The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-01 00:00:00

time SIS• ; EC3tlit 2iWay6 proved the
accuracy of his reason6g, bnause an increase of taxation
had constantly produced a decrease of consumption, and

decrease of taxation had caused an increase of consump-
tion. One great evil arising from the continuation of the
malt duties was, that the population of the country were
drawn to the use of ardent spirits, which could not but he
considered exceedingly injurious. The malt tax alone
amounted to 2,400,000! ; but from the increase of con-
sumption, he considered that the diminution of the revenue
would not exceed half of that, or 1,200,000/. When all
these things were considered, he was of opinion the real
deficiency would not exceed 900,0001. Now, were malt
and spirits the only articles which it was exp ali-nt to tax ?
The Right Hon. President of. the Board of Trade had
spoken of the increased consumption of sugar ; but the
changes of pike had been so great and frequent, that it
did not appear to be fair to institute any comparison on
the subject. If any tax were wanted to make up the de-
ficiency, he should recommend them to put a tax on real
property. According to the showing of the Noble Lord,
the Chancellor of the Exchttquer, himself, the deficit would
not, these things considered, exceed 1,300,000/. Why not
glare personal and real property on the same footing? On
what grounds area it that a reduction of taxttfon was now
called for? 50,000,000/. were raised from the country by
taxation ; of these 22,000,000/. were required to carry on
the Government of the country, and Le was dispesed to think
that with that expenditure they would find no difficulty
in reductng 1,300,000/. The Hon. Member then pro-
ceeded to make some temarks relative to tie Civil List, and
to the pensions charged upon it or upon the Consolidated
Fund, anti maintained that the amount of that which was
properly termed expenditure, was 7,300,0001 .Of that only
459,000/. were devoted to the personal comfort of his
Majesty. He was satisfied that, by looking over the lists
of the several items, he had no doubt of the practicability
of making several very important reductions. There were
many persons upon the list who held two or three pension*
for very d.fferent and distinct situ itions. These pluralities
ought certainly to be removed from the lists. These pensions
had been conferred for no other reason, but that the
favoured parties, in general, possessed Ministerial infltience;
but no set of men had a right to confer a boon of 5,0001.
0r2,0001. of the public money on any man without asking
the opinion of that House. If a Committee were appointed
upon the subject, they would hare it in their power to
investigate the situation and merits of each of them ; and
the sooner they set about that object the better it would be.
Hon. Gentlemen seemed to think that when they had
voted the Army and Navy Estimates, lac., they had voted
all the great expenses to which the country was liable,
but they forgot that there were four or five millions of
expenses nit cessary fur the collection of the revenue.
It was singular, if, out of an expenditure of from
17,000,0001. to 20,000,0001., they could not save 10
or 12 per cent. He thought, therefore that it would
be perfectly practicable to supply the deficiency created
by the repeal of the taxes in question without. having
recourse to a tax on real property. In order to cover the
diminu ion, they must resolve not to proceed upon t' at
system of extrav .gent expense which had forced upon
Upper and Lower Canata a larger army than that of the
whole of the United States—a country containing fourteen
millions of people. They must not proceed tin so extra.
vacant a systetn, but adopt an economical plan, and they
would then be able to effect the required saving of
1,300 000/. It was not to be done by such a plan as
that of the Hon. Member (Mr. Attwood), who had pro-
posed to send 2,000 artillerymen to Constantinople, and,
o course, some 30,000 in,antry to protect them. This
country ought to avoid interference with the continent
altogether ; end in this way he thought the re iuction
could be supplied ; but if not, let them put personal and
real property on the same footing. They ought to take
off the duty on every species of raw material; on all means
of conveyance on railways, roads, and every means of
cummunication ; for roads had been aptly compared to
to the arteries of the human body. These points, how-
ever, would be subjects for future consideration. If the
Noble Loid should be able to carry the House along with
him, and if the House should unfortunately affirm the
Noble Lord's proposition, he (Mr. Hume) should be dis-
posed to take the sense of the House again respecting it,
when it should be put as the main question. He hoped
the House would act upon the same principle as Ministers
had acted at the India House, when the Directors said
they could not carry on the government of Indi i without
money. Ah ! (said the President of the Board of Control)
we will cut off the money, and you will then be forced to
be ecenotnical. He sincerely hoped the House would not
think of denying the vote which bad been agreed to on
Friday night. For his own part, he did not !egret the
conclusians he had arrived at,or the course he hail pursued.
—(Hear, hear.) Teat course, under similar circum-
stances, he should in no wise depart from.—(Cheers,)
He felt satisfied of the necessity of a little gentle pressure
--(A laugh)—on his Majesty's Niinisters on these subjects.
How was it, that what was good with them when on his
side of the House, was bail with them on that, the
Ministerial side.—(Cheers.) lie trusted, however, the
House would consider it was not the fault of Ministers
alone, hut that they hail to contend against a system, the
whole machinery of which was of the most complex and
pernicious character. They, however, must determine to
cut uff. every useless branch of the national expenditure
—( Hear, hear.) This, he well knew, could be done to
the extent of five millions, by strict economy and good
management, without in the slightest degree impairing the
efficiency of our necessary national establishments. Under
the ciicunistanites, he should support the motion of the
Hon. Btronet, the Member fur Loudon, and at the proper
time, if tie amendment of the Noble Lord the Chancellor
of the Exchequer was lost, he should propose a resolution
to the effect, " that any deficiency in the revenue caused
by the repeal of 10s. of the duty on malt, and the relied
of the assessed taxes, might, if possible, to tie made good
by a corresponding reduction in the expenditure of the
country; and if this could not be effected, by the imposi-
tion of new taxes on the property of the country."
Mr. G. 11EATIICOTE was well aware that there
was a great party in the country anxious for the imposi-
tion of a property tax. Considering it as he did in refe-
rence to the interest of the great agricultural body—a por-
tion of which he had the honour to represent—the most
difficult form in which it presented itself to his mind was
as regarded the question of the malt duty. By its repeal,
two classes of the country would he henefitted. The
first, all country gentlemen and all middling el ruses which
lived in the country districts. He did not think, in re-
ference to tire labourer., that by the repeal of the malt
tax, home brewing would be more extensively fo,lowed.
But he did think that great advantages would result
loin the abolition of this onerous burden, anti be had
hoped the something might hereafter be found out as a
substitute for it. But when lie came to consider at what
price this abolition was to be purchased—that if the malt
duty were to be repealed a property tax must take its
place ; when he thought how his constituents would be
fixed at the end of the year—that though their malt ditties
would lie somewhat less, they would have to meet the
tax-gatherer's demand of 10 or 15 per cent. on their pro-
fits in trade—he could not but say they would find they
had bought the concession at a great deal too dear a price.
'fire second class he alluded to, would be found in the
owners and fr, pent. is of beer-shops. Of this class he
should say little, for it was one, he was happy to think,
fur which the House and the country had no great sym-
pathy. Tile next subject was the assessed taxes, the pro-
position for the repeal of which he should at once meet
with the moat decided negative. There were in this
country 106,000 farm-houses wholly exempted frOni the
taxes proposed to be taken off, and why should he, as one
of the representatives of the farmers of England, consent
to give up a tax to which they contributed nothing ?
The assessed taxes, indeed, levied a very trifling amount
on the agricultural portion of the community, and it would
be very foolish, in his opinion, to repeal them. In the
parish in which he resided (as we understood the Hon.
Member amidst the noise in the gallery) they amounted
to nearly 120/., per annum. Ht, as tire squire of ihe
parish, paid 551., the clergyman 25/., and the farmers
the other 10/. When he allowed these taxes affected so
little the class he represented, how could he justify his con-
deet to his constituents by voting fur their extinction?
There was a deal of talk about taxation, but he could
show by cAnparitig the local arid direct taxation with the
Government itnposts, that the former much exceeded the
latter.-* (Hear.) One word on the subject of a property-
tax. If it was decided to impose one, Ite baited it would
ire carried into effect over the whole of the United
KingO'om. He considered, placed as he was this evening,
Ire ha 1 but a choice of two evils. If the question of
the malt tax were before the House without reference to
any other, he should certainly vote it, repeal ; but brought
forward as it was with a property tax as the alternative,
he considered he was best performing his duty to his con-
stituents by supporting tire amendment of the Nobie Lord
the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
air JOHN WHOTTESLEY reverted to the effect of
the property tax imposed by that HOUSC, at whiela time
lie bad the honour of a seat in it, anti contended that it
was one of the greatest difficulty. The origin of that tax
was the low state of public credit c lose(' by the system of
aorrowing. Then it was we had recourse to an impost
simply of income. Nothing ever gave greater dissatis-
tom, or cawed more vexation from its inquisitorial cha-
racter, and it it was difficult to persuade the people to bear
it then, it would be mon, so now. It was alto wards con-
verted into a property tax, amounting in the end to 10 per
Gentlemen were perhaps not aware Oust there were

the Aet of Parlittoent autlini4zing it. He
would ask if it were possilde for them, within the limit of
time they might be expected to sit, to pigs any such Act as
this, containing, as he had no doubt it must do, many
more clauses than even the original one did. (The Hon.'
Member here went into a lengthened statement of the pro-

duce from the five different schedules in the Act, to show

that the different properties tributary under it, would not,
and could not now produce anything like the amount for•
merly collected.) Under these circumstances, he contended
that this impost, which formerly produced nine millions,
would not now produce more than six, if so much; and
this too, be it recollected, inclusive of Scotland. With
respect to Ireland, all he should say was, that he would
leave it to the Stock Exchange, and the gentlemen engaged
in money transa_ttions, to say what security they could have
for lending money on the strength of a property tax.
When it was paid formerly, it was looked upon by the
people on account of the war, more as an offering than
anything else. He was convinced there would be great
difficulty in levying it, for it was a tax which the public
would be most unwilling to pay, and which they would
never consent to with anything like the cheerfulness
usually displayed in their conduct i❑ respect to national
burdens _

Mr. ROBINSON must say that he thought the spe,eh
of the fh n. Baronet was extremely inconsistent, and was
rather calculated to support the motion of the Hon.
Barone. the Member for London than to oppose it. lie

did not blame the Noble Lord for the manner in Which
_

he had treated this question. Indeed the Noble Lord had
put the question on a fair, candid, and manly footing,
when he called on the House to consider all the cnnse-

qu,nces of the vote of the other night. But then there
were so many things mixed up with that matter. First
of all, the Muse was called on to consider the expediency
of rescinding the vote of the other night in a fuller House.
Then the House was railed on to affirm or reject tit,- pro-
position of the Hn. B ironet. Thirdly, the Members
were called on toll() this with all the horrors of property
tax in full prospect ; and fourthly, the Noble Lord had
mixed up with all these other matters an intimation—he
would rot call it a threat—of resignation. Now, he must
sly that he did hot like this last part of the proceeding;
_ .

for the No`fle Lord knew very well that, in making such
an intimation, he made an appeal to the Members likely to
influence the judgment of many of them. Still, however,
he could not blame the Noble Lard for doing it ;
all he regretted was, that the Noble Lard should
have thought it necessary. For himself, his support of a
property tax was well known. He did not desire it, he-

cause he thought it in itself the best tax that could be
devised, but because he thought its adoption a less evil
than that of the continuance of some of the present taxes.
What was the situation in which the country was now
placed, when the people at large were unable to pay the
present taxes, and men of property were unwilling to have
the burden cast directly upon them? He thought that the
vote of the oV,er night might he extended front the partial
reduction to the total abolition of the malt duty, and that
the hop duty might go with it, and yet that means might
be found to meet the demands of the public service, and
to maintain public credit. He did not think that the
vote of the other night was good in itself, so much as he
thought it good in forcing upon the House to consider the
whole taxation of the country. He should not now go
into the question of the distress of the country ; but he
was not sorry that ihe necessity of considering it, and
the best means of meeting it, had been forced upon the
House. During the eighteen years of peace, various de-
vices had been adopted with a view to relieve, first one
cuss of the people and then another; and he wished to
know whether, at the expiration of this perio,i, the people
were still to be dragged through other years of difficulty
and experiment, before a property tax was imposed ; for

it seemed that to that tax we must come at last, since the
vary words of the Noble Lord's amendment only went to
say, that it could not be adopted at present. He did not
wish to force the Government or the country into the
adoption of such a tax, except so far as it seemed to
him most likely to relieve the 'Amiens of the people.
As soon as there was any reasonable expectation of the
amelioration of tie condition of the people, he should
be willing to forego the proposition ; but, till that
was ti e case, he should certainly support it ; and he
believed that the causes which affecied the prosperity and
comfort of the people were likely rather to continue than
to abate. Under these circumstance., he thought it be-
came the duty of the House to take off the taxes upon malt
and upon houses and windows, and to substitute for them
a tax upon property. He believed there would be no diffi-
culty ta hatever in raising the money to meet the deficiency,
although he must admit that he did not agree with
the lion. Member for Miidlesex, who, in his peculiar
way, proposed to take several millions out of the Exche-
quer, and to trust to savings to wake up the difference.—
(.A laugh.) He wished now to observe that, if it was
necessary, lie could show high authority for the nifnions
he held upon the subject of the property tax. He referred
to a speech of Mr. Huskisson, delivered in 1830, in favour
of a commutation of taxes. In that speech he found
the Right Honourable Gentleman thus expressing
himself:--." It is a growing opinion out of doors, from
one end of the kingdom to the other, that the labouring
classes cannot exist tinier the pressure of indirect taxation
as it now welahs upon them. If this opinion be well
founded, are we flat acting wisely in coming gradually to
those changes which may be necessary to their relief? Are
we to wait before we take steps to meet the evil, until a
mat of the power and wealth of the country is destroyed ?
If we find the labouring manufacturers and mechanics
leaving their own country for others, in which their la-
bour and their skill will be regu-ated by better wages,
are we to wait until the consequences of such a state of
things overtake us in their worst shape, before we attempt
to deal and grapple with them ? Why I hear every day
of gt•eat numbers of those classes who are out of employ-
ment, yet if I take the labour of the whole of our popu-
lation as of one man, and compare it with that of any
of er country in the same way, I find that our poor la-
bourer is infinitely worse off than any other population in
the world. It is not likely that they will sit still and re-
main contentel here with unlimited labour and very
stinted remuneration. I do not say that the ease
is as is thus stated ; but I say that there is a belief of that
description spreading itself witely over the country, and
that its truth can only be ascertained by an inquiry into
the system of our taxation." Now that was precisely the
opinion which he (Mr. Robinson entertained, and which
he wished to press on the consideration of the House. He
believed that it was now universally agreed that any tax
on a raw material was a material check upon industry, by
pressing upon productiveness in its first operations. He
knew that on the other hand, the property tax was objected
to as inquisitorial ; but he wished to know whether the
taste or delicacy of individuals, in having their property
inquired into, was to he put into competition with the mass
of suffering existing throughout the country. He
did not speak on this question as the representative of any
particular interest, for he considered it to be a great na-
tional qmstion, in which the interests of all were alike
involved. lie wished to know in what situation they
should he, if the Noble Lord's proposition should be
affirmed, and that of the Hon. Bironet tejected ? Cer-
tainly not in the same situation as on Friday night ; and
he must say that he thought the Government had bet er
acquiesce in that vote, than attempt by any subt,rluge to
• ~et rid of it. did not think that any want of confi-
dence as to the resources of the country was felt out of
doors. Indeed, the very trifling fluctuation of 1 per cent.
in the Funds, indicated no such thing, and was hardly
more than was sure to take place on a distant prospect of
a change of Ministry. He did not think that tee vote of
the other night had reduced them to the position which
the Noble Lord seemed to consider them placed in, nor
had it rendered necessary that course of proceeding which
the Noble Lord had adopted, and against which he (Mr.
Robins m) sbould certainly give his vote.
Mr. BENETT said, that he always felt he owed a debt
of gratitude to the present Administration for the noble
manner in which they had conducted themselves upon the
subject of the Reform Bill, and it was there,ite his earnest
wish never to be ca led on to oppose them ; but he must
nevertheless act in such a manner as not to 14y himself
epen to the accusation of his constituents, or of his own
conscience. He eonsiderel that the vote of Friday night
was a triumph of the popular caust•—(llear, hear)—
it
was the first working of the Reform 11.11—(Hear, hear)
it was a proof of the axe...Hence of that change which Chu
Ministers thetnse'ves had introduced into that House,
that the House were enabled to vote against an
Admibis'ration the most popular that bad ever
existed.--(Hear, hear.) lie thought that by that
vote of the other night they lea 1 done themselves
great honour, but they had done greater honour to those
Ministers—(A laugh)—who had carried that Reform
Bill, which had rendered them the representatives of the
coantry, and given them the control of that Government
which had been accustomed to control them.—(Hear.)
He regretted the proposition now made by the Noble bud,
sod his utter inability to vote with him, lie thought that
the retirement of the Ministry would be a great evil to the
country—perhaps, he might say, the greatest that could
now befal the country—(flear)—but still, let the conse-
quence be what it might, he could not vote with them on
the present occasion. It was, perhaps, true, that the
time had not yet come for them to have a property tax,
though, in his opinion, it was tie best that could be
adokited for the purpose of assisting the productive industry
„i tie country. He knew, however, that all were
not ot
• that opinion, and that consequently the time for having