The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-03 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULT 2.

In consequence of a motion for a call of the House,
which, however, was not enforced, the gallery was not
opened till half after five o'clock.

NATIONAL DEBT.

When we entered the gallery, we found
Mr. BUCKINGHAM addressing the House. His object
was to move for a Select Committee to consider the prac-
ticability of reducing the national debt by means of annui-
ties. He was for preserving the national faith, as long as
it could he done, but not at a ruinous expense to the present
generation. He would propose a national fund to be
established for a hundred years, for the sake of simplicity,
and to bear a uniform interest for that period, so as to
make the burden lighter throughout that period, without
any reference to fluctuation in the price of the various de-
scriptions of stock. He had thus very briefly stated his
case, and if his views were acceded to, he thouebt it would
confer great benefit upon the community. The debt as it
stood was caused for the preservation of every man who
had property to protect ; and they ought to pay, either
personally or in their descendants, for the preservation of
that property. The system of all taxation should be plain
and simple, in order to secure the assent of the people to
it. Labour was the great producer of wealth, and should
he adequately protected. This was one of his great objects,
and he hoped it would not be frustrated in that reformed
House of Commons. The system of taxation in England was
rs•entially bad, and much more was taken from the people
than was necessary for the purpose of the state. No man
could doubt but that the taxes could be collected at a
much cheaper rate than at present, and by a saving in
the collection, the public would find a considerable relief.
It would not he very difficult so to frame a stock as
that it should bear an interest, suppose of 3i per cent.,
far a certain period, with an opti,m to the national cre-
ditors to accept it, for a limited period (say thirty years),
and then be able to hand it down to their children, or
their grandchildren. Our national debt was incurred
principally by a nomination Parliament, who felt no sym-
pathy with the people ; but, as it had been incurred with
the view of protecting the property of every one, who was
possessed of it, we were bound, as a matter of national
faith and honour, to see that it was repaid. In England
taxation bore no proportion whatever to property. As
property increased in value taxation diminished, and vice
versa. Taxes were also levied upon all the commodities
of life ; but this, he would be able to show, proceeded
upon principles that were erroneous, for it was clear that
all taxes imposed upon articles of consumption had the
effect of, at the same time, diminishing the employment
of both labour and capital. With respect to a portion of
the taxation of the coubtry Le was convinced it hat; a
most immoral tendency. The taxes on legal proceedings
in our courts of justice had the effect of rendering the
laws unequal as between the rich and the poor man, and
not unfrequently operated as a denial of justice to the latter.
By the tax on newspapers the flee communication and re-
ception of knowledge was obstructed, and the duties on
paper had a similar effect. Even distress was taxed ; for
in what other light could the auction duty be considered
but as a tax upon distress ? Taxes were also imposed
upon prudence and inventions. Than these no worse
description of taxes could exist ; for, in the one case, a
man was compelled to pay for insuring his property against
injury from fire or the dangers of the sea, and in the other
a serious impediment was thrown in the wa) of the pro-
gress of our arts, sciences, and manufactures. For his
part he meant to propose the imposition of an income tax.
He bad been advised by some of his friends not to expose
the object which be had in view, nor to say a word about
this species of rx, if he wished any good to result front
his motion ; but was it not, he would ask, a mere delu-
sion to talk about a property t tx, and not mean an in
come tax ? He submitted that it was. There were two
species of incomes that ought to be taxed, viz., the perma-
nent or those derived from houses, lands, and other
substantive property, and the precarious, or those which a
man obtained by his own exertions or pursuits. The former
being certain ought undoubtedly to bear a higher rate of
taxation that, the latter, which was uncertain and fluctua-
ting. But both should be liable to a tax ; and he held it
to be a maxim that every one having an income exceeding
1001. a year, no matter how attained, should contribute
directly to the burdens of the State. This taxation should,
however, progress gradually, and at long intervals between
each rest ; but 801 the amount would increase propor-
tionately to the amount of the income on which it was
charged. In this happy country we had abundant means
fur all ; and if the rich would exercise a little more virtue
and self-denial in relieving the burdens of the poor, the
difficulties under which the country at present laboured
woad soon be removed. The chief burden under which the
people laboured was the debt, and whenever the Govern-
ment were called on to abolish taxation they had their
answer ready, and said, " Oh, but if we do so what
will become of the debt ?" The Noble Lord had taken
off the duties on tiles and soap in the hope of satisfying
the public, but had the remission produced the desired of •
feet? It would be idle for the Noble Lord to expect that
the people would be satisfied with a diminution in this or
that tax ; and, therefore, as the debt of the country was
made the ground for levying taxes, this was the fitting
time to appoint a Select Committee with a view of ascer-
taining, it possible, whether simplicity in our system of
taxation would not be better than mystery, and economy
than extr ivagance. The Hon. Gentleman then moved
"For a Select Committee to consider the practicability of
progressively reducing the national debt, by its conversion into
terminable annuities, at gradually diminishing rates of interest,
so as to lessen its burden every year ; and to determine the best
mode of assessing the property and income of the kingdom to
meet the expense of such conversion; and to form, at the same
time, a surplus ro t nue fund, which shall enable the Parlia-
ment progressively to repeal those imposts which bear most
heavily on the agricultural, manufacturing, and shipping in.
terests of the coun .ry."

The question 'laving been put,
Lind ALTHORP said, in the proposition which the
Hon. Gentleman had just made he had shown the reason
why his motion should not be granted, and he (Lord
Althorp) maintained that the subject of a property tax
could b.- discussed not only much better but with much
greater convenience in that House than in a Select Corn.
mittee. There were, however, several parts of the HOD.
Gentleman's proposition with which he agreed. He
certainly desired to effect the reduction of the national
debt by its conversion into long annuities, anti it prow
of this he might ref,r to a measure having th
object in view which he had introduced in the
course of the present session. But looking at the enormous
amount of the debt, and the variety of schemes suggest. d
from time to time fur its liquidation, without an)
practical good resulting from them, lie feared that even
the plan of the Hon. Gentleman would be found itiefi
fectual. At present there was a perpetual annuity of
twenty-eight millions chargeable on the nation, and the
best way to enable the country to bear this tearful burden
was, in his opinion, to increase its wealth by every possi-
ble means. He must object to making any increase in the
taxation of the country merely for the vain prject of at-
tempting to get rid of the national debt. By the proposition
of the Hon. Gentleman, that of converting the debt into
annuities, and increasing the interest to 51., and diminish-
ing it one shilling a year, the country would be burdened
with fresh taxation to the amount of eighteen millions
annually for at least the next thirty years.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM said that the Noble Lord had
m staken what be had said. The increase he proposed
would not exceed five millions a year.
Lord ALTHORP should object to even an increase of
five millions, for, however di sirable the conversion of the
debt into terminable annuities might be, he did nut think
that object would justify the Government in incr, awing
the burdens of the country; neither could be see bow
forty millions of taxes could be raised in the war
pointed out by the Honourable Gentleman ; for. he agreed
with the Hon. Member for Oldham taut the =poet icod
n

a graduated property Cal would only be an approach
to a state of contheation. It was, however, a debateable
point whether a portion of the taxes now paid ought not
to be collected on the principles of a property tax ; but at
present he must say that he could not consent to any-
thing so imprudent as that of hazarding a large portion of
the revenue of the country upon a system of direct taxa-
tion. This being hie opinion, he could not of course assent
to the appointment of a Committee ; but he supposed t •
lion. Gentleman was not determined to take the sense r f
l'the House upon his motion, but only used it as a means
of sending forth his sentiments on the subject to the country.
Mr. COBBETT fully agreed that the child in the cradle
was not bound to pay the debts of his father by whom be
had been left nothing for the purpose; and by a parity of
reasoning he denied that the industrious classes of this
country were bound to pay a debt contracted, not for their
benefit, hut by former usurping Parliaments. If a min
possessed a thousand acres of land be ought to ma thou-
sand times the taxes paid by the man who owned a single
acre. That was a principle which he would support, but
be would not support the principle of a graduated property
tax. A graduated tax was a levelling tax, and, if once in
operation, in the course of forty or fifty years would bring
all men to a level. He was sure that, if a principle of
graduated taxation were acted upon in this country, fifty
years hence a good house would never be built and a tree
would never be planted in the soil. He would support the
motion for inquiry because he knew it would show that
the poor man was taxed twenty, and thirty, and fortyfold
higher than the rich.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY contended that the demand fur
inquiry into the system of our taxation was pressing with
a force which could not be resisted. It was said that
the advocates of reform wished to apply a sponge to the
national debt. He repudiated that charge ; and, on the
contrary, he said that the public creditor was entitled to
the satisfaction of his claim as long as there was any tan-
gible property in the country wherewith to pay him. And
he contended, moreover, that that was the general deter-
mination of the country, and that the property of the
public creditor was therefore better secured than any other
species of property whatever. This money bad been bor-
rowed of its owners to maintain the Church and Consti-
ttrion—he would not say how wisely—and the country
determined to support those institutions, and not to mind
money. W-11, they had been preserved, and the debt
was secured upon the land and produce of the country ;
and all he bad to say was that, if the borrowers did not
like to pay the mortgagees, all they bad to do was to walk
out and let them take possession.—(A laugh.) The
sponge, then, was not the doctrine nor the interest of the
Radicals. He believed, indeed, that the Tories and the
landed proprietors would not dislike to hear the Radicals
talk of the sponge, nor even to see them apply it to the
fundholder. It was upon them that the charge must be
made to lie and thi y would bzi very glad to get rid of it.—
(Laughter.) He believed they would be like the laoled
proprietors in Ireland and England, who liked to see the
lowest of the populace do what they were afraid to do
themselves, but of which they knew very well that they
should reap the benefit.—(Hear.) He wts glad di, Hon.
Alrother had brought forward his motion, and it must
afford him gratification to see how it had beer. received by
the House.

Mr. HUME thought the motion rather pr.mature under
all the citcumstances of the country. He denied that the
debt was to he considered what the Hon. Member for
Colc,ester represented it, a were annuity. It wag a per-
petual charge, and the fault of the system was that it was
levied upon the productive industry, instead of upon the
actual property, of the country. It could no longer be
endured that taxation should be allowed to press as it did
upon the poor man who earned his two or three shillings
a day. Though the present motion might be fruitless in
every thing else, yet such discussions elicited principles
which should be the guides of public men, and into which
it was desirable that those who might, arid he believed
would, have the direction of the affairs of the country
hereafter should be initiated.

Colonel EVANS said it had been laid down by Adam
Smith that doge who possessed the most property were
better able, and therefore were bound, to bear a larger
proportion of the burdens of the country than those who
had the least. This was the principle of a graduated pro-
perty tax. But, if a tax gradually rising upon the larger
►nas+es of property would be a measure of spuliatign, he
should like to know what was the character of that spoli-
ation which made the increase of the tax proceed inversely
with the amount of property ! He could assure the Noble
Lord that some measure must be adopted to relieve the
industrious classes from the proportion which now fell
upon them.

Mr. J. MAXWELL was favourable to the principle of
the motion, but thought the late period of the present
session rendered it preferable that the subject should be
allowed to stand over.

A hintana, whose name we could not learn, should
strongly recommend a property •ax if he could he con-
vinced that it would afford relief to the productive industry
of the country. But he thought they were first bound
to ascertain whether the landed interest dit. not bear its
fair proportion of the charge of the country.
Major BEAUCLERK would fearlessly assert that no
good could be done, and no relief afforded, until Ministers
determined upon reducing the direct taxation. He trusted
that the Hon. Member for Middlesex would bring forward
his motion for the repeal of the house duty, and that the
House would enforce it upon the Government.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
Ayes .

Noes 57
Majority against the Motion -19
IRISH TITHES.

On our return to the gallery, we found
Mr. BARRON on his legs, proposing his resolutions re-
specting tithes in Ireland. The tithe system bad been
pronounced in a report of a Committee of that House, to
have been the cause for a long series of years of confusion
and bloodshed. Would the House continue a system which
had been so characterised? Another Committee had declared
that such a change alone could be satisfactory as would
involve the utter extinction of tithes in Ireland, and the
substitution of such a tax on the land as might be neces-
sary for the support of the Protestant clergy. He was
convinced that the only mode of allaying the great excite-
ment and irritation which existed in Ireland, would be to
put an end to tithes entirely. The proposition which his
second resolution involved, respecting a tax on laud
for the support of the Protestant Establishment in
Ireland, was countenanced by the Protestant clergy
of that country ; in proof of which he referred to
the petitions which had been presented from the
clergy of the dioceses of Ossory, Dublin, and Ferns.
This showed he was not proposing any thing
likely to be offensive to the Protestant clergy in Ireland.
His principal object was, that the Protestants and Catholics
in Ireland might henceforward live in good fellowship
and neighbourhood, as Christians ought to live, and not in
rancorous enmity, which was at present but too frequently
the case. This, however, could not be accomplished by
half and half measures. It could not be accomplished by
proposing one thing to-day, and giving it up so-morrow.
Such weakness would only expose them to contempt and
desertion.—(Hear, bear.) With respect to the principle
of his plan, it had always appeared to hint that the exist-
ing incumbents ought to continue to receive the amount of
their present incomes. This appeared to him to be due,
then, on every principle both of public policy and of pri-
vate feeling. He was by no means, however, prepared to
..ay that such property ought to be at all times irrevoca.
tile, or that it ought to go to the sue- essors of the present
incumbents. It was a fact which he wished to press par-
ncularly on the attention of Hon. Members, that there
were six hundred arid forty-nine parishes in Ireland with.
out a resident minister ; and in which, therefore, the rites
the Protestant religion could not be performed. One-
third of the parishes of Ireland were without church and
without rector ; and yet all payments were still ex toted.
In his own parish writs for tithes had been served,
even within the last ten days, the expense on each
being 31. 10s., and the clergym in who authorized this
proceeding was the Rev. Mr. Alcock, the very same gen-
tletnan who, twelve months ago, wrote the letter to Mr.
Stanley which they bad all read in the report of the
Tithe Committee. This clergyman bad nut s pas
i•hioner, nor a church, nor a curate—nay, be h.lieyee
he knew not a man in the whole place. He maintained
then, to pay tithes to him—for what had he done tot
the parish ?—was contrary to common i•elise—(Hear;—
itid to the immutable principles of justice. In &Aland,
religion cost one shilling and nine-pence per bead; its
Irelanel, 11. 13s. 41. to every Protettsot.—(Hear.)
In conclusion, he should assert, that the House, by egret-
rig to his resolutions, would do great good, inasmuch es
they would show a sympathy with the people o: Ir-elitist;
and, after 300 years of misrule, take a positive step. to-
wards reconciling them to the Government sod irstu.
Lions of this country. The Hun. Member concluded u
by
" Trhatthethperatittehisyt
moving—.
I should ee totally extin-
sEtesmtabinlisirmeleanatd, has
and been
ut-h teb efrru
source of misery and crime, um
guished.
" That a land tax ought to be substituted for the sup_
opinons might he in ies;vt )tt-o
pur-
posesitfuport o
I utility as the Legislature may deem neces
of genera
Zr LITTLETON did not consider it necessary to y
cause, whatever hip ow
much in reply to the speech of the Hon. Getitieui;m•
tithes, all must admit the present was a most inevilvenitat

WWII for the discussion o ftbe subject. He would ask any
one, too, whether the question had not been sufficiently
before that House—to say nothing of the incidental die-
cussion respecting it on the occasion of the Coercion Bill
—orthe Cburch Bill : and the other day, when his Noble
Friend brought in his measure as to the tithes of 1831,
1832, and 1833, in the principle of which the Hon.
Gentleman had expreesA his concurrence. He should
be less surprised at the present motion, if be imagine i the
Hon. Gentleman himself thought any practical good could
result from it ; or that, by the present discussion, tithes
could be placed on a new basis. He would not then give
any posit ve opinion of Isis own; hut be did not doubt
that a measure might be devised, in order to effete
permanently the tranquillity of Ireland ; but surely
they would next year Le in a better position for this
than now. Another reason for delay was, that in cow-
quence of the measure of his Noble Friend regarding the
tithes of 1831, 1832, and 1833, they would be able to go
on in a state of tranquillity till May next, there being no
payment due till then. Ha would be the last man to
maintain a church in parishes where there was no congre-
gatien—(Cheers)—for by so doing they, in his opinion,
only maintained ground where the enemy could safely enter
and attack the establishment itse'f.—(Cheers.) With
respect to tithes, he hoped the landlords of Ireland would
he willing to make some sacrifice for the public advantaue.
It was only with their aid that the British Parliament
could make any good and satisfactory arrangement effective,
and witt.ont their ail any attempt of the kind =Pt be
expected to be attended with confusion and bloodshed,
although the attempt might be to establish a system of the
most advantageous kind in Ireland. Whatever form the
question of tithes might assume, and if must assume some
form, they individually would have no right to possess
themselves of that which belonged to the church—( Hear,
bear)—nr, if not to the church, belonged to the state.—
(Cheers.) The right to that property was not theirs—
(He r, bear)—and the laws which protected that property,
whatever form those laws might assume, must be asserted
and maintained. He had no hesitation in moving the
previous question.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR observed, that they were told that
the law must be enforced with respect to tithes as with
respect to other property. There was one difference, how-
ever, which the Right Hon. Gentleman did not seem to
have adverted to. It was this—that the law created the
property in tithes, while it only protected property of
anotherdescription.—(Hear.) He blamed the conduct
of the Ministry with respect to the question. It could not
be denied that tithes bad been a great source of discontent
in Ireland, and the people would not be satisfied till the
Ministry did something really to put an end to them.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said. the only principle
of any value in this Bill, when first introduced, Ilan been
struck out by the Ministry themselves, whose Bill it was,
and who had thus rendered it good for nothing. This
Bill of theirs would create more disturbances in Ireland
than any other measure had previously done.
Mr. STANLEY could not object to the principle of
the first resolution, because he believed it was copied from
the report of the Tithe Committee, to which he himself
had agreed ; neither could he deny that tithes had been
the fruitful parent of misery and in Ireland ; but
the question now was, whether the evils which had arisen
from this source, were not now about to be got rid of by
the measure which the Government bad introduced. Be-
fore entering on that question, he must say a word or two
on the often misrepresented expression of extinction of
tithes. Having done so now, he should consider it as done
once for all, and never would enter on the question again.
He b.— ged the attention of the House to the occasion on
which that expression was used, and the circumstances
attending the use of it. The Hon. Member for Wicklow,
who had introduced the debate on tbat occasion, had said
that " the system of tithes was unjust in principle, and
tyrannical in operation ; and that it made a difference be-
tween the rich and the poor, because the rich man, by
turning his arable land into pasture, might evade the tax,
which it was impossible for the poor man to do, who was
compelled to live on the produce of his pota'oe ground."
Why, it should be recollected in the first place, that that
was the system created by the Irish Parliament, so often
the subj et of the praise of the Hon. Member for the city
of Waterford—for it was they that made agistment the
exception to liability to tithes, and thus created the invi-
dious distinction between the poor and the rich.
Mr. BARRON had not eulogised this system ; he had
only given it as an instance of the interference of the State
with tithe property.
Mr. STANLEY—That might be so, but still it was
true that this sort of interference, so favourable to the
rich, and unjust to the poor, was the work of the Irish
Parliament.—(Hear.) In answer to the observations
thus made on the evils of the system of tithes, and in
answer to a question from Mr. Croker, he (Mr. Stanley)
Lad raid that the object the Government had in view,
was, " the extinction of the present system of tithes."—
(Hear, hear.) The report of the Committee, to,, said
that tithes were to be exchanged for a commutation on
land, or for a charge on land. It was quite impossible
that the public should have been misled by such an ex-
pression. uttered under such circumstances. —( Hear. )
He admitted that the present system of tithes had been
the parent of much misery in Ireland, but in what man-
ner ? It was in their mode of assessment—in the various
modes in which they were collected, and in all the
practical details connected with their collection —and
all of these objections would be done away by their
conversion into what was virtually and really a land tax.
The difference between the present system and any other
must be in the persons by whom the tithes were col
lected, or the persons by whom they were paid. He
much suspected that the -objections to the Ministerial
measure pro eeded front those by whom the tithes
must be paid. The burden would now be taken from
the shoulders of the poor and put upon those of the
rich—upon those who in the Irish Parliament had had
sufficient influence to get passed such a system as that
which he had read and described in the sentence taken
from the speech of the Hon. Member, whose sentiments I
he had quoted. All would now pay according to the
value of the land, of which they were the occupiers. All
the small charges that were so oppressive in their opera-
ration wou'd be got rid of—the tithes themselves would
no longer be a direct tax upon industry—they would be
paid, not by the tenant, but by the landlord. Anti if the
tenant suffered from a heavier burden than at present, he
would know to whom to impute the evil; and that to
the landlord, and not to the clergyman, be must look for
relief.—(An Hon. Member—" Tbat is unjust towards
the landlords.") Unjust towards the landlords ! Would
the Hon. Member tell the House what be meant by the
expression, whether he meant by relief from tithes to get
a pecuniary benefit to the landlords ?—(No, no.) He
believed that they might think—intend—with that it
should be so—(No, no)—but were there any who would
get up in that House and declare that such were their
sentiments ?—(Another interruption here took place.)
The Hon. Member said the land was his—(Hear, hear)
--it wareo—Le had bought it and paid for it, but be
bought it subject to tithes--(Hear, hear)—he paid a less
price for it, because it was subject to tithes—be let it sub-
ject to tithes; and if the tithes were now removed, he
would he able to let or sell it for a higher price than
before. But if the clergy were to be deprived of the
tithes, he was not the person who was to reap the advan-
tage of their loss—he was not to be permitted to take
to the full that of which the clergy had been de-
prived, to take it for his own benefit from the suffer-
ipg tenant, and then complain of the exactions of the
clergy. In order to carry the Tithe Composition
Bill fairly tuts effect, no pains bad been spared, and
the resolution of to-night had been met at all
points by the alteration of the plan originally proposed
by Ministers. Into the latter part of the Hon. Mover's
argument he would not enter ; but he would say, that no
wan ought to attempt to divert to public purposes any
portion of the property of the church, until it had been
seen tbat the purposes of that church bad been amply
accomplished. The question of surplus still remained
open. He bad his own opinions on the subject, but he
should not now press them, under the persuasion that it
was the wish of the House that that topic should be left
to future deliberation. He concurred with his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Littleton) who had moved the previous ques.
Lion, under the conviction that the proposed resolution
would give rise to fruitless and, therefore, mischievous
Discussion.
Mr. O'CONNELL perceived in the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, a continu•
ation of that unrelenting disposition, which refused to
give anything to Ireland. The affairs of that unhappy
country were now in other hands, and he earnestly hoped
that Ministers would not allow the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to interfere with them.—(Clieers and laughter.)
They ought to be warned by the failure of his previous
Bill, and the mismanagement of which he had been guilty
ought to show them that he was no longer fit to he their
guide.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland was not a colony ; it was
an integral part of the British empire; and it was quite
enough for the Eight Hon. Gentleman to conduct his
own department, and regulate 800,000 negroes, without
attempting longer to control the people of Ireland.—
(Cheers.) It was very true that the Right Mon. Gentle-
man bad not used the terms " extinction of tittles" in the
ordinary sense—
Mr. STANLEY said that his expression bad been
" the extinction of the tithe system."
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Right Hon. G. etleinan
alight have it which way be pleased, but with whatever

ingenuity it was urged, the people neither of England nor
Ireland would be deceived by his special pleading. The
real question was—ought one sect of Christians to he
compelled to pay the clergy of another sect?—(Hear.
hear.) The Roman Catholics would never consent to
support the present enormous church establishment in
Ireland; they ought not to be compelled to support it;
the universal cry was against it, and it was re-echoed by
the Protestant Dis•enters of England, who had the same
right to be freed from the payment of tithes. Did Minis-
ters suppose that the way to make Roman Catholics
become Protestants was to shower upon them latitats and
writs from the Exchequer? If they wished to procure
converts, let them rather put forward the Right lion.
Gentleman ; the sweetness of his disposition, and the
kindness and urbanity of his manners towards the Irish
and Ireland, would be sure to accomplish the object.—
(Cheers and laughter.) All would speedily join that
church, to which he was so devotedly attached that he
was resolved to make others pay for it.—(Cheers.) Hr
had disturbed the condition of Ireland in order that be
might bring forward the Coercion Big; hut Ministers
would find, perhaps too soon, in the words of the pro-
verb, that it was the last feather that broke the camel's
back. He trusted, ere long, that Ireland would get rid of
the incubus of a church in which she did not believe.

Mr. LITTLETON explained that Ministers were n:.e
to be c usidered pledged to any measure next year.
Mr. LEFROY said, that as nineteen-twentieths of the
property of Ireland belonged to Protestants, it was just
that they should pay for the maintenance of their own re-
ligion, and the tithe must ultimately fall on the land.
Besides, whatever might be the fact in Ireland, the Pro-
testant church was the church of the vast majority of the
inhabi,ants of the empire.
Mr. O'CONNELL and Mr. LEra.ov successively
explained.
Lord ALTHORP complained of the most unprovoked
and unfair attack made by the Hon. Member for Dublin
(Mr. O'Connell) upon hie Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Stanley). It seemed as if the Hon. Member had been
so frequently in contest with his Right Honourable
Friend, that whether their notions were accordant or
discordant, a rencoutre con d not be avoided.—(Hear.)
The invective pronounced was certainly characterised
by great ability, but in other respects the individual
who bad pronounced it was hardly to be envied.—(Cheers.)
The avowed object of the Hon. Member for Dublin was,
that there should be no church establishment in Ireland;
but that had not been the feeling of Parliament, and Mi-
nisters had never expressed or indeed entertained such an
intention. True it was, they wished tc effect beneficial
reforms in the church, but those reforms would render it
more permanent and less burdensome.—(Cheers.) The
Government had been warned to avoid the advice, and
reject the assistance of his Right Hon. Friend the Secre-
tary for the Colonies. Tbat warning. he could assure
those from whom it came, he was resolved 'ltogether to
disregard. He should be happy at all times to receiv-,
with that high respect to which it was entitled, any ad-
vice that might come from his Right Hon. Friend, as
well as take the banefit of his assistance upon every possi-
b:e occasion.

Mr. SHEIL said, his Honourable and Learned Friend
o as perfectly warranted in describing as he had done the
measures of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, now Se-
cretary for the Colonies, and formerly Secretary for
Ireland. He would put it to the House if every one of
those measures had not proved a signal failure ? One of
the measures of theßt.Hon.Gentleman went to assign the
tithes to the Attorney-General. That, most certainly, had
not succeeded ; the money could not be raised from the
land ; and as to the present plan, the whole of the aristo-
cracy would be opposed to it. The plan was an appeal to
their pockets, in which they would meet with decided
resistance. The House was then called upon to legislate,
without being informed what were the designs or plans of
Government. It was not too late for the Government to
bring forward and to complete the Bank question, or to
incur an expense of 20,000,0001. for freedom in the West
Indies—was it too late to do justice to Ireland?
Mr. SHAW said there had been much misrepresenta-
tion respecting the state of the established church in Ire-
land. Thirty ye as ago, nearly one half of the benefices
in Ireland were without churches, and without the per-
formance of divine service. Since then that half had
been reduced to one seventh of its original amount; then
why not permit that seventh to go the same way as the
preceding six parts ? There were two ways, it was said,
of meeting the difficulty; one was, to take away the in-
cumbents, and not to have the service performed ; the
other was, to let the incumbents remain, which was that
which he tecommended, and to have the service per-
formed. To pay up the three years' tithes in the manner
which had been proposed, was establishing a dangerous
precedent, and permitting persons to enjoy impunity who
had u&nded against the law.
Mr. LAMBERT denied that the Roman Catholics had
reedit), paid their tithes; on the contrary, all the distur-
bances in Ireland for many years had been occasioned by
contests respecting tithes, and all the Insurrection Acts in
dieted upon that unhappy country were only consequences
of them. As to the mode resorted to for the settlement
of the tithe question, at present he could not but look
upon it as objectionable in the highest degree. The con-
duct of the police was most mischievous in Ireland, and
no comparison could be drawn between the police there
and the police of the metropolis. They were bodies that
differed as much as any two bodies could.
Colonel CONOLLY rose amid much confusion, and
loud cries of " Question !" He agreed with the Hon.
and Learned Member in the general principle, that where
there was no service done there should be no remunera-
tion ; but he should be glad to know what services the
Hon. and Learned Member had performed to entitle him
to receive from the people of Ireland 12,0001. a year.—
(Order, and cries of " Oh, oh!") He hoped that the
Hon. and Learned Member, in vindication of his own
principles, would he prepared to show what services he
bad done that money should be extorted in order to pay
him.—(Order, and cries of "Hear, and Oh I") He would
make no excuse for the expression—the money was ex-
torted. He had in his possession a card he had received
from the county Cork, by which it appeared that there
were committees, treasurers, secretaries, and clerks orga-
nised to extort this money.—(Much confusion, amid which
Mr. O'Connell rose once or twice to reply.)
Mr. ROE rose to order, and trusted the Right Hon.
Gentleman in the Chair would interfere, and not allow
the discussion to degenerate into mete personal attacks.
The SPEAKER—No one was more sensible than he
was to the impropriety of personal attacks being intro-
duced into the discussions of that House, but he was
afraid that it was rather too late in the night, after what
had already occurred, to complain of those attacks.
Colonel CONOLLY was proceeding to address the
House again, when
Mr. O'CONNELL had but one word to say in reply.
Nothing could be more untrue, than that extortion was
employed in collecting the money alluded to. He would,
in the strongest terms, consistent with the dignity of that
House, deny the charge. Nothing was ever asserted so
little liable to credit, as the statement of the Hon. Member.
Mr. WALKER was surprised, and saw with regret,
that any one should jest upon and treat lightly, as bad
been done that evening, the atrocious murder committed
by the yeomanry at Newtown Barry.—(" Question,"
and " Oh !")
Mr. BARRON replied. His plan was, to have the
working clergy of Ireland paid, and to take away the
sinecures enjoyed by those who had no cure of souls.
However, when he called to mind the result of the
division on the 147th clause the other evening-, he con-
sidered it useless to divide the House on his resolutions.

-- -
The resolutions (as we understood, for no question w,.8
put from the Chair) were then withdrawn.
Lord ALTHORP begged to state to the House, that,
as it was now so late, it would be quite impo.sible to
enter into any discussion on the bringing up of the report
of the Irish Church Reform Bill, which stood for that
night. He would therefore suggest that be might be
allowed to defer the report, and that it should be dis-
cussed in the morning sitting of Thursday next. The
ground of that suggestion was, that private business was
nearly at an end—that there were no more election
ballots—and that, consequently, there were five mornings
in the week now open for the little private business that
rt mained to be transacted. As much time as possible
should be allowed for public business.
NEW HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. HUME should quote the opinions of the Com
mittee of Inquiry upon the subject, to show that the pre-
sent House was unfit for the purposes it was intended for.
The beat accommodation, be contended, should be afforded
to enable them to support the fatigues of their arduous
duty. In the discharge of that duty, both be and other
Hun. Members had attended in that House sixteen hours
a day in an atmosphere anything but congenial to health.
Surely no one could be so unwise as to wish to continue
such a state of things if any change could be possibly
effected. Great difference of opinion prevailed as to the
best manner of effecting that change. It was no new
thing to wish for an alteration in that House—it bad been
desired many years ago, before the Members of the House
were increased by an accession of Irish Members, and
Government even then thought it necessary to direct the
attention of architects to the subject. Yet no change had
taken place, though it bad been desired for upwards of a
century. When he looked to what had taken place since
—to the increased number of Members—tu the great
pressure of business, and to the way in which it was

transacted—he thought that the Committee had a fair
claim upon the attention of the House to the plans
.they had to submit to it. There might be some ob-
Nctions as to the expense.--(He Jr. ) The estimates that
had on a former occasion been submitted to Mr. Speaker
Onslow, amounted to 53,0001. ; he trusted, therefore,
that when he should show that the present estimates were
about half that sum, that the question would not be
one that the most rigid economis•s would object to.—
(Laughter.) He did not see how they could object to it,
after they had seen such large grants voted for the repairs
of Windsor Palace, for the pulling down and building tip
of Buckingham Palace, upon which at least 600,000/. were
already expended. In the present House there was only
convenient room fir about 350 Members ; it wag conse-
quently impossihle that business could be properly trans-
acted when there were between five and six bundr.d Mem-
bers present. As an example of the inconvenience of the
House, he need only point out what had taken place that
evening at five o'clock. The pressure of going out and
coining in at that hour was unworthy of any assembly of
persons. He repeated, that the shoving out and shoving
in that then took place was disgraceful.—(Laughter.) It
was fortunate for the Committee that they had the plans
that were submitted when the question was before mooted
in 1794 —the plan of Sir J. Soane and others. In the
Committee very little difference existed as to the necessity
of building a new House, the only difficulty was as to the
site of it. The great question was, whether the new
House should be built in that vicinity, or in the neigh.
bourhood of St. James's. Convenience and economy
were principally to be studied, and he thought that,
as a removal of the House of Commons would in-
volve a removal of the House of Lords—(Hear, and a
laugh)—that the Committee had acted wisely in abantlnn-
ing the idea of a change of neighbourhood. Every archi-
tect that bad been consulted, excepting only one, was of
opinion that the present House could not be altered, so as
to make it y!eld the accommodation and convenience
sought for. It was recommended, and in this be con-
curred, that the 'new House should be built due east of
the present House, and the present House might serve as
a lobby, or other convenient appendage to the new House,
and be of great use in facilitating public business. It
would have one great advantage, that of saving time in
dividing, as the House might then be emptied by folding
doors, and counted in three minutes. It was part of the
plan, should the House accede to it, that it should be
carried into execution by a responsible Commission, con-
sisting of five or seven persons; for a Committee of that
House could never see it properly carried into effect. He
should propose that a sum not less than 35,0001. be placed
at the disposal of his Maj sty for the purpose of erecting
a new House of Commons. The Hon. Gentleman con •
eluded by moving two resolutions, purporting that the
ptesent House was inconvenient and unfit for the transac-
tion of public business, and that an humble Address be
presented to his Majesty to order a new House of Com-
mons to be built ; and that the House would place the sum
of 85,000/. in the hands of his Majesty for that purpose.
Colonel DAVIES rose to second the first part of the
resolution, that he might have an opportunity of opposing
the second part. He had seen so much to regret in the
House, that he was ashamed of its proceedings. Hon.
Members were in the habit of talking, snoring, and lying
about—(No, no)—in a most disgraceful manner, all of
which he thought was occasioned by the want of suffi-
cient accommodation in the House. He disagreed will
the Hon. Member for Middlesex as to building a new
House to the east of the present House. He approved of
another site for the House of Commons. He maintained
that the whole matter should be taken into consideration ;
and he contended that there was no site in the whole
metropolis more inconvenient than the present site for the
great majority of the Members—for all the Members, in-
deed, except the Members of the Government and the
lawyers. He thought that the business ought again to
be referred to a Select Committee. He supporaed the first
resolution, but should wish to move his own resolution as
an amendment on the second resolution of his Hon. Friend.

Mr. W. PETER suggested that the plan of Mr.
Hopper, which had been so approved of by Mr. Hanbury
Tracey, should be adopted, by which would be preserved
to the country those walls which he never entered with-
out experiencing associations of the highest nature con-
nected with the names of Sydney, Hampden, and Russell.
Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY also thought that
the House could be altered according to the plan of his
Hon. Friend, Mr. Hanbury Tracey, supported as that
was by Mr. H ,pper's evidence. He, however, thought
the present House was sufficient for all purposes, and he,
therefore, objected even to the first resolution of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex. He had seen that Hon. Member
transact in it a great deal of business for several years, and
he was of opinion that the accommodation was sufficient.
Mr. WARBURTON said his Hon. Friend had denied
that the present House was unfavourable to health. If
the Hon. Gentleman attended not to whit oey s iid in
that House, but to the real Lowest opinions of Members—
(Great laughter)—he would find they all agreed that it
was most injurious. It was exceedingly inconvenient for
his own part, and he was not the least constant attendant
in that House—( Hear)—he was never in it above two
hours without undergoing bodily torture. He objected,
however, to changing the present site.
Lord ALTHORP thought it wrong to attribute to the
House of Commons that ill health which arose from late
hours and constant attendance.—( Hear ) No doubt
there was great inconvenience when any very large number
of Members attended, but as this was not frequently the
case, it was a question whether an increase in the size of
the Honse would not, under ordinary circumstances, lead
to an increase of noise.—(Hear.) He believed that the
business could be conducted with satisfaction to the country
in the present House of Commons ; but at the same time,
if it were the opinion of the majority of the House that
there should be an alteration, he had no objection. He
should vo'e against the motion.
Mr. MILDMAY rose amidst cries of " Question."
He contended that if there were to he a change, they
would find it necessary to erect a new House of Commons,
for the present building could not be properly altered.
Sir GEORGE PHILLIPS thought the present House
was not sufficiently large for the accommodation of the
Members.
Sir ROBERT PEEL would not consent to condemn
the present House of Commons on so imperfect a report.
The report of the Committee appointed to consider this
subject—he knew not who the Chairman was, and he
meant no disrespect to him—was most imperfect and dis-
creditable. They bad not recommended any plan to the
adoption of the House, but had referred then► to 22, with-
out coming to any recommendation.—(Hear, hear.) It
was most unjust to lay all the faults of the Members on
the building. It appeared that there was a great deal of
talking, incessant llu, much coughing, and very ungrace-
ful attitudes, but, of course, as they were the mister
spirits of the age, the House of Commons and ❑ot the
Members must hear the blame.—(Hear, hear.) It was
very questionable whether a large House of Commons
would, on the whole, be more advantageous than one of
the present size. The proposal to remove to St. James's
was most objectionable. What was to be done with the
House of Lords, with which they were in daily communi-
cation?—what with their Committee rooms ?—and what
an interruption to business would be the removal horn the
Speaker's House and other public offices.—(Hear, bear.)
He could not, therefore, agree to the motion.
Mr. HUME had reason to complain of the unjust
criticisms of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel). He
might be a very good critic of words, but his criticism to-
night was not worthy of any gentleman who pretended to
be a British senator.—(Hear, hear.) The observations
of the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) were, in his opinion,
quite childish, for in fact he bad not read the evidence
adduced before the Committee who were appointed to
consider this subject. Sneers and laughs could not pre-
vail against the common sense of any man who knew his
duty in that House.—(Hear.) The public bad necessa-
rily an interest in this subject, and in bringing it forward
he bad only discharged his duty. Criticisms without end
might be urged against him, but in all cases he would dis-
charge his duty.--(Cries of " Question," and "Divide.")
After a short conversation, the House divided, when
there appeared—

For the Motion
Against it
Majority against the motion 64
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a quarter-past two o'clock.

On Friday se'nnight an oyster-dealer named
liwaas, of Sittingbourne, attended Maidstone fair with
some oysters in a cart, together with a fine dog, lie
gave the deg a piece of meat for his dinner, and then at-
tetoptrd to take it ft om him agiin. The dog, no doubt
feeling that be had a " vested right" in the said meat after
it had been legally conveyed to him, growled a very earnest
protest, but being disregarded—he followed the example of
Lieutenant Randolph and took his president by tie nose.
Hobbs seized the dog and choked him off, just in time to
prevent the perfect separation of his unfortunate proboscis.
The bystanders advised him to kill the dog. " No," said
Hobbs with creditab:e humanity, "he is a good and faith-
ful dog, and would protect me and my property any where—
so I won't hurt a hair on him, be knowed the meat was
his'n." He then procured the assistance of a surgeon,
who gathered up the fragments in a workmanlike man-
ner, and poor Hobbs is now going about literally " with
his nose in a sliug.".--.Maidst"e Gazette.
Immo.