The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-09 00:00:00

measure for granting the relief which the emergency of
the case required.

Mr. O'CONNELL and Sir J. HOBHOUSE concurred in
the sentiments of the Hon. Member who had just spoken,
and expressed a hope that this measure would effectually
and finally grant that protection to the children labouring
in factories, which was so desirable, and se loudly called for.
Mr. JOHNSTONE said that the public had not heard
the evidence of both sides ; for, if a proper opportunity
had been given them, be knew manufacturers who would
have been enabled to give evidence which would have
satisfied the community that the state of some mills, at
least, was not so had as the whole bad been represented.
A❑ HON. MEMBER supported the prayer of the petition,
and said that the btre fact of children being obliged to
work ten hours a day was sufficient to justify the Le-
gislature in throwing its protection around those who thus
showed that they were not able to protect themselves.
Lord Viscount MORPETH begged to disclaim any idea
of imputing presumption to the Noble Lord, the Member
for Dorsetshire, in having promised to bring forward a
13,11 on this subject, although unconnected with a manu-
facturing district. He trusted that a measure would this
session be passed which would grant the greatest possible
protection to children, with the least possible injury to
trade.

Mr. T. ATTWOOD postponed his intended motion
relative to the distresses of the working classes, front the
113th February to the sth March.
Mr. RICHARDS presented a petition from Knares-
borough, in furtherance of the better observance of the Sab-
bath Day, and expressed a hope that whatever enactment
might be passed upon the subject, would be made to reach
the rich, as well as the poor.
An Hon. GENTLEMAN seconded the prayer of the pe-
tition, and concurred in the hope expressed in the prayer
of his Hon. Colleague (Mr. Richards).
Sir A. AGNEW begged to ask, whether the peti-
tioners complained of any particular local grievance.
Mr. RICHARDS said that they did not. The peti-
tion originated simply in that earnest desire the peti-
tioners must share with the rest of the community to wit-
ness such an observance of the Sabbath as would without
presumption entitle them to expect the Divine blessing
upon the people of these realtns.—(Hear.)
Admiral ADAM presented a similar petition from the
minister, elders, and congregation of Tillicoutry, in the
county of Clackmannan.
Sir THOMAS TROWBRIDGE gave notice that on
the 9th of March be would move fur a Select Committee
to inquire into the state of the laws and regulations
respecting pilotage, with a view to alter and amend the
same.

Mr. FINN (we believe) presented a petition from Over-
ton, in Leicestershire, for the better observance of the
Lord's Day.
Sir ANDREW AGNEW supported the prayer of the
petition, and expressed a hope that a Committee, similar
to that of last session, would be appointed to inquire into
the subject.
On the motion of Mr. LITTLETON, several of the
usual sessional orders respecting the appointment of
Committees upon private Bills were agreed to.
Petitions were presented complaining of undue returns
for the Boroughs of Weymouth, Bedford, and Hereford.
The first was ordered to be taken into consideration on
Thursday fortnight, the second on Tuesday the sth of
March, and the last on Thursday the 7th of March.
Mr. HUME moved for returns showing the particulars
of the charge, in the Army Estimates of 1832, of
33,6721. for the garrisons of Great Britain and Ire-
land, distinguishing the names and the military rank
of all persons who are in the receipt of more than
50/. a•year, together with an account of all the allow-
ances connected therewith, the value and salaries
of the offices the parties may hold, and the amount of
their pay or half-pay. The Honourable Member then
gave notice that, on the 15th inst., he would call the at-

tention of the House to the state of the public accounts,
and to the payments out of the Exchequer for the present
year.

Mr. DIXON gave notice that he would move for a
return of the charitable funds in such municipality through-
out England and Wales : the manner in which they had
been applied, and the mode in which they were now dis-
tributed.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know whether the Hon.
Member would have any objection to extend the notice
to Ireland also.

Mr. DIXON would have no objection, provided it were

not contrary to the rules of the House.
After a few words from one or two Members on a point
of farm, it was agreed that the notice of motion should
stand as originally given.
Mr. O'CONNELL then gave notice of a similar mo-
tion with respect to the charities in Ireland.
THE ADDRESS.

Mr. RUTH YEN—Sir, in resuming this debate, I can
assure the House that it is not my intention to trouble
it at such length as perhaps some of its Members m iy ex •
pect. I do, however, feel that it is a duty I owe to those
by whom I am sent here to express my sentiments
upon the subject of his INesty's speech.—(Hear, hear.)
Agreeing with the Hon. Member for Dublin in what he
has said, and in all the sentiments he has expressed, I
shall not take up time by dilating at length upon them,
but refer more particularly to what has been offered to
our consideration by the other side of the House. Sir,
we have been charged with having brought forward a
question which, in point of fact, is an attack
upon his Majesty's Ministers, but I will say we have been
unjustly charged in that respect, and if you reverse the
question you have then the plain and simple fact. The
King's speech conveys feelings towards Ireland which no
Irishman, who entertains the same feelings towards Ireland
that I do, can hear without dissatisfaction.—(Loud
cheers.) I do not attempt to throw any imputa-
tion on the gentleme❑ from my own country, who
differ from me in opinion—they do so honestly I have no
doubt, but I am sure with prejudiced minds.—(Hear,
bear.) On that ground they 'nay be excused ; but his
Majesty's Ministers have no such excuse. They know
but little of Ireland.—(Hear.) They ought to know more ;
but they will not take those means by which they might
obtain accurate information. Is it through policemen ?
Is it through placemen ?—ls it through the creatures of
Government who live in subordinate places—or, what is
worse, i❑ the expectation of places ? Is it to be expected
that through such polluted sources Englishmen will ever
have that plain and unvarnished character of Ireland,
which ought to be had by all impartial minds ?—(Hear.)
In former days it was the fashion to bring down to the
House a speech which was supposed to be the speech
of the King, but which was literally the speech of his
Ministers, arid accompanying that speech was an address
written by the very men who had concocted the speech.
That fashion, lam sorry to say, is still kept up. Is such
a course, 1 would ask, to be endured ? Are the Members
of this House bound to return an answer to such a speech
—a speech made by persons to forward their own political
views ? Such a course, I trust, will end in this Parliament,
by its determination not to vote any address except in
reference to a speech which came from the King himself.
I airs sorry, Sir, to see paragraphs in that speech which I
can characterise in no other manner but as a prelude to
civil war in Ireland ; and I was sorry to see a Nob!ernan
dressed in military costume, supporting, by all the means
in his power, the 'sentiments contained in that speech. I
also felt hurt, Sir, at the observations made by the Noble
Earl who moved the address, with reference to the Hun.
Member for Dublin. The Noble Lord's calling him a bird of
prey was most uncalled for and ill timed. Such words ought
not to have been used, as such observations were calculated
to produce recrimination. The Noble Earl also denounced

the Members for Ireland, as having projects for the dismem-
berment of Ireland. What, I would ask, bas justified any
person in making such an assertion, if every per-
son who has stood forward in the cause of Ireland
has expressed the strongest wish for the preservation
of the connection between the two countries.—(Hrar.)
Sir, I repeat it is unjust, and I would reprobate it in the
strongest language which Parliamentary usage will jus.
tify. But the " war to the death" argument is not, I
think, one which should be used, to men, and far less
to Irishmen. There are men in that country, Sir, who
have its cause dear at heart, and would show, if an
enemy invaded her shores, the counterpart of that ar-
gument in the Spanish proverb, and would give them " war
to the life." All that his Majesty's Government has done
in that country has aggravated rather than alleviated or
removed the grievances under which this unhappy coun-
try has so long laboured. Even their Tithe Bill of last
Session has given general dissatisfaction in every part of
the country. What has brought the Protestant establishment
in Ireland into contempt ? The conduct of the Government
has done it more effectually than twenty years' agitation
could have done. They have brought it into contempt—
they have forced it into collision not only with the feel-
ings of the people, but with their religion and the obvious
justice of the case. They have placed it in array against
the people, and in its present condition it cannot long
prolong its existence. It is well that we have bad

this three or four days debate, as it will give the
English people an opportunity of knowing the nature
of the projects which are intended to be pursued in
Ireland. When they have examined the nature of those
projects, the people of England will be able to say whether
they will enable his Majesty's Ministers to suspend trial
by Jury and the Habeas Corpus Act for their sakes. Let
not the House imagine, that the Government want these
extraordinary powers merely for the sake of imprisoning a

few unfortunate Whitefeet or Blackfeet. No; what I fear
is, that they wish to lay hands upon those who put
themselves forward in defence of their country, under
pretence of being disturbers of the public peace.
The unfortunate Lord Russell, who lost his head, fell a
victim to his own weakness, and to the viciousness of
those who entrapped him, and occasioned his fatal death.
With regard to the observations of the Right Hon. Se-
cretary in making personal distinctions, was it necessary
that he should single out an amiable character for panyge-
ric, when the country had chosen to elect another person,
equally amiable, but more suited to their views ? It was
not fair or honourable to make such distinctions, for the
Right Hon. Secretory ought to bow with respect to the
election of the people. Another objection with regard to
the repeal of the Union was, that his Hon. and Lem ned
Friend (Mr. O'Connell) would be the leader of the Irish
House of Commons. If his Hon. Friend bad the talent
to be so—if he had great talents for that office,
why should he not be placed in it ? The observations of
the Right Hon. Secretary upon the Irish Members were
exceedingly unfair; they only wished that all should ex-
hibit gentlemanly feelings, and such conduct only as ought
to be pursued. In the course of the debate, a Right Hon.
Gentleman, a former Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Grant) had
addressed the House on what he said he knew from his
own knowledge of Ireland and her distresses. That Right
lion. Gentleman knew but little of Ireland, for he was
a very short time there, and when he left office, there re-
mained 1,400 letters unopened in his desk. He stated, and
took credit to himself for so stating, that he voted for Ca-
tholic Emancipation; but it should be recollected that that
measure was one of state necessity, and one which the
Government of the day could not refuse. He entreated
Honourable Members to watch the signs of the times,
and to put a stop to that bodily torture which was
now going forward ; for there were many now
lying in jail without the proper formality of the law.
A barrister was now in Kilmainham gaol, and the suf•
ferings of Mr. Hodnett, now in Coils gaol, were most
disgraceful to those who caused them.—(Hear, hear.)
That gentleman had been most cruelly used, and the
feelings of himself and family abused and insulted.
In speaking of Sir Georee Bingham, he could not use
that language which he would du if that gentleman
was alone. If he were alone, he would not speak
of him disrespectfully. He imputed nothing improper to
him, but he imputed to the Judge who tried him
great criminality, so far as a misapplication of his power
went. When he (the Hon. Member) heard of the Judge
inflicting a fine of sixpence upon the Gallant Officer, and
expressing the most excruciating pai❑ at having to
do S 3, he could not but think that that Judge must
have forgotten that he bad tried many an individual for
comparatively trifling offences, and sent them to expiate
their offences on a scaffold. When he heard also of the
Judge immediately afterwards retiring into a private room
with one of the Jury, and the individual who had been
found guilty, he could not but think that such conduct
was extremely indecent, improper, and criminal.—(Hear.)
These were things that aggravated the people of Ireland,
and it was not to be expected that there would be found in
Ireland a criminal Court till the Jury were selected by ballot.
Others were agitators as well as the Hon. Gentleman, and
they were willing to take their share of the blame, and
therefore such words as had been used by the Right Hon.
Gentleman were not proper. It was unmanly of him to
use words, under the shelter of the Speaker, which he
could not do in another place. He might repeat
them a second time, but be might then learn a lesson
which would teach him not to do so a third time. Agi-
tation on the question of Reform was legitimate, accord-
ing to the creed of the Hon. Gent. opposite, and that
questio❑ was carried by Members from Ireland who owed
their election to that very agitation. And what
was the return they had got ? Why, the Attorney• G-
eneral, the Devil, and a parcel of his imps were let loose
upo❑ them fur the collection of tithe—that odious impost.
He considered that there was vast danger from the disorga-
nized state of Ireland, a condition of society there which
was mainly attributable to the extraordinary measures of
the present Government. With respect to the question
of repeal, it was one worthy of grave and serious con-
sideration, and, he would add, one of laborious in-
quiry, before they could expect peace for Ireland. The
people of Ireland should be convinced that this Imperial
Parliament would do justice to that country before they
would be satisfied with their• present condition. Ireland
should not be kept up as a military garrison, for if it were
it would be generally injurious to the empire. Why
was it that his Majesty's Ministers did not condescend
to state their measures of redress for the grievances of
Ireland ? A Reformed Parliament would at least expect
something more explanatory from a King's speech than the
public had been accustomed to in an unreformed Parlia-
ment. He was sorry to find that the House was tired
with the discussion of this subject ; but, be that so or not,
he would fearlessly state that he never would support any
Church Establishment at the expense of his country. An
Hon. Member, in the course of this debate, had made
some unnecessary remarks upon a gentleman obtaining in-
formation in a stage-coach; but for his own part, he
must say that he thought it no disgrace, even in a Mem-
ber of Parliament, to travel in, and acquire information
from a person in, a stage-coach.

Mr. RICHARDS—The Hon. Member was mistaken
in his allusion. The remarks or the laugh referred to by
him were not made in reference to the sufferings of any
clergyman, but to a speech of the Hon. Member himself.
Mr. RUTHVEN said he made no complaint upon the
subject, but he thought it a little too much for any one,
Member or otherwise, to laugh at the recital of the suffer-
ings of a respectable individual.—(Hear, hear.) He con-
fessed he was much gratified at many parts of the speech
which fel from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel)
last night, because he thought it would do him more credit
with the House and with the country than any thing
which he bad recently heard from him.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman hail stated that parties were
now contending in this House; that a struggle had taken
place ; and that he would give his disinterested support to
his M ijesty's Ministers ; and so far he (Mr. Ruth-
ven) would agree with him. But he thought that
the Right Honourable Baronet would have been
nearer the mark if he had said that the struggle
was for the loaves and fishes, or between those who were
in and out of office.—(Hear, hear.) In truth, it appeared
as if the Whigs had thrown themselves under the shelter of
the Right Hon. Baronet's mantle, and he (Mr. Ruthven)
was glad that they bad so readily availed themselves of his
assistance.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Ruthven) must also say
that he admired the talents, the fortune, the family, and
the private virtues of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ire-
land ; but in public life he was constrained to say that
the Right Hon. Gentleman was more like the agent of a
tyrant than of a free Government. However, as long as
the people of England sympathised with those of Ireland
be had no fear for the destinies of his country.
Mr. FITZGERALD (of Louth) spoke from under the
Gallery on the Opposition side of the House, but we were
unable to collect the import of the Hon. Gentleman's ob-
servations.

iMr. BROWNE said that he had listened with the
greatest attention to all that had fallen from the opponents
of the address, during the three evenings on which the
House had been engaged in the discussion, but that he had
heard nothing from them to induce him to give any coun-
tenance or support to the amendment which they had
proposed. He could not support it, because it appeared
to him that the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin
had not laid any ground for it. The Hon. and Learned
Member bad enumerated the grievances under which Ire-
land laboured, but his panacea was quite insufficient. The
Hon. Member for Waterford had, in his excellent speech,
described the heart-rending distresses of the Irish people ;
but the remedy which he suggested was very different from
the remedy of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin.
It was well stated by the Hon. Member for Waterford,
that the distresses and disturbances in Ireland did not ori-
ginate in political causes, but solely and entirely in the
poverty of the people.—(Loud and continued cheers.)
The Hon. Member for Waterford had also justly declared,
that the evil could be alleviated only by the introduction
of poor laws, and that to that introduction he was pre-
pared to consent. The lion. and Learned Member for
Dublin, who professed, and no doubt felt patriotism, con-
tended that the remedy of the Hon. Member for Water-
ford would be unavailing. All admitted the evil, although
they differed with respect to the remedy. To coercive
measures he was very averse; but there might be an ex-
ception to the objections against them. When people
talked of suspending the Constitution, and the trial by
Jury, they should consider who the party was by whom
they had really been suspended.—(Hear, hear.) By
whom had that beautiful institution, the trial by Jury,
been suspended ? All persons who had any local know-
ledge of Ireland, were quite aware that the trial by Jury
was at present nothing but a mockery. Any man who
was acquainted with Ireland, was quite aware, that at
the present moment thousands of crimes remained un-
punished,
because the trial by Jury was a mere mockery.
—(Hear, bear, hear.) He well knew that the opinions
which he was now expressing were not popular, but he was
not one of those who were disposed to bend to what he was
satisfied was an error. He was desirous to adhere to the
connection with England.— (Hear, bear,hear.) He by no
means imputed bad motives to those who wished to dis-
solve that connection ; but be was not disposed, for the
sake of popularity, to support a proposition which, he was
persuaded, would be fatal to the best interests of the peo-
ple. in their argument against the adoption of any

coercive measures, the opponents of the address con-
tended that the present laws were sufficient ; but at the
some time they cast every possible odium on the po-
lice by whom those laws were enforced. For himself
he felt much gratitude to that body, and could bear his
testimony to the humanity and forbearance with which
they exercised the power confided to them.—(Hear.)
In the county which he represented, a system of terror
prevailed—a system which was directed against the poor
peasant, whose only crime was obedience to the laws. At
that very moment an unfortunate peasant in the neigh-
bourhood of his residence had been obliged to fly from his
home and conceal himself in the woods, merely because he
was a man of good character, and was obedient to the
laws. The day before he (Mr. Browne) left Ireland, this
man came to him and told him he did not know what to
do, for that he had not the means of emigrating to Ame-
rica; and informed him that he had slept on the preced-
ing night in the vestry-room of the Church.—(Hear.)
He could state to the House many other circumstances of
a similar nature, which would warrant the suspension of
what was now only a mockery. He was determined,
therefore, to give his humble support to his Majesty's Go-
vernment; not from any wish to partake of the loaves and
fishes, but because he approved of their measures. Coming
from Ireland, he felt that he should have been guilty of a
great breach of duty if he had not stated what he knew of
the system of terror, oppression, cruelty, and wickedness
which at present prevailed there. He was no friend to
severe penal laws ; and he knew that they were not cal-
culated to attach a people to a Government. But here
was a case in which, there being a suspension of all the
constitutional protection afforded to the subject by trial by
jury, the Legisluture were called upon to interfere and
apply a remedy to the evil ; and in his opinion the mea-
sures to be adopted ought to be strong, in order that they
might be effectual.
Mr. ROURKE said, that since Ministers had taken
their seats on that bench, there had been a surprising va-
riance in their policy towards the two countries. In Eng-
land they were all for Reform—in Ireland for coercion.
Their conduct had been equally strange at the Dublin
elections ;—for the city they gave their support to two
Conservatives, andfor the University to two Reformers.—
He rejoiced, however, to say, that in both contests they
received a signal defeat. Again, in their policy abroad, they
were Anti-Unionists, but at home just the reverse. In Bel-
gium they were Anti-Unionists, but here they were Unionists
" even to the death." As this question of the Union was
likely to be a fashionable one, he should repeat an extract
delivered twenty years since by a Noble Lord in the other
House (Lord Byron), on the motion of Lord Donough-
more for a Committee on the Rom +n Catholic claims,
April 21, 1812 :—" If it must be called a Union, it is the
union of the shark with his prey ; the spoiler swallows
up his victim, and thus they become one and indivisible."
After a few further remarks, which were lost amidst the
impatience of the House, the Hon. Member concluded by
saying, that he would readily have voted with Ministers
for coercive measures, if they had promised to try con-
ciliation first.
Mr. PETER (Bodmin) could not reconcile it to his
sense of duty to vote on this question without stating the
reasons on which his decision was founded. If he did not
feel satisfied that something remedial was instantly to be
adopted towards Ireland, he would not go hand in hand
with Ministers—he would long hesitate before acceding to
the proposed coercion ; but believing on his soul and ho-
nour that the one was as necessary to its present state as
the other to its future peace, he felt himself bound to sup.
port Ministers in their intended measures. He did not
form his judgment on the state of Ireland by the reports of
newspapers, but on the evidence of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman—(Hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—and the friends
who surrounded him ; and in that evidence there was
enough to satisfy him of the correctness of the vote he
purported to give.—(Cheers.) In much that had been
stated by the Honourable and Learned Member for
Dublin, and the Honourable Member for Waterford, he
fully concurred, for Ireland undoubtedly was suffering
under many wrongs which loudly called upon them
to use every practicable endeavour to remove.—(Hear,
heir, hear.) The Grand Jury Laws, the Assessments,
Church Cess, and many other things, were evils which
required an early and proper revision. Taxed as that
country was for a Church she did not approve—every
half-starved peasant having something wrung from him
for it, he felt that palliative measures could not be too
soon applied. Though voting for the address, he frankly
owned there were many things that ought not to be, and
that the complaints so frequently made were but too
true. He well knew that amongst the Magistrates there
was a vast deal of party spirit.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear")—that the lives of the people were often endangered
and sacrificed by it—(Hear, hear)—and that there was
much more due to the forbearance of the military than the

discretion of the Magistrates.—(Cheers.) But were

there not more evils in Ireland than those thus complained
of? 'What was the sta'e of the peasantry, and what the
rate of wages?—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") If
they wished to set to in earnest to tranquillise that country,
they must begin by bettering the condition of her
people—(Cheers)—moral as well as physical—they must
give them something to hope for—(Cheers)—something
to live for—they must give them a stake in the country—
(Cheers)—an intetest, a personal interest i❑ her welfare
and tranquillity.—(Loud cheers.) He had already ad-
mitted the existence of alarming evils, but whilst he made
that admission, he must not be supposed as in the remotest
degree attributing them to the present Ministers.—
(Cheers.) He could not agree that the accumulated
ills of ages—the wrongs and insults and injuries of
centuries—could be redressed by any Ministry of two
years' standing. —(Lourl cheers.) He would ask, was
it possible for Ministers to hive done more than they
had during the past two years?—(Cheers.) Could
they, he would appeal to any candid mind, have in-
troduced an efficient and proper measure for the
relief of the many abuses of Ireland with a reason-
able prospect of success, pending the discussion of that vast
Reform—that great Bill, on which the peace, the safety,
and the happiness of the whole kingdom depended ?
(Loud cheers.) He did not deny that there were occa-
sions when agitation became necessary—(Cheers from the
Opposition benches)—under bigoted Governments for in-
stance, or at those periods when just and acknowledged
rights were withheld. Such was the case in 1782,
when the Earl of Charlemont and the patriot Grattan, at
the head of one hundred thousand volunteers, stood forth
for the rights of Ireland. Such was the case with the
Catholic Association, when they agitated for those po-
litical rights which had been too long denied ; and such
was the ease when the Reform Bill, on which both King
and people were bent, was attempted to be crushed.
Now, however, there was no occasion for agitation when
a Reformed House—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell)
and a liberal Government—(Cheers from the Opposi-
tion Benches)—he would repeat it, a liberal Government
were pledged to the practical redress of grievances.—
(Cheers.) Storms which disturbed the atmosphere also
cleared it, but they were not the breath of life ; and
strong medicines, though wise in some cases, would not
do as daily food. In all countries, wretches could be
found who were ever on the look out, like smugglers in
a storm, to pursue agitation, to create tumult, and effect
their nefarious projects, if possible, with impunity.—
(Partial cheers.) He besought all persons, whether within
the House or without it—men of all parties, of all prin-
ciples, of all creeds, Orange or Catholic, in their views and
conduct towards Ireland, to merge all inferior points. He
besought theirs to this by the love of their country :

" Ne, pueri, tanta animis assuescite belle :
Neu patrise validas in viscera vertite vires
Tuque prior, to parce."
He did not mean to speak offensively to the Hon. and
Le trned Member for Dublin or any one else, but in sin-
cerity. He trusted he would pause in his career, that he
would wait until he found what measures were to be
adopted for the benefit of Ireland. He (Mr • O'Connell)
could never succeed in what he proposed—or if he did,
it would be through seas of blood.—(Cheers.) From
the evidence of all parties, it was evident that decisive
measures were necessary. The law was a dead letter.
Under the present frightful state of alai's, the ricl.
man was set against the poor man—the Protestant against
the Catholic—and friend against friend. What was to be
done ? Do justice, he said.—(Loud cheers.) Alas ! this
was not the work of a minute—not the work of months
after centuries of misrule.—(Hear, hear.) What then
was to be done in the mean time ? Was the midnight
murderer and incendiary to stalk abroad unheeded and
unpunished?—(Cheers.) No; life, property, must be
openly protected and vindicated, and if the Government
was not strong enough, ampler powers must be conceded
to them.—(Hear, hear.) They would thus be enabled to
maintain the supremacy of the law "ne quid detrimenti
respublica caoeret."

- .
ROTCH (we believe), after some prefatory obser-
vations, which were indistinctly heard in the gallery, and
some personal remarks on Mr. O'Connell and " his
pro-
phecies," proceeded to observe, that Hon. Members
seemed to forget all other subjects in this address but Ire-
land. If the exact views of every Hon. Member were to
be embodied, a month's time would he spent upon it.—
(Hear, hear.) As to the remarks which had been
made by preceding speakers on the omission of any
mention of the labouring classes, he would observe, that
during the last session a most efficient step had been taken
in their behalf by the minute investigation directed to
be made into the operation of the poor laws. This
would tend moat importantly to alleviate their condition.

The Hon. Member made a few general remarks on the
subject of tithes, and concluded by expressing his hope that
in their Church Reform they should belie the hopes of its
ambushed enemies, and prove that they could thoroughly
amend without destroying the establishment.
Colonel TORRENS did not mean to detain the House
long, but wished to state the reasons for which he should
not vote for the address. In the first place, be regretted
that the speech from the throne was framed in the manner
that it had been—that it stared either too much, or not
enough. He would have had it so framed as to realise
Mr. Canning's idea of the perfection of such a production,
and in that manner prevent the necessity of this prelimi-
nary discussion. Those who thought Reform had gone
too far, and those who thought it had not gone far enough,
had often been united in fighting the battle of the people,
and he should have been glad to see them united on the
present occasion, that of the first assembling of the first
Reformed Parliament—an occasion which be thought to
he one of national congratulation, for it was the greatest
improvement that had taken place in our government since
the times of our Saxo❑ ancestors. The people were
now unhappily suffering from very general distress, and
they would expect redress from this Reformed Parliament.
The comforts of the labouring classes too required to be
considered, and he believed that the Government intended
to pass a Bill for the shortening of the hours of labour in
factories ; but when they did so, they must be prepared
for t e results. Distress would at first be greater, in
consequence of such a Bill. At present wages were re-
duced to the starving point, and the first effect of such a
measure would be to lower theta further. It must,
therefore, be accompanied by the means of obtaining
cheaper food, and of allowing a more extended consump-
tion of our manufactures. These measures were not
plainly enough indicated in the speech, and he could not,
therefore, vote for the address. Before he sat down, he
must be permitted to allude to Ireland. He regretted that
Earl Grey and his enlightened colleagues should have any
hostile feelings towards Ireland. It was impossible to say
that they had any other but a desire to promote the peace,
the security, and the happiness of Ireland—(Hear,
hear)—but they had, in fact, though unintentionally,
committed some great mistakes. The first and worst
was the very frame of the Government itself. Why was
exclusion banished from the Statute-book, if it was to be
kept up in practice ? That was one of the reasons why
the Catholic Relief Bill did not produce satisfaction.
That Bill had been made a dead letter. They had formed
a Cabinet, in which they had, unfortunately, included that
very principle which they had often most eloquently de-
nounced. Not one Catholic of talent, or who had acquired
the confidence of the country, was to be found among the
Members of the Cabinet. I❑ that manner the Govern-
ment was cut off from the sympathies of the people. That
was one evil consequence of such conduct. Another was,
that the Government were not well informed on the real
state of Ireland. What was the state of Ireland ? Before
the Union Ireland had been partly an agricultural and
partly a manufacturing country. Since the Union it had
ceased to be a manufacturing, and was now entirely an
agricultural country.—(Hear, bear, from Mr. O'Connell.)
That transaction had produced the greatest distress.
One-fourth of the population of a country was sufficient to
produce food enough for the whole. If that was so, as
every one knew it was, then what was to be done with
the rest of the population, if there were no manufactures ?
The Hon. Member for Banbury had said that the intro-
duction of capital into Ireland would be one of the reme-
dies for the distress. He (Col. Torrens) was able to prove,
that, instead of making things better, it would make them
worse.—(A laugh ) He stated it as a broad ass, rtion.—
(Loud laughter.) He was prepared to prove it.—(Re-
newed laughter.) He was prepared to prove that the
introduction of capital into Ireland, instead of making
things better, would make them worse. Take the capital
from England, or from the moon, but get it. Well,
then, when it was carried to Ireland, it could not
be employed in manufactures there. No person
could be so absurd as to suppose that all the
capital in Lombard•street could create in Kent or Sussex
manufactures to compete with those of the North of Eng-
land. In fact, manufacturers must go where fuel is cheap.
If capital could not carry manufactures to Kent or Susses..
how could it carry them to Dablin or Cork ? While the
trada was a coasting trade, and Ireland had to compete
with England, there could be no manufactures in Ireland.
What was the consequence? Why that Ireland, in con-
nection with England, must necessarily employ her la-
bourers in the cultivation of the soil. What, then, would
he the result of the increased capital ? Capital would
establish an improved method of agriculture, and would
introduce into Inland the systems of Norfolk and the
Lotiri ins; and what would be the consequence? That
any given quantity of labourers would cultivate more than

they did at present ; so that there would be less employ-
ment for any number of people upon any given extent of
surface. In England there was more agricultural capital
than in Ireland, and in England on any farm whatever there
were fewer labourers than on a farm of the same extent
in Ireland. The same would be the case there, and the
amount of the surplus population would be increased. It
was true it would raise the value of land, and raise rent,
and the Hon. Member for Banbury would have another
opportunity of referring to the increased exports of
Ireland ; they would only prove the increased dis-
tress. Some people thought there ought to he poor
laws in Ireland, but different from those that were in
England. Certainly they must. But what modification
of the por laws would do for England, if the manufac-
tures were gone, and the rates were supplied entirely
by an a‘sessinent upon the land? If the poor laws
were necessary to save the people from starvation, let us
have them; but they ought to know what was to be
given, and what would he the effect of the gift. Such a
system of poor laws would be equal to the introduction of
the Spencean system, and they must enact in that House
that the land was the people's farm. Another remedy
proposed was to cultivate the bogs. It might be a re-
medy, but then the food must be raised on these hogs at
a less expense than at present, or otherwise the matter
would be worse than now. Another remedy proposed
was to create a wall of custom-house duties. That course
he did not recommend. It might enable the surplus po-
pulation of Ireland to maintain themselves for a time, but
the landlords should consider it well before they adopted it,
for the value of their estates would be decreased 50 per
cent. One other remedy was emigration, of which he
approved. He was certain that the evils of Ireland could
not be put down by coercion. In the address none of
these topics were alluded to, and for that reasoa he should
not vote for it. He did not wish to join in any factious
debate, and to embarrass Ministers, for they had much to
do, and little time to do it in : and he should therefore
sit down in the hope that the distress which the people of
that country now suffered would meet with the speedy
attention of Parliament, and obtain effectual relief. He
called on them to be diligent before the petty cloud that
lowered in the distance became an universal darkness,
and before a trifling wound, which might be remedied if
attended to in time, was converted into deadly gangrene.
Mr. BRISCOE had determined, on the whole, to sup.
port the address ; but in doing so he could not refrain
from saying that there were omissions in the Royal
speech, which, however, he trusted would be amply com-
pensated by the labours of his Majesty's Ministers. There
was no allusion in the speech. to the great grievance of
colonial slavery, nor to those measures from which, above
all, the people expected relief from their burdens—the
measures for insuring a diminished expenditure. Neither
was there in the speech any expression of sympathy with
the distress of the people of this realm, and for those priva-
tions which it was the hard lot of the lower classes and of
some of the middle classes to endure. He hoped that the
promise in the speech to remove the causes of complaint
included the introduction of improvements. He had been
assured by the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, that it was the intention of the Government to re-
dress the wrongs of Ireland, and were it not for the state-
ment in the speech that the Church of Ireland should re-
ceive a separate consideration, he could nut have supported
the address. If coercion should ultimately be proved to be
absolutely necessary, he should reserve to himself the right
of judging of the amount of that coercion, of the manner
in which it was to be applied, and of the time for
which it was to continue; and as be was satisfied on
these points he would vote. Ile considered the suspension
of the ordinary administration of justice as one of the
greatest political evils, and as one which should not be
resorted to but in the extremity of danger, and to stay the
dissolution of the framework of society. He should give
his support to the address only from the confidence he
placed in the Ministers, that they were determined to re-
dress the wrongs of much-injured Ireland ; and he was
convinced that if that was honestly and effectually done,
many of those who now called for the repeal of the Union,
would no longer agitate that question.
Mr. O'DWYER began by praising the Hon. Member
for Dublin, who, he said, it was satisfactory to know had
stood more formidable attacks than those of the Member
for Knaresborough. In fact, in proportion as those at-
tacks were made, in the same proportion had he risen,
and would continue to rise in the estimation of his coun-
try. Agitation was blamed now, but it had been thought
good under certain circumstances—tor instance, when
English Catholics wished to get admitted to the Peerage—
when the Tories were coquetting for place—(Hear)—and
when fires were burning through the country, then agi-
tation was admired; but now that there were no pard
cular objects to attain, agitation was condemned. Although
he would not presume to offer the Right Hon. Secretary

W Would
fat Ireland the tribute of his commiseration, be °toil acii sides.
con gratulate Ministers on the extraordinary ebtili f entlensai
which they were placed. He called upon the Rignd tof •ar 44Por
Gest tleman to state hie plan fairly and openlY,eseroill 'triton) fel
Clare at once whether he meant to spare or to ue /sit rttoeci
Chut ch.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet ,1/41,11r bad r
Peel) last night had adverted to the condition 01 .1 re
• t be y'r. obli
at thso period of the Union, and upon this point tot' Roble
to read an extract from a speech delivered at the
eret 1 tee,
Mr. Plunket, now a distinguished Member of the, Nona
Government.—(The Hon. Gentleman here read a; weakenel te it
or,
cation from a speech delivered by Lord Plullkeeteireb: c'uough
Irish Parliament, in which he described the "°-,,r „-"rto of
state of Ireland, blessed with a population of fourftb"itai 'yet he eras
millions of handy, gallant, and enthusiastic i"h. /0. enure wool
living u nder equal laws, and enriched by thrir'nthe 44* As o
and rnatetifactures.) Such were the words of lye I °ll. Net
cent Lord Chancellor for Ireland ; but he (Mr' °‘ estri 1:41,1"al pie
saw how rapid was the transition from a rap, IC With ro
bursting with heroic rage," and a smiling Pleeere r the
smoothness: and servility.—(Cheers. He %%rye' sto 11,4 °seri to /
himself, in a few further observations, to other I' t
moos
Ger
the proposed address. How the Right Hon. 13er'Perei v,(1)1'1 t° thi
R. Peel) could give his vote in favour of the Poe a lick had
Ministers he knew not, unless he was resolved tO, of bee
to th
tain the Protestant Church, and to oppress Cstv%p of clistetba
land. There was not a single point of ogreeineeerl' 015441 the
tween the Right Hon. Baronet and the Secretary far
ealteble.
land. How could the Right Hon. Baronet vote 00110 fir 3:11'4 :t
address which supported the separate existence of tt )4ie Rate
and Belgium ? He (Mr. O'Dwyer) was astonished aohiee
course pursued by Ministers towards those countrie'ilee etlY to be,
dared they interfere between rebels and their leg re, eceelide,
Sovereign ? With the distribution of Church )eester sec but
England he had nothing to do ;it was a mere eld saalch des
tastee—(Cheers and laughter.) If the gentry and k;.,,P,reestd,
tants of England thought fit to maintain an e", DJ demo of •
kettti
Church Establishment, it was their own choice'oo r rhe,ed
was not for him to dispute its fitness. The rue's-te
be recommended for Ireland, it was said, ffe,'„t 11+ that Weirs
founded upon a principle of just commutation ; 4' that d
Ministers prepared to say that a Catholic P,..,4,010 tsPereYed se/
would and should maintain a Protestant Church or'''" affie,
went ? Let them not lay that flattering unction te oat! of ;LWittdon,
souls. At the same time, he was not devoid of oifii that gre-at
for the Protestant clergy of Ireland :he thought I:iee tievterotneet
been exceedingly ill-treated by Government, fikel'gti' littleountry
assisted in a gross delusion of the people. net ise, kid pi,
that the present possessors of church propertYa.
to be provided for ; but why did the Right 1-12° stiel,°t the a]
cretary confine all his sympathy to the clergy', ad old not
had he none for the people ? He would :tding' 4;44 if he
the benevolence of Ministers in this respect, bye te4.aeasureB
abstract of the decrees obtained in two parishes °' fo" of dr,ltY than
rary. In one instance a man was proceeded 3gliTfor
penny ; yet, although he produced a receipt in fu
.) as t 'lleasute
tithes, he was compelled to pay the costs.—(Cheer'sed ateeesi
required eleven decrees to recover only fivepenc,e;., el° he
hum
the whole there were 9,5 M processes at a sing'e toe tit:t said
of Tipperary.---(Hear.) Would Parliament, thelariee,si deb %la eta
to the present Government unexplained, uncontrot`ie r tsejseekeet
unlimitable authority? He flt much indebted for ofl T
tient consideration of the House :be felt the truthe eei,oubted
he had advanced, and would not be restrained bY 6°lo eteb tod had
ing of diffidence.—(Cheers and laughter.) rh.ete t bse4gfles ee
Hon. Baronet recommended unmitigated severlV,''' eeettgreete,
Secretary for Ireland exclaimed " War to the I'o' etse fed not be
(No, no.) War to the knife, or war to the dest11";011, for It do
was not much difference in the expression. l'eci4 eitie°4oets
Member of the Government said that he preferre,
elf the
war to dismemberment ; and the Member for 13. Was -"'e of
(Mr. Tancred) recommended a military dictatorshl.P'et thet'tseett
(Mr. O'Dwyer) recommended, if such a dictatorsh9 Nt.lttiple
re'
established, that the Hon. Member so peculiarly cle,oo' of the slip
should be made its Chancellor..-Hear. tt1111: igt,
Ministers that their conduct might not only be "'tit.; of I.oeoQesew're
to themselves, but destructive to the integrity of t. 1% Agrairlg at e ,
pire. Charles X. of France, and the King of 'to P
iNtrativn
load, like the Secretary for Ireland, cried Weer,
,g,tos every
death, and what had been the consequence?--(Ceferl, ki"leat,,°l th-
Mr. STANLEY rose in haste and amid a good with., hear e
confusion. lam (he said) too much its the caul °,4 er
of having my expressions misinterpreted--(C"-
however explained and refuted, yet repeated over rl° to' the! t i ore
reper ass l
again, until those who repeat begin to believe the/feel it t
heard—(Hear)—to allow me to sit silent on the Path 45i beeti4tr,
re-repetition. It has been said that I have eMPlete, ktdre 41 ea
expression of war to the knife or war to the del!' tioe4e' Wes 4:
may be very convenient to have it published 1;°,50 the ;'re lea-ct
newspapers—(Cheers from all sides)—and be!c, Withi''elliefe a
made the subject of harangues in Ireland—(lle3ro'rioe: t° tot4,4is knn
—that the Secretary for Ireland entertains the -Jett' °t Ali al
that w.r is to be waged to the knife or to the Sal et
wile), Yo
thtei
therefore, in the presence of the representatives o.a
land, Scotl 'rad, and Ireland, who heard what Jis3l Siobthe atts
former day, I now assert again that I never use" ho 'Of a Ile
expression.—(Cheers.) This I did say, that the, ,rot *o4o' the
the Union between the two countries, coneiderr4 ( ofth be mot,
equivalent to the dismemberment and destrUctit:tle' 4:,°' being
empire, I would, if need were, resist to the "of IN a• WAL
silen T
(Much cheering and great confusion in all parts I}4s,
so het tlnti
House.)
tleo 011 o
Mr. O'DWYER—I make the Right Hon. Gee h elf tadi q°Pits cc
present of his explanation.—(Hear, hear.) Pr°„sjeti t!llost
may proceed from the obtuseness of my Hibernian 0,, emoa with
lect, but I confess I cannot understand the distar'd, 1):44, thu
(Oh, oh, and cheers.) I take him in his own wereisite ttf l 0 the ,
I tell him this—that the experiment of despotisal 0 40
07 oNtWO tee
be successful. Coming from a country where 1;/er)' b get
can speak the truth—(Hear, hear, hear, and loug (10 ii,°ctse' to
where no man can speak or print the truth-ite/le!, gee: the tec
hear, and cheers)---it is pleasant to me to know t, tire
disregard with the utmost composure the ridicueeli te4l4tt:ittteat'teftthi:
of my country or of myself.—(Heare) The endue tl °1;11114,440ti0n
of a horse laugh may be considered courtesy
iteprl tttetlt th, c
country, but in Ireland it would he treated in 4 bter Or b
that could admit of no mistake.—(Hear, and Ifgdsrei t,° eke/4,Y
What I said was, that no man in Ireland wool" reoic 'keeh,
tell the truth in speaking of the atrocities and opP rod oe „1
.41,04
your qiied th
of the Government.—(Hear.) I repeat it : ,bert tilt f
there are so filled, that an instance has occurred ",,,0" acts tot
cc"- Uttt ctal man was discharged from custody for want 0f a ',ltht ir
dation. There are more prosecutions for libel '3°W that er•
E the t'en
even in the time of the Right Hon. Baronet. ill Jae, 'lees ti
Sir R. PEEL said, that be was not aware 0' e"' a 4141
cct of g
time.
a. 'or
Mr. O'DWYER-1 am glad to hear that thereofpr t'''ot
none ; and I only wish that the Right gab ocieti (it'.4l tirattl the-
would forego the tranquil enjoyments of Engli'ho eer
t:Rtee 'st heti
and again come amongst us—for any change W°°'teat '41:11i",
the better. The Hon. Member went on to soY' cekei °Yroent
bad warned the Secretary for Ireland that lois eqet 0.0; C'tll 't
of despotism would fail ; it bad failed before, sad I iss° feted
fail again, notwithstanding the Thraso-like b'oasts °fsrtlit itertitthkt.t due
Members Members of the Cabinet. He would tell hia' hoid p4g to4thet
not in the way of menace, but instruction—that L: (pit;
encounter with the people of Ireland, if they wer:',,eer et-7
to h:4) so d
by oppression to violence—and he hoped most ale elks .) %einem
that they never would he compelled to resort to that ee-d,,1514114 tee
native.-might not end so happily as he anticipatedol/eer 4 144'0, ettuti
Dr. LUSHINGTON expressed his regret andecoeri h4el renetb,)' the
at the tone and temper which had pervaded atie c•e°,; tltlied fe
rable portion of the debate.—(Hear,, hear.) " seort tin'teetiok",he
not tout lament deeply that many gentlemen ropes nail 4'14; "...Ovate
places in Ireland had thought fit to hold out 00 411104 fof 401
Members language of menace and intimidationeffeCi th r
and cries of " No, no.") It could produce but or` 04, 1171; Y ; 4114:
it would not aid the Irish Members in obtaintagi set it e through
was inconsistent with the judgment and principle' tclA (4 kight
English part of the House—(Much cheering)---bu if
.„4°' ktwi,
rather induce them to view with great vigilance'grevi te'"srie
ttoogly
suspicion, propositions so supported. He deeply few littj" %Elk", tl
the language in which the Honourable Member W be,,0,14410ttt
just resumed his seat had thought fit to indulge. note the° she gameed
ferred not to his vituperation against Governaievte'e Piet' toiettrta'4lerleree
the harmless darts he had so violently hurled at t.; Of .1 Citr,Y
Hon. Secretary for Ire;and ; these were the ie't!",llouie oake iCeb had
difficulties with which he bad to contend ; but 11, bi/i4 kesePitit e°,°
to words which he (Dr. Lushington) had fixedeleetroll,
ti! the
collection when the Hon. Gentleman spoke of "teot‘ill tttreellraret
the Protestant Church. He begged to know if seer 4 qin tit and
/ 4 ktt &Y
an expression to which the Hun. Gentleman too hg'"
adhere ? ice Ppear
Mr. O'DWYER—When he spoke of interfee 001 tho,t Nil,.
the Protestant Church, begged to be under:.) vehoteeAlitet,4
mean interference with its temporalities-na(t114:0.4-1
Dr. LUSHINGTON thought the ex mmn"°f Ras to
satisfactory than the original expression.—(Cheetre'red had apprehended that every Member who el'ar bee Sirieatt'll,
House was hound by a sacred ohligat-(11e,-;dble Ligitatetked to
—not to uphold the abuses of the F'rotestant "'we, Were etio
t
anent—the imperfections with which time might,' 10, Who heeilltoset7Y
grafted it—tout to support, maintain, reform, not it ltktiseb, t4t
that establishment.—(Cheers.) He had thought it e t't ee,l4
oP
Roman Catholic :Members entered the Houser tee ,re eeerlteetrtet 'euct
ing words which they subscribed male a dell eitoo",eo `'eetj'e'
upon their minds :—" And Ido hereby discleitatee prej olie ts/tat t
and solemnly abjure any intention to subvert
ti°ol., JP/ ne
Church Establishment, as settled by liwr."--( ,td olvti; I.:"^fron) toY ekpe!
Mr. O'Connell.) After that cheer he might re-o'fell' " nr":, ,hißh`
And Ido solemnly, in the presence of God, p,tiont h'44 he 114(14
tify, and declare, that I do mu oke this declareoe, cete,:tele
t_
every part thereof, in the plain and ordinary
e!
atiete,
0744e144,
b.=,
out any evasion, equivocation, or mental reserve It: 00 the E,t
(Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.) If th celotl(' 0, raia4ar 0°4.414
and Learned Member supposed that by his !juit fror1:11 tlB,teh duet'
could for one single instant intimidate Iltpoeo,,)/,h"feltstraight path of his duty—(Cneers) —if be sup
ceeery eoth, the
IN
441
he could be a prime agitator here—(Mouh
the
110,1
if he thought that that character could be assn,
she
with the consent even of a petty majority or