The Sun.
London, England, 1851-04-09 00:00:00

SUN,_ LONDON, WEDNESDAY

f London, such as Whitechapel and Shor
feta editch? This
a said pothin4
of the condition of a greet many ce'
the residences of the working people, in which there was
;as Ist one family in a room, but two, tutee, four, and, as
himself had seen, five families in a single room, four
„ke„tlPYing a corner each, and one in the Piaysi-
4"Y, nothing could be worse; but what was the moral
effect? In these houses or rather
of d'ffere!: t eing.le rooms, many
Irtnen males and females and of
,
the sure families, were crowded tegether, and all
tee
ihiceY. i
and any kind of education were utterly mpos-
t° i for even supposing that that the desire existed
impart education, it would he absolutely nugatory
41 account of the number of vicious examples which the
children
w, would have constantly before their ey
teees.
eat wonder, then, that in these receptacles nine-
e
a
tuB of the re at crimes, the burglaries and murders,
and all those sgcenes of violence which desolated society,
phculd be first conceived and hatched? Let any one
9ere to himself the physical state of so many persons,
eel°, or even 20 or 25 living together in one room.
4'e r this also in mind, that there was no one principle
whi,h
dit. of so evil an effect upon the sanitary con-
dition
°F the Population as overcrowding within a hmited
I'4°. Be laid stress on the sanitary condition of the
People, because every person who had the least ex..
Perienc
h e of the matter must see its intimate connexion
f their moral stare. He held in his hand a report
,feci the London Fever Hospital in 1845, which gave a
wqfeir sample of what he had stated. In this a room
as described, 33 feet 9 inches long and 20 feet wide, in
t0,1:441,_ 50, tand sometimes 90 or 100, people were crowded
u With no more room for respiration than was al-
ed in the hospital for three patients.—(Hear, hear.)
fiftblerre the consequence. Considerably more than one-
Part of the number of cases admitted into the fever
h°apiia
in that year were received from that room alone.
Ctear, hear.) They had abundant proofs of the
hs the of over-crowding in the investigations instituted
Board of Health. Such was the condition of
tb4Btt might be called the stationary population? But
was the state of the migratory population? The
of%rt of one of the commissioners stated the case of oe
ei gat receptacles for this class, in which there were
;10rei 113°faeliletalbyall let
separately. In one of these, which
10, beds were arranged on each side, corn-
27aed of straw, shavings, and rags, and in this room slept
Oar)" Males and females, 31 children, and two or
je dogs, In another room there were 32 human
heiegeti' all breathing the same pestilential air; the beds
lat: 80 close together that there was no room to pass
tsern them. This house was never cleaned or venti-
doubt and literally swarmed with vermin. This, no
Fie u; was (sae of the worst instauces. He hoped the
lea .41 would forgive him for enterieg into thee() details,
matt was _
pas 4 case which could not only be proved by ar-
ttliti:se,s' bat by fscts.—(Hear, hear.) This state of
Part; ee"" not confined to London, but pervaded many
pope the kingdom, particularly the great towns and
ilitilli,sosuitshdistricts. Ono of the inspectors of the Board
quoted a letter from a clergyman who described
ereetam' Maidstone, and Dover as being in a state ofd
Lipeeatidis,
wdeermsoiroalization; Birmingham, Manchester, and
a similar state. Of Birmingham he coul
effect from his own personal knowledge. But mark the
hips" on the labouring man, who might be earning, per-
teee's 153-, 205., or even 255. a week. It wwastparkaal'Y that he should lodge somewhere near his
eePtaettuld he, was driven to some one of these re-
handreees. What was the consequence? He had known
etir,l3 8 and hundreds of instances in which a man
tt liveitlikP in the prime of life, capable of earning not only
the -"°°d, but something beyond, and soon came on
eiiiicreish and sank into his grave, leaving his wife and
tee° rea Permanently chargeable. From Leeds he had
perßants stating one instance in which no less than eight
.a.,,,,ieubaatl,Were found sleeping in one bed, and another in
/eel eirte.o--
e ue persons occupied three beds. At Brad-
so4leol7°,°tY Persons were found occupying one room,
oat 4.1° beds, and some on the floor, and it appeared that
la Bhi aPveards of 60,000 inhabitants, 15,000 were lodg!cl
tokinshwaY• Ile would mention one other instance in
Whe„-", to show the necessity of taking some steps.
they opened the great thoroughfare from Oxford-
he, " to Holborn it swept away a vast number of small
agthugseseiss;rnedss wiorgetched dwellings; but while they were
the beauty of the town, they were ex-
popuria,tmg the misery endured by a large part of the
triet called There was a street in the Bloomsbury dis-
the ,"ed Church-lane, a wretched neighbourhood, and
thia""uhe of fever. In a room in one of the houses in
ram street a family was living, consisting of eight
tadees above twenty,five females above twenty, four males
ta; r twenty, and five females under twenty. On inquiry
al
%nee ve crowding was found to be caused by the clear-
/3W° on the formation of New Oxford-street. He
meintheir attention to this fact, in order to show.t thatsaat
ket'u_ great improvements were in progress was
Wet er of grave consideration whether some precautions
e not necessary to prevent the overcrowding of the
Vcrer classes and the engendering of typhus. The
a'ber of places examined and reported on by the in-
IPectors I,9lqwas 161, with an aggregate population of
Z-109, and he might venture to ray that hardly a
ile instance could be found in which the dwelling-
4°.usel of the working people approximated to decency.
IB intention was to make the Bill merely permissive.
'N
Hilt was to a great extent, a transcript of the Baths
f1,,,:g/oVoadshhhoau, seas Act, which, if it had not affected all
x ected, had worked extremely well—
was comingttwas
swelyp into operation, and he thought he
„,ht say that when it was more generally adopted it
-able
confer upon the country a benefit it was impos-
-,awle to estimate. It was first provided that the Act
''''Xht be adopted in towns and boroughs; next that the
r°llticil might adopt it; third, that the churchwarden,
0o the requisition of ten ratepayers, might convene a
teatrY to determine whether the Act shouid be adopted,
tZ:-teirds of the vestry being in favour of it, and
the overseers would be authorised to levy
such a rate as would be required to carry it out. The
v
Le,tries of two or more parishes might combine for the
urPeee of erecting lodging-houses, and by-laws were to
aoTade, subject to the revision of the Secretary of State,
no person receiving parish relief should be allowed
ijmue a tenant. Having had some experience of these
th„g,ing•houses he could state some of the good effects
4"' had resulted from their establishment. Nothing
thald be more remarkable than the cheerfulness with which
40 rent demanded was paid, the regularity and correct-
leeleal with which it was collected, and the system of al-
fe;„llg.,no arrears. Then, again, look at the freedom
disc disease, particularly all contagious and epidemic
in these lodging-houses. That was a matter of
eeiC" importance, because it showed that they met the
sauaaad placed the working people evidently iu a better
tbarY condition. Dr. Duncan, of Liverpool, stated
hBj 'e'Tn the registration of the existing lodging-
Tbep's had
that town had had a most desirable effects
leou'a nad been 150 cases of fever during the preys-
ilistsB„eef the late epidemic, and since the re-
the -"°11 only ninety cases had occurred, and
deaths from cholera had been reduced one-
St, In the model building that had been erected in
With; e°rges, Bloomsbury, for single men, and which is
cern a stone's throw of Church-lane, where the cholera
011 d 'bitted such ravages, not one death had occurred,
spo "IY one case of diarrhoea—(Hear, hear)—which had
thelmedily Yielded to medical treatment. It the people
Of tCirea were queationed, and were asked the history
the _ll' Past life and present state, it would be found that
souses'4rntage they enjoyed from the model lodging-
merew that the wages they earned they kept. They
0 Induced to remain at home, and it had been the
peeens? of reforming many. He had heard the same ex-
tol, k°ll frecriently repeated—" The wages we earn we
gratitude a;'o r they were full of the liveliest expressions of
the., f the accommodation, were afraid only that
those b net alight lose these advantages, and were hopeful that
blotats
, might be extended over all parts of the
the r°?°lte- Another advantage that had resulted from
s,,,tawPtll,areogs f buildings in Stretton street was, that there
enclosed court in which all the children were
e
the e " to congregate, by which they were kept from
6g ont atnination of the streets. One of the objections ey was that these people were charged a rent that
0850 ere unable to bear. Assuming that to be the
thie',lte Was convinced that the working man would be
and meet that increased rent by the superior health
tbne greater energy and diligence he could devote to
ftere'lling• Be had seen many instences of that. On a
eoe.eeletilation, the working man lost 30 days from ill-
ow° In the course of the year, and estimating that at
ere 3' Is. 6i. per day, there was 21. 55., but which was a
tua! deal more than any increase of rent he now paid.
th he denied that there was any increase of rent ; on
th:..contrary, there was a positive diminution, with more
adequate profit to the speculator. Now, in Snowe'a-
reeti_tia, Viestminater—a roost horrible place=the average
woe of each room was 2s. 4id. per week. Single men
ere •
cnaeged is. 6d. a week for half a bed, and often
pleral persons sleeping in the same room. The London
erlt labourers paid, it was ascertained, from 2s. to 45.
Ann week, the,average being as, per week. Now, what
ve,the It of these model lodging-houses? He
-del
Bloomsbury. There every
e„111(1 first take St. George'
itch had a compartment to himself, and for that he paid
bud Per night, and yet there was a clear profit upon the
they ing of 6} per cent. In the model lodging-houses
,5 gave every accommodation, a constant supply of
e 4 Ante
to each house, and for the Same rent exactly
eeoWas Paid for one in those wretched hovels. The
40'4 were from 34. 6d. to 75. per week. It was then.
that all these things should be left to private
houses
but that was generally directed to small houses
the 1f the cheapest description, as being
-eV to leave
tall©gest profit. These parties did not like to under-
e building model lodging houses, because they feared
eaeereaPonsibility of the superintendence and super-
titien that was required. Now,. the reduction of the
%el on bricks had greatly facilitated the erection of
we se
ouses.—(Cheers.) The abolition of the duty had
,eileeted
a reduction in the cost of erection of 15 per
hoil' But when they brought into operation the use of
t reduction would 'w bricks, which were not generally come into use,
gwould be equal to 25 per cent. Then a
tae w. vs, had been derived from the reduction. of
i„ („witido d
otret uty.—(Cheers.) Take the pile of buildings
the ton-street. All the rooms being under one roof
eon win ow duty would amount to from GO/. to 70/. per
eBeitllth, adding at least 255. per annum to the rent of
enabire°°T• The window duty being removed would
erno3 • them
e to let these houses without that great in-
Cs, cd`/ °` l'enf, and they would reduce the 7s. rooms to
should',
beand the 6s. rooms to ss. 61 These house, it
"'lreet remembered, were not of an eleemosynary
capit, but would afford an adequate return for the
see,,,cin `e lnvested. The object the association had in
setting 140418 f hg up these lodging-houses was to afford
to or imitation, and to show that they were likely
'4sPurt°re fu. Illy remunerative as investments for capital.
that I:e.nit had been established.—(Cheers.) The sum
kat
,;'4,o,een expended on these buildings was 20,7501.,
*Angell in improving, adapting, and fitting up three
exoe,,A,Oi old dwelling-houses. That made an entire
the"4tture of 23,0004 and the return, including all
buiaji'cl'easea of management, was 6 per cent.—the new
le perrigB brought 5i per cent., and the old ones about
and Cent One house they had kept as a curiosity
1,441ki illustration of the exorbitant and intolerable
'0 wag Wive. Olt VINO 1.0 Y?

Some of them realised not less than 30 per eent., end
most of them he wee convinced reape.] a very consider-
able profit. In many place.; esee the kuuckieg down of
a house at the end of a cal de sac was the moans of
letting in light and ventilation to a whole district. The
House would be encouraging associations for that pur-
pose if it only reduced the cost of those charters, and
gave the members limited liabilities. It should be
remembered that to cerry out these saniotry results
they must destroy as much as they built up. They
would be doing little if they left those abominable nests
of filth and disease—they must be swept away before
the new lodging-houses could do all the good they
were calculated to effect. Ile was extremely anxious
that the House should take the matter up, becauss
the question had excited the greatest sympathy
and attention, and the association had received
letters from all parts of the United States, asking them
to forward plans and estimates. He believed there were
few towns, either on the continent or in America, in
which a similar state of things did not exist; and he
trusted that that country would give an example to sur-
rounding nations, and show that it became a matter of
consideration with the Government. Ile did not think
that they could hope for any amelioration of the social
or moral condition of the people until their domiciliary
condition seas, if he might so term it, Christianised.
(heir.) Until they put an end to a system which gene-
rated disease, which crippled the energies of the work-
ing classes, and filled their workhouses with widows and
orphans--(Hear, hear)—it would be impossible to im-
prove the condition of the people. Ho was satisfied
that if this system was more generally acted upon, a
large proportion of the rates would be reduced. Look
at what had occurred in the time of the cholera. In
the model lodging-house of St. Pancras there were 500
persons living under tine roof. In a court called Peahen-
court, Bishopsgate-street, there were 150 persons re-
siding. The inspector of the association, Mr. Grainger,
went over that court, and said he was satisfied if the
cholera broke out, it would be sure to commit great, ra-
vages in that court. In three days afterwards it did break
out. In the model building at St. Pancras, where there
were 500 persons, there was not a single death, and in
Peahen-court there were seven deaths, and two being
heads of families, twelve orphans were thus thrown upon
the rates.—(Cheers.) In 95 unions he had ascertained
that there were 2,317 widows and orphans created by
the cholera, all of whom became permanently chargeable
upon the poor-rates. In Bradford, Leeds, Lambeth,
West Bromwich, and Wolverhampton, the increase of
the rates from that cause was very considerable. Now,
the cholera had done its work openly, but fever was, in
those low and ill-ventilated lodging-houses, doing its
work slowly but surely. Cholera killed its thousands,
but fever was killing its tens of thousands. His prayer
to the House was for leave to bring in a Bill to remove
some of the impediments to the energies of the working
classes. They had never yet tested properly the capa-
city of the working man, because hitherto he had been
placed in a disadvantageous position for the development
of his energies. He saw no reason why the working
men of that country should not surpass their bethren of
the United States—their wages were enormous, but their
expenditure, owing to the circumstances of their condi-
tion, was wild and ruinous in the extreme. Mr. Porter,
in a remarkable paper, termed Self-imposed Taxation,
had pointed out the expenditure of the working classes
in three articles alone, all of which might be dispensed
with, or at least much more moderately used—spirits,
beer, and tobacco. The sum of money expended by
the working classes in these three articles was no
less than 57,000,000/. per annum, and he believed that
estimate to be correct. Imagine that sum expended in
clothing, education, and the improvement of their dwel-
Begs, and would any one hesitate to say that by such
means the moral, social, and religious condition of the
people would be greatly elevated? and he felt assured
that God would bless the efforts that would be directed
to the advancement of the moral and intellectual well-
being of so large a portion of the human race.—(Loud
cheers.) The Noble Lord concluded by moving for leave
to bring in his Bill.
Mr. SLANEY felt that he should weaken the force of
the Noble Lord's statement by any lengthened remarks;
but having been a visitor of the dwellings of the poor, as
one of the Commissioners of the Board of Health, he
could corroborate the testimony of the Noble Lord. He
had heard a statement made respecting one court in
Wolverhampton, that the party had seen all the residents
in that court twice over transported.—(Hear, hear.) So
much for the moral character of the persons living in
these houses. He sincerely trusted the House would
sanction the passing of the Noble Lord's Bill, as it was
calculated to produce the most beneficial effects upon the
condition of the working classes. One great difficulty
arose from the law of partnership, which would require
the interposition of Parliament, and he did not think
they would hesitat eto give it their sanction. He would
only observe that the health of the working man was
his only property, and the Government was bound to
give that all the protection in its power.
Mr. HUME thought the statement of the Noble Lord
ought to make them ashamed of themselves for alloWing
such a state of things to exist as had been detailed in
the course of his speech. That state of things was caused
mainly by the bad legislation of that country. The
masses were brought up in the greatest ignorance, and
as a matter of course became vicious. The state f the
labouring classes in the United States, where every man
was educated, was a reproach to them. Were we taking
any means to remove this great evil? Improvement in
the physical condition of the people would lead to other
improvements. Was it possible to believe that such
scenes as those described by the Noble Lord could exist
in England? Foreigners would hardly credit the
statement, and yet it was too true. He feared that
Leeds, Manchester, and other great towns would afford
similar scenes. But where was the Government all this
time? He was not to be told that Government could not
interfere; he was quite aware Government did interfere
sometimes, and that when they did interfere it was only
to do injury. There must be a general move to abolish
that system which long misrule had created. All par-
ties, including the leaders of the people, must join to
give education to the masses, for without this it would
be impossible to expect permanent good. Ile entreated
her Majesty's Government to bestir themselves. He
was aware of the difficulties of the question; but if some
such plan as that recommended last session were acted
upon, he could not doubt that much real good would be
effected. The object of the Noble Lord was good, but
it was superficial. It was necessary to look to the
cause of the evil, and then to lay the axe to the root of
it. He considered the diffusion of education was the
best means of curing the evil.
Sir G. GREY fully agreed with the Noble and
Learned Lord that the system which produced such
overcrowding was most destructive to the people—not
only physically, but morally. As to the proposition for
a measure framed on the model of the Baths and Wash-
houses Act, much good might no doubt be expected by
such means; but this must not be depended on as a suf-
ficient cure for existing evils. Other means and mea-
sures for improving the condition of the people must be
resorted to. A great deal of good had already been
done by the construction of dwellings for the poor, and
he thought if associations of individuals were formed for
constructing such dwellings, more good would be done
than by Government interference. If the principle of
the Baths and Washhouses Act were adopted, he hoped
means would be taken to prevent the scale of rents from
being raised too high in the event of the establishment
being placed in the hands of commissioners. Not only
in towns but in the country, also, this subject was of
great importance. The evils of the country, from the
same causes, were quite as great as those in town, and
he was glad to find the subject had already attracted so
much attention that dwellings were being constructed in
some country districts for the accommodation of the
poor, without reference to the profits of those who con-
structed them. With respect to the education of the
people, he approved of the exertions which were making
to diffuse education; but he again considered that indi-
vidual efforts and combinations of individuals must be
looked to as the main means of diffusing education rather
than by the help of Government. He hoped what the
Noble Lord had stated would induce every one in his
own individual sphere to promote the great object that
all had in view.
Mr. STANFORD agreed with the principle laid down
by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that Government was not
the proper power to effect the objects contemplated by
the Noble Lord; but if individuals or associations were
to attempt the task, they would not succeed unless they
were protected by an Act of Parliament. He begged to
express his gratification to the Noble Lord for bringing
the subject forward. He was certain that until the people
were well housed and well clothed it was impossible to
expect any high moral or intellectual standard—it was
impossible to elevate the character of a people if they
were subject to privation and to insufficient accomo-
dation. He again begged to thank the Noble Lord for
bringing this important subject forward.
Mr. W. J. FOX said persons coming to London to
seek employment were compelled to house themselves in
those filthy dens, the cheap lodging-houses. By this
necessity the very minds of persons became debased, and
the advantages of previous education were annihilated.
One of the great sources of the evil was the conversion
of old houses by speculators into ;these lodging-houses,
which wus found to be one of the most profitable occu-
pations in the metropolis. So long as this and other
similar evils existed, it would be impossible to grapple
with the evils and the difficulties. The Noble Lord's
proposition, therefore, would not effect entire good—it
would only very gradually do away with the evil. He
considered that the subject matter did:call for the powers
of the Legislature, and it was not unworthy the attention.
of the Legislature to see that they who speculated in low
lodging-houses did not increase and perpetuate an evil of
such magnitude.
Lord C. HAMILTON considered that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had laid down the strict and proper limit for
Government to adopt in this important question. One,
of the m •
main difficulties of the case was the expense of
commencing
work. In one recent instance of a build-
ing company he knew that it cost them 1,2001. to obtain
a charter. If this -
expense was lessened
he e
hadex
ne
Mr. LABOUCHERE, referring thdoubte expenses
o
much of the present mischief would be remedied.
f
the charter to a building company, said it waspn strue
.the
expenses amounted to a
sum,'length
—and but that was owing
of the charter—its great
to the peculiar nature
—and the legal mistake in
its construction. But ordi-
nary charters were not eo expensive, though
he
ad-
mitted those expenses were higher than they ought to
be. and he should readily turn his attention to the best
means of reducing them. He considered that a charter
ought not to be encumbered with a heavy fine. If im.
proper to be granted, that ought to be a consideration for
Government. He titrAin said the expenses of charters
were too high, and ought to be reduced.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
STATE OF IRELAND.
Sir W. BARRON hoped the House would bear with
him while he attempted to describe the painful position
in which the great majority of the people were placed at
that moment. He would first describe the position of
Ireland in 1845, and compare it with her position at this
moment, lie took the period of 1845, because lime.

tliately after 1845 the three great causes to which the
present condition of Ireland Wag attributed took their
rise ; the first cause was the famine in 1846. the change
in the poor-laws, and the disastrous change in the corn-
laws inflicted immediately on that country. He would
commence with the poor-law and the state of the
poor. 1n1845 the poor-law taxation of Ireland amounted
to 310 0001. He found in 1840, according to official returns,
that the poor rate amounted to 1,500,710/., an increase
of taxation on that head alone of more than 1,200,0001,
Ha knew he should be told that 90,000 persons
less were receiving relief, but he was in a condition to
show this was the grossest delusion that had ever been
practised on the people. In 1849 Government were urged
to limit the out-door relief in. Ireland by forcing the
workhouse test on every man on the books. When a Bill
to that effect was passing through the House, he moved a
clause to the effect that out-door relief should cease after
January, 1851. Every Member agreed in the opinion
that the principle of the Bill of 1837, where no out-door
relief was given, should be returned to. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland pledged himself that
the principle should be adhered to, and he withdrew his
clause. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad kept his pro-
mise; and the boards of guardians had been impressed
with the necessity of providing workhouse accommoda-
tion, and adopting the workhouse test in all cases. The
boards of guardians had put the test to all the paupers
on their lists, and the consequence was that 90,000
persons fewer received relief. But this was no proof
that the poverty of the country had been reduced to that
extent. He denied that poverty bad been reduced
to that extent; for if out-door relief was again
introduced, there would not only be 90,000 on the
books again, but 120,000 would be within the limit.
There had been an increase of the in-door pauperism of
Ireland, and the tax for the relief of pauperism had in-
creased upwards of 1,200,0001. since 1845. The county
rates since the same year had increased 300,000/. Ac-
cording to Captain Lercom's report, the land under cul-
tivation was 1,139,000 acres less in 1840 than in 1847.
There had, therefore, been a loss of the produce of
those acres, which could not amount to a less sum than
6,600 000/. The importation of swine from Ireland to
this country had decreased in value since 1845 at least
1,000,0001., and the decrease iu the importation of sheep
imported was not less than 500,0001. What hope was
there for a country in which such an increase bad taken
place in the taxation, and such a decrease in its produc-
tion? The sales that had taken place under the En-
cumbered Estates Act showed that landed property had
fallen from 24 years' purchase to 14 yearsert ' purchaseen .
In Waterford the value of household property had fall
60 per cent. In fact, its trade was vanishing, its shop-
keepers were all but bankrupt, and the farmers in the
neighbourhood were in such distress as not to be able to
employ one labourer in place of four they employed
before 1845. In a letter of Dr. Murray, Catholic Arch-
bishop of Dublin, to one of his clezgymen on the subject
of a collection for the Catholic university, he stated,
that in the present impoverished condition of the city
of Dublin, he could not bring himself to call on t
poor labourer and struggling artizan for any contribu-
tion. In a free-trade newspaper—the only newspaper
patronised in Ireland by the Government, the Dublin
Evening Post—there was a paragraph in which it was
admitted that the agricultural distress of the country
was a formidable evil, and one for which there did not
appear any hope of a remedy. Since 1845 there had
been a great decrease in the number of coaches and
other public conveyances in Ireland, In Waterford,
previous to 1845, there used to be forty pairs of horses
kept for coaching, and now there were but sixteen pairs.
Of the two steamers that used to ply to and from Bris-
tol, one had been given up and the other was about to
be given up for want of support. A correspondent of
his, a Whig gentleman, who had made great sacrifices
for the party, writing to biro on the 24th February,
stated—" The report of the resignation of the Ministers
has just reached this, and I regret to say t it has
hat
been received with unusual satisfaction.—(Laughter.)
The Whigs have been very unfortunate in the govern-
ment of Ireland.—(Hear, heart.) Trade has been
smashed.—(' Hear, hear' from the Irish Members.)tenant The
landlords were ruined.—(Hear, hear.) The s
were broken.—(' Hear' from the same quarter.) The
labourers were in the poor-house, and such of. the people
as had the means were flying out of the kingdom by
parishes." The Irish nation, totally wrecked, was
be devoured by its own paupers. The cities, towns, and
villages were half deserted. The cottages of many of the
peasants were levelled to the ground, and their former
tenants were wandering about the country as beggars
and thieves. The emigration that was going on proved
the miserable condition of the country, and he was
alarmed when be considered the class who wee leaving
the country. Thep auper was left behind,r but the
farmer, with capital, was taking his leave. He fully
agreed with what Lord Stanley had said on this subject,
when addressing his friends a few nights ago. He be-
lieved nothing but extreme misery, or the prospect of it,
could drive an Irishman from the land of his birth.
Another, and perhaps the strongest proof of the wretched
state of Ireland, was the amount of offences against pro-
perty without violence. In 1845 the number was 5,686,
bat in 1849 it wes 23,179.—(Hear, hear.) He perceived
from the newspapers of that day that a deficiency had
occurred in the Customs revenue of Ireland to the
amount of 37,000/. In this country the Customs re-
venue had increased, but in Ireland it had diminished.
In the last month there had been in Ireland a deficiency
in the circulating medium of 120,000/. Did not such a
state of things demand inquiry ?—(Hear.) He hoped
Government were not unwilling to grapple with the
subject. If they admitted what he had said, and should
tell him that they had no remedy, they would confess
their impotence to govern the country. He begged
to move that a Select Committee be appointed to in-
quire into the present condition of Ireland, with a view
co suggest some remedy for the distress existing there.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said it was little known to the House
what was passing in some districts of Ireland. The case
of Kilrush had been brought under notice the other
night; and though he objected to the slur cast upon the
chairman in that instance—as a more honourable man
did not live—it was the truth that lla. in the pound had
already been paid for poor-rates, and now another rate
of 4s. 6d. further was added to it. But this was not all.
In the Callan union 15s. was paid in the pound,
leaving 4s. 61. only for the landlord. The
consequence was that the farmers threw up the
land and went to America, leaving the landlord
to pay the rate. The estimate fur the support of the
poor was 16s. 10d. in the electoral division with which
he was connected; and in the Kenmure union it was
11. 6s. He asked the Government how did they mean to
deal with the question? They had got 68,0001. from the
rate-in-aid this year. What would they do next year?
The multiplication of erime was awful. One gaol built
for 160 prisoners had now 600 within its walls, and its
annual cost was increased from 1,000/. to 6,000/. The
workhouses were equally crowded as the gaols: in the
city of Limerick alone there were 7,000 people in the
union, living on the poor-rates. The landlords of Ire-
land were driven by the terrible pressure to demand the
workhouse test. He called upon the Government to give
more weight, in the administration of the law, to the
local authorities; and he was satisfied the country gen-
tlemen would administer it better, and at less expense.
Last year the poor-law staff cost 17,000/.—more than a
third of all that was spent on the poor; all of which
might be saved if his proposition were adopted. He
supported the motion for a Committee.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said the Hon. Baronet who
introduced the motion had introduced it in an ingenious
manner. He said he attributed the distress of Ireland
to the famine, the corn-law, and the poor-law; but he
attacked the poor-law alone, and left the impression
that it was to that law alone the present misery of Ire-
land was to be traced.
Sir W. BARRON —No, no.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE—The Hon. Gentleman seemed
to refer to 1845 as a period of prosperity in Ireland; but
be (Sir W. Somerville) referred to the Member for the
University of Dublin, and also to the report of Lord
Devon's Commission, to show that in this year the condi-
tion of the labouring population of Ireland was the most
wretched and most miserable imaginable.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentlemen drew a comparison between the
amount of rates in 1848 and 1851, omitting the interme-
diate periods; but the returns of all the years would
show whether there was such an increase in the rates
and in the number of paupers. There were the ex-
penses of the poor-law in three years, and the numbers
relieved: --

Cost. Numbers relieved.
1848 ... .Z 425,000 ... 555,000
1849 ... 302,000 ... 290,000
1850 ... 247,000 ... 200,000
He (Sir W. Somerville) did not mean to say that Ireland
was in a prosperous state, but he did assert that the com-
parison of the Hon. Gentleman was not accurate. The
Hon. Gentleman said he had moved the omission of out-
door relief in the amended poor-law, but that he (Sir
W. Somerville) had opposed it. But the Hon. Baronet
was obliged to admit that the poor-law board had acted
up to the spirit of the law in every respect, and he cen-
sured that board for doing that which he did himself.
The Hon. Gentleman proved from Captain Larcom's re-
port, by some process he (Sir W. Somerville) did not
comprehend, that there was a decreased quantity of land
cultivated in Ireland; but as he (Sir W. Somerville) read
that report, he came to a contrary conclusion. Captain
Larcom's report did not exist in 1845—not until 1847.
This was the return :
TOTAL ACRES UNDER CULTIVATION.
1847 ... ... 5,238,575
1848 ... ... 5,108,062
1849 • ... 5,543,000
Sir W. BARRON said the Right lion. Gentleman had
misapprehended him. What he said was, that in corn
—including peas and wheat—Captain Larcom's returns,
in 1847, gave 8,313,579 acres under cultivation, while,
in 1849, 2,174,480 acres only were under such cultiva-
tion, leaving a deficit of 1,139,000 cures.
Sir W. SONIERVILLE.—It did not signify what was
the cultivation, so long as the land was cultivated; and
he thought green crops were all the better. The mean
result, however, was, that more land was under culti-
vation in 1849 than in 1847. There was the subject,
too, of the export of cattle. In dealing with the statis-
tics of that question also, his Hon. Friend had only taken
as much as suited hi; purpose. One useful description of
animal might have fallen off; but there were documents
on the table of the House to show that the exportation of
horses and other cattle had increased since 1849. Now,
he might urge from these that Ireland was in a state of
prosperity, but, he did not want to do any such thing,
although he wished he could avouch as much; all he
wanted to say was, that which he thought—namely,
that within the last two years, as compared with the two
mi,erable preceding ones, there was some improvement
and some amelioration in the condition of the country.—
(ll,str.) The Hon. Baronet had then branched off to his
own locality, and had told them that the county cess paid
by the City of Waterford was less than it was years ago.
Now he (Sir W. Somerville) did not mean to say from
that that the city was in a flourishing condition; what
he meant to say was, that picking out statements after
that manner was not the mode of furnishing the real facts
of the case, and argumento founded on ouch ought not to

have any weight in that House. His Hon. Friend, who
was at times somewhat fanciful in his vituperation of
the Government, had on one occasion attacked the
Ministry because a Bill which he (Sir W. Somerville)
had introduced had contained, as his Hon. Friend
supposed, some clauses which had been already
inserted in a Bill of his Hon. Friend's. He could
assure his Honourable Friend that not a single
clau,o of this Bill had been used. His Hon. Friend had
referred also to the emigration which had been going en,
as a proof of the great misery at present existing in
Ireland. He (Sir W. Somerville) was afraid it was not
a very healthy system; but it was only a session or two
ago, as they would all recollect, when they had motion
after motion in that House, not for the purpose of check-
ing, but of encouraging emigration.—(Loud cheers from
the Protectionists.) The Hon. Gentleman had also al-
luded to the amount of crime. There again he was at
issue with the Hon. Baronet, for, by the constabulary
returns on the table of the House he could notice a de-
crease. He was not going to compare the year 1845
with 1851; the Hon Baronet, if he pleased, might do so,
and lay the result before the House. He would compare
the years 1849 and 1850. The number of outrages
stated up to the end of January, 1849, were 1,820; Febru-
ary, 1,017; March, 990; while in 1850 the numbers were,
in January, 1,656; February, 1,124; and March, 960.—
(Hear.) Having, then, referred to all that had been
said by his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford, he
would next briefly advert to what the Honourable
Baronet the Member for Clare (Sir L. O'Brien)
had said. That Honourable Gentleman had found
fault with the poor-law because he thought the
power of the Commisssioners interfered too much with
the local boards. He did not think the Hon. Member
would get many in that House to agree with him on that
point. With respect to the allusion made to the Kilrush
union, and the statements made by the Rev. Mr. Os-
borne in reference to it, he would only say on that occa-
sion that the Poor-law Commissioners had called for full
information on the subject of that Rev. Gentleman's let-
ters, and when they shall have made their report, he
would lay it on the table of the House. The remarks of
that Rev. Gentleman on other unions had not been disre-
garded by the Poor-law Commissioners, and when the
answers to their inquiries from the various inspectors to
whom they had applied were duly made, he would lay
them all befcre the House.—(Hear, hear.) There was
one remark of his Hon. Friend to which he had not al-
luded. He had said that the affairs of Ireland were not
cared for here. Now he had just taken the trouble of
reading a list of the different commissions which had
been appointed to inquire into matters relating to Irish
affairs, and he found that since 1840 they had amounted
in number to 13. He had also looked at the number of
Committees of both Houses of Parliament which had
sat from 1840 to 1851, whose inquiries embraced every,
subject connected with the social and political condi-
tion of Ireland, and had found them no less than 63.
(Hear.) But there was nothing tangible in the proposal
of his lion. Friend; there was no intimation of what in-
quiry that Committee was to enter upon, supposing it
formed and sitting. He hoped the House would nega-
tive the proposal of the Hon. Gentleman, which was
only calculated to raise false hopes which never could be
realised. He opposed the motion simply because he
thought it would not do any good, but rather the re-
verse, and not from any indisposition to do anything to
benefit his country in every possible way; and, in con-
clusion, he trusted the House would not sanction the
proposition before it, because it was only calculated to
mislead, and create expectations which could not be sa-
tisfied.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. REYNOLDS said the lion. Baronet had stated
that there was nothing tangible in the speech of the Hon.
Baronet the Member for Waterford; he could say he
had listened to the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for
Ireland with much attention, and had the very same
fault to find with him.—(Hear.) The Right Hon.
Baronet had told them about thirteen committees had
been appointed to inquire into the state of Ireland.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE—I said 63.
Mr. REYNOLDS thanked the Right Hon. Baronet
for having multiplied the number by thirteen.—(Much
laughter.) He saw he was wrong in his multiplication
—(Laughter)—but had the Right Hon. Baronet in-
formed them what good these sixty-three Committees
and their inquiries had done for Ireland? It was always
the mode of shelving a grievance on Ireland to appoint
a Parliamentary Committee to inquire into it, and no-
thing more was heard of it. He would vote for the mo-
tion of the Hon. Boronet the Member for Waterford;
but he wished to guard himself against being bound by
the Hon. Baronet's speech.—(Hear.) If that speech
were good for anything, it was good for this—that we
were to repeal the poor-laws, go back to the system of
protection, and increase the power of the landlords. Now
he was not prepared to do any one of these things. In-
deed, he would perhaps have given a silent vote upon
that occasion, but for something which had fallen from
the Hon. Baronet the Member for Clare (Sir L. O'Brien)
in allusion to a most honoured and estimable Protestant
clergyman—he meant the Rev. Mr. Osborne. The Hon.
Baronet had said his statements ought to be received
with caution; now that was as much almost as doubting
his veracity. Mr. Osborne had undertaken to prove all
his statements relative to the Kilrush union; but his
challenge had never been accepted. The Hon. Baronet
had endeavoured to vidicate Colonel Vandeleur,
who, no doubt, might be a very estimable private
character; but there were statements made before a
Committee of that House which would go to bear out
the charges made against him. The Hon. Member here
referred to the report of the Committee of inquiry into
the state of the Kilrush union, and read a considerable
portion of the evidence. One witness had stated that in
that district 1,950 families had been sent adrift, whose
houses had been levelled, 408 families were there who
were turned out of their homes, and 341 families ad-
mitted again as care-takers. There were in all 2,359
families unhoused, representing no less than about
12.000 persons. Colonel Vandeleur was chairman of
the Kilrush union, and some of those evictions were
stated to have taken place on his property. Three-
fourths of the mortality, great as it was in Kilrush union,
arose from the want of food. It was said that prospe-
rity was reviving in Ireland. Was that so? Did the
condition of their gentry show reviving prosperity?
The Encumbered Estates Act answered the ques-
tion. Had they manufactures ? Had they com-
merce ? No. The country was in the most im-
poverished 'state, and the inhabitants were flying from
it in thousands. What had that House or the Govern-
ment done to remedy such a state of things? Why,
literally. nothing. He should be glad to know, then,
what objection the Government had to inquiring on the
subject as proposed by the motion. If no other result
were derived from such an inquiry than to ascertain
the causes of the fearful mortality in the Kilrush and
Ennistymon union, it would be of the greatest utility.
He would say no more on the matter, as the motion, of
which he had a notice on the paper, would afford him
another opportunity of referring to it.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said it was most unfair to
attribute the distress which prevailed at present in Ire-
land either to the free-trade system introduced in 1846,
or to the poor-lzw established in 1847. Any retura
upon their steps on either of those questions would be
ruinous to the most necessitous portion of the population
of Ireland—the working classes. The distress existed
long prior to either of those measures, as was shown by,
the report of the Devon Commission in 1845. He re-
gretted, however, that the Right Hon. Secretary for
Ireiand had opposed the motion. Admitting, as he did,
the great prevalence of distress, he (Mr. O'Connell)
thought the beat remedy would be to reform the stand-
ing orders of the House, which impeded the progress
of Bills for promoting private enterprise. But for the
obstructions thus offered,capital would flow into Ireland
to stimulate and develop its industrial resources.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD traced the existing distress in
Ireland to the disordered state of the relations between
landlord and tenant—(Oh, oh!)—and he should move to
add to the end of the resolution the following words:—
" More especially, to consider the best means of amend-
ing the laws relating to the relations of landlord and
tenaet.”
Sir W. BARRON had no objection to the addition.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, the House would not have
any clear remedy before it if it went into Committee of
the whole House on the motion submitted
into Commit to them. The
lion. Baronet proposes that we should goCommittee
of the whole House to consider the state of Ireland ; and
he refers more particularly to the famine, to the laws ad-
mitting the import of foreign corn, and to the poor-law
of Ireland; and it appears to him that if we were to re-
store protection, and repeal the poor-law of Ireland, we
should be in a fair way to remedy somo of the distresses
of Ireland. An Hon. Gentleman gets up and supports
the motion, and is remedy is not to repeal the poor-law,
but rather to give it greater laxity—to give a more
liberal system of relief—in fine, to extend the poor-law
further than it now goes. lam afraid, then, that we
shall hardly arrive at any direct conclusion by going
into Committee. Then with regard to protection,
the lion. Member for the city of Dublin is entirely
opposed to the views of the Hon. Member for
Waterford ; and that, of course, is a question
which, if gone into at all, must not be with
respect to Ireland only, but the whole kingdom. The
Honourable Gentleman who has just sat down proposed
a further subject of inquiry—namely, the state of the
relations between landlord and tenant in Ireland—a
most important subject of inquiry, certainly, and one
upon which it might be most desirable that we should
legislate. But lamat a loss to conceive how we should
come to any satisfactory conclusion upon that subject in
a Committee of the whole House. I am afraid that if
we went into Committee on the motion of the Honour-
able Gentleman we should only
ose find that his
hepresent
supporters would immediately opp anything
have to propose, and the Committee of the whole House
would find itself unable to adopt any remedy what-
ever. Now with regard to the statement made by my
Right Honourable Friend the Secretary for Ireland
I must observe that he did not represent, as
the Honourable Member for the city of Dublin
would seem to imagine, that the present state of Ire-
land was a state of prosperity. But starting from
the point of 1845, from which my Right Honourable
Friend started, it certainly appears that at that time
Ireland, although she did not suffer the same calamities
she has since had to endure, was placed in this unhappy
position. She contained n population far greater than
that for which she could find ernp!oyment; the wages
throughout the country were wretchedly low; the abodes
of the peasantry were teiserable beyond those of any
other people in Europe; and their food was not pro-
cured by wages, but they were compelled to subsist al-
most exclusively on the potatoes which they raised from
the soil. When there came upon a country so situated
the dreadful calamity of a famine, and of a famine not
of ono year but of a succession of years, it was inevit-
able that those painful scenes we have beheld should
have occurred, that we should have beheld many per-
sons driven from their homes unable to pay the rent they
had previously paid during the flourishing state of the
potato crop; others emigrating to distant shores in the
hope of procuring there a subsistence they could not
procure at home; while the property of the country was
compelled to a certain extent to support its poverty, and