The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-31 00:00:00

take the part which Vrottid at once be beneficial to the commu-
nity and himself.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Right Hon. Baronet had mis-
understood hia proposition, which was, that the landlords, and
not ',:ne Government should collect the arrears. It was said,
vindicate the law. How ? By making war on the people.
The law was a very fine thing, but not in opposition to the
people. He would let the law go, and conciliate the people.
He contended that his proposition only went to work out the
principle of the Bill. As to the landlords being taken by sur-
prise, that could not be the case, for he had given a notice in-
volving the principle on the 2d or 3d of May. The Hon.
Member for Limerick, too, had given similar notices.
Sir R. PEEL contended that he had not misunderstood the
Hon. and Learned Member. The landlord was to collect that
which a man refused to pay ; and must he not then apply to
the Government for assistance ?
Mr. LITTLETON said the Right Hon. Baronet had
spoken of a total intermission in the collection of tithes for
two years. Such was not the case. He defied any man to
name an instance in which the assistance of Government had
been formally applied for, and in which it had been refused.
Mr. SHAW would not then discuss that point with the
Right Hon. Secretary, although he easily might, for he had
sufficient materials ; but he would ask what had made an ap-
plication to the Government for assistance necessary? Why,
the conduct of the Government.—( Hear, hear.) The Go-
-1 vernment had superseded the law, withdrawn from the tithe
proprietor the ordinary means of making good his rights, and
hence the difficulty. Those who had been anxious to see the
law violated would hardly wish to sec the law vindicated—
( Hear, hear)—but he contended that it would be most unjust to
thrust the proposed responsibility on the landlord until the law
had been vindicated.
Lord ALTHORP thought that it was in no wise inconsis-
tent, with his anxiety as early as possible to relieve the occu-
pying tenant from the pressure of tithes, by placing them
upon the landlord, that he should desire to pass the present
Bill before the close of the Session. If the Bill did not pass
they would be compelling the landlords to pay for the entire
support of the Church, without at the same time affording them
the smallest prospect of being able to reimburse themselves.
Had it been possible he would have been glad to have intro-
duced a Bill at once imposing the tithe upon the landlord,
but as that was at present impossible he thought they had no
course left but to agree to the present Bill. Such being his
view of the case, it was unnecessary for him to say he would
feel bound to persevere with it.
After a few words in explanation from Sir R. PEEL,
Mr. PERRIN supported the amendment of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin.
Mr. SHEIL was adverse to any delay in the final adjust-
ment of the question. If the Government were anxious to
establish peace in Ireland they ought at once to pass a just
Tithe Law, and not threaten to bring in year after year further
measures upon the subject.
Mr. A. LEFROY quite concurred with the Noble Lord
( Althorp) in thinking it would be unfair to impose the pay-
ment of tithes upon the landlords without giving them oppor-
tunity to consider the terms upon which the proposition was
offered as the means of reimbursing themselves. He admitted
that in the early part of the last year the Government did give
every assistance in their power to ensure the collection of
tithe, and that the people were then willing to pay it ; but
he was bound to say that since the time the Noble Lord (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) used the unfortunate expres-
sion that tithe was done away with, not only had the people
resisted its collection, but the Government had considerably
relaxed in their endeavours to assist it.
Mr. ABERCROMB Y contended for the expediency of
passing the present measure, always having it in view that in
the end the tithe was to be transferred to the land.
Lord CLEMENTS said a few words in support of the
original clause.
After a short explanation from Mr. SHAW,
Mr. CALLAGHAN Said that as a tithepayer and a tithe-
collector he felt himself bound to support the amendment of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dulin.
Mr. LEFROY opposed the making it compulsory on the
landlords to be responsible for the payment of tithe, particu-
larly as the present measure was not a final adjustment of the
tithe question.
Colonel O'GRADY said that he should support the amend-
ment, for he had some reason to know that it would be acceptable
to the landlords of Ireland. This very subject had been made
a matter of consideration and discussion with the Grand Jury
of the county of Limerick in his presence, and they unani-
mously concurred in taking upon themselves the payment of
the tithes. He could, he believed, speak with equal confidence
of the concurrence of the Grand Juries of the counties of Cork
and Kerry ; and as the members of all those Grand Juries
were necessarily landed proprietors,- this was, he thought, a
pretty good criterion of the feelings of the landlords of Ireland
on the point of compulsory power.
Mr. O'RE IL L Y could not entirely concur with the propo-
sition of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, because
it called upon the landlords to burden their 'estates, without
knowing or feeling that their doing so would conduce to the
peace or tranquillity of Ireland. The only way of giving peace
to Ireland would be to relieve the rack-rent tenants from all
connection with tithe, and without this it would be vain to
think of peace in that country.
An HON. MENinna (whose name we could not learn) said
that the greatest curse that could befal Ireland at the present
moment would be any change in the Government. Such a ca-
lamity would at one?: put an end to all the operations of the
law in that country. The law was now dethroned there, and
if a change of Government were to take place, the law would
never be able to resume the throne again, such would be the
political excitement that it would create.

Mr. O'CONNELL wished to impress on the House that
the object of his amendment was, that if the landlords would
not take the boon that was offered the tenants should have the
advantage of it.
Lord ALTIIORP said that the object of the Government
was to hold out to the landlords a temptation to take upon
themselves the payment of tithes.
Dr. LUSHINGTON said that to save Ireland from a civil
war he should support the amendment of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin.

After a few words from Captain JONES in support of the
original clause the gallery was cleared for a division—
For the amendment
For the original motion 33
Majority against Ministers
On our entering the gallery we found

Lord ALTHORP addressing the Committee, and as soon
as the confusion of the House would admit of our hearing the
low tones in which his Lordship spoke, we understood him to
say that after what had just taken place he thought the best
course would be to postpone all the clauses which referred to
this part of the subject until the close of the proceedings upon
the Bill. With respect to this question he would say that it
was a hard measure on the landlords, at least the great
majority of the Irish landlords in that House thought so.—
( Hear, hear.) The clause would have carried more speedily
into execution the principles of the Bill.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that whatever course the Noble
Lord proposed he thought it the duty of every Hon. Member
in that House to give all the aid in his power to the Bill.
Mr. SHAW said that, after the sort of opposition which the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had received from Mi-
nisters, the Noble Lord was entitled to the support of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP had never wished to press on the House
to vote in favour of any measure against which the House en-
tertained a decided objection. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman forgot the change that had just taken place.—( Hear,
hear, and cheering.) He (Lord Althorp) was ready to admit
that on occasions when he thought some great principle in-
volved, if a motion were carried against him, he had declared
that he could not conscientiously carry on the Government.
He should make the same declaration now if the clause in
question had been'of such a tendency.
Mr. SHAW believed that the Noble Lord had not wished
that the clause should be carried in the way he had proposed
Cries of " Hear, hear," and " No, no.") He could only
say that the clause had been opposed by Hon. Gentlemen who
had been in the habit on all occasions of giving their support
to Ministers- He had heard some of these Hon. Gentlemen
confess that Ministers secretly wished the clause to be lost—
(Cries of " Name, name.")
An Hon. MEMBER corroborated the latter assertion.
Lord ALTHORP said that he had not wished the Irish
Members to vote against their opinions, but at the same time
he denied that he had wished the clause to be lost. He
thought that the effect would be injurious in carrying the Bill.
into execution.

Mr. O'CONNELL said it was impossible for the House
to go on with the other clauses that night, and, if they were
postponed till to-morrow, after that his opposition to the Bill
would cease.—(Hear, hear.)
On the motion of Mr. LITTLETON, clauses 4 to 41 were
postponed.
Clause 42 was negatived, and clauses from 49 to 56 were
omitted.

Mr. SHAW objected to this omission, for the clauses in-
volved the whole principle of the Bill. The large majority
within these two minutes had not altered his opinion on the
subject.

In answer to a question from Mr. LEFROY,
Lord ALTHORP said he considered that the rent charge
was less liable to objection than any other mode of redemption
proposed.

LEPROY said that notwithstanding all he had heard,
he was still ignorant of the views of Government on the sub-
ject of appropriation. He was now told that the principle was
fixed upon. If the principle was that the Church property of
Ireland was to be applied to other purposes than those of the
Church, it would be no longer in his power to support this
Bill. Indeed the rejection of the redemption clause would be
quite sufficient inducement with him to reject the Bill altoge-
ther, and confirmed his opposition to it more and more. An
objection of the Noble Lord ( Althorp) to the plan first pro-
posed, was the quantity of land that might in consequence be
thrown into mortmain. The objection was very plausible, and
if there was no answer to it, would justify the Noble Lord.
He would, however, beg to call to the recollection of the
House that by the Church Temporalities Bill more land would
be brought out of mortmain than would be thrown into it by
the measure first proposed. He could not admit that the se-
curity of a rent charge was equal to that of a redemption. The
great object of redemption was to do away completely with
all those recollections connected with the nature and the ap-
plication of tithe in Ireland. A rent charge would not have
this effect. It would be liable to the very same objections as
tithe itself. It would still be levied as a charge for the support
of the Protestant Clergy, and occasion not fewer difficulties
and objections than it did under the name of tithe. An in-
vestment in land would not be liable to the same objections.
He ventured to pledge himself that in three years there would
arise the same conspiracy against the rent charge as existed
against tithe. There wouldin levying
thounde haws ionlaen. The
y difficulties in
levying three-fourths as levin

measure would do nothing for the Clergy, would not relieve
the tenants, and would only enable the landlords to get a
higher rent. The Bill would prove most injurious to the pre-
sent incumbents. It would deprive them of two-`.'fifths of their
income, and place them at the mercy of new paymasters that
would not prove more satisfactory than the former.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained leave
to sit again to-morrow.
ASSESSED TAXES.

The House went into Committee on the Assessed Taxes
Composition Bill.

On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, a new clause was added
to the Bill, the effect of which will be to exempt from tax any
windows that may hereafter be opened in houses already as-
sessed.—Report to-morrow.
EXCISE ACTS.

The House went into Committee on the Excise Acts.
The resolution being put, which reduces the duty on Irish
spirits,

Sir G. MURRAY said there was a departure here from the
principle of equality of taxation on which the Noble Lord
professed to act. • The Noble Lord ( Althorp) seemed to think
that the quantity of spirits distilled was always the same, and
that any difference in the amount of duty paid arose from illi-
cit distillation. He did not know what means the Noble Lord
had to ascertain this. The injury done to Scotland by this
change would not be confined to the Highlands, but extend
over all Scotland, and he did not think it fair to that part of
the empire. The Noble Lord assigned as a reason that he
cculd not risk more than 200,0001. revenue. Why not then
make the risk equal, by doing away with one shilling duty in
both countries ? He would not divide the Committee upon
the point, but he would not have done his duty, not being in
the House when it was proposed, if he did not call the atten-
tion of the Noble Lord to it.

Lord ALTH ORP said this alteration was proposed partly
on the ground that it would be a benefit to Scotland. In Ire-
land the duty was higher than in Scotland, and he did not
think, therefore, it would be justifiable to adopt the course
proposed by the Gallant Officer. A reduction of duty in Ire-
land to the amount of one shilling would have no effect. Illicit
distillation was now going on there very briskly, and so small
a reduction would not impede it much. The reduction would
not cause more smuggling from Ireland than at present
existed. If he saw that there was an advantage gained from
the reduction of the duty on spirits he might take off the
drawback on malt in Scotland. The question, however, was
one that could not be taken into consideration before next
Session.

Captain GORDON said that unless the drawback on ma]
was taken off the distillers of Scotland would be ruined.

Mr. SINCLAIR said that great injustice had been done to
Scotland, and he would advise the Scotch Members, if they
desired that Government should do good to their country, to
take a leaf out of the Marquis of Anglesey's book, and to
Agitate, agitate."

An Hon. MEMBER contended that the reduction would not
Licrease smuggling in Scotland, and that it would be beneficial
to the agricultural interests there, since it would afford them a
better chance-of exporting their barley to Ireland. He should
therefore support the Noble Lord on the question.
Mr. CALLAGHAN said that if Government had given the
same encouragement to the landlords of Ireland that had been
given to the Scotch landlords, the Irish would have conducted
themselves in the same way.
Mr. RUTH VE N said that if the large Irish distilleries were
well managed by proper men, and by good excise Laws, it
would contribute more to suppress illicit distilleries than any
oppressive enactment.

Mr. EWING said that the Noble Lord would not have
made this reduction if he was aware of the demoralization it
would produce among the lower classes in Ireland.
The resolutions were then agreed to, and a Bill founded
thereon ordered to be brought in.
On the motion of Mr. 0' C ONNE LL, the Burning of Lands
(Ireland) Bill was ordered to be read a second time this day
six months.

The Dean Forest Bill went through Committee. Report
to-morrow. •

The Excise Revenue Management Bill was read a third
time and passed.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS' (INDIA) BILL.
On the motion that the Insolvent Debtors' (India) Bill be
read a third time,

Colonel PERCE VAL begged to call the attention of the
House to the conduct pursued by the Hon. and Learned Mem-
bcr for Dublin with respect to the Burning of Lands (Ireland)
Bill. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was well aware that
(Colonel Perceval) intended that night to move the second
reading of the above-mentioned Bill ; and yet in a moment,
without any consideration or notice, profiting by his temporary
absence, the Hon. and Learned Member rose and moved that
the Bill be read a second time that day six months. There
was in this transaction a want of courtesy and liberality On the
part of the Hon. and Learned Member. But it was not the
first time the Hon. and Learned Member comported himself
in a discourteous and ungenerous manner. The Bill in ques-
tion had passed the Lords, and when it was arrived at another
stage he (Colonel Perceval) had waited several times till past
two o'clock to advance it. At last he found that the Bill had
been passed over in consequence of the Hon. and Learned
Member going in an ungenerous manner to the Clerk of the
House and telling him the Bill had been given up. He was
obliged to refer to the Speaker, and in consequence of the in-
terference of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Bill was again
placed on the orders of the House. He mentioned these facts to
show the uncourteous and ungenerous conduct pursued by the
Hon. and Learned Member. He believed that out of the
658 Members of that House there was not one except the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin that would have acted as he
had done. Just now, seeing that the question before the
House would occupy some time, he was talking to two Hon.
Members in the lobby, when the Hon. and Learned Member,
taking advantage of his absence, moved that the Bill be read
a second time that day six months, and succeeded in his mo-
tion. He left it to the House to judge of conduct fraught with
sa much ungenerosity. The Bill was one intended for the
benefit of the poor in Ireland—( Oh, oh)—and he thought
had a right to complain of the conduct of the Hon. and
Learned Member since he would now obtain no other redress,
and since he was the very last man who would have acted in
so unhandsome a manner towards the Hon. and Learned
Member.

Mr. M. O'CONNELL regretted the absence of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, against whom such a tirade
had been directed. He was sure the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber meant nothing uncourteous towards any man, and least of
all towards the Hon. Member for Sligo. Whenthe Hon. and
Learned Member came next into the House he would un-
doubtedly make a fair answer to the charge. The Bill was
not one that would benefit the poor of Ireland.
Colonel PERCE VAL mentioned the circumstance then as
being the fittest opportunity of doing so.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL acknowledged that the Hon. and
Gallant Member always acted courteously towards them, and
he hoped that the matter would be allowed to end there.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
The Trading Companies' Bill was also read a third time
and passed.
The Foreign Enlistment Bill went through Committee._
Report on Friday next.
The LORD ADVOCATE brought up the Report on the Royal
Burghs ( Scotland) Bill.
Mr. BLAMIRE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to alter
an Act of the last Session of the last Parliament, entitled
" An Act for shortening the time for claims of Modus Diu-
mandi, or for exemption from a discharge from tithes."
After a few observations from the ATTORNEY-GENERAL and
Mr. G. F. YOUNG, the motion was agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. E. J. STANLEY, leave was given to
bring in a Bill to amend an Act of the present Session rela-
tive to the salaries of the civil servants.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, a message was ordered
to be sent to the Lords requesting that the Bishop of London
might attend to be examined before the Education Committee.
Mr. E. J. STANLEY presented a copy of the Report of
the Commissioners on the Criminal Laws.
Mr. H. HUGHES presented a petition from seventy-
eight proprietors of short stage-coaches against the Stage-
Coach Bill.
The House adjourned at half-past eleven.

Sir John Milley Doyle has been restored to his
rank in the Portuguese service. The recent conviction of
General Bacon, on the charges preferred by Marshal Saldanha,
-led to-the revocation of the order which deprived Sir John of
his post.

•
THE NEW PREMIER.--William Lamb, Viscount
Melbourne in the peerage of Ireland ; Baron Melbourne in
the peerage of the United Kingdom, and a Baronet of Eng-
land; born 15th of March, 1779; married 13th of November,
1805, Caroline, daughter of Frederick, third Earl of Bes-
borough, by whom (who stied 25th of January, 1828) he has
issue, George Augustus Frederick, born 11th of August,
1807. His Lordship succeeded to the honours, as second
Viscount, at the decease of his father, 224 July, 1828, His
Lordship's brothers and sisters are—Frederick James, K. C. 8.,
born April, 1782, Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Pleni-
potentiary at the Court of Madrid. George, M.P. born 11th
July, 1784 ; married in 1809 Mademoiselle Caroline Rosalie
St. Jules (lately dead). Emily Mary married to Earl Cow-
per. Sir Penisten, his Lordship's fattier, was elevated to the
Peerage of Ireland on the Bth of June, 1770, as Lord Mel-
bourne, Baron of Kilmore, in the county of Cavan ; and cre-
ated Viscount Melbourne on the 11th January, 1781. His
Lordship was enrolled amongst the Peers of the United King-
dom on the 11th August, 1815, as Baron Melbourne. He died
no the 22d:July, 1828.—Burke's Peerage.
The Worshipful Charles Taylor, D.D., has ap-
pointed the Rev. J. A. Stewart, A. 8., Curate of Ross, a
Surrogate for granting marriage-licences, &c., within the
diocess of Hereford.

Mr. Burton, son of James Burton, Esq., and
brother of Decimus Burton, the architect, has for several
years been travelling in the east among the Arabs and the
Greeks. This gentleman is on his return to this country, en-
riched with much valuable information respecting the antiqui-
ties, languages, learning, manners, and customs of the various
tribes- and people with whom he has mingled. Mr. Burton
landed at Marseilles, accompanied by a suite of Arab and
Greek attendants. He has brought with him many natural
curiosities, and rare animals likewise.

VALUE OF THE BRITISH WEST INDIA COLO-
xxEs.—Since the establishment of the West India Colonies,
the exports from them to Great Britain amounted to
430,000,000/. sterling : and the value of merchandise exported
from Great Britain to the West Indies, 230,000,000/--balance
in favour of Great Britain, 200,000,0001.:—annual value of
imports from West Indies, 8,000,000/. ; ditto of exports to,
4,ooo,o,ool.—expended annually in England, 4,000,0001.
Front Montgomery .Martin's f .Fjistory of the British Colonies,'
21. West inches.