The Sun.
London, England, 1834-11-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 1834.

foundation ; inasmuch as, if the Duke of Wellington
had been prepared with a list of colleagues, he needed
not to wait for Sir Robert Peel, or to have received
(pro tempore) into his own hands the Seals of the three
Secretaries of State. In point of fact no appointment
has taken piece, except that of the Duke of Welling-
ton, who has kissed hands as First Lord of the Trea-
sury, and has been sworn in as Secretary for the Home
Dapartment. His Grace also holds the seals of the
Foreign and Colonial Departments, and will, it is un-
derstood, conduct the Government by means of several
Under-Secretaries till the arrival in England of Sir
Robert Peel. The Great Seal will also be held tem-
porarily by Lord Lyndhurst with his office of Chief
Baron, till the final arrangements which are to be made
in concert with the Right Hon. Baronet. It is under-
stood that the sharp practice, to which we referred
yesterday, of calling for the immediate surrender of
the various seals of office did not proceed from any in-
tentional discourtesy, but from a wish to prevent any
repetition of the species of declarations put forth on a
former occasion by some individuals of the then retir-
ing Cabinet, that " they had not resigned ;" that
" they at least were still ready to serve the King ;" and
other absurd puerilities of- a similar stamp.—Times.

help it ; that he should be done in about another hour, as
be had not many more to burn, and he would see everything
was safe ; and that Mrs. Wright need not put herself out
of the way about it. Neither Cross nor Reynolds recollect
anything of the two first messages. Cross says that about
eleven o'clock in the morning he was in the body of the
House of Lords ; that he got in by knocking at Mrs.
Wright's door, which she opened to him ; that he went to
see whether there was any particular heat. Cross states
Mrs. Wright had not sent for him ; that he asked her to
let him go in, just to see how the flues were, as he was
burning some tallies. She said she could smell the wood
burning. He said yes, that they were burning wood instead
of coal in the flues. He said there was no danger, or
something Of that kind. Mrs. Wright wanted to know
why he was burning the wood there, and he said it was by
Mr. Weobley's orders. Cross further stated that he looked
at the thermometer, and that that was partly the reason
why he went there ; that he went and put his hand to the
place over the flues to see whether all was safe ; that Le
did not find it particuularly hot ; did not ga to the House
of Lords a second time to see if all was safe ; did not see
there was any occasion to go at all.
It must be observed, however, that the state and appear-
ance of the House of Lords during the whole of Thursday
were such as to create uneasiness in the mind of Mrs.
Wright, and later in the day, and up to the time of her
locking up the House, might have caused the most serious
alarm.

Mr. John Snell, a witness examined, says that about four
o'clock be went with another Gentleman to see the House
of-Lords, which was shown to Min by Mrs. Wright. He
says that when he went into the House he observed what
a quantity of smoke there was. She said " Yes, the work-
men are below." They remained about a quarter of an
hour looking at the House and places adjoining, and were
about to leave the House when, as Mr. Snell says, his
notice was drawn to the Usher of the Black Rod's box ;
that he went over to it and adds, " When I got very near
to the box the heat was so great I said ' Bless me, how
warm it is here ;' I felt it through my boots." Mr. Snell
farther states that he put his fingers down to the floor, and
held them there for about a quarter of a minute, and said,
" I should almost be afraid this would take fire." " Oh,
no," said Mrs. Wright, "it is a stone floor." That it
was observed by the Gentleman who accompanied Mr.
Snell, a Mr. Shuter, who was leaning over the box, that
there was a suffocating heat ; that Mrs. Wright said " Oh,
the workmen are below burning the Exchequer tallies, and
I have known when the House was sitting that people who
have stood at this spot have fainted." " And by her mak-
ing this remark," says Mr. Snell, " my observation was
taken off altogether from it." He says he was much
grieved that thre was so much smoke in the House that
he could not see the tapestry, and that he went and put his
hand up to convince himself that it was tapestry ; that he
could not see the Throne from the Bar.

It appears, as already stated, that Mrs. Wright herself
complaii.ed at an early hour of the smell of burning, and
that she sent for Cross, as she relates, at half-past one. She
says she found the House much worse, and sent for him
again ; and once more, for the last time, about four o'clock,
when the House was in the state just described ; that sho
sent for Jukes, the foreman of the matters employed at the
House of Lords, who has been examined, and that he was
in the House of Lords on the Thursday last about four
o'clock, and that he pulled up the bump (a sort of floor
cloth), which was upon the stone against Black Rod's
box ; that the bump was very hot ; he felt it through his
shoes ; could not hold his hand upon the bump ; did not
feel the stone ; that he told Mrs. Wright it was rather
dangerous, and she said " Yes it was, and that she had
sent to Mr. Weobley's men in the course of the day several
times, and they had not attended to it ; and she further said
she would write off to the Board of Works." Cannot tell
whether she did se or not ; that the bump was wet under-
neath, or as it is called .sweating ; this was confined to the
place near the flue.
Mrs. Wright says that Jukes having been sent for she
said to him, " Jukes, I do not like the appearance of the
House, it is very hot below the Bar." She says that Jukes
ripped up the bump, and that she put her hand upon it,
and was obliged to take her hand away ; this was in Black
Rod's box, just where the flue is. Mr. Jukes said, "It is
very hot, for this bump is quite in a sweat." I said, " Then
go again to Cross, for I feel very uneasy, they will set the
place on fire." Cross then sent me word he should be
down in an hour, and all was right ; but the boy David
Reynolds said " The House is very hot, for it is five de-
grees higher than in the beginning of the day ; it was fifty-
five, it is now sixty." " I sent him to the men," says Mrs.
Wright, " but they would go on with it." At five o'clock
Mrs. 'Wright locked up the House in the state in which it
has been described, and at six o'clock it was on fire.

Mrs. Wright states distinctly that she never made any
representation or communication whatever of any kind, or
in any way, to any of the offices or public departments.
It appears that the flue runs across the angle of the
Black Rod's seat ; it further appears thut the flue had not
been swept since the beginning of the last Session of Par-
liament, being the usual time of sweeping it.
The circumstances above detailed, the heat and smell
perceived in the morning, and the gathering smoke accu-
mulated in the House of Lords at four; the state of that
part of the House near the Black Rod's seat as spoken to
by the witnesses ; the situation of the furnaces and flue in
reference to that place, and the manner in which the flames
were seen bursting out near the Black Rod's seat ; all
clearly prove the burning of the tallies, or the manner in
which they were burned, to have been the cause of the
.calamitous event which has happened.
The opinion of Sir Robert Smirk, and others, inclu-
ding Mr. Weobley, whose admission is much to his credit,
supports that conclusion, in which we unanimously concur.
It is to be lamented that the plan of burning the tallies
in the Exchequer-yard, which was originally proposed by
Mr. Phipps himself, and agreed to by Mr. Milne, was ever
departed from, and that an experiment so full of hazard as
that which was resorted to was ever proposed by Mr.
Weobley, or agreed to by Mr. Phipps, and that too without
the assent of, or any communication with, Mr. Milne, the
superior officer. It is to be observed that wooden tallies
had ceased to be used in the Exchequer since the 10th of
October, 1826, when that mode of accounting was abo-
lished on the surrender of the patent of Lord Guilford
and Mr. Burgoyne. Except on one occasion, about
twenty years ago, when they were burned in Tothill-
fields, the tallies were never, it appears, destroyed other-
wise than by being used (after being broken up) by the
servants of the office as firewood from time to time, .as it
was required.
It is strange that the alteration of the plan of burning
was agreed to, and with the utmost readiness, by Mr.
Phipps, although, by his own account, he was not put in
possession by Mr. Weobley of the objection to the burning
in the Exchequer-yard. We are, however, inclined to be-
lieve the statement of Mr. Weobley, that the objection was
made by him on the Tuesday, and that that circumstance,
although now forgotten by him, and the entire confidence
which Mr. Phipps seems to have placed in the care and
prudence of Mr. Weobley, may have induct d him to con-
sent so readily on the Wednesday to alter the plan for
destroying the tallies.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Weobley did not more effec-
tually superintend the burning of the tallies, and see that
his orders to burn with caution were carried into effect.
He was there only three times during the ten hours of
burning ; and he does not appear to have been there at all
after three o'clock ; subsequently to which hour the symp-
toms of danger arising from the operation threatened and
increased until the event took place. This can only be
accounted for from his having entire confidence in the safety
of the operation ; the danger of which never appears to
have struck his mind at all, although he directed, as a mea-
sure of precaution, the slow burning.
The same confidence and security appear to have been felt
by the men at the furnaces, whom, under all the circum-
stances of the case, as they have been brought before us,
we acquit of all guilty design, although justly chargeable
with gross neglect, disobedience of orders, and utter disre-
gard of all warnings.
It is unaccountable that Mrs. Wright, when she felt
alarmed, as she states herself to have been, was not led by
such manifest indications of danger to make immediate re-
presentation in the proper quarter.
We think it right that we should here advert to the evi-
dence of Mr. Cooper, and of the other witnesses who were
examined in reference to his testimony.
Information having reached us that Mr. Cooper, a r:-
spectable tradesman in London, and a partner of the firm
of Hall and Cooper, iron-founders of Drury-lane, was ready
to give evidence that he had heard of the fire at Dudley
within a few hours after its breaking out, we thought pro-
per to direct that he should attend for the purpose of being
examined, and he was examined accordingly on Monday,
Oct. 20. He stated that he left London by a coach to
Birmingham, for the purpose of proceeding to Dudley on
Thursday morning, Oct. 16 ; that he arrived at Birming-
ham about a quarter past seven in the evening, and set out
for Dudley about eight by another coach (the Tallyho), and
arrived at Dudley at ten minutes before ten at night ;
that he stopped at the Bush Inn, in that town,
and went into the commercial travellers room, as he was
accustomed to do, having used the house frequently ; that
there were four other persons in the room, whom he did
not know ; that they appeared to be respectable men (com-
mercial travellers) ; none of them had come with him from
Birmingham ; that he (Mr. Cooper) called for tea, and
while he was drinking it one of the travellers, who had his
slippers on, went out to the door, and, having returned, after
two minutes' absence, said, " I have just heard that the
House of Lords is burnt down, occasioned by some carpen-
ters being careless with the shavings ;" that one of the other
Gentlemen said, " Is it in the paper ?" He said, " No, it
Cannot have got into the paper." The other said, " How
did you hear it ?" The person who had, brought the intel-

ligence said he had heard it from a person who had come
by the coach. Mr. Cooper being asked if the others heard
this says that one of them did not, he was asleep ; the
ethers did ; that there was nothing more said about it, and
that he went to bed ; that he heard' nothing more on the
subject either that night or in the morning. He thinks he
could recognise the person who asked the question, but not
the one wo brought the information ; that he left the
Gentleman who had brought the information in the travel-
lers' room when he went to bed. In a subsequent exami-
nation Mr. Cooper says that he. did not bear any coach
stop at the door. Next morning he states that he break-
fasted in the same room and at the same table where he had
drunk tea the night before ; that he saw two. of the same
Gentlemen in the room whom.he had seen the night before,
but not the Gentleman who had brought in the intelligence
of the fire. He says that one of the Gentlemen breakfasted
with him.

Upon his third examination, on the 29th of October,
Mr. Cooper recognized a witness produced (Mr. Riddle)
as one of the persons whom he saw in the travellers' room
at the Bush on the Thursday night, but says that he was
not the person who went out and returned, and said he had
heard of the fire ; did not notice what sort of a gentleman
it was that so went out and returned—whether be was of a
fair or dark complexion, tall or short, or middle-sized ;
whether he had a black handkerchief or a white one, or
what was his dress ; but noticed that he had slippers on.
He thinks that the gentleman (Mr. Riddle) was present in
the room on the Thursday evening when the news of the
fire was brought in, but he is not positive.
Mr. Cooper further states that he left Dudley at 8 o'clock
in the morning, or a few minutes after, and went to the But-
terfly and to the Netherton Iron Works, in the neighbour-
hood of Dudley ; returned to Dudley about eleven o'clock,
paid his bill, and left Dudley about a quarter past eleven ;
he thinks the mail-coach had arrived, for he saw the even-
ing paper on the table unopened ; the wrapper appeared to
have been slipped off, but the paper was unopened ; he took
took it up, and knowing that he had a good deal of business,
he put it down again and did not read it ; he left Dudley
in a gig, and went to Bilston and Wednesbury, where he
was taken up by the Union Shrewsbury coach about half-
past two in the afternoon, and arrived at Birmingham about
three ; he remained there till four, and was in the coffee-
room before starting, but not a word passed there on the
subject of the fire. Mr. Cooper says be can account for
this as the passengers were all from Shrewsbury, none of
them from London ; states that at four o'clock he left Bir-
mingham for London by the same coach (the Shrewsbury
Union coach), of which Thomas Stuckbury, a witness who
has been examined, was the guard ; he states that neither
at Dudley on the Friday, or at the iron works in the neigh-
bourhood, or at Bilston, or at Wednesbury, or at Birming-
ham, did he hear any thing of the fire, nor did he himself
mention the subject to any one. The coach passed through
Oxford, where the witness says he had heard the first intel-
ligence of the fire as it had actually taken place. He heard
of it from the waiter at the Roebuck on Friday night. He
told the waiter that he had beard of it the night before at
Dudley. The waiter said, " Indeed! How could that
have been ?" I said, "I am surprised myself, for I did not
see bow it could come down." He told me the fire had
broken out at seven in the evening. I told him I had heard
of it at ten.

On his second examination Mr. Cooper says, that upon
this occasion an observation arose from himself (witness),
that if it had broken out at seven o'clock it must have been
the work of an incendiary, for he had heard of it at ten.
On being reminded that he had omitted that when he was
first examined, he acknowledged that he bad. -In the same
examination he states, that when he said to the waiter that
it must be the work of an incendiary, for he had heard of
it in three hours, the waiter was going out of the room.
He says he aftervords mentioned the circumstance of his
having on Thursday evening heard of the fire at Dudley ;
that he mentioned it during the night of Friday to the pas-
sengers who were with him on the top of the coach, and
that one of the gentlemen mentioned it to the guard, who
said he did not believe it. Witness said it was a fact, and
that he had been informed of it on the Thursday night at
Dudley ; is positive that he told the guard, or the person
near him, that it was at Dudley, and not at Birmingham, that
he at first heard of the fire. He says that he had no con-
versation with the guard or any of the passengers in coming
frm Oxford to London as to the extraordinary quick time
within which the news had arrived.

Mr. Cooper, on his first examination, states that he ar-
rived in London on Saturday morning the 18th of October,
at seven o'clock ; that he saw his partner Mr. Hall first,
but did not mention it to him, being very tired, and wanting
a little rest, nor did he mention it to Mr. Barron when he
saw him on the Saturday at two o'clock ; says that he first
mentioned the circumstance of his having heard of the fire
at Dudley to a medical gentleman of the name of Jones,
who was attending his family ; this was about two o'clock
on the Saturday afternoon. States that Mr. Jones called
upon him on the Sunday, and said he thought he (Mr.
Cooper) was wrong in -not cownnuninating- what he had
heard.

On his second examination Mr. Cooper states that in his
former examination he was incorrect in saying that he had
first communicated what he had heard at Dudley to Mr.
Jones. It was to his partner that he first communicated it.
Not the first time he saw him, but afterwards.
The above we believe to be a correct statement of every-
thing that is material in the evidence given by Mr. Cooper,
in the three several occasions on which he was examined
before us.

Three witnesses were examined in reference to that part
of Mr. Cooper's testimony which embraces the evening of
Thursday and the morning of Friday, the 16th and 17th of
October. One of them, named Sarah Taylor, waiter at the
Bush Inn at Dudley, sais that she attended the commercial
travellers' room on both occasions. She is well acquainted
with Mr. Cooper ; served him with tea in the travellers'
room on the evening alluded to ; states that when Mr.
Cooper was there there were two other gentlemen (com-
mercial travellers) in the room ; she was there a consider-
able time out and in ; heard them talking too-ether ; there
was no conversation about the fire when she was there ;
did not see any person come in and give any information
to them ; did not hear of the fire that night from them, or
anybody else ; she heard first of the fire on Friday morn-
ing, about eleven o'clock ; she states that the London mail
had arrived about nine o'clock. Mr. Cooper slept at the
Bush, and came down in the morning about eight o'clock,
and bad his breakfast in the same room in which he
had his tea in the evening before, and at the same table ;
two of the same gentlemen who had been there on the
night before were in the room with Mr. Cooper at that
time ; that at about eleven o'clock, a gentleman of the
name of Downing drove in in his gig, and said that he
had heard that the houses of Lords and Commons were
burnt down, and he hoped that it was not true ; he said he
had come from Manchester, and had heard of it at Stour-
bridge. That was the first intelligence that the witness
had of the fire. It was on Friday morning, and not on
Thursday night. Mr. Cooper was gone when the gentle-
man came. He paid his bill at ten, and went away. She
says that the news might have come by the London mail,
which came into Dudley about nine o'clock in the morning,
but the witness did not hear it so early. The mail bad ar-
rived before Mr. Cooper paid his bill.
The evidence of Mr. John Riddle we consider to be
very material in reference to the point in question ; he is a
commercial traveller, and was recognized by Mr. Cooper as
having been in the travellers' room at the Bush, on Thurs-
day the 16th. Mr. Riddle says, he was there at about a
quarter before eight in the evening. That he stayed there
till nine o'clock, and then went out and returned in about half
an hour ; that a gentleman whom he now understands to be
Mr. Cooper came in about the same time that he (the wit-
ness) returned. He saw him have tea. States that he (the wit-
ness) did not at the time when Mr. Cooper had tea, or at any
time on that evening, hear of the fire either out of the Bush
Inn or in the Bush Inn. There were two or three other
gentlemen there besides Mr. Cooper. That nothing was
said by either of them respecting the fire. Is sure of that.
Has not the least doubt of it. Witness did not bear of it
that night. He was in the room as long as Mr. Cooper.
He (witness) remained there until eleven o'clock at night.
Slept at the Bush Inn, and breakfasted there next morning.
Does not recollect whether he saw Mr. Cooper that morn-
ing or not ' • after breakfast he (Mr. Riddle) went out, and
heard of the fire from Mr. Smith, the landlord of the hotel,
who told him he bad heard it from Robins, the coachman
of the mail, who had come from Birmingham that morning.
'Witness said he went back to the commercial travellers'
room at the Bush between nine and ten. Being asked whe-
ther he then told what he had heard, Mr. Riddle says, " I
believe I made use of such words as these—' Here is a pretty
go ; here's the House of Lords and Commons on fire ;' "
does not know whether he said that he had heard it from a
gentleman who had come by the coach, but it is most likely
he did ; he says be remained in the room five or ten -mi-
nutes ; that he may have had some conversation about it ;
he thinks it probable, but does not recollect any ; there were
four persons in the room, but does not know whether Mr.
Cooper was one of them ; he says be is positive this was on
Friday morning, and that he never heard of the fire till he
heard of it at the hotel from the landlord of that house.
Mr. C. Twamley, solicitor at Dudley, states that be
made inquiries, first at the Bush, and afterwards at the
hotel, the two coach-houses in the town, and found that
the first, information of the fire was received at each of
those houses on Friday morning ; that he also made in-
quiries at various places, but did not find the slightest trace
of the rumour of the fire having reached Dudley on Thurs-
day evening ; that he made diligent inquiries for the pur-
pose of discovering whether there had been such a report.
Mr. Twamley further states, that in consequence of an in-
quiry on the part of the Attorney-General. he (the wit-
ness) did write to him to say that a • rumour had prevailed
on the Thursday morning, but he found that this was a
mistake of Thursday for Friday on the part of Sarah Tay-

ior, the waiter at the Bush, and that he wrote to that Ow'
by the following post. told
Sarah Taylor, being again called, states that she, in,
Mr. Twamley of the report having reached the 13usaIt
at Dudley, on the Thursday. That she then recollectecebe
was Friday, and sent to Mr. Twamley and told him. do,
says she meant Friday morning ; she never said Thur° ith
evening, but Thursday morning ; she confounded it ir
Friday morning; she knew it was in the morning that they
heard the report. t he
It will be remembered that Mr. Cooper stated tha- h
heard of the fire on his journey for the first time from t_ed
waiter of the Roebuck at Oxford, where the coach stopred
in the night of Friday •; that the waiter having infrin",
him that the fire had broken out at seven,in the everniacj
Thursday, he told the waiter that he (Mr. Cooper) they
heard of it the night before at Dudley at ten ; that r),
both expressed surprise at this, and that be (Mr. Coopewn,
said he did not see how the news could have come 63.
and that it must have been the work- of an incendi,
which words, however, in his subsequent examination,
says were used when the waiter was leaving the reomfloba
We have examined the waiter of the Roebuck
Whitbread), who states that he remembers the Union cv
thai it
coming from Birmingham on the Friday evening ; in
stopped at the Roebuck, and that one passenger cfePegs)
to cup, whom he attended upon ; that he (the w"s;ja
asked him whether he had heard of the fire, and he„og, r
he had heard of it ; does not recollect that the PaE"-ii-eree
said where he had heard of the fire ; he did not saY w",s.
he had heard of it. Witness does not remember that the Po
stinger said he heard it the night before three or four h,°00?;
after it took place, or at any time very shortly after it, 'I of
place. Witness never heard him say where he had If"rtr,or
the fire. The passenger said nothing about incendiare''fre,
anything respecting his way of hearing of the de
or the time at which he heard it, or anything Ivhich i°9„,
it matter of wonder that he should have heard of it SO
SrOV
or anything which induced the witness to express anY° its
der that it should have come in so short a time, or. ace
being strange that he should have received the int
so soon after the event occurred. He (witness) is Pc;laiir
that he made no observations to the passenger on tbtrio;
pet, and that certainly noting was said about incem°,abicb
that there was nothing in what the passenger sii`l„,'Or
particularly struck his mind, but witness asked I°`", twas
flier he had heard of the fire, and he said he had ; 13`a,;00ea
all that passed ; • does not think the passenger me tilt
tilt
the name of the place where he had heard it ;
only passenger by that coach who came into the 0°11,1;e1 3
was a middle-aged man, rather stout. He thinks ra,`,nows
light complexioned man, but he cannot be sure. P., e Air
that he was rather a stout man (a description of t:11,,
pearance of Mr. Cooper, who was not present at
occ that
emulation). The witness says that be does not secs
he should know the passenger again if he saw hum' ears at
so many. He further states that there are two wa4:that
the Roebuck, but that the other does not attend nl)°-
room. e"
In considering attentively the evidence with refeirlari4
Mr. Cooper's statement, we have no hesitation ill to
we wholly disbelieve his story. We are willir4 h°di'
Hove that Mr. Cooper has been mistaken, and thatj, but
not intend in his evidence to deviate from the truth
we consider his testimony to have been satisfactorily Tdeoce
other evidence and disproved. Mr. Cooper's Irteoli°
stands wholly unsupported, and is positively contra duet eco
all that is material to the point of inquiry. His envuu;s6r't
his journey from Dudley to London—his silence 0011," coo'
arrival in London, even to persons the most nearc'atioes
nected with him—his inaccuracy as to his corninnwctatiees
when they did take place, and indeed all the circfla!°
eor
of his conduct throughout would leave the case in 00
trable mystery, if his evidence were to be relied urn' wit'
the other hand the connected story told by the °tile, as
nesses disperses all mystery, and leads us to o°l'lool
we have concluded, that the fire was accidental---Wasnrelese f
as have related it, and was wholly attributable to
ness and negligence. °
Indeed it would be very difficult to point out bas c-beca
fire which could be more clearly traced than this
witbt
to its cause without suspicion of evil design.
All which is humbly submitted to your Maies
"s*:;eP'l'
this further recommendation that copies of if the
th
should be communicated to the Lord Chamberlain
Household and to the Board of Works .
(Signed) W. L. BATHURST. idePt).
DUNCANNON (for the reS