The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-11 00:00:00

they would be found, ultimately at all events, to labour
willingly and sedulously. He had no apprehensions in '
his own mind but that the measure would be fraught with
many advantages; and that it would, above all, avoid that
ruin and destruction of which so many asserted it would
be productive.
Mr. RONAYNE said the object of the present reso-
lution was to coerce the negroes into a mongrel state of
existence.
Mr. MACAULAY said he should vote for the resolu-
tion as it now stood.—(Hear, bear.) The question was
still left open as to the term of apprenticeship. The Hon.
Member for Weymouth had himself, a few days ago, pro-
posed a resolution which was identically the same—that
all slaves should be liberated at a future time, not to ex-
tend beyond one year. Between the resolution he alluded
to and the one then before them, there was not the slight-
est contradiction. He must vote against the Hen. Member
for Weymouth's amendment; for be could not answer to
his conscience if he supported it.
Mr. F. BUXTON moved, as an amendment, that the
words "to labour for wages" should be inserted. A change
of that nature he considered to be of the utmost importance
to the tranquillity of the colonies.
Mr. Secretary STANLEY observed that no Member,
by agreeing to the resolution as it stood, at all bound him-
self to time. The wish of the Government was to fix
an extreme limit beyond which the Colonial Legislatures
could not pass, but short of which they might atop in any
case, where they happened to be so disposed. In every
case where there was labour performed, and wages paid
far that labour, his object was, that that labour should be
voluntary, and that, as to the extent of that labour, the
labourer should be perfectly free. The plan proposed by
him was, that a certain quantity of labour should be given
to the master by the apprenticed negro. in consideration
of his being provided by that master with food, clothing,
medicine, and a habitation. To treat that as labouring
for wages would be obviously inconsistent with the plan
which had already been propounded to the House, and he
could not be brought to give his consent to any such
amendmen..
Lord HOWICK said it was quite plain that Govern-
ment could not agree to the proposition of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Weymouth, consistently with the plan which bad
been developed to the House. He was glad to find that
his Right Hon. Friend who spoke last had clearly shown
the difference between the proposition of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Weymouth and the plan of his Majesty's Minis cry,
than which no two things could be more dissimilar. No •
thing could be more obvious than that the plan of the
Government was a modified continuance of slavery. He
was anxious to impress this particularly on the House,
that they were then called upon to vote whether they
would or would not keep the negroes three parts slaves ;
fur compulsory labour, in consideration of food, clothing,
and !edging, amounted to nothing more nor less than
slavery.
Lord ALTHORP said he could not be a party to sla-
very, though he had no objection to being a party to ap-
prenticeship.
Mr. HERRIES said he had the utmost difficulty in
giving a vote upon the present question—(A laugh).—
listening, as he had done, to the conflicting statements
of the promoters of the measure on the one hand, and
those of the Nable Lord on the other; who, having been
in the Colonial Department, became a high authority on
the subject.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it was partial slavery disguised
under the name of apprenticeships. It was an enormous
practical blunder to suppose that the proposed apprentices,
under that arrangement, could be anything else than slaves.
—(Cries of " Oh.") The question simply resolved itself
into one of freedom or slavery.
After some 'tribal amendments in the resolution bad
been agreed to, and that the main question was about to
be put,
Mr. F. BUXTON said, as any such alterations as he
contemplated could be proposed in Committee, he should
not trouble the House by opposing his Majesty's Govern-
ment on the present resolution.
It was understood that either Mr. O'CoNsfEat. or Mr.
FIALCOMB resisted the withdrawal of the amendment, hut,
from the confusion which prevailed from the approach o
the division, it was impossible to ascertain which.
The House then divided—
For the original motion
Against it
Majority
On our re-admission, we found
Mr. STANLEY, moving the fourth resolution, which
provided for the just and equitable compensation which it
became nei essay to make to those whose property would
he injured by the proposed measure. The House was
bound, and be was sure the country would willingly make
that compensation. He took fur granted that every Mem-
ber of that House would agree with him, that in dealing
with a question of that description, they were called upon
to make compensation for the loss of that which had been
times out of number recognised as property, which had
been made the subject of purchase and of sale, which had
been made the subject of family sett.ernents, anti which,
more perhaps than any other species of properly, had been
mortgaged and encumbered. He could not think that in
dealing with property of that nature, the House could do
otherwise than deal with it as they would with any other
description of property ; and that further, they would not
leave the compensation to be settled at some remo.e and in-
definite period—they would, with their usual liberality and
regard to justice, not leave it to some subsequent time, but
deal with it at once. By the proposed measure, they took
away from the slave proprietor one-fourth of his property in
the slave at once ; they then charged the proprietors with
the maintenance of the slave for a limited period, and at the
expiration of that the present owners would lose all pro-
perty in the negroes. He could not suppose for a mo-
ment that the House would refuse its assent to the propo-
sition with which he intended to conclude, when they
recollected the immense number of very helpless persons
who were interested in West India property, and when
they recollected the very small degree in which, speaking
numerically, they were represented in that House. It
was pet fectly true that they might upon paper emancipate
the slave ; but it was equally true that they could not
secure that cordial concurrence and co-operation which
was essential to the success of the measure, if they dealt
wish the West India proprietors in an illiberal or nig-
gardly manner. If lie knew anything of the people of
this country, he was sure that, with an object like the
present in view, they would not stop to inquire whether
they ought to pay more or less money, but would ghdly
th,n,ant to make some sacrifice to gain their ob-
ject, to attain their end, and to do it in the best possible
manner, by procuring the cordial co-operation of those
whose assistance those that desired the measure to be fully
effectual, must be desirous to obtain. He had made a
calculation with reference not only to the value of human
lif , but also with regard to the amount of the property
they were now about to withdraw from the West Indians,
by taking away from the masters the services of the slaves,
and calculating the slaves at 401. a head, or taking 30
millions for the whole of their present value, he could not
bring the amount of that which they were about to take
from the West Indians to a lower sum than 15 millions.
In the calculation of that sum, he had admitted (or the
detriment in the value a the slaves in the course of twelve
years, and for the loss which the toasters sustained from
the probable advantage of the men who might be born in
a state of slavery. But even taking that in the most un-
favourable point of view, he could not reduce it to a lower
amount than 15 millions. But in a question of this kind.
they weir bound not only to look to the question of va'ne,
but at that of the risk to be encountered. They were
bound, in measuring the amount of compensation, to take
such a view of the matter as would be most likely to p e-
vent those scenes which would entail, if they unfortunately
happened, a tenfold greater expense than could now be
avoided.—(Hear.) He thought it best to deal freely and
frankly with the House, and to s are to them and to the
public that which he confessed had weighed with his inind„
and that which had weighed with the Government, in
proposing the grant of a larger sum than that of 15 mil-
lions ; and that ground was, that every one connected

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with West India property, without any exception what.

_ .
ever, stated th.tt the sum of fifteen million,' would be
inaiiequa,e to the lons they must suffer, and that if that

sum alone was granted, they should feel bound to abstain
from giving their concurrence or assistance in carrying
on those mercantile transactions on which the very exist-
ence of the West India colonies depended. On the
other hand the West India body bad given their assurance
that if th s country, in consideration of the property in-
volved, of the object in view, of the sacrifice that mast be

made to attain it, would consent to vote to the proprietors
....... ....

a sum of 20 millions, that great interest, VVl;oseimpor-
tance every one mu,t acknowledge, would lend their full

concurrence and cordial co-operation, not only here but in
the West Indies. It was better to affect no disguise on

such a subject. He stated, therefore, his opinion, that
15 millions would be inadequate to the lo•e that would be

sustained ; at the same time he was ready to admit, that
20 millions might be more than adequice to that loss.
But then the result would infinitely more than counter-
balance the disadvantage of the increase on the sum, for
the measure would be mere likely, when supported by the
cordial co•operation of the planters, to be safely t-ff ctual.
He hoped, therefore, for the concurrence of the Members
o: the House with the proposition he had just made; and
he trusted that that proposition would equally meet with
the support and approbition of those of tovir coto,tit,Artitl,
who were really anxious to tffict the anancipstion of the

slaves safely. The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved,
that his Majesty be empowered to grant a sum not ex-
ceeding 20 millions to the West India p'anters, to be ap-
propriated as Parliament should determine.
Colonel DAVIES thought it was too late an hour for a
question of such magnitude to be discussed.—(Cries of
" Adjourn," "Go on.") He felt as much as any one the
hardship upon the West India planters, but at the same
time be must recollect the people of this country.—(Hear,
hear.) He must remember the burdens which they were
weighed down with—be must recollect the manifestations
of distress now unhappily too prevalent. Were they not
only to refuse any remission of taxes, but even to lay fresh
burdens upon the shoulders of the people ? He must say,
that he thought the system now proposed was the most
judged that could have been brought before the House. The
twenty millions now asked for would not relieve the dis-
tresses of the West India interest. They might as well be
thrown into the sea. He should not now go into the
question, but he was convinced that some other means
must be taken to relieve them. He therefore gave notice,
that at the proper period he should move, " That it be an
instruction to the Committee to reduce the Duties on
Sugar to 17e. per cwt."—(Hear, hear.) That would be
a real advantage to the coloniats, by increasing the con.
gumption of sugar—(Hear)—and at the tame time it
would be a benefit to the people of this country, by giving
them at a cheaper rate an article of necessary consurnp-
tion.—(Hear.) He should certainly, if the Right Hon.
Gentleman now pressed his motion, take the sense of the
House upon it, especially as it was coupled with a pro.
posed increase of the duty on sugar, which he thought
would be as disadvantageous to the colonists as it would
be vexatious to the people of this country.
Mr. J. SMITH, amidst opposing cries of "Adjourn," and
"Go on," said that no man in that House had taken a
deeper interest in the present question than he bad done.
He had been in business as a merchant in this city for the
last forty years, and he had had an opportunity of observing
and judging of the extent and importance of the West
India trade, and of its effects on sur manufactures and
commerce, and he must own that he had never felt half
the anxiety on any question that he had felt on this. He
was, and always had been an enemy to slavery in all forms
—mental or personal ; but he could not vote for the abo-
lition of slavery in the West Indies, if its abolition were
to be coupled with the commission of an injustice. It
would be unjust and base to liberate the slave with one
hand, and with the other to condemn his friends and ac-
quaintances to poverty, destitution, and misery.—(Hear,
hear.) In this country there were many whose children
hail no means of acquiring education but in parish schools,
and he himself had known a most amiable and virtuous
lady reduced to utter distress. He could not condemn his
fellow-subjects to this misery. He should therefore most
readily vote in favour of the proposition of the Right
Hon. Gentleman. He should do this—not only for the
reason he had just stated, but also because it was abso-
lutely necessary to have the assistance of the West Indians,
in order to insure the success of the scheme. A failure in
it would shake the 'national credit by endangering the
existence arid safety of the colonies. Under these circum-
stances, he thought they ought not to stop for a few mil-
lions. They had been told that there was great and uni-
versal distress in the country. He must say, though he
knew it would expose him to obloquy, that he did not be-
lieve one word of it. Distress, of course, there must and
would be in a country like this ; but still it was not ge-
neral nor universal ; and he believed that the coun ry
would consent, in order to see the emancipation of the
slaves safely effected, to pay the sum proposed by the Right
Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. GISBORNE must say that he did not think it fur
in the Right Hon. Gentleman to call on the House to
come to a vote on this question now. The House had no
means of judging of the question now. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had three times changed his course. At first
he proposed to lend the West Indians fifteen millions. He
(Mr. Gishorne) must say that he thought it a pretty
strong step when the Right Hon. Gentleman came down
and changed that proposition, and said, I do not mean to
lend, but absolutely to give the fifteen millions—(Hear,
hear)—but now, this night, without the slightest prepara-
tion, he chang d again, and proposed to make the gift,
not fifteen merely, hut twenty millions—(Hear, hear)—
for such, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, is what I now
discover to be the right amount of compensation. He
(Mr. oi-borne) had always been in favour of a fair coats
pensation to the West Indians—the people of this country
were so, but the amount of that comp. n-ation could not
he agreed to in that hasty way. The question ought not
to he press, d on to-night, the more so, as, if the House
now voted this resolutien for the maximum, they would,
in fact, pledge themselves to that amount.—(Hear.)
Mt. STANLEY, under these circumstance., consented
not to press the question to a oivision now.—(Hear, hear.)
He wished to min, that whatever might be the amount of
compensation, the money would not be p lid till the details
of the measure had been carried into effect by the Colo-
nial Legislatures.
The fleuse resumed.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the Bank question
was postponed to Fri,tay.
STAMP DUTIES.
In answer to a qua stir n Irian Mr. HUME,
Mr. S. RICE stated, that the present advertisement
duty would erase in the next quarter.
Mr. HUME then expressed his wish that the law should
be so altered that a pa, er putting forth a second edition,
should nor, if it had one or two fresh advertisements in
that edition, pay a duty as if all the advertisements were
fresh advertisements, or the paper a chff rent day's paper.
Such, he believed, now was the case.
Mr. S. RICE was not aware of the fact, and said that
the question had better be deferred till the report was
brought up.
On the clause respecting the repeal of the stamps on
the policies of insurances of farming stock and agricul-
tural produce being put,
Mr. HUME said that he thought the benefits of the
clause ought to be extended to all other property as wel
as agricultural ; but this was only another instance o
the partiality of the Legislature towards the landed in.
terests.—(oh, nit.)
Lord ALTHORP s tid that the reduction of duty about
to be made, aid not bear out the accusation of the Hon.
Member. The reason why the stamps on such policies of
insurance was taken off was, because agricultural pro•
duce been lately so much exposed to the fires of incen-
diaries.

The clause was then passed.
On the clause respecting the reduction on policies of
marine insurance being put,
Mr. F. YOUNG objected to the clause, saying it would
only benefit the insurances at Lloyd's, and would not ex-
tend to his constituents of the North. The whole amount
of this duty was 260,0001. The Noble Lord proposed
taking off 100,000/. ; it would be better to reduce it by
one half, for then the benefit would be more generally
felt. The revenue would not suffer by his suggestion, as
the policies would increase in proportion to the reduction
of duty.
Mr. SPRING RICE and Lord ALTIIORP defended the
clause as it then stood.

Mr. Lim, Mr. ROBINSON, and another Hon. Member
favoured the suggestion of Mr. F. Young.
Mr. S. RlCE—They could not afford to take off so
much of the duty, but what they took off would tend to
prevent foreign competition on the matter.
Mr. PEASE said, that many of his constituents were
waiting for the result of the present measure, to see
whether they ought not to establish an insurance agency
in the United States of America.
Mr. P. THOMSON thought it very strange that this
sgency was not established before, and that the Hon. Gen-
tleman's constituents shoul,l think of establishing it only at
the moment when ne,rly one half of this duty was about
to be taken I.ff. He said there were so fumy advantages
in insuring in this country, that although the duty was
higher than abroad, still merchants would prefer those
solid advantages to the alight economy gained by the lower
duty abroad.

Mr. LYALL wished, as we understood, that the duty
should be reduced, in order to induce foreign merchants

tO Inure in this country.

The clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
Mr. S. RICE moved that a clause should be inserted to
take off the duty on pamphlets. This duty was very small
in its amount, but very grievous to publishers. He would,
further, propose that a copy of each pamphlet be deposited
in the Stamp office, as a security for the number of adver-
tisements attached to it.

Mr. JERVIS asked if it were necessary to deposit the
whole work. Under the present system, parties were
hound to give 14 copies of each new work, which was
found to be a great hardship, and in many expensive
works absorbed the whale of the profits. If an additional

copy was required, the hardship would be still more felt.
Lunt ALTHORP said that the present clause did not
apply to expensive works.
Alter a few words from Mr. SPRING RICE, the
clause was agreed to.
The House then resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported
progress, and the report was ordered to be brought up to-
morrow (this day).
CATHOLIC MARRIAGES.
Lord AIOLYNEUX moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to put Citholic marriages on the same footing with the
marriages of Protestants, Jews, Quakers, and other Dia-
. .
9, titers.

Ttie Registr,tion 13111,.iutrodueed by his Friend

the Methl:er for Iluitou, although it would paidy do away