The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-24 00:00:00

THE SUN,

nisei in legal doenments, and actually inserted in Acts
of Parliament ?
Sir G. GREY said that the II in. and Learned Gen-
tleman had now changed the issue. He admitted that
the Government in Ireland had given precedence to 'he
Catholic hierarchy, hut they were not the first to take
this ceursc, for the G aiernineet belore :hem had shown
them the example. He would ask what law existed
which prevented them addressing a Roman Catholic
bishop as " your Grace," and a Roman Catholic bishop
as " my Lord?"
Sir F. THESIGER thought it might be convenient to
the Committee if he stated the precise course which he
intended to pursue. He had been requested by the Hon.
Member for Buckinghamshire and the lion. Member for
Evesham to withdraw his amendment, but having well
deliberated on the course he ought to pursue, and not
having heard one real objection to his proposition, he
felt, in justice to himself, he was hound to persevere in
it. If he received any assurance that the Government
would adopt the whole of the preamble proposed by the
Hon. and Learned Member for Midhurst, be would not
have thought it necessary to bring forward his amend-
ment. Suppose he withdrew his amendment, and that
the Government clause was carried without any amend-
ment at all, his object would not only be defeated, but
the Government Bill would remain incomplete and in-
consistent. He felt that his own character required him
to do that which he thought was absolutely necessary
to make the Bill complete, and he therefore could not
consent to withdraw his amendment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man bad declared it to be his intention to press his
amendment, he trusted that the Committee would pro-
ceed to discuss that amendment, and avoid going into
the general question of the Bill, or various other ques-
tion which did not properly come under discussion at
that stage of the measure. He was so far satisfied with
the arguments used by the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man the Solicitor-General immediately after the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman opposite had sat down, that he
was contented to abide by them. It was said that the
original Bill did not point as far as it was desirable it
should go; and considering that there was some force in
that argument they bad altered the preamble to meet
that objection. If, however, they acceded to the amend-
ment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon,
he thought that they would take away the force and
strength it was intended that the Bill should have. It
was a Bill framed for the purpose of declaring a parti-
cular rescript of the Pope to be illegal, and of pro-
hibiting, under a certain penalty, the assumption of
certain titles which were founded upon such rescript.
Mr. ANSTEY declared, as a lawyer, that if the
amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Abing-
don were passed, it would be incompetent for the Roman
Catholic heirarchy in this kingdom to carry on any
ecclesiastical organisation whatever. Although he en-
tertained strong objections to the preamble of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman the Member for Midhurst, he
thought that the Government would have done well if
they had borrowed a portion of that preamble and made
it a preface to their first clause. He was perfectly in-
different to the opinion of any one in that House or out
of that House—(Cries of " Hear.") But so far from
opposing the first clause, he was determined to vote
for it.—(lronical cheers from the Catholic Members.)
He denied that this was a step of retrogression on
the part of the Government, on the contrary, he con-
sidered it as a step in advance in the way of civil
and religious liberty.—(Bear, hear.) By such legisla-
tion as this, the Government defined and recognised the
lawful status of the Roman Catholic Church, and
showed what was legal and illegal in the Roman Catho-
lic question. The Government were acting in a
Catholic spirit by such legislation—they were acting in
the spirit of the enactment of Richard the Second, and
of the 30th of Edward the Third, and not on that of the
Act of Elizabeth. If the Legislature were prevented
from proceeding further in their present course, it would
be in consequence of the conduct of the Roman Catholic
Members, who had shown that they were too much go-
verned by their faith and too little by their impartiality
and their duties as loyal subjects of the Queen. In
speaking thus, he felt that he was representing the opi-
nions of hundreds of thousands of Roman Catholics in
that country, who, he regretted to say, had not the
courage to come forward in their own proper persons to
support those statements which he now made in their
name and as their deputy.—(lronical cheers from the
Catholic Members.) He would refer the Hon. Member
for Tipperary (Mr. Scully), who laughed at what he had
been saying, to the numerous petitions and memorials
that had been addressed to the Court of Rome from Ro-
man Catholics of this country, some of which had found
their way into the public newspapers. He would vote
against this Bill being extended to Ireland, and against
the Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon's amend-
ment; but, as he said before, he would vote in favour of
the first clause.
Mr. WALPOLE thought that any one who considered
the amendments which he proposed in the clause would
see how carefully he had worded them, so as to confine
himself to the specific offence with which they had to
deal. The specific offence was the brief or rescript of
the Pope, which conferred not merely certain titles upon
the Roman Catholic bishops, but partitioned out this
kingdom and interfered with the jurisdiction of the
bishops of the Established Church. That was a grave
offence, and one which he thought should be declared so
in the preamble. He then proceeded in his preamble,
after reciting such offence, to declare that the confer-
ring of such titles was a usurpation and encroachment.
He took, then, the two recitals in his preamble as a key
to what he proposed to enact by his first clause. He had
avoided the introduction of any words which by possi-
bility might interfere with the purely religions or spiritual
functions of the Church. He was, therefore, opposed to
the amendment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the
Member for Abingdon, as be thought it very unadvisable
to go beyond the mention of the specific offence which
had given rise to the Bill. In respect to Ireland being
included in the Bill there could be no mistake about the
matter, for either this was an Imperial or political ques-
tion or it was nothing. He could not consent to exclude
Ireland—at the same time he did not think it necessary
to drag it in unless the Pope did the same there that he
had done in England. He would, therefore, suggest to
the Honourable and Learned Member for Abingdon to
withdraw his amendment, and to allow them to proceed
to the consideration of the first clause as it stood.
Mr. SADLEIR said that though it might be desirable
to hear the opinions of able lawyers upon the question it
was most important to restrain such persons as the Hon.
and Learned Member for Youghal, who, in his amiable
impetuosity, had the temerity to repeat a very stale and
hacknied allegation. It had been often said and pub-
lished in newspapers that this establishment of the hie-
rarchy in England was a needless ;and a wanton act on
the part of the Pope with a desire to disturb that peace
and order which had reigned in this kingdom. He put
it to the Committee whether the assertion of the Hon.
and Learned Member was entitled to more credence than
that of the declaration signed by Lord Shrewsbury and
a vast number of the laity? They declared that the new
peal law aimed at their bishops was an attack upon
themselves. He mentioned the names of several of the
Catholic aristocracy which were affixed to the address.
Mr. HENLEY considered the amendment proposed
by the Hon and Learned Member for Abingdon placed
the Committee in difficulty. He suggested that it should
be postponed until they knew what the decision of the
Committee might be on the amendment of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Midhurst.
Sir F. THESIGER was willing to take his amend-
ment in the way the most convenient for the Committee.
On the understanding that he might bring forward his
amendment afterwards, he was willing to withdraw it
for the present.
Mr. KEOGH said the discussion that had occurred
showed that his proposition of taking the preamble first
was not unreasonable. The Hon. Member for Ennis-
killen and the Honourable Member for the University
Sir GEORGE GREY said that the Government had of Dublin, who had voted against his proposition, had
that night admitted it would have
to the Hon. and have been better to have
been charged with sending police to guard the Ro-
man Catholic bishops assembled in synod at Thurlea, ;Member for taken the preambleAb first. Learned
he ingdon, he
in 1846 reminded
he gave him that when
and by taking the preservation of order at that as-
sembly upon themselves they had, if not directly, at was Attorney-General his sanction
to the repeal of the Act of Elizabeth, which he
least indirectly sanctioned that assembly. He was now sought to enforce. However others might cen-
happy to have that opportunity to say that he was sure the Government for their inconsistency,the Hon.
now in a situation to explain exactly what had been and Learned for
sition.—(Laughter.)
Member Abingdon was not in that po-
done by the authorities in Ireland in reference to the at-
tendance of police at the time.—(Hear, hear.) He bad The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY moved the
communicated with the authorities there, and he wished amendment of which he gave notice—the admission of
now to explain that the police were not sent to guard the certain words which would declare that the Act would
prelates or maintain order in that assembty. He was not interfere with the bishops in the exergse of their
now in a situation to give that report a direct contradic- spiritual functions. They could not have a bishop
tion.—(llear, hear.) The chief of the constabulary in except under a Papal brief; and the present
that locality reported that in consequence of the assem- Bill would render invalid all acts done by him—to
bly of the Roman Catholics to deliberate upon matters ordain priests—and it would moreover render all mar-
connected with their religion, a large concourse of riages out of England illegal. A person could obtain
people was expected. and he applied for a greater force of orders anywhere, but the Roman Catholics could not
the constabulary to keep the peace, and in reply to that have bishops but by the appointment of the Pope. As
application, an additional force of fifty of the police were to vicars apostolic, they were abolished by the brief.
placed under his directions. That was done entirely in He called, then, on the Government to fulfil the asser-
the expectation of the meeting of a large concourse of Lions they had made, that they did not interfere with the
people. There was nothing that could he construed into spiritual functions of the Roman Catholic bishops. He
anything like a sanction on the part of the Government quoted the opinion of the Prime Minister, and of the
of that synod._-(llear, hear.) They certainly did not law officers of the Crown, pledging themselves not to in-
interfere to prevent the step which had then been taken, terfere with the spiritual functions of the Roman Catholic
but they did not agree in that step; and were they now bishops.—(Hear, hear.)
to be told that because they did not anticipate that there The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that the
clause declared that a certain rescript was illegal, and
sane-
tinned the presence of the police in approbation of the
would not ba a breach of the law, that they had
that all appointments under it were illegal and void, and
procession of the Roman Catholic clergy on the occasion the amendment of the Noble Lord would have them to
referred to? declare that, for certain purposes, these appointments
Mr. WHITESIDE, in reference to what the Right were legal and valid. The Bill would not interfere with
lion. Gentleman had said would merely say that he had the spiritual authority of their bishops as it had been
,
been informed, from the best authority, that the police
heretofore exercised.
on the occasion referred to did line the road from the The Earl of ARUNDEL wanted to know in what
Cathedral of Tharles to the College, and between the position they would stand who would declare they would
?lines of the constabular • the Roman Catholic hierarchy not interfere with the spiritual functions of their
walked. The Primate who was clothed in the same i bishops?—(Cheers.)
proceed thus escorted dress he wore Mr MOORE said, es he understood the statement
stated thatatß oitmwe
asd idgecnreorsasllythseupppuobsleidc, roadi.rom andtbe .
circumstances of the
to the Cathedral. His informant of the. Ilon. and Learned Attorney-General, their arch-
furtherbishops and bishops taking the titles they always had
magistrates being present, the Poe could not exercise any spiritual authority in conformity
lice being assembledthe tiere under their authority, and the with the law. If that were so, then this Bill was a re-
improbability ofslightesta breach of the peace occur-
ring on an occasion ofversal of their just policy, a breach of a national treaty,
religious procession of Roman
Catholic bishops amongst a R
Government to lend their sane- a revocation of a solemn treaty, an act of atonement for
Roman Catholic people, that greater wrongs than any nation had ever before suffered
it was intended by the
and another notion inflicted. He warned the Govern-
ie to the whole proceeding.—(gear, li.ear, hear.) If the were awaking an agitation of the ultimate
trineht Hon. Gentleman who had addressed thewhich they did not yet dream.—(Hear.)
House were as intimately acquainted with Ireland as heard
Mr. KEOGH hadno argument against the
he was, he would admit that this was not the only *of Noble Lord. He the •
casion of the Sanction of the Government being given
ee- amendment the e tested sincerity
resultreeet tohfey
of the Hon. Member for Midhurst and of the Noble
to the use of these titles by the Roman Catholic Kier-
Lord by this amendment, when they declared they
archy,—(fleart hear.)
would not interfere with the spiritual functions of tho
Mr. ROEBUCK, in reference to what had fallen from Catholic bishops.
the Right Hou. Gentleman, naked whether that was the Lord J. RUSSELL observed that this clause declared
wear the Goverinment met this question? Was it really i what was the law as it now stood, and he did not see
true that the Government had never sanctioned the use how they could, in making that declaration, be called
of these titles by the Roman Catholic hierarchy ? Had upon to say that another thing was legal which the law
the Government the face to say that the Lord-Lieute- did not sanction.
nant of Ireland did not sanction the assumption of these , Sir IL W. BARRON said if the clause declared that
titles—not merely out of courtesy; but he would ask to be law which was law, then why introduce it into an
whether precedence had not habitually been given to Act of Parliament?—(Cheers.) After the declarations
these archhish-ops and bishops of the Roman Catholic made by the Government, he could not see how, ere ho-
Church ?—(Hear.) Had not these titles been mug- , our, justice, or common honesty, they could fuse

Mr. ROEBUCK said that the Hon. ?Member for
Backinghamshiro was under a slight mistake iri sun-
posieg that the preamble had anything to do with the
Bill, because, in point of fact, the judges would construe
the Bill without reference to the preamble. They would
consider tee preamble as nothing, and look only t') the
language of the claus=e.—(Boar.) He conf.ssed ho
thought the Hoe. and Learned Member for Abingdon
hag really taken the only congruous view of the sub-
ject; but he dissented from him in thinking that there
was any necessity for adopting the course which he
recommended, as well as differed from him in his view
of the law. The Hon, and Learned Gentleman had
referred to the statute of Richard 11. Now, what was
that statute? It was in reality a law to protect the
King's power, which was at that time really assailed.
Then the reason why the Act of the Ist of Elizabeth was
passed was because a previous Act had been passed un-
der Philip and rtlary repealing those provisions against
the Sea of Rome, and thereby giving not only spiritual
but ecclesiastical and civil jurisdiction to the Pope in
this country. But was that the case now in this country?
No; they were here completely free from all such
domination; and a declaration by the Pope was merely
a declaration by an individual, and had no more force by
law than a declaration proceeding from the Wesleyan
Methodists. Therefore, the giving any pre-eminence to
the declaration of the Pope in these times was treating it
in a manner wholly impolitic. The power of the Pope
now in this cauntry was merely a moral and mental
power, and was not enforced by any legal authority.
He asserted that the present clause was either useless,
as being superseded by the second, or it went further
than it pretended.—(Hear, hear.) If he recollected
aright, the present Master of the Rolls had on a former
occasion drawn a wide distinction between a person call-
ing himself bishop of a district and a person who
described himself as bishop, exercising functions within
a district. Now, he wanted to know whether, if the pre-
sent Bill passed with its preamble, any bishop appointed
by the Pope of Rome, and calling himself Bishop of
Melipotamus, or Bishop of Siga, or by antesuch title, and
exercising episcopal functions in any part of this king-
dom, would not be acting illegally? Was that the mean-
ing of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government?
If not, the present clause was useless; and he should like
the Attorney-General to explain the use of it, and the
meaning of the Government.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that while Le
was most anxious to offer any explanation it was in his
power to give on any point, he owned to some reluctance
to answer questions put by the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman; because, not having the slightest wish to give
offence, yet, if he questioned the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's law, the lion. and Learned Gentleman was
angry with him, though the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man might be assured ho could not produce the same
effect upon him (the Attorney-General). The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman was quite as wrong in respect to
the present clause as in respect to the question he put at
an early part of the evening. The first and second clause
had reference to the assumption of ecclesiastical titles
with respect to sees carved out within this kingdom; and
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman put a question re-
specting a Bishop of Melipotamus exercising jurisdiction
within a certain diocese in this country. That case
would neither come within the preamble nor the clause,
because it would not be an assumption of territorial title
in this kingdom, He was entirely of opinion, according
to the original view of the Government, that the present
clause did not carry the provisions of the Bill further
than the recital, and the reason the Government adopted
the clause was because, while it took nothing from the
efficiency of the Bill, it, in the judgment of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Midhurst and others, contained a
more solemn and emphatic declaration of the sense of
Parliament, and removed all doubt and ambiguity, if
any could exist, as to what was the law of the land, So
long as Roman Catholics exercised episcopal functions
among their own community, without assuming titles de-
rived from territory within this kingdom, neither the
present Bill nor the 10th of George IV. would at all affect
them.
Mr. ROEBUCK asked whether he was to understand
that the Pope might issue rescripts really and truly di-
viding out England, if he only called his bishops by the
titles of Melipotamus and Sign? He might thereby in
reality make them bishops of dioceses, and give them en-
tire synodical action, and yet the present Bill would not
touch them.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had assumed that Roman Ca-
tholic bishops with such titles as be had alluded to, of
Melipotamus and Sign, &c., were capable of carrying
out synodical action. Bat the Hon. Gentleman should
bear in mind that the Archbishop of Westminster, as he
falsely called himself, expressly justified the recent act
of the Pope, on the ground that an episcopacy with ec-
clesiastical titles derived from sees within this realm was
necessary for synodical action.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL wished to be informed how this recent
act of the Pope had interfered with the temporalities of
the State, and the regality of the Crown. The Roman
Catholics never claimed anything more than that they
should govern themselves in spiritual matters as they
thought best.—(Hear, hear.) How would they like
Cardinal Wiseman to judge for them? Then, if the
Roman Catholics stood upon the same footing with them,
was not the case precisely parallel?
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the Hon. Gentleman's
statement was more fitted for the second reading of the
Bill than applicable to REM amendment on the present
clause. With respect to the Wesleyan body, he had
never heard that the Wesleyan Conference had pretended
to govern any other but the members belonging to their
own community, or had ever presumed to declare that
all Christians were hound to obey them, and that Ro-
man Catholics must submit to them.—(Hear. hear.)
Mr. MONSELL called upon the Attorney-General to
answer the question he had put in reference to the ope-
ration of the present Bill on the law in Ireland.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the same
question had been asked and answered on the second
reading of the Bill. Ho apprehended that the Bill
would have the effect of stopping synodical action in
this way
Mr. MONSELL wished the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman to reconcile the two statements, that this Bill
would have the effect of preventing synodical action in
England, and that it would in no degree alter the law
in Ireland as existing since the Emancipation Act.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Eman-
cipation Act already prevented synodical action, because
it contained a provision specially relating to the assump-
tion of titles of existing sees. He might he told that
Roman Catholic Bishops in Ireland assumed those titles
notwithstanding; but it was upon that evasion of the law
that they grounded the possibility of having synodical
action. All he said was that the present Bill would
carry the law no further than as it existed at present in
Ireland in this respect, for the assumption on the part
of the Roman Catholics of titles of existing sees, and
synodical action as a consequence thereof, were already
illegal.
Mr. M'CULLAGH said that if this Bill did no more
than the Act of 1829, the Synod of Thurles was illegal.
Why then had the Government not done anything to
prohibit so flagrant a breach of the law as was committed
by the holding of the Synod of Thurles.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY urged the withdrawal of this
amendment.
Mr. NAPIER wished, by these discussions; to get at
the very spirit of the Constitution. He did not wish to
take from the Roman Catholics one iota of the rights
they at present possessed, but he would resist to the ut-
most any aggressions upon the rights and liberties of the
Crown and people of this country.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that the Government was
to blame, and Lord John Russell above all, for leading
the people to believe that they might meet in synod in
Ireland without invading the law, and if not with the
sanction, at least with no opposition from the Govern-
ment: