The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-05 00:00:00

adjustment and settlement of tithes in Ireland, as shall by any Act
to be passed during the present Session of Parliament, be provided."
This, in effect would be restoring the 147th clause, and
placing the Bill on the same footing on which it formerly
stood, and making it conformable to the declarations of the
Noble Lord. He would remind the Noble Lord that he stood
pledged to give relief to the Dissenters. It was very well
known that the Noble Lord offered a measure of relief to that
numerous and influential body, to the amount of 250,0001. a
year, which, however, they had repudiated as unsatisfactory
and insufficient; was it then to be supposed that they would
tolerate an additional burden for the support of this sinecure
Church.—( Hear, hear.) There were many in that House
who were most anxious to support the Noble Lord and his
colleagues, and on whom he could rely if he would but pursue
so decided and bold a policy; he would put it then to the
Noble Lord, whether his present uncertain, unsatisfactory, and
inconclusive system was a wise one? The Hon. Gentleman
concluded with moving his amendment.
The question having been put,
Mr. O'CONNELL said he was not much struck by the
arguments of the Noble Lord, but he was a great deal struck
by one of his assertions, in which he stated, that whoever
voted for the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman would
pledge himself to the appropriation by Parliament of the ec-
clesiastical fund.—( A laugh.) If the Noble Lord came for-
ward now to give them to understand that he would pass the
resolution of the Hon. Member for St. Alban's, or if, in a
more mitigated shape, he would pass the resolution that had
been lately proposed by him (Mr. O'Connell), then the Noble
Lord's principle would be intelligible, and he should, with the
greatest pleasure, give his support to the resolution now be-
fore the Committee. But why, if they were to pledge them-
selves to that effect, was not the principle at once acted on.
They had had enough of pledges that were no pledges. Their
reliance ought to be not a mere opinion of the Ministry, but
solemn records of this House.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord, with the complacency and good humour which became
him, remarked on the boast of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
the late Colonial Secretary, as to his measures for Ireland.
That Gentleman certainly took credit to himself for the
purity of his intentions ; and he (Mr. O'Connell) did not
deny that they were pure. But as certainly he was
liable to the taunt that his measures were not success-
ful. He might be told that he found Ireland in a dis-
turbed state, and he left it in a worse ; that with all his
good intentions, he neither subdued dissension, nor con-
tented himself with enforcing the law as it existed; but got
from this House a most unconstitutional, and an almost un-
' limited, power. The Noble Lord—who, if he did not equal
the Right Hon. Gentleman in oratorical display, exceeded
him in good temper:4A laugh)---if he had wished to reta-
liate the smart attack made on him by the Right Hon. Gen-
teman, an attack not over considerate for Right Hon. Friends
—( Great laughter.)--might have insisted with some strength,
that when an appeal was made to the House to spare to the
people of Ireland the mischief which would result from the
. measure, to avoid the heart-burning and dissension—nay, the
crime and bloodshed—which it would give rise to; the Noble
Lord, he repeated, might have retaliated on the Right Hon.
Gentleman who made this forcible appeal, by reminding him
that in his time dissensions, and heart-burning, and crime
existed—aye, and rivers of blood, too, flowed—and he neither
succeeded in suppressing the one, nor in arresting the tide of
the other. This being the fact, had not the Noble Lord a
'right to say to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that as he found
the.experiment was a bad one, he would give it up at once and
for ever—he would alter the system totally ? Government had
failed to show that the alterations which were to be effected by
the proposed measure had anything in them calculated to benefit
in any way the people of Ireland. When they condemned the
failure of the late Secretary for the Colonies, why not try and
adopt some means of amending what they deemed bad in his sys-
tem? Why not endeavour to bring forward some measure which
would really and substantially satisfy Ireland ?--( Hear.) The
measures proposed by that Gentleman were only such as were
calculated tca satisfy his cheerers—such as would satisfy the
Orangemen of Ireland, giving them dominion by day and rule
by night. It was odd that the Right Hon. Gentleman should
be so anxious to give satisfaction to those whom he had for-
merly characterised as the contemptible remnant of a broken
faction ; but it was owing, perhaps, to the circumstance of
their being now converted into his admiring cheerers. Go-
vernment could not succeed in their efforts with respect to this
measure. They did not take up the subject in the manner in
which they should take it up, and give the right direction to
this property. It had been made an argument, that any mea-
sure affecting the Church property would eventually lead to a
Repeal of the Union. To leave unredressed the evils of Ire-
land, was the way to hasten this event so much dreaded now
• by the father of the Hannibals, who had in former time pledged
himself by a vow as unalterable as the laws of the Medes and
the Persians, to leave no effort untried to undo the measure of
the Union ; who not only vowed himself, but ended by pledg-
ing himself, to swear to the same efforts at the altar of his
country every son of his country begotten or to be begot—
(Laughter)--and evinced a disposition to endeavour to fulfil
the pledge whether the contemplated issue were an abortion
• or came to its full time. The Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex need not dread for a moment that any measure which
fla
ieny pass that House would hazard the loss of the excel-
t Chancellor for Ireland. He may rest satisfied that of
the five-and-fifty offices possessed by the family of that
Noble-Lewd, all would still continue to be held even although
the dreaded spoliation of the Church should go on.—( A laugh. )
But what was this spoliation which was so insisted on ? If
transfer was spoliation, by what title, he should like to know,
did the Established Church lay claim to this property.—
( Cheers ?) • Let them beware how they teach that transfer is
••spoliation. Their title to the property was found in the Acts
of Parliament, a good and sufficient title which none would
dispute. Though a transfer had taken place it was not spo-
- •liation it was the law of the land, but it was a law like every
- other law, capable of alteration. Formerly this property was
held by the performance of some service. Every grant made
to the church by the heads of families was with the provision
that a certain number of masses should be said or a certain
number of prayers offered up either for a certain time or for
ever, and the performance of these services was the title by
Which the property was held. But these services were not
now performed--there were no masses said—no prayers
offered up—souls were now left to shift for themselves :
no value was given, and those who had enjoyed the ad-
vantage of the former transfer now turn round, and after
century of civil war which followed upon that transfer,
• tell you that if you touch this property it is spoliation,
robbery, and plunder.—( Loud cheers.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman had spoken of the thimble rig, but in his (Mr.
O'Connell's opinion the thimble rig was at the other side,
and these things were more properly to be found at the
Derby..--( Laughter.) Such legislation as he would make on
this subject would fit the show-box, and the race-ground, and
black-legs, but faded into unintelligibility before the light of
common honesty and just. intention. Who were they that re-
ceived the tithes in England? Why, the clergy of the peo-
ple of England. Who were they who enjoyed the church re-
venue of Scotland ? The clergy of the people also. Did any
one believe that, if it were proposed in England to give to the
- Catholic clergy of England—the Catholics being about one-
- sixteenth of the nation—the property now possessed by the
Establishment, would the people agree to it—would the House
agree to it—Would the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley)
agree to it? If last year such an Act was proposed, would
not the Right Hon. Gentleman be the first to oppose the
handing over the property from those who were really the
clergy of the people to those who were not ?—( Hear, hear.)
Thed principle which he contended for was recognized in Scot-
lan, but they compelled that recognition by force. There
was no begging, or petitioning, or cajoling of Right Hon.
Friends. They argued the question with the broad sword—
beY urged it with its edge—they garrisoned themselves in
at mountain fastnesses, and, after fighting for fifty years,
hey happily succeeded in what is now called spoliation.—
( Hear.) They succeeded in making a transfer of the pro-
Perth not to the clergy of the Protestant church, not to
the clergy of the Catholic, but to the clergy of a new church,
the Church of Scotland ; and properly was it so transferred,
for that was the church of the people. Whilst this struggle
lasted what was the consequence ? Scotland, instead of adding
strength to, was then the weakness of England. The coun-
tries at war with Great Britain speculated on her disaffection ;
every invasion which threatened contemplated that quarter of
the empire, and the throne itself was insecure whilst her
ITrengs remained unredressed. When the cause of dissatisfac-
lien was removed how different was the state of things ? Scot-
and now, instead of being the weakness, is the strength, the
°rnament of, and adds dignity to the empire. They had sa-
tisfied the demands of the country, they had done her justice,
they identified the religion of the people with the religion of
the country.—( Cheers.) He did not ask so much for Ire-
of this property
land. Indeed, when he had formerly suggested that a portion
in Ireland should go to maintain those who
Ministered to the religious wants of the great body of the
people in that country, the proposition had been dis-
Vanned by millions of voices there, and he himself had :been
blamed for having made it. He had received many coin-
Ipunications on the subject, all rejecting such a proposi-
°Len ; but they were unanimous in des:ring that the burthen
Should be lightened ; and unless some means were taken to
effect that, they never could hope to establish peace in the
(I To decide upon what should be done in reference to
mats subject, there was no necessity of issuing a rambling com-
mission. All that was necessary to be known could be ascer-
tained in the space of eight-and-forty hours. Let them go
aken the plain principle, that where there was no flock to idepre-
over, and no services to be performed, there should be no
remuneration.__( Cheers.) Let there be at once some sweep-
log and beneficial alteration made, which the people would
reopt, and of which Government may be proud.-_-( Hear.)
t them not continue to bring forward unmeaning and unin-
telligible_, propositions--unsatisfactory and neutral measures,
-iwsneleh Were neither one thing nor the other.—( Cheers.) Let
In not keep the public in the present state of suspense, but
confide
something intelligible, and in which the people may
Govern
There was no necessity for the Commission to enable
•se ernment to decide upon its proceeding. Let them take
statementof of the Hon. Member for the University
Dublin, who may be said to be the advocate of
the clergy. Let them take his word, in the belief that
sum
umwould neither exaggerate, nor diminish. Take the
mentioned by that Honourable Gentleman, and then
apply the plan which he (Mr. O'Connell) proposed.
where one-fourth of the inhabitants were of
the Establis-
hment, let the living be continued : where it was not so much,
let the living be done away with ; add the into the dead weight, and lt incumbents be
diaby as fell
ofan
and it Bills. Let such a course as paid
beY aaiListseude,
which dt would at once and for ever extinguish the heart-burriings
must otherwise continue in Ireland, whils.t,. at the same-
time it would make proper provision for the religious instruc-
tion' of themembers of the Establishment. If Ministers
undertook some such plain and intelligible Measure as this,
the House would support them in it, or if obstacles were
thrown in the way, they would be supported from without by