The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-01 00:00:00

FACTORIES BILL.

Mr. HARDY presented a petition from Bradford, signed
by 9,700, in favour of the Factories Bill. The Hon. Mem-
ber, in presenting the petition observed, that the great evils
that arose Irons this spier!' were to be attributed to masters
having in view only their own individual interest, which
made them anxious to put as much labour as they could on
the poor and helpless children. He could ❑ot agree with
the statements made by the Hon. Member for Middlesex
on a former occasion, that they arose from foreign compe-
tition.

11Ir. STRICKLAND, in supporting the prayer of the
petition, observed that he could never be brought to
believe that making children work till their limbs were
distorted could he productive of any good to a nation like
Great Britain. The facts which had been brought before
the Committee in the last Parliament were of such a con-
vincing nature that they never could be entertained.
Mr. COBBETT regretted that, notwithstanding all
that had been said upo❑ the subject, no true cause
had been assigned. It was natural to wish to see
matters like tie present left to he settled between
the mast. r and the fathers of the children. What
was that House going to do ? Why, to pass a law (which
he should support fur the reasons heshould state by and by )
not to prevent the master pursuing the course he was
now doing, but to prevent the parent from doing so.
By that means the House would be saying to the
w'ot Id, English parents were so cruel and unnatural that
the Legislature was obliged to interfere and prevent them
from allowing their children to work as they had hitherto
done. Now, what was the real cause why parents thus acted?
Why it was this, that they were so forced by taxation, every
thing they used was so loaded with taxation, while the
rich escaped it almost altogether, that they were obliged
to resort to those means to dr..g out their existence. He
should vote for the Bill, pinning his faith upon the
sleeve of his Hon. Colleague, who, being a great proprietor
of cotton mills, understood the matter perfectly wed, which
he (Mr. C.) did unt.—(Laughter.) Ile did not say that
he dni not understand the cause, hut he did not understand
what spinning jennies were.—(Laughter.) He did, how-
ever, know that the great weight of taxation drove English
fathers and mothers to be cruel to their own children.—
(Hear, heir.)
31r. AIETIMEN was astonished to hear such lin-
guae night after night, hour after hour, question after
question, and often when there was no question before

the House, proceeding from the Honourable Member
for Oldham.—(Hear, hear.) It might do very well
for I). litical Registers and twopenny trash, but it was
wholly out of place for that House to be toll that the
great object of the rich in this country was to
grind the poor.—(Hear, bear.) This was the
ground upon which the Honourable Member for Oldham
always stood—the sum and substance of all his arguments,
and, as an English gentleman, he (Mr. Methuen) could
not sit silent under the imputation which he was thus
constantly endeavouring to cast on that class of society to
which it was his pride to belong, and who hail as sin-
cerely the benefit of their country at heart as the Hon.
Member for Oldham, with all his professions. They might
not have the advantage which the Hon. Member for
Oldham possessed of spreading abroad their opinions, and
holding forth their brother Members to the obloquy of the
country; but they were not less sincere and strenuous in
their exertions to better the condition of the people. lie
deprecated such speeches as were m +de night after night
by the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobbett) and he was persuaded
if they had not for their object, they would have for their
end, the creating of a convulsion among the different
classes of English society.—(Hear, hear )
Mr. O'CONNELL did not join the Hon. Member for
Oldham in any imputations upon any class, but when he
(Mr. Cobbett) had demonstrated the other night, out of
the Acts of Parliament themselves, that taxation pressed
infinitely heavier on the poor than on the rich, even the
Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had acknow-
ledged the grievance. Now the case ought to have been
precisely the reverse. As to the Hon. Member's (Mr.
Cobbett's) compositions, he had a right to his
own opinions out of doors, and it was not a little
creditable to England that a person who had began life in
the humble situation, he (Mr. Cobbett) did, by the un-
aided force of his talents and intellect, had raised himself
to the proud situation he occupied as a Member in that
House. There was no other country in Europe where
that could have happened but England.—(Hear, bear.)
He heartily concurred in that cheer—he received it grate-
fully. It was a proud acknowledgment of the great truth
he had stated. As to twopenny trash, as it was
called by the Hon. Member, he could only say that
there was sometimes more wisdom in a few pages
sold for twopence than in a folio volume nobly
hound, richly ornamented, and filled with engravings.
Whatever was the cause of such anomaly directly, it was
made clear to them that parents in England could be in-
duced to sacrifice their children in factories, as it was
proved they did; it was sufficient for them to know the
fact ; it was sufficient to warrant the House in applying the
principle of the law, which protected a child against his pa-
rents, to the case. When a child had property the Lord
Chancellor interfered to protect it against its par ents. That
was too expensive and tedious -a process to be had
recourse to in the case of every factory child ; but the
latter being as much entitled to protection against its
parent as a child having property, the House was forced
to interfere and apply to its case the same principle as
that upon which the Courts of Equity acted.
Lord ALTHORP said, he rose to explain what he
really did say the other night, on the motion of the
Honourable Member for Oldham.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member gave notice that he should prove the
poorer classes were taxed forty times more than the rich.
He did not specify any particular class of taxes that he
meant to apply himself to, and he (Lord Althorp) ima•
glued that he meant to argue the whole taxes generally.
Mr. COBBETT—I said some taxes.
Lord ALTHORP—But the Hon. Member should be
aware, that in moving such resolutions as he did, it was the
practice of the House for them to be printed before
being called upon to argue them, and the Hon. Gen-
tleman was so sensible of the impossibility of the
House applying itself to the resolutions he brought forward
upon such little notice of their contents, that he ultimately,
withdrew them to a future occasion. The Hun. Gentle-
man said than he (Lord Althorp) admitted the truth of his
statement, and so he should to a certain extent, but he
by no means intended to admit that the general taxation
of the country was unequal.
Mr. COBBETT—It was the assessed taxes you ad-
mitted.
Lord ALTHORP—The assessed taxes did press une-
qually, and whenever a tax was of that nature he admitted
it ought to be amended.—(Hear, hear.) But that was
a very different thing from admitting the correct-
ness of the foundation of the statement made by
the Hon. Gentleman. For instance, according to
the scale, the Honourable Gentleman submitted that
certain large bills of exchange, occasioually drawn
by commercial men in this country ought to be on a
stamp of 95/. Now it was utterly impossible such a tax
could be laid on. Again, with respect to auctions,
if the proportions were increased according to the
scale of the Honourable Gentleman, the effect
would be not the payment of a tax upon large sales, but
the stoppage of a sale by auction. As, however, the
Honourable Gentleman intended to bring forward the
subj-ct on a future day, he would not now argue the
subject. All he wished to do was to guard against its
being supposed that he made a greater admission than he
really did.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I grant that the Noble Lord did
not say all other taxis were unequal, but that other taxes
were, and especially the assess el taxes.
A+i Host. MEMBER Stud he thought it was no part of the
duty of a Reformed Parliament to widen the breach
hetwe n the tich and die poor.—(Hear, hear, hear. )
According to the information he had rec lied, the sta e of
distress h„d been much exaggerated. The average amount
of wages in the North of England, of persons above 16
years of age, employed out of factory s, was two shillings
per day, and those employed in factories t.,ree shillings per
d,y,—(Hear, bear, and cries of " Oh, oh !")
Mr. GISI3ORNE was a M?mber of the Committee
appointed upon this subject, last year, and the whole of
the time of that Committee was occupied in hearing
evidence to support the Bill. He admitted to the
fullest degree, that it was within the power of the House
to legislate for persons unable to legislate for themselves;
but he protested against the factory evidence given
before the Committee being talren as a test of the
factory system in any measure that might be pissed.
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He trusted that whoever
might bring forward the measure, as well as the House
itself, they would come to the consideration of the sub-
ject unbiassed by the exaggerated reports which had been
so industriously circulated on the subject for some time
past.

Mr. HARDY said, that nobody could deprecate, more
than himself, the system of making observations upon the
presentation of petitions at such an hour as this. But
he could not agree that the House had not ample power to
legislate on this subject just as much as it hod to legislate
on the subject of the employment of chimney-sweeps.
Mr. COBBETI' rose to explain, but was called to order.
Lord ALTHORP moved the 0 der of the Day for the
further debate on the Irish Coercive Bill.
Mr. O'DWYER submitted that it would be much more
to the advantage of the public for the House to proceed in
the presentation of petitions.--(Hear, hear, and cries of
" No, no.") For his own part he had some of great im-
portance and of great urgency, which he was very anxious
to have an opportunity of presenting without delay, it
!emission were granted to him.
Lord ALTHORP objected to this. He would be very
glad to consent to any thing calculated to afford general
accommodation, but it the House were to allow on this
occasion Hon. Members to proceed in presenting petitions,
it would lead-to a repetition of the system hereafter, and
be just the same in a very short time, as regarded the
commencement of public business, as if the House did not
meet at twelve o'clock.
ABSENT MEMBERS.
The SPEAKER desired to know what the House
wished to do with the Order of the Day with respect to
the report of the absent Members at the call of the House
yesterday.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the Report be brought
up next Tuesday.
The SPEAKER requested the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman to say whether he would allow the Members
who had appeared to-d.y, but did not appear yesterday,
to have their ❑ames struck out of the list.
Mr. O'CONNELL cons. nted.
On the motion of Mr. SHEIL, the order of the day
was read on the
DISTURBANCES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. SHEll—After the singular manner in which the
debate on this important question had terminated on the
preceding evening, the task he had undert.ken of resumins,
that debate, and of necessarily alluding to the remarks
which it had elicited, was one of an arduous
nature. If his Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin had
made his statement to a cool and unreluctant audience, it
would have been differently received ; for his faculties of
speech would have secured for him a better hearing. It
was not a matter of surprise that the remarkable speech
of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had created such
a sensation.—(Hear, bear, hear.) Great credit was
due to him for that display of his ability; but the
Right Hen. Gentleman must pardon him (Mr. Sheil)
it he declared, that in a matter of such importance, lie
had not sufficiently confined himself to a statement of
facts—that he had not followed the suggestions which
had been previously made—or copied the example of those
who had preceded him_but had gone into derogatory
and superfluous matter, as it intended to produce an
excitement, and to direct it towards the Honour-

able anti Learned Member for Dublin.—(Hear, hear.)
He hoped he should be able to maintain that spirit
of calm expostulation which alone was likely to
produce conviction, for he intended to confine him-
self to facts, and particularly to that piece of legislation
which was -before the House. They might justly con-
sider this great and glorious island as the chief seat and
residence, not only of the empire, but of the whole
world.—(Hear, hear.) But he was afraid that he
was almost justified in saying that he had looked
for Judges in that House, and he had found none but ac-
cusers. He was of opinion, that a nation ought not to be
taught to do that which it would never suffer to be done
to it..—(Continued cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") The
present Bill contained many clauses, embracing avast mass
of penalties which were contained in other Acts of Par-
liament. There was a large addition of chastisement
made to that Bill, but it was easy to draw the
line of demarcation between that Act and the former
ones. In that respect the Bill itself was a no-
velty, and such as had never been made before. On
all former occasions, there were separate Acts of Parlia-
ment for the introduction of the Insurrection Act, for the
suspension of the Habeas Corpus, and for other pur-
poses of penalty, which it was not necessary to go into.
They all recollected that in 1819 the Six Acts that were
then passed were said to be necessary, because Ministers
could not combine and consolidate the whole mass of
penalty in one Act. He could not tell for what reason
the gentlemen on the other side of the House had
combined so much in one Act, while they found them-
selves obliged to have a separate Act relating to the venue.
He would now proceed to the consideration of what might
be called the political parts of the Bill. In this respect
the Bill followed former Acts, the difference being, it was
more extensive. It was in effect an extended renewal of
the Proclamation Act. The present Act, not only con-
tained all its provisions, but a variety of other clauses
which far exceeded in severity what a Tory Govern.
ment ever did. In what respect was it that the
present Bill differed from some of the old ones—first, in
the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act ; then the Lord
Lieutenant had the power at once to proclaim the county
of the city of Dublin. What would be the result of that ?
No meetings could take place without the previous
sanction of the Lord Lieutenant. The liberty of the
press would at once be put an end to ; for the moment
the proclamation was issued the editor of any newspaper
might be at once incarcerated, because he might be
charged with an offence committed in the pro-
claimed district. He might be imprisoned merely upon
the allegation that he had published a seditious libel, and
who were the judges of the fact whether it was a libel or
not ? Why, the courtsrnartial, which were constituted the
judges of the law of libel. The Bill was also retrospec-
tive. It extended to offences committed before the pro-
claroatien. There was no hint as to .;-- ; fee- there was
a clear provision in the Bill that the courtmartial should
have cognie ince of offences committed before and after
the proclamation. Was this right ?—Would any H.
nourable Gentlemen say that the courtsmartial should be
made judges of what was a pure question of law, which
even the Judges had refused to leave to the consideration
of the Jury ? To say the least of it, and to use as mild terms
as he possibly could, he must say that this was totally at
variance with the whole case attempted to be made out
by Government, as to the necessity of this Bill.
By the Bill as it then stood, courtsmartial might be at
once introduced into the city of Dublin.
Lord ALT HORP dissented from that.
Mr. SHEIL was speaking merely of the possibility
of the case. As the Bill now stood, certainly in a single
day courtsmartial could be introduced into that city. He
would go the length of saying that he was willing to
believe that the Right lion. Secretary did not intend,
he would even say, would not go so far as to introduce the
measure then, but how did they know how long he
was to fill that office ? Did they know who was to
be his successor ? Might not a Titus be succeeded
by a Domitian ? They must not look at who was in
office or who was not in office.—(Hear, hear.) They
were not to look at the law and how it might be
abused.—(Hear., hear.) It had been frequently said
that a despotism was the very best form of Govern-
msnt, if properly administered; but who, on that
ac-
count, would wish for an hour that a despotism should
now be established?—(Hear, hear.) By the Bill, courts-
martial might be introduced into Dublin in a single
day—into a city where not a single outrage had
been committed, thereby putting an end to all
common law, to the right of petitioning, and above
all, to the liberty of the Press.—(Hear.) Much
had been said during this discussion about the se-
ditious speeches which had been made at meet
ings held in Dublin—(Hear, hear)—but he would
ask, why hid not the Government instituted prosecutions
for any such speeches, if they were convinced, and could
prove, that such speeches were seditious ? and if they
could nor, how dare they come before that House,
and state them to be 80 ?-( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.'')
A speech was delivered last night, or rather extracts from
several speeches were read, by the Right Hon. Secretary
for Ireland, delivered by his friend Mr. Steele. Those
speeches certainly produced the effect they were intended
to produce ; but the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland
was probably aware that Mr. Steele hid delivered a speech
as strong as any matter that was contained in whot was
reed last night, it not much stronger on a former occasion.
Mr. Steele published that epeece hirneelf, put his name
to it, and went of his own accord to the house of the
Attorney-General, and said he was the author,—
that he was ready to relieve the printer of all
sort of responsibility, and was prepared to abide his trial.
Well, did Government prosecute him ?—(Hear, hear.)
Did they take any steps? Were they prosecuting now?
Why did they not prosecute then, if there were materials
for prosecution ? Why was it that they were prosecuting
now if they 411 d not prosecute then ? They were availing
themselves of speeches recently made, of the same charac-
ter, by the same gentlemen, because it suited their con•
venience—speeches as if they were the basis of legislation
—and half of the powerful appeals of the Secretary for Ire-
land were founded on such documents. He would ask
why was it they had never prosecuted a single speech that
had been delivered at the political union, or amongst the
Irish Protestants? Perhaps they would say they could not
get juries in Dublin. Perhaps the juries in Dublin
selected from a Corporation of Aldermen would show
some lack of that spirit of complaisance which assisted a
Government in the administration of justice. He found
that the Sheriff of the city of Dublin was in the interest of
the Government, and that there existed there in every re-
spect the certainty of trials free from every intimidation.
Indeed he chabenged the Right Hon. Secretary to say that
justice could not be administered in Dublin. The Right
Hon, Gentleman could not say that lie nail no evidence of
what had been said at the meetings in Dublin, for he had
employed a short-hand writer at every one of them. The
fact of his not having instituted a single prosecution,
looked very much like a willingness to permit discontent
to thrive up to the point of official convenience, and then
to produce the disturbed state of the country as the in•
ducement of this House to pass an Act of Parliament, ad-
mitted by the Government itself to be perfectly unconsti-
tutional. The House would observe that this was no de-
clamatory exaggeration,—(oh, oh.) Wily so? The
speeches have been read to the House, and trials may
have taken place upon them in the Court of
King's Bench in Dublin, but it was a fact that
Government had never instituted any proceedings what-
ever. As he was now taking his leave of that part of the
case which he considered political, he wished the House
particularly to bear in mind those two positions—first,
that the Government had not put the efficacy of the law
to the particular test he mentioned ; and, secondly, that
it availed itself of the fact to estaidish courtsm ,rtial in
Dublin, extinguished the freedom of the press, and put an
end to the exercise of the right of petition. It had been
suggested that the meetings at Dublin were the causes
0! disturbence elsewhere, but where wee the proof cf this?
Were those disturbances of recent date ? Let the House
turn hack their attention for many yeats, and they would
find that disturbances prevailed to the same extent when
associations were never in existence. Nay, they would
find this remarkable circumstance, that at a period when
a certain society in Ireland had acquired most power and
dominion over the people, these disturbances had almost
entirely ceased.—(l-fear, hear.) He would refer to a
passive in the Annual Registers of 1819 and 1820, in
support of the tact, and to which all who were anxious to
do justice to Ireland, were bound to give a favourable at-
trillion [The passage which the Hon. and Learned Member
read, stated that whatever might have been the motives of the
association, its influence had been the means of subduing
faction throughout Limerick, Cork, Clare, and many ottor
disturbed districts, restoring in all of those places a degree
of tranquillity that had seldom been known to these
counties.] If then this was the fact, was it not fair to
infer that the present prevailin4 disturbances had no origin
or connection with the meetings winch hail taken place in
Dublin ? If the House desired to know what was the
cause of these disturbances, it would not be fair to put that
then
d answertiithey
ivfrooutind,
fihisndMtahjeeys tyh'asdGboy-
encyeivpeerson in office under them. Let
receive
Comignnieidttevveshioeth thhaetjHbtemense ogfivCenotbnymothnes
Avq
elueren,,,tui oeenrnstt,
go ,000 to or any
NntoooatinasleceeaLratosaritdnh,etihicreatahciuß:seht Hon. Secretary opposite. Ask
yourselves this question—Have those riots and excesses
ever existed without those societies? Go back to the year
1776 ; you will find the origin of the Whiteboy Act in

the , tin 81°'
yeti, 10
desccipTtiroanveolsf oif
state
ehu Y
or
ftohuinnag.,"wainiral
Col!too
hour. He refers the outrages at that tuneo,,j#
(Cheers)....and he says that the Legislature efohsTill
e
Parliament which became the meridian f at., des,
which, instead of permanently removing, nitigel
disease into the vitals of the State. From tn:`
_to,
present, your perverse adherence unO
anti-national establishment of Ireland, has _ belie
to the earhe'results. Perhaps you requiree
the
5,?
to the n Tool
for Ireland hear the evidence of the Con het?
Forces—Sir Hussey Vivian was examineda9
re dence than mine. You shall have it. I, et °der'
Committee on the state of Ireland, which ty it fP
August last. lie says—" The combinatilietor
against tithes at present, and if you could !Tooedirr
range thet idle question, you would, I shouldrengledi
land pretty quiet. I think it is in other . _ Irit 0
as it was twenty years ago. Get rid of the
mss'
excitement and you will tranquillize Leland_ vos I
tation."—(Loud cheers.) But what haventos
The Secretary for Ireland, deaf to all rem: 7,4
i
sensible to every entreaty, although he was
forbear, to wait at least for the reform!. ,
passed his Tithe Act, at the close of the sessielto oil
on us with his English majorities, and tf-feet 1,011
most in legislation to which all our calaroitieda_reo
referred. It is too bad, it is not to be en 'Lo
him talk of the special commission in the Crosil
having failed, when he himself enacts suedbd
would overthrow all peace in any countrYt ance tall
the people to excesses, of which the consequeol3o
be on his head. The fault is with bin' the
measures, of equal rashness and impolicYi_a d
would now be tranquil. He first drives Irelan7,o,
and then he calls for penalties for her core last
him look back a little. Did he not in Ma.iii, ja ,
that a special commission bad proved efficaelk°4l'
instance, aria announce that Galway, Lirnerica?
were among the most tranquil parts of Irelfin. ,
Mr. STANLEY—They are so now. V°
Mr. SHELL—What ! Is this admitted ?, , 0
°,od
becomes of your charge, that the Political Vnefittloo
into cg tit
Volunteers have thrown the country
(Cheers ) How does it come to pass that Clarveaii
where the battle of emancipation and its eioct°;rolof 5,::
is quiet, if Daniel O'Connell shakes the bur' poSv
to the centre? Is Kilkenny and is the Que`cetlg
the O'Connell county ? Can we on a map trttos ti
tent and limits witb a red and green line of oil,
power ? See into what inconsistencies yob tiber'
reason of certain districts being disturbed iSt t 6,10 0
tithe was begun. The Special Commission' fruits
the seeds of peace deep enough ; and before Old ill
be produced, they were disturbed by a renew° to
tation engendered by the Right Hon. Seer!. hoi4,
kenny was the county in which the Friel' obit'
seized for tithes. Kilkenny was the countY 1°,016
Priest himself was recently arrested for ritbesGeollte
and in Kilkenny the effects of the Right Hon' lit
genius for legislation are peculiarly conspicunna)oll
mits that three Special Commissions have 00;1
needed. One—the last—has, he says, failsHs'
failure to counterpoise three instances of sue
ofltd
that single failure are we to build the desrti°Oitgt),
But read the last report of the Committee on
Ireland. The Secretary was a member.
Mr. STANLEY—I did not attend.
Dl)° /de'
Mr. SHELL—Not attend ! Good GeV., pat-
correctly ? A Committee is named by Sir ' Of
the midst of an emergency in May last,
to ca
ontsiO
state of Ireland ; the Secretary declares that C1„ll
be most important, his name is the second on the
~
Commander of the Forces is examined, 0,,,e,
Gentleman does not condescend, or is too 03" - To,
occupation rather, to attend.—(Loud cheers.) Asfl,
precious mode of managing Irish business• to r
does he tell the House? Having neglected yeti,:
himself on the inquiry, he tells the Housbei l''
quire. But what is most strange is I"„rnit,,i,
quotes the report, and egregiously imisconceil-: sr,
report states that a Special Commission bas 1100-rje,',..,
be efficient ; it recommends a continued SealYtail,,,
Jury, and then the Irish Secretary, not under° boll'
represents it as containing an approval of the a pill
all Juries. Then comes the evidence of 1,11.; 11111,:
ton, the Crown Solicitor, who declares tua-dtbej'
nary law is quite adequate to every purpose, alliersY,
Justice's address clowns the whole; in which' fed;
his convict on that the actual law will ineetheiges4
pose.—(Here Mr. Sheil read extracts from theo ? i',
was the Attorney-General silent on that oecaa- oral;
threw in his attestation to the firmness of tbe; O,
declared that a conviction had taken place i"joir
of 39.—(Mr. Sheil read the Attorney-Gerilrbsc o4ni
What will you say to all this evidence? 11,ddieL
produce a vile ballad, and fling the literary 11;fid il
town of Clunmel in our faces, and you Willa intef,;
moos letters from your miserable menials al;„bieli ro
terrorists in the police, and on documents TY oi afo
not be received as evidence in an assault 0°1,1)0%
of justice. You would pronounce sentenee.:/u
stands as a culprit at the bar before Yulooti
cheers.) You did not produce a single ducuo, t ''',,i
a name that sou dared to read, except'
Pd tli?
P. Bellew, the Lord Lieutenant for Leutb ; °stool
...commend this abominable measure ?—(Ai, t,loLl
No ) He would never do it ; he detests it ; ",i '
barely that the Magistrate will not attenu'op
because they are devoured by jealousies 5d od
Rut what say the other Lord Lieutenants? t
Ha Ihterr
from your friend Lord Wicklow—(Loud 13°,giolfel
from Lord Lortim, or Lord Enniskillen ?---kci of:
Have these, your natural auxiliaries, the Inei-rtilli
choice, who see Ireland through such an kill); oat;
ilium, furnished you with their views? llas 30.'7 P
Lieutenant, except Sir P. Bellew, addressed r°lsle
have, tell us; if not, of what use are they?
:,
name, who has advised this proceeding ? .11'in-t ea
ne: consulted a single individual ? There is 11;: I
man amongst them. Few go to Ireland, elce,',
tory absentee, to pay an " angel visit" on t"-
September and 25th of March. They know n°l
country, but, in the face and teeth of the "
will versed in Irish affairs, and of the most
dence, they build their adventurous and
lei ion on the miserable anonymous (30'
us) correspondence of the subordinate
the disturbed districts. But the Chancellor
quer says, neither Juries will do their duty oaf
attend. The onus of proof, like the smoke '.
tioned in the Act, lies on him. By the by
curious clause. It was recommended in am
a lay Lord, one of tho,e friends who would
Ministers so close as to hug A them to desL
cheers.) He recommended a clause making ,'-e
prove that the smoke of his calio was not a
insurree.ion. It is far more equit ble to put ',,
celor of the Exchequer the burden of proof at"
What is his first admission? That no sin 4. :
been injured.—(Loud cries of t".,4 Hear.") '-'
His next statement is, that every jury but on° -7
Why, is this a reason for abolishing all juri,eiri.
Carrickshaugh jury did perform its duty.
Lure to say it did not, who was not present
Y
judge of a witness without seeing him undergo
0
tiny of cross.examinat:on ? A look, a quivelr'o
ing of the utterance, may decide a Jury. 'l, to
an eye may save a human being. But I°' the
The first Carrickshaugh trial was during of
ter of 1832. The Committee on the st3t;oril
land reported in August. Not one to
said of the unfairness of the Jury. But g°os
oases. There were trials for combinatin
tithes in Dublin, Clontoel, Kerry, Cork, "o,d ja
case convictions were obtained.—(Cheers.)
the idea that Juries will not attend. Suulow-rij,
of the country : fine them if they do not site
toil/
exemplary intimation of their duty, and they I
to throng the ordinary tribunals of the conntr;e t
the evidence. But will the courtsmartial eocee
dente ? That is quite unnecessary. They Pr tbc
marily—so says the Act—and icoatenee °II Provide your witnesses with due protectio° :to
emigrate, if needful, and you will have nothing
This will cost money. Yes, but ret sin l'.toot
price. But let us come to the Statute.-
d'es it give, and to what tribunal? It ell'
Whitebey Acts, and the Ist and 2d of William'
50th of George 111., and the 27th George 111
i'
in one word, it transfers almost the entire,cr
&urn a Jury—to whom ? To a Judge ? N°.,;ters •
might be spotted, scarlet cannot. To hatrd the
their eyes are fixed on a golden perspectivels:alo", but
is at me end of every vista.—(Cheers.) horn
of men who are above ell influence; t° v 7
it
" promotion " is unintelligible ;
calm in decision, cautious in inquiry; he°Y i Olt
tra,cted, of course, no habits of rigour from
fortnate 0rt.44 4k tL
and by whom justice and mercy will be
_o foreff'Cifro.44), Peel
pered. We shall have no Magistrates,:what? 1114:e to lo
Judges, no Barristers. We shall have lie gosSilitileiPt It' 1)04,4!
tains, forsooteers. The wig, t,, the eligel:n: ' 1114 41.
band must give way to the sash, the sword, Trio, )
_pi. oleo:,
and then all the evils of the administration
ols,tbiriogleYttiogN.l
will be at an end for ever. There never wit.,nst,
.4 o.:t tts!!
this. Such a tribunal impartial ! An L igo ho V( tet; i3firitil
goes to Ireland—is visited by the gentlemen es the tf,44a,4!es!t
hourhood—shares in their joyous hospitatiOcoretv tiit.,rie
his f 1 r
cq,
goes round—imbibes opinions with
. o
inistrattott e
proceeds next morning to the adus
en.' mho

DO aril `lijr.ohti,ile,.
1d po 00 at ?
1° otetfil 44 kilt 1,
Vote ti 4 Ci,
iS POI r 01,i,14,art: tt
IY
excePt i9O r 4
the, , ati th
pottoil f Ni 14,1,,et4
e reporl,foti
4 iroP°'
,711‘,4411i,i4e
of
tyro° n':010 Va,
(anorliv itief„ tlO
autb°rffr a
Jr of the,. /
ty 110 f ,:lert)-1
°kg a*'oll,ol be
c bye, :,cd,
to
another resv
ild 0
debtb. at;ll'k,:, t liE
Jag or 1
it 0e "
a telesrag,or
,ut the ;0;11'412'1 I,y
oof as 1
J:ri'rto tvr4
ri
gle C 0
/INI, ;
510
NO, I.'°e') at\(l,"t
„. th 4
"er
f3a (.1 4.54'
iri.eirgt:o ith:Viit4,lt
n 1.13°61:4;k1,451.
teebiVtltt fr
Ederg° ‘vhea,l
ivebe r:l,4t
to iiir,,,tll
1006
tbe tq te4
•4141,t;t
the
bnite rd :14 t 1
al
00 '`.°oo 01,::ettkt.N TF,
LC 6° fig° ,14140,1rtke.„:
io e' e
Dd
iveig)eed,at t ap
1/000 fth
attend, :Voot
ter
ntY• 11,0
~b4t Y kt,,tt,ll
1 Se`ej eiv
proc ill hit)i);itk't
00 tbe it4kyt, ,141
ti
; le4 jteiklf,ll:l4
thing tO 111/4,
604'1447t\
ha P, trot f,Y tai t
eggr. tIN t
COO'. nth (I; kt,
tin sVto4,t r)4kjti:.
Ili., o; etir;14,,,14,,tti,
l'iltati„ti
; ert he i'tl,ol4t INt
rioter.? I),t tl/4t
and the 1;6,4 oft),il':11:,
;o, bot 441'411,i
horn the riPigrti'44, I(tt,
e,i, itilPSAt t
NllO ebilh, (N. hlrstiilti
e guard- 0,),
- f,..1?4,1
tlllp

tits .
Jaltie
°dist e. enu the courtmartial bench. And under
YOO trellis/stances? See, think of what you arc doing.
tre
acd to nnw employing the army in raising tithes.
(Ifea,:r°r,rove the army are to adjudicate upon them.—
aPply th Lord Althorp declares that be does not mean to
'tat, Ite_ Act to the tithes. He does not mean it ! Look
fad says"t The Irish Secretar • contradicts Lord Althorp,
Pasit,dsthat offences conneCted with tithes shall he
lla Act
01, the courtsmertial. —(He tr.) Now, look to
Or taigt`rnett9eorge M. c 57, combination against tithes.
41111,4.1'1g a clergyman in their collection by any un-
rdattarn. "'as, i 5 made a crime, and this statute gives the
let the erred
„, cognizance of the offence, because it embo-
Yoos d. s'allse in its enactments. It is then, clear, be-
ItstatelstPute,, that. this Act is to have the effect of ex-
all ts n abominatile impost by means of martial law,
ex-
dad isle:ffi.cer of the army, who has been impeded on one
Pttatsi, Ying the tithes in any way, is to try the wretched
Itgyi.Y the next -
tie v.`re deep] ,for an offence in' which his
.own feel-
.le itea! J engaged,_-( Hear, hear.) Admirable le-
it to b The Judge is not only to be a soldier, but
15titaii e a Party in his own cause. Well, indeed,
rtil it statute deserve the encomiums which are founded
es ' one . •
and
._ t word zee pi-a inimitable eh-tract. ristics.
tetal.), more and he should have done. The Irish Se-
ts!iltatlPPealad to the House for confidence founded on
:ate, He
of the Mieistry. His political life has been
1,04? e started the champion of the Church, is still its
Ned ' took affice under Mr. Canning, and accom-
N4irleat things in carrying Reform. There were
ru's't °,3e Past lives do indeed stand in a melancholy
‘4.kailaPtl.tth their present opinions. Alas, Sir, they
1,7 tee d.`nr!Y. are only depriving us of liberty, when
Istgtity. wing themselves of the opportunity of ever
tOpits:.!t, advocates. They are deserting the lofty
ii7ltept
~thea ramparts of the Constitution, on which
kettsittln sleepless watch. How will they ever he
!Itry? to raise their voices against coercion in this
c
-'elte• When the wheel of official fortune, which is
I kle t°oca s
i a trt rotations, shall have gone round. and those
Ossawr on its giddy top shall occupy a different po-
Etth wisan those who now occupy the Treasury
itstit tvaa so much dignity, shall return to the
it Ital)'•e h they once filled with so much honour,
12tlatit be deemed necessary in the midst of
07
,41 rbancesian,i which may arise even in this pros-
Nsal • -", to have recourse to measures, in abridgment
a-Iline freedom,
Ne to
ez eedom, what can they say ? Should they
itlisteti,t. postulate, may not the new Minister, with
te,Pti o„,a'e ee.ntlenees, in which he is so accomplished an
it 7 et, Pa7n this statute, and with an impressive gravity
s, stla"urtmartial clause ?—(Loud cheers.) And may
ki.e,,,r,si,7itb less effect, but greater vehemence, ex-
. ft,:sf th '' 'W. can you presume to stand up as the arty°-
atintrop? People here? Did you not abandon all your
' sOs thlonma? Did you not fling your recorded pro-
' qayeuer Winds' Did you not akandon the principles on
itot, entire political conduct was so long founded ?
1 tht suppress discussion, beat liberty to the earth,
i • Cis irepabeas Corpus Act, destroy the freedom of the
tab„s and, overthrow all justice, hurl down the or-
a (Lesrte."nals, and raise on their ruins the legislation of
„. If th guards, and the judicature of the camp ?"
; 'At1i,,711.) Forbear ! while there is time, forbear !
(Otoreatue stab with which you strike at our liberties
liss,d You will commit suicide upon your own.—
ter. t t
to 44,..cheers.)
d. Ivo A; kt;,411, f',ULAY rose and said that on the present oc-
I GOa• 0. far; tiihji,4tett little apprehension as to the effects of the
by Sir eitstile. y4lsl sedeliaered by the Hon. and Learned Member
last, to cote, tt;4l itsodressed the House at such extraordinary length.
res that the Oa Isal'attaatnight be the talents of that Hon. and Learned
!con(' andt be 0. -", his
with
the e itt„ R speech was not likely to do away the
fined, ~h a a", hi'llisre'sion made by that delivered last night by his
I too much p
ttOot • Friend the Secretary for Ireland. That speech
cheers./
A„.os,
eiltell, letZetable ; yet, though ell agreed as to its merits,
tusiness•A to ',,; ttail said that it was a speech so fashioned as to
neglect" eon Ce its-lt, htibe predisposition of the majority of that
he lit'ashis,.7l tti,,„ Of i.,-ad been said that it was addressed to the pre-
se is I.
, It'll: kilt() '.l.lglisla Members, who before had seemed in-
isconeetreert A iiiitawvete for the suspension of the laws with respect
• has be s f tt; 11 g•
wn
eessiee A 1,1 hole,. e, as an English Member, took it upon him-
wed
1•1'ad;0...1 .k,
p,., 4tite,,,,i't of the English Members of that House, to
tot al
the abolsa koi2llii, 44 charge It was mere assertion founded upon
AI of t"st iYit tess e truth. With respect to his own feelings, he
of I‘s ' ,be i edict I that ,
'e ast t , tated f. he had never once risen in that House and
dares tatidtbefos Kis feelings like those that agitated him at that
erposet h bess4/ Itti:trailsa"esould not be otherwise ; for he now saw
in Whi° , efel;il N'tiii „"1 upon to do that which he never expected to
vill rneec'harei; Itihs,t)', \4,ol'''' to do—•what he hoped never would be ne-
iom the.,„, ?i / 4ti441, ~..defellit the suspension of the laws of the Con-
at oacas°- hole6t t'eal'ati, s whether that suspension referred to Ireland or
ss of !biles.; sari;
kla,4;,alyttaelit feelings would he the same, as his sympathy
Aare 1- sass „( eitt.2.tlarl,ngs of Ireland differed not from that he felt
y.Gestlrtj), Poril ‘ittlo 4a island, He allowed that it was one of the
ce? "„tallead ttet,4sasku'rences in the life of a public man to see
iterary P:dd '"? t'ik 'i's\k'cl to advise a suspension of the laws of the
.11 'ester at "t• I. i /on wt d i al
~N etel hese laws—the Habeas Corpus Act, and the
finials atifiaisis al igt'et t'aisit-`aellich were ranked among the most ancient
merits ,io ;ria wtatlalc; which were of :er than the House of Corn-
ault ragit.ase iitt,
ti:ptcttt4litte laws, the origin of which could be scarcely
!men° ea 'i, , th ii it was lost in the darkness of ages. They
iefore Y•oleatO r"tt , Poi the infringement of which Kings had been
ogle doce t I tloeiS 1 • .
et tbli tot a tts, hieh o aristocracies overthrown, and in sup-
excee „.sci
.1,1, ttli, 1 the grandest, the no"l at of martyrs, had
Loutb ; - stswe et, i,,, p‘,
s e,4 ~h,-.7 contained within them the noblest spark
?-0.1r1:, to'iti, ti"•tt IttliKiatatsce of Englishmen. When such was the
ists it ; A, $f l'it /Ph 4be a'most useless for him to acknowledge
at attend" tetigji t 7.01.4,11 '',ltil a deep feeling of superstition that be
• _ and 44. pl. those .
wile. , ON, ,o t . Laws. Nothing but dire necessity could
ts? gal Ntast ° lay finger upon them—nothing but the
Loud 00 lilt made out of such necessity—nothing but a
illen 'Via° e the present, when he saw the Constitution
, the lthi and that he was peremptorily called uea
t an ; Tr 't ree in the van for the def nce of that Consti-
? Has al" 'en, and then only, should unconstitutional
reseed led to; he called them unconstitutional, but
they? 1°
n, and remedial measures. Such measures
e 0.
g • :a otP 1 temperary, and should never be adopted so
Jere .- liar 414 precedent. When those that made use
nd,
°A easures felt that it was necessity that
on the
„to err, and to swerve from constitu-
:now no bey should place the most circum-ctibsd
the
,f to th.• duration of the strong means they
most 'l herefore, feeling that the necessity
e
nd ' tinged existed, he had made up his mind,
ti
is (a. • „
was once made up, he resolved to at
nate an of the Habeas Corpus Act, and the
cellar ot
With but little solicitude for minor details.
duty rl°t
Et't all solicitous about, and had no choice be-
,inoke ,it7rations proposed with respect to trying
ano
ii,
r the bYe'
tber eY mty be tried by Judges without Jury,
iti. by Courtsmarti ,I, he had no prefer. nce
would
,l could not refrain from giving it as his
to death' he alteration recommended by the Hon. and
taking ' who last spoke, aas the most oajeeteet.
s not a oat all. He proposed that offenders should
to pat oa itie
composed of the aristocracy and gentry
proof 36 1e ; and in doing so, he stood alone, for no
10 s'l,
aro
4,
Whet of the Horse had made such a pro
,uts e. -
e ,
' dt", Ir.) In making such a proposition, it was
on- 7 1 proposing that offenders should be tried
II jies •
urwi Magistracy, against es hone they were told
ty. ? felt the deepest rooted artipathy.—
re4eot the Irish Members.) He spoke with
°
derg
I lln 9 he said that such antipathy existed, and
quirt'" Most dangerous to intrust the Irish gentry
ry. e go the Hon. and Learned Gentleman desired
it I°°' the to them Giving them such power would
• '
during 0;
Pacification of Ireland, and would for ever
1 elate al
;he seo ,I'Plication of beneficial measures to that
one 19 ease under deaate may be divided into two
Ea g 0
'to predial agitation, and into political
nbioti e
oli
,its Mrmee—that of the peasant, was most
a
a, soda je 4s,Palling; it was such that even the Hon.
!erg.) e tla slietriber for Dublin had stated it to he his
;ulnas°. ,
e Peasant, who, after sun-set was caught
*eat
of at' 0
..,i ought to be considered guilty of mis-
s] they (), no," from Mr. O'Connell.) If he
county' t
the Ron. and Learned Member bed
ia
rt I ge
'°51(.1 appeel to the majority of that House
md
beY F to eretood him, or, at least, if they had
ace On
!thing as near it as were certain words
otecti° ; to
vothiog : a report of his speech to certain
/list like to the words used in the report
ii, h_tielaotrt
$1
agitation called for strong coercive
tea W more so, as it was completely and ab-
It with political agitation. He said this,
Viet'.
NI, tl'sbinion upon isolated anecdotes, but upon
rge hp h4tet could not be , nied by anybody in
tire rt.
d:No ; 1, Most prejudiced person, if he fairly
Tiate" to ,q'i would allow that between the two
bat a the
'a a strong family likeness.—(Hear.)
ire, an" ,
No, bn he ':Prodti both in feature and in principle, and
al t'. I Was evidently one and the same—
° who
1:t Os Peaeeable inhabitants from being loyal
itened, i.,,, (41 .
, . svbr ee eying the leas of their country, by
, `'ll Hear" •
Judgment they had not the slightest
, the g ,elf 4,1 1 tt:lkst
. aortuna crif,f4lio 4kt t null .) The Hon. and Learned alem-
'9 Aio Jig, ll'Ao4,h* 11.,•ktly not risk his great legal reputation by
're'„ .het •
lit IC to It'i:vsti Foot
of the inhabitants of a coun-
the 010:Plitt/at 14,15'1%i:tilt! t'aht to sit as judges over the other
al the 03, evlatat tvh,411,4,1 ,i.du no such thing. It would be mon-
o'', Of Iril:ll4PsY aiibliti 044e,,stilt t;4l:'.t the 'members of revolutionary
was soft, itee,ela oat I,': 4.' le 4 to judgment over that part of the
a Englis 09 as ilitlL le nee allegiance to the law of the
" al ble flikkil ttletitsfli c &tilt' unarmed body, who upon a future
men ,be yeeto ot
.to t.,.
tality, 4' „t,
,i tki,,ltto die,„"'e up arms—are 'bey to take tre on
his c/t""aar 'tel dieta"ters and legislators at the same time,
: of 1 e dicta'
Won )Ad to a whole nation ? When such
Was
organized and instructed how to

lays, w:cess,
of fg'
despoti'lljtbe
mittee On

proceed, it Wds very easy for the leaders of it to deprecate
in that House the outrages perpetrated by Whitefeet.
It was very easy for them, whilst they pretended to cnn-
demn predial agitation to keep up political agitation, and
some of them had substantial reasons for so doing, since
they found it a very lucrative trade.—(Cheers.) Just
see what a Whitefoot leader may say to a political agitator,
and what he had a right to say," You are a leader for the
redress of wrongs--so am I. You are unarmed—so are
we ; but we keep our arms under lock end key, ready to
take them up when the time arrives for their use, and you
do nearly the same. There is no difference between us,
and you have no right to blame us for following your ex
ample." Certainly not—there is no difference between
them—their aim is the same, and they are actuated by the
same passions. Let the matter be considered as a ques-
tion of morality, and the resemblance will still remain.
He would ask those political associations, and the White-
foot leader might put the same questione—" Who made
you Judges aver your fellow-countrymen ; what right have
you to determine on taking lip arms, and forming your.
selves into what you call a Naiional Gua'd ? You say
you have grievances to redress. So have we. We have
woods to cut down, cultivated grounds to uncultify, houses
and farm-yards to burn down, stewards and landlords to
dismiss ; and we do this with the same right that you
have to take upon you to cure your wrongs —(Lou.
cheering.) He would confidently repeat, that the out
rages of the Wbitefeet were inseparably connecte I with
political agitation ; and that, consequ, ntly, both the one
and the otb-r were fit objects fir the interference of
the Legislature. It was not freedom of discussion that
political agitators desired ; th, y desired nothing but to
establish and perpetuate a system of terror They were
a sell-elected tribunal, arrogating to themselves the pas er
of every species of tribunal ; and, above all, they declared
themselves a crimin tribunal, since they tried offences
committed, as they said, against the people.—(Cheers.)
The truth was, that these Associations were possessed
of all power; they had no want, except the want of re-
sponsibility. He would as soon trust to them, as soon
be under their domination, as of those ancient secret
societies of Germany, who sent their spi,s abroad, and
despatched their assassins to the right hand and to the left.
These Associations compared themselves to the volunteers
of 1782, and to the Unions of England. Nothing could
be more grossly incorrect than the comparison. He
knew of no body to which they could be compared—at
least no existing society. The only one that he could
recollect was one which, by its applications, had usurped
all the powers of Government, and which, through the
medium of its dictators, spread tyranny over the unhappy
country in which it existed. He meant, as might he
easily seen, the Jacobin Club of the first French Re-
volution. It was to that Club, and to that only, that
the present Political Associations in Ireland could he assi-
milated. Let anybedy read the debates and speeches of bath
Societies, and the closest application will be &mid in
the comparison. A Member of this Irish Association de-
clares that be will stand upon a mine, to the train of
which the match has been applied, if the great leader of
that Association commands it. So among the Jacobins
were found those who would drink poison rather than
disobey the wishes of their Chiefs, or separate themselves
from their political fortunes.—( Hear.) Since those As
sociations followed the career chalked out to them by the
Jacobins—since they imitated them in even minute details
should the present Government imitate that weak Admi-
nistration of France, which shut its eyes upon the designs
of those Jacobins—allowed them to wax powerful, and at
last to dictate to all without control ? He hoped not,
and that it would be taught by experience, and de-
stroy the evil in its bud. He would ask a reformed Par-
liament whether it was to see such power assumed by any
body of men that they were elected—he would ask them
as freemen, whether they could sanction the existence of
such associations? In former times there were brave
men who had resisted the tyranny of the Stuarts, but
when they saw in a portion of the aristocracy a fresh
tyranny springing up, they naturally enough said, that it
was not " to pay the wolf homage that they had struck
the lion down."—(Loud cheers.) The same thing would
now, he hoped, occur ; and a liberal aristocracy would
not be combated, merely that another oligarchy might
spring up.—(Hear.) That new oligarchy was making
every effort to grasp power ; and was becoming formidable,
as much by the lenity exercised towards it by Govern-
ment, as by its own ambitious audacity. He hoped to see
it cut down before it arrived at its full growth. It was said
that the adoption of those measures would be taking liberty
aw iy from Ireland. What liberty had they to take away ?
Something like that possessed by the Kentucky man—the
liberty of wallopping his oivn Negro." A pretty
liberty they bad to take away ! A liberty that was en-
forced by arms—a liberty that prevented buying or sell-
ing—a liberty that flourished in the midst of conspira-
cies—a liberty whose insignia were plunder and assassina-
tion, That was the liberty Ireland was going to be bereft
of ! Never was that word mare profined—never was
that sacred word of liberty more foully abused than it was
at present in Ireland. The history of Europe gave hut
one example of such profanation ; that was, when over
the doors of the execrable Jacobin Club wi re embees ned
the words, " Liberty or Death." The Government were
now defending real liberty, when they asked for those
coercive measures so much cried out against. What
were the Habeas Corpus and Trial by Juty intended for ?
Why, to be sure, they were intended to be the means, and
not the ends, of protecting life and property ; and
they became worthless the instant they afforded pro-
tection to villains and depredators.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Consequently, the suspension of them, in cases like the
present, was serving the real causes of liberty. During
the course of the debate, allusion had been made to former
measures of this kind. But no allusion could apply—no
comparison he correct—since no Ministry has yet applied
for such measures who stood upon the same grounds with
the present Ministers.—(Hear.) The present Minister.

had the confidence of the nation, and would not ahule

Trey asked for great powers to be granted them ; but, at
the same time, they felt that they were responsible to a

Reformed Parliament for the use they made of thus. powers.
Bes des, they asked for ti ose pow.-rs in order to be aide
to apply to Ireland those measur, s of redress which
they knew she was entitled to. It hart been argued, last
night, against Ministers, by the Bon. Member for Lincoln,
that, with them, it was " to-day, concession—to-morrow

coercion. A quick alternation of kicks and kindness—
coaxing with the hand, and spurring with the heel." Such
an accusation did not come well and consistendy from that
lion. Member, as he would cord' ss, if he recollected his

worIM on the address to the throne. He said then, '• I

you ask tor coercive powers, why do you nut, at the same
time, hold out measures of redress ?" That w s the vet),
thing Government did ; it agreed with the Hon. Member's
first thoughts, which, in his humble opinion, were better
than his second ones. The Governmeto, en ask,ng for
those measures, gave a strong proof of consistency—a
strong proot that it acted upo❑ the principles of Reonm.
It was a proof that, when it recommended Reform, it had
not dune so in order that such scr nes might be seen as
were acted at Nottingham and at Bristol. They had ie

commended Reform as a remedy, and they were deter-
mined it should not he abustd. They would app!y it to
the two different di,rases that existrd in Inland—to the

grievances complained of there, and to ihe system of out-
rage practised there. To the latter, which was a

temporary paroxysm, would be appl'ed temporary remedie.,
to the former, which were founde upon deeply rooted

discontent, would be applied an efficacioUs, speedy, and yet
permanent cure. At all evt-nts, the present Governmenr,
in asking for coercive powers, were only following the

example of the Administrations that went before them. He
considered that the present state of Ireland might be aptly
compared to the state of the Highlands of Scoland eighty

•
years ago. At that period there existed in the Highland.
two species of ngitation—predial and political agitation.
The one was carried on under the influence of Lord Lovat

—that resembled the political associations of Ireland at the
present day. The other, the principle of which was
burnings, robbery, and murder, was conducted by the
noted Rob Roy. Though those associations were dis•
tinet in ene sense, they were alike in another, and a
firm and resolute Government broke up the system of or-
ganization under which each was conducted. Neither the

sentiment of family kindness upon which the one was

based, nor the system of terror upon which the other was
founded, could resist a vigorous administration of the laws.

And what is now the consequence, he would ask, of having
then had recourse to means of coercion? Let the High-
landers be asked : there would not be found one among
them who did not bless the severity used towards them at

the period mentioned, and the salutary wisdom that dic-
tated that severity. Ile wished it to be understood, that
he had no desire to disouise the appalling features of the
present measure. Though it were worse, though it were
nothing but a mere experiment (if an experiment, it was
at least experimentunt in corpoT though its fea-
tures were still inure hid,ous, yet was it less appalling
than the state of things in Ireland. It asked for courts-
martial, but could anything that would result from them,

by any possibiity, be half so despotic and arbitrary
what may be expected from the new National Guards

already organized and prepared to extend their sway ? It
bad been complained that this measure would prevent the
peaceable inhabitant from stirring beyond his threshold
after nightfall. So it would ; but be begged leave to ask,

was it not much better that the peasant should be so pre-
vented by the laws, than that he should be so prevented
by the ruthless assassin ? Did this law subject the inha-
bitants of Ireland to half the tyranny the Whitefeet did?

It subjected them to many harsh things, and amongst the
harshest were domiciliary visits; yet he thought they
would be less "complained of at the hands of the servants
of justice, than when paid by bands of Whitefeet. He
knew which species of visit he should , prefer ; and he
emphatically declared, that let those measures he stigma-
tised as they might, let them be branded as an Algerine
Act, he would far rather live in Algiers, in its most de-
spotic day, than he would live in the county of Kilkenny
at the present time.—(Hear, hear.) There was last year
as ample a suspension of the laws in some parts of Ire-
land as was now demanded ; and yet the powers it gave
were not abused. The cause of that suspension was (as
we understood the Hen. Gentleman) to prevent the further
propagation of cholera. Now that be mentioned that
terrible scourge, he would say, if he had to make a
choice, he would rather see it rage in England as it had
in Russia and in the East Indies, than see what was
hourly passing in Ireland ;—sledge-hammers at the door
of the peasant--men murdered, the bodies of whom no
one dared to touch—and various other outrages. He
repeated, if he had a choice to make between those terrible
scourges, h- would pray with the Hebrew Kng, << Oh,
let me fall into the hands of God, rather than into thi,
hands of assassins!" He feared he had but imuerfectiv
expressed his ideas and opinions upon the question before
the House; but whatever I.e said, he begged to state it
had no connexion with his official capacity,
.but was the
expression of his sentiments as a Member of that House.
It there were questions upon which a Member of that
House could compromise his opinions, it was not on a
question like the present ; and he considered, that when
fie voted for a suspension of the Habeas Corpus and the
trial by jury, he was not in any way compromising his
opinions. As a proof that it would not be an easy matter
to compel him to make a compromise of his opinions, he
would stare, that on the evening his Noble Friend (Lord
Althorp) brought forward his measure of Church reform
in Ireland, he came down to that House determined not
to support it unless it were satisfactory. In spite of the
respect he felt for the quarter from whence th t measure
came, he would have declared his sentiments fairly as a
Member of Parliament, and opposed it, if his conscience
had told him he ought to do so. Upon all occasions be
would act with the dignity and tree will that became him
as a Member of that House ; he would do to in defiance
of all that might be said, and on• the present occasion he
would sand ue for the powers which the Government
demanded.—(Hear, and cheers.) When he said this, his
said it with the firm conviction that he could defend his
opinions and his acts, which were the results of these
opinions, before those to whom he owed his seat in that
House, and to whom, above all others, he considered him.
self more immediately responsible. Those constituents
understood liberty in the way all rational beings under-
stood it, and they never would confound it with the maniac
ravings of those who neither understnod it, nor appre-
ciated its blessing.. He would conclude by stating, that
though it might happen to him as it had happened to
others, to become the victim of popular injustice, he
would at least carry with him the inward consolation,
that he had never been one of its flatterers.—(Cheers.)
Mr. ROMILLY, in rising, said that, as a young Mem-
ber of the House, and when so many were desirous to
state their opinions of the great question before them, he
felt that he was not entitled to take up much of the time
of the House. In viewing this question, it was neces-
sary to look not only to the evils pointed out by his Ma-
jesty's ]Ministers, and the evils mentioned in the report—
both of which he admitted had strong claims on the
serious attention of the House—but they had also to
consider whether the measures now proposed by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers would have the effect of removing those
evils. He had gleaned out the difficult cases given in
that report, and the evidence on which it was drawn up;
but he could not come to the conclusion that the measure
was necessary. No one was more ready than he was to give
credit to his Majesty's Ministers for the several good mea-
sures which they had proposed and carried through Par.
liament for the good of the country; but with all his
good disposition towards them, he could not but hesitate
when such a measure as this was proposed—he could not
but ask whether there were no other way to improve the
state of Ireland ? And when be saw the people of that
great country. so determinedly opposed to the law, he
could not but inquire whether the law to which they were
so generally opposed was deserving of being retained—
(Hear)—and before enacting obedience, it was worthy to
be obeyed. lie admitted that which was stated by the Hon.
Member opposite, for it admitted of no doubt, that the laws
ought to be enforced, and that the Government should
have the power of enforcing them in the most complete
manner against such heinous crimes as murder and rob-
bery. And if the provisions of this Bill were confined to
persons guilty of crimes of that description, it would meet
with no opposition from him ; but he objected to it most
strontly in so far as it involved all classes of his Majesty's
Irish subjects, and in so far as it proscribed the innocent as
well as the guilty.—(Hear, hear ) With regard to domi
ciliary visits, he would willingly go so far as to allow that
those who wer, out beyond a certain hour at night, and
were found our, should be considered as guilty of a misde-
meanor ; but he thought that clause should be confined
to those who were found our, and that the houses of the
people shculd not be liable to be searched to see whether
or not they were at home. He considered those domici-
liary visits as tyrannical and oppressive, and be bad no
doubt that, in practice, they would be found more haras-
sing to the orderly than to the ilisorderly.—(Hear, hear,)
It was intended by this clause of the Bill, that as the in-
mates of a house would generally be known to the police,
they should know if any one of them was absent. But
would they know where the places of resort of the ab•
senters were if they were among the dismderlies ? Did it
nut appear, on the showing of the Right llon. Member

opposite, that the persons who created the disturbances
tv, re migratory, and that these places of meeting were
changed continually? How, then, should these domici-
liary visits have the effect of thscoveying these plac,s
of resort, it they went to all districts of the country,
spreading alarm and disorder? He therefore thought
he was right in saying that this clause wou'd
more harassing to the ordery than to the disorderly;
taut when the persons to be protected are to pay so crest
a price for the protection, would it nut he well to inquire
of those for whose protection the measure is intended
what their opinion of it watt?---(H ar, hear.) This BO
was for the protection of tiie people of Leland. Would

. .
it not 1,,e right and proper, then, that they should be con-
sulted? Alight they not consider the remedy worse th
the disease? When they were called on to pay such
price for their protection, was it not hut fair to inquire i
they thought the ',lice n.o hieh ? Was it not cl-ar that

the autholizAl breaking open of house., was nearly
great a hreacii of law as imihorized murder?--(Hear.)
And since they were cabed on to pay that prig- ho- their
i•rotection, why not ask, in the first plae,, whether or
not they w. re willing to do so ? He would then beg to
ask if the Minister hid nia.!e out a cise high entitled
them to ask that House to pass this B II? Had the House
been put in possessi,n of inform ition which would justify
it in passing it ? There was a retina of the Committee
ppointed to examine into the sate of Ireland before
them, and there was a great mass of evidence attached to
that report, but did that raid. nee appear to bear our
Ministers in their proposition ? So Cri was that from
being the case, as it appeared to him, that the whole
tenor of the evidence yeenied rather to he in favour of

pursuing the ordinary eour,e of the law? He thought'
that the report went further in its recutomenilation of

strong measures thin the evidence warranted, and the
ineasure further than the report.--(Hear, heir.) There
. _ _

was one branch of this Bill of a most damp roue cha-
racter—he meant the courstnarti +I, which, from their

peculiar construction, were most obnoxious.

The sus-

pension of the Habeas Corpus Act %, as of itself a suffi

ciently striking measure, but it was more particularly
so, when it was seen what immense power was de-
puted to courtsmartial by the suspenttion of that Act.
The power was not deputed to persons practised in
the law, or who were in the habit of judging of causes, or
of understanding evidence. Even to such men he would
hive some hesitation in deputing such a power, but least
of all w.•uld he give it to a class of men who were princi-
pally distinguished for their unreflecting obedience.—
(Hear, hear.) He was much surprised with the doctrine
mooted by the Noble Lord opposite on the former evening.
That Noble Lord stated, that if they were to violate the
Constitution it was essential to go far, lest it might be
considered an inroad—and that it was more dangerous to
enact a moderate measure than a violent one. He felt
that he would not be doing his duty if be did not express
his abhorrence and detestation at such a doctrine. He
objected, too, to the misconception which such a statement
must create in the House and in the country, of the real
objects of this Bill. If his Majesty's Ministers were de•
termined to overstep the bounds of the Constitution, he
thought that they had timer avoid deception, and admit
clearly and openly that they did go beyond the bounds of
the Constitution. It would he as easy to do so in the
slightest as in the greatest violation of it. If they are to
violate it at all, let thorn declare that they do so, but let
them do as little mischief as possible. That whole argu-
ment just amounts to this--that Ministers were deter-
mined to enact such a measure that no Ministers who fol-
lowed them could ever dare to attempt.—(Hear, hear.)
lie really believed that such measures were merely the
forerunners of more measures of the same description ;
and if this one were allowed to pass, there would be
others in continuous succession. He believed that the
present Bill would never have been introduced, but

for the measure of the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act, in 1807. That Act was cited by the present Mi-
nisters, as a reason for passing the present Bill; and if the
present Bill were passed into an Act, it would be cited,
in conjunction with the one of 1807, as a reason for
passing similar Acts.—(Hear, hear.) As he had men-
tioned the Act of 1807, he would remind the House that
it was passed at a time when Ireland was in a state of
erect insubordination, and when we were at war with
France ; nay, even Mr. Grattan stated it as his firm be-
lief that there was a French party in Ireland; yet the
measure then required was not so strong nor so arbitrary
as that which is called for by the present Ministers, in a
time of profound peace. As connected with that sub•
jest, he would beg leave to read a passage to them from a
Paper which he held in his hand ; and in doing so, he
felt that it was necessary to make some explanation to the
House, as it was the opinion of his nearest relative—
(Hear, hear, and cheers)--on the measure introduced in
1807. On that occasion, he felt as solicitous to show his
atihorrence to the measure then introduced as he would
have done to the present. After stating the part which
NIT.. Grattan took in that measure, he proceeded For
myself, the measure appeared to me to he so imoo itic, so
unjust, and likely to produce so much mischief, that I de
termined, if any person divided the House, to vote against
it. Sheridan did divide it, on the question that the Bill
do pass, and I found myself in a minority of ten, including
the Tellers. against one hundred and eight. The mi-
nority included the name of Sir Arthur Pigott ('be At.
torney.General). I did not speak upon the Bill. That
it would pass, whatever might be said against it, I
could not doubt; and I, therefore, thought that to
state my objection to it, could have no other effect
than to increase the mischief which 1 wished to prevent.
What triumphant arguments will not this Bill, and that
which is pending in the House, F for preventing the
people having arms,' furnish thediaaffected with in Ireland.
What laws more tyrannical could they have to dread, if
the Ft ench yoke were imposed on them. What worse
could they endure, than to be exposed to domiciliary
visits, to hive their houses broken open in the dead of
night, and to find insolent superintendents forcing their
way into every bed-chamber, to see that none of the
family are from home, and to have those, who, at such a
season, shall be absent, without being able to produce
witnesses to prove that it was upon some lawful occasion,
subjected to transportation as felons to New South Wales ?
Can it be expected that men will be so blindly alached
to a bondage, thus cruel and degrading, as willingly to
shed their blood in the defence of it? To adopt such a
measure, at a moment like the present, appears to me to
he little short of madness. Unfortunately the measure
had been in the contemplation of the lite Ministry; they
had left a draft of the Bill in the Secretary of State's
Office, and they were now ashamed to oppose what some
of them had themselves thought of proposing. The At.
torney and Solicitor-General of Ireland had approved the
Bill, but Pigott and myself had never heard that such a
matter was in agitation till it was brought into the House
by the present Ministers." He felt that some apology was
necessary for having trespassed so long on the House with
these remarks, but he thought that he would not be
doing his duty were he to omit them. He could not be sup-
posed by any one who knew him to make them with
any factious motive, or from feelings of hostility to the
present Government. So far was that from being the
case, that he felt the greatest gratitude to the Govern•
ment for several useful measures already passed, and for
others which were now before the House. To the
Noble Lord (Althorp), he felt more especially grate-
ful for his invariable care of the rights of the people,
and the judicious laws which he had obtained for
the benefit of the poorer classes.—(Hear.) There were
many others amon4 the Noble Lord's colleagues whom
he had the greatest respect for; but when he allowed
that lie respected a large portion of them, be could not
forget that there were among them men who were in
the Administration of 1807—an Administration which
passed the arbitrary Act against Ireland to which he had
alluded, without even communicating their intentions to
their own Attorney or Solicitor-General. He thought
that the present Bill should not be carried without some
further information upon the subject, at the same time
that lie could not consent to support the amendment of
the Hon. Member for Lambeth. If that amendment
were intended to throw out the Bill, lie considered
that the Hon. Member would be acting more manfully if he
were at once to declare his real meaning and propose that the
Bill be read that day six months. He (Mr. Romilly)would not
say that he should support the Hon. Member even in that
amendment; but as it was plainer, and would at once
show his meaning, he thought it the most eligible man-
ner for him to act.—(Hear, hear.) There was another
subject on which he wished to say a few words. He had
heard with feelings of regret the continual attacks made
in the course of this debate on the Hon. Member for Dub-
lin.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He bad not the honour of
knowing that Hon. Member till within the last half hour
—he was so utterly a stringer to him that he did not
suppose that that Hon. Member even knew him by sight,
and he did not mean to give any opinion regarding his
conduct out of that House; but he felt that in the die
cussion of a great question of this nature it should not be
made a personal question.—(Hear, hear, hear.) They
ought to recollect that it was a question which involve

the rights and liberties of one-third of their fell-w•subjects.
It should therefore be discussed calmly and deliberately,
and without the intervention of anger or paasion. Their
real object should be to endeavour to conciliate the people,
and not to force tbm, by the intervention of martial law
and coercive measures, to succumb to the law. And that
law would ever be found the strongest which governed
not by force, but by love and respect deep•seated in the
hearts of the people.—(Cheers.)
An /lON. MEMBER. (nsme unknown) said that he never
since he bad hail the honour of a seat in that House, felt so
perplexed as he was as to the vote he should give on the
present occasion. The question was whether he should
on the one hand consent to the further cuttailment of the
already too much curtailed liberties of Ireland—whether
he should convent to the placing of that country under
the opera ion of martial litv, and place the extrarirdinaly
powers demao,:ed by the Bill in the hands of a Viceroy,
is whose character, he would f,eely admit, be had no

confidence ; or, on the other hind, dispute the point w th
the Government as to the necess,ty of thi- measure, and
the sufficiency of the present laws to protect the lives and
proper'y of the pe.iceable subjects in Leland, by which lie
might leave that country exposed to all the horrors of the

outraees which msy tike place. This was the dreadfu]

ahernative in which- he was left. He thought, however,
on conshleration of the tnatt.r, that the circumstances of
Ireland did not require such a rigorous measure as was
how propmed. He was su•e, at trot, thit it a less ri-
gorous Ineastoe had been brought forward t.vo ye irs ago,
it would have hail a better effect than the pr. sent severe
measure at this period. He had heard it aigue.l by gen-
tlemen in that House, that the misery of Ireland was
produced, not by political. but ty predial otitr igt,. That
was the argument on which the Hon. Alember for Duhl

',retried prinvirilly to rely. It was tie ft st time be
had heard of predial without political, o: political witb,,ut

preriid di.turi3ance.i. But tt:e Hon. Alrtnber for Dublin,

while. l e m:ide this assertion, piove•l by hip own wor,ts,
that there was en truth in it, for be rani that he had
recommended to the volowe.rs tO prevent riots. It that
advice had any effect, it implied either that the volunteers
had the power to ma down disturbances, or at leas by
th•ir countenanct-, that they hid the power of exciting
them. On these grounds he considered that the assertion
of the Non. Menmer tor Dublin would not bear the test
of inquiry. lie would give a very reluctant consent to
the measure.

Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOIt said it had been said that
the agitators were the cause of the disturbances, and of
the unpopularity of his Majesty's Government.---(No, no.)
He (Mr. O'Connor) had been a great agitator; and he
would say that he had never mentioned the names of any
of the members of his M ijesty's Government on such
occasion but once, and then it was to propose a vote of
thanks to them. A Noble Earl had stated in another
place, that disturbances existed in the counties of Kil-
kenny, Cork, and Tipperary. He denied that there were
any disturbances in the county of Cork—(Hear, hear)—
and be had no doubt but the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
could give him a similar testimony as to the state of that
coun.y. He would not attempt to follow the Han.
Member for Leeds in his hop, step, and jump from
England to Ireland, thence to Scotland, and from Scotland
to Egypt—he would permit that Hon. Member to pass
the time with these amusements; but, alluding to the
Bill, he denied one of the arguments on which its neces-
sity was founded—namely, that juries could not be found
who would convict. The case of Sir G. Bingham, alluded
to by the Hon Secretary for Ireland was not at all in
point. He had many other objections to it. The
measure was most tyrannical, arbitrary, and sanguinary,
vet this was the measure introduced by men who had
*previously so distinguished themselves as Reformers,
and the enemies of oppression and tyranny.—(Hear.)
Why was not a remedy for this state of crime proposed at
an earlier period, when, as they themselves confessed,
milder measures would have been found efficient for the sup-
pression of the disturbances? Why had not this been done
then ? The reason was, that during the last two years the
English Reform Bill has been pending, and, therefore,
while this has been occupying the attention of Ministers,
the cry of agitation was " music in their ears ;" but naw
that this all engrossing object hail been accomplished—
now that the cry of "agitation in Ireland" was no further

wanted by the Ministers, it was no longer music in dieir
ears.—(Hear, hear, from the Irish Members.) As to the
cry of intimidation, he believed that attempts at intimi-
dation would principally proceed from those who wished
to prevent Juries from serving, in order to give a colour
of excuse for the Bill. He would not trouble the House
with his own views of these atrocious measures; but he
would produce the strongest argument against them in the
former opinions expressed by those who now so strongly
advocated those measures—he would convict them in their
own words. The Hon. Member then read extracts from
Hansard, of a spesch made by Dr. Lushington in 1822,
in the House of Commons, against the Insurrection Act,
wherein the Learned Gentleman expresses his firm be.
lief " that there could be no prevention nor remedy
in any Insurrection Act, but that such a Bill would
engender rather than destroy outrage."— (Hear, hear.)
The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. F. O'Connor) conti-
nued, that the root of all the disturbances and outrages in
Ireland might be traced to the spsech of the Right Hon.
Secretary for that country, wherein he had promised the
extinction of tithes, a promise which he had since 'ailed in
fulfilling ; and this w a the real origin of the increase of
crime. Ile trusted and expected that such measures would
be forbidd-n by the mighty voice of the people. As soon
as the agitation of the Reform Bill had passed over, the
Ministers had the audacity to come before a Reformed
Parliament and ask them to stifle liberty in. its infancy;
but they would find their error ; they would find what
the voice of the people can do. No mai knew better
what it could do than the Noble Lard who was
at the head of the Ministry. The voice of the people
had driven Caius Marius' from Rome.—(Shouts of
laughter and hear, hear, from the Irish Members.)
Since the name of Rome was distasteful to them,
he would bring them nearer home: the- voice of
the people had brought Charles the First of England to
the block—(Hear, hear)—it was the voice of the people
which drove Cha.les X. from his throne ; and it was the
voice of the people which passed the Refoim Bill--
( Hear, hear)—and the voice of the people would not, on
this pressing occasion, fail to protect the Constitution.—
(Hear.) He could not conceive bow the Right Hon.
.8,-cretary could think of such measures as likely to effect
their proposed end in Ireland ; he must be little acqu
with the Irish people—(Hear, from the Irish blew•
bers)—any more than with the English, and the Ministers
would not dare to propose such measures for England.
That Right /lon. Secretary himself wag the most unp. pular
man in Ireland.—(The Hon. Gentleman excited roars of
laughter by this intim ition, which was made by him di•
rectly to tie Right Hon. Secretary, but apparently, ac-
cording to the forms of the House, to the Speaker.) The
Hon. Members laughed—like the drummer, beat them
where he would, be could not please them. However, he
would tell them in the House, as he had out of the House,
that the Irish people would resist despotism, tyranny, and
arbitrary power, foot to foot, and step by step.-..(Cheers
front the Irish Members.) The measures now proposed
were another lesson to the Irish people, who last session
had put faith in the assurance that they might trust to the
kind feelings and brotherly kindness of Englishmen. After
this, it would be impossible to believe in any words, how-
ever plausible. How often were the Irish nation to de-
grade themselves before the English nation—to come
cap in hand like beggars—a posture unworthy such a
people ? As to the agitation which was laid so much
stress on, he could prove, if required, that it emanated
wholly from Governmen.t and its servants. He would
give them an instance where a Magistrate had stopped
a man on the road who owed a trifling arrear of
rent; the man tried to make his escape ; but the Ma-
gistrate, in the struggle, tore off the pockets of the man's
frieze coat, in which was the sum of 3/. 18s. 6d. ; and
yet this packet, with the money, was sold for 10d. tithe
money. There was another instance where 401. worth of
hay was sold for ss. tithe, and a horse worth 91. sold for
1/., and immediately shot for the hounds.—(Roars of
laughter from the Ministerial benches.) It might he sport
to Hon. Gentleman, but it was death to the objects of the
inflictions.—(Hear, bear, hear.) This measure was the
coping-stone to the proceedings of Ministers with regard
to Ireland : yet, if such measures were permitted, they
would hereafter deeply repent when they read the accounts
of the blood which would be shed ; for every drop of
blood would be upon their souls.—(Hear.) After all,
what was the object of Ministers? Why, to put down 250
unfortunate volunteers—a point on which the Hon. Mern •
tier for Leeds had just before been so eloquent. That
Hon. Gentleman had also indulged in observations relative
to the subscription made for the Hon. and Learned Mem.
ber for Dublin, taunting him with taxing the people; but
he (Mr. F. O'Connor) thought that when a man gave up
a profession yielding him a large income, for the sole ob-
ject of promoting his country's good, such a man was en-
titled to that country's support. Ministers would find it
much more difficult than they seemed to anticipate ; it
was not possible but that the representatives of a free
people would rather die than be guilty of the enormity of
signing the death-warrant of their country. The people
of England would not stiffer it. They would call to mind
the fact, that every Insurrection Act, every suspension of
the Habeas Corpus, ever put into operation in England,
had been preceded some two years before by similar mea
sures in Inland.
Mr. CAREW, though he felt that some strong
measures were absolutely called for in Ireland, could
not admit that the whole country was in a disorganized
state, or would require any coercivemeasures. The county
of Wexford he would instance as one which did not re-
quire any such measures. The utmost tranquillity
had been preserved there by the strong exertions and in-
fluence of the gentlemen and magistrates of the county,
and of the Catholic clergy.—( He tr.) He must, however,
say that the industrious people wanted protection.
would refer to the two inquests which he had been oh

iged to hold ; at one a hou-e had been burned down, and
he saw three bodies on the floor; the other was held on a
man who had b.en murdered, whose only crime was, that
he had said that he knew the persons who had committed
another crime.—( Hear, hear.) Another case he would
mention was that of the police who had killed two White-
feet, on which occasion the farmers had given a verdict
that the police had shot these men in the execution of
their duty, and peace was restored. The illegal notices
which had been mentioned were certainly frequently
given, and though he always encouraged the farmers
whom they were given to remain on their land, and promised
them protection, it was not without fear that they migle
he murdered. He had found it necessary in the executis
of his duty to promise witnesses that they should he
placed under the protection of the law till the Assizes, and
should then be tient out of the country. It was a cruel
state of things when witnesses, who came forward to
prove that their friendo had been murdered, should in
it that pronounce a sentence of banishment on them-
selves —( Hear, hear.) Within a week, the house of H
widow, whose husband had been murdered, had been
burnt down, and whether that had been done by those
whit murdered the man, or by the widow herself, to get
removed, it equally proved the intimidation under which
the people lived. As for domiciliary visits, he must say
that hardly any of the farmers whom he had sleeken
on the subject had sugersted that they ought to take place.
He would ewe his suppert in the motion.
Mr. CLAY could not reconcile it to himself to give a
silent vote ou this subj•c-r—rhe rather as he wan diaFnia,:n
to think th it all its hearings had not been successfully de
v loped in the speech, however eloquent and able, of the
Right Hun. Secretary for Ireland. That speech was cal-
citia•ed to lead the House into one great error—that of
substituting local, personal, and patty feelings for the ge-
neral good, as the hems of legislation—a principle of legis-
lation that was in the last degree dangerous. He
would say, that he had n r feeling of hostility agains
Ministers ; he was disposed to give them his warmest
support ; he owed them gratitude for what the)
had done as to Reform, and he was confident that
their intentions were most pure. For them to
leave office would be a great national calamity,
for he saw no other set of men who possessed the
power to carry those measures of further Reform which
the country demanded and must attain, and at the Berne
time preserve order. The disposition to place confidence
in them must not, however, lead him too far —not so far
as to oppose those principles which were the basis of his
political creed. Many independent men in that House,
who wished well to the Ministers, would not enter with
them into the present path, and many more would enter
it with the de. pest regret.—(Hear, hear.) He demander
to know why it was that Ireland was so continually a
subject of complaint ? Why did the distress of Ireland
meet us at every torn ? And why but because Ireland
had been misgoverned in every age? What rendered out
potoily
ricdi‘ak and
81t•eress
a uncertain
home_i abroad,reld and
.Th w
The eight
tiglahatt
millions
steorf
her people only added to our weakness. In a census o
our population they ought to be subtracted from the six-
teen millions who inhabited Britain, for we altauld be
stronger without them. Why did taxes press so heavily
on Britain?—Because Ireland did not bear her fair pro-
portion. What was the cause of that growing and exten
sive pauperism which told that this once happy laud we-
going to decay ?—What was it but the overflowing of bet
population into England, not only lowering the wages o.
Englishmen, but debasing the standard of social enjoy-
ment and existence, by perpetually exhibiting a picture o
by how small a quantity of comfort animal life could b,
preserved—thus removing the only barrier against the
general flood of misery which already overwhelmed Ire-
land itself ? What was the remedy for this state of things ?

It teas—.do justice to Ireland.-.(Hear.) Let the Uaree be
made a real Union, and let Ireland no longer he treated as a
province. It might be said that the measures of Ministers
promised justice to Ireland; but when they were exa-
mined, the few measures of improvement slowly brought
forward were more than counterbalanced by another mea-
sure of unparalleled severity. It was taliires the whole
nation nut of the pale of the Constitution.—(Hear, hear.)
It was the employment of force, which nothing but the
most urgent necessity could justify Lct them be quite
sure that their cause was just before they had recourse to
such a measure—before they resolved to employ force
against a whole people ; and the employment of force by
the Government against the people was a prima fade
proof that the Government was wrong.—(No, no;
Order.) Measures of coercion were the lest whirh
could be called for on this occasion. One part of the
measure he did not approve of; another part—that which
went to strengthen the law and protect life and ereperty,
to put a stop to outrage and restore order—to that extent
t
agreed
ge
:Ministersee
epdp rwonivt
with
ie,hhtde:dtohhf,
ordinary,e madewel.ieevaemrne,dotaurswi
tubrameasn,
approveaapc _ardse
eop.tafnoroett
prepared
rTeaets:n
oxi
fintati
her
awan
rtttiyi,
texrcatitobe,
,htnupoetteue,
cadgil
he
as
There was no reason why justice should not be adminis-
y
cteroiremedmdiibdsysion should not be issued to suppress the out-
rages.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Secretary had
praised the measure because it was a great departure from
the Constitution; but if that were a recommendation,
and it were found difficult to get witnesses, why not
also subject them at once to torture to make them ate
tend?—(Hear, hear, hear.) He objected, also, to the
mixing and confounding of things quite distinct. He
was ready to concede to his Majesty's Ministers a
power to restrain nightly outrage, but he was not ready to
concede to them a power to restrain the expression of
public opinion ; he was not ready to put Ireland out of
the pale of the Constitution ; for the Irish had equal rights
with the English. The House was called upon to legise
Lite on some petty, paltry, personal considerations. Toe
Hon. and Learned Member for Duelin was treated, he
must say, unfairly, injudiciously, and injuriously. By
rendering him an object of attack, the people were only
the more attached to him. He was treated injudiciously,
because one of the great objects for which he had agitated
bad not been granted by that British Parliament to which
he was held up now as an object of cen•ure and ridicule,
He had agitated for Catholic Emancipation—that was
granted. He had agitated to obtain the repeal of the
Church Cess, of the Grand Jury Laws—and was not the
whole House anxious to reform both those grievances
When he had accomplished these things, the Hon. and
Learned Member should not he taunted and held up to
ridicule because he did not deliver himself in that House
in "good set phrase, and use the terms of a waiting
gentlewoman."—(A laugh.) But suppose that the Ron.
and Learned Gentleman was indiacreet—and he did not
defend the Hon. and Learned Member—they should not
act on such paltry ground of legislation. He would go
further and say that, with all respect for the talents au.l
exertions of the lion. and Learned Member—admitting,
too, that the Hon. and Learned Member had done great
things—he would say, that unfortunately a great deal too
much importance was attached to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman. That man must have read history to
very little purpose, and most unphilosophically, who
was net convinced that no individual could have much ;it"
fluence over those events on which depend a nation's trate.
quillity.—(Hear, hear ; No, no.) All history, he said,
testified that great men were but incidents, they were
created by events, and did not create them. The Hun,
and Learned Gentleman was more the effect than the cause
of agitation. He was the child before he was the cham-
pion of agitation. He looked at the promised reforms,
because they were made the reasons for justifying coercion.
On the measures of redress was founded a measure of un-
paralleled severity. lie had not heard in those measures
of redress any other hope but of a distant commutation of
tithes, which were still to be levied in some shape or
other, and appropriated to the exclusive use of the Irish
Church Establishment. A reduction was to be wade in
the number of Irish Bishops, and a portion of that pro-
perty was to be taken away, and how that was to be re-
conciled to the principle that they were not to violate
church property be did not know ; but if it were violated
in one instance, why should it not be done in more in-
stances than one, if that was necessary to the tranquillity
of Ireland ? Ile could not get rid of the impression that
this measure of severity was intended to enforce the collec-
tion of tithes, which had been disclaim-d by the Noble
Lord, though a subsequent explanation of the Right Hen.
Gentleman had done away with that disclaimer.--.
(Question.) In conclusion be would say, that he would
not oppose the first reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear, and
a laugh.) He was not aware that he had said anything
which should excite the amusement of the House; He
bad stated that he thought greater power was necessary to
repress outrage, and he did not intend, therefore, to op-
pose the introduction of the Bill ; but he should, at is
prop-r time, give his most decided opposition to those
parts of the measure which went beyond the repreasion of
outrages and the Whitefeet.—(l leer, hear.)
Major BEAUCLERK said, that the great cause of al
the evils which England suffered from Ireland was the
misgovernment and mismanagement to which the latter
had been exposed, and yet the Ministers were about to
make the wrong and the cause of all the evils much
greater.—(Hear, hear.) He would tell Ministers that
they would not attain their object, but would bring ruin
on the country and on their own head-. If the people
allowed the 13111 to pass, it would keep up the t ixes, and
t,,ey, therefore, could not allow it to pass with impunity.
It was fraught with danger to both parts of the empire,
and he would, while it was yet time, raise his voice against
it. Was this the fruit of Reform? Was this the gra.
titude of England to Ireland for her exertions to Witain
Reform? It was his duty not to give the Government
the power they asked, and he should oppose even the first
stage of the Bill. The question would probably be de-
cided for Ministers by a well-dressed majority of the
House.—(Loud cries of " No, no.") But who were
their supporters in this scheme of oppression? T,e very
men who were distinguished for their hatred of liberty.
(Cheers, and loud cries of " Oh, oh !") They looked
with suspicion and dislike at a measure which d-stroved
the foundation of the English Constitution—the erin-
ciples of liberty and justice; and not, as the Ministry
seemed to imagine, the bayonet and the sword.—(Laueb-
ter.) The Bill was one which every honest man must
view with feelings of hatred If his Majesty's Ministers
succeeded in carrying such a Bill, he for one would di
Clare, that out of the House he would not obey it —a
(Cheers and laughter )
Mr. T. LENNARD—If he had a single deeiht as to
the propriety of supporting Government on (his occasion,
it would hive been removed by the coraclusive speech of
the Right Hon. Secretar, for Ir land, It was a speech
coarincing that the address of the elovent gentleman
who spoke that night failed in shaking one sin le fact or
Argument contained in it. Never had be heard a stronger,
a more irresistible case made out: the necessity of arming
Minister, with extraordinary povrere.—(Cbeers.) The
(notion made by the Hon. Member for Lambeth, requrring
a fortnight delay, was one he could not consent to; be-
e.use a much longer time would be requisite, in order to
see the effect of the remedial measure.. Before they ..a,,e•
ioned delay, let the price of that delay be taken into ac-
count—let them put themselves into tee situation of per-
sons living in an agitated district, and estimate the waste
of property and liee in the interval. Unieet he was sa-
, had that no outrages would be torntnitted in the mean-
time, be was resolved net to be deterred from giving his
cordial support to Government. It wes with reluctance
he attempted to vindicate the present Bil—harsh and un-
constitutional it certainly was, but in his opinion much
inure harsh and unconstitutional was it to refuse fellow-
subjects the protection of life and property. He, how-
ever, wished it to be understood, that the responsibility
if the Bill rested on Ministers, bath for its enactment
and execution. Though supporting the present measure,
he begged levee to observe that he was a sincere friend tcl
Ireland.

Lord EBRINOTON begged leave to ask the Hon.
Gentleman who addressed the House last but one, to ex-
plain what he meant by "a well dressed majority."--.
(Cries of " Explain " were raised, and)
Major BEAUCLERK used the term in no offensive
Arrive, but merely meant to refer to the order and ar-
rangement of Hon. Members on the various benches rising;
behind esch other.

Lord ERRINGTON would be the last man to take ad-
vantage of an expression uttered in the heat of debate;
iut he would tell Hon. Members that they could not de-
prive of the confidence of the country those men who, by
he whole tenor of their bees, had proved themselves the
Tiends of popular rights—(Cheering)—who, during the
lung course of their political career, had uniformly endea-
voured to defend and extend the liberties of their fellow-
subjects.—(Hear, hear.) If all who supported Govern-
' ['lent expressed the reluctance with which they adviiitited
uch a Bill, he would declare that na man entertained
!hat feeling more keenly and sincerely than ho (L ird
Ebrington) did, but at the same time he avowed that
ther did any person hold a firmer or more entire convic-
!ion of the absolute necessity of a measure ot that
kind—not for the purposes of coerm.
on—t,ut t.ir the re-
'loyal of a grievous tyranny--of tha- sy,itetn of lawless.
nest' which prevailed in a great part of the country, and
Was utterly incompioble with the existence of property,
and life, and civil soctety..-(Haars bur.) His support,

IL

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