The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-03 00:00:00

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at right hon. gentleman had avowed his ,it and
eferred resigning his office rather than have
those principles, or have them trampled on ;fee.
The high road to reputation and honour, in short eveiy thing
was before him, but he had thrown away all those advan- silt 4
tages, and had. left the Cabinet in possession of his inte-
grity and his honour. (Great laughter, followed by loud
heering.) If he (Col. C.) looked to the welfare of his
country—if he wished to see Christianity encouraged,
and religion upheld; if the only possible good-foie Ireland,
the only remedy for all its ills, was now to be demolished
at the shrine of clamour and the cry of agitation; was he
not justified in urging to the utmost of his power that con-
sideration upon his Majesty's ministers, and calling upon his
Majesty to exercise the authority of the protestant crown
of those realms, and give a distinct negative to such a
motion ? (Cheers.) He contended that the present was
of a more destructive nature than any other motion ever
brought before that house. ( Hear, hear, hear.) So •
horrified, so shocked was he at the course pursued
towards the Irish church, that he could not repress the in-
dignation he felt, or the strong terms he had used, and he
did it because he had an intimate acquaintance with that
church ; and if there were any evils in Ireland existing,
they were the persons who had held out the only
measures of progressive good to which the people would
look for enlightenment, for the introduction of moral
habits, and every thing that would tend to make the
people loyal and the government tolerable. (Hear. )
It was the most unjust thing to confound the innocent with
the guilty—the North with the South of Ireland. The
religion of the Church of England wherever it prevailed
produced peace, and where confusion prevailed- let the
strong arm of the law interfere to produce peace. His "
soul was full of indignation, and he could not pollute him-
self by voting for either of the propositions. (Laughter
and cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose amidst loud cheers. He
said he regretted as much as any man the separation that -
had taken place between his noble and right hon. col-
leagues and himself, they being men of acknowledged ta-
lent and unsullied honour. To have acted with such men, to
have agreed with them on general questions, and to have had
their co-operation in any matter, was undoubtedly a great
solace to him and his colleagues in their public course of
life. (Hear, hear.) And while he said that, the house
would give him credit that they would not have deprived
-themselves of their services, or placed themselves in their
present inconvenient and painful situation, unless they had
had a regard to principle. He put it to the house whe- •
ther, in proposing this commission of inquiry, his Majesty's
Ministers did not give an ample proof of their disposition ,
to carry out the principle of the hon. gentleman's mo- •
tion when the necessary information should be obtained?
He thought it would be a bad course to first of all adopt
a general resolution, and afterwards come in the course
of the next session and say that it was not to be ,
carried into effect. (Hear, hear.) The instruction
of the people of Ireland was not properly provided for
by the established church in Ireland ; and that being the
case, he thought the proper course for parliament to pursue
would be, viewing the question as an abstract one,
to send forth a commission composed of laymen, in
order to ascertain the facts, and upon those facts
government would have the power of bringing forward -
any measure they thought best, and parliament would
then be in possession of circumstances which would enable
it either to adopt or reject it. The adoption of that
course he thought far more preferable than twinge •
ing forward abstract propositions. ( Hear, hear, liver. )
He agreed with some of the former speakers, that if the
house had no confidence in the government then they should
agree with the resolution. If the government were distrusted. ,
if members had no confidence to place in them, then they
had better at once say, " Let us have the resolution—let .
us have a new Government in whom we can confide." If
the hon. member for St. Alban's adopted that principle..
then certainly he ought to press his motion. If he did:
not, where was the use of his abstract principle :
So far as he understood what a Government of the
present day was required to be, it must. be formed ef renew;
agreeing in principle with the majority of the House of
Commons. (Hear.) The lion. member for St. Alban's
called upon them to affirm a principle without saving what'
was to be done in reference to that principle. But let.
them look at the resolution. One part of it said that
" the Protestant Episcopal Establishment in Ireland ex-
ceeded the spiritual wants of the Protestant population,"
and another that it was " the right of the state to regulate
the distribution of church property in such manner as
Parliament might determine." Now, with regard to the
latter proposition, he begged leave to say it was perfectly
absurd to appoint a commission unless they allowed this,
and that it was to all intents and purposes admitted and
allowed on the part of his Majesty's government by such
appointment. His Majesty's government had affirmed
such portion of the resolution. With regard to the deeie,
ration that the Establishment exceeded the spiritual waute
of the Protestant population, and ought to be redeseeti, ho
thought that if it should be found, on inquiry, that the
religious and moral instruction of the people was, not pro-
perly provided for by the Church of Ireland—the only
ground on which an established church could he or
ought to be upheld—some measure should be devised
for better appropriating or reducing her revenues.
But he begged to say that, he, for one, was
not afraid of what might accrue from the inquiries
of the commissioners—he was not afraid of facts,
for he fully expected they would confirm his own views,
and substantiate the propriety of the course which his 11lese
jesty's Ministers had thoughl it their duty to adopt. ;40
did not, however, think it right, in the first instanoe, to
agree to a resolution pledging themselves to a oe.rtain title
of conduct in certain circumstances, provided they showed
the facts of the case to be of such a nature, and then to
have to ascertain what those facts really where. It ap-
peared to him that the better course for Parliament to
pursue was to appoint a commission composed entirely of
laymen, and this he considered the most valuable part of
their proposition ( Hear, hear), to ascertain the real facts
of the case, its real merits, and its true position, and then
that Government should introduce a measure, which, being
founded on practical knowledge, Parliament would not fail
to adopt, but which of course it would have the power
either of adopting or of altering, or of rejecting altogether,
as they might deem best for the general interests of the
country. As a pure question of Parliamentary and leers:
lative proceeding, the most simple course—the cesseee-ree
commended by common sense, was the one reposes) by
'his Majesty's Government. But the meeetten• had as':
sumed another shape, for an honomaitsle and gentile.
member ( Colonel Evans) said he was not satisfied a ith
a commission, because he knew not the actual state
of the Government—whether, indeed, there was a
Government, or, at all events, who were the indivi-
duals composing it; and that the commission was
the suggestion of two noble lords still in the Ca-
binet. ( Hear.') The fact, however, was the very
reverse; but, be that as it might, if the resolution were
passed, he did not see, even then, how the hon. and gal-
lant member could with safety confide in the Government,
after what he had stated. Leaving that consideration,
however, as reference had been made to the general policy
of his Majesty's Government, he would take the liberty of
saying a word or two on the subject. He certainly
sidered that the Government should be composed of a steis
scription of persons agreeing in their principles wish theSe,
entertained by the majority of the House (4f COMinons.,
This they undoubtedly had a right to reqqiee ; and if the
Crown chose to appoint persons who did not possess the
confidence of the majority in that house, it was most as-
suredly their right, as it was their duty, to express plainly
and forcibly, though respectfully and humbly, to h;s Ma-
jesty, that the Ministry was one which, as it could not
command their support, could never act beneficially for the
aleaceh'e to e
nation, and that they must have men on whose characters
and principles they and the people could cheerfully rely.,
Twit}
secured (Cheers.) But he must say, that havtainaeg dionnae
time and in
secured that point—it would be more consisten' %via soui.4
principles if the Government were allo‘e4e4iiviee
own mode of action—if the legislatnee
carry into effect
Ministers' discretion the mannee bringing forward eh it'
various measures. If Was any
was this, that they gt all others knew at
6- would be best able to
what mannee th
those measures, ' and to put into -•
• • , operation those
priuciples which were approved =
by the majority of that
house and the general sense P-
tue country. This-appeared
question of preciseli.th
Character, and he really thought
hon. gentlemen wo:iid 'attain their ends quite as soon, and
much more cenvenlently to all parties, if the course he had
spokes! Cof. Were pursued on the present occasion. But kv
bad hem asked what was the Government—ivhere was it
The Government was composed of his noble friends I.otebs
Grey and Althorp, and others, and was formed upon prin-
eipleti respecting the church of Ireland, in which the mai),
rity of that house concurred, and which he sincerely be.
lieved it would be wise in them to allow Ministers the time
and manner of putting into operation, lie would say of
this measure as he had said of past measures, and should
say of all future momures of reform, that the best way of
carrying them—the only way, so as to insure beneficial
results to the community—was peaceably and quietly.
hear,) It was his firm conviction, that if the
Crown,. the House of Cotnruons, and the people, agreed
generally in their principles, and resolved on any partio.ular:
measures, by setting to work quietly but resolutely, lii)99,
terltAtigilsly but firmly, they would in the end find cue, very
great difficulty in making those measures the It pf the,
teed (Cheers); but if, on the other hand, they placed
themselves in opposition to any branch of the constitution
unnecessarily, rashly, or on slight grounds, or .for tt ma ers
of
not be dou
satisfied bebtful import—if the Cern •
mons said they would
canee a Measure was first proposed and
carried in ancsther place—that .it must and should proceed
from tlemselvea—that they alone ought to originate it—
then he must say he saw great danger—he saw that the
peaceable workig of the Constitution to great and glori-
ous restelta would be fatally impeded. (Cheers.) And
this, of all things, he should deplore—of all things he
would wish them ate avoid, fully persuaded as he was, that
all they ease'sri possibly desire might be obtained to as full
aO. great an extent without resorting to means, the em-
ployment of Which might alone insure disappointment and
asts ( tleeee hear,) He thought there was no danger
vehteteyste of the people of this country obtaining all jest
an:d deairabee reforms, and that hon, gentlene n on the,
other fOsic at the house were too sensitive. Liberal pries-
cstOes were, in his opinipaes rrives.sjpg in the cQuutrl, auck