The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-17 00:00:00

VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.
Mr. DUNDAS wished to ask the Under-Secretary for
the Colonies whether a recent change has not taken
place in the office of Governor of Venconver'a Island;
and if so, with whom the appointment of governor rests,
with the Hudson's Bey Company, or with the Noble
Lord the Colonial Secretary. Alse, if there are any re-
turns of the number'of colonists to Vancouver's Island,
or of the quantity of land sold there?
Mr. HAWES said the Governor of the colony had
certainly resigned, and the appointro
who
rested .e for the Colonies,
ent his en. ccer
rested with the Secretary of beet
eeatton from the
W" waiting to receive some recemrhythe
With regard
company before be filled up the stae.
eau, asYu.nable to supply
to the latter part of the le
the information, as the -eLlaetestpiaTy-le-ad not yet made their
returns on the subject.
MR. DILLON.
!flailed fish the Chen.
Mr. FEARGITS O'CONNOR
cellor of the Exchequer, did no. Mr. Dillon most hilly
d instructions of the Lords of the
eerry out the
and
,e,there there be now
Treasury to th.Perinft.ree-ventive Water Guard Service in
Ireland under his commission;
whatever against Wen, and
no charge
fully did his duty, upon what ground
that he
the Lords of the Treasury refute him life delves for
the eavture of the American smuggling brig Peru, of
New York, where such vessel was condemned, by lies. as
his capture; end what more wes reqvired of Mr. Dillon
by the Lords of the Treasury's prieted instructions to
establish his claims to such eseture than as directed to
in.sert the occurrenen in the journal of the station he com-
manded, and forthwith to officially report it for their
Lordships'infor,ratiou,
infhrmatiou, which report was neknlW.
Paged by their Lerdshipa, with a letter of thanks to Mr.
for his conduct, directing him to read such to his
crew littler his coreetand?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said this
subjetet had repeatedly been brought forward in the
Hot.'se during the list twenty !ears, and as (Alen disposed
O. That was the only answer be could give.
CRUELTY ON TH,E COAST.
Sir E. N. BUXTON drew the attention of the Hon.
Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies to a
cise of cruelty which occurred on the coast of Africa
four years ago. A negro named Earskine, who had been
in the service of an English officer named Murray, was
suspected of having stolen Geese oreauteets, and was
cruelly tortured by his master, and another officer
named Stuart. It was adterwards discovered that Eno.-
kine wet not the thief, but that the property had been
stolen by a soldier under the command of the master.
Ho wished to know whether any proceeding had been
taken against the officers for their conduct, and secondly
whether it was intended to make the negro any compen-
sation for his ill-usege?
Mr. HAWES replied that the case was now under
the consideration of the Commauder-in-Chief, who alone
could deal, with it so fir ao the oacers were concerned.
With regard to the latter question the Colonial-office
had Co porrar ff.) snake the negro any compen.setien, het
he 4 reeesde ie the occurs of kw.
I:C.ILF:tidesSTICAL TITLES BILL. .
On C. 0.; otdar te' the dey being real for res.:atm,
fi;easeed :7e to On tt,th Eccelesiastical Titles Bill,
l-ZnYNOLDS moved that the House et it rising
should adjourn road Monday.
The SYEAKERO intimated that the . Hon. Member
.Quid not make such a Motion after the order of the day
had been read.—(Hear.)
Mr. REYNOLDS—Then I more that this debate ho
now 'adjourned.
The SPEAKER—Tiae Hon. Member haring .heady
spoken be cannot move, the aajouremant of the debate.
—(Laughter and cheers.)
After the presentation of a considerable number of
petitions against the Eccletiestical Titles Bill,
The House divided on tha motion for going into Com-
mittee on the Bill, when there appeared—
For going into Committee
Against it ...
Majority for going into Committee —Si
On re entering the gallery we found that the House
bad gone into Committee, with Mr. Beaman in the
chair.
On the question that the preareb/o be postponed,
.Me. KEOGH rose to move that the preamhle should
be take's first, for he contended that at present the Haase
had not betere it the Bill by which the Government
meant to stand or fall. He thought, it would be more
desirable that the Bill should be printed in its new firm,
in order that the country might see what its nature was.
. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he could not accede to
the proposition of the Hoe. Gentleman, because it was
now some time since the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department bad stated
what alterations the Government meant to propose in the
Bill, and the House by this time was perfectly aware of
them. With respect to the other alterations, the opinion
of her Majesty's Government would depend in a great
measure ou what took place in the course of the debate;
and as far as regarded the amendments of the Hon. and
Learned Member, he (the Noble Lord) certainly desired
the Attorney-General to communicate with the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman to ascertain what their nature
was, and to express the opinion of the Government upon
them; but the result of that had certainly not been
to come to any agreement on the subject of the amend-
ments.

tho

... 116
... 35

Mr. DISRAELI said that the position of the House
with respect to the amendments
adc t
irotna i nb lyy
tbheeeNn vo th•ri ye
Pore
a
much changed since the reeentd had c- rtainly been vtry
nuch changed since the rccentdiara
Lord, that the rescript of the P:- appointing Cardinal
re
Witerean was part and parcel of
ari n 3 t the ci,,il and religious liberties clat the conspirsey
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that whactouhe country
stated WZS that it was part of a conspiracy
in
Europe,
p r e vhe
f-'nrit
i ' the extension of civil and religious liberty n
~' 7," and that it was dreaded that the influence of this coun-
try would be used to assist that extension.
Mr. DISRAELI said he was willing to accept the
Noble Lord's correction, and with that he would ray
that it was the most important statement which had fallen
from a Prime Miniater during the present century. The
question was then, whether the Bill now before them wee
calculated to meet such a conspiracy,and he thought it was a
marked characteristic of the Bill that it did not meet
the grievance which was complained of. The first thing
which they should have done would have been to have
dealt with, the arch-conspirator himself; it was the
duty of the Government to have secured his removal,
t° have Met the
conspiracy in a manner which would
show that this country was determined to baffle it. But,
insteadquit ofthl:,.sot!heavte,rBGe.overnment had adopted a course
called In the first place, they had
soaking tW the House to legteiste without
that den:muted bitghteat reference to the causes
fore which the 4 and the form of legislation there-
like petty relietoYu recommended assumed something
i Parliament" hadst43,in
persecution.—(Ffear, hear.) Now,
pported the Moeieter in securing
the removal of
ported to ba at the bel:topish Prince who was ro-
d of the conspiracy againet
civil and religious liberty,
ht under the constiniviffn:a'lticeonn'trol of the Sovereign
down a principle foe ottsgor. if the Minister bad laid
which would have
brought
ha.:icelesiastical titles from
all those who assumed el
foreign princes, without
plroate.rs, nod laid
petty mode of legislating they would hive
to this
honour of the country, baffled the IT' vindiclted the
of legislation wch?enhs
thecon-
down a principfo
conaidments
Tented a recurrence of the insult. He ne„weeeld have pre-
sideration of the various amendments beferereet°
reference to these circumstances. mete thcm with
ansund
were ccnsiderable in number, but though
two
iel'realodle
in number, they combine themselves under
There were those that took the right course, that souti:'
to connect their legislation with the cause thatt
had produced it, and which in the Government scheme
Teas studiously concealed, which recognised what had oe.
curred as a political evil, and which sought to apply a
political remedy. There were, On the other band,
!amend-
lents of a very different kind, which attempted to make
tttfficient legislation which was essentially hid:Elective,
which did not seek to connect their legislation with the
circumstances that had occasioned it,
seek towhich did not
but, on th n.e.est Y
a political remedy to a political evil,
be the eontrary,. following up what he thought to
those arnenumesEtouP,
e s policy of the Government. Now ell
and declared to which were open and independent,
they were wedertekire°,Pe and the country the reaaon why
:hit legislation, and which would
make the Bill what it'
act, intended to preee:tatitYl ought to be, a retaliatory
wdereeurrenee of a gross in-
sult—those amendments
tical remedy to a political evil,
to ala oli-
teal he should
support. The other ameneheeme.
were sanctioned
by the Honourable Gentlemen ;1:
extending wiahol the Bill
to apply to England without
Now under no circumstances would he it to Ireland..l
legislation to England without Extending'-)teni.' to land.
legislation it to I" i
The question before them was,
how they could '?'2ll •
the supremacy of the Sovereign. That was - raaaataili,
question belore them, and to answer it by sae.s.nly real
would assert the authority of the Sovereign 4;17. they
of the kingdom without exceeding it to
the ''thfror-ewPontt
be a most impolitic and injurious course to foil
Now the second class of amendments partook very tart:
of that charsicter, and therefore, in comiug into Com:.
mitten on this Bill, he felt it to be his duty to Borport
any amendment, from whatever side of the II ouee it came;
Mrspiip h. h coped with the real question ihry were called
to legislate against. He should support those
~ -. dments which, as
sons why they took the step they were now
~-z.,:. .t,, to A..... became a great nation, declared
"nsummte, and he should kuppor t all
4..it' . 1-
.
-...1-7..,;.• A"./. •

a -t-

The amendments proposed to the East Lancashire 1 those amendments which would make the Bill a retalia-
Railway and Wrexham Improvement _Bills were consi- I tory act, so as to vindicate the honour of the Crown,
dered and agreed to. bsffie the conspirators, and assert and maintain the real
PETITIONS. cause of civil and religious liberty.—(Hear, hear.)
A numbered petitions were presented in favour of the He could not, however, feel it expedient to support
Ecclesiastical Tides Bill; also others praying that the amendments the only object of which was to render
Bill might be mode mere efficient. efficient that which was essentially inefficient. The scheme
Mr. REYNOLDS presented a petition from the com- of the Government was not only inefficient, but
mittee of Irish manufacturer:, praying for some race- ' vexatious too, and calculated, he thought, to
sure to relieve the distress now existing among the poor produce general disgust and disaffection, and not at all
of Ireland, likely to vindicate the honour of the country, or to baffle
Mr. HUME presented a petition, praying for the re- the conspiracy which, according to the announcement of
peal of all duties pressing
on newspapers; also petitions the Minister, was now threatening the civil and re-
from places in Scotland, complaining of the Bible ligious liberty of the land.—(Hear, hear.)
monopoly. Lord J. RUSSELL denied that the Bill omitted
Mr. C. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from to declare the course of their legislation. He did
Everton, near Liverpool, praying fora discontinuance of not think that the question could be explained
the Regium Donum. more clearly than in the words of the amendment
Mr. LABOUCHERE prezenzed a number of petitions which was proposed by h
from Shields and other places in favour of the Coal Friend (Sir George Greyi)s. Right Honourable
The Government
Whippers' Bill. . considered that,
it would be better to adopt
Sir G. PECHELL presented a petition from Brighton the words suggested byhe nth
the Hon. Member for Midhurst,
praying for an extension of the County Courts Act. hu but instead
Mr. HERRIES presented a petition from the Cana- toincorporate
ptlbacoigitoam
sioporzeteprcelasumsboleof
clause.
If
the
oe l
Billl
than Board of Trade aged= the reduction of the timber were passed, and any person openly assumed titles in
duties,
contravention of the law, it would be the duty of the
Mr. HAWES presented a similar petition from Now Government to put the law into operation.
Brunswick.
The CHAIRMAN asked if it would be for the conve-
Lord NAAS presented a petition from the spirit thence of the Committee that the preamble should be
dealers of' Ireland, praying for ehe
.e• reeeal of the entics postponed ?
levied upon home-made spirits. Mr. KEOGH considered that the preamble should be
GUNPOWDER STORES (LIVERPC-iOL) BILL, first taken in order. The Noble Lord had said that he
This Bill was broiled,' by Si,G. GPEldreed heat had abandoned his own preamble to the Bill.
ee .in k. . 4 a , a
time, and ordered to be read a second time this day Lord JOHN RUSSELL—No.
week. Mr. KEOGH—Then the Noble Lord adopted the'
preamble of the Hon. and Learned Member for Mid-
hurat—was not that so?
Lord J. RUSSELL had said that there were certain
words proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr.
Walpole) which he intended to adopt, tut it was as a
distinct clause.
Mr. KEOGH understood the Noble Lord to say that
be intended to introduce a further recital into the pre-
L,
eosrtde
ds abi
yd thathilocpnr.efaenrrdedLt
amble. Was not that true?—(Hear.) Then the Noble
Learned
naeddo p
At iicienm
bo
ef
rwfoorrd s sug-
mid.
hurst. it was little matter whether these words were
in the preamble or in a clause. The Noble Lord de-
dared that he intended to make serious alterations
in his own Bill—(gean hear)—that he intended to leave
out the second, third, and fourth clauses; and that the
Goverment would have a Bill with one clause, and that
thine were other words to be introduced either as a pre-
amble or as a clause. Now, he put in to the Houso
, whether they (the Irish Members) were called upon to
take any one step with respect to this Bill in its present
shape, and that, too, without being informed what was
Precisely the Bill which the Noble Lord intended
to stand by.— (Lend cheers.) The Hen. Member
for Somerset, adieu had voted for the Bill, had informed
him that if there v ere no other person in that House to
neeke the matnte he would move that the Bill should be
repriencl. Before they we nt one step further ho said
the Bi.i ought to be reprinted.—(Bear, hear.) Again
he put it to the Noble Lord whether it was fair to the
Roman Catholics to persist in such a course as this.
They were bound not to allow the Noble Lord to go for-
ward with his Bill in its present shape and form. The
objections here were mode for no purpose of delay; the
object was, on the contrary, to secure a ftir and legiti-
mate progrees with the measure before them—to hove
that measure put in a clear and intelligible manner be-
fore them. It was not, he said, fair to that House, it
was not fair to the Roman Catholics, it was not fair to
the country, to attempt forcing on a discussion
,upon a
Bill which was not before them in a clear and intelli-
gible form,—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL wished, he said, to make a pro-
posal to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, which, it he
theuld relept, he (Lord J. Russell) would certainly abide
by. What he proposed to do was to leave out the clauses
to which he hat" before referred—to retain the first
clause—to adopt as a clause that part of the preamble
of the Hon. Member (Mr. Sh'alpole) to which he had
tenire referred; then he put the preamble in the state
in which the Secretary of State said ho was willing to
have it; to have the Bill printed and then to go into Com-
mittee on Monday, on the uoderstanding that there would
be no debate on the question that the Sp•:aker leave the
chair. It the lion. and Learned Gentleman the Member
for hticlieurst would also consent to go into Committee
with the Bill us the Government proposed it, then, he
said, he should be willing to take that course.
Mr. KEOGH said the Noble Lord had made what
he was not prepared to say was not a very fair propoei-
, 'don, es he endereteed the No't'e Lord merely proeceed
',test the tdhl ebeeld be rep, :wed ; )-.0 ;.h...!, c7,!1..a
before them it 'et-Atli he ern ee them to effer eller 4,11-
tiiit'.::n w w
hieh they thought we, called fee.
Lord J. RUS.ait:LL irdi the Hen. and Learned Gen-
tleman had entirety explained hie tee aring. When the
Bill ova, reprintee, the whole gantion would be open
for discussion,—(Bear, hear.)
Mr. GRATTAN protested strongly against this insane
and trumpery species of leeislation, and was proceeding
to inveigh with considerable acrimony against the Go-
vernment, when he was interrupted by cries of " Order."
He retorted by saying there was no order in his country,
and celled upon Lord John Russell not to include Ire-
Mad in the operation of the Bill. They were sending
off regiments to the Cape, but there was far more ne-
cessity to order them to Ireland to protect Roman Ca-
tholics from the attacks of Orangemen.—(Laughter.)
Mr. WALPOLE stated that he considered tne course
proposed by the Noble Lord a reasonable one. What
they, were now doing was going through the Committee
pro forma to enable the Government to reprint the Bid,
and accordingly the House would have before it the ail,
in that form by which the Government intended to abide.
—(Olean) That proposition he considered a reasonable
one. The Bill, as he understood it, would contain cer-
tain words of his preamble as its first clause; that which
was now the first clause would be the second clause, and
lir n the second, third, and fourth clauses would be
struck oat, and the Bill in that amended form would then
come before them—(llear)—leaving open to him to sug-
gest tiny amendments he might think needful. Ho ad-
mitted taste there were great difficulties as to the in-
former's clause; but he must say that he found it diffie
nult to recede to the Government proposition, and even
to his own amendment without some modifications..
With reference to an observation made by the Hon.
Member (Mr. H. Grattan), be said that if the lion.
Member would convince him that in anything he pro-
pesed there would he an interference with the spiritual
functions of Roman Catholic bishops and clergy, he
would give up his amendments.—(Hear, hear.) He
would, be declared, propose no amendment that would
interfere itdch the spiritual functions of the Roman Ca-
tholics —(Hear.)
Mr. MOORE considered it was unnecessary for the
Noble Lord in making his proposition to lay down a
condition as to the proceedings on Monday. They con-
ceived that an honourable understanding had been come
to, and the Irish Members would be the last in that
House to break it.
Mr. M. GIBSON suggested that the preamble might
be altogether omitted.
Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to know from the Noble
Lord whether he was about to take any steps with re-
spect to the appointment of legates by the Pope •in
England and Ireland, as the functions of such persons
were purely of a temporal character.
Sir F. THESIGER suggested that there should be no
further discussion. It would be open for his Honourable
Friend in Committee to propose any provision he deemed
necessary to meet the difficulty and inconvenience he re-
ferred to. If the Government did not adopt his view, then
his lion. Friend could propose an amendment of his
own. In Committee, he suggested, that in this, as in all
other Bills, the preamble should be postponed until the
clauses were agreed to.
After a few words from Mr. J. REYNOLDS,
Lord J. RUSSELL suggested that it was better to
reserve any further discussion on the subject until
Monday.
The amendments were then inserted in the Bill, and
the House having resumed, the Bill was ordered to be
re-committed on Monday.
ICOALWHIPPERS' BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of
the Coalwhippers (Port of London) Bill,
Mr. HULE asked the Ministers to consider whether
the Bill was not opposed to the whole tenor of the free-
trade policy—whether they ought not to see that thepre-
sent system was injuring the coasting trade by transfer-
ring the traffic to the carrying trade of the interior ?
The Bill was then read a second time.
COMMITTEE OF MORTMAIN.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL moved that. the 'Select Com-
mittee on Mortnsain do consist of 18 Members ; that
Mr. Monsell, Mr. Napier, and Mr. Keogh be added to
the Committee:
Mr. HEADLAM said he was the person on whose
motion the Committee was formed; as he did not direct
it against any particular religious community, he him-
self had no objection whatever.
• Sir G. GREY said that the House had at an early
period of the present session agreed. that the number of
Members forming Select Committees should be reduced
to fifteen; and he thought that that rule should not be
departed from without some special circumstances being
!feigned es a reason for that course, as the rule had been
'amid' to. 'work well in securing the punctual attendance
of Members.
weroTbo Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said there
special circumstances which called for the departure'
from
1 of the
the rule which was asked for. He was a member
1 gaged on souther Committee and and he had not been able to attend its
sittings
dhe did not know, from his being rn-
I attend it. conleerommittee, when he should be able to
the importance of the qUestion
I of mon:train te
se not
theillilieman Catholic religion, and that
1 the matter aff,c,"
rteoland as well as England, he
i thounht there o,,ght
Member Cl' tWO en the Committee.
another Roman Catholic
could
preparedn for any ono-
' Prr. J. O'CONNELL vt
It sition to hia motion.
Roman Catholics were adequately net be said that the
Committee, as the Hon, and Learned
ienrreopresented on the
You y: al (Mr. Anstcy) had express,i.deodh,:doember for
House extremely- adverse to what R6manPl '
Cathlosliica that
con-
siderei their interest to be. Of the three gentleme
whom he proposed, two were members of the legal pre2-
Catholic, tnerother
fe.ssion; ore a Roman a Protestant.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, if the Noble Lord (nerd
Arundel tang Surrey) were disc,arged from attendance
on the Committee, he saw no objection to the name of
ts substituted.
Übe Catholic Member being
Übe Esrl of ARUNDEL and SURREY suggested
that the name ef Mr. Keogh be substituted for his own,
Mr. J. O'CONNELL—Do you object to the mine of
the Hon. and LE:1111Pd Member for the University of
Dublin (i'Zr. Naples)?
Lard J. RUheneELL objected to the number of the
Members of the Committee being increased beyond
fittern.

i .‘aii:fic;;reacilf,ew words from Mr. G. A. HAMILTON and
Th House divided, when there appeared—

For Mr. J. O'Connell's motion 38
Against it ... 94
Majority ... _56
The motion was soeordingly lost.
THE METROPOLITAN COMMISSIONERS OF
SEWERS.

On the motion that the House at its rifting adjourn to
Monday next, s
Sir B. HALL wished go call the attention of the Chief
Commissioner of Sewers to a few facts of an extraordi-
nary nature with which he had become acquainted, as to
the conduct of business in the Court of the Commis-
sioners. They had jurisdiction over 8,500,0001. of pro-
perty for the purpose of levying rates, they had levied a
very large amount of rates, and their liabilities were
enormous. According to the Act under which the Com-
mission was constituted, they were bound to keep minutes
and records of all their proceedings with their seal at-
tached, and although their Court was a court of record,
he found, on applying at their office, that they had no
record in their minute-book whatever of their proceed-
ings from the 11th of October last to the present time.
Why, there was not a parochial vestry in the metropolis
that would dare to take such a step. They had levied a
rate of 110,000/. on property of the value of 4,000,000/.
sterling, and yet when he and his Noble Friend the
Member for Bath (Lord Ashley), who accompanied him
on the occasion, inquired as to the record or minute of
that proceeding, they found that no entry had been made
of it in the minute-book, and when he asked the officers
to see their manuscript minute-book, he was banded a
rough bit of paper, without any date or signature to
verify the order for levying that large rate; and the
paper, such as it was, was taken by the clerk from
amongst a confused mass of other papers, and he stated
that he did not know whether it was a minute belonging
to the proceedings of the committee or of the court; but
after some consideration the clerk concluded that it
belonged to the court. On his (Sir B. Hall's) asking
the secretary now it was possible that the business could
be conducted in such a way, that officer made the ex-
traordinary statement that the minutes of proceedings
were sent round to the different Commissioners, and
that he was obliged to trust to his memory for recording
the proceedings. That was the way the business of this
extraordinary Commission was conducted. His Noble
Friend and himself spent two hours and thirty-five
minutes in examining the mode of doing business by
the Commission, and it required the secretary, the
solicitor, and eight clerks of the board, to produce
the papers for them, in so hopeless and inextricable
and disgraceful a state of confusion were they.
Would the House believe that there was
no entry whatever in the book of a reeolution of the
Court passed within the last few weeks recommending
that a sum of 10,000/. be borrowed at five per cent. for
five years? Hering desired to see the minutes of the
Court from January Ist to the present time, the answer
of the secretary was,' that those minutes had not been
entered." He (Sir B. Hall) then desired to see the rough
minutes, and the secretary said, I will give them to
you, sir, but lam afraid that you will not be able to
make anything of them, they aro so mixed up together,"
and certainly he never saw documents in such a dis-
graceful state of confusion. He would advise any rate-
psyrr who might be then listening to him to go to the
office and judge for himself of the way in which things
were done. In order that thire might be no doubts as
to the accuracy of whet he was now stating, he read
over the statement of facts which he now laid before
the House to the secretary, asking him, at the same
time, if he (Sir B. Hall) was mistaken on any one
point. He did that in order that any contradiction that
might come might be nut against his words or that of
his Noble Friend, but against those of the secrrtary.
And yet, with such a state of things, the Noble Lord
(Lord Ebrington), in reply to a question of his a short
time hack, stated with the utmost sang froid that a
rate of one million sterlirg on one side of the Thames, and
a million and a half on the other side of the river, was
to be levied for the purposes of improvement. He must
also mention a matter which affected that House. The
Commissioners having ordered their surveyor, Mr.
Joseph Smith, to make a report on the Victoria sewer,
he (Sir B. Hall) having heard something respecting that
report which excited his attention, moved in the House
for a copy of it; but instead of the original report of the
surveyor which had besu ordered by the House to be
produced, an amended counter-report, which had been
made by the engineer of the Commission, was produced
instead. He trusted that what he had said would in-
duce her Majesty's Government to take some steps with
regard to this Commission, for it was a disgrace to the
metropolis. The manner in which the Commissioners
kept their minutes bad led to one lamentable result,
which wee this—that whereas tbo liabilities of the for-
mer Consinissionors ameueted when they came into
office to 58,195/., the liabilitict of rite preterit Commis-
sioners, owing to their miserable management, amounted
now to 135,3422—(E:5r, heer,) Hi;, Noble Friend
shook his herd; but to (Sir J 3. Hall) held the document
in his hand, and the fact upon the face of it could not be
denied.
Lord EBRINGTON—So be it,.
Sir B. HALL—His Noble Friend said "so be it,"
but the people had got to pay for it.—(hear, hear.) He
hoped the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the
Home Department would, in accords nce with the wishes
expressed by deputations at the Home-office, and by
certain of the metropolitan Members who had asked
questions respecting the Commission in that House,
bring in a Bill for the purpose of suppressing this useless,
this extravagant Commission, and of placing the Com-
missioners of Sewers upon a better tooting; for consider-
ing that there were eight millions and a half of property
upon which these men raised assessments, it was per-
fectly monstrous that their powers of raising so large a
sum should be of an irresponsible character.— (Hear.)
It his Noble Friend could deny the accuracy of these
statements let him do so; but, if he denied that, let him
recollect that he denied the statements of his own secre-
tary, not what he had read, because what he had read
had been taken down and authenticated at the office of
the Commissioners of Sewers.—(Cheers.)
Lord EBRINGTON said he had to solicit
from the House that indulgence which they always ex-
tended to those who had to answer such charges has had
been made on the present occasion.—(Hear, hear.) With
the exception of the last sentence but one of the Hon.
Baronet—that in which ho expressed a wish that the
, Commission should be placed on a better footing—there
was no other single statement which he should not be
obliged to deny, or give a different colour to, in the
course of his examination. Now, the first charge which
had been made was, that the Commissioners attended
hardly at all to the busingss of the Commission. Upon
this point he bad to referWhe Hon. Baronet to the Act,
which stated that the Commissioners should hold one
meeting in the month; twelve meetings in the year.
This was the total number of meetings required by the
Act of Parliament to be held. The Commissioners were
only twelve in number, half of whom, by the clumsy
legislation of that House, were required to be present to
constitute a quorum. The Hon. Baronet would see, on
reference, that the number of courts held last year was
92, and that the number of Committees was 77.—(Hears)
This gave an average of rather more than two courts
for every month. These courts were not primarily for
the consideration of the business of the Com-
mission; they passed those orders and decisions
which the Commissioners, after mature discussion and
consideration, had previously agreed upon; and, there-
fore, every single hour spent in these courts represented
a far greater number of hours spent in the deliberation
and consideration of the business of the Commission.—
(Hear, hear) Now, in order to give the House some
idea of the mass of business frequently transacted at one
single court, it was not necessary to state that the
printed minutes (90 and 100 pages in length) had fre-
quently to be copied with the formal minutes of the
proceedings of a single Committee, and that the same
number or pages had to be copied with the original
minutes.—(Hear, hear.) The Commissioners, in addi
tion to their other arduous duties, were a court of jus-
tice also, entrusted with very large and complicated
jurisdiction. In the courts at Westminster the few
short words of the judges " For the defendant," bad to
be translated by the efficer of the court into a longer
minute; and in like manner a long translation had also
to be made at the office of the Commissioners of Sewers.
What was the course adopted by a 'very analogous body
to the Commissioners—namely, the court of Quarter
Sessions, which consisted of a body of justices executing
important works, taxing the public, and at the same
time passing judicial sentences. The Hon. Member for
Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) knew that in the case of en
indictment preferred against the inhabitants of a parish
for non-repair the words of the court required subsea
quent expansion on its records, and he (Lord Ebrington)
was acquainted with a case in which that record had not
been entered for months afterwards, because it was found
necessary to take legal advice as to the manner in which
the record should ultimately stand. The Commissioners
of Sewers had no other object in view but that of serving
the public. They were not sinecurists receiving large
salaries, but they were a body of gentlemen, almost all
of them having other public or private business to attend
to; and he was only astonished at the large amount of
tim3 theY bestowed on the enormous mass of business
comingebefore them.—(Hear.) He had already said
that the Commission of Sewers was a newly-constituted
body acting under a complicated Act—an Act of no
fewer than 146 clauses. They had to frame a new set of
laws, for they had no precedent under the old law of
sewers to guide them. They found the clauses of the
Act gave them power to do many things; still it becatne
frequently necessary to take legal advice as to the form
in which the formal record was to be entered on the mi-
nutes. The original record was kept in manuscript, and
whenever any delay ensued from the difficulty of ascer-
taining the shape in which the formal record should be
entered it was found necessary to delay the entry of all
subsequent matters also. The consequence was, that in
cases where 100 pages of manuscript had to be inserted
from time to time, errors of the sort mentioned by the
Hon. Baronet were unavoidable, and would necessarily
continue to be unavoidable. For instance, requisite no-
tices had to be expanded in a complicated legal form,
several pages long.—(Hear.) Now,it was not true that
minutes were not kept, and carefully kept, of the pro-
ceedings of the Commission originated in Committee;
in the minutes of the Committee were to be found almost
invariably all the recommendations on which the pro•
ceedings of the Court were founded; and when these
proceedings were agreed upon, the minutes of them were
again submitted to the Commissioners for them to sanc-
tion and verify before they were finally recorded and
sealed with the seal of the Commission.—(Hear.) It
was true that the report of the Victoria-street sewer—
the report of Mr. Smith—had been received upon the
same day that the Commissioners directed their engi-
neer to inspect the sewer and prepare a report on that
some points
The engineer went to the Committee of the
he brought a roungdhsaiddl‘riahtfet
would rht.he dhitmo Smith's e
report,ult th teti em
ando n
connected ete
sub-
ject. on
Ito Committeevio
u-1d told him to revise the draft,
said that they
notreceive
receive it in its rough state,
but that they
acd on a subsequent day presentreedvliste.d
shape on acme future day, $e his
report in
its
final
accordingly,
The Honourable