The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

calamities may arise in the said colony which your
Honourable House will ever deplore.
1 That the wrongs inflicted on the said colony have
iI aroused the sympathies of all the neighbouring colonies,
and the whole of Southern and Eastern Australia is
agitated on the subject of transportation; while in Van
Diemen's Land leagues have been entered into among
the colonists not to employ convicts arriving after a cer-
tain day of the last year; at the same time petitioners
have heard and believe, that among the convicts active
efforts are being made, on every homestead, to intimi-
date and drive away any free labourers employed by the
colonists.
That, in this alarming state of things, your petitioners,
as deeply concerned in the well-being of the colony of
Van Diemen's Land, humbly, but confidently submit to
your Honourable House, that every consideration of jus-
tice and good faith, religion and morality, as well as of
good policy, requires that henceforth no more convicts
be sent to the said eolony; and they submit that it wooll
be grievous indeed if the future nations of Australia
should date their alienation from this country from such
a cause as their compulsory contamination by the parent
state.

INSTITUTION OF CIVIL ENGINEERS.
On Tuesday, May 20 (Wm. Cubitt, Esq., President,
in the chair), the paper read was "On the Isthmus of
Suez, and the ancient Canals of Egypt," by Mr. Joseph
Glynn, M. Inst. C.E. The author's attention had been
directed to this subject when the best route to India was
under discussion, and that by the River Euphrates to
the Persian Gulf was contended for, as offering advan-
tages superior to the one now so successfully adopted
through Egypt anal by the Red Sea. The possibility of
the restoration of the ancient canals in the Desert, na•
turally formed part of the consideration of the practi-
iclhityshootifldea6dtm'bil
cwahbi
tisohfintg a
he
passage communicationoflarge vebsyselswfartoemr,
sea to sea.
It appeared that about six hundred years before the
Christian era, Darius (Hystaspis) completed a canal
from the Nile, a little above Bubastes, to the Red Sea,
near to Patumos; this canal, which in some places was
nearly 150 feet wide and 30 feet in depth, passed
through the valley to the Bitter Lakes, and was navi-
gable for vessels of considerable burden, only whilst
the Nile was high, as it was filled from that source, and
that it served by its branches for the purposes of irriga-
tion and fur the supply of fresh water to several impor-
tant cities. The ancients assumed that there existed a
difference of level between the waters of the Mediter-
ranean and those of the Red Sea, and precautions vv, re
taken to prevent inundations, as for avoiding any mix-
ture of sea water with that from the Nile.
Toffs canal, after falling into decry, was restored
about the year 644 of the Christian Era, by the Caliph
Omar, who introduced many improvements and changed
its junction with the Nile to a spot near Cairo, which
had the effect of keeping the navigation open for a
longer period during each year. The gradual decadence
of Egypt, however, induced the degradation even of this
great work, so that after about one hundred and twenty
years the channel became choked up, and for above 1,000
years it remained neglected and almost forgotten, until
during the French expedition, when Napoleon, who
could always find leisure for encouraging the arts of
peace, and promoting the interests of sience, directed a
complete survey to be made by Monsieur Le Pere, an
engineer of eminence, whose report and survey and
estimate for construction, with a line of levels from the
Mediterranean to the Red Sea, were published in De-
non's " Description de l'Egypt."
It was proposed to follow nearly the old line of canal,
dividing the length into four sections, at such levels as
should enable the navigation to continue open for nearly
eight months each year. The entire cost was esti-
mated at about twelve hundred thousand pounds sterling.
The direct distance from the northren extremity of
the Red Sea to the Mediterranean being about seventy-
five miles, the length of canal would be about ninety-
three miles, through a low barren sandy plain, offering
no obstacles to the speedy execution of any engineering
work, and traversing many lagoons and lakes, the level
of whose bottoms was stated by the French engineers to
be from 20 feet to 54 feet below high water mark in the
Red Sea, at Suez.
The mean rise of the tide in the Red Sea was found
by M. Le Pere to be about 53- feet to 6 feet, and that in
the Mediterranean about 1 foot. The surface of the for-
mer at high water being stated to be about 32i feet
(English) above low water at Tyneh in the latter.
The various points of elevation above the Mediterra•
nean would be thus:—
High water at Suez ...
Low water at Suez ...
Mean difference ... •••
Extreme rise of the Nile at Cairo, in
ordinary seasons ... •
••• 39i 19 If Lowest point of the Nile at Cairo, in
ordinary seasons ... •.• 16 a
Mean difference •
... ••• ••• •••
271 ~ Consequently, the Nile, during a
the height of the inun•
dation, at Cairo, would bo 9 feet above high water
level, and 14 feet above low water level at Suez.
M. Prony, M. Michel Chevalier, and Colonel Chesney,
considered the construction of a canal practicable, in a
country where no physical impediments existed, and
where labour could be obtained, perhaps, at a cheaper
rate than in any other part of the world.
In the discu,sion which ensued, in which Mr. R. Ste-
phenson, M.P., Colonel Hamilton Smith, Mr. Ayrion,
Mr. Greaves, and the author of the paper took part, it
was shown from recent careful levellings and personal
examination, that the levels of low water in the Red
Sea and the Mediterranean were identical, and, theie•
fore, that the project of M. Le Fire, being based on a
presumed difference of upwards of thirty feet between
the seas, was not feasible; but that the error in the
levels might be accounted for by the fact of the work
being executed during a period of war of the meat
harassing description.
It appeared, that the ridge now existing at the end 'of
the Red Sea, towards the Bitter Lakes. consisted of ter-
tiary strata, the fossils of which were identical with those
of the London Basin and the Hill of Montmartre
(Paris), and that it had no doubt resulted from a geologi-
cal upheaval which had materially changed the features
of the district. If this position were correct, there was
little doubt, that originally the Bitter Lakes formed
the head of the Red Sea, and the Ruins of Serapeuin,
and of other extensive towns around, indicated that the
district ha,l, at at a remote epoch, possessed great fer-
tility, being irrigated by the Canal of Sesostris, by which
Lake Temsah was supplied with fresh water ; in fact,
that at that period it was undoubtedly a fertile, beautiful
region, and really " Goshen," the " Land of Promise."
'This interesting discussion terminated the business
meeting of this part of the session, which was announced
to be resumed on the second Tuesday in November.

AMENT,

Your petitioners therefore humbly pray that
your Honourable House, taking the premises into
serious consideration, will adopt such steps as to
your Honourable House may seem merit, at once
to arrest the lumber transportation of offenders to
the colony of Van Diemen's Land.
London, May, 1851.

... 30i feet, French,
... 25
/I
;. 27i „ „

THE COUNTRY MARKETS.
DERBY SMITHFIELD MARKET, MAY '2o.—The number
of fat beasts to-day was larger than that of last week, and
the quality was generally good; the supply from the north was
large of bullocks and heifers. The supply of sheep and lambs
was large. Fat and store calves were considerably less in
number than they have been for the last two months.
Beef, 5d to sid ; mutton (out of the wool), 5d to 51d ; lamb,
7d to Od ; veal, -lid to 5d per lb ; pigs, 7s to Os Od per
score. Rough fat, 3s 6d per stone of 141bs. Hides, ILd to
2d per lb ; calf skins 2d to 4d per lb.
UPPINGHAM, MAY 21.—Wheat 36s to 41s; barley 23s to
25s Od ; oats 20s to 25s ; beans 29s to 325 per quarter. Butter
7d to 7,1 d per lb ; eggs 25 for is.
BOSTON, MAY 21.—Wheat, red 27s to 38s Od, white 37s
to 40s, extra 42s to 00s ; barley 22s to 25s ; oats 17s to 225;
beans 27s to 32s ; peas 001 to (Os per quarter.
NEWARK, MAY 21.—Wheat, white 40s to 465, red 38s to 425;
barley, malting 23s to 255, grinding 20s to 21a ; oats, seecl,
23s to 265, feed Otis to 00s; beans, 32s to 345; tares 36s o
40s; malt, 48s to 52s per qr.
LYNN, MAY 20.—Wheat 30s to 365, fine 38s 40s to 42 ;
barley OOs to 00s, fine OOs; oats OOs to 00s, fine OOs to 0011;
beans Os to 1-s, fine Os to Os per qr.
LOUTH, MAY 21.—Wheat 34s to 395; barley 21s to 2431;
oats 14s to 16s ; beans 22s to 26s per qr.
MELTON illowanay, MAY 20.—Wheat, :383 Od to 4431;
barley 2 5 to 26s ; oats 2os to 243 ; beans 2bs to 32s per qr.
Butter 7d to td per lb ; eggs 22 to 24 for IS.
EDINBURGH GRAIN MARKET, MAY 21. —We had a fair
supply of grain in the market to-day. Sales ready for all sorts,
and prices a little up. Top of wheat the same as last week,
and the average 8d up. Barley on the top the same as last
week, and the average 8d down. Oats on the top Id up, and
the average 2d up. Beans on the top is up, and the average
Is 4d up. Unsold-135 qrs wheat, 39 qrs barley, 71 qrs oats,
and 00 qrs beans.
Top of Wheat ... ... ... 650 b. 44s Od
„ Barley ..• •„, .. 57 lb. 32s Od
, Oats ... ...
••• ... 44}1b. 25s Od
„ Beans ~ ••• ... 6741 b. 34s Od
EDINBURGH CATTLE MARKET, MAY 21.—The number
of cattle was 611, or 134 less than last week. Top price
of the best cattle, 6s 9d; current, Os to Cs ed ; secoLdary
and inferior, from is Od to 5s Od per Dutch stone. A good
clearance was effected. The number of sheep and lambs this
morning was 1,225, or 476 less than last week. Top price of
the best mutton, t'Ld per lb ' • current, 6d; ewes and inferior
sorts, 5d to .*1 per lb. Lambs, top, 225; current, 18s,
and down to 15, a head.
DUNBAR, MAY 20.—Wheat, weighing 001bs, brought 425,
and prices to 36s Od. Barley, weighing Oolbs brought
Cos Od, and prices to 00s od. Oats, weighing 43i-lb's, brought
22s 6d, and prices to 20s Od. Beans and peas, weighing
001bs, brought 00s Od, and prices to 00s Od.
CORK, MAY 21.

Barrels.
13 White wheat 225 Od to 00s Od Currency.
00s Od— 20
0 Red wheat oos Od to 00s Od
00s Od-20 dostote
0 Barley oos Od to 00s Od
00s Od-16 do
0 Bere ......... Os Od to Os Od 09s Od
62 Oats ......... lO5 2d to 11s 9d 11s Bd-14 do
0 Pigs ............ 008 Od to 00s Od 00s Od per cwt Quantity sold at the Highest Prices:-
0 barrels white wheat; 0 red ; 0 barley; 0 bere; 2 eats;
0 pigs.
Quantity of Grain and Number of Pigs sold last week
Wheat, 21. Barley, 18. Oats, 483. Pigs, —.
PRICES OF BUTTER.
CANT.
CURRENCY.
First quality
Second quality
Third quality ............
Fourth quality
Fifth quality
Sixth quality
Return of Cattle sold for the week ending May 17 :
Pigs, 357. Sheep, 469. Co CORE.—Flour—Firet Ils6d to 12s Od; ws,
ext 82.
ra 6d
seconds, lOs 6d to 11s Od; households 9s to 10s Od;
thirds 75 to ;
8.
per cwt. Oatmeal lOs to 10s 6d; Indian meal 7s 6d to Bs3d; w 123
heat-
meal, 9s 6d to 10s per cwt. Indian corn 71 15s Od to 810 s Od per
ton. Bran 80s Od to 85s per ton. Hay—Farmers 208 to 375; average
343; dealers 44, to 52s Od; average 00a per ton. Straw—Farmers
108 Od to 25s Od ; average 00s ; dealers 28s Od to 32s Oil;
average 00s Od per ton. Bread—Wheaten loaf sid to 6d ;
household loaf 4id to 5d per 41b. Fresh butter, 104 to
12J per lb. Eggs-3s 4d to 3s 6d per hundred. Coals—
Newport 14s Od ; Lydney 155 ; Landore 14. ; Neath Culm,
13s 6d per ton. Tallow 385 Od to 405 per cwt.
Willie/17'41 t:. 6Pcd ; 58mt?tdtonper5dimtl.)oeria7ld ;galvleolal 4411%1e:0t
5d ; pork 4d to Od ; bacon 7d to 8d ; sausages 5d per lb.
Hops 61105 to 0/ Os per cwt. Bangor slates 3/ 25 6d to 3/
tis per
ton. Bark—Barbary 71 Os to 81 Os ; Valonia 151 to 0/; French 6/ Os ; Spanish 0/ per ton. Fleece Wool 14s to 15s per stone.
Hemp 32/ t 034/ per ton. Fish—Scotch herrings 19s to 00s ; red
ditto, 26s to 00s per barrel ; Newfoundland, 10/ Os to 11/ per
ton. Timber—Memel, 80s per ton ; red pine, 31 10s ; yellow
ditto, 2/ 15s per ton; deals, 12s to 15a per 100. Hides—
Market 24s to 345; salted 2.5 s to 34s per mat ; calf skins
3id to 3id per lb. Potatoes, white 8d to 10d; Minions,
12d to 15d. Guano— Peruvian, 11/ 10, ; Ichaboe, 8/ to 91 Os
per ton. Tar—Archangel, 192 per barrel.

EXTENSIVE SWINDLING ZN FRANCE.—The police
have just arrested six individuals for swindling on an
extensive scale. They became acquainted in the debtors'
Prison of Clic:lw, and established what they called ions-
Rmission houses, on the Boulevard St. Martin, and in the
ue de Larochfoucald. They issued pompous circulars to
anufacturers and tradesmen, stating that they had found
smeagniticent dehouches for all descriptions of goods. In con-
e:), considerable quantities of merehandize were trans-
sessieny.oulAefetperhinethi
miltutee(nl
signed
by
them, and they gave in return bills of exchange,
pealrartoernti
they r_y_,Ten of straw. They sold the goods for whatever
nthtehyeeceamfreauidnetoisthtehier
per-
Bordeaux son also last year or a '
Bordeaux and Toursgfonrized a service of tilburies between
the use of certain speculators the quotations of the Paria
Bourse, before 0,
...ey could ard
hides travelled with great To lii'i.in. regular course. The ye-
and the mystery which hungPouv,eti., ti from their colour
the " Cabri9lets du diable."..l'ream them:, they were called 1
,••per.•

pouf

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 23, 1851.

be received in no obstructive spirit by the Government.
He thou,ght this was peculiary the time when efforts for
education were necessary, because passing events
were such as to make them sensible of the
position of their country in this particular. In
almost every department, military, constitutional,
and literary, there was room for self-congratulation, but
on this one of education, it was not a question whether
England was first among the nations, but ninth, tenth,
or twelfth. If they looked, too, at their
own internal condition—at the mass of pauperism
and crime which existed among them, they
would also see what necessity there was for an educa-
tional movement. They heard a great deal of the
over-crowded state of the labour-market, but if they
looked at the report of the inspectors they would find
that in many districts, while there was a super-
fluity of uneducated labour, there was a great
deficiency of that which required skill and education.
The constitution of the country supposed knowledge and
education in all subjects, and called upon all citizens to
discharge duties which could not be discharged by un-
educated men. The means now pursued fur the promo-
tion of education were not sufficient to carry out a
system of education sufficient for the wants of the peo-
ple. To prove this, he would rely only on the reports
of the Government Inspectors themselves; all of which
were nothing mere than a continued illustration of
the necessity of some measure being introduced for the
compulsory adoption of a general system of education.
He did nut mean to charge the Committee with in:en-
tional partiality, but apparent and inevitable partiality
was inherent in the system. There was another point
which gave the appearance of partiality to the adminis-
tration of these grants. Of all the school inspectors ap-
poinied there were only three who did not belong to
one profession, and that was the Church. There
was also another show of partiality induced by the in-
structions which the Committee of Council laid down in
regard to the bestowment of grants. Money
was given, not in proportion to the educational
wants of a district or locality, but the amount of volun-
tary subscriptions which were collected for the purposes
of education. He found that an application for a grant
was refused, because no particular religious education
was given in the school, yet in many schools of
this description, a more sound and really moral
and religious education was afforded than in many
establishments professing to be of a higher character.
In rural districts the greatest difficulties had to be
encountered in the formation of charitable schools,
and the owners and occupiers of land contributed
very trifling sums towards the funds required for the
purpose. Hence the necessity became apparent for the
interposition of the Government to make all classes pay
in proportioa to their means to the education of the
people. Another reason why the present system could
not accomplish the purposes of a national education was,
that a religious difficulty stood in the way, and that
people refused to pay for that which did not agree with
their religious tenets. The Hon. Member then quoted
passages from the reports of Mr. Kennedy and other
school inspectors, for the purpose of showing the neces-
sity of some measure being devised for the extension of
a wise and enlightened system of secular education.
The inspectors did not speak merely from the condition
of the great bulk of the schools actually in existence;
their impressions were derived from the best class of
schools, and they had seen these schools in their best
condition. We need look no farther than this impor-
tant fact, however, that the schools actually existing
were twice as large as was necessary for the accommo-
dation of the children who attended them. In the gene-
ral return of the schools aided by Government grants,
amounting to 3,255 schools, it was stated that the ac-
commodation for children was adequate to 539,000, but
that the average daily attendance was only 246,979.
With regard to the administration of the Goverianent
grant, too, in his opinion there had been very consider-
able partiality exhibited—not an intentional but an in-
evitable partiality—which was inherent in the system,
' and which could not but indispose a great portion of the
people to giving their cordial co-operation in carrying
( out that system. Now it could not be doubted that the
I British and Foreign School Society had effected much
good throughout the country; but what figure did it cut
in the grant for public education? In the year 1840,
when the public grant was only 60,000/. the amounts
granted to the National Church Schools and the British
and Foreign Schools were about equal; being 5,2464 to
the one, and 4,2201. to the other. Iu the next year the
grant was increased, and the disparity showed itself. The
Church Schools received 13,1971., and the British and Fo-
reign Schools wily 10,9451. In 1849 the disparity became
extraordinary, and the Church Scho •Is obtained 39,574/
out of the public grant, and the British and Foreign
Schools only. 3,350/. ; and last year the public money
applied to Church Schools was 24,7204, while that to the
British and Foreign Schools was only 386/. Now he
did not complain of intentional partiality in the distri-
bution of the grant. He believed the discrepancy was in-
separable from the fact that the religious difficulty, and
other difficulties incidental to education, had thrown the
British and Foreign Society back in its claims on the
public funds. But could it be said that this disparity
represented the relative position, labour, and usefulness
of those two great societies? And was not an injurious
effect necessarily predated thereby on the public mind?
But whatever was the cause, there was the result.
' Another point in which the present system exhibited
partiality, though it was not intentional, was, that of all
the inspectors appointed, there were but three who did
not belong to the Established Church; and these three
were absolutely requisite—one for the British and Fo-
reign, one for the Wesleyan, and one for the Roman
Catholic schools. Another appearance of partiality was
produced by the restrictions laid down by the Privy
Council in the bestowal of grants. It gave the least help
where most was needed. It gave in proportion, not to the
educational wants of a locality, but to the amount of the
voluntary subscriptions raised in that locality. Another
partiality, which had an injurious tendency in certain lo-
calities, was this—poorratepayers in the rural districts did
not look with complacency at finding themselves rated to
give an education to pauper children, which they wore
unable to bestow upon their own children—(llear)—and
it was stated in the third annual report for 1850 that
the high standard of workhouse education was fast
ceasing to be exceptional. But the worst of the partial
results of the existing system was the inequality with
which the support of schools pressed upon the different
classes, and especially upon the clergy, The Hon.
Gentleman here read the list of subscribers to one vil
lage school, from which it appeared that to raise the
sum of 281., the expense of that school for one year, six
landlords and farmers subscribed ss. a piece, the princi-
pal landowner in the parish three guineas, a friend of
the rector 5/., and the pour rector himself 17s. 10s.—
(Hear, hear.) Surely a state of things like that showed
the absolute necessity for the intervention of Govern-
ment, so far as to call upon every man to pay according
to his means. There was an aversion in persons to pay
towards the support of that which did not agree with
their theological opinions, and yet the present system,
in a strange manner, whilst giving a stern denial to
merely secular education, patronised every kind and
species of theology, applied the public money to any
creed, patronised error as regularly as truth, and seemed
to rest on the conviction that there was some evil in
mere instruction which might be rectified even by a bad
theology.—(Hoar, hear.) The British and Foreign
Schools Society had as exclusive a creed as the National
School Society themselves. And where, he asked, was
the wisdom, the justice, or the propriety of calling upon
Protestants to supply funds for the support of schools
in which they had been told Madonuas were wor-
shipped by the children, and which schools were em-
ployed in the promulgation of that to which the country
took the most violent exception?—(Hear, hear.) Every
one had now to pay for something which he dis-
believed, and he in turn became the occasion of taxation
upon others for that which he believed and they did not
believe. When he mentioned an educational rate, he
trusted it would not seem to be an enterprise involved
in expense welch a nation like this ought to grudge. Tne
best calculation which had been made proved that in the
pound would be j
county of Lancaster twopence in the
sufficient for the erection of all the schools which might j
be required for the whole of the children of that county,
and he believed we were paying directly as much now
as we need pay for a complete system of national edu-
cation. But we could not do better than take the expe-
rience of America upon this matter. He held in his
hand a report signed by Mr. Henry Barnard, a com-
missioner appointed by Rhode Island in 1846, to com-
pare the different modes of public education throughout
the various states of the Union. And he stated in re-
ference to places where the system had been carried out
to completion, that whilst it gave a good education it
had diminished the expense of both public and private
instruction. The resolution which he (Mr. Fox) now
submitted to the House asserted the desirableness of local
government as well as of local taxation for the support
or these schools; and he believed that by this means
facilities would bo given for preventing some of the evils
which were frequently anticipated as connected with the
introduction of a new system. He was desirous of effect-
ing the separation of secular and theological instruction;
but it should be recollected that the separation or anni-
hilation of either of these modes was a totally different
thing. What he wished was that the schoolmaster should
fulfil his work of secular instruction, and thus prepare
and expand the mind for that religious training which
then the minister of the chapel or the clergyman of the
parish might bestow, and which he only could bestow
with efficiency. Religion required an intellectual atmos-
phere, and other faculties were to be trained besides
those which were to be exercised in the reception of re-
ligious truths and principles; and therefore the advo-
cates of secular instruction were, in fact, rendering much
more important service towards a religious education
than were those who made the appearance of the one
the sole object of their instruction, and threw the other
into comparative disregard. He contended, then, that
they were bound to separate secular and religious in-
struction, or, without it, there was no chance
whatever of a general education in this country.
They could produce no combination but upon
this system. And was it wholesome that chil-
dren should be trained up from their earliest
youth within-the lines of sectarian demarcation? Was it.
no good to them in after life to look back to their schooen
l.
fellows•—to remember the impressions which wereot then
made, and to have some better opinion of those wh dif-
fered from them upon religious points, than they could
have if they had been kept separate and apart onoacoaeouont
of their religious differences? There was !to cu xin
or coherence in the present system of a mimed religious
and secular instruction. What affinity bad the Apostles'
or the Athanasian Creed with the multiplication table,
for instance? Why, they were treated by themselves as
perfectly distinct in their own proceedings; for there
was a minute of Council which instructed the inspectors,
as to certain schools, to report only upon the secular, and
not upon the religious instruction. Did not this at once
destroy the theory of their being indissoluble, or there
being any advantage in so blending them together that
the onecould not be separated from the other? Besides,
religious education had been to a certain extent provided;
and the voluntary principle would do that, both in the Es-
tablished Church and in the Dissenting community. But

he would not say the voluntary principle in the Esta-
blished Church, because it was the bounden duty of the
clergyman to attend to the religion of the children as well
as the adults ; and let the work be well done by the
clergyman, where was the necessity for the inter-
ference of the schoolmaster in the teaching of religion ?
He was urging nothing new or unheard of, or for which
he had not the sanction of authority. In an episcopal
charge delivered two years ago in St. Paul's, the Bishop,
in commenting upon the question of education, observed
that however valuable masters of schools might be in
other respects, they seldom found them possessed of
ability to communicate real religion; that the doctrines
which led to practical godliness must be inculcated by
those whose office it was to expound the Bible; that the
literary charec er of the school might depend on the
master, but the religious character must depend on the
clergy. The separation of religious and secular educa-
tion was in fact acted on in practice in all scholastic
establishments, such as the R iyal Naval School arid
others, over which the Government had control, just as
it would be in the schools which he proposed.
It was
only when they considered instruction in a charitable
point of view that they gave the preponderance to reli-
gious teaching. The Bible was not a book which should
be given into the hands of poor ignorant children for the
purpose of teaching them to read. Such was the
opinion of Dr. Hook—an opinion which was sustained by
the authority of one of the most eminent men this coun-
try ever produced, whose philosophy was as beneficent
as his eloquence was brilliant, and whose piety
was as unquestionable as his mighty talent—he meant
Edmund Burke—who, in a speech deliver -d some eighty
years ago in this House, in the year 1772, observed
that the Bible was no summary of doctrines regularly
digested, but a venerable and multifarious record of Di-
vide promises. Such a book was not therefore the only
fit and suitable work to be entrusted to the compara-
tively uninformed schoolmaster for the teaching of the
ignorant children under his charge. They had all expe-
rience of that in this country, for it had not been so ef-
fectual a barrier against criminality as had been sup-
posed. For twelve consecutive years the criminal tables
showed an increase of criminality in the imperfectly
educated. Such tables tested the value of sound instruc-
tion by a constantly diminishing ratio in the per-ceetatee
of criminals well taught; they showed a constantly dirnt-
fishing ratio in the per-centage not taught at all, but a
constantly increasing ratio in the imperfectly taught.
The decrease in the former was 33 5.10 to 31 5.10 per
cent., while the increase in the latter was from 53 1-10
to 59 5.10 per cent. Religious teaching failed, in fact,
because it was not sufficiently combined with secular
education. The Irish national schools were much better
condu.cted in respect to the separation of theological
from secular instruction than the schools in this coun-
try. There was a larger portion of the secular element
in the instruecion given, and the faculties of the children
were, therefore, more fully developed. The result
was, that from 1845 to 1849 (the years to which the re-
turns he had got applied), the number of those com-
mitted who could read and write, instead of increasing,
as in this country, decreased from 26 3-10 per cent, of
the whole criminal population in the first-named year,
to 17 6-10 per c- nt. in 1849 ; whilst the number of
criminals who could neither read nor write increased in
a corresponding proportion—a result exactly the re-
verse of what took place in this country. In the re-
port of the inspector of the Lancashire Sunday schools,
analogous results were traced, which proved that Sun-
day-school teachitg required something in addition to
its ordinary character to render it efficacious. It was
necessary to do something, as the voluntary system did
not meet the emergency, and was nut capable ef xeen-
sion so as to meet it. If, therefore, not on the ground
of preference, at least on the ground of nscessity, te
were thrown back on some such plan as that coetaitihedy in the proposition he should submit to the House, that
conviction was growing end spreading throughout the
country, especially among those whose co-operwhin was
necessary to the success of a general system of educa-
tion by the working classes. A number of such schools
had already been established in London, where the edu-
cation, according to the judgment of Mr. Mosley, the
inspector of the British Wedyan denominational h choo Is ,
was of a high order. The same gentl- man also spoke of the great and growing attention which this educational
problem excited amongst the great iseicantile and ma-
nufacturing interests of the North, and he added that be
ha I been invited to inspect most superior educatiunal
institutions which had risen eut of the efforts of the
working classes, sided by their employers, to elevate
themselves in the scale of intelligence. He thanked the
House fur it. attention, and he had only to say that at
the present time, amidst tne conflicts of pitiless! parties
—amidst the collision of rival churches and hierarchies
—amidst the striea of sects, and the war of different
classes, systems, and interests—amidst the collision of
their various systems of policy, whether commercial or
constitutional—amidst the competition of nation,, and
the development of industrial and artistic energies,
nothing could better engage the attention of the Legis-
lature than building up an educational fabric of national
greatness and prosperity, founded on the broad basis of
national intelligence. The Hon. Gentleman concluded
with the motion of which he had given notice:—" That
it is expedient to promote the education of the people in
England and Wales, by the estaelishment of free schools
fur secular instruction, to be supported by local rates,
and managed by committees, elected specially for that
purpose by the ratepayers."
Sir G. GREY said the Hon. Gentleman had begun
his speech by referring to some observations made
by the First Lord of the Treasury on the subject of
education out of that House, and from theta he anti-
cipated that though the Government might not concur
with him in the proposition expressed in his resolution,
it would not be met by them in an obstructive spirit.
He assured the Honourable Gentleman, though he could
not consent to his resolution in the form in which
it was expressed, he should not meet in a spirit of
opposition any attempt that might he made to extend
the means of sound and useful education amongst the
children of the great body of the people of this kingdom;
and still less would ho oppose any attempt to draw the
different classes together, with a view to combining the
different religious denominations in the promotion of
that important subject. Ho did not dispute that there
were great deficiencies in their present educational sys-
tem, and which were inherent in that system, as applied
to the great body of the people. But he must also re-
mind the House of the great increase which had of late
taken place in the means of education among the lower
clases—au increase not only in the number of the
sc'iools, but also in the improved condition of the
teachers, their qualifications for the discharge of their
duties, and the improved character of the education fin
parted. He admitted, at the same time, that much re-
mained to be done; but they were now asked to assent
to the proposition that it is expedient to promote the
education of the people of England and Wales by the
establishment of tree schools for secular instruction, to
be supported by local races, and managed by com-
mittees elected for that purpose by the ratepayers.
So far as the application of local rates to supply
existing deficiencies in education, he was not prepared
to differ with the Hon. Gentleman. There could be
no reasonable distinction drawn between the applica-
tion of local rates and the appropriation of a portion
of the general taxation of the country to the pro-
motion of education; and there might be advan-
tages from local management, provided ffficie it in-
inspection of the schools were secured. To that part of
the plan he had no objection; but he must hesitate be-
fore adopting a resolution on the expediency of enforcing
a system of local rates for the purpose, because the cir-
cumstances of the different parts of the country were so
essentially dissimilar, that though the system might be
applicable to the country generally, it would net apply
universally to ail parts. They had a precedent in allow-
ing a portion of the local rates for baths and wash-
houses, and in a Bill now before the House, for apply-
ing part of the local rates .to provide better dwellings
for the poor. If they might be applied, then, to the
improvement of the moral, seciel, aad pey.ical condi-
tion of the poor, there could he no objection to their
application in the advancement of the more important
object of Sound education. But everything depended
on what the character of that education was to be; and
he was bound to say he felt the same insuperable objec-
tion to the terms of the resolution that lie did to the
Honourable Gentleman's Btll of last year, which the
House had rejected, on the discussion of the second
reading, by a very large majority. His objection was,
that the principle of the Honourable Gentleman's motion
was that the application of the local funds should be
limited to the promotion of secular education, from which
religious education should be excluded altogether.
Such schools would, if they succeeded, supereeee those
now in existence. The Hon. Gentleman said it was not
fair to call on parties to support any system ofre
the
Hon. education of which they did not approve ; but
Hon. Gentleman did not get rid of a similarobjecetnioHn.
by his plan of applying the rates, whether local
or
there
ral, to the purposes of secular education only;
for grates who
were large numbers who contributed to the
retarded the communication of religious instruction
along with secular education as indispensable.
it should be remembered that. the frequenters
poor
schools had nowhere else to obtain religiooouisleignesatriuocrtitohne,
whereas the students in seminaries and. .
better classes had other sourcesfoart
aretliogeouasfmlisfterucwtheeenn,
while they were usually arrivedd were already
the religious impressions anopinions
formed; whereas, for the communication of catechetical
instruction the children of the poor could not be got to
frequent the church, and if they were to excludeorfdrooll.
their schools the practice of the reading of the Word
God, they would
deprive them of their only source of
religious instruction. That was the principle of the [f
Gentleman's present proposition, and of his Bill irst'
hich he had then objected and still objected;
aynedart,hteo w
repetition of that proposition now must meet
with the same opposition from the Government that it
had last year. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the
Irish national schools; but according to the Hon.
Gentleman's proposition these sobools would be absolutely
deprived of participation in the local rates, The Hon
Gentleman had also referred to the opinion of Dr. Hook;
but Dr. Hook bad never expressed an opinion hostile
re
to the readin
in stg
rof the Bible in schools with a view to
religious uction; but the Reverend Gentleman
thought it ought not to be used in schools for the
mere purpose of teaching children to read. Ile (Sir G.
Grey) doubted, too, if they really could prevent a
schoolenaster, fully conscious of his responsibility, from
conveying religious instruction to the children com-
mitted to his care. The Hun. Gentleman had taken oc-
casion to allude to what he called the rival plan devised
at Manchester. Some time back Mr. Entwistle and
some other gentlemen submitted to him the heads of at
system of education to be applicable principally, if not
solely, to the very populous districts of Manche: Bill Manchester
and
l to
Salfurd, and stated that they meant to propose
Parliament for the purpose not this session, as
there
would not be time, but next session. The schemeere
was
based on the combination of the representatives f dif-
ferent religious denominations in those large districts—
thewhich were
system to be supported out of therates
to be applicable to the maintenance of existing schools
in wbioh religion was taught. L7ery religious denomi.

nation was represented on their committee, and t 0;
withstanding the &jections of some Roman Catl3'!ll
priests, the Roman Catholic laymen remained on l',
committee, and the committee did not despair of del;
sing means of including the Roman. Catholics. It '
expected, too, they would bo able to include Leeds iris,
'o
operation, and with the probability of such a schen
succeeding it would be most inexpedient to affirm a 'e
solution which would exclude religious instruction from
b 0 ~.`
secular education. He trusted that the system
!erred to would he brctught forward successfully, a',
that it would be the means for augmenting the means
education and of combining the different classes of tie
community in one common effort for that laudable objectij
Mr. HUME said the Right Hon. Baronet seeraeolii
forget the great point at issue, the necessity of a gen Tie
education for the poorer classes of the country. Ml 3,
Hon. Member for Oldham had shown the clear non'
nexion between ignorance and crime, it behoved the
Government to attend to the Question. The R
Baronet said it was impossiele to deal with theialgnhetstit7,;
but it was done in the United States with the gre._a,end
success. He (Mr. Hume) aereed with his Hon. Fr:_er
that it was the duty of the country to educate the p. 71,0
classes for their respective conditions in life; and oho the
that it should be at the cost of the State. In 1rehin.a.......
Catholic priests objected to education without reliewu
hence the god!, as colleges; while the Right Hen. Baronetwe
said that he could not agree to any education that f
purely secular and uncennected with the teach% „
in
true religion; but there were upwards of twenty sei'vhe
England, each of them t-.achine a d fferent faith• United
was to say which was the true religion? In the Unitedite States the the villages of 50 individuals were obliged to low
tain a school tor six months, while those of 100ebut
obliged to maintain one a e ear. , This was done w,l'e ovseta
relign Ili difference, because religion was excludeo
them, and the children brought up alone in a knout"
lizeas
ledge of their duties to society. Were the cl than
of the United States less moral or less intelligent it
those of England? The exempt° of the Americanws
ere
least in this instance, should be looked to. Thereeens,
bringing up a moral, virtuous generation of c,'" „d the
capable of fulfilling all their duties; while in Engtilee s
different sects were quarrelling about who should have
monopoly of the education of the people. We ierle;
Friend did not desire to set religious iustruction a
for
on the contrary, he desired to fit the youthful mindee a
its due receptien. It was a duty specially worth'', dis-
senate to legi,late upon this subject; and it n/15, that
grace to England, rich, powerful, and populoulgent
there should be such au amount of crime o°4ler-erica
and arising, as was proved, entirely out of the ign-i the
of that class welch should be the best supP°ll° jou°
State. The present system created the most aeril;
difference between the several classes of the coletereeneed
the contrary one produced the best effects on theri-dren
States—Massachusetts, for instance, where the cuistate.
of the poor were educated at the expense of the the
In Edinburgh the result of an inquiry instituted lots,e
antectelents of five hundred prisoners proved that ea
was transmitted from generation to generation in many
families, because of the ignorance and neglect in, ; on
they had been left. He therefore called
old
men of property to consider whether it e.,1 di
not be better to adopt the system of his Hon. Fencer
and by increasing education reduce the amount of olloat
He hailed the Lancashire plan of education with goon-
satisfaction; and it that could be carried out his ato
Friend would be satisfied. Each parish sbould•ht% 0
tt poer of rating itself, fur the support of the Echo° os.
the parishes already had for baths and wasbli°°,i at
Under these circumstances he hoped the Noble Lord
the head of the Government, who with his fatnilie tee
always been the great supporters of education, will' hat
allow himself to be diverted by trivial diffrences, 90
would take the broad course. Surely EnOb:e•
might do that which was done in this matter by 0.
ricans.
atlso
Mr. A. B. HOPE should oppose the motion, bees et
he was desirous of giving all creeds the mesterei. her
liberty of action. The resolution of the Hon. Aleh-eith
fur Oldham was, in his opinion, one more fraught ,'„o,
oanger to the principle of religious liberty than, pern.
any other that had ever been laid before Parlianle:/e
If a purely secular education could be given, .be (be
Hope) would not object to it; but that was imPeseitie
by the very laws of nature.—(lleer, hear.) It dogmaticr. ligion was not taught in the schools under t'
system of the Hon. Member, some religion would Ilfe.ei,
0-
sully be taught, if it was none other than the neantleeo
of all faith. The Hun. Gentleman asked what bad to
multiplication tat le to du with religion, and last Yele
he had asked what had religion to du with the enjoyloe
of the beauties of nature; but to be t +tight anythingee
child should be taught to trace things to their rem
merits, and how, in that case, could a knowledge of Li.
Supreme Being be shut out from his mind? Whet',
the most elementary education was imparted, therefore'
or the most scientific, the result was identical. At to very lots e,t, these schools would have, consequently, to
teach Deism or Atheism. A compulsory system of edit'
cation was instituted by the motion, and a scheme !`ti
up side by side with the established religion which
taught these, and from which the poor could not escape'
Therefore it was that be (Mn, E.) considered the Fche°3o
of the Hon. Member as so fraught with danger; and- 0,.
this ground, as well as upon many others which h"
should not trouble the House to detail, he should oppose
the motion. He was at one with the Hon. Gentle:
man in his wish to improve the moral condition or
the people of this country; but he could not see why
the Anglo-Saxon principle of decentralization, which
had been adopted in trade and all other
matters, should not be allowed freely to exist in the
matter of education. Either religious toleration should
be abolished, and a compulsory religion enforced tii
well as a compulsory education; or education in respect
of religion should be left perfectly free. He had no
objection to its being made as free as possible, nor woul°,
he oppose taxation fur the purpose; but be was of
opinion that the only way to obtain a national systet" wee to distribute the amount centributed by the State,
in the ratio of their wants, among the several religious
denominations of the country. Be was for the adoption
of a system analogous to that of the London University,
and he was opposed to the gigautie scheme which it
prepesed of centralisation.
Colonel THOMPSON said the Hon. Gentleman bad
overlooked the fact that there were different establiah-
meets tor each denomination of Dissenters. Was there
no way of getting rid of the great obstacle to a general
education presented by religious difference? Why
should not an hour a day be assigned for religious it-1".
structioit ? Why should the religious question be forced
on public education? It was not mixed up with private
education. Beefs and girls could learn French or Italian
without it; why not the poor learn as well the art of
reading? He thought the various sects were afraid of
the spread of human knowledge. The State should take
advantage of it.
Mr. TRELAWNY denied the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Maidstone, that not to teach religion was A
Megaton of religion. He contended that education, as a
means of repressing crime, should be adopted by the
.State as,weil as any other mode of repressing it. The
amount expended on the punishment of criminals at
the present moment was enormous; and it behoved the
country to take up the subject. Ile could not compre-
hend the course of the Noble Lord in demanding an-
nually such a miserable pittance as 150,0001. for educa-
tion. If education was worth anything, it was worth
more than dna. Education would have put an end to
the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill; and he believed, if the Go-
vernment asked for such a sum as would give a good
' general education to the poor, that Parliament would not
refuse it, notwithstandieg the selfish opposition of the
middle classes to taxation. S a- far as he (Hr. Trelawny)
was concerned, there was no sacrifice which he was not
prepared to make on the subject.
air. W. PATTEN agreed with the Hon. Member for
Montrose as to the necessity for education at the public
expense, • but in his own county, as well as throughout
l s
zee supo n
.w o
liu lde be taken, and
believed that
tehdeuccaotuioutt,ryllogtenloeruanldlye,da,afta,
Chet
religion
was feeling in the country at large that
combined with education; it was so in
a uuid n stronge
Lancashire, where great efforts were made to educate
the people, and where those succeeded best which were
based upon religion. If nu other plan of education suc-
ceeded, he might, perhaps, Support that of the Hon.
Member; but until all those in process failed, he should
oppose the motion of the Hon. Member. He was of opi-
nion that the scheme now in agitation in Manchester, al-
luded to by his Right Hon. Friend, was the one best
adapted for the country; and though he admitted the po-
pularity of the rival scheme, he maintained that this was
equally popular. It was With great reluctance, however,
he voted against the resolution.
Mr. M. GIBSON said the first part of the speech of
the Right Hun. Gentleman
the Government were favourablegavehimto
speech to which he was was
favourable of'
scheme of education,
principle of a rate.
T t h
ethethon greatt
.Lhwamohepieeect
nay:
htherhi
rera,:st
ferred to the
general of rates"
whether a e
coo
u doubted,ld b
e esthaoblwever:
but then, if established, systemthey must not be denominationalished
or sectarian rates. If such kind of rates were adopted,
the result would be that a special majority would be able
to enforce on the minority of their fellow-parishioners
that system of religious teaching to which the minority
might be opp.ised. If then such a system were en-
forced, it would pat the whole country into a reli-
gious conflict. But if rates were to bo levied
without reference to religious denomination, it did not
necessarily follow that the schools would be irreli-
gious schools, as they bad been termed. This plan was
to give elementary instruction, and to set apart a special
separate time for teaching religious matters. It ap-
peared to him that the mere giving of primary instruc-
tion was so good in itself that it could not fail of pro-
ducing groat moral effects. He bad doubts of the pro-
pricy of allowing schoolmasters to be also religious
teachers. From what he had been informed, he was
over
the religious
by the Rev.
inclined to doubt whether Ministers were the proper par-
ties
studiesto haveef
children. the
I ea
controllingspeech
F. Grose at a public meeting, it was asserted that the
pow
more a man advanced in knowledge the more he receded
from religion. Now he differed from the sentiments of
the Rev. Gentleman—on the contrary, he belived the
more that a man was taught, the more The Rev, Gen he
become religious and moral. Liev. Gentlemanwas
fur-to
ther said, we ought to weave Church of England or
Evangelical principles with education. If we separated
secular and religious educatio, we should separate what
God had joined together. Now
he was sure the
of England would never agree to a people
.
system of public
rating, when they saw what l c ergymen proposed to du
with the money if they
. got it, and the system of secta-
rian education they proposed to establish. He ha n
the operation of secular educ •
in
a see
atm Belgium, Holland,
and other countries, and he defied any one to say those
countries were less moral than England. It was not
right to throw on the supporters of his Hon. Friend's
plan the charge of a desire to give ed •
mitten without
religion; thela•
object is Hon Friend had was to give
useful.secular instr • *
instruction, and he should therefore sup-
port it.
• Mr. WIGRAIi said the growing interest in the sub-
ject showed that the real question was not, whether edu-