The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-08 00:00:00

GENERAL REGISTRY.

After a short conversation, it was agreed that the Ge
neral Registry Bill should take precedence of the other
orders of the day, and
Mr. WM. BROUGHAM, in rising to move the second
reading of the bill, said, that notwithstanding the vast
number of petitions that were presented against this bill,
yet he did not feel altogether so disheartened as to despair
that this measure would be destroyed, or that it would not
be in his power successfully to propose it to the house.
Although he did not agree with those who
considered the petitions of the people as little better
than waste paper, yet upon a subject like this, where so
many interests were excited, opposition might be raised
against a measure which was good in itself, because
its details were not sufficiently understood. That
was the case with the present bill. It was impos-
sible for any one interested in any way in land
to doubt that the principle of registration was good.
Honk members might differ as to the mode in which the
principle ought to be carried into effect. Some might
certainly be of opinion, that they still ought to be
brought into London, others that they ought to
remain in the various counties, and others again that every
man ought to be his own registrar, and that the registra-
tion ofdeeds ought to be carriedon on that domestic footing
that every man shouldputupon the back ofhis own parchments
every incumbrance from this to the end of the world.
He would not enter into the merits of the plan, but
would reserve his observations upon that until a later
period of the debate, or another stage of the pro-
ceeding. With regard to the principle of registra-
tion, he could hardly suppose that any man who dispas-
sionately considered the subject couht, hesitate to say
that it would be a security and safeguard to property, and
tend much to its better transmission. In bringing forward
this measure for the third time, he hoped that it
would not be considered he had any personal motive. He
had persevered in it, and would continue to be its advo-
cate, because from the best attention he had been
able to pay to the subject, he regarded it to be as im-
portant a measure as could be introduced.. He would not
say that those who opposed it werelabourmg under igno
ranee, but certainly their eyes had not been sufficiently open
intention
at the evils as they at present existed. He had no
at present of going into the merits or details, because he
conceived that all the petitions which had been presented
from Yorkshire, and all the meetings that had taken place
in that large county against it, had not been applied against
the principle of registration, but against metropolitan re-
gistration. ( Cheers.) He believed, therefore, that Yorkshire
and other places, from which the petitions against it had
come to that house, only desired that it should be conti-
nued
in the counties, and that in all probability those coun-
ties that had it not ought to have it. He begged those gen-
tlemen who were prejudiced against the measure to look
to the situation of trustees. One instance was better than
an hour's argument, and he would relate a case that
had lately occurred within his own knowledge. Upon the
marriage of a gentleman and a lady, a settlement was
executed declaring any property the lady might afterwards
be entitled to should be conveyed by the trustees of the
marriage settlement upon certain trusts. The father of
the lady shortly afterwards died, and left her
nearly half a million of money, directing her trustees to
convey the property to her for her life. (Hear, hear. )
She and her husband fell into embarrassed circumstances.
It was necessary, after they had exhausted all the funds,
that further assistance should be obtained by apply-
ing to the wife's trustees. Accordingly she levied
a fine, and then, under the provisions of the will,
by which the trustees had conveyed that large sum of
money to her use, a large sum was received for the benefit
of the landlord's creditors. All this took place while the
marriage settlement was slumbering in a solicitor's box.
A short time since a bill was filed against the trustees, for
not having conveyed the land according to the terms of
the settlement. They could not have done so—
they were not solicitors—they were private gentle-
men, and knew nothing of the settlement, and it was
not improbable they might be called upon to refund the
whole amount that had been thus raised and squandered
away—almost a frightful amount—and the whole had arisen
from the impossibility of their having known of the settle-
ment. Had the settlement been registered, that money never
could have been raised. (Hear.) ,He (Mr. Brougham)
was anxious to call the attention of the house to the
principles of the bill he was introducing to their con-
sideration. First, the registry offices were appointed

plani
no
ff
eantnhtt
iweeo
by the Crown, and their salaries were alway;
paid from the consolidated fund. Next, the multiplicity
of deeds to be registered was so very great, there was much ,
danger of some being overlooked, and of course the mode
.).
for regulating the registry should be rendered as simple r
as possible regulating
hear), or any arrangement would T ./
be a greater curse than it could be any thing else. ' q
The mode he had to propose- underwent the test of inquiry '
from several learned persons, most competent to judge on
the matter ; among the rest, a gentleman of great celebrity,
Mr. Bell, who first objected to it, through fear
, of its impracticability ; and likewise it had been submitted
1 to the opinion of the commissioners appointed by parlia-
ment to examine into all the modes which might be de-
tised . ttt . facilitate the object of accurate registry,
T,he
plan in Yorkshire was to i'egig"te:r. the names or the
deeds annually registered, must necessarily contents of each deed ; this plan, hi tile mUltitude o
Inducg
great confusion, and render it difficult to refer to e,147
deed with exactness. The proposition of the hen;
eonta,
tlthdlaeenb, dwea,oonrfdtdot la
,iss
symbol,
symbol.ppbalori
simplify
lwtsh,heiHwe
index
which
,ualpnde
hr;hhoaa rtnpci.dsjyani,
isevhbrneoebtuhaeknlr 1
h.ivr.;:ooo;
member for indicing the names or 'the granters 0°
proveinent on the 16.4 gYiibtii. flit (Mt: tfrongharn's;
declared to be " a word of fear"—a most suspicioniest
and masonic expression. (Laughter.) He ;w,,,,eu'it
in operation differ much from a symbol. The
make use, then, of some other word less alarinD Id
appearance, though he did not promise that it wou
..
c
objection to his hon. friend's plan was the exPen!
which would attend the having a Registry-office in
each county. In the first place, they would have „I)
build a ftee office ; but this would be 4 trifling ,expe,n-
compared with the expense of carrrying bri. the poi
In Yorkshire, the average cost of registering d ti f 5
was 5/. ( Hear, hear.) The solicitor's fee, eve; ,h
carrying the deed only next door, was 'S., an' the
greaterw the distance, of course the greater the expeu
hereas, the cost of registering, a deed in Lond°°'
under his ion
proposed plan, including its transmissi
from any part of the country, would be but ss. (ge„arii
hear.) Thus the expense, instead of being 51, vie"to-
be only ss. There would, • ess --
be quite as ready ace
the deeds, and a vastly increased facility of referee
n"1
He thought the house would admit these to be stroDi
recommendations. With reference to the readiness et
access to the office in London, by means of the Pen
even from the most distant parts of the country, be
would mention the fact that a letter could be tralle,
mitted from Appleby to London, and its ansvcer,F,h
turned, by post, in the same space of time w'''`,.
would be occupied in the transmission by post of lentral
Thep
and answer,by the cross roads, from Appleby to Ke
vas,
and back. (Hear, hear.) Another great object m.)
that all deeds should be registered. (Hear, be- e
He wholly objected to having only the memorial,: it
gistereu ; if the deed itself were not registereowbe
would ba better to have no registration at all. -':,..t„
mere information given by the memorial of the e!‘''
ence of a deed, without giving the contents of ?oat,
deed, was far worse than no information at all. (II 0.
hear.) The little difference in the expense ta:Xtle
thing, compared to the importance of havinf i. sup,
perfect. To illustrate one benefit of his Pian7Chini f
doubts his title, he has to go to great expense,
pose a man now wants to have money ad%ance" latter
by a banker ; he puts the question ; but if the
ble,
and delay before he can bring his title-deeds for
plan,
inspection of the banker ; but under the proposed letter,Pa
all the borrower had to do was to put down the r,
a " symbol" of his registered deeds, on a bit of Paiii3ae,,e
and say to the lender, " If you doubt me, all you
the
to do is to go to the office and put the inquiryedtli)etter
proper person as to whether any title, register
too/
A, No. 100, be as I tell you it is." This plan,
the
would facilitate equitable mortgages, and seTire,
which
lender from advancing his money on title deedsi nwn
rs.
have before been relied on by two other e de
~
There would be this advantage in having only one 0.1
fice, that it would be managed in a more businesrsi-fleile.
manner—the persons employed would be better d
doing`ln
be no hesitation in
He thought there would • as,
away with country registration; the only question
0,..
whether there should be only one central register. i_
divided
fice, or whether the country should be ,ce•
districts, in each of which there should be an n`
°-
tra-
If the house came to a determination that no regis
to
tion was the best thing, he should call upon there
la
say that there should be no such thing ( A laugh), err
he and his hon. friends would be relieved from to, 4
onerous duty ; but if the house were of opinion. tnnl'a
the principle of registration was good, then heasnh, told
suggest that both the bill of his hon. friend (Lilt
trou
~e
own bill should be referred to a committee, who no
take into consideration which was the best plan'
moved that the bill be read a second time.
On the question being put,
Mr. HE ATHCOTE said he thought the reined!,
worse than the disease. The measure of the hon. o',
learned gentleman might be applicable to a proving'
like Yorkshire—or it might facilitate transactioes
when a great property had to change hands . but tbej
comparatively few would be benefitted, and he aid
comparatively
hope, therefore, that the house would not consent, °.
any such object, to injure all the smaller freeholderst.lue
the country. It was said that the opposition to :ci
bill was got up by the country attorneys ; but he other
ask were there no London attorneys on the !nu,
side ? (Hear.) He, however, would et go. into
the question as to men's motives i he thought itbbnetllb,
to conclude that the motives of all were good ;
the ebnucsiness which
to be, to remove a great deal of
better done in the
was more conveniently and much
done in London.
country than it could possibly be.
his duty to move,
Under these circumstances he felt it
read a second time
would say that he considered the tend .of the bill
as an amendment, that the bill be
that day six months. (Hear.) amendment
Mr. C A YLE Y must support the
c or two
jection to the bill if it had comprehended on . g. c,
to brin Do ,
provinces. The measure which he had _col
genet
the house would partake something of thed gel'
character of the bill of the hon. and lean?' l'he 01'
that had been moved. He should have had less 01)-
man, avoiding its objections, and combinnligie of big
vantages of the existing system. The believed, OlO
bill was district registration, which, he
be found less expensive in its adoption
uced into t
venient in its operation. He had introd t
~, s pa
measure a clause relative to equitable morogcai!;nesider-
, being now convinced that this might lead t He
to
I able inconvenience, he had abandoned it.
brf-714 a mat;
apologise that he, a civilian, ventured
had indneeu° 0
ter of law before that house; but he ha' se eyed with
to do so because he believed that the house when intro,
suspicion propositions relating to the i"`
he considereu, i
duced by lawyers. Ho must ,ay that
_euaiuteo 1
the country attorneys, who genera were a 'le better
with three or four lines of their business, ration tha"
qualified to undertake the business of regis,__A thee:
were the London attorneys, who usually conti'ild tho
selves to one branch of their rofession, `i doe
greater number of whom were quite incapable °atoll rc.: ,
mg conveyances. If they were to have a eek" have
''
gistration he did not see why they should an; , ite.
4
at Lincoln, which was more central than Loou°,abjeeb
hon. and learned gentleman, in bringing this:- year'
under the consideration of the house lasra hi's
said that the advantages to be derived less
en
and mo.retocebni; 4
plan 'were three-fold. First, it -would be
..doe ,
pensive ; secondly, the registration was to be eerter facia:
by abler men ; and thirdly, it would afford a gtr 3/eared
lity of search. As regarded the expense, 'the ostu..
from the evidence that had been taken, that of yor (
Suppose he took the medium to be
the Registry building in the North Ridi:g"cas 3,o°°:,
shire was 8001. that in the East Rid„i°o7 and th„e(ii,
were only twenty districts. the cost l'i° for the Meter, )
Did any one imagine that the building that ?(I-le tea
politan registration would cost less than i. comp la's
,ea. 1 0
The hon. member for Yorkshire last .i enose" r, r,
the expense of carrying into effect th admit, howeee„,
''°,"ii(Cbe 4°'°' o-
at 500,000/. He ( Mr. Cayley) must e the fa,
that the expense of building might astion thc
parties in the time to come ?
pense of the day only, and that the ctii c to the
her was, what would be the eapevesd that an
He belie
eh less eccl
that of metropolitan registration. His
cost of district registration would be 111_° and leaf ent
4°Tl.--lv il'adethas
friend (Mr. Brougham), who had certali`ci ltheln five
his case with considerable ingenuity, to,
cow be_
c,,,
the cost of the transmission of deed ',' . The,
shillings ; this was surely a low estirr...te. .7d. be
I•i tbattio
pense of local registration would be
hon. and learned gentleman last Year statedregistra in
i d advant9l' ti°
would be Ii ss. There was a dee de cording t° oie-
`,Amur of local registration. nut ae oft he
.5.,
erise4 3 .
opinion of competent persons, this ex
~.
1 than " ,t''
he wss ,e e- f
believed the expense of the metropolitan re
tropolitan registration would Tiet - 1 to .• v o
to his P °_n' fitcbtl,,,t
which would give an advantage ded the ad -,
mated at .1/. ss. Next, as regar- 1 man ha tiiu
search. The hon. and learned' gentne,,Oar of 01
year quoted a high legal authority i
sraboliciij
symbolical index. By the way, If thers, hewly
index were applicable to they, metropebi'e t
wo,
not see why it was not equally aPPlica,he feet beg
shire, or to the country at large. Hut Lo. me and
this index was generally disliked. The hop.
the
for Somerset was against registration alte, ii,
might be called the Coryphmus of that pa il
I
i
-1

)I
a

house ; but its Coryphwus out of doors was Mr. Hall,
a London barrister, whose arguments were decisive
against metropolitan registration. Amongst the ob-
jections he stated were the possible loss of the deeds
in the course of their conveyance to London, and the
t inconvenience that would be occasioned to persons
who wanted to borrow. Another objection was, that it
would be a great grievance to all but the very wealthy
removed from the metropolis to have the registries as
reference's placed at such a distance from them.
There was likewise the difficulty of proving rights de-
Pendent on the production of the deed. There was
the additional objection of forcing into the metropolis
tithe law business of the emintry, and bringing from
ib;„Protinpes sill the practitioners of eminence and
1,1;19% There were likewise to be taken into account
titlenst the list of objections, the risk and hazard to
property, which might arise from fire, riot or
rebellion in the provinces. These were the objections
of Mr. Hall, and hon. members must admit that they
senled much weight with tlitin. ( Hear, hear.) The
Tuttent§ in favour of local registration were simple
"nd obvious—to wit, the facility of access, and the di-
Eished expense. The testimony of the member for
eX also made in favour of local registration on the
"end of the great delay consequent on being c?m-
-• pilled to employ a town agent in the metropolitan
ran, and the greater encouragement to register in the
:lea' one. He, too, urged the diminished expense and
.r0„1,,e
"'" , as well as the greater facility of registry and
reference in the latter. (Hear, hear.) A respectable
gentleman
in Sheffield instanced an occasion where
-4 instant execution was threatened if the deeds
eewe'e not deposited do the very day of the panic ; a
filiti6ll, surely, which could not be complied with
,teey had to be brought from the metropolis • and ,
he would contend, was a solid and unswerable argu-
te-"ent against the metropolitan bill. The hon. gentle-
onean proceeded to show, that the local system was the
which prevailed in most countries where the re-
fester had been established—as in Prussia, in Bavaria,
ion Austria. It also prevailed in Norway and Den-
tottrlk, 'where registration had been established for cen-
hales It was likewise the practice of Sweden and
s, ; and both in New York province and city the
ge's,;ein of local registration was adopted. In Nova
tia, too, the same system was adopted since its set-
keentent• In his (Mr. Ciyley's) opinion, the argu-
,‘ nts in favour of local courts made for, and strength-
ened those in favour of local registration, and militated
against the metropolitan plan. His hon. and learned
friend, the member for Southwark, who introduced
the bill, being an advocate for local courts, should also
advocate the principles of local registration. The hon.
gentleman then proceeded to show, from the reports
°f both the commissioners and the committee of the
house, that the majority of opinions were in favour of
the local system. Some were for no registry, and
one.octed a metropolitan in conjunction with a
locaA point had been on by the hon.
tnember for Southwark, with regard to registration by
Memorial, and an objection had been raised on the pre-
: itidice arising from this cause against the system of
registration pursued in Yorkshire, but it was an ob-
i_eetion easily obviated, by making it optional to insert
411-length copy, instead of the memorial. In his
(Lu
Cayley's) opinion (as we understood him) there
,fold be but little doubt that the registration ought to
ess7f
, ...any attempts had been made, but unsuc-
b„ 4ellY, to establish this system, and a bill brought in
r42ergeant Onslow, in 1815, was lost on the second
a
the full-length
the main objection being, that it proposed
registration instead of the memorial.
ZAs regarded this part of the question, he (Mr. Cayley)
dered the evidence of Sir E. Sugden had not been
E' Sugden
BROUGHAM was understood to say that Sir
had refused to be examined.
cow r' E Y proceeded to insist that the people
never be persuaded to adopt the system of me-
Itan registration. The local plan was more con-
tiTettnt with the general feelings of the country. For
e reasons he had adduced, he was opposed to the
Ittenire before the house, and supported the amend-
g!, which he trusted would be carried.
tie,„2r GEORGE STRICKLAND thought that, on a
titi',nen where such a variety of opinions were enter-
b.vtt by the best-informed men, the house ought to
;14tTle before it enforced any measure upon the country
8,„ „regard to registration. The hon. member for
kil'unwark said, that when it came to be thoroughly
he°Zll, it would be thoroughly liked; on the contrary,
"i'dieved that the more it was known, the more it
,„°llld be disliked and dreaded. (Hear, hear.) It
-as
the great and fearful alteration in the law ; nor had
such any experience to warrant them in the adoption of
-reePlan. The legal effect of the plan would be to
fr
the 2111 every man, by the strong arm of the law,
of pion of his own title deeds, for the purpose
LoutiZg them in one great government office in
'aid alai (Hear, hear.) He had certainly heard it
307 b this deposit of deeds was not made compul-
ao n y the bill, and that the word used was " may,"
peiso Qt " Must." Oh, no. It was by no means cora-
of rY"--option was allowed; but the only consequence
1,1 et depositing was the loss of the estate. ( Hear.)
ills was the species of non-compulsion which landed
l'reprietors had to expect. He objected to the plan as
1-el and untried. He knew it had been said that a
'Millar plan had been tried with success in Sweden
I11(1 elsewhere, and that it had answered in YOrkshire
'lad Middlesex. But here the deposit of the whole deed
Was required, whereas in those cases a memorial only was
'"Ristered. To a registration of memorials he should
not object, if that should be deemed a sufficient safe-
guard- It was calculated, if England were divided into
ilottle districts, 8,000 deeds would be registered annually
w(2)utb- It was admitted on all hands that the registry
forty ybe. no use to the country for twenty, thirty, or
titles. Th-afa This plan gave no security to existing
wanner e house, therefore, was in the most generous
tweet r going to legislate for posterity. (Hear.) In
deed!. Years, therefore, there would be about 1,500,000
deeds
fin the registry. In order to trace out any title
DIY to these roots or symbols. These roots appeared
nary ,selnething like pedigrees, and it would be neces-
thieoLehtraclle it up to the pater, o.r. head, and. thence.
unio a the divisions, sub-divisions, unions, dis-
necteVnd re-unions, all of which were to be con-
Were hp"Y, a sort of chain, if one of the links of which
topic I°Ken, the deed would be lost. ( Hear.) One
but v Considerable importance had been referred to,
canti„,r)' Slightly, viz., the difficulties which the mer-
adobt;,‘Yorld would experience if this system were
their til"1 obtaining loans on the equitable deposit of
tured to e deeds. The hon. member had, indeed, ven-
but Wes Islay, that this plan would facilitate such loans
the co e net, aware that evidence was given before
minittee
(and he might refer to names of great
'oaus ',e), that it would put a total end to equitable
witnes,„ the deposit of title deeds, and that some of the
Was L"es,‘ lyent so far as to say, that such tendency
iufer:eceuctal to the country ? ( Hear, hear.) This
pili,74'o_
1118?
,denied. He knew that, during the
for e. 2.), such was the activity in searching
title deeds in the We t Riding of Yorkshire,
'llat the registry office at Wakefield was kept open
facilities
and day, and he would safely 'acilities given at that time by assert that the
.aiegotiation of equitable loans upon Zigistration to the
i!eds saved hundreds of considerableentdepoisi
baietneotsf title
niters from utter ruin. ( Hear.) lladnirte
ti,sary to lose time by sending to the metro olnis nfeo-r
pe`: Purpose of searching such a registry as that is
the'red, they must have been ruined.. He denied that
curi" could be any efficient provision
.against merely
W58411s searchers, all the protection given by the bill
seams requisition of a declaration from the person
that i:Log that he was interested in the property, or
sorti be. was the attorney, or clerk to the attorney, of
thaPtejscon interested. What protection was there
to i ' The exposure of title deeds was calculated
la,,,lnerease -•litigation, and to expose the possessors. of
l'rc'eee(telr°,.Perty to many very vexatious. andhhavairnasgsmtgo
tops• He protested also against
"qtllQ, -s title deeds through the post-office. Not-
'eing the praise which it was fashionable to
, that department in that house, he knew many
qad instances in which it was very badly conducted. He
tittle inplained to the Postmaster-General some short
tb:gv? ?lthe want of a regular post to a large town
{laid to jac.nuty of Doncaster. No attention had been
had sine 's memorial, and the post-bag to that town
h‘,'Orivey,..se been twice lost (Hear) ; and this was the
is titi7,
,ei by Which he was to be compelled to send
deeds. It was the opinion of Mr. Preston
..`"eh knd ir
`Award Sugden that the total alteration
notice w 0 oral registration would make in the law of
H4el4,be productive of the greatest inconveni-
t,,,; wills in also protested against the registration of
hi so te- London, the present local registration
518 4144)11401 more convenient. The whole plan, in
we,CUrity shook the security of property, the real
°Leh pre Which was the possession of the deeds
Mr. Lied the title.
';sPect f C H said, that no man could have a greater
0 ksten
tohr the
opinions of Sir E. Sugden and Mr.
PPeEe thin be had. But to those opinions he would
e opinions of men who were entitled to

scarcely less weight. He could quote the opinions of
Mr. Sanders, Mr. ,Humphries, and of the late Sir
Samuel Romilly, and Mr. Butler. ( Hear.) He had
really heard no good_ reason from those who did not
object to a local registration, why they should object
to a metropolitan registry. The great bustle of all
legal transactions took place in London, and a registry
there would be far more convenient than a number of
local registries. He really saw no reason to appre-
hend a civil war in England, and thought that argu-
ment, at least, a very bad one ; for, surely, if a civil
war did spring up, tumults were as likely to arise in
provincial towns, as in the metropolis. Had they not
heard of riots at Bristol, at Nottingham, and at
Derby ? (Hear, hear.) The arguments told in favour
of a metropolitan registration. As' to all these pam-
phlets the fact was, that the country attorneys were
I afraid of losing their business ( Hear), for they appre-
hended that their business would be transferred to
London by this bill, and this was the whole gist of the
opposition of the country attorneys. ( Hear.) They
had no reason to fear it. The whole business could
be transacted in the country as now ; the deeds could
be prepared there, and, when prepared, could be sent
with the duplicate to London. He agreed in all the
statements made by the member for Yorkshire, who
had spoken first, with respect to the expediency of re-
gistration ; but he differed from him with respect to
the mode of that registration. If reliance were placed
on the memorial, it must be recollected that the vali-
dity of the transfer would depend on the correctness
of that memorial. If the memorial should be defec-
tive, the priority would be lost. There would -be
great risk in this. He objected also to the expense
which would attend the memorial. All that was re-
quired by the bill of the hon. and learned member for
Southwark was a simple duplicate of the deed ; while
the memorial must be drawn up on parchment, must
be attested by two witnesses, and must, in other re-
spects, be attended with considerable expense. Great
difficulties would be occasionally created in the proving
of titles if the memorial were to be put on the register.
What was proposed by the bill of his hon. and learned
friend the member for Southwark was the construction
of a perfect index. Mr. Bell, whose talents and
knowledge every one was acquainted with, was always
in favour of a registration. (No, no.) Mr. Bell was
in favour of registration, but was not satisfied as to
the mode of constructing the index ; but when the mode
prescribed in his hon. and learned friend's bill was
shown to him, he expressed his conviction that the
system would work well. Convinced as he was that
the adoption of the bill of his hon. and learned friend
would be highly advantageous to the public, it should
on that ground receive his support.
Lord M 0 RPE T H had no difficulty in stating that
the sense of that Riding of Yorkshire which he had
the honour to represent, and which it was hardly neces-
sary for him to say contained a number of persons of
large landed property, was almost unanimous against
the bill of his hon. and learned friend the member for
Southwark ; a feeling which he had no doubt that
Riding only shared in common with the other Ridings
of the important county of Yorkshire. Now, he
thought it could not be denied that the wishes of his
constituency ought to have great weight with every
member of that house, in reference to all matters
which lore on private concerns, and on the administra-
tion of property. Unquestionably the sense of the
people of Yorkshire was favourable to the system of
registration which they possessed, and not to the sys-
tem proposed by the bill of his hon. and learned
friend. They were very willing to amend any defects
which might appear in their present system, but the
system itself they were desirous of retaining. It was
his intention, therefore, to vote, not for the bill of
his hon. and learned friend the member for South-
wark, but for the bill of the hon. member for the
North Riding of Yorkshire.
Mr. ROMILL Y thought this bill ought to be
allowed to go into committee, in order that its provi-
sions might be fully and impartially examined. Much
misrepresentation existed with respect to many parts
of it. With respect to the disclosures which might
take place under the proposed system, he could not
see that they would be injurious except to those who
sought a fraudulent concealment. He knew many
merchants in the city of London who were of opinion
that a general disclosure of property would be in no
way injurious to commercial interests. As it was,
many persons, with a view to conceal their real condi-
tion, went on living at a greater expense than they
could afford, until they involved themselves and a
number of other persons in ruin. How many landed
proprietors were at this moment living beyond their
means ? Having a nominal income arising from a
property deeply mortgaged, they lived up to that no-
minal income, in order that the condition of their pro-
perty might not be disclosed. To such persons a sys-
tem of registration, by which the real condition of
their property would be shown, wouldbe advantageous,
as they would be prevented from obtaining that credit,
the facility in getting which now plunged them into
inextricable embarrassments. He denied that the ex-
pense of the proposed proceeding would be such as it
had been described to be. Duplicates of the deeds
would not be expensive, and the objection that it
would not be practicable to raise money on them, was
totally unfounded. Ile did not think that the bill of
the hon. member for Southwark would make such a
material alteration in the present practice, and he
should give it his most cordial support.
Mr. A. SANDFORD said, that the bill then be-
fore the house would not make the property in York-
shire one jot more secure, nor make it worth a single
year's purchase more, than the land in any other part
of England. That there were at times abuses under
the present system he did not deny ; but he was sa-
tisfied that the present measure, instead of acting as a
remedy to those abuses, would tend materially to ag-
gravate them. _ _ _

- Mr. DUNC °MBE considered if the house con-
sented to the bill, there was nothing but downright
force that could put it into operation in Yorkshire—
it would be resisted ; and perhaps this would be better
understood by the hon. and learned member (Mr.
Brougham) than by most men, as he was one of the
first to advise the people to resist the payment of cer-
tain taxes. If the measure was now rejected, as he
fully anticipated it would be, he hoped it would never
be introduced again. Why was it thus perseveringly
brought forward, after having been so signally de-
feated ? and this, too, without a single new argument
in support of it ? He did not believe that the hon.
and learned member could be anxious for notoriety—
of that he had, indeed, enough already. He did not
believe he was courting popularity, for none could be
got by such a bill ; nor did he believe that he brought
it forward for the sake of increasing the business of
the London practitioners, for as that increased there
would be a proportionate diminution in that public
confidence and respect which had hitherto been in-
variably and deservedly awarded to them. He should
vote directly against the bill, because he looked upon
it as obnoxious to the feelings of the great mass of
proprietors—as injurious to their interests and de-
structive to their rights.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it appeared
to him that the argument had been diverted from its
proper ground. There were, in fact, only two ques-
tions to be considered, the first, whether there was to

be any registry at all ; the second, how that registry
could be best effected. The proper ground to take
was this, that by making a registry they would render
titles so much the more secure, and the transfer of
land so much the more easy. Purchases would thus
be made more willingly, much more cheaply, and
much more expeditiously. At present there was no
place at which to obtain information on the subject.of
Property, its owner, or its title. Persons were wholly
dependant for it on fortuitous circumstances, and it
wasth7efore utterly impossible to proceed to a bar-
gainwith anything like security or confidence. In a
511 elt
r., majority of instances, vendors undoubtedly acted
aiiy, but there were instances, and those of not very
unfrequerit occurrence, where fair dealing did not take
place. Practically,therefore, there was a great evil
in the present system. But they were told by some
that there was really no great injury, forgetful that to
guard against this
actually necessary. injuryNiTas
oxiseantire code of laws was
wholesometransfe statement,h
he would ask, in a country where
easy, and, to be easy, must necessarily berosafet tPoos be
Pos-
session of land was no evidence of title, and the im-
mediate-
purchaser should not be icjured by frau
therefore he could not see why any objection ought to
exist on the part of the owner of an estate to a cor-
rect registration of its deeds. Fraudulent persons
might indeed be opposed to it—persons who were de-
sirous to raise money on lands, so heavily encumbered
that an honest investigation could not be borne. There
might, also, he a Imitted, be an unwillingness among
individuals in embarrassed circumstances, to have
their affairs laid bare, but such an unwillingness
should merge in the general good. From all he
could gather, from the opinions already expressed, he
came to the conclusion,that there was no difference re-
specting the advantages likely to result from a general
registry, the only difference being, bow the registry
could be carried into effect. They were then, how-
ever at the second reading of the bill ; let them allow

it then to go into committee, and then regulate it as
they pleased. He should not discuss the questions
whether the registry ought to be metropolitan o.• no
The committee was the best place to meet that ; but
if opposed in the—committee, the proper course would
be to agree to the proposition of the hon. and learned
member for Southwark. (Question, question.) 'He
considered registration a measure of the first import.
ance, and he again urged the propriety of going into
committee.

Mr. PEASE rose amid loud cries of " Question."
lie had met, he said, some time ago, a large portion
of the freeholders of South Durham, who were de-
cidedly opposed to the bill then before the house.
They considered their rights as Englishmen ought not
to be surrendered, which they would be if an oppressive
law like the present were passed. He considered the
present measure, if carried, would place the landed
and agricultural interest in great danger, and therefore
he should oppose the bill.
SirW. H 0 RNEwould vote for the second reading of
the bill. ( Question, question.)
Mr. CUTL AR FERGUSSON said the simple
question was, whether there was to be a registry or
not ; the question standing so, not being influenced
by the collateral one, if metropolitan or local. In
Scotland, for the last 200 years, there had been a
general registration, which had been productive of the
most beneficial effects. The fair and honest man
would not seek disguise, but the cheat would. By
the present bill he would be prevented from defraud-
ing his creditors. (Hear.) He trusted they would at
least permit the present bill to go into Committee.
Mr. TOOKE considered the house, from what it
had already heard, should pause before they proceeded
further. From what they already knew they would
be inclined to avoid trying an experiment from which
they could not retrace their steps. ( Hear, and Ques-
tion.)
An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn,
opposed the bill.
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR said, the losses,
the injuries, and the gross frauds which were practised
under the present system ought to be put a stop to,
and he thought that any hon. member who considered
them would at once support the principle of the bill
before the house.

Mr. PR YME contended that registration with all
the incumbrances attached to it under this bill, and
confined, as it was intended to be, entirely to the me-
tropolis, was not desirable, and he would therefore
vote against the bill.
Mr. ROLFE rose amidst loud cries of " Question."
He concurred fully in the principle of the bill, and
would give it his decided support.
Mr. W. BROUGHAM replied, after which
The house divided on the bill, when there appeared—
• For the second reading 45
Against it.
Majority against the second reading —ll6
The house then divided on Mr. Cayley's bill, when
the numbers were—

Ayes .
Noes .

. .
125
Majority against it . —57
Both bills were consequently lost for the session.

GENERAL POST-OFFICE DELIVERY BILL.
Mr. C. BERKELEY moved the second reading of the
General Post-office Delivery Bill.
Mr. PHILLPOTTS supported the motion.
Mr. V. SMITH said that if the nature of the bill were
generally known, it would create the utmost astonishment
in every town and hamlet in the country. He was at a
loss to discover what the object of the hon. member was.
The hon. member, he believed, proposed to assimilate the
post-office delivery in the country to that in London ; but
it remained to be seen if the project was practicable, or, if
practicable, desirable. The hon. member stated, that
under the present law the limits of the post-office delivery
were unlimited and undefined ; but such as the hon. mem-
ber proposed would create the greatest inconvenience, and
no circumstances could justify it. The Postmaster-
General had submitted the plan of the hon. member to the
inspectors, all of whom declared it to be impracticable.
The hon. gentleman must know that there must be limits
to the delivery. He (Mr. V. Smith) conceived that,
under these circumstances, the measure could not receive
the sanction of the house, and would therefore move,
" That the bill be read that day six months."
An Hos. MEMBER, whose name we did not learn,
seconded the amendment.

Mr. WARBURTON did not intend to support the bill ;
but he wished to state to the house, on the part of the
hon. member for Plymouth (Sir E. Codrington) what he
could have stated himself, had he been present. In Stone-
bouse—a town between Devonport and Plymouth—there
was a population of 40,000 souls, a considerable portion of
which population consisted of retired naval officers. They
had applied for a post-office to themselves ; as, under the
existing arrangement, they could not get their letters,
without paying an extra penny on each letter. He thought
that a town containing so large a population—especially as
so many of the inhabitants were retired naval officers, to
whom every penny was an object—ought to have its appli-
cation granted.
Mr. 'WALLACE, as we understood him, complained of
the expense to which the people of Cheltenham were sub-
jected from the arrangements that at present existed in
that town respecting the delivery of letters. In 1830
they had to pay 92,000 pennies on the delivery of their
letters ; in 1800, 103,000 pennies; in 1831, 123,000; in
1832, 146,000 ; and in 1833, 167,000 pennies. The hon.
member then proceeded to complain of the ridiculous state
of the law as regarded the transmission of newspapers. If
a newspaper was sent a few miles through a two-penny or
three-penny post-office, postage was charged, while it could
be sent free through the general post-office to the remotest
part of the kingdom. He (Mr. Wallace), in a correspond-
ence he had had on the subject of the post-office with the
venerable Sir Francis Freeling, whom he always did, and
always would, consider postmaster-general, had pointed
out this anomaly. There was another point on which be
wished to touch. The inhabitants of the metropolis suf-
fered great inconvenience in consequence of there being no
delivery on the Sabbath Day. He would ask the hon.
member smack (Laughter) why a delivery was not allowed
on Sunday ? Ile maintained there was no law in exist-
ence to prevent letters being delivered on the Sabbath
Day. He would not detain the house by entering further
into the subject now. The whole question of the post-
office would soon come on for discussion, when he would
lay the whole circumstances to which he had referred be-
fore the house.

Lord WILLIAM LENNOX rose to repel the vitupera-
tive and uncalled-for attack which the hon. member for
Greenock had made on his noble relative, the Postmaster-
General. He must know that Sir Francis Freeling was
not the Postmaster-General. The hon. gentleman had
advanced assertions without proof. He wished he (Mr.
Wallace) would bring forward his charges in some tangible
shape against the Postmaster-General, and then they would
be met and refuted.

Mr. GRANTLEY BERKELEY supported the Bill.
Mr. SPRING RICE was sure the house must see, that
there must necessarily be limits to the post office delivery.
He could speak to the fact, that the greatest exertions had
been made by the noble duke at the head of the Post
Office department, to meet the convenience of the public
in the delivery of the letters, and this, too, at a ponsider-
able sacrifice of revenue.

Mr. H. HUGHES) and Mr. G. F. YOUNG severally
supported the Bill.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that were this Bill to pass,
there would be a deficiency of revenue every year from
its operation, to the amount of between 8,000/. and
10,0001. What, then, would be the deficiency of revenue,
were the measure to be extended to the country generally ?
He would oppose the Bill.
Mr. V. SMITH could assure the hon. member for
Greenock, that all his complaints against the Post-office
would be inquired into; but he (Mr. V. Smith) wished
he would postpone all his small skirmishes until the 26th
of June, the day fixed for the great battle on the subject.
The House then divided, when their appeared—
For the motion 52
' For the amendment 66

Majority saint the bill
The Chimney Sweepers Bill went through a committee
pro forma.

RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLY BILL.

Mr. HARDY moved the second reacting of this bill.
Mr. FINCH supported it, and
Dr. LUSHINGTON objected to it. The existing law
presented no impediment to any persons assembling, and
preaching to any number of hearers he pleased. He had
but to register his name, and take out a license, which
would cost him :Is. 6d. The proposed bill appeared to him
calculated, in its indirect results, to produce much mischief
to the church ; and the liberty it gave might be perverted
to far different purposes than worship. He should there-
fore move as an amendment, that it be read that day six
months.
Mr. F. G. YOUNG seconded the amendment.

Mr. PEASE thought no obstruction whatever ought to
be put, to prevent any number of persons meeting to offer
up their prayers to the Creator whenever and wherever
they thought fit.
Air. WARBURTON approved of the principle of the
bill : the form of it might be altered in committee.
Lord SANDON thought the importance of the measure
merited the fullest consideration; he, therefore, should
suggest to the hon. member to postpone the second reading.
Air. SPRING RICE concurred in the suggestion.
Mr. HARDY rep ied.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY opposed the bill. He said he
would not give his consent, modified in any way, for lay-
men to be allowed to preach the Gospel.
Mr. AGLIONBY supported the bill.
After a few words from Mr. PRYME and Mr. RUTH-
NI/IZ, the house divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading
For the amendment
Majority —2s

The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to b(
ommitted on Wednesday next.

• SABBATH OBSERVANCE BILL.
On our re-admission to the galery,
Lord SANDON was stating that he wouli not opp-se
the bill.

Mr. CURTEIS objected to the introduction of the 13.11
at so late an hour. He would move, as an amendment,
the postponement of the bringing in of the bill for a week.
Lord MORPETH said the bill was of a very qualified
character, and he hoped the bringing of it in would not be
opposed.
Mr. WARBURTON would not oppose the bill. He
thought that every hon. member had better bring in a
bill on the subject, and then they could take the one which
they liked best. This was surely the best course, consi-
dering the number of such bills that had been prepared
both in the house and out of it.

The amendment having been negatived without a divi-
sion, the bill was brought in and read a first time.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at twenty minutes past two o'clock.