The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-26 00:00:00

vicars-apostolic, thereby making the nation more inde-
cadent of Rome. The Right Honourable Gentleman did
aot always hold these sentiments; for on referring to a
Wiltshire paper, he (Sir G. Grey) found an account of a
meeting held on the 6th of December last at which the
Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed a motion which was
seconded by the Dean of Salisbury, and its tenor was of a
very different nature from the sentiments recently professed
by the Right Hon, Gentleman. The Right Hon. Baronet
here proceeded to read the resolution to which he referred,
and whish commenced by saying that that meeting viewed
with indignation the attempt made by the Court of Rome,
and considered the assumption by a foreign potentate to im-
pose a Roman Catholic hierarchy upon this country was an
unwarrantable assumption of the Royal prerogative, and a
gross insult to the nation.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Such was the resolution proposed by the Right Hon. Gentle-
=sn.—(llear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman cheered
him (Sir G. Grey) as if he still entertained the same
opinions. He could only say, if the Right Hon. Gentleman
did so, he had very imperfectly expressed them in that
House.—(Hear, and laughter.) In pursuance of the reso-
lutions passed at that meeting, an address to the Queen had
been also moved, with a portion only of which he would
trespass on the House.
Mr. S. HERBERT—If the Right Hon. Baronet will allow
me I will save him some trouble. I distinctly refused to sign
the address because I did not concur with it.—(Hear.)
Sir G. GREY said the part which he was about reading
agreed wonderfully with the resolution to which he had al-
ready alluded. (Hear and laughter.) It had been moved
by Mr. Sotheron that a petition should be presented to the
Houses of Lords and Commons, and that petition had been
equally condemnatory of the assumption of the Pope. Now,
if the Right Hon. Gentleman dissented from those docu-
ments there was no record of his dissent in the report of the
proceedings before him.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he (Sir
G. Grey) did not think the Right Hon. Gentleman was the
safest possible guide in that matter.— (Hear and laughter.)
He came then to the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Ripon (Sir James Graham) who had spoken of the act and the
language of the Pope as arrogant- and assuming in the ex-
treme, and had sa,d that it was such a matter as the Go-
vernment could not pass over unnoticed. Bat though the
Right Hon. Baronet had expatiated at great length upon the
subject, he had never told them the course which he, occupy-
ing the distinguished position which he did, would advise
the House to pursue.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
for Abingdon, indeed, recommended the revival of the old
statutes of prceraunire ; but that was a proceeding which the
law officers of the Government did not feel disposed to re-
commend or to adopt, although they believed the introduc-
tion of that Papal brief was a violation of the statute law of
the land. The Hon. Gentleman who last addressed the House
bad recommended diplomatic agency, with a distinct intima-
tion that war was not to be the result ; but even if they had
a diplomatic agent at Rome, all he could do would be to re-
commend the withdrawal of the brief a matter which the I
Roman Catholic Members had told them was impossible.'
The Hon. Member for Plymouth, in the course of his speech,
passed by several essential differences which he ought to
recollect. The organization of which he spoke did not pro-
ceed from a foreign Power. But yet, on that occasion it did
proceed from a foreign Power, and that, toe, without any
eommunication with, or the approval of, the sovereign of
the realm. It had been characterised by a mix-
ture of a temporal and spiritual jurisdiction. An-
other • point was the claim of universal dominion
which distinguised the Papal authority from that of
all other bodies of religionists. He would ask any man
who read the documents, whether there was not a claim to
exercise a temporal and a civil jurisdiction as well as a
spiritual one?—(Hear.) It was impossible to reject that
consideration. It was because that was the act of a foreign
power, parcelling out this country into certain divisions,
without, the authority or consent of the Sovereign—it was
that which had roused the spirit of the people of this coun-
try, and which induced them, like our ancestors, to take mea-
sures to guard the independence of this nation against the
aggression of any foreign power. In no country in Europe
did the interference of the Pope take place without being
in accordance with the State, or in virtue of some direct
municipal law authorising such interference. The Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford
(Mr. Gladstone) bad cited various periods of history in
which vicars-apostolic had been requested to be changed,
but such had never taken place without the sanction and
interference of the British Government. That project had
been entertained for a long time, but it had never been
agreed to without the imposition of such conditions as would
prevent the encroachments or assumptions of the see of
Rome. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon had
said that on a former occasion Sir J. Ilipoesley, being in
communication with the Government and Roman Catholics
in this country, had applied to the Pope to substitute bishops
for vicars-apostolic, which had been refused at the time.
The facts of the case were incorrectiy stated, unintentionally,
he had no doubt, by the Right Hon. Bennet. But even
had it been as described, that would have been no precedent
for what had been done. In the records of the year 1812
he could find no trace of the matter referred to. But he
belieVed he had found upon what the Right Hon. Baronet's
statement had been based. In a speech which Sir J. Hip-
pesley made in 1812 upon a motion of Mr. Grattan's for a
Committee of the whole House on the Catholic claims, he
had entered into a detail of a communication which he had
had some years before with Rome ; but in those
negotiations there had been strict conditions attached ;
and they had been carried on on the principle of perfect do-
mestic security from all foreign encroachment. Sir J. Hip-
pesley had always pointed to a veto as indispensable in any
areangemeu s which might be made. But were they now to
ba told that the Pope was justified in adopting
only that part of the proposition which might suit his own
view, without any reference to the conditions which had
been originally attached to it.—(Hear, hear.) With respect
to the position of the Roman Catholic Church, it should
;ever be forgotten that that Church, unlike the Wesleyan
Conference and the various Dissenting bodies in this country,
claimed dominion over every baptised person. It was
nothing to say that that was an empty claim. The time
enight come when, under favourable circnmstances with the
Church of Rome, unchanging and unchangeable, they might
yet see a Marian persecuticn. In pressing forward that
measure they were acting in strict conformity with the
Act of 1829, which extended full religious equality to our
Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, while it did not leave
them exempt from all restraint in their connexion with the
see of Rome. lle was sure that the distinguished "nen
who had mainly contributed to the attainment of Roman
Catholic emancipation, had never thought of debarring
themselves from the light of asserting the independ-
ence of this nation against the encroachments of Papal
power, as it had been asserted in every period of
our history.—(Hear. hear.) lie said that that was a Bill
opposed to the principle of religions freedom, and one tending
to coerce Roman Catholic... It had been said that the Go-
vernment wculd be bound to vote against the first clause of
that Bill, because in Ireland the adoption of the first clause
would have the same effect as if the two other clauses had
been retained in the measure. Now, he said that that was a
statement unsupported by proof, and in any case he believed
that the Roman Catholics in Ireland had very little season
to feel thankful to the Hon. and Learned Member for Athlone
( Mr. Keogh) for the ingenuity he had displayed in attempt-
ing to show that they were fettered by a clause in the Eman-
cipation Act in a manner which had not been previously ima-
gined.. It had been frequently said in the course of these
debates that that was a quarrel originating in the jealousy
entertained by the prelates of the Established Church towards
the newly-created Catholic hierarchy. But the petitions to
that House, and the addresses to the Crown, which had been
presented from laymen in every part of the country, clearly
showed that the feeling which existed upon the subject was
one of a national character, and that both Churchmen and
Dissenters had felt that aggression, not in their merely reli-
gious capacities, but as Englishmen, animated by the same
spirit which had induced their forefathers to impose barriers
against the encroachments of the see of Rome.- (Hear, hear,
and cries for a division.) The Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite (Mr. Gladstone) had taunted his Noble Friend at the
head of the Government with having deserted upon that oc-
casion -the liberal sentiments he had enunciated on the hust-
ings of the city of London. But let him tell the Right
lion. Gentleman that the citizens cf London had, in their 'ad-
dress to the Throne, clearly expressed their views upon that
ptestion, and that while avowing their uncompromising ad-
herence to the principles of civil and religious liberty, they
had asked,in the name of that very liberty that some measure
should• be adopted for the purpose of putting a restraint on
the exercise of a foreign authority in these realms.—(He- r,
hear, and cries for a division.) In conclusion he should
say that these territorial titles, which were said to be but
empty names, were the badges and symbols of a jurisdiction
claimed to be exercised by the sole and undivided authority
of the 'Court of Rome. What her Majesty's Government
asked them to do was to place the brand of illegality on'those
badges and symbols. They might reject that Bill in accord-
ance With the recommendation and the hopes of his Right
Hon. Friend the Member for Ripon and of those who acted
with him, without any alternative measure having been
offered to them. They might encourage the Court of Rome
to fresh acts of aggression, and lead to the belief, as asserted
by Cardinal Wiseman and others, that the feeling of the
country upon thc, subject was only a temporary and popular
effervescence. They might create what he felt convinced
would be a false impression—that the Commons of England
were indifferent to the honour of the Crown and the inde-
pendence of the nation. But in pursuing that course they
might excite throughout the country that great religious
war which the Hon. Member for Liverpool seemed so eager
to rush into, but which he (Sir G. Grey) for one most ear-
nestly deprecated. They might reject that measure, and
by that means contributed to the introduction of a new Bill,
with far more stringent provisions ; but he sincerely trusted
that they would, on the contrary, maintain on that occasion
the character handed down to them by their ancestors, and
manifest a legitimate jealousy of foreign interference in the
affairs
, this country. He believed that by passing that Bill
by "tire and decisive majority, they would best consult the
honour of the Sovereign, the independence of the country,
and the sacral cause of civil and religious liberty.— (Cheers,
and cries for a division, mingled with calls for Mr. Hatchell,
followed by same laughter.)
The Earl of AIMNDEL and SURREY here rose, but was
informed by
The SPEAKER that he had not then a right to address
the House, as
he Lad already spoken in moving the amend-
ment.
Mr. S. HERBERT said he wished to say a few words upon
a matter which related to himself personally, and which had
been referred to by the RightThu_,n..
for the Home Department. eRi Baronet the Secretary
ght Hon. Baronet had
read two documents for which he had held him (Mr. S.
heard of the other
Herbert) responsible. Now he had objected to the first of
these documents, and he had never ellen
until it bad been read by the Right ononrable Baronet, it I
having, as he supposed, been adopted after he had left the
meeting. What he had done was to have moved the reso-
lution which the Right Hon. Faronet had read—
(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.") He stood by that resolution; but
he had also endeavoured to point out to the meeting, as he
had endeavoured to point out to the House, that a spiritual
aggression ought to be met by spiritual means, and not by
Acts of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. HOWARD rose; amidst loud groans, awl cries for
a division, which for some time rendered him unable to ad-
dress the House. He said that he did not mean to reply at
that moment at any length to the observations of the Right
Hon. Baronet the Secre ary for the Home L.,epartinent.
But he should at once protest most irelignentl v against the
imputation that the Catholics of England aed the sister
country claimed by the institution of a hierarchy any tem-
poral authority. Aid still more in'ignantiv should he pro-
test against the statement of the Right lion. Baronet, that
be was about to place a brand upo one-third of the inhabi-
tants of the British empire.—(Hear, hear, and cries for a
division.) With that notice of what had fallen from the
Right Hon. Baronet, he should for the moment be satisfind.
On the motion for going into Committee on the Bill he
should probably take the liberty of expressing at length
his opinions upon the whole question.—(a
enewed cries for a
division.)
Sir G. GREY said that his Hon. Friend had misunder-
stood him. He had not said anything about branding one-
third of his fellow-subjects. But he had said that those
titles were the badges and symbols of ajuribdiction claimed
S 9 b 9 exercised by virtue of the sole snd_undivided authority