The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-07 00:00:00

TOO: ion asked was such a modification or' the system as wetted
confer on the Irish and Scotch ercalic a- the same advantages
as were already enjoyed by the foreigner.
, Mr. M. GIBSON said he had been a member of the Com-
inittee of inquiry into the subject of sugar-planting and runs
and there certainly never was such a complication of evi-
dence as that produced upon this question. As to the evi-
dence
of the Chairman of the Excise, to which reference
'had been made, he must say, with every respect for the gen-
tleman alluded to, that he was always disposed to scrutinise
somewhat narrowly the evidence given by the head of any
revenue department, and he was also inclined to apply the
same scrutiny to the statements made by individuals repre-
senting
special interests, when they came to Parliament
praying an alteration of differential duties. The impression
made on his mind was, that on the whole 4d. was a fair dif-
ference to meet the disadvantages under which it was said
Irish spirits laboured as compared with colonial rum. But
he wis-ed to call attention to the great advantages which
this spirit interest now enjoyed in the United Kingdom. The
Hon. Member talked about •he fo-eigner, but what was the
position of Irish spirits as compared with foreign spirits?
On Irish spirits they had put a duty of 2s. Bd. a gallon ; but
how much had they put upon foreign spirits? 15s. a gallon
(Hear, hear.) He was not prepared to alter the present
system until there had been an inquiry and proper evidence
to show that the conclusions at which the Committee had
arrived were erroneous, and he wou d, therefore, give his
vote against the motion of the Ncble Lord.
11r. HUME said he was only anxious to see the Scotch
distiller put upon the sense footing as the rum distiller in
Jamaica, the Dutch gin distiller, or the importer of French
' brandy. Some Hon. Members on his side of the House
were now mightily alarmed with the bugaboo of protection
--(Hear, and,laughter.) The word must not be mentioned
now in he hearing of his Hon. Friends around him. This,
however, was no protection question. The object of the mu-
:time was to secure equality. The difference of duty charged
on foreign spirits has been alluded to, but that was a different
question. With these views he would certainly support the
• motion.
Sir G. CLERK reminded the Hon. Member for Montrose
of the difficulty which existed when the Hon. Member first
'''entered Parliament in permitting any intercourse between
•• the three different portions of the United Kingdom, with
reference to the trade in spirits. Intercourse was, however,
Ultimately permitted, to the great advantage of the couri'sy
in general. Superadded to this a privilege was granted
-which had never previously been conceded to any articles
chargeable with excise duties—namely, that they were
enabled to warehouse their goods for an indefinite period,
and -were not obliged to pay the duty on them till they were
takcei out for home consumption. It was, however, an es-
senedal part of the agreement entered into when the privi-
leg a was granted that the amount of du y should be charged
on the quantity ascertained when the spirits were manufac-
tured. Believing, therefore, that the arranaement made in
1 825 had been attended with very great benefit to that part
'al the United Kingdom with which he was more particularly
connected, he should be very sorry to disturb it, nor had he
/heard any argument which tended to shake his conviction.
'Oa these grounds, and after the best attention he could devote
to the subject, he had come to the conclusion that the Scotch
and Irish distillers had no fair claim to the favour which was
then demanded for them, and he should therefore vote against
the motion.
Colonel DUNNE said it was clear that the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had just addressed the House did not at
present represent a Scotch county. He (Colonel Dunne)
did not think it fair to levy the duty on an amount of
Bpi! its which did not in reality exist for the manufacturer
Of the article. It was not true that the Irish distillery trade
had prospered under the present system, for he found that
whille the quantity of Irish spirits manufactured in 1839
had amounted to 12,000,030 of gallons, the quantity manu-
factured in Ireland at present amounted to only 7,000,000 of
gall Dna.
Tine CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
ques.tioa was whether they should change the present mode
of assessing the duties on spirits, which was admitted by
all, persons conversant with the subject to be the best and
the safest mode that could be adopted. He believed that
if they were practically to re-establish that which had existed
Previously to the year 1825—namely, a different mode of
charging those duties in England, Ireland, and Scotland,
they would put an end to that interchange of spirits between
tbe three countries which had proved so beneficial to the
lush and Scotch distillers. He believed that the adoption
et: that proposal would open the door to a very considerable
am ount of frand. Under the present system the distiller paid
this duty on the quantity of spirit which he placed in the
banded warehouse, and it was for his advantage that no pore
Vein of that spirit should afterwards be abstracted. His in-
t erest, and the interest of the representatives of the Excise
ilepartment, were in fact identical. But if the proposal before
the House were adopted it would be the interest of the dis-
tiller to allow as large a quantity as possible of the spirit to
lbe abstracted from the bonded warehouse without the pay-
ment of the duty. He believed that if that arrangement were
adopted it would be necessary to impose very severe restric-
tions on the distillers, with the view to the prevention of
frauds upon the Excise. It was true that no Irish or Scotch
iiistiller had been examined before the Committee of 1848, but
:English distillers had been examined, and had given it as
'their opinion that the proposed change would be one attended
-with considerable danger to the revenue. He denied that
any undue advantage was given by the present system to the
colonial producer, as compared with the home:producer. In
order to prove that no such advantage- was given, it was
enough to state that there had been last year an increase in
the consumption of Irish and Scotch spirits to the amount of
600,000 gallons, and a decrease in the consumption of rum to
the amount of 140,000 gallons, as well as a decrease in the
consumption of foreign brandy to the amount of 300,000
gallons. The home producer had not th,aefore, it was clear,
been driven out of the market in consequence of the superior
advantages enjoyed by his colonial competitor. The Noble
Lord had told them that that was not at all a question of
revenue. But he differed from the Noble Lord upon that
point. It was perfectly obvious that if the duty were to be
1 evied on a lesser quantity of spirits there must be a reduc-
ftion in its amount, and that the revenue would proportion-
•ately suffer. Again, he should further observe, that if they
'were to grant that concession to the home 'producer they
grant some corresponding concession to the colonial
producer; and there again there would be a loss to the re-
venue. But if the revenue were to be ,iiminished by reduc-
tions of that description, it was clear that it would be im-
possible to effect that change in the window-tax, or that di-
minution of the income•tax, which many Honourable
Members were so anxious to promote. The House ought
to remember the division on the income -tax on Friday last;
and those Members who had then voted in the majority
ought to bear in mind that it would be impossible
to effect any diminution in the more objectionable taxes—if
taxes of a less objectionable character, such as that under
their consideration, were to be reduced. He asked the House
whether any excessive duty was paid by the Irish distiller?
The English distiller paid a duty of 7s. 101 per gallon on
the spirits which he produced; the Scotch distiller paid a
duty of 3s. Bd. per gallon; and the Irish distiller paid a
duty of only 2s. Bd. per gallon. That surely was an arrange-
ment of which the Irish distillers could not reasonably com-
plain. He appealed to those Members -who were ready to
maintain the public credir, and at the same time were desi-
rous of seeing reductions effected in the more objectionable
and unpopular items of taxation, not to assent to a motion
such as that then under their consideration.
Mr. NAPIER said he believed that the vote of Friday
last showed that the House would not maintain a duty at the
expense of a perpetual injustice. —(Hear, hear.) It was be-
cause he thought that motion a fair and a reasonable one
tbat he gave to it his support. Much stress had been laid
upon the evidence of the English distillers upon that point;
but he denied that the English distill irs were disinterested
parties in the case. Those distillers made use of boc ded
'warehouses to a very trifling extent. It appeared that while
be English distillers had only bonded 11,814 gallons of spl-
its, the Scotch distillers had bonded 7,000,000 of gallons,
sod the Irish distillers had bonded 6, 000,000 of gallons.
The fact was, that the English distillers, who were only eight
ea number, enjoyed a practical monopoly, and had no occa-
elan to put their spirits in bond Th e distillers of Ireland
'felt that they were subjected to an injustice in that case, and
they would never rest until that injustice was removed.
Mr. A. HASTIE supported the motion. There could be
no justification for imposing on distillers the necessity of
" paying a duty on that quantity of spirits which was lost by
leakage and evaporation. That quantity had been stated to
amount to not less than 2f per cent.
Lord. J. RUSSELL said he considereal that as a motion to
leduce the duty on Scotch and Irish spirits, because he
bought it was perfectly obvious that if the duties that were
originally fixed with a view to have them charged in the
Tay in which they were at present charged, and if the
:mount of spirits on which they were raised, were diminished,
• the duties themselves should necessarily decrease. It was
not true that any injustice was done to the Irish distillers in
:hat case, for while the Irish distillers paid a duty of
anly 2s. Bd. a gallon, colonial rum in :Ireland was paying a
luty of as., and French brandy and Spanish rum were pay-
_ing a duty of not less than 153. Therefore it is obvious
that we would, by adopting the motion, give an
advantage to the Scotch and Irish distiller over the planter
and the importer of foreign spirits. It therefore becomes
• t
.question of revenue; and this is not, in my
epnaion, a time when it can be reduced. 1 know no
sore proper limit to a duty upon spirits than that it should
sot be so high as to encourage fraud and illicit distillation.
that is not the case at present, anti if, as my Hon. Friend
has stated, Irish and Scotch spirits have increased in queue
lity, that is a reason, in my opinion, why I should not part
%with the revenue. I cannot, therefore
is am not prepared either to givmethu
esfa agreechtoume tomantheufmacottuiroenr,
an advantage over the colonial an
nor to give up the revenue which it involves.er
Noble Lord admits the justice of
Mr. DISRAELI —The
entertain, brought forward in a
the proposition, but he Bays it is 1,40.
s: Bid the Noble Lord, " it
Nrsvel(;,
admitbut as it is a rduc-
trasopmer
dmetaanuneirt.—m(iatst.e)
there is owes-
' Cott of ditty, we cannot take it.
This
is
aif relieving it that
ulannea
sion, but this is not exactly the
t.N.ya.ya the official
'Tort propose." - (Hear, hear.)
French and
irgument. The Noble Lord says the
xistillers must submit to taxation, while urh and Scotch
Spanish distillers should be exempt. That defyip Paid by
.he consumer ; but our ground is. that this
system which
that
Tosses on the producer.—(Cheers,) The
he Government upholds is this—to benefit, lhow4ich
lamer, and to leave the producer subject to con-
• siestriction,(Cheers.) I thought the Noble Lord aunrgelleits
a refuge in the
.alleagues were opposed to this tiolicy. —( Hear, hear,
Zoble Lord has found) The
fallacy that the
tade in spirits has increased. But, supposing it to be so,
it because the trade is prosperous that it should be
.timed?—(Cheers.) And if we can show that this prosperity
ii owing to other circumstances than that stated, is not this
afurther argument in favour of the motion of my Noble
friend?—(Hear, hear.) The mode of remedying this
grievance is easy—it is in the hands of the House Land I
trust that the decision of this night will, like that on Friday,
:how that the stereotyped nature of the routine of the public
offices is to receive another check in the interest of the
country.— (Cheers.)
The House then divided, when there appeared—
F0r159
the motion ••• ••• •••
Against it . • 159
The SPEAKER having, accordiiig to custom, voted for the
motion, the Government were consequently left in a minority
of one; the announcement of which was received with loud
cheers.

THE MINISTRY.
Mr. ROEBUCK then rose to refer to the extraordinary
circumstances in which the Government was placed.—( Heir.)
The House of Commons had now assumed to i self—he would
mot say without just cause—not only the supervision of the
Government, but also the actual Government itself. - (Cries
of "Oh," and " Hear.") He could well understand how it
should be that some disappointed followers of the Govern-
ment would object to this proposition ; but when he saw the
Government obliged to modify all the three modes or plans
of taxation which they had introduced, by the decision of
the House of Commons, he appealed to the Noble Lord him-
self, as a man brought up in constitutional principles—as a
Man educated in the idea that the House of Commons had a
Eupervising power over the Government, whether he was
now in a position An govern the country?—(Great cheer-
He (Mr. Roebuck) believed these were the prin-
ciples of the Noble Lord. Was the Noble Lord, therefore,
'wise, was he politic—he would say nothing as to the point of
honour—to retain the powers of Government in his hands
under such circumstances ?—(Cheers.) T'ne House should
understand what was going on in the country. At the mi..