The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-07 00:00:00

LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 7, 1833.

Select Committee, to consider the general state of
parochial registries in England and Wales, and of the
laws relating thereto ; and for certain accounts of birth.,
marri ,ges, and deaths. On March 12, he should move for
leave to bring in a Bill to exempt from poor rates all
churches, chapels, and other places exclusively appropriated
to religion.

Mr. FINCH wished to ask a question of the Npble
Lord opposite—whether or not his Majesty's Government
intended to bring forward any measure for the suppression
of Political Unions.

Lord ALTHORP said it was not his intention to bring
forward any such measure.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. GROTE moved for certain returns of silk im •
pore l from January, 1832, to January, 1833.
Lord ALTHORP did not object to the returns.

Mr. MACKENZIE presented a petition from the
parish of Kilceugh, in the county of Perth, relative to
the better observance of the Sabbath.
The SPEAKER intimated that the present was the
time to receive all election petitions. The Right Hon.
Gentleman read the usual order applicable to the mode of
receiving those petitions. After which,
The CHIEV CLEM,: called out the name of each peti-
tion ; those against the returns for the borough of
Petersfield, the city of Oxford, the borough of Coleraine,
the borough of StiSford, and the city of Bath, were
o dered to he taken into consideration on Tuesday fort-
night ; those against the returns for the boroughs of
Tivrrtoa and Carnarvon were ordered to be considered
on Thursday fortnight.

should he petitioned on these subjects, my answer tva•
that before the King's speech was delivered and th,
explanation of Ministers received, it would not I.
right to embarrass the Government. But if tl:e No
Lord opposite thinks that because the people have been
quiescent, because they have not been clamorous P r
relief, it is owing enti•ely to their indifference, h.
will find he is much mistaken, and that their silence
only arose from the confidence in tho•e Ministers who had
done so much for Reform that they would he anxious ti
follow up th t great measure with other measure,
for practicil relief. Without these what is Reform
I hope, therefore. that Ministers do intend to justify
this conduct, which the people have reposed in
them. The Noble Lord opposite cannot he ignorant, flu•
requent deputations have waited on him, of the forling in

(LEFT SPEAKTNG.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.

The House sat to-day at half-past 3 o'clock. Prayer
were read by the Bishop of Hereford, shortly after which
their Lordships adjourned during pleasure.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, on taking his seat on
the Woolsack, at 5 clock, informed their Lordships,
that the House had waited on his Majesty, according
to his Royal permission, yesterday, at two o'clock. for
purpose of presenting the address, to which hi•
Majesty had returned the following most gracious answer :
—'' Sly Lords, I thank you for your loyal and dutiful
address. I receive with peculiar satisfaction your deter.
initiation to support me by all means in your po,s•er in
my determination to preserve the Legislative Union of
Ireland with this country as indissolubly connected with
the peace, security, and welfare of my dominions."

On the motion of the Earl of SiIAFTESBURY the
address was ordered to be printed.
Lord TEYNHANI gave notice of his intention to move
on Monday next for a copy of the proclamation of the
Lords Justices of Ireland, during the time the county of
Mayo was in a state of rebellion, and requiring additional
force.

The Duke of LEINSTER presenter] a petition from
Kildare, against tithes.

The Bishop of BATH and WELLS presen'ed a peti-
tion from those two cities, against that provision of the
Beer Bill which allowed beer to be drank upon the pre-
mi.es.

Lord KING, seeing several of the Right Reverend Pre-
lates in their places, would take that opportunity of
moving for some information respecting particular parts
of the revenue of the Church.—(Hear.) He (Lord King)
was glad to bear that it was the intention of his
Majesty's Government to bring forward some measure of
Church Reform, as he was convinced that Ministers and
Ministers only could make such a reform effectual. From
the herds of the church it was ridiculous to suppose i
could be derived, as, from the Reformation to the
present time, they had been the means of protecting
many of those abuses, the correction of which would have
taken place but for the course they had pursued. The
abuses on which he particularly wished to have
information, were those connected with the high function-
aries and dignitaries of the Church—those cooling more
immediately under the cogniz ince of the Bishops ; he
alluded to that portion of the revenues of the Church
enjoyed by the Deans, Chapters, and even Bishops, where
they held livings annexed to their Sees. Those great
personages abs-racted a large portion of the re-
venues of the Church, while the pittance that was given
to the ministers who did the whole of the duty, was
scandalous in the extreme. In his (Lord King's) opinion,
the first reform that should take place in the Church, was
the more equal distribution of its income.—(Hear, hear.)
What information he wanted was, the amount of the
salaries or stipends which were given to the officiating
ministers, where the income of the Church was enjoyed
by these great ecclesiastics. For the purpose of in-
stancing the necessity of the information he required,
he would state to their Lordships how many of the
working clergy in different parts of the country were
pail for their labours. In a parish in Devonshire,
the church of which belonged to the See of
Exeter with an income of more than fifteen hundred a-
year, the officiating clergyman was only paid 601. At
Swainbridge, in Devon, the income of the parish church
of which belonged to the Dean of Exeter, the officiating
clergyman was only paid 401. In a parish belonging to
the canons of Windsor, the clergyman was only paid 60/.
a year, and at South Molt in the salary had been increased
from 60/. to 80/. a year. At Preston, in Holderness,
to the living of which was attached land to the value of
upwards of 1,4001. a year, the income of which belonged
to the Dean of York, the officiating minister was
allowed for his services, some paltry tithes hardly worth
collecting, amounting to about 60/. a year. In a parish in
Oxfordshire, the income of which amounted to upwards of
2,0001. a year, the minister was given only 301. a year,
which was made up by the inhabitants to 70/. He
(Lord King) was glad that the King's speech had
told them that there was to be a more equitable distri-
bution of the revenues of the Church. He trusted that in
that distribution, pluralities would be put an end to; and
that ecclesiastical persons would be compelled to perform
their ecclesiastical duties properly. The Reforms that
had hitherto taken place in the revenues of
the Church, if Reforms they could be called,
were at the expense of the people, the immense incomes
of its dignitaries still being enjoyed by them, the officiat-
ing clergymen being paid out of the pockets of their
parishioners. He (Lord King), however, trusted the
time was not far distant, when these persons would be
obliged to disgorge part of the immense revenues which
they enjoyed from the Church.—( Hear, hear.) An-
other Bill was brought forward after Sir W. Scott's,
which was equally delusive, and fell to the ground still-
born—a perfect abortion. With regard to the overgrown
See of Derry, Government the year before last resolved,upon
the vacancy of that See occurring, to limit the immense in-
come, but the clergy objected ; and that S-e would yet be
found to be the East Retford of the Church. The Noble
Lord was happy to find, however, that it was now admitted
by the Bishops themselves, that the collection of tithes
was productive of much animosity between the Ciergy and
the Laity. He then gave notice that he should move for
certain returns of Church Benefices throughout England
and Wales.

The Bishop of LONDON said, that although the
attacks which the Noble Lord was in the habit of making
on his Bench, could not be agreeable to any one, yet he
was glad that he had ths:s early broken ground, because it
afforded an opportunity of giving some contradiction
to the statements he was in the habit of dealing in ; for in-
stance, the Noble Lord was pleased to ask in a taunting
manner which of the prelates had returned an answer to
the communications made to them by the Commissioners
of the real property? Fur his own part he hail lost no time in
answering to every proposition submitted to him, and he be-
lieved that other Reverend Bishops had acted similarly, and
it was a hasty conclusion to draw, that because the Com-
missioners had not embodied any suggestion in their
report, either made by the Bishops, or as proceeding from
themselves upon the subject, therefore no answers had been
sent. The Noble Lord had said there had been no incli-
natieu to improve small benefices—nor had that been agreed
mat all except by Government. He could furnish the Noble
Lord with a long list of the ecclesiastical persons, some
of whom were in the receipt of great tithes, and others
not, who had greatly increas, d small benefices.—
(Hear, hear.) He was at the same time free to
acknowledge that so much had not been done in this
respect as the country had a right to expect. During
a considerable period, the puliiic attention had been much
taken up by other subjects, and it was not until the last
few years that an impetus had been given
to the Church at all equal to the necessity of the times.
That there were imperfections—that there were ble-
mishes, he was ready to admit ; but with respect
to the present rules of the Caurch, Gn the present
ministers of the church, they did not deserve to be
called abuses ; but on the contrary, those abuses had
been for many years past greatly diminishing. There
was not a single abuse—there was not a single
imperfection which marred the duty of the Church,
and there was not a single abuse which was not likely to
Ise removed, and which was nor under gradual improve-
ment, and, therefore, he thought it too mach than it
should he said to their Lordships that the abuses
of the Church were growing evils—they were growing
less and lea., and would very soon be diminished alto-
gether. A Bill had been brought into Parliament two
years ago, enabling Bishops to augment benefices. It the
N dile Lord would take the trouble of looking at that Act,
he would find that many poor benefices bad been over-
rated, and that they were continuing to be so at this mo-
ment. The Bishops had not been backward iu availing
themselves of the facilities afforded them by that Act. He

(PRICE 7D.)

might mention as instan,es the Dean and Chapter of
Durham, the D an and Chapter of Westminster, the
Dean and Chapter of Windsor, knd tnuty others
which it was not necessary to trouble their Lord-
.,hips with, had all been availing themselves of the
benefits vested in them by that Act. With respect to
pluralities, tke Noble Lord appeared to think, that because
a Bilrwas not brought in at once for the purpo e of dimi
nishing them, that therefore there was no disposition o❑
the part of the Bishops to diminish the number of their
pluralities. Now it had been stated again and again that
if the Bill introduced by the most Noble Prelate had
been passed into a law, it would speedily have the effect of
diminishing them one half. He (the Right Rev. Prelate)
took this at least as a disposition to improve ;
and if they were not at all tittles ready and willing to
rush headlong into every reformation which was proposed
by this person or that, they were not therefore to
he charged with an indisposition to remove grievances.—
(Hear.) With respect to a p articular branch of the
Church in Ireland, the Bishopric of Derry, he (the Right
Rev. Prelate) was sure, and he was persu ultd that if it
sheuld seem fit for any of his Majesty's Ministers to state
the case, it would he a lesson to the Noble Loid not to
teke for granted remaks or observations from per-
sons who were indisposed to the Church establishment
But to see the necessity of making some inqui y into the
foundation of these remarks, before he came forward in
that House. and talk in such a way which was likely to
excite iii feelings against the Church more than they were
at present excited. With respect to the augmentation
of poor benefices, he was prepared to go so far as to say
that was a blot on the Established Church. and a blot
wbich, he trusted, they would soon be able to diminish
and alleviate, if not entirely remove.—(Hear, hear.)
There was no doubt that one of the greatest
blessing desired in this e.untry was to increase the com-
fort, the respectability, and efficacy of the poor clergy ; hut
that could only be done by measures which were not incon
sistent with the safety of the Church. By raising their inferior
condition of the clergy, there was great danger of their
weakening the efficiency of both ; and, therefore, al-
though some changes, and some important changes,
in the Church as established were necessary, yet
he (the Right Reverend Prelate) had the fullest
confidence in his Majesty's Ministers that they would
not propose any change that would not be incom-
patible with the essential interests of the Church.
He felt confident that any measures which his Majesty's
Government had in contemplation were not ligely to be
removed in consequence of such observations as the Noble
Lord had thougut proper
.throw out.—(Hear, hear,)
The Right Reverend Prelate, as far as the Bench of Bishops
was concerned, the Noble Lord had no right to impute
(LEFT SdEAKING.)

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 6.

(Continued from our Second Edition of lalit night.)
Mr. HUME suggested that the motion had better be de-
ferred till it was known what arrangements were to be made
upon the subject, in which suggestion Sir Andrew Agnew ac-
quiesced.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had to present a petition,
numerously signed, from Dudley, praying the House to re
peal the Speaker's Pension Act.
Mr. 'WARBURTON had been requested to support the
prayer of the petition, apparently under the notion that lie
had a Bill prepared upon the subject. At present he only
begged it to be understood that he had no such Bill prepared.
The petition was then laid upon the table.

Mr. ROBINSON moved for a return of the number of yes.
gels which had pas6ed the Sound within a certain period.—Or.
dered.

Mr. DIVETT gave notice that on Friday he should move for
a return of the names and number of the municipal officers in
the different Corporations in England and Wales, and the
charters under which they held their privileges.
Mr. HUME moved for returns of the names and rank, and
length of service, of every person in the diplomatic employ of
his Majesty, and accounts of other matters, of which he had
given notice last session.
Lord ALTHORP then rose, but

Mr.O'CONNELL, interrupting him, said, he wished to ask a
question which related to the army, to that portion of it which
was stationed in the Indies. Complaints had reached him,
which left no doubt upon his mind that that portion of the
army was left without ally of the comforts of their religion, that
which he knew of no greater deprivation. He wished to ask
the Hon. Secretary at War whether there was any intention of
applying a remedy for this grievance.
Sir JOHN HOBIIO USE considered the matter complained of
as a grievance, and was of opinion that some provision ought to
be made for it. At present the Secretary at War acted under
a minute of the Treasury, which took away all power from
him. In the meantime all he could say on the subject was, that
it would receive his best attention.