The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-16 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

BOVsE OF CO A MONS. July 15.
SELECT COMMITTEES.
Mr. EWAR f then rose to move, according to notice,
the following resolutions on this subject:-1. That the
number of Members composing Select Committees be
reduced (except when special cause be shown, to the
satisfaction of the House, for enlarging that
number) to seven. 2. Tnat the Members appointed
to serve oa Select Committees be selected by a
Committee of Selection. 3. That it be the duty of the
Committee of Selection to choose only such members to
serve on Select Committees as may declare their ability
to, give their regular attendance at such Committees;
add that the Committee of Selection ascer-
tain this fact from such Members beforehand. 4.
That it be an objet of the Committee of Selection, in
the formation ot Select Committees, to combine a due
proportion of the younger Members with the more ex-
p rienced Members of the House. 5. That three Mem
b4s be held a sufficient quorum of Members for Select
COmmittees." He believed that by reducing the number
of Members on Select Committees to five, and by taking
&stay all local interests, Committees enjoyed more of the
coilfidence of the House and the country. About fifteen
years ago the Committees consisted of forty Members;
but very few of them usually attended. A change had
taken place, and that change was for the advantage of the
House. The resolution he proposed involved two main
pitinciples—the reduction of the number and the enforce,
mint of attendance. In all legislative bodies except
Parliament the number of members on committees was
s all. In France it was only nine, and it was found that
3
t 1 practical working number was only seven. The re-
d ced number was found to answer in Committees upon
Prlivate Bills. By rendering the attendance of Members
constant, service would be done for the public; this,
holwever, could only be effected in the first instance by
it pting the smaller number. His (Mr. Eware's) object
u
w s t
to render the proceedings of the House more simple
amore effeteive.
Mr. HOBHOUSE seconded the motion.
lMr. E. DENISON saw great inconvenience from the
selection being confided to a Committee of Selection as
contradistinguiehed from the present Committee of Se-
lecition : it would also impede the action of the latter
Cdmmittee. He considered it would be impracticable to
coinsult each Member as to whether be wished to serve
of l a Committee. At this time of the session it would
hardly be desirable to come to any conclusion upon the
motion, seeing that all the Committees were formed; and
tut, therefore, suggested that the motion should be de-
feired to next session, when it might be referred to a
Stet Committee.
it R. H. INGLIS said all the arguments used by the
110 n. Gentleman in 1839 were now available against his
pr position in 1851. The resolution respecting private
Committees had worked well; but there was no parity
between public and private Committees, and conse-
qeletely he (Sir R. H. Inglis) could not agree to the
motion. Neither the House nor the Government could
consent to relinquish the power of nominating Select
Committees un important national subjects, besides
which the selection of any Committee of Selection would
not give satisfaction to both parties. The practice at
present was to appoint no gentleman to a Select Com-
mittee who bad not signified his intention to attend on
such Committee. He suggested that any report of a
Committee should be signed by the Members who con-
curred iii it; and he concarred in the recommendation
..,f his Hon. Friend to refer the whole subject next ses-
sion to a Select Committee.
Mr. 11t )BHOUSb.I supported the motion. He com-
plained of the Exclusion ot certain Members from public
Committees, and maintained that the representa'ives of
the people in Parliament should be pares inter se—equal
among themselves. He could not agree that the House
weuld riot wish to part with the power of nominating
Select Committees, seeing that in practice the
Huse had already parted with it to the Government
orb to the majority. The simultaneous appoint-
ment of one Member also to serve on several Com-
mittees was a decided grievance. He, therefore, thought
tilt plan of his Ron. Friend a great improvement on the
existing system. Although seven or eight years a
Member of that House, he (Mr. Hobbouse) had never
beim called to serve on a single Select Committee.
Tlpese Committees virtually governed the country,
however; and therefore it was ton much power to give
to the Government or to the leader of the Opposition the
nopnination of the Members.
Lb inquiries before Coramitteea would not be satisfae-
to
Mr. C. LEWIS could not support the motion. He
i
t
up rehended that if the plan in question was adopted,
ty, unless the practice of allowing counsel to be heard
was introduced. This he did not consider possible;
and theretore. as he believed the proposal would produce
far greater evils than existed, he felt called upon to give
it his decided opposition.
Mr. HUME said the mode of election was not based
uptin a right principle. Though many competent
Members were unjustly excluded from Committees, the
reslult of his experience showed the greatest difficulty in
obtaining the attendance of those who where nominated
to these Committees. Taking an average, it would be
fonnd that in a Committee of fifteen no more than seven
attended. He would therefore reduce the number of
Select Committees to that figure, but he would also
make attendance compulsory.—(Hear, hear.) He con-
sidered that the Committee of Selection had acted un-
jusitly in placing Members of that House upon private
Committees to prevent them serving on public Com-
mittees, and he hoped the Government could entertain
the subject in such a manner as to produce some satis-
factory result.
Mr. BROTHERTON was not sanguine as to the effect
of the change proposed by the Hon. Member, seeing
that public and private Committees were conducted in
a very different manner. He thought that when gentle-
men manifested the possession of information and ability
they were generally selected by the House to serve on
public Committees. At the same time, he did not wish
to stand for a moment in the way of improvement.
Mr. E WART replied. He would be satisfied if his
resolution were referred to a Select Committee. It ap-
peered to be generally admitted in the course of the de-
bate that some cbange in the present system was neces-
sary. He did not absolutely limit himself to the number
of seven, but he maintained that he was quite consistent
with himself when he proposed the reduction of the pre-
sent number of members on Select Committees. He could
not, however, consent to put off his motion until next
session, as he considered the present was the proper
time to entertain the subject.
Lord J. RIT•ISELL could not consent to either of the
propositions made by the Hon. Member. He was not,
however, opposed to the appointment of a Select Com
mitt.* upon this subject, it the House was disposed to
entertain-such a proposition, early next session. He did
not believe that any object could be attained by the ap-
pointment of such a Committee this session.
On the suggestion of Mr. HU ME,
Mr. E W ART consented to withdraw his proposition.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
MILLING INTEREST IN IRELAND.
Lord NAAS rose to move that the House should, on a
future day, resolve itself into a Committee to take into
consideration the present sties of the milling interest in
Ireland. The Noble Lord began by referring to the
manner in which the interests of agriculture in Ireland,
as well as its linen and other manufactures, had for-
merly been cherished and fostered by the Legislature.
The linen trade was now comparatively lost, and he was
prepared to prove that the important interest referred to
in his motion had also been involved in ruin—results
produced in both cases by the legislation of that House.
—(Hear, hear.) It was formerly the practice of the
Irish millers to purchase large supplies of grain during
the period that elapsed between harvest and spring, and
to export flour into the English market with great ad-
vantage to themselves and to the country to which they
belonged; but that trade had now completely ceased, as
they were beaten out of the field by the enormous im-
portations of American and French flour that took place.
—(Hear, hear.) He found, from the returns of the
Beard of Trade, thatlin 1845 the quantity of wheat ex-
ported to England was
372,009 quarters; in 1850 it
was only 76,000 quarters, being a decrease of 79 per
cent.—(Hear, hear.) Of wheaten meal sod flour there
were exported to England in 1849, not less than
1,422,900 cwt.; and in 1850 only 397,000 cwts., being a
decrease of 72 per
cent.—(Hear , hear.) But the loss
did not end here, for Ireland had been obliged to im-
port these articles, Last year she imported 2,200,000
quarters of wheat, of which about 1,000,000 were from
foreign parts, m4_570,090 owt. of wheat meol and AIM

anihe could not calculate the loss on these stubs arti-
cles of wheat and wheat flour at less than 2,600,0001., or
almost one-sixth of the entire valuation of the country.
—(Hear, hear.) In such a state of things, it was not to
be wondered at that persons connected with agriculture
should be dissatisfied with their position —(Hear. hear.)
With regard to the immediate question before the
House, he had entered kW correspondence with all the
millers in Ireland, and had obtained very valuable infor-
mation for the benefit of the House. He had ascer-
tained that the value of 349 mills in Ireland was not
less than 1,487.310/4 and, with regard to 321, he had
before him a detailed statement of the time they were
now working. Only 39 millers stated that they were
working full time, 7 not full time, 6 three-fourths
etne, 6 two-third time, 81 half-time, 48 one-third
time, 18 one-four!' time, 5 one-six h time, and so
on. Here the Noble. Lord read a number of indivi-
dual statements, to show the actual condition of the
mills with which they were connected, the hands em-
ployed, &c., and gave it as a conclusion at which gen-
tlemen well-informed upon the matter had arrived, that
the number of soul-, dependent on the corn mills in Ire-
lend amounted to 123,000. From all parts of Ireland
the information was, that great distress existed among
those connected with the mills; and he behaved there
'was not one miller in that country who could say he
was in the same condition that he had been in before the
recent changes commenced.—(Hear, hear.) Now, as to
the cause of all this distress, be presumed no one would
deny that it was occasioned entirely by the enormous
imported .n of foreign fl ,ur; and, seeing that the dis-
tress had been much accelerated within the last yeer,
and that the importations of French fieur dated from
that period, he would confine himself chiefly to that
point. It bad been said the other day that Normandy
had become to all intents and purposed an English
county, and the facts relative to the importation of flour
from that part of France seemed to bear out the asser-
tion. Now, this state of matters was not foreseen by
the authors of the measure of 1846. It was always con-
ended that we had nothing to fear in this ouuntry from
French flour; but how had the prophecies on that point
seen verified ? it appeared that in 1849 the
quantity of wheat flour imported from France
was 287.502 quarters, and in 1850 it was
550,000 quarters. In the last quarter of 1850
the importation was 165.000 quarters. and in the first
quarter of this year it amounted to 226,547 quarters.
showing that the importation had doubled during the
first quarter oftlpreser t year as compared with the
lest quarter of 1830 —(Hear, hear) According to a
statement made in the report of a Committee of the
French Assembly appointed to inquire into the subject
of grinding and exportine grain, it appeared chat in the
year ending August 1. 1850, there were exported from
France 418,549 quarters et wheat, and that in seven sub-
sequent months the quantity exported was 554,443
quarters. white in the first of those periods there had
been exported 506,000 quarters of flour, and the latter
period of seven months 525,000 quarters.—(Hear, hear.)
It had been stated in another place that the French
miller was restricted to the produce of the French soil.
Bat the French miller had the privilege of grinding
foreign wheat in bond for expoitation. That such was
the case appeared from inquiries made by an English
miller who had seen the statement that the French miller
was restricted to French produce. The flour ground in
bond must be exported within 20 days from the tone of
importation, but not a single pound ot flour was allowed
to be imported into France. There was nothing to pre-
vent France from grinding the groin supplied to this
country from the shores of the Mediterranean; and the
privilege of grinding in bond, it was understood, would
be exercised to an enormous amount. It was a curious
circumstance connected with the increase in the im-
port of foreign corn that the price of bran, pollard,
and the coarser sorts of flour, had been materially
enhanced, as appeared from returns and calculations
in his possession. It was the practice of those who
advocated the policy which had for some years b. eu
predominant to underrate the capabilities of the classes
affected by that policy; bet he thought there was no-
thing so unfounded as the assertion that the English or
Irish miller was interior, as regarded the application ot
machinery, to the French miller. The principal art in
milling consisted in the entire separation of the flour
from the bran; and the great test of superiority in mean-
facture was lightness ef bran and comparative weight of
flour. As regarded the quantity of flour he got from a
quarter of wheat, the British miller was not inferior to
the French or the Belgian; and he had, besides, the com-
mend of the best machinery, the superiority of this coun-
try over all others in that department being evident to
every one who visited the' Great Exhibition. Oes of the
most successful mills in France, indeed, was called " the
English mill," in allusion to its having obtained its ma-
chinery from this country. But the miller of this coun-
try was beaten by the French miller, because he bad
labour cheaper, was less taxed, and enjoyed protecting
laws, because the Government, instead of opposing his
manufacture, and throwing every obstacle in his way, had
from time to time taken his case into consideration, and
done everything a Government could do to increase and
foster the manufacture of French 8 our. France had car-
ried out that policy still more since 1846; and the re-
commendations of a commission to whom the subject had
been retell ed showed that the system most appreved in
France was one which had a tendency to encourage the
retention of the coarser kinds of grain in that country,
and the exportation of the finer qualities. There was a
remarkable contrast between the large increase in the
importation of flour front France into England and the
diminution in the export of linen yarn from Eeglity.cl to
France, that export having fallen to 1-30th of the export
in 1842. The question on which he asked the opinion of
the House was whether they were prepared to continue
without alteration a system which had produced such
evil results? He had proved that an interest second to
none in the country, the interest of the manufacturer of
wheaten flour, was in a more distr. aged state, perhaps,
than even that of the farmer. How long would they
continue that system? How many classes would they
see destroyed before they admitted that it had not done
all they had expected? The present syotem was
no more one of free trade than it was of any , hiug else;
it was a system of protection to the foreigner. flame
with whom he acted might be accused of being monopo-
lists, of wishing to increase the price of food to the la-
bourer; but their answer was that they desired the
market thrown open to their own produce as well as to
that of foreigners. They desired that corn grown on the
banks of the Mississippi or the Elbe, or on the shores of
the Baltic, should compete on fair terms, should pay the
same contribution to tne state, and be subject somewhat
to the same charges as that grown by the British farmer.
—(Hear, hear.) On the same principle they asked the
interposition of the House on behalf of the miller and
the manufacturer. He believed that the country at no
very distant period would be prepared to reconsider the
subject—(Hear, hear)—and revert to a principle which
was so deeply implanted in our nature that it even found
expression in the language which described the first law
of nature—" selt-protection."—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord concluded by proposing the motion.
Mr. LABOUC HERE observed, that though it was
not his fortune to agree with the Noble Lord either in
his conclusion or his argument, yet he willing'y bore
testimony to the industry the Noble Lord bal evinced
in making himself acquainted with the facts of the case,
as well as to the temperate manner in which the sub-
ject hail been introduced.—(Hear. hear.) The motion
of the Noble Lord, however, ought rather to have been
one asking the House, not to restore protection to the
Irish miller, but to restore the corn-laws; tor, though it
only asked the House to go into Committee to reconsider
the case with respect to the Irash millers, yet it was im-
possible for the House to reconsider the case of the Irish
millers without rec moldering that also of the English.
If there Wes to be protection at all, the farmer had as
great a right to it as others—(Hear, hear)—but if the
House thought their recent policy erroneous, he (Mr.
Labouchere) typed they would take some other mode of
expressing that opinion than by assenting oi the motion
of the Noble Lord; and, it they did not mean to restore
protection as a principle, they did nothing but delude this
class of men by the preposal brought before the House. He
thought he should be able to show, not that individual mil-
lers did not suffer distress, for circumstances had changed,
but that as a class there was not the slightest ground
for asserting that they had not had quite as much em
ployment within the last few years as previously. Nei-
ther did he believe there was any reason to suppose that
the British millers were not just as able to compete with
the foreign millers as any class of British manufec,
curers were with foreign. The argument of the Noble
Lord with respect to the wages of labour was applicable
to other branches of industry as well. With respect to
the question, whether a special case had been made out
for giving protection to millers as a class, he did be-
lieve that nothing more preposterous could be urged.
It was proved to demonstration that the millers of the
United Kingdom had, since the repeal of the corn-laws,
had as much to do as before. The produce grown in
the United Kingdom had not dimini.hed. There was
a great import of breadstuffs; but in what form? Mainly
in grain. He had a statement of the quantities 'if wheat
and wheaten flour imported into the United Kingdom
within the last ten years. In 1841, 2,409,000 quarters
of wheat were imported, and what was . vivalent to
360,000 quarters of wheat finir; in 1842, 2 717.000
quarters of wheat, 322,000 quarters of wheat flour. He
should not detain the House by reading the numbers
for each year. In 1847 it appeared that 2,656,000
quarters of wheat were imported, and 1,808 000 quarters
of fl cur; in 1849, 3,845,000 quarters of wheat, and
959,000 quarters of flour; in 1850, 3,754,000 quarters of
wheat, and 1,101,000 qtierters of fl ,nr; and for the
three months ending sth of April, 1251, 1,105,000
quarters of wheat, and 382 000 quarters of fl air. All
the wheat imported- in the shape of grain went to the
millers of this country. He had a return also which re-
lated to Ireland alone, but without the equivalent in
quarters being given for flour. In 1846 82,000 quarters
of wheat in grain were imported into Ireland, 43,000
cwt, of wheat fl mt.; in 1847, 238,000 quarters of wheat,
442,000 cwt. of flour; in 1848, 297.000 quarters of
wheat, 122 000 cwt. of fl tut; in 1849, 543 000 quarters
of wheat, 218,000 cwt. of flour; and in the three menths
ending the sth of April last, 415,000 quarters of wheat,
and 99 000 cwt. or fl ,ur, or about 25,000 quarters.
In point of fact, he believed a greet alteration in
the circumstances of the trade was guff g on, one
which was in operation before the change was made
in the laws regulating the importation of grain. There
were parties at that very moment extending their
business in the metropolis. He was informed that near
Blackfriars an immense manufacture existed, the parties
being able to turn out 7,000 or 8 000 sacks of flour
from 70 or 80 pairs of stones. In all reap. eta te be-
lieved such millers were able to compete with their fo-
reign rivals. Competition had acted as a stimulus, and
be was told the greatest improvement was taking place
in milling both here and abroad. At Deptford an inge-
nious improvement had been introduced, e flesh had been
attended with eminently successful results. Be could
entertain no fear as to the successful competition by she
millers of this country with those of every part of 'the
world. With respect to the export of fine wheat from
France and the retention of pollard for home consum,P-
tiOnt he should only remark that if it was worth
.I.qhio