The Sun.
London, England, 1834-04-22 00:00:00

MUSIC HALL, BEDFORD-SQUARE.

A second concert was given by La Societe del Concordia,
at the Music Hall, Store-street, Bedford-square, on Fri-
day last, of which we availed ourselves, and spent a very
pleasant evening. Several
.performers of first-rate talent
delighted us much; among whom were Signors Ivanoff
and Tamburini : of' the excellence of the latter we make
no mention—his abilities are too well known to require any
comment ; suffice to say he was in excellent voice. M.
Ivanoff pleased us here much more than at the Opera. We
consider his voice better adapted to a concert-room : he
received great applause in the duet, " Non Fuggir," from
" Guillaume Tell," with Tamburini ; and was rapturously
encored in the aria " Che Accenti !" which he delightfully
sang. Tamburini also sang a duet, by Rossini, with Miss
Lansa, who performed her part with infinite credit. Miss
F. Healy sang three songs, for which she received great
and merited applause. In the course of the evening we
had some beautiful instrumental solos ; among which Han-
del's splendid air, " See the Conquering Hero," was played
with variations on the grand piano forte by Mr, J. Cohan,
by whom the fantasia is conlposed. His playing was very
fine ; but what attracted our attention most was the intro-
duction of some peculiarly brilliant effects quite new to us,
'which, with other parts of the composition, although ex-
cessively difficult, he executed with apparent ease. Mr.
G. Cooke played a fantasia on the oboe, and Mon. Keny
a solo on the violin, which we cannot too highly commend.
The room was well filled ; and, to judge from the two
concerts that have taken place, we can have no doubt that
they will meet with success.

An inquest was held on Tuesday morning,
the 15th, in the vestry-room of St. Mary's church,
Dover, on the body of Mrs. Russell, a widow lady,
about seventy years of age, who was found suspended
from one of the hat-pegs against the wall, in the cor-
ner of the gallery, on the left of the eastern entrance
to the church. The deceased, for the last four or five
months, had been boarding at a most respectable
school establishment in the town, and about 11 o'clock
on Monday she left her home for the purpose, as was
supposed, of taking her usual walk, but not returning
some anxiety was felt, but particularly so after dark,
when it was deemed proper to have the circumstance
of her being missed cried about the town, with the
offer of a reward for her discovery. It appeared thit
at some former period she had been found in the
church, and was with difficulty persuaded to depart,
and this led to a belief that she might be remaining
there, as she had been observed by some one going
into church between eleven and twelve o'clock. The
wife of the clerk of the parish, and another female, in
company with Mr. Wrightson, proceeded between
nine and ten o'clock to make search in the church,
when they found the unfortunate lady suspended, as
before stated. Her bonnet was on, and her veil over
her face, and it is supposed that she must have stood
upon the seat to affix the tape or riband to the peg by
which she was suspended, and then to have thrown
herself off. She was quite cold when found, and must
have been hanging some time. Verdict—Temporary
Insanity,...Kentish Chronicle,

Myrtle'', APRIL 10.—Baron Von Lerchenfeld,
Minister of Finance, laid before the Chamber of
Deputies, in the sitting of to-day, a project of law
relative to the expense of restoring the fortress of
Ingolstadt. The whole sum required from the com-
mencement to the completion of the work is estimated
at 22,889,836 florins.
FRANKFORT, APRIL 13.—We have recent news from
our emigrants in America. All of them indicate that
the hopes that were entertained have proved fallacious ;
though none of the emigrants will plainly confess that
he has entirely thrown away a happier way of life.
Proud and covetous merchants and speculators inhabit
the towns on the coasts of America and the banks of
the rivers; they are of English origin, and look down
with an eye of contempt on the good-natured German
who seeks only an ideal liberty in a foreign country,
and finds a miserable existence, who is plundered if
he brings money with him, and repulsed if he ap-
pears as a stranger seeking assistance and friendship.
But in the interior of the country, none can subsist but
the man who has a frame hardened against every kind
of privation, who can sleep on straw and dry leaves as
well as on a soft feather-bed, who is willing to ex-
change the elastic sopha for a hard seat on a block of
wood ; in a word, who has courage to fall back from a
life of luxury to the rude state of nature.
BERLIN, APRICI2.—As far as is known, only three
or four of those who took part in the late invasion of
Savoy are now at Paris, of whom two are said to be
Voll and Gelpke ' • the others are still in Switzerland.
Gen. Romarino, however, is said to have arrived at
Paris on the 11th instant, and to live now at Auteuil ;
here he has had his beard taken off to prevent his
being recognised, and from which place, it is said, he
goes to Paris only by night. The motive is said to be
that he has received information at the Prefecture of
the Police, where, as well as at the department of the
interior, he has been several times, and that the refugees,
who imagine that he betrayed them, have designs upon
his life. It is reported that in order to escape
their designs he intends to go to England, which
will be the more easy, as he is said to be
provided with money, and valuable effects in abun-
dance. There may be reasons that recommend him
to indulgence from many quarters. The opposition
papers, though they mention his late pamphlet, do not
say a syllable of his being here. It is entirely false
that other Italian or Polish refugees arrived at Paris
at the same time with him. Frankfort Papers,
April 16.

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.

HATTON-GARDEN.

A middle-aged man, named John Brookland, was
charged with distuthing the congregation, of Islington
Chapel, and assaulting-two of the pewopeners.
It appeared that on Friday evening, during the per-
formance of divine service in the above building, the
defendant entered, exclaiming, " You are all infidels ;
you do not worship God as you ought !" and many
other like sentences, at the same time attempting to
demolish the pews with a bludgeon. The majority of
persons assembled could not see the prisoner, and
being therefore unable to account for such an extraor-
dinary interruption, the greatest consternation pre-
vailed, as it was supposed the roof was giving way or
the place had caught fire, and a rush was made to the
doors, which occasioned a scene that beggars descrip-
tion. The pewopeners, on endeavouring to seize the
defendant, were felled to the ground by him with the
tremendous weapon in his possession, and their cries,
of course, tended to create additional alarm. It was
with great difficulty the prisoner was secured and con-
veyed to the station-house, where he was recognised
as the person who in September last, entered the same
chapel in the evening during prayers and pulled down
the chandelier. When order was restored it was as-
certained that the two men who had been knocked
down by the accused had received very severe injuries,
and a surgeon was sent for, who dressed the cuts on
their heads.—( The plaisters about their heads were
evidences of the severity of the blows.)
_ _ _ .

The defendant, when asked by Mr. LAING if he
wished to say anything, asked, " Who is John the
Baptist ?"
Mr. LAING-Perhaps you can tell us.
Defendant—l will. Lend me the Bible, and I will
show you it is all wrong. The Almighty has chosen
me to prepare the way for his Son, who is coming to
judge the world.
Mr. LAING said it was evident the man was insane,
and detained him in order that he might be sent to a
lunatic asylum.

The defendant, on hearing the Magistrate's deci-
sion, said he should not be in the madhouse long, for
the Son of God would set him free.

LAMBETH-STREET.

Saturday, while the magistrates were sitting with
grave countenances, considering how many special con-
stables should be sworn in and be compelled to make a
holiday on Monday under pretence of keeping the peace,
the silence of the office was broken by sundry loud thumps
upon the floor, which were produced by the timber toe
of a short, fat, heavy, good-natured-looking fellow,
named William Vandersteen, who presented himself
at the bar with a dead fowl in one hand and a placard
in the other.

He was followed by a lean, delicate-looking per-
sonage, who called himself Mr. Stanley (not the Ex-
Secretary for Ireland), and proceeded to lodge a com-
plaint against Vandersteen in a tone of dismal despon-
dency. He stated that, unfortunately for his happi-
ness, he was a neighbour of the defendant, who kept
fowls, and the nasty creatures were continually flying
over his garden and picking up all his mustard and
cress. On Friday morning, about three o'clock, he
saw a hen tearing up his mignionette bed, and deter-
mining to rid himself of the annoyance, he went
down and killed it with a broomstick. About ten
o'clock the wife of the defendant came for it, and im-
mediately afterwards it was hung out of the defendant's
door, which is next but one to his own, in Mile-End-
road, with a placard, which caused a dreadful mob to
assemble about the premises.
The magistrate asked what was the nature of the
placard ? The defendant immediately handed it up to
the Bench. It was as follows :
" April 18th.—This is the hen that the oilman killed
next door but one this morning, for flying over into his
yard. Is it a neighbourly action?
" Ah," exclaimed the complainant, " that is not all.
He put up another this morning, when he discovered
your Worships had granted me a peace-warrant."
Shields, the officer, said he had taken a copy of the
second placard, around which there was a mob of
people laughing at the joke. The following is a copy,
verbatim et literatirn :
,6 This is the hen wot clacked in the morn,
And awakened the oilman before it was dawn ;
In a fright he arose and jumped out of bed,
And beat the poor hen until it was dead.
And there it did lay until ten in the day,
When its mistress went in and fetch'd it away ;
And when she had searched it, to her great surprise,
She found its back broken and bruised likewise.
So, if this you call friendship, pray keep it from me,
For such friendship as this 1 ne'er want to see."
Mr. NORTON said the placard, though improper,
was by no means ill-nature', and, with a promise it
should not be repeated, he should dismiss the case,
dividing the expenses between the parties.
The defendant agreed to restrain his poetical effu-
sions, but thought it very hard he should be put to any
expense after losing his fowl. He then picked up his
hen, saying, " Poor thing, I heard her pray for her
murderer to the very last."

GULLY'S FRANK.—A frank written by the
hon. mumber for Pontefract was the cause of much
amusement among the gentlemen of the long robe at
the.late Nottingham assizes. It was a precious spe-
cimen of caligraphy, and was afterwards handed to the
grand jury. The hon. member, it appears, began his
name with a small g (gully).—Lincolnshire Chronicle.
We regret to learn that a riotous spirit has
shown itself among the workmen employed on the
Hartlepool Docks and Railway, in consequence of
which, we are informed, it was deemed necessary on
Monday week, to send for a troop of cavalry. This
state of things, we understand, arises from a determina-
tion on the part of the English masons and labourers
not to work until the Irishmen, of wham there are a great
number, are paid oft And Tyne Mercury,

Mr. CARTWRIGHT presented a petition from
the farmers and grasiers of the county of Northampton
against the Islington Market Bill ; also a petition from
Cotsgrove, in Northamptonshire, against the Stony
Stratford Bridge Bill.
Lord AL THORP said that before moving the order
of the day for the house to resolve itself into a com-
mittee upon the subject of the church rates, he had
certain petitions to present upon the subject from the
dissenters of Cricklade, Houston, and Grove, in North-
amptonshire, and from Milton, in Essex ; also, .a
petition from the vicar and churchwardens of Thax-
tead, against the separation of church and state.
Mr. FINN said that be and other Irish members
had a great number of petitions to present, for a re-
peal of the union. As he understood it to be the usual
course, he hoped permission would be granted to pre-
sent them to-morrow evening, without making any
speech upon them.
Mr. PETER submitted to the house whether,
having a case of breach of privilege—viz., the inter-
ference of a Peer of the realm with an election, his
(Mr. Peter's) motion ought not to take precedence of
the orders of the day.
The SPEAKER said that there were two questions
before the house, the one whether they should act in
conformity with the rules of the house, this being an
order day, and the other whether they would make an
exception and let the. honourable member's mo-
tion take precedence. It was true that this was a
question of privilege, and such had always had
precedence, but then those questions were always
limited to such as the house had to deal with, and to
judge and decide upon. The motion of the hon.
member, being an address to the Crown to exercise its
prerogative, could never be considered as coming
within such questions of privilege.
The house then resolved itself into a committee.
CHURCH RATES.

Lord A LTHOR P said he presented the petitions
from dissenters, complaining of their grievances,
because he was against the principle of dis-
senters being compelled to pay church rates. He
thought that there was a difference between tithes and
church rates, inasmuch as the latter were uncertain in
their amount, and levied on dissenters as a sort of
compulsion to worship in a manner different from
their conscientious belief. The dissenters had a right
to complain of their grievances, and the legislature had
a right as well to take such steps as would relieve them.
The present state of the law was unsatisfactory to the
church, both in the obstinate refusal of the dissenters to
pay the assessment, and in the inefficiency of the remedy
left the collectors by the power of the law. The
legislature should consequently enact some measures
which would have the proper effect of removing the
complaint and improving the remedy, by rendering the
assessment more just, and of course more easily
brought in. Two plans were suggested to effect
that ; but then neither seemed to him to effect
the wished-for object. The first was proposed by
the ecclesiastical commissioners, but that did not go
to remove the grievances of the dissenters ; it merely
aimed at the securing the church in its revenues. The
adoption of that, therefore, would be unwise, as it
would leave the difficulty unmitigated. Another plan
was to take a middle course—to avoid the great ex-
penditure that was necessary for the internal
decorations of churches, and to relieve the dis-
senters from contributing their money to that purpose.
It had been alleged by those who advocated the claims
of the dissenters, that it was not so much the amount
that was objected to as their being compelled
to contribute for the support of a church to
which they did not belong ; and although their
exemption from the payment of rates for the embel-
lishment of the church might diminish the church
rates, it would not satisfy them. Another proposition
that had been made was,to continue the church rates, but
to exempt Dissenters from the payment. That, certainly,
so far as they were concerned, would be satisfactory,
but the effect of it he (Lord A. ), need not say would be
detrimental to the interests of the established church,
for they could not have the least doubt that if it was
once said that Dissenters were exempted, the number
of those who professed to be dissenters would be very
much increased. He, therefore, could not bring him-
self to make such a proposition, because it would
be quite contrary to every principle of justice
and fairness. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Another pro-
position, which he understood had been made by the
hon. member for Exeter, was to do away with church
rates altogether, and substitute nothing in their place,
but leave the money now levied by the church rates to
be raised by voluntary contributions. It might or
might not be, that the voluntary contributions would,
be sufficient ; in some cases it would be sufficient,
but he, (Lord A.) was far from certain that this would,
generally speaking, be the case. The dissenters called
upon that house not to require of them to contribute to
the support of a church to which they did not
belong, but one consequence of the existence of an
established church (and it was a principle which he
would always advocate) was, that some means should
be provided for the support of its fabric. (Hear.) On
these grounds he (Lord A.) could not have acceded
to any of the propositions to which he had alluded.
In the course of the discussion on the question, the
hon. member for Boston, and the hon. member for the
University of Oxford, had brought forward statements
with which his plan would be found perfectly consonant.
The first said that the dissenters objected not so
much to the amount as the principle, and the latter
that the legislature ought to provide for the support
of the church. The plan of Government would be in
accordance with both opinions ; it was that church rates
should be entirely abolished, and that 250,0001. should
be applied out of the land tax in the manner
which he would show. (Oh, oh 1) Some hon. mem-
bers cried " Oh !" but he would show what he in-
tended. ( Hear.) The mode in which this sum was to be
applied generally was towards the support of the fabric
of the parish churches, by paying it into the hands
of the commissioners, a body which it would be neces-
sary to make permanent. It would be found from the
returns before the house that the sum hitherto applied
was about 245,0001., and the sum proposed to be
appropriated he had not the slightest doubt would be
quite equal to the purpose. As the law at present
existed, either the rector, or the lay impropriator,
was bound to maintain the repairs of the church,
but it was his intention to relieve them from that, but
on condition that the internal services of the church
should be maintained. These were not very heavy
expenses, and the lay impropriator would not be placed
in any worse situation than he was at present ; by this
plan all the expenses now provided for by church rates
would be amply met, for it was intended that the
church fabric should be sustained, anti the ex-
penses of the chancel and the church-yard,
should be met by the rector or the lay impropriator,
There were other points, such as the support of pews.
With respect to pews in parish churches, he thought
it would not be an unfair arrangement to matte those
who had the use of them keep them in re-
pair. (Hear.) It was stated that, with respect to the
faculty and possessory pews, this was the practice.
Another source of expenditure was the visitation fees
paid by churchwKdens. The legal fees which they
wore called on to pay were very inconsiderable ; still
the attendance of churchwardens at visitations
occasioned a very large expenditure. As far, hew-
ever, as the attendance of churchwarclan• On this
Vecleynt aorr
occasion went, that attendance 4u not appear. to he a
matter of very great necessity, therefore he would dis-
pense with it altogether, enabling the parochial clergyo
swear
kin
g from not
t eino
mi n
them upon
tthhee iproaipv
power
Tft
Rat"?
in •d
,
which they at present poz,sessed. By tEe arrangement
at present proposed, it would be necessary to impose
493.4 c (job check as to the expenditure. The check

no .ti4l-1.
w exis gta, / 4su . I p
practice the money voted for the repairs, &c.,
of churches, .went out of the parish, but by
the regulations proposed it would be the reverse,
because all that might be voted would be kept within
the respective parishes. Besides, the amount to be ap-
plied would be limited; and when the claims upon the
church commissioners were larger than the sum at their
disposal would admit of being complied with, the claims
would have to be sent back. In addition to this, there
would be this further check, that when the churchwar-
dens and parochial clergymen thought repairs necessary
they would have to call in the surveyor of the county
to examine and ascertain whether or not those repairs
were absolutely imperative ; the surveyors would have
to report to the quarter sessions, and, upon a certificate
from the quarter sessions only would the repairs be
authorised to be made. The county surveyors were
men of the highest respectability, and this could not
fail to be a satisfactory arrangement, and such as
would prevent any extravagant outlay. It might be
said that he had adverted to no provision for a large
number of bills and other things that might be
considered as luxuries to churches. (Laughter.) If
those things were absolutely necessary, lie had no
doubt that by voluntary contributions they would be
got. It was probable that if the proposition of his
hon. friend the member for Exeter had been adopted—
viz., to leave the whole to voluntary contributions,
that would have been quite sufficient. ( Hear, hear.)
But he thought in the present state of the church cf
England, regard being had to the principles for which
the church establishment existed, it would not have
been consistent with those principlei to have left the
thing in that way. Of course it was impossible for
him to know how this proposition'wOuld be received
by those who were firmly attached to the, church,
and as little did he know in what light the dissenters
themselves would receive it. ( Hear, hear, hear.)
This he was confident of, that with respect to the
church, the maintenance of churches in .repair would
be placed upon a better footing. If things remained as
they were churches would not be repaired, as the
greatest difficulty had already occurred. With respect •
to the dissenters, he would say that they did not object
to the allowance, but to the principle of imposing any
tax peculiarly for the purposes of the established church.
This was the objection they made, and he might. say,
therefore, that as far as both parties were concerned,
the effect of this measure would be, to give satisfac-
tion. There was another point which was not imme-
diately relevant, but which the house ought to consi-
der, namely, that this measure would effect not only a
relief to the scruples of the dissenters, but relieve from a
tax the people of England. They proposed to apply
to the purposes of church rates 250,0001. a year out of
the land tax, while the sum hitherto raised was about
600,0001., the last sum was 560,0001., the measure would
relieve the people from a tax that pressed upon them
to this amount. (Hear, hear.) There had been great
extravagance heretofore in the expenditure of this
money through the churchwardens having an interest
as tradesmen in making improvements, from which
cause much extravagance had arisen. (Hear,
hear, hear.) He had gone through his plan,
and had stated the grounds upon which ho
relied : he did not know the course of objection
which the hon. member for Middlesex meant to take ;
he only knew, from what that hon. member had said,
that he intended to make some objection. He could not
object to the application of part of the land tax, as it would
be relieving the whole country to a large amount, and
the substitution was not a new tax, but the division of
existing taxes. He felt confident, therefore, that tin'
house would support him in moving that, after a
certain time, to be fixed, church rates should
cease, and that, in lieu of them, his Majesty
be requested to grant out of the land-tax a sum
not exceeding 250,000/. for the repair of churches,
that sum to be expended in such manner as Parliament
should think fit. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. HUME disapproved entirely of the measure
brought forward by the noble lord. It would sa-.
tisfy neither the dissenters nor the members of the
established church. It seemed as if the bench
of Bishops had been at the noble lord's elbow when
he arranged that measure. It was merely taking the
hand from the right rocket and putting it into the
left to take money still from the dissenters. Those
ecclesiastical commissioners were the most inimical(
to the feelings of the dissenters, and to the real
interests of the established church ; and any law coming
from them, or to be enforced by them, must be consider-
ed compulsory on people's consciences, and be rejected.
Why had not the noble lord proposed that the sugar
tax or the malt tax, or any other, should be applied
to the purpose of the payment of these rates?
There was no reason why one tax should be preferred
to another, but he ascribed it all to the cunningness
of the clergy who concurred that the land tax was
more secure than any other, and therefore he chose
it. Ho was therefore right in assuming that the
bench of bishops had been his lordship's advisers.
(Hear, hear.) It was a proposition to take from the
public revenues a sum for the support of the church.
The noble lord, with his usual candour, had admitted
an extraordinary fact—that the greatest extravagance
had been exhibited in the management of the church
rates heretofore, and he now proposed to give them thu
management of more money. If the clergy wished a pro_
per settlement of their claims, let them give up the whole
of their revenues, and then the house would put them
in the budget, and grant them whatever they thought
proper. (Laughter.) There was no alternative.

, „
(Liughter.) He (Mr. H.) was not, however, pre-
pared to meddle with the revenues of the church yet.
(Laughter, and cries of "Oh !") He would ask
the noble lord, and his friends who cheered
up as if he had made some monstrous proposition, had
he ever brought forward any measure that he did not
wish to carry by conviction ? But probably the heads
of the noble lord and his friends were at that
moment full of the ideas of robbery and spoliation.
He (Mr. H.) would never advocate spoliation and rob-
berysome ofp
raonpyosi t establishmentproposition
should;
b whate
mhaede wished h
tfoar was t that
house.
The question was, whether the funds were sufficient
for the purposes of maintaining the established
church, and not whether an established church
was necessary. Then the noble lord stated
one reason why 250,000/. should be taken from tbP.
public taxes to support the church. P.ad he
injureth they
laid any documents befor the house to sho,-, that the
funds were not amply sufficient ? 1-
I,.nlil;eg thought
would
that
te
ehmuorreeh,ththaina enough,extravag nt and ifnaet: u a
lly
on the people,
proposition would do it,
The land tax would fall most n
As an instance of that, he wottld merely state, that in the
county of Lancaster, one of the largest and wealthiest in
England, the land tax amounted to only 12,592/., while in
the county of Norfolk, t county far inferior to the former
in wealth and importance, it amounted to 69,792/. In
Warwick it amounted to 25,000/., while in Somersetshire
it was no less than 48,000/, This showed the inequality
p,o‘lf.ho
etphtohes
ttrai
oxn,
theya n
should
he would,
hnouhlidsoapdi
otnthat
thetherefore,ppiaarilt put it
pt
hiotseetdo t
whe would
nobleu
dhouse
lord's
give satisfaction to any class. So far would it be frep,
tending to satisfy the dissenters, that it would show their:
there was no intention of relieving them of the burdens oc.
paying for the support of the established church ; but, otk
the contrary, that the intention was to lay heavier taxes on
them, for undoubtedly the effect of the noble lord's plan
would be to oblige the dissenters to pay more towards the
church than they did before. But besides that, Ireland,
which was hitherto free from paying in support of the
church of England, would now be called on to pay its
proportion of this tPc, (Hear, hear.) He firmly and
confidently hoped that while Episcopal England would de-
cline the proposition of the noble lord, Catholic Ireland
and Protestant Scotland would each enter their protest
against being called on to pay a proportion of the expenses
of a church with which they had nothing to do. (Hear.
hear,) He (Mr. Hume) was convinced that there
might
on the country. They inipht abolish those sine-
gh
this
ptule found meansliposemighth
be
raised
which t
without
he fi l
e,,,iitt,dgs
any additional
for
9iialgures with which the church abounded. (Hear, hear.)
He saw no reason why the sinecures of the church should
hear,) And what we...-e the deans
l
in
of sinecures, whoc;z,existence was in
fuiii,wwcholulentthryoseweiren ethiveile,:;undrsemi-
litaryof
abb nee diprotected
establishmentstaectteds abolishedabudt(
aHken
e: a
rt
no way necessary to the well-being. or security of the
church? (Hear, hear.) If these and other sinecures,
were done away with, f.te revenues which they now ell.
nv,ht•
iersrye
hfoenrroedittheatiparprysruo
joyed would be itraply sufficient for the purposes of the
let the clergy then give
%otvltihatothl
eep lcoo:flu
measure proposed by the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) If
IT all their revenues to the State, and trust to the liberality
only follow the example of his Majesty, who gave up the
why the church should not do the same. On these grounds
Itnaldidoinlige ssao,wtinle:' ;ell!
he considerekl the plan ptoposed by the noble lord as most
ineonzi.derate. He was glad when he heard that the Go-
vernment meant to bring forward a proposition for the
abolition of the church rates ; but he could not deny that
he had expected a plan totally different from that ;vhiclA
by which dissenters would be relieved from the burden of
had then been laid before them. He had expected a plait
supporting the church ; but being disappointed in that,
:end finding that Ireland and Scothuid, both of which had
been eacmpt tytuu this burden, were. no t,,
most unsatisfactory, as he had no doubt it would be to the
ccuntrT at large. (Hear, hear.) The questiou then was,
be so, he could not but say that the proposition to bun
p:Peedvretno.uf,e

people, there was a majority of dissenters over those in
communion with the church of England. But this was
the only instance of the dissenters having a majority over
the churchmen. When, as he had already stated, the
noble lord had brought in his bill, he (Sir R. Inglis)
would be prepared to prove that the dissenters, both as to
numbers and social condition in life, proved a very incon-
siderable body as compared with those who belonged to
the church of England. He would not go further into
the matter at present ; but he could not conclude without
offering his unfeigned thanks to the noble lord, for having
recognised in his intended measure the great principle that
the people ought to be compelled to support a national

what were they to do with the resolution proposed by the
noble lord? He observed, that by the first part of it it was
declared " that' it was the -opinion of this committee-,-that
from and after a time to be fixed, the payment of church
rates shall cease and determine." To that part ofthenoble
lord's resolution he agreed (Hear, and a laugh); but to
the last part, which stated that " in lieu of them his Majesty
be empowered to grant out of the proceeds of the land tax
a sum not exceeding 250,000 L, to be applied to the repair
of ;parish churches," he was opposed. (Hear, hear.) He
would therefore simply move, as an amendment, " That it
is the opinion of this committee that, from and after a time
to be fixed, the payment of church rates in England and
Wales shall cease and determine."
Mr. GISBORNE thought the feeling as to the neces-
sity of a church establishment for the propagation of reli-
gion was most erroneous. They might as well propose a
national medical establishment, and oblige every one to pay
for its support. Whether sick or well, all would then be
called on to pay the state physician. If that was an error
neous principle as regarded a medical establishment, he
was prepared to show that it was not more so than that on
which they now supported a national established church.
(Hear.) The question before the committee now was
merely one as to payment, and what they had to consider
was, whether that payment was just or not? It was evi-
dent to every one, when the Government made a gift of
the church rates to the people of Ireland, that the people
of England would not be satisfied until they were similarly
favoured. (Hear, hear.) That had turned out to be the
case, and the only thing they had now to look to was, whe-
ther the measure proposed for England was similar in its
effect to that which the Irish had obtained. To him (Mr.
Gisborne) the proposition, as explained by the noble lord,
appeared to be a mere trial of the gullibility of the people.
(Hear, hear.) It was like one of those plans of finance
somehow propounded by ingenious statesmen, the object of
which was to make the people believe that when they did
not pay money directly out of their pockets, though the
same amount was raised indirectly from them, they did not
pay it at all. (Hear, hear.) Now what did the dissenters
complain of ? They complained that their money was
taken out of their pockets to support the established church
of England. Would the noble lord's plan relieve them of
that payment? No. The money was to be taken out of
the general bulk of taxation, to which the dissenters paid
their proportion, and the consequence would be, that they
would have to pay just as much towards the support of the
church after this measure was adopted as now. This pro-
position was buta second edition of the Dissenters' Marriages
Bill, which the noble lord who promoted it said was to have
given satisfaction to the whole body of dissenters, but turned
out unsatisfactory to all. He (Mr. G.) agreed with the
hon. member for Middlesex in approving of the first part of
the noble lord's resolution, which. simply declared that the
payment of church rates should cease ; but he could not
support the plan proposed for raising the funds which were
to replace the church rates. He thought either that the
church should be supported by those who used it, or funds
should be raised for that purpose out of the revenues of the
church itself. It was generally admitted, even by the sup-
porters of the church establishment, that there were several
useless sinecures in it which might be abolished without
impairing the sufficiency of the church itself. (Hear,
hear, hear.) The Deans and Chapters, for instance,
might be abolished ; and he was convinced that, however
much the destruction might interfere with the festivities of
the clergy, it would not affect the real object, nor im-
pair the service of the church establishment. From this
source,ahen, an ample fund for the support of the churches
might be derived. It could not be said that the revenues
of the church were too small, and could not afford this
burden on them. There were some thousands of clergy-
men in the church wholly without employment, and it was
clear that the revenues must be large which would draw so
many more than the necessary number of labourers
to the same vineyard. '(Hear, hear.) There was another
view of the subject, that showed the wealth of the church,
namely, this: that for a man of average abilities the church
was a better speculation than any other. (Hear.) If he ( Mr.
Gsborne) had a stupid son—which, he thanked God,
he had not—with whom he did-not know what he should
do, he did not know how he could lay 0ut3,0001. or 4,0001.
for his benefit better than in the purchase of a presentation
to a church living.. (Hear, hear.) It was therefore evi-
dent that the revenues of the church itself were sufficient
n,t only for the support of the clergy, but also for the other
expenses connected with the establishment. He regretted
that the noble lord had not brought forward a better pro-
position. He might have brought forward a measure
which would have given satisfaction to all parties ; but in-
stead of that, he had thought proper to bring one forward
which he (Mr. Gisborne) hoped would be rejected by the
house, he was sure it would ever be unsatisfactory to
the country. ( Hear, hear. )
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that by the resolution
moved by the noble lord it did not appear whether the
250,000/. was to be a permanent burden on the land-tax,
or that it was to be subject to an annual vote of the house.
Lord ALT HORP said it was to be permanent.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS—Then it was to be a tax not'
requiring an annual vote of the house, but was to be an
actual lien upon the land. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord,
be admitted, was placed in a situation of some difficulty
between the hon. member for Middlesex and himself, who
were as opposite and distant in their politics and opinions
as they were in their countries, -the one being from the
northern, the other from the southern extremity of the
country. His (Sir R. Inglis's) objection to the noble
lord's plan was not, however, so strong as that of the hon.
member for Middlesex. He was glad to observe that the
noble lord, _by the, proposition of laying this burden per-
manently on the land-tax, had recognised the principle that
it was the paramount duty of this State—as of every other
State—to make permanent provision for the maintenance
of the public worship .of God. He thanked the noble
lord for this admission (Hear, hear), and he did so the
more readily because it was contrary to his expectation.
(Hear, hear.) But when he (Sir IL Inglis) stated his
approbation of that principle in the noble lord's proposi-
tion, he could not, but say that there his admiration ended..
For though the noble lord said that this was to be a per-
manent provision for the repairs of the church, he could
not bind even the present House 'of Commons, and far
less any future House of Commons, to continue this tax
upon the land permanently for that purpose. (Hear, hear. )
Ile begged to ask the hon. member whether, in purchasing
a house or landed property, any dissenter was excluded
the bargain without having previously made a calculation
of the amount of church rates to which such house or
landed property, would be liable ? The question could
not be answered by the hon. member in the affirmative.
Well, then, he (Sir Robert Inglis) begged again to ask
whether, in that case, it could be said or pretended
that such individual paid the church-rates . to which
such property was liable in his capacity as a dis-
senter ? .Assuredly it could not. The church-rates were
in this supposed case paid only as an incidence on pro-
perty, and not because the person making the purchase
was a dissenter. He ( Sir Robert Inglis) could not, then,
foresee on what principle it could be maintained that the
ssurchaser or holder of property had a right to be released
0,7, the liability of paying church rates in consequence
of hi„tanging his opinions. ( Hear.) He would ask the
noble lore bow many cases of successful resistance to
church-rates had occurred within the last half year? From
a. statement which had been made to him (Sir R. Inglis),
and which he could see no reason to disbelieve, it appeared
there had only be is l fifty such cases in the course of the
period referred to. He would ask, then, what proportion
fifty cases of successful resistance to the collection ofchurch-
rates bore to the 1,200 instances in which resistance had
been made, but without success? It could not be pre-
tended that the dissenters laboured under any heavy bur-
den as respected church-rates in a pecuniary point of view.
The amount they paid was but a mere fraction compared
with the rental of the country. The estimated yearly
eental of the country was 31,000,0001., while of this sum
the dissenters only paid 556,0001. The great burden of
the churches also tell on churchmen themselves. The
amount of church-rate was 3d. per 1/. Taking the pro-
perty as rated, he would ask whether the dissenters paid
the quarter of a farthing of the sum so raised ? The dis-
senters, therefore, he repeated, could not complain of the
church-rates being a burden in a pecuniary point of view.
It had been said that the dissenters ought not to be made
xo pay church-rates, because it was centrary to their con-
eesiences. There could not be a more pernicious senti-
' meats than that one man's conscience should be made the
Pipits of another man's rights. If any man purchased pro-
ferty with certain burdens attached to it, that person
had- no right pep complain of that burden. The hon.
member for Middlesex had said that the house hd no right
to compel any man tn sad said a thing from which he de-
rived no benefit. (Here 3jr. Hume cried " Hear, hear,"
with peculiar emphasis.) The hon. member coolly and
deliberately adopts the proposition as his sown, (Mr.
Hume nodded assent.) He (Sir R. Ioglis) maintained
the very reverse. As a case in point he would ask the
hon. member, whether, as the police were appointed for
nreventing the depredations of the 30,000 thieves which
*tve: in London, those thieves ought alone to be made to
for
'he support of the polices (Loud laughter, which
gonti4ued for !tome, time.) He begged the hon. member's
pardon s in putting his case he meant no personal disre-
spect to hire, (RenewjA laughter, ) He (Sir R. Inglis)
contended that it, must ba a principle in the administratiop
of-every state, that alithe members of that state ought to
be made to pay for the support of every
.institution from
which, though only indirectly, they derived a benefit.
When the bill of the noble lord should be brought into the
house, he should be prepared to enter fully into the con-
flicting statements which had lately been made respeetipg
the numbers and social condition of the dissenters.
present he would content himself with saying, that he be-
lieved that the great majority of those persons, taking the
country as a whole, who attended places of public worship,
were at this moment in communion with the church of
England. (Hear, hear.) When he used the terms in
communion with the church of England, he meant those
who were members of that church, in contradistinction
from those who were members in dissenting congregations.
In Lancashire the population was 1,560,000, and the total
number of persons not members of the church, even
including the Roman Catholics, was only 255,411. He
was willing to admit that in one county, in consequence
of its being a great plaCe for rnannfactures„,wh!chle4 to at,.
increase "in 'the pispiilation-lii gatvatat ratitr-t hait-th e-
-40.11.4 was We to provide, for the spiritual wants 9f the

chursch.-
Mr. PHILLIPS differed from his right hon. friend, the
member for Oxford, with regard to the comparative num-
bers of churchmen and dissenters. He maintained that, in
the great majority of instances, the places of worship of
the dissenters were far better attended than were the
churches of the establishment. It could not afford him

(31r. Phillips), as he was himself a churchman, any plea-
sure in making this statement other than that which must
be derived from a desire thatthe truth should be known,

He begged to disclaim all hostility to the church in having
some time since brought forward a measure for relieving
dissenters from the grievances nnder which they labour.
He had done so simply from a wish to do justice to all
parties. He trusted there would be such an expression of
the sentiments of the house on this subject as would satisfy
the country that the dissenters were no longer to be com-
pelled to pay for the support of a church of which they
conscientiously disapproved. His right honourable friend,
the member for Oxford, had said that there was no
hardship in paying church rates out of property bought
with that burden. His right hon. friend did not appear to
have read the report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ;
for if he had, he would have there seen that there were
two kindS of church rates, between which a very broad dis-
tinction was drawn. His right hon. friend, he (Mr.
Phillips) believed, had greatly underrated the cases of re-
sistance to the payment of church rates within the last six
months. Whether this were so or not, he thought that
all cause of resistance to the payment of rates ought to be
encouraged. He was decidedly of opinion that it would
be far better for the church herself, as well as for the dis--
senters and the country generally, if the church were sup-
ported by voluntary contributions-. The people did not like
the idea of compulsion in religious matters. Judging from
what he (Mr. Phillips) had yesterday seen, in the case of
a collection for a church, he was strongly impressed with
the idea, that instead of Parliament voting 950,0001. for
the building of churches, the people would build as many
churches as werenecessary for themselves. (Hear, hear. )
He thought, therefore, he should be acting more justly and
properly in supporting the proposition of the hon. member
for .Middlesex, than in voting for the motion of the noble
lord ; supporting it, he would say, in the broadest accepta-
tion of the terms. He fully concurred with the hon. mem-
ber, that no man ought to -be compelled to pay for the
support of that from which he derived no benefit. In sup-
porting the amendment, therefore, of the hon. member for
Middlesex, he begged the house would not infer that he
did so from any hostility to the motion of the noble lord,
but solely because it was a measure far more liberal and
just.
Mr. WILES said, that the grievances of the dissenters
were both numerous and great ; and that respectable and
numerous body had now determined to use every means in
their power to procure their redress. If those grievances
were not speedily and satisfactorily explained, the dissen-
ters would withhold that cordial, and steady, and powerful
support from the administration which they would other-
wise so cheerfully give it. The grievances of the dissen-
ters were a great national question, and if not satisfactorily
adjusted—if'dissenters were not relieved from the payment
of rates to support a church of which they conscientiously
disapproved, there would be a constant and very unpleasant
collision between them and those whose duty-it was to ad-
minister to their spiritual wants, in all future attempts to
collect those rates. He wished that, in the measure of the
noble lord, the principle that the people had no right-to
pay for the support of that from which they derived no be-
-nefit, had been recognised. The numbers of the dissen-
ters had been greatly tmderrated . they had very rapidly
increased of late years. In the principality of Wales, the
entire number of dissenting places of worship, 50 years
ago, was only 35 ; now the number was no less than 1,500.
And taking the whole country, he (Mr. Wilks) would
maintain, that the number of persons who atterided dissent-
ing places of worship was far, greater than that which at-
tended the'ehurch of England; and, therefore, to vote
the yearly sum- of 250,000/. for the support of that church
was most unjust.- It had been said that, in so far as the
church-rates were concerned, there was no ground for com-
plaint on the part of dissenters, because the share of those
rates which they had to .pay was very trifling. It was
not the amount of the sum which dissenters had to pay
in the shape of church-rates, but the principle involved,
that they complained of. It was from principle that they
resisted the payment of those rates. The right hon. ba-
ronet, the member for Oxford, was one of 'those who said
that the amount of church rates which fell to the lot of dis-
senters to pay, was trifling ; yet the right hon. baronet was
one of the small, but honourable minority, who the other
night resisted the grant to Maynooth College, though the
sum was quite trifling. It was, he believed, from principle
solely, that the right hon. baronet and those who acted
with him on the occasion, • had opposed the grant in. ques-
tion ; and it was precisely for the same reason and on the same
ground, that the dissenters now resisted the payment of the
church rates. On the rock of principle they stood firm, and
nothing on earth would ever remove them from that rock.
The principle involved was the same, whether the dissen-
ters were compelled to pay for the support of a church of
which they conscientiously disapproved, or whether they
were subjected to the pains of martyrdom because they
would not conform to that church. The dissenters were
prepared to resist, and he would venture to say they would
resist, this grievance to the last. Many of the most pious
and learned men in the country, and the ablest defenders
of Christianity, belonged to that class who conscientiously
dissented from the established church. Did the house know
what the dissenters did for the support of religion ? They
raised from 500,0001. to 800,0001. annually for the erec-
tion and repair of their own chapels, and the suppcirt of
their own Ministers. But even if they did less than this ;
if they were less zealous, less pious, less learned, he (Mr.
Wilks) maintained that the Legislature had no right to
compel them to support a church from which they con-
scientiously dissented.. Dissenters had ever shown their
anxiety to forward the real interests of religion : several
times had sums of a million or a million and a half been
voted for building of necessary churches' to which dissen
ters had never offered any opposition. As we understood
the hon. member, the frequenters of the church could not
afford to keep it in repair ; to make up the 250,0001. pro-
posed would only requirels/. or 20/. from each parish.
He trusted that ministers would not press the measure as
it stood ; if they did, they would be persisting in a course
which their best friends could not but regret, and which
would be equally dissatisfactory to all parties.
Mr. STANLEY said that this was at any rate the first
time his Majesty's Government had been in the situation
described of having proposed a measure which was equally
displeasing to two parties diametrically opposed to each
other in their opinions on almost every 'subject : it ap-
peared to him (Mr. Stanley) that it would be next to im-
possible to frame so peculiar a bill. He had no hesita-
tion in declaring that in introducing this measure, his Ma-
jesty's Ministers had principally in view the desire and in-
tention of affording to dissenters that just and liberal relief
which they considered that body fairly entitled to on this
occasion, and at the same time to maintain and secure for
the established church that decent support which they
considered to form a necessary ingredient and accompani-
ment of the very words " established church." (Hear,
hear.) Highly as he respected in general the authority
of the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, whose exten-
sive acquaintanee' with the dissenters gave great weight,
generally speaking, to his observations-:.on these subjects,
he (Mr. Stanley) would be very loath to take his declare-
tions' on the present occasion ‘as an index of the sentiments
of the great body of the dissenters. On the contrary, the
sentiments just uttered by that hon. member wholly dif-
fered from the opinions expressed by many influential dis-
senters, who denied any wish to dissever church from state,
and who, it followed, did not object that there should be
set aside out of the public funds a sufficient sum for the
due and decent maintenance of the churches, which was
precisely the meaning of having established churches. The
hon. gentleman had said, no doubt very justly, that the
dissenters felt the church rates as a more peculiarly offen-
svie grievance to them, as not being frequenters of the
churches maintained by the rates. The object of the pre-
sent bill was to do away with many of the annoyances and
grievances felt particularly by them in the collection of
the rate, and very largely to reduce its total amount. The
right hon. member for Oxford had objected to the measure
on the ground that it would interfere with the security of
the established church. So far from agreeing to this pro-
' position, he (Mr. Stanley) firmly believed that the measure
would turn out to be the best security of the established
church against those dangers which, in the present temper
of the times, it appeared liable to. (Hear, hear.) His
right hon. friend had told him that only in " some fifty or
sixty parishes had there been any successful opposition to
church rates"—possibly—but his right hon. friend had,
omitted to mention the very many parishes in which the
Opposition had failed, for the time only. (Hear, hear.)
He had omitted the consideration that in hundreds of
parishes the people only waited to see what would be done
for them by ministers before they set about any thing for
themselves. (Hear.) He had omitted to take into cons
sideration what and how general the indignation was
likely to he if Parliament refused to remedy any of the
grievances sq universally complained of, or to do away with
any portion of the existing rates. (Hear, hear.) But
even supposing the right hon. baronet to be correct in his
opinion, that actual opposition would be put down, that the
rates could be enforced to their uttermost farthing, and
every abuse connected with the system kept Up, did the
right hon. member think that such a " success" would tend
to the advantage of either the church, society at large, or
religion itself ? Had he well considered the heart-burn-
ings, the jealousies, the recriminations, and the frequent
desecrations of the church itself, which the collection of
these rates gave rise to year after year, and which year
:tiler year. 40.Wettiieued41164hUielt &:+4l4.lVlll;l44,PrePared.
to sacrifice the church establishment ; far from it ; nor

did he think that the great body of the people—nor, he
would say, the great body of the dissenters themselves were.
(Hear, hear.) He firmly believed that they wished the
established church to be supported, not indeed in luxury
and extravagance, but in decency and respect, and that
they would readily agree to contribute their share towards
all reasonable charges for such a purpose. In the proposi-
tion of his noble friend, there was a very large reduction in
the total amount of the sum raised, and an almost entire
removal of the offensive nature of the collection. He ad-
mitted that the amount was a matter of less consideration
than the principle of the rate ; but would any one tell him
that the proposed bill was not a very beneficial relief in
every point of view? (Hear, hear.) His hon. friend
had affirmed that the burden and vexations of the people
would be augmented
_by this " new tax." (Hear.) But
how this could be, when instead of 566,000/., the present
amount of church rates, it was only proposed to raise
250,0001., he could not conceive. To his unsophis-
ticated mind, it appeared a clear gain to the people, and
peculiarly grateful to the dissenters, of no less a sum per
annum than 310,0001. (Hear, hear.) Yet the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Hume) cried out that it was a new and
additionally offensive tax, a fresh grievance, and a fresh
infliction on their consciences. (Hear, hear.) He had,
as it was, a high opinion of that hon. member's powers of
calculation, but he should look upon him indeed as, like
Cassio, a great arithmetician, if he could satisfy him that
although people paid only 250,000/. instead of 566,0001.
they saved. nothing. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member
for Boston had complained that the bill would relieve the'
dissenters from nothing that was peculiarly offensive or
grievous to them in these rates. He (Mr. Stanley) alto-
gether differed from this view of the question, for it ap-
peared to him that the tax—greatly reduced in amount. as
it was--coming upon dissenters in common with every one
else, as a tax upon the subject for the support of a national
establishment, would come before them divested of muck
of its present peculiar offensiveness to their feelings as
i " dissenters." He did not see how any gentleman who
voted an annual sum for the support of a Roman catholic
college, who voted 25,000/., an annual sum, for a Presby-
terian establishment, and another sum for the Belfast in-
stitution—how any gentleman who voted for these grants
• could get up and oppose the present bill, which was of a
similar character with those he had mentioned. The pro-
testants of Ireland agreed very readily to contributing their
quota to the national grant, as a national grant for the
.support of Maynooth college, although, if the tax-
gatherer came round to demand specifically their quota
towards the maintenance of Maynooth college, many
of them would probably resist - payment on the ground
that it would be against their conscience and religious
principle to contribute towards the encouragement and
support of any Roman Catholic establishment. He trusted
that the house would not reject the bill, as it would be in-
curring on themselves a very great responsibility, whether
the church ultimately triumphed, or whether the dissenters
ultimately succeeded in attaining their generally unde-
fined projects—undefined lie called them, though several of
their body, whom, he had heard, had expressed their
wishes for the disseverance of church and state pretty.
broadly. He trusted, however, that the house would do
their utmost to effect a reconciliation between the' two
elasses at present so opposed to each other. If 'they al-
lowed the amendment of the hon. member to succeed, it
would be impossible for the administration, with their opi-
nions and views on the subject, to proceed with the mea-
sure. His Majesty's ministers were most desirous of doing
away with all the abuses and grievances,of the system, and
of ;limiting the amount: of the contribution of the state to
as low a sum as was sufficient to support in decency and re-
spectability, that church which was the establiiheachurch of
the kingdom. This measure they considered as best cal-
culated to'forward and secure the real interests of that
church. He, as well as his colleagues, was most anxious
to remove every well-founded complaint ,on. the part of
- dissenters, and to conciliate with that body, and he there-
fore trusted that the house would pass the measure ; if they
unhappily should reject it, upon them must rest the entire
responsibility, for his Majesty's government had exonerated
themselves from any share in it by their anxious care in
framing the bill, and their strenuous efforts in aid of its
success.
Mr. WHITTLE HARVEY said that notwithstanding
the declaration made by a distinguished member of the
cabinet, that this measure had been framed with much
care, and an anxious desire to remove in particular ' the
real grievances of the dissenters, he (Mr. W. Harvey) felt
he could not conscientiously side with ministers on the
occasion. He, as well as other members, had already
been under the painful necessity—though desirous of aid-
ing the ministers, if possible (Hear, hear), of appear-
ing in the lists of their opponents, from the
.most unhappy
course adopted by there, of bringing before the house no-
thing but half measures (Hear, hear) ; measures foUnded
on mere petty details, and conveying no great or -praise-
worthy principle, instead of acting as they should in their
character of a reformed administration, by framing effec-
tive and beneficial measures, founded on a broad, open, and
liberal principle. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. secretary
declared himself ready to remove every well-grounded cause
of complaint on the part of the dissenters. What, then,
were those complaints on the part of that disinterested,
noble-minded, and generous body, to whose support, and
power the present administration had hitherto mainly owed
th it continuance in office, and the withdrawal of whose
support would go far to shake that administration from
their office? (Hear, hear.) They did not object to the
amount, however exorbitant it intrinsically was,' of these
rates; but they objected to them in tote on principle, as
Protestant dissenters, conscientiouslydiffering from the tenets
of that church which they were, in these rates, called upon
to support. They were a- Protestant dissenting branch of
a Protestant dissenting church, and they saw no reason
why they should be called upon to contribute, towards the
maintenance of another branch of religion, merely be-
cause the latter described itself as the established church.
The friends of this established religion contended, very
furiously, that the religion of the majority should be held
and supported as the established religion of the cbuntry.
If this were the proper sort of rule, how could they de-
fend their conduct towards Ireland (Hear; hear, hear),
upon which country, although the very vast majority of its
people were Catholics, was . thrust the Protestant esta-
blished religion, which the Catholics were' called upon to
support ? Religion is and should be considered a personal
faith—a feeling to which every man can look for consola-
tion, and for his peculiar view of which he should not be
amenable to any human being. Every man had an altar
in his own breast, on which he offered that incense to the
Supreme Being, to whom he owes his, reverence, by whose
hope he is inspired, and by the fear of whose displeasure
he is awed. To break in upon this true faith was to make
religion a Romish establishment, by imposing certain .ar-
bitrary articles of faith, and by enforcing an obedience to
those arbitrary articles by laws which, according to their
tenor, it was as criminal to break, as, to violate- any other
law enacted in Parliament. The Protestant Dissenters of
England were not enemies of the Episcopalian doctrines,
and he was sorry to hear it said in that house, most of
whose members had been educated and nurtured in the
bosom of the Established Church, that that church re-
quired the fact of its being an Established Church, and
incidents resulting from such fact, to keep it up at all ;
and that without such external power it would fall a shat-
tered fragment to the ground. He had not thought so ill
of the Church of England, as by law established. It was
not the church itself which the Dissenters objected to,
but to the church's unholy alliance with the state (Hear,
hear, hear) : an alliance authorised nowhere in Scripture,
and highly detrimental to the true interests of the
church itself ; and many, of the most distinguished orna-
Ments of that church had inveighed against the alliance
as most improper and injurious. As to 'the bill itself, it
appeared to him as' a sort of codicil of the noble lord's
budget, which he thought had been despatched long ago.
The noble lord; in opening his budget, had said there would
be a surplus of 500,000/., which his lordship suggested
should, in the present state of things, be allowed to remain
untouched for contingencies, yet here his lordship was
going to expend half the amount at one blow. The bill
was a most unwilling one to the dissenters. His Majesty's
Ministers professed a desire to be liberal to the. Protestant
dissenters ; but if the dissenters looked on this proposition
in any other light than as an insult to their understandings
and to their best feelings, he most wrongly interpreted
their good sense. If the country was to have an esta-
blished church, he would admit that it must be supported;
otherwise it would be like a government without a re-
venue. The dissenters were, he believed, not prepared to
go the length of saying, you shall have no established
church at all ; but what they did say was, you have `a re-
venue
nc which is more than sufficient for the proper Main-
tenae of that church. What declared the right hon.
gentleman who had just' preceded him on this subject?
He (Mr. Harvey) was particularly desirous to call atten-
tioni to the remark of the right hon. gentleman, because le
was supposed to be a strong adherent -of the church, and
anything, therefore, having reference to it that fell from
him must be taken to be conclusive—to have, indeed, all
the force of a canon. The right hon. gentleman then
stated that Protestant dissenters ought to be called on to
furnish no more for the support of the church than was ab-
solutely necessary. The proposition of government
was to charge on the land tax the church rates,
amounting to a ‘uaxter of a million a year. Thus
a quarter of a million .a year was to be charged upon,
the public resources, and though at 'the time this sum
was demanded, they were told that they ought not to be
called on to contribute more to the support of the church
than was necessary, they were left completely in the dark
as to what the resources of the church were. (Hear. )
He conceived it would not be denied that the proposition
amounted to this; that the church rates were to be charged
on the revenue ; he conceived that the land tax was' to be
considered a portion of the revenue. Now surely, on the
principle of the right hon. gentleman, before the proposed
measure was adopted by the house they ought to be in-
formed what were the available resources of the church.
Ile (Air. H.) could not think the right hon. gentleman was
playing a devoted part to the church, when he allowed its
adherents to be constantly referring to its resources with-
out stating their amount. He (Mr. Harvey) believed
that if they inspected such documents as were before the
house, and that were open to every hon. gentleman equally
with himself; if they examined these papers, or if the re-
venues of the-clwreit-wera -larauglAdairly a,ild- fully- tinder
the inspection of the commission which the noble lord talked

of establishing; were such a security instituted, the ecde- 1 opinion, however, the reverse was also the fact in other
siastical resources of the counteyeef every kind would be 1 instances. He maintained that there might be a church
found to amount to not less than 5,000,000/. a year. He (-establishment in the state, supported too by compulsory
contended that he had a right to assume this was the amount, payments, and yet there might be the most perfect reli-
inasmuch as it appeared to be no less from the best infor- e emus freedom. (Hear,. hear.) While all contributed
mation he could collect on the subject, and the noble lord • towards the support of the church establishment, it
(Althorp) would not, by opening other sources of infor- could not be . fairly said that it benefitted one class
mation, put them in possession of- the fact. Were alone, viz., that which belonged to the establishment,
they to be told then that this church,"which was said to I but the whole community derived advantage from it.
I
be groaning under its wrongs, which they were told num- At the same time, he would refuse to enter into
bered amongst its followers half the population of this the, sanctuary, of men's consciences; that should be
country ; that this Christian Church, which had an utter left to every man's own breast. . Every man should
abhorrence of abuses, whose doctrines were decidedly ini- ibe allowed the free performance of those religious ob-
. mical-to all worldly grandeur, whose first principle as pro- I servances and that faith which his conscience told him
pounded by its ministers was, that their kingdom was not were the best. He (Lord J. Russell) would go along
of this world, whose objects were what was more substan- with the dissenters in their efforts to get rid of restriction
tial than those artificial distinctions that were thrown around on account of their religious faith' so long as they had
ambitious men ; were they to be told, he askede that for any such grievances to get removed, but he • could go no
this church—the members and supporters of which had further. He certainly could not go the extent of the hon.
their minds and lives thus dedicated to things imperish- and learned member for Colchester ; and he must express
able, held such a provision to be necessary to its support? Isis regret if in going as far as he was prepared to go--if
If so, .he must say, that he thought it a tolerably modest in removing grievances to the extent to which he was ready
estimate. (Hear, hear.) Had, then, this christian to remove them, the dissenters would have him proceed
church no basis for its support—no basis independent of its farther, would have him do still more. If he under-
principles on which to stand, without possessing in addi- stood the hon. and learned gentleman, he would'
tion the amount in question of 250,000/. ? He would ask, not be satisfied with any principle in which an established
on the other hand, by what mode the dissenters supported church was recognised. The proposition now before the
their places of worship? By what mode but the voluntary house was that of setting aside a certain sum out of the
contributions of those who attended them ? The honour- land-tax of England and Wales to be applied to the sup-
able baronet entered into a comparison to show, that, in port of the church. The funds were to be applied to the
point of numbers, the diisenters were insignificantilhat keeping of the church in repair. He did not think that
in point of wealth they were beneath consideration ; yet, there was in this arrangement anything connected with
when he found them, barren as they were in resources, and divine worship to which dissenters could object. Where
poor iri numbers, raising nearly 1,000,000/. by voluntary dissenters' places of worship were built, there were inva-
contributions for the support of their own places of worship, riably congregations in want of them; if the congregations
what was to be thought of its being said that the were to fall off, the chapel or meeting-house would be al-
-250,000/. was necessary for the support of the lowed to go to decay. The subscriptions diminishing, the
churcheewhat _were they to think of the argument, place of meeting would sometimes be removed to some
which came to this—that unless such a sum was other part of the country. • With regard to the churches
graeitedethis church, which they were told was the pure of the-establishment it ;. was very differentthey were the
church, the very essence of Christianity, would crumble ancient edifices of the kingdom. The people would
beneath the weight of its own difficulties ? He would be sorry to see their parish churches •: falling into
ask• where was' his Majesty's 'Attorney-General? (A decay, yet such would in the majority of cases occur,
laugh.) Where was his Majesty's Solicitor-General? unless some provision were made for keeping them
He inquired where was the Attorney-General of England in repair. The churches in towns would probably be re-
(Laughter) that he was not present to take the instruc- paired out of sums that would be raised from private indi-
tions of his Majesty's government to go into the, Court of viduals, but in parishes, where the population was small, a
King's Bench, and there exercise his authority against sufficient amount could not be obtained, and such he be-
those whoedaeed thus to calumniate the church? The lieved, would be the regret: of. Englishmen to see their
doctrines of a church, to secure the affections of a people, public buildings perishing, that applications would probably
should become matters of conduct ; but if, on the` con- at last be made to that house for votes to supply the necese
trary, they were violated, the external ministerings would sary funds. The hon. member for Middlesex had offered
become-mere mockeries. It was said that dissenters would to the house an argument which, on examination, would
now find themselves relieved. Why, so they would be in be found to be perfectly. inconsistent. He: said that the
common with all those who never paid the churcherates. measure would not satisfy the church • the hon. gentleman
But, then, these rates were to be paid in the shape of a also alleged that it hadthe approval of bench of bishops,
tax. He would ask, if they were to extinguish tithes as , whose proposition it might, indeed, be considered. Now
it was proposed to extinguish church rates; and they found it must be apparent that if the bishops were its authors, and
a substitute, and they were placed on the Consolidated if it had their approval, it was .morally impossible that it
Fund, would such an arrangement not be dealing with should not satisfy the church. But the fact was, that it
the resources of the country ? The church rates were as did not emanate from the bench of bishops ; there had been
.much a charge on property as the tithe, itself. (Hear.) no concert—no communication with them as regarded that
Only the other day he paid 14/. on account of Ins house measure. It was brought forward with the view explained
in York-street for the repairs of a neighbouring "church. by his right hon. friend the Secretary for the Colonies,
If he sought, to dispose of his lease to-morrow would lie viz., to do away with _the perpetual and increasing strife
not be asked what were the outgoings,- what the amount and disputes, and at the same time to preserve that which
of the house tax, what the--window tax, what the poor his Majesty's government wished to preserve—the estae
rates, and what the church rates? - Were not the 'church blished church. He (Lord J. Russell) and his colleagues
rates then as much an incumbrance on property asmould had, of course, little reason to expect the support on this
be any of the other rates or taxes that could be mentioned? occasion of the hon. member for Middlesex and others,
The noble lord (Althorp) proposed to take the.incum- whose object was to destroy; but they didhope to have the
brance -from off property on which it was at present, and support of those Who with themselves wished the church
to
_eilace it—where? Why, it was to be borne by the maintained, at the same time that they entertained the de
poor ;by those who now bore all the great burdens of the' .sire to see its abuses reformed. . . . .
country. A system like this was utterly. repulsive. He- Mr. C. FERGUSSON thought it extremely desirable
was most anxious to impress on the Government that, that no decision should be called for until the house had
however much they might think their measure would re- before it a statement of .the revenues of the established
concile itself to the dissenters,- because it would occasion church, in order that it might see whether or not, for the
them to be called on for 10s. in the pound, or 250,000/. maintenance of that church, it was necessary to grant some
instead of 500,000/.—however much -it might be hoped fund if the present church, rates were abolished. It ap-
that the dissenters would say, " this is not a church rate, peered, however, that they were to have no such inquiry,
because it is not so called," they would nevertheless feel and he supposed, therefore, that they were to conclude
that this was a charge expressly and exclusively for the that the noble lord (Althorp) had, gone into the matter
support of the church from whose doctrines and discipline and fully satisfied himself that a substitute was necessary.
they conscientiously differed. He felt it to be his duty to He agreed with the hon. baronet the member for the
declare this much in behalf of that body with whose feel.. ,University of Oxford that the church cess was an impost
ings and opinions he might be supposed to be acquainted, upon property • and, doing so, he could not concur in the
it being known that he had some connection with them.• proposition before the comniittee. They had relieved the
The Government were deceiving theniselves. .It would landlords in Ireland from' the tax, and they might, if they
have been far better for them to have left the matter, en- saw fit, relieve the landlords in England, but not at the
tirely alone to work its way—for work its own way it as— eipeise of others. . . . '
suredly would—than to deal or dabble in these insighifi- Air. GILLON would be unworthy of being returned to
cant and - paltry contrivances. The honourable gentle- that house by a Scotch constituency if he did not take the
_man (Mr. Stanley) in remarking on the insignificancy of earliest opportunity of protesting against the measure as
the measure, took occasion to allude to the charge against one of confiscation and robbery. He knew not what Eng-
him; that he waseupposed to be acting in concert with the fish members might think of it, but he could hot Conceive
friends of the hon. baronet the member for Oxford {Skit that any Irish or Scotch member could by possibility sup-
Inglis). He (Mr.. Harvey) must say that he had no doubt port it. The Secretary for the Colonies had said that it
but if the right hon. gentleman had entered the conclave would relieve the dissenters. It might relieve the English
of the hon. baronet's friends, and heard -their secret 'opi- dissenters, but how it-could relieve the Scotch or Irish
nions, he would have discovered that there. was no plan dissenters he was at a loss to understand. - Again, the
Whicll could have been suggested that would: better have right hon: gentleman talked of supporting the established
recommended itself to them than the plan now propounded. church in decency as essential to the interestdistct of religion.
.
in
It was a God-send to them. The church-rate could not He should say there would be much more of :decency a
last more than another year -or two. They knew that. church gorged with riches, and revelling in the plunder of
The noble lord (Althorp) observed on the number of pe- another establishment, resigning some of , its immense and
titions from the dissenters. He mentioned some forty or ill-gotten wealth, instead of seeking to_ impose a most
pale.
lordship from Leicester, Nottingham, and other places ; his iniquitous burden upon those altogether without its
lordship did not mention the town which he (Mr. Harvey) Mr. C. W. WYNN was willing to give his support t.o
had the honour to represent ; and he appeared. to infer that the resolution, without expressing any in
the country throughout was as pleased with the church- of the noble lord's plan until he had an Opportunity of
rate as it' was with the tithes, and that it was not discon- examining more into its details. There were abuses in
tented with either. (A laugh.) Did -this popular . admi- the. church, he was bound to- admit, and -if those abuses
nistration want the dissenters to exhibit themselves in for could be removed without endangering the general fabric
midable array—to become a species of union, and to march of the established church, every conscientious member of it
down-Parliament-street and over the bridge? (Laughter.) was bound to exert himself in bringing about such a dee
If he required some demonstration .of .hostility. to the sirable consummation. The existing powers of taxation
church-rate, he might have remembered, for he knew it under the head of chureh rates he conceived were much
very well, that the storm had been hushed by appeals to too unlimited, and, he was therefore willing that they should
the good sense of the dissenters, to whom it had been said be fully considered' by Parliament with a view to their
1--f' Be still ; the government are your friends; waitawhile ' being in fature confined to those purposes to which they
, and bless their kindness !" • They did wait, and this night were properly referable, namely, ' the administration of
they had the promised measure, and a precious measure it divine service, and the maintenance and repairing of
-was. There surely never was an instance in which good churches. There were. many objections, in his opinion, to
intention was so perverted. The excuse the government the fund on which the church rates were intended to be in
made was a very poor one. They said, "We can'tdo more; future placed, but he would reserve his observations on
why should you ride willing people to death? -Though we that point until the proper season for their discussion
are your friends—though we have been in office only four arrived. To place the church expenses on the land tax
years, we have had many things to effect, with a formidable was, in his opinion, to place it on a most insecure and
enemy in array against us, and all we ask of you is to be varying fund. He thought, likewise, that in their zeal to
patient (Laughter) ; tarry awhile, and all will be well." do away with what was called compulsory payments for
Why it would have been better for the Government to come church purposes, the government had gone too far. After
ferward and say, that the same principle which had been some further remarks, which the increasing impatience of
applied to the Church of Ireland ought to be applied to the the house rendered totally inaudible, the right hon. gentle-
Church of England (Hear, hear) ; that though they man sat down . repeating his intention of voting in support
would not sanction any measure to dissolve the connection of the resolution. .
between church and state, yet they were of opinion that Mr. ROBINSON contended that the complaints of the
the church, richly endowed as it was, ought, out of its own Protestant dissenters would not be removed by the propo-
honour, to support itself. (Hear, hear.) If such a proposition of the noble lord, while It would have the effect of
sition had been made this night in place of the one they giving cause of complaint to the great body of the country
had heard, he was quite sure that it would have secured by imposing upon them, in an indirect way he admitted, an
the affections of the dissenters: - Government might have entirely new tax. (Cries of " No, no.") He would main-
had to oppose themselves to the resistance of another - taro it would impose a new tax, because its 'effect would be
party, but they would have found it quite sufficient in that to eat up a quarter of a million of those available resources
case to throw themselves on the good sense and good feel- to which the whole country was looking for relief from
ings of the people. With perfect confidence they might taxation. For his part, while he was decidedly of opinion
have relied on the—he would not say numerical—force of that an established church was necessary, and while-pre-
the dissenters, but that moral power rather, which was ex: pared on all occasions to uphold it, he was ready to relieve
erted' so successfully during the memorable struggle for all his dissenting brethren from the support of an esta-
' that great measure through which the present Ministry blishment in which they did not concur. - The effect of
obtained power, and from which the dissenters all expected the noble lord's proposition appeared to him to be neither
great benefits. (Hear.) Suppose the Government had more nor less than to relieve the landed gentry of the
.found a power out of the house too mighty for them, had country by placing on the community at large a new tax of
office' become so attractive to them that they could not 25Q,0001. Of one thing he could assure the noble lord,
make up their minds to leave it? If this was not' the case, and that was that his plan would not prove satisfactory
why did they not act in a straightforward and intelligent either to the dissenters or the public at large ; and of the
way, that the people could understand ? (Hear.) Why truth of this assertion he ventured to predict the house
did they not withhold all speculations till the public feeling would soon have ample proof.
and the state of parties enabled them to perfect a measure? Sir M. RIDLEY, as a friend to the established church,
As it was, they had been constantly relaxing everything was ready to vote for the proposition of his noble friend, as
and establishing nothing—exciting every species of hope being a plan most congenial to the best interests of that
and confirming every species of dissatisfaction. (Hear. ) church at the present moment. It might not prove in the
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he felt it incumbent on fullest sense satisfactory to the dissenters„ but he thought
him to declare his opinions in opposition to those of the the house ought to recollect that there were other interests
hon. and learned' member for Colchester (Mr. Harvey), besides those of the dissenters to be considered and legis-
and to thelion. member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume). They lated for. ,
said it would give them pleasure, if, instead of opposing the Mr. WALLACE (who spoke amid loud cries of " Ques-
measure brought forward by his Majestey's government, tion") felt called upon as the representative of a Scottish
they could have given it their support, which they might borough to condemn the proposition of the noble lord as
have been able to do had it been founded on some broad an indirect and insidious attack on the' established religion
principle. There were, no doubt, some measures on of his country. The people of Scotland were quite ready
which the hon. member for Colchester, and the members to pay for the support and' maintenance of their religion,
siinichtbceirincuamonstearntbcees,nhobeiceonlotredndaedp,rhopoadanitoioroig, ht
if
jo f. hRi so
allalealjle; Majesty's
should
vbeen:venalei
tni to 'mightg i o
e a
na gdroeuer ;
if y et
eh e
did c L enrold
taondb,eutnadxeerd
hiss t a t
he
ot
nh
.e
friendreason w
wehrey tohoenthinoun and
ai.
lylearned
disappointed
gentlemana
t and
the
prod. adopted, would
Mr.
BA
iN do.
E s ( wbo.was
ce
ceedings of government it was this : there wasa difference of cries of " Question") expressed his ul
abeibe from the
liiefltbattbep loud
ropo.
principle between them. The wish of the latter was to sition of the noble lord would prove anything but gratify-
preserve and reform ; it never would be their object to de- ing to a very large portion of the community, and, More-
sci onceoti ra
rgoeec•dh.a
at
choTnahhte;er.ahitfone nste..b
de,
imi
id
oenepmoi
ndbt Middlesexiietodbrninfsflookrtotf(bitiishsgeau pqi
seueoe at i stated taei
Ind
phli
ys
affect-differ-
theover,
dissenters.i t would I
tb
was
.as regardedbrou brought
ast f
omr
iovsatr
d evidently unsatisfactory
i.
it
bb by
a
wvieerwes,prbeutaideed- v.,uidesgveeoff
it; -it
oruellaieflatvoethqautitceiaassco; he 'could
for such a change, -he would at once brinphgleisforward a prepared
j Lord ALTHORP rose to repinybt.ruat;YHaeseffcfearoemt.asmeneed by
sure for the separation of the church from the state He observing, that as one of the main objects he had in view in
(Lord J. Russell) acted on a totally different opinion. He bringing forward his propositien was to give satisfaction to
was of opinion that the church was conducive to the pro- the dissenters, he . was somewhat surprised at finding the
motion of morality, to the maintenance of good order, and way in which his propositions had been received by ;those
to the advancemeot of civilization ; and, moreover, that the who were understood to represent the interest of that class
doctrine and discipline of the church of England were con- in the house. It had been, received as though its effect
sonant with the feelings of the people of this country. would be to give no relief whatever, in point of principle,
• In consenting, therefore, to a measure affecting church- to the dissenters ; but did the house recollect thatithere
rates, he consented to it on a different principle from that was even at the present moment one class of the dissen-
of the hon. member for Middlesex and the • hon. and ters who ever acted on the very principle on which the
learned member for Colchester, who would prepare the measure was based. The Quakers, who would not con-
way for the abolition of the church establishment. -Ho tribute ,to any military expenditure, never refused when
(Lord John Russell), by removing the grievances in con- the army was raised to .supply their share of its expense, by
nection with the church, desired to maintain the establish- contributing in proportion to the general taxation of tho
ment, which, when adequately reformed, as he trusted it country. It was said that his plan would add to the tax-
would be before many years passed over, would, he be- ation of the country, but he denied the assertion in tofu.
licved, be conducive to the general Welfare "of the state. It would certainly depriVe Government of the' power of
The hon. and learned member for -Colchester stated it as remitting taxation to the extent of 250,000/., but, on the
his opinion, that if there was a church establishment, there other' hand, the abolition of church rates would reduce
must be certain doctrines laid down to which members of the existing taxation by a sum of 560,000/. The ob-
the state should conform. This was in effect saying that, jection raised to his plan by the Scotch representatives
in the opinion of the hon. and. learned member for Col- struck him, he must say, as much uncalled-for and ill-
- _there could not be a church establishment without- timed.. He really thought that when the .gentlemen from
_ intolerance. Certeiney_sucleevaaelK_Case• withethtchurch that part of the country complained ottbe _pipe es. tending
of Rome in former times. In his (Lord John Russell's) to make their constituent's contribute to the crectiofi and

1' - a kIUI '''B 7,T0 CT :1.-W l'l aITTQ 1' -
T,
.
repairing of theatlinrches, _they ought to rieoebt,,T:
frequently considerable,
_smut_smutliad been voted from
; eneral revenues of the country for the interests 00,,i
church of Scotland. (.Hear.) He was ready'to re ~i,
es tmgr
oob ye irtn4 oft thetiiieen.length.
establishedsthta.b iisilllme
ecmihi
tuu;rs ct h .p
all the grievances of which the dissenters could reasenau .1
complain,. but.. he was not ready to
_go__ to the extenart t',
destroying
member of that church ; he had always been a sin
1e.,,:i
of view, he meant'in a political point, he shouldhroegr.e,
it
any injury.were inflicted on .the church. ' He t 11
oi
merely in a religious point of vietibhuet isnheua dildffreerfnettp' l'ilj
essential to the existence of that church that places
worship should be provided for the celebration
and, though he was quite aware that he left to
.great ciesv '0..1
rofHeses was not
Ptroe.Pbee
..a,
private and voluntary contributions to effect, still he
round'
maintain the principle of his motion. Upon these p'° the
his Majesty's government had authorised hirn to brmgors it
question before the house. He hoped that out of
__°entgis
would not be received by the great body of the
this
in the mode in which it had been received in th's "taiolY
and, hoping that this would be the case, he ce,ro the
should persevere in his motion. With respect
i:oftlie
amendment which had been mentioned in the sPeec ee 03
hon. member for Worcester that hon. member, if :itifor
I not mistaken him, had said that he was ready
the motion, but only on the chance of his beine root
ifind some substitute afterwards. This was not theegi.o„el
on which he brought forward this question ; aed I, ' lott,
that the hon. member would not in the first instancebeieg
against the resolution With a view of a substituttee 0,
brought forward, but he trusted he would support tr,l3titete
tion in the first Instance and bring forward co 'no of I
that might suggest itself' to him during the progrrecospeY
measure. If the hon. member should bring I° ' itols
tnioonusoef
of
fhe
substitute, and be able to persuade the house that tiler
the better measure, he couldthe hou. tot 1
only assure of its rite
I
that he for one would be ready to adopt it. lord
la
Mr. HUME rose in explanation._: The noble mit 11
Commons church,
t wheno
the right hon. Secretary for the Colonial DePartnii each
led the house to suppose that he had advocated the tie och
thing. All he had said was that it would rot be"- or
0, to -t,
port buildings whilst there w - funds be Ole were ample, , he
the church itself which might be so employe°. `l„st t'
He only asked the house to wait until t. knew w, re
1.. • n.ht he ~,,,
funds were, and then to appropriate what Oh". I'
quired. It- would have been better if the moti°D °,ltbe
hon. member for Kirkcudbright had been canted vote ianwafyietthehepohbalide :0:en:Al:O.:
motion. postponed. If' the house rejected hi'atte.O.
Hums) amendment, he should move a further dedtos
went that the motion of the noble Lord be s°l'6'
~,r Pr
future day. - ow- .D
Mr. STANLEY said, that since the licm. me If fe,
Middlesex had charged his noble friend and lihrist' OP'
misrepresenting him, he would confeis that the 10 the'v
her had said that he did not, at present, advoea;, lic'l"
tire destruction of the church. (Hear; hear.) e feerli''
member had said that he did not believe that tht_ tgegij
of the country went, at resent, to such an ex ha v„,
boiastuesta:r_rai.t.tilleitadttßnhhouiatstt
gotai:tv,eitil
views
samefunds
edi
otfhutapti
nmhoenea.netthsht
aeienbhcoojusranbhj.ee -ride:lf:li::
r,
oeriert,..°,i''besiara.otbtri:l6,e.,:irih. t5l ti, '
what were his inclinations, should he be able t°llidalere
,
views into effect. When the lion. mernber ter i, seet`,se
ample for all purposes, he begged to remind hill',jiedl a
whole income or revenue of the church were etin,"" VIP
forwo tut hde
oolv presentv
eadmmolmoetnht.e
that the house mightunderstand
year to each clergyman. • ~,,t0
, ~.., ql.l.- jet
Mr. HUME
.had only said that these were 0.,`" la o'lo
what e ,
I' duty
oil
sh(Hoeualdr'feaenitlitahliasugdirtuli olei7:01$:
if his amendment should be rejected. (`` ''''' .e ' ,',Ar
cries of '' Question, question.") He should 01°`ii;to ' tie
it appearsto the committee inexpedient to ta-l'beii, revltil
sideration any proposition for charging the l''_ otabl,?tyt
with the maintenance of the edifices of toe
~,,,-„ to fey
church, until it was shown that the funds beloneepo'
church were not equal to meet these and other
its support." .'
The committee then divided— 06
For the motion . .............................
~ 43
For the amendment ........................ "
_iiiii.4
Majority ..... . ....................... .----,5,00 ''ilet
During our absence from the gallery a which sca:4
place on Mr. Hume's second amendment, " 00
put ; and, after a further debate, ' afoinat
Mr. WILKS moved that the committee dot.
s „oaie
the chairtomrathrierempoortitoporo.gr...e. .........
..................... . t.
..
~ql;3•°6
~
The .committee divided—
'. .Against it ....................... .. ...... . ....
.....'71.„7
Majority .t.•••••” . .021•••!. .• .. ese
The. original resolution was °then
recle'ihve.eahtoons,zueorrreoszed, and the ordered i
VESSELS BIL , •
...TONNAOE OF -.- -' - °sers' os'
The second reading of this bill, after,` e, few_ .'urn'
from Mr. P. THOMSON and Arr. • a.T. In
postponedtillaionday. -' ,A tyGif al, t
HERTFORP. BQII-`' - -.- tits bi,•
Mr..BERNAL moved the third
- .rd reading of 41
of propo,7
the purpose 1
~,
Colonel EYANS-:r(!se:Ibr: to the mot ell,
amendment to the bill, He objected ow
the large addition was to be made took Constitueoo
'sr
borough of ,Hertferel. _lt was prop to add ;;;
cultural district to the borough, and he had OW' I;
son assigned which could justify such a mode Of .p.,:ersde
He was convinced that adding agricultural Cilpi,to
rear.ort-:4°; t
sti,
boroughs would be found to be highly inconVeni,•,4so
also objected to the bill on the ground that it tlyety,
the door again to that species of influence whiPtt,-Aot
so much complained of in this case, and wilier eit.ral'
ostensible object of the bill to avoid, namlY, ta. ;e:
the ascendancy of the great landed proprietors•seje.c9
lint member concluded with proposing thatti-„aney of ,
mittee be appointed to reconsider the expe „10`r-ti, ape
lug a new houndary for the borough of Ilei;t„.„ but ~
The gallery was then cleared fora divi,' foal tpi,
took place. On our return tit the gallery:lo°ot hese'ob',l
Mr. •TENNYSOINI on his legs.—lle ha' hon. '`Vi‘.7
thing in the. original statement of the -t• iia o''',,,
eo as „pr
for Rochester on introducing that hike lOrn t°,l a: .01l
since taken place in the house, to io(ll,sftiertfer" kile.
make such a boundary to the borough ''' such an •lel 'd'
proposed in the
_bill. In point of fact, titieg I; pA,
would be a complete destruction of everY,ia 10'Hif';,%,
pendence in the borough. The fre men• a- f e,l'ile
e •t. o to
holders had not . been guiltyof those a' ' ' 1)r
s„raes,.„„e, A
which were stated in the bill ; on the con„,` ti;eitti; 'elle
specially exempted in the report of the ':oala rlite'
thought that the first clause of the the
'Attettfottf„rdi
sufficient. It would place the borough of, .i. It Ilio,l, a
footing contemplated by the Reform 131'004 ' :g'ie si
clearly shown by his hon. and gallant l'Aiitoti
pErveanposs)tetiruts,thaenrde Aheeremnuostt asralyy
egvrenomaidstidicerfotitos,
eafiri,llt/iietie
was proposed to the borough of ilertford•,`woPia• .ei,
1 To make such an addition to the boroug';iipterill,
place it under the control of the agricultur e to ';es. ',iv
did not object to add Hceldesdon. and -NiTg e pla',, acl:'
and give the ten-pound householders of thet3"ted;ol. it'gh
for members of Parliament. It had been set , hoP),„iiii
tion presented by the hon. baronet the tue';‘, tlia"„flvtD''
ingham that 18,000 acres had been added '' coer '., to/
by the Reform Bill. A noble duke, the e‘coitielgal4,ll
that neighbourhood, had made a great an. e 13ri0r,,,,L,
number of voters in the borough by dividiniiiti et, ~t`o,'
buildings,oeifsesl ajonr
of the
h epaHnmEed9Ehshlaa
dd
improper
agreedhthuu
silt madeeiOnNiVnmhtiOlvutticoeShiteleeStr,ehs stet e:di
asoii
thep:...alge:pc:lc
or;e:,lteith.l:4iop,wo
04,,:
however, not less than 32,000 acres Were to b'
to " ',the,
he would ask whether it would not open au° ,eici,illlo);
gallant colonel, and although he (Sir It' lie ( reV o'll'
vote for the motion of the gallant officer, '''tsel'A I',
could vote with the greatest consisteneY f°'. d 'o,,i''
vi-hich it was his (Sir R. Peel's) intent°l:: the itiJo'';
to the house. He was opposed to referrg>ii:›9e,
the consideration of ton committe,'„ t° ,ed it',"
of' fact, it would be postpng the ina,"'rengeb'taili "if
sion, when probably the house would.,,w the c 0 V,/
business of great importance, and tdh'iti on tioOdil
subject would be forgotten, and lier'°of carlesileo
it was, and those who had beenguilt `'hat he- sr, ,orl
88 (Be' Jet it,
escape punishment. ( Hear, hear. ) t ease' eaten 'el,,,i '
that an example sheuld be made in O'littries eL 65„., 4,4
The borough of', Hertford had its bonTr;.,,ers °Tit C 11' .0,,' r
the recommendation of the cornnaio`"They v. , 000 t,
boundaries under the Reform Pill; the hiltedls ':,),e'
new boundary for the borough, aIW a lear, 511" 0 ~1,1
upon to make a change. The liOn• ane,,tens'o,foro l'a,
(Air. Bernal) proposed that a great -f flePoy,,?;,
made to the boundary of the borough °,l that ites .' of
commended by the commissioners, .tl 01 lie 9,1 Y '
add a large contiguous district to it,',,,) tetiwie
rural district to the town. (liar, liee--0. the 1., Voi
vinced that the best mode of establisleenSerenire ,)iot
the agricultural or landed interest in °too, lisp 4,4,0 J
by. adding the proposed district to the
00 title, 910.111?
to destroying the character of the f ri,as 01 pure tot,1:1
votes in the committee on the Rel°- rict :eta e t-e
he did not think that the influence of pis ,:loc A(
be increased by adding large ruT'the b etarl,k
existed between the commercial an he pie ge 1+,4
boroughs. If they, wanted to destr°l 004: 00 ~,st
the landed interest in that house,itt etc,
oh of of 14,
mode of doing so than by throwit'g boroog 09 t,940i.
ing districts. (Hear, hear.) The first eios
bets
had three classes of voters. The ~.s was
_t to ~,,r
bitant housekeepers :. this class of voate'siocie4is 11'001
and four hundred in number. It w_fting. ;tile %.'it. lii,
and lot to constitute the right of "`' tote,' e 1;, fpo
stituency of the borough. The" there atalett'tey
130, he believed 124 or 125. Thenestittlenc/ hat' tosr
householders, which was the c°l at lieu'e et Pl'
Reform Bill. A committee of t 1 ,
coottec.io,
,i,
pointed to examine into the courts!:rt elt;s !,,,
voters, together with tilt' freetnen,,e_ocenrisien were T. 1,41,
these three classes of voters at
,_ nand lot `.fluids
IA bet
respect to those called the scot 1 eh note,
rat, P!,,,fttio tr ,
to , them, as they ought ra, , ro/..----- etc, 04
of voters occupying hou.sesnun, „iii,4, licir
that was not the exact name , 1/c ii ' km" '.
t'r
~...Est.o:3l-1, a tay_to ,show a ,
...ann2At,',4tfegt
tion ottlielir -colidat;artirsaid, Ina