The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-07 00:00:00

nea time to go into a discussion of the principle.
He was surprised to hear his hon. friend object to
workhouses.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY explained. What he
objected to was the general establishment of work-
houses.
Mr. WHITMORE was convinced that workhouses
were essential to the full operation of the bill. The
amendment of his hon. friend would have the effect of
enabling any parish to refuse its quota of expense.
This would derange the whole plan.
Mr. R. PAL MER said the bill, as altered, seemed
to him not to give
p,;:ver to the commissioners of or-
dering workhouses to be i,
.2ilt without the consent of a
rajah, of the landowners.
It might render the
amendment unnecessary if this
pc,;:t was clearly ex-
plained.
Lord ALTHORP said the bill gave 0 power to
the commissioners to order the building of wory.:.houses•
They might recommend the buildin r, but it cosh net
be done without the consecit of the p risk.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY (across the table)—Not
even if united ?
Lord ALTHORP—No, not even if united. The
commissioners had power only to recommend the
building. He wished it to be distinctly understood
that neither this clause nor any other in the bi I pre-
cluded the giving of relief out of the workhouse,
though the recommendation of the commissioners eer-
ialnly tended that way. No one of any experience or
practial knowledge could think or attempting to esta-
blish by law a general system of workhouses. This
bill gave the Dower of building them to such parishes
as thought fit to do so, and no more. The power of
giving relief out of the workhouse was not teten away
by the bill. It only took from magistrates the power
of ordering relief.
Mr. BENETT said the clause, as now worded,
seemed to him to give the Commissbners or guardians
power of directing workhouses to be Wilt v ithout the
consent of the parish. He entirely disapproved of a
general system of workhouses. Those who once
entered them came out greatly deteriorated is; habits
and character. A general system of this kind would
perpetuate pauperism throughout the country. No
parish ought to be forced to enter into a tender agains4
the wish of the ratepayers. In parishes with which
he was acquainted many of the very best labourers
could not get work. Were these poor men to be im-
prisoned in a workhouse for no fault of theirs ? Were
they to be punished because they were poor ? He
must complain also that this bill took away from the
Magistrates the guardianship over the poor of their
neighbourhood which they before exercised so benefi-
cially.
Lord ALTHORP said Magistrates would still re-
tam their influence, for the bill empowered them to
exercise the function of guardians. There was no
occasion for the change suggested by his hon. friend
(Mr. Benett). It was not intended that the guar-
dian", should have the power of ordering workhouses
to be built. 7he presumption was natural that if the
guardians assented the ratepayers had also assented.
After a few words from Mr. Lennard, Lord Althorp,
Mr. Brotherton, and Mr. Halcomb,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY again repeated his ob-
jection to the clause. The object of his amendment
was to have every parish free to build a workhouse or
not, as they might determine.
Mr. GROTE said the object of this clause was to
determine, in the event of a union of parishes, the
proportion which each was to contribute to the erectiou
of a workhouse, if one was to be built, and the pro-
portion in which each parish was to be assessed for the
support of it.
After a few words from Mr. BENETT and Major
HANDLEY,
Mr. HODGES considered the bill as one which
was only to provide relief for the able-bodied poor.
Instead, therefore, of taking the rates of parishes for
three years, it would be better that there should be au
analysis for each year in each parish, in or ler to see
the amount of relief afforded to able-bodied poor in
each parish of the union. The able-bodied poor might
receive but a small amount of the rates, whereas much
might be expended in litigation. It would.be neces-
sary to distinguish yearly the several amounts. He
thought it consequently desirous that words should be
introduced into the clause to make the commissioners
see how much was the expenditure on the able-bodied
poor, and that expense only was to be assessed on the
union.

Lord AL THORP said that relief was not to be
afforded to the able-bodied poor alone. All the poor
were to be relieved. Therefore it was absolutely ne-
cessary that the whole amount of the rates should be
taken, and their amount should r.ot be d.vided.
Since workhouses, and the expenses att( ndant 01 them,
were not confined to the able-bodied poor, the only
mode of ascertaining the precise amount of the grant
required would be to see the whole of the expense the
parishes incurred.
Mr. P. SCRO PE hoped that the suggestion of
the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Hodges) would be
attended to by the noble lord. He begged to call the
attention of the house to one point, namely, that by
the operation of this clause considerable pressure
would fall upon the smaller parishes, since some of
them did not require a workhouse, as they were in the
habit of relieving their own poor at the houses of the
poor in a moderate and humane manner. It would be
extremely hard on the smaller parishes if they were
compelled to have workhouses, and it would be also
injurious to the poor of those parishes. [The hon.
gentleman here referred to Mr. Stewart's (one of the
commissioners) report to show that uniting work-
houses and incorporating parishes had not worked
well.] The plan had been tried in several hundreds
of the county of Suffolk; in fact it had been tried in
at least one-third of the whole of that county. What
was the success of the plan ? Those who were in
favour of it said that when the plan was matured it
would turn out to be a panacea for all the evils of
pauperism. Several acts were accordingly applied
for and obtained, and the plan had been for some
time in operation, but the expectations of those who
so strenuously recommended it had not been realized.
The workhouses in a little time had become little
better than prisons, and were found utterly useless
for the purposes they were intended for. (The hon.
gentleman then read a letter from Mr. Beecher, who
was considered the patron of workhouses, and that gen-
tleman stated it to be his opinion that the system of
workhouses, as recommended by the commissioners,
would be productive of more harm than good.) He
would not join, however, the hon. baronet by support-
ing his amendment, since he was entirely opposed to
the union of parishes.
The house then divided—
For the amendment 12
Against it 113
Majority
_ _ - —lOl

After a few words -from Mr. Halcomb, Mr. Pease,
Lord Althorp, Mr. Brotherton, and Mr. Strick,aud,
the clause as amended was agreed to.
The 22d, 23d, and 24th clauses, with a few verbal
amendments, were then agreed to.
On clause 25 being read,
Sir E. EN ATC HBULL said that he thought it
would be extremely unjust to unite, as this clause was
meant to no, well-regulated parishes with parishes
that were not well-regulated. It would be entailing
an expense on the former that they ought not to be
subjected to.
Lord ALT H 0 RP said that each parish would be
rated only according to the necessity of the case, and
therefore the parish that was well regulated would
have to pay less than those that were not well regu-
lated.

Mr. HAWES said that there must be always some
partial injustice done whenever a great measure of
general utility was to be established, and although he
should be sorry to see injustice done in any case. yet
he should prefer that to the reje tioa of a great prin.
ciple like this.
The clause was then agreed to with some ve:tal
amendments.
On the 26th clause being proposed,
Lord ALTHORP moved the introduction of words
making- requisite the concurrence of all instead of
three-fourths of the guardions in an union of parishes
previously to the introduction of new regulations.
The clause, having been altered to that effect, and
after undergoing several verbal amendments, was
agreed to.
The 27th clause, with some amendments, was than
passed.
The 25th clause, relating to the power of guardians
to assess parishes, was then put from the Chair, and
I a ~ed, with several amendments.
Clau es 29 and 30 were, after some verbal amend-
ments, agreed to.
Clause 31 was amended and agreed to, after a long
dlto low
gethtoorne .in of
o.
in w
conversation, in which several members took part ;
butiho
in consequence
it onsewqausenncaerroiefd tohne noiseitwas
a
in the gallery.
Clause 32 was then read.
Mr. BAINE S moved that that pa-t of the clause
be struck out which directed that tie minister of the
parish should be an ex officio guard an of the poor.
Several HoN. MEMBERS expressed their concur-