The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-06 00:00:00

SIR JOHN KEY.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY moved that the Speaker do issue
his warrant for a new writ for London, in the room of Sir
John Key, who had accepted the stewardship of the chi!.
tern hundreds.

. -
The norron was carried amidst the laughter of the House.
S•r HENRY HARDINGE said that the motion just
made would of course prevent him from moving for the
appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the
breach of privilege coinpldined of in the petition he had in
his hands. The petitioners referred first to that
al'eeed breach of privilege, and secondly to the
conduct of the Government in appointing the son of Sir
John Key to a situation in the St itionary-office. if- should
only sty, now that Sir John Key was out of that House,
what he should have said bad he been present, that it
would have been exceedingly painful for him to have
had to enter upcn an inquiry which might have affected
Sir John Key's interest. He was glad, therefore, at
having been relieved from the discharge of that duty, and
should confine himself to the othet part of the pe ition.
The petitioners consisted of some 26 or 27 of the most
respectable merchants in the city, who complained that
the appointment of Sir John Key's son to an office which
gave him the inspection and decision upon the quality and
quintity of the piper sent into the Government stores,
could not but be injurious to competition, when the p rson
so appointed had a father or an uncle supplying the Go-
vernment with that article. They complained of the
system which allowed of an appointment to be made
without due security being taken for the judgment and
experience of the party appointed, as well as of his inte-
grity, which was not in this case impugned. Sir John
Key's son, he (Sir H. Hardince) understood, was only IS
or 19 years of age, so that, join, d to the inconveniences
which might arise from his near connection with a Member
of that House, who himself supplied the Government with
stationery, there were all the inconveniences of having
a person appointed to the situation who hail no experience.
He had been informed by the Noble Lord opposite that
neither he nor the Prime Minister knew of this ap-
pointment,
Lord ALTHORP—Not of his minority in age.

Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that of course he must
suppose his Afaj,sty's Ministers ignorant of the near
connection of the individual appointed with Sir John K y,
and of his not having attained his majority. They must have
supposed, at least he was twenty. one years of age.—(Hear,
from Lord Althorp.) Under tile circumstances which had
t 'ken place, however, it was right the public should have
some guarantee against the repetitio❑ of such an
abuse. T, e petitioners prayed that in particular.
The petitioners stated that they were teddy to prove at the
bar of the House that the situation in question was gene-
rally filed, and required to be filled, by a person of long
experience in the trade ; and it was absolutely necessary
that he should be quite uticonnee,ed with those who con-
tracted for the supply of paper to the office. &eat wrong
and prejudice were likely to arise from such an appoint-
ment, and it was absolutely nece•t.aty that some inquiry
should take place into the circumstances of this appoint-
/neut. The Right Hon. Baronet then moved that the
petition he brought up fur the purpose of moving after-
wards that it be re!erred to a Committee, who should
inquire into the particular circumstances of the tran-
saction.

The petition was then brought up, and read by the clerk
at length.
Lord ALTHORP stated, that the appointments in
question hail generally been given to persons connected
with the trade, who had not succeeded ; but on the pre-
sent occasion, complaint having been made by the Comp-
troller of the Stationary Department that those usually
appointed were too old, and not able to attend to its duties,
it was thought proper to give the appointment to this
young man, who was represented not as in his 18th,
but in his 22d year.—(Hear.) It was not known
at the time that he was at all connected with
time Government contractor ; bat the Comptroller himself,
without making any communication to the Treasury, bsd
arranged that as to what paper was supplied by hie rela-
tive, it should come under the inspection of another indi.
victual. He was quite sure that gentlemen' would not
believe that he (Li,rd Althorp) in any way was concerned
in this transaction ; he bad, in fact, known nothing of the
appointment till Saturday se'nnight, wi en a friend of hi.:
stated tie circumstances, which be (Lord A ) communicated
to Eat 1 Grey,and the appointmentwas imaiediatelyea.ncelled.
It was unknown at the time the appointment was made
that he was co: netted with the person who held the
contract. Had it teen known, of course the appointment
would :,ot have taken place. With respect to the age of
the party, it had been stated by the Comptroller that a
younger person than h id beets usually appointed would
be found to be more efficient in the office ; and since the
ippointment hdd been cancelled, the Comptroller had
stated that it would be preferable to have a person not
much older than 25 years, and that he should be conversant
with the stationary business. He assured the House that the
moment a lair kcowledge of the transaction was obtained,
the aprointment was cancelled. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had expressed his intention of moving for the ap-
pointment of a Committee; now this would have been ex-
ceedingly proper had Sir John Key remained a Member of
that House; but the representative capseity of Sir John
had ceased, and he would put it to the Right Honourable
Gentleman and to the House, whether it should now be
pressed as a breach of privilege, as he doubted whether it
could be so considered, seeing that Sir John Key bad
applied for the Chiltern Hundreds—(Loud cries of
Hear ").—and was no longer a Member of that House.
--(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said the most important part of this sub-
ject was, should Sir John Key remain any longer a
Member of the House of Commons, he being at the
same time a contractor? His seat was ipso
facto void by the aiithority of the law, but
it should not have been suffered to be vacated until
full time had been made to institute an inquiry. If the
statement which had been made was correct, he (Sir R.
Peel) was sure that under an unreformed Hiyise of Commons
no Government would have sanctioned such proceedings;
and even if it had, no unreformed House of Commons
would have permitted them.—(Hear, hear.) The seat was
vacated under an Act of Parliament passed in the year
1783, when the influence of the Crown was so gee it,
that it was determined to diminish it. That Act pro-
vided, that no contractor for the public should be
entitled to a seat in Parliament, and that no
Member of Parliament should be entitled to ent-r
into any contract to supply the public with artie es, and it
was also provided that in all cidatracts im condition should
be inserted, that no Member of the House of Commons
shou'd participate in any manner in the benefits to he de.
rived from it. He now begged leave to ask whether
in the contract in question there was any such
condition ineerted......lThe Right lion. Baronet here paused

but no reply being made, he preceeded.l H, understood
that such a eonilitiiin was in all contracts, and he wi,he
to know whether it was so in the present one. NV ,e
that condition in it or not, and was not afterwards
Sir John Key the vie teal contractor ? For the
honour of Members of Parliament, this subject demanded
an inquiry.—(Hear, he ir, hear.) It ought to be
kno•an whether or not it was practicable to evade
an Act of Parliament by permitting a brother of a
Member who had retired from business to re-enter into
business merely to make a contract, the Mem',er himself
(who was the Member for the city of London) being
virtually the contractor. The House should know whether
so palpable an evasion of an Act of Parliament could take
place, in order that they might guard against the
recurrence of it, rather than to allow it to be put to rest
by Sir • John Key's retiring from Parliament. It w as-
•tated in the petition to be capable of proof that Sir John
Key, a Member of Parliament, was, bona fide, the con-
tractor to the amount of 60 0001., that his brother had
retired from business, but that he had supplied the arti-
cles, and that he had b en in daily communication with
the parties. All be (Sir R. Peel) asked was for
an opportunity of ascertaining whether those facts were
true. But in addition to those circumstances, Sir
John Key, the virtual contractor, got his son, who
was little more than 18 years of age, placed in that offiee
in which the quantity and quality of the articles supplied
were to he ascertained. The N ible Lord (Altho•-p) had said
that the persons in thatdepartm• nt had notreportedanything
respecting the young man's age to the Treasury. It was
the duty of the head of that department riot to do any
thing to acquiesce in an appointment to an office, in which
there were substantial and important duties to perform, but
to make a representation to the Treasury; for although he
was the son of a stationer, his age alone was sufficient to
preclude him from a satisfactory discharge of his duties.-
-( Hear, hear.) His age alone ought to have disqualified
him from hold ng the office. Besides, he had to enter
into a bond for the due discharge of his duties, and a
young man of eighteen years anal a-half old could not
enter into any such bond. It was a most important question
as affected the House of Gumming, and demanded inquiry,
not for the mere purpose of visiting Sir John Key with
penalties, but to ascertain how such things could take
place, and to prevent a repetition of them.
Lord ALTHORP had stated before, that Sir John Key
was no longer a Member of that House, and the Right
Hon. Baronet now desired to know why he had been per-
mitted to become so. His Lordship was understood to
say that he did not mean to say that he had done it as a
matter of ceurse. The effect of doing so would not he to
withdraw Su. John Key from his liability to a prosecution
for penalties for being a contractor, in case it should be
proved that he was so while he held a seat in that H tuse,
ant it would not pl ace him in a better situation than if be
had remained in Parliament, and, therefore, he thought, en
the best consideration he could give the subject, anal he
had not a great length of time to consider it, that there
was no objection to give Sir John Key that appointment
—(A laugh)—which had vicated his seat. He must say
that lie thought he had a right to complain of the tone
adopted by the Right Hon. Gentleman iippi site, who had
attacked them as if they knew, and wilfully hail appointed
Mr. Key knowing that he was only 18 years of age.
Sir R. PEEL hail on'y intended to say that it was the
duty of the Comptroller to know the age of the young
man, and to reen•mstrate against the appointment.

Lord ALTHORP—The Right Hon. Baronet might
have intended that, but the bop! essiou upon the House.
way—(Hea•, hear)—that he had attack,d she Govern-
ment as if they had appointed Mr. Key knowing that Le
was a boy of IS years of age, and a connectioo of the con-
tractor. He had not stated that the Comptroller had
represented the young man as i❑ his 22d year, hut that it
was represented to Eirl Grey at the time of the apuli-
cation for the appointment that he was so He appealed
to the Right Hon. and G .11 tnt General opposite, whether,
in the note be had written this morning, he had not said
that he should not object to an inquiry. [Sir H. liar-
dinge assented] The only ground on which he doubted
of the propriety of it was whether it would be right, while
person remained lia le to an action for penalties, to go
into this inquiry. He must say that the tone of the
Right Hon. B a-one', in assuming that the Government
had been guilty of what, he admitted, would have been a
gross act of misconduct, in appointing the nephew of the
nominal, and the son of the real contractor, was most un-
warranted.

Mr. O'CONNELL—The assent to the Committee was
the best answer t die charge --(Hear, near.) There
was no reason why Sir J. Key should have been allowed
to shrink from that House, and disappoint inquiry. The
statement was that lie had, by misrepresentation, got his
son appointed to an office where lie would have to look
over paper that the lather hail contracted to furnish.
This was the first trait of the reformed Parliament. He
had hoped that this we'll.' not have taken place in a re-
formed House of Commons, for the son of a M tuber to
get a place, not from his merits, but his gross demerits—
for his age and connection were demerits. He remem
tiered that Sir John Key hail voted for the Coercion Bill
and for rescinding the vote on the milt tax ; and then it
appeared that his son got a place from the Government of
4001. a year. This getting of places fir the suns of
Members, of independent Members re-pres-nting great
constituencies, representing the city of Dublin—(Loud
laughter)—he had said Dublin, he meant London—• e
did not think the son of either of the Members for Dublin
was likely to get a place. There was no use in having a
refiirrned Pali intent if traffic cef this sort was to go on.
Mr. STANLEY was highly gratified that his Nob'e
Friend had de ermined on granting a Committee—(Hear,
hear)—as he was satisfied that the fuller and the ampler
the inquiry, the more completely would he refuted the
implication and the tone of the two Right Hon. Gentlemen
opposete.—( Hear, hear.) An application, on a recom-
meeilation being made that a young and active person
should be employed, was made on behalf of a young gen-
tleman stated to he 22 years of age. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin would probably admit that it
was no disqualification that the person applying was a
supporter of the present Government.—(Hear, bear.)
Indeed, he had heard it charged again and again, as an
imputation on the present Government, that they did not
always appoint their supporters to office.—(Hear, hear.)
In this case an improper person had been appointed—he
was not of the age of 22, ; but it had not been represented
to the Government that be was of that age, and that he
was competent to do the duties of that orlier.—(H,ar,
hear.) His Noble Friend was afterwarls privately in-
formed of the real facts; for it should be recollected
that the cancelling of the appointment was no result
of an inquiry in that House, nor even of any threat
of inquiry.—(hear, hear, hear.) On the 28th of July
it was represented that the young man was only
eighteen years of age; on the 29th of Jut), a commu-
nication was made by his Noble Friend to the Stationary-
office, and on the next day Mr. Key resigned, and the
Treasury Minute, cancelling the appointment, was passed
before there was the least notice of any motion on the
subject.—(Cheers.) Here was the vindication of the
GOvernment.—(Hear.) He should not now stay to
inquire into the conduct of the officers of the St itionary-
office, nor of the Comptroller; he should only eay that
that gentleman was not an officer of the appointment of
the present Government.—( Hear, bear.) If he had
inisconducted himself, they ought not to be made respon-
sible fur him ; but with respect to the cancelling of the
appointment, they had a right to claim the benefit of the
credit of that act.---(Hear, hear.) He should now say a
word as to the connection of the young man with the
contractor. The name of Sir John Key was not in the
contract. It ws ea..), to evade the law, if the rel itions
and friends of the real contr,ctor would determine on
committing the baud, of putting themsehea forward as
the contractors; but a contract was not a matter of ap-
pointment, but of legal tender and acceptance.—( Hear,
hear.) It was the result of a public, fair, and open
competition. It did so happen, too, that the contract
for this yeae was five per cent. lower than for the last
year. The person who made the lowest bidding obtained
it. That person happened to be Mr. Kw. It did not
necessarily appear h. fore the Te ea-u y—and,in f ict, it was
not known there—that the applicant for the offiee was
related to the contractor. Whether that fact ought te.
have been reported to the Government, he need not now
stay to inquire; but it seemed to him that the Noble Lord
had wisely doubted as to the propriety of this inquiry,
while Sir J. Key remained Hat leto an action for petiaitie-.
Lord STORMONT asked wnether the Government
knew, when they made the appointment, that the young
man's uncle was the con• ractur ?

Lord ALT HORP answered in the negative.
Sir H. HARDINGE did not think that Sir John IC,),
would be placed by this inquiry in a worse situation than,
he was now in with respect to the penalties. He should

Mr. BARNARD propr,sed a clause, extending to slave
apprentices the laws of the colony relating to free appren-
tices.
Mr. STANLEY opposed it on the same groursd, adding
that the laws in the colonies, as regarded apprentices.,
were not similar to the laws in the mother country.

After a few words from Mr. BRl.cor, and Sir F.
BURDETT, Mr. Barnard withdrew hi 4 clause.

Mr. F. BUXTON so ,gested another amendment t) a
subsequent part of the Bill. He moved that, after the
date of the passing of the Bill, all children born, or under
six years of age should be entitled to their freedom.
Mr. STANLEY put it as a matter of humanity, whe-
ther the children should be turned loose upon the world,
and for the sake of being called theoretically free; exposed
to starvation, or should b, theoretically apprenticed; and
duly provided with food and cl thing.. . .

Dr: LUSHINGTON would recommend that the.ries-
stitute children should be maintained out of this fund,
and he believed that the number would be very few. He
thou At that the system of apprenticeship wou d be pro.
duc•ive n 1 much injury to the children.
Mr. STANLEY argued that the case was sufficiently
provided for in the Bill, and that the cases in which any
abuse could he committed would be very few.
Dr. LUSHINGTON was by no means satisfied that
the vingl • special magistrate would duly inquire before a
child ,eas hound apprentice for 21 years. The destitution
of the child would often he made a mere pretence by the
master in order to obtain his servitude, and the clauses is
the Bill in this respect would be utterly nugatory.
Mr. BRISCOE for one, was resolved to take the sense
of the House on the subject.
Mr. F. BUXTON was of opinion that the master
ought to be bound, if necessary, to maintain the children
without apprenticeship. The obj-ct of his amendment
was, that if the parents were living, and the magistrate
should think that the child was not properly maintained,
the charge of supporting it should be thrown upon the
master.

Ai ter a few words from Mr. R. Gord,n, Mr. O'Dwyer,
Mr. Harvey, and Mr. F. Buxton, the Ginatnittee divided—

Ayes

Noes
Majority _35

On our re-admission we found

Mr. HARDY, in reference to the clause which fixed
the term of the apprenttceship., pt .posing that in the
case of females, it shluld expire at the ag. f eigrreen,
that bring a marriageable ag-, leavii,g it, as the Bill pro•
aided, to terminate at the age of twenty-one in the ct.e of
males.
Mr. STANLEY being opposed to the amendment, the
Committee again (liveried
Aye:
Noes 43
Majority ag..iost the al.endment
After a few words from Mr. BUXTON and Mr.
STANLEY, the 46,4 clause was agreed to.
Mr. STANLEY suggested that the 53,1 clause should
be struck out and a proviso inserte I, that the 52.1 of
George the Third should be continued to those colonies,
in which the provisions of that Act were still in operation.
—Agreed to.
Lord ALTHORP then moved certain resolutions as to
the mode of raising the twenty millions intended as com-
pensation to the colonists. From the low tone in which
his Lordship spoke, it was impos-ible fir us to determine
the ex let way in which the loan is to he ra•setl.
Lordship, however, we believe, that the loan was to
he raised by a tax on colonial produce, if Parliament
thought that the best way.

Mr. HUME hoped P irliament would never !agree 'to
such a tax on colonial produce. . .

Lord ALTHORP said that the contract far tii,, to sva.
open to competition.

• After a few words from Mr. HUME and Mr. WILKs,
the resolutions were agreed to.

The House resumed.—R port to be brought up to-
morrow.

TITHES' ARREAR (IRELAND) RILL.
After a qu.•stion from Mr. HUME, the House went
into Commit ee on the above Bill.

Mr. LITTLETON begeed to call the attention of the
House to die extent of the arrears of Irish tithes for 1831-
:32, and 33. Same weeks ago a Noble Friend of his had
called the attention of the House to the subject, but as he
was not perfectly a .vare of their extent, he was un ible to
satisfy the House as to their precise amount. On the I 1 th
of last month an Hon. Member called for the precise
amount of tithes, but all that could be done was to refer
him to returns that were erroneous, which did not include
lay impropriated tithes, nor those of 1831 32 ; but only
those of 1829 30. The whole amount of arrears due was
about 409,3001. The amount of last year was 104,2581.
from which was to he deducted 12,5001. collected with
areat d,fficultj, leaving the sum of 91,7581. In 1832,
he whole amount of ecclesiastical tithes was 600,0001. ;
but in consequence of difficulties and embarrassment in
collecting in 1831, in the southern districts of Irelaud,
300 0001. hid to be deducted from 1830, so that
adding the three years together, the amount would
be, in the present year, 1,124,8551.—(Hear, hear.)
With the reduction in this year of 15 per cent., and
of 25 per cent. in 1832, the gross amount of arrears would
be 993,8211. To provide for that arrear, he meant to
ask for Exchequer Bills to the amount of one million.
Atter detailing the mtchinery of the Bill, the Right Hon.
Gentleman stated it was the intention of Government to
propose alterations in the existing laws :-Ist. As to the
superior landlord, who might take the tithe, subject to the
15 per cent. ; 2.1. So as to enlarge the present grounds
of appeal, and allow the Lord-Lieutenant and Pi ivy
Council to order a Comtn'esioner, not only to look into
awards already made, but to receipts ; and 3d. To do
away with the necessity of producing title deeds, which
gave great offence to many ; and concluded by moving a
resolution, empowering his Majesty to raise " one million
by Exchequer Bills, for the payment of the arrears of
tithes of 1831 and 1832, subject to a deduction of 25 per
cent. ; and the arrears which might be due in 1833, sub-
jeet to a deduction of 15 per c.nt.; due and to be paid to
such persons as may be entitled to them."
Mr. 0 CONNELL said the Right Hon. Secretary had
stated that 12,0001 of arrears had been recovered. Might
lie u,k at what expense ? Had not the collection of these
12,000/. cost the Government no leas a sum than
25,000/. ?
Mr. LITTLETON replied, that the cost of the procla-
mation had been about 2,000/. ; but other expenses he
could not state, nor did he believe it possible ever oittinctly
to ascertai❑ them.

Atter a abort conversation between Sir R. Peel, Mr.
Hume, Mr. Littleton, Mr. Shaw, and Mr. O'Connell,
which it was impossible to understand in the gallery,
Mr. SHAW, till he really saw what the measu; e of
Government was, certainly was not prepared to find it
one which did 'a:justice to every party A 1 the present
trouble was owing to the vacillating conduct of the Go-
vernment, and to that want of firmuess and vigour which
characterised all its proceedings.
Sir 11. PEEL said, before this million was voted, it was
absolutely necessity they should undirstand the principle
iin which it was asked fur; so strange did it appear to him
to be, that he really was almost convinced that he was in
error himself upon the euhject. The pr ncip'e, as be
took it, watt to advance to lay and other tithe iiiiipropria-
tors, who might nut have received their tithes for two
years past, or who may nut receive them fur the present
year, this sum of money ; and t. e Crown was to he the
party advancing, and the party claiming an equivalent for
that advance at the expiration of five years, till which
period the amount was to be added to the Compo.i'i"
Fund, and of er all only to be paid off by in•talii:etnhts:t
Last year they hid gone on another princip i
which they nox proposed.
They bad gonell collect his tithe, on
this ptin-
ciple—that the incumbent w.is unable to co
•ind therefore the Crown should be cal ed upon to levy for
he Clergy.
tn g which
Mr. LITTLETON said something was whay
inaudible.
Sir
PEEL was understood to assent. II- aiinin d
the p.,licy wti ctiactua,ed the Km. andiLearned
..t• the University of Dublin, and could not hut al,t.it
hat his principle was good in many poirrs. He felt
.he Clergy of Ireland. But was there to be nu feeliii4
far the people of England, who hail honestly paid tb.ir

tithes ?—(Hear.) He should augur the worst pcssible
result turn the present vote, if the course now about to he
adopt, d should he allowed to be drawn into a precedent,
unl. pa it was followed up by a vicotous eff..rt to com-
pel p,yment from those from whom the money was really
due.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that when vigour was talked
of with regard to Ireland, it should he recollect. d if at
that hat been the system for the last 700 years. This
was the first time in which a more conciliatory syst-m
bad been adopted. Were the Government to blame for
adoring this filst step in the system of conctli ttion ?
N. What was the state of Ireland before it was
adopted ? There was one universal resistance to the
payment of tithes, and soldiers had I een obliged to
come from Cork to Aliddleton, to put down that resis-
tance. Attempts were made to enforce payment of tithes
by horse and foot, and the country was almost in a state of
civil war. The law processes were incessant.--(Hear,
hear.) In 1932 there were, in the Common Pleas
alone, 321 writs issued, and in 1833. these had in-
creased to 572.—(Hear, hear.) In 1832, of the
writs issued, only seven were at the suit of clergymen ;
but in 1833 there were 265, out t.f the whole number
issued. at their suit. This went on in the same to er
in all the three courts, so that there were nearly 3,000
processes at the time of the Coercion Bill. The country
was almost in a state of civil war, and the Govern ent
were obliged to interfere and prevent a ptedial insurrec-
tion. No Government bad acted uwre wise y than this
Government bad done in this instance ; and in his opinion
the advocates of the clergy, instead of blaming, ought to
praise them for the course they had pursued. Let th.s
vot, pass, and next Session let them agree to some measure
that would lessen the burden of the Church of Ireland
upon the people of that country. This money never
would be rep..id—who was there to pay it? Let them
give it at once. The landl. rds were not much to blame.
Were they to be made liable for their tithes and be trice•e
tithe proctors? It so, let it be so stated at once. H-
heartily concurred with the vote for a niiilion.—(A
laugh) Let them grant this million at.d put cha-e peac-
with it. It would be a cheap purchase ; and then let
them continue the system of conciliation thus begun, and
make Ireland pro-perous an.l harpy.
_ _

Sir. R. INGLIS said the Hun. and Learned Member
called this the bust sup in the system of conciliatiun to-
wards Ireland. Was not the measuie of 1829 so regarded
by him at the time it passed ? Had nut the measures of
1793 and 1778 been so regarded? In every one of these
instances the measure had been called the first step towards
conciliation, and that expression had been kept up till
each measure was passed ; but immediately afterwards it
was forgotten, and a new grievance was starred, and every
previous attempt at conciliation was then denied. He
ofj cted to the principle of the present urea-ure, for he
lurked upon it but as a premium to disobedience of the
law. Ile feared, too, that in that, as in other instances,
the demand and the supply would be found to equal each
other; and every three year-, he had no, doubt, they
would see the Irish Secretary coining down to the Huse
with a proposition like the present. Protesting, diet, fire,
against ti e f rincipl.-, and against every u-e that might be
made of this precedent hereafrer, he should reserve his
objections to the details of the measure till they came fairly
bet re the House.

11Ir. DIVETT oh'erved that all the arguments of the
lion. and Learned Alember for Dublin showed his belief
that the ,utti now advanced would no he repaid. Af er
that, could that Houk be called on to vote one million ul
Exchequer ails, and to do what ? Why to bolst,er up
tie Church of Ireland—a church against which all the
feelings of the Iri-h people were arrayed.

Mr. SINCLAIR th: u.ht that the House seem-d to
have scarcely any other du y to perform than that of voting
away milk, Mr or the public money—a system which it
was high time to cheek. He considered this giant as
vet), impolitic and uojust—impolitic, bre use it operated
as an encouragement to resistance hot!) active and passive
—unjust, because the loss would ihevitatily fa 1 upon the
people of Scotiand tend of England, who bad obeyed the
laws, and paid their lull share of all the public burdens,
including the dues of their own rhergy. It was also bard
upon such of the List) people as had already paid their
own tithes, and wou d now Lave to contribute towards
making up the deficiencies of their noire Teti actory neigh-
bours. It was not to be expected, cur would it be just,
that the advance should ever be reimbursed by the Irish
landlords—or could be recovered by them from their indi-
gent and resisting tenantry.
31r. E believed that this money would be lost to
England. And for what was it to be paid ? To bolster
up the church establishment against the best feelings of
the country. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
asked them to give the money at once, in order to con-
tinue the non-payment of tithes for another year, and
then they would never be paid again. He (Mo. Hume)
bad always told them that that would be the case. The
people tit England would do the bathe, and if they were
to be called on to pay what other people ought to have
paid, they would be silt' not to do it. They were now
distinctly told that the money never would be repaid.
Uttar these circumstances, could they think of granting
it ? The whole scheme of repayment ought first to be
laid before them. He should propose, therefore, that the
Chairman should report progress, in order to give the Mi-
nisters time to lay the Bill before the House, that they
might term the r own judgment on the matter.
Lord ALTHOM) said that the passing of the resolu-
tion must be preparatory to bringing in the Bill, and when
the House saw the Bill, if they did not think that there
were any means of recov, ring the money, it would be in
their power to reject the Bill at any stage of its progress.
At the tone that this measure was that announced, it was
stated that the Government intended to bring forward a
proposition which wth.ld prevent the future collection of
tithes in the old way. The continuance of that system
then bra trued creating the utmost confusion in the coun.
try. He could assure the House that they came with the
expectation and the ceternitnation that the raeasuie they
intended to propose should procure the repayment of this
advance —( Hear, hear.) 1t the occupying tenant was to
be made to repay it, the satne cousequences as before won!cl
follow from the same causes. They proposed, then lore, to
follow a diff rent course. They intended to loliow up the
Conipositien Bill of he last Session. if they were right in
passing that Bill, the application of the sane principle ern
a more extended scale must be advantageous. The tithes on
this year would be spread over a period of five pars, anti
would be edited to the amount of the composition for tithes.
The advance would be made to the clergy, who, on oh
taming the composition, would repay it to the Govern.
ment. This sutu would therefore he added to the amount
of the composttion which the clergyman would be entitlett
to receive. It did nut appear to him that the Govern
went was in any danger tit not being repaid. The ti bee
loss by the tenantry quitting the land, could not of course
be levied on the lautiluid, but must he considered as totally
lust, and no deduction could be made by the clergyman or.
accouut of them. He did not wish to call on tile people
of England to pay fur the people of Ireland. He should,
th, re ore, put his cane on ibis issue, that if the House
Were nut satisfied that ample provision would be matte fur
the r payment ut tow money, they ought not to adopt the
Lib ; but it they saw a reahunatoe probability of the money
being recovered, then he thought they would agree with
him that it would be good policy to make the advance,
and prevent the old mode of collecting tithes from being
again resored to in Ireland.
isi r. AGLI NBY agreed with those who thought that
this would be a grant and not a loan, and believed that it
once adopted, this course must eternally go on while the
church eatathisnuient was forced upon the majority of the
Irish people against their will.
Mr. WALKER said that if the matter was as the Noble
Lord supposed, there could be no objection to the House
adding to the resolution toat they agreed to it on the con
tiogrncy that this Bill, when produced, should satisfacttnily
pruvede for the repayment of the loan. Ministers could
not be ignorant that tbere was a strong feeling anionkst
the people o England against tithe, especially in the agri-
culiutto district,

Lori ALT ROM' remarked that the resolution would
be nothing but wage paper, unless it were followed up by
a Bill to be approved by P,Lriiainent.
M. PARROTT, without any feeling hostile to Minis-
ters ur*ed hem to witlidiaw the resolution.

L. ALTHORP added, that the adoption of the Bill,
to be fountleti upon the iesoluti.m, would of course depend
upon the kind of security it offered fur the money ; that
security were not approved the Bill might be rejected.
The toms of the House required that the vote should first
be brought forward in the shape of a te,olution.
Mr. 13M:N(20E said, that if the reso ution were merely
waste paper. it was needless for the Committee to be cello'
upon to vote in tavuur of it. The One million required
yeas to pay the arrear of tithes in 1831, 1832, and 1833,
with certain deductions st so much per cent. ; and it
really seemed as if the /louse of Commons had nothing it,
du but to vote away the public moue), without at all
inquiring where that money was to come from.
Mr. HALCOMH supported the resolu ion.

Lu:d DUNCANNON übserv.d, that his I\lid,le Frien
Ltd only meant that the te o talon uki I.e wa. pave
if it were nut I.lluwed up and eatried into effect by a Biii.

Mr. 0 CONELL druirtl that there was dny »unil nth
Letwien thi• loan ..nd the gift to the West hold
Tue Huse was at tot times ready to give beim)
iron sleel, but jubt as reluctant to afford her silver or
gold.
Lord J. RUSSELL adverted to the alternative offered

—either to leave the Clergy of Ireland unpaid, which
would be an admitted injustice t" present incumbents, or
to proceed with the present method of collecting tithes.
After the proceedings of the last year, after the military
force of the country had been employed for the purpose,
and employed in vain, he did not think it would be
prudent longer to adhere to that system.
Mr. HUME contended, that the present was merely a
temporary measure—to answer the immediate purpose of
Ministers—which would never give permanent peace to
Ireland. He especially objected to the grant of 220,0001.
for lay inwropriators.
Mr. LITTLETON regretted that the objectors to this
plan had not fasoured the House with any suegestion in-
stead of it. If this resolution were rejected, the fault
would not lie with the Government, but vi ith the House.

CAYLEY was oppo,ed to the attempt to throw
the lird. ns upon the landlords of Ireland.

The Committee divided—
For the Resolution
Against it .
Majority -36
ESTIAIA I ES.

On our return to the G,llery, Mr. BERNAL had
brought up the report on the militia estimates.
Mr. HUME objected—that the money would be en
tirely thrown away—that the militia had cost 'he country
six millions since the Peace—and that it was not in a
condition to be able to give so large a sum for nothing.
M. E. ELLICE justified the vote, and said it was to
pay the half pay and pensions of officers formerly on the
st,iff of the militia.

Sir R. PEEL suggested the necessity of a total change
in the law relating to hallotting and providing substitutes
for the militia. It was neither adapted to a state of war
or peace in the present condition of society.—(Cheers.)
The re•olutinn was agreed to.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS

Lord J. RUSSELL said, it was not his intention, at
this advanced period of the session, to bring in a measure
to prevent bribery at elections, especially as he understood
was likely to be resisted. He alluded to the difficulty
he had experienced in settling the true definition of bribery.
He hoped to he fully prepared next year.
Sir R. PEEL alluded to the conflicting decisions of
Committees as to what was or what was not bribery, and
to the inconvenience and injustice that had arisen from
them. One Committee had determined that to pay up a
voter's rates was bribery, while another had held the
contrary. It was doubtful even whether the payment of
the shilling for registration was nit bribery. At all events
it was highly expedient that these inconsistencies should be
reconciled.—( Cheers )

The order of the day for bEngin¢ in the Bill was dis-
chareed on the motion 01 Lord J. RUSSELL.

The rt port on the As,essed Taxes Bill was received, the
several amendments agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be
read a third time to-day.

Sir C BURRELL moved the second reading of the
Labour Rate Bill.

Mr. C. BULLER of jected to the Bill and moved, as an
amendment, that it be read a second time that day three
months.

An HoN. MEMBER said, that the Bill had worked well
in various parts of the country, and it should have his
support.

Mr. HUNIE wished for postponement, with a view to
further inquiry.
Lind ALTHORP had consented to the present Bill for
the short period of one year, in the confident expectation
that some general measure connected with the poor laws,
and for their amendment, would have been before now
introduced; and he was at present disposed to agree to it
tor another year, in the hope that before that time elapsed,
something general and beneficial would be accomplished.
He admitted it was but a palliative, yet still he anticipated
some benefit from it.

Sir IL H. INGLIS observed, that the view taken of
this subject by the Noble Lord opposite, was the most
unstatesmanlike he had ever beard. The N..ble Lord
admitted that he was willing to endure a given quantity
of evil, merely on the ground that its duration would be
short.

An How. MEMBER defended tie Bill, as one from
which he exp cred c n•iderahle benefit to the country.
Mr. STURT hoped it would not he agreed to, for he
felt assured that it would have the effect of destroying the
independenre of the labourer.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON thought the Bill bad in
principle. It might be beneficial to some particular pa-
rishes, but he thought it would have a most injurious
effect on the country at large, and he should, therefore,
oppose it. The subject would be ere long considered on
a broad bids, and he therefore hoped the House would
not allow the great princit le to be embarrassed by such
legislation as the present.
Mr. HALCONIR supported the measure.
Sir H. VERNEY objec ed to the Bill, both in a prac-
tical and theoret eal pint of view.
An How. MEMBER, whose name we could not ascertain,
supported the measure, as one to the decision of which
the whole agricultural interest were looking with the
greatest anxiety.
Sir C. BURRELL supported the measure.
After some further desultory discussion, the House
divided. when there app-ared—

For the second reading
Against it
Majority —l2

Mr. RIPPON gave notice that in the early part of the
next Session of PdrlLtinent, be would move for leave to
bring in a Bill to repeal that Act of Charles the 2d,
which renewed the attachment of legislative, and ju. icial
duties in the House of Peers, to th. high religious offices
of Archbishop, and Bishop, in the Church Establishment
of England.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
:he House adjourned at a quarter past two &dock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, AuGuar 5.

On the motion of Lord SUFFIELD, the Burglary Bill
wa. read a third time and passed.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL acquainted their Lordships
that the Commons had agreed to the Law Amendment Bill
wi h amendments.

BURGH POLICE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The Scotch Burgh Police Bill was read a third time
and passed.

Lord SUFFIELD presented a petition from Leeds,
praying for the equalization of duties, and the abolition
of bounties on sugar.

Lord AUCKLAND said he was sure that, in the pre-
merit presquie of difficulties, the House would not feel it to
he a question which ought to be pressed upon the attention
of the Government.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH had a petition to present
from the borough of Haiti•ton, praying that the elective
franchise of that borough might he reduced to 51., but,
owing to some infoimslity, the petition was not received.
The Nlarquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from Salmon, praying that the Scotch Burghs Bill might
not extend to that borough.
The Earl of GOSFORD presented a petition from the
Rev. Charles Woodhouse, praying for a revision of the
Liturgy.

Lord WYNFORD said the petitioner had a remedy in
his own hands. If he could not conscientiously subscribe
o the art,c'eg he was not compelled to do so.
Lord SUFFIELD eulogised the character of the peti-
tioner, and contended th .t an alteration would be satisfac-
tory to the consciences of iiisny strenuous churchmen.
Lord ELLENBOROUGII presented a petition from
Mr. C. Smith, who had filled a high situation in India,
.Lnd was now a creditor, through the remittable loan, on
the revenue of India. The petitioner stated that he, and
'hose in the same situation with hint, had always 'con-
sidered themselves as national creditors in as far as India
was concereed, and that he now felt that Nis claims would
he treated unjustly if the borne bondholders were put on a
superior footing to himself, as they would be by the East
India Charter Bill as it at present stood. The Noble
Lord strongly recommended the petition to the attention
of the House.

T e petition was read at leneth.
The Marquis 01 LANSDOWNE said that the truth
was, that the petitioner overlooked the advantages given
to the creditors on the Remittable Loan by the Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON thought the question
involved in the poit!ott one of much importance.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
A converea•ion occurred upon the subject of an amend-
lient in the above Bill, previous t.. its being carried down
to the Commons, between Earls GREY and WicrLow,
and Lord PLUNEET, but it Was inaudible.
PETITION OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition
from .he United Company of Merchants of England
radimt to the East Indies, objecting to certain p irts of
the 80l for the renewal of their Charter, and praying for
modifications therein.—The petition having been read at
length, the Noble Earl moved that it be laid on the table,
and should then move that the petitioners be heard by
their Counsel at the bar.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought there was no
ease in which Counsel bad been heard upon political
questions.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH objected to the hearing of
Cuun.tl bring roused, because the saute thing had been
dune by the lia.u.e lit Commobs.

The Eart Ut SHAFTESBURY said, that as the opinion
of tbeir Lordships appeared to be that it would net be
expedient to bear Counsel, he should not make the motion.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER BILL.
T►he Ma, (ill it{ of LANSDOWNE moved the order of th,
d y for the c .mmittal of the shove Bill.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH began by calling attention
to a speech of the Noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey) upon
the subject, delivered on the 18th of June, 1813, in
which the Noble Eail urged the impropriety of eoing into
such a question at so late a period of the session. Tne)
were now on the 6th of August just entering upon the
discussion of the principle of a measure fir more extensivs
in its character, for the measure proposed in 1813 Wes
only one to regulate the trade of India. What he wanted
was, that the alterations with regard to the Government
of India which had been so suddenly and um xpeetett4
proposed should be permitted to stand over till another
session. This he thought absolutely necessary to a wise
and safe legislation upon so difficult a subject, and i-
seemed to him that such a demand was not unreasonable,
anti that it would be for the advantage of the empire if his
Majesty's Ministers wou'd concede it. On a firmer occa-
sion be hail stated to their Lordships the fin social effect
of the proposed alteration. He bad shown that the in
creased charges thrown on the Government of India
would be 470 0001. Upon the calculations assumed he
took the present prospective deficit in the means of the
Government to meet the demands upon it at 500,000/. ;
so that that, added to the increased charges, would
make a present prospective deficit of 970,000.—(Hear,.
hear.) Then there were the intended reductions;
and admitting the civil expenditure of India to be reduced
by 650.000/., which would bring it dawn to the amount
in 1823, that would still leave a deficit of 320,0001. It
was calculated by some that the al eration would produce
an increase in tt e revenue, for which he would alloo
100,0001. But their Lordships would still perceive that
if be was correct in his views of this part of the question
a period of four or five years must el tpee before the re-
venues of lndi a would equal her expenditure, and that was
owing to the plan which his Majesty's Government bad
adopted, and now recommended to the sanction of their
Lordships. In its ptesent state he was sorry to say, it
the British power were to be expelled from India to.
morrow, it would leave behind it but little proof of its
beneficial rule in the intprovements which it would have
made in the country. He especially objected to that part
of the measure which referred to the trade of the East
India Company. In the sudden termination of the trading
character of the Company, and in the general changes in
the commercial regulations of India, consisted the great
d tference between this measure and the system intended to
have been proposed by the late Government; and from
which he apprehended much danger to the trade of this
country in the East. Tie consequences to the trade of the
metropolis at home was also such as in his opinion were
entitled to more consideration than they appeared to have re-
ceived at the hands of Ministers. The ships employed by
the Company would, he feared, he useless for any other de-
scription of trade. The docks too, which bad been built
especially as the depository of its commerce, and upon
which thousands of persons were dependant for their bread,
would at once cease to afford those persons employment.
And why should all this be ? 'Wilt were not means taken
to soften the blow which must fall upon all these people
rather than involve them in one common destruction?
By the arrangement now proposed two thirds of the trade
with India would be transferred at once from London to
the outports ; and this was to be done suddenly and un-
expectedly, almost without notice. The East India Com-
pany h id traded without injury to the discharge of its
functions as a Government, and, as he contended, ix ith
advantage to the country. The trade of the Company
enabled them to make their remittances in goods, which
was a great advantage to the inhabitants of Ind a, and
one which must he lost to them when the remittances
were made by bills. He wished next to draw their
Lordships' attention to the mat rial alteration proposed
to be made in the Government of India. He had been
accustomed to regard the eystem as the fruit of the
genius, the knowledge, the experience, and the wisdom of
men standing even at this day in the first rank of the
practical statesmen of the country. Not meaning to speak
disparagingly of those who now direc ed the affairs of
the empire, he would say that even they might condescend
to pay some deference to the opinions of such Statesmen
as Mr. Pitt and the first Lord Melville. By such men
this system was formed, and at a time too when the
attention of all Statesmen was directed to Indian affairs,
and when the first men the country had ever seen had
given to the suhject their hest attention. He contended
that the necessary effect of this measure would be nut
only to diminish the influence of the Company in this
country, but to de eriorate that power which w is neces
sary to its due and proper maintenance of the Government
of India. Anything that was likely to prejudice the in-
fluence of this great body in the public mind, either at
home or abroad, was in his (minima injudicious; hut for
his own part he was entirely at a loss to comprehend what
it was that had induced the Government to bring forward
so eat naive an alteration as that which this B 11 had in
view, and that, too, without the least intimation being
given to the directors of the Company and other persons
immediately and deeply interested in the matter. But it
was evident that there were provisions, in this Bill which
were highly derogatory to the Comp •ny. They were not
only deprived of the management ot the territorial re-
venues of India, but even the sale of their own property
was not intrusted to them. Now was there the least
reason for this? Again, this Bill dictated that a fixed
sum should be allotted for the payment of the
fficers of the Company ; but was not this accompanied
by a power of diminishing that sum, which would In its
effects so cripple and mutilate the exercise of the functions
of the East India Board as to leave the whole power in
the hands of the Governor General of India. The pre-
sent plan would, in fact, alter the present position of
India, for the double power that would be invested by
the measure in the two Birds, the one at home and the
other abroad, would revolution;ze tie whole of those ter-
ritories. The alteration proposed to be effected in the
Local Government of India w .s a matter of greatim-
portance. and to ti-at pisint, therefore, he would call their
Lordships' attention. If the proposed change were to be
made, all he could say was, that no man ot respectability,
talent, or integrity would accept the office of Gov. rnor of
a subordinate province, degraded and stripped of all power
and responsibility as it would he. So vast a power ought
not to be placed in the hands of the Governor General as
that proposed by the Bill to be placed in his bands. There
could be no doubt that the intention of the Government
at first was to put down all the Councils in the subordinate
Presidencies. They had for the present bandoned this
intention as far as regarded Madras and Bombay, because
the suppression of the Councils in those Presidencies was
inexpedient ; but he could not understand why one prin.
ciple was adopted with respect to these Presidencies and
another with regard to Agra. The advantage of a local
Council was, that all its proceedings were recoided, anti
that no step was taken or act passed without great pre•
viuus reflection and del.beration. There was also another
alteration which he viewed with apprehension : be
meant that which was to establish one uniform system
of legislation fir all descrip ion of persons, whether Euro.
peens, half castes, or natives, in India. Such a thing, he
was satisfied, would be impossible, for the laws that would
be applicable to one part of the population of that country
would be wholly inapplicable to the other. He also
strongly objected to the provision contained in this Bi I
for unresnicred intercourse with India, and allowing
Europeans ru has: up their residence there without
license. It vies wen known that men of capital never
went to Indi s ; but, if the license were done away with,
would not persons without either capital or character go
ti,ere and .ettle in the weever provinces, where the passive
and timid disposition ot the natives rendered them easy
subjtets for oppression? The restriction of the Supreme
Court ought only to be effected by Act of Parliament ;
for, although it was not faultless, yet, being the venerable
image of our Courts, though it prevented offences rather
than punished them, it was still the tetror of evil doers,
as it brought before them the image of that justice which
in this country was brought home alike to the poor as to
the rich. The Governor-General was to have the power
of abrogating both statute law and common law, except so
far as related to releasing the subjects of the King from
their allegiance; but he must say that a power so exten
sive was not only not required, but would be for the lenefit
of neither Europeans nor natives. He admitted that the
natives ought to be admitted to hold official appointments,
but he much feared they would be virtually exteutled by the
half castes, wire, though standing in a more advantageous
position in point of in crest, were still not equal to the
natives eittter in energy or activity of mind. The Noble
Lord also objected to the declaration with respect to the
abolition ot slavery. Such. a declaration was uncalled for.
The Nttble Lord thought that all the civil servatite of the
company ought first to serve in the army ; they would
then become acquainted with the country and the people,
and if it should turn out that a roan was unfit for the of-
tie,he wis4 appointed
.to. he could be sent back to the
army, and a more qualified person substituted in his
place.
When in office it was his into ntiun to i ave proposed sonic
such arrangement, and quite sure he was that unle s some
such plan was ac ed upon it would be impossible to obtain
other than very interior persons to fill the higher and more
important offices in India. He must also object to the
insult • ffered to the Company in tak ng the management of
their Coll, ge from under their control. Some alteration
ut the present system of correspondence was undoubtedly
called tor, and be h id intended to lessen the delay in that
particular by introducing the regulations adopted by the
Secretary of State. Indeed he bad contemplated eats-

Minting a communication with India by steam, for he was
fully impressed with the belief thq it was most essential to
he good government of India that every rain holding
office there should, as far as that was practicable, be
in-ought under the eye or within the reach of the Govern-
ment at home. The Noble Lard then move
as anin-
struction to the C;ommitt.e, that all the clauses contained
in the Bill relative to the alteration of the constitution and
powers of the local Councils in the several subordinate Pre-
sidencies of India be omitted.

The question having been put,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the Noble
Lord complained that the measure would inflict an injury
on persona who had embarked their capital on the faith
of the existing state of things. Now that might be the
else; but then came the question—were instances of in-
dividual hardship to stand in the way of the general
good ? No great change was ever effected yet, without
complaints of this sort being brought f irward ; but the,
the Government of India could not go on as iteatis at pre-
sent, he thought would be admitted on all hands. The
elan now proposed by Government was not calculated,
neither was it intended, to cast any slur or censure upon
the East India Company, who bad exercised with honour
and fidelity some of the highest functions which ever had
been delegated to any body of public men in this or any
other country. The N-ble Lord (Ell, nhorough) had ob-
iected to that clause of the Bill which gave power to the
East India Company to make four in place of three Presi-
dencies in India : but he could assure the Noble Lord that
that very clause had met with the moat decided approba
two of the East India Company. The Board of Directors
had decidedly agreed to that regulation, which gave the
Bo ird of Control a limited jurisdiction without in any way
interfering with the judicious management of the affairs of
India. If a diminution could be effected in the manage
went of the affairs of India, whether at the Board of
Control or at the Court of Di-ectors, not only would no
ibj,ction be made to it, but it would be the object of the
Government and the Board of Directors as speedily as
possible to have it accomplished. Indeed so much and
such lengthened discussions had taken place upon the sub-
ject, that he felt very unwilling to detain their Lordships
by entering further into it.—(Hear.) It was quite clew,
however, that it was always contemplated to give the
Supreme Council a very enlarged jurisdiction. He need
not refer to various documents to prove that fact; he need
not ref; r to the opinions of such men as Mr. Pitt and Mr.
Fox in justification of the present plan proposed by the
Government of this day; and he would therefore merely
refer to the Act of the 33d of George the Third to meet
the objections which had been raised by the Noble Lord
upon this part of the case. The object of the present
Act was merely to settle more definitively the question
now at issue, and thence it was that he could not under-
stand the objection made by the Noble Lord to the e,ta-
blishment of a fourth Presidency in India.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH—I never said that I cared
anything about the establishment of a fourth Presidency in
India. My obj .ction had quite a different tendency.
There was a Commissioner at Agra under the existing
system, who acted as a President, and what need of any
change ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then said that accord-
ing to the onservaiions of the Noble Lord, it signified
little whether a Governor or a Commissioner were to pre-
side over the destination of fourteen or fifteen millions of
people in the upper provinces of India. The Noble Lord
(E lentrorougt-i) had spent no inconsider ihle time in dilat-
ing upon the present state of the College of Haylebury,
and it, therefore, was incumbent upon him (the Marquis
of L insdowne) to say a ,ew words upon the subject. A
military education was, no doubt, useful in its way, but
military officers should not have the administration of
civil Hilaire in this or any other country. He would ob-
j ct to the giving an entirely military character to the go-
vernment of India. It should be civil as well as
military, in order to make India free, liberal, and indepen-
dent. Why, he would like to ask, shou'd the half castes
in India be excluded from civil or militaty offices
in India, when it was admitted by the Noble Lord (El-
lenborough) that the half castes were some of the ablest
and fi-test men for office in India ? If such persons were
excluded iron office, he considered that it would tend to
great insecurity in India. He would again say that lie
approved of the system of Haylebury College as far as it
went; and with respect to the other clauses of the Bill,
they would be matter for the future consideration of their
Lordships. T• e N ,ble Marquis cited the authotiry
of Mr. C. W. Wynn, who had given the chance of corn-
petition to every class amongst the scholars of Westmin-
ster school for civil offices in India, in order to compete
for si ttations in India. Such competition had taken place :
be sons of the lower and I igher orders had competed with
others for the chatter of writeraltips. The contest was felt
as touch by the boys at the school as by their pa-
rents, an i sure he was that the children of reep etab'e
parents would always compete with other+ for honours and
places in India. He was the friend of a rigo ous economy
in every system of tax ition, whether in England or in
India, and he would to the last continue to i.e of the same
opinion. He was of opinion that nothing had fallen fiom
the Noble Lord (Ellenhorough) which shou d induce their
Lordships, by dividieg the Bill, to interfere with the be-
nefits which would accrue from the Bill as now proposed
to confer essential benefits to India.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said it never bad been
intimated that the change now proposed should be effected :
on the contrary, their predecessors took every possible care
they could to prevent it. Let the House rsmem►'er that,
by the Charter of the East India Company, as a joint-
stock body, that Company had the right of trading to
India and to China, even if the government of India was
taken from then. He (.he Duke of Wedington) now
complained that that right was to be taken from the Com-
pany, and that by that step great injury would be done
to the finances of India.—(Hear, hear.) That state-
msnt would be amply borne out upon a reference to
the financial documents upon their Lordships' table.
But it hail been said by the Noble Marquis, that the
coin:Nereid transactions of the Company were fag falling
off; that in r:ality they were a losing concern. A
losing trade ! Why, the East India Company out of the
eeds of their commercial transactions paid the whole
of their dividends, 10i per cen'., upon their home bonds.
Farther it appeared from the official statement that at the
end of twenty years the Government of India we. indebted
to the commercial department no less a sum than
3,000,0001. That their Lordships would find to be the
case upon the face of the financial documents upon the
table. They would also find that through the funds to be
re ibz d upon their commercial assets, as calculated up to

1834, India wound be relieved to the extent of the remit-
table debt, 4170,1601 , and to the further extent of
240,1501. India, therefore, would be relieved through
he commercial branch to the amount of those two sums ;
but by the same documents it appeared that, under the
proposed plan, India on the other hand would be charged
pith

Dividends
Home Bond Debt _ 17,100

Compensation to Servants in India 56,000
Loss by Exchange 3441,9.26
Compensation to Servants at Home, about 300,000

Total 1,350,026
There would trieretore be a balance of 640,0001. to be
charted in addition to the present burdens upon the re-
venues of India. If that statement was true, and he firmly
believed it to be so, was nut his Noble Friend (Lord E.-
lenhorough) right in characterising this measure as one
postponing to an indefinite period any prospect of reduc-
lion ? But that was not the only loss which would be
occasioned by the plan. As the tea duties were at present
collected they rendered 3,000 000/. annually, and the c.nit
in collecting them was not more than 10 0001. He
iherefore apprehended that even should the consumption
of tea not tall off, and the duty be continued at the
same height as at present, still the Government would
receive far less money in consequence of the increase there
must necessarily fie in the cost of collection. But those
were not the only losses this plan w uld occasion. At
the present moment the Company employed actively a
capital of 14,000 0001.; that capital w-uld be thrown
out of employ and all the parts in which it had been used
must of course suffer. He had oil a previous occasion
pi esented a petition from 4,500 persons connected by
commerce with the East India Company, and was it no
loss when those persons would be directly injured by the
measure? Was it no loss, too, when in consequence of
the measure 200,0001. were to be given annually in
the shape of compensation for the deprivation of em•
ployment ? Were these things no losses? It was idle
t say so. He went further, and declared that he firmly
believed that it would be advantageous to the private
trader if the C rinpany were still to continue to trade.
The Noble Marquis hid complained of the tone in which his
Noble Friend (LerdEllenborough) had spoken of the manner
in which the East India Company had been treated by
the Government throughout this transaction. Now be
certainly concurred in what had fallen from his Noble
Friend. In every instance in which the Government was
firced to give way, it made the concession with as little
Niaoabslepr;roarsgeudisbywtihteh plan;ulueh asnadtishfaecthioard,
grace and favour as possible. The next point the Noble
Marquis remarked. upon was the constitution of the Go-
vernmentons were intended in the Bill as would
assimilateth le'
aa that such
d aufurio :I ft
the
alterations
great
,vith that proposed by the measure of 1813. Tue Noble
Duke then referred to the 46 h clause of the Bill under
consideration, and to the words of the 33d of Geo. 111.,
but be spoke in so low g tone of voice that we were an.