The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL -PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS-(YESTERDAY).

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

TORTURE IN BENGAL.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH begged to call the
attention of her Majesty's Government to a recent case
of torture in Bengal, and expressed a hope that care
would be taken to ascertain the whole particulars of the
case.

The Duke of ARGYLL said he was not aware of the
case mentioned by the noble earl opposite, but he would
take care that the whole subject should be thoroughly
investigated, and every particular connected with the
case should be collected.
On the motion of Lord REDESDALE the Colonial
Bank Bill was read a third time and passed.
TORTURE IN INDIA.
The Earl of ALBEMARLE stated that he intended
to fix the first meeting of the select committee, to inquire
into the subject of torture in India for Mor.day, the sth
of May. He expressed a wish that the inquiry should
be confined to the question, so far as it related to re-
venue cases, but he did not know how far the arrange-
ment would be practicable.
The Bishop of HEREFORD presented petitions
against the abolition of Church rates.
The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition, pray-
ing for such an alteration of the law as would put an
effectual stop to clandestine marriages.
The Earl of DERBY presented a petition against the
abolition of Church rates until an equivalent had been
provided.

TICKET-OF-LEAVE SYSTEM.
The Earl of SALISBURY rose to move for copies of
all documents and petitions relating to the discharge of
certain convicts upon tickets of leave. The noble earl
said the object of his motion was to ascertain under
what circumstances tickets of leave had been granted to
certain individuals, and although Government stated
that nothing could be done to alter the present system
without an act of Parliament, yet the utmost un-
willingness was shown by them in submitting any
alteration of the present law. The noble mar-
quis proceeded to examine the working of the
system in general, which he-strongly condemned. He
thought that an alteration of the present law was ab-
solutely necessary in the present state -of things. He
begged to move for the papers for which he bad given
notice.
The Duke of ARGYLL said he lAd applied to the
Home-office for the particulars of the above cases,
and he thought that when they were laid on the table of
their lordships' house they would be deemed perfectly
satisfactory. The noble duke then explained the several
cases which the noble marquis more particularly men.
tioned. He would lay upon the tablo the report of COL
Jebb upon the subject, which he was -sure would be
read with the utmost interest by their lordship; and
would show that although some isolated.cases in which
the results- were unsatisfactory might be bro'sght for-
ward, nevertheless the system, on the whole, was at-
tended with success.
Eail STANHOPE said he thought the noble duke
had shoWei sufficient reason why these returns should
not be, granted. He thought that the policy of the
ticket-of-leave system could not be satisfactorily argued,
-except in special cases, without taking into considera-
tion the whole question of secondary punishments. He
was not going to move for a committee, as the other
house had appointed one, but he thought their lordships
should have an opportunity of offering any practical
suggestions which might occur to them. He wished the
Government to consider, in the first place, if further
encouragement and support might not be given to those
useful inetitutiens, termed reformatory schools for the
young, the beneficial effects of which were so salutary.
Take the instance of a school of this description esta-
blished at Cheltenhnm. He held in his hand a report,
made of that institution by Mr. Baker, who stated that
in 1852 there were in it 20 boys under the age of 14
once convicted, 24 who had been more than twice; but
now there was not more than one boy who had been
more than once convicted of any crime. Mr. Baker, in
that report, gave the true principle on which"these
schools should be founded, or they would be productive
of harm instead of good, and that was never to give
boys of this description any advantage which would not
be given in society to the sons oF honest men. Now, that
was a most important principle ; for their lordships
would find that if an advantage were given to criminals
in these persons heyond what honest men received in
society it was an encouragement to crime, and from that
moment they did harm insteae of good. On that ground
he put it to her Majesty's Government whether some
other aid should not now be given in aid of those insti-
tutions more than they now received,: The next sugges-
tion he should take leave to urge was the possibility and
expediency of founding a new colony. That was a point
on which he earnestly entreated the attention of her Ma- ,
jesty's Ministers. There was the establishment at More-
ton Bay, about which he hoped the Government would
give diem some information. He had heard that the inks-
. bitante of that colony had petitioned the home Government
for convicts; but because the greater colony of New South
Wale., to which Moreton Bay formerly belonged, ob-
jected, the. Government at home, out of deference to
them, refused to, accede to the request so made. If
Western nnestralia or Moreton Bay be found inadequate
why should they not proceed at once to establish a new
colony ? He acknowledged the difficulties with which
the question was surrounded, but amid those difficulties
'there was one consideration which must cheer and en-
courage them—the consideration that their past eff nts
would be conducive to their future success.
Earl GRANVILLE could assure the noble lord that
nothing was farther from the disposition of the Govern-
ment than to regard the remarks which be had made as
being characterised by any spirit of hostility. With
regard to the suggestion of the noble earl, that the
Government should give some increased assistance to
reformatory schools, he (Lord Granville) might mention
'that that subject bad for a long time occupied the at-
tention of the Ministry, and for some days a Commit-
` ‘tee of Council had been summoned for toenorrow, to
consider a final minute upon that point. The other
suggestion was one, the adoption of which was sur-
rounded with great difficulty. With one or two of the
observations made by the noble earl he (Earl Granville)
could not entirely agree. The noble earl suggested
that Moreton Day should be separated from Australia,
'end that there should be founded a new penal colony.
It Was quite obvious that it must be matter for very
serious consideration whether, in dealing with Australia,
you could cut out a portion of one of the provinces, in
order to apply there .a system which was so much
,dreaded by all the other colonies. At the same time
he thought it, was worthy of consideration whether it.
might not he possible to establish an entirely new colony
for this purpose,. lie did not wish to answer at any
length the observations which had been made by his'
noble friend, but merely to suggest to his consideration,
whether it might not be desirable to appoint a corn-
Mittee of their lordships' house to inquire into the whole
of the subject. .
Lord .LYTFELTON could not approve of the sugges-
'tlon of his noblefriend ( Earl Stanhope} as totho foundation
of a convict colony, which he regarded as a proposition to
return to a system of transportation, which theexperience
of late years bad shown to be 'exceedingly unadvisa.ble.
He suegested that simple punishment offbbanishment by
exile might be adopted, and also expressed an opinion in
favour of imprisonment for an indefinite time, and where
there was no reformation, imprisonment for life. (Hear.)
Earl GREY hoped that the committee suggested- by
his noble friend (Earl Granville) would be moved for by
Pail Stanhope, as he regarded the 3ubject with ,great
interest, and felt satisfied that a deliberate inquiry into
the question would be highly successful. There were
many points on which their information was not perfect,
and there was no better mode of obtaining it than by the
examination of witnesses before a committee of their
lordships' bouee. He cordially concurred with his noble
friend (Earl Stenhope).in his views, es .to the read ad-
v'entages of transportation ; and he believed that the
strictly penal part of the sentence was better carried on
at home, under our immediate eyes, than abroad. Hes
noble friend mentioned that there was a question still
pending as to the reception of convicts at Moreton Bay,
ittoonsequenee of theoppositioa of the colonists in ether
pints of Anetralia. Now he (Lord Grey) could nrt but
express his opinion, that such an opposition on the part
of those colonists ought not to be allowed. The whole
wealth of Australia had been created in the first iuetauce
by the produce of the labour of the convicts sent to Atl4.
tealia ; and was it, he asked, just and expedient, that
those colonists should now turn round on their fellow-
tedonists and say —" You shall not have the advantage
of elnviet labour beeati-.3 it is no longer convenient to
us ?". With regard to the opinion Veit a new penal
celony should be formed, he
as very much of the same
opinion as his noble friend who spoke before bin, be-
cause the whole of the advantages of th
convict
system
from in the colonies would arise fentitire dispersion
a t
of
the
ooninets. He could assure their
lordships t be
weuld be a most costly opera,
founding of a new ony
doe, diand that, as incol other
would nevenbe repaid. eases, tla
e money expended

Lord LYTTELTO:N.—Tae money to which the noble
lord refers has been reEaid by the nem colonies--every
pai.ny of it, ,
Earl GREY could only say that very many of his
friends had informed him that they had never been re.
paid their money. He concluded by urging the inap
awe of considering the act of 1853, so as to avoid breakort-
ing down the. very main spring of the improved 'ey3tern
of,prison discipline.

.:„The krlari of.DBEIJIY said there werigreat difficulties
doubtless surrounding this question, but he rejli;:ed to
see :Oaf both in this and in the other Hoiiie of lia-
meet there seemed to be every disposition on all sides to
approach the-discussion of it without any party cionside-
rations, and in a moat dispassionate, manner. But not
ouly.did they approach the discussion of this great na-
:- tienal question in the spirit he had indicated, but they
were tolerably well agreed as to what plans they should •
'pursue. There were two diffiault;es in their way, the one
arising from the reluctance of our colonies to receive our
convicts, and the other was the danger to society, aris-
ing from the release of men convicted of aggravated
offences—usen, in fact, who were dangerous to them-
selves as .veil as to society from their inability, when
discharged,•of obtaining honest employment, evenif de-
circus to do so. Such were the difficulties with which
they had to deal. fie was quite ready to admit that,
o:actically speaking, they had taken a great step in the
substitution of what they hoped would be a reformatory
/inition of the sentence in this country rather than in the
colonies. Secondly, the operations of that system were
solunch more closely watched in this country than they
oonld be in the colonies, at the distance at which tran-
liartation was formerly carried on. He agreed with the
able earl who had just sat down as to the serious danger
o society which arose from the too early period.at which
erions sentenced to long terms of imprisonment were
Mowed to enter again upon society. There weia advan-
a gee, so long as it could be carried out, in the old aye-