The Sun.
London, England, 1851-04-16 00:00:00

EVENING, APRIL l6) 1851.

Select Committee, let him abrogate the functions of a
Government altogether, and confess he was so weak as
to Co unable to control what belonged to England.—
(Hear, hear.) The Ministry was responsible for the
government of the country. That House was not to take
upon itself the administration of affairs, but was to stand
separate and was to be the judge in the last resort over
the Administration. Let not the House then cede to a
Committee of their own body those functions of govern
ment which the Noble Lord and his colleagues truly held,
but did not adorn.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who bad just sat down, follox ing to some ex-
tent the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford
University, but greatly exaggerating his views, had ex-
pressed his surprise that the Government should have
proposed: to appoint a Select Committee to consider a
very grave and important point connected with the colo-
nial policy of this country. He (Mr. Labouchere) must
say that he was astonished that such an argument should
have been employed by two Gentlemen so well acquainted
with the history of our colonies. He remembered, in the
case of Canada, at the time of a very interesting crisis
in the affairs of that colony, that Mr. Huskisson, a Co-
lonial Minister not of small repute, acting under no less
a person than the Duke of Wellington, asked the House
to appoint a Select Committee to consider the whole
affairs of Canada. He (Mr. Labouchere), though then
a young Member, served upon that Committee, and he
well remembered what their proceedings and
recommendations were. lie believed that they
were some of the most important recommenda-
tions that had ever been made. They pointed
out an entire change of our policy with regard to Ca•
nada. Those recommendations had been to a great
extent acted upon by that and successive Governments,
and in his conscience he believed that to them in a great
measure we owed it that we still retained Canada as a

colony of this country.—(Hear, hear.) A similar course
was adopted on perhaps the most difficult and important
colonial question that it had ever fallen to the lot of
a Government to deal with—he meant the condition of
the slave population in the West Indies. The whole
course of legislation with regard to slavery in those
colonies was the fruit of the anxious investigations of
that Committee. Slave emancipation was ushered in,
supported, and, in fact, carried by the authority of that
Committee.—(Hear, hear.) Again. the same course had
been pursued with reference to the apprenticeship ques-
tion, when the Colonial Secretary—a man not wanting
in firmness and energy—Lord Stanley, he believed—did
not think he was lowering the authority of his office by
asking for a Select Committee. Unless they said, then,
that the affairs of the colonies were to be ieft entirely to

the Colonial-office, without any care or solicitude on the
part of the House, he did not see what reflection there
could be upon the Government for asking from time to
time, as occasion required, for the assistance of
Select Committees to consider important political
questions.—(Hear, hear.) Again, in the case of the
Cape, some of the many courses of policy with re-
ference to the treatment of those aborigines had been
recommended by a Committee of the House of Commons
of which he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Gladstone) had been himself a member. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had argued as it the only danger to be
apprehended at the Cape of Good Hope was that the
white population might be overwhelmed by the coloured
population; but the Committee of which the Right
Hon. Gentleman was a member took a very different
view of the subject. He ( Mr. Labouchere) believed that
if the white population were left to themselves in that
colony, without any assistance from this country, al-
though they might at first be exposed to danger from
the natives, and there might be scenes of bloodshed and
devas ie. ion,the ultimate danger was that the extermination
of the aborigines would ensue. That was the view taken
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite as a member of
the Committee. [Mr. GLADSTONE—No, I opposed it ]
If that were so, he (Mr. Labouchere) must admit that
the personal argument, so far as the Right Honourable
Gentleman was concerned, fell to the ground; but he
was entitled at least to claim the authority of the ma-
jority of the Committee as in favour of such
opinion. The whole tenour of the report of
the Committee of 1837 was this—that it was the special
and sacred duty of the Government, and the
Parliament to exercise their authority wherever British
colonies were planted in juxtaposition with great masses
of aboriginal inhabitants, to prevent the frightful conse-
quences that must ensue from allowing the passions of
the white and black population to be excited and arrayed
against each other, thus leading to dreadful scenes of
carnage and desolation. He begged to remind Hon.
Gentlemen what were the questions really before them.
The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Adderley) had pro-
posed that Commissioners should be sent out to the Cape
of Good Hope. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought the
general sense of the House was against that proposition.
—(Hear, hear.) He considered, that if the Governor
and the other chief officers of that colony deserved the
confidence of the Government, they were at least as
much to be depended on as any Commissioners who could
be sent out to make inquiries—(Hear, hear)—and the
necessary effect of sending out Commissioners would
be to weaken the authority of the Governor and other
official persons at a moment when it was of the utmost
importance that their authority should be strengthened
and upheld in every possible way. The other proposal
before them was that of his Noble Friend (Lord J.
Russell), that a Committee of that House should be
appointed to consider the whole of the complicated
and difficult question connected with the relations be-
tween this country and the tribes on our South African
frontier. The Government had been charged with en-
deavouring to evade responsibility in making this propo-
sal, but they in no degree shook off responsibility in
requesting the aid of a Committee, not to consider what
measures were requisite to meet an urgent and instant
state of things, for that was the duty of the Executive
Government, but to consider deliberately, and to report
to the House, what should be the fixed and settled po-
licy of this country with regard to the question of the
Cape frontier. That was no more a subject peculiarly,
and solely, and exclusively belonging to the Executive
Government, than were the questions relating to Canada
in 1837, or the questions as to the Weet Indian slavery,
with regard to which Committees of that House had
been appointed; and he thought it was a subject upon
which the Government, without giving up the least por-
tion of that responsibility which attached to them, might
justly and properly ask for a Committee to assist and
give weight to their deliberations. These were the

grounds on which the Government proposed the ap-
pointment of a Committee. He thought them as suffi-
cient and complete as those upon which the appointment
of any similar Committee had ever been demanded, and
he hoped the House would not refuse to aid and encou-
rage the Government in the course they had pursued by
consenting to the amendment of his Noble Friend.
Mr. HUME had never heard a speech in that House
more at variance with facts than that of the Right
Hun. Gentleman—(A laugh)—who seemed to forget that
the whole policy of the Government towards the colonies
had, within the last few years, undergone a change.
Instead of keeping up the system of governing in Down-
ing-street, the desire now was to git rid of the colonies,
and to allow them to govern themselves.—(Laughter,
and Hear, hear.) After the debate a few nights ago on
the motion of his Hon. Friend (Sir W. Molesworth), a
newspaper of great influence charged all those who ad-
vocated the opinions of the Hon. Baronet with a desire
to separate the colonies from England, and so far to
weaken this country; but the object of the policy ad-
vocated by the Hon. Baronet and by himself was to
render the colonies better affected and more devoted
towards England than they were now, to relieve this
country from the expense of maintaining them, and to
enable them to conduct their own affairs, which they
could do much more satisfactorily to themselves than
it could be done for them in Downing-street. The
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) called upon
the House to take care of the white population in the
colonies; but the white population, who were the best
judges of the matter, had no fear of any danger, for
they asked to be allowed to manage their own local
affairs. The colonists said, " We have perfect con-
fidence; we believe the disturbances and wars which
have taken place were wars of aggression; we believe
the natives will observe treaties, and that we can
conduct our relations with them with perfect security."
Why, there was a penalty attending severity and oppres-
sion towards the natives. In such a case the natives
would revolt; it would be necessary to resort to coercion;
coercion entailed expense, and that expense would make
the colonists very cautious how they entered upon wars.
He had been informed within a month past by gentle-
man from the Cape of Good Hope that the colonists
apprehended no difficulty if they were allowed to manage
their own affairs, and that they were prepared to under-
take the task. Tho colonists were not answerable for
the measures of the colonial governor appointed by this
country, and it would be hard and creel to call upon them
to defray the expense of a war in which they were not
involved. The Noble Lord had said that the colonists
had never been ready to give cordial assistance to the
Government of this country. [Lord J. Russell was
understood to express his dissent.] He certainly under-
stood the Noble Lord to say that there had been a want
of cordiality at the Cape of Good Hope in supporting
the measures necessary for suppressing the aggression;the
but why should the colonists afford assistance
.toe
so
Government when they had been treated liken
many cattle, and had never hadHe anything
with
itto
wdaos
with their own government ?
now in the power of the House
of the Cape of
delegates from the mass of the people
of
foro r.
evil for the future, for there were in thtins cporuenvetrnyt
Good Hope, who had come hero tohse
a constitution as would unite the
four months without anything
being
do
ol en bodyo.
Toht fheeretmhrßeesi g h t
lonists, but they had been allowedw tottlreenasuacihn
Hon. Gentleman had asked
iodf, a owmi
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mitres. was
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e revers carried te_._h
or
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and he, brought
not be regulated by any
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out his own plan up
gCeylonive
adviceC om Committee t ttehee might
which the Minister denied. He (Mr. Hume) hoped the
gonhvetrbeereceiotet,d,hebtuttetheaxt
House would not agree to
would be shelving the question
. appfooirnta atwCeolvmemmiototethe;
oirt
more. But a Commission toTbheesfienrstt
tohuithgwwasas to formrequired
and would be of great
use.
a responsible Government Let the Commissioners go
out and stand betweenteaorigtnes
band the colonists,
l
and see matters properly arranged.—(Hear.) Why
should the Government defer giving responsible govern-
ment, and throwing on the colony the duty of its own
defence as soon as the war could be concluded? We
should not refuse to the colonists that which we had
pledged ourselves to give them, and which would secure
their cordial co-operation, and unite them in repressing
agression.—(Hear.)
Mr. J. BELL could not:allow the remarks of the Hon.
and Learned Member (Mr. Roebuck) to pass without
some notice, as it might be supposed that the House ac-
quiesced in principles at variance with morality, honour,
and Christianity.—(Hear, hear.) That gentleman laid
it down that it was proper to "do evil that good might
come," and he was ready to justify injustice, and held

that, because we were civilised and Christians, it was
justifiably for us to take possession of land we had not
paid for, and exterminate the people there. But who was
to be the judge which parties were the most civilized?—
(Hear, hear.) We might say that certain cottagers in a
rural district were less civilized and educated than our-
selves, and go and take possession of their village.—
(Hear, hear.) If it ware impossible to obtain foreign
possessions by other means it would be better to remain
without them than obtain them at the price of blood.
—(Cries of "Hear, bear.") But it was well known
that these aborigines were ready to sell their land at a
moderate price—(A laugh)—that they were quite open
to terms of capitulation—(A laugh)—and that there were
other means of civilzation.—(Hear, hear.) There were
principles of honour among savages. But whatever
might be the fact with regard to their disposition, nothing
could justify that bloodthirsty and rapacious spirit which
appeared to be recommended by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck).
Mr. S. HERBERT was placed, like some other Mem-
bers, in a situation of difficulty in reference to the pro-
positions before the House. The precedents cited by the
President of the Board of Trade did not appear spot_
cable. He had quoted Mr. Huskisson's Committee upoi
Canada, but the object of that Committee was quite_dis-
tinct from that moved for by the Noble Lord. That
inquire
into a Committee sought for by the colony to
into alleged grievances, the Government being, as it
were, impeached. Then there was the Committee upon
the apprenticeship question—a singularly infelicitous
precedent to quote, for the House reversed the decision
of the Committee, and got rid of apprenticeship.—(Hear,
hear.) A Committee appointed by the Government did
not offer much hope of a solution of our difficulties.
The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had said that
the country was governed by speeches. There must
be something intelligible in these [A MEMBER—Not
always.]—(A laugh.) Well, motions were sometimes
not so intelligible as they might be, and the Noble Lord's
was not. A Committee was to be appointed on the same
principle as that on official salaries; and the Noble Lord
put the report in the fire.—(Hear, hear.) Was this a
case (without reference to precedents) which would
justify the appointment of a Committee? A war was
going on; it was necessary that the Executive at the
Cape should be unshackled by any doubts as to the in-
tentions of the home Government—(Hear, hear)—and
should have clear instructions or an unfettered discretion.
—(Hear.) Of the two propositions a commission ap-
peared more rational than a Committee. A commis-
sioner would be on the spot and could tell what was
going on. With a Committee portions of the evidence
would be filtering out, and the Governor would be doubt-
ful how he was to proceed, as one or another view seemed
to prevail.—(Hear, hear.) The President of the Board
of Trade said a governor was as good as a commissioner;
he might have gone further, and said that a Govern-
ment was as good as a Committee.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. S. Herbert) should vote against any proposition of
the kind now made to the House.
Mr. BOOKER was for fair play. Ministers deserved
the encouragement of the House in this matter, and
should have his vote.—(Hear, hear.) They had shown
becoming vigour and manliness in attempting to main-
tain our great colonial empire, and he was not going to
refuse a Committee when they asked for it in this emer-
gency.—(Hear, hear.) The state of the Cape was a
question of vast difficulty, and the Government had done
all they could, in sending out an officer of great ability,
who ought to enjoy the confidence of the House.
Mr. HAWES said he would occupy the House for a
very few moments, while he called their attention to the
observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Her-
bert), who seemed to think some great evil would hap-
pen to the colony by the plan his Noble Friend had pro-
posed, and that the policy to be pursued for termieating
the war would be thereby impaired. But he had not
informed the House how that result was to follow from
the appointment of the Committee. The Government
desired to inform the gentlemen on the Committee fully
and entirely with respect to their past policy, but that
House was not the best place to communicate it in. He
was not without grounds for saying so, for when the
Noble Lord addressed them with. a full statement of his
policy, there was hardly a House present, and some of
the most distinguished speakers were absent. The policy
pursued had not been en exterminating policy, as the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, but one which would
lay the foundations for a great colony hereafter. No
doubt our early colonization was marked by the extinc-
tion of native races, but it did not follow the same result
should take place now; and in New Zealand the temper,
justice, and ability of the Governor had proved that co-
lonization could progress along with the preservation
and civilization of the natives. He earnestly hoped the
House would do justice to the Government, and give
them an opportunity of laying before a Committee all
the information in their power, to prove what had
been the policy misrepresented by Hon. Gentlemen
opposite.
Mr. ADDERLEY replied, he was surprised the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Hawes), after the experience of the last
two years, should bo in favour of a Select Com-
mittee. As to Sir Harry Smith, he wished to state he
intended no reflection whatever on him, for a more
gallant and experienced officer did not exist, but he re-
garded him and Lord Grey as exponents of a system.
A commissioner could do many things that could not be
done by a Committee. For instance, make treaties with
chiefs and wind up affairs on the spot.
The House then divided on Mr. Addorley's motion,
and the numbers were—

Ayes
Noes

Majority --70
Lord J. Russell's amendment then became the main
question, and, the House being divided on it, the num
hers were—
Ayes
Noes

128
60
Majority ... ---68
Mr. HE ADLAM moved for a Select Committee to
consider the policy of extending the law of mortmain,
so as to include personal estate, and generally to con-
sider whether any alteration should be made in the law
as it affects testamentary or other dispensations in favour
of religious, charitable, or permanent objects. The Hon.
Member explained, that his object was not to legislate
with respect to any particular portion of the community,
but to supply a defect in the law, and he pledged himself,
if the Committee should be appointed, to introduce a
practical measure.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL expressed his gratification at
the Hon. Member's declaration that his intended legis-
lation would not be directed against the Catholics in
particular.
The motion was then agreed to.
Lord H. VANE moved for and obtained leave to bring
in a Bill for abolishing the fees paid to county and other
coroners, and for providing for the payment of such co-
roners by salaries.
The Small Tenements Rating Act Amendment Bill
passed through Committee.
The Assessed Taxes Act, the Timber and Coffee Du-
ties Aot, and the resolutions of the Committee of Supply
were severally reported.
The Exchequer•bills (17,756,6001.) Bill, and the In-
demnity Bill, as amended, were severally considered.
The House adjourned at One o'clock till Monday, the
28th inst.