The Sun.
London, England, 1802-12-18 00:00:00

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be

awn d,:Pattatient, vet it afterwards appeared, ha's
Li
ie rap& in which the Bill was framed, that the
'ard of Admiralty was meant to he exempted ;
fl r, as the Commissioners were from that to derive
their chief information, it was not to he expeEted
that the Admiralty would be its own accuser, and
fuvrlish materials for crimination against itself.—
_ithout having had any communication on the sub-
sra, he had internal evidence to convince him
that this Bill had not the concurrence or assist-
ance of the Officers of the Crown, nor had it
the recotnmendation or co-operation of any of
the other Boards. The measure indeed, tinder the
direffion of legal and professional abilities, could
not at first have appeared in so garbled a state.—
Besides, he was far from being convinced of the ne-
cessity of such a step. Were the hands ache Navy
and Admiralty Boards altogether tied ? Was there
nothing they could do in remedy of these abuses ?
They had, at least acecording to every aCeount, fully
dete&ed them, and if so, why did they not send
them before the ordinary tribunals to see what re-
medy they could afford ? The objea of the Bill was
evidently to extraft from delinquents evidence to
be afterwards employed against themselves, which
was contrary to the spirit and charafter of the Laws,
and of the British Constitution. This being the
ease, he must contend that it was not justified by
tleetdent and that this was the first time that
lA'nwer was given to any Commission to extort from
'Unguents evidence against themselves.
e The
r-°e,",ersation to be so premature as to border on ir-
him'buslritY, and was apprehensive, of being thought
he f.`" going into the disorder he complained of, in
-Ttew observations with which he meant to detain
ft-e flouse. The points in debate had best be re-
erred for the Committee on the Bill ; those who
wished to meet its advocates upon the principle,
had better defer their arguments for the third read_
ting on to.mcrrow. One Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
ItigcEs) did not even confine himself to the case
'before him, but applied his arguments to the former
4-1"1, which was now so materially altered. In no
ease, however, was the Board of Admiralty ex-
cluded from being subjdt to inquiry. It was to fur.
t'ish the. Commissioners with all :he information it
Could afford, but they were by no means confined
to that Board, as they were direfted to apply to
every other source whence intelligence could be de.
rived. Some of these observations came in a shape
a little curious, and seemed calculated principally to
impugn and cast suspicion on the motives of Govern.
meat. The condua of the new Opposition was sin-
gular enough. Here the Government came forward
to declare that the abuses did exist in a very serious
degree. This was not denied by the new opposing
Members, and a Noble Lord (It ateeE) in•parti-
tilar, who, however, sounded the\ tLumpet of alarm,
10 excite jealousy against the Ministers (a cry of
4ear! hear ! loudly vociferated). The Gentlemen
Ile apprehended who were so clamorous for procuring
beim, a hearing, were, perhaps, taking the most effec-
tual means to prevent him from obtaining one.— When Commissioners were appointed on former oc-
tasions for
the Purpose of instituting inquiries, no
such clamours had been
Noble Lord, and.othersseemed to think that all
excited against them. The
the__ objeas might be as well attained by means of a
C_ommittee of the House of Commons ; but they
should have reeolleaed, that Committees were, in
30- far at least defe&ive; that they had not the power
examining persons upon oath, which was granted
I°. Commissioners. As to the nbjeaion, that by the
'TII, delinquents might be compelled to criminate
themselves, it would not have been stated if Gen_
Herren had the industry to examine it a little far-
Inert where they would find a clause expressly in-
trcdoced to prevent the evidence of any, man from
b
eing suffered to operate injuriously against him-
self.

Dr. LAWRENCE considered the whole of this
debate to have been most strielly within order. He
for One, thought it his duty to struggle against the
Leasure. He was careless of what may be said about
hts being in Opposition, but was not careless as to
the issue of the question, and opposed giving this
Power now, for it was the right of every Member
to Choose whatever stage he thought proper for go-
ing into a discussion. if there was thought to be
any occasion for precipitancy, the present was the
Only good Opportunity that would occur for propos-
4n,g any oblations. He did not think the-matter
Should be suffered to remain for so bold and
desperate a measure. The Admiralty and Navy
Boards had already stated the abuses, and why
dittl they not remove the Delinquents, or take some
As the
steps during their tour in the last'Summer ?
the Bill stood now, every person who had, any
thing to do with Contrafts or Prize-agency during
War, would he subjeCt to the power of these
1713rnmissioners. There was not a Merchant there-
fore perhaps, nor a House in the City, that may
not he liable to have the whole of their affairs over-
h''uled by them. The Bill of the year 5780, re-
Cited abuses in the accounts of the Auditors of the
-"llposts, long known to the Public, and proposed
to, apply a remedy to them hut the Preamble of
t,nis Bill was general, and equally applicable to the
~,,treasury, or any other Department with the
IN'vY• The Treasurer and others it seemed were
to be arraigned for having some stubborn and old_
a'hioned notions, that this was a subje6i fitter for
a Committee of the House of Commons, and it was
very strange that such doftrine should have the
r.l',PPort of a Minister, who had been so long in the
i-tlair of the House, and Was so well acquainted with
js Constitution. He did not deny the existence of
ahuse, but no person would tell him how far
'ills power might extend. If no one was to find
testimony to criminate himself, thea effa e would be
bad as the other way, for the Com,nissioncrs
Pleased,
power to dire& their inqinries as they
Itrased, they may'be sometimes induced to select
confess
greatest Delinquents, who would have only to
less to secure their impunity, while' the punish-
ment might fall on Merchants, or other guiltless
Pers°ns remotely conneCted with them. There
an excellent principle laid down some time
since in one of the Coums, that no man ought to be
.„."'Peiled to give evidence to degrade himself, but
tins Bill
was altogether a departure from that
rinciPle, as
linquenc person could confess his own de-
without subjettinc, liimself to &grab-

the CHANCELLOR of th,7 EXCHEQUER
drew distinctions between the different Com Mi-
ssions alluded to—that of t7Bel, was a CoMMission
of Accounts, but that of 17Se, a CoMmission of
Inquiry like the present, wiiich had power to in-
quire, but none to punish.
Mr. R.IFARD saw no reason why the Report should
not now be re-committed. There was some apparent
force in the observation, that a delay of six weeks
might he no great matter in delaying the investiga-
tion of abuses which existed but for five years ; but
the delay was of consequence, inasmuch as it gave
notice to the delinquent, and allowed him a facility
to escape, and withdraw himself from punishment.
He believed the same powers were granted to the
Commissioners appointed some time since to make
inquiries in the West Indies, and the powers now
proposed were more for obtaining information than
the increase of any kind of jurisdiaion.
The House having resolved itself into a Commit-
tee of the whole House upon the Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served, it had been considered proper that there should
be two persons belonging to the Navy, and as the num-
ber was limited; one of the Gentlemen already nomi-
nated would, of course, go out, if another name was
to be inserted. The name of Mr. Hunter had been
inserted. He was a Gentleman of well known ex-
perience in business, and of diligence in the dispatch
of it. It was not however necessary that he should
have added to his present labours.any of the duty
which the present Bill would impose on a Com-
missioner ; for which reason he- should propose
that .the name of Mr. Hunter should be left
out of the Bill, and the namf... of Henry Ni-
cholls, Esq. be inserted in its stead. Mr. Nicholls
was an Officer whose charaler - stood as high
as that of any Officer in the Service, and he wads
the particular friend of Admiral LEV ESON GOWER,
who was eminent i n the Service. He said this
from report on which he could rely, but not on
any personal acquaintance with Mr. Nicholls, for
he had but once the happiness of being in company
with that gallant Officer ; but the truth was, that
he was guided upon this occasion by no other mo-
tive, than a conviction of the fitness of the person
to the station he proposed to fill. He therefore,
proposed, that the name of Mr. Hunter should be
left out, and that of Mr. Nicholls be inserted in
its stead, which, after a few words from Mr. MAN-
NING, was agreed to.
The Committee proceeded in the Bill.
Sir SIDNEY SM! ra proposed to include the Ord-
nance in it.

I.9rd tIAWKESBURY observed, it was com-
petent to any Hon. Member to Ort,pose any sub-
stantive measure with regard to the Ordnance, as he
might think fit ; but this was a- measure, the objea
of which was to inquire into the Abuses of the
Navy, and it was proper, in his opinion, that the
different heads of the Service should be kept distinEt.
This, after a few words from Lord TEMP LE and
Lord PRony, was assented to.

Lord GARDNER moved, thAt the Office of In-
speaor General of Naval Works be included.--
Agreed. e

On the Clause empowering the Commissioners to
examine parties upon oath, as to Abuses they may
have been concerned in, a conversation of consider_
ably. length took place.
Mr. STURGES, Lord TEMP LP , Mr. FON-
L ANQU E, Dodor LA\VRENCE, and others, obj,a.
ed to it, on the ground of its giving to the Commis-
sioners a power to call on persons, upon oath, to
criminate themselves ; a principle, which they
maintained to be hostile to the Constitution of Eng.
land.

The SOIACITOR-GENERAL, Mr. WARD, Mr.
JAR v is, and others defended it, on the ground of its
being absolutely necessary, in order to give efficacy
to the measure, and also on its not being ne“;
principle, but analogous to the power now H,
sessed by the CommissiOncrs of Bankrupt ; an,i
also on its being a condition in the Bill that no
man shall be prosecuted criminally for any thing
which he may disclose against himself on such exa-
mination.

Lord GLENBERVIE proposed to obviate al-
ways objections to the mode of examining persons
under the authority of this Bill, by inserting the
word " lawful" in the clause, so that then no ques-
tion could' be asked a witness which could tend to
criminate himself, such question being unlawful.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL would not objeft
to the introdudion of the word, since so great an
authority seemed to he impressed with the necessity
of it ; but he could not himself help thinking it
superfluous, since no Aa of Parliament conveyed
power to ask questions that were unlawful, nor
could have that operation, unless it specified what
the questions were.
After some further conversation, the introduc-
tion of the word " lawful" was adopted.
The only other material Amendments were the
omission of the words which gave a power to the
Commissioners to commit for contempt, and the
introduction. of words enading that confessions
on depositions of persons examined before the Com.
missioners should not be nude use of against them
in any "Criminal or Penal proceeding or Prosecu-
tion," except in cases of wilful and corrupt per-
jury, committed before the said Commissioners.

- The Committee having gone through the Bill
the house resumed. On the question that the Re
port should be now received,

Lord TEMFLE objected, that several Amend.
ments having been made, the Bill ought to be re-
printed with those amendments, and the Report
received to-morrow.

The ATIORNEY-GENERAL observed, that the
amendments had been very few, and such, as did
not require the consideration wished for by the
Noble Lord.

Mr. ALEXANDER then brought up. the Report,
which was read and agreed to, and ordered
to be read a third time to-morrow.

The Committees of Supply and Ways and Means,
were deferred till Monday.
,The Irish Sugar Bill was read a second time.
Mr. CORRY observed, that the English Sugar
Bill, which was of the same nature as the Irish,
being a stage.before the latter, he, wished the Irish
Bill to be now cominitted, in order that it might
keep pace with the other.