The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-22 00:00:00

to prevent its being evaded, and that was the reason, in all
probability, why it had existed as a law so long. He was
not prepared to pledge himself to bring in any Bill at pre-
sent with a view to alter or abolish it.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, that in 1800 it was made an
annual Act—it had b en continued annually for some time
down, but was universally supposed that it had long since
expired. As to himself, he had no idea that such an Act was
in existence, until the present notice of motion had been
given. The Hon. and Learned Member then put two
questions to the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, re-
specting the measure, the eff-cts of which he had detailed
last night, neither of which we distinctly heard, from the
bustle and confusion that prevailed in the House at the
time.

Mr. LITTLETON submitted to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, and to the House, the propriety of abstaining
from putting questions upon this subject until the Bill
was before them, which would be introduced in about
three days at the latest.
Sir S. WHALLEY asked two questions of the Noble
Lord in the department of the Woods and Forests (Lord
Duncannon), but in so low a tone of voice, and the
noise in the House was so great, that they were
not audible in the gallery; we understood them
to relate to the accommodation which should be afforded
to the public by opening the Regent's Park.
Lord DUNCANNON was also very imperfectly heard,
as were several succeeding Members. He was under-
stood to say that it was his wish that the public
should he afforded every accommodation and convenience :
but he could not advise his Majooy to order the Regent's
Park to be altogether thrown open, although he did intend
to recommend that that part which was between the road
and the canal on one side should be opened.
Mr. RUTHVEN asked the Right Hon. Secretary for
Ireland if it was the intention of Government to carry
into effect the recommendation of the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners, by uniting the Deaneries of Down and
Raphoe?
Mr. LITTLETON said that was the intention of his
Majesty's Ministers, and that in a very few days the sub-
ject would be before the Lord Lieutenant and the Council.
Colonel VERNER, in allusion to a meeting for the
abolition of tithes in Ireland, which was held a short time
ago, at which two magistrates were present, wished
to know whether it was the intention of his Majesty's
Government to adopt any steps with respect to those
Magistrates. .

Mr. LITTLETON said he was aware of that
meeting, the requisition for which was signed by
one Magistrate, and at which a resolution was pro-
posed by another Magistrate.—(Hear, hear.) He was,
however, not aware that the meeting was illegal, or that
any unwarrantable language was used at it, and therefore
it was not the intention of the Government to Like any
steps with respect to those magistrates.—(Hear, hear.)
Major BEAUCLERK put a question to a Noble Lord
opposite, relative to the contemplated employment of the
new police force in a pa►ish in Surrey, which had been
protested against by the parishioners, but he spoke i❑ a
tone that was nearly inaudible to the reporters.
Lord HOWICK said he could give no answer to the
question, as from the want of previous notice he had not
any information upon the subject. If, however, the Hon.
and Gallant Officer wished, he would make the inquiry.
Major BEAUCLERK then gave notice that he would,
at another time, put the question.

On the motion that the House do resolve itself into a
Committee of Supply,
Lord CHANDOS rose, and, after that part of his
Majesty's speech relating to the distress of the agricultural
interests had been read by the clerk, the Noble Lord
said that he was about to call the attention of the
House to the subject of the agricultural distress.
He believed that he was about to call the attention of the
House to a question of the greatest importance, and one
which, in his humble judgment, was not exceeded in im-
portance by any other. It was admitted that distress per-
vaded all the agricultural classes. He was unable to do
justice to the subject, but he trusted in what he brought
before the House, however humble his efforts might be,
that the House would go along with him, for they were
all satisfied that distress existed, and he was sure
they would be all ready to relieve it. Distress bad
existed amongst the agricultural clasies for a great
many years—it had extended with great rapidity, and at
one period with greater rapidity than at another ; but!
there was not one portion of the agricultural intetest
which was not, more or less, suffering under distress. n
the year 1821, a Committee was appointed to in-
quire into the agricultural distress, but he believed
that that Committee did not do great credit
to the agricultural interest, or give any relief to that
body. Certainly distress existed in 1821, though
not to such a degree as it existed at present.
Last year his Majesty's Government appointed another
Committee, in order that this House might be made
acquainted with the present state of the agricultural distress.
It was but due to the Right Hon. Btroner, the Chair-
man of that Committee, to state that no person was better
able to inquire into the subject than he was. The
report, which was so clearly drawn up, went along
with him (Lord,Chandos) in his assertion that distress
to a great extent existed amongst the agricultural in-
terests.—(Hear, hear.) He would read an extract from
the report of the Committee in 1821, which expressed a
hope that the great body of the agriculturists, though
suffering from distress, might, from the increasing prospe-
rity of the times, from their credit, and from the resources
which they possessed, be able to meet the difficulties which
surrounded them. But the Committee of last year
allowed the full extent of the difficulties which pressed
upon agriculture, and expressed their opinions that the
agricultural credit was falling, and that their resources
were exhausted. Was it then possible for any man con-
nected with the soil, and relying upon it for his indepen-
dence, not to sympathize with the distressed state of the
farmer, and to take the earliest opportunity to assist him
in his distress? He felt, and be stated with feelings of plea-
sure, that he depended upon the soil for his independence.
The reports of the Committee of 1921 and of 1833 con-
firmed the opinion, to which there could be scarcely a dis-
sentient idea, of the general distress of the farmers.
This distress arose from different causes; from local
and general causes. Same farmers, to be sure, were
in a flourishing condition ; but those were such as had
other resources besides their lands—re sources upon which
they were obliged to fall back. Those were resources
which the generality of farmers did not possess.—(Hear.)
It was well known that the destruction of crops had
been very general. It was well-known that in the lowlands,
where, in the year 1815, rents were 535. they were now
reduced to 7s. and 14s. The landlords made every ex-
ertion to meet the coming difficulties, as they increased
from time to time ; but every contrivance tended only to
increase the difficulties, and diffuse them through all
grades—from landlords down to labourers. Daily
charges were brought against the farmers of a wish to
enjoy a monopoly to the prejudice of other classes.
lie (Lord Chandos) on every opportunity would disclaim
this.—(Hear, hear.) They did not trench on the interests
of any other classes. They endured their distresses, and
did not clamour as other classes, for relief.—(Loud
cheers.) They bore them patiently—they did not
resist the King's officers. They manifested a degree
of patience which entitled them to the consideration of
all who were willing to award redress, whey it was sought
fur peaceully, and when their claims to it were derived
from the spirit of loyalty they exhibited, and the forbear-
ance they evinced, under all their grievances.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Lord, on bringing in his Budget the other
night, had alluded to the distresses of the agricultural
classes, and stared his hope that be should be able this
session to relieve them by his proposed alterations in
the poor laws, and the tithe system.—(Hear, hear.)
So far as these two measures went, they would certainly
benefit the farmers, but they would by no means relieve
the entire class. The Noble Lord was himself a farmer,
and knew what the state of the farmers was at that
moment. At all events, the plan, as proposed by
the Noble Lord regarding the commutation of tithes,
was prospective, and they could not obtain
any relief from that for a certain time. But
before the farmer got that relief, a great many of those
who were now able to go would sink. In the county
where he (the Marquis of Chandos) resided, such was the
amountof the poor rates that one large parish was in the hands
of the poor. That was not the state to which the whole
country was to be brought, because, whenever that should
be the case, it was past legislation, and no Minister, no
matter who he might be, could save the country from
utter ruin and destruction. It was necessary for the
House to look to the state in which the agricultural
interest now stood with regard to produce anti its price.
He had heard an Hon. Member, a few nights since, allude
to the monopoly the farmers enjoyed in the articles of
butter, bacon, and he believed he added eggs.—(Laughter.)
He meant the Honourable Member for Middlesex. But
he could tell that Hon. Member, that the farmers
did not enjoy any such monopoly. If the lion. Member
for Middlesex held a large dairy farm, he would be aware
that the butter which was formerly sold for Is. 6d. and
Is. 7d. was now down to is. Id, and Is. 2d. With re-
gard to the price of cattle, the Hon. Member knew snore
about that than he (the Marquis of Chandos)
(Great laughter.) There was nothing extraordinary
in the prices of any description of agricultural produce—it
was no more than the farmer ought to have in order to be
able to pay his labourers, and, in fact, it was under a fair

remuneration. The prices of labour which were formerly 6s.
and 7s. were now up to 10s. When he looked
back to the period of 1823, when riots and fires took place
throughout the country, he cou'd not help bearing in
mind that these excesses took place from the distresses
of the agricultural population, and their anxiety to have
rents reduced. He hoped the country would never see
those things again, and he hoped that the House
would assist him in bringing about some relief to the
farmers and the labouring classes. As Mr. Burke said,
the trade of the farmer was a poor one, and his capital
more precarious than any other. He would now call
the attention of the House to the condition in which the
middle class of farmers were. A farmer who held 750
acres of good grass land paid 170/. fur parochial rates,
2301. for labour, and when the King's taxes, and other
incidental expenses were added, the whole charges upon
750 acres amounted to 769/. 12s. The farmer also paid a
considerable duty upon malt—he also paid the duties upon
windows, and upon horses employed in agriculture, and the
servant who worked in the fields, if he came to assist his
master in the house, was taxed. To show the extraordi.
nary increase that had taken place in the poor rates,
be had taken the amount at too periods of six
years, from the year 1787 to 1792 they averaged
765/., and the average of six years from 1828 to 1833
was 3,6771. This was in the county of Buckingham, in
which the price of wheat was 10s., and labour was front
9s. to 10s. In another parish the average from the year
1787 to 1792 was 2,6001., and the average for six years
from 1828 to 1833 was 7,139/. In another parish
the poor rates averaged in the former period the sum
of 2,151/., and from the year 1814 to 1819 they
averaged 9,7771. In another parish in the same county,
in the former period, from 1787 to 1792, they averaged
2,1551., and they now averaged 6,297/. If a stop were
not put to this system, the property would soon be in
the hands of the paupers ; they would have the fee-
simple of the land. When these things were stated,
the Noble Lord would see that it was necessary to give
the agricultural interest relief by some other means than
the prospective relief to which he had alluded. He had
received a letter from a farmer in Somerset, and althou4h
he (the Marquis of Chandos) did not know him person-
ally, he was a man who was well known and respected.
The letter stated that the produce of a farm in
the vale of Taunton, for which he paid forty shillings
per acre, amounted to 584/., and that his outgoings
amounted to 58'7/. This was a first rate farm. In
a second rate farm, for which 28s. an acre was paid, the
produce amounted to 766/, and the outgoings to 883/.
He did not think that, looking at all the circum-
stances in which the agricultural classes were placed,
they could make the two ends meet in any part of the
country. In the instances to which he had alluded,
the farmers having other means and resources, would
perhaps be able to get on for same time longer.
The Noble Lord had stated that he meant to give the
householders the remission of their taxes. He (the Noble
Marquis) was one who bad voted for the reduction of
those taxes, and he would have done so again this year had
the question of vote been brought forward. He con-
gratulated the householders on what they had received, but
he should have been better pleased if tile Noble Lord had
given the remission without accompanying it with the
statement that he remitted that tax merely because it was
unpopular, and there was a clamour raised against it.
But why give up the house tax, and impose the malt tax?
Lord ALTHORP—I did not impose the malt tax.
The Marquis of CHANDOS—Yes, indeed, you did,
because the House voted its abolition, and you cime down
in four days afterwards and imposed it again.—(Hear and
laughter.) He had rejoiced to hear the flattering statement
made by the Noble Lord of the state of his revenue. With
respect to the 800,0001. which the Noble Lord said he had
to appropriate in payment of the interest of the West In-
dia giant, he did not understand that that could be wanted
till next August at the soonest.
Lord ALTHORP said the money had been all trans-
mitted.

The Marquis of CHANDOS—.The whole of the
capital ?
Lord ALTHORP—Yes.
The Marquis of CHANDOS then doubted that the
Commissioners would not be ready to receive it,
but still he thought the Noble Lord Lord might have
retained part of it here awhile, so as to have enabled him
to take off the window taxes.—(Hear, hear.) He was
not one who wished that there should not be a strict at-
tention to good faith in the payment of that large sum of
money now that it had been granted, but still important
claims of the inhabitants of this country were not there-
fore to be rejected.--(Hear, hear.) If the Noble Lord
would only impose an additional duty on gin and
o❑ French wines, he was quite sure that the Ex-
chequer would enable him to make these further
remissions of taxation which were so loudly called for.
The Noble Lord was extremely mistaken if he thought he
could go on another year without giving assistance to the
farmers. They had long and patiently suffered, and never
attempted, by clamour or improper interference, to call
upon the House to reduce their taxation, but they had this
night begged through him to lay their case before Parlia
went. In doing so, he knew the jury of which the
House was composed. There were many country gentle-
men in it who well understood the subject, and he had no
doubt they would conduct themselves on this occasion in
such a manner as they would be enabled to go back to their
constituents with confidence and satisfaction. He would
not have felt that he was doing his duty to the farmers
or to the public, had he not taken the earliest possible
opportunity of bringing forward this question after
the notice that had been taken of it in his Majesty's
speech. After that notice every one thought and ex-
pected that Government would have brought forward a
measure for the amelioration of the farmer's condi-
tion, but all had been grievously disappointed.
He implored the House not to separate this night without
showi❑g the farmers that they would listen to their
prayer. He brought forward the subject from no improper
motive, not because he was opposed to the present Ministry,
but because he considered it absolu•ely necessary that at-
tention should immediately be paid to this class of society.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) He hop,d it would not be said
that because the farmers had not given way to clamour
they were to be neglected, and now told nothing
could be done for them, because the Budget was closed
for another year. Should their prayer be rejected,
their distress would be augmented, and the
Noble Lord's difficulties beyond all doubt increased.
He trusted, however, his humble tale on their behalf
would be listened to ; he implored the Noble Lord to
accede to his request. The Noble Marquis concluded
by moving the following resolution, 39 an amendment :
" That in any reduction of the burdens of the country
which it might he practicable to effect by the remission of
taxes, a due regard be had to the distressed condition of
the agricultural interest, as adverted to his Majesty's
speech."
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL rose to second the
amendment, and said that he should ill discharge
his duty to his constituents, if he hesitated for one mo-
ment to express his concurrence generally in the senti-
ments of the Noble Lord who had preceded him. The
Noble Lord had gone into so many topics on the subject
of the distress of the agricultural classes, and had so fully
illustrated that distress, that it would not be necessary
for him to trespass long on the attention of the House
in seconding it. The case of the agricultural classes had,
he considered, been fully proved, and he could not think
that it would be disregarded by the House. As many
other opportunities would occur of addressing the House
on this subject, on the other motions connected with it
which stood on the book, he would not at present go into
any details, but he would call on Ministers to state why
the occupiers of land, and they alone, should be excluded
from the relief which it was proposed to give from direct
taxation? Allusion had been made to the high character
for good conduct, for loyal and peaceful disposition, of
the petitioners whose case had been brought before
the House. He could bear his testimony to that
high character, and could state, front his own knowledge,
that a better or more peaceably disposed class did not exist
in the country._( Hear, hear.) He did not, however, lay
their claim to relief on that ground alone. They had
grounds fur seeking relief which in common justice ought
to he irresistible. He did not wish on this occasion to a'k
for relief for one class at the expense of another. He was
glad to find that the manu•acturers and commercial
classes were to be relieved. All he desired was, that relief
should be extended to that other class which stood so
much in need of it, for he did not wish to raise up dis-
tinctions of interests or to set one class against another,
where the general interests of both were so blended that
one could not suffer without seriously affecting the other.—
(Hear, hear.) He would not detain the House further
than to express a hope that that relief could not he with-
held for which so strong a claim had been made out.

Lord ALTHORP concurred in the description given by
the Noble Marquis of the distress which existed amongst
the agricultural classes. He was quite ready to admit
that those classes were most pressed down, and he assured
the Noble Lord that be concurred in the wish that his
exertions might relieve them. In some points he differed
widely from the view taken by the Noble Lord ; but the
Noble Lord could not think that he should eiffa from him,
when be laid so much stress on the severe pressure 01 the
poor-rates. He agreed that those rates did press with
great severity on the occupiers of land. Indeed, so great
were the burdens and pressure in this respect, that little