The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-04 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

THIS DAY, MONDAY, MARCH 4.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER entered the House about twelve o'clock.

Mr. LYALL, the new Member for the City of Lon-
don, in the room of the late Mr. Ald. Waithman, was
introduced, and took the oaths and his seat.

Mr. Spicer, from the Chelsea Hospital, appeared at
the Bar, with the Treasurer's account of the receipts and
expenditure of that establishment.
On the motion of Mr. DIVETT, the Exeter Water
'Works Bill was read a first time.
Mr. C, BERKELEY brought in a Bill for the better
sewerage, cleansing, and draining of the town of Chelten-
ham.—Read a first time.

On the motion of Mr. WILKS, the Broxtowe (Not-
tingham) Damages Compensation Bill was read a second
time.

Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR presented a petition
from Chester, praying for an inquiry into the state of the
Church in Wales. The Noble Lord said that although the
petition wis signed by only 100 of the inhabitants of that
city, he believed it contained the sentiments, not only of
a majority of that city, but of a large majority of the inha-
bitants of Wales generally. He trusted the House would
allow him briefly to state what the petitioners complained
of as grievances. He believed that it was pretty well known
to most of those then present, that the Principality of Wales
was divided into three di-tricts. In North and South
Wales the situation of the Church was very different,—
it the North it was very rich, while in the South it was
very poor. The patronage of the Church was mostly in
the hands of I ,ymen not connected with Wales, the natural
consequence of which was, that the livings were bestowed
upon individuals who were their own friends, and who had
no feelings in common with the inhabitants, who did not
even understand the language of theWelch people, and there-
fore did not confer upon them the boon of instruction. The
petitioners further stated that two thirds of the small tithes
were in the hands of rectors and other persons, from whom
the people received no spiritual instruction. That duty
was left to the Welch curates, a body of men for whom he
had the highest respect, but Hon. Gentlemen must know
their education oinld not possibly be so good as such a
responsible duty required. It was well known that they
could expect from the Church no more than from 1501. to
2001. per annum, an expectation too limited to afford such an
education as was requisite for the discharge of such a duty.
It would naturally be supposed that where the tithes pro-
duced something like a sum of 2,0001. per aunum, the
curate would be handsomely paid out of that; but unfor..
tunately such was not the case. Few of them were in the
receipt of more than 1001., not more than 201. of which
came from the tithes, 40/. more of it was made up from
fees, while the rest was made up from the fund called
Queen Ann's Bounty ; so that the petitioners complained,
not only of not understanding the language, but that while
such large sums of money were drawn for tithes
they left the curates unprovided for. They also com-
plained that in fact they were taxed to make up those
salaries which the rectors ought to pay, having only a few
years ago been called upon to vote a sum of 14,000/. in
order to make up that fund. With regard to South
Wales the tithes were principally held by lrymen, and the
consequence was the prevalence, to an extraordinary extent,
of pluralities and absenteeism. In one county, out of eighty
benefices there were only thirty in which there were
resident clergymen. The curates were for the most part
exceedingly badly off, and some of them were so ill paid,
that they were obliged to rent farms for their subsistence.
Others again found themselves compelled to per form duty
in several parishes, some of them in as many as four; and,
as a natural consequence, the service was v-ry irregularly
performed in those parishes. The petitioner stated
that the Bi-hops of St. Asaph and Bangor were
much overpaid. He would not pretend to say what
might be the extent of the remuneration deserved
by the duty performed; but this he would sty, that no-
thing could be more pernicious than the manner in which
their revenues were raised, viz., by attaching to them the
incomes of many benefices, thereby depriviug those bene-
fices of the advantages they would otherwise enjoy. He
thought he had now pretty nearly stated the amount of
grievances complained of in the petition, but they did not
ask for a repeal of the Union.—(A laugh.) Yet they
were as much, if not snore, aggrieved than they would
he by merely paying tbeir tithes to clergymen of a dif-
ferent persuasion, for two-thirds of the tithes were paid
into hands from whom they could receive no spiritual as-
sistance of any kind. All they asked for, however, was
justice, and for an inquiry to ascertain the amount
of the revenues enjoyed by the clergy in Wales; and he
trusted that his Majesty's Government would apply
itself to redress the wrongs of a people distinguished
alike for talent, courage, loyalty, and patience.
and would do so, not under the apprehension of danger,
but under the guidance of the still small voice of justice.
The minds of the Welsh people bad been much alienated
from the established Church, entirely by the abuses
which prevailed in it. When he stated that out of 2,200
places of worship in Wales, little more than one-third
b longed to the Estaldished Chirch, thewell wishers of that
Church would see that it was high time to check she
abuses which prevailed in it. He begged pardon for hav-
ing so long taken up the attention of the House upon this
subject; but when it was considered that he advocated
the cause of a class of people but little able to protect
themselves, be doubted not the House would readily grant
him the pardon lie prayed.
Mr. W. WYNN said, highly as he respected his neigh-
bours in the city of Chester, he thought the complaint
of grievances in Wales, if any such could be made, would
come with a better grace from the parties who resided in
Wales, and who experienced those grievances. With
respect to the great tithes, it was perfectly true that in
some instances they were divided among the ecclesiastical
bodies, but in many instances they were vested in private
individuals, and they had far the last 300 years been the
object of sale and purchase. The Noble Lord was under
a mistake in some part of his statement, for he had stated
there were many instances of non-resident clergymen and
of
Annceu,rsateswho Bounty.
Tdhidattwheasdnuot b
not the
tbeing paid
eease.neou of Queen
Anne's (Mr. Wynn)
un
would certainly say he had always believed the non-resi-
dent clergy was one of the greatest evils in the Church
establishment—(Hear, hear)—and be had always in
Parliament supported the general principle of residence.
It had been urged against that preposition, that a person
who had the patronage of two livings, and wished to pro.
vide for a son or a brother, had a right to appoint to the
two livings, and unite them in one person. He had,
however, great pleasure in saying, that in one diocese
(St. Asaph) there were fever non-resident clergymen
than in any other in Wales. He regretted exceed-
ingly that non-residence should prevail to the ex-
tent it did—(Hear, hear)—but, to the honour
of Dr. Trevor be could state that that excellent individual
had reftieed to grant in any one instance two livings to
one clergyman. That dignitary said to him (Mr. Wynn)
" I have two sons in the Church, and I have stated
to them distinctly, that they may make their choice of
the best livings I can give them, but whilst I refuse to

give either of them more than one living, it cannot he
thought that I am acting unkindly when I refuse to give
more than one living to any other person." To that de-
termination did Dr. -Trevor always adhere.—(Hear.)
He certainly thought the principal point was simply that

the incumbent should understand the Welch language, as
without it he could not discharge a duty equally important
with the performance of the Church service, viz., visiting
the sick, and ascertaining their wants,—( Hear.) The

Right Hon. Gentleman was so indistinct, and so inaudible
in the gallery, as to render it impossible to report his
speech more fully.
Mr. WILBRAHAM was desirous of making a few ob-
servations ou this occasion, as lie had been particularly
requested by many Welch friends to do so. The petition
came from persons like himself, friends of the Church of
England, who did not wish to take advantage of her im-
perfections, but rather to see them cured. He considered
the picture, however, drawn of the state of the Church
of England to be an aggravated picture. It was most
important that the House should thoroughly understand
that the Welch Bishops did not understand the language
of the country over which they presided ; and it was im-
possible they could perform their duties without a know.
ledge of such language. There bad also been an exclusive
system of appointing Englishmen to be Welch Bishops.
There had not been an instance of a native Weidman
being appointed to be a Bishop since the reign of the
Hanoverian family.—(Hear.) This was a state of things
that ought not to have so long existed. It could
not be said that the reason was that the Welch were not
capable of being appointed to the Bishops' Bench, be-
cause there had been several instances of Welchmen
having translated the Bible into their native language, and
of having shown acquirements calculated to entitle them
to any situation, however high. If a knowledge of the
language was not to be required of the Bishops, at all
events no man could deny that the clergy at
large ought to possess it.—(Hear, hear.) It had
been declared by one of them that it was
repugnant to the will of God that any person should pre-
le in it language not known to
sume to preach to the people
them. The cure of souls was unintelligible to him.
According to the system that had been pursued he knew
not what was meant by it. This important fact he knew,
that one gentleman in North Wales was in posses-