The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, FEBRUAR

IMPERI

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb 12.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday,
PETITIONS.

Colonel PENNANT presented petitions from the inhabi.
tants of the parishes of Eitionydd and Bodfern, in the county
of Carnarvon, against Papal aggression.
Mr. FARNHAM presented two petitions from the county
of Leicester against Papal aggression.
Mr. PLUMPTRE presented a petition from the congre-
gations of Dissenters at Portsea, I.andport, and Gosport,
against Papal aggression.
Sir ALEXI.NDER HOOD presented petitions against
Papal aggression from several parishes in the county of
&Dm erset.

Mr. MOODY presented petitions from a Dissenting con-
gregation at Yeovil, from Norton and Pendomer, against the
Papal aggression, and from Pendomer against the admission
of Jews into Parliament.
Sir JOHN TRULLOPE presented a petition from tenant-
farmers of Holbeach, Lincolnshire, praying to be relieved
from Schedule B of the income-tax, by its total abolition;
from Welbourn, Colsterworth, Carrington, and Frithoville
again.* Papal aggression; and from solicitors at Holbeacl:
against the certificate duty.
Mr. SMYTHE presented thirty-two petitions from pa-
rishes in York in favour of the repeal of the window duty,
and one from York against Papal aggression.
Lord CLAUD HAMILTON presented petitions from
Favonagal, Billy Faddy, and from the parishes of Newton
Saville and Donagheady, in the county of Tyrone, praying
that Ireland may be included in any mesure passed to repel
Papal aggression.

SUPPLY.
The House then went through Committee of Supply.
PAPAL AGGRESSION—ADJOURNED
DEBATE.

The order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate
having been read,
Mr. P. HOWARD observed that if a retrograde step were
takes in this country, such as was proposed by the measure
of the Government with regard to the recent measures of the
Pope, he knew not where it could be stopped. Although
the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for .Nortletn-
berland had stated there was an unanimous feeling through-
out the country against those measures, no mseting
on the subject had been called in the great county
cif Lancaster, but that great mart of manufacturing
industry had looked on with philosophic calmness and repose,
and waited with patience until the time when truth should
prevail.—(Hear, hear.) In many other of the large towns in
the kingdom there had been an exhibition of feeling directly
against memoralising the Queen. In Leeds the town council
considered that any interference by the Government would
be a violation of that religious freedom which prevailed in
this country, and in several other places the same feeling
was exhibited. As there had been no violation of the law,
how could it be said there was any aggression? The law
officers of the Crown had not been enabled to find oat any
statute which made these proceedings of the Roman Catho-
lics illegal, and were they to retrograde in their policy in
order to pass pains and penalties on certain religious forms
of worship of a large body of her Majesty's subjects? It had
been said that the Synod of Thurles had interfered with reli-
gious liberty by making certain suggestions relative to the
education of the people; but the House would recollect that
wleen the Right Hon. Getleman, the late Home Secretary
(Sir James Graham), introduced a general measure of edu-
cation, it was opposed by the Wesleyan body, who, together
with other religious bodies, was mainly instrumental in
throwing out the measure. He alluded to that circumstance
to prove that other religious sects had expressed as decided
opinions on the question of national education as the Synod
of Thurles. It was the opinion of Lord Castlereagh that
the institution of bishops was a beneficial substitution for the
immediate superintendence of the See of Rome. In his
letter the Supreme Pope had addressed himself to the
Catholics alone of this country, and in his relation
as their spiritual father. It was his anxiety for
the spiritual welfare of the Catholics that he had
written this letter, and not from any desire for territorial ag-
gression. This country had obtained Canada by a treaty
stipulating to maintain the Catholic religion, and it was as
much the established religion there as the Protestant reli-
gion was here. England was not the only country where
bishops of a foreign nation were established—Constantinople
had a patriarch for the Greek, Latin, and Syriac rite. The ad-
dress of the Cardinal-Archbishop was directed only to the
Catholic archbishops, and it was, an axiom that a document
only applied to those to whom it was addressed ; and, if he
might without impiety quote it, the highest of all authorities
had laid down a rule by which the application of it might
be interpreted—" Whose image and superscription is this ?"
With regard to the measure, and that particular part of it
which interfered with charitable bequests, with the rela-
tions between man and his pastor, he could only
say that the law officers of the Crown would find
not only their intellectual ingenuity, but their physi-
cal endurance, tried to maintain this enactment.—(Hear.)
He would ask them as Englishmen to say whether they
would be content to pay for rights without receiving the in-
dulgence to which they were entitled?—(Hear, hear.)
Humble as he was, he had to the best of his ability replied
to, and he thought answered, the speech of the First Minis-
ter of the Crown. He had not violated the sanctity of re-
ligion, he had in no respect, so far as he was aware,
in any way interfered with or offended the feelings of any
sect or party—(Hear, hear )—but he would have violated his
own conscience if he had not, while injuring no other creed,
to the best of his ability defended his own.—(Loud cheers.)
Colonel TROMP OR rose, but was anticipated by
Mr..NAPIER, who said that it was a singular circumstance
that this was the third time that they had been called upon
to consider whether they should legislate respecting the as-
sumptions cf the Roman Catholic bodies of this
country.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that a good an-
swer bad been given by the address of the Prime Minister of
the Crown to any doubt that might be entertained on the
subject.-- (Hear, hear.) They were called upon by the very
terms of the motion to assert that they were bound not to
interfere with the religious liberty of any portion of her
Majesty's subjects —(Hear, hear.) He had heard this ag-
gressive Act of the Pope excused, palliated, and in some cases
indirectly denied, but from no quarter had he heard it de-
fended.—(Hear, hear.) It was, in fact, without any right
for defence, for it was, if considered with reference either to
the common or statute law of the realm, totally oosed to
the British Constitution.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") The
Government were eerfectly justified in the introduction of
this measure, for the aggression of the Pope was equally in-
jurious to the feelings and interests of the people and to the
Church in England, to the welfare of the nation at large.—
( Heir, hear.) From all the reading which he had enjoyed,
from all the interests which had expressed their opinions, and
still more from an authority higher than all—from one who
had left the privacy of his retirement and the enjoyment of
hie leisure to state his opinion in public, for the common
benefit—he had learned that this fact of the interference of a
foreign sovereign was altogether unjustifiable. —( Hear, hear.)
The authority to which he had alluded was Sir Edward Sug-
den, than whom a more erudite lawyer or able judge did not
exist.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if that was the case, were the
Government not right in bringing in a measure to repress
that aggression? (The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then
cited the words used by Sir E. Sugden in his condemnation
of the act of the Pope, and was loudly cheered at the end of
the quotation which he made from Sir Edward's speech.)
Some Hon. Members had said that the law bad not been
violated, ethers that a law could not be made, and others
again, bolder still, had asserted that if a law was made it
would never be obeyed. He (Mr. Napier) said that the
law should be obeyed.—(Hear, hear.) If the present act of
the Pope was contrary to British law and the British
Constitution, which he believed it was, but yet
the means necessary to repress the aggression were insuf-
ficient, then was it requisite to pass another law which would
confer the powers ample enough to obviate the evils to
which they were likely to be subjected.—(Hear, hear.) The
conferring of such powers was necessary, not only for the
safety of the churches in England and Ireland; but he might
fearlessly assert for the welfare of the whole world.—(Loud
cheers.) It was necessary for the Church, it was necessary
for the State, it was necessary for the people, but above all it
would be a measure most merciful to the Roman Catholic
laity themselves.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) He believed
that for the sake of religious liberty they were bound to
abide by the law of l''29.—(Hear, hear.) However much
he had been opposed to the pa:sing of that Act, he still felt
that it was requisite for all parties that they should abide
by its provisions. The Hon. Members for Sheffield and Man-
chester had loudly declaimed against the proposition of the
Minister. What did they mean by religious liberty? If
they meant the exercise of the most bigotted intolerance he
would be able to understand them, but it their words were to
be taken in the literal sense of the terms in which they were
uttered, he must confess that he was totally unable to recon-
cile their assertions with acknowledged facts.—(Hear, hear.)
He firmly believed that no class was more opposed to the ag-
greesive act than the Roman Catholic laity themselves.—
( Hear, hear.) He had the other day met two cf his own.
constituents, who had stated that from their own
knowledge they could say that the attempt to
coerce their minds and consciences was to a groat
portion of the people of Ireland utterly abhorrent, and that
any laws which were calculated to regulate the power of the
Romish priesthood would be a blessing to the country.
—(hear, hear.) An Hon. Member who spoke the other
night, had stated what he believed to be the sums of money
vested in the bishops as trustees; and when twitted upon the
correctness of his assertions, had said that he got his returns
from the Stamp-office. He (Mr. Napier) had inquired
at the Stamp-office, and found that no such returns
could be made there—they Caine from the Prerogative-
office, and they contained only the returns of five bishops;
and the House would, perhaps, be a little surprised to learn
that the Hon. Member had only been mistaken in the amount
of those returns by the trifling sum of 768,3801.—(Laughter.)
This was a specimen of the manner in which an attempt was
often made to mislead the House by a statement of figures.
Tit' lion. and Learned Gentleman then went on to assert
that ever since the passing of the Act of 1839, the Government
patronage had been conferred more on the Roman Catholic than
on the Protestant community, and cited his own profession as
elte instance of the way in which the former had in numerous
instances been preferred to the loss of the latter.—(Cries of
e Oh, oh," and cheers.) Few had been the promotions, he
said, of the Protestant barristers, while he defied any one to
show a single instance inwhich a Roman Catholic of any
standing had been overlooked. Hear.) Equally so was it
the case -with the Itornish Protestant ecclesiastics.
•e bile we believed the Roman Catholict
.:elision to be wholly
~I.;,.:eed to k,rett, and at the same ti pl •
th:}74 evalpthi_e._lrt,e_ad
.of peers of the -realacernt,l purser, .ither that e war.. not limiest, not 'l' our poo-itioncto
4lootfines, or that we were politically° OtoLd their
and we induced the suspicion,
tthem,
Court of Rome, that wo were not in a Ppaessrtittinartl
deal the-
and thus encouraged that Court to set up an
this aggression,
ecclesiastical domination over private liberty and social re_
lations, and everything else which Englishmen ought to
hold dear. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then referred
to a letter written by Lord Clarendon in to Arcfibishon
Murray, requesting him to be the medium of a communi
to the Pope. for the purpose of obtaining his consent
to the carrying out a system of education for the Ree,
man Catholics in Ireland, and condemned the impe_
lice- of a proceeding which had the effect of placing Eng_
land in such a humiliating position before a foreign
state. It was now said that we had encouraged the Pope to
his act of aggression, that we had put Roman Catholic
bishops over peers of the realm, destroyed ten Protestant
dioceses in Ireland, and given a grant of 30,0C0/. of the
public money for the establishment and maintenance
of Mayfiooth College; and it was argued from these
premises that we either had no objection to a re-
ligion with which eve so courted and coquetted, or else
were so afraid of it as to be compelled to succumb to the
Human Catholics. It we were to assume the attitude of an
independent Government, and defend this aggression on the
integrity and honesty of the Constitution, let them, in God's
name, have oome fit irinister " their
lean..
the Sect of the Pope, and aek him 's
and noe'ceonch at
whether the Govern-Lunt of
this country should' administer a evstaem of education to the
people.—(Hear, hear.) Then came
crit of the Pope
to the different Archbishops of IrelaudressihnouPlectober, 1848,
directing that sacerdotal meetings
be held -throughout the country
is d henceforth
accordance

with the rites of the Roman Catholic Church. Dr. Wise-
men stated that among other reasons which led him and
others to believe that no reasonable objection could exist to
the restitution of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, not only in
Ireland had Roman Catholic bishops been recognised, and
even duly honoured, but the same form of govern-
ment had been gradually extended to the greater
part of the colonies. The same view was taken by the
highest prelate of the Established Church, by the Bishop of
Oxford, and the Dean of Bristol ; but if the rational, calm-
minded, and religious people of England, and their
opinion was not to be mistaken, he believed
that the policy adopted in Ireland had encou-
raged the Roman Catholics to do otherwise than
what fair policy ought to have permitted them to have
done, we should take a straightforward course, and tell them
that we think fit to come back to the Liturgy and the
Bible, to the right government and to the constitution of
the country ; and, also, that we shall pursue a right
mode of proceeding for the future.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by stating that he
should give his cordial support to the measure.
111 r. KEOGH said, if he believed this Bill was inconsistent
with the principles of religious toleration, he thought such
an impression must at once be removed, when he saw his
Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for the Univer-
sity of Dublin, whose career had been one independent
course of advocacy of religious liberty, give it his cordial
support.—(Laughter.) That Christian forbearance which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman in and out of the House had
always shown to his Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen,
that peaceful attitude which he at all times presented, not
alone to the people of Ireland but to this House and
the country at large, when he was desirous of
granting religious liberty to the Roman Catholic people,
must have assured the mind of the greatest sceptic. The
course which he took years gone by, he (Mr. Keogh) sup-
posed was no justification at all of a man who thought it
his duty to pronounce strong opinions against the
acts of the Legislature. He had somewhere in the course
of his reading seen the name of Joseph Napier, who was
once the secretary of the Brunswick Club in Ireland—.
(Laughter)—the avowed object of which, the merest tyro in
the political history of the age would recollect, was to set the
acts of the Legislature at defiance, provided they affected the
supposed rights of the Roman Catholic people.—(Hear.) Yet
he came down to the House—a wonderful concession on his
part, and a great exhibition of Christian resignation—and
stated that he had not altered his opinions. He had not
even condescended to say that he had changed one tittle
of his opinions with regard to the Roman Ca-
tholic Emancipation Act. Having done that and other
things which be should presently allude to, he thought
the Hon and Learned Gentleman should not have come
there to lecture Irish Members who felt it their duty to op-
pose the introduction of the Bill, and to read them a lesson
on independence.—(Hear, hear.) He had stated that that
protestation was an exclusion to preferment in Ireland,
but he found that a Roman Catholic could not be a
fellow or scholar at the University of Dublin ; and also
that, out of twelve judges in Ireland, three only were Ro-
man Catholics. Out of five Masters in Chancery, four were
Protestants; out of thirty-three assistant-barristers, twenty-
five were Protestants; and, lastly, that the two judges of the
Bankruptcy Court were Protestants. If the list of stipen-
diary magistrates in Ireland were examined, it would also
be found, he believed, that the proportion against
Roman Catholics was three to one. (Hear, hear.)
All the law officere of the Crown were Protestants.--
(Hear, hear.) Was that equality? The fact was, that
Protestanism was a high qualification for office.—(Hear,
hear.) It had been said that the Catholics were
under their priests; he'denied such a statement, and no one,
he could assure the House, would treat more curtly
any attempt to interfere with his private con-
cerns by Catholic priests than he would.—
(Cheers) He would be the last man to interfers
with the prerogative of the Queen, and the first to assert her
undoubted right to the crown of England. The country might
thank God they had such a Queen on the throne—(Hear)—
one who was determined to support the Church of England.
There was no intention on the part of the Roman Catholics to
insult the country, and the Protestants were bound to believe
in their sincerity.—(Hear, hear.) The Pope had every
reason to believe that his conduct would not be unacceptable
, to the Government of this country, and therefore he could not
be accused of intentionally offering an insult to this country.
So far from the Roman Catholics being ready to submit to
the decisions which had been come to at the Synod of
Thnrles, he could assure the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government that at the very time when this synod was
sitting, there was a movement going on among the
influential Catholics of Dublin against this synod, which was
stopped by the celebrated letter of the Noble Lord. Had
the Noble Lord considered the effect which this measure
would have upon the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland. It
would have the effect of superseding all episcopal functions.
Had the Noble Lord considered this? Was be ready to
frame an indictment against any prelate who might, per-
chance, break this law? They had sufficient laws on the
statute book which were not intended to be
acted upon, but if it was intended to put this law in execu-
tion, was the Noble Lord prepared to consign the Roman
Catholic prelates to the lowest den of felons ? (Cheers.)
Mr. ANSTEY, referring to the feelings of the Roman
Catholics of Ireland, cited the contempt with which
they hat treated a recent bull sent there by the Pope.
The titles which the Roman Catholics bore, and would con-
tinue to bear, whether this Bill passed or not, were not de-
rived from the Pope, but by an unbroken succession from
St. Patrick. He thought the Hon. Gentleman who had just
sat down had made out a case for excepting Ireland from
this Bill in a manner which it was impossible to controvert;
the Papal bull with which they had to deal was ad-
dressed to England alone, and referred to English titles only.
There was one point which had been observed neither by
one side of the House nor the other. The powers of the
vicars-apostolic were continued throughout the whole of
these changes, so that in this respect the Bill was defective
But it was defective in another respect. The Bill provides
that all moneys vested in the Roman Catholic bishops for
charitable purposes should be vested in the Crown. Now
it was perfectly impossible for any court of law or equity
to enforce any writ for the estreating of such trusts, and
even if they could, there would still be another obstacle. No
provision was made fee the direction of moneys arising from
trusts already in existence. Then, with respect to the
power of the svnod to regulate these funds he might cite
the case of the Church of Scotland, a foreign church to all
intents and purposes so far as his argument was concerned.
That church always recognised the power of the temporal
authorities to deal with these funds exclusively of the eccle-
siastical officers, and when the separation took place be-
tween the established Church of Scotland and the seceders
the trusts were all regulated by the usual courts of law. In
three different instances appeals had been made to the Eng-
lish Court of Chancery, and in all of them the authorities
had been compelled to eject every one of the trustees who
had acted in conformity with the trusts which they fulfilled.
—(Hear, hear.) Then, again, with regard to the opinion
which had been expressed, that this edict of the Pope was in
accordance with the feeling of the Roman Catholic clergy,
he would say that such opinion was quite erroneous. Al-
though the clergy were anxious for the elevation of their
faith, they were still opposed to the establishment of any new
authority from a foreign power. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman read extracts from petitions from portions of
that body to the Pope and Cardinal Wiseman, deprecat-
ing any foreign interference, and stating that they desired
a power to make a canon law for themselves, founded upon
the ancient canon law of England, and said that it there-
fore depended upon their present legislation how far such
power should be granted, and how injurious or beneficial it
might become. That power had not been granted, so that
the Romish hierarchy was, after all, only a contemplated
fact ; and the Bill which the Noble rLord proposed to
introduce was not only feeble and ineffectual for the object
which it was intended to effect, but absolutely mischievoue
in its character. He would now proceed to anticipate the
objections which might be made to his remarks. Until
1844 the Indo-Roman Catholic Church was subject to
the Romish Pontiff without any restraint.— (Hear,
hear.) In that year a rescript had been issued
to the Archbishop and clergy of Goa, requesting them to do
certain things which it was now unnecessary to specify.
They felt that without the authority of the temporal power
they could not obey the provision of that rescript, and ap-
pealed to the late Pope Gregory XVI., who on their appli-
cation issued a precept, stating that he should abide by the
rules established by his predecessors, and they all
stated that the coincidence of the temporal power was
absolutely necessary for carrying out any charitable
trusts with which the clergy might be invested.
He should have proposed in the enactment that all bequests
to the Roman Catholic Church in England, both past and in
prospective, should be vested in certain trustees. The ques-
tion before the House was one which made it necessary that
Hon. Members should fall into the same mistake as the
Government, and confound the case of Ireland with that of
lEnglana..—(gear hear.) The English Roman Catholics
were anxious for legislation on the subject, though
not in the spirit of this Bill, while the Irish Roman
Catholics repudiated all legislation whatever which should
interfere with their present status in Ireland, and he thought
both bodies were equally in the right. He should take the
earliest opportunity when the Bill came before the House to
move the omission of every word which related to Ireland,
and propose such amendments as he deemed necessary for
the protection of the liberties, property, and rights of Eng-
lish Roman Catholics.
Great laughter was occasioned by nearly ten Members
rising at the conclusion of the Hon. Gentleman's speech, each
endeavouring to catch the Speaker's eye, but thee-gave way to
Mr. SPOONER, who supported the measure, but depre-
cated any discussion until it bad been laid before the House.
He thanked the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) for his able
and determined letter, and his bold, manly, honest, and con-
stitutional speech, in which he introduced the measure to
the consideration of the House; and he trusted he would ex-
cuse him if he said that the explanation he gave of the Bill,
and the second explanation given by the Attorney-General,
had fallen7coneiderably short of what was generally expected.
He trusted, however, that when the Bill came before the
House it would exceed such explanations, as far as it fell
short of the Noble Lord's letter and his speech.—(Hear.)
If the Noble Lord found himself placed in a position of insur-
mountable difficulty with regard to the passing of a mea-
sure, he should advise him to throw himself on the country,
and if he did so he might rely on the support and confidence
of the people.—(gear, hear.)
whichs ub jlr. A.
ec t
theha' T. B.
had
Member not
for changed.tobservedh e
city
i iy
He
of thatOeOxford
ro
rph
di his opinionshnaedd em f
a thele on
n speech
th thise
question.
of That speech would have well become the repre-
sen
thetprinvatie the University of Oxford, but it ill became
Learned Gentleman who de-
lima" it.-- (Hear, hear.) This measure had no other ten-.
dencv but to compel trie priesthood of Rome to act in
the ',-1,11.1 ; it ?night prevent the publishing of pastoral
letters and such like docomcnts under the signature of
Nicholas, Archbishop of Westminster, in newspapers, but it
would not prevent their being lithographed or printed, and
sent through the Post office.—(Hear.) Of what use was
this Bill then ? It had been dictated by mistaken bigotry,
and he doubted very much whether it really conveyed the
views of the Noble Lord who proposed it.—(Hear.) The
Roman Catholic hierarchy had done nothing which the law
otad touch theme for, and as-they had only sought for and
obtained a position, he contended that it was unfhir to pass
an ex post facto law to meet the case.— (Hear, hear.)
There was one view of the subject which he was rather
authority a k I
surprised had not been more generally dwelt
upon. Bills had already been before Parliament in which
the Pope was recd nisell if and his
g as
_a Sovereign Ponitgi
c now ecied • and it was therefore b
to say new that the Pope h
ad exceeded his legitimate power
in establishing this If
said after this that the Government Nor could it be
Pontiff;
unjust
was ignoront of the fact
that the Pope
claimed spiritual authority over the Roma
Catholics of this county
aggression, that author
t. ludeed, until this alleged Papal
sooth, because there was awag l
never denied, but now, for-
Noble Lord and his Govern little noise out of doors, the
tire?), shut out the past fro:
teirlieti found it convenient to en-
Col. THOMPSON had no wricsohnsideration.—(Hear.)
brethren who professed the Roman Catholic
with his
did really think that an aggression had bee re igion, but he
this instance by the Pope.— __ear n committed in
(Hear hear.) hear.) Som-
lionottrablo Members had asked where '
was
.the
ssion - but, if instead of aakin-
aggre ,
a such questions
they would look for 'in in the right place, they would
find plenty of aggression:—(Cheers.) A French General
brought the rope back to Rome over the dead bodies of his,

. , '

subjects, and, with Waterloo in his memory, he no doubt
advised his Holiness to send a message to England,
or why should there have been in this message
an allusion to the family of James the Second, a
representative of whom, or rather one claiming to
be a representative, was living at this moment in America.
—(Hear.) France knew all this, and so did her Majesty's
Government, for last session he handed them one of the ma-
nifestos of this representative.—(Laughter.) Besides that,
he understocd this representative had, during the three days
of July attempted to pick a quarrel with a member of this
House, while, if he was not mistaken, the representative had
been making kind inquiries after him, because he had made
use of thewords, " obsolete dynasty of the Stuarts."—( Laugh-
ter.) It might have been consolatory or complimentary to
this country had the see of Rome, created one of the members
of the English aristocracy a cardinal ; but no, that would not
do for the French General ; he wished to engage Spain in the
war he had in view, and therefore a Spaniard was
selected for the honour.— (Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.)
Now such things were neither politic nor wise, and the
only construction that he could put upon it was that the
Pope desired to pursue an aggressive course.—(Hear, hear.)
Nor was the part France had taken in the dispute to be ad-
mired, for he had read a statement in L'Univers which re-
presented that the time had come when Protestantism
must be put down by the force of arms.—(Hear, hear.)
He belonged to the society of Methodists, and he happened
to know that branch societies of that body had been estab-
lished, which was perhaps well known. Now just fancy if
these branches, remembering the days of Agincourt, had set
up a claim for the Crown of England to the kingdom of
France, did the House suppose for one moment that their
existence would have been allowed ar, hear.) Would
not the French Government have had a right to view them
with jealousy had they even entertained such a notion?—
(Hear, hear.) Well, then, that was precisely the case here,
arid he for one only regretted that the provisions and penal.
ties of the sth and 13th Elizabeth were not modified and
once more brought into force again.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME expressed his surprise that a man like the
Gallant Colonel, who had always been the friend of civil
and religious liberty, whose every thought and every vote
had, up to this moment, been in favour of Liberalism,
should talk of going back to pains and penalties, and
all because France had been guilty of some insignificant
arrogance.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member
was advocating nothing less than persecution, and be there-
fore could not help fancying that he had linen into some
mistake.— (Hear, hear.) He must have been misled by
what he had heard about America, and he begged and
prayed of the Hon. and Gallant Member to reconsider the
determination he seemed to have come to. - (Hear, hear.)
He had no doubt but that the Pope had been misled by
those men in the English Church who were engaged in
betraying instead of instructing their congregations.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought it was not fair to bring
in a measure of this nature while the laws affecting Ca-
tholics in England, Ireland, and Scotland, were different,
The Noble Lord had called upon them to put down aggres-
sion, but he had not stated what aggression was. He should
have liked to see the Bill which the Noble Lord
had intended originally to have laid on the table;
but it was evident from the speech of the
Attorney-General that the measure about to be
brought in was very different from the measure which the
Noble Lord would have brought in had he laid his Bill on
the table on Friday night. He deprecated the introduction
of any such measure as a measure of per-
secution. He had hoped that the last rag of
this persecution would have been swept away. How could
they hope to reduce taxation by reducing the establish-
ments, whilst they introduced measures that were
irritating to a large portion of the population of Ireland and
the Canaclas ? He agreed with the Hon. Member for Maidstone,
that this was a retrograde measure. They had 45,000 troops
in Ireland; how could they hope to reduce this number if
they by such unjust measures as this irritated the
Irish? Why was it that Ireland was a disgrace to
us ? Why, because we maintained the remnant of these
persecuting laws. The Irish Church was to be maintained,
and the maintainance of the Church was the foundation of
the evils of Ireland, and he found fault with those who
were hounding on the Government to measures of persecution.
Mr. SPOONER denied that he was hounding the Govern-
ment to adopt measures of persecution.
Mr. HLTME asked what then was the meaning of the
speech of the Bon. Gentleman? He wished to express his
deep regret at the encouragement which the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, the leader of the party which
had suffered so much from the "No-Popery" cry, now
seemed ready to hold out to that very spirit of
persecution. The first measure which the Noble Lord ought
to have brought in was one to set his own churchmen in
order what use was it to guard against the wolf without
when there was a wolf within devouring those placed in his
charge? He believed that the temporalities of the Church
had much to do with the present movement. If the
Church had been set in order long ago they never
would have heard any more of Papal aggression. It
appeared to him that the Noble Lord was afraid to trust
his own principles, he was afraid to expose his own faith to
the activity of Roman Catholic priests. But he (Mr.
Hume) believed that there was no moral danger of this sort,
except from the comparison which might be instituted be-
tween the priests of the Roman Catholic and Established
Church. It had astonished him that the Noble Lord
should have taken the step which he had. For his part he
would have tree trade in religion, and let Wm who had the
best defend it. The only way to keep the Church of Eng-
land was to abolish all sinecures and pluralities. It gave
him the greatest pain to see the commencement of a
system opposed to the procceedings of the last twenty-five
years, and more especially commenced by the Noble Lord.
He rose principally to express his opinion that if the Noble
Lord wished to keep the wolves out of the Church, he should
first extirpate those who were already within it. If he did
that he should receive his cordial support; but he would find
himself in greater difficulties than he imagined if he expected
to pass the measure in the shape he proposed.—(Hear.)
Mr. A. OSWALD said in the county of Ayr, which he
represented, not a single meeting had been convened, nor
had a single encouragement been held out to the Noble Lord
to enter upon his present course of proceeding. He trusted
the Noble Lord would meet with no support in Scot-
land. He believed the act of the Pope was purely
a spiritual one, unaccompanied by any temporal
provision, and he was at a loss to see how it could be looked
at in any other light. The Hon. Gentleman alluded to the
Free Church of Scotland, and observed that though the old
dioceses of the Established Church were selected, and a
general assembly periodically held for its more perfect go-
vernment, no interference was made by the Gaverumeut.
Now was there any difference between this act and that
which had been attempted by the Church of Rome ?
( Hear, hear.) The Free Church of Scotland had done
nothing more than that which had been attempted by the
Pope.— (Hear, hear.) Whatever argument applies
to the act of the one authority applies equally
to the other, and he was therefore profoundly
surprised to find that the Noble Lord ( Lord John Russell)
had abandoned all the principles of his whole life. The
precept by which Cardinal Wiseman assumed to himself the
title of Archbishop of Westminster had not been signed by
any regularly constituted authority in this country.
The Noble Lord might draw distinctions between the two
cases, but he confessed himself quite incapable of seeing
any ditlerence between them, and he should like to see
how the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary
at War (Mr. Fox Maule) could reconcile his conduct in' the
one case with his conduct in the other.—(Cheers.) The
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department
said that all England had raised its voice in favour of some
Bill, if nct of this Bill, for the repression of this aggression;
but until he saw that opinion acceded to by his Hon. Friend
the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. Inglis),
and endorsed by the Hon. Member for Warwickshire (ifar.
Spooner), he could not by any means join in that opinion.
The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had complained that the
act of the Pope was an invasion of the supremacy of the
Crown. If the supremacy of the Crown was to be interpreted
as the Noble Lord had interpreted it, then he must say that
it was as gross an act of tyranny as any that he had ever
heard of.—(Cheers.) He could assure the Noble Lord that
there were those on that side of the House who were
quite ready to go over to the other, and who were quite as
able to manage the public affairs as the Noble Lord himself;
and if he persevered in giving this interpretation to the su-
premacy of the Crown he might rest assured that the in-
tolerance which had caused civil broils to be engendered for
nearly 200 years would excite against him an opposition with
which he would never be able to contend,—( Hear, and cheers).
The Noble Lord would not have dared to introduce that mea-
sure unless he had thought that those with whom he (Mr.
Oswald) acted had been irretrievably distressed.—(Hear.
hear.) He assured him that such was not the case, but that
they were prepared to act together.— (Cheers.) By perse-
verance he would arouse the feelings of all those who as
members of the Church of Scotland had themselves
and by their ancestors lost both houses and lands for the
sake of religious liberty.—(Cheers.) As the proposed Bill
now stood it was neither more nor less than an act of the
vilest persecution.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I so far agree with the
observations of the Honourable Member for Montrose
(Mr. Hume) that if the House will give its consent to the
introduction of the measure, I will address now a few
words in reply to what has passed during the
debate. The act against which this Bill is direeted is
contrary to the public law of every country in Europe.
It was not permitted by that law for any potentate to consti-
tute directions for the subjects of any country over which he
does not exercise sovereign authority. Secondly, it is con-
trary to that public authority for any power to be
exercised or any title to be assumed, particularly where it
interferes with royal authority, without the consent
of the Sovereign of such country— (Hear. hear)—
and then I say that what has been done by the Pope in this
respect is contrary to the public law of Europe, and that it
would not have been done with regard to any other country.
With respect to the arguments which have been used
against the introduction of any measure on this subject,
after what has been said by my Honourable and
Learned Friend the Attorney-General, and after the
many other able arguments we have heard in
support of the adoption of some course for re-
pelling this aggression, I will not at present enter fur-
ther upon the discussion of that question. But, Sir, we have
heard arguments from the Hon. Member for Bucks, which
arguments have been enforced by the lion. and Learned
Member for Athlone, for the purpose of showing that we are
not justified in noticing this aggression. These argu-
inents resolve themselves into two points. The first
is a general excuse for the conduct of the Court of Rome,
on the ground that we had by our conduct misled that Court,
and that it was justified in believing that the Government
of this country was not opposed to the establishment of
this hierarchy ; and the other argument resolves itself
into an attack upon the consistency of the different
members of her Majesty's Government, and more
particularly upon that of myself. Now, Sir, with regard to
the first point, I will not recall to the recollection of the
House what passed in 1843 and in 1845, but I will merely
remand the House that anything that might
have passed at Rome during Lord Minto's mis-
sion to that city could not have induced the
Court of Rome to imagine that her Majesty's Ministers
i tonotm t
g y
ui w
e declared
Catholic
sthol iconsente in
episcopal
would consent to the appointment of any hierarchy in this
t
htoi s
an3,sees measure House,
i thatnth theifso
coup try ; for after Lord Minto had left Rome, I myself dis-
tinct;
.nabmisiesnohtmoweanottunlod
of
r countrythe Gv
o eesrt
nusap prehension whatever could have existed on that point
is cleer, for that declaration of mine was well known to all
the Rom: en Catholics in this country immediately that it was
mad" 01:1 4 was no doubt at once communicated to Rome, co
that it impossible any misapprehension could have existed
at the Cot trt of Rome on this subject. It is evident, there-
fore, that this measure was adopted by the Court of Rome
in opposith in to the Government of this country; it was done
in oppeeie ion to the Crown of this country, and
the effect was to erect sees and to give to
the holders of those sees power to govern not in
Edinburgh or Ayrshire, but in Westminster and Middlesex,
and when such was the case the people of Westminster and
Middlesex natth 'ally thought that none ought to have power
to
eee.overn thembut those who were authorised
to do so by the: law of the land. The
Member for Thar:) says, that not only .ilase
Pope erected these new .areltbiehdpncs and bishoprics,
but that he has 6ugoi put an end to the Archbishopric of
at'erbitri an Q the Bishopric of Loudon. Now if that
munaptiou b'e 'arrest, I am at a loss to understand

how it can be contended that there is nothing in
this to interfere with the rights and dignity of the Crown.
I come now to another point which has been urged
by the Hon. Member for Athlone, namely, that this
measure is totally inconsistent with my tamer decla-
rations.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I am not about to
say that it is not so, or that my former declaration
did not amount to this, that I thought it was puerile and
childish to fear anything from the pretension of the Pope to
create English bishops or archbishops—(Hear)—or that
that opinion is consistent with those opinions which
I now entertain and have just pronounced. (Hear, hear.)
But, Sir, I think I am justified in saying this, that what-
ever may have been my confidence in respect to the Roman
Catholic ecclesiastics—whatever may have been my
confidence with respect to the conduct of the
Pope—l have found since that time that that
confidence was misplaced—(Cheers)—and I therefore
thought it better clearly and plainly to avow that I
was mistaken in the opinion which I entertained for-
merly on this subject—that I had trusted too much to
the forbearance and respect for the sovereign power
of this country evinced by the Roman Catholics, and there-
fore, seeing that my confidence was misplaced, I brought in
this measure as more according with the altered views that I
now entertain. Then the Hon. Member for Athlone says
that when I made these statements, and renewed these
opinions. I was bidding for office, and I wished to conciliate
the public feelings of Ireland. Now, so far from that being
the case, after I came into office in 1846, on moving the Reli-
gious Opinions Bill, I stated then the views which I am
not prepared to avow now. I stated then that I thought
that the admission of any bulls might be allowed, that I did
not think any bulls that would be introduced would make
any difference in the rights of the Crown; but, Sir,
I must say I think I am entitled to expect
from a Gentleman who sits in this House as a Roman
Catholic, and who takes the Rom ,n Catholic oath, a
little credit for the motives with which I have been actuated
with respect to the privileges of Roman Catholics.--
(Hear, hear.) For it does so happen that, for fourten years
previous to the passing of the Emancipation Act, that
I held a seat in this House, whenever I could
give a vote for the purpose, I gave my vote for the admis-
sion of Roman Catholics to a seat in this House.— (Cheers.)
And, Sir, moreover, at the time I did so I felt that I was
acting at the expense of the confidence of friends—
against the opinion of the Prince then on the
—throne against the opinion I then believed of the great ma-
jority of the people of this country.—(Loud cheers.)
I did so, feeling with the man of immortal
honour—Henry Grattan—at the time when the name
of Henry Grattan was one of great renown—at a time
when Henry Grattan was renowned for his great eloquence
and great public service.—(Cheers and laughter.) I pur-
sued that conduct until 1829, when Sir Robert Peel
introduced the Bill for the admission of Roman
Catholics into this House, and on the second read-
ing of that Bill Sir Robert Peel said with great
candour and great manliness, which did him the highest
honour, that the measure was due to the exertions of Mr.
Fox—to the exertions of Mr. Grattan—to the exer-
tions of Mr. Plunkett—the exertions of those who then
sat opposite to him, by whom he said the measure was
originated, and through whom ho hoped to be
in a position to carry it.—(Loud cheers.) I was
one of those who sat in opposition to him, and voted
constantly in favour of the Roman Catholics ; but at a sub-
sequent period, when Sir Robert Peel introduced an Act for
the endowment of Maynooth College, Hon. Gentlemen will
recollect that there was great popular feeling in this country,
and that there were hardly any of us who then sat in
opposition who did not receive many letters from cur con-
stituent, saying that our seats would be perilled, and we
should never be elected again by our constituents if we
voted in favour of the measure. Sir, with very few excep-
tions, we supported that Bill, and it gave us very great
pleasure to be the means of carrying it. (Hear.)
I will not at this time enter into other subjects, but I think
the conduct of my public life has been such that it is not be-
coming for a Roman Catholic to rise in this House to say
that what I did in 1844 and 1845 was merely done to conci-
liate popular opinion. Sir, I wish as much as possible
that Roman Catholics should have the full enjoyment of re-
ligious, political, and civil liberty. I do not think I should
ever be induced to introduce a measure by which they would
be prevented having their own mode of worship according to
their own belief, or by which they would be prevented
in consequence of that belief from obtaining the privileges
and honours of the State; but when this is done I will not
be frightened by the word of persecution from asserting the
due authority of the Crown and the independence of
the Sovereign.—(Loud cheers.) I do not think we
ought to submit to this, which I must again repeat
is an insult to this country.—(Hear, hear.) I think, at all
events, we should have a Parliamentary declaration which
should free us from the stigma and shame of having sub-
mitted to have our country so parcelled out, as if it
were a conquered and submissive country. —(Cheers. )
I believe we may do so without infringing in the
least degree on the religious liberty of the Roman
Catholics.—(Cheers.) I am sure that if it can be shown in
any way that by this Bill religious liberty will be infringed,
I shall be ready to discuss those objections, and to re-
move any words by which the worship of the Roman
Catholics may be interfered with. It has been
said by my Noble Friend that if the Holy See, as I am de-
sired to call it, had been pleased in proposing ex officio to
make bishops over the Catholics in communion with the
Church of Rome—if it had confined its spiritual authority to
the Roman Catholics, as the Free Church of Scotland has
confined its authority to its members—if sueh had been the
case, I do not think we should have had reason to
complain, but I do complain when, according to the letter
of the document, and when, according to the
known laws of Rome, all baptized persons are required
to submit to the foreign dominion of Rome.—(Hear.) I do
trust that we shall be allowed to introdnce this Bill, and ie
the first stages of it I shall be ready to defend its provisions;
and if I cannot pretend that my course is entirely consistent
with the declarations I made in 1844 and 1845, I have this
strong ground, that new and unexpected circumstances have
arisen; and that in order to meet new aggression new means
of defence are called for.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. MOORE appealed to the justice of the House. He
had never entertained the slightest idea of asserting
that the Pope had the power of abolishing Protestant dio-
ceses; he left such fancies as that to the Noble Lord. What
he had said was that the Pope had the power of alter-
ing and regulating all Roman Catholic dioceses.
Sir. FAGAN rose amid loud cries of Divide," to move
the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. LAWLESS seconded the motion amid continued up-
roar and cries of " Divide, divide ;" but it being now Six
o'clock, the SPEAKER, declared the House to be adjourned.

STATE OF TRADE.
(From the Manchester Guardian.)
MANCHESTER, TUESDAY. —Oar market has suffered
a further depression. Both the home consumers of
yarns and the shippers to India and to the Europeae
continent still hold aloof from the market; and the con
tinned absence of demand occasions a more marked weak-
ness in the rates than was observable last week. Pricesmay
be considered as merely nominal, seeing that there are
not offers sugicient from buyers to test them ; but
they are certainly lower throughout than they were at
the date of our lest report. In goods, also, there is a
general tendency in the same direction. The decline in
40-inch shirtiogs from the late highest quotations is now
practically 713. to 9d. per piece; for, tuough some pro-
ducers may not be prepared to yield so much, others are.
We hear of some sales having bees effected through such
a concession as bere named. The want of confidence
in cotton is that which most presses, in a direct manner,
on our market. This want of confidence is just now in-
creased more by the evidence there is of a like feeling in
the States, than by the augmented receipts at the ports.
But another cause of our dulness is the fact that orders
are rapidly running out; and, as usual. business of any
weight is in abeyance, until the rise which ensued upon,
the last active demand has subsided sufficiently to induce
renewed operations.

ROCHDALE, MONDA7:—TherO has been a very flit
market to-day in flannels, and the merchants have pur-
chawd very sparingly, at low prices. There has been
considerable inactivity in the wool market; the dealers
have been very eager to sell, and prices may be quoted
rather easier.

MACCLESFIELD, TUESDAY.—We have no improve-
ment whatever to notice in the demand for manufactured
goods; makers being more inclined to hold than do
business at present offering rates. Some houses have
commenced working short time in anticipation of the
present general flatness continuing. The throwing
mills are working full time, although the demand for
thrown silks continues inactive. Prices, however, re-
main very firm; and we hear of no disposition to do
business except at full rates. No alteration in raw silks,
quotations remaining the same as for some time past.
HUDDERSFIELD, TUESDAY.—There has been a fair
business transacted to-day in the Cloth Hall amongst the
lighter goods of a low make, for the American market.
Most of the warehouses have been flat during the week.
There is not much doing in the wool market, the menu
facturers only buying for immediate demand, although
there is not any likelihood of a reduction in price, as
the lots that will be put up at the approaching London
sales are not very large.
HALIFAX, SATURDAY.--The trade in our Piece Hall
is pretty much as it has been for the last few weeks.
Damasks are in good request ; and low lastings are not
made in sufficient quantities to meet the demand. In the
state of the yarn and wool markets there is no change,
except that the unwillingness to operate seems to in-
crease; and prices are stationary.
LEEDS, TUESDAY.--We have had a dull market at
the Cloth Halls to-day, and there is little change to
notice in the woollen trade since our last report. In the
warehouses a little more has been done, but business is
not brink.

A. STRANGE BIRTH.
A somewhat delicate, though abundantly ludicrous,
case, was brought under the notice of the magistrate at
the Anderston Police-court, a feways ago. A strapping
young woman, who called herself Murray, and stated
that she belonged to Ayr, was charged with having at-
tempted to steal from the premises of Mr. Witherspoon,
spirit-dealer, Main-street, Anderston. The defendant,
accompanied by a female named Crooks, and who,
by the way, chances to be known as a pilferer wherever
she can find the opportunity, went into the premises of
the aforesaid Witherspoon, and being shown into an
apartment, called for some liquor. They were not
long seated when Murray took suddenly unwell, and
maintained all the symptoms of having been seised
in labour. Her case appeared so be urgent, and
the poor woman could not be removed. In an agony
of apprehension, at the dread of an unlooked-for addition
to his household, the landlord ran out of the house for
medical assistance; but, as the fates would have it,
though he called on no fewer than five doctors, they
were all out of the way. In this extremity he summoned
to his aid the services of an ancient female belonging
to the almost extinct class of " howdies," and, as fast
as circumstances would permit, hurried her to the
shop, where the poor sufferer had by this time been
accommodated with one of the private apartments o
the family, and everything done for her comfort. The
bustle and confusion consequent upon the above }waving
reached the ears of one of the constables, he went
into the shop, where, seeing the woman Crooks
bustling about from place to place with extraor-
dinary alacrity, he took occasion to warn the
landlord of her character. A few minutes after
.049. Crooks scddonly disappeared, and, following, close
npofi Ober-Absence, the sick woman gave intimation
that she was likely soon to recover from her indisposi-
tion. The quickness of her recovery excited some un-
pleasant surmises that the whole affair had been a " do,"
and with this impression the young woman was re-

quested to submit to an examination, which, however,
she resolutely resisted. Female aid was, however, ob-
tained, and to the infinite astonishment and amuse-
ment of all, the expected " piccaninny " proved
to be nothing more alarming than a bun-
dle of children's clothes, the bulk of which
had at first deceived the experienced eyes of those
by whom she was surrounded. Her, recovery was so
rapid that she was able to walk to the Anderston Police.
office in charge of a constable. The object of this
curious and novel dodge was, no doubt, to afford
an opportunity to her companion Crooks to appro-
priate anything she could lay her hands on during
the bustle. In this, however, no progress appeared
to have been made, as nothing whatever was
missed. The young woman was detained in the office
till Monday, to ascertain from Ayr what sort of a cha-
racter she bore in that quarter, as nothing was known
against her iu Glasgow. The report being favourable,
the magistra'e, Bailie Watson, in consideration of the
time she bad been incarcerated, slismisked her with an
admonition, and a caution never again to attempt any
such tricks on the public.—North British Mail.