The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-19 00:00:00

NEW HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Viscount DUNCAN wished to ask the Member for
Lancaster, when the New House of Commons would be
ready for the reception of Members; whether the gild-
ing of the roof, and other costly decorations of the New
House of Commons, had been introduced under the
sanction and by the order of the Commissioners of the
New Palace of Westminster, and what provision had been
made for a better supply of water in case of any future
accident by fire?
Mr. GREENE, in reply to the first question, could
state what Mr. Barry had written him, which was
this—" As soon as the walls are sufficiently dry—(A

lsugh)—we shall proceed with the finishing, which may
be completed by Whitsuntide." With regard to the
second question, he could only say that the Committee-
rooms of the new House of Commons should bo fitted up
as plain as possible, so as to be in as strong contrast with
the House of Lords as possible.—(Laughter.) The
Commissioners, however, certainly -did authorise the in-
troduction of painted glass. With regard to the last
question, he had simply to state that neither Mr. Barry
nor the Commissioners had anything to do with the
supply of water.
Mr. THORNELY wished to know if the Commis-
sioners bad ever thought of gaining a supply of water
from the River Thames in case of fire?
Mr. GREENE repeated what he had already stated,
that the supply of water rested entirely with the Woods
and Forests.

CASE OF MR. LEWIN.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR asked the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary of State for the Home Department
if he could give him any information on the subject of
Mr. Lewin's case.
Sir G. GREY said he had received a report from the
Police Commissioners' which:represented that the person
to whom the Hon. Gentleman referred was arrested
with another in the park, on suspicion of picking pockets.
The other had been convicted, and was now undergoing
his sentence.—(A laugh.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR—Does the Right Hon. Gentle-
man mean to say that the person I alluded to was tried
and convicted?
Sir G. GREY did not know which of these persons
the Hon. Gentleman referred to.—(A. laugh.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said he would repeat his question
some other evening, as it was no laughing matter to
confine a young man in prison for nothing.
BUSINESS OF TO-NIGHT.
Mr. ROCHE wished to know if Government intended
to proceed with the adjourned de bate to-night if thelmo-
tion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Carlow extended beyond ten o'clock?
Sir G. GREY replied in the negative; but if the mc-
tion terminated before ten o'clock the adjourned debate
would be brought on.
Mr. ROCHE, under those circumstances, would be
glad to know if the Hon. and Learned Member for
Youghal intended to bring his important motion on
to-night respecting the Raja of Sattara?
Mr. C. ANSTEY had certainly promised to give
way in favour of the adjourned debate, but it was only
on condition that other lion. Gentlemen who had
notices on the paper did the same; and as that con-
dition had not been fulfilled, he should go on with his
motion to-night.
After some further observations, the subject dropped.
MUSIC LICENCES.
Mr. STANFORD asked the Secretary of State for
the Home Department whether he had it in contempla-
tion to bring in a Bill to amend the Act 25 George 11.,
c. 26, in order to invest a discretionary power in the
Middlesex magistrates of granting licences for music se-
parate from dancing licences ?
Sir GEORGE GREY said, it was not his intention to
bring in a Bill on the subject, nor had the magistrates
expressed any wish that such a Bill should bo intro-
duced.

BOARD OF CUSTOMS.
Mr. MITCHELL postponed his motion for a Select
Committee to inquire into the constitution and manage-
ment of the Board of Customs, until Friday, the 21st
instant.
TITHE RENT-CHARGES IN IRELAND.
Mr. SADLEIR rose to bring forward the following
motion, and his appearance occasioned a rush of Members
out of the House:—" That it is expedient to substitute
for the existing mode of varying the amount of tithe
rent charges in Ireland a sett-acting system, whereby
the amount of all tithe rent-charges in Ireland shall be
increased or diminished every year, according to the
average prices of corn, as ascertained by public advetise-
went, in a manner similar to the existing method of
varying tithe rent-charges in England and Wales." The
Hon. Member observed that this was a subject of
very great importance, not only to the owners, but
to the occupiers of land. He was ready to admit that
the direct effect of this motion was to ask the House
for a distinct expression of its condemnation of the
system provided by the Legislature for the alteration
of tithe rent-charges in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
It would be sufficient for him to say, with regard
to the history of Irish tithes, that the Legislature at the
period substituted for tithes in that country a compo-
sition, and then again for that composition perpetual
rent-charges, which were generally called tithe rent
charges. There was no concealing the fact that
all questions of Irish legislation were determined by the
views and opinions of English Members. The nu-
merical strength of the Irish Members was
wholly unavailing as far as regarded any
general question of legislation, and hence it
was necessary that when any measure for Ireland
came before the House, the English Members
should bo made acquainted with the whole
local and other circumstanes connected with it.

The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded at some length to
state the details of the Tithe Composition Act, which
was passed in 1823—the 4th George IV.;
e. 99.
By this Act the averages were taken from the seven
years immediately preceding the year 1821. The next
Act was passed the year after—the sth George IV.
Instead
of the tithe rent charge being regulated by the
actual price of corn in the neighbourhood, it was settled
upon the prices advertised in the Dublin Gazette. By
the Act of 2d and 3d of William IV., c. 95, the composi-
tion was to be regulated by the then prices of corn.
Other regulations had been established by the 6th sec-
tion, which he would read. The Hon. Member then
proceeded to read the sections of the Act in order to
show the average price of wheat within the county.
He also quoted the Ist and 2d Vic., -passed in 1838, the
object of which was to carry this out. These several
regulations brought him to the point which be was de-
sirous to attain, viz., that the rent-charge should bo
equal in its proportion to the prico of corn. In
England this point was perfectly understood, and the
matter was easily settled ; but in Ireland
the thing was totally different. Everybody knew that
the Gave,. gave no real criterion of the price
of corn in the district. Now it should be
understood that no one in an agricultural district
could possibly know or act upon the instructions
published in the Dublin Gazette. The regulation walls
therefore useless and unnecessary. From what be b d
shown it was clearly proved that *CM could be no
But it
knowledge of this price in the Gazette.
was answered, that according to the Area notice was
to be posted upon the doors of t places of
worship indicating this price. Of what use was such a
notice as this, when it was recollected that in
on many
which in.
stances there were no places of worship
How, then,
these notices could be posted?
could the inhabitants know what the price
of wheat really was? rhe lion. Gentleman then went
through a series of calculations in order to show that
while the prico published in the Gazeltte was 38s. 80.,
the real money obtained vras litt e more than
:;+)i. Well, then, in order to oht;dit the at.
lows IMP npeessary bete.- twit price?.
it 'nests3ary
Ikßye ,k cfrtific2tkv properly certified
wa
as to the circumstances of the case. This MO no
small ()woos ; but there wee a greater cue. This

certificate was to be backed by some person who
would sdd his own certificate of the truth of
~he representation which he made. Then there was the
evidence of Mr. Ford, by which it appeared that this re-
gulation was de facto a perfect humbug.—(,Laughter.)
He trested that the time was not far distant
when the tithe rent-charge in Ireland would
be made redeemable by legislative enactment,
being convinced tbat it would be productive of
the best effects. It would relieve many scruples in
the Encumbered Estates Courts, especially among
Quakers, English as well:as Irish. It was argued that If his
(Mr. Sadleir's) proposition was adopted some ministers of
the Established Church in Ireland would be left without any
income. But the answer to that objection was, that the
revenues of that Church were not equally divided among the
working clergy. Before the poor-law, however, the working
clergy, on 150/. a year, had, in many cases, to keep up large
mansions, the income of the parish going to swell the funds
of some choral society in Detblin. At all events, if the in-
come of the working clergy was insufficient, a competence
ought to be secured to them. The ecclesiastical anomalies
that prevailed in Ireland were' a disgrace to the legislation
of the United Kingdom ; but of all countries under the sun,
Ireland was, perhaps, the only one where an acknowledged
evil, or wrong, as regarded tithe rent-charge, should be'
suffered—recovering as it was from a succession of famines,
and the landlords being, for the most part, Protestants.
He therefore c mceived that he was justified in calling on the
[louse to adopt the resolution he should propose. The Hon.
Gentleman then moved the resolution.

Sir G. GREY said the question was one of great com-
plexity, involving the construction of many Acts of Parlia-
ment, and therefore the House could not fairly pledge itself
to any course without first having before it the substance of
any Bill that might be brought forward with a view to
amend the existing law. The Hon. Gentleman had im-
ported m any extraneous topics into his argument, which
had no reference to the term of his resolutions, and this was
an additional reason why the House should refuse to pledge
itself to any particular course without previously having the
details of any proposed Bill before it. He was not prepared
to say that after an examination of the various Acts bearing
on the subject, if it should appear there were no insuperable
objections to the assimilation of the tithe-rent charge sys-
tem in England and Ireland, there would be any disposition
to pass over the subject on the part of Government. If the
Hon. Gentleman would move for leave to bring in a Bill on
the subject, he would say that the subject should have full
and fair attention. But again he repeated it would be in-
convenient to pledge the House to any particular course;
such as would be the case if it assented to the motion just
submitted.

Mr. HAMILTON considered, if the proposition were
carried, it wolld not materially affect the present occupiers
of land in Ireland. The landowners would be very un-
willing to gain any right that would give them an undue
advantage. The Honourable Member entered into details
to show that the tithe composition settlement which took
place in England and Ireland was not similar; for, in the
first instance, the tithe-owner got the full amount of his
tithe, deducting the expenses of collection ; whereas the
Irish tithe-owner had to submit to a reduction of 25 per
cent., which went into the pockets of the landowner. It
would be unjust, he considered, to interfere with the set-
tlement which had been arrived at, by any new legislation,
without taking the different circumstances connected
with the composition in Ireland and England into con-
sideration. He did not deny that improvement could be
effected in the existing system, but he thought that a sep-
tennial ought to be substituted for an annual adjustment of
tithe-rent. He hoped his Hon. Friend would withdraw his
resolution.

Mr. FRENCH would do nothing to promote the objects
of his Honourable Friend, and he should be sorry to sup-
port any measure or motion that would have the effect of
perpetuating the mischiefs of the Encumbered Estates
Act. He hoped his Hon. Friend would turn the question
over in his mind, with the view of founding a Bill on his
experience, because he believed there was no indisposition on
the part of the Government or the House to legislate on the
question.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD considered the existing difficulties in
taking the averages in order to determine the amount of
charge were so great, as practically to render the previous
legislation on the subject abortive. He recommended his
Hon. Friend to accept the proposition made by his Right
Hon. Friend.

Mr. H. GRATTAN advocated a septennial in preference
to an annual average, as mere equitable to all parties. His
Hon. Friend had objected to the operation of the Encumbered
Estates Bill He believed that the general opinion was, that
the Encumbered Estates Bill had operated as a robbery.—
(Oh I) He had read in the papers only the other day, that
an estate having a rental of 3801. a year could only gain a
bidding of 1,500/.
Mr. SADLEIR would not occupy any further time this ses•
sion in discussing the question. He had given notice at an
early period of the session to move for leave to bring in a Bill
on the subject, but he had been remonstrated with by many
Hon. Members for attempting to deal with a subject so large
that Government only ought to undertake it, and this
had induced him to give up his intention and to submit
his motion and his reasons in their present form. But since
he had received an intimation from Government that a Bill
if introduced by him would not meet with Government
opposition, and as he hoped that Government was disposed
to recognise the principle for which he contended, although
the task of introducing a measure of so much importance
was usually distasteful and objectionable to a private Member,
he would, on the encouragement held out, give his attention
to the question, with the view of introducing a measure on
the subject at an early period. With that understanding he
would withdraw his motion. _ _

.„...... ..........
Sir H. W. BARRON hoped Government would take up
the matter, as it was not, or ought not to be, a party
question, and Government were, therefore, bound to effect
practical good whenever they had an opportunity. The
question was not one of such immense difficulty as that
it could not be grappled with, even by the present Go-
vernment.