeces, tonuteihe forelve 11
fatreoplmlo
the
tchiheoenai
rgt or
di
cicompetesutirteusrsa. with
(l
0I :erne rsi
:te
thatsfroqels
were the cause of their own Wief°r‘pures'erit c°o
was not they who established our those yOO
mercial system. It was founded it hogo
occupied the Treasury benches, or 1
e 0
their bounden duty to restore proteente.Uporl,4oo
taxes and local burdens that pressed hellviiate ret spa
and the occupiers of land.—(Hear, heat) jot 0;8' the
in the amount of pauperism at Michaehnilgoe 0100
ptorioebe
oflOprpoevrisiocreoinea,niwoohnilteed theto
30redynecr-cdeeta.iforededi,
was a curious fact, and to his irliheeeris.ll2, itt
ion ips frritode alwayso
f pr
provisions.—(Hear,
vin s
oanns
eratio we ) 6.2:l:lllsiorofxrne; ear!
a conclusive answer to those who said 135-e`e ctie-a r
minis
occasion he had accused the Right Honetivile
the heed of the Poor-law Board with willi"Pa
tbe
talDj°
ing with or doctoring the returns u-f
et otos;
which came throught that &patiosow of
Government, but he begged now, in ibleetestatemoeliatlor
Right Hon. Gentleman, to retraeti2-,-, Bon. l. 0").,
(Cheers.) He did not believe the ilig-„e__(Cheerejor
man was capable of flashing false fetus of the Po°,1,;00
but it really was a ray that the returh6,,d.ManY 'of
Board were so much mistified and cow's' bePrf 0
were to him quite incomprehensible; hlldierdetoooo,
could admit these returns, exhibiting th'be p 0957010
the national pauperism, they ought to ea elliPlefed
of returns showing how many "Ad beaubeeqf tbel,
on the road, and howha" d 101'
many belief d
by private parties.—(Hear hear) 1,1 be feu boa,
had such returns befert them it wow" diatiois ew:
free trade had increased rather thsli, of the dew- 'life;
(Hear, hear) They had heard to-nigh' eistrese he P'"
don of workhouses in Suffolk, and of the sod sod cor
existed in some of the manufacturing distr7prearoses•
one thought that such facts as these prUsevsneer PaoPlii
elusively that the labourer was better off e Ile bole
tion then uncle r free trade.--(LVar, hes r*,elb e
prefer high prices of corn and high wagese, 'ropero4,od,..
ever, was that the price of bread did not isse'llo3ite of ",,ise,„o'
with the decreased price of corn. Taking °'-'weeld 0110571
the annual consumption, at 565. the quarter, heelbPeed,he
price per pound Id. and a fraction, and taking 's P°, et aht •
the quarter, would make it about three fartu's-esouleue'; itsyo
14s. 6id. per year. A family of four Perauh"ed.; ":"-t
less cost of corn, save an expense of 21. 18s- or ere,
labourer's wages were reduced Is. ad. Peseeould °tee Pr,;sl
amount to precisely the same sum, and he "oe iabe wo'f
fore, in that case gain anything by the reduce le/sou-es
of wheat, but if his wages were reduced 28* °foot°
be a loser.—(Hear, hear.) Suppose that , bee it d Otto
loaves can be made of a quarter of wheat si
h vo°
lid
56s the quarter, the price of the loaf el• rate
wheat stood at 365. the quarter the price °Lc deer,c7 yto
he 3id. The price of bread had not, hoVeveee'ir 5g 0.1 ho
this this proportion,and he d wes
e 'eve ~,aec ,
Right Honourable Gentleman (the 'lma rbe"ot
Exchequer) referred to the evidence of Iderioeees,,o
stated that the condition of the lah°,9reeerse at. to 6,:f;111e1311,
autumn was satisfactory; but be comer-440e. ".ease,,etss,
a much higher authority, that of the Rigut, .Cod, °1"
himself, which he gave before the Salariessasiont be
01,
reply to a question put to him on that sem Orcectsos
that no great reduction had taken place it:1604:100V
persons holding high offices consequent onto office "ced'sge
duties. He did not think that in the high it redu eo e)
een any diminution of expenses. Ta%essweeed tl3..eortAble
he said that servants' wages hadincreaseo, hsd ete
rent had not diminished. He (the 3,larcieur °tit)!
wanted to know why the expenses of the P 9,1, regiroor
creased when the opposite prevailed irl`' most toad,
wealthy ? He had now gone through theb" vibicelsgb
points of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speees rose. eel
upon that of his Hon. Friend the member tor jacitteeTe
shire, and replied to them. He had avoided.alltbe Pi-be, tot
ther the manufacturing interest was really ifjoess to At id;
condition it had been represented in that debate,af etc
cause it was foreign to the question
ehise the 01der,,,.
same time he felt it due to himself, end e. be 9 ntee os,
which he acted generally in that House, thatjll the ie
his own conviction that this branch was no
tio girt be e
V
ous state that it was represented to be eer' stiig 00 00
Gentleman. And he believed that valuta' If tbigols
favourable aspects, it was fast depreciatiog• abets it, et d
time to treat of that sutject, he could show froeerstWo'e of of
which was deserving of the highest centre, couch doe
House. This conviction was increased in rejsPeee pool
present debate by the nervous and hesitato2eie_ot,t A
Chancellor of the Exchequer. If they could_rii or all,
tion to the landed interest, whether they lilt-d tho,
must admit that for any tax they placed uP°lllo,ed n0r",,0%
production an equivalent duty should be Ez, sow softy"!
reign. It was in no spirit of hostility tot.",'; tp d° bores
Russell) that he would say that if be refuseueeagts
for the landed interest, at the same time adineils oubwis
toe ` ere spy'
other interest was in a state of prosperity, Or be '
Pr not t
come to the conclusion either that he was - ' ress ate,- 0
declaration, or that he was determined to. 011 0 0130$
important in the country, and that upon weilleoceeern
pended, and that it was the principle of the refoyA
damp the industry of' the eountry.—(Cheers"reloth!,„lve
Sir J. GRAHAM then rose, siting with sevege 00.
hers, all of whom at once gave way to him' follortthe 'f
obliged to the House for permitting ire to
eveeiag,.!,loo,
Marquis who has just spoken. On a foreler of se°,
ov too 0,
speeches had not occupied so large a portion
be tro
ot,
'
have been my desire to have addressed' j the '1)0'
f
then upon what I conceive to be a question e teed inn
sent POO „oat
moment, and, considering the pre boo 's SiPaPl
affairs and the state of parties, to r_okees e,of
opinions without disguise, and• with fielsrse..) Vorica
to that of the Noble Marquis.-e(near, e s.a2
however, that a short time has interven:tee, reti,vo,
the question, because I had much i; n„teen woot
cases, that a short opportunity should Toy, syea
tion preference to at once expressinte.,7,, bear.ttio
pressions would lead MC to state.—(ilea teens„ais
I proceed further I shall, with great pi eziZt owe Als'ilieo4/
or three points in which I agree with the e% into to
to
teo
has just sat clown. I cordially join withtVvente
re to
!to
—I was going to tay, though I can "to
that word—but I cordially agree in saying 0 the 01'1 eegtha
speech of the Hon. Gentleman who pease ,„ of ho
exemplary 14 moderation and ability.--',.'exauiP'eatiP,Di
see', also, that I our prepared to follow tileieridiag P,bet
Noble Marquis, who told us that upon tiv°. first,.`caltelo(
had expressed his opinions without disostos'oe agri je
great body of the working classes, includingt
chaegesoiets,
labourers, had been gainers by the
reeLliherate d Ore
fiscal policy; and next, that it was his be (0010 elPe.
, The - °id
upon. reflection, that sooner or later it won"'
client to return to a system of 'proteefleMd the oa';
quis enunciated these two an 'bile he I"' -Seri
had added what was when's- unnecessatat aeetousee se
in doing so he had said nothing offeniive bury
I mean to join issue with the Noble Blztrqul'