The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-01 00:00:00

been given by the Right, Hon. the President of the Board of
Trade, upon the motion of the Hon. Member for Harwich, a
few nights since, rendered it almost unnecessary for him to
bring it forward, unless as a matter of form. Those explana-
tions of the Right Hon. Gentleman had totally altered the
aspect of the case, and therefore relieved him ( Co-
lonel Evans) from the necessity of taking any serious
steps in it.—( Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Gallant
member here alluded to the large tract of territory comprising
a population of 10 or 12 millions, which he understood it was
the intention of the Executive Government of India to
take into its own hands, and which he trusted would
• not be allowed without proper investigation.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member concluded by moving his resolution " That
' in the opinion of this House, the British Government is not
bound to interfere, and ought to be extremely cautious in
interfering for the recovery of loans from native states in
India, unless such loans were contracted with its previous
knowledge and concurrence ; and unless the guarantee of the
British resident was given upon the face of the bond, and sig-
nified by the resident in the despatch written at the time to
his own Government, as approved as well by that Govern-
ment as by the native princes contracting the loan."
The resolution, as we understood, was postponed till after the
order of the day should have been disposed of.
WILFUL BURNING BILL.
On the order of the day being read for the House to resolve
itself into Committee upon this Bill,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that this Bill
effected a most important alteration of the law upon this sub-
ject. There were a great variety of shades in this Bill, which
required the most profound consideration. He was sure that
at that late period of the Session it would be quite hopeless to
enter upon the discussion of this bill, which even if it passed
this House, could not be expected to pass the other House.
Mr. AGLIONBY said that the reasons stated by the Hon.
and Learned Member were well worthy the consideration of
the House. He would not allow his own individual
feelings upon this subject to interfere with the public
business.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time he wished
the House to recollect that there was an exceedingly
strong feeling amongst the public with respect to this
Bill ; and as he did not understand the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber to express any decided opinion against the Bill, he (Mr. A.)
hoped that during the recess it would be taken into the con-
sideration of Government. He hoped he would not be considered
as flinching from his duty in acceding to the proposal to with-
draw this Bill for the present.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped
also that it would be recollected that this Bill, in principle,
had received the assent of the House of Commons, and he
hoped that early next session a Bill similar to the present
would be introduced.
The Bill was accordingly withdrawn.
The Roman Catholic Marriages Bill, and the Norfolk
Island Bill, were severally postponed till to-morrow.
The Militia Ballot Suspension Bill, the Arms Importation
(Ireland) Bill, and the Almanacks and Stamps Repeal Bill,
were read a second time.
CHURCH (IRISH) TEMPORALITIES BILL.
Mr.' LITTLETON said, that in consequence of a vote
last night it had been found necessary to make some slight
alterations in some of the clauses of this Bill, and therefore it
would now have to be recommitted.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
The clauses from 1 to 21 were gone through after consider-
able conversation, when the House resumed, and the Chairman
reported progress, and asked leave to sit again to-morrow.
TITHES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the question being put that the House should resolve
itself into a Committee on the Tithes (Ireland) Bill.
Colonel DAVIES rose to move a resolution to the effect
that it was inexpedient to make any payment out of the Con-
solidated Fund in order to carry into effect the provisions of
the Irish Tithe Bill. He admitted that through the proceed-
ings of last night he must be deprived of much support that
he could otherwise have expected, yet, he said, the question
was of so much importance that he felt it his duty to submit
his Resolution. He contended that, unless some such measure
was adopted, the charge on the Consolidated Fund would be
130,0001., or 140,0001., which would never be repaid, and con-
cluded by moving his Resolution,
Lord ALTHORP opposed the amendment. If he were
disposed to criticise, he might say that the-question had already
been debated. If the Resolution were adopted there was at
once an end to the Tithe Bill. He denied that the money would
not be repaid ; but even if it were not repaid, the sacrifice
would be well made if it assisted in giving peace to Ireland.
Mr. G ILL ON supported the amendment.
Mr. SHAW said that, as an Irish Member, he would be
practising a delusion on the English people, if he did not
protest against a loan being granted from the Consolidated
Fund as a loan, when he well knew that it never would, and
never could be repaid. If the principle which his Majesty's
Government seemed inclined to adopt was once established,
all law in Ireland, as far as regarded the payment of tithe,
relit,' and taxes, would be thrown over, and the people of
England would have to bear the expense.
Mr. SHE IL recommended the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, if he was really anxious to save the Consolidated Fund,
to propose a further reduction in the Irish Church Establish=
ment. If he did so, he (Mr. Sheil) would support him. Ten
Bishops were too many for Ireland, and if their number was
reduced, and if the income of the Primate of Ireland, which
was at present 16,0001., was reduced, there would he a sum
in the Perpetuity Fund more than enough to remove the neces-
sity of now applying to the Consolidated Fund for aslistance.
Mr. RICHARDS was obliged to the declaration of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary, for a strong argu-
ment in favour of the view he took of the present situation of
Ireland. It was evident, if they went on legislating by piece-
ineal upon the question of tithe, the Irish people never would
be content until They succeeded in totally overthrowing the
Church Establishment. He implored, therefore, the Govern-
ment at once to settle the question, and not endanger the per-
manence of the Church. He was willing to go as far as to
fix a-settled income for the working clergy, and then apply the
Church revenue to the purposes of the State; but whatever
was to be done ought to be done immediately, for, if it was
postponed from session to session, there would in the end be
nothing' to transfer to the public purse.
Mr. LEFR 0 Y said that the Hon. Member had only told
the House what was already known perfectly well, that he was
quite unacquainted with the state of Ireland. The effect of
this measure would only be to increase agitation in Ireland, and
to impress upon that agitation very aggravated features of mis-
chief. Two-fifths of the tithes were already cancelled, and the
Hon. Member had told the House that there must be an appro-
priation of the remaining fifth. Twelve Bishops had already
been sacrificed, and now there was a call for further sacrifices.
He denied the assertion that the Lord Primate of Ireland had
an income of 16,0001. a year ; his income was only 10,0001. a
year, and the Noble and Venerable Prelate had expended upon
improvements of his diocese a sum not less than 30,000/
( Hear.) He asked would the House respond to the calls of
the Hon. Member to reduce the Primate's income ? The
landlords of Ireland had been relieved from vestry cess last year
to the extent of 40,0001., and now the House was told that
the cess fund was to be reimbursed from the outgoings of the
Ecclesiastical Commission. He had had accounts from Ire-
land of the actual dilapidation of churches in that country ; and
in the case of one church, St. George's, in Dublin, although
the building was in such a state that the parishioners could not
attend divine service, the Commissioners were actually with-
out funds to put the building in a condition of repair. Not-
withstanding that fact the House was to be told that the Com-
missioners would have funds to reimburse the total of the cess
fund. If tithe property had been levied under the Act of the
last session, as it might have been, there would have been funds
for answering all the purposes of the Irish Church. The prin-
ciples of property had been violated, and agitation had had its
reward.—( Hear, hear.) He feared that it was not possible to
restore the Irish Church to the condition in which it had stood.
He called upon Hon. Members to resist the progress of the
Bill, for it was one of the most mischievous measures that
had ever been introduced. The Bill would enable landlords
to get additional rent, but it would be of no benefit to the pea-
santry.
Mr. WARD said that the only question before the House
was whether it would unsay and undo all that it had said and
done throughout the Session. The question had already been
discussed and settled twice this Session, and it would be re-
gularly before the House in the ensuing Session.
Mr. FINCH opposed the Bill, and read numerous extracts
from private correspondence in order to show the violence of
Catholics towards all who read the Bible.--(The :Honourable
Member was continually interrupted by laughter and cries of
" Question, question.")
Mr. L'YNCH was surprised that the Hon. Member had
travelled so far from the question before the House.
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the original motion 7B
Fur the amendment
Majority —64
On our return to the gallery, we found the House in Com
mittee.

Mr. LITTLETON said, that if they then proceeded to
make the alterations which were necessary to carry out the
principle of the amendment adopted on the preceding night,
they must begin with them in the middle of the Bill. He,
therefore, proposed that they should commence the Bill de novo.
After a few words from Mr. SHE IL,
Mr. BERNAL left the Chair, and the House resumed.
The report was then brought up, and it was agreed that the
Bill should be re-committed.

The House having gone into Committee again, the first
clause was put. _

Lord A fTHOR P stated, that in consequence of the amend-
ment which was agreed to on the preceding night, he had to
propose that the redemption of the tithes should be completed
in payments of five different instalments, to commence in
1835—( Hear, hear)--and the deduction of 40 per cent. to be
allowed on those payments.
Mr. S HEIL said a concession had been made by the Go-
vernment, for which he and those Hon. Members who acted
with him were truly grateful. He rose for the purpose of in-
quiring whether, in those cases where the clergy of some
parishes had not as yet applied for relief out of the one mil-
lion, the grants to be made for the future would be subject to
the deduction of 40 per cent. ?
Mr. LITTLETON said it was proposed to re-open the
fund, for the purpose of enabling parties, who had not hitherto
applied for relief, to make their application on the same terms
as heretofore.
Mr. LEFROY said that if they were to attempt to recover
the 600,000/. from the landlords, the country would be in as
great a state of agitation as it had been in any of the last five
years.
Lord ALT HOR P said that after the great reduction which
had been made, he did not think the landlords had any reason
to complain.
The clause was then agreed to, as was the 2d clause.
On its being proposed to strike out clauses 3 and 4,
Mr. ORRISTMAS complained of the course which Go.
vernment was-pursuing, in so often changing their minds with ":