The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 21, 1851.

by their mandate from the Flaminian- gate, no one was to be
allowed to challenge their authority?—(Hear, hear.) Tho
Proteitaut Members of that House had not sworn yel to obey
that man ate, although Hon. Gentlemen opposite had done
so.—(Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh.") The people were
at present willing to ab:de by the decision of th leaders of
the parties to which they looked up, and to abide by the
decision of that House. But it those leaders were to throw
them over, if the House were to refuse to give them sufficient
protection, they woul i take the law into their own hands ; and
the only way to preserve the public peace would be to give
them a Bill with adequate powers for ensuring the objects
they had in view. Of course when the nation was excitet
—(Laughter, and cries of `• Hear," in a very loud and jeering
tone from a few of the Roman Catholic Members)—when the
people were excited, men were influenced by various motives ;
but if there was any one feeling in which the peoplee were
more unanimous than in any other, it was in an honest John
Bull hatred of imposture—(Hear, hear)—and of impostures
and in pity (or their dupes.—(Derisive cheers from the Roman
Cotholic Members.) Were they going to have in this coun-
try cargoes of blinking statues, of bleeding pictures of liqui-
fying blood, of Virgin Mary's milk?-Loud cries of " Hear,
hear," from the same Members.)
Mr. OTLAIIERTY rose to order. He was not a very ex-
perienced Member of that House ; but he respectfully ap-
pealed to the English House of Commons—to a body which
he had always understood to be composed of men of gentle-
manly feeling —of men who would not permit any portion of
the Members of that House (Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—
or any portion of her Majesty's subjects, professing no matter
what creed they might conscientiously believe to be right—
who would not permit them to be wantonly insulted ; and he
did hope that even at that moment there would be some ex-
pres ion of feeling with reap .ct to the language which had
been held by the Hon. Gentleman whom he called to order.
—( Hear.) He believed that Gentleman's language was
worthy of his tastes as well as his judgment.
Sir G. GREY here rose, but immediately gave way to
other Members who seemed eager to address the House.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL moved the adjournment of the House.
Mr. P. HOWARD seconded the motion.—(Cries of
" Chair" and " Order.")
The S 'EAKER said Let me intreat of Hon. Members
not to interrupt the regular course of the debate. But at the
same time I do hope, that on a qttestion of so much delicacy
as this, upon a matter which relates to the religion of a por-
tion of her Majesty's subjects, Hon. Members will abstain
from all exnressions of an offensive character.— (Cheers.)
Mr. DRUMMOND again rose, but was for a moment in-
terrupted by
An Hoc. MEatneu on the benches occupied by the Ro-
man Catholic party, who exclaimed—" We are not here to
be insulted. "
Mr. DRUMMOND then proceeded to say, that an Hon.
Member had last night pointed out to them the fact that Car-
dinal Wiseman had specially selected—The Hon. Gentleman
bad not concluded the sentence, when
Mr. .1 O'CONNELL said that the Mon. Member for Sur-
rey, having been reprimanded, ought in common decency to
apologise. (Oh, oh )
The r;PEAKER said—The Honourable Gentleman is him-
self g.iilty of a breach of order. I did not call the Honour-
able Member for Surrey to order, nor did I venture to repri-
mand him. I only took the liberly of expressing a hope
that the Honourable Member, in the course of a debate so
delicate, and so exciting as the present, would abstain from
using expressions likely to cause irritation.—(Hear.)
Mr. MOORE rose to order—(Cries of "Order" and
"Chair.")—The expressions used by the Hon. Member for
Surrey were not merely disrespectful to the religious feelings
of some Members of that House, but would be out of order
in any Christian assembly.—(Great confusion,)
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Gentleman is clearly out of
order. _ _

4*(l°l was the law as laid down in their authorities. He
eitudle d then briefly call their attention to the oath taken by
ow Inels. It wa-, to the following effect : - " I promise and
LeP.' from this time forward and as long as I shall live to
ri.ipthfal and obedient to the bishopric of St. Peter, to his
issi,!ega the Pope, the Head of the Catholic Church, and
",7.11 will fight for (the word used was propugnor), endea-
-7t and stand forth for him, against all others, with all my
Zgth and power." Could a man after taking that oath
1,2 Ile oath of allegiance to the Queen?-(Hear.) What
orliitah.rtduien rule in making a cardinal. "That man or boy (for
I sometime too, made boys cardinals) having been made
al, fror'n' that moment ceased to be under the control
,„ Is father." Now it was not enough for the Pope to have
Zselted our constitution by sending that cardinal, who was
gtoll to fight fur him against all others, and eight other
41.4 bona to this country, but he should presume also to set
kit all the bishoprics in England. The Hon. Member here
kgrtlX,l to and read a couple of
.extracts from the Papal re-
, kniest in reference to the old existing arrangements and cus-
hi of this country, which the new bishops were to assist
toodelling anew. Indeed he (Mr. Drummond) had
"io:er seen one of those pastoral letters which did nut
aittlll a falsehood in itself.-(Laughter.) It was as-
-1110 in a pastoral letter in Ireland the other day
4,,, "le see of Canterbury had been established by Pope
IteilltetY. Now, any one who took the trouble to read the
actable Bede, might find that it was the King who had
11,411 shed that see; and, indeed, there was no evidence of
sssePe having attempted to do anything of himself in this
:try without the sanction and interference of the civil
ri,er. But they bad been told by the Papal organ (the
tcuiet newspaper, we believe), that all their legislation upon
t% suhject would be null and void, because it was op-
ed to the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. (The
thl\* ?limber here read an extract from the journal in qur s-
hut). That was the arrogant tone assumed by their oppo-
el„,„t He would, however, next pass to another class, the
their el utilitarians, who asked bow the matter would touch
ait Pockets. These gentlemen said they wished to know ttther any persons, or any class, were demanding their
e
etioa. But did the negro slave ask for protection?
1/14 the frimdless child ask for protection ? Did the poor
athWho was locked up in a convent, where she might be
of her starved or flogged into acquiescence with the views
Il'aZ superiors, ask for protection ? - (Cries of " Oh, oh.")
k? might cry " Oh, oh," but he would tell them that
e nunneries were either prisons or brothels, they might
" their ch •
Th nice.
tedege Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said he rose to
14 f,'-'(" Hear, hear," from the Roman Catholic Members.)
,11"4",,ad but that moment entered the House, and he had
lit, " the Hon. Member for Surrey-unless he had mistaken
'Cords - he had heard him say that a nunnery was either
ir,BAoll or a brothel. He asked the Speaker whether it was
4 ;4,er for any Hon. Member to state that those nunneries
ahr "ich resided ladies - (Hear, hear) - who devoted them.
th" to the service of God, who endeavoured to attain to
Geerfection of all evangelical precepts-whether it was in
'O2 for any Member of that House to refer to them in terms
ill:graceful ?- (Hear, hear.)
lisloa SPEAKER said that in answer to the question of the
lto,e Earl he should say that nothing had fallen from the
hvZ Member for Surrey which was inconsistent with the
irl" of debate allowed to Members of that House.
r. GRATTAN rose and hastily uttered a few words
'quail did not reach us.
14411,1100 RE said he would suggest to the Hon. Member
t,,.
_the observations in which he was indulging were calcu-
it het" lead to retor: and retaliation, and that it would not,
1t the be consistent with the dignity of the House
14" e Hon. Member should indulge in such language.
!ht./ ' DRUMMOND said he was obliged to any Hon. Mem.
44 irt?"l whom he received any merited correction. But he
Nil unselt been interrupted in his argument by the excla-
kens of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. He would, however,
eed, and then they would see what was that evangelical
ection to which the Roman Catholic Church was advanc-'
tip,e Noble Earl (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey) had
r ens on a former occasion that he had presented a peti-
int: the Papal See for the very thing that had lately been
kig t 8q that the Pope 'in sending over Cardinal Wiseman
kiti:ll establishing a Roman Catholic hierarchy, had done
IltsynselY what the Romal Catholics in this country had
sok'', him to do. Now he (Mr. Drummond) bad never
lied that petition, but as the Noble Earl had said that it
st ti.heen presented he could have no doubt of the truth
1111,..." statement. Bat he said that that was directly in
Pig teeth of another petition which had been presented to
ti 'Pal Court by other Roman Catholics. He held in
nandl' a petition, signed by Lord Petre and a number of
rust respectable Roman Catholic gentlemen, in which
elOeprecated the adoption of any scheme which would
ttieli.e missionaries of the religious orders of the
oat tZge of voting at the election of vicars apostolic.
edeartt was the very result which would follow from the
Lk"' lc% of the scheme which had just been introduced into
llOte e°llrlttY. Under that scheme the great mass of the
that an Catholic clergy would be in a worse position than
~ltsebioh they had previously occupied, and would be
tato3' without redress against the oppression of their
t 1 °°,P°; for they might at any moment be dismissed from
atii,lvings by these bishops without any reason being as-
)1117, for their dismissal. They were, however, generally
tern triq,,3 Who had no other means of gaining a livelihood, so
theY would be dependent on the will of their bishops
by 4 letir daily bread. He held in his hand a letter written
kir °man Catholic priest, a friend of his, and published
ea Years ago, in which that reverend gentleman depre-
ttttott4oY attempt to increase the powers of the vicars
akt i.,, c by converting them into bishops in the manner that
ketectentlY been adopted. That showed that that was not
iliteezil a question of title, and that it was not true that the
?tle of did not trench on the rights of the great
ltat'isof the Roman Catholic clergy and laity. He held in
dat„7and a letter from a Roman Catholic in Rome, and
Visthis very year, in which the writer stated that a brief
kietning prepared to force on the Roman Catholics of
lts's`lici the canon law of Rome, which was very different
NI le
N the canon law of this country, inasmuch as it made
lops absolute masters of all Church temporalities, such
ob,s_ quests and benefices. The writer added that the great
ttlf.,r of thee reation of the new mock hierarchy was the in-
hti Llction of that canon law, which would by that means
sss'etablished for the first time in this country. He had
tic: letters from Roman Catholic clergymen denouncing
'4',4, empt to render them wholly dependent on the will
tteir bishops. (The Hon. Member here read some ex-
bh:',3 from those letters.) Now he would say that if no
tri. else would stand up for those poor men, he had a
14et to do so.-(Laughter from the Roman Catholic Mem-
tilte) Dr. Ullathorne had asked whether information of
el"; description was communicated by Roman Catholic
ltaPneni n full communion with the Church ; but he knew
a; that if they made themselves known they would at once
ett4ePrieed of their livings. Dr. Wiseman had treated the
VethCe,,as one which would not affect the position of Roman
kik i:?uos in this country. But ha (Mr. Drummond) would
the Inf
man Catholic
could be intended more dicectly to deceive
%I? Catholic laity than the pamphlet of Dr. Wise-
Why,,_ Dr. Wiseman knew that it was directly calcu-
li teo mislead the Roman Catholic laity. Let them look
1144 Pamphlet of Lord Shrewsbury, which had " let
Ytt t out of the bag." Dr. O'Finnan had been dismissed
ae •
011 order from Rome from the bishopric of Killala, f r
that tsh.er reason than that he had appealed to British law-
in "e had appealed to the Court of Queen's Bench
te "e • in his
Greet; Year 1937 ; and Lord Shrewsbury, letter
1 • APHale, said :-" Dr. O'Finnan, one of your
silliti: suffragans, was dispossessed of the diocese of
true o,f and another thurst into his place, as the successful
Ileitis, `an intrigue in Rome." The pretensions and the
teatkif the Papal See had remained at all times ut.i-
tillsor' lie had at that moment extracts from the writ-
te sne less than 21 Popes-(A laugh)-he did not mean
delta' them to the House-extending from the year 731
Ire!" to a very recent period, all asserting that the Popes
Itirit taa paramount in things temporal as well as in things
t, s 1t0441.--( Hear, hear.) There was not a doctrine of
teas illan Catholic Church for which he could find
'saver or more unbroken testimony. One Pope said that
te taelt,bo denied that he was lord over temporal matters
tar 4' as over spiritual, were " wild beasts"-(Hear,
eat end laughter)-were " asini" -were the body
btgrist,r--were " members of the devil and of Anti-
Ilin e, --(Renewed cries of "Hear, hear," and laughter ) It
.titi ell known, however, that Popes had deposed Sovereign
Iti4.netees.) and. had absolved their subjects from their alle-
kat• oeven councils had given decisions in favour of the
Nile! the Popes to supreme temporal power. But he
wd i °I! told that the claim had been disputed. Yes; but
stcitorit been disputed? They had heard of the index expur-
Zgep4B. Which contained a list of all beoks condemned by
Pee Pal .See. The writings of none of these Popes had
Napilltl.tlt into the index expurgatorius, whils all the writings
lillalt Itig their claim to temporal power, which were prin.
s LY the roductions of Frenchmen, had been put into it.
t'''',elpoest it wonld be idle to deny that the Popes claimed a
tid sit' superiority over Christendom just as much as they
03,11'ver what was called St. Peter's patrimony. Dr.
telttlis' in his letter to Lord Liverpool, made use of the fol..
esiS language :-" It is quite obvious that these claims
lite of their origin in the Gospel, or in the doctrines of
\i"'",,_lnan Catholic Church, but in the state of society
)t 141 e zeal and the mistaken. ambition of Popes, directed
te eltle,aCiable avarice, pride, and thirst for power." But
telissitialln bad, nevertheless, been put forward and ea-
i.rei'"t Pope Boniface, writing to Philip le Bel of
Ore. i after sending him many greetings, said-
`e t wish you to know that you are subordinate to us, both
tt t,lni,Poral and spiritual concernsand Philip wrote back
K:1°1" : " Philip, by the grace of God, to Boniface,
,N-1,7 as. Pope, little or no greeting-(A laugh)-you are
ass y informed that in temporal concerns we are not sub-
-I,,,l'eate to you "
Inesents. N What were the means by which the
had carried out their doctrines upon that subject?
4'4' hY excommunication and by a denial of the n-
ista Now the sacraments had been given as instru-
-1%47 of grace to the laity, but priests had tnken them as
eds amours of ersecntion and villany. One of the things
runt that Bill 13
si a to be most regretted was, that it had prevented
-111°Inall Catholic laity from rebelling against the Synod
ht. kir„les.
, 114). 4.,OWER -No such thing.
elstl',l-111UMMOND-Why, the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
ell,. ''"e Member for Athlone (Mr. Keogh) had told them
Riqi The Roman st Catholic divines taught that all who
Llitaiit(! for their own spiritual advancement should yield an
elgiitit obedience to their spiritual superiors wherever they
"ke be. In 11 known work they were required to
tile a a we -
,Ilti it as a stick in the hands of a man who walked
ii:l'het : and as dead bodies, perfectly passionless." In an-
Ifni Plssage it was stated that nothing could involve an °b-
et, Ur Lord
sin unless a superior. commanded it in the name
1./441, Jesus Christ, or in virtue of' holy obedience.-
Los ,i hear.) Dr. Wiseman bad lately published an edi-
Zilie-t2le "Exercises" of Loyola. In the preface to that
cer %title said, "In the Roman Catholic Church ne one is
„etei,, owed to trust himself in spiritual matters ; the So-
'elle Pontiff 'liras -if is obliged to trust to others in what
the. :Ile his own soul." Now number 13 of those exercises
Nat,',3 fellows :-" That we may in all things attain truth,
ka.edt!llay not err in anything, we ought ever to hold it as
a, ln"„knlinciple that what we see white we must believe to
tgllkt ~."' if the Church so commands it."-(Hear, hear.)
~,.lgtias the evangelical holiness which Cardinal Wiseman
F, "itai„_ Why those men appeared like Thugs. The Thugs
,;te anted murder as an act of worship ; and those men told
i'setlef,t,ll act of worship. There were plenty of liars in the
i.uipi, out in that case they had men pretending to be wor-
ZhlteerssB'.lGod ready for the sake of that worship to say that
tlas tit; `l black.-(Hear ) Talk of degradation ! Where
,4„lits re any negro slave in such a state of degradation as
~.'"e4tllidst all the horrors of the slave trade the negro was
•ollts,i ito express truly his opinion of the sugar which he
ift..qoatsl-)°Pe said that an " honest man was the noblest work
Ifia esin and men of every sect ought to disdain to tell a lie.
e N.ldlltrY was indignant upon that subject. But some
"Ms lel/11)m had stated most unwisely-and no one more
%elite 3' than the Hon. Member for Ayrshire-that the
ki,l:Ydid not care about the matter.
t),litr. bB,,,WALD-I beg pardon, I never said so.- (Hear.)
,qat 4 "UMMO \ID continued-Why it had been said in
sit °use over and over again that the people had been
llot ed to
e, the agitation of that question, and that they did
th ri about•
.r,' %eaen-etlvrad iint.
(do, He was eorry they had been exc red in
lleit,,Y,ltiteley had been.--(Laughter, and derisive cries of
was ii. . hear," from the Roman Catholic Members.) He
nciliation Hall nor in monster meetine.
ttia,ioi_ ed laughter from the same Members.) Both in
tleir if s's.and in practice he hated their Whig doctrines and
kite ki.‘_,lcal performances.- (Continued laugher.) Whe-
-40 ihrf.• Members willed it or not, he would state the truth,
—1
thiak tUit if they Aflealpted t 9 11119 thia coluitry

Mr. GRATTAN-1 am an old Member of the House, and
I call the Hon. Member for Surrey to order in consequence
of the improper expressions he has used. I have a right—
and I know ,it has been done—to move that his words be
taken down. I ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, and the older Members of the House, if I am not
in order, and if your predecessors, Sir, have not taken that
course?
Mr. DRUMMOND rose to speak, but the uproar was so
great that he resumed his seat.
Mr. GRATTAN again insisted that he had a right to have
the words taken down.
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Gentleman is clearly mistaken
in his view of, the rule. The Hon. Member for Surrey is
entitled by 'the rules of debate to use any expressions he
pleases, prov.ded he uses none personally offensive to any
n Member or one disrespectful to the House. All that I
said was by way of caution, and not as a reprimand.
Mr. J. O'CO N. NELL again rose and insisted on his right
to address the House amidst the greatest confusion.
The SP EAKER —I must can on Hon- Members to support
me.—(Loud and protracted cheers, which lasted several
seconds.) I have already stated that the Hon. Member for
Surrey was not out of order, and I beg now that we may pro-
ceed with the debate.—(Renewed cheers )
Mr. DRUMMON D said—l was not out of order, and I was
not reprimanded ; but I was provoked by repeate t and offen-
sive interruptions to say the things which, in the heat of
argument, escaped my lips. I have not been reprimanded,
and I do not in substance retract one word, but I say that, if
I have given offence, whether merited or unmerited, to any
individual, I humbly beg his pardon.—(Hear, hear.) Now I
will go to another subject. Cardinal Wiseman has told you
that his model and example is Thomas a Becket, in whose
footsteps he would tread. The fate of Thomas te Becket
(continued the Hon. Member), cruel and unjust as it was,
was only (he end of a long series of disputes, the object of
all which was to do what is now attempted—namely, to
create a hierarchy and establish a system which should ex-
empt the priesthood from the control of the temporal power.
The Protestantism of England had been characterised as de-
moniacal. (Oh, oh.) Oh ! they did not like to heaa re-
torts: but he asked simper ego auditor tantum, nun quam
reponam ?—(A laugh ) His belief was that this Bill, as far
as Ireland was concerned, was manifestly unjust and uncalled
for; but he thought they must pass a law to prohibit car-
dinals from living in this country.—(Hear, hear.) They
must pass a law to m .ke all deeds done under this canon
law null and' void de facto. They must enact a law, as to
convents and monasteries, similar to that existing in Bava-
ria, and not permit voes to be taken ; and he would extend
the Mortmain Acts, so as not to allow any dying man to be
robbed, whatever might lee his sect.—(Hear, hear.) In ad-
dition to this, his belief was that they had arrived at a state
of things not only with regard to the Roman Catholics, but
also with regard to the Churches of England and Scotland
and all similar bodies, in which they could go on no longer.
There was a book which some of them were not allowed to
read, and that book contained several letters addressed to
laymen, and two letters addressed to two bishops. In
the letters to the laymen nothing was said about the love
of money, but in the letters to those two bishops it
was declared that the love of money was the root of all
evil. It was not necessary that they should imitate all
that their fathers had ne, but they should do their duty in
their generation, as their fathers had done in theirs. Ile did
sot deny that the suppors of religi n by the State might at
the commencement have been useful; he did not deny that
monkery might also have been useful ; but it was his firm
conviction that these institutions had come to an end, and
that their utility had ceased, and that it would be impossible
to continue them. It was the tendency of priests of every
sect to domineer over the people, and he would conclude, in
the language of Cardinal Bembo, when he said he mixed
himself up with the concer, s of priests with great reluc-
tance, for he generally found them guilty of all human
wickedness, covered with a diabolical hypocrisy.
The SPEAKER having left the chair for a few minutes,
the House presented a scene of great excitement, Hon.
Members assembling together in groups and engaging in
earnest conversation. Mr. H. Grattan crossed the House,
and addressed a few words to Mr. Drummond. accompanied
by very animated gesticulations, and retired to his seat, fol-
lowed by that Hon. Member, and Mr. H. Grattan was after-
wards surrounded by a large number of Irish Members, with
whom he was engaged in conversation when the Speaker re-
turned.
The Speaker having returned, orde- was restored, and Sir
James Granam, Mr. Grattan, and Mr. Moore rose to ad-
dress the Hon ae
Sir J. GIte.HAM having been called upon by the Speaker,
proceeded to say—l am glad, Sir, a short pause has taken
place in our proceedings, and 1 hope nothing will fall Irons
me that will tend to disturb the gravity of this debate, and
the calmness with which the great subject now before us
ought to be discussed.—(Hear, hear.) I bend, Sir, implicitly
to, your decision in every matter of order. I did not think
it was possible, until within the past half-hour, that any-
thing would 1 ave aggravated my sorrow on account of the
revival of this painful discussion, in which the subject of re-
ligion is involved ; but I must say, that what has just oc
cursed has further excited my most extreme regret.—
( Hear, h e ar. )
asl heahveelasre—ensea
igneenethleuaaiant:d3 h
anhs. accomplished
is
subjecthed
gentleman and .
from him,
.w—e(rdHe etahre,thfeeal ) I will
that he was discussing, as entirely to forget what was due
to the feelings of a large body of gentlemen sitting iu this
ugatl iht
ey
not
tuasue oyn termsm y
lips
both with respect individually to Hon. Members of
who eve devoted
this House, in reference to their veracity, and still less shall
I think of repeating an allusion_heeera; ma
hto the female
of
with pe
feepeeta teicin
relatives
(tUhetlir God,
.according to their
)
themselves to
those gentlemen—(
consciences, in lives of seclusion and in lives of chasti.y,—
(Cheers.) The orders of the House may on this occasion
have been observed to the letter, but if Roman Catholic
Members are to sit here and to take part in our debates, how
are the rules ~nd orders of the House to be maintained if
scones like this are to be repeated?—(Hear, hear.) Asser-
tions of the kind that have been made, and the tone and
manner in which they have been made, must not be repeated,
if the freedom of deuate and the order or rules of the House
are any longer to be maintained.— (Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member has said that he would enlarge the scope of this
debate, and he has treated us to a subject entirely of a reli-
gions kind. I shall venture also to enlarge the scope of the
debate, but I am happy to say I shall treat it as a political
question.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time, Sir, I think
that I should ill discharge my duty, considering the
immense extent of field now open on the question before
us, if I detained you any longer by those preliminary
remarks, and I shall proceed at once to enter into
the subject under discussion.--(Hear, hear.) Having, in a
short manner, addressed the House on a former occasion with
reference to, this subject, I shall, in what I mean to ad-
dress to you, repeat two admissious I made on a former oc-
casion. lam glad to make them, as they will tend to clear
the ground I intend to occupy. In the first place, I said,
what I now repeat, that I do think that the language used
by the Pope in this rescript, and by Cardinal Wiseman in his
pastoral letter, was arrogant in the extreme, and needlessly
offensive to the feelings of the great Protestant community
of this country.—(Cheers.) And I shall go further, and make
this second admission, that I think it was extremely difficult
for the servants of the Crown to have passed by that offence,
which had deeply wounded the Protestant feeling of a large
body of the community of Great Britain, in Silence and con-
tempt.—(Hear.) And I do think it might have been neces-
sary, and probably was necessary, in some authoritative way,
to re-assert those great Protestant principles which were
fixed at the Reformation—which were vindicated at the
Revolution—which were confirmed by the Act of Settle-
ment, and which were ratified on two memorable occasions
by the solemn compacts which were entered into, first on the
union of Scotland with England, and subsequently on the
union of Ireland with Great Britain.—(Hear.) I will not
new enter into the question that its raised by the Hon.
Member for the University of Oxford, as to the various
modes by which this might be done. I will not now discuss
whether it was possible to issue a royal proclamation, as_
serting strongly the supremacy of the Sovereign relative to
all temporal matters; and also her spiritual supremacy as
acknowledged by the members of the Church of England,
and as established by its rules, and generally appealing t
her subjects to maintain the principles to which I have
alluded, as having been settled at the ileformati ;n, at the
Revolution, and by the Act of Settlement.— (Hear.) I will
not, either, discuss whether it might be posssble to adopt
resolutions by the two Houses of Parliament, tobe embodied
in an address, and sent up by the two Houses to the foot of
the Throne or discuss the third suggestion which the Hon.
Gentleman made, that the offence which was given should
be matter of direct communication with the Court of tome
through the medium 'of a special embassy.—(Hear, hear.)
There was one suggestion of my Honourable Friend to
which I could not give my assent after the experience
of the last summer in the Mediterranean ; that
was to meet the thunder of the Vatican by the
more formidable tiltuader of her Ajettfq floOti Pc*

the orders of Sir William Parker, at Chita Vecchia or
Ancoe.a. ( Hear, hear.) The question before us is narrowed
as to the srav in which it is p:op-,sed t- meet this ag4res-
sion if legislaiiim h, the right mode of meeting it—and if so,
if this be the right Bill to promote it.—(Hear, hear.) When
I say this Bill, I hardly know whether it is my duty to dis-
cues the Bill in the shape I hold it in my hand, or in the
amended shape in which the authors of the Bill propose to
prim it.— (Hen., hear.) The strict rule of the House, and the
most proper rule, would lead me to discuss this Bill as it is,
and lam very much confirmed in my decision so to do, for
I confess rnv own first impression, when I' heard the altera-
tion that would be made in Committee by her Majesty's
Government, was to entertain great doubt whether the pre-
amble of this Bill, taken in connexion with other laws,
would not carry into effect the provisions of the second and
third clauses.—(Hear.) Teat was my impression at first; I
had great doubt about it; but that impression was subse-
quently very much strengthened by the opinion quoted by
the lion. Member for Dundalk, which I hold in my hand
and which was given by three eminent counsel—Mr. Bethel!,
Mr. Bramwell, and Mr. Surrege. Those gentlemen, being
authorities of the highest order, have given deliberately
their opinion that the first clause with the preamble would
in fact carry into effect all the provisions of the second and
third clauses which her Majesty's Government proposed to
exclude. (Hear.) That assertion was made before her
Majesty's Solicitor-General addressed the House—(Hear,
hear)—but I never heard that he grappled with the ques-
tion. It was not levity, lam sure, that caused him to pass
it over, and if it be not levity our position is a remarkable
one ; in that event, I apprehend, her Majesty's Government
would be bound to vote against the second reading of the
Bill.—(Laughter.) The first Minister of the Crown said
most frankly that the second and third clauses were con-
trary to their intentions, that they were clauses they would
not carry into effect. He said the second and third clauses
interfered with ordination in Ireland, and the collation to
benefices and traversed bequests made to bishops and priests
and their successors, and altogether would produce such an
effect as he neither contemplated nor desired, and that it
would be his duty to withdraw those clauses —(Hear, hear.)
But, really, the withdrawal of the second and third clauses
will have no effect while the preamble and the first clause
stand.- (Hear. hear.) Then, Sir, her Majesty's Government
must feel that it is impossible for them, acting under a sense.
of duty with reference to the second and third clauses, to
maintain the first clause, if it have the effect which I appre-
hend they are not prepared to maintain.—(Hear.) I shall
now pass on to other considerations—to far greater and
higher considerations. My principal objection to the Bill is
first, that it is an extension of a penal enactment ; and in
the second place, that it is the reversal of a policy, and cal-
culated for doing great evil.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now,
Sir, I am at once met by the serious difficulty which almost
always meets us whenever we legislate In the va'n hope,
where a question of religion is concerned, of reconciling the
conflicting interests of Great Britain and Ireland.—(Hear,
bear.) And if I had any doubt upon this matter before I
heard the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the
Solicitor-General, I cannot now entertain the slightest doubt
that there never was a matter bearing so strongly upon the
peace and good-will of Ireland towards this country, or of
greater importance than the Bill we are now discussing.—
(Hear, hear.) I must, however, observe that I entirely agree
with her elnjesty's Government in thinking that, as they
conceived the rights of the Crown were affected by what
is termed Papal aggression, and as they resolved to legislate
upon the subject, it was impossible to deal separately with
the case of Great Britain as contradistinguished with Ireland.
—(Hear, hear.) I think with them, that if there be
legislation of this kind attempted, it should be legislation
embracing the whole of the United Kingdom, and a great
additional objection to the argument of legislation being the
way to meet this aggression, is that it is absolutely neces-
sary, if ysu legislate for England, to embrace Ireland, and
to deal with the whole of the United Kingdom.—( Hear.)
And what falls from one of the law officers of the Crown
who has addressed you? It is quite clear from what the
Solicitor-General has said, that circumstances that arose in
Ireland have wore to do with this Bill than even the arrival
of Cardinal Wiseman or the intention to found a hierarchy
in place of vicars-apostolic.—(Hear, hear.) What was the
circumstance on which he dwelt? He was pleased to de•
signate the prelate who is at the head of the Roman Catholic
Church in Ireland, the Catholic Archbishop of Armagh, as
an Italian monk.—(Hear, hear.) And not satisfied with that,
he dwelt upon the Synod of Thurles as one of the princi-
pal reasons why this legislation was necessary; and what
was the statement he made? He says, this Bill is effectual
for the purpose of doing what? These are his words; he
says, " They could not have an episcopal jurisdiction—they
could not introduce the canon law—they would not as-
semble any synod to oppose the decrees of the Imperial
Parliament, unless they were bishops with territorial
titles, and that this Bill effectually prohibited."-- (Hear,
hear.) Observe, by striking at territorial titles, it is the in-
tention of this Bill to put down the organized episcopacy of
Ireland, and to deprive them of the power of meeting in
synod ; and the reason assigned is, that the Pope, the spiri-
tual head of their Church, selected as a person to place at the
head of the prelacy a clergyman of the Church of Rome—
a person whom he designates as an Italian monk—(Hear.)
If this Bill be useful for any purpose, 1 doubt the law of the
Solicitor-General or his description being accurate; but if his
description be accurate, then I say all that was done in 1829,
a 'mating the Roman Catholics to an equality of civil rights,
is rendered as nothing by the blow you now direct against
them. For 200 years—long before Catholic emancipation -
there was an organized episcopacy in Ireland ; the canon law
did prevail in Ireland, unmatilated and undisturbed by our
legislation, and, whether designated synods or not, the Ca-
tholic prelates of Ireland did assemble, and meet, and come to
conclusions on all matters spiritually affecting the people of
that country, and published their decisions, which had the
effect of synodical meetings. And if the purpose of that Bill
be what the Solicitor-General said, and its effect what I be-
lieve he is wrong in stating it to be, then most undoubtedly
the blow you are going to inflict is infinitely more severe
than any fetter on the freedom of Roman Catholic worship
in Ireland that existed under the penal code, and previous to
the year 1829.—(Hear, hear.) I must be permitted since
this question presents itself to my mind in this aspect, and
with reference to what will be the bearing of this measure
upon Ireland, shortly to retrace our policy with regard to
hat country ; and, Sir, I have lately been struck by reading
a publication which within a short period has been given to
the world. I mean the correspor dence cf the late Lord
Londonderry, better known by the name of Lord Castlereagh.
It contains letters written at the time of the Union, and
there is amongst them a secret letter written by Lord Corn-
wallis to Lord Castlereagh in 1800; which appears to me to
be full of wisdom and of warning.—(Hear, hear.) He was a
man distinguished for the great services he had rendered to
his country in every part of the world, and at the time of
writing the letter he had been just discharging the duty
of suppressing by force of arms a rebellion in Ireland.—
( near.) He had succeeded, and it was to be expected that,
flushed by a contest of that kind, and recent successes,
he would have been the very last to have councillerl
what is termed concessions to the Roman Catholics of
Ireland • but what was the lesson of wisdom which he
taught? He said that if the Government of this country
at that time promoted the union, it should be promoted as
the means of effecting a great end, and that great end was
the emancipation of the Roman Catholics, the admission of
LLoorrdd
Cornwallis,
laymen to perfect equality of civil rights, and some endow-
Grenville
on
this
a s did
endow-
ment for the Roman Catholic!.--(Hear, bear.) Mr. Pitt and
se
tl
lye coincidedrea
hwho
ion opinionNras
hi with
Lord enrdCtiar Castlereagh,
Ire-
land. Lord Clare gave an unwilling consent to the union ;
he came over to England and used his influence with Mr.
Pitt to throw aside the condition of immediate emancipation
and endowment, and made his support of the union con-
ditional on the surrender of that portion of the policy
of the Government.-- (Hear, hear.) Lord Loughborough
obtained the ear of the King, and when his consent was
asked to that portion of the policy, King George 111.
positively refused his consent to emancipation.—(llear
hear.) Lord Cornwallis was unwilling to remain
in Ireland under such circumstances, but he wrote
a letter to Lord Castlereagh—a secret letter—and,
with the permission of the House, I will read it: -
" Holding Ireland on our present tenure, how are we to make
head against all Europe leagued for our destruction? Lord
Kilwarden again spoke to Littlehales on the subject, and told
him that the Catholics placed their trust in me, and in-
sinuated that his object of my remaining in the Government
Ater the completion of the u son, was to carry the point for
them. Whatever Lord Loughborough's opinion may be of
the practicability of concession, he will, in a short time, or I
am much mistaken, find it still more impracticable to resist."
- Vol. 3, p. 418. "Timid men will not venture on any
change of system, however wise and just, unless their fears
are alarmed by pressing dangers."—Vol. 4, p. 20. "The
evil genius of Britain is the proscription of the Catholics."—
Vol. 4, p. 13. Now, this is the course ; but perhaps the
House will allow me to refer to a subject of a more lively
though not a less instructive character. Lord Cornwallis
failed in being able to obtain any solid advantage for the
Roman Catholics; but failing in that, he did not with-
hold from them that which was courteous if not agreeable
to their feelings. Now, here is a letter written
in very familiar terms, by Mr. Cooke, then the
under-secretary of Lord Castlereagh. He says:—
"We had a dinner at the Castle yesterday. The Titular
Primate of all Ireland, the Titular Primate of Ireland, the
President of Maynooth (and other noblemen and gentlemen
whom he names) formed part of the company." He adds,
"We were all very cheerful and pleasant, and the Lord-
Lieutenant made all the play."— (Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Now, he did not hesitate to show them courtesies, and that
not by the exhibition of vice-regal splea fours, but by in-
viting them to the Castle, and giving them their designa-
tions of" titular primate of all Ireland," and " titular primate
of Ireland." -Now, Lord Granville writes also to Lord Cas-
tlereagh, and he says, " to neglect the Catholic clergy, or to
depresstheri them in their station, or lessen their influence with
flocks, must, I think, while so large a portion of the
Irish
nation profess the Catholic religion, be the very reverse
of wisdom."---t Hear.) Bat, notwithstanding all these warn-
ings, until 1829 no concession was made to the Roman Ca-
tholics. Now, what happened in 1829? Why, "the Con-
queror of a hundred battles," the firmest man in all the world
—the firmest in resistance where a senseof t
duty compelled
him to resist—the Duke of W 11. e ington—(Cheers)—he, in
concert with Sir R. Peel and Lord Lyndhurst, who had been
the greatest opponents of concession on principles which they
never hesitated to avow, and which they defended in Parlia-
ment with the greatest ability, without any change of
opinion, yielded reluctantly to an overwhelming
necessity,
and made this concession at last, which Lord Cornwallis and
Mr. Pitt had wisely intendei to make at the time of the
union. (Cheers.) Now, was this done partially or hesitat-
ingly by those eminent persons? It was my good fortune to
be associated with the Duke of Wellington, Lord Lyndhurst,
and Sir Robert Peel on the first occasion on which they really
resumed and enjoyed power after the concession had been
made. Did they ever hesitate to give effect in its broadest
sense to the new policy which circumstances had compelled
them to adopt? Some one said on a former occasion that the
tenderness of Sir Robert Peel's Government in matters re-
lating to religion was ever shown to the Catholics. I don't
think the Protestant Dissenters can be so ungrateful as to
forget some of the concessions that were made,;to them. The
Dissenters Chapel Act cannot be forgotten; it ought not to
be forgotten, because it was the occasion of the memorable
speech of my late lamented friend, Sir W. Follett, which
was the noblest effort of Parliamentary oratory he ever
made, and it was his greatest and last.—(Hear, himr.)
But with respect to the Catholics, that was the policy of
the' Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel. Did they
cast a longing eye towards the rev val of the civil code ?
What was the Bequests Act? It indicated pretty plainly
their desire to conciliate the feelings of the Catholics, so far
as w. s consistent with the maintenance of the Established
Church in that country. But this is not the whole case. What
was the conduct of Lord Lyndhurst, the Lord Chancellor of
that Government, acting with the full concurrence of the
Cabinet, and with the concurrence of Lord Stanley? kid
he not propose in the House of Lords the entire repeal of the
statute of Elizabeth which prohibited the receipt in this
country of bulls from Rome? The Bill came down to this
House, indeed, in a state somewhat anomalous, I admit: we
Proposed the entire repeal of the statute; the House of
Lords consented to the repeal of the penalties, but left the
offence, without the penalties, still standing in the statute.
Now, this evening, when the House was not, so full, the Hon.
Member for Cork county (Dr. Power) referred to what passed
in 1829, when this particular penalty was inserted in the Relief
Act, which this Bill now seeks to extend, and said an impor-
tant proceeding took place iu the House of Lords in Commit-
, tee with respect to that Bill. The clause imposing a penalty of
104 f.. Pima_ the Milumptio of title dexiyed from boo oval-

pied by prelates of the Established Church was proposed by
the Duke of Wellington ; and when it was so proposed by
him, he stated expressly thst be did not tender it as any se-
curity whatever for the Established Church. I will read
you hie words. He said, "It is certainly no security; but
it will give satisfaction to the United Church of England and
Ireland." Now there is a moat remarkable circumstance to
which the Hon. Member for Cork referred. In 1791, the
Irish Parliament took a course exactly similar to that which
her Majesty's Government now called upon us to take, and
passed a law to prohibit the assumption of any such titles in
Ireland. How lone did that remain in the statute-book?,
Let the House observe the period when it was passed;
it was in 1792, when we were still at peace with France.
-(Hear, hear.) In 1793 circumstances were changed;
Louis XVI. was beheaded, and we were at war with re-
volutionary France. The right of voting was given to
Roman Catholics in Ireland, and the Act of 1792, prohi-
biting the assumption of those titles, was summarily re-
pealed. - (Hear, hear.) But the Duke goes on, and he says,
" This was one of the incidents which made it so difficult to
legislate on this subject at all." Her Majesty's Ministers
are now well aware, I dare say, how prophetic that warn-
ing was.-(A laugh.) He save, "He was aware this clause
gave no security to the Established Church, nor benefited it
in any way ; but it was inserted to give satisfaction to those
who were disturbed by the assumption of those titles by the
Catholic clergy." The Bishop of Durham, a moat distin-
guished prelate of the Established Church and the Divinity
Professor at Oxford, repudiated this clause altogether; he
says he does not desire it as any security; it is no: security
whatever, and he does not ask for it. And Lord Chief-Jus-
tice Tenterden tells you the clause would be inoperative, and
he proposed that which would be perfectly operatiie, namely
that, the acceptance of the title by whomsoever given, on
the part of a prelate should be made a misdemeanour. The
Duke said, "That would be perfectly operative ; but I must
resist this clause ; it would be a statutable recognition of the
power of appointment by usurpation, and to such an admis-
sion of usurpation I will not be a party. - (Hear, hear.) Now
again, I must take the liberty of repeating what was stated
by he Hon. Member for Cork as a remarkable circumstance.
Lord Malmsbury, who had been the strenuous opponent of
all concession to the Catholics, made a speech on that occa-
sion, which is an exact summary of the arguments on this
occasion ; he said, " I think the exclusion of Roman Catho-
lics from Parliament is a bond fide security, but Sem have
decided against that security;" and then he says, "the
clause about assuming titles is a joke, and worse
than a joke, for it will have the effect of pro-
ducing the very agitation which you are' seeking to
allay."-(Hear, hear.) Now it has been a dead letter, or
nearly so, in Ireland. Dr. M'Hale has somewhat. ostenta-
tiously, I had nearly said openly, transgressed that law. Lord
Lorton called on Lord Melbourne to institute a prosecution,
but Lord Melbourne, after deliberation, told Lord Lorton
that he was not prepared to incur the responsibility of di-
recting any such prosecution to be instituted.-(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of Wellington was present on that occasion-the
author of the only penalties which were needlessly inserted
in the Relief Act; and what did the Duke say? Did he
stimulate Lord Melbourne to proceed? Quite the contrary.
He joins in giving his entire approval of the prudence which
dictated the refusal of Lord Melbourne. - (Cheers.) Now,
in arguing this matter, it is necessary to observe, the distinc-
tion between the theological and legal part of the question,
and the spiritual and temporal. Now there is no` doubt-and
we, the Protestant part of this House, are nappnsed to such
an assumption of power-there is no doubt the Pope of
Rome has claimed spiritual jurisdiction over all baptized
souls within this realm. That is an assumption of the Pope
which bears date long prior to the Reformation, which was
not withdrawn at the Reformation, which ~has never been
abated, and that power of the Pope has existed undiminished
and unabated from the earliest times down to the present
moment. Now, I conceive that the exercise of this essential
power, whether it has been by vicars apostolic, as in Eng-
land, or by the intervention of a hierarchy,: as in Ire and,
where a hierarchy has existed without interruption for cen-
turies - (Hear, hear) - is a question of very secondary import-
ance. The question is-are you prepared fo'deal with the
pretension itself? and I say our forefathers Were wiser, and,
until I see you commit the error, I think yet will be wiser
too.- (Cheers.) It lies at the very root of the Roman Ca-
tholic religion ; and if you seek to combat that pretension,
you may strive to eradicate the religion, but you never can
succeed ; and if you attempt to eradicate it, away with such
a Bill as this- (Loud cheers)-you will have to recur to the
blood-stained code of Elizabeth.- (Hear, hear.) That code
signally failed, and so signally failed, that even in my time,
by the common consent of the greatest men in this House,
that code has been regarded as nothing else than a disgrace
to our country.-(Cheers.) Now, with regard to the confu-
sion between spiritual and temporal. lam of opinion that
from the earliest times there has been very great care and
very great skill shown in the statute law of this country, in
making a pointed and distinct definition hetween the spiri-
tual and temporal power of the Pope. The statutes of
provisors and prwmunire were not framed on a denial of
the spiritual supremacy of the Popes „and what is it
those statutes have done? They have paid, you shall
exercise your spiritual power witliottf interruption,
as far as the spiritual power 'goes;"'` but we will
check you with reference to the temporal, more particu-
larly with reference to the temporalities 'attached to the
bishoprics, and the civil effect of your spirit:dal excommuni-
cation. No attempt was ever made to daily, as an incident
of spiritual power, the right of the Pope teeappoint bishops.
But the statute more particularly says, if you shall appoint a
bishop, or translate a bishop without the consent of the
Crown, then the temporalities shall not follow your appoint •
ment. Further, without denying the spiritual effect of your
excommunications, we will tell you our courts of law shall
not be subsidiary to giving any civil effect to your excommu-
nication.-(Hear, hear.)-The appointment of bishops is an
incident of the spiritual supremacy of the Pope, and the ter-
ritorial, division of this country to give e iect to those sp-
pointment of bishops is a necessary and inevitable conse-
quence.-(hear, hear.) The statute of Richard 11. sought
to confine the spiritual power within narrow limits, but left
the utmost latitude to the Crown and the courts of law with
respect to the:civil rights. This statute of Richard 11. is a
remarkable statute. It is not a dead letter. It was framed
in Catholic times, when the Catholic religion was in the
plenitude of its power. In the reign of Henry VIII. Cardinal
SVolsey was indicted under that statute, and was convicted
by the Star Chamber. But since the Reformation has that
statute been a dead letter? In Ireland, in the reign of
James 1., so late as the year 1608, one Lalor, a vicar
apostolic, who exercised legantine power in Ulster, and
exceeded his authority, and trenched en the temporal
power, was indicted before a jury in Ireland, under the sta-
tute of Richard, and was convicted. Now, the Solicitor-
General put to us pointedly this question, He says,-"
want an answer to this question-Has the Roman Pontiff in
partitioning the realm of England into provinces and dio-
c sea, and establishing therein archbishops and bishops, and
organizing a hierarchy for the government thereof, invaded
the prerogative of the Crown, outraged the independence of
the country ; had those of her Majesty's subjects who had
lent themselves to the carrying out of this great scheme, and
stood by and abetted him, departed from that undivided al-
legiance they owe to their Sovereign, violated the law of the
land, and infringed the spirit of the Constitution ?" Now,
if they had trenched on the prerogative of the Crown-if
they had violated the law of the land-if they had touched
the regality-if they had entrenched on the realm of Eng-
land, then I say the statute of Richard 11. most unequivo-
cally applies.-(Cheers.) Our Roman Catholic ancestors de-
fended the regality of the Crown-(Beer, hear)-and de-
fended the rights and liberties of the subject ; and they did
provide remedies in those times which were found ade-
quate, and which, since the Reformation, in Ireland, by
the verdict of a jury, have been Made applicable. But
the language is remarkable in which the law officers
of the Crown assigned their reasons for preferring the
indictment under the statute of Richard in preference to
having recourse to the penal statutes of Elizabeth. The
preamble of the statute of Richard is in these words : -
" They, and all the liege commons of the realm, will stand
with our Lori the King, his said crown and his regality,
in all points to live and to die. .Prcemunire for purchasing
or pursuing bulls, &c., from Rome, which touch the K
in all cases attemined against him,
against him, his crown, his regality, er his realm." Now
his crown and regality,
the subject-matter of inquiry is one that ought to go to
a jury. It is for a jury to decide whether what has
been done touches the regality, touches the Crown, or
touches the realm.- (Loud cheers.) Now , what were the
reasons assigned by the law officers of the Crown on the
trial of Lalor for preferring the statute of Richard instead
of the statute of Elizabeth? They said 1. We made
choice to proceed upon a law made More than 200 years
past, when the King, the Lords, and Common!, which made
the laws, and the judges, which did interpret them, did for
the most, part follow the same opinions in religion which
were taught and held in the Court of Rome. 2.
These laws were made to uphold and maintain
the sovereignty of the King. the liberty of the people, the
undermined and utterly ruined by the usurpation of the
Bishop of Rome. For the Commons of England may be an
example unto all other subjects in the world in this, that
they have ever been tender and sensible of the wrongs offered
unto their kings, and have ever contended to uphold and
maintain their honour and sovereignty. Their faith and
loyalty have generally been such, as no
invaded, you
which you have
ya ancient laws, the
the
may
apply and bring
pretence of zeal or
common law, and the commonweal, which otherwise had been
religion could ever withdraw the greater part of the subjects
to submit themselves to a foreign yoke-ao, not when Po-
pery was in her height and exultation; whereof this Act
(16th of Richard II.), and divers others of the same kind,
are clear and manifest testimonies." -(Cheers.) Now, Sir,
I contend, to defend the sovereignty of the Crown, no new
laws whatever are necessary. - (Cheers.)
If that sove-
reignty
'
unexceptionable
your case before a jury; bat if you seek to Put
down, directly
or indirectly, the spiritual supremacy of the Court of Rome
h as been
law, in
v
over the Roman Catholic population of
England, then, in-
deed, you must embark in a fearful contest.-(Loud
cheers.) You must embark in that contest which disgraced
England by shedding the precious blood of More, which
has for centuries disturbed England, ruined Ireland, and
inflicted indelible disgrace on this unhapy realm.-(Loud
cheers.) The incident of the spiritual part of the supremacy
is the ri•
ght cf appointing bishops to spiritual jurisdiction,
and the division of this country into districts for the more
perfect exercise of that spiritual power nu also, at least
in Ireland, been co-extensive with the exercise of the
right itself, and both the common law and the canon of Eng-
land have always required that it should be limited by
places. Now, the Bishop of Rome claims as of right,
that
he is the Bishop of England, and is this a dormant right?
It is only directly as delegates from the Bishop of Rome,
that vicars apostolic have ever exercised any Power. - (Hear.)
You are jealous of the direct in,e ferenee of the spiritual
power of a foreign prince. Your object would naturally be
to remove the subjects of her Majesty from that direct in-
fldence of the ,Fope. Now the vicars apostolic are the
creatures of his will and the subjects of his caprice, and
from the vicars apostolic where is the appeal now? It
lies only to the Pope of Rome in person ; and
when you appeal from the vicars apostolic, the Pope is not
bound by the canon law, but may exercise his caprice in any
way whatsoever.-(Heer.) In Ireland the pope can exercise
no such power; and now, with regard to the bishops,
why the Pope in the very year of the Revolution (1688) di-
vided England into four districts ; and again, in 184 in he
added four other districts. (Hear, hear.)
What took place
in 1812? Did you not desire that the powers of vicars
apostolic should cease, and an organised hierarchy be estab-
lished in England as in Ireland? Why, sir, in 1812, Sir John
Cox Hiepieley, on the part of the British Government (the
Pope then being under the inimediete domination of Napo-
leon, our great enemy) stated that the British Government
desired the people of England should thus be emancipated
in one d'gret3 from the direct control of the Pope --(Hear,
hear)-and Sir John Cox Hippisley was employed by the
British Government to propose to the Pope that the vicars
apostolic should no longer exist, but that a regular organised
hierarchy should be established in England.-(Cheers and
loud cries of "Hear, hear.") For reasons erhicb, very
likely, were not at all favourable to England, the Pope de-
clined the proposition, preferring to keep the power more
completely in his hands through the vicars apostolic-(Hear,
hear)-so he refused to comply with the suggestion of
the British Government, under which a hierarchy might
have been established in England as in Ireland.-(Hear.)
Sir, I would now say a word as to my Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Oxford, of whom, however, I should be sorry to say
anything severe. He asked the other night, "Is it not mon-
strous that a foreign prince, such as the Pope, should exer-
cise a discretionary power as to what shall be the organisa-
tion A hierarchy to this country ?" Sir, with all submits-

sion to my Hon. Friend, if the spiritual head of the Roman
Catholic Church were to exercise that power, I know not in
what hands it can be vested.— (Hear, hear.) It is not denied
that it is, and may be an aggressive religion. My Noble
Friend (Lord Ashley) did not the other night deny that the
Catholic religion, on a fair level, had the right of endeavour-
ing to diffuse its doctrines, which are not only tolerated, but
et which the free exercise is guaranteed by legislation in this
country.—(Hear, hear.) But on the other hand, if it may
be an aggressive religion, surely it is, at all events, entitled
to be a defensive religion; and there may be a disposition to
make proselytes from it ; and is it then extraordinary that
the spiritual heads of the Church, who have a special
care and a special charge as to the providing for the
spiritual welfare of their Church, should be the persons to
exercise this discretionary power P—(Cries of " Hear.")
But then it is said that an incidental effect of establishing
this hierarchy will be to introduce the canon law. My an-
swer is, that in Ireland they have had that canon law for
hundreds of years, and I am not aware that, amidst all the
evils and sorrows of that unhappy country, any particular
importance has been attached to the canon law.—(Hear.)
Then, my Honourable Friend (Mr. P. Wood) put in another
proposition, that more surprised me still, that we, as the
main and Protestant Legislature, should provide for some
supposed and contingent evils which might arise to lay
members of the Catholic Church front the operation of the
canon law, as affecting them; and he gave us the maxim
si cutere tuo ut non alienum ladas —but lie knows there is
another legal maxim volenti non fit injuria.—(Hear, hear. )
What injury can there arise to laymen from the canon law?
Their obedience to it is voluntary; and the moment they
feel aggrieved by it they have only to withhold their obe-
dience to it. (Hear, hear.) This canon law is not recog-
nized by the law of England.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.") lu-
cidentally, indeed, in reference to trusts, the courts of equity
come across it ; and I am informed that the principle they
then apply to it is this—Does it trench on our law ? does
it violate any statute? is it at variance with the common
law ? - or, is it opposed to any rule of equity? If it be,
then away with it ! we have nothing to do with it. Buti fit do
not violate any of these principles, then we apply ourselves
to it in connexion with that which we consider the
will of the testator. This is the sj stem which we have
been following for years in Ireland, and ne evil has ever
arisen from it.—(Hear, bear.) And therefore why there
should be all this horror of the canon law in England, I
cannot conceive.— ( Hear, hear.) Sit, I would have gladly
here have dropped all further reference to the speech of the
Honourable Member for Oxford, but there was one observa-
tion of his which grieved me exceedingly, for anything
failing from him injurious to civil and religious liberty must,
considering his known attachment to it, be of great con-
sequence. He will allow me to say I remember his
venerable father, at whose side I fought in the great battle
of emancipation, in 1829. And I was therefore the more
astonished and grieved to hear those observations from
his lips. He told us that the Church of Rome was un-
changeable, and that, being unchangeable, her doctrines
were still as likely to be enforced as ever, and that they
might be carried to the extent of even occasionally de-
throning sovereigns, or relieving subjects and soldiers
from their oaths of allegiance! Why, Sir, these are the
battered remnants of the old arguments which I thought
had been cast aside as filthy rags.—(Loud cheers, and
cries of " Hear, hear.) When, in 1829, we consented to
admit Catholics to perfect equality of civil rights and power
we were culpable beyond measure in coming to that conclu-
sion if we believe one word of all this - (Loud cries of
" Hear, hear")—er thought that their allegiance was tainted,
and of that dangerous description which the Honourable
Member implied.—( Bear, hear.) But now, tir, as to these
territorial divisions. 'Have we no authority on the subject?
—authorities why we should consider them more harmless
than they are represented? Let me bring under the notice
of the House what a prelate of the English Church says of
them. Sir, I have seen with regret many of the addresses
of the prelates of the English Church amidst the excitement
of this period.—(Hear, hear.) I hold, however, in my hand
a most honourable exception—an address from the Bishop of
Norwich to his clergy. 1 quote him with the utmost plea-
sure, because I cordially respect his character, and think
that such sentiments, proceeding from him, are worthy of the
highest commendation.—(lfear, hear.) He says, speaking
of this Papal aggression, " this measure, apart from the man-
ner in which it has been attempted, and the language which
has been held officially and unofficially, and in certain well-
known principles of Romanism which give significancy to
what has been done—the measure itself is nothing of which
we have any right to complain consistently with our tolera-
tion of Romanism. An episcopal Church is not tolerated if
we interfere with its liberty to appoint bishops, to determine
their number and rank, and to bestow upon them any titles
provided they do not infringe on any existing rights (the
very expression used in the Act of 1829, of which he calls
for no extension at all). It might naturally have produced
more of amazement than indignation to hear a functionary
' of Rome declare that he governs counties of England as
ordinary thereof. Some territorial division, however, is ne-
cessary for every community of Christians in an episcopal
Churcb, and the term for a bishop's district is diocese."—
(Loud cheers and cries of "Hear, hear.") That is high

clerical authcrity ; the opinion of one of the most eminent
prelates of our Church, and it is against this Bill.— (Hear.)
Have we no high lay authority? I turn at once to the
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.—(llear. hear.) Has he not
recognised these territorial divisions? Has he not recog-
nised them most remarkably? I blame him not, because I
think the views which led him to write the letter I am
about to read were' quite consistent with his duty, and
in accordance with that policy which was transmitted to
him by his predecessors, and which he has most honour-
ably and faithfully carried out.—(Hear, hear.) But I
think somewhat imprudently he entrusted to Bishop
Nicholson a letter which was to be communicated to the Pope
at Rome ; and in that letter what are the terms in which he
speaks of those terr.torial ,divisions? He had submitted to
the bishops certain new regulations. for ,the government of
the Queen's Colleges in Ireland, and had hoped to have been
able by these regulations to remove the Papal objections to
these colleges. What are the provisions he had made for the
purpose of giving some influence to the hierarchy in Ireland
in the government of the colleges? He says—" The list of
visitors has not yet been settled, but I can haveno hesitation
in saying that it will include the Catholic archbishop of the
province and bishop of the diocese in which the college is
situated. As I entertain a profound veneration for the cha-
racter of the Pope, and implicitly rely on his upright judg-
ment, it gives me great pleasure now to ask your Grace
to submit these statutes to the consideration of his Holiness,
believing, as I do, it may be advantageously compared with
those of any similar institution in Europe." Here is a dis-
tinct recognition of these territorial divisions, " province"
and " diocese."—(Hear.) Thus then I have cited an autho-
rity f oin a prelate of the Established Church, and from the
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, in favour of these territorial di-
visions.—( Hear.) Have Ino other authority? What did the
Prime Minister say in 1848? The very question of the letter
to which I have refei red was brovight under the notice of the
House by Sir Robert Inglis ; and it is right I should remind
the House that at that time a question had also arisen whe-
ther there was not an intention at Rome to appoint Dr. Wise-
man Archbishop of Westminster; and the question was asked
by my Hon. Friend upon that point. The Noble Lord bad
denied all knowledge of any such intention, and said if his
consent were asked to that, he was not prepared to give it.
But as to those territorial divisions of England, I really do not
think any opinions can be stated so clealy on this subject
as in the words of the Noble Lord himself, which I am about
to read, representing as they do my own opinions exactly.
With regard to spiritual authority, whatever control is to be
obtained over the spiritual authority of the Pope, can only
be obtained by agreement for that end. You must give cer-
tain advantages to the Catholics, and then obtain from the
Pope certain advantages in return. Among which we may
stipulate that the Pope should not create any new dioceses
without the consent of the Queen. But, unless you have
an agreement, you are not in a position to have any such
advantage.—(Hear, hear) You may say you will have
nothing to do ith any arrangement of that kiwi, nor give
any authority to the Catholic religion in England. But then
you must leave the spiritual authority of the Pope utterly
unfettered.— (Hear.) You cannot bind the Pope's spiritual
influence unless you have some agreement. Although you
may prevent any spiritual authority from being exercised by
the Pope by law, there is no provision, no law my Hon.
Friend could frame which would deprive the Pope of that in-
ilsence which is exercised over the minds of the Catholics.
It is obvious that you cannot by any means prevent him
from communicating with the Catholics of this country.
You may try to prevent such communications from being
opened ; but I think it would be very foolish if you took any
means of vigour or energy to effect that purpose.—(llear,
hear.) If such communication be not open, it will be secret ;
and so long as there are Catholics in this country—and so
long as they acknowledge the Pope as the head of their
Church—you cannot prevent his having spiritual influ-
ence over those who belong to his Church.—(Loud cries
of " Hear, hear.") Sir, I could not possibly express my
own opinions be•ter than in the words of the Noble Lord.
Within five days of the period when the Noble Lord
exp• essed these opinions, the Attorney-General had to dis-
lmohpeeorassefi measure ed
diplomatic
lhaomi
mc hbaetti hhe a(rd:itcarot.
Pearson)one sbewfoi
trhe
tqheuee
limitt ioo iun heAl ene
par
House.prethhuaesditheopos sameed T
Rome,
by inserting the words " touching and concerning
international relations." The Solicitor-General oppssed
the introduction of these words on the ground that " if
those words were inserted in the Bill, in cases where three
was the least ingredient of a spiritual character it would be
injurious. Questions of a mixed character might arise,
though in the result they were of a temporal nature, and
in such no interference could take place. Suppese the
Pope introduced any regulation as to the Roman Catholics
of Canada, this qualification would prevent any interfer-
ence." Where, then, is the assault on the regality—where
is the attack on the rights and liberties of the subject—where
the attack on the prerogatives of royalty ?—(Cheers.) "As
the law now stands, the Pope may divide the country
into bi hoprics and archbishoprics—(Laughter)—and if
the amendment were agreed to he might do so still ; but if
we had free diplomatic relations with him, the British Go-
vernment might interfere to prevent such a division."—
(Cheers and laughter.) I have already told you it is doubt-
ful whether, by imputation at least, the first clause does not
carry fully into effect what in terms is enacted by the second
and third clauses. There is high legal authority for saying
that it does. (Hear, hear.) I have already put it to you
that if that be so the Government must withdraw their Bill.
But take it that it is not so is this a question in relation to
its effect upon the social condition of Ireland that can be left
in doubt ? (Loud cheers from the Irish Members.) I have
permission to read to the House a letter of Archbishop Mur-
ray's, which I will do. See if you should chance to make a
mistake what may be the effect on the whole social frame-
work of Irish society, so far an seven-eighths of the whole
population are concerned? Archbishop Murray says:—
Dublin, March 3, 1851.—Our Church is essentially
episcopal. Our sacred ministry could not be carried on
without priests, we could have no priests without
bishops, and no bishops but through the authority
of the Pope. It is his bnsiness not only to name
our bishops, but to point out the limits within which this
jurisdiction is to be circumscribed. The portion or surface
which contains the Catholic flock within those limits may be
called a district, or a see, or a bishopric, and the individual
appointed to ordain priests, and to carry on the other neces-
sary functions of the ministry therein, may be a vicar-
apostolic or a bishop in ordinary, with this difference, that
the former is removable at pleasure, the latter is permanent,
and therefore one step removed from the immediate action of
Papal influence. Except as Archbishop of Dublin I could
not ordain one of my priests. I could net give a parish, I
could not communicate with the Pope, I could not correspond
with foreign bishops, I could not give letters dimissory, or
ordination letters, or letters testimonial. I have laid my
hand on an oal letter of ordination, which was not for-
warded to the individual :for whom it was intended. It
was written in 1828. Were I to issue that letter nos! I
should be liable to a fine of 100/. Though in many
stances we were obliged to act in disobedience to this
to
just law, we knew that Government was not disposeds
act harshly towards us. The spirit which'; "gag firstte
the proposed law seems to be very different. tom
a p riest to
view of clause 2 it might be inferred that h
w ere
nust r
depend on such a document as I enclose, P
_aeppheaad
before a court of law as a layman ; h
a inarriagi whi:h
nerformed might, on that ground, be declared invalid; and a
discontented husband might take" to himself another wife
without the imputation of bigamy. This in regard to clause
2, and although it is true that the Government have con-
sented to withdraw clause 2, and I understand that proposi-
tion is to be resisted; but whether the clause stand or not, if
WY View be correct, 411 the evil consequences Foliated out by

Archbishop Murray will result even if you pass the Bill in its dente of the dead and the living. My Noble Friend says
amended form.-;Hear.) The Solicit(); General now declares that English Protestants are faithful and sincere, and he
that there has been an invasion of the prerogative of the i says he depends upon the warm attachment of the vast ma-
Crown and liberty of the subject.--(llear, hear.) I answer I jority of the people of this country to the Established
if what has been done is illegal why do you not appeal to the Church of England. He believes that attachment to be
courts of law?-(Cheers.) With respect to the division from the heart-that there may be a movement on the sur-
d the country into districts, we have seen for a long face, but that there is a deep strong under-current of affec-
time past arrangements made for ordaining priests and tion- ever flowing beneath. He believes that their religion
exercising spiritual jurisdiction by vicars-apostolic in is, written upon their hearts' core. But, if that be so, then
this country, and by a hierarchy in Ireland.-(Hear, there is no need or occasion in England far this Bill--
hear.) I am not aware that these territorial divisions (Hear, hear) - and nothing in Ireland to call for or justify
confer any temporal power. Since nonconformity has it.-(Bear, hear.) I feel such confidence in the wisdom ef
ceased to be illegal, and Anglican bishops of our own Parliament, that I hope confidently that this Bill will never
Church no longer exercise power over the whole of the in- pass into a law. The Right Hon. Baronet conclud -d his
habitants of their district, but over such only as are within speech amidst loud and prolonged cheers from all sides of
the pale of their own Church-there is no jealousy of episco- the Rouse.
pal interference on the part of nonconformists.-(Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL was received on his rising with a re-
My Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for the city of
Oxford (Mr. P. Wood) has let out the real truth. It is that newel of the cheering, and with ironical cheers from the Irish
there is a Roman Catholic bishop's throne established side by Members, which prevented his proceeding to address the
side with the throne of the Anglican bishop.-(Hear, bear.) House immediately. He said,-I hope the House will in-
That is the real reason of all this special anger.-(Hears dulge me while I make some observations in defence of the
hear.) And you say, besides, in enumerating your objet- present Bill-(Oh, oh! and cheers)-and in defence of the
tions, that there is something of a foreign influence govern-
ing this Roman Catholic Church. Now that has been dis- general principle which is contained in this Bill. However
cussed often and often before.-(Hear, hue.) It was this Bill may be described as insignificant, or however its
weighed well in the balance and found wanting, when we provisiens may be described as inefficacious, the House will
were passing the Emancipation Act.-(Cheers.) If, then, not have failed to observe that on one side and on the other
you question the political tendencies of the Roman Catholic there has been the greatest zeal and the greatest persever-
Church, and should come to a decision this night on the ance shown in commending or in blaming this Bill as fit or
grounds that the Church of England is in danger, I say ycu as unfit to be adopted. The House cannot but observe that
are undertaking legislation which will neither %satisfy that whatever the provisions of the Bill may be, when you ex-
doubt nor remove that danger. For if yon commence amine into details, there is some great principle involved,
thus, you must go further. You must reverse the principles some question upon which it behoves the Commons of Eng-
of the Toleration Act, you must repeal the Emancipation Act land deliberately to pronounce. Sir, that question is in my
itself, and then. 1 warn them, let the Dissenters of England view not less than this : -For many years since the restore-
lookno themselves.-(Cheers.) You must legislate, it you tion of Louis XVIII. the Court of Rome has endeavoured to
legislate at all, with that spirit, with that object, and with revive pretensions, to attempt domination, to restore supre-
that motive.-(Cheers.) But something is said vaguely macy, which many thought had been for ever abandoned.-
about synods. We are told that there is great danger from (Cheers.) And indeed for some time those efforts were at-
synods, and that, if we are wise, the synodical action of tended with so little success that they might have
the prelacy will be put an end to. Now, allow me to ask, been safely disregarded, if not treated with con-
are you quite clear, here, as to your interference? Since tempt.-(Loud cheers.) But of late years, and more
the legal and constitutional right of public meeting exists in especially since the democratic revolution which took place
Great Britain and Ireland, show me how you can prevent in the beginning of the year 184 S, men seeking for some
substantially the meeting of the hierarchy being organized, safety, for some plank by which they might escape in the
considering the spiritual character and power which would shipwreck, have resorted to the authority, the influeace. the
always surround such an assembly, with all the effect of in- power, and the name of the Church of Rome ; and the clergy
fluencing, to the utmost possible extent, the conduct of those of that church have seen in that circumstance an opportn-
who are the members of that church.-(Loud cries of pity of reviving powers which, if they are successfully
" Hear, hear.") My Noble Friend complained of the Synod claimed, must be fatal to the liberty of every country it
of Thurles, that it had interfered with the question of land- Europe.-(Loud cheers.) :Look at the change that has taken
lord and tenant, and that it had condemned the Irish col- place within the last two years. Look at the change, ad-
leges. I regret that this was so. Obviously no person vested to by the Honourable and Learned Member for Ox-
here oan feel a more lively interest in the success of these ford (Mr. P. Wood), and by my Noble Friend at
colleges than I do. But I say-and this was suggested in the head of foreign affairs, that has taken place
the admirable speech of my Hon. and Learned Friend the in Austria. You will see there a specimen and instance of
Member for Plymouth (Mr. Roundell Palmer)-a speech that which we allege, and of the abandonment of the se-
which I can bnt follow-that if there is to be any assem- curities which had been wisely formed-of an arrogation of
bling of the hierarchy of Ireland, and they are to discuss authority in the State which the State claimed to itself as
any subject whatever, I can see none more germane to indefeasible, You will see a surrender to the Church of
their functions, none more legitimately falling within Rome of that which had been carefully and pertinaciously
their supervision, than this question-is the people of Ireland withheld from her. Look to another instance, of which
to be educated in these colleges? - (Cheers.) But, then, the we had a valuable testimony the other night of one who
Roman Catholic prelacy and the Roman Catholic clergy in- bears a celebrated name, and who in that effect gave a proof
tervene in regard to subjects of a temporal nature. Well, an- of talent, and showed that he (Sir R. Peel) could relate to
swering this, I may say I think 1 remember, during the the House in the most vivid and expressive manner the ex-
Anti-Corn-law agitation, a meeting at Manchester of the perience he had himself obtained in another land.-(Cheers.)
Dissenting clergy- (Laud cheer: )-convened from every Look to those instances, and I think you will not fail to be
part of the United Kingdom. They came to resolutions at convinced that Europe and the friends of liberty, whether in
this meeting which were very important resolutions. They Germany or Italy or in any other parts of Europe, must now
were returned to this convention from their respective dis- be looking to you ' • and if after all the Protestant feeling
trirts as the delegates of the views of their respective con- which had been exhibited-if after the sense of indignation
gregations ; and their object was, in which they succceeded, which had been expressed, and when a Bill has been brought
to use their utmost influence against the existing laws in before the House by Government, professing to contain a re-
regard to the food of the people.-( Much cheering.) Then I sistance to aggression-professing to maintain the assertion
say that if clergymen are to meet, lam not prepared to le- of the supremacy of the Crown-the Bill should be at once
gislate for the purpose of imposing restrictions on their meet- rejected on the second reading, without any clear and definite
ing. I am satisfied that, if you are once embarked in this substitute, but merely some hints of resolutions to
course, you will be led step by step, whatever the Hon. and be passed hereafter-merely some vague suggestions
Learned Member for the city of Oxford (Mr. P. Wood) may of admiration of the feeling which had been exhibited and
contend to the contrary, until you have been induced to de- opposed to aggression-I think the friends of liberty through-
strov not only religious liberty, but civil liberty also.- out Europe will conclude that in addition to all other
(Cheers.) Now, I have treated this Bill, hitherto, as a real conquests, that in addition to all other triumphs, the Court
and formidable measure. But it has been changed, and it of Rome has obtained this great conquest, has obtained this
stands much mutilated from its original proportions. When most splendid triumph- the conquest and triumph over the
my Noble Friend at the head of the Government rose, in in- minds of the House of Commonsof England.-(Leud cheers.)
troducing this Bill, I listened to him with admiration, and The Right Hon. Baronet who spoke last, referring to many
with that respect which his talents always command; and celebrated persons who had been advocates of the Roman
as he proceeded, occupying such high ground, and laying Catholic claims, quoted as first and most memorable of them
his foundations so deep, I certainly trembled for the result, all the name of Grattan. I will refer also to the name of
and shuddered as I imagined what was to follow the great Grattan, because like him (Sir J. Graham) I look no Grat-
oration. I said to myself (tantcene anirnis calestibus ira?) tan as a man who had studied this question more deeply,
how is this to end-is he about to pro' ose the and as one who was not only most imeressive in urging the
repeal of the Act of Emancipation? Well, the speech was a claims of ou: Roman Catholic fellow-subjects to civil equa-
great speech ; the measure is comparatively small. Much lity and to seats in Parliament, but one who had studied the
disappointment ensued, anger excited ; and not many hours genius of Rome, and had studied the nature of both Ireland
had elapsed before the Attorney-General rose and assiduously and England. Now, what was Mr. Grattan's prediction on
endeavoured to magnify the measure, and to show that it was this question? In 1817 he said -
neither tolerant nor harmless, that it did strike at synodical " I beg to observe that there is now every reason to hope,
action, and that if it did not altogether destroy it, it did at and there is no reason to doubt, but that securities may be
all events tend to intercept, the power of granting bequests had. and such securities as the House will perhaps think
and beneficial interests in succession to the Roman Catholic desirable. There may be domestic nomination, there may
prelacy. In short, the Attorney-General made an elaborate be a veto, there may be both. . . . . The question is,
effort to demonstrate that it was generally a most formidable whether any securities whatever will be received. Let me
Bill. After this, too much being proved, the Government tell you why. These is a communication between the
became horrified at the spectre they themselves had raised; Pope and the Catholic clergy which must end either in an
they saw the consequences of their creation, and they fled, incorporation with the see of Rome, or a connexion with the
The Noble Lord, in justifying the retreat, said emphati- Government of England ; and if the latter be refused it will
tally, and said truly, and fortunate it is that there does be dangerous to the safety of England. You will have the
prevail in all cases this restriction upon statesmen-" When Catholic clergy incorporated with the see of Rome, and the
I ask to prohibit what I wish to prohibit lam compelled Catholic laity discorporated from the people of England."
not to allow what I do not wish to disturb." That is a Now, be it observed that Mr. Grattan, supported as he was
true description of a difficulty; and it is one of my on that occasion by the men of all parties of eminence in
principal reasons for objecting to legislation of this kind. this House-by Sir Samuel Remaly and Mr. Ponsonby, by
You are, no doubt, in a dilemma.-(Hear, hear.) If you Mr. Brougham, by Lord Althorp, Lord Castlereagh, and
cut down your measure to a minimum, you run a great Mr. Canning, and by many others who r, se afterwards to
danger; and though it may be supposed, it has been most great distinction, said, "You will have one of these two
unjustly supposed, that I have any feeling towards Rome, I things ; -you will either secure the domestic nomination of
say I should be ashamed to see the weighty legislative bishops and a veto in the han'is of the Crown, or, filling
power of this country brought down from its efficiency to that, you will see the whole Catholic clergy incorporated
inefficiency, and laid prostrate at the feet of Rome. On the with the See of Rome, and the Catholic laity discorpo-
other hand, if you seek to escape that, and to render your rated from the people of England." Sir, recent events
measure effective, then, I contend, if you do not fail, you will have shown that there was too much truth in Mr. Grat-
embark in a course of legislation which will be neither more tan's prediction. You have neither the domestic minims-
nor less than a struggle with the spiritual authority of Rome, tion of bishops, nor have you the veto in the hands of
until, as I said before, step by step you will be led to the the Crown. These were the securities proposed in 181 e;
very point you surrendered in 1829, and driven to the enact- they were not proposed in 1829; nd you have that now
ment of a penal code with all its restrictions. This, there- which did not exist in former times; instead of two very
fore, is the dilemma; impotence on your part is disgraceful; distinct bodies-n-mely, Roman Catholics who were Roman
and vigour, in my opinion, is dangerous I say dangerous, Catholics in religion, but who had no veneration for the Pope
distinctly ; I can ill dissemble it. I think that danger, as it as a temporal power, you have seen by the declarations of
relates to Ireland, is the danger of civil war. (Loud cries of the Duke of Norfolk, Lord Beaumont, and Lord Camoys,
" Hear," and "No, no.") I cannot retract the words; and is that those men are few indeed, who in these days will sepa-
that an empty threat? Look back to 1829. A tried and rate themselves from any pretensions of the Church of Rome
firm statesman, certainly the firmest man that, within -(Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers)-and who will not affect
our day, has been at the head of the Government of this those pretensions, whatever they may be.- (llear.) Now let
country, declared to the House of Lords deliberately that me again repeat to the House that this is the prediction of
he had seen more war abroad than any man then living, Mr. Grattan, the very man to whom my Right lion. Friend
seen all its horrors and triumphed in all its excesses, that of referred, and rightly, as the greatest authority who could be
all wars what was most to be dreaded was civil war; and he quoted on this occasion. Now, if that be true which lie pre-
put the alternative to the House of Lords, either make this dicted-that you have the Catholic clergy incorporated with
concession or prepare for that hideous alternative of civil the See of Rome, and that the Catholic laity are in a great
war.-(Cheers.) That, after all, is the question still. But, degree discorporated from the r eople of E 'gland, I say it be-
it is said, the feelings of the people of England hovos us to see whas. is the danger that we are now incurring,
have been outraged ; and the language used by the Pope and whether we can have any means of meeting that danger.
and by his servants has been offensive to English indepen- I cannot but say I have been greatly struck by the theories
deuce. I will not here follow the Hon. Member for the that have been propounded to the House on the subject of
city of Dublin (Mr. J. Reynolds) into any artistic comps- religious liberty.-(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member
ris; uof the phrases used by the bishops of the Roman Ca- for Plymouth, in hie most able speech, told us that it' you had
tholic Church, with the bishops of the Anglican Church. religious freedom you must allow to those who claim that
Assuredly the complaint as to the language used is some- freedom that which belonged to their own religion-to their
what superfluous. It is as if this were to happen-a parable own church; that if they had an ecclesiastical organization
somewhat apposite :-A labourer accidentally jostles me you must permit that ecclesiast cal organization to be com-
in the highway. I instantaneously turn round and pleted, and therefore you must allow, uncontradicted,
any-
knock him down. I knock his hat off and thing which belonged to the faith which those persons main-
trample it under foot. I roll it in the gutter. tained. Now, how fir does this pretension go ?- (Hear.)
I bespatter him with mu 1. I set the boys on Because the real question ie-which the Hon. and Learned
to host him and to pelt him ; and, out of breath, with Member did not touch upon-who is to decide what is cede-
anger and wine exertion, I lastly call on the police, and give siastical-what is spiritual in these matters ?- (Hear.) Are
biro iu charge for the offence he has committed against me. Roman ;:atholies, on the ground that it belongs to their eccle•
We have had acrimonious language here to-night with re- siastical arrangements, to make any assumption they please
spect to the Roman Catholic Church, and Hun. Gentlemen -to claim soy sway over this realm of England-(hear)--
who rise and express themselves in the heat of debate, may to claim any ;supremacy over the Queen of Englaud-( Hear,
have their excuses. But the prelates of the English Church hear)-ane are we to be satisfied by their saying, "This is
have used language of which great complaint has been made ecclesiastical - this belongs to our re ligien ?" - (Hear,
deliberately in addressing their respective clergy. I think hear.) Would the II( n and Learned Gentleman be satia-
they ought to remember that that religion which they so de- feed with any assertion thy might make in this respect
nounce is the religion, after all, of a great msj rity of Chris- with regard to spiritual and temporal matters? My
tendons. Eminent prelates ought, at least, not to forget that Right Hon. Friend seemed disposed to say that religion
it is the religion which tempered the genius of Fendon, is a matte: connected with spiritual concerns, and, there-
which warmed the eloquence of Massillon, which touched fore, it is a spiritual matter ix winch the State cannot in-
with fire the tongue of Bossuet, and which inspired the terfere with the proceedings of the Catholic clergy. Now
tolerant pea of Pascal.-(Cheers.) I trust that lam not suppose they should declare that in Ireland the National
trespassing too far on the attention of the House.-(En- Board of Education is dangerous to their faith, and that any
c uraging cheers.) I speak at this length only because it is perg n belonging either to the clergy or the laity who as-
necessary, in self-justification, to state freely and frankly all eisted in carrying that system into effect should be excom-
th ) reasons which have influenced me.-(Cheers.) Now, municated and deprived of the rites of religion, that being a
Sir, it will be remembered that I was one of these who matter entirely spiritual-or suppose they go a step
wholly objected to the appropriation clause. I did so for further, and say with regard to the police and military
the reason that I did not think it was either right or desn- that a person cannot remain in the police or military under
able, or practically politic, had there b: en no other higher a Sovereign who couutenances and sanctions such measures?
considerations, to strip the Protestant Church of Ireland of - (Cries of "Oh, oh," and cheers.) Hon. Members say
its property, merely with a view of endowing the Roman "Oh !" and I hear one say that that should not be al-
Catholic Church. And I will say now, whatever may have lowest ; but that is exactly what I expected, because it
been the policy if such an endowment at a former period, shows that you cannot rest satisfied with the assertion of the
that that opportunity has gone by.-(Hear.) You can be- Roman Catholic clergy that such a matter is spiritual or
stow upon them, the people of Ireland, but sight advantages ecclesiastical, but that you must judge for yourselves
in the shape of endowment of their clergy; but just in pro- whether it is Ell or not, and decide according to your judg-
portion as you cannot satisfy them in that respect., I think went-(Hear, hear)-and here another Hon. Member says
the Roman Catholic people of Ireland, whether laity or that cannot be done. Now, having lead somewhat of his-
clergy, if this be a matter of feeling, if it be reduced to a tory - not only of that history to which Hon. Gentlemen
question of feeling between them and the people of England, thought it wrong to refer-that tf the times of the disputes
t
are eetitled to very peculiar consideration. ( rhe Right Hon. between Catholics and Protestants-but the history of
Gentleman here proceeded to quote a passage from a letter of recent times-I must say that trusting to the modratiomnoosf
Knox to Lord Castlereagh, which he described as equal, the Sec of Rome as to the distinction between temporal and
indeed,e at the cor-
benwheeanvet.he It
tewcrase-
in eloquence, to anything from Burke, descriptive of spiritual is one of the worst securitiesgyou
the respective and relative positions of the Protestant only yesterday I was looking, cursornuy,
and Roman Catholic churches in Ireland. The Right Hon. respondence, about the year 1816
eeeilcing
of Naples, and the
letter spoke in so low a tone of voice while reading the tary of State of the Pope aandbie,ll
t quite wrong in refusing e
letter that we were only enabled to gather detached sen- King of Naples said,
yo"nlne'riain lands which you claim you
wi
eaecbere. oljp nap:
Buto fie
de dtsyeuomicauhpi
wasni r manse
ale ga
tmeabri
enadgt
opiniontt o nr ae
st
ofha
tences.) I believe that the Roman Catholic Church in Ire- tribute-in refusing
land, the " church of the vanquished," as described in the certainly you can hardly
letter I have quoted from, has a moral claim upon England, spiritual censures, because
ance ; and, if we were entirelyjurisdictionfarPapaldepend to
conception now. (Hear, hear.)
upon it
country.-t Cheers ) tow, as to the substance of the Bill. I trust the thwehehave
thouairvigteungai
anyzl
look first to the names on the back of it ; and sin I better we
satisfied with what I find here? What is the first name I that
Arid one lion. Member said, end my Right -
see? The name of Russell.-(Hear, hear.) Is this the Rus-
spoke last has said, among the rest, in referring011. Friend who
shoafllwhichat
to what ha
sell chosen by the city of London as the chain 'on of sell- spoke
lately done, that the language
whose of the Pope and of the
gious liberty ?- (Cheers and laughter.) The Russellthe „. pastoral is arrogant in the extreme, and needlessly offensive
name will go down to posterity as identitiA
well- to the people of England.-( Hear. ) Thatadmission
peal of the 'rest and Corporation Act, and who,
with
now to a certain extent; but the question is, whetheriana it is an
proved principles and still nobly dariogt,
121 S which still admission to the extent which is really required
by
striving to unrivet the last fetter of Pers„e7ttVe next? The the nat( Hear, hear.) Im t b h f
us eg t attention o my
hangs upon the Jews ?-(Cheers.) and cheers.) Is Right Lion. Friend, who, 1 a though no doubt he has studied
name of Grey. Who is he ?-(Laugfl;etintul
who sacrificed this question a good deal, seems, I
think, to have mistaken
this the nephew of that patriotic No 1
of his youth in some of the most points • H ) call
the flower material of it --( ear - must
the ambition of a life, and spent
principles of civil and religious his attention to what really is the character of this rescript of
the defence of the great tof the claims of the the Pope ; a the Dublin
I • 'D n e do so I must refer to A Writing r.
in the asser iTh
liberty, more especially _
es
e.) Right Hon. Gentle- Wiseman, in the Review, which I found referred to
Roman Catholics ?-( oud cheer
in s•)
eloquence, like him in his by Mr. Palmer in book the Church. He vs-
man is like him-like bini
in his brilliance ; and sadly " The ton sk
might add,e apostolic see, it is said, charges those who call them-
dotl him, I
ts
his name at the back of this Bill.- selves the archbishops' and bishops of the Church established
I regret to see - e too, of Russell is there-the hi England Ireland • h being intrudersb • favour of the
The nem , and with 3
(Hear, hear ) of civil and religious liberty.-(Hear.) .civil power into the sees of those realms; inasmuch as they
invariable advocate
not
well formed. It has been botched. 1 1 k osses-ion thereof in spite and
Besides this Bill ai. their predecessors too
trig chat
A 1 there is a reason fo th M f that see which,
r at. y to the detriment of the patriarchal rights o
-(Greet cheethg
on that bench opposite would not from " sage had been es-
Right lion. Friends -
be worthy of the name amid character of the friends of ercisen in the nomination or approbation of all metropolitans
civil and religious liberty if they were adepts in training and b shops. Up te the time of Henry VIII. this right was
cite re) -Ana it shows • by his etatute 25 Henry VIII.
tonal laws- (Loud - perfectly acquiesced in, when: . .
tonal skill in this clas of legislation ; and God forbid they e. 2 the nomination was reserved by letters missive to the
should ever become expert and dexterous in such a craft.- Kiug, ail the au horny of the apostolic see being set aside
(Renewed cheers.) My Noble Friend at the head of the
Government, in a late speech, refer.ed to his f. rmer allies, and admi ted of this apostolic see, and such assuitiption of a
friends, and compatriots- among them t m Grattan that power never admitted in any part of the Church, were clear in-
noble spirit fled to join with Fox, Canning, Wilberforce, and tringements of the canons, and constitute an act of twir-
-1 ask my Noble Friend, if in his conscience he really believes and intrusion which is null and void in all its con-
that potion
one of those men, who all cordially agreed in the prin- sequences."
ciple of the Emancipation Act afterwards passed, would have That is an assertion to this extent. Not noticing
approved of this Bill?-(Great cheers.) And if my Noble at present the historical fallacies contained in the statement,
Friend can say he thinks they would have so approved it, this is an assertion that that Act of Parliament of Henry
then I appeal from the dead to the living. Would Flunkct VIII. is null and void in all its consequences; that the
have voted for that Bill?-(Loud cheers.) Would Brougham Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the Bishops of London
have vote I for that Bill ?-(Cheers renewed.) Does Den- and Winchester, and the other bishops of this realm,
_ no longer
man, I ask, approve of this Bill ?-(Loud cheers.) I would exist, the appointments thereto being void. Upon this I°l-
- were here to answer that • (Ch rs
question.- ee . Then lows this rescript of the Pope, in which, after naming all
new archbishops, it is declared at the
there is the great historian of the revolutionary period, a man these n
end-
deeply imbued with Protestant principles-I ask, would decree thatour letters apostolical shall
" And we these .
Macaulay approve of this Bill? I have tried it by the eid• j never at any time be objected against or unpugnee, on pre-

tion to frame any code by which all the relations between
the See of Rome and the Crown of this country may be re-
gulated ; but this I say, that if that spirit which you have
seen lately be not checked—that if it be not checked by the
great display of Protestant and national feeling that has
been shown in this country—that if it be not checked by the
simple and mild enactments of Parliament—if further ag-
gressions should take place—if it be attempted, for
instance, to deprive the people of Ireland altogether
of the benefits of mixed education—(Hear, hear)—if
it be attempted to deprive Parliament of its power
in this respect, and if those who serve the Crown are to
be deterred by menaces with reference to their religious
consolations if they attempt to carry out the system of
mixed education which the Roman Catholics themselves
asked for but a few years ago—then, I do not deny that in
such a case other measures may be necessary.—(Hear,
hear.) And so likewise of similar aggressions. I differ alto-
gether from my Right Hon. Friend when he says that this
matter of education is one on which the Roman Catholic
clergy may proceed unchecked to any extremity they may
choose. I don't think that you would be right or that you
would be justified, having declared that you meant national
education in Ireland to proceed, in allowing spiritual wea-
pons to be employed for temporal purposes in such a manner
es to prevent the youth and children of Ireland from ac-
quiring secular knowledge, because the Roman Catholic
bishops chose to call it a part of spiritual instruction.—
(Hear.) I remember speaking with a very excellent and
mild bishop of the Roman Catholic Church who undertook
the superintendence of the Roman Catholics of London
not many years ago. Speaking to him on the subject of
granting aid from the Committee of Council to
Roman Catholic schools, I said, "We shall leave
your religious instruction entirely unfettered • we
shan't inquire what it is, or how it is given." His an-
swer was, "No doubt you intend to do so; but I don't
believe you know the extent to which we carry that term
religious instruction;' history, for example, the whole of
civil history, we comprehend under the term of religious in-
straction ;' and we should not be satisfied with any part of
the political or civil history of England being taught other-
wise than under the superintendence of the clergy of our own
Church."—(A laugh.) There was nothing arrogant or pre-
tending about that excellent man. This was merely a state-
ment of what the opinions and doctrines of his Church were,
—(Hear, hear) But I must say, if that doctrine were car-
ried to any extent, that with regard to civil matters, and to
matters of physical science, nothing could be taught to the
youth of Ireland except under the superintendence of the
clergy, that nothing could be more for the benefit of the
Roman Catholics themselves than that the State should step
in and say that it would not permit any such a system
to prevail. In this respect, as in all others, I believe that
if what Mr. Grattan predicted should in time fail, this
Bill would be no such great bar and security against such
evils, and that the whole question is not between Pro-
testants and Roman Catholics, but it is a question in one re-
spect between the Crown and the people of this country and
the Sae of Rome, but in another respect, it is a question as
regards the Roman Catholic laity, and an attempt to impose
upon it the favourite ultramontaine doctrine of Rome.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, I have observed that Gentlemen who
have opposed this Bill upon the ground that no legislation
whatever is required have entirely failed in making this dis-
tinction, t 1 ough it must be obvious and striking to every
one who has read any part of the history of Europe or of re-
ligious contests. My Right Hon. Friend referred to Bossuet
and other high authorities; and many of those high Roman
Catholic authorities of modern times, like our ancestors,
while they were men of strict and undoubted Roman
Catholic faith, were at the same time most spirited, most in-
dependent, most able, and most constant enemies of the
usurpation of the Court of Rome. Yet I conceive that the
Protestants who now speak upon this subject, do not take
the assertions of such men as Bossuet, or Pascal, but they
take all the assertions that came from the See of Rome,
which in former days, and down even to the present
day, have been'scouted by all the most able and most learned
of the Roman Catholics. They take all these, I say, as the
assertions of Roman Catholic doctrine, of Roman Catholic
faith, and of ecclesiastical discipline. I think when we
corns, as I am afraid we must come, to discuss these mat-
ters a good deal further, that this distinction cannot fail to
be made; and however it may have been obliterated for the
time I do feel confident that having passed the Act of 1829
we shall see that the spirit of the laity will revolt against
these pretensions.—(Hear.) Sir, I have been always of
opinion that it was not only for the benefit of the Roman
Catholics, but also for the security of the State, that the
concessions made in 18',.9 should be enacted by an Act of
Parliament ; but I not only thought that, but that they
should be carried out in spirit and in reality. For that
purpose I thought that the Roman Catholic people of Ireland
should have a large franchise allowed them, so that it
should be clear that they should have the power of choosing
their own representatives, and not at the dictation of
their Protestant landlords. I thought it necessary, like-
wise, in order to carry out the spirit of that Act, that Ro-
man Catholics should be chosen and named to civil offices

tence either of omission or of addition, or defect either of our
intention, or any other whatsoever ; but shallialways be valid
and in force, and shall take effect in all particulars, aed be
inviolably observed ; all general or special enactments, not-
withstanding, whether apostolic, or issued in synodal, pro-
vincial, and universal councils; notwithstanding also all
rights and privileges of the ancient sees of England."
—( Hear, hear.) Now the former declaration is upon Dr.
"Wiseman's authority alone, but no doubt authorised by the
See of Rome, and that is a declaration that our Protestant
archbishops and bishops do not exist.—( Hear.) This re-
script is a substitution of the Archbishop of Westminster, of
the Bishop of klouthwark and others, for the Bishops of the
Protestant Church, who are thus declared to have been null
and void and to be entirely abrogated and annulled.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, I ask, does this fairly come within the
scope of a foreign Sovereign ? My Right Hon. Friend an-
swered the question at once, as if he had been taught by Dr.
Wiseman himself—(A laugh)—as if he had been brought up
at the feet of his Eminence. That the Pope has no autho-
rity as a spiritual function for the appointment of all bishops
at all times is, I think, proved by various works, but by no
one more clearly than by Dr. Twiss, in his book on this
sub} ect, full of learning, and stated with great temper. I
think nothing is more clearly proved than this, that the cir-
cumscription of dioceses must be consented to by the sove-
reign authority, and that the appointment of bishops is not
spiritual but temporal. The consecration of bishops Dr. Twiss
fairly considers a spiritual matter; but that bishops can be
appointed without the consent of the sovereign authority, and
an express agreement that the Pope or some other autho-
rity shall have the power to appoint them, is what I think
,elf good authorities on thin subject would deny, and they
%mild deny it in common with the public law of Europe,
and in common with the practice of every country in Europe.
—(Hear.) Let any man who goes to Protestant countries—
let him refer to Prussia. Holland, or Saxony, which, though
it has a Catholic King, has a Protestant people, and he will
find in every one of them that the Royal authority would
be used against such an appointment, against any such a
circumscription of dioceses, and that it would not be per-
mitted. If that is the case, I ask you to look at the
nature of'this aggression. It is, as it struck me at the very
commencement, an assumption of power over the realm of
England at variance with the supremacy of the Crown, at
variance with the rights of its clergy, at variance with and
in contradiction of the independence of the nation. Some
Hon. Gentlemen say, let us have a resolution ; let it be in as
stringent terms as you please, deciding that there is no
right to assume such power, and that the Queen retains all
her temporal authority and spiritual supremacy as it is
by law established. That might be done, but I do not
know that it would be wise of Parliament to come to
resolutions which, when they were produced in a court of
justice, when a Roman Catholic clergyman appeared there as
Archbishop of Westminster, and another Roman Catholic
clergyman as Bishop of Birmingham, might be decided by
the presiding judge to be of no value in law—to be utterly
worthless, and to be a declaration which he, sitting
on the bench of justice, could pay no attention to. I
cannot advise the House to take a course by which I think
the dignity of Parliament would be compromised.—( Hear,
hear.) My Right Hon. Friend who last spoke goes to the
other extreme. He say.," If regality is attacked you have the
case of Lalor, in which regality was asserted. Why does not
the Attorney-General proceed according to the case of
Lalor?" My Right Hen. Friend hardly stated the case
against Lalor as it actually occurred. He says that Lalor,
having attempted to encroach upon the temporal privileges
of the Crown, was, far that attempt, indicted and convicted.
After that statement I must claim the indulgence of the
Howse while I state what was actually the case against
Lalor. The indictment was framed in the Court of
Queen's Bench in Ireland, and it charged Lalor that he
bad received a bull from the Court of Rome. giving him
authority, as vicar-general, prejudicial to the King's autho-
rity within the realm, and that, under pretext of such
vicar-generalship, he had exercised, by appointments to
benefices, in matrimonial causes, dispensations, and
other matters, jurisdiction appertaining to the episcopal office
to the detriment of the authority, dignity, and regality of the
Crown. On this indictment Lalor, after a consultation of
half an hour on the part of the jury, was found guilty, and I
believe sentenced. He was proceeded against under an Act
of Richard 11. He was proceeded against, in point of fact,
for having usurped episcopal jurisdiction ; not for doing any-
thing by direct means against the authority or temporal
power or legality of the Crown, but for exercising episcopal
jurisdiction, and the right appertaining to and vested in the
Cr .wu. By that statute of tiichard 11., after the enumera-
tiureof the offences comprehended under the usurpation of
the episcopal jurisdiction, it was declared that all persons
committing these offences should be put out of the King's
proten ion, should forfeit to the King their lands, tenements,
goods, and chattels, and be imprisoned during the pleasure
of the Crown. Now, it appears to me that very possibly
sortie of these new bishops thus appointed by the Pope may
have 'one those very things which Lalor was found guilty
of having done ; that in causes matrimonial, appoint-
ments to benefices, and various other matters
which appertain to the episcopal jurisdiction, they
have used the powers for which bishops are or-
dained. Now, I conceive that it would have been a
hard course on our parts, with such penalties before us—as-
suming we had got evidence—to have proceeded against Dr.
Wiseman, and have endeavoured to convict him under that
statute of Richard.—(Hear, hear.) Had we done so, what
would, indeed, have become of that religious liberty in which
we are charged with being wanting? Had we acted upon
that statute, by which Dr. Wiseman would have been de-
prived of his goods and chattels and have been imprisoned
during the pleasure of the Crown—would there not have
been an outcry that we were harshly resuscitating for a par-
ticular purpose ancient statutes, which, nut having been used
for two centuries, might be considered obsolete, and would
not the reproach as to the infringement of religious liberty
have been sent forth with ten times more vehemence than it
has been already?— (Hear.) We find that those Gentlemen
who have spoken on this subject, to the effect that some pub-
lic measures ought to have been taken, very much divided in
opinion as to what ought to have been done, have suggested
various courses which they conceive would have been
better than the- present Bill. Without going into all
their suggestions, let me submit one observation to the
Howse. Here is a point cn which there is hardly any dif
ference of opinion, that this Papal aggression itself is arro-
gant in the extreme.—(Hear, hear.) There has been no al-
ternative proposed to the course that we propose on which
there has been anything like a general agreement, or which
has been at all made out to have a clear and practical bear-
ing upon the case in hand. The course proposed by Lord
Stanley was that there should be a resolution, but likewise
that we should have an inquity with reference to future le-
gislation; and the Noble Lord manifests his belief that we
are not at present prepared for legislation on this seject, by
declaring that he thought a year, or perhaps two years,
might elapse before that legislation could be proceeded with.
(Hear, hear.) Now, although I might have preferred my
own course, yet had that other course been proposed by Lord
Stanley, as bead of the Government, I might have been ready
to aiopt it in deference to the authority of the Govern-
ment. I now put it to the House; you have one course be-
fore you— a course proposed by the Government—and there
is no other clear, definite course proposed as an alternative to
that course. Now is it not better, if you mean to do anything
at all against this aggression, to agree to the course proposed
by the Government—even though that course be not the
best possible—rather than reject it in the vague hope that
some other course may at some future period be proposed, to
which a fuller and more general assent may be accorded.—
( Hear, hear.) It has been said, among other matters, that
what is now proposed falls far short of that which I indi-
cated before Parliament met, and especially in that letter of
mine which has often been referred to—my letter to the
Bishop of Durham.—(Hear.) Sir, I am ready to abide by
all the sentiments contained in that letter.—(lronical cries of
" Hear, hear," and much counter cheering.) The letter has
been so often referred to by others, that I may be permitted
to refer to it myself.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The re-
presentations which have been made of that letter have been
greatly erroneous; it has been represented that in that letter
I did not look to public opinion for a cure of the evil com-
plained of, but to some stringent law ou the subject of this
p4p Al aggression. Now, what I said in the letter was this
. ,‘t• ,et describing the character of the aggression, I pro-

for which they were capable as freely as Protestants; and I
am persuaded that those things, under the present Adminis-
tration, have been fully carried out.—( Hear, hear.) We
passed last year an Act with respect to the franchise, and
from the time that I came into office, so far as my patronage
has been concerned, I have been. always anxious that Roman
Catholics should have a fair share of that to which their
abilities entitled them.—(Hear, hear.) Now, I think that a
great security, but it is upon this conditions that those
Roman Catholics are as free to act according to their own
opinion as Protestants would be in similar circumstances.
—(Hear, hear.) And if you find that Roman Catholics have
bees, like Sir Michael O'Loughlin, the Master of the Rolls,
and Sir Thomas Redington, loyal 'to the Crown and anxious
to do justice equally between all classes of her Majesty's
subjects, there can be no doubt but that rule of law
should prevail; but if you find, on the contrary, that
these Papal maxims have gained supremacy in Ireland,
and that Roman Catholics in office have been
threatened by the priests if they ;did their duty fairly,
it would oblige those Roman Catholics to leave the service of
the Crown, and to do that which would come to be a practi-
cal denial of that which the Act of 1829 gave them. (Hear,
hear.) My Right Hon. Friend has a very simple remedy
for that. He says if a Roman Catholic be threatened with a
spiritual sentence, such as the refusal of the sacrament, he
has only to leave the Roman Catholic community.—(A
laugh.) But it is very possible that his conscience may not
allow him to make that change; he may feel that the priest
exercises an oppression upon him, as did that unfortunate
man Count Santa Rosa, at Turin; but his faith in his reli-
gion might yet be totally unshaken; and if th'it be the case,
I say it is for the benefit of the Roman Catholics themselves
that you should assert the spiritual independence of this
country and should not encourage these assumptions of
power on the part of the Court of Rome.—( Hear, hear.)
My Right Honourable Friend at the conclusion of his
speech referred to men of eminence, some of whom were
departed and some of whom were still alive, who had fought
manfully and successfully in favour of Roman Catholic inde-
pendence. I was an humble follower of those men, and
though not taking part in the debates upon that subject in
this House, I constantly fought that battle in the country,
and gave my votes upon the same side. Sir, I regret not a
single vote that I then gave. I rejoice that I was in any
way instrumental in procuring religious liberty ; but if I
experience now that you have not taken those securities
which Mr. Grattan said you might take ; if I feel some
doubt—some suspicion— some apprehension—of the future
proceedings of the Court of Rome, I sin not without the au-
thority of many friends of freedom who expressed similar
fears and similar apprehensions. Ido not know that I need
be ashamed of being somewhat more liberal than Milton
and than Locke.— ( Hear, hear.) I do not know
that I need be ashamed of having somewhat of the tem-
per which belonged to Hampden and to Pym and to
all those great men who asserted the liberties of the
country in this House against the tyranny of Charles I. I
do not know that I need be ashamed of feeling somewhat
of those doubts and apprehensions which influenced the calm
and sober judgment of Lord Somers. Those men were the
friends of liberty, many of them writers in favour of liberty
of conscience and of toleration far beyond the opinions of
their age; but they felt, however, that the Roman Catholic
faith might be held as well as any other faith, conscientiously
and consistently with the enjoyment of power; still that
there was something in the character of the See of Rome
which made every friend of liberty jealous of its encroach-
ments aird fearful of the establishment of its power.—(Hear,
hear.) Sir, whatever I may have felt with regard to the
particular measures that might be adopted, I have always
maintained an opposition to the Roman Catholic supremacy.
I remain still of that mind ; and when I see that there are
so few of the Roman Catholic body who feel that this
aggression, made without the consent of the Crown and
against the will of the nation, is an aggression upon the
supremacy of the Crown and the independence of the people,
my apprehensions are not diminished, but increased by such
a temper. 'While I remain a friend to religious liberty, as I
trust I ever have been (as the Roman Catholics, at least,
ought to admit, frequent as have been the rebuffs that I have
met with in the course of popular elections because I have
said I was for the Roman Catholics)—anxious as I have
been, and ever shall be, for religious liberty, I will not con-
found that cause with the cause of Papal encroachment.—
(Cheers.) I believe that the liberties of England and the
liberties of Europe will be best promoted by its resistance.—
(General cheers. )
The debate was then adjourned until this day (Friday).
The Consolidated Fund (8,C00,0001) Bill was read a
second time ; and
The House adjourned at One o'clock.

.con if it shall appear that the Ministers and servants
isope in this country have not transgressed the law, I
snsuaded that we are strong enough to repel any out-
tacks, The liberty of Protestantism has been en-
n :England too long to allow of any successful attemi t
ose a foreign yoke upon our minds and consciences.
c•grt prince or potentate will be permitted to fasten his
r upon a nation which has so long and so nobly vindi-
s• trs rights to freedom of opinion civil, pslitical, and se-
lls:sous "
Now, this was a clear appeal not to the powers of the
law, either as they exist now, or as they might be enacted
to the purpose, but to that liberty of opinion, civil and reli-
gious, which this country has long enjoyed, and which I con-
siSersd to be the great antidote against the attempt to fa:ten
upon our consciences the yoke to which they had so long
been s'rangers.— (Cheers.) With regard to any measures to
be taken in the way of enactment, I think, Hon. Gentl men,
when I have read the words I used, will allow that they were
sufficiently guarded :—" Upon this subject, then, I will say
that the present state of the law shall be carefully examined,
and the propriety of adopting any proceedings with reference
to the recent assumption of power deliberately considered."
It does not even say that any proceedings at all were to be
taken ; it merely says that the propriety of taking any pro-
ceedings should be deliberately considered.—(Hear, hear.)
An • I say, therefore, that if at the meeting of Parliament
the Government had declared that they did not think it ne-
cesnry to introduce a Bill or to institute any preceedings
whether such a course would have been wise or unwise,
ill-!:liable or not, at all events it would have been com-
pisteiy consistent with the assertion in that letter—(Hear,
hear)—and yet it has been represented that this measure
fads far short of the intimations held out by me be-
fore the meeting of Parliament.— (Hear, hear.) I
say still that our main defence, our main security, consists
in that liberty of discussion, in that liberty of thought, in
than political freedom which we have so long enjoyed, and
which we will maintain—(Cheers)—but it does not follow
from this that it may not be necessary to have some legisla-
tive assertion of the supremacy of the Crown and the freedom
of the ss
knear.) It has always appeared to me, from
the very first, that if any measure was to be proposed, it
should be one of the mildest form, and that it would be far
better to fall somewhat short of what the occasion might
seem to justify, than to exceed, in any degree, the absolnfe
necessity of the case ; alita
after all I have heard—after the
proposal of sending
have been
to Civita Vecchia, and various
other proposalsthat Anc, made—l am still of the same
hear.)
one assertion, in particular,
ti h:ch has been much e
to upon, I wish to call the
assertion of the ffous
is
first a Iptuyhrseiers
third,
represent
containstse
o ifttahcaa
stt.
t:/hat
Some of the Gentlemen opposed toth°B
one of persecution, and say that the
within itself the enactments of the second and
the omission of these two makes no essential diffegreenntcleernine:hoef
Bill. Without entering into the questionfos
first
sunbjwecht to
when in Committee we shall hear enough rosin o
the long robe, I will put this to the liouseif this
clause in itself is so very persecuting how comes it for 21
years the Roman Catholics of Ireland have been
the law, without maaing scarce a murmur against it; that,
in point of fact, the only decided expression of opinion re-
specting it was that in 1830, of the Roman Catholic arch-
bishops and bishops, which expression was cne of acquies-
cence 2—(Hear, hear.) What this clause says is simply
that, our existing sees and dioceses shall be protected from
aggression, and that Roman Catholic clergymen shall not be
allowed to assume the title from any place or district in the
United Kingdom. For 21 years the Roman Catholic pre-
Istes and laity have been suffering under the dreadful perse-
cution which is discovered lurking under the clause, and
nevsr ones in the whole time have been aware of their sill-
We have heard of the gentleman who spoke prose
all his life and didn't know it; but only conceive a whole
people suffering all the martyrdombouti of persecution, and not
knowing anything a This shows that the Bill
at all. events, is not very oppressive. That questions may
arias with regard to the execution of this Bill if it become
law in England I cannot well doubt. I believe that that is
very likely to be the case, but my belief is that when the
Roman Catholics see that Parliament has agreed to this en-
s' meat they wall bow to the authority of Parliament and
sot attempt the assumption of those titles.—(Hear,
Less.) But,,Sir, other questions may arise, and I will not
cencssl from the Rouse any more than I have from myself,
that you may not by this Bill, meet every danger that we
may have to mom*, Non I hate it notiA coatenapla•

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.

THURSDAY, MARCH 20.
NOTICE OF MOTION.
Mr. Brotherton,—Returns of the aggregate number of
Stamps issued for Newspapers in the year 1850, in England
and Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively ; distinguish-
ing the number at one penny and at one halfpenny :
Showing the number of London Newspapers, the number
of Advertisements in them, the rate and amount of Adver-
tisement Duty paid by them in the year 1850:
And, similar Return as regards the English Provincial,
the Scotch, and the Irish Newspapers (in continuation of
Parliamentary Paper No. 203, of session 1850)—Friday,
March 21.

BILLINGSGATE MARKET.
The great increase of business at the above market having
rendered an enlargement necessary, and the altered nature
of the trade occasioned by the transit by rail instead of
water rendering the old Billingsgate dock comparatively
useless, the corporation of London determined to enclose and
appropriate that spot to the extension, and accordingly
during the past summer the foundation stone was laid of a
building, which is to be in the Italian style of architecture,
from the design of Mr. Bunning, the City architect.
The works have latterly, like the new gaol at Holloway,
been transferred from the original contractor to Mr. Jay, the
builder, under whom they have rapidly progressed.
A river wall of great strength formed of Hayter granite,
of the length of 165 feet, has been raised to the height i.f
about three; feet above the level of the Custom-house espla-
nade, upon which is being carried up the beautiful super-
structure of the river front (already advanced to the height
of one story), and which when complete, will display in the
csepneterteor of fish,anobleCampanile tower, 80 feet high, and at either
sideOrwaing, to b
colonnade,e each terminating with a handsome building
usedand
d oyster
st officeser
will be of red
m eftoerr
st.h e
The
erk
whole
ot hlee
of
this market,
piinle-
brick, with elegant granite and Portland stone
dressings,
A portion of the Rats over the colonnades and part of the
tower will be laid
aide
eh Claridge's Asphalte of Seyssel, and
the fronts on e4chpaunez,f the tower will exhibit stone pedes-
talspti:erced in elegant patterns.
and cast iron
in which faucbrear will comprise a spacious
The arrangements in
covered with a protecting roof of
paved area for the salesmen,
mereus lights of plate glass are
Including corregated iron,
space is appropriated for
introduced, and beneath a similar space
the sale of shell-fish, which is to
we sitahmecranes attaarlci
ventilated by means of a
Pump out the
this area the
wstaesatnet
vans ; beneath
whole depth front the river wall is about 200syyeleetott9 Thames-
street,
lwo
fhtye,r where
rangeis to beof erected
warehouses,i n t h
raising the fish which arrive by the
several arched colonnades, which form the approach to tab':
market.
It is expected that Mr. Jay will complete the river front
by July nezt, mg th: wh9lB DY the guzmir of 152.

HE R MA J E STY'S THEA T R E. the spiritual dominion of the POPE. In the course of his
First Appearance of Madlle. CAROLINE DUPREZ. argument, Mr. DRUMMOND, apostrophising Roman Ca-
The Nobility, Subscribers, and the Public are respectfully informed
that this Theatre will OPEN on SATURDAY, March 22, when will tholics, observed, " Your nunneries ar© prisons or bra
be performed Donizetti's Opera, entitled thels, and you may take your choice." This called up
LUCIA. DI LAMMERMOOR.
Lucia, ••..•• .• • • ...... • ,Madlle. Caroline Duprez The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY, who appealed to
(her first appearance in this country). the SPEAKER whether Mr. DRUMMOND had not trans
Enrico.. • • • • • • • ..... Signor Lorenzo.
Bidebent • • • • • • • • ........Signor Bianchi gressed the rules of order.
(his first appearance in this country). The SPEAKER decided in the negative, and
Arturo.... •• ...... . ..... ...Signor Romagnoli
(his first appearance in this eountry). Mr. DRUMMOND resumed his argument. In the
Normando ....... • —Signor Dai Fiorl.
Edgard° •• ..
To be followed by a new and original Ballet Ala Watteau, entitled Rome, Mr. DRUMMOND alluded to " the Virgin MART'S
L'ILE DES AMOURS.
Composed by M. Paul Taglloni, the Music by M. Nadaud, the milk," which was the prelude to a scene of great excite-
Scenery by Mr. C. Marshall, in which Madlle. Amalla Ferraris will amt.
appear. Mr. OTLAHERTY rose to order, as well as Mr. J.

Fleurette (Bergere), Mdlle. Amalia Ferraris.
Colin (son Fiancé), M. Charles.
Gregoire (Pere de Colin), M. di Mattia.
Blaise (Amoureux de Fleurette), 14. Ehrick.
Le Goverueur de Pile des Amours, M. Gosselin.
Mdlle. de Follanges (Grand Dame), Mme. Petit Stephan.
Ire Chef des Amours, Mdlle. Tedeschi,
2me Chef des Amours. Mdlle. Aussandon.
lin Maitre de Ceremonies, M. Venafra.
Astrologues (Conseiller do Goaverneur), M. Gouriet.
First Tableau, La Lo i Impossible. "Les Fiances," danse pasto-
rale. "Le Jeu de la Rose," pas de deux, par Mdlle. Amalia Fer-
raris and M. Charles. Le Goverueur Amoureux. Sa Deception.
Vengeance. La Proclamation.
Second Tableau, La Paysanne ala Cour. " Jadig et Aujourd'hui,"
Lutte de la Dance ROCCOC) et Moderns, scene executes par
Mdlle. Amalia Ferraris, Mme. Petit Stephan. et M. Gosselin.
Third Tableau, Les Amours Vengeurs. 0 anse du Chef des Amours,
Mdlle. Tedeschi. " Les Bergeres captivees par les Arnow' s," Balla-
Dille, par Mdlle. Amalia Ferraris, Mdlle. Tedeschi, et lea Dames du
Corps de Ballet. "Les Bergers Delaisses," final, par Mdlle.
Amalia Ferraris, Mdlle. Tedeschi, M. Charles, et Corps de Ballet.
Fourth Tableau, La Chasse aux Amours. " Le Pas dn Trebuchet,"
executee par Mdlle. Tedeschi, Mdlle. Aussandon, and M.
Darla. La Course aux Amours. Corame on se laisse
prendre dans ses filets. La Proclamatioa Abolie. Le Pardon.
Divertissement. Grand Pas de Deux, par Mdlle. Amalia Ferraris
and M. Charles, accompagnes par Mdlles. Soto, Emma, Lavinia,
Soldansky, Vanhollen, et Beale. Final General et Apotheose des
Amours.
Applications for Boxes, Stalls, and TiActs to be made at the Box-
office of the Theatre. Doors opened at Seven, the Opera to com-
mence at Half-past Seven o'clock.

THEATRE ROYAL, DRURY-LANE.
Lessee and Manager, Mr. James Anderson.
THIS EVENING
Will be presented by her Majesty's Servasts
A petite Comedy, entitled A MORNING CALL, in which Mr. J.
Anderson and Mrs. Nisbett will appear.
After which, a new grand Operatic Spectacle entitled AZAEL,
THE PRODIGAL. Reuben, Mr. Vandenhoff; Azael, Mr. J. Ander-
son ; Amenophis, Mr. Emery ; Bucharis. Mr. Cooper ; &dhoti. Mr.
Rafter; Jephtele, Miss F. Vining; Nette, Mrs. Walter Lacy; Lis,
idllo. Victorine Legrain (Premier Sujet da Opera de Paris), who
as been expressly engaged for the occasion, and will make her
appearance every evening.
SYNOPSIS OF SCENERY, INCIDENTS, &c.
ACT I.
INTERIOR of REUBEN'S TENT,
Opening at the Back to the Distant Desert—Sunset.
The Travellers—the Evening Repast—the Gift—Departure of Azael
with the Caravan for Memphis.
Camels of the Desert.
ACT 11.
Tice GREAT SQUARE of MEMPHIS.
Arrival of Azael.
Sacred Procession of Apia. The Offerings.
Lia, and Troop of Almees.
Greed Pas de Fascination by Madlle. Victorine Legrain.
:See ensemble by Madame Louise, Meddles. raiser, Julie, and
Coryphees.
The Gamester-False Diee—Azael's Prodigality—the Love Token
VIEW near MEMPHIS.
Reuben in search of his Son—the False Friend.
Interior of the TEMPLE of ISIS.
Orgie.
Grand Pas de Poignards by the Corypheos.
Azad recovers the Stolen Scarf—the Secret Spring—Azael surprised
in the Sacred Temple—the " Human Victim."
The Doom of the Prodigal.
ACT 111.
TENT of NEMROUD, the Camel Driver.
Arrival of Travellers—Degradation of the Prodigal- the Slave—the
False Friend—the Gift Restored—Despair of the Prodigal.
The Dream.
The VALE of AZAEL'S BIRTH.
The 'Tersest Festival—Aeael mourned as Dead—Return of the
Prodigal.
Appearance of the Spirit of the Desert.
To conclude with THE LOTTERY TICKET.

THEATRE ROYAL, HAYMARK.EI.
Mr. B. Webster, Sole Lessee and Manager, Old Brompten.
THIS EVENING,
Will be performed the Tragedy of MACBETH. Duncan, Mr.
Rogers ; Macbeth. Mr. J. W. Wallack ; Banqno, Mr. Howe ; Mac.
duff, Mr. J. Wallack; Lady Macbeth, Miss L. Addison, Hecate,
Miss P. Horton.
To be followed by a new ana original comic drama, called GOOD
FOR NOTHING. Tom Dibbles, Mr. Buckstone ; Harry Collier,
Mr. Howe ; Young Mr. Simpson, Mr. Clark ; Nan, Mrs. Fitzwilliam.

THEATRE ROYAL, ADELYIII,
Under the direction of Madame Celeste.
THIS EVENING,

I 'Will be performed GIRALDA.
After which a new Farce called THE SCHOOL FOR TIGERS ;
or, The Shilling Hop. Captain Kiteflyer, Mr. Boyce ; Major Stiff,
Mr. Freeborn ; Mr. Panels, Mr. Wright ; Alexander Panels, Miss
Chaplin ; Mr. Firkins, Mr. C. J. Smith ; Tom Crop, Miss Woolgar.
To be followed by JACK IN THE GREEN.
To conclude with THE MARRIED BACHELOR.

ROYAL PRINCESS'S THEATRE, OXFORD-STREET.
Under the Management of Mr. C. Real and Mr. Keeley.
THIS EVENING,
Will be performed a new and original Comedy entitled LOVE IN
MAZE. Characters by Messrs. C. Kean, Keeley, Wigan, Harley,
Addison, Meadows ; Mrs. Keeley, Mrs. Winstanley, and Mrs. C.
Sean.
To conclude with a new Melodrama, entitled PAULINE, in
which Mr. and Mrs. Charlee Kean will appear.

ROYAL LYCEUM THEATRE.
Under the Management of Madame Vettt(t.
Bole Lessee, Mr. Charles MatheWS.
THIS EVENING,
Will be performed
With SERVE HIM RIGHT.
Alter which an entirely new and original 'Fairy Extravaganza,
to be called KING CHARMING, or, the Blue Bird of Paradise.
Characters by Messrs. C Mathews, F. Matthews, Horncastle, Suter,
Bellingham, and Homier ; Mrs. Frank Matthews, Miss Ellis, Mrs.
C. Horn. Miss At. George, and Miss Martindale.

ROYAL OLYMPIC THEATRE.
Lessee and Manager, Mr. W. Perron.
THIS EV.ENLI,TO,

O'CONNELL, Mr. MooRE, and Mr. GRATTAN, who de-
sired that the worth might be taken down.
The SPEAKER decided that Mr. DRUMMOND, having
used no expression personally offensive to a Member or
disrespectful to the House, was not out of order ; hut
be, at the same time, expressed a hope that Members, in
discussing a question of so much delicacy, calculated to
produce so much excitement, would abstain from all ex-
pressions that might cause irritation.
A few conciliatory words from Mr. DRUMMOND re-
stored the House to some degree of calmness, and he con-
cluded his speech by declaring that the Bill was unjust
and uncalled for towards Ireland, and that a law must
be passed to prohibit the residence of Cardinals in Ire-
land, to avoid everything done under the canon law, and
to extend the Mortmsin Act for the protection of dying

Will be performed CHARLES KING.
After which SIXTUS THE FIFTH ; or, The Broken Vow.
To conclude with a new Ballet, called THE WHITE STATUE,
in which Madlle. Adele, Miss Lees, and Tom Mathews will appear.

ASTLEY'S ROYAL AMPHITHEATRE.
trader the Patronage of her Majesty and his Royal Richman
Prince Albert.
Proprietor and Manager, Mr. W. Batty.
Extraordinary series of attractive novelties.
THIS EVENING,
rke Grand new Spectacle of JOAN OF ARC; or the Maid of Or-
leans, with new and costly costumes.
Together with Batty's Splendid Scenes of the Circle.
To aoudad° with TEKELI ; or, The Siega of kiontgatx.
Box-office open from Eleven till Four.
Stage Manager, Mr. T. Thompson.

HIGH WATER Al LONDON BRIDGE
Tau DAT —Morning 2$ min. after 4 I Evening 48 min. after 4
To-Moasow—/Icrning 8 min. after 5 I Evening 29 min. after 5

THE WEATHER.—Sus Orslog, MARCH 21.
THERMOMETER, ni THE SHADE.
55—highest since noon yesterday.
39—lowest this morning and during the night.
52—this day, at noon. _ .

BAROMETRIC, 29.31.
Wrap S.W.—light breeze and suoshiny weather, with
occasional showers.

DAILY WEATHER TABLE.

State of the Wind and Weather at each of the following
places at Nine o'clock yesterday morning.—The stations
are arranged in order of latitude.
KINGSTOWN (Dumm)—Wind S.W., gentle breeze--

men.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM strongly condemned the language
which had been used by Mr. DRUMMOND. He admitted
that the conduct of the POPE and of Cardinal WISEMAN
had been arrogant and offensive, but be considered the
present measure uncalled for, more especially as it was
a penal enactment, and a reversal of our former policy.
The Bill, moreover, was a " botch," and he was not
surprised at it; such men as Lord JOHN RUSSELL, Sir
GEORGE Gnmr,and Sir JOHN Roldu.Ly could never be-
come adepts at framing penal enactments.

overcast.
PLYMOUTH—Wind S.W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
POOLE—Wind S., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
PORTSMOUTH—Wind S.E., gentle breeze—overcast.
BRIGHTON—Wind S.W., strong breeze--overcast.
SOUTHAMPTON—Wind S., strong breeze—overcast.
FOLKESTONE—Wind S.W., strong breeze—overcast.
TUNBRIDGE—W ind S.W., gentle breeze—overcast.
BASINGSTOKE—Wind S.W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
GREENWICH—Wind W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
SWLNDON —Wind S.W., light airs—partially cloudy.
COLCHESTER—Wind S.W., gentle breeze—heavy rain.
CAMBRIDGE—Wind S., gentle breeze— overcast.
BERMINGHAM W in d S.W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
PETERBOROUGH—CaIm—heavy rain.
YARMOUTH—Wind S., calm—heavy rain.
LYNN—Wind S.W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
CRIWR—Wind S.W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
CoNwAY—Wind S., strong breeze—partially cloudy.
HOLYHEAD—Wind S.S.W., strong breeze—showery.
LrvEurooL—Wind S.E., gentle breeze—cloudless.
LANCASTER—Wind S.E., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
WHITBY—Wind S.W., gentle breeze—principally clear.
DARLINGTON—Wind S.S.E., gentle breeze— cloudless.
Bnuwws—Wind S.E., gentle breeze—overcast.
The returns from the following places indicate the state of
he wind and weather on Wednesday morning at nine

Lord JOHN RIHISELI. defended the Bill, as necessary
fur the preservation of liberty from the encroachments
of the See of Rome, which, ever since 1815 had
been striving after aggrandisement, and which had
now mado common cause with the obscurantists and
absolutists of Europe, against the liberties of mankind.
He defended his celebrated Durham letter, and said
that the milder the measure was which could be
adopted to repel the aggression the better; but that
if further aggression should take place, other measures
might become necessary. He did not repent of any
single vote he bad ever given in favour of the civil and
religious ;equality of our Roman Catholic fellow-
subjects, and it was to secure their independence that
he was opposed to the encroachments of the See of
Rome.

The debate was then adjourned on the motion of
Mr. GRATTAN; and the House rose at One o'clock.

The debate on the Papal aggression was resumed
last evening, and in the early portion of it a scene
took place, which at one time bid fair to bring the
discussion to an abrupt termination, a scene rather
resembling those disgraceful riots which the repre-
sentatives of the parti-pretre are wont to get
up in the French Legislative Assembly, than
the usually decent and orderly proceedings
of a British House of Commons. Mr,
HENRY DRUMMOND, the eccentric Member for
Surrey, rose to address the House about nine
o'clock, and as might have been expected spoke his
mind somewhat plainly ; the Ultramontane Members
thereupon commenced a regular and organized system
of interruption, uttering such discordant sounds and
shrieks and roars, as are the usual preludes to
brandishing a shillelagb; thereupon Mr. DRUMMOND,
naturally irritated, gave utterance to certain ex-
pressions regarding nunneries and modern miracles,
which were certainly in the worst possible taste, on
which the Ultraniontanists rose, and shouted,
and shrieked, and some of them rushed at the Hon.
Member for Surrey, and threatened him with per-
sonal violence. A more outrageous scene of tumult
or one more disgraceful to all concerned in it was
never exhibited within the walls of any public as-
sembly. We trust that the scene of last evening
will operate as a lesson to the U ltramontane
, Members not again, as some of them did
the other day at the Romish meeting, to
set the example of uttering foul abuse. Gentlemen
who are so particularly this-skinned the mselves
should be more guarded in the language they
use with regard to others. The great
speeches of the night were those of Sir
JAMES GRAHAM and of Lord JOHN RUSSELL.
The Right Hon. Baronet admits that the conduct of
the POPE and of the Cardinal has been arrogant
and needlessly offensive; that it was hard for this
great Protestant community to pass it by in
silence and contempt, and that the Government
were bound in duty to assert the great Pro-
testant principles fixed at the Reformation, confirmed
at the Revolution and by the Act of Settlement, and
ratified by the solemn compacts at the union of
Scotland to England, and of Ireland to Great Bri-
ght Hon. Baronet calls upon this tain ;and yet the Right
great country to submit to this offensive arrogance,
and upon the Government to neglect their plain duty
irthcosucnottlrayn,daannddtwo
ivthiollarteelatnhde
Et
es:
eadn
idat
oo
ctoomthpeacQt ue:
at the unions, by abstaining from doing anything to
repel this aggression; aid to excuse the adoption of
such a scandalous and cowardly course of proceeding
he contents himself with conjuring up the bug-
bear of a civil war in Ireland. Now, Sir
JAMES GRAHAM may set his heart at rest
upon this subject ; there will be no civil war,
and our reason for giving bim this assurance is,
just because the outbreak of a civil war is threatened.
Men who intend to rebel never give notice of their
intention beforehand. It was the quiet, mild-spoken
FROST who attempted a Chartist outbreak, not the
mush-threatening orators of the Convention ; besides,
if we are to yield to threats of civil war, we shall be
bullied by the Ultraniontanists out of all our de-
fences, and at last have to fight for our bare lives.
Principiis obsta; if a stand is to be made it
must be made at once, at whatever cost, and therefore
are we rejoiced at the bold and manly speech
of Lord JOHN RUSSELL. He distinctly avowed
his continued adhesion to the principles laid
down in the Durham letter, and declared that
further aggressions should be met by further mea-
sures ; his allusion to the admirable speech of Sir
ROBERT PEEL, whose personal experience in Switzer-
land had taught him what Ultramontanism really is,
was in excellent taste, and his vindication of himself
r from the charge of illiberality was a noble specimen
of manly eloquence.
" If I feel some doubt," said the Noble Lord, " if I
feel some doubt—some suspicion—some apprehensien—
of the future proceedings of the Court of Rome, I am not
without the authority of many friends of freed?ns who
expressed similar fears and similar apprnhensions. I
do not know that I need be ashamed of being somewhat
more liberal than Milton and than Locke. I do
not know that I need be ashamed of having somewhat
of the temper which belonged to Hampden and to
PYtn and to all those great men who asserted the
liberties of the country in this House against
the tyranny of Charles I. Ido not know that I need
be ashamed of feeling somewhat of those doubts and
apprehensions which influenced the calm and sober
judgment of Lord Somers. Those men were the friends
of liberty, many of them writers in favour of liberty
of conscience and of toleration far beyond the opinions of
their age; but they felt, however, that although the Rom an
Catholic faith might be held as well as any other faith,
conscientiously and consistently with the enjoyment of
power, still that there was something in the character
of the,See of Rome which made every friend of liberty,
jealous of its encroachments and fearful of the establish-
ment of its power."
These are words worthy of a RUSSELL, and will
find a response in the breast of every friend of liberty
in every part of the world. Let the Noble
Lord act up to them—let him at once dismiss
from his Cabinet those timid, or worse than
timid colleagues who fetter bis free will ; let him bring
forward a bold and comprehensive measure for the de-
fence of our Protestant liberties against Papal tyranny,
and if upon such a measure be appeals to the
country, he will have such a majority to back him
as Minister has never bad of late years, and he will
be enabled to found one of the strongest Governments
that England his ever known.

o'clock
CORK —Wind-S.W., strong breeze—rain.
MuLuNGAR— Wind S., stiff breeze—rain.
CARLOW—Wind N.E., hard wind—rain.
PooLE—Wind S., strong breeze—scud, rain.
HASTINGS—Wind S W., gentle breeze overcast.
PrrEaßououGu—WindS.W.,gentiebreeze—partially cloudy
LYNN—Wind S.W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
LEEDS—Wind N., hard wind—partially cloudy.
Yoak—Wind N.W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
DARLINGTON—Wind W.S.W., strong breeze—cloudless.
Warra.H.Lvm—Wind W., gentle breeze—partially cloudy.
BEArrock—Wind S.W., gentle breeze—overcast.

It has been recorded by those who have explored
the Transpontane regions that no adequate concep-
tion can be entertained of the uproariousness of a
Victoria Theatre audience on a Boxing-night by any
person not actually present, however vivid may be
his imagination. Unable as we are to substantiate
the accuracy of this assertion from personal observa-
tion, we would nevertheless wager, with a feeling of
complete security, that neither that, nor any other
congregation of stentorian bellowers, could by possi-
bility bear away the palm of tumult from the Eastern
Couoties Railway sharebolders, at their meeting on

the 18th instant. Had not that meeting been held in
an upper apartment instead of one nearer to the
ground, all Bishopsgate• street would have flocked
around the portals of the London Tavern to ascer-
tain what fearful orgies were being enacted by a body
of gentlemen who had met ostensibly for the purpose of
discussing matters involving interests to the amount of
several millions. Shouts, yells, hurrahs, hisses,
hootings, and denunciations, issuing from hundreds
of unwearied throats, conspired to produce a din
which will be long remembered with a shudder by
some at least of those who had the mishap to be of
the auditory on that occasion. It is, however, to be
hoped that, for the sake of decency and common
sense, no scenes of a similar nature will be re-
enacted on any future day, and that the constituency
of so important a concern will not continue obsti-
nately blind to the pernicious consequence's which
must result from demeanour so disgraceful both to
their own respectability and to the true interests of
the company, which cannot fail to be seriously
damaged by having public feeling in this great com-
mercial metropolis outraged by such unparalleled
ebullitions of lamentable indecorum.

A new page has now been opened in the annals
of this railway. In accordance with the apophthegm '
" on revient toujours a ses premiers amours," the
talented Member for Maldon has been once more
borne into office amid the frantic enthusiasm of his
supporters. The Waddington dynasty is restored,
and the chosen favourite was yesterday unanimously
elected by the Board of Directors as their chairman.
Two directors of opposite policy have ere this sent in
their resignations, and their places will be, doubtless,
supplied by participators in the views of the present
administration. The ascendancy of the party has been
demonstrated, not merely by the majority of suffrages
obtained by the Chief himself; but by the re-election
of the two directors whose term of office had ex-
pired, and who were declared adherents of the new
phase of policy. Of these gentlemen, moreover, one
carried great weight, from the very large pecuniary
interest which he has in the concern, as well as from
his straightforwardness and judgment ; and the
other made assurance doubly sure by an ad
captandum oration of startling energy, on
Tuesday last. Mr. WADDINGTON now fills an
arduous and most prominent position in the railway
world. The acts of the new Board, whether for good
or for evil, will all be laid .at his door. Should he be
unable, within the next six months, to effect a pal-
pable saving in the expenditure—which may be ac-
complished, not by a cheese-paring economy, but by
a judicious examination into the details of the loco-
motive establishment, and a close but not illiberal at-
tention to the features of a sound and safe reductions
where it can be carried into effect without any dan-
gerous paring to the quick; and should he fail in
producing an improvement in the peculiar department
of his adoption, the traffic, he must make up his mind
to weather the re-awakened tempestuousness of the
shareholders as best he may. It will then be " con-
fusion worse confounded." A decent dividend will
likewise be longingly awaited, the more so after the
denial of that soothing distribution at the last half-
yearly meeting ; and the days are gone for ever
when there can be any tampering with traffic
aecounts, squaring the expenses to suit the dividend,
and not the dividend to suit the expenses. But if Mr.
WADDINGTON shall be found to devote his energies
and acknowledged abilities to ensure, as head of the
Executive, a spirit of unanimity and concord in its
councils, whereby the development of the resources
of the line shall be fostered, the dangers of competi-
tion amicably arranged, its revenues enhanced, and
the condition of a vast undertaking, hitherto sadly
mismanaged, materially exalted, then let all by-
gones be bygones, and all heartburnings be consigned
to oblivious repose in the " tomb of all the Capulets."
Those who were his most active opponents should,
without going to the extreme of reposing a blind and
implicit confidence in his cabinet, tender it a gene-
ral and generous support, bearing in mind, that al-
though the absence of legitimate control may inspire
a Directory with a ruinous self-sufficiency, it is ut-
terly impossible that any administrative body can be
conducted creditably or profitably, either as regards
itself or those whose interests it ought to shield and
superintend with a jealous affection, if it be obnoxious
on every occasion to suspicion, contumely, or factions
opposition.

LLOYD'S SHIPPIN G.-( THIS DAY.)
LONDON, banal 21.—Wind at noon S., light breeze, and
cloudy.
JAFFA, FEB. 26.—The French brig Etoile Distuers, was
stranded near St. Harem. on this coast, Feb. 24.

CALCUTTA, FEB. 7,- Flora Kerr, from the Clyde, arrived
here on the 3d F. b., with loss of bowsprit, foremast head,
foreyard, &c., entry/ter carried away, larboard bow cut down
nearly to the water's edge, and other damage, having been
in contact on the 23d Dec. in lat. 5 S., long. 85 E., with the
Carnatic, from this port; the latter did not receive any ma-
terial injury.
FALMOBTII, MARCH 20.—Wind S.W., strong breezes and
squally.— Arrd. Eliza Francis, Rio Grande. Off port, Ker-
man, Cape Hayti, and sailed for Copenhagen.
QUEENSTOWN, MARCH 19.—Wind S. to W.S.W.--Arrd.
Gipsy, Callao; St. Aleby, ditto.
TENBY, MARCH 18 —The Sally, of Cork, Cardiff to
Youghal, struck heavily this morning, at low water, on the
Patch, inside Caddy Island, it blowing hard from the N.W. ;
got off, and brought up in our roads, when she, sinking fast,
slipped cables, and brought up again in Tenby Pier, with
three feet water, having previously fouled another vessel, and
did considerable damage.
CHESTER, MARCH 19.—The Edwin schooner, of this port,
sailed from Nantes for Liverpool, about eight weeks since,
and has not since been heard of.

ULVERSTON, MARCH 19.—The Mary, hence to Poulton,
sank in Mo'combe tray, 17 March; crew saved.
LOWESTOFT, MARCH 19. The King William schooner, of
and for Boston, from Harwich, struck upon a rock, about five
miles off Aldborough, yesterday, and foundered ; crew saved
MALTA, MARCH 14.—The Rover, Constantinople to Cork•
put in here yesterday to)repair damages. •
DEAL, MARCH 20.—Wind S.W. to W.S.W., P.m., mode-
rate.—Arrd. a barque, New Zealand; George Metcalf, Bim-
lipatam ; G. H. Staman (No. 6,539, second distinguishing
pendant), Colomba.
BRISTOL, MARCH 20.—Wind W. to S.W. Arrd. Egbert,
Mauritius; James Daly, Africa.
LIVERPOOL. MARCH 20. Wind S.—Arrd. Italy, Charles-
ton ; Clipper, Picton. Sld. Lochmaben Castle, New I ork ;
Cordelia, alcutta ; Shand, ditto; Monarchy, ditto;
Standard, Boston. Off port, Sir John Beresford, Shanghae;
Ferris. Madras; Manilla, and Sea King.
RYE, Matto' 20.—The Melpomene brig, Cork to London,
was wrecked last night west side of Dungeness; cargo
washing along shore; pilot and three men saved.
WATERFORD, MARCH 19.—The John and Hannah, of and
from Shields for Cork, is on shore near ,Broom Hill, and likey
to become a total wreck ; crew saved.
SOUTHWOLD, MARCH 20.—The Naiad, of and from Hart-
lepool for Gravesend, and the Vesper, of and from Shields for
London, were in contact last evening. when the former lost
her mainmast and soon after sank; crew saved; the latter
lost her foremast.
PORT Filmy, Nov. 11. —The Albert left Circular Head
9th September for Melbourne, and has not since been
heard of.
PORTSMOUTH, MARCH 20.—Wind S.W. to W.S.W.—Off
port, Independence, New York.
ST. HELEN'S ROAD.—SId. Pyrenees, Swan River.
Cowas, MARCH 20.—Wind S.W.—Arrd. Johanna Oaths-
rinEsi,uNDzit
China,tAsmnpd, sasiilAedßcfogr H2oa.—mblvtlrignhd S.S.E.—Arrd. Barlow,.
SHIELDS, MARCH 20.—Wind N.—Sld. Employ, New York.
Moulmein. Sld. Sylph, New York.

_. .
PLYMOUTH, MARCH 20.—Arrd. Queen, Patagona.
YARMOUTH. MARCH 20.—The Elizabeth and Jane, of and
for Ipswich, from Sunderland, was fouled by the Clara Jane,
and lost bowsprit. The Vesper, of and from Shields, for Lon•
don, has been towed in with loss of foremast, from collision
with the Naiad, of Hartlepool, off Southwold.

EASTERN COUNTIES RAILWAY.--Mr. Waddington
was yesterday unanimously elected by the Board of Directors
Chairman of this company.

THE Refs or SARAwAx.—We notice in the list
of passengers from Alexandria, per Ripon, to Malta, the name
of his Excellency Raja Sir James Brooke, who will, we be-
lieve, land at that island to recruit his health before return-
ing to England via the Continent.
- -

1 -------
Mr. Alderman Salomons addressed the electors of
Greenwich on Tuesday, when he announced himself as a
candidate for the representation of that borough. The Hon.
Alderman pledged himself that, if returned, he would imme-
diately claim his right as a Jew to sit in the House of Com-
mons, arid Lake all the risks of a prosecution for so doing.
A meeting of the Protestant inhabitants of South-
wark was held, on Tuesday, at the Bridge-house Hotel, when
a petition was adopted praying Parliament to pass an effec-
tual Bill of protection against the aggressions of the papacy.
THE FATAL BOILER EXPLOSION AT STOCKPORT.;
The adjourned inquest was continued yesterday, but the
proceedings were confined to the identification of the bodies
already found. There is still one body missing,
in-
quest was further adjourned until it is found. The number
of lives lost is now ascertained to be 20. and the
NEW AMERICAN Brsuor.—The Rv.
Ruttledge has been elected Bishop of Florida, in F. 11.
connexion
with the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States onnexion
of America.
The death of Sir Stafford Henry Northcote,
Bart.,
and
j
Bart., at the venerable age of 89,
has
dust
estates by his
known. He is succeeded in histitle
grancson, S. H. Northcote, Esq.,
'Secretary to the Roy 4
Commission for conducting Great Exhibition.— Sher-
the
borne Journal.
~
THE CAmrturA•---The steam heel of Cambria
A which
American
was chartered by the owners of the Collins',
tLaievertpwoeollvoendathyes
steamers to take the bags of the Atlantic from Cork to New
York, NV.IB to leave the latetehrapsonrtoavig
Bth inst. As therefore abiene been for
d tosh enter the Mersey. She will bring
she is hourly expected
three days -later- eic-tteelligence from all parts of the lifted
States, and perhaps later intelligence from California, Mexico,
and the West Indies.
DEPARTURE OF THE QUEEN PROM OSBORNE.—
According to present arrangements the Court leaves Osborne
Monday for Buckingham Palace on morning next, after
luncheon,

~ -1 ..
z(.l-'5, er
at
v ‘;'41.4 ...
4.00 ,
.0 , k 111 ,
4..4;'
11
4, lb
• '
1 .."€Z:yi g A*17.%
Oro 1 -
„-• . t +111111111111,k,.,' ..4,• - -
Zz • 4 '`. eztil:,'
.'"l.,:e ~:::- e."-es —.-
• ‘‘,......r,, ,AIL-:'.
,_ 4 • MO'`4* ''''
2. "'" l ),! a r !pi4,1",.....47•!.!
k-
' p•