The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-13 00:00:00

TUESDAY- EVENING, MAY l3, 1851.

IMPERI

The Foreman of the jury, Dr. Wilson, conceived that
11 stone was nearer an average.
There was some further conversation, all turning upon
the point of how the weight could be ascertained; one
person suggested that the area of each carriage might be
t.,ken, and the number of persons who could stand on it,
and their weight. Another suggestion was that a car-
riage should be filled and weighed, empty and full, and
that seemed to receive the sanction of the parties inte-
rested. Captain Laffau showed how he had ascertained
the weight of dead metal in the train, still going on Mr.
Bragge 's figures, and remarked that Mr. Norris had ar-
rived, by a separate calculation, at within half a ton of
the same weight as himself.
The jury broke up with the understanding that the
engine was to be tested on Monday (this morning), with
the full calculated weight.
It is but justice to Mr. Bragge to say that his calcu-
lation of weight did not accord with Captain Latin's.

THE ESTATE STEALING MORTGAGE SYSTEM.
Attention is directed to the estate stealing mortgage
system, practised by persons of apparent respectability
pretending to assist the owners of estates with advances.
In building transactions the cases have been of common
occurrence, oa account of ti-:e high rate of interest, large
margin of value, and opportunities for disputing every
advance required as the works proceed.
In man) other cases, examination of titles and sur-
veys of property, are charged for without the slightest
intention of making advances, and abstracts or other im-
portant documeets detained until extortionate charges
are paid.
Tne most effectual remedy against such frauds will be
a register of cases, and the names of parties engaged in
concocting theal,and mortgagors should become members
of protection societies to ascertain who may be safely
trusted in such important negotiations. Respectable so-
ILitors and honourable agents will also derive advantage
by being distinguished from the disreputable.
The want of public attention to this description of
fraud has been the cause of depriving thousands of
widows and orphans of property ample for their support
if it had been fairly protected.
Ttie abwes under the foreclosing system in the Court
of Chancery, facilitate the frande in many cases, instead
of protecting, mut tgagora trypublic asks in the way cal-
culated t 3 obtain the best pristes, or granting reasonable
time fur redernpti.,n, according to circumstances.
The estate stealing mortgage system is in principle
similar to bill stealing, but carried on by a more wealthy
class of practitionfTs.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 12.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Lord CAMPBELL said, in reference to the two Bills
relating to the amendment of the criminal law which
stood for committal that day, he had received a commu-
nication from Lord Denman, stating that he approved
of the principle of those Bills, and that he should
wish to suggest some amendments in them; now
as the suggestions of his Noble and Learned Friend
could not but be most valuable, and he was happy to:find
that his Noble and Learned Friend still took an interest
in the subject, he would move the postponement of the
Committee on those Bills, in order to afford him an op-
portunity of receiving the very valuable suggestions of
his Noble and Learned Friend.—Agreed to.
EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time, and passed.
INDEMNITY BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
PETITIONS.
The Bishop of WINCHESTER presented several pe-
titions against Papal aggression.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several
petitions against Papal aggression.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from a parish
in Perthshire to the same purport.
The Earl of ENNISKILLEN presented several peti-
tions from places in Ireland to a similar purport.
The Duke of ARGYLE presented several, petitions
from places in Scotland to a similar purport.
The Earl of HARROWBY presented several peti-
tions praying for a repeal of the Sale of Beer Act; also
several petitions in favour of copyhold enfranchisement.
FOREIGN FLOUR.
The Earl of GLENGALL presented a petition of
which he had given notice from the grand jury of Tip-
perary in favour of protection to home-made flour.
The Noble Earl said this was a most serious question.
There was as large an amount of capital invested in
flour-mills as there was in cotton-mills, and in Ireland
the flour establishments were as large as the cotton es-
tablishments in England, and now the French had
erected mills and undersold them in the market in the
finer specimens of flour. The Irish mill-owners had pur-
chased up all the corn in Ireland, and had driven
a most profitable trade in it, and now their profits would
be sensibly diminished by the importation of French
flour, and the carriage of corn and flour would be di-
minished. He had frequently seen in the town with
which he was connected 500 or 600 carts employed in
carrying corn to these mills, and bringing the
flour away. The consequence of free trade had
been that these mills had been ruined, aid
that the people had been compelled t live upon that
nasty filth called Indian meal, which was positively
poisonous. The people could not work upon it. In all
the milling districts the workhouses were crowded, and
they bad been compelled to take auxiliary workhouses,
and those auxiliary workhouses had formerly been stores
for the millers for Irish corn. This was a positive fact.
It reacted on this country, producing a deluge of Irish
paupers, who were sent over by the Irish unions at half-
a-crown a head; and if they continued the free-trade
system they would have all the Irish paupers sent over
to England. Now for the facts. In 1849 there had
been imported into England of foreign flour 3,349,899
cwt.; in 1850, 3,890,440 cwt.; whereas hi 1847 there
had been imported only 1,339,000 cwt. of flour. He
then proceeded to show that a large bonus was realized by
importing foreign grain in the shape of flour, instead of in
its raw material, owing to its being rendered capable of
stowage in a smaller compass by that process. He con-
tended that there was as large an amount of capital invested
in flour mills as there was in cotton mills; that in Ireland
the flour mills were as costly as the cotton mills of England ;
and that it was a lamentable circumstance that the French
millers, who lived at no cost on board of the vessels with
which they imported the finest flour into Ireland, should
undersell the Irish and the British miller in their own mar-
kets. He concluded by expressing his conviction that free
trade would be destructive of all the best interests of the
country, and that under its fatal dominion industry would
never reap the advantages which were its due, and skill and
energy would be of no use.
Earl GRANVILLE observed that it was always a dis-
agreeable task to make a reply to a statement of distress,
when, in admitting the existeuce of that distress to a certain
extent, you had to deprecate the remedy which was proposed
for its relief. He (lid not feel himself bound on the present
occasion either to reply to the objections which the Noble
Earl had urged against the system of free trade generally, or
to enter into a discussion on the state of Ireland, into which
the Noble Earl had entered so largely, especcially when the
accounts which he had received- from various quarters dis-
proved, rather than proved, the accuracy of the Noble Earl's
information. He believed that the -distress suffered by the
millowners of Ireland, and so elaborately detailed by the
Noble Earl, existed to a considerable extent; but he could
not agree with the Noble Earl that it arose from increased
competition with the Freech millowners, or with his sug-
gestion that protection to home-Made flour would be the best
remedy for it. He also believed that distress was sustained
by the millowners of England. They were undergoing at
this moment the same fate which often befell the manufac-
turers of the country. Amid the, improvements which had
recently been made in the construction of mills and machi-
nery, it was found that those millowners who had a limited
capital, and resided at a distance front the best markets
were gradually displaced by those who had a larger amount
of capital, and who had the benefit of the best markets. It
could not be disadvantageous to the millowners to have the
raw material of their trade cheap; for its cheapness led to
greater consumption on thopart of the people; and, there-
fore, they must derive advantage, as well as the bulk
of the
community, from having a larger introduction of grain than
formerly into the markets of this ceuntry. With regard to
the competition of the French millowners, he had recently
seen a French gentleman, well known to many of their Lord-
ships, who had recently held high office in France, M. De-
lessert (we think his Lordship said), and that gentleman
had informed him that there was nD branch of industry in
France in which so much progress hid been made in the last
20 years as that with which 'the millowncra were connected,
and that, nevertheless, the millowners were at that moment
complaining loudly of the insufficient remuneration which
they received in return for their laboar and their capital. It
was clear, from the statement made to him by M. Delessert,
that some of the minor millowners of France must have
given way in the competition which they bad recently under-
gone with the larger capitalists, and yet he did not expect
that any of their Lordships would be prepared to say that it
would have been a wise measure on tie part of the French
Government to have bolstered up the weaker portion of this
trade by aid furnished from the resources of the state. An-
other observation which had fallen from the Noble Earl was
that the French farmer was deriving great profit from im-
porting corn to England. Now he (Earl Granville) had
every reason to believe that the cantrary was the fact. The
same complaints which were made in England of the dis-
tressed condition of the English fanner were made in France
respecting the distressed condition 'of tie French farmer. He
likewise believed that the great distnies alleged to be suf-
fered by the British milloo ners was disproved by the success
of the mill recently erected at Battersta, and by the nume-
rous new mills now in course of Contraction in different
parts of the country. The Noble Earl had suggested that
flour should be immediately protected by a duty, which
would enable the miller to continue his operations. He
(Lord Granville) was not disposed to underrate the very
dangerous commercial, political, and social consequences which
he believed would result if the Legislatire determined to re-
vert to the system of protective import duties upon grain ; but
he must say he thought such a measure would be infinitely
more defensible than to afford protectios to the millers be-
cause a portion of that body were involved in some distress
in consequence of the altered circumcances of their re-
spective localities. The Noble Earl had said that this ques-
tion would be brought torward again,; ani he could only say
that, if a definite proposition were submitted to the House,
his Noble Friends behind him would be quite ready to dis-
cuss it.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said hehad taken some pains
about a fortnight ago to ascertain the real state of the agri-
cultural body in France, aod he had' been informed that
during the year 1850 the amount of agricaltural produce—
wheat, wheaten flour, and barley—exported from France to
this country was equal in value (as we understood) to some
2,00t),0001. beyond the ordinary exports. ",,It was clear, then,
that France could not only feed her own people, but had a
surplus of food to spare; and it could.- not, therefore, be
Maintained that the agricultural body in' France were in a
similar condition to the agriculturists of this country. If the
French exported at a loss, was it conceivable that their ex•
ports would have increased in three years from 2'6,000
quarters to 595,000 quarters? Noble Lords opposite had
publicly lamented the distress of the agricultual interest;
the Noble Earl (Granville) had acknowledged that distress
existed among the millers; but yet these Noble Lords had
not made the slightest attempt to relieve that-distress.
The Earl of HARDWICKE considered it a striking fact
that there was not one interest which came before either
House of Parliament that was not in a depressed condition.
The distress of the agricultural interest, had been acknow-
ledged in the Speech from the Throne; and now the millers,
freetraders themselves, had turned round and were, ,calling
upon Parliament for protection. It was said ,that these
petitioners were milers who were in a small way of business,
but very recently a miller of Wakefield, who fed 200,000
people from his mill, had written to. Mr. Cobden, as his re-
presentative, begging him to change his views on "the sub-
ject of free trade. What, too, was the condition of th,e ship-
ping interest, and what was the character of the daily and
weekly rep its of trade from Manchester ? He might remind
their Lordships, that Ireland was no longer a floui ishiugaex-
porting country, as it was previously to 1845, but that it was
now a large importing country.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE observed, that if Noble
Lords opposite thought proper to bring the state of Ireland
under discussion, he thought his Noble Friends would be able
to show that the various interests of that country were. not
in the distressed condition that had been represented. The,
whole question of protection and tree trade was raised by the
suggestion of the Noble Earl, that an import duty should be
imposed upon flour, and into that subject he would not enter.
He might say, however, as the Noble Earl had referred to
the number of paupers in Ireland, that although it was un-
fortunately too true that the workhouses in the west of
Irelmd were extremely full, be would ask the Noble Earl
what would be the condition of the ratepayers, as well as of
the paupers in those unions, if, instead of having food at
the reasonable price at which it was now obtained, protec-
tive duties were imposed which rendered the price' of food
high ?—(Hear, hear.) He 'Could speak confidently as to the
opinion of the Poor-law guardians, and he had not met
with a single guardian in Ireland who was not so far an ad-
vocate of free trade as to say, " If we had not at this tin.e
cheap food, it would be utterly impossible for us to support
our paupers." He believed that no persons had suffisred so
much from the removal of protective duties as the millers in
the south and west of Ireland, but the question raised by
the Noble Earl (Glerigall) was one of great importance; and
unfortunately the case of the Irish millers could not be con-
ridered in an isolated point of view, and without reference to
other interests of the country.
After a few words in reply from the Earl of GLENGALL,
The Duke of ARGYLL observed, that there was an im-
mense pressure upon Glasgow, and other large towns in
Scotland, in consequence of the influx of Irish paupers.
The parochial officers were frequently obliged to give them
half-a-crown a-piece to sena them back to Ireland—(A laugh)
—and he hoped that no more half-crown paupers would be
sent over from Ireland.
The Rat of LUCAN was sure his Noble Friend (the Earl
of Glengall)-had never intended to say that it was the prad-
tics to send over paupers from Ireland.—(Laughter.) He
had, during the last ten years, resided in that country for a
eonsiderable part of every year, and at no former period was
there anything at all equal to the amount of distress at pre+
sent, existing there. At no period was the cultivation of
land in Ireland so totally neglected' as at this moment, es-
pecially in Mayo and Galway, and he therefore thought it
was, if he might .use the expression- without offence, tolerably

MONEY-ORDER OFFICE.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS gave notice of his intention to
put a question to the Secretary of the Treasury to-mor-
row on the -übj,ct of the money-order department of the
General Poit-office.
PUSEYISM IN THE CHURCH.
Sir B. HALL asked the Prime Minister what steps
the archbishops and bishops of the Established Church
had taken in pursuance of the letter addressed by the
Secretary of State to the Archbishop of Canterbury, b)
command of her Majesty, for the purpose of suppressing
certain practices in places of worship belonging to the
Established Church; zed whether the Bishop of London
had taken, or was about to take, any legal proceedings
against any of the clergy who sanctioned what his Lord-
ship calls "histrionic performances," in the churches
within his diocese.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was not in a position to
state what steps had been taken with respect to the
matter alluded to by the Hon. Baronet, and strongly
deprecated the inconvenience which would arise from
asking such questions in the House.
NEW RIDE IN KENSINGTON-GARDENS.
Mr.HUME intimated that he would bring the subject
as to the proposed new ride in Kensington-gardens
before th. House to-morrow.
EX rENSION OF THE FRANCHISE.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE gave notice of a motion for
next session with respect to the extension of the
franchise.

ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL.
On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. MOORE rose to move that the standing order,
which requires that Bills concerning religion should be
first considered in a Committee of the whole House, be
read, and that the order for the Committee on Eccle-
siastical Titles Assumption Bill be discharged. The
reason of this motion was, he said, drawn from
the standing order of the House, which
declared that all Bills relating to religion or
any alteration proposed in the laws on this point should
Originate in a Committee of the whole House. Mr. May,
a high authority in these matters, had said that this
order had always been construed as applying to religion,
and not to the temporalities of religion bodies, and it was
on this ground that the Roman Catholic Relief Bill had
been considered first in a Committee of the whole House;
and afterwards the Church Temporalities Ireland Bilf
had been brought in without that preliminary step. He
was quite willing to admit, if the Bill were to be regarded
only with reference to its first motive, or if the amend-
ments of the Government were to restore It to a mere
temporal measure, that his objection would at once fall
to the ground, but his objection was against the Bill as
first introduced, and he thought it was not necessary
fur him to argue before any lawyer or educated
gentleman of that House that ordination and
Ihe administration of sacraments were not
mere temporal incidents, but essentially spiritual.
He quoted a letter from Archbishop Murray, in which
that Rev. Prelate stated that he could not perform his
ecclesiastical functions except in his character of arch-
bishop, end then the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to ob-
serve that the letter containing that opiniom produced
such an effect upon the Noble Lord at the head of the
,Government, that, with a spirit of liberality which re-
called the incidents of the Noble Lord's early career, he
consented to make a material alteration in the Bill. Now,
assuming the opinion of Dr. Murray, and the admission et
the Government that followed, to be correct, bow could
any one pretend to say that the Bill related only to tem-
poralilies, and would in no way interfere with reli-
gion P But it might be said that Dr. Murray was
no lawyer, and therefore his opinion could not
he held to be conclusive. Well, in order to meet that
objection, a ca,e had ken submitted to Mr. Willes, of
the Toner Temple, one of the. Commissioners appointed
to inquire into the hest means of amending the law
on this very subject, and he had given it
:as his opinion, which had since been confirmed by Sir
Fitzroy Kelly and Mr. Baddeley, that this Bill, if it
passed into a law, would place the duty of Dr. Murray,
as an archbishop of his Church, in direct
eoefliet with his duty as a subject of the
Queen. It might, however, also be objected
that the effect of the Bill was only constructive
and not direct; but though he was not lawyer enough
t
to decide between the two he was sufficiently learned
to perceive that the effect of the Bill upon hc
Catholic Church would be to prevent the
ec exercise
of religious functions, and hence the
not be constructive, but direct.—(Hear, (Hear'
standing order to which he referred was made in 1773
din
to the House
hear.)efft mTuhs
on the occasion of a Bill being introduced
When that Bill went up to the House _
it on the ground
of Commons for the relief of Protestant DoifsseLnutreurs:
s
several of the bishops objected
that it was
Afteren and it
was consequently negatived.the rejection of th
erleyted to
improperly
ethyeruodoifftseirueendt. frAomndthi;
ever there was a Bill which showed the wisdom ot
' Bills being introduced into Parliament
Bill, this standing order was passed, in order in future
to guard against
(
cr
el and dueuattui nr ee lyo
withf
the parotvitilseioanistogth''
this enactment, or to what it was intended to apply, it
was the present one. He considered if the Bill had been
prough; forward ifs Committee its Whole proilione