The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-15 00:00:00

pledge himself whether he should extend the measure or "
not; but be would say that the Government would take
the point into their consideration.—(Hear, hear.) It
was true, as stated by the Hon. and Learned Member,
that the course pursu d by the Government in this in-
stance might be an encouragement to lay impropriators to
follow the same course which had been followed by the
clergy. But whatever was done—whether they continued
the present system, or attempted a remedy, they ran some
hazard ; end he (Lord Althorp) was satisfied that there
was less hazard in the plan now proposed, than in continu-
ing in their present state. It was on that ground his M t
jesty's Ministers had brought forward the resolution under
consideration, and he was glad to find that it appeared to
give satisfaction.—(Hear.) Their object was to restore the
country to quiet and peace, and be felt confident that the
clergy would meet them half way in that eudeavour
by not persevering in their attempts to recover the
tithes at present due—(Hear, hear)—especially as they
would not be in a worse situation by desisting. He hoped
and trusted that the measure would have the effect anti-
cipated from it.—(Hear.)
Colonel PERCEVAL would undertake to say, in be-
half of the clergy of Ireland, that as soon as the propo-
sition of Government was distinctly known, there would
be an immediate and total cessation of the course which
had been adopted. As it was, the greatest possible dis-
tress prevaiied among the clergy in Ireland.
Lord EBRINGTON hoped that the clajms of the lay

impropriators would be considered, as otherwise he n•as
well convinced that the measure would be inadequate and

incomp'ete.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY protested against burdening
peaceable and honest people who bad paid their propor-
tion, with the charges arising out of desperate resistance
and lawless riot.

Lotd ALTHORP explained, that those who had paid
their tithe would not be so burdened.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY continued. He protested
against such unmeaning, ineffective measures as these :
what Government hail to do was to extinguish tithe
both in England and Ireland, and substitute a land tax
fur the deficiency. This was the only way to give stabi-
lity to the Government and duration to the church. They
might be assured, that if they confined their ec-lesiastical
reform to such a measure as this, they would not only he
defeated in another place, but their defeat would be once-
greeted by the people: Their fall would be as unregretted
as it was deserved. As to the anticipated opposition
of another Hou,e, there would he as much oppo-
sition from these supporters of things as they were
to the displacing of a church stone, or the taking
the surplice from a single wearer, as to anything else.
He (Mr. D. W. Harvey) would suiyest to Ministers a

way of making up the sum they wanted now ; there was
Queen Anne's bout►ty—(A laugh)—a million and a half
cash in hand. Borrow this, for the holders of it seemed
very lax about it, having very readily advanced 40,0001.
of it for repairing Lambeth Palace, and letting their trea-
surer run off with 20,0001. more. Let this amount then

be transferred to Government to supply the proposed
fund ; they would hardly make it up elsewhere. The
only good he saw derivable from the present resolution
was, that they would serve as a proclamation to the whole
population not to pay a farthing more tithe, for it demon-
strated th it they had only to imitate the agitation in Ire-
land, and he immediately fre,d from the impost. What

he wanted Ministers to do wa., to hold out to the people
the joyful anticipation of the total extincttion of tithes.
Let them do this, and they may hold as nought the at pre-

sent dreaded majority in anott er House, —tor they would
have as supporters that same people who had so gloriously

carried them through every thing at the time of the
Reform Bill. Now was the time, or never; let Ministers
take their stand upon the great principle of real ecclesias-
tical reform, and they would save themselves in saving the
Church. He should, however, support the resolutions.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said the measure, as now pro-
posed, would give no satisfaction. The only way to make
it effective would be to adopt the amendments so ably
thrown out by the Hon. and Leirned Member for Dublin.
A land tax was the only way of effew ing extinction of tithe.
Lord ALTHORP said that the object of his resolutions
was precisely a land-tax ; for the purpose of relieving the
tenantry from the pressure of the arrears of tithe for the
list three years, as well as for preceding periods. The

proposed mode of effecting it was, that each parish should
Ise applotted for the amount of tithe due, and that the
parish should then have the power of applotting upon

each individual in possession to the amount of his debt.
And as it would of count., be a great hardship that those
who had paid their tithe should be subject to this tax, it
was proposed to relieve them from it, and the receipts for
the payment of their tithe woull be a quittance in full.
The object proposed to be attained by Government would
be this; by the law, as it at present stood, after Nov.
next, the occupying tenant at will would be freed from
the obligation to pay tithe, and the impost would fall
upon the landlord. The Government intended to pro-
pose that in every case where the landlord bad not com-
pounded, he may, within a certain time, come in and
compound at a reduction of fifteen per cent. This would

effect a great removal of pressure from the poorer classes
in Ireland, from a body almost exclusively Catholics;
while the landlords were almost as exclusively Pro-

testants; and, therefore, the proposed relief would exactly
apply to that part of the population mast entitled to it.
He hoped this explanation would suffice for the Hon.
Member who spoke last, and be would now refer to what
had fallen from the Hon. Member for Colchester (Mr.
D. W. Harvey), whose support he was certainly most glad
_ . .

to have; but he must confess that had the Hon. Gentle-
man not expressly promised his support, be should, from
the apparent tendency of his observations, have anticipated
a decided opposition. The Hon. Gentleman animadverted
upon Government for an allegtd readiness to lavish money
on every occasion. The proposition of the Hon. Gentle•
man went much further than this in its apparent ten-
dency—for he could not suppose he meant seriously to
make such a proposal—for the apparent tendency of it
was spoliation, for be advised them to take Queen Anne's
bounty.—(A laugh.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY—As a loan.
Lord ALTHORP said, very well, it might be so osten-
sibly; but the Hon. Gentleman prefaced his proposition
by saying that the money would never be repaid, and he
(Lord A.) could not but think that borrowing without an
intention of repayment amounted almost to spoliation.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said the Directors of this
Bounty would take care of themselves.
Lord ALTHORP thought Government would take
equal care in providing good security, and be considered
that the land in Ireland would be quite sufficient. The
Hon. Gentleman said that the present proposal would only
induce the people of England to refuse to pay tithes ; but
he had such confidence in the good sense of the people
of England, that he did not expect that it would lead to
any such refusal. He was satisfied, whatever the Hon.
Gentleman might say, that the people of England, the great
mass of the community, were attache:l to the church of
England. The Hon. Gentleman was like other persons,
be kept company with a particular class of persons, and
he fancied that their opinions were the opinions of the
whole community. If the Hon. Gentleman expected that
the church could be destroyed, he was mistaken, and be

was sure if the Ministers were to bring forward any plan
to injure the church of England, that such a proposal
would destroy the Ministry.—(Hear, hear.) He felt
confident that in making this statement he was speaking
the sentiments of the people of England. The Hon.
Gentleman, and those who thought like the Hon. Gentle-
man, were, he believed, utterly miataken. The measure,
• .

• _
if it were adopted, would do good to Ireland, and he hoped
the House would express the same opinion as the Hon.
Gentleman meant to express by his vote, and not follow
what the Hon. Gentleman had said in his speech.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS thought that the House might
have been spared much acrimonious animadversion on the
character of the clergy of Ireland, had the Irish Members
formerly made the admissions which had this night been
made by some of their most violent opponents. It was
admitted that they had not exacted their dues with as much
rigour as the landlords. He would not, however, make
any comparisons—he only rose to say that it was not fair
to the clergy to speak of the tithes as connected with
spiritual duties. He denied that they were. From the
instant the tithes were separated from the church, nine
centuries ago, by law, they ceased to be given for any spi-
ritual duties whatever. He would state, for the informs--
tion of the Hon. Member for Colchester, that Queen
Anne's Bounty could not supply a bounty sufficient for
the purpose of the resolu►ion. With respect to payments,
he was sure that all payments were u;timately made by the
land'ord, and came out of the land. He could not, therefore,
admit that anything was or could be paid by the ten tilts,

and concluded by expressing his satisfaction at the measure.
Mr. O'FERRALL did not object to the motion. It
would certainly give Ireland peace for one year. As to the
mode of payment, it should fall on those who wished to
keep up the church. Those who desired the luxury of a
Church establishment should pay for it. The Hon. Mem-
ber supported the resolution.
Mr. FINN said the grievance consisted in having a
church for 750,000 people only,while there was a impala-
tion of nearly eight millions who did not belong to that
church. The consequence was that the religious educa-
tion of the people of Ireland cost from 17s. to 20s. a head,
while that of the people of England cost 101. a head. In
Scotland it was cheaper, costing 2s. a head ! in ranee it
cost 10J., and in America, which was the examp e he
liked beet, it coot...notbini, tub man finding his own