The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-12 00:00:00

MARCH 12, 1851

the possessions and land revenues of the Crown has
amounted to 2,446,7851, and that out of this sum only
774,0001. has been paid into the public account at the
Exchequer; and whereas during the seine period it ap-
pears that a sum amounting to 1,672,7851. has been
withheld for charges of collection and management, and
for other expenses charged upon the said revenues, it is
expedient, with a view to place the expenditure of this
branch of the public service under the more immediate
control of Parliament, that the gross income derived
from the said revenues should hereafter be paid into the
Exchequer, and that the necessary expenses for col-
lecting and managing the same should be voted by
this House, upon estimates to be annually sub-
rnitted to Parliament by her Majesty's Government."
The Noble Lord observed that the object of the resolu-
tion was Co—this effect, that the gross revenue derived
from the Woods and Forests should hereafter he paid
into the Exchequer, and that the necessary expenses
of collection and management should be voted by
the House on the estimates which were annually
submitted by her Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.)
He deeply regretted that it had fallen to his lot to bring
forward this motion, but as the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government had not shown any disposi-
tion to take the task in hand, and as he (Lord
Duncan) had acted as Chairman of a Committee on
the subject, and become acquainted with the many irre-
gularities which had taken place in the department of
the Woods and Forests, he thought he should be want-
ing in his public duty if he failed to bring the subject
thus prominently before the House. It would be recollected
that the Noble Lord brought in a Bill last session, but it
was postponed from week to week, and at the very end
of the session was consigned to the tomb of all the
Capulets, wnere so many good things had previously
been deposited.—(Hear.) At the commencement of the
present session he put a question to the Noble Lord on
the subject of the Bill, but having received an unsatis-
factory answer, he felt himself justified in endeavouring
to apply a remedy to the existing evils in this depart-
ment of the Government. lie wished to make no
attack on the Noble Lord at the head of the department
(Lord Seymour), but to vindicate a great principle by
raising the question, whether it was to the advantage
of her Majesty's service that this department should
expend money without the control of Parliament?
The management of these revenues were entrusted to
three Commissioners responsible only to the treasurers;
and the only records of their proceedings were contained
in a report brought into the House at the end of
the session. This, he thought, was not the way to
manage that immense property. The gross amount of
the property which belonged to the Crown was, he firmly
believed, amply sufficient to maintain the Crown in due
dignity and spiendour.—(Hear, hear.) He found that
the gross rental in 1849-50 was 350,0001.; and the gross
expenditure, 192,0001. Considering, therefore, that it
required no less than 192,000/. to take charge of 350,000/.,
he thought there was ample reason for his demanding
estimates on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) The revenues
of the Crown in the department of Woods and Forests
were derived from three sources. The land revenues
consisted of household property in London (in White-
hall, St. James's, Regent's-park, Regent-street, Tower,
&c.), of landed estates in different parts of the kingdom,
and and of feefarm rents, mines, manors, &c. The Rolls
Estate, and several other branches of revenue in England
and Wales, Scotland and Ireland, were also committed
by Parliament to the custody of the Commissioners. The
great national bailiff over all this property was his Hon.
Friend the Secretary of the Treasury. Now, with ail
due submission, he (Lord Duncan) maintained that, con-
sidering the demands upon his Hon. Friend's time, he
was not exactly the person to have such a large amount
of property placed entirely at his disposal. Of much
of the property, the Committee over which he (Lord
Duncan) had the honour to preside found that no
accurate rental was kept. It appeared that no rental
had been derived from the property situated in Wales,
Scotland, Ireland, and the Isle of Man; and the via-
countial rents, estimated by one of the witnesses at
1,000/. a year, had been totally lest sight of since 1834,
and never collected. The rental had been lost, and was
only found, after a long search, in a drawer during the
sitting of the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) This fact
alone, he maintained, would justify him in bringing for-
ward his motion.—(Hear, hear.) The second branch of
the property committed to the management of the Com-
missioners was the Royal parks—St. James's, the Green-
park, Hyde-park, and various other parks in and near
the metropolis. The gross income from these, it ap-
peared, was 11,0261., and the gross expenditure 64,479/.
—(Hear, hear.) He understood his Noble Friend, a few
weeks ago, to promise that estimates should be furnished
in future with regard to this portion of the revenue; and,
if so, he thought that they would afford ample scope for
economy and retrenchment.—(Hear, hear.) The third
portion of the property under the management of the
Commissioners consisted of the royal forests,
15 in number ; the largest of which were—New
Forest, in Hampshire, 66,000 acres; and the Dean Fo-
rest, in Gloceatershire, 20,000 acres; the whole forests
containing about 110,000 acres, which had been esti-
mated by an eminent surveyor at upwards of 2,000,0001.
value. The income from this •property was stated at
36,3931., and the expenditure at 36,784/., leaving a sur-
plus of expenditure over income on a property estimated
at upwards „of 2,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) He saw
many gentlemen present who were well acquainted with
the value of land; and he asked them if it was not mon-
strous that a property of 110,000 acres, and which had
been valued at upwards of 2,000,000/., produced nothing
to the national Exchequer ?—(Loud cries of " Hear.")
He cautioned the House from running away with the
idea that this waste property took nothing from the
public purse. He reminded them that the property
had been made over to their custody by the Sovereign on
her accession to the throne, in consideration of which
Parliament undertook to vote her Majesty a civil list of
380,000/. a year. If, then, this property was allowed to
remain unproductive, it was clearly a loss to the public,
for which the House was alone to blame. If the house
would allow him, he would now proceed to state how the
property originally came into the possession of the So-
vereigns of England. The Kings of England were for-
merly supported by the soil, and not by the system of
revenue organized in later times. The estates seized by
William the Conqueror, and which formerly belonged to
Edward the Confessor, were of vast extent, and formed
the ancient demesnes of the Crown, as distinguished
from those obtained by escheat, forfeiture, or feudal de-
linquency. The ancient demesnes it was held impious
to alienate. The Crown had, in the feudal times, various
other modes of augmenting its estates, particularly from
forfeitures, and in time might have become possessed of
all the lands in the kingdom. But the Kings of England
had ever exercised their right of disposing of the Crown
lands to needy favourites and courtiers, and such aliena-
tionf necessarily made them resort to the Commons for
supplies. The Commons were in the habit, at the com-
mencement of every reign, and whenever they were asked
for a supply, to have recourse to resumptions of improvi-
dent grants, held to be granted only fur the
life of the Sovereign. Accordingly, in almost every
reign, from William the Conqueror to that of
Henry the VIIIth, there were Acts of resumption
passed, preliminary to or accompanying votes
of supply. Up to the time of Henry VIII. the manage-
ment of these lands had been such as no one could com-
plain of. Large grants it was true had been made, but
throughout the whole of the latter part of his reign large
accessions were made to the Crown property by the disso-
' lution of the monasteries. A great portion of that property
was also granted to courtiers and the needy recipients of
' court favour, and it therefore became greatly diminished.
In the time of Charles 1., a large portion of the
revenues derived from this property was applied
towards the support of his army, and afterwards
towards the payment of the Parliamentarian army
On the occasion of the restoration of Charles the Second
renewed grants were also made to those who had aided
in replacing him upon the throne. By an inquiry, how-
ever, which he had made ho had ascertained that Charles
11. still retained a revenue of 36,000/. a year. On the ac-
cession of William 111. large grants were again made to
those who had been instrumental in promoting his ac-
cession to the throne. During the time of Queen Anne
no return was made for thirty-one years; and yet it
was but justice to say that while this property was
under the direction of the officers of the Crown there
was no waste of the property and no waste made by the
assistants, But when it came under the direction of
Parliament it was immediately used for party purposes,
and he found that several grants were made, and in one
instance no less than 10,000/. had been made for one
purpose. It was not until 1798 that Parliament entered
into any inquiry at all. After that Mr. Fordyce was
instituted as an inquirer; and Mr. Fordyce, he was
bound to say, had fulfilled his duty in a most admirable
manner. In 1810 a commission had been appointed
for the purpose of inquiring into the state of this
property; and in a most lamentable condition they
found it. The first witness called before the Com-
mittee over which he (Lord Duncan) had the honour to
preside,- was the Earl of Carlisle, at that time Presi-
dent of the Woods and Forests. The Committee soon
found, from his Lordship's evidence, that the accounts
of the office were kept in a most slovenly man-
ner.—(Hear, hear.) In consequence of the evidence
adduced, a communication had been made to Mr.
Anderson, from whom a letter had been received, and he
(Lord Duncan) thought that a more disgraceful letter
had never been read to the House of Commons.--(Hear,
hear)—and he believed that he fully justified the
inquiry for which he now moved. From that
letter it appeared that no balance had been
made of the books later than the 31st of March in 1839,
so that there had been no balance whatever struck for
nine years; that no accounts whatever had been rendered
later than the 81st of March, 1843, so that there
had been no account at all for five years. Such a case
could not possibly occur in any other department, and
perfectly justified him (Lord Duncan) in asking for
this discussion.—(Hear, hear.) It should be recollected
that these forests had in the first place been appropriated
for the enjoyment of the Sovereign of the realm. For
the management of these forests three officers were ap-
pointed—one 'Tor the management of the revenues
derived from the domains, another for the nur-
ture and care of the deer, and a third for attending
to the growth of, and the profit derived from, the timber.
Now it did unfortunately happen that looking after deer
and the growing of timber was not a very pleasant oc-
cupation, and the consequence was that these duties were
dreadfully neglected. When he went down to the New
Forest a few months ago, he found matters in a state of
great confusion. The hewn timber did not agree with
the catalogues which had been sent up to the Commis-
sioners of Woods, and no wonder that on the frauds that
had been perpetrated in the management of the forest
being discovered one of the managers ran away toFrance,
another cut his throat, and a third bolted from the
forest. It then transpired that the public had been
openly robbed, and timber sold at periodical sales by
parties who had no right whatever to it. Now, if
the plan he proposed had been in operation
none of these fihuses would have arisen. Again,
in the case of the Wichwood Forest, for a long series
of years the Woods and Forests had been at law with the
ranger, Lord Churchill, and during that period not a

stick of timber was cut down. The suit abated at the
death of Lord Churchill, but cot until the public had
been put to the enormous expense of 7,013/. Walt-
hum Forest had almost entirely passed into
the hands of the neighbouring proprietors, and
the result was, there had been an end of
litigation, to the great loss of the public, who more than
once had been compelled to pay the Attorney-General
enormous fees, amounting to upwards of 3001, for doing
—what did the House suppose? Why, nothing [wire than
putting on his gown and wig.—(Laughter.) lie hoped
after this statement of f..cte the House would be
disposed to support his motion, and then there would be a
chance of diminishing, if not altogether abolishing, these
gross and crying evils.—(Hear, hear.) A Mr. Kent was
appointed to manage the timber of Selsey Forest, who
was a clerk in a solicitor's office in the City, and who
knew nothing whatever about the nature of his
duties. The consequence was that after the lapse
of six years he failed, and on inquiry being made
it was found that he had cut down 4,000/. worth of oak,
and applied the proceeds to his own purposes. This
person soon afterwards disappeared, but was ul-
timately apprehended, convicted, and transported.
Now, what was the use of talking of economy,
when such practices as these were allowed?
He did not attach blame to the individuals then holding
the offices of Commissioners of Woods and Forests, but
he did blame the system by which there never was any
calling to account of these officers on the part of Parlia-
ment, and he must again say that if estimates had been
laid before Parliament there would have been none of
these irregularities. These unfortunate persons were
the victims of a temptation they could not resist, and it
was the want of control by Parliament, of which the
House ought to be heartily ashamed, which had enabled
them to commit those irregularities. There were no
maps or surveys of the forests before the meeting of the
Committee, but all the land had been converted into
plantation of timber for the use of the navy. That being
so, let the House judge of his surprise when he moved
for a letter addressed by Mr. Barrow, the Secretary to
the Admiralty, to Mr. Milne, in June,lB33, which stated
that " in consequence of a statement of the comparative
expense of wood furnished by the King's forests and
that supplied by private contract, the Admiralty did
not think it to the interests of the public that it should
pay some 5/. a load more for that furnished by the
King's forests." Mr. Barrow stated that the cost of a
load of wood from the Woods and Forests was, indepen-
dent of all other expenses, Si. 6s. 6d. a load, whereas it
could be got from a contractor for 61.—(Hear.) This was
not stated in the reports presented to the House, and
they had not been able to judge if it was worth their
while to incur such an additional expense in the rearing
of timber. There had been no opportunity of debating
the question or entering into an examination of the true
state of things, when they only had such reports, and
which never came under the eyes of Members of the
House. The question he had now to ask was, whether
with such instances as he had given of the position in
which the Woods and Forests stood, the House would
allow the Crown estates to remain in the condition in
which they were a year and a half ago?—(Hear, hear.)
He now came to the question of the management of the
Crown estates, and he thought he should be able to show
such results as fully to justify him in making this mo-
tion. Previously to the appointment of the Committee
the present Duke of Newcastle, who had been Chief
Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, moved for a
return of the income and expenditure of the Woods and
Forests for the last ten years, which had been laid before
the Committee, and he would read the results of that
return. The gross income of the Woods and Forests
for seven years, 1842-3-1848-9, was 2,446,785/. ; the
sums paid into the Exchequer during the same
period, 774,0004 ; the difference, or amount with-
held, was 1,612.785/. The expenditure by the re-
turn appears to have been during the same period,
1,555 085/. The difference is an increase of the balance
in hand, 117,7004, to account for the expenditure of
which no subsequent returns have yet been laid before
Parliament. The gross receipt for the land revenue in
the same seven years (in round numbers 280,0001. per
annum) was 1,983,9241.; the expenditure charged on
the same (about 90,0001. per annum), 637,644/, being a
charge of 30 per cent, on that branch of the crown re-
venue, which consists mainly of rents. The gross re-
ceipts of the royal forests during the same period was
272,563/., from which, deducting 21,000/. for the mines,
they had a net produce for the forests of 251,563/. The
expenses *luring the same period amount to 274,9891.,
showing a clear loss of 23 426/. during seven years on a
property of the value of two millions. The gross re-
ceipts for the royal parks in those seven years were
191,908/., this sum, including 72,000/. secured from the
Duke of Sutheriaed for the sale of York House, applied
to the formation of Victoria Park. The expenditure in
the same period of seven years was 640,4521., showing a
surplus expenditure in the parks in that period of 449,144/.
Thus only about 32 per cent. of the whole revenue
collected reached the Exchequer in seven years, and in
the year 1847-48 only 18 per cent. of the sum
collected reached the public purse, viz., 61,000/. paid
in out of 340 599/. collected. The gross income of Woods
and Forests for 1848-49 was 347,2751. ss. Id., and gross
expenditure 207,485/. 10a. Bd.; the surplus income was
132,7891. 14s. sd. The amount paid over to the Ex-
chequer in part of the surplus income of the year
81,000/., leaves unaccounted for 51,7891. The gross in-
come of Woods and Forests in 1849-50 was 349,0971. ss.
2d.; the gross expenditure, 192,102/. 17s. I Id.; surplus
income, 156,994/. 7s. 3d. Amount paid over to the Ex-
chequer as surplus income, 200,000/. Paid over more
than received, 43,006/. When they came to look further
into the matter they came to an item of expenditure
which threw all others into the shade, and which he would
read to the House. It was extracted from the appendix to
the report of the Committee of 1848, and which contained
a return of the law expenses paid to the solicitors of the
Woods and Forests in seven years. It was es follows:
In the years 1842, 9,1321. 17s. Id.; 1843, 9,7631. 2s.
Ild.; 1844, 11,5241. I Is. 3d.; 1845, 8.2791. 3s. Bd.; 1846,
11,393/. 6s.—total in five years, 50,093/. Os. 11d.; 1847,
15,6391. 3s. 4d.; 1848, 13,5091. ls. ld.—total, 79,2414 ss.
4d. This was the amount paid to the London solicitor
alone, besides which there were other solicitors' bills in
Edinburgh and Dublin, that in Edinburgh amounting to
about 3.0001. a year, besides bills on other places. He
(Lord Duncan) asked the House if such a statement as
that did not justify his motion. The figures might be
right, or they might be wrong, but what he wanted was
that Parliament should have an opportunity of knowing
the facts. There was a lawsuit, for instance, between the
Primate of Ireland and the Crown, which lasted from
1731 to 1802, and which cost 6 602/., yet this suit failed
at last for the want of a title on the part of the Crown.
That, however, was not the only lawsuit. At this
moment there was one going on of a very serious cha-
racter between her Majesty and her faithful city of
London as regarded the soil at the bottom of the Thames.
It was commenced in 1844, and consi,erable expense
had been incurred; but what had come of it he could
not say, as no reference was made to it in the report
of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. What he
(Lord Duncan) sought for was an annual estimate of the
expenses of this department to be voted by Parliament,
and on which, therefore, the House could express an
opinion. Parliament, he maintained, could not but look
with jealousy upon a department of the State managing
its own affairs, without reference to the control of that
House. One item which he should mention would cast
in the shade all he had hitherto said on the subject.
From 1832 to 1848, a period of sixteen years, property
belonging to the Crown bad bean sold by the Board of
Woods and Forests to the extent of 696,275/., without
Parliament being consulted on the subject, though that
House was distinctly constituted as the guardian of this
property. Parliament, no doubt, was informed of the
fact; but it was not until after the sale had been made.
Of this property, to the value of 361,0001. had been sold
by public auction; but 335,000/. worth had been sold by
private treaty. Under the 10th Geo. IV., c. 50, it was
enacted that all moneys derived from the sales of Janded
estates, the property of the Crown, should be re-invested
in the purchase of other property of the same nature to
an equal amount. But, according to the statement of
Mr. Barrow, an unexceptionable evidence, at least
300,000/. of this money was invea ted in property which
was not of a very productive character. When the
House of Commons, therefore, was called on to give an
account of their stewardship to the country, what an-
swer could they make to these stetements? He (Lord
Duncan) had, he trusted, said sufficient to justify the
motion, and he should now only suggest the remedy in
conclusion. It was that the control of Parliament should
be called in; and that the management of the Woods
and Forests should be subjected to annual investigation.
In a word, that the gross receipts of that department
should be paid into the Exchequer, and no money paid
out on its account without the sanction of a vote of the
House of Commons. He had no doubt he
t,pehexshoeualdes be
the y
told
thatar these were casual expenses— the
in question; and that as they happened in an
e
unfortunate period they were not likely to happen again.
management
ths
1798,is thep
proved that such had been
Ia tl always
s. the
in 1711, la7s el
lw, ith wasthe
so in
sfwtheresewasplain and simple: public ducts-
en
revenues.
was so in 1850, on the showing of the
aan nod t
Noble Lord at the head of the Government. (The Noble
Lord read extracts to that effect from the report of the
Royal Commission of 1711; from that of the finance
Committee, June 8, 1798 ; and from the speech of Lord
John Russell, Feb. 22, 1850.) He asked the House,
under these circumstances, what reliance could be placed
on the miscellaneous estimates under the present system
of management; and appealed to lion. Members whether
he had not fully established a justification for his mo-
tion. The Noble Lord concluded by moving:—Whereas
it appears by returns laid before this House, and before
the Select Committee of Woods, Forests, Works, 84c..,
that during a period of seven years (from 1842 3 to
1848-9) the gross income derived from the possessions
and laud revenues of the Crown has amonnted to
2,446,7851.,
and that out of this sum only 774.0001. has
been paid into the public account at the Exchequer; and
whereas during the same period it appears that a sum
amounting to 1,672,7851. has been withheld for charges
of collection and management, and for other expenses
charged upon the said revenues, it is expedient, with a
view to place the expenditure of this branch of the public
service under the more immediate control of Parliament,
that the gross income derived from the said revenues
should hereafter be paid into the Exchequer, and that
the necessary expenses for collecting and managing the
same should be voted by this House, upon estimates to
be annually submitted to Parliament by her Majesty's
Government.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
Lord SEYMOUR slid he was no more responsible for
the management of the office of Woods and Forests
previous to 1849, than any other Member of the House.
, •'H arr.) He confessed, when ho entered
e hear.)
upon his duties in that year, he imagined, after
all he had heard, that he should find the
revenue arising from Crown lands very much reduced,
and the value of the land which had reverted to the
Crown seriously impaired. however, en referring to thr,
returns on the subject, he discovered that the revenues
were not in that lamentable and deplorable condition
in which his Noble Friead, had represented