The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

led to rely so confidently en the continoince of the
present terns of renewal that the result, paradoxical ae
it might sound, had been arrived at, that a twenty-one
year:' leave was often of the swine valve in the market
as the fee simple of the estate. Ia that cast: it would
be the proviece of the Comm ra
issieners to dete the die-
trice where in consequence of an invariable usage the
lease would be suffered to run out on one-third instead
of one-half of the entire. term. Property in houses did
not stand on the same footing as property in land; but
it. was proposed to place it in a nearly equivalent posi-
tion. From the deteriorating nature of hours property
it would be hardly feasible to make an addition as a re-
newed rent of half of the present value of tile property
at the termination of the lease; and, therefore, it vi.-,
proposed, with respect to house property, to give the
right of perpetual renewal on the present amount of the
fines, but to impose on the lessee an adAitional rent,
-- equal to half of the new right he would thus have
HOUSE OF LORDS, ,May 02. acquired, and so to divide the advantage as in other eases
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his stilt upon the Wool- in equal proportions between the lessor and lessee. But
sack at Five o'clock. there was one species of property which it was not pro-
PETITIONS. posed to put on the same footing as any of the others to
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition which he had referred, and that was the property in
from Newark against Papal aggressiot e. tithe-rent charges. It was proposed, with respect to
The Duke of ARGYLL presented several petitions tithe-rent charges, to let them run out. The Commis-
from places in Scotland to a similar purport. sioners were of opinion that that property stood in quite
Earl FORTESCUE presented several petitions from a different position from any other description of pro-
places in Devonshire against Papal Iggression; also a party, inasmuch as iu the cases of tithe-rent charges
petition from Barnstaple in favour of'. the Copyhold Ea- there had been no improvement in past times, and there
franchisement Bill. was no future opening for improvement. There was in
Lord STANLEY presented a pet ition against the that case no plea of lands being intermixed with other
Episcopal and Capitular Estates Mena gement Bill from freeholds; and in general there was no circumstance of
the Dean and Chapter of Wells (as we understood). association or attachment which connected a person with
PROPERTY-TAX MI ,L. a tithe-rent charge, or with property in land. With re-
On the motion of the Marquis of LA NSDOWNE this spect to manorial rights, he had to observe that they
could hardly be looked upon a •
Bill was read a third time and passed. s a very fitting ecclesiastical
EPISCOPAL AND C APITULe in ESTATES appanage. In that case it was proposed to let the leases
MANAGEMENT BIL L. run out, or to have them put up for immediate sale. Pro-
The Earl of CARLISLE, in moving the second read- visions were introduced for facilitating the enfranchise-
ing of this Bill, claimed their Lords! lips' indulgence. ment of copyholds ; and any money arising from sales,
The Bill was one of a most complicat ed nature, on a exchanges, or enfranchisements would he vested in the
subject to which he had not until rec eutly directed his Church Estate Commissioners ; first, for the purpose of
attention, and one the provisions of va, hich were sure to satisfying the exigencies of the Act; and next, for the
militate against the interests of powerful parties. purpose of being applied to the common fund for eccle-
siastical purposes. He had not yet made
He had, however, the encouragement tc 'know that it was any re-
oneference to the case of timber. There was, perhaps, no
which was unconnected with par: -.y politics, and he
hoped that after giving it a second re ading their Lord-
species of ecclesiastical property which suffered from
ships would consent to refer it to aSe le" Committee— the existing arrangements more than timber, for it fre-
(Hear, hear, from the Tore' benches> —carefully consti- quently happened that the lessee had no right to cut
tuted, when its provisions might be ma turely considered,
and that the lessor had no right to enter to cat. The con-
and he hoped that it would not De thought sequence was that the timber on the Church estates was
that by consenting to this sec oad reading any generally found in a very bad and wasteful condition.
peer would be pledged to any t:. an of the provi- It was therefore proposed that, on the payment of the
sions of the Bill, or to any princip /e, except that it proper value, the timber should be entirely reserved to
would be advisable to introduce a be' ;t er management of the lessee. There were in the Bill provisions for fecal-
Church property, so as to make it r lore profitable and tating arrangements between the lessor and the lessee,
more available for ecclesiastical purposes.—(Hear, with a view to promote any improvement which would
hear.) It was admitted that the pin 'sent management require an unusual outlay. But with respect to the ordi-
of that property was unsatisfac e try both to the nary valuations, they would be taken at the termination,
lessors and the lessees. It was ; stated, upon high not as at present, of every seven years, but at the termi-
authority, that these estates might be let on terms nation of every twenty-one years. He could not but
more advantageous both to the ('%! [lurch and to the think that that alteration would be productive of mate-
lessees. The Committee of the Hon se of Commons had rill benefit to the lessee. It would afford scope for the
reported that the system of fines 'et as equally unpro- improvement of property, without depriving the Church
fitable to the Church and to the le asee, and militated of any ultimate advantage which might accrue from that
against the improvement of the props rty. It had long been improvement. That provision rescued the Bill, in his
expected that some legislation woe tel take place on this opinion, from the charge of alienating the property of
subject, and this expectation had la aterially interfered the Church. He believed, on the contrary, that a greatly
with the formation of agreements 1 etween the Church increased income would be secured to the Church by
and the lessees. In 1849 a Commis ;ion had been ap- the measure, while it would give great scope for
pointed to consider the subject. In 1850 the Commis- the accomplishment of the most desirable Church
sioners, who were the Earl of Hari haerhY, the Dean of purposes. Those were the material provisions in the
Canterbury, the present Solicitor-Ger oral, Mr. Archbold, Bill with regard to the relations between the Church
and Mr. Jones, presented two reports , and the Bill now and the lessee, and he looked upon them as the
on their Lordships' table embodied tl ite recommendations most important portions of the measure. It cone-
of those two reports. The tenure of the property held Prised, however, other arrangements not wanting in
on lease from the Church, in which he believed there importance upon the general management of Church
had been very little variation, at lea tt since the days of estates. These arrangements were proposed chiefly
Queen Elizabeth, was by lease for th ne3 lives, renewable with the view of giving effect to the intention of the
at the termination of one life; or on lease for terms of Legislature that bishops, and deans, and chapters should
years, either for 21 years, renewable a t the end of every have fixed instead of fluctuating incomes. That inten-
-7 years; for 30 years, renewable at Val ) end of every 10 tion had hitherto been very imperfectly realised; fur
years; or for 40 years, renewable ae the expiration of some bishops had received less than had been intended
every 14 years. There were some can ea in which the for them, and others had received more. Tee estates
Church had the power of granting le saes for 90 years, would be vested in the Church Estate Commissioners,
but that was under special Acts of ,Parliament. The and the bishops would receive the fixed incomes allotted
rent received under these leases had :always been very to them by law, until under the operation of the Bill an
small in amount, and almost nominal', and the fines re- endowment of land equivalent to the incomes so fixed
ceived in renewal constituted the mi ii n portion of the could be settled on them. In order to provide for the
property of the Church. It appeare d that on leases fur immediate wants which would arise tinder the Bill, a
lives the system had always been to :,s sess the fines upon Power would be given to the Commissioners to borrow
a calculetion of 5 per cent. or upwa. tt Is, that is so as to money on debentures. He repeated what he had stated
secure to the lessee 5 per cent. or ups re n•ds on the money at the commencement of his address, that he submitted
he paid down as his fine. In the ca se of leases for the Bill in order that it might receive a fell and fair
terms of years, the intention had been: to give the lessee, consideration. If the Bill were read a second time he
when ho paid down his money, interest t as high as 7,8, proposed that it should be referred to a Select Cow-
or 9 per cent. In the most ordinary case, which was a inittee, by whom its details would be duly considered.
lease for 21 years, the custom of most dioceses had been It was not for him to presume to give advice to the Right
to make the fine equal to a year and a half's purchase of Rev. Prelates as to the course which they miget think
the annual value of the property tee be let. That was Proper to pursue upon that occasion; but he could not
giving the lessee 7 per cent. for his m ()nay. Their Lord- help stating his belief that it would be impossible to carry
ships were aware that the landed pro; :i, erty of this court- through Parliament as it was at present constituted, or
try generally sold for about 30 years' purchase, which as it was ever likely to be constituted, any measure for
enabling the heads of the Church to run cut their leases
gave a purchaser not much above 3 1 sir cent. Were he
to get 5 par cent. he would give or '.y 20 years' par-
and to enter into the full enjoyment of the whole of those
estates. Ile should say, too, that ho very much doubted,
chase; if 6 per cent. 16i years' pure iaase; and if 9 per
cent., only 11 years' purchase. It w could seem, there-
even if such a measure could be carried, whether it
fore, that there was ample oppor ;unity for making
would be fitting fur bishops and other ecclesiastical dig-
these estates reduce a much la rger income to the
nitaries to be involved in all the labour and difficulty of
p,
clergy, and at the same time to put the property on a letting and managing landed property. lie believed that
footing more conducive to the well-t nderstood interests the Church would receive a large increase of income
of the lessees. Of course, very diffe rent views had been from the passing of that measure; he did not like to
entertained as to the principle whirl i ought to regulate commit himself to any precise calculation as to what
the final adjustment of this species iif property. Some might be the amount of that increase; but he should
contended that it should be dealt with as though the state that persons peculiarly conversant with the subject
Church had the right and power to ru:a all the leases out, had estimated it at double or treble the sum at present
and at the end of subsisting terms to come into the full received. Under those circumstances ho would respect-
and undivided enjoyment of the whole, property. In the fully submit to the Right Rev. Prelates whether they
contrary view, it was assumed by (Abe era that the lessees could better consult for the promotion of the important
were entitled, if the aid of Parliament; were called in, to interests committed to their care, than by giving to the
a perpetual renewal upon the same terms as those to Bill a careful and courteous, but at the same time a most
which they had heretofore been accustomed. Let it be searching and scrutinising consideration. He felt con-
remembered in what position the parties respectively fident in the purity of the motives with which the Bill
stood. The bishops and other ecclesiastical dignitaries had been brought forward; he felt confident in the nature
could not afford to renew, for t hey had no other of the measure itself, and in the advantages it was cal-
means of subsistence. The lessee of ten could wait, and culated to produce; he felt confident, too, in the charac-
it was often his interest to do so, for the church digni- ter of those to whom he had the honour of submitting
tary might be in infirm health and not expected long to it; and he had, therefore, no hesitation in calling upon
remain in the enjoyment of his office, and might be their Lordships to give it a second reading.—(Bear.)
tempted to renew on disadvantageous terms; and their The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said he felt
Lordships would agree with him in thinking that no class much pained at finding himself compelled to cast any
of men ought to be less exposed to uncertainty and pre- disparagement upon a measure which had been proposed
cariousness of income than those who. filled places of by her Majesty's Government, with a view, he was sure,
ecclesiastical dignity. Therefore without the aid of Par- to promote the best interests of the Church, and which
lisuaent it would be impossible to effect an arrangement had been brought under their notice with so much eta-
which should materially increase 010 income of the dour and ability by the Noble Earl. He felt convinced
Church by taking away from bishops. or other ecclesi- that the Commissioners on whose report the Bill was
astical dignitaries the temptations which they now had founded had been animated by a sincere desire to ensure
to renew. The recommendation of th a Commission was the spiritual welfare of the community at large. But ho
3 compromise between the extra me views which was compelled by a paramount sense of duty to with-
he had stated, and this was the objet tof the Bill which hold his assent from what appeared to him to be the
he then had the honour of introduci 3ge
which the Com-
to their Lord- leading principle of the measure. He considered, like
ships. The main ground of compromi s
many of his Right Rev. Brethren around him, that the
mission recommended was to give to lie lessees a perpe-
Bill as it then stood would be tantamount to an alien-
ation of the remaining property of the Chu . rch They
tual right of renewal. This, he admitted, was a very
barge concession, but he did not see lin what other pos-their predecessors, and
I had received that property fren...
they felt bound to transmit it, if possible, to. their sum
si tie way they could materially improve the income of
cessors. The right of perpetua renewal which it was
sue Church than by making some terns with the lesseee,,
Proposed to give to the present lessees, appeared to him
who had many ways of making their wishes and just
claims felt in Parliament. It was proposed, therefore, to differ but little from the right of unlimited pos-
that leases should have a perpetual right of renewal. session, and the heads of the Church, by giving that
Jives. This had
Ile would deal first with leases for J
right, would, in his opinion, be abandoning the trust
always, upon good grounds, been thoug t a most objec-
committed to their charge. The Noble Earl had,
tie/table arrangement. It exposed both parties to the however, to a certain extent, relieved him from the
greatest amount of uncertainty, and rendered insurances uneasiness he should otherwise feel at finding that
necessary. It was therefore proposed to convert all measure read a second time, when he had told them he
leases for lives into leases for an equivalent term of considered that those Noble Lords who might support
years. There were special cases which might render the second reading would not be pledged to any thing
it undesirable to substitute a term of years in all cases of 1 more than a fair consideration of the whole of that sub-
this description of tenure, and power would therefore be i ject. If he could feel assured that that were the case, he
gto leave the tenure undisturbed in theao cases, iven to the Commissioners, whom it was proposed to ' should feel very considerably relieved. But he had been
oint
app , informed that, according to the usage of Parliament,
ouly substituting a term of years for the last life. Thus, when a measure which had been read a second time was
radually, all leases would be under the same category referred to a Select Committee, the Committee could
of leases for years. How were these to be dealt with? not deal with its principle, and was merely empowered
He would take the instance referred to by the Com- to consider the clauses by which that principle was to be
missioners by way of illustration. A farm or estate, carried into effect. Now, if that were the case, he should
worth 1001. a year, was to be let on lease for 21 years, feel it his duty to express his opposition to the second
and, at the expiration of the first seven years, the reading of the measure. lle pert*, ctly agreed with the
lessee would be entitled to have a lease for seven years Noble Earl that matters could not and ought not to re-
more to be added to the fourteen remaining unexpired. main as they were at present. He believed the exisiting
It had been ascertained that the septennial payment of a system was vicious in principle and objectionable in prsc•
fine of a year and a half's purchase, or 1501., was equi- tire, and that it had no other recornn3endation than that
lent as nearly as possible to a rent of 251, a year, to com- it had been in operation for a period of 300 years.
mend, as it was said, in prasenti. If the lessor should Nothing could give him greater pleasure than to support
choose to run his lease out he would for fourteen years a measure which would contribute to the improvement of
without any dimi-
receive no flue whatever, but at the end of fourteen years the management of Church property
would become entitled to the full enjoyment of 1001.; nation of that property; but he could not censientiously
and it had been ascertained that the payment of 1001. a feel that that was the character of the measure then
year to commence fourteen years hence, which was the under their consideration.
extreme eteht of the lessor, would be equivalent to 631. The Bishop of LONDON • said he hoped some Noble
Ice of the House would es-
computed year. The present receipts of the lessor might bo Lord acquainted with h
Chow far the
ee
ellouse would pledge itself to
computed to be equivalent to 25/. a year, and his extreme Plain to ilemot`heewßill by supporting its second reading.
rights to about 63/. a year, a difference which gave an thehh principle . t
b'ected to the principle ot giving to lessees
ample margin for adjustment; and the Commissioners id
the e entirelyr bt ef
°perpetual renewal. He believed that lessees
proposed to divide the advantages in the following wayhad nog such right equitably, legally, or morally. The
—the; henceforth the septennial fine should be paid to
lessees had no right to demand more then the value of
the Clutch calculated at the same rate of interest as at
their interest in the property. That interest might, he
presort, but only on a part of the annual finable value,
believed, be easily estimated, and to it, or to its
and at the end of the now existing term an annual rent
h d they any legitimate claim. Ho • . amount
0 only, a wailed it to b
should be thenceforth paid to the Church equal to th
understood that if ho assented to the second e
reading of
other half of the annual finable value. To apply the
the Bill he did not pledge himself to the
same instance which he had already given—instead of . .
1 laid down • 'that . adoption of the
renewal of PrillelP o in it upon subject. N
paying as now a fine of 150/. upon the r
more desirous than he was of seeing the ' ° one
was
his letoe, the lessee would have to pay 751. as a finehe
Church made available for the rem propel arty of the
upon half the annual value, and for the other half
but that oval of spiritual des-
years, titution; measure would diminish the
would lave to pay 501. at the end of fourteen
when his interest would has® expired. Other equivalent of the means of pro-
viding for that destitution in
by which future times. The heads of
arrangements were proposed as alternatives, the Church held their proper'
either a rent of smaller amount might commencefi at an
and rent country, and they had no rightforor to give up that property.
might be respectively increased or diminished, -
referred to a Select see the whole of that subject
whole night be resolved into an immediat© rent to co.in
1 whom it would be, Committee of their Lordships, by
mence et once. But the upshot of the whole transaction , .
annual value of the impartially considered. But he hoped their Lordships
was, tint the lessor, out of the whole .
wouldpause a
before would bo eauivalent to 441. re they sanctioned the principle of a
properte, would receive what i right to a perpetual
between 251., which renewal of leases of Church property.
a year, that is, just the precise mean_
and ' `the eDuke of RICHMOND said he thought that Bill
was equivalent to the present receipts of the. Church, !
extreme rights. He was much more against the lessees than against the lcs-
-651., which was equivalent to its .
be in making a SM. But he second reading
knew tin difficulty which there must was ready to assent to the
the result of th . that the
calculat on upon so nice a question,but of the. Select o measure on the distinct understanding . _
t might be stated thus—thet the Church In- 1 Committee would not be debarred from the right
arratigenen • • 'nto the whole
stead of running out the whole lease would practically , of instituting a full and fair Inquiry i
F 1 d
run out ;he leases only so far as half of the annual value I subject. The lessees of Church property in_ e,ng an
of the property was concerned; and insttad of renewing I wore not by any means placed in eo favourabL a ro-
Ireland. Tee Act
the fine at its present amount on the whole annual value, ! sition as their brother lessees in .
contained a clauto
it would renew, on half the annual value, half of the pre- 1 of Parliament in force in Ireland.
renewal -
scrip fire; and thus the Church would gain exactly one- 1 under which the lessees• could insist
to
nnvaeof
half of its extreme rights, and the lessee would come ' the leases. That was what ought
into ession of one-half of his extreme claims. It was in this country, and then they would not have had those
pees
proposed to employ the agency of the present Church constant discussions ueen that subject. There were
Bill to which he very rruch
Estate ..I,ommissioners, appointed by the Act of last see- many details of the oh-
Estate they ought '
sion, fot the purpose of ascertaining the precise rights of jetted; but lie thought that
theireons._not to refuse to
fine, or the proportion of the fine to the value of the pro- take the whole question into,,u consideration.
perty it each particular instance. They would also be I The Duke of BUCCLI. te said it appeared to him
di ni,-cr;e • who that those ecclesiasticalg i.._ . Were so deeply
invested with a further discretion. It appeared from I
! interested in that matter ought to be allowed to be
I the evidince taken upon the subject that there were cer-
heard by counsel against the Bill. He had himself
Min disricts, and more eepecially in the north of
I presented a petition the other day from the Dean and
England where, either from some extreme notion of an
Chapter of Westminster, praying that that privilege
old right or from invariable usage, the lessee had been 1

he proposed taking v. vo'e for 300,0001, Ehe 7a3
appointed in that hope, he would have to ask for un ad-
ditional vote.

Mr. HUME said his communications from the Cwe
led him to htlieve that the expense would be upwards of
1,000,0001.
Mr. ADDERLEY askod from what revenue the two
commissioners wouli be paid who had been sent out?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
proposed they should be paid by this country.
The nomination of the Committee: on the income-tax
was postponed till this day.
On the order of the day for considering the Lodging-
house; Bill,

Lord ASHLEY said he proposed referring it to a
Select Committee.

The other orders of the day were thFat disposed of, and
The House adjourned at 20 minutE,ll past Ono