The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-11 00:00:00

'GRANT TO MAYNOOTH.

Mr. SPOONER wished to adt whether the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer intended this year to propose a
grant to Maynooth.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the general expenses for
Maynooth were provided for by a❑ Act of Parliament
passed three years ago, and be was not aware of any
extra expemes which required to be provided for by an
extra grant this year.
JEWISH DISABILITIES.

Sir R. H. INGLIS inquired whether the Noble Lord,
in giving notice of his motion for the removal of Jewish
disabilities for Thursday night, bad considered whether
Hon. Members who had motions on the paper would give
way to him on that night?
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had not considered that,
but he was anxious to bring it on as soon as possible, as
the House had passed resolutions on the subject at the
close of last session.
NAVY ES rIM.ATES.

On the motion for, that the Speaker leave the Chair,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that, as the Chancellor of
the Exchequer intended to make alterations in his
Budget, he should move that no votes be taken
until the intended alterations were stated.—(Hear.)
In 184 S, the House would recollect, that after various
statements had been made respecting the estimates for
the Army and Navy, and Ordnance, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had consented to greatly modify the
amount of the expense. He did hope that a similar
course would be pursued on the present occasion. He
would only refer to the reports of former years, and
he thought that after the House bad heard the facts
which he had to state sufficient reason would appear for
an alteration in the plan now laid before them by the
Government. By a reference to those reports, he
found that in 1830 the Duke of Wellington,
the highest authority that could be adduced
on military matters, had for 138.954 men,
asked the country to grant 8,491,0571., less by
2,442,000/. asked by the Government this year, though
they only wanted 122,000 men. In the last year of
Earl Grey's Administration, in 1834, the number of
men proposed was 136 332 and the money 7,918,5931.,
loss than the money asked for this year by
3.015,000/. It was also worth while to notice, that in
1835, Sir Robert Peel asked for 135,8'20 men, with a
sum of 7,146,9521., being 3,787,0001. less than the
money now demanded from the House. He would
now ask the House to remember that 3,000,000/, was
more than the amount of window-tax and paper duty,
and went far to meet the liquidation of the income-tax.
He trusted that the House would never agree again to
the exorbitant increase which had been made in the
military establishment of the country. In his opinion it
was disgraceful. Talk of the Duke of Wellington's Go•
vernment, why that Noble Duke had set an example
to the present Government in the reductions he made in
the army, and no man in the kingdom knew better the
necessities of tiae country than the Noble Duke. The
Hon. Member c,nclutled that no supply should be voted
before the amended Budget was presented to the House.
Mr. HUME thought the House ought to have acme
explanation with respect to the estimates before they
went into a Committee.

Sir F. BARING said he should give the necvsAary
explanation when the House was in Committee of Sup-
ply.—(llPar. hoar.)

'The'SPEAK ER then put the question that the House
should go into a Committee of Supply on the Navy
Eitirnates, and also the amendment of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Lambeth.

Mr. WILLIAMS declining to press his amendment
to a division,
The House resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.
Sir F. T. BARING said, that when he had to open
the estimates last year he found it to be his first duty to
call the attention of the House to a vote for a large sum
for an excess of expenditure occurring in former years—
an excess over the votes agreed to by the House. This
sum amounted to 211,0001. This had been rendered ne-
cessary by the coerce previously pursued during several
years, but it was his firmest intention, in conformity
with the opinions which he had lung entertained, and in
conformity with the recommendations of the House of
Commons, so to frame the estimates as to prevent a re-
petition of such occurrences, and he hoped that that
would prove the last time when such a proceeding would
be resorted to, unless, indeed, under the pressure of ex•
Creme circumstances; for it appeared to him that no-
thing less than absolute necessity justified any excess of
expenditure over votes. Those gentlemen who took the
trouble to look at the papers settiug forth the receipts
and expenditure for the current year would find that he
did not call for a vote fur excess. A certain sum had been
voted last year, and the actual expenditure was nearly
400,000/. under that. Although the financial y, ar was
not yet comp!e:es and the EXilet, dot i had not
yet been furnished, yet he was enabled to
state that there was reason to expect a consider-
able surplus this year, comparing the expenditure with
the money voted. He mentioned that first, because he con-
sidered it to be of deep importance in a constitutional
point of view. It was most important that the House of
Commons should see what the full amount of expendi-
ture was likely to be. If they got the habit of voting
so much, and that the actual expenditure came to a
higher sum, and that arrears from excess of expenditure
had to be annually provided for, Parliament would
abandon its proper control over the public finances. Ile
repeated that he wished to mention this in the first in-
stance as he desired to call the attention of the House to
the modes in which estimates might he made up. There
were two modes of making up estimates.—(Hear, hear,
and cries of " Order.") Ile said he should endeevour to
make himself heard as well as indisposition would permit,
but he was labouring under a popular disease, which
somewhat interfered with the duty he had to perform.—
(Hear) There were two modes of framing estimates;
ono was taking a sanguine view of the subject, and fixing
the expenses low; but in two years afterwards the evil of
such a plan always became apparent. The other mode
was to state the expenses high, so as to leave a consi-
derrble margin, with an assurance that there would be
more than enough for the demands of the service.
The latter was the course which he had taken, and it
would, be had little doubt, be found that the present
estimate was larger than the actual expenditure would be.
During the last two years the actual expenditure had
been 700,000/. fot those two years below the vote which
Parliament had sanctioned, and., unless anything should
happen, and under ordinary circumstances, the actual
expenditure for the ensuing year would be within the
estimate which he now called upon the House to vote.
The first vote was the vote for the men. He should pro-
pose the same number of men as lest year. But the sc•
tual sum required for the payment of these men was
greater than last year, and he would explain the reasons
for this increase. With regard first to the number of
men, that question it was for the Government to settle as
a Government, after a full consideration of the circum-
stances of the time. But in that House it was extremely
inconvenient to discuss this question, because it could not
be entered into without raising subjects which it was not
well for those in office to discuss. The amount of naval
force necessary to defend Our commerce and our shores
determined the number of men required. Now the Go-
vernment were not disposed to look with jealousy to the
prod clings of foreign Governments, but it was impos •
sible to determine what was necessary for our own es-
tablishment without looking to the establishments of
foreign countries; and we licid a sufficient proof last
year that a galiane an able, and intelligent people, not
far from our own shores, had not by any means Ise-
glected their naval estehlishments ned their naval power.
And those gentlemen who were at Cherbourg last sum-
mer, and who partook of the courteey paid to Lnglish
visitors, must have come back with the conviction that
the French were not quite satisfied to rest their naval
establishments upon the Peace Congress (so we understood the Right Hon. Gentlemso). The estimates of
1835 and 1836 had been referred to, but they had al-
ways been considered as framed fur a particular occasion,
and were not estimates upon which the country could
permanently rely.
Mr. WILLIAMS—I referred to 1834.
Sir F. T. BARING—The number of men voted in
1835 and 1836 was 26,500. The last French vote was
for 25,000, and when the House looked at the greater de-
mand for the naval force of this country for the protection
of our colonies and cur widely extended commerce, as
compared with that of France, they would see that the
number cf men voted in 1835 would nos be outheivut I

---------------
when a (*weigh Power had voted 25,000 The ccmpari
son bet ,v, en the increase in our naval establishment sir.ce
1835 up to the present time, and the rate of increase in
be
the French navy during the same reriod, Ought to
s'ated to e House. In 1835 the expenditure)sl it will
on ac-
thcount of the Fret C 1 navy was 2,549,272/ ; in 18
4,284,9601., being an increase of 1,735,60/. Probably
those who referred to our estimates of 1835 as the stal-
dard would not expect to find that enormous increase is
the proportionate expenditure upon the French navy
With regard to the estimates for our own nary, the ex-
poises of the packet service deceived us. That large
expenditure was not included in the estimates of 1835.
The naval expenditure of 1835 was 4.271.6741. and of
1850, 5,598,302/, being an increase of 1,326,6281, while
as he had stated, the French increase had been 1
The fact that the vote for the wages of the men vies
greater than last year arose from several causes. Itt
the first place, some of the men were receiving higher
pay, ss in the Arctic Expedition, where the men *ee
receivingt double wages, and in some smaller veasels
,735,000/.
_,I ,)- were receiving an increase. There had been,
i ideed, a gradual tendency to an increased scale of Pol.
Another cause of the increase was the new cooge'
meet with regard to victualling. Last year he obtained
the sanction of the House to au alteration in tbe practice
with regard to grog. This alteration had led to an
ti°"l "x Filet., but it had had the effect of
h transferr"
,h
a charge which had heret ,f ,re belonged to te victual.
ing department to tho charge for wageee which UM
m•cmed larger than in former years. The liberal tom'
mot util 'ear t ion
changes,i or s
onepiri t
beingshad been accompanied with scree
ether, of more importncealnietehreeaysoette,f bl).3i3a.'g wind
ntehirrei
scale If v ettl3lllog to the navy. The result had bee-
a con-iderable improvement in the s) stem aYnsl3l,'
and ako in the vivallp, wh oh brought ohs seatl?e-
ntrti,uden nearer in both respects to the merchant service,
to the condition of the seamen in other nest
eo•
He sincerely believed it would be a great benefit to bad
m-rchant service to prosecute that system. II 'OO
been telt that this was a difficult question, yet t, t"°„0 el,
arrangement had been received in a friendly sPtr" j,
Parliament and also by those immediately conceree
(The Right Honourable Gentleman, who ',VI° ill.'
vary low and indistinct voice, was here agsured by tri
Hume, and other Members who sat behind him, teat
they "could not hear a word.") The informatioo
.nit;
had received from the commanders-inchief °lb
that they had reason to be very well sstisfied WI
ee
the new arrangements. They said that the stuounc L:
tsoehher punishments had dminished in con
far as experience had gone, therefore, the exPerien
esneet
of the Admiralty with regard to the new eating .4
relative to the grog was satisfactory. Upon the eating
next
votes, the Admiralty and the scientific branches, there
1:4
was no diminution. In the Admiralty there WO 2 rtlyice.
increase arising from the addition in the time of ser
...
Yet. this increase was in reality an advantage to the_ore_l_e
vice, because a diminution under this
b the superannuation of the older clerks. It would be Y,
y superannuating half-a-dozen clerks, to reduce the CO
_lsi
of this department, because these superannuations slutild
appearh among the civil allowances, where thei
arisingw
head arose le,°::
From
more than counterbalance any advantage b
m the decrease in the present vote. Veil few•o3 le
retired during the last year, and that was the °lcoPme
reason why the Admiralty establishment ha, b,e, pt
more expensive. The vote No. 4, for the Reg's°. oit
estimates,
Record-office of Seamen, did not appear in the Pred of
Tt-mates, having been transferred to the 13°3rbeees
rade. This vote would appear in the miscella
99t,
festimates. Ho now came to vote No. 6, a I:34'n6ther
or her Majesty establishments at homedin rr-bere
words, for the expenses of the dockyr. ` re.
was a reduction of 15,0001. in the expenditure in th.eYeen
sent estimate; and considerable reductions had
o°,7i,
going on during the last few years. The number, 'wits
soarers in factories, &c., including hired wOrligle:l°,),ef
,214 on April 1, 1848; on the Ist of March, 18ale "4
were 12,862, being a reduction of 2,352 hired labour
eq.,
in the dockyards. With regard to this pert of thes ~e,
pendituro he believed that unless anything turned
the Government would be able gradually to tnakeil°,,ixted
reductions in these establishments. But he tuce-se of
nbupind a greater saving with regard to the We- 1,8,
, 1 ing ships, and he would come to the votes 6;
.i3ins.
The 2 0, and 11, which related to the building °I ;eirad
.e reduction in these items for the year 1851 ,b ea
b1,25e6s -compared with the year 1848-9, no less ir
was.
5,2, ti. But the actual expenditure in the lett%
ewiti.
mates of
greater than in the votes, while LOP the
the!
Thee'isn irn suctionsthe charg fo _
wroeg up
0 for
third du 1 f
tiding ships had been u f . pwards e one b Joe
ear
w eneualcdle bi'n
tthhe last two years. The vote for stores
The ist-otehadwabseen for
a was muc
._„0„
less by 41,806/. then i r foe
last year, and the vote had been getting ,?fligle se/
a number of years. He should not
o'sl'—es in'
great number of .t)"0,
credit if it were effected by fearing the fittncs rea
cwoomreplaeste, but ho had reason to believe that
nailtha- es
well able to meet the demands of the toee
they needed to be, and as they. had been for a long t'
ale
A,arnhnldrvtea,onnyldrenduoctthioanvewhtiochhohamdadbeeenuperrected was
yearers.
waTshao reductiondead wsigohft,
or
h,,if.pay,
awo)or'ks. ju future 0
41,450/. in the "t° f°1.0." hi
steout 28,0004 The more ships there were in c° mm
on'i the fewer officers there were upon halfl6Yees; rai;
sign the
other hand, if there were few ships inic-t-ion 01
the half•pay would be larger. 1301 ad reoar-pdac..
t190,n059/ had taken place in the half-pay• an, this :-1010
fur was
gradually going on. The Me:tease 10 the Go,
; tv of the •
the packet service arose from the anxiety • won
vernment to give the ozurile f
means of additional co oosse 0
to the mercantile
the western coast of 1
the year made interest.
provision for the Post office --- 10
,_ and a
with the Cape
of e
t), America and the Broense 7 ,s fool
ost
,harovuig,
oh
this 4 5 , 0;1
earol.
bi , c t i
Ai
U d Hope, by steam-vessel sl.
Plymouth, H.. could not,
vrtlilse-refo-urier,edsuPloPrutietheth;sZ:
wade tcliore
hadlht the art of the public. That iecreased %Pend pot
required
be
for
Lha,:en p'ace fur the purpose of commerce. her por'
votes n
60 m:litary services for which the et ~,se
tions of the
in the estimates'
If
it the additionesretouPtPhre°sPariilaot:::
for the ensuing year as cornPireereeter
the
but past
was
181,093/, which would bale h' ell :isiont4
were not for the increase in consequence "darer
alLeratit
Cs he might have had &minutiae of a %par).
of a
million
compared a I --(Hear, ''
He had now beencon with
last
year..h3,__ltt, for too
_.,
yeses, and the Commi
itt:otewdowniidth t!;tAtabitalk"belsee!se;
payThoeicrileptrcloeiirt:::
the c ediet
rtrilogn.wrHouglyif he stated the result of his adwihiitiolte
was
he anxiousredoottoi odo soth,
ante thathat
bees
ratrigadeisboaot
because to
it was due to the House and the country ob.'''.
the real truth, as inaccurate reports had g°ractsef°ates in
(Hear) He did not look to the amount of est„--ril er
• They hadibnadthfesl.lceolll
any given year. The real criterion was the ae"-,t yes!
could not The actual expenditure for tbe 17°,. weak'
be given with exactness, because the Yea'were 5°
not terminate until the 31stof March; bot We tb°
near that day that he had no doubt he Bheuic4l:;) wsll
67739r65y25 The actual expenditure, °lB5O-51500E
7,955,0001.;
twi'heicheeteweals eaxp'r'nediliutcetrieon erof 1'5?2h13661
It he deducted a part of the expenditure .wheit.ooce'
been transferred, viz., for courts and Beitl &t rig'
92,500/., he found that the reduction etree‘e- 0 the
his two years of office had been 1,500, „,ho It _..,,,e
6,362,5001.; which
expenditure of 1850-51.—(Hear, he ) .1
ar.ooo/. es:, tiPe°o3°,
think, was not a small sum to have recilleerrde 11(jul;l'et
Mauch of the: public service.—(Hear, i,etr•) .`", befL3'
wish to compare himself with those who bad ectiononsicli
him at the Admiralty,
oftenretfheerrAeddtm
administratio
nof this Re (e' f r
but as the able and 'e;, Jaal
Graham), under ight Hon' Geatiewsu 11" e $
tmliirnGiheoaireerenbia):o:g eiinuistterationefodfestebrevAednie. oilsotgra:
'‘g
_,
who)tei w,
whole
:not.
af°l3ct,. baaeresqputevriirmtehdi tttahe dagtrteooaft compare
reputationp iSighehti sfloireo -vb.ii
,icierlecrio: :011,000:
In 1830 the nit
as tvraalt ieoxn
expenditure
d• fie eio?ltotion•
xen iture.
the Right Hon. Baronet's ad0:0.'5034.5
Right Hon,
the educe° flog
4,626,8001., in
nnthleman had
_r _ -yore, du•-,,,,
so that
bad deducted r aht.y h.et heeffee
whichi
dwuoruinldgthle Right liodn.en iture was 5,768,80014,10 a to
t
hosfdl r
'Paresided osier s;ie
chargested a r ewohuteothionhaodf I,l42oo°_,srred
been transl7-d he
la (Sir F. Retiree's) two years of offie.e,': 035;
also deduct a sum of 142,1021. for k--chorgeu
guard,upon which if he recollected rightly, ws.si,trtill
of
his the Customs. During the adasin sre
Right Honourable Friend there was et the
same
eiOrl of 1,000,000/. in the naval expenditure; ,trin'
timeh he would venture to suggest
wenftuhreyprhl2i4rdatteheexapbeunseditthuaret,vvtaa
to Wild °°
scot
bees, oar'
,ireselit
Admiralty the 01"0,0001e
Government had reduced the expenditure l's over the
and_ that during the two years he had presided
department the reduction had been grea „ears, -
ter tbigi sna
ever before been made in the previous twenU
,Hooeyyears'
Psss.
he believed that, by a little attention to the NW°
ins through their hands, they might be able tell:l,lo°4rd
yweiathrsto reduce the estimates still further. 1--bepto°
some degree of doubt at the atternets that; nagellt
recommended in other quarters to reduce l'er-I tilt'
and very
hkiisndßigsuddenly the naval force An atterePt ° that
ht Hon. Friend the present was made a few years ago, atiscdhtshe result vi-- t•%%.
the quer, when he was Sesh•reetary of t t
sisalbe die bad
cellor of the dad
and his defence h: Acirdit°l9ll' in a
able speech,
to defend the course of t
veryGoverriment they tbe
spent less, but more than he.was.edecteesor, sorot
navy, for the charge againstt itrhePrier then w°sealhen
theyhe had cut down the ravel force too inu„cli' tier'
the (Sir I'.. Baring) way Chancellorof the .o:ch.esioto
late Sir IL Yee;! - eatir° • 0
used to observe that their
ectotto
had increased much, and held out sonic exPilaronet
of reducingvery
came into them ; but when the Right n attempt`" 05
office, althoh he believed en, tur°
made to reduce the naval • • teop• a„0
estimates, it soon. the co,-,-,,
the oilier wa '
).-, and in 1845 they began again . tly
of a large i
nerease in the expenditure of the n° pall
thoughtwere these ups and downs in the finances of thet dol
of abuse politic.—(Ueur.) He had had no gre3eot he
, e,. s!-',. and had not gained mach reputation, st°
e,
10 neveu that those who came after him would 6„13 node'
a considerab:a reduction of ex cuditure had bets the
and that at the same time Pthe establishmeo's - oat°
country had been kept up in fll aril good
thels vavY
of efficiency as ever. The as
" '
administration of a nig'
had hu • i
been cent.;.:cted upon an economical, but o°,t e-- eestt
gardly system; and at the same time there °ool;
much improvement in the condition of the that 106
sailor—(Hear)—not a cheap process, but one ,is re'
no trifling advantage now, and would, he beadbelies,,
afterT he of guest service to the navy.—(ll°lll.'• 0
The packet service had also been extended to gl76ear)
cornmod,tion to the commerce of the countrY—T; been
m
—and those lines of comunicationt Friell
which ha' ri tee
preposed bof the Exch y himst,if and his Righ Hone ,-, aif,
Chancellor equer, When they were tee
fere rat offices, had been increased a„d extended ii,lliget
estimates he now submitted to the House, Tbe 'fiii-o.
ibleoen(,. , Baronet then concluded by moving that the "" y eaf
t men voted for the naval service o
the "
1851.2 be 39,000.