The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-22 00:00:00

also. It was now abolished, and he was glad of it. All these
settlements had been left out of the bill. The only other
change was that which related to the law of bastardy. That
was, he would say, a bold, yet it was a most necessary change,
and he was sure it was a most salutary one. The existing law
with regard to bastardy, was a most injurious one, both as re-
garded the woman and the man. It left both in that state that
the one trusted to the consequences falling on the other. He
(the Lord Chancellor) would go one step farther than this.
He would say that it stirred up the frailties of the flesh ; for
the woman reasoned in this way—" If I become the mother of
a child to this man, I will compel him to marry me." In ad-
dition, then, to the natural infirmities of the flesh, the woman
often proceeded to the commission of the offence from a cool
calculation of the advantage, in this point of view, to which
she might turn it. It furnished a soporific to her conscience,
by looking forward to marriage as the probable result of her
crime. The new law with regard to bastardy was the same in
principle as that on which the Judges of the land legislated
every day in cases of conjugal infidelity. It would make the
woman trust to herself; it would make her the preserver and
protector of her own virtue ; it would prevent her yielding to
the solicitations of her seducers, when yielding would gain
her nothing, but make her lose every thing. The seducer in
that case would storm the citadel, and beat at the door in
vain. He had now gone through all the important parts of
this measure. In addressing their Lordships at such length
on the measure, he certainly had not been led into the
question by the seductions of the subject. He had no plea-
sure, no delight, in contemplating the scenes of degradation
and unhappiness which the state of the labouring classes
of this country presented, and to which he had called their
Lordships' attention. In undertaking the performance of
the task, he was actuated solely by a sense of public duty.
It was this sense of public duty which alone vanquished the
reluctance he felt to bring the subject before their Lordships.
Never in• the whole course of his life did he feel so relieved,
as when his Noble Friend, late at the head of his Majesty's
Government, consented to move the second reading of the.
Bill. He had in the whole course of his political life taken a
lively interest in the subject of the poor laws, and as soon as
he came into office he had resolved on bringing their present
state under the consideration of Parliament, and was only de-
terred from doing so by the all-absorbing subject of the Re-
form Bill. After the Reform Bill, the Commission for an In-
quiry into the State of the Poor Laws was issued, and it be-
came needless and of no effect to bring the matter then forward
till such time as the report of the Commissioners was made.
Those circumstances had retarded the bringing forward of this
measure; but having been connected with the subject, from
the circumstances which he had mentioned, he did not shrink
from the duty which the bringing forward of it imposed
upon him. He declared that he had no sinister motive in
bringing it forward. He neither wished to distinguish him-
self, nor did he wish to court popularity for the Government
of which he was a member. He felt that, with the greatest
portion of the country, no apology was necessary for having
brought forward this measure. It was only necessary to those
who did not understand the subject. The only risk the Go-
vernment ran was from misconception among the more igno-
rant of the people, arising from misdirection and a mistaken
notion of the views and objects which the Government had in
bringing forward the measure. The Government sought no
advantage from the measure in any manner as a party. They
resolved manfully to do their duty—neither looking to the right
nor to the left—regardless whom they might irritate, or whom
alarm, but resolved to act for the good of the people them-
selves, who had hitherto cordially trusted them--( Hear)—
determined to consult the real good of the people, and trusting
to the support and co-operation of the enlightened, the ra-
tional, and the honest portion of the community.
Lord W YNFO RD said that if the evil was so great, and
had been of such long continuance, as had been represented
by the Noble Lord, there could not be much inconvenience in
postponing it to another session. The House of Commons
had taken two months to consider of this measure, -and having
now got into the close of July, there could be little expectation
that their Lordships would have more than a fortnight to
dispose of so important a Bill, if it was to be proceeded with
this session. He was confident their_ Lordships would per-
ceive the impossibility of passing it this session, and it was
useless, therefore, to waste time by attempting to carry it
through its future stages. It was impossible that their
Lordships could pay proper attention to the measure, and he
objected strongly to its being passed in a hurried manner, be-
cause it would furnish an argument to those who were en-
deavouring to cry down their Lordships' privileges.—( Hear,
hear.) It would be said that the House of Lords required
no time for the consideration of such a measure—that
they passed it within a few days after it was sent to them
—that they were contented to yield at once, and pass the
Bill without any consideration. The Noble and Learned
Lord had assumed that all the evils he had described pro-
ceeded from bad poor laws, and a worse administration of
them. This, however, was taking a narow view of the sub-
ject. Many of the evils enumerated had nothing to do with
the poor laws, and many of the witnesses examined had attri-
buted those evils to other causes. What circumstances had oc-
curred to alter the state of the country? Many circumstances
had occurred which tended to place the labouring classes in a
worse situation. Without saying whether he approved of
those circumstances or not, he would state that the alteration
in the currency was one of those circumstances : but the more
important one was the alteration in the corn laws, and the con-
tinued threats of other alterations in them, which frightened
the farmers from cultivating the land. If their Lordships
would attend to the evidence before the Committee of the
House of Commons, and also that before a Committee of
their Lordships, they would see that the poor who were in em-'
ployment were better off now than in former times, comparing
the price of corn at the respective periods. To what, then,
was the misery of the people to be attributed ? To the fact
that they were out of employment. Did this Bill, however,
suggest a means of their obtaining employment ? The state
of indolence in which they were situated engendered those
vices of which the Noble and Learned Lord complained. In
fact, the great mass of poverty had nothing to do with the poor
laws, but was rather to be attributed to the distressed state of
the farmer, which was such,"owing to the changes in the corn
laws, that the poor lands were altogether driven out of culti-
vation. the Noble and Learned Lord had spoken of the con-
dition of the poor as if it was wholly attributable to the poor
laws, but he (Lord Wynford) said that the poor laws had little
to do with the present state of the poor. The increase of po-
pulation had enhanced the difficulty of procuring labour, and
had rendered it necessary for the Magistrates to depart from the
principle of the poor laws. The spread of population, too, the
Noble and Learned Lord attributed to the poor laws ; but if
that were the case, we should not find the population increase
as it had done in Ireland, where there were no poor laws.
We could never hope effectually to amend the condition of the
poor in this country, until we had improved the state of the
people of Ireland. The pauper population of Ireland would,
until their condition was improved, come over here to better
themselves. They had already done so to a great extent, and
had driven the poor of this country from employment in
towns, and were fast driving them from employment in agri-
cultural districts. By this Bill, Parliament was telling the
people of England that it proposed nothing which would re-
lieve them, because, in this respect, which was the most im-
,portant part of the case, nothing was to be done. Another
principle to which he felt it necessary to call their Lordships'
attention, was the allowance system—namely, giving relief
from the poor rates to persons who were actually employed.
It might be said that this Bill would effectually guard against
that system. He did not believe that it would, or that the
framers of that Bill believed it would, for if they did, what
occasion was there to give to the Commissioners the powers
which the magistrates at present possessed ? He was con-
vinced, that unless they could raise the rate of wages, this prin-
ciple could not be dispensed with. If wages were not lowered,
even if they continued at their present rate, it was impossible
for a man, with a wife and ten children, to lodge, clothe,
and maintain his family. Allusion had been made by the
Noble and Learned Lord to Mr. Pitt, of whose great and dis-
tinguished talents he had spoken with proper respect. That
great and distinguished man knew that some provision of this
kind was necessary ; and the Bill which he proposed, although
in many respects defective, yet was in this point infinitely pre-
ferable to the present. Mr. Pitt proposed that when a labour-
ing man had a certain number of children some assistance
should be given, and that the amount of that assistance should
be defined by law. In the course of the arguments upon this
Bill it had been said that the fault of the present system was
not in the law, but in the manner in which it was administered
by the Magistrates. He did not mean to say that there might
not have been many cases in which the Magistrates had acted
indiscreetly, but he denied that such cases were by any means
so frequent as seemed to be supposed ; and when it was said
that those from whose pockets the money was to come were
too liberal in the distribution of it, he saw no reason for alter-
ing the administration of the law. The payment of wages out
of the poor rates was only done when it was impossible for a
man to get wages for his labour to support his family. The
Noble and Learned Lord complained of the law. He (Lord
I,Vynford) had never heard the statute of Elizabeth complained
of; but he agreed with Adam Smith, in complaining of the Act
of Charles 11. Part of that Act, he says, was not improved by
this Bill. The statute of Elizabeth said that when a man was
impotent he should have relief. He hoped the country would
never be without a poor law on that principle. He agreed
with the Noble and. Learned Lord in the observations he
had made with respect to settlement by birth, and by
marriage ; but with respect to apprenticeship, his opinion
was, that taking away the right of settlement arising from
apprenticeship would be a most unjust, cruel, and impolitic
measure. He wondered the Noble and Learned Lord did not
recollect that not two years since a Bill had come up from
, the House of Commons embodying this principle, and pre-
venting persons from gaining settlements by apprenticeship to
mariners. He (Lord. Wynford) had opposed that Bill on
grounds applicable to the present measure. The effect of such
a provision was, that a youth was sent as apprentice from a
country parish to a seaport town. That town derived the be-
nefit of his labour 'for six years and upwards ; and yet at the
expiration of his apprenticeship, instead of acquiring a settle-
ment there, he was liable to be sent back to his native parish,
which had derived no benefit from his labour, and to bring into
it not only the vices of a town, but the burden of a wife and
family. There was one principle to which he wished to direct
the attention of their Lordships—namely, that of making
loans" of money to the poor. He had seen many instances in
which great advantage had arisen from such advances, because
they were checks upon habits of improvidence. He had had
occasion to see how beneficial the operation of such a check
would be in the town of Nottingham, where the habits of the
labouring classes were so improvident that it had often hap-
pened that persons in the lace trade, who earned four or five
guineas a week, were within a fortnight afterwards, living on
the parish. With respect to bastardy he was glad that framers
of the Bill had not folloWed the recommendation of the Com-
missioners. He believed that recommendation would not have
had the effect of reducing the number of bastards ; but even if
it were likely to reduce the number by nine-tenths, he

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 22, 1834,

would rather that nine-tenths more of illegitimate children
should be born than that the one-tenth should be liable
to have the hands of the parents turned against their own
offspring. The statute of Elizabeth held out no temptations to
women to plunge into vicious courses, in order to increase
their income ; for it did not say that the money was to be
given to the mother, so as to increase her fortune in proportion
to the number of children which she had. It was to be paid
to the parish officers as an indemnity for the expense to which
they were put, and they were to make her such allowance,
either in the workhouse or elsewhere, as they thought proper.
If this provision were strictly acted upon, it would effectually
remove any temptation which arose from the consideration
which had been suggested. This Bill would not take away
the 'promise of marriage which generally accompanied such
cases of seduction ; and, in his opinion, it would little dimi-
nish the number of cases of bastardy. He was convinced that
acting in strict conformity with the Act of Elizabeth would be
a much more effectual check upon bastardy. In fact, it ap-
peared in the evidence that wherever that statute had been
strictly acted upon, bastardy was less frequent. He now
came to a part of the Bill which gave him more pain. It had
from the commencement excited a kind of horror in his mind
that the people of England were to be exposed to the new
power which was to be conferred upon the three Commis-
sioners, or rather the twelve Commissioners. It was said
that there must be a Central Board, in order that there
might be one uniform system. He said it was impossible
to have a uniform system, and a Central Board would be
useless, because they would not have the local knowledge
necessary to direct the administration of the law in the
various parishes.—( Hear.) He said that three Commissioners
could never from a distance, with the quantity of occupation
with which they would be overwhelmed, control the persons
who were to administer the law in the 12,000 parishes of Eng-
land. The central board, therefore, would be impotent as to
good, but most potent for evil. They had the power of order-
ing the unions of parishes, and he said that the junction of
town parishes to country parishes would tend more to the dis-
semination of immorality than any other measure that could
be introduced. The union of parishes had been tried, and
found inexpedient. Property would be materially affected by
the arbitrary power of the commissioners to combine and se-
parate parishes wherever they pleased. But that was not all.
The commissioners were also to hire officers, and to pay them
whatever salary they pleased. They were to subpcena wit-
nesses, and make the parishes pay the expenses which they oc-
casioned ; and they were to have the entire control of all the
money that was raised in the country for the relief of the poor.
They were to prescribe the amount which the poor were to re-
ceive from the rate-payers, and regulate it as they pleased, at
the disposal of the commissioners. The Noble and Learned
Lord had spoken of some 50 bills in which as large powers
were given as in this Bill, but he (Lord Wynford) would under-
take to say there never had been such power conferred by any
Bill. Judge Blackstone was struck with horror when it was
first proposed, in the instance of the Mutiny Bill, that the
King should have the power of making and deciding upon laws,
and of executing them, but now a still greater power was
about to be given to the Commissioners than that which had
been considered too great to be given to the King, for they
were to have the power of delegating their authority to nine
other persons who were unknown in Parliament, and to the
King. It was impossible not to see that poor under the con-
trol of these Commissioners, who were not only to regulate
the amount of their miserable pittance, but to decide whether
they should receive it at liberty or locked up in a workhouse,
would be more complete slaves than the serfs on the continent,
the villains in former days, or the slaves who had been recently
emancipated in the West Indies. Were such powers to be
given to the Commissioners without an imperative necessity
being shown for it ? He said that the establishment of a per-
manent Board of Officers, to be appointed by the King and paid
by the House of Commons, would be a most dangerous prece-
dent. If such a principle were extended to the army and navy,
the constitution of the country would be gone, and the control
of the army and navy would be completely taken from the
King, and placed under the House of Commons. These were
his objections to the Bill. It would not be possible to make
such alterations in the Committee as would correct the
evils which were embodied in the measure, and therefore he
wished it to be postponed to another session in order that their
Lordships might have time to consider it and to obtain the ad-
vice of practical men. They might procure from each pail of
the country much practical knowledge as to the working of the
Poor Laws, and he was convinced that much practical know-
ledge would show that no general system of administration
could be adopted. He could not but foresee that this measure
would be attended with an evil to which the Noble and
Learned Lord had not adverted. It might create alarm
amongst the poor ; and although that alarm might be ground-
less, still it would be dangerous to bring the poor into imme-
diate contact with the Government. It would be better—in
case of complaint—to have to say that it was the fault of the
local magistrates. But here, in case of complaint, it would be
extensive and general, and would be directed at once against
the Government of the country, 'whose immediate organ the
commissioners would be. He entreated their Lordships to
proceed with caution in a measure of such importance. He
wished that they should have further time to consider it, and
therefore moved that the Bill should be read a second time that
day six months.
The Earl of WINCHIL SEA said it was his intention to
support the second reading of the Bill, but that he must at
the same time express his anxious hope that it would receive
amendment in some of the clauses, which he would briefly
state, because he thought that the alterations which might be
made in it would tend to render it more beneficial to the la-
bouring classes than it would be as it stood at present. He
viewed this Bill as second in importance to none which had
ever been brought forward—whether he regarded it with re-
ference to its relief to those parts of the kingdom which were
weighed down by the burdens imposed upon them by the mal-
administration of the poor laws, which, in fact, had brought
them into a state of actual ruin and bankruptcy—or whether
he looked to its more important effect as regarded the moral
character and the independence of the labouring classes of the
people, for whose benefit he considered the measure, if carried
to a conclusion, very much calculated. Those who opposed
the Bill had not met the acknowledged abuses of the pre-
sent system by proposing any remedy, and their Lordships
were therefore called upon to give the question their se-
rious attention, and to see whether those abuses could be
removed. In his opinion the magistracy of England were
much to blame. He believed they had acted from the
best of motives, but they had acted injudiciously in making
no distinction between the wants of honest industry and
the demands of indolence and vice. The independent
habits of the English peasant had been thus destroyed,
and temptation held out to idleness and immorality,—
(Hear.) In observing upon the various parts of the Bill he
should first advert to the change about to be made in the
bastardy laws. He could not agree with the Noble Baron
behind him that this provision was likely to lead to the
injury which the Noble Baron anticipated. So far from it,
he considered that it would be extremely beneficial ; for the
law, as it at present stood, held out a direct premium to
vice. With respect to the question of settlement, he thought
that the present measure, which went to destroy all settle-
ment by hiring and service, would be beneficial, because it
would open the market to the honest labourer, and not con-
fine him to his own parish. But at the same time he must
observe that such a provision, to be effectual, must be ac-
companied by a modified system of poor laws for Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.). There was one part of the Bill which he
thought required alteration, and that related to house-
holders renting houses at 101. a year. He was afraid, as
the Bill had come up from the House of Commons, that
the clause would be injurious, and would lead to the same,
and perhaps more litigation, than existed at present. It
was also deficient as regarded hiring and service, because it
would tend to make every proprietor of land cautious
how he admitted persons on his estate to form a settle-
ment. For his part, he did not see any serious objection
to make the rental not 101., but even 151. or 201. The poor
had been so injured by the enclosing of commons, that some
alteration of this kind was absolutely necessary. He cor-
dially approved of the alterations which had been made in the
Bill, by which paupers could be relieved out of the parish
workhouses. With respect to the appointment of the Com-
missioners, he allowed that they ought to be looked to with
some degree of jealousy. He admitted that the Bill would
confer on them a new and unconstitutional power; but at the
same time he must look at the situation of the country, and
the extraordinary necessity there was for adopting some mea-
sure which could remedy the existing evils. The poor laws,
which were originally intended as a blessing, had become a
curse, not only to the country, but to the poor themselves.--
( Hear.) He had some experience of their effects as a Ma-
gistrate, and he saw and felt, as an acting Magistrate in three
different counties, the impossibility of correcting the evils
without something like a uniform system—(Hear)---and he
maintained, that unless such a system was adopted, no change
they could make would be effectual or beneficial. He sup-
ported the second reading of the Bill from the most con-
, scientious motives, and because he was thoroughly convinced
that it would be of great benefit to the poor themselves.
The Earl of ELDON thought the second reading of the
Bill ought not to be urged that night. When they considered
that so many Clergymen and so many Magistrates were divided
as to the best mode of correcting the evils of the Poor Law
system, and when they considered the great difficulty of the
question, he was convinced they would see that it would be
impossible to do justice to the measure at that period of the
Session. That was his sincere opinion. Such a Bill ought
not to be passed but after great deliberation.—( Hear.)
Lord A L VANLE Y said he was opposed to the measure,
and thought that the improved system which had been adopted
in many parishes would do all that was required. He objected
to the principle of the Bill. It gave to a number of persons
despotic powers, which would, more than any other measure,
interfere with the domestic habits and comforts of the people
of every hamlet and village. In order to prove that the
system might be improved without such extraordinary powers,
he would refer their Lordships to a few parishes where the
most beneficial results had been obtained by judicious manage-
ment. He would refer particularly to the parish of Bingham,
where the rates in 1817 were 1,206/., and in 1832 they were
reduced to 449/., by a system somewhat like that which the
Bill sanctioned. It was a singular fact, too, that while the
rates had diminished, the population had increased to a
considerable extent. The Noble Baron then gave a similar
statement with regard to two other parishes, and added,
that he regretted the introduction of such a measure,
because it would interfere with the natural industry
of the country-_a country, too, which had gone on increasing
by means of individual enterprise, without Boards or Commis-
sioners. How did it happen that a country like England, of
so small extent, and with so few advantages, could have been
raised to such a degree of prosperity but °by this system of in-
dividual enterprise, which was in direct opposition to the system
proposed by the Bill. To be convinced of this, they had only
to look at the flourishing colonies belonging to Great Britain,
greater than the whole Ron:An empire ; they had only to look

at the roads, the canals, and any species of commercial com-
munication and enterprise, which had all been effected without
any Central Board, or any shilling system like that proposed
by the Poor Laws' Bill. In conclusion, he would only say
that it would be much better to postpone a Bill of such im-
portance to the opening of a now session.
The Earl of R ADNOR agreed entirely in the eulogium
which the Noble Baron had pronounced on the self-governing
system of the country. But the Noble Baron had neglected to
state that self-government sometimes became self-misgovern-
ment.—( Hear.) Had he taken that into consideration, he would
not have been so opposes to a Central Board, calculated to
check such self-misgovernment • and the more so when he re-
collected that this Board was limited to five years. Ile was
surprised that the Noble Baron did not see that one part of his
speech answered the other. The Noble Baron had stated that
the new practice had been so beneficial in some parishes as to
reduce the rates more than one half. But if the plan were so
good ani beneficial, how did it happen that it was not extended
to other parishes ? In order to attain such a result, what must
parishes do ? They must meet ; they must have a head--or
President ; and, more than that, they must have great bold-
ness and great courage to enable them to carry it into effect
without the sanction of an Act of Parliament. If there were
a Mr. Baker in every parish, the Central Board would not be
wanted to lay down rules ; but, unfortunately, that was not the
case, and Parliament therefore was bound to interfere. The
Noble Baron had misunderstood some of the most important
parts of the Bill, and more particularly that clause which re-
lated to the powers of the Commissioners. The Commissioners
could not by this Bill repeal any laws ; and if the Noble Ba-
ron looked at the Bill more carefully, he would see that they
were to act according to the existing laws. —( Hear, hear.)
They could not supersede the laws ; and no Noble Lord, not
even the Noble Baron himself, could deny that the administra-
tion of the Poor Laws was grievously bad. Some Noble Lords
had objected to the Bill because it was founded on theory, but
they ought to recollect that all great changes are founded, more
or less, on theoretical principles, and might be described as
theoretical till their effects were known. The Noble Lord
said put off the Bill till next session, and give us time to go
down to the country and ascertain how the system worked.
But what had the Noble Lords been doing for the last twenty
years? Had they not time to inquire before now ? and did
they not see that the grievances of the poor laws were every
day becoming more intolerable?—( Hear.) He was most
friendly to the principle of the Bill. He knew that it would
give great power to the commissioners, but that power would
be exerted for the welfare of the people. Nothing could be
so absurd as to say that it would reduce the people to a state
of slavery. How could it have such an effect more than the
present system ? A great clamour had been raised, too, about
the power to be given to the Commissioners in regulating
workhouses, but in what did that differ from the present
system ? Why, in this, that men of general education and
sound principles (as he presumed the Commissioners would
be) would have the making of the regulations, and not such
persons, ignorant illiterate men, as many of the present over-
seers are—persons, he must say, who, not from any fault of
theirs, were totally incapable of laying down general rules.—
( Hear, hear.) The present system formed an opening to all
sorts of partiality, which would be effectually done away with
by a Central Board.—( Hear.) The Noble Baron said the
Commission would have the power of raising the rates. No
such thing. All the power they had on that head was to
raise 50/. in any particular parish for the repair of a work-
house. It was essential to the welfare of the country that the
Bill should be passed without delay, though not without deli-
berate consideration. He was convinced that those persons
for whom it was intended would in the end be the most bene-
fitted by it.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he would vote for the
second reading of this Bill, and shortly state his reasons. If
it were proper to pass the Bill at all, it was proper to do so
now. They had yet sufficient time for the mature considera-
tion of all the stages of the Bill, and in his opinion it ought
to be passed without loss of time.—( Hear.) He should,
therefore, vote against the motion for postponement. Ile
agreed entirely with the Noble Earl and the Noble Baron, as
to the necessity of the measure. The existing grievances of
the Poor Laws were such that no man could deny them, and
though he did not agree with the Noble and Learned Lord as
to his construction of the 43d Eliz., he thought any one would
agree with him in the statement that, in every one of the
12,000 parishes of England, abuses had crept in, and
without Parliamentary interference, it would be impossible
to correct them.—( Hear, hear.) In order to establish a
uniform system, it would be necessary t•i+ appoint some autho-
rity, some Board, which might control the different guardians
of the poor, and place all the parishes of the country on a
similar footing. His Noble Friend (Lord Wynford) had ob-
jected to the Bill ; but if he had attended to Parliamentary
business as much as some other Noble Lords, he would have
learned that every Administration who had undertaken the
Government of the country Had in vain attempted to devise a
system of improved Poor Laws, and none had fairly grappled
with it but the Noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey), to whom he
returned thanks.—( Cheers.) He admitted the powers to be
intrusted to the commissioners were great, but the commis-
sioners would necessarily be under the control of Parliament
at all times, and might be called to account, both by the Go-
vernment and the Legislature, for the course they might be
pursuing. He would recommend to the Noble Lords opposite
that the clause respecting allowance should be struck out, as
lie considered it gave the commissioners too much power. With
respect to other parts of the Bill, he was willing that it should
be read a second time, in order that they might have an oppor-
tunity of making alterations that should appear advisable in
committee.

Lord SE GR AVE said, that as the Noble Lord opposite had
mentioned a parish in Gloucestershire, and the name of a gen-
tleman connected with it, he merely rose to state that he was
intimately acquainted with the gentleman mentioned, who was
a most useful magistrate, and deserving of all the praise that
had been bestowed upon him. But he wished to prevent any
misapprehension. What that gentleman (Mr. Baker) had done
had not been done by either his personal or local influence, for
he did not reside in the parish of Ealing, nor did he act as a
magistrate there.
Lord ST 0 URTON would support the second reading of
this Bill. He was exceedingly anxious, at the same time, that
something should be done to relieve the condition and raise the
wages of the Irish labourer, without doing which it would be
almost useless to legislate for the English poor.
Viscount MELBOURNE said that though he could not
expect to be able to add anything to what had been said by the
Noble and Learned Lord who introduced this measure, yet
the measure was of such paramount importance that he did
not think he would be discharging his duty if he did not make
some few observations upon it. This Bill was of the deepest
importance to the whole community, and to every part of the
country. It was of the deepest importance to England, bur-
dened as she was by an immense load of taxation, arising from
the Poor Laws—it was of the deepest importance to Scotland,
in order that she might be induced to persevere in, and ad-
here to her more prudent and cautious system of Poor Law s
--and it was of the deepest importance to Ireland, in order that
it might teach those who were urging for the adoption of some
measure of Poor Laws for that country to consider under what
form a system of Poor Laws could be best applied. This wag
a matter of the most serious consideration, and he trusted it
would be considered with that calmness, patience, and care,
which its great and paramount importance deserved.--( Hear,
hear.) He did not agree with those who wished, on account
of the lateness of the year, to put off the consideration of this
Bill. Such a proceeding was very well for those who altoge-
ther disapproved of the Bill, but for those who approved of it
in part, who saw the evils of the present system, and wished
to apply a remedy, let their Lordships consider whether
such a course was not the greatest absurdity.—(Hear,
hear.) He had heard, with great pleasure, the speech of
the Noble Lord ( Alvanley, we believe) upon the cross
benches, but was very sorry that he could not, upon
the present occasion, more completely agree with him. Know-
ing the power of that Noble Lord's mind, he was rather sur-
prised that he should have been misled upon the present occa-
sion. Nothing struck him (Lord Melbourne) so much as the
great absurdity which existed in this country of leaving mea-
sures of such vast importance, which pressed so hard upon the
financial resources of the country, and the effects of which
were so deeply and universally felt, under a temporary local
Government. The poor rates were the largest direct tax, they
were in amount as much as any two taxes together, and ex-
ceeded the assessed taxes and the land tax together by not less
than 1,300,0001. There were even many individual parishes
where it quadrupled them. Was not this an evil ? But there
was more ; it was subject to the great objection made to the
income tax, that it was a growing tax, by degrees growing to
confiscation, as the exigencies of the time might demand ; it
was led on, little by little, till the whole property of the coun-
try would be confiscated. Was not that the nature of this
tax ? was it not growing every year, and in a different
manner ? The income tax could not be imposed without
the consent of Parliament ; but this tax stole on silently
and secretly, and they knew not what it amounted to. It
was like the growth of the upas tree, small at first, and
hardly perceptible, till it had struck its roots into the
earth, and grown to a magnitude that should spread
ruin and desolation round it, destroying every thing that grew
beneath its pestiferous shade. But let them look at the evils
of the poor laws in another point of view :—the effect which
they had upon the morals of the people were infinitely greater,
and required infinitely more careful examination. For this
reason, he entirely concurred in the propriety of establishing
a Central Board. It was impossible to settle the matter effec-
tually in any other manner. For these reasons, undoubtedly,
it was necessary that the Board should be armed with power
sufficient for the occasion, and for the duties which they should
have to perform. With respect to the suggestions applying to
particular provisions, the proper time to consider them was in
Committee, for if he rightly collected the sense of the House,
the Bill would proceed to a second reading.—(Hear, hear. )
It was unnecessary for him to do more than to express his en-
tire concurrence in the second reading of this Bill, and to con-
gratulate the country upon the determination of the House.—
( Cheers. )
The Marquis of BUTE said that he -would vote for the
second reading of the Bill, which he would not do if he could
imagine that it would in the slightest degree injure the con-
dition of the labourer, or lower the respectability of the Ma-
gistracy. He thought the Bill would be highly advantageous
to all classes.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he would vote for
the amendment. He entirely concurred in the opinion ex-
pressed by a Magistrate of the county of Durham (Mr. Cart-
wright) in a letter expressed to him (the Marquis of London-
derry), that "if that House passed this Bill the aristocracy
would be lost, and would deserve to be lost."
The Duke of CLEVELAND said that this might be the
opinion of the magistrate referred to ; but it would be a mis-
take to suppose that it conveyed the sentiments of the magis-
tracy of Durham.
Earl MANVERS said he would support the second reading
of the. Bill.

The Duke of RICHMOND said that he would vote for
the second reading of the Bill, as he thought it would ea:auti,
the farmer to employ the labourer with more advantage toe
.oto
parties. During the last Session he had introduced a 8111111114
that House for the temporary employment of labour ;
though it passed this House, he deeply regretted to say that I
was lost in the other House of Parliament. He knevt very
well the disadvantages of the present system of Poor Lawsto;
it tended to demoralize the labourer, whose only object Wag"
get as much from the parish as he possibly could. To reilleu;,'
this he saw no better measure than the present Bill. He ktt
no better, and he would, therefore, vote for it. But be.,315
own that he still looked at the Bill with considerable Star:
and he viewed the power given to the Commissioners 01_
jealousy and suspicion. He thought that the Secretarit
of State for the Home Department would have a 11101
responsible situation in taking care that those gene.,4
regulations were not acted upon injuriously--he. if
take care that every thing was done gradually. e,
it were put under the administration of young and /rola
rienced men, not practiCally acquainted with the details, ant
situation of those parishes where there might be no re° one
gentry, and the overseers were ignorant men, if such Pets
attempted to carry those regulations into effect in such 130
rishes, it would excite a rebellion worse than in the year 1 be
—( So we understood the Noble Duke). Believing thivsv_a
could not look at this Bill without considerable anxiety; o,
his great object in rising was to impress this particularly Ito
his Noble Friend the late Secretary of State for the 11; to
Department, with whom he would be perfectly satisfieuthe
leave this control ; but they could not know who would be, to
future Secretaries for that Department. He would
le
see a clause introduced into this Bill upon the principle °'ig,
Labour Rate Act—( Hear, hear)—authorizing the Coul`;os
sioners to give permission to the rate-payers, where there sa
a considerable majority, to establish this Act. The Prete,
system of allowance would be a hardship to many parh--,ditil
Unless wages were considerably raised, how could a man cb
his wife and large family subsist upon the rate of wagFsv&o.
might suffice for a single man ? It was possible that 10 Doi,
mittee he would propose a clause upon this part of the
and
but, as he had said before, he would not object to the sec
reading. lear
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that, after the the
and luminous statement of the Noble and Learned Lord 013 ~
Woolsack, it would be wholly unnecessary for him to oce,`li.,
much of their Lordships' time, or to enter into any general,og
guments in support of this Bill. He could state that ItOtlll,loo
was farther from the intention of Government than to burflos
or force the changes in the present system, without ti
to discuss not only the whole Bill in its principle, but-10 0,
most minute details. He would also add that it was the
if
tention of Government that the remedy should be applied
each case with attention to its particular circumstances; 'wie.
necessary, with the most deliberate consideration. lqe the
cerely hoped that, by means of this Bill, they would se's his
restoration of those principles of industry and virtue wail op
former times had distinguished this country amongst all
tions, and that those principles would be perpetuated. es
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in reply, commoll'iey)
the speech of his Noble and esteemed Friend (Lord Alvse
which, however, whilst he was happy to bear testimony !got
talent which it displayed, applied in favour of the 10,e:ece
though his Noble Friend was opposed to it. With ret!::,it
to the powers which were to be given to the central I3o*-4_,
would of course be indispensably necessary to keep a por-iate
control on their proceedings. His Noble Friend, the felt
Postmaster-General, had expressed the jealousy which be $o
in vesting any set of men with such extensive powera.,,sbe
did he. But as to the poor laws, what had they d0ne,1,,,' of,
last fifty years ? Why they had interfered in the an..fse'
ever man, rich and poor. Nature and the ordinary COw-lor
affairs said that a man should be paid according to his eelPthe
ment, but the poor laws ordered you to employ a man -Ittbe bit
you wanted him or not 1 They required this, not becall
labour was worth os. to you, but because the man wants„.oo
to support his children. What he wished to impressasa
their Lordships was that, looking to the attempts wilieleest,
been made by successive Governments, they should, at oet
receive this measure as the basis of an improvement of toe
The Duke of WELLINGTON made some obsery-ot
which was not audible in the gallery, when the Hou'se
cleared for a division—
For the original motion
For the amendment
Majority in favour of the second reading:7-63 .

The Bill was theri read a second time, but we did not
any day named for the Committee upon it.'
Several Bills were then advanced a stage, and their 11,1,y)'
ships adjourned at Half-past Twelve till to-morrow (this,

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 21. ate
The SPEAKER resumed the chair at 25 minutes Pas
o'clock.

WEXFORD ELECTION. .600
The SPEAKER announced that he had received a Peti
from Wexford, complaining of an undue return.
„Ascii°
On the motion of Mr. RUTH VEN, the Port Cro--
Harbour Bill was read a third time and passed. fthe
Lord HOWICK brought up the annual report °
Inland Navigation in Ireland. The Noble Lord then tti"ep
for copies of any correspondence that had taken place Ir,t°lderf
the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Commissi°-

of Emigration.
OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH. ,010
Mr. POULTER gave notice that, next Session, I.le:th./
bring in a Bill for the better observance of the Saw-
(Hear, and much laughter.)
The LORD ADVOCATE moved the second reale
the amendments to the Roman Catholic (Scotland).
riages Bill.
Mr. GO ULBURN presented various petitions fro%q by
cashire, Devonshire, and Kent, in support of the Est'
Chuff ch.
MR. D. W. HARVEY'S CASE. 000
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the Inns of Court C°.."
tee have leave to report from time to time. The flollooiA,
and Learned Member then brought up a Report, of t)
he handed to the clerk, who announced it as the report btedt
Committee upon Church patronage in Scotland.—(Lallind
The Hon. Member finding his mistake, returned and "'-
up a report from the Committee on the Inns of Court. 12,10
Mr. WYNN said that it was very desirable that the:
V
Hon. the Secretary at War should be in his place pre
the report being read. Real
Lord ALTHORP said that he had not seen the
Hon. Gentleman that day (as we understood him.)
The CLERK then proceeded to read the evidence
Western, which the Committee deemed it their `1"
bring at once to the knowledge of the House.soitst:i
substance of the evidence was, that Lord Western had „
to Mr. Ellice, as being connected with the TreasurYs*-107
down a sum of money (5001.) to insure the return of <01:
candidate for Colchester. Lord Western stated that.ftPibe:
ject was to insure the return of Mr. Mayhew. Mr. I",sior
and Mr. Harvey stood upon the same interest, but mere 01
violently hostile to each other. They were both reforo
didates. A

The evidence went on thus :—To Lord Western,', ss,fs°
Did you not write to Mr. Ellice, calling upon Inino 0,1
officer of the Treasury to send down a sum of money to Of
on Mr. Harvey's election at Colchester ?—No. I 0/11 p
sum of money for the purpose of Mr. Mayhew's electiourt pfa
Was not the letter written to obtain money to supP°o fro;
Harvey and Mr. Mayhew jointly ?—lt was the fartb°,4
my thought to do it. I wrote for the money to supP°'
Mayhew.
Your belief strongly sustains that distinction ?—lt
In point of fact, was any sum of money sent from the
sury to Colchester?—Yes.
Who were the parties that shared the money so se- itti
cannot state ; but I understood from yourself that thereig frA
dispute about it—a litigious dispute. My recollection of
it was sent for Mr. Mayhew, who had stood three c°
within a Short time.
How much was the money 2-1 think 500/.
Did Mr. Mayhew and Mr. Harvey stand upon the sw:0"
rest ?—Yes, I believe they did; but they were most '
.4)
hostile to each other, as I understood.—(Laughter.) r
teh
Did you know that Mr. George Saville, of Colches_,,
at that time, the treasurer of a common fund to retlo-0
Mayew and Mr. Harvey ?—I don't know that. or*
asking me to matters that are irrelevant. My desire
the money should be deposited in Mr. George Savill°;, '
Did he receive the money, and, in point of fact'
any part of it to the support of Mr. Harvey's intetv-
believe so. 017
By Mr. HARVEY—WiII it appear that a sum °
was obtained in aid of my election at Colchester Voitu
you that I did not get it for your support, but for that
iv
Mayhew. to
You are understood to say that when you wrotneold)
Treasury, to counsel a sum of money being sent to uel,tit'l
ter, it was a distinct application on behalf of Mr. MaP:01;
to the exclusion of Mr. Harvey ?—Not to his exclusitiot
my application was for Mr. Mayhew. I did not saY
money was to be sent to the exclusion of Mr. Hamel'
Mr. Mayew's account. tint°ll
Did you exert yourself on public and political groaiibeie
secure the return of Mr. Harvey, as well as of Mr. '7Ol
No. Mr. Mayhew's return was in danger, but the
Harvey was thought to be secure.
But he was not returned ?—Yes, he was. Tres°
And for that purpose the 5001. was sent from the

—Yes.
As soon as the reading of the Report was coneluclte,
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that it do lie on the taii.day
Lord ALTHORP said that he for one was totallljloo-
of the transaction to which the Report referred,' an•fe°
lieved that his Right Hon. Friend would be able to 61 "I
tisfactory explanation regarding it. aai
Mr. TENNYSON observed, that he had CO ob.
with the Secretary at War, in order to learn from 111140,°
he wished to attend the Committee when the bit ,4
brought forward ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman 081,
that he preferred having the matter brought before sfoi
House, and that he trusted he should be able to gips visre
satisfactory explanation of it. Perhaps he was not
the Ret on the transaction would be made so o°4l
Mr. WYNN said that the natural and obvioultict it ed,
to refer the Report to a committee of privileges "Geptleor,
be fair in the first instance to give the Right go..
~a the
an opportunity of explanation. No prejudice w°l4•Geoutitlit/
created in the public mind. After the Right Hen' a tio
should have come into his place, it might be mold aliof
Report be referred to a committee of privileges, L'-tlie ,5,91
motion he would have an opportunity of addresslitiOL
without unnecessary delay. The charge was cegeta'
rious one, affecting the character of an in eoi,,rd
the privileges of that House in generalris
Mr. O'CONNELL suggested that the m°llt°3
course might be for him to give notice that to-trior