The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-21 00:00:00

THE SUN,

Such
was the law as laid down in their authorities. He
would then briefly call their attention to the oath taken by
cardinals. It was to the following effect : " I promise and
swear from this time forward and as long as I shall live to
~,he faithful and obedient to the bishopric of St. Peter, to his
holiness the Pope, the Head of the Catholic Church, and
that
- I will fight for (the word used was propugnor), endea-
vour and stand forth for him, against all others, with all my
strength. and power." Could a man after taking that oath
`axe the oath of allegiance to the Queen?—(Hear.) What
'was the rule in making a cardinal. "That man or boy (for
they aornetimes, too, made boys cardinals) having been made
cardinal, from that moment ceased to be under the control
of his father." Now it was not enough for the Pope to have
stocked our constitution by sending that caedinal, who was
sworn to fight f)r him against all others, and eight other
Persons to this country, but he should presume also to set
"'ett all the bishoprics in England. The Hon. Member here
referred to and read a couple of extracts from the Papal re-
script in reference to the old existing arrangements and cur-
-44 of this country, which the new bishops were to assist
;°4
modelling anew. Indeed he (Mr. Drummond) had
'never,s seen one of those pastoral letters which did IT t
ntain a falsehood in itself.—( Laughter.) It was
in a pastoral letter in Ireland the other day
at the see of Canterbury bad been established by Pope
iiregorv. Now, any one who took the trouble to read the
ir chertible Bede, might find that it was the King who had
'st,lstblished that see; and, indeed, there was no evidence of
a
r°l3e having attempted to do anything of himself in this
e°hetry witout the sanction and interference of the civil
b"wer. Buth— they had been told by the Papal organ (the
atlet newspaper we believe), that all their legislation upon
that subject would be null and void, because it was op-
trtll to the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. (The
h• Member here read an extract from the journal in class-
°
e 100). That was the arrogant tone assumed by their oppo-
ese t 2. He would, however, next pass to another class, the
class of utilitarians, who asked bow the matter would touch
their Pockets. These gentlemen said they wished to know
Whether any persons, or any class, were demanding their
otectiun. But did the negro slave ask for protection ?
'id the friendless child ask for protection? Did the poor
!`rl who was locked up in a convent, where she might be
either starved or h
flogged into acquiescence with the views
leer superiors, ask for protection ? (Cries of " Oh, oh.")
They might cry " Oh, oh," but he would tell them that
those nunneries were either prisons or brothels, they might
take their choice.
~The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said he rose to
°r
der (" Hear, hear," from the Roman Catholic Members.)
ead but that moment entered the House, and he had
heardli the Hon. Member for Surrey—unless he had mistaken
it words— he had heard him say that a nunnery was either
Prison or a brothel. He asked the Speaker whether it was
I°order for any Hon. Member to state that those nunneries
14 which resided ladies - (Hear, hear) —who devoted them-
selvesth to the service of God, who endeavoured to attain to
ega Perfection of all evangelical precepts—whether it was in
;rder for any Member of that House to refer to them in terms
disgraceful?— (Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER said that in answer to the question of the
k°le Earl he should say that nothing had fallen from the
n Member for Surrey which was inconsistent with the
freedom of debate allowed to Members of that House.
Mr. GRATTAN rose and hastily uttered a few words
Which did not reach us.
r. Mo()BE said he would suggest to the Hon. Member
that
the observations in which he was indulging were calcu-
-I;‘ed to lead to retor- and retaliation, and that it would not,
that opinion, be consistent with the dignity of the House
the Hon. Member should indulge in such language.
, Mr. DRUMMOND said he was obliged to any Hon. Mem-
rfrom whom he received any merited correction. But he
44 himself been interrupted in his argument by the excla-
th •
"es of lion. Gentlemen opposite. He would, however,
Proceed, and then they would see what was that evangelical
inerfection to which the Roman Catholic Church was advanc-
i • The Noble Earl (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey) had
1941 them on a former occasion that he had presented a peti-
ph to the Papal See for the very thing that had lately been
ett°ll,°; so that the Pope in sending over Cardinal Wiseman
pree', in establishing a Roman Catholic hierarchy, had done
e—Ltsely what the Romal Catholics in this country had
era Yea him to do. Now he (Mr. Drummond) had never
e 4 that petitin, but as the Noble Earl had said that it
,11 been presented he could have no doubt of the truth
,t
the
the statement. Bat he said that that was directly in
the teeth of another petition which had been presented to
hey papal Court by other Roman Catholics. He held in
ee- "and a petition, signed by Lord Petro and a number of
terY respectable Roman Catholic gentlemen, in which
vigel deprecated the adoptien of any scheme which would
Pti,ve missionaries of the religious orders of the
,
viiege of voting at the election of vicars apostolic.
ltditt that was the very result which would follow from the
Pt on of the scheme which had just been introduced into
Ito— country. Under that scheme the great mass of the
th,n,lah Catholic clergy would be in a worse position than
ttieiZ''leeiNisiincgles
bt:ey had previously occupied, and would b.e
Y without redress against the oppression of their
5-15 P; for they might at any moment be dismissed from
t7ir„
these bishops without any reason being as-
k:led for their dismissal. They were, however, generally
shfhtis who had no other means of gaining a livelihood, so
rUrt they would be dependent on the will of their bishops
etatheir daily bread. He held in his hand a letter written
t. Roman Catholic priest, a friend of his, and published
4t. ,Years ago, in which that reverend gentleman depre-
ee_c'e, any attempt to increase the powers of the vicars
leaet lic by converting them into bishops in the manner that
``ro4l recently been adopted. That showed that that was not
seetelY a question of title, and that it was not true that the
eotietit. change did not trench on the rights of the great
of the Roman Catholic clergy and laity. He held in
eet e"and a letter from a Roman Catholic in Rome, and
se„,,e`ethis very year, in which the writer stated that a brief
, being prepared to force on the Roman Catholics of
freguted the canon law of Rome, which was very different
h6titi the canon law of this country, inasmuch as it made
'")118 absolute masters of all Church temporalities, such
eb.uequests and benefices. The writer added that the great
meet of the creation of the new mock hierarchy was the in-
Leductien of that canon law, which would by that means
7 established for the first time in this country. He had
,00 letters from Roman Catholic clergymen denouncing
of
attempt to render them wholly dependent on the will
t' their bishops. (The Hon. Member here read some ex-
Pieta from those letters.) Now he would say that if no
tle else would stand up for those poor men, he had a
right to do so.—(Laughter from the Roman Catholic Mem-
tsera.) Dr. Ullathorne had asked whether information of
et description was communicated by Roman Catholic
t`til
treymeni n full communion with the Church ; but he knew
Well that they made themselves known they would at once
4adeprived of their livings. Dr. Wiseman had treated the
arge as one which would not affect the position of Roman
'itaittholics in this country. But he (Mr. Drummond) would
th if anything could be intended more dicectly to deceive
et: human Catholic laity than the pamphlet of Dr. Wise-
14t, ? Why, Dr. Wiseman knew that it was directly calcu-
kt ed to mislead the Roman Catholic laity. Let them look
‘h the pamphlet of Lord Shrewsbury, which had " let
Lee cat out of the bag." Dr. O'Finnan had been dismissed
e o an order from Rome from the bishopric of Killala, f r
114 other reason than that he had appealed to British law—
le at the
had appealed to the Court of Queen's Bench
‘ehe year 1837 ; and Lord Shrewsbury, in his letter
qt. "r• IPHale, said :—" Dr. O'Finnan, one of your
kiitie'S suffragans, was dispossessed of the diocese of
isee4'a, and another thurst into his place, as the successful
eeFe of an intrigue in Rome." The pretensions and the
eh:ey of the Papal See had remained at all times un-
iti;4geed• He had at that moment extracts from the writ-
We' of no less than 21 Popes—(A laugh)—he did not mean
(10%;ead them to the House—extending from the year 731
Werh to a very recent period, all asserting that the Popes
se;lords paramount in things temporal as well as in things
tf;llhal.—( Hear, hear.) There was not a doctrine of
lereelternan Catholic Church for which he could find
le,""ger or more unbroken testimony. One Pope said that
es aewho denied that he was lord over temporal matters
4,ke1l as over spiritual, were " wild beasts"—(Hear,
cf and laughter)—wero " asini"—were the " body
elis;„4t'!ii”—were " members of the devil and of Ants-
Ae„—" '—(Renewed cries of "Hear, hear," and laughter.) It
Ice well known, however, that Popes had deposed Sovereign
eillhnees, and had absolved their subjects from their elle-
tlaitn Seven councils had given decisions in favour of the
of the Popes to supreme temporal power. But he
dbe told that the claim had been disputed. Yes; but
„tgo been disputed? They had heard of the index expur-
th,'',etae, which contained a list of all beoks condemed by
lee papal See. The writings of none of these Popes had
Pilt into the index expurgatorius, while all the writings
qt,l!,ll,ting theit claim to temporal power, which were prin-
r" Pally the productions of Frenchmen, had been put into it.
tfel
faCt it w-ould be idle to deny that the Popes claimed a
diTPoral superiority over Christendom just as much as they
bc, over what was called St. Peter's patrimony. Dr.
lej:le, in his letter to Lord Liverpool, made use of the fol-
„ _Peg language :—" It is quite obvious that these claims
t;ei not their origin in the Gospel, or in the doctrines of
Roman Catholic Church, but in the state of society
ti Litt the zeal and the mistaken ambition of Popes, directed
tr insatiable avarice, pride, and thirst for power." But
I.l' claim bad, nevertheless, been put forward and en-
ireed. Pope Boniface, writing to Philip le Bel of
rtnce, after sending him many greetings, said—
; We wish you to know that you are subordinate to us, both
'h temporal and spiritual concerns ;" and Philip wrote back
as follows: - "Philip, by the grace of God, to Boniface,
acting as Pope, little or no greeting—(A laugh)—you are
ereby informed that in temporal concerns we are not sub-
ordinate to you" What were the means by which the
Popes had carried out their doctrines upon that subject?
Why, by excommunication and by a denial of the sa-
craments. Now, the sacraments had been given as instru-
ments of grace to the laity, but priests had tnken them as
instruments of persecution and villany. One of the things
Shout that Bill to be most regretted was, that it had prevented
the Roman Catholic laity from rebelling against the Synod
Thurlee.
bre POWER—No such thing.
Mr. DRUMMOND—Why, the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
-lale the Member for Athlone (Mr. Keogh) had told theta
.4,,
;; The Roman Catholic divines taught that all who
; 4411 ed for their own spiritua' advancement should yield an
-41hiPlicit obedience to their spiritual superiors wherever they
shine
In a well-known work they were required to
eaente "as a stick in the hands of a man who walked
etti'' tr. and as dead bodies, perfectly passionless." In an-
er passage it was stated that nothing could involve an ob-
,Tation to sin unless a superior commanded it in the name
„our Lord Jesus Christ, or in virtue of holy obedience.—
th(tear, hear.) Dr. Wiseman had lately published an e
i-
q)11 of the "Exercises" of Loyola. In the preface to that
ee"4011 he said, "In the Romn Catholic Church no cos
er allowed to trust himselfa in spiritual matters; the
`:reign Pontiff himself is obliged to trust to others in what
vhcerna his own soul." Now number 13 of those exercises
till", as follows :—" That we may in all things attain truth,
We way not err in anything, we ought ever to hold it as
be h't,ed principle that what we see white we must believe to
lee",“thk if the Church so commands it."—(Hear, hear.)
taught"as the evangelical holiness which Cardinal Wiseman
ce,,., Why those men appeared like Thugs. The Thugs
I;,'"trlitted murder as an act of worship ; and those men told
es as 411 act of worship. There were plenty of liars in the
eheee; but in that case they had men pretending to be wor-
IT; Pers of God ready for the sake of that worship to way _that
A;te black.—(Hear.) Talk of degradation! Where
th there any negro slave in such a state of degradation as
S 11;? Amidst all the horrors of the slave trade the negro was
ta," (1
,wed to ex
ep sress
aid that y truln
" honest man was the nion of the sugar
noblest work
which he
cf-(7
ou," Po a
I.4and men of every sect ought to disdain to_tell a lie.
country was indignant upon that subject. But some
teal; Members had stated most unwisely—and no one more
,;seler than the Hon. Member for Ayrshire—that the
0-Ktry did not care about the matter.
wir. OSWALD—I beg pardon, I never said so.— (Hear.)
thatriereßUMMOND continued—Why it had been said in
exe-i,Leouse over and over again that. the people had been
`ed to the agitation of that question, and that they did
Th'eare about it. He was sorry they had been exc ted in
hear,
they had been.—(Laughter, and derisive cries of
-Lear, hear," from the Roman Catholic Members.) He
4,,4h0 trader in Conciliation Hall nor in monster meetings.
Zreenewed laughter from the same Members.) Both in
teenifi Ple and in practice he hated their Whig doctrines and
t'Radicalperformances.— (Continued laugher.) Who-
brj,"l4leo3' ion. Members willed it or not, he would state the truth,
thick that if they agemptod to rule this couutry

by their mandate from the Flaminian- gate, no one was to be
allowed to challenge their anthority ? (Hear, hear.) The
Protestant Members of that House had not sworn yet to obey
that man ate, although Hon. Gentlemen opposite had done
so.—(Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh.") The people were
at present willing to ablde by the decision of tit- leaders of
the parties to which they looked up, and to abide by the
decision of that House. But if those leaders were to throw
them over, if the House were to refuse to give them sufficient
protection, they woul I take the law into their own hands ; and
the only way to preserve the public peace would be to give
them a Bill with adequate powers for ensuring the objects
they had in view. Of course when the nation was excite I
—(Laughter, and cries of "Hear," in a very loud and jeering
tone from a few of the Roman Catholic Members)—when the
people were excited. men were influenced by various motives;
but if there was any one feeling in which. the peoplee were
more unanimous than in any other, it was in an honest John
Bull hatred of imposture—( Hear, hear)—and of impostures
and in pity for their dupes.—(Derisive cheers from the Roman
Cotholic Members.) Were they going to have in this coun-
try cargoes of blinking statues, of bleeding pictures of liqui-
fying blood, of Virgin Mary's milk ?—(Loul cries of " Hear,
hear," from the same Members.)
Mr. OTLAIIERTY rose to order. He was not a very ex-
perienced Member of that House ; but he respectfully ap-
pealed to the English House of Commons—to a body which
he had always understood to be composed of men of gentle-
marly feeling—of men who would not permit any portion of
the Members of that House -(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—
or any portion of her Majesty's subjects, professing no matter
what creed they might conscientiously believe to be right—
who would not permit them to be wantonly insulted; and he
did hope that even at that moment there would be some ex-
pres-ion of feeling with resp.ct to the language which had
been held by the Hon. Gentleman whom he called to order.
—(Hear.) Ile believed that Gentleman's language was
worthy of his tastes as well as his judgment.
Sir G. GREY here rose, but immediately gave way to
other Members who seemed eager to address the House.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL moved the adjournment of the House.
Mr. P. HOWARD seconded the motion.—(Cries of
" Chair" and " Order.")
The STTTAKER said - Let me intreat of Hon. Members
not to interrupt the regular course of the debate. But at the
same time I do hope, that on a question of so much delicacy
as this, upon a matter which relates to the religion of a por-
tion of her Majesty's subjects, Hon. Members will abstain
from all expressions of an offensive character.—(Cheers.)
Mr. DRUMMOND again rose, but was for a moment in-
terrupted by
An HON. MEMBER on the benches occupied by the Ro-
man Catholic party, who exclaimed—" We are not here to
be insulted. "
Mr. DRUMMOND then proceeded to say, that an Hon.
Member had last night pointed out to them the fact that Car-
dinal Wiseman had specially selected—The Hon. Gentleman
had not concluded the sentence, when
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that the Hon. Member for Sur-
rey, having been reprimanded, ought in common decency to
apologise. - (Oh, oh.)
The ;SPEAKER said—The Honourable Gentleman is him-
self guilty of a breach of order. I did not call the Honour-
able Member for Surrey to order, nor did I venture to repri-
mand him. I only took the liberty of expressing a hope
that the Honourable Member, in the course of a debate so
delicate, and so exciting as the present, would abstain from
using expressions likely to cause irritation.—(Hear.)
Mr. MOORE rose to order—(Cries of "Order" and
" Chair.")—The expressions used by the Hon. Member for
Surrey were not merely disrespectful to the religious feelings
of some Members of that House, but would be out of order
in any Christian assembly.—(Great confusion,)
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Gentleman is clearly out of
order.

Mr. GRATTAN—I am an old Member of the House, and

I call the Hon. Member for Surrey to order in consequence
of the improper expressions he has used. I have a right—
and I know it has been done—to move that his words be
taken down. I ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, and the older Members of the House, if I am not
in order, and if your predecessors, Sir, have not taken that
course?
Mr. DRUMMOND rose to speak, but the uproar was so
great that he resumed his seat.
Mr. GRATTAN again insisted that he had a right to have
the words taken down.
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Gentleman is clearly mistaken
in his view of the rule. The Hon. Member for Surrey is
entitled by the rules of debate to use any expressions he
prov•ded he uses none personally offensive to any
II n Member or one disrespectful to the House. All that I
said was by way of caution, and not as a reprimand.
Mr. J. O'CO KNELL again rose .and insisted on his right
to address the House amidst the greatest confusion.
The SPEAKER—I must call on Hon. Members to support
me.—(Loud and protracted cheers, which lasted several
seconds.) I have already stated that the Hon. Member for
Surrey was not out of order, and I beg now that we Easy pro-
ceed With the debate.—(Renewed cheers )
Mr. DRUMM° gl) said—l was not out of order, and I was
not reprimanded ; but I was provoked by repeate t and offen-
sive interruptions to say the things which, in the heat of
argument, escaped my lips. I have not been reprimanded,
and I do not in substance retract one word, but I say that, if
I have given offence, whether merited or unmerited, to any
individual, I humbly beg his pardon.--(Hear, hear.) Now I
will go to another subject. Cardinal Wiseman has told you
that his model and example is Thomas a Becket, in whose
footsteps be would tread. The fate of Thomas a Becket
(continued the Hon. Member), cruel and unjust as it was,
was only the end of a long series of disputes, the object of
all which was to do what is now attempted—namely, to
create a hierarchy and establish a system which should ex-
empt the priesthood from the control of the temporal power.
The Protestantism of England had been characterised as de-
mcniacal. (Oh, oh.) Oh 1 they did not like to heaa re-
torts! but he asked server ego auditor tanturn, nunquam
reponam ?--(A laugh.) His belief was that this Bill, as far
as Ireland was concerned, was manifestly unjust and uncalled
for; but he thought they must pass a law t., prohibit car-
dinals from living in this country.—(Hear, hear.) They
must pass a law to mike all deeds done under this canon
law null and void de facto. They must enact a law, as to
convents and monasteries, similar to that existing in Bava-
ria, and not permit vows to be taken ; and he would extend
the Mortmain Acts, so as not to allow any dying man to be
robbed, whatever might be his sect.—(Hear, hear.) In ad-
dition to this, his belief was that they had arrived at a state
of things not only with regard to the Roman Catholics, but
also with regard to the Churches of England and Scotland
and all similar bodies, in which they could go on no longer.
There was a book which some of them were not allowed to
read, and that book contained several letters addressed to

laymen, and two letters addressed to two bishops. In
the letters to the laymen nothing was said about the love
of money, but in the letters to those two bishops it
was declared that the love of money was the root of all
evil. It was not necessary that they should imitate all
that their fathers had done, but they should do their duty in
their generation, as their fathers had done in theirs. He did
Rot deny that the supporr of religi,,n by the State might at
the commencement have been useful; he did not deny that
monkery might also have been useful; but it was his firm
conviction that these institutions had come to an end, and
that their utility had ceased, and that it would be impossible
to continue them. It was the tendency of priests of every
sect to domineer over the people, and he would conclude, in
the language of Cardinal Bembo, when he said he mixed
himself up with the concerns of priests with great reluc-
tance, for he generally found them guilty of all human
wickedness, covered with a diabolical hypocrisy.
The SPEAKER having left the chair for a few minutes,
the House presented a scene of great 'excitement, Hon.
Members assembling together in groups and engaging in
earnest conversation. Mr. H. Grattan crossed the House,
and addressed a few words to Mr. Drummond, accompanied
by very animated gesticulations, and retired to his seat, fol-
lowed by that Hon. Member, and Mr. H. Grattan was after-
wards surrounded by a large number of Irish Members, with
whom he was engaged in conversation when the Speaker re-
turned.
The Speaker having returned, order was restored, lied Sir
James Granam, Mr. Grattan, and Mr. Moore rose to ad-
dress the How-e.
Sir J. GRAHAM having been called upon by the Speaker,
proceeded to say—l am glad, Sir, a short pause has taken
place in our proceedings, and I hope nothing will fall from
me that will tend to disturb the gravity of this debate, and
the calmness with which the great subject now before us
ought to be discussed.—(Hear, hear.) I bend, Sir, implicitly
to your decision in every matter of order. I did not think
it was possible, until within the past half-hour, that any-
thing would Lave aggravatedialy sorrow on account of the
must say, that what has just oc
revival of this painful discussion, in which the subject of re-
ligionmxtr regret.—
I have seen a gentleman—an accomplished
o(onrereadr,ihshate sa involved
rthe;r butt
my
discussing, as entirely to forget what was due
gentleman and a scholar—so much heated by the subject
gs of a large body of gentlemen sitting iu this
of perfect equality.—(Hear, hear.) I will
thattt,House
the h e
my lips with repeting the words that fell from him,
not sully individually to
both with respect Hon. Members of
thei e 't
feelings la sin
terms
this House, in reference to r verahci y, and still less shall
I think of repeating an allusion he as made to the female
( heers)—who have devoted
relatives of those gentlemen
of- their God, according to their
themselves to the serviceconsciences, in lives of seclusion and in lives of chastity.--
(Cheers.) The orders of the House may on this occasion
the letter, but if Roman Catholic
have been observed to
Members are to sit here and
d to take part in our debates, how
House to be maintained if
are the rules and orders of the
(Hear hear Ass
scenes like this are to be repeated
made,
th.e)tone ander
lions of the kind that have been
must not be re sated,
manner in which they have beenmade, ,
if the freedom of deoate and the order or rules of the House
are any longer to be maintained.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member has said that he would enlarge the scope of this
debate, and he has treated us to a subject entirely of a reli-
gious kind. I shall venture also to enlarge the scope of the
debate, but I am happy to say I shall treat it as a political
question.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time, Sir, I think
that I should ill discharge my duty, considering the
immense extent of field now open on the question before
us, if I detained you any longer by those preliminary
remarks, and I shall proceed at once to enter into
the subject under discussion.-.(gear, hear.) Having, in a
short manner, addressed tha House on a former occasion with
reference to; thisjsubject, I shall, in what I mean to ad-
dress to you, repeat two admissions I made on a former oc-
casion. lam glad to make them, as they will tend to clear
the ground I intend to occupy. In the first place, I said,
what I now repeat, that I do think that the language used
by the Pope in this rescript, and by Cardinal Wiseman in his
pastoral letter, was arrogant in the extreme, and needlessly
offensive to the feelings of the great Protestant community
of this country.—(Cheers.) And I shall go further, and make
this second admission, that I think it was extremely difficult
for the servants of the Crown to have passed by that offence,
which had deeply wounded the Protestant feeling of a large
body of the community of Great Britain, in silence and con-
tempt,— (Hear.) And Ido think it might have been neces-
sary. and probably was necessary, in some authoritative way,
to re-assert those great Protestant principles which were
fixed at the Reformation—which were vindicated at the
Revolution—which were confirmed by the Act of Settle-
ment, and which were ratified on two memorable occasions
by the solemn compacts which were entered into, first on the
union of Scotland with England, and subsequently on the
union of Ireland with Great Britain.—(Hear.) I will not
now enter into the question that 'a as raised by the Hon.
Member for the University of Oxford, as to the various
modes by which this might be done. I will not now discuss
whether it was possible to issne a royal proclamation, as-
serting strongly the supremacy of the Sovereign relative to
all temporal matters • and also her spiritual supremacy as
of the Church of' England,
and by the members
and as established by its rules, g andgenerally appaling
her subjects to maintain the principles to which I have
alluded, as having been settled at the Reformation, at the
Revolution, and by the Act of Settlement.— (Hear.) I will
not, either, discuss whether it might be posssble to adopt
resolutions by the two Houses of Parliament, to be embodied
in an address, and sent up by the two Houses to the foot of
the Throne, or discus's the third suggestion which the Hon.
Gentleman made, that the offence which was given should
be matter of direct communication with the Court of Rome
through the medium of a special embassy.—(Hear, hear.)
There was one suggestion of my Honourable Friend to
which I could not give my assent after the experience
of the last summer in the Mediterranean ; that
was to sleet the thunder of the Vatican by the
wore forralitglgu thunder of her Majesty's fleet? wider

the orders of Sir William Parker, at Civita Vecchia or
Ancona. (Hear, hear.) The question before us is narrowed
as to the way in which it is proposed to meet this aggres-
sion, if legislation the right mode of meeting it—and if so,
if this be the right Bill to promote it.—( Hear, hear.) When
say this Bill, 1 hardly know whether it is my duty to dis-
cuss the Bill in the shape I hold it in my hand, or in the
amended shape in which the authors of the Bill propose to
pass it.— (He tr, hear.) The strict rule of the Hou e. and the
most proper rule, would lead me to discuss this Bill as it is,
and I am very much confirmed in my decision so to do, for
I confess my own first impression, when I heard the altera-
tion that would be made in Committee by her Majesty's
Government, was to entertain great doubt whether the pre-
amble of this Bill, taken in connexion with other laws,
would not carry into effect the provisions of the second and
third clauses.—( Hear.) That was my impression at first; I
had great doubt about it; but that impression was subse-
quently very much strengthened by the opinion quoted by
the Hon. Member for Dundalk, which I hold in my hand
and which was given by three eminent counsel—Mr. Bethel!,
Mr. Bramwell, and Mr. Surrege. Those ger.tlemen, being
authorities of the highest order, have given deliberately
their opinion that the first clause with the- preamble would
in fact carry into effect all the provisions of the second and
third clauses which her Majesty's Government proposed to
exclude. - (Hear.) That assertion was made before her
Majesty's Solicitor-General addressed the House—( Hear,
hear)—but I never heard that he grappled with the ques-
tion. It was not levity, lam sure, that caused him to p Iss
it over, and if it be not levity our position is a remarkable
one ; in that event, I apprehend, her Majesty's Government
would be bound to vote against the second reading of the
Bill.—(Laughter.) The first Minister of the Crown said
most frankly that the second and third clauses were con-
trary to their intentions, that they were clauses they would
not carry into effect. He said the second and third clauses
interfered with ordination in Ireland, and the collation to
benefices and traversed bequests made to bishops and priests
and their successors, and altogether would produce such an
effect as he neither contemplated nor desired, and that it
would be his duty to withdraw those clauses.—(Hear, hear.)
But, really, the withdrawal of the second and third clauses
will have no effect while the preamble and the first clause
stand.— (Hear, hear.) Then, Sir, her Majesty's Government
must feel that it is impossible for them, acting under a sense
of duty with reference to the second and third clauses, to
I maintain the first clause, if it have the effect which I appre-
hend they are not prepared to maintain.—(Hear.) I shall
now pass on to other considerations—to far greater and
higher considerations. My principal objection to the Bill is
first, that it is an extension of a penal enactment ; and in
the second place, that it is the reversal of a policy, and cal-
culated
for doing great evil. —(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now,
Sir, I am at once met by the serious difficulty which almost
always meets us whenever we legislate in the vain hope,
where a question of religion is concerned, of reconciling the
conflicting interests of Great Britain and Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) And if I had any doubt upon this matter before I
heard the speech of the lion. and Learned Gentleman the
Solicitor-General, I cannot now entertain the slightest doubt
that there never was a matter bearing so strongly upon the
peace and good-will of Ireland towards this country, or of
greater importance than the Bill we are now discussing.—
(Hear, hear.) I must, however, observe that I entirely agree
with her Majesty's Government in thinking that, as they
conceived the rights of the Crown were affected by what
is termed Papal aggression, and as they resolved to legislate
upon the subject, it was impossible to deal separately with
the case of Great Britain as centradistinguished with Ireland.
—(Hear, hear.) I think with them, that if there be
legislation of this kind attempted, it should be legislation
embracing the whole of the United Kingdom, and a great
additional objection to the argumeat of legislation being the
way to meet this aggression, is that it is absolutely neces-
sary, if you legislate for England, to embrace Ireland, and
to deal with the whole of the United Kingdom.—(Hear.)
And what falls from one of the law officers of the Crown
who has addressed you? It is quite clear from what the
Solicitor-General has said, that circumstances that arose in
Ireland have more to do with this Bill than even the arrival
of Cardinal Wiseman or the intention to found a hierarchy

in place of vicars-apostolic.-(Hear, hear.) What was the
circumstance on which he dwelt? He was pleased to de-
signate the prelate who is at the head of the Roman Catholic
Church in Ireland, the Catholic Archbishop of Armagh, as
an Italian monk.-(Hear, hear.) And not satisfied with that,
he dwelt upon the Synod of Thurles as one of the princi-
pal reasons why this legislation was necessary; and what
was the statement he made? He says, this Bill is effectual
for the purpose of doing what? These are his words; he
says, " They could not have an episcopal jurisdiction-they
could not introduce the canon law-they woull not as-
semble any synod to oppose the decrees of the Imperial
Parliament, unless they were bishops with territorial
titles, and that this Bill effectually prohibited."-(Hear,
hear.) Observe, by striking at territorial titles, it is the in-
tention of this Bill to put down the organized episcopacy of
Ireland, and to deprive them of the power of meeting in
synod ; and the reason assigned is, that the Pope, the spiri-
tual head of their Church, selected as a person to place at the
head of the prelacy a clergyman of the Church of Rome-
a person whom he designates as an Italian monk-(Hear.)
If this Bill be useful for any purpose, 1 doubt the law of the
Solicitor-General or his description being accurate; but if his
description be accurate, then I say all that was done in 1829,
admitting the Roman Catholics to an equality of civil rights,
is rendered as nothing by the blow you now direct against
them. For 200 years-long before Catholic emancipation -
there was an organized episcopacy in Ireland ; the canon law
did prevail in Ireland, unmutilated and undistuited by our
legislation, and, whether designated synods or not, the Ca-
tholic prelates of Ireland did assemble, and meet, and come to
conclasious on all matters spiritually affecting the people of
that country, and published their decisions, which had the
effect of synodical meetings. And if the purpose of that Bill
be what the Solicitor-General said, and its effect what I •be-
lieve he is wrong in stating it to be, then most undoubtedly
the blow you are going to inflict is infinitely more severe
than any fetter on the freedom of Roman Catholic worship
in Ireland that existed under the penal code, and previous to
the year 1829.-(Hear, hear.) I must be permitted since
this question presents itself to my mind in this aspect, and
with reference to what will be the bearing of this measure
upon Ireland, shortly to retrace our policy with regard to
bat country ; and, Sir, I have lately been struck by reading
a publication which within a short period has been given to
the world. I mean the correspondence of the late Lord
Londonderry, better known by the name of Lord Castlereagh.
It contains letters written at the time of the Union, and
there is amongst them a secret letter written by Lord Corn-
wallis to Lord Castlereagh in 1800, which appears to me to
be full of wisdom and of warning.-(Hear, hear.) He was a
man distinguished for the great services he had rendered to
his country in every part of the world, and at the time of
writing the letter he had been just diseharging the duty
of suppressing by force of arms a rebellion in Ireland.-
(Hear.) He had succeeded, and it was to be expected that,
flushed by a contest of that kind, and recent successes,
he would have been the very last to have councilled
what is termed concessions to the Roman Catholics of
Ireland; but what was the lesson of wisdom which he
taught? He said that if the Government of this country
at that time promoted the union, it should be promoted as
the means of effecting a great end, and that great end was
the emancipation of the Roman Catholics, the admission of
laymen to perfect equality of civil rights, and some endow-
ment for the Roman Catholics.-(Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt and
Lord Grenville on this side entirely coincided in opinion with
Lord Cornwallis, as did Lord Castlereagh, who was in Ire-
land. Lord Clare gave an unwilling consent to the union ;
he came over to England and used his influence with Mr.
Pitt to throw aside the condition of immediate emancipation
and endowment, and" made his support of the union con-
ditional on the surrender of that portion of the policy
of the Government. - (Hear, hear.) Lord Loughborough
obtained the ear of the King, and when his consent was
asked to that portion of the policy, King George 111.
positively refused his consent to emancipation.-(Hear
hear.) Lord Cornwallis was unwilling to remain
in Ireland under such circumstances, but he wrote
a letter to Lord Castlereagh-a secret letter-and,
with the permission of the House, I will read it : -
" Holding Ireland on cur present tenure, how are we to make
head against all Europe leagued for our destruction? Lord
Kilwarden again spoke to Littlehales on the subject, and told
him that the Catholics placed their trust in me, and in-
sinuated that his object of my remaining in the Government
after the completion of the union, was to carry the point for
them. Whatever Lord Loughborough's opinion may be of
the practicability of concession, he will, in a short time, or I
am much mistaken, find it still more impracticable to resist."
- Vol. 3, p. 418. "Timid men will not venture on any
change of system, however wise and just, unless their fears
are alarmed by pressing dangers."-Vol. 4, p. 20. "The
evil genius of Britain is the proscripticn of the Catholics."-
Vol. 4, p. 13. Now, this is the course; but perhaps the
House will allow me to refer to a subject of a more lively
though not a less instructive character. Lord Cornwallis
failed in being able to obtain any solid advantage fa the
Roman Catholics; but failing in that, he did not with-
hold from them that which was courteous if not agreeable
to their feelings. Now, here is a letter written
in very familiar terms, by Mr. Cooke, then the
under-secretary of Lord Castlereagh. He says:-
"We had a dinner at the Castle yesterday. The Titular
Primate of all Ireland, the Titular Primate of Ireland, the
President of Maynooth (and other noblemen and gentlemen
whom he names) formed part of the company." He adds,
"We were all very cheerful and pleasant, and the Lord-
Lieutenant made all the play."-(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Now, he did not hesitate to show them courtesies, and that
not by the exhibition of vice-regal spies' tours, but by in-
viting them to the Castle, and giving them their designa-
tions of" titular primate of all Ireland," and " titular primate
of Ireland." Now, Lord Granville writes also to Lord Cas-
tlereagh, and he says, " to neglect the Catholic clergy, or to
depress them in their station, or lessen their influence with
their flocks, must, I think, while so large a portion of the
Irish nation profess the Catholic religion, be the very reverse
of wisdom."-( Hear.) But, notwithstanding all these warn-
ings, until 1829 no concession was made to the Roman Ca-
tholics. Now, what happened in 1829 ? Why, " the Con-
queror of a hundred battles," the firmest man in all the world
-the firmest in resistance where a sense of duty compelled
him to resist-the Duke of Wellington-(Cheers)-he, in
concert with Sir R. Peel and Lord Lyndhurst, who had been
the greatest opponents of concession on principles which they
never hesitated to avow, and which they defended in Parlia-
ment with the greatest ability, without any change of
opinion, yielded reluctantly to an overwhelming necessity,
and made this concession at last, which Lord Cornwallis and
Mr. Pitt had wisely intendel to make at the time of the
union. - (Cheers.) Now, was this done partially or hesitat-
ingly by those eminent persons? It was my good fortune to
be associated with the Duke of Wellington, Lord Lyndhurst,
and Sir Robert Peel on the first occasion on which they really
resumed and enjoyed power after the concession had been
made. Did they ever hesitate to give effect in its broadest
sense to the new policy which circumstances had compelled
them to adopt? Some one said on a former occasion that the
tenderness of Sir Robert Peel's Government in matters re-
lating to religion was ever shown to the Catholics. I don't
think the Protestant Dissenters can be so ungrateful as to
forget some of the concessions that were madesto them. The
Dissenters' Chapel Act cannot be forgotten; it ought not to
be forgotten, because it was the occasion of the memorable
speech of my late lamented friend, Sir W. Follett, which
was the noblest effort of Parliamentary oratory he ever
made, and it was his greatest and last.-(Hear, hear.)
But with respect to the Catholics, that was the policy of
the. Duke of Wellington andf?esSliinrltßsionobdfeicrttahteePdeepl.rettlyDipdlatihnely
cast a longing eye towards the revival of the civil code ?
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hshel
was the conduct of Lord Lyndhurst, the .Lord Chancellor of
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ri n state somewhat anomalous, I admit: we
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proposed the entire repeal of the,statute ; the House of
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as inserted in the Relief
tent proceeding took place in the House of Lords in Commit-
tee with respect to that Bill. The clause imposing a penalty of
1001. upon
the assumption of titles derived from sees occu•