The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-03 00:00:00

FRANCIS L: DILLON.

The SPEAKER ordered the Sergeant-at-Arms to have
the medical man called in, and on his entrance, asked him
if he had seen Francis Dillon.

Mr. Lay.iA—l have, Sir.
The SPEAKER—In what state did you find him ?
Mr. Laveis—ln good bodily health, but perfectly
incoherent.

The SPEAKER—Does he still continue in that state?
Mr. Las, is—He still labours under mental delusion.

The SPEAKER—You may withdraw.
Lord ALTHORP said that alter the evidence of the
medical gentleman, he should move that the prisoner be
dismissed without the payment of fees.
Mr. O'CONNELL expressed his fears that the unfor-
tunate person at the bar had no friends to protect him,
and that he had come to London on some idle speculation.
He had frequently called on him, bur he (Mr. O'Connell)
had not been able to ascertain the precise object be had in
view.

The SPEAKER informed the House that he had had
a communication with the Right Hon. the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, who hail ordered that
an officer of police should be in attendance, to afford the
Prisoner every protection after he was discharged from the
custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, if the House should
so determine. The case of this man was similar to that of
a person in just the same state of meival delusion, who
had made a great vi,ciferation from the gallery, and who
the House determined should be passed over to the safe
custody of his friends.
Lord ALTHORP moved that Mr. Francis L. Dillon he
dismissed from the custody of the Sergeant-at-Ar►rts with-
hut the payment of fees, which the House decided in the
affirmative, and the prisoner was ordered to withdraw.
LONDON AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY.

Sir E. 1). SCOTT moved the third reading of the
London and Birmingham Railway Bill.
After a short desultory conversation respecting the in-
troduction of a new clause, which was inaudible in the
gallery, the further proceedings on the Bill were ordered
to be postponed until to-morrow.
Several notices, on the names of the Members who were
to bring them forward to day being called by the SYEAKEIL,
were postponed.
To a question from Mr. W. PATTEN,
Lord ALTHORP said the discussion on the Irish
church temporalities was not, technically speaking, an
adjourned debate ; it was merely that the Chairman bad
reported progress, and asked leave for the Committee to
sit again on the same subject. There was nothing
on the paper for to-morrow to prevent the Honourable
Member (Mr. Patten) from bringing forward the mo-
tion of which he had given notice ; if it came
on to-night, it would last all night to the exclusion of the
Irish Church business, and if it were brought on to-
morrow, it would last all night. If it were put to him
(Lord Althorp) whether he would wish the motion of the
Hon. Member to be brought forward to night or to-mor-
row night, he should certainly prefer the latter.
Mr. W. PATTEN was anxious to conlorm to the
wish to postpone his motion until to-morrow, if he could
be assured by the Noble Lord that he could have to-
morrow for that purpose.
Lord ALTHORP knew of no impediment to its being
brought forward to-morrow ; indeed, he thought it advi-
sable that it should be disposed of before the holydays.
Mr. PATTEN then postponed his motion until to-
morrow.

A petition from John Wilkinson and another was pre-
sented, against the return for the borough of Marylebone,
which was ordered to be taken into consideration on the
21st of May.
SEIZURE OF SOAP.

Mr. Alderman WOOD wished to know if his Majesty's
Government had beard of a considerable seizure of soap
that bad taken place on board a large stem] vessel, bound
for Ireland, which had been sent there for the purpose of
receiving the drawback. If so, he wished to know whe-
ther it was the intention of Government to prosecute the
parties.

Lord ALTHORP believed that a considerable seizure
had taken place, and that Government were determined
to proceed against the parties.
POLITICAL UNIONS.

Sir JOHN TYRRELL, in putting the question of
which he had given notice last,night to the Noble Lord,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, stated, that he felt it
due to his Majesty's Government and the Hon. Member
who had brought forward the charge against a Member
of his Majesty's Government, that he should adopt this
course, and that some satisfactory answer should be given
to that charge, not only by the Noble Lord opposite, but
by the Government. If the statements of that Hon.
Member were correct, it was incumbent on his Majesty's
Government to give some explanation on the matter.

Lord ALTHORP said, that although the Hon. Mem-
ber opposite bad given notice of putting a question to him,
he bad asked him no question whatever—(A laugh)—
hut front what he had stated last night, he perfectly un-
derstood what the Hon. Member requested. He wished
to know whether the statement which had been made
by the Honourable Member for Tralee, that one
of his Mdjesty's Ministers had franked fifty letters
during the period he was out of office—during
the period of the change of the Administration, if it might
be so called—in older to excite the poli•ical unions to peti•
tion for their ►eturn to Parliament was true. The Hon.
Member had most frankly stated that he would tell him
(Lord Althoip) which of bis colleagues it was, and upon a
subsequent occasion he bad been informed it was Earl
Grey. Now he (Lord Altborp) had asked that Noble
Lord whether the charge that had been made against
him was true, and he had stated to him most positively that
be had not franked any-letters at all at that time. He
bad also spoken to Earl Grey's private secretary, who 'had

stated that he had no recollection of having franked any
letters of the nature alluded to. He admitted, however,
that it might be possible that he had franked two or three
letters for persons who had requested him so to do, but
he was not aware in the slightest degree of the contents
of the letters, but to the best of his belief he had not
franked any letters at the period at all.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that his authority was that
of a gentleman who could be produced at the bar of this
House, who told him that Mr. Joseph Parks, a notorious
leader of the Birmingham union, had several franks given
him, signed " Grey ;" that they were official franks;
that they were blank covers, and he was going to write
lytters in them to the different political unions.

Lord ALTHORP said that the statement of the Hon.
Gentleman completely exonerated his Noble Colleague,
who, it was well known to many gentlemen, when he
gave frank., did not give official franks. He begged also
to correct the statement the Hon. Member had made with
respect to Mr. Park., who so far from being a leader of
the Birmingham political union, was not even a member
of it.

Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL—It was stated to me
that he was.

Lord ALTHORP—I know Mr. Parks very well, and
believe that he is n,,t a member of the union.

Mr. CHARLES WOOD, during the last two years
knew that a number of addresses had been sent up to Lord
Grey from political unions, and he, as private secretary to
Earl Grey, bad simply acknowledged the receipt of these
addresses, and no more. To the best of his recollection
he had never used an expr,ssion in any of his letters,
implying the existence of political unions. 'With
the exception of letters so written, he had never franked
a letter to the member of any political union, or given
a frank, either in his own name or that of Earl Grey,
to any individual, knowing him to be a member of any
political union.
Sir JOHN TYRRELL—He trusted he should not he
considered impertinent, if, in addition to what he
had already said, he added that it was currently reported
that there were some Member of his Majesty's Go•
vernmen!, who were also members of political
unions; and he begged to move for a return of
the Members of the Government who were also members
of political unions.—(Loud laughter.) Farther, in order
to elucidate the point immediately before the House, be
begged to move that Mr. Parks be called to the Bar.
The motion having been seconded, amidst loud laughter
and c.mfosi,m,

Mr. HENRY GRATTAN said that the return would
not be complete unless the Hon. Member sor Essex added
to it a list of those members of his Majesty's 0 position,
as it bad been called, who were also members of the
Conservative Club.—(Laud laughter.) Bur, to be se-
rious, was it fitting that the time of the House should
be occupied in putting his Majesty's Government upon
trial, because some franks had been kindly given to
particular individuals?
An Hort. MEMBER, congratulated the Hon. Member,
for Essex, upon the cock-and•a-bull story—(A laugh)—
he had picked up for the foundation of his motion, but
submitted that the House would not only make itself ridi-
culous in the eyes of the country, but worse by thus wast-
ing time which ought to be given to the di-acussion of their
grievances.
Mr. O'CONNELL begged to remark that the state-
ment of the Hon. Member for Tralee had not been made
as a matter of charge against the Government.

Lord ALTHORP said that he did not consider the
charge of a very grave nature, and at all events it was
quite without foundation.
Sir J. TYRRELL would not persevere in his motion,
although he could not help thinking that there was sorf
lurking folly somewhere.

Lord ALT[IORP brought up certain papers relative to
the Poor Laws Committee. He was sorry he had not
been able to lay before the House the report of the Com-
missioners, and the papers he had now laid on the table
were only minutes of evidence which that Committee had
selected.

Mr. O'CONNELL wished to take that opportunity
to set himself right in the opinion of the House. It bad
been his intention to move for the appointment of a Com-
mittee to inquire into a practical and efficient system of
poor laws for Ireland, but having since had an opportunity
of seeing the extracts now laid on the table, he should add,
that it would be impossible for him to make any motion
to that effect, or give his actpiescence to any system of
poor laws for a country that, amid all its misfortunes, had
hitherto had the good luck of avoiding them. He was
sure when the papers now laid on the table were read,
this would be the prevalent opinion on the subject.
_ _ _ _ _

Mr. RICHARDS said he was more confirmed in hie
opinion than ever as to the expediency and necessity of in.
troducing some measure of the nature of a poor law to
provide for the indigent of Ireland. The Hon. Member
then gave notice of a motion for calling the attention of
the House to the subject on the 7th of M y next.
Mr. HUME said, as the Hon. Member had given no-
tice of a motion on so important a suhj. et, be begged
him to acquaint himself fully with the evils connected
with the present system of poor laws in Ene land, and
apply himself to their correction, before he attempted to
impose a similar system on Ireland.
Colonel WOOD hoped the Hon. Member would per-
severe in his motion, and he might assure himself of his
(Colonel Wood's) most cordial support.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said there was a great diffe-
rence between introducing a new and unobjectionable system
and amending an old system, under which many abeses
and grievances existed. He did not despair of accom-
plishing the former in reference to Ireland : but still it
required great investigation and caution, and he hoped
that the House would not hastily legislate on the subject.
Mr. PEASE would be glad if there were something
like a ch finite plan before the House, for the relief of the
poor in Ireland. Al Members seemed to agree that some
system of poor laws tor that country might be found to be
practicable, but none of them agreed in any definitive plan.
He hoped the Hon. Member for C.rnarven would not
turn back, but would persevere in bringing before the
House some plan upon which the opinion of the House
might be taken.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN said it was indeed time that
some positive steps should be taken, that rags, and disor-
der, and misery might no longer go on accumulating.
The Hon. Member for Dublin could not go out with his
family, from his house in Merrion-square, without being
beset by a crowd of squalid and miserable people, in the
utmost state of wretchedness. These poor creatures no
longer ask for charity, but, after giving a double knock at
the door, cloy force themselves into the house, and almost
insisted upon being satisfied. He (Mr. Grattan) occupied a
house and two acres of land in the county of Surrey, and
paid more to the support of the poor than the Lord-Lieu•
tenant of Wicklow did in that country with an income of
50,000/. per anouto.—(Hear.) If the union of the two
countries was to be supported, it should be by snaking its
good laws equal.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord might carry
measures 'to put down political disturbances, but what
would he do with the disturbances of starvation? The
Hon. Member made some observations relative to what bad
fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite which brought up
Sir ROBERT PEEL, who was proceeding to speak
upon the subject of poor laws for Ireland, when
Mr. RICHARDS rose to call the light Hon. Baronet
to order—(Oh, oh)—as he was speaking upon a subject
which was not regularly before the House.—(oh, and
Order, order.)
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Member was at liberty
not to go into the subject himself, if he were so disposed.—
(Hear.) But be would advise the Hon Member not to
Lear only the arguments on one side of the question.—
(Hear, bear.) He (Sir R Peel) thought that the time
was now arrived when the whole of the matter should be
gone into, and the views of every gentleman subjected
to a severe scrutiny. His advice to the Government
would be not to do any thing until they had the report
and had maturely examined it, and that the Commission
he composed of men of the highest character, whose
talents and impartiality would be a guarantee that every
endeavour would be made to alleviate the condition of the
Irish poor, and to see how far the English laws could be
applied to Ireland.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

The Usher of the Black Rod entered the House, and
summoned it to the Bar of the House of Lords to hear his
majesty's Commission read. The Speaker and several
Members then proceeded to the House of Lords, and on
their return, the Right Hon. Gentleman informed the
House that his Majesty had given his Royal Assent by
Commission to several Bills—(for which see the Lords'
report).
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House re-
solved itself into a Committee on the Church of Ireland
Reform Bill.

Lord ALTHORP, in rising to move the second reso-
lution, wished 'to make a few observations to the Com-
mittee. In the discussion of last night the Right Hon.
Baronet had applied himself to the resolution now to be
moved. The Right Hon. Gentleman objected to imposing
any tax on the present incumbents, in order to relieve the
people of Leland from the vestry cess. When be first
made the proposition, inquiry had been made by his Ma-
jesty's Government, and the result he understood was, that
some of the clergy of Ireland felt every objection to the tax
being .imposed on them. His Right Hon. Friend, who
was not at present a Member of the House, had autho
rind bim to state, in his name, that he bad had several
conversations with the Irish clergy on.ibe subject, and

the result was this—he was about to quote his Right Hon.
Friend's words. The Noble Lord accordingly read a paper
to Vie following effect :—" Ie all the conversa•ions I have
had with the Primate and with the clergy, there never has
been any objection taken which should preclude us from
imposing the tax. The subject was often discussed,
and the Primate expressed a wish that the parochial clergy
should be spared, and the tax should fall on the Bishitps."
He had, therefore, reason to believe, when he brought
forward the proposition, that the clergy would not
object to it, and on this foundation he had expressed a
hope that they would not. It now turned out, undoubt-
edly, that the clergy had objections, at least that many of
the clergy objected tr to the tax proposed. —(Hear, hear.)
He was ready to say, that if any other mode of relieving
the people of Ireland from the vestry cess could he dis-
covered, he should admit that it might be proper to listen
to the Right Hon. Baronet's suggestions, and not tax tl e
clergy. At the same time it was of such immense itn-
portance that the vestry cess should be done away, for the
interest of the established church itself, and even to secure
the existence of that church, that he did not think his
proposition a hardship, and could not suppose that the
proposition of his Majesty's Government denerved the
character of tending to subvert that church.—( Hear,
hear.) It should be observed, that the resolution did not
impose the tax upon the present incumbents. He was
ready to say, that on considering the question, if the Go-
vernment could find any means of providing for that (less,
ant not tax the incumbents at all, the Government would
gladly avail itself of it.—(Hear, hear.) He must further
state, that be should object to the amendment proposed.
At the same time, by adopting the resolutions, the House
would not be precluded, if it thought proper, in the future
stages of the Bill, from altering the proposed tax. With
respect to the question or the Right Hon. Gentleman as
to the parochial clergy. the Committee would observe, that
the tax could fall exclusively on them, but also on the
hierarchy, ana therefore that argumentem ad misericor-
diam of the Right Hon. Gentleman slid not apply. In
conclusion he might add, chat it was so necessary to re-
lieve the people of Ireland from the vestry cess, that if no
better method could he found of relieving them, he should
hope the Committee would adopt the proposition of his
Majesty's Government. He must add, in reply to a
remark of the Right Hon. Member for Montgomery, that
be bad no objection to attach the schedules at the end of
the Bill to this resolution.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL hoped the Noble Lord concurred
in his views, that it the vestry cess ought to be abolished,
it ought not to be impt,sed on the present incumbents.
If the Noble Lord concurred in that, he would ask him
not to force the Committee to come to a division. The
Noble Lord said that the removal of the cess was neces-
sary, but lie believed the Noble Lord had overrated the
burden. The Noble Lord stated it at 60,0001 ; but let
the Noble Lord inquire further, and he would find the
exclusive vestry cess not so much. Let the Noble Lord,
too, above all, consider that it was not necessary to pass
the resolutions immediately. Perhaps, if the vestry cess
were abolished immediately, the Noble Lord could provide
for it by a vote of public money.—(Lord Althorp was
understood to say across the table that he meant to do
that.) Why, then, if the Noble Lord intended it, let
him not hasten the question to decision—let him not make
it a party dispute. He was ready to meet the Noble Lord
half-way. Ail he asked at present was, that the Noble
Lord should grant them a short delay. Let the Noble
Lord withdraw the resolutions, and introduce them after
the recess, and after an opportunity of fully considering
the subject. He was ready to concede the principle, that
tt vestry cess should be abolished, and a provision made
.r them out of the revenues of the church ; but he asked
for delay, and that the Government should take time to
consider and propose a proper substitute.

_ .
L,ird ALT HORP believed there was then an under-
standing between him and the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that the amendment should not be moved. He proposed
that they should assent to the resolutions, and that provi.
Sion should be made hereafter that those resolutions should
not be carried further than the suggestion of the Right
Hon. Gentleman.

Sir R. PEEL hoped the Noble Lord, as a Minister of
the Crown, would expressly admit, that all existing inte-
rests should be exempted. If that were the case, he was
little inclined to stickle for forms, and should advise his
lion. Friends to permit the resolutions to pass, with the
understanding that they should not be restricted in pro-
posing any alterations in the Bill they thought proper
hereafter.
Mr. C. W. WYNN called the attention of the Noble
Lord to the inconvenience of voting a tax before they
knew its amount. It would be better, in his opinion, to
delay the whole matter till after the holydlys.
_ _

Lord ALTHORP reminded his Right Hon. Friend that
the second resolution referred also to the amount of small
livings as well as to the vestry cess. With respect to
pledging the Government on this subject, the Rght Hon.
Gentleman was aware he could not do that; but he would
say—and the Right Hon. Gentleman would understand
the force of what he said—that he would take his sugges-
tions into the most favourab!e consideration.

Mr. SHAW wished the Noble Lcrd to make an excep.
tion in the resolution in favour of the present incumbents.
The Noble Lord estimated the exclusive vestry cess at
60,0001. Ile bad carefully calculated it, and could say,
that tue whole amount of the exclusive vestry cess appli-
cable to ecclesiastical purposes did not exceed 28,0001. It
was ❑ot above 281. for each church. As to another means
of providing for this, he would suggest that a sum of
400,0001. should be placed in the hands of the Board of
First Fruits that might be put out to interest, and, with
the deductions from the bishopric of Derry, might answer
the purpose. He could not acquiesce in the principle of
the resolution, because it was a violation of church pro-
perty. _

Lord ALTHORP said, that as to the suggestion of the
Hon. and L”arned Gentleman who had just sat down, he
certainly was no' prepared to aeree with him at all.
Mr. GOULBURN would sacrifice all the objections
which he had to other parts of the Noble Lord's prop°•
sition, and they were many, if the Noble Lord would
make the sacrifice to him on the present occasion, that ex-
isting interests should not be taxed. He wished to avoid
50 maul est an injuqice.
Lord ALTHORP was surprised that the Right Hon.
Gentleman, knowing the peculiar situaion in which he
was placed, should press him to say more than he had
done.—(Cheers.)
Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought the gentlemen opposite
ought to be satisfied with what the Noble Lord had
air• ady stated.
Mr. SHAW felt grateful to the Noble Lord for the
concession he had already made—and he certainly bad
been much mistaken if the House appreh:nded it was his
intention to press his suggestion to a diviilon.

Mr. GOULBURN would consent to the resolution
passing in its present shape if the Noble Lord would pro.
wise to take it into consideration, and let the discussion
take place in bringing up the report.
Mr. HUME hoped the Noble Lord, after the candid
statements which he bad already made, would pledge him-
self no further.—(Hear, bear.) One great error pre-
vailed throughout this discussion—that of considering the
clergy as the church instead of the congregation.—(Hear.)
When there was no congregation, no allowance ought to
be made. He agreed that this resolution should pass
in its present state, and he was sure, that after the state-
ment made by the Noble Lord, the gentlemen below might
Place full confidence in him. In making these conces-
sions, however, he called upon the Noble Lord to remem
her that he was strictly watched by two different classes
of attentive spectators ; and whilst he sought to conciliate
Hon. Gentlemen by yielding certain paints, others might
imagine he was yielding too much.
Lord ALTHORP said it bad frequently happened to
him to be blamed by each side for yielding to ihe other;
but this he would say, that he always would give way
when he saw good reason for so doing.—(Cheers ) His
Hon. Friend might depend on it, that no man in England
need be alarmed in consequence of the inclination which he
had shown to give way to the exemption of present in-
cumbents, that he would give way on any material prin-
ciple of the measure to which he felt himself pledged—
(Hear, bear)---but in this instance he thought he could
give way without such interference.
Sir R. PEEL said, that after what the Noble Lord had
said, be thought he ought not to be further pressed on
the subject. The Noble Lord could not be expected to
pledge his colleagues, but be bad promised to give it his
fullest consideration, and the value of such words proceeding
from a Minister of the Crown must be fully understood.
Colonel PERCEVAL considered that the Noble Lord
had only given way to his own sense of justice.
Mr. FINN said, both sides of the House appeared to be
vieing with each other who shiarld most uphold the Pro-
testant establishments in het ind.—(Loud cries of "Hear,
hear.") He would tell the Noble Lord, and he would tell
the House, that the people of Ireland looked upon that
establishment as monstrous in its amount—as excessively
disproportioned to the spiritual wants of its members.—and
as a heavy and unjust tax upon the.large body of the Catholic
population. In 1731, the population of Ireland was
2,000,000—at this moment it amounted to 8,000,000.
The Protestant population at the first period was to
the Catholic as one to two and half, but at the present
time 1s was only as one-half to six and a half. If the exten-
sion of the Protestant religion, therefore, was their object,
they had completely failed. The best way of extending
that religion would be by doing justice to the people of
Ireland, and not by keeping up an overgrown eetablish-

o(
ment, which, under existing circumstances, the
Pep,
Ireland repard.d as the badge of conquest and of
_llOl
The whole Protestant church population in Irellt
not more than 700,000. If they deducted the .IT.,
terians of the North, the Calvinists, and other Dig',,de
he was sure it did not exceed that amount, Wlitilrf
sum total enjoyed by the clergy of this poP°l4
700,000 amounted to upwards of 1,000,0001. ote
annum—though the whole of the clergy of France, of
population of 32,000,000, did not receive 0011110
1,500,000/. Was not this monstrous? "nip
O
glaring disproportions existed, could they wonderto
feeling which prevailed in Ireland towards the p
ment ?—( Hear.) Whilst they were lavishing
not
sympathies on the established clergy, the state of
ge
fering poor in Ireland was totally forgotten. di
in
there were upwards of 1,000,000 of men Irel
ing to work who could no get more than fourieeF
fivepenee a day, and that casually. he o
Lord ALTHORP deprecated the tone of the
the Hon. Gentleman, as c,tculated to le` to tle._fstill
discussion. He most certainly, on bringing l'il";i004
proposition, did not seek to abolish the established"
in Ireland. His aim was, merely to reform its
It was unfair of the Hon. Gentleman also to eveln,l4
this Bill was the only measure of relief inteed'bior,
t "'
t,
brought forward by Ws Majesty's Governeneo
it was well known that it was only one of settees!.
°1 .000,
The CHAIRMAN then put the second reeeo,
given in our yesterday's paper. Some words havioor
ev.r, been introduced aft.r the words " er°"'coed
ment," to this effect—graduated so as not to a
per. cer. n
Wt. in any case. hest tli.a
MARBURTON was extremely glad t°
mariner in which the suggestion of the Right Hen; toe
(Sir R. Pe- I) below him was received. He quite-PO'
in the principle laid down by the Hon. Member for PO'
chuAllar•h.
GinigLeLnoerNil:
lin, that th, y should deal tenderly with existing tote'
tK
however they dealt abs ractedly with the propel
of tIO
rather than impede the Progres'jh 101
Bill, wuuld withdraw the amendment of which,-„e0
c iu•idered as supporting a church estattlish
given notic • ; but in doing so, he hoped he shol!
Ireland or elsewhere.—( Hear.) Those who bad elProlset
so much commiseration for the establishment
would do better to commiserate the starving r'
that country. •
Mr. JAMES JOHNSTONE was glad that I°,olo
Friend avowed his hostility to the establiahtee°4oo
open, manly manner. The church had less to tires 0.11
avowed foe-, then from the undermining of e.°°eto°'
tnernies.— (Hear.) But lie denied that the sentglserk
his Hon. Friend were participated in by the peolAe
land. He expressed his satisfaction at the el3n‘
made by the Noble Lord. oh/
An Hoer. MEMBER (name unknown) observed' 0141
oio
religion was a matter of pure personal interest. iuP
ask, whether one ought to be compelled to rig `;-,eoo'
porting a form of worship which he believed ee 440
trary to the Word of God ? Was it not monetr't 1101
attempt to control men's consciences? Virestialtjus .°ll.Ol
Parliament should interfere with the --
'SP
means I d
He was himself a member of the church f Enf.in 0
he did not find
fault with another beeause
Went eitorreoi

—'° He sees

Salvation on the same hill-top,
But treads another path." tjelit
Mr. ESTCOURT would agree tai
the result', giow-
ttalikeeuni
ndteorstiain,dinergiotuhsatesitnbsei Noble Ltohred
e(uAglgtehsotrioll,

Right Hon. B ronei (Sir Hubert Peel).
After a few words from Mr. Ruthven, AR.
OP'
wood, Mr. Woriairon, and Mr. M. Attisood, ja
the Chairman read the resolution. which
Mr. FAITHFUL con, urred in all that part f
tb
ferred to t,lc:n4 away ; but he did not apPr°" ° pet
to bed°to
mode in which what was taken away was
pi iated. He r gretted that it was not to be aPPlije ,
relief of the people, instead of bein, still aPPlie- t
purposes of the Church.—(Considerable merriale°o3ir
excited on the Hon. Member's sitting down, by tb,,e e
ec
inan putting the question, as if upon the oPtptol
ttnee of his speech, " As many as are of that
say Aye.")

The resolution was then agreed to.
The House resumed.
MUTINY BILL.
10/
On the report upon the Mutiny Bill, h be j
Mr. HUME rose to move the clause of v,b'e-Zcee
given notice, " That it shall not be lawful to inwsoulier'
poral punishment by flogging on any Priv„s,,e ortnY,
corporal, or non-commissioned officer in ...,t"-„,,t101,`
militia of the United Kingdom, within the u"'netsvit",
dom, anything herein contained to the contrarytriielste',
standing." He felt anxious to know whether yrs whir'
w.iuld not attempt to carry into effect those oPinhi°,,git
tb
they had advocated when out of office. Ile tli;bithet
time was now come when they ought 0 IcewvPA charg.
measures which they had formerly
had been made against those who had
ad/°cate to rut'
soPP".ed. d the abol!,
tion of flogging in the arm that , Wished
t tb3
rmy, that they mil Az
the discipline of the army. He would never this 1;
and he would only reply to the charge by slat[-
,;,11therei;
—that there were some regiments in "'"'" this,
no flogging, and in which, notwithstanding {oar,
pline was maintained as well as in those wbereti 18".
was frequent, if not better. On the 15th 34filauie
I
on the third reading of the Mutiny Bill, he (Wia
had hail the honour to move the following c.
b e
" And be it be further enacted, that it shall not
prid,
to inflict corporal punishment, by flogging, "If tbe're)'
soldier, corpora', or non-commissioned officer, '", VP"-
or militia of the United Kingdom, within "1001'
Kingdom, anything herein contained to the cerirra;Meol:
withstanding,." He was seconded by the Galltii%
her for Nottingham (Sir R. Ferguson). The “;,.?
divided—for the clause, 47 ; against it 127; 117.„reityr:/ej
The following Hon. Members voted with the 113'°-,
Lord J. Althorp, Alexander Baring, W. De,„,nl.?l'elit,
p
uncannon, Sir. R. Ferguson, W. James, l•''' jolt°.
rely, Him. G. Lamb, T. B. Lennart, Dr. Lo
W. L. 'Moberly, Sir George Phillips, ir• SA' oNi:
Sir Mathew W. Ridley, J. Smith, A. IV.
Alderman Wood, Sir John Wrottesleyw.a,
Tellero ,0
Cam Hobhouse, Joseph Hume. He s
r°
see in his place the Secretary for Ireland ('d;90,14111
C. Hobhouse), who had stated his opinion Or!'
on the subject. On the third reading of the Alti,„,ll),fel'lt
in 1827, on the 12th March, Mr. Leycester 1-fitert"
clause—" That it shall not be lawful to enforce, -(tenth
passing of this Act, corporal punishment 00 an,Y,,
by the sentence of any courtmartial within '"11-,,abelo
sKingdom." Lord Nugent supported it. 111r•I''d
'aid--" He had attentively listened to what .)3
Al,'y
from gallant officers in the army on the sUbjeet,.;o Id "H.Ol
only reason they gave for de'emling it that he '-uit "td
cover was, that it ought to be continued becau'ern bet-;
existed. That so far from flogging making the,,. la ji;
soldiers or men, no good could be der' ed ;"°ro iv to r
and as no benefit resulted from the revolting ee're,
e 1
ought to be abolished, as being a national 04'0 ,iecl)br
as placing our army, in its discipline and lion°W.'ooo
to that of France. He hoped that no session Nadel
"
ni 0
suffered to pass away without some ffort being: hojetil'e
relieve the soldiers from this abominable piu"'.l,o bit
He should hope that the Noble Lord and those wich
now in power would put an end to a system 'eh 0, 011
formerly characterized as a disgrace to the Ohl° trelii,
could not understand why Englishmen siwuld r °'lo
like brutes. The Mutiny Act supplied many e' aetad,d
tary punishments besides this, which was so deOgioggler,
the national character; and the fact was/ rh3t• 110`f-0'
was inflicted merely because officers bad it in their o,ol'o
whereas if they were deprived of that povver, tb:„Yabilet
find many other means which would effect all '';,l te:sl,‘
which they could have in view. It Was peon„'
this subject sleep in a reformed Parliament. "-Uld
ment of slaws was confined to fifteen lashes. aria.op
nesessary for maintaining the discipline of tie
ajai,oo,
subject the soldiers to 200, 300, and 500 ? t 104
to any other punishment courtsmartiar maY.°'l3-e, be';o
offenders to be marked on the left side, two ine and id
the arm.pit, with the letter D, an inch long, trti:e
gunpowder, not liable to be obliterated." Lileediogr,d,
that such a punishment, which perpetuated to
ref-0.1
and tended to destroy all feelings favourable![to 'we°
tion in the soldier, was never carried into eire.ored,
ft
eluded hy moving the clause to which he had ref e
to orl t
An Hoar. MEMBER. observed, in answerpunt 6i,u 00/1
urged by Mr. Home, that no officer could
impulse of the moment, or without the interverto
0
courtmartial.
Mr. HUME had alluded to COUrtstilartialy 90-A )
individual officers. et r3r)P
Mr. LENNARD said that he bad in no respe
vote
d
the opinion he had formerly expressed by his vb°o oboti
military flogging ought to be aholished--and
i
therefore, willingly support the clause of the 11007 ris
h,tz
for Middlesex. It was not to be denied that pu°, oot,i
were inflicted on soldiers in the army that isqc:lru,
• pd
tutored if attempted to be inflicted upon voi!,
common gaols.—(llear.) It was an anoruaf?
the 0.00)
law that there was one species of punishment [l,,stior ,;!
and another for the officer, so that `nod it.coe)
was constantly kept up, which, together so, s.he 1307
punishment, tended to degrade the character of '
13.111
army,
Mr. R. GRANT, having taken charge o_f tthieeti-bclll,j
the absence of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. u•
telt calk(' upon to make one or two obs:lvati,for w-
-,hould deserve attention for their candour if 001

f tht
prozresA 0
1. which 14 tti
he
)should e r
6,lent c4hod
0 bad exPr
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,
i
nest n ole'
;arving P°l

1 that hi't
Lbli 'Jtu
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tTlen of
og
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e pe.Pe °.eglior
the c
erved,o th!A
e
) ohs no:
erect. for ouP,
to pay re
je„,ltd
0,
fn
°n9t"t 01'
itius .011
\%Tan' sof „l.'s;
of Eogi"

resolotioo
'Althorp) 5'4 ty
uggestioo,

.
Mr;
-m reit
~woody °
t bieb
part
of oi
optb
filvee spi°(
to
" died °
be BPr. to
ty
'I aPPIIe t
nerrirrie° cbs
by th d
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of that oP

ot.
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;he f10a..913,0
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risonerg iti
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nt for tile001';
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with er he
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Is:qvatioafo,V
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