The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-22 00:00:00

'4113' as he agreed With his Noble Friend that it was impossible
to_ gipivre re!ief to any one class, without every other class in the
nnsi e Participating in the benefit.
tonl.
et:tHENRY WILLOUGHBY begged to occupy the atten-
anYin.he '4-sense for a few moments. He would not go into
telect of general discussion, but would confine himself
epx.entusively to the question before the House. What was the
principle unon which that question ought to be determined.?
*ash of• frodr Whiaam Pledged
to
any particular proposition, it
to endeavour to redeem that pledge.
:_nt.ishat was the Principle which the House had to proceed
ttnutiliteherehdeunction of taxation, that of endeavouring to asc-
e're-
nnititry p Thineode of reconciling the conflicting interests of th
bean ad,,,,, great distress of the agricultural interest had
that i., ,:uated, and distinctly proved. It was no doubt. also true
the ' "ad been pronounced by the report of a Committee, that
It 4.efrfas.roorcial interest was not enjoying any great prosperity..
i5..7 "'en well observed by an Hon. Member, that in essti-
-o,7eting thei,
h,,, ,rosperity of any manufacture, it should be con i-
it w d."` °Y how much business was done, but at what rate
'lncase -Ile' \VbY not pursue the same course with respect toe
tpetttlture as that Hon. Member had recommended withr-
ough„°rcariUfactures ? The object of all reduction of taxation
the
r' tobe twofold
not only to allow the producer tohpurtodaucsoe to es for home co inption at a cheaper ra ,
N"able hi nsu - with fa. !
o kark in to enter into a.successful competition
taxation. e,k Such should be the view taken of agricultural •
an inm, she repeal of the malt tax would not only produce
briag'"ediate effect, but would enable parties growing barley to
there ol'. more cheaply into the market, and would enable
Ide.
I+ilinately to compete with foreign growers.
ISl'e I resentAWELL strongly recommended a tax on absentees. '
°. it eriah sYstein was an absolute premium on ab.sen
ma•
r; anq to ed absentees to draw their income from this co
which ive abroad without being subjected to those burdens' •
i Ntr, tssed so heavily on their countrymen.
4 ors "NELL said he meant to vote for the motion. the tioldd state briefly why, It was because it would pledge Which uBe to repeal the Malt tax, and every other tax. by l'ortheagriculture was kept in a state of undue depression.
war
not all very well knew that the Noble Lord (AlthorPn)
cold
take a single step in that direction, excepttupo r
the Pte:,„4* Another reason which induced him to vo
Memberefo for w„ '''t Motion was that it would afford the Hon. L
thot.preester a rezison, for pressing on the Noble Lord (Al
Lora (ial telaxation of the duties on shipping. The Nob e
t°Preser,t,h°ll,) wou'ld, no doubt, yield to all these pressures,
ct,,,,,e wiseset tb,e, PoPularity of the Government. Surely th.is
,-"ltnitt °' an possible countries, and yet surely it had
+0 its dale,d the greatest of all possible blunders with
.respect
ot°;,,thePublicdebt,
The country owed nearly one- thousand millions
nentosa,,., ',editor. Now, a private individual in the same.h
;`t editor •'''', who owed as any thousands, would go to. . his
'4 the pound and
would remonstrate against paying thirty shinning
41 was titt!td instead of twenty. Yet that was what. the. coonuse-.
"ence of with reference to the public creditor, in
.c
the
vah.„ _ _ the 1
eoll , or the
e..'egislative change which had been made in
otn, urrency.
hie ' was th • Another proof of the wisdom of the
relief. , , e propensity to take off taxes wi new . A hat relief' would the commercial or landed inted_ Althor by the rem' •
shp, P e Exe remission of. taxation
oplrdopomsaedximby,
byilhg saved
wt on the principle of the thatLnr a
"cate„, as a shilli e got they would obtain no relief
t -I.' lie had n- - ' elief to the coup. enuld hi, , heard it argued that no r .
Itiodaus.'e,,ntt,s,owgfue-inia,art:th(:asretdrellieepatbiniyeoutiadkitgeoff taxes. To this he would
k to try.—(A laugh.) There
agtietiltor Y betweenl his Majesty's speech and the
'ord Althorn His Majesty's speech declared.tha. c'Ples of e was ill a state. of great depression. On the princi.
that co_ P°litieal economy, the seconder of the address proved
sathorpunt ere, ,___
a "ss greatl'y depresse and then came Lord
'citner' and declared that he was earnedp to give relief to
an+ed cee+ and to no other interest. He (Mr. O'Connell)
that ',,•,° 'ober sadness, whether it was not agreed on all hands
agricaiteniture was in' a state of great distress ? Did any
tate,
4'.ltrist receive a third of his former income ; at any
third. 41 he receive half? in Ireland, a few received a
greatly lie, would tell the House, however, who enjoyed
meat
de Increased incomes—the proprietors of the Govern_
'eivetletd• The interest which those proprietors now re_
W
othp,notlid purchase three times the quantity of the meat
, , th
'hen - neeessaries which it would have pure ased at the time
+. he i e debt was contracted. Parliament must look to it.
strike
of% ntenest of that debt must be reduced. They
would musteffect a saving
Of to,:ll,'"til_orf that interest at once. That
001 th,l4il 1008 and a half. No doubt thecrhedritors would cry
hatiooa7 s.uch a proceeding' would be a rob e y a breach of
he coot fa'th, and national honour. All that was calloltn;gwcohna.t
hoo,,
sehded for was, national justice.—(Loud and
Bai'u.,, .4,°,uts of " Hear, hear.") They had been struggling
test. °L,..this
landed]ong enough. They suffer give up h • :as
Itivi"
._"e interest was deeplying.. H. ope
trei. ;:ay ; and the darkness of despair was difflising itselfhe
as
face of the land, enlightened only by the fires of Was them The The only interest that prospered in the country
had ~` Moneyed interest. The substitution of gold for paper
pr,,,Th to that interest an undue advantage and influence. It
adc'etct,inated over the other interests of this country. It was
eheap_..!.° them. The other interests wanted every thing as
As a ha, `_°e Moneyed interest every thing as dear as possible.
aim', ;ajiee.to this predominance, let the House strike off a
(spearti4 !feels thath a t t a'
l' 'I-
ni
at °et
risatt .sof the Government debt, and reduce taxa-
(shonsttoiat, If at the end of a twelvemonth, it should.
were degsinirnrei:ebtni:,7a Sufficient;
zn,
lessening
strike produceofr aalnlotthheerbseinxetfihc.Lal
scheno_f ‘,
Hear, hear, hear.") The Noble Chancellor of the
th,
~,,,i,,,,e:,,in th etauberance of his imagination, had talked of
oeselripttioniorroshof the country, and had luxuriated in the
themselves to 11
Which had occurred to nh* s 0".
h,°t!e.eni to have ever Tire .But among the other modes
7:,!r2 try his (Mr. O'Connell
order to oblige the
thiaerenspaectiot he
ededbitd.
foible Lord to resort tO Some Plan of this kind, he would vote
‘t_nrestnotion of the Noble Marquis.
feb7 . TANLEY begged the indulgence of the House for a
4,;;ltihnutes and would endeavour to keep his time mare ex_
far ft an the Hon. and Learned Member had done. He was
,$) I.
lasgnsve.atrilhlieno:sgl'les w which
presented
forced disputing many of tile propositions which had. bteennceeno.t.
aoit-wutuY the Noble Marquis, nor could he deny
tthheereexpoi existence
Commit treat distress, corroborated as it was by 0
.._ _
Majesty's of the
'keel, ee of last year, and by the expressions of his
if the
rett the opening of the present session of Parliament, and
hiatot,y- -
QP,.csition under their consideration were merely contir_
useful + that fact, he (Mr. S. could not deem it either a very
hit, t or a very desirable proposition. It seemed, ilideed, to
stela°
forte
b eho specific effect, but to introducedhavedisbeeensnsmn.Letit
Purpose of raising an angry
seeil e suPposed that he was disputing the facts, but he must
h °Wed to
411, doubt the judgment and propriety of introducing
, 4 l'4, Qti°4 to the House as that which was under discus.
li o
litacti'°r, whatth
was Proposed to be done,—what was to be e
n ?cal effect in the event of the House agreeing to the mo-
cshm4 Let Hon. Members consider the point well. Let them
'cllc'. the fundsgr on Which the proposition had met the
Ile ~,;:-ence of n. and Learned Member for Dublin.
Ilea, „not pretending to impute similar motives to any other
wa4
ell'i.t.Zber who thought fit to support the motion, but he
t t'ere , 1 , a to know,
Plac4°,,. be carried, if by a combination of various interests
1,50,0ett ith
countinrywhat situation the House would be
regard to the reduction of taxation and the future
"'°'ber: Of
the
tered , to.. consider this?-;o(
il:ttbit4i.i.niffeeeresen. ii -In
te a r , hTehaer . )p r 0 He
oes
it besoughtio n
was sHon.np.
the :v4ll°wed the nttPersdiis on. very'different grounds, but the
Would cet•tainlybe univ.ertseanldcedonfusion. Might
Land
be done in
ketotZt Of the atto:otat:qufiriel
motionwas in
The Hon. and Learned
Alth ror f°' bUblin h mot t. . e
t
h 't
his Noble Friend Lord
i'ressheor Would neves • id
ley) , , and for€ 4
.ogive up any tax unless he were driven,
t the uttermost. Now, this he (Mr. Stan-
he a fault to which his Noble Friend was not peen-
iziecahrtilli
ma,
:o_,•
aoyvi,
ihe had confessed only the other day that
that . red there
~, it ,
,duction of taxation to too great an extent, and
ne to the elastic resources of the country,..em.
„ raas, +4l) the deficiency, that considerable financial
far , -.+eritdid p uohlin I not ensue _(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member? ''''alls he lad said he would vote for the resolution. Why.
awbotitio4''oefexeected it would be followed by the immediate
~, Well , the Inalt tax (Hear hear.) He (Mr. Stanley)
11',.e dell 'Ware that such an' act would' be very popular ; that
eaatir Was
of verY lar
„,ot e ou the
i.. g.e amount, and occas. itoenreedstscoonfsildreerlaanbdle,
per „Which th ',tided interest. But the in
vaaj"l"arly so,. ! Hon. and Learned Member always seemed
vo;heied by thlett4us, surely her interests would not kee-
p ''d Put it ht repeals of the malt.tax ?—(Hear, heaf.Y He
tP, ,th to the RI
the t, aver iißight Hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir R.
th,.'',.°/1 aoil e was prepared to support the proplitittiaoxn
to ,i,"` eight ~" 1-earned Member for repealing the maool
t-2 that it wt:',"• Mernber who asserted that 1,200,0 th .cwonenre. 17, by a
dis tix)s,ble to take oti' from the burdens of
another
her 10,4,51°I•ilit4t.eto. hinrr,iptrihrooetiioiiio of taxation ?
h hitteti , He would ask. t
fano!, nikehe„,
__ ached the Government
o. Member for Essexfo(rMeri.icßraoraicnht,gwloino
the s`r the ".', “largin of taxation, whether he was prepared to
nothatio4ai
noieos.tractiou of 5,000,0001. from the interest of
'Whic'hft°4l ht:' ) Partial reduction of the malt tax would
the ta",,sorne tiodegree of relief to the agricTunitutrakaleionfftehresaltf
expeh: Wooiti
nuoi
beeNlrnbers might expet.
Presen et eoll
rly as at
, a removal of half the burden, for the
th t, li ection would remain pretty lien
cost of the
tax itatsking Ott the whole tax you took
the
entire
fait Of cone,. ell; because, you also got rid of d
ocs, ,
you
Icon of affom _ , out take off part of the tax,rhaen
• Right
elo,,
eqenti,,.`..tnntopertionate relief —( Hear.)
had'iv.. andso'ltiava
.theit proceeded to say that. a moreHocusone-
h had 4st heat,' t! ct.rY statement than that which the
win tio 1.. never
wricitill the Hon. and Learned Member for Duhieh
for wtea'°ed Ge,ll',"ed—a statement in the course of w
.de
r .lat the li()lttetilan showed that he was prepared. to prortihe °f at' of tax,ti:j rleiliber for Essex once denominated
inao,'e "bin: debt ' by a direct encroachment on the interest
1-100.8 mode of h;Cheers.) This was the Learned Gentle.Theor o_ aim 1,,,,,0, ,'lti,g up the margin.—(Hear,. hear.)
thez‘ixth
or
ti-,11, G. entleman proposed an immediate reduction.
inonth:" be s'ittc innerest of the national debt, and if. that
Inention. He h,,tele, rit, lie would reduce another sixth in 12
with;hill r. ade of ~
,e,ard the other night with surprise some
nitely n 00,,, ime pretext of an Act of Parliament ; u
rZtoht,c,inati talk iii
aaisit?nisliment did he now hear the Learned
the oto-,--(L'olld and Jitish Parliament of" the cant of national
reeeiveude io ,hipli
theeryesigniticant cheering.) He. fornanwas
by
Le tour sent repetition of that exp.rhess
"Y the *lginalhr -et°f contemptuous derision wit which it
charge
.rried J m when gravely stated and put forward
---,,tt6,e `d PartakGinentleman, fully vindicated the House
pin the
~,ti.01ne„,,,,i
elle:. in any such absurd and profligate ons.
io th_gtexpreasion )coing_- He owned " profligate" was
.a
•very
e oose
or
Principle's
urse lie meant " profligate opinions"
leading directly to acts of political

profligacy—but he could not make use of a lighter term when
characterising the sentiments referred to.—(Hear, hear.) He
rejoiced to hear the tone or derision with which the house had
received the hon. gentle Ilan', observation, inasmuch as that
unequivocal expression of feeling, saved the house from all sus-
picion, vindicated it froni the imputation of participating in
the sentiment, and sustained within the walls of Parliament,
not " the cant" but the high principle of integt ity, and national
faith and honour.—(Loud cheering.) He had merely risen for
the purpose of commenting on the Learned Gentleman's expres-
sion, and also to call the attention of the house to the fact that
a great number of those who were prepared to form part of what
he expected to be the majority, might do so without entering
into every financial consequence, but simply because they would
not, by so large an abolition of taxation, endanger the national
honour, which they were determined to uphold and vindicate.—
(Cheers.) He should only add, that according to every maxim
of political prudence, the house ought not to accede to a reso-
lution on the ground that it merely contained the assertion of
a truism, without being prepared to follow out the principles of
that truism in the way which its supporters advocated. [The
Right Hon. Gentleman concluded amidst loud cheering.]

Sir R. PEEL concurred in nearly all the sentiments implied
in the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, more particularly in re-
fer6nce to the maintenance of national faith—(Cheers)—and
concurring as he did in those sentiments, nothing could be
more painful than to find himself compelled by a sense of duly
to vote on the same side as those whose doctrines he totally
repudiated—doctrines founded on an avowed violation of
every principle of national faith and honour.—(Loud cheer-
ing.) But he should be ashamed of himself if he allowed
that circumstance to prevent him from taking the course he
had intended to adopt, or if he wire to permit himself to be
thus deterred from the performance of a plain duty. He was
not sorry, however, that the Hon. Gentleman had avowed his
political creed.—(Loud and marked cheering.) When we
came to consider the question of a repeal of the union between
England and Ireland, we should be able to collect what politi-
cal principles would be likely to prevail in the event of that
measure being conceded.—(Cheers.) Oh, (continued the
Right Hon. Baronet) oh ! all you who are interested in the
public funds in Ireland ; oh ! all ye Protestants who hold lands
or other property in Ireland, learn by this indiscreet declaration
of the Hon. Gentleman what you have to expect when you
shall be handed over to the tender mercies of a popular as-
sembly in which the influence and principles of the Learned
Gentleman prevail.—(Vehement and continued cheering.)
" Cant," exclaims the Learned Gentleman—" Cant !" (turning
round and fixing his eyes on Mr. O'Connell)
" I thank thee, Jew, for teaching me that word."
—(Great cheering and laughter.) You have dedided the ques-
tion of repeal of the union by this preliminary declaration.—
(Renewed cheering.) Oh! know every man who has property
of any description—who has any interest in the national funds,
that on such slender pretences of state necessity rests the doc-
trine which justifies a violation of national faith—a doctrine
which, being once established, no description of property is any
longer safe.—(Repeated cheers.) Therefore, though I vote
with the Hon. and Learned Member, I cannot avoid expressing
strongly my abhorrence of his principles.—(Cheering.) The
Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to say, that he was not prepared
to admit that, as a necessary consequence of a compliance with
this motion, a violation of national faith must follow still less
did he mean to imply that he was ready to grant any relief to
the agricultural interest at the expense of disturbing the confi-
dence reposed in national faith. The Noble Lord had explained,
in an incautious and premature declaration, that the national
funds were exceedingly prosperous, and, accordingly, that he
had a certain sum to be applied to the remission'of taxes. The
Noble Lord had said, " On the whole, my inclination is
towards a remission of the house tax : however, I make no
such proposition, but I leave each of you to a certain period
within which to make your claim, and propose your plan
for the relief of such interests as you please to patronize :
mark, however, that if you succeed, I won't repeal the
house-tax.—(Hear, and laughter.) A certain period."
continued the Noble Lord, " I will wait before I make any pro-
position; meanwhile, you can urge your claims for a participa-
tion in the surplus of 1,200,0001." Nothing could be more
orfair candid than this declaration of the Noble Lord—(A •
laugh)—and it would be perfect treason to any interests requir-
lofgtlZselP interests
laughter.)did not
lavailft h etrheem,
oseullvdesboe of
asnoy liberalfair
arbitrator
supposed to require a remission of taxation if the friends
—(Renewed
between the conflicting claims which • ° fre r.
might arise, it must be
the Noble Lord himself, who said—',
In very truth I think the
remission of the house tax not the best proceeding that could be
adopted." Now, if we could relieve the Noble Lord from his
difficulty by suggesting another tax, the remission of which he
must approve of, it would be well.—(A laugh.) " I spoke of
taking off the house tax (said the Noble Lord), but I don't think
that is the best thing I could do." Never was there so clear an
intimation of a wish to be ravished as that.—(Great laughter.)
" I have consulted my political economists (says the Noble Lord)
and they have convinced me that this is not exactly the tax that
ought to be remitted, that there are others which might be re-
moved with greater advantage; therefore I give you six months,
a clear stage, and no favour. Try what you can do."—( Hear,
and laughter.) He was quite aware of the necessity of main-
taining the national faith, and would not go beyond the ad.
mitted surplus of 1,200,000/. ; but, confining hi if within
that limit, he asked the Noble Lord whether ther7 were not
other taxes which might be more conveniently repealed than
the house duty'? The Noble Lord had said that the agricul-
tural interest was so intimately blended with all others that the
true way to insure its prosperity was to increase that of the
country at large, to give freedom to commerce, and promote
the active play of the ordinary springs of wealth. Did the
remission of the house-tax comply with aq of these conditions?
Admitting the Noble Lord's principles—supposing his views of
political economy to be correct, did a repeal of the house-tax
promise a removal of the burdens or obstructions of trade and
commerce ? Or did it hold out a prospect of materially aug.
menting the national wealth ? He thought not. Indeed, the
Noble Lord appeared to say, " Secretly I am of the same opinion
myself, but last year I gave a promise to take off the house-tax."
In his opinion it would not be difficult to discover a tax much
better to be remitted. The house-tax was, in fact, in the na-
ture of a property-tax, without the inquisitorial and objec-
tionable character of that tax, besides which, it applied more
to the higher classes than the window-tax, the remission of
which latter would be a greater relief to the agricultural in-
terest. The remission of the house-tax was not a removal of
duty on raw materials which burdened the springs of industry.
The house tax was a direct tax upon a principle not objection-
able in itself, and he was by no means satisfied that it was
proper to remove it. With a surplus of 1,200,0001. he was
not clear that any one tax should be entirely remitted—of this
he was satisfied, that there were many other points much better
adapted for relaxation than the house tax. A sound alteration
of the poor laws was necessary not only for the relief of the
agricultural classes, but in order to promote the best interests
of the country at large, inasmuch as the independence and corn
fort of the lowest classes were intimately interwoven with the
well-being of the highest. But the evils of the present system
of poor laws being inveterate, relief to be sound or effectual
must necessarily be tardy. It was mere delusion to hold out
to the occupying tenant in the midst of his distresses the ex-
pectation that any measure connected with an improvement in
the poor laws could operate as an immediate relief to the
agricultural interests. It was only by slow and gradual means
that any real and permanent amelioration could he hoped
for.—(Hear, hear.) Returning, however, to a point he
had nearly forgotten, he wished the Noble Lord opposite
(Lord Althorp) would appoint a Committee (or Commission,
we could not gather which), of intelligent gentlemen, to con-
sider the operation of those taxes to which the landed interest
was subject—including, of course, the expense of criminal
prosecutions—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear,)"—repairs of
bridges—(Hear, hear)—poor rates, and all local burdens, and
to report whether these burdens were justly and fairly appor-
tioned.—(Cheers.) He very much doubted whether, in pro-
moting morality, or, more correctly speaking, in punishing
crime, the landed interest had not much more than a moiety of
the burden—whether the towns did not contribute most to
the increase of crime, and the country to the expense of its
punishment.—(Cheers.) The country people did not stand on
an equality with the inhabitants of towns. For a surcharge in
the country there was at best but a slow and tedious relief;
but let an individual be subjected to a like grievance in town,
and he immediately confederated with his neighbour—com-
binations were formed—(Hear)—deputations attended at the
Treasury—(Hear, hear)—and the demand for redress suc-
ceeded. Now what farmer could do this ? He had that morn-
ing received a letter on the subject of surcharges, the contents
of which he would detail to the House. It was written by an
individual of whom he knew nothing—not having a single
friend to apply to, he had addressed him (Sir R. Peel) ; and as
the letter came from a county of which the Noble Lord (Al.
thorp) was supposed to know something—he meant Northamp.
tonshire—(A laugh)—he was sure the Noble Lord would lend
a willing ear to its complaints.—(Hear, and laughter.) Now
this letter came from a grasier—(A laugh)—who held an
estate under 2001. per annum, and who kept one horse, which
horse had been surcharged as a riding horse. The grasier ap-
pealed against the impost, but the liability was confirmed on
the ground that a grasier was not a farmer, or one who got
his living by husbandry. The commissioners were asked if
they could produce any legal authority for their decision ? Oh,
yes, they could easily do that—they had looked into authori-
ties—and so they had produced a folio edition of Dr. John.
son's Dictionary—(Great laughter)—yes, they were prepared
for the objection, and so armed with this huge Dictionary, they
hesitated not to encounter his unfortunate correspondent.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) In this great law authority—(A laugh)—
they found that husbandry meant tillage, and that tillage meant
ploughing only, and they unanimously confirmed the original
decree.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Now he did hope that
the Noble Lord would consider how he could best apply his
surplus revenue, and that he would do something for the agri-
cultural interest. He had no more to say at that time ; indeed,
he did not intend, on entering the House, to have taken any
part whatever in the debate ; nor should he have spoken at all,
but that he wished to distinguish his support of the present mo-
tion from that of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin,
whose conduct that evening strongly reminded him of the well.
known story of the elephant, which, when wounded in battle,
was generally found much more dangerous to friends than to
foes.—(Cheers and laughter.) There was one other point to
which he would for a moment only refer. It struck him very
forcibly that the high price of wool at the present time was an
exceedingly strong proof of the depth and extent of agricultural
distress.—(Loud cries of " hear, hear.") There was also an
unusual difference between the price of meat and the price
of corn ; and it was a well-known maxim amongst farmers,
that this could not last long ; the meat could not be high
and corn low, without producing very lamentable results.—
(Hear, hear.) He (Sir Robert) begged to observe that he
should strenuously resist any attempt at repealing the

torn laws ; for he would not consent to run the risk of
'an immediate and fearful revolution of society.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) He was not seeking for further protection--
he wished no protection to butter or other produce—but
he was not prepared to consent to less than they how had.
In conclusion, he observed that the Noble Lord, having the
power to remit a certain quantity oftaxation, ought to select
those taxes which directly or indirectly bore hardly upon agri.
culture. It was his duty, instead of repealing the whole of the'
house tax, to remit those taxes the removal of which, by in.
creasing the wealth of the country, or affording relief to agri-
culture, directly or indirectly, would assist that class which
was most distressed, and possessed the strongest claim to consi-
deration by the loyalty, submission, and patience, with which
it had borne its long and severe sufferings —(Cheering, and
cries of" Divide," " Question.")

The House divided—
For the the original motion, " that the Speaker
do leave the Chair" 206
For the Marquis of Chandos's amendment 202
Majority for Ministers 4
The result of the division was received with loud cheering.
BARON SMITH.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL was well aware—no one, in-
deed, more so—of the delicate situati m in which he
stood, in asking the House to re-consider a vote which it
had once agreed to, but he still thought he could produce
such lair and reasonable grounds as would induce com-
pliance wi, h his motion. In recalling to the recollection
of the House the circumstances which had already marked
this case, he could not but bear in his mind the strong
feeling which attached to the question beyond those walls.
—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") In the course of the
previous discussion, be believed that the Right Hon. the
Secretary for the Colonies had been led into the course he
had adopted by the tone which the debate was made to
assume, and this had led many independent men to vote
in a way which they would not otherwise have done. In
many respects the debate had become a party one. Now
be hoped he should gain credit for sincerity when he de-
clared he did not bring the question forward as a party
man, but that he submitted it with a deep impres-
sion on his mind of the danger which might at-
tach to anything like an attack on the indepeo-
,knee of the judges of the land.—(Cheers.) Among the
litany difficulties under which he laboured in bringing
forward this question, the least was not the fear
of unwittingly baying aught which by possibilimy might
hurt the feelings of a Judge, whose character for upwards of
thirty years had been without taint or suspicion. He (Sir E.
Knatchbull) did not despair of bringing the House back to the
full consideration of the question which he was desirous to
press upon its notice. It was stated by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin that it was an Irish subject, and therefore
that it should experience the neglect and contumely of the
House. This he (Sir E. Knatchbull) strongly and emphatically
denied.—(Hear, hear.) The interests of Ireland were not
neglected in the Imperial Parliament. Every Minister was
alive to the vitality of Irish interests, and it was a mere waste
of words to assert they found no echo in the House.— (Hear.)
The arraignment of Judges was, thank God, unusual.—(Hear.)
With the exception of Lord Macclesfield, late years did not
afford an instance. The cases of Judges Fox and Johnson did
not come under the consideration of Parliament. They were
merely made the subjects of preliminary proceedings. To
accuse a Judge of mal-execution of his solemn and imposing
functions was to declare the existence of corruption and
ignorance, wh ch, whether they resulted from premeditation,
or want of knowledge, were alike destructive of those feel.
ings of sanctity and omnipotence with which the sacred
majesty of justice should be clothed.—(Hear, hear.) The
charges of the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin
were twofold. He denounced the Learned Baron for neglect
of duty, and for being a violent political partisan. With respect
to the first, that should not be an individual which was a general
subject of complaint. He was charged with coming into Court
at a late hour. Was not that a practice which obtained in the
sister country ?—(Hear.) Was it not the general custom of the
Judges ? He (Sir E. Knatchbull) boldly, and without fear of
contradiction, asserted it was, and, therefore, must look to other
motives to those already announced for being desirous to drag
a venerable Judge of the land to the bar.—(Hear.) The Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, as counsel in the cause—
(Laughter)—has not told us that any representation was made
to the Learned Baron, that any peculiar charge was brought.
Was it fair, he would ask, to bring such accusations forward,
and charge Baron Smith
Mr. O'CONNELL denied it; he did not so charge the
Learned Baron.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL—Had not the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman done so ? Had he not made a charge of laches ?
Mr. O'CONNELL had not done so for two years. It was of
another Learned Judge.

Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL—If that had been the
case, was it not cruel for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to
have made such averments ? Baron Smith had for many years
defended the rights, and advocated the great question of Ca-
tholic Emancipation ; but now, indeed, he was opposed to the
principles, and hostile to the plans of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, and consequently he was to be denounced, and an
inquiry instituted into his conduct. The only tangible charge
of neglect of duty rested at the Armagh Assizes; and even
here, no reflection was made on the purity of his administra-
tion of justice.—(Colonel Verner—" Hear, hear.") This charge
he (Sir E. Knatchbull) confidently, in the face of Parliament,
would assert, would never have been brought forward but for
the offence committed against the views of the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin. He would not deny that Baron
Smith had so charged the Dublin Grand Jury in the terms
stated ; and he should not stand up for the extreme accuracy
of his judgment. He was induced to address the Jury, in con.
sequence of the state of the county. And here he would
ask, was every one to be amenable for every error they might
by possibility have committed ?—(Hear, hear.) The Learned
Judge had only followed the custom of his predecessors. He
should adduce one instance—he should allude to the charge of
Mr. Justice Day, in 1811, and he was not aware any animad-
version had been made on this charge. The charge was to the
following effect :

This happy state of the country is perhaps the more grati.
fying when we reflect upon the activity of incendiaries to in-
flame and corrupt the public mind. At no former period have
orators, scribblers, and printers circulated with more busy in-
dustry their maddening poisons through the land. These mis-
chievous advocates of civil and religious freedom, as they call
themselves, have engaged in their service a number of the prints
of this city, and those prints, instead of sustaining the character
of the Irish Press by liberal, fair, and candid discussion, have
lent themselves to sedition.

" The professed object of all this is Roman Catholic equalisa.
tion, figuratively called Catholic emancipation; but do these
libellers fancy that a measure the most momentous, pregnant
with the most serious consequences to the whole empire, is to be
carried by storm ?
" For myself, I uniformly and earnestly supported every re-
laxation of the Popery laws; but, in the hottest moments of my
zeal for that measure, I always presumed to think that there was
an object of still more value to the State than even Catholic
emancipation—and that is the public peace.
" The public peace must not be resigned by its best avengers,
the Grand Juries and Petty Juries of the country, to factious and
turbulent men."

Now, he would ask whether Baron Smith went farther than
this ? Mr. Justice Day had been a Judge, on whom the breath
of censure had never fallen. This was fully admitted. Still
was Baron Smith to be impeached for doing that which Mr.
Justice Day was eulogised for so fully effecting ? He protested
against the course which had been adopted. He besought the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin to be tranquil. He had
left nothing in the sister country which he had not assailed; let
him spare the majesty of justice! He should move for the re.
scinding of theprevious order respecting Baron Smith.
Mr. ROBINSON seconded the motion, in brief and ener-
getic terms.

Mr. Secretary STANLEY considered that even with respect
to the usual and general practice of that House, and in accord-
ance with it, the matter ought not to be allowed to rest here,
but the inquiry ought to be fully and fairly prosecuted. There
were, in his opinion, sufficient, grounds for having the charge
made against the Learned Baron carried before a Committee.
Besides, it would be better for the Learned Baron to hear the
charge solemnly made before the Committee, where those who
brought it would be obliged to substantiate it, and where the
accused would have an opportunity of justification. If the
charge were not fully substantiated before the Committee, they
would discharge the accusation, and, of course, honourably ac-
quit the party against whom it had been brought. On these
grounds alone, lie thought the Learned Baron ought to court
inquiry. The Hon. Baronet (Sir E. Knatchbull) had appealed
to him, and asked him what course he would pursue if he
were so circumstanced as was the Learned Baron, and he had
added, that if the censure of that House should be passed on
the Learned Baron, it would be impossible for him to retain
his situation.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now his (Mr: Stanley's)
answer to such an appeal was distinctly, that if an
accusation was brought against him in that House, and
that if it were sought to institute an inquiry into his conduct, he
would feel bound to oppose every attempt to stifle it, and would
instantly prepare to meet it boldly. He said he thought it far
better to have the accusation fully sifted, rather than remain as
the Learned Baron would if the matter proceeded no further,
burdened with half a vote of censure of that House. That, he
assured the Hon. Baronet, under such circumstaces, would be
the course he should pursue, and that he felt confident would
be the line of conduct all honourable and high minded men
would unhesitatingly adopt. The Learned Baron, he believed,
was a highly honourable man—and he might add, a high-minded
and proud man—and, of course, a man that would be deeply
sensible to any stain that might be cast upon his character by
any proceedings of that House; and fur that reason he must be
desirous that no stain should remain, and be anxious to vindi-
cate himself before a Committee of that House. For his
own part lie did not mean to cast the slightest stain on
the honour and integrity of the Learned Baron, yet still
he felt bound to express the opinion that the Learned
Baron, as he believed from what he had heard, had de-
viated in his charge from the strict path of his duty.—(Hear.)
He did not mean to dwell on the charge brought against Baron
Smith on account of what had occurred at Armagh, but he
would beg the House to recollect that the very same charge was
brought forward last Session of Parliament by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Monaghan, arid that the opinion of the House was
then asked on the matter. With respect to the other accusa-
tion, now first made, namely, that the Learned Baron had in-
troduced certain political topics into a criminal charge delivered
by him at the last Dublin assizes, lie must confess that some
very weak arguments were brought forward to justify him : he
really could not see how it was possible tq vindicate Mr. Baron
Smith, by adducing the practice and example of other Irish
Judges, nor did he think that the case of the charge delivered
by Judge Day, in 1811, was at all in point. There was a

.vide distinction to be drawn between a Judge travelling out of
his way in his charge to a Jury, and a Judge who, in his charge
confined his remarks and allusions to the nature of the crimes
mentioned in the calendar. The Hon. Baronet had contended
that both charges were the same; but such was not in reality
the fact. In the one charge, the political state of the country
was unnecessarily introduced; whilst in the other(Judge Day's)
it was necessary to do so, since seditious publications were the
objects of prosecution; and in telling the town grand jury what
was the nature of these prosecutions, it was almost impossible
not to introduce political topics. He agreed with the Hon.
Baronet about not prejudging the question ; though a charge
was brought, no one could consider it substantiated until they
had the report of the Committee of that House. Upon the
question the House had come to a resolution, which resolution
could not, without considering all the circumstances of the
matter, be hastily rescinded.—(Hear, hear.) As he had said
in the outset of his speech, he thought that Baron Smith him-
self would not ask them to rescind their original resolution,
but would beg of them to proceed instantly with their investi-
gation. They ought to proceed with that investigation, unless
previously some circumstance or circumstances should arise to
induce the House to pause and modify its first resolution. It
was on these grounds that he took his stand, opposed the pre-
sent motion, and advised the House to adhere to their first
vote.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHAW said he had new circumstances, and new facts,
and something of importance to state to the House, which he
had obtained since they had come to their late decision. When
the case was first brought forward, it was under peculiar and
embarrassing circumstances, and particularly so far as it re-
garded Mr. Baron Smith, who had no notice of the charge the
lion, and Learned Member for Dublin had thought fit to
bring forward against him. He never thought that the charge
would have had so grave a conclusion—he thought that it would
have been treated lightly, as the Hon. and Learned Member's
charges are when they are brought forward in Ireland. More-
over, he felt considerably embarrassed by one circumstance.
From what had occurred between him and the Right Hon.
Secretary opposite (Mr. Littleton) he had fully expected to have
had, with respect to the original motion, the support, and not
the opposition, of his Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.)
He was completely surprised that the Right Hon. Secretary
should have changed his mind for so trifling an alteration as
that made in the first notice of motion given by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin. In the first instance, the Right
Hon. Secretary had distinctly stated to him that it was the
intention of Government to oppose the motion, and that he
(the Right Hon. Secretary) in his comments on the charge—
for he said he felt himself bound to comment on it—would
.refrain from saying one single word that would in any way
tend to hurt the feelings of Mr. Baron Smith. Now he
(Mr. Shaw) maintained, that the two motions of the Hon.
ourable and Learned Member for Dublin were substantially the
same. The first notice of motion was to call the attention of
the House to the conduct of Baron Smith, with a view to his
removal from the bench. The motion that had been agreed to
was the same, since the result of it would be the same, and
since it was evident that no inquiry could be instituted unless
it was for the sake of having the Learned Baron removed from
the Bench. He would say with respect to the statute alluded
to by his Hon. Friend, thatif this inquiry were prosecuted, and
that House made a Court of Appeal, then would that statute
be only so much waste paper ; and in a short time they would
see the table of the House strewed with petitions from their
constituents, complaining of the judgments, and the acts of
the Judges on their Afferent Circuits. He insisted that if they
made that House a Court of Appeal, the Judges of the land
would be made the slaves of every caprice and passion that
might agitate every passing popular assembly.—(Cheers.)
With respect to the charge of the• Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin, it might be divided into two parts—the first of
which related to certain returns moved for last session by
the Hon. Member for Monaghan, but which motion was aban.
Boned by the Hon. Member. If the House would bear with
him, he would now consider the first part of the charge, in
which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had en-
deavoured to mix up other and extraneous matters.
The Honourable and Learned Member had spoken of
Nisi Pries sittings, and was completely mistaken in what he
said thereon. Baron Smith did not sit at Nisi Pries. It was
the Chief Baron who did so, and who sometimes deputed in
his place some of the Puiane Barons. The Hon. and Learned
Member had thrown out something that had occurred in
Munster while the Learned Baron was attending the Lime-
rick assizes, which was a proof to him strongly indica-
tive of the anxiety of the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man to rake up all the sweepings of the little indiscretions
that might be committed by any of the Judges. But the real
fact was that the Learned Judge in question had not for eleven
years gone that circuit.—(Hear, hear.) He would now come
to the returns alluded to, and he would show that there was
not a shadow of a foundation for the charge made upon this
point. Baron Smith had not sat in the Town Court at Mona-
ghan until the last day of the assizes. In the county of Down
he had never sat longer than from half-past eleven in the
morning till half.past six in the evening. He now came to
Armagh, and to the assizes alluded to by the two Right Hon.
Secretaries opposite, and to the statements relative thereto,
upon which they.both relied. The Learned Baron was occu-
pied about four or five days in Armagh, and he held in his
hand a letter from the High Sheriff of the county, stating,
that when he sent 'the calendar to the Learned Baron at Mo-
naghan, there were only twenty-four cases upon it. At the
assizes at Armagh the Court was opened at the usual hour, and
sat until seven o'clock in the evening. The next day it sat
from half-past eleven i'n the morning till half-past seven in the
evening. Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated that
it was the usual practice in Ireland for the Chief Justice to
take the Bench at eleven o'clock in the morning, and for the
Puisne Judges to sit about half an hour earlier. Now Baron
Smith had sat each day at Armagh at eleven o'clock. He would
come to the Saturday mentioned by the Right Hon. Secretary
for the Colonies, since upon that head a statement had been
made the other evening, upon which day the Court sat from
half_past ten in the morning to half-past eleven at night.
It could not sit later without infringing upon the Sabbath. The
reason for late sittings was, that in four days the calendar had
been trebled, on account, as the High Sheriff said, of the num-
ber of persons coming in who had been out on bail. The Judge,
therefore, consulted how he should best dispose of these cases,
and discharge the gaol ; and every one at all acquainted with
County Assizes must see that it was a less evil to sit late, in
order to discharge the gaol, than to allow it to stand over. On
Monday the Learned Baron sat at half-past 11, and he sat for
eighteen hours. He would ask any one in that House whether
it could be rationally for one moment supposed that an old man
of 75 would sit so long merely for the sake of sitting late. On
that night he had been in bed only five hours, and he returned
to his duty on Tuesday at half-past eleven in the morning,
and at until past eight o'clock that evening. He took no fur-
ther rest at Armagh, but ordered his carriage, as he had a jour-
ney of 6(I miles to perform, in order to be at his post in time—
(Hear)—and was that, he would ask, anything like a neglect of
duty ?—(Hear.) If it suited the purposes of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin—if the Learned Baron,
in his charges, had countenanced, instead of denouncing, agita-
tion, what an excellent ground it would be in the eyes of the
Hon. and Learned Member for moving to the Learned Baron
a vote of thanks of that House?—(Cheers.) The consequence
of this excessive exertion on the part of Mr, Baron Smith
was, that he was confined with illness to his bed for a consider-
able time afterwards. He trusted he had not said too much to
explain this part of the charge. With respect to the second
part of the charge—and to which he had now come—he felt
confident his answer would be as conclusive as it was to the
first part. It would be superfluous in him to remind the
House of the state of Ireland last year, and of the allusions in
his Majesty's speech as to the insecurity of' life and property
in that country. Baron Smith was accused of neglecting his
duty, and of mixing up political matters in his charge. He
did not know how many charges he was accused of making,
but in Baron Smith's last charge he had said, " that for the
last two years he had thought it his duty, from the peculiar
state of society in Ireland, to depart from the ordinary course
in his address to the Jury, and to deliver a series of charges,
in order to settle the minds of the people." The Learned
Baron commenced his charges in the South of Ireland, and
there spoke against predial agitation, but in the North lie
pointed at Orange processions, and his charges—for instance,
that delivered in the county of Antrim—contained excellent
advice to the people to abstain from those processions. He
had now come to the gravest charge made by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin, and he would show where he
was at issue with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. Baron
Smith sat with two Puisne Judges at a Special Commission,
which was held periodically in Dublin, for the purpose Of dis-
posing of extraordinary cases. The charge to the Jury alluded
to, was there delivered ; and he contended that it was the more
properly made at that time, since there was not on the calendar
any of the offences it pointed to; and sine there could
be no fear of his biassing the minds of the Jurors. The House
should besides bear in mind, that in Dublin—the very centre
of Orangeism—Baron Smith had strongly alluded to Orange
processions, and exerted himself to have them put down. In
the commencement of the charge, it would be seen that the
Learned Baron stated, that " when the state of the calendar,
or of the country, called for observation from the Bench, he had
given such admonition as the case seemed to him to require.
When, on the other hand, no such necessity existed, he had
not been in the habit of stringing together a chain of nothings,
and thus wasting time that might be more beneficially em-
ployed. A consequence had been, that while upon the whole,
during the many years for which he had a seat upon the Bench,
he had seldom charged Grand Juries, yet during the last two
years he thought it his duty repeatedly to address them. When
the alarming situation of the country did not seem to he under,
stood, he had sounded the tocsin, and sttbseqnent events proved
that this was no false alarm. The audacity of factious leaders
was augmented by impunity, and the progress of that sedition
which they inculcated increased in the same proportion, until,
upon this state of things, tardily came the Coercion Bill, at
once to check the mischief and demonstrate its extent." He
(Mr. Shaw) could not see what offence this could be to the
Government, though it undoubtedly was of great offence to
those factious leaders whom it denounced.—(Hear, hear.)
The Learned Baron then goes into a consideration of the Coer-
cion Bill. Mr. Shaw here entered into a lengthened analysis of
the remainder of the Learned Baron's charge, and went on to say,
that he (Mr. Shaw) contended that the Learned Baron was
entitled, if these were his opinions, to express them.—(Hear,
hear.) The Learned Judge went on to say "that the Coercion
Bill had been preceded by frightful tumult and lawless confe-
deracy and insurrection— secondly, its coercion produced a
valeat quantum calm; and therefore, thirdly—to refuse for_
htod
restorerepress
ratumult,hquillistuyppt
eortutehle.
nladw s ,
Fd
aefrewn clas the,
giveness to this strong measure, was to pronounce that it was
from so disparaging the higher orders Ohio country.
however, constitution, unpardonable

as to assume that those who might constitute its separate Par-
liament, would be so culpably neglectful of its peace ; and he
concluded with a hope that it would not be found necessary to
keep it long in operation." Now he ( Mr. Shaw) had formerly
alluded to a charge made by the L.arne i naron to the Orange.
men in the north of Ireland. I'h:a cliar,re had been highly
approved bf by the Government itself— (Hear, hear.) Yet
every argument used in it was the same as those used by the
Learned Baron in the charge, the consideration of which now,
on the recommendation of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin, they were about to refer to a Committee. He would
now call the attention of the House to that charge. It was
published by the House itself; and approved of in the report of
the Committee, and still it contained everysingle charge now
brought against the Learned Baron. Both charges were of
the same nature. The one referred to predial, the other
to political agitation—(Hear, hear)—both condemned the
crimes so prevalent in Ireland; both tended to repress breaches
of the peace, and both were within the Learned Baron's pro-
vince as a judge—namely, the observance of the laws of his
country. The Learned Baron was not only justified, but bound
i n duty to the course he had pursued. Even the word " vulgar,"
so much complained of by the Noble Paymaster of the Forces,
was used in the former speech, in the same sense that it was in
the speech at Dublin. They, therefore, did not only not object
to that word, in the sense used in that speech, but highly ap.
proved of it.—(Hear.) He talked, too, of tithes, and of the
resistance to tithes leading to resistance to rents, and that was
now brought forward as one at the charges against him.—
(Hear, hear.) Now this charge was not only not censured by
the House, but was treated with high commendation ; yet the
same opinions, and some of the very words, which were thus
commended by the House and the Government, were now to be
made the subject of Parliamentary inquiry. As political of-
fences were likely to come before him on that Commission, he
made a political charge.
Mr. STANLEY—It was a Special Commission.
Mr. SHA W—Both were Special Commissions.—(Hear,
hear.) If the one was a Special Commission, so was the other.
But would the Right Hon. Secretary say that more was said in
the Dublin charge than had been said and approved of in the
other charge—in the charge published and commended by the
Government ?—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Baron might be
guilty of impropriety, in thus delivering his sentiments ; but
if so, he was equally guilty in that approved of and
printed by the House as in the charge for which he
was now to be brought before a Committee of the House.
Now, after Baron Smith had made this charge in the North of
Ireland, he was sent, during the time when the Right Hon.
Secretary for the Colonies was Secretary for Ireland, on another
Special Commission—(Hear, hear)—when, if his conduct in
making them was culpable, or the opinions stated erroneous, he
should have been the last man in Ireland to be picked out for
such a duty.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the charge brought
against the Learned Baron, of keeping late hours in his Court,
he (Mr. Shaw) would ask if there ever was any communication
made to the Learned Baron with respect to themby the Govern-
ment, save and except that the Government would support him
against the charges of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin ?—(Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Shaw) could not but own
that there was a portion of the charge of Baron Smith of which
he disapproved when he read it—he meant that in which he
had spoken of his own acts and services. But though he might
be considered guilty of egotism, he (Mr. S.) did not think that
mere egotism was a proper subject for a Parliamentary inquiry
--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
himself admitted that the Learned Baron was a distinguished
Judge.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I never said so.
Mr. SHA W—lf the Hon. and Learned Member had not
said it, some other person must have said it out of his mouth.—
( Hear and laughter.) The Hon. Member then referred to the
report of a meeting which he found in the Dublin Evening
Post, of Dec. 1827. At that period a Roman Catholic clergy-
man was tried for some offence in the Court of Exchequer, in
Dublin, and acquitted, after which a meeting of the Catholic
Association took place. At that meeting an orator rose and
spoke of the Judge who had presided at the trial. He spoke
of him as truly learned, and as having talent almost super-
human. He said that his mind was like a diamond, the bril-
liancy
of which astonished as much as it pleased. vt ho now
would they think this learned and talented Judge was? The
very individual whom they were now to bring before their Com-
mittee.—(Hear, hear.) And who passed the eulogium ? That
very Judge's present accuser.--(Cheers and laughter.) In
1827, the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, which Baron Smith ad-
vocated, had not been granted, and a Roman Catholic had
been acquitted; the Judge was therefore learned, his talents
were superhuman, and were pronounced as such by Daniel
O'Connell in the Catholic Association. In 1834 the repeal of the
Union is the subject of agitation; the Learned Baron is opposed
to it, and has the audacity to proclaim his opposition, and now the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin declares he never called
Baron Smith a Learned Judge.—(Cheers) He was only a poli-
tical preacher, sowing the seeds of disturbance and religious
enmity.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member,
who was more anxious to obtain his ends than scrupulous
how he arrived at them—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—had stated
the Learned Baron to be a political partisan, and as a Judge
who encouraged disturbance and animosity; but he (Mr. Shaw)
would say, that none who knew the Learned Baron could hardly
believe him to be in earnest. Whatever slight indiscretion he
might be guilty of in his language, he (Mr. Shaw) would defy
the Hon. and Learned Member to show one act of agitation on
the part of the Learned Baron.—(Hear, hear.) He defied him
to point out one single act of corruption or of partiality, or
any other crime.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the House
if they would grant this inquiry on the evidence before them ?
Would they cast such an imputation on this distinguished and
venerable Judge—the father of the Irish Bar—the pride of the
Irish Bench, and now in his old-age, when he had reason to ex-
pect that he should retire from his long labours to peace and
retirement, to drag him from his home toanswer such charges as
were now brought against him ?—(Hear, hear.) Was there a
generous mind in Ireland which did not recoil against such wanton
cruelty and injustice ? He entreated the House to consider
who was the person accused, and who the accuser. Who was
the accuser ? The man admitted, even by himself, to be at the
head of that
,agitation which distracted the country—the man
who induced the passing a law against such 'practices, yet yio.
lated its provisions, but contrived to escape the punishment he
had incurred—the man who, at this present moment, was suffer.
ing in his own person—no, not in his own person, but in the
person of another—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—and in that
there was a material difference—what the judge pronounced to be
a libel on the Government, the man whom they could neither
keep within his allegiance nor the bounds of the law, without
inventions different from the ordinary laws of the kingdom, and
contrary to its constitution.—(Cheers.) Was that the man on
whose accusation they would drag this respectable and venera-
ble Judge before them ? Would they subvert the authority of
the Judicial Bench, to place it in the hands of despotic fiends ?
—(Mr. O'Connell here rose, and there were loud cries of
" Order, order.") He (Mr. Shaw) said, that if they placed it in
the hands of such men, they would spread panic and dismay
throughout all parts of Ireland—they would render insecure life,
property, and personal liberty—they would dispel all security
and peaceful content, and make over Ireland to the midnight
murderer and assassin, and even overturn the altars of our
sacred religion. He (Mr. S.) was an advocate for Roman
Catholic Emancipation, because he thought that they would be
content, but he now saw that they cried aloud for the destruc-
tion of the Established Churoh, and for even the life-blood of
Protestantism.—(Oh, oh.) He had been a sincere friend to the
Roman Catholics, but he would never consent to yield to them
in their attempts over the Protestant faith. He would entreat
the House to pause before they agreed to a motion which would
establish a most dangerous precedent against the independence
of the Judicial Bench. If they agreed to it, they would stab to
the heart the laws, liberties, and prosperity of Ireland, and with
them would fall all hopes of amelioration in the unhappy people
of that most unhappy of countries.—(Loud cheers.) After sit-
ting down, the Hon. and Learned Member again rose, and said
that some friends near him stated, that the impression in the
House was, that he had used the words " life's blood of Protes.
tants"—(Cries of " Yes, yes") —his words were, life's blood, or
life's blood of Protestantism.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said no man wished to discuss the subject
with more perfect tranquillity than he did, and he would,
therefore, as much as possible, in what be had to say, endea-
vour to form a contrast to the spirit displayed in the corichicling
part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speeCh. lie had
had, in bringing forward the charge, a painful task to perform,
but he gave to every Member the completest latitude for
personal attack. In replying to the observations of the Hon,
and Learned Member for the University, he would be as brief
as possible. In making the charge he had been actuated
by no personal or political feeling. He had moved for in-
quiry into the conduct of an Irish Judge, and his motion
had beep granted. A motion had been made to rescind that
resolution, and he would ask the House if they would stultify
themselves by such a course of proceeding ? A great deal
had been said about individual character; but what would
be thought of the character of that House, if it were to re.
verse a deliberate vote come to, but a week ago ? When, last
Session, on a motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the
House rescinded its vote on the malt tax, they did not hear the
end of the affair for months; and would not there be the same
result in the present instance, if the motion were agreed to ?
The Hon. Member then recapitulated the charges he had
brought against Baron Smith at first, and with little variation.
The only new proof of the charge fur neglect of daty. he gave
was, from a letter by a Mr. Egan, a solicit.er, describing the
trial of the police at Castle pollard. It appeared from this, that
the Judge did not come into Court till half.past three, and sat
till half,past seven. The consequence of which was, that one
of the jury caught cold by sitting up all night, and had been deaf
ever since.—(A laugh.) So far for the first charge of neglect
of duty. That part of the case, he thought, was proved entirely
and completely.—(Hear.) He (Mr. O'C ) had been called a
prosecutor in this case. He did not mean to refuse the designa-
t ion. He was bound in this case to be a proseeutor ; and he was '
ready with the proofs of the chargek he had snbmitted.' Who
was it was shrinking from the inqpiry ? It was the Hon. and
Learned lktember lOr the University of Dublin, and not he ( Mr. I
O'Connell). t was his party who was shrinking from the
charge; and finding he had but one chance, he endeavoured to
awaken the sympathy of the House by an appeal favour of a
Judge venerable from his years. That, in his judgment, was an
improper proceeding, and one to which the Learned Gentleman
should not have had recourse —(Hear.) In the accusation
which he (Mr. O'C.) had brought forward, he would appeal to
the House had he displayed any symptoms cf party or of factious
feeling?—(Hear, hear.) Why then was it sought to be made a
party question ? In the defence which had been set up, many
of Baron Smith's charges were referred to, while he had merely
grounded his accusation upon one—that delniyered at Dublin
To be sure it might be said that in his notice he had used th •
word " charges," He had done so, and he had done it from the

i) ilitOui-ic.

,

sole motive that Baron :riiitit', i:,,_. 7el:4...itit 't, iln ,'he Cons-
mittee of Inquiry, have any advan ois th, could bt derived
from his other charges. He had do ft' merely to gia`e them
ceore an opportunity of defending him by re nee to af/ hisicsiairges.
if any extenuating matter could be found in' Lifer/1'; .batt' the
lis
Committee, and not that House, would have been the g roper
place to have referred them to.—(Hear.) What was the de.
fence set up for that charge ? Why, that there was poll deal
agitation existing at the time in Ireland, and that therefore
Baron Smith was bound to deliver the charge. He should
&al with the fact before he came to the inference. In polat
of fact. it so happened that for the preceding fifteen Yeats
there never was a period in which there was less agitation than
at the time that charge was delivered. The charge was deli-
vered in October, and from the preceding February not a single
meeting had taken place in Ireland.—(Hear.) To the Right
Hon. Secretary for Ireland he would appeal for the truth of
this statement. He was in Ireland for several months before,
and could bear him (Mr. O'Connell) out in that statement.
Si that the charge was not to put down agitation, but was
itself the begininag of agitation. The agitation which
had slumbered from the preceding February was recommenced
by Baron Smith's "sounding the tocsin."—(Hear, hear.) Now,
he would suppose the case to have occurred in England. He
would suppose a Judge, in London, presiding at the Old Bailey,
who took upon himself the duty of sounding the tocsin, by
making a political harangue. Would that be tolerated ?
Would the House for a moment refuse to grant an inquiry into
his conduct ?—(Hear.) It had been said, indeed, that it was a
" special commission" at which the charge was delivered, and
that it was necessary for the Judge to deliver a political charge
at it. He had often heard of special pleading; but grosser
special pleading than that he had never heard. " You have
approved," it was said to the House, "of political charges
made at special commissions; this was a special commis-
sion, and, therefore, why not approve of this ?" More un-
founded reasoning could not be attempted to be imposed upon
the House. That commission was appointed to be held six
times a year, and the Judges presided there in their robes, and
there was nothing " special" about it, no more than there was
in the Recorder's own commission, where he presided in a
King's Counsel's gown and wig. At a special commission
Judges were unquestionably bound to explain the nature of the
crimes which had called for the commission—but in a regular
commission, such as that at Dublin, with no political crime
upon the calendar, what excuse was there for launching into
a long and inflammatory dissertation ?—(Hear, hear.) If the
House refused this inquiry, let ihein look to the monstrous
principles it would establish. It would establish the right o
Judges at every commission to enter into political dissertations,
to deliver lectures upon agitation, to neglect their duty,' and
say to Grand Juries—" As there is nothing upon the calendar
to call for observation, let us talk of the state of the
country."—(A laugh, and hear.) That would be really
the principle the House would establish. It was the principle
contended for by the Hon. and Learned Member for the Uni-
versity of Dublin. It was right in the opinion of that Hon.
Gentleman for a judge to dwell upon any topic or every topic
but that to which it was his duty to advert ; it was quite right
for him to spread the seeds of religious animosity, and to halloo
Protestant against Catholic and Catholic against Protestant.
That was the Learned Gentleman's doctrine. The House had
seen in that gentleman's address a specimen of the party which
he represented ; and; they might judge from it what a poli-
tical thraldom the people of Ireland had escaped. There was
—and he regretted it—a party spirit fn Ireland, and the House
had seen a melancholy instance of it that evening. But the
defeated had a right to be angry. He could not quarrel with
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman when lie reflected upon the
desperation of his cause.—(Hear, hear.) There were two fac..
Goes in Ireland, directly and mainly opposed to each other.
lint was it not desirable that justice should be fairly administered
between them ? Was there not to be at least one spot free
from the influence of factious feeling, to which both
parties might look for impartial justice?—(Hear, hear.)
Ought not the Bench at least to be free from partiality ? And
could it for a moment be held that Baron Smith had steered
clear of party feeling in the dispharge of his duty ?—(Hear.)
Why to such lengths had he gone as even to include Cabinet
Ministers in his dissertations.—(Hear, hear.) If the House
then stultified itself so far as to refbse the inquiry, after having
promised tt, who could suppose the people would have any con..
fidence in the administration of justice ?—Hear, hear.) And
the only excuse they could offer to the country for so strange a
step would be that the Hon. and Learned Member for the Uni.
versity of Dublin, who, it would be recollected, was no party
man—not at all influenced by any factious prejudice--(A.
laugh)—had made an appeal tothe passions of the House which
had influenced them to retrace their steps. When speaking or
that Learned Gentleman he did not at all mean to deny that he
had discharged his official duties efficiently and impartially.
He (Mr. O'Connell) had no personal feeling in depriving the
Learned Gentleman of the merit he deserved, and he could
readily pass over his attempts to be severe upon him ; for,
while he was rewarded by the confidence of his countrymen,
and that they were pleased to think his exertions were of ser-
vice, he could afford, in the consciousness of the purity of his
own motives, to overlook the attacks made upon hint. All he
wanted of the House was, to give fair and impartial justice to
Ireland; not to stiffer the kindly disposition which was just
springing up towards his country to be thus wantonly
crushed.—(Hear, hear.) He wanted them, in fact, to.
preserve Ireland from her friends—from such friends as
the Hon. Baronet, whose acts were at such direct variance,
with their professions.—(Hear.) He wanted the Howie not tc,,
suffer judicial negligence to pass over with impunity.—(Hear.)
He should conclude where he had commenced, and call upon
the House not to extend, in the present case, that imptinily"
which had so long appeared to be the chartered right of a patty`
in Ireland. For a long time the people of Ireland had been
accustomed to see this impunity extended even to positive acts
of oppression, and it was not till the accession of the present
Ministry that they indulged a hope of fair and im,,Artial
justice. He implored the House then not to destroy the feel,-
ing of confidence they had created, and stultify tkrpvtves by
deliberately rescinding a decision which they had as deliberately
formed.

Colonel CONOLLY rose amid loud cries of "
He did not deem it necessary to add any thing in defence of
Baron Smith's character to the eloquent defence Of him which
had been made by his Learned Friend tha IVerrxber fbr the
University of Dublin. That address had been replied to by the
Member for the City of Dublin, in a strain of scurrility—(Loud
cries of " Oh, oh," and " Order.")
The SPEAKER rose. The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
surely could not apply the term to the observations of the
Member fbr Dublin.

Colonel CONOLLY was ready to retract the observation,
which, however, he had certainly thought he was perfectly jus_.
tified in making.—(Oh, oh.) He considered Baron Smith was
very harshly treated by the course the House had pursued, for
he thought, if there was one mass upon the Irish Bench snore
free from censurable conduot than another, that man was Baron
Smith.—.(hear, hear.) The Gallant Member's observations
were scarcely audible in the gallery, from the cries of " order,"
and " Question, question."

Sir R. PEEL was quite sure that the House, upon 11)0
second discussion of the subject then under considuation, were
most anxious to bring it to a close. The House were at present
pieced in a very critical situation. The prei,edent they might
establish by granting the inquiry would be one of very dan-
gerous tendency, and if the House were convinced of that, he
(Sir R. Peel) felt convinced they would have the courage to re.
trace their steps, and discharge the order.—(Hear, hear.) Tsg
' charges had been brought against Baron Smith, into which tt
was asked to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. The Right Hem
Gentleman on the other side said that it would be the interest
of Baron Smith that the House should appoin. a Committes).
" Here are distinct charges," said he, brought against Barae,
Smith, and surely it is only justice to him to inquire into them.".
Would the House sanction the principle involved in, suph, ri
proposition ? Would the House establish a priugiple which
would hind them to grant an inquiry into every chars,e of ju.
tlicial indiscretion which might happen to, be plausibly
ported ? Was the public time to be occupied by such inviesti,
gation ? Surely before the House granted an inmsisy thp•
ought to consider whether er not the charges brought
Baron Smith involved an accusation against his impartiality or
his integrity.—(Hear, hear, hear).--The firs.% charge brought
agains: him was a charge of neglect' (Hear, hear, hear,)
l'he proof of which amounted to the fact that three days,
consecutively the Banns had devoted, upon an avcsage,.
fifteen hours to the discharge of his official duties.-..(Hear.)
That was absolutety the amount of the first chm,ge,.—that
negleet. Wen though by devoting too much tape: tO
charge of his duty he may have impaired A1)5,4424411, still is he
chargedwith having neglected it.--(Hear, bear.) He (Sir I,
Peel) did not mean to say that trials shoU,ld not commeneti,as,
early in the morning as pos,silsl,e-,,at ten o'clock suppose, k but
then, before the House concluded upon the guilt or the,impro_
Priety of Baron Smith's conduct in sitting at a latex hour, it
would he only right to inquire what were the habits of the
country.-4Hpar, hear.) Let the House itwiiire were profes.
sional gentlemen in Ireland in the habitofh,oldingtheircoosislta.-
I ions in the afternoon ?—(A laughor- was it in. the morning
and was not the habit of the bench then the result of the habit
of the bar ?—(Hear, bear.) Why then should that be
~, laid. tq
Baron Smith's charge as a crime which was the practice of ts.„
Judges merely to con,venieuee the profession. Vietna the
,ame principle as it was sought to support the present charge
against the Irish Judge, might a charge of a ',similar nature
he maintained against his Majesty's MilliAers with respect
to the early sittings of the House,--(Hear, hear, hear.)
The charge against Baron Smith imputed te„ him no crime of
partiality—contained no imneachmsntof integrity,—(Hearx,_
and if the House entertained it, they would be taking the moss
effectual means to ieterfere with the independence, and to da-
mage the character of the Irish Judges.—(Hear.) By what evi-
dence it was sought to support the charge against Baron
Smith i• The Hon. Gentleman said he would bring witnesses—.
be said he would not rest upon the official returns before the
House, but that he would institute an inquiry into. the habits of
the Judge, to show that be was accustomed to enter the Court
at a very late hOW. Would it not havebeen at least fair to have
given Baron Smith some sort of notice that such a thing was
intended ? Should it not at least have been hinted to bins, that
fault was found with those habits said to be peculiar to him ?
,But no; without the Learned Baron's having been previously
apprised of kt, a serious charge is brought against him,
greiunded upon an alleged habit, in which it did not appear
that he differed from the other Judges.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Sir Robert peel) would appeal to the Noble Lord opposite,
if it were not customary to open the Quarter Sessions
at a very late hour of the day ? He would appeal to him
to know what was the practice in his own county ?
(Hear, hear.) And if ally charge hod been brought upon
the subject, would that House think itself called
.upon ,„
institute any inquiry upon the subject ? (Hear, hear, he .1..)
what course theyvt uld
Again, let the House well confider

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