The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, AUGUST 12, 1834,

which had also been going on in the Cabinet, from the dis-
putes which had been going on between the members of the
Government—(Cheers)—and which had ended in the aban-
donment of all their former principles by those who, if they
were ever pledged to any thing as statesmen, were pledged to
the Reports of 1832, to the principles there announced, and to
the series of measures which had been founded upon them.
The Noble Baron then referred to Mr. Littleton's resolution
of the 20th of February, and to the speeches from the Throne
upon the subject. The Noble Baron went through the heads
of the measure proposed at the beginning of the session, and
said that that was a measure which would have satisfied the
friends of the Church, and have produced tranquillity in Ire-
land. He then contrasted the provisions of the present mea-
sure with those of the former, and contended that there was no
single feature of resemblance between them. By the first the
law was to be vindicated, and the whole power of the Crown
was to be put forth to render the law more respected. That
was a good principle. But in the present measure it was no
longer to be found. Against the landlord alone was it to be
applied. With him was to be left the whole difficulty of car-
rying the law into execution. Was this a measure from which
the peace of Ireland was to be expected? He believed that
it did not afford a chance of pacification, but, on the contrary,
laid the foundation of more deadly animosity and feuds than had
ever yet existed. The measure was indeed to vindicate the
law as regarded 3-sths of the tithes, but it gave the other 2-sths
as a premium for its violation. He was willing to do all that
was just and generous towards the clergy of Ireland, but he
did not think that the people of England and Scotland ought
to be called on to pay for a measure of this description. He did
not believe that the landlords would derive that advantage
from the measures which had been stated, but if they were
sure of doing so to the full amount of the forty per cent., he
thought too well of the class who constituted the Irish land-
lords to believe they would willingly accept such a bribe. He
had known many of them, and had spent the most agreeable
portions of his life amongst them. He had admired their
candour, their frankness, and their generosity, in addition to
all those personal qualities which made them the most agree-
able members of society, wherever they were found. Knowing
them as he had done, he could not and he would not think
such men capable of consenting to share the purse which they
saw the robber take from the poor clergyman of the Pro-
testant church, while they saw the priesthood of the Roman
Catholic religion freely supported by its members.—( Cheers.)
He did not believe that those among their Lordships who were
Irish landlords would consent to such a measure, or that
the House was justified in passing it. In rejecting it at once,
there was no difficulty which could not easily be met. But if
they did not reject it on the second reading, how could they
deal with it in a Committee ? It was a money Bill. They
could not alter a clause of it with propriety, and certainly
none with success. If the Government chose to substitute in
its place the Bill of February last, he would be prepared to
accept it. But of this Bill they could make nothing. If they
went into Committee, what could they do? They could not—
even if the objections he had before stated did not exist—they
could not at this period of the year hope to frame an entirely
new system for the commutation of tithes, which should be
free from the objections of the present measure. Even if
they should not be defeated by time, as they should, there
was another place in which that objection would be doubly
fatal. The House of Commons would certainly then say with
justice, as it did the other day of another measure, that
there
was not time for them to bestow due attention upon alterations
so important, and therefore would refuse their concurrence.
Why, then, the only course he saw open was that of rejecting
the motion for the second reading, and leaving his Majesty's
Government to consider what was due to all interests in Ire-
land, and then to introduce at a very early period such a mea-
sure as would meet the justice of the case to Hear. )
He thought that the Government themselves would not be
unwilling to have more time to look again into the details of
this measure, and reconsider its principles in all their bearings.
They should recollect that it was only the thought of three
weeks, that it had been put together piecemeal, and that in
every part it varied from the measure which had been
adopted by his Majesty's Ministers, and which they had had
under their consideration for
ithe best part of three years.—
(Hear, hear.) The delay might perhaps le thought incon-
venient, and it might be said that the time had arrived when
this question should be permanently settled. This measure
would, he admitted, effect an apparent settlement of the
question ; but he denied that such a settlement of it
could be permanent, and therefore it was that he said,
whatever inconvenience delay might occasion, and how-
ever annoying the rejection of the Bill at this par-
ticular moment might be, it would be better to submit
to such an alternative in order to ensure the permanent tran-
quillity of Ireland by taking time to prepare a good practical
and well-considered measure, than to endanger that object
by passing a Bill like that which now lay upon their Lord-
ships' table. Hear.) He felt that their Lordships were
placed in a situation of great difficulty. Much was expected
of them by the country, and he trusted that much would be
done by them. He asked their Lordships last year whether,
in consenting to violate the principles of justice as they did in
the case of the Church Temporalities Bill, they would attain
by their submission any good object? The present measure
was a proof that they had not. They had consented to pass
the Church Temporalities Bill on the representation that it
would be a final measure, but was that the case ? They were
then told that if they gave their sanction to that measure they
would put a stop to all further demands ; but what was it that
they were now told by a Member of his Majesty's Government ?
Why, that the Church Temporalities Bill was never intended
as a final measure ; that it merely laid down principles upon
which larger demands were to be made.—( Hear.) Under these
circumstances he could not hesitate as to the course which he
ought to adopt, at the same time that he felt the full force of
the peculiar situation in which their Lordships were placed.
The change which had taken place in the constitution of the
other branch of the Legislature under the Reform Bill had
rendered their Lordships the only real representatives of the
Protestant Church of Ireland. That change, too, violated
the pledge under which emancipation was granted, for it was
distinctly understood by every one of their Lordships who
voted in favour of the claims of the Roman Catholics that the
representation of Ireland should remain as it then stood.—.
(Hear.) The representation of Ireland had, however, been al-
tered ; the elective franchise had been placed in the hands of
those classes amongst whom dissent prevailed, and the result
was as he had stated, that their Lordships alone were to be
looked upon as the representatives in Parliament of the reli-
gion of the Protestant Church in that country.—(
Hear.)
That House had, therefore, a solemn and an awful duty to per-
form, and it was expected of their Lordships by the Protestant
people of both countries that their church should be preserved
from the danger which now threatened it. Their Lordships
should consider why it was that the people. of England were
opposed to the Catholic religion. They did not fear conver-
sion from their own faith, or that the Catholic Church could
ever be established in this country. Oh, no, they had no such
fears ; but what they felt was, that it was inimical to the Pro-
testant Church of Ireland.--( Hear, hear, hear.) He regret-
ted to say that the measure now under their Lordships' consi-
deration fulfilled the worst forbodings in which he or any of
the friends of the Protestant religion had indulged, and there-
fore it was that he felt himself bound in duty to call upon their
Lordships to reject this Bill by moving that it be read a second
time this day six months.--( Hear.)
The Marquis of L ANSD 0 WNE admitted that the mea-
sure involved consequences the most important. It embraced
two objects, namely, the tranquillity of Ireland, and the secu-
rity and preservation of the Church Establishment of that
country. Feeling this, he had listened with deep attention
te the speech of the Noble Baron who had just sat down in
order to discover if the Noble Baron should be able to ad-
duce any solid reason for shaking the determination to which
he had come, not only with respect to the principles of the
Bill, but the particular shape in which it presented itself
before their Lordships' House. Nothing, however, had
fallen from the Noble Baron which could in the least dis-
turb the conclusion at which he had arrived, and therefore
he was bound to give a vote of assent to the motion for
the second reading of a measure which had his entire con-
currence.—( Hear, hear.) He was glad to find that the
Noble Baron thought not only that it would be perilous
to delay the final settlement of this question, but that the
proceedings of his Majesty's Government deserved his ap-
probation. It would now seem that the Noble Baron re-
garded their conduct as perfectly consistent and proper, for
hiS present ground of opposition was that, forsooth, they had
departed from the consistent, laudable, and fir.'n course which
they had pursued for the last three years.---( Hear, hear,
hear.) There was, however, nothing in either the prin-
ciple or the details of this measure which was in the
smallest degree inconsistent with the plan which his
Majesty's Government had originally laid down for their own
guidance, except that it would effect a more prompt con-
clusion than any which had previously been proposed. But
what was the constant and unvarying prayer of every peti-
tion which had been presented from the people of Ireland to
either his Majesty's Government or Parliament on this sub-
ject ? Was it not that they should adopt such a measure as
would throw the burden of the support of the Church of Ire-
land upon the shoulders of the landlords of that country?—
(Hear, hear.) No measure, he would venture to say, could
be effectual which did not go this length ; and, therefore, he
cautioned them against the consequences of rejecting the
Bill now under their Lordships' consideration. He would
look at all the circumstances, whether before the measure or
after—whether prior to the rebellion, or subsequent to that
period—which had rendered tithes insecure ; and, having
done so, he had no hesitation in saying that the evils of the
system had arisen from levying tithes in detail from the Door,
between whom and the clergy there was no communion.
But what would be the effect of rejecting this Bill ? Why,
it would reduce the Irish Church to a stipendiary condi-
tion, and he would wish the Noble Baron joy at the situa-
ion in which he had placed it. By this measure it would
tave the best security possible for the payment of its reve-
it would have the security of the land itself, and there-
fore it was absurd to say that its position would not be bet-
tered by the change. He admitted that compulsion might
be applied to enforce the payment of tithes, which would
not
be justifiable in any other case, and this he contended was
the principle on which Mr. Goulbourn's Act proceeded.
The provisions of that Act were more flagrantly unjust than
anything he found in the present Bill; and could any one
suppose that the system of general compulsion embodied in
Mr. Stanley's Bill of last year would stop short there ? Mr.
Stanley made land the basis of the settlement, and so did
this Bill, and therefore it was clear that the Government
had not abandoned their original intention.—( Hear, hear.)
The ground rent or land tax could, at any time the Par-
liament so willed it, be converted into money or land, and
this he thought was making something like a progress towards
the plan of which the Noble Baron spoke in such high terms
of commendation. It should be recollected that there was a
strong objection to having a large quantity of land thrown
into mortmain ; but suppose the tithe were converted into
money, and placed in the funds, would that course save the

nues,

titheowner from loss ? Looking at the present state of the
finds it clearly would not, and therefore the only expedient
that remained for bringing the question to a speedy and at
the same time an effectual adjustment, was that which the
Government had taken, namely, converting tithe into a quit
rent or permanent charge upon the land. Indeed in so far
no alteration whatever had been made in the principle laid
down in the original plan, for it had always been the inten-
tion of the Government to establish a system of quit rent or
land tax, to be paid, not by the occupying tenant, but by the
proprietor of the soil. The compulsion necessarily employed
to effect this object, and he disliked that compulsion as much
as any body, would do that in one year which could not other-
wise be accomplished in five. It would cut off all those
causes of irritation which at present existed, and, instead of
bringing the lower classes and the Protestant Clergy into
collision, it would restore the latter to the influence which
they ought and did, in many parts of Ireland, notwith-
standing the difference of religion, possess amongst the
people. This was the great object of the Bill, and he would
ask them whether it was doing nothing to get rid of such an evil.
Lord EL LENBOROUGH—The evil is not got rid of,
but only transferred from the Clergyman to the landlord.
The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE—Did the Noble Baron
mean to say, after the landlord had been released to the ex-
tent of forty per cent., that the state of things would be no
better than at present ? When the poor were no longer irri-
tated by paying their tithes to the clergy the change must
operate beneficially for the tranquillity of the country, and
surely the security of the land was infinitely to be preferred to
any other that could be given, particularly as the charge in
lieu of tithes would take precedence of all other incumbrances
whatsoever upon the land.—( Hear.) But before they rejected
this Bill they should duly consider what the clergy, would lose
and what they would gain by it. It had been said that tithe
was valuable property ; but was that really the case? Every
one of their Lordships who knew anything of Ireland must be
aware that while other property rose six and seven years' pur-
chase in value, tithes had remained stationary, if they had not
depreciated. Landed property sold at twenty-four and twenty-
five years' purchase, while the average value olif tithes was
the sixteen ; and taking even that rate, the interest of the
money which they would bring if invested in the Funds,
would not return as much to the clergy as the amount of the
rent charge to be created under this measure.—( Hear, hear.)
The Noble Baron had said that there would not be left even a
sufficient sum to keep up the fabric of the Church, but when
he made this statement he spoke in ignorance of the real state
of the matter.
Lord EL LENBORO UGH assured the Noble Marquis that
helves quite mistaken.
The Marquis of L ANSD 0 WNE contended that he was
not, and said that without taking the Perpetuity Fund at all
into account, there would be an abundant surplus to apply to-
wards the maintenance of the fabric of the Church. By this
Bill the Clergy would exchange a bad security for a good
one, and even though their incomesnnight ba reduced it cer-
tainly would be insured, which he thought ought to be an ob-
ject of desire with them. They should recollect that the land-
owner wits subject to the compulsory provisions of the measure
as well as they, and he did not think it too much to oblige both
parties to sacrifice some little to promote the tranquillity of the
country. They should bear in mind the liberality which Par-
liament had displayed in deducting from them only 20 per
cent. ; but in this instance the House of Commons had acted
wisely, because it had acted generously. The boon which
this Bill gave them would not be offered them again if it were
now rejected, and, therefore, he hoped their Lordships would
not only fulfil the just expectations of the people, but show their
willingness to act in concert with the other House of Parlia-
ment, which was fully entitled to the gratitude of the Irish
nation for the liberal course it took in this instance. He had
considered the measure not only as a Minister of the Crown
but as an Irish landlord, and, approving of it in whatever point
of view he looked at it, he must vote in support of the second
reading.
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A, who was not very distinctly
heard in the gallery, said that if the Noble Viscount at the
head of his Majesty's Government bad any regard for the peace
of Ireland, if he had any respect for the clergy and landlords
of that country, he would do well implicitly to follow the ad-
vice which the Noble Baron on that side of the House had
given him. That advice was that the Noble Viscount should
adopt that which had once been his own plan, the plan of all
his colleagues in office, and thereby redeem his own character
and his honour as the First Minister of the Crown, which must
otherwise suffer materially. Restoring this Bill to the
shape in which Mr. Stanley left it would be no more than an
act of consistency. Redemption by means of commutation
was the principle of Mr. Stanley's measure, but by this Bill
tithe was made perpetual, there being no clause in it to effect
redemption. He contended that it would not allay a particle
of irritation, and that the Roman Catholics would be
eqUally dissatisfied whether they paid their tithe into the
hands of the landlord or the clergyman. He must say
that such a measure was a gross act of injustice and a
most dangerous violation of the rights of property. He
would ask who had occasioned the alterations that had been
made in the Bill on the table ? Their Lordships and
the country might be assured that for every concession that
was made in the quarter he alluded to they would be called
upon to go further until they destroyed all the institutions of
the country. He would tell the landlords 'gf Ireland that the
same agitation that now existed against the payment of tithes
to the Clergy, would exist amongst the Catholic tenantry
against paying it in the form proposed by the Bill. He con-
tended that before the Government brought forward a Irma-
' sure like the present, they ought to have enforced the pay-
ment of tithes, and have asserted the authority of the law.
He admitted that there were many difficulties as to seizing the
cattle in the possession of the tenantry, but he thought that ar-
rangements might be made. If their Lordships agreed to the
measure, which he trusted they would not, they would sacrifice
the interests of the Clergy to those who trampled on the law;
and at the same time it never would produce peace in that dis-
tracted country. He trusted that their Lordships would act
with firmness on this subject, and he was sure they would
not be intimidated from doing their duty on that question. He
implored them to consider the important and responsible duties
they had to perform in the stations in which God had been
pleased to place them as Legislators over this great country.
The eyes of the whole empire were turned on them, and no
trifling personal considerations should weigh with them, but they
should- preserve that strict line of duty to their Sovereign and
country which their consciences dictated. In conclusion, he
called upon the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) to act consist-
ently, and proceed with that plan which had received the ap-
probation of his Majesty's Government, and which had been
submitted by them to the other House, and not attempt to en-
force the measure in its altered state.
Lord DUNCANNON agreed with the Noble Earl that
it was a juncture in which they were called upon to act
wisely. In considering this question it would be idle to
attempt to disguise from themselves the fact, that the tithes
could not contiuue to be received in Ireland without blood-
shed and disorder. The clergy in Ireland admitted that they
paid 20 per cent. for the collection of the tithes, and yet the
Noble Baron complained that this measure, which made
Church property more secure, was a sacrifice of that pro-
perty. From his own residence in Ireland, he (Lord Dun-
cannon) knew that even in quieter times than the present,
the collection of tithes in Ireland cost more than 20 per
cent. By the former Bill, whieh gave the power of redemp-
tion, that redemption would only take place in five years,
and then the purchase was to be converted into land, to
which conversion he had an insuperable objection. One
of the greatest advantages of the proposed Bill was, that
it was one to which the peasantry of Ireland would readily
agree. There was a difference as regarded tithes between
England and Ireland. In England the persons who paid it
were possessed of some capital, whilst in Ireland it was
paid by the very lowest of the peasantry, and paid, too,
to a clergyman of an opposite creed. Even within the
last two or three days instances of the difficulty of collec-
tion were furnished, and some had been adduced in the
other House. An instance occurred in Cork where two
clergymen, with all the power of the military and police,
failed in collecting it. This would show what was
likely to be the consequence of rejecting the Bill be-
fore them. In one of these cases, though the clergy-
man had the assistance of the military and police for
several days he confessed he was unable to enforce his
claim. The peasantry, aware of the marching of the troops
locked up their cattle; and even when the attempt was made
at night, the dogs gave the alarm, and put them on their
guard. By passing this Bill their Lordships would give great
satisfaction to the people of Ireland, for whose benefit, it would
be the first time either in that or the other House that legisla-
tive enactments were made. On all other occasions of legis-
lation the peasantry were unfavourably dealt with, though not
intentionally so. This was the first act in favour of the Irish
peasantry, and it would be received by that peasantry_with
gratitude. Before their Lordships would resolve upon reject-
ing this measure, they should consider the state in which, by
such rejection, they would place the clergy of Ireland. When
the Noble Earl who had last addressed them called upon the
House to do their duty, it would be well if he considered the
position in which they would place the clergy of Ireland if they
rejected this Bill. It appeared as if the general feeling of the
clergy of Ireland was in favour of some such measure ; at least
it appeared to be favourable in the south of Ireland. That it
was not so in other parts may be owing to the proceedings of a
Right Reverend Prelate, who was hostile to the measure__
( Hear, hear.) Those who opposed the Bill were the real
enemies of the clergy, and, by rejecting it, would place them
in the position of those whose recent failure in the collection
of tithes he had just instanced. They would be foiled in
every effort to collect what they were justly entitled to ;
and after considerable expense, hazard, and labour, they would
not be able to recover a single shilling. He had one observa-
tion to make as to the alteration that had been made in the
Bill. It was said that but for the influence of Mr. O'Connell
tire measure would not have been brought forward in its pre-
sent shape. He begged to ask, were their Lordships pre-
pared to declare that because a measure had the approval of
the Hon. Member for Dublin, they ought for that sole reason,
however good such measure might be, to reject it ?—(Hear,
hear.)
Yet he had heard language used which appeared to
him to import something very similar.
The Duke of CUMBE RL A ND—Did Lord Althorp sup-
port the alteration ?
Lord DUNCANNON admitted that the Noble Lord did
not—( Cheers from the Opposition side)—but he must add
that fie did not regret that the Noble Lord failed in his oppo-
sition on that occasion.---( Laughter and counter cheers.) He
was persuaded that the only chance of tranquillity for Ireland
was in taking away the collection of tithes from the occupying
tenant, and collecting them from the landlord. He would not
go the length of saying that tithe was not to be recovered by
putting in force the existing laws, but, on the other hand, he
was confident that if such a course were persevered in, the
result would be fields of bloodshed, and the most dreadful suf-
fering.—(Hear, hear.) Every
observation which he had
made for the last few years, compelled him to come to that

conclusion. The Noble Bariln seemed to have forgotten
that the only alteration which had been made in the
measure was this—that, whereas, by the Bill as originally intro
duced, the landlords were to take on themselves the collec-
tion of tithes in five years, and in the present Bill they were
to do so immediately. When he said he was glad his Noble
Friend in the other House had been compelled to give way
on the subject, he must also remark that he was not sur-
prised at such a proposition having been made ; if it had been
brought forward by the Hon. Member for Dublin, he be-
lieved it would have been by some other individual. His
Noble Friend doubtless thought it right to support the Bill as
it was originally, introduced to the House of Commons, but
when he found that every Irish Member who was present—
The Duke of CUMBERLAND (we believe) said " No."
Lord DUNC A NNON—If not every Irish landlord, nearly
every Irish landlord, supported the proposition. He admitted
that there, perhaps, was not a full House on that occasion.—
( A laugh.) He would say, then, that when it was found that
nearly every Irish landlord supported the proposal, there was
at once a strong justification of its adoption. For himself, he
felt confident that no other means would have given a chance
of establishing peace or tranquillity. In conclusion, he begged
to say that he concurred with the Noble Lord who had last
spoken, in feeling that their Lordships were now called on to
perform a most important duty, which they should discharge
without fear, and conscientiously ; but he entirely differed from
that Noble Lord in what he considered their Lordships' duty,
on the present occasion, to be.--( Hear, hear.)
Viscount BERESFORD and the Earl of MANSFIELD FORe
several Noble Lords called for the Noble Earl, but he at last
gave way.
Lord BERE SFORD said he had only a few observations
to offer to their Lordships, or he would not have intruded
upon their attention. The Noble Lord who had spoken last
had insinuated that the right Rev. Prelate, who was Primate
of all Ireland, had used his exertions at a meeting held lately,
to influence the Right Rev. Prelates to vote against the pre-
sent Bill. Now, knowing that distinguished individual inti-
mately, and knowing what were his feeling and sentiments on
this occasion, he must say that the Noble Lord had repre-
sented what was most unfounded.—(Hear.) He felt so con-
fident of this, that he begged to call on a Right Rev Pre-
late, whom he saw now in his place, who was present at that
meeting, and who, he believed, was favourable to the Bill be-
fore their Lordships to state whether anything took place at
the meeting calculated to induce him to give a vote contrary
to his opinion or inclination ?—( Hear.) That meeting was
assembled for the purpose of considering what was the best
thing to be done for the Protestant Clergy of Ireland.--
He hoped the Noble Lord would state his authority for insi-
nuating that the object of the assembly was an improper one.
Lord D UNC ANN ON said he was not much practised in
addressing their Lordships, and, perhaps, he had used a
stronger impression than was justifiable. What he intended to
say was that the Right Rev. Prelate had addressed the Clergy
of Ireland on the subject, not that he had endeavoured impro-
perly to influence their votes.—_( hear, hear. )
The Bishop of DERRY said, having been alluded to, he
hoped he would be allowed to say a few words in reply. He
certainly attended the meeting
(to which the Noble Lord had
adverted, and he took particular pains to master the feeling
which prevailed. The Noble Lord had called on him to de-
clare, whether any attempt was made to influence the conduct-
of individuals with regard to the Bill now before their Lord-
ships ; he (the Bishop of Derry) must answer, that not one
word was used at that place calculated to have that effect.—
(Hear, hear.) If any such attempt had been made, he hoped
and trusted he had manliness and independence enough, never-
theless, to assert his own opinions.—( Hear.) With regard
to his change of sentiments, if such change was to be visited
with censure, he hardly knew who would escape ; opinions on
political questions being founded on the nature of the infor-
mation obtained in connection with those questions—if the na-
ture of the information varied, the opinions changed of course.
Hear.) He would repeat, that no influence was exercised
by the Right Reverend Prelate ; and he would' say, further,
that he believed him to be quite incapable of any act that
would not stand the scrutiny of the most searching ordeal.—
(Hear, hear.)
The Bishop of MEATH made a few remarks, which were
not distinctly heard. We understood him to say that the 20
per cent. which the Noble Lord had calculated would do so
much good, must come from England and Scotland, and there
was no security that it would not be withheld.
The Bishop of DERRY rose amidst cries of " Spoke,
spoke !" He desired only to explain. It would appear, from
what had taken place, that he had changed his opinion on the
subject of composition ; this he wished to deny.
The Earl of MANSFIELD said this Bill was a departure
from the principle of justice, which should be observed in
treating with the possessors of any property.—( Hear, hear.)
If they departed from that principle in the present measure,
he feared it would lead to an attack on all property that was
similarly situated, and eventually to an attack on all property,
whatever its nature might be. The converting of the amount
of tithes that belonged to the clergy into a rent charge, would
no doubt have its advantages ; the collection was at present
inconvenient and difficult on account of the number of
the individuals from whom the collection had to be
made, and the smallness of the sums to be collected ;
he admitted that some sacrifice must be expected on this
account. But as to the amount of the deduction, he
thought that was questionable. With reference to this
part of the subject, he wished to understand whether
the deduction was proposed, owing to the difficulty of
collecting, that being the result of the disturbed state of the
country ; because he should say, that there would be an in-
justice in thus making a deduction owing to the difficulty of the
collection. The State was bound to afford protection to the
property of the subject, who contributed to the support of the
State in order that he might secure that protection. If, how-
ever, the protection to which he was entitled was not afforded
him, that could not be made an argument for calling on him to
sacrifice his property. Were it so, the Government would
take advantage of their own wrong.—( Cheers from the op-
position.) He would not say, for he did not think that his
Majesty's Government had encouraged the disturbances which
unhappily had existence in Ireland, but the principle applied
to those who had agitated the country, and brought it into its
present state.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry that this bill
would operate as a premium on agitation.—( Opposition
cheers.) He, therefore, put it to their Lordships as a matter
for deep consideration, whether the proposed deduction from
the amount of tithes was in itself fair and reasonable. On
comparing the former bill with the present, he found that in
the latter this first deduction was the same, but there
was a further deduction of another fifth in favour of
the landlord ; thus instead of a reduction of one-fifth
to four-fifths to the tithe-owner, he was now to
get only 3-sths. The principle of division was 9-10ths to
the landlowner, and 1-10th to the clergy; that being the case
the clergy could not claim any portion of the 9-10ths. Neither
on the other hand, had the landowner any right to the 1-10th,
unless he obtained it by purchase, and gave an equivalent for
it. On what principle, then, he would ask, would they make
a reduction of 1-10th in favour of the landlord? He knew it
was said that this deduction was not clearly a deduction from
the clergy, and that it was offered to the landowner as a
bonus to induce him to take on himself the collection. When
he reflected that a specific sum was to come from the Consoli-
dated Fund, and that it would come therefore from the pockets
of the people of Scotland and England, he feared that this was
an allowance which would not continue.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) If it did, however, he feared it would belie the ex-
pectations of one who had very much interested himself in this
Bill.--( Opposition cheers.) He could not forget it had been
the avowed object of some individuals that tithes should be di-
vided into thirds; one third to be applied to the payment of
the priests of every sect ; the other third to the Catholics ; and
the remaining third to be appropriated to civil purposes. He
must say, he much feared that if this Bill failed in its operation,
the system to which he had just alluded would be thereby
considerably advanced.—(Loud cheers.) He knew it would
put the clergy to great inconveniences to reject this Bill,
but he should nevertheless discharge what he con-
ceived to be his duty in opposing it.—( Hear.) Should a
case of necessity arise, they must come to Parliament for ano-
ther grant; and notwithstanding that such grants were ob-
jectionable, he trusted they would obtain, under the peculiar
circumstances, the consideration and respect from Parliament
to which they were entitled. The situation of the clergy,
however, would be in some measure improved by the Bill
which would come into operation in November next. He
should be happy, could he entertain any hopes of a satisfactory
arrangement, as regarded the present measure. He entertained
no hostile disposition, no feeling of prejudice, against any pro-
position that might be submitted, which should be satisfactory
to the clergy, and fair to all parties. But he would say, that a
satisfactory arrangement of this question had been a great deal
impeded by the conduct, the weakness, and errors, and some-
thing more than errors of the Administration.—( Opposition
cheers.) Though there always was a resistance to tithes, there
was not an effectual combination against them till some time
after the change of Administration which took place in 1830.
—( Hear, hear.) He could not but think that a great deal of
what had since taken place, was owing, amongst other things,
to the non-renewal of the Combination Act, confessed by
themselves to be unnecessary—( Hear, hear)—and to the un-
fortunate use of the word " extinction" of tithe ; which, al-
though it was explained in a manner that was perfectly intelli-
gible in this House, certainly conveyed an erroneous impres-
sion to the people of Ireland ; and some vague allusions in the
Speech from the Throne, confirmed that wrong impression.—
( Hear.) He was well aware of the fact of these opportunities
to excite unjustifiable expectations having been taken ad-
vantage of by those who were deeply interested in propa-
gating such erroneous notions. He might allude also to
a prosecution which was commenced with much eagerness, and
which exhibited as much the spirit of oppression as it bore evi-
dence to a want of moral courage in not attacking the real
offender.—( Hear, hear.) Nor should he omit enutnerating
the act of conferring on the individual to whom he had alluded
a patent of precedence.—( Hear, hear.) This had been de-
fended as an act f
o policy and justice; he considered it a pre-
mium to agitation.—( Cheers.) What could the Protestant
of Ireland think of the support his, Majesty's Government
would give to his rights in tithes and other property, when he
heard it stated that a Magistrate who had presided at a tithe
meeting was retained in the commission of the peace ?
(Cheers. ) A Right Hon. Gentleman had seceded from the
Cabinet, on the ground that the measures in the contempla-
tion of the Government would affect the security of the Church
property. He differed from that Right Hon. Gentleman in
some very essential particulars. He knew that the Right
Hon. Gentleman had taken what he no doubt considered a
glorious part in the promotion of those measures which had
been passed by an artificial decision of their Lordship's House.
Remembering that the Right Hon. Gentleman had supported
that Bill, of which he would now speak with respect, it having
received the sanction of Parliament to become the law of the
land, but of which he must say that he viewed it at the time
as an act of spoliation—( Hear, hear)— remembering this, he
certainly heard of the secession of the Right Hon. Gentleman

with surprise. The Noble Earl then at the h f the vv
vernment might well have exclaimed on that ocea-'.
Hath he so long held out with me unfired
Tardy. however, And
as stowash the con tion the Right 1
to ps e now for breath ?" „on, Gente't,
snift
, vi
man came to, he (the Earl of Mansfield) was glad old 01-
It was a useful lesson—( Hear, hear)—for none c
what Jett
better than the Right Hon. Gentleman must knew, that CO°
the intentions of the Government. When he saw that saw tP
mission of which they had heard so much,--when GOV",
Bill, and recollected the secession of the Right llo'inadd;
man, he must doubt all the professions that bad been. R..
Noble Lords opposite, of attachment to the Church of of
land.—( Cheering.) He did not charge the mere°
Majesty's Government with shaping their measures 050
s. lash view of keeping themselves in
it proper that Noble Lords, sitting on his side of the tbel
should have it attributed to them, as it had been,. w,,,haiol:,
opposition was dictated by feelings of disappointed al"; but'',
—(Cheering.) He denied the justice of the charrds,
they had so unworthy, so base a feeling in their nitn,„„
could -promise them a gratification greater than ofe,re
derive from seeing the degraded state in which "ositicip./
political adversaries ?—( Much cheering from the P1113,(001,',
Did they know how low they stood in public opinie4ering I
bear)—in public opinion, which, he would say-11' eh oiete,o
this respect from the Noble Earl ( Earl Grey)----r 00.1,1
place, nor did n.ee
00
than the " spirit of the age," did regulate, ae"ministet,lle
regulate, public men.—(Loud cheers from the
refounded
benches.) Public opinion was the opinion of the
~
portion of the community, and was generall);., fecal'
in truth. Of such persons, exercising their reason,3bs, there
ties with credit to themselves and advantage to otarprop"
did not exist in any country in the world so great,e Gore
tion as in this. By that opinion the conduct of the open
011
ment should be regulated. And if they won',
their eyes to conviction—if they did but know isha'hcd wn'tr,
of them, not by their enemies, but by those who wlsisithetiv'
well—if they did but know of the existence of thee dater
blast which proceeded from the burning embers of rot°
bation of the effect of their acts, they would surely' en
to repair the errors into which they had fallen. '1;100
sures had been unfortunate : he thought them dise `lhe bei;
He begged them to reconsider this subject, which,rlorib%
lieved, involved other objectionable measures, and, oftbe"
opinion. Their Lordships, so far as he could jilag`.,
from what he saw, would reject the Bill now before cl,O
They would not be deterred from the performance eea the
duty. The absurd apprehension of a collision beta') Tte
two Houses of Parliament had vanished.—( Hear, hearip
would act according to the best of their judgment, and% $ll/lC'
formity with the
.prayers of those numerous petitionepeo;
were lying on their Lordships' table, and in which Tligiao'
tioners declared their attachment to the Church in
and Ireland. He hoped that the expression of these as well
meats would have an effect on his Majesty's Ministers, 510 t
as on their Lordships. He should give a conscientious did
to reject the Bill ; and with but one regret; which ja'ect 1°)
he had been carried away by the interest of the sub Ater:
trespass so long on their Lordships' indulgence.—(L% ties"
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he Nsefic sc,3;
pass upon their Lordship's time for a short space. ,
principally moved to do so by the importance of the Sa
Erado"
but also somewhat by the tone adopted by the Noble
nhjert ;,
had just sat down, who bad scarcely dealt with the s
rots!
that calm, sober, and dispassionate spirit which its inted apt'
the country demanded, and which had been preserved
of the
the Noble Earl's rising by the speeches on both sides
the /3;.,
question: The Noble Baron who first spoke against both/
( Lord Ellenborough), had throughout what—although art 0,
fered from the sentiments it contained—except in that Po.hie!
it in which his Lordship paid a just tribute to the coursieirdstee:
had for the last three years governed his Majesty's ly
in respect of the Irish Church, a tribute which, ,P Soo'
looking to the tactics of debate, it was not politic in the heart
.e foal Baron to pay, but which, as " from the fullness of th
the mouth speaketh," he had not been able to refrain
e
Paying—(Laughter)—that Noble Baron he said had, t hil
out what he acknowledged to be his able and manlYd s'neeceerp
adopted a tone calmly deliberative and suited to the d totbe
portance of this question, in a national point of view,neihJas
near, the very near interest of the highest nature
rely 06
involved in the result of this question. It was not mew e5l;
stability of the Irish Church which was involved, but Itis'
istence, so to speak, and certainly the subsistence of the,..ei h'
Protestant Clergy. Upon such a subject, theregnsneecil
should have thought, till he had heard the last
that had been addressed to their Lordships, it wa_sling
to
sible for any man of sound judgment or right fee
pail
have suffered himself to be carried away by—
mere
_it3 0
passion, and to have chosen—rather than discuss the nn lion it
a difficult question it must be admitted, of a grave W0;004
was allowed on all hands, of a question involving the 4,110'
interests of a large portion of a numerous body of our 'caning
subjects, and of a great public institution, of a questiol•pet to
for calm deliberative attention—by, avoiding the sultl-erporY
have digressed into every other topic a ransacked rea.olo
could supply from mere personal hostility towards his 31 )010,
Ministers and their late colleagues, exceeded any rotlel°
had ever formed of the lengths to which party animosity be
carry individuals, and had disappointed the expectotTact°
had been induced -to entertain from the previous con oial
the Noble Earl, of what his course would on such an
L
ee-
p
have been. Without any want of respect for the Noble ittell
—indeed with the most entire respect, he must be peruj'hinl
to deviate from his example, and abstain from following Uldy
into those party and personal topics, so far as he possibly °hie!, into which he had meandered far from the subject v'ie
really required their attention. He proposed then briefly'
to
do two things first, to call their Lordships' attentitobaco
the merits of the real question, and next, to intrea,
in mercy to the clergy of Ireland, in justice to the CO
not to do what the Noble Earl, with almost plenarYo'
thority, had announced it was their intention to d°,' ~o.lof
throw out this Bill. It was in mercy, he said to a sul'blo
s
and deserving body of their fellow-subjects, that he
.„,tio‘
call their Lordships' attention to the consequences of rek'effect
this Bill, before they did reject it, in order that if the ti,
turned out to be different from what some Rev. Prelates log
ciliated, they might not have to blame themselves for nt 61st,
too rashly come to a decision adverse to the Bill. Bu, reed
with respect to the merits of the question. He entirely c'vrthat
with his Noble Friend at the head of the Government' t not(
there was no difference in the principle of the Bill as red
'Of
appeared before them, and as it was originally proPeanc•cd,
his Majesty's Ministers. The principle of the Bill introo,i,
tt
was to throw the charge of tithe upon the landlord, to
pod,
nate conflicts, which had been so fatal to the
peace of fled the
and so ruinous to the Church, between .the tithe owner and
present occupier of the soil, from whom he levied his POP aacl
This was to have been done under various induceinentgo ,
compulsions, sooner or later, but at the latest in the cc'er
five years, as his recollection served him. Such was th„,ecipsl
originally brought forward by Ministers • and the pill, the
change which it had undergone in its progress throng a" den
other House of Parliament had been to throw the bjapse
upon the landlord immediately, instead of waiting for the not
of the five years. This was a great change ; but it 1,40
a change in the principle of the Bill, and he agreed If if
those who thought it an improvement.—( Hear, hear.) ptiO
were said that he thereby agreed with those whose
was to be doubted—whose authority no man would adre" De
would tell their Lordships that among others with- w"h ? ncl°f
I thoroughly agreed was a Right Hon. Baronet, a great fric
oho
the Church Establishment in England as well as Ire
had been Principal Secretary of State for the Home
Ike nct
ment, and Secretary for Ireland. The Right Hon.
ridiculed the idea of postponing the payment for so ;-„,
years, and said that if the principle of
compulsion was t
at
adopted at all, it should be adopted and carried into efrec
once. The principal change in the measure since its `,.1:j0 ' duction was enforcing on the landlords the compulsory 1.),, -j
ple at once. He entirely agreed also with his Noble
.1" 1.-ot'
pe••
at the head of the Government in his statement on the
rior advantages the Irish Clergy would have under this altl
compared with their situation under the existing law, s"c'tiag
their Lordships unfortunately throw them upon it by reicde td
this measure. What was the upshot of the proposal 111-ie,
the Clergy by this Bill ? They had now by undoubten
bytje
indisputable, imprescriptable right, an unimpeachablde
to a hundred per cent. in the tithes ; but it so hapnene title
there was what lawyers termed a severance of the egy
and the possession, and the same person who in contlit,,
plation of law, had the right to one hundred per c`olo,
a right which no man, lawyer or layman, would dispute,: n of
as often happened, in the receipt of a very moderate porP°,ser
the 100 per cent. He was in legal, but not in actual Pt:ach
sion ; he had all the law with him, but the fact veil - par'
against him. It was an old warning addressed to young to
rasters, when they were more anxious to put a point of 'a fie
the Judge than lay their facts before the Jury,
that one 49,nuade
of fact was worth a pound weight of law. No man was Irish
more acquainted with the truth of this saying than the .1;
tithe-owner. This tithe was fortified in law beyond a cnitat
but was out of possession. This was a state of thingsa
creditable to the law ; but it was a state of things not e't to
alter. It was easy to say that tithes ought to be collecTehe
but their whole army had failed in collecting therom Pa
Government then, in the measure it originally introduce"! ails
in the measure improved, as he contended it had been, Irlnseti"
progress through the other House of Parliament, Pr,eP,- by'
that instead of 1001. collected with extreme difficult)., bloodshed, by litigation, by processes, by endless rni,, ser',sroils
breaking of the peace throughout the country, by civil
—instead, he said, of 1004 so collected perhaps owe 'Go-
but the most insecure of properties the next year, sOt
vernment purposed, wisely and prudently he tbouge"d to
to make a compromise with wrong, but having a regltrhing I
circumstances, to give something for security, sore e;tioo;
for peace, and something for saving the cost of col ic- Of
What the Bill proposed should be given for all this, lresf the
per cent., making the net, certain, and positive receiP,t°ing
tithe-owner 77i per cent. Now, he could not help Wl' tot
with the Noble Lord at the head of the Government' in
many of their Lordships would deem themselves felicitouairs,
having such an offer made with respect to their private aff
ern
ovina
And he would venture to say that many of them, not ill 10v
of tithes, but owners of estates, and entitled to the 'II to cent. of rents agreed to be received would be off those
make a composition, if risk attended the collection °-
rents, if tenants were often backward in paying, and under'
times refused to pay at all, they would be glad, he said, r,ef
half the difficulties of the Irish tithe-owncr, to ay 221 ',"614
cent. for the sake of having their rent paid by• the "i'Voocils,, ete
Forests in paper as good as gold, without risk of bad de'A'`.. the
tenants leaving, of land being thrown upon their hands, 11: ar.•
certainty of agency expenses, poundage, and steward.% to
counts. How many of their Lordships, he should lice
or
know, would refuse to give 100,0001. of rent, not easilyasafely got transferred, converted into 77,5004, paid- as ;cked
larly every half year as the clock struck ? But then it was re-
by the Noble Earl who spoke last, how the landlord was t.self
cover the amount from his tenants with which he had
been charged ? Now, nothing was more certain, than that 11"