The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-13 00:00:00

ARRIVAL OF M. BELLOT.
M. Benet, of the French msrine, whose volunteer of
fervick s for any Arctic expedition wa3 announced in our
journal a few days since, arrived from Paris on Saturday
morning. He has hastened across to join the Plince
Albert. at Aberdeen.

Mllot, Knight of the Legion of Honour, is a dis-
tinguished offi.;er in the French service, and was
wounded at Madagascar in 1845, iu the combined attack
of the French and English at Tamatave. The generous„
offer of his services on an arduous voyage to the Arctic
seas, in a cause so sacred, will be duly appreciated by
all classes- ot her Majesty's subjects, and tend, we trust,
to cement that union between the nations of the globe
which is so ardently sought to be established by the
" world's fair."

M. Bellotis, as it were, the representative of the
French navy in the search fur Franklin, fur we have
reason to believe that deep sympathy is felt by all offi-
cers of the navy of France, and indeed of all navies in
the civilised world, in the fate of that brave and good
man and his gall►nt associates.

SHIP NEWS.
NOTICE.

THE ESTATE STEALING MORTGAGE SYSTEM.
Attention is directed to the estate stealing mortgage
system, practised by persona of apparent respectabilil
pre'ending to assist the owners of estates with advances.
In building transactions the cases have been of common
occurrence, ore account of the higkrate of interest, large
margin of value, and opportunities for dispitting every
advance required as the works proceed.
In many other cases, examination of titles and sur-
veys of property, are charged for without the slightest
intention of making advances, and abstracts or other im-
portant documents detained until extortionate charges
are paid.
The most effectual remedy against such frauds will be
a register of cases, and the mamas of parties engaged in
concocting them,and mortgagots should become members
of protection societies to ascertain who may be sately
trusted in such important negotiations. Respectable so-
'Liters and honourable agents will also derive advantage
by being distinguished from the disreputable.
The want of public attention to this description of
fraud has been the cause of depriving thousands of
%it:tows and orphans 01 property ample for their support
if it had been fairly prot,cted.
The abuses under the foreclosing system in the Court
of Chancery, facilitate ihe frauds iu many cases, instead
of prottctieg mortgagors by public sales in the way cal
culisiedto Oaten] the best prices, or granting reasonable
time for redempti,,n, according to circumstances.
The state stealing mortgage system is in principle
similar to bill glowing, but carried on by a more wealthy
class of practitionwrs.

Leghoin, April 30.
Advices from Naples, of the 26 ill state that the qua-
rantines lately established there had all been taken off.
GRAVESEND, MAY 11.--,Wind S.W., calm, fine.
Arrived— Wigerham, from the Mauritius ; &rent°,
from Alexandria ; Liza Keith, from Callao ; Minerva,
from kiarbadoes; Hugo, from Riga; Tar, from Valpa-
raiso; Ann, from Rouen; Alifauce, trom Guernsey; Spirit
and Eke, from Stettin; Sprightly, from St. Michael's;
Anne Dorothe, from Denmark ; Ann, from Bombay ;
Cicero, from Grenada; Ocean Ware, from the Mauri-
tius; Lady Hilda, from Berbice; Blanche, Etlen, Pan-
dora, Grecian, and Elizabeth, from Jamaica ; Alwina,
from Stettin; Germania, from Rostock; Malcolm, from
Dominica ; Violet, f, om Marserilee ; Thomas Hughes,
from Port Philip ; Tay, from Alexandria ; CmJar, from
Tarragona; Chafer, from Ilerdeaux; Pleiades, from Bar-
badoes ; Hellespont, from the Cape of Good Hope; Con-
cordia, Ranger, and Giraffe, from Rotterdam ; Queen
and Lion, from Harlingen; Sadt Dirdrecht, from D,,rdi ;
Tham-s, from Harnburgn; Menai, from Calais; City of
Rotterdam, from Dunkirk.

Sailed—Scindian. for St. Helena; Bangalore, for New
Zealand; Comet, for Bordeaux; Caledonia and Eloe,
fur Hamburgh ; Ocean and Attwood, fur Rot-
terdam ' • Sir E. Banks, for Ostend ; Fleohe, for
Ghent; Victoria, for New York; General Wiltshire, for
Brazil; City of London, for Dunkirk; William Joliffe,
for Havre; Albion, for Boulogne; Fame, fur Calais;
Antwerpen, for Antwerp; Batavier and Earl of Auck-
land, for Rotterdam; Lord John Russell. f Harlingro;
Catherine, for Norway; Ocean Breez', fur Malta; Dal-
housie, for Calcutta; Jane. for Adelaide; Amy Rubsart,
for Newcastle; Mercutio, for Liverpool; fropontis, for
the Cape or Good Hope; Jyiland, for Nykjobing;
Bonetta, for Hain burgh; Crusader, for St. Thomas;
Norah Creina, tor Liverpool; Heurich, fur Wolgast; La
Socic 6, for Caen; Petipie, for Cherbourg; Misehief, far
Barbadoes.

UNIVERSITY INTELLIGENCE:
OXFORD, MAY IU.—MERTON CoLLEGr..—An election
of three Postmasters will take place on Friday, June
20. Candidates are desired to call on the Warden on
.111oAday, June 16, with testimonials of gok,d conduct and
certificates of baptism. In the election to one Nit-
mastership, a preference will be given to attainments in
mathematics.' No candidate will be admitted under 17
or above 19 years of age.
QUEEN'S COLLEGE.—There will be an election of an
Exitioitioner on the Michel Foundation at Queen's Col-
lege, on Thursday, the 19:h of June next. Candidates
must be natives of the province. of Canterbury, who
have attained the full age of 15, and not exceeded the
age of 20 years; and, if menibera of the University,
must not have been matriculated more than 12 calendar
months. At the same time there will be an election of
two Exhibilioners on the foundation of Sir Francis
Bridgeman. Candidates to be natives of Lancashire,
Cheshire, or Wits. Certificates of baptise and the
usual testimonials of good conduct from their school or
collage are to be presented by the candidates to the
Provost on SaturdAy, the 14th of June. The examina-
tion will commence on Monday, the 16th, at 10 r
BRASENOSE COLLEGE. Messrs. Turner, Bethel!,
Keating, and Kenyon, of Lincoln's Inn, have given it Sib
their opinion, in reply to the "case" submitted to them
by the pricipal and scholars of Brasenose College, " that
the Commission of the 31st of August. 1850, is not.
' as respects Brasenose College, constitutional or legal,
and that it is not such as the college' Or its members are
bound to obey; and that the Commission cannot be sup-
ported by any prerogative or other right in the Crown."
• UNIVERSITY BOAT RACER.—The University boat
races will commence on Monday, the 19i h inst., and be
continued on the following dates:----Tuesday, the 201 t;
Thursday, the 22d; Saturday, the 24th; Illonday, the
26th; Tuesday, the 27th; Thursday, the 29th; and
Friday, the 30. h.

VESSELS SPOKEN WITH.
Statira Morse, bound west, with passengers, March 21.
Percival, of Newcastle, March 27, in lat. 49 N., loots.
20 W.
Richard Thornton, from London for Batavia, March 27,
in lat. 2 N., long. 21 W.
Wanderer, from Cardiff for Rio Janeiro, March 16, long.
22 W.
Lady C. Guest, from London for Bermuda, April 10, in
lat. 33 N., long. 42 W.
Nautilus, from Dublin for Quebec, April 23, in lat. 47
N., long. 37 W.
Ellen Forestal, from Limerick for New York, March 27,
in lat. 50 N., long. 22 W.
_ _

Maude, for New Y(;rk. Kay 1, in lat. 51 N., long. 13 W.

ENGLISH SWINDLERS IN PARIS.
AN OLD TRICK REVIVED.
The following story appears in the Gazette des Tri-
bunaua: “Two well.dressed persons, having the uppear-
lance of Englishmen, went yesterday to the fair which is
being held on the Route de Versailles. They placed
before them a tray containing a great number
of pieces like those .of 20f ; and with . a
very strong English accent offered them for sale
at one franc: each. The public suspecting that the
pieces were only a composition gilded, made few pur-
chases. Presently a cab drove up, and two other
Englishmen, also fashionably dressed, alighted. They
went. to within a abort distance of the other two, and
one,said in bad French, ' Why, I declare it is Lord
Harrison trying to- win his wager with Sir
Batburls.' ' What wager?' said the second English-
man,. ' What! don't you know that he has betted
toile sterling that he would offer I,COO guineas at lf.
each to these silly Frenchmen, and that he would not
succeed in selling 50 in two
. hours; whereas Sir Batnurls
pßlarttli,,urslcsii'd
has betted that- they will all be taken in less than
an hour.'
:aid sus
whe second. Englishman. 'For my
of the same opinion as Sir
us bet.'
shook hands,
coeversation was
and, after some
persons hastened to
' Ithow other, :I think with Harrison.' Let
the gold pieces as their
the two gentlemen of
A little farther off, and thet'r
than an hour the whale of
The two gentlemen who
j ,fined the other two in
rapidly and retired a short distance. Their
'lO/.' ' Done."rhey then
st themselves, these
Whisperingr overheard by the persons standing by;
resellers, and bought
. as many of
thescoubrces permitted. Meanwhile
repeated their conversation
the
eullt was the same. In less
n all four drove
had
~Offoo guineas were sold.
rve other individuals
hadl,aed taken
a (
the
thecat,, the sale then
criizetqduiTled,
ISWthheastplace.
having
fn:b inhabitants
OBaritbaetinngarrtiovieod, ,
time explained that they were detective nose, rseorir
English police, and that they had been sent over to
watch certain notorious pickpockets of London who
thainid
have come to exercise their industry in France. The
statement of there etficers spread rapidly amongst the
crowd, andthe
' joy of the purchasers of• the guineas be
came changed into sadness. Oct examination of the
pretended ieces of
gold, it was discovered that they
p
nere not worth 15c. each. The secret pcdice of Paris,
assisted by the English officers, have commenced a
search after the clever cheats,

A USEFUL DOG.—A well-dressed young NVOTIIoo
of the
Orleans Saturday, enteredßa
ilw restaurantaan
and
told
thenot
waiter fa far from
the
terminus
,
tobring her
all haste a basin of soup, as she was about to rake her
de-
parture by the next train. This was immediately d
and after having taken it, and paid the waiter, aw done
was
ne ;
hurrying away, saying that she should certainly be late,
when she perceived her passage barred by a large dog
which refused to let her pass. She attempted by caresses
to put it aside, but the animal held firm, and opposed her
way. " I shall certainly be late!" cried she. "Do take
away that horrible dog!" The waiter and the master cried
out, " Vidocq, Vidocq! give way sir," but the dog never
stirred. One of the waiters here whispered something to
the master, who, coming up to the young woman, said, "If
my dog prevents you leaving the premises, the reason must
be that you have some of the property belonging to the
house about yen. You had better give it up a , once, and go
your way." The person thus addressed at first affected great
indignation at being so addressed, but at last drew out a silver
,pOO/1, which she handed to the o: ner of the restaurant
The dog then allowed her to pass, and she was hurrying off
when she was seized by her mantelet, and forced to stop. This
time it was a police agent, who had been on the look-out for
se, eral persons su petted of being concerned in a robbery, and
who, it was thought, might attempt to get off by the railway.
She was arrested, and on examination her mantelet was
foundto be furnished with immense pocketslor receiving pil-
fered goods. It is said that this is not the first time that the
dog, belonging to the restaurateur, has shown himself a faith-
ful guardian of his master's property. Galignani's Messenger.
L TRH ROTATION OF THE EARTH.—The Rev. Mr
churchgiluir made a partially successful attempt in his own
to on Tuesday, but at a public experiment on Wednes-
day,eontusi,m of the assembled sarans, his machine
indicated that fault, or
. the earth was taming the wrong way. The
i course, lay with the construction
of his apparatus,
or the currents of air • in the room. Further attempts were
more salisfactor
v3;ithAn experiment at Spring-garden has
been conducted
by a fine great care. A 5 lb. ball has been sus-
pendedbrassa wire 28 feet long, and the joint or
pivot at the top is
one, which of coursen
moves with equal facility in all diree-
below, was made to traversse a draw point projecting from it
and it invariable tent circular table of six feet dia-
meter,Much difficulty was experienced in in
the proper direction.
in a mathematically accurate plen getting the ball to swing
but this obstacle having
been overcome, the revolution of the
the world, under the pendulum,
becametable, and of course of
Further experiments are to be made.—
_ quite apparent. I
..4berdeen izerak4

Ittisa SOCIETY OF LONDON:
the Hanover•square
report stated that nine new lual meeting of this society was held at
the chair. The
Ic°°rs; the Marquis of Blandford in
had been formed
Friday the an-
in England in connexion with the society during the
year. The receipts exceeded those of the preceding yearhe
by over •61. The sum 0f4,8551,. had been collected by t
Irish Society, iviatch, with • ' from the
Dass"oc.--iatiOoram
past
h the contributions auxiliaries, amounted to over 9,0131; and, deducting the
expenditure, there
unanimously adopted; a balance of 1,525/. The report was

INTENDED DEPARTURE of the PRINCE' TRIAL OF A LOCOMOTIVE ON THE
ALBERT fur the ARCTIC SEAS. CHESHIRE JUNCTION RAILWAY.
TH. iitne vessel, „hick, •Isilfsdly handled by Captain The trial of the tractive powers of the Druid engine,
Forsyth, performed so af markahle a voyage last year, concerned in the fatal collision in the Sutfou tunnel,
although she felled in her missicn, is again on the eve which was undertaken to satisfy Captsiu Inge., the
of sailing from Aheldeen, in the hope of new com- Government inspector, and the jury who are investigat-
plishing it. Mr. Kennedy, an experienced officer of the ing the case, took place on Saturday mornin at half-
Huasoa's Bay Company, is in command of the expedi- past eigSt o'clock. The engine was in good working
tion; and Vlr. Leask, ice-master of the North Star, who condition, having been worked out at Chester on Thurs-
pileted that vessel through Baffl e's Bay and Barrow's day night fur Captain L firsu's inspection; she rook on
Strait, is in command of the vessel. Embarked with a train of eighteen carriages at Chester, cousisting of
them is Jahn Hepburn. This brave man, woo was with two &et-class, six covered seconds and thirds, and ten
Sir John Franklin, Richardson, and Back, when they open stand-ups—the number sworn to by Mr. Crutchley,
explored the shores of the Polar Sea, and whose noble the station-master at Chester, and others, as being that
conduct under trying circumstances of no ordinary na- dispatched in the train that blocked the road through
tare is imperishably written on the page of history, has the tunuel. The stand-ups were capacious vehicles from
volunteered his services to go in search of
his honoured the
manse North
net Sbetarifeefrdpsbriereehlei,nseisx,tcyapeatblletaaostt,haohlddin
therefore
ea rne fioMr
large portion being those who
master. The crew of the vessel are all picked men—a Le
sailed in her last year. gave reason for believing that oue of the witnesses had been
Lady Franklin, we believe.,down to Aber- misled when be said
has gonethere were twenty-five carriages in
deep, where the vessel is fitting out, and is expected to the train. The weight put in to represent passengers
remain some time in Scotland. consisted of old chairs and ails, distributed over the
say
weight
It is almost superfluous to that the course of the whole, and making, as was expected, with the
Prince Albert will be directed to Prince Regent s Inlet, the engine, tender, and carriages, 152 tons. The engine
and that tae main object of the voyage is to explore the was assisted to Frodsham, and there awaited the ar-
western coat of B eathitt from Cape Bird, south, and the rival of Captain Laffista who was punctual to his ap-
'ee admits eastern coast from Brentford Bay. If the of pointed hour. The ceroner and six of the jury were in
it, the vessel will probably go to Brentford Bay, whence attendance, with Mr. Bragge, who manages the locomo-
tLe two boat parties will be dispatched; and there is tivo department; Mr. Alleson, locomotive superins
every reasonable hope that the party destined for the tendent; Mr. Norris, of the Louden and North-Western
western side will find a water communication between Company, and others. Captain _Geffen made an experi-
Brentford Bay and Cape Bird. At all events, the dis- mental trip through the tunnel, and returned, and then
tance across cannot be more than ten miles, and be the the train was attached. The engine drew her load very
difficulties what they may, we doubt not Mr. Kennedy's slowly, indeed, at starting, apparently scarcely able to
energies and experience in travelling will succeed in move it; but she soon got over that, and attained a con-
overcoming them.
siderable speed, reaching the mouth of the tunnel, about
Had the Government wended to the request of Sir a mile and three-quarters, in ten minutes thirty seconds.
Robert Inglis to send a steam-vessel to bring ua intelli- She maintained her speed pretty evenly through the
genets from Captain Austin's squadron, the Prince Al- tunnel, and it was evident that she only decreased
bert would have gone straight to her work; but we have it when her wheels slipped, which they did some
heard that she will now be directed first to endeavour to little, as was marked by a peculiar beat. The tunnel
communicate with Griffiths's Island, in Barrow's Strait, was perfectly clear, and the end might be distinctly
where it is tfse known intention of Captain Austin's seen, like a section of a large circle, when the train
squadron toikave notices of their proceedings. was seen a quarter of a mile from the mouth at the
Should thi;rhe of such a nature as to render it desir- Frodsham end. It was, however, wet, considerable
able for the Prince Albert to return to England to cone- quantities of water falling in large drops on the
municate the intelligence she gains, she will doubtless be persons of the passengers. With the exception of the
authutised to do so; but should this not be necessary, faltering named, the engine went through well, and
we fear we must make up our minds to remain in igno- reached the other end, a distance of a mile and a quar-
ranco till the etnuaan of 1852, when the ships will pro- ter, in 3 minutes 55 seconds. She then went down the
bably return; for there appears to us to be but little incline towards Moon, two miles off, at which station
hope of learning anything until then, unless, indeed, she finally drew up, 5 minutes 35 seconds after leaving
Captain Austin bad the good luck (scarcely during that the tunnel, travelling the whole five mil, sin 20 minutes,
short season to be expected) to come up with the mis- with that load on, at the rate of fifteen miles per hour.
sing parties lest year, iu which case we may hope to We should add that from the tunnel to Moon there was
have the squadron buck in the. ensuing autumn. a strong wind blowing against the carriages at an angle
It is not to he supposed that the whale ships will yen- of 45 degrees, or at the rate of fifteen miles per hour.
ture far to the westward, and in our opinion the only Everybody seemed satisfied with the performance, and
hope of learning anything will be by the return of the Captain .Leffia said the engine had done her work well;
Ancient Mariner. The brave old man Sir John Ross but in the evening, at the close of the inquest, he stated
m.,y have gone to the westward with Captain Austin's it would be requisite to have a second tend, as, on going
ships, and will, in such case, be able to tell us of their back to Chester to ascertain for himself the actual
whereabouts; but this is by no means to be relied upon. weight in the trains, irrespective of the engine and car-
We heartily wish that the gentry of the land would riages, he found it was 20 tons less than he had expected.
support the undertaking, by coming more liberally tor- lie then gave the basis of his calculation for weight,
ward with their subscriptions. Many have done so, but which he averred Mr. iirsgge gave in his evidence. He
the great burden of the expense is still borne by Lady took 10 stand ups at 65 passengers each—Mr. Bragge
Franklin, which cught not to be allowed. An account is having said from 60 to 70—and that gave a total of 650
opened et Drumm end's, and we earnestly hose that our persons; the third class, it was in evidence, were much
eppeal may net be elcogether in vain. It is a noble and crowded, and he took them at 40 persons each, there
neaourethle service, and ought to be suppsra,el by the were six of teem, which gave 240 persons; then the
noble and honourable of the 'slid. We cannot omit to first class held 18 persons each, 36 for the two; that
mention—though not at liberty to give Lis name— gave a grand total ut 936 persons. He had taken it for
that a csnamanoer in the navy, among other officers who granted that they would be grown-up people, and as 12
have valunteered their services to Lady Franklin, ac- stone each was the weight taken by Mr. Bragge Min-
e: •Inputoed his prep sal tie command the Prince Albert self, he had calculated on that, and the number of tons,
with an k,tr,r of 5001. towards the equipment of the expee 860 persons at that weight would be required to be on
down. e record this tact as one honourable to all con- the train.
cermet, though Lady Fiaeloin's accsptanceof the highly Mr. Monk, the barrister, who appeared for the cold-
vaiu .bie service. of M. Keneedy has, we understacd parry, aid he thought 12 stunt) au immoderate estimate.
pr.. veined her Irene am, peng its obvious advantages. Captain Laffio said there might be 8 stone people in
The Prince Albert ie expected to sail fur the puler the train, and they would go against the people of 16
regi r. son or about the 15h, and she will not this time stone. The train was crowded, and he thought a lower
go out without the organ, which the illustrious Prince average could not be taken The weight of 936 passen-
whose name she bears has kindly ordered to be put on gars, et 12 stone each, would be 70 tuns, but he found
board "to contribute to the amusement of the men" in only 48 in the carriages, a difference ut 22 tons.
the dreary depths of winter. Mr. Brown, solicitor, said that 10 stone, and not 12,
was the weight named as au average.
Mr. Monk said he certainly should have spoken
against such an average as 12 stone at the time if lie hied
heard it named.
Tue Foreman of the jury, Dr. Wilson, conceived that
11 stone was nearer au average.
There was some further conversation, all turning upon
the point of how the weight could be aecertaiued; one
person suggested that the area of each carriage might be
taker', and the number of persons who could stand on it,
and their weight. Another suggestion was that a car-
riage should be filled and weighed, empty and full, and
that seemed to receive the sanction of the parties inte-
rested. Captain Laffan showed how he had ascertained
the vre4;ht of dead metal in the train, still going on Mr.
Bragge's figures, and remarked that Mr. Norris had ar-
rived, by a separate calculation, at within half a ton of
the same weight as himself.
The jury broke up with the understanding that the
engine was to be tested on Monday (this morning), with
the lull calculated weight.
It is but justice to Mr. Bragge to say that his calcu
lation of weight did not accord with Captain Laffau'e.

Ind PERIAL PARLIAMENT.

.HOUSE OF LORD', 12.
The Loth CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool-
sack at File o'clock.
CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Lord CA MI'BELL said, in refsrence to the two Bills
relating to She amendment of the criminal law which
stood for cos remittal that day, he had received a C003111Li.•
nication fret re Lord Denmen, etatir6ee that he approved
of the printes'ple of those Bills, and that he should
wish to sur.gest some amendments in them; now
as the sugges4kions of his Noble and Learned Friend
could not butpre most valuable, and he was happy to,find
that his Noble and Learned Friend still took an interest
in the subject, he would move the postponement of the
Committee on those Bills, in order to afford him an op-
portunity of iseceiving the very valuable suggestions of
his Noble and Learned Friend.—Agreed to.
EXCHEQUER-BILLS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time, and passed.
INDEMNITY BILL.
This Bil 1 was read a third time and passed.
PETITIONS.
The Bisiliop of WINCHESTER presented several pe-
titions against Papal aggression.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several
petitions Request Papal aggression.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from a parish
in Perthshire' to the same purport.
The Earl of ENNISKILLEN presented several peti-
tions from places in Ireland to a similar purport.
The Duke or ARGYLE presented several petitions
from places in S,sotland to a similar purport.
The Earl of 11ARROWBY presented several peti-
tions praying for a repeal of the Sale of Beer Act; also
several petitions in favour of copybold enfranchisement.
FOREIGN FLOUR.
The Earl of GLENGALL presented a petition of
which he had given notice from the grand jury of Tip-
perary in favour of protection to home-made flour.
The Noble Earl said this was a most serious question.
There was as largo an amount of capital invested in
fleur•mills as there eras in cotton-mills, and in Ireland
the flour establishments were as large as the cotton es-
tablishments in England, and now the French had
erected mills and undersold them in the market in the
finer specimens of fl our. The Irish millowners had pur-
chased up all the ,corn in Ireland, and had driven
a most profitable trade in it, and now their profits would
be sensibly diminished by the importation of French
flour, and the carriage of corn and flour would be di-
minished. He had frequently seen in the town with
which he was connected 500 or 600 carts employed in
carrying cure ro these mills, and bringing the
flour away. The consequence of free trade had
been that these mills had bean ruined, and
that the people had been compelled to live upon that
nasty filth called Indian meal, which was positively
poisonous. The people could not work upon it. In ah
the milling districts the workhouses were crowded, and
they had been compelled to take auxiliary workhouses,
and those auxiliary werkhouses had formerly been stores
fur the millers for Irish corn. This was a positive fact-
It reacted on this country, producing a deluge of Irish
paupers, who were sent over by the Irish unions at half•
a-crown a head; and if they continued the free. trade
system they would have ell the Irise paupers sent over
to England. Now for the facts. -In 1849 there had
been imported into England of foreign flour 3,349.899
cwt.; in 1850, 3 890,440 cwt.; whereas in 1847 there
had been imported only 1.339,000 cwt. of fl sus. He
then proceeded to show that a large bonus was realized by
importing foreign grain in the shape of flour, instead of in
its raw material, owing to its being rendered capable of
stowage in a smaller compass by that process. He con-
tended that there was as large an amount of capital ir.vested
in flour mills as there was in cotton mills; that in Ireland
the flour mills were as costly as the cotton mills of England;
and that it was a lamentable circumstance that the French
millers. who lived at no cost on board of Ills vessels with
which they im.orted the finest flour into Ireland, should
undersell the Irish and the British miller in their own mar-
kets. He concluded by expressing his conviction that free
trade would be destructive of all the beat interests of the
country, and that under its fatal dominion industry would
never reap the advantages which were its due, and skill and
energy would be of no use.
Earl GRANVILLE observed that it was always a dis-
agreeable task to make a reply to a statement of distress,
when, in admitting the existence of that distress to a certain
extent you had to deprecate the remedy which was proposed
for its relief. He did not feel himself bound on the present
occasion either to reply to the objections which the Noble
Earl had urged against the s3stem of free trade generally, or
to enter into a discussion on the state of Ireland, into which
the Noble Earl had entered so largely, especcially when the
accounts which he had receised from various quarters dis-
proved, rather than proved, tie accuracy of the Noble Earl's
information. He believed that the distress suffered by the
millowners of Ireland, and ea elaborately detailed by the
Noble Earl, existed to a considerable extent; but he could
not agree with the Nolle Earl that it arose from increased
competition with the French millowners, or with his sug-
gestion that protection to home-made flour would be the best
remedy for it. He also believed that distress was sustained
hy the millowners of Englant, They were undergoing' at
this momenm
t the same fate Lich often befell the anufac-
turers of the country. Amid he improvements which bad recently been made in the conkruction of mills and machi-
nery, it was found that those nellowners who had a limited
capital, and resided at a distance from the best markets,
were gradually displaced by hose who had a larger amount
of capital, and who had the hetefit of the best markets. It
could not be disadvantageous ti the millowners to have the
raw material of their trade cheep; for its cheapness led to
greater consumption on the pee of the people; and, there-
fore, they must derive advantage, as well as the hulk of the
community, from having a larger introduction of grain than
formerly into the markets of tll5 country. With regard to
the competition of the French millowners, he bad recently
seen a French gentleman, well inown to many of their Lord-
ships, who had recently held Yea office in France, M. De-
lessert (we think his Lordshii said), and that gentleman
had informed him that there was no branch of industry in
France in which so much progress had been made in the last
20 years as that with which the millowners were connected,
and that, nevertheless, the milbwners were at that moment
complaining loudly of the instfficient remuneration which
they received in return for theirlabour and their capital. It
was clear, from the statement trade to him by M. Delessert,
that some of the minor millowners of France must have
given way in the competition wlich they bad recently under-
gone with the larger capitalists and yet he did not expect
that any of their Lordships would be prepared to say that it
would have been a wise measure on the part of the French
Government to have bolstered q the weaker portion of this
trade by aid furnished from the resources of the state. An-
other observation which had fallen from the Noble Earl was
that the French farmer was deriving great profit from im-
porting corn to England. No he (Earl Granville) bad
every reason to believe that the tontrary was the fact. The
same complaints which were nude in England of the diss
tressed condition of the English farmer were made in France
respecting the distressed condltios of the French farmer. He
likewise believed that the great distress alleged to be suf-
tered by the British millowners was disproved by the success
of the mill recently erected at Betersea, and by the nume-
rous new mills now in course of construction in different
parts of the country. The Noble'Earl had suggested that
flour should be immediately proileted by a duly, which
would enable the miller to contnue his operations. He
(Lott' Granville) was not disposal to underrate the very
dangerous commercial, political, antisocial consequences which
he believed would result if the Legslature determined to re-
vert to the system of protective impart duties upon grain ; but
he must say he thought such a meauee would be intiuitely
more defensible than to afford prohction to the millers be-
cause a portion of that body were ,evolved in some distress
in consequence of the altered circumstances of their re-
spective localities. The Noble Earl had ssid that this ques-
tion would be brought forward again, and he could only say
that, if a definite proposition were eibmitted to the House,
his Noble Friends behind him would be quite ready to dis-
cuss it.
The Earl of MAL MESBURY said hs had taken some pains
about a fortnight ago to ascertain the real state of the agri-
cultural body in France, reed he had been informed that
during the year 1850 the amount of agricultural produce—
weest, wheaten flour, and barley—exported from France to
this country was equal in value (as we understood) to some
2,001,0001• beyond the ordinary exports. It was clear, then,
that France could not only teed her own people, but had a
surplus of food to spare; and it coulr not, therefore, be
maintained that the agricultural body ir. France were in a
similar condition to the agriculturists of tais country. If the
French exported at a loss, was it conceivablealsat their ex•
ports would have increased in three
years from 2'6,000
quarters to 595,000 quarters? Noble Lords opposite had
publicly lamented the distress of the aeeieultu al interest;
the Noble Earl (Granville) had acknowledged tha, distress
existed among the millers; but yet these Noble Lords had
not made the slightest attempt to relieve that distress.
The Earl of HARDWICK E considered it a striking fact
that there was not one interest which came before either
House of Parliament that was not in a depressed condition.
The distress of the agricultural interest had been acknow-
ledged in the Speech from the Throne; and now the millers,
freetraders themselves, had turned round and were calling
upon Parliament for protection. It was .said that these
petitioners were milers who were in a small way of business,
but very recently a miller of Wakefield, who fed 200,000
people from his mill, had written to Mr. Cobden; as his re-
presentative, begging him to change his views on the sub-
ject of free trade. What, too, was the condition of the ship-
ping interest, and what was the character of the dail a and
weekly rep ,rte of trade from Manchester ? He might remind
their Lordships that Ireland was no longer a flourishing ex-
porting country, as it was previously to 1845, but that it was
now a large importing country.
The Marquis of CLAN RICARDE observed, that if _Noble
Lords opposite thought proper to bring the state of Ireland
under discussion, be thought his Noble Friends would beagle
to show that the various interests of that country were not
in the distressed condition that had been represented._ The. e
whole question of protection and free trade was raised by
be
the
suggestion of the Noble Earl, that an import dutyshould
imposed upon flour, and into that subject he would not enter.
He might say, however, as the Noble Earl had ref erred to
the number of paupers in Ireland, that although it was ure
fortunately too true that the workhouses in the west of
Irel nd were extremely MI, he would ask the.
well a
Noble Earl
what would be the condition of the ratepayers, as of
the paupers in those unions, if,
instead
of
having
food
at
the reasonable price at which it was now obtained,
foodprotec-
tive
high ?—(Hear, hear.) He could speak confidently as to the
opinion or the Poor-law guardians, and he had not met
with a single guardian in Ireland who was not so far an ad-
vocate of free trade as to say, " If we had not at this time
cheap food, it would be utterly impossible for us to support
our paupers." He believed that no persons had suffered so
much from the removal of protective duties as the millers in
the south and west of Ireland, but the question raised by
the Noble Earl (Glengall) was one of great importence; and
unfortunately the case of the Irish millers could not 'be con-
sidered in an isolated point of view, and without reference to
other interests et the country.
After stew words in reply from the Earl of GLENGALL,
The Duke of ARGYLL observed, that there was an im-
mense pressure upon Glasgow, and other large towns in
Scotland, in consequence o the influx of Irish paupers.
The parochial officers were frequently obligeeto give them
half-a-crown a-piece to seno them heck to Ireland —(A laugh)
—and he hoped that no more half-crown paupers Would be
sent over from Ireland.
The E ,r 1 of LUCAN was sure his Noble Friend (the Earl
of Glengall) bad never intended to say that it was the 'prac-
tice to send over paupers from Ireland.—(Laughter.)• He
had, during the last ten years, resided in that country for a
eonsiderable part of every year, and at no former period was
there anything at all equal to the amount of distress at pre-
sent existing there. At no period was the cultivation of
land in Ireland so totally neglected as at this moment, es-
pecially in Mayo and Galway, and he therefore thought it
was, if lie might 11,44) the expression without offence, tolerably

The Earl of CARLISLE said, the Bill was founded upon
a report which had been made by a Commission a tew years
ago. The Commission, composed of gentlemen of different
views, were unanimous in recommending it. It had been
circulated largely among the clergy, who were generally in
favour of it, and the Government also approved of the
Bill as a well-conceived measure for promoting church ex-
tention within the pale of the Church itself. He believed
that very good and cogent reasons could be shown for the
provkion for raising pew-rents but it might be a question
whether some means for obtaining the consent of the parish
beforehand would not be a useful addition to the Bill. That
was a matter, however, which would, no doubt, engage the
utter tion of the Select Committee.
The Bill was ordered to be referred to a Select Com-
mittee, and the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 12.
The SPLAILER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
The Lord,' amendments to the Hartlepool Freemen's
Lindy and Harbour Dues Bill were considered and
agreed to.

SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills w. re then read a second time:—
Brighton Extramural Cemetery ; Kiog's College Hos-
pital (No. 2); and Chris,church (Southwark) Parish
Bills.

PETITIONS.
A great number of petitions were presented against
he Papal aggression.
Mr. ORD presented to petition from Fife against the
Prisons' (Scotland) Bill.
Sir G. S FRICKLAND presented a petition from
Prec on against the continuance of the Regium Donum.
. CoIoneISIBTHORP presented a petition from Lin-
coln, complaining of agrieultural distress.
Colonel SALWEypresented a petition from Welliog-
ton praying for electoral reform. !.
Mr. ROBERT PALMER presented a petition from
Berkshire against the Jew Bill.
Mr. W. PATTEN presented a petition from the
board of guardians at Preston praying for extended
powers to raise loans for the relief of the poor.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Paddington,
againSt the proposed encroachment en Kensington-
gardens.
Sir G. GREY presented a petition from Northumber-
land, praying fur a modification of the taxes on carriages.
NEW WRIT.
Mejor BERESFORD moved for a new writ for the
Isle of Wight in toe place of Mr. Simeon.
RAJA BROOKE.
Mr. B. COCHRANE asked Mr. Hume when he pro-
posed to bring
,forward his motion relative to Raja
Brooke? He supposed now that Sir James Brooke had
come to England, the Hon. Member was afraid to bring
it on.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said, so far from that being the case, he
had been waiting the arrival of the Raja, and it Govern-
ment would only give him the day after to-morrow. the
Hon. Gentlemen should see whether he was afraid to
bring the motion on or not.
MONEY-ORDER OFFICE.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS gave notice of his intention to
put a qiiestion to the Secretary of the Treasury to-mee-
row on the subject of the money-Jrder department of the
General Post-office.
PUSEYISM IN THE CHURCH.
Sir B. HALL asked the Prime Minister what stt pe
the archbishops and bishops of the Established Church
had taken in pursuance ot the letter adaressed by the
Secretary of State to the Archbishop of Canterbury, by-
command of her Majesty, for the purpose of suppressing
certain practices in places of worship belonging to the
Established Church; and whether the Bishop of London
had taken, or was about to take, any legal proceedings
against any of the clergy who sanctioned what his Let d-
st,ip calls 'histrionic performances," in the churches
within his dire se,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was not in .a position re
state what steps had been taken with respect to the
matter alluded ta by the Hon. Baronet, and strongly
deprecated the inconvenience which would arise from
asking such questions in the House.
NEW RIDE IN KENSINGTON-GARDENS.
Mr. HUME intimated that tie would bring the subji.ct
as to the proposed new ride in Kensington-gardens
before the House to-morrow.
EX fENeION OF THE FRANCHISE.
Mr. T. DITNCO3tIBE gave notice of a motion for
next session with respect to the extension of the
franchise.

ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL.
On the motion tor going into Committee. on this Bill,
Mr. MOORE rose to move that the standing order,
which r+ quires that Bills concerning religion should be
first considered in a Committee of the whole House, be
read, and that the order far the Committee on Beck-
siastical Titles Assumption Bill be discharged. The
reason of this motion was, he said, drawn from
the standing order of the House, which
declared that all Bills relating to religion or
any alteration proposed in the laws on this point should
originate in a Committee of the whole House. Mr. May,
is high authority in these matters, heel said that this
order had always been construed as applying to religion,
and not to the temporalities of religious bodies, and it pus
en this ground that the Roman Catholic Relief Bill bad
been considered first in a Committee of the whole House
end afterwards the Church Temporalities Ireland Bil:
had been brought in without that preliminary step. He
was quite willing to admit, if the Bill were to be regarded
only with refereece to its first motive, or if the amend-
ments of the Government were to restore it to a mere
temporal measure, that his objection would at once fat!
to the ground, but his objection was against the Bill a
first introduced, and he thought it was not necessar3
for him to argue before any lawyer or educated
gentleman of that House that ordination and
the administration of sacraments were not
mere temporal incidents, but essentially spiritual.
He quoted a letter from Archbishop Murray, in which
that Rev. Prelate stated that he could not perform his
ecclesiastical functions except in his character of arch-
bishop, and then the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to ob-
serve that the letter containing that opinion produced
such an effect upon the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government, that, with a spirit of liberality which
rw-
called the incidents of the No'cile Lord's early career, he
consented to make a material alteration in the Bill. Now,
assuming the opinion of Dr. Murray, and the admission of
the Government that followed, to be correct, how couli•
any one pretend to say that the Bill related only to tem-
, noralities, and would in no way interfere with relit.
gion ? But it might be said that Dr. Murray was
no lawyer, and therefore his opinion could not
he held to be conclusive. Well, in order to meet that
%bjection, a case had b en submitted to Mr. Willes,
the Inner Temple, one of the Commissioners appointer!
toinquire into the best means of amending the law
on this very subject, and he had given
113 his opinion, which had since been confirmed by Si)
Fitzroy Kelly arid Mr. Btddeley, that this Bill, if it
passed into a law, would place the duty of Dr. Murra),
as an archbishop of his Church, in direei
eoriThet with his duty as a subject of the
Queen. It might, however also be objeeteo
thSt the effect of the Bill was only constructiv,
and not direct; but though he was not lawyer enough
to decide between the two he was sufficiently learner'
to perceive that the effect of the Bill upon the
Catholic Church would be to prevent the exercise
of religious functions, and hence the effect nare,
not be constructive, but direct.—(Hear, hear.)
.T.ht!
standing order to which be referred was made in 11 1 3
on the occasion of a Bil! being introduced into the House
of Commons for the relief of Protestant Dissenters,
When that Bill went up to the House of Lords,
several of the bishops objected to it on the ground
that it was improperly entitled, and it
was consequently negatived. After the rejection of the:
Bill, this standing order i
was passed, in order in r::
tuto
to guard against Bills being etroduee:i into Parliamentclandestinely, with a title altogether different from th,
real nature a dui provisions they contained. And it
ever there was a Bill which Showed the wisdom of
this enactment, or to what it eras intended to apply, it
was the present one. He considered if the Bill had been
brought forward in Committee its whole provisions

would have been well eifeid, and Members been enabled
to make those inquiries and obtain that information which
they eeezned nece=ssary. The Bill not only affected
the temporalities of religion, but the most vital and es-
sential parts of religion it,eif. arid if it passed, it would
be impossible for a Raman Catholic bishop to be or-
dained consistently with the law of the land, and unless
that ceremony took place, ho could not be considered
as one of the spiritual heads of the Church. Her
therefore, celled on the Speaker and the House, in com-
pliance with the standing order, to discharge the Bill.
Sir G. GREY said he would not enter into the ex-
pelienoy of introducing the Bill in Committee, because
that was not the real question before the House, but he
might observe that the advantages mentioned by the
Hon. Gentleman were perfectly imaginary. His Right
Hon. Friend (Lord J. Russell) would not have been
compelled to detail more minutely the provisions of the
Bill in Committee than when he first introduced the
Bill to the House.—(Hear, hear.) The Honour-
able Gentleman had stated that the standing
order was made in 1773 in consequence of a Bill intro-
duced into the House, and ultimately objected to by the
bishops. Now it so happened that the standing
order was made in April, 1772, some months
previous to that Bill being brought forward.
There was also a similar standing order at the same time
relative to Bills affecting trade, and these two were not
new orders, but merely the separation of one order which
was made in 1703, into two. The standing order, there•
fore, had certainly existed long before the Bill mentioned
by the Hon. Gentleman was introduced. Thereat question
was, whether the present Bill fell within the meaning ofthe
standing order. If the Hon. Gentleman had succeeded
in showing that it did, he was willing to admit that no
objection could be taken to the course which the lien.
Gentleman had pursued. But how did he purpose to
show this? First, by quoting a letter written to the
Rieht Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon
before the Bill was introduced, which relied
mainly for its line of argument upon the word " acts" to
be done by any bishop, which word, in fact, was not to
be found in the Bill as it stood at present. 'I ho same
was the case with the Hon. Gentleman's own argu-
ment, which rested mainly on the u e of the word "acts,"
which was omitted from the Bill. The Hon. Gentlemen
said, moreover, that if this Bill passed the Archbishop
of Dublin would be unable to exercise the spiritual
duties which he now exercised. If such were
the case he would remind the Hon. Gentleman and the
House than such had been the case ever since 1829, be-
cause that title had been prohibited by law ever since
that time. Again, he would remind the Hon. Gentle-
man that in 1831 a Bill was passed to legalise marriages
among Roman Catholics. Now marriage was a solemn
sacrament of religion among Roman Catholics, and the
Bill was introduced into the House without the prelimi-
nary form.
Mr. ROEBUCK was of opinion that this was -a
question affecting religion, and as such came under the
meaning of the standing ender. At the present moment
Roman Catholic priests were not prohibited from taking
titles of sees which were not already appropriated by
bishops of the Eetabliebed Church, and a person bear-
ing the title of Bishop of Westminster could receive be-
quests to be applied to the benefit of his own religi ,n.
It; however, it passed be would not be'
able to do so, and for that reason he con-
sidered this was a Bill which interfered with
religion, and the Noble Lord himself had acknowledk-d
that by proposing to extract cert,in clauses from the
Bill, and had thus put himself out of court.
The SPEA.KEit said,' having been appealed to
by two Honourable Members to state what his
opinion upon this matter was, perhaps the House would
allow him to do so as shortly as he could. There
was no authority founded upon any decision of the
Howe for determining what was meant by the phrase
" Bills relating to religion," but having looked closely
into the reports of Bills which had passed the House
which bore upon miattera of religion he thought
it was not necessary to pass a Bill through a
Committee of the whole House, unless the
Bill related to the spiritualities of religion. True,
the Church Temporalities Act went through Com-
mittee, as had been stated by an Hon. Member, but to
show that it was not because it related to religion that it
was carried into Committee, he might mention that
there wits no allusion made to the standing order now
under discussion, arid the Bill passed through just as
though it had been a money Bill. Then came the Bill
for carrying into effect the report of the Eccleshastical
Commissioners. That was not introduced in a Commit-
tee of the whole House, because it was supposed to re-
late to temporal and not spiritual matters, and for pre-
cisely the same reason the Irish Marriage Act did
not go through a preliminary Committee. Under
all those circumAances he was of opinion that the Bill
now before the House was not one which it was neces-
sary to introduce into Committee of the whole House.
—(Hear, hear.) He was consulted upon this sub-
ject in the first instance without, of course,
being made acquainted with the whole of its
provisions, and he gave the same opinion then; and
having since carefully considered the Bill, he saw no
reason whatever to change that opinion.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said it appeared to him that
the opinion of the Speaker went upon the assumption
that this Bill interfered with religion no further than did
those Bills which the Right Hon. Gentleman had re-
ferred to; but that assumption was decidedly erroneous.
He had considerable doubts whether, looking at the pro-
visions of the Bill, it was not a measure alteriei
the laws concerning religion, and imposing pains
and penalties on a portion of the people. Though
he bowed with deference to the opinion of
the Speaker, yet until they had submitted
to him a proper case for his consideration,
he thought they ought not to abide by the opinion which
he had
,just given to the House.—(Hear.) He would
suggest that they should take the same course which was
adopted with the Irish Temporalitii s Bill, and appoint
a Select Committee to examine into precedents, and re-
port whether, according to the orders and rules of the
House, the Bill should have been introduced in a Com-
mi, tee of the whole House.—(Hear.)
Mr. GRATTAN said it was absurd to suppose that
this was a measure which did not affect the religion of
his fellow-countrymen. It was a mockery, an insult,
and an attempt to play upon words for the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government to make such ar
assertion. Had they not fur the last few moi.the
been almost entirely occupied in discussing reli-
gious subjects ? The ferment which the Bill
had already given rise to, end was likely
to increase, would make the Ministers regret to the lest
day of their lives that they had passed such a ineesure.
They had neither the ceuraee, determination, or mind
to get Ireland vat of the difficulties-in which their nisei-
! 'lice and overbearing Iseguage had placed her. If the
Bill were passed, the House woule not only be made the
laughing-st ck of the three kingdoms, but of the world
her. REYNOLDS moved that the debate be now ad.
knirued, in uruer to afford time to inquire into piece-
deuce.

audacious on the part of any Noble Lord on the Ministerial
bmich to seek a sort of triumph in the present state of Ire-
law:. Ihe Soble Marquis (Clanricarde) had slid he never
heard any guardians in that country speak in favour of pro-
t. ction. He (the Earl of Lucan) was a member of four
boards of guardians in Ireland, and three-fourths of the
guardians, if not the whole of them, were Protectionists.
He never heard the guardians congratulate themselves upon
cheap food, but he had often heard them lament that
wretched paupers were driven to the workhouse in conse-
quence of agricultural labourers deserting their wives and
children.
After a few words in explanation from the Mat qnis of
CLANRICARDE, the subject dropped.
CHURCH BLTILDINGS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
On the order of the day being read for going into Com-
mittee on this Bill,
Lord FOR /MAN said he considered some of the provisions
of the measure very objectionable. It would affect the rights
of some 30.1,000 persons who now had free seats in churches,
which heti been erected by private subscriptions or by Church
Building Societies, by giving power to the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners to let one, half of those sittings, in order to es-
tablish a fund for the payment of the ministers. He believed
that some of the clauses would contravene the teatutes of
mortmain. The Bill provided that the right of patronage
should be vested in those parties who subscribed not less than
501. to the building of a church ; but why were persons who
could not contribute such large sums to be deprived of a
voice in the appointment of the ministers? He also objected
to the clause which gave the right of nomination to any new
church built in a t extra-parochial place to the bishop, in-
stead of leaving it with the subscribers. He suggested, as
the Bill was nut a common-place one, but of high importance,
well deserving the attention of the House, that it should be
referred to a Select Committee.
The Bishop of LONDON said, the Bill had been prepared
with the view of providing additional church accommoda-
tion. The popular cry now was that the Church should find
the means within herself of extending her borders, a one
of the most legitimate modes of doing so appeared to be
from pew-rents. The Church Building Commissioners had
found that in many cases where they had set apart a larger
number of free seats for the poor.than they had thought fit
to avail themselves of it would be desirable, and it had
been so represented to them, to let those seats at reduced
rents. He had no objection to the Bill's going before a Select
Committee.
Lord STANLEY did not doubt the goodness of the object
for which the Bill had been proposed, nor was he disposed to
say that in some cases the number of tree seats might not
be curtailed ; but, in cases where persons had given large
sums of money towards the building of a church, with the
view of affording gratuitous accommodation to the poor, he
thought it would be not only inexpedient in point of policy,
but a breach of faith also, by ex post facto legislation to im-
pose a charge upon those seats, at the discretion of the Com-
missioners. He objected, therefore, to that ex post facto
legislation. There was another point, also, which he thought
deserving attention. It might be, under the Bill, in places
where the parochial accommodation was amply sufficient,
if sectarian feeling ran high, that the building of a church
in the same neighbourhood might be authorised with the
view of serving sectarian purposes alone. This was by no
means an imaginary case, and he feared that it might not
be a peculiar one.
The Bishop of OXFORD observed, that it would not be
the Ecclesiastical Commissi, ners, but the Church Building
Commissioners, who would have the power of charging pew,
rer ts.

Mr. HUME was quite ready to consent to the ad-
iournmou t of the debate.
Mr. KEOGH contended that the Bill effected the spi-
titualities of the Roman Catholic Church, and read the
written opinion of Sir F. Kelly, air. Brodie, convey-
ancer, and Mr. Baddele,y, stating that the Bill would ren-
der it illegal fur any archbishop or bishop of the Roman
Catholic Church to exercise their official functions in
this country, thouo they might be merely of a spiriiutt;
nature.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL apprehended, that the first
thing that would strike any individual when considering
the history of the standing orders in question, was that the
sense in which the word "religion" was used in that ord-r
was one concerning matters of faith and doctrine, and Lot
mere matters of ecclesiastical management, superintendence,
or jurisdiction. The question then was, whether this Bill
did in any way affect faith or doctrine, or in any manner
concern spiritualities of any description. The Roman Catho-
lic Archbishop of Dublin, indeed said, that if the Bill passed
he should not be able to ordain a priest or admini ter the
sacrament of confirmation. Was it intended, then, to be
said that from the year 18,9 to the present moment there
had been no ordination and no sacrament of confirmation
performed by any Roman Catholic archbishop or bishop in
Ireland, except by the Bishop of Galway, whose see had
been created since 1829, or by the Archbishop of Tuam,
there being no Pro'estant archbishop of that title? If the
argument of the Hon. and Learned Member for Mayo were
right, such must have been the case, because the provisions
of the present Bill litre precisely similar to those contained
in the Bili of 1829. He apprehended there was not a Member
in the House who would tell him that a Roman Catholic
bishop could not ordain a priest unless he were a bishop of
some particular diocese—or that Dr. Wiseman could not
have exercised his spiritual functions as well when he ryas
Bishop of Melipotamus as he could when Archbishop of
Westminster. The real meaning of Dr. Murray's statement
was this:—" There are certain temporal advantages to the
person ordained by me as Archbishop of Dublin which he
would not po.,,,ess if he were ordained by me under any other
title." But that was clearly out of the precincts of religion.
It dealt with temporalities merely. Reference had been
made to an opinion of Mr. Willes. but how did that opinion
commence? the Learned Counsel said, "I urn instructed
that the Archbishop cannot ordain or do so and so unless it
ba under the title of Archbishop of Dublin; and, if I am
co rectly instructe then the Bill will have such and such
an effect." Now, in the first place, if the Learned Counsel
were truly instructed, then the Roman Catholic Archbishop
of Dublin and all the Catholic bishops of Ireland must have
been under an interdict for the last 22 years. Was such a
statement made to the Lea ned Counsel? He (the Solicitor-
General) would venture to say that nothingoe
of
verythe kind Was.
seriouslytssau'caa.ls:
ever hiuted at; nor would any n
contend that a Roman Catholic bishop's
'unctions depended upon the title whi. h
sumed. But it was dangerous to act upon the opinion
if counsel without knowing the stalernent I id before
rim. He would rataner
ie trust to
aithe Opinion given by the
Right Hon. Gentlthe chr, who formed Iris jn dg
inent not only from the standing orders of the liouse,bui
from the clauses of the Bill which formed the subject mater
to which ;hose orders applied. Heft ad no doubt Mr. Speaker had arrived at a right conclusi on this question. Te
Right Hon. Member for Manchester (speaking ad invid lam)
said that when they were removing isilalnt whenliri
estthhe3 wereeH ouse
went into a preliminary Committee, but that
imposing disabilities they did not think i' necessary to go
into Committee. But the Right lion. Gentleman
perfectly aware of the reuses why
Committee on the Catholic must be
.the House wen'. into
lc Relief Bill. That was a measure
t'or altering an oath. There was a point remaining which
time when the order
was n of the
was used, he having et,heauHd twaihsee.o
the word "reli-
gion"
atthe
by the word "religionwas imneatnet fijfsatiptulaucuedcc.tednuctrirdiende,lhhaut
would now ask—but what faith and docbine? Was it not
Perfectly clear that it meant the faith and doctrine of the
Es-
tablished Church? The order meant that the House should
not tamper with the established religion, nor alter its doc-
trines, per
first having the sanction of a Committee of
the whole House. No law ••er on reading this Bill, would say
that it meant to effect a 3chring the doctrine or internal
economy of the Roman Catholicerngion ; and to say that
the Bill would alter or affect the established religion would
be absurd. The whole question was whether the
touched spiritualities. Locking at the Bill in every point f
nor
view, he was of opinion that it did not affectutureollit,
touch any spiritual function of the Roman
If he depended on precedents he might refer to many; for
instance, the Church Temporalities Act, the Tithes Commu-
tation Act, the Vestries Bill, the Curates Bill ; these and
other Dille had been pima Oritll9ll4 411 Y P 41141114417 ref"-

ence to a Committee of the whole lime; he, therefore,
thought that if the Home were to yield to the argunieut
which had been urged on this eccasion, it would complete!,c
stultify itself, and at the s true vine be acting in direct epee'
sition to the whole current of precedents.
Mr. GLADSTONE thoneht the present discussion would
have one useful result, in showing that. the precedents cn
this important question were in a state that was most unl!
tisfactory. Therefore, although that might not be a sti .
cient reason for interferring with the progress of the Bill, yet
he thought it was most desirable that some rule should e:
laid down for their future guidance, in order that an unt.
formity of practice might prevail in a matter of no incon:i
derable importance. The Solicitor-General had argued, 1,43_.
question with great fairness. The two main questionnr7
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ha 't stated. were-4
whe her the word " religion" in the standing order ineludee,
d
any religion except the established religion? and, if tta.T.sn.
then, secondly, whether, there being the Roman
lie religion in this country, it could be said that
_,p‘:
spiritualities were touched by this Bill or not? It ars,
peered to him ( Mr. Glads'one) that the Solicitor-Ge.ne
_;
was perfectly right in saying that the proper ineattiangT
the standing order was, that it regarded not religio
tf that
in
general, but the established religion of the country. - 0 for
were so, what was the course which precedent poi"tedet. tent
the House to follow? There was, he feared, no cen-"
or uniform precedent. The precedent of 1772 would.the
lead to the inference that Baps which tended to affeatab
s entities of the established"- religion ought to pass thaen,n.),
preliminary Committees. It was true the Act of 17"
the relief of the Roman Catholics was passed with". g
through any such Committee, but then there were ''you„4, for
preceuents the other way. There was the Act of lge et of
the repeal of the Corporation and Test Acts, the Mod
1829, for the Emancipation of the Roman Catholics, ooe
several other Bills, all of which were introl,
through the medium of a Committee. The,, Senfrs
tor-General had said that the reason those -13,"5 'bey
submit ed to an intermediate Committee was, that t
altered an enth. He (Mr. Gladstone) did not tllO that
circumstance circumstance was alone sufficient to account for the pracll4o
He was of opinion that the standing order was intended 4.
protect the established religion ; -and that whenever P
ment dealt with the securities which the esteblieheclrreli-
gion posse sed, whether geed or bad, the Bills so dealing.ee.
with them must pass through a preliminary Cowl:040e
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman had also said ',Ol
th- meaning of • the standing order was that Parliallist
should not tamper with the established religion; but the
when measures were to be passed for strengthening the sea.
rities of that religion then it was not necessary for euchnlimn
sure to go through a preliminary Committee. -fl"
,nth
Gladstone) believed that that argument contained the r to
and OA of the whole matter, that that was the doctrine
e,
be extrac!ed from the whole !nap of precedents before theinr
and that Bills which 'injuriously affected, weakened, bet
diminished the securities of the Established Church, ettee
to pass through a preliminary Committee; but that Bill„„
which purported to strengthen those securities did not .n
quire to go through that preliminary st mge. Looking, heebe
ever, at the preamble of the present Bill, he confessed
thought that rule ought to be applied both ways.-(0P a'
hear.) This Bill was not like one for repealing a Utz; b
it was a measure which, while giving to one party+ to
taking away from another; while it tended to strengtn.
the Church of England. it took from the Roman Cathelio
that which they would otherwise enjoy. The question win
t
one involved in considerable difficulties; and he thoughti
would be wise, whether with reference to the present ltiht
to the future course of legislatien, to appoint a Commit
inquiry in order to fix upon some clear and
authoritstl;
construction of this important standing order, so that '4
practice of the House, which had been hitherto confused
unintelligible, might be meth. clear, practical, and intellinw;
Mr. SADLEIR, thought the very showing of Governmente,
in their speeches proved the Bill had reference to the tenetbo
blished Church. Indeed, he believed the Bill went .fign:
than was ever contemplated by the restrictive clauses'Of "
Act of 1829.
r
The gallery was then cleared for a division. but after
short interval the door was re-opened, and we found Lord J. RUSSELI4 addressine the House. He was be
serving there was no ground for further delay t
on the subie,bse
The instances of the Corporation and Test Acts and of o
relief of Roman Catholic disabilities, quoted by the Rig n Hon. Member (Mr. Gladstone), referred to supposed seeetnd
ties for the religion of the country, and those in ecedentsiu,it
not apply to the present case. • He did not believe a Se'ree
Committee could do anything more than leave the queen"-
to the discretion of the House.
Mr. BRIGIIr recollected that the Noble Lord had wiPni
drawn clauses from the Bill, on the ground that they afreen"fe
the spiritualities of the Roman Catholic faith, and therele-
tee bill came within the undoubted practice of the House:„
The Noble Lord invited the House to inflict an injury n°-
8,000,000 or 10,000,000 inhabitants of the United Kingcli;
and to pass over certain rules which the Established Cnutcao
had insisted on for its own security. The Roman Cahn"
population stood before the House in precisely the same reit;
tion as the members of the Established Church and taln
Noble Lord ought to have been more careful, when taken!;away their rights, to proceed with the utmost caution than
if he were engaged on a matter which would affect the power
of the dominant church. It would be only fair, in order to
satisfy the Roman Catholics to refer the quest on to a select
Committee, when they would see the House proceed with
as much care and delicacy in their case as in that of the Ea'
tablisheil Church.
The House then divided, when there appeared-
For the motion of adjournment .. 53
Against it ... 179
Majority for going on wills the debate-126
On returning to the gallery,
Mr. LAWLESS was speaking. He did not believe the
majority represented the sense of the House, but that they
represented the influence of the Government. He would
move that the House be adjourned.-(0h! oh!)
Mr. GRATTAN, as a Protestant Member, wished to se-
cond the motion, and appealed to the Noble Lord not to preen
the question as a m Ater ot good feeling.
Lord J. RUSSELL said , hat he had seen in the majoritt
many Hun. Members who had in general been oPpoied to his
Government, and that he had never seen a more attentive
House than had been present during this debate. That the
House should now be celled on to adjourn made him suspect
Hen. Gentlemen had faltered in the resolution which it was
said they had come to-not to make any factious opposition
to the Bill-a resolution which he had very much admired.
(Hear, and laughter.) They had heard the opinion of the
Speaker and or several Hon. Members well acquainted with
the forms of the House, and it there were any Irish Members
who thought they had a better opinion on points of order
than the Speaker and these Hon. Members, perhaps it would
be as well for the House to hear it.
Mr. REYNOLDS disclaimed any intention of offering a
factious opposition, but was not aware that any such resoe
lutiou as the Noble Lord mentioned had been agreed upon-
He was afraid the Irish Members would disappoint the Noble
Lora in his anticipations of their political politeness. WI
the Noble Lord consent to nominate a Select Committee, an
he (Mr. Reynolds) would not object to the debate going en
'part passu ?
Mr. KEOGH thought the Noble Lord had admitted it
might be desirable to examine into precedents, which was
in effect allowing the propriety of a Committee. If be
granmed the Committee, they would not ppose his proceed-
ing with the Bill. 'I he Speaker said the reason why the
order of the House did not apply was, that the Bill did not
,Iffect the spiritualities of the Reman Catholic Church. The
Solicitor-General argued that the order did not apple,becanse
it was intended to refer to the Protestant religion exclusively
Surely such a difFeience of opinion was good ground fur a
Committee.
Sir G. GREY denied that his Noble Friend had expressed
any opinion in favour of a Committee. He had argued that
d
the question was of a different nature from those which ba
been referred to.
Mr. ANSTEY was of opinion that the course the Roman
sere
Catholic Members were pursuing was not calculated to I`,
the minority opposed to the Bill. He desired to separate
himself from them, because their object was evidently to
th.ow obstructions in the way of the House, and prevent it
from procee.line with the Bill.
Mr. MOORE expressed his surprise that the Hon. Mein'
ber, who had hitherto been the very personification of obstrun'
tion-who had spent one whole session in obstructing every'
thing-his own Bill among the rest-(A laugh)-should nowlecture others for following his example. Every Member
unconnected with the Government who bad spoken in the
course of the debate admitted tee desirableness of appointing
a Committee. If the Noble Lord would consent to the ar
pointment of a Cemmi tee, the motion for adjournment
wou'd be at once withdrawn.
The House divided, when there appeared -
For the adjournment ... „. 36
Against it ... ... 145
Majority - •- 109
The motion was then renewed for the Speaker leaving
the chair f r going into Coluniittee on the Bill, upon which •
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL rose to explain to the House
his reasons for opposing it, as he had not an opportunity
of doing so on the second reading. He considered that
the act of the Pope was not such as to have callel for
legislation on the part of either House of Parliament.
,Up to last autumn the Roman Catholics of England were
governed by a body of vicars apostolic, and those vicars
apostolic wire the nominees of the Pope. The Bill before
the House had been met
by a great display of opinion in the
country. That feeling
slnead through the length and
breadth of the land, and the
present attempt at legislation
was the result of a certain undefined wish on the part of
the people, that Parliament should do something. age
could not, as some Hon. Gentlemen contended, look at that
movement as one emanating from the Church of England'
The excitement out of doors was merely proof of an anxiety
of feeling in the country that this
House should interfere .
on t subj,ct was ahog-ethe
in religious matters. He thought,however, that legisla-
tionlf the
Courch Phisngland If
were attacked, let it defend itself. .
e,s .
the p nominees presumed to claim temporal or civil
r uneceseary.
authority over the Sovereign of these realine, then would be
the time to interfere, and no loyal Roman Catholic would
refuse to aseist.
oppose end lie would j •be
He should the progress of the Bill,
um in every legitimate division that could taken on its merits at future stages.
Mr. URQUHART said, that when he last addressed the
House he was virtually precluded from entering nine any
question but that of the
conduct of time Government. Since
that period the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
had opened up a branch of the question which
he appeared to
to_ord
de
him of great importance, and upon whichwished
Papal Government
La dress a few considerations to the Hous
e.
The
State t that the motive and object of the
not
a religious but a
in the step it had lately taken had been
Pope, political one; that the Government of the operated
Capon by the Government of certain other European countries,
who were alarmed at the great influence which England
exercised on the Continent in favour of Liberalism and Con-
ke the step
had been induced to take stit utional government,
in question for the purpese of setting England in a flame;
that, in short, the measureorigin,
had a diplomatic
.
was the noble Lord alone this Statements in
a similar strain (which he quote d) had been statement. St at
Member for Bath, tor the University of Ox-
versify made by Lord
Clarend, n, by the Hon.
Member
Or-
ford, by the Noble Lord the and others.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department had
said that it was impossible for us to meet the aggression by
diplomatic arrangement, because after the Pope had taken
so decided a course we should only expose ourselves by an
doing to huiniliatio.4 and defeat. The Master of the Rolls,
however, had used a very different argument. He said,
o How could we go to R, me after the introduction of the
clause into the Diplomatic Relations Bill which had offended
the Pope and vitiated the action of that measure?"-(Hear.)
The whole question had been placed in a faulty position by
the introduction of the topic of the law of nations; for
there were no treaty rights with respect to the Pope, and
unless the Pops had injured one of our citizens, infringed our
territory, or done some such act, that question could not
arise. In Armenia the same conduct had been pursued as in
England by the Pope, but there, as the matter was treated
N 1 LI contempt, the Roman Catholics protested against it.
If, however, the same course had been pursued in Armenia
as hail been followed in England, and if the people had been
toll that by the act of the Pope the undivided sway of the
Su tan was in danger, probably the whole body of the
Armenians would have exhibited the same fervility as the
Roman Catholics here had shown to that potentate, the Pope.
The Hon. Member having referred to the occupation of Rome
by the F. ench, and to the offer, as he observed, of the Czar
of Russia's treasury and arms for the Pope's aid, expressed
his conviction that some cause other theta religious was the