The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-28 00:00:00

ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE.

OXFORD CIRCUIT.—READING, FEB. 26.
The business of these assizes commenced at the town
of Reading yesterday, when the commis ion was opened
by Mr. Justice Park and Mr. Justice Patteson, after
which the grand jury were charged. The courts were
opened for trials at 9 o'clock this day. The came list is
very light, there being five cases, of which two are spe-
cial juries. _

THE KING, ON THE PROSECUTION OF THE BANK OF ENG-

LAND, V. WILLIAM WILLIAMS.
The prisoner was indicted for uttering a forged Bank
of England note with intent to defraud the Bank of
England.
Mr. Justice PArrEsorr summed up the case to the jury,
who found the prisoner guilty, and he was sentenced to he
transported for life ; the learned Judge stating that lie had
no discretion in this case, but was hound to pass that
sentence upon him. The legislature had remitted the ca-
pital punishment, but had fixed a certain punishment in-
stead. That bad not yet produced the beneficial result
which was expected, but he hoped that in a shott time it
would be found that the alteration had been successful in
the repression of the crime of forgery.

THURSDAY, FEB. 27.
The grand jury have returned a true bill against several
Eton scholars for a riot, in breaking the windows of a
hair-dresser at Windsor on the last Windsor fair-day.

NORTHERN CIRCUIT.--Dußibilf, FEL 25.

John Weir was put to the bar charged with having on
the night of Tuesday, the 18th of February, feloniously
and burglariously broken and entered the dwelling-house
of Andrew Stodhart, at South Shields, with intent to
commit felony therein.

The learned Judge summed up the case to the jury,
who, after a short deliberation, found the prisoner—
Guilty.
He was then called upon to say why judgment of death
should not be recorded against him, which was accord-
ingly done. The learned Judge said his life would be
spared, and he would inquire into the case, and if. any
mitigating circumstances appeared, the prisoner should
have the benefit of them.

HOME CIRCUIT.--.HERTFORD, FEB. 27.
Lord LYNDHURST prtsided in the Nisi Prius Court to-
day for the trial of common jury causes, none of which
were of the slightest interest, except to the parties. There
are 12 cases on the list for trial.

Thomas Smith, alias Salisbury, alias William Hud-
son, was indicted for stealing a mule belonging to a farmer
at Warbys, in Huntingdonshire.
The jury returned a verdict of acquittal.
A little urchin, aged 14, was found Guilty of stealing
aid. from a child who was returning from a shop whither
he had been sent on an errand.

The Jury recommended him to mercy, on account of
his age.

The learned Judge should carry the recommendation
into effect by transporting him for seven years, care being
taken, under the proper authorities, that he was sent to
some school, where his morals would be attended to.
The child was committed in January last.

Recent letters from Turin describe the doings
at the en bassy there as very gay. Lady Foster had given
a magnificent Bal Costume; Some of the characters were
from Quentin Durward.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEB. 27.

The house assembled shortly after five o'clock.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY reported that the com-
mittee appointed to regulate the journals of the house, had
the fifth volume ready for delivery.
The Bishop of LONDON presented petitions from
Stanley and Winchampton, in the county of Dorset, and
from the parish of St. Peter, Cornhill, praying for the
introduction of some measure for the better observance of
the Sibbath.

Lord POLTIMORE presented petitions from the Pro-
testant di,sentTs of Biddiford and East Bewdley, in the
county of Devon, praying for relief from the disabilities
under which they laboured.
Lord KING presented a petition from the ratepayers of
a parish in Surrey, praying for the continuation of the
Labour Rate Act.

Lord LITTLETON presented petitions from the Pro-
testant dissenters of Worcester, Evesham, Hatesowen, and
Stourbridge, praying for relief from the disabilities under
which they laboured. The noble lord observed that one
of the petitions complained that the chapels of dissenters
were not protected by the same laws as those which pro-
tectedr the church, and also contained an allegation
to which it was not in his power to give an
assent, namely, that the protestant dissenters were as
numerous as the members of the church of England.
The noble lord also presented petitions from the minister,
churchwardens, and householders of the parish of Hagley,
and also from a parish in Stafford against the further con-
tinuance of beershops. The petitioners stated that they
felt nodoubt that the measure which hail been introduced for
the establishment of these houses had been brought forward
with the best intentions possible, but while they admitted
that, they could not but state that they had been productive
of great mischief. The noble lord fully concurred in the
statements of the petition, and expressed a sincere hope
that the session would not be allowed to pass without some
effectual remedy being applied to the nuisance.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.

Mr. BERNAL, and others, from the Commons,
brought up the Exchequer Bills' Bill and the Extent in
Aids' Bill, which,
Oa the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, were
severally read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time tomorrow. _ _ _

Lord FOLEY presented a petition from the protestant
dissenters in the county of Worcester, praying for relief.
Lord DACRE presented a similar petition from Saw-
bridgeworth in the county of Hertford.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented petitions from
Wigton and Kirton, in the county of Lincoln, in favour
of the Labour Rate Bill.
On the motion of the NOBLE DUKE, the Marquis of
Lansdowne was added to the committee on the county
rate ; and Mr. Charles Lawson, the cleik of the peace fur
the county of Surrey, and Mr. Allen, the clerk of the
peace for the county of Middlesex, were summoned to give
evidence before that committee.
The house then adjourned until to-morrow at half-past
three.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEE. 27.
The SPEAKER took the chair at a few minutes past five
o'clock.
The Marquis of CHANDOS slid be had a great many
petitions to present from places in the county of Bucks,
complaining of the distress under which the agricultural
interests laboured ; one from Gloucester, praying for a
repeal of the malt duty, and several from places in York-
shire, complaining that the agricultural classes were labour.
ing under very great distress, and praying for relief.
Lord GEORGE SOMERSET brought in a Bill rela
lative to the Mumbles Lighthouses, which was read a first
time. . .

Mr. J. MAXWELL presented a petition from Dun-
fermline in Scotland, against church patronage.
Col,}nel CONOLLY liegked to ask if it was the inten-
tion of his .Maje,ty's government to alter or amend the
Grand Jury Bill introduced last session ? The more he
heard of that bill, the less likely he thought it to work well
in Ireland.

The SPEAKER said there was no question before the
house.

Mr. LITTLETON said he had no objection to answer
the hon. and gallant member's question ; it was not the
intention of Ministers to make any alteration in that bill.
It bad only been passed last session, and surely they should
have at least one year's experience of the mode of its opera-
tion before they adopted any measures for its amendment.

Mr. GUEST moved for returns of all the houses
occupied at the public expense, as residencies for public
officers in London and Westminster, with the amount
paid for rent, repairs, and furniture, from the year 1828
to 1833 both inclusive.
The same How. MEmixit moved for returns of the
expenditure for the amount of the furniture supplied to
the officers and courts of law at Westminster for one year,
ending the sth of January, 1834. The same hon. mem-
ber moved fix returns of the different lunatic asylums in
England and Wdles, which have been erected wholly or in
part at the public expense, together with a list of the di-
rectors of such establishment,, and the amount expended
b, them for furniture, repairs, &c., together with the
largest numbers of male and female lunatics confined at
any one time in such establishments.
REDUCTION OF THE MALT TAX.

Sir W. INGILBY rose for the purpose of bringing
forward a question which he, last year, had bad the
satisfaction of bringing before the house.—(ll..ar, bear,
hear.) He was a little better prepared on this oc-
casion than on the last, in consequence of the reply
he had got from the noble lord opposite, that it was an
improper mode of proceeding for a countryman to come
down to the house—(Hear, and laughter)—like a
man from his native hills, altogether unprepared
with a substitute for a reduction which he asked for,
amounting to about four millions of income.—(Hear,
hear.) He was quite aware of the difficulty of
remitting a large sum in the way of taxation from
the Exchequer, without giving some evidence practically
of how other sums might be raised in its place. He
begged to observe to an hon. member whom he saw in his
place, that so far from bringing forward the motion
for the purpose of embarrassing Government, he had
taken as much uains to support the present ministers as
any man in the house, and he altogether, on
the present occasion, disclaimed any notions of hostility
towards Government. His object was to aid the noble
lord with the means of finding funds to enable him to go
on.—(Hear, and loud laughter.) It would appear to
some ludicrous that he should rise up and propose means
of supplying the coffers of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer ; but the noble lord would hear, by and bye,
that be had his budget to produce—(Laughter)—and he
was confident that that budget would give more satisfaction
to the country than any budget produced in that house for
the last seventy years.—(A laugh.) It was unnecessary
for him to repeat the arguments made use of last
session, as well as in the course of the present,
short as it had been, in favour of a repeal of the
malt tax. Much of the dismay which had been
spread throughout the country—the horrible resorts
of incendiaries, and acts of violence of various indivi-
duals, be believed, took their origin from the continuance
of this tax. Its removal would be the me ins of abolishing
the " tiddlywink" houses, of which he had so many letters
in complaint from his country friends. By the abolition
of this tax he would enable the country people to do as they
did in the good old times of their fathers—drink wholesome
beverage; he would get rid of, also, the terrible system
of gin and dram.drinking. He would render the greatest
service to the noble lord opposite as well as to the
country at large, if he scucceeded, as he fondly
hoped be should, in getting rid of this most
odious tax. He, himself, could not understand a great
deal of the argument that had been raised against it ;
be had yet to learn that because a tax was once
oi mf pjousdegdm, e
nit t
Hs
e !r: thereforehear, tar:ld continuela
u laughter.)
h ;1. until
Thethe
nobleday
lord said last year that the consideration of removing
theh Exchequer
this
most
in
this tax might hereafter be brought on the taps, provided
supplying
weremealniesuofw
devhiasted
hoef otwhearawihseousnu,pf
abominable tax.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Not only
should he suggest those means, but he would actually enable
the noble lord by his budget to see how he might take off
also the house and window tax.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He was glad to observe hon. gentlemen op-
posite in such good-humour; as from that he augured a
good result.--(Hear.) He was rather sorry that the
gallant colonel who bolted --(Loud cheers) --the
other night had left it in his hands to advocate
for the inhabitants of Westminster, relief from the house
and window taxes. He thought it would have been much
better for the gallant colonel to have stood to his post,
rather than have deserted it, and left the business to de
volve on him, in addition to his own rural duty.--
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It had been said that no
doubt be would stand up for the landed interest ;
but the house might depend on his making an
equal stand for his brethren in town as well as in the
country.—(Cheers.) And if his policy were to be adopted,
he would pledge himself that it would be beneficial both
to town and country. He bad to propose by his budget,
not only to take off the malt duty, but in the end to have
the satisfaction of preceding the metropolitan members,

by having afforded to their constituents, of the free will
and accord of Government, a reducti n of the window
duty. and that too without those constituents having to
call at his house in Berkeley-square in deputation
hear)—or without raising that clamour,
in respect of which it had been said they had already
obtained a part. He looked on that part of his Majesty's
speech which condoled with the state of the agricultural
interests as deserving of particular attention, and he should
not lose sight of it. He would state that which, if the
noble lord would only adopt, would enable him to do justice
to that part of his Majesty's speech. He was happy to
see in the house the right hon. member far Tamworth,
as on this occasion he looked forward to some aid
from him.—(Hear, hear, and laughter) He did not
understand Parliament quite practically enough yet to
know what the cheer he heard from the right
honourable gentleman meant. If be supposed that he
(Sir W. I.), an ancient Whig, not of hours', but
of many years' standing, had joined gratuitously the
power of his eloquence—(Laughter)—if the right
honourable gentleman supposed that he was going
to bring that eloquence to the aid of the ancient Tory
camp, he would find himself vastly mistaken.—(Hear. )
Standing there, he acknowledged no distinct party.
He had come down, right or wrong, to support the pro.
fpoors itthi oen r he
lei
ehfaodf ttahkeeang
ruipe anditi,r
awl ha
and
cdh
ehoeobone I ieerveei
ad t l
obtee
reel:
tkse,
and not for the sake of putting a sixpence into his own
pocket, or advancing his own private views in any way.
The effect of repealing this tax would he to produce a
better market for the commodity. It would not lower the
rents, and would give relief to the middle and lower classes
solely. Were hon. gentlemen aware that the people
laboured under two grievous necessities—one of drinking
water, the other of drinking gin ?..—(Hear.) By some
p articular benevolence of his Majesty's government,
gin had been rendered so cheap that a man could swan in
it almost for half-a-crown.—(Laughter.) Get rta of the
malt tax and the cottager would not be reduced
.to
the necessity of drinking unwholesome ardent liquor for
want of good beer. He would have the advantage of
enjoying the same drink now that he had fifty years ago.
It appeared in evidence given before a committee in 1821,
that there was not a single man in a parish of a Mr.
Elmore who had not a barrel of ale in his house. Who
had that now ? He would say, not one. The consequence
was that the cottager went to the " Tiddy-le-wink" and
drank gin. Nothing could be better than the budget he
would produce, and he would inform the noble lord an
hon. memb-rs that it was quite practical, and afforded
more than an adequate substitute for the amount taken
from the revenue by the repeal of the malt tax.—
(Hear, hear.) The right honourable baronet said last
session that be was astonished how persons could come
dawn to that house, and propose so great a reduction,
without, at the same time, any feasible plan for replacing
it in the exchequer. These might not be the exact words
of the right hon. gentleman, but it was the subject of his
objection. He (Sir W. Ingilby) would not delay the
house longer, but immediately produce his budget. It
was drawn up by himself, and entit'ed " the budget of the
Knight of Linccen, recently promoted to the office of
Chance'lor of the Exchequer," and he hoped not for long.
—(A laugh.) The amount of the malt tax of the United
Kingdom, in 1832, was 4,845,000!., the duty upon
malt being 2s. 7d. per bushe:. Now he had stated
that the repeal of this tax would go a very long
way to increase the comforts of the citizens in
humble life and the middling classes. The objections
to its repeal were, that the public burdens would not al-
low it. How was this to be remedied ? The noble lord
had not stated that he had any intention to relieve the
country from this excessive and tremendous burden. lie
(Sir William lngiltty) would have the noble lord
to change the course of his councils, and come
forward with the liberal measure, to get rid of
this burden. He (Sir W. I ) would make up the deficiency.
—(A laugh.) The first thing he had to propose was,
he knew it was a very odious proposition—he knew it
would be very ungracious for the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, to come forward and tax any of his Majesty's lieges,
particularly to propose a tax upon men who had been lately
relieved from taxation. The brewers had been relieved
front the beer tax. Now, he would say unto the brewers,
you get good malt for nothing, you have been relieved
from the inquisition of the exciseman, from his prying eyes,
and the abomination of his visits; it would be but fair, it
in return you would submit to a small tax upon every
barrel of ale you brew. —(A laugh.) He would ask whether
the hon. members who laughed were brewers or not?—
(A laugh.) He was well aware that the repeal of
the
malt tax would not be found so very objectionable if, in-
stead of taking out, it would put money into the pockets
of the brewers, and if it would enable them to off ct
a profit of six shillings per barrel upon their beer.
Under the circumstances which he had stated, the malt
duty, be contended, could Ile easily spared ; but he wished,
in his view of the case, to place it as low as possible, and
not to levy more upon the people than was absolutely neces-
sary for thepurposes of the state, and he would therefore pro-
pose a tax of 6s. on the brewers which would amount to a
million and-a-half. The second article to be produced
from his budget was a duty on foreign wise.—(Loud
cries of" Hear, hear.") He took that fie eign wine which
was of a costly and expensive description, such as the
members of the House of Commons were in the habit
of drinking, rather than that which was drunk by the
tnore moderate part of the community.—(A laugh.) It
was, in fact, a tax against himself, for he preferred
thinking Champagne and Claret, although he might
pay a higher price for it. He would propose
an additional duty on all foreign wines excepting
Cape.—(Hear, and a laugh.) It was quite necessary,
although hon. members might laughs, that his budget
should not only be heard but clearly understood.
He would increase the duty on all foreign wines, except
Cape, but not exactly in the same proportion. On Por-
tuguese and Spanish wines, which were the description
generally used by the middling classes, he would make
but a small increase, while on the French, the Rhenish,
and all the nobler wines—(A laugh)—he would raise it
at once from ss. 6d., which was the present duty—he
now came to a most awful tax—to 15s.—(Loud
laughter.) He knew that was a most grievous tax for
the Lords and Commons to pay, but it was rather more
courteous to tax themselves a little, in order to let the poor
man have his malt cheap. That he considered an ample
apology for his proposition, and by the imposition of that
tax, the House of Commons would nobly rebut the charge
that was generally made against them of being so very
jealous of taxing themselves.—(Cries of "Amount.") The
amount of that increase he estimated at 237,000!.
He hoped the house would consider that to he a proper
tax. Another tax he proposed was one which he consi-
dered worthy of the consideration of the house and the
country—he meant the gin tax ; but fearful that some mis-
chief might occur, or some objections to it might proceed
taxf roto
shouldthe Chancellorb
eraised
of
2.6 Exchequer,d. a g
he
gallon.—(Hear proposedn.—
Haoetary thisand
laughter.) He might perhaps have proposed to have
raised it ss. or 7s. a gallon, but lest that
.when the
noble lord re-entered upon his office, he might make
an objection to it on account of illicit distilleries
or the increase of smuggling, he bad taken it at a lower
rate—as low a rate of duty as could with any degree of con-
sistency be allowed. He only proposed to increase the
ei
eaor(tet Ler
offi-
cer,ce°atuisygde
pay of the gin temples from the present duty to one
half a crown per gallon.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
joem(y
Ha_wt
eehati aytr
haeam ap came to
intendedet
aoanr2de
,dslbaoytuoir
,hbat
)giet
raising
great
national for, the very great accuracy
aablnehdioghifttilawhAeaiinssaojouensfiettigyou,sfrteagosi—p.
almostlfla uo laughter)—made t emr
incredible)u—c h
m thatad e
pehappy me lium—(Laughter)—
He considered that not to be high enough to permit
illicitt
tHh eis
had
saudm t distillationho then
n ma otnaxe
y;
propose,
t was
so
se noten,
smuggling—it
na
tdi
otnhael
benefitgreat
g foowordatsht be apateoh
when he resumed his situation again, to do a r •
tosvi
novel nature. What be was going to propose might ex-
cite the risibility of that house ; but never mind that—(A
laugh),-he meant to let the nation see what that propo-
sition was.—(Hear, hear.) He was perfectly sure that
there was no gentleman in that house, or indeed
in that town, but was aware of the enormous, profligacy
that was •
carried on in many bad houses within it.—(lm-
mense laughter.) He was going to take a deliberative
walk through London, in order to see the number of
those houses that existed within it.—(Heate hear.) In
sumitoat would make
e he
would not vouch
the immediate neighbourhood of the house, he puuld find
many such houses as the Athenaeum. He would speak
the awful word, he meant to let fly at the hells of Lon-
don.—(Laughter.) He did not know why they should
escape contribution to the revenue, when it wes found
that the kw was not strong enough to put them
down.—(Hear, hear.) ft was well known, that
they did exist, therefore he saw no reason why some
source of revenue might not be derived from them. Why
should a pair of the greatest scoundrels in Europe be al-
lowed to play night after night in order to entrap the youth
fresh from Oxford into the same exciting game ? Why
should a pair of mountebanks in masks, and pretending to
throw dice for thousands, and no stop being put to it—
wby should they not contribute to the resources of the coun-
try laugh.) If the law of the land was not strong
enough to put down these pestilential shops, surely it was
worth the consideration of the exaninister, when he resumed
his office—(Much laughter)--how far that hint might

that 10151
be acted on. He was willing to give -
it was very strongly oppce,ed.—(Much Ira
Certainly he would give it up with. more gaosiceo,
temper than some honourable gentlemen._ and
lords had • done upon another occasion(La go,
but when he found that there ere..3.°Y__,,oo
thieves having the next door to the Bishop
_teb°o7.
thought it was high time something sho something
they could not be put &m it", let them, do
oiled; I
benefit of their fellow subjects He
fore, that each of those
tion
How many houses there were of that d
f thiPem hi
not know, never having been in any
o rhaps he
police
when nor o
iruhad magistrates
g u t
hisn
coming forward with his present object, pe
u..
an
have inquired how many there were--be shorld n
for a license the small sum ovfagla,bo°o°eoiids/r:;bl%auuldf
the
In the police.offices, or the magistrates,
thato De;
office.—(Hear.) He believed, however,
there was nothing of their real number knott
deficiency in the ex. Chancellor
the Horne-office or at the police-offiees. He
these vagabonds down at 50/., and therefore
ftfl
be a revenue of 50,000/. a ye it from the bells o
(Hear and laughter.) His next proposition to In
was this.—(Hear, hear.) He came now to th
as they were celled, who attended those houses
know why the gentleman who went there for
ewthraonaYtthcuintg,
ment should not be taxed, or should pc
a license as he did to go a shooring•--(""
He did not know why he should not take
also to go to hell.—(Tremendous laughter.)
Sir R. INGLIS rose to order. He did
in an assembly of Christians such expressii
used.—(Cr es " Oh, oh
Sir W. INGILBY resumed. He
admit
:bndo uht
bell,t hn rr
was not such as ought to be addressed to
He did not want the honourable baronet
of the Excheqeu
license.—(Laughter.) He would calcu
tlemen, or what were termed gentlem
legs, and the complete omnium Bathe
quented those places, he would put
5,000, and that would make 50,000/.
(An Hon. Gentleman—Only 10/. ane
was only the first specimen, or outli
but it would serve to show that a e
of this description could be obtain,
the accounts for the noble lord.—(
He hoped the noble lord liked the prog
in the means of raising money for the
(Hear, bear, and great laughter.)
a mere touch of what he inte
the subject of taxation. He stood !
a system of taxation, that would outr
s
notorious and Right Hon. William
laughter.) He stood pledged pro!
to meet she exigencies of the state
The noble lord opposite, when he aga
of the Exchequer, need not ge under
difficulty about the 1,200,000/. li
the other night, a he (Sir Win.
him an equitable and just way of r
fur
any expense, and that too witho
lion. member for Middlesex, wit'
he would point out a mode of red:
would be satisfactory to the greater'
—(Great laughter.) Before he cm
al this he would give tie noble le
he should relieve the lower c
turlcradpau:,
vv,agenent
Chancellor
(Hear.) With what he had alrea
a little risibility upon the counter
but he now came to a monstru
question as to finance, and i
him in this, it would show a
rl,lorhoafdthetoExpcahyequaer,t
In bringing forward this point,
lord opposite (Althorp), who h
travels had to pay a tax ; a to
er.)
itles
should not Marquises and
yanilwdiet(hinioosuitn
travellers in their way, be als
Tue duke, viscount, baronet
should be taxed. All honou
taxed ad valorens.—(GreAt 1
templated in this way was n
to the knight the scale of
It ended with the knight,
It exempted ladies ; no mat
in their own right, or for tu
any sort—it excepted them
to this tax that any pe
need not du so—(Great I
they should relinquish t
hardship, 1001. or 501. a •
the consolation that this
that is, if lie wished to re
A duke was put don
ought to be 1001. A
was unnecessary to go
the house that an known
sue—it was put upon th
pay it, and the grea'
people that they could p
a•half would be the prom
tax laid on them.
The produce of all the•
lected being 4,976,00(
thus leaving a balanc
not in this sum includi
leave him, or rather
surplus of 4,500/, 1
sum. This was to I
peal. The gallant
minster) might sa'
was taking great
to do good to t
they, the men of t
gallant colonel has
place and leave
(Sir William log'
a budget for the
say to Lord Althoff
over to the metrop
ask—take this sr
window duty, h
it. He would
in civil and n
not going to for
shops, nor to it
thing. He hop
great calculator,
had proposed
and window tai
he would levy
the transfer of
tacking public
a tax upon tht
then from the
means to get r
as well as eve'
the Governr
He contende
bad alluded
there could
tax.--(Heat
and it was
There we
u
he was nr
reciprocity distinctions
taies pressingt anti
shoes and
He thoug'
functions
up the w
in introdi
the desir
who hie
a substiti
made hi'
a fit sub
Filially,
cher tro
to prop
noble I,
—(A !
him w
it for
hear.)
" Thi
purpt
tially
T'
tion,
in ti
—(
muir
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in
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liclself• No doubt every hon. member in that house well
understood the pressure of the malt tax on all classes, and
• it Was not the first time that he had hod occasion to call
the attention of the house to the distress of the agricultural
!Josses, and with itICS Maesty's s
the distress of the labouring
j classes.
speech had certainly led him to hope that
anima measure frinn the Government itself would be
brought forward on this question.—(Hear, hear, hear
As that was
baronet had not the case, and at th rs e honouble
introdced this shld supoit bins fo ,
be counsidered thatmotion he
it would be forp the
te of the government and the country at large,
. that it should be acceded to. --(Hear, hear, hear.) The
house was asked decde how much or how little
of not to
• the duty should or should not be taken off, but
it sr
aa asked to go into a committee, and inquire whether
:h" Was practicable to repeal it altogether. Was there an
oitnh.:::totabaetti.
sianythat house who could put his hand upon
he would refuse to go into a committee?
He heart
. the house would. by its conduct that
trofing for a committee show that they had the
tc4ests of the country at heart. He hoped and trusted
tbia motion would succeed.
'4,2 Motion was then read from the chair, and, after a
e°ll
hw
4Zerablepause, no member rising, the question was put,
-bat:Yes having answered the calls put to them from
L Mr* iARBURTON rose (loud calls were made for
Althorp but his Lordship not answering) : the
on, member addressed the.
.house., and said, that had the
nu b
, • tintnubeen one for inquiring into general taxation, the
oid.o not only have supported it, but have been most
,11.1„,? ,to Second ir. He, however, looked upon the ino-
)1;1 °lin'ever disguised it might be, as a nude by which
•kn„illgriclturists sought to put their hands into the
f „re', pockets—(No, )—to take away the revenue
4'l' them and pocket it themselves.—(No, no.) The
Zet of the hon. baronet's motion—setting aside all the
atities of big speech—was to do away with the malt
ti.ed renew the beer tax. To bear the hon. baronet's
against wine and spirits, one would have thought
Wrilloidg fa temperance society. He (Mr. W.)
as any one to let the poor people have
~),Ltitalesonie a beverage as beer at a lower price, yet,
ti;,7b.lie looked at the evidence given before the commit-
e*. .t Year, by almost all the clergymen and magistrates
linL :7°, they all attributed the mischief and demoralize-
of '°ieh had become so prevalent to the lowered price
(No, no)—and to the beer-shops.—(Hear. hear. )
• eit'ati of the hon. baronet was to take the tax from
l'..rmvers and to put it on the poor consumers. This
°lliettd to.
ENETT denied that any evidence before the
• tred-htee bad gone to attribute demoraliz ition to the low-
s'sPrieo' re",cLe of beer. The complaint had been of the high
dogs-',uter and the low price of spirits, which had
.in-
beer tae labourers to take the latter instead of drinking
beta%,lle thought that the malt duty should be reduced
. re thought that its reduction would enable ti e
*O4l e,'aelea to drink a wholessme bevetage. Nor
pr „d, '"o benefits be confined to them, for, under the
Illteilt.:!Ystern quantities of barley remained on hand till
tatit."l4 was then given to the pigs, which, if the duty on
• *el.,. reduced to a reasonable amount, would be ap-
dt -s,„
- the use of man. A substitute for the reduced
*child be amply supplied by an increase on that of
• • benl• Piland spirits. A reduction of this duty would not only
• aiha t 6Towers of barley, but the consumer would be equally
dri4taged, and the poor roan who now was forced to
Itearitwater, would be enabled to drink beer. The only
°rooms to which the landed interest could now resort,
haw be to institute low prices ; for assuredly the clamour
• attd-"' against the corn laws would produce their ultimate,
tottt_iarfotthediirstparniteerse;peal; and the best way of providing
the evil day, would be for the agriculturists to
and this they could only do by pro-
, %Zit! the repeal of all the taxes which bore upon pro.-
. he.pe industry. As a substitute for these latter taxes
:::...7.lapeeroavrediadogf a property tax, because it taxed every
to his means of payment. He had fur
sthi!6 Years been watching the progress of this tax,
torso, bad Some years ago been run down by the boil.
had el
bamours of a number of persons, most of whom
and bl4:4l3t•rty at all, who not only assembled together
by
ey,°ured against the tax themselves, but prevented,
• Prope -e-7 insult and outrage, poeople really possessed of
atlf stoop and who were realy in favour of the
'Nor "ktig others, from coming near, or expressing their
been ;Li° opinion : the property tax had in consequence
hoped" down for the time, but it was now about, and he
coineti:rilY, to be run up again.
• that it eEVANS took this opportunity of explaining
dow tan : not through any desire of continuing the win-
s.' !ftward has P°4 big constituency that he had not brought
°Y a d„n,,Pr°Poeed motion ; but he had been waited on
44, ae wank rain the parish of Marylebone to r, quest
from., `17.1 r:ng it forward, and by another deputation
• tmtwe vcite, helwitto:VireBtcninater, at which, by an unani-
present.
, ing parish,Aat aSaimotiblareerrqUeBtell to abstain from pressing it at
use tea
also of this and an adjoin-
, Were of opinion, that, within
had been expressed. They
. ,kore than to the as
sottet Col;ancellor would not repeal
;ltd that if either the house or window :he for t
ai
xn a
btaxes,
op. sone, it were better to get rid of that which
v. 7,1 the heaviest. The house tax, it was considered,
4117 looked upon as the more oppressive and unjust one,
f0p1414 both COW,' not.l
be repealed, it was thought better
thh. a Present not to put forward the lesser ones. On
pleeollot, and not through a want of desire to press
et,:ptal of the window tax, to which he strongly oh-
'.
iltb.7? be delayed his motion.—(Loud cries of " Qthstion,
attlik°,l3l" and“ Order.") He made this statement in
befoss.° 'bow why he could not support the proposition
eer— the house. If reduction could take place only to
tantitcin amount, it was not to the relief of the agricul-
!tie ,iinereet it should be applied. The wants of the
Atsou,d.tu,timl bad been much exaggerated ; and with so
zro.teas!dintiutts.:tyon
otohdemte,
• in -.111 4 Party in the house, when actual distress really
ltef
itteo2llnion interest with tFheivme,
could not find it difficult to pro-
saixatdhstbioaf
rathriesthaoluwsaeysshbareead
olshits for attention and redress.
tioo 1 DAVIES insisted that there was no distinc-
nits interests in the question before the house. It wit
trh„._ a.question relating to those pests the beer-shops,
allele detuoralising influence extended to a degree scarcely
.. %sold in the time of Walpole, when it was found ne-
1411!thort°thtae*llpirits so very. highly. It was a question
aLltoprove domestic habits of the humbler classes should
201114 get and their characters exalted—whether they
°f door ittaate for the enjoyments of home, and those
since temptations be done away with.—(Hear.
'to 7 the
of the duty on spirits from Ils.. Bd.f %. there h
• I,„glaud fr had been an increase in the consutup,ion of
' tTs front "I 3,400,000 gallons to 3,700,000 ; in Scut-
th ninetniniot°o millions to five; and in Ireland frorn two
seleLtnotim. °et; To get rid of this evil was the object
the
,het 1 'le did not perceive to what extent
tet: resionnnsiotereat would be served by the measure, as
, tit 4ctibt rine: 11 of the beer tax would operate as. a couu-
, *al on
cecen; and concluded by repeating that
Attu G18134,;(18e of jealousy in the proposition.
sun- Rare it a IINE said that the upholders of the raea-
• " on the curious sort of support by throwing all the
ii7ted thatuonourable baronet who moved it. It ap-
.l4Mitte, t the object of the motion was to procure a
(\ could ° inquire whether the whole or a part of the
• cp ste rent t
iv (wed.
the boIeW"GILBY explained that it was a committee
so
• sly use.
' litaught still contended that it was a singu
itt-esqful forward motion, which could not hope to be
, on, He believed that any benefit accruing frots!
its, Noll be felt by the occupiers of clay land, andte
4tilteittltorel
co afford no relief to the lower classes. of
theh
teli Pdant ei tfluttmitY. It would be of no service tod
ttO~essipt
talel:ti of. agricultural labourers, who. would fin
th demand.
the price of consumption, but by
IN-411 pr relief He He admitted there would be some
nlttrtien
toilet, but as it would not be by any means in
lit his the distress., it would end in disappoint-
. Ivarhtlatil the °Pinion, the agriculturists would neverbe
A 1)14i
'l"tOt and okl occupiers and holders of land were
lo rontilkat trit,eihwPt away.--(A laugh.) He would ex-
Ca " tic • had been to hon, gentlemen the cause of
earn tit
'or tiin °le Who By the old owners and occupiers he
Pelted , (Platter were tied down by old engagements, who,
hiroiniey
.° of corn, which they bought, were Comt-
ism knot ;° Pay for four.--( Hear, hear, hear.) He
°yell Itcn orsieltklPaee of ten thousand acres in Stafford,
Itere ',Ln to" had been born, and it was equally
*ha ctiere w another hon. gentleman in that house,
had 5441 bei a° not be found one of those occupiers
'l*
the d The
basin no t an twenty years ago. y
but tie course of nature, or the change
t.ouset, and te tvere annihilated by the operation of
stklrrotved°l.istl °Ow inmates of gaols, of poor-
vated Papo,4"e my I u pos.—( Hear, hear.) They
&den . 'Nal to gold
4,'l°°eY h, th uh it had been
ti„ that hose
but the con-
-4,11
in
etedaonnienfie
confidence
value; 1'1,,,7*--(Hear, hear,)e'and
bad beeny their
• *1,41 that sons
Lad lately occurred in
ieersclltrnpleatetPreated its indignation at any language
nicteditoopteteast
ofb-, or ceoan......tem(pt
%nit! .) thatU .4 breach of the public raids.—
thn.. potspoo,. lndignation he participated, but he
eaater, the act of 1819 as other
bor
4,414 any set, greatest cruelty and injustice ever in-
tinily andhear.) It might have
through ignorance, but why then

had it been followed by that of 1826 ?—(Hear, hear, and
Question. )
Colonel WOOD theirOit the hon. baronet trifled with a
subject of the greatest iie! 1):t ante. It was evidently im-
possible to effect the total t•• it, al, anti to raise a tantamount
income would be hoprdess. If the house consented to re-
peal one half the malt rex nod impose-al five shillings per
barrel on beer, it would not have the effect of inakino, beer
dearer, and yet the ge.a.est possible benefit would accrue.
If the house entertained 'lds proposition, he would have
no objection to go into committee.
Sir R. PEEL came down to the house under the im-
pression that the object was a proposition for the repeal of
the whole of the malt tax, nor was he sure that he knew
perfectly the true nature of the alteration, for the hon. ha-
tonet admitted that there would be but little relief conse-
quent op a partial repeal. Indeed he argued as if for the
whole, and proposed other sources of income. Instead of a
total repeal, it now appeared a motion for a committee of
the whole house, in which it was to be presumed the hon.
baronet intended to propose his specific measure. In the
present state of the revenue, he (Sir R. Peels would not
consent to such reduction. Every gentleman present had
a few nigh,s since heard the total surplus revenue calcu•
lated at 2,600,0001. Of this it was to be remembered
that 800.0001. was appropriated as the interest of the sum
of twenty millions for the emancipation of the negroes, to
which the honour of the I nose and of the country was
pledged. There then remained 1,800,0001., of which it
was proposed that 1,200,0001. should be appropriated
to the reduction of taxation. The house would not, there-
fore, think that, with the other claims and demands which
might occur, this sum was too large to meet the remain-
ing account of the country.—(Hear, and cheers.) He
did not think the noble lord had overrated the amount of
surplus at 1,500,0001., derived from the difference be-
tween the expenditure and revenue of last year; 500,0001.
of saving was calculated on the estimates, and 600,000/.
was reckoned upon by the noble lord as the increased
amount of the duty on tea. He did not, however, think
the noble lord could fairly calculate on such an additional
amount to he produced from tea. He said so the other
n•ght, and subsequent teflection hail convinced him that
the noble lord had miscalculated in this respect. The
noble lord calculated on the sale of 36 000,000 lbs. of tea
during the present year. It was certainly great presump-
tion• for him to offer any opinion in opposition to the
noble lord, but he was perfectly convinced that the noble
I, rd would not realise the amount he anticipated. He was
inclined to think the nehl- lord had made a great mistake
as to this duty. The East India Company was not hk sly to
realise in subsequent quarters a sale of 9,000,000 lbs.
The noble lord was bound to off-r that tea at certain
prices, and was not entitled to promote the sale of tea by
reducing the upset prices. If, then, the upset ratices were
retained, as they must be, he doubted much whether the
noble lord could dispose of anythin4 like the amount of
36,000,0001 b.,. so as to produce the sum of 600,0001. so
sanguinely calculated upon. Neither had the noble lord
taken into account the necessity for a larger establishment
of officers which an increased sale of tea would impose
upon the Government. There would be some serious re-
ductions to make under this head; for if the duty on tea
were to vary according to its quality, they must have an
increased establishment of excise officers to determine that
quality. He certainly did not think there would be more
than 2,600,0001. surplus; and this he would as a sincere
friend to the agricuhural interest take upon him to say,
that the agricultural interest stood a much greater chance
of reducing its burdens by maintaining public credit
than by coming to any resolution calculated to in-
jure it.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") So far as personal
interest could weigh with any man, it certainly was his
primary of ject to support the landed interest ; and he de-
clared it to be his fixed and determined opinion, that look-
ing to the present state of the public mind, and the present
prospect of diminishing the public burdens by diminishing
the interest on the funds, there was a better chance of
supporting public credit by a diminution of interest than
by a refusal of taxes to this serious amount. Indeed he
was astonished to hear no reference to the Four per Cents.
in the speech of the noble lord opposite. The hon. baronet
who brought forward the motion reminded him of an ob-
servation which be made last ye.ir, that those who came
forward to propose %great reduction of taxation were bound
to provide a substitute; and that, partially concurring in
the truth of that observation, he bad thought proper to
provide a substitute on the present occasion.—(A laugh.)
Now, the lion. baronet proposed to lay an increased tax
upon gin. For his part he had no objection to lay as heavy.
a tax upon gin as was consistent with its collection ; but if,
by laying an enormous tax upon gin, they were only giving
a direct advantage to the illicit trader, they would neither
increase the public revenue nor promote the public morality.
With regard to the appeal of the bun. baronet in favour of
the industrious classes, and his requisition that articles of
luxury should be taxed more heavily, he had no earthly
objection, provided the hon. baronet would show that the
consumption of those articles would not be diminished in
much greater propottion.—(Hear.) The hon. baronet
sitting there would doubtless bring forward what be con-
sid. red to be most cogent arguments ; but when the hon.
baronet came to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, he would
find that, whatever it might be in arithmetic, when deal-
ing with the produce of taxation two and two did not
always make four.—( Hear.) The hon. baronet would
frequently find himself disappointed if, by increasing duties,
he expected to increase his surplus. But with regard to
any increase on that noxious fluid gin, not inconsistent
with the interests of the public, be could have no objection.
The honourable baronet had proposed many very singular
taxes ; he might almost as well have proposed a tax
upon mountebanks.—(Great laughter.) The honourable
baronet was doubtless anxious to benefit the agricultural
interest of the country, but lie bad thrown into the con-
sideration of the question a degree of ridicule and jocu-
larity of which, whether he (Sir R. Peel) referred to
the importance of the question or the distressed state of
that great interest, he could not but highly disapprove.—
(Hear, hear.) The hon. liaro,,et did not object to the
imposition of a property tax. Now, if he could concur
with the hon. baronet that it was desirable, in the present
state of the country, to impose a general property tax, he
certainly would have no difficulty in concurring with the
bon. baronet in his motion. But he, for one, would
certainly deprecate any renewal of that inquisition.—
(Hear, hear. ) Without the most overwhelming necessity
he certainly could not concur in the motives which had
induced the bon. member for Wilts to support the motion.
The hon. member who spoke last bad no objection to a
partial repeal of the malt tax, provided there wag an equi-
valent duty re-imposed upon beer. He entirely disagreed
with that hon. Member. It was but a few years since
they removed the tax upon beer; and were that duty
to be renewed, the vexation of re-establishing it would
very much outweigh any possible advantage that might be
derived front a partial abolition of the malt tax.—(Hear,
hear.) He remembered well that the strongest outcry
was raised against the beer tax, because it was said that
it fell most heavily upon the poor, who were unable to
brew themselves, and were compelled to purchase their
beer of the brewers—(Hear)—.and that the repeal of the
tnalt tax would only benefit noblemen and gentlemen,
who brewed and consumed their own lker, but would be
no relief to the poor classes, whose consumption of beer
was much greater than theirs. There was, indeed, no
other reason for abolishing the beer tax than a strong
conviction that it was most unjust towards the labouring
classes of society, and that what cost the brewer twenty
per cent. cost the poor man at least 100. To reduce
the malt tax and restore the beer tax would be merely
taxing the same article in another form. He, however,
begged it to be distinctly understood that he still main•
tained his opinion that when the taxation of the country
could be diminished consistently with the maintenance of
public credit, the agricultural interest, considering its
present reduced state, had the very first claim upon
the consideration of the noble lord..—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The proposition now made was too partial to command his
support. But he would say, let a committee be appointed
to consider what was the great effect of public taxation
and local taxation upon the landed interest, and let the
house, then viewing the question as a whole, see whether
the burdens which they bore were fairly placed upon them.
—(Hear, bear.) No one who thought the agricultural
interest too much oppressed need objact to such an inquiry.
—(Hear, bear.) He very much doubted whether the
abolition of the malt tax would produce the relief to the
landed interest which was generally imagined. The malt
tax produced about five millions. The actual poor rates
trom the land much about the same amount.—(No.)
He was speaking strictly of the poor rate—of that part of
the poor rates which pressed upon the land. Nor if be
were asked this question, whether it would be of greater
advantage to the landed interest to get rid of the malt tax
of five millions, or to get rid of the poor rates, should he
have the slightest hesitation in answering the latter.—
(Hear, hear.) Suppose they could apply the produce of
the malt tax to the provision of the poor out of the public
funiis, would there tie any hesitation in saying which would
prove the most effectual relief to the agriculturists ?
Certainly, the removal of the poor rate would be an
infinitely greater, more general, and more just relief to
the lauded interest than the mere repeal of the tax upon
liarley.--(Hear, hear.) In uttering these opinions, be did
not intend to preclude himself from fully considering
whether there might aut, with advantage, be a partial
remission of the malt tax to the extent of the surplus which
he noble lord could afford to bestow. He said afford to
bestow, because he believed the noble lord had not
.above

1,200,0001. to give away. He was not prepared at once
to bay that taking off a fourth of the malt tax would ope-
rate as any great relief to agriculture. If only one fourth
were reduced, all the vexation attendant upon the collection
of the tax would still continue, He mud certainly bear
in mind that we were living in a country where great
quantities of barley were grown, hut he much doubted
whether, by the remission of the barley tax, though he
knew the barley growers were suffering, they would give
relief to that class of the agricultwists who were most in
want of it.—(Hear, hear.) Considering the manner in
which the hon. baronet had brought the question f rward,
and the deep importance of the interests at stake, he cer-
tainly hoped the whole subject would receive the early
attention of the house (and certainly none deserved it
more), with a view of establishing some permanent, system
of relief. Though he could not at present concur in the
total repeal of the malt tax, and though he thought the
advantages of a partial repeal somewhat doubtful, yet he
certainly considered that, whenever the Chancellor of the
Exchequer could, corp.i.tently with the state of the public
revenue and the maintenance of public credit, make any
remission of taxation, the agricultural interest had the very
first claim to the benefit of that remission.-.-( Hear.)

Mr. COBBETT was sorry that he should be corn
pelted to differ in opinion from the hon. baronet (Sir 11.
Peel). For lie could not conceive him to be guided by
correct principles for the relief of the former when he
stated that he would choose the abolition of the poor rates
in preference to the repeal of the malt tax. He feared,
indeed, that be had fallen into the same error as the noble
lord had done when he stated that the poor rates pressed
heavily on the occupiers of the soil. In what way, he
would ask, did they press heavily on the occupiers of the
soil ? It could not be said that they pressed more heavily
upon them than the tithes. They cou►d, in truth, be
only regarded as a part of the rent, and as such produced
no pressure on the farmers. In illustration of this point,
he (Mr. C.) said, he might as well call upon the house
for relief from the payment of stamps at the Stamp-office.
To say that the occupiers of the soil were the payers of the
poor rates would indeed be false and absurd. They were
no such thing. It was the consumer who paid the poor
rates. Instead, therefore, of going into a general committee
of inquiry into the natural and local burdens of the occu-
pier of land, as had been suggested by the hon. baronet, it
would be more convenient for the house to consider one
thing at a time, and in the mean time to take into their
serous consideration the repeal of the malt tax. Those who
maintained that all the profits arising from the repeal of
this tax would accrue to the landowners had a very erroneous
view of the subject ; for it was dear the money would be
put into the pocket of the consumer, and into his pocket
only. It was true many of the witnesses ex twined by
the committee said that beer-shops were a great evrl,but
many witnesses also give it as their opin'on that the
proper remedy for this evil would be the repeal of the
malt tax. Beer-shops were an evil, but the real cor-
rection of that evil would be the repeal of the malt tax.
The amount of this tax was the great objection stated
against it. Now his (Mr. Cobbett's) objection was not
so much to the amount as to the mischief produced h 1
it. The first evil was that it drove the working people
to the beer shops, and a still greater evil that it drove
the farming servants from the houses of the farmers.
They must all be aware what a great change had taken
place in this respect from the old custom. Formerly the
servants were kept and maintained from the youth in the
'arming houses, and no person would deny that they were
touch better off under the care of the farmer and his wife
than under that of their father and mother, because they
were not so much indulged. This change of custom had
operated a great and lamentable change in the charades
and manners of the rural population, and the great cause
of this was the malt tax.—(Hear, hear.) One of the
greatest sources of expense in keeping men servants in
farmhouses was the beer they drank. Beer they must
have, and beer they ought to have. They must have ale
too occasionally, and they ought to have it.—(Hear.)
This being the case, the farmer now—in place of
keeping labourers in the house—hired the servants by
the week, one boy for a week, another boy for ano-
ther, to save the expense of bee r.—(Hear. ) Another
evil was, that the malt tax created a monstrous
monopoly. Eight bushels of barley would produce nine
bushels of malt. Now any farmer, were it not for this
tax, could make his own malt as well as a maltster ; and
what a great difference would it make to him, having his
own barley in the house, if he could convert as much or
as little of it as he pleased into malt when he had occasion
for it. The price of malt now was 645. the quarter,
or Bs. a bushel. The present price of barley was 245.
a quarter, and the tax 20s. Bd., making together 445. Sd.
Now the whole difference between this and 645. went
into the pocket of the maltster. This difference went out
of the pocket of the consumer in consequence of the
existing restraints, and to pay for what was calbd the
maltster's capital. What was the use of his capital in this
way to the farmer ? If by taking off the tax he mold no
longer employ his capital in malting, let him employ it in
Brining, or in some other branch of industry. Let this
be done, and malt might then be had at 445. Bd. in
place of 645. The hon. member for Middlesex (Mr.
Hume) objected to the motion because the 1,200,0001.
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could spare would
not be given to his constituents in the repeal of the house
or window tax which affected them. But were they not
affected with the malt tax also ?—(Hear.) Look at an
artisan who sent out daily for his three or four pots of
beer. Give him malt at 265. a quarter in piece of 645.,
and be would be a gainer by paying in lieu of it the house
and window tax. He was in some doubt how he should
vote upon this question. From the respect he entertained
for the hon. baronet (Sir W. Ingilhy) i;e was desirous to
support him, hut he was not favourable to a partial repeal
of this tax. He felt convinced it would be productive of
little or no good. One said the land was relieved by the
repeal of the property tax, and that it was too much now
to call on the house to relieve them by the removal of this
tax also. It was not the agricultural interest alone that
was eel eyed by the repeal of the property tax. He himself
paid 1001. property tax on account of a certain publica-
tion which should be nameless—(A laugh)—and he was
relieved to that extent when the tax was removed.
Mr. CLAY was inclined to think that the motion was
brought forward exclusively with a view to the benefit of
the agricultural interest. The member for Bridport (Mr.
Warburton) proved very clearly that it would be a greater
relief to the public to take off part of the beer duty than
the malt tax. '1 he agricultural interest alone would profit
by the removal of this tix. He would appeal to the house if
that interest was not already sufficiently sustained by being
in possession of the most grievous, the most unjust, and
monstrous monopoly that ever existed in any country ?
(Cries of " No, no.") Would those hon. gentlemen who
cried " No" deny that the protecting duty on barley was
not from 130 to 140 per cent. ? From inquiries he made
that very day he was convinced of the accuracy of this
statement. He would not oppose the motion provided
the committee would have power to inquire into the corn
laws as well as the malt duty. The hon. member for
Oldham (Mr. Cobbett) said the consumer paid the whole
tax. That bon. member was not correct in the price of
barley, as stated by him. He inquired that very day,
and found the prices of barley to be 275., 305., and 345.,
varying with the quality ; malt was 535., 555., and 58s.

Mr. A. BARING said it was rather unfortunate for the
cause which the hon. baronet (Sir W. Ingilby) advocated
that he introduced it in the manner he did. In the first
place, as to the mode of proceeding proposed by him, he
thought the hon. baronet was wholly mi-taken. His first
proposal was a total repeal of the tax. But having, as he
supposed—and it was perfectly fair and consistent with
usage to do so—made inquiry among various honourable
gentlemen in the house, and ascertained their opinions, he
!oak counsel of them, and seemed now willing to accept
of a partial, if he could not obtain a total, repeal. When
there was a question of the imposition or repeal of a
tax the usual way of entering upon such discussion was
in a committee of the whole house. The change, there-
fore, made by the hon. baronet in his motion was a dis-
creet one. For his part he invariably maintained in that
house, and still maintained, that above all things the
public faith of the count!), must be supported. The
question now under consideration involved a sum of four
millions and a half. The last war left the country with
a tremendous load of debt, and that debt, up to the pre-
sent moment, was but little diminished. The only relief
was in that stock which bore a higher interest. He
was then of opinion, and still entertained the same
opinion, that the best mode of proceeding would have
been to look steadily and perseveringly to a gradual extinc-
tion of public debt. Not having acted upon this principle
was, as it appeared to him, the cause why the Govern-
ment was not now in a situation to come forward and
propose something effectual for the relief of the great in-
terests that were suffering. With a moderate support of
public credit there would at the prexent moment be no
such thing in existence as Three and a Half per Cent.
Stock. It would have been reduced to two and a half,
and then they would have been called to reduce the taxes
on wine, spirits, tea, and other articles of consumption.
Consols were now at 90 ; that was at the rate of about 32
per tent., while Exchequer bills brought only 3 per cent.
This difference of one-half per cent. stowed that the public
itad great confidence in the short pecuniary engagements
of Government. The reason of this was that they ne-
glected to make due provision for the debts contracted in
time of war, with a view to their gradual and final ex-
tinction. They might.notv have been in a situation to relieve

tteMselves to the amount of between 8,000,000/. and
9,000,0001. if they had taken care to kesp by them a
slieht reserved fund. There were 20,000,0001. to be
Paid this year to the West India interests, and the noble
lord (Althorp) took the interest of this, correctly enott.b,
at 800,0001. Four per Csnrs. Now this 800.0001.
would not be more than 400 0001. if pubic credit was in
that proper and healthy state in which it might and ought
to have been. Had the 20,000,000!. been borrowed as
a floating and not as a funded debt it might have been
had at 2 instead of 4 per cent., and thus the public would
have to pay but 400,0001. in place of 800,000/. The
noble lord, however, did not adopt this course, and it was
now too late to retrace his steps. Under these circum-
stances, and considering the opinions acted upon of
late, he was compelled to deal with the question
now before the house upon the principle that, while
farthing surplus remained in the Treasury, to that
extent the public must be relieved from taxation. The
proposal of the hon. baronet to go into committee on the
malt tax appeared to him a reasonable one. Those pen-
t'emen who might think that the repeal of it would give
relief to the agricultural interest could not, of course, op-
pose the motion. It would certainly be desirable to get rid
of the tax altogether. He made inquiry into the present
state of prices as well as the hon. member for the Tower
Hamlets, and the information he received differed from
that of the hon. member. That hon. gentleman had re-
course to the wholesale dealers for his information. If he
inquired among small dealers in the country and in country
towns he would find that the utmost price of barley per
quarter was 255. or 265., and the price of malt from 60s.
ro 64e. If, as had been said, the inhabitants of towns
would derive advantage from it, that would be an addi-
tional reason for repealing the t ix. The price of barley
being 255. a quarter, and the duty 20s. Bd., the real price
of the quarter of malt a as 455. 841. Now, instead of
malt being 465. a quarter, it was 61a. Thus there was
a waste of 18s. in every quarter. It was one of the great
problems in finance to impose such taxes that the cost of
collection should be as little as possible. Here, however,
they found that the actual charge for making malt, as was
roost clearly shown by the hon. member for Oldham
(Mr. Cobbeti.), was only 459, ; whereas the consumer in
this country had an additional tax of 18s. a quarter im-
posed on itim for the charge of collection. He (Mr.
Baring) thought that no person who had listened to the
very luminous speech of the hon. member for Oldham
could have a doubt as to the oppressive operation of that
tax. The government, for the protect,l.n of the re
venue, imposed restrictions us to the mode in which
the article should be manufac ured. To carry on the
business of malting with success it was necessary to
employ a large capital ; tor in many instances the mal'stsr
was obliged to pay large sums in advance to the Govern-
ment. He was also obliged to keep a large establishment,
and was exposed to the most inconvenient, and in many
instances oppressive, interference in the manufacture ; of
course such interference, and the advance of capital, mak-
int; a very considerable additiolal charge to the consumer.
A distinction had that night been drawn between the in-
terests of the agricultural population and the inhabitants of
large towns. Now he (Mr. Baring) thought that drawing
such lines of distinction could only be attended with mis-
chief. He had never seen nor heard of a House of Corn-
tnons—refermed or unreformed—that did not, in every
question that came before them connected with the state
of the labouring population, manifest the utmost anxiety
to promote their well being. In towns the labouring
classes ha] opportunities of combining together for the
promotion of their own interests. Now that was not the
case with the agricultural population. Many allusieus had
been made to the operation of the poor laws in deteriorat-
ing the condition of the agricultural population. He ad-
mitted, that although the changes tnade in the principle of
the poor laws was intended for the good of the labour-
ing classes, yet, instead of producing that result, those
changes had rettuced them to a state of suffering in which,
in many instances, they had little more than sufficient to
maintain animal existence. Indeed, such was their condition
that, although beer wascheap, it was so dear that itwas hardly
ever within the leach of the poor man. He (Mr. Baring)
"fiad no doubt that if the malt tax was removed it would in
many instances induce the farmer to go back to the old
system of maintaining many of his labourers on his re-
sidence. He thought that it was of the greatest im-
portance the malt tax should be repealed, provided it
could be done without an infringement of the national
faith. If he saw the least chance of the national faith
being endangered by appointing the committee he should
be guilty of a gross dereliction of his duty if he sup-
ported the motion. He thought that no person who
calmly considered the subject would arrive at such a
a conclusion ; on the contrary, he (Mr. Baring) was sa-
tisfied that it would be productive of the greatest good to
the community. It had long been the conviction of his
miud that the substitution of a tax on beer for the malt
tax would be most beneficial to the consumer, as it
would lessen the price of beer, and it would also enable
the farmers, and in many cises the labourers, to brew
cheep beer. He contended that if the noble lord put a
tax on beer producing 2,500,000/., and took off the
malt tax, there would he a saving to the consumers of
be. .r to the amount of 2,000,000/.—(Hear.) He bad reason
to believe that the repeal of the beer tax had not enabled
the Government to make any considerable reductions as
to the charge of supervision, and he did not be.
lieve that if his suggestion was adopted it would lead to
a very serious charge for collection. Again, at present
malt paying duty to the amount of 500.0001. was con-
sumed by the distillers. Now, a tax to that amount might
be put on spirits without any additional charge to the
purchaser. He had also reason to believe that the constant
interference with the distiller in consequence of the malt
tax was attended with so much annoyance and trouble that
the removal of it would almost justify the imposition of
another 500,000/. on spirits. Indeed he had been told by
a Scotch distiller that persons in that trade would wil-
lingly consent to have the duty increased from 2s. 9d. to
4s. provided the malt tax was got rid of. By adopting
the course he (Mr. Baring) had suggested, the Noble Lord
would get 2 500,000/. on beer, 1,000,000/. on spirits,
and to that the noble lord Haight add the present surplus
of 1,500,000/. Thus be would have 5,000,000/, to deal
with. The noble lord certainly had not pledged himself
to the repeal of the malt tax, but had committed himself
to a certain extent; and he (Mr. Baring) was prepa-ed
to admit, after what bad taken place, that it would be an
ungracious thing if the agriculturists were to get relief by
the repeal of the malt duty, and they left en the house tax.
He really thought that by adopting the course he had sug-
gested the noble lord could take off both those taxes.
The noble lord had promised that the agricultural classes
should be relieved by an alteration in the poor laws. He
(Mr. B.) did not wish to go into that question, but he
would tell the noble lord, if he expected anything like
extensive relief by adopting the regulations recommended
by the poor law commissioners in their report, he (Mr.
Baring) was sure that the noble lord would be greatly dp-
appointed.
Lord ALTHORP, before he went into the general
question before the house, was anxious to refer to an ob-
servation that tell from the right hon. baronet (Sir R.
Peel) with regard to the tea trade. lie (Lord Althorp)
would here observe, that lie concurred with the right hon.
gentleman generally in what fell from him, and he was
extremely glad to hear many of the observations that fell
from him. The right hon. gentlemen seemed to think that
the new mode of collecting the duty on tea would require
' a large increase in the number of officers, and also a pro-
bable diminution in the amount of the receipts. Now lie
(Lord Alrborp) did nut anticipate any such results. At any
rate, during the present year, there was no necessity for
going into the subject, as the new arrangements did not
come into operation. His hon. friend the member for
Essex (Mr. Baring) commenced his speech with express-
ing his opinions as to a surplus revenue. Now his bon.
friend was aware that last year be (Mr. Baring) differed
from him (Lord Althorp) in that point, and since then
he had seen no reason to alter his opinion. His hon. friend
bad said, and not for the first time in that house, that the
reason that Exchequer bills bore less interest than the
Funds was because there was an opinion that there was a
want of security in the Funds. He (Lord A.) regretted to
hear such an opinion expressed by a man of the experience
and knowledge of his hon. friend. He (Lord A.) was satis-
fied that his hon. friend was entirely wrong in the view he
had taken of the subject, and the reason he had assigned
had nothing to do with the case. In his (Lord A.'s) opinion,
the difference of price did not arise from any want of security,
but from the greater convenience in purchasing Exchequer
bills. His hon. friend had also said that if after the war
we had continued to extract money from the pockets of the
people, with the view of keeping tip a large surplus,
.it the present time no interest would be paid on the funds.
Now be did not agree in the opinion that had been ex-
pressed; but the consequence of not extracting more
taxes from the pockets of the people with the view of
keeping up a large surplus revenue was, that the capital
of the country had increased, and the people were much
more able to pay the interest of the debt than they for-
merly were. He (Lord Althorp) thought that govern-
ment had acted wisely in pursuing the course which they
had, rather than in adopting the plan of his hon. friend.
It was well known that he (Lord Althorp) had long made
up his mind as to the impolicy of keeping up a large sur-
plus revenue, arid he was satisfied that it attempts bad
been made to do so from the peace the result must have
been unsatisfactory. His hon. Iriend then went to the
question as proposed by the hon. member for Lincolnshire.

He (Lard Althorp) felt pretty conAtlent, knowing as bed
did his hen. friend the member for Linco'nshite, that the
course which he would propose would he str tight and
plain. But be (Lord Althorp) entild not help feeling that
in the m. de which the bona. hail adopted in pro.
posing the repeal of the malt tax lie was advised by a
certain person who was a mob bettor tactieian than his
hon. friend etsasOe:•(llear, hear.) 11, (Lord Altborp)
oust say that his hon. friend lied adopted advice which
was not calculated to forward his views, and he was
sore that if his hon. friend had brought forward
his motion ail he intended he would have been likely
to have got more stippotters to his motion.—(llear.)
Now what was the motion before the house ? It was for
a committee of the whole house to inquire Whether a re-
ductioir could be made in taxation, and, incidentally, tfhat
,tactical reductions could be made in the expenditure.
Now what were the topics which the house would have
to consider? Different suegestions bed been made as to
the course which ought to be pursued. One soggestion
was that reduction should he made by taking away a
11 irtion of the interest of the national debt. Another was
tem' far the expenditure of the country as regarded our
establishments could be reduced to effect the object in
view. Indeed it would appear the inquiries of the com-
mittee would extend to the while income and expenditure
of the country. Again, some questions were to be con-
sidered as to the taxes which were to he placed on in
commutation of some which it was proposed to take off.
his hon. friend the member for Lincolnshire stated wh -t
course he would pursue; and he (Lord Althorp) could
not help observing on this part of the subject that his hon
friend who spoke last did not take a view of the sulijset
s r different from that taken by the bon. baronet as lie
(Lord Althorp) had expected.---(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Ilia hon. friend the member for Wiltshire had suggested
that a property tax should be imposed. Now he (Lord
Althorp) would only say, if the committee was appointed,
and took upon itself the imposition of taxes, it would, in
;mint of fact, assume the whole functions of the executive
government— (Hear)—and it ought not to be forgotten
that the inquiry was to take place before a cominitt. e of
the whole house.—(Hear, bear.) For his (Lord Althorp'r)
pert he did not see how by any prosioility such an inquiry
could be conducted in such a way.—(Hear, bear, bear )
Ile recollected that some years ago his right hon. friend
the member for Manchester (Mr. P. Thomson) brought
forward a motion for the house to inquire into the whole
system of taxation. Now what was the ground for op•
posing that motion ? The right hon. gentleman who was
'hen Chancellor of the Exchequer, said dr tt no govei n-
ment could consent to a motion of the kind without a
complete abandonment of their duty ; and the onlyground
for supporting the motion w.s, that. the Government had
not acted consistently with the interests of the country,
and that therefore the house took the management of the
finansial elfin-ft of the country out of their hand. There-
fore, taints such a view of the case, lie felt that it would
be utterly disgraceful to him if he did not resist the mo-
tion to the utmost. On these grounds he hoped the house I
would not consent to a motion which implied a censure .on
the government. His hon. friend who had spoken last
recommended that a tax on b.er should be imposed, and
s ri I that it would not press on the consumer so much as
the malt tax. Now he (Lord Althorp) would say without
hesitation that that would not he the case as regarded the
poorer class of consumers; and, in addition, it would be
an unequal tax, and, therefore, must press more unfairly
than the tax I.n malt. The hon. member for Oldham
recommended that the house should repeal the whole tax.
He (Lord Althorp) agreed with the hon member that it
would be better to get rid of the whole tax than reduce it,
ler if the whole was not got rid of, the expense of collec.
ion and the vexation and difficulty in the way of the trade
would s ill be retained. He agreed with the bon member
that the full benefit would not be given to agriculture if
they did not get rid of the whole tax, and, above all,
as regarded farmers making their own malt. With re-
spect to the observations made as to the improvements
that would take place in the condition of the agriceitural
peasantry from taking off the malt tax, he !tad a few
observations to make. It had been sta•ed that the agri-
cultural labourers would be indesed to brew their own
beer, and, however desirable that might appear, he did
not believe that a chr.uge of that kind would be brought
about in the present state of things.—(Hear, hear.) He
repeated that he did not believe that a repeal of the malt
tax would produce such a state of things; on the con-
trary, he was satisfied that the labouring classes would
find it more worth their w'r.ile to buy their beer of
brewers, than to brew it themselves. Indeed, it was
hardly possible for lasourers to make beer as cheap as
those persons could afford to sell it who bad large capitals.
—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Althorp) was also much
afraid that the system was at an end of farm servants
living in the houses of their employers, and that it was
not very likely to be revived. He did not believe that
the repeal of the malt tax would be productive of any
such result. With respect to the recommendation that a
tax should be imposed on beer in lieu of the malt tax, he
wished to observe that he very well recollected the 'argu-
ments urged with reference to the repeal of the beer tax.
It was then shown that the regulations necessary in th•
collection of that tax were most vexatious; and it was
also proved to his satisfaction, that the consumers of beer
would gain much more by getting rid of that tax than
by reducing the malt tax, Indeed, he was satisfied that
any attempt to re-impose that tax, or impose a tax of
a similar nature on the country, would give rise to the
most serious opposition. He (Lord Althorp) had said
that the imposing a tax on beer in the room of the malt
tax would be unfair, as it would throw a burden on the
poorer classes of the consumers of beer. If the plan sug-
gested was adopted, a person with a large house in the
country and a numerous establishment would be enabled
to make his own beer, and at any rate pay but a small
amount to the revenue ; whereas the poorer classes, who
in nearly all cases would not have the means of brewing,
would have to pay nearly the whole of the proposed beer
t a. He (Lord Althorp) did not think that a House of
Commons would ever accede to a proposition tending to
such a result. His Han. Friend (Mr. Baring) had sug-
gested that there should be an increase in the duty laid
on spirits. He (Lord Althorp) agreed, he believed, with
almost every gentleman in the House that the utmost
amount of duty should he raised on spirits that could be
collected ; but be did not think that it would be possible
to increase the duty with any prospect of increasing the
revenue. From all that he had beard he was satisfied the
adoption of such a course as that suggested would en-
courage illicit distillation, and which be did not think
would tend to increase the morals of the people. In cor-
roboration of what he had just stated he would mention a
circumstance to the house which must be in the recollec-
tion of many who heard him. In 1830 there was an in-
crease in the duty on spirits. Now it was calculated that
the increased duty would produce 600,0001. to the revenue,
whereas, instead of such a result, there was an actual falling
off to the amount of 100,0001. He had reason to believe
that that result bad not arisen from a falling off in the con-
sumption of spirits, but in consequence of the increase of
illicit distillation. Under these circumstances, however
desirable it might appear, he did not think that they
could calculate upon getting any counterbalance for the
reduction of the malt tax by increasing the duty on spirits.
His hon, friend must, on reflection, recollect that the re-
duc.ien of the malt tax would in some degree oper tte as
a temptation to the smuggler. The smuggler and fair
trader would start on equal terms if they at present
bought malt, and the smuggler would only save the
amount of tits duty on spirits. It did not make any
difference to the fair trader whether he paid the whole
duty on the spirits, or partially on the spirits and partially
on the malt. It, however, the duty on the malt was
taken off, the smuggler would be able to avail himself
of the benefit of the reduction, anti to make a larger
profit by his illicit distillation. It was on this ground,
therefore, he was satisfied that the adoption of the course
suggested by his hon. friend would be productive of
mischief. Seeing, therefore, the subject in that point
of view, and feeling that going into the committee
would be productive of no good, but that it would only
occasion unnecessary alarm, and believing also that it was
of the utmost importance in the present state of the
finances of the country to maintain confidence in the na-
timid faith, he felt called upon to resist the motion. He
repeated that the state of our finances did not warrant
the reduction of the whole of the malt tax, and that
taking off one-half or one quarter of the duty would be
only so much loss to the revenue, without any thing like
an equivalent advantage to the country. He was most
anxious to give every relief to the agricultural classes,
although he was not prepared to propose such relief
as some honourable members connected with the agri
culture of the country demanded ; but it was, however,
his intention to recommend to the house that a number of
minor fiscal regul ttions which pressed in a vexatious man-
ner should be got rid of. The adoption of that course
would be attended with little loss to the revenue, and he
hoped that, together with other arrangements, which he
should not then go into, something effective would be done
towards affording relief to that important interest. He
believed that on a motion in another place a committee was
appointed to inquire into this part of the subject, and an
hon. gentleman, well acquainted with country matters,
intended to adoptsa similar course in that house. He could
assure the house he was as anxious as any man to do all
in his power to relieve the country from the burdens under
which it laboured, and all he could say was that, if any
means of effecting that object without endangering the

public credit or the real 6nanclal state of the country
c. old be pointed wit, he fir -ott. aeit as a Mini-ter
Crown, should be most wiltia.e. to assent to its adoption.
--(Hear, hear.) With these views, he hoped the mo-
tion, notwithstanding the altered shape in which it had
Fatten brought forward. would he rejected. for without see-
their, way clearly a committee would be useless, and if
they did see their way clearly it would be altogether un.
mcessary. Under these circurnstaneee, he hoped and
trusted the hence would resist the motion.
Mr. HUAIE hoped that, whatever change watt effected,
nothing would he done which would in any was' en.
d.tneer the public credit.—(Hear, hear.) By the reference
tohich the noble lord had made to the speech of the
r'• ht ban. gentlemn the Vice-President of the Board of
Trade he had placed himself in an awkward predicament,
P,:'l4 if lie (Mr. Home) were to refer to a vote which the
nolile ford had giv:n on a motion similar to the present
that awkwardneles would not be lessened, for he would defy
noble lord to explain the difference of the two cases.
IF, instead of allowing conflicting interests to fight their
ewn battles, the noble lord had made up his mind, as he
ought to have done, to apply the surplus revenue he had
LI band in the reduction of taxation, he never would have
it ien placed in the difficulty in which he now stood. It
teas an error to suppose that this was purely an agricul•
toral question. He denied that it was so, and asserted
that it would be advantageous alike to all classes. The
rtipeal of 4,500,000/. of taxation would be good for all
varties, whether living in country or town. If the malt •
tax were taken off, the agriculturists must consent to spinet
fir the free importation of grain. That, however, wee
another question) but if they supported the present moo
tien, he, for one, would consider them bound, nay, pledged,
t, advocate the free importation of corn.—(Hear, hear.)
lining satisfied that the time was near at band when
the corn laws must be altered, he considered the in-
quiry proposed by this motion one Of paramount int-
eortance, and as the nob', lord opposite—as his M ajesty's
Government—had declined to do anything for the benefit
of the people, it was the duty of that House to take
the matter into its; own bands.—(Hear, hear.) He
freely acknowledged that the motion of his hon. freted
did intrench upon the functions of the noble lord the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, but if the noble lord threw
the duty which he ought to perform upon that home they
surely ought not to shrink from dischareieg it. No man
c mid deny that the present system of taxation pressed
most umqually, and that it was the bounden duty of
that house to eye whether some better and more equit.
Joie mode of taxation could not be devised. He did
net hesitate to say that, if the committee sought far
by the motion of his hon. friend was granted, instead
of injuring the public credit, they sv.auld show how it
tam! I be best sustairaed. IC was not true that the re-
mission of this tax, amounting only to 4,500,000/.,
weuld endanger public credit ; but, even if it were true,
that was not the question which they had now' to deal
with. The question was, could not the present sptetu
of taxation be changed for one that was mote equitable?
And if that house did not take the suhject into its own
hands the country could not hope that any relief would be
afforded to it. The subjt-ict of reduction could, however,
ae better considered in a committee than any where else ;
and if the noble lord would only call to recollection the
sentiments he had formerly expressed he would not now
resist the motion of the hon. baronet.—(Hear, hear.)
Did the noble lord suppose that if he was able to
show that no better tax could he substituted for
the malt tax the house wcald not go along
with him ? He (Mr. Hume) believed that no more in-
jurious tax existed ; but stall, if the noble lord reaid con-
vince a committee that it could not be gone without, they
would not demand its remission.--(Hear, hear.) It had
ever been his opinion that it was bad policy on the part of
the government to rose the price of beer, and by that
means to inerease the consumption of spirits. He knew
of no :means by which tspirit-drinking could be get rad of
'tut by the removal of the malt tax; and if, on the one
ttitejafitt
jotnilvyouthlde
blaenedgeudapuryopardiveatonrjagbeeo,
baud, it was said that the remission of that tax would be-
uosn t
oth,eveortyh eort,haesrsecrltaesds
of the community. It was idle to say that the btmefit
would be partial. Both patties were implicated in the
question of over taxation, and he believed that unless some-
thing was speedily done to relieve the country from the
burdens which oppressed it the consequence would he most
lamentable. One means of effecting that object would be
the repeal of the tax upon beer. It was a mistake on the
pars of the hon. member that the imposition of an addi-
tional duty of 2s. 6d. a gallon on gin would not lead to an
increase of ilicit distillation. They had only to refer to
Ireland and to Scotland to be convinced that the notion
of his hen. friend on the point was fallacious. An addi-
tional duty of 6d. a gallott had been laid on Scotch and
Irish spirits, and what was the result? Why, that illicit
distillation was renewed to an incredible extent in the

Highlands of Scotland and in several p ,rts of Ireland.
Instead of endangering the public credit, or occasioning
dissatisf xtiiin, going into a committee would rather fortify-
cie one and prevent the other. It would induce the
country stil to place confidence in his Majesty's ministers,
and convince the people that their complaints were not
unattended to by that house. This was the opinion which
lie entertained, and therefore he should vote for the inquiry.

Mr. O'CONNELL must say that, if they refused tois
inquiry, the rejection of the motion of the hon. baronet
would am unt to a declaration that they did not intend to
afford any relief to the agricultural interest.—(Cries of
"No, no ") Hon. gentlemen said ''No, no ;" hut he
would ask the house whether it was not on tfela elf of the
agricultural interest that the inquiry was sought? This
could not be denied, and he was therefore right when I.e
said that refusing the committee would be tantamount to
declaring that they (lid not mean to do anything ;or the
agricultural interest. Perhaps the agricultural in erest
lard no claim upon the sympathies of parliament ; but if
they would look at the Agricultural Reports of 1831 and
and 1833 they would find that that interest was labouring
under accumulated distress. Indeed, it they would only
refer to his Majesty's speech they would find the same fact
stated, for although in that document the Ministers
Et iumphed in the commercial prosperity that ob -
rained, they admitted and regretted the existence of great
agricultural distress.—(Hear.) The agricultural distress
which prevailed in all parts of Ireland was disputed by
Ito one ; but still it would appear that his Majesty's Go-
vernment had no intention to propose any measure for the
relief of that country.—(Cries of "No, no.") The only
tax proposed to be taken off was the house tax ; but the
remission of that tax would afford no relief to Ireland. The
I duty on glass and the window tax had been extended to
Ireland ; but such was the poverty of the country tint
they were found wholly unproductive, and consequently
repealed. He stood there in behalf of the agricultural in-
terest of Ireland.—(A laugh.) Perhaps the naming of
any thing connected with Ireland might create a laugh in
that house.—(No, no.) Well, then, he supposed there
was no laugh. But, even supposing the house and win-
dow duties were both repealed, he would ask how such a
remission could benefit Ireland ? He had a right to call
on that house to institwe such an inquiry as would re-
lieve the agricultural interest of Ireland as well as those
of this country. But if no relief was intended to h af-
forded to Ireland, it would be only fair on the part of the
Government to say so. The committee, if granted, would
not be called upon to decide the amount of relief which
•houlti be granted. Their duty would only be to paint out
how that relief could beat be obtained. But although no
direct taxes existed in Ireland, still taxation was severely
felt in that part of the empire. One of the objects which
the committee proposed by the hon. baronet should con-
sider was, whether it would nut be possible to convert the
present system of taxation into a property, not an income,
tax —(Hear, bear.) He had no ditpoticion whatever
to lean on one part of the empire more than another.
But of this he was convinced, that a property tax ..lone
would be of advantage to Ireland. He knew he should
be assailed with brutality out of doors, and met by attacks
in that house; but still he would declare the sentiments
which he had before expressed, and affix ou others the
coarge of gross robbery which had been committed by the
public creditor on the public debtor. Tne public debt
had been created by one species of currency, to be paid in
mother, and therefore he insisted that robbery had b 'en
committed on the one band, and that national faith bad
been violated on the other. Was it " cant" then to say
that the national faith had not been violated ? It was
clear that both p trties should equally suffer from the
transitions which had taken place in the currency, anti
ti at the debtor should not he placed in a better situation
than the creditor; for they should recollect that the debt
was contracted in a paper currency, and that the creditor
required be paid in a metallic currency. But to show
that it was not cart to say that the national faith had not
teen violated he had ()lly to refer to the proposition of the
ruble lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer for imposing
a tax on the transfer of stock. He did nut wive to digress
from the question before the house, but be could not help
o'rserving that the right hon, gentleman opposite (Sir J.
Giaillani) had gone farther than even he O'Connell)
ever thought of going.—(Hoar ) Yet he (Mr. 0 Connell)
lied been charged with political profligacy for proposing
reduction of live per cent., notwithstanding the right
mourable gentleman had, in a pamphlet pub ished 1;),
otm, declared that the claim of the tundholderi shoulti
o reduced to the extent of 2 per cent.—(Hear.) 1104
t re noble lord could allow such a political prr.fiigate as
Hula lion. gentleman to sit so close beside limit he
„gr. O'Cuunell) could not understand ; far if there was

political profligacy in suggesting a reduction of the public 1
debt, the right bon. baronet was even snore guilty than j
be had been. He tepea•ed that the subject was one well '
worthy the attention of Parliament. But wheat was the
reason assigned by the noble lord for refusing the inquiry
that was now asked The noble lord said that the
appointment of such a committee would be a virtual
abdication of the functions of government. There could
be no doubt that it would—but when the noble lord had
abdicated his own duty it was high time that the house
should take the administration of public affairs into their
own hands, instead of allowing the citizens to be in a
state of conflict tvith the agriculturists.—(Hear, hear.)
The present administration was a government of shifts
and chances. In putting their helm about to avoid
Scylla they were driven on Charybdis ; and as they knew
not how to steer the vessel themselves, it was the duty of
that house to determine the course which ought to be
pursued.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He, therefore, respectfully
supported inquiry on behalf of the agricultural interests of
Ireland.

Sir W. INGILBY, in reply, did not think that a sin-
gle satisfactory objection bad been urged against his
budget, even by the right hon. baronet, the member for
Tamwortb. He sought the total annihilation of the malt
tax, and al be was actuated by no other motive than a
desire to alleviate the distresses of the poor, he hoped the
result of his motion would be a triumph over his op-
ponents. _

_
The gallery was then cleared of strangers, and the
house divided. The numbers were—

For the motion
Against it . 271
Majority -101
HOUSE DUTY REPEAL.

We were informed that immediately after the announce.
ment of the division.

Lord ALT HO,TitP rose and gave notice that on Thurs-
day next be should move for leave to bring in a bill to
repeal th., duty on houses.
'CHURCH PATRONAGE--SCOTLAND.

'Mr. SINCLAIR, after a few observations, which were
inaudible, from the rub of strangers into the gallery,
moved the appointment of a select committee to inquire
into the state of the law of patronage of churches in Scot-
land,

The LORD ADVOCATE, in a brief address, not one
word of which could be distinctly beard in the gallery,
was understood to offer no opposition to the motion.
The Hon. Capt. GORDON expressed some surprise
at the quarters from which such a motion had been made
and supported. He bad a'vays understood it to be an
admitted principle that the church of Scotland was its
own head, and that ;.n its internal regulations no other
authority was reepiired. He therefore could not be
otherwise thall surprised to bear those who were mem-
bers of that church, and of the number of its ruling elders,
coming forward with a proposition to refer its affairs to a
cot*,,n•ittee of that house. He certainly should have thought
more becoming the position of those honourable individuals
to have seen them discussing the question in the General As-
sembly to which they belonged; and if the General Assembly
should decide that it was necessary or desirable to make
alterations requiring an act of parliament, then would be
the fit time for bringing the subject before the house. He
should have been glad to bear what were to be the pre-
cise objects of the inquiry. There might be some ground
of complaint as to appointments ; and he was prepared to
say that since the accession of his Majesty's present Mi.
misters to office the crown patronage of Scotland bad been
given away upon political grounds. He believed that in
all tie appointments which had fallen to the crown since
they hid exercised its patronage, amounting in number to
seven, political motives had influenced them. He could
speak from his own knowledge as to one parish with which
he was connected in Aberdeenshire, where an individual
proprietor resident in the parish, and most beloved by all
classes, possessing four-fifths of the property of the parish,
applied to the Government in favour of one Minister ;
and another party, living at a distance, and only possess.
ing two farms, recommended another. The latter was
appointed contrary to the wish of nearly the whole of the
parishioners. If ministers intended to use the appoint-
ments to the church as a species of political patronage, he
confessed that he for one should wish to see the system al-
tered, for he was convinced that nothing could be more
injurious to those high interests which the church was
especially designed to protect.—(Hear, hear.) He objected
to the committee, at the present time, because he was not
prepared to legislate upon the question without the con-
sent and concurrence of the general assembly of Scotland.
Colonel L. HAY should not have said a word upon
this occasion if the bon. member had not made an asser-
tion as to the conduct of the government, and of a near
relation of his, respecting a parish in the county of Aber-
deen. A mare extraordinary assertion than that of his
hon. Friend was never made. In the first place, the pa-
tronage was not yet actually bestowed by the government,
some circumstances having, up to the present time, pre
vented the completion of the presentation. Secondly, if
ever there was an argument founded upon any thing un-
sound, it was that which his hon. friend had used against
allowing a committee of inquiry, at the very moment
when he said that ever since the government had been in
office it had bestowed the patronage improperly. If this
was not making out a case for inquiry he did not know
what was. He conceived it to be the best course for the
house to twee to the motion.

Major C. BRUCE felt assured that if the motion were
arried, it would produce the greatest evils to the church
of Scotland. 'the question had already been before the
general assembly of the church, and by taking it out of
bands, and placing it in those of the house, they
would be taking it out of the hands of a muck better,
and putting it into the hands of a much worse, tribunal.
Who were to be the committee? Was it to be composed
of persons of the communion of the church of Scotland ?
Or were they to submit its affairs and interests to gentle-
men of so many opposite and extreme opinions? He
would say that in common wisdom they were bound to
avoid all tb, se difficulties, and to leave the experiment of
curing the defects in the system of patronage to be tried
by the general assembly. The adoption of the motion
might put the house in a very awkward predicament
hereafter. The committee might come to resolutions
which the general assembly might think it inconsistent
with their duty to adopt. This was a difficulty which
had at all events be better avoided by the house waiting
to see what course of proceeding the general assembly
would recommend. Upon these grounds he was sorry
the motion bad been made, and must oppose it.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said the hon. gentleman did
not appear to know that the general assembly were altoge-
ther powerless on that question. The best proof of this
was, that several general assemblies had passed resolutions
asserting it as desirable that parliament should take into
their con.ideration the object of the motion now intro-
duced. With respect to what had been said as to the
exercise of the patronage of the crown, he felt it his duty
to state as his conviction, that it never was more purely
dispensed than by the present government. Believing, as
he did, that good would arise from the present motion,
and knowing that the people of Scotland looked to the
result of it with the most intense anxiety, be trusted the
house would accede to the motion.

The LORD ADVOCATE was understood to say, that
though be was in favour of a committee, he could not
siy what proceedings ought to be ul imately adopted.
Sir R. PEEL did not see any corroboration of the
statements of his boo. and learned friend, as to the uni-
versal demand from Scotland for a reform of the church
of that country. What was the proof of that demand?
Only ten petitions had been presented since the coin-
mencetnent of the session on the subject. But supposing
that many petitions were presented, yet it was plain
that the object of them was to deprive one class of men
of their rights, in order that they should be transferred
to others. These rights had been recognised for upwards
of one hundred and thirty years, and they were as sacred
as the rights of advowson in the established church of
England. No inquiry could be instituted into the
conduct of parliament, which established those rights,
because such inquiry would lead to the destruction of
the rights by which every species of property was held.
If, as bad been admitted, the patronage of the crown was
exercised with proper judgment—if there was a disposition
to conciliate the prevailing feelings of the people, but at the
same time to maintain such a control over them as to
prevent an improper appointment—he thought such a pri-
vilege existed for a most useful purpose, regarding this pri-
vilege as the link between the church and the crown
which was sanctioned by the law. If that power and
authority were exercised fur the purposes of political par-
tisanship, he would say such conduct constituted good
grounds for investigation ; but if it were honestly exercised
for the purpose of rewarding young men of merit, who,
though they might be unknown to and unconnected with
any parish, might still, if appointed to it, be of great ser-
vice to the inhabitants, he would maintain that the power
of the crown, so lar from being diminished, should, if pos-
sible, be extended. The great object of those who supported
that motion appeared to be to introduce popular elec-
tions. If the result of the appointment of the committee
should be to abolish patronage altogether, there would be
much less security than at present for the appointment of
efficient, moderate, and well informed ministers, and great
risk would be run that the harmony and tranquillity of
the parishes would be destroyed in consequence of the bit-
ter spirit which would naturally prevail during elections.
If the control of the crown were altogether to be removed