The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-15 00:00:00

if they did not ; they were a Reformed Parliamant, and
how could a reformed Parliament sanction unmerited pen-
sions and simcures For himself, he did not hesitate to

say, that they should immediately divide upon the ques-
tion, and let the nation see the spirit of economy that pre-
vailed in that House. Parliament would then see what

the people would say and think of it. In short, the fact
Was, that Ministers, by their opposition to this measure,
placed it between Parliament and the public. The spirit
that presided at the election of that Parliament was one of
economy and•retrenehment, and the people expected that
it would use every effort to abolish all sinecures and un-
deserved pensions. When so much poverty prevailed in
Ireland, and when, as it had been the other evening stated,
the people in some parts of England did not earn more than
twopence-halfpenny a day, it became a reformed Parlia-
ment to be most sparing of the public money. He was
glad to hear the Noble Lord opposite say, that there were
many offices which might be done away with, and lie
hoped that Government would soon acknowledge that
there were rainy more. He would conclude by putting
it to the House, whether a reformed Parliament was not
hound to divide upon the question now before it?—(Hear.)
Mr. GEORGE WILLIAMS said he stood there in a
most peculiar situation. It was with the greatest unwil-
lingness that lie accepted the honour of a seat in that
House, to which he was sent in direct opposition to his
own inclination.—(Laughter.) He never sought the
honour of a vote in that Assembly ; for, to tell the truth,
he never saw his constituents, nor did they even know
him.—(Laughter.) He repeated, his constituents never
knew nor saw him, until he went among them to thank
them for the confidence they had placed in him by electing
him as their representative. Upon what ground, then, did
they elect him ? Why, they just kne.v enough of him to
be convinced that he was an unflinching opposer of all
useless public expense. They knew this because he had
opposed all eats tvagance within his local power—in the
hundreds and parishes in the vicinity of his residence ;
consequently, it was not surprising that he should now
publicly support measures of economy. There was much
poverty prevalent in the country, and he knew many of
his own constituents who were in absolute want. He had
been among them and through them—(Laughter)—and
he saw that they were but one instance of that extraordi-
nary mass of distress which was so general throughout the
country. He would never consent to one shilling—he
said emphatically one shilling—being spent which was not
absolutely essential to the public service.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM would come to the question
brought before the House by the Hon. Mi mber for Mid-
dlesex, and more point, dly alluded to by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin. The former had paid him
the compliment of avowing that he had introduced mea-
sures of economy into that part of the Administration with
which he was connected. The chief exception the Hon.
Member for Middlesex made to his (Sir J. Graham's)
spirit of economy related to the Governorship of Dart.
mouth and to the Lieutenant• Governorship of the West
India Islands. When he eat upon the Opposition benches,
he and the Hon. Gentlemen who sat near him made re-
peated attempts to take the above-mentioned old fort by
storm. Whatever political influence the Governor or it
might have, his salary was withdrawn; and the Lieu.
tenant-Governorship of the West India Islands might be
said to be abolished. The real question was the military
aryl naval pensions. It ill became him to boast of having
fulfided his promises to his constituents, and of having
done his duty to his country; but he could not help stat-
ing, with respect to the saving of the public money, that
during the two years he was in office he had reduced the
expenses of that part of the Administration with which
he was connected to the extent of ooe million, which was
anout one-fourth part of the whole expenses, and this
lie had done without aff,cting in the slightest way the
fficiency of the public service. (Hear, hear, hear.)
When the estinsates were brought before -the House,
he would be prepared to show that the saving in his
part of the administration would be still greater this yea'
than last.—(hear.) With respect to onninishing pa-
tronage, though he had not materially interfered with
small salaries, he certainly had with the twelve Commis-
sioners and Secretaries, whose salaries were some 1,0001.
others 8001. a-year, and with all salaries of that descrip-
tion which were valuable, and which gave Government
patronage. It would be a gross injustice to his colleagues
if he took all the merit to himself, when he stated, that
the yearly saving in the administration to which he
belonged amounted to 284,0001., and that the whole
saving might be fairly estimated at 2,000,0001. Not-
withstanding this saving, there was a bona fide surplus
of the funds of his administration, and the income was
absolutely greater than the expense. He was led to these
statements by the observations of the Hon. Member for
Middlesex, and by a wish to show that his pledges were
not mere empty boasts. With respect to the question more
immediately before the House—the abolition of the offices
alluded to by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he con-
sidered that those offices could not be done away with
without materially impairing the army and navy service.
If that Hon. Member's suggestions were applied to the
offices in the army, it would be giving a premium to
mediocrity, and would be by no means economical. Let
the military profession be analysed, which was generally
considered a mercenary one, and it would be sten that
t lose who embraced it were actuated by motives of a com-
pound nature. Honourable fame had its toil ience upon
them, but yet they looked towards home, to retirement in
old age, and ease and competency granted by a gra a ul
country. In his opinion, the members of that pio:essus,
would not make great efforts unless sufliaient pay was offered
them, and the only question was the mode of that pay. In
the p ttronage of the Clown was the appointment to com-
mand, and its prerogative extended to both rewards and
punishment. But the Home had a check on the appoint-
ments of the Crown, since it could refuse the expenses at
tending upon them. It ought to be known, that when
very year the estimates were brought forward, the appoint-
ments of this nature passed under review of the House, which,
if it could not annul each appointment, could at least re-
fuse the salary attached to it. Having now stated his
opinion as to the principle of military rewards, be would
come to stone facts connected with the department to
which he belonged. When he was first placed at the
head of that department, there were five yachts, the com-
mand of which were sinecure appointments. One was
considered attached to the service of the Lord Lientenan,
of Ireland, but was suppressed with the consent of that
Nobleman. With regard to two others, the officers com-
manding them were appointed to the superintendence of
works at two Dockyards ; and being called upon to exe-
cute that duty, their original appointment was n i longer
a sinecure. Now, as to the remaining two yachts, they
were destined for the personal use of his Majesty; and
surely it would be too much to withhold from a naval
Sovereign the use of them. He was sure that neither the
House nor the country grudged the accommodation or the
p'easure they might afford to his Majesty. As to the two
the
,ganßGtttwiltlall;:iaeeealttalsliEutialriebtlituri•Apouto:a4,
a(rinuti(:isir,utsffi4n liternnai, Ofcc,sintitlreru.dhotayilh.itioas—nre—rvlfok,.°4.lefiy‘.ruvfitiffi,irEillwtiii;t:°tCnthneog,hega(wd'ina'l'ehloetta:nisoliii:ecdioebrreh'isctebvseheiluiltinoenine'tieefg:da,st,ntailmnhipt
gtintiaopeiainaonlottulleilluitretiniiy;an,odt,bltenenisoisesieti'faeritdlpolshnlaNaieibearrn:stiiey,tichd,ifeenoeeorfalet Vice eewV
thoughtohbauor:llddde
e
.gsatAiri eft::
firstrtieuiordftaeoi the
_eft
found those of Loris Rodney, Howe, Bridport, Exmouth,
and Sir Edward Thornborough. The latter gallant officer
had sixty years of service, and was a Lie.atenant when his
present Majesty first went to sea. Was it then to be won•
dered at, that upon the death of Lord Exmouth, his Ma-
jesty should have appointed him to the vacant dignity ?
However, if the Hon. Member for Middlesex objected to
the appointment, he could refuse the salary attached to it,
when the estimates were brought before the House.
Mr. HUME was understood to say, that he did not
object to the appointment.
Sir J. GRAHAM, after enumerating the names of
those who had been appointed Rear-Admirals, which were
the same as those of the Vice Admirals, with the addition
of Lord Northesk, Sir Thomas Foley, and Sir George
Martin, said, that this was the anniversary of the hattle or
St. Vincent, at which Sir George Martin was present. At
that engagement, when N,laon's ship was crippled, and
he was obliged to change his flag of Admiral, lie did Sir
George Martin the great honour of i•electing the ship he
commanded to carry the flag. Yet how were his services
remunerated ? He is Rear-Admiral of England, with the
large salary of 8851. a year. The piy attached to the
office of Vice-Admiral of England ia ()lily 485/. a year.
The dignity might be considered as something, but the
pecuniary advan age, all must allow, was very trifling. He
contended that a st mulus was necessary both to army and
naval officers, and he would not be doing his duty either to
his country or his King, if he consented to a motion
which would weaken the energy and destroy the efficiency
of the service. On the contrary, h' was determined that
the stimulus should be still kept up, by which the glory oh
our arms would be upheld and transmitted untarnished to

posterity.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that the Ministers, in opposing
the motion of his lion. Friend, the Member for Middle-
sex, seemed inclined to perpetuate old abuses. His Hon.
Blend had endeavoured, by the two resolutions he pi o-
,
p d to establish a principle. The one the Noble Lord
(Althorp) opposite apparently seemed to agree to ; and,
with respect to the other, his chief objection was, that the
proper time Was not yet come. With respect to the tootle
of rewarding naval offieerai the Risht Hun, Baronet

a i~h~

who last spoke thought it should not be done awaY is
for that would be immoral, end would involve the 00
the service also. What ! so small a sum as
the lo
destroy the efficiency of the service ? Let
morality of doing away with this mode of socarid
examined.—(Loud cries of " Question.") He i.°ltb'
mist if his remarks were disagreeable to the House.
s 0
been stated by a Noble Lord opposite that therreowo
diff rence between a sinecure and a pension. Pa td gif
had a control over the one by the annual vote it e
either for the continuance or discontinuance of it.
re
nual.pay for doing nothing, was not less a sincenlitt
being annual. What had been said about the liberiid
the House, and its commiseration in particular ca-"1'
do very well with respect to former Parliaments'
the liberality and commiseration of a Reformed Pat
)t,
not as yet known. When tried, it would be d
haps, found to think but little of particular ealll,,,aniotl
commiseration, and would not be induced by anY e,YEriee
to vote away the money of the public purse.--k ill
(‘ Question, question.") He would not persevere s t
remarks if those interruptions continued. Peril,Pgb
mode of address was not considered captivating 1
obtain attention from the House.—(Hear, 1081..) tsit
subject of the reduction of expenditure, and of tbe
was one to which the people seemed more awake
eets
other. He would, for his own part, perhaps, Pretrorig
it were not so, but he knew it to he a fact, that 5-orbt
opinions were held on these subjects than on a,"Y
There were some taxes which were peculiarly n(1°1;0
which had called for the loudest expressions of disaPrily
tion throughout the kingdom. He alluded err,' jos
the assessed taxes, the taxes on houses and °oil
and the taxes on know ledge. When it was tintl3
to his Majesty's Ministers that those taxes "ibis
taken off, the answer was, that it was imPas'of t
abolish them, because the necessary expenses Istut
kingdom could not be met without them• Ofg
would beg to ask the Noble Lord, the Chaneellnytset
Exchequer, whether it were not better to reduce b-v re
penditure which made those taxes necessary, than 1
sisting in it to endanger the peace and securitY °lot
country. The evil of over-taxation was not 31°,41
distress it created among that class on whom the tasejli
most heavly, but the disunion and jealousy it creta,t,l,4
tween the lower classes and the higher, becauseltlet
classes are apt to throw upon the higher classes tl' stic
of all those evils which result from that over•ta!th t
Another great evil complained of, as connected Wirslil
national debt, was, that it was ruinous to public 0°,,51
He did not know whether the Noble Lord opposite
till'lo',l
that there was any pub is morality, but be o,l'l coot
the Noble Lord that there was such a thing. j,„ecsd
go further than the Hon. Member who introw",,scil
subject under discussion to their notice, in the Prn-olvd
which he adopted. That Hon. Member had divot
reso'ution, to the effect that sinecures were inescPeoevic
a means of rewarding public service. He (hie' fiserti'
would go further—be would not pay where n"
were performed—neither would he pay over-nlose
services performed. He would proportion the tee acc
tion to the service—(Hear, hear.) Moreover, ":4sol
save every item of expenditure, however small' tlrSei
be Paved. Sinecures must be done away with, ill
meet the expectations of the country riel
Major BEAUCLERK rose, amidst loud ',Pi
" Question, question." He would only detain tb..e.ss°,
very few minutes. He was convinced, from
ledge of military men—and he knew very °roll.
nothing was more hurtful to the army in genetl",i of„'
disagreeable to the majority of the officers, "" 0`
army and navy, than those sinecures.—(Cries „lil
oh.") He kn-w it to be the case, for nothirist
more disagreeable to them than the collision OA° set
those sinecures brought them with the poplet
feelingsno
tobject
theyectto ctrheeated particularthroughout
the
ices pceo, ufir,artmrs,'.4
bye
being rewarded, and well rewarded ; but they
the system of officers obtaining tanecures, not Pr:ie
performed, but because they happened to havetbeßd
friends in that House. It was amusing to bear
idsilf)
Hon. Member opposite (the First Lord of the A oil,
t ilk as if sinecures and pensions were always giv:o,
of merit, and to men of merit only. He wonl2,Ottt
since that Right Hon. Gentleman was in
merit had been advanced to posts of honour and elli°,o(
but he would beg the House to look to the service of
ral, and say whether the men who deserved belt,„er
country for their services were those who enln,„' et°
cures, or whether it was always merit which —off'
se
the greatest reward. He thought that the re'j'ier 1
proposition was very apparent in the public or' briei
tier civil or military. He confessed himself ga,r,r,sp)
the manner in which the Noble Lord (Alt",)li,dl
expressed himself towards the Hon. Member v,','t P
sex, in winding to the taunt thrown out I'Y sd't
Member against the Hon. Member for Cutnb"o,4o;
not being so economical in his government 11°.seri
was in office, as he was in his professions Besse:whS
the ()pp 'site side of the House. He (Major O
could not lorget that he was a member of th'i.tc rG
which, in the last Parliament, by means
majority, voted 100,0001. a year to the Querttll°
of " On, oh," and disapprobation.) He thouglitorn
H in. Baronet, in giving his support to that toe' ones
b ()ken faith with his constituents, as he Wss 4; Pe
t ,em under a distinct pledge to promote eeonatnit'oc)l:l
department of the State. He (Major Beatic
the people of this country to be in deep distreeise;
it was absolutely necessary to give them relief '„
Barenet opposite seemed to think that there 11-Ise°,
way of obtaining that relief—that of reducing ,
but he (Major Beauclerk) thought that it :0,,
necessary to reduce the expenditure in every "er.,, i';
He thought it necessary to promote ecoootters
public establishments. His Majesty's Minin
called on to cut down the expense of every "etrs
el,
from the Crown downwards; and he wool') the'
that if they (lid not, they would be buried 'lie
grave with their predecessors.—(A laugh') the `‘.l
that his Majesty's Ministers would not destroy • vs,
general). entertained that they would be a c
honest Government.—(Cheers.) tse'l
Captain YORKE allowed the correctness 0' the
tnent made by the Right Hon. Gentlemanti. eft
Lord of the Admiralty, that he bad reduced t„"ej (Peo
ture of the navy ; but he denied that he Past
without impairing its efficiency, as he (CaPtlti
knew, from his own knowledge of the suhke 'reoc
efficiency of the navy was impaired by Oleos' f
effected by the Right Hon. Gentleman. the a'
Hon. Gentleman had saved two millions 00
expenditure of the navy.

S r JAMES GRAHAM—One
Captain YORKE—WeII, one million °13,, tbe,
expenditure ; but that saving was effected tj'iy"
uleful part of the naval force. It was effect' rrto
duction of one thousand marines, and of Icu tql
seamen, and by diminishing the expentliturra;
stores by 400,0001. He had seen the 40c7i love;
mouth within the last six weeks, and he I°,coi,l
any docks so clean swept. As for the "iv:tbs)
O
Hon. Member for Middlesex, he believed 'li
e-spe,j
Member was not so anxious to cut downe tot-)
as to withdraw the patronage connected with
diture from the hands of the Crown, and Pitle t'l3
hands of the people. Now lie for one tht'ngi ufa
Crown should be supported, and be
1-vli:ems:hat: standto adopt by
e—p(Lheperrosp. )0801Hbey Cataghl'i:e:oar
Noble Lord (Althorp) that it was berto P;
the present system of rewarding officer' 'poi'
Worcester, of increasing the half-pay.
Mr. COBBETT then rose and
be
dsd--- aiarri "°
tj,,
this House almost the first word I heard fr°-
Hon. Baronet opposite, the First Lord of theooltii,
was, that he despised popularity. Now e
the Right Hun. Gentleman how' many a"-br'o;
ceived from the people at the time when hellofert
ward his grand exposition of the 113 swa ode
public gold ? I saw one of the answers 1-05/1
Right Hon. Gentleman to one of those aticrebo 1,
it in the hands of a respectable clergyoan:i 90e,
of those who got up the address, who I'a
for r tbt,
Right Hon. Gentleman in his canvas' .u„firef'
which he represents, and who cannot, thecor,;;‘
sidered as particularly hostile to the gentle
tration—and it answer was, that lie had vibier,'
and satisfactian in having made a th°tinnbe°lo'
the people.—(Hear, hear.) Well,'but io.o tilrof
unpopularity, I admit that those who an 9ery
means, or tor improper purposes, a e he.o
deserve to be disappointed ; but are weavoiri
because we seek for popularity by enricher
the purses of the people, we have in
.0 be 111;
motive?—(Hear, hear.) What fault
toy Hon. Friend the Aleinlier for Dublin
Ile guilty cf that should draw down so "?'"-
him from the other side of the flou'i,i,
this—that lie is much beloved by the ]es taoi
no propose ruea'nj
purse of the people, the answer alway3b ?
to pay the interest of the national de iriterfe,
if there were not sufficient to meet tb tli
.1
national oebt, that would not be so 14
.'(
/ion made by one of the present Minist.eo,oo
to lay a tax of thirty per cent. at ooteLt. geti;
10
in the Funds. Now that was a way
a considerable part of the debt at 00ce:), Cl ;'
ing anything from the pocket of any °Ape/
with the exception Of the itiabOldell