The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-18 00:00:00

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bad apmere4ke extianekce 4f One Consular est
TeaktieJWA the/theapriess oNthe American plc e.
bad been something of the Radical or Jacobin in the
Right Hon. Baronet on that occasion, but flow the Right
Hon. Baronet spoke entirely in a different tone. The
question which arose waa, whether the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had been sincere, when he spoke from that Bench
(the Opposition Bench) ; or, had he been actuated by
factious, or—he had almost said—seditious motives. He
(Mr. C.) would believe that the Right Hon. Baronet had
been sincere; but why should he now speak in so df-
ferent a eine—why should be nee, proposesuch an out-
rageous expenditure ? This was the very natural question.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, he was quice 'Nang to stake
his character for sincerity, upon what had been done
since the present Administration came into office, in the
two particulars of expenditure which had been the sub-
ject of discussien.—( Hear, hear.) Did the Hon. Member
meat really to say, that the i,.•*.evence of which he had
complained, with reference to ce.r Consular Establish.
rnente, still existed ?
Mr. HUME—eYes ; it does.
Sir J. GRAHAM denied that it did; and he would
show this by the simple statement, that instead of the
sums received at the time spoken of by onr Consuls—
namely, 90,0001. per annum—these Consuls now only
received 60,000/ a year ; being a reduction of not less
than 30,0001. effected by the present Administration in
this single item.—(Cheers.) Then, again, with reference
to his (Sir J. Grabem's) other motion—it had been against
the Cabinet of the Duke ef Wellington, four or five of
the Members of which held etnecure offices, in addition
to their effective office.. New, since the present Govern-
ment bad come into office, that previous abuse had been
done away with—(No, no)—end he believed that there
did not exist, in the present Cabinet, an instance of any
Member's holding any sinecure office to which salary was
attached, in addition to his effective office.
Several Hoer. MEMBERS exclaimed—" Lord Auckland,
Lord Auckland !"
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that certainly that Nobleman
bell several offices, and discharged the duties of them,
but be only received the salary of one of them ; so that
a snore ;happy illustration of the sincerity of Ministers
acting up to the principles professed by them when on
the Opposition Benches, could not have been given.
The Hon. Member for Middlesex had alluded to the
opinion of Sir G. Cockburn, as justifying the reduction
he proposed ; but when Sir George left the Admiralty, in-
stead of there being 17,000 men, or even the 25,000 pro-
posed, there was no less a force than 30,000. As
to the complaint of the Hon. Member for Oldham, that
the artificers were dealt more harshly with than the offi-
cers, he mast point out to the Hon. Member that another
part of that Hon. Member's speech, wherein he com-
plained of the addition of 10,0001. to the civil pensions,
completely answered his complaint about the alleged neg-
lect of the artificers, for that very 10,0001. was to pay the
pensions which this body were entitled to by the terms of
their engagement, and which were analogous to the half
pay of the officers. As to day labourers being discharged,
it would be in vain to urge economy upon a Government
if they were not allowed to pat it into effect in the ways
which appeared most feasible.
Mr. HUME observed that when Sir G. Cockburn was
in office, 2,700 men, whet were employed in the coast
blockade service, came under these estimates, which was
not the case in the present instance, so that, subtracting
that number, the vote now proposed was little short of
tl e 30,000 mentioned by the Right Hon. Baronet. With
reference to Lord Auckland, for whom, as an excellent
public man, he (Mr. H.) had the highest respect, he must
remind the Hon. Baronet that the Noble Lord held some
pensions.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that Lord Auckland had
refused to draw his pension since he came under the ser-
vice of Government.
Mr. HUME was glad to bear it ; and yet hoped the
House would not consider him pertinacious if be pressed
a little more on its attention. Every Gentleman who
bad spoken only furnished additional reason why he should
persevere in his amendment. He was not one who would
ever oppose a reward to the deserving; and, had he been
connected with the Naval Department of the Government
he would not allow the case of such a man as Captain Ross
to be taken up by a stranger.—(Cheers.) He objected only
to a useless and uncalled-for outlay, only resorted to as a
species of patronage, to be availed of by a corrupt Go-
vernment. His had been called a twopenny-halfpenny
economy, but he did not care for these terms. They say
togging hardens ; and he, in this way, had been floeged
into endurance.—(A laugh.) He did not so much object
to the tax, as to the influence which it gave.—(Hear.)
If these estimates were made out like those of the army,
much time would be saved, and gentlemen would be bet.
ter enabled to understand the items. The Marines are'
now 9,000; in 179?, they were but 4,700. Thus they
were doubled. Were the estimates the same as those of
the as my, the numbers could be compared year with year,
and Members would have clearer data to go upon. Why
nr.rease them by 3,300 ? Why add one, but for merit ?
(Hee.r..) He hoped the House would excuse his press-
ing this subject, but it seemed to him the object of such
estimates was to conceal the expenditure, by involving the
items, and cover them all up under a pretended concern
for the good of the navy. He wondered the Hon. Ba-
ronet did not look with jealous suspicion on the Tory
support he received—(Hear, hear.) The strength of the
navy was adduced as an argument ; but would not the
number which he (Mr. Hume) proposed support that
strength? Was the number proposed by the Hon.
Baronet indeed necessary? Why should a steam engine
be employed for a purpose which could be effected by a
lighter. They talked of Turkey, although the King's
speech told them that Turkey was quiet. Would it not
be sufficient to have their naval force more than para-
mount to the whole world ? This was a military ques-
tion, and the proposed measure an increase of the military
force. T' cy would thus have a great many more marines
than they could call into play, and his amendment would
go not to the reduction of the naval, but of the military
force. No lea,on had been assigned for increasing the
force leont wi.at it bad been in the period between 1817
and 1825. He would call upon Ministers to bring down
their estimates to the lowest po'nts. The asp.ct of Eu-
rope was the same es in the period be alluded to. He
would call upon all who would wish to keep down the
number of the army to its proper lever, to support his
emendment. With the army of France and the navy of
England they could cope with all Europe. He certainly
should take the sense of the House on this subject.
Every Member might vote as he pleased. He never
asked any person even to second him, nor should he take
any offence with those who might vote against him.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would trespass but a few mo-
caents to urge the necessity of supporting this branch of
tbe estimates. If a war were to break out, the service
wood suffer very materially from any deficiency in the
marine force. They were the nucleus around which our
naval went;th was formed, and the larger the nucleus the
steel`
could be relied on, and seeing this, he
more that
trusted the House Would not support the amendment.
Mr. SINCLAIR meg glad to find that his Hon. Friend
the Member 'or Middlesex did not consider acquiescence
in all his opinions to be an eimatial ingredient in Parlia-
mentary independence, and did not wiah to act towards
Members the Jack Cade part of being viceroy over their
votes. He (Mr. S.) had never courted Ministerial favour
by supporting them when he thought them wrong; ner
would lee earn a spurious popularity by opposing them
when he deemed them in the right. He should cordially
support the original proposition. The present, as had been
justly observed, was a question not of servile but of reason-
able confidence. It could not be expected that every indi-
vidual Member could be prepared, of his own knowledge,
to determine what was the proper number of sailors or
marines which the public exigencies required ; but he was
disposed on this subject to attach more weight to the sen
timents of his Right Hon. Friend, who bad access to every
source of information, than to the suggestions of his Hon.
Friend behind him. He was happy to vote for keeping
both these valuable corps in their actual state of efficiency.
The present state of Europe rendered it indispensable for
this country to maintain a bold attitude, and to show
that we were equally ready to extend protection or aid to
an ally, and to resist that spirit of aggrandisement which
was manifested in certain quarters at the present mo-
ment.—(Hear.)
Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON deemed it materalily
essential to maintain a laree marine force. The finest
regiments in the empire would be found of little or no use
if suddenly cared into tl.e marine service. Indeed it was
always necessary to maintain a greater number of marines
than may appear to be required. He was not opposed to
economy, but it should be economy in a just degree, and
judiciously exercised. They might reduce as much as they
could, but at the same time justice should be done in the
dock-yard. If reduction were to take place, it should run
fairly through the entire pension list, and extend to the
aavy only, in its just and proportionate degree. Economy
attempted in any other manner would be false and
injudicious.
After a few words from Messrs. T. Attwoed, Hume,
Ruthven, and Gisborne, the Committee divided, when
there appeared—
For the amendment
For the original motion
Majority ' —176
The Committee then agreed to the grants of 958,7611.,
pr wages to seamen and marines for the Ordinary and