The Sun.
London, England, 1856-03-11 00:00:00

great; with reference to postal arrangements with Spain,
but they were not in a sufficiently advanced stage to be
presented to the house.
JUVENILE CRIMES.
In reply to a question,
Mr. SCOTT said that on Thursday he in-
tended to have brought a motion on with reference
to juvenile crime on Thursday next ; but as it was
doubtful whether he could bring it on on that day, he
should do so as soon fag possible after Easter. He in-
tended then to move, for a select committee to
inquire into the increase of crime amongst juveniles
and females.
SALARIES OF CUSTOMS OFFICERS.

Sir S. NORTHCOTE asked the Secretary to the
Treasury whether any petition had been received by the
Treasury lon the Board of Customs 'from the officer
in the depot of the Receiver-General of Customsh
eir
for
an increase of their salaries in consequence
of their
official labours, whether any answer had been re-
turned to that petition, and whether there would be any
objection to lay the papers on the table of the house ?
Mr. WILSON considered, under all the circumstances,
it would not be desirable to lay the correspondence on
the table of the house.
BAY ISLANDS.
In answer to a question from Mr. M. GIBBON,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the warrant constitut-
ing the islands in Honduras Bay into a colony under
the name of Bay Islands was dated March, 1852, and
the first appointment of a presiding magistrate was
dated Aug. 5, 1852.
LOCAL DUES ON SHIPPING.
In answer to a question from Sir F. ru......EaieErt,
Lord PALMERSTON said that he proposed to
move the appointment of the committee on the
Local Dues on Shipping Bill on Thursday next,
and as the motion of the learned gentleman ap-
peared to meet the views of the. Government with refer-
ence to the duties of that committee, he intended to
adopt it
POLICE COUNTIES AND BOROUGH BILL.
Sir G. GREY, in moving-the second reading of this bill
said that although when bringing in this measure he made
a short statement as to the reasons. which had induced her
Majesty's Gdvernment to introduce it to the house, yet so
much misconception had since prevailed as to the object
and scope of the bill and the effect of its provisions, and
such determined opposition had been expressed by an in-
fluential class, not merely with respect to certain clauses,
but as to the whole bill, that he felt it his duty, on the
• present occasion, to state its nature, provisions, scope,
and effect; and also to: mention the modifications which
Government were prepared to make in it on the sugges-
tion of parties in favour of the bill, who had been
good enough to state their opinions to him with a
view of removing objections to the measure, and at the
same time rendering it more efficacious for the detec-
tion of crime and the apprehension of offenders. It was
necessary to call the- attention of the house to what had
been done by the house itself in respect to this measure.
In the year 1853 it appointed a committee on the subject,
who examined a great variety of witnesses, including seve-
ral magistrates of counties and boroughs, chairmen of
quarter sessions, tenant farmers, landowners, and heads of
police, both in counties and boroughs ; and he thought it
was impossible to say that those witnesses, many of whom
wore well known to members of this house, and some of
whom were themselves members of the house, were net
folly entitled by their character and'position to give an
opinion as to the matters referred to the committee which
the house must receive with attention and respect. (Hear.)
The committee made two reports. The first consisted solely
of evidence, the second was a report of further evidence,
accompanied by a Belies of resolutions, all of which were
agreed to either unanimously or by very large majorities
•
of the committee, and which any one must feel to have
been fully borne out by the evidence contained in their re-
port. The principal points established before that com-
mittee were these. First, it was established by accumulated
evidence that the county police, wherever it had been esta-
blished under the existing acts, which rendered it op-
tional in the justices of counties to adopt a comity consta-
bulary or not, had been attended with very beneficial re-
sults, and that those results had been chiefly evincedin the
increased prevention and detection of crime, the repres-
sion of the vagrancy, and the consequent increase in the
• value of the property both of landlorde and occupying te-
nants. (Hear,) The evidence also showed conclusively the
utter inadequacy of the system of paying constables and
superintending constables—(hear)—and equally conclu-
sively the obstructions which were placed in the way of
the apprehension of offenders and the repression of crime
by the partial application of the existing acts —a police
force existing iu one county and none in another, afford-
ing the means of escape to criminals, and thus preventing
the detection and punishment of crime. The evidence fur-
ther went to show that where the.police were inefficient it
arose from the want of co-operation between the borough
and county police force ; and that the expense—or
rather the apprehended expense —had hitherto acted as
the great bar to the general adoption of a police force, the
evidence going to prove that where a good and an efficient
police existed there expense was saved in many other re-
peats by the police discharging many duties which in other
places were performed by other agencies, and by the pro-
tection they gave to property, which in other counties was
exposed and liable to depredation. (Hear, bear.) Amongst
the witnesses who were examined before the committee
was an eminent magistrate of Hampshire, the hon. gentle-
man the member fox the University of Oxford (Sir W.
Hea,thcote), and he bole testimony to the fact that since
the establishment of a rural police in that county there
had been much less undetected crime, and that the
Offence of housebreaking in the daytime had greatly
ditninished. A large amount of evidence was given as
o the advantages which the county constabulary
e•eaferred on the poorer classes of the community
vapeoially. Witness after witness stated that the poor
man enjoyed the advantage of protection to his pro-
perty, without any expense, to, himself, to an equal
eeatee with the protection which was afforded to tho pro-
perty of the rich ; and Capt. M'Hardy, the chief constable
of Essex, gave evidence to the 'effect 'that this was the
great recommendation of the constabulary in that county.
With regard to the expense of establishing a county con-
stabulary, it appeared from the evidence that the appre-
hensions on that subject had been very much exaggerated,
Capt. M`Harely stating distinctly, as is Essex, that the
saving effected showed almost a balance in favour of the
county by the establishment of the existing constabulary,
whilst a report from a committee of magistrates for Hamra
shire, of which the Speaker of this house was a member,
showed that a saving of not less than 1,5001. a-year must
have been effected in that county. The resolutions of the
select committee of this house were in accordance with the
evidence to which he had referred, and were, in effect, that
it was most desirable that legislative measures should be
introduced without delay by the Government rendering the
adoption of an efficient police force on a uniform principle
imperative throughout Great Britain. Several gentlemen
in various parts of the house had also urged upon the Go-
vernment, the importance of taking up the report of the
committee, and endeavouring to form a police force which,
• founded mainly upon its recommendations, would establish
a more efficient police throughout the country, and render
unnecessary those isolated attempts to improve the system
which had been justly condemned by the committee in
their resolutions. It was in accordance, therefore, with
that which he understood to be the general wish of the
house, and with his own sense of the duty which devolved
upon him in the office he held, being satisfied that there was
ample room for improvement both as to the county and
borough police, that ho had endeavoured during the recess
to frame a bill which would accomplish the object that the
committee and the house had in view, and at the same time
respect, as far as possible, that principle which he was not
prepared to infringe, the principle of local management
and control iu the administration of the police force.
(Cheers.) He would now describe the state of the law and
the facts as to counties; and next the state of the law and
the facts as to boroughs. He would then leave the house
to say whether, in its opinion, there was room for improve-
ment or not, and, with respect to the provisions of the
present bill, whether they were such as were calculated to
effect the object required. By the existing constabulary
acts it was optional with the magistrates of a county to
adopt a county constabulary or not. If any county did
adopt a constabulary, it was left to the justices to deter-
mime how many constables should be provided, subject to
this proviso, that the numbers should not exceed one in one
thousand of the inhabitants, the Secretary of State having
power to make rates for the government, pay, and clothing
of the force, and thejustices of appointing a chief constable
subject to the approbation of the Secretaryof State. In 20
counties, and in two of the ridings of Yorkshire, no county
constabulary had yet been appointed, whilst in seven other
counties it had only been partially established. In short,
he believed that half the surface of England and Wales was
at present unprovided with an efficient county constabu-
lary. The process of establishing a police force in the
counties where it now existed had been a very gradual one.
The system had generally been extended in this way : a
. county having established a police force, and the adjoining
county having none, the inconveniences experienced by
the latter were so great that they had been induced, partly
by witnessing the results of the system in the neighbour.
ing county, and partly by witnessing the inconveniences
which arose from thieves and other bad characters being
driven within their bounds, to exercise the option given
them by act of Parliament, and establish a police force in
their turn. In the county of Surrey, for instance,
within the last two years there was no county con-
stabulary • but the metropolitan police district abutted
on one side of it, and the Hampshire police on another.
Proposals had bowl made for establishing a county con-
stabulary iu Surrey, but the dread of the expense and
the displeasure of the ratepayers were, he presumed,
the principal reasons for those proposals not being
adopted. Well, there being no county constabulary, a
Tbang of housebreakers and burglars, known as the " FriM
ay gang, were allowed with impunity to meet at their
places of rendezvous to °once •t, their schemes of plunder
and depredation, and at last they consummated their
crimes and horrified the whole county by breaking into a
clergyman's house and murdering its owner. What was
the consequence ? At the next Surrey quarter sessions no-
tice of motion was given for the establishment of a county
constabulary, and he believed the magistrates unanimouily
—at all events by a very large majority—resolved upon
the establishment of a police force in the county. That
force had since been established, and he understood it was
one of a most efficient character. But the question was,
whether it was desirable to delay the exercise of the
option given by the act of Parliament until some such
crime as that he had mentioned had been perpetrated?
(Hear.) He (Sir G. Grey) did not at that moment
see his hon. friend the member for the West Riding
of Yorkshire (Mr. B. Denison) in his place ; but that
hon. gentleman had given notice of his intention to
oppose the second reading of the present bill. Well, what
was the description given of the west riding of Yorkshire?
In the first place a petition had been presented to the house
by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of
Lancaster (Mr. Baines), from certain justices of the peace
in the county palatine of Lancaster and the west riding of
Yorkshire, wherein the petitioners stated that in 'the
county palatine there was a numerous and efficient rural
elicit, established under the 2d and 3d Vict. and 3d and 4th
Vict., which had for 16 years past been in active opera-
tion; that in the west riding of Yorkshire there was no
other police fcrce than the parish constables and 30 super-
attending constables, recently appointed under the sth and
6th Vict., chap. 109; that in the west riding a large
amount of undetected crime existed, and many offences
against good order were committed and remained unpu-
nished, and that the efforts of the magistrates to discharge
their duties were c ften rendered useless and of no avail
for want of a more active and efficient constabulary; that
in Lancashire, w: ere an efficient police force did
exist, they exper;wh ed no such difficulty; and that in
their, opinion the bill now balers the house would operate
most beneficially in (:i taste within their jurisdiction, and
enable them to diielarge their duties as magistrates with

greatly increased advantage. That petition was signed by the letter of the law to be broken, in order that its spirit the risk of such jealousies and animosities as would inevi.
many magistrates residing on the border of the two coun- might not be defeated by the non-appointment of a gentle- tably render future legislation upon the subject necessary.
ties, and the information they gave as to the state of crime man in all other respects most efficient for the discharge of (Hear.) But was it not a delusion to talk of pecuniary aid
in Yorkshire, and as to the difficulty of detecting it, was the duties of the office. There were one or two other points from the Government in such a case as that now under
borne out by other documents, including a letter from Mr. in which the law was altered. The first had reference to consideration, for where was the money so freely tendered
J. Peel, of elitheroe. Two days ago a petition was sent to the power which justices were to exorcise on appointing to come from but out of the taxes paid by the people ? Tho
him by occupiers of land and owners of property in a village county constabulary, in dividing the counties into districts right hon. baronet had repeated that night a charge ,he
in the West Riding, praying that the bill might be passed for the purpose of equalising the rates. The expediency of , previously made against the boroughs, that they did not
into law. He also received a letter from Lord Scarborough, this was shown by the unequal distribution of the popula- ' maintain a sufficieut force to protect the towns in case of
who stated that having himself experienced the very great tion in agricultural diatrictsa small population beingspread riot. Did he seriously mean to imply that a body of police
inconvenience the district had suffered by being deprived over A large, andin mannfacturingdistricts a large number were constantly to bo kept up to act as though a town was
of the benefit and protection of a rural police, he heartily 11 ing within a narrow compass. There was great appre- lin a state of siege ? (Laughter.) The charges against the
concurred in the prayer of the petition, which was prince- heneion entertained that the police rate would fall une- ; efficiency of the borough police he did not believe to be
pally signed by persons resident on his estate. His lordship dually on such counties, and it was therefore thought de- . well founded; he was sure they were not as regarded Wal-
also added that the parish constables were perfectly useless suable, as the county constabulary was no longer to be sail, the borough he had the honour to represent. The plan
in preventing offences. The right hon. baronet then re- optional, that on the representations of the ratepayers, the that had been constantly adopted in that borough was to
ferred to the address of Mr. 0. Wilson, the chairman of the justices should be required to exercise the discretion now get the best men that could be obtained, and all considera-
Quarter Sessions at Sheffield, on the 10th of March last, in vested in them by law, and to divide the counties into dis- tions of favouritism were invariably laid aside. Indeed in
which he made allusion to the great increase which had tricts, so as to equally proportion the rates. He now came every case the successful candidate for the highest position
taken place in the cases of violence at these sessions. He to the provisions of the bill which affected alike boroughs amongst the police bad been a stranger to the town. The
(Sir G. Grey) thought that the state of things disclosed in and counties, which contained a declaration as to the duties ' great majority of the petitioners who had addressed the
those different communications was very discreditable to a of the police. The most material was that which em- house, instead of receiving the bill with pleasure, and as a
civilised country, and more especially so when he took into powered her Majesty to appoiut inspectors to ascertain the relief from those evils under which they laboured, looked
account the great wealth of the West Riding of Yorkshire, state of the police as regarded numbers and efficiency ; upon it with alarm and called for its immediate rejection.
to which they particularly related. In consequence of the and this power was inserted in accordance with the recorn- I They saw in it a principle of centralisation which was most
absence of a county constabulary in Somersetshire, the mendation of the commission of 1839. It was owing to ' obnoxious to an Englishman's views. (Hear.) He (Mr.
magistrates, from a sense of the inefficiency of the parish the circumstances reported by that commission, and to ; Forster) knew perfectly well that uo improper advantage
constables, frequently applied for the assistance of the other circumstances which had since
arisen, that a portion i would be taken by the present Home Secretary, or of any
police in Bath, where there was an admirable bormighforce. of the police expenses was to be defrayed out of the Con- , Cabinet of which he might bo a member, of the power this
Surely that was a state of things which ought not to be solidated Fund. It was necessary that some means should bill would confer upon him ; but it could not be said so
allowed to exist. He would now proceed to advert to the be adopted to see that the police were efficient, and for that confidently how another minister might use the power, and
existing law and facts with regard to boroughs. It was said purpose inspectors were essential. He bad heard no objee- he asked the house therefore to be cautious how it tam-
that, though the bill might be very useful so far as it related tion to that provision, and he believed that Parliament , pored with the municipal institutions of the country.
to counties, there was no reason why Parliament should in- would agree in the reasonableness of the proposition. There (Hear.) The boroughs knew that they had done nothing
terfere to provide a more efficient police for any boroughs was another point, with respect to the power to grant an-
to forfeit the confidence of the house, and they felt that
in the kingdom, and that such an interference on the part perannuation allowances to the chief constables of counties; ' they had reason to complain strongly of the course which
of Parliament would be a violation of the first principles there ought to be such a power to reward meritorious offi- ; had been taken in reference to them since 1853. They
of self-government as laid down by the Municipal Act. cars, and he therefore anticipated no objection to the adop- I were most improperly treated by the committee of that
Now, had Parliament altogether abdicated its functions in tion of the clause.- He had now stated all that was neces- ! year, which was composed entirely of county members.
this respect, and had it no right to take additional precau- sary with regard to counties. He trusted that the house , Looking to the composition of that committee, aad to the
tions to render the police for boroughs more efficient than would have no objection to allow the second reading of the ; course of procedure before it, it was never for a moment
they were at present ? The sth and 6th Wm. we chap. bill. He had already received many valuable suggestions supposed that the committee was to take into consideration
76, gave power to the town council of boroughs to appoint from-hon. members, and he was ready to listen to any the borough police, and no evidence on behalf of the bo-
a watch committee, which should provide a sufficient num. others they might think proper to make. He had been sur- roughs was tendered. When the report came out the Bo-
ber of fit persons as policemen to keep peace by day and prised to find opposition to the bill from boroughs of a kind roughs were astounded by the inaccuracy of-the statements
night, and give ample protection to life and property in which, to him, was wholly unaccountable. Some boroughs contained in it, and demanded a fresh inquiry, but nothing
the borough. Did Parliament, as was assumed by those had been in favour, and others had taken no part in was heard in reply until 1854, when a bill was introduced
who opposed the bill, stop there—did it vest the whole the matter. There had been deputations from town coun- by the noble lord now at the head of the Government, who
authority with regard to the police absolutely in the be. cils. He would particularly refer to Manchester, which was then the Secretary of State for the Home Department
ough authorities, and give an implied pledge that it would objected only to certain portions of the bill • and he —a bill which was withdrawn in accordance with the gene-
not in any way interfere with the police for the future? The would, therefore, proceed to consider the reasonable objec- rally expressed wishes of the country. What had occurred
act did not stop there. There was a provision in the act tione of those who were favourable to the principles of the since that time to justify the Government in again moving
which, although not regularly complied with, required that bill. He, found great misapprehension prevailing in some in the matter, and in dragging up representatives of local
a quarterly return should be sent to the Home Secretary by quarters as to the bearing of the provisions of the bill on authorities from all parts of the country to protest against
every municipal borough of the numberef police within the local government. What was the object of the bill ? It their proceedings, and to defend the sights which th'
borough, and the regulations made for their government by was to provide an efficient poliedey
force, having due regard thought wore secured to -them by the Municipal Act
of
the watch committee, in order that the Secretary of State, to local control. It had been asserted that by this bill 1845 ? (Hear.) He regretted very much that, as a gene-
who here exercised the central authority which was so the management of the police would be transferred from ral supporter of her Majesty's Government, although, at
much objected to, might see at one glance whether the bo- the town councils and watch committees to the Secretary the same time, a strictly independent member, he was
rough authorities fulfilled the directions of the statute. of State. To that he could give an unqualified denial, obliged to resist the measure which the Government had
Therefore, Parliament did not abdicate its functions. Pri- and would refer for proof to the bill in the hands of hon. introduced. Her Majesty's Ministers must bear in mind
sons were placed under the control of the municipal bodies members. By the bill, the management of the police was that it was the Government that had deserted the ho-
by the same act, but inquiries had since been made into the not to be taken from the local authorities ; there was to roughs, and not the boroughs who had deserted the Ge-
state of prisons, both in counties and boroughs, and acts be no interference with the appointment or dismissal of verument. (Hear.) If he might venture to make a sug-
passed amending that law, and giving to the Home Secre- constables, and there were no compulsory powers in the gestion to the right hon. baroaet the Home Secretary, it
tare, the right of supervision over local control and super- bill as to the number of police to be provided. Not wish- would be that he should withdraw the present bill, with
intendence, for the benefit of the community at large, as ing to present a bill to the house theoretically perfect, he a view to introduce another which would be free from the
well as for the benefit of the inmates of the prisons them. had declined to insert powers to appoint constables cr to objections to which that now before the house was un-
selves. He did not see why, after that had been done with determine what number each borough should appoint. doubtedly liable. (Hear.)
regard to prisons, without any objection and complaint of The right hon. member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington) Captain SCOBELL,
ee in seconding the amend, said
the practical exercise of the powers confided by Parliament had suggested that it would be desirable to fix a minimum ; he was asked to be a
witness on the committm t entw
owhich
to the Secretary of State, that there should be an exagge- but he (Sir G. Grey) did not think that it would be ad- the hon. gentleman who had just sat down had referred,
rated apprehension—forsohemustcallit—astothe supposed visable ; and he emphatically denied that by this bill he but he refused, knowing how the committee was consti-
abuse of the powers which it was now proposed to give that wished to doanything more thanestablish onenuiform stun- tuted, and that the majority of its members had made up
Minister in reference to the police. This question had been dard of police throughout England. By the fourth clause their minds how they should decide before they entered
argued as if only particular localities were interested in it, it was provided that constables of boroughs should have upon the inveitigation. The feeling in Bath (the town he
whereas it affected the country at large. The public the same power in counties which county constables had represented) was universal against the bill ; but if he were
had a direct pecuniary interest in the matter. When now in boroughs; be had never heard any objection to not of the same opinion he would not take that view of it
the Municipal Act was passed, all the expenses of pri- that clause, and he thought that, for the better adminis- in the house. In his own county (Somerset), in which he
sons and prosecutions were entirely borne by the tration of justice, it was expedient that constables of had taken an active past as a magistrate, the amount of
community within which these prisons and prosecutions counties and boroughs should concurrent jurisdiction. crime was as small as in any of the previous 25 years, with
were, but Parliament had since thrown a large portion of The fifth clause provided for the performance of the one exception, and that was a county without etny rural
those expenses on the Consolidated Fund; and therefore duties of the constables, which were to be regulated by police. In SOmerset and Devon counties, without any
if, owing to a deficiency in the police of any county or the justices or watch committees, and power was given rural police, the amount of crime in 1851 was lin 590. In
borough there was a great increase of crime, the additional by the Secretary of State to make such regulations from Gloucestershire, Wilts, and Southampton counties that
cost entailed by that fell immediately upon the public. time to time as might be necessary. He would state the had the advantage of a rural police, the amount of crime
He now proposed to deal with the allegations that there object of this clause being introduced into the bill, and, was lin 478. So much for the argument that criminals
was no evidence to show that the borough police through- at the same time, mention that this was one of the were driven out of counties by a rural police into counties
out the kingdom was not aaperfect as it could be, and that clauses to which great objections had been made which where there was none, and where they might with the
there was no room whatever for the interference of Parlia- objections, he wees bound to think, were entitled to greater facilities carry on their unlawful pursuits. He ad-
meat. If these allegations could be satisfactorily proved, great weight. But the objectof the clause had been greatly milted. that in many parts of the country parish es
ho would not be at all disposed to encounter the opposi- misunderstood by some and misrepresented by others.
The had not proved an efficient body of officers, ut constables
bthat was
tion of so manyof his hon. friends for the sake of advocat- clause in question had reference to the saving of expense the fault of the system, not of the men, who were meat in-
ing any mere theory. A return was moved for a year and to boroughs and counties, by appointing constables who adequately paid. A policeman got, perhaps, 601. a year,
a half ago, giving the number of police and the amount of should devote the whole of their time to the performance of a parish constable perhaps not 60s. Had it been shown
population in each borough under the Municipal Act. their duties, including those which in a well-regulated po- that time ulic were in favour of this bill ? The right hon.
Some slight variation had subsequently taken place, and lice force—such as inspection of weights and measures, barons, had b
submitted a few petitions and had read letters
he had endeavoured to supply that so as to render the re- serving notices and precepts, suppression of nuisances, Ste. Irons a few private individuals, including superintendents
turns as I correct as possible. There were several of the —were performe.l gratuitously by the constables; bet of rural police, who were, of course, interested in keeping
smaller boroughs in which no attempt had been made to which could not, it was believed, bo enforced by the local up a system under which they enjoyed good appointments.
comply with the requisitions of the Municipal Act. There authorities without extra pay. It was suggested that as But what was such testimony ceenpared with the 100 cor-
were eight boroughs with an aggregate population of doubts existed on this point they should be removed, and poratioes who had petitioned the house uuder their corpo-
-34500, in which there was only one policeman for day that express powers should be given to impose those duties rate seal. There had been, up to the last returns, 145 pe-
and night duty. In 20 other boroughs, comprising a popu• on the police, and with that view this clause was intro- titions against the bill and only sin _favour of it, a pretty
lation of 82,000, only two policemen discharged the duties dice!. It had been objected that
this clause as it stood conclusive proof, he thought, of the state of feeling out of
imposed by the act. With regard to the larger boroughs, would give power to the Secretary of State to determine doors. It had been said that in some of the boroughs the
he was happy to say that the town councils of Liverpool, the duties of the police. To meet that objection he would number of police was too small ; if that were the case, and
Birmingham, Bristol, Newcastle, Hull, and some other propose the omission of the latter portion of the clause, and there was no doubt it was so, let it be altered by a proper
large and populous boroughs, had adequately fulfilled the leave it to the local authorities to determine what duties measure, but not by a bill which conferred such large powers
obligations imposed upon them by the Municipal Act, and the police should perform. The next clause, viz., the sixth, upon the Hoe Secretary, and swept away all the rights of
he did not think the present bill would have the effect of had been greatly objected to by the boroughs • the counties the municipal corporations. (Hear.) It had been stated that
making practically any alteration in the system of police were not concerned in it. The clause enabled the Secretary in certain cases one-fourth of the expense of the police was
already existing in boroughs of that class. He was sorry, of State to make rules for the government, clothing, pay, to be paid out of the Consolidator( Fund, but that fourth
however, to find that the same remark could not apply &0., of the police in the boroughs, in the same way and to only applied to the pay sal clothing of the police, so that
to those boroughs which, though of a secondary class, the same extent as they had with respect to the county all the remaining expenses would fall upon the boroughs,
were very important in respect to the extent of their police for the last 15 Wiled years. Apprehensions were enter- the Gent, in realit, not paying more than population. In In Ashton-under-Line, with a populationed that it was intended by the Secretary of State to sixth of tovernmhe whole amount y
of the expenses incurred. But,
of 30,000, there were only seventeen policeman. At Black- take altogether into his hands the power of regulating and oven if that were an advantage, was it to be supposed that
burn° there were only 46 policemen to a population of interfering with the local powers of the watch committees. the magistrates throughout the country would submit to
17,000; at Bolton, there wereonly 27 policemen to a popu- He mud again repeat that there was no such intention ;it be bribed by a mere money payment to the cornmi-sion of
lation of 61,000; at Okiham, there were but 33 policemen was only proposed to place boroughs in the same position as a great wrong upon those munisipal corporations ..% hich
to ^3,030; at Preston, there were only 37 policemen to counties; and he entertained no doubt, if the clause passed, they had so well defended. (Hear.) It was Lord Grey
30,000 inhabitants. Now, it was impossible to read these that the power would be exorcised in the seine unobjec- who gavo municipal corporations to England, and that was
numbers without feeling that it was utterly,impes,ihje tionable manner as it had been in the case of the counties the great glory of his day ; but now a member of his fan, ily,
that.the pollee force in these towns could adequately per- for the last 15 years, and would give rise to no interference and one bearing his name, was endeavouring to take them
form their duties. The amount of the police force was on the part of the Secretary of State. He would read the re- away. (Cheers.) If this bill passed, it would be impossible
proved to be insufficient by the frequent applications made gulations which had been in operation for counties for the to prophesy what would happen in future times. An ad-
from time to time for assistance to the military authorities last 15 yea: s. (The right bon. gentleman here read some par- ministraton was not worth two ars' purchase; and who
of the district, or the Horse Guards, or yeomanry, in order tion of the regulations.) He would venture to say that if the could tell how sacceedieg Govereryenents might turn upon
to keens the peace upon any extraordinary occasions. It words of the clause appeared too large and too wide, and the people those instruments which this bill would place
would be found that the chief constable of Lancashire had were likelyto accomplish more than was intended, he should in their hands. Our statesmen were now endeavouring to
repeated applications from the, numerous towns of that be glad to bear any reasons that might. b ged ; and if make peace abroad, while a member of the Government
county for aid. The chief constable said on some occasions the house thought proper he should be willing to give to was attempting to make war at home. (Cheers-) The
that aid was given, but on some others ho could not give Parliament thaapower which; as the bill at present stood, people would not be silent, for they would not submit to a
that aid, owing to the police under him being required in was vested in the Secretary of State. There would be sub- bill so thoroughly un-English—more fitted for Naples than
the county; and the more so, because many of those bo- stituted for the Bth clausoone which would secure the same for the people of this country. (Hear.) He (Capt. Scobell)
roughs had separated themselves from the county,
,and kind of information being regularly transmitted from time was perfectly suite of thin, that if the boroughs accepted
afterwards came to ask gratuitous assistance from the to time to the Secretary of State. The object was to obtain the bill in any form, the magistracy would be digging their
county which it could not give. In many of the counties that information regarding statistics of crime which Par- own graves, for they would soon be swept away by a bill
ho might also state the military outposts—it he might call liament had always asked for, and which he (Sir G. Grey) which would propose to have a universally paid m
them so—or detachments, had been called in and coucen- had pledged himself tq endeavour to obtain. If the bill tracy just as it was Dow proposed to have a universal po-
trated not only for the purpose of the present war, but to were committed pro forma with the view of having it re- lice under the direct influence of the Home Secretary. Be
avoid the serious evil to the habits and discipline of the Printed, he thought it would be found that the whole of believed the present bill was part of a plot to carry into
soldiers from their being so far away from head-quarters, the objections had been removed. Ile must now ask the effect that object. A return had recently been circulated
He (Sir G. Grey) had, in consequence of this state of things, house to affirm the principles of the bill, which, though amongst members, in which it was stated that there were
thought it his duty to issue I circular on the 28th March modified, would still retain a power over local control and 19 counties that had vastly increased in crime in 1854
last year, to a certain class of boroughs, warning them management. Amongst the petitions which bad been pre- as compared with the previous four years, e increase
that they must not depend for assistance on the counties. Rented was one from the City of London, which certainly being as much as 11 or 11 per cent.
Would the house
That circular was addressed to boroughs with' a popula- struck him with much surprise, because the City of Lou- believe that out of these 19 counties 13 bad a rural
tion of 28,000 and over, in which the police were not ono don had no interest direct or indirect in this bill. What police, which was supposed
to keep crime down ? One
in 1,0:0 to the inhabitants. From fourteen of those be- was the case of the City of London? He had not said one had a police partially, and the other five had none. He
roughs he had rezeived an answer favourable to the word of the constitution of the City police, but he woull said reject this bill. The alteration of it was nothing. It
bill, including. Leeds anti Wolverhampton, the latter now state that it was a most efficient force ; but under the was objectionable in any shape, and if modified now, it
borough enjoying the distinction of having petitioned City of London Police Act the most extensive powers were would be followed in its principle by measures of a sinai-
unanimously in favour of the present bill ; and he was reserved to the Secretary of State, who had greater control lar character.
informed that in those two boroughs steps had been in its management than the bill before the house hinted Mr. M. STRACY thought this bill was an honest and
taken for the immediate augmentation of the police, at. The corporation could not appoint a chief of police earnest attempt to give duo protection to piseperty. He
whilst other boroughs expressed themselves as satisfied without the sanction of the Crown, through the Secretary believed that this bill would provide an efficient force
with things as they were. He had received a letter from of State ; and when that officer hail been appointed, he both for the preservation of the peace at home, and, if
the Mayor of Stafford, dated the 4th of April last year, could not be substituted without the authority of the S,- necessary, for the resistance of an attack from abroad.
which stated that Stafford was the county town with a po- cretary of State. There was also a power in the City of sir Ge pEcHELL said the right hon. baronet had
pule.tien of about 12,000, the county gaol containing be. London Act which gave her Majesty, through the tsecre- failed to convince him of to hose bill. Tt would
tween 500 and 600 prisoners on an average, and yet there tary of State, power, without the consent of the corpora- be exceedingly injurious to those towns which were cities
were but one superinterelent and four policemen. At Pres. tion, to remove from his office the Chief Commissioner of in counties. Local acts were provided for efficient Police
ton there was a large population, and the police force was Police. Probably the reason why the corporation ob- establishments, but all those acts would be superseded by
quite inadequate. Portsmouth he knew had taken a very jested to the present bill was because they anticipatetl this bill. Hes,
regretted to have again to raise his voice
active part in opposition to this bill ; but he (Sir G. Grey) the introduction of a measure which would interfere with against centralisation. Constant inroads were being made
had several letters from Mr. Emmanuel, a jeweller and the constitution of their own 'body, and they now upon the independence of the rate-payers of the country,
silversmith in that borough, praying that the bill might be made common cause with the boroughs against the and now up started the right hon baronet with a bill, the
passed, and stating that the population was between present bill. (Hear, hear.) .Ho had now stated the rea- principles of which had been rejected two years ago. He
70,000 and 80,000, while there were only4oor 42 constables sons which induced the Government to introduce the bill, should, therefor?, eupport, the amendment. •
for day and night duty, and that during the month of Feb, anti the grounds upon which the Government asked the Colonel PACKE said that, from what had fallen from
in that year one-fourth of that number were absent, owing house to support it. If he had followed the advice given
either to depth or disease. From the Mayor of Plymouth him by the deputation who waited upon him, and insisted the other sidfe: it might. be inferred that this bill was in-
he had a letter, stating that a large number of persons in upon the withdrawal of the measure, he should grossly being a bill for the more effectual suppression of crime.
that borough looked to the bill with satisfaction, and have neglected his duty. (Hear, hear.) Ho would now
hoped for great advantages from it, adding that the whole t leave the bill to the decision of the house, and whether Ono of the greatest benefits of late years conferred on the
l poor was the system of allotments. This bill would
force of that town was only 45' to a population of from the house should consider it worthy of a second tea ling
rural
the holder of thosllot ets against de-
-55,000 to 60,000. He next came to Derby, and in a local or not, lee. (Sir G. Grey) should consider that he had dis- girvedators, which at thise momentaprotectionalethever much needed.
newspaper—the Mercury—of November last, he found a charged his duty in regard to the pledge he had given to
report from the superintendent of the watch committee, the house, (Hear.) There was nothing in the bill of whiych they boroughs could
id poor-
which stated that the police force of the borough consisted Lord PALMERSTON seconded the . reasonably complain. As to the inspectors, we law inspect no, inspectors of gaols, and of everything .elso
of ono superintendent., one inspector, three sergeants,,ooo two Mr. C. FOSTER moved as an amendment "That
motion.
the upon which that house required information ; and why
constables, and 27 policemen, to a population of 47
inhabitants. As to the efficiency of the police generally, bill be read a second time this day six months," The not then upon police matters. The towns and counties
it was an essential ingredient that strict attention should right hon. baronet, in an able speech, had consented to ought to, be as one upon police matters.
be paid to the regulations under which they acted. He remove the most obnoxious clauses of his bill, but he had Sir J. WALMSLEY said the objection to this bill
believed that in many of the large boroughs they had not done enough to justify the withdrawal of the amend.- was not to the more efficient establishment of police rage-
taken their rules in a great measure from those of the meat of which he had given notice. Even if he hail ' but to the interference of the Secretary of State in
lotions,
metropolitan police, which bled been found roost effi- eluded the boroughs from the operation of the bill, ea- clout. Still there were very great anomalies and defects. would not have removed all danger, for the prihciple of
I
One was that there was no provision against the pay- centralisation applied' this to •
year counties might next
meat of police constables by fees. He thought that if a year be attempted to be applied, with greater suCcess to the matter. The municipal bodies could carry on these
regulations. without such interference. This had been
proved ample, at all events, in two boroughs, with which
he war connected, namely, Liverpool and Leicester. Ho
could discover no justification for this measure in the
policeman was paid by fees and not by salary, there boroughs, for the Goveznment, by dividing the opposition,
speech of the .xig.i4 hole, baronet. Ile had made out no case
would be an unequal administration of the law, and the would have secured an easier victory over each: (tlear at all. Certairey not with regard to the boroughs. The
poor man would be in danger of not having justice done hear.) He quite agreed with the opinion the rich hon' bill was en unjustifiable interference with the regulations
him. In many of those regulations there was a prohibi- baronet had expressed, that it was necessary to hay© a of the boroughs of the country, and there wore petitions
tion against payment by fees; in some cases fees were al- more efficient police force throughout the country. There
lowed to be taken. As an instance of that system, there could `be no doubt about that being a matter yo.f social from 150 of the, princip d boroughs against the bill. How
was the borough of Leominster, in which the superinten- necessity, and if the object of the right hon. baronet hash
from
were there in favour of the bill ? Only ten. There
might have been errors committed in some of thwboroughs,
dent was paid by fees, and in his absence the police could been simply to impose on counties and boroughs where but that was no reason for legislutio'nlike this. The wisest
not act, as it would be infringing upon his fees. In Nor- there was no efficient police system to raise a force, leer-
wich payment by fees had existed, but the town council ing the superintendence and management f't to the •
ei resit thing for that house to do was to foster local self-govern-
had abolished the system, and it no longer existed. He dent magistrates, as, under the Municipal Act, the borough meat. The Government had shown no aptitude for wise
might say generally that where the police were most effi- police was left to the town council, he would not have administration, certainly not within the last•two years.
cent, in point of fact, there was the least opposition to the opposed it. More than that, he believed that such ap 0 Mr. SMYTHE fully concurred with the right hon. bare-
bill. In the city of York, with a population of 36,000, posal would have met with a general concurrence from rall- net' with respect to the necessity of au improved system of
there were only 29 police. He was not going to state any- parts of the country. (Hear, hear.) He did not at I police iu the West Riding of Yorkshire. With regard to
thing regarding York on doubtful authority. Be held in all agree with that part of the bill which gave to the city of York, he thought they would not have heard
t oaf I much of the squabbles in the to
the of York if it had
his hand a copy of the York Herald of February 17, 1855, policeman of one district the power of moving I not been for the interference of the Lord Mayor of York
containing a detailed re opt of a meeting of the city coun- that district in pursuit of an offender, whom h
cil. The first business brought before the meeting was mieht apprehend and place before a magistrate havinge with •the right hens baronet. The alterations which the
the reception of the report of the watch committee. No jurisdiction in the district were he was caught. There e hon, baronet had made in this bill had removed many of
sooner was that repoit presentid, and its adoption moved another portion of the right hon. baronet's statement from the objections to it, but he thought he had bettor withdraw
the bill, and introduce another applying to caunties only.
and seconded, than a town councillor made a long speech which he differed ; that was where he expressed an opinioeln Mr. BENTINCK concurred in the general objects of the
impugning the efficiency of the police, giving very circum- that there was a jealousy between the county anti the
stantial details, showing there was ample room for reform. borough police. His (Mr. Forster's) experience went di- bill. Any objection which he might have had to it had
That town ceunciller (Mr. Charlton) stated that the power rectly the other way, for he•had acted some years as a ma- been removed by the speech of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. W. J. FOX would much prefer that the right hon.
, of the police to prevent robberies was not so satisfactor gistrato for the county in which he resided, and had
thorns gentleman should withdraw the bill altogether and intro-
as it ought to be, and that he believed tillthey altered-the found the most harmonious feeling to exist between . duce a new one. •
system of paying the police by fees they never would be The right hon. Bart. having given up clauses 5 and 6, which
I better off. It appeared that the inapector of police in that related to the duties of the police in boroughs, he (Mr. . Mr. HENLEY complained that this was a measure to
1 city was himself the owner of several houses of ill-fame, Forster) was relieved from the remarks he intended making take away the constitutional rights of counties and be-
which were the resort of thieves and other bad characters. on those objectionable points. He should have been pleased roughs, and he hoped the two bodies would stand together
(hear.) That statement was not denied nor attempted to if the right hon: baronet had considered it his duty to give and defeat the measure. He cited several returns of crime
be palliated or defended. Here was a disgraceful abuse up the inspection clause for he thought the proposition in various parts of the country to show that an improved
years after the Municipal Act had passed, and yet the from its uncertainty, and from the power it gave the Go! i police had not diminished, crime. He was not surprised
chief magistrate of this.city of York had taken upon him- vernment td raise or lower the standard of police, was ; thretthe boroughs were at present uneasy in their minds,,
self to attack this bill. He would now proceed to state the highly objectionable. (Hear.) That -clause gave to the 1 which they had a good right to be. teethe eight imp.'
provisions of the bill. First as respected counties, By the Government the power to direct how many olicemen the : gentleman had , attempted to sweep away the peoperty of
existing law an option was given to the justices in quarter boroughs should• p • with g
maritime boron and now came another right hon. gen-
employ, thus palpably interfering with i
sessions to adopt a county constabulary ; it was pro- their local rights. The 10th clause empowered tho Govern- tlem an who proposed to sweep away the franchises of inland
,posed to take away that option and make it coinpulsory. , ment to inquire into the efficienoy of the county and bo- 1 and maritime boroughs alike. He had before shown that
All the counties would then be subject to the same provi- I rough police, and the 1 lth provided that when the Govern- the police did not repress crime ; he had farther to state
sions which now existed with respect to those counties ; merit had acted upon that inquiry, and directed how many . that it would not preserve order ; and he referred to tho
which, in exercise of the option, had established a consta- I should be employed, ono fourth of the expenses incurred I Hyde-park riots in proof of hie assertion. The right hon.
bulary force. It was objected that the county constabulary' should be paid out alit° Consolidated Fund. The whole gentleman defended his county from the charges brought
would then be subject to the Secretary of State for the power was placed in the hands of the Secretary of State 1 against the population in a petition presented by some
Home Department. but this bill only proposed to place all ,
who might delude boroughs to increase their number of. i clergymen and gentlemen in favour of this bill, and was
the counties upon the same footing as those which, for the ; police, at first by a small number, on the promise to n particularly wroth at the application to them of the obso-
last 15 years, had exercised the optional power of appoint- 1 part of the expense, and then they% would fled themseihaeYs i fete
word " criminous."
ing a constabulary, and he believed he might say, that in ;in this position, that if they did not constantly inc 1 Sir W. HEATHCOTE contended that tho bill would
the whole course of that time no difference of opinion had I the number according to his directions, he would take not affect either counties or boroughs so seriously as was
existed between the justices and elle Secretary of State as ; away the subsidy, and at any time he pleased throw the I represented ; the only point of any importance being that,
to the appointments which they made, and this unanimity ' whole of the
of opinion he attributed to the great care with which the he might harass the town-councils, who, he contended, payment upon the borough. (Hear.) Thus ;in return for a portion of their expenses being paid, both
I were to be subjected to a certain amount of inspection.
justicesmad, teeirappointtnents, them• at efficientmenhav- ought not to be placed in such a state of uncertainty IHe regretted that the boroughs were not to be placed on
ing been selected. There was only one instance in which a Such a power undoubtedly did away with that unifer,- the same footing with counties,. where the chief constable
question had arisen, and that wan as to the age of the mity and order which the bill professed to aim at. One had the appointment of all his subordinates, whereas in
party elected to chief• constable. In that case the justices of two things would happen. Either the towiecouucils— boroughs the appoiotment of the constables was in the
were desirous to appoint a person above the age allowed trite to those principles of municipal government which hands of the watch committees. Ho also contended, both
by law, and upon repotoentations being made as to the fit- they had always so faithfully defended—wmild refuse all on the ground of justice and expediency, that the .allopre
nese of the person appointed, the Home Secretary alloWed atseistance from GoYernment, or they would acce t lat - since of one-fourth of the expense by Government Neas no*
P A

enough to induce the counties and boroughs to institute
an efficient police.
Mr. J. B. SMITH thought that the bill ought to be met
by a direct negative. If it had come from the other side
of the house they would have had a- two hours' denuncia-
tion of Tory tyranny.froni the right hon. gentleman. The
right hon. gentleman had referred to the borough which
he (Hr. Smith) represented ; but the matter was in the
people's hands, and they acted as they thought best. Since
1812 there Lad been turn-outs, and the police had always
been sufficient for the emergency, except when in 1852 the
noble lord the member for the City of London had raised
an anti-Catholic cry, and the Roman Catholic chapel was
burnt dawn.
Mr. RICE rose amid cries of " Divide ;" and said that
the committee on the subject bad been fairly composed;
and the right hon. member for Oxford could find fault only
with one clause. Ha was not surprised at the opposition
from the boroughs. They might take it as an infraction of
their rights. But he asserted that there was not a shadow
of cause of complaint by the borough members as to the.
provisions of the bill. The Municipal Act admitted the
same principle which this bill comprised with regard to
the police. He hoped, as f;.r as the influence of the rime
Seeretaiy was concerned, that he would place the counties
and boroughs on the same footing. He did not tee why the
rules and regulations for the boroughs should not equally
apply to the counties. He would ask hon. gentlemen who
resided in counties if they had not there the same power
as they had before the police was introduced ?
Mr. DEEDES addressed the house amidst renewed cries
of "Divide." He opposed the bill as being against the
principle of local self-management, and contended there
was no necessity for making this a compulsory measure.
There had been no petitions from counties presented to the
house complaining that the ratepayers had applied to the
magistrates of the county for the establishment of a p lice,
and its being rearsed ; neither had there been any distur-
bances in the country calling for this measure, as there
•were in 1839. The only cause the Secretary of State had
alleged for the necessity of this measure was that it was in-
convenient for one county to establish a police force, and
for another county not to do so. He thought • the rate-
payeis were the best persons to judge of the necessity of
the establishment of a police force in their respective coun-
ties. He objected to all measures that tended towards
centralisation ; and if this measure were carried it would
ultimately be found to bo one of that class. He objected
to the inspection of prisons, which had caused a difference
of opinion between the county justices and the Secretary
of State, and he was apprehensive the same would be the
result of the inspection under this bill.
Mr. MUNTZ asked the Secretary of State to withdraw
this mutilated bill. The great objection to the inspector-
ship of the police in boroughs was still retained in the bill,
but he (Mr. Mentz) was at a loss to understand why it was
retained, and why the Secretary of State wished to inter-
fere in this manner with the boroughs.
Mr. WARNER supported the bill, reserving to himself
the right of considering its details in committee.
Mr. BARROW objected to the compulsory provisions of
the bill, and said he should vote against its second read-
ing. This was an attempt to introduce the thin end of the
wedge, and, if permitted, other bills would follow in sub-
sequent sessions, giving the Secretary of State full powers
over the management o the police throughout the country.
He did not consider the present Police Act had had the
effect of diminishing crime as some hon. members sup-
posed.
Mr. COBBETT objected to the bill. In Sussex consta-
bulary had been established fur 12 years in the eastern di-
vision, but rot in the west, and he believed if the people of
the eastern division were polled they would vote against
them, because of the inefficiency of the police iu the detec-
tion of crime.

Mr. KNIGHT opposed the bill. He said he had seen the
effects of a Government police on the Continent, and was
convinced that no plague, pestilence, or famine could bo a
worse curse to a country than that.
Mr. CAYLEY approved of the bill, and road a letter
from a gentleman at Wensleydale to the same effect. He
was opposed to centralisation, and knew that, under simi-
lar pretences, great expenditure was often incurred.arminst
the wish of the people, but he thought the principle of this
bill good, and he should vote for it.
Mr. HADFIELD.hoped the house would adjourn the
debate. He was strongly opposed to bringing all the busi-
ness of the provinces to London, and should resist these at-
tempts at centralisation to the utmost of his ability.
Sir G. GREY regretted that' he could not accede to the
suggestions that he should withdraw the bill. He pro-
posed to take the second reading then, and as all the alte-
rations proposed could he made most appropriately in
committee, he would make the.amendments, and let the
bill as altered be circulated through the country. If it
were not then approved of there would be an opportunity
of n>jecting it on the third reading, but he pledged himself
that the alterations he should make would not affect the
principle of the bill.

The house then divided, and the numbers were as fol
[ows

For the second reading 259
For the amendment
Majority --153
The bill was then read a second time, and will be com-
mitted, pro forma, next Friday.
LOCAL DUES ON SHIPPING.
On the motion for brining up the report on supply,
Mr. M. GIBSON called the attention of the house to an
arrangement which he understood had been made at an
early part of the evening between the Government and the
hon, and learned member for Stamford (Sir F2Thesiger).
He was informed that the report of the Royal Commis-
sioners on local dues on shipping was to be superseded, And
that the matter was to be disposed of as though no such in-
quiry had taken place. He was also informed that the
whole subject was to pass off without discussion.
Lord PALMERsToNT said that what passed in the early
part of the evening was this. He stated to the lion, and
learned gentleman the member for Stamford that in com-
paring the motion of his right lion, friend the Viee-Presi-
dent of the Board of Tr ,:e with the amendment of the hon.
and learned gentleman, he found the difference between
them involved so few things that were essential, that he
should have no difficulty in agreeing with the amendment,
namely, that a committee should be appointed to inquire
into the matters which the commissioners were appointed
to examine into, and that to the committee so appointed.
should be referred the report of the commission. .n sto any
discussion; the house must judge. for itself when the sub-
ject was brought forward. (Laughter.)
Mr. DISRAELI said that as the question was one which
would probably excite ;Teat interest, perhaps the house
would allow him to give his version of the course he under-
stood it was the intention of the Government to pursue.
After the debate on the ministerial proposition to take
away the property of the corporations the noble lord at
the head of the Government proposed that a committee of
inquiry should be nominated. Tao tone he seemed to
take led him (Mr. Disraeli) to conclude that it was the
intention of the Government to attempt to get that indi-
rectly which they failed to obtain directly. When the
proposition of the Vice-President of the Board of Trade
was first made, it appeared of such an alarming and dan-
gerous character that he opposed it, for he imagine:l that
it was his intention to induce the house partially at all
events to agree with the report of the commissioners.
(Hear, hear.) Ho thought be did not misreprecont the
object of the right honourable gentleman when he said
that his intention was to propose to the house a committee
who should decide that the recommendations of the royal
commissioners should be'carried out. To that proposition
of the Ministry he (Mr. Disraeli) entertained very strong
objections. Upon this the houceirable and learned mem-
ber for Stamford moved an amendment, a moderate and
wise amendment, and one which at the same time main-
tained the principles sad policy which had been asserted
and defended on the Opposition side of the house. They
(the Opposition)• did.;not shrink from inquiry, and they,
therefore, assented to the appointment of a committee to
inquire into the general question, repudiating the opinion
that the committee were to be at all guided by the opinions
of the commissioners, which opinions they believed were
founded on principles injurious to the country and inde-
fensible; on the principles upon which property was based.
All the honourable and learned member for Stamford
wanted was a committee on passing dues and tolls. He
understood that in the early part of the evening Govern
meat withdrew their motion, agreeing with the honour
able and learned member for Stamford that the subject
should be investigated by a committee of the house, not
in any way sanctioning the recommendations of the com-
missioners

A lengthened discugion on the subject of barrack secom.
modation took place, in which Mr. Monsell, Colonel Lind
say, Colonel Buck, and other hon. members took part. It
led, however, to no practical result.
Mr. BARING-asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether it was the intention of the Government, in the
Appropriation Act, to provide that what was voted for one
department should not be applied to another— that which
was voted for the army, for instance, should not be ap.
plied to the Ordnance. Unless some provision of this sort
was made the house would really have no control over the
sums voted.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
were no heads in the Ordnance department which directly
reproduced the Ordnance estimates. It would no doubt be
desirable to have different heads, and to make them the
subjects of specific propositions.
The report of the cammittee of supply was then agreed
to.

TRIAL OF OFFENCES BILL.
The house went into committee, on this bill.
Clauses 1 to 30 were, with a few verbal amendments,
agreed to.
The house then resumed.

JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES.
Mr. LOWE said he had not introduced anything into
the bill which was foreign to its object, but to avoid dis-
cussion he would take the Easter recess to consider the
best means of amending it. •He therefore moved that the
order be discharged, with the object of reconsidering its
provisions.

- The order was then discharged.
Certain returns, on the motion of Mr. RICH, were then
ordered, and the house adjourned at a quarter past two
o'clock.

[ADVERTISEMENT.' -- &GMT AND !FRAMING. SPECTACLES,
POWERFUL TELESCOPES, OPERA, RACE AND PERSPECTIVE GLASSES.
—Messrs, S, and B. Solemons, opticians, 39, Albemarle-
street, Piccadilly. Observe opposite the York Hotel.
By her Majesty's Royal Letters Patent for valuable and
extraordinary improvements in the most powerful and
brilliant Telescopes, Camp, Racecourse, Opera, and Per.
speetiie Glasses, to know the distances of objects viewed
through them—of great importance to the army, navy,
and others. These telescopes possess such extraordinary
powers that some three and a-half inches, with an extra eye.
piece, will show distinctly Jupiter's moons, Saturn's ring,
and the double stars ; with the same teieseope can be
seen a person's countenance three miles and a half distant,
and an object from 16 to 20 miles. They are of larger and all
sizes, with increasing powers accordingly ; while their vary.
ing from 4 to 6 inches enable us to discover more than the
above-, arid the Georgian 'with his 6 satellites, &e.—The Royal
'Exhibition, 1851.—Valuable, newly-invented, very small,
Pewerf‘i waistcoat-pocket glass,the size of a walnut, by which
a pereoll can be Seen and known 1j miles distaut ; they answer
every pirpose ou the race-course, and at the opera houses,
countrysccnery, and ships are clearly seen at 8 to 10 miles.
They an invaluable for shooting, deer-stalking, yachting, to
sportsmtn, gentlemen, gamekeepers, and tourists. Opera,
race-et:nese, camp, and perspective glasses, with wonderful
power. newly-constructed Spectacle Louses of the great.
est transparent power. The valuable advantage derived
from this invention is, that .vision becoming impaired is
preservedeod strengthened, and very aged persons are
enabled to'eseploy their sight at the most minute occii-
patiou- can see 'eh these lenses of a much less magnify.
ing power—and th . e not require the frequent changes
to the dangerous e 4of further powerful assistance.
Deafness— 4\
Now. Disceveik--The Organic Vibrator, an ex-
Nll
traordinary powerful, smalleeowly-invented instrument for
deafness, entirely different fro it
asother's, to Surpass any-
thing of the kied that has bee ri.X. ro"--eably ever ran be, 1
produced., Being of the same colour the skin, is not per.
ceptible ; i: enables deaf persens to heaiNstinetly at church
and at public assemblies ; the unpleasant rensation of singing '
noises iu the ears is entirely removed; an&jt affords all the
assistance that -:.possibly could be desired.--e 9, ,imeraaiq . i
street, i!c.;cli'dy. Obrlorve—opperlo the Yokiletpl.
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Losi „4

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