The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-03 00:00:00

It

which he did not think the English Members—if he
might bo pardoned the expression—(A. langh)—cared
much about understanding.—(A laugh.) After the dif-
ferent statements they had heard, he was not sure that
the Solicitor-General would not get up and tell them
that the amendment had quite another meaning than
that which had been given to it. As he did not wish to
obstruct the progress of the measure, he should with-
draw his motion for reporting progress.
Mr. T. M'CULLAGd said, when they were discuss-
ing a law epplicaole to England, and the principle of
which might he extended to leelend. it behoved them to
know exactly the positioo in which they stoed. .He
would ask the Chairman whether the amendment was ap-
plicable to the Hulce d Kiegdom or England only ?
Toe CEIAIRMAN read the terms of the amendment,
by which it appeared to be applicable to Fugland only.
Mr. T. M.CULLAGEI said he wanted w know, when
the Hon. and Learned Member for Midburst proposed
passing ala v affecting the kingdom of Eogland, whe-
ther he meant to carry out that enactment in that king.
dom alont ? If eo, he would have to add many other
clauses to the Bill.
Colonel RAWDON asked the Chairman whether a
clause which wes without the scope of the title of a Bill
could be introduced in Committee ?
The CHAIRMAN was understood to say that the
present clause was within its scope.
Mr. W ALPOLE said there were two important
questions to be considered in the present legislation.
What they had w meet was an encroachment upon the
prerogative of the Crown in one place, and the aseump-
tion of certain titles in other parts of the kingdom Tne
sole object which he had in view was to meet those
evils; and he did not inamd it .should extend beyond
the specific off awes it was calculated to meet—nem-Iv,
the constitution of a R ,neon Catholic hierarchy in
&Ireland. Having le ad his ciausete we Hon. and L awed
Member coac'uded by observing that his preamble, his
declaratory and his enecting clauses, were all trained so
as to follow each other harmoniously.
Mr. M'CULLAGLI still complained that They were
legislating without understanding or knowing what they
were doing.
The AT FORNEY-GENERAL said,. after his Hon.
and Learned Friend had said he would withdraw his
first and last clause, they could not know what he
meant ; and he thought his Hon. Friend was involving
them in greeter difficulties and inconsistencies every step
he took.---(flear, hear.)
Sir F. T HESIGER, thought the difficulties of the
judges in Ireland, if any case came before them for
decision, would be increased by his Hon. and Learned
Friend's proposition.
Mr. TRELA.W NY said he thohght the law should be
the same in both countries on that subject, as well as
every other.
Mr. WALPOLE repeated what he had before said,
with respect to the two points to which he confined his
clause—the encroachment on the prerogative of the
Crown, and the assumption of ecclesiastical titles in any
part of the kingdom.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had got rid of the objections made to his
clause. What the Hon. Member did propose about
making an assumption of a title an offence here, did
make a difference between England and Ireland. Far
his own part, his own objection to the clause was of a
general nature. It was not framedin accordance with
the spirit of the Act of 1829, beyond which the Govern-
ment did not wish to go. tie would therefore oppose
that clause, and every amendment of a similar kind which
went to extend the penalties under the • Act. -
After a few words in explanation from Mr. WAL-

POLE,
Mr. NAPIER suggested to his Hon. and Learned
Friend nut to press his amendment; as if ever there was
a time when it was necessary to have uniformity of prac-
tice, it was when they were engaged -in legislating on a
great constitutional principle.
Mr. STANFORD said the Hon. and Learned Member
for Midhurst had conducted himself all through that
discussion with so much moderation, discretion, and
judgment, that though differing in religious belief fr..m
many Hon. Members around him, he had never heard
one of them impugn that . Hon. and Learned Member's
character or conduct.—(Hear, hear,) He confessed he
had .not been able distinctly to understand some of the
points involved in the particular questions under discus-
sion; and he thought the Hon. Member for Athlone and
other Hon. Members who thought with him had a per-
fect right to demand a full explanation from the Govern-
ment of that system which they proposed carrying out
for the satisfaction of the Protestant people of this coun•
try. Ho was opposed to Popish ascendancy, but had a
kindly feeling towards his Roman Catholic fellow-sub-
jects, and he could say that they never should have an
ascendancy of any kind, Popish or Protestant, in this
country, which wee not founded on sound reason and ar-
gument. He bad listened with great attendon to all the
speeches which had been delivered in the course
of that debate particularly those of the law
officers of the Crown. All parties bad agreed
that there was no intention in pursuing that
legislation to interfere with the free action of
the religion of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects;
and he did sincerely believe that there was nut an Hon.
Member on his- side of the House who would not join in
that se-ntimi nt. But in legislating upon that suekcit
they had many ai d serious matters to take into consi-
deration. They hid to consider, as he had done, the
statute of Richard IL. and the 13th of Elizabeth, and
10th Geo. IV., cap. 27. And having given all these
various Acts full consideration, they shuuld weigh how
far the present position 0 the Roman Catholics was af-
tected by the existing law, and bow far it might be af-
fected by the proposed Bill.---(Hear, hear.) By the 9th
and 10th Vict., these missives of the Pope were illegal,
and we did not therefore require any new legislation to
declare that they were so. What had offended this
country was the assumption of tides and the parcelling
out of the kingdom into dioceses; and the Master of the
Rolls had stated that that could not be prevented except
by recurring to obsolete statutes; so that there appeared
to be no possibility of meeting this case except by the
enactment of a fresh law.—(Hear, hear.) If Hon.
Members were prepared to follow the honest and open
line of policy which the country expected from them,
then they would adopt the clause proposed by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole). But
he could assure them that no sinistrous course—however
dexterous it might be—(Laughter)—would give satisfac-
tion to the public. He (Mr. Stanford) should support
amendment.
Sir R. H. INGLIS objected to the amendment, as
creating a distinction between England and Ireland, and
recommended Mr. Walpole to withdraw it, and reserve
to himself the power of framing some other clause not
open to the exception which was applicable to this.
Mr. WALPOLE said that,'feeling his Hon. Friends
on that side of the House did not wish him to press the
clause, he was unwilling to do that which would be con-
trary to their better judgment. He hoped, however, if'
he did not pat the Committee to the trouble of a division,
that neither the Government nor the country would find
—as he feared they might hereafter find—another brief
coming into the country, and even themselves placed in
a mere awkward position than they were then now.
Mr. HORSM AN commended the consistency of the
course which had been pursued by Mr. Walpole through-
out. His Hon. and Learned Friend's clause had been
found fault with because it drew a distinction between
England and Ireland. But that which was urged as an
objsction to the amendment constituted in his (Mr.
&inmates) eyes its chief recommendation; for nothing
could be more absurd, in legislating upon a question of
this kind, than to say that the same principle should
apply to both countries, though the one were Protestant
and the other Roman eatholic—or that because the Pope
bad done something which was insulting to England,
therefore we were determined to put an end to the Papal
hierarchy in Ireland. He should give his hearty sup-
port to the amendment.
After a few words from Mr. SCULLY, in opposition
to the amendment, Mr. Walpole'a clause was, by leave,
withdrawn.
Mr. REYNOLDS said, that two hours and a half had
been spent in discussing an amendment which had been
at last withdrawn, and he wished to know if all the
amendments standing in the name of the Honourable
and Learned Member for Midhurst were also to be
withdrawn?
Mr. WALPOLE had already stated the coarse he
meant to take. He would support the amendment of his
Hon. and Learned Friend the Member fur Abingdon
(Sir F. Thesiger) relative to the prosecuting power, and
he vrould press his own amendments on the preamble.
After a fee, words from Mr. KEOGH,
Mr. 511CULLAGH moved the amendment of which
he had given notice, offer the words by, law,' to in-
sert these words, or who shall have been recognised
as Roman Catholic archbishop of any province,. Roman
Catholic bishop of any diocese, or Roman .Catholic dean
of any deanery, by any of her Majesty's superior courts
of law or equity.' " The documents to which
he would refer Were either originals er at-
tested copies. The first was .a. document of.
the Court of Chancery in Ireland at the time
when Sir Edward Sagden was Chancellor. After the
Be quests Act was passed the Roman Catholic inhabitants
of Drogheda, considering that certain property which
had hitherto been applied to Protestant purposes alone
by the corporation, should be also applied for the .benefit
of Roman Catholics, brought the case before the Court
of Chancery, and Sir Edward Sugden directed an in-
quiry by the Master as to who should be the proper
trustees, and the Master found that the property was
applicable, without regard to sect, to the children of the
poor of the locality, and its his report the Master named
eight Protestant and 'eight Roman Catholic trustees of
the
.common fund, the first of the Roman Catholic trus-
t e report,
a"
tees 'proposed by Muter Henn, being, in the words of ,
" the Most Rev. Dr. Crotty, Roman Catholic
Archbishop of of
ex Acernaltiaor i ba'
wereand
taken; Primate ofan
dI Ireland." a
thend order
.
"Teor
made by Chancellor S
be affirmed Master kimitltgden, on the hearing of them,
report, and awarded costs,
to show the futility eif
the
death of Dr. Crotty Proceedings were again taken to
have the vacancy i
An the trustees filled up; and in
Master Henn 's second report be
remarkable words, in fillies up .madet use of still more
name of " the Most Rev. Paul. the
lleve, .11.acalr Romany withthe
Catholic Archbishora of Armagh,
end
Primate of
Ire-
land." It had bee stated in the courseo
of the present
all n
debate that the present Roman Catholic Bishop
of
Armagh had been sent from Italy in violation of the
law of the land and the usage of .the -Irish Church.
But of the four last Archbishops of Armagh only one
was elected by the clergy—the other three were trans-
ferred by the Pope from other places: Dr. Curtis from
-from Italy, and Dr. Kelly translated
from Dr. Cullen
from another see in Ireland. There was another cave.
A gentleman named But ke left a large sum for chari-
table purposes to the Romeo- Catholic Archbishop of
Tuain, Dr. M'Hale, and a question having arisen be-
tween the legatee and the inheritors of the estate, a bill
was filed in Chancery, and letters of administration
were sought in the Prerogative Court by Dr. INI'llale;
the letters of administration were granted in the name
of the P1%464414 - r *Beat Um Inagua _hest off that