The Sun.
London, England, 1834-04-16 00:00:00

GOVERNMENT OF CANADA.

Mr. ROEBUCK, in rising to bring forward the
motion, of which he had given notice, for a select
committee to inquire into the evils which existed in
the form of government at present existing in Upper ,
and Lower Canada, trusted that the house would
permit him to state the circumstances as briefly as
possible. He would satisfy the house that the pro-
vinces of both Upper and Lower Canada were at ;
present in a state of revolution, and should endeavour
to show that this state of commotion had arisen from
the continuance of bad government on the part of the
English Government towards these colonies. He
should also endeavour to show the house that these
evils had arisen from the rash and inconsiderate conduct '
of the right hon. the ' Secretary for the Colonies.
He (Mr. R.) should explain to the house why it was
that he felt an interest in the subject, and wished to
bring it before their attention. He had lived a long
time, and was able of his own experience to form an
opinion of the importance of the subject to Eng-
land. The representation in the two provinces
consisted of three powers—the Governor, who should
bear some analogy to a King ; the Legislative Council,
which resembled the House of Lords ; and the House
of Assembly, which bore an analogy to the House of
Commons. Yet there was not any analogy ; for
the Governor was sent there at the pleasure
of the Crown, and was removable at the
pleasure of a Minister ; in fact, the Governor was ge-
nerally appointed for some services done, and de-
pended on the will of a Minister for the retaining of
his place. Mr. Fox was led by this order of things
to say that there was no such thing as an aristocracy in
Canada. The Legislative Council had nothing more than
a set of officers appointed to that situation to be remu-
nerated for some previous services, and were therefore
nothing more nor less than slaves of the Executive.
They bore not the least analogy to the House
of Representatives in this country ; in a word,
the government of Canada was a complete oligarchy.
Having given a character of the government, he would
beseech the house to attend to the character of the
people over which that government (government of
Canada) had presided. They were nearly allied
to the people of America; accustomed to see
a people self-governed ; governed by democratic
institutions, and in a state of great prosperity—a people
governed by machinery, more like physical machinery
than anything else, from the even manner in which all
its parts moved on. They were accustomed to
see among their neighbours ,t good administration
of the law, and a government performing all the func-
tions that ought to be performed by good government,
giving complete protection to persons and property,
and forwarding all essential matters necessary for the
comfort and happiness ui a well-regulated people.
Considering their condition, then, the house could
not be surprised that they, like the people of
France, should demand to have a Government of their
own. Was it to be wondered at that, situated as those
high spirited persons were, and stung to madness by
the tribe of officials in England, they should have
broken out into a state of open rebellion ? The first
cause of complaint arose from the manner in
which the government of the country chose to
furnish its civil list. In this country the executive
government was completely under the control of the
house, and this occasioned the necessity of the house
being called together annually for the purpose of
having the civil list voted. The people of Canada,
wishing also to insure a regular House of
Commons, determined also only to vote their
money annually. What was the consequence ?
The tribe of officials set up a loud cry against that.
They said that was not the way in which it was done
in England; they said the civil list was voted for the
King's life ; but the people of Canada contended other-
wise, and that was the cause of the outcry. He would
ask whether the people of Canada were not justified
in pursuing the course they did ? They had no other
means of insuring an annual convocation of their
House of Commons. This house, opposed to that
proper system, had actually sent out three successive
governments to fight the battle against it. They dis-
solved the house over and over again, and when it was
seen that the house had become more and more demo-
cratic, they at length seemed to yield to the wishes of
the people ; but unfortunately the Secretary for the Co-
lonies was this evening again determined to reanimate
the dying embers of the animosity that had pre-
vailed, and to open all the wounds of strife afresh.
The corrupt state of justice in that country required
looking into. In this country a man had the means
of at once contradicting a charge that was brought
against him, but in that country he had not.
Then with respect to the Receiver-General (and the
right hon. Secretary opposite 'Would at once know
what he meant by that), he was the receiver of the
money of that country, and it appeared that
he had never given any account to the re-
presentatives of the people. ( Hear.) After re-
peated evasions on the part of the executive, he
avoided the question, and gave no accounts whatever.
He was called upon to do so, and what was the conse-
quence? It was found the receiver-general had pocketed
100,000/. of the money of that country, and that he
was, in fact, a bankrupt. ( Hear, hear.) What was
done with him ? He was put into the legislative coun-
cil (Hear, hear, hear), made something like one
of our peers ( Hear, hear, and much laughter),
his estates were not taken from him, he paid about
2,0001. a year, from that 100,0001., which was about
one-third of the interest, and he lived to merit
the just indignation of the people. ( Hear, hear. )
These things called loudly for investigation, and no one
could wonder that so much clamour had been raised
upon the subject. This, however, was not all ; the exe-
cutive council, wishing to get out of the supervision of the
house and gain a revenue, insisted that certain post
dues had been improperly levied by the house, and
declared them to be illegal. More than this, churches
had actually been turned into barracks, and other
things done quite sufficient to excite the people. After
this came the administration of Lord Ripon. He
began to see the fault of his' predecessors, and by
causing investigation into the conduct of the Attorney
and Solicitor-General of Upper Canada, he had
created hopes in the breast of the people of that
country, that a change very much for their interest
was about to take place. Just, however, as these
hopes were raised, the administration of the noble
earl terminated. The right hon. gentleman opposite
had shown a damning proof of his incapacity to govern
the people of Canada, in having excited their enmity
instead of obtaining their good will. The honourable
member then read from a colonial paper, in which
were a variety of resolutions ; those which were num-
bered 48 and 49, tending, as he asserted, to show the
feelings of the people of the colony. ( Hear,
hear.) Those resolutions complained of the
course which was pursued by his Majesty's
government, and declared that one individual in the
government at least was cognizant of the state of the
colony, although they had previously entertained a
hope that government did not participate in inflicting
the wrongs of which they complained. The hon.
member went on to say, such is the language held by this
body of representatives—and such I take to be suite ent
proof; even or Asa, (g the extreme rashness and inconside-

irateness of the right hon. Secretary. But it may be asked
I what were the circumstances which have led to this deplor-
able result ? I will briefly state them ; and begging the
house to bear in mind the excited state of the people, and
their peculiar political and geographical position, I have
little doubt but that it will be immediately seen that the
••
course pursued was eminently qualified to lead to such a
disastrous conclusion. Before I mention the circumstan-
ces which, under the direction, of the right hon. Secretary,
have produced these results, I must allude to a circumstance
which occurred the year before last, and which, though in
no way attributable to the right hon. gentleman's govern-
ment, still served to exasperate the people, and to sharpen
all their jealousies. During an election for the city of
I Montreal, a riot took place, and three unoffending
Cana-
dians, persons totally unconnected with any of the election
proceeffings, were shot. by the military. Now such a cir-
cumstance might produce little sensation in Ireland, but in
any of the quiet and well regUlated communities of Ame-
rica, it was calculated to excite feelings of the deepest
sorrow and alarm. The people, generally, are very
; nearly connected by relationship ; they are all of a happy
and comfortable condition ; they are grave, sedate, and
live a peculiarly quiet and well-regulated life. Such an
event, therefore, caused regret, and spread consternation
I through every part of the province. It is not now my in-
tention to express any opinion as to the case in question ;
that is, whether the officers and soldiers were or were not
guilty of murder ; but I am exceedingly desirous of calling
the attention of the house to the events which succeeded
this calamitous occurrence, and entreating them to observe
how well calculated they were to disgust and excite the
people. Certain of the officers commanding were deemed
culprits by the great body of the people—and it was ne-
cessary to have them brought to trial. In that country
the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General act as public
prosecutors, and have or claim an exclusive privilege of
prosecuting all offences committed against the Crown. But
in this case it was notorious, that the law officers were sent
from Quebec to shield the officers—to use their legal skill
in extricating them from the difficulty in which they were
placed. Those persons who deemed the officers guilty
sought to have an advocate to aid the prosecution, besides
the law officers, thus believed to be partial ; this was re-
fused, and it is now said by this disappointed people (with
how much justice it is not now for me to say), that the mi-
litary officers were, by favour of the law officers, saved even
from trial. The grand jury (which it is asserted was
packed) ignored the bills ; and then the governor, in direct
opposition to the feelings of the people, issued a general
order, praising the officers and the soldiers who had
thus killed the unoffending passengers. The public
mind was wrought into a flame by this proceeding,
and the House of Assembly spent much time last session
in prosecuting a very minute investigation of the matter
—and the publication of the evidence laid before them did'
not a little tend to heighten the exasperation of the people,
and to sharpen their jealous feelings against the executive
and the judiciary. While the public were thus in a state
of fermentation from these various causes, the right hon.
Sefretary came into office. The first matter in which he
has given such bitter offence to the people of the province
is, that relating to the Address of the House of Assembly,
respecting the Legislative Council. Every person who
has reflected on the composition of this Council must at
once admit that it is in the highest degree mischievous and
absurd in its present constitution. For this there might
be cited many authorities, and among these the opinion of
a committee of this house, appointed to inquire into the
state of the province. There is also another authority, who
uses these words respecting the Legislative Council. [Here
the hon. gentleman quoted Mr. Stanley's words.] These
words, perhaps the house may know, were spoken by the
right hon. Secretary in 1828, while he was on this side of
the house. But I will not press this opinion. I certainly
do not attach much weight to it, and I dare say the right
hon. Secretary has seen reason on this occasion, as on many
others, to repent the harsh and careless expressions he has
used. But, nevertheless, he must not be surprised, if the
world, then misled, should now charge him with tergiver-
sation—with advocating one set of opinions when out
of place, and another when admitted to office. It did
so happen, however, that the persons best able to form a
correct judgment coincided in the opinion of the right hon.
gentleman. They also saw that the Legislative Council
was the bad and mischievous part of the constitution ; and
seeing this, and actually feeling its evil effects, the House
of Assembly sought to effect some change in the composi-
tion of this mischievous body, and in so doing be it remem-
bered they but followed the suggestions of the committee
appointed by this house in 1828. But now, Sir, it may
be objected by the right hon. Secretary, that there was
now no need to seek for any alteration in that body, as the
government had already, in compliance with the opinion
of the committee essentially altered the composition of the
legislative council by promoting to it various persons resi-
dent in the colony. I, however, will anticipate this ob-
jection, by asserting that this change was one in name
merely, and not for the better. The evils complained of
in the composition of the legislative council, were that, as
now constituted, that body had interests diametrically op-
posed to the interests of the people—that neither by birth,
by, predilections, nor by property, were they connected
with the people of the country, and the object of the house
of assembly was to make them so. The Government, it
is true, had promoted certain persons to the legislative
council, but the determination. of that body they well
knew would be precisely the same as -Deco r . But what
they knew, the people also knew—and knowing, were dis-
gusted; they saw that a trick was played upon them. These
people are practical and sagacious—they are a downright
and plain straightforward people, not to be duped by such a
vulgar artifice. I will trouble the house with the opinion of
the House of Assembly as to the supposed ameliorations of the
legislative council. [The hon. gentleman here read reso-
lutions 33, 34, 35, 37, 33, and 39.] In accordance with
the opinions expressed in this last resolution, the House of
Assembly proposed to the right hon. Secretary, through the
governor, that in order to learn what really were the wishes
of the people, a body of persons should be called together,
after having been elected by the people, in order simply to
determine this single matter, viz., what alteration they
desired in the legislative council. This plan was proposed.
Ist. To learn distinctly the opinions of the people—it hav-
ing been asserted by a certain party in the country that the
body of the people desired no change. 2d. To insure a
quiet and deliberate consideration of a very grave matter.
For, as the representatives in this case would be charged
with one matter alone, and acting under a very serious re-
sponsibility, it was believed that they would be the more
likely to give it a singular and complete attention. Now
this body, thus proposed to be called together by one per-
son or other, was unfortunately termed a convention. The
right hon. Secretary immediately called it a national con-
vention, and straightway there danced before his disturbed
imagination the recollection of the French revolution and
the disastrous year of 93—and Gensonne, Gaudet, and
Louort, Robespierre, Danton, and the revolutionary leaders
and deeds of that day, all rushed upon his mind, and
in an agony of terror and indignation he penned a pithy
despatch to Lord Aylmer respecting the proposal of the
House of Assembly. [The hon. gentleman here read the
despatch.] I would now beg the house to weigh this
matter rather more carefully than the right hon. gentle-
man has done, and endeavour to learn how monarchy and
monarchical institutions are to be destroyed by the simple,
and, I think, extremely proper method suggested by the
House of Assembly. It appears that the House of Com-
mons, itself supposed to be a democratic body, proposes
that alterations should be made in a particular portion of
the provincial government—what alterations it did not,
however, specify. Well, then, in order to learn what those
alterations should be, the House of Assembly proposes that
a body of persons should be elected by those most interested
in the matter, and by those certainly best able to judge of
the wants and wishes of the people—viz., the people them-
selves, in order to suggest the requisite changes. What is
there in this subversive of monarchy ? It was not sought
to make this body a soirereign legislative assembly—it was
not intended to supersede the Lords, and Commons—
but it was intended to give the imperial legislature the best
means of learning the wishes of the people_ and their actual
wants in the matter of government. This, I again assert,
Was a wise and considerate proceeding, and in no way de-
serving the rebuke and reproaches which the right hon.
Secretary too rashly hazarded. But let us suppose for a
moment that this plan was not a wise one, what shall we
think of the tone and manner of the despatch which con-
demned it ? Had the right hon. Secretary considered for a
moment, he must have been aware that the people of
Canada were not copying revolutionary France, but quiet
and well governed America. He would have remem-
bered, that every day almost, in the United States, bodies
are thus chosen to determine particular questions, and
the people of Canada sought only to follow a plan which,
on the opposite frontier, 'they saw pursued by the most
sagacious and best governed people on the earth. Would
he not (if acting wisely and calmly), even if he differed
from the House of Assembly, have expressed in very tem-
perate language his dissent—haves stated quietly his reasons
for dissent—have pointed out some other, and what to him
appeared a wiser plan ? But he did none of these things.
He at once, and without disguise, accuses a whole body
of representatives, who had been acting in the solemn dis-
charge of-a sacred duty, with desiring to overthrow the
constitution of their country. He accuses them of wishing
to introduce republican measures, as if by that epithet he
at once condemned the plan proposed, and then, without
further ado, he violently threatens them with a second
edition of his Irish Coercion Bill. It is idle to mince the
matter. We know very well what that round-about phrase
was intended to signify. It meant threats—threats of
changing their form of government threats of taking
away power from the popular branch of the legislature—
and why was all this angry language used? Simply be-
cause the House of Assembly had proposed a mode of
learning the people's wishes and wants, which was dis-
tasteful to the right hon. Secretary. Now, Sir, what
was the answer of the House of Assembly to -this rash
and inconsiderate menace ? Just what any one ac-
quainted with the people would have expected just
what any high-spirited body would have given—and, for
my part, had they given any other, they would have had
my contempt, and not, as now, my sympathy.—[The
honourable gentleman here read the 49th and 50th
resolutions.) But, says the right hon. Secretary, theybad a
republican intent in view; they desired to destroy the mo-
narchical character of the constitution, by proposing to
make the legislative council elective by the people, to
i make it, fact, similar to those republicansenatesjwhich are

to be found in the constitutions of the United States. Let
us learn what is the worth of all this outcry? I would
observe, however, for myself, by way of preliminary re-
mark, that I do not advocate an elective council—a double
chamber appears to me a clumsy contrivance—a mode of
increasing the defects always attendant on legislative bodies,
by multiplying the number of the persons composing them.
The council, in my eyes, is a nuisance ; and my way of
getting rid of a nuisance is simply to abate it ; in other
words, to clear it away entirely. I would utterly abolish
the legislative council, and set up nothing in its stead,
leaving the government composed of the Governor and the
House of Assembly. It appears, however, that certain
be-
lieves
ton.nermdoerwene
strengthened
score
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osyhlegislativeydominiontenhdee
mischief-making
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persons proposed to have an elective council, and hereupon
the fright arises respecting monarchy. Does any one c
oi sl
Governoremc at
ei maintained
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s
tincoe--smsalireyrwtooNosm.u.ld not be weaker in reality
oHnarowchtyh?enß,ultsihtmoualydbleikseaitdo,
allow two bodies of the legislature tobe chosen by the people,
and you make the people paramount. I ask, in answer to
this—do you desire things different from what the people
desire ? If you do, you make bad government and mo-
narchy in this case identical. I, having a better opinion
of the intentions of the English Government, suppose it to
wish what the people wish, and so wishing that it would
act in harmony with the people's representatives, whether
I
sitting in two chambers or one. Therefore say, this
supposed proposal of an elective council is in no ways op-
posed to monarchical institutions, and that it only seeks to
establish a good for a pernicious institution. The right
hon. Secretary,. however, was not content with thus de-
claring war against the Assembly generally. He took care
to quarrel with them in a matter peculiarly relating to their
own privileges. The House of Assembly is fond of imi-
tating the proceedings of this house, and in order to in-
sure the purity and independence of the members, it was
determined to take a precaution which this house has esta-
blished. In 1680 this house passed the following resolu-
tion :—" That no member of this house shall accept of any
office or place of profit from the Crown withont the leave
of this house, or of any promise of any such office or place
of profit during such time as he shall continue a member
of this house. Resolved, that all offenders herein shall be
expelled this house." The House of Assembly, in imita-
tion of this, resolved that all members accepting place
should vacate their seats, thereby making their con-
stitution in this particular similar to our own. Some
time since Mr. Mondelet, being a member, did accept of
office, and the house declared that he thereby vacated his seat,
and called upon the governor to issue a new writ for the
county of Montreal. The governor refused, and reports
his refusal to the right hon. Secretary, who thereupon sends
him a despatch. [Here the hon. gentleman read the de-
spatch.] It is quite evident that the right hon. Secretary
was egregiously in error when he asserted that the House
of Commons never arrogated to itself this power. I have
quoted this instance ; and this proof of his own fallibility,
will, I hope, lead him to judge of others in future with
something more of mildness. The tone of this despatch,
like the one I have already read, is in the highest degree
unworthy of any one claiming the character of a statesman.
This sneering comparison of the knowledge and prudence
of the House of Commons and the House of Assembly,
was more fitted for the flippant critique of a review, than
the grave document of a responsible officer : and this com-
parison, too, is made in favour of a body who passed, ne-
mine contradicente, the resolution I have quoted—who
expelled Wilkes, and who, twelve years afterwards, ex-
punged the record of that expulsion from their journals.
Surely the right hon. Secretary must study a little more
carefully the history of his country, and learn to be less
hasty and positive in assertion, when he finds that he has thus
grossly erred. But what say the Assembly to this? Their
answer is as follows. [Here the hon. gentleman read reso-
lution 63.] The result, then, of all this imprudence on the
part of the right hon. gentleman is, that the province
now is in reality without a government. The three bodies
of the legislature are at open war, and no communication
exists between them. In the executive the governor is
powerless, for no moneys have been granted ; and besides,
the governor has utterly lost the confidence of the people.
In addition to this, the judiciary is vehemently suspected
by the whole province ; so that, in fact, the administration
of justice may be said to be at a stand. And now, Sir, I
ask, amid all this confusion, what is to be done ? The
right hon. Secretary has refused the plan proposed by the
House of Assembly, and by his proceedings generally, he
and his officer, the governor, have put the country into a
flame—a revolution (I will not hide it from the house) is
at hand; and here comes the question—what ought this
house to do ? Is it not, I ask, high time that we should
carefully investigate the matter, and afford the people some
means of redress—the executive some means of exculpa-
tion ? Is it not the very height of madness to allow the
confusion to continue, without inquiring whether the
house is inclined to agree with the opinions which I have
expressed respecting the conduct of the home and colonial
governments ? I think, then, I have made out a sufficient
case for the house to grant me the committee which I ask.
I have shown beyond all doubt, that, whether wisely or
unwisely I shall not now ask, the provinces are in a state
nearly approaching to revolution. I have explained that
the cause of this great excitement is a belief existing in
the minds of the people of the colonies, that their
government is a bad one. I have shown how necessarily
they must be led to make comparisons between their own
condition and the happy stare of tue American republics ;
and that, therefore, it is highly necessary, if we desire to
retain a peaceable dominion, that we should give the
colonists every opportunity of expressing their complaints
and of seeking redress for their supposed grievances,
through the ready intervention of the Imperial Legislature.
On these grounds I say, Sir, if we be governed by the
dictates of a sound and benevolent policy, we shall un-
hesitatingly grant the committee which I ask for, and allow
the people to bring their complaints before us in a direct
elsea n d
ts
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ht fto
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na r. ds me
earne nt a
re r I
y.
may
shope,ay
etnh etrheifso re,
occasion, wh ate whatever
will not oppose the resolution with which I intend to con-
clude. Let him recollect that the great republic of
America, with her swarming citizens, adventurous, wary,
and sagacious, is the close neighbour of our Canadian sub-
jects; that thirteen millions of enthusiastic republicans
will watch with intense interest, and with selfish views,
any dispute that takes place between the colonies and the
mother country. Let him also be certain, that if any
rupture takes place between us, the colonists will ask, and
will indubitably receive, assistance from their all-powerful
neighbours. And on what terms will that assistance be
granted? But on one only—that the Canadians become
part of the great Federal Republic. And when this event
shall take place, who is there that on surveying the vast
possessions of this already but too formidable power, but
will tremble for the fate of England? From the North
Pole to the sea of Mexico—from the Atlantic to the Pa-
cific—will her gigantic territories extend. With a coast
unequalled in the whole habitable globe—with wise and
beneficent institutions—with a well-instructed and saga-
cious people, where shall we fix the limits of her power—
where find a check to her overwhelming force ? The
fleets of England will dwindle into insignificance—her
naval supremacy will shrink into obedient servitude to her
Trans-Atlantic offspring. The day is not far distant
which will see this prophecy fulfilled, if we rashly drive
into rebellion the provinces of Canada. If we yield to
their wishes, on the other hand, we may bind them to us
by the gentle but firm bonds of friendship—we may foster
them by time into an opposing power to the giant strength
of America, and may erect in the more northern territories
of that happy Continent a rival to the United States in
force—in commerce—and in happiness. Gentle treatment
—wise conciliation—will effect this. Any rash and impetuous
contempt of their desires will revive the disastrous days of
1774, and the colonies now, as then, will, with arms in
their hands, at once and for ever proclaim themselves in-
dependent of our dominion. Woe to that minister who
leads us to this result. The hon. gentleman was loudly
cmhoetein.
roed, and concluded by repeating the words of his

On the question being put,
Mr. HUME and Mr. O'CONNELL rose together, but
we understood the latter gentleman to second the motion,
which he did without comment.
' " '

Mr. STANLEY immediately rose and said, that in pre-
senting himself to the house, he felt himself called upon in
the first place to return thanks to the hon. gentleman who
hadpreceded him—first, for the advice which he had so fully
and gratuitously tendered ; and secondly, for giving him
an opportunity of bringing under the consideration of the
house, not the constitution, but the present condition of
our North American provinces. He (Mr. Stanley) was
not aware the observations of the hon. gentleman bore out
the notice of his original motion, for that motion was for
inquiry into the constitution, whereas he proceeded to en-
large upon what he considered the practical evils of the
system under which the Canadas were governed. The
documents he had quoted had not rendered his statements
perfectly intelligible. He had not entered into the present
state of the two provinces, the entire of his documents and
allegations referred only to one province, and not to the
other, which was in a state of the greatest repose and tran-
quillity. (Hear, hear.) It was perfectly in the recollec-
tion of the house, that Mr. Mackenzie had come to this
country to complain of grievances under which it was alleged
the province from which he was deputed was labouring. He
had made charges, and submitted documents to substan-
tiate them. Now, he (Mr. Stanley) would refer to a de-
spatch of his noble friend, whom he had succeeded in hold-
ing the Seals of the Golonial-office, which was the answer
made to that gentleman's statements. He had a copy of
that despatch with him, but from the multiplicity of papers
in his desk; he would have to detain the house a few
moments in procuring it. Mr. Stanley having read the
Earl of Ripon's despatch, said his noble friend declared that
Mr. Mackenzie had concluded his papers by declaring that
the continuation of the present system would bring on
bloodshed and civil war, and would abolish all the pro-
tection given to property, and would ultimately lead to a
dissolution of the connection between the mother country
and Canada. Whatever might be the excesses to which
the people of Canada might be led by a continued and per-
severing system of bad Government, he (Mr. Stanley )
would not adopt the injurious opinion formed and promul-
gated by Mr. Mackenzie in regard to the people of Upper
Canada. He would reject as a libel the supposition that
the inhabitants of that colony would violate the allegiance
and fidelity which they had sworn to observe towards their

King. (Hear, hear, hear.) He would not adopt a suppo-
sition so injurious to the colony, merely because the hon•
member differed from that opinion, and adopted that of a
far less numerous portion of the House of Assembly and of
the people of the colony. (Hear, hear.) In answer to
this address, the House of Assembly presented an address,
of which the following is an extract
We, his Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons
of Upper Canad, in provincial parliament assembled, return our
thanks for your Excellency's message of the 12th day of January
lmsaiseatit,,etstoadr transmitting
ced.
lot
to his
despatchiheiss llordship,
dasnhoispwf
etfrhoer t
torhi right
echeptrut
ar
phitins.e t
lettersohfe e C
and
t adroye,
butiened with grievances. and have becoine so
• alleged
that there is danger of revolt and bloodshed, unless those
the people of this happy and prosperous colony are odppipsrcroo4ngignttaebnaad:
burdens and grievances are removed and redressed.
1. We most readily concede that the noble Secretary
was actua ed by the best motives in framing the
de'Patact re-
question ; but we cannot refrain from expressing OUT gre
thus
gret that it did not occur to his lordship, that allegations,
deeply affecting the character of hi sMajesty's subjects of U.PPeat
Canada rested on no better testimony than that of an individuc!
who had been twice expelled this house, and who, to
of
quence of his having fabricated and re.terated libels o
Eeat
grossest description, had been declared unfit and unworthy a
in the assembly during the present parliament. If this fact he
occurred to his lordsh.p, it is reasonable to suppose tha rof
would not have felt himself at liberty to recognize the authoth,
this additional calumny on the people of this province. 0,01.31
agent, or as speaking the sentiments of any portion of the t
inhabitarA, of the province of Upper Canada, and would the;
fore have considered it utterly unnecessary to enter into so c!a_.
o f State
,t
borate an examination or refutation of anything advanced by

oebwmhtcic:hatriina
ne
diii‘merdt‘tyelp,ch:lrra Housedild;ineleb,fluacvoaeotrtht.hrafoii of Assembly are unwilling to o c c-u
pY 9 il, 0 f
our FN.
cellency's time or attention by commenting on the deta,. 2,
the despatch, or on the different matters referred to in 'fi'the
constituting grounds of complaint on the part of 3 few l't,)e re-
people
icnhntachiati
yr:ocshteeennfpisi
Inissarreel
otsoosoilfpbv,stncuutril lesnehestirskeelisoeetel
pusillanimous
allegedieLnu,lo•
ncayttraliitt,
:tot. they
ootaneoyeyruwaiyxsenewil
orsddis:flptlotiioshfmr Stateaiptethl.
hareeeesdleAyyL
eodsuectrnistgenei
mmitishitgl:
Legislature
ulukfpyprheeogatowihop
eda, of,peal titt,n_:,
u!f:uedtrtesabwoto ii
on::
province but justice in believing that there are no ee,,t'res, of
despairing of the public good, and of betraying their nos,Aes
and feelings diameti fealty opposite to those imputed wther,',. 0
are confident that they will take care to exercise their riginoe
freemen and British subjects, in such a manker as will 'fluent
constitution, guard our rights, and, with the concurrence ..',.„0
appear
This was the address of the House of Assembly of "el" ,
spoke of way in " wont
twhhaitcihmtuhsee htoonv.ilmifyemaubderahhuased. thought fit to come down i
the representatives of thiisavietairstcuo:
would lead the House of Commons to consider as u—as..
fected and discontented. This was the language of an
sembly elected in the freest and most impartial manner e,
chosen by a constituency composed of forty-shilling ti''. of
holders and of persons in free possession of housnoi•
the value of 51., or renting houses of the value 0,1 ",,,,
Yet this was the way in which they spoke ot under
constitution and of the happiness they enjoy ed
,is,lo,hl
it. (Hear, hear.) Then he (Mr. Stanley)
cool'
beg to remind the house, that in the year 1828 ated t°
mittee of the House of Commons had been aPrain The
hcoonns.idgeernttlheemsatehadof tthheougcohltonfiytoftoUpper Canm;
them mitten the
house
us withoutthat
t such
a deigningeoii
i WaJ
Mr. ROEBUCK said the right hon. gentlemai
co,
mistaken, as he had noticed the proceedings of that
mittee in the course of his speech, and— on.
Mr. STANLEY was not even aware that the of
gentleman had mentioned it. At all events his mentilir,
it was so slight that it had altogether escaped his ( rt,
Stanley's) observation. That committee, in their reP?,-ic
state t'hat they " are desirous of recording the priocira,
which, in their judgment, should be applied in any alteirtn-
tions in the constitution of the Cana&s which were ii,
itteteo
hadmention
sat
at i a
it°a,
s,
lv.,eorer
at to
ol iiiicf:ootl,l-10,;
parted to them under the formal Act of the British Lejong
lature of 1791. That principle is to limit the alterritjah
which it may be desirable to make by any future
Act, as far as possible, to such points as, from the elirbd
between the mother country and the Cpaasnasd
disposed of b the paramount authority of the British Le
gislature ; and they are of opinion that all other
a,12,
should, if possible, be carried into effect by the loew.ile'the
latures themselves, in amicable communication 1," ~A
local government." He (Mr. Stanley) cordially
that opinion. He joined the committee in thinkirltble'raa3
little intervention as possible should take place 0
_',.."as slur-
of the government of the mother country, and he.",erven-
prised that the hon. gentleman should propose an ,:t_olony
ton on the part of this country, in the affairs of 'other
which enjoyed freer institutions than almost lasseni-
country on the face of the globe, and the legislative
..., lot
bly of which, chosen by the free voice of the peoPied the
declared their satisfaction with the government_au t
tphreesehnotn.sygsteeumtleomfaaffn asirhso.uldHheawv-easepheocsuleniart
eral 'lee
riod to bring forward this motion, when the gep ,_..,,,e an
tion was about to come on, and the people would°_°`f their
opportunity of showing, by the choice or rejection 0
(Hear, hear. ) He (Mr. Stanley) woul take h i:'_!ii,,
tions of the hon. and learned member as he hadn t!`_`ii,
them, though the case of the two colonies wa e!nseu!rp j,
present
thatsatrepresentativesisfa w, whetheric
the or
ando not 0 r they
erl coten_
xteipnraue:e_Lctio:
different. He (Mr. Stanley) maintained, that
Canada there were no complaints,
plaint, but he at the same time
different in the Lower Province. In tracing
and
iv
his several allegations co
learned gentleman through ti"
o trespass on the time of .
plaints, he would endeavour t
would admit'
house as shortly as the nature of the subject 0
_l.
consistently with giving a full explanation of the
.I).Tie
which he had mooted. The first point mentionedveo3n 14
hon. and learned gentleman was the difference between the
adreinttoerdgrthaut grounds
hiocoasfne.c°,.:-3,,i
constitution of Upper and Lower Canada. I ,_,,t,
one he admitted that there was no matter for colon;
but in the other there was. The first pointot c
lc
lhy: ur p
presentr i s e d that
ea:
plaint was the constitution of the executive and oi,
lative councils. The duties of the executive affair,
cil were to advise with the Governor on the _..' of
of the colony ; to pass the Government accountserwiti,
as regarded the treasury, and other matters conneet.he oaf- 1
the Government ; but, said the hon. gentleman, 1 isiative
cutive council interferes with the duties of the leg,h hi.;
council. This was the fallacy which ran thrill cony ,
whole argument. He told them of an act of aho, ',) wl- t
mitted by Sir James Craig, which he (Mr. St.o6 other
lingly admitted to have been unconstitutional, alTe reeou,-,
acts previous to 1828; but he said nothing of t''' once tele' ,
mendations of the committee of 1828, nor did he
_d in th ,
the house that the Government had ever since acts ittee,. • ,
closest manner on the recommendations of the egluse el k
and had used every exertion to do away with evekr-ev a`niel°lo; `r,
grievance. (Hear.) He (Mr. Stanley) in t'notioll,,,, ~,
ment which he should conclude by moving to the that !'.,
the hon. and learned gentleman, would propose
; theirl t
committee to be appointed should be confined in cad .-af ,
quiries to the state of Lower Canada. He Pr°P state .-
• •to the the"
the committee be appointed to inquire in 0 t,
... o .ha
the lower province, because the Government vc.',sary '
~,,, •
trial both here and in Canada. And it was neee,;_coell:_,,i
they should have an opportunity of defending wi10n.,,1,
from the accusations brought against them by the s.'b• f
learned member. He knew that it would be itil:ronei
for the whole house to go into consideration of ~ ee, st),
farious subjects which such an inquiry would euw,rbiete,„ :.
he invited—nay, more—demanded an inquiry
ol ,d o_l',. ~
in order that the honourable member sli w__roinel'o
stantiate the charges brought against the Gov:00..00'o
or the government have an opportunity of refti':l ;elf
(Hear, hear), and he (Mr. Stanley) pledged 1°", inse,
show before the committee, that the governioF'l the, r.o. .f
they had done, had acted in strict accordance withat thcci, ,',
d
commendations of
motishbhutlaoenticsiyicb:hlommittee of 1828; and td Cei;fie
eeoetsrfhewAsnaaptsoysifiamee
dntmehaetbrtemhhkl
the executive
x.ndoepbexlviuy‘en,
who
uo:tes,
i,Psv,:ibe.oroeolit I
or'.,e:::-00i_itiotioaa.ersbeir..
:0:
r'l
rjoiei,li
:i
~:
liation and concession. (Cheers.) With regarn,ber;, 1,
legislative and executive councils, the hon. il'iiie l'qbe 4:
conducttfmcc
ihei
peeantma
ittrtbepheoer
Therosthroughout
oexecutiveatfhaoseefmt
ihLai eel
was
ge
lative council, and actually governed it ; that entiV, ;
under the influence of the government; and that cif oihe
Upper Canada there were thirty-two memhers'd, ( cii of f
only six were members of the Legislative Cowl' oatio,bree ;
hear.) As to Lower Canada, the executive ere, 1
that province consisted of thirty-seven mein ii, choo.
only of which were in the legislative couneie te 'pee
were facts which he (Mr. Stanley) should be old iireboo• ~
satisfactorily to the house, and of which he e.lhe,,teti
the most satisfactory evidence before the cominitteveivg 811.5,19'
member had accused him (Mr. Stanley) of ha 0 the
the opinions which he had expressed in 1828, 1 ; I.ot liit
ject of the constitution of the legislatiasANe-eve.srotninnolv—il,aret '
was not the fact. He (Mr. S. had then n`:ctitlicFarcie•
he now repeated, that a legislative council, COVa-i, 40, as 4
the legislative council of Lower Canada then ' irffe,ii:l, ~.'
pending, as the members then were, on Ple..cii "
subject to the influence of the goyernTept,
tive council he had declared tOir a grieyancle(i
confirmed of the same opipipp, He W'''u di
what he then said by some extracts from the r i
committee of 1828, in regard to the govern beg
Canada ; but before doing so, he would DTe
, ty ~,,,
the attention of the house to a part of _ oe.
taken before the committee. The housterw itiN
that in 1828 a petition, signed by 87,000 °f, ,•
of Lower Canada, living under the French is "Plat'
the British House of Cominops,ip 'Which rove'
made of arbitrary acts on the part of the
,_.s pe
province, and of many other abuses. In' 311
intrusted to the care of three gentlemen,. _
Mr. Vigar, and Mr. Cuvillier, membersooftt.tr
Lower Canada, who had been deputed tthis
the purpose of seeking redress of the ins that
of by them. Now, it was remarkable,
r....e
resolutions passed by the assembly, whicilA (~
not
Messrs. Neilson and Cuvillier, who cour seilsol
to be opposed to the popular party. in tat
that the evils complained of did not
tion or system of Government, but w
to
codpera
house of assembly should be called
nuously in repealing the laws, and pr°enven_tiendgby.4
complained of. That was the language n' ; 1
but tha,t_
ere
,N,
smooladnen,elaibid3os, pphetieamdk i;nwgaa
nst
donohttehfeodlfileofetsl,ha,
followed;
,f 1 the t n
tinhteet yroense, lot
7,10 ,
a report was agreed to, which stated that 11

I

er?s'leo"iill
eh A be 5,0
p!'
streProl
RFOrt I,OWe
t°f dr3°,
tO .te;4,F
eVlauS.
1 Mlt'
t°
• 4e.-
‘"as o'er' •
..pot sva"
islelic 0
asselov" V,
collatrii))lie"
coop-o,re
tbere,eil
opP°,o4
be '"iLtte`
rho'. te
son „tlt,
;he 1- t"'
ba
viog t
str
,perate etice,'
I%lPititialli.
res°- 6°l
AnnoendsrosP
he coot jot
were se
r

t v3s in lite systcin of government. lii Mr. Ni ilson's evi-
dence before a entriMitt ec of the House of Commenst he stated,
There are two modes in which the composito i of the Le-
gislative Council might be bettered; the one which, I believe,
the majority
exercise of the
of the people in Lower Canada have in view, is by
the
prerogative a pointing men who are inde.
Pendent of the executiveand, intact, who are able to live by
their own
siste. means. That has appeared to us obe the most con_
Lnt with the constitution under which we live. If that were
4'us.Zl,,r,,°. be impracticable, the other mode would be to make the
arZtrxiniv,.e COuncil elective,' by electors of a higher qualification,
sit in theiV. qualification in property for the persons that might
be safe *Airmen. I should conceive that the latter mode would
from ti enough for all parties ; still it seems to be a deviation
s Li le constitutisn under which we live.
is not itti conceive, then, that the fault of the Legislative Council
in ii.,, i the original constitution of the body, but in the manner
smile, which the
choice of counsellors has been exercised ?--Cer.
o,y that
'nay, perhaps, be unavoidable ; because it s impost-
inul byte teethe Government here should see in the colons, excep -
4 means of the people that are in the colony, they must_
tathkee the recommendations that are sent from the colony , and if
to a3'..re men that are not independent, and not suited altogether,
ap4an
the part in the Council, of course they mtisi
otG, !. the in notwithstanding, for they do not know that it
„ ~rise,
s
'nts,nert You say that those alterations would improve the
impttieli of the legislative Council, do you use the wordo
WhiSft-iv'e.' in this sense, that they would constitute
iansbeday
If ...., Suld serve with the lower.house in their vie sewstlL...d
,--ire',7liie with the governor, as it now does, in his vi
theson`e suppose that it would be compelled to agree with nei.
lino, e nor the other. At present we suppose that .
it
is abso-
he au iciOstoPelled to agree with the governor. Then it would
the two'ePendent body, that would keep the
"eeelaws and
iteet„,? ail(' give a certain stability to the existing
ritoootis.
quifea leu conceive that if there were some qualification re-
sin, .rotn the members of the legislative couticil,. the ptroe-
legsia would still feel satisfied to allow the nomination of h _
fees„t've council to remain with the Crown ?—Thegeneral
SitoeiS et' the people has not been in favour
.of alteratio.n, bu
tbe a feeling of satisfaction with the usual rights exercised by
lea:rts"rn in those matters. It never was imagined, by us at
ette4is"at!t the legislative council was to be otherwise than a body
bee At'ng in s°flie measure from rhe 9.own' • officers should
~e, You ofopinion that any class of executive .
c'l?-enscted by law from being members of the legislative coun.
th: Nvirisiy certainly.
? I should say, that in that country
1;4 itt„gesciotigetitoYltieheentxcltrded from the legislative council ;
''ntte4',.,4,v?utahly mixes them up with politics, and they become,
1' Do -` Judges in some measure, political partisans. .
tise?......,Yeu tkinksthat should apply equally to the Chief Jua..
4, . It the Chief Justice is to be everything he is at present, t• *.i.ber os
'se essiiii, the legislative council, cnairman of the execti-
""" Part!, Presiding in the court cf appeals, and taking an
almost ines:ah,ii the public business of the province, he must be
ing a certar''e of avoiding, when he is upon the bench feel-
ur inst- s . 4 b2aS, : it is believed, too, that. such a.- bias exists;
ttl°4eti in 'the', e'onuenn a . prosecution is advised, it must be sane_
j Foune.lll ell in order to . now the expenses the exem_
?tube, is ti, titst course advised the prosecutioe, aild the C.hi.enf
anger Of see ledge to sit on the bench and try it, and he is i
-8 a bias a, ng biassed. In truth, people do conceive that there
it." If thS Chief in matters where the crewn iesocootnieveerenoend.
council,
iVils thl:skntiteiferJustice did not belongt.tronthoexhis
belo.igingn itio
Were t:gislative coettn't%lld—blef any
llhief Justice, or any judge,
being 'et to beactive politicians, there. would be no bariii iti their
tire° any s here; but the society being small, they become a -
s tehticians.
bP isgt Oct by beieg executive counc,ilttoerysithel ttheeytgteetimngixlede-
ginsti"S Politics ha is the gst.t. I
.. h i
lag gait,. councillors, but in the legislative counsil, in the s-
tile billfor opposed to
Hs, they take an active part; they are or. .
tlisi acs it has been frequently tound that they interpret in
Hr courtsacceding to the interpretation in the counciL"
0 continues__
itt" Would you think it desirable that a provision of this sort
4,,T:1!1 be made, that not above a certain proportion of the Le-
ZiYs tive Council should consist of persons in the pay and em.
inent of Government?—Certainly, I should say so, that
e,tild
.Dohse a proper rule for the Government to act upon.
L ou think it possible that, in a country circumstanced as
ti)7Yr Canada is, the Legislative Council can really command
sstinithience and respect of the people, or go on in harmony
it,•,oe House of Assembly, unless the principle of election is
Ali 1-Zed into its composition in some manlier or another ?
'ent fro' depends in truth upon the instiuctions that may he
I!leis
.shl the Government of this coustry ; if they are depen-
tistrotT!o the Governor, of course they move according to the
geeoset;(slls to Governor, this country, because the Governor must move
" t° those itistructien;"
the ex. flvillier uses still stronger language in regard to
~ Doe !!sion of the Judges. He says—
tolapoai: Petitioners whom
(you repiesent complain of the
jo! Uf wht.()l, the Legislative y do.
logy of this '''' they complain ?—They complain that the ma-
thatg tsars Members of the Legislative Council are persons.
they a;:es, c't Profit during pleasure, and in consequence of the. flow dc)s hot esnsidered independent i f the Crown. _
otsslr opis„i„E,',l.eY propose to remedy. it ?—I do not know that
esg.ve it•.' "ss been taken upon that particul r point. I call
ju hest as tnY opinion to the committee, that if it were not
is°,l3es ou to my
the legislative council elective, certainly the
Sis,:tis itetityoet.e eick luded nom that booy, and also the coilec.lf
revenue, and the ai.litatt.
4:l4Vek°atui:
aaeir, hhea:ll.lcl:::ts 110 et
el
oeguir,bli:twi voeuz
be
ewere of
of accounts.b
thereeectve,
uisite in ecters,
cif, itteseriot? 9itslititation for the member, ; but decidedly cer-
„„or Iti,Lit.iiis of per,ons ought not to be elected in the coun-
th 'OW this 're, c.llectors alio receivers of the revs cue "
taile Hoe ' was not only the report of the committee of
s -se of c
sof th ommons, but the language of the represen-
• Wer c Popular portion of the House of Assembly of
her
,altada. The committee of Ursati house, on the
Gent lto, str ,n sham . . ongly recommenced that
cter
sh'4l)oth s, should be given to the legislative councils
0,,, , t, c
'e:4l not anadas ; that the majority of the members
lts, °I tes colisist ns holding offices at the plea-
--,., to tonne °wn ; nand that any other measures that might
teti et
v‘; ," with .more intimately this branch of the Consti-
''Li the the interests of the colonies would be attended
F
the gt__ e,test advantage. With respect to the judges,
lartieniareoxece.tion of the Chief Justice, whose presence on
to nod oil
might be necessary, your committee en-
Politteal b doubt that they had better not be involved in the
Pears 4-, yclseu'eeoss Of. the house. Upon similar grounds it ap-
ould hold, tornittee, that it is not desirable that judges
andsZetwornaetots in the executive council." These were the
t' "s' theua "
Itoe the legi the committee of the House of Com-
ad ever since been acted upon. 'At that.
slat'
1,,1;h°41 held offic!sve Council consisted of 27 persons, 19 of
rtjasure of th 'S, from which they were removable at the
ittee that . e crown, and the recommendation of the Ogees tit should a, s“ not consist of persons holding such tos • ...ow
, e the whole how had that been followed up? At that
;ehlosest of the judges had seats,. but they wersenntohwe
la,
.., With the exception of the chief justice. I
lircilott%e'e council there were. in 1/328, 17 councillors, who
ROver "1 es at the pleasure of, the crown, which
.gave the
the 4wient a majority of six in that assembly. Since then
wheo,ltrober Of jounei)lors had been government. to 35, o
(tit' 27 are entirely independent of the g
q.', hear.)
\lO. ROEI3UCK made a remark, which was inaudible.
N' STANLEY—If the statement is disputed, I have
the tnee to show the ,members of and documents which give
frut-arnes of all the 'of tlie legislative council,
Iso
~nWhieh it clearly appears that 77 of the members hold
\I
ititlcreee: at the pleasure of the government. (Cheers. )
hon. P_.eet to the national origin of the membersofwhich
three werin, either complained, he (Mr. Stanley) found that
c Angl-rnericans. It -stood as follows :......

-1828 1833.
3 5
Angle- Americans
7
gush
6
Irish ................... .. ........ 50
,c,,,,.. . . .. 6
This lit lush 'French'canadiaiis
Usm , was the spirit in which the government carried(Cheerso)r-;
-- the •
of the committee ,
and i.„ is recommendations
With ihs'tow that they still continued to carry
extract from a de-
spat,h e say
spirit, he would read an
addressed to the
them through
notii i°of Lord Aylmer, dated 1831, and Stanley)
h4tl ri, d Who filled the office which (Mr.he.twas
stated, in
rekre honour of now filling, in which
`` The to the appointment of mein!)Fnresreol
the number
of these gemlemen, if appointed, w.'11,1 ,•nfastehe Council—
and
the Speak?r,
and witrgislative Council to 35, 1
inc u _
trkt of Q°iit eoUnting the three Puisne Juggeonadofßtohweedins):
ilvho no long (Messrs. Kerr, Tashereau,
'iheratio --ger attend-the meetings, or take part.
your
lordshi ns.of that body In the accompany'
i en now
accompanying list
the de-
recom,,P will obsery , that of the eleven gent.emlist
are i'1,4(1e4 to b: ppointed legislative councillors,”eeigaht
14 4% - to extraCiion four are members of thtehen
goves-eMbly, and they are totally independent of
____
has by
of the province, with one exception, as al'
localse
attemi Y the
.accompanying list, and the circumstancesthyfi
tat.intng, which are therein stated.
the eventu of which the Legislative CounOcifl will
Icsonus,iisltl
bein
futti, of these gentlemen being appointed,
be s of French extracti " And at the head . -
tpttfioviind the name of Mar And
who filled the in
(1., e office of provincial aidede-camP Governor.
to the
Cell*, hear.) The result was, that instead of thes..aGroc-
yq:cent having a majority of six in the Legi i ti
(4 birthere removable at pleasure,.
.e.ii
dent and be-
,i, h,, .: &ve Members were now mdeen ,
as in 1828, the
,01,.,,,,...
that of the Government. (Cheers.) This
tieBti'" that the Government had substantially. and ho-
that of
hiQ adnPted the recommendations
that h (Hear, hear.) The hon. geonftltehmeanco had stated
lki,i e (Mr Stanley) had departed from the principles
~ he •
d in the evidence before
-,N, oh, by le committee, but he (Mr.
.Stanley) had
the 5 -I read that which
e,
- rt made thereon;
atiii, oiirlluittee of the House,- and the rge
of
corn-
Phttee I adopting the recommenda n
of his ' 'te (Ai. Stanley) had only examfoilluszedd,thbeatatlapslte,
Peen: predecessor, who had, late
downthe
reptatt.°lnpelled to adopt the principles
ilnid
l'tat p , The hon member asked whether despatch
the
was, that it
the 4u- wls written in a spirit which showerd good-will
Nvksi:s'eTtbly His (Mr. Stanley's) answer
monstr?us
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°43 of f3„..41g that it was all done before
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his acts wereart
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ristration of which
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be
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heßtzildt erian
the house, that nothing couldwe,
t--'atiat, Sher than tha_t the Legislative Assembly of Lo
f the
ProvineesgeUld have full control over the revenue o
co _
rectuess . f ,lik e (Mr. Stanley) admitted the general
hon. r
eoleiria°„`!'at position • but he thought that the
iv_,
3ure th - Self would'adinit—or at all events, he
thiiik. at the house would j in with' him (mr. stanley)!L
be itiPR-----that the G • -o
d Council shouh.
hi . Iperids oNernor, Judges, an
Assem-
3. Re ht of an annual vote of the House of
eat( r
Npfirtai, ar, htar. ) If there was one thing of gr -
qher, it " to the good administration of justice than.an_
was the independence of the judicial establish-

, ' ment (Hear, hear) ; its independence of the Crown on
the one side, and of the people on the other. (Hear, hear,
from Mr. Roebuck.) He ( Mr. S.) was glad to hear that
, cheer from the hen. gen, lettn.n ; for, in giving it, he
himself justified all that he (Mr. S.) had done in regard
to this part of the subject. ( Hear, hear.) But the hon.
gentleman had omitted to state, that in 1774, the Act
called the Quebec Art was passed, under which certain
duties were leviable by his Alajesty, without any control.
In 1778, it was enacted that these duties should not be ap-
plicable but to the purpose of the provinces—and in 1791
an act was passed, which divided the upper from the lower
province, with separate legislatures ; and which guaranteed
to the upper province the enjoyment of the laws of Great
Britain, and to the lower province and the seignories along
the banks of the Saint Lawrence, that of the French laws,
which were feudal laws in their y,orst form. Now, it was
not till 1818 that the territorial revenue was found defi-
cient for the purposes of the province, and it was conse-
quently
unnecessary to apply to the House of Assembly for
assistance. But at last, when it was found necessary to ap-
ply, the House of Assembly said, that if they had to pay
the money they ought to have some control over the man-
ner in which it was expended. He admitted that it was
one of the recommendations of the committeeof 1828, that
the control of the revenue should be given to the House
of Assembly ; and he (Mr. Stanley) would say that that
recommendation, as far as practicable, had been sedu-
lously adhered to. In consideration of the misery and want
which followed the prevalence of cholera in Montreal,
the governor conceived himself justified in giving 7,000/.
to assist the necessitous of the sufferers on the occasion ;
and he had, on the meeting ofthe house, applied for the re-
payment of that sum. This was the onlyinstance in which the
governor had taken upon himself the responsibility of spending
money belonging to the house, and the only case, indeed,
in which he had in any way interfered in one way or other
with its finances. (Hear, hear, from the ministerial side
of the house.) With respect to the judges in our Canadian
colonies, the select committee of that house, appointed in
1828 to inquire into matters connected with the civil go-
vernment in that country, had recommended to parliament
that they should be equally independent of the legislative
assembly and of the crown. In accordance with this re-
commendation, his noble friend had proceeded with the
greatest caution and forbearance with regard to the house
of assembly. He had reposed confidence in their sense of
what was due in the circumstances of the case, but had
been disappointed. In 1830, his (Mr. Stanley's) noble
friend had proposed that they should appropriate a perma-
nent fund for the payment of the salaries of the judges;
but the proposal was disregarded. No such permanent ap-
propriation had been made. He had made the offer to the
legislature of Lower Canada, and to the legislature of
Upper Canada. From the latter he had received a letter
of thanks for the offer, acknowledging it was handsome,
and saying that a sufficient permanent civil list should be
voted by the legislature. His noble friend had trusted to
the honour and patriotism of the house of assembly-in the
matter; but they had not yet come to the determination of
adopting the recommendation of the select committee of
1828, to make the judges independent. The house of as-
sembly had not proved themselves worthy of the confidence
which had been reposed in them. They had endeavoured
to obtain by-objects, by a circuitous course, which they
would not venture to acknowledge openly. In this state,
things remained when he (Mr. Stanley) commenced
his duties as Secretary for the Colonies. The house
of assembly had proposed one bill respecting the mat-
ters to which he had been directing the attention of
the house ; but that bill was clogged with' illegal
conditions, and, therefore, his Majesty had been saved the
necessity of signing it. If every officer of the Government
depended for his salary on an annual vote of the House of
Assembly, swayed as it was by passion and prejudice--and
he had no hesitation in saying, though he lamented the
fact, that it was so—it would be as well to do away not only
with the functions of council, but with the legislative, exe-
cutive, and every other branch of the Administration. The
House of Assembly had arrogated to themselves functions
to which it had no right, and had exercised a power alto-
gether unwarranted by the law. In 1831 they passed a
resolution that no man should be eligible to sit in their house
who held office under the Crown, and added a clause to the
resolution arrogating to themselves this extraordinary
power, that until such resolution should receive the sanc-
tion of his Majesty, no officer who might be chosen to a
seat in their house should be allowed to perform the func-
tions of a legislator. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Stanley)
spoke under correction, but he spoke from very high autho-
rity indeed, when he said that this was a stretch of power
which the House of Commons never arrogated to itself.
It never claimed to itself the right or power to give any of
its resolutions the force of a law before such resolutions had
received the concurrence of the other two branches of the
Constitution. In accordance with the resolution in ques-
tion, the House of Assembly had suspended the issuing of a
writ for the election of a member for Montreal, for a year
and a half, because that important, and trading, and
commercial town, was chiefly the seat of British in-
dustry and British interests. He (Mr. Stanley) now
came to the last point—the peculiar circumstances of
Upper Canada. There, there was no animosity among the
inhabitants, in consequence of distinctions either in politi-
cal or religious sentiments. The case was very different in
Lower Canada. Perhaps the house would permit him
(Mr. Stanley) here to refer to the evidence of the state of
feeling on religion and politics in the Canadas, given by
men whose intelligence and veracity were unquestionable.
(Here the right hon gentleman read from the report of the
select committee of 1823, the evidence of Mr. Edward
Ellice, and one or two other gentlemen.) Much of the
animosity which existed in Lower Canada upon religious
subjects, arose from the circumstance of there being so
many French emigrants there. No person could be mere
opposed than he was to anything which could be con-
strued into an interference with the fullest religious liberty,
both in faith and practice ; but he felt it his duty to extend
protection to British subjects ; and the contest now going
on in Lower Canada was a contest between British sub-
jects and French emigrants. He (Mr. Stanley) was
aware there were many persons, for whose intelligence and
opinions he entertained a high respect, who advocated a
union between Upper and Lower Canada as the most ef-
fective measure which could be had recourse to for the ad-
justment of the differences and the healing of the divisions
and dissensions which existed in that part of our colonies.
He was of a very different opinion. A union between the
two Canadas might have advantageously taken place
some time back ; but he certainly did not think it
would be prudent to venture on so serious a step at
present. It was possible, indeed, that circumstances
might arise which might force on parliament the
necessity of taking such a step, and in such a contin-
gency the union might be productive of mutual advantage ;
but he must repeat, that he saw nothing that would warrant
such a measure just now ; and he, for one, was not as yet
prepared to assent to it. He trusted that circumstances
would not occur to force it on the Government and that
house. He wished, he repeated, to see all possible protec-
tion afforded to French emigrants ; but that protection
must be extended to them in such a manner as would not in-
terfere with the rights and privileges of British subjects.
The complaints which the House of Assembly preferred
against the English Government were various, and he
(Mr. Stanley), while he consented to the appointment of
a select committee to inquire into their alleged grievances,
would take care that those complaints were considered one
by one. Among other things laid to the charge of his
Majesty's Government, was that of making unreasonable
demands from the House of Assembly respecting the in-
terests of British traders in Montreal. All that the Crown
asked on this head was, that the House of Assembly should
shake off the trammels which crippled and cramped commerce
in that important and trading town. And he would ask,
was there anything unreasonable in this? When every
measure of the House of Assembly was inimical to British
property and British subjects, was he (Mr. Stanley) to
concede to the demand to have the Legislative Council also
elected by the people? He was not prepared to yield this
concession to any menace or intimidation that might be re-
sorted to for the purpose. The right of continuing the
Legislative Council on the footing on which it at present
stood was a right which he was prepared to assert at all
hazards, and by every constitutional means in his power.
The last charge which had been made against the British Go-
vernment, was, that they had not admitted French emigrants
to office in the Canadas. The charge was not altogether
correct ; for out of 214 functionaries, 43 were French
emigrants. It was true that the admission to office of
French emigrants were not all in the same proportion as
those of suluects of Great Britain ; but he was sure the
house would concur with him, when he said it was at once
natural and necessary that in all our colonies the offices
should be chiefly filled by persons from the mother country.
With regard to the judges in the Canadas, he begged to
state that none of them belonged to this country. The
litserlsialac-ssew,ho administered justice there were either born in
or. had settled in it early in life, and had made
of yeaarnds.instArearinsutehweirrecpolinedstatnet
every
yy
efohraragleonefg se-
riesany
yconsequence that had been preferred against his Majesty's
Government. He would agree to the appointment of a
select committee, and would see that every despatch and
document bearing on the charge brought, against them be
referred to the full and impartial consideration of that com-
mittee. He would consent, without hesitation and without
reluctance, to the British Government being put on its
trial ; he neither wished nor asked any favour to be shown
them. What he wished was, that the trial should be full,
and fearless, and impartial. He had but one point more to
detain the house on—it was most desirable that the inde-
pendence of the judges there should be secured by render-
ing their salaries wholly independent of the squabbles of
the two houses of legislature, For this purpose it would
be necessary to suspend the act passed on this subject in
the time of his noble predecessor, until such time as a
final and permanent provision were made for the
judicial bench by the United Legislative Assembly
of Canada, and he thought that the house would
not think this proposition unreasonable, as the ob-
ject proposed was so important a one as securing
the independence of the dispensers of the law. He
would not detain the house by any observations upon the
resolutions passed by the Canadian House of Assembly—
their exuberant eulogies upon those ardent lovers of Ame-
rica and freedom, the hon. member for Middlesex, and
he hon. and learned member for Dublin—nor would h(
•omment, though he might well, upon their declaration
t hat America, and not Britain, was the land whose insti-

tutions they admired, and wished to copy. He would no
trespass further on the attention of the house, but con-
clude by moving, as an amendment, " That a select com-
mittee should be appointed to consider the complaints of
grievances made by the inhabitants of Lower Canada, and
report thereon to the house, and also to inquire and
report to the house how far the recommendations made on
the subject by a former committee had been attended to."
The question being put,
Mr. O'CONNELL said he should recommend the hon.
member for Bath to withdraw his motion and allow the
amendment to remain, as he would thereby throw all the
responsibility of the matter on government, whose pro-
ceedings, if they persisted in the course they had hitherto
pursued, would very speedily have the effect of bringing
about for the Canadians the same independence as was
now enjoyed by their neighbours in the United States. He
protested against the constitution of the legislative council,
mnd against the shameless interference of our government
in the Canadian elections. _ .

Mr. HUME said the right hon. Secretary had intro-
Ouced his name very unnecessarily • but he was very in-
different about the right hon. gentleman's sneer, as he con-
sidered that it was much better to be eulogised as the
friend than be cursed as the oppressor of a distant land.
The Canadians had done him (Mr. H.) no more than jus-
tice, in describing him as the opponent of a bad Tory ad-
ministration, and the right hon. Secretary would find him
an equally determined opponent of a bad Whig Adminis-
tration. rHe had been surprised at the manner in which
the right hon. gentleman had spoken of these resolutions,
which had been rejected in the House of Legislature in
Upper Canada solely by the most determined exercise of
every engine of bribery and corruption, but which had
passed the House of Assembly in Lower Canada by a ma-
jority of fifty-eight. The right hon. Secretary appeared
to set at nought the feelings of the Canadians. No sooner
did he come into office, than, by way of expressing his con-
tempt for the conciliatory measures adopted by his prede-
cessor he recalled the Attorney and Solicitor-General,
who had been dismissed by Lord Goderich in accordance
with the universally expressed wish of the Canadians, and
thrust them into still higher offices than they held before—
the one in Nova Scotia, the other in Canada. The na-
tural consequence was, that while the Earl of Ripon was
every way applauded and thanked for his liberality and
considerate government, the proceedings of the present
Colonial Secretary were characterised as tyrannical
and unconstitutional. He (Mr. Hume) deeply regretted
that his Majesty's Government did not see the wisdom,
justice, and policy of leaving these colonies to manage their
own affairs. He hoped that the noble lord (Althorp), who
was the chief director of the affairs of his Majesty's Go-
vernment in that house, would take care that the commit-
tee moved for was impartially and fairly appointed. He
heartily concurred in the motion. The right hon. Secre-
tary for the Colonial Department had declared his anxiety
to render justice to the colonies, but he had taken a very
extraordinary method of doing so; he seemed, indeed, to
be much more pleased with his own views with regard to
this matter than the parties most deeply interested were
likely to be.
Lord HOWICK said, that some of the statements made
by the hon. member for Middlesex, and by the hon. and
learned member for Dublin, were so erroneous, that it was
necessary for him to offer one or two observations to the
house. As regarded the alleged desire to control the
public purse, he must declare that neither the present go-
vernment, nor, he was bound in justice to add, the govern-
ment of which the Duke of Wellington was the head, wished
to effect any control over the revenue of Canada. He begged
to remind the house the point in dispute was, whether fixed
salaries should be given to the judges to render them in-
dependent. It had been asserted that the government
ought to deprive the people of their right of taking ground
for the building of Catholic churches ; but he declared, on
the other hand, that ever since the conquest this country
had acted with great liberality towards the Catholic clergy.
With respect to the cases of exclusion to which reference
had been made, he would inform the house that the Earl
of Ripon, when Secretary of State for the Colonial De-
partment, in a communication which he made to the legis-
lature, in reply to the information he had received, did not
deny the power which had been exercised ; but his lord-
ship remarked, " that the justice of the exclusion was more
than questionable ; the individuals, however, having been
excluded, the writs must issue again." He (Lord Howick)
would express his regret at the state of Upper and Lower
Canada. From the first moment that he had the honour
of a seat in that house, he had taken the deepest interest in
the affairs of these states. When he sat on the other side
of the house he was one of those who, in connection with
the late Mr. Huskisson, opposed, and successfully opposed,
a measure brought forward by Sir George Murray, which
had for its object the control of the revenue and the
formation of a moderate civil list. As Under-Secretary
for the Colonies, he subsequently had the honour of
bringing in a bill by which the Crown gave up its title
to the disputed revenue, on condition that the legisla-
ture would provide permanently for the governor and the
judges of the province. He much regretted that no such
provision had taken place. There was a distinction, how-
ever, to be made between Upper and Lower Canada, the
legislature of the former having agreed to a civil list which
was on a more economical scale than some thought it ought
to be, but which had, nevertheless, been accepted. He
must admit that the aspect of affairs was most threatening
when he quitted office. He did not know what had pro-
duced the crisis. In his opinion no good would result from
the committee, and he would express his hope that, at all
events, hon. gentlemen would not, by language used in
that house, aggravate the existing disputes.
Mr. STEW ART said that the people of Canada were
most anxious for this discussion, desiring, above all things,
to have their differences settled. He was sorry that the
hon. and learned member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had
connected, in the speech he had addressed to the house,
the affairs of Upper and Lower Canada. He rejoiced in
the appointment' of a committee, and he should deceive
the house if he did not explicitly state what would be his
recommendation. He would say, " Unite them, give
them unity, for sooner or later it must come. Give them
peace and concord amongst themselves." That was the
only way in which to unite them, so as to enable them ef-
fectually to resist their enemies, whose object was to
weaken, and then to separate, the connection of the Cana-
dian States with this country.
Mr. ROEBUCK replied. He contended that if there
had been any breach of good faith, it rested with the Go-
vernment, and not with the House of Assembly. As a
proof of the violence that had been offered to the popular
feeling, he called attention to the first of attempts having
been made by the judges to suppress the use of the French
language in the courts of law. Could it be said that no-
thing had been done to excite the people's jealousy, while
unjust distinctions were kept up ; or when attempts were
made to establish a Protestant church—the greater part of
the population being Catholic? How could it be expected
that people would contentedly see efforts made to set up a
church in which they felt no interest, if they did not en-
tertain towards it a decided hostility? There ought to be
no distinction of a religious description—no distinction of
classes of the people ; and till this was obtained, he hoped
that the exertions which had been made to get such dis-
tinctions abolished would be continued.

Mr. ROEBUCK then withdrew his motion, and a
select committee was agreed to, to inquire into the best
mode of carrying Mr. Stanley's motion into effect.
Mr. STANLEY then moved the committee, which,
amongst others, included all those now in the house who
constituted part of the committee of 1828.
Mr. HUME wished to have himself excepted, not from
an unwillingness to serve, but because he was already a
member of seven committees.

Mr. O'CoNNELL postponed his motion, as did also Sir
JAMES GRAHAM.

Mr. LYNCH, being requested to postpone his motion
respecting the Court of Chancery in England, said that he
had, when before so requested, acceded to the wish ; but,
however interesting might be the object of the noble lord
( Althorp), he (Mr. Lynch) still did not think the house
had a right to call upon him for further postponement. The
hon. member ultimately agreed to the postponement.
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY obtained leave to bring
in a bill for the better regulating the delivery of letters and
newspapers transmitted by the General Post.
Mr. VERNON SMITH said he had some observations
to make upon this subject, which he would reserve to the
second reading of the bill.
Mr. LYNCH—As he had acceded to the request of the
house, hoped some indulgence would be granted to him, and
that he might obtain permission to bring forward his motion
on some other day.
It was understood that the discussion was fixed for to-
morrow (this day).
TITHES.

Lord ALTHORP said he rose to bring forward the
motion of which he had already given notice, and in doing
so, feared he should be obliged to occupy the house with
some details which, at that late hour, might press hardly on
their time. The question which he had to bring before
them was one of great andparamount interest to the landed
proprietors of this country ; and though on some points
connected with it, differences of opinion might exist, there
was one upon which he would not hesitate to say, all were
agreed, and that was, that wherever the right to tithes
existed, the right was not in the landowner. He felt
satisfied in assuming it as the opinion of that house, that
so long as the church required the assistance of the reve-
nues arising out of this species of property, that want
would be considered as forming a prior claim to its pos-
session. With respect to the landowner, no person, what-
ever may be his opinion with regard to the nature or dis-
position of the property, would recognise in him any right
which would form any claim to it whatsoever. Here the
noble lord, perceiving that he was proceeding informally,
said his right hon. friend (Mr. Stanley) reminded him
of h:s mistake, as it was necessary that he should make
his motion in a committee of the whole house (A laugh);
he would, therefore, move the order of the day for
the house resolving itself into committee, which hav-
ing been done, the noble lord apologised for his mis-
take, which was owing to his anxiety in bringing
forward so important a question at so late an hour
of the evening. But to proceed. He was perfectly sa-
tisfied that in this part of the country there was no one who
considered the revenues of the church were more than ne-
cessary for its purposes, or than its circumstances required.
He was ready to admit that there were many who perhai s
with justice held different opinions as to the mode of that

revenue's d;stribution ; but he would still insist that the
neat majority did not look upon the amount of income as
more than necessary for the maintenan. e of the establish-
' ment. This he was certain was the opinion of those who
considered the existence of the church a necessary Lnd de-
sirable object ; and of such he believed a great majority of
the house to be composed. The landlords clearly had no
right to the tithes. Their properties, no matter whether
they were church of England men or dissenters, had been
acquired or purchased subject to the impost. Their portion
was nine-tenths ; upon the other tenth they had no claim.
And he believed that no complaint with regard to that por-
tion had been made by dissenting landowners. The pro-
posed measure was calculated to obviate the objections
which were made to one which he brought before the
house in the last session. It was calculated to afford relief
to the occupier of land in various ways. It would relieve
him from the litigation of which in the present form tithes
were so abundantly productive, and of the irritation which
naturally followed. This in itself would be no little benefit.
There was another species of relief of a pecuniary nature,
which would be most advantageously felt by the owners and
occupiers ofland. As thetithes were at present collected they
interfered with the outlays of capital, and prevented the em-
ployment of labour. The dislike of the impost, because of
the manner in which it was collected, and the vexation
consequent on it, was proved by the circumstance that
compositions had been entered into in many instances in
which if the tithe had been drawn in kind the owners
would have been losers. Indeed, those entering into the
compositions paid more than the amount of their tithes,
and therefore it was that the proposed measure Would be
found one of relief. The other mode in which the measure
would operate would be also found important by increasing
the outlay of capital, and the employment of labour, which
must certainly take place when the fear of increased pay-
ment for increased produce was removed. (Hear, hear. )
The plan which he proposed would yield to the owners of
this property a full equivalent—not for the legal claim, but
an equivalent founded on the customary payment, and
what would be considered as fair and equitable. To strike
a fair equivalent as regarded this sort of property, by
founding the standard on legal right, would be almost im-
practicable. It would be impossible to point out the
several modes by which circumstances varied its value.
(Hear, hear.) Amongst these the most obvious were the
distance of markets, the expense of carriage, and the com-
parative advantages of the soil. There was another matter
very difficult to be ascertained—the expense of collecting.
The opinion he held last year he still retained, and would
found his standard upon what had been hitherto paid, and
not on the present value of the land. The bill introduced
last session was, he contended, right in principle, though
he admitted in some points it was objectionable. It was
calculated to be of service to those owners of tithe property
who exacted their claims with the greatest severity, whilst
at the same time it might most probably have operatedinju-
riously on those who were liberal and conceding. In an-
other way, too, the bill of last session would be liable to
objection, inasmuch as it fixed the standard for ever by the
present valuation of the lands, not taking into account any
alterations which might take place, the result of which might
render such a standard unfair in one event to the land-
owner, and in another to the owner of tithes. There
were objections incident to the bill which he had previously
proposed, but which in his present proposition he endea-
voured to avoid. The principle he would go upon was one
which aimed at fixing the amount of tithe in proportion to
the rent of the land, and if the rent fell, the tithe should
fall in a similar degree. In stating that he would make
the rent a criterion, he felt that the proposition might open
the way to frauds, and as it was difficult by the rent to
ascertain the real value of the land, he would propose that
the owner, and not the occupier, should pay the tithe.
When he said the rent should be the standard, he did not
mean the rateable value, but the actual value, which, in
most instances could be ascertained by the rent. There
still were objections, and it might be urged that rent and
tithes did not bear exactly together. First a distinction
would be drawn between arable land and that which was
not arable ; but there would be no great difficulty in pro-
viding against this objection ; and in making the pro-
vision the house would be in a great degree assisted
and directed by the Enclosure Bill. The tithe should
be larger where the laud was arable, and lower
where it was under grass. Another difficulty, and
a much greater one lay in the way. The proportion
of tithe was larger where the rent was low than where it
was high; and pressed more heavily on those soils where
more labour was expended than on those of richer-quality
and greater produce. The principle ought to be, to grant
the advantage to the poorer soils. It was necessary that
he should define what he meant by arable land, and as such
he contemplated all such land as had been broken up for
five years. As he knew the people were generally desirous
for a commutation of tithe, he had of himself circulated a
series of questions, and had only ascertained by the replies
to them, that he could not, as he had at first hoped, apply
one scale generally to the tithe and rent through the en-
tire country ; in some parts it would cause an increase of
20 per cent., whilst in others it would occasion a reduc-
tion. The returns to his queries were not, to be sure,
very accurate ; but they were such as to convince him
of the impossibility of applying an unvarying rule.
In consequence of this, the course he should be com-
pelled to adopt must differ in different parts of the
country. He would have valuators in each county, to
ascertain the value of the arable and pasture land, and make
the average payment of the last five years the standard.
That when thus valued, he would have the valuation laid
before the quarter sessions, who would ascertain the pro-
portions, and then in each parish the particular tithe would
have the-same proportion to the rent of the land which the
whole tithe bore to the rent of the county. It had been
objected, last year, that it would be difficult in such a
commutation to include hops ; but in this proposition he
would consider ground laid out under hops as in the nature of
arable land. In this plan, too, it would be necessary to
provide reference to a barrister, as an arbitrator. He had
thus briefly stated the .general principles of his plan, and
the house would be able to perceive that an objection which
had been made to the bill of last year, on the ground of harsh-
ness in the collection, was done away with. He hoped
they would concur with him in thinking, that no individual
would feel any disadvantage arising from the present
measure. In his plan he would not interfere with any
existing right of moduses, though he would not now stay
to explain in what way he avoided the interference. The
measure which he now had the honour of proposing, was
relieved from the difficulties which attended the bill of
%last year. The objection that a fixed annual payment
would, under some circumstances, absorb rent and all, was
thus obviated, for here the tithe was only to be propor-
tionate to the rent. The bill further proposed to give a
power of redemption, and vested in the tithe payer the right
to demand from the impropriator, lay and clerical, the right
of redeeming the tithe at 25 years' purchase. He took that
as the standard whereby to enable the present possessor
to enjoy the same income by vesting the money in the
4 per cents. The mode of payment should be regulated by
a clerical commission, to which (as the matter related
purely to church property) no one could object. The
bishop, and those whom he nominated, should constitute
that committee. In order to facilitate this commutatioh, he
proposed, in case the tithe-payer did not find it convenient
to raise the money in order to purchase the tithe at once,
to allow him to make a charge on his land after the nature
of a mortgage, paying 41. per cent. interest ; such interest,
however, to be paid as a corn rent. This mortgage should
not be subject to foreclosure, and should only be redeem-
able at the option of the borrower. With respect to lay im-
propriators, he had greater difficulties to overcome. In
many instances it would not be very easy—in some not pos-
sible—for a person wishing to redeem the tithe to know
who the right proprietor was. In such cases it would not
be necessary to resort to a process which would involve
certain legal expenses. The money must be paid into the
Court of Exchequer, and only drawn from thence on satis-
factory proof of the ownership. These were the principles
of the measure which he had to propose. He was quite
aware that, in a measure of so complicated a nature—and
complicated it necessarily must be—it would be diffi-
cult for the house to follow him accurately, so as at once
and fully to understand the plan. Complicated, however,
as he was aware it was, he believed that the chief cause of
that complication was the difficulty of ascertaining in the
first instance the value of the land. When that was once
accomplished, he did not think there was anything to inter-
fere with the simple working of the measure. The taking of
tithe as a part of rent was not a new proposition. It was
one which was made when tithes were commuted in Scot-
land. But when tithes were commuted in that country,
they were commuted on worse terms to the landowners
than those now proposed. At that period the great feudal
proprietors had got possession of all the vicarial tithes by
grants from the Crown. An endeavour was made to recall
those grants, and at last they came to this arrangement,
that the proprietors of the land should pay to the feudal
and lay impropriator of tithes one-fifth of the rent of the
land, with power of redemption at nine years' purchase.
Certainly from the great alteration which had taken place
in the value of the land, and the small amount of rent paid
then compared with that paid in the present day, the effect
of such a mode of commutation was not not so disadvanta-
geous as might have been expected. To those gentlemen,
however, who said that the Scotch system got rid of the
tithes without a fair equivalent, he would say, that such
was not the case, for even more than a fair equivalent had
been given. He hoped and trusted that the effect of this
measure would be generally to produce a redemption of
tithes, and if such should happily be the case, he should
consider it as one calculated to confer the greatest possible
advantages on all classes of the community. (Hear, hear. )
p;itpbriertoesrpseetto
toindtbuece.
prtohpeomsitioton
neoffwectbethfoirse
Every possible facility should be given to the landed
ee mbpot osne.,
rethd
he had confined it simply to two resolutions—one de-
claring that the tithes should bear a certain proportion
to the rent, that proportion to be ascertained in
the different counties ; and another declaring that they
might be redeemed on payment of twenty-five years' pur-
chase. These propositions were, in the first instance,
sufficient, and on them he should ground his bill. He did
not apprehend that there could exist any objection to their
adoption. He would, before he concluded, mention that
he felt great regret at not being able to accomplish ow
hing. Most persons know that the collection of tithes ai
present imposed a species of hardship on the class of reli-
gionists called Quakers, whose conscientious scruples would
not permit them to pay tithes; and who uniformly submit-

ted to the inconvenience of being distrained upon for pay-
Tit( nt. He should have been
.glad if possible to
lif wet them from this inconvenience, hut he cou d not po
s'bly accomplish it, for without making this measure com-
pulsory, it would be if no rvo. ,uggestion ha I
made to him which he thought v. ty and very fit to be
introduced as a legislative enactment in some other mea
sure, viz., to give the clergy now in possession of glob,
lands the power of leasing them for a !onset term that
they possessed at present. He was aware that his state.
ment had been very imperfect, but the bill which he in-
tended to introduce would supply hon. members with all
the details. The noble lord concluded by moving reso-
lutions to the following effect :
,

Mist—That Inc coi;ction of tithes in England and Wal, •
shall cease and determine. That, instead of tithes, the owner
of tithe-land shall pay a fixe.i proport,on to the annual ral.
I hereof to the tithe-owner; and that such proportion shall h(
a•c rtained in the several counties

" Secondly-- that a I parties liable to such tithe may redeem
the same by the payment of a sum of money equal to 25 years
pumhase

Mr. BARING wished to ask the noble lord whether the
clergy were to be rated to the poor-rate in these payments
Lord ALTHORP said, that rent being diminished ii
consequence of the existence of poor-rates, and tithes de-
pending on the rent, tithes were already diminished on ac-
count of the poor-rate. If, therefore, they were agaii
rated to the poor-rate, they would be rated twice. (Hear.
It was his intention that the payments should be mad,
ate free.

Mr. BARING was not surprised that the noble lord
found great difficulty in the way of settling so complicate d
a question—a question which, either directly or indirectly;
involved the interests of all classes in the state—nor conk
he wonder that, under all circumstances, the noble lord wa.
not enabled to bring forward a measure, in the first in-
stance, clear and satisfactory. As far as he was concernes
he wished to postpone forming any opinion on the noble
lord's bill until he had seen what it really was. It migh
not be difficult to point out objections to any plan that
might be submitted, but feeling, as every body must feel
the extreme importance of settling this question, he hope(
that hon. gentlemen would not be very nice in looking a'
a measure which, whether they regarded it in a mora
point of view, or in reference to its religious operation, o
to its probable results on the agricultural interests of th
country, was of the utmost and extremest importance.
(Hear, hear, hear.) The noble lord had stated, an(
he perfectly agre with him, that the property o
the church, notwithstanding the prejudice that ha(
gone abroad on that subject, was not more thai
enough for her decent and proper maintenance. (Hear. )
Whatever opinions existed as to the propriety of its divi-
sion, or of the amount of what were called the sinecures of
the church, it was fully agreed that the total amount war
not more than was sufficient for the purpose. He was no'
aware whether there were any returns before Parliament
which set forth the revenues. It would, however, be
highly desirable that such a return should be made, not
that it would at all affect the decision of the question, for
even if it were shown that a surplus existed, the landowner
would still be bound to pay the tithe. The measure now
proposed varied materially from that of last year, and cer-
tainly differed from what he expected after what appeared
to be the general impression of the members of the agri-
cultural committee of last year. The impression of that
committee, or at least the impression upon his mind was.
that a valuation should be taken of the tithe in each,
parish, and that commutation should take place on the
footing of such valuation, with such deductions as it might
be deemed consistent with the interests of the church to
admit of. He hoped the noble lord would look thoroughly
into the measure, and weigh well all its details. He
should not object to the resolutions pro forma, but pro-
tested against being considered as bound or pledged by
them. He regretted, too, that the measure was brought
forward so late in the session, as they had but a very short
time to consider a measure of such great importance, more
especially one which would be likely to occupy some con-
siderable time in the other house, where -the clergy were
more particularly represented. ( Hear. )
Mr. GREENE considered that in agreeing to, the
house should not be held concluded by, the resolutions.
The plan required much consideration, for in many in-
stances they would find as much difference between one
parish and another as between one county and another.
I He should be obliged to the noble lord to state how he
would arrange as to the proportion of payments to the lay
rector and the vicar. He was sorry that lie was called on.
without due consideration, to affirm these resolutions. He
would much rather that the bill should have been introduced
in the first instance • and he certainly should not feel him-
self precluded from Lking any course which it might here-
after appear to him expedient to adopt.
Lord AL THORP said it had been his object to avoid
entering into details which could not yet be convenientl3
discussed, but which would be found to be provided for b 3
this bill. The resolutions would not pledge any hon:
member to the bill, nor even to its principles. With re-
gard to the specific question of the hon. member, he won't
say, that upon ascertaining the amount of tithes paid
nothing could be more easy than to ascertain what propor-
tion was paid to the rector and what to the vicar, and the
proportions would of course be observed in the payments.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY feared that the noble lord hat'
contrived to complicate the excellent principle of his bib
with provisions of a very involved nature. The noble lon,
had, he thought, involved himself in difficulties in conse-
quence of his having had recourse to voluntary communi-
cations, whereas, if he had trusted to his own business-like
mind, the measure which he had produced would have beer
much clearer and more satisfactory. What a complicated
and expensive machinery was called for by the bill ! The 3
were to have valuers of counties, and valuers of parishes,
and barristers as arbitrators, and what not. If the nobh
lord wishes to arrive at the value of the tithes, whether oi
a given property or of a whole county, or of a parish, lt.l
him apply to any auctioneer whose name figured in the co-
lumns of a newspaper, and he would put him in a mode o:
ascertaining the value of the tithes, great or small, arabl,
or pasture, and the required number of years' purchase, it
a very satisfactory manner, without any such complicate(
system of valuation. (Hear.) He apprehended that thit
bill would be shipwrecked by its honesty. (1A laugh.) It
did not recommend itself to any one branch of the com-
munity. The landlord would gain little by it. Fen
gentlemen would be disposed to buy the right to tithe.
fixed at their full value, and estimated at twenty-fly(
years' purchase. (Hear.) The community would gait
no benefit, for it was not even intimated that the 3
would get any surplus. The noble lord took frequei;
occasion to repeat what had been so often said, that flit
tithes of the country were not more than sufficient for the
maintenance of the national church. Now this was mat.
ter of opinion only. (Hear.) But why should it remain,
matter of opinion ? Why should it not be matter of fact 7
A commission had for some time been sitting, which com-
mission had acted in a spirit of great intelligence. They
had framed a seriewf questions, and he never read any ques-
tions more searchifig than those which they had propounded.
They were under four heads, directed to bishops, rectors,
corporations sole, and deans and chapters. 'There wen
from 16 to 25 questions, and if honest returns had beer.
made to them, the noble lord must have in his possession a
body of evidence not only highly valuable, but which would
at once prove his assertion if it were correct, and improve
the generally prevailing opinion that the revenues of the
national church (the property of which was not then under
discussion) were much more than was sufficient for it:
maintenance. Why should they at once close public ex-
pectation on this point ? He hoped that this important
question would remain no longer matter of speculation, btu
that the honk and the country would be supplied with tht
information which would at once set it at rest. ( Hear. )
The noble lord had truly said that this was a matter in
which the Dissenters took none other than a common in-
terest, whether tithe-owners or tithe-payers, but he war
apprehensive that when the bill came to be more fully ex-
amined by these whom it affected, it would not be con-
sidered by any one of its recommendations that it protected
the collection of the revenues of the church to their full
and extreme value. (Hear. )
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he was quite satisfied that
the noble lord was sincere when he said that he would not
consider the house as pledged by the adoption of these re-
solutions, but he could not understand how the house could
affirm these resolutions without being pledged to them, aid
to the principle involved in them, for the resolutions not
only contained the principle of restitution or specific pay-
ment of tithes, but even pledged them to the minutiae of
pointing out the number of years at which tithes were to
be purchased. If the resolutions were to be binding on no
one, why should any details be inserted at all? If the
noble lord must propose a resolution, on which to found a
bill, why not content himself with a single resolution,
begging leave to bring in a bill for the purpose of effecting
the commutation of tithes upon fair principles ? It ap-
peared to be a principle of the Irish bill, that counties
should form distinct territorial divisions, for the purposes o:
tithe commutation, and the average of tithe in each count)
was the average which was to prevail within each county.
The resolution, however, did not go on to say that it
should be made applicable to all the parishes, though such
he presumed was the intention. As the resolutions did not
go into full detail, he saw no reason why they should
go into any detail at all ; and he would ask the noble lord
whether he was acting wisely in saying the house should
not be bound by its own resolution, which was, in fact,
saying that the resolutions of that house were no more than
so much waste paper. It was hardly fair to call upon the
house at once to adopt these resolutions. Several points
must be clearly understood, before any man could form an
accurate judgment upon them. What connection was there
between the payment of tithes and the territorial division
of the kingdom into counties ? What would the conse-
s
aqnudentchees orfetlniti swsoyuistdembebfeo
d to ?un The
counties. In Devonshire and Kent, for instance, the pro-
portion which the tithe bore to the value of the land was
proportion
very
d different
betweent
in tdih effnteirt
different
much larger than in many other counties. Now, the effect
of the noble lord's bill would seem to be to fix the propor-
tion as it now existed in these counties for ever. This he
did not think right, for it by no means followed that the
present ratio should remain unaltered. The noble lord had
stated the manner in which he intended to deal with ga-
rishes in which moduses were established, and he cold(
easily understand that with regard to fixed payments, ii
would be_possib'e for the noble lord to wake such a ref. u-
lation. But the noble lord had said noth ng about the cis-
tinction between great tithes and small tithes. Was it

• ant that land now subject to small tithes to a certain
mount should pay tithe contribution on an average of tk e
great as well as the small tithes of the county? ..,uppose
adjoining parishes, one liable to great tithes, the other to
small tithes only, in what way would those parishes here-
after contribute to the tithe owner ? Was the small tithe
parish to pay as much as the other? If so, this bill would
certa nly give very little satisfaction to its parishioners.
how too, did the noble lord propose to deal with those
cases where the title to tithes was contested? Suppose a
case where tithe of milk was contested—how was that to
be decided ? It was said these payments were not to be
subjected to poor-rates. Now the sums which clergymen
would receive under the bill by way of redemption were I-
I ,wed to be invested in land. As a necessary consequt me
sat land should also be free from poor-rate. This, how-
ever, would have a most curious operation, since it would
then be for the advantage of the clergyman to per-
cla Ise that land. which paid the highest poor-rate, the
v due and rent of which were of course proportion-
ably reduced. Nor was it to be imagined that the other
i ihabitants of the parish would regard with coin-
,Jaaceney a measure which would thus tend to in-
.ease their burdens. These, it was true, were points of
Nail, but they were points on which every man ought to
hive clear knowledge before he was called upon to affirm
iese resolutions. He agreed with his hon. friend (Mr.
lazing) that they ought not to be too critical—but they
sight at least to have a fair interval for considering a mat-
tar of so much importance. He would put this qualifica-
Lon upon the proposition of his hon. friend, that though
they ought to be anxious for a speedy settlement of this
iuestion, yet that they should endeavour to settle it in such
a manner as to avoid the necessity for a future reconside-
mt.on of it. No one knew the value—no one could
no highly appreciate the valise of a voluntary settlement
of the question. The bill was to provide for the establish- ,
sent of an ecclesiastical corporation in each county, with
Bishop at its head, which was to receive money pay-
ments equivalent to the amount of tithe. He did net
.hink that, with such a corporation, they would have it in
their power to give great facilities for the voluntary Nam-
mtation of tithe. Instead of valuing and fixing a rate for
whole county, if they appointed valuers and arbitrators
t-ho would act between the tithe-payer and tithe-owner on
air principles, and whose character would insure them
eneral confidence with this corporation, to watch the ge-
eral interests of the Church, and with the incumbent and
he tithe-payer, each watching his own interest, such
arbitrators would have it in their power, with very little
d.fficulty, to arrange terms of redemption which should be
satisfactory to all parties concerned, and the great advan-
!age of such a systeni of commutation would be, that it
was voluntary, and that each particular case was decided
an its own circumstances. He did not wish to prejudge,
but he protested against being bound by these resolutions,
ether in detail or in principle.
Lord ALTHORP said, if the forms of the house would
have allowed him, he would have been happy to have
orought in the bill at once ; but it was necessary to pro-
dose in committee the resolution on which his bill was to
be founded. The house did not pledge itself on those reso-
lutions, but merely that a bill founded on them should be
brought in. With regard to the great and small tithes, a
similar arrangement might be made with regard to the m
as that to which he had already alluded with regard to
moduses and fixed payments. A deduction pro tanto
would be made from the proportion due from the land
liable to small tithes. We also understood the noble lord
to say, that he should have no objection to re-consider that
part of his proposition which went to exempt land, the
property of the Church, from the payment of poor-rates ;
and also to adopt words in his resolutions of a more general
nature than those in which they were at present couched.
Sir R. INGLIS said a few words, but the noise occa-
sioned by members and strangers leaving the house pre-
vented us from catching their import.
Mr. HUME expressed the deep regret with which he
had listened to the proposition of the noble lord, which
proposition, he was sure, would not give satisfaction to
any party out of that house. One of his principal objec-
tions to the proposed measure was, that it did not strike at
the root of the existing evil, namely, to compel the land
to pay tithe in proportion to the increasing value which the_
proprietor or holder of the soil was capable of giving to it.
Again, the payments ought to be in proportion to the qua-
lity of the soils, and on that point the noble lord ought to
look at the course which was adopted in Belgium, where
the soil was rendered liable .to the payment of tithe ac-
cording to quality, land of different qualities being sub-
fected to the payment of different amounts of tithe. He
denied, also, that there were any documents before the
house which bore the noble lord out in the assertion,
,hat there was no person who could assert that the exist-
mg payments of tithes were greater than those to whom
whey were made were entitled to. He could assure
he noble lord, that there were many persons who did
.ntertain that opinion. Before they proceeded to le-
rislate on the- subject, they ought to have the returns
which were to be made by the ecclesiastical commissioners,
Jr other information of a similar nature. In his opinion,
the suggestion of a voluntary commutation, made by the
right hon. member for Tamworth, was a very good one ;
and he thought that some bill, for the purpose of further-
.ng and giving effect to a general commutation of that de-
cnption might be advantageously passed in the present
session.

Lord ALTHORP denied the validity of the argument
Jf the hon: member for Middlesex with •respect- to the
operation of the proposed plan in preventing the applica-
.ion of capital to land. If any one thought that by such
an application of capital he could increase the value of his
Land, he had the option of redeeming his tithes at that low
fate which would not interfere with such a proceeding.
Mr. HUME observed, that he had in his possession a
petition from the market gardeners in the neighbourhood
,f London, praying to be protected from the evil respect-
ng tithes which he had just described, and which the noble
urd's proposition would perpetuate. As it was, nearly
very shilling which they laid out in the improvement of
heir land was, or would be, lost to them.

Mr. ESTCOURT was at a loss to know why the noble
,ord could not merely move for leave to bring in a bill for
.he commutation of tithes. That was a plan which would
,ledge no one to any particular proposition. There was
mother point on which he confessed he laid great stress ;
.ie meant the recommendation of his right hon. friend the
.nembcr for Tamworth, with reference to the voluntary
commutation of tithe. He (Mr. Estcourt) held that to
e of all modes of proceeding the best, and that it would be
,he only way of avoiding a variety of anomalies and evils
v;hich must attend every other eotuse. lie trusted, there-
fore, that the noble lord would introduce into his bill
clauses for encouraging and effecting the voluntary com-
mutation of tithes.

Lord ALTHORP said that in the first instance he had
intended to comprehend the voluntary commutation of
tithes in his measure, but the information which he had
subsequently received led him to think it desirable that die,
commutation should be imperative. He still believed,
however, that voluntary commutation might, to a certain.
extent, be advantageously resorted to. As to what had,
:alien from the hon.onember for Middlesex with respect
to the market gardeners, it should be recollected that the
tenant of improved land would not have to pay tithes upon
it. (An Hon. Member observed that he would have to
iiay an increased rent.) So he would if no tithes were
payable by any one.
Sir R. PEEL again urged the expediency of consider-
ing whether the principle of a voluntary arrangement be-
tween the payers and the claimants of tithes might not he
advantageously resorted to. he acknowledged, that if the
expense were to tall upon the immediate parties, that might
be an obstacle. But if commissioners of high character
were appointed by government, if the expense were borne
in some way or other by the public, and if parties were
►nvited to form such an arrangement as might atiect a per-.
mament commutation of tithes, with the power of redemp.
tion, he sincerely believed that great progress might be
made in effecting so desirable an object. It might be en,
acted, that in parishes where difference of opinion existed
on the subject, the decision of the majority should bind the
minority ; and, also, that if in the course of two years a
voluntary commutation could not be effected, power should
then be given to render the commutation compulsory. he
trusted, therefore, that if the noble lord should find any.
difficulty in passing this bill which he now proposed, in,
the present session, he would introduce another mea-
sure, recognising and sustaining the principle of voluntary
commutation.

Mr. BERNAL (the chairman of the committee) then
proceeded to read the amended resolution of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, as we have before endeavoured to gk.
it, when

Dr. LUSHINGTON said that, as one of the commis,
sioners appointed to inquire into the subject, he was
anxious to say a few words. He would not confine him-
self to speaking of canons and prebends, but he would refer
to the whole body of the clergy. Certain returns were
moved for and ordered by the house; but many of the
Jergy refused to give information, and hence the returns
,could not be fully digested so as to •be placed upon the
table of this house. It. also unfortunately happened that
several of the queries of the commissioners were mistaken,
and hence, it was impossible for the commissioners to come
to any decided opinion. But while he was now addressing
,he house, he believed that the necessary returns were in
the hands of the respective diocesans ; and no dcrabt when
the returns were complete, the bishops would make returns
to the commissioners, and the commissioners would lose no .
time in laying them before the house. Here he would only
add, that from all he had heard, and all the returns he had
seen, the whole revenue of the church was not too great for
the respectable maintenance of the clergy of the established
church, although the inequality of the present distribution of
that revenue might be a matter of grave consideration.
Even if the bishops were exterminated to-morrow, or
deans and chapters got rid of, yet would he say that the
sums received by the parochial clergy were scarcely suffi-
cient—at all events not more than sufficient for their decent
maintenance. It would be premature to enter into the
proposed measure of the noble lord at the present moment
—it was adinitted, however, upon all hands, that a com-
mutation of tithes had now become a measure of aLsolute
necessity. He was quite aware that ten years ago such a
reposition would have sound but few supporters ; btu now
le thought it vt•as in unison with the opinions of the pko-
ple, and sure he was, at the same time, that sine stich
measure was actually necestary. He dei recated al at :a
valuation. Let an estimated account be taken of the

if land in England and Wales. He agreed %kb the hon.
baronet in many of ..,ker.ations. He hoped that
some measure would be devised by which an amicable
commutation of tithes would be brought about, and that
his hon. friend would introduce into his bill some measure
to effect that object. At present many difficulties might
be suggested in the way of attaining that object, but when
the measure was fairly before the house, they would, he
trusted, be completely insignificant, and in the end entirely
obviated.

-Mr. PARROTT agreed in the principle of the resolu-
tion, and thought the plan suggested by the noble lord
much better than the plan suggested by the hon. member
for Middlesex. As far as he could understand it, it would
be a great improvement upon the present system. He
objected, however, to the exemption of the tithe-owner
from the payment of rates.
Colonel WOOD doubted very much whether the ques-
tion could ever be settled without a parochial valuation.
Many parishes had recently been valued for tithes, en-
closures, and other purposes ; no less than 2,300 had re-
cently been valued under Enclosure Acts, so that 1-6th of
the arishes of the country had commuted for tithes. The
small tithes, in whatever parishes they were, were a prin-
cipal source of collision between a clergyman and his flock,
and unless these were a parochial, instead of a county va-
luation, it would be impossible satisfactorily to adjust the
question. He was glad to see that his Majesty's Govern-
ment had taken the matter into their own hands.
Mr. BLAMIRE was anxious to know whether the
noble lord's plan would contain any proposition to prevent
tithe disputes. Perhaps it might be premature to ask the
question, but he hoped that some provision would be in-
serted in the bill with respect to that point.
Mr. FRYER thought the present discussion was alto-
gether unnecessary. He was convinced that the clergy-
men of Great Britain received a great deal less than they
were entitled to. It was the lay impropriator who wanted
compulsion. The clergy wanted no compulsion. If the
government only gave facilities to the clergy to commute
tithes, there would be no difficulty in getting them to do it
to-morrow morning. Look to the petition from the county
of Stafford; that showed that the clergy were not selfish.
The clergy of England were honourable men, and acted as
such in all cases ; and although he was a radical reformer,
he would support the Church of England. The lay im-
propriators were the men who would exact more than the
pound of flesh. He would say, " Never let the clergyman
come upon the tenant. Let him go to the landlord; let
the landlord bring the money to the church door, and let
him even sell his land." The tenant might then pay the
landlord the same sun of money that he paid now to the
clergyman. Every member ought to agree that this bill
should be brought in, though he should prefer its being
separated into two bills. He wished to relieve the clergy
f..om the odium which was at present cast upon them, and
make them happy and contented.
Mr. FINCH observed that it was said there was a gene-
ral desire for the composition of tithes, whereas there were
large tracts of country where no such desire existed. He
thought that if the noble lord wished to give satisfaction to
the land-owners, he would make the commutation compul-
sory on the landlord, but in every case where it took place,
it should be on fair and equitable principles. As to the 25
years' purchase, he thought that was highly objectionable.
No plan could be presented that would give satisfaction, but
that of a voluntary commutation. In three weeks' time it
would be found that there would be a general outcry against
any other plan.
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE said that the circum-
stances of each parish, and of every county, were perfectly
distinct. The counties in the north were as distinct as it
was possible to be. It was necessary that the circumstances
of each parish should be taken into consideration, and that
an arrangement should be made for each parish separately.
It was generally understood what was meant by great
tithes ; but yet there were few parishes in which great
tithes practically meant the same thing. A voluntary ar-
rangement would be extremely desirable, but if that volun-
tary arrangement were to be followed up by a compulsory
arrangement, the voluntary arrangement never would be
adhered to. He disapproved of the plan of throwing upon
the Quarter Sessions the odium of making this arrange-
ment. He wished to know whether it was necessary to
apportion the different amount of tithes to the amount of
rents.

Lord ALTHORP said that no odium would be thrown
upon the magistrates at quarter sessions. All that the
Court of Quarter Sessions would have to do would be to
prepare a return, and ascertain what proportion the tithes
bore to the land, and, having ascertained that, to declare
it. When the tithe of a county was established, it was his
intention that it should never be altered—that was to say,
the proportion the tithe rent bore to the value of the land
should always remain the same. Certainly, if the value of
any particular portion of land altered, the tithe would alter
also, and if the tithe-receiver thought the rent of the land
was not a fair valuation, he might demand a valuation at
his expense.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know whether, if land should
become more valuable in consequence of the neighbour-
hood of a rail-road, the tithe would be increased in propor-
tion. Suppose land worth 50s. an acre became worth 501.
an acre, would the tithe increase in proportion ?
Lord ALTHORP said that, in that case, the-owner of
the land having the same privilege as the tithe-receiver,
would demand a valuation, because the rent would not be a
fair test. . .

Mr. WILLOUGHBY protested against the principle
adopted in the original resolution, that there was any ne-
cessary connection between tithes and rent ; for it was
clear that land might pay tithe and pay no rent at all. If
there was no connection between rent and tithe, he
doubted the policy of making the proportion of rent which
was payable the basis of the measure. To suppose that
the case of the lay impropriator differed from that of the
holder of other property, was to assume a proposition
wholly without foundation. He trusted that in any mea-
sure which the noble lord might produce, he would not
forget the mode of commuting tithes for land. He had no
objection to the resolution, except so far as it went to com-
mute an annual for a permanent payment.
Mr. ROLFE concurred in the plan proposed by the
noble lord. It was satisfactory that it did not embrace
more than one mode of getting rid of the tithe. It was
clear that every mode was within the scope of this bill.
As to the rent, what was meant by that was the ascer-
tained value, by agreement, of the parties. He trusted
that when the measure was more properly understood it
would meet with the approbation of the house and of the
country.
3lr. F. LEWIS observed that, in many counties, the
average would fall heavier on rich than on poor lands. He
had long desired to see such a measure as the present, and
he wished the noble lord success in his attempt. If the
noble lord could adopt anything like a general system which
should hang over all, and to which both parties could re-
sort as an ultimatum, a voluntary arrangement might be
effected under the threat of that compulsion ; and he was
sure such a regulation would be productive of very benefi-
cial effects.

Lord EASTNOR thought that a specific sum of 10s.
on every acre as a general plan, was not likely to give sa-
tisfaction.

Lord ALTHORP said a few words in explanation, which
were not heard in the gallery.
Mr. JERVIS observed that no notice was taken in the
noble lord's plan of tithes upon wages, upon eggs, pigs, and
other things, which pressed very severely upon the poor.
He thought that these things ought to be included in any
measure on the subject. He had one objection to the mode
of taking averages. A parish, or even a field, might be in
two different counties, and the tenants might be obliged to
pay one sum for one corner of a field so situated, and a dif-
ferent sum for another corner. A fluctuating system of
tithes would check the improvement of land, by preventing
the investment of money. To the measure itself, however,
he gave his cordial assent.

Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the noble lord would alter the
provision which related to investing in land the money to
be paid to the ecclesiastical commission, because the clergy
having only a life interest in the land, would not be likely
to take much pains for its improvement on the speculation
of surviving 21 years.
T. FREAIANTLE wished to suggest to the noble
lord that it would be desirable to introduce a provision to
enable parties to purchase tithes, by paying down a sum of
inoney in the same way as the land tax was redeemed. It
mrouN be the object of parties to do so, because they would
get clear four per cent, for their money. He was quite
sure that if this were considered an advisable provision,
means might be found for carrying it into effect.
The res4ution was agreed to.
Mr. BARING expressed a hope that the noble lord
would bring in the bill as soon as convenient, in order that
the house might be enabled to see what its provisions ac-
tually were.
Lord ALTHORP said he was not sure that he should be
able to present the bill to-morrow night, but he was pretty
sure he should be able to bring it in the night after.
The house then resumed. The report of the committee
of supply was brought up, but Mr. HU3IE objected to the
public money being voted after twelve o'clock, and the re-
port was consequently ordered to be taken into further con-
sideration on Friday next.
The house adjourned at a quarter after one.

Lord and Lady William Russell, and family,
are expected to arrive at the residence of Lord John
Russell, at Whitehall, to-day, from the Duke of Bed-
ford's seat at Endsleigh, near Tavistock, where his
lordship proceeded after landing from the Lightning
steamer at Plymouth. Some of the domestics of Lord
William reached town yesterday, as well as Lieutenant-
Colonel Hare, one of his lordship's attach As. Lord
William left England in May 1832, for Lisbon, so that
he has been absent very nearly two years.

The Prince de Ligne, and the Marquises
d'Overchies and Trazegnies, whose mansions were de-
vastated at Brussels, have just arrived at Paris.

SOW
Baron Ompteda, the Hanoverian resident
minister, is expected to return from Vienna about the
Ist of the ensuing month, as the conferences in that
city are about being brought to a close. The accounts
at the Austrian embassy state that the diplomatiEts
have held daily sittings during the last month.

FRENCH PAPERS OF MONDAY

CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES.—Sirriso or APRIL 14

M. Dupin, President, in the chair.
A great number of Deputies were present. Imme-
diately ofter the adoption of the proces-verbal of the
preceding sitting,
M. Andre Koeklen ascended the tribune, and said—
Gentlemen, some of the journals have contained some
pretended expressions of mine relative to a pretended
insurrection at Beffort. I wish to declare to the
Chamber, that all the incidents relative to the subject
contained in the Paris papers are altogether false.
The Minister of Public Instruction—Gentlemen,
the government has already informed the Chamber and
the public, that the report spread abroad of an iusurrec-
Loa at Beffort was completely false. I shall, added
the Minister, with the permission of the Chamber, say
a few words upon what has taken place in the capital.
( Profound silence.) The day before yesterday we
made the Chamber acquainted with the state of Lyons.
The morning after we acquired the fullest certainty
that those unfortunate events had terminatedin a man-
ner the most favourable for public order. We may
now affirm that all danger is over at Lyons. Depl-
orable as these events have been, they will at least serve
to convince the country that no person or persons shall
attempt with impunity to disturb public order, or op-
pose public force. At the moment that we acquired
this certainty, scenes of an analogous nature were
begun to be acted in Paris. I say analogous, though
they bore something of a different character. We
expected to find at Paris, as at Lyons, an attempt at
insurrection—a commencement of civil war ; but we
have witnessed only the murderous efforts of a band of
assassins. ( From the centres " Yes, yes.")
Mr. Salvandy—lnfamous assassins.
The Minister of Public Instruction—lt is impos-
sible to characterise otherwise what has taken place
yesterday evening. (From the centre, " Yes, yes,
'tis true.") A band of assassins concealed themselves
in houses and behind barricades, and when the troops
came forward they saw no enemy to encounter, whilst
these concealed murderers fired upon and assassinated
them. (General and loud cries of assent from the
centre.) This was the character of the events of yes-
terday. It is the last degree of degradation of a po-
litical party (from the centre, " Yes, yes") ; but it
should not the less call for the solicitude of the Go-
vernment and the Chamber. I assure you that the
most serious object of the attention of the Government
is the framing of measures that shall for ever prevent
the recurrence of such odious excesses. (" Bravo"
from the centre.) Upon-this point you may expel
every doubt from your minds. Nevertheless, lively as
our sentiments may be on this occasion, nothing
should be done lightly or abruptly. It is necessary
' that the Government and the Chamber should maturely
consider what is best to be done. Let the Chamber
be assured, that as far as the Government is concerned,
the materials of judgment will diminish in no measure
its energy. The Government will not be wanting in
any way to its duty, but in the exercise of which it will,
whilst respecting constitutional liberty, the palladium
of our future prosperity, it will adopt measures, in
concurrence with the Chambers, that shall for ever
put an end to the machinations of those agitations with
which we are perpetually threatened. ( The entire
centre, " Bravo I" Some voices, '6 Five le Roi
The President—A great number of Deputies have
expressed a wish to repair to the palace to testify to the
King their sentiments upon what has taken place in
Paris. If the Chamber wishes, the sitting shall be
suspended until their return. ( Several voices, " Yes,
yes !")
The President left the chair, and the deputies, with
the exception of Messrs. Berryer, Laffitte, Audre de
Puyraveau, Briqueville, Chasseries de Moulsville, &c.
(in all 7 or 8), quitted the Chamber.