The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, July 29.
The division upon the Bastardy clause, as given in the
Morning Papers (from which we copied), was by some acci-
dentvery wrongly stated. It should have been for the Bishop
of Exeter's amendment—
Contents .. l4
Non-contents 38
Majority in favour• of the original clause —24
The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at
a quarter-past five o'clock.

A message from the Commons, by Lord EBRINGTON and
others, brought up the Weights and Measures Bill, the
Chancery Offices (Ireland) Bill, the Universities Admission
Bill (by G. W. Wood), and the Durham and Sunderland
Railway Bill.
On the motion of the Earl of RADNOR, the Bill
for the admission of Dissenters to the Universities was
read a first time and was ordered to be printed and read a
second time on Friday.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS.
The 'Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, seeing the Noble
Viscount (Melbourne) in his place, he wished to ask whe-
ther the Government had received any intelligence relative to
Don Carlos since he landed in Spain?
Viscount MELBOURNE said there was no doubt but
Government had received some intelligence upon the subject,
but it was of so very uncertain a character that it could not be
relied upon.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY then gave notice
that on Monday he would submit a motion to the House rela-
tive to the state of our Foreign relations, and more especially
relative to the Quadruple Treaty between England, France,
Spain, and Portugal.
Petitions for protection to the Church and against the admis-
sion of Dissenters to the Universities were presented by the
Duke of Gloucester, the Bishops of Gloucester and Exeter,
the Earl of Melville, and Lord Wynford.
The Bribery Bill went through a Committee. Report on
Thursday. The Foreign Post Bill also went through a
Committee.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from the inhabitants of Calcutta, praying that the rights
of aliens might be established who held estates in that part
of India.

SUPPRESSION OF DISTURBANCES (IRELAND)

BILL.

Lord MELBOURNE rose for the purpose of moving
the third reading of the Bill. The general grounds on
which the Bill rested, the provisions which it contained, the
parts of the country to which it had been extended, and
the effect it had produced in those parts of the country that had
been subjected to its operations had been so recently clearly and
distinctly detailed to their Lordships that it would not be ne-
cessary for him again to go over the same grounds. He should
therefore content himself 'with a very few observations. It
had been a great wonder and a great misfortune, and a
calamity which, as it proceeded from the nature of a free
Government under which they lived, it was in, vain to
deplore, that its affairs had never received that calm, fair,
impartial, and deliberate discussion and consideration
which their great importance demanded.—( Hear, hear.) They
had always been made the grounds on which existing admini-
strations were attacked, and upon which those who had been
in opposition to those administrations had grounded that oppc-
sition.—( Hear.) This wa's a great misfortune, because whether
they considered the great importance of that country, or whe-
ther they considered the very peculiar situation in which it was
placed, there was no question which required more to be consi-
dered with calmness and deliberation than the affairs of Ireland.
It had been said in discussions upon this Bill, when compari-
sons had been drawn between the disturbances which had taken
place at various times in this country, and those which had 'for
many years past disturbed and disgraced the country and po
pulation of Ireland, that they had never taken, with respect
to this country, measures of similar severity to that which was
now proposed to be adopted. He would say there was no
analogy between the circumstances of the two countries.
They were totally and entirely different. It was also stated
that England and Englishmen would never endure the
introduction of such measures as those which were pro-
posed with respect to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He knew
not what England and Englishmen might endure,
if subjected to similar circumstances, but he trusted a similar
case would never arise in this country. He trusted that the
case would never arise, which would call upon a
British Ministry,—or a British Parliament,—either to
consider or propose a question for England similar to
that which was now proposed for Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
He would tell their Lordships that England would not endure
for a month or a fortnight that state of things which made the
present measure necessary.—( Hear, hear.) England would
not endure the injury by night, the violence by day, or that
perpetual disturbance and excitement that were kept up
in Ireland—( Hear)—which had rendered the present mea-
sure absolutely necessary. He trusted their Lordships would
consider the difference between the nature and extent of crime
in Ireland and this country. He had before him returns with
respect to crime in those countries in 1833. According to
those statements, the crimes committed in England in that year
were 20,072, upwards of 15,000 of them being petty larceny,
-t—e,--easseetly_and without violence. The whole number of
offences committed without violence was 17,131 leaving for
those which had more or less of violence connected with the
commission of them. the number of 2,941. This statement,
undoubtedly, considering the great population of the country,
though larger in amount than could be wished, was not one to
fill the mind with any extraordinary degree of horror and alarm.
The case was very different with respect to Ireland : the out-
rages there during that period were no less than 9,943, while
the robberies were between 1,800 and 1,900. The number of
outrages contained within it cases of riot, of rescue, of attacks
upon houses, of illegal meetings, of appearing in arms, of burn-
ing and levelling dwellings, of maiming or destroying cattle.
He asked their Lordships whether, pointing out this difference
between the two countries was not sufficient to show that there
was a necessity for a measure of this kind, in one of the two
countries, while to the other it would be wholly inapplicable.
He was sorry, however, to say, that the mere list of offences
thus furnished would give but an inadequate account of the
state of the country—but an inadequate idea of its condition
could be formed from the details of murders and of horrors at
which the blood ran cold. Those who had the task of reading
the accounts of the smaller offences, would sec in them a per-
vading character which was most fatal to the peace of society.
Disturbances, as was well known to many of their Lordships,
took place in Ireland that was fatal to the peace of the country.
A man could do barely any act without subjecting himself to in-
sult and outrage; he could not take a servant, or make a sale of
property, or pursue any ordinary duties, without subjecting him-
self to the most violent outrages. If in consequence of those
outrages they resorted to the law, the probability was that they
were pronouncing sentence of death upon themselves, in all
probability they would be murdered, and that perhaps in mid-
day.---( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Under such circumstances
it was necessary that the Government of Ireland should
be entrusted with those powers which were given it by
the present Bill.--( Hear.) He thought, however, that their
Lordships would be of opinion that it was more his
duty to detail to their Lordships that part of the Bill,
which omitted some part of the former law—( Hear, hear)
—than to enter into a statement of the other part of the Bill.
He had already stated that his opinion was in favour of those
clauses.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He thought the three first
clauses ought to be retained—( Hear, hear)—those clauses
which gave power to the Lor,l Lieutenant to disperse meetings,
the court-marshal clause and so on. The grounds upon which
he came to these opinions were these. The Constitution
of this country consisted of the prerogative of the Crown,
the privileges of the Parliament, and the rights and liberties
of the people. It was in the harmony, agreement, and con-
sent of these various principles, and in keeping each of them
within bounds, that the frame of the Government was formed,
and the advantage of the country in general was secured.
When either of these powers exceeded their due bounds, and
abuses were committed, it became absolutely necessary to
place limits to the force of that pal tof the Constitution. It
was the experience of our history that such was the case, and
many such limitations had taken place in consequence of the
abuses thus created. In his opinion the right cf petitioning
had been abused and perverted in Ireland, where it was used
for the purPose of overthrowing the Constitution of the coun-
try. He knew that it might be said that it had been abused
in England ; that it had been sometimes carried to too great
an extent here, he was willing to admit. Violent language
had been sometimes used at public meetings here, and
menacing conduct had even occasionally been exhibited. But
here these things were transient—they were the spontaneous
ebullitions of the moment—they soon passed away, and all
again relapsed into peace. In Ireland, on the contrary, they
were of certain regular recurrence, as regular as the monsoons
and the rains of a tropical climate ; and they bore the impres-
sion of being actuated by one mind, set on foot by one impulse
—they were guided by one power and one spirit.—( Hear. )
On these grounds he had been prepared to submitt that these
clauses were called for by the necessity of the case, and that
they ought to have been adopted by Parliament. At the same
time he must say that their importance ought not to be overrated,
nor be imagined to possess a power or an efficiency which did
not in fact belong to them. They were effectual for one pur-
pose ; but in the first place they never had been used to pre-
vent public meetings for the fair discussion of great public
topics ; and in the second place other means had been found
to check the abuses of speech at these meetings. These
clauses could not prevent a body of men from acting in a set-
tled manner, and with a definite purpose, as the Roman Ca-
tholic Association had done ; and attempts had been made
since, though not with the same success, to establish a society
like that association. He was aware of the effect which
speeches produced upon a body of persons assembled together
for the discussion of political matters in Ireland. He knew
that the language of a letter which had been before quoted
described speeches and agitation as cause and effect. He
might admit that representation to be true, and yet deny that
they were the primary cause of the outrages. He knew not
exactly what that cause was. Whether it arose from a sup-
posed adherence to ancient rights, whether the people believed
that they really did suffer under unparalleled oppression and
misgovernment, and that this produced that character of vio-
lence among them, he did not know ; but he knew that a spirit
of violence did exist, ever ready to burst forth into action.
There were persons too who were ever ready to unite against
the well-being of the community, and lie believed that what-
ever might be the future fate of Ireland, whatever might here-
after happeato it, that spirit of combination would oppose the
most serious obstacles and strong impediments to its growing
wealth and prosperity.—( Hear, hear, hear.) That these
speeches, mighthoweverclamtohraotums,ananydowfhtahteemverwteorpeiemsotshteuyns
-
urge (and he admitted
fiable), that they did very great mischief, and that they were
totally unwarranted by the facts, he could not
over by a foreignnotpossiblydeny.
They represented Ireland as domineered

party (a topic the most irritating that could be addressed to
any people), that the whole country was suffering from the
misconduct of the whole body of landlords, and that nothing
remained for the people' but utter ruin, abasement, and degra-
dation. He knew how false these topics were; he could not
deny that such topics so addressed and so received, must pro-
duce considerable effect • but that they were the primary •
cause of the outrage he had described, he must say lie did not
believe. Their Lordships would recollect, too, that the inser-
tion of these clauses had not prevented speeches of this .dange-
rous nature, from being addressed to the Irish people. There-
fore, although lie was ready to admit, that it would be better
that the Government should be armed with the power which
these clauses gave them, yet if it was said that such powers
u ere absolutely necessary for the safety and peace of Ireland,
and that that safety could not be preserved without, he could
not believe the fact to be so. He was therefore ready, without
these powers, to be responsible for the peace of Ireland.
It had been found necessary to omit theSe three clauses
which had formed a part of the Bill of last year. ,Their
Lordships were aware of the reasons which had been urged
for this omission, and none could refuse to acknowledge
that if they could be dispensed with, the omission was de-
manded by justice. He was aware that Ministers had been
much censured for agreeing to give up those parts of last year's
Bill, and it had been said that they had better have resig,ned
than have abandoned them. In this opinion he did not concur.
He thought it was the duty of the Government to adhere to his
Majesty, and he concurred in the sentiment expressed by a No-
ble Lord, that if ever bound not to desert the Monarch, the ob-
ligation was at that time more imperative than at any other
period. For himself he did not say, that in accepting (ace
he had made any sacrifices, for perhaps he would not gain any
credit for such an assertion. Neither would he pretcnd any
indisposition on his part to the acceptance of office, or affect to
be insensible to the excitement it created, and the distinction
which it conferred, but when acknowledging that, he felt that
he would be permitted to say that he had also a full and perfect
sense of the responsibility which it involved. Still, fully as he
was impressed both with the distinction and the responsibility,
he would adhere to the service of his Sovereign as long as that
service was deemed useful, and when he found it could be dis-
pensed with, he would resign the trust as willingly as he had
accepted it.--( Hear, hear.) He was not aware that be had
anything more to add. If the Noble Duke was of opinion that
the safety of the empire rendered necessary the retention- of
the clauses proposed to be abandoned in the Bill before them,
he hoped he was prepared to ju.stify that opinion by reasons;
but if the Noble Duke had any doubt upon the subject, he also
hoped (as we understood the Noble Viscount) that Govern-
ment would receive the benefit of that doubt.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, before putting the ques-
tion, said, that as the amendment proposed by the Noble Duke
was a substantive measure, it should come before the House
as a distinct motion. The Bill should be now proposed for
the third reading, and the Noble Duke could afterwards make
his motion on the question, that the Bill be now read a third
time.

The Earl of RIPON rose, but as he addressed their Lord-
ships from one of the cross-benches, with his back turned com-
pletely to the gallery, he was frequently inaudible in the course
of his address. What he wished to say to their Lordships
would come better in, and be more applicable, at this stage
of the proceeding, than if he reserved it for the amendment
intended to be proposed by the Noble Duke. It was with great
reluctance that he felt himself called upon to address their
Lordships' on this occasion, because he found himself com-
pelled to accede to a measure, at the same time that he held
in the utmost abhorrence the principle upon which it was
founded.—( Hear, hear.) None amongst their Lordships were
less disposed than he to trench upon liberty, or bind down the
people with unnecessary restrictions. He concurred with
his Noble Friend who presided over his Majesty's GoverA-
ment, in acknowledging that nothing but extreme necessity
would sanction the measure.—( Hear, hear.) In acqui-
escing in the proposition before their Lordshius, he was
reluctantly obliged to confess that he felt very much
pained at some circumstances connected with it. When
his Noble Friend who was lately at the head of the Go-
vernment had on a recent occasion called upon their Lord-
ships to pass this bill, he had stated in a full, clear, convincing,
and satisfactory manner, the reasons by which he was com-
pelled to resort to the necessity of adopting this measure, and
there was no part of the bill on the necessity of which he more
forcibly dwelt than on the clauses now proposed to be omitted
by the measure at present before their Lordships._( Cheers
from the opposition.) Under these circumstances, he thought
it imperative on their Lordships to consider why it was that--
he would not say the same Government, but--a great portion
of the same Government—( Cheers)—now called upon that
House to consent to so material a change as to omit those
clauses then deemed so indispensable. The only reason now
given for this change was, that they were compelled to make
it. There were many persons in the present Government for
whom he entertained the most unfeigned esteem and respect,
and he hoped that, whilst he had acted with them he had de-
meaned himself as a man of honour, and one not unworthy of
their friendship ; but however high might be the estimation in
which he held them, he thought more satisfactory reasons
should be assigned for this change than those which had been
given. The Noble Lord who had lately been at the head of
his Majesty's Government had told them that the clauses now
proposed to be omitted were of indispensable necessity, and that
without these sae easeesnre
that
not be pinae“,,--The
Noble Earl did not on that occasion say a single word
which could lead their Lordships to suppose that there
was any difference in the Government upon this point.
There could not at that time have been any such diffe-
rence ; for if there had, the Noble Earl would not
have been justified in not having at that time stated it to their
Lordships. The opinion which the Noble Earl did state he
stated as that of the Government, and he confirmed this opi-
nion by no less authority than that of the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland. Of that Nobleman he (Lord Ripon) could not speak
in terms sufficiently expressive of his regard. Dispatches
written by him were read to the House for the purpose of
showing how necessary it was that these clauses should be re-
tained ; and how did it now happen that a Noble Lord came
down to that House with a proposition for doing them away ?
That part of the Bill which effected agitation' was proposed to
be omitted, notwithstanding the strong testimony borne by the
dispatches transmitted from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
and in which, with a most philosophic spirit of inquiry,
after
a close analysis of all the circumstances, and in a mode of rea-
soning close, conclusive, and convincing, the connection of
predial outrage with political agitation was clearly deduced.
( Cheers.) As he said before, if the Government was of
opinion that it could go on without the power which these
clauses conferred, he would be satisfied—leaving to them all
the responsibility—to take the bill in the shape in which they
brought it before their Lordships ; but it was very hard (as we
understood the Noble Lord), without knowing what induced
tile Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to write the letter out of
which the difference of opinion in the Cabinet arose. Under
these circumstances, he thought it hard upon their Lords
ships to be called npon to consent to the change.
' This
difference, it appeared, had arisen because of a communi-
cation which had taken place without the sanction of one
who, above all others, should have been consulted. And
with whom had this unauthorised communication taken
place? He would not name individuals ; but the commu-
nication had been had with one who was ever found resisting
the measures of the Government, and upon whom no reliance
could be placed by the Government, and from whom every
proceeding that disturbed the tranquillity of Ireland flowed—
( Cheers)—one whose hostility adopted every form of vitupe-
ration and abuse and who had exhausted the whole vocabulary
of late in his attacks on the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.—
( Cheers.) No Government could by possibility stand, which
proceeded in such a manner as this ; and he would venture to
predict, that if the present Government proceeded on such a
system, it could not exist. But knowing as he did, the spirit,
the resolution, and the judgment of the Noble Lord now at
the head of the Government, he had some hope that such
practices would not be proceeded in. Their Lordships should
remember that when, on a former occasion this bill, including
the clauses now proposed to be thrown cut, was brought before
them for a second reading, these clauses were roost elaborately
defended.—( Cheers.) The communication which had been
called- an " indiscretion," but which, in other words, was a
great blunder, took place, and the change was the consequence.
—( Cheers and laughter.) In a day or two after the circum-
stances became known, it was stated that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had resolved to resign ; but it eventually turned
out that at the request of the Government he consent&
to retain office. (The Noble Lord here entered into a
history of the other changes in the Administration ; but
for the reason already assigned, we were unable to follow
him.) By the efforts of his Noble Friend, now First Lord of
the Treasury, things were in some measure restored. That
Noble Lord accepted office • -at his magic touch most of the
sevc!ed Members of the divided Cabinet again tithed, and
affairs remained as they now are.—( Hear, and laughter.) But
still it was not a thorough reunion. He who was the life and
soul of the former Ministry was not now amongst them. This
description of him he (Lord Ripon) felt satisfied no one would
gainsay. None would deny his exalted qualifications for the
office which he held, or how eminently fitted he was to con-
tend with the difficulties which he had to surmount ; nor would
even those who disapproved of his measures, hesitate to admit
that a life spent in the furtherance of reform principles fur-
nished ample reason why he should have been the last person
to remove from the Ministry.—( Cheers.) Under the circum-
stances, the Noble Lord was justified in retiring, but it ap-
peared to him (Lord Ripon) that the Noble Earl had fallen a
sacrifice.—( Hear, hear.) If, instead of the change which
had taken place, the Noble Earl had carried on the business
of the Government to the close of the session, he might then
have retired from office under circumstances calculated to
give not the slightest pain either to himself or his suc-
cessor. These observations were connected with the Bill,
for
chanthgee
shapehad in
notwhtaickhenit place,hadbeen introduced
the Bill would
have passed
The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was placed, by these rifthe
in
pro-
ceedings, in a situation which, for difficulty, could not be sur-
passed, for, from the documents before their Lordships, it was to
be assumed, as his deliberate opinion, that the clauses were
necessary. The clauses were to be omitted, and who was the
cause that those portions of the Bill, which had been pro-
nounced so necessary, did not pass ? Who but he, who was
himself the embodied personification of the spirit of agitation
—he would not stop here—
" Tamen ultra pergere tendit.
Actum, inquit, nihil est, nisi PEeno milite.portas
Fran imus et media vexillum pono Suburra"
—( Cheers.) To meet him those changes had been made—
he thundered at the gates--they lay prostrate at his feet, and
lie now reared his ill-omened standard over the citadel. It
was to meet the views of this individual that the Noble Lord
at the head of' the Irish Government was placed in this posi-
tion. After this view of the transactions which then took
place, it was to be hoped that the Noble Lord now at the
head of the Ministry would be allowed to exercise his own
judgment, and act on his own discretion. As circumstances

THE • SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY 30, 1834.

stood, and as Government appeared to think these clauses un-
necessary, he was bound to acquiesce in their opinion. No one
would be rnore gratified than he if it were found that Ireland
could be kept tranquil without them ; but if stronger measures
were found necessary, he hoped the Noble Viscount would not
hesitate to apply, them. If they were not applied, the Noble
Viscount himself would be the next victim, and tilie last would
be the Constitution of this country.--( Cheers.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that, under the cir-
cumstances, he would postpone the motion of which he had
given notice until after the third reading. The Noble
Viscount (Melbourne) had said that he did not deem the
clauses proposed to be omitted necessary to preserve the
peace of Ireland, though in another part of his speech he
said he would and that he had voted for them, and that he
was desirous of having them passed, Both the Noble Earl
who was formerly at the head of the Government, and the
Noble Viscount who had moved the third reading, had pro-
nounced these clausea.absolutely necessary.
Lord MELBOURNE was not aware that he had said they
were necessary.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—The Noble Earl had
stated, that in his measure he proposed nothing that was not
absolutely necessary, and in support of this opinion there was
evidence of the necessity still stronger than that of the Noble
Earl or the Noble Viscount, furnished by the authority of two
Acts of Parliament, one of which was passed in the year 1823,
and the other in the last year. In the preamble to both Acts
it was stated, that the agitation which was excited in Ireland
was dangerous to the public liberty, inconsistent with the'
public peace, and opposed to the existence of all regular go-
vernment in Ireland.—( Cheers.) Not only had they the
authority of these two Acts of Parliament in support of these
clauses, but there was also the authority of the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland. See what was his opinion on the subject.
He stated in his communication which he had made to
Government, that having applied every means in his power
to trace the disturbances to their causes, he was obliged in
every instance to refer them to political agitation. Similar
testimony was given by the magistrates in thir correspondence
with Government.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl opposite,
and the Noble Lord upon the woolsack, descanted largely on
the necessity of retaining these clauses in justice to the poor,
who, by their omission, would be unequally treated.--( Cheers. )
The Noble Lord on the woolsack had said, that he would not
press upon the poor with his loins and refuse to touch with his
finger the city disturbers ; that it would not be just to re-enact
those clauses which pressed upon the poor, by shutting them
up after sun-set, and omit those which affected the city agita-
tors. After this, could the Noble Lord come down to that
House and propose the omission of the very clauses which he
before advocated. What was there in the state of Ireland to
warrant such omission ? Could any country upon earth
be pointed out where life and property were so inse-
cure ? Was there in the wilds of America—was there
in any part of Asia or Africa any country in a similar
state ? Talk of liberty, indeed ! He should first seek security
for life and property, and then make provision for the freedom
of discussion. Security for life and property was the first prin-
ciple of society ; without it there was no foundation for the right
of discussion or petition, nor could these last be laid claim to
until the former were possessed. This security had not
existed in ,Ireland for the last three years. The Noble and
Learned Lord had frequently told them that allegiance and
protection were reciprocal. Why not then grant to the
Crown the power of exercising this duty of protection, by
which it laid claim to allegiance? or was the King to lose the
allegiance of his subjects for want of that power? The Act
of last year had proved effective in its application, and this
furnished a reason why the clauses should be preserved. The
Noble Lord said that the portion of the Bill included in the
three clauses about to be omitted was not necessary ; the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland had asserted that they were necessary.
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord said they were not effective.
What was the fact ? Had they not proved effective to put
down associations and adjournment of associations ? Was not
the Act of 1829 found effectual for this purpose? It would
be utterly useless to attempt to prevent meetings in large
cities without adopting those clauses. As far as regarded
Dublin, they were peculiarly called for. It had been stated as
a reason for abandoning the former bill, that though it might
pass through that House, it would not be passed in another place.
In this opinion he could not agree, as he was satisfied that no
Government possessed the confidence of that other House in a
greater degree than did the late Administration, and he was
equally satisfied that, notwithstanding the late resignations,
the present Government possessed at this moment the same
confidence there—( Cheers)--as when it was assisted by the
talent and character of the Noble Earl on the opposite side.
It was obvious that the clauses had been given up, because of
the influence of the individual who had been already alluded
to in the course of the debate. If, indeed, they had felt that
the Bill was such as they could not have carried through the
other House, they would have had a right to give it up. The
Ministry, he admitted, were bound to serve his Majesty as
long as he was pleased to require their service, and in so doing
it was their duty, if necessary, to give up every measure, the
abar4nment of which did not hasard the peace, the security,
andotie best interests of the country. It had been said that
his Noble Relative, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, had
changed his mind as regarded the necessity of adhering to
these three clauses. Of this he (the Duke of Wellington)
had seen no evidence. The Noble Earl who had lately been
at the head of his Majesty's Government spoke in fa7our of
the clauses in July, whilst the letter in which the Lord Lieu-
tenant was stated to have changed his mind with regard to
them was dated as far back as the 18th June. The Noble
Duke concluded by stating, that though he would not press to
a division the motion bf which he had given notice, he would
still bring it forward, for the purpose of placing it on the
Journals of the House.

Lord GLENG ALL was of opinion that the cause of the
disturbances which existed in Ireland, was to be found in the
want of confidence in the Government on the part of the ma-
gistracy, the clergy, and the upper classes, and a similar
want of confidence as regarded them on the part of the Go-
vernment. This was not the time to yield to clamour. He
was of opinion that the day of concession had passed by ; that
it now became the Government to turn their back to the wall,
and say to the agitators, thus far you have proceeded, but you
shall not pass further. By mutilating the Bill now before
them, they would only succeed in throwing the Government
of the country into the hands of the agitators. The first con-
sequence of this mutilation would be, that between the pre-
sent time and November next meetings would be held through
all parts of the country, , and every exciting topic would be
again applied to stir the passions of the people. As a further
proof of this existing state of things in Ireland, the Noble
Lord stated that a list of names of the old proprietors of
estates in that country forfeited in the time of Cromwell, and
after the battle of the Boyne, was handed about, and an opi-
nion that it was probable that the estates would be recovered
was not uncommon.
The Earl of HAREWO OD declared his opinion that nei-
ther England nor Ireland would be safe as long as the present
system was pursued. What must the country think of public
men when they reflected that those scenes which they were
reminded of up to this very moment remained unexplained?
The hinge on which the whole of the affair to which he alluded
turned was the private and secret correspondence of some in-
dividual with the Lord-Lieutenant of -Ireland, designed to
extract from him that which had produced the present state of
things.—( Hear.) He knew nothing of what that letter was ;
but though it might not be convenient to produce a private
letter (as it was called),• still other means might surely have
been found, if the transaction were an honest one—( Hear,
hear)—of affording the public an opportunity of forming an
opinion respecting it. In the absence of such information
they must come to judgment on the circumstances as they
found them. It was not long since that the Noble Earl
( Earl Grey) retired from the Government with some
others. The cause of their retiring appeared to be their
adoption of a measure which certainly appeared much to
dissatisfy the great agitator of Ireland. The next thing
that occurred, their Lordships having been called on at
the recommendation of the Noble Earl to give an opinion on
the former measure, and the necessity of enforcing it, was,
that at the instigation and dictation of the great agitator they
were called on to alter the measure. How did that matter
stand ? An individual made a communication as to the views
or intentions of his Majesty's Government. It was stated
that this was a great indiscretion. Now, if he understood
what indiscretion meant, it was this, that an individual had
hastily and thoughtlessly made some communication which he
had better not have made. But when he found that the in-
discretion in question had been consulted on, and was approved
by others—( Cheers)—when he found that the communication
was sanctioned by some of the Right Hon. Gentleman's col-
leagues, he must say that he could consider such an act an act
of indiscretion no longer ; on the contrary, he thought they
were suspicious circumstances in evidence of a strong desire to
keep back from the knowledge of the Prime Minister what was
proceeding. Not only the people of England and Ireland, but the
people of Europe were looking to the course pursued by the Go-
vernment of this country : and he must say that it was lower-
ing this country in the estimation of Europe, that it was
lowering the Government in the eyes of the people of this
country, far such conduct to be witnessed. He could make
out to his own satisfaction, if not to that of their Lordships,
that few occasions had occurred which appeared to furnish so
strong proof of concessions having been made by the Govern-
ment to a person who had been by that Government designated
in the King's speech, not by name, but still designated and
denounced. Here was an individual who obliged them to keep
up a strong standing Army in Ireland at a great expense, yet
they found the Government secretly negociating with him.—
( Hear, hear.) Having pointed attention to two circumstances
as evidence of concessions—one the communication, the other
the alteration of the measure ; he must say, that he was ap-
prehensive that they might lead to a further concession. Were
they to go on satisfying the agitation of Ireland in this man-
ner ? He should like to know if that individual had not openly
declared that nothing would satisfy him but the repeal of the
union? His Majesty's Ministers had said, that they would
stand by the union even to the shedding of blood. After the
experience their Lordships had had, he would willingly ask his
Majesty's Government what their intentions were now with re-
gard to the repeal, if he thought the answer would be one on
which he could rely. He had differed materially from the
Noble Earl (Grey) in his course while he was at the head of
the 'late Government, but he must say, that every feeling of
political hostility which he had entertained towards the Noble
Earl ceased, when he saw that he had been, he (the Earl of
Harewood) thought, unworthily made a sacrifice on the pre-
sent occasion.—( Hear, hear.)
The. Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, that the Noble
Duke had told their Lordships that his Majesty's late Govern-
ment possessed the confidence of Parliament, and might there-
fore have passed the former Coercion Bill ; but he begged to
ask the Noble Duke whether it was probable that his Majesty's
Government would have continued to enjoy the confidence of
Parliament, if they had taken a course from which Parliament
could have inferred that they had demanded the powers given
by the Bill, without feeling that there was a necessity which

justified them in asking for those powers:—( Hear, hear.) He
for one denied it.was traced out that the disturbances existing
in Ireland were the consequences of agitation. He admitted
that if the minds of the people were stirred up against. the
laws—if they were persuaded that they were ill governed,
they would be brought into a state in which they would be
more easily inflamed to acts of violence and outrage ; but he
would trust to the moral influence of improvement to counter-
act such evil tendencies. That agitation was the cause—the"
primary cause, and the sole cause of, outrage, he would deny.
The whole history of Ireland disproved it, as no one ought
to know better than the Noble Duke. Was this the first law
that their Lordships had passed for the suppression of dis-
turbances? Was this the first time that the state of Ire-
land had been bad? Twenty-eight years ago, when the
Noble Duke himself was Secretary for Ireland, laws of this
kind were introduced. Similar laws were also introduced some
years before the rebellion. That agitations much injured the
people, he did not deny ; but he repeated that agitation alone
was not the cause of what was called predial outrage. When
society had been long suffering from evils which had oppressed
it—when it might be said to have grown up under the inflic-
tion of those evils, their Lordships must know that such a state
of things was not removable by any sudden act of legislation.
He should support this bill, because he did not think sufficient
grounds existed for a stronger law, and because he had a firm
reliance on the Noble Individual to whom its administration
was to be entrusted. Of that Illustrious Nobleman he would
say, that the whole history of his private life, the whole of his
conduct before the public, was a guarantee that the powers
"'given to him would not be abused—that lie would exercise
them with impartiality—with great lenity, but with sufficient
firmness. This was one of his chief reasons for not opposing
the preseitt act. He would omit the clauses relating to meet-
ings, with the object of restoring, as soon as possible, the com-
mon law of Ireland, which he hoped would be restored next
year. If any one thought that security in Ireland was to be
obtained by coercive measures alone—( Hear, hear)—he must
say, that in his judgment such an individual showed that he
had a very imperfect notion of the state of that country. They
were told that security was not to be obtained by giving way,
and concession had been talked of. The term concession had
been applied to the giving to a great body of people their
rights and privileges.—( Hear, hear.) He could inform their
Lords'aips that it was not by applying the principle of coercion
and restriction that they would ever be able to restore peace
and security to Ireland.---( Hear, bear.)

The Earl of H A DDINGTON did not think of contending
for the proposition, that to coercive measures alone they ought
to look for security. He was well aware that there was much
to occupy the Parliament and the Government of this country,
perhaps for years to come, in devising measures in defiance of
all the clamour that might be raised, for the improvement of
Ireland, for her peace and for her tranquillity ; but if their
Lordships determined on introducing a coercive measure, if
they were persuaded that it was necessary in the present state
of the country, the question was, whether that coercive measure
should be efficient, whether it should go to the cause, or deal
only with the effect, which was the subject more immediately
under the consideration of their Lordships.—( Hear, hear.)
It would be presumptuous in him to doubt that the Noble Mar-
quis ( Clanricarde) was better acquainted with the condition
of his own country, than he (the Earl of Haddington) was ;
but he thought he had pretty good authority on his side, when
he said that agitation and predial disturbances were as inti-
mately connected as cause and effect. He had the opinion of
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to that effect ; he had the de-
cided and strong opinion of the late first Lord of the Treasury
to that effect ; he had the opinion of his Noble and Learned
Friend on the woolsack to that effect ; and he believed that
he should have had the united opinion of the whole Govern-
ment to that effect—( Hear, hear)—but for the disclosure of
that private correspondence and juggling which had taken
place, from which it appeared that confidence had been be-
trayed, and which, for the sake of those concerned, he wished
had never been made known. The very reason of the thing
would show that it must be so. They had the predial outrages
in the one case; in the other they had the agitators touching
on the string which they knew would be responded to by the
feelings of the people of Ireland, and creating a question,
which, but for them, would never have been created. Yet,
what did this Bill do ? If they passed it, they would press
with the weight of all their loins upon the unfortunate, igno-
rant, deluded peasant out of the house an hour after sunset,
agitated and inflamed by the declarations of interested agi-
tators, who went abroad in the night to scatter discord and
ruin around them. Upon the poor misguided men they
pressed more than was necessary ; but in the case of the agi-
tator they pressed not at all, or if they did, they pressed upon
him with their little finger only. Thus they were content to
deal with the effect, but the cause they left raging still.— -
( Hear, hear.) Suppose he had no authority for what he was
urging, he would ask their Lordships was there not an answer
in the nature of things ? He had listened with great satis-
faction to the speech of the Noble Earl who lately held the
office of Privy Seal. In detailing what had taken place on a
recent occasion, it appeared to him (the Earl of Haddington)
that his Noble Friend had stopped rather short. He would not
repeat what his Noble Friend had stated, because he would not
weaken the effect of his Noble Friend's remarks, but he would
come at once to the point. His Noble Friend, to the best of
his recollection, finished his statement by making some re-
marks on the indiscretion or blunders of his Right Hon. Friend
the Chief Secretary for Ireland. Now he (the Earl of Had-
dington) was certainly one of those who thought that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had been very hardly used. It might
be that his Right Hon. Friend had been guilty—who was
there that might not be ?—of some common indiscretion. He
himself admitted that he was guilty, and, to speak the truth,
he (the Earl of Haddingion) could not deny that statement of
his Right Hon. Friend, but at the same time it was worthy of
remark that for some days his Right Hon. Friend bore the
whole blame of that indiscretion. The subject was brought
under discussion, but there was not one word said by any human
being to show that any human being had been guilty of rash-
ness, indiscretion, insubordination, or whatever they were
pleased to call it, but his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for
Ireland. At last it came out that there was another—a Cabi-
net Minister—a Noble Lord of unimpeached and unimpeach-
able character, who had so far participated in the indiscretion,
that he had authorized the communication without ever con-
sulting with the First Lord of the Treasury on the subject—
which communication that Noble Earl, standing in his place
in this House, said was made to a man with whom he had autho-
rized no communications, because in that man he did not think
that confidence could be placed. There was some one thus
to share with his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland
the blame of what had taken place. If he might be allowed
in these days to refer to the ordinary channels of communicaa-
tion, he would say that he had once seen a statement which he
had never heard contradicted. That statement was made by
a Noble Lord in another place, who was nearly connected
with the Noble Earl late at the head of his Majesty's Govern-
ment, and who, having the honour and the interest of his No-
ble Relative near to his heart, put a question to his Right Hon.
Friend the Secretary for Ireland, and asked him whether any
other persons had communicated,or had followed him in comma-
nicating,not with the arch agitator of Ireland,but with the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland ; for he had not forgotten that his
Right Hon. Friend was dealing not only with Mr. O'Connell,
but with the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland also. His Right
Hon. Friend replied (very properly, no doubt : probably if he
had been in the same situation he would have given a similar
answer) in such a manner that his answer amounted simply
to a refusal to answer. Why, if his Right Hon. Friend had
known that no other individuals had communicated with the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, would he not at once have given
that reply ?—( Cheers from the Opposition.) Would he not
have said, " I, and I only, was the official communicator with
the head of the Irish Government." He (the Earl of Had-
dington) had not the slightest suspicion that the Noble Lord
who was Home Secretary was a party to such a communica-
tion. His Right Hon. Friend, however, simply replied,
" That lie saw no reason why, having been guilty of one in-
discretion, he should be led into the commission of another."
Then, till that statement was contradicted, he (the Earl of
Haddington) concluded he had a right to say that there were
other communicators.--( Cheers from the Opposition.) Who
they were he knew not ; probably he never should know ; and
now that the mischief was done, he did not much care to
know.!--( A laugh.) But lie would say that his Right Hon.
Friend had been very ill-treated indeed ; and that he was sure
there must be more in this transaction than met the eye. Sup-
pose his Right Honourable Friend had gone unauthorized to
make that communication—suppose he, holding a subordinate
office, by going first to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and
then to the arch agitator, had caused all those disturbances
which had ended in driving out of the Government the Noble
Earl who was its head—in the high manliness and integrity of
whose character it was impossible not to have confidence—
and who, as a clog to the wheel of the movement, was more
especially entitled to that confidence--suppose, he repeated,
such had been the interference by a subordinate officer of the
Crown, could it be argued for an instant, that he would be at
this moment Secretary for Ireland ?—( Opposition cheers. )
He would say, rather, that there had been much that they did
not know of, and the effect of which had been so ably described
by his Noble Friend, as likely to produce an unfavourable im-
pression in the country as to the character of public men, and
as not looking like a very auspicious beginning of this new
Administration. He called it a new Administration ; he was
aware, however, that his Noble Friend at the head of the Go-
vernment stated the other night, that it was not a new Admi-
nistration, and that it was meant to conduct the Government
On the same principles as were acted on while the Noble Earl
was in office. He (the Earl of Haddington) was a good deal
struck with the positive declaration of the Noble Earl, that
this was not a new Ministry. That it was so, was surely
shown by this fact, that the Prime Minister had retired,
and he was somebody.—( A laugh.) He was a great
man in this country; and he was still more somebody in
his situation at the head of the Government. When the
Noble Earl resigned, they
were told that the whole Govern-
ment was dissolved—that it was at an end. But-whether it
was in the hands of the Noble Lord now at the head of the
Government, or whether it was in other hands, he did not
know, and lie must admit they were informed, that though it
was dissolved it was not dissolved.—( Laughter. ) However, it
revived again ; here it was, and not a new Government, but an
old Government.—( A laugh.) The very first measure in-
troduced by this new old Government was different from the
measure that had been introduced by the former Government.
They were unanimous as far as he knew on that measure.
and they now unanimously recommended a different measure.
There was this extraordinary fact, however, that they did not
approve of the measure they recommended; they all expressed
their regret that they had to bring it forward. His Noble
Friend had told him that it would have been impossible for
them to carry the first Bill through the House of Commons.
He had great respect for the House of Commons ever since
it had been reformed, though he preferred it as it was be-
fore, and nothing should induce him to speak of that
House but with respect. Still he would say, that lie could
not believe the representatives of the people, coming fresh

•
from the people, would think so little of the poor peasant, as to
consign him to the curfew, while he who kept the country
in a state of continued disturbance, while the agitator wh°
was the cause of all the mischief, was allowed to escape. 11,e
would say that it was unjust ; he would say that it was cruel.
He regretted that they should be called on to pass so one-sided
a measure, bearing as it did on the ignorant, unfortunate, and
perhaps the oppressed, but undoubtedly the poor, and letting
go scot free those who agitated the community, while theY
served their own purposes. He did not believe the difficulty
existed in the House of Commons; it was to be found some-
where else—in the Government itself. Here, however, theY
got into a labyrinth. lie confessed he did not understand one
half that had passed on this occasion. That the Government
was composed of' individuals • who entertained discordant
opinions on this measure, was true. That those who 'were
most attached, in these days of popularity-hunting, and wbiea,
were commonly called popular principles, had prevailed, then,
could be no doubt. He felt sure that one at least of the
Noble Lords opposite would rather have had the Bill contain
the clauses that had been omitted, than be without them.
But the Bill was to pass, maitre the opinions of those who
thought it imperfect. His Noble Friend said that difficulties
,
would have been experienced in the House of Commons, had
this not new, but old Government, attempted to carry the first
Bill through that House ; but how could that be, if this were
the new-old Government, which had sufficient influence ti°,
cause its opinions to prevail in the House of Commons ?
his Noble Friend should pursue a course really calculated to
give peace to Ireland; and if he would, at the same time,
withstand those efforts at vague and indefinite changes, 101'0
now unfortunately prevaileden this country, he would promise:
—though he knew it was of little use,—his decided suppcitti;
but he was afraid, considering the manner in which his Nei:,
Friend's Government commenced its operations, that it ‘l"..
not likely to lead to any results so happy as those to which
had averted. A new Government had been formed, and no-
thing had yet occurred in this House to prevents its having
fair play. Should he prove a false prophet, no man would le'
joice more sincerely at it than he should.-( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW said that not only were there
documents on the table of their Lordships' House to-prove
the
necessity of this measure, but not a member of his Majesty's Go"
vernment had,said a word to establish that necessity. This was
one of the most unconstitutional measures that ever passed the
British Legislature. It was true the Noble Lord at the bead
of the Government did, in opening the debate, say something
relative to the subject, but he addressed himself to their Lord"
ships in favour of the former Coercion Bill, which ba
been read a second time, and was now upon their Lordshilr
table awaiting a third reading. The whole speech of t?'
Noble Lord was in justification of the Noble Earl, anat!
Noble Lord declared his own opinions to be in unison NI;
those of the Noble Earl in favour of the former measure. r) t
contended then, that they were called .onto pass the presen,
Bill, without any documents to show that it was necessary'
before them, and without any Member of his Majesty's Gp.i.
vernment making out a case on which they should give it thii
support. He received satisfaction from finding that it was n°l
intended to take the sense of the House on this subject, for'.),it were, be should feel in an awkward position. He shoo
suffer more embarrassment than he had ever done before iirt
giving a vote in that House. If he opposed the measure aneot
failed, be should consider he was taking from the Governmeta.e
that awful responsibility which should always rest on the be
By pursuing such a course, should anything go wrong in old
Government of that unfortunate country, Ireland, he she 're
enable his Majesty's Ministers to come down to this 11°13:,
and say, " You, the Parliament, have taken on yourse:l;e_
the responsibility." On the other hand, no consideratl:
on earth should induce him to vote for the Bill. 1.110.
better course, therefore, would be to retire without gicl, ,
any vote at all. He considered it the most unjust and tyrfc'e
nical measure that had ever passed the legislature of alr
people. He knew that all those Noble Lords were called o,
to support this Bill who had voted for the bill of last year ;,sse
denied that the measures were the same. The bill of 15,
year Was a bill of mercy and justice as compared withitn,lid
Was not this evident on the face of the bill ? True, Cr
denounce and threaten with vengeance the public agitate7e
it held out the terror of the law against those who violated
Init
law ; it went to the root of the evil.—( Hear, hear.)
stated that such should be the punishment of crime, itt'co
care to remove the cause of crime. Such had been its C't
during the year that it was tried in Ireland, and such sta-
tedwag by
to be its effect by the Noble Earl who had retired, an
the Noble and Learned Lord. When on a former occasics.o
had attempted to call attention to the contradictions of
Noble and Learned Lord, it was said that the time he had seta
lected for that purpose was net the proper time; that he wla,
wait until the measure was under the consideration a Par 'te
ment. Then it would be for him (Lord Brougham), d
express his opinions on the subject. His Lordship, instea,4 a
so doing, was now to be seen reposing on the Woolsack,,s-'r
the other Noble Lords were sitting in equal silence toviDoelij
what might be said. Under these circumstances he a
take the liberty of reading what the Noble and Ler.rn.e,
Lord had done on a former occasion, and their Lordship
would not fail to contrast it with the present course of 'e
Noble and Learned Lord. He quoted from a reply of the
i
Noble and Learned Lord to a Noble Earl (Earl of Durhali,
who had objected to the clauses for the suppression of met!,
ings as unnecessary, and therefore unjustifiable. His Lerre
ship then read as follows When he said that there v, e
outrages in Ireland which rendered it necessary to susPeeit
the constitution of the country--for he did not deny that f
was a suspension of the consititution to infringe the rights °,
the people—when he saw that circumstances required and
tified this, he could not but ask himself this question---wbee
ther, if he was found to suspend the constitution, and infringr
the rights of the people to this extent, as regarded cases
t°o
predial outrage and local, it was impossible for him to dra'Aol
line ; and in justice to the people, and consistently as regareA
the measure, to take the distinction to which the Noble
had referred, and to say that he would put down disturbaSee:,
in the country, but would hold his hand in the toe.
That he would press hard with the weight of his loins tie
the peasantry, but not press with the weight of his 11,0
finger on the towns ; but that, right or wrong, the Pe°er,a
of the towns should be allowed to exhibit a foolish zto
or an excess of feeling, to manifest their political agitSied
and excitement, which they might think justifiably C'ig.
for, and still that when he saw conduct of this sort,
creasing the excitement throughout the country, and nour-00
ing the flame of local agitation, and propagating it, hew °oot
not interfere to prevent it. Could he do this, or was bee Of
rather bound to address his attention totlK exciting ealis-cer
these evils ?" His Lordship further rema -ed, It vias,e-illd
tainly an infraction of the constitution to say that there s"" of
be no public meetings ; but it was a still greater infraction&
the constitution to say that a man might not go about his la had
occupations, except by day. That was a more undoubteuv,t;
as unprescribable a right as the other ; yet the Noble i'he
would allow that the one right should be suspended, thonVati
would not oppose the suspension of the other. He (the etif
Chancellor) hoped, that if the House would think that is be
necessary that greater, and more extensive powers shot 13°
given - to the Government, these powers sbot""bes!
directed to the exciting cause." Now, he should like t° erg
the Noble and Learned Lord show in what mainer thisso
was in conformity with the principles laid down in the reteeeele
which he had just read. He knew the talents of -the best
and Learned Lord, and he was exceeding) y anxious t°,„
,elst
how the Noble and Learned Lord, and other Noble nisit
could reconcile their support of the present measure t°
O 1
consciences. He knew that there had been two re,Tt)te
assigned for
pthase a alterations.intthde was
mB yilsslttaewtreiiodt
with
mysterious
With reg,ar
thenoteleerr publicaw
would private
u reason,ld
Oneht
hartecast
eahlovenacs a public, ari-a to
ascertained that the Noble Marquis at the head of thei that
Government could dispense with them. It was declare' eeat
it would be as easy to get the House of Commons to re,'"
.IHauousesse, ohfloCinogellsose
the Reform Act, or any other important measure, as t,°
the original Bill under these circumstances. denied 151. Fr
to be the fact.--( Hear.) He did not venture this dents;lo
,1
others might have done, and as all would be justified in "-019'
on a knowledge of the conduct of the House of C°lllel'ioblf
seeing how it had supported this Government, which the' he'
Lord called the same as the last government, but Phi" or
proved to be a very different one; indeed, every day it was so°
dergoinE further changes, some one slipping out, and sonftes4
slipping in. —( A laugh.) Only to-day he saw it announce' set
his Noble Friend opposite (Earl Mulgrave) had obtained at
in the Cabinet, and lie was happy to see him there. 13,11dei/
was about to say, that to him it seemed clear that the P;'`,-bad
House of, Commons wculd have passed the Bill, if
not been for the extraordinary—he would almost the
them disgraceful—disclosures which took lace
3d of July, when one Honourable Gentleman said'
his honour it was not so ;" and another Hon. Gentlemnal said
e on his honour it was so ;" which was followed by irk,
asseveration to the effect, that "On the honour °fa elit'r
man it was not so ;" the reply being, that " On the bletiteije
a gentleman it wasso."
That course of proceeding eP scr
to him to be very unusual in a deliberative assembly •,e0111;
impossible, under the extraordinary nature of the Cl solve
stances, to avoid coming to a conclusion unfavourable t° 04,
one ; his own belief was, that Government refused to her'
public this letter, not only from a fear of exposing the tre-tefte',
and misbehaviour of one of their body to the public, b,uo,3ooff
an apprehension of disgusting the more virtuous and " 4.c14.
able portion of the Cabinet. Therefore that a gr°sso-.1/1
betrayal had been committed by some one—( Hear, 11,etet 01;s
though the Noble Earl late at the head of affairs lieut.:felt')
he was betrayed, yet his whole conduct showed that 'l' beg./
had been, otherwise, why had he quitted office 2--( Heerietteret
It was said that no Cabinet Minister had written the
very possibly not; but it was beyond a doubt that the tied `e,
had been written under the dictation, and at-the suggesa
a Cabinet Minister—( Hear, hear)—this was the full an on,
ral persuasion of the press, and of every person who he fog
t`
thing of the matter. He should certainly not vote e
mutilated Bill. f
The Bishop of DERRY regretted, from motives 85°
manity, that these clauses were not retained, for it lieservi ort
that their operation had been highly serviceable in Prvisce,°o
peace. He had very little doubt that the Neb)eeeig
would soon find himself under the necessity of Pt, JO` to.effect the promise he had given, that if he found tiocottis,
effective without these clauses, he should call Palohie
gether for the purpose of inserting them. The
~50
count had much better insert them at once. r
e ec
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that these 0,0
might be more properly described to be postponed ebeald he
tain contingencies, than as absolutely given up, for sceceriii
experiment of not enforcing them fail, which, hfs nee; be
hoped would not be the case, they would, when tue tba',)
arose, be inserted. It was only on this understanding( nor
had consented to support the measure as it stood. rose olf
He denied that the Noble Earl (Grey) had ever OP
the
°die
entertained an opinion that he had been betrayed• the inoti
feeling—a very natural one—was dissatisfaction a
oso
cretion which had been committed. Had the ilnP

pa
(Ai
wl,
no

apprise
histrati
every e
Solved
11,..,te, az
Chance
to Prev4
of the
mated t
had for
tehtion
hear. )
of last
ession_

which now existed of carrying these clauses in the other
House presented itself to that Noble Earl; he would at once
have seen, that however desirable their insertion, it would be
the worst policy to attempt to force them upon that House. The
feeling against these clauses in the Lower Hue was so well
understood, that not even a hint at such a motion as that now
made by the Noble Duke had been given utterance to.
The Earl of ABE RDEENprotested against public mea-
sures being justified by the private opinions of functionaries,
however high in office- —( Hear, hear.) Such a doctrine as
this, if acted-upon, would be most prejudicial to the public
service, if not indeed destructive of the Constitution itself.
He was the last man to violate, or to seek to violate, the sanc-
tity of any private communication, but he must protest against
any such communication being made- a justification of legisla-
tive acts. This opinion, too, of the functionary alluded to,
was the less to be relied upon, as it was admitted that he had
given it not with reference to the state of Ireland, but to the
state of opinion in England ; or, in plain English, with refe-
rence to the position of Government in the House of Com-
mons. As he said before, he was as unwilling as any one to
violate the sanctity of private letters, but he well remembered
that, in the office he had had the honour to fill, it was not un-
usual to make private communications such as this public, when
the public service required it, and he considered the present
a case in which the public service eminently required that a pri-
vate communication should be made public.—( Hear, hear. )
Viscount MELBOURNE admitted that an error of judg-
ment had been committed by a member of Government, and
that much mischief had been done ; but he was convinced that
nothing like treachery or ill intention had actuated the indi-
vidual who had committed this mistake. With reference to
the Bill as it stood, it was altogether wrong to describe it as a
concession to a party who wished to disturb the peace of Ire-
land ; it was nothing of the sort ; it was purely a concession
to public opinion, as expressed in the Lower House.--( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Viscount repeated what he had before
said, that if the experiment of omitting these clauses failed; he
should at once call Parliament together for the purpose of re-
newing them. He denied that their omission showed any de-
parture from the principles of the late Administration.—
( Hear, hear.) Their omission arose entirely from a necessity
which did not exist when the measure was before brought for-
ward in that House. The principles of Government were in
no respect altered.
The Bill was then read a third time without a division.
The Duke of WELLINGTON then proposed the amend-
ment of which he had given notice.

The LORD CHA'N' CE LL 0 R said he principally rose to
correct a false impression which appeared to exist in a Noble
Earl's mind, with reference to the principles entertained by
his Majesty's Ministers. The Noble Earl seemed to think
that he (the Lord Chancellor) had changed his opinions upon
these clauses, but he would repeat what he had said before,
that,the postponement of these clauses was not matter of op-
tion, but that that which the Noble Earl described as an in-
consistency and abandonment of principle, was, in point of
fact, a bowing to expediency. It had been said that the pre-
sent Government, while professing to act on the same princi-
ples as when his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) was at its head,
began by introducing a measure altogether repugnant to what
the Noble Earl would approve of. That he (the Lord Chan-
cellor) begged to assure their Lordships was not the fact ; and
his Noble Friend had authorised him—indeed, his Noble Friend
declared the same thing in his place in that House, the last
time he addressed their Lordships—his Noble Friend, he said,
had authorised him to state, in the most decided terms, that
in the altered circumstances of the case he approved, cor-
dially approved, of the measure as it now stood ; and that no
°be, whether in or out of office, could be more anxious to
support it than he was. _ _ _

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—The Noble Earl said,
that if in office he would have advised the present measure, in
the altered circumstances of the case.
The LORD CHANCELLO R— Precisely so. The Noble
Earl was aware that in the difficult circumstances in which his
Majesty's Government were placed, it would be impossible to
Preserve the same course with regard to this measure as had
been first proposed. With regard to what had been said by
the Noble Earl (Wicklow) respecting the language employed
by his (the Lord Chancellor's) Noble Friend on a previous
evening, when speaking of the communication which had been
fade by a member of the Government to another individual
on the subject of the renewal of this measure ; he must say,
that the Noble Earl had misrepresented what his Noble Friend
did say on that occasion.. In fact, it was a species of special
Pleading to maintain that his Noble Friend had said anything
on that occasion which implied that there had been anything
treacherously practised towards him. Nothing could be less
german—nothing could be more foreign to the character of his
(the LOrd Chancellor's) Noble Friend. He never said any
such thing—he never thought any such thing. His Noble
Friend never complained of treachery on the part of any
one ; but the Noble Earl, in his prodigious ignorance—.( A
laugh)—of the import of what his Noble Friend did say on
t occasion, persisted in maintaining that he did complain of
treachery having been practised towards him. The Noble
Marquis (Lansdowne). who seemed to have a far better me-
tnory than the Noble Earl, in so far at least as this matter was
concerned , stated that his (The Lord Chancellor's) Noble
riend did not only not say something of the kind imputed to
Vee, but that he expressly stated that everything which had
n done every step which had been taken in reference to
his ineasu're, had proceeded from the most honest motives and
the most honourable intentions. Of the motives which actu-
ated any man, or body of men, it was not fair for him (the
-Lord Chancellor) to speak. He could not judge of motives,
nor was he able to judge of the motives of his colleagues in
this instance further than they could be inferred from the con-
duct which they had pursued; but when his Noble Friend had
apprised them of his determination to retire from the Admi-
nistration, there was not one of them but furnished him with
every evidence of their regret at the course which he had re-
solved to adopt. He could appeal to his Noble Friends oppo-
site, and he would have appealed to his Noble Friend (Earl
Grey) himself had he been present, whether he (the Lord
Chancellor) had not done every thing which it was possible
to prevent the retirement of his Noble Friend from the head
of the Administration on every occasion on which he had inti-
'leafed that such was his intention. And his Noble Friend
had for twelve months past entertained and expressed that in-
tention on no fewer than six different occasions.—(Hear,
hear.) He had entertained and expressed it at the close
of last session—before the commencement of the present
Session—at the commencement of the present session—and
Several times after the session had commenced. In all, on six
;different occasions, five out of which six occasions he had
!)een instrumental in getting him to remain in office ; and
It was only on the last that he had been unsuccessful, though
hot Tess anxious or less zealous in his endeavours to induce his
rNoble Friend then to alter his resolution to resign. It had
been said that he (the Lord Chancellor) and others of his
colleagues were desirous of getting rid of his Noble Friend.
the allegation was altogether unfounded. It was indeed a
daost unreasonable supposition to imagine that they wished to
et the Noble Earl out of the Administration, because they
,must have known-that his retirement would of necessity break
his the Government. To the representations which he and
8 Colleagues made to the Noble Earl with a view to induce
I'him to remain at the head of the Administration, his answer
was that he had detdmined, even had the circumstances in
testion net taken place to retire from the councils of his
T.(a.iesty, owing to the infirmities consequent on advanced
-cbezlrs, in a few weeks, most certainly at the end of the session.
ce, lth respect to the communication from a Member of the
evernment to a Member of the other House of Parlia-
ent, about which so much misunderstanding still ex-
tle d in the minds of some Noble Lords, he must repeat
W„'at he had stated on a former occasion. Lord Althorp
Cer assthorised the Right Honourable Gentleman, the
eretary for Ireland, to make such a communication as the
Ittter Gentleman did make ; and it was incorrect, it was un-
it,anted by the facts of the case, for Noble Lords to say so.
sns perfectly true—and he would at once admit the fact—
shat:the Noble Lord had, when the Secretary for Ireland had
X:"
(3 sulted him on the subject—it was perfectly true that the
0 Lord had said, that if he was asked any question by any
o ysthe Members cf the other House of Parliament in that
'lse of Parliament, respecting the intentions of Government
tlaregarded the renewal of the Bill of last year, to answer that
ssiteistien ; but the Noble Lord accompanied his observation
aridi the warning : " Be extremely cautious in what you say,
not commit yourself." It was perfectly true that his (the
11:1i1 Chancellor's) Noble Friend (Earl Grey) had said that
ofad never authorised any communication at all on the part
tiZY Member of his Government, to any person out of the
that - Now here he (the Lord Chancellor) must say
Is was one of the occasions, this was one of the matter,
he which he differed from his Noble Friend. In this respect
t;t.adinitted he did differ from his Noble Friend. Communi-
op I°,'lB between his Majesty's Government and Members
es„'"e other House of Parliament were occasionally nes
Gs:t3'. In fact, it would be impossible to carry on the
troy ?Ilnent of the country without such communications ;
si,4l 'lad it ever been carried on without , such occasional
on :T',onications of the intentions of Ministers to Members
INT "e Opiosition side of the House. He was sure that
obis .
iisi4 Lords would give him credit fur what he said, when he
iesp that he never hesitated nor ever would hesitate,
M' hi his opinion of individuals, when such expression
14,11! opinion was necessary. But if he should b: accused of
toyt,ll?g back or concealing his opinion in such cases, he would
Koss WS, that none of their Lordships, in their places in that
or fe, ever expressed their opinions of individuals more freely
114,711arlessly than he had done ever since he had the honour of
14 't seat in that Hsuse, when he considered it his bounden
1"als .°,l° so. He never on any occasion truckled to indivi-
''diste' he trusted he never would truckle to any individual
biestver ; but he did not consider that truckling to c0mmu-
'144.... certain information to a Member of the Legislature
'4l'ntrit was patriotic, when it was for his Sovereign and his
wit WY 'S
good, to make such communication. It was his duty
hail as, in his opinion, the duty of every person placed in si-
trenmstances to consider the subject in reference to its
to lig On •
raj, the interests of the country, and then to act ac-
tkiil4l7 to his conviction, regardless alike of the favour or
:s'Peetwl'ieh may be the consequence of his conduct. With
ay to the clauses which had been withdrawn, all he should
14° st s:;1 that he had great hopes—that he entertained the
, pVuille hopes, that though these clauses were no longer
kr‘-'"11, the Bill would still be found sufficient for all
v,l kr, ',es it was intended to serve. He agreed with
" Le Lord who said that his Majesty's Government
theP°ss;hly find themselves mistaken in their opinions
41410 taloefficieney of the measure, and that disturbances
,„te el' Place in Ireland in consequence of withdrawing
s_"'es• If so, and the flame of disaffection and
toposm,e_e to the laws should. be found to be spreading
Airrt the country, then the only alternative would be
teN4drninistration to re-assemble Parliament to apply such
tesity 3 as the new necessity shall require. That such a ne-
sh:tl4slevaeYpever arise was his most anxious and earnest prayer.
the °L, indeed, that the necessity never would arise ; but
prospect of Parliament meeting, and knowing

that it possessed the power to put down all disturbances, and
preserve the public peace, would be suff.cient to prevent any
outbreakings or disorders in Ireland. He would only say,
further, that he never regarded the clauses in question as of
the same importance as the other parts of the bill ; and it
would be in the recollection of their Lordships that on the
first night on which the subject was brought under their consi-
deration, he had stated as much ; but he added further, on
that occasion, that when he learned that his colleagues in
office were impressed with the injustice of pressing so heavily
on the peasantry, and leaving meetings in towns as before, he
had gone more fully into their views. With respect to the
letter which the Secretary for Ireland had written to the Lord
Lieutenant of that country, it ought not at all to occasion
surprise, considering the intimacy and friendship which
subsisted between them. He (the Lord Chancellor)
was himself in the habit of corresponding with that
accomplished Nobleman, upon an average, three or
or four times a week. He corresponded with his
Excellency both in public and private matters; and be recol-
lected that he had written to him respecting this very subject,
namely, the courtsmartial clause. He recollected asking the
Lord Lieutenant whether he could do, or how he could do, if
those clauses were withdrawn ? That question was asked in
a letter containing a vast variety of other matter. But he had
received no answer to his question, though he understood he
had answered the question in a letter to his Noble Friend lately
at the head of the Government, which letter, however, he
(the Lord Chancellor) had not seen. But the letter to the
Secretary for Ireland could not have been in consequence of
his (the Lord Chancellor's) letter to his Excellency.
He had not seen this letter, but had heard the nature
of its contents. Noble Lords seemed still to adhere to
the same opinion, that this letter of the Lord Lieute-
nant of Ireland to the Secretary for that country, was the
cause of the breaking up of the Cabinet, and for altering
this measure. Such was not the fact ; such was not the
cause of the dissolution of the Cabinet ; but he would now
tell their Lordships what was the cause of the breaking up
of the Cabinet ; it was the communication of the contents
of that letter to Members of the other House of Parlia-
ment, and the consequent disclosure of Government se-
crets ; and it was the same disclosures and not the letter
itself, that led to the withdrawal from the Bill of the clauses in
question. Noble Lords ought not to be too severe on Govern-
ment for this ; they ought not to be too severe on them for
giving up those clauses. The Noble Earl ( Harewood), who
knew what it was to act as a Magistrate on the bench, seemed
to look on Government in this case as on the magisterial bench.
We have given up those clauses, because we knew we could
not carry them. So says the Noble Earl. And for the same
reason he did not support the amendment of the Noble Duke.
He does not support it, because he knows it cannot be carried.
—(Laughter.) Neither did the Noble Duke, who proposed
the amendment, and who had also made a ferocious attack on
the Government, press his amendment. Why ? Simply for
the same reason, that be knew he could not carry it.—( Re-
newed laughter.) The Noble Lords on the benches (the Op-
position benches) behind. him, all shook hands together, and
agreed to let go the amendment, because they knew it could
not be carried.--( Continued laughter.) The speech of the
Right Rev. Prelate who addressed them, was one worthy of a
good Irishman or Englishman either, and he (the Lord Chan-
cellor) concurred with him in hoping and praying that matters
might not attain such a state in this land as to require any ex-
traordinary stretch of the executive.
The Earl of WICKLOW explained. He maintained that
the terms in which the Noble Earl late at the head of his Ma-
jesty's Government expressed himself in reference to the com-
munications of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland to Mr.
O'Connell were such as to justify the construction which he
(the Earl of Wicklow) put upon them. The Noble and
Learned Lord who had just addressed their Lordships admit-
ted having written, in his hours of amusement, a letter to the
Marquis of Wellesley, which might have had an effect on the
Noble Marquis's mind. But of the contents of the letter their
Lordships were also ignorant. There was another matter to
which he (the Earl of Wicklow) wished to allude. He wished
to know whether it was true that the Noble Earl late at the
head of the Government had been offered the Privy Seal
within the last few days.--( Cries of " No, no," from the Lord
Chancellor.) He could assure the Noble and Learned Lord
that the report had not only been extensively circulated, but
that it had been very generally believed. Under this Bill
there must be greater agitation than ever in
,Ireland, or if
peace should be preserved in that country, it must be pur-
chased by a species of barter with the agitators.
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose in consequence of
what had fallen from the Noble Earl, to assure their Lord-
ships that there had been no barter, no bargain, no commu-
nication of any kind on the part of any Member of his Ma-
jesty's Government, with any party whatever, in reference to
this measure. But the Noble Earl had taken care, happen
what might, to leave ground for himself to stand on. If agi-
tation should be renewed in Ireland, the Noble Earl would
say it was because the clauses in question were taken out of the
Bill. If, on the other hand, peace should be preserved in
that country, he would say it was in consequence of a bargain
with some of the baser sort of persons in it. As regarded his
own letter to the Marquis of Wellesley, to which the Noble
Earl had alluded, he must say that he hoped neither that letter
nor his other correspondence with that Nobleman would be
produced; for if the letter of his Excellency to Lord
Grey was unfit to be produced, his (the Lord Chancel-
lor's) was still more so. Some part of that letter was
written in prose—it may be that some part of it was
written, not in prose, but in bad verse.—( Laughter.) Some
of it was in Latin—some of it was in Greek.—(Renewed
laughter.) It was on a great variety of subjects, and only
contained one question respecting the courtsmartial clauses of
the Bill, amidst a hundred other things. In short, it was one
of the most motley pieces of correspondence which their
Lordships ever saw.—( Laughter.) The Noble Earl had
called the letter one of amusement ; so it was, for in his hours
of relaxation he was always happy to correspond with so ex-
cellent and so accomplished a scholar as his Excellency the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. It might appear weakness in a
statesman to say so, but he had no hesitation in making the
admission, that he (the Lord Chancellor) had derived much
valuable information from the truly classical mind of his Noble
Friend.

The Marquis of WE STME ATH wished to know whether
certain persons in Ireland were to be taken into the confidence
of Government, and to make the people of that country still
more wretched than they now are ?
The Duke of WELLINGTON explained. If Ministers
had desired it, they could have carried the measure as it origi-
nally stood ; and he firmly believed that if the Noble Earl late
at the head of the Governmentiiad remained in office, it would
have been carried in the other as well as in that House of
Parliament. The Noble and Learned Lord admitted that it
was not the circumstance of the letter being written to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but the discovery and disclosure
of the contents of that letter, that led to the breaking up of
the Cabinet, and the taking out these clauses. It was impos-
sible that that circumstance could have made the House of
Commons refuse to pass the measure. The Noble Earl (Grey)
after the disclosure had been made, proposed the measure in
that House in the same way as before, and expressed on the
occasion his confidence of being able to carry it. It was be-
cause the Noble Earl's colleagues differed among themselves
that the Ministry was broken up. He (the Duke of Welling-
ton) did not intend to press his amendment. He would not
be taunted into pressing his amendment by anything which
the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack could say. Their
Lordships were aware of the reasons why he did not press it.
He would content himself with placing his amendment on the
journals of the House.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Bill passed
without a division.

Their Lordships then adjourned, at ten o'clock, till half-
past three o'clock to-morrow.

$O USE OF COMMONS, July 29.

The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at twenty-five minutes
past five.
Sir J. STORMONT brought up the report of the Com-
mittee on the Shannon Navigation, which was laid on the table
and ordered to le printed.