The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-04 00:00:00

of king racrui:efl for, while 10 many able-bodied men
were anxious to enlist themsAvea to keep from starving.
It appeared to him a most extraordinary thing, too, that
such a dreadfully expensive paraphernalia as the six field.
marshals, seven adjutants, six paymasters, and the enor-
mous staff, should be kept up at a time when so large a
Falun of the population were in actual want of food.—
(Hear, hear.) There was a nether sum which he h Itl
often remonstrated against, as applied to a particular class,
and eminently calculated to excite feelings of jealousy and
ill-will against that class—namely, the 6,000/. a year
granted for keeping a table at St. James's for the Light

Dragoon Guards' nffieers ; there were never more than

seven or eight officers to partake of the dinner, yet this
outrageous sum had' been annually granted for this item ;
surely it was an item which might fairly be reduced. As to
the item of 1,200/, for law expenses, he wai at a pet feet
. .

loss to ußderstaml the meaning of it. What lead the

army to do with law expenses? There was another
item of 1,2001. too for bibles and religious batiks ; now
these were excellent things when properly applied, but as

to those said to be distributed at this en,,rinuus rate among

the army, he had good reason to suspect their application
by the soldiers. He would direct the attention of the
House to the scale of troops in former years of peace, when
there bad been quite as much necessity for troops as now,
but when a much smaller number had been found quite

efficient for every purpose. Indeed, in the years to which
he should refer there had been a much greater necessity for
troops than at present : yet in 1822, the number of troops
of the line had been only 68,000 ; in 1823, 69,000 ; in
1824, 63,000. The questi,n he had wished then to put
to the House was, whether we could not have every ser-
vice effectually performed with the same number of troops
now as then was found adequate? In the three years
mentioned, the average number of troops, rank and file,
was 61,900 ; this year it was proposed to increase this
number by no less than 19,000. The increase of expen-
diture over the scale of these years WAS not much less than
21 per cent. on the whole. Under the late Government,
the number of troops was only 80,000; now it was pro-
posed to have 89,000. Surely this was not the proper is ay
of proceeding. Ministers cried out that they were unable to
take off the most oppressive and obnoxious assessed taxes
on account of the great expenditure; well, then, it would
be hest to lop off the unnecessary portion of that expendi-
ture, so as to enable the Ministers to meet the anxious
wishes of the people. His union of the necessary num aers
did not, he believed, exactly coincide with those of Govern-
ment, for lie thought, that instead of having 44,000 troops
in England, 20,000 would be quite sufficient for every
purpose. As to the colonial establishments, most of them
were high y objectionable ; for instance, where was the
need of troops in Canada, in Nova Scotia, at the Cape, at
Ceylon ? At Mauritius their own misgovernment had
created disturbances, and then we must have soldiers to
repress them. At the lonian Islands the presence of our
troops had been eminently mischievous ; and at the
same time most heavily expensive. He was ready to allow
Ministers full time for putting a safe plan of economy into
effect, and he would, therefore, on this occasion, move
that the amount of the original vote should be reduced by
279,0001., being the ainouut of six months' pay and allow-
ances for the army above the establishment which had been
the average to all in the years he had mentioned. He should,
therefore, move, as an amendment, that a sum not ex-
ceeding 2,888,772/. be voted, &e.
The amendment being put,
Sir HENRY HARDINGE rose, and said that, how-
ever desirous he was of every advisable retrenchment, he
could not help saying that the reduction proposed by the
Hon. Member was, in the circumstances of t. e country,
perfectly preposterous.--(Hear, hear.) He defended the
system of the depots. The six companies which were
abroad, being composed of the beat and most healthy men
in the army, were not only efficiewi- but were even found,
in seine cases, to be subject to less mortality than the army
at home. But if this recruiting service were done away
with, it would be necessary to draft men from the regular
corp,, to the great detriment of the army. Thinking,
as he did, that tha exam ,tes were as moderate as they
could be, he would give his suppoi t to Ministers in almost
ail the items.

Sir HENRY PARNELL bad hear with satisfaction
the course proposed to be pursued by his Majesty's Govern-
ment, and he did not mean to object to any of the items.
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Middlesex as to the
necessity of economy ; but he did not think that the Hon.
Member for Middlesex had pursued the proper course to
obtain it.—(Hear, hear.) If twenty thousand men
were to be reduced at once, they should necessarily
have to discharge a great many men, which would of
course increase the pension list. He thought that it
would be better to follow the plan formerly adopted by
the Duke of Wellington, of not filling up the casualties.
The casualties averaged annually from 10,000 to 11,000
men, so that the reduction could be made in a very 'short
apace of time. He thought some saving, however, could
be made by consolidating the different departments of the
army accounts. As they were at present regulated, there
were so many different items, that it was impossible for
the House perfectly to understand them, or to have the
proper control over them.
Major BEAUCLERK thought lie should not be doing
his duty, if he voted for the number of men proposed,
after having voted for the reduction of the malt duty,
and of the house and window tax ; and he condemned the
system by which promotions were regulated. When the
amendment of the Hon. Member for Middlesex should be
disposed of, he would move that the army should be
reduced by 7,000 men. lie thought the Hon. Member
for Middlesex went too far ; and that it was impossible
to reduce 19,000 men in the present state of the country.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought it the worst economy
which could be pursued to adopt the suggestions of either
the lion. Members for Middlesex or for Surrey. When he
looked at the disturbed state of Europe, be thought it im-
possible to reduce the army ; and he should, therefore,
consider it his duty to support the motion.
Major HANDLEY thought that some reduction ought
to be made in the staff of the army ; but he did not
think that the number of regular men in the army could
be reduced.
Sir JOHN BYNG said that be agreed with the Right
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Dundee, that the plan pro-
posed by him was the best. It was gradual, and therefore
safe. As to the additional regiment which had been sent
to the Mauritius, he thought that, in the present circum-
stances of that colony, it was necessary.
Lord ALTHORP certainly thought that the plan pro-
posed by the Hon. Members for Middlesex and Surrey
not the best that could be proposed. He considered that
the stopping of the recruiting, as proposed by the Right
lion. Member for Dundee, was the only economical system
to effect a reduction. - At present his Majesty's Govern-
ment did not feel themselves justified in making any re-
duction in the army; but he could assure the House
that, if in the course of the year an opportunity oc-
curred of reducing the army, it should be done in the
way suggested by the Right Hon. Member for Dundee.
The same system had been followed by the Duke of Wel-
lington to a great extent, and found eminently successful.
It was their wish to reduce as quickly as possible; but
still it was necessary to keep the force effective. His
Noble Friend would propose a Committee on the subject,
to which he (Lord Althorp) would accede. He hoped
that their labours would give satisfaction to the country;
and he should, therefore, not offer any more remarks on
the subject.
Mr. LENNARD addressed the Committee for several
minutes, amidst incessant cries of " Question, question,"
" Withdraw, withdraw !" which rendered him entirely
inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. HUME spoke to order. If the Committee did
not choose to listen to the Hon. Member for Maldon, or
any other Hon. Member who wished to speak on a ques-
tion of so much importance, he would move an adjournment.
Lord ALTHORP said that if, at that hour of the night,
Hon. Gentlemen would not attend to questions of im-
portance, it would be impossible to get through the public

business.
Mr. LENNARD proceeded. He contended that his
Majesty's Ministers were bound to fulfil their pledges of
economy; and if they refused to reduce the establishments
of the army, the navy, and the ordnance, how was it pos-
sible they could do so ?
Mr. BRISCOE observed that no less than two-thirds
of that part of the revenue over which Government and
the Legislature had any control was expended on our
naval and military establishments ; and therefore be felt
that the present was an occasion of retrenchment which
ought not to be neglected. Under these circumstances,
he could not pardon himself if he were to refrain from
giving a silent vote on the subject.—(A. laugh.) He
should certainly support the amendment of the Hon.
Member fur Middlesex.
Mr. HODGES would support the original motion ;
but, feeling as he did, that the whole country wished fo.
a reduction of public expenditure, he should certainly, in
the next session of Parliament, if the estimates were not
framed on a more moderate scale, oppose their adoption.
Mr. HUME said that the object of his motion had been
misunderstood. He did not want anv reduction of the
number of men, if the reduction of the expenditure coulo
be otherwise accomplished. Ile wished to see the surplus
officers of the Blues and of other regiments reduced; and
to see the expenditure reduced in every possible manner.
He confessed that he was at a loss to understand the
principle of the vote of the Hon. Member for West Kent.
If that Hon. Gentleman allowed that the whole country
desired a reduction of the public expenditure, why not set