The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-26 00:00:00

Noble Lord WhO had been capricious, fur he had riot
fulfiled his promisee. The Noele Lord had given the
Irish people Arms Acts end Coercion Acts; and he (Mr.
Leas lase) hal the authority c f Mr. Berwick, a revising. •
barrister in the south of Ili I Ind, for stating that the
Franchise Act passed for Ireland would, so far from eot
or-crating beneficially, be a disfranchising Act with re- e-se
geed to a large portion of that country. Then in the
terrible famine with which Ireland had been visited,
and which was met by the people with a pa•
cleric° which did them credit and honour, the ada
Government had not taken those measures which .
eg
they were bound to take, and he contended that ,
they were responsible fur every life lost by that fa- ewes
mine. And now, to crown all, the Noble Lord proposed 41
a penal law directed against the Irish Catholic clergy, "tta
who had bsbaved in the most exemplary manner during ."11''
the famine, for he could say, from his own experience,
that but for their exertions there would have been blood- eaiti
shed from the north to the south of Ireland. He regreted' 1,0,
that in the course of this debate the Hon. Member for ~di
Surrey (Mr. Henry Drummond) had used languago f.rf)
which—although he (Mr. Lawless) was a Protestant— see
had excited in his mind a feelirg of horror and disgust. azs
The Speaker bad ruled that the Hon. Gentleman Ives in e•dil
in order in using such language, but he (Mr. Lawli se) es:o
could only say that in no other Assembly in the world reea.
would any one have been allowed to use such a string of eiftie;
obscene words, A meeting had been held on the subject
of that language at Kingsiown, and resolutions had been to
s
adopted expressing surprise thet no notice had been taken
l
in that House of the disgraceful language used within it. aieaini
He believed there was not a single Member of that House, eye
whether Catholic or Protestant, who did not regard that
language as most shameful, and he was sorry to see that, .101.
in the resolutions of the meeting to which he bad referred, erg,'
the Noble Lord at the bead of the Government was eac!-!.
coupled with the lion. Member for West Surrey.-,
This ho supposed had arisen from some mistake; for the-.'bn:
Noble Lord had never used such language as that in-
r
lc
dulged in by the Hon. Member for Surrey. Indeed, ,g,,
the wily fault he had to find with the Noble Lord was
that he had not sufficiently condemned the language of
that Hon. M tuber. Nothing but his advanced age (as
we understood) prevented that Hen. Gentleman from
being severely dealt with, and he (Mr. H. Drummond)
had better not trust himself in Ireland, or he might.
perhaps, meet with the same sort of treatment that bad
been experienced by General Haynau in this country.
He could assure the House that it there was one mea-
sure which was more calculated than another to rouse
the indignant feelings of the people of Ireland, it was all
insult to their clergy. There was no excuse whatever
for extending this Bill to Ireland, where no aggressiohu
had been committed, and where no pretext for any such
legislation existed. The way in which the Noble Lord
brought forward this Bill was worthy of the most petti-
fogging attorney. The Noble Lord wrote his notorious
letter, containing allusion to "mummeries," and other
language which gave very just offence to their Ca-
r eta,
tholic fellow-subjects; and then, in excuse for using a.a
such language, the Noble Lord said that it was sales,
directed, not against Roman Catholics, but against
Puseyites. Why, then, was Parliament called upon to areess,
legislate against Catholics, and not against Pusey
(Cheers.) He was glad to say that many of the Pro-
testant clergy regretted the system of legislation now
attempted against the Roman Catbolics of this couutry.
Mr. Lawless then read some passages from a letter
written by a Protestant clergymaa to a Member of that
House, xpressiog the opinion that it was not the pro-
ites?--
vince of the Queen to confer spiritual rights. The ,
writer observed that because the temporal barony which As es
the Queen added to the spiritual office was the maat •
seen and regarded, the mistake had been made of calling ,A
the names " bishop" and " archbishop" " titles," when
they really were only ecclesiastical designations of fora
sons who sustained a spiritual office in an episcopal
church, just as the name " ministers" was the name
given to persons who held a spiritual office in Methodist
or Presbyterian churches. The writer therefore in'
ferred that there was no ground for any measure in ra"
gard to what had been improperly termed " the es'
sumption of ecclesiastical titles." Such was th ones"
taken by a Protestant clergyman; would to " goo
he was a bishop !—(A laugh.) The argument of the
Solicitor-General, comparing our present relations with
Rome to those of Roman Catholic times in England,
was absurd ; in Catholic countries bishops were not
appointed by the Pope without the consent of the sove-
reign, but now we did not acknowledge the Pope.
With regard to the public feeling upon the subject, the,
papers, particularly the Times, had made the Most of
the question, and done all they could to excite public
spirit; in that day's Times there were five letters with
regard to Miss Talbot's case—(" Hear, hear," And
laugh)—he regarded this as showing the sort of false
impetus given to the subject in order to back up th°,,
Noble Lord in passing this measure.—(" Hear, bear ;
"Ohl") It was painful to him (Mr. Lawless) to con-
trast the language used by bishops of his own church
with the temperate address of the Roman Catholic
Bishops of Ireland to their flocks upon the subject of
this measure. (The Hon. Member read several extracts
from this address.) Surely the proceeding now in ques-
tion had arisen as much from ignorance as from a wish to
offend. It was not impossible that the Pope, especially
in his present weak state, should wish to insult and ex-
asperate a country like this. What had occurred wag
very much to be attributed to the shameful state of things,
as between the Pope and her Majesty, with regard to
temporal subjects. With 7,000,000 of Roman Catholics
in Ireland, there should be a proper understanding with
the head of their church. This could not have arisen
if there had been a concordat with Rome. But what
bad we? Why, a titled spy; for the Noble Lord who
went to Rome was without any proper credentials, and
was desired to melee out the most he could of matters at
Rome. Then fallowed a misunderstanding as to what
passed with the Pope; and some stated that what then
passed in regard to this measure had very much eecou-
raged the Pope in this " aggression."—(Hear, bear.)
With regard to the scandal which bad occurred in Ire-
land, in respect to " the godless colleges," as they saws
called, he (Mr. Lawless) begged to say that ho did his
best to further the national system there, and his father
before him endowed four or fir© of the national schools
—(Hear, hear)—he was very sorry that from some mis-
understanding between the Government and the heads of
the Catholic Church—it could be nothing more—these
colleges were not likely at present to be of the use he
had hoped they would be.—(Hear, hear.) Ho proceeded
then then to refer to the opinions given by Mr. O'Ha-
gan and by " Messrs. Bethel! and C 0.," and stated that
he believed the Bill went further than the Noble
Lord (Lord John nussell) wished or intended, though.
Heaven knew, he intended bad enough to the Catho-
lics.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member adverted again
to the case of Miss Talbot, expressing (as we under-
stood) his belief that she had had her own free will.
and that she had always intended to come up to London.
LA MEMBER—" For the Exhibition ?"—A laugh.]
Yes, but a pretty exhibition there had been.—(Hear,
hear.) She would be the only sufferer by the publicity.
She had:his sympathy.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to
the course taken en the part of the Government, he said
he could not believe the Noble Lord meant what he
wrote iu his letter; he had too high a respect for him--
fur his intellect.—(A laugh.) The Noble Lord took ad-
vantage of a cry. thinking he could streugthen himself
in a position in which he felt shaking.—(Eleer, hear)
Not having gone far enough to please the " Protestant
ascendancy boys"—(A laugh)—and having deserted the
real ‘• religious liberty men," and those who we
would
re for
total freedom of conscience-oi, ar, hear) —he
find that " between the two stools he was falling to the
ground"—(Laughter)—and would probably be over-
whelmed in the ruins of his own agitation.
Mr. MUNTZ thought it was a thousand pities our Govern-
ment connived at, or did not protest against, the occupation
of Rome by the la ench ; but for that the Pope would have
had something else to do than disturb the peace of this
country.—( Hear, hear.) This discussion had often turned
aside, as he thought, from the real question. He did not
support this Bill on the ground of the question between the
Roman Catholic religion and the Protestant, which was the
best religion. Each had a right to his oen religion, and
each
might think the other's ridiculous; it was the old story
Orthodoxy is my doxy, and heterodoxy is another man's
d°xY
• (A laugh.) The real question was, had the Pope
comnAtted an aggression against the Sovereign end the
people of this realm ?—(Loud cries of " Hear.") Now it was
extraordinary that almost every speaker had acknowledged
that this was a great aggression—(Hear, hear)—an impu-
dent and arrogant aggression—(., Hear, hear," and "No"); all
those speakers who were not under the influence of the rope.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham)
in his very able and clever speech acknowledged hear .at it
t
was an aggression, and an offensive one. - (Hear, h
Then, if so, upon what principle was Protestant England to
sit down and submit to an aggression from the Pope ?
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Were we come to such a
miserable, condition that we must submit to an aggression
from any quarter whatever, wi hoot meeting it? - (Cheers.)
On the introduction of this Bill he (Mr. Muntz) assignadaa
reason why lie voted for its introduction, viz., that e
he aUa_
never been able to discover that any country where th;
tholic religion had been supreme had enjoyed liberty 0
prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) He bad listened attentiveld oy to
this debate, and had not heard -n y- instance given; anuir
of his objects in rising was to ask if some gentleman
co
enlighten him upon that point. (Hear, hear.) Till then,
however, lie must act upon his own judgment.—
(I-I°'.'r'
hear.) The practical question, as the matter regarded the
prosperity and welfare of the country, was to be considered;o
and, not having the slightest wish to persecute or injure
any
man because he professed a different religion from his own'
1 (Mr. Muntz) was not going to encourage a religion which
was not found consistent with the prosperity or, then
inter
~!.!
of any country where it prevailed.—(llear, hearo-Latels:
did not admit the necessity of the appointment
f the Ca-
, bishops; he was inflamed that every advantage
Priding to
being so, why was he to consent to appointmen.s - east,
tholie religion was obtained under vicars-apostolieo,l and that
tweet' el e-
su touch dissatisfaction and unpleasant feeling
heal' exception
rent sects ?—(LI ear, hear.) With one very sme e •
wereallowed to
there was no state in Europe where bishops nt
of the Go-
be appointed by the Pope without the copse
vernment ; why was Protestant England
nt would
do what no other nation, Catholic or Protestant, would d do?
to ee called upon to
latelyG
—(Loud cries of "hear, hear.") But it h
Catholic
waga constitutiona
bjection. Could
o-
vernment to keep their people in a state in Austria. Well, it was the interest of the . Austrianon
any one show an instance where
Government maintained under tlic,u.
har die religion?b fit[l,Art
MEMBER Belgium ] Belginin 3:1E371 orn•—,l enty
hear ) How long had it e.xist. r L
d f fluent WHEW,
years. What was an existence,to.ear
the
y_?.tears? (Hear,
years.)
People said, oh, don,
That I °Pe; he
is.
fur
rounded by French bas °nets.. was a reasoli
inion of his own.--t 11"
fearing him. He had no op theaaa
a how nearly the matter might
Lear.) Who could s Y
~-nperor Rus..' Austria?
he connected with the I, - . ,aa or of
(Hear, hear.) It was then est card they could play
t
never had such power they would have if they coultra.
iluence.— (Hear, hear.) He °A.
employ the Pope'a inesae-
very much struck with a spec
aluntz) was very . bey
• ate le, an WA• Baronet (Sir R. Peel 'ea use
early in this deb
El. *straightforward
lieve) -.a maidy, os—, independent,
assert.—( There Wes tn Switzerland a state-ll
olf
burg—wbere the Pope was allowed'to appoint bishops free_ed
the control of Government. The bishop there encouragae
the people to march against the Government, and
money out of his own pocket for the purpose. woes
/rfbeett
rested, and sent across the frontier to Rome. lLe t •
received there as a martyr.—(Hear, hear.) "

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