The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-08 00:00:00

SUN,

THE

from the power the priest bad over the weak, miserable
mini of the r oar mare and over the minds of his
lam) 51. d ii Attlee .110 1.;,1 the pus, et to
consign them to damnation. You could not reach that ,
power by Act of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) You might
print book after book, you might pronounce anathema after
anathema, but you could not relieve the poor man from this
fear in his mind, and it was the power the priest had I
which gave him real power, and not the operation of the
law. If they said they would make a law to prevent
persons on their deathbeds leaving property to priests and
bishops he would be the very first to assist them, but he
would extend it to all alike. He should fear a Nlethodist
preacher as much as Cardinal Wiiseman—he should fear the
Bishop of London quite as much as Cardinal Wiseman.—
( Laughter.) He would direct an Act against them by the
general name of " priests." but he would not direct any
against a Catholic bishop which he did not apply to a Me-
thodist preacher. Did the Noble Lord know what he was
about? Had there not been for the last half dozen years a
constant acknowledgment of the Catholic bishops in Ireland
by the names of their sees; and not only that, but had not
the Charitable Bequests Act expressly appointed a commis-
sion partly composed of Catholic bishops, and had not a
commission issued from the Sovereign naming those bishops
by the titles of their sees?—(Cries of " No, no.") Had
not bishops been named by persons in authority by the
names of the sees in which they resided, and were they not
recognized in Acts of Parliament by those names? Why,
there was a very stringent Act, which rendered it necessary
to record the name of every Catholic priest, and the name of
the person from whom he derived his orders, and table after
table had been filled up under it, naming the Catholic bishops
by the names of their sees.—(Hear, hear.) His objection to
this measure was, that it was a step backward in obedience
to prejudice out of doors—that it was a retrograde step,
made because of the feeling of Hon. Gentlemen opposite.
The Noble Lord could not be alarmed at the power of the
Pope in this country unless he was alarmed at the influence
of the priesthood on account of their intelligence, industry,
and continued application to the principles of religion.
There was something in the circumstances of a Catholic
priest coming into this country which exhibited Lim in an
exalted position. He came into a kingdom where he had to
meet great prejudice, among a people full of distrust and
predisposition to suspect him ; and there, though protected
by the law, he made no converts but by the influence
of his mind over the minds of others, arid could derive
no power but from his own industry. It was dangerous
to meddle with such a power, and all he would say
of the Noble Lord's law was that it derived its benefit from
its utter inefficiency.— (Cheers.) The Noble Lord had thought
fit to warn him not to have faith in what wai called philo-
sophy. If not, he wanted to know in what he'was to have
faith, for, in his sense of the term, to have faith in philosophy
meant to have faith in the strength of truth. If he was not
to believe in philosophy he had against the Roman Catholic
priest no defence whatever.—(Hear, hear.) -If the Noble
Lord said there should be no Roman Catholic bishop he im-
pugned the freedom of the Roman Catholics, and said they
should not have the comforts of their religion; but if he
meant they should not be called bishops of any particuler
place within the realm he (Mr. Roebuck) would not divide
against it, because he considered the measure utterly un-
worthy of a moment's consideration ; and looked upon the
Noble Lord as having, in vulgar phrase, " thrown out a tub to
the whale." The description which the Noble Lord at first
gave of what was necessary to be done somewhat staggered
him, for he thought the Noble Lord was about to yield to the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and to deal with the question in a
way that would be satisfactory to them. No such thing. The
Noble Lord simply yielded to the vanity of certain persons;
and if the Roman Catholics would follow his advice they
would say, " We do not care about calling eur archbishop
the Archbishop of Westminster—we will give him some other
name; he will still derive his power from the Pope, and after
your Bill passes he will have exactly the same diocese, ex-
actly the same power, and be will deal with the property
which you seek to protect just as he would have done had
it
never been proposed." Suppose that instead of calling him-
self Archbishop of Westminster he were to call himself Arch-
bishop in Westminster. Your Act of Parliament then would
not touch him. (Hear, hear.) But if the Act should be
framed to meet that case, be might call himself bishop of any
foreign district with power in Westminster (so we under-
stood the Honourable Member, but he spoke throughout in
a very low tone, and was occasionally altogether inaudible).
How would you get out of that? How, too, would you
frame an indictment under the Act ? and if it were in Ire-
land how would you try it?—(Hear, hear.) It was extra-
ordinary that the Noble Lord had carefully avoided giving
any explanation of the machinery of the Bill. The Noble
Lord said it was an offence for a Roman Catholic prelate to
call himself Archbishop of Westminster, but he had not
stated whether it was to be a misdemeanour or a felony—whe-
ther it was to be punished by imprisonment or fine, nor had
he declared how he was to be tried. Was there ever such
a meagre finale to such an overgrown commencement?
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord might as well have said at
the outset that all he proposed to do was to prevent Roman
Catholic prelates from using certain titles, and there an end.
The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Tuam had called himself
so for many years. Suppose he and his brother prelates
were to say, " We have enjoyed our titles for a long time,
and we will not surrender them at your bidding ; we will re-
sist and test your law and your machinery for enforcing it."
Suppose the Archbishop of Tuam were to write a letter to
the Lord-Lieutenant, signed by his title, and say that he
did so on purpose in order to try the law. How would you
deal with that case in a country where nine persons out of
ten were Catholics ?—(Hear, bear.) The Bill would, he
feared, be productive of mischief, not advantage—it would
cause excitement, not allay it. Carrying out his hypothe-
tical case, he would suppose that the Lord-Lieutenant of
Ireland took up the gauntlet which the Archbishop of Tuam
threw down. An indictment would, be presumed, be sent
before the grand jury, and then remitted to a special jury.
Conceive the state of things in the Archbishop's diocese
while the matter was pending.—(Hear, hear.) Remember
you had to deal with an excitable, a strongly religious,
and be would say a prejudiced people, over whom the
Archbishop exercised a power which to us was un-
known. (Hear, hear.) His influence was great over the
minds of the people, not only of his own diocese, but of
the whole of Ireland. Should the Governmest venture to
imprison a person who was sacred in the eyes of the people
of Ireland they would endanger the peace of the whole
country.—(Hear.) And why was this hazard to be run?
Here was England, whose fleets could sweep the seas, de-
claring herself insulted because one priest chooses to call
another by a long name, and to tell him that he had power
and jurisdiction over certain counties in England. And
the Noble Lord spoke of this proceeding as if it took away
power and jurisdiction from somebtidy else. Was the
Archbishop of Canterbury one bit the weaker because
Archbishop Wiseman existed? Had his temporalities been
touched ? Had his spiritual power in his diocese been
diminished? Was he not still the Primate of the Church of
England? Then, if the Archbishop of Westminster had not
been hurt by the act of the Pope, had the Queen been hurt?
Was not Cardinal Wiseman, although he called himself
Archbishop of Westminster, just as much the Queen's sub-
ject as before? Could he de anything now which he could
not do before? and if he should do anything unlawful could
he not be punished for it? There might be cause for dis-
satisfaction if the Catholic bishops were established here
in connexion with the State, as they were in some of the
colonies; but as long as the Roman Catholic system was a
voluntary one we had no more cause to meddle with it than
with a private club. If we allowed the Catholics to manage
their own affair as they pleased no danger would accrue.
This reminded Dim of something he had heard about Lord
Minto, which he would take the opportunity of repeating in
the presence of a Cabinet Minister. He was informed that
Lord Minto had received a letter from the Abbate Hamilton,
a Scotchman, and a convert to the Roman Catholic religion,
whom he knew at Rome, to this effect :—The Abbate Hamil-
ton said that Lord Minto, coming direct from an audience
with the Pope, told him that he had seen a brief by which
the hierarchy of the Roman Church was established in Eng-
land. Lord Minto said that the Pope had shown him the
document, but he (Lord Minto) told him that he had no-
thing to do with it, because with the internal regulations of
the Church of Rome the British Government had nothing
to telo.—(Hear, hear.) That was the language used by
Lord Minto to Abbate Hamilton, who, since the outburst
of puritanical spirit in this country, had written to Lord Minto
to recal the remarkable circumstance to his recollection.
To return to the question, he appealed to the justice of the
House, and asked whether the whole conduct of the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government had not tended to in-
duce a belief in the minds of the Catholics of this country,
that what was about to be done would give no offence.—
(Hear, hear.) It was useless for the Noble Lord to accuse
him of misrepresenting him, and to refer to his past career,
when he (Mr. Roebuck) pointed to his present acts. It was
just as if a person convicted of picking a pocket should al-
lege that he had borne a good character for twenty years.
In such a case the judge would say. " More shame for you ;"
and so he said to the Noble Lord. When the Noble Lord
turned tound upon him with his overwhelming sarcasm and
said that he ought to have credit given him for good inten-
tions, he would remind the Noble Lord of the old proverb,
which said that hell was paved with good intentions. A few
years hence the Noble Lord would bitterly regret that he
had yielded himself up heart and mind to t
of Parliament
control of an
ignorant multitude, and prepared an Act
founded on feelings of bigotry.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that he would not address a
bitter word to the Noble Lord although he could not divest
himself of a bitter feeling caused by the
.Noble Lord's ex-
citing the bigotry that had disgraced this country during
the last few months. Although the Noble Lord had proved
false to his name, ho had on the present occasion done wisely,
and even courageously, in preparing to undergo the ridicule
which would be heaped on him for having brought forth this
mouse out of a mountain rather than propose a severe penal
enactment. Of the Noble Lord's Bill itself he would say
very little. The Noble Lord, however, at the commencement
of his speech spoke of the Primate of all Ireland, the Rev.
Dr. Cullen, as an ecclesiastic who was utterly unacquainted
with that country. Dr. Cullen was for many years the
representative of the Irish bishops at Rome, and in that
position he was necessarily acquainted with every detail of
the Catholic Church in Ireland. At the period of Dr. Cullen's
appointment the intrigues of the British Government
had succeeded in introducing division into the ranks of
the Irish Church, and this division was strongly manifested
on the occasion of the election made by the parish priests of
the diocese of Armagh. The Pope, to avoid giving a triumph
to either party, appointed Dr. Cullen to the vacant see.
The Noble Lord thought that Dr. Cullen ought to have con-
sulted the Irish Government but he (Mr. J. O'Connell)
thought that he was under no obligation to take that course.
The Government brought forward the scheme of the Irish
colleges without consulting any of the Catholic prelates,
and that was no inducement to Dr. Cullen to go out of his
way to consult the Government. The Noble Lord bad
blamed the Synod of Thurles for having dared to express
their opinion on the education question ; but the fact was,
that: by their oath as bishops they were compelled to ex-
press their opinion on that subject, and they did no more
than express their opinion. They sought no endowments
for themselves, they sought no monopoly in the appoint-
ments to the colleges. All that they asked for was a gua-
rantee of the orthodoxy of the teachers in those colleges,
so that they might be assured that no infidel doctrines would
be taught to the Catholic youth under their care. The Noble
Lord had also accused the Synod of Thurles of interfering
with the question of occupancy of land in Ireland. They
did no such thing. They merely deplored the ruth-
less acts which had been committed by Catholic as well as
Protestants landlords, and expressed their deep sympathy
with the people under the miseries to which they had been
exposed; and he maintained that they could not have done
less in the discharge of their sacred duty. The Noble Lord
had referred to various instances of Romish aggression, but
he had not been fortunate in the instances he had taken.
With regard to Sardinia he had misstated everything and
bad totally omitted to mention the bad faith of the Sar-
dinian Government towards the Court of Rome. In 1841
a treaty was solemnly entered into between the Sardinian
Government and the Court of Rome abrogating certain lin-
inunities and privileges of the Catholic Church in Sardinia.
In 1848 the Sardinian Government came forward with
another proposition still further abrogating the immuni-
ties of the Church. The Court of Rome met it with a
counter-proposition, and it was expected that some
arrangement would soon be come to between the two
Courts, when suddenly the Sardinian Ambassador was
withdrawn from Rome, and the Sardinian Government,
otits own accord, abrogated the entire immunities
of the Church without any further consultation with