The Sun.
London, England, 1856-06-13 00:00:00

pupil teachers; and of establishing a lower class of certifi-
cates of merit to teachers, in accordance with the sugges-

tion of Archde•tcon Allen.

Air. lIENLEY said he could not consent to any re-
duction of the vote. He wished to urge on the Govern-
ment that they would take ,some means to reach that de-
stitute class from which the majority of the criminals came.
At present the Government had not turned their attention
sufficiently to that class of the population. When the
house first agreed to those grants in 1839, it was under-
stoo l that the widest liberty should be given to all sects,
but that there should be a religious face to the system of
education. That principle had been adhered to ever since,

and he trusted the Government would give the considera-
tion to the poor children, which was so necessary. Those
children had been overlooked, and thus much of the evil

which now existed had arisen.

The increase of education

in the last twenty years it could not be denied had been
very great. The increase of Government schools had been
very large, and of all others as large ; and therefore he was
not without hope that if the Government directed their
attention to fill up the gap in the poorer classes, the pre-
sent enactments would be found sufficient for.all purposes.
If they attempted any vielent change, they would for years
produce a worse system of education than that which at
present existed.
Mr. BALL thought those who advocated the grant of
the larger sum proposed ought to have met the arguments
which had been advanced by the honourable mover of the
amendment. The number of existing schools was more
than commensurate to the wants of the scholars. The dif-
ficulty was not to get schools, but to get children to attend
them. There was an indifference on the part of the poorer
classes to send their children to the schools, and the diffi-
culty they had to contend with was to overcome that in-
difference. As far as his experience went it was not the
difficulty of getting schools, but scholars. He deprecated

_ _ •
the extension of any grant of public money for education,
as tending to do away with private exertions on the volun•
tary principle, and the result, if the system were persisted
in, education would be destroyed. These being his views,
he should support the amendment.
Mr. MILES could assure the honourable gentleman who
had just sat down, that in the metropolis the schools were
not sufficient for the scholars. Mr. Cook said new schools
were required in every part df the metropolis. The same
want was felt in different parts of the country. He could
have little hope of a general bill on education being adopted,
and therefore they must depend upon these grants of the
Privy Council. He would therefore press on the Govern-
ment what he thought the Privy Council ought to do.
First of all was the necessity of every effort being made to
improve the education of the lower classes; and he pro-
posed their division into four classes—district schools, pau-
per schools, ragged schools, and then reformatory schools.
The hon. gentleman then referred to Mr. Tufnell's report
in reference to the Anerly school, which had been very
successfully conducted. He asked Government to take the
establishment of district schools into their consideration,
and said he knew of one district where there were 43,000
children, of whom 12,370 were workhouse orphan children,
and it was desirable those children should be separated
from the adults of the workhouse. He next referred to
the ragged schools of the metropolis, which were effecting
so much for the Arab population of the metropolis, and
were worthy the attention of the Committee on Education.
All that was wanted in the way of instruction was read-
ing, writing, and common arithmetic, with Scripture his-
tory. The next was reformatory schools, and assert pri-
vate benevolence, which had provided for 1,60 convicted
children. Having called the attention of Government to
these points, he begged them to consolidate, amend, and
extend the results of the Council on Education, and he
trusted when they had a minister for eduction in this
house they would have a better plan before them, when
the house would grant, no doubt readily, means for carry-
ing it out. •
Mr. FOX said the secular schools referred to were not
destitute of religious teaching, nor less than those which
were said to be based on religious principles. In many
instances, he ventured to say, it was superior. Charity had
its duty, as well as faith, an! there were many who con-
sidered that children should not be called on to form their
minds oa any particular religion at so early a date as the
advocates of the religious system wished. The present
educational system wanted strengthening with regard to
the indifference of parents towards their children's educa-
tion, which was lamented by many, and for which they
offered no remedy. He supported this vote, believing that
ultimately a general tax or local rating would be adopted
for education, which would cause parents to feel that inte-
rest in education that was desired, and send their children
to the schools. Education had kept pace with the increase
of population, which showed that the machinery in opera-
tion was not equal to make it so. In 1818 he found there
were 2,235,788 children of school age who did not attend
schools ; in 1833 there were 2,319,000; And in 1851 they
amounted to 2,764,000. It was the old story of the hare
and the tortoise, and they could not overtake ignorance
with their present machinery. He sympathised with the
capitation grant, which he suggested might bo increased
by prizes to the children for efficiency in the various
branches of education. Tho present system had failed
morally as well as numerically, for our gaols were filled
not so much by the ignorant as the imperfectly educated.
Mr. LIDDELL drew the attention of the house to the
salaries of pupil-teachers, particularly in reference to that
part of the country with which he was connected, viz., the
northern mining districts. The sum paid to pupil-teachers
was 101. per annum, which was not sufficient to induce the
best boys to remain at school, because boys of 15 years of
age could earn there by piece work more than was paid to
the agricultural labourers of Dorset and many other coun-
ties in England. It was therefore necessary that Govern-
ment should make the salary commensurate with the re-
muneration of labour generally. The grant was urged by
the inspectors of those districts for 1853 and 1851, and he
hoped it would be adopted by'tho Government, and an in-
crease of pay granted to them. Ho asked if the Commit-
tee of Education had received a memorial from the inhabi-
tants of the north in reference to it. The supply of pupil-
teachers there had decreased as the wages of labour had
increased.
Mr. CROSSLEY—There was machinery and money
sufficient to remedy the evils complained of, but they were
not properly applied—four-fifths of these sums had gone to-
wards the schools of the Established Church. The Non-
conformists concurred in opinion that religion should form
the basis of education, but they could not consent to any
one particular teaching, and a great injustice was done to
them in consequence. He supported the amendment.
Sir G. GREY then replied, observing that many of the
suggestions that had been made during the debate were well
worthy of the attentive consideration of the Privy Council,
and he had no doubt that they would receive it. One of
the most important suggestions which had been made dur-
ing the evening was that made by the right hon. member
for Oxfordshire that it would be desirable if possible to
extend the application of these grants to the schools of the
poorest districts. To some extent that was already done.
One of the grants that had swelled the present vote was ono
to an industrial school. Bat, although it was no doubt
desirable to extend the application of the vote to the as-
sistance of those poorer districts, still it was exceedingly
difficult to do so without defeating the whole principle on
which the present system was founded. • There were many
poor districts in which excellent schools had been now
founded; partly by the voluntary efforts of persons either
in the districts or in neighbouring districts. And it was
clear that if grants were made indiscriminately to poor
districts, without requiring local contributions, the effect
would be unfair towards those districts in which schools
had already been founded ; and it would, moreover, tend
to check that voluntary effort which it was the object of
the system to promote. 'With regard to another point, he
had to state that it was the intention of the committee to
adhere to the principle of confining assistance to those
schools which combined religious with secular education.
Whatever might be the opinion of individual mem-
bers of the committee, it was clear that they would
not be justified in depaeting from a principle which
he believed had the approbation of the country, and
which had hitherto been adhered to, without the pre-
vious assent of the Legislature. (Hear.) With respect to
the motion distinctly before the house, it was true that it
was in terms limited to a reduction of the amount of the
present vote ; the arguments by which it was supported
were directed against the present system altogether. He
hoped that the house would not therefore assent to it, and
he thought, indeed, that his hon. friend might well abstain
from pressing it to a division, since if he was willing to
concur in the amount of the last year's vote, there could
not be any question of principle involved in a somewhat
increased expenditure on behalf of an object which all ad-
mitted to be desirable.
No division was taken, and the vote was agreed to, as
was also a vote of 6,1811. for compensation to Mr. 'Boyle,
for the resignation of his office of deputy registrar justi-
ciary clerk in Scotland.
The house then resumed.
The Oxferd University Bill as amended was considered.
PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE asked the house to postpone
the intervening orders in order to go into committee on
this bill.
Several hon. members objected to this course, which
was very unusual.
The LORD ADVOCATE said he would withdraw it
for that evening. but he would bring it on to-morrow,
whatever might be the hour.

WEST INDIA LOANS,
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Sir J. PAKINGTON said this was a bill in reference to
loans made to West India owners, in consequence of the
losses they sustained by the hurricanes twenty years ago.
Estates which were in a state of groat prosperity when
these loans were made, were very much depressed in con-
sequence of the altered state of affairs, and be thought the
owners had a groat claim upon the justice and liberality of
the house. Ho trusted that the Government would not
accept from some coloniea repayment of these loans, upon
terms which they could not accept from others. He feared
that the Government was inclined to impose less favourable
terms upon St. Lucia thou upon Dominica. He had heard
that this inequalitr arose from some accident of difference
in the law of Dominica. He could not allow the bill to pass
without a protest against the harshness of such proceedings
towards the West India colonies.
Mr. T.,HANKEY pressed for an extension of the time
in which the loans might be repaid. He would therefore
substitute twenty years for ten.
Mr. WILSON explained the course the Governmenthad
taken with regard to the loans which were made in 1834.
For some time the payments of interest were suspended,
but in 1854 they recommenced. Whenever the commis-
sioners on the spot reported that the property had deterio-
rated, the commissioners in England had made an abate-
ment. He admitted that the terms granted to Dominica
were more favourable than those granted to St. Lucia, but
that had taken place with the sanction of the commis-
sioners. The commissioners both on the spot and here
had received the sanction of the Treasury to close those
accounts as speedily as possible, and if it could be shown
that in any case there was an injustice, the Treasury would
accept a compromise. At the same time be should mention
that in this proceeding the Treasury was acting under an
act of Parliament for the benefit of the public. With re-
gard to the suggestion of the hon. member for Peterbo-
rough (llr. Hawkey), he begged to say that he should have
great pleasure in complying with it after consulting the
come is4ioneri on the subject.
Mr. LABOUCHERE assured the sight hon. baronet (Sir
J. Pakington) that he hid done everything he could for St.
Lucia, although he had not been able to do anything for
individual estates, which had hopelessly and irretrievably
fallen. He had done all he could forthe colony by abolish-
ing the office of lieutenant governor, and placing the island
under the government of the Governor of Earbadoes, and
by various other alterations that would tend to the im-
provement of the colony in an economical and general
point of view.
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
ANNUITIES REDENIFTION BILL.
This bill was road a second time.
FOREST. OF DEAN CENTRAL RAILWAY
ADVANCE.
This bill, to advance NAM to this railway company out
of the Crown Revenues, passed through committee.
PEACE PRESERVATION BILL.
Upon the motion that this bill be read a second time.
Col. DUNNE objected to so important a bill being dis-
cussed at that late hour.
Airy ISORSALIN maid that as the portent bill oxpixod