The Sun.
London, England, 1802-03-03 00:00:00

D-ERTOR.S.

-.Mr. In IVY NNE moved the Order of the Day
for the House to resolve itself into .a Committee on
the Bill for extending Provisions of the Lords'
AO.

The House having resolved itself into a Com-
mittee; the blanks were filled up; and several ver-
bal amendments made.. •

Mr. W. \V NNE said, it had been urged in op-
position to the Bill,. that persons of large property
might be compelled to sell 'their estates at a period
when they most be- skid at considerable disadvan-
tage. He confessed, he:did not see the force of the
objeftiori, as it mustlllSe'efildently for the advantage
of=the !Creditor tOlelYllie.estate at a time when the
most money thightiii)e'ol,tained for it; but to.
taob-
viate
any inconvenlitii'er'which might result from
this, he would propos Clause, authorizing the
Debtor to apply to the ourt of Chancery, and em-,
powering the Chancellor todecide summarily upon
the application. .• ,
' Mr. NICHOLLS said, if the House were deter-
mined to Support the present Bill, undoubte.lly
this clause was absolutely necessary. The Clause
however went to give the Chancellor the same
power as in the case of Bankruptcy, and this was
his objection, which applied to the principle of the
Bill, that its objet was to
,extend the Bankrupt
Laws to every man of Landed Property. If this
was to be done, why not do it openly and avowed-
ly ; why not place men of Landed Property at 'once
in the situation of Tradesmen ? Why should it not
also be extended to Peers and Memlytrs of Parlia-
ment ? and, why should not their property be•also
subjeCt to the same Law
,as the property of .other
Gentlemen ? •

Sir WILLIAM EL FORD asked, whether the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WYNNE), intended to pro-
pose, that the Bill should be primed, as amended ?
Mr. WYNNE said, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
N HO L. Ls) had argued, as if this Bill was an. in-
novation ; so far, however, from being an innova-
tion, the principle had been three times acknow-
ledged by Parliament, the sums to which it had
been applied, having been successively extended
.by
three ACts of ParliaMent, from tool. to 3001. The
present Bill was merely a further extension of that
principle, and he could see no reason why the sum
should not be extended to 30001. as well as to 3001.
It had been °Netted in the course of the discus-
sions upon this Bill, that a Creditor, to the amount
of only • a quarter of
,any Estate, ought not to be
allowed to cornPrtlt6 -hale of that Estate, It was
not, however, very likely, that a .I),!btori who
owed only to tiro amount of a quarter of his. Estate,
would chuse to remain in gaol for near a year
and a half upon that account ; if he did, he
thought such • a man was deserving of no pity,
as it could not be difficult for a Debtor in that
situation, to raise money in the course of that
time to discharge the debt, and surely a debtor of
that description was not to be allowed, merely be-
cause he chose to do so, to live in gaol upon the
profits of his estate, and to refuse to pay his cre-
ditors. With respea to the objettions relative to
the Peers and Members of Parliament, he thoUght
that subjeCt was not regularly.. before Parliament at
the present moment. The present Bill only related
to persons who chose to lie in gaol ; he could not
discover, therefore, how any clause could be incor-
porated with it, to extend its provisions to persons
who could not lie in gaol ; he could not see how
any such clause could be regularly connected .with
the Bill.

Sir W. ELFORD said the Hon. Member had
nu--: answered his question. He was friendly to the
Bill in the present instance, and he thought the
objeaions of the Hon, Gentleman (Mr. Mc HoLt.s)
had been done away by the clause now proposed,
but he thought the House ought to have time to
consider the Bill, as amended by the Committee.
Mr. NICHOLLS said, he could not agree that
.he principle of the sale of freehold property for the
Payment of debts had been recognized. The only
principle that had been recognized was, that proper-
ty of that description might be taken possession of,
and held till tliedebt was discharged. •
Mr. ALEXANDER said he would not now go
into the general question, but as it was clear that
the proceedings under this Bill were to be assimi-
lated to the general system of the Bankrupt Laws,
he thought there was a great deficiency in its pro-
yisionS. Under those Laws there were Officers ap-
pointed to execute them, and the Chancellor was ena-
bled to decide upon each case with a perfea know-
ledge of all its circumstances; but under the present
Bill, the Chancellor, as well as Judges of Assize,
were to be called upon to decide,- in a summary
way, Without any previous information upon she
suhjet.

Mr. NEWBOLT said, that if the House should
reje4 the first clause of the Bill, he should move to
preserve the last clause, by which the power of
judges of Assize relative to this su'oje6t, was- ex,
tended to the Quarter Sessions.
The-Clause was then agreed_ to,
Mr. BURTON said, he wished to call the atter)-
. tion of the Committee to a subjed which had been
alluded:to in the course of this discussion, he meant
the PriVileges of the Peers and Members of Parlia-
ment, which could not, he said, be suffered to re-
main as it af'ple4ent stood, if the House were de,
termined to,•support the Bill. ' He thought it would -
be extrernelyantlou.il to the Public, if the property
Of all- the.res:Coltlie- kingdom was to be compelled
to be sold, except that of Peers and Members of Par-
liament, it had been objeEled, that a clause rela-
tive to this subject could form no part of the pre-
sent Bill, being unconneaed with it ; but` if the
provisions of the Bill were to be extended to all
other persons possessed of Landed Property, why
should it not be extended to Peers and Members of
Parliament ? :It had invariably been the praCtice
of the Constitution, that Peers and Members of
Parliament should possess no privilege but what was
for the benefit of the Public, as the freedom from ar_.
rest certainly was. That the property however of.
Peers and Members of Parliament should_ be alone
excepted from the operation of the present • Bill
would be, he thought, unjust and unconstitutional ;.
and though it had been. objthed that provisions,
which only extended to persons lying in gaol,.could
not pe made to apply to persons who could not
be in gaol, he yet was convinced, that a Clause
might be introduced, to attach the property of
persons possessjng the privilege of Parliament, 23
well as of others. He concluded, by proposing a
a Clause to enaa, that if an Execution sued . out ,
against any Peer or Member of Parliament,- should
not be satisfied within a given time, the Creditor
should be empowered to call for an account of his pro-
perty in the same manner, as providaby the Bill in
other cases.

On the Question for bringing up the Clause,

The ATTORNEY -GENIErRAL said, that the
Clause was of vastly too large a scope ' to be
engrafted upon the present Bill ; if this sub-

left was 04pits-sed, must be• discussed in a
separate forip:2—iftft ,he thought the. remedy much
worse than:!llP.3l.arievance, and it seemed to
him that such a chat-Dil -would bedu intolerable burdenupon Peers and Members of Parliament. If a Peer
or a Member of Parliament happened to have. an
execution sued out against him- for 5661. ot%a less
sum, which he might think wrongfully obtained;
and therefore did not satisfy, within a certain time,

he was to be called upon, like • a Bankrupt, under
examination, to give an account of all his "property.
Such a Clause could not, he thought, be entertained
foi a moment, nor did it seem to him to grow in any
manner out of the Bill, whlch was only calculated
to compel a Debtor lying in gaol .to make sale of
his property for the benefit of his creditors, instead
of living there upon the produce of that, property.
The attaching of landed property for the payment
of debts, was not a very novel principle in the
Laws of this Country, it had been recognized
,by
the 'Statute Merchant and, Statute Staple, and .by
several other Statutes by which charges were made
upon land, it had been said that the Creditor in this
case would ger more than his_original` contra&
What if he did, he obtained it by the ,providence cf
the Legislature, and if this argument was good,, To
regulation' could ever be made upon the subjct until
every, debt in "the kingdom had been paid, and net
a single sum. remained upon .any books for
payment'. As to the sale of the estate, the
Debtor had obtained credit upon the faith of his
joint property, real and personal, and it was but
fair that the former, as well as the latter, should
be answerable. With respea to the sale of a Life
Estate, so as to prevent the party from barring re.
mainders, that might -he reguiated by the inter-
ference of a Court of Equity, and the objectixt
might he obviated by a provision in the prestnt
Bill, The Clause now' proposed, embraced a sub-
jea which=niuSt„undoubtedly be discussed by its!lf,
couldnot linterwoven with the present Bile
The A:sn of the ROLLS said, that as this
was not the proper period for discussing the principle
of this Bill, he would not now trouble the House by
stating'his sentiments upon it. With regard to the
Clause which had been proposed by his Learned
Friend, Lie dmibted the necessity of it, and to doubt
the necessity of any proposed alteration in the Es-
tablished Law, was with him to doubt the propriety
of it. The principle upon which this, part of the
Law of England with regard to D'ebtors'and Credi-
tors was founded, was, that every Man who was in

debt, and had landed property, would rather dispose
of that property to satisfy his Creditors than sub_

mit to lie in a gaol. The Law might therefore be
said to compel a man to sell his estate to pay his
debts ; because, if it did not do so, it consigned him
to imprisonment. But it had been urged in support
of this Bill, that this presumption of the Law- was
not always well founded, because instances con_

stantly occurred, in which persons preferred living
in a prison to paying their debts by a sale of their
real property. 'The object of the Bill was to com-
pel a sale of such property ; but this was no altera.
non of the principle of the Law ; it was only car.
rying it a little farther. But it this Clause was
adopted, it would be adopting a new principle ; be.
cause, by the Law as it now stood, Peers and Mem-
bers of Parliament could not be compelled, as other
persons could, by duress, to sell, and therefore
with regard to this Clause it was entirely a new
provision ; and whether it was or was not proper
to adopt it, he did not think it ought to be incor-
porated witlt this Bill. He did not mean to say it
was notl'atitbjet-} that deserved consideration, he
merely meant !tO contend that it was one of such
importance, that it ought to be discussed upon its
own footing. It had no natural connetlion with
this Bill, because it applied the same remedy to
persons who were in very different situations, and
therefore the Clause, if added to the Bill, would
only operate as a clog to it.
Mr. BURTON said, he could not admit that the
principle of this Bill was what the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who spoke last had stated. On
the contrary, he contended, that the principle.Of the
Bill was to snake land liable to be sold to satisfy

•
Fri'
Creditors, as well as personal property. The
vileges of Members of Parliament, as far as related
to property, had not been acted upon duriil the
last century, because they had not been found to be
necessary, and therefore he was decidedly of orile
nion that this regulation. ought to extend t°.,
landed property of Members of both Houses of par
!lament, as well as to that of other persons. it was
a matter of no importance to him whetiler this
Clause was added to the Bill, or whether it s:;
made the subje4t. of a distind Bill: he was, h°`
ever, strongly of opinion that it ought to 1.).e incorrr;
rated with this Bill, because it was letinded urto
the same principle, and it would appall; Wang
the world' if this favour was shewn filiO,r°Plog
of Members of Parliament. He was awaret",ed,
this Bill would make a great change in. the 10°4
property of Country Gentlemen, and therefore '
was undoubtedly deserving of great coniideration•
• Mt. NJCHOLLS strongly approved of thoe
Clause, which he said ought to be introduced it'ut
this Bill, not only from its intrinsic justice) b s
alsci- for the honour of the House. The.MAsTe.
of the had made 4 most ingenious disW4;
don, but it appeared to him not to apply to
the
Case, because, by the Law as
,it now stood,' t
hex
lands of Members of Parliament, as well as of ot-
perSons,'. might be taken, and kept until the debt.,
was 'discharged, consequently that distinction svilliwe
had been stated did not exist, and consequently 41r
right which this Bill proposed to give the Credit°
to sell the real property of his. tiebtor, ought tO
tend to Members of Parliament as well as to 'rhieic
persons. -"This not •appear to him 'to t
proper time to increase the Privileges of Manher
of Parliarrient,and he really thought it would be 3
as d's;
grace this Bill went 'out of the House lothoP
having this Clause inserted in it, because it 18'0°111
establish a distinetion between Members of b°t,,
Houses of Parliament, which the Law of Eoglae
did-not at present recognize,
r
Strangers 'were then ordered to Withdraw, aft
which, we understand, the Committee proceeded ¶o_
a division, but there not being 4.0 Members PT/il
sent, • the House. _adjourned at 1-lalf-p • t Five t"
Tomorrow,

THE SUN.

LICELZ FALSI;,,,

LQNDON, 144RCH 3, zso2?

T.4s-i• night we received, BY EXERESS, P
journals of the 16th ult. ;
sand this morning til°sc
of the z7th came to hand; The latter ennPi6 aP
article from thel-hur4e, dated the 29th nit. whi;
c
lt
states, that they had received there the most SatiSr
factory intelligence respeEting the Proceeding's 2'
i/igiens—,--that every tl;ing.h-ad been settled I-e1:164
to the Cape of Good Hoi4:::and that the cjnestic4lc
which remained for adjustment was, the cWoi
Indemnity on the part of the I:hitch, for their_Prs' •
India Ships detained in Iff.itish Ports,
tn,
There is an Address in -the Fzench Papers fxo
the Colonial 4sserribly of the Isle of France to the
Consuls, which, ash hal:been inserted in the C 3161
vial journal, deserveS'sorne attention. It 495c°
the necessity of the French Government gi-04
'immediate support, and protection to its ColoniCss,
in case it should be required to dispute the (19,ITW'
nion of the Ocean, and to secure to ocher St3WSl'
3
the liberty of the Seas. 'The obvious meaning '0
this Address is, that the Colony stands in gill;
need of the assistance of the mother country,
5.
The ELECTOR Of BAVARIA is carrying 00
reformations with a very determined spirit.
has added tep Members ‘,EO the Supreme Tribttnai
'of" Revision, which, since the ye;r 175, has hcel
wholly.ipcompetent to adjudge the multitude °
causes brought before That Court is 11054e-'.
fOrWard to be divided into two chambers, far. the

dispatch of bgsitiesk. -
Great changes are also effe&ing in. the Convent
• 10 116
of the Palatinate. The two famous Convents of P..'

and Female Dominicans 'at Heidelberg, have beer
suppressed, and several others of the sainc ordei
have been united together. The real and person
a
property oldie Convents thus suppressed and united' a
have been applied to the Ecclesiastical Funds,
to the purpose of establishing a course of Pubi
instruction in the Palatinate., But, one of the Iles
f
of the new regulations which has occurred, is,ie 1
enadment of a law to prevent the Monks I°l
begging. The people of that country, rejoice, 3
they well may do, at this happy change in their cif'
cums tances.

The French Funds, on the 26th, were at 57' 301

We also this morning received a Dutch gad; it
contains scarcely any intelligence but what has been
anticipated by the Harnburgh Mail and Fter'c/
Papers.
The Subscriptions for the Dutch Loan amounts
already to 24,000,000 florins.
e
The First Consul of France is said to "-sr
written to the PRINCE of ORANGE, assuring:l°l
that he will procure him an Indemnity
.in Ger-
many.

HER MAJESTY and the PRINCESSES Caine
Town yesterday from Windsor.
The KING also arrived at four in the rl"s
afrerain°noo,
There will be a Drawing-Room at St, J
to-morrow.

NAVAL NEWS.

PLYMOUTH, MARcH i.

ARR rvvn the Loudon, of g 8 guns, Captain G.
I\ll'ißßAy, and Barfieur, of 98 guns, Rear-Admiral
C' COLLINGWOOD, from Torbay ; the Conqueror,
0174 guns, and Nfas;cienne, of 32 guns, from Sheer-
ness ; Amelia Frigate, from a Cruize ; and Diamond
frigate, from Fitimputh to refit, having received
damage in a gair,of
Sailed the-Beardiei Frigate, on a Cruize to the
Westward. - i .