The Sun.
London, England, 1802-06-26 00:00:00

FINANCE.

Mr. TIER-VEY moved the Order of the Day
for resuming the adjourned debate on the Resolu-
tions of Finance. He thought it unnecessary to
trouble the House upon the subjea ; the Right
Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR of the Ev-
CHEQUER) would either negative his (Mr. TIER-
NEY'S) ReAAntions, or move the previous question,
as he thought fit : he (Mr. TIERNEY) was only
anxious that his Resolutions should go down to
posterity.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, he should submit but a very few observations,
to the House upon . this subject, as there was no
material difference between his Resolutions and
'those of the Hon. Gentleman. He thought the
Hon. Gentleman had understated the amount of
the Debt charged upon Great Britain. in conse-
qu,'nce of subtracting the sum on account of Ireland,
which ought not to have been &eluded. With
resped to the mode in which the Hon. Gentleman
had estimated the value of. the Long and Short
Annuities, his objeaion was, that the value of
those Annuities ought not to be calculated with a
view of increasing the mass of the Public Debt,
but that the annual amount of those Annuities
ought only to he considered as a charge on t:ie
Al to the amount of the Sinking Fund, as
so: ted'in the Hon. Gentleman's Resolutions, he was
c-;F opinion that the Hon. Gentleman should have
added io that amount the accruing dividends on the
Stock purchased by the Commissioners for the re
duCtion of the National Debt within the year, which
woold.make it 5, Soo,oool. With resped to the Inter-
est and Charges of Management on the Public Debt,
he thought that the Hon. Gentleman should have
added the sum of 48,0001. being the Interest on the
Deferred Stock, instead of exclui;...; it. To the
produce. of the Permanent Taxes Ale Hon. Gentle-
man would no doubt think it perfedly fair to add
the amount of the Corn Bounties, which had been
paid out of the produce of the Customs. It was
impossible for the House not to view, with the
utmost satisfadion, the produce of the Perm.
neat Taxes during the present year, which was
equal to the produce of that favourite year 1799.
There were 1-. few other points in which his Reso-
lutions differed irom those of the Hon. Gentleman,
but upon the whole the difference was very incon-
Slderable. He did not think he could consistently
negative the Hon. Gentleman's Resolutions ; he
should therefore content himself with moving on
each the previon: question.
Mr.TIERNEY shortly explained; he contended
that the Annuities ought to be valued, in stating
the amount of the debt.

Mr. N. V AA'SrrIART made some observations
in support of what had been advanced by the CHAN-.
cELLoa of the EXCHEQUER, and contended, that
in stating the amount of the Public Debt, the Long
and Short Annuities ought not to be valued with a
view of increasing that amount.
Mr. I tERNEY again explained.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, the difference in statement was so minute,
that he did not think it worth while to trouble the
House with any further observations upon the sub-
jea. The great difference, however, was, that
the I-lon. Gentleman's Resolutions were framed for
the purpose of giving a view of our situation, which
that situation by no means warranted, His (the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCFIEQUER's) objetft was,
to give an exact and accurate statement of our
a&ual situation, If he complained of any thing
in the Hon. Gentleman's Resolutions, it was rather
of what the Hon.. Gentleman had omitted, than of
what he had inserted. He had endeavoured to
supply the deficiencies in the Hon. Gentleman's Re,
solutions, and to exhibit a fairer view of our situa-
tion than could be colleCted from the defeetive
statement of the Bon. Gentleman, He then went
through the Resolutions which he presented to the
House. on Tuesday last, (Vide THE Stnsr of the
143. d lust,), in the course of which he observed, that no
quarter had been So produrtive as the quarter from
the s,'.l ufj4y.i4ry to the sth of April I So; from
which lie tlati a ri4hi to loolc forwar4 to the saute

produce in. future. Having gone through the Reso-
lutions, he would ask, he said, whether it was
possible to entertain any apprehensOen as to our
resources, and the means which the Country pos-
sessed, to enable it to bear its burdens and to sup-
port its dignity and its consequence ? He looked
with confidence and satisfadion at the means which
the Country possessed of providing amply for
public credit and public safety.—He could state
this with confidence to the House and to the
Country ; and if there should arise a necessity of
recurring to new burdens, the Country was not so
exhausted but that it was able to provide without
difficulty for those burdens. He looked forward,
however, without anticipating any such additional
burdens, but if they did arise, a large surplus of
revenue was to be expeded„ and the Hon. Gentle-
man must allow that the actual produce of the Re-
venue had rather accorded with his (the CHAN-
CELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER'S) explanation, than
that of the Hon. Gentleman. Perhaps himself and
the Hon. Gentleman each looked forward with
confidence, but with different degrees of it. When
he considered, however, the great resources of the
Country, that great progress had been made in the
eeduetion of the Public Debt, and that the means of
discharging that Debt, which vas in 1786 as z to
z3B, were now as r to 84., it wasimpossible for
him not to contemplate the 'situation of the Coun.
try with the utmost satisfadion. Upon these
grounds he proposed his Resolutions.
Mr. TIERNEY said, the difference between him
and the Right Hon. Gentleman, on many points,
was none at all ; and on other points extremely lit-
tle; and, indeed, there could not be any material
difference, since they both went upon the same fads.
The only thing which constituted the difference
was, that he proceeded on matter of fad only, with-
out pressing any thing that appeared like argument ;
whereas, some of the Resolutions of the Right Hon.
Gentleman took in a speculation of what was to be
expelled hereafter, and it was upon that expeetation
that the: difference arose between him and the Right
Hon. Gentleman. That the. Revenue of this
Country was flourishing, was beyond dispute,
but the Right lion. Gentleman went back to the
years 1783 and 1781., to take a view of the then
Peace Establishment ; this appeared to him to be
an unsatisfadory manner of eomptiting it, inasmuch
as then, we had been at peAce for a considerable
time, and the calculation was brought forward to
the year 1787, which .was a period further ad-
vanced in peace titan we were at present. The
chief difference between him and the Right Hon.
Gentleman was upon what was to be the Peace
Establishment, and he could not assent to the ex-'
petitions exF.ressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman
upon that subjed. After expatiating upon this
and other topics for some time, he observed that
his objed in bringing forward this Discussion was
not to create any despondency in the Public mind
—he felt none himself—but he thought it very
interesting to the-Public, that the subje& should he
fully discussed, he had therefore made his statement
with that view ; he left his Resolutions on the
Table that they may be judged of and compared
with those brought forward by the Right Hon.
Gentleman.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he was perfeflly satisfied it was not from any in-
tention to create despondency in the Public Mind
the Hon. Gentleman had brought forward his Re-
solutions; lie gave him full credit for the purity of
his motives :—the great subject of difference be-
t Ween him and the Hon. Gentleman was not from
any material inaccuracy in the statement of the
Hon. Gentleman, but that his resolutions did not
contain all that was material, and such as they
should contain, to give the Public such a view
of the Financial State of this 'Country as the
subjea required before a correct opinion could be
formed upon it. Many of the points on which there
was a difference, he should pass over, because they
were really so trifling as to be unworthy of notice.
The item which he frequently repeated, of 700,0301.
as referable to the Peace Establishment, the House
would be aware, that on this he must speak a good
deal upon conjecture. With reference to the cony
parison he had made of nine years of Peace, and nine
years of War, and the application he made of it to
the probable amount of our Revenue, he could only
repeat, that, on this subjed, he had formed a very
sanguine expedation, in which he had now great
confidence.; and he adverted to the Provisions which
had hecn made for meeting our increased expences.
—He alluded also to certain topics which had
been passed over by the Honourable Gentleman, such
for instance, as the discharge of the claims on the
Emperor of Germany, a subject which was by no.
means to be abandoned or given up. He alluded
to the probable increase of our territorial revenue
in India, likewise to the large saving which might
soon be made to the Public in the per Cents.
topics on which he had formerly dwelt, and which
he now only touched upon ; from all which, he said
it appeared to him, this Country might look flr-
ward with just hopes of augmenting considerably
its revenue, even upon principles which had been
maintained by the Hon. Gentleman himself. He
took notice also of our probable Naval Establish,
tent, the number of which he had stated formerly
at 30,000 men—.He did not say that such a number
would be necessary, but his object was in this, and
every other view he took of this subject, not to
under-rate our probable expenditure. From all these
topics, taken collectively, he was sanguine enough
to hope that our Revenue would be greatly aug-
mented, even beyond any statement he had made,
and that our Expenditure would be less. It would
not, however, be matter of reproach to him if, in
the event, some points might appear different from
the view be had of them. He then took a view of
the. general observations which had been frequently
made, that as much of our prosperity was owing
to the war, we might expect it to be diminish-
ed when peace arrived ; that was not the view which
he. entertained of that subject. It was true that
during the war, our means of prosperity had been
increased, but it did not thence follow that in time
of peace we should lose ;he use of these means. He
was of opinion most decidedly, that our trade and
commerce would not diminish, but on the contrary,
would- increase from the Peace. He then took notice
of the calculations he had made with reference to the
year 1787, and observed they were taken frQiu that

period, rather than forther periods, because greater
care had been taken in arranging these subjefts then,
a!ll a few years previously, than had formerly
I,een taken of the Financial Arrangements of this
Country.; and indeed greater and more effeaual
provisions were made for all the ex pences of this
Country, with a view of War and Peace by his
Right Flon. Predecessor, than had distinguished
the affairs of this Country on any former occasion.
Mr. 'FIERNEY said a few words in explanation.

Mr. V ANS ITT ART took up that part of the
subjett which related to the probable progress of
our revenue and the increase of our trade. It had
been said, that the operation of the War had been
to exclude rival Nations, by our having the com-
mand of the Sea, from meeting us upon an equal
footing : that this gave us great advantages, and
that Peace would deprive us of these advantages.
These were two points which he denied. He denied
that we had greater trade by the War, except in
one view, that of our conquests in the West indies ;
that in other respects •we had lost much valuable
trade by the War, and which trade we should now
regain. Now it might be said that our manufaCtures
flourished and our trade increased during the War,
which was true ; but they did not so increase and
flourish in conseqUence of the War, or by the War,
but they did so notwithstanding, and in opposition
to the War. The War, as far as it operated on
these points, instead of increasing our trade and
commerce in itself, and independent of our cod-.
quests i 7 the West Indies, had an opposite ten-
dency, and indeed must have it, by diverting a.
multiplicity of hands from productive labour ; this
must necessarily diminish, and that more than could
direCtly be calculated, the real resources of a coun-
try ; and Peace had an opposite tendency, by
.in-
creasing the productive powers of a country, and
bringing with it advantages on the other hand which
could not at once be calculated, and that more
especially in such a Commercial Country as this.
This consideration led him to consider, that with
the general prosperity of the Country which Peace
would bring about, the revenue must necessarily
flourish. For the revenue must flourish if the ar-
ticles of consumption which bore a high duty were
disposed of at home and abroad in larger quantities
than formerly. This would be the case in most of
the leading articles of taxation, a few of which
he would enumerate, for instance, wine, tea, and
sugar. The consumption of all these articles had
greatly increased already since the Peace. Here
he entered upon an accurate statement of the. con-
sumption of these articles, comparing the late with
former periods, and both with the present, by.which
his proposition was abundantly supported. He then
proceeded to expatiate most ably on another int,
portant branch of this question, namely, the opc_
ration which Peace must necessarily make on the
immense capital which would be now employ-
ed more advantageously, and indeed more of it
than could be employed in time of War. In the first
place, upwards of zo millions annually would be
employed now in trade, which during War was ne-
cessarily employed in Loans. The advantages of
which alone to trade would be prodigious, when it
came to be all active- in its operations on the pro_
duai ve powers of the Country. This Ngan to be al-
ready felt even in the public proceedings of that
House, in the vast enlargement which had. already
taken place in every branch of business, as Mr.
SPEAKEE could pretty well testify from the labo-
rious attention it exacted from him. To illustrate
this proposition Mr. VANSITTART entered into a
comparative enumeration of the number of Road,
Canal, Inclosure, and other Bills, beginning in the
year r 78z, and taking stated intervals down to
the present period ; upon which it again appeared
that our trade and all species of resources were very
rapidly increasing. He then proceeded to give
some account of all the vessels that passed the
Sound in the course of the War, to shew also how
much tonnage of British Shipping and how much
Foreign had been employed in our Trade, Sec.
from which he again deduced that our Trade did not
:ncrease by the war, but that, on .a comparative
Estimate with that of the increase of the Trade of
America, and the Northern Powers of Europe,
which-had not been engaged in the war, comparing
what they were at the begining of the war, what
they are now, and what we were then, and what
we were at the end of the war ; and then he said
that the war did not appear to have been the cause
of our increase of Trade in the tonnage of Shipping
—But that since the peace our Shipping had already
greatly increased.—From all these statements he
concluded that our increase of Trade during-the war,
was not created by the war, but in despite of the
war.—That since the peace, all the points on which
the prosperity of a Nation depended, had already.
increased, and were now increasing ; that therefore
the conclusion was fallacious, by which is was said,
peace would contract our Commerce.
Sir F. BARING adverted to the present state of
the Commerce of this Country, and observed, it was
very great at present, but expressed a conviction,
that it could not continue. He looked to a consi.
derable change in this respeCt, in the state of this
Country ; it was not, indeed, a change from which
he had any alarming apprehensions as to the general
welfare of this Country, but it was fit for the Pub„
lie to be prepared to receive it. There were Mil-
lions to be struck out of the calculations, which
some Gentlemen had stated—There were some
Ar-
ticles charged with a Duty in time of War, which in
time of Peace they would not bear ; and all the di-
minution thus created, must be considered as a de-
falcation in the Revenue. There were many regula-
tions wanting upon various heads of Trade, and great
encouragement should be given to trade by various
regulations, otherwise we could not expect that
any of it would continue with us. He took the
article of tea by way of illustration, upon which
he expatiated at some lenysth, to shew what atten.
tion was due to the subjed, and also to support
the proposition with which he commenced 'his
speech, namely, that the trade of this Country
cannot continue what it is at present.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
after an apology for speaking so often as he had oc-
casion to do this evening, expressed his disappoint-
ment at the opinion he had heard from the
Honourable Baronet and notwithstanding his au-
tholity, which was confessedly and deservedly

very high, he must be.pardoned from assenting to
it. 1--k had said that a part of our Trade must ne-
cessarily decline in time of Peace : he knew of no
part of the Trade and Commerce of this. Country
that must do so, except those parts of the West
Indies which we had gained by conquest during the
War, and which we had restored by the Treaty of
Peace. He doubted whether the sagacity of the
Honourable Member himself could discover any
other part' of our
.Trade that Was likely to
diminish. That was a part which was certainly
material to the Revenue of this Country, but he ap-
prehended that this would be greatly overbalanced
by the advantages alluded to by his Hon. Friend
(Mr. VANSITTART) of the productive powers of
the Country being so much increased as they must
by Peace, and by which he apprehended that our
Commerce would be spread still wider over, the
World. than it ever had yet been. With regard to the
particular branch of Trade to which the Hon. Ba-
ronet had alluded, he could not help recolleEting the
provisions which were made in the year 1784, and
any intentions to turn any part of our Trade to our
disadvantage by illicit traffic, or the like, might be.
counteraded in ten days perhaps, by a Legislative
provision.
Sir F. BARING said a few words in explanation.
He said, he did not look so much.to the defalcation
of the Revenue from the diminution of trade, as the
Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to imagine. A great
part of the. trade to which he alluded as likely to be
greatly diminished, was one which until lately did
not prOduce any thing to the Revenue at all ; be
meant the Transit Trade. There were some millions
in value now in this trade, which we could not
maintain in the year 1803. We would not be able
to keep it up. Foreign Countries would not be
able to keep it up with us as they did during the
War—they could not afford it. Our Ships were not,
now worth halfthe money they Were r 2 MOnths-ago.
The different Powers" of Europe were too much ex-
hausted by the exertions they were obliged to .make
in the War, to be. able to trade with us, as they had
formerly done. He did not mention this as an in.- •
stance of adversity to this Country at large, but
merely as to the probable future quantum Of Trade.

The first Otiestion was then read, on the Resolu-
tion of Mr. TIERNEY, and the previous Question
put upon it and carried. All the rest of Mr. TIER-
NEY'S Resolutions were then disposed of by the pre-
vious question—and then each of the Resolutions of
the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER were put and
carried.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER diet"
moved several Addresses to His MAJESTY, which
were agreed to, and of which the following is the
substance :

Praying, That His Majesty will be graciously
pleased to confer some dignity in the Church, on
the Rev. John Barton, Chaplain of the House.
That His Majesty will be pleased to order that
12001. be advanced to Henry Alexdnder, Esq. for
his services in the present Session as Chairman of
the Committees of the House.

That His Majesty may be pleased to order that
there be advanced to Jeremiah Dyson, Esq. for his
services in the present Session, as one of the Clerks
Assistant in the House, such a sum as together with
the Fees and Emoluments of his Office, s►;all amount
to 15001.
That His Majesty will be graciousl' pleased to
order such a sum of money as His Majesty sha.ll
think proper, to be advanced to John Ley, Esti'
Second Clerk Assistant. of the House, for his ser-
vices in the present Session.
That His Majesty will he graciously pleased to
direa, that such a sum of money he advanced to
John Clementson, Esq. Deputy Serjeant at Arms,
attending the House, as shall, with the Emoluments
of his Office, amount to gool. for his services in the
present Session, and to assure His Majesty the House
will make good the above votes, &c.
The usual votes then passed for printing the
Journals, Votes, &C.
3001. were also voted to Mr. DUNN, for making
an Index to the Journals, &c.
3201. to another Gentleman for business of the
same description with.regard to the Votes.
Another Address, that His Majesty will be
pleased to order such a sum as he shall think proper
for the. Clerk of the Public Committees of the
House.

.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, after all
elegant compliment to the illustrious. Personage
who had caused the valuable remains of ancient
Records of Herculaneum and Pompeia to he saved.
from. destrution, and expatiating on their utility
to us in particular and to the world at large, moved
an Address to His IVIAt EsTY, praying that he mai
be graciously pleased to order that 17001. be ad-
vanced tOWILLIAM DRUMMOND, Minister at the
Court of His Scica,tAN MAJESTY, for defraying
the expence of copying ancient Manuscripts, dis-
covered at Herculaneum and Pompeia.—Which was
agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, he was extremely concerned in not having
had it in his power so' on to call the attention et.
the Houk to a subjeft which he was about to men-
tion, and which was of great importance. The
House would recollect, that when the question had
been discussed this Session on the subject of the
Civil List, he expressed an intention of submitting,
to the House a measure to prevent the recurrence et
another such application to Parliament. He con-,
ceived that he was pledged, and the House would
pardon him, if he said the House was also in some
degree pledged to the adoption of a measure upeti
this subject. He was extremely concerned that
such a multitude of business which, the Meuse
would be aware, he had been engaged in, had ten-
dered it impossible for him to bring this subject tor-
ward this Session. He wished a minute examina-
tion to take place in the accounts, and then some
arrangements to be made upon the matter. But this
called for a degree of attention which his other
and numerous avocations would not permit him.te.
.
bestow upon it. He wished now to have it under-
stood, that the intention he had stated some time
ago upon this subjed was not abandoned, and that
he should lay before the House early in the next
Session.of Parliament, a proposition upon it, or that
if it was not brought forward by him, it would b°
brought by some other person in His Majesty
Goyernment,

Ht also gave notice that some measures were in
contemplation before a Committee appointed for
such purpose; for enabling a number of Surgeons
who had been in the service, to enter into employ-
ment to superintend the health of the Crew of va-
rious Ships in distant parts of the world—a system
which, he trusted, would be attended with particular
advantages to the Naval Service of this Country in
particular, as well as serviceable to the general
cause of Humanity. This, he observed, was a
system the want of which had been much lamented
by some of the most intelligent' men in Europe.—
He begged parddn for not stating these things earlier,
but indeed such pressure of business as the House
had felt would account_for' this, and other measures
not .being in a state of readiness at present. He
therefore desired this to be considered as a measure
intended to be brought forward in the next ,Session
of Parliament.
Mr. IRWIN brought up certain Kceounts of Im-
ports and Expotts up to the .sth of Janeary i 802,
which were laid on the Table, and ordered to be
printed.
At a quarter before eight o'clock the House ad-
journed.