The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-03 00:00:00

esteemed a cdnPsientious duty. So far as the Hon. Mem-
•ber had spoked of the• distiess of the people of Ireland,
the case he had brought forward was most fully made
out. There was no doubt of the distresses of the coun-
try, and instead of being diminished, it was increased—
increased too by the strong arm of the law. He was not
going to discuss the Coercive Bill, but he must say that
the strong arm of the law encouraged bad landlords, of
whom he did not pretend to speak with forbearance, to act
with greater rigour than ever towards their tenants.
There were more notices to quit served from the 25th of
• March and the Ist of May than there bad been for twenty
years past. There was not any demand upon the pea•
gantry that was not now rigorously enforced, and the re-
sult was such, that lie was sure the Government would
require the same Act next year, in order to repress those
heart-burnings that the misconduct of bad landlords,
acting under the protection of the present Bill bad occa-
sioned. It was said that the poor laws would assist in
potting an end to the disorders among the peasantry.
Ile did not entertain that opinion. Then again it was
said that the introduction of the poor laws into Ireland
would prevent the annual influx of Irish labourers into
this country. It would have no such effect ; but, on the
contrary, when the Irish landlords found they had to
support the family of the poor Irish peasant, they would find
it their interest to send the man himself cff to England ;
and as he would not have, as ❑ow, to save money for the
support of his family, he would be able to work at
even a less rate of wages than a• present. There was one
subject connected with the poor laws to which he had not
yet adverted, but respecting which it was impossible to
be silent; he alluded to the demoralizing influence of the
laws affecting bastardy, which arose out of the provision
fur the poor, as it already existed in England. It was, as
the House well knew, in some parts of the country, an
extremely good speculation for a man to marry a woman
who had had two bastards. Good God ! could he be
then speaking of Englishmen ? He did not for a moment
mean to insinuate that Englishmen did not naturally en-
tertain as just a sense of personal propriety and domestic
honour as other men ; but, merciful Heaven ! how they
must have been degraded and demoralized by the poor
laws, before they could have sunk to such a depth below
the moral dignity of other nations, as thus to speculate
for subsistence upon a double prostitution, and live upon
the produce of their wire's dishonour ! They might im-
pose what restrictions they thought proper on the unfor-
tunate Irish—they might, in the exercise of the power
intrusted to them, abuse their authority, and make Ire-

land the subject of the severest and most tyrannical regu-
lations which the perverted ingenuity of man could
devise; but, do what they might, let them, above all
things, not destroy the sense of personal independence
which still remained in that country.—(Hear.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY observed, that what the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin said, was well founded
in fact, and sound in reasoning ; it would amount to this—
that though he (the Member for Dublin) had all his life
been protesting against the tyrannical government of Ire-
-1 and—though he bad ever been declaiming against the
cruel and arbitrary laws imposed upon the Irish people,
and the desolation which those laws spread over the land,
and the degraded condition to which the people were in
consequence reduced—yet now he came forward to picture
to them the moral beauty, the propriety, and the rectitude,
which, if they were to take his represent ition for the fact,
allowed that poor laws were not only not wanted in Ire-
land, hut would be positively mischievous.—(Hear, hear.)
In becoming the advocate of such views, the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman lent himself to the doctrines of the
political economists, who treated man as if he was a ma-
chine, or an article of merchandise, and who would apply
to human beings the rules of supply and detnand, and con-
tend that these intelligent beings could be subjected, as if
they were bales of cloth or barrels of sugar. He regretted
that the 11,n. and Learned Member fur Dublin, possess-
ing, as he did, so much influence in Ireland, should lend
himself to opinions so adverse to the commonest feelings of
humanity, and so opposed to every right that man could
cl,e'im of society. The English system of poor laws had
been grievously decried ; but lie would put this question—
Lad loot all the evils which they produced arisen within
the last thirty years? In his opinion, Ireland presented at
the present moment a most • favoutable condition for the
establishment of a good system of poor laws, and could
they but succeed in that, it would prove advantageous to
England, not only in the various modes which had been
already stated, but likewise as a model for improvements
in the English system.
Mr. SLANEY was of opinion that Government had
alooted the only practicable course, and he hoped, that
whatever provision might be made, it would not include
the able-bodied, for lie held that there was a wide dis-
tinction between a provision for the aged, the infirm, and
the orphan, and a right in the able-bodied to demand an
ample subsistence. He rejoiced heartily that Ministers had
agreed to appoint a commission which would institute an
honest inquiry into the state of the poor of Ireland.
Mr. 11. GRATTAN slid, absentees who abandoned

heir country to its misery ought to be compeled by taxa-
tion to support those whom they made poor. The Le-
gislature would thus bring to their senses the base de-
serters of their native land. A species of poor law already
existed in Ireland, but the funds were provided only by
the lower orders. A rich man built a high fence round
his dwelling, but the peasant left his cottage door open for
the admission of those who were in want of a meal. The
lion. Member contended that the Church also ought to
contribute to the maintenance of the poor ; and he re
ferred to the authority of St. Chrisostom, in Moore's new
'cork, " The Travels of an Irish Gentleman in Search of a
Reli,,jon," to show that such was the opinio❑ of that ve-
oereble father. He concurred in the amendment of the
pllnble Lo: d.
Mr. C. PERGUSSON observed that the object of the
motion was not •o introduce into Ireland the abuses, but
the excellencies of tha, system of English poor laws. He
approved of the Commission, but apprehended that the in-
quiry would not he sufficiently comprehensive, so as to
embrace all parts of the :object, and leave no point for fu-
ture investigation. _ .

Mr. HUME was as friendly to the poor as any man ;
but having a moral conviction on his mind that great evils
existed in the poor laws, he could not conscientiously vote
for their adoption in Ireland, which was already sufficiently
afflicted. He maintained that the deterioration of the la-
bouring classes began with the introduction of the poor
laws. He contended that the principles of the Hon. Members
for Colchester and Kirkcudbright would destroy all security
of property. Ile was persuaded, too, that if the system of
the poor laws was not corrected in England, it would lead
to the total demoralization of the people. He would sug-
gest that the inquiry should be extended to Scotland—that
a Commissioner should go there to inquire into what had
been done in that country.
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON wished to see relief
Oyes to the infirm and aged, and helpless, hut nut to the
able-bo.C.2d.
Colonel CONOLLY concurred in the views of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and should sup-
port the propozition of the Noble Lord.—(Question.)
Mr. SHAW agreed in the sentiments expressed on the
occasion by the Hon. Member for Dublin, and should,
therefore support the amendment of the Noble Lord.
Lord ACHESON—Though he entertained an opinion
that a modified system of poor laws might prove beneficial
to Ireland, yet, upon the whole, thought it better to ac-
quiesce in the proposition of the Noble Lord.
Lord SANDON said that the House was told, that if
she poor laws were extended to Ireland the sources of
,;_‘arity would be dried up ; but was that, he would ask,
the rase in England ?—(Loud cries of " Question"
und coughing.) They should not argue as to any mea-
sure ficrn its abuses, but rather from its uses.—(Great
coughing, a,t5.1 cries of " Question.") He trusted they
would inquire iCao the matter without prejudice, for it
was absolutely nßces4.iry, either that Ireland should be
made to approximate to England, or else that England
should be made to approximata to Ireland. In his opinion
the question was not an Irish question only ; it was an
English one also. He concluded by regretting that it was
obviously the feeling of the House that the project fur poor
laws in Leland, however modified, ought to be dis-
countenanced.
Mr. BARRON hoped the Hon. Member fur Knares-
borough would not now press his motion to a division.
Poor laws, in his mind, could alone induce the people
when in distress to respect the property of their neigh-
bours, whom they frequently plundered, because they
thought it their duty to preserve themselves and families
from starving in the midst of plenty by all and every
means in their power.
Mr. ESTCOURT thought the amendment of hie No-
ble Friend seemed designed and framed to.gisotillgo-by
to the motion of to.night.—(ll,mr,,,,i-44,..)- He should,
therefOre, suggest that there lat,introduced into the amend-
ment a recommendation to the commission to report whe-
ther it was expedient to raise any competent sums for the
relief of the poor blind and impotent in Ireland.
Lord ALTHORP observed that lie hal stated, on the
occasion alluded to, that it would not be right in the
Xcaolution adopted by the House to embody in it an re-
commendation of this kind. It Was better to confine the
recommendation to obtainftrg information for the House
upon which it might act with safety. He assured his
H intention to give
tit-a question the go-by, but his object was solely to render
the Commission subservient to the great object, so as to
enable the House to act upon thorough information.
Mr. RICHARDS addressed the House at some length