The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

he proposed taking a vote for 300,0001. If he was dis-
appointed in that hope, he would have to ask for an ad-
ditional vote.

Mr. HUME said his communications from the Cape
led him to believe that the expense would be upwards of
1,000,0001.

Mr. ADDERLEY asked from what revenue the two
commissioners would be paid who had been sent out?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
proposed they should be paid by this country.
The nomination of the Committee on the income-tax
was postponed till this day.
On the order of the day for considering the Lodging-
houses Bill,
Lord ASHLEY said he proposed referring it to a
Select Committee.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
The House adjourned at 20 minutes past One o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 22.
The LORD CHANCELLOR tOOk his teat upon the Woo:
sack at Five o'clock.

PETITIONS.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition
from Newark against Papal aggression.
The Duke of ARGYLL presented several petitions
from places in Scotland to a similar purport.
Earl FORTESCUE presented several petitions from
places in Devonshire against Papal aggression; also a
petition from Barnstaple in favour of the Copyhold En-
franchisement Bill.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition against the
Episcopal and Capitular Estates Management Bill from
the Dean and Chapter of Wells (as we understood).
PROPERTY-TAY BILL.

On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE this
Bill was read a third time and passed.
EPISCOPAL AND CAPITULAR ESTATES
MANAGEMENT BILL.

The Earl of CARLISLE, in moving the second read-
ing of this Bill, claimed their Lordships' indulgence.
The Bill was one of a most complicated nature, on a
subject to which ho had not until recently directed his
attention, and one the provisions of which were sure to
militate against the interests of powerful parties.
He had, however, the encouragement to know that it was
one which was unconnected with party politics, and he
hoped that after giving it a second reading their Lord-
ships would consent to refer it to a Select Committee—
(Hear, hear, from the y benches)—carefully consti-
toted, when its provisions might be maturely considered,
and he hoped that it would not be thought
that by consenting to this second reading any
peer would be pledged to any ono of the provi-
sions of the Bill, or to any principle, except that it
would be advisable to introduce a better management of
Church property, so as to make it more profitable and
more available for ecclesiastical purposes.—(Hear,
hear.) It was admitted that the present management
of that property was unsatisfactory both to the
lessors and the lessees. It was stated, upon high
authority, that these estates might be let on terms
more advantageous both to the Church and to the
lessees. The Committee of the House of Commons had
reported that the system of fines was equally unpro-
fitable to the Church and to the lessee, and militated
against the improvement of the property. It had long been
expected that some legislation would take place on this
subject, and this expectation had materially interfered
with the formation of agreements between the Church
and the lessees. In 1849 a Commission had been ap-
pointed to consider the subject. In 1850 the Commis-
sioners, who were the Earl of Harrowby, the Dean of
Canterbury, the present Solicitor-General, Mr. Archbold,
and Mr. Jones, presented two reports, and the Bill now
on their Lordships' table embodied the recommendations
of those two reports. The tenure of the property held
on lease from the Church, in which he believed there
had been very little variation, at least since the days of
Queen Elizabeth, was by lease for three lives, renewable
at the termination of one life; or on lease for terms of
years, either for 21 years, renewable at the end of every
7 years; for 30 years, renewable at the end of every 10
3e
e'vecarrys ;14oryfeoarr43.0 yTeahresr,erenewable e seat
stele:
ienx pwirhaiteiohn
thoef
Church had the power of granting leases for 90 years,
but that was under special Acts of Parliament. The
rent received under these leases had always been very
small in amount, and almost nominal, and the fines re-
ceived in renewal constituted the main portion of the
property of the Church. It appeared that on leases for
lives the system had always been to assess the fines upon
a calculation of 5 per cent. or upwards, that is so as to
secure to the lessee 8 per cent, or upwards on the money
he paid down as his fine. In the case of leases for
terms of years, the intention had been to give the lessee,
when he paid down his money, interest as high as 7,8,
or 9 per cent. In the most ordinary case, which was a
lease for 21 years, the custom of most dioceses had been
to make the fine equal to a year and a half's purchase of
the annual value of the property to be let. That was
giving the lessee 7 per cent. for his money. Their Lord-
ships were aware that the landed property of this coun-
try generally sold for about 30 years' purchase, which
gave a purchaser not much above 3 per cent. Were he
to get 5 per cent. he would give only 20 years' pur-
chase; it 6 per cent. 16i years' purchase; and if 9 per
cent., only 11 years' purchase. It would seem, there-
fore, that there was ample opportunity for making
these estates produce a much larger income to the
clergy, and at the same time to put the property on a
footing more conducive to the well-understood interests
of the lessees. Of course, very different views had been
entertained as to the principle which ought to regulate
the final adjustment of this species of property. Some
contended that it should be dealt with as though the
Church had the right and power to run all the leases out,
and at the end of subsisting terms to come into the full
and undivided enjoyment of the whole property. In the
contrary view, it was assumed by others that the lessees
were entitled, if the aid of Parliament were called in, to
a perpetual renewal upon the same terms as those to
which :hey had heretofore been accustomed. Let it be
remembered in what position the parties respectively
stood. The bishops and other ecclesiastical dignitaries
could not afford to renew, for they had no other
means of subsistence. The lessee often could wait, and
it was often his interest to do so, for the church digni-
tary might be in infirm health and not expected long to
remain in the enjoyment of his office, and might be
tempted to renew on disadvantageous terms; and their
Lordships would agree with him in thinking that no class
of men ought to be less exposed to uncertainty and pre-
cariousness of income than those who filled places of
ecclesiastical dignity. Therefore without the aid of Par-
liament it would be impossible to effect an arrangement
which should materially increase the income of the
Church by taking away from bishops or other ecclesi-
astical dignitaries the temptations which they now had
to renew. The recommendation of the Commission was
a compromise between the extreme views which
he had stated, and this was the object of the Bill which
he then had the honour of introducing to their Lord-
ships. The main ground of compromise which the Com-
mission recommended was to give to the lessees a perpe-
tual right of renewal. This, he admitted, was a very
lerge concession, but he did not see in what other pos-
sible way they could materially improve the income of
toe Church than by making some terms with the lessees,
who had many ways of making their wishes and just
claims felt in Parliament. It was proposed, therefore,
that leases should have a perpetual right of renewal.
He would deal first with leases fur lives. This had
always, upon good grounds, been thought a most objec-
tioaablo arrangement. It exposed both parties to the
greatest amount of uncertainty, and rendered insurances
necessary. It was therefore proposed to convert all
leases for lives into leases for an equivalent term of
years. There were special cases which might render
it undesirable to substitute a term of years in all cases of
this description of tenure, and power would therefore be
given to the Commissioners, whom it was proposed to
appoint, to leave the tenure undisturbed in these cases

only substituting a term of years for the last life. Thus,
gradually, all leases would be under the same category
of leases for years. How were these to be dealt with?
I He would take the instance referred to by the Com-
missioners by way of illustration. A farm or estate,
worth 1001. a year, was to be let on lease for 21 years,
and, at the expiration of the first seven years, the
laisee would be entitled to have a lease for seven years
more to be added to the fourteen remaining unexpired.
It had been ascertained that the septennial payment of a
fine of a year and a halt's purchase, or 1501., was aqui-
lent as nearly as possible to a rent of 251. a year, to com-
mence, as it was said, in prasenti. If the lessor should
choose to run his lease out he would for fourteen years
receive no fine whatever, but at the end of fourteen years
would become entitled to the full enjoyment of 1001.;
and it had been ascertained that the payment of 1001. a
year to commence fourteen years hence, which was the
extreme right of the lessor, would be equivalent to 631.
a year. The present receipts of the lessor might be
computed to be equivalent to 25/. a year, and his extreme
rights to abDut 63/. a year, a difference which gave an
ample margin for adjustment; and the Commissioners
proposed to divide the advantages in the following way
—that henceforth the septennial fine should be paid to
the Church calculated at the same rate of interest as at

present, but only on a part of the annual finable value,
and at the end of the now existing term an annual rent
should be thenceforth paid to the Church equal to the
other
.half of the annual finable value. To apply the
same instance which he had already given—instead of
paying as now a fine of 1501. upon the renewal of
his lease, the lessee would have to pay 751. as a fine
upon half the annual value, and for the other half he
would have to pay 501. at thei end of fourteen years,
when his interest would have expired. Other equivalent
arrangements were proposed as alternatives, by which
either a rent of smaller amount might commence at an
earlier period, or the relative proportions of fine and rent
might be respectively increased or diminished, or the
whole might be resolved into an immediate rent to com-
mence at once. But the upshot of the whole transaction
was, that the lessor, out of the whole annual value of the
property, would receive what would be equivalent to 44/.
a year, that is, just the precise mean between 251., which
wes equivalent to the present receipts of the Church, and
651., which was equivalent to its extreme rights. He
knew the difficulty which there must be in making a
calculation upon so nice a question, but the result of the
arrangement might be stated thus—that the Church in-
stead of running out the whole lease would practically
run out the leases only so tar as half of the annual value
of the property was concerned; and instead of renewing
the fine at its present amount on the whole annual value
it would renew, on half the annual value, half of the
pre-
sent fine; and thus the Church would gain exactly one-
half of its extreme rights, and the lessee would come
into possession of one-half of his extreme claims. It was
proposed to employ the agency of the present Church
Estate Commissioners, appointed by the Act of last ses-
sion, for the purpose of ascertaining the precise rights of
fine, or the proportion of the fine to the value of the pro-
perty in each particular instance. They
t
would also be
invested with a further discretion. i
the evidence taken upon the subject thatappeared from
u therethe north
were cer-
tain districts, and more especially i
England, where, either from some extreme notion of
of an
Old right, or trona invariable usage, the lone had been

led to rely so confidently on the continuance of the
present terms of renewal that the result, paradoxical us
it might sound, had been arrived at, that a twenty-one
years' lease was often of the same value in the market
'as the fee simple of the estate. In that case it would
be the province of the Commissioners to define the dis-
tricts where in consequence of an invariable usage the
lease would be suffered to run out on one-third instead
of one-half of the entire term. Property in houses did
not stand on the same footing as property in land; but
it was proposed to place it in a nearly equivalent posi-
tion. From the deteriorating nature of house property
it would be hardly feasible to make an addition as a re- I
newed rent of half of the present value of the property
at the termination of the lease; and, therefore, it was
proposed, with respect to house property, to give the
right of perpetual renewal on the present amount of the
fines, but to impose on the lessee an additional rent,
equal to half of the new right he would thug have
acquired, and so to divide the advantage as in other cases
in equal proportions between the lessor and lessee. But
there was one species of property which it was not pro-
posed to put on the same footing as any of the others to
which he had referred, and that was the property in
tithe-rent charges. It was proposed, with respect to
tithe-rent charges, to let them run out. The Commis-
sioners were of opinion that that property stood in quite
a different position from any other description of pro-
perty, inasmuch as in the cases of tithe-rent charges
there had been no improvement in past times, and there
was no future opening for improvement. There was in
that case no plea of lands being intermixed with other
freeholds; and in general there was no circumstance of
association or attachment which connected a person with
a tithe-rent charge, or with property in land. With re-
spect to manorial rights, he had to observe that they
could hardly be looked upon as every fitting ecclesiastical
appanage. In that case it was proposed to let the leases
run out, or to have them put sip for immediate sale. Pro-
visions were introduced for facilitating the enfranchise-
ment of copyholds ; and any money arising from sales,
exchanges, or enfranchisements would be vested in the
Church Estate Commissioners ; first, for the purpose of
satisfying the exigencies of the Act; and next, for the
purpose of being applied to the common fund for eccle-
siastical purposes. He had not yet made any re-
ference to the case of timber. There was, perhaps, no
species of ecclesiastical property which suffered from
the existing arrangements more than timber, for it fre-
quently happened that the lessee bad no right to cut
and that the lessor had no right to enter to cut. The con-
sequence was that the timber on the Church estates was
generally found in a very bad and wasteful condition.
It was therefore proposed that, on the payment of the
proper value, the timber should be entirely reserved to
the lessee. There were in the Bill provisions for facili-
tating arrangements between the lessor and the lessee,
with a view to promote any improvement which would
require an unusual outlay. But with respect to the ordi-
nary valuations, they would be taken at the termination,
not as at present, of every seven years, but at the termi-
nation of every twenty-one years. He could not but
think that that alteration would be productive of mate-
rial benefit to the lessee. It would afford scope for the
improvement of property, without depriving the Church
of any ultimate advantage which might accrue from that
improvement. That provision rescued the Bill, in his
opinion, from the charge of alienating the property of
the Church. He believed, on the contrary, that a greatly
increased income would be secured to the Church by
the measure, while it would give great scope for
the accomplishment of the most desirable Church
purposes. Those were the material provisions in the
Bill with regard to the relations between the Church
and the lessee, and he looked upon them as the
most important portions of the measure. It com-
prised, however, other arrangements not wanting in
importance upon the general management of Church
estates. These arrangements were proposed chiefly
with the view of giving effect to the intention of the
Legislature that bishops, and deans, and chapters should
have fixed instead of fluctuating incomes. That inten-
tion had hitherto been very imperfectly realised; for
some bishops bad received less than had been intended
for them, and others had received more. The estates
would be vested in the Church Estate Commissioners,
and the bishops would receive the fixed incomes allotted
to them by law, until under the operation of the Bill an
endowment of and equivalent to the incomes so fixed
could be settled on them. In order to provide for the
immediate wants which would arise under the Bill, a
power would be given to the Commissioners to borrow
money on debentures. He repeated what he had stated
at the commencement of his address, that he subadtted
the Bill in order that it might receive a full and fair
consideration. If the Bill were read a second time he
proposed that it should bo referred to a Select Com-
mittee, by whom its details would be duly considered.
It was not for him to presume to give advice to the Right
Rev. Prelates as to the course which they might think
proper to pursue upon that occasion; but he could not
help stating his belief that it would be impossible to carry
through Parliament as it was at present constituted, or
as it was ever likely to be constituted, any measure for
enabling the heads of the Church to run out their leases
and to enter into the full enjoyment of the whole of these
estates. He should say, too, that he very much doubted ,
even if such a measure could be carried, whether it
would be fitting for bishops and other ecclesiastical dig-
nitaries to be involved in all the labour and difficulty of
letting and managing landed property. Ile believed that
the Church would receive a large increase of income
from the passing of that measure; he did not like to
commit himself to any precise calculation as to what
might be the amount of that increase; but he should
state that persons peculiarly conversant with the subject
had estimated it at double or treble the sum at present
received. Linder those circumstances he would respect-
fully submit to the Right Rev. Prelates whether they
could better consult for the promotion of the important
interests committed to their care, than by giving to the
Bill a careful and courteous, but at the same time a most
searching and scrutinising consideration. He felt con-
fident in the purity of the motives with which the Bill
had been brought forward; he felt confident in the nature
of the measure itself, and in the advantages it was cal-
culated to produce; he felt confident, too, in the charac-
ter of those to whom ho had the honour of submitting
it; and he had, therefore, no hesitation in calling upon
their Lordships to give it a second reading.—(Hear.)
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said be felt
much pained at finding himself compelled to cast any
disparagement upon a measure which had been proposed
by her Majesty's Government, with a view, ho was sure,
to promote the best interests of the Church, and which
had been brought under their notice with so much can-
dour and ability by the Noble Earl. Ho felt convinced
that the Commissioners on whose report the Bill was
founded had been animated by a sincere desire to ensure
the spiritual welfare of the community at large. But he
was compelled by a paramount sense of duty to with-
hold his assent from what appeared to him to be tho
leading principle of the measure. He considered, like
many of his Right Rev. Brethren around him, that the
Bill as it then stood would be tantamount to an alien-
ation of the remaining property of the Church. They
had received that property from their predecessors, and
they felt bound to transmit it, if possible, to their suc-
cessors. The right of perpetual renewal which it was
;proposed to give to the present lessees, appeared to him
.to differ but little from the right of unlimited pos-
session, and the heads of the Church, by giving that
right, would, in his opinion, be abandoning the trust
committed to their charge. The Noble Earl had,
however, to a certain extent, relieved him from the
uneasiness ho should otherwise feel at finding that
measure read a second time, when he had told them ho
considered that those Noble Lords who might support
the second reading would not be pledged to any thing
more than a fair consideration of the whole of that sub-
ject. If' he could feel assured that that were the case, he
should feel very considerably relieved. But he had been
informed that, according to the usage of Parliament,
when a measure which had been read a second time was
referred to a Select Committee, the Committee could
not deal with its principle, and was merely empowered
to consider the clauses by which that principle was to be
carried into effect. Now, if that were the case, he should
feel it his duty to express his opposition to the second
reading of the measure. He perfectly agreed vrit
he
Noble Earl that matters could not and ought n 0,,. to
tin
re-
main as they were at present. He believed the e
system was vicious in principle and objectionableixnlbpiracg-
tice, and that it bad no other recommendation
of than that
it had been in operation for a period 300 years.
Nothing could give him greater pleasure than to support
a measure which would contribute to the improvement of
the management of Church property withouta
dimi-
nution of that property; but ho could not consientiously
feel that that was the character of the measure then
under their consideration.
The Bishop of LONDON
said he hoped some Noble
rules of the House would ex-
plain to them how far Lord acquainted with h
the
ee
house would pledge itself to
the principle of the Bill by supporting its second reading.
He entirely objected to the principle of giving to lessees
the right of perpetual renewal. He believed that lessees
had no such right equitably, legally, or morally. The
lessees had no right to demand more than the value of
their interest in the property. That interest might, he
believed, be easily estimated, and to it, or to its amount
only, had they any legitimate claim. He 'wished it to be
understood that if ho assented to the second reading of
the Bill he did not pledge himself to the adoption of the
principle laid down in it upon that subject. No one was
more desirous than he was of seeing the property of the
Church made available for the removal of spiritual des-
titution; but that measure would diminish the resources
of the Church, and would rob her of the means of pro-
viding for that destitution in future times. The heads of
the Church held their property for the people of this
country, and they had no right to give up that property.
He earnestly wished to see the whole of that subject
referred to a Select Committee of their Lordships, by
whom it would be, he was sure, most carefully and
impartially considered. But he hoped their Lordships
would pause before they sanctioned the principle of a
right to a perpetual renewal of leases of Church property.
The Duke of RICHMOND said ho thought that Bill
was much more against the lessees than against the les-
sors. But he was ready to assent to the second reading
of the measure on the distinct understanding that
.the
Select Committee would not be debarred from tohewle
rightbo
of instituting a full and fair inquiry in
subject. The lessees of Church propertytoint the
England
Were not by any means placed in so favourablen. dThe Act
po-
sition as their brother lessees in Ire
of Parliament in force in Ireland contained a clause,
under which the lessees could insist on a renewal of
the leases. That was what ought to have been done
in this country, and then
they would not have had
those
constant discussions upon that subject. There were
many details of the Bill to which ho very much ob-
jected; but he thought that they ought not to refuse to
take the whole question into their consideration.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCII said it appeared to him
that those ecclesiastical dignitaries who were so deeply
interested in that matter ought to be allowed to be
heard by counsel against the Bill, lie had himself
presented a petition the other day from the Dean and
Chapter of Westminster, praying that that privilege

might be granted to them. It was a very convenient
thing in that as well as the other House of Parlia-
ment to get through a second reading by referring a Bill
to a Select Committee. He could understand the ap-
pointment of a Select Committee to consider the ma.
nagement of episcopal and capitular estates, and then to
refer that Bill to such a Committee. That would be
the course which he thought might be more satisfacto-
rily adopted. It appeared to him, without meaning to
go into the details of the Bill, that it was the com-
mencement of an interference with the property of the
Church which ought not to take place, and a destroying
of that independence which the Church ought to possess
in this country. At such a moment as the present, too,
when they were stemming the aggressions made upon
the Church, he considered the introduction of such a
measure was most unwise, as it seemed a measure cal-
culated to injure the independence of the Church. He
fully agreed with the Right Rev. Prelate that the Bill
was but a temporary remedy for a temporary evil, when
it ought to be of a more comprehensive nature to be
really useful.
The Earl of HARROWBY (who spoke in a very low
tone) was understood to observe that the question they
had to consider was, whether they would go into Com-
mittee upon the general subject of Church property of
that description, or refer that particular Bill to a led'
C,mnaittee? The mode proposed—namely, that of re-
ferring the Bill to such a Committee, was the usual one
adopted for dealing with such matters, and doing so did
not commit any party on the general principle of the
Bishop
i sih o
op someof London,ofthe
°
measure. After having referred to some of the details
stehrevatie
Nobleus mode Ear
Earl
upona s
of the Bill, and replied i e
by
theordahips whether they were prepared to
b
ked them
their
reject the only means which just now presented them-
selves for providing for the great and growing wants of
the Church?
Lord STANLEY said it appeared to him that there
was a very general concurrence with regard to that
measure upon two points ; first, that the various com-
munications and correspondence which had taken place
relative to the matter had directed public attention to it,
and then that the inquiry which both Houses of Parlia-
ment had made had led to the almost universal consent
that some legislation ought to take place on the subject.
The public mind had been so excited on the question,
and the public attention so much called to it, that it Was
bettor for the interests of the Church, and those con.
nected with its property, that they should come to some
determined course of management with respect to that
particular description of property. On the other hand,
there was a general feeling that the question should not
be approached without giving to all parties concerned
full notice of the matter, as if it were a private Bill af-
fecting property in which they had an intesest. He
should have no hesitation as to the course which he
should pursue were the question before them one
simply to affirm or reject the principle of the
Bill. But the question was a much narrower one—
that of voting for referring the Bill, or not, to a
Select Committee. He did not think they were either
affirming or rejecting the principle of the Bill by
referring it to a Select Committee; and he conceived
that the Right Rev. Prelate had somewhat underrated
the power of a Select Committee when he supposed that
the principle of the Bill would be affirmed by such a
reference, and that the objects to be effected by it were
to be carried out. The objects of the Bill, as stated in
the preamble, was to the effect that it was " for the im-
provement of the present system of management of the
real property of the Church of England, so as to render
it more conducive to the spiritual welfare of those be-
longing to the Church, and for correcting the fluctuating
annual value of the said property," &c. Now, it was
not natural to suppose any of their Lordships would ob-
ject to any proposition for making the property of the
Church more conducive to the spiritual welfare of her
children. But the investigation of the present Bill in-
vited to the consideration of two very material subjects,
and these were the respective rights of the lessors and
the lessees. There was another very important part of
the question—namely, in what manner were they to deal
with the property and the episcopal revenues so as to
carry out that proposed portion of the system, the allot-
ment of a fixed income to the bishops? It bad been fully
felt that there was a great variety in the amount of the
incomes of bishops, and also of a body of men whose
duties were equally important. And within the last few
years efforts had been made to equalise the revenues
and the labours of their respective sees; and no doubt
it was desirable to do so as far as possible. Ho believed
that the correctly expressed object of the Commission
was not to obtain a fixed income for the bishops, but a
more equal average one. He did not assent to the doc-
trine that Parliament had laid it down as a principle
that a fixed and not an equalized income was desirable.
If he understood the proposed Bill properly, the whole
of the income was to be taken under the management of
the Commissioners, to be by them after reconverted into
landed property. Now that appeared to him a very
complicated arrangement, and one which required
great consideration as to its details. With respect to
the condition of the lessors and lessees after that Bill
should have passed, he understood the Right Reverend
Prelate objected to giving the tenant a right in per-
petuity. The tenants of the Church had at the pre-
sent moment no indefeasible right to the renewal of their
leases; but their Lordships were bound to consider
what was the practical result of the existing tenure of
that property. He held it to be the case, that the lessee
had the prescriptive right on the lessor, although ho had
no legal claim for his lease. The difference between
the value of freehold property, and that held under
the Church by the existing law, was easily ascertained.
Anxious as he was to improve the property of the Church,
and sensible as he was of the proposed benefit, he could
not, looking to the equitable rights of the lessees. agree
to sacrifice them at once, as if tee Church was in full
possession of the whole property, and tied nothing to do
but to run out the lives and come into its enjoyment.
That which could not be obtained without au Act of
Parliament ought not to be obtained without giving
some equivalent advantage to the other party whose in-
terests were effected. If he could be shown how the pro-
perty could be increased to a similar amount without
altering the relations in which they at present stood, he
would approve of that in preference to any other mode.
There was now a portion of the value of the property
in abeyance, which was to benefit either the lessor or
the lessee. That increased value, however, should be
divided between them. The Bill, moreover, proposed to
do away with leases of lives renewable for ever. Now,
although in agricultural property leases of lives were not
found to be an advantageous description of tenure, yet,
when the leases were renewable for ever, it was like a
freehold. They contemplated, therefore, making a very
serious alteration in converting freehold into mere
personal property. In such a case they took away civil
and political rights. He should be unwilling to reject
that which was said to be the principle of the Bill, but
there were words in the preamble which threw some
doubt upon his mind. There was allusion made to cer-
tain Commissioners, and when they went on to say from
the recommendations of those Commissioners such and
bouft the lessees,
w hpethee this
such tLings were to be done, it seemed like binding
themselves to the principle of the Bill. He did not
think it was desirable to reject that Bill,
it was desirable their Lordships should considerhie. that For
question as fairly and as deliberately as
other
rssueepesition
ho would
bat ho believt,d
considering not only that Bill,
brought forward on the part
suggest to the Noble Marquis opposite,
to be taken—a
course might not be the moscina
or reject the principle course which would neither u
a Select
without its having received a second reading.
Committee
of the Bill. They could not affirm or
the Bill to
What he would venture to suggest was, whether it
might not be advisable to postpone the second reading
for the present—t0 appoint a Select Committee, to which •
ports of the Commissioners, and other
and
ce
might be
thee rlerreed the matters stated in the preamble of
thoßill,
matters connecterdeinwaiitnh
stthaendsinugbjeocvte,r
vvnidthmouetan ptrimsjeu
Bill itself could
until the Committee should have made its report. Such
was the course which he ventured to recommend upon
that subject, which it should be admitted was a difficult
and important one, and one which required the fullest
and fairest deliberation.—(Hear, hear.)
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said there would be very con-
siderable danger in adopting the proposition with
which
his Noble Friend concluded. He thought he might ven-
ture to affir that if that proposal were agreed to their
Lordships would not pass any Bill on that subject during
the present session of Parliatnent.—(" Hear, hear," from
the Government aide), They all knew how long that
question had been hung up for consideration; and he
thought their Lordships would agree with him that it
would not be desirable to take a course which would
have the effect of postponing all legislation on the sub-
ject for an indefinite space of time.—(Hear, hear.) If
the interests of the lessees were to be injured by that
Bill then he would say let them tow those
interests into consideration. He believed the
lessees had very strong claims upon Parliament,
whatever might be done on the question.
those who were
They had strong claims, inasmuch
troubles
sbeen relieved b
the legal trustees of the property
of landed 'the system of leases of all the
and with reference
pro-
prietors, which, speaking for
that he approved
inconsiderable. He could
for, say that
there were
to the last twelve months, he himself,
ha,d found to be not at all
Bill,e d objections; but he did not
the postponement of legisla-
tion and should therefore vote for the
ihooimnn some
)haetrbtoasut tgoah:cmtwe n
31°hofalitcyaLhhet
A:as:
every clause in the
for
view of the Bill being referred
raedfearednvci
SDOWNE felt it incumbent on
second reading with
Committee.
to a Select Co
The Marquis remarks with
see
dto
theirthe costae
him to snake
afewLordopposite h
which the Noble _
pursue on this question. lie believed that the
ships to d bad stated most correctly allthat had passed
Noble Lord
at former periods on this subject. But he thought that
the Noble Lord, on reconsideration, would see that the
course proposed to be taken by his Noble Friend near
him was perfectly consistent with the objections which
the Noble Lord and other Noble Lords entertained to
the provisions of the Bill. The course proposed by his
Noble Friend was for their Lordships to read the Bill a
second time without pledging thowsulves to any one
provision of it, beyond that stated by the Noble Lord
himself, and to which reference was made in the pre-
anabie—viz , that the present state of Church property
wets not smell tv, ought to be continued, and that it was
lieeirahle for the Legislature to interfere, with a view
putting it on a better footing wills respect to the in-
terests of those who own that property, end with
due consideration of' the
interests
believed nothingthose
rho
hold
would be
under them. Beyond that
ho
the measure. Any details
affirmed as the principle ot.
which the Noble Lord
might wish to amend might be
Committee; considered in a Select and as the object of
the Noble Lord Was the same as his own—to have the
Bill considered—he need not remind the Noble Lord
that before a :elect Committee could do so, the Bill
must be read a secured time by their Lordships. He
wished the Committee to have the opportunity of consi-
dering the report, and on which it was
founded, and, and the evidence
at the same tame, the hi
provisions of
the
Diu itself. Jae asked_their Lordships who had had ex.

... 46
... 28

THEATRE ROYAL, ADELPILL
Rader the direction of Madame Celeste,
THIS EVENING,
Will be performed THE GREEN BUSHES.
After which a new and original Farce called LONDON FOG. Mr.
Frank copal. Mr. P. Bedford ; Mr. Simple, Mr. Wright ; Mrs. Brisk,
Misa F. Harding.
To conclude with SLASHER and CRASHER.

itoYAL PRINCESS'S THEATRE, OXFORD-STREET.
Under the Management of Mr. C. Bean and Mr. Keeley.
THIS EVENING.
Shakespere's Play of TWELFTH NIGHT. Characters by Messrs,
Belton, kder, Addison, J. 'Fining, Meadows, Keeley ; Mrs. Keeley,
and Mrs. C. Kean.
Alter which a new Farce called APARTMENTS.
" Visitors to the Exhibition may be accommodated."
To conclude with a new grand dpeCIRCIILar Extravaganza (taken
from a Tale, by Washington Irving), enUUed THE ALHAMBRA ;
Or The Three Moorish Princesses. Characters by Messrs. Keeley,
Harley, A. Wigan, Wynn, Cooke, Flesmore ; Misses Murray, Daly,
Vivash, Robertson. Leclerq, Keeley, Mdlle. Anriol, and Mrs. Keeley.
Itc., to be had 01 aU the Booksellers, and of xr.
Private Boxes,
Massuigham ; of whom also
Oxforlillspaces may be taken at the Boa-office,
-street, from E leven
t Fear o'clock.

ROY .1.1. I. ICE Liat.TILEATHE.
else Management el Madame Vestige.
Sole Lessee, Mr. eta.::e.s Mathews,
raft. EVENING,
Will be performed

ONLY A CLOD.

To be followed by
A DAY OF RECKONING, is which Madame Veetris will appear.
T. conclude with
a,TRE QUEEN OF THE FROGS Characters by Messrs. C.
„,..hews Roxby, Rellinghasn, Horncastle, Morris ; Mrs. Frank
Mathews R.
sit. George, Miss Martindale, and Miss Oliver.

ROYAL OLYMPIC THEATRE.
' Lessee and Manager, Mr. W. Farm.
THI EVENING,
moor WM he Performed THE LADIES' BATTLE : or, Ern Dual en
To co l'i
ncl followed by the VICAR OF WAKEFIELD.
ude with THE LOTTERY TICKET.

t Nair rEE rfs ItUr AAP Li I THEATRE.
the Patronage of her Majesty and his Royal Highnia,
Prince Albert. Proprietor and Manager, Mr. W. Batty.
THIS EVENING, Will be Perf°"ned a grand new Spectacle, entitled ELEANOR
; or, Queen
Scenesce Come,lan
T FIE AMAZON'
To be followed by new of the introducing an en-
tirelY C°l4aLlY of EnglishAr
,French, Italian, and American
Jude with a laughable Farce,
Box-offlce open 'row Eleven till Four.
Stage Manager, Mr. T. Thompson.

PUNCH'S PLAYHOUSE; Alin
EN-fist:Gl:i'
xi:Bl,7N.
Lessee, Mr. THIS COI.-- "RA—NM THEATRE.
IGDTaviONes,CINAR.r..
Will be performed a new Comedy, enttum'
DENS. Principal characters by
ton, T. Rogers, and Romer; Mrs. Seymour',
M. A. Marshall, and Wallis. Humes E. Romer,
With a new k arce, entitled A CHEAP ExcußSlox
An ILLUSTRATION OF THE EXPOSITIOX. prii; •
ters by Mesdames Marshall, M. Taylor, C. Horman, .pal charac-
Messrs, J. Reeve, Norton, J. Rogers, and Romer. and Dibdin ;
To conclude with a new comedy proverb, t _
best method of LIVING IN GLASS HOUSES.ea, bine People the
TLe prices of admission are arranged as follow :—.orohee,_
!e; poxes (first circle), 35.; (second circle), 2s. ; Pit, is. ''`' etalla,
Doors to be opened at Half-past Six, and the Perlorman,s to
commence at Seven precise-1/-
k second price will be taken to the Boxes only at Half-post Nine
—Bret circle, 25.; second circle, Is.
Private Boxes One Guinea and a Half each.

i• - ROYAL SURREY ZOOLOGICAL GARDENS.
Open for the if•eason.
The ,_ JULLIEN'S GRAND CONR f MONSTRE.
eseded Zeeprletor has the gratification to nnounce that he has =e-
vened
band, aad Ilaalatit Morns. Jullien and the elite of his
cent alonstr e, in I with a grand Con-
will continue a short season L,An.
glais, Mr. Laz c udlng Herr Koenig, M. Coßivet, Lavigne,
splendid bands of 11,!4r. Jarret, and other eminent soloists. The
stream Guards will
t!tosal Artillery, 2d Life Guards, and
.Cold-
their, respective Colonte;nd in full uniform, by the kind permission of
um.r..efelisibition
establishment. pear ZLin addition to the effective band of this
Mr. Laiarus. Jullien,, ',',11 by Herr Koenig, M. Collinet, Ciotti, and
novel. effects ; also, j Quadrille with increased and
gigmatti the Great Exhibition.
the splendid piece of Sctuptar .I'°w Amazon Galop, suggested by
Representation ef a
vparrcitendeandn:
the Messrs. Danson, representin- Ilkxlelled Panorama, painted by
or th..,, modelled
of Janus in the Eternal
Cliy,:*ith a striking View
.seeuxtna'swilPvalacee, including two C'esar
giEf
riza
ffe e s , two
Me
leenpah
ag enr it
s,e i swb:i tchh
caparisoned and attended. The Zantherc: grounds, appropriately
clans •of first-rate celebrity, 1.
conclucteoraposed of musi-
Moored on the lake is seen a real Chinese pie,. by Mr. Godfrey.
sad sails complete. Also Remington's aerial i;elidniik, with masts
novelties ; -and at dusk will be given, on a Scale ot ge. and various
nificente, a representation of the Closing of the ItisluerPa'sing mag-
Temple of Janus, with (for the first time ever acesatte:p of the
colossal transparent diaphonic panopticon, showing the ,l)a gra"
war and the blessings of Pence, terminating with a mostotrrithors "pl of fireworks by Nes,ifs...
ioutii by ; and an at
„_,--ant
tithe arts and sciences depositing their treasures at the ieerleau
oi her
Majesty Queen Victoria, the whole forming the most gorge°
na sift.
ladle over witnessed. .
ADMISSION—ONE F BILLING.
Exhlbitian nights—Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and
Friday.

The FLORAL EXHIBITIONS of the Royal South London Florl.
cultural Society will be repeated during the Season ; the First will
take place on Wednesday, Slay 28.

TELEGRAPH SYSTEM IN AMERICA.—As an example
of the perfection to which the telegraph system has been
carried in America, we may mention that the substance of
Are ,
....:a's news was transmitted from New York to New
(
- :I" • ''•• - •iw.Lg,•• of 2,000 miles—and replies received
-, .v- " ~I„,#„,rraiwia in the inareclibly short apace of three
tv,.,- ' .1. ~,'. . ~ sitin. se.
•!: -4 -- vs;:-~-.,\7•A
:4(.T4
~•,.,;. ~. N'••• `'.., ';', •!
'' •••!:i.4.6—%, ';'--- '-' 5,./
r• -.',447,•,- ~-,7 :--,•"7--,','"e !,-,>,

-

perienee in Committees, whether there was not great
advantage in such a course, inasmuch as every detail of
the Bill would be fully considered, and an opportunity
would be afforded of rejecting every objectionable pro-
vision in the Bill. He was quite ready to state that if
this course were adopted, ho should not consider the
House in any degree pledged to that which had been
objected to in the Bill —viz., an absolute renewal of
all leases of Church property for ever. He found
nothing in the preamble or in the wording of the
Bill to prevent the Committee rejecting, or limiting
or regulating the claim—if not the right of lessees,
in the way most conducive to the interests of the Church,
taking into c insideratien what the Right Rev. Prelate
had admitted to be the claims of those who occupied as
lessees. He appealed to the Noble Lord on the cross
bench whether, if they sent the subject to a Select Com-
mittee without the power of considering the Bill, it
would not be equivalent, if not to a rejection of the Bill,
at least to an indefinite postponement of it, and to a
taking away of all chance of any progress being made
in the question this session. For fifteen years the sub-
ject hate occupied the consideration of the public gene-
rally, and of the occupiers under the Church, and of the
Church itself in particular, and some settlement of it
had been looked forward to by all parties. By sus-
peeding that settlement the interests of the Church, and
also of the lessees, had been deteriorated, because it had
been found impossible. to carry on improvements and to
develop the resources of the property held by the
Church. An expectation of a settlement having been
held out, be thought their .Lerdships ought to take the
first practical step towards it by sending this Bill to be
duly considered by a Committee. He submitted, there-
fore, on the understanding that the Bill be sent to a
Select Committee, that their Lordships should now agree
to read it a second time pro forma.
The Bishop of OXFORD did not rise to discuss the
principle of the Bill, but to move an amendment in ac-
cordance with the suggestion of the Noble Lord oppo-
site (Lord Stanley), that a Select Committee be ap-
pointed to consider how and by
ment the capitular and episcopal property of the Cu
what system of mahnarteh-
might be rendered more productive of benefit to the
State, and most conducive to the spiritual
and reasonable
of
the
people, due regard being had to the just
claims of the present holders of Church property under
the
lease or otherwise.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped, fe
reasons stated by the Noble Lord opposite,
Marquis,
that their
Lordships would take this course. The Noble
. in answering the objection of the Noble Lord, had re-
ferred to the preamble, but had omitted to read the
"
qualifying wordswith the modifications as hereinafter
contained.'' It was desirable that the interests of all
should be duly considered, and if; as the Noble Earl on
the cross benches feared, the Bill would not pass this
session, he could only assure him that it was one one of
those ceses to which the old proverb of "the more haste
the worse speed" was very applicable. lie begged to
move the amendment.
The Earl of CARLISLE opposed the amendment.
After the discussions that had taken place—after the
general concurrence of opinion with respect to the pro-
visions of the Bill—after the question had been before
the public for upwards of tea years, and had been last
year the subject of a special report of Commission—and
after the Government had introduced a Bill founded
upon that report—he did think it was ungracious to re-
fuse the Bill a second reading. He was astonished that
the Right Rev. Prelate for Oxford should have laid any
stress on the modifying words in the preamble, since it
would be perfectly open to the Committee to say whe-
ther those words should be struck out of the preamble or
not. One must be sanguine, indeed, to suppose that the
report of such a Committee as that proposed by the Right
Rev. Prelate would dispose of the question. In all probabis
14, if ever such a report came before them, there would
be another Select Committee moved for, to consider the
Bill, so that the whole question would be postponed.
Quite certain that the country would disapprove of the
withdrawal of the Bill, be felt bound to give his decided
opposition to the amendment.
The Earl of ABERDEEN did not rise to speak on
the merits of the Bill, but as the Noble Earl had spoken
of the second reading of it as a matter of courtesy he
wished to recall to their Lordship's recollection what
the second reading of a Bill meant. As the oldest mem-
ber of the House present, he thought he was entitled to
offer his opinion that the second reading of a Bill—spite
of all understanding and agreements—was an affirmation
of the principle of that Bill. He knew it was not
alweys easy to explain what the principle of a Bill was,
but if the principle or this Bill was as represented by the
Right Rev. Prelate, the conversion of leases for life into
leases in perpetuity, that would be what they would
affirm by reading the Bill a second time. In a Cormnitee
they might deal with the provisions of the Bill, but with
the principle of it they could not.
Earl GREY said the question in this case was, what
was the principle of the Bill? His Noble Friend had
stated iii the clearest manner that he was willing to take
the p:inciple as defined in the first part only of the pre-
amble, viz., an improved management of Church pro-
perty with due regard to the just and reasonable claims
of persons holding it by lease or otherwise; that was all
they w ere to affirm by the second reading. The course
proposed by the Right Rev. Prelate (Oxford) would vir-
tually negative the second reading.—(No, no.) When
he eonsideted the extent to which the lessees were suf-
fering by the present state of things, he thought their
Lordships would incur a serious responsibility if they
adopted a course which would virtually prevent all legie-
'stem on the subject this session.
After a few words from the Archbishop of CANTER.
BURY and the Earl of POWIS, both of whom were in,
audible, their Lordships divided,
Contents ••• •••
Noe-Contents
Me jority for the second reading ... —lB
The Bill was thee read a second time.
Teeir Loniehips then eajoureed.

ti 1' ti.ll; kW) t AL, LSAYa ARK E .
wabgter, tole Lesvev stn.! Manager, 01J Bromptou.
Will be
TIIIS EVENING,
performed an entirely New Comedy, entitled RETIRED
FRO %I 11(IbLNESS. Zachary Pennyweight, Mr. Lambert ; Cree.
mouse, Mr. Buckstone ; Lieut. Tackle, Mr. Stuart; Captain Gunnp,
Mr. B. Webster; Paul Puffins, Mrs. Fitzwilliam ; Kitty Penny.
Weight, Mis: Annie Romer.
After which THE SERIOUS FAMILY.

101. jo.
Holyhead .. all
Aber. June, all
4 (31. 108.)

intim Exten.,
. No. 1 .. i

ceat. Stock
'nion, Scrip
per cent.
then. Shares .
ishire, 6 per
ter shares ..
lc. June. 5 Ms
Dun. 61 p.ct.
W. Consol.
n. 5 per cent.
& Western
ghths „

and York.

Stock ..
6 per

ThirBk,

Ira, 1848 .;
righton, and
jt guar, 5 per
•oydsn thirds 100
5 p ct. Stock,
1501. shah. E 100
lan. 6 per ct. 100
uew
r and Ennis_
If shares 10
leffield, and
r. shrs., No. 1 all
,01. All

•• 3
..i p. C. stock 100
01. nriatol &
6 per cent... V
& Gloucee.
.tension
6% per cent.
ley Valley
ish
Vf

01.151.6 p,c
and Bina.'
ranteed
. Ches. (hTnr,
8 per cent.
..

4% p. ct:l alllo
Kilkenny, 51. I
Oat Cl. (101.) all
is do. (par)/ all
, and Bone.,
E. Pur. .. an

Forth Midland
. Parch. ..

id Amiens ..
Franca (Or-
Vierzon) ..

Peninsula

Sambre

'aleitia

Liege
r France• .•
Bordeaux .•
rleans • .
ouen • • • •
;.rasbourg
lavre
Meuse • •
r itil ted . . . •
Irbise, Lan-
lasselt ••

the offai.

Per 81bs. to s.
s. .1. TO s. d.
8. d. to ii.d
interior Beasts... • . 2 4 2 ,1 iv.tcrtor Sheep • .2 10 3 0,
second quality . 2 8 210 Srveno gum. Stwei• 3 2 3 '
Pnme !arse Oxen.. 3 0 3 2 C ,arse-woolleSditto3 6 3 I
erime Scots •• •• •• 3 4 3 6 routhdown Wether 3 8 4 0
barge coarse Calves 3 0 3 6 Date out of the wool 0 0 0 0
I.'Pmeaniali ditto .• 3 8 4 0 Large Hogs ...... 2 8 3 :
4ueklio; Calves •• 18 0 21 0 small Porkers .. :. 3 6 3
~..
Cambs .... • • •••• 4 8 510 Quarter old figs ..16 0 19 v
TOTAL 81.111 LY AT MARKET
I Sheol). I Calves I MI
9,620 209 25e
SCOTCH.
I iiheep. I Calves. I
60
FOREIGN Burprx.
,seasts. I Sheep. I Calves. I
180 480 90
NEV7GATII AND ZDADENNALL:
Only a limited business was transacted in these market.,
at barely stationary pt ices.

Iteamtt
1,022

Beasts.
370

AL d. to s• O.
Mutton, interior .. 2 6 214
8 / ---- middling . • 3 0
! i primelargo .• 210 3 0 i --___. prime .... 3 6 4,
Ve•ii •• • prim
••e small .• 0 3 2 Pork, 1arge........ 2 6 3 ;
••• • • •—• 3 3
0 310 --grnall ........ 3 6 $ -
Lamb, 44 6d to 5e 6d.

rrgs,
30

At per stone by the Carcase.
5. d. to s. d.
.eelonrerior.... •• 2 2 2 4
- middling .. •• 2

CXA.
SUGAR.—The marketOLO
has bN
eenll. flatter, and buyers hare
had an advantage of about 6d per cwt. all round. Never,: the!ess at this decline there has been a good deal done.
13: to
badoes, fine yellow sold at 418 6d t • 42s 6d, good at 304 6
41s, low at r. 75 to 37s Gd, and good to tine brown at 355 ,„ •".
St. Kitts, good brown realised 35. 6d, and Antigun 34d Refi ed brown lumps have been lower, viz. 48s to 48s 64, la
grocery lumps up to St's.
EAST INDIA. Bengal was take'srather freely at about the
same decline as Briti,h Plantation, mid to good white
Gd D t
nares 40s 6d to 41s cd, and fine grainy yellow 435 t
445. Madras went at 28-16 d to 30s for soft brown. and
30 to 34s tor yellow. Penane, ord white, realised 405.1 f
40s 6d. Ceyl, n sold at 36s 6d to 37s 6d for mid soft gre7lsn
yellow, and at a4s to 3''s for low. Mauritius went rather
cheaper, good to fine yellow 395 6d to 40s 6d, low ba Ad to
.' 37s, and fine brown 355 to 365.
Fonmcs.—Yellow Havannah has been sold at 395 t04286d6d
for good and tine, 36s to 388 Gd for ord to mid, and 34300 d.
to 40s6d tor washed. White was taken in at
29s for Porto Rico, about 500 hhds 25 tierces and 180 brls., Sju or
368 to 395 for ord to mid yellow, and at 39s 6d to 4's,°',A for
good and fine bright grocery.
ComE.—The demand for Native Ceylon has been limited,l but good ord has been sold at 40s. Plantation Ceylon 51d
,' 83 ,
at 46s to 51s for fine fine ord and low mid ; at 52s to •
mid and good ; at 44s to 45s 6d, for triage; at 60a
to 603 6d
Inca'
for fine; and at 743 to 755 for very superior. In West
Mocha, and other descriptions, very little has been done.
COCGA.—Trinidad has been sold decidedly lower; S
red 445 to 455; and ord grey, 35s Gd to 38s 6d.
Ricg.—Lower prices by about Gd per cwt has been Ib.1b.
mitted to. Bengal has been sold at Si ed to 9s for
nil" 0
,ya
good mid white, up to lOs for good. Madras has realizea 'to7s 6d for mid and'good mid pinkey.
SPlCES.—Pimento has ruled lower 414
; mid to good mid, d.
to 40. White Pepper has been sold at Eid to Gid for on,
Malabar, halt heavy, has been at about 321 d. Jamaica Ging'.
has been taken in at 67s to 86s.
COTTON.—The market has been very heavy, and withont
much disposition to operate.
SALTPETRE.—A lair business has been done at full price°.
Bengal, 6ilbs refraction, 26s to 26s rad.
TEA.-- The market has been dull.
TALLOW.—P. Y. C. has been at 37s per cwt on the spot.
Rum.—This article has been dull, and at barely previous
rates.
GREEN FRUIT.—AII improved demand exists for OrineS
- 1,500 packages Messitut and Palermo, and went rom' Lir
bon, sold by Keeling and Hunt at public sale,freely SC
a reduction of is to 2s per package. Lemons loWerar
the sale of which not being so good as was anticipatiar holders are pressing sales at a reduction of price. /shits
all kinds dull of sale, and a better market is expected L 1
month.

EPSOM RACES.
(THIS DAY.-BY EXPRESS).

Railway Plate.

Miss Letty colt
M. Iluudin

.., I
2