The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-10 00:00:00

TRADE WITH PORTUGAL.

Upon the order of the day being moved that the
whole house do resolve itself into a committee upon the
bill for the reduction of the Four per Cent. Annuities,
Mr. ROBINSON rose to move an amendment.
He wished to know if it was the noble lord's intention
to deprive him of the opportunity of moving
for the production of certain decrees that had been
promulgated by the Portuguese Government most in-
juriously affecting the commercial interests of this coun-
, try ? He was sorry to observe that the noble lord smiled
' at the bare mention of this subject. ( Hear, and laugh:-
ter. ) He had done all in his power to have an oppor-
tunity afforded to him to make this motion. He had not
only made many attempts in the house, but had asked
the noble lord for his permission to do so in private, but
both ways he had only been able to get answers in the
negative, notwithstanding this inquiry affected one of
the most unexampled proceedings that had ever taken
place in diplomatic intercourse.
Lord ALTHORP complained that the amendment
had no relation to the original motion.
Mr. ROBINSON said, that from what he had been able
to hear of what the noble lord had said lie was sur-
prised that the noble lord should have expressed him-
self so disingenuously as he had done. Undoubtedly
nothing could be a more inconvenient course than the
one he was proposing to take, but what alternative
had he ?

no neeeasity that that amendment should le.akin to the
motion.
Mr. ROB IN SON put it to the opinion of the house,
whether, as the Speaker had decided upon his
right to bring forward h:s motion, he should not
be allowed to do so ? The present was a case of
pressing importance. The government of Portugal
had issued the decree by which the commerce of this
country was placed upon a less advantageous footing
than it had been for the last 25 years. He did not
deny that the Portuguese government had a per-
fect right to do as they had done ; but he
looked upon it, as far as the government of that
country was concerned, as a most ungrateful and extra-
ordinary act, considering that it owed its present
stability to the moral countenance given by this govern-
ment. He could not, however, help stating his con-
viction that this calamity was owing to the English
government. In 1831 the noble lord opposite came with
his budget, and proposed an equalization of the new
duties, and to that most uncalled for and most
injudicious piece of legislation lie attributed the
present act of the Portuguese Government. He
had foretold what would be the result of that measure.
It was, ho (Mr. R.) then stated, very probable
that during the government of Don Miguel it would
do no injury, but the moment there was a constitu-
tional government the trade with Portugal was lost.
There were three advantages proposed to arise from
the equalization of the wine duties, one was that the
revenue would be increased—it had been diminished ;
another was, that the consumption of French wines
would be increased—this had also diminished, and he
would ask what had become of the boasted reciprocity on
the part of the French government ? They had di-
minished the duty upon coals and cotton wool, but
so far from promoting the manufactures of this coun-
try, it was solely intended to promote their own.
Nobody had admitted more than he the advantage of a
good understanding with France, but Government was
taking a course quite contrary to it, and to commer-
cial intercourse with all other countries. ( Hear )
Did the noble lord imagine that the inhabitants
of this country were to submit to the non-
intervention system, which was alike disgusting to
both parties in Portugal ? He supposed they would
hear by and by of some treaty which was considered a
sufficient apology for the conduct pursued. He cared
ni4 whether Don Miguel or Donna Maria reigned, but
he believed the noble lord wished to make Donna
Maria a mere puppet. He had every personal respect
for the noble lord, but there never was a weaker mea-
sure brought forward than that of the equalization
of the duties on wine. ( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He did not know that he could take any other
course, then move for the papers, which would throw
a light upon the whole question. He did not deny
that there was an elasticity about British com-
merce which would carry itself on, but the question
was not whether it would continue with Portugal,
but whether it could be continued with advantage.
He gave every credit to the Vice-President of the
Board of Trade, for the manner in which the business
was carried on at his office, but every communica-
tion was passed through the soporific fingers of the
noble lord, so that it went quite harmless and feeble
to our ambassadors. The noble lord ( Palmerston)
was well skilled in diplomatic intrigue, and no doubt
on this occasion thought him (Mr. Robinson) the
greatest bore in the house. (Great laughter.)
He would not detain the hipse, but move for copies
of the correspondence between the authorities of
Portugal and the Secretary of State for the Fo-
reign department ( Hear, hear) respecting the decree
of the Queen of Portugal on the equalization of the
duties on wines.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG seconded the amendment.'

The question being put,
Lord PALMERSTON said the hon. member's
charges against him were most unfounded ; indeed to
accuse any person holding the high office of Secretary
for Foreign Affairs even with indifference and inatten-
tion to foreign affairs was to accuse him of want of
common sense, and the imputation did not say much
for the common sense of any one who could make it.
He denied any indifference to the least details of the busi-
ness intrusted to him ; on the contrary, his whole time was
taken up in the duties of his office. To come to the ques-
tion. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.") The only real ques-
tion was as to the decree alluded to having been made by
the Portuguese government without previous intimation
being given to this country. (Hear, bear.) He admitted
that -notice had not been given, as might have been ex-
pected ; he did not intend to stand forward to defend the
ministers of Don Pedro where they did wrong, any more
than he had defended the ministers of Don Miguel where
they had done wrong. He had no hesitation in saying that
the Portuguese government ought to have given due no-
tice to this country of the intended decree ; but with refer-
ence to the decree itself, he did not think the change it
effected would be prejudicial, to the interests of the country.
(Hear, hear.) The only branch of commerce at all likely
to be effected by the change, was that in which, as he
understood, the hon. gentleman was interested (A laugh ),
the Newfoundland fish trade. It would be recollected,
that although in Spain for some time past we had had to
compete with every other nation, we bad kept up our trade
there. -
Mar.
has alen off
r.ROfBIINSONon—e-Ihnal. ( H
thfe lastear2o,
bar. )
years our trade with
Spin
Lord PALMERSTON resumed—With reference to
the decree, he said there was nothing in the treaty of 1810
which gave England a right to object to the change
effected by the decree, whether we had intimation of it or
not. The hon. member had described this as another
instance of the way in which this government were im-
posed upon by the arts of the French Ambassador. He
(Lord P.) would venture to say, however, that the French
Government had been taken quite as much by surprise at
the announcement of this decree as had the English
Government. The hon. member was equally mistaken in
his assertion that the French Government were making no
advances towards liberal commercial arrangements between
the two countries. The hon. gentleman must have heard
of the report made by the Chamber of Commerce to the
French Government, in which they strenuously recom-
mend many very liberal arrangements as to the duties im-
posed on mutual commerce. ( Hear, hear.) He should
have no objection to produce the decree, or the papers
connected with it, but the hon. gentleman gave no specifi-
cation of any other papers he wanted.
Mr. BAKING said that, however the noble lord might
view the matter, it appeared to him (Mr. Baring) that
the hon. gentleman was entitled to the thanks of the
country for bringing this question forward; and he was
only surprised that it had not been mooted before. The
objection which the noble lord had to its introduction was
the absence of any thing like a tolerable answer to the
hon. gentleman's motion, as clearly appeared from the fact
that after beating about the bush for fifteen minutes, the
noble lerd, in the remaining five, gave no answer at all to
the purpose. ( Hear, hear.) As the hon. member had
stated, no one disputed the right of the Portuguese govern-
ment to make the decree ; but the question was whether
the British government had been dealt with honourably
or properly in the affair, and whether it was incumbent on
us to tell the Portuguese government that it was our
opinion the people of this empire wished very much to
know on what principle it was that money and strength
had been expended in carrying on the long protracted
and very uninteresting contest in Portugal ? (Hear,
hear.) As far as could be ascertained, the interference of
this government was altogether uncalled for by the great
body of the Portuguese nation, whose general feeling was
that the war, so destructive to the interests of that country,
would long ago have been put an end to but for the in-
trigues and interference of the English administration.
That very morning it was announced that four powers
--England, France, Spain, and Portugal—had made a
treaty for the purpose of settling the affairs of Portugal,
that very morning arrived the intelligence of this decree,
which so materially injured the commercial interests of
Great Britain. He (Mr. Baring) did not care one straw
which of the Dons sat on the Portuguese throne ; all he
had to say about the matter was this :—lf one Don was fa-
vourable to British commerce, and the other was hostile,
he would say, let the former Don " reign for ever."
( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The noble lord had confessed
the whole of his hon. friend's case, without offering any sa-
tisfactory answer. He certainly must confess that, what-
ever might be the noble lord's diplomatic talents in other
matters, the commercial interest of the country had very
far from prospered under his superintendence. (Hear. )
If the noble lord were not the most inefficient, he was, at
any rate, the most unfortunate man that had filled the Se-
cretaryship for many years. ( Hear, hear, and a laugh. )
Was the noble lord aware that, while he had been absorbed
in the miserable intrigues of Belgium, Prussia and Ger-
many had entered into a treaty (the Prussian Custom Re-
gulations) which had the effect of shutting us out of those
countries? (Hear, hear.) Here was another great branch
of British commerce ruined through the negligence of the
Minister. This was not the only case in which the foreign
policy of Ministers had been absurd and mischievous. He
had occasion last year to make a representation to the house
with reference to the conduct of the French, who appeared
to be on the point of getting the monopoly of the Channel
fishery by driving every English fisherman away. (Hear. )
Lord PALMERSTON said the French government
had denied the facts charged.
Mr. BARING said, if he was rightly informed, no
grea, time had passed since fourteen poor English fisher-
men's vessels, which had drifted on the French coast,were
seized and carried into Granville, although French vessels
coming to our ports were always well received.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Frenchgovernment de-
nied the truth of this statement.

Colonel EVANS rose to order. He apprehended
that if the subject on which the hon. member pro-
posed to move was in relation to the motion already made
for the house resolving itself into a committee, he
should have a right to proceed, but that if it went to
the passing of a censure either on this or some other
Government, he could not be entitled to precedence.
The SPEAKER said that if the question was
put to him, he was bound to decide it. Accord-
ing to the forms of the house and parliamentary
law, any gentleman was at liberty to tnove an amend-
ment upon any question before the house, and there was

Mr. BARING said no doubt the French government
denied it, and if the noble lord waited till that govern-
ment confessed to having done wrong, he would have to
wait long enough. The head of the Board of Admiralty
must know that the refusal of government to afford pro-

tection to our fishermen in the Channel,hadalready thrown ! what were considered unfavourable conversiOns eg
almost all the Channel fishery into the hands of the Dutch • Cents. into Life Annuities.
and French fishermen. . (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Baring) Lord ALTHOTeP, in reply, :poke in so low
had been down to Colchester to make inquiries, and he that'we heard Ithervery imperfectly. We tuiders'
spoke of these facts with certainty. i to say that it was riot the intention of Governuli
a
Mr. POULETT THOMSON said, the hon. member pose a negotiation for a loan for the West indto
had attributed all the mischief to ministers not following With respect to them, it had been proP°.-,,ed
,nns
his advice about the equalization of duties in 1831. What an aegement with the Bank to pay three even
that proceeding had to do with this decree, he (Mr. P. dred thousand pounds due to them in A_!=glr,at it
Thomson) was at a loss to understand; it was altogether garded the other question, it was tettv, in ~.
distinct from the treaty of Methuen. He-regretted what been supposed (it was not proved) ti bat
had been done, but at the same time could not but observe life annuities on ages above eighty, the
~ as the
that the ministry of Portugal had only been acting on the : got the annuities gained an advantage. ."'the country
same principle which England had adopted for years. We ! periment had gone, and had been proved, bad been
• but this .. ,
had granted no exclusive privileges, and had no right to i rather, if anything, been gainers , he should
! demand them. The hon. member for Essex had censured lives not so old. As far as he could judge,a,
manner,
shoismAelajaerrstayn'sgegmoveenrnt,metnhto,
ttgbeheauhsee itretardettnedot ctoome
satyo i
olderthat ilfivetsheastv:eelsl were selected syeolennetge,derin
tthhee
harususatt., woi
1.!
however,those
the
optr
ibeenneip
principal
erryeass successful. esosffii this believed,Hfaeilore si,as I
svoemryefeaiaseesonveartfioers
whothe wantedpublie
A f tue
because the notiations had not been commenced on an life annuities examined the church-ye-no ° tees
I
1 earlier day. lie (Mr. P. Thomson) had devoted some pet isaes to find out those families the inen'seket
attention to the question of the fisheries, and, from his had died at the greatest age, and they then -
own own observation, he could
_s_peak as to the difficulties Lying member of one of such families. (et I`., 7
lin which it was involved. (Hear.) There were mixed was no proof, however, that these lives wielk!' he
up with it, amongst other intricacies, some questions of others. (Laughter.) The first step whc':.e 010
I international law, and the whole combined rendered it, as being informed of the effect as regarded tfoala
I he had described it, a matter exceedingl difficult of solu- i was to order that in no more instances roles
tion. No sooner was his noble friend informed of the corn- Ibe granted on lives above 65 years of age, "
plaints of the fishermen than he made representations to ; seeking the annuity were himself older. s between
the French Government, requesting that some means 1 - Mr. BARING said that the differenceresult that
might be adopted by which an amicable settlement might i picked lives and the ordinary lives gave a nio OP°.
be entered upon. It had been asked, why should we be so : astonishing. He did not see why the sabot, tins
&
anxious to form treaties with France, when she showed should not be made with lives of 65 as had
herself so unwilling to afford us equal advantages? and it , lives of 80. said '
had been added that we had sacrificed our trade with For- 1 Lord ALTIIORP (as we understood),oo
tugal to induce France to relax in her commercial system, • government tables had been calculated on
but that she would not consent to any alteration in her lives.
us l'
to'icioen‘vs•-easrt nthfoerit.iit!c,
system. He (Mr. P. Thomson) must on the other hand ; Mr. FOSTER referred to the vario a
declare that France had made some very considerable corn- ; by the fundholders as a reason why the le' in,
mercial advances. An inquiry had been instituted by the I
endeavour to reconcile themselves to theirt
Government of France, the result of which was a report, The resolutions were then agreed to, ant the
al ,
and already that report had been laid on the table of the ' ing resumed, the Chairman brought " the
to SC'
French Chamber. The recommendation it contained was was ordered to be received on Monday nexaeeeed
that certain duties of considerable importance to this coun- on the motion of Lord Althorp, it was 6
try should be lowered. (Hear.) The report further re- : house, on its rising, should adjourn. RILL.
commended, that in case the French Chamb: r should not T
POOR LAWS' AMENDMES . bill,
be sitting, and it was desirable to make any alteration, the • .
Government should have given to it the power of remov- On the
the rep. '
ing by ordonnance duties on prohibited articles. (Hear.) Colonel EVANS complained that ittion•
motion for the second reading et. this ,
He would ask was this no evidence of an advance ? Then, would effect a total alteration in the con!' ef the
what was stated on the 'Silk Committee which sat some ,
years ago? Did it not appear, that the great complaint of . not attempted to wade through the entlref them a'
much ° • saton,
the the subject, but he had read so 0 eels ,
ihe silk manufacturers in this country was, that they could
not compete with foreigners in the manufacture of silk, be- . (erred to the abuses which were
first
relief'
these ~
Staten' evils
cause France monopolized her raw silk ? Now, last year : 'Modes of redress proposed. The ' and n'
there was a considerable exportation of this material out of . stated to be the system of out-of-doe jai int
France. There were other articles with respect to which
the representations of this Government had been adopted. ' 2 'a - Were sat
Iron and cotton twist had been recommended for change. The next defects
a the present . t system
1,,1 the
said to be I rincip oduced by magister ,a to
Several ether articles had been recommended for change.
But when he looked at the present state of feeling in France sponsibility of select vestries. ll' f° eaten - .
from the laws of settlement and b
on the subject, he must say he was convinced that whether other causes assigned, to accouut for the .
to exet,
the Government were disposed or not to follow up thatwere stated
raliza • misery which
non and
•eferrea
course, they would be compelled to do so by the voice of nu) •ht not be i ,
the French people ; the country at large desired to see these would ask, whether these nug,
(Hear, bear' per in ~
principles extended and carried into full extent. eaeses, at least in some degree •
Mr. G. F. YOUNG was astounded by the argument they might not partly arise from the unfair on the
raveled taxation
pa
if
used by the noble lord (Palmerston). The noble lord the poor were treated as reg,ar
her
the nicuwie Pet
contended that, inasmuch as British commerce maintained of general consumption? whether
its ,hafret_ e
evi
a superiority over other nations, it was a matter of perfect btiya tsherecorrtslra
whethermdonoorhasedine '
portion orathethm
indifference to us whether we lost or preserved the advan-
no't be astutlibuterd t th neglect a the in?
' ..' (Hear,
tages that we
.possessed. (Hear, hear.) This might be ath • the aort oef pp etas'ee' points
very convenient argument for the noble lord, but the He poor, on . p
d fi dno allusion to these, on the
people of this country—the merchants, manufacturers, and e was surprise to n
submitted to the houstt.hey
were
shopkeepers—he would find, would repudiate it as adverse voluminous reports
icould
state, that
measure.
to their interests, and as very bad logic. He recollected of his constituents
~dim' pposd to the
...
that his hon. friend the member for Essex (Mr. Baring)
place at the time of the proposed alteration in the wine Whig, Tory, and Radical
t vo or three public
d also been resent at A
pinion e
stated, almost prophetically, on the debates which took hadwhich the 0 • that
bastard}, al
found
di
iyie a
at .
eainst
numerously attended,
duties, that he did not expect the proposed change would 1 a Central Board. (n a
e '
to -
provoke a retaliation on the part of Portugal at that time, it which propose(
b - this measure p !
Pru7t the power
only did the house 3
but he had apprehensions as to the consequences in case commissioners its own powfear, to
_re. These
the liberal party ever obtained the ascendancy in Portugal. those
f the three Estates of
only
Empire.
to legislate, but f
The noble lord replied that he admitted it was possible thority 0 t
were authorised notos
this commission
man the Vice-President of the Board of Trade also stated
Portugal might impose the restrictions anticipated, but he mss oners .
and „.ho comp Two
bishops, .wo
did not think she would do so. The right hon. gentle- ,l,i -
evv (Hea extraordinary . ...„,,,a ,
th h ,..
brristers. And was such
krainst the bill, but more particular)}' a.e r bean
w°l- the correction of the gross
that in his opinion no such course would be followed. The this sufficient fur the
With regard to what viva
predictions of his hon. friend had been verified to the rite a.
e stated to exist?
l• f he would on
.y,
letter. very which wer .
d in relation to out-of-door re ie ,
• r aw a
ose time eiven for the (loan,
Mr. WARRE wished the right hon. gentleman had re the shortness of the
he would move " That there
been more explicit as regarded the fisheries. He had said it, For these reasons
of the poor laws re 4
q
their
it was a question of international law. He (Mr. Warre) abuses in the administration.
1 lative enactment for their
was aware of the circumstances of the case, and he would strong and compulsory egis
c with that este ',e of
observe that he could not see any good reason why, or on rection ; but that any measure,
subvers„"hich
b utterly
what grounds of justice between two nations at peace, the which shall in its tendency
local overnment, " the
French boats should be allowed to come to our shores and representative principle a
gpa cry over .
.1
r from rate-(} tenet
cast their nets where they pleased, and our fishermen tend to withdraw all power
which shall ma d
0f
should be interfered with if they cast their nets off the
enditure of their own fund§ or
the Crown, and °
French shores. crease the influence and power of
ht not, in t
Dr. LUSHINGTON said that under the treatyof 1815
Administration for the time being, !mg
1 s some eXf
the French Government set up a claim to the exclusive nion of this house, to be adopted," unless
cannot
right of fishing on their coast. In 1817 the French Go- paramount necessity be made out,
c..?.-1---ecs_ouncomists, and t
vernment gave them the right to fish within one league. mounted by any means less objectionable,
C titution I
In consequence of representations made in 1821 to the to the free spirit of the ancient ons
then Government, the distance was extended in 1822 to ~,,ahns.,.
six miles from the coast. The result was, that our fisher- Lord ALTIIORP should have no objection to
uteri, who had been accustomed to fish nearer the coast the topics included in the resolution of the hon.
where oysters were in great abundance, thought they were lint colonel (the Member for Westminster) e(,
treated unjustly in being deprived of the right they had proper time for such discussion came; but there w%ae
enjoyed, and they did not observe the line, but, when they with
in the motion upon which he would content nit die
thought they were not watched, passed beyond it. The with a single observation. The resolution spoke of
French Government, jealous of the encroachments, and increased influence which would be added to the,
„bolt,
desirous of enforcing the regulation, omitted no opportu- and Administration for the timebeing. He( Lorde°*ott,
nity of seizing vessels within the prescribed distance, what- would only ask whether it was possible that his ‘',l_e'llottr,
ever the cause of their being there, even though they were M nisters would propose the measure now beforett!: ,eee!
driven there by the wind, or drifted there by the tide. with a view to any patronage which it might be I ev.'ibeif,
.
ter) + . las
Such then was the state of the question. He (Dr. Lush- of conferring on them? (Cheers and laugh
that the) the
ington) had never said a word to the noble lord (Pal- were an •*who thouht so, he could only sa2.:
sense et
merston) on the subject; his (Dr. Lushington's) informa- .
ynotion indeed of the policy "'
% and less
, , the
a very strange
tion did not come from the Government. He had seensubject rebel°- be
the papers, and he could say, that it was a complicated and Sir S. WHALLEY had giventhe and themh°e 6ltcle
very difficult question, involving the right of France to the house his most mature consideration'atedo,
decided) b
shadtli
) rclea ,
exclusive fishery of that line of the coast. thought upon the measure, them • As rega 010
,ent bill. t of the ,o,
Colonel EVANS said that our severe Custom Laws, Alinistre g( Continued laughter.)
under which large boats were seized by our cruisers, occa- question of settlement, will't tly right it hill, he did 110 i
stoned our fishermen to use smaller boats than were used feudal' system, it was Per 2;
it
laf
the
course he li
by the French fishermen, their Custom Laws being more himself opposed to the P. „.,, a reinn:;:otthi be aeot
fished ; but because of th. P
indulgent. Our fishermen ought to be enabled to have rd to the btu
onsidered obi
larger boats, that they might meet the French fishermen
prescribedfor himself eastaeay ia,e ent it attage
on an equality. sition with regard to the U iebt of Punish,.A, 301 (6.,,1i0
After a few words from Mr. BARING and Colonel Toes •ectionable, as it took the we b the ferai" ' the h'• re
RENS, the motion was withdrawn and the house went into think himself bound to
male delinquent,to throw it upon . e it ) added
_orate e
a Committee of Supply. must notice e_,, o `tun the co
delicate the subject, he to the Pall'! "1 P
REDUCTION OF FOUR PER CENT. ANNUITIES. of supporting her progenryeraiom to profligtahe
otheri the
Lord ALTHORP should not have to address the house This was holding
out
ao
infanticide
ioino
ah
jectiooth:
too,
at any great length in proposing the resolutions which it hand, and an inducementssay he
from thee.. The proeira
had
dtwelve n' Rut the
6 thought 0 was his duty to bring before them. The amount of the regarded the allowance sstetn, he
ractice. sou('
,D,
Four per Cent. Annuities did not exceed 10,700,000/., principle laid down
second reading,sehlih, he Ira, op;
operation could be effected much easier, and the govern- main objection to the
entr_ A ,
al boar- , ,rty, as we (Ilear'e
and in proposing their reduction he might say, that the limited a period in which to reduce it t Y.he bill w_ cotlif
ment would be less inconvenienced in making the arrange- establishment of the central
to the Pr°l"the lard' the see ,t
ment than on former occasions. This being the case, he dent, would-be destrue ofdeseend lapel the t
eounteY , eutlaY -r elethiel
bonus to induce the holsters of the Stock to accept his Could the government , „s detailreoee'sion ocu..a:
case ,
should not consider himself justified in offering any great versive of the constitutoilinthalelibertY
terms. In point of fact, he offered no real bonus at all. intendence of this fund Intft of p f ve'ael, per
iteinalgth-etio
There would, however, be some advantages derived from ; measure out the Vra_nances_faed on I'beodied pain
placing the amount in question in a larger fund ;it would according to all the et metv,e (11,r„"the able- laughter
a.
be more negotiable arid more valuable on that acCount ; The flannel for the old
as the foonio.th. (Lou')
silould;
another advantage, which he admitted would not be very breadth, just as much .
and stre
7operly, the%);ieh he opt
considerable, was, that by transferring the amount to the depended on his healtn
managed Pal with wtio be al°r it
Three-and-a-Half per Cents., it could not be paid off till To have these matters in the part,
e in itself', isedh., f0..0
1840. The saving to the public that would result from left to the rate-paYers'w webaletulasYeidatenwto.radoada;antlit?ireerF3oo
this arrangement would be more than 53,000/. a year. connected—a parish ).___
kainuggel:°ttner ':)ftlige
systetn'vhy bol t'sa'? (.
His offer was this—to holders of 4 per Cents., for every a kingdom (Laughter
and
ronuiatio . its eepe . it,
~,,
100/. of 4 per Cents., 100/. of what were called New 3q was greater in wealth r 1
per Cents. ; the New 3% per Cents. to be added to and principalities (Contfintuhe
consolidated with the existing NeW 3% per Cents., and greater than that 0
annum.
ect these. ft', wltt tli,,
the holders of 4 per Cents. to receive the half-year's duced by 50,000/.
Perts suppress his opint to ,mollonee
not to he liable to redemption till the sth January, 1840; parish, by the representative
dividend on the 10th of October next,- and the first pay- sioners, in their. repor
a, he
a stated
aieilegete es? igel
ment on the 31,4 per Cents. in January next. He thought hear.) He doubted,
.a e was goods,
fa the juf:arce
it impossible to make ebetter offer than this. His lord- respect, whether that heed ;
vet 'n the übjeeted.eetral b The
ship concluded with moving his resolutions, which were to Rawer proposed to be v i 0„ were ap°o°or ff.raeteeooM3s r•
seat the contra 0 to/
the following- effect:— _ nee. , ate ,
.. That all holders of Four per Cents., commonly called of the land,' they would , repeal act
rd, a sea' ' , mot'
Four per Cent. Annuities, .1826, who shall not signify could not, by a bit of paper' this ,et thew,' mild lrit-ii,li
' their dissent, shall have for every 100/. of the said Four per persons who were to
.o_l7l;w' but le jobto,on the p.ri1,,,,,i00
Cents. 100/. of New Three and a-half per Cent. Annui_ reason for their acts : trte,2ie 0109 8
iether, if the proyousidt,
not saY that of Par ' assig if ,
ties, the dividend upon which shall be payable sth January it had yet no motto, the .•:_einea toi i, th,....ke, peinejel,
and July in each year. appropriate. This bill e
this
a ll'i.'"‘ual intere-ot.
" The said new Three and a-half per Cent. Annuities that the rich stone weret this "-was as nil' their Opel
shall be added to, and consolidated with, the existing of the poor laws; butt ha; ss.° &mine. hear.)
.ere
New Three and a-half per Cent. Annuities, and shall not as the poor man who Pat. ring t. 4 (Hear' he IP' il
be liable to redemption until sth January, 1840. vou.4 o . citli t tee'
perhaps more, in entice a° pal . „steal lof 0 ,0,1,
" The holders of Four per Cent. Annuities, 1826, to re- than the wealthier one we" to be in'. &e,, awl, esr-o, to..
. ceive the half-year's dividend which will be due thereon commissioners, too, t:.
we
t elloWaneete,
etloru t°h4g. me ti?.
. on the 10th of October, 1834 ; and the first dividend— fixing salaries, rates 0 . , the kinn
_., ena . Sheer ,
namely, one qua.ter of a year's dividend to be payable one-tenth of the poor-raterithose, , 800, po ~,
, upon the said New Three and a-half per Cent. Annuities, in the enlargement of w°, ,neiture °`, was the 00, et,' i
on the sth January, 1835. 41 • etc. eere exegete
order and control an. el ,_ e „be
~
who tese appoe ei.i
" Books will be opened at the Bank of England on Another power to which 5
le mouth
willel
all the jeas-hae jaeh",.
I Thursday, Bth May, to Wednesday, 23th May, both days committing to gaol for 01
Wile', dire' 10ey "„bo"
inclusive, for receiving notices, ty themselves or their cious to their authoritylfer._
ww I:
11
riog attOutterViie 11.
agents of those persons who may be desirous of dissenting. these three commisitt)fre:
1 pettifOg were Ito t ntasse. •i
" Persons who shall be out of the United Kingdom three tails each, with
e e Such Powersaobtet,,,awilegi, hoe,
during the whole of such period shall in such case be per- to each. (
‘°ll' °-.
1 liberty. fleo„e dal' Lueelieve- veriii
miffed to express their dissent at any time before the 6th sive of ;CUTlStitUtila
„vie all in ve
...A NO.! of ti:i ,
Julv, 1834 ; and any person who may be in any other part priety of paying the paist,i;us together• eeop'r'epor'• it I si:
of the world except Europe, to be permitted to express of 8,000 or 9,000
oper
i the alteratio7 t ea.
b t thee......tha',as hil
such dissent at any time before the Ist of March. 1835. ever,- that many
) He helieV, ti (ileamaYint it e' 41 ti
" Persons not signifying their dissent within the pe- good. (Hear,
ihmedar.
done touch getshear)-; postpelle`ta the
nods before-mentioned will be deemed to have assented.
commissioners
meliorations (14"or'ure weir-result fj, e 61:
Persons signifying their dissent within these periods will led to manynaion,
that if the rileo, , w0u1i.,115 of the P"11
be paid off in such order, at such time, and in such man- deliberate opi ,
taer advantaceuegestlu old ' „p;
next session! maii o .
of the ' 't he 'was fleet eieee
ner, as parliament may direct."
voluntary adoption a many in far .1 ~at r seo etie
On the question being put by the SPEAKER, .
live commissioners. (Hear.) In all tint
wer 0.0 rele
Mr. BARING did not rise. to oppose the proposition,
far, and he thought that AA with a li(! sri° j. ot-ot
which he thought was perfectly fair and equitable ; but lie
g°
s° ar'invest the Secretary of titan` .
,oe a tl..eif an ba'ore
or
, wished to ask one or two questions of the noble lord. In as to
aircular to direci the ado,Prel But. a iee.ealtlea, t
the first place, he desired to know whether it was the in- !
I"tt-mis as to the allowance systent; '
lit that °:hoie 00 veitc!
b "c administr
i,,,,
tention of the noble lord in the course of the present year t
'VA vital importance, one ,tf ' tnq ;
on wjeicit threa i)ri e,'
advance to the West India planters? He took it for
ft'he labouring classes, the evidence_,,ainiorrioc-ot de
granted that no such intention existed, inasmuch as such !II
minous that the pile of volumes e ni
h foot c). „lore time
course would hardly be fair to the new holders of this .
1 'n heiht the column at tt • .ose to° •
hat rive i
to enter into any negotiation respecting the loan for the, lb
ions were removed, he thfox.g___ the h was 001
, stock. He also would beg the noble Lord to state )`hat
,the
~,____ of Commons
ought 0 1
measures his Majesty's Government had taken to .top I..i.nuee

ffsidlis Of 3 14
so low a' 06,4
tualerstood
eminent to le
; India plater;
oscd tomae,
iillions five,hl:
Llautoffuisna .
t.t0231.t0,..;1;i
e tb
to • partrt's,..!v
5 far as
the coontry
his b
olal
nrean:l 'e(l°bu manner,ale: eibdn3b
es3‘::
their stoc'i
of the diffe7,
,inbeis of oil,' e
d so,
seleete de
laugh. ) 00
ere longer
eh, he teolllcef,
thoeuold:rnaitio
Sh
es between
It that `l' >—
rest], erioot
nbeneen ilall:acied
fou
rterallossoee:ll:::sldithu tch •
agreed tlis
• piLf,
r this bill,
e° to
rope,ea
- D
lie
of
tit
of the report!
f them a-c
to
o exist, wid,o,
these evil' a,
to sp#
E.e,:i[llfisiaret'e(tterrthilrhnoin)e,eetceadeoaresNfrti:tilt9P:l°tltl'ihrti;tini'e.tb:ll-atillli'1;6::,::
,oilrer°''iirutaeaell:llb°lfl:s je',niii:einni7ta nloctatdet .IsPlehurnfclunr
ion
ere i
ieetin
was unanT:p
inst that P.--.;ot
.ar, hear') .to
e to deleg a
alk-
ke power Pou .„
.e. These e°ls
;slate, but al6°
nmission vest,
pi
hops, two poht::
was such auth'',
the gross abe.o,
to what was r.rx4
would obj.t.;.,
doing away. of
Chat the esis
• laws require!
nt for their re!
ostensible vie
eoeb
iinsicvot
ne
t,r
mated t
te a
j;o e ff:
t,.1
e ' 1
)me extrem:;,
I cannot be s`4l'
and less oPt°,o,e
ititution of
tetion to
e hon. and the
lster) \rhea
ow%

t:

motion: - Ile felt it-his duty to move that the bill be rear
a s- (end time this day six months.
• The SP EA K ER-:-Who seconds the amendment ?
Mr. GROTE rose.—
i The SPEAKER—Do You second the amendment?
Mr. GROTE--Most certainly not.
„ Mr.. Alderman WOOD then seconded the amendment.
The question being put,
Mr. GROTE rose to express his hope that the hous(
would consent to read the bill a second time, and reserv,
for the proper stage all discussion upon its details. (Hear.
There certainly never was aeasubject which gave him :
e
, ater degree of interest than that under consi leration.
,lhe abuses in the present system of
poor laws arp-!ared ti
, too great and too manifest to require that h, shoul(
use any arguraent with a view of showing that at :Ilevent,
Some change—if not that cha-rge which the bill contem.
• Plated,---WaS requisite for their future due and efrective ad
rrninistration. If evidence, however, was required of hin
support of such his opinion, he thought it
was to b(
• ")Ind in a short passage in the report of the poor law corn-
ra'ssioners, in which it was stated that, out of the 7,033,000/.
• annually expended in the maintenance of the poor, no
than a twentieth part went towards providing labour
...for the able-bodied labourers, the remainder being devotee
•'" the support of infirm and aged. Than that fact a greater
oof of the pressing necessity for an immediate revision o
,g Poor law system could not, in his opinion, be adduced.
oe hecessity-of legislation, then, being conceded, th,
tz• ' Ilitestion was, whether the principle of the bill then uncle!
tr.. consideration was such as the urgency of the occasion re-
d? As far as he was capable of judging of thatprin-
he approved of it ; and although he was prepares
l° admit that some of its details might be improve(' !Pen, he did not hesitate to give it his support in the
IPresent stage, and at the same time to recommend i•
.lems iestly to the favourable consideration of the house.
tineheat.) He would at present instance bu
be °f the details in which he thought the bill susceptibl,
a7provement. Its machinery appeared to him to be
(wile ing as far as adequate accountability was concerned.
vcoua' hsar. ) He would not then state what remedy h.
into cuprose to sppy the deficiency, but when t cam,
rnmitpotee, asu hel hoped it would, he trustedi to se,
aTptetriaor, effectual means of securing accountabilit)
In some of the objections taken to the bill b)
btheepon. gentleman who preceded him (Sir S. Whalley
member
he saw very little meaning. The honourabl.
sevemroer, among other matters, had laboured out a very, pi.ce of vituperation against the proposed appoint-
tr,l2teof commissioners, which he concluded by suggesting
4' the authority which the bill sought to rest in a centre
!f yboard should be intrusted to the Secretary of State. Now
not directly, at least indirectly, such authority was veste,
in the Secretary of State, for it was expressly stated ii
the bill that the commissioners should send all their reso-
lutions and proceedings for the approval of that higl
functionary before they were acted upon. The bill, there-
fore, in point of fact, proposed the very course which the
fears of the hon. member as to the possible proceedings o
the new commissioners led him to suggest. The hon.
Mernbar seemed to entertain great apprehension respecting
the appointment of commissioners at. all • but while doing
so he had altogether omitted to show that' there was any
Way of getting out of the great and pressing difficulties o
the present system of poor laws than by the appointment
(of such a board as that the bill proposed to establish.
./lear, hear.) There was one good effect which In
thought would result from the bill, and that was the unior
Of several small parishes for poor law purposes. Of tin
ttsefulness of such unions there could be no doubt,
and as
_
la,r as he was capable of judging the provisions of the bill
,i,htwould bring about this desirable end most effectually.
,4,4t;iheon. member for Marylebone seemed to suppose than
b„, s were to be abolished altogether by the presen-
, tilou! but he (Mr. Grote) denied that small was the inten-
ar,2oof its framers. (Hear, hear, hear.) Althougl
litving •in a certain degree of the authority proposed ts,
t,7 t.e rusted to the board of commissioners, he was free tc
to ensst he thought that board occupied rather too pro-
as a part in the bill. (Hear, hear.) Entertaining
Some
mesa
a very strong feeling of the urgent importance o
bueti.iniiaboeuariunr: being introduced for raising the character o'
poor in general (Hear, hear, hear), am
featuringei as lie did that this measure in all its mater is
viw, was calculated to effect all the objects he had in
order he had used to the utmost his very feeble powers is
r to induce the house to g
Iv
o into a committee. He wa,
Small aware that by taking this course he might incur
he,,,degree of unpopularity with the constituency whit}
the honour to represent, and from whom a petitioi
I% nst the bill had that day been presented to the house.
he wag always painful for him to differ from those to whon
.. owed the situation he held in that house ; but, wit}
revs_
erect to urging what were his feelings upon measures o,
olif7Bl,sitY, were he for so doing to be deprived to-morroo:
stl;"at honour which he was as ro as any Ilan
his prea
, still could he not refrain from exprtesas
Li..-qtlitients. (Hear.) He was quite. sure
.h t wg-hilst tin
-ministration of the poor laws continued what it now wa
h'--; whilst it °wnas left in the hands of those who now.adini-
i'bstered them with such a rude and defective organizatica
1,."11,ar, hear),e so long as that organization was continued
ap,•".iteh was adapted to a period when there were no poor
no difficulties to contend with, so long, he said, a
-"at organization was unimproved there could be no hnpe
31Whatever of rescuing the population from that degradatioi
,frornr. . those calamities to which they were doomed.
-,LANEY said the bill would have the effect o
Inabl •a.
t'it the independence of numerous clatses of in%
e persons. He would beg leave to state a few fact
which had not vet been adverted to in the course of tha
eetuhssei°n• The house had had numerous complaint-
, great depression of the agricultural interests
he would venture to say of the burdens taha.
I:..,,Pressed the industry of the ccuuttrye, not
ts°aehed in importance to that wbitehhe h house was n(I):a
Out to discuss. The amountof poor-rates had in.
tTued, not gradually, but with a rapidity by far greater
'\fart any other burden with which thbe countm was loaded
any ntlemen conceived thatbecause the nomina.
fountgewas the same as it had been a few years ago
therefore the real amount was not increased. If the)
ked fairly at the case they would find the proportionate
,otr"tirdeenas had bte.eon exceedinglyfromayaugmented, and that the)
d to day. In 1750 the pool
Nes amountedngeni only 700,0001., rnin 1785 to 2,000,000/..
to
.ou3 to 4,000,000/., in 1815 to 6,000,000/., in 1821
.'OO,OOO/ and in 1832 to 7,000,000/. and a little
111-e' If hon" embers were to look to the value o'
timet, the ine • ms
of poor rates, from 1821 to the present
tnT, would be found to be not less than fifty per Cent,
$e asked that the nominal amount was the same.
r asc4ed, did this increase pay for any improvedcobndi-
l?f °` the peasantry ? By no means, for there had een
dctqreciation of character, and of circumstances or con-
it ;11. By returns which had been laid before. the house.
or,PPeared that in proportion to the increase in the amount
uurden', had been the increase of the proportion o:
r`OPers to.. the number of population. In the 43d year o.
svuearge 111. the proportion of paupers to the population
1k6,1",13' as one to nine, in 1811 it was as one toeight, in
tear;4l Was as one to seven. In several counties. in that
amounted to one-third, and in some parishes tc
exn'.„74l and in one • h every inhabitant was a pauper
wa'seri; the clergyman, the clerk, and one landowner. It
cob duty orgovemment to take such a subjec.t ir4c
IF32reration. The church rates and local taxation in
from a.pounted to 9,500,00011 and yet wheat had fallen,
LtteteBls to the present flay, from 90s. to 60s.
o 6s. e OTC
°S. t ther f the burden now amounted to front.
crease of the pound. But in proportion to
.the.
1811 PauPers had ben the increase of criminal .
n-
;),000, the criminals had amounted to 1,300, in 1816 to
to 19,,„,1n 1821 to 13,000, in 1826 to 16,000, and in 1831
terit. ;4-j• So that there had been an increase of 33 per
erease'n Population, whilst in crime there had been
an in-
ties , 400 per cent. Let the house regard those coun-
krev!here the poor laws were well administered, and corn -
nist,t/ini to the counties in which they were badly admi-
Let11,,,,,',1 ea. them
.compare the southern with the
w..4_inern parts a the kingdom. Sussex the poor laws
Ir'Pe administered wors. whilst in Northumberland they
lere-administered bvitr, than in any part of the king
ill tile f;i:t
..nty there hid been 1,60 agCI
,`,e latter only 500, in five years. This arose
fro, the
;icletice of making up- ages out of the poor rates, lie
not allude to the machinery of the till, but he
• I,',ltd to the pith and principles of it, and he thought it
fAessary to have such a bill, in order to do away with the
thnf which he complained. The remedies proposed by
Was 11.111 were-not new or untried remedies. The proposal
terr4llllPly to return fo the 43d of Elizabeth, or, in other
to turn to the character of the poor laws as they
t -xisted in the north of England, or the south of Schoatd-
tO'hole parishes its other parts of the country
• cqler e experiment, and no evils of. poor laws had any
• cutest The poor in such
'lll
e Qtrl Paupers into. contributors to the savings banks.
parishes had been con-
Ato then
,try had witne.sed almost a servile war.
the ,;41 been sent into several counties tio
dputastoiipi
ose evils, iuid it was found that the crimes begun,
tetisrd ,• r,ishes where the poor were so distressed and.op-
"..ll/4:1,: net they had been Irut up as labourers by auction..
~14..oystera was enougi mike a man's blood boil, and
; `,!O be put down ait h the strong hand of goyernmen.t.
.4tra 'I•AN could n tconceive that the powers to be
l'enie3rit'd to the commissioners could occasion any incon-
*Pre
tee, or create any well-founded alarm. The powers
to4"ainly large, but they were not intrusted to a body
b'oidd vv
were in a situation to abuse them. Thel bille
riot 'lf %bee giving up to the commissioners any
1.61, wc011)eoPle ; but, on the contrary,. thesecomnairigs-
have to limit the power now exercised over
we: Poor to
by overseers and magistrates
If '.e.„ sent tje now sent to -gravel-pits to work, and. they
!,ho)",,q 'lid ZterY thing. that was
.degrading and afflictive.
that , the 0, maintain their children as overseers might
Bower l.'seers delivered them over to slavery, and all
of t l4trUSted to the commissioners would effect
• Nsthe bill to
ucheek such abuses. There were several points
4Fd the did not approve of, but these could be dis-
OF eommittee.
wa the Nu thithLTT thought that, at the
.present.,se
s• the e house had nothing to do with details :wit
ghoul Cof the bill alone that was under consi-
-47'4 with respect to that principle -he thought it a
t'iilik'sted urea With
t
so lun ° Part so suddenly with laws that had
es and g, tided
disturb all the connections of fa-
iutended beneficence of the ancient poor