The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

EarIIIOUSE OF LORDS, July 18.
and GREY entered the House shortly before five o'clock,
the Itoewelerh fi;o
seetabeteupeoh.n the Ministerial side of the House, upon
• The Duke of WELLINGTON presented petitions in
favour of the Established Church.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
tkl.
nest &w he Earl of KERRY and other Members brought up a re-
rithe House of Commons that their Lordships would
at'"orf Lord Cloncurry to be examined before the Committee
the Navigation of the River Shannon. Agreed to.
40, r. Per:natives and others brought up the Stannarics Court
the Boroughs Justices Bill, and several other Bills.
ae" tarl GREY presented petitions from Dundee and other
against Church Patronage in Scotland.
,C,APITAL PUNISHMENTS ABOLITION BILL.
pt, Lord SUFFIELD presented petitions in favour of the Ca-
e' Punishments Abolition Bill from several parishes in the
nloeutitY of Essex, after which the Noble Lord proceeded to
second reading of the Bill. In doing so the
el';m°ll the
dentered into a minute detail of the non-
I ~,,4eY or capital punishments, and stated t.hat, the
Itri);h's'ke of crime within the last three years in cases
lvf,`"e eaPital punishments were continued, was 44 per cent.,
it 'ereas, in eases where capital punishments were withdrawn,
v. was tea a-half per cent. The case with respect to con-
kleti°o3 wain the same ration. In cases where capital punish-
ibenasts were continued the convictions were 72 per cent., while in
viVe eases where capital punishments were withdrawn, it was
c' 47 per cent. Crime, therefore, had increased in cases
ea re capital punishments were retained, and diminished in
t 3" where it had been withdrawn. Under such eircum-
htledieenehe trusted their Lordships would agree to the second
Th
Duke of RICHMOND having presided over the
post-off department, which this Bill most materially
it'eted, wished to say a few words. He entirely agreed that
lisnuld be expedient that capital punishment should be abo-
, rd, but when he considered the. vast amount of lettes that
tfot
the4sed through the Post-office daily, he thought they sou,,heht
fore begin by destroying the capital punishment be-
Lett t, Y had agreed upon a secondary punishment.--( Hear.)
roan ettera
.passed through the Post-office daily containing
tiei,Y millions of money, and the regulations of that
letr,tutreent had no doubt sacrificed the security of the
nnv'ers to the speed in which they were assorted and sent
4-4 far
th delivery, but he thought it was not too much to
nlarat they should defer destroying the capital punishment
esent, and more particularly as no inquiry had been
" rt
of Z: in the depament.--( Hear.) He knew the motives
NobleNo Friend, and of those who had on.-
ginned
tete till in the other House tyere most humane,
trworthy, and deserving of great credit ; but whet would
rehenlitits Bill passing
th.e effect upon the manufacturing and commercial interestsr
ants into a law, it being the practice of me
to send up letters from the country containingH ?
anees to meet bills when they should become due
fismtd not stand up as an advocate for capital punishments ;
'Hennes ontrary, he thought capital punishments ought not to
tlieZ,) except in' cases where crime could be prevented, bute
thOlineY should be prepared with a secondary punishment
oottlat that his Noble Friends during the recess, would
Ithiehave Much difficulty in finding ont some punishm n
(te; Tight deter persons from committing these crimes.—
tical" 'ear.) He believed it was the opinion of every prac-
bet, officer in the Post-office, that capital punishment should
yr abolished until a secondary punishment was substituted.
epe,:sco, unt MELBOURNE did not mean to say a word
the - tee Bill in its then stage ; he only rose to protest against
of o°Pinion expressed by the Noble Lord, that no Seeirletialaryd patQtate would carry the law into effect, because a B
Ists3etl the other House. While the law remained unaltered,. it
proe, duty of that officer to administer it ; by granting the
thrrysition, the whole power of the Legislature would be
;VI into the hands of any one House of the Legislature.
art LORD CHANCELLOR said that he must go still
the ti,; tuan his Noble Friend, and protest more strongly against
Pere-etrine, for it would not only throw the power of sus-
soint'e,g the law into the hands of either House, but ab-
e'Y into the hands of any one Member of either
trhi-ele ; that was a short-hand way of legislating
oi it was not vet time to have carried into effect.—
statethe There wasno doubt that by Bills being left in
not that that one was, great difficulty was produced,
to
the Administration, but to the Judges. As
BeBslehadn .t before stated, it would be much better
for the Report, which might be expected early next
nibjeen front the Criminal Law Commissioners. The whole
would then be brought before the consideration of the
discuss, and it would then be in a much more fit state for
remlission than the present. He would support the second
isiovof the Bill, upon the understanding that all. its pro-
Peoi,fhs"uld be struck out except that which abolished the
Pertleent of death for the offence of returning from trans-
, fte°,.n.
readvy words from Lord SUFFIELD in reply, the
for
awas a second time, and ordered to be committed pro
1f
fr a second time.
a. 2'C°NNELL and others from the Commons brought
leave tessage, requesting that Lord Western might have
Pointe ° attend and . give evidence before the Committee ap-
Harveva to
t/slomblethat
inquire into the cause of exclusion of Daniel W.
A "I', 'cl* from the Bar.
informed their mtLord was not present, the Lord Chancellor
own messengers.
an answer would be returned them by
fev.t_hr Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented petitions in
of the Westminster Bank Bill.
Islottine Puke of NEWCASTLE presented petitions from
ehoPamshirel which were in favour of the Established
%,%en, and against the Poor Law Amendment Bill.
4;;;RESPONDENCE BETWEEN EARL GREY
111) THE LORD LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND.
to ,„"411 WHARNCLIFFE then rose pursuant to notice,
Gre, e for a copy of the correspondence between. Earl
the and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, relative to
ro,r-:,oercion Bill.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord ad-
h'i't to the statement he made last night, when he told the
ten °4l Viscount that he could not give his assent. to the in-
tie eeb°.. Coercion
.B.ill, without some further evidence to justify
rt• 'lige of opinion expressed by the Noble Viscount. He
for ,„,1111Y did think the House and the country had a right to call
Tork,e good ground to justify the noble persons who then
Itosecei`! the Administration for the important change they pro-
hill ti,131 the Bill.--( Hear, hear.) On the production of the
col the
before the House, the Noble Earl at the head of the
taeitileriertt, and the Noble and Learned Lord on the wool-
Iteaee uoth stated that it was necessary in its then form for the
Ns and preservation of Ireland. On the same ground it
Nser Year recommended to the House of Commons and
minted When it came to this House it was cheerfully sub-
the N tt? and this year after several questions had been asked,
";ere teule Earl stated that it was the intention of the GoveT-
Nose ° re-enact it with the omission only of the courtmartial.
`thick h The Noble Lord alluded to the history of the Bill,
Whieh e said, went on well to the 23d of June, previous to
itl\r4ble a C°lllMUlliCatioll had been made, with the consent of the
terilberLoird
„,,the.
_Chancellor of the E. xchequer to the Hon.
Duhr °r That communication led the Member
.dab k.i%t In to ask how far the Bill had the consent of the Lord
rols ant for Ireland ?—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentle-
is"a ene "'lent the question was addressed said it had .tear Ire consent of the Lord Licutenarit.—( Hear, hear,
°nter
11'4This led to a dispute which he (Lord Wharncliffe) did
btortish into. So the case stood, and be should say he felt
L~f when he heard that the Noble Lord and the See-
boblier Ire land m had h ld communion with the Member for
hte4nitonll4. jeationll! the case ofe Baron Smith, the parties who had
with that Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
ht e;i3rePletely over-reached.—( Hear. ) Those instances
ruble Lave, Put the parties on their guard.--( Hear.) The
oru should e have given his consent to any coin-
-0411.e7t,11°,3 Whatevernewvitrh the Member for Dublin.. On the
45j 3' this Bill was read the second time. On that
N'obei_tiothing could be found stronger than the speech of
I:4.ess,r3ynd Learned Lord. It was said to be only...notteet
V out v? Pas the Bill, but that it woul bei ienj
ewi
the
oh.o!e Lords, mein clause. He could not copee v
change of
with a knowledge at that time of the ch
therdNye t,le Lord Lieutenant, could. suffer the Noble Earl
x Welrse second reading of the Bill. The wavering of
l'emAnist esicY was known ih the House of Commons ; yet
r:''ng ens allowed the Noble Earl to propose the second
rtailed °vs the Bill in this
.House. Lord Wharncliffe then
418 "e circumstances prn oh the occurrences in the Corn-
N'sed to
the resignation of Lord Althorp, and CI..
Or Part uecided opinion, that the change of opinion on
tlhe Etch Lord Wellesley did not justify the Chancellor
ail a
0
tendering his resignation. The Noble
,4"l4ntioos correctly all the proceedings in the House of
toietue to the resignation of Lord Althorp. The Noble
rnin.,. nation to
that when the Noble Lord had expressed his
t
41 lost ° resign he thought it his duty also to resign,
e Nob! according to his own expression, his right arm.
lvsffihadeni-Ord kept his word. The Noble Lord in the other
Lord h"' ; and that Noble Lord had to prove that he was
proper] as ; olding office. He could not see that the Noble
I4y eatified in his resignation. As the Noble Earl had
ep.nl4.teoant4iid---what consequence was it whether the Lord
ttr0,124 at t4cl changed his opinion. They all changed their
-elati 'res• The Lord Lieutenant finally carae to a de-
Pass„`"e that
•Att for the Bill as it then stood in the House should
)vit, er onh.,e the preservation of peace in II eland. When the
tho tp be explained the Lord Lieutenant concurred
hNtetooris\-ebinet, therefore the Noble Lord in the House of
ko,;) inwas not justified in resigning his office.—( Hear,
I,lcl snyin adverting to the Noble Earl's speech he could not
en
raying !,t Made impression on his mind which had not
//11 had ee• Ile believed that no First Minister of the
I%Zoed e ever been so ill-.treate.d.—( Hear, hear, hear, pro-
or 1.4 b Don the 0 •
pt,b1:17.41 had Opposition side of the Hon' se.) The
It spoken of difficulties thrown in the. way
1te3,40t one smess in that House. He (Lord Wharncliffe)
(lif of th Who had thrown unnecessary obstruction in the
e Nobl
"ith created
Earls measures, and he would say that no
Clie_the ediated on his side of the House could be compared
,Teulties raised by the Noble Lords themselves.—
thliene, Noble Earl told them, and told them truly, that
tehraftohrel)4.blin was not a person to be communicated
innni know,. to shi, would not have had any communication with
h"a.:e of that sentiment, which the Noble Earl was
bthid te mule
ie.xpressed, a Minister of the Crown did corn-
tNept:;ii Public(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Wharncliffe)
no
ter the ic life the Noble Lord (Althorp), and he
tha, Noble
respect for him. He knew the cha-
pWC Lord stood high, and he would add that
11`t,3,
07,b1e `3 equivocal character could have done what
\Vi;2, all °l'd had done It was said he (LordAlthorp)
,I°l thelrs, the person most likely to conduct the bu
si_
ch ) tuitsf !!If ermons. It appeared to him (Lord
,erteini "'LE eNoble Lord had adopted one mode
Y proved successful. The only mode was con-

stant concession.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
conceded every thing in the fear of a motion from the Hon.
Member for Dublin.—( Hear, hear.) That was not the way to
manage the House of Commons. The Noble Lord should not
make concessions. With respect to the Coercion Bill the No-
ble Lord need not have been afraid of losing the support of the
House of Commons. They would have given him all the
powers he could wish to preserve the peace and protect public
property. If they did not they were not the representatives of
the people of England. The way to manage the House of
Commons was not to concede day after day to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dublin, thereby raising him in the estimation of the
discontented in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The duty of the
Noble Lord and the Government was to say to him—Do your
worst. We will not concede anything. We will faithfully
discharge our duty, and give no sanction to agitation.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Viscount spoke in a tone yesterday
which he could not approve, but he should wait for the letter
of the Lord Lieutenant, and if satisfied that it furnished
ground for the abandonment of the Bill then before the House,
he certainly should not oppose the Bill which was to be sub-
stituted. The Noble Lord proceeded to observe that he was
as fully aware of the nature of a private communication as any
of their Lordships ; still, at the same time, he contended that
the letter which was the subject of his present motion should
be laid before the House. With respect to the Coercion Bill
itself, he had no apprehension. The Noble Lord then con-
cluded by putting his motion for the production of certain cor-
respondence between the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and his
Majesty's Government, on the subject of the Bill for the sup-
pression of disturbances in Ireland.
Viscount MELBOURNE said he was free to confess that
he would resist the motion of the Noble Baron for the pro-
duction of the letter in question, on the grounds which had
been anticipated by the Noble Baron himself. That letter
was a private one, and therefore ought not to be produced.
He ( Viscount Melbourne), notwithstanding all that had been
urged by the Noble Baronet, could not see that he adduced
one admissible reason why the letter in question ought to be
produced. He ( Lord Wharpeliffe) had adduced no reason
whatever why his Majesty's Government should do in this case
what had not been done in any former case—why they should
do now what no preceding Government had been called on
to do before. The Noble Baron had adduced no reason
why his Majesty's Ministers should violate the secrecy
and confidence which had been reposed in them. If they
did so ; if the motion of the Noble Baron was agreed to,
and the letter in question produced, the circumstance
would have the effect of preventing all- further confidential
corresponce with Ministers. For his own part, he
would say, that he considered that nothing could be more for
the interests of the Government—nothing could be of greater
advantage to Ministers, or show more clearly the propriety of
the course they had adopted with regard to the measure in
question, than the production of the Lord-Lieutenant's letter.
He would not, however, assent any further to what the Noble
Baron had said respecting the production of that letter : but
he begged to make a few observations in reference to what had
fallen from the Noble Baron on other topics. He ( Viscount
Melbourne) must admit—which he most willingly did—that
the speech of the Noble Baron was a candid speech, and that
on the whole it contained a fair and accurate statement of the
circumstances which led to the breaking up of the late Admi-
nistration. He must, however, say, that the Noble Baron had
mixed up his statements with reflections and interrogations re-
specting the Noble Lord who filled the office of the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, which were not merited or justified by
the facts of the case. The Noble Baron, while his statements
were perfectly fair, drew unfounded inferences from those
statements, in so far as his Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) was
concerned. It was perfectly true, as stated by the Noble
Baron, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did authorize
the Secretary for Ireland to make a communication to the
Member for Dublin respecting the views and intentions of
Ministers with reference to the renewal of the Coercion Bill.
It was true that his ( Viscount Melbourne's) Noble Friend
did authorize the Secretary for Ireland to inform the Member
for Dublin, that the Bill which his Majesty's Ministers were
to bring in this year for the suppression of disturbances in
Ireland, would not be the same as the measure which had
been introduced last Session of Parliament. But that was
the whole extent which the Noble Lord authorized Mr. Lit-
tleton to go in his communication with Mr. O'Connell. Mr.
Littleton, however, went much farther ; in fact, to such an
extent did he disclose the secrets of the Cabinet, that the
Noble Lord, after such disclosures, found it would be im-
possible to carry the measure as it then stood. His Noble
Friend had been blamed for authorizing the Secretary for
Ireland to hold any communication whatever with the Mem-
ber for Dublin ; but the blame was unmerited ; for it would
be altogether impossible to carry on the business of the
country without occasionally communicating with the Mem-
ber for Dublin, or with other Members on that Gentle-
man's side of the House. His ( Viscount Melbourne's)
Noble Friend had also been reproached by the Noble Baron
with a want of accuracy in having stated in the other House
of Parliament, that the Members of the Cabinet were
unanimously agreed as to the propriety and necessity of
passing the Coercion Bill in the form in which it had been
introduced to their Lordship's House by the Noble Earl
(Grey) opposite, the fact having since transpired that there
was a dissension amongst them as to the propriety of inserting
the clauses which are now proposed to be withdrawn. That
reproach was unmerited and unjust. It was quite true that
when the measure was first brought under the consideration of
the Cabinet, there did exist a difference of opinion among the
Members as to the propriety of introducing the clauses in
question ; but the minority yielded to the majority ; they con-
curred in the propriety of introducing those clauses, and there-
fore his Noble Friend was perfectly justified in making the
statement which he did—that the Bill was brought in with
the unanimous consent of the Cabinet. Under these circum-
stances it was that the Bill was brought in ; and it was then
that the Noble Lord discovered, for the first time, the extent
of the communication which the Secretary for Ireland had
made to the Member for Dublin.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord at once saw, as he ( Viscount Melbourne) had already
stated that that communication most not only embarrass
the Gove: nment, but render it impossible for him to carry
the measure through the other House of Parliament, and
therefore it was that his Noble Friend came to the resolution
of tendering to his Majesty his resignation of office. He
(Viscount Melbourne) was ready to admit that the Noble
Lord had acted under a too vivid susceptibility of feeling in
thus resigning office. The Noble Earl late at the head cf his
Majesty's Government, finding the Noble Lord determined to
resign, also came to the determination of tendering his resig-
nation, an event which they must all deplore, and which had
led to so many difficulties, and so much embarrassment in the
councils of his Majesty. It would be in the remembrance of
their Lordships that the Noble Lord ( Althorp) had stated
that the difficulty which he apprehended in conducting the
Bill through the other House of Parliament arose from the
clauses which were now proposed to be withdrawn. The with-
drawal of those clauses, therefore, having removed the difficulty,
the causes which led to the resignation of the Noble Lord no
longer existed, and he could therefore resume office without any
compromise of his consistency. There had been great talk
among certain Noble Lords about delicacy of feeling with
regard to the acceptance of office on the part of his Noble
Friend, as it was his resignation • that led to that of the
Noble Earl late at the head of the Government. He (Vis-
count Melbourne) would ask those Noble Lords who *ere
pleased to talk in this way, whether it was not the Noble
Lord's duty to accept office, when called to it at such a crisis
as the present, both by his Sovereign and his country.--
( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches, mingled with faint
cheers from the Opposition.) The Noble Baron had said
that the character of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for-
tunately for himself, was good; and that his good character
had, in the present case, stood him in stead.—( Hear, hear.)
With the eulogium which the Noble Baron thus • pro-
nounced on the character of his ( Viscount Melbourne's)
Noble Friend, he need not say that he cordially con-
curred.—(Hear, hear.) His (Lord Althorp's) character
was undoubtedly unimpeachable ; and it was his good cha-
racter that led him to respond to the call of his Sove-
reign and his country, at the present crisis. With regard to
the Bill, he ( Viscount Melbourne) must admit that it was be-
set with great difficulties. He would confess that he never
knew a government placed in greater difficulties with regard to
any measure. However, after the most mature deliberation,
he and his colleagues thought that the course they had adopted
was the most respectful towards their Lordships which they
could have chosen. They thought it most respectful to their
Lordships to abandon the Bill, as it previously stood ; be-
cause, had they proceeded to the third reading, Noble Lords
opposite would have been sure to ask whether they (the Mi-
nisters) meant to carry it ? and they must have answered
" No." (Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side of the
House.) Noble Lords, in that case, would have complained,
and justly, of a want of respect to them, in asking them to
concur in the third reading of the Bill,which they either could
not, or did not mean to carry through the other House of
Parliament. His Majesty's Government were placed in this
situation of difficulty and embarrassment, in consequence
of circumstances having occurred to prevent them acting
in reference to the measure in the manner first proposed.
With respect to the production of the letter from the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland to the Noble Earl late at the head of
his Majesty's Government, for which the Noble Baron had
moved, he (Viscount Melbourne) begged to assure the Noble
Baron that, in point of fact, it could not be produced. It was
a private letter ; and supposing the motion of the Noble Baron
to be carried, his object would not be accomplished ; for it
was not in any of the public offices ; and if every one was ap-
plied to for it, the answer of the several persons in those
offices would be," It is not here." It could not be produced
without the consent of the individual who wrote it; and he
( Viscount Melbourne) knew that the Noble Marquis (the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland) would never so far be guilty of
a dereliction of his duty to his Sovereign and his country, as
to agree to the production of it.--( Hear, hear.) There
must be the greatest confidence between Government and
its servants, in the communications which passed
between them as to certain measures ; and it would be impossible for an Administration to carry on the business of
the country if private correspondence was given up. He was
aware that there were precedents for the production of pri-
vate correspondence ; but these occurred in troublous times,
when men's minds were heated ; and he was persuaded that
their Lordships had no wish in this case, to follow those doubt-
ful precedents. It was the law and custom in criminal cases
to force the production of private letters ; but their Lordships
need not be told that the circumstances of the case be-
fore them were altogether different. The Noble Baron had
not made out a proper case, and therefore he ( Viscount Mel-
bourne) would oppose his motion.
Lord ELLENB °ROUGH said the statements con-
tained in the speech which the Noble Viscount had just
addressed to their Lordships were utterly irreconcilea'ole
with the statements which he had formerly made on the sub-
ject. The Noble Viscount now stated that the differences
which previously existed in the Cabinet on the subject of the

Coercion Bill, were healed at the time the Chancellor of the
Exchequer made a statement to that effect in the other House.
He (Lord E.) thought there was a discrepancy between this
statement and tint which the Noble Viscount formerly made.
The Noble Viscount had also stated that, on a certain occasion
last month, the Secretary for Ireland had communicated to
Mr. O'Connell the contents of a letter which had been re-
ceived by a Member of the Government from the Lord Lieu-
tenant of that country. It was impossible that the contents
of the letter in question could have been divulged at the time
referred to; for that would have been on the 10th of June,
which was the day before the letter was written.._..( Laughter.)
These discrepancies must be corrected. The circumstances,
taken altogether, showed that sane person must have been
in communication with the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
After the speech which the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) had
made last night, he (Lord Ellenborough) did not think that
there existed groands for demanding the production of the
letter in question. The speech of the Noble Viscount, how-
CN cr, had induced him to change his opinion ; but as lie ( Vis-
count Melbourne) had stated that the document was not to be
found in any of the public offices, he did not mean to press
the motion of his Noble Friend. Still he thought, that as this
letter was made the ground for the new measure about to be
brought forward, they (their Lordships) had as good a right
to the production of a letter as they had to that of the 18th of
April, which was the ground of the former measure. But as
the letter was not to be got at, he would not, as he had just
stated, press the motion of his Noble Friend, as far as lie (Lord
Ellenborough) was personally concerned; but, in common
fairness, it ought to be produced.
Earl GREY said—With regard to the speech which the
Noble Earl (Wicklow) opposite made last night, lie must say
that it was generally correct in its statement of facts. But
the Noble Earl had made comments on those statements which
were altogether unwarranted. The Noble Earl said that he
(Earl Grey) had complained of having been betrayed by a
Member of the Government. The Noble Earl added, that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the individual who had
done so. He (Earl Grey) had not made use of such language.
He accused no one—he blamed nobody. He did not complain
of being- ill-treated by anybody, for no one desired to treat him
ill ; but he had stated that a communication had been addressed
to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland without his permission, and
also that the Secretary for that country had communicated
with the Member for Dublin, on matters which ought never to
have been known but by the Members of the Cabinet ; and
that if he (Earl Grey) had known of the circumstances before-
hand, he would have prevented such communications as far as
possible. While he said this, he wished that no conclusions
unfavourable to anybody should be drawn from it,—because
he was satisfied those communications were made with the
best intentions.—( Hear.) With regard to the accuracy of
dates he would not be answerable ; but he would be an-
swerable for the fact, that until the 20th of June he was
not aware of any difference of opinion in the Cabinet on
the subject of the Coercion Bill, except with respect to the
courtmartial clauses. As to the propriety or necessity of re-
taining these clauses, there did exist a difference of opinion in
the Cabinet, and therefore it was that the Bill was introduced
without them. On the 19th of June, he (Earl Grey) had in-
structed the Attorney-General to draw out the Bill in such a
way as Ethould there be as little room for discussion as possible,
except 'with regard to the courtmartial clauses. This was a
plain statement of the facts of the case. As he had before
stated, he had determined some time since to resign the situ-
ation he held in the Councils of his Majesty, as he felt himself
unable to sustain the burdens of office ; and the circumstances
which had occurred in reference to this Bill only hastened the
accomplishment of this determination. With regard to what
had been said by his Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) in the
other House, he (Earl Grey) begged to say, that he felt the
importance of his character to any administration, and that
when the Ministry was to be re-constructed he pressed on his
Noble Friend to retract the resolution he had formed to retire
from office, and to respond to the call of his Sovereign
and his country to continue in it. It was in compliance
with this call, and because he (Earl Grey) told him how
anxiously he wished it, that the Noble Lord did yield,
and again submitted to encounter the cares of office. No
man was ever placed in greater difficulties than the Noble
Lord. He ( Earl Grey) knew that the vulgar representation
was that his Noble Friend was desirous of holding office. That
was the obloquy which public men had often to encounter. He
(Earl Grey) told his Noble Friend that, at the present crisis,
called to it as he was both by Sovereign and his country, it
was his duty to remain in office, however great the personal
inconvenience and risk to himself; and that he ought not to
regard any misrepresentation that might be made of his mo-
tives. He came to the determination to follow my advice, and
that determination was strengthened and confirmed by the ad-
dress of the House of Commons. He (Earl Grey) trusted
that the Ministry, as re-constructed, would continue
united together, and would carry on the Government on
the same principles as formerly. With respect to the
motion of the Noble Baron, it was not necessary that
he (Earl Grey) should. say much, as the Noble Baron
( Ellenborough) had admitted that their Lordships had no right
to demand the production of the letter. It was a private letter ;
and he (Earl Grey) would not give it up to any one, without
the consent of the Noble Marquis who wrote it. His
Noble Friend (Viscount Melbourne) had stated truly, that to
give up the letter would be a violation of secrecy and confi-
dence, and that no Government could be carried on if such a
violation of confidence were to be made. It had been stated
that the present measure bad been grouneed on this letter.
All he should say on this part of the subject was, that he still
retained the opinion he had formerly expressed, that the clauses
which it was proposed to withdraw ought to be retained.—
(Immense cheering from the Opposition benches.) Still he
would vote for the measure about to be produced ; and he
thought it would be the more becoming course, both to the
House and to the Sovereign, to see what the measures of the
Government were to be, before Noble Lords endeavoured to
embarrass them. That Government had been framed under
great difficulties ; and if Noble Lords were dissatisfied with it,
the best, and most manly course would be at once to move an
address to his Majesty, praying him to dismiss his present
Ministers from his Councils. The House, he repeated,
had no right to call for the production of the letter in
question. Private correspondence ought ever to be held
sacred.
The Earl of WICKLOW said that there was a great con-
trast between the speech of the Noble Earl who had just
spoken, and that of the Noble and Learned Lord on the wool-
sack, which their Lordships had heard last night. The Noble
Earl still adhered to his former opinions.
The LORD CHANCELLOR wished to conclude the
debate, as the letter for the production of which the Noble
Baron moved was not to be found in any of the public offices.
They had therefore no more right to that letter than to any
species of private property. He need not say then that he
did not rise to prolong the discussion on that subject., but to
protest against the charge, the alleged charge, of inconsis-
tency which the Noble Earl ( Wicklow) had preferred against
him in reference to the Bill. The Noble Earl might, if he
liked, anticipate that he (the Lord Chancellor) would support
the Bill when it was brought up from the other House ; but
what was the inconsistency of doing so, when they were told
that it was not in consequence of the Lord Lieutenant's
letter that the Government thought proper to omit those
clauses ? Where was the inconsistency, when they Were
told by the Noble Earl lately at the head of his Majesty's
Government, in a speech distinguished for candour, man-
liness, and propriety—in a speech which, he would say, was
worthy of the Noble Earl himself, and that he was sure
was the loftiest eulogy which could be passed upon it by
any human being--( Hear, hear)—a speech dictated by the
most honourable and most disinterested feelings—( Hear,
hear)--and by a pure desire for the service of his country,
and sincere good will to that Administration of which he lately
formed the brightest ornament—( Cheers)—when they were
told, by that Noble Earl, that it was not in consequence of
the Lord Lieutenant's letter that the clauses were given up,
but on account of the disclosures afterwards made, to which
reference had been made last night by the Noble President of
the Council, and which rendered it hopeless that those clauses
should be carried through the other House of Parliament.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl himself, while he said that
those clauses were the most important part of the Bill—a
length to which he (the Lord Chancellor) never went, though
he admitted that they were an important part of it—while he
(Earl Grey) admitted that there was a degree of inconsist-
ency in exempting those who created the disturbances in towns
from the operation of the Bill, while it pressed so heavily on
those guilty of country disturbances, nevertheless admitted,
and admitted candidly and honourably, that in the difficult cir-
cumstances under which the Government was placed, he would
have taken the same course as that adopted by the Noble
Viscount.—( Hear, hear. )
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM then said, that as far as he
could comprehend the meaning of the Noble and Learned
Lord on the woolsack, it was this—that the change in the
intentions of the Government was owing to the confidence
placed by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland in Mr. O'Con-
nell, because, in consequence of that confidence, it became
evident that they should have failed in getting those clauses
through the other House. If that were the case, he could not
but repeat the question put on the previous night, by a Noble
Friend of his, namely—if Mr. Littleton was still Secretary for.
Ireland?
Lord MELBOURNE—Yes.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE then replied, and said that it was
impossible for him to persist in his motion, after the speech
made by the Noble Lord opposite. He disclaimed having
made the motion with the intention, or for the purpose, of
en barrassing the Government. So far was that from being
the case, that he felt that they had a great difficulty to contend
with, and nothing but a sense of duty could have induced him
to make the motion. In the circumstances he begged leave
to withdraw it.
The motion was then withdraWn.
The House adjourned at a quarter-past eight o'clock.

HOUSE_ OF COJIIMONS, July 18.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at twenty minutes past five
o'clock.

A Message from the Lords announced that their Lordships
had agreed to the Welland Navigation Bill, and other private
Bills.

Upon the motion of Mr. BUCKINGHAM, a return was
ordered of the number, with the names and descriptions of all
packet vessels that had been lost since the Packet Establish-
ment was transposed to the Admiralty, with the circumstances
attending the same.
Mr. GRO TE presented a petition from a person named J:
Stockdale in favour of the Bill for the Abolition of Impri-
sonment for Debt. The Hon. Member also moved an address
to his Majesty, to request that there might be laid before the
House a copy of the commitments upon the Criminal Laws.
Mr. WILBRAHAM presented a petition from the town of
Northwick, in support of the Established Church.
Mr. F. PALMER presented a petition from the town of