The Sun.
London, England, 1802-12-03 00:00:00

val. What could ihe -the objea of this ? Cochin
was of no value whatever:as a trading place, and
France therefore can oily wish for it as a place
of considerable strength, and conveniently situated
for negotiating with the Country Powers of India.
—With regard to the disposition of France in the
East, pregnant and strong marks of it. were lately
to be found in the F.ench Papers,, which did not
conceal every thing to be aimed, at thstigersion
of the British Power in -India. Having taken this
general view of the Naval Power of Europe; he
came next to consider whether the. House, ought:,
now to confirm the vote of last night in silence, and
in ignorance ? In the Ministers we beheld a strange
mixture of acquiescence in the views of France, and
a seeming struggle against them ; and thus unin-
formed, the House was called upon, without a word,
to confirm the' disgraceful vote of yesterday. If
asked whether he objeded to the number of 59,000
men ? he would reply, far from ir, for he should be
glad if he could think that'even that was enough.—
But he wished to know what was the general use
of the vote ? By a smile which, he said, he ob-
served on the-Gentlemen opposite him, he supposed
them to think he meant to ask the destination or
the forces, whereas he only adverted to the animus
by which they were to be applied. In June last
they were called upon to vote 70,000 men, when
they were winding up the accounts .of the War ;
afterwards the Minister estimated. the Peace Esta-
blishment at, 30,000, and demanded at the time
only 27,000. What was the reason then of their
now calling for 50,000 ? They had, already been
in possession of that force, and yet had made no
use of it. They did not use stronger language
during All the late occurrences, nor did they
speak in
,a higher tone...of authority. He would
ask them, what use did they. intend to make of it
now ? Did they mean to go to war with it ? Per-
haps it might be answered, that they meant to in-
terfere; hut if that was now their intention, why
did they not' do it before ? Or was the vote to be
passed, that we should merely sit still in the man-
ner we had hitherto done ? He concluded; by ob-
serving, that though, upon the whole, he did not
objeEt to the vote, provided sufficient reasons were
given for it ; yet, if the House did not compel Mi-
nisters to set them right in the explanation they,
ought to require,, he should certainly move to have
it re-committed. • . _ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he' hoped the House would do him- the justice to
believe, that it was not in consequence of the
menace held out by the Right. Hon. Gentleman, in
the latter part of his speech, that he then-rose to
address them, nor did he think it necessary to say
Any thing to the imputation of disrespetl and con-
tempt, and a disposition to bring disgrace upon the
House. The Right Hon. Gentleman charged-him
with being silent ; he, on the other band, charged
the Right Hon. Gentleman with being present in his
seat last tight when the vote was passing, and of
not having said a single word relating either to his
own oblations or to the, silence of the Ministers.
In that respea he was himself no doubt an accessary
to all the contempt and disgrace he so much com-
plained of. Ministers, he said, had never expressed
any confident expectations from the pacific views of
France, and when it was urged against them that large
Military Establishments were
.not kept up, though
they themselves, on the first day, confessed the neces-
'sity of them, they answered to the untrue and unjust
charge made against them of having disbanded a
considerable part of the Military Force, that no
avoidable .reduction in the Regulars had taken place,
with the exception of some Cavalry, and that they
then maintained 50,000 Seamen, though 45,000 were
deemed sufficient in the first year of the War. In a
few days afterwards the necessary estimates were
presented, and on Tuesday last, though notices
were not considered as absolutely necessary, yet no,
tice was aCtually given, that the Vote required for
the ensuing year would be 50,000 Seamen, which
were moved for yesterday. He , had on that occa-
sion reason to expal, from the dispositions manifest-
ed by certain Gentlemen, that some questions would
be put and some discussion ensue, and he was then
prepared and ready to enter into any Debate or Ex-
planation, Which circumstances may call for. , Was
this, on his part, any indication of neglat of duty ?
Had he began himself, yesterday, upon any explana-
tiGns, he had reason to exped, that the Right:Hon,
Gentleman (Mr. T. GRENVILLE) himself, in quit-
ting the House, Would be the first to complain that
he had been unnecessarily wasfirg the time of the
House upon a thing that was not wanted, for that he
thought the vote, so far from being too large, was not
perhaps enough. In the reference made to the Speech
of i/63, His Majesty expressed his confidence in the
good intentions of other Powers, and the number of
Seamen voted was zi,oOo. After the peace of 1783,
the Army was first reduced to 83,000, then to
43,000, and afterwards to 17.000, for Guards and
Garrisons only. The reduaion of Seamen to 26,000,
at that time, he would not deny to have been justi-
fiable by the sense of security then entertained ; but
at the present period he owned that he should not
think himself warranted in an entire reliance on the
pacific dispositions of the French Court. For that rea-
son he could not have proposed any considerable reduc_
tion in, the Military Force last year. For the present
year the vote was for so;000 Seamen ; and in a very few
days a Right Hon. Friend of ,his (tile SECRETARY
AT 'WAR) would have to submit to them a proposal
for a much larger Military Establishment than per-
haps was in the contemplation of any Gentleman,
because in the present state of Europe it was thought
necessary to keep a greater defensive force than
on. ordinary 'occasions. He never yet, he said,
had any ,reliance on France, his- reliance was
upon security, and that security could only be
derived from a confidence of strength. The Right
Honourable Gentleman seemed to think that 'Mini-
sters should be compelled to give their reasons for
maintaining such a foice, He owned that he knew
of -no greater deference than what was due to the
authority of.that House, but he could not comply
with what was asked, at least Upon this question,
because he was not prepared to tell the relation be-
tween 50,000 men, and the present state of Europe.
The Right Hon. Gentleman' himself thought the
number required scarcely sufficient, but if want-
ed to find, some of the reasons for keeping up a great
Nava; Force, he- will find them paitly in some, pe.
collar Expedition France, for, instance, at rte.

sent employed a very rensidetable Naval rorce in
attempting,to reduce the Island of St. Domingo.
This made, it necessary for England to maintain a
proportionate force in the same Seas, but in order
to effect that objett, it was accessary to pre-
serve a greater force at home than would be
otherwiSe requisite, in order to reinforce occa.
sionally the Squadrons on the West India Stati6n.
Many of the ships on that station had alfiallbien.
a long time -at sea, and the considerate system-of
the Board of Admiralty was to relieve such vessels
from time to time in such a manner, as' to add more
to the comforts.and convenience of the men. For '
this we must always have a Home Fleet in a con-
stant state of preparation ; but still he wished more
to rest the augmentation on the broader principle
of the-present state of Europe, and the necessity
and expediency of such apowerful defensive system
as would place the Subjects of this Country in a state
of sectirity, and a condition to enjoy the blessings
of Peace. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, he
has extended his statement to a general view of the
maritime state of the different countries of Europe,
and a description of the dangers with which this
Country is threatened by it. Beginning his review
with Russia, he expresses' great concern at that
Court's
.shewing a disposition favourable to the
views of France. Upon that subjed I beg
leave to decline any discussion with him, though
I own, that I heard with regret and sur-
prize, such assertions respeding the influence
of France on the Councils of that •tireire.—
He goes to the Convention concluded with the
Northern Powers; but as he has deferred that sub_
jet to some future discussion, for that subjed I
shall take the liberty of reserving myself. I can_
not, howevers pass over what he has attributed to
my Noble Friend (Lord HAWK ES suRY),` of having
said, that the glorious victory off Copenhagen,
threw, difficulties in the way of the subsequent Ne-
gotiations. What he said was, that notwithstand-
ing the previous event of
.the Death of the Em-
peror Paul, and all the advantages of that Vic-
tory, never excelled in splendor of execution,
still the Negotiations alluded to experienced many
difficulties.---The subjed he next alluded to, is
the great activity prevailing in the Naval Depart
ment of Holland, where new ships are constructing,
old vessels repairing, and every exertion using to
put the Maritime Power of that Country on a for-
midable footing. But, considering its former great-
ness, how are its present efforts to be wondered at ;
or what cause of alarm is there of having, in the ,
course of the last War, lost 16 ships out of 41 they
possessed before : it is endeavouring toreplace that
damage 1”, increased building and repairing. The
same complaint would apply with equal propriety to
the naval equipments of any other Country ; but 1
confess that I should be disposed to view their ef-
forts with grief and concern, if they were met with
supineness and inadivity on the part of England.
t acknovrledge that the maritime power of France,
Spain, acid Holland Must; under the present circuin-
stances I,e considered as one, and trust that
,England
will take care never to view them in any other
light ; but the Hon. Gentleman is very much mis-
taken in. representing that the Navy of Russia, or of
any of %Ise other Maritime Powers, can in any' way be
taken a s a part of the force of France. With regard
to Porttigat, it is notoriously true, that a feegrant
insult w ss offered to the English Flag ;but that should
not be reken as a proof of design or premeditated
ill-disposition, for no sooner .was •a representation
made of it, but the Court of Lisbon, without the
smallest: hesitation, hastened to repair the indignity,
by sending all the :persons concerned in the insult
inrmedi ately to Lisbon, and took every step to afford
the mo st complete and immediate satisfaction. That
the sat isfadion was ample, must be evident from
the cir cumstance that the Officer himself was satis-
fied an d made no farther complaint, and We all know
that, individuals of that description feel with deli-
cacy :and extreme sensibility upon every point of
honour.' With regard to the Mediterranean States,
Mr. ADDINGTON proceeded to state that the
Righ t Hon. Gentleman was as defettive there as in
many of his other, observations, for the British
Fleet in that quarter was certainly at this time greatly
super for to any force that could within a reason.
able interval be pOssibly brought against it.—
" I'Ve have there," said he, " ten Sail of the Line
Unchfr the command of Sir Richard Bickerton ; arid
here I am happy in the opportdnity of contradicting
reports, which have been industriously spread abroad
by .aorne, perhaps, from their fears, and by others
possibly from very different motives, that the
French 14ad 27 Sail of the Line at Toulon, in rea.
diness tc, put to Sea. In contradiction to this ill-
founded Tumour, I can assert, on the authority of
the gall ant Admiral himself, that the French have
not at Toulon more than five Ships of the Line
ready fer sea4-aed that at Catthagena, there is
a still smaller number." He -denied his ever
having said, that we had obtained the Guaran-
tee of Aussia, for the mannet ip which arrange..
Tents ?ere made for the Government of Malta,
though tie might have--raid--that.. we had obtai:l-
- the guarantee of Malta,-(Mr. GRENVILLE
here acoess the table set him right by observing,
that he bad _not represented him as having made
such a s tatement in regard to Russia). In. order to
shew ti le nature of that danger represented as
threaten ing us from without,, he stated that at the
commen cement of the War the Naval Forces of the
three Pi 'wets were,
Franc, - - - . So Ships of the Line.
. Spain, in 1797 ' - - - 79 Ditto.
Hollai id 27, but having built 113
mot in the course of the Was,
the total was - - - 40 Ditto,

A mount in the whole to 199
—By t he result of our operat.'ions.in the progress of
the Wa r these were reduced to 123. The state of
the Col phined Navy at present was—Of the line—
France, 39 ; Spain, :68.:, Holland, 31.
3-01 the line, 196 ; frigates, 243 ; sloops,
Sec. 22 a—Total, 659. By this it would appear,
that ou. r excess over the; c.:otubined Navy was no
less thi in .6o sail of the line, exclusive of a very,
great s operiority of smaller vessels, The whole
result wias, that in the IVWditerranean we were su-
perior ; that we had the sa me superiority at home,'
and tha'; such measures had ,been taken by the pre-
sent Bo and of Admiralty, plat so.,rnoreships of the
line could be sent out immts.diately, and a greater
number upon any great euergency, Was this,

he askeci, suptoenesa of italotente on the part of
His Majesty's Ministers"?, sach a charge should
be made againstahetn, they, would leave.it ,to be an.
swered by the Rthish Navy. It has, however,'
observed he, been asked, *hat is to be the applica-
tion of this foree ? My reply is, to main,
taro Peace, if it can be . done with honour and
security, and if not, to be in a condition to
meet antsyattack the enemies' foteea' Wherever'
they are to be met with. This is the animus
.with which it is meant IQ be-applied,. to preserve,
as I said before, Peace with security an'cf
flour, if other Wise, to be enabled to meet and attack
any combination, without • any apprehensions as- to
whatever may be the issue. Let me ask, what-would
be the radical result of sustaining the Right Hon.
Gentleman's proposition' ; in my mind, he used
many strong arguments in favour of the vote. The
expediency of the proposition is evinced in the pre.
sent state 'of the Country. When I mentioned a
Peace Establishment of 3o;00o Seamen, I did so
in a qualified mimer, thinking a great redudion
necessary ; but tmable to forsee how much. This,
however, is not the Peace Establishment, and I will
add, that the amount of that Establishment may,
in a great measure be influenced, and depend upon
the disposition manifested in support of the present
Vote. Itt what I have already mentioned, I con-
ceive myself to have given a sufficient answer with
resped to the grounds upon which the Proposition
rests. If we compare the numbers voted in the
various years of Peace. since 1783, we shall find se-
veral of them, when, in proportion to the varying
aspeds of affairs, the number of Seamen was not less,
than what is required at present. The reason which
makes me most anxious for the adoption of this meaa
sure is, because I think it -affords the surest prosped of
preserving Peace, and should we be disappointed in
that, we might be prepared to meet any possible
emergency ; that if any sudden insult 'or -injury
should be offered to toa we should be in a condition
immediately to put out a great proportion of that
naval force, which never yet appeared upon the
ocean, without preserving out reputation, en-
creasing our power, exalting our 'glory, and
providing fur our solid interests.— He conclud-
ed with ob\erving, that he did not suppose there
would be one • dissentient voice upon 'this oc-
casion,• and if any Gentlemen should be disposed
to blame him for entering into a justification which
they inay deem unnecessary, he hoped they would
excuse him on' the ground of the imputation,/ which
had been made against him.
Mr. 'I. GRENVILLE. and the Cu aNCE.LLOR, of
the EXCHEQUER explained.
Sir SIDNEY. SMITH said, , he should not have
troubled the House, if the Question then under
consideration. did not relate particularly to the
Profession to which he had the honour to belong;
there were some observations upon this subjed
which occurred to hiM, which he thought necessary
to be stated upoothe present occasion. • He trusted
that the House would agree witia him in thinking;
that the Dock_yards of the Country should be in a
state of activity and readiness in case of emergency,
and that they should be properly manned, as well
as the Navy. It had come to his knowledge, as
representing a Cityimmediately-conneded with one
of the King's Yards, that many men had been re-
cently discharged from them, deprived of all em-•
ploy ment, and placed in circumstances of the neat-
est distress. When he knew the benevolent dis-
position of His Majesty's Ministers, and of the
Noble Lord who presided at the _Board of Admi-
ralty, (who he knew distributed large sums front
his private purse, for charitable purposes), he was
convinced, that they could not be indifferent collie.
circumstances of reducing such aanumber of men to
the greatest degree of poyeaty and distress. He
therefore supposed, that if more had not been done
for these men, it Was because the Public had not
provided the means. In, his opinion, it was per,
feetly proper to keep up the nornber of men now
proposed for the Navy,: or even a larger. number,
because ifs() many men were to be dismissed with-
out any kind of provision whatever, it was to be
apprehended that they might seek employment
from Foreign States. It was true, that they might
feel great rel.-yid:lnce in going into the service of a
Foreign„Power, particularly of a Rival Power, but
when men were pressed by dire necessity, it was
impossible to foresee what they would do, and it
was notorious •that Rival Powers would offer very
strong temptations to them to enter into their ser.
vice, In stating these circooostances,..te was not
attending to the solicitatiora of particular Indivi-
duals, because they might have voted one way or
another at the: Election : He' considered himself as
representing those. who did not vote for him, as
well as those who did ; and he had not undertaken
to represent them in the Anti-chambers or in the
Offices of Ministers,, but iteshe.House of Commons.
He could not but deprecate what had fallen from the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, towards the
conclusion 'of his Speech, with regard to a future
redudion of the Navy; on the contrary, he wished,
that if any alteration should take place, it would be
to increase, and not to dithinish the number of
men e and for this reason., because the fleets of this
Country could not he brought into a state of ac.
aS-Soon. as "..the armies of the Enemy. An
army was Mitch sonnet- put in motion, and could at
with greater. rapidity than a fleet, more especially
'in the present state of Europe, which had of late
been but One. great Camp, and almost all men were
exercised and trained to arms. One reason why he
was inclined to wish .that a larger number of men
might be employed' was, as perfect confidence he had
in the present MiniSters, that whatever force might
he entrusted •to their., hands, it would not induce
them to enter into a speculative War ; bdt
it would enable them to hold such high lan-
guage.'as would help them to,, preserve the Peace;
or at least give a longer and a greater chance of
preserving it. 'He wished to take this opportunity
'of observing, that a: very large number of men had
been discharged from the Navy ; and every body
, who knew any thing of the: commercial Navy
knew, that none but What were termed able Seamen,
could find employment ore board Merchant Ships.
' The regular answer given, when a Mao applied for
employment onboard one of them was, '' No
more Cats than catch Mic.c."-.---What -then, was a
• man to do under such circumstanceo he might
, offer himself to any of the King's Ships that

werefitting- oi;t, toot there Were sttla nurnYlers
Seamen, that they andel not take what v 135
termed an Ordinary S.earnan any more that, a tart'
chant Ship. Under such circumstances, a man
aj
turned adrift without resources, and Without a Pt':
fession. He knew this from experience, beau'',
hundreds had applied to him for relief, and he 113'
no doubt but that numbers had applied to other Ofisi
cerse who lnirtio means 'OD-reriF,TlFFrretail beyona
the day. Now, if the nutriber of Seamen to be ell-
ploxed svas.increased,.itewould afford _employme„"c
to numbers pf tliuse men. Iliete was another ch•
cumstance to which he 'wished to call the atrentiod
of the House., and that was, that some greater stiP;
port should be given, to men who had been wood,'
ed, and'who were unable .to get their bread.
suornspitili wasallowed
only t:),O7u
l. a?y
t-Penesaiorn,ers from Greenw'-
i"
H
which
was not
ni o
than was given to an ordinary servant,
also provided with food; but it was certainly 11°'
who‘n,are6
enough for a man who had lost a limb, and sf,ho wasi
therefore unable .to. work. Greenwich Hospital
was at present full ; but in his
.opinion, it would Wit
only be cheaper to maintain men-as Out-pensione drs
than in-the +instal, but it would -hare this"adi-e
tional good effect, that it would facilitate the.Pis.:'
ing of men, if it was found that
,those Wain li"3";
served faithfUlly and fought bravely, were eoshie°
to return home with a comfortable provision."'
Under the present circumstances, men were discos'
tented, though he was sure that neither the disno-
- df Ministers nor of the House was wanting-
to relieve them, but it, was necessary ma nit
general wish of the 'House and of• the Country into
some shape, ,to enable those men to Cease being 3
burthen upon their friends' and upon their Officers'
The reason. why_ he thought it necessary that 0°
N.lvy should be in• such a state as that it might be
promptly equipped for service arose from the rata'
bability
.of ;.4 renewal of hostilities in ca-e (4. sod-
den
.change in the Government of another u.
however averse the Government of that C. e:
might he at present from War ; and he was incli
to give credit to the assertions of those who had re'
cently been upon the Continent, and-had giien it 3'
their' opinion, that the Government of France;
was by no means anxious for the renevval
War. People of every Country Were, he believed!
now tired, were tired of uselessly lavishing •the
blood of their.fellow-creatures. It was undoubtedli
true that the Government of Franee, was a Mill'
tary Government, but. Military men- were atii{:ust
to obtain some respite after their labours in Ile,
country as well as in this.- But it was not °ll
their own personal feelings—that gO-17r—ned thenr/
but it was
.au aversion to see thousands of tile'
fellow. creatures killed in contests that decided nO
thing. Many of the French Officers with.
he had conversed agreed with him in this oFiniol
and had often declared to him, that they often. fan";
even victories to be painful things. He believed'
was the wish, it certainly was the interest of thc
present Government of France, to preserve Peace'.
and if we were placed in a situation to be read, t
oppose them with effet, that. interest. would ce:j
mainly be stronger. But that which' had hanPen
before might happen again; and it was knows rs
sudden changes had taken place in the Governipend
Of France : he had himself been present at tss'o,.'et
'those changes, and he declared that they rese-clb re
more the sudden 'changes of scenery' in a ,theacof
than any thing else. He had had an opportunitY
observing, when those great changes were prel'arifl'e:
that the Gaolers were also busily_ employed in Pifer.
paliogelodgings for additional prisoners. When `,
were asked whom they expe6ted, they answered t'os
did not know, brit that violent discussions were g°.,11,c
on, and they might have Carnor, or they
have other great men, hut they were sure to b'hre
somebody, and they were always sure to be rig be
They might not know the persons who might to
committed •to their, charge, but they VIICT surco,
have Some prisoners on the night they expeded 0„,
and this was particularly the case on the day "11l is
in their gibberish, they call the 18th Frottidor.r.cf...‘
was astonishing to see-with what ease 'and ioaio,„
ence events of this kind were treated in that Cileir
try ; men came forward with bloody daggers
hands, and- declared they were only the Ataorso,
those scenes, but were not either Authors.or M`jl
ote
gers. In fad, the whole seemed to theM
than a dramatic representation; they got LIP °ie.--
ever they thought might hit the popular r 11,99 of
whether it was the, of Czsar, the"
Byzantium, or the March of Alexander. B" out
they wanted to please particularly, they aw"(asion
of' their stock an old piece, called the Inv
of Britain, "which was always sure to nleaust of
These things had their effect, and • owns,
28,000,000 of Men, 409,000 could, by these n'
be persuaded to volunteer in
.an Invasion nfta,tles
Country, they might give us a greatdeal of trf:.t, of
though they could
.pot, ifour Navy was its as` is
readiness.. He confessed he should not ent if
• any thing like the same apprehensions of ":".0 fo',
she was confined within her 'widen! °I
thiS plain reason—Preparations for inva.sien j 0 nods
the Ports of France must be extremely linsiroo'.urthern
cularlyein any of the Ports opposite to_tbcesqn
eess e
Coast of England; on. account of the,snla' or
the harbours, and the want of a sufficient dePin4
water.. He had had art opportunity, from of
stationed a considerable time Upon the
.fin Chet
France, to make accurate observations
harbours, and he was enabled to calculate %v.'`
that c
taint that the greatest number of vessels 40, ate
-
leave any of these harbours at one time was
,'tiols.
that could only be done by the mechanical
of drawing them out from the piers..—And e'
ra-- re, 013
de„G' •0
number' could only come from Havre- ,
„leer
account of the depth of water-continuiing tide
that`harbour, where what was called tae 513_
ioco ;
35 rot
lasted three hours. But this sort of font %
to be dreaded if our Navy was in 4 statc°f r_uea
t, they
they might be destroyed if they carnetuosreser;
mighty even be destroyed in the harbours on el% limit
coast. Upon these grounds he should [l.,v_n
apprehension if. France. wase
extremely
ancient limits; bur- the case was
r_, possess'
when France, in addition to her own Po,r,ks
Ink
acti
ed of
those Holland. 'He did not 'lit becose 0134
France posses-sing the ships Of Hoilan°2,l
_Noy, b.U.5
AVoulti Only fend to increase. the Britly,.of seriou
subject- •IV
the possession of her Polls ryas" a nze rn udder). c
consideration. Suppose any s
confined witnir,
rent,

lir,t
had a
whicl
wouh
a"

se,,;

tiro
tr.
14,
ot
use

the
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ab,

to,
bo
the