The Sun.
London, England, 1802-12-03 00:00:00

fur that wi:s hem assumed by any onej ,but
the question with us was since nothing was: to
be gained -to us- by the continuance of the Whi-1

whether we 'were not more

to be secure jri

Peace, thaniby the continuance of the W,►r ? Anti

another question was, whether that Peace was more
likely to be continued by a large Peace Esta.
Mishit-tent, or a reduced one ?--=--a question on which
he apprehended, there was not mach variety of op; ,
Dion. Now, if the ease was as he had stated

and that circumstances required the force proposed*
it [night be askedo• whether this force was not larger
than it was desirable to keep up as a permanent •
Peace Establishment I That it was larger tha'rtwat

desirable
.tti be kept up as a permanent Peace Esta-
blishment in this Country, was true ; at the saute
time, he was ready to confess, it appeared to hint

necessary, that we should keep it up, and even to
increaste it, if the 'circumstances of Europe should
require it ; and this was a point in itself so ob-
vious, that it was unnecessary for him to argue

it. What might hereafter govern His Majes.,
ty's Ministers in the extent of the Force to be

raised or to be kept up, it was impossible for
Trim, at present, to say. They must hereafter)
as they are now, be governed by a genera
view of the circumstances of Eutope. They must •
take a view of the ineroachments, or other ma, •
nifestations of -the hostile spirit of our opponent,
to which Ministers must never be indifferent. He, 2a.
thought it was not enough to say that, under the
present circumstances. of France and of :ill Europe,
it is proper that Great Britain should have the Force
now proposed for the year 1803, and so on in
the year 1804; but that when the Establishment
of the year 1804. shall come to be voted, to core. '
bider the' eircUtustances which may appear then,
without 'being hound by any thing that may be
adopted ; so that we may then diminish or increase
our Force, as circumstances may require. He felt
himself by no means prepared to say that he saw the •
cOndu4 of France in the same point of view with
• the Right Him: Gentleman opposite to him ; but -
both hiimelf and the rest of His Majesty's Ministers
considered it with regret, as they had indeed done
at the moment Peace was concluded ; they had re-
gat:tied the' state of Europe with. dissatisfadion ; but
under a full Consideration of that state, and of 'the .
state also of this Country, they thought it a desire
able thing, on the part of this Country, to try the
experitnent of Peace. It was, in his opinion, de.'
sirable at this time for the Country to try the expe.
riment of continuing that Peace, that was to say,
by all honourable means to continue that Peace, brit
at the same time to prepare, and prepare with,
vigour, for War, if that should becoinC necessary,
in a word, that we should be prepared for either
alternative. But when we said we'should endeavour
to preserve Peace, it must he in the spirit of Peace, a
spirit not, at all derogatory from our Honour, or in-
consistent with our independence, but a spirit 'that.
should not hold out any species of irritation, which'
never could, answer any good end, but must, if put.- .
sued, inevitably lead to hostility. There was another
point which he should shortly. take notice of. It hid
been asked whether Peace, with a War Establish-
ment, %vas mot War ? He had heard that question
more than once in 'that House ; and it was a matter
which agitated some minds out of it ; but if Gen-
defile') considered it'seriously arid fully, they would.
have no diffiCulty in seeing the very great differ.:
cnce between the expellee of Peace-anti War, even
upon the large Peace Establishment now proposed.
Compared With a moderate computation of the cx;
pence of War, it would. make a. difference of from
zo to 2- millions of money a year. . He was'aware
that, many erroneous calculations had been made
upon this subject, but the errors arose from want
of a full and adequate consideration of the Subic&
—l-le had nothing' further to trouble the House
with ; he' only wished to bring back to its consi-
•deration the point with which he began, namely,
that the Hothic did !not usually call for much expla-
nation, in praposal of a Peace Establishment, or of
any Establishment stated to be necessary for the
sateiy of the COuntry ; that such raftice was not
i consistent with that of the best times in the His-
_ tory of this Couotry. . It had been usual in those
; titres to corlde in Ministers, upon such occasionS;
'ant it was not on that ground that he submitted the
'propriety of the present vote ; it was on a ground
which was known to all the world, on the situation
.-tif-. thingS'as they stand ; such ' ground making it
( a a
evident that this CoUraty ought 'to have a large
•Peace . Establishment, culler ..to: prepare for War
e
-m0,., • • - •
with new vigour, if chat should become 'necessary,
- a
,for to preserve ; Peace with.STeurity and-Honoor.
've it'e. CANNING said, - he: hid beard his Noble
riaed-this night 'with verb great pleasure.; and if
the t*ry.S'ech which he had;cietkiered, had preceded
-ithata ,
which gave rise to this-, Debate, he -believed the
'Debate itbeff' would ha've..'been rendered unneces-
i-aary -,''for it edgiven him;:upon most of the topics
{which" it embraced,' perk& SatisfaaiOn. He, how-
4,
e.\('e' r_;:a4.ted entirely with 'the propOsition of set-
eting lietti- the ' Inquiry which produced that
S 1 tech::;. 'if Mitostets• had maintained. an en-
sire illence, as they had -hitherto observed, or
. \
.4 trianireats.v-i a disinehnareon. to enter into a tits-
. cussien of the topics which had- been discussed
to-pight,, he did nor think the ifOuse could have
'b'ean warranted, in. proceeding.iiron* the measure
'now
.prepisea'ro:them;:in 'die damier in .whielt
Ministers'iMiledto hav'e expected. 'He fihsered,
that ')lt'bi'L raid d ' •
1.-- ar lament. o e e to the discussion of Ills
Mejesty's 'Sp'eecla, under circumstances that were
aigreed ei:; be very'alaraning am-HUI-F.O anxiety, as
iwas rreinifesf by the Speech itself ; so muth'sci, that
extraoridinary Armaments- were .deemecito be pikes-
asitrY—Armanients unknown in time of -Peace, and
~.such as never had been before proposed in Thiie of
Peace, :which, 'of course; - required 'explanation.
'Witlethe'explanation given by his 'Noble Friend he
yrolesse.l, , ingsneral; .to he satisfied. His Noble
ikriendi had stated it tiisnci,t usual, in moving for the
~Npy~o,o*
tionliii.Speeela from aiiy'of His 'Majesty's Mini:
',stets.
~ "Undoubtedly, when the Amy or the,Navy
~_p ut:ta,tsOvere. only, of the'usual size, such was the,
pa', lea;ilitit. when a large augmentation was pro_
(pose..,.mu:st liave been exileffea' that some ex.
plaptio? should accompany'iheinorion. He might
~ 1,-.q •
ventkqe rp, affiroa, it was entirely withoueprecedent
.to pr4v.ie.sLich an 41•11,rnaiiatithias the present, With_La , , ;
i . aa.• ,

t• .

teat an!: explana ias whatever. He adverted to Ma I
,Maiesi's Speech, which was expressive of great
anxiety for preparations for our safety. Alla he
adverted alao to thlasentiments expressed by an Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Fox; when that Speech was urdcr
considervinnt In that House, who had declared that he
..tna'd voted for. the Addrea, because it pledged the
7elootc, its his apprehension, to nothing which had a
tent-le:icy to sorgisient
.our Peace Establishment, he
being of opinion, that such Establishment might
tfely be reduced, and avho expressed that opinion
etrongly, by declaring, that tha best way to preserve
Peaceavaa to reduce such Establishment. He alid oot
Imputed/ to his Noble Friend, that he acquiesced in
any-such sentiment, but he atated that, to shop the
necessity' there was for accompanying a Motion
for such an augmentation as this in the Peace Estab-
lishment, with some explanations ; for without some
such exptanatipos, as necessary ground for the in-
crease, there could be none, upon the principles
which Ministers-themselves had declared. Circum-
stances had attended these Estimates, which never
attended any other in time of Peace or War,
which he found himself bound to declare ; that al_
though he approved of the augmentation a,Ylich was
now proposed, the proposal for the augmentation
was originally for three months—the vote of to-
night propos d it for the year. Now he should
wish to ask, wherefore should that vote he con-
tinued for the year ? He admitted that the present
moment was full of care and anxiety to this Coun-
try, with respea to the Affairs of Europe, and that
Parliament could not do better than to assent to a
large Establishment. But then he admitted, that
when such an augmentation was proposed for three
months, the natural expeEtation was that some point
remained to be decided—something of Negotiation
unfinished—some measures to be adopted, which a
large Establishment might he serviceable in bring.
ing to an issue ; and the House would be unwilling
to place Ministers in such a situation, as that for
want of a due force, they might be led to a prema-
ture conclusion of any undecided point. But there
was nothing of this kind here, or if there had been
any change taken place, it must have beers' a change
which has taken place since the discussion of the
King's Speech, in that House. He wished to say
nothilag uncivil to any Member of that House, least
of all to the 'Noble Lord (HAwitassuity) ; but if
there had been no change in circumstances, since
tie discussion of His Majesty's Speech in Parlia-
ment, he must be allowed to lament the flunuation
which has taken place in our Councils, and which
rendered it necessary that this establishment should
be voted for a year insTead of three months. He
would not have it understood that he objected to
the vote, on the contrary he approved it highly ;
but he lamented that such a measure had not been
held forth as necessary before that time, and reasons
assigned for it, before it was proposed. He begged
;cave to subscribe, however, implicitly to what the
Noble Lord had stated In explanation to-nioht, and
Le thought that the debate of thl: evening had
well provoked, because it had produced irorn his
Majesty's Ministers declarations in which he had
the 'highest satisfaBion, and which came from a
Noble Person for whoa-) he bad the most un-
altered affeaion. He rejoiced in toe explana-
tion which had been given, for it would afford
go the people of this Country, a knowledge of their
true situation ; and he was sure, it was in vain to
attempt to describe it less critical that it was ! It
flid nor, however, follow, that Ministers were ad-
vocates for War, by the preparations they were now
making--they might see this Country, at .present,
without such a preparation, in more danger than if
it were in a state of War. Seeing our situation
clearly, it was our business to profit by it ; and if
,we apprehended danger, it was our business to pre-
pare for, and to meet it. And here he must agree
with the gallant Officer on the Bench near him, that
preparations in the present state of Europe, against
the taking of a Ship or two, or some Colony in
the West Indies, would be miserably inadequate
to the situation in which we stood, for that s'ie
ought to he prepared for our danger in its utmost
eiitaemitya-s-We were to prepare, not only for the
pOssible hostility of France, but against the treachery
and perfidy of France—We should be prepared not
for what it was probable she might do, but what it
was possible ahe would endeavour to do—To pre.,
pare ourselves, not only for a possible attack in
some distant Possession, but also to be prepared for
the possible event of an invasion of our home Do-
minion ; not only as the first declaration of War,
but even possibly before any such declaration shall
have been made. He did not pretend to
say what those preparations were, it being
not his habit to consider that branch of the
Executive Government, but he mentioned it in
_ 'general terms, as in his opinion a necessary
caution, leaving. it to those Ministers, who were
most Cor!yersant such subjeas, to take such steps
as might be necessary for such a purpose, always
'wishing it to be understood, that in the force which
we prepared, we colleded it with some reference to
such a possible eztremity. With such sentiments,
it was itnpot;sible that he could objeEt either to the
present, •or any augmentation that could be pro.
posed to our forces : but having said this, he
thought it incumbent on hire to glance at another
subject, in which the speech of his Noble Friend
bad not given hitnt any satisfaetion whatever—he
'team relative to the affairs. of Switzerland. The
Noble Lord would certainly understand him
as having not the slightest intention to allude
tv him personally, if he dropt a single hint tend-
ing to bring into doubt 'the propriety of His
Majesty's Councils upon that subject nothing
:ould be more distant from his intentions than to
convey the slightest disresped of his Noble Friend.
::",lor could he be supposed to allude to any deficiency
tither in the taleoci or the seal of his Noble Friend,
for 'full disehatge of the office which he held.—
VC was well aware no man tendered the Safety and
the Honour 'of this Country more thati the Noble
Lord, but he must neverthelos be adinitted to take
notice of the ~übjetl of Switzerland. "He thought
that the House was epiitlea to expedi same explana-
upon that matter, Which had hitherto been passed
sdaer with a studious Silence: What he wished to know
`was, Whether the and the flonottiof the Coun-
,...
try was an any *Sty committed upon that question, and
f 'cam9ttteil, how, and in what 'marner, had the
filed et eon redeemed? 'Upon that stibjed he irustar,
t'hato -Oer'nows or 'atSome future 'period, an exs,

plari3tion would be given. He could not, however
help again repeating, that it was a Matter much to
be lamented that proper explanations did not accom-
pany such Votes as the present--for they ought to
come from Ministers unsolicited by any Member of
that House. He was satisfied that the circ4m-

stances of Europe required the present Augrnentl-
tion, and, perhaps, greater ; and therefore- it had
hi 9 most cordial concurrence—but he could not late

for it, without this species of explanation.
TN ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that the
course which this Debate had taken was sO extreme-
ly extraordinary, that he felt gre.it difficulty in
()Tering himself to the House, and yet be knew .00t
how to suffer the Debate to Nss unnoticed. It was
mnst extraordinary that persons of the sentiments
wh:ch had been professed to_night, and on former
occasions, should have accompanied those sentiments
with the observations he had heard to_night. A
compliment was expressed by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who spoke last, to His Majesty's Minifters,
for the Vote which they proposed now to the
House, and yet he censured them for observing a per_
leaf silence and reserve, or rather concealment of the
reason they haffor proposing such Vote, which rea-
son, when given, was that which was perfenly
notorious, so that Ministers were censured for
being Filent on what had been already spoken,
reserved on what had beet' already communicated,
and for concealing that which was already notorious,
namely, that they proposed this vote on the suite
of things, as known already to every man i 0 !he
Country. This was certainly very curious ; but
who were they who complained upon this occasion ?
Not those who, by their former declarations had
given them to understand they expefted the Peace
Eotablishment to he reduced, particularly an Hon.
Gentleman, who had on a former occasion declared
himself clearly in favour of a reduced Establishmeot
(Mr. Fox), but who was not present at this mom*.
That Honourable Member had said a great deaLs,ri
the subjuft of . reducing our Establishment, paid
insisted on it, that a large Establishment was likely
to provoke hostilities, and had urged a species
of reasoning which the House did not seem to
assent to. However, if that Honourable Gentleman
were now in the House, complaint against Mini-
sters would come consistently enough from him,
because this Vote was so large. But the complaint
came from those who agreed in the Vote, and
thought it came at the present time with pecu-
liar propriety. If Ministers came and proposed
50,000 men, without any thing extraordinary to
require it, then some explanation might reasonably
be required ; hot to requite explanation of that
which was notorious, and to censure those whose
measures were approved, was a novelty. This
made him turn in- his tw) mind a question, whether
there was not something more in this business than
was brought forward before the House ?—At the
commencement of the Session the House heard a
speech from the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last, an able and an eloquent speech, representing, in
warm language, the 4atigelS of the situation of this
Country, and the necessity of vigorous measures on
our parr, and applauding the Address then proposed ;
and yet now Ministers were to be censured.—li
any Gentleman were to come into the House of
Commons in the. middle of the present dele!te, iie
would be led to suppose there was a vehement op_
position to the measure proposed ; but what would
be the surprise of such a person, when he was told,
that every one of these Gentlemen approved highly
of the measure which their speeches appeared (Acne
lated to condemn.--211ere the House was assembled
on a question in which there was no difference of
opinion, and yet there appeared to be much discontent
—One would suppose there Was something proposed
which called forth the real indignation of some Mem-
bers, and yet what was the end of it ? Why, truly,
that the measure now before the House was just what
they themselves would have proposed, if they had had.
an opportunity of proposing it; which proves to my
mind, said the Learned Gentleman, that if they had
an opportunity of proposing it, you would not have
heard of their Opposition—lt is not then to the
proposal that they' objed, but to the Man who pro.
poses. The great ground of objection with these
Gentlemen is, that they have nothing to objeft to.
Indeed, it has been stated with great candor to.
night, that if Ministers were removed, every thing
would go on very well ; so that after that, there was
no mystery in Gentlemen appearing to censure -Mi.
nisters, though, in their consciences, they were
bound to applaud their measures. Ministers say,
44 We do not" think it advisable to commence hosti.
lity at this time." 4--,, So do says the Right
Hon. Gentleman. Ministers say, 44 But it is pro.
per that we should be prepared for the alternative,
if hostility should become tinavoidable."4,--" So do
I," says the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and yes, by
his manner, one would suppose he held a contrary
opinion. The Learned Gentleman concluded, with
expressing a wish that Gentlemen, while their votes
were for. Administration, their manner should not
appear to be hostile.
Dolor LAWRENCE expressed his dissent from
the sentiments of the Learned Gentletnan.—lt was
the mere artifice of an Orator to take off the at.
teUtion of his audience from die question in debate,
to individuals, who took a part in it. He main.
tained that Ministers.hadnot laid before the House.
proper information, preparatory to this. Vote. He
censured the ptattice- of voting any thing upon the
rumours of NewSpapers ; they were not authentic
sources of information-fit for the proceedings of the
House: they ought 04 vote nothing but on official
information. He did not objed to the vote, but
he feared it might be found too small. He then
took a view of Political Events upon the Continent ;
hinted that France was inereasing•her strength with
the most alatnaing vigilance, while we had been
neglecting 'ours, &c. tor which he disapproved of
the conduct of Mipisters, and .expatiated on the
above topics at considerable length.
After which the question was put and carried,
and'all the Resolutions were read and agreed to.
The eV ANC ELLOR of the EXCIIFQUkR moved,
that the House do. to-rnorrow resolve itself into a
Committee of Ways and Mean.---70.1-4cfeS,.'
He then gave notice, that he should then propnse
the An'n'Ual Malt Duty, and also to raise Five Mil-
lions on Exchequer- Bills, for ;he Service of the en-
•:„ . :
suing.year. - • -
A of an Eleoor of Newcastle.F4er.

Lim, complaining of an undue Return, was pre_
sented.—Ordered for consideration on 24th March.
Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report of the
Irish Militia Bill—Read and agreed to.
At nine o'clock the House adjoerned.