The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-12 00:00:00

MARCH 12, lB5l.

stick of timber was ent down. Th., cnit r.t the
a, ;,A h3ll
been put to the enormous expense of 7,0131. Walt-
ham Forest had almost entirely passed into
the hands of the neighbouring proprietors, and
the result was, there had been an end of

litigation, to the great loss of the public, who more than
once had been compelled to pay the Attorney-General
enormous fees, amounting to up eards of 3001, for doing
—what did the House suppose? Wny, nothing mure than
putting on his gown and wig.—(Laughter.) He hoped
after this statement of facts the House would be
disposed to support his motion, and then there would be a
chance of diminishing, if not altogether abolishing, these
gross and crying evils.—(Hear, hear.) A Mr. Kent was
appointed to manage the timber of Selsey Forest, who
was a clerk in a solicitor's office in the City, and who
knew nothing whatever about the nature of his
duties. The consequence was that after the lapse
of six years he failed, and on inquiry being made
it was found that he had cut down 4,0001. worth of oak,
and applied the proceeds to his own purposes. This
person soon afterwards disappeared, but was ul-
timately apprehended, convicted, and transported.
Now, what was the use of talking of economy,
when such practices as these were allowed?
He did not attach blame to the individuals then holding
the offices of Commissioners of Woods and Forests, but
his did blame the system by which there never was any
calling to account of these officers on the part of Parlia-
ment, and he must again say that if estimates had been
laid before Parliament there would have been none of
these irregularities. These unfortunate persons were
the victims of a temptation they could not resist, and it
was the want of control by Parliament, of which the
House ought to be heartily ashamed, which had enabled
them to commit those irregularities. There were no
maps or surveys of the forests before the meeting of the
Committee, but all the land had been converted into
plantation of timber for the use of the navy. That being
so, let the House judge of his surprise when he moved
for a letter addressed by Mr. Barrow, the Secretary to
the Admiralty, to Mr. Milne, in June,lB33, which, stated
that "in consequence of a statement of the comparative
expense of wood furnished by the King's forests and
that supplied by private contract, the Admiralty did
not think it to the interests of the public that it should
pay some 51. a load' more for that furnished by the
King's forests." Mr. Barrow stated that the cost of a
load of wood from the Woods and Forests was, indepen-
dent of all other expenses, 8/. 6s. 61. a load, whereas it
could be got from a contractor for 61.—(Hear.) This was
not stated in the reports presented to the House, and
they had not been able to judge if it was worth their
while to incur such an additional expense in the rearing
of timber. There had been no opportunity of debating
the question or entering into an examination of the true
state of things, when they only had such reports, and
which never came under the eyes of Members of the
House. The question he had now to ask was, whether
with such instances as he had given of the position in
which the Woods and Forests stood, the House would
allow the Crown estates to remain in the condition in

which they were a year and a half ago?—(Hear, hear.)
He now came to the question of the management of the
Crown estates, and he thought he should be able to show
such results as fully to justify him in making this mo-
tion. Previously to the appointment of the Committee
the present Duke of Newcastle, who had been Chief
Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, moved for a
return of the income and expenditure of the Woods and
Forests for the last ten yearn, which had been laid before
the Committee, and he would read the results of that
return. The gross income of the Woods and Forests
for seven years, 1842.3-1848 9, was 2,446,785/. ; the
sums paid into the Exchequer during the same
period, 774,000/. ; the difference, or amount with-
held, was 1,612,785/. The expenditure by the re-
turn appears to have been during the same period,
1,555,085/. The difference is an increase of the balance
in hand, 117,700/., to account for the expenditure of
which no subsequent returns have yet been laid before
Parliament. The gross receipt for the land revenue in
the same seven years (in round numbers 280,0001. per

annum) was 1,983.9241.; the expenditure charged on
the same (about 90,0001. per annum), 637,6441, being a
charge of 30 per cent. on that branch of the grown re-
venue, which consists mainly of rents. The gross re-
ceipts of the royal forests during the same period was
272,5631., from which, deducting 21,000/. for the mines,
they had a net produce for the forests of 251,5631. The
expenses *luring the same period amount to 274,9891.,
showing a clear loss of 23.4261. during seven years on a
property of the value of two millions. The gross re-
ceipts for the royal parks in those seven years were
191,9081., this sum, including 72,000/. secured from the
Duke of Sutherland for the sale of York House, applied
to the formation of Victoria Park. The expenditure in
the same period of seven years was 640,4521., showing a
surplus expenditure in the parks in that period of 449,1441.
Thus only about 32 per cent. of the whole revenue
collected reached the Exchequer in seven years, and in
the year 1847.48 only 18 per cent. of the sum
collected reached the public purse, viz., 61,0001. paid
in out of 340.5991. collected. The gross income of Woods
and Forests for 1848 49 was 347,2751. ss. ld., and gross
expenditure 207,485/. 10a. Bd.; the surplus income was
132,7891. 14s. sd. The amount paid over to the Ex-
chequer in part of the surplus income of the year
81,0004 leaves unaccounted for 51,7891. The gross in-
come of Woods and Forests in 1849-50 was 349,0971. ss.
2d.; the gross expenditure, 192,1021. 17a. 11d.; surplus
income, 156,9941. 7s. 3d. Amount paid over to the Ex-
chequer as surplus income, 206,0001. Paid over more
than received, 43,0061. When they came to look further
into the matter they came to an item of expenditure
which threw all others into the shade, and which he would
read to the House. It was extracted from the appendix to
the report of the Committee of 1848, and which contained
a return of the law expenses paid to the solicitors of the
Woods and Forests in seven years. It was as follows:
In the years 1842, 9,132/. 17s. Id.; 1843, 9,763/. 2s.
lid.; 1844, 11,5241. 1 Is 3d.; 1845, 8 279/. 3s. Bd.; 1846,
11,393/. 6s.—total in five years, 50,093/. Os. 11d.; 1847,
15,639/. 33. 4d.; IC4B, 13,5091. ls. ld.—total, 79,2414 ss.
4d. This was the amount psid to the London solicitor
alone, besides which there were other solicitors' bills in
Edinburgh and Dublin, that in Edinburgh amounting to
about 3.0001. a year, besides bills on other places. He
(Lord Duncan) asked the Heuse if such a statement as
that did not justify his motion. The figures might be
right, or they might be wrong, but what he wanted was
that Parliament should have an opportunity of knowing
the facts. There was a lawsuit, for instance, between the
Primate of Ireland and the Crown, which lasted from
1731 to 1802, and which cost 6.602/., yet this suit failed
at last for the want of a title on the part of the Crown.
That, however, was not the only lawsuit. At this
moment there was one going on of a very serious cha-
racter between her Majesty and her faithful city of
London as regarded the soil at the bottom of the Thames.
It was commenced in 1844, and consi ierable expense
had been incurred; but what had come of it he could
not say, as no reference was made to it in the report
of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. What he
(Lord Duncan) sought for was an annual estimate of the
expenses of this department to be voted by Parliament,
and on which, therefore, the House could express an
opinion. Parliament, he maintained, could not but look
with jealousy upon a department of the State managing
its own affairs, without reference to the control of that
House. One item which he should mention would cast
in the shade all he had hitherto said on the subject.
From 1832 to 1848, a period of sixteen years, property
belonging to the Crown had been sold by the Board of
Woods and Forests to the extent of 696,2751., without
Parliament being consulted on the subject, though that
House was distinctly constituted as the guardian of this
property. Parliament, no doubt, was informed of the
fact; but it was not until after the sale had been made.
Of this property, to the value of 361,000/. had been sold
by public auction; but 335,000/. worth had been sold by
private treaty. Under the 10th Geo. IV„ c. 50, it was
enacted that all moneys derived from the sales of landed
estates, the property of the Crown, should be reinvested
in the purchase of other property of the same nature to
an equal amount. But, according to the statement of
Mr. Barrow, an unexceptionable evidence, at least
300,000/, of this money was invested in property which
was not of a very productive character. When the
House of Commons, therefore, was called on to give an
account of their stewardship to the c :untry, what an-
swer could they make to these statements? He (Lord
Duncan) had, he trusted, said sufficient to justify the
motion, and he should now only suggest the remedy in
conclusion. It was that the control of Parliament should
be called in; and that the management of the Woods
and Forests should be subjected to annual investigation.
Ira a word, that the gross receipts of that department
should be paid into the Exchequer, and no money paid
out on its account without the sanction of a vote of the
House of Commons. He had no doubt he should be
told that these were casual expenses—the expenses of
the years in question; and that as they happened in an
unfortunate period they were not likely to happen again.
To this, theantshwaet
such
rw
asplain and simple: public doca-
ineuhad been always the case with the
tt proved
management of these revenues. It was Fo in 1711, it was
so tn 1798, and it was so in 1850, on the showing of the
Nc,ble Lord at the head of the Government. (The Noble
Lord read extracts to that effect from the report of the
Royal Commission of 1711; from that of the finance
Committee, June 8, 1798 ; and from the speech of Lord
John Russell, Feb. 22, 1850.) He asked the House,
under these circumstances, what reliance could be placed
on the miscellaneous estimates under the present system
of management; and appealed to Hon. Members whether
he had not fully established a justification for his mo-
tion. The Noble Lord n•ncluded by moving:—Whereas
it appears by returns laid before this House, and before
the Select Committee of Woods, Forests, Works, &c.,
thstt during a period of seven years (from 1842 3 to
1648-9) the gross income derived from the possessions
and land revenues of the Crown has arnonnted to
2,446,7851., and that out of this sum only 774.000/. has
been paid into
whereas du the public account at the Exchequer; sad
flog the sane period it appears that a sum
amounting to 1,672.785/ has been withheld for charges
of collection and management, and for other expenses
charged upon the seid revenues, it is ex p, client, with a
view to place the expenditure of this branch of the public
service under the more immediate control of Parliament,
that the gross income derived from the said revenues
should hereafter be pael into the Exchequer, and that
the necessary expenses for collecting and managing the
same should be voted by this House, upon estimates to
be annually submitted to Parliament by her Majesty's
Government.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
Lord SEYMOUR said he was no more responsible for
the management of the office of Woods and Forests
previous to 1849, than any other Member of the House.
—(Beat-, he tr.) He confessed, when he entered
upon his duties in that year, he imagined, after
all he had heard, that he should find the
revenue arising from Crown lands very much reduced,
and the value of the land which had reverted to the
Crown seriously impaired. However, on referring to the
returns on the subject, he discovered that the revenues
were not in that lamentable and deplorable condition
in which his Noble Friead had represented

t'''''', f ) rr, , „;,:,, from
be. e.eeee ro^r ^r,r, • ~. -.
~•,, . ,i, • , 'AI; ii cJ, 4.45 19,6A1.; le 1;99 “ .
had goeen
to 21,6001.; in 1809, 42,0001; in 1819, 120,0001;
in 1829, 183,1001.; in 1839,. 188,400/. ;_. and Jill
1849 and 1850 to 203,300/. (paid into the Exchequer,
200,0001.) Under the authority of Parliament, the rents
of the land revenue were wholly diverted from the Es'
chequer for the purposes of the improvements in Regent
-
street and the strand; in 1837, these purposes having
been accomplished, the surplus rents were made avil'
able in aid of ways and means, and continued annually to
beai so ever since. Between the years 1829 and 1839 ore
ti 'n light-houses, belonging to the Crown, were trans'
erred to the Trinity Board, by which the rental of the
Crown 000
property diminished u pwards of 10,1. per
acnnum. The Irishwas land revenue was transferred to the
Commissioners of Woods in 1827. In 1828 it EtWOUOted
to 56,400 e; in 1829 to 60,8001.; in 1839 to 53,200/.; ill
1849 to 54,2001. The greater part of the Irish lend
re;
venueie wards e
consisted of feefarm, or unimprovable rote, of
wb • h there had been sold, in the aggregate,
up:
6,0001. per annum since the transfer. The 'Scotch We
revenue was transferred to the Commis..ioners of Wesa,S,
in
1832. In 1831-2 it amounted to 14,9001; in 1849-0 v
fto 26,8001. The revenue Of the Lle of Man was trail'
erred to the Commissioners of Woods in 1827-8 e Iv
1827-8 it amounted to 1,4001.; in 1829.30 to 2,100 e; tb'i
1839-40 to 5,4001.; and in 1849-50 to 5,000/. Ii fat
that that summary, though necessarily brief, won; roc
to show that the affairs of the department bes 'de
been so grossly mismanag
on ed as the repr 00,5
the subject might have left the House to suppose. ,
he happened to have been in town attending Partial's
and otherwise occupied here during the past Yesr;, the
attention had been turned more to the property (4,',,„,
Crown in London than to its possessions in the country
.Now, the Crown rents, from the property of the Crows of
in London amounted in the year ending en the 31',,,,g
\larch, 1850, to 137,885/. The cost of collecting P'oo
revenue was only 1,0001.--(Hear, hear.) Itt sitel nor
there was not such bad management there. m"dlithe
came to the statement of his Noble Friend, who tol a
ouse that the gross income of the Crown PI bees
during the seven years to which their attention had 03%;
especially directed amounted to 2,446,785/., ee,d heel
during those years only 774,000/. of that sum ha" scree
paid into the Exchequer, his Noble Friend a the Baio,
time adding that a sum of 1.672,0001. had been other%
expended, of which expenditure he seemed to saPtf,
that the House had not been sufficiently informed; 1:1,:i
somehow or other, those funds had altogether evspor
lib-0
without the knowledge of Parliament and TAO° he
proper exercise of its control. He had, then, i°,3101
first place to observe, that the balance to the ereubi of
land revenues of the Crown amounted in the mot be
April, 1849, to 145,269/„ and that sum wt's - eeb
deducted from the 1 672,0001. referred to
of his Noble Friend. There was a further 50111..,,,a
116,920/. for the Victoria-park, which certainly rwo
no part of the expenses of the land revenue. '' ve
in the eV of
done by Act of Parliament, and was as clear en aghil,
priation as any vote of the House of COMMOOS. . 'ro•
then, reduced the sum of which his Noble Frieria evor,
plaieed to 1,410 000 e, which was accounting fqeite,:ble
tion of it. But beyond this there was a consul tee
portion fixed by Act of Parliament with whis net-
House of Commons could not interfere—there Wersrer
manent charges on the land revenues of the time
of
pointed by old Acts of Parliament, as old as tbe Übe re,
Charles, which were set forth in the apPendixelteeetd bees
port, and under the authority of these 138,60te-R-; well
paid in the course of the seven years. Parliames cog
hadil recently interfered with those funds by diredilly t
t a application of money for improvements ill.,riecoe 0
and tor augmenting the fund known by we° to the
Queen Anne's Bounty. That expenditure ere°,,e 01
extent of 78.0001., which, added to the I°°'e dr
already mentioned, gave a total of 216,0001 to . ;be
ducted further from the 410.0001. For 01 ibis ;be
present officers of the department were bY .flepois'
responsible—they were old transactions for which
thanneent itself was responsible. Nothing could be
(figrreer
.that; and having said so much, be vii°ll.le et the
mind the House that last year his Noble Friend 'roe/
head of the Government had shown himself 030 St dVoodj
to divide the Board of Works from the office eefed tbst,
and Forests and Land Revenue, and recoralneuu;ofideo
a Bill should be brought in and the exPew's /4oocl.
afor.hy votes of that House. The department tweet
and Forests would then be subordinate to the , ' fee the
evils
to him then, that the proper reineul a 000
filc which his Noble Friend stated would be te,Breelis•
Bill that was proposed in the last session 01
merit. For himself he might say be was 50%jetle;ttirre
come as well acquainted as be could with tbeee.iessure9
fibootriudeirgbtfo
be
ee
iouffruusdeueinedtheue
tdbisecuoussbi.on
fo_frules^; beetle')
jec •
He was glad, during the few months that 0967,
be couldd wit,.
for the purpose, not only to make himself sequel/10f the
forests details of the department, but to visit as rese'rere, to
take as he possibly could. He intended, therhecegb he
the
part in the consideration of the Bill; sad te voila?
amight be placed at the head of the I3oard el fed widt
therefore, probably not immediately coupe' wider
Woods and Forests, he should still be led too hoop
everyßut,
assistance in legislating with regartibe elLer
gmhteagmenreesralmlyi the r ender
might
a strong conviction that, tholgu
ice of Parliament, yetsurely the House°. cos'
tßt :egt ,n
to_ b e whatever
brou
. dot de 150 d
mons could not deal with all the minute f the
nected with year to year Coer
reven
revenues
the collection and Management 0 . there
bse,offerth e Crown and the royal forerptrepertio
would be, instance, the drainage of a anotherßrer! te
Over such smallor
in one county,
contribution therepair
might be often, isws
the
place, ass. matters a irofthae maintenancet aHrmo
uehsfoeuasesurrolessidy
ci eo:_usfol 0wu...0.
_ istance the drainage of land in 1,...,AD0i
exerciserue any effectual control. They raigpt lee ft?,
1 s and principles, they might take
ruler;inee the;
guardingm. against the infringement of those dee el
lght, on the mass of the transactions, elte.bb 0001 P
effectual control, but they could not interfere rit„.ea 10
details; if they did they would probably not 110°4-a bete,
thefloundertaking. The House had much better orriet
its Mat OOP
out.umHe good principle, and insist on
e regretted that the Committee did not pro:
some broad and general principle, el:lowing bow 1,0410
rertr of the Crown might be managed, and bo° of VW
improved. It the House wiebed to Oh; MY
best ;oat
improve the Crown be theege 11/A4*
property,
mustof 1193 and
ale"
go back
The law to the report •• oee 0.
expenses incurred certainty _a bo ,
enormous, but when the House releeinWrd 0'
fere v _439
much Crown property had bees sec se reped
how much had been lost, they would ‘
ground for this great outlay. The resolutiooopoodoo.
byb his Noble Friend would be. ineffective, and' this le,lo-
- carried nut, as Parliament could sot contreeectote '1;
nute expenditure. It would be better for the efoolle
permitr the Bill to be brought in, dividing t'reightha
rthe
Works, so that all the expendiWre
1 the elP;0
confidedwould become
to one of these departments, erbl.° is sves -0
become a mere source of revenue. k. boil lie:
doubt true that the metropolitan irnproveineor, badjeititf
undertaken by the Woods and Works ie Wl'
rovers o•
ile
pacity, and that the security of the leaned reeelorhe' e b
beenwo mortgaged for the execution or tee one bre-°O3
Id admit also that the facility with which °Roped
was able to borrow money which the other. 0 stofn.
and
bled to proceedings which it was desirable he te/vj
.eo e proposed to accomplish this bY di/it:001e
dof pthretments. It certainly appeared from t''' last e-ea
revenue and expenditure of the Foreetspeee "03
as read by his Noble Friend,that the "Pen
i I°ek
Of b° 00
the income were very nearly balanced; be'
.ed find tor
-to the end
w of the Forests' accounts, be for the tiro 0,
there
thee:.e sums to be received for aid. 1008
given to
navy which had not yet li'eell Pe WM ,b 0
as thatf ocoro ice ,
was the chief source o w air re.
forests, it
seemed to him to be an odd 1,/aY - got IV Lot
expenditure and the income before you bad
_, no I
cei t
thisP se—(Laughter.) The Admiralty did not 00;
.timber until it a • dthe dockyard. •'' phi°
possible for th ea arrived at resolall°,lle heel
implied wh e eeouse to agree to a e Noe es Th
at was not the fact, that 1,67 t .eente , die
withheld without the knowledge of Pa interests or „'he
realrequirements of the case and the intAeilg WO "or
public service
Bill of would be best met by prone'e'l Igo Co
A toef"
_ elle which Lord J. Russell gave d•egli dolts
ln ement of the session. He would aeeer l• te
130
.., a I do 00
as an amendment, for leave to bring 01 the IVOO ai,
better • •
provision for the management of
nd for ~lit•ch
forests and land revenues of the Crown, 11-j3et 01 ""eseo
section
of the üblic This s the • •to se
works. we are M
he had
spoken, which divided the present bo .
de'
departments. floe
901° tie
Mr. H
UME said the first part of the re aOl 00 o
elated that certain results had taken OW, vrhill roes hi;
d that th/d coui
could deny. The secondaffirm Part e er, ere
come ought
to be paid into the Beeebrtle •ietst e be,
there
. . be any person who would not concur 1,
.sripeip
sitton? He advised the House to affirm that .reeese, if
When the Government Bill was before the ee en 0
010"
would be seen how far the details met the res
the Noble Lord the Member for Bath. trY"rl
Sir B. HALL thought the House and the 0100) for
much indebted to his Noble Friend (Lord ?re ireittill
the assiduity with which he had Pursue- rlb ""(Li°°
into the management of the Crown lat-sc'; 0011
cheers.)thatAs a metropolitan Member, be Intl 0000°,
colllo2 cod fec
having been brought into frequent
with the Noble Lord at the head of the WOOlgeer armors
rests (L ,rd Seymour), henever saw a Public e d iri 11.111
. , , , existed . I
anxious to prevent the abuses which De. ) A Act
department than the Noble Lord.--(Cheers../ sto u
times he had found t 0%01100
the Noble Lord mos msei
~
that h was desirable for the public interes h _tot.
sets IP h 0
reference to the individuals in that estawheen 'l
(Cheers.) The Noble Lord, however, bee not d, 004 II
to controvert the statements of his Noble ice b 98,
was sure that if the Crownproperty were broil otet
by year under the notice of PIP • p 11'1°111d b rhament. 1 f lb°
managed and at less g o
Sir ix ~,,, cost to the country.. orthat
H. W ILLOU GHBY should rest hinds suPP..4. j,
imotion of Lord Duncan upon two grou-t Wouu,
arge sums were received-and expended by 0, upo0;
.and Works, and secendly, that no the eeeleteL'id /site ;
large portion of this expenditure. ile w°l3 010
d and be fcgi' g it'e
wider range than his
Nellie Frien , dor° • or°
the sum • received by the Woods and Forests op 04
last eighteen years was 7,340,000/., while the eltPoo.o°,
during that time had been no less than 6; thie e'';
It was no answer to say that a large portion "et. for 0
ptenditure ww, appropriated by Act of Parlisre.,,,e 09 the
l: large proportion was not so applied. Smell '"i. it fe,
actual surplus carried to the public Exebeclehee'slete )
altogether delusive, because it was created berate c botr.o,
of s. !ling the capital of this reeerty.--("feje's al.',
Fie en 1831 to 1849 he believed that no. -1851 fig
1,200,0001. of the capital bad been oold. From -03 /5'
f 0 • t'
1842 the . •
capital sold amounted to 744,0001; .1.-n ligba
to 1849 it was 133,000/. A large sale of Croon fd
houses took place also in 1839, for which 300,0
re bo-
obtained. When the Committee asked &tr. Get, etlift,
this 300,000/. was expended, the could gft 1;- TP
anewer than that it was expended uynproductiov," e 0:
Board of W.iods and Forests had, in truth, brieene,'
they
i.n.couipatible functions. They receive'lei di
TOldP.sid( money,
they sold their capital, sied,,,t opiee•
e . Rear.) They had not only 5014 sl3'

cal
We
th 4
101

• lu

t

v.-- 0 de,
obit° Duores no
btu ad
it txh rici coo,
iner., prie,
ur It" nrjoCiP it
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the liatioo o
roo

fed
county for
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C
punco.oiorA
d the / /I°o
cis. gaylan 1° 000
luofo'
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tic ow A big
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tobiisbeen
I not a, end
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Fiien gb r
brov
voulabu v

t Of th,t
support. tbi,
Lis---fo'ssrov%
by tbde or! 0
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