The Sun.
London, England, 1802-05-15 00:00:00

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With the greatest reaped and gratitude,
Your much obliged Servant,
HENRY PE's TON

tattbridge, May 10, 18°

• GENERAL POST OFFICE,
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FRANCIS FREELING, Secretary'.

.1....,°p6T on Thursday last, between' the Hours of
44 1-413tzt and Six in the Evening, between Welclose-square
NET°rfolk-street Strand,' a RED .XIOROCCO 110C-
con'taining various 'Papers, of no use tO any
11 bt
(Nam, I. ...wner_ Whoever will bring it to Mr:
the Lanib, in Leadenball Market, shall receivf
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1'

After the Address yesterday moved by Mr. WINDHAM,
and the Amendment proposed by Lord HA WK ESB UR Y, wet:
read from the Chair,
Sir WILLIAM YOUNG rose. He began with
a defence of the mode which he and his Hon.
Friends had adopted in the course of the present
discussion. He said, that it was not from any
&Mous motives, or from any design. of seizing, by
iiirprtse; Public irisa—d, "that they had adopted-
the analytical itiode of inquiry. But when theim-
portance of the ,subjea was considered, and the
magnitude of the: interests it involved, it could
not surely be esteemed- faftiotii to de site an analysis
of its parti. It Was by this analytical mode alone
that the Treaty could be completely • understood,
and the minds of the Hon. Members properly pre-
pared for taking a general view of it, and deciding
on its merits upon the whole. But without seek-
,ing for other arguments to justify this manner of
proceeding, its propriety might be deduced, from
its visible consequences io last night's ,Debate.
Much rubbish, much obieurity had previously been
cleared away, the several parts, had been separately
examined, and the House were enableCNo Wee 'rile
whole subject at once under their Atelleration.
He then paid some compliments rts, the :motives
which atuated his Honourable Friends in 'their •
political condufi in general. Such, he said, was
his opinion of their wisdom and integrity, that
he wished to be implicated along with them in every.
. rt
,ansadion, whatever opinion the world might form
.of-them. Their conduct : on the present oceagori was
such as
,might not be approved of by those that
,apposed them ; but the country at large must do
them the justice to own, that they were actuated
solely by views of public utility. He then ad-
verted to the 'Address proposed. He stated, -that '
when such measures as a great Standing Army in
times of peace was found necessary at 'presOlt to
be adopted, it was of the last consequence that the
opinion should correspond with that of the
House.. It was proper that the people should be
made acquainted with the state of • affairs which
rendered such unusual and formidable measures es-
sential to the security of the country. • This. WAS
done v'-ry plainly and forcibly In the Ali tress.
He could nor, however, think the Address went
far enough ; but if it had the effeet of rous-
ing the slumbering spirit of the Country, it
was a great point gained. He said he pre-
ferred the Address to the Amendment, because,
in the latter, our claims were not inforced with
sufficient spirit or vigour. Another cause of his
dissent from the Amendment, was, that it af-
firmed the Definitive Treaty to be founded on
the basis of the Preliminary Treaty. With this
position he could by no means agree, and he should '
now proceed to enumerate the points in which they
,appeared to him to differ. The first article he advert-
ed to, was 'the stipulations relative to Malta.. He
contended that since the Preliminary Treaty,France
had acquired such an ascendancy in Italy,4S. to have
Malta completely in her power ; and the Italian
Republic, instead of an independent State, was be-
come a part of the French dominions.;:; After this
it is childish to say Malta is French'; 'we all:know
it to be so. With regard to the in ernal reg,,ula, •
Lions of that Island, we had, in ther,Prelimiipzies
guaranteed the Sovereignty of it to thei3Order of
Malta ; but by the Definitive Treaty, we.had de-
stroyed the very fundamental Institutions of that
Order. We. had introduced into it a new Langue,
to be composed of native. Maltese ; but where were
inhabitants of Malta to he found fit, to become mem.
hers 61 a Noble Order ? From a residence of
some time in Malta, he could state, that its inhabit-
ants were as mean and ignorant as could be imagined.
He could stare, from personal knowledge, that there
were not above five Merchants in thewhoie Island;
the rest were composed of gold liners and other
labourers, who mostly spoke the Arab language,
with sora.: Mixture of all languages. Were these
people fit to mix with an order of ancient Nobility?
By such a stipulation, the government, though no.
initially restored to the Order, was; in fatigiven Up to
the democracy of Malta. The Nobles will of course
refuse to associate with this new Langue, which,
by calling in foreign aid, will assuredly place. the
Island in the hands of our enemies.' He then ad.
vetted to the cession of Louisiana, which he repre-
sented as a compensation made to France for ad-
vancing the new King of Etruria to his Throne.
All these evils, and others also, he concluded, arose
from the non-renewal of the Treaty of Utrecht, in
which it- was expressly stipulated, that France
should acquire no new possessions on the Continent
of America. He then took a view of -the advan-
tages which France possessed in the7West
In St. Domingo, about loo,ooo.Negrues 114/Act)
refuge in the mountains, which !afibrded Fiance a
plausible pretext frit- maintaining. an army-of at
least twenty-five thousand men 'in the plains.
On the breaking out- of 'a war then, was no-
thing to be feared from' such a formidable
French force in that quarter ? With. tegard to what.
&Noble Lord bad -last night advanced concerning
the sources libm Which our Seamen were drawn, -
help'thinking our `sect _lndia trade

was the chief, as 'those bred upon it were 'more
experienced, and also inured to every change of
climate. It Was evident thatYrance looked to this
source for the revival of her Navy, She would
now have a body of men in readiness in her West
India islands, a station for them on -the Continent,
and therefore every convenience, of which she
would not fail to avail herself, of over-running
Mexico. He said, it was vain to hope we, should
be able to maintain tranquillity with France. Let
us observe what has been the spirit of all great
Military Republics on record, we should find the
desire of conquest and dominion equally pervade
the whole. What Rome was, France will be. He
did not think that France intended immediately to
break with us ; but he was convinced it was her
intention to take from Great Britain her means of
resistance, by blows aimed at her only vulnerable
part, her Commerce. As, however, the Present
Treaty had been concluded and ratified, it was his
earnest wish to see it maintained ; but maintained
upon the principles laid down in the Address.
Lord C ASTL EREAG H said,:-it was wit, h,grsa;
reludance he rose to trouble the, House with. --his
observations on a subject which . had. already been
so ably discussed ; but he hoped .he w.ould eX-
cused when he stated the grounds; on ,which_ he
had formed his opinion. The particulars .of
the Treaty had already undergone a suffi-
ciently minute discussion ; he would, therefore,.
principally confine himself to the question of
Security, after a few observations on the two
topics to which the discussion had branched out,
viz. 'those alterations which had taken place in the
situation of the Contrading Powers, between the_
Preliminary and Definitive Treaties; and the sues..
Lion, whether the Defiaitive:Treary was or was not
founded on the Preliminaryi- -.,,With regard to the
'alterations in the situation, of; Xurope, which took
place-subsequent to :.the .Signature of the Prelimi:.
'llaries, he had no hesitation in saying, that they were
very important indeed, and such as might have fully
justified our breaking off the Treaty, or demanding
compensations suffiCient to counterbalance the acces-
sions'oftwwer.and territory acquired by France.—
But tcerudge -whether it
~was expedient to do so,
it was necessary to Consider how far our Security
was affected by those accessions ; and upon these
grounds, he did not think His Majesty's Mi-
nisters would have been warranted in taking such
measures. .The difference between the dired and
indirect disposal of the reaourees of the Italian Re-
public, was. certainly considerable i but still not
such, as to warrant a War on that ,account. The
cession of Louisiana was of much importance, . both
in a Colonial and Commercial view ; but still not
of SO much, as to justify the breaking off the Nego-
tiation on that account. With regard to the
Treaty of titecht, it could have -no reference what-
ever to Louisiana, as that Country was, at the very'
time, a French Province. Shan we 'then, it may be
said, reason thus of every encroachment of France,
and contend, that each individual point was not
sufficient to warrant our breaking off the Treaty
of PeaCe ? All that he should say.on this sob-
jeet was, that we had given oar own Coun-
try, arid all Europe, a proof of our pacific dis.
position. He said, that if France did not ael.
with different dispositions in Peace, from what
she had manifested between the Preliminary and-De-
finitive Treaties, the Peace could be of no long dura.
tion. But while His Majesty's Ministers aded iththe spirit of Peace, the House and, the Country would.
not ,144 support them, in.maintaining a degree of
firmness required-by' the honour of the Nation. The.
Noble, If:Ord then adverted to;the Articles in which
is wai.said the Definitive Tteaty fell-short of the
Preliminaries.' The first point.he Should allude to
was Malta,•' and he, tpaintaified that the arrange-
ment which had beta _ctopied,;for that Island was
the best caletalated „i'ci,,f,ol,l4sy,-,lBp the spirit 'of the
PreliMinaries in rerufe4ng,'iljqependerif of all the
Contrading Powers.„,Aptpe-blained our restoring it
to the Order ; but it. ;was in War alone it ‘4,is
valuable ; in Peace we were better off 'without it.-
With respea to the guarantee of Malta, Russia had
refused it. In such a case, the only resource
left for His Majesty, was to makesuch an 'arrange;
ment as would keep it out of theliancis of France.
He said, he could not agree with those who thought-
the intrododlion of the Maltese into the 'Order any
degradation to it. They had shewed both spirit•
and valour in the defence of their Country • Some-
Gentlemen had .contended, that thbugh the Order
was restored, it must remain for 'ever dependent
on account of its want of Revenues necessary fOr
its support. But it was to be recollected, thacif
some tart of its Revenues had been lost by the sup-
pression of the French Tongues 1. anaddition had' on
the other hand been made to them by the introtinc'..
tion of a Russian and a Bavarian Langue,._ both of
which .w. re endewed with very considerable
grants. The Noble Lord then went On to prove
from details that the, Revenues of the Order were
in all 300,0001. and that they were as good now
as before the war. He then adverted to what had
been advanced concerning Portugal and Guiana.
Strange misrepresentations had, been respeCt.
ing the, Arawari, but if we consulted the evidence
of faas, we should find that the Arawari did n6t lie
in the mouth of the RiVer of the ArtizOtfs, but on
the Ocean, and: therefore could' give no command
of the latter riVq,t;, 14e- .IYrip.l the Amazons by
zo, iegrees south, of the. ui..itT',, the Arawari de-
,,gree.,so_minutes,..oortih Tile mouth -of
_the
Amazons was fully mfrs; to :the south of" the
boundary fixed by the Treaty. The Noble Lord
then .concluded, that
.none. these; points-which he
hitt tionsidered, could any Wise affe4:96r security.
,'Afiother: 4ue4tion
,bget),o4ited, upon, w 'le-
cher any....Ohled.Ofjhe'W4i been at-
*tied, he said, *that Ate 4'41; the" Otiaved .

turfed his efforts to attain that which was w:'
power.- This was a full answer to those wlif. -;,f
his H0n.14-sriend of inconsistency. Thepres6
of security which we enjoy, ,had arisen 1n
measure out of the transaajons of the Wm(
sidering the relative situation of Gre4t-Brr
France,' independent of all other Powers
in a state of greater. separate nazional
than at any period of our history.. 41,
gard to the state of the Confident, it was j, •
be lamented ; it was, to use a phrase 0. -
adopted, extremely unsatisfa&ory. But vt .
gard to this Country, her acquisitaons gave
no preponderance. "I do not, however, derr• i
said he, " that her great acquisitions of tet.:to.
joined to the industry of her inhabitants, tine •
some remote poiod—a- period too distant to
culate upOti, :and still more to aet upCn7—so
our security, that if this. supposition had. taken
at, present, I should have looked twice before I had--
made Peace; But at present the case is very (fir.
ferent indeed." The Noble Lord then proceee,l.
to enumerate the bad effeCts resulting from the de_
spending language of the Hon, Gentlemen ivho
spoke on the other side. He said, They had talked
of our security in such a timid and suspicious man.
ner, as greatly. to Lower the tone of this Country.
`His Hon. Friend had, however, last night -discussed
these points sq ably, that little remained for him to
. say. As to the security to be derived from influ.
ence on the Continent, he should say nothing ;
but he thought the best way to .recover that influ-
ence would be to allow France to recover her colo-
nial possessions and West Indian trade. As long
as we excluded her from these, and confined
her to the Continent, we could not expect
that she would ever allow us to acquire a foot-
ing there. But if she once regained her Co..
lonial possessions and trade, she would be willing
to allow us advantages on the Contineot, in
order to secure these Colonies which must ever be
in our power. It was with astoniShinent that he
had heard the maritime resources of France men.
tioned as an object of apprehension to us, when we
compared them with the numense maritime resources
which We had called forth during the War, and the
immense increase they had received even during the.
period of hostilities. if we compared the /com-
merce of this Country and France, and how they
had been affeded by the 'War, these apprehensions
must vanish at once. Before the War,, France had
boasted an equality with England. Her imports
then amounted to 17,000,000, and her exports to
te,000,000, During the course of the War, the im.
ports of France diminished to 61,000, and her exports
•to t t,OOO while the Imports of Great Britain had
increased to 43,00cn000, and her Exports to.
30;090,0004, Would any one then say, that there
cotrld, soon, be any competition between the Com.

meree of these two Powers, even supposing that al-
ter'the Peace they started with equal advantages ?
Sothe people 'were alarmed -at the idea of France
c6Mrtieneing asys.tem of hostilities against our Com.
!tierce; bilti.to:hitn this gave but small apprehen.

- •
lion. Haw could it be tile interest of a poor cpun-

try, witl-Clv small capital, to exclude the Comrxierce
of a.rith country, and go .to other markets where

she must-buy :dearer ?, it,*ven if this could be carried

into exOceCiOn within her cli.vn terrirorie. Would

Franee; notwithstanding her great influence over the
other Coritinental Powers, ever be able to persuade
them to go to the Frerch market and buy dear,
when they may be supplied with cheaper commodi-
ties at th6British market' ? Even if this improbable
_ _

supposition cou!d be carried into eff:ct, it can be
proved, that it. will nowise diminish our Commerce.
As a pronf of this, we may take that year in the
time of War,- when France Indic every effort- to

carry this syster into execution. In that year,
the year -I Soo, the generdi Exports of this Cou' try
to the Continent, amounted to 7,5.00,0001. Five
of these v.%•ent to ,Cotintries then and now' entirely

out of the influence of France. The remaining two
went to those, that then might be supposed to In
under her • influence, comprehending • Spin,, .rortu.

gal, Italy, Holland, See.- Of-thesewe in,ty espon_
ably suppose, that Portugal, and a great part of
Italy, wiltnow resort to our markets, and no lon.

ger remainunder the ti tn_tier,,c r iL,l,cc.
this then as granted, of the 7,500,0001. by fair cum-

imitation, 7,300,0001. stands unaffected , in.
fluence of France. Ii she were even:ro prohibit the

intrOdVetioll Of th,rCr#l4kirling 2.30,0 D!. ISUUId Ole

be any great diminution of our wealth ? Under all
these circumstances, will any one say our commerce
stands on a worse footing than before the War
. Wirt , regard to America, it is in no respect}
worse, unless the predittion of that extraordinary
crusade from Louisiana should aeivally be accomplish-
ed. With regard to the West India Trade, 'our
superiority is so great,
,that there is little room for
the smallest apprehension. It may he said, that out
trade to the conquered -Islands' will be lost : 'bur
our exports-to them, while in our possession, never
exceeded Soo,oool. year ; and there is no cer-
tainty that even this trade will be lost to us,
as France is unable to afford them supplies, which
must therefore come to them through asome other
channel. After firmer Wars, our exportation to
restored French islands, from this cause, increas-
ed ; much more will it do so now, when France is
so exhausted. The Noble Lord then adverted: to
the state of the French West Indian Islands, which
he contended were in no condition to occasion any
alarm to ours. St. Domingo, the chief of them,
was at present a scene of warfare and confusion.—
But even supposing tranquillity to be re-established
there, it had lost one half of art cultivators, who
could only be feaplaced by an importation of. Ne-
groes to the value of Eighty Millions sterl, com-
p
euting each man at 601. ahead. At all events, it
-se would be long before it regained its state previous
to the War. As to the ereftion of an independent
• Black Colony in that quarter, he looked upon•it as
\ieinitely more dangerous, than if in the possession
eliFraertee. He always looked to such an event with
mattosmay, as a tatack Govermnent must a/tvays
en Europeans with an evil eye.-Great Britain
ea the most powerful European Nation in that•
*laar, would of consequence -be most disliked 'by
-f7"-A' and France would not fail, in future Wars;
'tre ,'T up and avail herself of their jealousy.—
eJests " said he, " I hare taken .a general view
• :;ice i'aCcurity ; and have not been able to trace a
aaft seetasonable ground of apprehension. Our
ell f prosperity are still (yeti to us. We are
• eeseiT ;.'l44truggle,- if the state of the world requires
ae'eeeaa-ggle ; and if the world 'will allow us, we
=condition to enjoy in security the blessings
On these grounds, I feel myself obliged
of the Peace we have now procured ;
Lae efore, give my voice for the Amendment."
lea 441 MAITLAND said, he rose merely for
aeee 15ose of ranking a few observations on what
ye.; s.,h said relative to our Colonies, by those who
-"ed the Address. It was strange, after all
been said,' that any doubt should be enter.
eas,
eesiegd oi the, advantages resulting from the new
•-•;,- eitadary of P(Cttuguese Guiana. One Hon. Gentle.
o • _
teee.goul•talked of a map, so wonderfully accurate,,
,caf's all the copies were bought. up ; another had
eeedere that-the most distant' idea of any difference
, ,
es-tweed the •oiauroaries should enter any one's
: a third had ransacked all the papers, and
adoeuineniis innawerable relative to the subjed. For
• a his own pm t' he had none but the common assistances,
. • ,
nor did he ;:now any thing of the country but from'
a plain map. But there was, one answer for all to
these affirmatious. .The difference between the
boundaries fixed by -the Treaties of- Madrid and
Badajos, was reckoned a matter of the utmost im.
portance by France and Portugal; who surely under.-
stood the matter. Both of them looked upon the boun.
dare fixed by the Definitive Treaty asofgreat advan-
tage to Porgy ugal. Much had been said about the
cession of Louisiana. But, at a Noble. Lord had last
night stated, with great propriety; the advantages
of that Colony were rather apparent than- real; and,
it had continued for a long suctessionaalyears, firat
in the hands oldie French, and theroin those of •the
Spaniards, yet still remained unimpeoved, while the
other possession's of those Powers in that quarter
had attained a state of high cultivation; and yet
when in Ake hands Of Spain, it had enjoyed some
special immunities. But it was ailedged that it would
give influence to France over the States of America.
Had not we, and France before us, held the much
more powerful country of Canada on that Con.
tineot, without acquiring that influence ? If things
were to be attempted by force, was it not much
move likely, that America would endanger Ca..
nada than Canada America ? Much more might
thus be said of Louisiana. If France is to go.
vern America by art and not by force, has she
not already attempted this by emissaries during the
late -War ; and will the possession of Louisiana,
which rouses the jealousy of America, forward that
'projed ? Mexico was at a great distance, and not
readily to be.annoyed from the quarter of Louisiana.
But we'had been told that the aggrandizement of
France in that quarter of the woe)d would prove
dangerous to our Colonies. Did it not occur to
those who stated such alarms, that the fleets and
armies which could annoy us must be sent thither
from France ; and .that they could not be so with.
out first obtaining a pass from the Lords of the
Admiralty ? France never. had drawn, never
could draw resources from her Colonies in time
of War. All her concerns there, she well knew,
were at the mercy of our Navy. We had heard
how formidable a Military Republic was; but is
not a Naval -Republic that binds up her hands on
all aides, ne formidable ? Now, with regard to.
the Peace, it was plain that our Colonies could not
be so much benefited lay War as by Peace; there
was always a degree of uncertainty in the fanner that
prevented improvement. As to French force at present
in the West Indies, it was all necessary, and our se-
curity depended on its success. " Let us then,"
said he, " look around the world, or let us turn
over the annals of history, where shall we find a
Power with possessions so secured as ours are at
present ? In the East Indies, nothing possibly can
come itecontad with us ; in the West Indies our
forces are sufficient to resist all attempts of our
enemies.;; and at home we are able to commeed
security"
Lord TEMPLE said, he should not now go over
the whole of the subjed., as its principal points had
seen so thoroughly discussed. The Noble 'Lord
(HiawKESBURy) had stated the Peace to be insecure,
and therefore he would rote for the Address be-
cause he wished to make it secure. The Noble
Lord (CASTLEREAGH) had observed that this Coun-
try would not long remain at Peace, if France still
pursued that line of conduit which she had adopted
between the Prelinainary and the Definitive Treaty.:
for this reason he voted for the Address, because

V

Thrice had constantly shewn the raffle spirit of ag-
grandizement. He must a little complain of the Noble
Lord who had spoken last (Cat.STListEAGH), and the
, other Noble Lorat(HAvOitass vital), with respell to
the course of argument which they had adOpted.—
They had asked, was it ibetter to renew the War on,.
account of the aggrandizement of France, or to make
Peace ? but this was not the question. The ques-_-
• tion was, whether, 'with our successes and -our
resources, we were not intitled to, more• than
His Majesty's Ministers had obtained ? The
queltion was, whether we should 'riot- have ob-
tained a compensation for the advantages which
France had in the-mean time obtained ? It had been
said, that the Definitive Treaty agreed with the
Preliminary Treaty, and therefore they 'Were bound
to agree with the Amendment : he could not agree
to this proposition, berateao the situation of Europe
was not the same at the, period of the DeFniti ye
Treaty as it was at the period' of the ?reliminary
Treaty. Would the Noble Lord contend; that our si_
Nation was the same after France become posseased of
the Italian Republic, or that the basis of the Treaty
was oor changed? Under such circumstances His Ma-
jesty's Ministers ought tohave obtained an adquilte
compensation from France for the increase of,power to
her which had taken place• between the Prelimi-
nary and Definitive Treaty. What was the situation
offrance with relation to the rest of Europe? It had
been truly stated to be unsntisfa:qory. With re--
sped to Meita, they had been told that it was
placed in the hands of an 'independent Power ; it
was necessary, however, beforeathis assertion could
be received, to prove that Naples, t.o whose-
hands it was entrusted, was an independent
Power ; it was necessary to prove, that she was
able to take care of her own interests, befete chore
of others were entrusted to her. The Noble Lord
(CAsTL R EACH) had given a statement Of the trade
of France, and observed- upon the impossibility of
her rivalling us ;' hot the statement of the Noble
Lord did not relate to the present time but to the
period of the Monarchy : The case, however, was
very different now, when France had added to her
resources and her means beyond all proportion, and
when she possessed an extent of Coast from Venice
.to the 'l'exel. It had been stated that'Malta was
of no use to us in a time of Peace ; it might he very
true, but was it well known that it 'would serve
as a depot of provisiens'for'the use of our Troops,
and that it would -serve proted froM the. French
expeditions, whilst it would also protect our block-
ade of Toulon- In viewing the merits "of this
Treaty he would ask, had we obtaind what had
been so triumphantly asserted to be the t4ajed of
the War, indemnity for the past, and security for
the fu-ure, which were the only grounds .otaaVahich
skis Country ought to make Peace ? Had. we' ob-
tained either of-those objects ? With resped. to in_
demnity, were we to. look for it in the advantages of
• Europe, with whom, we had made a common cause?
Were we to look for it in the Indemnity giaen to our
. good Allies ? Let us look at the King of Sardinia,
was he named at all in the Treaty I With respell
to the Queen of, Portugal, her integrity had been
broken through, and so stibserVient was Portugal to
France, that he believed our 'Ambassador there had_
been sent home foi instt'uetions, with respell to an
insult which. this Country had received there. Had
we left Naples Independent ? The Isle of Elba. virotald.
• sufficiently testify to the contrary. Last, though
riot least, wao the Prince of Orange e if ever • leas
Indemniry. was offered, if ever an insult was
offered to an. Ally, it was to then Prince of
j Orange a'weeallowed the revival of the old dispute
relative to his title, and we bad said he should
have Indemnity a bet We had .not said 'when or
• how. If any evidence was. wanting against the
Treaty,' it, was that of the Noble Lord (HAw It ES-

. -
BURY) who had declared tlse Peace to bed insecure
let them look even at the, Address moved bty the
Noble Secretary of State, and, they would fied.,that
it recommended the keeping np a War Establishtnent
. in tune of Peace : in this point of view the Peace was
insecure: As to our Trade, heshould'say very little
upon it ; but it
.wasof importance to consider the
means which France-now possessed of extendiog her
trade, and of shutting many of the Ports of Europe
against us. With respeCt to the Cape' he should.
say nothing, as the SubjeCt had been so ably dis-
cussed by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. DUNDAS)
on a former evening; He could, not help oliserving,.
however, that we -had given up to France every
Establishment conneCied ,with,, our East India Pos-
sessions, where they Might, make, undisturbed,
whatever arrangements they chose for the purpose of
annoying. our trade and attacking our power. It
had been said that His Majesty's Ministers had
given up none of our Rights, but how would they
justify giving up the honour of our Flag, which
was the last privilege they ought to have given up.
He wished to ask) who wished for War, His Ma-
jesty's Minister, who preserved a sullen silence, and
refused to explain any Article of the Treaty, or
those who wished to settle those points by amicable
Negotiation ?
The MASTER of the ROLLS said, he did not
rise for the purpose of entering into the details of
this question, but he should merely confine himself
to one or two of the most prominent points. He
made this choice, first, because it was not easy to
compress the whole into an argument of any reason-
able length--'-and, in , the next place, because the
principal. Articles of the Treaty had been so suffi-
ciently explained by those who had been concerned
in this Negoti.ation, as to render it imposible for
him to say any thing new upon the subject. He
should confine himself to two points : It had been
said, that the Definitive Treaty ought not to have
been concluded, 'notwithstanding the Preliminary
Treaty,
.on. account of the large. accession in the
mean time made tot-the power of France, which the
Noble Lord asserted hart changed the face of Europe.
He should not now enter, into the Peace in detail,
because, if the Peace.was unjustifiable in its prin-
ciple, it must necessarily be. vitiated in detail, nor
could any argument be-adduced in favotlr of the de-
tails until the principle was justified.' A great-deal .
of ingenuity had been employed by his Right .Hon.
Friend on the preceding evening, about many of
whose sentiments perhaps there might be little differ-
ence of opinion, hut he was „at a loss to diseOver,
how the arguments-of his Right Honourable Friend
applied in the, present cavp,... It had been clearly
shewn that France had made many acquisitions, and I

byt
that shellac' materially increased Tier power
.;the Gentleirxen on the other side had not shewn what
part of those acquisitiocist#' bowets'luclof that
power had been the consent* of Ole Peace. It
Was..to the events of_ the \7_af thit naric*,::was in_
debted for that increase of her power— Did those
Gentlenien mean to contend, that •the War ought
not to have been undertaken was persuakde
that, bad as was the condition of Europe at the prera
sent- moment, it would have been touch worse, had.
it not been for the War. It might be said, that
there was a necessity for making Peace; it would,
hoWever, be recolleaed, that •the diaates of pru-
dence were a ground of necessity to a wise man,
and certainly, if there existed no visible means of
bettering•tlic condition of a Country in a state of
War, everything concurred to induce and to render
if a Mattei. of good policy, in that Country, to
con-elude Peace. If his Right Honourable Friend
could have shewn how a change could have been
effeaed- in the Situation of .Europe, , lie would
have joined his humble efforts. to rouse the Country
to a continuance of the contact. He would-have
consented in that case to give-.up all the chances
which might have been expeaed from pursuing that
line of conduit ; but before they ieduzed him to sup-
port a continuance of the War, they must point out
to him some method of succesSfu,ll)/ effeaing any,
good by continuing the War. For irstanee, whilst
we had Allies upon the Continent, there was a
chance
,tlia t the balance of Europe might be restored ; •
such was the period when we: rejeae!itheArst
tures. of Bonaparte.: might then rrhapPll4}'
obtained inore.by itTreaty of 2titeee tut ve,gaitie np
whatever coneeensat ion 'we might have obtained Inc•
the chaciee of gaining every thing, A Treaty of
Peace 'therefore, such as this,..could not beconsent-
ed to at that period, when ihere wets the chance of
getting more than by any Treaty of Pe-ace. In A-
li:ice with the-Pos`iers of the Continent, we might
attain the objet`: that was sotight.foc, ,but certainly
We could not by ourselves. We could with
the, greatest certainty ascertain the :utmost liiquits
of our enrts, and we could know, that at the .end
of three or four years, the e&a ofi these efforts
would be still the same. Whai could we have.
done to prevent France from gaining the great
accession of poWer which she bad .acquired upon
the Continent, to have prevented her from ob-
taining an iliflUence in the Italian Republic, or
from obtaining from Spain the cession of Louisiana
It might he said, that if we did not persevere in
the War for the sake of Belgium and Rolland, it
was no reason why we should not renew the War
for the purpose of endeavouring to prevent the in-
fluence .of the First Consul over the Italian Re-
, public., It Might be said, that we might as well
continue the War for one objet}as for anothete bnt
.
a country must draw a line for iteell. It was not to
he said,' that a country was to continue a War for
the purpose of preventing this or .that particular
object from being carried into execution, but to
preclude a dishonourable Peace. It was not that
we: were to fight for one objea or another,, but
whether in either case it would have been of use,
'or on the other hand, unavailing to continue the
:contest.' The question resolved itself into this;
whether the War could have been continued with

any prospea of diminishing, the resources or con,
:traeting the power of France ? It had been
said, that the Treaty onght . not to have been
broken off, bur that we should have • insisted upon a
- compensation for the increased pow,erof France in,
this the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grenville),
and. the lsrsble Lord (Temple), had.differed from the
.:Right Hon. Gentleman who had opened the discus-
sion, w!Io conceived _tat the Treaty.ought to have
been broken ofiTafcer the concha which France had
displayed 'in the Italian Republic. With respea to
compensation', was it to be: taken out of the Terri-
1. tories in our possessim; ? wished to know
whether any Islands. .that we possessed at the
conclusion of. the War, . would serve as..a coun-
terbalance to the power which Fiance had ac-
quired on the Continent of, Europe ? It was not
rhp,:pdwee'attained by:preserving those Islands in
our possession, that recjered us capable of .con-
. tending with France, so far as regarded. her Con_
tipegliii power, because it was not exaftly,of the
same sort. France had acquired a .power by which
' other PoWers,'were less safe, bat which she had
rendered .safe..hy Jounding her Territories i but
would the ‘piisSe4ion of the West India Islands have
the Saline eilea With respea to this Country ? So
far froni"increasing the means of this Country, it
brought with it rather weakness than strength ;i
it divided our means and our resources, and cer-
tainly the acquisition of those. resources .We'
should acquire afforded no new means of defence,
nor any means of counterbalancing the- adva4:tages '
acquired by France in ,India. This was felt at '•
the Negotiation at Lisle, in which it was fully
understood that the West India Islands could be
no counterbalance to the power of France If we
had possessed, the means of cotrnterbalancing' the
power of France by means of our West India Islands,
then it must folloW that Ministers were highly'to
blame in giving up those means ; but it had not been
proved that we possessed them. It .was likely to be
recolleaed, that whilst we possessed no means of
controlling France upon the Continent, it was only
by means of the West India Ishii-ids, to which she
would direst her attention, that we had any means
of influencing her, through the medium of the trade
which she would establish and carry on in those
Islands. He had heard no definite proposition made
as to the propriety or expediency of continuing the
War: it seemed, according to the arguments of
Gentlemen on the other side, that we were to carry
on the War merely for. the purpose of taking the
chance of whatever might occur ; they did not; state
a probability of effeaing a change in the state of
Europe, but they were contented with a bare pos-
sibility: Alccoqng to those arguments, we were
to continue theAV4r for the mere purpose of not. be-
. ing at 'Peace. We s' ere to go to War merely for the
possibility ofa change in the affairs of Europe, and if
this did not happen soon, we might exhaust our re-
-sources before it did happen ; and supposing it did
not happen in any reasonable time, we should be un-
der the necessity of making Peace
.upon terms much
less honourable and advantageous, to this Country.
There were Gentlemen on the other side of the
House who thought it. was right. to make
but contended that the Peace shelved that we had

A

completely failed in all the objects of the War.
failure on our part there had been none : the °.hl'ett
of the War had always been stated to be to Proviu_e
for our. safety : we had not failed ; so far from it
Li) _
we were then in that House, after escaping from
Revolutionary, furor to which almost every Power
which,,had come into contact with it, except our-
selves, had fallen vi6tim.—Here we were la
the midst of our ancient Constitutional Rights!
We had been engaged with Europe, in which
we could only assist, but -it was, ,never ima-
gined that we were to overcome the Enemy by,
dint of our own strength. They all remembered
the time when the dread of French principles was
so great; that Mr. Burke said it was better
yield
he conquered by any other Nation than to
to the principles of France, who. had voluntarli
torn herself from the civilized. world, from which
it was evident they meant to keep no terms wit!e!
society. Surely, then, it was a consolation that
France had now shewn a disposition to enter into
the pale of society, into which she was proceed
ing as fast as circumstances would admit. If .13"3-
parte had taken measures to extirpate Jacobinisal/
whatever might be his condua on other occasions, he
had certainly done a real service to mankind. The
.condua of Bonaparte in this instance was certain:
ly founded on good policy, as, if Jacobinism shouldae.tn;tablished in France, no other Government o°ld
-7.01ey repose.; and if Jacobinism should be establish.
ed any where else, it was clear that no govern
ment could exist in France. If Bonaparte wished .
extlreatejacobnism, it was certainly sound Potici"'
as,. whilst it was suffered to exist, there was
ri
security tor the existence of Government there --e
any. where else.. With resoeet to the cession -„f
Louisiana to Se
pain, the value and the importaen
of that cession had been only discovered wirhi" 3
feW nights preceding, and he believed that the qur-
tion had not been over-looked before, pot only ill
them but by their ancestors. It was former,/
the possession of France, when France svas'reffe6'ete)r:
alive to her own interest ; but
,she had not u-",
e 5 which it
ceaeobfi,eetedtnotdodedrtahmsevinigfrolbytmheiitidleetitirrit,:vsr:edaatfytriovomafntiaitg; j,ouisi and ryas
sFpri;teendhad against saidthis
Countrythat ws
of
-
to tlr
of Louisiana ; but for this he could see no,reas°ll,i
tiot ‘tvhaes
dtlaienzveortuanruitsrlyn
ould not Per-
caves that degree of 'injury to this Council
With
which had been pourtrayed. It was ceded
arising
Bfs.rpija,mini
ifatwg,sorpeu,,..hicliedin7cf
ss
France at the Peace of r 763, and no danger v`',.3,5
I then apprehended from that cession,
eiough the
Ministers of that day were .fully competent to dis-
cover that danger,. if it really existed. The only
danger likely to result from it that he could diseol
ver, arose from bringing France in contact
the United States of America.. It might happen 1,3 c
the ccrurse of ages, that some danger might rest"
from this connection, but it would not soon, afn;
doubtedly. He had much doubt whether
te
Treaty of Utrecht, alluded to by the Hon. Baro'
would have prevented the cession of Loui„jaita off,
Spain.. All that Treaty declared was, that 4,41ir
should not cede any oilier territories to France; '1,16•
LOuisiana having been ceded to France bY. the,
Treaty of 1763, it became a question, wit..th-o'.ls!or
cession of it now • again 'to France was a breis':o of
'that Treaty. With respect to the non_reVi‘:•‘
, Treaties, he was of opinion that those Ge nt`eit'his
who had brought forward arguments fipiost 0,-nect
omission in the Definitive Treaty,, bad °fir&
against themselves. They had brought for'''bor
claims on the part .of France, which „,
admitted were utterly 'destitute of foooLla"°:fc
They had assumed. an injustice on tl'e • }lis •
of France, and proved that former Trel:' r.
ought to have been revived by the very 5510"bsii).•
glyntierryn nu
;vcf..uour
if 74,rnadneeretdhiossreegla'rr,eleadtiels,realahtie;
,for the purpose of reviving former clairns,whi°
••
;lieeti, settled by those TreatieS., then all•Tre3"ec,.
~with her Would" If this waS4he•ell3ro.:
ter of the French GoVernmerit we-ought to.be the
stantly at war- with her, and publicly to state, Of
reason of it. Confidence begot confideuce, ai-oct;sia
, we entertained these opinions of France, we shc:
be acting in the same manner as •.the French Dris
tory, who received every declaratiOn of ours w'n'cce.
declaration on their side that they doubted our since
rity. It was certainly not fair to rut int(' the rriQ
.of France claims and pretensions which we lie gee
reprobated and condemned. With respeil to he
neral.ground of the 'revival of former Treat-ie." he
was not disposed to admit the propriety of its eu
beer'.
sin posed that some 'motive which he had riot
teier
able to discover, had induced, the renewal of r°l:o`cee
Treaties in other Negotiations. There ~''ere 5 if
instances at least in wliiche:as in the resent ciase'ree
former Treaties were reneWed, they would °c bac!!
need without. an objed.to refer to. France
ese,,
generally began in former Treaties with the r7for,
al of the Treaty of Westphalia, and proceede" •0
atl I -
ward from thence. Jr. was asserted that we °est d
this instance departed from the established 1,30 t sot
Nations ; but respe6tinee the pratticer it was '-'
oarselv
ltad
uniforni as it seemed td be supposed. Trgatiesritiome,
been before made with France, in which no men
°£,..,
was made of former Treaties : in the Treaurnico.`
Ryswick and Utrecht, f.:r instance, no "'cod
sto ;
was made of' fortner Treaties ; yet Europe
before. There were several 'Treaties between I'ol
• won -so
Country and France, which if now renewed, be.
not only have miobjea "to refer to ;la •
but wouresept
absOlutely contrary, to their opet'ation, to the l'e,3enff.'
situation of affairs. In adverting to the renerystoo;
former Treaties, it should have been stated f°,--2,entle'
purpose they ought to he renewed, for unless `-,fecarl '
men could spew him some benefit to be deriv4t4
that renewal, he could see no reason for it. . em.'onr
was stated to be the consequence Of this (3111-Ifl -61
• which was, that all Treaties, not renewed,
ghthe
i‘
t
the ground : there were some which
be thou
£0
was of little consequence whether they
fells tirade,
• ground or not. For instance, if a cessi‘en •wa
of ee-
it. became absolutely part of the dominioen•lio cono„
Countryseltlet,ee tttiiiawt htiheeh
r%evaatsyceded e. it was A the
was not renewed
part)" ,5 ,•
the - Ado
ritury ceded could not revert back to •
event of a War and a subsequent, Peace, • cc(
f 1-10111" t,
dig. • Thus, with respea to the Bay u ctoo -•
• which had been :Alluded to, it was soul •tO •by
ful
dyne
; to Lilt Log wood there was 00-

e the • -
rnon-renewal of former Treaties. In the irst
eedhowever, it was not very clear that we de-
n our tittt to it froth a Treaty ; and, in the
we were in possession of the right of proper-
Y at ;he commencement of the War, which we had
rvai
and still held at the conclusion of the
rF r• Tne right of property, therefore, still
julai,'ed in this Country, and there could not be a
e 'use inserted 'n the Treaty to give us that +filch
11" had never lost ; we merely restored what we
lad taken possession of; what we had before
I'()'`essed in our own right, must remain vested in
see same manner, without any necessity tor it being
tlstipulated by Treaty. With respeEl to these
, reaties, the ground on which Gentlemen con-
ed kas, that we were left in that quarter
,7 the '...salobe without security or safety against
le Claims which France might set up against
tl3* It waset singular circumstance, if the Treaty
set aside all Claim:, that we should still be subject to
them. We had got into a whimsical debate
Up the subject. They all agreed that there
rwas no doubt as to our rights ; yet they were dis-
41ssing amongst themselves whether France might
.not dispute those claims with us. It seemed we were
to implore France to negotiate with us on a sub_
Jett iii respect of which we said there was no dis-
Ptite• The offer ought to come from her. No, it
"as said they must go to France and state to her
rtain claims which we requested. her to give up ;
nd it was perfeetly natural to suppose that France,
finding she had such claims, would demand a com-
tnsation for giving them .p: this was a complete
t vtrsion of our situation ; we were to ask her not
inattempt, what she had not attempted. The De-
yitive Treaty gave France nothing but the FaCto-
ii_Jes and Possessions which she had at the commence-
of the War. Under the Treaty of 1733, she
Tight claim, according to the provisions of that
.iit'ty, various rights with respeet to trade, found_
tt. e:Pon ancient documents : but we now gave
er notiong
but what we had taken from her during
thetiV He should like to know whether a ques.
tT°l could be set up as to her claims of rights of
;ire tinder that treaty. He should have thought,
:ti'ist France, if she set up any claims, would do it
nder the Convention of 1787, that being in his
,iniOn the only plausible chitin which she could
By saying that we gave her factories, it
question-which might he started, whether we
be4'4le her these rights..of trade which she. formerly
t4eh'k'd, mese rights were restored as they
.tlsted before the 'War, or whether France only
heteeived her Possessions according to the letter of
bet Treaty; but in all his reading, he had never
11;:r'I'T'of U question' which -was now started,
t rieinee might pass by the commencement; of,
ti.e War, and mount up to any indeterminate pe-
but for the pufpose of establishing claims ; he
44(.1, never heard
,any such question arise out of
teat; the sitigle question was, whether she
Otlired only by the Treaty, or received the
tart'ileges which she enjoyed at the commence_
er't of the War ? If the latter was to be the
4ase' as Gentlemen on the other side contended,
ilud that a Nation was to acquire that which she
tti4el not gained by conquest or concession, but
.eelY because she was conquered, whilst the con-
, teltlhe•rut lost something, it was one of the most
,I,4l,siCal arguments he had ever heard adduced.
ty2"l'S dOEtrine of elaims, which were not claimed,
44',10 be set up, it would be necessary to bring
oe its
ezertiors of imagination, and the superduftion
et, everY probability into a Negotiation, and to
t!~t°Se a person of the most lively fancy, to assist
inrerY Ambassadore he must retire to his closet, and
etZi env and contrive every thing that his imagination
c sug'gest, that might be made the subject of
the dispute by the adversary. Then, let all
ilesse be inserted in the Treaty. He would not
th l'ass any fOrther upon the House ; he trusted that
stlec,:iace would stand justified, and that whilst they
its bless'"" rove themselves fully capable of preserving
boaings, they would be ready, if War became
v'idAble to meet it with firmness and with
nergy. '
• Z.,
ttl,h • L IV RENCE began with observing, that
ti' was his opinion of the judgment of his Right
.eoo?Prable Friend who had just spoken, that he
iner" "ever differ from him without feeling an
.11,e I'd
to review his own. He complimented
,liii,„Reight Hel. Gentleman who had last spoken
of nis great talents, and the display he had made
pies elotice to night,
g the but could not help COM_
atatniti manner in which Ministers had
touted that they were nor fairly treated in the
the se "f this discussion. Upon former arguments,
bpoY hail sail, they had nothing to move themselves
° the subjeel of the Definitive Treaty, and •yet
saels.had Come forward with a specific motion, 'the
vtie of which was, to approve of their own
the `i• He then proceeded to take a view of
av4s Present state of Europe, observing, that it
to a not particularly to the Italian Republic, or
tent?' one point in particular, that he and other
the etn.en on that side of the House imputed
lierkePtesent situation of this Country. From
tikeatote the necessity, as he. conceived it, of
Wit:rie6tion made by his Right Hon. Friend,' (Mr.
t4ll—"arn) upon a view of the whole taken to.:
poner• He then expatiated at considerable length
Int 3., tile state of Europe, and passed from thence
• the history of Louisiana, which he stated to
extrethel
eat y different now from what it had been;
kits_
.mer periods, which difference he elaborately'
`4lbed, contending that every thing which had
een Ur
:11r1 this ged by Geotlernen on that side of the Housei
Pteec sobjett was perfeetly well founded. He then
ed
„ita'a, eedto take a view of Malta, of which he'
a histOry, and observed, it was not to be
nsete,_ ,
"creot as of advantage to us, in the charatier of
ell. ttal State , for if it was' at the bottom of the
the,aitj the tol,w(nlid he no advantage to us in any event-
-.31..31. use we' could make of it, that was advan-
os
.theuliscto ourselves, was that of a guarantee against
,their Rion of France and to check the progress of
attibie
.9it . which, he believed, extended to the
fe ndtes•• He then proceeded to take a view of the
e‘ii.getee,u,t `Treaties in which Country had bcci;
tatiera at'different periods; for the rwo last cen-
and maint-iined.' it 'h .the .0
Pv{fieY of ()in. a' been ..the
~uniform
ancestors to renew or modify them at.,
fitmeeene.lnsion of every Peace, to a departure
te. which
'4sl 14_, Policy, he gave a charaCter of rah:,-
le then entered into a general reasoning

.• • m
.
• upon the policy 'Well will held forth in the motion
of his Right Iron. Friend, not as interfering with
the good faith to be observed in the. Treaty, but as
a necessary system of precaution to be observed by
this Country, for its own security:
..
Mr. BOND said, he could not at that late hour
' of the night, -enter at large into the -sUbjed now be-
fore the House; which had been so ably treated on
that side of the House; particularly by his Noble
' Friend last night, and that night by his Right
Honourable and Learned Friend; who had dis.
played every thing which ingenuity; learning,
information, talents, and eloquence could furnish.
—lt was impossible for him to say that he could
add any thing to what had been said already,
upon that side of the subject ; it would be the
extreme of arrogance in him to suppose he could
do so : he only begged leave to call the attention
of the House to what he considered to be the real
question. Gentlemen on the other side of the
House, and his Learned Friend who had just spoken,
had displayed great ability ; he would not say, whe-
ther they had, or had not, produced much effect upon
the Public, by the manner in which they treated the
subjea : he would not impute to his Learned Friend;
nor to any other Gentleman on that side of the
House, any intention of making unfavourable impres- ,
sions upon any persons who heard him, or upon the
Public, by the observations which they made, but cer-
tainly such was the tendency of their arguments. It
was true indeed, they professed to have no intentions
l to censure any body, but notwithstanding their pro.
fessions, it was impossible not to perceive that
the effect of all their observations was to convey
censure both upon the Beare, and upon the Mini-
sters by whom it was negotiated. He wished to
know whether there was any fad by which it could be
fairly concluded, that better terms could be obtained ,
than those in the Treaty now upon the table ? If there ,
was not, why should the Treaty he disapproved of,
or its authors be deserving of censure in tnat House,
or elsewhere t?—He was aware there could not be
found matter of complaint either against the Treaty
or its authors. It was true, indeed, that the Treaty
could not be declared to be perfett—no Treaty was
ever so : nothing could be easier than for specula.
rive Men to form expectations in their.closets, but
to bring them into alive life and reality, was often
found impracticable. Such was the case in the present
instance ; innumerable difficulties must occur in the
course of such a Negotiation,many of which were in-
capable of explanation from their very nature ; but a
bare reference to which would be sufficient for the
common sense of that House. He then proceeded
to observe upon some of those difficulties, and said,
that he was very.far from intending .to insinuate
that the spirit of the people of this Country was
broken, but it must be admitted, that, from the
circumstances of the War, they had wished for
Peace, nor was it unnatural they should do so.—
The great load of the National Debt could not '
be forgotten ; the pressure of scarcity which we
had endured, in some instances bordering upon
famine, were hardships which must have an effect
upon the Public : fTm the consideration of this,
it was the business of every good Administra-
tion to enter into Negotiation—not that he meant
to alledge that Peace was a matter of absolute ne-
cessity, but it certainly was a matter of prudence.
Ministers in concluding Peace lead, therefore, in his
opinion, done every thing that prudence could dic-
tate. That, however, was but half their work, the
remaining part was to preserve entire our resources,
to preserve, as much as possible, by wise measures,
the spirit of the People, in order that if ever the
evil hour should arrive, we should have the ability
and disposition to oppose, with effed, the ambiti.
ous projetts of our rival, It was by such prepara-
tions alone that the prosperity of this Country could
he secured, which he heartily hoped, and confident-
ly trusted, we should long continue to enjoy.
Colonel FULLARTON said. a few ' words, which
we could not hear.

Mr. WILLIAMS WYNNE expressed himself
dissatisfied with several parts of the Treaty of Peace,
although he did not wish that the good faith of it
should not be preserved : he reviewed the Treaty,
assigning reasons for his discontent, and shoving
why, in his opinion, the House ought to adopt the
.Address moved by his Right Hon. Friend.
The C ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in this exhausted state of the House, and, he
could add, the exhausted state of the question, it'
would he unpardonable in him to ask the attention
of the House for any considerable length of time ;
but there were some points to which he felt it his
duty to call the attention of the House. He con-
curred with his Right Hon. Friend, in opinion,
that the turn of the argument of the Right Hon.
Gentlemen on the other side of the House, amount-
ed to this—That the Definitive Treaty' now upon
the Table, was such as ought to be approved
of. He concurred with his Learned Friend,
who, for the first time, be had the happiness
of hearing in that House, and whom' he hoped he
should often hear, that the tendency of the argu.
mews of Gentlemen on the other side went to cen.

sure the Peace, and to censure also those who ad-
vised His Majesty to enter into it. He hoped
therefore he should be pardoned, if notwithstand-
ing the disclaiming 'of Gentlemen on the other
side, and partiallarly a Right Hon. Gentleman
who spoke towards the close of last night's De-
bate, the tendency of the arguments, whatever the
intention might be, was to bring the Peace into
disrespeEt as well as to censure His Majesty's Mi-
nisters. His Right Hon. Friend from whom the 4d.
dress proceeded, he was free to acknowledge, made
his proposition from genuine principle§, for they
trtainly were genuine, by which he had been in-
fiuenced, not only in that Motion, but during the
course of the contest in which we had been engaged.
He thought he perceived from the proposition of his
Right Hon. Friend, the same disPNition which led
him, some time ago, to declare in that House, soon
after the Preliminaries, his disapprobation of the
Peace altogether. That disapprobation he expressed
in terms almost unqualified—he had declared his
opinions against the power of France, and the usur-
pations of that Power; and by the manner in which
he made that declaration, he must have censured the
Peace itself, as a death-blow to' the prosperity
,of
this Country. He was truly convinced that his
Right Honourable Friend, if he entertained the
same sentiments, which he coulfinever disguise, not

ever attempt to disguise; these sentiments went
the length of considering.' that any Peace with the
present. Government •of France was inadmissible.
That he had signified when the Peace was made,
and before lie knew the terms : he had then con-
sidered -the Peace itself as a death-blow to the pro-
sperity of this Country ; this had always been the
opinion of his Right Hon. Friend upon the subject,
and that it was his opinion still, which he thought
Was pretty clearly expresSed by the Motion he made
upon the subject. Other Gentlemen, he was pers;hl4-
ed, who Concurred in the opinion, that the Peace was
not such as this Country had a right to exped, did
not concur hoWever with him in saying that Peace
ought not to be made at any rate; but his Right Hon.
Friend had always gone the full length of saying,
that any Peace with France in its 'present state was
inadmissible. He said this the more readily, be-
cause the ptinciples and the motives which aauated
his condud were truly honourable, and be could
not help adding, that if the principles of his Right
Hon. Friend, as expressed by the Motion now be-
fore the House, were adopted, they could not fail,
nay, they must inevitably lead to a speedy renewal
of the War. The question, however, now was,.
not whether a Definitive Treaty ought not to be
concluded, but whether, being concluded, it was
or was not, a proper measure ? He could not
help observing, however, that although Gentlemen
on the other side of the House had not said that this
subjed 'ought to have been discussed by piece-meal,
yet they certainly conducted themselves on that
principle, and had objeaed to the Treaty by piece-
meal ; but Ministers had laid their claim to discuss .
the subject altogether, and that was, in his opinion,
the wiser mode ; it was, therefore, by no means his
intention to enter into the minute particulars of the
Definitive Treaty, he should rather take a short
review of its general effea : indeed there was not
much necessary to be said by him—he had rather
refer the House to what had already been said by.
his friends to-night, and upon the former occa-
sion. They had treated the subject with so notch
knowledge, so much talent, so much infbrma-
don, and so much eloquence, that little need be
said in addition to what had been said already.—
He was ready to rest the defence of the measure up-
on 'svhat had already been said : he admitted tha t
circumstances Of a very great and important nature
had-taken place before the signing of the Definitive
Treaty, and between the signing of the I'reiimi_
nary and that of the Definitive Treaty—Tnints,
which required explanation ; and there were dif-
ferences between the Preliminary and Definitive
.Treaties, which it would be proper-for him to ex-
plain ; and, yet, having made all these admissions,
he did not hesitate a'king the House this question,
was it or was it not a Treaty which, under all the
circumstances, was fit fur His Majesty to engage in ?
Was it or was it not, under all the circumstances,
a Treaty which it was wise in His Majesty's Ser-
vants to advise His Majesty to assent to ? Having
said this, there were two or three points which he
should proceed to, explain, in the course of which
he shon4 have to solicit the attention of the House,
On 'the subjea of Louisiana, he said he should
say no more than appeared to be, necessary, by
way of answer to the danger which had been talked
of by Gentlemen on the other side, in 1762, both
Canada and Louisiana were in the possession of
the French, when Great Britain had large posses.
sions• in America, and the possession of Louisiana
and Canada was not enough to prevent Great
,Bri-
tain from being more titan a match for France.
Canada certainly being important, and Louisiana
being now said to he so, they were nevertheless un-
able to make a stand against Great Britain. What
was said to endanger us now, was the power of
France in that quarter, but which was not equal to
our own possessions and strength, and with the
friendship, for this purpose, at least, of an inde_
pendent, and now become a powerful and populous
Country, namely the United States of America.
Buravith rest to another point, namely the hazard
which ourcommercial interests was exposed to in this
quaiter, as had been stated, thus stood the fact : There
was a difference stated to exist between Louisiana and
Fort Hillsborough. There-mas not in Louisiana a
single port wherein a ship of the line could enter, and
in the other a ship of the line could not anchor without
taking out her guns. Nor was there any. danger to
our Commerce in that quarter, from the cession of
this place to France ;---,-the improvement which had
taken place in making copper-bottoms to our ships,
and other circumstances, gave us other great advan-
tages in that quarter, by enabling us to alter the
course of our navigation, by going through the
Windwaa.d Passage, instead of the Gulph of Mexico,
so that we should never be annoyed in that quarter
by the French, in the' manner in which Honourable

Gentlemen had stated. With resped to the diffe-
rence between the Definitive Treaty and the
Preliminary Articles, it was a question which he
would himself ask the House—Whether, under all
the circumstances, they were not satisfied that this
Definitive Treaty was a fair execution of the Pre.

Jiminary Artieles? He admitted they were not stritly
the same, and indeed if they were, there would have
been. no occasion for Preliminary Articles, because
they might as well at once have been made to assume
the form of a Definitive Treaty. There were five Ar.
ticks in the Definitive Treaty modified from that
of the Preliminary Articles—rst, the Article re-
speCling Prisoners ; zdly, that respecting New-
foundland ; 3dly, that of the State of Portugal ;
.4thly, that of Malta ; and sthlk, that of the Cape
of Good Hope. Now, undoubtedly, with regard
to three of these Articles, they were revived in
the Definitive Treaty, and finally settled in a way
that was advantageous—he meant those Articles
which related to the Prisoners, Newfoundland, and
Portugal. It was theiefore only as to Malta and
the Cape that any doubt could arise any where, as
to the difference between the Preliminary Articles
and the Definitive Treaty. Now, with respeCt to
Portugal,- he was really astonished that so much
had been said on the other side of the House, after,
so many explanations had been given of that sit!).
,jet{ he would not say that Gentlemen had a wilful
inileoneeption of that subject,', but he really knew
not. how.Gentlmen cotild-state the objeftiOns they
had stated so often, after the explanations which had.
been given to them upon that subject. He now,
averred again, that the Treaty of :Baciajos was
known to His Majesty's Ministers previous to. the

t'grs'ing of the Prerthinary-Article3, awl cammunicae
thin took }slice bet .veto us and the Court of Lisbeil
on theeebjed. of the limits of Portuguese and French
; we were given to understand the limitsl
ofPortuguese Guiana, and this created a determilia-
tion in us to afford them every protedion possible
there was art apprehension that they would not meet
their danger as danger ought to be met, and that
therefore they might .be induced to accept of terms
still mare disadvantageous thari those .vhich were
included in the Treaty of Hadajos. —What was the
candud of His M.!jesty's Ministers ? From an ue.
derstanding which Geetlernen comprehend
without calling for particulars, it was stipulated on
our part, that the Treaty of B idaj es should be in
force only in a particular manner, a- far as it relate
ed to the limits of Portuguese Guiana, and -it was
stipulated that a subsequent Treaty entered into, or
whieh might be entered into, fixing the limits more
disadvantageously to Portugal, should be null ani
void, as far as regarded these -limits were concerned.
The Treaty of Badajos, ie consequence of the die-
satisfadion of the French, was not ratified, but the
Treaty of Madrid was ratified, in which the term:
were much more disadvantageous. to Portugal,
than those of the Treaty of Bidajes, as far as re..
spelled the limits of the Portuguese Guiana. The
House would recoiled the explanation of his Noble
Friend upon that subjed, by which it appeared ma.
nifestly, that we had acted generously towards For.
tut al in this. respect, and this was so far supported
by the best evidence, that no objection was made to .
it on the past of the Court of Lisbon.—On the sub-
jed of Malta, he would, after so much had been said
already, say -.no more than, that the Noble Lord
(Lord • TEMPLE) misconceived the thing, if he
thought the Accounts to which he referred described
the whole of the Order of Malta, in point of Reve-
nue, for it related only to that part of the Revenue,
which grew out of the Customs. It had been asked
whether the King of Naples acquiesced in this mat-
ter ? to which he answered, that the acceptance
of the r King of Naples had been signified' in this
particular, and therefore all obje&ion on that Ar-
ticle was done away. Austria had also accepted
the Guarantee. Having thus gone through all that
.appeared to him to be necessary to particularize,
after what had been urged from others quarters, he
would ask, whether this was or was not, under all
the circumstances, fit to he, entertained by the.
House, and worthy of its support ? lie was not de-
siring that it should be praised—He had never •
thought of this Treaty, nor of the Preliminary
Articles, with any sentiment of exultation ; he had
satisfied himself, and he remained satisfied, that it
was that •, which upon the whole was the hest
measure which could be taken'he had never en-
deavouredao paint it in false colours—he had never
attempted to apply to it any epithets of prai ;
he was content with the refleaion that he had not
tarnished the honour of the Country by the mea-
sures he had adopted—he had long been of opinion,'
and he trusted he should never change it, that
there was no extremity of distress which a Na-
tion had not rather . suffer, than that its honour
should be tarnished. For honour was another
word for the strength of a Nation ; hut if he were
asked, -why, under such circumstences, and after
an additional proof of the ambitious views of France
and of its-power, by the transadion of Lyons, this
Country had abstained from making remonstrances,
or from taking any step to signify to our adveriary
the feelings of His Majesty on that occasion ? To
this he, would answer, that Gentlemen who 'ar-
gued a-case like this,, had many advantages over a
person in situation.—They would easily put
questions to bins which it was impossible for him to •
answer ; • and they might state. obstacles which it
was difficult, if not impossible for a Minister to re-
move in the way of argument, its a manner that .was
at once satisfactory to those who made the objedion,
and consistent with the duty of
.the Minister. He
would only say, that it•*as matter ofgreat satisfac-
don with him and with the rest of His-Majesty's •
Ministers, that they were determined, in the event
of the failure of. the Negotiation,' to have laid
before the House every document they possessed
upon the subject, and possess the House of complete
information upon it.—He thought, after 'this, it
would have been almost tautology in him to say, that
he was at least satisfied it would appear by this in-
-formation, the honour of this Country was not tar.
nished by any thing that was done by His Majes.
ty's Miriiiters in the course of this Negotiation
he trusted it would appear by these documents, had
it become necessary to shew them 'to the House, His
Majesty's Ministers had felt, as they ought to feel,
as British Ministers, and that their conduft was
such as would haVe met with the approbation and
support of that House. But if the question was put
to him, he would answer if, not by any particular
statement, but 'relying on what had been said al-
ready by'his friends, who had stated the case in
terms that were very forcible, that an attempt oa
the part of Great Britain to maintain alone the can_
test with France until her territorial power in Eu-
rope was abridged considerably, wit, an unwise
measure.—That the extent of that territorial power
was matte( of regret, was unquestionable. It could
not but be matter of regret, but it was a lot which
we had not the power of controlling—we were
not to presume to say the bounty of Providence
was to be dispensed in the way 'that was most con-
sonant to our wishes. We ought to be contented
with the conviftion that we had abundant means of
providing for our own security in a separate state
and condition e. but we were not able, under all
the circumstances by which the greater part of the
world was: affeded, to provide for that security on
a large scale which connected us with the security
of other PoNers ; that depended upon events over
which we had nu control. He could only say, he
was astonished that his Right Hon. Friend, (Mr.
WINDHAM,) whose heart, he was persuaded, was
deeply interested in these things, and even now che-
rished the hope, perhaps, of' recovering all that had
been lost in the Contest, should not long ago have
been satisfied with the arguments, or rather that his
own enlightened mind should not have anticipated.
the arguments by which the expediency of making
Peace was demonstrable, and that even upon the
very, principle of his Right Honourable Friend hine.
self, which was this, that if ever Austria and
Prussia, and other Powers. should recover
power, and regain the instinationd obtaining w;,,at