The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-07 00:00:00

IRISH CHURCH COMMISSION.

~~

retiinegetstheef pthrienceieteminiataoionebffeeeetn."epenTl2,li,usb,rothadtyetl,, had
dthise-
tliinacjtelaytyavogwe-evdernirm.
eannto.thershpelaucled by
they th e
hear
tmembersQse of his
senti-
ments
a
tthe head
of the
re-echoedwithin those walls' -Would the noble
earl
quis, •the PreearLa. —6vverpment, and the noble mar-
t,.
ent of the Council; gite their countenance
t4-such opinions?`Chu eesoliitions themselves were be-
fore the ertield, end he did not need to repeat them ; it
was enough for him to say that they not only declared
the competency of the state to lay violent hands on the
property of the ehurch, biit that the time had come when
that interference was necessary. ( Hear, hear.) The
noble earl opposite, he trusted, would be glad of the op-
portunity of repelling the foul calumny which such senti-
ments must throw on the character and principles of the
government ; for he (Earl Wicklow) could not but at-
tribute them, not to the statesmanlike views of the pre-
sent administration, but rather, he hoped, to the fault and
inaccuracy of parliamentary reporters. The noble earl then
referred to the progress of revolutionary opinions in this
country in connection with the history of Whigism, and
quoted a passage from the writings- of Mr. Burke, in
which it was stated that " the people of England had in-
corporated and identified the estates of the church with the
mass of private property, of which the state is not the pro-
prietor, either for use or dominion, but the guardian and
the regulator. (Cheiers. ) They had ordained that the
provision for the establishment should be as stable as the
earth on which it stands, and should remain inviolable. It
was dangerous here to talk of more or less ;" too much'
and too little' were treason against property ; sacrilege
and proscription were not among the ways and means of
our committees of supply." ( Cheers.) These were sen-
timents worthy of an honest Whig. But it might be said
that Burke at that period was not a Whig. True, he had
separated from that party who had called themselves his
friends, 'and Whigs; but he had perceived, when the try-
ing occasion came, that if he was. to be enabled to serve
his country, and protect her from the poisoning influence
of French democratieal principles, it was only to be done
by quitting their mischievous connexion. Those opinions
were promulgated to the world when the noble earl now at
the head of his Majesty's government was commencing his
public career. True; - the spheres in which they both:
tweed were very different. They might by posse.
bility have both been wrong; but both could not
have been right. Most probably the noble earl was
satisfied with the line which he had taken;bu
but he
must remember that his public character was public
property, and open to public animadversion. It was mat-
ter of history—and he believed the historian of the times
would not fail to mark it—that the dawn of the noble earl's
political career was in the midst of the dissemination of
French Jacobinical principles over the world, and that its
setting would be the downfall of the Church of England.
(Hear, hear.) He could not lose sight of the effect s
which this commission must have, as a matter of course,
in that country to which it was directed. This was a part
of the case with respect to which, as a representative peer
of Ireland, he might be expected to feel more warmly than
some of their lordships • but he would most solemnly avow
that of all the plan; which the most wild, and reckless,
and mischievous administration could devise in order most
effectually to conciliate that country, this was the most
calculated to open up all those wounds which the Govern-
ment of later times had been endeavouring to close up, and
to produce a train of the most alarming consequences.
Was it safe, with the elements of the social system disor-
ganized, to allow this demon of discord to stalk abroad—
to enter every parish church, hamlet, andh bitation, great
or small—and for what? To separate the religious sects,
the Protestant from the Catholic ; to set the great majority
on one side, and mark the small minority for the odium and
ridicule of the predominant party. The measures of the
noble lord were said to be based on the principle
of doing away with all religious difference. Was this
the manner in which it was to be effected? The noble earl
then referred to the prevalence of emigration from Ireland
by vast numbers, in consequence of the insecurity of their
lives and property in Ireland. He must attribute the con-.
duct of ministers to ignorance of the condition of the
country, for he would not attribute it to a worse motive.
He trusted, however, that the country would open its eyes
to the course which was now being pursued, and that the
people would bestir themselves in defence of all that they
held sacred and dear. (Hear, hear.) • He hoped that, at
least, their lordships would let the people of this country
know, that if there was a House of Commons clamorous
for the sanctioning of measures of the kind now proposed,
and a government ready to pander to the passions of agita-
tors, there was still in their lordships' house a body will-
ing to support them, and capable of doing so. (Aitieh
cheering.) He.turned with confidence to the noble mar-
quis opposite (Lansdowne) who had always been intrusted
by the country. He was not one of those statesmen who,
in their career, reminded one of the seaweeds cast up from
the bottom, to float for a time on the surface of the flood,
ready to sink to their original position ae soon as the agi-
tation of the waters should subside. ( Hear, and laughter. )
The noble marquis had long occupied an honourable position
in public estimation, and until he heard him in his place
avow that he concurred in the sentiments uttered by his
colleagues in the other house, he would never believe that
he could do so. The question whizh he (the Earl of Wick-
low) bad raised must have an answer. The usual policy of
ministers would not succeed. Silence would be dainnatory
There was a manliness in an open and candid hearing, but
silence was cowardice. A declaration must be made, and,
therefore, he asked the noble earl, whether the Cabinet
was determined to advocate the principle that it was legal
to seize upon the property of the church, and apply it, un-
der the name of religious and moral purposes, to purposes
other than those of the Church of England—whether,
in fact, the government could seize upon the property of
the church, and apply it to religious purposes of the Ro-
man Catholic population ? The noble earl concluded by
moving, " that an address should be presented to his Ma_
jesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to direct
a copy of the commission issued relative to the Church of
Ireland to be laid upon the table of the house."
Earl GREY next addressed the house to the following
effect, but it may not be unnecessary to state, that he was
occasionally indistinctly heard :--My lords, it is not, I be-
lieve, my usual practice tosheltcr myself beneath a cowardly
silence, and most assuredly I will not do so on the present
occasion. (Hear, hear.) I will proceed to state with' as
much distinctness as I can, what are the views, the mo-
tives, and the principles which induced me and my col-
leagues to advise his Majesty to issue the commission
which is the subject of this night's discussion. Before,
however, I enter into a consideration of those circumstances
which naturally arise out of the speech delivered by the
noble earl, I must offer a remark on the nature of the mo-
tion which he has submitted. The motion is simply for
the production of a copy of the commission. To that mo-
tion no objection will be made from this side of the house.
The noble earl must have been assured that the motion
would not be opposed, because a similar motion has been
acceded to in the House of Commons, and a copy of the
commission is actually now upon the table of that house.
The noble earl, however, not choosing to wait for
the production of the commission, has been pleased to
offer various comments upon what he considers its ob-
jects, and to lay the foundation for a future motion—for if,
upon examination, the commission should be found to bear
the character which the noble earl has attributed to it, I
must tell the noble earl—as I told the noble duke at the
commencement of the business this evening—that his duty
will not conclude with his speech which he has delivered,
but that he must take one of three courses. If the
commission should prove to be such as he has described it,
and to be issued from the motives which he supposes, he
must either propose a vote of censure upon us who ad-
vised the issuing of it, or move an address to his Majesty
to revoke the commission ; or he must move an address
praying his Majesty at once to dismiss his ministers who
have been guilty of the inexpiable crime of advising him
to issue a commission which is founded on principles of in-
justice and spoliation, and is calculated to set Ireland in a
flame. ( Hear.) It is the duty of the noble earl and those
who take the same view of the matter that he does, not to
content themselves with mere declamation, but to
adopt practical measures, and to do what in them lies to
show the country the great 'danger which would be in-,
curred by suffering the government to continue in the
hands of those who at present administer it. I say there
is no shrinking from this course. ( Hear, hear.) The
noble earl must be prepared to follow up the motion of
this night with another, having for its object the putting
an end to an administration which, in his opinion, is likely
to produce so much mischief to the country. ( Hear. )
Having said thus much, I will wait anxiously for the
further proceedings on the part of the noble earl,
which, I think, he is bound to institute, and will now
proceed to notice some of the arguments which he has
employed on the present occasion. (Hear, hear.) The
noble earl supposes that the commission could have been
issued with no other intention than that of sanctioning the
spoliation of the church. I deny that such is the case. I
say that myself and my colleagues do not look forward te.
anything that can justly deserve the name of spoliation. WO
certainly look forward to a great alteration ; but to nothing
beyond that. When the noble earl talks of the commission
being paramount to the Government, and of its being in-
vested with power to dictate to the ministers of the crown,
and quotes for his authority an extract from a speech deli-
vered by his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, in the other house (whether correctly reported or
not I do not know) I must say that he puts a false con-
struction both upon the grounds on which the commission
was issued, and the motives of those who have advised it.
The commission was to inquire not into opinions but into
facts, for the purpose of collecting information on which
ultimately the Government and Parliament may form an
opinion and act. The commission prejudges nothing, de-
cides nothing. But, says the noble earl, a principle is in-
volved in the issuingnf the commission which no adminis-
tration ought to sanction, and no legislature support—
namely, the principle, as the noble earl states, of seizing
upon the property of the church. I deny that this is the
principle of the commission. The commission is issued
with a view to the regulation, with a view, if you will, to
.a different appropriation of the revenues of the church.
(Hear, from the opposition.) I ask the noble earl whe-
ther in the country which is naturally the first object of his
solicitude, he can meet with many persons who think that
the state of the church in-Ireland is such as not to requir,e
the most careful attention ? I have all my life hated the dis-

The Earl of WICKLOW said, in bringing for-
ward his motion he should not detain the house long,
knowing the anxiety which prevailed not to hear his
sentiments, but those of others in reply to such obser-
vations as he might offer. If any apology was due,
it was due to that country of which he had the honour
of being a representative, that he had not had an-op-
portunity of asking the noble lord for an explanation,
which might have the effect of allaying the fears
entertained by the friends of the established church,
not only in Ireland but in England. ( Hear.) He
did not bring forward this question out of hostility
to the ministry, because he had always been desirous
of supporting their measures, and he had no intention
to add to the embarrassments in which they were
already involved. He had thought he perceived a system
of carrying on the Government in Ireland with more
impartiality towards that country, and more energy in
the Government itself. ( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He had, however, been most lamentably deceived.
He now saw, from the position which t.te present Govern-
ment had assumed, that their line of policy, so far from
being improved, was likely to become considerably worse.
They had now divested themselves of the aid of those to
whom the country had hitherto looked up with some de-
gree of confidence ( Hear, hear), and they had thrown
aside their drag-chain, which might be said to have im-
peded their rapid course in the down path of revolutionary
spoliation. ( Hear, hear.) With reference to the commis.-
sion, viewed abstractedly from the circumstances and
events with which it was connected, he was at a loss to see
on what principle or ground it could be maintained. Was
it the result of any motion in that or the other house of
Parliament ? Was it required by any deliberations or acts
now being carried on in either house ? Certainly not. The
only measure in progress which it might be said, in some
degree, to affect, was the Irish Tithe Bill. But could it
be said that Government required the commission in order
to carry that measure into effect ? Assuredly not. The
bill had been laid on the table of the other house for a
considerable time, and had resulted from the united wis-
dom of a united Cabinet. It had been read a second
time—it now stood for the committee ; its principles were
acknowledged, and it had in general received the sanc-
tion of a large majority of that house. It could not,
therefore, be said that Government required to issue the
commission, in order to afford satisfactory information on
that measure. On what ground, then, could it be de-
fended ? It was strange that this Commission should be
notified on the very eve of that Gracious Speech alluded
to by the noble duke (Newcastle). He did not require
anything which had taken place in the house this evening
to inform him that it was irregular to allude to any speech
of his Majesty, particularly of a private nature ; but when
a document of that nature had been published in the news-
papers of the day, when it was announced to be the speech
of the Sovereign, and when there was no contradiction to
it., he thought that he had a right to consider it, he would
not say, as the speech of the Sovereign, but, at all events,
to allude to it as a document of public notoriety. (Hear,
hear.) He would not say that his Majesty had ever made
that speech ; but he would put the case hypothetically,
and he would say, if any Sovereign of England did utter
such a speech, it was one which did equal honour to his
head and his heart. It proved that he was not unmindful
of the sacred duties which he had to perform—that he had
duly studied the annals of his country and family to some
effect and purpose—that he well knew the principles and ti
causes which placed the House of Hanover on the throne
of these realms, and which cast into exile the House of
Stuart : he well knew the light which was to guide his
path, and the beacons which warned him of that which he
ought to shun. (" Hear, hear," from the Duke of Cum-
berland.) Was it not then strange that, on the very eve
of that declaration, the tears still moist on the Royal
cheek, the Ministers of the Crown should pro-
pose to the Sovereign the issuing of this commission ?
( Hear, hear, hear.) He should like to know if the rea-
sons given in another place, and which, from their publi-
city, he had a right to allude to, had been assigned to the
Sovereign in order to induce him to put his name to this
commission ? He should like to know if it were really
true that a commission of this sort, which every body
knew required some time, and considerable formality, had
actually been signed and issued, bona fide, on Monday ?
( Hear, hear.) At all events, it was evident that it had
been got up with extreme rapidity, and had been brought
up to the Sovereign on the very day it had been determined
on. ( Hear, hear.) He had asked whether the reason
stated in another place had been assigned to his Majesty,
in order to obtain his signature. What were those decla-
rations ? He found by the public papers that a noble
lord, high in his Majesty's councils, had made use of the
following language :—" He needed not, he thought, to say
that no an in his senses could think of advising his Ma-
jesty to issue such a commission, unless he was prepared to
act on whatever the report of that commission should be.
( Hear, hear.) A minister of the crown—a person high in
rank in the administration of the country—the leader of
the House of Commons—had made that declaration.
Had they, then, come to this ? Were the duties of the
administration to be thus delegated to commissioners
Was such a commission, like a Roman dictator, to
supersede all law and the established institu ions
of the country ? (Hear.) But another declaration made
by another noble lord, a member of his Majesty's govern-
ment, was to the following effect:—" He stated that he
differed from the hon. member for St. Albans when he
said that ministers must dissent from this resolution, be-
cause they did not adopt it ; he thought, in fact, that
government were adopting the very best method of car-

cussing of abstract principles,and that which is involved by I great question of Parliamentary Reform, which, in my lat-
the present discussion is certainly rather of a speculativ s ! ter days, I have 'brOught- to a successful termina-
tie= .of a prectical nature; but if I. am called upon to lion. (Loud cheers.) With respect `to Mr. Burke, I
avow my opinions on the point, I trust that I have too can never speak of that illustrious person without the
much manliness to shrink from declaring them. It was greatest admiration of his talents, his. unbounded know-
certainly my wish that the property involved in the bill to ledge, his extraordinary attainments, and without a deep
which the noble earl in the course of his speech adverted, sense of the important services which he rendered his coun-
should be secured ; but I never met with any person, either try. There is no author from whose pages I would more
belonging to the sister country or to this, who would not willingly extract the principles of Whigism than from
admit that the church in Ireland stood in a different situa- those of Mr. Burke; but it unfortunately happens, at the
tion from the church in England. It is true that they are same time, that there is no Tory, let him be ever so vio- •
united. by law (the policy of which may well be disputed) ; lent, who cannot from other parts of that illustrious man's
but it is universally admitted that the circumstances con- writings aeduce principles consistent with those which he
netted with the churches of the two countries are so dif- professes, particularly with respect •to the Irish Church.
ferent, that different measures of improvement are neces- : The noble earl says, that having passed the measure
sary for that of Ireland than are applicable to of parliamentary reform, we have since been proceeding
the church in this part of the empire. Under in a mad career of revolution. It has been my
these circumstances I contend that the property of the anxious desire and endeavour to do exactly the con-
church does not stand on the same footing in both coun- trary of what the noble earl attributes to me. (Hear,
tries. The rights of the present possessors I will hold hear.) It is undoubtedly true, that I and every
sacred ; but I maintain that the property of the church other member of the late administration, except one,
is a subject for the exercise of the discretion of Parlia- felt the urgent necessity of introducing the measure of
ment. Is this opinion exclusively received? I certainly parliamentary reform. We thought it right, also, that it
do not like the practice, which is inconsistent with the should be extene;ve, in order that we might afterwards take
orders of the house, of quoting from speeches made else- our stand upon it —and I appeal to your lordships and the
where ; but as the noble earl has set the example, I will country whether I have not resisted every attempt to push
quote from the speech of one whom I regard as a very the principles of that measure further. ' Having, however,
high authority, and whom the noble earl will readily ade secured to the people of England their own representation,
mit to be so. In a recent debate in the House of Com- by means of.which they can correct existing abuses, and
mons, I find these words attributed to a right hon. barn- prevent the introduction of new ones, it was my. anxious
net :—" He was prepared to meet the motion of the hon. desire that in the prosecution of further salutary improve-
member
for St. Albans with a direct negative ; but if he ments, tae government should proceed in a regular course,
did so, it would be extremely unjust to imply that he on moderate and constitutional principles, and not be
was contented with the present condition of the established urged by clamour from without into extreme and dange-
church in Ireland. I'vvo years ago, when a committee was rous measures. This course I have endeavoured to pur-
appointed on the subject, those effio were connected with sue in spite of misrepresentations from both sides. I have
that committee could bear testimony that he (Sir R. Peet) been attacked oe one side, unjusly, I think, upon some
almitted himself ready to 'consider any measures calculated occasions, for feebleness and indecision ; and on the other
to correct any abuses that prevailed in that establishment. for precipitancy and violence. I have endeavoured to
He stated h.s opinion at that time—an opinion which still avoid both extremes. I have always felt a deep anxiety,
remain el the same—that, the stateof the Peotestant church which may, perhaps, have obstructed my course, to avoid
in Irelan 1 was such, that the time might come when they collision between this and the other house of parliament.
ought to consider whether or no measures might not be Your lordships are aware of the feeling which prevails on
demel for appropriting a portion of the clinical property this subject, and lam sure that you will do your duty fear-
of Ireland, not to other objects but so as to• facilitate the lessly and honotirably, but I beg to Akan you against the
propagation of divine truth, which was the great end and consequences of a collision which, whatever party might gain
ai n of that establishment." (Loud cries of " Hear, hear," the victory, and I think that on which side victory would be
fom the opposition.) . Noble lords cry " Hear ;" and I can hardly be doubted, cannot be attended by anything but
resefond to that acclamation. I certainly think that the consequences of the most dangerous nature. I stand here
pissage I have read asserts the true principle on which we as the minister of the crown before your lOrdships and the
should proceed. When ' Sir W. Peel, I say, expressed country, asking only for a candid interpretation of my mo-
hi.nself dissatisfied with the present condition of the church Lives and actions, and prepared to stand or fall by them. I
in Ireland, and said the time must come when it would be appeal to my late and present colleagues whether they have
necessary to decide upon a different appropriation of its re- found ttie at any time much attached to office. The time
venues, he stated the principles on which I have acceded I must come when, from the infirmity of age, I can no
quence of an imperative sense
to the issuing of the commission. I will fairly avow my longer retain office, and if I stand at this moment in
tto his .. ajesty, to whom I am bound
opinions with respect to the property of the church in Ire- the situation of minister of the crown, it is only in conse-
of the duty which I
land.
should
remain
think,ma in b
beyond
di f
web
at ia considerablerequired excessto ev revenue o
weby obligations
, gin careful!
perhaps, than ever bound a subject to his Sove-
cieny of the church, and those other purposes connected
reign, carefully to guard the peace and safety of the
as Sir Robert Peel says, with the interests of true religion
country. Would there not, I ask, have been
7-I avow the principle that the state has a right to deal ,
ence, if not danger, in breaking up the government at
ineonveni-
with that surplus with a view to the exigencies of the statef
supportof trhe
the present period of the session—thus interrupting the
and the general interests of the country. (Loud cries 0
measures which are in progress, and preventing the intro-
anHear," from the opposition.) This may or may not be
duction of others, which I believe are absolutely necessary'?
erroneous opinion, but I can assure your lordships that These
These are the grounds upon which I have acted. In the
it is the conscientious opinion of one who is as sincere
statement I have made, I have had no reservation • I
well-wisher and supporter of the church as any one of you.
have concealednothing which honest '
an msn ought to
When I contemplated the measures and proceedings ine to
state. I leave my ea! the judgment of your lordships,
the other House of Parliament, I certainly did think (and
it is surprising to me that any one with his eyes open can only stating that, desirous as lam to uphold the character
come to any other conclusion) that a full investiga-
of this house, I am bound to say that its safety, honour, and
tion into the state of the Irish church, with a view to
usefulness depend on its acting, not in contradiction to, but
in conformity with, the spirit of the age. NS hen Napoleon
such alterations as may be found expedient, and amongst
was in captivity at St. Helena, he said to his attendants,
others, with a view to a different aropriation of its reve-
" I have (alien, not in consequence of the combination
nues, was absolutely necessary. The noble earl says, that
the issuing of the commission will establish a precedent for which was against me, but because I opposed the spirit of
a similar proceeding with respect to the church in England. the age. The Bourbons will fos a time act in accordance
I hope not ; I trust that the Protestant established religion with that spirit, but they will soon fall back into their old
will be preserved and maintained in all the purity in which habits, and then the irresistible pow: rof the. age will de-
it now exists in this country ; but lam sure that those stroy them ; and this, too, will be the fate of all the old
who endeavour to connect the two churches, in spite of the Governments of Europe, if they do not adapt their policy
anomalous circumstances in which the church in Ireland is to the necessities of the times." (Hear.) These were
placed—circumstances so anomalous that nothing like them sound principles, inculcated by a high authority, who, un-
was ever before known in the history of the world—do not der the pressure of the calamities which he aeknowledged
benefit the church in England, and give no support to the he had brought upon himself, took a calm and philoso-
church in Ireland. Can any one who looks at. the state of phical review of the events in which he had been a prin-
the Irish church fail to perceive that it must necessarily be cipal actor. I trust yourlordships will not be led away by
a subject of anxious consideration with every statesman? general declamation about the destruction of the church,
The revenues of the church of England are not, if pro- but that you will consider, seriously and calmly, whether
perly distributed, more than sufficient to insure its effi- it is possible that the Church of Ireland can be maintained
ciency ; bet in Ireland, where not more than one-seventh in the state in which it stands at the present moment, and
of the popu'etion is Protestant, and only one-tenth belongs whether it is not only the part of true wis torn but the
to the established church; the revenues of the establish- bounden duty of parliament, acting on sound statesman-
tnent are enormously disproportionate to its wants. Is it like views and principles, to adopt measures which will
possible to believe that this state of things can exist with- prove salutary to the church itself. To the motion sub-
out some inquiry upon the subject ? Feeling that this is a mitted by the noble earl, I have, as I before said, no ob-
subject which has attracted general attention—to which jection ; but if the noble earl really entertains the opinions
not a few factious demagogues, as the noble earl described which he has declared with respect to the conduct of the
them, but a great number of sincere well-wishers of the administration, and the effect that will be produced by
established church look with deep anxiety—believing that
issuing the commission, he is bound not to leave the mat-
it is one with respect to which the opinion of the majority ter where it is at present. It is his duty for the sake of
of the House of Commons is no longer dubious—his Ala-
the country, to submit a motion which will have for its
jesty's Ministers have thought it right to recommend the object to take from our hands the administration of public
ts,nt,fig of a commission to obtain all the information which affairs. In that case my only prayer will be, that the Go-
is lequisite to enable Parliament to ascertain in what man- vernment may be . placed in hands that' will conduct it on
ner the Irish church should hereafter: be dealt with. sound and safe principles ; but I tell your lordships again,
In doing this, I. disclaim any intention to sanction that the principles on which it is conducted must be in
the principle of spoliation ; I wish merely to effect a conformity with the spirit of the age, in order that pro-
new appropriation of the revenues of .the church. greys may be made in those further salutary improvements
This is a principle which every country in Europe which necessarily grow out of the great measure of reform.
has recognised and acted upon. All I can say is, that I can declare to your lordships that I experience no great
believing it to be our duty to support the Protestant reli- satisfaction in occupying my present situation. Give me
gion, and the Irish church, by rendering the latter less leave to assure you; that it cannot be very agreeable to me
odious in the eyes of the people of that country than it is to sit here, night after night, to see arranged on the oppo-
at present, we have recommended the appointment of the site benches a number of your lordships, which I know,
commission for the purpose of laying before his Majesty whenever called into a division, must decide the question
and Parliament such a body of facts as will enable him to against me. Nevertheless, I have persevered under all
come to a clear and impartial decision on the subject. The the difficulties and disadvantages incident to this state of
noble earl says, that there is no just motive for the step we things, in the hope that better times would occur. The
have taken. Has the noble earl attended to the opinions, noble earl says he is disappointed in the expectations
not, I say again, of violent men, who are ready to rush which he formed with respect to the conduct of Govern-
into any extravagant excess, but of the sober, reflecting ment. I also have been disappointed in another respect ;
part of the community, and,- above all, of the House of for, notwithstanding the forbearance, for observing which,
Commons ? Let us, for a moment, advert to the numbers during the present session, the noble earl takes so much
of the late division in the House of Commons. The num- credit to himself, I observe symptoms of a bitterness of
bers appear by the votes to have been 336 to 120, the mi- spirit which I cannot help deploring. In conclusion I will
nority being in favour of a proposition which, had I been observe, that if the noble earl has good reasons for enter- •
a member of that house, I would have opposed. Those taming the opinion which he has expressed respecting the
who voted for that proposition desire a larger measure of conduct of Government, he ought to adopt proceedings to
alteration than I do. The number of those who voted for effect our removal from office ; but if he will not do this,
the previous question, and of those who supported the ori- let him at least permit our measures to proceed without
ginal motion, united, amount to 516. Now, deducting endeavouring to excite throughout the country a factious
from this number my right hon. friend, the late Secretary spirit of discontent. (Cheers. )
for the Colonies, and those who wish him to deny the The Earl of RIPON said he felt that he owed an apo-
power of Parliament, under any circumstances, or at any logy to their lordships for presenting himself on the pre-
time, to divert the revenues of the church, .whether they sent occasion. He was conscious that he was scarcely
be wanted or not, from their original purposes (whose entitled to arrest their attention with what he had to sub-
number I estimate at 100), there still remain 416 members mit to them, little interesting as must be to their lordships
of the House of Commons—that is to say, a considerable any matters that could be considered as affecting himself
majority of the whole house, decidedly in favour of a mea- Personally ; but he took another view of the course which
sure of this description. I ask the noble earl whether, un- he thought it his duty to pursue. He should not have said
der these circumstances, he thinks that the danger which one word upon this subject—and they were a very few
threatens the church in Ireland would have been averted by words that he had to say—if he did not feel that an indi-
our showing no inclination to yield to the expressed wish of vidual who had taken on himself a responsible •situation
the House of Commons ? Would it have been better if, in under the Crown was as much bound to give an account of
stead of the government taking the Matter into its own bands and to justify his abandonment of that situation, as he was
and issuing a commission, we had allowed the House of (after having accepted) to account for and to justify any
Co.nniOns, against our wishes, to address his Majesty, act he performed while holding such office. He trusted,
praying for an inquiry into the state of the Irish Church ? therefore, that their lordships would pardon him while he
I and my colleagues must have retired as soon as the result stated the grounds on which he had acted on the late un-
of the division had been made known ; and who, I should fortunate occasion—unfortunate he called it, and so he in-
like to know, would have answered the address of the deed considered it ;—not as related to himself—not as to
House of Commons ? Another administration would pro- the way in which it might have affected the composition of
bably have been formed on principles more congenial to the the Government—but unfortunate, because he was well '
sentiments of the noble earl, who might have advised his aware that the event was one which could not be discussed
Majesty to give such an answer to the address as would either here, or by the public at large, withoutc the risk
peraps have led to consequences which I cannot contem-
~,
being incurred of feelings being raised 1i,,. b might lead
•hplate without the greatest apprehension. • Under the cir- to most dangerous results (Loud cries of Hear"),
mode, as
and
cumstances in which we were placed, I certainly concurred
which it had been his object, in every possible
in advising his Majesty to do what I.think will—unless it far as related to his acts as a member of the Government,
t
be made the subject of party violence—be best for the to restrain. ( Cheers. ) His noble friend who had. just
sat down had stated to them the principles on which he
Interests of the country. The noble earl has fixed upon
• •the speechofnoble f ' din
a particular expression in
w
ethe other House of Parliament. and, with reference to was the head; and he had called on those who had been
r
that, says that he would not have issued the commission recently connected with him in Office .to bear testimony
without being prepared to act upon it. Undoubtedly we to the spirit with which he had endeavoured to meet,
would not ; but we are not prepared to do what the noble and with which he had in many instances surmounted, the
difficulties
earl apprehends—namely, to take the revenues of the increasing with which the Government had
Protestant Church and give them to the Catholic Church. been surrounded. His noble friend called on them to.
I know that such an imputation has been cast upon us ; I bear witness with respect to measures involving changes in
am aware that I have been charged with having such an our institutions, which his object had been to preserve and
intention, but I disclaim it as most unjust. What I and improve, and not to overturn and destroy. He bore his
my colleagues propose to do is simply this—we are pre- willing testimony to those assertions of his noble friend.
pared to act upon the commission as far as this—that when If, indeed, he had observed indications of a contrary po-
it produces such a body of information as, we expect, we licy, he hoped he was not so unmanly and base an indi-
will take it into consideration, and be prepared to act upon vidual as to have remained in the Government with his
it honestly and conscientiously, with a view to the general noble friend, while he disapproved of the course he pur-
interests of the country. (Hear, hear.) We are accused sued. He was sure, however, that his noble friend would
of precipitancy. The noble earl says that we have decided do him the justice to believe, that he and the noble and
upon issuing the commissiot in the heat of the moment, hon. colleagues whom he had acted with on this occasion
without due deliberation. - In order to relieve the noble had been p ompted by nothing but a sense of duty—by a
earl from all anxiety on account of the rash proceedings of conscientious conviction, by which they felt themselves
his Majesty's ministers, I humbly beg leave to inform to be bound to withdraw from the administration. His
him that this commission is no new matter, but that noble friend and their lordships would believe that they
several months ago—my noble friend near me informs me had been actuated by no feelings of a mere personal na-
it was on the lath of January last—a despatch (able, as ture—by no desire, God knew, to shrink from any part of
every thing is which proceeds from the noble marquis) the responsibility that devolved on them as members of the
was received from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, recom- Government, but by the impossibility they found of being
mending that such a commission should be issued. (Hear.) able to reconcile it to their sense of duty and to their con-
If we have any thing to reproach ourselves with, it is, sciences to be a party to that measure which now had
perhaps, with not having acted sooner on the noble been adopted by the Government, and which had this
marqu,s's recommendation. I have now announced the evening been made the subject of discussion. (Hear, hear.)
principles ore which the Government is prepared to acts He was well aware that, in these times, it was impossible
and I believe that in acting upoh them w h ll es a not be pur- for an Administration to attempt to carry on public affairs
suing a course that will endenger the general interest of unless it adverted to the spirit of the age. However strange
society or of religion. I may be mistaken—l may be it might appear to some of his former friends, he was a
misguided—l may be wrong; but these are the principles zealous and honest advocate for the great measure of Par-
, upon which lam prepared to act, conscientiously believing liamentary reform. He thought it calculated to put an
that by such a course alone can the affairs of Ireland be end to a system under which the law was constantly vio-
brought to a satisfactory result. The noble earl says, that lated ; and this he held to be an evil of such a nature that,
we Whigs are acting upon principles which are not the unless it•was mitigated, it would destroy the respect that
principles of Whigs, as described by Mr. Burke;_ and he the people ought to bear towards those who were their
also alluded to an early period of my life, and said that I representatives in Parliament. ( Hear, hear.) On this
begat, my career by assisting in the dissemination of ja- principle, then, he supported parliamentary reform ;,,,_,e.
cobinical principles, and am now about to conclude it by he never was disposed tit adopt any measure to stox ft
.7%•
effecting the downfall of the church; I hope the noble clamour, or to avoid the pressure from witho.tiet.c,(..!-Ze,l.er
'earl's prophecy may prove as false as his facts, -In early He yielded solely, because he thought thavtietwhe .
of the spirit
life I certainly took up with all the fervour' of youth the just. But though he entertained those

with which the government must administer the affairs of
England and Ireland, it was impossible for him not to feet
that there might arise questions relating to the great in-
stitution of the country on which it would unquestionably
not be safe to yield. (Cheering.) His noble friend said.
that it was not safe to rest. He knew that it was in diffi-
cult times often very cl,fficult to rest. (Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") But if they were to act on that prin-
ciple they would rest on nothing--they would still go on
to rest nowhere. (Cheering.) If this, then, were the
consequence, was he not justified in saying that he would
take on himself to try if they could not rest here? If they
did not here, he knew not where the resting place would
tion to appoint a commission arose out of pectin
be. As his noble friend had correctly stated, the
circum-
stances,proposi-
and was taken up suddenly. The question was
deeply considered, and certainly great objections were felt
by himself, as well as by his colleagues, to the adoption
sAibtl
of that commission. He had no particular desire 0
avail himself of the compliment that he and his colleagues
had been paid in adverting to their having been de-
yaltiheevyenhtasd, beenhe
certainlyr
scribed as the " drags" of the government of which
they were members ; but he might remark, that pos-
d"iclirfageels,
to the
commission, that if he assented to it, the question a
appropriation of the revenues of the church to secular
"w t
th (Loud
regardslaugho t etrb• )3
purposes was settled (Cheers), and when he asked himself
if he could assent to such a proposition, his answer wade
no. He thought that the principle of ini ury into th
state of the population of parishes, to ascertiLn the number
of resident protestants therein as compared with the ifour
ber of catholics, if it meant anything, must mean 5° ;
mei
thing that had a direct tendency to effect an alteration (d,'
the principle on which the church establishment eliiet„eot.
( Hear, hear.) His noble friend , stated that lie did-
contemplate the poss.bility of any great change as the re"..
suit of appointing the commission ; but it was because
(the Earl of itipon) behaved that the effect of the (Or
mission must be to aUer the footin on which the es"'
bbushed church stood, that he could g not concur in that pre;
liminary step. The universality of the established chu!.'
was its very essence. Its great principle was its diffusi°f.
throughout the country .;',and if they set up the prinocipl,".
that any portion of the funds that were nee, scary
maintenance was to be withdrawn from it, or that the
tree",.
venues of the church in a particular parish were to.b
_iar
gulated by the number of the protestant popolation in tl
-hich abatt.
parish, then they destroyed the principle on w had
the established church existed. His noble friend_ fl,
_.
quoted from the peech of a distinguished member of
the
house (Sir R. Peel), who had said that he admitted a s'''.
ccssity might arise for appropriating the revenues
toof
the
church, but he would apply them esPecialblYdy differ
purposes of the church. He never heard anY 0,._
mid
from that opinion. It was most safe, desirame, y:.e
legitimate, being quite consistent with every princiotlo
that could be sanctioned by any man who desired '
,
maintain the established church ; but the momen
they departed from that to substitute for it the num'
ber that the Protestant population of a parish bore to a given
proportion of those who did not belong to the church, s°
far from doing that which was calculated to tranquillize
the people, for whose benefit it was said that these changes
were to be made, they gave to both parties an invitation to
be divided. ( Hear, hear.) He could suppose it possible
that under such circumstances some' Protestant landlord,
might, with a view to insure means for the maintenance of
the church in their neighbourhoods, add the required nuov
ber to their Protestant tenantry. He did not say that
they would be justified in so doing ; but if the principle to
which he had been objecting were adopted, it would op if
rate as an invitation to such practices. (Hear.) Then, o
the Protestants might so act, what might not be the c
of the party opposed to them ? They knew what dishf
agitation was (Hear, hear), and they knew the system of
intimidation that might be resorted to, for the purpose
0_
driving people out from one part of the country Ys a, of
ther. They knew full well the use that had beenfloo'
the de-
the pike, the pistol, and the torch, and the rest 0
•ii Ireland ,
vilish machinery which the demons of agitation' eakingof
had not scrupled to employ. He was not now sp
0,,
_,,et_,
imaginary things—of what only might be, but
1110 what"
imaginary
held been done. Wherein, then, was the
,foeuid
be found, that the effect of the proposed chang' beg,' - -
be to tranquillize the Irish people ? f Ileaar,
staple.
hear.) He believed that the idea of
his
bing found to exist would turn out to he chimerical;
that the
noble friend, at all events, thought itpossible
tnat he did not
amount would be very small, and he statedhurch. fie would
contemplate applying it to the Catholic c
not be so
ask, how were they to be satisfied that it would
the established
applied ? (Hear, hear. ) To whom was
Catholics ? aod
courch a grievance but to the Roman
osed? WB9
would they be satisfied with what was
part
eouritrY
the
there an apostle of agitation in any part of
ii,_,,inir
1 who would not discover ten thousand reasons forcer a'', the
1 fresh demands? ( Hear, hear. ) If it were neces.):l
of
m, ans might be found of advancing education, ore e!,.
supporting the Catholic clergy themselves, without toad.
ing for such purposes the means of the established churc
Grants for education had been already made ; and VJ%
conclude that Parliament would not be ready to inereas°
those grants, if what had been advanced proved to be in--
sufficient? He now came to ano her view of the subject,'
lie;had a very strong objection to the principle of doieS"
anything that would have so direct an effect against 0
essential principle of the established church. The objec-
tion to which he was now alluding was founded on the6
compact of the union. ( Hear.) That compact was of
particular kind, and was made under peculiar circuit:l.
stances. The Protestant Parliament in Ireland Ns•s_
party to it ; and he should like to know wh-ther, if that
hdire t t
Protestant Parliament of Ireland had been told t
reat a
tan
g
expiration of a given number of years, at no
ineiples that
of time, the Parliament would sanction
Prsition of less.
would place the church of Ireland in
.a IT
Would they
they have passed that union.
security, would
they would have
not have been mad to do so, knowing
as
to inevi-
Id thereby doom themselves .
knovvn, that they would
the discussions on the subject
table destruction ? In all
in disions on
of the Roman Catholic question
Gratalltthe an, Mr.cuss Plunket,
all the bills introduced by
the noble duke on the
and others, down even to that of
of the etablished
other sine of the house, the maintenance
.ri ncipas I basis, on
a
church inviolate was laid down act of ustice and con-
which was to be granted the great act o
rj
P otestants, whose
cession. And would they say to the
force they
whose ts
fears they endeavoured thus to allay, and
Protestan
laboured thus to disarm—would they tell those
e_
.1.0.
f the advantag s Ftio
now, that they were to be deprived o
t the securi .
cured to them to soothe their fears and tha,,s,otitingt as it
they demanded were to be broken down? '''
la necessity olf'
appeared to him, but the most Tax
t)- am"htat necessity wer.e
.
justify the course proposed; and unless t n
,id. ne felt
proved to exist, he must withhold his c°
indifference to
that it was
those whom h doe
had the mi a masfortter
tune tof pero oPP°'fect .
e on this ques,
it would be $
tion, whether he consented to it or not ;
hi s or to the
matter of indifference, whether to their lords Pe_
litioue to
public at large ; but having felt it his duty
lie
had
ander
act, as long as in honour and conscience
.11. :ad not the
the guidance of his noble friend—whom n'
hot from wh4:l,
pleasure to rank among his earlier friends, , kindness an
undoubtedly he had received many acts of , ; 1
ai, without ;
confidence, and of whom he could not spe of duty and
feeling of reverence—nothing but a feeling , He hade
conscience had at last induced him to withdrass •
ted it,
h
done his duty ; and, though he deeply regret
could not repent of it. ( Cheers.)
.ole view °f
The Earl of ABERDEEN rose with the 5 isle earl
(Greys),complining of a isrepresenation b the
nights
ago WI
of the sentiments expressed ay few nigh The
a right honourable friend of his in the other hoiedeelifered
noble lord had deprecated the quoting of' speeehesed with 8
in the other house, yet had come down prePakro the ll'
manuscript quotation from one. He would ta 1, whiell
berty of tendering a little advice to the noble ear contelt•
was, when he next quoted a speech to look to t
glair,
The statement of the noble earl, as regarded theaglair, that
not only was inaccurate, but he neglected to e P .4, to A
were in rei J Ito
the observations of his right hon. friend _
c.
.., `v
he
made by the Chancellor of the DiTC!,, (Ittioe'appro-,
said he thought that•the legislature hadua:
el; gn:pu,poss el
priate the surplus revenues of the ,
fight
I rg lion.. friell',
moral and religious ixistruction, were vague
andinde,
- "that there
explain what he meant'
The Sir R. Peel) replied,
noble lord
ex'
finite terms. Let the
t was necessary to nave an h .
The time had come when it
Did the noble lord mi.4o'
d tha'''
planation on the subjeacr,d he (Sir R. Peel) aske ,f
religious instruction—
id unequivocally—to claim to him
question distinctly
alossessions of the .Protestant Chur
of
the right out of the p
fake'
grants for the disserninal b,,
in Ireland to foae
v. Roman Catholic Church? 430rp5
the tenets of thereligious' Roman
instruction he (Lordii,7„ the
moral and religious ' instruction bag.—peel)
meant moral andilof, (Si' .• o
of the Church England, he k onositao t
doctrines
did not know that he should object to such
tension
' t of fact, it would be merely theseblishni ent.
as, in pow .
connection with the vious
religious instruction in . 3of re 6
.._ .
His anxious wish was to extend the blessing...,__, charco:
instruction in conformity with the doctrines of ,"`
right °listo
but if the noble lord intended to claim thTerjand, .e rat
provide the Roman Catholic religion "
infoods of thould at
provide for its maintenance out of thee-
peel) `bona
such
testant established church, he ( Sir ll'bect to a,seu oted by
once state, that he never could be indl,e speech clsuhie-i
1 the
a proposition." Even the passage of the
aoted
the noble lord did not authorise t" eble lord. theenmeqao
to
noble lord had put upon it. 'The It He did n°t,,,,t, to any
the passage at length, as follows :--- „la cos- - it
. s he would
assert that under no circumstances he church,mittee
change in the actual state of
1 rr:lleyethat wheri.a Om li, to
must be in the recollection °-. - 11 said +hat he was re clog'
was moved for, two xearsoraguio
'easure which had for itg,,,ist
consider any Pr°P"'siati°,nahuses or defects that-might eras
ject the removal of "'He then stated that the tiro,e.,eet
in the establislim
'Xucst review the state of the establiso,jto
when theYl.s lie for one moment, never iiiteou'iary
Come 1 Igo
t ellri
in Irelam • : ,
position, that any propoiti nof the pe . .
assent to the p ebie of
be devoted h
, ns.of the establishment must toot_er. ~„a r
but whether there might not:be a different distribut;,ette
the funtii: of the establishment, with the view to the ' 0 a
: supplying..the spiritual wants of the people. 11_,,,ee'essee
tg '
member of the church, was ready to consider; an) ' 400
, ,ur
: calculated to prorpote.a more: lleneficial, or auvv ne°-
,
distribution of the funds of the church ; but "

Would consent to the alienation of them to purposes not
connected with the church." Again, the right hon. gentle-
Man having said that he should oppose the original motion,
thus proceeds :—" In justice to himself it was also neces-
'a y, in an wer to the declaration of the noble lord that it
was tLe.intention of his Majesty's Government to propose
the appointment of a commission to inquire into the state
of the chu:ch in Irela.-4, and to prevent its being sup-
Posed that by giving his vote he appeared to sanction the
appointment of su h a commission, distinctly:to declare
that he altogether disapproved of the appointment of
such a comm:sion." Thus the drift of the speech of his
right hon. friend was evidently that in the event of an ap-
Proprit tion of the revenues of the church, they should be
applied strictly to the purposes of the church ; this prin-
ciple ran through the speech from the beginning to the
M. He had risen on the present occasion, thinking it
(Ile to their lordships and the country, and of considerable
'Prortance, that the speech of his right hon. friend should
htt be misunderstood.
Earl G ltE V said, that there was not much difference
after all betwe, n himself and the noble lord. All he meant
to say was, that the principle of dealing with the church
o,)erty for the purpose of a different appropriation from
the present was asserted in that speech to which the noble
lord and himself had alluded.
he Earl of ELDON, in a very feeble voice, said that
ago and infirmities prevented him from debating this ques-
t
41; but he would leave this as a legacy to their lordships
ng whatever he had of professional reputation to its
turacy—that the state had not the right to appropriate
t e revenues of church.
_

Thy Duke of ttICHMOND said, that after the speech
°I ii s noble friend in this house, and of his right hon.
fri lid the late Secretary for the Colonies, and of the
lionow,ble baronet in the other house, he
eo 'd not cons,der it necessary for him to go into the
b ec at any length ; but agreeing with his noble
tr.e.nt in his proposit.on, that public men had no right. to
'l' it office without affording some explanation of the cir-
'tuns ances, he thought it his duty to say why he had se-
kined himself from the administration. It was with the
deepest regret that he felt himself compelled by a paramount
tense of public duty to sever himself -from those colleagues
with whom he had acted for so long a period on terms of
the greatest cordiality—from colleagues with whom he
'greed in the great and liberal measures which had been
,cLeir arried, in hia opinion; fortunately for the country, by
exerti,ns to a successful conclusion: ( Hear, hear. )
As regarded the point in difference, he would appeal to
their lordships whether he had ever disgraced his opinion?
(Cheers. ) 1 hey would do him the justice to recollect that
this was not the first occasion on which he had avow& d
luring the debate on the Catholic question he invariably
stated that one of the greatest objections which he' enter-
tained to the passing of that measure, called a measure of
'on cession, was, that it would increase the demands of the
agitators of Ireland. He then stated to their lordships
that they appeared to wish to gain one step, but what they
r,eally required was to displace the Protestant clergy of
Ireland, by establishing there the Roman Catholic reli-
Pn°o• These were his opinions then ; and notwithstand-
g the confidence he felt in the honesty and just
Intentions of his noble friend at the head t f the
Government—for he believed that no man in this country
as more anxious than he was to protect the church
establishment- -et he differed from him in this : he
thought
that the appropriation of the revenues of the
bViureh to secular purposes was wrong in principle. (Hear,
ear.) He maintained that if it were once admitted, the
lurch would not long be able to stand where it did now.
1f they descended from this position, they knew not to
What point they might be hurried. If they conceded to
she agitators of Ireland now, that the state had the right to
Ppropriate the church property to secular purposes, they
Would go further, and it would end with the Catholic
urch being the established church in Ireland. Let them
look to what would be the consequences. He was one of
those who were disposed to think that the Catholic ministers
to be paid by the state. He knew that several noble
IJi-ds opposite did not agree with him in that opinion, but
oped. they would give him credit for maintaining it con-
,s9,,,ientiously. :suppose the country became involved in con-
siderable diffi ty andcul distress, and it was necessary to raise
additional taxes, it might be said, " You have established
precedent ; instead of imposing fresh taxes, take the
La. oney you want from the revenues of the established
e,ierch, and appropriate it as you will to secular purposes."
tie had gone to greater length than he intended on this
question when he rose ; but he trusted that he might be
perinitted to add a few words, inasmuch as he should
hot
like to have his opinion on these important matters
isconstrued. No man would go further than he was
Prepared to go in the removal of every abuse in the church
Ziatiltshment in Ireland as well as in England, but then
e inust enter his protest against an alienation of the
rch property. (Cheers.) He was quite disposed to
7:3 into an inquiry as to the abuses with a view to
'Pair and restore, but not to overthrow and destroy,
With a view to amend those defects which had crept
atva 4; in the course of time, but his only object would be, thatH
es4ending the influence and usefulness of protestantism:
wong 'avowed
hi thus much he trusted their lordships
to ';' allow m to say, and, would believe, that he came
84,the determination of leaving his colleagues from a deep
b
ase of public duty, and that he did not, on that occasion,
dduce 831 Y feeling having reference to himself alone to
him to quit the service of his Sovereign, from
h__,gelia, on every occasion, and under all circumstances, he
117-o received every mark of kindness and attention. Nor
the he.have quitted his noble friend from any fear of
- e responsibility, and still less from any apprehension of
endering himself unpopular. He was well aware that the
„.._
rse he had taken was much more likely to render him
hPopular throughout the country than remaining, under
ise circumstances, in the administration. He, at least,
`Pd that in retiring from his noble frien !, his two
claim right
hone friends and himself had not forfeited their to
iergood opinions of. their lordships; and though they dif-
Je
ed so
he for lone trusted that he had om their late colleag
not lostues in ththeir eir pprivate
olitical
',ws,
friendship. (Hear,
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY had heard with
surprise and regret what had fallen from the noble earl.
That confidence which he had ever felt in the government
‘:1 the noble earl as to the principles on which he would act.
t7.wards the church, he must refer, mistaken as it was, to
et.e misapprehension which often occurred as to general
pressions. He hoped that the noble lord was most
hartnly attached to the Protestant Church of England ;
:had always heard that the noble lord's private character
aa quite consistent with his public professions. He enter-
warted no doubt, then, but that the noble lord wished to
(.I,c'e on as firm a foundation as he could the Protestant
di loch of Ireland ; but he, at the same time, entirely
'sagrted with the noble lord as to the measureby which
op proposed to effect that object. Taking the declaration
the noble lord with respect to the principle of the appro-
priation, of the revenues of the church to any of the pur-
Zses of the state that they might think fit, and combining
hwith the.appointment of the commission—an intention
• ed lea, he believed, was avow by the noble lord- he must
th ,that he saw nothing before him but the subversion of
ot„; Irish Protestant Church. (Cheering.) On every
sioh-asioll op which concessions had been mae in past ses-
th;tl thcy had heard from the friends of concession that
tueo„ln which to strengthen the church—to place it on
tip as-„,'"odation that it could not he shaken—was to give
ehat h."ltch as was necessary to satisfy the people. Now,
gkiri Le Must deny ; every prophecy of what they were to
tn, concession had been entirely falsified. He had
),T°sed that the measure which was brought forward last
ti;
We would be final, but it appeared that he had been en-
3. mistaken in forming any such conclusion. He,
yer, was not the only individual who had entertained
I _is~tnilaropinion, and who had, in that respect, experienced
;,Onsiderable disappointment. The noble earl had made
halstinction between the churches of England and Ireland.
le said that the circumstances in which the church of. Ire-
and placed were very different from those in which
church of England was placed. He (the Archbishop
it': Canterbury) lately admitted that there was a difference
it b
the circumstances of the two churches ; but he wished
be understood that he did not admit that there was
51iCeretice as to the footing. on which both were esta-
-14i.„"(1. ' (Hear.) They were equally the.established re.
'll of the country. A different supposition would be
etrar..
3 to the Act of Union. What was the object of
I„,at 4nion, but the security of the churrh in Ireland ? It
bets.,°l4Y on the express condition that the church should
preserved as she then existed, that the Irish Parliament
..onsented to
Ire land a merge itself in that of Great Britain, and. that
the greed to be the subject of the Joint legislation of
two Parliaments. It was, he repeatid, distinctly
do.)i .vt'd at the time of the union, that the church of Ire.
should, in all respects, be considered and treated the
Ole as that of England. Whatever might happen, he,
7to hne, would never remain a silent spectator' of the ruin
ofside e Irish church (Loud cheers from the Opposition
p • • tle house.) The noble earl had spoken of the pro-
'lPiety or making eoncessions to the spirit of the age, and
ied the present measure by that name. The concessio_n.,
need not tell their lordships,
alesty's government would be
would not stop here. His
tte compelled to- go from one
t° another, until there was nothing further left to con-
the (the Archbishop of Canterbury) thoug
he tht that
Ilia
noble earl at the head of his Majesty's government had
evening avowed, in sufficiently plain terms, the course
l'helee:ded to pursue with respect to the Irish church.
wonicirt of the measures on which Ministers had resolved
Proved that
ruin of that church ; and all past experience
with 'nal the church of England would suffer equally
teltat of Ireland. ( Hear, hear.)
ihr,as ha
mEarl of WINCHILSEA could not help reproach-
jiglooi,ifseltewli being a traitor to his country and his re-
ipol tau on antzt not raise his voice against the measure. of
,admitted he uin which the noble earl had that evening
Ireland He
1 ereecifEnitht
aptlahtieadthwainthks raegndardthtoe
tthankschurch
of their
orclships w
.iesty's government fouthe noble earl at the head of his Ma-
,°owed his intentions the candour with which he had
`ljear, hear.) He couirdegarding the church of Ireland.
not refrain from expressing his
.rn approbation of the e
jounsdtuct pursued by the noble earl
:,'"1 noble duke who had
,n;.; occasion. (Hear, hear.) addressed their lordships on
''lent of a commission for such e regarded the appoint-
ilull,equivocally expressive of 41,1erPres as had been stated
esi s which his Ma-
-tY s government had on the Irish
church. It was in

vain to deny that such a measure was only preliminary t
her spoliation and ruin. ( Hear, hear.) Let the principle
be once granted that the scat,' has the' eight to interfere
with the revenues of t.lio and clef ly them to other
than the purposes of the cstanslied rel -non, and where,
he would ask their lordship, were they to end? 11, (the
Earl of Winchilsea) had on former occasions accused the
noble earl at the head of his Majesty's government of the
intention of making Ireland a Roman Catholic country,
and certainly the present measure would justify him in re-
peating the accusation. He could prove to their lordships
that within the last few years the Protestant population
had greatly decreased in that country. In that short pe-
riod no fewer than 100,000 Protes+ants had been obliged
to quit the country in consequence of the conduct
of the Roman Catholics towards them, carrying property
with them to a considerable amount. If justice had been
done to Ireland, she would long before now have been a
Protestant country. ( Hear, hear.) The noble earl had
spoken of the necessity of yielding to the spirit of the age.
he must tell the noble earl that he himself had in a great
measure called that spirit into existence. He had indeed
raised a spirit in this country which he would never be
able to quell. In advising the present measure, the noble
earl had given counsel to his Sovereign which his Majesty
could not follow up consistently with his coronation oath.
'That oath bound the Sovereign to maintain the established
church both in • England and Ireland inviolate (Hear,
hear) ; and he trusted that his Majesty would see the
matter in its proper light. He trusted that the ruin with
which the church was threatened would call forth a mani-
festation of that spirit of attachment to the Protestant
religion which he knew to exist in the-country. He called
on the Protestants in Ireland to show that they valued
their religion. He called on them by the love they
cherished towards their country, and by. their sense of the
duty and the love they owed to God; to come boldly for-
ward and offer their resistance to this measure. What, he
would ask, would be the agony of any parent that now
heard him, if his children were to be deprived of that reli-
gion which he venerated, and in which he had brought
them up ? That was the prospect which the Protestants
of Ireland had. Their lordships were aware that there
were now two great -parties in ,this country—those who
thought that all religions should be regarded as the same
in the eye of the state, and-thOse who cared for no religion
whatever, and whO were, censequently, opposed to the
existence of the church. Against these two parties the
Protestant establishment had now to struggle, and he again
called on all its friends to come forward and rally round
her. (Hear, hear. )
The Bishop of LONDON and the Earl of HARE-
WOOD rose together. The latter, however, gave way.
The right rev, prelate commenced by observing, that in
the course of the last session of Parliament a measure. had
been introduced materially affecting the interests of the
church establishment of Ireland, and to which he was op-
posed, and indeed to some of the provisions of that mea-
sure he entertained most complete objections, but he had
been induced to give his assent to the bill, for, after a most
patient inquiry and investigation, it had appeared to him
that the passing of the bill was the only chance of saving
the Protestant church of Ireland from the dangers which
surrounded it. But even alarming as these dangers were
he must now add that nothing would have induced him to
give his assent to the measure, had it not been for the as-
surance (which was given, and which he had every reason
to believe)that the bill was.intended to be a final measure.
( Hear, hear.) When he now rose for the purpose of pro-
testing against the principle that the property cf he church
might be alienated to other purposes, he felt called upon in
justice to himself to state, that it had last session been de-
clared by the noble earl at the head of his Majesty's go-
vernment, a declaration which had been repeatedly reite-
rated in both houses of Parliament by the advocates of its
adoption, that the bill of last 'year was the measure re-
quired for settling and tranquillaing Ireland. He must
now, however, ask noble lords to see how the matter stood.
The machinery of the very bill, which had been con-
structed to effect the objects which he had already stated,
had scarcely yet been brought into operation, and before
the experiment had been tried—before the church of Ire-
land had ascertained' the effects of the measure, and the
people themselves allowed an opportunity of judging of
those effects, the whole provisions of that act were to be
virtually upset by the appointment of such a commission as
that which had led to the present discussion. (Hear, hear.)
Sufficient time had not yet been allowed for the allaying of
the excited feelings of the people to such a degree as to
give the former bill a full and fair experiment ; but, on the
contrary, by the proposed commission of inquiry, whole
parishes would be disturbed, and new agitations created.
He must remind their lordships, that during the last ses-
sion it hat been over and over again stated that abundant
information had been acquired by different commissions
which had already issued, on which to ground all the im-
portant
changes that were effected and brought about by
the bill he had referred to. lie was at a loss to conceive
the grounds which could warrant the issuing of a new
commission, except that some further encroachment was
designed. After duly weighing the terms of the commis-
sion as stated, he could not see any object for which it was :
appointed, except the taking away the property of the
church, and bringing into operation its alienation in the
worst possible of manners. ( Hear.) The commission, as
he understood it, set 'out with the dangerous principle of
perversion, that it would leave to the Protestant population
of Ireland just sufficient property for their own ecclesiasti-
cal wants, and it held out to those who professed an oppo-
site creed, that a portion of the revenues of the established
church would be transferred to the purposes of their sect.
Such a principle was alien to every fundamental principle
of any ecclesiastical establishment, and its inculcation was
at complete variance with the peace and tranquillity of
Ireland. (Hear.) He could not in satisfaction to his own
conscience remain silent on the present occasion, neither
could he, after the consent he had given to the bill of last
year, on the assurance, more than once stated, that it was
final, avoid now protesting against the course of proceeding
proposed. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of HA REWOOD was understood to say, that
he understood, from what had fal.en from the noble earl at
the head of his Majesty's government, that it was con-
templated that a portion of the church revenues should go
to the Roman Catholic church.

Earl GREY expressed his dissent.
The Earl of HARE WOOD now understood that such
was not the intention of the noble earl, but beyond that
denial the noble earl had given no specification as to the
mode in which it was contemplated to apply or appropriate
the revenues of the church. No .explanation had been
afforded as to the proposed distribution of the surplus funds
that might remain if such an allowance was made to the
Irish Protestant church as accorded with the numbers of
the professors of that faith. It was true it had been de-
nied that it was intended to give this surplus to the Roman
Catholic priesthood ; but it had 'not been denied that the
power would remain to his Majesty's government to make
whatever use or distribution of it they might please.
He believed that the same principle would also be applied
to England ; for though it was true the Roman Catholics
of England bore no comparison with the Roman Catholics
of Ireland, in respect to the Protestant population of the
respective countries, yet still there were persons in Eng-
land who objected as much as the Roman Catholics of
Ireland to the established church, aril hence it was that he
apprehended d.nger to that institution, from such a prin-
e.ple being once opened. (Hear.) Their lordships had
been told .hat the issuing of this commission was an act of
most mature deliberation. He (Earl Harewood) did not
believe one word of that statement (Laughter), and he
would give the grounds of that opinion. The noble earl op-
posite (Earl Grey) had stated that such a commission had
been recommended to him by the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land in January last. When, however, did the commis-
sion come forth, and was it after mature deliberation ?
No ! 'But on the night of Mr. Ward's motion in the other
house of
,Parliament, and the manner and period of its
proposition raised a strong suspicion, at least, that it was
put forward in a crude and premature, if not incomplete
state. (Hear,.hear,) It was painful for him to remind
their lordships that they daily saw petitions brought before
them, emanating from the people, and praying for protec-
tion to the.religious institutions of the land. Did not this
fact alone argue that the "ptitiple entertained suspicions
against those who governed this country ? (Hear, hear. )
He had heard speeehet from the noble earl opposite, and
others, in defence of the church and state, but these afforded
no proof of sincerity in the views they entertained. Would
any man who had heard or read his Majesty's speech at the
ttoahpiaentneing of the
tdh,e presentaun.diotnhebeiitr..et
eesn sacenhstsuirrocenh,l
religion
on declaring,nd
upheld,
statephe
dsa,hs
ohuiatt hba,eudhmoduoagni
main-
tained,
os maf
rseontmot
the
hhwas
ee
it:nnubmcioiissnhstiEceprhlsautriincoh.no.shtuot
appear
ssaune
aam t
00 übn
be
aoti-fisaEu com-
missionrittasaprtl: uet takestGvloeaaantil uErnde thatGREY
was surplusuod er
understood
obde
taoppolbiesdertoele.aoctlrioesrsptuhreptaosbelse?,
that the speech from the throne did not touch upon the
subject of the church, or at least had not to do with the
present question.
The Earl of HAREWOOD repeated that no mall, on
reading the King's speech, could have imagined any such
commission was intended, though the noble earl had stated
it had been recommended long before. He contended that
so far from this course of proceeding being the result of
the mature deliberationmwhiurche ohardigbineuetniudgesfcrroim pressurebed,it
another instance of a measure
without. (Hear, hear.) In making this statement, he
hhoadusneso
oofbjpecatrltioambreinntg; aobuouttha c
e eoollutirsuri oyn,bheetw n the
would submit
P
to
grineoardtedreaito
haavdoihdeaencohlleiarsiodn, ..u.Nelnucha
former occasion, about their lordships taking warning not
same
warning adopt any step that might lead to collision. The
warning had again been now repeated; but it so happened
that collision could sometimes be useful, even to the noble
earl himself. He (the Earl of Harewood) could prove
this from the noble earl himself. A few days ago a bill,
objectionable to the Government, was passed a stage by
the other house of Parliament by a large majority ; and,
in order to arrest its further. progress, the noble earl in this
house gave notice of a motion which was calculated to pro-
duce that result. After this, he would ask if their lord-
ships were to be told what measures they, might or might
not be at liberty to act upon? (Hear.) There had ever
been in this country a prevailing feeling in favour of the
church establishment, connected as that establishment
closely was with the throne itself ; that feeling had hi-

therto been backed up by the Government, and though
for want of such a support it was now left to its own re-
sources, he was satisfied the people of England did not wish
to do away with the institutions of their country. (Hear.
hear.) If a further change was desired, it ought to be ef-
fected by a measure submitted to, and disposed of, by the
Legislature, instead of resorting to the expedient of a com-
' mission, which was not only dangerous in principle, but
in effect would only create irritation, jealousy, and ill-
blood. (Hear. )
The Earl of LIMERICK made a few observations to
the house, but in so low a tone of voice as to be almost
wholly inaudible. The noble earl was understood to pro-
test against the commission of inquiry which had been is-
sued, on the ground that it was impossible the existing
state of the church could remain. It had been said that the
church could not rest as at present, and the authority upon
which the interference or change was taken was the prin-
ciple which had actuated the great General Napoleon
Bonaparte. He (the Earl of Limerick) for one would
never consent to take either weapons of offence or defence
from, such an armoury.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH, who spoke from the
cross-benches, deprecated the issuing of the commission of
inquiry. The result, as he well knew, and so indeed did
e very Irishman, would be t o raise and excite the Roman Ca-
thol.c population of every parish, peaceable and anxious for
qu,et as they might be, to the expectation of some greater
extensions of relief than would ever be realized. It was

well known that the priest was the adviser of his flock,
both in temporal and spiritual matters, and the question
whether the clergy should be
.paid would, he doubted not,
be answered by a direct allusion to the commission of in-
quiry into the revenues of the established church, and
their anticipated apprOpriation. In consequence, agita-
tion and irritation, at present in many districts allayed,
would be revived and increased. He (the Marquis of
Westmeath) would not bow to the opinions of any indivi-
dual, but he hesitated not to tell his Majesty's government
that they would be disappointed in their anticipations as to
the effect of the course they had adopted.
_ _

The Marquis of CLAN ItICARDE commenced by ob-
serving that it had been assumed by the other side
throughout the present debate, that the advice of the
commissioners would be implicitly followed by his Majesty's
Government,. whereas, as he understood it, the commission
was sent forth to acquire a knowledge of such facts - and
other information as would enable their lordships to come
to a proper judgment and decision on the question.
.( Hear, hear.) He thought, from what had been admitted
on all sides, that a prima facie case for inqu ry had been
made out. Without in the least degree bowing to the
judgment of any man, he could, from the his' ory and the
records of the country, form an opinion of his own upon
the question ; and in the first place,. he would deny that
which had been suggested—namely, that the legislature
could not appropriate the church revenues in Ire-
land from their present ecclesiastical destination. If, on
inquiry, it should be found, as he anticipated would be the
case, that the surplus revenues of the church in Ireland
only assisted in overloading the wealth of individuals, and
thereby deteriorating from the propagation of the Gospel,
what, he would ask, ought to be done with this surplus,
and could it not be more advantageous'y and more justly
applied to other purposes ? He had the authority of a right
honourable baronet (Sir Robert Peel) for a different
appropriation. That right honourable gentleman had
said, that it might well be applied to schools for reli-
gious instruction; and yet would not this be such an
appropriation as had been deprecate 1 in the course of
the present discussion? (Hear.) There were as stood
Protestants on his (the Marquis of Clanricarde's) side of
the house as on the other, and he should be asglad to see an
unity of faith established in Ireland as any man ; but the
present question was, how was the Protestant religion to
be maintained in that country ? Much had been said upon
the upholding of the Protestant religion, but as yet all the
speeches had dealt only with its temporalities. In Ire-
land no less than 930,0001. were annually expended for the
religious instruction of 800,000 Protestants to 6,500,000
of Roman Catholics, and only 14,300/. per annum were
expended for the instruction of 600,000 Presbyterians.
This statement alone showed a most Unequal disposition of
r..venue, but even the sum he had already mentioned as
appropriated to the Protestant church was not all that had
been given; upwards of 500,000/. had from time to time
since the union been granted by Parliament for building
new churches. There was another point to which he felt
bound also to call the attention of their lordships. Under'
the provisions of an ancient statute, he believed the Bth of
Henry VIII., it was provided that the clergy were bound
to maintain the several diocesan schools in the country ; but
the 14th report of the commissioners, in 1824, showed that
of all the diocesan schools only 13 were open. Would
any noble lord, then, venture to contend that such a
state of things could be permitted to continue ? The
effect of all these circumstances had been to raise a resist-
ance on the part of the people to the collection of church
temporalities, and to expose the Proteitants of Ireland to
the odium and reproaches of the rest of the people. Did
not this case alone demand that inquiry and searching into
facts which, would enable the legislature to come to a just
and proper conclusion and determination upon the case?
Again, the evidence which had been taken before both
houses of parliament showed most distinctly that the church
establishment in Ireland was mixed up with all the discon-
tent, grievances, and disorders in that country. Such, in-
deed, was the testimony of every man acquainted with Ire-
land. Whatever might be tfie result of the commission,
he (the Marquis of Clanricarde) did not doubt but that
the life-interests of the clergy would be most strictly pre-
served and maintained, and therefore a prospective Chang(
would be beneficial to that most deserving body, inasmuch
as it would remove much of the troubles and difficulties to
wh ch they were now exposed. In conclusion, he was dis-
tinctly of opinion; that the more the truth was known, the
greater benefit would be conferred upon the Irish church
establishment. The truth could only be elicited by in-
quiry, and such an inquiry would, he was satisfied, con-
duce to the happiness of the whole community. (Hear. )
'I he Bishop of EXETER said that the noble marquis
had stated that it was necessary to inquire into the facts
before acting, and that therefore the commission proposed
to be instituted was necessary. Now he would remind the
noble marquis that there was already a commission of eccle-
siastical inquiry in operation in Leland, and they heard
f om the statement of a noble and learned lord not now
present (Lord Plunket), and wjio was on that commission,
that, as regarded one province of Ireland at least, the re-
sults of that commission were likely to be exceedingly im-
portant. The noble marquis had also asserted, that he too
nevi r hard any one speak of the wealth of the church in
I.eland except as enormous.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—As compared with
that of other churches.

The Bish p of EXETER—Even thus corrected, he
could not help feeling astonished at the assertion, for he
h .d last year, through the courtesy of the other House of
Parliament, heard the leading Minister of the Crown in
that house declare, that on no subject whatever did such
gross exaggerations prevail as relative to the church 01
I -eland ( Hear, hear.) The noble lord added that he ha,.
himself shared in the prevailing error till an examination o
the facts convinced him of its groundlessness ; for that
the property belonging to that church was by no meati.
exoroitant. ( Hear, hear.) The noble marquis had also
remarked upon what he was pleased to call the violation o;
the duty imposed upon the parochial clergy of In-land 11)k
an ancient act of Parliament, with respect to provid.ng for
the education of the people. He must confess that he was
n, less astonished at this than at the former assertion of
the noble marquis, for he could hardly have supposed that
a noble lord of the acuteness and accuracy of the observa-
tion and memory of the noble marquis, could have for-
gotten' that this complaint embodied what had for som(
years been a standard grievance against the church of Ire
hod, till it. ceased to be urged, because exploded and found
to want foundation. The noble marquis had stated, an,
*-to doubt accurately, that it was by a statute of Kink
Henry VIII., that the parochial clergy of Ireland wen
:messed to the tenths, and were bound to see that a school
be .maintained in every parish, not out of their own funds
as the noble marquis supposed.
The Marquis of CI. AN RICARDII—I spoke of the
d:ocesan

The Bishop of EXETER—The object of the statute
to which he alluded was, that the parochial clergy assessed
to the tenth in Ireland should be bound to see that a school
wa3 provided for the education of the children of their pa-
rishioners ; but there was this further provision in the act,
that they should not charge more for the instruction given
in these schools than the ordinary price. This was a very
diffcrent thing from the parochial clergy of Ireland being
bound to maintain a system of education at their own cost.
Having said thus much with respect to what had fallen
from the noble marquis, he would now take the liberty of
saying a few words upon the same important subject now
under discussion ; he meant the principle embodied in the
commission which his Majesty's ministers had advised the
King to issue. That commission was avowedly issued by
the noble earl at the head of the government, on the prin-
c pie that the property of the church was held by a different
tenure from other property (Hear) ; not only so, but that
it might be dealt with by parliament on very different
grounds from other property ; that it might be assailed in
eases and under circumstances not justifying the assailing
f private property. To be sure the noble lord did not
deliver this as his deduction of right, but as the deduction
of the spirit of the times. Now whatever that might be,
they knew, not only from the professions of the noble earl,
eoomuch thratthe whateverehh theof i spirit
now
toldthem,
dofwas the
t toi mbe es

Earl GREY—_I said no such thing.
The Bishop EXETER—He did not pretend to quote
the precise words of the noble earl, but that was the sense
of his argument ; if be were wrong, the noble earl
could correct him in due season. He contended that the
argument of the noble earl was, that all legislators, but
particularly that house, should be prepared to act up to the
• •
spirit of the times, and that it was in consequence of the
spirit of the times that he had advised the issuing of the
commission which was to be laid upon their lordships table.
Th s commission was to ascertain, among other things, the
amours raic' to n of thethe
principlewealthof
otfhethcohuhrochhleofeaLr,elwanhdat,
whatever
rd ac-
ea
spirit of the times
_should deem sufficient, was to be the

measure of its supply. He should not occupy their ford-
ships' a.tention further at that late hour of the night b, a
discussion of this paint in language of his own, but would
borrow that of a noble and learned lord whos absence he
had already regretted, and who, he should have thought,
it would have been particillarl`e desiralll? to consult on a
question relating to the church o irelaid, he meant the
Chancellor of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He held M his
hand a record of what was uttered by the noble and learned
lord on an occasion exactly similar to that under the con-
sideration of the other house of parliament a few nights
ago ; for they must recollect, -that as there was nothing
new under the sun, so even the vagaries of liberalism were
not permitted to be distinguished by much novelty—the
novelty was only in the way in which these vagaries were
received. (Hear, hear.) Ten years ago an exactly si-
milar motion was made in the House of Commons as was
made the other night, and on that occasion the noble and
learned Lord High Chancellor of Ireland, then Attorney-
General for Ireland, said—" That the property of the
church might not be interfered with as well as other pro-
perty in the state, in a case of public necessity, he would
not assert." Perhaps the noble earl thought that a case
of public necessity had arrived ; but let him and the house
listen to what the noble and learned Chancellor proceeded
to say_." But it ought to be observed that on the same
principle the property of every man in the kingdom was
equally liable. He maintained that the property of the
church was as sacred as any other. if they began with
the church, let the landholder look to himself," (Hear. )
Ile really thought that these words, as might have been
expected from words coming from such high authority,
deserved the serious attention of all the noble persons
around him, and not least, certainly, the attention
of the noble persons who were members of his Majesty's
government, and as such had advised the issuing of
this Commission. Perhaps he should be forgiven if
he . took the libeity of saying, that it was particularly
worthy of the attention of the noble marquis at the head of
his Nlajesty's councils in Ireland, from his very great pos-
sessions—and greater they could not be than he would
know well how to use for the purposes of usefulness to his
country, and honour to himself—must weigh down in
amount the whole clerical income of some of the dioceses
in the country from which his wealth arose. He would
do well to take the warning given him by the noble and
learned Lord Chancellor of Ireland in the speech he had
just quoted. He need not remind the noble marquis, or
their lordships, that the great estates which the noble mar-
quis held, he held under the Act of Settlement of Property'
in Ireland. That Act of Settlement was founded upon the
declaration of Charles IL—a declaration which did him
honour, and which deserved to be borne in mind by every
man who, by the w.ll of God, sat upon the throne he so
unworthily filled—that he owed it as a testimony of hum-
ble gratitude to Almighty God for restoring him and his
people to the happiness of the established and ancient mo-
narchy of this country, at a time when, to all human ob-
servation, such a restoration was hopeless. Therefore it
was that he endowed not only the noble marquis, but the
church ; further, being determined to carry into effect the
pious directions of his murdered father, which were to in-
crease
the income of the church in Ireland. " These last
endowments," continued the rev. prelate, "he placed
upon the altars of the King of Kings. Touch them if
you will—touch them if you dare—and may God not
visit upon you his curse for the sacrilege. The
noble earl at the head of the government has made
one appeal to your lordships, which I had hoped would
have been answered by some noble lord on the other side
of the house ; but as it has not been answered, I trust I
shall be forgiven if I presume to attempt it." The noble 1
earl said that if this commission had not been issued, the
hreissoAlulatiioens:s present
in the House of Commons would have
been carried. (Hear, hear, hear.) And then he said that
t haveministers m
formeds t have; resigned;an a idr
address
tao new
administration mustesen
the I
Crown, framed upon Mr. Ward's resolution, would have
been presented; and what, asked the noble earl, would
have been the answer such an administration would have
undertaken to advise the Crown to give? Now let us see
what that address would have been? It must have been
founded on the motion of the hon. gentleman, as we find
it in the votes of the House of Commons, on the table—
[The right rev. prelate here read the resolution. ]—lt is
obvious that any answer must not only have confirmed this
address, but have called upon his Majesty to carry it into
effect. Then comes the question, what. answer any noble
lord opposite would have advised his Majesty to make ? I
cannot presume, my lords, myself in the positron of those
who may be expected, under any circumstances, to be
called to his Majesty's counsels; but this I will say, that
any high-minded, any truly conscientious man, would have
found no difficulty whatever in giving his answer when his
Majesty called upon him to advise him on the subject. An
honest privy councillor, one who remembered the oath
he had himself taken, would have told his Sovereign
that he had imposed upon him a most painful duty, a
duty, however, from which he could not shrink, for
the very position in which he stood before his Ma-
jesty, as his sworn councillor, compelled him to dis-
charge it. He would then have thus addressed him: " Sire'
painful, most painful, must it be to a Prince who through
his whole reign has shown but one sentiment of affection
for his people, and of regard to the wishes a el happiness
of that people as expressed to him through use House of
Commons ; painful as it must be to such a Prince to reject
any prayer coming from that House of Commons, I, as a
faithful councillor of your Majesty, mindful of my own
oath, cannot help recollecting the oath which your 3lajesty
has taken. I must tell your Majesty what I am sure you
would yourself tell me if I did not remember it, that as you
!lave sworn that you will preserve all the rights of the
clergy and of the Church of England and Ireland to the
best of your power, you must refuse to assent to the prayer
of the House of Commons." Any one of all his Majesty's
councillors, in such a case as is supposed, might, perhaps,
have added, " Some of your Majesty's councillors have
thought that your .Majesty stands in a different relation to
the oath as a legislator, and as a member of the executive
emvernment ; but we are bound not to conceal from your
Majesty, that all that nicety and subtlety, be it well-
founded or not, does not apply in the present instance ;
for your Majesty is not now called upon to assent to an act
passed by the two houses of parliament, and which will
become the law of the land on your giving it your as-
sent, in your legislative capacity, but you are applied
to, in your executive capacity, about which the
most liberal construers of oaths have never yet
raised the shadow of a shade of doubt, to do that
which is in direct violation of your oath. To the plain
meaning of that oath your Majesty is bound to your God
to adhere ; and at whatever hazard, even to your throne,
you must remember what you owe to your God." ( Hear. )
That, my lords, I would venture to say, would be the an-
swer of any one of the noble lords who sit on the other
side of the house, if called upon by his Majesty to give an
answer to such an address, founded on such a resolution.
But the House of Commons who could approach the
throne with such an address, would not be, in the language
of the law, " the Commons of England," that is, the re-
presentatives of the people of England (Hear, hear), for
he people of England are not yet prepared to laugh to
scorn the obligations of their Sovereign's oath—they are
not prepared to trample on that religion which they have
tiways considered as their comfort and happiness in this
vorld, their hope in the world to come. As to the
Tait of the age, is the noble earl so slow in marking the
changes of that spirit, as not to have observed some indi-
,esiens, within the last week, that the spirit of the age
will ere long be far different from what it was when he
tdvised his Sovereign to sign this commission ? My lords,
here has been raised a feeling of determined resolution,
in the part of the people, to meet as they ought to do the
iuble declaration of our Sovereign, which is yet sounding
n their ears, as it will be for ever impressed upon their
warts, that it is his firm determination to " maintain the
..eligion, and the rights of the Church of England and of
Ireland." (Cheers. )
The Earl of RADNOR next rose to address the house,
but the first part of his speech was very mperfectly heard
n the gallery. He was understood to remark upon the
strange mixture of ecclesiastical and poLtical denunciation
txhibited by the right reverend prelate, and to animadvert
upon, his continual appeals to religion, and in the same
breath dealing out the curses of God upon the house and
the government. The right rev. prelate had told them
that they were not, in the administration of the govern-
ment, to attend to the spirit of the age ; but if they
were to govern for the benefit of the people, they must at-
tend to the spirit of the age. The rev. prelate and friends
had acted upon that principle, for they now held a language
very different fron'i that which they held a few years back.
Bad not the house heard it admitted that there were no
abuses in the church which required removal? Had they
not
safevkyea in
r satghoe,
a
pl unraulti as abuses-
church, he would have been reprobated by every bishop in
veng r dt pluralities
venturednto denounced?
the house. (Cries of " No, no.") No one could deny
that the right rev, bench had felt themselves influenced
by the spirit of the age, and only a few evenings since they
had heard the right rev. prelate himself state that one of
the greatest abuses in the church was the existence of
pluralities. He (Lord Radnor) had read, in a pub-
lished letter of the right reverend prelate, addressed to
l ry oneCanning,a
hadhe
x
to speak
what amounted to saying, in so many
words, that he would not accuse Mr. Canning of
a
violate his coronation oath by relieving
the Catholics of their disabilities, for he would not believe
that any one could be so debased; and yet the right rev. '
prelate afterwards accepted his present situation from a
minister who did the very thing which he said it was im-
possible to suppose a man could be base enough to do.
(Laughter and cheers.) Surely, if the right rev, prelate
thus found it convenient to bow to the spirit of the times
when his oven private affairs were concerned, he should I
allow the same liberty in the administration of public affairs.
(Hear, hear.)
But the right rev. prelate said, that this '
commission involved a gross violation of the coronation oath.
The Bishop of EXETER—What I said was, that if
the King had been, in the event of the resolution proposed
to the House of Commons having been carried, advised to
comply with an address founded upon that resolution, it
would have been a violation of his Majesty's oath.
The Earl of RADNOR did not see what difference there
was between his Majesty's signing a commission of his own
mere motion, and signing it, or, taking some other equiva-
lent step, upon the receipt of an address from the House of :
Commons to that effect. But after all he could not un-

eerstancl how the step now taken could be pretended even
tc. be violation of the coronation oath. The object of
e ccinimissicin was not even to take away any property
from the church, but to inqUire into the facts of the case.
( Hear, hear, hear.) Was it irripr*r. that his Majesty
should be informed of the state of the church of Ireland?
• i
Was it improper for the head of the church to re. vue n 7
fdrinetion concerning its condition? (Hear, hear.) But that
fie ihicierStood Was the whole object of the commission. ( Cries
of " No, rick") Of course every body must feel, that if parti-
cular facts were Mticle td ap'peaas the result of the inquiry,
certain consequences rang, follow ; but the strict object
of the commission was to make inquiry: Ho ippretendetl
that the spirit of the coronation oath was, thit the King
should support the Protestant establishment to the Uttnosi
of his power; and if the result of the inquiry to be insti-
tuted was, that the Protestant establishment was injured
by the present state of things, he could not understand
how setting matters right for the benefit of the church could
be construed as a violation of the coronation oath. All this,
however, was matter of subseqttenf. consideration ; for it
was not all before the house at present. 'The right rev,
prelate had told them that their own property would be en-
dangered if that of the church was touched. Now he
(Lord Radnor) could not admit that the property of the
church and of individuals stood upon the same footing. The
property of the church was given in trust, for the perform-
ance of a particular trust for the benefit of the whole king-
dom : whereas that of individuals was theirs by the law,
to be engaged by them for their own benefit in every way
not prohibited by the law. But it was a strange argument
to address to noble and ingenuous persons that they must
not touch the property of the church because their own might
be made to suffer in a like manner. Now, no one wished
to touch the property of the church except for the benefit
of the country ; so that the argument came to this—that
if their lordships suffered the property of the church to be
touched for. the benefit of the country, their own might
also be called upon for the benefit of the country, and that
they were bound to resist. He could not suppose, how.
ever, that any man would be found bold enough to say, that
if ie salvation of the country required it, his property
ought not to be called upon to make any sacrifice.
The Bishop of EXETER begged to say a word in ex-
planation. The noble earl had represented him as dealing
oat imprecations on their lordships. He did no such
t ing. He specially expressed his humble wish that those
imprecations which might seem to be dealt out against
what he considered a great sin, would not fall upon their
lordships. The noble earl had also said, that in his (the
Bishops) letters to Mr. Canning, he had said that the
King could not assent to a measure giving relief to the
Roman Catholics, without violating the coronation oath.
Now he never had said, he never had written, he never
had thought any such thing, and he defied the noble earl,
at any time or occasion, to justify his reproach. (Hear)
he Earl of RADNOR explained that what he said was,
that the right reverend prelate, in his letter to Mr. Can-
ning, said that he did not conceive it possible for any
minister to do anything so base and disgraceful as to advise
the King to violate his coronation oath by relieving the
Catholics.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE fully concurred in the
sentiments that had been expressed by his noble friend at
the head of the Government, and was anxious distinctly
ti state the grounds on which he had not withheld his con-
currence in the commission which his Majesty had been
advised to issue. It was admitted on all hands, in that
house at least, that he had nothing to retract. It could
not be forgotten, too, that an address had been presented
to the throne, expressing a determination to uphold the
institutions of the country, and to pass no enactment that
should tend to injure them. In the spirit of that dddress
he fully concurred, and it was in the same spirit that he
had acquiesced in the issuing of this commission, the ob-
ject of which (though frequently stated before, it had been
as frequently forgotten in the course of the present debate)
was to inquire into facts, and not to report opinions.
( Hear, hear.) He believed the statements of the wealth
of the Irish church had been much exaggerated, but this
inquiry would not only set at rest these doubts, but would
be direqed as to the manner in which the duties of the
church were performed, and what duties were actually re-
quired to be performed. The noble earl opposite (the
Earl of Wicklow) had assumed that the whole object of the
commission-was to ascertain the proportion which the
different religious sects in Ireland bore one to another,
and to frame the church establishment in that
country in accordance to that proportion. He
(the Marquis of Lansdowne), however, begged to say, that
in common with the noble earl, and also in common with
his noble friend on the cross-bench (the Duke of Rich-
mond, we believe), the loss of whose assistance the govern-
ment had so much cause to regret, he protested against the
adoption of any such principle. In his judgment, nothing
cou.d be more mischievous than to attempt the arrange-
ment of the church establishment upon such a principle.
While, however, he rejected the solitary principle in itself,
yet he thought hat no noble lord would contend that it
ought not to be made a component part to be considered in
any contemplated arrangement. He considered that he
took the best possible care of the church of Ireland when
he saw that the services of its ministers and its revenues
were applied to the objects for which they were properly
intended. He believed that it would have been most for-
tunate for the church of Ireland and for Protestantism in
that country, if, not fifty but if thirty years ago, a com-
mission such as that in question had teen issued, and an
improved application of the funds had taken place in con-
sequence. In making these observations ho begged to
be understood as altogether excluding the idea of
the formation of any other establishment, at the
expense of the church of England. If there should
appear to be a surplus, he only contemplated its appropri-
ation to pious and charitable purposes connected with
the established church. The great object proposed by the
commission was to Obtain facts and lay them before par-
liament for its consideration, and unless it should happen
that they doubted the authority of the commissioners they
would be bound to rely on these facts. If they showed
that there was a surplus after supplying amply the spiritual
wants of the people, he considered that surplus would be
at the disposal of the state, for such purposes as he had
intimated. He was only anxious that the subject should
be fairly brought before their lordships, and should receive
due consideration, and he hoped they would not be de-
terred by any idle apprehensions from taking the matter
into their own hands, which would insure it more calm
and more beneficial consideration than it could have in any
other quarter.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said that certainly the
noble marquis was difficult to be satisfied in questions of
inquiry. No one subject had ever been more fully in-
quired into than that upon which the noble marquis was
so solicitous for additional information. At that moment
were there ecclesiastical commissioners appointed to in-
quire into the affairs and circumstances of every pa-
rish, and the emoluments of every living in Ireland. Com-
missioners had been before engaged in inquiring into
all the circumstances attending the population of
Ireland, and the state of society there. (Hear.) So that
all things respecting the population and the state of society
in Ireland ought, or at least might be better known to the
noble marquis than the circumstances of the population iii
England, or indeed, he might say, in the metropolis.
What then was the object of the measure? Surely it rnus,
be something more than the mere attainment of superfluous
knowledge ? The noble earl who commenced the discus-
sion had found fault with his noble friend because he hat,
brought the question forward. He considered that hi,
noble friend was not alone perfectly justified, but that ht
would have been wanting in his duty it he had not brough
it forward. His noble friend, as a representative Irish
peer, was a representative of the Irish people in their lord-
ships' house, and therefore was it his especial duty to cal
for an explanation of a measure so materially affecting th.
condition of the people, and the more particularly afte,
what had been put forth in another house. The noble
earl opposite had said that the measure contemplated b‘
Government was in reality very d.fferent from that
which it was represented to be, and he observed that his
(the Duke of Wellington's) noble frieLd ought rather
to have moved an address to the Crown to remove tht
present Ministers from their offices, and while doing this,
the noble earl adverted to the spirit of the time, anti
rather appeared to threaten the house with the spirit of the
time. ( llear, hear.) Their lordships had heard a grea
deal of the. spirit of the time. No man had a greater de-
ference for that which really was the spirit of the time
than he had himself, but why, he asked, should the noble
earl suppose that his noble friend had no regard to the
spirit of the time, because he felt it his duty to call upon
him for some account of a transaction which certainly
wore a very strange aspect ? (Hear, hear.) The noble
lord had given an account of the commission—his owl.
account. It was not the same with that given by a nobl.
lord representing the government in another place. ( Hear,
hear.) Still the two accounts were not inconsistent. 11,
must, however, examine the matter further. The noble
lord who spoke in the other house stated that this commis.
sion was-intended to be used as the commencement of a
course of proceeding for carrying into execution the reso-
lution upon which he had moved the previous question.
He begged to read the resolution to the house,—" That tht
Protestant episcoi.al establishment in Ireland exceeds tht
spiritual wants of the Protestant population ; and that,
it being the right of the state to regulate the distributior
of church property in such manner as Parliament may
determine, it is the opinion of this house that the tem-
poral possessions of the church of Ireland, as now esta-
blished by law, ought to be reduced." And this beint
the resolution, how was the commission to work? If thn
noble earl looked rightly to the details, he would see
that the inquiries of the commission applied not. only to tin
revenues of a district and their direction, but absolutely tt
the numbers of each sect, with the view of ascertaining
by this what were their relative rights as regarded the ap-
propriation of revenue for spiritual purposes. Nor come
the noble earl plead surprise, or want of ample time ti
make himself acquainted with this measure. It was ne
yhicuhpohrtadtbbiseesnubcjoenett!mpitlabtnet,
lsoundgd
beforesudden measure
t
the u
; in fact been in contemplation for two years, and it had beet
abandoned repeatedly, in consequence of declarations (al
we understood the noble duke) of members of the govern.
sditdel'as di°ffin ccullt.
went against it. There was a letter written by a noble
lard, lately Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which had beet.
read in the other house, and in reference to this the noble
earl hai in his place declared, in the most positive terms, ,

that he never %%mid agree to the proposition which was get
forth in it.
_ .

Earl GREY, in explanation, stated that what h 3 had
said was, that if the letter contained any proposit on for
the destruction of the established Church in .trela id, he
could #ot, and he would not, agree to it. bus he had
not admitted, that the letter contained any such propo-
sition:

of well.
k
,ihitnieseedeln"l "fht-would
afterC irlDod(daiggthoiehietf Onlya
Tlee
in tErthl .iejPeti 4lstltsrhlitetnis rnigiitn:ttkicovii:lceeN:;;Prithiphcrsi
holit ec eod
acioett:oir proposition
ar tiaelrtntnaht:etit'illhellGerioe. ysso% letter,lteßelt..itt -r.
Now,irat
(hlle
etlrk,ed, he
ala hair.) They
thisT bill
heyhadto have
been
been
eeni wasformed, nae e t,
tfiet, the present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had made ano-
ther pteposition—a proposition for inquiring into the state
of the Irish eb.-iirch: He should like much to see it. He
should like to knott if it were a proposition comiccted with
the resolution moved iii the other house, and which Le had
read to their lordships, and whether it was absolutely true
stt. that
6dt
ah e
parpotpia
sss
sevi present
oenLf Lod dmHliea.
aessupket
ceedne
hatnhtde irltiad,i.aerrt(cu, odhmbpe forward
ys
thois
allow
i‘with
(hs
ti
.7
and referring to these matters :—" I recommend to you
the early consideration of such a final adjustment of the
tithes in that part of the United Kingdom as may ex-
tinguish all just causes of complaint, without injury to
the rights and property of any class of my subjects,
.or
to any institution in church and state." Well,
this the Government brought in the Irish Tithe Bill,
in which they continued the appropriation for the be-
nefit of the church of Ireland. And as to the com-
mission of inquiry which had since been issued, he be-
lieved that no idea of it had been entertased until
the difficulty had arisen on the 6th of May as to the
propriety of the appropriation of. church prorerty.
Now, when on a recent occasion the question was brought
forward in another place, the noble lord, the leader m the
House of Commons, declared that die commission was but
the first step.. Neither was it a very regular step. The
noble lord stated that the commission had been signed and
sealed on Monday last. He happened to know that the
great seal could not be put in motion without the concur-
t.en,-;~ of the Privy Seal, and knowing that the noble earl
opposite ( Ripon) had expressed his dissent to the commis-
sion, he felt a,..!tired that he would have sooner put his
hand in the fire than have facilitated its issue by affixing
the privy seal to it, so as to render it fit tor the reception
of the greet seal. The fact was the noble eats had not put
the privy seal to this commission. ( Hear, hear.) The
great objection to the commission was, that it hael been
made to proceed from the King ( Cheers), and not L'-om
either branch, or through the intervention of either brazteh,
of the legislature. (Hear, hear.) It was the King wiz,
ordered that the great seal should be pot to the commis-
sion. (Hear, hear.) But there really was no reason why
a writ of emergency should have been resorted to, and the
powers of the crown called into action. ( Hear, hear.) He
said his Majesty was not well treated when he was brought
forward on this occasion. (Cheers.) There was no emer-
gency. The government might just as well have waited
until that day (Friday) for a noble lord holding the privy
seal who would not hesitate to affix it to the document.
No point was gained by it.. Nothing had been attained by
it, excepting that which indeed was the apparent object of
the whole transaction—to carry a few votes in Parliament.
(Cheers.) He had professed always, and he did so now,
his unwillingness to pronounce a judgment as to the obli-
gations of the coronation oath, but this he decidedly would
say, that even if his Majesty were not bound with respect
to legislative proceedings, yet that his Majesty's advisers
should have paused before they recommended him to inter-
fere personally, as he had done, in a case such as the pre-
sent, one affecting the church, and this the more especially
when there was no necessity, no reason which could be
fairly and honourably urged for a writ of emergency.
( Hear, hear, hear.) He felt that it was unnecessary for
him to trouble their lordships with any thing more upon
the subject, so fully and ably had it been already handled
by his noble friend. He would conclude by protesting
against the commission of inquiry as highly.dangerous,
and by expressing his strong disapprobation of the course
which his Majesty's ministers had thought proper to pursue.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he did assure their
lordships that he had most sincerely wished, not only that
he himself should be relieved, after having sat, as he had
done, since ten o'clock in that house, but that likewise
their lordships should be relieved—he from the painful
necessity of uttering, and they from that of hearing, the
few observations which he now felt it his duty to offer upon
the subject. Some short time since he should have
boldly said that such would have been the infallible result
from the state of the discussion. Unfortunately, however,
about that period a new degree of velocity and of violence
w s given to the debate. The right rev. prelate had risen,
and he indeed had given a new impulse to the lagging debate.
The observations which that right rev. prelate had thought
it fitting to make had called up his noble friend; he had
been succeeded by the noble marquis, who was followed by
the noble duke, and now he (the Lord Chancellor) felt
himself, albeit unwillingly, compelled to trespass for a few
moments upon their lordships' time. In the speech of the
right rev. prelate there were most offensive allusions, in
which he loved to indulge ; and a most offensive introduc-
tion of the name of the Supreme Being. had most
justly excited the indignation and called down the reproof
of his noble friend. There was not in Parliament, he be-
lieved, any other peer who dealt so lavishly in allusions of
this description: others there were, too of an opposite de-
scription, equally idle—more harmless, if not less to be
condemned. He gave forth imprecations in a spirit of the
most unbridled liberality. ( Hear, and laughter.) The
noble earl and the noble duke, and others, were called up.
file cloud of error which had been already raised was ren-
dered thicker and more thick, grosser and more gross.
They had been arguing and contending, and supposing,
concluding about which they knew nothing, about which
nobody could know anything, except his Majesty's mi-
nisters. The noble earl moved for a copy of the commis-
sion. He was aware it was not an unusual course to move
for a document with the contents of which one was per-
fectly well acquainted, for the purpose of making such ob-
servations as you might deem expedient upon the ques-
tion ; but here the noble earl moved for a paper of the
contents of which he was profoundly ignorant, and yet,
nothing daunted, he made his speech upon the sub-
ject. The noble earl was most perspicacious as to the
present, most wise as to the past, though he did not ac-
tually know everything in the category of things past,
(Laughter); but as to the future—wise as he was—perspi-
cacious as he was—he begged to remind him that not even
the most perspicacious or the wisestcould divine the future,
and in the future was enwrapped all things respecting the
details of this commission. (Hear, hear.) Now the facts
were, that there was nothing in the commission of all
those formidable matters which the noble earl apprehended.
It was to be purely a statistical inquiry,—one relating
altogether to numbers and distances. Not one matter of
opinion, or doctrine, or discipline, or observation, or re-
.nark, was to be embodied in the report, was to be made
)bject of inquiry. If then, the noble lord the Chancellor
.if the Exchequer had said that the government would act
.in the report of the commissioners, what more had he said
than that government would act upon the authentic infor-
'nation which was supplied to them by trustworthy an
.:.ompetent persons ? What, then, would be the interpre-
tation of the noble lord's words but this,—that government
would feel itself bound—compelled, he might say—as any
government, even one under the leading of the noble duke,
might feel itself compelled to call upon the legislature to
adopt such measures as would appear not alone advisable,
Jut necessary, from the results of the inqu ry a:.d the facts
:licited thereby. The right rev. prelate had been pleased
to make a speech upon this subject for the noble duke,
much more concise if not so orthodox an orator as
himself. (Hear, and laughter) But for this the noble duke
I lid not appear to be properly grateful, for he began by an-
swering it, contending as he did that there had been already
_Tough, and more than enough, of inquiry with respect to
church affairs in Ireland. While introducing this, the right
rev. prelate had indulged in a multitude of imprecations,
if which his noble friend had accused him. Certainly
they were not imprecations after the ordinary fashion •
hey were obviously implied, not directly expressed; as,
or instance, as though you were to say to a man, " Much
good may it do you : ' whereas at the moment it was
notorious you desired that he might suffer all manner
of harm. (Hear, hear, hear.) So it was the re-
verend prelate said to them, " Take care you are
not committing sacrilege ; take care you are not provoking
the Almighty vengeance." As to the real facts and cir-
cumstances respecting the commission, he had only to say
hat he and his noble friend (Lord Grey) had entirely dis-
missed from their consideration all abstract points.' When
effects were brought before them, when the state of the
Irish church was fully and truly known, when it was no
longer a matter of surmise or of speculation respecting the
Protestant populatione de
nb ofet
ht
ehi
err
ieerlla.
edunduutmna fyel:odmool
afbt htstieuohrebnei
trrnfhe
hrsiaopt:mi
trtoihit
church
thev spiritual a
snr vvsideta ng.at
ihnst
verydes.
—when it was no longer a matter of doubt whether the
established church was sufficiently provided for—whether
there was a surplus or whether there was not a surplus--
Ind if a surplus, what was its amount, then would it be for
.hem to consider what steps should be taken, and what
p
riir
get s
pu
members
r ttboel
po.
pat,
drsi
roetTni
‘nsi
o.eohshnnteoi
presented
adeweleetoornuraiu I.dvdseevldlnei
spiritual
dt
iiw.roi
not
uuAlafdl
rorcmeo noblea
great object was to see if they could find in Ireland the
means of spiritual instruction for the people. That the
d%,,vashicha
Protestant,
estawnz
andb,ooo friendparish ofinhislrehlaand
in
200/. a year—was inhabitants, not- one of whom
yet a considerable sum—some
paid for supporting that which
the petitioners described as a nonentity. Now who, he
asked, would have the audacity to state that if they were to
entertain the proposition of providing for the spiritual wants
of a people, they should not consider the numbers ?
Suppose that there were no Protestants at all in 'lreland,
would they still be bound to keep up the establiitshhi
pmreanatt.?,
If the arguments of noble lords were good for anything,
they went to that. He, however, maintained that it
was idle, that it was absurd, to say that the Legislature
sad not the right and Parliament the power to des with
c lurch property as they did, not unfrequently w
pmperty on matters of public policy. de contended that
ooble lords laboured under a strange delusion respecting

what was called church property. They would seem to
loot upon the shurch as though it were a corporation,
and 'enjoying the rights of a corporation—the privilege of
holding separate rights in property, as was the case with
a corporation corporate or with a corporation sole—such
rights being cognizable at law. The church, however,
was no such thing. The church was merely the con-
gregation of the faithful ; it meent not a body of estetgy-
men. To talk of revenues arising, whether from tithes
or oblations or any other such source of emolument, rs
church property, meaning the property of a corporation,
was a mode of expression most fruitful of mischievous
error. If indeed persees were to talk of the clergy,
here they had bodies of men, and men enjoying the
rights and privileges of corporations—deans and chap-
ters of corporations corporate, and bi4hops and par-
sons of corporations sole. This he could understand as a
lawyer, and this was the fact. But only see how great was
the incon istency, how gross was the illusion of those per-
sons who declared it to be sacrilege to meddle with what
they wesee pleased to call church property, for the purposes
of one mode of appropriation, and yet express their ready
;assent to another. It was with them sacrilege to apply
any surplus that might exist to charitable and pious uses,
but it was no sacrilege to alter the amount distributed to
the several persons, members of the church establishment.
In other words, to distribute it equally among all the
members of the church would be no sacrilege ; while to
grant the smallest part of the revenues for any other pur-
pose, albeit a purpose recognised by the church, would be
sacrilege of the deepest dye. Why, one was as complete
an invasion of all the rights of property as the other was.
There was the noble earl ( Grey), the noble duke (Wel-
lington), and himself. According to these doctrines, if any
one were to deprive them .of all their respective properties,
it would be admitted to.be robbers • " but," said these in-
genicus persons, "if we take all this property and divide
it equally among you, it is no robbery at all," although the
income of the noble duke may be much greater than that
of the noble earl, and that of the noble earl very much
greater than mine, ( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He,
however, considered that it would be also robbery, dif-
fir.ng from the other only in degree, and he had no
doubt that the noble duke and the noble earl would
concur with him in that opinion. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) Ay, said some noble lords, but this inquiry c'
have only one result. The very small proportion sa Pro-
testants throughout Ireland, and the large on'imint of the
revenues received for their spiritual instruction, must be
known, and it will follow that all es,en will see that there is
a surplus W ell, then, at t`eie worst, let it be applied to
the purrees of education and charities belonging to the
est ablieeed church. If it were so, as they apprehended, he
had sio knowledge of the fact. Let them have an inquiry,
wad let them await its result. The inquiry was intended
to tie fax and impartial, in order to afford an opportunity
to the Irish church to tell its story, as well as to those who
doubted the use of that establishment as at present consti-
tuted to till their tale. There were so many opposite ac-
counts--one man maintaining there would be a great sur-
plus, another a moderate surplus, while a third declared
there would be atone at all—that some inquiry was abso-
lutely necessary. But supposing there was a surplus--he
was only arguing the matter hypothetically-S-if there was a
surplus, as had bcen most justly and fitly said, it should
first of all, if not exclusively, be applied to the purposes
of religious and moral education on the principles of the
established church. The source from which the fund
came naturally indicated the objects to which it should
be applied. (Hear, hear.) He was as great an advo-
cate as any one for equal instruction to all on the same
level, without respect of condition or creed ; but when a
fund originally belonged to the established church was to
be directed to the purposes of education, it was hat fair
that it should first of all, if not exclusively, be appropriated
to that object within the bounds of the Protestant church
itself. As to the Catholic church having one single frac-
tion of a farthing of the fund, no noble lord who sat on
that side of toe house, no not even the noble earl himself
who had spoken so warmly on the subject ( Winchilsea),
would more strenuously o'.kesse such a proposition than he
(the Lord Chancellor , would, if such a proposition could
for a moment be 'eanceived. (Hear, hear.) A reference
had been made to certain great authorities—among others
to Dr. F'S:ley—on the question of church establishments.
That celebrated divine and ethical philosopher had main-
tained the doctrine, and argued it with his usual force and
homely vigour of understanding, in which, if ever equalled,
be certainly had never been surpassed, that an established
church was necessary as contradistinguished from the
voluntary system ' • but he added this qualification—the
established church ought to be the religion of the great
majority of the people. Indeed, he went so far as to say,
spe,culatively no doubt, and following his principle to rather
an excess, that when the religion changed the established
church ought to change too, forgetting ten thousand cir-
euinsta .ces which should modify the proposition, and to
which he had not adverted. He (Archdeacon Paley) was
not the only authority upon that point ; Bishop Warbur-
ton held the same opinion. But he (the Lord Chancellor)
disclaimed the doctrine ; at all events that was not the mo-
ment to moot it ' - but this he would say, that no greater
curse could befall the people of Ireland, no greater danger
could arise to the liberties of Ireland and England, than
any thing which would tend to install the Catholic as the
established religion of that country. (Hear, hear.) Liberty
would not be safe, and, in his opinion as a Protestant, reli-
gion in such a case would be no better off than liberty.
(Hear, hear.) He hoped he had now said enough to re-
lieve hangelf and his right hon. colleagues, all of whom
agreed co the proposition, among whom there existed not
tie slightest shadow of a:difference of opinion on the point
(H ar, hear), relieve them, he said, from any suspicion,
V suspicion could still lurk after the declarations made by
his noble friends on the opposite benches, that any notion
of an attempt towards establishing the Catholic church had
even for a single moment entered their imaginations.
f Hear.) He would go further : he did not think the en-
lightened and liberal Catholics themselves were at all fa-
vourable to their religion being established as a political
church. They would object to it as strongly on religious
principles as any could be found to object to it on political
grounds. He had been sorry to hear during the debate
something like an attempt to sound a religions alarm—
a religious outcry in the country, as if that were the time
to make such an unholy, impolitic, pernicious, and, only
on the lips of fanatics themselves, honest appeal to the
religious prejudices and party zeal of the people. He re-
ferred to a noble earl ( Whinchilsea, as we understood),
who declared that by agitation they had lost much, and
therefore they might hope by agitation to get something
back. The right rev. prelate, too (the Bishop of Exeter)
seemel disposed to join in the new firm of politico-eccle-
siastical agitation. But he (the Lord Chancellor) had no
great apprehension as to the result. In the first place, to
agitats well had required in other instances a Very different
capital from that which this new pious firm had established.
Honesty might have a great deal to do, he had no doubt it
had, in the signal success which had attended agitation in
Ireland (A laugh); but if honesty, however great, had been
the only capital applied, sure he was its "tents" would have
been much less considerable. (Much laughter and cheer-
ing.) He was therefore comfo ted by the hope that if they
p msisted in carrying their threat into active execution, their
f Laure, owing to the good sense of the people of England
a id Ireland, would be as signal and complete as it deserved
(Hear, hear), and a defeat more signal. and more complete
than it deserved he was not possessed of any language strong
en )ugh to describe. ( Hear, hear.) They were about to
lay the commission on the table, and then it should be car-
ried into effect honestly, fairly, impartially, without flinch-
ing as without violence, neither leaving undone nor over-
done, men of moderate though firm, of honest yet con-
ciliatory temper and habits, having been selected for the
task ; and when that task should be performed, when their
report was produced, it would remain for Government to
propound, and for Parliament to determine, the course
which should be pursued. No one felt more deeply than
he ( the Lord Chancellor) did the loss of honest, honour-
able, most able, and useful colleagues, and no one could
ever hail with more heartfelt satisfaction the passing away
of that sload which had temporarily obscured, but without
breaking, the relations that had cemented and held toge-
ther the members of his Majesty's Administration. ( Hear,
hear.) The noble and learned lord then referred to the
date of the commission, and accounted for its not having
yeeeived the Privy Seal on Monday, from the fact that the
noble earl ( Ripon) had not till yesterday left the service
of the Crown. With that exception, however, it had
been completed on Monday, when it was first announced
in the other house of Parliament. But a right re-
verend prelate had recommended the Sovereign in such
an emergency to refuse signing the commission, and,
rejecting the all but unanimous oninion of the House of
Commons, to turn them back on their constituents. He
( the Lord Chancellor) was surprised that any friend of
the Irish church could wish its revenues exposed to the
peril of a religious outcry raised by a minister against the
representatives of the people, and by advising his Sovereign
to refuse acceding to the all but unanimous prayer of
Parliament. If he had been a friend to all the abuses of
the Irish church, as he was a friend to its usefulness and
perpeunty, and the. efore an enemy to those abuses, and a
determined friend to their extirpation—if he was as
friendly to sll such as he was hostile, he would say God
forbid he should ever live to behold, or the establishment
should ever see the day when so reckless, so desperate a
course as a right rev. prelate recommended should be adopt-
ed by a minister of the crown. (Hear. )
After a few words from the Duke of CUMBERLAND and
the Duke of RICHMOND, in explanation across the table,
and which we could not hear, owing to the tone in which
they spo .e, and the noise occasioned by the withdrawal of
pee s and strangers from the house, the motion was put I
and carried nernine contradicente.

Adjourned at a few minutes before twelve o'clock.

PLENIPOTENTIARY.—An accurate portrait
of Plenipo.entiary, the winner of the Derby and
Epsom, will be given in Bell's Life in London and
Sporting Cironicle of Sunday, June 8. An edition
of Bell's Lite in London, price sevenpence, is pub
dished at tLe office, 169, Strand, early every Saturday
ftergoon .n time for post, by which it may be had
100 miles from 4ond n on the Sunday. For the
,I.brary, a tie of Ben's Life in London (only 52 sheets
.
annually) foetus an excellent index for reference a 3 to
te::,011 waling events.

C

,
c
'';)
-4::4.. -', 7 %.. Y: ' 113/
,/(----,-.1)) ,-;ik --, ' •-• ,f) r :,.-:si.lt. • . - : 1- . k i , it 9 ~._-. '-'- -

LONDON,
SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 7, 1834.

After the furious outcry raised against Mi-
nisters for issuing the Irish Church Property
Commission, and the talent and zeal of those
opposed to it in the Lords, we certainly ex-
pected a very different sort of discussion from
that which took place last night. There never
perhaps was any question of such importance
brought forward in either house, against which
there was less ability displayed, and less weighty
arguments adduced, than on this occasion.
Speeches there were plenty, and pro-
phecies, and imprecations, and denuncia-
tions in abundance, and loud and vehe-
ment protestations of reverence for the church
and forebodings of the evils awaiting her, but
there was little reasoning, and still lest sound
argument on the great principle on which the
commission is issued. This argues well for the
cause ; for though declamation and party zeal
may raise a prejudice against any measure, that
prejudice cannot last long in an intelligent age,
unless founded on something like reason and
justice. The Course pursued by the high
church party, bespeaks the badness of
their cause. Instead of meeting the
arguments of the other party by facts or lo-
gical inductions, they meet than with mere
assumptions, and with groundless assertions,
the only object of which is to raise one party
against another, and revive religious animosity;
not for the sake of religion, but for the tem-
poralities of the church, the golden prebends,
the rich bishoprics—in short, the mammon of
unrighteousness. Because Ministers wish to
reform the church, it is asserted their object is
to destroy it, and when they wish to apply
the surplus funds of an overgrown establish-
ment to useful purposes they are charged with
a design to appropriate the funds of another
establishment,—a Church which is strongly
fixed in the affection of the people, and for the
maintenance of which the revenues are not more
than sufficient. Any person who considers the
two questions impartially must admit that there
is no similarity between them. The object of go-
vernment is to reform and not destroy the church,
and those who charge them with insidious designs
or with intentions they dare not avow, can do
so only to serve political, and not religious pur-
poses. Earl GREY spoke out plainly on this
subject, and completely dispelled the doubt
which the withdrawal of the 147th clause of
the Irish Tithe 'Bill last year had raised in the
public mind. He disclaimed any intention to
sanction the principle of spoliation ; he wished
merely to effect a new appropriation of the reve-
nues of an establishment so enormously dispro-
portioned to its wants,and with great emphasis and
truth added, "I trust that your lordships will not
be led away by general declamation about the
destruction of the church, but that you will
consider seriously and calmly whether it is pos-
sible that the church of Ireland can be main-
tained in the state in which it stands at the pre-
sent moment, and whether it is not only the

part of true wisdom, but the bounden duty of
Parliament, acting on sound, statesmanlike
views and principles, to adopt measures which
will prove salutary to , the church itself."
The LORD CHANCELLOR denied all intention
on the part of the Government of appropriating
any of the surplus funds for the payment of
the Catholic clergy, chiefly on the ground that
they never would sanction any measure which
would make the Catholic religion the esta-
blished religion of Ireland. These two points,
in our humble opinion, are totally d fferent. If
it follows that the simple circumstance of pay-
ing the clergy of any religion makes that

the established religion, then Presbyterianism
is the State religion of the, north cf Ireland as
much as Protestailti*SM. We have all along
contended for such an appropr:ation of the sur-
plus, not for the purpose of encouraging Ca-
tholicism, but because we are convinced it
would have a contrary effect; and, above all,
because it is the only rational plan for
peace to Ireland. Even the tottl,e of RlCri-
MOND, with all his high regard for the Pro-
testant Church, with great good sense, declared
that he was one of those who tho'tkeit that the
Catholic ministers ought to be paid by the
State ; and to this " complexion" it must come
At tast.

In the House of Commons, last night, the
committee on the Poor Laws' Amendment
proceeded as far as the 82a clause, when the
chairman reported progress. We hope that,
by the assistance of the two days' morning sit-
tings, it will pass the House next week.

We are happy to learn, that the LORD
CHANCELLOR, in his examination before the
Committee of the House of Commons on the
Law of Libel, on Wednesday and Thursday,
expressed himself decidedly favourable to
the repeal of the stamps on newspa-
pers. His Lordship was of opinion,
that the pains and penalties attached to this
law were of no service in preserving the purity
of the press, and that the best mode of
counteracting the effect of
.the blasphemous,
obscene, and otherwise detestable publications,
which we have seen in times of excitement
was, to have recourse to the ordinary principle in
all such cases of taking away the impediments
from the fair dealer, and thus removing the
advantage which the law now gives to dis-
honest competition. The fair dealer is now
liable to a stamp of fourpence, which the
unfair dealer escapes, and the latter not
only highly seasons the food he prepares for the
perverted taste of the people, but he has the ad-
ditional advantage of underselling the former by
about 300 per cent. His Lordship well ob-
served that by removing the stamps you apply
the common principle of destroying the smuggler
by lowering the duties. He pointed out with
his usual eloquence that the effectual cure of the
evils so loudly complained of was to provide
more wholesome food for the reading portion
of the people ; and where this had been done it
had been attended with the most complete suc-
cess. If the two means were adopted to-
gether, of increasing the number and variety
of innocent and useful publications, that is,
taking off the tax which prevents competition
and providing more good cheap papers for the
bulk of the community, his Lordship had no
doubt that the public would no longer have
any reason to fear even the worst kinds of
libel. Papers might be sold so cheap, as to
be brought within the reach of the lowest
classes of society. His Lordship continued
to say, « It is no more than just that the people
should be informed on all public affair%
in which they take an interest ; they are not
less nearly concerned in them than their richer
neighbours, and a sound system of government
requires the people to read and inform them-
selves upon political subjects, else they are the
prey of every impostor and every agitator that
practices his trade in the country. If they
do not read,—if they do not learn,
if they do not digest; by discussion and reflec-
tion, What they have read and learnt ; if they
do not thus qualify themselves to form opinions
for themselves, other men will form opinions for
them, not according to truth and to the interests
of the people, but according to their individual
and selfish interests, Which may, and most proba-
bly will, be contrary to those of the community."
The repeal of the duty, and the consequent lar,De
reduction of the price of newspapers would, he
had no doubt, be itrimediately followed by
the greatest possible improvement in the tone
and temper of the political information of the
people, and he was satisfied, from very long
and anxious consideration; that the danger is
riot Of the people learning too much, but
knowing too little. These are the views of a
true statesman.

Mr. YOUNG is wrong in his premises in so
fat as they relate to shipping. In 1820, the
tonnag.e of British ships that cleared outwards
was 1,549,598 ; in 1825 it was 1,711,169 ; in
1830 it was 2,102,147 ; in 1833 it was
2,244,274. The increase of tonnage of foreigii
shipping that cleared outwards has no doubt
also increased. In 1820 it was 433,328 ; in
1825 it was 851,354; in 1830 it was 758,368 ;
in 1833 it was 758,601. But is it really a
ground of complaint that our neighbours have
prospered as well as ourselves ; and has Mr.
YOUNG, as a mercantile man, yet to learn, that
the more our neighbours prosper; the nlore they
will be enabled to purchase of us ? and is not
this manifest from the increase of our foreign
trade, with respect to which Mr. YOUNG also
is in error? In 1820, the amount of British
and Irish produce and manufactures exported
was, in official value, 37,820,9931. In
1825 it was 46,453,0221. In 1833 it was
69,989,3391. About these things there can
be no dispute. They appear from the finance
accounts, and they evince beyond .the possi-
bility of question the continuing increase of the
shipping, and of the foreign trade of the United
Kingdom.

But in one respect Mr. YOUNG is right.
The shipping interest, at least in the port of
London, is distressed ; but distress also prevails,
and continues to increase, in almost every branch
of home industry, and particularly in agri-
cultural industry. We have again and again
pressed upon our readers the consideration how
it happens that our foreign trade prospers while
our home industry languishes.
Mr. YOUNG is right in another respect.
All our duties of customs are excessive. This
is manifest from the great fall that has taken
place in general prices, which may be esti-
mated from the great diminution in the de-
clared value of our exports. These in 1810 wire
in declared value 47,000,9261., the official value

of whieli was 83,299,408/. In 1820 the declared
value was 35,569,0771., and the official value
was 37,820,2931., but in 1833 the declared value
was only 39,667,3471.) while the official "value
was 69,989,339/, About these things iltere
can be as little dispute. They all appear in the..
finance accounts. Now, even if our dUties of
ithports were Moderate in 1810? they must be
excessive now, because the tiChangeable value
Of the articles Upon which they are charged has
fallen at least one half, and our duties of cus-
toms, if we do not mean that they should ope-
rate as a bar to importation, should be dimi-
nished. But to make them operate us
a bar to importation, is tb impose a
restraint upon home industry, because, for
every foreign article imported, some article
of home industry must be exported. Thus,
though we do not agree with Mr. Y-Ou
that our shipping or mit foreign trade have
diminished, yet we agree with him that they
are in danger of being injured if our duties of
customs shall not be revised, and the duty that
is to be levied be made to correspond to the
exchangeable value of the article imported.
We_ also agree with him, that though the ex-
c2ssiveness of our import duties have not pre-
vented the increase of our foreign trade, yet
our foreign trade would have increased much
more if it had not been for that excessiveness.

The Paris Papers of Thursday contain no
further news than that there had been some
partial rioting at Toulouse, which had been
put down by the authorities. Marshal BOOR..
MONT was said to be on his return to France.

FRENCH. FUNDS Juss 5
Five ner 105 f. 9oc. 8 c 90c.
Four and a Half per Cents., Mt 15c.
For er Cents., 94f. —c.
Three per Cent,. 7.if 45c 50c. 10c.
Bank Actions, 1,R20f. 1.515 f.
Rente de Naples, 95f. 95f sc. 95f.
Boman Five per Cents., 9 :A,
Rente •'i,,pagne, Five per Cents , 3314 112.
Rente d'Espagne, Three per Cents., 4.)%557%.
Roy !MI luau, 54%14.
Rente Pprnet. Eina, tie rive per Cents:, 7411%54
Belgian Loan, 1831, Five per Cent, 9914.
Hay tian Loan, 2,6 f.
EXFDANGE ON LONDON.
One month. paper, 25f 3/1/42c.; money, —f. —c.
"Ihr se months, pa I. 2104. c. ; money, —f.
—fours duthentique.

Frankfort Papers say there is a report preva-
lent that the King of the FRENCH, in conse-
quence of the unsettled state of Europe, has
expressed a wish to summon a general congress,
and to that end has made overtures to several
of the Continental Sovereigns. The absurdity
of this rumour is so apparent, considering the
nature of Louis PHILIP'S connection with
England. that it requires no refutation.

The Allgemeine Zeitung mentions that a
Proclamation has been issued by Lord Nu-
GENT, dissolving the Parliament of the lonian
Islands, and indulges in a long tirade of abuse
against the government of his Lordship, which
it asserts has had the effect of throwing the
lonian Islands into confusion.
VIENNA, MAy 27.—Five per Cent. Metalliques,
99 9-16 ; Four per Cent., 91 3-16 ; Bank Shares, 1,236.
—Allyemeine Zeituny, June 1.

The following is a copy of a letter received
this morning, June 1, by the Secretary at
Lloyd's t—
" Foreign-office, June 6.
" Sir—f am directed by Viscount Palmerston to at:
quaint you, for the information of the committee for ma-
nging the affairs of Lloyd's, that intelligence has been re-
ceived at this department, that the Regency acting in Por-
tugal, in the name and on the behalf of Her Most Faithful
M tjesty Donna Maria 11., his resolved to establish imme-
(Lately an effective blockade of the Island of Madeira and
Porto Santo:

" I am yours, icc. , &c.,
" G. SHEE.

" To the Secretary of Lloyd's."

By the New York Papers; which have been
re6eived to the 14th ult., it appears that the
Senate has at length come to a decision to re-
ject the PRESIDENT'S protest, and has passed
a resolution to the effect that he had no right to
issue such a document :

(From the New York Commercial Advertiser, May 9. )
GREAT DIVIDEND.-The Phoenix Bank of ts7is day
declared a dividend of 25 per cent., to be paid on the 12th
of Jdtle out of i 6 §urphis capital and 3 per cent. on the
last six months' profits, in all 23.4 per cerit. The itnit
tution has given notice that on the 22d inst. books will be
opened for subscription to 40,000 shares, at2s dollars each,
additional stock, subject to an assessment of 25, 50, or 100
dollars, and agreeably to the act increasing the capital a
million and a half.

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC joUiNALS.

The reported speech of his Majesty to the Bishops on
the Birthday is so eagerly quoted by the Conservative
party, that it becomes necessary to make one or two re-
ma ks,Opon it. That speech, as given in a contemporary :
journal, eiipiesies the Khig'a personal determination to
preserve the integrity and interests of the church (being
the church of Ireland, as well as of England) inviolate ;
and discloses his Majesty's doubts whether, in any respect,
even in that of minor points of discipline, the establishment
calls for any species of correction. The speech was uttered
at a time when the temporal Government of the realm was
in the Orions of man, of its responsible .ministers actually
under the process of dissolution, and when it had become
of infinite importance to ascertain on what principles
and in what spirit the King's Cabinet was to be rebuilt.
His Majesty asserts in that declaratory speech that
he was not answerable for its language to any earthly tri-
bunal.. Now. coupling this opinion of a British Sovereign
with the occasion on Which he delivered it, with the events
of the day, and with the consequence§ of *hid' it might
be productive, there is no denying that, if genuine, which
we at first doubt ;ft, but which, unfortunately, we have
since found too much reason to believe, that step adopted
by his Maje Sty Ought td be regarded as one of grave irn,
portance. A King of England can do no political act
for which some min:ster oullit not to be held responsible. I
Was the speech in question a political act? Where no
man living doubts the rectitude and good intentions of the
King, there is no use in speaking hotly or impetuously
on such a matter; or at worst, in treating the thing
otherwise than as a precedent which might, if overlooked,
lead possibly to future evil. The discourse was delivered to
a great ecclesiastical body, recognised as such by the na-
tion—the prelates of the united church of England and
Ireland, assembled in the royal presence on a public occa-
sion--and the Sovereign who spoke it, announced that it
expressed the feelings and resolutions of his inmost mind,
upon a question of the very highest practical importance to
the country. Considering it, therefore, in the most mode-
rate
and sober light, we cannot hold such a declaration to
be any other than official—than an act deliberately per-
formed by the " head of the established church," not
merely indicative of his wishes, but morally binding upon
his future conduct, in his character both executive
and legislative. The political importance of such a
proceeding none can for a moment question, who has
observed the use already made of it by that party
which arrogates to itself the protectorship of the church,
and by M 7. Stanley, who hung upon it his assump-
tion that the King by whom it was adopted would never
sanction the acknowledged policy of his own sworn Minis-
ters. Under these circumstances, is it too much to ask,
whether some one of those Ministers—he, for instance,
who is the ostensible head of the Government—ought not
to avow or disavow that speech ?---whether he ought not
to put the country on its guard, and prepare the people of
England for what is before them, by stating in the face
of Parliament, that the King's declaration to the Bishops
has his (Lord Grey's) entire sanction, and that it fully
coincides with the views and policy of the existing
administration, or tranquillize the public uneasiness by
pronouncing it to be an extra official and private ebul-
lition of his Majesty, neither pledging him in his
legislative capacity, nor cognizable by any constituted
power ? It would be too much if the political nature of
the declaration were admitted, in the same breath in which
all responsibility for such an act, in every quarter, was

denied ; for we should then be neither more nor less than
living under an uncontrolled pattet, Oristitlt
countable to Parliament, or people: it appears to us, that
if ministers do not And it hedotiiiit t 6 itotiee. the klllii4ect
themselves, Wne iiidetiendent tit feipeeta.hie triemher of
either hoiise Of Parliament itight Bret propriety-put
d:gti 'soon With regard 'to and d'ras.v forth a reßly 4
'tVhii;h be.iatiaed: never be
forgot, that the. sound and ,alt'itait doctrine, that the King
can do nu.Vn'ong, founded do the principle that his Ma-
ieity, Acting solely by the medium of known constitutional
advisers, is not responsible for their advice, nor for the acts
done in pursuance of that advice.—Times.

It is evident from what passed in the House of Lords,
last night, and from the tone and temper of the house, as
well as from the sentiments expressed, that the Ainisters
will have a hard struggle for existence. There was a de-
gree of passion, as well as of personal asper.ty, in the dis-
cussions of last night, which seldoni ruffles the decorum of
theit )drcilhip!i' Proceedings, and Which shows how strongly
this glinrch question is likely to be contested in that branch
Of the legislature, where Ministers are confessedly the
weakest. The motion, which was a mere matter
of form, afforded no opportunity for a trial of
strength. It was a motion that could not be
refused. But if there be any force in words,
the day, cannot be far distant when a motion
hot merely of form but of substance will put the fate of
the question and of the ministry at issue together. There
can be no doubt as to the course which ministers mean to
pursue with regard to the church of Ireland. But there
is some doubt as to the course which the two Houses of
Parliament will pursue on the same question. Whether
the Commons will sanction such an interference with pro-
perty, and if they do, whether the Lords will again incur
the risk of another collision, we do not pretend, in the
present unsettled state of parties, to foresee. But it is
plain enough that matters are hastening to a crisis which
will cal for the best exercise of the best understand ngs in
the country to moull and fashion into good.—Morning
Herald.

COURT OF CHANCERY.-(THIS )AY.)

SHIRLEY V. LORD FERRERS.

Sir W. HORNE stated that he -was instructed to draw
his Lordship's attention to this case, with a view of ob-
taining judgment.
The Loan CHANCELLOR said he had intended to give
judgment in it to-day, but having been detained in another
place until half-past twelve o'clock, instead of getting home
at eight as he had anticipated, he had been obliged to de-
lay judgment till next week.

SMITH V. DR. TARTET.
Mr. KOE applied on behalf of the defendant in this case,
that two affidavits might be mentioned in the order,
so that the defendant might have the costs of these affida-
vits. His Lordship had made an order on the petition
giving the defendant the costs, and the registrar in draw-
ing it up had omitted to introduce these two affidavits.—
Ordered.

waßsoaWbEoußtVt..l,mloaßkeßl:n.
Mr. RUSSELL application in this
case respecting a part of the decree which had been made
in the cause, stating that his Lordship had, on a former oc-
casion, expressed a strong opinion against the correctness
of the decree, when
The Loan CHANCELLOR interrupted him by stating
that he had had experience enough in this case to teach
him not to say a word upon it without looking into the
whole of the papers and hearing what the opposite side
might have to say. The learned counsel would therefore
have to postpone his application.

IN RE FRANK, A LUNATIC.
Sir W. Ho aNE stated that this was the petition of a
professional gentleman named Leigh, and the question for
the court to decide was, whether, under the peculiar
circumstances of the case, that gentleman was entitled to
interest upon his bill of Costs. He did not pretend to
argue, as a general proposition of law, that a solicitor's
bill of costs would carry interest, but the present case
had originated in the year 1825. As to the large out-
lays which had been made by the petitioner there could
be no question. The amount of the bill was between
2,000/. and 3,000/., and notwithstanding all the scrutiny
that had taken place in the Masters' Office upon taxa-
tion, there had not been more than 2001. take'i off.
The fund paid into court had been a productive fund, for it
had created dividends, and Mr. Leigh had been appointed
by the court to watch and protect the property and person
of the lunatic. The court, therefore, having appointed him
to watch the proceedings and to lay the foundation of a
commission under which alone the court was to administer
the whole funds of the lunatic for the benefit of every body
concerned, ought to feel no difficulty in granting the prayer
of the petition.
Mr. SPENCE followed on the same side.
The LORD CHANCELLOR stated that he felt some dif-
ficulty in allowing the petitioner to receive interest, be-
cause he at present thought that the observations which
had been made in support of the petition might apply to
almost every case of lunacy lie would inquire into it,
and if the result of those inquiries changed his mind, he
would hear what Mr. Wakefield, who was on the other
side,_ had to say in opposition to it.
His Lordship then proceeded to hear further arguments
in the part-heard appeal of " Wain v. Rice."
VICE-CHANCERY COURT—(THIS DAY).

His HONOUR the Vice• Chancellor having disposed of
all the causes in which Sir Edward Sugden was not en-
gaged, rose at a quarter before eleven o'clock. No case
ilossessbi the loan ptiblic interest,

COURT OF KING'S BENCH-(THIS DAYS)

THE ICING L•. THE OUSE BANK COMMISSIONERS.

In this ease a rule had been obtained by Mr. Sergeant
ME nEwETti E It, calling ilion the defendants to show cause
why a writ of mandamus should not issue; commanding
them to proceed forthwith to put the banks of the river
Ouse into a state of proper security and repaii. It ap-
Oared that in the year 1831, an Act of Parliament had
been obtained, Sr the purpose of deepening and straighten-
ing the channel of the Ouse; In consequence of the al-
teration thus made in the channel of the river, the tide
rose and fell with much more rapidity, and the banks tier►
considerably damaged. One of the proprietors holding
land brought an action against the eau brink commissioners,
end damages were awarded him ; the consequence was
that ail arrangement was entered into, and an Act of Par-
liament obtained in I:Wen-Ater,. 1832, by which a certain
sum was to be vested in the Ouse Bank Commissioners,
for the purpose of repairing any damage done, or that
might hereafter be done, to the land of the proprietors oil
the banks of the river.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL now appeared to show
cause against the rule: The terms of the act were that the
Commissioners should "front time to time" make such re-
pairs as may be required, whereas the mandamus required
m trttThhhe
hgeee
eyubi
ireaeteiodripkes do so
t6n:ddt
ehkde'e
r'eteftoewr
gentlemantt
would
i newt
lt
di
tbtrhheabe.
ne'nsk'
us
rinneTo f
inehe
orffrueperpetual
ootd fhocommissionersrel
affidavits
ffivartetdup araoleir
.nwi
to
had been filed, showing that ter} extensive repairs hradseeerawpenuband i
paeiirleocssnhn:t
made by the commissioners, and that others were in pro-
gress. Under these circumstances, he contended that the
rule should be discharged.
Sir JAMES SCA R LETT and Mr. KELLY followed on the
same side.
Alf. Sergeant MEREwETHEE and Mr. AnonEws were
iietrtt in support of the rule.
The Cum,' JusTic E said that it appeared to the Court,
after an attentive conSideilltiod of the arguments and
affidavits, that the prima facie case of neglect on the part
of the Commissioners remained unanswered, with the
omission of the word " forthwith," which did not appear
essential to the rule. Rule absolute.

THE FUNDS•--(THIS DAY.)
CITY, TWELVE O'CLOCK.

Montreal and Halifax papers have been received to the
9th and 16th May, and Bahama to the 15th April, but
their contents possess no particular interest.
THE FUNDS.
Consols, which left off yesterday at 923/ for the ac-
count, remain steady at the above quotation at present,
owing to the French Funds coming lower from Paris
79f. 10c. Spanish and Portuguese Stocks, the former
coming I per Cent. hlier, from Paris, 323/4, may be
quoted at present 43% , the latter 76% 34. We hare
no fresh arrivals from Portugal as yet, or any political
news worth communicating.
HALF-PAST ONE.
With the exception of a trifling fluctuation, the funds
have continued steady during the morning.
Consols, which were in the early part of the day_ at
92% for the Account, have since receded to 92% 34,;
may be quoted at present at their former price, 92:1/4 As,
with little doing.
thea and
d is :is
4337 a n.hs.h Stock
Portuguese ha
is n done osnee
good
0 d44aslAi
n;
previous
iit is
part of the day, when it was 76% 3/4 : at present
76% N.
THREE O'CLOCK.
andliniostsetaotmede that Don
nDgolnand3.liguNeel
freshwill parroricveaelds. to Leghorn,
Consols for the Account, 921

CAMBRIDGE ELECTION.—The nomination',
will take place on Tuesday next ; the polling will
commence on the following day ; and on Friday the
return will be formally announced. The contest is ex-
pected to be an exceedingly sharp one.
We most sincerely regret to learn, that Mr.
John Galt, to whom the public, in common with ourc,-..
selves, stand indebted for so many pleasant hfuvrasra_`
amusement, is now lying in the last stag this
lysis. It is his intention to set out for Sco
I evening. pleasant
ind

SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE (THIS DSV)
tyltr,st 1,t)V1)..)
Jozit N.E., thnderate.—Arrived the
Vestal, Robertgon, frond Oporto; Ruth, Hore, and Anna.
Bengal MerehHrit; fromrikqi6l?, frotti
Powell, front Jamaica f, Darkly, Mann; from Grenada;
Mhdres, and sailed for the river. Sail.:d the outward-bottn(l.
Cowls, JUNE 6.—Arrived the Henry Thompson, Par.
son, from Boston.
PORTSMOUTH, JUNE 6.—Wind E.N.E. to S.S.W.—
Arrived off port the Elizabeth, Antolry, from :Sydney 4
Maria Cecilia, from the River Gambia • and Philadelphia,
Morgan, from London, which sailed for New
the Hope transport, Walters, for Plymouth. l
PLYMOUTH, JUNE s.—Wind NV. to N.—Arriv Day,.
Betsey Hall, Croker, from Lima; and William od
Meltraisb, from Gibraltar: Off port a Mitch ship, No. 3; I
and his Majesty's ship Nautilus, from Falmouth. Sailed
his Majesty's ship Castor, for Portsmouth. • ee
FALMOUTH, JUNE s.—Wind W. to N., strong breezes
and squally.—Arrived the Maria, Kemp, from Si 1r
York. Sailed
Leone ; and Louisa, Port, from New Orleans. Sail
the C43lumbia Steam-packet, for the Mediterianein:
STANGATE CREEK; 6.—Arrived the Challenger'
Alexander, and Providentta, Nichols, from Smyrna' Gib-
BRISTOL JUNE 6.—Arrived the Azores packet,
son, from Lisbon, and the Hernby, Allen, from Jamaicai,•,
LIVERPOOL, JUNE s.—Arrived the Maria, G°"„;;'
from Monte Video ; Lydia, Gibb, and Retrench,
bell, from Jamaica ; St. George, Thompson, from IV k
York ; Apollo, Thompson ; Famenend, Glendden • 11„,„"k.
. ingham, Kinnaird ; George, Grogier, and HazarAil,,'""n
son, from the Havannah. Off port, the Celia, DaWr'..- •
from New Orleans.
I GREENOCK, JUNE 4.—Arrived the Glenaffer. Don °P'
from Trinidad, and the Horace, Foss, from New Orleans'
CoRK, JUNE 4.—Arrived the Thomas Hanford, fr°,„nl
St. John's, New Brunswick, and the Fox, Cooke,
Teneriffe.

The Councturen Zeplin, from Huligurhaven to sza
Petersburg, is on ;bore near Warnemmide. Crew In
part of the cargo saved.
The Effort, Collie, bound to Riga, put into Carlscrons
leaky, having struck a sunken rock.