The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-22 00:00:00

EVIDENCE ON THE FACTORY BILL.•

They were told that the recent disclosures in the House of
Commons respecting the factory system were not on oath.
Why, no, neither were the statements of the writers in
question on oath. In a Court of Justice an oath was the
condition for admitting testimony calling for punishment
on another, or for reward to the person making the oath.
But it was not necessary for every gentleman who stated
a fact on his own veracity, and who had no interest
one way or the other, to mike an affidavit of what he
asserted. Oh, but the evidence was ex parte. Why,
this was as if a man was to be knocked down in the
streets, and get his brains ahro,st beaten out, and upon ap-
pearing before a Mazistrate to make his complaint was told
that his evidence was ex parte. Thus, when they pro-
ceeded to develop the injuries of the factory system to the
health and morals of the infant population engaged in it,
they were told that their statements were ex parte. Yes,
and so were the twisted spines, the scrofulous diseases, the
affections of the lungs, and the numerous other maladies
engendered by the present factory system. When he (Mr.
CONDY) was very young, he used to think that sufficient
food and clothing, and a reasonable portion of air and
exercise, were necessary for health and comfort. He had
livid, however, to have his notions amended. He found
that evidence was given to prove that there was nothing
so healthful as a polluted atmosphere; that nothing con-
duced so much to strengthen the human frame as fourteen
hours' labour per day on all above seven years of age; and
that food was almost a superfluity.—Extract from a
striking speech of Mr. Canny, at Manchester.
FAMILY OF THE EX-KING OF FRANCE.-

Extract of a letter of 24th January :—" In whatever
chateau we may be placed, we must lay our account with
missing the ronzforts to which we became habituated dur-
ing our stay with you. You may judge of this when I
say, that in these matters the Austrians are as much be-
hind the French as the French are behind the English.
You, who have lived in Paris, can understand, by what
you found wanting in the French apartments, the degree
of absence of accommodation which we experience here.
The Imperial Chateau is perhaps worse furnished than
others, as it is not often occupied by its owner, but in it
they de not seem to know the use of curtains either for
beds or for windows ; there are ❑o carpets, nor chimneys,
nor mirrors, nor any of the many things with which your
rooms are filled. The furniture is principally made of
common white wood, sometimes with a little paint on it.
The best p'eces are of oak, but the fortis and style is far
from making up for the coarseness of the material. For
about a month we have had a temperature 10 to 12 deg.
below freezing (5 to 10 deg. Fahrenheit's scale) with a
clear sky and little wind.".—Scotsman.

ISLE OF WIGHT.—We have not yet heard
of any shipwrecks on our coasts during the dreadful gales
of the past week, but from the numb 'r of hats and great-
coats which have been picked up along the shore, near
Brook, it is strongly suspected that a sailing packet or
steamer must have foundered, and all hands perished.
Portsmo Oh Herald.

Missoußl.--The census of Missouri, as
recently taken by authority of the State, presents an ag-
gregate of 173,276 souls, of whom 32,164 are slaves.
The number of white males, we observe, exceeds that of the
white females by nearly 9,000 souls. —New York Paper.
MELANCHOLY DEATH OF CAPT. BOYLE
BY THE OVERTURNING OF A MAIL COACH.--The Cork
mid-day mail-coach, on entering Abbeyleix at a rapid rate
on Tuesday night last, came in contact with a stone fence,
which surrounds a tree at Mr. MoLLov's corner, and was
upset. Lights having been procured, Captain BOYLE,
one of the outside passengers, was discovered lying under
the body of the coach in an apparently senseless state; in
a short time after, being extricated, he faintly exclaimed
—" Oh, I will never see my wife and children again !" Dr.
BOX WELL was quickly in attendance, and had the unfortu-
nate gentleman removed on a bed to an adjacent house,
where, on examination, it was discovered that the upper and
lower jaws were fractured, the chest, back and collar bone
broken—the body was altogether crushed in a frightful
manner. After enduring great torture for near an hour, life
became extinct. An inquest was held in the court-house
before Mr. DELANY, Coroner, anil a respectable jury.
Lord DE VESCI and other magistrates were in attendance.
Several witnesses were examined, who deposed the fore-
going facts. The jury returned the following verdict:—
" We find that A. BOYLE, Esq., came by his death in
consequence of the upset of the Cork mail-coach, which
fell upon his body in the town of Abbeyleix, on the evening
of the 12th of February, 1833, occasioned by the furious
and imprudent driving of NICHOLAS BYRNE, the coach-
man and driver of PETER PURCELL, Esq., and Co., the
proprietors of said coach, and on which coach we find a
deodend of 50/. sterling." The ill-fated deceased resided
near Littleton, and was a magistrate of the county of Tip-
perary, and highly connected. lie was on his return from
Dublin to his now afflicted wife and 10 children.—Dublin
Freeman's Journal

UNITED AGES EXTRAORDINARY.—We
lead that " Methuselah lived nine hundred, sixty and nine
years, and he died." But since artificial refinements were
well known and much practised, the life of man has been
greatly contracted. Death, indeed, has sometimes spared
a Parr or a Jenkins, many years beyond the measure of
" threescore years and ten." He sometimes permits near
neighbours to enjoy a long life together; as in the small
village of Stonegrave, near Malton, where, until 1832,
lived five venerable old men and their wives, whose united
ages made Bbs years. But one of these ornaments, like
the patriarchs, sleepeth ; and his wife having left the vil-
lage, the remaining four men and their wives, whose united
ages make 670 years, are left to enjoy the society of five
of their neighbours, living in the same village, whose ages,
added to the same number of years, make 1,049. The
village of Stonegrave contains about thirty-four families,
and one hundred and thirty-six inhabitants.— York
Courant.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 21.

Earl GREY presented a petition from Hexham, pray-
ing for the abolition of slavery; also another petition
from some other place to the same effect ; also a petition
from Scotland, praying for the better observance of the
S thbath.

Lord TEYNHAM presented two petitions—one from
Wrotham, and the other from Higham Wycombe, both
in the county of Kent, praying for the abolition of tithes.
Lord FEVERS HAM presented a petition from York-
shire, praying that the provisions of the Beer Act might be
amended.

The Bishop of BA fH and WELLS presented a petition
from the city of Bath, praying for the better observance of
the S ibbath.

Lord DURHAM presented a petition from Durham,
Gateshead, and Stockton-upon-Tees, praying for the better
observance of the Sllibatli.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from a
congregation of Protestant Dissenters in Gloucester, pray-
ing for the abolition of slavery.
Lord SUFFIELD presented a petition from the Protest-
ant Dissenters of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, to the like effect.
Earl GREY brought in a Bill to provide for the more
administration of justice in Ireland, by changing
the venue in certain cases.—To be read a second time to-
marrow.

SUPPRESSION OF DISTURBANCES (IRELAND

BILL.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY brought up the report
of the Committee on the Irish Coercive Bill. Many of
the amendments made in the Committee were agreed to.
Earl GREY moved that a proviso be inserted at the
end of one of the clauses, to the effect, that Counsel for the
prisoners before the courtstnartial should have the right
to examine and cross-examine witnesses the same as in
courts of law. He thought this a most important security
to the prisoner, and be was also of opinion that it would
tend much to shorten the time occupied in the trials.
At present the prisoner had the right to put any
question his Counsel thought proper, but it had to be
put in writing before the President.
After a desultory conversation across the table, in which
the J)uke of Cumberland, the Lord Chancellor, the Earls
Grey and Harrowby, Viscount Beresford, and Lord Ellen-
borough, took part, the amendment was agreed to.

After some observations from the Earl of LONGFORD,
several clauses were agreed to, with a few verbal amend-
ments.

Ball GREY proposed a clause for the prevention of
signals calling tumultuous assemblies together, mak..
log it a misdemeanor to do so which was cognizable by
the courtamlrtial in the proclaimed districts, and the com-
mon law courts in other parts.
After a words from the Earl of HARROWBY, the
clause was agreed to.

The other amendments were then agreed to, and the
Bill ordered to be printed, and read a third time to-mor-
row.—The House then sojourned.

II OUSE OF COMMONS, Fl RBUIRy 21.

Mr. DIVETT brought in a Bill to establish Water
Works at Exeter, which was read a first time.
On the motion of Mr. Ald. WOOD, a new writ was
ordered for the city of London, in the room of Mr. Ald.
Wai th man, deceased.
Mr. GILLON presented a petition from Falkirk
against nocturnal
Colonel BUTLER presented two petitions from parishes
in Kilkenny, praying for a redress of grievances, complain-
ing of grand jury jobbing, and praying for a total abolition
of tithes and church cess, and for the restoration of do-
mestic legislation.
Mr. B. THOMPSON presented two petitions from
Burlington against negro slavery.
Mr. BENETT presented a petition from the inhahi-

tants of Liverpool, signed by upwards of 3,000 person:
complaining of the manner in which the last electio❑ m
Liverpool was conducted, and praying the House to dis-
franchise the freemen of the borough. The petitioners
stated, that the system of bribery which had been carried
on at Liverpool had increased rather than diminished, and
they, therefore, despaired of the probability of any im-
provement in the election of Members of Parliament,
or the Chief Magistrate of the Borough.—(Hear.)
The petitioners had believed that the Reform Bill would
have remedied that evil ; but they had now disco-
vered t hat it existed as bis4l as ever. The peti-
tioners were formerly opposed to the Bill which
he had introduced ; but now they were desirous of
having it introduced. He was not acquainted with
many of the 3,000 petitioners, but he bad been told by
persons who knew them, that some of then, were the most
respectable inhabitants and merchants of the town, and their
prayer was entitled to the serious consideration of the House.
He had in two successive Parliarsients brought forward his
Bill to disfranchise the freemen of Liverpool, but the dis-
solution of Parliament prevented its being carried. When
he brought it forward, he stated from information that he
had received, that upwards of 3,000 freemen had been
bribed with money. He could now state that fact with
mere confidence, because he had it from the parties
themselves, and he knew that the books with the names
of the persons could be produced. If the House shou'd
receive the petition, he intended to give notice that he
would move for a Select Committee to take it into consi-
deration, in the hope that the Committee would give such
a report as would enable him to carry through a Bill to
disfranchise the freemen, and thereby purify the elections
in that borough.
The petition, which prayed for the introduction of a
Bill to disfranchise the burgesses of Liverpool, and that
evidence might be received at the bar of the House in
proof of its allegations, was then read.

Lord SANDON did not rise for the purpose of discuss-
ing all the allegations in the petition, because the proper
time would be when his Hon. Friend (Mr. Benett) brought
forward his motion, but he could not help observing upon
two or three topics. The subject was certainly a stale one,
for three elections bad passed without complaint. Re-
garding the third election, the disappointed party had
raised large sums of money to prosecute a petition
against the return ; but, although they had collected
the money, they shrunk from the petition for fear
of its being declared frivolous and vexatious ; and, instead
of going before a judicial tribunal, they went before
a political one, where no parry was examined upon
oath, and from which they could attack those whom
they originally endeavoured to corrupt.—(Hear.) The
original corruption was practised by the party who for-
warded the present petition, and who, being foiled in their
endeavours to corrupt them, turned round upon them,
and endeavoured to get them disfranchised. The peti-
tion against the last return was not presented solely
front want of proof. lie denied the corruption that was
stated to exist among the freemen, and he was convinced
that no corruption whatever was practised at the last
election. He did not deny but there might be such a
gift as a glass of ale; but that any Member of
the Committee, or any authorized agent, either bribed or
treated, he most distinctly denied. He was convinced
that no corruption had been practised in Liverpool since
the notorious case alluded to so frequently by the Hon.
Member (Mr. Benett). If correction was the object of the
petitioners, that was accomplished from the fact of three
unimpeached elections having since occurred. The peti-
tioners stated that if the Reformat Bill had done its work

it would have prevented corruption ; but whit they meant
by its doing its work he did not know, unless it was meant
to give to the petitioners the power of carrying the elec-
tion of their candidate.—(Laughter.)
Mr. WASON said the Noble Lord commenced
his speech by deprecating al! discussion, and yet, dur-
ing the time he had addressed the House, he had
favoured them with assertions which he no doubt
believed to be true. He (Mr. Wason), however, could
not on his conscience believe they were true. The
Chief Magistrate of Liverpool had for many years
been elected by means of bribery.—(Lord Sandon—
" Not of late years.") In answer to that remark, he
would only say, that of late years the money had been
wanting to bribe the electors.—(" Oh, oh," from Lord
Sandon.) The Noble Lord might exclaim," Oh, Oh,"
but it was only at contested elections that bribery was
considered necessary, and at the last contested election for
mayor it cost the successful candidate upwards of 8,0001.
(Hear, hear.) Would the House place the allegations of
the Noble Lord in opposition to the petition of
3,000 inhabitants of Liverpool, who all believed that
their Chief Magistrate was elected by bribery and corrup-
tion ? The Hon. Member, in allusion to the observation
of the Noble Lord, that the petitioners had shrunk from
prosecuting cases of bribery at the last election for fear
of having their petition declared frivolous and vexatious,
said the Noble Lord might have ascertained how many
petitions had been declared frivolous and vexatious since
the Grenville Act passed. He (Mr. Wason) believed there
were not more than four or five. The petitioners had,
from a regard to the best interests of the town, forborne
to petition against the Noble Lord's return, and the Noble
Lord would probably not have made such au assertion if
the 14 days allowed for the reception of election peti-
tions bad not expired. lie (Mr. Wason) would,
however, state one or two Lets connected with the
last election. Many drunken men were carried on the
box and carriage of the Noble Lord, whe was himself
inside—(Laughter)—and at one of the poll-booths the
deputy returning officer refuted to recei►e the voter,

t 1 e voters having presented themselves in such a state of
beastly intoxicatiou.—( Hear, hear. ) The opposing can-
didate having. had a majority of 600 o❑ the first day, he
should like to know bow the Noble Lord could account
for having been elected by a majority of 145. The Hon.
Member concluded by supporting the prayer of the petition,
which he said only called for inquiry—an inquiry into
one of the most flagrant instances of corruption that ever
took place ; and he was sure that no two gentlemen in the
House would refuse it.
Mr. GLADSTONE, who spoke under the gallery, and
was almost entirely inaudible in the gallery, was understood
to say that the Reform Bill, which boasted a cure
for all political evils, had not had the effect
;n Liverpool which had been anticip tied. He could say,
however, that no corrupt influence had been used either
by the Noble Lord (Sandon), or by those who had sup-
ported him in the late election.
Mr. WARBURTON said no attempt was made to in-
sist that the Noble Lord had been guilty of corrupt in-
fluence. All that the petitioners sought for was, generally,
for an inquiry into undue practises which had taken place
during the late election for Liverpool. As he (Mr.
Warburton) understood the Hon. Member who spoke last,
he stated that he could solemnly declare that no undoe
practises fpul taken place during the late election for Liver-
pool on the part either of the Noble Lord or of those who
supported him.
Mr. GLADSTONE said such was his decided belief.

Mr. \VARBURTON asked how it was possible, where
there were two great parties opposed to one another, as
at Liverpool, that any individual whatever could make a
positive asseveration to that effect ? Was it not a fit sub-
ject of inquiry, whether individual voters had been in-
fluenced by other prraans to give their vote, not according
to their consciences, but according as they were influenced
by money or by promises to vote for either one or another ?
Why should there not be an inquiry, with a view to ascer-
tain whether the electors themselves had not been corrupt ?
\Vhe❑ a petition containing an allegation of this kind carve
before the House, begging for inquiry, he considered it
was their duty to institute it.
Mr. BENETT explained ; and the petition was ordered
to lie on the table, the sessional order as to printing
petitions, not yet having been finally agreed to.
Lord SANDON said a few words, which were inaudi
ble in the eallery.
Mr. BENETT gave notice that on Tuesday next he
would move for the appointment of a Select Committee,
to inquire into the matters complained of in the petition,
and to make their report to that House.
Lord SANDON said that it would be a very great
convenience, if the Hon. Member would postpone his
motion for a few days longer. It would then be seen
that there was no ground for supposing that the whole
respectability of Liverpool were ranged on one side.
Mr. BENETT consented to postpone his notice of mo-
tion for Thursday.
Mr. V. SMITH moved that the Speaker do issue his
warrant for a new writ to elect a Mem, er for the Northern
Division of Northamptonshire, in the room of Lord
Milton, become Earl Fitz,vi?liam.—Ordered.
Mr. WYNNE ELLIS presented a petition from Leices-
ter iu favour of the repeal of the corn laws.—Laid on the
table.

Mr. MATHIAS ATTWOOD rose to present a peti-
tion from the Merchant Tailors' Company, complaining
of a perversion of the right of petition, and praying
the House to rescind a reso'ution agreed to last Mon-
day respecting the Committee on municipal corpora-
tions. The petitioners thought, and he thought,
that the powers given to that Committee were too great,
and, at any rate, would only be sanctioned after mature
deliberation, and an express vote of that House, The
abuse of the right of petition, of which the petition-
ers complained, was in a single individual having
presented a petition to that House, containing the
grossest calumnies against them, charging them with
having appropriated the corporate funds to their own use,
and abused the trusts reposed in them in almost every
particular. It was clear that if the petitions of indivi-
duals, or small bodies of individuals, were allowed to
occupy any large portion of the public rime, that fair
portion of it which ought to be given to the com-
plaints of great bodies of individuals must be consi-
derably curtailed. Some limit ought, the petitioners
thought, to be applied to the abuse of the power of peti-
tioning. As there were many magistrates of the city of
London in the House—many gentlemen connected
with commercial affairs—if they would take the
trouble of looking it this petition they would

find that a petition more respectably signed could not be
presented to the House. The petitioners felt it due
to themselves and to the House to place on the
table a denial of that petition which had been
laid on the table—a petition as unfounded in fact as
it was malignant and groundless. The petition was or-
dered to be brought up.
Mr. HILL said he was the Member who had presented
the petition which bad been so much complained of, and
hich the Hon. Member who had just sat down had
thought proper to censure him so severely in respect of.
When the Hon. Member thought fit even to insinuate
that he (Mr. H.) had wilfully- secreted part of the peti-
tion from the attention of the House, and which he said
had been presented in his absence, he might have
had the candour to inform the House that he
(;11r. H.) had sent a copy of the petition to the Hon.
Member—that lie hail informed hint when he inteniii.d
to present it—that he was in a condition to have presented
it on Friday last, his name having stood at the head of
the paper on that day, but he had postponed it from
that day, at the request of the Honourable Member,
that he might have an opportunity of being in the
' House when it was presented, to make any observations on
the nature of the petition which he thiiught fit.--(Cbeers.)
Under these circumstances, he could not but consider the
Hon. Member had made a most unjust attack on his
character.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member had spoken in very
general terms of the petition ; and complained that nothing
had been stated of it but some general personal allegations.
He (Mr. Hill) had not thought proper to go into the par-
ticular charges of the petition, though there were many,
and he would now state one of them.—(Hear, hear.)
The petition stated, that the Merchant Tailors'
Company were in possession of considerable funds
for charitable purposes, which they did not duly apply, and
the petitioner gave his reasons for his statement. There
was one particular bequest, made to them in the reign of
Elizabeth, of 51. a-year, to be paid to the poor. The
plersospertyw
than thhii:t4 then
etenhousyielded the
e,s_(llear,
hear,
consisted
.r,hear)_ ofofthro
that
property the Merchant Tailors' Company were in the con-
tinual receipt of the rents, and yet they only gave the
miserable pittance of 51. a-year to the poor.—(Hear.)
He (Mr. Hill) had submitted that this was a municipal
corporation—(Hear)--and that the petition, therefore, was
undoubtedly a very proper petition to be referred to the
Committee appointed to inquire into the state ot muni-
cipal corporations.—(Cheers.) This was one of the
trading companies of the city of London. It was true, it
had, as the Hon. and Learned Member had said, very
little now to do with trading, but it had much

to do with the government of the city—(Hear, hear)—
and it was because there was to he an inquiry into the
state of the Corporation of the city of London with a view
to a Reform, and feeling that that inquiry and Reform
never could be complete, without an inquiry into this
trading corporation, that he had thought it right
to present this petition to the House.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member well knew that no person could enjoy
any of the privileges belonging to the city of London
without he was a member of one of those trading com-
panies. It was therefore important to see what was the
state of the Mercers' Company. For that purpose lie would
call the attention of the House to a statement, by which it
appeared that within the last twenty years the companv
had increased their fines for admission from thirty guineas
to 801., and when it was asked what had become of their
surplus money, they refused even to give informatio❑ upon
the subject to their own members. They had even been
prevented from meeting in their own hall---(Hear, hear)
—and bad been treated as trespassers and rioters by the
Hen. Member, who was the Master of the Company.

The Honourable Member had stated that he (Mr.
Hill) was perfectly acquainted with the per-
son from whom he had presented the pe'ition. He
begged most positively to deny that statement. The
course taken by the Hon. Member was not at all calcu-
lated to make the House believe that the charges contained

T
in the petpetition,v7hich—he— -(11r. Hill) presented,twheere
peiltlitiefonuetrisdedp.r—ave(dHe?ar, hoenarly.)
foN,V. haintqNu7sy." that
Hon. Member had stated that all the charges were false,
the
lc::
f:
aesi tosbedser, master,ll],ii allow
and yet, instead of agreeing to inquiry, he had taken dis-
tinctions between trading and municipal corporations for
the purpose of preventing inquiry and investigations into
charges which ke had stated to be wholly with-
out foundation. Such having . been the conduct
of the Mercers' Company, the. petitioners had applied to
the Court of King's Bench for a mandamus, ordering
l vi
cotheood'evuhilahadkdyi tsn:hces
vveswhnua'rt opposed,rtel
bai eetsthtuheepereee,Het
ispottei
ihuu.'
01 asb'netil
petitioner,
' wen't. inspection
applica-
tion,
nahutpnrdl:guidl
prsi ct:h.eaa°i
trusted
their documents. The Honourable Member, in his
not failed in any duty that he owed to
Ittchitht:eaantr,Ha character of b a
c.,
sincerity that he had not done so wilfully.—(Cheers.)
tv,,Aulidr..Cyo, BthßaEt TheT
vate, to be as good as that of the Warden of the Merchant

he
".
ar
Mr. Ai-Two:3.D wished to knoknoll'whethe' :bd.:
an I
to the regulation which had been adopted 85 t
Tailors'
, Company
ii Ile wasi makerls for
and n his
is
issuer tl a'le
so
I ha
0
her of times an Hon. Member should have 1D:00;
tunity of addressing the House, he could be alre
to speak upon the present petition
Af'er a few words from Lord ALT 11011" tbV
lit
The SPEAKER said it was very de"l3;cote)
point should be thoroughly understood. la•Js
his (the Speaker's) view of it, it stood thus. es
Member, in presenting petition, would haceeeatie!,
tunity of speaking twice, first on the tibt
the petition be brought tip. The question tr;ro,t
thin do lie upon the table would then be_ the d
course. If that were a matter of course, the'
‘,.
it
dual who presen'ed the petition might lie b ciis
would have an opportunity of answering ate
the observations that had been made. sods
Mr. ATTWOOD said, he had been entire ;erg t(
misrepresented, when he was stated to he a,' or
quiry. The ground on which he complaineochejt
the petitioner calumniated those parties whee
were affscted by the petition in a way which f
thh e Y :
sit
poriuni!y of meeting. It contained charges oit o
cious character against the members of the collie
000,
to the right of the petitioner to interfere with:
po,itl'
meat of the funds of the society, that had b
ins Wowed by a court of law. He protestiloo
Hon. and Learned Member, after the case he
judicated before the legitimate tribunal in the. bad
King's Bench, introducing it, because his client
unfortunate, to the attention of that House. tiole
Mr. HILL said, that if he had been at the e 0"
feed counsel of the party, he would not have Pr'
petition. Wbr
Mr. ATTWOOD continued, be did not °Seri°
the petit oners hi.d justly or unjustly bee° pool
his right, hut the Court of Law had dfeb,P
The Hon. Member proceeded to refute some ot t, -of
made against the Merchant Tailors' Company'cnetsr
tition of which he complained, and said that the metth
so far from fearing inquiry, courted it. Ther,tioS(`
Tailors' Company was not a municipal corn- sill°
conferred:no corporation privileges, and, thereor',,o
the vague powers of the Committee -.01;
might be made to reach them, they could 0,
so. He repeated, however, that the ISIerclo;00'
Company, being conscious of nothing but the
right conduct and motives, courted inquiry. said,
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL o.'„ of
slid not intend to enter into the discussghZeia,
merits of the petition immediately before b;ei,sec
there was a point raisrssi by it to which bepieit''
direct the particular attention of his MajestY?, ,eette
and it was one upon which he was sure the 00-03it0:.
think itself entitled to a positive answer. The Ceigithetl
inquire into municipal corporations, appoillte%tere;
night, was one of the most important to the 3- 1'
the country he had ever known.—(Kea dig'
The formation of that Committee he would n°trj.,:
but he could not help saying that he thought the tess'
of Members might have been different from what p 01(
(Hear, hear.) He knew not but that tebetser°
possessed by that Committee, might turn out pt
ei
inquisitorial nature; but whatever the o'7° e o
powers was, he trusted that the gen"- br°"
exercised them, would investigate the soatter'...4l,,
before them with calmness and impartialitY'
tieultri
hear.) The question he wished to put more 14r to
to his Majesty's Ministers, and espteiellY
Noble Lord opposite, wts this, whether chstC
l 6r.
appointment of that Committee, it was mien 01.;
questions relating to the trading coneern',loiir
country should be entered into by the lie Of
genuity
2ok fLT
There was no judging from the %Ord! t tbf
Lord
appointment, for it was impossible to say
ll o professionallpsaidinehne
hmaidghttac,connsaidcgro,";rtut:
limits of the duties of the Conunittee.--(ge7di.
trouble in having the Committee COn'''
such a mixture of Honourable j
Gentletnee•pq
snake it conversant with the nature of all theet cud
that could possibly come before it. With reeri ooti)
question that had been put to him, -be I*-;t
slightest intention in movie for that Cotnie-tgeltr
„„ shsl
the considerationofg
any trading compete; 'lA-
introduced to its notice.—(Hear, hear.) Thefil, /4
to be instituted by it were to be ee°- of
municipal corporations, and to the constitution 'lie?
corporations, as regarded the general rights of tirt
composing them. He did not, therefore, thte'tileintS
be of any utility for the Hon. and Learned tje?se 14t
move that the petition which had given ri
discussion should be referred to this Consinittee.l,l4
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said there was a 0 of
which, within a fraction, no less than a nitiL':Pr
public money had been expended, to which thus,
petition might he referred with propriety, be *-6
Charity Commissioners. The Charity
had been in • •
existence since 1818 ; it
not less than :45 volumes of reports, but
ceediogly ineffictual in producing henel
—(Flear, hear, hear.)* Be had nu doi
inquiries were instituted into these trad
'ions the greatest good would accrue.--C
instance, to the Company of which he W'
member, three houses were left on London
centuries ago, producing a rental of 61. a year,
directed to be distributed in charcoal
The 61. had regularly been distributed. A
ago this property was particularly wa'
purposes of the new London Bridge, an'
sold for 1,700/. The information was

,~~

the Company, claiming the whole of the
well as the accumulated principal and
and rather than fritter away the whole in
Chancery, the Company had compromised th,
by paying 10,0001. to erect alms-houses. a
Member believed him who bad complained on
to be a Master Girdler instead of the Master o,
he had, no doubt be would have come forty,
occasion also, and complained loudly of the
being compelled to do justice to the p00r..--(1
Sir ROBERT PEEL submitted to the
(Althorp) whether it would not be better to
order of reference, as it appeared they bad refer
titan to a tribunal that could not take cow
It was probable that other persons, believing
j et would be referred to the same Committee,
other petitions, and therefore, for the sake of
rity of their proceedings, it would be better
order, and to have it altered. With 0
abuse of charities, they could be better jug'
Lre the Court of King's Bench—a more
bunal than that House was.
The SPEAKER said, if it were true that
tee could not take cognizance of the I
House had done two things—they had sent 0
an incompetent tribunal, and they parted Wt
their own hands. If that were so, the Hoer
seind the order, or have it laid on the table, '
it as they thought fit.
Mr. HUME thought the question ought
dere(' with respect to its effect upon represt
teat it should not be divided merely bet
cipal and trading corporations. He did
whether the Merchant Tailors' Company was
or a trading company, but he knew that they
pleased, admit a thousand livarytnen into the ce
a day, and that, affecting as it did the right of
tion, it ought to be considered a municipal
his opinion, therefore, he thought the Conami
power of dealing with the petition.
Lord ALTHORPsaid that what he bad
was, that he did nut conceive the
jurisdiction over any other titan municipal
but he did not—because he could not.---s'
_ _

theupoAnletrheilti apnuti
,Tai )
tiileo r' washsa:i a
not
g municipali
yenap o
si t
icover po
ol::
Alr. O'CONNELLu,ouledhave s thought the best plan
the Law Officers
Buti i ot
rn
was alleged with
that charities
h
, taoe
e com ta
ptaney h
031
inquire
nothingor at
not. on a
I:
ed,
the
jto
was a municipal corporationt
t
it..idir g C
men, had a right of electing Members °I:
before the .
Reform Act, and that still it ex,
a
mitten
e•,ce in the same way in the elections t-ii'
Aldermen, Recorder, &c. If so, they had t"')1
tions, and then they would come within
order. ,,,,, k 4
the ' ti • `.hi,
Mr. ALEXANDER BARING agreed in ,
1 the to 444 'ti
'4lti '4
tion which had been most properly drawn dY to th tk t
Lord. The Committee had been appointed t ,r,tttil tr,
~ na `,ke tlo
into the municipal corporations, but it "la-
th, ' "e feat
powered, as it should not be, to inquire into
which
i'),,,a• rates Pobt, 4
ties of those bodies, or the manner i" bstl ~ii thre of t,t'i
dealt with it. lf, indeed, this latter power 3 'Yetteti t,),,N
granted to them, it would hive been establishing 9/04),
.41
theilt
crous tyranny which it was important to rei-si'td•ifficoltfytetbeotilb,trar.
part he felt I.o.—(Hear.) There was this aoter c 110' (°tiilt 4 titi'
the petition did not respect the municipal char
lainej
rt, l ry:ai
Merchant Tailors' Company, it only cowl! „roe 10 i;sl N
they had made some improper use of theirni of
of: i; lqi it
—(Hear, hear.) This was the gravatce be 0, ,N. ill
petition—the mal-appropriation of funds.---(W..3,,r'0•4 atilt,,Z4):l h
With that question the Cominitt, e had nothing r:A. TP_?, Nitt, 1,4 i h
(Mr. B. )thought that the order should be res.olo_ere Took
PttiqZ
the tt
were originally trading corporations, but uchicb
ov!Loci'
merely bodies holding property, with which thy,
L

ety,
i • Cdit3-ditte t'ttt"t
it hadk4,!aQtiii, te e.
'ft%
it had V
beneficial ' the
doubt to;f0, ti
trading 6, Tr
—( fiedr. 0111 hat-
Le wit* httli iet 4t o,lkr Pea,
dent
ndon 13ridr tO 14e1)4
abich ,tare
t year, - poor that e
al to theteodc th
A fey'
wanted -ler oil tt4ttl,N,
and at'kt!Y:4
vv filefieels 2 tt:%,
the pro c. ter/ rlptil 411 ',et
and If' (Id tti 'uet
coo, € tl4 e.
in t cotiO of 41 .4
d the pr°,„ fitfr th, ti,ia
t 001.14
d on thiiioefe;V:ll,grie"4tl tetry
er of the
forward, It-iee irel4', %II,: 141
the toles) P;0;q th:re
--(Id
Che I,or',,ltatt to
the Noble. j tti/ th,
er to re°e,.l°9€lr thfc4klatztkt,
referred the of it'll t;'t
tijotoce et, 44 Pt, eti,
tbe 'l 14: tip'
ag th't ~id 01, ,th„' to I
tree, , teor
eof the 7,ol'ti,'t th
;ter to resrle otu.ktt tail cor,
i),O e
I regard 0 Vir
' oil 0 '4
Inqutr h 4 pt for p,
cooete qrl 1:4,1
e ,034ett
bthe
e Cow tie 'lt h,e "et,
hat t 17rt 1110
a petit ion, 0,41 the Yed
t the Pe.°oBPle At0t,"46.11°1
with lobi i:it,:rm•:l) 41
Howe coali in ~.14461411e,
Ile, aoa tilttaijt
IF trod
G fro,
) Petao
tb he
art:e;:tste:ta era aa,
rit:ao:
otriet
b,:e ,G°l:t
ley cor11,(1' pcflt:e :1! tt,tl
e „Delta' ,r Qa
It of rePf!le, 110. 4l/41141,
CorPor'ghl°ol Iheg: 4,lt4tai,"Y
nmittee ntt 4t
iief`l4tj'i littv In
ad ~tat ",,e, vit,t4l)l.i,el h'd
cmoot 6001,,9
,al CORP
for t
--state, 'Co,. 1101'6Ae
nl
Narao)ll
,;13.24;0.,,tf
op,olortid be tqltilf et41:11
of
lan Wit' Nt4l
Ole f'Cti' 1414 tt'‘,Stt; t
f it ol' °cotOdrd, afttYtnit 31
lied, ti'e ,Aiok4k I I
to de .0441 hi: 'lot!'
ta lived IeIPWi 04,
of Parl'°•ll,''ar'Y
exercised 'I
she( nib le 4t4r crop
)8 for ► (Om (If rte
muoicir of th tt.t1,11,,
;he ter 00
the diestiki he 41'e °. ak
IN ifir
n by the
to . *4, 444141
Jai rit'°l, ttil
nted € tlh, „
was r°,,lirrr "ura th‘tri
lto the Pr or'ed
jgekte 10
L'"ar r": P''t.t't 4
in •
• ' or

~„etr
Ahe Heertlare to do than with the • t-of v Ite individuals.
proper private er
wof h't".
,tr labou:ragwilht Nokle Lord had cast upon tire Commi.tee
hether,
A to t",f. ci Landon c" Most occupy two years. The Corporation
yte. a-, the %sin
u. alone must occupy several weeks. Either, then,
d bay 4,4411,7 y he
nude hastily,
gild be ail," h wor no progress would be
subient.,, would enable the House to legislate upon t' e
Afr• year.
t)flipani:vAßßUßTON sail that it was clear those
oilers a nu Inneer traded and exercised all the pri-
If the cent' duties of provincial municipal Corporations..
ilinrltat:intnittee would inquire into their transactions, the
I.n obtained obtained with respect to the Corporation of
the 4,01 be most imperfoct. At any rate, he hoped
4016. talon of the House would nothe rescinded without
,
ATAW formed , said that the Committee was not fairly
sr,,a;iit 'nr six-sevenths of them held their hands up
the ,e°ePorationt. These were the Irish Members
tele"' ittnittee, and six of them had pledged them.
one' hilt? i,tinst all corporate privileges, and only
eated rielf• who wished to correct al:usee, but preserve
rl'Pointmghb..--(Cheers.) He regretted he bad been
An t';'' a member of the Committee.
tras "N. 141:arata defended the Committee, which, he
Sir R' „‘vould impartially discharge its duty.
Pireeas sYYYAN said no intimation had yet been
t() what the Committee was to report upon. He
elf toy to whit
whether the Committee was to confine
reesd auPuintirig out abuses, or whether it was to recom•
4'ittee }' change in the corporation system. The Corn-
s t
(7,nuld not have thee
power to examine the muni-
, a corporation. A °lt' p
,teeti Up,BER CROMBY said, if there were any gentle-
Nrontin the Committee whose opinions went to the
te. '';11 of all corporations, he certainly was not one of
flteridelna thought that municipal corporations were
Ihb the
cotito promote peace, order, and good government
e ntrY, and, if those objects could be forwarded
ne,t, onetitutional change in the system of corpora-
. votiriat ce House would be only doing its duty in endea-
to the tei accomplish so important a task. With respect
tetee,tition, it would certainly he absurd to suppose
that
"tnniittee could examine all the accounts of a]
the dittrationa in England, Scotland, and Ireland ; but
aic.ultY that he felt was, lest the examination of the
I:lla.'tero till" of London might be impeded, if it were
tOr 4tiat the Committee had no power to examine into
tttcnkil-el Corporations.l
rstreso ,sPERCEVAL complained of the disproportion
aa,ttitt`ue Irish Members of different sentiments on the
7,Pes,cie'---,0 large a majority heing those who were
I;h„.,t° Ro any length in the destruction of corpora-
..-"uer the name of improvement.
Petition
AT, was laid on the table.
-regeind gaveOOD notice that he should to-morrow
lye the orr.
tA,ELECTION PETITIONS.
tlrdeouts "'NEB. intimated, that in the cases of the
4so nue election and the Southampton election more
thirdfor 4,tition had been presented, which had been
tbtks
deco
days. It would be necessary to alter
10f e decn of one Committee might neutralise
aaothe
kw. L,r Upon the same election.
''Cre fin th4.HORP gave notice that he would submit a
'uliect this day.
Fikit% SLA PUBLIC HEAL fH.
tf yet C',fn "EY rose for the purpose of moving that a
to lettirin Nittee be appointed to consider the best means
rho,,, forg o Pen places in the neighbourhood of great
fOl the tithe healthful exercise of the p,;pulation. To
toyer 4dition of the population of the country at
trio Ptriod
s, and at the present time, he should read
et 4p, et' from the population returns. These
t4' that d •
test. Y the iduring the first ten years of the present
qtei,'iltisi„"rease of the population had been .15,4 per
ith3ttielg the second ten years 171 per cent., and
in4se heeri ast
ten ears—namely, from 1821 to 1531
at again 151 per cent. The increase in the
Peo,teent cne during the same three periods, had been
111444tr0
,"5 for the first ten years, 21 per cent. for the
lielhtt:telie; 49, and 20 per cent. for the last ten years.
Ye. e ter, during the same three periods, the increase
rai in the
;ask 0 proportion of 22 per cent. fur the first ten
is
tl for that cent. for the second ten yea's, and 47 per
toOtly tei last ten years. An increase had taken place
Ilet4llkiitie Same proportion in all the populous
ere yea in the kingdom, so, that taking the
4.4 15 r„nB from 1800 to 1831, there was an in-
elaoPer cu'4. enuntiea of 30 per cent., in the metropolis
t4tvb4 Dtte„4t*, in ten of the largest manufacturing towns
tofflet', and in three of the Lieges' manufacturing
tLe ° Per cent. At the same time it was gratify-
); Y th. the be n chances of life were better now than
taitei:i(leatte4 formerly. From 1700 to 1780, the ave-
41C o was lin37 : from 1780 to 1790, it was
"' 1790 to 1810, it was 1 in 54 ; and from
9, it was lin 60. All this had been the
Oared habits of living, and improvements in
id science. From these fan's the most im.
might be drawn. Allowing for the
nation of several large classes of the corn-
Peasantry of the South of England, for in-
' hand-loom weavers—the chances of life
than formerly. Then we came to this
sin the fifteen years that had elapsed
there had been an increase of twenty-
,in the population of the country ; and,
init., there had been a great improve-
health. It had always been held
of the population and the in-
at the same time, gave a proof of the
,!sponding degree, of the capital of the
rout saying one word of the decrease of
the peace, there would be a relief afforded,
Collected would be spread over a larger
should now state the alteration which
in the relative situations of the different
'ntrY. One-third of the working population
'ad been employed at the beginning of the
in manufactures, and two-thirds in
4.• At the present moment those pro-
exactly reversed ; and yet, at the same
'le, the health of the population had been
'ing shown the increase in these manufac-
general!y, he should now say one word as
numbers in the towns themselves. At
than
working people had more exercise in
'tan at present. Many of them, such as
'er,, formerly lived at a distance from their
St now their labours had been changed for
Power-loom; so that 100 or 200 of them
12regated together. Not only ha that
ace, but persons were taken at an earlier
‘; and without advert" -g at large to the
actory Employment, he might mention
', some of them under ten years of age,
1.10"6 hours a day. To such persons he
"e ought to afford the means of healthful
'e day of rest arrived. At present they
He should proceed to refer now, in
to the state of the metropolis. At this
(40tsi: reod,i a greater number of inhabitants than any
to be .0001 Ito had ever possessed. Within a circle of ght peso St. Paul's, there were no less than
rrege°tan Or Mite ins, and the population of the town itself
betv"er 44,,t1 the4a, Million and a half. In that population
did °°lolll?'.ti ,Ititn'tlbson tleirest and the poorest men, whose wealth
was r'oid,ll4 s, 0i iv() ''erpassed by that of any other men, in
ley °snot°, taLleratjstever, and the most wretched outcasts,
e cun epre ; ei),` Fondition am not equalled by the poor
it of r o'l6 4 4ttl Yla Eu C ' a
oas a ;, p„,4 rope. e poet owpir, ye rs
COP 113 tt , this town surrounded with its villas,
omittee or 'tsi.v ,
hefoi, tittittieled the e with his belt of beads." It no
, VI, It bY titl' billy comparison. It had three large parks,
i'ntnitoe" 11'.‘te tied to tW,aB open, while the other two were
`-'°corporrt'villeel trrOiler Public.. These did not afford suffi-
cal t 41, kfili he
exercise of the population.
or 14:148 to the benevolent mind to witness
pori:itido,
be (Yea ItV,ANt‘,l,l:l paths, whose labours confined them to a
°P' would o'4 aoe ttk,i.t. the aPs a heated room, during the week,
lan fset'4,4,o':,:tsc ns,nwded city to enjoy the benefit of
the.
oas 'rola "at, sn'tle,ll" biro Its termination. His humble abilities
f sit te tr,ntthe nuit:.' make the impression upon the
be.,
." 0,3 • ip pl. 'l, ti J''t merited ; but he was certain
to (,11,0 Wu, epn, °ere „i " • 901,e, ijolodn,vo tLt•ll4, ate! an earnest interest in fa
of Ord role 4etoNCopolial,,iter adverting to the facilities
chefaf-
exerei'iairth 'ate h41N't,..,0%,n consequence of the noble liver
le for itfod I.` ti,ttte trb facilities had not been turned
toooiciPoi etsle cti• Member called the attention of
ro'' la '4l 'II:4d, (.4 some of the reat towns in the
;I,e ter ~,t' aOr tlV4k IN the 0 . .
diot:/id
t,t4dt spy 4 the Inflation in some of which
in the IN" „iey 444%4 epeti Lst thirty years. In not one
the ~s' 0,..
,1+ to„,, 'Pace provided, where the ar-
nby 111 ek t}, "'g re •
nted
sot
1,,,t0nr,4t create himself and his family ;
Pro
t.igek,tlo:l,i, elentatives of those places, that
the o.oe Je p t't 't iCnUrnee to remedy the defect. To
J rate, ti Net, i
i„ w via 0f
,tit otc,❑ the north deserved every
wohetterdes
tae
,tiee
tiltntriodatien of the kind, he com-
,wer bbd
I,shin6 3,1:01,21Nt
,to th•!,te,u,. t'rpartof the kingdom with the
•e-is t• ali,frete I est' as; turn Observing, that in the latter it
hissot rar rid, eare With f He then
"r c' to. (04 Of '404 v re urn er.
oete a I nfvast increase of the cotton trade,
h4iiaineii,(o, 14he
rest. He gave the following
the r_ N
1,
it
raw cotton manufactured in
0' !t1 gjO, ~ *4,
ratEenil, be T 1 441 14C013 11,1)a(1,'41Y . Pounds.
it hit .... ............. 5,000,000
hi to viikeast ito,ttea,e, too ................. 86,000,000
paid .%1,,,14 jas4 .................. 1 47,00000
h r
;.; ......... ... 250,000,000
',111u,„ :e I. au 86 millions sterling ;
t ding, and it kept in employ

r 1101111
• deSil
, IN
90d* AcC
iko
god thus. eo
ould have tine'
3 the quto
pion that
ieSAthen be 3,
then the a.
cep - L, ,
light lie "Pij
• afterwar.'

iirely star'
I et: be a"r4
d 3inplan'e chat,
lei wb'e bid
role t;
• b they
of thew
7 cor
t6e e the t
re wito L"
been P
irotested ;Veep
e case be
he
nil in tbac
his cheat
House' tioe
'n at the
tv:
I have PreEee

teas itite"ol
concerns 00
the C'T9of
" bit th,
say ,
insider
tc
••
( fleard,
.n a goo,tutd
, coro"
tleroe°•
, c ,
of all 0
r•th re'reot
' he bad tee c)
Colvw_lt,l,olJ

ipanY T intr
he rod
•be c°°Poi
lstitutipo
t ts of tbe.re
, ,„. it
0P ,
03PP
ce,:d
Geoje
iv en rise
3in ittee•frodr ,11)
v-

Mr. Oswald
Lord Dalmeny

1,260,000 persons, or twenty-five times as many as were
engaged in it 50 years ago. In Manchester only 167,000
persons were engaged in the cotton trade, and yet not one
of them could find an open space in the town or its vici•
nity, where he could enjoy the vulgar luxury of a walk.
Upon these points, he especially directed the notice of the
House to the work of Mr. Babbage, on the Economy of
Manufactures. Other considerations besides the public
health ought to induce Members to consider this subject
very seriously ; but a comparison of the number of deaths
in 10,000 persons, before they reached twenty years old,
in various situation, would show how material such out.
lets were to health. He made the subsequent statement
upon this point
In a healthy county
In a marshy county
In London 4,500 out of 10,000
In Carlisle 'i,6oo out of 10,000
In Preston, Stockport, Wigan,
and Bury
In Leeds the loss of life was still treater in proportion,
being more than 6,000 out of every 10,000 persons before
they reached the age of 21. This evidence showed how elem.
!lately necessary it was that every thing possible should be
done to promote longevity. In London, it was notorious
that there were many hundreds who knew what the
country was only by description of the pastoral rur dities
of Harnpst::-ad and 11,glogate. He did not put it, however,
merely on the ground of health. Of !Ate years there had
been a growing disposition to decry the amusements of the
poor, and wakes and fairs had been abolished for their
immorality; but those who abolished them were bound to
find a substitute, or to incur the suspicion of canting liy-
pocrisy.—(Cheers.) He was persuaded that if due outlets
were provided, the consumption of spirits would decrease,
and mechanics, instead of sotting in ale-houses, would re-
joice in the opportunity of enjoying the open air. Another
argument he begged to address to the Vice-President of
the Board of Trade, and it was this—that the consump-
tion of manufactured goods would be increased by enabling
the lower orders of both sexes to display their neatness
or their finery. A plain man, like himself, or like the
Noble Lord (Althorp) were content, perhaps, to wear
coats only because they kept them warm—(Hear,
hear, and loud laughter)—but the greater part of man-
kind sported dress because they thought they appeared in
it to advantage. The maid-servant and the mechanic's
daughter took as much pride in displaying her rich ri-
bands as a Duchess her diamonds.—(Cheers.) But
fathers and mothers were naturally happy in seeing their
children well dressed, and in letting other people see them
so. Hence public walks would be of great advantage to
trade. It would be asked in what way he proposed to
accomplish his object ? Let a Committee be appointed to
consider the subject, to inquire and to report to the House
the best means of securing the advantage he had described.
This he could assure the House, that the expense would
not be at all as great as some might imagine. A walk
near a great town, like that in Christchurch Meadows,
would neither he expensive to make nor to keep up. It
might surround a manufacturing town like a Boulevard.
In the vicinity of some places there was ample ground ap-
plicable to such a purpose. For instance, near Coventry
there was a common which only wanted draining, and
many Corporations possessed landed property which he
hoped they would be willing to devote so usefully. But
if these means failed, he would suggest that money might
be advanced by Government on the security of local rates,
as had been done for the construction of additional
churches. If in those churches a provision was made of
free seats for the poor, he saw no reason why free
walks should not be also secured to therm—(Cheers.) He
moved, " That a Select Committee be appointed to con-
sider the best means of securing open spaces in the vicinity
of populous towns as public walks, calculated to promote
the health and comfort of the inhabitants."
Dr. BALDWIN seconded the motion, but recom-
mended that the Committee should be empowered first to
inquire into the hest mode of promoting cleanliness in the
dwellings of the poor, and of rendering more airy the
situations they inhabited. It theta might follow rip the
subject, by investigating the means of giving them open
spaces for recreation.
Mr. LAMB agreed that the subject of the health of the
lower orders was of much importance to the Legislature,
but be doubted whether much more might not be done to
promote the object of the Hon. Member by Magistrates of
towns, which he called local Legislatures, than by Par-
liament. At the same time, he had no objection to the
trial of the experiment, and expressed the great pleasure it
always gave him to see people who worked hard all the week
innocently enjoying themselves on Sunday. He hoped that
nothing would at any time be attempted to cloud the
general sunshine of the cheerful Sabbath in this country.
—(Much cheering, )
Mr. FAITHFUL cordially approved of the Committee.
Mr. LENNARD took this opportunity of calling the
attention of Ministers to the promise long since made, that
the Regent's Park should be opened to the public. It was
a lobe of the lungs of London ; and yet, although the
timber had so much grown, there seemed no more chance
than fitrmerly that the public would be admitted within
the enclosures. This great advantage ought not to be lost
because certain influential individuals had villas in the
park.--(Cheers.)

F. O'CONNOR feared no legislative enactment
could be made to apply to any such evil, or produce any
such rermdy as that in the contemplation of the Hon.
Gentleman opposite.

Mr. PORT—MAN said that, in his opinion, the stopping
up of footpaths was one of the greatest causes of the want
of sufficient opportunities of air and exe cise for the hum-
bler classes, and he hoped the House would not allow any
opportunity to pass of doing all that legislation could do
to prevent any further extension of that evil. He intended
very soon to bring in a Bill, to which a clause miglit,with
perfect propriety, be added, which would render the stop-
ping up of footpaths extremely difficult. Directing his
observations more particularly to the Noble Lord at the
head of the Woods and Forests Depirtuient, be expressed
a hope that the time was not distant when the whole of
the Regent's Park would he open to the public.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY observed, that there were more
notices of moti,ns for Enclosure Bills since the commence•
ment of the present session than had ever been given in
an equal length of time, but he had no reason to think
any of them contained a specific provision to prevent the
shutting up of footpaths.
Mr. BENETT observed that most great towns had ad-
joining to them spaces of ground, not as the Hon. Msm-
ber proposed to enclose, or rather open, for the purposes
i,f recreation. For his part he thought that it would be
much better to introduce Into private Bills clauses for this
purpose, than to make them the subject of a public mea-
sure.

After a few words from Mr. EWING,
Mr. SLANEY briefly replied, the rtr.tion was agreed
to, and the Committee appointed; an Hon. Member,
whose name we could not learn, having previously ob-
served, that before they incurred any considerable expense
for providing amusement for the poor, they should take care
to provide for them good and sufficient clothing, and to
protect them from being overworked—if those were once
procured, all other matters would follow of course. The
following Members constitute the Committee :
Mr. Slaney Mr. George William Wood
Lord Viscount Duncanuon Mr. William Brougham
Lord Viscount Morpeth Mr. Thomas Attwood
Lord Viscount Sandon Mr. Mine
Lord Oxmantou ii Sir John Hanmer
Mr. Lamb Mr. Parker
Mr. Tennyson Mr. Evans (Leicester)
Sir Oswald Mosley Mr. Ewing
Sir John Key Mr. Ellice
Mr. Clay Mr. Dugdale
Mr. PhiHipps Sir Harry Verney
Mr. Marshall

SCOTCH ENTAILS.
Mr. KENNEDY moved for a Select Committee on
the subj, et of the Law of Entail in Seotland.—Agreed to,
and the following Committee appointed .
Mr. Kennedy Sir John Hay
The Lord Advocate Mr. Murray
Mr. Abercromby Mr. Trail
Mr. Robert Grant Mr. James Oswald
Mr. Littleton Mr. Leith Hay
Lord Ormelic Captain Gordon
Mr. Hope Johnstone Mr. Warburtoix

Mr. Loch
Sir Andrew Agnew

Mr. Bannerman

Mr. Strickland
Mr. Dunlop

Mr. Tancred

Mr. Warre

THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

Mr. HI ME rose to move, pursuant to notice, for esti-
mates of the whole revenue and expenditure of the country
for 1833; and to call the attention of the House to the
present mode of keeping the public accounts. He mainly
objected to the practice of voting away large sums in that
House on account of a department, without knowing
what the aggregate amount of the expenses of that depart-
ment might be for the whole year. The entire sum voted in
that House in last year was 17,783,0001., for five quarters
—that was the whole amount over which the House of
Commons exercised any control, while the actual expen-
diture of the country amounted to 51,000,000/. He com-
plained that the public accounts in this country were not
h'pt with any thing like the clearness and precision which
prevailed in France or America; and in such a condition
were our public accounts that it was not till the financial
accounts of the year were published that they could obtain
any knowledge of the mode in which the public money
was expended. It was equally true that the public re-
'wined in ignorance of the cost of collecting the public
revenue, and therefore he was anxious to introduce such

an alterat'on as would bring the customs establishment
and the excise under the examination of the House an-
nually, in the same manner as the estimates for the army
and the navy. It were notorious that in Scotland and Ire-
land there were many cnstome establishments which cost
,
twice as much as the revenue of the port. That, he need
scarcely observe, was one of the effects Parlia•
tnentary influence—an influence, the evil effects of which
w
he hoped were no
drawing
tolm revenue
ra(e'lromsee mig t he consideredbrtu
close. He
giii
that the expense of collecting the
hack to what it was et and before the year nin, ty seven,
an l that the number of persons nsw employed in collect-
ing it, might be limited to what it was at that period. p
the Estimates were properly brought before the House
annually, this could easily be accomplished, and his object
in making the present motion wae, that the gross amount
of the revenue should be annually laid before the House.
The net amount of the revenue was 46,900,0001. to which
should be added for expenses of collecting it, abeut
3,500,000/. Now the House eliou!d have laid before it
the items of this expense of collection before it reached the
Exchequer, in order that each Hon. Member might he,
able to examine those items, and approve or disapprove of
ehern. The expense of the preventive service was 300,0001.
yet not one shilling of this expense came under the cogni-
ounce or control of Parliament; 238,0001. was the
amount expended by both Houses of Parliament in print-
ing, yet the items of that expense were never 1 kid before
the House. Pensions were placed upon the Consolidated
Fund, about which he could never get any details, although
he, mere frequently than any other Member of that House,
had called for them. It was in this way, than which
nothine could be more improper, that pensions were kept
from the view of the public ; the acts for which they were
granted could not be referred to, and the House could have
no effectual check upen them. He repeated that the
several items of expense should be annually, and at an early
period, laid before the House, as it was the duty of every
Hon. Member to give his opinion on every item of the
public expenditure. It was too late to bring expenses before
the House when they were paid, as was the case, for
instance, with respect to the Diplomatic service.
As an instance of the manner in which calculations were
now lumped, out of the 27,000 men called seamen and
marines, 8,000 are marines, and 5,000 of these are upon
shore. When the army is calculated at 88,000 men, the
House is not informed whether the 5,000 marines on shore
are included in that calculation or not. If they are, then
the army is so many thousands greater than is generally
supposed, and the public are cheated out of the additional
expense. Everything like deception might he avoided, if
each session, before the 15th of January, the Estimates
of the ensuing year were, with the items connected ivith
them, laid before the House. Until the various items of
expense were annually voted, there could be no !material
reduction ; the salaries of the Judges would still be too
high, as would he the salaries of utter public servants.
The Army and Navy Estimates were annually brought
before the House ; how could there, then, be any objec-
tion to give the simplest details to the House, and the
manner the 50,000,000/. p iid out of the revenue was
expended ? Until at the commencement of the session the
whole amount of taxes was given, without keeping out
the charges of the collection of the revenue, no fair arid
satisfactory balance could be made out at the end of the
year. When 47,000,000/. were raised upon the people,
and when three or four millions were added to it, it would
he nothing more than honest to show that the addition
was caused by the expenses of collection. He would
move for—" Estimates of the total Revenue and Expen-
diture for 1833 ; for Estimates, in detail, of the Charges
for Collection of the Revenue, and of Payments made out
of the Revenue in its way to the Exchequer, other than
the Collection of the Revenues."
Colonel DAVIES- seconded the motion.
Lord ALTHORP begged to remind the Hon. Member
who had last spoken that this was not a time when his
motion could be granted. Ile was asking for the esti-
rnetes for 1833-34, and he 'a as asking for what it was
impossible to give him. With respect to the financial
change proposed by the Hon. Member, lie confessed that
he did not understand it ; for he did not see how a correct
account could he made out before the year was concluded.
If the Hon. Gentleman wished for a partial and confused
one, he was pursuing the very best course to obtain it.
There was one part of the Hon. Member's speech at
which he felt surprised—namely, that part of it which
referred to the balance sheet, designating it as completely
delusive, since it was only a return of the net public in-
come. Why, this plan was adopted at the Hon. Mem-
ber's own suggestion, and put into the very form he re-
commended.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member says
that Parliament has under its control only the votes in
supply, and thinks that it should also have control over
the consolidated fund. The reason that fund was not
connected with the sue plies, and that the House had not
direct control over it was, that it depended upon Act of
Parliament, and was permanent; whereas the supplies were
voted annually. The sums between the gross and net
revenue were voted annually, consequently Parliament
had a direct control over them. There was one thing he
would promise upon this point, that a Bill was in prepa-
ration, and about to be introduced into the Exchequer, by
which the whole gross revenue would be carried to ac-
count. With respect to the collection of the revenue, a
distinct and detailed account would be given, ending of
course with the preceding year. It would be impossible
to state the gross sum for the current year, as many con-
tingencies might happen in the collection, which would
preclude all just calculation. The detailed expenses of
the previous year were all the House could reasonably ex-
pect, and were, perhaps, all that was necessary for it.
The receipts of the previous year were the only data for
the estimates of the current one, and unless it could be
assumed that they were the same both years, no positive
calculation could be made as to the current year. The
Hon. Member must be aware that he was always ready to
lay before the House the public accounts as soon as pos-
sible. With respect to the abuses of the revenue in cer-
tain ports, he agreed that they were great ; but yet they
were unavoidable. The object was to prevent smuggling
in those ports, which, though very expensive, was neces-
sary, as it prevented the receipts of the revenue
from becoming less in all the other ports. That the revenue
might be fairly collected, every port claimed to be protected.
On the expenses of printing incurred by both Houses of
Parliament, he had not the slightest objection to lay before
the House the largest and clearest details. In tact, he would
even go so far as to give a detail of the expenses caused by
individual Members.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member's com-
plaint about the salaries of Judges was not very just. He
ought to reflect upon the sacrifice the Lord Chief Justice
of the King's Bench hail lately made. That Learned
Judge was satisfied with the salary of 8,000/. a year, in.
stead of 10,0001. ; and abandoned, besides, certain advan-
tages of place, by which be might have made a more con-
siderable sum than this actual salary. He would conclude
by repeating, that it was the intention of Government to
bring in a Bill to regulate the Exchequer, that the gross
Revenue would be carried to account, and that on the
other side would be placed the exact expenditure. By this
Bill, the House would have next year the control the
Hon. Member wished it to have, and which he admitted
had not had hitherto,

Mr. HUME begged to correct a statement made by the
Noble Lord respecting the balance-sheer, which only gave
a net return of the public income. The adoption of that
method was not his suggestion, but was an amended pro-
position of the Finance Committee. The Noble Lord,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said that it was difficult
to estimate what the amount of the revenue for the ensu-
ing year should be. He (Mr. Hume) could not Pee why it
should be snore difficult in this country than in America,
where correct estimates for two or more quarters could
always be obtained.

After a few words from Lord ALTHORP in explanation,
Mr. HumE withdrew his motion.
Mr. HUME then rose, and said that he bad now a
motion to submit to the House of co►nsiderable importance
to the whole of the shipping interest of this country—be
meant the charges to which they are subjected for the
maintenance and expense of lighthouses on the coast. He
(Mr. Hume) had first brought this question under the
consideration of the House in 1821, when a Committee
was appointed, who gave in a report, from which Hon.
Members would find the amount of charge to which the
shipping interest was subjected on this account. He was
bound to say, that since the 'report of that Committee
was given in, much had beer, done to relieve the shipping
interest from this charge. The complaint which he had
now to make was, that :he King's prerogative was grossly
abused in renewing leases of lighthouses to private indi-
viduals, and for their private benefit. I❑ the report laid
before the House in 1823 by the shipping interest, it
was recommended that all lighthouses should be placed
under the direction of the Trinity-house, and that no
charge should be made for them beyond the exact amount
expended for their maintenance; but, notwithstanding that
recommendation, the lighthouse of Dungeness (which
was let to Mr. Coke), and those of Harwich and Orford-
ness, were let since that period on terms which entailed an
annual expense of 30,000/. on the shipping interest. In
order to slime the extent of the injury, he would read
what the report said on the subject of,...three of the
private lighthouses only. It appeared that from the
Winterton lighthouse—the proceeds of which are divided
equally between Lord Braybrooke and the. Commissioners
of Woods and Forests, and from which returns had only
been given for twenty-one months from the expiring of
the old lease—that in these twenty-one months Lord Bray-
brooke received, after all the expenses of maintain-

ing the lighthouse and keeping up the lights had been
I aid, 11,000/., and the Commissioners of NVso that on this lighthouse alone a
o ods an I
s laid on the shipping interee. He
tFaoxreotafts22a,oliolcoel.suwnal
had brought ete subject before the Hattie in 182:3, when
several Members had stated their opinions on it; and at
that time two Ministers of the Crown pledged them.
selves, that as the leases of private lighthouses fel
in, they should not be renewed, yet they were renewed.
( Hear, hear, hear.) He consider, d that th is was exer
cising the King's prerogative to at; extent which was con.
tray to the Constitution, for the King had no right to
tax any class of his subjects. The lighthouses of
terton and Otfordness had yielded to tte family of Lord
Braybroake 22,000/. a year for the last 21 years ; and it
was ab,urd to say that because thot family had enjoyed
this revenue for so many years, it should continue to enjoy
it. Dungeness yielded a revenue to Mr. Coke of S,OOO/
a year, and Harwich 4,000/. There were many other
private lighthouses, but he now only alluded to those of
which the leases have lately expired, and of which the Go-
vernment promised that the leases should not be renewed.
Since the report of the Committee was given in, the re-
commendation made by them had been aceeded to, and the
charge levied for those lights had been reduced by one-half;
but he (Mr. Hume) was prepared to show that a still
greater reduction ought to be made. In 1828 the amount
levied for lighthouses in England was 63,000/. In
Scotland 34,0001, and in Ireland 36000/. ; which, with
the amount levied for the three private lighthouses which
he had already mentioned, came to 165,0001. This was
exclusive of other private lighthouses, of which he could
not ascertain the revenue, as they did not choose to make
any return ; but he thought that he was not far wrong in
saying that the whole sum raised on the shipping interest.,
for the support of lighthouses, amounted to from 180,000/.
to 190,000/. The whole system required consideration,
and to be put under different management from what it was
at peseta. The Members of the Trinity House are naval
men—he had opportunities of observing them for ten years,
and had satisfaction in saying, that he thought they did
their duty. But what was the case in Scotland? He
held in his hand a list of the Board of Commissioners for
the Northern lighthouses, and he would put it to the
House whether they were fitted for the duties connected
with that office,. The first on the list was the Lord Pro-
vost of Edinburgh; then followed the Lord Provost of
Glasgow (whom he had the pleasure of seeing opposite to
him) ; the Provosts of Aberdeen and Inverness; and the
Sheriffs of Lanark, Argyle, Orkney, &c., all of them law-
yers--(Hear, hear)—and without a single naval wan
among them. He would leave it to the House to say
whether these were the most proper persons to manage
lighthouses. The fact was, that they had a clever engineer,
to whom the whole management was confided. The idea
of trusting such a matter to persons like the Provost of
Glasgow, or the Provost of Inverness—or, indeed, any
other Provost, was quire preposterous.—(Hear, and
laughter.) But if matters were bad in Scotland, they
were worse in Ireland. In Dublin, there was what was
called a Ballast Board, who managed the lighthouses, and
who raised 36,000/. for that purpose. The Board con-
sisted of bankers, magistrates, and persons of all classes,
excepting naval men—there was not one naval man in
the Ballast Board ; yet, to that Board was confided the
care of those lighthouses in which the whole shipping in-
terest was so much concerned. He thought that in a sub-
ject of so much importance, it was the duty of the First
Lord of the Admiralty to take up the question, and carry
some measure through which, would put it on a proper
footing.—(Hear, hear.) Ile (Mr. Hume) was aware
that the subject was fenced with charters, which
might be rather difficult to overcome, but he did
not think th tt these would offer any obstacle which was
insurmountable. He had no objection that the Trinity
should have the management of the lighthouses in Eng-
land, but while Scotch provosts and lawyers, and Irish
bankers and magistrates had the management of them in
their respective countries, he could not expect that they
would be properly managed. He hoped that the House
would take the lights from these two bodies—(A laugh)
—that they would not allow the northern lights to shine
under their present auspices, nor the Ballast Board to ex-
ercise its jurisdiction in Ireland another year. He con-
cluded by moving for returns of the lighthouse duties
paid at each lighthouse in England, Scotland, and Ire-
land, from the year 1828 to the present time.
Mr. ROBINSON seconded the motion.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON did not mean to oppose
the motion made by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, be-
cause he thought it one of very great importance. He
would not at present say what course the Government
should pursue; but when the returns for which the Hon.
Member had called ware made, they would see hoW the
question should he dealt with. It was his own (Mr. P.
Thomson's) opinion, that leases of lighthouses ought
never to have been given to private individuals, and that
in future those leases ought not to be conceded which
pressed with such severity both on the public and on
individuals. He hoped that some arrangement might
be made by which a portion of the burden could be
taken off. With regard to the leases which had ex-
pired since the period when the Committer on foreign
trade had made their report, his opinion was, that
they ought not to have been again conceded—(Hear,
bear, hear)—but that those lighthouses should have
been placed under the direction of the Trinity House.
He could not agree, however, with the Honourable
Member, in thinking that the present Government
were to blame regarding the renewal of those leases.
The only leases which fell in since the present Government
took office were two, which leases had been renewed to
Greenwich Hospital ; and in those cases from 5,0001 to
6,000/. a year were given up to the shipping interest
which could not have been demanded, and the lights were
put under the directions of the Trinity House. As far as
the present Government was concerned, every thing within
their power that could benefit the shipping interest was
done. He admitted that the Hon. Member for Middlesex
WllB correct in saying that money was paid out of the public
purse to the leaseholders of private lighthouses, and for
the benefit of private persons, but that was before the pre-
sent Government came into office, and they were not ac-
countable for it. The Government, however, intended
to make the management of lighthouses the subject of a
specific measure.
Sir R PEEL come' ..ed that the Right Hon. Gentle..
man had made the granting of the lease of these light-
houses the subject of an attack on the last Government, as
if that Government had renewed these leases for the pur-
pose of obtaining the support and influence in that House
of the persons to whom they were granted. It was true
that in 1828 two leases did fall in, and that new leases
were given. But to whom were they given ? To e
Noble Lord and a Member of Parliament, who uniformly
opposed the last Government.—(Hear.) He would beg
to remark, that the subject was not quite so siusple as the
Hon. Mover seemed to think. The Dungeness lighthouse
was built by one of Mr. Coke's ancestors at his own ex-
pense, and it, therefore, belonged to him ; so that the
Government would have to purchase the property of it, if
they did not renew the lease.

kr. HUAIE was aware that the lighthouse belonged to
Mr. Coke but there fund property within fifty yards of it
belonging to the Trinity Flou,e, which would suit for a
lighthotpe fully tv: well as the situation on which the pre-
sent lighthouse stood.

After a few words from Mr. ROBINSON in explanation,
Mr. PEASE rose and said, it appeared to him a very
extraordinary thing, that while noblemen, gentlemen, and
companies were subscribing their fifties and hundreds of
pounds for the preservation of ships and seamen, for Cap •
tain Manley's api aratus, &c., a duty should be levied by
his Majesty's Government which proved the cause of lives
and property being lost in the gross. It was eminently
requisite that a Committee should be appointed to see into
this. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by congratulating
the House that they had, at length, arrived at a measure
of practical reform ; the attention of the House, hitherto,
appeared to have been almost wholly occupied in a series
of desultory debatings—(Hear)—and special pleadings,
which, though they had occasionally much amused and,
he hoped, instructed him, had certainly taken up a great
deal of time, and produced very trifling results.—(Hear.)
An HON. MEMBER under the Gallery, whose name we
could not learn, made a few observations, of which we
could not even catch the tenor.
Lord EBRINGTON rose to correct a statement made
by an Hon. Member (Mr. Hume). That Hon. Gentle-
man bad stated the annual receipts of Lord Braybrooke,
from Dundee and Orfordness, to be 22,0001., besides a
large sum received independent of this. He was not aware
whence the Hon. Member derived this information, but
he conic' state that it was greatly exaggerated. In fact,
he could tell the House decidedly that these properties do
not produce half that amount. He (Lord Ebrington) was
far from pretending to advocate the propriety of the grant,
though he was confident that the Government who made
it had no sinister or improper motives for so doing.
Mr. HUME would authenticate his statement by read•
ing the return sent in by Lord Braybrooke, of the receipts
whence he had derived his information. On the expira-
tion of the former lease, it bad been arranged between
the Commissioners of Woods and Forests and his Lord-
ship, that after the expenses bad been paid, the subse-
quent profits should be divided between the parties so
agreeing. By this return it appeared that Lord Bray-
brooke had received 11,877/. for his share of the profits,
no that: of course 23,754/. bad been levied in twenty-one

months. This sum was a net amount orer and above
the expenses.—(N ; Hear 1
Lord EBRINGTON obs?reed that the Hon. r
had stated the receipts at above 23,0001. per annum.
Mr. HUIIE said if an, he had made a mistake. The
Hon. Gentleman confirmed, that in spite of an urgent
objection made by a Committee fro:n the Trinity House,
the lease had been renewed, and the country thereby
5.,(1,1!ed with a burden to the amount of 30,000/. a year,
An How. MEMIIEB, whose name we could not ascer-
tain, expressed his strong objection to any additional
charge up,m British shipping, which, as it was, felt it as
an intolerable grievance that while all the expense of these
lighthouses fell upon the merchant service, the It ,yai
Navy experienced all the ben, fi•s of 1-,etla wit ioeit in the
least contributing to th• it maintenance. The lion. Metn-
,er felt that the Royal Navy should pry their share of the
expense. He had been induced more particularly to make
these observations, from information he hail received that
it was in contemplation to erect a new light at the expense
of the merchant service, the sole benefit of which would re-
sult to the Royal Navy.
Lord EBRINGTON explained that the intention and
bargain between the Hospital and the Trinity House was,
that the expenses should not be laid to them above the
mere maintenance of the necessary ligh is; and if this
had been exceeded, the agreement, it was clear, had been
abandoned.
An How. MEMEER s)rongly advocated the proposed
lights, and read a letter from a merchant, insisting that
they were indispensable.
Sir EDWARD CODRIYGTON observed, that it was
a great point not to have too many lights, as, where these
existed, the a iilors were confused, and could not distinguish
one from another.
The production of the papers was then agreed to.
PRINCE LEOPOLD'S ANNUITY.
Mr. HALL brought forward his motion for the pro-
duction of an account of all sums of money which have
been paid into the Exchaquer nut of the annuity granted
to Prince Leopold, now King of the Belgians, since 18th
July, 1831. He did so in consequence of what had been
mentioned in this House on a former occasion, and of a
letter received by the Noble Lord at the head of his Ma-
jesty's Government, from the King of the Belgians, stating
that it was not his intention to draw from this country
the amount of the income granted him by it. That there
remained, however, some debts to be paid off it, the amount
of which he could not exactly state. That he wished a
portion to be applied to the keeping up of the estate and
house at Claremont ; and that there were certain annuities
to he paid out of it. What remained, after these sums
were paid, he made over to his Majesty's Government,
partly for the purpose of remunerating certain persons for
public services, partly t{) subscritre to certain charities
which had been contributed to H.R.H. the Princess
Charlotte, and the residue to his Majesty's Exchequer."
The Hon. Member continued, that it was then calculated
that -10,0001. would pay off these debts. Consequently,
since the large income in question had been now accumu-
lating for a year and a half, he wished to know whether
there had been any portion of it paid into his Majesty's
Exchequer; and if so, what sum?
Lord ALTHORP referred to the provisions made by
his Majesty of the Belgians, comprehending present debts,
annuities, sums for charity, and keeping up the establish-
talent at Claremont. The lion. Gentleman bad assumed
the debts to be 10,0001., but on what grounds he could
not conceive. In fact, the debts had turned out to be
much more than was expected, as is often the case with
debts—(A laugh)—and had not been wholly discharged
to this day.—(Hear, bear.) His attention having be n
called to the subject, he had made assiduous inquiries,
and found that no sum had as yet been paid into the Ex-
chequer. The trustees appointed to manage the affair
had, upon finding this charge upon the annuity, declined
acting at present, not knowing to what amount of debt
they might he making themselves liable. The trust ac-
cordingly had not as yet come into operation ; but when
the debts were liquidated, he trusted that large sums
would be paid into the Exchequer. Under these circum-
stances, he trusted the Hon. Gentleman would not press
his motion.
After a few explanatory observations from Mr. HALL,
the motion was withdrawn.
Mr. ROBINSON rose to make a few observations on
the tnotion—(Cries of " Withdrawn")—which the Hon.
Gentleman had anticipated him in. He merely wished
to observe, that the Noble Lord (Althorp) had given
no prospect of when the Exchequer would begin to feel
the benefits of !his relinquishment on his Majesty the King
of the Belgians' part, nor any intimation as to what was
the amount of the claims on the property.—(oh, oh.)
He also questioned whether his Majesty, in his present
capacity, retained those claims which he possessed on this
country as Prince Leopold.—(The Hon. Member's speech
was rendered inaudible from the very general fit of cough-
ing which at the instant seized almost all the Hon.
Members.)

VOTES OF THE MEMBERS.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY brought forward his motion for
he recording of the votes of Members on divisions. No
Hon. Member could wish to have the proceedings of this
House kept secret from the people for whom they were
legislating, and as unwilling must every Member be to
keep his vote a secret from his constituency: it must be
satisfactory to all parties to have them generally known.
They now stood in a different relation to their con-
stituents to that in which they stood before the
Parliament was reformed. Their proceedings were
closely watched by the public, who, till the Re-
form Bill was passed, were estranged from the Par-
liament, which had no sympathy with them. Now a
sympathy had been restored between them, and the people
looked with confidence to their deliberations. Ic could
only be by some strange neglect if the feelings of the pub-
lic should again be alienated from the Parliament ; and a
record of their votes, while it made their opinions known,
would be the best means of guarding against it. He
would not suggest any plan of taking the votes, because
he did not wish to divert the attention of the House from
the principle, and because he knew, if he suggested any
plan, gentlemen would torture their ingenuity to devise
objections to the details and would lose sight of the prin-
ciple.—(Hear, hear.) He would leave it to the known
talents of the Speaker to point out the beat mode of accom-
plis'ing it. If, however, he were to suggest any plan,
it would be, perhaps, that there should be a box provided
at the table of the House, and one in the lobby.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) He knew that he should, by
mentioning any plan, stir up the gravity of a lawyer,
but, nevertheless, he must say, that with these boxes
and the Members' names printed on slips of paper,
they might, as the minority went forth, put their
names in the box in the lobby; while the majority, who
would stay in the House, might put their names in the
box on the table. But be did not insist upon it that a
Committee of three gentlemen, should the principle be
conceded, might undoubtedly find means to carry it into
execution. He wished to meet one objection, namely, that
the motion was proposed with a view to intimidation.
That notion would be clung to by the Conservatives, who
might say that it was making the House of Commons a
Political Union.—(Hear, hear.) Those gentlemen would
say that it was unsuitable for the House to act under the
terror of their constituency. But he thought that even
the Conservatives must like to have their votes recorded,
even to show that they had performed their duty in a
manner unexceptionable to their party.—(Hear, hear.)
There was no gentleman, whatever might be his opinions,
who could wish to conceal his votes.—(Hear, bear.) He
wished to ask the Noble Lord, the Member for Norwich,
who cheered him, what votes he ever gave which he would
like to have concealed ? None, he was sure. On a late
occasion, when a list of the minority who voted in favour
of the motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex was
published, there were 13S names, and about twenty mis•
takes. The list of the minority only was published on
that occasion ; but of course the majority also wished
that their patriotism should be proclaimed.—(Loud
laughter.) They did not wish to hide their me-
rits under a bushel.—(Laughter.) They desired for
their own gratification, and the gratification of their con-
stituents, that it should be known in what manner they
had discharged their duty.—(Cheers and laughter.) He
could fancy the disappointment they must suffer after such
a publication in the papers of the following day, when the
votes of the virtuous majority could only be picked up by
questions of, how did you vote ?—(Cheers and laughter.)
Then, again, the lists were to be corrected. There came
xt morning letters from this Conservative Club-house,
and that Union to the editors of newspapers, requesting
them to insert a correction that Mr. so and so was in the
House, and voted in the majority.—(Hear, hear.) All
these things showed a respectable anxiety in the Members
to have their votes known. On these grounds be should
propose his motion, and take the sense of the House upon
it.—(flear, hear.) He would not, however, press the
latter part of his motion relative to the Members pairing ,
off to leave their names in the Vote-office, but on the first
part of the motion he would take the sense of the House.
The Hon. Member concluded my moving, " That Mr.
Speaker be requested to make the necessary arrangement
for the taking of the divisions, and for the insertion of
them in the votes, giving the name of each Member in
the majority and minority—Members pairing off to leave
their names in the Vote-office."
Lord STORMONT was understood to say that, as the
Hon. Gentleman had alluded to him, he would take the
opportunity of delivering his opinions on the subject. He
was returned to Parliament without having given any

pledge whatever, and he had no hesitation in saying that
would oppose the motion. Pledges had been proposed
to imp, but to tee peeioet.tett t,e Used Liven e flat rental.
He represented his own op n ens in that House, and
cot
the opinions of others. He came there determined alwsss
to exercise his own judgment, and act accordingly, and n.,;to be guided by the will of any other individual what.
ever.—( Hear, heat.) The lion. Gentleman wished to
; aye an authentic account of the votes of all the Members
prlblished in the papers.—(No, in the 'Votes.) That was,
thought, an inflineetnent on the constitutional privi-
leges of the House, and would only encourage the people
to watch their proceedings. A few d .ys ago, as the Hon.
Member-said, there was a list published of the glorious
minority of 138, atid afterwards a list of the glorieus ma-
jority, and in that majority he found hie name, though he
van not present. He regarded that as of no moment,
and has! not taken any trouble to correct it, as he was not
ambitious of writing a letter to the Ti• ;e Sun, or any
ether aim lar publication. Certainly, if he had been in
the House on that occasion, he would have supported his
M ijesty's Ministers, because he thought that they were up-
holding the constitutional prerogative of the Crown.—
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member said every Member
must wish to have it known how he voted ; he, for one,
cared nothing about it. He was responsible to hit/melt,
and be and all the Members were responsible hereafter to
their constituents ; but at present ire was sent there to de
what lie thought was right. If they were t r assetit to the
motion, it would be depreciating the chatamee •bits;
House. On those grounds he should oppose tine tuition.
Lord ALTHORP could not say that he agreed w.tli the
Noble Lord, that Members ought not to be responsible to
their constituents. Every Member ought, in his opition,
to be responsible to his constituents as well as to himself;
—(Hear, hear.) At the sane time he did not think es‘olf.:
t!emen were bound to give pledges as to whist they shouldi
; but every Member should ente r completely free to
exercise his own judgment on all affairs that came before
him, and to act as be thought best or the public gotid.se.
(Hear, hear.) His constituents, however, ought to judge
if he acted consonant to their views. He, therefore, tffif
not object to the motion on the ground that the votes Sef
the Members should he known to their constituents. Nor
could he, after consideration, think that the publication
curs any breach of the privileges of the House. The pub-
lication of the debates took place by sufferance, and was
a breach of privilege; but the publication of the names of
Members was never so considered. It was, therefore, ori
very different grounds from those assigned by the Noble
Lor'd, that he could not accede to the motion. He cool.,
hardly think that the Hon. Gentleman was serious in
making it. If, when it appeared now to he necessary, it
was difficult to get correct lists, he believed time the attempt
to make those lists authentic and correct would be line
possible.—(No, no ; Hear.) He was surptised to hear that
doubt expressed by the Hon. Member ler Middlesex, for rid
man knew better than that Hon. Member the difficulty ef
making up those lists.—(Hear.) In general it was known
how most of the Members would vote before the division
took place, and the lists were nearly finished before the
division was done. If it was done as a matter of duty, the
lists would be either very inaccurate, or to make them ac-
curate would cause great delay. Nothing could be moil
convincing of the difficulties which belonged to the stibjetls
than the fact that the Honourable Mover, with all hie
abilities and ingenuity, could suggest no better plan than
i•is two boxes.—(Hear, and a laugh.) How were they
to compel Members to put their names into there boxes?
And how were they to be sure that no gentleman ever
put the name of another Member in by way of a juke?
(Hear, and a laugh.) In fact, too, the House would be
thrown into great confusion by the rush of gentlemen to
the table to put their names in the box. Looking
at all these things, he must say that he could not think
the Honourable Member meant seriously ro press his trio--
had wide!' awn that part of it which related to the pairing
tion to a division, particularly as the Honourable Member
off of the Members.—(Hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON said, if they admitted the princi-
ple, a Committee might arrange how the votes should be
recorded. At times great importance was attached to the
publication of the names. In Canada, the votes alwaye
contained the names of the majorities and minorities..—e
(Hear, and a laugh.) The House of Assembly was not
indeed so large and so numerous as the House of Com-
inone—(Hear)—but theprinciple was the same.—(Oh, Of!.
Colonel DAVIES thought the plan would be us-ful if
it were practicable, but hedoubted the practicability. There
were more difficulties in the way of it than the Hon.
Member seemed to imagine. he minority of 138 had
been already referred to. Why, on that occasion, a desert
gentlemen were going round the House asking every Mew
her what was his name.—(A laugh.) After all Ellie
ouble, there were about twenty names incorrectly given.
He could not acquiesce in the motion at present, though,
if any method could be devised for taking dawn the names
correctly, without wasting time, it should have his sup.
port.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME knew from experience that the names of
658 Members could be called over in half an hour. He
did not like the plan of the boxes; but there would be no
difficulty on the plan he had hinted at, of making lists of
the majorities and minorities.--(Question.)
Sir R. PEEL cou'd not conceive what object could be
gained by the motion. The Hon. Member's plan won! I
Ire impracticable ; and, if practicable, it would not neces-
sarily insure accuracy. If the motion was successful, it
would give rise to many petty motiena. Members would
site's press motions to a division, which they would not
otherwise trouble themselves about, and it would lead to a
great waste of tune. It would be, in fact, a public nuisance.o...
(Hear.) [Mr. Hume—There would be no inconvenience.l
What ! no inconvenience? Why, suppose a man voted black
wee white—(A laugh)—would it be no inconvenience that
iris vote was so recorded without any explanation ?—( Hear. )
Suppose a case of a Russian Dutch Loan, which an Hon.
Member thought a case of profligate expenditure, and yet
voted for it, would not that Member's vote be erroneously
judged of, if the vote only were known? Tire Hon.
Member might explain that he had voted so to save the
Ministers—to protect the Reftom Bill—or for softie other
',pally good reason ; but those who reid only the votes
would not know that, and the Hon. Member would be
condemned. The present mole of managing the votes
was better than that. He must add, that he thought that
Members were responsible to their constituents for their
votes ; but God forbid that any constituency should judge
any Meuaber from an individual vote. They must take all
his votes, and, his whole conduct into consideration. The
lien. Gentleman had challenged him to show any incon-
venience from this plan, and he had answered the ceallenge,
by showing that a gentleman who voted black was white
was liable to an erroneous construcion of his conduct.
Mr. HUME—(Cries of " Spoke.") After a short
tittle, the Hon. Member obtained a hearing. He was un-
derstood to say, that he was not ashamed of his vote on the
Russian-Dutch Loan—that he would vote so again—and
that be had published the lists of the majority and mino-
tity on that occasion.
Captain BERKELEY was opposed to the motion. He
had never given any pledge, and never would give one. If
his constituents could not trust him, the sooner the con-
nection between them was cut the better.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROBERT STUART was opposed to any plan
which would increase the time now occupied in taking a
division. The Hon. Member for Middlesex proposed to
call over the House on every division, and thus ascertain
how every Member would vote, a plan which according to
the Hon. Member would occupy half an hour. In the
last Parliament a Committee had divided thirteen times in
an hour and a half, 42 Members being present, on which
occasion had the plan of the Hon. Member been adopted
six hours and a half would have been wasted. He was
not ashamed of any votes he had given, he was most
anxious that full publicity should be given to his
v7ites ; and on a recent occasion, as no list of the
to ijority had then been published he wrote to communi-
cate to his constituents the manner in which he had voted.
He must protest against the doctrine laid down by the
Noble Lord, the Member for Norwich, that any Hon.
Member was irresponsible for his votes to his constituents.
It savoured too much of the old leaven of corruption to
hold forth that any man was the representative of his own
()pinion, and not those of his constituents.
Lord STORMONT explained, but he was not audible.
Mr. AGLIONBY would not vote for the plan of the
Member for Colchester, but would vote for the principle.
1; was most desirable for the country to know the votes of
every Member, and as he understood that the Hon. Mem.
her's plan was not involved in the motion, he should cer-
tainly vote for it.
An HON. MEMBER could not concur with the propc-
sition of the Member for Colchester, but he was willing
to concur in any measure for giving an accurate report of
the divisions in the House which might be practicable.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY was glad that the Noble Lord
(Stormont) had at length been brought to speak with
inure deference of a popular constituency, and he hoped
Remarks had
that he would soon be induced to designate the people of
England by some more respectful term than that of mereb
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