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London, England, 1851-07-30 00:00:00

bishops of this Crown? This Bill left the Roman bishops
of the colonies to take rank after the bishops of this
crown. It was too late in the session to rectify this; but
although he considered this Bill as passed, yet he trusted
their Lordships would not consider the question settled.
What, did their Lordships think of passing this Bill with
no intention of enforcing it? A penal Bill passed with the
professed intention of not enforcing, it was an encourage-
client to further aggressions. That must be a weakening
of the Protestant cause in England. He believed that
the interests of humanity were at stake in maintaining
the reformed faith in England. Ho knew the subtlety
and power of the Roman pontiff. For generations they
had studied to obtain absolute power over the Christian
Church. He deprecated weakening the force of their
national protest by the passing of this Bill, which was
not to be enforced. They had, not only a true creed
in England, but an epovolicel Church, and that was the
Church which the Jesuits and Remanists wished to
uproot. But he trusted their Lordships would uphold
the reformed faith. They had against them all that
the subtlety and power of the human intellect could
do, but they had the truth of God with them, and he
trusted that they would hand down to their children
that pure and reformed faith which they had received
from their fathers.—(Cheers.) It was on these grounds
that he called upon their Lordships to support the third
reading of this Bill.—(Cheers.)
Lord STUART DE DEITIES entered his protest
against this Bill, as uncalled for in this country,
and unjust towards Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) When
their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects wished episco-
pal institutions for the promotion of their spiritual
interests, why should they not be allowed to have
them ? Had they not bishops of their own, and
why should not the Roman Catholics have bishops?
They should remember the golden rule of doing to others
as they would be done by. For three hundred years the
Catholic Church in Ireland bad been governed by arch-
bishops and bishops appointed by Papal rescripts, and
yet they are now called on to sanction a Bill which
would cut off that necessary intercourse between the
Catholics of Ireland and the see of Rome. The conse-
quence would be, that the people of Ireland would have
recourse to every species of political agitation to obtain
the repeal of this obnoxious Bill.—(Heer, hear.) Indeed
they had already established a Catholic Defence Asso-
ciation, and ere long that country would exhibit scenes
similar to what was witnessed before the passing of the
Catholic Relief Bill, in 1829. The Noble Lord then
alluded to the la's outbreak in which Mr. Smith O'Brien
was involved, and said it was more owing to the exer-
tiocs of the defamed Catholic priesthood, than to the
presence of the military, that the people were restrained
from joining in that insurrection. Believing that this
Bill, if passed into a law, would be fatal to the welfare
and the peace of Ireland, he felt bound to vote against
the third reading.---(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of ARGYLL said he felt bound to defend
the Bill against one position which had been taken by
the Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Oxford), namely,
that the Bill would be of no value if it were not carried
into effect, meaning, as he (the Duke of Argyll) inferred,
that it would be useless uhless the penalties were en-
forced. To that view of the matter he must say be was
altogether opposed. He looked upon the passing of the
Bill as showing what law was established with respect
to the assumption
,of titles, and that knowledge he be-
lieved would prevent the Roman Catholics pursuing the
course which otherwise they might fuel inclined to fol-
low. The Noble Duke then explained that in the re-
marks he had felt it his duty to make upon the protest
of the prelates of the Established Church, he by no
ans meant to convey any personal offence. Ho ad-
mitted that at one period the Church of England had
been the great bulwark of Protestantism; but at present
it was the only Protestant Church which day by day and
week by week, was sending over converts to the Roman
Catholic Church.—(Elear.)
j The Bishop of OXFORD having said a few words in
eiplanation,
Earl FORTESCUE next addressed their Lordships in
support of the Bill. One of the first votes the Noble
Lord said he had ever given iu Parliamen was given
forty-six years ago, in support of Mr. Ponsonby'a mo-
tion for considering the Catholic claims, and since that
period ho had uniformly given his cordial support to
every measure in favour of civil and religious liberty.
lie was of opinion that the present measure was called
for by the circumstances that had occurred. He hoped
the law would be obeyed without the necessity of en-
forcing the penalties to which the Right Rev. Prelate
had referred.—(Hear.) He had no doubt that Parlia-
ment would do its duty, and that if the necessity should
arise in another session, measures of a more stringent
character would be passed.—(Hear, hear.)
,The Earl of GLENGALL denied that the conduct of
the Catholic priests in the late insurrection deserved that
favourable notice which had been made by a Noble Earl
opposite. He considered that the proceedings of the
Synod of Thurles showed abundant reason why the Bill
should be extended to Irelaud.—(Hear, hear.)
Earl NELSON did not deny that an aggression bad
been made in the step taken by the Pope, on the prero-
gative of the Crown; but was of opinion that the step
taken by the Government was not the course calculated
to arrest that aggression. He looked with suspicion on
the Bill now before the House. When the matter first
seine forward, the Noble Lord at the bead of the Govern-
ment did not take notice of it, and then, when the ag-
gression had gone to a certain length, the Noble Lord
put forward his letter, which proved a brand of discord
to the already too much divided Church of England.
The Bill, in his opinion, would prove a deathblow to the
present Ministry.
The Marquis of SLIGO felt it to be his duty to enter
his protest against the Bill, whiclh he complained of as
au unfair attack on the rights and privileges of the
Roman Catholics of Ireland, seeing that the alleged
offence was confined to England.
Lord REDESDALE adverted to the course taken by
Lord Stanley (now the Earl of Derby) on this question,
who said if the measure were one calculated to support
the prerogative of the Crown, that ho would support it.
And looking at the whole question, he (Lord Redes-
dale) felt it his duty to give his entire support to
the Bill, the object of which was to oppose the aggres-
sion, not merely as a spiritual one, but as a temporal
one also; and viewing it in that light, it completely, he
should say, cut the ground from under those who op-
posed the aggression merely as a spiritual one. He
looked upon the whole proceeding as an ultramontaue
one, intended to entrap the most respectable portion of
the Roman Catholics into support of it. The Noble
Marquis who had just sat down complained that an at-
tack had been made by the measure on the religious
rights of the people of Ireland, seeing, as he said, that
the offence was confined to England; but, looking to
the conduct of the Roman Catholic priests in Ireland,
and the manner in which they viewed and spoke of the
Established Church of this country, he thought that
her Majesty's Government were perfectly justified in
applying the Bill to that country. He felt that the Bill
was called for, and hoped that it would become law this
session. He wished, whatever course might be taken,
that Roman Catholics and Protestants might continue to
live in peace.—(Hear.)
Viscount GAGE would endeavour to show to their
Lordships that since the Catholic Emancipation Act of
1829 the Roman Catholics bad in every way proved
themselves worthy of their civil and religious rights ;
and that the step recently taken by the Pope was
taken on the recommendation of the English Roman
Catholic hierarchy alone, for the purposes of the disci-
pline of the Roman Catholic Church in this country,:and
not by the Pope, as from himself, or with a view to any
assumption of power against the Crown of this country.
All the evidence, including that of Cardinal Wiseman,
proved that, and that the Pope had nothing whatever
to do with what was spoken of as Papal aggression. He
(Viscount Gage) was in a position to show that the
English Roman Catholic hierarchy had ground for the
step which they had thus recommended to the consi-
deration of the Pope—a step solely intended for the
establishing of their own Church government, and
their Lordships might take his word for it that the
Roman Catholic hierarchy were no more frightened
about this proceeding than the keenest politi-
cian in their Lordahipa' House.—(Cries of " Hear:
hear.") He thought that their Lordships ought
to legislate cautiously on this question.—(Hear, bear.;
The Noble Earl was almost inaudible in the gallery, but
he was understood to express an opinion to the effect that
a great fuss was being made about a shadow. They
were, he thought, breaking a butterfly upon a wheel.
The Roman Catholics Church would not care one six-
pence about their Bill. They should prohibit the absorp•
tion of wealth and property by that Church, but he re-
gretted that the Government appeared to be withdrawing
their attention from realities, from the establishments
fur supportieg and propogating the Roman Catholic faith
in this country, to the ideal aggression which had been
made by the appointment of these bishops by the see of
Rome.—(Hear.)
Earl GREY explained with regard to what had fallen
from the Bishop of Oxford, that in the colonies the
Church of Rome was by law placed upon the same foot-
ing as the Protestant Church. In some of the colonies
they shared equally in the Government grants, and in
others from having acquired them from Roman Catholic
countries they were the established church. Under these
circumstances it was utterly impossible to deny their
claim to any social distinctions they might possess.
For himself, ho regretted that these titles should
exist at all in the colonies, and it' he had had the
power to make any alteration and go back, it would
be to deprive them all of titles, and place them upon
an exact equality. It was an anomaly to encumber men
with titles and dignities, whose incomes did not in many
instances enable them to sustain the rank of common
clergymen. They did not recognise any district titles,
only the rank which any clergyman held in his own
church, as Bishop Wilson or Archbishop Poulden. If
this distinction was attended to, much misapprehension
would have beers removed.
The Bill was then read a third time without oppo-
sition.
Lord MONTE AGLE then moved the addition of a
clause, with a view to remove certain doubts that might
arise from misconception of the meaning of the Legisla-
ture. He proposed a clause, the effect of which was,
that if the Roman Catholic prelates would use the de-
signations in the Catholic B. quests Act, they should free
themselves from the -penalties in this Bill. He asked
their Lordships whether they could suppose that at the
time Lord Cornwallis was Lotd-Lieutenant of Ireland,
and Lord Castlereagh and the Duke of Portland were
Ministers of England, he asked them to say if at
that time Papal bulls had been received in this country
appointing Roman Catholic bishops, as had recently
beeu done, whether the Ministers he had alluded to
would have ventured to instruct the Lord-
Lieutenant to send a message to the Irish
Parliament, reconinaentling the Irish Lords and Com-
mons to pass such a measure for Ireland as the one now
before their Lordships, on the ground that there had
been a Papal aggression in England? Why, if such an
absurd thing had been attempted, the Irish Parliament
would have laughed the Government to scorn.—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord repeated the objections to the
Bill which ho urged in the former debate, and concluded j

by moving that the words he had proposed should be
brough!, up and added to the clause.
The 'Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he would not
give a negative to the prepoeitioa of the Noble Lord
without briefly stating his reasons for doing so. The
Noble Lord seemed to perceive the tame daogera in this
measure which had been alluded to by the Noble Earl
(the Earl of Aberdeen) who commenced the discussion.
The Noble Earl seemed to think that mischief would
ensue—that indictments might be instituted, the effiict of
which would be to debar Roman Catholic prelates from
the free exercise of the Roman Catholic religion, and
from that protection of the law which he asserted they
now enjoyed, and which the present Bill would not, in
point of fact, deprive them of.—(llear.) The Noble
Lord denied on a former night that such a Bill was sat
all necessary, and argued that it should not have
been proposed; but had such a course been pursued, and
had the Government been quiescent, there can be no
doubt that the public excitement would have been greatly
increaesd, and that a short time would have elapsed ere
they would have witnessed still farther encroachments
on the part of the Pope, and have seen the Protestant
Church considerably weakened in its influence. When
they had seen in Catholic countries the difficulties which
powerful sovereigns had to a❑counter in meeting the en-
croachments or the Church, he felt perfectly sure that
the course which Government had pursued was the only
safe and proper course, under the circumstances in which
the country was placed. He ailmived that there was a
portion of this Bill which he would rather not have seen
in it. lie mean; the clause that gave power to an in-
former to presecute for penalties; but notwithstanding
that objectionable portion, he thought the Bill, as a
whole, was the best measure they could have adopted. it
had b !eta sttid that the power Maimed over the Roman
Catholics was spiritual, and that territorial power was
never contemplated; but to any one who looked calmly
at the subject, it must appear that the step taken by the
Pope was of a temporal as well as of a spiritual cha-
racter. He did not think, therefore, that the proposed
amendment was necessary, and he trusted that their
Lordships would be of that opinion, and while they
would give the Roman Catholic the full and free exer-
cise of his religion, they would, on the other hand, take
such a course as would secure the prerogative of
the Crown, and effectually check any undue inroad
upon it.

The Earl ST. GERMANS was of opinion that the
speech of the Noble Marquis who had just sat down
contained in itself arguments in support of the Noble
Lord (Lord Monteagle's) amendment. The words
adopted by his Noble Friend iu his amendment, in
speaking of the Roman Catholic bishops of Ireland,
were iu the very words which were commonly ma a use
of by the Noble Marquis himself (the Marquis of Lans-
downe) in speaking of those bishops. And it was on
record that, whenever they were spoken of, either offici-
ally or by historians, they were designated as Roman
Catholic bishops of so and so, as, for instance, the Ro-
man Catholic Archbishop of Armagh, the Romsu Ca-
tholic Archbishop of Tuam. There was not until com-
paratively modern times any instance of Roman Catho-
lic bishops being designated " Vicars Apostolic" in these
kingdom, and the first vicar apostolic of whom there
was any record wa4, he bolieved, appointed in this
country by Gregory XV. There could be no question
that the Roman Catholic archbishops and bishops in
Ireland were the direct and lineal descendents of the
original bishops appointed by the see of Rome in that
country. Looking at all the circumstances, he should
support the amendment of his Noble Friend.

Lord
CRAN Wok ni felt it necessary, in conse-
quence of observations which had been made in allusion
to him by the Noble Earl who had just sat down, to
explain that what he would be understood as having
said wa., not that if Dr. Wiseman should cull ' himself
the Archbishop of Westminster he would expose himself
to penalties under the provisions of the Bill; but that it
he should call himself the Roma❑ Catholic Archbishop
officiating in the district of Westminster, which was as-
signed to him, or that of the Roman Catholic Archbishop
of Dublin, or act in the same way in relation to the dis-
trict in which he presided, and that he was officiating as
Roman Catholic archbishop within that district, he would
not be liable to penalties.
The Ths,top of OXFORD said the Noble Earl (Earl
St. Germans) had fallen into a great error in stating
that the Rowa❑ Catholic bishops in Ireland were lineally
descended from the ancient Roman Catholic bishops ap-
pointed) by the see of Rome. The fact was that a cen-
tury, or almost a century of a break had occurred; ue-
tween them, and the schism which led to it was greater
than that which had occurred in this country.
Lord MONTEAGLE replied, and consented to with-
draw the clause.

The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.

Oa the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR their
Llrdships went into Committee on the Charitable Trusts
Bill.

Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.
Clause 3, after some discussion, was agreed to.
Clauses up to 18 inclusive were agreed to.
Ou clause 19,
Earl PO WIS moved the omission of the clause.
After some discussion the clause was agreed to.
The Duke of CLEVELAND then moved that the
three London royal hospitals should be exempted from
the provisions of the Bill.

The Earl of WARWICK, as we understood, supported
the motion.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said the Noble Duke
and the Noble Earl had altogether mistaken the object
of the Bill. No one would interfere with the manage-
ment of Christ's Hospital, which had been particularly
alluded to by the Noble Duke. It had been thought
right by Parliament to adopt a general system for the
management of charities. There were a great many
other charities which it was proposed to exempt, hut,
unless they should exempt all, they could not fairly
exempt any. The real question was, were their Lord-
ships prepared to exempt particular charities, or any
charities, from the operation of the Bill.

The Earl of CHICHESTER said they found by ex-
perience that large charities were generally better ma-
nager: than small ones ; yet i❑ all large charities it was
occasionally necessary to take steps to guard against
abuses. The effect of the proposed system would he to
s; cure the charities now in existence.
The Marquis of SALISBURY supported the amend-
ment.

The amendment was then put, and negatived withou
a division.

The Bill was then passed through Committee, and the
House resumed.

The House then went into Committee on the Lease-
hold Tenure (Ireland) Aot Amendment Bill, which
passed through Committee.

Their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter•pust Eleven
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. July 29
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
VENTILATION OF THE NEW HOUSE.
Mr. OSBORNE asked whether it was not the case
.hat instructions had bean issued to Dr. Reid, which
prevented him from ventilating the now House of Com-
mons in the manner he desired? Perhaps the Hon.
Member(Mr. Greene) would also state whetherit was in•
tended to decorate the House with additional heraldic
device,?
Mr. GREENE replied that some degree of change was
necessary in the ventilation of the building in conse-
quence of alterations in the architect's design, but no
special instructions had been issued, which at all affected
the plan of Dr. Reid. As to the other question, it was
intended (as we understood the Hon. Member) to place
the arms of the different Speakers beneath the gallery
above the chair, and the arms of the different corpora-
tions and towns in the compartments under the Members'
galleries.
Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to know if the sittings of
the House during the remainder of the session were to
be held in this House, as Members were put to great
inconvenience in consequence of having to go so far to
the library when they desired to consult any books or
journals.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was desirable that the remaining sittings should be held
in this House, as they would then have an opportunity
of ascertaining what additional alterations would be re-
quired in the new House.
Mr. WAKLEY observed that the atmosphere of the
House last night was injurious to health.—(Hear.)
Unless some alteration were made they could not sit
there without actually endangering their lives. He
understood no provision had been made for the ventila-
tion of the House. Some Members must have suffered
from the bad state of the atmosphere.—(Hear.) He
therefore hoped they would resume their sittiugs in the
old House until some arrangements were made for
the ventilation. While on this subject he would suggest
that the green baize which shut out the ladies' gallery
from the House should be removed, and that ladies
should be treated like other strangers, and not, like wild
gr.)
n m ale, be shut up in a etige.—(Lau hte
MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
METROPOLITAN SEWERS BILL.
On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill.
Mr. WAKLEY rose to move as an amendment that
the Bill be committed this day six months. The me-
tropolis had much cause to complain that
a large and comprehensive measure upon this subject
had not been brought in by the Government.
This Bill proposed to continue for twelve months an
expensive and useless board, whose proceedings had
hitherto been exceedingly mischievous. The board was
perfectly irresponsible, and paid no attention whatever
to public opinion. The income of the Commission last
year was 90,0001, of which 77,0001. was derived from
rates, and 13,0001. from contributions, while
the expenditure amounted to no less than
1,259,0001., and of which 23,4631. was for
the cost of management. Rather than this board should
continue the metropolis would be content to have only
one responsible managing commissioner, and ho there-
fore hoped the House would not proceed further with
this Bill.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS seconded the amendment. The
whole of the inhabitants of the metropolis looked upon
this board as a job, and Government had no right to
force it upon them for even a day longer.
•—;The CIIANCELI.OR of the EXCHEQUER said
this Bill was only intended to be of a temporary cha-
racter, as the whole subject of the water supply and the
sewerage of the metropolis was now under the conside-
ration of a Committee, and the result of that inquiry
was likely to lead to the production of a large and com-
prehensive measure on the subject. Under those circum-
stances, nothing would be more inexpedient than to
throw out this Bill, which was simply brought forward
to give the House and the Government ample time for
de ustng some new system of managing the sewers of
the metropolis.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said the argument of the Right
Hon. Gentleman would be very good, if it were in-
tended to continue the present Act. The fact, however,
was that the Bill did no such thing. It was a new Bill,
to reduce the quorum of the board-from six to two, and

i to empower the Govers,m trit to pay the head commis-
sioner a s Itry of I,oeo/. a year. The pie sent CAI:1-•
missioners etsd no time to attend to the business of the
Commission, aed he objscted t the Bill continuing
the Commission over for another year, at an expense
of 1,0004 It would be much better to continuo the old
Act, and then begin in good earnest to reform the
system next spring.
Lord DUDLEY STUART wished to obtain some
information with regard to the Victoria sewer. He
wanted to know what wits tho original estimate of the
sewer; secondly, tee contract price; and thirdly, the
actual cost. He was decidedly opposed to this Bill, be-
cause it had been brought in at so late a period of the
session. They were told that it was too late now to
hope to pass any other Bill but this, and therefore they
must pass it. Tee whole of the metropolis was crying
shame upon the Government for their misconduct in re-
ference to these sewers, and yet they had the temerity to
introduce a Bill to reduce the quorum of the Commis-
sioners to two, and enable them to pay some official
1,0004 a year.
Vi'count EBRINGTON said it was a gross misre-
presentation to say the present Commissioners had
squandered the money of the ratepayers in executing use-
less public works. if the Commissioners had not done
everything thist was desirable, at least they were not liable
to the wholesale imputations which had been heaped upon
them. The Noble Lard then proceeded to relate the
history of the Commission, which he said was nomi-
nated by the Lord Cnancellor. It wai calculated that
under the old system nu less than 240,0001. of
tho public money was wasted owing to the de-
fects iu the plans Lead levels from which the
sewers were constructed, and immediately that the
existing Commission came into the charge they set to
work in reforming end amending the plans until they
succeeded in obtaining a comprehensive and accurate
survey of the whole metropolis. Tho result was that a
great saving was effected in the sewer expenditure, and
the rates were reduced 75. in the pound, at which
they stood in 1847, to something under 4s.
in the pound. Whin the Commissioners were first
appointed they entered upon their duties by restoring
order in the sewers' Lffice, and propounding two great
schemes for an arterial survey of the metropolis. Tna
underground survey was complete, while the Ordnance
survey only required four streets to be added to make
it complete. The block plan was also in a state of great
forwardness. While these preliminary plans were being
prepared, great complaints were made against the Com-
missioners for not entering upon actual sewer
works, but the Commissioners did nut allow any publics
clamour to drive them into the commencement of works
upon insufficient data. Directly, however, their plans were
matured they entered upon the construction of works,
and up to the 26th of July works had been executed to
the extent of 200,0001., while works to the ex-
tent of 150,0001. were in the course of
construction, thus making the total value of the
works which the Commission had undertaken during
the nineteen months in office amount to 350,0001. The
benefit which the public derived from these works might
easily be estimated when he told the House that the ,
present Commissioners executed their works at about
half the cost of the old Commissioners. He had been
asked three questions about the Victoria sewer by
au Honourable Member who had preceded him,
and in reply to those questions ho begged to state
that the estimated cost of that sewer was 8,272/., the
contract price was 7,7005, and the actual cost up to the
present time was 12,360 L The probable cost at its
completion would be 13,5061. Many of the works of
the Commission remained in a state of abeyance, owing
to a technical defect in the Act of Parliament, which
prevented the Commissioners from raising money by
way of loans. Government was applied to for assist.
mace in the difficulty. Government, however, declined
to render them any assistance, and the Commissioners,
therefore, had no alternative but to put up with public
°dam, and levy rates whenever works were required to
avert disease or promote the welfare of the poor. As for
the charge of corruption, which had been brought for-
ward by the Hon. Member for Lambeth, he would not
condescend to refute it; he had often challenged Hon.
Members, who had thrown out insinuations against the
Commission to move for a Committee to inquire, end
they themselves knew best why they had not done so.
He could not help complaining that the Commissioners
had not received that support from her Majesty's Go-
vernment which at the commencement of their task had
given them courage to undertake it. He acknowledged
the deep interest which the heads of the Government
took in the sanitary reform, but they had been too
studious to conceal their real views on the subject of
sanitary reform.
Sir B. HALL could not see what relation the
statement of the Noble Lord had with the sub-
ject before the House. At any rate his speech
had had one effect, and that was to damage
the cause which he had risen to support. The
Noble Lord had taken great credit to the Com-
missioners and himself for having reduced the per-
centage from 75. to 45., whereas, in truth, the rates had
been actually increased from 3d. to 4d. in the pound.
The chief occupation of the Commissioners had been,
in fact, more to write letters to different parts of the
country instead of occupying themselves with practical
affairs. He thought, however, after the sins of this
Commission they had great reason to complain that the
Bill to renew its powers bad been brought in at so late
a period of the year. However, in this case, he thought.
the best thing they could do would be to tie the hands of
the Commission as much as they could, and not allow it
to raise rates beyond a certain amount. He could only
apply to the present Commissioners those epithets which
he had applied to their predecessors, that they were " an
inefficient and incompetent body," and the sooner they
were annihilated the better for the inhabitants of the
metropolis.
Mr. HENLEY thought the Noble Lord opposite had
been very unfortunate in the attacks which he had
made on his predicessors, because, in fact,
figures
showed that in eighteen or nineteen months the rates of
Westminster had risen under the auspices of the Noble
Lord and his fellows from 3id. to 9d. in the pound. Hedid not think either that the Noble Lord had given ani,
satisfactory account of the labours in which they had
occupied their time. With regard to the Bill before the
House, he thought it would have been much more satis-
factory if it bad been to continue the Commission simply
for a year without any attempt to give powers to it for
rating beyond a certain limit.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was astonished at the objec-
tion made to the appointment of a Commissioner pro-
posed by the Bill, who should be salaried, and be in
constant attendance to wind up the affairs of the Cour
mission. That, in his opinion, was the chief merit of
the Bill. They were all agreed that it was necessary.
in order to bring the affairs of the Commission to au
issue, to renew it for a year, and he therefore could not
see what objectioa there could be to pass the Bill.
After a short conversation,
Mr. WAKLEY replied, and the gallery was cleared
for a division, but none took place, and the House went
into Committee on the Bill, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
Mr. WAKLEY moved the omission of clause 1, ap-
pointing a chairman.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS seconded the motion.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared--
For the clause
Against it ... ••• ... 21
Majority• The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 2, giving a salary of I,oootto the ChairMillit
Sir B. HALL moved the rejection of the clause.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it
Majority —l3
22
The clause was then agreed to.

Clause 3 was agreed to.
On clause 4,
Mr. WAKLEY moved that the Chairman do report
progress, in order to give time to the inhabitants of the
metropolis to make themselves acquainted with the pro'
visions of the Bill.
After a short conversation the Committee divided,
when there appeared—
For reporting progress
Against it ... ... 50
Majority
The motion was consequently lost, and the clause was
then agreed to.
On clause 5,
Mr. HENLEY moved to insert, "provided also that
no rate or rates amounting to more than threepence in
the pound shall be made by the said Commissioners.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the motion, on the ground that if it were carried the
Commissioners would be unable to clear off their arrears
of debt.

After a short conversation,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed to the motion.
The words were then inserted.
Mr. HENLEY then proposed another amendment, the
object of which was to deprive the Commissioners of
all power to borrow money.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the motio❑ on the same ground as he opposed the
former proposition of the Hon. Member.
After a short conversation the Committee divided,
when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it

... 22
... 33
... -11

Majority
The clause was then agreed to.
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to.
and the House adjourned at Half-past Four to Half'
past Six.

On the SPEAKER resuming the chair at hait•past si
o'clock,

Petitions against the removal of the Crystal Palitcho
and in favour of a winter garden, were presented by Sir
J. Walmsley, from residents in and visitors to the me'
tropolis, and from Kensington; by Mr. Heywood, from
Chelsea; by Mr. J. Bell, from Piccadilly and *OO3
Brompton; by Mr. Ewart, from Pimlico and the city of
London; by Mr. Geach, from Westminster, Horneastler
and Skipton; by Mr. Hastie. from Paisley; by Mr. Po'
sey, from Newark; by Mr. Rumboid, from Yarmouth!.
by Mr. Heald, from the mayor and other inhabitants of
Stockport; and by Colonel Sibthorp, from Chelsea, in
presenting which tile Hon. and Gallant Member said 130
would do everything in his power to oppose it.
A petition was presented by Mr. DUNCAN, from fie.,h"
curers in the district of Fraserburgh, in favour of coati-
nuing the Board of Fisheries for Scotland; and a petition
from Mr. A. Gordon, praying for the abolition of the
board, was presented by Mr. ANDERSON.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD gave notice that be
would, next session, call attention to the necessity 0t
rendering more effectual the parochial system of the Es'
tablished Church.

SIR T. TURTON'S CASE.
Mr. ELLIO I', in answer to questions from Lora
Jocelyn,sta:ed that a draught Act for the relief of eer-
taiu sufferers by the insolvency of Sir T. Turton wss
laid belure the Council on the 27th of December, and
was ordered to be published for general information,su
to be reconsidered in Council en the 27th of FebruttrY•