The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-23 00:00:00

to penalties—which penalties were commonly not levied.
Even when they a ere levied, would the fine find shoes, clothes,
and supplies for our soldiers, our horses, or our artillery ? It
is poor consolation under such-circumstances to know that a
fine has been levied. The report of Sir J. M'Niel and Colonel
Tulloch, the commissioners sent to the Crimea, states that
while soldiers bad to pay for their shoes, they were unwilling
to purchase them from the public stores • the soles came off,
and the leather was bad. Similar complaints were made as
to the quality of the clothing, which was quite unfit to stand
the rough work of the trenches, and was utterly inferior to
the quality of the French clothing! This arose from the prin-
ciple of buying in the cheapest market what was cheapest. A
man who paid Bs. for a pair of boots that lasted a mouth,
bought them dearer than one who paid Ils. for boots that
lasted half a year. The Government were not to blame. The
inspector of clothing could not examine 40,000 pairs of boots
and shoes. Ho turned them over to his subordinates. Much
fraud was thus practised ; many of those who had the power
of passing goods *ere open to gratuities, and bad goods were
passed accordingly. When the expenditure of the country
was at the greatest it should be administered with the greatest
economy.

Lord PALMERSTON appealed to the house on the incon-
venience of the course pursned by the honourable member
who had just sat down. It was quite obvious that if mat-
ters of detail—matters which should properly be dis-
cussed in committee —were thus brought forward on the
motion that the speaker leave the chair—that those whose
duty it was to bring forward measures of this kind, have
ever replied to any hon. member—were compelled to be
silent for the rest of the evening, and were unable to give
that information for the very purpose of affording which they
were asked to go into committee. If his right hon. friend was
to give au 'answer to all the details thus brought under dis-
cussion, he would have to anticipate all the remarks which
he would have to make in committee. The hon. gentleman
who spoke last had made a speech which be had intended to
make on a motion of a committee of inquiry, for cshich he had
given notice, and to which the Government were prepared to
assent, and which that very evening ho had said, that if not
himself in his place, ho should ask au hon, friend of his to
move for • him. It was sufficiently inconvenient to discuss
matters of detail of army estimates, on the motion that the
Speaker leave the chair, when his hon. friend could make
no reply ; but it was still more to hear a speech
on army clothing at a time when those whose duty it was
were unable, by the forms of the house, to give any expla-
nation. He (Lord Palmerston) had been long in that house,
and had had some experience in it—and it was strange to
see how, on some subjects, it vibrated and oscillated from
side to side. At one time, if anything was specially urged
upon the Government, it was the very mode of supplies
made by open tender, Nothing. was more constantly urged
by his lamented friend, Mr. Hume, than this, as the only
mode of procuring , things good and procuring them cheap.
The instances quoted of supplies not good in their kind were
not fairly quoted. They had to be obtained under a sudden
emergency, and were not obtained by contract or tender. It
was when, by the misfortune of a great storm, supplies were
lost which it was urgent to replace in any manner that offered
itself. At all events, a system which had only been in force from
June last, should not be judged by what occurred a year and a
half ago. He would put it to the house if it was not for their
own convenience to permit the Speaker to leave the chair ?
Colonel NORTH said he thought it was understood that
they were not to go into the estimates.
Lord PALMERSTON' sAid that what his right honour-
able friend had stated was this : that they were proposing
to take votes ou account, and that it was competent to
them to discuss those votes, betas the votes must necessarily
come again before the house, there would be another oppor-
tunity for discussing them.

S!r DE LACY EVANS said that these were very compli-
cated estimates, and that only 36 hours had been given for
their consideration. This was sharp practice, and the leaders
of the Opposition bench had abandoned their position, and the
only chance lay in the feelings of the Government as to what
was due to the country. He repeated that it was sharp prac-
tice the bringing the votes forward after only having been
circulated for 36 hours. The country would not approve of
such a proceeding. He conceived that this was a very impor-
tant occasion. They were about to vote estimates in the un-
certainty of peace or war, on a now plan— )rdnance, army—
all mixed together. He ought to know something about the
matter, lie did not want to interrupt the forms of the house.
He protested against these estimates—pre-eminently and
without example important, such as had not been brought for-
ward for 40 years—being brought forward at 36 hours' notice.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said, that with all the diligence he
could use he had not been able even to read the estimates
through. There were many millions having no refereace to
the war, and ho protested against such proceedings. He
should move that the estimates be deferred till Monday.
(Cries of " Move, move.")
Mr. MUNTZ rose to make some observations on the sys-
tem of tender. He learnt from good authority that that sys-
tem was bad in one respect. When goods bought by tender
ought to be rigorously examined, the examination which now
took place was of the worst description, done by young men
of delicate constitution. Without proper examination it was
' impossible to prevent abuse.
Colonel SOMERSET complained of the misrepresentation as
regards the army made by the gall tnt officer near him (Col.
Dunne). Amongst other things it had been asserted that
Lord Raglan chose his staff under the impression that there
was not to be a shot fired. He begged to repel this insinuation.
Colonel DUNNE had never spoken of the army as con.
stituted now. There had been a mode of selection of which
he could not approve, but had stated that there was more in-
competence than in fonner years; but the gallantry of the
army no one denied.

Mr. M. CHAMBERS approved of open competition by con-
tract, but it was necessary to prevent abuses. He had been
anxious at the commencement of the contest to see how Go-
vernment would proceed in the matter of contract. Fie had
then heard it said with grief that the Government establish-
ments Wer3 insufficient, and they were driven to the contract
system. He had discovered that in so doing they had been
subjected to great abuses. He did not agree with the obser-
vations of the hon. member .for Stoke-upon-Trent (Mr.
Ri-
cardo), that contracts should be confined to respectable trades-
men. How was the respectability of any tradesman to be as-
certained ? The fault was a very plain one, understood by all
business men—not to have those who understood the subject,
and in whom confidence could be placed to examine the articles.
This man should be a man of integrity, and be dismissed if he

ever made a falso ropro.ontgt;op: hail gond officers to
make the contract, but none to sea that those contracts were
properly executed. There avas e"ory necessity of having
proper inspection of article when tLey were to be supplied
according to sample. Instead of sending bocts and shoes to
the army, why not send bootmakets and shoemakers? When
once the contractors knew that goods were properly inspected,
they would take due cap of the fulfilment of their contract.
It was important to 'condescend to small things, without
which no Government could be properly conducted.
1411. SPOOXER said the question was whether the house
was prepared to go into committee on the estimates before
them. He agreed with the hon. and gallant memb r opposite
(General Evans) that these were peculiar estimates, and that
it was sharp practice to vote them at so short a notice. The
noble lord said that only a part of the votes were taken, and
that there would be other opportunities of discussing them.
But, aftet having once given.a vote, it would be impossible
to reopen the question.
Sir C. WOOD could not understand why the honourable
member could object to vote upon account, or think himself

precluded thereby from future discussion.
Mr. SVOONEII, said tint ho had said no such thing. But
take the first vote on the paper, which involved a pledge
which coal not be r(vokcd.

Sir C. WOOD referred to what had taken place the other
night. Instead of taking the full vote of three millions and a
half on the navy estimate, he had taken a vote of three mil-
lions, and the whole subject had to come again before the
house. Honourable members were actually debarring them-
selves from the opportunity of understanding what was pro-
posed and of forwarding public businesr.
The Speaker then loft the chair
SUPPLY.

The house then went into &committee of supply.
Mr. MONS M 412 said he proposed to take a supplemental
vote of 294,1541., comprising 65,3731. for barrack sup-
plies, most of which were sent to the East ; 91,0171. for
boots and shoes, having to sapply the Turkish Contingent
with them ; and 137,7011. for Warm clothing, in additi m to
120,0001. that had been expended for the same purpose.
These increases also contained large payments fa. the mortar
establishments in the East, and for stores, &c., supplied to the
Baltic fleet. There were also additional expenses at home re-
quired to be covered by supplemental votes. In reference to
15,090/. for wages to be employed in the Tower, the hon. gen-
tleman said that during the last year the arrangements for ex-
amining the necessary articles at the Tower ware found ineffi-
cient; and it was neeessaryto take additional room in St. Ka-
tharine Docks for the reception of articles from the contractors
instead of at the Tower, the effect of which had been a better
system of inspection now existed in the Tower than formerly,
and many of the evils complained of, and which he admitted
to be well-founded, • were `now remedied, and everything
would, for the future, be conducted to the entire satisfaction
of the public. The carrying out these reforms entailed neces-
sarily increased expenses. A vote of 40,0001. would be
required for Land Transport waggons, and 37,0001. for har-
ness. The hon. gentleman opposite had stated they were
unserviceable. The axles, however, had been tested, and
found to boar a heavier weight than was intended. It, how-
ever, would be desirable for the future that these waggons
should be made stronger. 25,0001. were required for improve-
ments in the Laboratory at Woolwich, for the construction of
shells under the superintendence of Captain Boxer, the iu-
venter of the machinery, whereby a saving was effected to the
pliblic from 11/. 15s. per ton to 61. 6s. Bd. per ton. The sum
was a portion of 50,0001. that the alterations would cost,
and he hoped the saving that would accrue from the cheaper
mode of obtaining them would repay in the course of the en-
suing year the investment of the money. He need scarcely
enlarge upon the advantage this establishment would be in
the event of war again occurring. A sum of 1,2681. would be
required to defray the expenses of a select committee at
Woolwich. With reference to the conducting of scientific
experiments, and 1,1001. for the examination of candidates
for the artillery and engineers, great advantages had resulted
from it, and the examinations of the cadets had been satis-
factory, and experience had shown that the selections that
had been made hitherto had been successful as regarded
learning and military bearing. The establishment at Shoe-
buryness was one of great importance, and was the only place
they had for trying heavy ordnance. The results during the
past year had been important in getting rid of fallacies in the
public mind with reference to inventions in large guns, and
it was necessary they should have such a place, where they
could test fire-arms of both large and small calibre. He now
came to the consideration of the army estimates for the present
year, and he saw no difficulty in their comprehension by gen-
tlemen accustomed to such estimates. Many of the votes would
be the same as on former occasions, whilst the blending toge-
ther of others would be an improvement and, in accordance
the recommendation of the committee on army organisation
which sat in 1837, and who impressed the importance of
tho whole of the army estimates being presented before
them at one view. The civil department of the army had
been removed from the War Department, and placed under
the Secretary-of State for the Homo Department. The Com-
missariat Department had undergone a change, the financial
department being removed to the Treasury, and that of pro-
' riding food, &c., only being confined to the Commissariat. In
the three last years of the late war the estimates exceeded
those he now submittedto the house. InlBl3 the estimates for
army, ordnance, and commissariat amounted to 36,245,2381.;
in 1814, to 49,482,9111. ; and, in 1815, to 49,562,269/.
These amounts exceeded considerably the amount of the esti-
mates it would be his duty that night to submit to the house.
The hon. gentleman then referred to the order of valour lately
in
wouldreturns
r (
1 be a
tri retrospective o
topective in its opera-
the healthy cn instituted, s
condi-
tion of the army in the Crimea, which he contrasted with the
ostantedd, read
state of the health of the army in other parts of the world.
This, in great measure, was attributable to the improvements
that had taken place in the food and clothing of the men and
the excellent sanitary arrangements made in the camp by Dr.
whichs heeev several id
Sutherland and the gentlemen who had assisted him. The re-
cruits that had
.been sent out to the Crimea were not of so
young an age as was generally supposed. He found that of
10,268 men sent out to the Crimea between April and Oct.,
1855, that-162 only were under 18 years of age ; 5,318 were
between-the ages of 18 and 21; 2,822 between those of 21
and 24 ; '2,244 between those of 24 and 30 ; and 412 above
30 years of age; Another return showed the actual ages of
the men now in the Crimea, and also those of the army when
the war commenced, and which also showed that the state-
ment that bad Den made, that the army was composed Lot,