The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-04 00:00:00

DRUNKENNESS.

Mr. BUCKINGHAM then rose to bring forward
his motion on this subject, but from the continued
noise in the house it was very difficult to catch the
hon. member's observations. He said he felt assured
that the house was not aware of the very great extent
of misery and loss that was occasioned in this country by
the vice of drunkenness. He feared he should render
c
iheooenanmv
that
es fedoohcin.r teu
oseHfsnoht of
etusdhl edmd bonerhouseoettapeople,ob i e factst
th oa than
satisfy
whichalone,
seand
thneohtehhwionuse
that the
himself liable to the imputation of meddling with the
at-
as
cwoa sn
v i nmorece d
foreign from his intentions. He would draw the at-
habit of drunkenness was more extensive, and its
ci nojpuro
upon
o utsh
itsh a:o
jweite as generally
tbhee-
opinion of private individuals, but to records of a
public nature. The hon. member then referred to
the report of the managers of the Hanwell Lunatic
Asylum, Middlesex, to prove the effects of drunkenness.
In that asylum there were 72 out of one hundred
whose insanity was attributable to drunkenness ;
and it had been ascertained that on a Monday
2,800 men, 1,855 women, and two hundred and
eighty-nine children, visited a gin-shop in Holborn ;
and on the Sabbath, which was the most prolific day
of the whole, the numbers were considerably greater ;
the sum total of a single week amounted to 269,438
men, 108,593 women, and 23,276 children. As
this country was celebrated for its promotion of
education and morality, it ought to be consistent,
and endeavour to suppress this demoralizini, prac-
tice. In Edinburgh, in the royalty, there had been
issued 736 new licenses in one year. If he turned from
Scotland to Ireland, the fact was much more conclusive,
for he had the evidence of a man who had made this
a subject of fresh investigation, and in the province of
Ulster he proved there were 30 spirit-shops to one shop
for the sale of bread ; and in a town in which there were
800 houses there were no less than 18 spirit shops.
In the central part of England, the towns of Manh-
chester, Leeds, and Sheffield, and those towps
were the most populous, which influenced very inuc"

P

•

the actions of those in the surrounding townS,
he could prove, from incontrovertible testimony, that
the system-of drunkenness was carried on, to an alarre-
ing extent. In Manchester in one shop 112 men,
163 women, and 137 children, making in all 412
persons, had been seen to enter upon an average every
hour, and this was on a Saturday, before the poor had
received their wages. In Leeds there were 297
hotels, 289 beershops, or in all 586 places, where in,
toxicating liquors were sold. It was calculated that
in Leeds 307,6321. was spent every year in spirits.
The hon. member proceeded; amidst the Confusion ei
the house, which rendered his details unintelligible
the gallery, to make numerous statements in order to
show the increase of the consumption of ardent spirits,
and the consequent demoralization of the poor. He
It ha
contended that the bulk of the English, population had
deteriorateddbeen oinalogruloawtotdh othwaitngontoa trehioseinnt rocpreasoionsgsiovniceo,f
the Trades' Unions about 50,000/. in wages had been
lost by the poor in their absenting themselves from
labour; but this was not more than was spent ever°
day by the poordr classes in intoxication. It was sup-
posed that 2,500,0001. was spent every year in the con-
sumption of intoxicating liquors. For his part he
looked upon the ginshop to be a greater evil than
any other as regarded the demoralization
of t
people. ( Hear.) He would now see if any legs
slha-
e
tion had ever been attempted on this subject in an Y
country, and, if so, whether it had succeeded. In
America he found both law and usage worthy of iraP
tation, as applicable to the general use of arcleli
calling the attention of the house. In that countrt
Y
spirits, and to these he was particularly desirous
thea
public feeling indeed seemed to be strongly disP°se
towards habits of sobriety ; but besides this the
di,
had granted a committee to inquire if the
use of spirits amongst the American army was belle ,
cial or injurious to the troops, and on that comnlittd:r
reporting that the use of spirits was an evil, an or a
was sent forth to prohibit the use of it in future, an,
since then it had been altogether discontintlec.l
Shortly after the experiment had been so successit),lY
tried in the army it was extended to the Amerww.,
navy, a service in which it was supposed to be impos-
sibleo'
to do away with the use of spirits - but here too
the attempt had been eminently successful both as re-
garded the American navy itself and the trading ser,',
vice of that country, for out of 1,706 trading vessels
that now belonged to the different states of Amer
there was not one in which the use of ardent spirits
was either permitted or wished for by the men them'
selves. So far, -then, as regarded America every haally,
tempt to abolish the vice of intemperance e
fully
succeeded. There was a danger. connected with the
use of spirits on board ships to which he had not al-
luded, but which he thought ought not to be over-
looked. He meant the hazard of fire, and the great evil
which was well known of the sailors rushing inulledi'
ately to the spirit-room in any confusion that arose.
He did not see any difficulty, if the committee for
which he meant to move should be granted, there would
be of carrying out the report of that committee. into all
enactment. Much of the evil of drunkenness he attri•
buted to the practice of paying the labouring classes
their wages on the Saturday, and more particularly oil
the night of that day. This it was which certainlf
led to the drunkenness that was witnessed to such an
extent on the Sunday morning. The labouriof ,4
classes should never be paid at a public-house at. all,
or those who kept such houses should be held respell'
sible for the sobriety of those of the lower classes who
went there to get their wages. His ,wish would be to,
have all public-houses closed during the whole of Stle
day, and on other days be open only so long
thing
beer-houses were permitted to be open. Every:
should be done to decrease, and nothing to inie,r exist
the number of public-houses, and those that
should be compelled to afford as little acco
as possible to induce persons to remain in them-every"
looked upon drunkenness to be the source of
if the
other crime and vice. It had been said that_
ginshops were shut up persons would resorthtaot
churches to concoct crime. He did not say t
be T..'
might not be done, but he thought it would e
cii
,
better to run the hance of that than have the s
tainty of their meeting in public-houses for the
cri
purpose, and get drunk besides. If any
°dn had no
show him a man who was a drunkard only an
so
other vice he would admit that drunkenness was notbie
bad as he thought it; but he considered it illlP,°slad
to meet with such a man. For the reasons he
stated he should move that a select committee DI
the
pointed to inquire into the extent, the causes, an
the
consequences of the vice of intoxication amongst
t°
labourino• classes, and what means would be best
m:lodatilione

adopt for remedying so great an evil.
Mr. STRICKLAND rose to second the motioll•
He (Mr. Strickland) was not at all disposed to inter-
fere with the mode of paying labourers' wages that
was at present established throughout the country'
This was a subject to which he had paid particular
attention, and he knew that there was a great object'
tion to altering the day of payment from Saturday to
Friday. Indeed he did not think it practicable to do
this with any good effect. He fully agreed that the gin-
shops and the beershops should be placed on an equal.
footing, for he could not see why beershops should l,
e
closed while ginshops were permitted to be open all
meansts night.
hn reryp e
tonopflsHoe
checkingent
hat
ahl sti also
thvaeigeytrehe
eseshdoluituchlmeda
much
cfui
hto
dk wason
si
ntktothehentohneei
chiefnsees education ue a
scaaßinedi.eobn:
volasosnastf
former times drunkenness was much more barnile .
than at present. (A laugh.) Although he did not
accord with the general views taken of ' this subject by
tmt
hh
oae
tt
ihoaonne, .
committee
mit
iii
still
mihtbet
ee
should
hoownuoltduhledsgroundsiot
some
newuhsi
becauseech fu llibeiennltt,ahe de
thought
tions into the police regulations as regarded puthse,
houses. He should certainly wish to see those ho
closed altogether on the Sabbath Day.
agaiandinatlresdly
undergones
hubeLjneoggrhtd,t a AfttheLiarntTt
thathl -Ite
various
rhßa
iosoP said
uus
seedeoiensls
su
sat
ehr
vsyaietotrneahsl etgotesachtasoiuit
01
hdnrse.vii
ao
itTe
ehh
dt
eahi:n
could be no doubt that much drunkenness p There
ells ; but
the country, and particularly in the nletr°, Pto appoint
he did not think that it would be desirable
g a pros-
a committee on the subject, without there
means. The
dTohineghesonm.
geebnetnleemfitantowhtheeseceoeunndtrey:ttbahre_ougmemohtbeioiti
objected to the grounds laid for it by the hon.
_wands of
who brought it forward ; but he laid other gre
~oht to
• 0-1,.. •
his own on which he thought the committee
4. o public-
be granted, and these were chiefly tha. lan spirits
houses should be open on Sunday, and thsl. To ac..
entlen°
should be sold except where beer was sola
complish these two objects, if the hon. L'oll for $
thought them so desirable, there was no °cc, —idone by,
committee, as it might be much more easily t see, if
a simple bill. For his owanpywahpyiaoinnrlegtphe could 11? made
as
apd
nae
yo
tph(l earlyeeAy wl
would
goun
unl
hdlr
d)
o;gnae
havent
ds daartstuuhrntedok, what difference 'tatar..
whether they got drunk on the Friday or the '-'es at
hour, he thought the change wourtdlehdafeyebinreetntefhocer°gitrethtoweagiiivorsok;atec'
(Laughter.) He had always been of opinion, °vice of
so still, that the best means of lessening the. c iha
drunkenness, as well as all other vices, amen _i,b7te
people, was to educate them ; but he did not D:--..
that it was possible at all times to prevent p.117_ d
from getting drunk, if they chose toch?. soly :
Wet to arise
not 'see any beneficial effect that waso_l ember, had ,
the
from the committee for wttii;heuiebcrhiseiufsto;
osmimoved,li.n
c!.nod
j3hße
Ec oTuTI d not,had
sNi
roowu ,s if
to the..put
ut nobleau ctlotohur:
one of which was p ,Government
drunnk.eerneneds:
the best thingsermon, and il •
al stop to that stu:ePe
l°gvirlea di
.ne.
rgnelv:iacne:
they
cooffp!ceus: iadwodf
no
ot wh
iosu t urc hanays efehnwies
the motion. nness""ls
tohremtwoth
rmoini
probability that.., gob..
• tee it it
facts would come out before this commit
,nit from
laugh.)
PEASE said the crime of drunke_._ extent.
be appointed. Seeing no good that could res
increasing and extending itself to an arnaz!,"•l6,
i tile coun-
much evil as the dramshops.
(Cries of " No, no.") He travelled throouuld- say, from
try as much as most gentlemen, and cis,. Regular
°:anctnouounnt
once.
ere
country,.
c
wool,:hfierrd..
wpiozutitoi
dall ini!usdt
support
his own observation, that it was ineVn:t produce so
tvhi victualling-houses Ipilnogy-mhoettsntesofacnhdildbreeenr shhicg a " ,i 1 arising from
faetorlu : how-
UCStiOll,
when compared with this. U'iio:7 e.-Sn
there Was 3
the Presetit
embers, while upon left a!'
house. It was ..0
occasion there was a very
tinhibners for towns and el"
most exclusively to thr
feuvlelr,atatnedudaunpcoon
ofth ei:grieultural questio
slut edramshops. 0
to fight the battle ag
fullvalandmitted the evils of &mike 5
Mr, HUME -
on the Ina anal sup..
these classs, because they were more abund 0
'among the lower classes it certainly increased. gio.
nnleisesd, but
„,.
with
tlth:c
adsteic:ei e di
notenhaaltlths aemooofonui gnt
contrary,
the better
:tiebhtatdtat'oelqcr ;gee lariassetsid:tsacrli :flieg
remedy proposed was an increase of taxation upon

?he effect of this would be, as experience proved, to
!ocrease smuggling. The noble lord (Althorp) well
xoew that the addition of even sixpence a gallon duty
°n gin had nearly opened the private stills of Ireland
and Scotland. The cheapness of spirits was not the
''ause of drunkenness. They were cheap in Belgium
and Prance, yet he never saw a drunken man in these
countries. There might be such, but he never chanced
to meet them. It arose entirely from the state in
which the population of this country was allowed to
remain. It was vain to think of teaching morality by
laws or police. The only remedy for the viee of
drunkenness was to raise the intellectual condition of
the people by a system of national education, and by
I mere active and vigilant discharge of duty on the
Part of the clergy. In place of having non-residents
and pluralists roving over the country and over Europe
musing themselves, they ought to be in their parishes
attending to the morals and providing zealously for
the spiritual wants of the people. If this was done
they would not see drunkenness so prevalent. To this
conclusion he came from recollecting what he wit-
Ceased in youth in his own country, and which he recol-
lected with gratitude. Was not everything done that
could be done by taxation and monopoly to shut out the
means of instruction from the people—to withhold
from them even a knowledge of the laws they were
to be governed by? One had a monopoly of printing
Acts of Parliament, realizing thereby a fortune of a
million sterling. There was also a monopoly of Bible
Printing, adding thereby one or two hundred per cent.
to the price. The people could not enjoy even the
Pleasure of reading the aphorisms of Poor Richard's
dlmanack without paying a tax of 15d. upon a copy.
tverything that could be done by fiscal oppression to
barbarize the people was done, and yet they expressed
• Surprise at the prevalence of drunkenness. Let the
doors be thrown widely open to information. Ignorance
was the father of vice, and vice of drunkenness. The
tnly remedy was education. He hoped the motion
Would not be pressed.
' kr. MAXWELL supported the motion.
Sir R. BATE SON supported the motion. He
well acquainted with Scotland, and he would yen-
tUr to say that in no one of the three countries did
i the vice of drunkenness prevail to so great an extent as
tlt did in Scotland. ( A laugh.) In his part of Ire-
' Laud the religion was the same as in Scotland, the
'43 argy were as pious and as exemplary, and yet
qrUnkenness was on the increase. It could not be at-
tributed to ignorance, for schools had greatly in-
treased in that part of the country, but as the march
?f education increased drunkenness increased. (A
laugh.) He doubted much whether cheap publica-
tions did much good; quite the contrary. The evil
arose, among other circumstances, in a great measure
from the facility with which vagabonds who escaped
from prison were permitted to set up public-houses.
The most effectual remedy would be to take off the
i duty on malt, and enable people to obtain a cheap and
Wholesome beverage.
Colonel VERNER supported the motion.
Mr. BROTHERTON said drunkenness had in-
creased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished.
(A laugh.)
Mr. BAINES hoped that the hon. member for
Sheffield would press his motion to a division, and if
that hon. member did so he should have his (Mr.
tallies's) support.
Mr. H. HUGHES should give his support to the
/notion. A fact that came out lately in evidence
Riven by Captain Ross before a committee of that
house made him still more anxious to give the present
motion his support. That gallant captain stated, the
spirits of his ship being exhausted, his crew had for
three mouths " congealed ice" as their only beverage
k Loud laughter), and it was to this that Captain
Ross attributed his having brought back safe so many
°is his crew.
. Mr. CA YL E Y should support the motion for going
lilt() a committee of inquiry on the subject.
t, Colonel WILLIAMS said that one of the worst
2 1 Ings about those gin palaces, those infernal ginshops,
;as that well-dressed women were continually seen
wing out of them. The consequence would be that
ire generations ould be olluted and contaminated,
8414 they could not seek toop vigorously (A laugh)—he
meant to say they could not employ too much energy
,Laughter)—in putting them down. He supported
tne motion.
Colonel EVANS begged the noble lord (Lord
Althorp) to withdraw his opposition to the motion.
When so many members appeared in favour of the
ittotion he thought it would be better if the noble lord
would not persist in his opposition to the committee.
Mr. E.
TENNANT complained of the great ex-
rnt of illicit distillation in Ireland, and thought that
act
lord alone sufficient to claim the attention of the noble
;Ir. C. FE RGUSSON thought that if the noble
lord would only increase the duty on spirits he would
be conferring a great benefit on the public; and it
kWould be a great satisfaction to the people at large to
now that the question had come under the considera-
" of the house.
Lord ALTHORP, notwithstanding the feelings
hand Opinions of hon. gentlemen opposite, still felt it
'ecesSary to persevere in his opposition to the motion.
Mr. 'WARBURTON did not see the necessity of
Placing a large duty on spirits. Any such attempt as
,that Would not prevent the consumption of spirits from
'noreasing. He perfectly agreed with the opinions
ecpressed during the debate by the hon. member for
liddlesex, that the best way to prevent the vice of
drunkenness was to afford, to men of small and mode-
rate fortunes the same high motives that were afforded
;` persons Of large fortunes—make it disgraceful to
"em to be seen intoxicated. Let them have such
illearis of improvement as those pointed out by the
I°ll. member for Oldham, viz., cheap and good pub-
,!eations. These were the only means of discouraging
gie bad habits of drunkenness.
AhMr• BUCKINGHAM, in reply, saw nothing in
hahad been said on the other side to induce him to
raw his motion.
The house then divided—

For the motion .....
Against it
Majority
b The following committee were ti
ickingliam, J. S. Flalford, H.
Bkithorp, Viscount Fleming,
.Adydral
res Sir R. Galway, J. N. _
,nelair, G. Knatchbull, Sir E.
,willi rn.,, Col. Finn, W. F.
u•rinag A. Lloyd, J. H
`trickl, cl. Sir G. Hawes, B.
knirienti, Eme
Emerson Wood, Alderman
-e‘' Si R Lefroy, A.
fiow rR.
lir '.ll, P. H. Ewing, J.
11:::tnertnn, J. Sandon, Viscount
4tPtre, J. p
.• • I
Col beingpl re-admitted into the gallery, we found
of °n--- E VANS Moving for certain returnstathe nature
aQwhich the noise of strangers prevented us from
—cortaining•

-17
ten appointed :
Philips, M.
Burrell, Sir C. M.
Johnstone, A.
Fenton, J.
Dare, Hall
Briscoe, J. I.
Pease, J.
Alarsland, J.
Le3ter, B L.
Baines, E.
Calley, T.

EDUCATION.
en Air. ROEBUCK then rose to move the resolutions
this subject, of which he had given notice. He
114 id that he had brought this subject forward last year
:11 another shape, and that he now meant to bring it
Iorward in an altered form. The form he now brought
It in, was in the shape of a motion for a committee of
niquiry. All that he would ask of the house, was to
pant that committee of inquiry. He knew that in
~Ilgland, before any great changes could be made,
minds must be prepared for them. That
co one of his reasons for asking the house to grant a
elmittee of inquiry upon this subject. By so doing,
hotise v uld only be pledged to the extent that it
ih°ught thwould only be pledged to the extent that it
OUght the subject of sufficient importance to grant
e committee. When the house had already granted
so many
h• committees,
t „ he thought they would not refuse
of vital ining subject that embraced so many. matters
jce, and in which so many interests
Were concerned. If the house should let his motion
Pass' and if they should dislike the resolutions with
which it was acCom panied, he promised to withdraw
them, or to allow the house to deal with them in any
they thought fit. Having said this much on the
ittbject of granting a committee, he should now proceed
!to argue the general.question. It was well known that
t 1 all countries security of every species was preceded
43' high moral and intellectual culture. It was conse-
quently the duty of government to see whether they
l'otild not introduce this culture, and to devise the best
weans of' improving the morals and the intellectsof the
People. He asked not for the advancing of any parti-
etilar creed. He wished only that such a state of
tit'', 41 culture should be introduced as to make men
,v,„"i!e, affable, and urbane towards each other—he
,''sned for such an education as would make them
and give them the
t"°°(l citizens, alive to their duty,
4:tiart to follow it the right way. That was his object,
thetithse thought it ought to be the object of all govern_
444111 • The question he knew was surrounded with
h ties, but they might be done away with. When
e 100karid wh-u. to the state of the peasant and th.e.poorman,
tiety, heen he_ reflected on the present condition of so-
rounded saw that the poor were continually sur-
to r .wt oy temptation. The only way to cause them
saslat those temptations, the consequence of the
eaeli ent structure of society, was to give them such an
" cation that they would be no longer exposed to

every breath of - chance to break through the rules by lit be wise to inculcate notions in them above-their con-
which society ought to be held together. His object dition ? ( Hear.) " But," said the hon. member for
was, not to raise men above their sphere, but to make 1 Bath, "it is only right that the per: -hould be enabled
them happy and weed = e e'i••‘ d that men had to refresh their minds with intellect: :,l enjoyment a 'ter
in a great degree ~7 tl1.1: eurp.ose in their the labours of the day were over." I.:ow, in his (Mr.
own power. If ea:11 c i.. s the coy :IT:unity were edu- Cobbett's) opinion, they would be much more refreshed
cated they would be able to work out their own happi- by a sound sleep than by any such nonsense. But, if
ness. This, above all, w.,uld be ths• case with that I this system of intellectual enjoyment were to be
most numerous of all classes, namely, the lateurer. adopted, was it it not very clear that they should at
I f theyof
rate wages of labour depended on themselves, and ing and drinking? ( Laughter.) This was the first step
might soon, by the exercise of their own pru- to, be taken. He had said that the habits of the peo_
dente,
ehave sufficient means of subsistence. But the pie of other nations had nothing whatever to do with
obtaining the mere means of subsistence would not those of the people of this country ; but, if they would
make them happy ' • but if they were properly edu- turn to America, a country that might be used for the
cated they would derive pleasure from other sources purpose of illustrating this subject, they would find
than mere animal gratification, and they would be that in the proportion tat education, or, if they would,
ready to make immediate and trifling sacrifices for intellectual enjoyment, was extended, crime actually
future and permanent good. Instead of being mere increased, and this he was able to prove to the satis-
-1 slaves of immediate gratification, they would look to faction of the hop. member by a document which
futurity, and would endeavour by their own exertions he had in his possession, signed by the Recorder of
to make themselves happy. ( Hear.) He admitted New York, and which he would allow him to peruse
that much had been done for the education and im- i whenever he desired it. He contended that anything
provement of the people, but although this was the case I that was likely to give the •poor notions above their
they must not lay the flattering unction to their souls I condition was a positive evil ; and being persuaded
that there was not much remaining to be done. (The that a national system of education must have that ten-
hon. member then proceeded to illustrate the argil- dency, consulting, as he did, the true interests and real
ment by reading two long extracts, one from the re- happiness of the poor, lie should resist any proposition
port of the commissioners of the poor laws and the of the kind. Sending children to a slipshod school-
other from a work written by a professor at a college mistress, or a drunken, or, what was still worse, a
in Switzerland.) It had been said that it was not the sober, conceited coxcomb of a schoolmaster, was cal-
duty of government to educate the People ; but this, in culated only to engender habits of idleness ; and that
point of fact, was begging the question. The go- being his opinion, he should now, as he had always
vernment published laws and punished those who were done, resist, as far as he was able, any scheme for
guilty of an infraction of those laws. It was the duty establishing a general system of education. ( Hear. )
of government, therefore, to place people in such a Lord MORPETH said that although he went a
situation that they could in the best manner obey the long way with the hon. member for Bath, he differed
laws. This could only be done by means of the dif- from that hon. gentleman on some particulars. He
fusion of education. This, in his opinion, was an un- therefore should propose an amendment, which, though
answerable argument. It had been said that it was a contemplating the same end, would pursue the object
side-wind argument—that if the government had the which each had in view in a more definite manner, and
power of educating the people it would mislead the with greater concentration of purpose. He was fully
minds of the people, and inculcate slavish principles. impressed with the advantage which must accrue from
It must necessarily be implied in this argument that • a system of general education ; but although he
the government was a bad one, and therefore should thought it expedient to extend and encourage the dif-
be reformed. But when this argument was urged fusion of useful knowledge, he could not give his as-
hon. gentlemen forgot that power might be intrusted sent to the proposition of the hon. member for Bath.
to a government for doing good as well as for evil. It He felt convinced that we must leave the education of
was the recollection of the bad use to which power the upper and middling classes to the good sense of
had been turned that had created a fear as to intrust- the public, for any attempt at control would be re-
ing it to a great extent for the purpose of amending jetted as impertinence. With regard to the poor, he
the poor laws. This was obviously for a good pur- thought it the duty of the legislature to carry educa-
pose, and in that case, as in the case of education, tion as near to their door as possible, and wherefer
there was nothing to fear, provided proper gwards, mid strong natural talent was found to exist, to extend
checks were framed. There was nothing It present to it the fostering hand of encouragement. That
Ito prevent any persons inculcating slavish principles. this was already done to a certain extent amongst
Indeed he knew of a circumstance which bore this out, the operative classes, he was glad to believe was a
which had occurred in a national school in the vicinity fact placed beyond doubt. ( Hear.) That that
in which he was residing. On visiting that school he class ought to be educated for useful purposes there
found it was a rule that no child should enjoy the could be no question; but it was not to be contended
benefits of education in it if it did not attend the that these should have the same education as philo-
church, and he found it recorded in the books of sophers and men of science. With regard to the
the school that a boy had been expelled because he was second instruction, he did not think it desirable to
a monitor in a dissenter's Sunday school. This he make such a prefatory declaration as that contem-
also happened to know was the case with other na- plated by the hon. member. He apprehended there
tional schools to which government contributed would be serious evils in substituting a compulsory for
largely. He could not designate such conduct in a voluntary system of education. With regard to the
other terms than narrowminded bigotry. If they edu- third instruction of the hon. member, he regretted he
cated the children under a proper system, they would could go no further with him than in his other propo-
create a feeling of strongest attachment to the coun- sition. An inquiry was going on into the state of all
try, and have a moral and intelligent population. It charities appropriated to education, and any such
had been objected that so much had been done within course as that recommended by the hon. member
the last ten years that it was unnecessary for the go- would be calculated to create feelings of alarm and
vernment to interfere in the matter. Such an opi- suspicion which he thought it extremely desirable
nion had been put forth by the Lord Chancellor, who should not be excited. Having stated his objections
had spent the best years of his life in endeavouring to to the plan of the hon. member for Bath, he would
promote the education of the people. The hon. and shortly lay before the house his own views, and the
learned gentleman then proceeded at great length to proposition he meant to submit as an amendment.
examine the data referred to by the Lord Chan- During the present session the house had voted a sum
cellor in support of his opinion, with the view of of 40,000/. to the National School and the British
showing that education had not increased to any great and Foreign School Societies, and he had had great
extent when they allowed for the increase of popula- pleasure in supporting that application of the public
tion. The hon. and learned gentleman afterwards money. The house were in possession of returns
proceeded to point out what he considered to be the showing the good which had been achieved by this
defects in the system of instruction pursued in the va- moderate outlay, and it was his intention to rely
rious national and other schools at present. He im- upon them as the justification of the course he meant
plored the noble lord to grant the committee for which to propose. The returns stated that since the ori-
he sought. This was not a party question, nor had ginal grant of 20,0001. voted to the societies last
the motion been brought forward for party purposes, year, applications bad been received for establishing
and therefore he hoped it would meet with no resist- 236 new schools, which were to provide for the edu-
ance. It was the duty of that house to be careful of cation of 55,000 scholars, and that local charitable
the interests of the country, and to diffuse as much funds to the amount of 66,000/. had been already
happiness among the people as they possibly could,and tendered in aid of the Parliamentary grant. In these
this was the ground on which he now begged leave to circumstances he saw the reasonable hope of carrying
move that a select committee be appointed to inquire into effect an efficient system of education, in which
as to the means of establishing a national system of the exercise of the best public feelings should be
education. encouraged, rather than checked as they would -be
Sir W. MOLE SW 0 RTH seconded the motion by a system altogether compulsory. These grants,
with much satisfaction, considering as he did that he was perfectly ready to admit, could hardly be looked
the education of the poorer classes of the Eng- to in any but an experimental point of view, and they
lish people was as deficient in quantity as it was were totally inadequate to the ultimate purposes of a
allowed on all hands to be quality. The pre- national education. But they afforded experience on
sent system of education, if education it could be a limited scale of the operation of certain principles
called, was the subject of general complaint, and and rules, and he thought it would form the appropriate
therefore he thought that some means should be subject of inquiry for a committee to ascertain how far
adopted to ascertain how popular education is now such grants had been successful, and how far- they
conducted in this country, and what it ought to be, if might be beneficially extended. Still he had no wish
it were desired to extend the blessings of knowledge to limit the inquiry of such a committee to that point
among all classes of the community. Experience if the house thought there were others deserving at-
showed, difficulty always existed in obtaining the at- tention. He did not mean to contend for the exact
tendance of children at public schools, owing to a va- maintenance of all the regulations or systems of these
riety of causes ; but, even admitting this to be the two societies, because lie could not but think that
case, he still entertained the opinion that the subject there was something in their circumstances too stiff,
was one on which the Government would be fully and distinct, and separate to permit of their system
justified in hazarding some experiment. A principal being made the groundwork of any fiscal arrangement
feature in any system of education should be an ele- deserving the description of a national system. At the
vation of the character of the teacher ; but this was a same time he thought there would be great evil in
point that in modern tuition was almost wholly disre- checking the display of public feeling which they had
garded, the teacher being treated rather as a servant called forth, and he did not think the Lord Chancellor
than a master. He would not wish to see the educa- had justly exposed himself to the reproaches insinu-
tion of the people intrusted exclusively to the clergy, ated against him by the hon. member for Bath of hay-
although he should desire their co-operation and assist- ing abandoned his early principles upon this question
ance ; but, however persons might differ with respect because he desired to see the display of that feeling
to the means by which such an object was likely to be continued. He thought that all that was good in these
best accomplished, he thought they would all agree societies might be preserved under some superintend-
that every child born of British parents ought to enjoy ing and more active agency, which might fill up the
the blessings of moral and religious education. void now left, and fuse what were now their somewhat
The question having; been put, discordant elements into a more general and consistent
Mr. C OBBE TT hoped to be able to prove to the operation which should lead to a system of more har-
hon. member for Bath that even if his scheme, such mony and order. He would preserve the best regula-
as it was, were adopted it could lead to no good re- tions of the two, and especially that which was the
sult. It was idle to suppose that abstract reasoning glory of both, the free use of the whole Bible. What-
or philosophy could furnish them with any guide in a ever might be the case elsewhere, he was convinced
case like this, and therefore, instead of devising that it was indispensable to the success of any scheme
theories, they should attend only to the lesson which of public education in this country that the Scriptures
experience had taught them. Within the last thirty- without mutilation or comment should be its founda-
five years the teaching of the common people had mul- tion. (Hear, hear.) This was one of his chief ob-
tiplied at least twentyfold, and what had been the re- jections to the plan of the hon. member. In offering
sult ? Lancasterian and other schools had increased his opposition to it he was aware that he was in some
without number during the period he had mentioned ; measure taking a course that might seem invidious to
but had this diffusion of knowledge, as it was called, the hon. member; but he assured him that it was to-
tended to the improvement of the morals of the people? tally unaccompanied by anything like acrimony, and
He did not think that it had. But what were the as- that lie should entertain no feeling of disappointment
sertions that they had heard made in that house in the if the house preferred the hon. member's plan to his
course of that evening ? Why, that of late years own. He felt it to be his duty, however, to give the
drunkenness had increased to a prodigious extent. house an opportunity of coming to a decision as to
Education, therefore, did not prevent drunkenness ; what auspices it would desire to confide so important a
neither had it rendered sons better men than their question. He moved as an amendment to substitute
fathers. On all bands it was asserted that the labour- after the words, " that a select committee be appoint-
ing classes of former times were as expert workmen as ed," these words, "to inquire into the application of
and much better servants than those of the present the grants for the erection of schools, to consider the
day, and, if such was the case, were not the common expediency of making further grants upon the same
people better without than with this miscalled intel- principle, and to inquire into the general state of the
lectual enjoyment? But there was another ground on education of the poor in England and Wales."
which he must object to a national system of educa- Mr. HILL rose, but
tion, and that was the dreadful increase of crime The SPEAKER asked who seconded the amend-
which the diffusion of knowledge, as it was termed, ment?
_had produced in England and Wales. Crime was now Mr. HILL said, " I second the amendment, though
four if not seven times as great as it was thirty.. Ido not approve of the course recommended by the
restraintfi v e
bastardy ear s
geo:
somesot,
existed
a
andletndgidht;i not the fearful increase of noble lord." (A laugh.) He apprehended that it was
to prove
movethmaetnit thuessmnoruatl
purpose
eenof
htfoun
rvihigmitto
dsiesceounssdetdh, eualtmhoenudgmh ehnet,
did
dr the
t
any former period of ourt epresent
history ? The hon. mem- agree with the proposition it contained. He was sure
her had referred to foreign states to show that our he had seen that done.
system of education was
practice of foreign countries to do siththte people of having declared himself opposed to the amendment,
England,? It was good people and'. no(Hear
gabbering propose to speak as its seconder? Who seconds the
people that were wanted in this country.
n.udsta ammenrdmpeLntu?
laugh.) They wanted the poorer classes to be
what they ought to be and no more, and he desired certainly preferred R TdtoEseseecsoondunedpotrhtlnatmuensudhmjeeentt.as
the
only to see these trustworthy servants, and skilful and education of ther people undertaken with a well-found-
industrious labourers ; but what was a smattering of
fedsecudrity that their religious instruction would be
w education likely to render them ? (Hear, hear.) provided
the for,
nobleand
o r
dthereforeoup
lheed pa
as
e fi et r rweads
wt
teh pt rhoop odsei
--
it not calculated to give them a distaste for labour, and tion pro,, o
to make them wish to live in idleness ? (Hear, hear.) claration that the free use of the Sacred. Writings was
For his part he wished to see the children of the poor to form part of the system.
at work as soon almost as they were able to walk ; but Lord AL TH ORP said' the object of the motion
if, instead of being rendered useful to their fathers and being to institute an inquiry into the state of education
mothers at an early age, they were to be kept at school in this country, he must certainly express his full con-
for the purpose of being educated until they were fif- currence in that object. ( Hear, hear.) He always
teen or sixteen years old, he should like to know by had concurred with those who thought the education
whom great eating, stuffing, and drinking boys were of the people should be as extensive as possible. The
to be supported ? (Great laughter.) By whom was difference between the two motions before the house
their provender to be supplied, and how were their did not appear to him to be so very great. The only
bodies to be kept up while they were thus imbibing difference was, that one proposed a general inquiry,
the means oiintellectual enjoyment ? (Renewed and the other an inquiry into the present means of edu-
laughter.) It was idle to suppose that such an educa- cation. Now, if the motion of his noble friend were
tion as this could communicate to children the feelings carried, and if the present means were found inade-
of gentlemen, but, even if it could, would such a thing quate, his motion must be a necessary preliminary to
be desirable ? The labouring poor would, at all events, going further. ( Hear, hear.) The arguments of the
have to earn their bread, and, that being the case, would hon. member for Oldham were all addressed to bad

I
• education and not to good. He had always looked at
• the education already given to the people very much
l rin the same ii:ht as the hon. member for Bath; it was
I more the means of education which the nation pro-
vided than education itself. For this reason he agreed
with those who thought the education given in our in-
' fant schools the best that was given anywhere, because
it was not the mere teaching of reading and writing,
but an education of the mind. ( Hear, hear.) This
was not calculated to make bad servants, as the hon
member for Oldham had accused education of doing.
He agreed with the hon. member, that a ploughman
who understood his business was an educated man, and
that the most profound mathematician who undertook
the work of a ploughman without understanding it
would be an uneducated person in his sphere. But
the object of national education should be to instruct
the people according to their rank and condition in
life. He ageeed with the hon. member who seconded
the motion, that religious instruction should be the
foundation of all education. But he saw nothing in
the amendment that provided for this, although, from
what he knew of his noble friend, he was confident
that any system which he recommended would have
that foundation. Yet, as he understood the hon. mem-
ber
for Bath, his proposition did not exclude religion
or the Scriptures. He certainly was in some difficulty
which motion to prefer, but he was certain that which-
ever the house adopted the committee would not fail
to produce great public good. With regard to what
had been attributed to his noble and learned friend
(the Lord Chancellor), he was confident he never
could have said that the voluntary means of education
which had been supplied were sufficient for the wants
of the people. The experiment of the grant of last
year for the erection of schools had certainly been
successful as far as it had gone. The experiment had
hitherto been tried with very favourable results, and he
I hoped that if the experiment was to be continued it
would still continue to succeed. He trusted that if a
committee were to be appointed on the subject of edu-
cation, they would make it a part of their business to
inquire into the results of the grants already made by
Parliament for the erection of schoolhouses. For that
reason he would rather prefer of the two motions be-
fore the house the amendment of his noble friend
( Lord Morpeth), because it proposed to direct the
attention of the committee to that point. It might be
found, he did not say that it would, but it might be
found that this was the very best mode in which Go-
vernment could interfere to forward the interests of
education. He quite agreed that Government ought
to devote still more attention to the subject (Hear,
hear), and the only question was, how they could ap-
ply themselves to it most beneficially ? For instance,
by the appointment of schools for the education of
schoolmasters (Hear, and a laugh from Mr. Cobbett)
—The hon. member for Oldham might laugh at the
idea of sending schoolmasters to school, but it should
be recollected that nobody was born a schoolmaster,
and it was highly important that he should be properly
instructed in order that there might be some security
for the lessons he might teach. In conclusion, he
would frankly confess that if the motion and the
amendment were pressed to a division he should have
much difficulty to decide which to vote for. He hoped
they might come to a right understanding on the sub-
ject without coming to a formal vote.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he had no wish to take the
subject into his own hands ; on the contrary, he
thought it much better that it should be left in the
hands of the government, After a few observations in
explanation, the hon. and learned gentleman consented
to withdraw his motion.

LONDON AND WESTMINSTER BANK

Lord MORPETH said a few words in explanation,
and withdrew his amendment.

Mr. AB ERC R 01\IBIE suggested the propriety of
extending the labours of the committee to a more
general inquiry on the subject of education ; and
therefore proposed the omission of the word " national"
in the motion of the noble lord.

After a few observations from Mr. BARRON, Mr
O'CONNELL, and Mr. COBBETT,

Lord AL.THORP consented to modify the terms
of his motion in accordance with the suggestion of the
hon. member for Edinburgh, which then ran to the
following effect :—" That a Select Committee be ap-
pointed to inquire into the state of education of the
people of England and Wales' and into the application
and effects of the grants made in the last session of
parliament for the erection of schoolhouses; and also
as to the expediency of making further grants for the
purpose of education."

The motion, as amended, was agreed to.
POLISH REFUGEES.

Lord D. STUART moved a resolution sanctioning
(as we understood) an appeal from the House of
Commons to his Majesty in favour of the Poles. - His
lordship went through the arguments an facts de-
tailed at length in our late report of his spech on the
same question. He was quite willing that whatever
grant should be allotted should be restricted exclu-
sively to the Poles at present in the country, so that
the danger of inducing further emigration to this
country might be avoided. The noble lord concluded
by moving that the house should resolve itself into a
committee of the whole house, to consider the pro-
priety of transmitting an humble address to his Ma-
jesty, praying he might be pleased to direct that
some pecuniary assistance should be granted to the
distressed Poles at present in this country, and as-
suring his Majesty that the house would make good
the same.

Mr. BUCKINGHAM seconded the motion.
Lord ALT HORP said that on the distinct under-
standing that any grant to be directed by the crown
should be restricted to the distressed Poles at present
in the country, and further, on the understanding that
those hon. members who supported the present motion
would support the government in resisting any further
grant that might be sought for the relief of Poles not
at present in England, his Majesty's goverment had
authorised him to state that there was no objection to
the motion. (Loud cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. C. FERGUSSO and Mr.
HUME, the motion was agreed to, and the committee
fixed for Thursday next.

STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH INDIA.
On the motion of Mr. C. GRANT, a select corn-
mittee was appointed to consider the best means of
facilitating a steam communication nication with India by
means of steam-vessels, consisting of the following
Inglis,Peel Sir R. H. Rumbold, C. E.
members :
. J. S. Elliot, Captain
Grant, Right lion. C. Evans, Colonel Thomson, C. P.
Buckingham, Todd, J. R.
Grant,Right Hon. R. Blake, M.
Young, G. F. Mackenzie, J. A. S. Martin, J. (Sligo)
Shell, R. L. Adam, Admiral Osssulton, Lord
LFGoeykiirgihdiuoa:mns
Ferguson,
R.
Sir!.it
CR.. G .
Hume, Joseph Sandon, Lord Strutt, E.
IRISH COMMISSION.
Mr. SHEIL wished to know from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer whether the members of the Irish
Commission were to be paid for the time which they
might be employed in the execution of their duties ?
Lord ALTHORP replied that they would be paid
one sum for their whole service, and that therefore
they would have no inducement to procrastinate their
labours.

CIVIL OFFICES PENSION BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of the Civil
Offices Pension Bill,
Mr. HUME said that in the then state of the house
it %vas impossible to divide, but he trusted that the right
hon. bart. ( Sir.l.Praham) would assent to his proposi-
tion that pensions in future should be granted by that
house.
Lord AL THORP totally differed from the hon.
member as to the principle of the pensions being
granted by a popular assembly instead of by the crown.
There would be no economy in such an arrangement,
for that house had always been more willing to make
grants of public money than the ministers, who were
responsible for their conduct.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but the
house did not divide, and on our re-entering the gal
lery we found
Sir J. GRAHAM on his legs, in defence of the bill
He contended for the executive government being in-
trusted with the power of settling the amount of pen-
sions.

Mr. H AWE S thought the bill very unfavourable
to the interests of the clerks in government offices,
and that it ought not to affect the right of those who
had entered the public service before 1829, when a
treasury minute had placed the clerks on the footing
in which this bill would confirm them.
After a short desultory conversation, in which seve-
ral hon. members took a part, the bill was read a third
time, the 10th clause having been withdrawn with the
consent of the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Graham).
The bill was then passed, and the house adjourned
at a quarter past two.

Major Baring, of the First Life-Guards,
M. P. for Marlborough, has retired from the army and
sold out of the regiment. Lieut. Middleton Bid-
dulph, brother, we believe, to the hon. member for
Denbigshire, gets the vacant company; and Lord
Thomas Clinton, a son of the Duke of Newcastle, the
vacant Cornetcy.

BILL.

The following opinion was given by
James Lewis
Knight and Robert Clayton Walters, Esquires, in
September last, upon consideration of all the acts of
parliament relative to the Bank of England, including
the Bank Charter Act of last Session :
We are of opinion that it would not be dm; breach of
faith with the Bank of England for the King to grant a
charter of incorporation to a joint stock bank of deposit in
London ; or for parliament to grant au act to such joint
stock bank, enabling it to sue and be sued in the name of
one of its officers ; and we think that until such an act of
parliament or charter be obtained, the business of the bank
may be carried on in the names of trustees, who (proper
provisions for the purpose being inserted in the deed of
settlement, and other proper precautions as to their deal-
ings taken) might alone sue and be sued in all proceedings
between the company and the public ; but we recommend
that the clauses in the deed having reference to this object
should be settled, and the precautions above alluded to he
considered by equity and common law counsel in con-
ference with conveyancing counsel.
(Signed) "J. L. KNIGHT.
" ROBERT WALTERS.
" Lincoln's Inn, Sept. 4, 1833."