The Sun.
London, England, 1834-03-04 00:00:00

TITHES.

Lord EBRINUTON rose to present the petition of which he
had given notice, from the county of Devon, relative to the
present tithe system. It was most numerously and respectably
signed by the owners and occupiers of land, and tithe-payers of
the county. The petitioners complained that the demand of
one-tenth of the produce of the land, by those who contributed
nothing to it, was at variance with all the principles of justice,
and they earnestly prayed that the subject of tithes might be
taken into the serious consideration of the house, with a view to
their being permanently commuted. In presenting that petition,
he had borne testimody to the number and respectability of the
signatures attached to it, and he would further' state that it
had been agreed to by an overwhelming majority of the people,
and that the'sentiments contained in it were those of the nu-
merical majority of the owners and occupiers t f land in the
county. He used the word numerically because a small por-
tion of the great landed proprietors attended the meeting, and
he thought he might with truth say that a majority of those
great landed proprietors who attended the meeting
were decidedly oppased to the prayer of the petition.
It was painful for him to differ from so large a portion of his
constituency, and that pain was further sincreased because
those from whom lie differed were a portion of the inhabitants
of a county who had done him the honour to send him to this
house. At the same time he had never disguised his opinions
from them; he had from the very first been an advocate for a
fair and equitable commutation of tithes ; he had advocated it
because he was conscious that such a commutation would be
equally beneficial to the tithe owners and to the occupiers of the
land, and he was convinced that if commutation had taken place
many years ago much of that difficulty and discontent that now
existed on that subject would have been prevented.—(Hear.)
On the noble lord bringing up the petition it was read at
length at the request of several members.
LordJOHN RUSSELL said, as a member for the Southern
division of the county of Devon, and from having been re-
quested to support the prayer of the petition, he begged to say
a few words upon it. He agreed with his noble friend who
presented the petition as to the general feeling among the yeo.
manry of that county, from whom the petition emanated, which
was signed by upwards of 9,000 persons.—(Hear, hear.) He
had great pleasure likewise in agreeing that tithe in itself was
both unreasonable and unjust.—(Hear, hear.) There could
in his opinion be nothing more unjust, or more impolitic, than
to have a law which tended to discourage the cultivation of the
soil, and which interfered with that which ought to be the po-
licy of all good government, viz., the cultivation and improve-I
ment of the soil. Nothing could be more impolitic than to in-
terfere with the skilland capital of those desirous of improving
the land, and taking from those persons a great portion
—if not all—of that skill and capital—(Hear, hear.)
He considered, therefore, tithes in themselves as properly the
institution of a barbarous age—(Hear, hear)—and his only
wonder was, that it was left to these days to consider a remedy
for this great and oppressive evil.—(Hear, hear.) He believed
that the most perfect integrity, and a sense of fair dealing to.
wards the clergy, animated these petitioners ; and though he
had the misfortune to disagree with them in the conclusion to
which they had come, he believed in drawing that conclusion
hey meant to do full Justice to the clergy and the tithe.owners
If they had been led into what he considered a* error, they
had been led into it by the assumption made of placing the
proprietors of church property on too high a ground, and con-
sidering them as if they were the proprietors of heritable pro.
perry.—(Hear, hear.) Now, in his opinion, church property
was intended to be enjoyed and used for the public good and
happiness.—(Cheers.) But having heard this assumption put
forward, and having hoard it said that church proprietors were the
same as other proprietors of thg soil, the Devonshire yeomanry

were doing what was not unnatural for those to do, who con-
sidered church property like other proprietors. They thought
that while claiming only a part the church took the whole
profit, but if the profit were large they took a tenth of that
large profit, and if the profit were small, they only took a tenth
of that'small or inconsiderable profit. This reasoning was not
unnatural, and upon this they proposed a plan of commutation.
At this point he (Lord J. Russell) was compelled to differ from
them, and he did so with great pain from those whom he knew
to be honest and excellent men. He did not think, theretbre,
that the clergy being legally entitled to a tenth of the produce,
that this would be fairly commuted by giving them a tenth of
the rent. It was said by an hon. member for Cornwall, the hon.
member for Liskeard, who less then any other man followed
the popular opinion, that the rent of the land in Devon-
shire was not a third of the value of the produce, there-
fore, what the petitioners asked was that the legal right
of the clergy to the tenth should be commuted to a third.
He must say, having considered the subject both last year and
the present, and wishing as he did to see a fair commutation,
that I* did not think that an exchange for a tenth of the rent
would be a fair commutation. He would only say again that
he partlcipated with his noble friend Lord Ebrington in his
regret at differing from the petitioners. He, however, did not
find in the other counties of England that the farmers saw the
subject in the same light ; they did not come forward
in those other counties, declaring that this would be a fair
commutation, and as they had manifestly an interest in so
doing, he must conclude that the general opinion of the people
of England, was, that this would not be a fair commutation.
Mr. BULTEEL felt himself called upon to declare his decided
dissent from the proposition contained in the petition, because
in doiag so he concurred with a vast majority of the inhabitants
of the county from whence the petition emanated. I►i adopting
this course he begged it to be understood that he was not
arranging himself against the general tenets expressed in Ihe
petition, but he firmly believed the great majority of the county
were opposed to the propositions it contained, on account
of the deep conviction they entertained that the grievances
complained of could not be removed in any other way than some
perfect and decided remedial measure. He congratulated the
house upon the sentiments that had fallen from his noble
friend (Lord John Russell), from which it was to be anticipated
that some decided measure would be proposed by his Majesty's
government upon the subject, which would settle the point for
ever between the two parties, would remove all disputes be-
tween the farmer and the clergyman, all tithes on productive
industry, and would enable the farmer to improve his farm
without being burdened by the clergyman.
Sir W. CH AYTOR, in supporting the prayer of the petition,
expressed his surprise that the people paid tithes so readily as
they did.
Mr. F. O'CQNNOR observed that ministers had repeatedly
stated what they would do, but he would ask, in the face of
the assertion, what had they done? Why they had admitted the
right of the clergy to tithes, at the same time admitting that
they had no right to collect them under that denomination.
Mr. BULTEEL and Lord EBRINGTON said a few words in
explanation.
Mr. PARROTT said he begged leave to put the house in
possession of the principle upon which the petitioners asked
for the commutation, which had not yet been touched upon.
Before he did so he would speak to a few of the observations
which had fallen from the Noble Viscount opposite. He said,
that the petition was not supported by the great landed
proprietors of the county. There was no doubt thatthepetition
was not signed by the great body of the great landed proprietors,
but on looking at the signatures, in the very first page, he
found those of nine magistrates of the county ; so that though
the great body did not support the petition, it was clear that a
considerable portion of them were not averse to it, as, besides
those names to which he had already alluded, there were
many others that he recognised as being the most respect.
able—( Hear, hear, from Lord Ebrington)-mnd who owned a
considerable portion of the soil. Without in any manner in-
tending to speak harshly of the great proprietors of land, he
thought he could easily point out one very good reason why
their signatures were not attached to the petition. They were
almost the only class who were the great proprietors of the pro_
pert of the church.—(Cheers) They were almost the exclu-
sive proprietors of tithes, and of course were quite contented
with the system as it at present existed.—(Loud cheering.)
He believed there was very little doubt but that a strong
feeling existed against that system in Devonshire. He also
believed that the same feeling prevailed in other counties—in
fact, there was an almost universal feeling throughout the
country against the payment of tithes in kind—(Cheers)--and
every one now claimed exemption from doing so. But if the
tithe owners were to be paid in money to the full
value of the tenth of the produce of the soil
how could there be any redress of grievances ?—(Cheering.)
In place of a redress of the grievances, it would be an aggrava-
tion of them.—(Hear, hear.) If such was to be the measure
passed by the house, the tithe owner would have the whole pro-
fit of the land.—(Loud cheers.) The prayer of the petition
did not seem to be understood.—(Hear, hear.) What
the petitioner stated was, that seeing the great dif-
ficulty of the tithe question, they came forward in a
constitutional manner, topoint the way in which they thought
it might be, and ought to be, settled. With regard to what
they prayed for he believed there was some misconception.
What they prayed for was this—that the land should be valued
as flee from tithes, rates, and taxes, and that a tenth should
then be taken and set apart for the support of the church.—
(Cheers.) That tenth also to be liable to rates and taxes
the same as the other nine-tenths.—(Immense cheering.)
The petitioners prayed that there should be no commutation
of tithes until a valuation was taken of the net rent of the
land, otherwise the tithe-owners would be doubly taxed.
Some misconception existed regarding that subject; it would
be remove,l by impressing on the house, that it was the desire of
the petitioners to have the land valued free of a.l taxes, and one_
tenth then reserved for the tithe owners, and the other nine.
tenths given to the occupiers. This was a simple statement,
and set the matter at rest immediately.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He (Mr. P.) could not help reverti►►g to the original
state of tithes while on that subject. When a tenth part of
the land was first appropriated to the church, it was in a state
of nature—quite uncultivated. The tithes were not then so op.
pressive. They were devoted to four different purposes; the
maintenance of the clergy, the support of the bishops, to
the necessaries of the church service, and the relief of the
poor. Subsequently they were used for only three different',
purposes. When they passed into the hands of the protestants
they were wholly given up to one purpose. Thus they became a
burden on, and attracted the odium of, the people. It was im-
possible for him (Mr. P.) not to revert to that topic
when they were speaking of tithes.—(Hear, hear.)
Under all circumstances, he considered the demands of the pe-
tition to be most reasonable, they praying from his Majesty's
ministers no commutation of tithes, but, in a manner least fa.
vourable to themselves, and totally compatible with the subse-
quent arrangement, for a fair adjustment. They had been
most submissive to the law ; they did nothing but struggle
against a great grievance, and that in a constitutional manner.
They expected from his Majesty's ministers that the Reform
Bill would be productive of great benefit to the people. The
first and paramount object they considered to be the getting rid
of the tithes totally. What was the use of the Reform
Bill, tailless it led to such alterations as would remove the great-
est of all grievances the people laboured under—he meant
tithes. He would not occupy the time of the house any longer:
he concurred fully in the prayer of the petition, and he would
not have done his duty if he had not supported it with all his
power. He would beg to direct the attention of government
to one point ; the present was a golden opportunity to attach a
large body to them. If it was thrown away it might not be
easy again to have such another. There was not a single mea.
sure which could attract and fix the affections of the people so
soon and so firmly as that act of justice which relieved them
from the pressing grievance of tithes.

Colonel SEALE said that he had been requested to support
the prayer of the petition, and he begged to express his entire
concurrence in its prayer. He fully agreed with the noble lord
who had presentea the petition in the sentiments he had ex-
pressed, and he gave him credit for the fairness with which he
had stated the manner in which the petition had been got up.
He could bear testimony to the respectability and wealth of the
persons who had attended the meeting ; at the same time he
must say that the noble lord could scarcely have assumed, al.
though he had done so from a feeling of candour, that the
great landed proprietors were adverse to its prayer.—
( Hear, hear.) If they were, why had they not come for-
ward and expressed their disapprobation 7—(Hear, hear.)
They had had a fair opportunity of doing so. He dissented
from the opinion expressed by the hon, member oppo-
site, that the great landed proprietors were opposed to the
prayer of that petition, and he would pus it to the test in this
way. He would ask his hon. friend whether he could get up a
petition of an adverse nature ?—(Hear, hear.) If he could
procure 20,000 or 30,000 signatures in that county to a peti-
tion of an adverse nature let him produce them. He had
heard the expression " spoliation" app ied to the valuation
called for by this petition, viz., that the tithe owners should be
one-tenth proprietors of the soil, but he believed such a
charge was unfounded. For the last twenty years the
maximum of valuation was 2s, 6d. in the pound, and only 9 years
since, an observation was made that the highest amount that
could be claimed by the tithe owners was from Os. to 3s. 3d. in
the pound, therefore the charge of spoliation was as much on
one side As the other. Another charge was brought against
the landlord, viz., that the occupiers of the soil were not sq
much interested in that question as the landlord, who would
derive all the benefit from the commutation of taco, and put
the profits into their own pockets. It was very true that where
one farm was tithe'free and another paid tithes, the one that was
free paid a higher rent in proportion to the amount of the tithe,
and if tithes were swept away from the land rent would be
one-third higher in the market. He would not occupy the
time of the house further, but he hoped that every attention
would be paid to this important question. The • noble lord
stated it was Lis intention to bring in a measure at an early pe-
riod, which would be consistent with the wishes of ‘he country

(
house from former times of incum 4 secured in their
then possessions. An act was
__A the time of Queen
Mary and confirmed by the s, which secured church
property to those who then had been invested with it.
Mr. SANDFORD hoped that, in any measure that might be
' brought forward, no distinction would be made between the
tithes held by by impropriators and that which was in the hands
of the church, but that it would embrace all. If it was the in.
tention of the government to make any new arrangement for
Alin+ the payment of the church, that suggested by the petition pre-
sented by the noble lord would be, perhaps, a fair mode; but
the sum of 25., as stated in that petition, would be, in his opt.
nion, not a fair valuation.
Mr. BENETT agreed with the hon. member for Tipperary,
that the lay tithes were different from those in the hands of
the church, but he did not think that the state would act
fairly in appropriating the property of the church to
any other purposes.—(Hear, hear.) Something had been
sad respecting dissenters, of which body he (Mr. B.) had a
great knowledge; and he would say that he never met a dis-
sen er who entertained any idea of doing away with 'titles
without giving a fair compensation to the clergy.—(Hear,
hear,) That they were hostile to the payment of tithes there
was no doubt, and he (Mr. B.) was hostile to them. He trusted
that in whatever measure it would be introduced, the tithes
would be fairly and honestly commuted ; but for the
effecting this, the bargain must not be too high. Church pro-
perty was now a very hazardous species of property. The re..
sistance to the payment of tithes had lessened its value
considerably, and if it were offered in the public mar..
ket now, it would not fetch more than two-thirds
of what it would bring five years ago.—(Hear, hear.)
That circumstance should be taken into consideration in any
commutation that might be made, and for his part he thought
it would be exceedingly desirable if a fair commutation were
effected.
Sir R. FEEL hoped, in considering the question, they would
act with great caution and under the salutary coutroul of public
opinion ; they should bear in mind that those who were about
to dispose of the church property were either lay impropriators
or possessed of large landed properties, with a direst personal
interest in remitting these tithes--(Loud cries of " hear,")—
and if anything could sink that house in the public estimation
it would be by affording ground for the imputation, that in
disposingof church property they had consulted their own per-
sonal interests. He hoped the house would listen with
caution to any suggestions establishing a distinction between
lay tithes and those tithes which were paid to the church.
Every individual clergyman had a vested interest in the tithes
which was indisputable, but he (Sir R. Peel) put in another
claim in behalf of the great mass of the people of that
country who had a direct interest in the tithes, by
which they were entitled to spiritual assistance,
If the house deprived that class of their rights, for the pur-
pose of putting the money into their own pockets, they would
be guilty of an act of spoliation u hich would be fatal to their
characters.--(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") They might say
that a clergyman, possessing three or four thousand pininds
a-year, was paid too well, and under cover of that being too
much, proceed to make other arrangements relative to church
property. But he (Sir R. Peel) would tell the house that the
appropriation of that property to any other than ecclesiastical
purposes, was a spoliation of the-corporation to which it belonged.
they might make a present of it to whom they pleased, but
not to themselves. He put forward a claim, net only for the
vested interests of the clergy, but for the permanent posses_
sion of the great mass . of the people of that coun-
try, for whose benefit it was intended.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not at present enter into the question, whether there
shbuld be any other appropriation ; but under the pretence of
giving a portion of them, or the tenth of the rent to any
object, they should be aware that they did not, by making the
payment 2s. instead of ss. 0r.65., as it was reported they now
were, commit an act of spoliation towards the great mass of the
peopleof of thistith eso
country,rof b
wereut notwhowere
individually
deeply proprietors
e Trs
either
in the proper appropriation of this property.—(Hear, hear.)
He was anxious that the bill of the noble lord should br
speedily brought froward, and he sincerely hoped it would be
founded 'on the principle of strict justice, because whatevee
other effect might, be produced, if one effect was an act of
spoliation, he was sure not two years would elapse before the
same princicle would be acted on towards other property:
Mr. D. W. HARVEY wished to see the question of
tithes properly settled, and not to see them improperly
diverted, because whether they belonged to the church or to
the nation, one thing was clear, that they did not belong to
the landlords.—(Cheers.) He thought the country was
greatly indebted to the noble lord opposite (Lord Ebring-
ton) in affording gentlemen that opportunity of delivering
their sentiments—although they were crude ones—on a subject
which so much occupied the public mind. What the country
wanted was a correct estimate of the real value of tithes, and
then would come the question as to the mode of appropriating
them. With regard to the Dissenters, he agreed with the lion,
member for Wilts (Mr. Benett), that, no Dissenter of any re,
spectability wished to interfere with the existing interests of
the present incumbents.
That petitionn ought not to be called one for the abolition Of
tithes, but one offering an humble suggestion of the way in
which every person might help himself. The real design of
the 9,000 worthy men of Devonshire was to be relieved fro
the payment of 3s. out of every ss. they now paid, He would
do any thing with the five million which was value 0,1 the
tithes in England to the noble lord (the Chancellor t the Ex.
chequer) than to any or the 9,000 petitioners or any landlord
in the country.
fair R. FEEL and Mr. BENETT explained.,
Mr. O'DWYER casled upon the right hon. baronet (Sir It
Peel) in the name of his constituents who receives:, no
spiritual instruction from the church, to support him (Mr.
O'Dwyer) in relieving them from the burden of tithes.
Mr. CUR'FEIS said that his constituents sympathized very
strongly with the people of Devonshire, and were equally
anxious to obtain a fair commutation of tithes.
An Hosz. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, sup-
ported the petition, having been requested to do so by the peti-
tioners. He was sure that though the people of Devon had taken,
the lead upon this occasion, their example would be speedily
followed by the rest of the country.
Mr. BULTEEL explained.
Lord EBRINGFON, in reply, said that he must protest
against the expressions used by the hon. member for Col-
chester with respect to those petitions, and he would add,
that men more honest, and more incapable of being biassed,
by unworthy motives, id not exist.—(Hear, hear) There was
another expression, also, which gave bins great pain ; for an
hon member, whilst he admitted that the statements of the
great landowners werenot in unison with those ofthe petitioners,
stated that in their dissent they were actuated by their private
Connection with church patronage, or by their private interest
as lay impropriators of tithes. On their part lie (Lord Ebring-
ton) threw back the expression, and he begged leave to say that
they were as incapable as the petitioners of being actuated by
other than the most honest and conscientious motives in the
course which they had thought fit to take.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a petition from the Pro-
testant Dissenters of Frome.
Mr. FITZSI MON presented a petition from Parlmerston, in
the county of Dublin, for a repeal of the Legislative Union.
Alderman THOMPSON presented a petition from the Medi.,
cal Professsion of Sunderland relative to the Cholera.
Mr, Hun' presented a petition, against impressment oksea.
Alen, from Kingston urea Hull; Also one, onithe same. subject,
from an individual ca led George Charles Smith, a man wel.
known in the country ; as well as another from the Protestant
Dissenters.
Mr. BAINES presented a petition fem. the dissenters of
Greosely and Pocklington, praying for relief from the grie-
vances under which they laboured.
Mr. DOBBIN presented a petition from parishes in Ar-
magh and,Down, for the abolition of tithes.
Mr.TAYLEURE presented a petition from the Dissenters of
Bridgewater, praying for relief.
Lord AIOLYNEUX presented similar petitions from St.
Helens, West Haughton.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS presented a petition from the ratepayers
of Manchester, complaining of the election of church wardens.
and overseers for that borough, and praying for an alteratiOnt
of the law upon the subject.
It being a e'eloeit the SPEAKER then left the Chair,

and he hoped that such would be the case. He cautioned th e
noble lord, however, not to bring in any half.measure, for it
would meet with general disapprobation. He begged to give
his most decided support to the prayer of the petition.
Mr. WILBRAHAM was willing to concur in any measure
for the relief of the agricultural interest, but at the same tine
he must protest against any particular county dictating to the
rest of the country —(Oh, oh.) As to the exact mode of
commuting tithes, that mode which might suit the county of
Devon might be unjust to the rest of the bountry. It should
be left to the wisdoin of that Parliament in which the
people were fairly represented, and in which (a
far as regarded the other house), the clergy were also
represented. Although he agreed in the general allegations of
the petition, he protested against the particular mode of redress
being laid down.
Mr. DIVETT, having been present at the meeting at which
the petition was agreed to, and having been in the minority on
that occasion, was anxious to state his reasons why he dissented
from the petitioners. He fully agreed with his noble friends
as to the high respectability of the petitioners, but he must
say that most of the persons who assembled at the meeting
came there with strong opinions previously formed.—(Hear.)
The petitioners thought that from the plan which had been pro,
posed by the government, the farmers would derive no benefit ;
but he thought they would derive great benefit, for this reason,
that in Devonshire there was a great number of small occu-
piers and leaseholders, and therefore they would be greatly b.,-
nefitted during the continuance of their holdings. If was true
that tithes originated in barbarous times, and he attributed
their continuance so long to the moderation with which they
had been enforced.—(Cries of " Oh, oh !" and " Hear ") They
had also been greatly extended during the war, when the high
prices existed, and they had not been decreased in propor-
tion to the decrease in the prices.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted,
however, that the measure of the government would be pro-
ductive of much good, and that a clause would be introduced
for the redemption of tithes. He knew it was of great im-
portance that all the bickerings and heart-burnings between the
c ergy and the people should be speedily removed. As to the
dictation spoken of by the hon, member who preceded him, he
denied that any thing of that kind prevailed at the meeting at
which the petition was agreed to. He knew that the feeling
against tithes was stronger in Devonshire than in most other
counties ; and he should like to see the question settled so as
to remove all the existing ill feeling upon the subject.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he had a few words to address to the
house in consequence of some observations made by the noble
lord opposite (Lord J. Russell), both in that house and at a
public meeting in Devonshire. The noble lord, at that
meeting.—(Lord J. Russell—l did not attend the meeting.)
No matter, at some . other meeting.—(A laugh.) The noble
lord was reported in the public papers to have condescended
to notice so humble an individual as himself, and
also to have attributed to him (Mr. O'Connell) a wish
not duly to abolish tithes, but that he would support a motion
for restoring tithes to the original owner.—(No, no, from Lord
J. Rusiell.) It was so stated in the newspapers.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he did not know what was
attributed to him in the public papers, but he was glad to have
that opportunity of stating that he did not think that he had
said any thing resembling what the hon. and learned
member alluded to. The only thing that occurred to
him that he (Lord John Russell) did say was, that at
some meeting, speaking of abbeys and nunneries, he expressed a
supposition that nobody except the hon. and learned member
for Dublin wished to see them restored—(Cheers and laugh-
ter.) He said this in consequence of that hon. and learned
member having been represented at some meeting at Kildare
to have lamented very pathetically over the ruins of the once-
flourishing nunneries of that part of Ireland.—(A laugh.)

Mr. O'CONNELL said that the noble lord did him justice.
Wh'ate‘ier might be his speculative or individual opinions
upon the value of those institutions—and he did con-
sider them very valuable—he had never said even one
word that contained any idea of the transfer of that
species of property to the original owners, vested as it was un-
der several Acts of Parliament, and settled by a long course
of time. For himself, individually, he would add, that the
greater part of that property which he possessed was of this
nature. There was another observation of the noble lord
which he did mike, for he usedit in the house that morning,
viz., his attributing the origin of tithes to barbarous times.
They certainly did not exist in Ireland till they were intro-
duced by the English, so that the English ware the barbarous
bestowers of tithe upon that country.—(Loud cheers from the
Irish Members, and laughter.) If they could get rid of that
barbarous novelty it would be no small blessing.—(Hear.)
The noble lord had promised a bill to make some alteration
with respect to tithes; but it should be recollected that every
alteration was not an amendment ; they should see whether it
aggravated or diminished the evil, then eve, y one would concur
in it, but if it aggravated the evil, then it was incumbent
on the government to give up their plan.—(Hear, hear.)
They were bringing forward a plan not after speculation but
after a trial and a failure. It had been tried in Ireland and?:
' had failed, for it had aggravated the evils. Whilst the tithe
system existed the tithe-payer had a choice either to give up a
tenth part of his corn and potatoes, or to pay it in money. If
corn was dear, then. of course, his choice would be, pay it in
money, but where the corn was cheap and abundant, then, on
t..e contrary, it would be his choice to pay it in kind. The
peasantry in Ireland had very little ready capital, and
this choice was, to them, of no small importance.—(Hear.
hear.) The Tithe Composition Act not only took away the
choice, but it gave the clergy many facilities of recovering
their tithes which they did not possess before. It gave the
clergy a grinding power over the unfortunate farmer—it gave
him power to distrain even the growing crop ; and whereas,
before, the clergyman could enter the ground only once a year,
he was now enabled to came twice, and to carry away with
him anything he could lay his hands on.—(Hear, hear, hear )
Whatever was wanted for daily consumption the clergyman
came and marked far distraint,- and the poor creature was
thrust into gaol for daring to give a potatoe to his family. The
alteration, in his (Mr. O'Connell's) opinion, instead of being
an improvement had made matters worse. No good, In his
opinion, could be effected by a change in commutation. He
felt it to be his duty most solemnly to protest agairist the bill
doing any thing further than aggravating the mischiefs com-
plained of, as it gave the power of distraining without
that of replevying.—(Hear, hear.) And he theretore im.
plored honourable members, before they consented to a
commutation in England (he had already shown its bad effects
in Ireland) to ascertain whether it would be productive of good
or evil. He felt great delight that a petition of such a charac-
ter should have been presented from so great a county, and did
not consider that it had been at all disparaged from what had
fallen from the hon. member for Cheshire.

An HONOURABLE MEMBER denied that the question at
all belonged in any exclusive manner to the landlords.
The question wa:. no doubt, one of great importance, but
that was not the proper time for discussing it—the discussion
would be had with more advantage when the bill promised by
the government was under the consideration of the house.
Mr. R. TODD concurred with the last speaker—the discus-
sion would be of a more kgislative nature when the bill was
before the house, and would be attended wits real advantage.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that the plan proposed by the
petition was one of the most gross, and was tinged with more of
a character of robbery and plunder than any plan ever before
suggested in that house.—(Loud cries of " No, no.") That,
however, was not the time to take the measure into
consideration ; but he could not let the discussion close
without stating what his opinion upon the subject was.
He believed that when rent in this county was at 11., the
tithes usually averaged 51.—(N0, no.) He believed he was
pretty nearly right, but as it was only a hypothetic case, he
would take it at that rate. Then, if for those 4/. or 5/. they
were to give only 24, by anp sort of transferenee, undoubtedly
that would be a measure of gross spoliation. He denied, that
the people, as a people would receive any benefit from a trans.
ference of property, in whatever way it might be carried into
effect.

Mr. O'CONNELL and Mr. WILBRAHAM said a few words in
explanation.
Mr. A. BARING considered that that discussion was
partially unnecessary ; there was no general view drawn
up for the adjustment of that question. Various plans
and schemes were proposed, but they seemed to have
emanated either from the private opinions of honourable
members, or to have been only the mere instructions
of their constituents. His Majesty's ministers would do well
to take warning from the dissatisfaction that was felt through-
out the country last year, at the postponement of such an im-
portant question as the commutation of tithes. It was quite
impossible to do justice to the property of the clergy, and make
concessions to the people, without mature deliberation. The
question was encompassed with great difficulties; hon. members
should be expected to yield a good deal, and not be so unrea-
able as to expect perfection in all the parts of the bill that
would be subjected to discussion. The great evil attending
this question was, that hon, members were putting all sorts of
captious objections to the particulars of any measure when
propounded; yet there was no clear or distinct mode proposed
as a substitute for what was found fault with. It would 1?e-
-come the house not to irritate the country, nor to imitate them-
selves, by useless and premature discussions.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

TATTERSALL'S.

RIDDLESWORTII
Two to I offered Apt Mr. Gully's Victor, a'ld sto 2 agst either
of Lord Jersey's fillie;.

OATLAND3
Five to 1 offered, on the field.

- .
Mr. SHEIL was willing to allow the expediency of an im.
mediate pressing forward tu the termination of so important a
subject as tile cummutation of tithes, so that time might be al,
;owed to examine into the principle on which the alteration was
ipounded, as well as to the extent to which it slitudd be carried.
He was willing to meet the hon. baronet opposite on church
property. It followed as an irraaitable consequence that if thy.,
State originally appropriate a revenue to the church 1t vas in
the power of she State to release itself from that revenue again
without any spoliation. As to lay tither he would not touch
them. They were adistinct property, but the tithes which were
set apart for the clergy, tee state was justified in aßlyiur to
its .own by recurring to the civilized
to v., divl4;lo4z of barbarous
times. He was not for clisturbing the present incumbents.
It vas nti fair
*MN itlVtances were before the

The betting on this stake, without being by any means brisk,
was sufficlentla definite as far as the principal favourites were
conce tied. reat anxiety was manifested to back, and an
equally marked disinclination to bet agst Bentley. Ihe same
Gentleman who, a few days since, took 73, to I, was glad to
take half a point less, and offered to go on at the same price.
Nothing was done on Bubastes under 610 I. So little has he the
advantage of his South country rival that no one had courage to
close with an offi:r to take 6to 5 between them. Plenipo was
backed at 1104 to 1, Olympic at 17 to 1, and Glencoe at 25 to I.
Closing prices :-
6. to 1 agst Mr Watt's Bubastes (taken)
7 t., 1 agst Mr. Yates's Bentley (taken)
10 to 1 agst Mr. Batson's Pienipo ( aken)
16 to 1 agst Duke of Cleveland's -helalah
17 to 1 agst Duke of Grafton's Olympic (taken)
22 to I agst Mr. Gardnor's Comet (taken)
25 to 1 agst Lord Jersey's Glencoe (taken.)

OARS.
11 to 2 agst Mr. Walker's Cotillon
17 to 1 ago Sir S. Graham's Zi::inna
20. to 1 agst Mr, Vansittart% Slight filly (taken)

Twenty-six horses are
THE ASCOT COLD CUP.
Wt.:red for this race, which bids
fair to rival the Goodwo4 Cup in value and importance. The
nomination includes Ur. Watts's Rockingham and Belshazzar;
S.r Mark WocaVs, caTriarine ; Lord Exeter's Galata and Sir
Robert ; Mr. Rawl'inson's Revenge ; Mr. Stonehewer's Chan-
tilly & Mr. Wilson's Claret and other crack horses.
The St. Albans Steeple Chace takes place on Thursday week.
The entry closes at St, Albans on Saturday next.

Monday, at a parochial meeting at Ashton
Church, Birmingham, a most oturageous at ack was made
upon the person of Mr. N. Morgan, the vicar, who was in
the chair. An apple was fir.t hurled at him, and after..
was..a two atones ....mew hut larger than an egg, unlash
the most coarse and filthy epith. tto. Fortuna.ely toe Rev.
Gentleman was oni; .lighth'. hurt on the shoulder. A
'award of 80/. had Wtta offtred ter the apprelitnaiOn of
the parttts,,