The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-15 00:00:00

and suffering and most nieritorious body from the Severe
evils which they had long been enduring.
Mr. E. RUTHVEN said that to his not representing a
Catholic constituency, of fourteen or fifteen hundred Ca-
tholics in the county of Kildare, a thousand voted for him.
As to his not having any property in the county, he had
asked no man to give him a qualification ; he had a house
in the county where any gentleman who chose to honour
him with a visit should be hospitahly received.--(A laugh.)
Sir W. INGLIS @aid a few words in explanation.
Colonel VERNER supported the resolutions, and main-
tained that while law existed the church had as much
right to its tithe as the landlord had to his rents.
Lord ALTHORP—Sir, I admired, in common wills
others, the temper in which the present debate was com-
menced, and I regret that that temper has not been pre-
served. I have been thanked by some Hon. Gentlemen,
and perhaps more than I deserve, for bringing this propo-
sition forward. My real object in doing so was not alto.
gether for the benefit of the church, but because I thought
that there was extreme danger in allowing the present
state of things to continue in Ireland, and because I
thought that it was indispensable that Parliament should
interfere and put a stop to it. I was quite aware that it
was a proposition which was liable to certain objections ;
but I hoped, and I continue to hope, that it will be pro-
ductive of much good ; and therefore that the House nil
overrule those objections, and agree to a proposition that,
in my opinion, is calculated to benefit England as well as
Ireland. It is, as the House must already know, intended
by this measure that the landlords should be entitled to re-
cover from those tenants who themselves have not paid
their tithes, and I am aware that this feature of the
measure is open to some objection, and even to an ob-
jection of some apparent weight ; but, upon reflection,
I am sure the Committer will agree with me, that
the weight is only in appearance. I think the Committee
will also agree with me, that if the land tax thus intended
to be imposed were to he collected in the same manner as
the tithes have heretofore been collected, it could not be
productive of satisfaction, as it must of necessity be looked
upon in the same light as the old burden of tithes ; if
tithes were to be collected, in the same proportions as be-
fore, the present would merely be looked upon as a repeti•
tion of the measure of last session, and not tend in the
e!ightest degree to advance the pacification of the country.
It is very true, and 1 do not shrink from the admission,
that I do propose to lay on a land tax, and however it may
eventually be received by the landlords of Ireland, there is
no shutting our eyes to the truth, that such a measure is
unavoidable; and now, while noticing this feature in our
proceedings on this subject, I may be permitted to ob-
serve, that from the moment this admission was first made,
a change came over the views of Irish gentlemen on the
subject of tithes. I never, noon any political subject,
remember so great a change as that which seemed to have
been wrought in the minds of those gentlemen from the
instant that that announcement was made. The de-
bates, which from that time forward took place upon
the subject, were wholly altered in their tone.—(Hear,
hear.) Antecedently to that part of the measure being
known, the Irish Members breathed nothing but appro-
bation ; but ever since they have become exceedingly inge-
nious in discovering objections.—(Hear.) Before that
discovery, it was agreed by every gentleman, that the
present state of things could not be allowed to continue,
and that such continuance would be in the highest degree
dangerous to the happiness and safety of the country ; and
gentlemen also agreed that the adoption of the present
measure, minus the pa%ing clause, would be the best
thing in the world, would remove all causes of discontent,
and place things on a satisfactory footing; but now that
the measure has been produced, we have had to encounter
every sort of difference of opinion. I have never for a
moment affected to say that we have not been throwing a
burden upon the landlords of Ireland ; but, as I have on
former occasions said, we had only to choose between two
evils, and the alternative, which, from the nature of the
case, became the more eligible, is one of which, after all,
the landlords will have no reason to complain—it was ne-
cessary fur the peace of the country that the burden
should be shifted to their shoulders; and I do trust that,
for the better consolidation and centinuance of tranquil-
lity, they will submit to the burden with a good grace.
I am aware that it has been urged that this measure is only
of a temporary nature, and can have no extensive or per-
manent effect. Now the reply I have to make to that is,
that the proposed measure has been brought forward as a
remedy for a great present grievance; that it will now
I have the t ffect of relieving the occupying tenants from the
pressure of the acre srs accumulated during the past three
years ; and it will also have the effect of relieving the
tenants at will ftotn all their burdens; they will never
have to undergo the grievance again. This, it must be
confes,ed, is a great public benefit, and might have pro-
tected us from the censure of the Hon. Member for Derby-
shire, who accu•ed us of mixing a great deal of Toryism
with all our measures, so much of Toryism that be
could not give us the benefit of his support.' I
rather think, that if those Members of this House who
are in the habit of supporting Tory doctrines were con-
sulted on the subject, they would have very little diffi-
culty in saying that a great number• of your measures
have in them but a very small spice of Toryism—too small
to meet their views, or obtain their support. Of this
I am quite sure, that none of our measures relat'ng to
the Irish church would satisfy the expressed wish of
those who profess Toryism. From the hour we came into
office till the present moment, we have felt it to be our
duty—l say that at all times, and certainly above all
others, at the present time, we have felt it to be our
duty—to bring forward such measures, as, while they
tended gradually to improve the institutions of the coun-
try, did not, by too rapid a change, incur the hazard of
disturbing the tranquillity of the country. The course
which we marked out for ourselves when we met the
present reformed Parliament for the first time, was that
which I have now described, and the question which we bad
to put to ourselves was this—whether we should proceed
with those gradual improvements which every man who
wished well to the country desired to see accomplished, or
whether, by sudden and violent steps, taken at short in-
tervals, we should produce the most calamitous effects?
We chose the former of these alernatives, and upon the
principle thus adopted we are resolved to act, so long as
we receive the confidence of Parliament and of the coun-
try. Si, long, Sir, as we continue to enjoy that confi-
dence, so long are we resolved to continue making the
same improvements in the institutions of the country,
anti in such manner as shall secure us against hazarding
their stability, or putting in jeopardy the peace and good
order of the community. Ido indulge the hope that, up
to the present time, the course we have pursued has given
satisfaction to the House and the country; and of this I
can assure them, that whether it be so or otherwise, they
will not find us inclined to adopt any other course. Our
earnest wishes, and our fixed resolutions lead us to pro-
mote every safe and practical improvement, but we have
no desire to have recourse to rash and dangerous experi-
ments --(Loud cheers.)
Mr. RONAYNE described the measureof Government
as a miserable expedient that would never answer its pur-
pose; it was trimly temporary, and could not he other-
wise than a failure.

In answer to a question from Mr. LAMBERT,
Lord ALTHORP said the landlords would have every
right to recover the land tax from such tenants as owed
their tithes. There certainly had not been any provision
made for the case of tenants running away, but he had
no reason to think that that class would prove very nume-
rous, and, at ad events, there would be no great diffi-
culty in making such an arrangement as would meet any
difficulties of that nature.
Mr. AGLIONBY said, that the House must be prepared
to give compensation to the Irish landlords, ‘‘ hose property
by this mea.ure they proposed to take away ; it was im-
possible that they could otherwise carry their resolution
into effect. Not only were they thus embarrassing them-
.

selves with the necessity of making this compensation, but
they were creatiug a new source of animosity between the
peasant and the landlord. It was impossible to look upon
the measure otherwise than as a mere expedient, and it
was at the same time impossible to look upon it otherwise
than as a direct injustice and confiscation. When the
tenant absconded in debt both to the landlord and to the
parson, could Oleic be anything like justice in affixing
upon the landlord the double loss by compelling him to
make good the debt to the parson? Nothing, therefore,
could be snore evident than that a compensation fund must
be formed somewhere, and sure he was that it would be
the height of injustice to seek it from the resources of the

nation at large, and still greater injustice to make the Ca-
tholic landlord pay that with which Protestant property
alone should be encumbered. In his judgment, the best
source from which to derive the means of compensation
would be the Protestant church property.
Mr. WALKER agreed with the last speaker, that the
measure of his Ithjesty's Government would afford nothing

but temporary relief, and he hesitated not to add that it
would lead to ultimate dissatisfaction. He was a Protest-
ant, but he fearlessly acknowledged that he was ashamed
of the Protestant pastors of Ireland. The whole outcry
about the preservation of tithes was raised on their behalf,
and though a numerous body of laymen had endured ex-
tensive losses by the late occurrences in Ireland, there
would not have been a voice raised on their behalf, were
it not that the interests of the lay impropriators and of
the clerical body were bound up together. There was no
denying the fact that the Irish church was an extor-
tionate church.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Yes, be would re-
peat that it was nut only extortion, bat grievous jujus-