The Sun.
London, England, 1856-12-05 00:00:00

LONDON FRIDAY EVENING DECEMBER 1856.

METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS.

A deputation from the Metropolitan Board of Works
waited on the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday at
his office in Downing-street, on the subject of the bor-
rowing powers of the board. The deputation consisted
of Mr. Thwaites (the chairman of the board), Mr. Dal-
ton, Mr. Ware, Mr. Offor, Mr. Deputy Harrison, Mr.
Boyson, Mr. Savage, Mr. Crellin, and Mr. Major Lyon.
Mr. Woolrych, clerk to the board, was in attendance.
Sir Benjamin Hall, First Commissioner of her Majesty's
Board of Works, was present.
The deputation having been introduced by Mr.
Thwaites, that gentleman observed that this second visit

to the right hon. gentlentan he hoped would be excused

•
on account of the urgency of the subject concerning which
they wished to confer with him. The Metropolitan
Board was anxious to carry out all the works required of
them. The borrowing powers of the Board were limited
to the ordinary mode of raising money by way of mort-
gaging the rates. This necessarily contracted their
power of obtaining money from insurance offices,. who
had only the power of lending money on real or Govern-
ment security. But, even if the sum could be raised by
that means, it would be at a scale of interest prejudicial
to the ratepayers of London. By the 13th and 14:13 and
15th of Victoria, chap. 23, power was given to the Com-
missioners of Works to advaiice moneys for the purposes
of the Metropolitan Act, but that power was limited to
the advance of 90,0001. a quarter, or 330,000/. a year.
The Metropolitan Board, therefore, abandoned an 7 hope.
of 0(41114 tj ki4*. froukt#at Oicrier-TAn scapcsr.
taut question was liendThg, whetber'GoverEment ought
not to contribute to these large constructural works,
independently of the power of the Board to bor-
row money. It was the opinion of many that Go
vernment ought to, contribute largely towards the
improvetAents of the metropolis. Setting that ques-
tion, however, aside, the Board felt itself in a
position to ask the Government to render them assist-
ance in obtaining such sums as might be required, taking
the rates as a security. That security would be ample for
all sums needed for drainage and repayment of debts in-
curred by the late commission. The aggregate amount
would probably not be less than 4,000,000/. sterling. If
the Government were to borrow that money and lend it
to the Board, taking the rates as a security, and the
sum borrowed to be repaid in 50 years, it would enable
the Board to carry out all the necessary works of drain
age, pay off the liabilities of the late commission, and
make those metropolitan improvements which were
more imperatively called for. The Board was also pressed
by the public on the question of parks. London was
becoming fearfully large, and almost unmanageable. In
a few years hence its population would be so increased
that, unless means were taken to provide open spaces
where the inhabitants might obtain a mouthful of fresh
air, and the ;pans of recreation, it was impossible to say
what the effect might be on the metropolis itself. It was
the duty of the Board to direct their attention to these
points. The more speedily the ground in the vicinity of
London was covered with buildings the greater would
be the difficulty in obtaining open spaces for the inhabi-
tants. But in order that the board might be able to carry
out all these and other improvements it was necessary
it should have the assistance of the Government. It
would be a board indeed if it were prepared to tax London
at the rate of a million per annum. It was indispensable
that the board should obtain assistance, and that the
repayment of the money to be advanced should be
spread over as wide a epace as possible, so that the pre-
sent generation should not pay the whole oost of works
which would largely contribute to the health and
recreation of after generations. The Board, there-
fore, wished to know whether the Government were
prepared to sanction the borrowing of 4,000,00/.
of money, to be advanced at quarterly periods, but not
at a leas rate than 1,000,0001. per annum, the repayment
of which was to extend over a period of 50 years, on the
security of the rat, able value of the property of the ma-
trop&itan area, which was increasing from 300,0001. to
400,1001. a-year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Wk.at is the
present rateable value?
Mr. THWAITES-11,150,000/. _ I

The CHANCIOLLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I understand
you to any that your present power of assessment ex-
tends over an area the annual value of which amounts
to 11,150,0001?
Mr. TifalrES-Y ea, and a rate of 30. in the pouLd
would be buthoient to pay the interest and principal in 50

years.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER How much
would a penny rate rai•e?
Mr. THWAITES—About 50,0001.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Do you ask the
Government -to lend you the 4,000,000 Z., or only to
guarantee the loan ?
Mr. TuwairEs—We apprehend the Government would
borrow the money on the best terms, and then lend it to
us, taking our security. But, of course, power would
be given to the lenders to obtain repayment of the sums

as they fell dce. .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEItIIER—We do not lend
money generally under 5 per cent.; in some cases, in-

deed, the rate is reduced to 4 par cent.
Mr. TIIWAITES—We put in a stronger claim than the
parties to whom such advances are usually made. Waiv-
ing lor a moment the question of our having a claim on
the Government for a large contribution, we consider
that our undertaking is semi.national, and that we have
therefore a right to ask the Government to lend us their
credit in borrowing the money.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—What expenses
will you have to pay ?
Mr. THWAITES—Between 400,000/. and 500,000/. ;
but that wilt include in part some very old debts travel-
ling over several years—debts of the commissioners when
the congolidatien took place.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That is nearly
half a million, and then you say the main drainage
scheme will cost $,000,000/. Von think that sum will be
sufficient t ,

Mr. TRWAITES—Yea ; I hope so. We shall have
600,000/. to raise for the formation of new streets in
Southwark.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCREQUER—How do you
raise that ?

Mr. WoOLßyou (the clerk)—First by a loan and by
the sale of ground rents.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Do you think,
under the borrowing clauses of the act, you can raise
100,00/. ?
Mr. THwAlTEß—Probably we might, but I question
very touch whether we can do it.
Sir B. HAIL—You have in hand nearly 200,0001. to
meet the liabilities of the old commission.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There is no
doubt as to the property of London being an adeqttate
security, but one must look not merely to the property,
but also to the means of levying the tax upon that pro-
perty, because the validity of the security depends upon
the payment of the rate imposed upon it. Suppose this
case : that this great drainage scheme is executed and
the people are disappointed ; that a new board is created
five or ten years hence, and that that board should take
quite a different view of the policy of the matter, think.
ing that the money had been improperly expended, and
that the public had not had value for their money ; and
that then the public should object to pay any further
rate to meet the interest of the loan in what position
would the Government be then placed? Wou d you put
the Government in the position of having to raise the
money themselves ?
Mr. THwATTEs—If I and my successors were bound to
pay a certain sum, I apprehend we 'could be compelled
by mandamus to pay it.
The CHANCELLOR of the ExcREQUER—That, of course,
would be the only remedy. The Government would be
obliged to go to the Queen's Bench fora mandamus ;
but, seeing that such au argument might arise, it must
very much impair the validity of the security.
Mr. THWAITES—There would be no objection on the
part of the Board to introduce a clause to protect the
Government or any other party in every way for secur-
ing the repayment of the money advanced.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Government is
not in the habit of lending money to public bodies. I
am not saying a word against the public faith of your
body ; bat still we must look to all parties and to all
boards, and BO forth, but the
contingencies. Government, I say, is in the habit of
lending to county magistrates, for instance, to boards
sumsof
lent guardians,ate topavi ncomparativelyg
small-40,0001., 50,000/.
and it may in some instances, perhaps, be 100,0001. The
annual payment on these sums is small, and the objects
for which the money is lent are very useful, such as
constructing workhouses, lunatic asylums, &c. But we
come to the question of a loan of 4,000,0001. to be ad-
vanced to a municipal body; of course the danger of any
change of opinion as to the application of the money is
much greater, and therefore there is a greater necessity
for looking more narrowly into the validity of the
security.
Mr. THWAITES.—It appears to me that, having re-
ference to the importance of the works to he done, the
sum now asked for is not larger in proportion than the
sums advanced for the works you, Sir George, have just
tbe mentioned.ra ture a
nTdh largenesseextente f
proof p theery which we have to tax.spre simply arises from
tax of Bid. is the pound would not, I believe, excite
any such spirit on the part of the people as to lead to a
repudiation of the debt that had been contracted for
their behefiti
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That is a point
about which a change of opinion might arise. The ques-
es to the utility of the application
tion may be agitated
of the money.
Mr. THWAITES—That is not a question that wom'l .... -be
confined to the Board of Works, because the Govern-
ment has a veto on all our plans. They have a supervi-
sion of the works. Besides there can be no objection as
the works progress, and as the annual payment of por-
tions of the loan is required, that a certificate should be
given that the works were being carried on to the satis-
faction of the Government.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It is not so much

a question as to the satis faction of the Government a
to the manner in which the result of such an expen-
diture would be weighed ;Ind estimated by public opinion
soma years hence, l:Tpo D, that state of feeling then validity

of the security might be made to depend. I wish to point
that out as a matter of consideration.
Mr. TEMAlTES—Parliament has already determined
the question. The Board of Works ha:, been constituted
by the Government from a sense of the necessity of some
great work being accomplished for purifying the metro-
polis from the sewage that now pollutes its river. It is
not therefore now a question whether London requires
drainage or not, or whether the plan proposed is that
which is most likely to effect its object. The whole matter
has been thoroughly sifted, and the public mind is pre-
pared for it ; and we feel ourselves under the necessity of
pressing on its accomplishment. Of course, it is neces
sary we should look well to our finances.

The CHANCELLOR of the that
4d. in the pound would meet this charge, that would
be simply a dead weight. What other expenses would
ba going on at the same time ? Can you form any idea
what would be the future demands upon the ratepayers ?
Mr. THWAITES—The late commissioners were in the
habit of levying 6,1. in the pound.
The CHANCELLOR of the ExCHEQUER—But then you
say they have accumulated a debt of 500,0001.

Mr. THWAITES—Even supposing we could not confine
our taxation to that limit, still we have 150,0001. a year
in addition to vote for metropolitan purposes.
Sir B. HALL—When the Commissioners of Sewers
levied a sixpenny rate it was for work which does not
come under your cognisance. They had the district
sewers to superintend, which you have not.

The CHANCELLOR of the &CHEWER—How much
would your establishment cost ?
Mr. WOOLRYCH (Clerk).-22,000/., including compen-

cations.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—You think, then,
that to meet the interest of this 4,000,0001. and the sink.
ing fund a rate of 6d. in the pound would be sufficient,
aLd that you could at the same time -carry on all the-
operations of the Board 2
Mr. THWAITES—It would be much more than suf.
cient, supposing the rate of interest to be moderate.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—What I want
to get is, what would be the total poundage of the rate
levied for all purposes, including interest on the loan ?
Mr. THWAITES—That is rather a difficult question to
answer. It will entirely depend on the Batumi of the
improvements to be carried out by the Board. We may
have to form a street at a cost of 500,0001., and one at a
cost of only 50,0001. Ido not at all apprehend that the
full range of 2d. beyond the 4d. now proposed would be
insufficient. _ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—I understand
your propositions now very clearly. Of course, nothing
can be done, even assuming that your proposal was
acted upon by the Government, with your present
powers, and without going to Parliament.
Mr. Deputy HARRISON.—We are going to Parliament
respecting the formation of the new street in Southwark,
and we wish to insert clauses that shall give us the
necessary powers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—That is a pri-
vate bill. All I can say is that we will consider the
matter during the recess, and when Parliament meets
we will let you know the result.
Mr. TIIWAITES—The matter is pressing, and unless we
have assistance from the Government it is useless for us
to attempt to raise money ; we cannot do it in any other
way.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Govern.
ment have no power of contracting a loan, or of doing
anything without Parliamentary authority. Even if Go-
♦ernment had the power of making a loan to the Board
they must first borrow the money. To effect a loan, there-
fore, of 4,000,0001. it is necessary to go to Parliament.

After some further observation,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed that the
best way to bring a matter of this sort to a termination
Wa3 for the Boaid to put their proposition in writing.
They need not enter into reasons, but merely state the
substance of what it was they wished the Government
should do, and give a rough estimate of what they thought
the expenses of their undertaking would be, and in what
manner they proposed to apply the money.
The deputation'then withdrew.

[PRICE 4D. STAMPED SE.

Naval and Military intelligence.

During yesterday the number of troops who received
their discharge from Chatham Garrison was upwards of
400, on account of wounds or general disability. They
were selected from the following regiments, viz.:-4th
Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, sth Dragoon Guards, 3d
Light Dragoons, 10th Hussars, let Royals, 2d Royals,
31 Buffs, 6th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th Royal Irish,
19th, 20th, 21st Royal Fusiliers, 22d, 23d Welsh Fusi-
liers, 24th. 25th, (King's Own Borderers), 26th (Came
ronians), 27th (Enniskillens), 28th, 30th, 31st, 331,
34th, 37th, 38th, 41st (Welsh), 42.1 Highlanders (93 men),
52d Light Infantry, 53d, 63d, 64th, 67th, 68th Light
Infantry, 69 h, 70th, 71st Highlanders (Light Infantry),
73d, 75th, 80th, 831, 85-h, 86th, 87th Royal Irish
Fusiliers, 89th, 90th Light Infantry, and the Royal Ca-
nadian R;fl,s.
The re en • steam gunboats at Plymouth got up steam
on Wednesday to try their engines an operation which
will take place every three months.
The paddlewheel steatnve,sel Lightning sailed from
Plymouth on Wednesday from Portsmouth.
The screw steamship James Watt, Captain Talavera
V. Anson, having had her engines and boilers repaired,
was taken out of Keyham Docks, Devonport, on Wednes-
day. The paddlewheel steainfrigate Leopard, 18, was
put in dook the same day to be fitted with new boilers.
Orders were received at Devonport on Wednesday to
bring forward with all despatch the screw steam block-
ship Cornwallis, 60, and the sailing frigate Meander, 44.
Her Majesty's ship Shannon, 51 Car. W Peel, C. 8.,
was brought into P. rtsmouth harbour after her last trial
on Wednesday (which realised 11 knots) and is along
side the dockyard jetty receiving some further aiteration
to improve her efficiency.
der Majesty's screw sloop Plumper, 11, Commander
Haswell, is alongside the dockyard jetty at Portsmouth,
dismantling, preparatory for being paid off.
The barque Abyssinian, Captain Fisher, arrived at
Portsmouth on Wednesday with commissariat stores
from Malta, and has proceeded to Deptford to unload
them.
Her Majesty's ship Agamemnon, 91, is in dock at
Portsmouth refitting, and the Victor Emmanuel, 91, is
fitting for the pendant.
The screw block-ship Pembroke, 60 guns, is commis-
sioned at Portsmouth by Captain Fraser for coastguard
sei vice.
The Southampton, 50, at Chatham, is to be forthwith
fisted for the coastguard service, and will be stationed at
Harwich. Her marines will be selected from the Chat-
ham division, and two non-commissioned officers, one
drummer, and 12 privates of that division have already
bees selected for service on board.
The following appointments were made yesterday at
the Admiralty :-
Lieutenant J. Ward (b), to the Porcupine ; Lieu-
tenant C. H. Williams, to the Pembroke ; John C.
Barlow, Master (in command), to the Nereus; W. W.
Dillon, Master (in command), to the Naiad ; C. J. Polk-
inghorne, Master (in command), to the Cockatrice ;
Henry G. Raynes, Master, to the Formidable ; John E.
Knight, Second-Master, to the Locust; Samuel Libby,
Second Master, to the Otter ; William J. R. Hall, Pay-
master, to the Indus ; Robert F. Easton, Surgeon, to
the Southampton ; Dr. John Stirling, Surgeon, to the
Meander; Dr John Gallagher, Surgeon, to the Corn-
wallis ; Charles F. Williams, Assistants Surgeon, to the
Cornwallis ; William H. Carter, Assistant-Surgeon, to
the Antelope ; Charles A. Chanter, Clerk, to the South-
ampton ; Herbert A. Roe, Assistant-Clerk, to the
Southampton.