The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-29 00:00:00

TITHES IN IRELAND.

Mr. O'CONNF.E.L, in reference to the resolution of the
House to provide for the payment of the tithes in Ireland,
due to ecclesiastical incumbents during the years 1821,
1822, and 1823, said his Majesty's Government bad
promised to take into consideration the propriety of ex-
tending the same mode of payment to lay impropriators.
He asked whether Government had taken the subject into
consideration, and what was the result.

Lord ALTHORP stated that the object of that reso-
lution was to put a stop to the present mode of collecting
tithes; and, after the best consideration that the a,vern-
ment could give to the subject, they had determined to in-
clude the lay impropriators.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said the law was already suspended in
Ireland, and the purport of the Noble Lord's answer was
to continue that suspension.

11,1 r. H. GRATTAN denied that the law was suspended
in Ireland.

Mr. RONAYNE rose, but

The SPEAKER reminded the House that a conference
relative to negro slavery was appointed with the Lords,
and that it would be better that that should take place
before the House proceeded further.
The same managers who had been appointed on a for.
mer occasion to conduct the 'onference on the part of this
House were appointed to confer with their Lordships, and
they withdrew.
Lord ALTHORP brought up the report of the con-
ference with the House of Lords, who had agreed to the
resolutions of that House on the subject of colonial
slavery.
Ordered to be kid on the table.

The Noble Lord then moved the order of the day, that
the House do go into Committee on the Rank Charter.
In reply to a question from an Hot. MEMBER,
Lord A LTHORP was understood to say the Superanntia •
tion and Pension Bill was prepared, but that it was not
the intention of the Government to introduce it in the
present session.
Mr. H. GRA I'TAN referred to some statements that
had been made in that House relative to the illegal enforce-
ment of tithes. He held in his hand twenty-four
original affidavits, showing that not only had the tithes
which were called for by the right of Government
been levied, but also those for 1832 ; and in some
cases where the rents for 1831 had not been en-
forced. The levying of the tithes fur 1832 was altoge-
ther illegal. He would not go through the whole of the
affidavits—(Hear, hear)—but would place them in the
hands of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland if that
Hon. Gentleman would take measures to put a stop to
these proceedings.
Mr. LITTLETON replied; that steps for an inquiry
into the circumstances had already been originated. If
the Hon. Gentleman felt disposed to put the affidavits in
his hands, he had no objection to take charge of them.
Lord ASHLEY reminded the Noble Lord, the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that that evening had been ap-
pointed for the further consideration of the Factories
Bill, and that it had been postponed to that even-
ing, instead of to the Monday preceding, at the par-
ticular request of the Noble Lord.—(Heir, bear.) Under
these circumstances he had a cl•ar and decided right
to claim precedence then ; hut he would wave that right
if the Noble Lord would freely and candidly promise him
that no other public business should intervene on Monday
next.

Lord ALTHORP, after a few observations, fixed for the
following Friday.

PENSIONS.

In answer to a question from Mr. IV. HARVEY,

Lord ALTHORP said, that the return respecting the
date at which the present existing pensions and supet annua-
tions were granted was not yet prepared, but he did not think
it would answer the expectations of the Hon. Member.
CARRICKFERGUS ELECTION—SITTING OF

ternber—(Langllter)—hut be was content to move the
postponement of the measure till the 15th of July.
Postponed accordingly.
BANK CHARTER.

After a few preliminary observations As to the order of
the business, the House resolved itself into Committee.

The CHAIRMAN then put the first resolution, and
Colonel TORRENS, in rising to address the Committee,
said he should not occupy their time by any preliminary
observations, but proceed at once to state the object he
had in view, and explain the grounds on which he ventured
to hope he should persuade the Committee to adopt
the resolution with which he should have the honour to
conclude. His object was to obtain delay for the purpose
of having sufficient time maturely and deliberately to con-
sider this most important question. And if he were
asked for the grounds on which he requested that delay,
he would answer they were contained in the report of the
Committee appointed last year, to consider of the expe
diency of renewing the Bank Charter. That report
he had in his hand, and with the permission of
the Committee he would read one short passage. The
passage was this :—" That the period of the session at
which they commeneed their labour, the importance and
extent of the subject, and the approaching close of the
session will sufficiently account for the limited progress
of the inquiry, and the incompleteness of the materials
which have been collected for the purpose of form-
ing an opinion." Now, it would be in the recollection
of the House, that of that Committee the Noble Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer was Chairman —if not the
parent, he was the sponsor, of the Committee—( Hear,
hear, hear)—and the language of the report must be
considered that of the Noble Lord. Now the Noble
Lord had distinctly told them in the report that
he was not able to furnish the House with the
grounds on which they could famish an opinion ; how,
then, could he come forward and ask the House to come
to a decision on this most important question, without such
grounds and materials as were requisite to the forming of
a correct opinion ? Even in the case of the unimportant
private Bill, which had been referred to a Committee up
stairs, such a course could not for a moment be adopted.
The Report he had alluded to distinctly and most unequi-
vocally told them that they ought not again to intrust to
this irresponsible body the management of the enormous
extent of business of this great commercial country. In
point of fact that body had by their gross mismanagement
under their new regulations, occ isioned more fluctuations
since the year of the panic (1825), than had ever been
known before. The Hon. Member then proceeded to sub-
stantiate his position by a long string of figures, which
have been repeatedly printed in various shapes. In fact
the managers of the concern had throughout exhibited such
utter incapacity for the business, as was clearly to be seen
not only from the ebsurdly impracticable regulations which
they had promulgated, but from the practical results of
these regulations, that it would be highly culpable again to
intrust the management of such momentous national in-
terests to this body. Not only would this occasion a
deficient circulation, but the contraction of the currency
would inevitably produce a dearth throughout the land.
The resolutions of the Noble Lord contained nothing calcu-
lated to obviate the evils which an extension of the
B ink Charter, as at present contemplated, would in-
evitably produce.—(Hear, hear.) There must be gold
to supply the place of the 51. notes in circulation when-
ever a panic was dreaded, or whenever from any cause
these notes were withdrawn from circulation. And how
was the Bank of England to get gold? He would let the
Bank answer that. The Hon. and Gallant Officer quoted
Mr. Horsley Palmer's evidence, to show that it had no
other means of getting the quantity of gold which it
thought necessary to have in its coffers when it had it not,
except to narrow the circulation and produce a fall of
prices. He entreated those gentlemen who were the
advocates of a measure for giving relief to the people by
extending the currency, to think of the consequences of
that, and to remember, that the resolution of the Noble
Lord was directly contrary to their plan of giving relief
to the country in an easy manner, by extending the cur-
rency. The proposition of the Noble Lord, he had no
hesitation in saying, would, if it were carried, have the
necessary result, though the Noble Lord might not intend
it, to extinguish the whole of the country bankers. He
begged the country gentlemen to look at that result. The
accommodation now afforded by the country backers was
not measured by the quantity of notes they had in cir-
culation, but each of these banks, in opening cash cre-
dits with its customers, which were transferred from one
to ;mother by means of checks and drafts, afforded accom-
modation to a much greater amount than the notes it
had in circulation. On an issue of only 5,0001. it
might afford accommodation to the extent of ten, fifteen,
twenty, or even fifty thousand pounds. By putting the
notes out of circulation, they would lose the profit of this
branch of their business, and might be unable to continue
the accommodation they now afforded. The cash credits
were even of more importance than the notes, and it was
of some consequence that they should not be destroyed.
The Noble Lord said, that there was no ground for form-
ing any opinion on the subject, and on that ground he
called on the House to pause before it proceeded with the
pla❑ of the Noble Lord. They knew, from experience,
that many calamities had been brought o❑ the roan ry by
the present system of currency. They knew thr.t the
errors of the Bank Directors were not corrected ; they
knew that under what the Directors called their lull:roved
system the fluctuations had been very great, and they
could have no hope of avoiding in future those calatnities
which the country had suffered in times past. If they
continued the circulation in the hands exclusively of the
Bank of England, they must expect that fluctuation would
again ensue ; that panics would follow, and that famines
and convulsions would agai❑ threaten the land. He, o❑
all these grounds, therefore, recommended the Committee
to postpone the consideration of the question for another
session. The Hon. and Gallant Member concluded by
moving the insertion of words, as an amendment on the
Noble Lord's resolution, purporting that the consideratio❑
of the subject should be postponed till next Session of
Parliament.

Mr. P. SCROPE seconded the amendment. (The
Hon. Member was only imperfectly heard in the gallery.)
He said, as far as we could make out, that the question
was one of vital importance. It was universally admitted
that the banking system of the country was very defective ;
and surely when the Bank Charter was about to be re-
newed was the time for inquiring into and remedy ing those
defects! The Bank of England, though not the only, was
the chief source of the circulation of the country. Five-
sixth of the notes in circulation were Bank of England
notes; and the whole amount of gold in circulation was
supplied by the Bank of England. There could be no
doubt, therefore, that the Bank of England had a com-
plete controlling power over the whole circulation. There
could be no question, therefore, that this controlling
power must be blamed for those alarming fluctuations
which had inflicted such great evil in this country during
the last 20 years. He would not enter into a history of
those fluctuations ; he would merely ask, were those evils
the necessary consequence of every system of currency,
or only of our peculiar system ? He believed that
they were not inherent in all systems of currency,
but only in our system. Those fluctuations had at
one time defrauded creditors, and at another plunged
debtors in irretrievable ruin. He would notice a fal-
lacy of those who supported the Bank : they com-
pared it to the Mint, and concluded, because a mono
poly in the one case was advantageous, that it must be ad-
vantageous in the other. But the two systems had no
similarity. The one was a public office, the officers
were responsible to the public, and paid by the public;
the other was a private concern, quite irresponsible to
any person but its proprietors. The public had no hold
of the Bank of England. He knew that it was said that
the Bank Directors were men of honour and integrity,
and it was precisely because th,y were men of honour
and integrity that he said they were not responsible to the
public. The Hon. Member entered into some argu-
ments, and quoted several authorities to show that the
Bank was altogether• a private establishment, the
Directors of which were elected by the Proprietors,
and responsible to tlem. The Honourable Member
contended on this ground that the Batik Directors, as
men of honour and integrity, would attend to the inte-
rests of the Proprietors, and not to the interest
of the public. The Honourable Member next referred to
some person whom he did not name, who had been an
opponent of the Balk, and had been, he knew not how,
miraculously converted, and who was now the only advo-
cate of any consequence the Bank now had. The Hon.
Gentleman also referred to the authority of Mr. Richards,
to show that that gentleman spoke of the Bank of England
as a public body; but it was public only when it suited
its purposes to be so, and private when it wanted to refuse
to have its accounts investigated. He did not deny the
moderation of the Bank of England, inasmuch as it had
only nearly ruined all credit, when it might have annihi-
lated it. The Bank had only two or three times brought
the country to the brink of ruin, when it had the power
of irretrievably ruining it. So far he admitted its mo-
deration. Its principles were those of its own interest,
and they could only be prosecuted by a disregard of the
public welfare. Its power was continually directed to alter
prices, and its interest was frequently promoted by limiting
the currency, and lowering the prices in all the market•
of the country. Its power was infinitely greater than
that possessed by the Legislature, and far exceeded in its
extent and operation that power with which public opi
nion never endowed any Government. Over the Bank of