The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-05 00:00:00

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that

'sl.lci vote for any Measure which would have the effect
d.ekldideing the power of the Hon. Member for
e, ews Irom statement@ made privately to him, that
Dublin.
al)), gentlemen who supported the Hon. and Learned
sot daetlZll:l. in that House and in public, condemned his 4to,
nit Pe.l 1i.1.t
5.--.1. (.ries of " Nime, Public`
Name.") )
!eil Learned 11‘. lied 0? the
.statemen . by theheittH7estlid.
ar his cuat,, airneher himself, at a meeting on Saturday,
was made to as that Hon. and Learned Member
be wall 1
i. 4 say (he did not know whether correctly) that
lie ce'aed coldly on during the week both by his
Sir
and etiernies.--(Hear.)
~linntßi.sblihATESON thought the case
.laid before the
4 of the
tir 'I
.11Iajesty'e Ministers carried conviction with
teprelite.evessui of the present Bill : and
nbetirtsusacusey, the
and
atete,,h:4: nieing tiaotgorenalt andnfueml'enmselstut the feelings of
his enri't'ae of the people of theirthe neorthg of Ireland—to give
H s had come
(feat ~".lelr coneurreuce of that measure.
that i:,",ratlti Within the last few days, and he could saaysi
11,ein 41, eatt of it which he left, all the property,w.i's
io curd Worth, and all the integrity of the country
0n...
ee ta atir °f intrusting his Majesty's Ministers wi tp
was
tedaeePdat an end to the horrid state to which Ireland.
P'its'ei-7(Cheers.) He would not then discussthe.
-'p es of .
P"' lime , the Bill, but he would do so when the pro
'e for ,airtivql; meantime he would say that lie meant to
whet, •ue first reading of it. There never wasatiionne
the 1)1,4', 4" vigour and determination was required
Iteltd 0. his AL'est 'a 'Ministers than at present..
eaysttl ai-ightrtat ledieuiar vessel Y which had struck upon a rock;
have a mast cut away,
bo
ert4 t°,, haversle eof iots cargo thrown overboard
ees-.
abetli"teheOtild be got off. fie had heard a great
odu_
.1
'aY th e tYroloy and despotism of this Bill but he w
greaterld
at 0 s
rid of tYra le effect of it would be to get.
1.1 , YiaNl despotisna than ever existed in an)_ country
h lower
..I:`'(l,y, that in the northern provinces ~te Bile
(tel 0;1i' almost unanimously in favour of ti.
in , r No, no.") He repeated it—the lower
districts
ieller;•i isVour of it ; and it was only in those
goaded
Lteaese_ %us men, for their own base objects,. d
feeling had
b,,11 L antry on to their destruction, that any .
etie'r '44 against it. He acknowledged that the people
4,174, and that they had been misgover.nded
t;oand the
't4te het was, that they were now reduce
ere etatl,a ecarne necessary to. ,
It
-"'t
it
h treat them as if'utchheya.
bttot but
adinleifit, and apply the strait whainst.caosat. wHe could
pen thin in many parts, the retched-
thiltn4 the
districts,sutrhat they thought no
Ses tge e°4l bPe for:. tShoemewors With these sentiments,
IL kaking 4 t
the a only his owne' sentiment.sl,,iseb.ut those of
He was
etitile'a province of Ulster, he would c
sioe ,deedt or fettered ; he was not bound to F..ivheereexpr,s-
we re
°lsaii°ll4°etlents which he did not feel.
'twee who
Wet, pi rwiever, who spoke against this
who ,et'dged to the repeal of the Union—(
etcl haste sent to that House to vote in abpallmerateeidiCanrtillatreatrv)a—ys
tl, a eo
there as
t,' tad
Pow that
to vote otherwise—
'sl,lltl sloes of a faction, as the representatives of a
31,11(1‘trgare of a bii.cted priesthood.
in any as-
-646!),11 'lll rose to order. He had neverd .
Th. :ardsuc onpr brious language.—(Oi et.' Ch-airse.e)
th t,`,OßAkest; - °Member would
k ere '-'" hoped the Hon. a
e'tall doted- wat 4 difference between what he (A.lrs Finn)
Sided'f r:;_od taste, anti what the House considered out
,\(1-lear,)
4tl •khylaEßT BA TESON had only spoken of gentle-
'llite 1e57i4e:1111.4 into that House pledged to ineasuiefs slefiothn:
i, I)ere '4elli reasoned upon or discussed.. I ; s°eliii roUld identify themselves with such as lie men..
'414 !e°Old not help it. He concluded by.againsay-
'fel "14 his 01. s kt , own name, and as representing the feelings
4114 h. P'e 4f the North of Ireland, he would support
4 '" (
I r.ta„--- Cheers.)
14sIgs had never heard morielete.xtraHoerdi(nsalrry. tieetorl44 that used by the Hon.
I).t k),Opi' r 1 the honour of being sent to that House by
Ole ess-hy that class of the people to whom the late
pall. t0,,,,t
to
meat,},ia gave the power of sending
in
representativesconnfsV,u,ekneeleo r do f,
IN
Re had aspired to a seat iiril laitl ioclateitions sent to him by the pet))
°tie . irlesequenceof them he came forward. They
that
4 414'
elected
kit. t had tans before they .
.him, but he denied.
n lll p t. 4dopted those opinions in ortletrototboobsetawinhna
b-PPoetti 41;!ittent. In giving his support
litt fin ea.asißill, he did so, not from personal feelings,
Ift,-, P'sktm.--„,s'ncere conviction of its dangerouisdteinnfdaelnlicbyly.
ttcsee;•-•-'s against the Bill, because .
ever 14P-IPearcati°4 between the two countraiktetes.wthloeteiwnoduelsdpmsiarkoef
tiiiter kldi,:`. Ireland dissatisfied, and
Thande
ir,Nteet°p4tices in a British Housemoff Coi;rilevoanisle.d
hich be ore .
L,deiiied s ts.cl dissatisfaction
by tNiV,Pevrilptlich since thewßriellsewnatsabgraoiungsthtiti,n.signHede
ailatt 1.1 Of p,:, ''''... Petitions to
IN Ztd idwaPerty and honour, bypresent
good Whigs—by men
tit Ministers—by men
5,44'4 te„,Yrssupporteil the
411; °see ~,b0 eelonged to any secret or public association
aR.„Who had had fought the battles of Ministers—hy
1 It
-'l6° • , 1;1/4rer been agitators, but always
'•etl f' •" the were all against the Bill..
oppAosieldhtios
l'ibet: ti't i3)14'11 tinrelatli expressed the same feeling. \eV het
;t
Ilite:,rtioo _ , d_o ? Ilt wdas to coerce the Irish pe phlad
tried and failed. That
in
artelanel:tea
0:cell.
andten aovreera
vt,- 40 s ,o common a trick, that
people were
waswell
knowntated
1,,,,, Public in
.•
showing that the a
spe.
'."
it
W'
aYgaMlandit bad been s
titoe,l''se the Ministers.. e"nsgs'
would ive the House
..
clea, of the He wou. g it `° the i e °Pinions prevalent in Ireland, and would
11111: liielaguage Used by Mr. Berwick
tll'earle Tl°4. Member accordingly reada aanlateexmtrenectt-,
atid'i,ilare
of tll
year's it had been
history of Irelaod was the history of,
a,ne eiead coercion. In 250 Yea
ti "ea "34fficient ; and even those who were its ad-
nt proposi-
°a,'
Boatl'';',l'a Obliged to confess by
CI- " harl been a complete failutrhee;
f • r the
then, to
}:aartlethets'en habitable." Was it not present
country
tiirmese,
would not
themt: 4 difi'tNem, and try if healing
h Cat), !‘ent and beneficial effect
, at ~, ale: In • • but that was .
not enough ;
oeeti the i.,, e - alsipation, effect? they had given
tio,,i hilt nrieendation of better measures,h binugt ittbheatals
aneort.
tl°4, 't
the 4: , He denied—notevittand
Ili, Rte,ter 'Rot Ron. Secretary—that disturbance was
aea ft, than form lv For 70 years—as lie could
cou-"' f''' Public! do • er
' .-
Ireland had been disturbTebt
titctelyeetitly .
o:,unrits—
eleittiek v. Antrim ore disturbed than at present.
much
Londonderry, were
111 ,
art' r'e'e'
.14 the'rni.' Down, and
tutbee,slalted ~, , oeginning of the reign ''ee • -" Art of Parliament to put down the disf-:
'''''t
1;1 tthern.
..
wail Paton
e'l Put own di itsturbances ; then ail?' pirfee
awerlis •It" ehtet"°4ll,--noww they prevail in the south. lie
they
thit;44o ee4l,!'ttrdera were committednow,
fact •ilar state of
70 a tot h -‘44t(l f •en ly In ' a similar
the last
it, Years It Wle °I -er
• . existed for
i."'ed a - st inter 4.1 i now existedland
surrection
be
1,-) -nri
they ).*vals I coercive laws had
Ibeen fre.quetAitclyt
gave •:1) renew had elcvays failed. '
act,%od 11,d *eq several times, anrdbethenlandhadbn
i ior •-er it f
years ; but acts of kindness.
21a• ish redrea,i or many were almost unknown.the
lashllese at rea,„.,ng grievance
about to suspend d
e Iv
~,,, u. were they now
hy Chi" P4s were
He saw no good reason, an
- ''i'
11
lace the power granted
powet kii
in consent to
npc.i.
1 Ile would place t
as ILI
ht i 0
tlieh."Y man's ha,roasent Ministers as stoolnding
tlleir e of
a., ends of the
they Plaetv'Y Men ; but had they a patent for
himso that
) Could they assure
Howwas
etotv°lile i'asscA laYgh. day six months? .
te, haii e in office that.
h.. .410 bit". who was to be Loid.Lieutenntanint oigfbltreiliaenda
-"Ii -'4l hence? The Lord Lieutenant theseigeoer e
read .ete
i'-s Man, or he might be a very bad man, and,
Iytii ae would consent to no such Bill. He was
et'-ta,'llae•et'tver, to grant additional powers to put down
Ist'" • ..' 4 recommended by the Committee appointedr
tilki; II ,4„-ttinee of Sir Henry nth Parnell whose absencedf
up.
Till
itt
ir'i,.l,' ne deepl regretted. If at honest an
l he''44an had seat on those benches, the present
at tat
~,'''k4 e e, aavould never be passed.—(Hear.)
I_l4
4t4trltri:oitteue
d only advised that tbe 1 should be
.taiwi suspend the
Piet: la
~,:4. l bet the Ministry proposed
test To i
kh;s Act; and inflict martial law on the peo-
had made out no
illat-r,hat:„t•rY that, the Government
one
rva 4,•1:1 ef ~4' Th had only brought forward rie:lll4ll"tfu'litery tauteY havingsbdooan.e. its duty, and
singlethat
k Upon that e
the
2Ve_Tiet_
al:l.d 4,l4aiii44ifY etal:eei of
Car
rukr'kes for changing
sight Y pal the trial 'b
eaJury. Was that fa
caseß
te L'eed sl • Y . • I Bill, a strong_o
ch 4 ue ta us anti-constitutiona
What :e4see jlll outs which had not been done. T
To show
as t
~,,, tul'excepiio he tot, er would ive his consent.
`-'°lisere
~1141e~e rd. the country, he would. quote some
Beta,to 4stes, restieno v not that of agitators, but of
°l°T oi.Qaolll ellen on(p'roperty. He would quote the
i 4 to ° hie ?net Roelaford, who was a. Conservative.
asked flietip,tvmd"nee there bad been no difficulty
He was
was a l' the 'S Presecutions—none whatever. . H
°Pon the eirn44' Were ill-treated, and lie said that it
taker,
o'o rep4toseanee. Why did not the Ministry act
testis' nIY t 0 of that Committee ? Was the evidence
w_l°°lly Ofdelude and betray ? It was proved by the
4:11 bad b klice Alagistrates and country gentl,,m n,
that PL'rticesi'artti l'irought over here to give testimony,
t4l he t"
0rd1r,Y.,,, "Y the testimony of Major
essSingleton,..,„
la
ee.4,1 • e ......41 ( !_i'etlYr. law testimony
sufficientlbeetno
foundr:er di
tootiti,:° t10,i,),, ',Via t had that a
he. r i ',.`"hy bad repressed disturbances in other
nr_-ov.ien,tl: qvi,4,,,,n, one sent to Kilkenny
i t,ii,,,, ~ tee state of the country—he hail
?_(Hear,
--(,. laugh.) "(I triurGr f f him be such an act.r
Y kind ; la, '11,14, d nevec-baerennitT favour of outrages 0.
"` tit,'
"4. countenanced them by his acts ;

he wished them put an end to; but he thought the dis-
turbances might be put an end to without this Bill. It
would cause great mischief, and would not suppress these
outrages. It would promote irritation, and consequent y
agitation, to a frightful degree. Already, since the speech
from the throne, agitation had increased very much, and
those who had never been agitators before had now become
so. There was the case of Lord Midtown, who had
joined the Volunteers.—(Hear, hear.) He was a man
who had hitherto studiously abstained from politica—he
was a good Whig, and since this Bill had been brought in
he had joined the Volunteers. Similar effects had been
produced in the county of Waterford. A Magistrate had
written to him to say, that if the Bill were passed he
would resign his commission and leave the country. He
would not be made the tool to administer such a law. The
Hon. Member then referred to documents to show that
Tipperary, Waterford, and Kilkenny were tranquil. He
qu'lt,tl the testimony of Mr. 0 Shea, the late Sheriff, and
of a Mr. Power. They stated that everybody was against
Lord Grey's Bill. That was the case with men who
were good Whigs, and had been good Whigs all their
lives. Every one was against it except the Conservatives,
and d few people who suffered by the Whitefeet in Kil-
kenny.— (Cheers from the Ministers.) And was the Con-
s!itution to be suspended because a few Whitefeet com-
mitted outrages? He seas ready to give the Ministers
power to put down these outrages, but not to suspend the
Constitution. Doing that would only promote the cause
of repel, and beget a deep rooted animosity against Eng-
land. He believed that the gentlemen who brought in
the Bill were quite unconscious of what were likely to be its
effects. The Bill might enable them to collect tithes for a
short time, but it would ❑ot make the country tranquil.
Ministers talked of the disturbed state of Ireland. Was
Ulster, he would ask, iu a disturbed state? Was Mun-
titer ? No : and yet this was a province with a popula-

torn of 600,000. Was Limerick i❑ a disturbed state ?
.No. There had been, doubtless, some election disturb.
ances ; but had there been no el ction disturbances in
England ? or•, indeed, had there been no other riots in
England? Did not the House remember the dreadful
stories told i❑ the Tory Papers, in the Standard and
Morning Post, of the " brickbat and bloodshed elections,"
as they called them ? Did they forget the terrible riots at
Bristol and Nottingham ?—( Hear, from the Irish Members.)
And as to the descriptions given in the House of what dis-
turbances had occurred in Ireland, they had been fright-
fully exaggerated.—(Order.) He did not say these exag-
gerations were intentional. He did not say that the
Noble Lord who introduced the measure had stated any
thing but what had been reported to him as undoubted
truth. He denied that the state of those counties even,
which, he would admit, were really in a state of disturb-
ance, was at all such as to call for the atrocious modes of
suppression contemplated in the Bill. He would again
entreat the House to strike at the root of the evils of Ire-
land ; not to countenance the atrocious coercive measures
proposed by Ministers. He would call upon them to di-
rect their attention to the subject of tithes and their ap-
propriation. He would have them succour the poor, and
take measures to insure their education. If they neglected
those things, they would do nothing by coercion. The
Protestant population in Ireland was but 500,000.
yet these enjoyed an income of eight or nine mil-
lions. He would ask any Hon. Member whether
this was a just distribution of property ? He trusted
that this House would not pass the proposed mea•
sures with the indecent haste displayed by another
House in passing them. He trusted they would allow
time for due deliberation—that they would wait to see
the result of the assizes in the disturbed counties.
Were they to he told their duty ?—were they to be directed
what course to pursue by Sir Robert Peel—by that great
Reformer ? Were they to allow themselves to be dic-
tated to by a man who wished to make the Whigs as
unpopular in Ireland as his own party was here ? That
Hon. Member talked the other evening about a great gulf
between him and the Hon. Secretary for Ireland and of the
rubbish put forth by the Members for Ireland ; he (Mr.
Barron) supposed that the Hon. Gentleman intended to
fill up the chasm between him and office, with that rub-
bish, and to surface it over by his selfish sophistry ; but
would the representatives of an empire be led away by such
flimsy sophistry as that of the Hon. Gentleman he had
mention, d ? He trusted not. lie trusted that they would
nut fail in their duty to do justice. Ireland for many years
had been subject to the pow -r of corrupt Corporations, '
Orange ascendancy, Gagging Bills, and suspensions of the
Habeas Corpus. Was this to be continued ? He could
tell them that Ireland was all in a flame—and with reason.
The House must quench that flame by striking at the root
of the evils which excited it. At the last Doneraile As•
sizes there had been no less than 1,200 processes for tithes,
none of which were for more than six shillings.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh"—much uproar ; one gentleman entertaining
the Hon. Members with an exceedingly natural imitatio❑
of the braying of an ass.) The Hon. Gentleman, after
order was comparatively restored, cited some of the evi-
dence given by Major Bryan before the Committee in the
course of last session, which, however, we were totally
unable to catch the tenor of, from the uproar recoinmenc-
ing, which only ceased when the Hon. Gentleman who had
been speaking sat down.
Mr. CHAPMAN said that the Hon. Members of the
party opposed to the Bill were not the only persons who
found themselves in an unpleasant situation : the inde-
pendent Members, who were of no particular party, like
himself, were also in a very disagreeable position on ac.
count of this Bill, which had been introduced to the House
in a most mischievous and injudicious manner. Were the
Bill only proposed for the punishment of those persons in
Ireland who had committed the atrocious acts described,
he would be one of the last to oppose it ; there could not
be the least shadow of a shade of the possibility of his op-
position. But he should oppose it because he thought it
would have the effect of implicating the innocent with the
guilty. He thought the Bill might be divided—first, as
against local disturbances—secondly, as against illegal as-
sociations in the country. As to the second part, he thought
Ministers had made out no case. That there existed a
body of men called volunteers, was undoubted, and it was
equally true that the existence of such a body was incon-
sistent with law: but because the volunteers were culpable,
should this House consent to a Bill subjecting a whole
country to its influence? If such a Bill were to be al-
lowed, the House would be besieged next session with the
complaints of individuals of injuries and violence sustained
by them. He opposed the Bill because he believed that
the temporary calm produced by it would not be seized in
order to remove the real causes of disturbance.—(Hear,
hear.) Ministers were prepared to introduce no measures
of permanent remedy. As to the Change of Venue Bill,
had a single case of jurors having been intimidated from
the discharge of their duties been proved, he would have
given it his support ; but they had failed to establish a so-
litary instance.—( Hear.)
Mr. LAMBERT said there were two questions before
the House--whether additional powers ought to be granted
to Government, and whether the precise powers demanded
were those best calculated to restore tranquillity. The
speech of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, able as it
undoubtedly was, threw no considerable light on the sub-
ject ; it was too much occupied with personal invective—
(Cheers)—and too little with the sound views of a ju-
dicious Statesman; that speech contained a triumphant
statement of crime, but it contained no sentiment of corn-

miseration—it communicated no hopes of relief, and gave

not the slightest pr,dnise of the beginning of that retribu-
tio❑ and ciirnpensition which should atone to Ireland for
centuries of rnisgovernment.—(Cheers.) The conditio❑
of Ireland was, however, correctly described in the

speech. It was with a feeling of deep humiliation he
heard the record of atrocities detailed, which struck at
the root of all social order in Ireland ; and he acknow-
ledged that the moment was come when it must

be decided whether the King's Government or agi-
tation should be put down.—(Tremendous cheering
from the Treasury Benches.) The system of outrage had
extended into the county of Wexford, which he had the
honour to represent—a county, during a long period, dis-
tinguished for the tranquillity of the inhabitants, their
industry, and obedience—and the system had not even
what he should never consider as a palliation of crime,
the existence of grievous oppression to plead in its defence.
It was, in fact, maintained solely by a set of miscreants
and vagabonds. He would state one instance of their
mode of legislation. They broke open the house of a
poor man and placed him on his knees, ordering him to
prepare for death. The man asked his offence: they
answered, that he bad spoken too freely of their proceed-
ings, and shot him on the spot. His brains were then
beaten out, and the mockery of sending for a clergyman
, was next gone through. Was it the constitutional rights
of such ruffians the House was about to defend ?—(Great
cheering.) To insist on maintaining the guard of law
for men who trampled on all law, divine and human—
who masked their enacments in characters of blood—
was preposterous and absurd. The Hon. Member then
defended the Lis!: landlords, and proceeded to say, that
on the subject of political agitation he should speak out..—
(Hear, hear.) At present the public mind of Ireland
was in a state of political delirium.—(Cheers.) In every
village there were one or two tyrants; hut, in general,
one tyeant stood forth prominently, and called himself
the people.—(Loud and vehement cheering.) This gen-
tleman the people issued his mandates, directing
how respectable l ersons should think, speak—whom
they were to admit into their houses, and, in short,
interfered with every action of their lives. --(Hear, hear.)
This was nut a comfortable state of things.—(A laugh.)

If the outrages were merely local, they might be put down
es in England ; but while Hon. Gentlemen directed all
their attention to two parties in Ireland—the movement
and murdered parties—they took no notice of the third—
the active and revolutionary party.—(Cheers.) This last
used the name and influence of the Member for Dublin to
promote their purposes, which he firmly believed no one
would reprobate with greater energy than that gentleman.
It had issued a conciliatory address to the Whitefeet, and
how did the title run ? "To the degraded, insulted, and
trampled-upon people of Wexford."—(Cheering.) But
lie wished to observe that the Bill ought to specify the
particular crimes it was intended to punish. Instead of
this, what had they ? Open avowals that it was designed
to enforce the payment of tithes ; but he, for one, woul d
never consent to such measures intended to secure the
payment of tithes. On the contrary, he would protest
against applying them to any but crimes and the unfor-
tunate political agitation. With regard to courtsmartial,
he could for himself declare, that if he were about to be
tried for any political offence affecting his life or property,
he would prefer a courtrnartial to any other local tri-
bunal. But the people of Ireland entertained for their
very names so fixed and determined a horror, that nothing
could reconcile their feelings to them. It would be vain to
say to them, that the courtsmartial could try for no capital
offence, that prisoners would have the aid of the Judge
Advocate. Courtsmartial were indelibly asseciated in their
recollections with the horrors of 1798.—(Cheers from the
Opposition.) If, then, any other mode of trial could be
substituted for the formidable and bated courtsmartial, he
would support it. The right of making domiciliary visits
was one he regarded with much dislike. When lie re-
flected on the species of persons who were formerly
selected for such purposes, and on those from whom they
would probably be chosen for the future, he thought it
unreasonable to insist on searching the house, if any indi-
vidual did not appear at the door when called. on. Was it
not sufficient that the person by not appearing should be
subjected to heavy penalties ? The outrages, the violence
committed on those occasions, did not weigh so much with
hint ; but would not the House save the inhabitants of
Ireland from the hitter, galling, deadly insult which lace-
rated the heart?—(Hear.) Ir, his opinion, also, it was
hard that no aggrieved person could obtain redress without
appealing to the Attorney-General. Why, would not
double costs be sufficient? He had a painful but a para-
mount duty to discharge, and he would discharge it,
though he knew the consequence would be, that he would
be denounced in Ireland.—(Loud cheering.)
Mr. E. TENNANT said that the brigands of Calabria,
or the Kleptx of Greece alone could equal the sanguinary
bands that ruled Ireland. These bands possessed a power
superior to the Constitution, and in appearance of effect
far beyond the authority of the King's Vicegerent. He
would support the Bill, because he believed it would give
efficiency to Government, security to the people, and tran-
quillity to the nation. The evil required extraordinary mea-
sures to arrest its course. Crime bad not triumphed from
the want of sufficient enactments, but because it was abso-
lutely imposs hie to put them into force. One recom-
mendation of the Bill to him was, that it did not increase
the penalty for offences. Mr. O'Connell bad himself de-
Oared that the Catholics were arming through the North,
that society stood on a mine ; it was, therefore, by no
means surprising that the loyal inhabitants of that pro-
vince, which was at another time described by the Hon.
Gentleman as a smouldering volcano, should solicit the aid
of Government. The Hon. Member for Waterford had
told them that these outrages had existed for seventeen
years. When, he asked, were they to arrive at a period
of termination ? It was said—reform the abuses of Ire-
land—remedy the evils which exist in its government,
and these outrages will cease.—(Hear.) That, indeed,
might remove political agitation ; but how, he inquired,
would it put a stop to predial disturbance? Would the
murderer withhold his knife because tithes were abolished?
or the robber forego his trade because the Grand Jury
laws were amended ? No_ The provisions of the law
were already sufficiently extensive to reach these crimes;
but such was the force of intimidation, that witnesses
dared not give their testimony, nor jurors convict. The
la iture of the necessity fur additional powers was the im-
punity, not the amount of offences.—(Hear.) It was the
impunity which called for their interference ; and the de-
struction of the impunity would give security where there
was now nothing but fear and terror—would inspire
the former with confidence—and, as it were, wrest
Ireland out of the grasp of some hideous monster. But
these additional powers were not all that were necessary
to put down disturbance. No ; the ground-work of dis-
turbance in Ireland was poverty—(Hear, hear)—and pre-
dial agitation formed the embryo of political agitation.
The fiercest agitation would fail of success, if they would
only direct their attention to this point. As it was, he
found the people reckless from want, and too ready to join
in any scheme, however desperate. Let them alleviate
the condition of the Irish peasantry—afford them oppor-
tunities of obtaining remunerative employment—snatch
them from starvation—and give a legal maintenance for
the helpless and infirm.—(General cheering.) Let them
do this, and agitation would cease ; but if they did not do
this, the reign of agitation would he perennial.—(Hear.)
Mr. FITZGERALD (county Louth) referred to the
state of the county of Louth, maireaining that it did not
at all warrant the application of such strong measures,
The Petty Juries of 'be county of Louth had always dis-
charged their duty during its niost disturbed state. He
called on the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland to give
some instances of intimidation in that county. He then
proceeded to read a letter to the House from a most re-
spectable gentleman in the county of Louth, dated (if we
heard correctly) in January last, stating that the county had
not for some time past been less disturbed than at present.
The Hon. Member addressed several other observations to
the House, but they were entirely inaudible in the gallery.

Viscount DLINCANNON—He should not have in-
truded on the House at this period of the debate,
but for the observations of the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
ma❑ the Member for Tipperary. But he felt bound, in
justice to himself, to answer the question put to him by
that gentleman, whether he could support this Bill ? and
also whether, front the state of crime in the county of
Carlow, he deemed such a measure necessary ? However
reluctant he might be to give such a proposal his support,
Fe was compelled to say that he did feel it necessary to
support this Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He was also hound to
say, that the state of crime in Carlow County had lately
been much upon the increase, as appeared by the returns
made to him as Lord Lieutenant. In fact, in no county
had the increase been greater, except in the county of Kil-
kenny. He had the returns of four quarters, from the
Ist of December, 1831, and also the months of December
and January last. The first quarter's return of crimes
was 46. The return was made by the elief of the police.
—(Hear, from Mr. Shell.) Well, the chief of the police
was the onl person from whom he could obtain a re-
turn ; as he said, the return made on the Ist December
was 46 ; the second, dated 31st May, was 89 ; the third,
31st August, 68; and the fourth, 30th November, 116.
—(Hear.) He had not a complete return for the next
quarter, but he had the returns for December, 1832, and
January, 1833, and the sum total of the two was 413.
(Loud cries of " Hear.") He need not inform the Hon. and
Lea:ned Gentleman that Carlow was almost the smallest
county in Ireland. The Catholic Bishop of that diocese
had used his utmost endeavours to put a stop to this
species of Whitefeet outrage, and he had done so success-
fully within tire last two months. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman asked him whether, under any circum-
stances, he could support this Bill? He said, certainly;
but that he did not support it without reluctance, and only
upo❑ the official returns of the state of crime in Ireland.
l During great part of list autumn he hail resided in Kil-
kenny, and from what he had seen there, he felt that it
was necessary to pass some measure for the purpose of
giving protection to those who had a right to demand it
at their hands. He should narrate to the House
such facts only as came under his own knowledge. In
the county of Kilkenny he found that the most re-
spectable part of the farmers (he spoke of the lower
part of the county), were suffering under a systetn
of intimidation. Ile had hearth from many of them
(10 or 15 as we understood the Noble Lord) who had oc-
cupied their farms more than twenty years, that they bad
received notices to quit, and that under the species of inti-
midation to which they were subject, they could not ven-
ture to hold their farms. Indeed it was a fact, that in the
lower parts of Kilkenny a large body of farmers, who had
held their farms more than twenty years, had received these
notices to quit, and deliver up their farms to certain per-
sons, named in the notices, upon pain of suffering severe
punishment. He had endeavoured to prevail upon them
to retain their farms, but failed ; they alleging that those
who did so, did it at the risk of personal injury, or at least
of having the house attacked, everything in it burned,
their cattle houghed, and their property destroyed ; and he
was, therefore, under the necessity of suffering them to
give up their farms.—(Hear, hear.) This House might,
however, be sure that he did not put those in possession of
them who were named in the notices. He was, in conse-
quence of it, obliged to submit to have the land lie waste ;
and, indeed, pay some person io keep it waste in order to
prevent others from encroaching upon it.—(Heap.) Such
is the system of intimidation, that no respectable farmer
dare venture to dismiss a servant whom he has received
notice to keep, nor to take who he has received notice is
obnoxious.—(Hear.) Ile would also say, that many
notices were brought to him, containing threats against
the tenant if lie consented to pay his landlord more
than a certain price for land—such price as they

thought proper to fix. With regard to Juries, he knew
that those liable to serve on Juries, that the most respect.
able farmers used their btst exertions to get exempted.
Many had come to him and entreated him for an exemption,
alleging that they must submit to one of two alternatives
—that if they did their duty as jurymen they would
suffer the penalty of destruction to themselves and
their families; or if they did not attend, they would have
to pay 201. to the Sheriff. Indeed, so great was the re
luctance to attend at the assiz-s shortly about to take place,
that the Sher 4 of Kilkenny felt it necessary to raise the
fine to 30/.—(Hear.) It was because he thought such a
state of things ought not to continue—(Hear)—it was
because he thought protection ought to he afforded to the
helpless and the guiltless Rirsons who were made the vic-
tims and martyrs of this intimidation, that lie could, most
reluctlantly could, notwithstanding the dinibt of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, support this Bill. But he was
ready to state to the House on what understanding he did
so. He distinctly understood, this measure was not to be
applied to the collection of tithe..__( Hear.) He felt con-
fident, that much of the efficacy to he expected from this
Bill depended upon the people of Ireland being quite sure
that it would not be applied to such a purpose.—(Hear.)
He said this, because, from the observations made to him,
lie knew that such an itnpression existed even in the
House itself. A misunderstanding seemed to have arisen
respecting some remarks of his Right Hon. Friend the
Secretary for Ireland. He had not made any inquiry of
his Right Hon. Friend, because he took it for granted that
it must be intended to extend the same protection to the
ciergy as to every other person in Ireland. If it were not
intended to do so, he (Lord Duncannon) thought that the
Ministers would be unfit for the rulers of any civilized
country. Every one who knows any thing of Ireland
knows that menacing notices are gcner-.lly posted tio
against obnoxious individuals. He did not state that from
what he had read about them, or what he had heard
said upon the subject, but he htd personally convinced
himself of the fact. The Noble Lord then proceeded to
read a notice, which, he observed, he knew of his, own
knowledge had been taken from a church door—(Cries of
" Name, name," frequently repeated)—with which the
Noble Lord complied, observing, that he did not state the
name, because it appeared in the document.

" NOTICE TO TITHE-PAYERS IN A CERTAIN eARISII IN IRELAND.
" You are called on by the Lord Lieutenant to pay the ar-
rears of tithes for 1831. Beware how you act in this case. The
eyes of the people of Ireland are upon you. Now or never!
This is the time for you to stand out manfully, in common with
the rest of your fellow-countrymen. Remember that Ireland
in 1839., is not the same Ireland as in 1798. Gibbets and pitch.caps
and triangles were then the order of the day, from one end of
the kingdom to the other. Thank God ! the day has arrived
when the good sense and energy of the people have put a stop
to the proceedings of our unprincipled rulers. We are in.
formed that a few of your parishioners have paid the parson.
We are acquainted with their names and persons; and let
them depend on it, if they do not give satisfaction why they
have done so, that some visiter in the shape of Swing, perhaps,
will, before long, bring these people to a proper sense of their
duty * * * * * * * * * * To the parsons
we would say, beware how you be made an instrument in the
hands of a Government that is detested by a majority of its own
subjects. Remember, that when the Peelers are slumbering in
their barracks, and Lord Anglesea carousing in the castle of
Dublin, the people will be at their post! You parsons, if you
persist in goading the people, may meet your fate when you
least expect it—and that without your seeing the hand.
writing on the wall' to forewarn you of your doom. Take this
as a last and friendly warning.—Signed by order,

" A TITHE HATER."
When notices of this sort are posted, it cannot surely be
pretended that the country is quiet. It cannot be argued
that Ministers ought to disregard such threats as those
directed against individuals entitled to protection. Pro-
tection, it must be evident from such circumstances, must
be afforded by some such a law as that which is now
proposed. He trusted that this Bill would produce im-
mediate and permanent peace, so as to give ministers an
opportunity of proceeding to some measures of redress for
the numberless grievances of which the people of Ireland
justly complain, and for which they had been promised
redress by every successive G ivernment. Unless there
were a❑ alteration in the tithe system, he (Lord Duncan-
non), for one, thought they could never hope for tran-
quillity in Ireland. He was convinced also—although he
differed in that from many of his colleagues—that there
were imperative reasons that Parliament should be called
upon to make some provision for the p00r.....-(Hear.) He
had stood up merely to say, that the Right Hon. Secre-
tary's observations differed materially from what appeared
to he ascribed to him.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM rose ; hut, from the confusion
and cries which were raised from all quarters of the House,
it was totally impossible to catch the purport of a single
sentence. He at last observed, that if the House would
not permit him to proceed, he should move an adjourn-
ment, which he accordingly did : and on its being
seconded,

The SPEAKER put the question as an amendment.
Lord ALTHORP thought it somewhat unusual for an
Hon. Member to attempt to adjourn the business of the
House, merely because he was not attended to quite so
much as he wished. If he bad had more experience in the
House, the Hon. Member would not have proposed to
adopt such a course. For his own part, he (Lord Althorp)
heard perfectly well what he said. He hoped the Hon.
Member would not persist in his motion.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped the lion. Member would be
heard with attention. He thought the candour of the
Noble Lord might have admitted there was some little dis-
turbance while he was speaking. Though be had been
listening, he had not heard three sentences, and many on
his side of the House were in the same situation. He
considered half past eleven too early an adjournment.
They had heard those who supported the measure, and it
was right to hear these who opposed it. He concluded by
advising Mr. Buckingham to withdraw his motion. He
might renew it if the House did not listen to him.
Mr. I3UCKINGHANI said he should be happy to re-
sume his speech. He did not object on personal but on
public grounds. His objection to courtsmartial was, that
crime might be punished by civil as well as by military
tribunals.—(Cries of " Question.") It was no less for
the good of England than for that of Ireland. The Hon-
Member continued to be indistinctly heard in the gallery.

Mr. WARD said the proposal to adjourn the House at
half-past eleven, came with a very bad grace from the
Hon. Member, who had proposed to limit the time of each
Member's speaking to a quarter of an hour, when he had
himself exceeded that time. How had the brunt of the
debate been allowed to fall on the minor fry of the de-
baters (of which he allowed that he was one) ? The Op-
position attempted in vain to obscure a subject, over which
the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had shed so over-
whelming a flood of light. He now begged leave to state
succinctly why he disapproved of the amendment of the
Hon. Member, which he described as unmeaning and pro-
crastinating. An inquiry had been demanded by the lion.
Members on the other side, and in particular by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, when they knew that
evidence could not be given honestly at the bar of that
House, without the destructio❑ of the party who gave it.
He would be denounced, proscribed, and compelled to
pass his life an exile from his country. It would not be
in the power of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin, to quell that spirit which sprung from the agitation
of which he was the centre. It was important that the Irish
people should know that it was the wish of English Mem-
bers to do justice to Ireland. They only required that an
end should be put to the agitation of a question which
would be injurious to the greatness and prosperity of Ire •
land. They would not support ambition ; but if the

Hon. Member for Dublin brought forward any practical
means of improvement, they would go any length is its
favour. They wished redress to accompany coercion, for
in that lay the difference between the conduct of the Re-
formed Parliament and of the Grey Ministry, and the Po-
lish delinquencies of the Emperor of Russia. Govern-
ment were pledged to measures of improvement. But the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin should show them
a little good faith in return (he meant nothing personal).
He should abandon that phantom which would for ever elude
his grasp. English Members would do every thing for
the good of Ireland, but nothing for ambition. He was

sure in this that he spoke the sentiments of the great ma-
jority of the English Members.
Mr. BAYNTUN said, as he would shortly be called
upon to vote on this most important question, if he did
not with regret pursue a different course to what he ge-
nerally had followed since he had a seat in this House,
in opposing his Majesty's Ministers, he should not have
offered any observations to the House, knowing, as he
well must, that most other Hon. Members would be lis-
tened to with greater attention. He should, therefore,
state as conci,ely as possible the reasons why he should
support the proposition of the Right Hon. Member for
Lambeth, which, if carried, would amount, he thought,
to a defeat of this measure. The Noble Lord (Althorp)
and the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland in his able and
most eloquent speech of the first day's debate, stated to
the House that the sole justific lion the Ministers of the
Crown could give to the country for the proposition
they offered was the ground alone of a stern and arbitrary
neoess-I—a necessity which left them no alternative but to
make this application to Parliament to give them powers be-
yond the law, to provide for the security of life and property
of the subject out of the confines of the Constitution. Now
let us sec how they have attempted to prove this propo-
sition—By detailing any overt acts of treason, or civil
conspiracies, or rebellions in Ireland, levelled against the
dominion and sovereignty of the Government ? No ; but

by exhibiting a long catalogue of offences and crimes, mu -
tiers, midnight burglaries, burning*, and illegal notices,
which unquestionably have been perpetrated, but which
the regularly-constituted tribunals, with the real assistance
of the gentlemen of Ireland, he believed to be sufficient to
quell. That crimes existed in Ireland to a tremendous
extent—that burglaries and midnight assassinations were
mightily on the increase—was, perhaps, unhappily true ;
hut let him ask every thinking man to what were these
horrors to be attributed ? Why, the Noble Mover of the
address to his Majesty, on the first night of the session,
had anticipated one answer. He said Ireland had been
oppressed by centuries of misgovernment, and this
assertion was not more borne out in fact than by
the circumstance of that sort of tardiness which
had been observed and acted upon by all suc-
ceeding Governments to
propose any measure having a
tendency to allay the grievances, and remove the acknow-
ledged unheard deprivation and misery, existing to such
an extent in that unfortunate country. Another reason
appeared to him—the non-residence of the upper classes
in that country ; that absenteeism, which drew the pro-
duce of the labour and toil of the poor man from the pro-
perty in Ireland, and spends it elsewhere and in England:
and although he should be as nnwilling as the Right Hon.
Member for Tamworth to assent to a tax of 50 per cent.,
as one of a most tyrannical nature, on those living out of
the country, whose property was chiefly there ; yet, if
that country was so oppressed by misery, as, for the pre-
vention of outrage and crime produced by positive distress,
measures of coei cion be necessary, he would readily as-
sent to the levy of some tax of that nature, with a
view of alleviating ever so small a part of that misery.
If, however, neither the Noble Mover of the Ad-
dress (the Member for Perthshire) was right as to
his conclusions of misgovernment, if he was wrong
in supposing that, to distress and wretchedness, were
attributable also those melancholy facts upon which they
were about to legislate, but that the outrages and intimi-
dation were the fruits of political agitation--of those po-
litical associations anti their acts, by which the country
was under a system of union of feeling, and seemed de-
termined for the attaintnent of more Reform, for the sake
of the people, why not show, before they had recourse to
the coercive and arbitrary measures, a real and not pro-
mised disposition to remove the shameless and foul abuses
existing in the State, and deprive the agitators of their
plea of action by showing the people of the country that a
kind system of policy, the dictates of humanity and jus•
rice, reigned pre-eminently amongst the opinions of the
advisers of the Crown, and were now being exemplified
by their actions and propositions in that House ? But in
ill-fated Ireland (for ill fated she had always been),
whenever they turned towards the view of her
many grievances, and the fancied remedies, the mere
experiments, which have, from time to time, been
most slowly applied, instead of a systematic and
Statesman-like measure, such as would be calculated at
once to apply a healing salve to her wounds, and to main-
tain the true principles of civil liberty ;—instead of such
measures, they had attempted, bit by bit, here and there,
patchwork propositions which had been of little or no
avail ; and be asserted, and would uphold, that to grant to
a nation one measure of conciliation, however great and
important might be its nature and effects—such, for in-
stance, as the Bill so long fought for, for the relief of the
Roman Catholic disabilities—to do so was not less impo-
litic, less ignorant, and less cruel, than to give to a starv-
ing family the means wherewith to procure one meal, and
then to presume that by that one act, that isolated act of
charity-, they had saved that whole family from future
distress and necessity. He said, then, if this proposed mea-
sure, containing, as it does, every feature of severity and
infliction, was not levelled against the outrages and crimes
only, but against these associations and political unions in
Ireland, or against others, the more immediate patrons of
these meetings, show to the people that whilst they did
this, as purporting to be the law of the land and the will
of Government, they were alike sensible of their distresses,
anti determined, by their remedial propositions to this their
House of Representatives, to endeavour to suggest to Par-
liament, if not first, as he thought they should be, at least
pari passu, with the equal certainty of carrying them
through both Houses, those extensive reforms, the want
of which was, with the agitators themselves, the excuse
for the agitation to which you ascribe these outrages
and this discontent. He saw no other end but that
of tyranny in these measures, and he was reminded o
an eloquent passage of Chatham, who, on a similar occa-
sion, said "It is true that there is violence—that there is ex-
citement—that there is even sedition—but no man can
persuade me that there is not liberty on one side and tyranny
on the other." He was astonished at the language of the
Lion. Member for Leeds, who represented the people as
unfit for liberty ; and at that of the Right Hon. Gentle-
mar., who said that they must be feared in order to be
loved ; and when he heard them using these expressions,
be could hardly persuade himself that these were the men
who, but a few months since, had advocated so eloqnently
the cause of popular Reform. He was not so much asto-
nished at the sentiments which fell from the Right Hon.
Baronet (the Member for Tamworth), for that Right
Hon. Gentleman was but advocating the course which he
had pursued when in office. He had been, however,
astonished at the sentiments expressed by the Noble Lord
(the Paymaster of the Forces), who had not always held
the same language as at present. In a book published by
. _ _ .

the Noble Lord some time since, that Noble Lord had deli-
vered his opinion on public liberty in a manner different
from that in which he had spoken in the House :
" Thus the House of Commons more than once has met,
perfectly disposed to bear its part in passing any measures of
severe coercion, which the Ministers of the day thought fit to
propose. It was thus that, in 1795 and in 1799, laws were
passed to prohibit public meetings without a sufficient autho-
rity, and to prevent printing, unless under certain regulations.
In 1817 these measures were renewed, and in 1819 their seve-
rity has been much increased, The measures resorted to on
these occasions, may be classed under two heads, both of
them sanctioning methods, in my mind, injudicious, and one
extremely dangerous.
" The first is the suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act. Now, this is a very proper precaution, when a con-
spiracy is carried on by a few principal leaders whose

imprisonment puts an end to the plot. But it h no re-
medy at all, when the evil consists in the discontent of some
thousands of unemployed manufacturers. lino avulso non
deficit alter : the subalterns, in conducting these popular
humours, are fully as able and audacious as the chiefs. The other
remedy consists in new laws, restraining the right of speak-

ing and writing. Acta of this kind interpose obstacles
to public meetings and public newspapers, and serve to dim_
countenance, for a time, by the authority of Parliament, the
abuses of liberty which have prevailed. But it is manifest,
that it is impossible to prevent sedition and blasphemy, unless
all freedom of speech and the liberty of the Press be extin-
guished. It is impossible to provide beforehand, by Act of
Parliament, that all speeches and writings shall keep within
the bounds of loyalty and moderation. Therefore the restraining

laws are, except for the moment, inefficient. They are also
pernicious, for they admit a principle, which if pushed to its
full extent, authorizes a censorship of the Press.
" Whilst every opinion may be professed, some will always
be found hostile to religion and to Monarchy ; and whenever
the country is visited with distress, those upon whom misfor-
tune falls, will for a time give a willing ear to any thing which
professes to be a plan for their relief.
" It would seem, however, on the other hand, that we have

now gone as far as it was possible to go safely upon the system
of restraint. If blasphemy and sedition again alarm the timid,
they must be suppressed by the ordinary laws: otherwise we
must either admit a censorship, or surrender the present mode
of trial by Jury.

" It is to be hoped, that rather than adopt either of these
tyrannical expedients, England would impeach the ➢linister
who should give such atrocious advice to his Sovereign.
" It is a consolation, however, to think that if the people of
England are really determined to preserve their liberties, the
laws afford means amply sufficient to quell sedition. They only
require a firm and even hand to exercise them; new Statutes on
the subject of the Press can only be the resort of Statesmen
weak enough to take advantage of it for the destruction of
their country's freedom."

lie objected to the principle of the Bill, and therefore should

. .
net trouble the House with going into any discussions of
its details. He objected to it because the case was not made

out justifying such a measure. He objected to it because
it exhibited this first Reform Parliament in the un-

gracious act of holding over the people a rod of iron, in.
stead of extending towards them the hand of charity.—
(Hear, hear.) He opposad this measure, because he
thought it was contrary to reason—it was adverse to every
principle of benevolence or justice, and utterly at variance
with the sound dictates of reason and morality.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'DWYER said, that in the few observations
with which he meant to trouble the House, he should
endeavour to show the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member
for Tamworth, that the amendment which had been moved
was not quite so silly as he supposed. Its object was, in
fact, to give Parliament the opportunity of knowing
whether the statements of the Noble Lord and the Right
Hon. Gentleman were or were not well founded. The
House had listened to much idle declamation ; he should
now give them a few facts, which, in his opinion, would
he found altogether to controvert those statements. A.
far as the assizes in Ireland had hitherto proceeded, every
allegation of the members of the Government as to the
disturbed state of the country had been negatived ; the
charge of every Judge at every Assizes had been delivered
in support of the principle, that the existing laws were
sufficient to meet the exigencies of the occasion. At the
Clare Assizes, Judge Jebb, who, he believed, would be
proclaimed by gentlemen on the other side of the Hour
as a Judge of the right sort, " congratulated the Jury on
the essential difference between the condition of the county
then and when be bad last addressed them. There was

then a special commission, which had been called for on
account of its disturbed sate, but now it SV!I9 perfectly
peaceable. As to the crimes which he saw in the calendar,
t'i, re were none that might not be expected in every state
and in every country.'—(Hear, hear, hear.) At the
assizes at Meath, a Judge whose character in that House
ht:t
t
At the Longford Assizes, Judee Moore, a prerogative must be well known, and who must be known as one not
violently attached lo popular institutions.—he meant Chief
Justice D ilierty—told the Grand Jury that " nothing ap-
ple Crowne,aredoa theho face, of the ale
for r'nor
observations i n t
from theentriesim i.
law-
yer—he who had sentenced con amore those who refused
to ply tithes—expressed himself to the same effect. He
(Mr. O'Dwyer.) was reminded that the sentences he had
hook to call c,
anndy a•
alluded to were light—perhaps they might be, but they
were passed fur the cause be had mentioned. Judge Moore
congratulated the Grand Jury of the county of Ling•
ford on the quiet state of the county, and hoped to see
a state of peace existing, by the operation of the laws
of the lond, without having recourse to any ineaetire
that were not consistent with the principles of the Consti,
tution.—(Hear, hear.) Then again, the Chief Justice
himself, addressing the Grand Jury of Drogheda, the place
which he (Mr. O'D.) bad the honour to represent, ex-
pressed himself in similar term,. Now Drogheda was lo-
cally situate in the county of Louth—in that very county
in which the Right Hon. Secretary had found so much
cause for asking far extraordinary powers to be conferred
on the Government, because one man had actually refused
another a winnowing machine that had been lent him foe
20 years before.—(A laugh.) He ought to mention bee
sides, that the gaol of Drogheda had not been deliveted
for the last 12 months. He believed that disease dial exist
in it to a considerable extent, but the prisoners were lei:.
there to take their chance of perishing, while the Judge,
who no doubt drew his salrry very regularly, never went
near them to deliver the gaol. That li tie fact would dive
the House some idea of the way in which justice was ad-
minivered in Ireland. But at this town and county of a
town of Drogheda, the Chief Justice thus expressed him-
self—" There are fifty-two prisoners in your calendar;
large number for so peaceable a town and county. ThC
crimes, however, with which they are charged art mot dl
a na'ure to call for any observations from me. Thert, ie
only one charge of murder—a sister is charged witi,
Mg her sister. The rest of the offences are fur petty theft:
and trifling assaults. Ido not find one charge of White.
troyism in the calendar, which is a credit to your town
and county."—(Hear, hear, hear.) Perhaps the House
would think it but natural that there should be
no charge of that sort in a town ; but, then, he ought to
inform them that the jurisdiction of Drogheda, as a
county of a town, was very extensive. After all these
came the charge of Baron Smith. He had no objection
to a Learned Judge writing an essay. It might be a little
too full of antithesis; and it might be one in which the
writer interlarded his little law with epicrammatic
tore, with extracts from the Dunciad, and, forgetful some.
what of his judicial gravity, even with couplets from flu.,
dibras ; and it might be one in which the writer took ‘d-
vantage of the opportunity to vent his spleen on every in-
dividual who had given him annoyance.—(oh !) He WS*
a young roan, and should not have said what he had dondi
but di it the Learned Baron had not only uttered hie
charge, but printed it ; and having done so, and thus made
himself and his observations public property, he had aright
availing himself of the privilege of the House, to treat it as
a document coming from any other quarter. He regarded
it as he did another production of the same kind, when
some men were put upon their trial at Dublin, and a simi-
, far charge was made on the subject of the offence of which
they were accused. He asserted, that it was an unfair
interference with the administration of jurice, an interfer •
once that was absolutely disgraceful. The Baron, however,fal-
sified all the assertions of the Right Hon. Geetlemaa,
about the law of the land not being sufficient. The charge
referred to former disturbances, with the same degree of
feirness with which the Right Hon. Secretary had referred
to a barbarous murder committed twenty years ago, as a
justification for the present measures. Was it, be asked,
fair in that Right Hon. Gentleman thus to appeal to na-
tional prejudices, in a House already sufficiently prejudiced
on this question?—(Oh! Hear, bear.) Baron Smith,
in this charge to the Grand Jury, said, with reference
to the special commission, " In like manner, under
the auspices of the present Jury system, tranquillity
was restored to Clare and to some other counties by
special commission, at which Judges Moore and Jebb pre-
sided." That showed that these extraordinary powers
were not wanted. He should now quote a letter from
the Roman Catholic Primate of Ireland, whose excellent
character eas well known to every body, and whose testi-
mony was entitled to the greatest weight, because he was
not in the least degree an agitator. Indeed lie was opposed
to all interference with politics. He should read that doe
current at length.—(oh, oh.) He moved an adjourn.
went. (The Hon. Member, however, did not persist in
his motion, but continued his speech.) Was it possible
that the House, who had listened attentively to the con-
tents of that box, and who had cheered the Right Hon.
Secretary when he read a foolish ballad—was it possible
that such a House would not listen to the observations of
such a man as Dr. Kelly? The letter was dated on the
25th of February, some days subsequent to that of Sir
Patrick Bellew, which the Right Hon. Secretary had
quoted. There was some matter in the letter that told
as much against him as for him, and therefore he should
read it throughout. It was his duty to give it them
untnutilated. The writer said, "As to the county and
town of Drogheda, which you represent in Parliam, nt, I
hive no hesitation in saying, that a more peaceable place
cannot well be found, notwithstanding the want of em-
ployment, and the extreme misery of a large body of its
inhabitants." The writer proceeded to state that a great
portion of the discontent which existed in Ireland arose
from the expectation excited by the measures of the late
Parliament respecting tithes, and the subsequent enforce-
ment instead of the abolition of tithes. The Catholic
Bishops in Ireland had done all in their power to prohibit
illegal and secret societies, well knowing their injurious
tendency ; but sinless justice was rendered to the Irish
people by redressing their grievances, all such efforts
would be wholly unavailing. If even-handed justice were
rendered to the people, the writer expressed his perfect
confidence that the laws would be respected, and that the
ordinary powers of the Constitution would be found am-
ply sufficient to repress crime, and to preserve the public
peace. Having read several other passages from this do-
cument, the Hon. Member stated that it was in his power
to adduce satisfactory evidence that, although crime. and
turbulence might have increased in Ireland, they had also
increased in England. Of this fact the numerous burn-
ings afforded sufficient proof.—(Hear, hear.) But had
his Majesty's Government come down to that House for
powers respecting England similar to those which they
demanded respecting Ireland ? Adverting to the relations
uetween the labouring and the higher classes in Ireland,
iie admitted that the latter had done their duty. The
cause had been well described by an English writer, Mr.
Bicheno, who stated that the Irish gentry had been
spoiled as a class; that whenever any disturbance or in-
surrection arose in Ireland, in consequence of a pressure
tar tithes or rent, away went the army to quell it; and
the gentry were never left to their own efforts at concilia-
tion. He felt it impossible to contemplate the atrocious nue-
sure introduced by his Majesty's Government without ex-
citement. He contemplated it with the feelings which na-
turally influenced every man who bad a love for the land
of his birth. He contemplated it with an apprehension
hat he should witness a revival of those scenes of cruelty
rud devastation which had been exhibited in Ireland not
many years ago, when that unhappy country was given ty
to all the oppression of magisterial authority, and all the
horrors of martial law._ He would not attempt to enter

into any analysis of the Bill, but he would tell the people of
England that they could not be too much alive to its in-
famous details. It took away from the subject that which
had always been considered as the charter of English li-
.ierty—the Trial by July. It took away from the sub-
ject that invaluable privilege—the Habeas Corpus. It took
away from the subject all the benefits of a legal tribunal,
and surrendered him to all the tender mercies of a court-
martial. He and his friends disclaimed all personal hos-
tility to his Majesty's present Government. On many
points there was and had been a kindred and sympathetic
feeling between them. But if the question were, whether
the Ministry or the Constitution should perish, he would
exclaim, "Let the Ministry perish, but let the Constitu-
tion live !" The former might easily be replaced ; nor
would it be necessary to have recourse to Political Unions
for that purpose. That House must have been very in-
sufficiently reformed if it did not contain many indivi-
i:uals of whom a go d and valuable Government might be
composed. The Hon. and Learned Memt•er concluded by
thanking the House for the kindness with which they had
listened to hitn.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. ATTWOOD rose to move an adjournment.—
(Conflicting cries of " Adjonrii, adjourn ;" Go on,
go on.")
Mr. LEFROY said he was desirous of replying to the
unjust attack which had been made on the character of
one of the Judges of Ireland; but to do so he must quote
documents of some length. He was in the hands of the
House, whether to proceed then, or to defer his statement.
Th were The cries
owes of
more ' Adjourn,loudly renewed.
adjourn,"Lord ALTHORP said he had no objection to adjourn,
is it was nut likely that the discussion could be closed that
night.wndl and " Go on, go
(in,
to.flmeormw
wasa
night, unless, he he trusted, the House
indeed that it might nut be
closed