The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-04 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 4, 1856.,

No. 19,9111

PUBLICATIONS.

of the said act to the present time ; and, of the names of
all persons now eligible for appnintment to the office of
County Surveyor in Ireland.—Agreed to.

NEW NOVEL BY THE AUTHOR OF "WOMAN'S DEVOTION."
NOw ready at all the libraries, in 3 YOIS
NiARGARET AND HER BRIDESMAIDS.
By the Author of " Woman's Devotion."
" Thls tale is distimmished by the same freshness of feeling and
enthusiasm otspirit as characterised its predecessor. Unmistakeably
it is the production of no ordinary talent, and it bears a charm in Its
pages that attracts irresistibly."—Sun.
Hurst and Blackett, Publishers, successors to Henry Colburn.

Now ready, in 2 vols., 21a., bound,
JOURNAL OF
4 DVENTURES with the BRITISH ARMY,
from the Commencement of the War to the Fall of Sebas-

topol.
By GEORGE; CAVENDISH TAYLOR, late 95th Regiment.
"The evidence these volumes contain is exceedingly valuable
The real state of things is here exhibited in true colours."—John
Ball.

Hurst and Blackett, Publishers, successors to Henry Colborne

AMUSING LIBRARY.-THE BOOK OF TUN DAY

ri,HE LIFE and ADVENTURES of JULES
LL GERARD, the far-famed " LION-KILLER," comprising his
Ten Years' Campaigns among the Lions of Northern Africa. nice
2s. Undoubtedly the most extraordinary boo7t of Adventures ever
published, containing eselols and combats of a far more remarkable
character than those of Gordon Cumming and others, and possessing
all the intense interest of the most exciting romance. The work has
produced an immense sensation on the Continent, and is calculated
for universal popularity in our ewn country,
N.B. To prevent mistake, order the "Complete. Adventures of
Gerard, the Liou•Killer," published by Lambert and Co, 462, New
Oxford-street, London. Sold at all Booksellers and all Railway
Stations.

The Third Edition. Just Published, price 55., by post, free, ss. .
ON TRUE dr FALSE SPERMA.TORRHCEA,
with the View of distinguishing the Imaginary from the
Real Sufferers under this disease, and Correcting of wide-spread
Errors in relation to their Treatment and Cure.
Translated from the German of Dr. PICKFORD.
",Dr. Pickford is known to English readers by his frequent practi-
cal contributions to German medical literature. This is the first
time, he Informs as, that ho has addressed himself to the nog-medi-
cal reader. We trust this may not be the last, if he shall detect any
other equally flagrant evil which it may be in his power to cor-
rect."—London Medical Gazette. " The tribe of Quiet Sympathisers,'
and Medical Friends,' are mercilessly exposed; and if this book
could find its way into the hands of those who stiffer from the com-
ilaint of which it treats, we are satisfied that many hundreds would
be saved much needless suffering of body and mind, and what is of
less importance, though it is that which the quacks most prize—
much money ......This volume is well qualified to put an end to the
empirical sptem of treating Spermatorrhcea, and to place the treat-
meat upon a more rational and physiological basis. it is, therefore,
likely to do much good."
London : H. Balliere. 219, Regent-street.

BREWERS AND VICTUALLERS.
Mr. A. PELLA.TT moved for a return of the num
ber of persOns in each of the several counties in tI4
United Kingdom licensed as brewers or victuallers, to Sell
beer to be drunk on the premises, to sell beer not to be
drunk on the premises, and to sell spirits in Scotland
and Ireland ; stating the number of each class who brew
their own beer ; particularising each class in each county,
from the 10th of Oct., 1854, to the 10th day of Oot.,
1855.—Agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. DIMES, leave of absence was
given to Mr. Long for one month, on account of domestic
affliction.

THE BALLOT.
Mr. H. BERKELEY gave notice that on the 22d
nst. he should move for leave to bring in a bill to autho-
+le the taking of votes at elections for members of Par-
liament by ballot.
STATE OF GREECE.
Mr. EWART inquired whether any measures were
being adopted to procure the removal, by the Govdrn-
ment of Greece, of export duties and dimes, stated in the
report from our consuls as pressing injuriously on the
commerce with that country ?
Lord PALMERSTON said the subject had been
under consideration for some time, but-he could give no
satisfactory information. The state of Greece was so
unsatisfactory that the only part of it that could be tra-
versed with safety was three miles of road between
Athens and the Pirteus, which was patrolled night and
day by French cavalry. (Laughter.) -
THE BLOCKADE.
Mr. T. MITCHELL asked Viscount Palmerston who-
iher, British property to the amount of more than one
million sterling...being now locked up in' Russia, it was
the intention of the Government to continue the block-
ade of the Russian coast pending the ratification of
peace ; and whether, if the blockade was to cease at
once, an arrangement had been made to enable vessels
to enter Russian ports for commercial purposes without
risk of seizure ?
Lord PALMERSTON—The Congress yesterday ex-
tended the armistice to sea as well as laud, as the
armistice lately made known only extended to the
land operation. The signature to the treaty of
peace fortunately would prevent the realm ption
of hostilities, and, as he had said before, the
congress had extended the armistice to the sea, the block-
ade would cease. With respect to the latter part of the
question, he must for the present decline to give any in-
formation.

REFORMATORY SCHOOLS.
Mr. MOODY asked whether any list of reformatory
schools certified under the act 17th and 18th Vic., chap.
86, had been sent to the metropolitan police magistrates,
to which they might send offenders convicted by them ;
and, if not, whether any such list would be furnished?
Sir G. GREY said no such lists had been furnished to
the magistrates. Reformatories were springing up every
day, but still they were as yet insufficient for the pur-
poses for which they were proposed to meet. The
Middlesex magistrates were also constructing a refor-
matory, which, when completed, would afford the ma-
gistracy ample accommodation, and would al, o provide
them with proper places to which to send juvenile
offenders.
JOINT STOCK COMPANIES BILL.
Mr. HENLEY gave notice that ta-morrow he
shou d ask the house to recommit, pro forma, the
Joint Stock Companies Bill, seeing there were no less
HOUSE OF LORDS—(YreeTriaDiee). than 120 amendments an the paper to that bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the wool- CUSTOM-HOUSE RETURNS.
Mr. WILSON moved that the order made yesterday,
sack at five o'clock.
On the motion •of Lord REDESDALE "S
winner-
on the motion of Mr.l.elitchell, for certain returns relative
,
ton's Name Bill was read a second time. to the Custom-house, should be discharged. The returns
had been i
i orderedo e hri be
e ith ou
veryt
i, ,
e
thee consenteveein t
to
A.e of
granttheG othemver n_,-.
DELMERE FORESTS BILL. went,
and t would
the motion of Lord STANLEY of A LDERLEY at the same time he referred to the complaints that had
this bill was read a second time and passed. been male of the increased expense of printing, and re-
SECRETARY TO IRISH POOR LAW BILL. minded the house that yesterday returns had been
Ore the motion of Lend STANLEY of ALDERLEY ordered almost identical with returns that had previ-
the Secretary to the Irish Law Commissioner Bill was ously been ordered by the house.
read a third time and passed. TRANSPORTATION.
TURKISH CONSULAR ESTABLISHMENTS.
Mr. SCOTT moved for a select committee to consi
Lord SHAFTESBURY gave notice that on the re- der how far, and in what direction, recent legislation
-
turn of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, he
should move for a select committee to inquire into and the substitution of other punishments for transpor-
tation
the Consular Establishments of the Turkish Empire. , has influenced the existing amount of crime.
Crime , he said, had of late greatly increased, and it was
TORTURE IN MADRAS.
The Earl of ALBEMA.RLE rose to move for an ad- desirable to ascertain how far recent legislation,
with reference to the substitution of transportation for
dress to her Majesty for a copy of an order, dated sth of
other punishment, bad tended towards that in-
crease. The Secretary for the Home Department had
July, 1855, from C. I. Shubrick, Esq., collector and
magistrate of Chingleput, to Streevansee Row, Tehsil-
dar (native collector) of Pariapollium, a district in given notice of an amendment to his (Mr. Scott's) mo-
that co
severe directing him; under penalty tion, which he thought was too narrow, viz., for a select
of a " severe order," to collect the Government committee to inquire into the operation of the 16th and
17th Vic., c. 99, intituled an act to aubatitut© in certain
loom-tax from certain weavers in his district,
"without leaving—any—parte whaterer unrealised . e cases other punishment in lieu of transportation. In
a copy of petitions, dated Ist of Aug., 1855, to C. 11. the case..of herr tie thought that the present short. im
Shubrick, Esq., in his fiscal capacity, of several weavers the
inflicted on them, and the manner in which
of Pariapollium, setting forth the cruel tortures to which they were treated tended to make them confirmed cri-
they were subjected by the !Wive collector, Streevansee urinals rather than to reform them, and he instanced
Row, on the 27th and 28th days of July, for the non- the case of a boy he had seen in a prisoa near that
payment of the Government loom-tax, praying for house who was undergoing his 26th sentense amidst
a respite from payment on account of their 50 other boys, and no doubt one teaching the other
poverty, and in consequence of many of their wickedness. This subject required the earnest attention
inhabitants having ab-conded from their village ;, of the Government, and the investigation of that house.
a copy of the depositions taken before the aforesaid C. ' They had, it was true, voluminous details with reference
to crimp
, but it
I Shubrick, Esq.. in his capacity of magistrate, on the i was impossible for them to ascertain the
real facts of the case from them, and therefore it was
23d of August, 1855, of 14 weavers, respecting the tor- I
that he asked for this committee. Between 1829 and
tures inflicted upon them by the aforesaid Streevansee !
Row, on the 27th and 28th days of July, 1855, in order I 1854, capital
which (In 1829 the convictions for six months and under
to realise the whole of the Government loom-tax,
of averaged 50 per cent., but now they were 71 per
evidence led to the conviction of that officer : a copy
cent., for out of 23,000 convictions, from 16,000 to
the opinion, if such has been given, by the Governor and
1 17,000 underwent punishments of six months and under.
Council of Madras, or the Court of Foujdaree Adawlut,
The estimates for this year showed that the expense for
or other superior authorities, in respect to the decision 1
law and criminal jurisprudence had doubled since 1848,
of C I. Shubrick, Esq., joint collector and magistrate
having now reached 2,650,0001., and which they would
of Chingleput, in the case of the aforesaid 14 weavers of I
,be called upon to-morrow to vote. The population of
Pariapollium, by which the Tehsildar Slrevansee Row I this country increased greater than most other countries,
was sentenced to pay a fine of only 5 rupees (or 10s.)
' and ie was strange to say that our prison population in-
for having collected the Government tax on looms by
creased at a more rapid rate Oral the increase of the po-
the instrumentality of torture from the weavers in ques-
pulation. There passed annually through the prisons
lion ; and to call the attention of the house to the
. of this country as many persons as the population
of Bedfordshire, Berkshire, and Buckinghamshire
nature of the tax called " Moturpha," of which the
, put together, and in twelve years as many as
loom-tax is a part. The noble earl said he did not
, the population of Middlesex, large as it was. In 1815
think that the papers for which he moved would he pro-
brought an influx of crime on the country. In
duced, but he would avail himself of that Opp rrtunity to
1854 and 1855, in a time of war, the returns gave 101
lay before their lordships some statements of a very i lece
horrible description of the torture inflicted in the Ma- 1
`cent, .Goovveer that of the preceding ten years. Fr 0 n the
per cent. over that of the preceding year, and 71 per
dress presidency, and also to the tax called the " Motur-
pha." Since the last report was received 14 fresh cases '
of torture had occurred, t r which he had referred in his lastl
coernment returns, issued in 1850, the prison
motion. The tex called "Moturpha" was a most ins- '
apooiitan application
police.t
population
the entire given at one in one hundred and forty-
pdeephuhl as t ion
reports of
relativethe
the
effect lfe
thern reeferredtetno_tiCreol.
of the late act for the substitution of penal servitude for
qurtous one. The word was Arabic, and was indicative
of the barbarous nature of the tax, which was introduced
into India by the Mahometans. Lord Cornwallis, who transportation,.th who, he thought, was rather over san-
was well known for his humanity, when he ascer-
tained the existence of this tax, abolished it intakingt gdta hvee ticket
-of
rip-olreeats
leave
eioe
snyeelttehes alent
oftherew a
cs r jt;
tournhe i
reliedis matter. If his return was, however,
1793 throughout the British possessions in Bengal.
was ea
reformeantiO
Some years afterwards it was abolished in Bombay. It
and Government had adopted it
never existed in the district of the Punjaub, and, in• els He thouniht
t an opinion on the question. He made
f let, it was only retained in the presidency of Madras, !mistakenm n
stthkeianddvnieeses,gaf
the judges, and those who were
which had become remarkable for its tenacity concan-
r a the superintendents of the metro-
again !competent togive o
and
reetfurn of the ticket-of-leave men in
ins these most cruel practices. In July last year 14
unfortunate individuals were seized and tortured for the
non-payment of this tax. They were obliged to
tpheeriredenistt.reicolet,huesedetoohovrietoiuonnde,
atohadthethey
le
o found,numbered
an
and he
stand under a burning sun with' their bodies
bent to the ground, arid with a 121 b. weight upon r i.tsowpehreinettehnedepootelicewberilel
each of their backs, the effect of which was, as it were,
leaevrnmeel
to strike a severe blow upon the spinal cord. begged
eedbetfhore
frome it, that these
prohibitedf giving information such as he
They were pinched by two men at a time on each via-
applied to them 04.e0v without the consent of the Home
time, who had subsequently to bear the weight of one man
Secretary. The thought that, by with-
on the back of each. They were kept in this miserable
state from the hour of 8 in the morning till 10 at night, favourems name in the return that
it was a secrecy inthe man, but such was not
and the system was resumed the next day. In fact one Iwell knowne
man died in a day or two afterwards, his whole offence I the case. He was to the police, and on his re-
holding sticker-of.
turn to his own neighbourhood he was looked on with
being that of a defaulter to the Government to the
suspicion by employers, and in many instances could not
amount of ss. 2d. Tel. was continued from day to day
einpioyineet, and he was consequently thrown into
where large and populous cities, he hail recourse to his
I obtain
the money by the sale of their or
former evil habits. The hon. gentleman entered into
The Duke of ARGYLL said, on the part of the Go- some ether details with referencef to crime, and quoted
vernment, there would not be the slightest objection to
the opinion of the late i‘ . Sergeant Adams in confir-
give the papers moved for by the noble earl. A portion
motion of his opinion withr
reference to the ticket-of-
of the papers would have to be sent for to India ; and if
leave men. For his owne tipettet, he could not see why
it was the wish of the noble lord he would
transportation was abandoned. d He believed that was
produce the papers, with this exception. The
Government had the greatest wish that the office, He knew,
anovwer
tyhagtrepaetamceiswtaakeeeeotathhlioeshCedolonial-
there was considerable
system of torture should be abolished, and, notwith-
apprehension as to a large body' of men being disbanded,
standing the difficulties that stood in the way, he trusted
and that there might, consequently, be an increase of
ultimately the object would be attained. (Hear.)
crime. He believed, therefore, that the time was come
The Earl of ALBEMARLE stated that if the Go-
when they must repeal the law which did away with
vernment would admit the statements he had made
transportation. That was ,system which ought never
from papers already in his possession, he would not in-
to have been done away with. All the judges of Eng-
sist on the production of the papers he had moved for.
land, Ireland, and Scotland, and all the recorders, were
The motion was agreed to. against the law which did away with transportation. It
Their Lordships then adjourned, was said the Australian colonies would not take our cri-
minals ; but it should be borne in mind that Australia
was as big as Europe. He would read to the house one
extract from the report of Col. Jebb and Capt. Bryant,
who said that "however well ticket-of-leave men may
be placed, the majority of them do find their way back
to their old heunts and old companions. We regret
that-anything should prevent those young men from en-
tering upon a new career in a distant colony," In Bel-
gium there -was no poor law, and every child found beg-
ging was liable to be placed in a reformatory. He
believed that would be a great improvement in this
country, especially as regarded young women, and ho
thought the Government should come forward with some
measure for the reformation of children convicted merely
of vagrancy. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving
so that it
might
few select committee on the subject.
Mr. L. DAVIES seconded the motion. He regretted
the right hon. baronet (Sir G. Grey) had not framed
hi s amendment e
ed the
returns showed that, though the popuecent offi-
ciallation
doubled in 58 years, crime doubled in 64 years. He
found, by a return which had recently been presented
in another -place, that since 1853 the convicts who
bad received licenses or tickets of leave were
5,152. Out of that number 447, since receiving
their license, had been again convicted, or charged
with offences ; 179 licenses were revoked, and 554 were
withheld for misconduct ; so that, out of the 5,152
theye were 1,180 found unworthy. If he referred to the
existing nate of society, he need only'mention the dread
which every person laboured under. whose dwelling was
approached by ticket-of-leave men. He knew an instance
of a member of that house whose dwelling had been
attacked four times by ticket-of-leave men,who were driven

Dated this third day of April, IS c 6.
JAS. M CGREGOR, 10, Sise-lane,
(Witness) GEORGE J %ME+ HARRINGTON,
Clerk to the said James MacGregor.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE COMMONS.—CrEsTERDAY.)
The SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour.
LUNATIC RETU RNS.
Mr. TITE moved for returns of the total number -of
lunatics in respf•ct of whom commissions of lunacy are
now in force, and of the total amount of their annual
incomes, and the total amount of the sums allowed for
their maintenance ; for each year, from 1850 to 1855,
iwelusive, of the number of lunatics in respect of whom
commissions issued ; distinguishing those in respect of
whom commissions are now in force ; and of the num-
ber of criminal lunatics now under confinement.—
Agreed to.

FIRE INSURANCES.
Mr. OLIVEIRA. moved for ad
Lumber of returns re•
lative to fire insurances.—Agreed to.
COUNTY SURVEYORS (IRELAND).
Mr. VANCE moved for returns of the dates of the
Commissions issued by the Irish Government for the
examination of candidates for the office of County Sur-
veyor in Ireland since the passing of the Act 3 and 4
Will. IV., c. 116, to the present time ; of the na nes of
the examiners appointed in the abovenamed commissions
for such examinations ; of the names of all persons cer-
tified to be qualified by the said Boards of Examiners,
and returned to the Irish Government for appointment,
with the dates of such examination 'and return, frdm
the, paasing of the said act to the present time ;
of - the allocation of qualified candidates to -the va-
rious counties and districts, showing the aCceptance
or refusal of office, the transfer, retirement, dismissal,
or, death, with the date of each event, from the passing

away by the gentleman and his servants armed. It might
be asked how it was known they were ticket-of-leave
men. It was known in this way. They were taken up
the next day for another offence, and their shoes corres-
ponded exactly with the foot-prints at the gentleman's
house. Were they then to harbour a system of this sort,
which destroyed every comfort? These hardened men
would perpetrate every violence - if* in order to
achieve th,e object they bad in viewar e were means
of employing those men on the pile " orks, and, at
the end of the period for which they worked, they should
receive the surplus doe to them, which would enable
them either to start in some business in this country or
to go to the colonies. Under these circumstances he
thought it behoved the house to make.some provision to
meet the exigencies of this case, and he hoped the right
hon. Bart. would so enlarge his ariendment that there
need be no division on the motion;
Sir G. GREY said he would state shortly the object
which he had in 'view in giving notice :of the amendment
which he had placed on the paper; artdAe thought that the
e
impression that he had in reference toathe terms of the
•
motion had been fully confirmed by the speech of the hon.
mover, and alio of his seconder: He erzaafraid; on looking
at. the motion, that it would lead to a very vague and in-
definite inquiry, extending over a great variety of subjects
which probably would occupy thitexamittee the remainder
of the session, without producing any satisfactory results
—producing a great mass of evidence, but he doubted whe-
ther there could be any report, The terms of the motion
were to direct the select committee "to consider :low far
and in what direction remit )egislation, and he sub-
stitution of other punishment for transportation, has in-
fluenced the existing amomit of mime sow that, yin
addition to an inquiry into the, act of Vts3, which abo-
lished transportation in the greirnlajorirrotnastre-the
hon. member proposed to inquire into the whole subject of
reformatories, and in addition'to that to inquire into the
whole system as bearing on the question of the punishment
of crime, and moreover that the committee should inquire
into all collateral subjects. If the committee were ap-
pointed with the view stated by the hon. member for Ber-
wickshire, and of his seconder, it would be necessary to
inquire into the licensing system, it being stated that the
amount of crime dependd more or less on the number of
beer-houses and public-houses. There was nothing more
general than the terms of the motion, and therefore he
thought it desirable to limit the inquiry, so that the com-
mittee might address themselves to some practical object,
But in saying that, he did not in the least wish to limit the
inquiry, as the hon. member for Berwickshire seemed to,
think ho did ; but he thought it should have reference to se-
bondary punishments, and he considered that the terms of
his motion did not restrict inquiry into that subject. He
did not wish to enlarge the terms, but his object was merely
to define them. Having said thus much with regard to the
amendment, which he hoped would obviate the necessity of
any discussion, as they had all, he trusted, the same object
in view on the present occasion, he would proceed to notice
some of the observations made by the hon. member (Mr.
Scott.) It would be unnecessary for him to go fully into
the act of 1853, as it would be easier to give details as to
the operations of that act before the committee ths.riii
was to state them in the house; but with reference to the
increase of crime, which had been alluded to both by the
mover and seconder of the motion, let him say he thought
there was an exaggerated notion of the increase of crime
in the country which was not warranted by the documen,
tary evidence before them, and was inconsistent with the
facts. He held in his hand a return lately made by Mr.
Redgrave, to the Home-office. It was true this return
did not include the class of summt.ry convictions, but it
must be recoll3ctel that the increase of summary convic-
tions was the result of recent alterations in the law. Mr.
Redgrave stated the total number of commitments of cri-
minals, t ken ie reference to the circumstances to which
he adverted in the openinepart of his r: port as to summary
convictions for the last 21 years. This of course included
all the graver offences for which persons had been com-
mitted, and in taking into account the increase or decrease
of crime they ought to bear in mind, not merely the num-
ber of persons committed to prison, but the gravity of the
offences. He would not go through the return, but he
might state that while in 1834 the commitments were
22,251, in ies4 they were 29,359. But then there was an
important element that was not stated here, and that was
the increase of population during that period. He would,
however, take two 3 ears, 1311 and 1851, the two years in
which the census was taken, and he found that in 1841 the
number of commitments was 27,760, and in 1851 it was
27,910, while in the interval there had been au increase of
population in England and Wales of more than two mil-
lions. Ho had no doubt that in the last year, as com-
pared with 1853, there had been an increase of about
2,000 ; but it was some satisfaction to be enabled to
state that the increase was confined to the lower Glass
of crimes. He thought it right to state thus much
in order to show that the statements as to the increase
of crime hail beau exaggerated. And then, with regard to
the increase of expenditure for law and justice as com-
pared with previous years, hero again the hon. menabtet
omitted some circumstances which ought to be taken into
account. In the first place, there was no doubt that the
abolition of transportation, in the great majority of cases,
under the act of 1853, had materially increased the ex-
penditure, by requiring the enlargement of establishments.
A great portion of that expentatite, however, would not
be perpetual. There was no doubt, als6, Unit the reten-
tion of criminals in this country did increase the expendi-
ture. It must also be borne in mind, when they were
speaking of an increase of the expenditure on account of
law and justice at present, as compared with that it was tan
years ago, that they had taken upon the public revenue the
expense of the maintenance of all prisoners, a portion of
which was previously borne locally. He would proceed
now to notice some of the remarks of the hon. gentleman
(Mr. Scott) with regard to persons sentenced for secondary
punishment. The hon. member objected to the nita-
tion, he (Sir G. Grey) proposed as to the act of 1853, that
the operation of that act was of short duratiou, that it
might lc called an expiring act, inasmuch as transporta-
tion ceased the operation of the act as to tickets-of-leave
would gradually diminish. But that was only a small
portion of the act of 1853. The object of that act was not
so much to enable the Crown to grant limited pardon by
means of licenses granted to convicts, but its great object
was to abolish transportation except in cases in which the
sentence by law could not be less than transportation for
life or for 14 years. The great majority of cases of trans-
portation were for periods of less than 14 years. Conse-
quently the act of 1833 practically abolished transporta-
tion in six-sevenths or more of the cases liable to transpor-
tation. The result was that in 1354—he had not got the re-
turns of last year—in the UnitedKinglom there were only
399 persons sentenced to transportation, whereas in the pre-
ceding year, the year immediately preceding the act of
1853, there were no less than 3,059 persons so sentenced.
He thought that was a most important change. It was a
change which the hos. gentleman said he regretted ; it was
a change which the hon. gentleman who seconded the mo-
tion also said he regretted : and ho collected from their
speeches that they ought to inquire whether they ought not
to advert to a system of transportation. They said—at least
the hon. member for Berwickshire said--that the system of
transportation was a valuable one, and he did not deny it,
but that it was hastily abandoned. So far, however, from
its being hastily abandoned by the Government, the aban-
donment was forced on the Government. Without raising
a just cause of quarrel and contention with some of our
most important colonies, it was absolutely impossible to
continue to send convicts to the Australian colonies. Even
in Weetern;Australie there was no great facility for carry-
ing out transportation. No doubt a new colony was anxious
to obtain the services of convicts on public works, in order
to make it the more inviting to free settlers. To the pre-
sent time there had been great benefits derived to that
colony from the labours of convicts. One great inconveni-
ence always arose from the large number of the criminal
population. The convicts, either from their previous ha-
bits of drunkenness and debauchery, or that their consti-
tutions were worn out, really were not fit for hard labour,
and a large proportion of them were obliged to be treated
comparatively as invalids, and it would be imposing a bur-
den on a colony to send to it prisoners who could not labour.
He need not dwell longer on the subject of transportation,
because he did not think they were ;ikely to revert to it ;
hut at the same time, under the terms of this amendment,
it was clear the committee might, if they thought fit, con-
sider the subject of transportation generally, and they of
course might consider the expediency of the change effected
by that act. He would say a few words with regard to the
operation of the present system in this country. The hon.
member had alluded to the number of persons who had
received tickets of leave, and the number whose tickets
of leave had been revoked. The hon. gentleman who
spoke last had certainly misapprehended the result, when
he said that out of 5,152 convicts who since the passing of
the act had received licenses 1,10), or 1,20), had forfeited
them. Now that was not the case. The 417 convicts who,
after license, had been charged with subsequent offences and
convicted of an offence which entailed the penalty of trans-
portation, had not their licenses revoked. The sentence
itself revoked it. Then there were 179 who had been con-
victed of minor offences, who had bean sentenced to impri-
sonment, say for 3 or 6 months, but for a term less than
the original sentence which the convict would have had to
serve if he had not had a license. Them there were 524 in
the last item of the return who had never received their
license, and they wore not included in the 5,152 ; but they
were convicts who for their conduct in prison had had
their licenses withheld beyond the usual term. If a con-
vict did not misconduct himself he obtained a letter of
license after a certain period. A prisoner sentenced to 7
years' transportation obtained a license in three years and
a half, and a convict sentenced to ten years would obtain it
in five, and so on. '.l;,hen it was said that those tickets-of-
leave were given on proof of reformation and as a reward.
Now that was really not the fact, and there was a great
deal of mis tpprehension on that part of the subject. They
were withheld where the conduct of the prisoner was so bad
as clearly to show they did not-deserve them, but in the
majority of cases, if the prisoners conducted themselves pro-
perly, and did not transgress the prison rules, they were,
according to existing regulations, entitled to the tickets of
leave. While a convict remained in prison, removed from
temptations to which he had been in the habit, it might be,
of yielding, of course no opportunity was afforded of test-
ing the sincerity of his reformation. It was said that the
returns on this point were not strictly accurate, and that
no doubt was the case. It had been found impossible to
obtain accurate returns of all the convicts who had re-
ceived licences in the cases referred to. The object of the
licence was to enable the convict to obtain an honest living,
and the demand for labour during the last two or three
years had been so great that hardly any difficulty existed
in getting employment. The instructions given to the me-
tropolitan police that they should not interfere with
ticket-of-leave holders whom they had reason to believe
were honestly earning their living, but that they might in-
terfere if they found them leading a dishonest life, and as-
sociating with bad characters. The hon. member had stated
that it was the practice to revoke these licences on the
holders being again convicted. When they were found lead-
ing dishonest lives, and associating with bad characters, the
license was not at once revoked, but a warning was given
that it would be revoked if the holder continued in such
courses, and very often that had the desired. effect. The hon.
member had referred to another point on which be wished
to make a remark. The hon. member had stated that
tickets of leave were granted to persons sentenced to trans-
portation, and withheld from persons sentenced to penal
servitude. In comparing the two cases the hon. member

had omitted one important coneideration, which Was that a
person sentenced before the net passed 'was' Sentenced for
Wu years' transportation, but after.the act. passed the sen-
tence was four years' rifler-servitude-. -If a:ticket of leave
was given to the person bisntenced to penal servitude,
when a third of his term dr' punishment had expired, it
would be introducing that very injasticeof which. the hon.
gentleman had so much complained. In introdueing.the
bill in the House of Lerch the Lord Chetteellor explained
the change which it contemplated, awl stated that it pro-
posed, 'instead of the shorter periods of transportation, to
substitute certain periods of penal servitudeln this coon=
try, varying from fold to ten years; The intentiou of the
Government was that that part of the period of transpor-
tation which used to be passed in this country should still •
be passed in penal servitude. Parliament intended. with
regard to sentences of transportation, that tickets of leave
should be given in this country, instead of in the cold.
tries, and with regard to sentences of penal servitude,
that tickets of leave should only be given in special,
cases. With that view the act was passed, Parliament,
n 9 doubt, feeling that they would not be justified in
establishing a general systere of tickets of leave and
general licences in' the cases of penal eervitudo. With
respect to_ the difficulty cf convicts obtaining labour,
that had not arisen from the ticket-of-leave system, but
from ;he substituting punishmentin this country, instead
of punishment by transportation to the colonies. No.one.
could deny that transportation had very great advantages
to the country, and even to the convicts themselves. By
I means of transportation the country got rid eta large pee-
-1 (ion of the criminal population, with little or no chance. of
its returning, while the convicts, once in the colony, were
employed in honest labour; and in the course of time be-
calm) merged in the general mass of colonialhOeiety. It
was impossible to deny, however; that some of the colonies
had great and just complaint of • the infusion of ii crimina
population in their growing society. It was owing to the re-
monstrances of the colonists on that point that the Govern-
ment of this country, felt themselves called on to sacrificethe
advantages which thiscountry derived from transportation,
Mel commie the wishes of the colonists. Many of the holders
of tickets of leave, it was asserted, finding great di-family ire
obtaining employment in this country, were driven back
to their old associates as the only chance they had of get-
ting a living. Looking to the operation of the act of 1853,
on that most important point he had no wish to propose
any amendment to the motion that would preclude the
committee from giving that point their consideration. He,
however, dissented from the suggestion which had been
made for collecting and employing those convicts in some
one place. He believed that that would be a most inju-
rious, if not an impracti ;able, plan, and that the whole
district would remonstrate against any concentration of
ticket-of-leave labour. It would be injurious to the men
themselves to allow them to associate together. The great
-object ought to be to separate them as much as possible,
giving them every facility to obtain employment. It
would be in the power of the committee to inquire into
that point if they thought fit, but he had stated the objec-
tions be felt with regard to it. Having noticed the main
points in the speech of the hon. member, he hoped be
would be satisfied with the object which he had in view in
his amendment, but that he would limit his inquiry to the
penal system established by the act of 1853. Ile might
say that he thought it highly desirable that ticket-of-leave
men should not be allowed to return to the place where
they had been convicted. The general .practice had been
to allow ticket-of-leave holders to go where they pleased ;
but in special cases it was desirable, he thought, to limit
their tickets, and to exclude them from the particular
county in which they wore tried. He would not say more,
asit would be in his power, if the committee were appointed
to enter fully into details before it. He had explained
the object of his amendment, and he hoped the hon. gen-
tleman would be setisfied with it, and not think it neces-
sary to divide the house ou the subject. The right hon.
baronet concluded by moving a select committee to inquire
into the operation of the act 16th and 17th Viet., c. 99,
intituled "An Act to substitute in certain Cases other
Punisher:mute in lieu of Transportation."
Sir J. PAKINGTON said this was a subject of the
highest importance at all times, and particularly at the
present time, and he therefore thought the house was in-
debted to the hon. member for Berwickshire for bringing
it forward. He was disposed to agree with the right hon.
b tronet that the terms of the motion wore rather vagne
and indefinite. On the other hand, he was inclined to
think that the amendment of the right hon. gentleman was
too restricted in its terms, and that the committee ought
by all means to consider the question of the policy or iro-
policy of reviving transportation. (Hear.) He did not
recollect from what had fallen from the right hon. gentle-
man, whether ho held that the committee would be at
liberty to investigate, not only the operation of the law,
but the terms of the law itself. For his own part, he (Sir
J. Pakington) was not at all satisfied with it as it now
stood ; and if Parliament came to the 'conclusion—as it
very likely would—that it was undesirable to revive '
transportation, it might then bo necessary that the terms
of the act of 1853 should be reconsidered. Perhaps the
right honourable gentleman was hardly aware of the ex-
treme haste and precipitation with which that act was
'reseed. The session of 1852-3 was one of an unusually
protracted and laborious character; and it was not till the
month of August, when very few members were left in
town, that the act was introduced. Dr was passed, in fact,
by an exhausted house and almost without discussion. He
should be glad to know, first, whether the right hon.
baronet considered that the committee would really be at
liberty to consider the terms of the act. (Sir G. GREY—
" Hear.") He wished also to ask upon what principle sen-
tences of transportation continued to be imposed? It would
be in the recollection of the house that it was the Govern-
ment of Lord Derby which had decided that transporta-
tion, except to a limited extent, should cease. He did not
claim any merit for Lord Derby's Government on that
account. All the leading public men at that time were 1
so thoroughly convinced that transportation must be 1
put an cud to, that, whoever hail been in office, he
was coavinced that the change must have taken place.
The right hon. baronet had, however, underrated the
reasons which existed at that time for the alte-
ration. He had put it solely on the objection of the
colonists of Van Dieinen's Land to receive any more con-
victs. No doubt the feelings of the colonists were such as
could not with prudence be neglected ; but there was
another reason against the continuance of transportation
of such weight that it must have prevailed, even if the
colony had petitioned the G vernment to send them more
convicts. He alluded to the discoveries of gold in Australia.
It would never have done to continue sending out persons
as a punishment to a part of the globe, which so many wore
attracted to by the hope of gain. (Rear.) If Lord Derby's
Government had continued in office, it would have become
his (Sir J. Pakington's) duty to have devised some substi-
tute for transportation. In 1852 he accordingly drew up
a memorandum of the system which he thought ought to
be adopted, and which expressed his own individual views.
In that document he stated that he did not propose to
put au end to the punishment of transportation for the
greater crimes, but that the system of sending out several
thousand convicts every year must be given up. Ile pro-
posed, therefore, that long imprisonments should be sub-
stituted for sentences of transportation for 7 or 10 years,
but that persons who would have been transported for 10
years and upwards should still continue to be transported,
and should be sent to Western Australia. He (Sir J.
Pakington) should be glad to know how far her Majesty's
Government concurred in that view. They had substituted
imprisonment for the shorter periods of transportation, and
at the same time they retained transportation to some ex-
tent. So far he concurred with them ; but he confessed he'
still retained the opinion that transportation should be the
punishment reserved for offences next in •gravity below
thos I for which the extreme penalty of death was awarded.
In 1853 he put a question on that subject to the noble lord
who was then at the head of the Homo-office, and he was
told that no such principle would be recognised, but that
sentences of transportation should continue to be inflicted at
the discretion of the courts and of the Home-office. To take,
for example, the case of Strahan and Paul, who had been
sentence I to it years' transportation—no one could tell
whether those persons would be sent to Western Australia
or to Gibraltar or Bermuda, or whether they would be de-
teined at home in wile' servitude. The right hon. baronet
said with great truth that sentences should be obvious and
intelligible; and, without committing himself to the doc-
trine that the length of the penal servitude should. be equal
to the time for which the person would have bean trans-
ported, he (Sir J. Pakington) did think that the period of
penal servitude had been made too short. There was no
one that had had any experience in the administration of
justice but must often have witnessed painful scenes when
sentences of transportation wore passed, and he had no
hesitation in saying that a sentence of expatriation for 7
years was one that would have a much more powerful iu-
fluence not only upon the criminal himself, but upon his
relations and friends—would in short be a much more de-
terring punishment—(hear, hear)—than a sentence of
penal servitude for four years. There could hardly be a
question that a sentence of imprisonment for four years to a
young man —and nearly all those who used to be seae
tented to 7 years' transportation were young—was not an
equivalent for the old sentence, especially if even that short
term of imprisonment might be still further reduced by a
ticketeof-leave. But as they advanced higher the dispro-
portion between the old and the new scale of punishment
became still more glaring. For 15 years' transportation
there had been substituted not less than six years' servi-
tude nor more than eight. For a still grkver class of crimes
for which a sentence of 20 years' transportation was occa-
sionally inflicted, ton years' servitude was now awarded ;
and there was no medium between that and a sentence of
imprisonment for life. That, he certainly thought, was
an undesirable state of things. (Hear, hear.) . With re-
gard to tickets-of-leave, that was a system which Lord
Derby's Government had certainly never contemplated,
and of which the noble lord opposite was entitled to the
whole credit or otherwise. When it was first introduced
it was regarded with great disapprobation and great ape
prehension ; and the question had arisen that night whe-
ther those feelings had been justified by the thrown-
stances of the case. For his own part he did not knew
whether the facts that had been stated were-sufficient on
which to express an opinion. Colonel Jebb had informed
him that in the two years during which the system had
been in operation about 4,000 tickets of leave had been
granted.
Sir G. GREY here handed to the right hon. gentleman
a manuscript report which had been made to the Govern*
ment only a few days before.
n u Sir
el);
Colonel Jobb told him that only 5 per cent. had beehbfr_,
feited by the misconduct of those to whom they d
oPfAtlii
elkNe
tGs ToOf Nl e found fromben, that report
s uthat the
granted. He (Sir J. Pakington)
that was not at all a discouraging result, but it s bou e ra-
ted
membered that the system had as yet only operh upon
transportation under
the old system. (Hear.) If criminals of the gravest class
were to be retained in this country, it would become a seri-
ouspersons who had been sentenced to
question whether they should be discharged entirely,
confessed be thought that
free, or- whether, when liberated, they shoUld not be re-
tained for a time under the check which the ticket of leave
undoubtedly imposed. He was disposed to believe that it
would be better to continue the ticket-of-leave system, bat
he would extend the period of imprisonment, leaving' to
the prisoner the encouragement of knowing that if he con-
ducted himself well he would not be detained for the whole
term for which he was sentenced. .
Mr. LABOUCRERE thought- there could be no tlOubt
at:ail that the committee would have power to consider any
amendment to the existing law which might be suggested,