The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-04 00:00:00

FRIDAY EVENING, JULY 45 1851.

the loss to the revenue was only the difference in the

duty between chicory and coffee; but now chicory was
grown in this country it was subject to no taxation, was
protected, in fact, by the amount of the duty imposed on
foreign chicory, and tins the revenue was injured by the
substitution of an art elf, paying no duty for one paying
a high duty. The Noble Baron declared himself dissa-
tisfied with the various reasons which his Right Hen.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had assigned
fer continuing the Treasury minute of 1E49, and con-
cluded by moving that the petition be laid on the table.

Earl dR,ANVILLE would not reply at that moment
to the arguments of his Noble Friend, as the subject had
already undergone the fullest discussion elsewhere. As
his Noble Friend had referred to the question of revenue
he would just say in reply that it was not desirable to
make any change in the fiscal arrangements respecting
coffee on that ground. The increase in the consumption
of tea and coffee, to which his Noble Friend bad referred,

was quite sufficient to explain the reason of the diminu-
tion in the consumption of coffee. If the Government
could take measures to prevent chicory from being sold as
coffee, it might be desirable to do so; but it had been stated
that a whole army of Excisemen could not prevent the
adulteration. The Treasury minute of 1840 was made on
the representation of the dealers that it was impossible
for the Excise to prevent the mixture of chicory with
coffee, and that under such circumstances it was impossible
for them, who sold unmixed coffee, to compete with

those who sold it thus adulterated. If this Were true

®n years ago, it was still more so at the present mo-

ment. He would not say that either Sir F. Baring,
Mr. Goulburn, or Sir C. Wood were infallible autho-
rities on matters of finance ; but it was something, he
thought, in favour of the present system that each and
all of them had determined not to rescind the minute
of 1840.

SMITHFIELD MARKET REMOVAL BILL.
Lord BEAUMONT then gave notice that he would
move to-morrow that the standing orders be dispensed
with in respect to this Bill.
COURT OF BANKRUPTCY.
Lord BROUGHAM reminded their Lordships that in
the spring of last year his late lamented friend, Lord
Cottenham, had presented a Bill to them, in which they
bad concurred unanimously, and had afterwards sent to
the House of Commons. It was a Bill abolishing patro-
nage producing great emolument, and among other
offices it abolished the office of chief registrar of the
Court of Bankruptcy, which produced to the holder
1,2004. a-year, and transferred the duties of it to the
Lord Chancellor's chief secretary, and on his accepting
the office the emoluments were to cease and determine.

He had been much surprised to hear that this Bill had
been dcnounced in the other House as something
very like a corrupt proceeding—in a word, as
a job—and bad been lost accordingly.—(Hear, hear.)
Would to God that we had more such jobs
Mr. Lergeant Lawes, the chief registrar, had died a few
weeks before the introduction of the Bill, and his duties
were performed provisionally under another arrange-
ment. Lord Cottenham, therefore, inserted a clause in
the measure to give validity to all the proceedings in
bankruptcy which had ,taken place subsequently to
Sergeant Lawes'a death. When the Bill was rejected
this clause was, of course, rejected also, and the conse-
quence was that all the proceedings in bankruptcy which
had taken place since Sergeant Lawes's death were in-
valid. The q'testion he wished to a.,lt was, whether it

was the intention of his Noble Friend on the Woolsack
to introduce forthwith a 13i11 to give validity to those
proceedings?
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that his Noble
and Learned Friend had correctly stated the facts of
the case. Ms own attention had recently been called to
the matter, and he found that the office of chief regis-
trar was essential to give validity to the most important
proceedings in bankruptcy. This disagreeable state of
affairs was entirely attributable to those who took
upon themselves the responsibility of throwing out
Lord Cottenhem's Bill. It would be necessary to bring
in a Bill to give validity to the proceedings in bank-
ruptcy which had taken place since the registrar's death.
Fortunately the blot had not been discovered, otherwise
the greatest confusion must have been caused. Persons
who took on themselves the responsibility of altering
or rejecting Bills were not always aware of the conse •
quences that would flaw from their acts. Complaints
had recently been directed against him because he had
not done as much as lay in his power since he became
Lord Chancellor to carry into effect certain recom-
mendations contained in reports of Committees. It was
said that two reports had recommended the abolition of
certain offices, one of which was that of secretary of
briefs, and another chaff-wax.—(A laugh.) It bad
been made matter of reproach to him that he had not
complied with the recommendation of the reports al-
luded to by abolishing these offices. In the first place, he
could find no such reports at all; he believed nonesuch
had ever been made. If those who made these state-
ments had only taken a little trouble beforehaed they
would have found that the offices referred to had been
abolished for years. It was also stated that ho had
seven secretaries. It might as well be said that the
First Lord of the Treasury had a number of secretaries,
because the Secretaries of State were subordinate to
him. (So we understood the Noble and Learned Lord,
who was occasionally heard very indistinctly.) When
he entered on his office the Lord Chancellor bad two
gentlemen of the chamber—offices which might fairly be
deemed sinecures. lie abolished one, and reduced the salary
of the other. Lord Cottenham had reduced the salary of
the gentleman of the chamber from 1,0001. to 7501., and he
(the Lord Chancellor) had now reduced it to 5001. The
office was no sinecure now. The gentleman of the
chamber, as he was called, was always at his (the Lord
Chancellor's) house till midnight, and sometimes later,
engaged in the performance of arduous duties. The al-
terations made in the law of bankruptcy had diminished
the duties of the secretary in bankruptcy, in consequence
of which he had been deprived of certain fees, and re-
tained only his salary of 1,2001. The salary of the prin-
cipal secretary was also 1,2001. That officer's services
were not personal to the Chancellor; his duty was to
make certain reports, which were submitted to the head
of the Court. Next came the secretary of presentations,
with a salary of 2001. The officer received every morn-
ing all the letters addressed to the Lord Chancellor on
the subject of Church patronage, and replied to those
which required an answer. It was this officer's duty to
make inquiries as to the qualifications of persons to be
presented to livings, and to obtain a certificate on that
head from each candidate. The office was held by
a nephew of Lord Cottenham, and its duties were
constant and responsible. The salary of the secretary
of commissions was 4001., and it was his duty to insti-
tute inquiries as to the fitness of the persons recom-
mended for the commission of the peace, particularly in
boroughs ; for the recommendation of lords-lieutenant
for county magistrates might generally be relied upon.
The secretary of lunatics was a most important
office, and the salary was 80uL The salary of the secre-
tary of decress and injunctions was 301., which was
about as much as the office was worth. It should be re-
collected that it was only in July last that he entered
upon his office, and since then his attention had been
directed almost day and night to the discharge of his
duties. It was said that with respect to the Court of
Chancery there had been too much inquiry and too little
done. What these complaints were made for he knew
not, but if the party making them had taken some
trouble he might have known what had been done. It
was true a great deal remained to be done, but he ven •
hired to say that a vast deal had been done. From 1824
downwards various orders had been made which ope-
rated seriously on the practice in the Court of Chan-
cery. Even as late as 1850 Lord Cottenham ieeued a
body of orders of considerable importance. A Bill in
which Vice-Chancellor Turner took an interest had
also had a material effect on proceedings in Chan-
cery. The orders he had referred to were the means
of bringing hundreds of cases into the paper for
hearing which formerly must have waited a con-
siderable time before arriving at that stage.
It was only those who knew not the evils
which were generated by alterations made by rash
hands who undervalued what had been done. A great
many changes had of late years been made in the bank-
ruptcy law—indeed it had been altered five or six times.
The consequence of those changes was that no large
bankruptcy was worked out now in the Court of Bank-
ruptcy.—(An indignant cry of " Hear," from Lord
Brougham.) How it happened he knew not, but the
parties who formerly came to the Court of Chancery,
with all its evils unredressed, with bankruptcy cases,
would not go into the Bankruptcy Court, but preferred
having recourse to a private tribunal of their own. It
was difficult to ascertain the cause, but certain it was
the new system had not worked in such a way as to
induce the merchants of London to have recourse to it
to determine bankruptcy cases in which they were in-
terested. It was notorious that not one out of twenty
large oases was worked out in the Bankruptcy Court.
This he stated on the authority of most respectable soli-
citors. As regarded the attack on himself, it was calcu-
lated to bring odium on the Government as well as him.
He would lose no opportunity of introducing amend-
ments into the Court of Chancery. A commission was
sitting, to which he mentioned any defects which struck
him. It was most unjust to accuse him of not wishing
reforms to take place, for he was a reformer before re-
form was in fashion, and he would not cease to be one
now.

Lord BROUGHAM protested against thr3 extraordi-
nary and unnatural course taken by his Noble and
Learned Friend. His Noble and Learned Friend rose
to reply to a question which at the request of his Noble
and Learned Friend he bad postponed putO,ng until then,
in order to give him an opportunity of:' answering a
charge made against him of not abolishi rig some offices
which he (Lord Brougham) bad abolished years ago,
and then his Noble and Learned Friend—not content
with defending himself—must needs carry warfare into
the territory of an ally, and attack him (Lord Broug-
ham), who had actually afforded him the opportunity of
being heard in his own defence.—(Heur, hear, and
laughter.) Yes ; his Noble and Learned Friend had
chosen wantonly to attack him, but he %VFW prepared to
defend himself. His were the " rash hands ' which
dared to interfere with the ancient and vene:7able system
of bankrupt law, and to establish the new jurisdiction of
the Court of Bankruptcy. What ! did hit) Noble and
Learned Friend hanker after the old system? Did he
want the 70 commissioners back again, and all the
other abuses which caused Lord Eldon the first day he
took his seat in court to declare that it waa a system of
corruption and abuse from beginning to end ? The so-
licitors, it seemed, were against the Bankruptcy Court.
They were right. Under the old system a bankruptcy
was a regular annuity to a solicitor.—(Haar.) Those
worthy gentlemen sighed to think that out of 20 in-
solvencies only one went to the Court of Bankruptcy, to
be "worked up" as his Noble and Learned Friend de
scribed the process. how this sad result came about
his Noble and Learned Friend did not kn ew, but so it
was; there must, however, he opined, be so, ale reason for
it. There was, and he would tell his Noble and Learned
Friend what it was. By improvements i•etroduced into
the law the old system had been so much amended as to
give now the greatest possible eucourag,ement to parties
to do that which had at all times bee, regarded as the

perfection of an insolvent law, namely, to have the bank-
rupt's property divided among his creditors, instead of
waiting until it had been run away with partly by pre-
ference creditors, and partly by respectable solicitors,
to whom the bankrupt's property was a nice little income.
This was it which had caused not more than 1 in 20 of
insolvencies to be carried to the Court of Bankruptcy to be

worked up. And who had a right to complain of that?
If the cases were otherwise settled, it must be by the
wish of the parties. If the creditors found they could
wind up the affair without the expense and delay conse-
quent upon going to the Bankruptcy Court, who had
any right to complain? His Noble and Learned Friend
took care to inform their Lordships that ho was the friend
of law reform. It had been his (Lord Brougham's) lot to
see many friends of law amendment from the time of
Lord Eldon, but they were all friends to the cause in
general. ome to particulars, and they objected to
every reform proposed.. When these professing reformers
were called upon to act their acts directly belied their
professions. That was the class of law reformers to which
his Noble and Learned Friend belonged, and he was
almost disposed to place him at its head.—(Laughter.)
There was another circumstance which might in some
measure account for the small number of cases carried
to the Bankruptcy Court—a thing which seemed so
sorely to have gravelled his Noble and Learned Friend
—and that was the prosperity of the country. But what
did his Noble and Learned Friend object to? Was it
the official assignees? If he did, he was the only
person who took that view of the case, except perhaps
his friends, the respectable solicitors. When the ap-
pointment of the official assignees was under considera-
tion, a member of the banking firm of Smith, Payne,
and Smith stated that the change would cause his
house to lose 7,0001. or 8,000/. a-year. The banker
alluded to the profits which his firm derived from the
immense sums left in their hands by the supineness
generated under the old system. The banker was jus-
tified in his anticipation. At the end of two years after
the establishment of the system which his (Lord Broug-
ham's) hands were accused of rashness for creating, up-
wards of one million and a quarter of bankrupt pro-
perty was obtained by the exertions of the official
assignees and other officers of the Bankruptcy Court;
and in a year and a half more the sum recovered ap-
proached two millions, all of which had been lying for
years and years—some portion as long as 20 or 30 years
—in different banks, owing to the idleness of creditors'
assignees and the supineness of those respectable soli-
citors referred to by his Noble and Learned Friend, all
of whom had more or less interest in letting things sleep,
and not winding up—in leaving creditors unpaid; ay,
and in leaving the bankrupts uncertificated ; for in many
cases, in consequence of the exertions of the officers
acting under the now-for-the-first-time-openly-con-
demned-system which his " rash hands" had established,
bankruptcies were superseded on payment of 20s. in the
pound. Here the Noble and Learned Lord proceeded to
eulogise the system of three classes of certificates esta-
blished under the new bankruptcy-law, and concluded by
expressing a hope that their Lordships would forgive
him for having felt it necessary at some length to repel
the gratuitous attack made by a person whom he bad
always regarded with partiality upon the system which
had been founded by his " rash hands."
The LORD CHANCELLOR, considering what he
brought upon the House, could not but feel some regret,
though he had not said one word that was calculated to
affect the feelings of his Noble and Learned Friend. Ho
certainly did regret being the cause of so much vehe-
mence, but at the same time he begged leave to say that
he had no intention of applying the term " rash hands "
to his Noble and Learned Friend. His Noble and
Learned Friend had spoken of his partiality atel kindly
feeling towards him (the Lord Chancellor). He had no
doubt that he did feel most kindly towards him, but he
must say that the specimen he had given of his kindness
and partiality was of a somewhat singular kiwi. His
Noble and Learned Friend knew that he was as sincere
a law reformer as he was, and, it it were not that it
',eight lead to another half-hour's occupation of their
Lordships' time, he would add, not so rash a one.—(A
laugh.) Would his Noble and Learned Friend allow him
to ask who were his instruments in putting an end to the
old st ite of things regarding bankruptcy? Why, it was
himself (the Lord Chancellor) and the Hon. 'Air. Ers-
kine.—(Hear.) He did not know whether his :Noble and
Learned Friend was a party to the annihilation of the
Court of Review; but that had passed away, as had
some other things, and another system was established
in its room. This session they had seen another system
by way of reform introduced, and such changes they
were likely to have from time to time as long as they
lived—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Brougham)--and very
properly so, no doubt. But he nevertheless felt bound to
say that a little care at the beginning would render such
trouble unnecessary. What he had said was that those
individuals who did not know the course of the law or
its practice, were rash in attempting to make alterations
in the law. He did not, however, apply those. words to
his Noble and Learned Friend; on the contrary, he
said that great as had been the labour and pains which
his Noble and Learned Friend had taken in emending
the bankruptcy law, unfortunately the amend meat did
not succeed. Beyond that he hod said nothing to war-
rant the discharge their Lordships had just heard. His
Noble and Learned Friend said the new system had re-
duced expense, had given certificates, and had done a
great many other things; but be must tell their Lord-
ships, after all that had been said, that credit ars would
not go into the Court of Bankruptcy; they did not find
it to their interest to go into that court. What ever ad-
vantage hie Noble and Learned Friend might see in his
new system of bankruptcy, he begged to say ithat both
the solicitors and merchants of London were content to
forego all those advantages; and he would add further,
that out of very numerous bankruptcies, the largest, the
most important, and those most requiring the advan-
tages of a good system of bankruptcy, were just the cases
that were managed elsewhere. It would not do ,to say this
was the fault of the solicitors, for their clients were men
of intelligence and business habits, and if they found
that their solicitors were following a course contrary
to their interests, they would soon check it. His
Noble and Learned Friend had been a party to passing
laws that created not a few difficulties and involved
people in expense. The public were no doubt indebted
to him for his efforts in the cause of reform, but he (the
Lord Chancellor) would, nevertheless, not forbear
making suggestions occasionally to his Noble and
Learned Friend, even though he should spook of his
"partiality" for him, and call him an enemy of reform,
and even though he should forget that he was en instru-
ment in his hands in bringing about his refoom in the
bankruptcy laws.—(A laugh.) Why, nobody could say
a word to his Noble and Learned Friend about his Bills
but it put him in bad temper—(A. laugh)--rout that
would not prevent him doing so whenever the occasion
might arise. He had passed not a short life. All that
life had been in the profession of the law, and he had
seen not only the advantages of reforms, isautiously
adopted, but also the mischiefs that had sudden from
constant alterations in the law, and from an haserease of
expense to those who had occasion to have recourse to
it. Therefore he did not consider every one three brought
in a measure to amend the law a reformer. He certainly
should apologize if he had applied the term " rash hands"
to his Noble and Learned Friend; but he bad not done
so. He used the words with reference to those who
were wholly unfitted to make alterations in the law,
being fully impressed with the conviction that -whatever
changes were made should be done with the best care
and caution, and should proceed from the best informed
minds.—(Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he begged pardon
of their Lordships for having called his igoble and
Learned Friend upon his legs, and having thereby been
the means of detaining them so long.—(A laueet )
Lord BROUGHAM was not aware that the offence
of his Noble and Learned Friend was in the nature of
suicide; he had thought it was in the nature of man-
slaughter; but it now appeared that the than ges which
he repudiated so much, and which were embodeied in the
Bill for the amendment of the bankruptcy sys Item, were
his own changes. His Noble and Learned Friend was a
party to it, for he said he was one of those who prepared
this measure.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—Not this, but that.
Lord BROUGHAM—WeII, that. His Noble and
Learned Friend was employed in preparing that mea-
sure, and it was of great advantage to the systefrn. That
system worked so well, and the Commissioners did
their daty so admirably, that any appeal from their
judgment was found to be superfluous; and that, he
begged to say, was the only change that hod taken
place. •
The subject then dropped.
The Representative Peers for Scotland Bill was read a
third time, on the motion of Lord REDESDA.X.E.
On the motion of Earl GRANVILLE, tb e Patent
Law Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Prisons (Scotland) Bill, and the Survey of Great
Britain, asc., Bill, went respectively through Committee.
The Manchester Water Companies Bill was read a
third time.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. July 3.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
Several petitions were presented in favour of the
Pharmacy Bill.
THE GREAT EXHIBITION.
Sir B. HALL presented a petition from aarylebone,
praying that the Great Exhibition be thrown open to the
public at a charge of one penny.
THIRD READINGS.
The following Private Bills were read a third time
and passed :
Cameron's Coalbrook Steam Coal and Swansea and

Loughor Railway (No. 1) Bill.
Imperial Continental Gas Association.
Saint Bartholomew's Hospital Estate.
Saint Pancras (Middlesex) Paving.
The report on the Kensington Improvement Bill was
considered and agreed to.
PETITIONS.
Mr. L. HODGES presented a petition from Kent in
favour of the Pharmacy Bill.
Mr. J. BELL presented several petitions to the same
effee t.
Mr. W. PATTEN presented a petition, praying for
limitation of beer-houses. . _

Mr. ANDERSON presented a petition from Orkney
in favour of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Mr. BAIRD presented a petition from the brewers
and distillers of Linlithgow against the Public• Houses
(Scotland) Bill.
Lord JOCELYN presented a petition from Bombay
in favour of the establishment of steam communication
between India and Australia; also a similar petition
from the merchants of London.

Mr. EWART presented a petition from 750 members
of the College of Preceptors and Proprietors of Schools,
praying that (in the Inhabited House Duty I3W) build-
ings devoted to the purpose of education may. like
houses connected with shops and warehouses, be sub-
jected only to the lower rate of charge.
ROYAL ASSENT.
Mr. Pulman, Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod, ap-
peared at the table of the House, and summoned the
Speaker to the bar of the House of Lords to hear the

Royal assent given to certain Bills (for which see

Lords' report). -
Mr. HU VIE presented a petition from the Royal
College of Veterinary Surgeons in favour of the Vete-
rinary Surgeons Exemption Bill.
WESTMINSTER-HALL.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Noble Lord at the
heed of the Woods and Forests whether any arrange-

ments had been made to secure the opening cf West-
minster Hall to the numerous strangers now visiting
London, without the payment of a fee.
Lord SEYMOUR said the hall was in the care of a

keeper, ever whom he had no control.
Mr. HUME would be glad to know who the keeper
was, and he would go to him himself.—(A laugh.)

Lord SEYMOUR did not know.
Mr. HUME said it was a disgrace to the country that
strangers should be compelled to pay a fee to see the.
Hall. The keeper was liberally remunerated at the
expense of the public, and it was illegal for him to ac-
cept any gratuity for opening the doors.
Sir G. GREY said the Hall was always open while
the Courts were sitting, and he would see if it could
not be opened when they were not.— (Hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP wished to know whether the
Right Hon. Baronet was aware of the gross indecencies
that had taken place through the indiscriminate admis-
sion of strangers into Westminster Abbey?
Sir GEORGE GREY said he certainly was not, nor
had representations been made to him on the subject.
BUSINESS FOR TO-NIGHT. _ _

Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to know whether
it was intended to take the Inhabited House Duties
Bill to-night.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Court of Chancery and
the Woods and Forests Bills would be taken before that.
EDUCATIONAL BOOKS.
Mr. S. HERBERT inquired if it was intended to
restrict the sale of the school books by the Irish Edu-
cational Commissioners to Ireland, and only to
the schools under the management of the Educational
Board, or would measures be taken to enable the public
to purchase them both in England and Ireland?
Mr. C. LEWIS said the Government had taken the
subject into their consideration, and the conclusion they
had come to was, to request the Commissioners to
make such arrangements as would secure to the public
in both countries a constant supply of authentic books,

and at modern/$:5 prices.
Mr. HUME had been given to understand that there
were parties in Ireland ready to undertake the printing
of the books without any assistance from the public
Exchequer, and afterwards to sell them at the prices
fixed upon by the Commissioners.
Mr. LEWIS said it was quits true that such an offer
had been made, and it was now under consideration.
FOREIGN FOSTAGES.

Mr. HUME wished to aek Viscount Palmerston
whether any arrangement or negotiation was in pro-
gress for reducing the charge of postage between this
country and France?
Lord PALMERSTON replied that a communication
had been made to the French authorities on the subject,
but as yet it had led to no favourable result.
Mr. ANSTEY wanted to know what progress had
been made in the the negotiation for equalizing postage
charges on both sides of the Channel? At present if a
letter was prepaid in Paris the postage was only Bd.,
but if the postage was paid in London it was 10d.
Lord PALMERSTON said the matter rested entirely
with the Posemaster-General, and he was therefore un-
able to say what progress had be n made.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL.
Mr. FRESLIFIELD understood that it was the
intention of the Government to move, by way of
amendment, in the second clause of the Ecclesiastical
Titles Bill the omission of the words which gave a com-
mon informer the power to put the provisions of the Bid
in force with the permission of the Law Officers of the
Crown. Now he had an amendment to propose which
ought fo come before that one; aud, therefore, be wished
to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whet amendments
he intended to propose, aud in what order, upon the
third reading of the Bill?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he did not propose to
make any alteration either in the preamble or the second
clause of the Bill, but he did intend to move the omission
of the words which the Hon. and Learned Member for
Abingdon had succeeded in putting into the second
clause. He could not, however, agree to the Hon.
Member's proposal to allow his amendment to come first.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said the amendments which had
been introduced into the Bill were not sufficiently un-
derstood in Ireland, and the third reading ought there-
fore to be postponed for a short while longer.
Lord J. RUSSELL could not accede to this proposal.
The amendments were fully understood on both sides of
the Channel.
Mr. GLADSTONE suggested that the debate on the
amendments and the general merits of the Bill should be
taken not on the third reading, but on the question that
the Bill do pass.
OATH OF ABJURATION (JEWS) BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the third reading of
this Bill.
Sir R INGLIS said ever since the first time when a
Bill on this unhappy subject was introduced he had
always regarded it as one of the most
unfortunate measures which had been brought
before Parliament. He looked upon it with the
greatest abhorrence, and the strongest repugnance, and
he believed it was both uncalled for and undesired
by the great mass of the people. On the pre-
sent occasion, however, he should not call upon
the House to divide, but would content himself with ex-
pressing once more his solemn objection to a measure
which would have the effect of destroying the Christian
character of the House.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it right to offer
a few words in explanation to the observa-
tions of the Honourable Baronet the Member for the
University of Oxford. It was well known that a Jew
was ready to swear to all that was contained in the
oaths of allegiance and supremacy. Then came the ques-
tion, was the oath of abjuration imposed in order that all
Members who entered the House should declare them-
selves Christians? Now, he believed that neither those
who proposed or who supported the oath of abjuration
ever dreamt of its necessity on that ground. It was intro-
duced solely for the purpose of making persons declare
that they would bear allegiance to the family then on
the Throne,_ and not to the descendants of James the
Second. To the conditions, therefore, of the oaths of
allegiance, supremacy, and abjuration the Jew was ready
to swear and subscribe; but no doubt the words at the end
of the last oath placed him in a position of difficulty, and
precluded it being administered to him in that form. He
(Lord John Russell), however, could not but think that
on this question the wishes of the people at large ought
to be very much consulted, and especially electors of
Members of Parliament.—(Hear.) Within the last few
days a second member of the Jewish persuasion had
been elected as a representative for a borough by a
majority of nearly 900 votes.—(Hear.) He was glad
to see that the Honourable Alderman who had been
thus elected had declared it as his intention not to
come down and offer to take his seat until the other
House of Parliament had an opportunity of considering
the present Bill.—(Hear, bear.) He (Lord J. Russell)
was ready to meet the views of that other House
of Parliament in regard to the sensitiveness
which had been evinced upon one clause of
the Bill, and if necessary to withdraw it.
Now that the House of Commons was about, for the
third time, to declare that Jews have a right to
sit in this House, he thought it was quite time
that the House of Lords should consider what was
due to the people. With regard to popular
elections, it struck him that the present state of the case
gave Jews a most decided advantage as against
Christians, because the Jew was able to hold himself out
to the voters as a persecuted man, and one in whom was
centered the principle of religious liberty. He did not
think that, even if this Bill passed, its effect would ex-
tend beyond admitting one or two Jews into Parliament,
and would certainly not give them any advantages over
Christians.
Mr. NEWDEGATE (who was received with loud
cries of " Oh") said that he did not agree with the Noble
Lord as to the effect which this question had upon popular
elections; an opinion never had been elicited from
the people at a general election. As for the
late election at Greenwich there were exceptional
circumstances which prevailed upon persons to
vote for Mr. Salomons rather than Mr. Wire, apart
from any political grounds. Mr. Wire had been an active
supporter of Baron Rothschild, and had been very much
employed by tile Jewish community in his legal capacity,
so that theelectors of Greenwich had merely to choose be-
tween a Jewish barrister and his attorney. He rejoiced that
the Right Hon. Baronet was not about to call upon the
House to express any further opinion upon this Bill,
because, in his opinion, Mr. Alderman Salomons al-
though he did not mean immediately to present him-
self, had, nevertheless, been elected under a pledge to
force himself into the House, in defiance of the law.
Mr. HODGSON was atonished that the Noble Lord,
who announced himself as the champion of Protestant-
ism, should come down to the House one night to propose
a measure to defend Protestantism, and on the next
push forward a Bill which was an insult to the feelings
of the majority of Protestants in the country.
Mr. PLUMPTRE thought that after the division on the
second reading of the Bill, which was only carried by a
majority of 25, it was not necessary to divide the House.
Still be should take the final opportunity of entering
his complete protest against the principle of the mea-
sure.
Mr. J. A. SMITH expressed his conviction that the
division in favour of the Bill on the last stage would have
been much larger bad it not been brought on at such a
late hour. He was quite ready to divide, and he was
sure that the majority would be a triumphant one.
After a few words from Mr. HENLEY,
The Bill was then read a third time and passed with-
out a division.
COURT OF CHANCERY AND JUDICIAL COM-
MITTEE BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill, Mr.
C. Limes in the Chair.
which provides for the appointment of two
Clause
judges to 1, a new
constitute, with the Lord Chancellor,
court of appeal, having been put,
Mr. J. STUART said that the clause was one which
seemed to him to require great consideration. The Bill
had been alluded to in the House of Lords as one affect-
ing their Lordships privileges; and although he did not
think that it trenched on those privileges, it would, no
doubt, materially affect the duties of the House of Lords
as a court of appeal from the Court of Chancery. He
believed that if the two new judges were to sit in the
House of Lords, instead of the Court of Chancery, a
very important public advantage would Le gained in a
perfectly unobjectionable manner. The supreme appeal
court would then be strengthened, without any interfe-
rence with the privileges of the House of Lords, or with
the duties of the Lord Chancellor. He had further to
observe, that under that Bill the duties of the registrars
would be considerably increased, and he would strongly
recommend that an additional registrar should in conse•
quenee be appointed.

The ATTORNEY CIENER said be bel'evc

was universally admitted that the Court of Clieucery, ."
an appellate court, had at present to real with an
mana;eable amount of business. The appetite court ;In
the Court of Chancery was preterred by suitors ill ri.‘ lie
ceses out of ten to the House of Lords in cons' queref its greater ceeepness, so that if his Hoe. and Learr ea'
Friend woeld leave that appellate court uneiisturbed it
would still continue to be overwhelmed witile busies ss.
There could be no doubt but if that Bill were odiqi, tea
the number of appeals to the House of Lords wo ,Lick be
toTO
considerably diminished, because suitors would ;cr
readily appeal to the Court of Chsncery, when sere
would be either two or three judges in that court, 0411
they would appeal to it as at present constituted s'"
only one judge. It was hoped, however, that the PO
new judges would not only be able to deal with the iSIP;
peals in the Court of Chancery, bat that they w enba
also be able to afford very valuable service by presi tiel
in the appellate court of the Privy Council. With re'
spent to the suggestion of his Hon. and Learned Fri end
that the number of registrars should be increased 1, be
had to observe that there could be uo objection to the
adoption of that proposal, if the present numbei of
those officers should be found insufficient.
Mr. FRBSBFIELD said, he thought it most imi tar'
tent that a sufficient number of registrars should be
provided under the new system; and he felt that ;fie
motives of petty economy ought to stand in the. War ef
such an arrangement.
Lord JOHN kW 6SELL intimated that he ive is dill-
posed to give the most favourable consideration to tt
proposal for an increase in the numb.r of registry rs•
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he wished to ca. tt
attention of the House to a flagrant instance o f
abuses arising out of the present cumbersome and yro
trstctsd system of conducting business in the Cow it of
Chancery. A lady of the name of Howard had, f locen
six or seven years ago, applied a sum of 45,0001. tc ilthe
purpose of making a provision for twerey wives or or"
phans of officers. But an attorney had thought pri )13er
to dispute the validity of the endowument in the a. iftio
of a person possessed of no property; and in conseque
of the delays in the Court of Chancery no decision 1 isad
yet been come to in the matter, while the funds of 1 tie
charity were being consumed, and while no portion of
them had ever reached the parties for whose bent tf it
they had been intended. The lady by whom the
dowment had been made had written a letter ts) ,th
Lord Chancellor complaining of the great hardship 0
the case, but to that letter she had never received AU)
answer.
Mr. J. STUART said he would remind the Gall WI!
Officer opposite that no such suit asthat which he had sta tet•
could ever have boon instituted, without the sanction DI
the Attorney-General, so that if it was one that out tilt
never to have been allowed to have commenced, it v. ele

the Attorney-General and not the Lord Chancellor w ho
was blameable in the matter. He would further info, la
the Hem and Gallant Officer that if the suit was mat ti•
featly a vexatious and improper one, it was the party
whom it had been brought, and not the luuds of tl to
charity, that would have to bear the expenses of it.
Mr. MACKINNON said that as he was one of tl'te
trustees in that case he hoped he might be allowed to si
a few words with respect to it. He did not blame tl to
Attorney-General or the Lord Chancellor for the coun ie
which the matter had taken; but he attributed the clan 10
to our absurd Chancery system, which enabled any pe,
son who might please to come before the court andi
file a Bill, upon which no final decision might be given
for many years. In the present case an attorney halt
thought proper to dispute the validity of the endowment;
in the name of a pauper who bad not the slightest in--
terest in the matter, and it seemed that it was at
common practice with certain attorneys to hunt shoat;
the country for eases against charities, which cases;
were got up in the name of persons possessed of no proa.
perty whatever. The attorneys calculated on receiving'
their costs out of the funds, and he was informed that
the attorney in the present case realised in that way ail;
much as 8001. a year. But while the suit was going on
many of the ladies for whom the endowment had been
intended were reduced to grt at distress, and bad made in
vain frequent and earnest applications to the trustees of
the charity. He lett the House to decide whether any
system more monstrous than that could ever enter the
imagination of man.—(ilear.) •
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he had
nothing to answer for with respect to that transaction,
because the suit had been instituted long before his ac-
cession to the office which he had the honour to hold.
He knew nothing of the facts of that case, and he could
therefore say nothing about them. But he should ob-
serve that great abuses had been removed in the
administration of charities through the instrumentality
of private individuals, who had come forward to expose
those abuses. He should also, however, admit that in-
dividuals had done great mischief by instituting unne-
cessary snits, with a hope that they would get their
costs out of the funds of charitable foundations. He
had always, during the period he had held his present
office, endeavoured to check that evil by exercising his
discretion for the prevention of any suits which he might
think, on inquiry, ought not to be instituted. In the
present instance he should say that the Lord Chancellor
had acted very properly in not answering a private letter
with respect to a case which was under his considers..
don in his judicial capacity; but if, instead of addressing
the Lord Chancellor, the lady in question had memo-
rialised him (the Attorney-General), he should have
taken the liberty of stopping the suit immediately, if he
should have found that it was an oppressive and une
reasonable one.
Mr. E. ELLICE said he wished to take that opportu-
nity of expressing a hope that his Right Hon. Friend
the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham), and the Hon.
Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), would take their
Lull shale in the deliberations of the commission for in.
quiring into the state of the Court of Chancery, for he
believed the public had more confidence in his Right
Hon. Friend and in the Hon. Gentleman than in all the
other members of the Commission.
Sir G. STRICKLAND said that the great grievance
of which they complained was the excessive delay, the
excessive expense, and the total denial of justice in cases
which would never come to an appeal. No person but a
madman would go into the Court of Chancery for 4001.
or eOO/., for he would be sure to lose every shilling of
his property, and be an inmate of the workhouse for the
remainder of his life.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government had done him the honour of recom-
mending that he should be added to the Commission.
Although his attendance could not be constant, and his
legal knowledge was most inadequate to grapple with
such a subject, nevertheless, it the Noble Lord thought
that he could render any service to the cause, he was
willing to place his services at his disposal.—(Hear.
hear.) He must say he believed that this Bill was a very
great improvement upon the former one. At the same
time his impression was strong that they were beginning
their amendments at the top instead of at the bottorn•
They had glanced the other day at the way business was
conducted in the Masters' office. No person here was pre-
pared to defend that system. They did not, however,
glance et the Examiners' office. He did not believe
that there was any civilised country in which these
abuses would have been permietsd to exist fur so long a
period. Atter their experience of te enty years he
thought that the prediction uttered by Sir S. Romilly in
respect to the appointment of Vice-Chancellors still held
good. That eminent individual said that the appoint-
ment of subordinate assi.tants to the Lord Chancellor
would be attended with fatal consequences, that the cha-
racter of the office would be degraded, end never again
would England see such names as Somers, Camden, and
Hardwick holding the Great Seal. He (Sir J. Graham)
believed that the office of Lord Chancellor would hence-
forth be primarily political, and secondarily judicial;
whereas it should be vice versa.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought that there was infinite danger of such a conse-
quence from their present legislation. He was, how-
ever, quite aware of the many difficulties that stood in
the way of any effectual amendment in the law. The
office was overloaded already with business from circum-
stances which actually created a large arrear; but he was
of opinion there could still be found a man pre-eminent
in his profession, enjoying health and strength for,
vigorous discharge of the duties—still competent to
perform all the duties connected with the office of
Lord Chancellor.—(flear,- bear.) Such an eminent
individual had been bound in recent times, and be could
not but think that a greater misfortune could not fall
upon the country than for the Government to be placed
in a situation of being unable to procure the ablest legal
assistance, but were compelled to place men of second-
rate ability in the office of Lord Chancellor.—(Hear,
hear.) He was aware of the great difficulty of passing
an efficient measure for a reform of the present system,
and yet avoiding the danger to which he had jest re-
ferred. He could not say that he was opposed to the
present Bill, but he thought it his duty to state frankly
to the Committee the apprehension which he entertained
respecting it. He believed that these appellate tribunals
would be found effibient, and would exercise their func-
tions to the satisfaction of the public. They would be
particularly important in respect to their colonies. The
arrear would soon be reduced by them, and their effect
would. be to diminish the number of appeals. When
this arrear was reduced then he thought there would
not be sufficient work for these tribunals as well as the
Lord Chancellor, and then the danger was inevitable of
reducing the standard of the men who were really
competent to fill the office of Lord Chancellor. Th ey
knew that by reducing the standard of such men,
the efforts of men to raise themselves to that would
be considerably diminished. Now; it would be a
great calamity if the Bill unintentionally produced that
effect. He was not disposed to offer any objections to
the further progress of this Bill; but entertaining
doubts as to its results, he thought it his duty frankly
to express them. He would give every assistance in
his power to further the reform of the Court of Chan-
cery, and as he had before observed, his services were at
the disposal of the Noble Lord. Nothing, however,
would induce him to serve on the Commission if be
had not the most unbounded confidence in the other
members of it, who were gentlemen of the greatest
learning, reputation, and the highest rank—gained by
fair and honourable competition in their professions.
He esteemed it a high honour to be asked to serve upon
a commision composed of such men.— (Hear.)
Mr. AG LIONBY thought there was a great improve-
ment of late years in the mode in which the business was
disposed of in the Master's offices. He hoped the pre-
sent measure would prove effectual for its object.
Mr. HENLEY concurred in the observations that
had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Ripon, and thanked the Noble Lord for the honour
he had done him by appointing him a member of the
commission, composed as it was of men of such great
eminence end ability. He wished to ask the Hon. and
Learned Solicitor-General whether it was intended to
confer upon those judges any original jurisdiction. If
they were to hey° this as well as an appellate jurisdic-
tion the effect would be to make them a second Court of
Chancery, and then the tendency would be to make the
office of Lord Chancellor a political one without; those
high judicial functions and abilities that it was so neoes,
eery he should possess.