The Sun.
London, England, 1851-09-02 00:00:00

And they amount to about 3,300 ?—Yes.
You cannot illustrate any other matter, with re-
ference to those 400 claims which have come perso-
nally before you ?—lt does not occur to me to do so
at present ; the class of cases which I have stated is
the most common, I think ; I dare say there may be
other cases which are brought before me ; none occur
to me just now.
And, with the exception of occasionally being called
in as an umpire, to assist the other two Comtiaissioners,
you do not attend the board at all?—No.
You yourself are responsible, though the work is
done in the name of the board, for that branch of the
business of the office ?—Yes, I should be so, except-
ing in cases of charities, and there we require the sig-
nature of two special Commissioners.
With regard to charities, you say in those cases the
signatures of two of the Commissioners are requisite P
—To the order ; the board do not choose to sign the
order without having the signatures of two Commis-
sioners to it ; the sums, of course, being very much
larger.
In point of fact, are these charity matters investi-
gated by two Commissioners, or are they investigated
by you ?—They are investigated by me.
And the other Comne4oner ei on the faith
of your inveetigattont-e-TiCeees
Do you know the amountsrep.ait in charity cases ?
—24,9601. ,r
With reference to 69,000 claims which you have
spoken of, I think you said that a little more than
70.0001. has been repaid ?-73,0001.
Do you know how many of the 69,000 claims were
disallowed P—l have not got that, but it appears that
69,000 cl aims were received, and 54,000 orders, or
warrants of repayment, were issued; that would give
53,000 rejected.
Therefore the 73,000/. may be taken as paid upon
the 54,000 claims ?—Yes.
Mr. J. Wresos—With regard to claims upon stock,
when a person makes a claim for a return of income-
tax paid upon stock, on the ground that his income is
under 1501., you refer to the bankbook, as a test of
his claim ?—Yee.
Have you any test at all as to whether he has in-
come from other sources ?—lle is obliged to state that.
Is he obliged to state that upon oath ?—Not upon
oath ; he states it to the satisfaction of the surveyor.
The surveyor of the district in which he lives ?
Yes; if he did not prove to the satisfaction of the
surveyor that his income was under hcOl. a year, the
surveyor of course would not certify his claim; we
never allow a claim except it is certified by the sur-
veyor.
Therefore if he was a man carrying on a small
business, or had any other ostensible means of income,
the surveyor would be usually aware of it.
Mr. T. BARING—What salaries do the clerks get
who decide these claims ?—The general salary is
about 1001. a year.
Lord 11. -1/./NE—./ suppose the chief clerk to whom
reference is made by the inferior'clerks has a higher
salary ?—The chief clerk has a salary of 2001. a year.
There is one other clerk, I thinl4 with a salary of
1301. Tile rest have 100/.
CLIAIRMAN--,-YOll have stated that the number of
applications for rspayment was so great that unless
you had adopted the mode of sending notice to the
Bank not to make the deductions, you could not
carry on the business. Can ycu state what is the
greatest number of applicants in any one year; you
have said that 69,000 was the number in 1849; was
it at any time larger cannot positively state, but
I should think that some years it was larger.
It has been stated to the Committee that the num-
bers were so great that it was impossible, without
having recourse to the Bank, to have attended to all
the applications for exemption ?—lt could not have
been done without a very great increase of force—a
very increased number of clerks.
But you do not consider that it would have been
impossible ; you might have had an establishment
adequate to that amount ?—Yes.
Do you recollect the greatest number in any one
year ?—No ; I do not think they ever varied so much.
I should say the greatest number probably was not
above 72,000 or 73,000. I have not got it upon paper,
and I cannot trust exactly to my memory.
Does your memory serve you whether you ever
sent to the India House any list, that they might
do as the Bank of England does ?—Lists are sent to
the India House, the Bank, the South Sea House,
and the National Debt Office.
To all those offices which make the deduction you
send lists ?—Yes.
Can you state what number you send to the India
House and the South Sea House separately ?
Mr. T. BARING—Does the Bank send copies of all
the dividends and names of parties to whom divi-
dends are payable P—All upwards of Si., I think, or
something of that sort.
Suppose a domestic servant has dividends coming
from the Bank to the extent of 201. a year, what
means does he take to obtain an exemption ; does he
apply to the local surveyor ; he is not in connexion
with the local surveyor ; he has no form left with him
as a matter of course. Is it his duty to apply to the
local surveyor, or to obtain a certificate, which he
can forward to you ?—The assessor of the parish
ought to be provided with such forms, but in many
cases he is not.
The assessors leave forms at each house ?—Yes.
That form is for the occupier of the house and not
for his domestic servants, but an immense number—
thousands of domestic servants, now hold funded pro-
perty of small amounts; I want to know what means
those domestic servants or clerks, or any persons who
are not the holders of houses, have of acquiring the
certificate which you require before the exemption is
allowed ?—The party may either have it from the
surveyor of the district, or if he choose to apply to
cur office at Somerset-house we should send it to him ;
but the most regular way would be by an application
to the surveyor of the district.
If he applied to the surveyor of the district would
it then become the duty of the surveyor of the district
to make any inquiry whether lie had any other pro-
perty in other places that might raise his income ?
Certainly; before the surveyor put his name to it it
would be quite incumbent upon him to satisfy himselt
that the claimant was within the limit cf the exernp,
tions.

If he did not raise it above 1501. a year he would
have no object in the concealment, because he would
claim the exemption upon the whole ?—Yes.
But the case to which I apply is where his property
in other respects would raise his income above 1501. a
year, and where ho is claiming exemption of stock, on
the ground that he has less than 1501. a year ?—That
is a case which could be only left to the secretary of
the surveyor.
CHAIRMAN—Of those 69,000 claims which you
have mentioned, can you say what proportion came
from the metropolis, and what proportion came from
the country. Is there any classification of that kind
in your office ?—No, there is not • it might be arrived
at, perhaps, by looking into the lists of orders, and
ascertaining what number of orders ore made payable
by the Receiver-General, and what by the country
receivers, but it would require a good deal of investi-
gation to find that out.
Do you not think that the difficulty attending the
certificates, and the applications from people at a
distance, prevents a great many in the country from
applying, who, if they were present in London, would
make the application ?—lt is possible that that may
be the case, but I think that, throughout the country,
now, people's knowledge of the proper mode of appli-
cation hag very much increased.
Do you mean to say that the number of applications
for repayment are more every year than they were ?
—No, I do not think they are more, but there is a
greater facility, I think.
Of the modes of recovery ?—Of the modes of re•
covery.
Have any cases come to your knowledge where
these applications have been rejected on the ground
of fraud ?—Many applications have been rejected, but
I should say that the greater part of them were not
rejected on the ground of fraud, but on the ground
of their having been made on an erroneous principle,
people having supposed themselves exempt when they
were not ; considering the enormous number of
claims which have gone through the office, the in-
stances of fraud which have been discovered are very
few.

You stated that there were some cases in which a
reference was made to the solicitor ; do ycu make
reference to him in any case unless you intend to sue
for penalties ?—Yes ; we do.
Of what nature ?—There are some clauses in the
Act, the explanation of which is somewhat uncertain,
and in those cases we refer to him more especially
about minors. There was a great diversity of opinion
as to how far minors were entitled to exemption, and
it became so subtle a question that I really did not
f:el myself quite equal to the decision, and therefore
I directed that in those cases the opinion of the soli-
citor should be taken.
Are they many in the course of the year ?—They
are numerous.
Lord H. VANE—Can you state the ground upon
which they claim exemption P—As being minors.
CHAIRMAN—Are there any other cases which you
refer for the opinion of the solicitor ?—Yery few
others; the cases of minors are the principal; there
is a difference as to vested interests, cases where
minors have vested interests, and where their interests
are not vested ; in one case we allow the deduction,
and in the other not ; but the question as to vested
interest is a completely legal one, which I, not being
a lawyer, do not feel myself qualified to judge upon.
Mr. J. WlLsoN—You are aware that in the Act
there i 3 a power for persons who are charged under
Schedule D at the end of the year to claim a return
of any tax to which they may have been assessed, or
which they may have paid, provided they find that
their income at the close of the year is less than
what they have returned as having been the probable
income, based upon the three preceding years' profits ?
—I am quite aware of that.
Can you give the Committee any idea as to the ex-
tent to which those claims have been made ?—No, I
cannot, because they have not passed through my
hands; they pass through the hands of the Commis-
missioners for General Purposes.
Mr. llEssaey—Are you aware of the practice of
the other two Commissioners of the board of which
you form a part with reference to claims going or
not in the first instance to the clerks in their branch
of the office ?—No ; I do not know anything of their
practice. From the very first we never have acted es
a board, except accidentally, as I have stated. From
the very beginning of the Act this exemption branch
became so large that it was thought quite enough to
occupy (we person's time, which it certainly is.
De you act under the sanction of an oath rs a
Special Commissioner ?—Yes.
What is the nature of that oath ?—The oath is ap-
pended to the Act :—" I will truly, faithfully, impar-
tially, and honestly, according to the best of my skill
and knowlege, execute the powers and authorities
vested in me by on Act passed in such a year, and
that I will exercise the powers entrusted to me by the
said Act in such manner only as shall appear to me
necessary for the due execution of the same, and that
I will judge and determine upon all matters and things
which shall be brought before me under the said Act,
without favour, affection, or malice, and that I will
not disclose any particular contained in any schedule
or statement delivered with respect to any duties
charged under the provisions and regulations relating
to Schedule (D) of the said Act, or any evidence or
answer given by any person who shall make affidavit,
deposition," and so on, " excepting in such cases and
to such persons only who shall be sworn to the due
execution of this Act, and where it shall be necessary
for the purpose of the said Act, or to the COMM;9-
sinners of Stamps and Taxes, or in order to or in
the course of a prosecution for perjury committed in
such examination," and so on.
That part of the Act which relates to disclosing
applies to Schedule (D) I suppose almost entirely?—
Almost entirely.
Mr. DISRAELI—The twenty-nine clerks do not
act of course under an oath ?—No.

Generally speaking is there anything known to
you in the transaction of those affairs to which you
have alluded which is unknown to the 29 ckrks ?
Very little.
Are the lists of dividends which are furnished by
the Bank of England seen by these clerks I)—Not by
all of them.

By how many ?—Four ; there are four specially
appointed to that service, one of whom is a Bank clerk.
Are those four clerks at a salary of 1001. a year ?
Except the senior one ; he has a much larger salary.
The one who is a Bank clerk ?—Yes; but those
persons who were selected for that office were such as
I considered the most trustworthy men among the
rest of the clerks.
CUAIRMAN—Can you state the salary of those who
are trustworthy ?—Their salary is the same, 1001. a
year.
But they are under no oath ?—They are under no
oath.
Do they retain possession of the copies of the Bank
books ?—The head clerk is considered responsible for
those, and they are kept in a private room under his
lock and key.
In the office ?—ln the office, except when he is
there or when the books are in use.
Do you get a list after every dividend that has been
made ?—Yes.
Mr. J. WiLsoN—These Bank returns which you
have sent to you disclose nothing to your clerks
through whose hands they may pass that is not dis-
closed to all the clerks in the Bank of England, who
are in that department ?—No.
Tne clerks in the Bank of Ragland, therefore, have
the Fame knowledge of the circumstances disclosed
by those accounts as the four clerks in your eke to
whom you have referred ?—Yes.
Would it not answer all your purposes, under this
Act of Porliament, if the Bank confined their returns
to you of all the incomes under 1501. a year, and did
not return any of those incomes above 1501. a yearl