The Sun.
London, England, 1834-04-21 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC: JOURNALS.

their encouragement of Political Unions, as long as
they thought a formidable demonstration of physical
strength by those bodies was necessary to keep them in
their places. We then foretold what has since been
but too fearfully realized—that ministers would evoke
a giant power in this country that would eventually
struggle for dominion with the political wizards
that brought it on the scene. Here it is to-day—
the principle and the spirit of the Political Unions
embodied in the combined physical force of the work-
ing classes. A giant power indeed, which, though only
stretching forth its hundred arms, at present, in
the attitude of supplication, causes our State magi-
cians to recoil with horror from their own work.
Well do we recollect the time when the highest judi-
cial functionary in the realm assisted the natural force
of his eloquence by describing the appalling spectacle
of 150,000 unionists assembled under their leaders,
on New Hall-hill, near Birmingham—with their heads
bared—making their simultaneous vows to Heaven,
and ready to march wherever their leaders chose to
direct them. It is true we have lived to see some of
those leaders become pensioners on those taxes which
the "cheap government" of reform was to have im-
mediately demolished ; and we have lived to see others
of them described as mountebanks--impostors—poli-
tical jugglers--and " Birmingham Hampdens," by
the very journals that affected to regard their talents
for political regeneration with mingled awe and admi-
ration, as long as they were necessary tools of the
Whig ambition. But the example of successful inti-
midation had been already taught the people, and the
spirit of the defunct Political Unions passed, by a sort
of political metempsychosis, into those new and por-
tentous confederacies which cause in this, the
second year of reform, preparations as if for civil
war in the streets of this metropolis. If the
working classes of London could be persuaded,
by those who are really their friends, to desist from
the intended demonstration, and to forward their pe-
tition to the throne on behalf of the Dorchester con-
victs by a delegated few, it would be well. They
may be assured that they have with them on this
point the moral support of public opinion ; for all
persons who are not the servile followers of the Whig
camp are either convinced that the law was strained—
' in error, perhaps, but certainly strained to catch
those unionists in its meshes ; or, if they think- the
Ilaw not improperly applied to the case, they are still
disgusted at the severity of the punishment inflicted
for a first offence under an act which had so long slept
on the statute-book as to have passed out of remem-
brance. In fact, government has put itself in the
wrong by the sentence, which has excited public
sympathy for the offenders, and deprived the example
of all moral influence. Still, if the trades' unions,
rejecting sound advice, will go into procession to-day,
government will, of course, be prepared to put down
violence if it should be attempted ; but they will act
wisely if they will abstain from adopting the counsel
of those who advise them to provoke it. We do
not wish to see the dreadful scenes of Lyons and
Paris imitated in the streets of London. Therefore,
we say, let those who are appointed to protect the
peace not begin by breaking it.—Morning Herald.
We must again express our deep regret at the in-
tended physical demonstration of the Trades' Unions
of the Metropolis on the occasion of their address to
the King for a commutation of the sentences on the
Dorsetshire convicts. The columns of this Journal
have always been devoted to the interests of the mass
of the people ; and in 1824-5 we advocated the rights
of industry on the important subject of the legislative
modification of the laws against exporting machinery,
and combination. We have always contended for the
right of the working classes to combine for the protec-
tion of their interests in questions with their employ-
ers, provided they avoided all attempts at coercion or
other unfair means of influencing their own classes.
Under the exciting circumstances also of the recent
unadvised and injurious formation of the organized
societies now called " Trades' Unions," we have fear-
lessly contended for the sufficiency of the existin g
laws, and decidedly deprecated any new legislation. We
deem the statute in force a sufficiently fair and full
protection of the relative rights of masters and men—
except, perhaps, the illegal influence obtained by the
physical means denominated "'picketing" and "scout-
ing"—and the numerous convictions in all parts of
the kingdom, and the notorious failure of the most
offensive unions and " strikes," as a demonstration of
the practical sufficiency of the existing law. It is,
therefore, with great pain that we observe these asso-
ciations adopt a course of procedure palpably injurious
Ito their honest and injurious members, and pursuing
measures which must alienate the best friends of their
undoubted rights. On the subject of their present
address to the crown we concede to them a perfect
right of opinion and a natural occasion of sympathy.
We admit, that viewing all the circumstances of the
case of the Dorsetshire labourers, the sentence is
severe ; and it is much to be regretted that an extreme
punishment falls upon individuals who may have been
partially ignorant of the law against secret oaths
under which they were convicted, and the general
rules and objects of whose association do not appear
to have been otherwise illegal. We could have wished
that worse offenders had been the victims of the law,
as far as example and punishment operate to prevent
crime. But it must be conceded that the government
is placed in a difficult and embarrassing situation.
The real evils of these organised societies—the
natural complaints of the great body of masters and
the middle classes affected by them—and, indeed, the
cunning of political parties opposed to ministers,
probably unite to urge the government to further le-
gislation as a control of their bad tendency. We
think that Lord Grey has most wisely resisted any in-
fluence which may have been used to induce him to
propose new laws--an experimental legislation which
would probably aggravate instead of diminish the evil,
and which would assuredly have had the injurious con-
sequence of severing the real union and good feeling
of the different classes of the country. We grieve,
therefore, to notice the trades' unions issue absurd and
dangerous manifestoes of their objects, and indulge in
chimerical schemes regarding capital, and in views
hostile to the natural order of human society—equally
mischievous and unsusceptible of realization. And we
the more deeply deplore their folly, when we see
adopted a " spectacle system" of public funerals of de-
ceased members of unions, and numerous public pro-
cessions promoted, such as we are to witness this day.
No government can sanction acts of the people so ut-
terly at variance with social order ; and it is their
bounden ministerial duty, as guardians of the public
peace, to discountenance proceedings injurious to all
classes, but to the actors above all others. We are
not, therefore, surprised that an official communication
has been made to the leaders of the metropolitan
unions, that the address to the King will not be received
in this mode of presentation. We think this determi-
nation wise and humane towards the unionists
themselves. If the ministers of the crown were
to compromise its dignity, by the reception of the
address, accompanied by the contemplated array of
great masses of trades' unionists, it is evident that
similar popular demonstrations would be repeated.
The danger of such congregations of the working
classes cannot be disguised. We honour the just
character which the population of this country have
obtained for order and respect for property. We do
not give credit to the silly alarm which imputes to the
people a conspiracy against property, and democratic
designs in these displays of numerical power. The
national character of Englishmen belies the aspersion.
But it is palpable that accident may ignite the mate-
rials of combustion. A few bad men among the
unionists, or a few excited police officers, might give
occasion for lamentable consequences ; and while,
therefore, we give the government credit for the pre-
cautions they have prudently taken, we trust that no
officious interruption will be given to the intended pro-
cession. The conduct of the Home Office by Lord
Melbourne has been hitherto most prudent and sensi-
ble. In times of no ordinary political excitement and
difficulty, he has ably and moderately exercised the
extraordinary powers of his very responsible office,
and we do not doubt that on this occasion he will
secure the public peace, and by official directions,
avoid the least shadow of provocation. We apprehend
no permanent evils from the, trades' unions. The
extent of their numbers, and the wildness of their
projects are an ample security for their speedy disso-
lution. They may be temporarily swayed by a few
philanthropic enthusiasts like Mr. Owen, or a few
political fanatics and charlatans like Dr. Wade ; but
the good sense and plain interest of the intelligent
mechanics will soon emancipate the unionists from
their temporary delusion. If trades' unions are " let
alone," they will die the natural death of all those
artificial and temporary associations which preceded
them ; if absurd and abortive legislation meddles with
them, they will not be dissolved without the substitu-
tion of evils far greater than the present : the cure
will be worse than the disease. We doubt not the
intended procession will prove only the pageant of a
Saint Monday, and will equally disappoint the expec-

In the course of yesterday many details became
known, through various channels, to the public, respect-
ing the ostensible designs and proceedings of the
Trades' Unions, or rather of their leadgrs, who take
the field this morning. It rejoices us to have ascer-
tained, from indisputable testimony, that the admoni-
tion we addressed to all classes of our fellow-citizens
on Saturday, has produced upon some of them the
salutary effects which were intended by it—that many
who had inconsiderately talked of " seeing" what was
to go forward, have declared their resolution to remain
at home, and insist on a similar forbearance on the part
of their families. Further, we have reason to believe
that no small number of those simple and well-mean-
ing, but misguided men, upon whose presence and
subserviency on this occasion the leading mischief-
makers had securely reckoned, have begun to draw
back from the snare so insidiously laid for them, and
to ask themselves—" What good will it do us or
our children' to make part of the crowd at Copen-
hagen-fields ?" There are some men,_ doubtless, who
can turn such things to temporary profit, namely, those
who contrive to become managers and directors of
them. These persons obtain the power of ordering
and commanding others, which all conceited and self-
ish people are fond of; they obtain, moreover, the
handling of their neighbours' money ; they have large
subscription funds at theiddisposal ; they have pretty
good pay, some of them at least, for their daily
trouble in keeping up by artificial and deceitful
means the agitation in the minds of the honest work-
ing classes, and in setting a number of their own
desperate tools to threaten and bully the more peace-
ably disposed into a reluctant co-operation with the
" unions." In fact, the whole scheme is the most
flagrant humbug upon those poor people for the bene-
fit of the " managers" alone, and this day's farce is
got up for the double purpose of cheating the poor
gulled members of the unions with the fancy of their
own importance, and frightening the government by
a display of their numerical force. The notable
attempt will, we imagine, be a twofold failure.
We have reason to suspect that the authorities
of the State, from the higest downwards, are well pre-
pared to insure the peace of society by lawful power,
and that the utter idiotism of the plot for subjecting all
other classes of the nation to this tyranny of a certain
clique of quack visionaries and projectors, is hourly
making itself more palpable to the least clear-sighted
of its hoped-for victims. In the first place, however,
it is right to correct a false assertion, and in the next,
to expose a silly expectation. It was said, on we know
not what authority, yesterday, that the police are this
day to be equipped with cutlasses and fire-arms. Now
we are sure that no such intention is entertained by
his Majesty's Government. The police will not be
armed. A right feeling prevails, that except in ex-
treme emergency, it is out of character for the civil
power to act with military weapons ; and we appre-
hend that if unfortunately any occasion for the em-
ployment of such auxiliary means should now arise,
the access to them will not be difficult. This re-
port may have been innocently promulgated, but its
tendency must be to raise angry passions, which all
good men would anxiously allay. Again, an absurd
notion has got hold of these " trades' unionists," that
notwithstanding their multitudinous meeting, and
their alarming and most inconvenient and troublesome
procession, their petition must, as a matter of course,
be received at Whitehall, provided only that the entire
mass of 200,000 petitioners abstain from breaking bo-
dily into the Home-office, and content themselves
with sending a small detachment of their numerous
army to present it. Now, we can inform them that so
clumsy and wretched an expedient will not serve the
purpose. The petition is to be marched down to
Westminster with an escort calculated only to intimi-
date the Government into submission ; and it is not by
stopping a few paces from the door, while the dele-
gates enter, that the multitude can pretend to separate
itself from the individuals who the moment before
constituted a portion of it. The document is still forced
upon the King's Minister—that is, in fact, upon
his Majesty's presence—by the compulsion of an im-
mense physical power; and as it would be at once a
disgraceful act and a fatal precedent to receive a pe-
tition under such circumstances, so are we convinced
that it will be at once rejected as an attempt at doing
violence to the Crown. If the unionists, therefore, be
disappointed in this matter, they will have richly
earned it by their own misconduct, and have none to
blame but themselves and their shallow, perverse, and
unprincipled leaders. These leaders are now mani-
festly frightened at the predicament they stand in ; but
the incendiaries have gone too far to retire—mortifica-
tion prevents their retreat, and imminent danger be-
sets them as they move forward. Nor are the chiefs
the only penitents in this instance. Hundreds of em-
ployers have declared that their unhappy workmen
would exult at having this nightmare of the " union"
despotism shaken off them ; that they have been
tricked into it—are bullied out of the virtuous resolu-
tion oftentimes formed to break away from it, and that
their attendance this day is an act of the most stern
compulsion. Against meeting, especially against
marching, at all, however, there are innumerable and
unanswerable reasons. Our free acknowledgment has
been given that we acquit the Unionists of a design
to commit such violence, as would bring them into
actual collision with the public force. The great
bulk of them, that is, the passive portion, are too
well disposed, to be capable of deliberate
crime ; and the chiefs are too conscious of
their weakness. But, once more, we must seri-
ously ask all of them whose minds are capable of any
dispassionate forethought, can they, even with the best
intentions, be sure that no calamity will occur ? Half
a dozen drunkards may force a quarrel with the police,
which might involve the whole body of policemen on
one side and of unionists on the other. There are
50,000 thieves and pickpockets in London ' • a gang of
only 100 such may produce a premeditated and, even-
pally, a universal tumult. Should there be no alter-
native for the restoration of peace but the dreadful one
of an appeal to the army, is there a human being who
without shuddering can meditate the possible result ?
But look at the very form of the procession, and tell
us is a safe or satisfactory issue to be -anticipated ?
They talk of marching six abreast, and, in some cases,
"supporters" on each side of them. Now, is it pos-
sible that a column of eight, or even six, men in front
should move along the streets of London without
creating obstructions at every step, and hindering the
progress of every one of the King's subjects, male or
female, on foot or horseback, or in carriages, and of all
goods in carts and waggons, throughout the whole
line of route, while troops are commanded to march in
single file through London ? This is a considera-
tion of extreme importance. Not many weeks
ago a trades' union funeral, real or pretended, (for
there used to be in Ireland, just before the rebel-
lion, such things as mock funerals got up for displays
of force) took possession of the entire width of Hol-
born, and effectually blocked the free passage of every
person who had the misfortune to face or follow. it.
Is not that an outrage ? Is it not a breach of the
peace ? Yet is it not inevitable if the programme of
Copenhagen-fields be adhered to ? And let us put it
earnestly to the judgment and feelings of the trades'
unions, if the police on duty endeavour to remove the
obstruction by opening a passage for any of the King's
subjects who may be repelled and thrown back by the
enormous advancing column on its way to Whitehall,
can such policemen be called aggressors, or be blamed
Ibr any disastrous consequences which may follow ?
ASile have been accused by a malignant and ruffian even-
ing paper of diabolical wickedness for stating the
afects which we feared. Our wish was to offer a
conscientious and useful warning, and no other—to
avert mischief, to put the unwary on their guard, to
protect the public tranquillity, and to save even the
meditators of evil (if such there should be) from suffer-
ing by their own machinations. God grant that all
may end in peace ! and that the people may learn to
distinguish their independent friends from fawning and
designing traitors.— Times.

There can be but one opinion among all sensible
and sober-minded persons, and among all who are
really the friends of the working classes, respecting the
intended procession of the Trades' Unions of London
to-day-----namely, it is a very ill-advised, and may be a
very disastrous measure. At the same time we are
far from approving of the advice given to the Govern-
ment by some of our contemporaries to put it down
by force. Every precaution ought to be, i.nd we pre-
sume is, taken by Government to protect the public
peace, if the unionists should put themselves in the
wrong by any attempt to disturb it. In this case the
Government would have the strong support of public
opinion at its back ; but the case would be very different
if Government should become the aggressive party
against a body of petitioners, however numerous, who
conducted themselves peaceably. As we have
never advocated the principle of carrying public
measures by intimidation, whether on the. part of
the crown or the people, we cannot, without mconsis-
tency, rebuke the Trades' Unions for doing that which
his Ms,iesty's ministers set them the example of doing by

tations of its political agitators and of sanguine Tories.
—Morning Chronicle.

In the course of the discussion on the question, the
hon. member for Boston, and the hon. member for the
University'of Oxford, had brought forward statements
with which his plan would be found perfectly consonant.
The first said that the dissenters objected not so
much to the amount as the principle, and the latter
that the legislature ought to provide for the supp o
of the church. The plan of Government would be in
accordance with both opinions ; it was that church rates
should be entirely abolished, and that 250,0001. should
be applied out of the land tax in the manner
which he would show. (Oh, oh!) Some hon. mem-
bers cried oh 1 but he would show what he in-
tended. ( Hear I). The mode in which this sum was to
be applied generally towards the support of the iabric
of the parish churches, by paying it into the hands
of the commissioners, a:body which it would be neces-
sary to make permanent. It would be found from the
returns before the house that the sum hitherto applied
was about 245,0001., and the sum proposed to be
appropriated he had not the slightest doubt would be
quite equal to the purpose. As the law at present
existed, either the rector, or the lay impropriator,
was bound to maintain the repairs of the church
but it was his intention to relieve them from that, but
on condition that the internal services of the church
should be. maintained. These were not very heavy
expenses, and the lay impropriator would not be placed
in any worse sivation than he was at present ; by this
plan all the expences now provided for by church rates
would be amply met, for it was intended that the
church fabric should be sustained, and the ex-
pences of the chancel ' and the church-yard,
should be met by the rector or the lay impropriator,
There were other points, such as the support of pews.
With respect to pews in parish churches, he thought
it would not be an unfair arrangement to make those
who had the use of them keep them in re-
pair. (Hear.) It was stated that, with respect to the
faculty and possessory pews, this was the practice.
Another source of expenditure was the visitation fees
paid by churchwardens. The legal fees which they
were called on to pay were very inconsiderable ; still
the attendance of churchwardens at visitations
occasioned a very large expenditure. As far as
however as the attendance of churchwardens on this
occasion went, that attendance did not appear to be a
matter of very great necessity, therefore he would dis-
pense with it altogether, enabling the parochial clergy
to swear them in upon their appointment annually, and
not taking from them the power of making precentors
which they at present possessed. By the arrangement
at present proposed, it would be necessary to impose
some fresh check as to the expenditure. The check
now existing was very insufficient. By the present
practice the money voted for the repairs, &c.,
of churches, went out of the parish, but by
the regulations proposed it would be the reverse,
because all that might be voted would be kept within
the aespective parishes. Besides the amount to be ap-
plied would be limited, and when the claims upon the
church commissioners were larger than the sum at their
disposal would admit of being complied with, the claims
would have to be sent back. In addition to thisthere would
be this further check, that when the churchwardens
and parochial clergymen thought repairs necessary
they would have to call in the surveyor of the county
to examine and ascertain whether or not those repairs
-42.---_ were absolutely imperative ; the surveyors would have
HOUSE OF COMMONS. to report to the quarter sessions, and, upon a certificate
The SPEAKER took the chair at a quarter past five from the quarter sessions only would the repairs be
authorised to be made. The county surveyors were
o'clock. men of the highest trespectability, and this could not
Lord HO WI C K brought up a return of the num- fail to be a satisfactory arrangement, and such as
ber of writs that had been issued from the different
would prevent any extravagant outlay. It might be
courts during the last year ; also, the report of the
said that he had adverted to no provision for a large
Chancery Commision ; which were ordered to lie on
the table. . number of bills and other things that might be
considered as luxuries to churches.—( Laughter.) If
Upon the motion of Mr. MAXWELL, the Lanark- those things were absolutely necessary, he had no
shire Roads Bill was read a second time.
Mr. TOOKE presented a petition from the mer-
doubt that by:voluntary, contributions they would be
ot. It was probable e roosition f
chants, bankers, and other inhabitants of the borough
hon.
friend the member forth at if thExeter had beepn adopted is
of Truro, in Cornwall, against the Hailes Railway
Bill. viz., to leave the whole to voluntary contributions,
that would have been quite sufficient.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. C ARTWRIGHT presented a petition from
but he thought in-the present state of the church of
the farmers and grasiers of the county of Northampton
England, regard being had to the principles for which
against the Islington Market Bill ; also a petition from
the church establishment existed, it would not have
C otsgrove, in Northamptonshire, against the Stony
Stratford Bridge Bill. been consistent with those principles to have left the
thing in that way. Of course it was impossible for
Lord ALTHORP said that before moving the order
him to know how this proposition would be received
of the day for the house to resolve itself into a corn-
by those who were firmly attached to the church,
mittee upon the subject of the church rates, he had
as little did he know in what light the Dissenters
certain petitions to present upon the subject from the
themselves would receive it. ( Hear, hear, hear.)
dissenters of Cricklade, Houston, and Grove, in North-
This he was confident of, that with respect to the
am
inns and from Milton, in Essex ; also, a
petition from the vicar and churchwardens of Thax- church, the maiutenance of churches in repair would
ate. be placed upon a better footing. If things remained as
lead, against the separation of church and st
they were churches would not be repaired, as the
Mr. FINN said that he and other Irish members
had a great number of petitions to present, for a re- greatest difficulty hae already occurred. With respect
to the dissenters, he would say that they did not object
peal of the union: As he understood it to be the usual
course, he hoped permission would be granted to pre- to the allowance, but to the principle of imposing any
sent them to-morrow evening, without making any tax peculiarly for the purposes of the established church.
This was the objection they made, and he might say,
speech upon them. therefore, that as far as both parties were concerned,
Mr. PETER submitted to the house whether,
The effect of this measure would be, to give satisfac-
having a case of breach of privilege—viz., the inter-
ference of a Peer of the realm with an election, his, Lion. There was another point which was not imme-
(Mr. Peter's) motion ought not to take precedence of diately relevant, but which the house ought to consi-
der, namely, that this measure would effect not only a
the orders of the day. relief to the scruples of the dissenters, but relieve from a
The SPEAKER said that there were two questions
before the house, the one whether they should act in tax the people of England. They proposed to apply
conformity with the rules of the house, this being an to the purposes of church rates 250,000/. a year out of
the land tax. while the sum hitherto raised etas about
order day, and the other whether they would make an
exception and let the honourable member's mo- 600,0001., the last sum was 560,0001., the measure would
lion take precedence. It was true that this was a relieve the people from a tax that pressed upon them
question of privilege, and such had always had to this amount. (Hear, hear.) There had been great
precedence, but then those questions were always extravagance heretofore in the expenditure of this
money through the churchwardens having an interest
limited to such as the house had to deal with, and to
judge and decide upon. The motion of the hon. as tradesmen in making improvements, from which
member, being an address to the Crown to exercise its cause much extravagance had arisen. (Hear,
prerogative, could never be considered as coming hear, hear.) He had gone through his plan,
within such questions of privilege. and had stated the grounds upon what he
The house then resolved itself into a committee. relied :he did not know the course of objection
CHURCH RATES. which the hon. member for Middlesex meant to take ;
Lord ALTHORP said he presented the petitions he only knew, from what that hon. member said, that
from dissenters, complaining of their grievances, he intended to make some objection. He could not
because he was against the principle of dis- object to the application of part of the land tax, as it would
senters being compelled to pay church rates. He by relieving the whole country to a large amount, and
thought that there was a difference between tithes and the substitution was not a new tax, but the division of
church rates, inasmuch as the latter were uncertain in existing taxes. He felt confidence, therefore, that the
their amount, and levied on dissenters as a sort of house wauld support him in moving that, after a
compulsion to worship in a manner different from ce.tain time, to be fixed, church rates should
their conscientious belief. The dissenters had a right cease, and that, in lieu of them, his Majesty
to complain of their grievances, and the legislature had be requested to grant out of the land-tax a
a right as well to take such steps as would relieve them. sum not exceeding 25,0001. for the repair of churches,
The present state of the law was unsatisfactory to the that sum to be expended in such manner as Parliament
church, both in the obstinate refusal of the dissenters to should think fit. ( Hear, hear.)
pay the assessment, and in the inefficiency of the remedy Mr. H UME disapproved entirely of the measure
left the collectors by the power of the law. The brought forward by the noble Lord. It would not
legislature should consequently enact some measures satisfy the dissenters, nor the members of the
which would have the proper effect of removing the established church. It seemed as if the bench
complaint and improving the remedy, by rendering the of Bishops had been at the noble Lord's elbow when
assessment more just, and of course more easily he arranged that measure. It was merely taking the
brought in. Two plans were suggested to effect hand from the right pocket and putting it into the
that ; but then neither seemed to him to effect left to take money still from the dissenters. Those
the wished-for object. The first was proposed by ecclesiastical commissioners were the most inimical
the ecclesiastical commissioners, but that did not go to the feelings of the dissenters, and to the real
to remove the grievances of the dissenters ; it merely interests of the established church ; and any law coming
aimed at the securing the church in its revenues. The from them, or to be enforced by them, must be consider-
adoption of that, therefore, would be unwise, as it ed compulsory on people's consciences, and be rejected.
Why had not the noble lord proposed that the sugar
would leave the difficulty unmitigated. Another plan
was to take a middle course—to avoid the g rest ex-
internal tax or the malt tax, or any other, should be applied
penditure that was necessary for the
to the purpose of the payment of these rates ?
decorations of churches, and to relieve the dis-
There was no reason why one tax should be preferred
senters from contributing their money to that purpose. to another, but he ascribed it all to the cunningness
It had been alleged by those who advocated the claims of the clergy who concurred that the loud tax was
of the dissenters, that it was not so much the amount more secure than any other, and therefore he choose
that was objected to as their being compelled He was therefore right in assuming that th
rs.
e
bench of bishops had been his lordships advise
to contribute for the support of a church to
hear.) It was a proposition to take from the
which they did not belong ; and although their Hear,
publicp revenues a sumsupport for the of the church,
exemption from the payment of rates for the embel-
the noble lord, with his usual candour, had admitted
lishment of the church might diminish the church
an extraordinary fact—that the greatest extravagance
rates, it would not satisfy them. Another proposition
had been exhibited in the management of the church
that had been made was,to continue the church rates, but
rates heretofore, and he now proposed to give them the
to exempt Dissenters from t
would
concerned, be satisfactory, ttlement of their claims let them give up the whole
but the effect of it he (Lord A. ), need not say would be 13
detrimental to the interests of the established church, of their revenues, and then the house would put them
for they could not have the least doubt that if it was in the budget, and grant them whatever theythought
once said that Dissenters were exempted, the number proper. ( Laughter. ) There was no alternative.
of those who professed to be dissenters would be very
(Laughter.) He (Mr. H.) was not, however, pre-
pared to meddle with the revenues of the church yet.
and cries of "Oh I") He would ask
much increased. He, therefore, could not bring him-
self to make such a proposition, because it would (Laughter,
up as if he had made some monstrous proposition ha
not
d
be quite contrary to every principle of justice the noble lord, and his friends who cheered
he ever brought forward any measure that he did
and fairness. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Another pro-
position, which he understood had been made by the
hon. member for Exeter, was to do away with church wish to carry by conviction. But probably the heads
rates altogether, and substitute nothing in their place, of the noble lord and his friends were at that
but leave the money now levied by the church rates to moment ;full of the ideas of robbery and spoliation.
be raised by voluntary contributions. It might or He
bery (of any establishment never ;
what he wisp hed for was that
Mr. H.) would advocate soliation and rob-
might not be, that the voluntary contributions would
be sufficient ; in some cases it would be sufficient, some proposition would be made to that house.
,for the purposes of maintaining the established
church, and not whether an established church
but he, (Lord A.) was far from certain that this would, The question was, whether the funds were sufficient
generally speaking, be the case. The dissenters called
upon that house not to require of them to contribute to 1
the support of a church to which they did not i
was necessary. Then 'the noble lord stated
belong, but one consequence of the existence of an one reason why 200,000/, should be taken from the
public taxes to support the church ? Had he
established church (and it was a principle which he '
would always advocate) was,
laid any documents bell); the house, to show that the
be provided for the support of that some means should
its fabric. (Hear.) On funds were not amply sufficient ? He thought
these grounds he (Lord A.) could not have acceded there were more than enough, and if anything would
to any of the propositions to which he had alluded. I injure that church this extravagant proposition would

SECOND EINVTION.
SUN OFFICE, Seven o'clock.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT,

THIS EVENING.

HOUSE OF LORDS•

Lord HOWARD DE WALDEN presented a
petition from the dissenters of the chapelry in York,
praying for relief.
The Earl of RADNOR presented petitions from
Carmarthen and Brecknock to the same effect. Also a
petition from a parish in the county of Down for a
repeal of the union.
The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from
Topsham, and from the Wesleyan methodists of
Exeter for the better observance of the Sabbath.

The Duke of -WELLINGTON presented a peti-
tion from a parish in the county of Derby, in support
of the established church.

V••,.
Lord WYNFO RD presented a petition from Wil-
mington to the same effect.
The Earl of DURHAM presented petitions from
the Protestant Dissenters of Newcastle on Tyne, Dun-
stable, Bury, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Gainsborough,
praying for a separation of Church and State.
Lord STRANGFORD gave notice that he should
to-morrow move for certain papers connected
with the subject which he had brought under their
lordship's notice on Friday last relative to smuggling
on the coast of France.

do it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In Lancashire only
the land tax amounted to 12,0001., and Warwick
it was 25,000/. No tax could be more unequal than the
land tax. In fact the noble lord contemplated raising
his plan upon a delusion. Such a measure would give no
satisfaction to dissenters. Then what would Ireland
and Scotland say ? Episcopal England and Catholic
Ireland, and Presbyterian Scotland, would equally
oppose this measure.
(LEFT SPE.% ELNG. )