The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-11 00:00:00

THE SUN 2 LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL il, 1856.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY).
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

THE SCOTCH JUDGES.

Lord CAMPBELL said that two of the Scotch judges
—the Lord Justice General and the Lord Justice-Clerk
—had been summoned to give evidence in a commit-
tee of their lordships' house now sitting upon the
appellate jurisdiction of the House of Lords, and be
wished to know where the oath was to be administered
to those learned judges. The English judges were sworn
on such occasions at the woolsack, but he was much
afrAid, unless a special motion was made for the occasion,
the Scotch judges would be sworn in Westminster-ball.
He wished, therefore, to move that the Lord Justice-
General and the Lord Justice-Clerk be sworn at trhe
woolsack.

Lord REDESDA LE said the Scotch judges were not
lia')le to be called to that house as the English judges
were, and he thought the oath should be administered
in the usual manner.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the Scotch
judges could be sworn at the woolsack without any no.
lation of the forms of the house.

The Earl of EGLINTON could see no difference
between the English and Sootch judges, and, therefore,
he thought they should be sworn in precisely the same
way in which those learned judges were.
Lord MONTEAGLE hoped that whatever rule was
adopted, it would be made applicable to tie Irish
judges. (Laughter.)
The motion was agreed to.

house to refuse its consent to the resolutions about to be
proposed by the noble lord t'-e member for London.
The house having resolved itself into a committee,
Lord J. RUSSELL, having so folly addressed the house
on a former occasion with reference to the subject, sim•
ply moved the first resolution, viz : —" That, in the
opinion of this house, it is expedient to extend, revise,
and consolidate the minutes of the Committee of Privy
Council on Education,"

Mr. HENLEY said his first itnpression was that these
resolutions should have been taken in detail ; but on
considering them he found it would be impossible to get
over the first resolution satisfactorily. He wanted to
know in what manner the merits of the Committee of
the Privy Council on E lucation should be extended, &c.,
and that being so vague he thought the house would not
consent to it. He should consider these reso'utions
as a whole, and, therefore, instead of asking the
house to negative the proposi:.ion, he should adopt
the safer course, that the chairman do now leave
the chair. This scheme was divided into six great
branches, that of inspection, the formation of dis
tricts, charitie4, religious teaching, and the mode of forcing
masters to pay those whom they employed under
a certain age. He objected to the general power of in-
spection these resolutions would give the inspectors, and
he doubted if many of the schools would submit to it.
He could consider nothing so inimical as this house to
pledge itself to what they could not afterwards
carry out. It was not to be expeeted that private
property would submit to public inspection. The people
of this country may be led, but they did not like to be
driven—(hear, hear)—and the sending of 80 sub-inspec-
tors over the country would be likely in his opinion to
frustrate the objects he had in view. If the object was
to get information, might it not be obtained in a more
extended manner by returns from the schools containing
full details of what they taught, &c. They would
thereby get that information earlier and better than
by Government Inspection, because there were many
who would not have it, and who shut their doors
against it. The next point was the power to be
given to the Privy Council behind the backs of
parties, and on the report of the sub-inspectors to
form districts. The inevitable result of the forma-
tion of districts would be in small parishes to
break up the existing parochial school system and
sever the clergymen from these schools. The
present valy of bringing clergymen to the schools
was to be found from Mr. Kennedy's report. Every
one must, however, be impressed with the necessity of
the religious element of these schools—(hear, hear)—
and he congratulated the noble lord with having
on this - occasion gone further in that direction than
on any former occasion. To destroy that mu-t have
a mischievous effect. The next point was the power to en-
large the power at present enjoyed by the Commissioners
of Charitable Trusts to apply the funds now useless or
injurious to the community to the education of the mid-
dling and poorer classes. He thought this subject
should have been dealt with substantially, and not in
these resolutions; The noble lor I, it should be recol-

lected, was one of the commissioners, and what
was done by them might come under the notice of this
house. Had that resolution been introduced by any
other person, he should have thought his object was
to have obtained the quasi sanction of that hodse
to some most important matters under their considera-
tidn. The hon. gentleman then referred to the Charity
Commissioners' report that had recently been published,
and analysed the manner in which the funds had been adini-
nistered bythem,and contended none of thesecharities were
useless or injurious, and ought not to be diverted fram
their original purpose. The next question was that of
the mode proposed for the settlement of the religious
differences existing on this important question, and
which he wished had not been introduced for their con-
sideration then, and on so vaguely worded a resolution;
It appeared to him (admitting they could not carry on
education without religious instruction) that by this
resolution they would be shutting out many children,
and the system would be brought down to a
secular one, which would be a great misfortune.
The rating system, as proposed, was bad, because the
powers for deciding that a district should be rated were
to be vested in the Committee of the Privy
Council, and it was equally objectionable to
give the powers of imposing the rate to the quarter
sessions. This branch of the scheme, he thought, would
produce as much discord and ill-feeling as existed now
in many districts with regard to Church rates, and
from sectarian feelings. He now came to the pro-
position that the employers of labour should send chil-
dren employed by them under a certain age to school,
and pay towards their education. These no doubt had
been founded on the factory system, but the two cases
were not strictly analogous. All the school
inspectors complained of children being removed from
school at a certain age, especially in 1854 and 1855, and
Mr. Cooke's report bore extensively on that subject. In
the years 1854 and 1855 high prices occurred, and he
thought it was that pressure on the poor that had in-
duced many of them to remove their children from school
to put them to remunerative laboir. The noble lord
had read to them. "some extracts from Mr. Coske's re
port, for the purpose of showing what the children ac-
quired in good schools up to 11 or 12 years of age. He
(Hr. Henley) found Mr. Cooke proposed that, in addi-
tion to reading, writing, and arithmetic, the children
should be taught the elementary knowledge of the Eng-
lish language, history, geography, physical science, and
the principles of political economy. All that was to be
acquired before the age of 12 years, so that what the
children were to get after that was a puzzle to him.
Now, the house sought to know what they were going
to do on this point, but the noble lord had thrown nu
light on this matter, except reading the extract from Mi.
Cooke's report. The Rev. Canon Moseley, another in-
spector, differed in opinion from Mr. Cooke as to the
kind of education the children should receive, and re-
commended the establishment of dame schools thr,.ugh-
out the cctuntry. As the character of the schools un-
proved, it was hoped, —he said, thit the children
would be sent to school more numerously, and longer
Dept there ; but that hope bad been disappointed, fir
parents reasoned in this way—th the teaching was Si)
good they could, in consequence, take the children from
school much earlier. Mr. Moseley added, that there wa,
a greater proportion of the people in this country who
were growing up able to read and write than formerly.
Another inspe;tor, Mr. Kennedy, said that the improve•
mint which ha 1 taken place in the schools in Lancashire
contrasted well with those abodes of filth called thena•

tional schools some 20 years ago. He (Mr. Henley)
had heard several persons of experience say that the
youths educated at the national schools 10 years ago did
not carry from them a disposition to continue the course
of study into which they had been there initiated. He
was asked the question whether the scholars in the higher
classes retrograded in their attainments and intelligence.
Mr. Kennedy went on to consider the question, which
was a most important one; and he spoke in reference
to the existing mode of teaching, and gave his opi-
nion upon it. lie said, " I confess that there is truth in
the statement that those who leave our nati, nal schools
deteriorate intellectually rather than improve; and I do
not think that this is satisfactorily accounted for merely
by the earlier ago at which they leave." Here the noble
lord and Mr. Kennedy were decidedly at issue. Mr.
Kennedy said that "we want, at least, three grades of
schools—infant. secondary, and third. In the first, the
children would be taught to read, write, and cipher, in
the second, to read and write well, the compound rules
of arithmetic, vulgar fractions, and to parse an English
sentence perfectly." He added that they would gain
these acquirements by about nine years of age ; and,
with respect to the third schools, he said, " I would have
regular lessons in four subjects only. In the morning
th boys would learn a language and drawing." What
language—whether Greek, Latin, French, or German—
was not stated ; " and in the afternoon arithmetic, or
mathematics, or music by notes." He (Mr. Henley)
doubted whether it would be satisfactory to the inanu•
facturing men of Lancashire—of which district Mr. Ken-
nedy was the school inspector—to be deprived of their
chi'dren's earnings at a time when there was the greatest
pinch to support the family, in order that they might
learn arithmetic, drawing, mathematics, or music. He
believed that there was no disinclination on the part of
the working classes to send their children to school, but
from their inability to lose the wages of those children.
The inspector who looked over the eastern part of Eng-
land, said, in parishes with a population not exceeding
460 persons, a dame's school would be sufficient. He
next came to the qUestion of recreation or amusement.
What was the kind ,of recreation which Mr. Mitchell 11
suggested ? He (Mr. Henley) confessed that if he had
not seen the suggestion he could hardly have believed
it. This gentleman having gone on some trip of duty
to France, became acquainted with the mode of
recreation pursued in some educational institution
there, and seemed to think it suitable to the people of
this country. Ile said—" It seems to be that more
weight might be given in teaching games, and providing
amusement in the schools. Many inconveniences
Might be prevented if there was a room provided
well lighted and furnished"— -not ve.,:th books, but—
" with, backgammon boards, chess, or draughts, or even
billiards or bagatelle tables." He (Mr. Henley) confessed
that, hen he looked at Mr. Cook's estimate of what chil-
dren might know up to 12 years of age, and when, he
found that Mr. Kennedy was of opinion that the present
mode of teacking was too professorial, he (Mr. Henley)
thought that-the system might be compared to a fire-
engine charged with 'instruction which was brought,to
play -upon the children. Some informatiGn might stick to
them just as a -fire-engine might wash clean, but he
thought that in both cases the process could ba more
effectually accomplished by gradual means. Mr. Ken-
nedy proposed to copfine the children to one or two dry
things—mathematics to conciliate Cambridge, and lan-
guage to conciliate his Oxf srd friends. It appeared from
the opinions of Mr. Cook and Mr._ Watkins that the
reason why children did not go to school was, because
their parents could not afford to lose the wages earned
by those children. The amount of these wages had been
differently estimated by different persons. The amount
of wages earned by children between the ages of 12 and
15 had been estimated at 3,000,000/. per annum. Mr.
Reltairs Stated that, in six counties, they amounted to
500,0001. a year. Mr. Cook said that he knew instances
in which boys of that age earned as much as Bs. a week.
If the plan of the noble lord were adopted, the inconve-
nience would be enormous to the employers of labour,
who would be compelled to have recourse to adult la-
bour; and he (Mr. Henley) was afraid that the younger
children would also be kept away from school, and thus
they would run an imminent risk of having a larger num-
ber of that most neglected class of children neither at
school nor at work. It was very well known, according
to the census, that there were many hundred thousand
children in this country who were neither at school nor
at work. The noble lord's plan would not touch those
children, although they were the very persons who most
required looking after. If they thrust themselves in this
way he was afraid that
-they might create a great reac-
tionary feeling on the subject of education, which would
be most unfortunate, as, at the present time, there was
every disposition on the part of the population generally
to value the blessings of instruction, The census COII-
-

taincd much information respecting the time during
which children attended school. Mr. Horace Mann, in
his volume, concluded that children of the upper and
middle classes remained at school fir about six years.
If that wero so, and children went to school at fire
years of age, and rein xined until 10 or 11, he asked what
right ha l they to say that they would interfere with a
strong band between the employer of laboar and the
free exerche of parental discretion, and compel the
children of the poor to be kept at school for a longer
period than even the children of the upper and middle
classes ? He hoped that in the observations which he
had made he bad spoken with all deference of the noble
lord (Lord J. Russell), for whose position and abilities
he entertained the highest respect. But be could not
sit down without calling the attention of the house,
more than he had done, to that unfortunate clam of
children who were neither at work nor at school. Neither
the plan of his right hon. friend (Sir J. Pakington) nor
the plan of the noble lord at all attempted to deal or grap-
pie with that question. He did not believe himself that
it was possible to grapple with it by any legislative
enactment. He believed its causes were so various,
differing in almost every part of every large town, that
it could only be remedied by piecemeal. He regretted
that the Privy Council had never directed its attention
to the subject. The house would recollect that on no
occasion since the commencement of these grants had
there been any grudging by Parliament of the means re-
quired by the Privy Council to aid education. He did
not believe if the Privy Council tried to deal with this
great evil in any way which they thought fit—to operate
upon that class which one inspector described as " the
Arab population of our cities "—that Parliament would
begrudge the necessary means. He trusted that the
Privy Council would endeavour to deal piecemeal with
' this subject, and he believed that Parliament would re.
juice to find that the Privy Council could say whether,
with respect to London, Manchester, or Leeds, where
there were thousands of poor children neither at work
nor at school, and engaged in all sorts of mischief—" We
have tried this scheme—we have got hold of and rescued
a number of these children ;" if such a declaration could
be made, Parliament would thank the Privy Council.
It was very probable that one plan might succeed in the
north, and another in the south. One might have more
of the religious element in it, and another less ; but if,
by any means, the Privy Council could get hold of these
children, he, for one, did not doubt that the house would
give them its cordial support and sufficient means. If
they attempted any wholesale plan they would fail.
The task must be undertaken by zealous and earnest
men, on a small scale. If it did not succeed, they would
at least have the consolation of knowing that they
bad endeavoured to meet 'a great necessity. No one
could deny that it was a more important and higher duty
to get bold of these children, abandoned practically and
morally by their parents, than to force people to keep
their children at school to the age of 15 years—it was a
more important and higher duty than that of, by forcible
means, endeavouring to improve the quality of education
itself. As soon as these poor children were taught their
duty towards God' nd man, they would seek and obtain
employment. By this means a great number would be
rescued--a great nucleus of our criminal population
would be removed, and thus a great benefit would be
conferred upon society at large. They must also never
forget that instruetion was not education. (Hear.) He
believed that the case of America, which had been quoted
by the noble lord, was conclusive on this subject. The
system commenced there with parties of every religious
stamp and character, and home influence in that coun-
try was much stronger than in England. They could
not pretend to say that the large class of the children of
the working classes had any home influence, or that they
could rely noon their parents, who had so hard a strug-
gle for an existence, to devote any time to their religious
teaching. And there were thousands of persons in large
towns to one minister of religion. The ministers of all
persuasions were equally earnest, active, and zealous ;
but, looking at their limited number, it was utterly im-
passible for them to supply the want of that which the
schools could not give. If they adopted a great sweep.
ing plan of this kind, depend upon it they would lose
that which formed the security and stability of this coun-
try, viz., sound religious teaching, which bad been con-
sidered essential in all our educational institutions, from
the universities down to the schools of the lowest grade.
The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving that the
ch.-di-man do now leave the chair.

Mr. ADDERLEY thought the course adopted by the
right lion. gentleman was not very courteous to the noble
lord who had paid so much attention to the question. He
could not sly he approved of all the resolutions proposed
by the noble lord, hut he hoped at least that the first of
them would be adopted. After much consideration, he
had come to the conclusion that, in the religious and poli-
tical condition of England, a national system of rating for
the purposes of education was impossible. He would,
therefore, put it to the noble lord whether, for the sake of
theoretical completeness, he would insist upon a scheme
which he could not carry ; and whether it would not be
better to improve and extend the present system, which,
though theoretically imperfect, had the advantage of prac-
tical efficiency ? But he could not consent to evade the
question, as the right hon. gentleman proposed, because
that would give the country an idea that the House of
Commons was indifferent to the question altogether.
Mr. ELLICE agreed with Mr. Henley in deprecating
the scheme of applying the charities of the country to the
specific purposes of education, and referred to certain cha-
rities existing in Coventry as an illustration of the evils
that would arise from such a system. He would vote for
the first resolution of the,noble lord, because he did not
wish it to go abroad that the house was indifferent to the
cause of education, but he would not pledge himself to the
others. He thought a compulsory system of education in
this country was impossible, and therefore the duty of
Parliament was to encourage as much as possible the vo-
lentary efforts which were now making in all directions.
Mr. LIDDELL eulogised the existing system of Privy
Council assistance, and did not think that in the present
temper of the country it was possible for the ingenuity of
statesmen to devise a better.

Sever hon. members, among whom was Mr. Warren,
here rose to address the house, but, in obedience to a gene-
ral cry of " New member," the others gave way.
Mr. WARREN said the question which had been intrc-
duced by the noble lord was one of the most difficult to
which the notice of Parliament could well be directed,
and the grave mid statesmanlike spirit in which the
noble lord had brought it forward was calculated to con-
ciliate the respect of the house as well as to produce a
very deep impression upon the country. (Hear, bear.)
The question of the propriety of establishing a compre-
hensive system of national education was beset with such
deeply-seated, widely-spread, and closely-connected diffi-
culties, that any one might be pardoned for approaching
it with great apprehension. ([sear.) If they viewed these
difficulties from a little distance, they appeared threaten-
ing, but if they went close to them their ramifications
seemed to be endless. Those were the best friends of the
great cause of popular education who were the most deeply
impressed with its difficulties after a patient survey of
them, and those were its greatest enemies who, on the one
hand, overlooked or undervalued them, or, on the other,
conjured up difficulties which did not really exist,
and, yielding too easily to the representation that they
were insurmountable, gave up their harassing efforts—for
harassing they were to an honest and energetic spirit—
with a kind of feeling of despair. There wore other enemies
of this great cause. They were men who with the best in-
tentione expected too much or too little from the State or
from the public—men who were so wedded to their own
opinions that they would rather see the ship founder than
not be allowed themselves to grasp the helm. (Flear.)
Lastly, there was a formidable class of enemies composed
of those who were actuated by unavowed and illicit mo-
tives, and who unjustly imputed such motives to others.
(Hear.) He should not presume to dwell upon the details
of the noble lord's resolutions. If he might be pardoned
for saying it, several observations made by preceding
speakers induced him to think that they had fallen into the
error of prematurely considering those details when the at-
tention of the house ought to be concentrated on the great
question of education itself. lie should therefore confine
himself to the question before thehouse, and make such ob-
servations of a general nature as appeared to him to come
fairly within the scope of the principle of the resolutions
proposed by the noble lord. Considering the failures of
the many attempts that had been formerly made to legis-
late upon this most difficult subject, ho was induced to
regard somewhat tenderly any efforts that were made to
cure past miscarriages; and, on that ground, he thought
that not only the noble lord but the right honourable
gentleman below him (Mr. Henley) were entitled to the
sympathy of the country. He could not, however, per-
suade himself, great as might be the difficulties which be-
set this subject, that they should be deliberately pro-
nounced by Parliament to be absolutely insurmountable.
He could not persuade himself that there was something so
exceptional in the character of this country, that its
idiosyncracy was such that that which had been done else-
where—that that which was most practicable in a free
State and in a despotic State, in a young State and in an
old State, in a great State and in a small State, in a monar •1
chiral State and in a republican State—could not be ac-
complished in this country. After the most dispassionate
and honest consideration which he had been able to give
to the arguments brought forward, differing as he did in
opinion from many of his friends on this subject, he felt
it his duty to express his sentiments frankly to the hous
(Hear.) He believed that if any one calmly addressed
himself to the exigencies of this question, he would come
to the conclusion, sooner or later, as he himself had done,
that the time had arrived forthe Legislature to assume a
more resolute attitude and a more imperative tone on this
subject than it had hitherto ventured to assume. (Hear.)
Public, education had hitherto been conducted and carried
on under the flag of the voluntary system. No one felt
more profoundly grateful than himself to those who had
exerted themselves on behalf of the voluntary system of
,education ; but he was thoroughly convinced that the task
which they had undertaken had proved too great for their
energies, and that it was not by private efforts that a
nation could be educated. At the same time, men of all
classes and of every shade of opinion were beginning to get
disconcerted anddisgusted as they took a retrospective view
of the vacillation which the Legislature had displayed on
this subject.,. The voluntary system had done admirably
wellin thiscountry. It would be ungenerous and presump-
tuous to question that fact. What he said was this—and in
saying it he thought he was only echoing what was felt by
the noble lord —let the friends of the voluntary system con-
tinue their disinterestedexertions ; let them meet the eforts
of a Christian State in a friendly spirit. There was no
wish or motive to supersede them, but rather a wish to
strengthen their hands and to give them the benefit of co-
operation where they were not sufficiently strong. lordT That
s
a,t
word " co-operation" contained the gist of the noble
resolution. Neither the noble lord (Lord J. Russell), nor
the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington), nor any one who
supported them in the great cause of education had for
moment entertained the idea of acting against the friends
of the voluntary system, er of superseding
to
them.make They
r
sought only to supply their deficiencies
and
o lh h exertionstar
y systemmore
believed
thatthe tresult.
hethecehllfd accomplish friends
their
o f the
v
object more effectually by themselves,
re. T
slatu let themhe List
neotgfeelaltuhree
least disconcerted by the
would not discourage them. (Cheers.) But he firmly
believed by whatever name it might be called—whether
they spoke of it as the voluntary system, or as the permis-
sive system— still it must perform a conspicuous part in ac-
complishing that which they had been so long seeking, but
which they had hitherto sought in vain. The banquet had
been prepared, and the fiat had gone forth—" Go ye into
the highways and byways and compel them to come in."
(Cheers.) He spoke not of a law of physical oompulsion ;
he spoke of moral compulsion, which should come in aid of
whatever legal compulsion might be Waged in the remoln-