The Sun.
London, England, 1802-03-30 00:00:00

from the Throne, expressed by
,its condua a desire
to take the subjeft into full consideration, by the
appointment of a Committee, which Committee
had examined the subjea ; they had all the Ac-
counts before them—they understood the Accounts
thorouglity—they had no authority to deliver any
opinibn upon the subjett—they had made no obl
servations except such as were necessary to assist
the Membersof
„the House to comprehend the
whole of the vast variety of complicated AccoiMts
of Aieh the Report was composed. This led•
him to think of what he had said early in his
observations before the Committee, which was,
that ,some things he found in that Report were
'miters- of regret, for it would produce a con-
siderable addition to the burthens of the People, if
the House should adopt that which he should have
the honour of proposing to the Committee. But
that which gave him sarisfaftion was, that there
was no imputation of Mismanagement in• the course
of the application of tliis Civil List Revenue.—Nor
was there an instance of Corruption, nor any pro-
fusion in the application : to illustrate this by fad,
he should refer to some parts of the Report of the
Committee, containing information most justly laid
before the House. . In page 66, of the Report, com-
paring the Charges of the Civil List Establishment
of Increase and Decrease of Charges, upon, an ave-
rage of
.16 years, from the sth of January, 1786,
to the sth of January. last, the account stood thus ;
INCREASE. DECREASE
On an Average of Sixteen ).ears
Z. • 4;613 12 11i

Ist Class
-ad
4th -- •
stia •
t)th •
701
Sth - • - - - - -
—Occasional Payments - 58,500 3 Sl—

186 14 9

8,1p2 14 94 --
24,747.11 -

- too 7 ;

- 7,156 3 Pi
- 8,109 , 8 3
14 3 63

Z• 95,964 2 21 -. 1.5,560 17 51
Deduit Decrease 15,560 17 SA.

Net Increase - 80,403 4 84

Now he would ask the Committee, whether he
was, or was not justified in saying what he did in
setting out, that there was matter for the surprize
of the Committee ? He would ask the Committee,
whether they thought that any individual who was
obliged to maintain any respetiability in society,
could keep the rank be held without some enlarg-
.ment of his expenditure ?• He would apply this
to the experience of the Committee as to what
happened in the last sixteen years, desiring the
Committee, at the same time, to bear in mind.
that much of the Charges which were taken into
the latter part of the computation, happened during
the War. Be was sure the excess was readily ac-
counted for. He begged however to have it un-
derstood, that he did not impute the Increase in the
Expenditure to the War, merely as War, but he
would rather have it considered that the increase
took place during a period of • War, not that, the
War was the cause of the Increase ; for, during that
time, we had met three years of Scarcity.--Many
articles of His Majesty's Household had indeed
been advanced.in consequence of the War, as in-the
ordinary case of Taxes. That was the case with
respel to Wine, and some other articles in his
Majesty's Household, and the expend of which
was defray eat out of the Civil List, so that the
cireumst of the times considered, the -excess
upon the Civil List was not only matter --Of se-
tisfailion, but astonishment it was 'not more.
b....N0r was that the only feeling, for it was
also matter of regret and shame regret that
there should have been any embarrassment upon
the Civil List ; and shame that the Household
should have suffered in such a way, -the incon-
veniences which it did suffer, and which no clout);
were grievous to many individuals. He was. fully
:aware there were many parts of this Account
:which might require explanation, but not from
those whose attention had been turned particularly
to the subject. Many parts, however, might re-
,quire minute explanation at some other time, but
it:was not his intention to go at present minutely
over the Articles. There were some sums ad_
Nanced by Her Majesty for the support of the
younger branches of the Royal Family, and con-
sidering all the circumstances, it was matter of
astonishment that the whole amount of the Debt
incurred by Her Majesty on account of the younger
branches of the Royal Family was only 28,6341.—
There was advanced by the-Queen- to , His Royal
Highness the Prince of Wales, for the support of
ehe.Princess Charlotte, 21,9761. . Now considering
,the manner in which the means of His Royal High-
ness were limited, and how he was restrided by
:the appropriation of so considerable a pert of his
income to the liquidation of his debts, it was
,not reasonable that this sum should be defelyed by
His Royal Highness, nor was it just that the sum
should be taken out of His Majesty's Civil List
Revenue. The next head of the Report to which
he had occasion to refer, was in.pages A 9 and eo,
under the title Of Pensions.:—Upon this subjett he
should not enter
,upon any minute explanations,
for that he would leave to others who, were near
him, and' who would do it correftly. [Here he
read the sums total of the items under the titles of
increase and decrease of Pensions at Home, and to
Ministers at Foreign Courts, for the lest sixteen'
years.] Upon the Pensions at Home there was an
uniform decrease, amounting to 175,7901. ; upon
those to Foreign Ministers there was an 'increase
of 92,5231. Upon the subjea of 'Compensation
for the loss of Offices, Ste. the :total of the de-
crease for the same period was i 15,50,21., so very
considerable was the decrease in this. particular-.---
There was a sum of 7cool, which the Committee
would not regret ; it was .for different sums, ad-
vanced to carry on the Congress at Amiens. He
apprehended also, that the sums advanced to the
difrerent branches of the Royal Family, would meet
the approbation of xhc Committee. • They
:were
atdvenced under the pressure of difficulty), such as he
conceived to be the duty of e Minister to support
.them under, rather than that they should be-.sub-'
,jedtcci to .the great inconveniences. which must
.have resulted if the sums had not been advanced out
of the Civil List, and for which, its his opinion,
allele: ought long ago to have been some provision
made ; and this expenditure should be made an Esta-
blishment upon .the Consolidated Fund, Gentlemen
might have some difference: of opinion,: upon ,the 1
subjed of allowances to Ministers at Foreign

Courts, but in his opinion they were all unavoidable.
There was another charge which might occasion
some difference of opinion, but which was, in his
' opinion, unavoidable, he meant for the expence of
prosecuting persons for certain offences against the
State. This- occasiooed- a considerable augmenta-
tion of expence.---Another article he had to notice,
was •one on which he did not apprehend any
difference of opinion : he meant, the expence in-
curred in consequence of the dispute between this
Country and Neutral Nations, adjusted, as the Com-
mittee would recoiled that matter had been. On the
subjeet of the charges of Secretaries of State, employ-
ment of Messetigets, &e, he should say nothing, unless
particularly called upon for that: purpose. He should
abstain in the satnexpianner on the subject of Law
Charges. Indeed there was a considerable diffe-
rence of opinion upon the subject of the meaning of
that which was to be the rule of action in these
particulars. He meant Mr. Burke's Bill. That
Bill was worded so loosely, that it was extremely
,difficult, if not impossible, to 'attach to it any' pre-
cise or definite meaning in
,many of its parts. It
was indeed said; that the whole burthen of the ar-
rears was to fall on the last class therein stated.--L
That could not be so, for,' according tolhat Con-
strudion, there were many Offices to which no Sa-
laries whatever were annexed. He had indeed some
good reasons for apprehending that the true con_
. strudion of Mr. Burke's Bill was, that-Which the
practice under it required. The instances in'pradice
were numerous, and precisely as they had been lately.
These instances occurred in -the time of the Author
of the Bill, and while he was a vigilant ohserver
of the conduct of the Executive Government; and
not disposed to spare' his observations in -the
House of Commons, when any thing in such con_
dud appeared to hiria to be improper ; and yet
-while these instances occurred, that Right Hon.
Gentleman had not once observed that the spirit,
of his Bill was departed from, by the pradice of
Government in. these particulars. He then went
over all the items of which the arrears now
standing are composed, the amount of which was
990,0531. a sum which, he said, it was' impossible
to contemplate without regret ; but he had stated
how a large portion of it had been created ; no
part of it was owing to profusion, none of it had
. been corruptly -employed, and- it appeared from the
Report, what a vast portion of the whole of this
went to the necessary purposes of Civil Government,
;and was not at all appropriated, as some had most
erroneously supposed, for His, Majesty's personal
use, or for his own HousehOld E.hablishment.—
Now; he would, ask any Gentleman in the Com-
mittee, if any there were who were dispoaed, to
advert to the, amount of the present Deficiency, to
compare it with those former Aids of the Civil
List, to which he had adverted in the early part of
his observations to the Corathittee, to compare
,the
advance made in the Expenditure under,the various
heads of the Report, on the subject Of the CiVil
List, and then to see whether there Was to he found
in any. part of the Expenditure the character of
Profusion ? Had we seen any thing but what was.
to be esteemed a necessary splendour or: the part
of the Royal Family ? --a:Certainly n0ne..,77 Vie
had seen one sort of abundance on the part Of
of the Chief Magistrate of the
.community in .
which we had the happiness to live. Every virtue
that belonged to that character abounded in him ;
but with respell to outward splendour, the loyal
feelings of the People would 'have gone much,fue.
ther, if desired, than they had hitherto been called
upon to do ; and he would venture to say, that the
People had rather been disappointed for want of.
more, than satiated with too much of that splendour.
The sum advanced,for the discharge of the Arrears'
of the Civil List for the Same period, in another
reign, was more than, was now required. Arid he
Wished to know, whether there was any reason for
supposing that, although 1,400,0001. were justly
granted at a former period, there ought not to. be
900,0001. granted now ? For his part, comparing
the present with the former time; and that when the
last aid was granted, and the unavoidable expences
in the interim, of which- every individual of condi-
tion in this Country felt the force, in his own' and
his family expences, he thought the present arrears
extremely moderate, that 'it gave full proof of re-
markable frugality ; that the economy was very
great ; for which reason he trusted there would
be no opposition to the Resolution with which ,he
should have the Honour of concluding. He had no
hesitation in saying, that according to his opinion,
the augmentation for the younger branches of the
Royal Family, or advances made to them,. should
not in future be chargeable on the Civil List, but on
the Consolidated Fund, of which however Parlia_
ment were to judge. If the House adopted the Re-
solution which he should have the honour of moving,
the Expence in the first instance would fall on the
People ; there was, however, a circumstance to be
attended to in that. particular. The COmMittee
Would recoiled that he expressed a hope, on a for-
mer occasion, that there would be some means of a
diminution of the buithena of the People by'the sale
of the Crown Lands in the West Indies, St. Vin-
cent, &c. that was not, however, to be provided
for at this moment, but might become matter for
future discussion ; but he begged to be understood,
as being most clearly of opinion, that without any
reference to such resources as that to which he bad
now hinted, and if there had been no' hope of any
such resource, the payment of the present-arrears of
the Civil List would be matter of unquestionable
'propriety, and such as would become the wisdom of
Parliament to provide for. The aubjed. therefore
of these resources from the West Indies, was fir
matter for a separate and distinct 'discussion.
,The
Civil List Arrears ought, in his opinion, robe paid
off without taking that matter into consideration at
all. He was well convinced that if there were
no resources, but such as he had hinted at,
.Parlia-
ment would find them abundant, in the • good sense,
the justice and the loyalty of the People of England.
Now, although it was not his intention to propose
any permaneut addition now' to the yet
he had no difficulty in saying it would,' in the pre-
sent condition of things, be impossible to maintain,
without further aid, the necessary splendour of the
Crown, and to support the necessary expenditure oli
Royal Family : and -therefore, he hoped, that some
relief would he. afforded 'to the Civil List here.
after, by taking' away flora it some charges

which it at present bore, and which, in Lis
opinion, did not belong to it, and laying them on
the Consolidated Fund. Several .heads of chatt4es
now tipon the' Civil .List, and wllich Icad b'en so
:Fluting -tilie War, might witli rptiipttety be Charged
-on the Consolidated Fund, and w,Dich chargeS were
very heaVy and enormozls on His Majesty's Civil List
Revenue during the War. The account of all which
should be laid before them and after, such, ac_
counts were laid beforethe House, he hoped the sub-
jet would be brought. forward again for discussion,
for which he Should be perf&tiy ready. He thought
it was unnecessary for him to trouble the Committee
any further, for the present; he " was thankfill for
the indulgence he had met in the course of whathe.
had delivered before the •Committce, some part
which were 'naturally dry and unengaging, and, he
was afraid ixendered more so from the manner in
Which it had been treated by.hirn. He should now
Conclude with moving,

" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a Sum
not exceeding. 990,0531. be granted to His MAJi.STY, to
discharge Arrears and Debts due and owing on the Civil List,
on the ath of January, • rli6a,i'•

FOX said, he did not know to whoM the
Right Hon, Gentleman alluded, When he spoke of
some who might- wish to curtail the splendour of
royalty, but he wished to purge himself from 'any
accusation of wishing to abridge .the- splendour of
any part of the Royal Family, and particularly that
of the Chief Magistrate;; his disposition was very
opposite to such a wish.' If there was any thing in
. temper and humour, he shOuld be less•likely to treat
the "present question very severely, as he had been
in London only four hours, and had heard two of the
most pleasant pieces of news that he had heard for
some time. When he stepped out of his' chaise, he
was told the Definitive Treaty•had arrived, and
since he had been in that House, His Majesty's
Ministeer bad given notice of his intention of re-
pealing the Income Tax, -which probably he him-
self should have been instruded, on the next day,
to support, the repeal of; a Tax which he considered as
most.•unkist, injurious, and oppressive :_ he was,
therefore disposed to be pleased.', This, -however',
was not a question to be voted out of good humour ;
they were to consider what was to be done, and
whilst they shew,ed.theirattachment to the Throne,_
they were to consider what was due to their Consti-
tuents, and what was 'due to the Constitution. ,
thought the early-part of the Right Hon. Gentle:
man's Speech did not bear much upon'the question
he alluded to the history of the Civil List; which
the Right Honourable Gentleman had given.--.
He conceived, that prior to the :Revolution,
any discussion relative to .the King's Hereditary,
Revenues, or his rights of Revenue, was as lit-
tle to the purpose. as . any; question relative so
any subject of. antient history, however remore.—sr
The whole system relative to this subject had been
.changed since that period : previous.to it the King
-could dispose of hiss Hereditary Revenues in what-
,eVer way .he pleased, without the consent of Par-
liament ; and were the Revenues,of our Sovereigns,
prior to the Revolution, to sbe compared to the
Civil List of Our present Monarch, taking into the
account the
.then and present value of money,- it
would be as gold to silver. Eat was this Revenue
appropriated for the King's individual exeences ?
No ..he held- it in trust fur the Public ; it was not
only Household expences that were to be defrayed
out .of it, but -the expences of the Nation, and of
the general well-being and defence Of the Country. ;
It was true that extraordinary expences were met by
extraordinary supplies; but he-was bound to protest
his Subjeds out of its produce. It was not worth.
while to discuss this subject any further, but as by
the system-adopted- subsequent -to the Revolution,
the Civil List warthe same in Peace as in War, and
Parliament provided for the expences of the Nation,
it would be very strange logic if Parliament was
to take all the burdens, and the King to enjoy his .
Hereditary Revenues, those Revenues which were
enjoyed by the Crown for the express purpose of
protecting and defending. the Nat-ion. It never
could -be supposed •that this was the intention of
Parliament, though it *as true that. several Mo-
narchs had prodigally wasted those revenues so as to
render them of little consequence. The revenue of
James the 11. had been stated to be z,000,p001.
which, it was evident, when the value of the money
at that-time was considered, could not have been
granted for: the mere purposes. of •the Civil List.--
This, , however, had nothing to do with the pre-
sent question ;,as from the. moment that Parliament
exonerated the Crown, for,that was the state of the
case, from ,the .Expences. of the Nation, from that
moment •the Hereditary Revenue of the Crown
becaine a part of the Public Revenues of the State,
and were placed under the contralti 'of Parliament- ;
that it 'So 'Understood in the time of King Wil-
liam, he had little dOubte The Right Hon. Gene'
tleman had said, that it was not decided at that
period,ewhether King William was entitled to these
Revenues, jure Corona', or not ; but if: it was not
decided' in words',. it wilS completely decided by
-fitets';` It might be Matter Of doubt, aS-•King
came to the .Throne by the, will' of
the People, whether he was entitled of right to
these Revenues ; bin of this- he was sure, that if
'King Williarn the Third had no right, King George
the Third had none ; for he hoped and trusted that
he was not the Representative of. James the. Second,
,but of William the Third. The. Parliament, how_
:ever, in the time of king. William the Third, de-
cidcd that question beyond all possibility of cavil, as
they appropriated-certain Revenues to the purposes
of the Civil List, which' Revenues were in Isla the
Hereditary, Revenues of the Crown, properly so
_called, and then they provided, :that if these
Revenues should exceed in their produce the suits of.
700,c5001. -the surplus should be appropriated as ,
Parliament•should think proper. Not only- this, blit
if any of those Revenues should exceed the sum of'
700,0001. the surplus was to he appropriated at the
pleasure of Parliament. He stood therefore upon'
this-decision, though there were many other deci-
sions which rendered the Hereditary
.Revenues of
the-Crown applicable. by :Patrliament. The system
'adopted then had been ever since pursued. He hap-1
pened the other day to throw out a doubt whether,
the Civil List ought to be granted for life, •or from
time to - time. • Parliament in 'the reign of -King
William, at first granted it from time to time, but
afterwards, very justly-, as;he thought, they granted

it for life ; in this example they
the Parliament at the accession of Queen Ant2t4
Geo. the I. 11. and and his opinion wl.e
great ;judgment. With respell to Queen'Annet rns_
whole of the Hereditary Revenues were vprop,..o
ated : with resped to Georqc the I. betlioug'
the Right Hon. Gentleman was. mistaken, in alert"
ing that the Civil List of that MonarOh
were followed • e
Soo,oool. he I3elie ved it .was. only 706,0001%_„.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. Sliat
grant was 700,00°L but the experidittitt
800,oaol. •
mdn h"adi,oltex Is'ariedc,ecladie(di .g—reTth. sett
ties which His present Mftjesty had to pay to the
ResisgtlliptonHotz Gents
Mr,
Princess Amelia, the Duke of Cumberland, 07,
Other branches of the Royal Family, but see
forget forget that George the First paid too,6ool;"°•_,,nt
the Civil List to George the
.Second, then rrit;cl-1°
Wales, which reduced the Civil List to 60010'°',.,„
It was true, that in the reign •of George the r,D.l_
an application was Made in aid of the ..Clvl
• e
.List, and it was equally true,. that l'aFitainn
relieved it from its. difficulties-; but the
lief was afforded by means'. of a SixpentlY
upon Pensions and Salaries, ,thus enabling td,
Civil List to relieve itself, without, in any
tier, burthening the PUblic. George 1-1 the •
a Grant of Soo,oool. a year for any excess, int.tilele.
produce. of which the Crown was not answeia,'
In the reign of that Monarch, a successful APP,;'"Ci;
Lion was made to Parliament, not to tile je
pay • of
of the 'Civil List, but to make OW the o'l,-6'4,
. •
-of its Revenues. • The Right- Honourable, `_,-'scot- •
denim laid so much .stress, upon the bur"el-hatl
George the Third, as
_if Geefrge the Second
rea
pone at all ; but the latter Monarch gr'nd,
uut -of his Civil List -so,ocol. a- year to-freher
rick Prince of Wales; besides. large sums or. °hto.e
branches of the Royal Family. Many o,l' i're-'e
burdens continued at the accession of
the ill. The annuity of the Duke of Cu-c-•,,il
land
_was paid 'for fifteen years.' our 'of the
1 e
List of .:George 'the IL, but 'only for five Yerjeat
:out of that. of George
.the. ,when that ."A-1.4
Prince died. Several of the Other Annuitaots ';00.
Of theciaritpt were paid 17c;t several years dull::
the reign-of George the 11. and hut for ac° 971• L
ratively short period during the reign ofGeorgen the
The Right certainly Hon. Gentleman tak
the
best way of communicating the subject to
liOtiSe, by referring:to His Majesty's IVICSOg jgC
self. stipport_ the argument, the
should have stated, that His Majesty was re36lge.
give up his Claims relative to 'his. HereditarY(3ai
venues, which would have been singlilar, as in
there was nothing to give up. The :Vlessaget het to
ever'„. wed no such thing. The argumentol
this; that because Revenues, amounting to ,Soo,°‘)thc
were--granted to His Majesty's Grandfather!
"same Revenues ought to be granted' to His Nl"Jesr`to;
although they might amount in their pr,khlee,„an
1,600,0001. a year. The Right Hon. Gcritle,7de
had 'said; that the Civil List' was thought ton 'l'l.
at the time it was gFanted ; but His Majesty „
rimers, at that time; united in proposing and stZ.it
porting the Grant, and Ile could not believe, ize.,
the Ministers of that day would have proposed ait.,iss
venue :inadequate to the claims upon it;,
he was convinced, that they
.did "°t- for
adequate. He would suppOsei however,
1--
trite
moment, that they . didpropose an .ina''ecrto
Revenue. At the -.end of nine years, .inient,
year 1769, an application was made to Parl,.'''' about
to relieve the Civil List; with a sum Ot j nor
500,0001. the
,amount of its:_debtp. cot!'" hat
speak relative to the Debate upon the sohie6iwer
there were several Pamphlets published at tile
lac
amongst which one written by Dean Tacker,,,Pv.,.
the subjectina, very ingenious point of v' 'that
There were several additional 'eXpences durilolfood,
period, such as- the Coronation, &c. not wit led 10
ing which, the whole • debt. only 000!'
500,0001. which was somewhat more ,than 5-11115
a year, on an cxpence of 850,0001: ye' r•
debt was.paid, and; as he conceived, vithe.,,, ataß
Eight years afterwards, another demand sv: some"
for •the debts .of the Civil List, and it vi3iod e'fr
what singular, that the debt of the latter Pc; whilsr
ceeded that of the former, it being 6oo' o°°" o f this •
the latter was only soo,oool. The paynE t •,ion°
debt was strongly opposed, and upon th
the question, there was a minority in • rile, hey."...
tion,
,considerable for talents .and resrec:l"''lle pro'
He opposed it, and still more stro.n„LorlY t°
position which was then. broughtare`
is obi
increase His Majesty's civil List. ••;tire
served truly, that admitting the expendli
these eight years, the expences' of the Civil e
not amount to 960,0001. a year. The
evet, thought fit, very his °PII °col. /
increase His Majesty's Civil °List to 9°°'
')" •
year. The speech of the Speaker of the 14
sotto
Gammons, (Sir 4i:roil:E. dn Pre Pat
<ART° the V
the Billcontaining this additional. grant xt
be Mel
'of the House of LordS, would, he-tritste-'
s ft,
remembered, Mr.. Fox desired the sPee.el. 0,351'
1
to might be read from the Journals, (wh'ecciiit
cordingly read by the Clerk) it was a sPe tre of
however .Court-sycophancy, might disaPPressr-i•
met with the approbation of that House, er;ved
'by a 'Vote. of' Thanks, and was not . (3;0111'4 was
by His Majesty, as Sir FLETCHER ISTOI e scl7
The( rjef,
few years afterwards created a Peer. °1
another man,' whose talents were of the .6Pr
alicwitil,
for whom he entertained die highest respe. front
Thifr
resped to whom he had now forgotten anYthero,
los
mosities.thatiniglit have existed between nWI •
Gentleman(Mr. Bo RICO had produced a 131"tloore IP,f,
his name had been given; and which wen! ;Vac le
islatureaejntlelerP°l
Les.
ht
priticiple,:that the Debts of the Civil -siatnf
Leg,l (.65
theinselves criminal, and that when the ty fe
had fixed. the amount of the Civil Lists eve bitetA
was a disobedience 'to the 'Leg 0,1 t
niisdemtanour.a rche Right Hon• 0 rt. to
said that the Aa.was, with respect to respd
the payment,- loosely word-d ; and with .00
:he technical and legal meaning of it, he 1605°'
I the inte
answer ; but the spirit. of it, ant n• ht
the framer, were well knnwil- c a v
The :Igrellot
Gentleman' had however Made-Use n". t dangeo,
which might be .good,..hut wits of atfsgighr
tendency to the Constitution•- thep3y .7
tip
nourable Gentleman had asked,0 1 •• os
r,rals -
ve"eic-not 'made according to the r--v

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