The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-07 00:00:00

SUN, LONDON,

T 11 E

roolo"-,en of the Q,-•ssl.,n they v,w.; told that certain things
be dc::e as to the ca.- a,ter of the country, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer gave an intimation of what he
intended to propose. The result was that there did not exist
a single great commercial house in the country that was not
affected by the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
The question was not, therefore, a party matter; the best
interests as well as the character of the country were con-
cerned in it; and if the House of Commons still kept them
in that state, like Mahomet'a coffin, suspended between
heaven and earth as regarded government, he (Mr. Roebuck)
appealed to the Noble Lord, as the responsible person,
whether ha would continue to lend the authority of his name
and character to this state of things.— (Cheers.) Any
Minister that regarded not only the interests of the country,
but also his own personal character, would not lend him-
self to such a condition.—(Cries of "Oh, oh!") He (Mr.
Roebuck) recollected when the party of the Noble Lord
put out the Administration of the Duke of Wellington,
that a member of that party, now in the other House,
rose to ask Sir Robert Peel whether he was about to
retain the Government.— (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
lived on minorities.—(Cheers.) It was contrary to the in-
terests of England and the spirit of the Constitution that
any Administration should maintain itself by the difficulty of
its position, and should live on the sufferance of its enemies
—(Cheers)—should be daily insulted by these conquests—
(Cheers)—and should be unable to sdvance a single one of
their own principles —(Cheers.) Therefore he (Mr. Roe-
buck) asked the Noble Lord whether, now that he had sus-
tained a fourth defeat on matters intimately connected with
the taxation of the country, and all its mercantile concerns, he
thought it were politic to retain possession of the Government ?
He believed it would be more satisfactory to the desires of
those who wished to advance the great principles which they
advocated, if the Noble Lord would say that he would not
consent any longer to such a state of things. If the House
of Commons took upon itself the administration of affairs it
should also take upon itself the responsibility of finding a
Government to rule the country.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Hon. Member for Sheffield has
asked me whether I intend to retain office under the present
circumstances. He stated that he thought it would be inju-
rious to the country if I should do so, and that the com-
mercial interests especially would suffer by that retention of
office. The Hon. Member has a perfect right to put any
question of that kind—any question which affects the in-
terests of the couotry ; but he has given me certain advice
with regard to my own personal character—(Loud cheers)
which I must respectfully beg to decline.—(Cheers.) Giving
the Hon. Gentleman every credit for his good intentions, I
will take care of my personal character myself.—(Renewed
cheering.) Sir, at another period—at a period when the
government of this country was in abeyance, and those to
whom it had been offered had not resolved to undertake the
charge of forming a Government—the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman said in this House that he wished me to consider
that the interests of the cause of free trade were in my
hands.—(Cheers and laughter.) What the Hon. Gentleman
meant precisely by that observation I will not pretend to
say; but of this I am fully aware, that the general interests
of the country. not of free trade only, but iTs general in-
terests, its welfare, its tranquillity, very much depends on
the conduct of those who have at the moment the direc-
tion of the Government.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, I have not
hesitated, when I thought that the direction of affairs ought
to be taken out of our hands unless we succeeded iii certain
objects, to stake the existence of the Government on those
questions and on those objects. - (Hear.) I did not hesitate
to do so when the question of the repeal of the Navigation
Laws was before Parliament. It was then frankly declived
that we were prepared for the consequence/ of the rejection
of that measure, and it was fully understood that we should
retire if that measure was rejected.—(Hear-) In courseith
of last year. differing from many who took other views w
respect to the suppression of the slave trade, I did not hesitate
to declare that I would not retain office one hour after any
vote of the House which would be in opposition to the course
then pursued.— (Hear.) But I think I have some right to
consider with my colleagues what is the fitting opportunity
when I shall retain office, and when I should lay our resigna-
tion before her Majesty.—(Hear.) I am speaking now in
the absence of any direct question of a want of confidence,
of which the result is perfectly plain— lam speaking with
respect to opinions. In the beginning of the present session
did I show such an anxiety for office as to make it necessary
that the Hon. Member for Sheffield should be my monitor—
(Cheers and laughter)—and should inform me when the mo-
ment is come when, at his bidding, I should lay my resigna-
tion before the Crown ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
says this is the fourth time we have been defeated. But
there is an observation which has been used, though couched
in vulgar language, by Lord Castlereagh in this House,
when leading the Government party, which may be appli-
cable here. He said, with respect to a rote to which the
House had come, to repeal a large portion of a tax, and
when we cheered loudly— he said—" I beg Gentlemen not to
halloo until they are out of the wood."—(Laughter.) Let us
observe now, with respect to these defeats to which the Hon.
Gentleman has alluded, one, the first, was with respect to a
Bill of the Hon. Member for Surrey. After we came into
office that question came again before the House, and the
decision to which it came was different, and the views which
I entertained were confirmed by a large majority.—(Hear,
hear.) So that our first defeat was reversed by a subse-
quent division. In another case we divided with respect to
the management of the woods and forests, and that is not
yet decided ; for it not intended to act on the decision of the
House. 'We intend to introduce a Bill on that subject s.-
miler to the one of last year, and the House will then have
a fair opportunity of deciding whether they will come or not
to the same decision which its majority did, or whether our
plan is preferable for the management of the woods and
forests. So that in the present state of affairs that which I
said ought to be done was defeated in one case, but it appears
it was followed by a victory over those who had been the
opponents of Government. The second case is not yet de-
cided. I come now to the third case—the division which
took place on the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose.
I do rot consider that there was anything in the nature of
the motion of the Hon. Member as indicating that the House
meant to say that it intended to take the Government into
its own hands.—(Hear, hear.) All these questions of taxa-
tion, and the burdens on the people, are questions on which
the House of Commons has a particular claim to have their
opinions listened to, and the Executive Government may
very fairly differ from it without any cause of resignation.
While they can maintain a sufficient revenue for the main-
tenance of the establishments which they consider necessary
for the safety and honour of the country, no financial differ-
ence with the House ought to influence their stability. We
now come to the fourth defeat—the motion which the Noble
Lord has carried by the vote of this evening. To this:question
I must apply the observations to which I referred, because
last year the Noble Lord was equally successful with another.
I think in the end the House will be of opinion that the
measure of the Noble Lord will not be adopted but by some
arrangement of colonial duties which will put him on some
fair footing. This being my opinion, I shall not tell the
Hon. Member for Sheffield that his request, made with that
suaviter in modo—( Laughter)—for which he is celebrated—.
(Hear, hear) - shall be complied with; I will not tell him
what other course I mean to pursue on the present occasion.
This is a matter of grave import—the character of a Govern-
ment ought not to be sacrificed, or even impaired, by sub-
mitting to frequent defeats—(" Hear, hear," from the Oppo-
sition) —without declaring that they could no longer carry
on the government of the country ; and at the same time,
on the other hand, no one will deny that the resignation of
a Government, under present circumstances, is a very grave
matter, and involves very grave consequences.-(Cheers.)
Some may think the consequences of that grave matter may
lead to good fortune, and some to bad: but whether of good
or bad fortune, no one can deny that it is a very grave and
important movement, not merely to that question of free
trade to which the Honourable and Learned Member for
Sheffield once alluded—(Hear, hear)—but also with regard
to many other questions of domestic and foreign policy that
might be affected by a change of Government in present cir-
cumstances.—(Hear.) All I can say is, that I trust that those
who have generally supported the Government, and as such
have taken up our views with regard to public policy, will
give us credit for doing for every interest in the country
what is required by the situation in which we are placed
- (Hear)—that we are .not disposed on the one hand to
allow the character of the Government to be impaired; it
is from no sense of affront—from no irritating feeling of
pique, I should make so important a decision as the res.gna-
tion of our offices with the view of changing the Govern-
' ment of the country.—( Hear, hear.) The change of a
Government is not a question to be bandied about in a chance
debate—(Hear, hear)—and I must ask the House to leave it
to us to make that decision. Taking it as I shall do with a
view to the general welfare of the country, I shall not have
to reproach my own conscience with having deserted any in-
terest_ which I was bound to uphold.—(Cheers.)
The House then went into Committee, Mr. Bznarat, in the
chair.

A resolution was proposed by Lord NAAS, in accordance
with the tenor of his speech. It was understood that the
resolution was opposed by the Government, and there were
loud cries, which lasted several minutes, for a division.
Mr. HUME rose to svak, but was for some time inaudi-
ble amid cries of " Divide, divide." He said the Noble Lord
had acted rightly in the reply which be gave to the question
put to him. It would put an end to proceedings in that
House it a Minister were to resign upon every question of
mere financial difference that might arise. He would submit
to the Noble Lord, parties having left the House after the
first division, under the impression that there would be no
other, whether it would not be mere in conformity with the
dignity of his station if he would allow that resolution to be
agreed to without another division.— (Loud cries of "Divide,
divide.")
Lord J. RUSSELL said, in answer to the last question
which the Hon. Member for Montrose had put to him, he
could say that he should leave it entirely in the hands of
Noble Lord opposite who had made the motion. He thought
it was perfectly fair to take onother division on that ques-
tion; and he did not think the Noble Lord could impute to
them a desire to take'any unfair advantage, as they would not
impute it to him. But he believed that the House was fuller
then than it was before.
Lord NAAS said the remark with which the Noble Lord
had concluded was the worst he could have said; for they
had divided in a House in which the Members had been at-
tentive listeners to the debate.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
it was rather hard for the Noble Lord to ask for another divi-
sion on that question, as those Members who had recently
entered the House had no opportunity of hearing the debate
on the subject. A different course was proposed then to what
had been pursued last year, for when a motion had been
Carried, no opposition bad been offered to a resolution named
in accordance with it. The present resolution was only
Putting in writing the principle to which they had agreed,
'Noble
and he did not think such a course would be adopted to-
wards him.
Lord
last year
J. RUSSELL said the circumstances of' the case of
'laity with
Lord had
were different from the present. Last year the
ing the questiste., to
him. , Th*
he might
had a majority of those who thought with
the SpeakieirYear, he had only had his majority by the vote of
usage, to
had declared that be only voted in confor-
mity
FRESHFIEBit.
course, give another opportunity for consider-
-akollear.) If the Noble Lord had any other
getting a hearin (Cries of " Divide.")
Strangers were then ordetrhe
g , m 0
would
moved
cluol
ds rose to
divide
1 de upon
addresspon the
ee
question.H ous e , b a t not
took
LAof
tredr place.
HAAS
A
few words from Lord J. RUSSELL,
that t
othe
withdraw, Chairman b
ushould
divisionrep ort
progress, and said he
AS said he would agree to the suggestion made,
n the question was
brought on, the division shouldext
on the understanding that when
in
the first instance take
place on j
h.isßruesossluEtiLoL said, when the question came on
n.
again, it should stand in the same position in which it now
stood.—(Cries of "Divide.")
The CHAIRMAN asked the House whether it
wa
tended to divide on the question "that the Chairmanrsepiolt
progress?" I. would be well to understand whether a
vision was to take place on that point or not.— (Hear, and
divide.) He then put the question, and declared the " Noes"
had it.
The Chairman then vacated the chair, and the House
resumed.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and asked leave
to sit again on Friday.
ST. ALBAN'S ELECTION COMMITTEE.
Mr. E. ELLICE then rose to ask leave to introduce a Bill
for the appointment of Commissioners to inquire into the ex-
istence of bribery in the borough of St. Alban's. He felt
he was bound to satisfy the House that there were grounds

for the introductien of this measure. Th`e case of the late
election of Si. Alban's was similar to the ca- ee of Sudbury
and Groat Yarmouth. The mode of proceeding adopted was
this—a house was taken, as it was supposed, fur the purposes
of a committee of one of the candidates. There were two
means of access to the principal room in it. Tee one was
through a particular street, and the other through an alley,
called by the 'expressive name
.of " Sovereign-alley." A
number of voters, it was proved, went by the street one by
one into this room, in which a person sat who, it was alleged,
was the person who bribed. Each voter, as he promised this
person his vote, went out by the other door. Although they
bad not the actual proof that this person referred to paid
money to these voters, it was satisfactorily given in evidence
that the latter, upon leaving the room, went into a public-
house, and there exhibited four or five sovereigns each. It
was true that those persons when examined swore they had not
received any money for their votes ; but when they swore that
they were not in possession of any money, it was distinctly'
proved by respectable evidence that they were in possession of
money. Very little doubt remained on the minds of the
Committee that they had received money in return for their
votes. The person who sat in the room, as described, was
Edwardes, who, however, was not examined. There was not
the slightest doubt in the minds of the Committee but that
bribery was committed. It was, however, necessary that
further inquiry should be instituted. In 1845 an election
took place at St. Albau'e, and a Committee was appointed to
try the merits of a petition presented against the election,
when it appeared that Mr. Edwardes was the prominent per-
son also on that occasion. Certain proceedings having then
taken place in Parliament in respect to that, as well as other
elections, there was a compromise entered into and the peti-
tion was withdrawn. The object of the Committee was
thereupon frustrated, but they made a special report of that
case to the House. If, then, there was to be an inquiry into
this matter, he submitted, upon the authority of the proceed-
ings taken by that House and the House of rds in the
Sudbury case, that the inquiry should proceed through a‘
commission. There could be but one opinion entertained
in respect to this subject, and that was that a system of.
bribery unhappily prevailed in St. Alban's to a most
alarming extent. It was, then, our bounden duty to do
everything in our power to put down this bribery, which
tended to lower the character of that Nouse and to degrade
and demoralise the parties who were immediately concerned
in it. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by asking leave to
introduce his Bill.
Mr. COBDEN rose to move the addition of words so as
to include in the, motion any bribery, treating, or corruption,
that might Lave taken place at the last election for the Fal-
kirk district of burghs. He represented on that occasion a
certain portion of the constituency who had complained of
these practices, and who had petitioned that the Falkirk
burghs might be included in the proposed inquiry. The
petitioners complained of the gross treating and demoralisa-
tion that had taken place, and stated that the spirit-shops
in certain localities had been opened to the inhabitants; at
the expense of the sitting Member. He had to inform the
House that the petition against the sitting Member had been
withdrawn without the knowledge of the parties who had
signed it. In a letter which he had received from the Pro-
vost of Falkirk he expressed the disappointment felt by the
electors at the withdrawal of the petition, and stated that
never since the Reform Bill had he witnessed such scenes
of drunkenness and dissipation as at the last election. He
(Mr. Cobden) had no feeling of hostility to either of the
parties who were engaged in that election. He believed
that both candidates were advocates of free trade, but there
was so little difference between their general politics, that
he had no political leaning to one mere than to the other.
The Falkirk burghs were five in number, some of them as
tar apart as thirty miles, and situated in different coun-
ties. It was difficult to understand upon what prin-
ciple they had been grouped together. Up to 1841
the character of these burghs, like that of most of the Scotch
burghs, bad been unimpeachable in point of political mo-
rality. The practices complained of began in 1841 in the
burgh of Airdrie, when the broiler of the present Member
was a candidate. In 1846, when Lord Lincoln was elected
in the room of Mr. Baird, who had resigned, he was op-
posed by Mr. Wilson, and at that election the malpractices
which had been before confined to Airdrie extended to the
other burghs. In 1847 Lord Lincoln stood again, and was
opposed by Mr. Boyd, and since then for scenes of dissipa-
tion and undue influence Falkirk and Hamilton had become
as bad as Airdrie. , With regard to the last election he held
in his hand depositions which had been taken by a legal
gentleman, and which corroborated the statements in the
petition as to the treating and demoralisation that had taken
place. One person, Robert Binney, a grocer and spirit dealer
in Grahamstown, a suburb of Falkirk, stated that ha was asked
to vote for Mr. Baird, and declined; that he was afterwards
visited by some of Mr. Baird's friends, particularly by a Mr.
M'Laren, an active supporter of Mr. Baird—that while they
were in his house several people came to the bar, when Mr.
Baird's friends:ordered him to give them what they wished, for
Mr. Baird was rich enough to pay. This man went on
to state that he considered that a sufficient order to keep
open .house till the day of nomination, and accordingly
supplied these people with whisky, brandy, porter, ale, and
vinegar cordial.—(Laughter.) He further stated than on the
day of nomination some of these people came to his house for
drink as early as six o'clock, and said they had come for their
"morning." Hon. Members who had been in Scotland
would perhaps know what a " morning" meant.—(A laugh.)
Several got drunk rapidly, and before nine o'clock seven er
eight were lying quite drunk opposite the door. Binney
states he gave one man two bottles of whisky to assist in
taking the drunken people away.—(Laughter.) Boys of 10
and 14 got drunk in the street. "No women," says Binney,
"were drunk iu my house, except those who came to take
their husbands home."—(Laughter, andcries of " Hear.")
Now he had in his hand at least a dozen of similar statements
from publicans. One of the name of Waugh, a spirit-dealer,
in Grahamstown, stated—" On the Monday before the nomi-
nation, Mr. Dl‘Laren, Mr. Baird's friend, and a writer to the
signet, his agent, came and told me to provide refreshment;
M'Laren said he would be responsible. In the course of the
evening 200; people came and had whisky, brandy, and rum
cordial.—(Hear, hear.) An order came to let them have
drink." He would now refer to the evidence of several re-
spectable inhabitants of these burghs. The respectable por-
tion of the inhabitants of such burghs would be greatly
to blame if they did not denounce the scenes of dissipa-
tion that they saw aronnd them. Even seven righteous
men might save such a burgh from becoming a political
Gomorrah. Dr. Hamilton, of Falkirk, returning home the
night before the election, states—" I observed two youths
lying in the middle of the road, and found both of them in a
beastly state of intoxication. On addressing them, one ex-
claimed, "Oh, there's open house to-night at Waugh's."—
(Hear.) The Rev.; Alexander M'Farlane, minister of the
united Presbyterian Church, states—" I was coming home
the night before the election from the Carron Works. I met
a great manypeople, and saw so much demoralisation as to
make me believe that it would neutralise all the good that
might have been otherwise effected by ministers of the Gos-
pel " (Hear.) He (Mr. Cobden) might be told that these
men so brutalised were not electors. If anything could
make the demoralisation more demoniacal it was the very
practices that had prevailed at the Falkirk election. There
f
o black
one anda
man—e.ollie sot
dofrtaHrgeakutbbehnerloekeeecyp;s:
were some spirit-dealers whose votes it was thought desir-
able to have. If the candidate had invited the voters into
a room and given each 51., it would have been virtue
itself compared with what had been done, for publicans
had been ordered to admit men, women, and chil-
dren, and to give them as much drink as they pleased,
The evil one himself could not have devised anything so
ed, that there was no more useful—no more ho-
pnuoahenflnHiedmedtsaets
however
domtmwhhi
eeoenvmsr
those Honourable
obl
feHi
itsr
aoh
mightonta
foe umds theropacebi
srelaeet
serve
veeGentlemant
th declarationshaoenc i e
thety
—nfwr ho-
nourable al
habits
aulaeb: ohgt
man who tried by his example toeaatrreesscouoffethe
age—lying
degradation.
man (Mr. Arnott) states The dap before the workingon electionTmthahinles
twelve in a
state
foundpur-
poses
ofm ysc smo ne
rug in a state of intoxication. My wife said she had
picked him up in the street, and he atterwards told me that
he had had whisky at Waugh's.— (Hear, hear.) My wife
tells me that before the election my daughter came to tell
her that her brother was fou in the street ; ' that she sa w
him brought home, when he vomited tremendously, and
then fell asleep.".—(Hear, hear.) Such was a sample of
the practices that had prevailed. The favourite mode of
corrupting the constituency of Falkirk was to open the pub-
lic-houses to all comers, and allow them to drink
what quantity they pleased of ardent spirits. Similar
gcurwrehdatathHadamtialktoeini.
placeHe haatdAqiurditreiel ltihtteletvowolnumine
brother were large employers of labour in the iron viorks
wsdcehesnicereSlilboiMnc r. Baird resided. The Hon. Member and his
near Airdrie. He asked what was the first duty of a suc-
cessful wealthy individual to the community that had grown
up under his auspices? Undoubtedly it was the first duty
of the capitalist to endeavour by his example and by their
education to lead that community up in the paths of sobriety
and of virtue,—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry to say that such
was not the case, here; that the enormous wealth possessed
by the family of the Hon. Member was exercised for a
totally different purpose.—(Hear, hear.) He said that the
scenes of debauchery begun in Airdrie when the brother of
the Hon. Member was a candidate; and that bad as the
scenes
beeni ernwlB4e last
1. er were
anothingses nf btroi b
ewr
yh a
at
gtahi
ne ys t ht elide
Thereyear, wereth they
two
y w
Provost at that time, and there was one ease of abduction in
.which the police were concerned.— (Hear, hear.) He re-
ferred to the case of a witness, who had been then offered
201. for his vote. He had ~ten cases of attempted
bribery, with the then Provost implicated in two of
them. It was sufficient to say of the treating that in
a population of less than 15,000 there had been 41 public-
houses kept open, in which drink was freely given to all who
came to the election. To show this he referred to the testi-
mony of two ministers of the Gospel, the Rev. James
M'Gowan and the Rev. Alexander Baron. Both corrobo-
rated what had been already stated, and the first testified
that it was a general desire, to prevent the recurrence of
such scenes, that the town should be disfranchised. He had,
inaddition to this, the sums charged by the public-houses for
supplying drink to all comers. The bills were of different
amounts, 40/., 80/., 901., 256/., 2801., 40/., 32/. And then
there was a mysterious man in this case, as in others. There
was a man who went by the significant name " Goldy," or
" the man with the bag."—(Laughter.) This man was sup-
posed to be a person of the name of Hallett, a writer, or a
writer's clerk in Ayr; and then to ascertain the facts with
respect to that person it was his wish to have a Committee
appointed.—(Hear, hear,) What he had now stated with
regard to Falkirk, Ayr, and Hamilton, was perfectly
correct, though in a mitigated form as regarded
Linlithgow and Lanark; and now, having laid these facts
before the House, he asked whether he was to be debarred
from inquiry by any technical rules? He said that here was
a case without precedent =here was a case that was charac-
terised with so much injustice that an investigation was ab-
solutely ntcessary. The manner in which it was his lot
now to call for it originated in an accidental reference he had
made to Falkirk. That allusion had brought to him hosts
of letters—appeals made to him by the Provost of Airdrie—
appeals made to him from temperance societies to call for
the disfranchisement of the borough. These appeals had
induced him to submit the question to the consideration of
the House.—( Hear, hear.) Were, he asked, these elections
to be carried on by anysuch process as he had just described?
—( Hear.) If they were, then he said to Hun. Members op-
posite, let them, beyond all others, mark the consequences;
men would make their way to seats in that House by passing
through a hundred gin-shops and public-houses. The ex-
penses of elections would be enormous. He was told that
the expense of a seat to the Hon. Member fbr the Falkirk
district was estimated as costing from. 5,0001. to 15,000/.
Men with hereditary landed property had seldom an
abundance of spare money in large sums. If this system
were to be perpetuated, they must abandon the chance of
being elected to moneyed men—to men who would spare
hard cash enough to find an enirance into that House. He
asked Hon. Members opposite whether they would look
upon such a change as that as an improvement to the cha-
racter of that House? Under the old system it was thought
that men had a family claim to seats in that House, and, for
hie own part, he declared he would rather be governed by
any oligarchy than submit patiently to the rule of those who,
hat entered into that House by the base means he had de-
.eorihed.—(Cheers. ) . Was that House, be asked, to be the
only place in England where such scenes were to be de-
scribed,eonld t
e l al nt
them
notin
that excitethe
tfeeme l
pi ne gr
asn
no
ef disgust?— a—avre. )ry He
va-
luable class of papers—and temperapnce societies had rung
with horror at the account of the murders that had been
itiriSdietiefS all MCA referring t 9 Parliamentary eke'
committed in Airdrie.—(Hear.) The House claimed exclu-
eiVe

NV .V.' _ll N ES D.A. V

Cops. Let t no;,• defeat itquia-y by a technic el otj
Oen, but include en inquii y hit() the proceedings at the x'al-
kirk district with eliat which was to investigate the proceed-
ings at St. Alban's. He moved an amendment to that effect.
Mr. ROEBUCK seconded the amendment.
Mr. BAIRD said that he had given no sanction to the open-
ing of public-houses for his election, and he did not believe
that his agents had done so —(Hear.) At the same time he
said that it the House desired to make any inquiry into the
proceedings at the last election, he had no objection that it
should do so.— (Cheers.) That scenes of drunkenness took
place there could be no doubt—(Hear)—for it was a com-
mon practice in a borough.—(Hear, hear.) It could be no
wonder that there should be scenes of drunkenness, because-
there was a population that received in wages 10,0001.
weekly. The principals of those establishments come in to
the election, and the men naturally also come into the town
to make merry.— (Hear.) But then. as to the last election,
the agents of the petitioners went through the borough, and
finding they could not subtantiate a case against him, the
petition was withdrawn.—(Cheers.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL hoped that there was no
one in the House that could have heard but with pain the
sad details that the lion. Member -for the \Vest Riding had
given of the proceedings at the Falkirk election. No one
could be told that there should be such debauchery without
feeling very deep regret Though he deemed it desirable
that an inquiry into such scenes should be made, still he
could not but feel the strongest objecticn that such an
inquiry should be mixed up with an investigation into other
transactions that were totally and essentially distinct.
The Bill that was now proposed had to go through another
place; and they must take care to do nothing that would
prevent its success there. In the one case, St. Alban's, they
had evidence taken before a Committee upon oath, and they
had a Bill prepared by the Chairman, at the desire of the
Committee by whom the case had been investigated. Such
a Bill, he said, was sure of success when it went to another
place; but the case mentioned by the Hon. Member for the
West Riding was based not upon the evidence taken upon
oath, and it would be unusual to engraft, by way of a rider,
such an inquiry upon another formally proposed to the
House. He suggested to the llon. Member to make his a
substantive motion, and not to endanger the Bill by com-
bining the two inquiries.—(Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that be might be permitted to
recall to the recollection of the House some remarkable cir-
cumstances which he had on a former occasion brought
before that House. There bad been six instances, after a
general election, of what he had ascertained to be corrupt
compromises. He had brought the circumstances on his own
personal statement before the House, and Sir Robert Peel
gave him the Committee he asked for. Not satisfied with
that, they had passed a Bill enabling parties to give evidence.
He had mentioned six cases, and Mr. Charles Buller men-

tioned another—Bridport; and he asked the House to en-
graft Bridport on his (Mr. Roebuck's) motion, and the
House agreed to do so, and then all these cases were brought
before the Committee of which he was chairman. Where,
then, was the difference between the two cases ? The At-
torney-General said that the one case was established on
oath. But what had been done with him referred only to
his own personal statement. It rested on that alone. And
now what occurred on the present occasion ? The Hon.
Member for Falkirk district demanded inquiry?—(Hear.)
Who, then, were the objecting parties? Not the Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite.— (Hear, bear). Then there was the Hon.
Member branded by the statement of the Hon. Member for
the West Riding of Yorkshire.—(Cries of " No, no.") Let
Hon Gentlemen wait until he finished. Thus was the Hon.
Member branded if he did not get the opportunity which he
asked for.—(Hear.) Who then stood between the Hon.
Member and his exculpation? Surely the Attorney-General
would not stand between him and it. What then prevented
the wish of the Hon. Member for the West Riding being ac-
ceded to, and thus helping the Hon. Member for the Falkirk
districts to a vindication?—not because he needed it.
( Hear.) Oh I no—but because he was accused.— (Cheers.)
To be accused was one thing; to be guelty was another; but
the Hon. Member was accused, and no doubt he would be
considered guilty if he were not allowed:to defend himself.
( Hear.) For what would they say? That friends who
well understood the thing did, when he pretended to
be ready to exculpate himself, help him by their votes with
a most useful cloak, by which he might cover himself from
the accusation when it had been made.—(Hear.) He asked
was that a position to let the Hon. Member occupy ?—( Hear.)
He assumed that the Hon. Member was —and he said this
with all violence to himself—innocent.—(Laughter.) Yes,
in such cases as those of Bolton, and Aylesbury, and Fal-
kirk, he did violence to himself in supposing that persons
were not guilty when they were charged with a knowledge
of the practices of corruption.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The lion. Member who made the motion had talked of
bribery only; but corruption and treating must be included
in the motion. Would the Hon. Gentleman say that one
house, not to say forty-one houses, open for treating, could
have been only open for purposes of patriotism? —(Laughter.)
Some one with a purse ready to pay those men who presided
over houses where treating of men, women, and children took
place must have been there, sent there by some one.—(Hear.)
It was a disgrace to that House to sit there, and the country
would repudiate them, if they dealt with great cases of immo-
rality, and allowed guilty parties to ride off on a snare
technicality raised by the Attorney-General. The tech-
nical objection which had been raised ought to be over-
ruled, and the Hon. Gentleman ought to be afforded a full
opportunity of exculpating himself. This he could not do
under the Bill, and therefore it was right for the House to
provide the Hon. Gentleman with the means of full exculpa-
tion. He begged of the House, if they desired to have a
moral influence in the country, not to interfere, but to let the
Hon. Gentleman have a fair trial, for the Hon. Gentleman
really was on his trial—(Hear)—and to let him clear him-
self, as he said he could, from the charges brought against
him. Of all the cases he had ever brought under the no-
tice of the Ilouse not one equalled in atrocity the present
case, and he trusted it wouid be fully sifted by the House.
Mr. ELLICE, jun., was unwilling to have anything grafted
on the Bill that would jeopardize it. It was clear the other
case was a matter for a commission to inquire into, and this
could be done by another Bill, which, when introduced,
could go on pari passe with the present Bill. He objected
to the amendment, not because he wished to throw any ob-
stacle in the way of inquiry, but because it would obstruct
the Bill.— (Hear.)
Mr. G. BANKES would say that the difficulties of the St.
Alban's case were sufficient of themselves, and he therefore
considered the amendment entirely inadmisible. If the
Hon. Member for the West Riding wished to defeat the in-
quiry, he could not take a more effectual step than by this
amendment. If the Act of Parliament, consequent on the
movement of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, had not been
thought strong enough at the time, why did the Hon. Gen-
tleman not make it stronger? The Act in question provided
for the case of the St. Alban's Committee, and he really
thought the Hon. Gentleman ought not to use a tyrannical
power of placing Members of that House in the position of
the Hon. Member for St. Alban's.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the Act in question was brought in by
Lord John Russell, and not by him.
Mr. BANKES was quite aware of that. He thought the
Hon. Gentleman ought to have beers content with the reme-
dies provided by that Act, rather than resort from time to
time to the tyranny of ex post facto law.—(Hear.) With
respect to the question before the House relating to the in-
troduction of a Bill by the Chairman of the Committee, he
should only say, as the Bill was brought in on the recom-
mendation of the Committee, that it ought to have weight with
that House. With reference to the Commission, he should
not be disposed to part with the control of the House over
it. lle would not name the Commissioners, but he suggested
whatever the number might be, that the House would keep
the inquiry in their hands in order that it might be made
searching and impartial.
Mr. HUME thought his Hon. Friend ought to withdraw
his motion, and proceed with the Bill.
Mr. FORBES knew the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baird) and
his family, and could speak as to the vast good they did in
the neighbourhood. He believed his Hon. Friend had been
hardly dealt with in the matter. People had been sent all
over the kingdom to get up evidence, and the gentlemen on
the other side had given all the weight of their names and
eloquence to make out the case against his Hon. Friend,
they at the same time being the partisans of the defeated
candidate.-- (Hear. )
Lord le RUSSELL would only say a few words on the
question. In the first place, the motion of his Hon. Friend
was founded on the report Of the Election Committee, which
stated that extensive bribery had been practised in the
conceive
of St. Alban's at the last election. He could not
a more legitimate ground for the introduction of a
Bill—(Hear)—and he had
no hesitation in saying he should
give his vote in favour of the introduction. But the Hon.
Member for the West Riding had brought forward another
case. He could not say that inquiry ought not to take place
with respect to that case, because from the notoriety and
it
scandal of that casecould
not be passed over by the
us Hoe ; but he could not agreeua the proposition for having
the two cases tried by the same
stood on different grounds ; One e Commission' The cases
them rested on the report
of the Select Committee, the otherhat only rested on a petition
H w
presented to that
ouee. course the Hon. Member
for the West Riding ought to take he was not prepared to
. say; but as he did not think the two cases should be mixed
together, he thought they ought to be treated separately, and
the Hon. Member have leave to withdraw his 13111.
Mr. FRESHFIELD could hardly trust himself to utter
the sentiments of his mind at the unfounded imputations of
the lion. and Learned Member for Sheffield. That Hon.
and Learned Member owed it to himself and tee House to
state on what his suspicions were founded. He asserted
that on the occurrence of the death of his Hon. Friend who
represented Boston, when he was induced to go down there,
that everything was conducted respectably. There was no
music, or anything to create entertainment provided.
Mr. LOCKHART could corroborate the statements of his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Forbes) with reference to the liberality,
charity, and piety of his Hon. Friend Mr. Bait.
After a few words from Mr. H. BERKELEY,
Mr. COBDEN said he was in the hands of the House as
to the course he should take. It had been suggested to him
to make a substantive motion for a Select Committee on the
matter, but the example of St. Alban's was tot one to en-
courage an Hon. Member to bane recourse to a Select Com-
mittee ; however, as the matter was before the House and
the public, he thought it the duty of the Government to see
what ought to be done in the matter. and he ventured to
suggest that the Lord Advocate for Scotland would be the
proper person to take charge of the matter.—(Hear.)
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the original
motion agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE, the following gen-
tlemen were nominated a Select Committee on the Steam
Navigation, &c., Bill:—Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Hume Mr.
Cardwell, Admiral Berkeley, Mr. William Brown, Mr. Hume,
Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. Alexander thistle, Mr.
Philip Miles, and Mr. Grogan.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE obtained leave to bring in a Bill
to extend the benefits of certain provisions of the General
Merchant Seamen's Act relating to apprentices bound to the
sea service, to apprentices bound to the sea service by boards
of guardians of the poor in Ireland, and to enable such
guardians
to place out boys in the naval service.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE obtained leave to bring'in a Bill
to amend an Act for empowering grand juries in Ireland to
present bridges, and tolls to be paid for passing the same, in
certain cases.
Mr. HUME postponed till to-marrow (this day) his
motion for a Select Committee to inquire into the mode of
assessing and collecting the property-tax ; and whether the
injustice of levying the same rate of charge upon terminable
as upon perpetual annuities, and upon fluctuating and
varying incomes from trades and professions as upon fixed
incomes, cannot be greatly modified, or altogether removed.
On the motion of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRE-
LAND, the following gentlemen were nominated a Select
Committee on Civil Bills, 8:e. (Ireland) Bill :—Mr. Attor-
ney-General for Ireland, Sir W. Somerville, Mr. French, Mr.
Keogh, Mr. Napier, Mr. Whiteside, Mr. Reynolds, Mr.
M'Cullagh, Mr. Anstey, Mr. Grogan, Viscount Bernard,
Captain Jones, Mr. Sergeant Murphy, Colonel Taylor, and
Mr. Sadleir.
Sir W. G. CRAIG moved for a Select Committee to con-
eider the state and operation of the Acts relating to the an-
nuity-tax, levied in Edinburgh, Cationgate, and Montrose,
and to report thereon; and whether any amendment on
these Acts, or re-adjustment of the tax, would be expedient;
and whether any other fund may be rendered available for
the purpose to which the annuity-tax is now applied.
Agreed to.
The Process and Practice (Ireland) Bill passed through
Committee.

The House adjourned at Half-past Ouo o'clock.