The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-12 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY l2, 1833.

have gone, in endeavouring to eradicate these
evils, we have not given satisfaction to all ; but that prin-
ciple has always been based in endeavouring to take away
from the occupier of the soil those burdens that hear most
upon him. With respect to the Grand Jury presentments
my Right Honourable Friend will shortly present a
measure for the consideration of the House, and it will be
f it it to amender alter it as it may think proper.—(Cheers.)
With respect to the Church establishment, the tithes that
press upon Ireland, the internal tithes, are not great in
numbers, but they press heavily upon Ireland. I admit,
Sr, the pressure of taxation upon Ireland, which et pre-
sent acts most grievously upon one of its principal manu-
f ictures, namely, soap, which, though not taxed in Ireland,
but in England, yet from the mode in which the drawback
is paid in England, produces a most unjust pressure on
the people of Ireland. With respect to that, Sir, I
have a remedial plan to offer to the House. I can assure
the House that whatever cin be done, shall be done for
Ireland. We have always shewn our inclination to do
so and ever will ; but the great cause of the evils
of Ireland, Sir, is its want of capital.—(Hear,
hear.) That, Sir, can only be remedied by the
preservation of peace and goad order, by which means
people will be encouraged to lay out their capital in the
country.—(Loud cheering.) Now, Sir, the only other
point to which I alluded at that time was, the transactions
between landlord and tenant. This must be considered as
without the range of legislative enactments, but at that
time great complaints were made of the interpretation put
upon contracts between landlords and tenants by the Courts
of Justice. Several witnesses, Sir, who appeared to be
acquainted with the state of Ireland, were of that opinion.
I now come to the question of the Church Establishment
of Ireland, of which it might be said, that, like all
other important questions, the longer it was delayed,
the more would it he expected that the remedy
should be which it would be proposed to have pro
vided.—(Hear, hear, bear.) Upon this question
many others had arisen, and of these not the least was
the exaggerated difference between the amount of the
population of Ireland, and that of the Church E,tit-
blishieent. I confess that I believe I have ex-
aggerated that difference in my own mind. The
first part of the revenues of the Church of Ireland
comprises the revenues attached to the bishoprics. lam
sure I shall surprise the House, after what they have heard
upon this subject, when I state that by the returns we
have had of the actual revenues of the Bishops,
the net amount of the sees is only 130,000/. a
year. The gross amount is 150,000/, but the net
amount is only 130,000/. It is certainly true that a very
large tract of country belongs to the Bishops of Ireland,
hut, Sir, the Bishops have not themselves the beneficial
interest in that value. Those, in fact, to whom they

lease the I Ind, have five•sixths of the value. The
amount of the real value is somewhat about
600,0001., hut obviously the Bishops do not receive more
than 100,000/. This, I apprehend, partly accounts for
the exaggerated ideas which Gentlemen entertain of the
ecclesiastical revenues in Ireland. With respect to the
deans and chapters, their whole incomes amount to
23,600/. a year, but the necessary expenditure, before it
can be divided, amounts to 21,0001., being little more than
a surplus of 2,000/. a-year. With respect to the value
of the other benefices in Ireland I am not prepared to
give any very accurate statement. The Church com-
mission has called for returns, but from a number of these
no returns have been made. It is, therefore, only from a
calculation, founded upon the average of the returns we
now have before us, that we can arrive at any proper
estimate. The whole of the other benefices amount to
1,401 ; those from which we have received returns
amount to 1,149, which leave 378. The whole amount

of the revenue will be 580,000/. a year ; but we may
take it ac 600,0001., and in that we do not go below the
fair calculation. According then to the statement I have
wade, the Bishops receive 130,0001. ; and the

Deans and Chapte s, not the holder) of other benefices
receive 2,0001., and the amount of the other benefices
is 600,0001., so that the total revenue of the Church of
Ireland, applicable to its support and maintenance, does not

exceed 800,000/. I have wished, Sir, to go into
this detail, and to press it particularly upon the
House, in consequence of the exaggeration that prevails,

and which might prevent Gentlemen from coming
calmly to the consideration of the subject. Now I appre-
hend that whatever difference of opinion there may be as
to the right of Parliament to interfere with this property,
all those who think it has a right to take a part of that
property and apply it to the State, as well as those
who think Parliament has no such right, all will
agree that the first claim upon the property is
from the Church itself, if the Church Establishment is
to be maintained at all. If not, those who think
so will not agree with me. It will, however,
be generally agreed that the revenues of the Church, as
at present exis.ing, ought to be applied to the necessary
purposes for supporting and giving to the people the benefit
of the Church. Now Sir, are these purposes at present
provided for as they should tie? Sir, we have heard
statements of benefices where there is no duty performed,
or where there is no church, and where there is
no resident minister; but is it not perfectly well
known that in many parts of Ireland where Pro.
testants ought to be supplied with the benefits of the
establishaneut, that there is a difficulty in its due perform-
ance, and that while the clergy have large emoluments,
many of the working industrious class are very inade-
quately provided, and are in very distressing circumstances.
Theme are nearly 200 livings in Ireland of less than 1001.
s year. While this is the ease—where there is a Pro-
testant congregation, and duties required of the clergyman,
you cannot fairly say that the clergy have not a property
in the Church. To the purpose of supplying the
deficiency there his been a grant made out of the
board of first fruits. This hoard is different
in England, from what it is in Ireland. In
Ireland its first object is the repair of the churches, but it,
England and Ireland, in consequence of the lapse of time,
what is called the first fruits of livings or benefices, does
nut amount to any thing like what they ought to be.—
(Hear, hear.) It was a mere pretence, and, in fact, they
may be almost said, not to exist. It is, therefore,
proposed to abolish the Board of First Fruits, and the
system altogether ; and in lieu of that, it has several
times been suggested in the House that a new valuation
should take place. But the opinion of the law officers
of the Crown is that we cannot make a new valuation
without an Act of Parliament. We think it best to
get rid of the Board of First Fruits, and the first
ruits themselves, and in lieu of them to make an
annual reduction from the amount of benefices. Those which
are under 2001. we do not propose to reduce. From those
from 2001. to 5001, we propose to take five per cent. From
5001. to SOU seven per cent. From 8001. to 1,2001. ten per
cent. And from all the latter sums fifteen per cent. This
we give on account, taking into consideration those that
pay no per centage of 42,0001. I should say, that
when persons went voluntarily to work on differe:it
livings, they ought to be considered as one. For instance,
if a person has one of 7001, , and another of 300!., it should
be taxed as upon 1,0001., namely at 10 per cent. instead
of the two sums of 7 and 5 per cent. In the proposition
are included Deans, and Chapters, and Prebendaries. But
it is evident that if this ratio should go on and affect the
Bishops in the same proportion, they would be taxed
unfairly, because the expenses of the Bishops exceed
in proportion those of the private clergy, and it would
not be fair to commence with the lowest sees with a re-
duction of 15 per cent., and to increase by the enormous
per centage to the lightest annual amount. It is proper
therefore to make a difference in the scale. We propose,
that from all sees below 4,00 e a year, 5 per cent. be de-
ducted; all below 6,0001. a year, 7 per cent. ; all below
10,0001. a year 10 per cent., and all above that 15 per cent.
I am aware that in making the propositi.n I do, I go at
least the whole !ength which justice would justify the
in going; but when I consider the nominal amount of
first fruits that have hitherto existed, and when I consider
the great advantage it must he to the Church to submit to a
sacrifice in order that the clergy may secure to themselves the
affections of the people, I do feel the strongest hope that we
shall not meet with any strong opposition from them upon this
point. I will say more, I have reason to hope that we shall
not.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, there is another circumstance
which, as it appears to rite, is immediately applicable to
the measure which we have in contemplation. It was
statad the other night by an Hon. Member, (I forget
who), he reminded me that, at the time the arpointinent
of the present Bishop of Derry took place, he received
that appointment subject to a reduction in his
income, whenever any general arrangement should take
place with respect to the Church. Sir, that was correct.
With respect to the revenues of the See of Derry, the
I.etitest misapprehension prevails. The riv,i,ue of the
Bishop of Derry amounts to 12,1591. a-year. It is pro-
posed, in consequence of the, grangeoaent we ado at the

period to which I have referred to reduce this amount to
8000/.—(Hear,)—of course leaving the Bishop of Derry
subj et also tai' the reduction I have before mentioned which
upon 8,000/. will he 8001. ; that is to say, in other
words, we at once reduce the income of the Bishop
of Derry to 7,200/.—(Lou,l and continued cheering.)
Now, Sir, I have stated what are the immediate
means that will be placed at the disposal of the House,
by the plans we are bringing forward. Before Igo
into the temporalities of the Church, I will state
the object with which the Board will be appointed ;
and I beg to say we intend, though it will, as it neces-
sarily must be, be composed of members of the Church
of England—we intend that every means shall be taken
to render it as independent as possible. That Board
will have placed at its disposal the management and distri-
bution of the sums I have stated, together with such other
sums as may fall in under the proposition I have to make.
The House will perceive that the (Pities which will be imposed
upon the commissioners in whose hands these funds will be
placed,will not be light. I think the House will agree with me,that
wherever you have a church establishment, it is the duty of the
Legislature to provide the means of religious worship,
both as regards the edifices in which it is to be performed,
and the expense of performing it.—(Hear, bear.)
Now in Ireland great complaints had been
made, and I admit they are well founded, of the
mode in which this obligation of the state to
maletaiw religious edifices has been performed. The rate
levied for that purpose in Ireland has been for the most
part paid by Catholics, while the management of this
expenditure has bean placed under the direction of a
Protestant vestry. (Hear, hear.) This is a double
grievance; but the Church rate, I think it will be ac-
knowledged, is quite of a different nature from tithes.—
( Hear, hear.) Tithe is a burden upon land, which the
party who buys land knows his estate has been
subjected to, and will be subjected to.—(Hear, hear.)
In fact, the tithes of an estate are a part of its produce
which do not belong to the owner of the rest. A church
rate is of a diferent nature. It varies according to
the manner in which it is levied and applied. By abuse and
mismanagement it may be increased to an immense ex-
tent, while by frugal management it may be as much dimi-
nished. It has been, therefore, a particular grievance upon
the Roman Catholics, that they should have to contribute
to Church rates over which they hid no controul. Having
stated this, the House will not be surprised to hear, that
it is the determination of Government to abolish Church
rates altogether.—(Loud cheers, which continued for
some time,)—We estimate the annual amount of Church
ratesin Ireland to he between 60 and 70,0001 Now, as far
as we can calculate the means which I have stated as to be
placed at the disposal of the Commissioners will be only about
60,0001. This is certainly a smaller amount than that now de-
voted to church repairs, but from all I have heard, I am satisfied
this is an expense which may be most materially dimi-
nished by proper management, and I have not a doubt
that this sum will be found sufficient. The Commissioners, I
have said before, will have a most laborious duty to perform
—for the expenditure which will come under review before
them, must occasion an examination of numerous accounts.
The other object of this fund, as it accumulates, I shall
presently show it will do, will be the augmentation of small
livings, and the building of glebe houses where requit7ed,
under provisions similar to those now in force in England.
But, Sir,'" as churches :gay i;)e built when they are not
required, it is intended to be provided that they shall not
have the power of commencing the building of new
churches unless a certain sum shall have been raised
by private individuals, or a certain amount of pew rents
have been subscribed for.—(Cheers.) The commis-
sioners, of course, wiil have liberty to lay before Parlia-
ment all their proceedings. I think, sir, that the
means placed at the disposal of the Commissioners
will be sufficient to cover the amount of the present
Church cess. But, sir, as there are many other mat-
ters that are very important to the well•being of the
Church of Ireland, it may be said that what I have stated
goes but a little way, and I will now state to the House
the prospective alterations which are intended to be
effected at the death of the present incumbents.
At present, Sir, the revenue of the Primate of Ire-
land, about which considerable exaggerations have gone
forth amounts to about 14,4221. Now it is proposed
that this should be reduced at the expiration of the pre-
sent incumbents to 10,000/. a-year, that all such benefices
should be reduced 10 per cent.—(Cheers.) With respect
to the Dean and Chapter, whenever they are un-
connected with the cure of souls the proposition of
His Majesty's Government is to abolish them altogether,
or to attach them to a cure of souls, so as to make them
more efficient, but those Deans and Chapters which can he
looked upon in no other light but as sinecures, will be
abolished altogether. Another point to which I must also
call the attention of the House, and in which there has
also been, perhaps, exaggerations, is one most injurious to
the Church of Ireland. I mean, Sir, thane livings, in
which no duty is or can be performed.—(Hear.) It is
proposed, Sir, with respect to those livings, in which no
ditty has been performed for the last three years, to
give the discretion to the Commissioners to suspend the
re-apposntment of such Commissioners to such livings, lam
sure, Sir, that the House will at once see the reasoo why I
have named these years previous, because if it had been for a
shortor period, it is very likely some course would have been
pursued, in order to endeavour to show that duty had
been performed in the living since the period named.
With respect to the number of the Bishops—(Loud
cries of " Hear")—as compared with the Church
of England population of Ireland, I do not con-
sider that to be the fair mode of stating the question.
Because the duties of those Bishops do not depend solely
on the number of souls in their respective diocese ; but
must so great a measure depend on the space
over which their visitations and other duties bad to
be performed. It had been contended that 22 Bishops
were more than adequate to these duties. Now,
Sir, I admit that twenty-two is a number more
than necessary.—(Loud cheers.) It is then for us
to examine how many may be reduced, after the
decease of the present holders of sees, so that the duties of the
Established Church might be performed fully and effici-
ently ; and, with the best considerations that could
be brought to the subject, we think that the number may
be fairly reduced by ten bishops—(Loud and continued cheers
re-echoed by Mr. O'Connell.)—These bishoprics were;
Drumore, Kilmore, ltaphone, Killaloe, Clcofelt, Elphin,
Cork, Kildare, Ossory, and Waterford, of these the latter
was at present vacant, and would remain so.—(Cheers.)
The duties of these Sees would be performed by their
being annexed to others—for instance, Kildare to
Dublin, arid Waterford to Cashel, and the Archbishopric
of Tuain would be reduced to a Bishop's See.—
Sir, I have stated to the House that the Church reveuues
of Ireland amount at present to 130,000/. and 30,000
will be deducted off those when the plan comes into tzecu-
tion which we now propose.—(Hear, hear, hear.) I
believe 1 have now stated all the sums which will
fail under the cognisance t f the Commissioners,
but Sir, there is another thing to be considered.
Gentlemen who may feel the strongest upon
the injustice and the want even of power of Parliament
to interfere with the revenues of the Church, will agree
with this, that if by any Act of the Legislature a new
uilue is given to any property of the Church, the pro-
duce of that new value does not belong to the
Church, because it is an acquisition without which
any act of the Legislature, and whatever belongs to that
new value may he appropriated immediately to the use
of the State.—(Hear, hear, and cheers. ) It is
well known that the Bishops have no right to grant
longer leases than for twenty-one years. In practice, I
believe, those leases are almost annually renewed, and a
fine, together with the rent, may be said to form the
ein-
come of the Bishop. As I understand it, the value of a
Bishop's lease, in Ireland, is twelve and a half years' pur-
opossession
pr
e leases
may
persons )
r,
s oo are
run
during
pur-
chase. The tenants are under this disadvantage, that,
though
in the power of the Bishops, and has been done, that a
y
rliptfieei
ty
whole
againstwbi
eh they mi
o fhistheir
h et
iern alnvay e
tessi andan
and
thereby have
beenungin Bishop
h i
be altogether without remedy.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
They
i are also placed in this situation, that if the
deprive
s . renewed
en ewed every year, still it is
his
o p
land s much approved they are liable to an increased
line, thereby themselves losing the benefit of the improve-
men,. Sir, it is proposed not in the least to diminish the
incomes of the Bishops in this way, but to enable any tenant
who thinks it right to demand, upon certain terms which I
will state immediately, that he shall have a perpetuity in
the land which he now rents of the Bishop, at a
fixed corn rent.—(Hear, hear.) Now, upon inquiry,
we find that upon those terms the value of such a lease,
—a perpetual lease at a fixed corn rent would be twenty
years purchase instead of twelve and a half.—(Hear.)
but he must pay to acquire this privilege 7d per cent. It is
proposed that those of the tenents of the Bishop, who
chose to claim it, that their tenure Ovoid be made per.