The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-09 00:00:00

wished to avoid anything like collision, and as liNdti not
consider vestry cess in the light of the permane pro-
perty of the cbtuch, he should support the concessions
made upon that head. He had now adverted to the prin-
cipal points of the Bill; it contained many useful regiesa-
tions, and he hoped that it would produce the efffeas
that were expected from it, and, above all, that it would
have the effect of extending the Irish Church.
Colonel EVANS had but one remark to make before
he gave a vote up,,n the Bill. The only reason Ministers
gave for the withdrawal of the 147th clause was that they
dreaded a collision with the other House, which fear did
not apparently actuate them on a late occasion, when the
affairs of Portugal were called in question. He would
vote against the Bill.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he had to consider whether
he should vote for or against the Bill. It certainly
contained one advantage—he meant its regulations
with respect to vestry cess; but then he was obliged to
recollect that the great principle was taken away, and that
though the Bishops were reduced in number, the people
were not by that relieved trom their burdens, and that was
what the people of Ireland wanted. As the great prin
ciple of relief was withdrawn from the Bill, he could not
vote for it.
Mr. HUME—Some Hon. Gentlemen said they voted
for the Bill because it tended to extend the Irish Church ;
now that was the very reason why he should like to see
the Bill thrown out.
Mr. STANLEY—The Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin is always taunting Ministers with the fault of
never wishing to relieve the burdens of the people of Ire-
land, and he says that they are visiting that people with
the evils of civil and religious persecution. Such a
charge he need scarcely sty was unfounded. He was
perfectly astonished that the Honourable and Learned
Member should stand forward and assert that the Church
of Ireland would continue to pay vestry cess, even
under the proposed alteraions. He was equally sur-
prised that he should say that he voted against the Bill
because Ministers had violated their promises. He would
not repeat the statements of Ministers with respect to the
principle said to be violated, any more than to say that
that principle nev, r formed a part of the measure ; and
that Ministers, over and over again, asserted that no such
principle formed a part of their Bill. For that reason, he
could not avoid contradicting any one who said that it did.
The Hon. and Learned Member said the only valuable
thing in the Bill was the clause about vestry cess, and that
it was a gratuitous insult to reduce the Bishops, and apply
the cess to the augmentation of small livings, and to the
building of Protestant houses of worship. If, in saying
that, the Hon. and Learned Member was the organ of the
Irish C Itholics, all he could say was, that there was hut
little of gratitude either in them or in their organ. Why
did the Hon. Member vote against the Bill ? To encou-
rage others in another place to reject the measure. He
had been told, he could not tell with what truth, that the
Hon. Member had said that he should oppose the measure,
in order to swell the minority, and, by so doing, encourage
an opposition to the Bill in another quarter. He would
caution Hon. Gentlemen, who had no view of creating
collision and confusion, to beware of the traps laid for
them by the Hon. and Learned Member.—(Hear.) He
would advise them to reject an association and alliance
that would not reflect credit on either party.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL believed that there was but one
man in that House who would have made the assertion

the Right Hon. Gentleman had just ma!e. The Right Hon.
Gentleman says, that some one told him that I stated my
opposition to the measure proceeded from a wish to cause
a collision between the two Houses of Parliament. Ido
not believe anybody told him so.—(Order, order.) At
least if any body has, he has told him what is untrue.
My vote would have a contrary effect to that attributed to it.
Mr. D. W. HARVEV was sorry to see that, in dis-
cussing the Bill, so many personal a!tacks were continually
being made. What had been said of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin cssuld ❑ot be true, as he had
denied it.—(oll, and a laugh.) The present Bill was
nothing like what the people expected trotn a reformed
House of Commons, and mithing could be more ridiculous
than the arguments of Ministers, who asserted, that al-
though the 147th clause—the vital clause—was with-
drawn, still its spirit was preserved. What he had to
complain of chiefly was, that the Bi!1 which was then
about to be passed, was not the same as the one that
Ministers had introduced. With what delight did they
and the country hail the announcement of the prin-
ciple, that Church property should be interfered
with by the Legislature ! Yet that announcement
was nullified by the abandonment of the 147th clause.
The Bill added to the means of the Irish church,
and what they had to expect from Ministers when
they brought forward their measure of English church
reform would be merely additional means to support it.
The property of the church was most unequally distributed.
and seven-eighths of the Irish people professed a different
religion. Could peace be preserved by the present tne
sure, and could Hon. Gentlemen take it as a set-off to the
coercive measure? But if Ministers wished to preserve
the church, they should not have meddled with it, but
have maintained it in its integrity ; and if they wished to
inoculate the Irish Catholics with Protestant principles,
a very bad way was to put out so many lights by stran-
gling ten Bishops. Many gentlemen in the majority of
that night would say, if questioned privately, that they
voted for the Bill because they saw an imposing and
stern front and aspect elsewhere, that they wished
to avoid all collision, and that Ministers were going on
gradually, and that they would do more. But when are
they to do more? When are they to be vigorous enough to
bear the threatening aspect of another party ? It would
be better to allow the whole thing to perish than to live
in this sort of hope. By the present measure they were
providing for churches, with but the parson and clerk to
attend them. Before churches veere built, people should
be found to frequent them. There should be no connexion
between Church and State, for it only tended to mar re-
ligion. If they wished the Protestant religion to flourish,
the Bishops should be turned out of the House of Lords.
—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The wicked should be
called from their high places. The period was not far
distant when an establishment more consistent with
Christianity than the present would be established in
Ireland.

Lord ALTHORP was somewhat surprised at hearing
the sentiments of the Hon. Gentleman ; for, if he did not
mistake, the Hon. Gentleman had, on a former occasion,
supported the Bid, and he did not conceive how that could
have been consistently with the opinions the Hon. Gen-
tleman at present avowed. He could not compr& end
how the Hon. Gentleman could ever have supported the
Bill, if he had entertained his present sentiments. To-night
the Hon. Gentleman had spoken out, and fairly said, that he
did not want a Church Establishment at all. With such
sentiments it was impossible for that or any other Bill pro-
posed by the Ministers to satisfy the gentleman. The
Hon. Gentleman would certainly, if be could, destroy all
church establishments. It was most extraordinary, if the
Hon. Gentleman had ever been favoured to the Bill, that
the omission of the 147th clause from it should have
wrought such a change in the Hon. Gentleman's opinions.
He did not suppose that the omission of the clause could
have made any change in the opinion of the Hoe. Gentle-
man. He saw that, on this occasion, the Government
was to be opposed by the gentlemen of both extremes—by
those who thought that the Parliament had no right to
meddle with the Church at all, and those who thought
that the present measure did not go far enough. The
Government was now to be opposed both by those who,
like the Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford, objected to
all reform of the Church, and those who, like the Hon.
Gentleman, desire to push that reform a great deal
further than the Ministers. The parties who were
entirely opposed to each other would unite to vote
against this Bill. That was, be thought, not a bad
compliment to the course the Ministers had adopted.
They bad displeased both parties, wiich showed that the
measure was neither imprudent nor unwise, and he hoped
that the majority of the House would support the Bill.
—(Cheers, and cries of " Question.")
Mr. FITZGERALD declared that he felt it his duty
to his constituents to vote for the Bill.--(Cries of ".Ques-
tion," and " Divide.")
The House divided on the question that the Bill do
pass—

Some discussion took place during our exclusion, when
;he House divided, and the numbers appeared—
Ayes '274
Noes 94
Majority —lBO
The Bill was accordingly passed.
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.

Oa re-entering the gallery, we found Mr. STANLEY
on his legs, explaining, that as the Bill for the Abolition
of Slavery was not quite ready, and as there were objec-
tions on both sides to reading it a second time so soon, he
proposed to give precedence to his Right, Hon. Friend the
President o f the East r
Indio the
Board
of Control, who would bring
forwardill on Wednesday. He should
fix the second reading of the Slavery Abolition Bill for
Monday next, on the understanding that if the East India
Bill was not then completed, the Slavery Bill should be
further postponed.