The Sun.
London, England, 1834-03-15 00:00:00

GAME LAWS.

Mr. CRIPPS begged to ask the noble lord whether
it was the inten,ion of his Majesty's government to make
any alteration in the present state of the game laws ?
Lord ALTHORP replied that it was not.
'1 he hotise then went into committee, Mr. BERNAL in
the chair.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had to thank the
house for not haying before called on him to detail the
provisions of the bill to which he was about to call their
attention.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was sorry that
the subject was placed in his hands ; but lie
felt pence ly convinced that the importance of the
subject would be a sufficient apology. In the fir.t plat. ,
he would state to the house why he was the individual
selected to bring before them. It was because he oas
one of the commissioners appointed by his 111+31 to in
quire into the state of the public accounts, over which
commission his right bonourAle friend, the m.-nib t
for Dundee (Sir H. Parnell), resided. Th.t right hon.
gentleman was then a no mher of his Majesty's go.
vernment, hnt as ministers had not now the good
fortune to number him as one of themselves, it was
considered most proper that the subject should he
conducted by a member of the government, and there-
fore he, as one of the commis ioners, waa appointed
to introduce it. In the next place he owed it to the
committee to give some explanation of the circumst inces
attending the introduction of a measure which was con-
templated by the predecessors of the present government,
not in detail, but in principle. In the first place he would
state that the importance of the measure required that it
should receive an anxious and maturedeliberation, and in the
outset he would allude to a circumstance which was ad-
verted to on the face of the report, viz., the difficulty
which attended the commissioners respecting the late
auditor of the Exchequer (Lord Grenville). However,
the subsequent death of that distinguished indivi-
dual, not only removed that difficulty, but ren-
dered it absolutely necessary to make some other
arrangement. He would now state the principle of the
bill under consideration. The main provisions were
founded on the report of the commissioner-. He would
first state the object of the change—next ti e nature
of that ci at ge—and, 3411 y, the means by which it was
to be effected. It appealed to the committee, and it ap-
peared also expedient to the government, to introduce such a
change in the whole frame of the Exchequer as to abolish
all the existing offices, and also to alter the whole
mode of conducting the business of that department.
The bill which lie would introduce would abolish the of
flees of Auditor of the Exchequer, Clerk of the Pelk, and
Tellers of the Exchequer. He had opened to the house
the great changes he was about to make ; it would b •
only necessary for the committee to consider what had here
tofore been the duties of the Exchequer to be convinced of
the importance of the measure under discussion. From the
earliest period, from the Norman conquest, the Exchequer
had been the great conservator of the public revenue. It
had not only the duty of receiving and paying the public
money, but from time immemorial they bad exercised the
duty of controlling the office of Lord High Treasurer.
He was bound to say, though its operations were tardy,
and the machinery cumbrous, yet it had generally Effected
its object. No great frauds had been committed upon the
revenue; on the contrary, many frauds had been suc-
cessfully checked. And on many occasions of great impor-
tance the auditor of the Exchequer had exercised a control
over the Executive, and exei titled a strict attention over the
appropriation of the public money. It might be asked,
since be made so large an admission, why he was about to
introduce so extensive a change? He tr.ought if the house
consid; red that the rnachinely which this hilt would abolish
was so cumbrous, and so inappropriate to the present
day, they would be satisfied that the moment was come
when it was expedient to alter the form and constitution
of the Exchequer, in order that it might be better en-
abled to effect the great object for which it was instituted.
The present ey stem of the Exchequer had its origin in dines
when the securities now in use were unknown ; when
banks', Wink checks, and bank papers bad not come into

•

me. The accounts were kept in a manner known only
to the Exchequer itself, and the whole system was so an-
tiquated that, with every respect for our ancestors, we
must acknowledge that the time was surely come to
remove them. The bill, he would add, contemplmed
the abolition of all those forms which it was needless to
relate and useless to describe, and also to abolish that
which the hon. member for Middlesex had often com-
plained of—viz., the system of fees. Having thus stated
the outline of the system which was to be abolished, it
only remained for him to state which offices would be
created under the new oill ; and first, it was proposed
in lieu of the auditor, to appoint a comptroller of
the Court of Exchequer.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
In cases of sickness, or unavoidable absence of the comp-
troller, an assistant to be appointed, who would be
competent to discharge the functions that devolved on
the other. Great inconvenience arose from the intricacy
of making payments. But the sth clause simplifies the
form of payment. It provides that the sign manual and
Royal oilier should precede the draft for payment, arid no
pa3ment should in future be made to the Exchequer pre-
vious to its lodgment in the Bank. The letter of the
comptroller was necessary before a check could be issued.
B -fore the cos ptroller issued the draft, he would have the
opportunity of examining the Royal order and Treasury
warrant, by which he would be ale to see whether the
sum expended was within the limits of the Appropriation
Act, or the authority granted by Parliament. He was
aware of the difficulty in expelling machinery that appeared
somewhat count) ic.ted; but he had no hesitation in say.
inn, that if the details were followed, that the working of
the bill was certain to he good, and to answer all the ex-
pectations he had formed of it, it would give a control
over the executive, and would be the means of rendering
srtisfactory accounts certain. The treasury, and r the
bill, would know, day by aay, the amount of all m lieye
paid into the Bank of England, and week by week the
money paid out of the general account. The Exchequer
would also know day by day the money paid out and into
the Bank, and Parliament would annually have an
account of the payments made on the general account pur-
suant to r lie vat nous statutes, ana would know the cash b '-
lances ie the bands of the Bank at the end of every year.
He should stye to the house that the letter issued train
the Treasury would specify the head under which the
payment was made, to whatever branch of the r- venue
the payment belonged it would most assuredly
be put, and, a• a matter of course the net
state of the full debtor and creditor ac ousts would be
known every day to the Comptroler of the Exchequer as
we I a- to the Treasury, who would in such a case act as a
check upon each other. He was not aware that there
was any important provision in the bill is hich he had
omitted, but as the house had been so kind as to allow the
discussion upon it to take place in committee, he, ii he had
omitted anything, would give any farther explanation
that was in his power. On the part of the government, he
might state that they were not bound to the bill, as
it at present stood, and if any suggestion was
made from an hon. member in a spirit of frientiline-s, it
would meet with consideration, and if it was thought an
improvement it would be adopted. He would then state
to tie house what the saving would be by the pro.
posed bill. In the office et present there were 69 clerks em -
ployed, the cost of which was 41,9001. ; the effect of
the proposed arrangement would be to reduce the num
ber of clerks to 29, the cost of the eifice, at the same
time, being reduced to 11.0001 , making a saving upon
the whole of 30,0001.--(Hear.) The sum of 11,0001.
would, be believed, ae suflicnnt to defray the charges of
the new offices, namely, the Comptroller 01 the Exchequer
and the Paymaster's office. The whole of the clerks for
the new department would be selected from the clerks
now employed in the Exchequer. It only remained for
him to touch on another point, namely, compensation. 00
that subject he could not do better than refer to what had
been recommended by the commissioners. They laid it
down as a principle, and it had been adopted by his Ma
jesty's Governmetst, that in the reduction of public offices
as much regard as possible should be paid to the claims
of individuals for compensation. That principle had been
acted on in the bill before the committee. The recent
death of the Auditor of the Exchequer would make the
amount for compensation less than was generally supposed.
The noble lord the present holder of the office, as was
stated by his noble friend (Lord Althorp), held it subject
to any arrangement that might be made with respect to it
by Parliament. The differ- nt offices of the Exchequer were
regulated by the act of 1817, in which it was deeared that
the offices of Auditor and Tellers of his Majesty's Exchequer
in England and Ireland respectively, and of Clerks of tire
Pelts in England and Ireland respectively, were offices
with respect to which there should be a more economical
11 arrangement ; and that all the offices were to be held
during good behaviour. Now it appeared clear that under
such an irrrangement they ought to be considered as per
manent offices, and entitled to full retiriog allowances.
There was a distitiction, however, between the Clerks of
the Pills and the Tellers of the Exchequer; namely, that
the duties of the former office were pen-termed by deputy,
and by the act of 1817 the Tellers of the Exchequer were
compelled to execute their duties personally. Linder all
circumstances it was thought right to propose that an in-
come should be given to the present Clerk of the Pelts to
the full amount of the salary now received for his sinecure
office. He (sir J. Graham) would then refer to the
Tellers of the Exch. quer One of these offices was held
by Alr. Percevel, and was conferred upon him in conse-
quence of the public services of hi- father. Another of
the Tellers of the Exchequer was the Marquis of Camden,
to whose public-spirited conduct and libeia ity the country
stood SO touch indebted. His Majesty's government, to
mark the sense they entertained of the conduct of that
nobleman, had thought it right to introduce a clause jut°
the bill to which he wuu d heteaf er advert. Since that
bill had been introduced, indeed a very short time sitter, a
vacancy bad occurred in one of the Tellerships of the
Exchequer. He (Sir James Graham) alluded to the
di ath of Mr. Yorke. In cone quence of that
(and indeed he felt very great pain in doing so),
it would be his duty to leave that gentleman's name out
ef the trill. Mr. Yorke had been one of iris (Sir James
Giatram's) predecessors in the office he then aeid, and he
had the happiness of enjoying the friendship or that gentle-
man, and had derived the greatest benefit from the ad
vice of Mr. Yorke ; and at the same time he (Sir J.
Graham) was happy in being able to state that his
lamented hi nti had expressed his approbation of some of
the altera inns that be (Sir J. Gratis ) had succeeded in
carrying intoaffect.—(Hear, hear-) He would only add,
that he was sure that no man ever lived ri ho was more
anxious to perform his miry to the public, who was more
anxious for the public welfare, or who had inure effectu-
ally served the public than Mr. Yorke --(Hear, hear.)
He need only say that with respect to Mr. Perceval and
Earl Bathurst, the other Tellers. their respective salaries
should be continued to them for life. The compensation
to these officers would be the amount of their salaii-s.
Being vested interests it was but lair that they should re-
tain he einoiuments for the rest of their lives. The case
of Land Camden was a very peculiar one.—(Cheers ) It
was right and just that it should ever be known to
his countrymen that from the purest motives of patriotism
and generosity, though iu possessions of an office to the
emmuments of which lie had as good a right as any gen-
tleman in that house had to his estate, he contributed to
the public exigencies no less a sum than 245,000/.—
(Chem 8.) No act could be more unge.cious, none more tin
giatetul, than an attempt to fetter in any way
the f ee
agency of a spirit ao generous, so munificently
terested.—(Cheers.) For this r, aeon it wits deemed ex-
pedient, nothing less than an act of justice and greiriud •
n the part of the government, to all ,w the nob!, mai qms
sell to retain full power over the disposal of the proceeds
of his office—(Cheers)—to leave it to his own generosi y
to deal with them as lie might think props, and in no
manner to fetter- Iris discretion.—(Cheers.) In this man-
lier they thought it right to mark their sense of his gene-
rous conduct. More than this the house could nut des
and less would not become them. He believed he ban
now gone through all the material parts of the bill, with-
out omitting any important point. He regretted having
been obliged to detain the house so long upon a bill of this
nature. It was one of uninteresting aspect, taken as a
whole, but yet the details were important. The change
proposed was as extensive as the government thought 1110
could propose at present consistently with the exigencies el
the public service. He would not detain the house longer,
but propose the first clause, namely, that the salary of the
Comptroller-General be 2,0001. a year; that of the De-
puty-Comptroller 1,000/. ; and that the salary of the
chief and of the other clerks should be such as the Com-
missioners of the Tre entry should determine.
The question being put from the chair,
Lord G. SOAIERSET Was glad government had at
length determined to bring this most useful reform under
the consideration of the house. He did nut think his right
hon. friend (SirJ. Graham) did Lord Grenville justice in
supposing, as he seemed to da, that he wished to throw
any obstacles in the way of these improvements. In all
the communications of the commissioners with that noble
lord, he showed himself ready to give all the information
in his power, and to communicate freely with them. N"-
thing could have been effectual but a sweeping abolition,
such as this bill contemplated; and he was himself, and
those with whom he acted, prepared for an ab lition of
offices equally extensive as that now proposed. An effi
crent circa, however, must still be retained, and it ap-
peared to him that his right hen, friend did not dwell

sufficiently upon this important point. The sort of check
proposed in this bill was not, in his view of it, at all so
valuable as that for which it was proposed to substitute
it. The check of the Comptroller and of the Clerk of
the Pell, was most useful, and, as now exercised, consti-
tuted a very important safeguard. They were told that the
Comptroller-General would by this means be completely
freed from all bias. However honourable and however
independent of influence be might be, be could nut help
thinking that the existence of some secondary check over
him would be extremely desirable. It would not otherwise
be a very easy matter to control him if, upon any occasion
and under any peculiar circumstances, his feelings and
convictions happened to he at variance with those of the
executive government. This was not an imaginary case.
Such a one had occurred, one in which the Clerk of the
Pella did exercise a control over the executive. The
case was mentioned by Mr. Robert in his evidence before
the commissioners in 1830. Mr. Robert then stated
that when his father, being deputy, was upon one occa-
sion directed to issue a sum of money from the Exchequer,
considering the order to be illegal, be laid down his key
upon the desk and refused to comply, saying he would
sooner resign than do what he thought illegal. Lord Gren-
ville upon more than one occasion was at variance with
the executive. The last occasion on which this occurred
was in the matter of the Russian loan. Lord Grenville at
the same time communicated to the government most
us ful information, and it was satisfactory to find a public
officer in his situation so independent and honourable in
the discharge of an important duty as to tell the executive
that such an appropriation of the public money could not
be justified. The comptroller to be appointed under this
bill could not be supposed to have all that weight and im-
portance which was attached to the officers who performed
the duties of the place hitherto, surrounded as they were
with a large establishment of subordinate officers and
clerks, and with all the imposing paraphernalia of office.
When the situation was to be ci. prived of all that authority
and respect which it derived from its antiquity, from the
rank and station of those who fi'led it, he could not help
thinking that it would be desirable to have a second
officer, with a controlling authority. He was, however,
glad to hear from his right hon. friend that the per.
son to he pl iced at the head of the office was to be
in reality an efficient one, and that the office was, not at
all to partake of the natu-e of a sinecure Of this deter-
mination he highly approved, hut di.l not at all approve of
the sort of power with which it was proposed to vest the
.leptuy-comptroller in certain cues. If there was a comp-
troller, a deputy-comptroller, and a chief clerk, the great
probability was that this chief clerk would do all the busi-
ness. This was no theory of his own. The provisions
of the bill itself naturally led to such a result. The hill
provided that the comptroller was to exercise a general
superintendence and check over the business of the office ;
hut, in the event of his absence from illness, or any other
cause, the deputy-comptroller was authorised to exercise
the check, and to discharge those duties which belonged
to the comptroller-general. His object in these observa-
tions was to show that there was no occasion at all for a
deputy-comptroller. It would, in his opinion, be much
•
betterpendentot
ht oecoffieaffixt,),:pecerou:i t
with n
ap
salaryac e o f tf. hel deputyo o .
a anotheryear.
Thee
comptroller-general solely would not be a sufficient check
e
:ivien.depHenedwenitshoeffid,cetrhse,reffoorre,
ththeerpeusthpoould,
thereby of giving gretter efficiency to the check. This
opinion he and his friends who sat round him formed
some years back, and, as it appeared to him a pre-
ferable one to that now proposed, he considered
it his duty upon such occasions as this to throw out
the suggestion to his right honourable friend. The
Gerk of the Pell., if the office should be still re-
tained as an efficient check, might perform the same duties
that hitherto belonged to it, with the same salary, 1,0001..
as that proposed for the deputy-comptroller. The salary at
present was too large, and a continuance of it could not be
ex,iected under any new modification of the office. Anoth r
point not sufficiently provided for in the bill wits the ex-
clusqm of the comptroller from a seat in that house.--

(Sir J. Graham sahi there was a provision to that effect.)
Another point, perhaps more important still, was not
provided for, so far as he could see : he meant a clause to
prevent this officer from holding any other place under
the Crown. He was glad to see that the old form of
Exzhequer tickets (as we understood) was to be abo-
lished, but it might be important to preserve some ac
quain lance with these curious numerals. He approved of
committing the bill merely pro forma, for that would
afford an opportunity of introducing any alterations that
might be deemed advisable. The payments to be made,
he did not think, required a separate paymaster. He
understood this office was to be accompanied with a large
e•tablishment of clef ks ; but perhaps he was mistaken.
The proposed change in this respect was a matter of some
importance. The present mode of pa3ment had worked
well for many years, and there was no instance of de-
falcatmn. He did not intend to offer any motion on the
subject.
Sir J. GRAHAM thanked his noble friend for the
candour of his observations on the bill. He should cer-
tainly attend to his suggestions in the progress of it.
Care would be taken to introduce a provision to prevent
the Comptroller from holding any other place under the
crown. It was already provided that he should have
no seat in that house. As to the Paymaster's office,
it was proposed that it should form a branch of
the Treasury. When it was considered that the va-
rious payments to be made amounted to between three
and four millions a year, the house must see the
n cessity of some establishment. When it was com-
plete the matter would be submitted to the house. The
whole charges under the plan proposed Joy the bill, in
plire of 41,0001., would be only 11,0001., and the half
of this sum would be the charge of the paymaster's office.
The house would have an opportunity of knowing every
thing relating to this establishment, for the details would
be brought before them every year. The next point to
which his noble friend alluded to, was the double check.
The question here was, whether a single check was not
more efficient than a double one. The clerk of the pells
had stated his opinion to be adverse to the system of double
clock, and in this he concurred with him, inasmuch as it
divided respinsibility.
After a few words from Mr. HEaarEs and Lord
ALTHORP,

S r H. PARNELL thought that the house and the
public ought to he very much obliged to Ministers for
bringing forward this measure, for he held that would
effect he most important telorms, not only in the Exche-
quer, but in all the other departments. He for one dis-
approved of the double checks, the origin of which bad
liven in t,henetc
a,ts
extremely.,un defective manner of keeping the
Gi,ve

Mr. HUME highly approved of the bill. He was glad
to h ar that the offices eatahlished by the Act of Queen
Anne were to be abolished. lie wished to know wh,ther
the Clerks of the Pelts %sere to receive the 2,7001., or whe-
ther this sum w.re to include the payments to their depu-
ties. He wished, likewise, to know if the auditor was to
beallciworen the puhlit..
allowed holliany other places, or to receive any other
sum i
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the act empowered the
Treasury Board to make separate compensation to the
officers under the Tellers, and that the Tellers themselves
were to receive 2,7001. a year. He was able to state that
Lord Auckland did not intend to receive any pensions or
ally emolument whatever for any pl ices held by him
durmg pleasure ; but with respect to tha appointinet!tto
Giee..wich Hospit .1 lie was not able to give a positive
answer, and be c..uld only say that he should regret if that
es.ablislinient were to be deprived of his lordship's
valuable services.

Mr. HUME strongly objected to pluralities of all sorts.

Mr. 111. AfTWOOD, as a measure of economy, ap-
proved of the present bill, but he hoped that some altera-
tion would be made in tie clause which related to the
a(appttihienttnEexn.,thei:gifutehre
.il
ediComptroller and
pprov e Assistant
do fpuc Comptrolleroffice r
being appointed to their situations for life, and thought
that no one should hold a public situation except (luring
I,leasure.acihoen.sablaarrioers,eatt
bpar,eise
juotrgpoatitdensvas
ti
4
e to th;em whatm the rightamount
o
: iaving
was which the proposed
abolition of offices would effect in this branch of the public
expenditure. The hon. gentleman alluded to the office of
sto,t9eo bT:te
Cleik of the Pelts, which the measure proposed to abolish,
and said that he saw no reason why the principle to which
he had adverted should not be applied to the salary of the
right hon. gentleman who hell that office as well as to
the salaries of other persons. Indeed he thought that, in-
stead of allowing the right hon. gentleman a retiring
beinge
aihrb: d 1,4001.,
of
staot
vh
fieAssistantt
thathe
and
that
nouiffitbeChtecF,hv piros
would
ohpd
right
hrs
have
vnme. of
pension of 1,4001. a year, it would be much better to retain
ll
his services by making him Assistant Comptroler of the
agt
nct
e,xckal Exchequer.ineoqfwn :eh
eewhpeaaespl
appointed
00l
s
the benefit of a reduction to that extent.
Sir J. GRAHAM begged to inform the hon. gentle-
man that this was not so much a measure of economy as
it was a measure for the better regulation of the public
accounts, and to insure a greater degree of punctuality
on the part of those through whose hands the public
money necessarily passed, by affording free access to
the public accounts, and showing examy how the
public balance stood. 130, above all, it was a (ilea.
sure that would enable the government to exercise a
more *table control over the public expenditure than

sat m makingp to 1 I l‘ri
ofthe Exchequer,
could :do under the existing system.--( Hear, hear.)
Now,
n Ellisa fort
a -Cs ()
a person t
ewwith respect to the proposition of the hon. gentle-
man Ellis,tn
the
ee Cu llberi
ck serviceofhe
the P
shoulda
very few words. The hon. gentleman represented Mr.
;be uii :' sayhA.
how
n
stood the fact ? Why, that, so far from being new to
public service, the right hon. gentleman bad served the
. public, he might say all parts of the world, with zeal
and efficiency for upwards of twenty-two years.—(Hear.)
But be would enumerate some of the right hon. gentle-
man's services, and then leave it to the house to determine
whether the statement of the hon. gentleman the member
for Whitehaven was correct or not. In 1812 Mr. Ellis
entered the public service as Secretary to Lord Bucking.
ham. He was afterwards sent to Persia, and there in
1814 signed a treaty of great importance to the country
to the entire satisfaction of the then government. In
1815 be was appointed secretary to a commission for ar-
ranging a commercial treaty between this country and the
United States of America. His services on this occasion
were admitted on all hands to have been most efficient.
Subsequently he acted as secretary to Lord Amherst, and
in 1815 he was again sent to the United States of Ame-
rica in an official capacity. In 1819 he went out as
secretary to the Governor of the Cape of Good
Hope, and on his return in 1822 be was ap-
pointed Secretary to the Commissioners of Re
venue Inquiry. He was afterwards made a Com-
missioner of Customs, and in 1825 Lord Liver-
p )01 voluntarily, and without solicitation, conferred upon
him the situation of Clerk of the Pells, which was then'
vacant. He (Sit J. Graham) submitted that he had now
furnished sufficient proof to show that the right hon. gen-
tleman was not new to the public service.--(Hear.) The
committee must know that the salary which be enjoyed
as a commissioner of customs was equal in amount to the
salary he received as clerk of the pells, and that the reason
he exchanged the one situation for ihe other was that the
latter was an independent office, and that he held the
other during pleasure only. Now be would put it to the
liberality and good feeling of the house whether it would
be fair to call upon a ma.r who had served the public for 22
years, and filed an independent office, like that of clerk of
the pells, to accept a sub irdinate office, such as the as-
si-tant-comptroller of the Exchequer undoubtedly was.—
(Hear, hear.) He was willing to admit that where public
economy was concerned private feeling should be laid
aside; but, without calling on the right hon. gentleman
to fill this office, the government had ample choice of
ocher public servants who were Just as competent to per-
form the dudes as he was. The right hon. baronet said
that the government had the choice or four persons,
namely, the first clerk of the auditor, the first clerk of the
pelts, and the twit tellers of the Exchequer, any one of
whom could pet forin the duties of assistant-comptroller of
the Exchequer effic ently. The office of teller of the Es-
c equer was a sinecure, as the duties could be performed
by deputy ; but that was not the case with respect to the
clerk of the pells, as the act of 1817 required that the
duties attached to that office should be discharged in per-
son. He felt satisfied that the generous feeling and libe-
rality of hon. gentlemen would protect the government
from all necessity of acting harshly towards an old public
servant, or doing violence to the sensitive feelings of an
upright and honourahle man.—(Hear.)
Sir G. STAUNTON knew the right hon. gentleman
(Mr. Ellis) to whom allusion bad been so often made inti-
mately. His services had been of the utmost value to the
public, and it would be most unjust to deprive him of the
reward which those services so well merited.

Mr. M. ATTWOOD observed that if the right hon.
gentleman's services requited so large a reward they ought
surely to address his Majesty to place him on the pension
list.—(Disvprobition.)
Mr. H. L. BULWER would never consent that a
gentleman who served the public faithfully should be de-
graded from his official rank, by being compelled to accept
a subordinate situation, after having filled an independent
onie.—(Hear.)

Mr. C. GRANT was also personally acquainted with
Mr. Ellis, and could bear the most ample testimony to
the value of that right hon. gentleman's public services.
His right hon. friend bad for the last three years acted as
one of the unpaid commissioners of the Board of Control,
and his knowledge of Indian affairs was of the utmost ad-
vantage to the government on the renewal of the East
India Company's charter, in 1812 and 1813.
Air. GOULBURN agreed that it would be most unfair
to require a gentleman who had with such credit to him-
self filled a superior office to accept an inferior situation.—
(Hear, hear.) Knowing, however, the great value of
Mi. Ellis's public services, and how deserving he was of
confidence, he (Mr. Goulburti) could not but regret that
when such an appointment as that of Comptroller of the
Exchequer was about to be made he had not been the
individual selected to fill it.—(Hear.) By such a choice
leatisfaction would be given to all parties, and the public
would be relieved to the amount of his retired allowance—
that was, 1,400/. The right hon. gentleman said that he
ould have proposed two checks rather than one, and be
thought that appointing two respectake officers to perform
that duty at a salary of 1,5004, aye .r each would be more
advantageous to the public service than the arrangement
proposed to be made. He had frequently complained of
the great complexity of the machinery in this department,
and should be glad to see it removed without running any
risk of endangering the public security. Ile certainly did
not approve of placing such a responsibility in the hands
of any one clerk, but he would at the same time say that
such a confi tepee could be reposed in no one with more
safety than in his right hon. friend, Mr. Ellis.—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHuRP, with respect to the question of double
cheeks, entirely concurred in the view which his right hon.
friend (Sir James Graham) had taken. He was satisfied
that a single check would be quite sufficient; and if there
was no other objection to a double check than that of being
obliged to keep up two establishments, it would,
he submitted, be conclusive against such a system. If he
considered thet two were necessary he certainly should
not propose only one ; but it was his opinion that the
duty would be performed as securely and efficiently by
one as by twit ; and therefore he concurred in the view
which his right hon. friend had taken. With regard to
the proposition for appointing Mr. Ellis to the office of
Comptroller of the Exchequer he would say a vet y few
words. That undoubtedly was an office of very great
importance, and it was the duty of the government to take
came that it Was properly and adequately filled. He must
say he was exceedingly happy to hear that it was agreed
on all hands that Mr. Ellis deserved the reward he re-
ceived ; but the question was, were the Government to
appoint to this office, or was that appointment to be made
by the House of Commons ? In his opinion the House of
Common- bad nothing whatever to do with the appoint-
ment. The choice of the individual who was to fill it
!whinged net to them, but to the Executive Government.
Mr. GOULBURN admitted the fact to be so.

Colonel EVANS could ❑ot see upon what grounds the
right lion. baronet (Sir J. Graham) could appeal as he
hid done to the generosity of that house in behalf of Mr.
Ellis, rejecting as he did the proposition which had been
made, and telling them that the s me compensation was to
be given to the tellers of the Exchequer, who had per-
forme.. no public services, as to Mi. Ellis who had.
Mr. ATTWOOD had no further intention to depreciate
the claims of Mr. Ellis than to say he did not appear to
h►m to stand in the light of one of those public servants
who were e doled to such a reward.

S,r R. DONKIN spoke highly from his own experience
of Mr. Eilis's services at the Cape ; (hey bad been in. st
valuable. With regard to the proposition for piecing Mr.
Ellis upon the pension list, he thought it one which that
gentlemen would spurn as it deserved.
The clause was then put and agreed to.
Upon the clause authorising the p 'ywent of 8,300/. as
compensation to the clerk of the pels,
Mr. HUME thought, before agreeing to the clause, the
house ought to have an assurance from the Government
dist these deck's would, at thi, very earliest opportunity,
be appointed to other offices, and these allowances be
stopped.

Lord ALTHORP had no hesitation in assuring the
house it was zhe wish of the Government to give to Mr.
Ellis such employment as his eminent meths entitled him
to at the earlie,t opportunity, as well as to all the other
parties.

Mr. TENNYSON said the Government might be ready
to offer empliiyinent to Mr. Ellis, but it would be open to
him to refuse it unless the house tonk some step to guard
against that result. Undoubtedly the Crown had a right
to choose its own servants, but it was incumbent on the
house to consider whether it would vote this pension until
it knew that it would oniy be paid as long as necessary,
and no longer. _ _

Lord ALTHORP, from what he knew of Mr. Ellis,
was pertec ly satisfied it would be his anxious wish to
accept the first office in which his services would entitle
him to the remuneration he was receiving.
Mr. TENNYSON said it appeared to him that, instead
of p Lying to Lord Auckland 2,5001. as Comptroller of the
Exchequer, for which offic, Mr. Ellis was so fit, it would
have heen much better to have appointed him to it. He
should like to bear whether any or what part of Lord
Auckland s income was g.ven up in consequence of holding
this office.
Sir J. GRAHAM had already stated as distinctly as he
could, that Lord Auckland, while he 101 d the office of
Comptroller of the Exchequer, woull receive no part of
his pensiou. He must say, it appeared to him to be the

o iden alt
jpnasrialymobuyntmdru.tynolifs,thaendbotunsep,laacterdhiimts tiirnstanduityr
t
.ndepencaoro.
situation. If it were held that he had no right to
e' le
pentration, then he could understand the right bond. „ favourn
man proposing to make it a matter of grace a" was
that Mr. Ellis should have it until this or that officenlaini
vacant for him. But be contended that Mr.
ditSurire,jw.
upon the ground of his past services was clearly
ili:
one. Id know
Mr. HUME thought it necessary the house sboul
for what services this large sum of 8,3001. was to be Pi'
in compensation.
house
er
aEnd.
thel(-N GATweerHntUenLtLtocaallge i and
The clause was then agreed to, the house resutneur
the report was ordered to he received on Monday.
IMPRISONMENT OF SOLDIERS.
hGn:RhAIiA wouldill
bhea had
laidp r prepared rteldi
a table. estimates o f the Open .
which had arisen, the practice of using county gaols fo
the imprisonment of soldiers. When be stated that in the
gaol of the county with which he had the honour to be
year, he thought it must be evident that great as
had been created. But beyond that it was scarcely
conanierc.tEedLicoEr 7soaidsotlhdeiersbadbeen confined withliteitinttcr.
necessary for him to suggest the manifest impropriety of
sending soldiers to mix with the tenants of the county
rdeatthpeubal
gaol who were afterwards to return to the ranks,—(Hears
attention of
veonfieraticeer
hear.) He hoped the subject bad occupied the considera-
tion of Ministers.
the importance of this subject, and it had been very la
uhniddeir their consideration. The number of courtsmartisl
had been very much increased, and in proportion there
an increase in the number of soldiers committed
to the ea
__,
Was county gaols and to the prisons of the metropolis'
thoseH places
entry to say, after undergoing their punishment In
in they had many of them returned to the army
no very improved state. In these circumstances, be
feared the Government had no choice left but to provide
separate places of confinement for the soldiers, and that
must be done. Government were fully awarete ;If
____

MUTINY BILL.—MILITARY FLOGGING.
Mr. BERNAL brought up the report of the MutinY
Bill. Upon the clause giving the power of corporeal
punishment,
Major FANCOURT rose to move the abolition of the
practice altogether. The gallant inemher then read the
Horse Guards circular, dated August 14, 1833, and CO'
tended that it left the practice and the question much in
the same state that it was in before. The terms " di'''
graceful conduct" and "insubordination," for which the '
tpaukneisiimaelmn,oswtasevsetirlyl tooffbneui.n_flic(tTethl,ewgearellasntt, general.fficer abse.retor
~
n
read from the regulations the list of offences placed und,e4
these heads, which are very numerous.) He then called
Some
upon e the
gentlemenh ous et o
regardedexa inin ei
twahsatthewoanslythme
ewano.r.king and 't'
what consisted the advantages of the present system,
• f deterring •'
soldiers from the commission of extreme offences. -1" t
these were the very offences to which flogging was I"
applied ; but, on the contrary, it was brought into opera!'
tion precisely in those cases of less aggravated offence i,:if
which it was least called for. He called the attention:-
the house to the fact that in the Life Guards the rani
hardly ever existed, and the reason of this was, that
once a man was flogged he was expelled from the refit
went. This was a proof that where the practice fie
held in just detestation, its use became unnecessary..
hat
a
knew he should be told that in this corps sve,ntabst
superior class of men—(Hear, hear, hear)--nna
_,h,
therefore they had no occasion to resort to the pr
in"eo
ment. But ne contended that the character n
ohwfaadsp
ae improveddiamb eeennt, d
ebt
therefor
re
art
deh
fee.
odrfeelingeb,y t o. a b thato iits
iwi niatosn e:l3tooe fg
esttobobi
eefelm.r.:::
aea:idio.oda:_tty;
find some efficient substitute as a means of mantel:col;
discipline.—(Hear, hear.) For his own part b%ement,
vinced that this might be found in solitary c nu
manadtitehnatthpaunnitshhem,:tnowwouilnd
uhsee.moTrehiesitasientthefolesriictiano:f
cOhnnetne
his own experience. He knew that solitary
ad ben re,
was held in the greatest dread by men Alin b. aim 0)0
peatedly flogged, e ids no other effect than to m .
tice bad
more hardened. But it was said that the practice 00
already been much decreased. This,
hi his
an additional proof that it might safely be abolisnoseed
10 so
0piti0.....0,
sad
.ra
if so, why should the soldier continue to be "Pble t° i"
hT debasing
thate,wi.
ea ,w satisfied aa ns
soldiers o
arwdl
roeetua'
I,
wouldadi
in
that hi
commit
te
t ehffie which
acrimesiremn rendered
fuar
thclass
ela i m 0
c...
oe av
ad
ea
ps yr , ..:
authorisepunishments
e withholdingwh i ch,
thei ti
soldiers'o n
acyjonnltiefita,“:sva :oveui
itodlif
‘:
its discipline. In additi,n to these, however, be artairs
cases, and, where found incorrigible, their "'
belieVed
ignominy. Some objected to tbis because they 0
_bah;
L 0 also also .
their discharge —(Hear, heir-)
thought it necessary on active service, but h'" d
ear and
the French practice of marching men to the
before! tt
confining them ' until re brought ,lees
at night they were iit and
caurtmartial much more efficient as a punishoont
on
injuriuus to the force oh the army--(The galle on she
then quoted the opinions of Lieutenant SpiPP .F., book
question, and read some long extracts fronlit.";tat 00t
strongly condemning the practice of flogglng•
) cerned---tbe,
merely the interests of the army that were eon •
endence ot
character, the honour, and perhaps the inderPot to the
Great Britain, which bad sometimes to Is
_,,e. Th
bravery of her voluntary defenders, were ut ma; fogging
lion member then moved, as an amendment, t°
sinomoerderoffi.
cee_:ought ,
be
tchoellewaghtiel.e
thFinloggsgt
be henceforth abolished in the British army._ „ans of t
Flogging
gldwabe
Mr. CHICHESTER was sure that the 7'4 pailant
country, would respond to the sentitneatsolitsbue'd,* gras,
not the partial abolition, then,
and what was therefore the necessity for en
ntry'
practice ?—(Hear, hear.) Living in the coffer be (Mc'
being familiar with the sentiments of the Peleedaeati.°P
Chichester) would say, that from the spreadset; to the 1;3;
yo ut:bo 1
ifsohr
esdh:oi rot
uoi ngi
peggtht leitrii
among the people, they were strongly oPP° All knew
diction of corporeal punishment on eoldiers. ;Jr. Gbiebeof
vices of the system, and deprecated it. Ild (,‘„sequence,_.,s,
ter) would fairly state to the house that, in c.o.' more ntie
the diffusion of education among the Pe°Picei-ostiee Wer,i
manised feelings and more correct notions 0,100 e and aelyreenatdauyagiri party
propagated among them, and that theynweinreenta 00 osn's
opposed to the infliction of barbarous pu
"an naorallY ans°.,' '
tary men—punishtnents that 500 k the
tire harm.—(Hear, hear.) if
h"'
rsue,
doubt about the course they
sb"id
pugeneral feelings
.41
physically, and did the service not only
innmoong:::.l. but 'e 10
suit the debates of that house and the E .
,of emr..er , , owl
the county. Toe opinions 01 ued in ente
Or'
should beef ollowed in any plan to be purs . s „,.... L. ,
a system of punishment for delinquell s°ldier i
01d11:01,1rt
Colchester) had a respect fur the jtrlgnient n that 'n.4l;
in point of military tactics ; but be would Yidsa 00, thlo,
as punishment for offences was concerned, be ni .ophoe 2: :
their opinions should be judged absolutes ""', pe...,,-
tem of picketting, where the man was obliged
the loony might be upheld notwithstanding anike°oo,ll'
opinion old military officers might have held Ott", the of:
What justitica,ion could there be, for instance, is-
stand Da
What 0 t
the point of a sharp instrument struck in 'begone ill
of suspending the whole weight of the hum° col" "ci
the arms tied by a rope fastened in a pullY ?: stified by as
barbarities lie upheld? Could they be ln 9 )
one. It notoriously grew out d t (cheer . .
arguments advanced within that house he chair, 0
On the previous question being put from t_
not fair/Y.4i
Mr. R. GRANT lose. The question vvrtio"n a getteti
sletitthivemits c;o'i
t
be considered an open one, or the
the
elutiny 8ii1.._30
motion was made by the hon.
(Mr. Hume), that the punishment of n '
do"tn". plant the Lb.
altogether abolished in the United King doctrines of
members who profes•ed to accede to the
es.
...d die p 0
hon, member would net go BO far as to '!". or an hot
sions of the proposition to the departments
ofn anittionc
ail,
our colonies, while others might have been corded °there
the same license of exemption should be :,.ie that_ the
Many said that it was h ghly objection.
augiaater furirrej
should be one system for the colonies ann_aother °onto(
parent kingdom.—(Here the right hon. hi: boo. ina 01,,
eircum-tannally to a former motion of irioritY n.atoio%
for Westminster on the subject, to there elit in
Guamc
occasion, and to the conduct of the gove7oo,se
so
an official circular to be issued from he of thae 00014
respecting mile:ary floggine, in consequ . -ocda
w tv tioo ill
of the house on that occasion. The ease: joterrtil)oo,,)
not catch, in consequence of a coati:0;00 oe.ctsn:f ttat
our part of the gallery, an event of cornreatiseatio.
8,914 00
inern„,boer
:foogr libi(c)lido.labe
000 e.
A plan was then proposed for tberaot) soul° wfore
abuse com;.lained of, and he (Mr. G
should nan'e(fle,"
his own responsibility, that the hotoe friember.'w V. 71
it rushed into the proposition of the bon' „use eh° o'l (
ne tr.) The great
thenquestin was, and tl ec"cr.otensingwai o
it in mind, whether experiment of ,;co, by j welt .
the infliction of flogging for onty three oirt,
was vie", tsid:
eventually abolishing flagging altegethe ere fair 1p Wl°
and sufficiently ; and if the experiment wooed, the
~„eor
and it was likely to answer the end Pr°Pf' the b°°;0;013I
would the house think of the proposition °I
atosg
oder,
tier ?—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Grant ha` _0 ibe..egiq
tor objecting to the motion. Fast, `brae7 _of 010
• bohtion
so
standing come to last )ear, that the A
tout an I ;log ,
should not be precipitately adopted, w' a esilerl allt
merit of a remedial substitute, or at 'easy; . loon
introduce the thing by cautious gradat'''''

tninreduelar ay.as issued
r the sanction froth the counnanderein.cbief, and
festati of government, acting on the mato-
" uf opinion in the house, that flogging should b
resorted to onl
offences Y on particular occasions, and for particular
tried , *„. That experiment was tried, but then it waa not
"" 'oily
theproposition
and therefore of the bon. member was un-
eilrlede
tfhoer. 1%4 drunaenness on guard, and thieving
only offences made punishable with flogging.
0E8" °lrene" Were, however, construable into many other
nageneee; for instiince, disobedience to the commanding
might be interpreted into mutiny. No doubt a
edrheat latitude teas allowed to officers. All offences of a
t° graceful kind on the part of the soldiers were entitled
call the punishment. He (Mr. Grant) would just
'Sr.an the attention of the house to the terms of the circus
te4,l expressly stated that punishment should not be
that .e° more frequent in cases deserving punishment,
it I teas rendered before • but, on the contrary, that
Thep_
edamirable to render it' more
hroadrsee.— (Hear., hear.)
r t question, then, fur the . to consider was,
sWhether the experiment was fairly tried. He (Mr.Granot)
et-•••telnled that it was not. Well, but the present prop ebtericie
went further than the former one. It was propose,
4"'re abolish flogging only in the United Kingdom.
fie w the proposition went further. There was no
British
arquainteds not to say with the nature of the
to
bet even with the common habitudes of men, and
otoie relations of our colonial intercourse, who would not at
theeehln4intain that it would be most pernicious to extend
41,;,.`"PUnity from certain offences to our colonies: It wast
iatZ,Mocre difficult to carry the mitigation of punishdmetnhe,
tt,',„:"llg that the real interests of the country ao
ietZnot7of the military service were to be considered,
troea.-"t in the colonies than at home. At home the
iieleiteere under the immediate eye of Government, and_
Whji4i,"break could be more easily and speedily coerced,
lily ; 114. Y Wanton severity could be more easily and spee-
t f Re (Mr. Grant) had got returns frodie m
is:4ol(ingdom but he got few from foreign parts,
the
aerial working of the proposed scheme. for
ttier,"°4 of punishment.g So far as the experiment was Was
tiLtWorked well. The house then might ask. whate
* 41,1'7 result of that experienent ? That question h
goin° meet. The experiment, be it recollected,was
atis' only during the last year. He (Mr. Grant)he
rege,,.• "eg then to read to the house a catalogue of tt
In* Punishments inflicted uuder senteeces of cour s
nitith,t-m the United Kingoom,to show that military pu-
ss
18,1--'nt w decreasing. In 1830 there were 655 ; in
41:01,,I 646; in 1832, 485 ; in 1833, 370—thus
hefaTlis that military punishment had, for about a
(tC.!° of threeyears, diminished nearly one half.—
trie`, hears hear.) Under that list, he included die-
QC' garrison, ad general courtsmartial. He would
hop ,bekg to give another statement of the proper.
Otelle ;I'o corporeal punishments bore to other punish-
-18231- f°r the last twelve years. During 1821, 1822,
Vats
°' ',end 1824, taken in the aggregate, the proportion
.
atkicorporeal to other punishments as one to two
-I* 0:6 1825, 1826, 1827, and 1828, the proportion was
it Was to three; during 1829, 1880, 1831, anti 1832,
Mote "e fo six ; during the first part of the last year,
110,11° the circular was issued, it was one to nine; ann
*44 the latter part of the last year, after the circular
Peti k; the
it was one to fourteen.-:-.(Cheers.) The ex.-
sednent, then he would say, was not fairly tried ;
t‘ed *all so 'far as it went. Why not wait and try it
._t
Ptither, ?
lieLh ---(Elear, hear.) But be should make another.
tleetnent to the house which would give him
tios:fght he asked did ohne diminish with tho.doninu.
Punishment? He was bound to say it did not.—
ttireeZ k
t "'ears) Erroneous inferences would, he feared b
saefeaseo:n both aides from that admission. Crime did
'`"(1/54 in Proportion t., the diminution of punishment.
.not r'
r. hear, hear.) But crime and punishment were
otie tntual criteria by which to form an inference from
mitten] ri the other. Formerly many offences. were sub -
pehieli to the cognizance of the officers, and privately
ed Without any public registration of them.. But
CottY ''ffenees were in most cases brought before a
'Ma re f
systemsystem-lais and of course publicly attested. The
Vale oeourtsmartial was no doubt good ; but it
Priem" desirable that the officers should be de.
*ice of a fair discretion in visiting certain offences
vette certain immediate punishment, without the
ce inter-
°" °f a regular military jury. It was dangerous to
*roilieitrtain rules for the regulation of the jurisdiction of
*lent rY•n'ens It was a bad remedy to enclose govern
tVithin •
go na. a circle and say, " Out of that you shalt nor
Itould Lc beers.) The house should recollect, and he
oral. -"Press the fact upon it, that alter all the reports
no emnaiiitees, after all the inquiries made, there was
pertoper and effective substitute found fir secondary
bad epZennt**--(Hear.) The hon. and gallant member
wee, of mulcting the soldiers of tbeir at
as a pu
ent, but th we
had been carried otaito---8 a system which he apprehended
We. (It was as large an extent as was practica•
o as m this effect hat we understood the right
n. gentleman to g 5
Peak, Peak, but we beard him extremely
Then transportation had been adverted to
a substitute for flogoin Portation had been foundb ga. "n
civil punishment trans-
mAosstaunmanagedbi
tainasiitary punishment it was still more
objectionable.eone, b
perst
Cl" eases, 'however, it might have great power. A
aha_".ll residing with his family and his friends must tie,
hlle l. lost to every domestic and patriotic feeling. if
e did
th not feel a pang at the thought of suffering
ehlZPitcalation. But the case was far different with the
in the anny.—(Heir, hear.) He was already
teParated trom his home and his friends, if he had any, and
%%night be serving in an unhealthy climate, and regar
I,,7%Portation as a desirable change, being merely that
pe"." one system of coercion to another. And upon ex-
a:4*e traa •
sportation had been found to produce so bad
Si in the army, that he sincerely wished it coned be
altogether rooted out of the list of military punishments.
hat
of that opinion he would state to the house
boaknowledge
within the last few Weeks two cases had come under
wh.
-"Mwhich soldiers had wantonly and cruelly assaulted their
ina d•
t_raespenr,e'tnigon°.ffieers for the purpose of being sentenc?d to
illi:Yrfurther titterer-le'
therefore, was decidedly opposed to
pt to substitute the punishment of trans-
hertorti°ll for that of flogging. But the great substitute
e?" been dwelt upon by the hon. and gallant mem-
Prial: "Wed the proposition before the house was lin.
the toe-t"' Prom what had fallen from the hon. baronet
naittal 117,,,f, Kent, it was pretty evident that the coin-
was felt h4"",lerts to the prisons provided for civil offenders
"'Nee, magistrates greatly to increase their diffi.
'only On the other hand, it was well known that thePeittliiivirewaed the punishment, as at present inflicted, with
that "waste. The autlio•ities invariably contended
Worse B°l"ter was sent to prison who did not return
da
*tta untnrtan"---(Hear, hear.) But the principle involved
e-"er the eerie% consideration of gov.rntnent, an
kneathe erthrerilnent ryas making,' and would be made, in the
hear f`nmer that could b devised. The house should
Peia,
amind that, notwithstanding all the immensetegujall; money which bad been used to arrive at
' Was , ',Nein of secondary punishments, still, as
lileet.-rmta., no extensive pl in was in operation.—
Well a'sf"enr.) Then he called upon ttie house to consider
"Uthe -.m.er by a vote, it at once called upon the military
favourable
t to accomplish that which, under the tnost
•
*Nine circumstances and with the
14.1' had hitherto proved beyond reach.—(Hear, hear,
*se lie had thus lon dined the house, because he
tOteretlstiremetY anxious that not one hon. member should
tilen_t 4 the least particle of the feeling that the govern-
] f 4 desirous to give the question the go by. Such
if h.O the fact. It had occupied, anti it would occupy,
thrir ba.nds the most serious attention of. tee
altuthot"Tents It h 'id been said, take from the military
"rid 3 mit." the power of flogging and they would soon
mod
ft cient substitute. That appeared to him a
wade•
aine°'os mode of looking at the question. It was
g'adt 'roe that if any army was in a position which
'll ihal- necessary for it to advance, and there was a bfriddgee.
14,14; tear Which appeared to present the means othose
elreht, tetleat, without in reality doing so, under
4brio anees the cutting off, the destroying, of the
ge Mi
cad get create an increased determination to. pro-
;lt Such a case had nothing in it that constituted
nlee•
tl,talei one with that of the authorities of the army
-ePrived of the power of inflicting corporeal punish-
pd it
_There Was, however, a case woich was parallel,
berm
w this surgeon is unskilful or tardy in per.
ng an
atchet nPeration, and the bystander takes up a
taa at once lopping off the limb, says, " Take up
411 the'les, cover the niuscles stanch the blood, and do
pat' that
Possible for the' safety of your interesting
146,nd., s ould such an interference enable the surgeon
‘ftlaar -tte'tltute for his want of skill or his tat din, ss ?
rahon,tdel t'e
tuhe:rs.) Surely not, and yet such was the
and am, course recommended by the motion of the
„"", brio,. ant member. fie therefore called upen the
.4:eat -e it eas„,
reat with,taeuty proceeded to embarrass. the govern.
aj-a-14:111e 'r.4vvio the power to inflict corporeal
fairnt' BPae to the experiment now in course of
"rd 441Ing•••••-(Flear, hear.)
LlVlnich 4r.II,II',INGTON then rose, but from the noise
aeaad it:et-el+ tae house, was but Nary imperlectiy
Legted tat" gallerY. He would oppose the mutton, but
diet e house would not infer from that circumstance,
Plthishin Wai an advocate for the infliction of corporeal
hi, (.0 "'Qs except for serious offences. In expressing
enthoriatvieet'on that it was expedient to iuvest
s with the poveer olio punishing tbetirheiruneidli,tabrye

thought it proper to state, that he grounded that convic-
tion on his own personal experience during the twelve
years he had been in tic a• my. In the recent discussion
which had taken place in that litai,e on the subject of the
impressment of seamen, it had been justly remarked by a
gallant admiral (Sir Edward Codrington,) that the scum
only of the earth were subjected to the lash. It was pre-
cisely the same with r gard to corporeal punishment in the
army. The bad only were subjected to military torture;
the good escaped that species of punishment. If solitary
confinement were had recourse to as a substitute, the con-
sequence would be most injurious to the discipline and
morals of the army. The offender would cotne out of
prison more demoralized, from his unavoidable occasional
association with felons, that u hat he went in. If the
power of inflicting corporeal punishment were withdrawn
from the military authorities, it would soon be found that
crime had greatly increased in the army. It was indis-
pensably necessary that severe punishments should be re-
sorted to among the British troops. It was found neces-
sary by the civil law to inflict severe punishment for the
offence of theft. It was still more necessary that such
offence, when committed in the army, should meet with
severe punishment, particularly when one 'soldier stl'e
from another. It had been said that, though it might
not be advisable to dispense with corporeal punishments in
all instances, they might be dispensed with in some. He
would answer that position by appealing to the house,
what they conceived would be the effect of enforcing cor••
poreal punishment abroad, which is the thing meant,
while the punishment inflicted at home was only solitary
confinement. Would not the consequence be, that soldiers
would have an aversion to going abroad, and that, there-
fore, we should not be able to maintain sufficient forces in
other parts of the world? There existed the same grounds
in the artny as there did in the navy for a uniformity of
punishment in the different places in which soldiers were
stationed. He was aware that in thus expressing his opinion
in favour of corporeal punishments, he differed from many
of his friends for whom he had a high respect. Never-
theless, he could not refrain from conscientiously discharg-
ing what appeared to him his duty on the present occa-
sion, and the consideration of the circumstance would
afford him satisfaction.

Mr. BUCKINGHAM supported the motion, on the
ground that the object of all punishment ought to be to
coerce the mind rather than the broly.
Mr. LENNARD supported the motion, because he
considered the punishment of fl-'ping had the effect of
deterring persons of any respectability of character or good
feelings from entering the army.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, •hat although he was ready to
admit that the British army was the bravest in the world,
he felt that there was no persons to whom he would less rea-
dily concede the power of inflicting the punishment of flog.
ging than the young officers who mostly composed regimental
courtsinartial.- This brutal, this degrading punishment,
had been abolished in the French, the American, and the
Belgian armi••s. He would mention the French army
as an instance of good discipline being effected without
flogging, and the English soldiery were as capable of good
discipline without flogging as any other soldiery. Last year
the house had declared the Negroes should be exempt from
the lash, and surely they would extend the same exemption
to British soldiers.

An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not clearly
ascertain, slid, that the having to inflict corporeal punish-
ment at all was a source of great distress to the officers
of the army, and he trusted that the house would see the
advantage of substituting secondary, instead of corporeal
punishment, not only in military, hut in civil offences.
Sir J. BYNG wished to vindicate the officers of the
British army from the aspersions of the hon. and learned
member for Dublin, who had asserted that they were not
fit persons to he in•rusted with the punishment of the
lash ; lie (Sir J. Byng), on the contrary, would say that
he well knew, front long experience in the army, th it
no persons could exercise such a power with greater dis-
cretion and effect. With reference to punishment itself,
he had to observe that, within the last two years, al-
though corporeal punishments had been diminished, the
number of offences had increased to a considerable ex-
tent; and he, therefore, trusted that the house would
pause before they c..nsented to the hon. and gallant
member's motion. He (Sir J. Byng) had heard several
old and experienced soldiers give their opinion that if
corporeal punishments were done away with, there would
be no peace in the army, and no security for civil subjects.
Mr. SHELL would merely ask one question, which wa•
why the returns which had been ordered, on the motion
of Mr. Hunt, of the number of corporeal punishments in-
flict.-d from 1825 to 1832, had not been made to the
house? Such a return would be a very important matter
of consideration ; yet, although it had been regularly or
der. d, none such had been made. He, therefore, wished
to know why the return had not been made. An hon.
member had deprecated agitating this question ; why, it
was precisely an agitation of the question which had
effected the doing away with that monstrous abuse, the
punishing by instalments, which had formerly prevailed ;
and it was only by agitating abuses that their removal
could be effected.

Mr. ELLICE said that the return alluded to by the
hen. and learned member had been moved for before he
came into office : whatever returns had been moved for
since he came into office he had never failed in bring for-
ward, and he had made one return on this subject. It
had been stated that the experiments, as they were called,
made within the last year, had failed: lie did nut know
how this might be; all he could say was, that. the extent
of corporeal punishment had been materialy lessened. It
had been als / stated, that many soldiers had been fl gged
for petty thefts, and other trivial offences, which ought to
have come under the jurisdiction of the civil magistrates;
but this was not the ease. Nu man was more desirous
than himself individu ,Ily —no government more desirous
than the present government, to do away, as soon or as
much as possible, with corporeal punishment; but it was
absolutely necessary that time should be allowed them for
ascertaining how tar the total abolition of this punish-
ment would be compatible with the preservation of mili-
tary discipline and civil order. As it was (as we under-
stood the right hon. gentleman) there had been a large
increase in the number of assaults by soldiers on civil
subjects. Government had under consideration every ar-
rangement for the substitution of secondary punishment as
soon as practi •abl,!; and if the hon. and gallant gentleman
would leave the matter in the hands of government, he
might rely upon their effecting his object as soon as they
possibly could, consistently with preserving due military
discipline and civil order.
Colonel EVANS supported the motion, and could as-
sure the house there was a strong feeling out of doors upon
the subject, which eventually could not he resisted. The
reason why the class to which the question under consi•
detation more peculiarly referred was looked upon as so
degraded, was becau-e of this degrading punishment to
which they were subjected.
Lord DUDLEY STUART, at that late hour—
(Question, question)—did not wish to press upon the
time of the house, and yet was anxious to say a few
words in explanation of his vote. When there was but
small support to this question many years ago, be was
the opponent of the flogging system. The question had
progressed by agitation, and its friends should uncea-
singly agitate it. Though he could not support his gal-
lant friend on the present occasion, he was obi ged to him
for the introduction of the subject, as it would have the
effect of improving the condition of the soldier, and ame-
liorating the severities to which he was at present sub-
jected. It was certain that the attention of the public to
this question had greatly improved the condition of the
soldier. Minorities had produced their effects in that
house—(Cheers)—and though there were in toy reasons
why this question should be by discussion kept befor:
the public, still he (Lord D. Stuart) could not support
the motion of the gallant and hon. gentleman, until a
proper substitute was bit upon for preserving
Sir E. CODRINGTON would not trespass tin the
house, except merely to answer an objection which had
been made with regard to preservation of d scipline.
From his own observation he could say, that the justice
of the sentence, and not the mode or quantity of punish-
ment, was that which produced the beneficial effect, and
he tound that where that condition of punishment was
most attended to, there was the greatest readiness to enter
into the service.—(Cheers.) He instanced this, by ad-
ducing the case of a ship, in which three modes had been
adopted. At first the person who had it in command
was exceedingly lax, and there was no comfort in the
vessel. The next officer appointed produced some regu-
garity, by resorting to prompt punishment for every of-
fence. He who sueceeded by mere discipline obviated
every necessity of punishment. The secret of his disci-
pline was justice.
Mr. HAWES said, as the government were doing all
in their power to lessen the evil, he would leave this ques-
tion io their hands. .

Mr. HUME observed upon the silence of the govern-
ment on this question, and intimated that it entirely lay
:n the hands of the Commander-in-Chief.
Lord W. LENNOX, amid loud cries of " Question,"
said, the measure proposed was too sweeping and general.
The few other observations he made were lust in loud
cries of " Qaestion, question."
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, the house
divided, when there ap. eared—
For Major Fancourt's motion 94
Against it
Majority —135

The house then went into a committee of ways In
means.

Lord ALTHORP moved that 7,000.0001. be gran'ed
on account of supply towards his Majesty, out of the con-
solidated fund.

The motion Was agreed to, the report brought up, and
ordered to be received on Monday next.
_..

On tl:e motion that the house should resolve itself into
a committee of supply,
Mr. HUME &fleeted to the housegoing,into committee
of supply at one o'clock in the morning.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON hoped his hon. friend would
not object, as there were many memb•rs present, and he
wished to brine on his motion for a grant to Captain Ro•s.
Mr. HUME said be did not wish to oppose the motion,
hut that was not a proper hour to bring it on—he cer-
tainly would oppose the motion for going into a committee.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG also ohj-cted to the lateness of the
hour. He did not think the vote proposed sufficiently
I arge ; and he thought, moreover, they would he only
;onsulting the feelings of the gallant captain, by avoiding
the possibility of its being said that the vote TV4ls smuggled
through the house at a late hour at night.—(Hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON would object to going into coin
mittee of supply at that hour under ordinary circum.
stances, but mere especially when it was for the sake of a
vote to a private individual.
Lord ALTHORP would not press the going into coins
inittee aeainst the feeling of the house.—Postponed till
Monday next.
Sir 0. MOSLEY obtained leave to bring in a bill to
amend the laws relaing to parish apprentices. The hon.
baronet gave notice that on Wednesday before the house
went into committee on the Stafford Disfranchisement
Bill, he should move that the evidence taken before the
committee should be referred to a select committee, in
order to ascertain whether a sufficiently numerous pure
constituency could not be found in that borough.
_ _

Mr. Alderman THOMPSON moved for returns of the
number of vessels that passed the Sound in the years 1831.
1832, and 1833, distineuishing the different countries to
which they belonged.—Ordered.
The other order. of the d'y were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at a quarter past one.

DECIMAL CURRENCI.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.

SIR.,—R• marks were, I believe, more than once made
in the House of Commons, during the last session, abotit
the utility of introducing into this country the decimal
process of computation, on the ground of its being a
simple, accurate, and easy mode of carrying on com-
mercial calculations, and also furthermore showing that
we already approached very near to the decimal system in
many respects, and that it might be here carried into
effect without much difficulty in moneys, weights, and
measures. It is with reference to the former that I now
venture to trouble you with some remarks, which may or
may not, according to your decision, be useful, and con-
sequently worth or not worth a space in your columns.
The present money calculations of bankers, merchants,
and others, are encumbered and delayed by the circuitous
process of reckoning with four denominations, viz , pounds,
shillings, pence, and farthings, carrying so many fours
from the first column to the second ; so many twelves
from the second to the third ; and again so many twen-
ties from the third to the fourth, before the final point
can be arrived at, which appears to me to be a kind of
heavy drag on working accounts, at least in comparison
with the having only two denominations of moneys in
bookkeeping, and those arranged decimally, so that the
working may he perfectly simple, and the higher kind of
money distinguished and separated from the lower by
striking off the decimal figures. This decimal arrangement
i• now in practice in many countries, and is, I believe,
highly approved of ou account of the facility and accuracy
of its results, as well as saving of time in the making up
of accounts, buying and selling stock, and all kinds of
money transactions. I may instance Naples, where they
calculate in ducats and grains (100 grains to the ducat).
Holland—in florins (or guilders), and cents.
France—in francs and centimes.
Belgium—in francs and centimes.
United States of North America—dollars and cents.
Russia—roubles and copecks —(100 to the rouble.)

There are probably many oi hers, but these are suffi •
cient for the purpose, and I may now proceed to state
how very easily (as appears to me) the same plan may be
introduced into our own monetary system ; the terms I
should propose to adopt would be crowns and cents. I
specify "crowns," as not being a republican and inno
eating term ; it is also a term to which 7.te have been
accustomed—the crown to represent five shillings of our
eseat meney ; sod we shonld he able to avoid the
necessity of any kind of new coinage for the present, and
slide from the old into the new style with scarcely any
difficulty whateyer. Thus a sovereign would become a
four crown piece, and a half sovereign a two crownpiece,
a shilling 20 cents, the fifth of a crown (the primary
denomination), a sixpence would be a ten cent piece, anti
half a crown 50 cents. The only difficulty would
occur in the present lowest denomination, viz., the copper
coinage, and that might easily be conquered ; let the 12. w
p nny represent two cents, or ten to the shilling ; the new
halfpenny, one cent, or twenty to the shilling, i. e. 100
to the crown; the farthing half a cent—a lower coin
would not be required ; the old penny piece might pro-
vesionally, from its greater weight of copper ( 1 oz.), pass
fur two cents and a half, this latter arrangement to remain
in force until a new copper coinage be ready. This mea-
sure, together with the commutation of each penny into
two cents, would benefit the poorer class of people, and
miter ally injure no one. The national debt, instead
of 600,000,000/. sterling, would be designated three
thousand two hundred million crowns (C. 3,200,000,000).
If a party were d sirous of buying stock, he would pur-
chase four hundred crowns (C. 400) Cons ils, equivalent to
1001. ; and the prices might admit of more minute and gra-
dual approaches to each other than by the present eighths :
per cent is now 2s. 6d. or 50 cents, but, in a purchase of
0.100, would he 12i- cents. In adjusting every present
outstanoing account, the pounds would be quadrupled, and
one added for every five shillings, to turn the amount into
crowns; the fractions would be turned into cents: thus
—I owe C. Y. 1371. 178. 81t1.—four times 137 with
three adde are 551 crowns, and the remaining 2s. Sid.
become 57 cents—ti.us 551.57. How much quicker
twenty c 'lumps of such amounts would be cast together
than twenty columns of pounds, shillings, pence, and fir-
thing., I need not point out—the thing is self-evident. I
may add in refutation of an anticipated charge of innova-
tion aid confusion likely to arise from the transition, that
those steady, commercial, and business-like people, the
Dutch, (who cannot be accused of a desire for visionary
changt 10 impressed with a conviction of the advantages of
he decimal mode of monetary transactions, adopted the
same accordingly. The law of the kingdom of Holland,
which turned their guilders, penn'ngs, stivers, groots, &c.,
into simply forms (or guilders) and cents, was passed not
many years ago, and we should, perhaps, do well to ascer-
tain if any loss or confusion preceded the advantage they
now enjoy of possessing a quick and easy mode of calculat-
ing their "profits of stock.' We should also inquire into
the workings of the decimal money system in other coun-
tries, and, if we find the result to be favourable, it is a
subject that may surely be entertained by the legislature.
I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
J. C.

POLITICAL INFLUENCE OF WOMEN.-
Mrs. Jameson, in her very piquant Memoirs of the Beau.
ties of the Court of Charles 11., speaking of the Duchess
of Portsmouth, makes some very just reflections on the
subject of female influence—reflections that may not be
entirely unworthy of consideration in the reign of William
the Fourth ! It is certainly impossible to study history
without admitting that the political influence of women
has been great in all ages, and that it increases with the
progress of civilization and the diffusion of know! dge. It
cannot be denied—it cannot be suppressed. Is not the
next alternative to render it beneficial to society ? If a
woman could once be taught to appreciate the grand stake
she has in the political institutions of her country, and to
understand the interests of humani,j, at large, she would
no longer mix up with these considerations the petty
passions, errors, and prejudices, which have rendered the
political interference and influence of the sex a fertile source
of evil. One thing, however, is certain, that, thanks to
the progressive diffusion of freedom and knowledge, a
Maintenon will never more half depopulate France, nor a
Portsmouth bargain with a foreign despot for the sale of
English liberty.

An affecting incident, showing the maternal
affection of the stork, occurred on the thy of the memo-
ranle battle of Friedland, as related by M. Bury St. Vin-
cent :_« A farm in the neighbournoo4 of the city
was set on fire by the falling of a numb, and the con-
flagration extended to an old dry tree, on which a pair
of storks bad built their nest. It was then the season
of incubation, and the mother would not quit the nest
until it was completely enveloped in flames ; she then flew
up perpendicularly, and when she bad attained to a great
t:eight, dashed down into the mid.t of the fire, as it en-
deavouring to rescue the precious deposit from des ruc-
tion. In one of these descents, ei,v,loped in file and
smoke, she fell into the midst of the burning embers, and
perished

FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE.

ST. JAMES'S PALACE, MARCII 19., 1834

This day had audiences of his Majesty

The Count de Ludolf, Envoy Extraordinary and Minister
Plenipotentiary from the King of the Kingdom of the Two
Sicilies, to deliver a letter from his Sovereign ;

And M. Garro, Minister Plenipotentiary from the United
Mexican States, to deliver a letter from the President of those
States :

To which audiences they were respectively introduced by
Lord Viscount Palmerston, his Majesty's Principal Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, and conducted by Sir Robert Chester,
lint., Master of the Ceremonies.