The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-08 00:00:00

COURT OF COMMON COUNCIL.

A Court of Common Council was held yesterday, which
was very fully attended.
Immediately upon forming the Court, Mr. Dixon offered
some observations respecting the propriety of the Court
taking some notice to express their opinion of the length
of the services rendered to the Corporation by the late
Mr: Alderman Waithman ; upon which a Committee of
two Aldermen and five Commoners, was appointed to
withdraw immediately, and consider the proper course to
be adored.

The Remembrancer reported to the Court that Lord
Altborp had given notice of a motion i❑ the House of Corm
mons for a Bill respecting Corporations generally.
The Committee appointed to withdraw and consider
the course to be adopted towards expressing the feeling of
the Court, of the manner in which the late Alderman
Waitbman had performed his duties as a Member of the
Court of Common Council, Alderman, Sheriff, Lord
Mayor, and Representative of the City, being returned,
Mr. Alderman WOOD submitted a resolution which
they bad prepared accordingly, which was agreed to mut-
oimously, and ordered to be advertised.

A copy was also directed to be sent to the family of the
late Alderman, under the orders of the Committee, who
were also instructed to ascertain whether it would be
grateful to their feelings that such Members of the Court
as may be de..irous of availing themselves of the opportu-
nity, should testify their respect to the memory of the de-
ceased by attending his funeral.l

RYE, FEB. 4.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.

public meeting was this day held by the inha-
bitants of this town, at the Guildhall, by order of 'W.
Pliamb, , Mayor, pursuant to a requisition, for the
purpose of petitioning Parliament for the immediate aboli-
tion of Negro Slavery in the British Colonies.
Resolutions to that effect were unanimously agreed ,to, and
a Committee was appointed to prepare a petition in ac-
cordance with them. This meeting owed its origin to the
Dissenters of Rye, but we were much gratified to witness
the attendance of Ministers from the Established Church.

It is not the intention of the Reformers of Rye to em-
barrass a Reforming Ministry, by petitions to the Legisla-
ture in furtherance of non-essential measures of Reform,
and as they would not willingly doubt their sincerity, and
are desirous of giving them every support to render the
Reform Bill effective, the political association of this town
have thought proper, at their monthly meeting, held a few
days since, to prepare petitions in support of the ballot,
and the repeal of the Septennial Act.
Your obedient servant,
A REFORMER.

ANTI-TITHE MEETING AT PEVENSEY.

(Abridged from the Brighton Guardian.)

The first anti-tithe meeting in the county of Sussex was
held on Friday last, at the village of Pevensey, near 8ex-
....

hill. About 12 o'clock, between 40 and 50 owners and
occnpiers of land in the parish of Pevensey met at the New
Inn, for the purpose of petitioning both Houses of Par-
liament on the subject of tithes.
JoirN WHITEMAN, EN., the Mayor of Pevensey, hav-
ing been called to the chair, expressed his willingness:to
assist the meeting in its object.
Mr. BAKER having announced that the object of the
meeting was to claim a redress of the difficulties under
which they laboured, in consequence of the present tithe
system,

Mr. SAXBY proposed the first resolution, expressive of
the opinion of the meeting of the oppressive, injurious, and
unjust nature of tithes, as a tax both upon industry and
capital, which, being seconded by Mr. HAUT, was unani-
mously carried.

Mr: JOIIN HOLLAND, the overseer of the parish, in pro-
posing a resolution expressive of the opinion of the meeting
that the clergy ought to be compelled to reside in their
respective parishes, stated that the Vicar who drew 1,2001.
per annum from the parish, had, he believed, performed
divine service in the parish church once, and that 17 years
ago, when he first took possession of the living.—(Hear.)
Mr. SAMPSON proposed, as the fourth resolution—
" That this meeting considers the English tithe system to
he quite as oppressive and unjust, and to call as impe-
riously for redress as the Irish ; and that should any mea-
sure of relief be granted to Ireland without an equally
comprehensive one being extended to this country, it will
cause general dissatisfaction and distrust, and lead to re-
sults which this meeting fears to contemplate."
This being seconded, was carried nem con.
Dr. THOMAS BRETTON, in moving the next resolution,
entered into a general history of the tithe system—l as-
sure you, Gentlemen, if you persevere, you must succeed.
There never was a great public question taken up by the
people which did not succeed.—(Hear.) 1C312 remember
the abolition of the slave trade, Catholic em incipation,
and the passing of the Reform Bill.—(Applause.) Now
who was it carried that ? Why the people. Vox Populi
Vox Dei. I am happy, Gentlemen, to say that I live
in a country where moral force is superior to physical.
We are not about to have a contest of physical strength ;
another charts from oppressors by force of arms—not
to have another Runnymede, to gain
al.eouatretonsaoctrgifioicneglo,ooo men—but by moral arguments
and the force of reason, to knock down this immutable
barrier. We are about to tell the King, through his Mi-
nisters, that we consider this tithe system bad ; if, there-
fore, every man in this room feels convinced that such is
the fact, let him put his name to this petition, let opinion
run like wildfire, let petitions pour in from every town,
village, and hamlet in the country, and let the Legisla-
ture know that this horrible tithe system is what you abhor.
(Great applause.)
A petition in conformity with the resolutions having
been agreed to, thanks were voted to the Mayor, who re-
turned the due acknowledgment.
The meeting then broke up ; some returned to their
homes immediately, and others stayed to partake of " roast
beef and plum pudding" at the New Inn.

(PRICE ?D.)

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBIRU4AY 7.

The SPEAKER took his seat shortly before four o'clock
FEES OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. DIVETT put a question to the Speaker relative
to certain fees (as we und. rstood) to the Clerks of the
House; but from the low tone in which he spoke, our
reporter could not hear the question distinctly.
The SPEAKER said, any answer which he ~:ould give
to such a question would have been far more valuable and
more safe if the Hon. Member had called his attention to
the subject first out of the chair, when he could ascertain the
length of time such fees had been ,demanded, by what right
they were justified, and whether they had been legally de
manded or had crept in by abuse or ancient usage. He
would take care that no fees should be demanded, unles.
they were justified, and be would undertake to make an
inquiry into them.—(Hear.) It was not only his duty
but his honest inclination to give the House, particularly
new Members, every information—(Hear, hear)—but
that information might be imperfect or erroneous, if gen-
tlemen did not come to him before the night, not for any
purpose of his own but for their satisfaction.—( Hear. )
Mr. DIVETT expressed himself satisfied with what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman.
REPRESENTATION OF THE CITY OF LONDON.
On the motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, a new writ
was ordered for the election of a Member for the City of
London, in the room of Alderman Wait/It:Han, deceased.
Mr. GORING (as we believe) begged to ask the Noble
Lord (Altborp) if it was his intention to bring forward
any measure to alter and amend the provisions of the
Beer Bill.
The SPEAKER interrupted the Hon. Member by
saying that it was not usual to ask a question upon a
public matter during the proceedings on private business.
Mr. HODGSON obtained leave to bring in a Bill to

enable the Clarence Railway Company, in the County of
Durham, to make branch railways.
Mr. MANGLES presented a petition from Guildford,
praying for a better observance of the Lord's Day.
Mr. JERVIS gave notice that, on the 14th inst., he
would move fur leave to bring in a Bill for regulating the
amount of fines payable by persons becoming freemen of
cities and boroughs by birth, servitude, and marri.ge ;
and that to-morrow he would move fur certain returns
connected with corporations in England
Mr. Sergeant SPANKIE presented a petition from
Clerkenwell, for the repeal of the house and window tax.
Mr. R. STUART wished to ask a question of the
Noble Lord (Althorp), which was of considerable im-
portance, not merely to his own constituents, but to Scot-
land generally. He put it in consequence of the Noble
Lord having stated it to be his intention to amend and
alter the laws relating to existing Corporations in England.
He wished to knaw whether it was the intention of his
Majesty's Government to submit to the House any mea-
sure to alter and amend the existing laws relating to Cor-
porations, and to the present mode of electing Magistrates
of boroughs in Scotland.
Lord ALTHORP begged to observe that he had not
said he intended to bring in a Bill to alter existing Cor-
porations in England, but that he intended only to move
for a Special Committee to inquire into them. With
regard to Scotland, he could state that a Bill was in pre-
paration for a reform of the Scotch burghs—(Hear, bear)
—and that notice of it would have been given had hit Hon.
and Learned Friend the Laid Advocate been in his place.
In answer to a question from an How. MEMBER,
Lord ALTHORP said the Government would have
no objection to the appointment of a Committee of In-
quiry into the state of the Corporations of Ireland.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said, as the Noble Lord had
given notice that it was the intention of Govern-

ment to introduce a measure for Reform in the Church,
he wished now to ask whether it was the intention of the
Noble Lord to furnish any materials to the House by
which the Members might be prepared to come to a
proper conclusion on the subject.
Lord ALTHORP ■aid he had no information to lay
before the House at present. He considered it his duty
to give all the information in hie power ; but he thought
it would be better that it should be given when leave
was moved for to bring in the Bill.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he had a motion on the
paper respecting the Corporations of Ireland, which he
was willing to give up if the subject was taken up by his
Majesty's Government.
Lord ALTHORP said they would have no objection,
in fact he was anxious that a Committee should be ap-
pointed.

Mr. HILL presented a petition, signed by 7,600 persons,
inhabitants of Hull, praying for a Reform in the
Corporation of that town. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman said, to show the necessity for
the interference of that House, it was only necessary for
him to state, that for the last two hundred years the
Court of King's Bench had been strenuously endea-
vouring to uphold the close system, and give all pro-
tection to the self-elected Magistrates, and, of course,
do away with the undoubted rights of the people.
If the business of England were at all to be attended to
during the present Session, he was satisfied that the time
of the House could not be better employed than in ex-
tending the principles of the Reform Act to all the corpo-
rations of England.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. STiticiLawn and another How. MEMBER supported
the prayer of the petition, and expressed their hope that
the Committee promised by the Noble Lord upon the
subject of Corporations would point out some remedy for
the abuses which had grown up, as stated in the petition.—
Laid upon the table.

Mr. FREDERICK NORTH presented a petition from
the Corporation of Hastings against the Sale of Beer Act.
An Hox. 111101 BER asked whether it was the intention
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring in any measure
to amend that Act ?

Lord ALTHORP said that he had no intention of the
kind, but that if any Hon. Member thought fit to move
for a Committee of Inquiry into the working of that Act,
Le saw no objection to it.—(Hear, hear.) The petition
was then laid on the table.

Mr. BOTCH presented a petition from Knaresborough,
in favour of the repeal of the house and window taxes.
Mr. C. MARJORIBANKS presented a petition from
Linthorn, in favour of the better observance of the
Sabbath.—Both of the above laid upon the table.
Mr. WILKS presented a petition from the Committee
of the Protestant Society for the Protection of Religious
Liberty, in favour of the complete emancipation of the Jews.
He had no doubt that this was but the first of many petitions
which would be presented upon the subject, and he trusted
that their prayer would be complied with. By the repeal
of the Test and Corporation Act, the Jews were now ex
posed to particular hardships, for they were unable, if they
were enforced against them, to resist the penalties from
which they used formerly to be cleared in common with
other Dissenters by the annual bill of indemnity.
The petition having been laid upon the table,
Mr. WILKS moved that it be printed.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS objected to the presenting of
the petition on the ground that it purported to come front
a Committee, and not from a public body ; and also be-
cause it would occasion discussion, which would be in-
consistent with the arrangement entered into last night on
the subject of printing petitions.
Mr. O'CONNELL attached great weight and impor-
tance to the petition. It came from a Protestant Society
having for its object the protection of religious liberty. He
represented a constituency of a different persuasion. But
he and his constituents were equally anxious for the est I-
blishment of perfect freedom of conscience, and on the
most extensive score of religious liberty. He would,
however, recommend to the Hon. Member (Mr. Willis),
rather than provoke discussion on its printing, to with-
draw the petition for a few days.

Mr. WILKS objected to any iiezirttion of the pri.
vileges of Members on the subject of printing petitions. He
thought any attempt to preclude the printing of petitions,
recommended either by the body from whence thew caiue,
or by the magnitude of the subject to which they
referred, interfered not only with the rights of the House,
but of the general constituency. Rather, however, than
occupy, at present, the attention of the House, he would
adopt the suggestion of the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin, and withdraw the petition for a few
days. The Honourable Member gave notice of his
intention to move, on the sth of March, for
a Select Committee, to consider the general state of
parochial registries in England and Wales, and of the
laws relating thereto; and for certain accounts of births,
marriages, and deaths. On March 12, he should move for
leave to bring in a Rill to exempt from poor rate. all

•
•
. _
ell arches, el,ftele, and other place. ereltuirely appropriattfi
to religion.
Mr. FINCH wished to ask a question of the Noble
Lord opposite—whether or not his Majesty's Government
intended to bring forward any measure for the ifisteissirizi
of Political Unions.
Lord ALTHORP said it was not his intention to bring
forward any such measure.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. GROTE moved for certain returns of silk im •
ported from January, 1832, to January, 1833.
Lord ALTHORP did not object to the returns.
Mr. MACKENZIE presented a petition from the
parish of Kilceugb, in the county of Perth, relative to
the better observance of the Sabbath.
The SPEAKER intimated that the present was the
time to receive all election petitions. The Right Hon.
Gentleman read the usual order applicable to the mode of
receiving those petitions. After which,
The CMIEV CLERK called out the name of each peti-
tion ; those against the returns for the borough of
Petersfield, the city of Oxford, the borough of Coleraine,
the borough of Stafford, and the city of Bath, were
ordered to he taken into consideration on Tuesday fort.
night ; those against the returns for the boroughs of
Tiverton and Carn arvon were ordered to be considered
on Thursday fortnight.
IRISH VAGRANTS.
Mr. PALMER begged to put a question to the
Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lamb)
which was of great importance to the county which
he represented (Berks), and to many others. Tne
Right Honourable Gentleman would recollect that
about twelve months ago a memorial had been presented
from that county, as to the settlement of the Irish va-
grants, and he (Mr. Palmer) wished to know if any steps
had been taken to alter the law, and thereby relieve the
counties from such a heavy burden.
Mr. LAMB had no hesitation in informing the
House, that that one memorial, and others upon the same
subject, had been under the consideration of Governimnt,
who thought the best way was to instruct the Commis-
sioners who were now inquiring into the poor laws, to
extend their inquiries upon that subject. That was the
state in which the. case was at present, the Commissioners
not having yet made their report.
Mr. PALMER was glad to find the memorial was in
the hands of the Commissioners, and was satisfied to take
no step upon the subject, until they should make their
report.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that, in consequence of the im-
portance of the adjourned debate on the address, and the
necessity of getting it finished, he would, with the per-
mission of the House, postpone his motion for leave to
bring in a Bill to abolish the Vestry Cess in Ireland, ti.l
Tuesday, the 19th inst.
Lord ALTHORP was of opinion that it would be better
at once to go on with the adjourned debate, and postpone
the sessional orders which stood for to-night till Mo.olay
next, he thought it would be more convenient and hoped
it would meet with the approbation of the 'Joust...—
Agreed to.
RESUMED DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS.
The NOBLE LORD then moved the order of the day for
resuming the adjourned debate on the address, which was
read, and
Mr. HUME, in rising to recommence the adjourned de-
bate said, I will beg at the outset to recall the attention of
the House to the real question before it. Although I
think the great length of time which has been bestowed on
the question ought in part to have been otherwise occupied,
I must say that I do not think it is the fault of the Hon.
Member for Dublin or the other Irish Members woo have
spoken, that the debate has taken the turn it has ; for a
more pointed attack I never heard than was ma ie
upon them. Whilst the mover of the address attacked
Hon. Members on this side of the House for their con-
duct, not here but elsewhere, they did not utter a word
about England or Scotland, but spoke as if no such
countries existed.—(Hear.) I will state my view of
what I conceive to be the duties imposed upon
us. More is expected from this Parliament than from
any other that has ever been assembled. But it strangely
happens that there has hardly been a speech from the
throne which has paid less attention to the questions which
now interest the body of the community. I was in
hopes that a Reformed Parliament would have had
addressed to it something clearer in the shape
of the King's speech than has heretofore been the
practice, and that it would at least have contained an out-
line or intimation of what the Government intended to do.
Now if we may take the speech as indicative of the inten-
tion of the Government, we must conclude that nothing
is to be done this session for England except with regard
to the Bank Charter, the East India Charter, and the
reform of the Church.—(A laugh.) If 1 look to the
speech of last year, I find that more attention was paid
to the internal condition of the country, than is now
exhibited.—(Mr. Hume here read an extract from the
King's speech last year, respecting the necessity of alle-
viating the distresses of the country.) Now the question
I would put to his Majesty's Ministers is this—Whether
the country is now in a better condition than at the pe-
riod I refer to ? They certainly cannot consider it to be
in a prosperous condition, or they would have congratu-
lated us upon it in the usual way. The conclusion I draw
from their silence is, that they intend to do nothing to relieve
the distress felt by different interests in the country. 1
can assure them that they are misinformed, or mis-
judge the wishes of the people of England if they
suppose that because they have not petitioned,
they do not expect a large reduction of expenditure
and taxation, and also relief from an alteration in the
mode of levying its amount. Not a word is said
in his Majesty's speech, however, of the necessity of modi-
fying or reducing the taxes. We know, however, that
the middling classes, those who, as the phrase is, are
endeavouring to pay their way, it is who want relief.
Sir, when I think of the intentions of Government, as
far as I can collect them from their acts—when I consi-
der that, in answer to the question which I proposed,
whether they meant to abolish a military sinecure office,
they said " No," I am afraid the country will feel
sadly disappointed.—(Hear.) I wish most anxiously
to afford the Noble Lord opposite an opportunity of
stating explicitly before the conclusion of this debate what
their intentions are upon the subject of taxation—whether
they mean to propose any alleviation of the burdens of the
people, and whether they mean to put others in the place of
what it may be their intention to repeal. At present I so-
lemnly enter my protest on behalf of my constituents.
They expect, and the people of England I believe gene-
rally expect, that something decisive should have been
stated upon this subject, either in the speech from
the Throne, or in explanation by some Mem-
ber of his Majesty's Government. I say this
is the feeling of the country generally ; and although
nothing was stated by the mover of this address, respect-
ing Scotland or England, if I can judge from information
I have received, they expect relief, not merely by
the withdrawal of taxes, but by the disband-
ing of useless establishments, and the reduc-
tion of over-paid salaries. I think, Sir, therefore,
I sin warranted in saying that much disappointment
will be felt in every district of the country at the siletwo
which prevails in his Majesty's speech on the subs,
I am therefore anxious that his Majesty's Ministers, laefore
this debate is concluded, should take an opportunity of
stating whether they have any intention., and what,
as regards the reduction, change, or substitution of taxes.
The Hon. Member, I believe, for Worcester, has
given notice of a motion on the subject of a property
tax, but I do not think that the question of the reduction
or change of taxation should be left to any individual ;
it ought, indeed, to come before his Majesty's Ministers.
I cannot, therefore, but express my deep regret that all allu-
sion to so important a subject should have been altogether
omitted in his Majesty's speech. Sir, from the experi-
ence which I have had in these matters, I know, that
when things were prosperous—whenever there was
the least probability of relief, or of an intentioaa
to grant any relief, from the great burden of
taxation that pressed upon the people, an intimation to
that effect was to be found in the speech, and 1 take this
opportunity of saying, that I am now convinced more than
ever of the truth of the maxim laid down by the late
venerable, and, I hope, venerated man, Jeremy Ben,
thaw, that no Gevernment will ever yield one shil-
ling to the people, unless the people exert themselves,
and call on them until, in fact, the ruling few
are made a little uneasy in their situations, and
are obliged to yield. Sir, I will state candidly that when
applications have been made to the whether Parliament
should be petitioned on these subjects, my answer was
that, before the King's speech was delivered and the
explanation of Ministers received, it would not be
right to embarrass the Government. But if the Noble
Lord opposite thinks that because the people have been
quiescent, because they have not been clamorous for
relief, it is owing entirely to their indifference, he
will find he is much mistaken, and that their silence
only arose from the confidence in those Ministers who bad
done so much for Reform that they would be anxious to
follow up that great measure with °their.
Reform
for practical relief. Without these,
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frequent deputations
the metropolis, and throughout the country, relative to
those most partial, onerous, and unjust taxes—the house and
window taxes. Ido not object to the house tax because it

is a property tax, but I object to it became it is obnoxious
and unequal in its pressure. Ido consider it, indeed, if
after the earnest efforts of the people in the metropolis
and elsewhere, no relief is to be afforded, as amounting to a
reflection on this Reformed House. I shall not now enter
upon another tax, which is most injurious and unpopular,
I mean the tax on knowledge, further than to say that,
whilst we hear complaints of the misery, wretched-
ness, and crime, that exist in this country, I have no doubt
that in a great measure they are to be imputed to the
deplorable state of ignorance in which the people are
kept.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, when I look at this speech,
I find that the disturbances in. Portugal are placed
in the front. Why, I ask, should the people of England
he insulted by giving such prominence to the affairs of
Portugal while their own wants and requests are neglected ?
I had hoped it would he found they had been active; but
I would rather they had taken an open, an honest, and a
manly part with one side, than have acted at all in an un-
derhand manner. With regard to Portugal, I would sly,
let the people select their own form of Government, and
not let the ships of this country go and lie in their
ports, while England herself was far from being
interested. As regarded the question between Belgium
and Holland, I am one who, after the first protocol, en-
tered my decided protest against the interference ; and I
then received an assurance from the opposite Bench (the
Treasury Bench) that that interference should not lead to
ewe. I greatly fear that the part we have taken
sa ill make it difficult to get out of it in the most
licnourable way.—(Hear, hear.) I entreat Ministers to
place no confidence in military despots. It was thought
as there were united five, which were called the Great
Powers, we were sure of success, and I ventured an opi-
nion that, before the transaction was over, they would
make what use of us they could and then desert us. What
has been the consequence? Austria, Russia, and Prussia,
now when the question is about to be settled, after
two years of negotiation, declare off, and we have been at
an expense of maintaining a fleet amounting to 1,200,0001.
I put it to the House whether our own affairs are to be
neglected while we are interfering with the affairs of
other countries? For myself, without some docu-
ments, or some information more than I already
have, my opinion is much against the course that
has been pursued by Ministers. I am anxious
not to follow the steps of other Speakers, but to comment
on the course which the Government has pursued. With
regard to France, I am of opinion, that nothing is more
conducive to the peace of Europe than close alliance with
that country. It is the richest neighbour—the richest
country, in Europe, and the more intercourse we have
with it the greater will be the advantages to England.
I therefore concur entirely in the alliance we
have formed with France, and I sincerely
hope that it will long remain uninterrupted. I
shall pass over the Bank of England and the East India
Charter questions. I only regret that those questions have
been put off so long ; that is only to be accounted for
from the number of important questions that have
been continually before the House—(Hear)—but
I hope that those two important questions will now,
without delay, be settled to the satisfaction of the country.
.—(Hear, hear.) It would have been to me a matter of
great satisfaction if I could have learnt from the speech, or
from any other thing that has been stated, is hat are sons.
of the alterations that are to be proposed in the Church.
—(Hear, hear.) Whatever may be given, nothing shot t
of an effectual reform in the Church will be acceptable.
The number of persons who do not belong to the Church
far outnumber those who do; and unless his Majesty's
Government are active in removing the abuses in the
Church, unless these abuses are dealt with in a decided
and in an efficient manner, I fear that the oppor-
tunity of effecting it will be entirely lost. Let me
then express a hope that from what I have heard of the
reform that is to be proposed, it will be such as will be
satisfactory. I offer an advice to the Noble Lord oppo-
site, perfectly disinterestedly, when I assure that Noble
Lord that the best means of protecting the Church is by
introducing an effective and speedy Reform,—removing
all the abuses that now so glaringly exist in it. I
have never advocated or stood up for the spoliation
of Church property; but I have said this, that if you
put off the day too long, instead of the Reform that
might usefully be made, you will have nothing but
spoliation, and a spoliation that you will by no means
have the power to prevent. I express my entire
concurrence in the proposed reform of the Church, and I
sincerely hope it will he found to be such as will meet with
tha approbation of the majority of the country.—( Hear,
hear.) One drawback is with regard to the revenue.
wish upon this the Noble Lord may take advice
from past experience, and consider that what-
ever application of the revenue may be made
must he for efficient services. Every change
that k to be made must be to strike off those which are
inefficient, anti to preserve those only that are useful
and nece-nary, and to have such filled by persons
who would properly perform the duties of them.
If I could pass by a paragraph here I would do it,
but it is so contrary to my experience of what ought to
be, that I cannot help making an observation upon it. I

mean that paragraph which talks of the House in its deli-
berationa having a due regard to the security of the
Church, as established according to larv.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) It would, in my opinion, have been better
ic the present public state of f-eling if that paragraph had
frets left out, for it calls public attention to this point,
opal induces me to inform the Noble Lord, that in that part
of the country where I come from, and where religion is at-
tended to with much more particularity than anywhere else,
great bodies are meeting for the purpose of removing the
Church of Scotland, Entirely beneficial as it is to the
i:ountry, and pure in its system. I, therefore, call
upon the Noble Lord, if, in a country where the Established
Church is much better founded and stands upon purer prin.
eipbs than ours does, the inhabitants of that country are
saeoecting its removal, not to trust too much to its establish-
rnebt or purity in this country. The paragraph respecting
Ireland cannot but call for the greatest consideration. As
reprds Ireland, there is not a single Act which has been
passed since the present Government came into power,
which Ido not think objectionable, and calculated to
give dissatisfaction to the people of that unhappy country.
Majesty's Ministers are now showing every dispo-
sition to t efuse to do every thing that was required for the
peace of Ireland.—(Cries of "No, no.'') As far as we
cap judge st present, nothing but a hostile feeling has
been manifested. The mover of the address himself
bas insulted the Irish people, by saying that they
were led by any man. No doubt if any man had
lauence in Ireland, it was the Honourable and
iLearned Member for Dublin, but the Irish people did not
plorishly follow him, or complain of his dictation. Their
grievances existed before the Hon. Member for Dublin was
born, and they merely reposed confidence in him because
they found him to be a true, honest, and faithful represen-
iatiep of their rights.—(Hear, hear.) It is not proper
then to taunt the Hon. and Learned Member in the man-
pgr in which be has been taunted. It is the personality
that•has been used towards him in this and former ses li
-
aiuns, that. I must regret as the cause of this irregular
kind of discussion, I put it to any calm, impartial man,
~Mather, being held up as a bird of prey, ready to fix his
talons in his victim, is treatment under which we could
expee; the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, even with half the
spirit we itzlow him to be possessed of, could be quiet. If
he acts against ,the laws of the country, let him be pun-
ished by those laws, Lea do not let us every night have
a personal discussion between him and the Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland. I will not go into the evils which
:stisted in Ireland before the present Government came
into office, for we are all pretty well agreed as to its
liaracter ; but I charge the Right Hon. Secretary
and the Noble Lord opposite, with having violated their
faith with this House, and must say that it is impossible
for os to have such confidence in them as can justify us
in giving them powers beyond the law. Let me first ex-
press my regret at the Right Hon. Gentleman having been
able to listen to the list of evils enumerated by the
Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin, and
yet think Ireland can go without other remedial
blew:l4.4:a than those which be has yet spoken of as his in-
tention to bring forward. Did he hear the Hon. and
Learned Gentiernan's statement of the condition of the
Irish Magistracy—of the abuses of the Bench—of the
manner in which a Judge actually altered the law, without
being impeached, although well deserving of it ?
Mr. STANLEY—Perhaps the Hon. Gent. will allow
me to explain the real statement of this case to him. By
the Reform Act, the decision of the Assistant Barrister,
might be appealed from to the Judge of Assize. That
had been done in the present case, and his decision re-
versed.

Mr. HUME—At any rate it has not been contradicted,
that the people of Ireland have no confidence in their
Bench of Judges, that they have been appointed from
the worst motives, and were utterly unworthy,
in most instances, of the situations they held.
If Englishmen were to be Fo treated they would deserve to
be slaves if they did not rise and demand a correction of
the abuse.—(Cheers.) Is it, I would ask, no breach of
faith that these abuses have not been corrected ? Why, I
have myself heard it stated in this House that the abuses
should be corrected. They have not been, and I consider
it a great breach of faith that they have not.—(Hear.)
Is it not, I would ask, a source of great complaint,
on the part of the people of Ireland, that the Jury Bill
was allowed to lie so long on the table of the other House,
during the last session, Ministers either had or had not

•.
the power to remedy the grievances of Ireland. If they
hail not the power to do what they considered right, and
what they were pledged to do, they ought not to continue
in office a day longer ; if they have the power, they
ought at least to give some explanation to the country
why the measures which they stood pledged to carry are
not carried. Why have they allowed the law about
Juries, which they have themselves declared to be unjust,
to continue in operation for one, year? This was one
ground of complaint, and since that remains mummified,
he would refuse the additional powers which they re-
quired, till be knew whether it was their intention to re-
medy it or not. The appointment of Sheriffs was another
grand cause of complaint, and the political influence which
they possessed. Ministers might have submitted a notice
on that subject, which would have been some proof of their
intention to take the affairs of Ireland into their serious
consideration. Ministers said nothing about Grand Juries.
The Right Hon. Member said nothing of depriving
Catholics of a share in the offices in the appointment of
Government—said nothing of the 26 officers appointed
by the present Government, not one of whom was a
Catholic. If there were no other ground on which the
Irish natio❑ have to complain, this would he perfectly
sufficient—that all the offices are given, not to Irishmen,
but foreigners.—(A laugh.)

Mr. O'CONNELL—They are foreigners to us, since
they are of a different religion.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME continued—That alone was a sufficient
grievance to account for the discontent of Ireland. Now
what would the people of this country think, I
would ask, if the Noble Lords opposite should take it in
their heads to appoint 25 Magistrates in this country,
all Catholics ? Would such a measure give satisfaction ?
The gentlemen who had expressed such different senti-
ments some time ago, no sooner got upon the opposite
(Treasury) bench than, by an infatuation which seemed
to pervade all who took their seats there—(Laughter)—all
their liberal sentiments vanishes]. It is true we sometimes
hear a few liberal expressions, but see no liberal acts.
I must beg pardon, however, of the Noble Lord (Althorp),
of whom I must say, we seldom hear anything but what
is liberal.—(Hear, hear.) When Ministers were called
on, some time ago, to put an end to the disturbances
in Ireland, by calling for fresh powers, they refused to
ask for them, saying, that the best mode of tranquillizing
that country was, by removing the grievances which the
people complained of. I will ask now, how have they
fulfilled that assertion ? I beg to trouble the House with
a part of the speech of the Right Hon. Secretary on this
subject. The Hon. Member having read part of the speech
referred to, then proceeded. Nows what is it they proposed
to do ? Why to stifle the voice of a whole nation.—(Cries
of " Hear.") I will only take the evidence of the Right
Hon. Secretary himself as the best proof of my assertion.
He says that out of 102 rewards, amounting to 12,0001.,
only 2 have been claimed-.-40 completely does that prove
that the nation is united, that money will not bribe
them, and that there are no means of detaching men ; so
that it is, as I say, proceeding against a whole nation.
The Right Hon. Secretary, in his speech on a
former occasion, declared, that it was neces-
sary to make such seasonable and just concessions as
would be the means of tranquillizing the country. Now,
I will ask, has that been done ? When he was called on to
take extraordinary means, he refused, saying he bad means
sufficient to put down disturbances. Ireland was perfectly
quiet when the Right Hon. Secretary went there.—
(Hear.) It has been said that great content was expected
when Roman Catholic Emancipation should be granted :
and so it was ; for the people afterwards expressed
their gratitude in every possible way towards
those who supported that measure.—(Hear, hear.)
Had they not also been grateful for the Reform
Bill? And had they not done every thing that could
be desired of them, until that unlucky hour, when
the Tithe Bill was introduced ?—(Hear.) With re-
gard to the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin
(Mr. O'Connell) no man has been more maligned than
he was for his conduct on that occasion; and it ought
not to go forth that he is the Agitator of Ire-
land. Toe Agitator is the Right Hon. Secretary,
and the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin,
would, upon that occasion, have gone down on his
knees to overt the threatened danger. When the question
of tithes was brought before the House, it consisted of four
divisions: to three of them almost every Member connected
with Ireland assented ; to the other, which called for extra-
ordinary power, which placed the people under the mili-
tary, and gave the powerof prosecution and arrest without
the ordinary forms of law, a great objection was made.
Sir J. Newport, not now a Member, Sir H. Parnell, also
not now a Member, which I regret exceedingly—( Loud
cries of " Hear, hear")—and the Honourable Member
for Dublin, did all they could to induce Ministers not to
press that measure. There was scarcely an Irishman
in the House but joined in deprecating the introduction
of the question then, and telling Ministers that if they pressed
it, such scenes would be produced as would be disgrace-
ful to those who caused them, and ruinous to the country.
When I hear the repeal of the Union so much spoken
about, I would ask, is there a man more anxious for the
Union than Sir J. Newport?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Yet all merged their opinions in order to avert that evil.
Deputations waited on the Right Hon. Secretary, and
meetings were held in vain.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Secretary was inexorable. I said
that Ministers would rue it. I had expected that
Lord Grey would have judged for himself, but it ap-
pears that he is under some spell that prevents him
exercising his great faculties, and Ireland is left to one who
is not capable of judging of her situation. I am in-
formed also, that it is the same with the Noble Lord
opposite. I am sure that Lord Grey and the Noble Lord
opposite, if I can judge by their recorded opinions for
the last 25 years. must have bad some new light to
work this extraordinary change on them. What
have we then to complain of? The Ministers called to-
gether 230 English Members to ascertain their opinions.
The Hon. Gentleman then said they bad the whole power
of the military in Ireland already, and it would be a de-
gradation to their character and functions to make
them actually tithe-proctors. They had never tried
Irelind with conciliating measures, anti he would never
consent to grant the extraordinary powers now sought.
It was dastardly conduct in the Government to put
down the meetings in Ireland for petitioning against
paying tithes.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If they were not
afraid of letting the truth be known, they never would
have attempted to overawe the Irish.—(Cheers.)—
Where was there one remedy suggested for the griev-
ances which were felt and complained of?—(Hear.)
They had pledged themselves to a measure of
conciliation when the coercive measure was last Session
introduced. And not one item of redress had been yet
given to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Dragoons had scoured
the country, and Ireland was now in a state of civil
warfare in consequence of the misconduct of Government.
No country invaded by a foreign enemy was ever
ravaged by military in the manner it has been by the army
under the direction of the Right Hon. Gentleman. It is the
Right Hon. Gentleman who is the real Repealer.—
(Cheers and laughter.) It is useless to charge the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin with raising the cry for
repeal, when he is merely the agent of his country-
men in asking for their rights. If the Noble
Lord opposite and others have forgotten those li-
beral principles it is for the House of Commons to act
upon them. Why had a reformed House of Commons
been loudly called for by the country ? That the bad mea-
sures of a Government might be checked; that the griev-
ances of the people might be redressed._-( Hear, hear,
hear.) But the Right Hon. Chief Secretary declared
that the grievances of the people of Ireland should not he
redressed. He (Mr. Hutne) could repose no confidence in
a Government which permitted such a declaration. If the
Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government were
to act wisely, he would withdraw a Lord Lieutenant froth
Ireland, he would interpose no obstacle between the imme-
diate communications of the Irish people with the English
Government, and lie would never allow the Right Hon.
Gentleman to go to Ireland again.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Let him (Mr. Hume) do the Right Hon. G..ntletnan jus-
tice ; he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman had in-
tended to do his best, but it was sufficient to say that he
had failed, anti that he did not possess the confidence of
one man in Ireland.—(Hear, bear, hear.) Was the
proposed course the way to acquire that confidence?
The argument of the Right Honourable Gentleman
was, that • Government must be feared before they
were loved. Was not such doctrine enough to induce
a British House of Commons to rise and express one
universal sentiment of indignation ? At least let them
not, by arming the Government with fresh powers,
tender themselves the partisans of blood. Ireland had
already been worse treated by this country than Greece
had been by the Turks; and now his Majesty's Go-
vernment came forward with propositions for fresh
powers, without having in a single instance redeemed
the pledge to redress grievances with which they bad ac-
companied their last proposition of a similar nature. He
repeated, that he was tinah!e to give his confidence to men
who had so grossly. mismanaged the power which had
a'reatly been intrusted to them. The Hon. and Learned
memher for Leeds had asserted, that for 20 years before
the Union, Ireland had been overawed by England. He
(Mr. IL) bad been looking at the documents, and he
found that in 1792 there were only 8,000 troops in Ire-
land. He did not understand, therefore, what the Hon.
aid Learned Member for Leeds meant by overawing.
Nur was the argument of the Hon. and Learned Gentle.

nun founded on his assumption that the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin wished for the restoration of the old
Irish Parliament a just one. What the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin wanted was a Reformed Irish Parlia-
ment. If by the decision of the House that night they
agreed to place fresh powers in the hands of his Majesty's
Government, he (Mr. H.) should himself become a Re-
pealer at once—(Hear, hear)—and why not? Ireland could
not be worse off than under the military despotism which it
was proposed to inflict upon her. He would now say a
few words to those Members who had constituents, as
most of them now had.
,By those constituents they were
c dled upon to make every effort to diminish the enormous
establishments of the country. Were they aware that the
military establishment of Ireland cost annual), two mil-

lions ? If they redressed the grievances of which the Irish
justly complained, grievances which no freemen ought
to submit to, grievances which made slaves of, those who
were subjected to them, that large establishment might be
reduced. By maintaining it a reduction of taxation was
rendered impossible. If his Majesty's Government would
consent to redress the grievances of Ireland, the military
establishment in that country might he at once reduced
from between thirty and forty thousand ►o ten thousand
men. Was not that worthy of consideration by a reformed
Parliament? Again, if Ireland were to be maintained as
if it were a military garrison—if it were to be treated as
if it were a conquered country, how was it to he expected
that the people would ever obtain any profitable employ-
ment ? Who would be mad enough to carry his capital
to a country in such circumstances? But it was impos.
sible to expect that a people could be civilized unless they
were employed. An unemployed people must necessarily
be a lawless banditti. Every measure which had been
proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman had extended the
evils of disturbance, instead of restoring confidence and
tranquillity. He allowed that Ireland was at present in a
most disturbed state. But who had produced that state ?
Ills Majesty's Government. They once had peace in
Ireland, and they ought to have preserved it. What was
the cause of all this? The Irish Church Establishment..._
(Hear.) They might disguise it as they would, but that
was the real cause. Fourteen years ago he had declared in
his place, that it was necessary to the peace of Ireland that
the existing Church Establishment in that country should be
atolished. He now repeated the declaration. Were the
people of Scotiand saddled with a Church Establishment

contrary to the will of the majority ? 'Were the people of
England saddled with a Church Establishment contrary to
the will of the majority ? Why then should Ireland be so
saddled ? Was it for the support of religion ? That was

mere mockery. It was for the purpose of raising a
revenue to enrich Bishops and other dignitaries. Why
were twenty-two Bishops considered necessary for half a
million of people? He had i❑ his possession a long list
of Deans, Archdeacons, &c., all useless to the nation at
large ; and, although partial interests might be consulted
by maintaining them, that House ought to consider only
what was calculated to benefit the whole community.
Was it fitting and was it wise, in the present day, amidst
the events which were passing in this country and else-
where, when the people were beginning to think, aye, and
to act for themselves—was it fitting and was it wise to
persevere in such a course? He warned his Majesty's
Government—he warned the House against doing so.
Let them look at what had occurred in his own country.
Did not Scotland nobly and successfully resist the attempt
which had been made to saddle it with a hierarchy? He
could never complain of a nation which endeavoured to
achieve,
.in this respect, what the Scotch had achieved.
What right had they to say--the English shall be free, the
Scotch shall be free, hut the Irish shall he slaves?--(Hear.)
Why continue to keep up an establishment which had
been the bane of Ireland ? He was sorry that it was not
in his power to place that confidence in his Majesty's
Government on this point which he could wish to place
in them. For the acts of that Government, Earl Grey,
at the head of it, was responsible. Was it possible that
that Noble Earl, after having stood sa long on the emi-
nence of public opinion—having so lung and so openly
professed liberal opinions—was it possible that he could
permit such a course of proceeding to be continued ? Was
it possible tl at be could do so, when, by the boon which it
was in his power to bestow on Ireland, he might restore
the peace of Ireland, and consolidate the union of the two
countries ? He (Mr. Hume) had no wish to see that
union disturbed, and he thought he might undertake to
say for the Hun. and Learned Member for Dublin, that
if the peace and happiness of Ireland were restored by
justice being done to that unhappy country, that Hon. and
Learned Gentleman would have no wish to see the Union

disturbed. For his part, he (Mr. Hume) was persuaded
that any such disturbance would be highly mischievous to
both countries, and he should, therefore, be no friend even
to the consideration of the question of a repeil of the
Union, if the House and the Government did that

which every feeling of justice called upon them to
do.—(Hear, hear.) He would not again place con-
fidence in Ministers till their former pledges were made
good. As to the address, he did not wish to go so far as to
object to it all. But with that part which referred to Ire-
land, he most assuredly altogether differed.—(Hear, hear.)
If Ministers neglected to remind his Majesty of what was for
the good of his people, or any portion of them, he trusted
they should ever perform their duty in that respect. On
that account he had certainly felt a desire to introduce a
paragraph in the address, reminding his Majesty what
grievances had to be relieved, what taxation reduced. The
time was not far distant when be hoped they should re-
vert to the good old practice of requiring Ministers to lay
before the House, at the opening of each session, an expli-
cit detail of all those matters which it was their intention
to introduce.—( Hear, hear.) The present custom might
he well for Parliament as formerly constituted, but, as in
the Reformed Parliaments Members would be required to
do their duty uprightly and faithfully--for they were sent
to vote, not as Ministers'pleased, but as their country re-
quired—(Cheers)—he should suggest the withdrawal of
the amendment of his Hon. Friend the Member for Dub-

lin, in favour of one which would, at the proper time, be
introduced by his Hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth.
He questioned very strongly, indeed, the propriety and
justice of granting to Ministers the extraordinary powers
they sought for, without a previous ample inquiry by that
House.—(Hear, hear.) If he recollected rightly, in every
instance of applicatiOn for extraordinary powers, instead of
placing hastily beyond the sacred pale of the law any por-
tion of his Majesty's dominions, it had always been con-
sidered incumbent upon them by the Ministers of the
d ty to come prepared with strong evidence and a com-
plete case.—(Cheers.) He now called upon Ministers to
show upon what grounds—on the faith of what statements
they were prepared to outlaw the whole of Ireland
(Loud cheers.) Was it not, he would ask, enough to raise
even this country ? He would say there was no case what-
ever, calling for the concession by the House of these ex-
traordinary powers. Still he hoped the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin would withdraw his amendment, and
support that of the Right Hon. Member for Lambeth, which
was more appropriate to the occasion, and well calculated to
meet the views of many Hon. Gentlemen. If the Hon.
Member for Dublin had really the influence—the great
and wonderful influence which he was supposed to have—
if he did possess such amazing power over his country-
men; so much so, that it was said he wished to be King,.
and had already the power of King—(Loud laughter from
the Ministerial Benches) ; that they said (pointing to the
Treasury Bench), but he (Mr. Hume) denied it—(Cons
talued laughter); nay, not one sentiment in the eloquent
speech last evening of the Hon. Member for Leeds, re-
ceived such hearty cheering, as his allusion to the sub-
ject ; if lie said be did possess this influence, then take
him on Lis own word.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
He asks for justice, and nothing more. Let that justice
be extended to Ireland, and he (Mr. Hume), and every
man who now opposed with him this demand for extra-
ordinary powers, would then join with one accord in
conceding them.—(Loud cheers.) But until that was
done, he entreated the House to go along with him in
refusing therm. Extraordinary powers were asked for
last session—pledges of apparently the most sincere and
earnest character were given, but they were never ful-
filled.—(Hear, bear.) He, therefore, trusted the Right
lion. Member for Lambeth would be supported in the
!notion which, at a proper period, would be brought before
the House. The Hon. Gentleman concluded—(amidst
cheers)—by expressing his hope that lie had offended no
one's feelings in what he had said ; he confessed he had
spoken strongly, but this could not be otherwise, when
he felt warmly.
Sir ROBERT FERGUSON argued in favour of the
Address. Ministers did not ask to govern Ireland by force
—no such thing—they merely asked that the police
should be stronger only whilst insubordination prevailed,
and the necessity of the case required strong remedial inea-
sures. To say otherwise was unfair and ungenerous. They
were attacking Ministers without giving them an oppor-
tunity of defending theinselves—without knowing what
measures they intended to propose to benefit and pacify
that unhappy country.—(Hear, hear.) He asked the
Hon. and Independent Members of the House to place
confidence in Ministers till such time as they had been
fairly tried and found wanting. Would the House be filled
with so many liberal-minded Gentlemen, supporters of
Government, if the Government was an illiberal Govern-
ment ? He would make a remark on one observation
made the other night by the lion. Member for Knaves-
borough (Mr. Richards), who appeared very well ac-
quainted with Ireland, " or two unfortunate priests at
least." He (Sir Robert) would have poor laws for the
aged and the helpless, but he would never consent to die!.

grace an able-bodied man by them. One other observa-
tion he begged to make on what had fallen from the Right
Hon. Member for• Oxford (Sir Robert Inglis). He had
no doubt in his own mind that the Church property was
the property of the State—(Cheers)—and could be ap-
propriated by the State. In conclusion, he implored the
House not to withhold their confidence from the Govern-
ment ; for, in a short period, he had no doubt they would
show how sincerely they had at heart the real welfare of
the people. He should be bitterly disappointed if their
measures were not such as every well-wisher of his country
would approve.
Mr..OOI3BETT and Major BEAUCLERK rose together.
There were loud cries for the former, but the Hon. Mem-
ber gave way to
Major BEAUCLERK, who warned the Government of the
darigera they were incurring, of the precipice they were
headlong rushing to by the conduct at present adopted to-
wards Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the mea-
sures of a first Reformed Parliament should be of a bene-
volent and considerate character, rather than of a tone
suited to the feelings of the late House of Commons.—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear '') He asked whether, as
Members returned to enforce retrenchment in every branch
of the expenditure—to carry reform into every department
of the State—to lighten the burdens of the nation, and
relieve the heavy distresses of the people, they could be
fully satisfied by that speech, which never mentioned the
sufferings of the people from one end to the other.—
(Cheers.) They were bowed down by their privations,
which, if not equal to those endured by Ireland, were yet
much greater tha❑ bad ever been known before in Eng-
land. It was the duty of Ministers to notice this distress
—( Hear, hear)—and instantly to endeavour to apply a
remedy. That could only be found in a reduction of our
overgrown establishments.—(Hear, hear.) He could not
hut remark on the bad taste displayed by the Noble Lord,
the mover of the address—at the ill-judged and unman-
nerly manner in which he had attacked the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dublin, than which in his life he had heard no-
thing more shameful. For himself he was no repealer--
the great repealer, the great agitator was, as the Hon.
Member fer Middlesex had stated, the Right Hon. Secre-
tary for Ireland. The Tithe Bill was the great cause of
agitation in Ireland—(Cheers)—and who prepared and
introduced it? He must say one word with regard to
what be had often read of the Hon. Member for Dublin.
That Learned Individual was never more mistaken, never
uttered anything more false in his life, than when he stated
that the English people were actuated by unkind feelings
towards their Irish brethren—thattreyhad no sympathy in
their sufferings. The people of England did sympathise
with them—did feel for them—(Cheers)—felt that they
were oppressed and ill•used unmeritedly. The Irish were
a gallant, a high-minded, and a generous people, and
might be turned to any course, and bound to any Govern-
ment by kindness and fair treatment.—(Cheers.) But
certain Honourable Gentlemen would find out that they
were not to he shot in the woods like so many snipes.—
(Hear, and laughter.) He greatly regretted this unhappy
passage in the speech, for he was sure the feelings of the
Monarch were those of a humane gentleman and a Chris-
tian. The Ministers should have made the speech like
that of the President of the United States in reference to
South Carolina, which was in exactly the same situation
as Ireland—they should have used the language of reason
and of kindness—(Laughter and cheers)—instead of draw-
ing the broad sword, and attempting to quiet them by
bayonet and steel.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing on earth
would ever put the Irish down but justice and kindness.—
(Loud cheers.) Let that be the maxim and the practice,
and the Right Hon. Secretary might soon walk from East
to South, and from North to West, and put to flight every
rebel in the country. There was one observation made
by the Right Hnn. Secretary in his speech which he had
heard with amazement and indignation. Speaking of
repeal, he said :Ministers " would war against it to
the death." Had he (Major Beauclerk) used such a
term, he would have been scouted by them as the
veriest Radical breathing.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In
Ministers such language was nothing—(Hear, hear)—
it was not thought unbecoming, indecent, no, nor uncon-
stitutional—(Load cries of " Hear")—but in the repre.
sentatives of the people it was designated violent and re-
bellious language.—(Loud cheers.) The system pursued
by Ministers towards Ireland was one which would bring
the whole nation to ruin ; it was one, however, which
the people of England would never consent to. Already
had he received intimations from several parts of the

county which he had the honour to represent, denouncing,
in the most determined manner, the threatened coercive
measures.—(Cheers.) He, therefore, implored Ministers
to pause in their career—be besought them to respond
to the feelings of the country, by withdrawing that por-
tion of the address which referred to Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HALL—It might perhaps be deemed presumption
in him who had so lately had the honour of a seat in that
House, to rise up for the purpose of addressing it after
the able and eloquent speeches they had lately heard, and
after the lengthened debate which had already been gone
into, but he would rather subject himself to such an im-
putation than sit down and give a silent vote on the im-
portant question now before them. He could assure the
House, that it was not his intention to take up much of
their time, or to prevent Hon. Members more conversant
with the state of Ireland than himself from delivering their
opinions, but during the few observations he had to
make upon the present occasion, he trusted lie might
claim the patience and indulgence of the House.—(Hear.)
The question immediately before them was that an address
be presented to his Majesty, in the tenor of the speech
from the Throne, to which the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin had moved an amendment, which, if allowed
to pass, would compel the House to form itself into a
Committee, and enter verbatim into the contents of the
address moved for by the Noble Lord. Now he (Mr.
Hall) would confess, that, feeling as he did every sympathy

for the sufferings of his fellow-subjects in Ireland, he could
not but regret the proposition of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, because he thought it would not tend to any
very material benefit, but that the time of the House would
be taken up in discussions which, in his opinion, had better be
delayed until the questions upon which such discussions
must again arise be brought fully and fairly before the House.
—(Hear, hear.) Upon this ground, therefore, be was
disposed to vote fur the amendment of the Honourable
Member for Dublin—but in giving his support to the ad-
dress, he was well aware that he pledged himself to give
additional powers to his Majesty's Ministers, to enable
them to carry into effect the laws now in operation i❑
Ireland. He did so with reluctance, because he re-
gretted that cause should exist for additional powers ; but he
hoped that in the course of a very few days the Right
Hun. Secretary for Ireland would come down to this
House fully prepared to lay before it his views and inten-
tions with regard to that unfortunate country, that he
would enter into the subject in a tone of conciliation, not
one of intimidation—( Hear, hear)—and that be would ex-
plain clearly and explicitly the extent of power with which
be desired to be invested. He was willing to place confi-
dence in the Members of his Majesty's Administration,
judging of them by their former conduct ; but although he
voted for the address to his Majesty, he must reserve
to himself that liberty which every Hon. Member now
had of opposing such additional power, if he considered

. -
that the demand was too extensive, or if he deemed it in-
compatible with the real interests and welfare of the sister
country.—(Cheers.) He could not sit down without ad-
verting to tt'e real state of Ireland. Let them view it in
any way they pleased, be would say that it was in a
state bordering upon distraction—the seeds of dis-
cord had been sown, and unless timely remedies were
applied, they would reap a plentiful but woeful
harvest of misery. Allusion bad been made by the
lion. and (.earned Member for Dublin, to the ab-
sence of a Noble Lord, and it had been followed up by tie
Noble Member for Devonshire. Most sincerely did he
Join in the regret expressed by those Hon. Members. He
rsgretted his not being here in a private as well as a
public point of view. He lamented the absence of a
man endued with every feeling of honour, whose con-
duct could only be actuated by a wish to do right; whose
excellence of character, and whose integrity of principle
could be surpassed. by none, but were found equalled in the
person of his Noble Father—(Hear, hear, hear)—bearing a
title which, connected as it was with Ireland, and repre.
rented as it was by its possessor, must call forth love and
regard from every feelinc, bosom in his native country._
(Cheers.) But what did' this absence prove ? It showed
that the Noble Lord would not sicritice his prin.
ciple ; but it also manifested that there was a
spirit in Ireland which had proved almost irre-
sistible. He was not one of those who ascribed
the present miseries of Ireland to the acts of his Majesty's
Ministers; lie would not even lay them entirely on the
head of the former Administration ; but he believed that
they were the consequences of a long series of misrule,
producing internal discontent, and offering food for agi.
tation.—( Hear, hear.) He would not now enter into the
subject of the repeal of the Union, because if that question
should ever be brought before the House he should have fu-
ture opportunities of discussing it; but at present he
would merely state, that although he wished every reason-
able benefit to be conferred upon Ireland, and considered
that she should partake of the same blessings and comforts
which he as a subject of England enjoyed, he would
oppose that measure to the utmost, because he, in
his conscience, believed that a repeal of the
Legislative Union, notwithstanding all that might
b! now said to the contrary, would tend surely
and speedily to a dismemberment of the empire. The

Hon. Member then alluded to the speech of the Noble
Mover of the address, and regretted the tone which had
been taken by the Noble Lord, and after calling upon the
House calmly and disp issi stately to review the state of
Ireland, and laying i►side all animosities, to resolve at once
to exert itself to ameliorate the condition of that unfor•
tunate country, sat down amid loud cries of " Hear."
Mr. TANCRED must say, that in his opinion all the
Hon. Members who had spoken in this discussion had
committed the mistake of speaking of the evils of Ireland,
as if they were of a simple, and not of a complicated
nature.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was sure that that was
flat the fact, and he was convinced, therefore, that the
remedy for them could not possibly be found in one act
of the Legislature, let that act be in itself ever so im-
portant.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He sincerely hoped that
the evils of Ireland bad been exaggerated by some of
the Honourable Members who came from that part of
the empire, but if but one-half of what they had
stated was true, the remedies they had proposed were
puerile.—(Hear, hear.) They were inapplicable.—(Hear,
hear.) They were utterly inadequate.—(Hear, hear. )
They had been told by the Hon. Member for Meath, of a
state of circumstances which, if they really existed as that
Hon. Member supposed, would set at defiance the effect
of the remedy proposed by some Hon. Gentlemen ; nay,
indeed, would become infinitely worse by its application.
The Hon. Member bad stated that in a population of
8,000,000 only 1,600,000 were engaged in agriculture,
that trade was utterly ruined, and that there was a mass
of paupers of the most alarming extent existing through-
out the country. Indeed such must be the case with a po-
pulation of above five millions of unemployed persons. All
these persons must be in a miserable condition, and it
was impossible that they could be relieved, and could be
restored to a state of happiness or comfort merely by im-
provements in Grand Jury Acts, or by the repeal of Acts
relating to trespasses, or any other partial measure of
that nature. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the
Member for Dublin, had stated with truth that we were
on the brink of a volcano. If only one half of what that
Hon. Member had stated was true, he should be willing
not only to consent to suspend the Habeas Corpus, but
to, appoint the Duke of Wellington, or any other man
in,whom the country had confidence, to be Dictator of
Ireland.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL spoke to order.—(No.) He wished
to know whether it was constitutional in that House to
suggest the possibility of the appointment of a Dictator ?
The SPEAKER made some observation, but in so low
a tone of voice as to be quite inaudible.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Wh it ! the suggestion of
.the ap-
pointment of a Dictator over Ireland !
The SPEAKER—I am inclined to think that the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, in the warmth of his feeling,
somewhat misunderstands what has been stated. There
was no recommendation to appoint a Dictator. What was
stated was stated hypothetically; and, if I recollect rightly,
it was only yesterday that some suggestion of the same
kind was made with respect to a King of Ireland.—
(Loud cheering and laughter, both of which continued for
some time.)
Mr. TANCRED continued—The House and the Hon!
and Learned Gentleman might be equally assured that he
had used the expression without the slightest wish to
give offence to any one; and, if it did give offence, be
would not repeat the obnoxious name. He had only, in
the course of his argument, wished to express the idea that
he would appoint some great character in whom the coun-
try had confidence, and tell him to see ne quid Reepublica
detrimenti capiat. What were the evils from which Ireland
really suffered? If they looked to other States, they might be
able to trace the causes with sufficient certainty to give a gene-
ral answer to the question. If they did so, they would
find those states happy where there was a competition in
the demand for labour, and those unhappy in which
there was a competition for subsistence.—(Hear, hear.)
In that manner he believed that New Holland and America
might be said to be happy States, for there the power to
labour insured the means of subsistence. But if, on the
other hand, he desired to give an instance of the want of
happiness arising from the want of employment, he did
❑ot know that he could refer to one where there was
more suffering than in Ireland. For evils of this nature,
as they were of slow growth, so there was not any exer-
tion, of a legislative nature, that would instantly remove
them. Such evils, too, would never be cured by agita-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He might refer to France for a
proof of it. In that country, unhappily, every party in
turn took advantage of any circumstance to create agita-
tion ; and whether Carlists, or Bonapartists, or Constitu-
tional, all thought they must have a movement. Within
one week after the election of their present King, he
believed that thousands of artisans assembled in the streets
of Paris, and said, " We have our mouvement, we have
shed our blood for you, but where is the benefit for us ?"
But their assemblage only increased the evils of which
they complained ; for if there was want of employment
before, it was not likely it would be removed by agitation
and excitement; and in fact it was augmented till that
excitement had ceased. In the same manner, the remedy
for the evils of Ireland could not be found but in the im-

provement of the condition of the people, by an increased
demand for labour ; and that improvement could only be
gradually introduced, by furnishing the means of employ-
ing labour, by increased confidence, and an increased
feeling of security among the people at large. Emigra-
tion alone, unless effected to an extent which he
could not possibly anticipate, would have no such
result. He believed that the course now pur-
sued by some of the Irish Members would prevent
all these advantages. If the wish of those Hon. Gentle-
men was granted, he believed that the ruin of the country
would be consummated ; and if it was true that we now
stood on the brink of a volcano, he could foresee quite
clearly that the prime agitator—the leader of the party--
and those who implicitly followed him, would be, by the
necessary consequences of their own act, precipitated into
its crater.—(Hear, hear.) There was one Hon. Gentle-
man, who had long sat in that House, but who was now
unhappily not a Member of it, whose opinion be had
consulted, and who had furnished him, at his desire, with
some details to prove what was the real state of Ireland
with respect to trade and agriculture. That Right Hon.
Gentleman (he meant Sir H. Parnell) had furnished him
with the paper which he now held in his hand. It was
drawn up by that Right Hon. Gentleman, and appended
to a petition presented by him to the Grand Jury of the
Queen's County—of that county that enjoyed numerous
benefits, of which that Right Hon. Gentleman had been
the author, but who, because he would not truckle to the
popular delusion of the day—(Hear, hear)—was, at a
moment when the deepest interests to the country were at
stake—(Hear hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—bad rejected
him, and they found themselves with a Repealer in his
stead. The Right Hon. Gentleman had furnished him
with a statement, showing the relative exports and imports
of the three years before 1800, and the three years before
.„—..

1826. The paper showed the rate at which the increase of
national wealth had gone on. The Hon. Gent. real several
extracts. The articles, by the exportation of which the
agriculture of Ireland was benefited, had greatly increased
in amount in the three years preceding 1826. The num-
ber of oxen exported in the three years before 1800
amounted to 14,105 ; in the three years before 1526 they
amounted to 57,000. A similar increase had taken place
in the number of sheep and swine, in bacon and ham, and
in wheat and flour. In the last article, the quantity ex-
pored in the three years before 1800, amounted to
24,077 qrs. ; in the three years before 1826, it reached
375,781 qrs. The quantity of oats and oatmeal, in the
three years before 1300, amounted to 320,474 qrs. ;
in the three years before 1826, to 1,301,182 qrs. lie
believed that the only practical relief to Ireland would be
in nourishing these streams of wealth ; and that as time
flowed on they would increase in extent, till they covered
and fertilized the land ; and believing this, he could not
but ask himself what he must think of those men who
clamoured for that which, if granted, he was firmly con-
vinced would prevent all these beneficial consequences ?
(Hear, hear.) Did they believe that if the Union were
repealed the corn trade to this country would be any
longer suffered to continue open—that the present system
of the importation of Irish produce and manufactures
would be tolerated—a system which was now borne at a
great sacrifice by the landed interests of this country, and
which was submitted to only on account of the general good?
If these advantages—and they were great advantages for
Ireland—were destroyed, what must follow but a disorga-
nization of society ; and these poor deluded creatures,
who, it was now slid, were dying in ditches, would find
their miserable number fearfully increased, and would
come to seek a dreadful retribution on these gentlemen
agitators.—(Hear, hear.) His reason for being willing to
support the proposition for coercion was to he found in
those cases of violations of law put forth not by thelllinis-
tens, hat by those who opposed the address —(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had talked of
absenteeism as an evil. If so, were not that Hon. Mein-
ber'a thousand men—he hoped they were only ,r uteri in
buckram "--(A laugh)—more likely to drive capital and
men from the country, than to attract them to it—(Hear)
—especially when it appeared that no age or sex was safe
there—that at least was the assertion of those Hon.
Members, not of himself; but there could be no doubt
that every one of the evils they had described would fol-
low if the measure they recommended was adopted. That
measure he should entirely disapprove, if it only occa-
sioned those evils which had been so ably and eloqu, n•ly
described in the Statesmanlike speech of the lion. and
Learned Member for Leeds, That Hon. Member had •

e
proved and there bad been no attempt to diaPr°,l-;00
that its effect on this country would be most inJul'oil:
and even if there were no other ground--and, unbjsPe`s
them were many others most important to Ireland it
se
he should, far one, feel bound to resist it.—(llear') t
tb
I,e
Mr. CORBETT and two other Members rose 8,
same time. There was a call for Mr. Cobbett, and theni ofis
gave way. The Hon. Member spoke to the 110
effect :—lf the doctrine of the Hon. Gentleman vi;jl
last spoken is good, then there is no regiedY at tbst'
Ireland ; and it would be as well to say at once 03k
military dictation should take place, and Ireland he sait'
in th .t manner. Why such a fuss about parting., ge
Ireland ? If it is good for nothing, why not ietti;ear
You are monstrous loath to part with it.—(Near'n'i
However, the Hon. Gentleman has fallen into a tb
e
error. He has followed the steps of the Hon. itl
tb
for Knareshorough, and comes to us piping hot 119°10i,
lectures of Sir H. Parnell. The schoolmaster is abt1)00
abroad, indeed—and he has been the tutor of the trio
Gentlemen on the floor. There never was a falser (sinew
in the world than that held up to us by the Hon. 31 a3aioe
He assumes, that because Ireland has exported mote ro•
the Union than before it, that therefore in the as'neiPpa
portion Ireland is more prosperous ; and the Right a wtre
Secretary, taking the argument from the Hon. i"e
for Knaresborough, availed himself of all the adios
that could be derived from it, and the well-stationed s,
well-disciplined battalion behind him echoed and cb,:eo
what he said. What is the fact, then ? I lament "000
that the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobbett here turned r
and sa'd inquiringly--" He is not here")—I lapieo
dscg
say that my Hon. Colleague is not here. He ha:,,b 1,
ments to lay before the House, for the truth of vinh'; sa
is responsible, the truth of which no man can dcntbt'tl,l
which will show that in exactly the same proportion
the trade of Manchester increased, in the same Pr°11:0
have the profits of the manufacturers, the wage' st
labourer and the comforts of the labourer decrease'''o
which will prove that in these times of excessive Pr",,
rity, of which the Hon. Member for Leeds has arif
(No)—there are at least 10,000 persons in Lee°
getting so much as 3d. a day. A bOlj
Mr. MACAULAY—I never said one word 6
prosperity.—(Hear, hear, Oh !)
Mr. COBBETT—The Hon. Member said t-sver
had the honour of being the representative of t„dl
prosperous town. He is the representative of 00
Now, I will pledge myself to prove that there are 11/'l,j
persons in that town who do not get 3d. a day' bid
Hon. Colleague will bring the proofs which he bas
self collected. Thus, at the peace, when there 1/3")
tolerable degree of prosperity, and the labouring Pes°1pv
were doing pretty well, the importation of cotton sv;:et,
what it is now. The importation of cotton Tvaa en'
my Hon. Colleague will go into the details, 1 shah er,
the substance-6,000 bags a week. Then the P bid
were well off. When it came to 11,000 bag',
is nearly double, profits fell to one half, and n'sof
also ; and when it became 20,000 per week, as it's nd
lie will bring you an account of 50,000 persons,
full work—of bO,OOO persons in one district atincat.
personally examined, he himself being a great
turer—will bring you an account, which he could vet
oath, of 50,000 persons in that district living on lees
lid. a day, and they in full work at the same tit9,-,at
(Hear, hear.) So the Hon. Member must not driolt.
elusions hastily, that because trade has increasedr.,lo
ness has increased also. He should not draw COnewi del
of that sort, for if he does not remember the fact
that there was a time when the minister of the avail
attended by the churchwardens and overseers (to stunt
late our charity) came from door to door, and ray ttei,aat
was that I had no charity for Irish landlords, for I al
that they would get it after all.—(Hear.) That 'lrg
time when there were 22,000 tons of oats brought dot
Galway, while from that same Galway we had s,bri
count of men dying from starvation. Well, then,
notions of the Hon. Member are fallacious—they g°';ll'
do. It must be humiliating for him to find bitn"(l)
mistaken—but it must be still more humiliating af,t,e,sl'
opinions have been cheered with such exultation.
,f'
aye," said the Right Hon. Secretary, 's there's Pr"-„,cl
the false charges against the Union—he is a Pra;i;
gentleman—he knows and understands what be '5O/fs
and in that way the thing went on most triumPht,n are
the time. Another error of the Hon. Member for 00
borough, which, if he had been attended to (but 0'
moving from one part of the floor to the other Prev,0
n)10
that), I should not answer, for the Hl)l3°
Gentleman completely answered himself. That
ut
satisfactory way of arguing—(A laugh)—rubbill
tr
as you go.—(A laugh.) He said that the 'lt,
medy was not the repeal of the Union. I have °kali
one word upon the repeal of the Union, for I donnt,,of
much about it at present, and it is a rule with Wel,"
talk about a matter till I have had time to coosider,,,l,
till I think I understand it.—(llear.) The Horn
her said that the repeal of the Union was not the r,eo- se'
but that the introduction of poor laws was..."'nfthl
Well, one of the remedies. Now in the opening,;„-i,te
Hon. Member's speech was a complaint that the 1/1".1l)
had not mentioned the distressed state of the pored- to
country. He referred to the Noble Lord who In°%),jlk,
address, and he said that the Hon. Member for „-b
had been accused of the crime of commission, so
accused Ministers of the crime of omission, a En°-4
omission, that they did not state the distress eftisl3pot
England, forgetting all the while that there vOll,
laws in England. We have had this distress ti'oo,
often and often, but now it seems to have been farg°.
We have talked about it, and about it,
„a h.)
Till e'en the believers seem to doubt it.—(A LIM/
I remember something that was said by the lion. FRP
tary for Ireland that pleased Ine exceedingly tIV
given a criterion of the right of resistance—a criterianoa
I sha'l examine by and bye, and it shows that 'tot
should not be too confident in what he says, nor too ,o
in pledging himself to anything. There is danger 'riot
A man should not say, " this is right, and that!sil 100
and I will stand by it ;" for I remember what once
the Right Hon. Secretary, for I admired it for the ott
ner, but not for the matter. I dissented from the of fof
and I said so at the tune, and I believe be ha' r,
given me for it from that diy to this. The 1100°°
Member for Middlesex, then Member for Aberdet°'

es. PIY In
a proposition for curtailing the Church •blowfl, ec,„ te h,
Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, a great authorityta'ool, fa,74t 4;14
Lord Chancellor for Ireland, a greater, both laid it, 00 ei„_11); _
of
indubitable law, that Parliament had no more righ'topet' rcAttec and
with the property of the Church than with the P ju,:le,iv_Y
of any private individual. I appeal to the books nr;e ff to 1:
point ; they will bear me out, and I speak in r trial
Bence of 300 or 400 gentlerntn who must recollecsece our
what I say is true. Yet the Right Honourablevso ReeltaocurY, at
tary for Ireland who made that declaration, whe sr tElt Nity,e• lt
positive upon the subject, who has before brongf r aid)! 11,4 ant
Bill or two, has now told us he has taken cred!! 11
intention, and has called upon us to arm him wit',,ra it' the ~,t1 4.,"e
for the purpose, that he means to bring in Bills 1"-fetif us i."tolc. del
actually shake the Church all to pieces. He 1189; thei,71,0,0 1
out, therefore, that Parliament has a right to deal th4t..4lte,tnal
the property of the Church—that it is public and o'l'o4o to rhit l'eEtBl°4°
property. Ido not charge him with anything, deb tleotttrasci (Nit
in this change of opinion ; I only skate the fact thalall quitt4 riepv„! •
found out that Church property is public pro Per c the littldive
gether. An Honourable Gentleman on the back ot' allob,clicreent t
I do not know for what place he sits, observed tit if 110,714; ince
did not know how to distinguish between the Welt Will', will Leer
private property, and yet it was public propertY it 'of skirl, 4 ior,u,c
necessary, he said, to touch it, and yet to touch 1, oft, that t7l'tt
be spoliation. Ido not call taking that which the'';
miright t
attonodotkapkieetr,hfraosppmsoloidanoteeim,anatnodgitvhee
iqtutoestaionnotita:l4,9s
.0441toi":41itthe::::
;t p - tom.
liament a riAlit to deal with Church property a' -,;b011„i tjtiei," tog rh--c
or has it not? It did once, I know, deal with the -3 fu
lr
eatpaiwitdedaknyvvettiTii;oaeafitrlvueßiitts,ttedwiosfceohknnraddotand a
nd hs Woburnit
not Abbea yr
gt t g itvoe
dt
oh ei'tn,sotirit, !lot itl tt,il
tlv4stred
I do not here speak of Dean and Chapter propel-1P :44, 14). than
err
• a he
stand on a different greu!', Or -Peet' 44
I speak of Church property generally. It is gel.; / 1,,t0 51,11°43
that there is no spoliation in the case. S°l-eert4,,s' r-c4to w
t?issTpthohaleitaltHeionongntoliuif,raaynbodlue
woßnhaleyrroengaeore, trnetiv.ooebdioeit},
for Oxford, was quite right for his purpose in talY,ll4 Peers 4 to• t
P)
Parliament had no right to meddle with it at 011,ittiat'e
that it was spoliation ; but on this point, althnng, eV, p 04;t thser;
other, lam able to cope with the Hon. Ilarnne`t'ee; the
insist, arid will prove, that it is the nation's s°d roll
N1,1'01:444
—.that we have a right to do with it as we like': rye Pr Pre;c4t tl, tot
we are bound to do with it as may be best for tin° otli troottivati: bao
present. A great deal depends upon the tern' "Poo the 4
Stigmatise it with the name of spoliation, and Ircpbta say ~„'t a ,11,1
much ; but I defy the most impudent of mankioaureer try tipoo''''y h4,‘,"
forward anything more impudent in his whole.' wbstlil roti,y'lle,o; of
to say this—Do what you will with it—make it_.t sve ) hie a_t:tvat
will, public or private, clerical or unclerical, bo"eatlee,/ xibe
leave it all still in the families it belongs to. , neoi sbsoitit° boa':
should, however, be told a tale they perhaps °veriest, the co t
told before (for we come here to speak in plain, 11,1' Else, ,:hetty,etiess
to lard one another with flattery, whether big" t,0,, is fg) "reeri,
that nothing is clearer than that Church proPe! oso., slid 1,0 4oa ttath,
lie property, and nothing is dealer than that Moore di hi„' to rii3otl
by the aristocracy of the kingdom. Not a . sty ? ghl
families hold all the Church property of Icela° ;I, bay, h_wh,
ask, whether it is the interest of the gentletoo:3t 011/ live beetailh
land to have their estates mulcted to the Ole P !ho 1et,34 e
of t ea 4 elit. eel°
millions sterling, according to the calculation
_s t0.,0 • 1 but ber for Middlesex, to maintain an army of soldieo,',
pel the payment of tithes to forty families? P