The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-03 00:00:00

estants. r. • • ) What would the gentry of England
have said if Janses-IL-had succeeded- in 'hinting. the Ca-
t belie church in this country ? How would they have born
it ? Why, not at all. (A laugh.) He did hoPe the govern-
ment were now disposed to.do justice to Ireland; and lir,
should have-heen glad to vote_with them against the motion
if they had but declated that a part of this fund should be
given to the catholic -clergy, not as a matter of favour, but
of right. (Hear.) But they had not so come forward, ant
he therefore felt bound by all the principles of his life te
vote, for the motion. They had tried for 3QO years to put
down the Roman Catholic religion by persteution, and the}
had failed ; and there was now nothing for them to do but
to adopt it. (Cheers.) There, was nothing now for the go-
vernment to do but to make the religion of. three-fourths
of the people the established religion, for that was the only
meausef.secarring the tranquillity of the country. •
- Mr.- ELLICE thought that if the house had heard no
other reason why they ought to delay the consideration of
the motion before them, the speech of the hon. member
who last addressed them would supply enough. The pro,..
position of the hon. member was that the funds now to
arise from the reduction in the church should be devoted
to such-purposes as the raising the ascendancy of a Catho-
-4-e Church in Ireland. (" Na," from Mr. Browne.) He
understood the hon. member to say that he would not
vote for government unless they were prepared to say that
the religious wants of three-fourths of the population of
Ireland should be provided for out of the-funds-of the
church. (Hear.) If he was right, he thought that a
reason why, the. house should refuse to pass the motion
before it. But he agreed with the hon. gentleman that
the people of- Ireland had for a long series of years
laboured under great grievances, and 'that they had been
Oppressed by numerous abuses almost beyond endurance;
and that it•was full time that these should be made the
subject of inquiry, with a view to their efficient and entire
redress. Always since he had had a seat in that house he
had taken a strong interest in the question now before it,
having many years ago seconded a motion of the hon.
member for Middlesex upon the subject. He then said
that the grievances of processes for tithes and dues to the
church to which the people did not belong were such
as .no county in England would have endured for one
year. Since he made that statement it was true
that they had been giving gradual relief to Ireland,
but.'. it • was impossible that the present state of the
shuich could be upheld. He had at the same time stated
that the course he proposed was necessary for the main-
tenance and strengthening-of the church itself. He ad-
hered to those opinions, and any measures which he should
support must therefore unite the two objects of upholding
the church and affording redress to the Irish people. He
might have been desirous to concur with his right hon.
friend (Mr. Stanley) in the views he had taken but for the
difficulties which he foresaw in maintaining the church at
all without some conciliation to Ireland, and without which
he felt they must give up all hope of her internal tran-
quillity. Having, therefore, taken his' determination to
stand upon the principles which had been so clearly and
forcibly stated by his noble friend that night, he was com-
pelled, however 'painful to himself, to separate himself
from his former colleagues who took a different view.
But when the hon. baronet the member for Oxford talked
of a difference of opinion still existing between his. noble
friend and some other parties in the government upon that
most important question, namely, whether parliament had
or had not the right of appropriating the property of the
church to whatever purpose it /night- deem desirable, he
thought it necessary to declare that there was no such dif
ference, in order that it might go forth to the country that
the government were completely -united upon that ques-
tion. If this, then, were the case, he did feel. himself
entitled to make a very strong appeal to the honourable
member who brought forward the motion, and ask
him whether he thought it expedient to press it upon
the house? He would put it to the hon. gentle-
man whether, after the speech of the right hon. baronet,
the member for Tamworth, he did not see a danger that
might arise from an appeal to the Protestant feeling of
this country? (Cheers.) Let him assure his hon. friend
that those who had witnessed the course of previous events
in this country, and who knew what the state, and strength,
and depth of that Protestant feeling was (Loud cheering
from the Conservative benches), he would assure his hon.
friend that they who knew this must have some little feel-
ing of apprehension for the result of any division amongst
the friends of liberal principles on subjects of this descrip-
tion. (Cheers.) He threw that out for the hon. gentle-
man's consideratien, for he believed that they had the same
object in view. (Great cheering.) If the cry which he
heard from the opposite side meant that he had for Isis ob-
ject the full and complete reformation of the Irish church
he avowed it. ( Hear, hear.) He had joined the govern-
ment upon those principles (Hear, hear); but if it were
meant to imply that he had, views tending to the destruc-
• tion of the church, then lie denied it. He had equally in
view the support of the church and the pacification of Ire-
land. It was upon these principles that he stood where
he was, and this policy alone he was convinced could give
them the least chance of eradicating that state of things
which had so long and so unhappily existed in that dis-
tracted country.
Mr. D. BROWNE explained that his right hon. friend
had mistaken him in supposing that he meant to propose
that the-whole of the fund arising-to the board should be
given to the Roman Catholic clergy. He never wished
any Such thing ; but he really d d think that half ought to
be given to them. (Laughter and cheers. )
Mr. LEFROY neat addressed the house, but was gene-
rally inaudible from the Confusion. that existed, He re-
gretted the course pursued by the . Government, and that
while professing their 'attachment to principles of conserva-
tion in church questions they were all the time acting upon
spoliative prin.iple, and exposing the church to its applica-
tion in all, time to come. He felt that they were now come
to times when every man must make his "choice whether
the country was to have the constitution and an established
religion, or an infidel republic upon the principles of Tom
Paine. All men must come to that choice,' and he regretted.
to see a government in this country, while professing an
attachment to the former, adopting a course of policy
having a direct tendency to bring about • the esta-
blishment of the latter. The honourable • mem-
ber then proceeded to correct the exaggerated state-
ments of the mover 'as to the revenues of the Irish
church, but was not distinctly audible in the par-
ticulars. The honourable member had stated the
gross revenue of the church at 937,4561. Now he had
examined the items composing the total revenue, and he
undertook to prove that they did not exceed 521,4311.
He would undertake to make that out to the satisfaction of
the house. The first statement of the hon. member he
should notice was that of the bishops' revenues, which he
gave at one hundred and twenty odd thousands. He ad-
mitted that this had been the revenue of the bishoprics;
but the hon. gentleman in stating that had forgotten to
deduct the cancelled bishoprics, 'which amounted to
50,7301. (Hear, hear.) Then in the revenues cF the dean
and chapter he had omitted to give them the credit they so
justly took for the sum of 21,400/. which they devoted to
the repair of cathedrals. The hon. member for St Al-
bans had, perhaps not intentionally, exaggerated the re-
venues of the church of Ireland by nearly one half. The
true amount of those revenues did not exceed 615,0001., of
which sum about 449,000/. was appropriated to the bene-
fices of the clergy, which were 1,456 in number, giving
an average revenue to each of about 3031. per annum. He
stand
would
this statement fearlessly, and was prepared to stand
He l
pledged to its truth. If any honourable member dis-
puted ino a ma
df
the anbyuve and
livings decorousngs did
state further that six
not exceed 300/., and that many of them went as low as
30/. If it were to be contended that the revenues of not a
hundred
mannere
rd i t
to let
and hdoim
seventy-eighto.
'few livings were redundant, and that some parishes were
considerably overpaid, he would assert in reply that there
were as man)! which were underpaid. If it were proposed
to appoint a commission only to inquire into the extent
s u
and revenues of the different parishes he 'would not object
to it; but he regretted to find that his Majesty's Govern-
ment had mixed up with that proposition .R principle de-
struetive -to the church establishment in Ireland. It was
impossible to have a satisfactory result upon a matter of
this kind from a purely lay commission. - When the hon.
member for Middlesex brought forward a similar motion in
the year 1825 Mr. Canning opposed it by declaring that it
would be a " most barefaced infraction of the Act of
Union," and desired the clerk of the house to read the fifth
clause of that act in support of that declaration. One word
in conclusion in reference to the protestant population of
Ireland. The hon. member for St. Albans had stated
them at only 600,000; but he (Mr. Lefroy) would appeal
to documents before the house, documents furnished by
evidence upon oath, to show that that was not half the real
amount of the adherents of 'the Established Church in
Ireland.
• Mr. WARD rose briefly to reply. The house had
heard the question so fully discussed, that he doubted not
they. ad already made up their minds upon the subject.
Ile could not but allude to the observations of the noble
lord opposite, who had declared that he (Mr. Ward) in
his .opening speech had not advanced a single fact in sup-
port of his proposition. Now all he could say was, that
the noble lord could not have read that speech very atten-
tively before he made that remark; for he roust say that all
that had passed since in that house tended most triumph-
antly to support the arguments he had advanced. Many
hon. members, amongst whom was the right hon. the
late Secretary for the Colonies, had spoken upon the
subject that evening, • but 'he would ask whether .they
had disputed any of those arguments ? The only opposi-
tion they had met with . was from the hon. and learned
member who had last addressed the- house, and who,
he must say, had spoken in a very temperate manner.
That hon. and learned member, however, had accused him
(Mr. Ward) 'of having grossly exaggerated' the revenues of
the Irish Church Establishment. Now, he must say, that
the km. and learned member had himself erred very
grossly on the other side. The statements which he (Mr;
Yard) had made he had calculated upon the returns before
the house, adding one-foUrth only in- consideration of 27
parishes from which no returns had been received, With
respect to, the commission which his Majesty,'t government
proposed to typoiot, he regretted that the noble lord ( Al-
thorp) had not coupled that appointment with the recogni-
tion of the principle contained in the motion he (Mr. vv.)
had proposed
• It was with very great regret that be felt
himself called upon to create a schism ill the liberal Tara-