The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-05 00:00:00

IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.

Mr. BROTHERTON begged to ask the Right Hon.
the Attorney-General whether the Bill for the Abolition of
Imprisonment for Debt would extend to judgments obtained
in the Court of Requests ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied in the affir-
mative.

Major FANCOURT presented several petitions from
places in Devon for the better observance of the Sabbath.
Mr. WILKS presented petitions from the Dissenters
of Brunswick-square Chapel, London, and of the city of
Litchfield, against the Church Rates Bill.
Mr. YOUNG presented a petition from a place the
name of which we did not hear, praying for an enactment
for the suppression of drunkenness.
Lord HOTH AM presented petitions from Worcester,
in support of the Established Church.
Mr. GOULBURN presented several petitions in
support of the Established Church, and against the claims
of Dissenters.

Mr. H. GRATTAN presented a petition from a parish
in Ireland, against tithes ; and gave notice that lie intended
to move, that any Ministry who would circumscribe the
liberties of the people of Ireland would be unworthy of the
confidence of the people.
Mr. BARING felt under the necessity of applying to
the Noble Lord opposite, whether it was his intention or
not to produce certain papers which he had given notice of
his intention to move for, (as we understood, relative to the
Commissioners of the National Debt), because if the Noble
Lord persevered in his refusal to produce them, it was his
intention to move for their return on Monday next.
Lord ALTHORP made an observation which was
quite inaudible.
Mr. W. W. WYNN wished to know from the Learned
Attorney-General, whether, considering the advanced period
of the session it would not be better either to have the
Registration Bill committed up stairs forthwith, or that it
should be taken some morning early.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not think it would
be possible to have it committed up stairs ; but he should
be happy to meet his Hon. Friend upon it any morning
within the next fortnight.
Mr. O'CONNELL stated that the Noble Lord oppo-
site at an early period of the sesssion had said it was his
intention to lay a proposition before the House, mate-
rially calculated to benefit the Irish revenue, and
also to afford relief to the Irish people, but which the
House bad heard nothing of ; and he wished to know
whether it was still the Noble Lord's intention to do so?
Lord ALTHORP said the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had misquoted his words—his words were, that it
would not injure Ireland.
Mr. P. THOMSON, in answer to a question, stated
that, with regard to the islands of Guernsey and Jersey,
the papers which had been produced distinctly showed
in confirmation of information which he had otherways
received that no such frauds as had been alleged had
been practised in those islands. With regard to the Isle
of Man inquiries were still going on, and every effort would
be made to prevent frauds there. At the same time while
the Isle of Man remained in the anomalous condition in
which it now was, it would be extremely difficult to adopt
such means as might prevent the suspicion of frauds being
practised there ; and if any measure were brought forward
to alter that condition, he should not be the last to give it
his support.
_ _

An Hos. MEMBER wished to know whether it was the
intention of his Majesty's Government to bring in any
measure for the purpose of placing the Isle of Man on the
same footing as that of other parts of his Majesty's do-
minions ?

Lord ALTHORP did not think so at present.

IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES ACT.

Mr. LITTLETON stated that he had intended
to submit a proposition to the House at once
with regard to the tithes of Ireland ; but on finding it
likely that the whole House would resolve itself into a,
Committee on the Irish Church Temporalities Act, he
had given notice, on Wednesday evening last, that he
would move such Committee of the whole House, and
consequently he now begged leave to move it.
Mr. SHAW presented petitions from several places in
Ireland in favour of the Irish Church.
On the motion of Mr.LITTLETONthe House resolved
itself into a Committee on the Church Temporalities
(Ireland) Bill, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair.
Mr. LITTLETON observed that as he had already
stated the nature of the proposed alterations, it was not
necessary for him now to repeat them at length. At this
moment, the measure stood thus :—that compositions pay.
able on Ist November next were to be converted into a
land-tax from that day, payable in the same amounts, and
by the same parties ; the collection of that land-tax, was to
be continued for five years, and after Nov. 1839, the own-
ers of the first estate of inheritance were to incur a rent-
charge, the amount of which was to be foux-fifths of the
amount of the composition : the land-ow2iers were to be
empowered to collect only the same amount from their
tenants as they themselves paid. It waa not unnaturally felt
that it was a considerable hardship to leave parties subject to
the rent-charge, without enabling them voluntarily to incur it,
or to relieve themselves from it by redemption. The clauses
relating to redemption had been struck out of the Bill, but it
was not to be understood that Ministers thought means might
not be found hereafter to accomplish the object of redemption.
In the interval, it. was desirable
i to induce those who might in-
cur the rent-charge to take t upon themselves voluntarily,
and at an early period. A considerable bonus was therefore
offered, and as the machinery was contained in clauses that
had been printed and circulated, it was not necessary to dwell
upon it. The Right Honourable Gentleman then entered
into the following calculations, with a view to show what the
bonus would be at different rates of purchase. Thus, for in-
stance :

Yrs. purchase Minus Equal to yrs. At se per Ct. Bonus,
of land. of Tithes.. Minus amounts to per Ct.
28 4-sths ......... 22 ......... 2-sths ... £7B 5 6
2.1 .... ..... ... 4.sths
2-sths ... 70 0 0 ...... 30
20 -sths
But in the last-mentioned case the bonus could not fall lower
than 40 per cent., because a limitation would be introduced
into the bill that the bonus should never be less than twenty,
por more than forty per cent. The question then arose from

whence this bonus was to be paid, and it was proposed by
Ministers that it should be paid upon all tithes ecclesiastical
or impropriate, from the Consolidated Fund. The Consoli-
dated Fund was to be indemnified among other things, by the
perpetuity purchase-fund in the hands of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners. In the discussion last session upon the 147th
clause, it was very generally admitted that this fund could
scarcely be considered church property.--( Cheers, and " No,
no.") He had ascertained from Mr. Earle, one of the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners, that the fund for general purposes
would produce an income of about 91,000/, and as the expen-
diture for indispensable purposes would not amount to more
than 66,000/., a balance and clear surplus of 25,000/. would
be left in the hands of the Commissioners, to be dedicated to
optional purposes. The Commissioners were also by this time
enabled to form a notion of the probable amount of the perpe-
tuity purchase-fund. Mr. Earle represented that it would be
at least 1,200,000/. At this moment the Commissioners had
60,0001. in hand, and it would soon be greatly increased. He
had no doubt that this plan would be approved by a majority
of the House, and all parties felt convinced that it was neces-
sary to make a great sacrifice to secure the payment of the
dues of the Church, and to deprive Ireland of a fruitful source
of agitation.
Mr. H LIME asked how much money would be advanced
(vat of the Consolidated Fund?

Mr. LITTLETON added, that the 25,0001. of which he
had spoken was a balance in hand applicable to optional pur-
poses. It was impossible to ascertain precisely the extent of
the draft on the Consolidated Fund, because it was voluntary
on the landlords to take the rent-charge upon themselves. He
had heard at 100,0001. a year. The income from the
1,200,0001. Perpetuity Service Fund would not be quite half
that amount.

Mr. SHAW inquired if the same regulations would apply
to lay impropriators ?
Mr. L ITTL ET ON answered in the affirmative. When con-
sidering a plan for the settlement of the tithe question in Ire-
land it had not been thought that a different policy should be
adopted towards one species of tithe property than towards ano-
ther, and it was an undoubted fact, capable of proof by calcu-
lation, that the resistance to impropriate tithes had been
stronger and more extensive than the resistance to the pay-
ment of ecclesiastical tithes. The Right Hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving a resolution to the effect, " That the
Commissioners certify to the Treasury, on the Ist of Novem-
ber in each year, the amount of deficiency arising out of the
voluntary rent charges, and that any deficit shoud be made
good out of the Consolidated Fund of the united kingdom,and
that the ecclesiastical commissioners should make good out
of the Perpetuity Purchase Fund so much of the sums so ad-
vanced as shall be required."
Mr. HUME did not clearly understand the statement of
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He understood him (Mr. Little-
ton) to say that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had at their
disposal 91,0001., and that from this sum 66,0001. were to be
deducted, which would leave a balance of 25,000/.

Mr. LITTLETON said that he had stated, that under the
operation of the Irish Church Temporalities Bill, a fund would
arise which would remain in the hands of the Commissioners
to be appropriated by Parliament. There were other sources
of revenue underthe same bill, the entire yearly aniount of
which would be 90,0001., but there were charges in it for
many purposes to the extent of 66,0001., and thus a balance
would remain of 25,000/.
Mr. HUNIE observed that that was what he had stated.
Mr. LITTLETON made a remark which was nut heard in
the gallery.
Mr. HUME said that a considerable difference would exist
between the probable sum to be advanced out of the Consoli-
dated Fund, and the amount that would be derived from the
sources mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. LITTLETON observed that it was possible such
might be the fact.
Mr. H UME said that a large sum might be required to pay
the bonus on lay tithes, in addition to any loss that might
accrue on ecclesiastical tithes.

Mr. O'CONNELL was anxious to know whether the
Right Hon. Gentleman had taken into his calculations the
sum that would be required to be deducted from the funds in
the hands of the ecclesiastical commissioners on account of the
vestry cess?
Mr. LITTLETON answered in the affirmative. The
whole amount they would have to pay for things necessary for
divine worship, and salaries of clerks, would be 35,0001. a-year.
Mr. LYNCH made two or three observations which were
inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. ROBINSON trusted that the Committee would un-
derstand the question before it agreed to the proposition of the
Right Hon. Gentleman. (His Mr. Littleton's) statement was
not very clear on the subject. If he (Mr. Robinson) under-
stood the matter, there was to be a change in the consoli-
dated fund, which might now be said to be a vortex which
swallowed up everything. The consolidated fund was to be
made chargeable for the payment of the bonus, without any
charge for the repayment of the money. He, for one, would
decidedly object to such a proposition.
Lord A L THO Rl' said that the object of his resolution was
to make good any deficit that might arise from the payment
of the bonus out of the consolidated fund, and that the security
should be the perpetuity purchase fund. It was perfectly fair
to argue, though there was no probability of such a thing oc-
curring, that the whole of the land-tax could be converted
into a rent-charge ' • but if such a mode of proceeding were al-
lowable, he ( Lord Althorp) would be justified in estimating
the annuity fund at a much larger amount than he had done.
It was quite true that if the amount of the deficit should exceed
100,000/. a year, that was more than the resources of his
Right Hon. Friend had provided for ; but the circumstance of
its ever reaching that amount was very unlikely. His Hon.
Friend had stated the probable amount of the funds that would
be in the hands of the ecclesiastical commissioners. The
House, therefore, could have no difficulty in under-
standing the general state of the question. If the charge
was not repaid out of the perpetuity fund, it would
remain with the House to consider the question at a future
time, in order to see whether the money ought not to be
taken out of the consolidated fund. It was quite true
that there would be no security as to the re-payment of
the money by the lay impropriators ; but the amount which
would fall on the country in the event of any deficit on their
parts could not be considerable ; it could not exceed 20,0001.
a year. If they, however, were to purchase the pacification
of Ireland, he did not think that in an economical point of
view, laying higher considerations out of sight, that it would
be a bad expenditure of money.—( Hear.) He (Lord Al-
thorp) maintained there was a prospect of producing peace in
Ireland by the present plan, as it would throw the burden on
the shoulders of the landlord, whereas it had been hitherto on
those of the tenant. He was sure that with such a prospect
the House would not grudge the pecuniary sacrifice.
Mr. O'CONNELL concurred with the Noble Lord, that
if the 20,0001. to be paid yearly in the manner and for the
purpose mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman was to pur-
chase the peace and prosperity of Ireland, the sum would be
very inconsiderable. So far would he be from grudging that
amount for an object of such great importance, that he
would willingly give twenty times 20,0001., if he thought that
sum would secure it. But the Noble Lord had very properly
used the word " ff."--( A laugh.) Your "ifs" are always
great peace-makers.—( Laughter.) The only way to insure
the peace and tranquillity of Ireland would be to abolish tithes
altogether, and support the clergy out of the ecclesiastical funds.
They had been told by the Right Hon. Gentleman that a
great boon had been conferred on Ireland by the abolition of
the vestry cess. It had been stated that the vestry cess
amounted to 75,000/. per annum. It now pops out, however,
that it does not exceed 35,0001. The thing was all a decep-
tion on Ireland, and that deception arose from its being sup-
posed that all the parishes paid the same amount. The ques-
tion alluded to ought, in his (Mr. O'Connell's) opinion, to be
referred to a committee up stairs. The proposition of the
Right Hon. Gentleman was a mere clap-trap.—( A laugh.)
If carried, it would only make the bill worse than before. He
would vote for the 147th clause ; but beyond that he would
tell the House that its money would be all thrown away.
Col. D AVIE S said, that what had been that evening pro-
posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman was only a delusion. So
long as the people were compelled to pay for the support of a
church to which they did not attend, and of which they disap-
proved, so long would there be discontent and disturbances in
Ireland. He should like to know how the 120,0001. was to be
realised. There ought to be bounds set to the giving away of
the public money, and this with regard to Ireland, as well as
other parts of the empire.
Sir ROBERT PEEL was anxious that before the Com-
mittee discussed the question, they should have a more satis-
factory statement before them than that which had just been
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman. If he did not miscon-
ceive the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement, he estimated
the maximum charge for commuting ecclesiastical tithes at
100,0001., and the maximum charge for commuting lay tithes
at 26,0001., making together a charge of 126,0001. a year on
the consolidated fund. The Right Hon. Gentleman supposed
that the amount of the perpetuity found would be 1,200,000/. ;
that 91,000/. would arise from different sources of revenue
under the Church Temporalities Act ; that there was an an-
nual charge on this of 60,000/. ; thus leaving a surplus of
25,000/. The interest of this 1,200,000/. at 31 per cent.
would be 44,000/. a-year. This sum, added to 23,0001.,
would make up 67,0001., which was to make up for the money
taken from the consolidated fund. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man calculated the maximum charge at 120,0001. a-year, and
if he ( Sir R. Peel) was not mistaken, the bonus on some
lands was 40 per cent.
Mr. LITTLETON said that the bonus could not exceed
40 per cent., nor be less than 20 per cent.
Sir R. PEEL said there was no security whatever with respect
to lay tithes. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman how
he calculated with respect to them ? The if on. Member for
Worcester had said the Consolidated Fit-nd was like a general
vortex, which swallowed up every thing. He ( Sir R. Peel)
must confess that he did not see +,,,e propriety of the metaphor
as applied to the Consolidater.i. Fund--( A laugh)—but if em-
ployed in reference to tithes in Ireland, it was a good meta-
phor ; for their security might be compared to a vortex.—
(Laughter.) The totsl loss which the Consolidated Fund
would have to bear, assuming the calculation of the Right
Hon. Gentleman to be correct, would be 53,000/. He did
ot wish at that time to go into the argument ; but he was
anxious to have the thing properly understood. The Noble
Lord talked of some future arrangements, so as to relieve the
Consolidated Fund. Was it not, then, absurd to talk of the
settlement of the tithe question, while future arrangements
were in contemplation ?
Mr. D. ROCHE said the amount could not be charged on
the consolidated fund if they did not get it.—(A laugh.)
Mr. O'REILLY said that no measure would give peace to
Ireland if the people were not relieved altogether from the
payment of tithes. He would have no objection to this country
taking on itself the payment of any sum which had for its
object the exemption of the people- of Ireland from the pay-
ment of these obnoxious imposts.—( A laugh.) If this Pro-
testant Parliament and this Protestant country were willing to