The Sun.
London, England, 1802-06-04 00:00:00

IMPER.IdL PARLI,I.IIE-NT.

HOUSE OF PEERS,

JUNE 3.

Conusst were further heard relative to the Scotch Appeal,
Mbkitti.ays. and intivs-row v. CAnt.l.l., after which the
further cormideratiou of-the-ease was postponed till WedAus-
day next .
The Royal Assent was given by Commission to twenty-,
two Publie and Private Acts ; among the tormer were the
Elkton B:11, the Sugar Duty Drawback Bill, the Irish Na-
vigation 13i/l, the Medicine. Duty pill, aril the Irish Sinking
lund Bili.
The Lords COVCITtiSSiOIIerS were, the LORD CH ANCif,tma,
LOlft WALSINGHAM,AIId Lord AucKLAND.
he Ceder ot' the Day respeCting the Eari of Sur o K's
Motion relative to the conduet.6l_ His Majesty's late Mini-
sters was cinienarged, and renewed for Wednesday next, and
their Lordships to be summoned accordingly. •

The Ea'rl ofD'ARATLEY, after calling the.atten-
tion of their Lordships generally to the proceedings
-Which had taken place in a committee of Privi-
leges on a former Session, relative to the pedigree,
&c. of the Earl of BiRKELEY, and expressing the
Strong feelings which lie entertained on that sullied,
and '
which he doubted. not were generally entertain-
ed by their Lordships, moved to the following ef-
fed,: " That certain proceeding's in the Committee
of .Privileges, the consideration of which was ad-
journed on the zoth of June 1799, be -revived on
Thiirsday next, order that the same be they taken
into further consideration."

- This proposition produced some observations
from Lord THURLOW and the LORD CHANC Ett,ow.
The former was adverse to the Motion ; and the lat-
ter in the course of what he said, took the opportu-
nity to state certain proceedings which had.taken
place in the Court of Chancery relative to the
subject.
The Earl of DARNLE.Y spoke shortly in explana.
tion. After which the question was put, and the
Motion negatived.-
Lord THURLQW then moved, That the standing
Order, No. 94, upon which, as we could coiled,
certain recent orders are 'founded respelling the
proof of the pedigree of Peers, &c. be taken into
consideration on Thursday next, ioT the purpose, as
we understood his Lordship, for discussing
.the pro.
priety o£
-annulling the same.
This proposition gave- ritie., to a conversation,
Chiefly of an explanatory nature, and referring to
questions of form, between the Noble Lord and the
Duke of NoR row: ; and after a few words trove
r—irt of .I)4kR,N4,EY, who seemed to suggest the
propriety of the House coming to some declaration
with, regard to what had taken place respecting the
earl of BERKELEY'S pedigree—the question was
put on Lord iltußt.ow's Motion, which was or-
dered accordingly. •
The Scotch Militia Bill was brought up from the
Commons by Lord- GLENBERVIE, as was the
Southern Whale Fishery Bill by Mr. ALEXANDER,
arid a few private 131,1 s were brought up by Mr.
C. DUNDAs and other Gentlemen—These were seve-
rally read a first time.

Lord/PELHAM presented certain Papers, which,
as we could Coiled, related to Pensions granted on
the Civil List, &c:

The Earl 6j. SUFFOLK ca led the attention of
4b.;, ‘crtdiri C;reti 11Stilt1.2.CS,
appealed from Papers recency laid- before the
House, respelling Grants, &C.-ttom the proceeds
of. the Old Naval Stores. He particularly noticed
an addition, which was stated to have been made
therefrom, of zoooh. to the present Salary of the
First Lord of the Admiralty—a considerable addi-
tion to that of the Treasurer of the Navy—and also,
an addition to the stipend of the Judge of the Ad-
miralty Court. He thought these statements re--
quirtAl explanation from Ministers ; aol he wish-
ed to know, whether these Sums were in addi-
tion to those which were set forth in what
was called the Red rook, as the Salaries of those
Officers? Nor was that all—the total amount of
the Grants, &c. which appeared in the Accounts
presented, did not appear to him; on Casting
his eye over the sums, much
,to excreo
Now the amount of the whole proceeds of the sales
of the Old Naval Stores being, as he conceived,
considerably greater than that sum, he wished to
know how the remainder was appropriated.. .He
therefore in..:.-nded to submit to the House a Mo_
don, for the purpose of learning the application of
the v. hole Proceeds.

A short explanatory, conversation ensued between
the Noble Earl and Lords PELHAM and AUCKLAND,
upon those points, in the course .of which the first
mentioned Peer stated, that for many years since the
Office of Lord High Admiral was put into Corn.
mission,: the addition in question was regularly
mit.e to his salaty ; and Lord AUCKLAND explained
to the Noble Earl, that an account of the Net Pro_
seeds on the Sale of old Naval Stores was regu-
larly laid before the House of Commons, and was
duly appropriated as part of the Ways and Means
of such year. This was generally known, the sub-
jeCt was fully discussed-in the Commons in the year
1783, and the arrangements respetting Odin were
agreed to without a dissentient voice. Previous "to
the War, his Lordship stated, that fora certain
number of years the average amount of 'those Pro-
ceeds were about 20,0001. per annum, and during
the War, as we understoOd him, about 80,0001.
The Noble Lord seemed to entertain no objection
to the Motion hinted by the Noble Earl.

Lord SUFFOLK then moved an Address to His.
Majzsly, praying that there be laid before the
House an account of the amount of the Sums arising
from tie Sale of Old Naval Stores for one year end_
ing January I, 1802 ; which, op the•question being
put, was ordered accordingly.
The Order of the Day was-then read for the fur-
ther:consideration of the Report of the Militia Aug_
'mutation

The Report was accordingly taken into eonsi_
deration, when the original Amendments made by
theclonnnittee, and sonic ,additional ones prOposed
by Lord fddrtAkT, gave rise to a very long and de-
sultory conversation between the Earls of CARNAk-
VON, ROMNEY,- arkd.
.FITZWILLIAM, the LORD
CHANCELLOR, and Lords HoBART and PELHAM,
the I,hree first mentioned i'zers strongly expressing
their diSapprobation,.and the Ministerial Lords ably
defending Sent. _A division eniued relative to one cif
the addiConal Amendments, which was carried 13 to
6. The Report being gat throJgh, and the various

Amendments sannioned by the house, the till was
ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday next.
Some private business was then disposed of, and at
eight o'clock their Lordships adjourned (on account
,ot the intervention of the Whitsun holidays) till
Wedneday next. _ -

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
THURSDAY, JUNE 3.
Mr. CORRY said, that on the Union of Ireland
with Great Britain, it had been determined to make
compensation to the Officers under the former Irish
Establishment, for any diminution of emoluments
which they might undergo in consequence of the
Union. The Chancellor was-one of those who had
suffered:a most material diminution ; a Compensa-
tion had, in consequence been granted to the late
Chancellor for life ; but as this compensation did
not continue after his death, the present Chancellor
held that office under the same diminution as before
that. compensation was granted. It was. necessary
to give a proper' remuneration to men'of talents
who executed the duties of. that high office, and
surely no one could be, accounted more,worthy of the
liberality of his country, than the present eminent
character who held it. In order, therefore, to shew
what•the emoluments of the Chancellor of Ireland
actually were, and what they ought to be; he moved
" That an Account be laid before the House‘of the
gross and net emoluments of the Chancellor of Ire-
land."
Mr. M: A. TAYLc4 and Mr. STEWART CX.
pressed their satisfathon that such a measure was
brought forward,. and bore testimony to the talents
and integrity of the present Chancellor of Ireland.
The Yeomanry Bill, and the Miners' Bill were
put off to Wednesday.
Leave was given, on Sir HENRY MILDMAY'S
'Motion, to bring in .a Bill to amend the Black
Game Ad.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee
on the Bill fur taking off the duty of 6 per Cent.
from Irish Retailers.
Mr. CORRY said, that in order to explain the
'subject completely to the Committee, it would he
necessary for him to take a short view of the, origin
and progress of this Duty of 6 per Cent. on tae,
.toilers. In the reign of Charles 11. a Duty of 5
per Cent. war laid upon all gotids imported info
Ireland. The excise was all Owed to be paid on
transferring the goods to the Retailer and ConsUmer,
instead of levying it immediately on Importation.
At a considerable interval afterwards, these exemp-
tions and advantages were taken away, and in lieu
of them, the Wholesale Dealers were allowed a dis-
count of 6 per Cent. on immediate payment of -the
Duties. Affairs remained in this state till the year
1782, when this Disc aunt was entirely discontinued,
and the Wholesale Merchants, as well as ,the Re-
tailers, stood in the same situation as under the
original Ad ; but, at the same time, the disparity
between them was Continued, by a new imposition
of 6 per Cent. on the Retailers. This was Laying
an unequal and a Very 'heavy burden on that body of
men ; but in reality, 6 per Cent. was not the whole
of their burden ; for adding the Ifriportatidn Duty
to it, they, in fact, paid 11 per Cent. on their
goods. Such a heavy taxation, certainly called for
relief. A Petition lay before the Committee to
this effect, fr9m the Irish Retailers : They under_
stood' that no unequal Duty was paid by the Eng,ish
Retailers ; they, therefore, petitioned that Partici_
ment would assimilate them to the English Re-
tailers, apcording to the spirit'of the Union. The
Duty besides. was not produdive, and taking it off
would be a very small diminution of the Revenue.
He was convinced of .the propriety and justice of
hearkening toahis Petition ; and, therefOre, he con-
cluded with 'moving, " That leave be given to
bring in a B?il to relieve the Irish Retailers from
the Duty Of 6 per Cent." •
. Mr. BERESFORD said he could by no means
agree with the ideas of the Right Hon. Gentleman
an this subject.. The allegations in the Petition
he looked upon as by no means correct. They
scented to give a recent origin to a duty that arose
from the nature of the Excise Ad passed in the
reign of Charles 11. The wholesale Merchants
were allowed originally to bond their goods. This
privilege they exchanged in 1679 for 6 per Cent.
discount on prompt payment of the duties. This
regulation continued till 1785. It was impossible
to allow the Retailers to bond their goods, and iliere-
fore they had never had this privilege,. or any com-
pensation for it, and consequently the difference
between theM and the wholesale Merchants had
continued for a space of 123 years. Another alle-
gation was, that no such difference existed in Eng-
land. But this arose from there having been no
Import Duty there ; otherwise such a difference
would have been a necessary consequence. The
6 per -Cent. imposed in 1785, only. placed the
wholesale and retail. Dealers on the same relative
situation as they were before that period. An
alteration in this relative situation would require
also an alteration in the other mercantile). Laws.—
It had been urged, that it was intended to place
the Retailers on a footing of equably with the other
Dealers. He did not like the term Equality ; he
was not for altering old laws, and introducing inn°.
rations in order to favour that system. And as
the wholesale Dealers laid out a much greater capi,
IA; and their returns were slower, he thought it
'Ras just than they should have superior advantages
id the Retailers.
Mr. ORMSBY thought the Retailers entitled to
Relief.
General GASCOYNE gave the measure his cor-
dial support, and expressed his satisfaction that the
principle of assimilation between the two Countries
was carrying into, ell t.
Mr. CORRY did, not wish himself to be consi.
dered as pledging himself to the principle of assi-
milation, except where it could be acted upon
with fairness to boil Countries. The• present
question had
,no conneaion with the relative situa-
tion of the two Countries in respea to each other ;
it turned entirely 'upon the internal policy of Ire-
land, and in this re'speCii alone he .wished to be un--
, derstoodas at present claiming its assimilation with
England.
Mr. FOSTER contended, that the relief at 'pre..
sent moved for was. unnecessary. The 6 per Cent.
. imposed in 1785, was never complained of 'till the ,

Retailers were, four or .qv, t';.; ri ago, .brotlght
torward, and shoved how to torm complaints.—
'When it was considered that the Revenue of Ireland
last year scarcely amounted to 4°0,0061. above the ,
interest' of its ,Debt, we ought to be
.very careful in
taking oil" the smallest TaX, unless a better t>ubsti-
tute for* could be first provided. But no better
could be found than a Tax sandioned by, time, sub-
-mittM to without cOmplaint, and no-WiSe—Veratiotii-
in.its operation.
The House then divided on Mr: Cotuves
tion.7—Ayes 33---Noes ;8--Nlajority

The consideration of the Chancellor of Ireland's
Income was referred to the Committee of Supply on
Wednesday next. • -
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved,
that the House on rising TO-day, do-adjourn. to. Wed,
nesday nexr ; .but that all ComMirtees, notwith-
standing, have leave to sit in the.mean time.—Or-
dered. , ,

General G ASCOY NE, on account of the' late-
ness of the Session, withdrew his 'motion relative
to the Slave Trade, and hoped the Hon. Gentle-
man, who had given notice.'of a 'motion on the
same subjet, wouh also withdraw his.
Mr. WILBERFORCE said, he .could not do so
without, further explanation, which he 'was pro-
ceeding to give, when lie was interrupted by •
The SPEAKER, who pbserved, that other busi-
ness stood for the day, of so important a nature,
that he trusted the House would consider all other
motions and orders as subordinate to it. +

e SINKING FUND.
The. Howe having resokied into a*Ccirtimittee.on
the Sinking Fund, - . •
The' CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER
said, that after the full exiitamition which had for ,
merty been given of the intended alteration in the
Sinking Fund, he should, at present, -i1 no opposi_
tiorroccurred, mjelyprocced to fill' up the blanks.

Mr. BILVKES said, that some confusion had
arisen in' the public mind with regard to the opera-
tions of the eltisting Sinking Fund, and that now
proposed. The. truth was, that no difference ex_
isted in their ultimate operation ; and that no a&
vantage arose to the Public from the proposed al.
tetation, except the One per cent. on -the last lban._
But. the .disadvantages of this proposed plan, he
contended, were much' greater than the Public had
any idea of. Till 1868
_it *as allowed the advan.
tages'of the two plans bore no comparison, and the
period of their disparity would, on trial; he doul#ted,
be found greatly to exceed the calculation. The
new plan was of the niture of a Bonus ; it relieved
ourselves from the necessity' of providing for the
one per cent. on the last loan, and left pOsterity to
look to themselVes. He contended that taking
stocks at par, no advantage could he derived from the
new plan in less than 38 years : taking them.= c,
no advantage could be derived from it in less than
z 8 years. Until the arrival of these periods; its
advantages would be less -than those of the plan of
1792. Would ,rot these advantages, put oft to a distant
reriod, whet) coupled with immediate disadvantages,
have the effect of exciting the suspicions of the ino:.
nied men ? He said, that any alleviation of Taxes
which took place were small in reality, yet its
principle and effeel were of the first importance, and
by the old Sinking Fund, his alleviation would have
commenced in six years hence. Such an immediate,
operation would be felt and acknowledgcd by every
one ; whereas people were little affe4ed by calcu-
lations of distant advantages *Melt they did not un-
derstand. If our debt be of such magnitude as'
to require the. most nowerfOl means to subdue it,
the most proper method surely would be to com-
bine the operations of the old and., new plans,
and thus form a machine of infinite force and effi-
cacy. The redulion of interest by the continual
liurchases of the former plan, he always looked
upon as a great objea ; but the new plan, instead of
lessening the interest, for many, years had the con,
tiny effdl, by leaving a great quantity of Stock in
the. Market, and of course reducing its value.—
From all these considerations, he found himself
called-upon by his duty to oppose any deviation from
the plan of the Sinking Fund, sanctioned by Paella-
' ment in 1792. •

The CHANCELL.OR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that whatever might be the difference of opinion
between his Hon. Friend and hirmef, on the sub-
jeet now before the Committee, there certainly was
none in the House, with resped to the' motive of
iris Hon. Friend; and whatever variety of Opinion
might be entertained in the Committee on the sub-
jed itself, he was sure there was no diFerence of
opinion on the point of bringing it fairly before the
House ; there certainly had been no attempt at any
deception whatever, no endeavour had been made to
draw a veil over the matter ; but on the contrary,'
every endeavour had been used to lay it before
Parliament as clearly and distindly aor possible';

that the real nature and all the circumstances 61 the
Case might be made manifest.—lndeed, he believed,
there never was a Case in which more pains were
taken to cast light upon, The suhjea to be diScussed
than the present, the very wishes of Gentlemen for
intnemation on it had been anticipated in every
way they could do, and that with as much dispatch
as the intricacy, and importance of the sabie&

woold admit ; he trusted, 'therefore, that those who
brought forward this Measure, would now at least
stand well with the House itsc:f, and that they
would'be entitled to the credit of having pUrsued a
course direaly opposite to that of deceptioni in
laying .thisobusiness before the House.—His Hon„
Friend had given a description of this Measure,
which he *should be sorry' it deserved, that of being
_ _

a Temporary Measure ;.whether that charaCtermas
appropriate to it, was fir the COmmittee to deter.
mine ; he would say with confidence, that whatever'
might be thought of• His Majesty's present Servants,
the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was the author of
(be great Measure, the original plan' on which
zhe present Measure was .founded, (Mr. Pm)
was - not likely to agree . td a • Measure that was
teMporary in such, case as this ;.- .Was no
friend to any temporizing System bf Policy;;-•t-.11
his
,plans were broad and permanent, 'he was
convinced, that if this System_ had been 'of a
temporizing nature, that Right Hnnour.ifble Gemle-
man would have been the first, to have. lifted u Isis.
voice.against it ;, instead of y,,Taich he had already
declared be did net consider it as inconsisttnt in

any degree with his orrg.,4lal sr stem ; 11,ad:linf
any degree deserved the •iniptitation cast Opoi",,f,
it tended to sveakei, the system of that Rig
Gentletuan for the liquidation of the National Dceu,_
Or had a bearing against that plan on which his fait
fame was io founded, and an inviolablead,
herence to which had so justly contributed to swell
.!:
to its present magnitude) he would have
'the measure ; he -would have collet}
Upon the House, with the affedion •of a parent? its
prole& his child, when he saw that rat (4Y -11,tt
health, but even•its existence was danger
that Right Honciurablc Gentlemate bad al() btlC4-1 Jr
prehension ; on the contrary, he saw, .and he had !g*,
pressed it, than the present Measure was perfe".
consonant ,Co the spirit of his system for the ted:
dudion .of the National bebt - 'His Hon. Flien
who had spoken hat, , had said, .that 'the wh°le.
1
the advantage' of the present measure arose fr"s
the relief which-it would afford to the Public, 14
saving the imposition of taxes in the present Y", rfc
to the amount of 88o,000). - He did not think:
Hon., Friend had examined the plan with ins tistad
act.uracy, for if he had, 'he- vipOuld-not have stated
that as the only advantage of this measuret !
was the •efletl•of the plane as appeared Irotri.Pal'er9.
laid before the House ? _That in. a year when taxi
to a larger amount -than were ever before, iirrsea
l
in one Session of Parliament, permanent taxes Ilea
upon; the people,' 'there .was a disposition 0." ta'.
pan of the Rxectitive otivernthent to recommend -
measure, the effed of which was to avoid Jn tof
mediate burthen upon the. people to the 2010130;
near 999,p001ais anti yet,.itathe same tittle, e ?fl
much accelerating the redutaion of the .Nati°°o
Debt ; and also to leave Parliament at lihertYo
the year 1.808, to apply 5 I z,0001., the:amouoC
the Short Annuities that would then fall ills
was alsO 'stated, that an additional • con;equevce:°
that plan would bee to leave at the. disposal Of Piirt.
lianient, in the event of paying off the 5 Per "nee
between 1,400,0001. and 1,500,0001. for the fie
dudion of • the Pubhe Debt,' or to relieve the Pe°P •
from taxes to that mount. Upon this point P'll.;
'ticular stresslia-d•bien laid; and if at this period se
should be the • disposition of Parliament to relieliv,
the people from thebin-then of taxes, they might "01
the 512,0031. Short Annuities, and the t, coot°,°°
there Would then he 'a relief to the peoP'f,,,-5 .
3,ooo,oool„and,the relief of 900,0001. was, besr;
imniediate. But it was not for him to presume 11°.,
Parliam-ent woul,l aa in the 'exercise of its discrtee
tion in the year 1. SoB.--But such would be the °lel
of things when the five and four per Cents were Pay,
off, -a-petiod which 'could not be a;nticipated
fla
precision ; but was reasonable to state it t be
period.—Such were the recommendations of list
Measure now before the Committee; but was
the whole no such thing.--s His Hon. Friend 'of
said, that. the term- Consolidation was a ten
decePliQu4n 'this case, which was certainly 001 o
of
The difference between -the present plan and 'h3r,.,,J
the Sinking Fund established in the year 1786'111a,
which was called the old Sinking Fund svas'-'lO
that in' the year BoB,' when it discretion was E4)re
afforded to Parliament with respell: to the rilet-ro,
oft-Wosing of what was in the hands of the A'''.'off
missioner 9 for the seiief of the People in raiOnglite
Taxes, it was proposed, instead of arresting -
progress of this Fund, it was to go on until
• cO.-'
prOdudive powers of Compound Interest, esti
junctionwith the other Fund, it had 'Orin; ,
the discharge of the whole Debt ; instead of re:ltclic
at a 808, it was to continue its opera:lOn antPce
whole Debt was discharged.—Whas %cal the
tern of 1792 ? By that measure it was provo,lo
-that one per Cent. should be raised of every 1-1 to
that should thereafter be made, in propOrtlyiltot
the sum borrowed, arid which seas to opetateed
the Debt which it was calculated to redeem t
be discharged; and the- surplus to be at theos'
posal of Parliament.—The alteration now PrOi of
Was, that instead of this-being at the disi°3alla
Parliament, it be added to the Sinking Fan'tit
• both to go on until the whole Debt was recce' ,lei
The-se were the alterations, and it appeared u-'Ol,l
,the present plan. It appeared under 01
plan,. supposing the 3 per Cents at par, all' tin_
4. and 5 paid off, the old debt would be lost
guished in forty-four years and four mooch' „e,
February last.—Supposing the 3 per Cents a`est;
the whole Debt would be paid off in 32 )1-1;
and 'to months ; that under the operation "` dot
System of 1792, the Debts incurred since per
time would be discharged, supposing the 3sois,
Cents at par, in 45 years anti 7 months: the
posing the 3 per Cents at 75, the whole of and
pew Debt would be discharged in 35 YCarssioy(
, three months. By the Consolidated Syster°,titas
proposed,. the whole of that Debt would be C-,cars
gqished in 31 years, that was to say, in four Yeree
less time than by the plan of 1792, and it," ti7s6
years -less than the 'operation of the plan 0' per
would effectuate its purpose.—Supposing the r lan
Cents at 75, the .effed of this cOnsolidate( Ptie;
would be to extinguishthe Whole of the el‘ls to
Pebt'in.33 years and seven months, that tv")0 of
say, the Debt existing previous to the 11'1e for
1786. - The period allowed by the Ad of 79 "arytip
extinguishing the. Debt since, was +5 years ; he'ol,
if Gentlemen would, look at the papers before
d` pair'
they would find the died Of the consolidate not
would be, supposing the .3. per Cents at P"ri,so to
only to extinguish` near 498,000,0001. but shoo)'
provide for the eXtinai.on 'of _;uear 40,000'
rnbre ; .and, supposing the '3 per Cents 'at 75'011Y
cif:a of- the consolidated plan would be, n' ,tiro
to pay off the Whole of the present Debt, 101.-*"
to afford the means of paying off 'l+o°°',(.) 01°'
Now he would ask the Committee, a,Thett,'aeslia'c
sure, the '6l-ed of which was, to aft-td 1
Efre-
relief to the amount of 900,0031. an`i t° f(lof t"
lief, if Parliament should l'iuSe
,to ziVAI irsoeolo).ana
,oppOrtunity in 1808, of briogin& sq' ytate
the t,jooaesoolLin the manner-lie hatialrea4l
eat re,'
to the relief of the Public in Taszes, wit lus6 or
tattling the progress of the System of
thine
wass
79 ? -He would ask, he said, whether . frail'
.14;in which could be, considered as a
the System .of 1786 or that of 4797- ? What ff file •
,•ns,
be the effed of the AF} of 0786, in flan.bYll'' S 6)
`faxes ? Aecording to the mode stated • f/7
AR °
'Friend,, the -earliest Period under the
an
`refs to
which It
iat lt would be poS'sible to apply
'The money ,in the hands of the ComMis°
dertali would