The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-19 00:00:00

PENSION LIST.

Mr. HARVEY, in rising to move for the appointment
of a Select Committee to it quire into the consideration
for which each pension had been granted, as the sums ap-
peared by the printed returns of August last, thought
there was little occasion for him to appeal to the
indulgence of the House. True it was, that in the last
Parliament be should have viewed the unusual array of
Hon. Members opposite with no inconsiderable appre-
hension. He should have considered that many, and
the great body of those whom he had the bonnur
now to address, bad been invited thither by some
Treasury notice, intimating that a formidable and ex-
ceptionable motion was about to be submitted to con-
sideration. In a reformed Parliament, however, he felt
assured no such summons was necessary to invite the repre-
sentatives of the people to the redemption of their solemn
engagements. He would appeal to every gentleman who
heard him, and who called to mind the solemn compact
into which he had entered with his constituents, to tell him
whether there was any subject of a domestic interest, what-
ever its nature, to be compared to the Pension List ?
--(Hear.) If he were calkd on now to say what was the
cause more than any other, that burled the last
Government from their position and placed the present one
in their places, he should say that it was the hostility of the
one to, and the avowed declarations of the other in favour
of, an inquiry into the pensions.—(Hear.) He was now
addressing several Members who were present when the
question respecting the Civil List was brought before the
House, on the accession of his present Majesty to the
throne, and when it was proposed that the Pension List
should be reduced to 144,0001. An Hon. Member, now
the Member for Dundee, then moved an amendment
and enforced it by various cogent, and, as the result
proved, successful reasons, that the proposed list should
be referred to, and scrutinized by a Select Committee.
That amendment was resisted, but it triumphed ; it over-
threw the Government of that day, and it introduced the
reformers of the present, and this was the first occa-
sion since that the pension list had been impartially
and coolly submitted to the attention of the House. He
was most anxious now to bring it forward, because every
day confirmed the irregularity of the practice and strength-
ened the plea by which the pensions were maintained.
It was true that before and after the passing of the Reform
Bill various incidental discusions upon the subject had taken
place. Previous to the passing of that great measure,
however, everything else was considered of minor impor-
tance, for fear of endangering that Bill. But it was
not forgotten—it only slumbered for a time.— (Hear.)
They had now triumphed in that great object, and the
people more than that House, more than the Govern-
ment, and even more than a constitutional Monarch,
bad secured that splendid triumph, and were now only
anxious to reap the benefit of it. There was now no
object on which the expectations and anxious hopes of the
people were more deeply fixed than the pension list.
In his opinion, every man who felt himself pledged to the
country for economy, every man who did not shrink from
his engagements to the people—(Hear, hear, hear)—
every roan who was prepared to say that his promises
were not mere delusion, must keep to his post, and
not be absent on the present occasion.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) He could wish, not only upon this, but upon all
similar occasions, that a different course could be pur-
sued, which would save the time of the House. In his
opinion, in the present instance the debate ought to have
commenced with the opposition to the motion. He was
quite aware of the mass of ingenuity and sinister dexterity
that those who brought forward the motion had to en-
counter ; but it would be enough for hint to say, that he
felt convinced the present motion would be carried ; he was
not so apprehensive for the fate of the mo•ton upon its
merits, as front the ingenuity which he saw around him,
lie were to untold the Pensio❑ List, and speak of any
individual in terms of measured kindness, all the
fashion of the Court would be in arms, and
when they heard the Honourable Member
for Colchester single out Lady A. or Lady 8.,
what a pity it would he that every body on that side of
the House should not be in Court uniforms, as in the ease
of the mover and seconder of the address on the first day
of the session. He could conceive the case of a party de-
claring he was prepared to ascertain what the motion was,
but that when he heard the Hon. Member for Colchester,
and heard himn speak of Lady A. and 8., and speak of
them, too, in democratic language, he was up in arms
and ready to denounce the conduct of the House. Still
was he determined to press the inquiry, and willingly
could he leave it to the decision of a Committee of that
House, after its having declared, perhaps with rudeness,
out certainly with candour, on a former occasion, that an
inquiry ought to be instituted, and that it would be well
pleased to refer the whole matter to the investigation of a
Committee. Let the Committee of Inquiry be but ap-
pointed, and lie would venture to say that there was not
a fair dame on the pension list, from the oldest dowager
down to the youngest and freshest beauty, who would
not be found to have earned he: portion by sow oubstan-•

tial and honourable service.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Let it not be supposed that the people of England, although
speaking in uncouth language, and with ungloved band
and uncourtly step, were desirous of depriving these fair
and fashionable personages of the fair reward of their
merit; all they wished to know was, how and why they
had obtained such rewards, and the grounds upon which
they ought to be coettinued to then,. Let it not for a
moment be said that the generosity of the people would
refuse those grants. Indeed the real fault of the people
was, that they were ready to outstrip even the means
which Parliament and the Government possessed to re-
ward those who bad served them, provided only that they
were made acquainted with the nature and extent of the
service rendered. There was not a person in this country,
however lowly his station, however slowly 1 e might
wend his way through the difficulties by which he was
surrounded, who was not anxious to reward merit
where merit had been displayed in the public
service. Surely then, it was not ton much to
refuse to that people an account of the nature and extent
of the service rendered. But hitherto all accounts of this
kind had been refused. Prior to Mr. Burke's celebrated
Bill on the pension list, there was no limit to it beyond
public decency, and how small that decency was, the
House might form an opinion from what took place upon
that occasion. In the reign of George 111. the pension
list was brought under the consideration of the House,
and the highest authority was quoted to show that the
pensioners were so appointed under the King's Royal pre-
rogative ; in fact, it was urged that the King did all—
that he had a right to do all--with respect to that list.
Upon discussion and an attempt at investigation, it was
found that there was an item of 95,0001. of pensions for
England, a sum of 50,0001. for Scotland, and an ade-
quate proportion for Ireland, and then Hon. Gentle-
men of that day, wise and honest Senators no doubt,
found out that the pension list could not be disposed of by
the Crown without the control of the House of Com-
mons. Well, after the pension list was declared to be
open to inquiry, various measures were resorted to,
much ingenuity was exerted to obtain some information
on the subject, but as usually the case where place
and power conjoined, there was much more ingenuity
employed to evade such inquiry. At one time a motion
was made, calling for an entire list of pensioners, with
the grounds upon which they had received their pensions.
But this was at once met with a denial, and—" Oh no,"
said the Ministers of that day, " you cannot call for the
entire list, you have no right to it, as it is at the disposal
of the Crown ; but point out to us any instance where you
say that a pension has been improperly bestowed, and we
will inquire into it." Thus matters proceeded from time to
time, but as patriotism raised the thermometer of public opi-
nion a fair and full inquiry was insisted upon. But witheut
detaining the House further, he had batter come at once
to what took place in 1830, when the prerogatives
of the Crown with respect to the pension list under-
went inquiry, and when the price of that inquiry
was to a certain extent their extinction. On that
occasion the civil list was referred to a Committee,
and he had now before him the names of the gen-
tlemen who were appointed to compose it. It was
then stated by the present Right Hon. Member for
Dundee, then Member for the Queen's County (Sir H.
Parnell), that the pension list was an object which re-
quired the strictest and closest scrutiny. But the Com-
mittee, for some reason or reasons which he could not
that of this sum, 75,0001. was to continue on the Civil
cio.imiepereihveandzisetntaemreoduinntteodnotlin
,utanthdeytheleiyd
stha.iids:
List, and the other sum, the faience that was 'amount-
ing to nearly an equal sum, was to be placed upon the
114"4ir,y000/B.
consolidated fund. Thus decrepit old age on the one band,
and blooming infancy on the other, were cut off from A
to H oe the civil list, and the rest were placed- on the
consolidated fund, so that when death had established a
more solid claim to these recipients of 75,000/. than this
House had, it was so arranged th tt their successors might
lay lawful claim, for so he supposed he must call it, to a
continuance of such pensions. Now he was in no way a
party to this arrangement, and therefore he might be per-
mitted to say that considerable liberality was manifested in
it as it went to cut down the pension list, which was pre.
vious to Mr. Burke's Bill declared to be enormous, and left
at the demise of the crown a comparatively small sum, a
sum of '75,000/. He thanked God that he was an ob-
scure man—one of those whose words, though uttered
to-day, would be forgotten to-morrow. He did not pre-
tend or hope to be one of those bright dazzling geniuses,
who, if they were to arise from the grave some thirty
years hence, might be told " on such a day, and on such a
subject, you said so and so."—(Hear, and a laugh.) - He
would not go into details at present, but would reserve'
himself, particularly as it had been already admitted that
such an inquiry ought to be entered into. The Noble
Lord opposite, it would be recollected, had, in July last,
in common with many Hon. Members, whose names it
would be invidious to mention, declared that the question
of the pension list was one which ought to be, and which
must be brought under the consideratir n of the House.
Upon the occasion of a grant being asked for, in which
the pension list was included, the Noble Lord (Al-
thorp) came forward, and with his usual candour
and straightforwardness declared, that in voting in favour
of that grant, no man would be committed as to the
vote be might feel inclined to give upon an inquiry into the
pension list, should that question be again brought under
the consideration of the House. The Noble Lord bad
stated in 1831 (he believed) that it was certainly true
there were many persons on the pension list to whom
pensions ought not to he granted, but that the greater
portion of the persons upon it were objects of charity, to
take away trout whom the sums bestowed upon them
would be to inflict an injury—(Hear)—although it was
admitted by hire that the House had a right to take awry
those pensions if they pleased. But the main point upon
which the Noble Lord rested was, that no Alember was
to be committed by his vote upon that occasion, in the
event of any further inquiry into the pension list. Now
he would venture to say that the whole question was as
much open to inquiry as it was in 1830, when the Right
Hon. Member for Dundee (Sir H. Parnell) declared that
" the pension list required the strictest and closest inquiry."
If then this were so, how, he would ask, were they to
proceed ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) It he were to place
confidence iu the rumours which were abroad, he must
come to the conclusion that his motion was to be re-
sisted. Was this an ? But he felt that he ought to
cease to trouble the House further by arguments, and
at once ask them were they prepared to stultify their
own resolutions ? Motions had recently been made on
this subject, which, if he reminded Hon. Members of
them, they might turn up their eyes and say that they did
not remember. In May, 1833, be (Mr. D. W. Harvey)
moved fur a return of all the pensions then existing on the
civil list, the amount of the whole, the names of the par-
ties, the services for which they were granted, &c.
The Noble Lord opposite said he was perfectly willing to
go as far as to give an account of the pensioners placed on
the consolidated fund ; but that he must refuse any ac-
count of the civil list. But the Noble Lord, feeling the
full force of the question, and being unwilling to shake off
that high character which he had acquired while sitting
on the Opposition side of the House, consented that the
motion should pass. It was true, that the Paymaster of
the Forces entered the House just after he had concluded
his reply, and happy was it for him (Sir. Harvey) that
it was so, for as it wee, he had to beg for mercy, or else
he would have been so mangled and disfigured, that he
must have been unable to appear before them on the pre.-
sent occasion, and it be did appear, it must be upon signing a
truce, and giving a pledge to abjure for ever all intererence
with the pension list.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He would read
the order of the 22d of May, 1833, being the first session
of the reformed Parliament, in which he found that an
humble address was ordered to lie presented to his
Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to
order that there be laid before the House an account of
with
He wis
knew
n of the
w tha Ht
io tu es oeuo fld, Commons
he ktiew th in 1833 the English, Irish, and Scotch pension list, with the names
of the parties, the date of the grant, and the service for or
ground upon which it had been granted. Such was the
will
that wish be no complied with? ought it to be complied
tieliBt 3o3ug ;litc,o butu
could
much thought that it would not. Tile Hou. Member
for Merthyr Tidvil, a Member, be it observed, of an un-
reformed Parliament (he was anxious to distinguish be-
tween unreformed and reformed Parli intents), moved an
inquiry into the grounds upon which a pension had been
granted to a latiy—to Mrs. Arbuthnot—amounting to
900/. a year. The answer was, that the pension had not
been vested in trustees for the lady for life, but during his
Majesty's Royal pleasure; or, ,in the words of the grant
'6 during our pleasure." Now, if the grants to the
other ladies should be in the same terms, and on
tie same grounds, then they would run somewhat
thus—" Whereas, we have been pleased to grant to
our trusty and well-beloved cousin" (well-beloved was
a term well suited to ladies), such and such a sum
per year " during our Royal will and pleasure," &c.
&c. &e. Wiry certainly, those who gave pleasure
bad a right to expect grants during pleasure.—(Hear,
and a laugh.) But when a Committee of honest and
disinterested men—disinterested save where their country
was concerned—were called together, he would say that
one of two things, indeed say both, must happen. All
CLOS.; who were on the pension list, and who felt that
they had a right to be there, would press forward with an
ituZioty 10 relieve themselves from the oppwbrium of Iniog

classed with the general herd who now laboured under tgr
stigma of having dishonestly, nay dishonourably, been Plaaq,
'
on the pension list. He said this, because, disguigg
I i
as they might, they must know that the whole petisiotl
list laboured under this censure ; that they were dr
tamed by general servility, or by drawing-room
col! t
piiances.—(A cry of " Order.") I'le Hon. Membe:ger:,
might cry ‘. Order," but if he (Mr. D. W. Harvey)
01.
some twenty er five-antlA m
wenty years younger, be W. •
sure that he should have, for making this otrogrl
luxurious indolence, the money dragged from
the thanks of the fairest and best of those whose reptits.
tions would be rescued from the charge of enjoyieg, 111
industry of the country.—(Hear.) It might be god t
the charge he made cast imputations upon, and 9/111
give offence to, many Noble Lords. Butte e was surent tt.-
this could not be so ;on the contrary, felt convi eed
that there was not a Noble Lord who was himself, or wha:
had a fair relative upon that het, who would not anxiouglil
silence
rush for ward to rescue his own character, and much inee,,
so that of his fair relative, from the imputation under
which the pension list, as a general body, laboured. ..1
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He felt that while mai
the
said
ti
would eagerly rush forward with trophies in their hatgllr
declaratory of their right to such pensions, and in order toj
justly their due, others, perhaps, from JAW( '
circular
glanced at some such little document as a
suspicion, and obtain the praise'
which we'. a/
from the Committee, would beg to retire, Present'
ing their sincere acknowledgments to the count*:
for having been allowed to be the recipients for the coast 54
years ague!) large sums of the public money.--(ll,e,grt
Committee such as this? But, above all,
and a laugh.) Surely it was not too much to expect ire"'
a reformed House of Commons that they would grant
much to expect that it would be granted by a reform Ad,
ministration, who had shown such honourable and kindli
feeling at every suggestion of reduction in our expendituroo
14:9 motion would be for such an inquiry into the pensio.
list as would enable the country to see how and when easy
pension was granted, and the service by which each pen:
Ilion had been earned.—(Hear, hear.) His motion ought
not to be resisted on the plea of the privilege of the Crovra•
it 9788 not too
The Crown was only a trustee for the public, as far as tbil
civil list was concerned, otherwise why allow of any core,
trot at all? No doubt Ministers would bear,- from mad!
Hon. Members for counties and cities, something like MI
following :—" God forbid that we should charge his Sail
jesty's Ministers with having acted wrongly upon Oil
matter ; but we have been to the markets, we 10/11
seen the hnmble fare of the people, and God knows their
is nothing but bumble fare left to them; we have mio"
sled with these—we do not mean to say the democractH
the mere people, but the thinking, reading Public, and they]
have all seen this pension list, and say, one and all, that
we will resist it, that it cannot be suffered ;" and the"rill
they (the Members) could not vote for them in cens'
quence. And then some four or five Cabinet Ali:Mall
would say, " God bless us, this is very odd, very linPles.
the
sent ; and in order to meet the evil, we will remove
ieb
i
list from A to Z, from one fund to another, by v/11,.f
some poor souls might be shifted off." PerhaPs
a
concession like this might be attempted now, but this woll
not what be wanted ; be was anxious to obtain a full ja"
quiry into the whole pension list. Indeed, be did exPeeS
that the Noble Lord opposite would have arisen before ga‘si
and told him that he would spare him the trouble of out!:
ing a statement, as he was determined to grant all P.
asked ; but, as he had been disappointed in all thigr be
would now move for the appointment of a Select 0°1;
mittee to inquire into each grant on the pension list, ga"

report the same to the House.
Two or three Members rose to second the motion. ,
Lord ALTHORP said that, before he entered into the
details of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's rriotioat_en
felt it necessary to diserniarrass the question of one or Ev`i
statements upon points on which the Hon. and years
AhGlartdlaei
kemre'nas
npwlamemorycaes mistakeno n seemedfi,
me r
upon
failn
debates.t himl3e
qTuhewes
ti
iohon
or
thate. sapne respect
ißity earnedll
wished to go not into an inquiry of the pension ltt
of the whole civil list. The Hon. and Learne:l. be;,
Learned
00
had stated that he (Lord Altborp) had admitted that hf„.is
a former occasion, when he applied for a grant
{hewswllol
the pension list was included, be admitted t • .
still an open question, should it be broughttbi
and that no person could be committed by his vote aPoe.t'svoi
grant, either for or against it. He admitted that su
arr 4
the fact; lie had stated to those who voted for the g
that they would not be bound by that vote, but that
question of the pension list would still remain au Tot
one, shuld it be brought forward beyond this be b
never goo ne, and indeed he could not hove gone 111r,.1,,vi.°
as if he had, he should have acted contrary to the P"-•,0%
Membersions of the Act. The Hon. and Learned hal-bg
gone through former debates, was now desirous, ee° to
(Lord Althorn) understood, to appoint a O'it'Tig"-- order,
inquire into the several cases in the pension list, 1- oil "
to see (if he rightly understood him) whether persons b
improperly received pensions, and if so, .Whetber 111:d
pensions should be continued. The Honourable
to,
Learned Member then meant to say, that if set P be
sions hcd been improperly granted, they Bb°u,'horp) I
rescinded. Upon this ground he (Lord Altbt be
was ready to meet him. The pensions Wig
_toay.
granted by the Crown, hut they could not be takensaioo to
Ministers were doubtless responsible for their ad., ,tat'
the Crown on such occasions, but be that advice
l'atogi_a be ;
wrong, the person receiving such pension eouldt. 5 clad
deprived of it. There could be no doubt but boatt'beo
parties who now held pensions were legally entit:ledotr 00
The original grant ofsuch pensions might be right
_ot tsits
be wrong ; I is Majesty's present advisers couldh
ensioo
upon themselves to say that the payment of see Poops
to
owohgolimt totibieeydiwspeernesegdrawn
tietdh,
reinliaesdmuuttphonasti!heofsaeitteaodimtirlir
responsible advisers of the Crown during whese • tole'
tration they were granted. According to every in
to
cation of various Acts of Parliament, accordiegivieri
the admitted rules of the responsibility of those pre
of the Crown who grant pensions, his Majesleot,ioo
sent Government could not in justice say then' does
granted before their accession to office should he
„Igo/
away with. The original grant of these ..,P,eg Pe!.
might be right or might be wrong, and be Thlis ;
nuw called upon to give an opinion upon that questie
this he would say, that as at present advised, hetoioo4.,
not recommend his Sovereign to rescind these Pemette
which had been so forcibly alluded to by the iktoionif
ber for Colche-ten—(Hear, hear.) Those 13-litoint,
however, had been greatly reduced; and under theedit too
tion prescribed by Mr. Burke's Bill, a note
reign to :it 101
not only should but did take place. In the re'g was °P.
late Majesty, when the amount of the civil list
cettoift
tied, the amount of pensions was restricted within OA/
majesty:"
oel
limits ; and in the reign of his present
amount was more specifically defined and Pein,leolop
The pension list was about 74,0001. for 'an', Oa
58,0001. for Ireland, 30,457/. for Scotland, and UP-gkini
4i- per cent. West India duties, about 25,0001.,
aa tni d i
naggregatem moofn
justicesom elv somewhat ahboonuets2t
honesty,
hAteo :0/ i
dTahoatt -rh
sent at
i.r n,
de recommendptlto advocate
asdhvooucl
of pensions, however, was now reduced considell,,',l'
a'alteb:iallrllegyirdeater reduction. Legal rightsr,..l::7o
u other.--(Hear,
atoicni
er ertd.h.rass
Hounb,gjaerac,st
not be lightly violated, public faith not broken Viol,oo
subject. This doctrine might not be popular oat e•`;„- 60!
o•aler to avoid all cavil
but, in or out of doors, it was unded fin-sar
found
nurcommon sense and justice, and he never Wee" ill
that the civil lists of England, Scotland and Irciere"„-0•9
Illibelayrwiya:epAl3.::ol:ptdo'o;
ie
be consolidated, and that the prerogative of the '''-gaoti".
granting pensions, should not exceed '75,000/. Pete-toiali'i;
for the United Empire.—(Hear, hear.) It Witgf ire
he would , admit, for the House to consider wli,tl"jostbe
a small sum, or whether any sum should be ',este" 11/4
in
Crown to grant pensions for meritorious service'q te/16
fi Id—or scientific services for the benefit of the vet
was for the House, as he had just stated, to dew- 000'
V:esubject ; but as the matter at present stood, heir 10.134
confess he could not advise the Sovereign to do et! by b
;,ensions which had been granted to individuals it; !,",
predecessors in office, who were alone responsible
advice which they had given their Sovereign whee .be
p‘osions were granteii.—(Hear.) He took to„
rinciple, that under every form of Goveroangree,
governing power should have the power of rewarch%ser-
ritoriuus persons, or persons in distress, or those r
who, without any moral stain upon their chars('
unhappily "fallen from their higu estate." It
opinion that the governing power in every Sol
have the means of rescuing men of science and
from poverty or obscurity, and at all events give
means of an honourable existence.—(Cries of

In.ar.l He was very well aware that the pencil
it now stood, would not bear out what he had dI
w is as well aware as other Hon. Members that

stances might be quoted against him ; but, while
almays protest, and strongly protest, against allY
over in granting pensions to improper persoa'
improper uses, he must still say, that legal,
House preferred the word, that grants made by' a
upon the responsibility of his confidential advises.
not be lightly sported with.—(Hear, bear.) I
this, howe.er, be was far from admitting tturr
persons bad not been placed upon the pension
twar.) He did not mean to justify i!--he
its adviser nor its advocate—(Hear, bear)."Z
imeant to say was this, that the faith of

ie r`'j, ,
aced'
W.. 00
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et tb6
the 7,40
p J
f • '
ko' 11,
d! ,
431 e io
aufl ~0
be 0
rd"e.
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Sorevao;
r 4, 9-tioP
iti
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ge
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and the responsible adviseta of the Crown having been
Pledged to the parties who were pensioned, it would
ila breach of faith to deprive them of their pensions.
0 doubt many names were to be found upon the pen-
-4,10 bat which ought nut to.t— have been there—(Hear,
be)pen-
hear which
was no denyingthere were names which
would neither hive recommended nor approved,
"t yet they were recomemeindted to former Sovereigns by
their responsible advisers—and as such he would not in-
tthellere with them. The practice might have been bad -
I,mepriecedent might have been dangerous, and as far as in
lay,
he would scrupulouslyavoid the one and the
°ther•---(llear.) He oijected to this motion, because, if
its tendency would be to cripple the power of the
tereign to reward meritorious persons, or assist the
-ejentific in their labours, when those labours had worn
them out; for such pria4poses the power of the Crown
not'be tOO
th much restricted, and he really believed
4 0 greatest lover of economy in that House would
aeepunt e"
such a restriction. It was desirable on many
shothot persons connected with literary pursuits
4.,juld have %tittle means of assistance afforded them, when
th(,use"edait,° .11stress byrlisease;o'r poverty, or
_any other
hear.)f
C„ that " flesh is heir to."—(Hear,
'O5 d •,• • it be in the power of the
,town t euining age, should
taltbin ° reward turn of eminent literary talent, and
i
ectsttg„,,e'uld shed greater lustre upon the reigi? of a
llippyl.."7:l and liberal Monarch than to make their days
ht (llear, hear.) This truth every one would admit
mould ° cif admi led it to its fullest extent; but he
cNWnof at oi
' e 'aro- time admit that such a power in the
samer should not be abused—(Hear)—
ll.,P!rhaP,, in' h d been.—(Rear, hear.)
•:; c..ses it a
of ,°t attempt to disguise his opinions. The power
granti,,`:°wl.l had possibly been abused in the matvterers
of
'f the
- Pen'i°,ls, upon the responsibility of the advisers
that ,oWn for the tirivi being—(Hear, hear)—bus be
Prett:,i:t might, he would not deprive the Crown of the
leitcce4 of granting pensions to men of merit, of
Net at a", general literary attainments. If any case of
cut, h u" lo the granting of pensions could be made
t"ould bold] and honestly say that the gut ty
41'4.1_4, who gave yadvice to grant them should be pun-
bPitii;nlne-ir, Lear. ) He li al repeatedly stated his own
rr'tht-1)°11 this subi.er, and he would not reitera.e them
Vr"ellt • He was ready to a that a
; ttr,„ ecision.
-"e i-g I;')l3ular reeling prevaile ! noon the, subject of
111 Pen"u 6'l (Hear, hear.) He w,4s well aware that
tae
name
Pec"--sio(ner 'was odious ; and that any tuction
4aturu. all ,• pi was one of a highly popula.r
W el but •
be still thought it
otild deli With
all these admissions,.
desirat,!e to record the principles upon which
be 4441 d be granted for the future. He thought it
T,unjust to deprive any one of legal or vestedld
kit t4k,, rze thought a British House of Commons
.wou
'Xeteis `dafa3' the prerogative 0f the Crown when it was
!!!ittio.:4,4'°orf
.t,hie, safety and honour of the State—for the
i" tinder " arts and sciences, and with these feelings,
't reattiut.""e circumstances, he would move the follow.
tbe :74; by way of amendment to the motion of
l'hat ita "'Merl Member for Colchester :-
170 act,si aPPears from papers before the House, that upon
t °,.4,.,°fhs late Ma' ty th charge for pensions on the
,and jlersel;nd e ,
duties,
hereditary revenue of
ttitgl'iae 4n2 per Cent, stood as follows :
A 74,200
Ireland
Oaf Scotland
percents.

ah h £203,058
;
,-..tr —on the accession of his
present Majesty the charges of
ii +4ls .._
0 nature amounted to the following sums :
1 England ..................... ..X 74,200
i Ireland .................... ... 51,155
Scotland ...... • 30,467
41 Per Cent 5........ .. . ...... .. 25,122

x 180,944
„ ' 6, ,
'i,e d• ''' 015 Present Most Gracious Ma,sjeisntytehteasvtintegtphlaechederae-t
nit l'Posal of Parliament his Majesty
tsltyY revenues in the droits of the Crown and ofththee
uAndmitted-
Riii-RP well as the casual revenues, both within
ivere 4" and in his Majesty's foreign possessions,
dtuwtiofut
act:.
ta,hl)4sed by which the Legislature,
te:t' 'Sign.ed a civil list for the lifeinofp
l'dated fund,
those and raised further charges on the conso i
own
and
his Most Gracious
for th'er()viding for the honour and dignity of the Cr
„ ,risuPport of the civil Government.
the That under these Acts a sum of 75,0001. was fixed
_ase
bbalaatil-neQUnnf., of the pensions on the civil list of his MalsedtY,otl:.
wh,nek-• the existing pensions being otherwise prnv.i f
arrangement on termination of the existing inter,:
th.,
e, the wh(ile charge' of the pensions, except the charge
tohe
ti,Lgieiflolist will become saving to 'the public!taandount
14 1820, wr Irinbsi'n's, which is now 44,2631. below i
below tliat sure, reduced
eventually to 75,000!. being 138,0581.
the`.l2,h,aiet u_mier the provisions of these Acts, the efiesarsigoers, tient.,
c .s
17eus'enth\ai, e already been reduced, since the
hat the en;tlse'st• Gracluus
("'j
Illaitud by the „. r.ed.uction
ofestthy,eheyxtpheensduitmuroef,lta2oc,clt4h9el,..,sa_un_iind
bl, law. elvit lists Acts is progressive, and has been "A```
s,' That it is the bounden duty of
Mahe responsible attlsvoisferpsenof.
"e Crown, to recommend to his '4)rts °lithe civil list such j sty, for gran.
lt,_, , persons only as have just claims on the
Jai beneficence, or who, by their powerful services to the
Irs•. , by the performance of duties to the public, or by their
the'_l4 discoveries in science, and attainments in literature an
r,i4rts, have merited the gracious consideration of their Sove-
iii‘cti. and the gratitude of their country." -
he felt it
hi gat Stated these retrulations to the House, i I
not
4:0-41'7 to. state tile. the advisers of the Crown shoo ,
t, th ,'" any one for a pension.
111:0] tell "tate, Or fur the promozwenxcoerlitfeorrautuserilu,l
?.itr.e art%__(l-lear.)
with that part of the spe!'eh
of th vit°EBUCK concurred
men of e fr, in, 'lee
i 4 e: 'l'le Lord, in which lie said drat
the bt,!Y branch of art or science should he
But if the
4 'l4tin • fi . of disease or poverty.
protected from
,p(,nsit. g in uente
_,
Att;„ t'le advN,r3 of the Crown advised the granting of
""e to • 1 en he would say, that
lelt si ; unPl°Per Per'"'." 'The proposition of
th "NeilV.,ert ought to he pumshed. -
th ,e Lord (if it were agreed to) would go to pledge.
or' vg'°uNe not to interfere with what were called "legal
ti,(l rights," even thoudi such " legal or
tvo
08. d.
tip Were conferred by pensions; but to that p
toP
s:y
th,
tree
rivr could assent. It would be monstrous
.3_
tl,, 'l'4, House could not control the disbursement of
I,ll4Pulilic money, and it would tie
re:tt''os to say that it could not and ought not to e
(if possible) still m
x.
lilt 4 loud opinion on its tnisman .gemeut.—(H ar, hear.)l
Noble Lord even %vent further, fur he stated that al
sig,
fqr ;4 enjoy ing
Pensions, no matter how improperly con-
hc ,:---, 40 matter for what services—no
I\i,,,;lleell at all--he had a legal right in such pensions.
us
matter io
eei, aliaia any such proposition be (Mr. Roebuck) must
of c 14 pat
°test. What was the first duty of the
a'4l tih'ns, but to take care of the liberty of the subject,
1,,, 't he should not be unjustly taxed .for any purpose
oi
tho,-Is;'or, and inuch Inure so for the maintenance
It
urea Star
Pal -
who .. ;„ in, Bern phraseology,
t pensignpetv, icf-rep
n,,i,,n,
were improperly
11:o's" (ltld that was not denied)Pe it was the duty of
those
tvi; 0 h:).,top Abe issue's of such pensions, and correct
tto WElle1) ti
4 44ible Crwn or its ill ad.v
r times. The
isers—they might be
4tY Of 'g,rat,-had sanctioned in forme . .
kep a t"is linuse was to correct bad practices in public
Il'eCiu," r° econorois.s the revenues of the State. It
to
Ati,r,i,,tY,
.kil 11,,u-se to attend to the public good
w—to
etit Li, I,•'' I'Y evet y fair and equitable means, and,
hat the
Crown'ing to the right (Sr to the le!t, to see
4iiii'`, 'nli
its
respon:ible advisers should, upon allt of the
.1)c their duty, (Hear.) Such
was
the
du
y,asf notb
LeYot;d°l (.owns, and to discharge it properly
‘,1411,iu thole po, er. The Noble Lord had. staft'letdhetanda..t
,i'Thi "f
'''''''' iranit'l upon the responsibility o qiiiii; (j.
U"' Crown ' but what was the use—whai‘tlitnhi-e
'titer i,l'ilLit the affect of that responsibility ?
A it is
gr,nll,.'ifil. " grao s a pension—the I),'"Y,to whomsome one
elle,s. .'e,, I,ut the pension is transferred to
nothing—the
the
lir,'" for wllat ? The Minister tells no Pe,p):"; saY's },oiiii, and thus it has been that the
however, in
(11,atr,t`iv,e, }'orlon{'—and 1,:::—.,(1 with such a weight of taxation..
l'hieli ti' "oar. ) 'fills was not the way,
bf
~,,,,le puliiic ninney should be lavished--reward men
that
l'bOlc,i i'c"---reward men of literary attainments; l'"t I .je a l'iThle use of a rest nation's
Icriiitv:,lll.4 th
whatublic moue gfor some secret service (they
bounty huGt do
ud
LA hoof tort), anil Len tell the people that
wasd l'etl,leidi.4ilct° inquire fur what purpose their money.
.e
14,0101 to b '''' tile persons on the pension list did any tin
tt,,,,. tt. b" told ,
y , toes would not fail to tell it ; and whneg: goibe liesw°4l "r not, it was the duty of
'll(1110n ii,,ttlh'e 4'007 of the people was disposed of.
side
Wino......(fte--ethe House to i A
„ rtsent should not be got rid of by a
.t
teas Como.
„,-,) "4-) It was true that the pension Ls
they were '"VeIY Slll4ll ; but in this great country, where.
liot,s, „:de4ling with the millions and hundreds of mil,-
" legal
tigYhtt,l,l,iug else looked small; hut in talking of th •
Pensioner, 511 (1: the people, the ,' legal rights" of State
Pees i
on that i°,4-I\,ll "4 he included.—(Hear„) He re-
ti°4 of his h.:11"4'1, . Lord should have given the sane:
Pensions, hee'a-us rulaule and authority to the legality of
Ministers 01 toad e'srr44tedof the
upon theresponsibility
couterit himself with'' ; upon
he (Mr. Roebuck) must now
10 untenable and so'°l"ly etitering his protest againrs,
bear) An lloti. Aitax --constitutional a doctrine.---.(El_e . )
much re
‘, poll the present pc .
11Elt (ivhose name we did not distinctly
'tient , regrets to differ with his Majesty's Goyetm•
hove.leigr,"d, bliVe a conZlan.ver a nensinons granted by a
H sidered that this
"-, woott that Sove'reignwhoP:anctioned them was

no more; indeed, if it were not so, the functions of the
House of Commons would prove an insignificant safeguard
to the pockets of the eete,le. The people were now
groaning under the weight of poor rates; their little pia.
tance was taken from the humble in the shape of taxes ;
and it really was to,: moth to call upon them at this
season, or indeed at a•ty -t,.er time, to contribute to the
support of titled paupers, who e family connections
could otherwise very amply erovide for them. The
people were dissatisfied at such calls upon them—they
were justly dissatisfied—and he much feared that the
amendment of the Nolde Lord would not reconcile them
to a pension list—not bottomed upon the merits of the
individuals pensioned, but, in ma,v ',stance., for services
of a questionable nature. :dal support the original
motion.._( Hear.) -
Lord EBRINGTON was not actuated by any feelings
of sympathy with the motion of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Colchester (Mr. Harvey). With equal truth
could lie say that he did not sympathise with those per-
sons who were on the pension list. He saw much cause
for reprehension in granting many of the pensions. He
regretted that Ministers, in former times, had granted
pensions to unworthy persons, although he would not say i
for what purposes ; but admitting all this, he felt himself
compelled to vote for the amendment of his Noble Friend,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He (Lord Ebrington)
was perfectly aware of the great and general outcry
which prevailed with regard to the pension list—he
knew how much of obloquy and odium would be thrown
upon those Members who did not vote for the im-
mediate abolition of pensions ; but he confessed that
he did not wish hastily or unnecessarily to inter-
fere with the prerogative of the Crown, acting upon the
responsibility of confidential advisers. Having stated thus
much, he had now only to say that a sense of public duty
induced him to vote for the amendment of his Noble
Friend. In saying this, he begged it not to be under-
stood that he was shrinking from any engagement which
he made to the people—(Hear, hear)—in truth, be felt
some reluctance in addressing the House upon this subject
—not a reluctance in the honest discharge of a public
duty, hut a reluctance to trespass upon the attention of
the House, and that upon a subject of no inconsiderable
importance.—(Hear, hear.) Upon the discussion of the
,mount of the civil list he had folly stated his opinions,
and as that motion included the right of the Crown to
grant nen:ions to a limited extent for the future, he was
now unwiliint4 to say more. But since that period the
(et on now before the House had assumed a very dif.
ferent shape. The pensions as they now stood were
sanctioned by Ac's of Parliament, and whether good
or bad, the House bad sanctioned them. He trusted that
the resolutions of his Noble Friend would lead to useful
results, and that all future advisers of the Crown would
take care to dispose of the public money for the benefit of
meritorious individuals, and by so doing confer benefit
upon the State. He felt strongly that pensions granted
to individuals for their lives, and sanctioned by Act of
Parliament, should not be forfeited or done away with.
He also felt that if he voted for the motion of the Hon.
Member for Colchester, be should be doing away with
pensions which were legally granted ; and to that he
could not give his consent. In making these observations
he was only taking his share of the odium and obloquy
which would attach to his opposing the motion, but as a
public man he had a duty to discharge, and through good
or evil report he would never shrink from its performance.
Mr. HUME was quite surprised at the speech of the
Noble Lord—pledged as that Noble Lord was to every
system of economy by which the burdens of the people
could be diminished.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
(Althorp) bad fairly admitted that the public money should
be properly appropriated—to reward merit—to promote
science—to encourage and foster the arts—and that those
who fell into difficulty and distress from high stations,
without their own fault, should have an asylum from the
Royal bounty at the expense of the people. To the latter
proposition be (Mr. Hume) could by no means agree, for
it woul.l be taking tram the poor man his miserable pit-
tance, to give assistance to the rich, and the connexions of
the noble and the wealthy of the land.—(Hear.) He was
quite surprised to hear the Noble Lord venture to recom-
mend so large an inroad on the public purse as the con-
tinuance of the pension list would permit, and upon every
principle of justice, economy, and plain honest sense, the
present motion should have his warmest support. The
Noble Lord was altogether in error in supposing that it
was the intention of the motion to deprive individuals of
their just rights. It hod been observed by the Noble Lord
(Althotp), that he wished many of the parties never had
been on the list. What was to be concluded from that,
but that they had been improperly put there ? The
Honourable Member, fur Devonshire said that Minis-
ters wire no advocates for that which , was bad.
Would any legal technical sanction make good that
which was bad ? Then would the Noble Lord answer
in what way could that which he admitted to be improper
be right for the sanction of the House? The Noble Lord
had no answer to this, and he (Mr. H.) should be mu eh
surprised if he had. These pensions were never to be given
to any other than fit and deserving subjects. If some of
these pensions were imposed upon the people by had men,
who remunerated bad men for bad purposes, was it not
proper to expose those who were thus undeservedly fatten-
ing upon the public money? If it should turn out th,t
many of the items of the '75 000/. were disgraceful items,
would it be wrong to address his M ,jesty, upon a know-
ledge of those facts ? Presuming that his Majesty was
ignorant of the circumstance. would it not be Honourable
in the House sod in his Majesty's Ministers, lowing made
the inquiry, and found that many of the items were ob-
jectionable, to give his Majesty an opportunity of erasing
from the list the unworthy objects of charity, and
placing in it men more deserving ttf the public liberality
—men who had distinguished themselves by their literary
or scientific attainments ? Would not his Majesty he gr t-
tified that an inquiry had been made and thank the
House for the advice they gave him ? The people looked
open pensions as the result of meritorious services. Otte
Peer on the list had already received 46.0001. of the pub-
lic money, and lie should be glad to know whether the
public liberality could he by any means complained of as
directed to this Noble Lord? His Majesty's Ministers
were called upon out of regard to their own character, after
having given their sanction to such an odious list, to admit
inquiry, in order that they might make the amende ho-
nourable to the House and the country. If these were pen-
sions which ought to be removed, his Majesty's Ministers
ought to concur in removing them—if they Are fit to be
continued, let them recommend them to be continued.
The inquiry, let it be recollected, would not take ft oin
one man or woman one farthing--it would only ascertain
upon what principle the public money was given, and
upon what principle it ought to he expended. The public
voice never yet cried out against anything so unjust as this
list; it was an imposition upon public liberality—it was
the fruit of a long-continued system of corruption—and
such being the case, it became Parliament to make in
quiries—to purge the list of all its corruptions. This
would place some pensions, such as those of Rodney—a
name which did honour to any country—upon its proper
footing of meritorious services—instead of classing them
with pensions to " my Lord this," and " my Lady that"
—persons known to be appointed by the most corrupt
Government that ever existed in any country. Such
names ought to be removed from honourable society, nor
ought money to be expended on such unworthy objects.
Little did the House think of the manner in which these
pensions bore down the industry of the country. He had
taken the trouble to cdculate what this list had cost the
country since the present pensioners were in it. The
three first grants cost the country 590,8021. He should
be told at compound interest. Tue country bad been
paying compound interest, and the Ist itself exceeded
11,000,0001. sterling. If we could not find eleven worthy
objects in that list, was it not disgraceful in the House not
to take steps to ascertain whether the remainder of the
names were correct? He called upon every Hon. Member
who bad a respect for the honour of the House to agree
to the motion, whatever might be the resolutions of the
Noble Lord. Let us not be told that this resolution of
promising to do welt in future was to prevent all the mis-
chief. if any man wished to do his duty to his country,
let him vote for inquiry, let him purge the list of corrup-
tions, and then he (Mr. Hume) would be happy to juin
with bim in voting fur a continuance on the list of those
persons who could show the best claim, by literary, scien-
tific, or other services, to the gratitude of the country.
Mr. ROBINSON said that the amendment of the
Noble Lord consisted of a string of truism., which the
House might assent to as a prospective benefit, but which
had nothing to do with the merits of the question now
before it. Without putting the amendment upon the
journals of the House, there was sufficient security in the
House itself that the abuses complained of could not b
perpetuated. He would, therefore, tell the Noble Lord,
with great respect, that his amendment was of no value
whatever. The Noble Lord admitted two important
points, which he (Mr. R.) hoped the House would not
lose sight of, particularly as extraneous matter had been
introduced to draw off the attention of, the House from
the real object of inquiry. The Noble Lord had, in the
first place, admitted that, legally speaking, these pensions
had no existence after the death of the Sovereign in whose
reign they were granted; and he had admitted, in the
second place, that there were many names on the list
which ought never to have been heard of. He (Mr. R.)
rested his support of the motion upon these two proposi-
tions...first, that the Mouarcb, whose civil list was granted

during his life, had na right hi grant perpetual annuities;
and next that there were many persons undeserving of
them. Had the pensions all h!en deserved, we should have
heard no complaint either in or out of the House respect-
ing them. His view of the result of the Committee, if
granted, was, that the pension should be continued to
every person who could produce a reasonable *claim on
account of public services. Where the claim was of a
doubtful nature, hut where the parties bad been in the en-
joyment of the pension for a number of years, and, being
deprived of it would be deprived,of their means of sub-
sistence, then the House would not strike it off. Was
the list submitted to the House, in order that where there
was not the shadow of a claim to public munificence the
House would not take notice of it ? He did not consider
.he motion as any imputation upon the present Ministers.
rhey-stood quite clear ; but what be had a right to com-
elain of Ministers was, that they endeavoured to throw
'hetnselves between the House and the parties in order to"
prevent inquiry. He could not see the difference between
the acts of a Government which granted the pensions
nd the acts of Government willing to throw toe whole
-eeigtit of their power between the House an'l the parties
in order to prevent inquiry. He should be most sincerely
glad if the Noble Lord was left in a minority to-night.
tle, himself, could have no doubt whatever that this was a
it subject for Parliamentary inquiry. Without avowing
illy hostility to the Government, he should give his cordial
support to the present motion.
Mr. S. RICE observed that the Hon. Member .for
Middlesex had said that he sought no economy inconsistent
•vith honour. Neither did Ministers. If he (Mr. Rice)
could not make out a case against the Hon.Memberenot only
on the principle of law, but of justice, then he should be
satisfied with the alternative of the Hon. Gentleman who
spoke last, that he should be in the minority. A ques-
tion of this description was not to be discussed on the
ground of pecuniary saving. It was a matter of prin-
ciple, wh,ther it were a large sum or a small sum. A
discussion as to compound interest, though it did not pro-
duce any effect in the House, did produce a most enorm-
eus effect out• of doors. M•iny of the items in this list
were of very considerable antiquity. That fact being Ad-
mitted, and it being admitted that the person responsible
fur granting them was no more, how could it be contended
that the present Government was answerable for many of
those pensions ? The legitimate inference was, that, it
Government had come forward now, in a case which was
admitted to a certain extent to be unpopular, they were
not defending any interest of their own; but that if they
took the course they did, they took it solely and distinctly
from a sense of public duty. The Hon. Gentleman had
contrived, by his suggestions, to raise up every impu-
tation that it was possible for the mind of man to
imagine. He (Mr. S. Rice) should vote on the present
occasion as be had told his constituents he should
vote if the question came before the House. The
question was put to him at the hustings, " How would
you deal with the pension list?" His reply was—
" I do not defend the pension list, but if you ask
me how, in dealing with any abuse, I can best attain the
object I have in view of correcting it, I answer, that I
look back in a way which marshals the sympathy of man-
kind against you, and may become an impediment to
your proceedings." He told them that he felt confident
that those under whom he bad the honour to act would
propose no grant of money that they did not believe ne-
cessary for the public service ; but if they did so propose
he should vote against it,—that he was not prepared to
take away that which had been already conferred upon
individuals by the law of the land, because he thought it
would be unjust. Were not these pensions conferred by
the law of the land ? If they were, was net security given
by the law of the land.—(No, no.) They had the
fullest security that it was in the power of the Legislature
to grant. This list was in the hands of Members of the
House a long time prior to the settlement of the civil hat,
and the Consolidated Fund Act. Every Gentleman who
voted for the Civil List Act knew every one of these names
upon which observations had been made. Every Member
knew before these Acts passed every one objection that
could now be r.iised, and it was with the knowledge of
these objections that the civil list had been sanctioned by the
House. It was an open question till the law was passed.
(Hear, hear, hear.) It was not an open question when
the law was passed, and it was no louger an open
question unless, indeed, Honourable Members were pre-
pared to move, for not only the removal of the names, but
a censure on Government for passing the Act. He would
compare the proposed amount of the civil list with the
amount during the year of favourable comparison for the
Hon. Member for Middlesex—viz., 1792. The civil list
then was 208,9001. Upon the actu l receipt of present
pensions, as compared with the actual receipt of that day,
the saving was 40,1001., but time actual saving which was
to be accomplished by his Noble Friend's proposition
amounted, as compared with that which was admitted to
be a most economical year, to 133,9001. Even during
the present feign what had been the effect of the prin
ciples of his Noble Friend's measures? The benefit of
those measures bad been strikingly manifested within a
few years, for since November, 1830, there had been a sav-
ing of 12,0001. a year, and the contingent saving, as com-
pared with 1820, would be 138,000/. He believed
nobody objected to the amount of pensions fixed by the
tCoivbiel
wLii:ettAiecrt.theTibeeduocntily
Lshould
difference of
f
be made
at the risk of sacrificing existing interests, or whether it
opinioniru rn appeareded a tely,
was not more expedient, as well as more just, to wait
until the amount should be gradually reduced by the
course of nature? Now he would ask, what did gentle-
men propose to accomplish by going into this Committee,
except, indeed, an object which he would not suppose any
Member of that House to have in view, namely, the gra-
tification of an undue curiosity, and the prosecution of a
vexatious inquiry into the matters of private life?
He might be told that it was right the House should
go to the origin of these grants, and trace them back
to the responsible advisers of the Cro n ? But how
or by what means were they to attain this end ? Were
they to go into an examination of men's private affairs ? What
was to be the course of their inquiry, or how were they to con-
duct it ? He could not imagine any inquiry more disagreeable
and painful.—(Cries of " Hear," and laughter.) He did not
mean to those who were tobe the objects of it, although to them
also, no doubt it must be extremely painful; but he would put
it to those who might be candidates for the future chair how it
could be gratifying to their feelings to preside at such an in-
quisition. In no case was mention made of any consideration
for these grants, except the will and pleasure of the Crown.
But was not the principle this, that Parliament gave a certain
sum of money to be disposed of by the Crown ? And although
the Ministerial responsibility was the same for the advice given
to the Crown upon this as upon other questions of public policy,
still the principle of the votes was that they were to be acts
flowing from the Crown. The gentlemen opposite did not
seem to agree among themselves. The results of the arguments
of the Hon. Member for Middlesex would amount to this—
that, inasmuch as the list was divided according to the letters of
the alphabet, if his suggestions were acted upon, all those
names which began with letters following the letter H would be
subject to revision, while the others would be exempt. He
(Mr. Rice) contended that such a scrutiny ought not to be
applied to any, and therefore it was that he should resist the in-
quiry. It should be recollected that greater limitations had been
made by the House of Commons, in the Acts to which he had
referred, than in 1792, at the time of Mr. Burke's Acts, than
at the late King's accession, or, in short, than at any former
period. It was in the power of the House, at that time, to
have refused to give that civil list; but, having given it, he
would ask if they were, within two years, to revise what they
had so solemnly and deliberately done ? The Civil List Act
contained, in its preamble, an assurance to his Majesty that
his faithful Commons, with hearts full of duty and gratitude
' for his surrender of his hereditary revenues, derived from
droits of the Crown and other sources, were desirous to make
ample provisions for him by charges upon the consolidated
fund, and other Acts to be passed ; and that they would fur-
, nish a competent revenue for defraying the expenses of the
Government and supporting the honour and dignity of the
, Crown. Up to that period it was open to any Member to ob-
ject to the measures which were proposed; but Parliament
having sanctioned the arrangements that were then made, let
it not now, within two years, proceed to revise and annul
its own act. It had been said that the reformed Parliament
would forget its engagements. That insinuation was repelled,
and he trusted the vote of to-night would prove the truth of
the denial. The Hon. mover had referred to Mr. Burke, but
there was one sentence of that eminent man so applicable to
the present subject—so much more powerful than any thing
that he (Mr. Rice) could advance, which put the principle so
clearly, and enforced it so forcibly, that he would beg to call
the attention of the House to it. The passage which he was
about to quote was from Mr. Burke's speech upon economical
reform, and the point which he discussed was, whether it was
' expedient, in endeavouring to accomplish any given economi-
cal object, to proceed to immediate acts at the sacrifice of ex-
' isting interests, or whether it was not more wise, as well as
more just, to adopt a prospective principle, and to leave it
to time to carry the measures which were deemed desirable ?
Speaking of places in the State, which were analogous to pen-
sions, being frequently given as rewards for services, although
in some instances they were bestowed where no such claim ex-
isted, Mr. Burke said—
', Those places, and others of the same kind, that are held for
life, have been considered as property. They have been given
As a provision for children ; they have been the subject of family
settlements; they have been the security of creditors. What
the law respects shall be sacred to me. If the barriers of law
should be broken down upon ideas of convenience—even of pub-
lic convenience—we shall have no longer any thing certain
among us If the discretion of power is once let loose upon pro-
perty, we can be at no loss to determine whose piower and what
discretion it is that will prevail at last. It would be wise to at-
tend upon the order of things, and not to attempt to outrun the
slow but smooth and even course of nature. There are occa-
sions, I admit, of public necessity, so vast, so clear, so evident,
, that they supersede ail laws. Law, being only made for the
benefitatl h wohfi
e the
m aycommunity,comprehend h
can ntot
the total
a n
of h
any ittseparts
public interest.
resist
ear
edset-
n.

Fo be sure, no law can set itself up against the cause and reason
of all I w but such a case very rarely happens; and this most
certainly is not such a case. The mere time of the reform is by
no means worth the sacrifice of a principle of law. Individuals
pass like shadows, but the commonwealth is fixed and stable.
The difference, therefore, of today and tomorrow, which to
private people is immense, to the State is nothing. At Any rate
it is better, if possible, to reconcile our economy with our laws
than to set them at variance, a quarrel which, in the end, must
be destructive to both."

Was there any analogy between the cases—were these pensions
protected by law ?—(" No," from Sir S. Whalley.) What!
they were not protected by law? Now let the House see upon
what grounds it was about to vote. The Hon. Member for
Marylebone said the pensions were not protected by law. He,
as one of the constituents of the Hon. Member, should be glad
to ask his representative how they could be altered but by Act
of Parliament ? He had a great regard for the parish in which
be resided, and he must congratulate the new constituency
upon the success of their representative. The Hon. Member
said the pensions could be altered otherwise than by Act of Par-
liament. He should like to know how, without an Act of Par-
liament, except by repealing it, and how could it be repealed
except by another Act ? He said, therefore, that these pensions
were protected by law. There was not one of the grants

whichrwas not before Parliament when they were last made.
The House had, therefore, granted them with its eyes open.
It had deliberately passed two Acts, and now it was called upon
by the Hon. Member for Colchester to go into a fruitless and
painful, nay, he would say, a disgusting inquiry.—(Loud cries
of" Hear," and laughter from the Opposition side.) He would
repeat the word, and say that such an inquiry must be painful
to the good feelings of all mankind. Suppose, for instance,
that the inquiry related to military offices. The House was to
call .upon the parties to forfeit their rank, which they had a
legal right to enjoy, or to make out a case to show their right and
claim. That was a species of inquiry which he said would be
most painful and revolting. The distinction taken by his
Noble Friend was perfectly unattainable consistently with the
course pursued by Government. He participated in the regret
expressed by his Noble Friend that there were many persons oil
the pension list who, although originally they had rightfully
obtained their pensions, yet having risen to the possession of
superior wealth, still retained those pensions which they could
so well dispense with. But that was a matter of taste.—(A
laugh.) They had no right to force a man to do an act of ge-
nerosity against his will, although they would praise him if he
did so. But he held in his hand two instances of a different
nature from such as he had just alluded to. One of the persons
was a gentleman who had been much observed upon in the
public prints and in that House. He had received a letter
from that gentleman, which was almost of a private nature, but
as his name had been mentioned in the way of reproach, he
thought it but justice to him to mention a fact which redounded
highly to his honour. The gentleman of whom he spoke was Mr.
Charles Bathurst, and his letter was to the following effect:—
" Sydney-park, Gloucester. July 21, 1832.
My dear Sir,—There are,two pensions, together amounting
to 6001. a year clear, held by myself and my wife, under the sign
manual, which were granted by the late King in compensation
for my surrendering the patent office of Receiver-General of the
I)uchy of Lancaster, which my father, the Chancellor of that
tuchy, had conferred on me in 1819. In the altered situation in
which I am placed by his death, and succeeding to the property
which he possessed, I think it proper to abandon those pensions
as I should have done the office had it still subsisted in my
hands. As the portion of the pension which at my request was
conferred on my wife stands in the names of trustees, there may
be some difficulty in point of form about that portion,as to which
I will make inquiries ; but in substance it is the wish of both to
resign them from the present time, including the July quarter.
—Believe me very sincerely yours
"CHARLES BATHURST."
—(Cheers.) The way in which the other resignation had been
made was so. simple and handsome that it was due to the indi-
vidual to state it. If any pension were entitled to respect on
the score of the services of the individual in whose honour it was
granted, he was sure the pension to the brother of Sir John
Moore would be regarded in that light. He had had the
honour of r ving at the Treasury the following letter from
Mr. James Clarick Moore
" No. 1, Saville-street, Jan. 16, 1834.

" Sir—l do myself the honoui of addressing you, Co request
that you will inform the Right Hon. the Lords of the Treasury
that I resign the pension of 1,000/. a year, which was most gra-
ciously granted to me by his Majesty King George lII.—I have
the honour to be, Sir, your most obedient and most humble ser-
-
vant, "JAMES CARRICK MOORE.
" To the Hon. Thomas Spring Rice, &c."
-

(Cheers.)—In the Treasury, minute care had been taken to re-
cord not only the generosity of the sacrifice, but the great
merits for which the pension had been granted. He would say
that a forcible inquiry, such as was now suggested, would put
an end to such cases as these, or if resignations were made in
consequence of it, they would lose all their grace and beauty.
He thought that no case had been made out for inquiry, but
that the House had before it all that was necessary in his Noble
Friend's statement of the saving already made, and in the as.

surance now authoritatively given of the real principles upon
which that saving was to be augmented. Would gentlemen
deny the propriety of the Crown interposing its liberality, as it
had done, to succour a man, eminent for his scientific attain-
ments, who might indeed be called the Newton of his time,
and who, at the age of nearly eighty years, was obliged to toil
and labour as the usher at a school, and might have died in
want, if he had not received such aid ? The resolutions recog-
nised the power of such interposition, but limited the extent
to which it should be exercised by the Crown. Considering,

then, that an inquiry would be contrary to an existing compact, I
that it would lead to a fruitless inquiry, and that, without a for-
cible violation of existing rights, it could lead to no practical
results, he should oppose the motion.
Sir S. WHALLEY admitted the solemnity of the compact
between that House and the Crown, and acknowledged that
when the Crown gave up its hereditary revenues, the House
in return gave to the Crown the civil list as it was settled by
the Acts referred to. But this motion would not take from the
Crown the pension list which was at its disposal. It only called
for information as to how the 75,000/. had been disposed of by
the advice of the Ministers of the Crown. The pensions were
granted during the will and pleasure of the Crown, and, there-
fore, he said that they might, without any violation of com-
pact, be withdrawn at the will and pleasure of the Crown, on
the expression of the opinion of Parliament to that effect. He
called upon the House, as it respected the honour and dignity
of the Crown, to grant this motion. The Noble Lord had ad.
mated that the pension list had fallen into such bad odour, that
those whose names were upon it were looked upon with great
jealousy by the people. In what position, then, would the
House place all those parties, by granting this motion, but to
make them objects of dislike and disgrace, since the public could
notdistinguish between the pensions which were granted for
services rendered to the country, and those for which no such
services had been performed ? Let his Majesty's Ministers re-

member that this was the rock upon which the former Admi-
nistration had split. Although they might have a majority in
the House, they might be assured that out of doors their po.
pularity would be cut from under them, and they would de-
servedly fall in public estimation. Believing that no rights
would be violated by an inquiry, he should support the motion.

Sir ROBERT INGLIS regretted that the Noble Lord
(Lord Althorp) had not taken a higher ground of op-
position to this motion than that upon which his amendment
was founded. The House, he contended, had not merely made
a compact with the Crown, with respect to the civil list, but it
had gone the length of limiting its amount to one.third of what
had been previously at the disposal of the Crown, and it was
unfair, therefore, to hold the Crown responsible for the dis.
tribution of a sum thus limited. Those pensions might have
been granted as a relief to extreme personal distress, or as a
remuneration to eminent scientific men, or for any other
reason which might have been satisfactory to the Crown. The
Hon. Member for Colchester had said that if any case of urgent
personal distress could be made as a cause for the granting of
any one or more of these pensions, he was sure the House
of Commons would sanction such cases ; but, for his own
part, from all he remembered from the earliest times down
to the period when the French Chamber of Deputies refused to
sanction the pensions to the widows of the heroes of July,
he felt inclined to distrust the liberality of any public body.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) He felt confident that no Minister
whatever would have refused the pensions to the two
persons whose claims had been rejected by the French Chamber
of Deputies. If the proposition of the Hon. Member for Col-
chester should be adopted, the consequence would be that pen-
sions would be granted by the faction predominating one day,
and withheld by the faction of the day succeeding.—(Hear,
hear.) This function of the Crown of distributing the civil list
as it chose was coeval with the Monarchy itself, and he believed
it was a function which had never been exercised with so much
moderation and proper discrimination as at the present time.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that most of the cases in the pen-
sion list were cases of actual distress—a distress aggravated by
the publicity given to their names.—(Hear, hear.) Until very
recently, the distribution of pensions was the exclusive right
of the Crown. He thought it was quite sufficient that the
House had now brought the exercise of this right of the
Crown within the control of public opinion. Indeed he re-
gretted this, insomuch as it tended to trench upon the private
liberality of the Crown. If the pension list, as had been con-
tended, was as much a part of the public money as any other
portion, upon what principle, he would ask, had the civil list
been granted ? He should contend that it was a compact
between the Crown and the people, and, if so, that House had
no right to exercise such a control over its appropriation—a
control, moreover, which could never be exercised safely or
justly by a popular assembly. He thought that if the Noble
Lord had resisted the motion of the Hon. Member for Col•
chester by a direct negative, he would have received as large a
support as his amendment was now likely to receive, and
though he (Sir R. Inglis) should have been better pleased if he
had met the motion with a direct negative, yet, as the least of
the two evils, he should vote in favour of his amendment.
Lord MORPETH said it was a principle which could not be
denied that no pension should be granted except in return for
services to the public, or merits of an extraordinary nature.
When he applied this principle to the pension list before him,
he did not want the Hon. Member for Colchester to inform
him that there were many names in that list whose introduction
to it was the reverse of merit or of any sort of service to the
State.—(Hear, hear.) 'Why, then, was he about to refuse his
vote to the motion of the Hon. Member ? It was not because
of any allegiance he owed to the present Ministers, for it was
the case with him as he believed it was with them, that he bad
no sort of connexion, poiltical or private, with a single name
upon that list. Neither had he any feelings in their favour
but the abstract feelings of pity—the tragic emotion which
might affect him if they were to be turned into the streets to.
morrow. The question, however, was one of importance as to
the future. The House was bound by two Acts of Parliament,
which had granted a reduced amount of pensions to be at the
disposal of the Crown. Each ofthese pensions was considered by
the possessor as a grant for life, and, in truth, the weight of
odium rather attached itself to those who, by their careless-
ness and extravagance, sanctioned the abuses complained of,
than to the parties who received the benefit. As, however, it

was impossible to contemplate any recurrence of such abuses
in the present altered and improved state of the country, so, he
thought, a rigorous investigation into this part of the his-
tory of former times was unnecessary, particularly as there
could be no resumptions equivalent to the evils that would fol-
low it. If the question had been as to Whether a portion of tile
system should not have continued unabated in practice, then
would he say, make the inquiry. Ministers, however, had
taken the course which, as men of honour, they were bound to
take. They did not shrink from the unpopularity of standing
in front of those persons who were aimed at, and he should not
be acting the part of a man'of honour if he refused to add his
vote to theirs.

Mr. E. RUTHVEN objected to allowing the aristocracy of
the country to enjoy wealth and luxury at the expense of the
distressed working classes. On that ground alone he would
support the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Col-
chester. The pension list, he thought, was public property, and
as such he would deal with it. Some of the names on the list
referred to Ireland ; and the first he should name were placed
on the pension list in 1828-1829. Their names were Eliza,
Gertrude, and Mary Gossett. Th?S was not so very long ago;
and if these ladies had rendered any service to the country it
would be very easy to show it. There was 1201. to Eliza Gossett,
951. to Gertrude, and a pension also to Mary.--(a laugh.) Thus
in five years, from 1,3001. to 1,4001. had been given to these
Gossetts.—( Laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh at the name
of Gossett—(A laugh)—but it was rather strange that the Irish
Government should give away 1,4001. in this manner, although
they had objected to give 300/. for the survey of the port of
Dublin. Another name on the list was that of Sir IL Hunter.
He, it appeared, received a pension of 2881. in 1826 and 1827.
He believed that Sir R. Hunter was a very excellent profes-
sional man, as was also another gentleman on the list, both of
them having been physicians to the Lord Lieutenant, He
hoped these pensions were granted for public services; but
surely the people had a right to know what those services
were. Another name was that of George, Earl of Errol, who
received a pension of 2761. in 1819, and his Countess received
also a pension of 2761. in 1820 ; the public had therefore paid
to this Noble Lord and his Lady no less than 7,066/., but the
public had no knowledge of what services they had performed
to earn it. It appeared also that the Viscountess Allan had
received no less than 9,065/. 3s. 4d.—(Laughter.) It might
be very amusing to Hon. Members, but it was by no means
amusing to the poor people out of doors, who had to pay their
shillings towards the support of these noble pensioners.—
(Hear. hear.) There was a Mrs. Harriet Arbuthnot, also, who
had received 9,365/ He should like to know what value the
lady had given for this money:—(A laugh.)
Sir E. CODRINGTON should give his vote in favour of
the motion. If those pensions were honourably earned, they
ought to be as honourably paid, but the question was as to
whether they were honourably earned, He contended that
the pension list had not been made the reward of merit, because
the grossest partiality was exercised in its distribution, in
which it was not to pe denied that no classes were so badly
treated as those belonging to the navy. A man might serve
twenty years in the navy, and upon subsequently accepting a
civil office, he only began to count his time to be entitled to a
pension from the acceptance of such office, and no allowance
was made for the previous services of twenty years, although
they must have been of a more arduous description. He
should most cordially support the motion, in order that the
blame might attach itself to those who deserved it, and not to
all indiscriminately. One thing, also, was worthy of remark.
The largest pensions were given where the largest sums had
previously'been given for services. This was wrong in prin-
ciple, for surely it was easier for a man with a large salary to
save a retirement from it than for a man with a very limited
income—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. STANLEY said that the Hon. and Gallant Member
who had just spoken had not thrown much light upon the ques-
tion before the House—a question so short and so simple, that
lie felt he should best suit the convenience of the House by say.
ing as few words as possible upon it. He was surprised at hear.
ing the Hon. Member for Oxford take the ground he did—
namely, that of accusing the Government of yielding to popular
clamour. If there was any one question upon which a temp-
tation existed to give way to popular clamour and to strong
feeling, if not restrained by an imperative sense of justice and
duty, the question then before the House was the one upon
which Government might have established for itself a popula-
rity and a momentary applause, by adopting a course the re.
verse ofthat which his Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) was then
pursuing.--(Hear, hear.) He dissented from the Hon. Mem-
ber when he was on that (the Opposition) side of the House,
and he dissented from him still, on the doctrine that the House
should have no control over grants of pensions by the Crown.
In 1828 he, in company with his Noble Friend (Lord Althorp),
formed part of a small minority upon a motion similar to the
present, brought forward by the Hon. Member for Middlesex.
He voted upon that occasion on the grounds stated by the Hon.
Member for Middlesex—namely, that the grossest abuses
and the grossest corruption were so interwoven with the
pension list, that it was necessary to have the interference
of the House in order to chick it. He did not shrink
from the responsibility of his vote on that occasion, nor did
he shrink from advising the Crown how to act on the pre-
sent. His Honourable Friend behind him had placed the
subject on different grounds altogether. His Hon. Friend
wished for inquiry, not with the view of condemning all the
pensions, but with the view of ascertaining the justice of the
grounds upon which they were granted ; but he (Mr. Stanley)
was opposed to the motion, not because he was prepared to de-
fend the grounds upon which they were granted, but because,
in common justice to all the parties, and out of respect to the
compact of that House with the Crown, he thought that every
feeling of honour and justice debarred them from entering
on this inquiry.—(Hear, hear.) He should indesd regret to be
compelled to defend the pension list before the House.—(Hear,
hear.) He believed it contained many items which could not
be defended—he believed it contained items which it would
puzzle any man to conceive what defence could be offered for
them—(Cheers)—but then it was to be recollected that they
were granted upon the faith of the Crown during the life of the
late King, and were continued during the life of the present
King by Act of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) Now, therefore,
the parties who enjoyed these pensions had a legal claim, which
could not be flung aside without violating an Act of Parlia-
ment. They had a power, an authority, a right, which could
not be overturned without at the same time establishing a pre-
cedent pregnant with danger to the rights of property in gene-
ral.—(Hear, hear.) An Hon. Member observed that this
was a new Act of Parliament, and might be repealed. Were
they then to set aside the decision of former Governments,
sanctioned as they were by Parliament ? Was that the way
in which the reform, d Parliament would deal out its justice, by
setting aside the decisions of those wielding for the time the
authority of Government, and sanctioned by the three estates
of the realm ?—( Hear, hear.) If such was to be their mode
of dealing, no decision whatever could be any longer binding,
than while the prevailing party of the day might think proper.
From the humblest individuals who might be concerned in a
turnpike.road Bill, up to the most important parties to a treaty
concerning the nations of Europe, the principle was the same.
It was alike important in all cases, that that which was sanc-
tioned by the faith of Parliament should not be set aside with-
out the consent of the parties interested.— (Cheers.) If this
inquiry were to be granted, lie would ask if they might not
next look back to the ancient titles to property throughout the
country ? Might they not inquire as to whether they were
not first acquired by fraud or by injustice, by violence, by con-
fiscation, by wrong, or by robbery ?—(Cheers.) Surely, how-
ever, if the present possessors were sanctioned by law, Par-
liament would not venture to set aside their titles on account
of the viciousness of their origin.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If
they could thus overturn the acts of their predecessors, no
engagements with foreign nations could be considered as
sacred. Once do this, and the rights of property would be
trampled upon, and that House would no longer have any
claims to be considered as a consistent body, but would fluc-
tuate from day to day in its acts, according to the changes
of opinion amongst the people. Upon this high ground,
and not because of the abuses of the pensioa list, did
he resist the motion. It was not because that many improper
names had crept into the pension list that he supported the
amendment, but because it would be an extremely dangerous
precedent to overturn arrangements made under tho sanction of
compacts entered into between Parliament and the Crown.—
(Cheers.) The amount of the civil list, and the fund at the Crown's
disposal, was, in a precedent period of our history, 976,0001. of
which, in strictness, 510,0001. was entirely subject to the dis.
posal of the then King on the throne, 466,0001. being considered
to be directly under the control of the House He should like to
see how large an amount out of the latter sum of 466,0001. had
been reduced in late years. The whole of the charge of the
Irish Government, together with the miscellaneous estimates,
were then made on this fund, which had since been reduced to
that amount. Under the late Government the pension list had
been as high as 165,000/, which it was considered advisable by
that Government to reduce to 144,000/. His Noble Friend had
to-night stated it was his opinion the civil list should not exceed
the sum of 75,000/. annually, but that the safest way to effect this
desirable reduction would be by attempting to reduce it to this
amount gradually. There had been a proposal made, that hay.
ing so disposed of the pension list as to the extent of 75,0001.,
the older lives, as they fell out, should be filled at the pleasure
of his Majesty, whilst as the remaining pensions fell in, they
should accrue to the benefit of the public. It was absurd to
suppose that the Government would subscribe to the plan of
reduction regulated by the alphabetical arrangement. Could
they be mad enough to sanction a plan by which the title of on:
man to his pension was not to be canvassed because his name
began with the letter B, whilst that of the man whose name
began with I` was to be open to revision and inquiry ? It had
been said by the Hon. Member this was an open inquiry. Now,
upon this part of the subject, he would observe, that when this
subject was before the House last, it was suggested that it was
then too far advanced in the session to fix the civil list for anti
during the life of his present Majesty, and therefore his Noble
Friend had contented himself with taking a vote of the House
for a sum equal to the civil list as it stood, open, however, to
such alteration as the House should afterwards adopt in the
exercise of a sound determination, But when the House had
once passed the Commutation Act, then it would no longer be
considered an open question ; although he would not say that
they were not at liberty to inquire whether the pension of this
or that man on the list was or was not corruptly or improperly
granted In the Committee on the civil list the principle had
been decided, and it had been laid down as settled, that those
who were on the civil list were not entitled to consider they
had a direct interest in the continuation of pensions that were
founded upon and granted under such objectiorkahle eircuM-

stances. In other words that such persona were not to infer
that, on the demise of the Crown, their interest would inure
to the continuation of the abuses. They, in coming to this
d.cision, adopted a wise course. He sought not for topics 05
scandal; they raked not in the mire of forgotten slander they

did not compel the aged or the weak to some forward and die.
ploy afresh the helplessness or the sufferings on which they
founded them both to theßoyal bounty or munificence.--( H ear,
hear.) They did nothing of this kind, but they contented
themselves with pursuing a course less popular, perhaps, but
far more useful; and wisely laying down a principle which
should practically operate to restrain the improper exercise of
the Royal bounty in future. They had been followed in this
track by the present Government, who considered that it of-
fered a safe ground of improvement. They claimed, therefore,
from their successors the credit of having, in this respect, ex-
ercised a wise discretion, and such as was perfectly consistent
with the duty of a constitutional Ministry. He hoped no Geo.
demon, then, would for a moment indulge in the expression
of sentiments for the sake of attaining popularity out of doors,
w'iich he could not justify on a principle of honour, and sup-
port as the result of his own personal conviction. The great
body of society and of the people of this country, he believed,
were sound in principle, although desirous of economy. They
would not, ha was persuaded, buy even economy by injustice
or oppression. Either there or on the hustings they might
boldly appeal for their justification to the principle which they
had established as to the future regulation of the pension list;
thatprinciple was practical, and might be acted on hereafter
safely and securely. He called on the Members of that House,
upon the grounds of justice to individuals concerned, and in
consistent support of the pledge of Parliament, to adopt a course
which was founded on the safer policy. He felt that a con-
trary line of conduct as to the right of the Crown could not be
pursued, because it was fraught with dishonour ; and whatever
temptations there might be to others to do so he would not
support it, because he felt he could not do it conscientiously.
. .

Mr. O'CONNELL observed that the Right Hon. Gentleman,
although he had proposed to state the question which was really
before the House, had altogether forgotten or avoided stating
what the real question was which they were called upon to
decide. They were not to determine to-night whether this or
that pension on the list were to be discontinued, but whether
they were to go into an inquiry on the subject? The Right
Hon. Member for Cambridge had denounced the inquiry as dis-
gusting. If the items of complaint were so very disgusting,
was not that a reason why the inquiry should no longer be de-
layed ? If they were deterred from the inquiry by such argu-
ments, then he would tell them they were not a reformed Par..
liament. As to the supposed title of these parties to their pen-
sions, he would tell the House that the possession of anything
improperly obtained conferred no title at all. It was said the
Act of Parliament was a bar in this case to inquiry, as the right
of the Crown was thereby settled, and the King had 75,0001. a
year to distribute in pensions to whom he liked; and who should
control him ? He would ask if it were discovered that this sum
had in fact been applied to corrupt a Member of Parliament
would there be no remedy ? or would not the adviser of the
Crown in that instance be liable to be called to a strict and se-
vere account? It was clear he might, even though the pen-
sion was within the stipulated 75,0001. a year, but every penny
improperly granted beyond that 75,0001. was a gross, manifest
and unblushing robbery. Every improper name struck out of
the list gave to the Sovereign additional dominion. In 1828 it
would be recollected a similar motion had been made, and very
strongly supported in that House (Mr. S. Rice said " Only for
names.") Oh, did the Hon. Gentleman suppose it was a mere
idle curiosity to know the names ? No such thing. Nine-tenths
of those now on the list were there then, and yet the House
voted for inquiry. Would not a reformed House do so too ?
If so, let them imagine what would be the possible results. He
found that already a reformed Parliament had sufficiently fallen
in its character and in the public estimation. One only chance
of redeeming themselves remained, and that was rigid retrench-
ment of expense and careful watching over the public purse.
He gave great credit to the sincerity of the Right Hon. Barn..
net's intentions as to retrenchments in the naval department,
over which he presided. He, however, felt this was not a time
for England to have fewer sailors; he wished she had more.
I But in his retrenchments he seemed to have, by diminishing
the number of clerks and labourers of all classes, sheared so
close as to cut the skin and flesh. As for the Irish pension
list, it was a public disgrace—there was not one of them given
for public services, except to Lord Rodney's daughters. He
was sickened at hearing appeals to honour made in favour of
those who had rendered no service to their country, but only
cajoled and flattered ; nor was he less disgusted when he was
assailed with the cry of " There is law for it I" The Right
Hon. Gentleman said we had the certainty of a reduction or the
pension list secured at last. The Right Hon. Gentleman met
with cause for perfect satisfaction in the paulo post futurent.
It was true Mr. Edmund Burke had, in respect for such reforms
as these, said that the lives of individuals were to be calcu-
lated by hours and minutes, whilst those of nations were to be
calculated by eternity. In order, however, to see what we had
in prospect even, it was necessary the inquiry should be en-
tered upon ; and, in the name of his constituents, he called
upon all consistent reformers to institute that inquiry forth-
with.—(Cheers.)Sir R. PEEL said though bound upon principle to resist
the motion, he was far from feeling inclined to cause the In-
quiry to be instituted, because of the charges which bad been
levelled at the late Government with respect to the pension
list. He was satisfied that the result would be that the conduct of
the late Government would be totally exculpated. He be:ieved
the motive of the present Government was good in the conduct
it had pursued relative to the pension list; but he could not
hear with indifference, or without appealing tp the members of
the late Government or their friends in their justification,
when they were thus charged with what they denominated ini.
quities. He would not vote for this inquiry in order to con-
trol the bounty or the Crown, with a view to please those
whose object appeared to be popularity out of doors by any and
all means. If the inquiry, however, were minutely made, and
the examination ever so strict, he sincerely believed it could
never be made out that the bounty of the Crown had been ex-
pended in order to effect corruption within those walls. He
would not go into each case, but he would say that in the whole
pension list there did not occur five cases of pensions given to
create parliamentary interest. There were many cases
of persons who had a high rank to maintain without having
adequate means, who had been pensioned, and were on
this list. There were others. There were cases which
were upon the list of pensions granted for public service&
to persons who had all along been in opposition to Government.

--(Hear, hear.) Some instances there doubtless were of per-
sons pensioned lavishly and beyond their services. If the
House thought fit, let it lay down a new rule, and a juster in
future; but it would be derogatory to the faith of Parliament
to deprive them altogether of a pension voted them upon the
ground of public services. He regretted the indecorous levity
with which names had been quoted from that list to-night, but
he thought he would mention some names even from the
Irish pension list, which were strongly warranted with claims
on the Royal bounty and the public gratitude. He would in-
stance Eliza and Mary Gosson, as persons connected with an
eminently useful public official person in the Irish Govern-
ment —(Hear, hear.) There were seven names of Irish ladies,
all sisters, to whom were given 881. a year each. These
were the daughters of one of the most upright, efficient, and.
economic servants of the public, in the person of Capt. Hard_
tiAd, commissary:in-chief in Ireland, whom he had ever known.
He had purchased by his services some remuneration from Go..
vernment, and as he wanted nothing for himself, and had, in
old age, seven daughters, he (Sir R. Peel) instead of applying to
the country or the House applied to have these females put on
the Royal bounty, at the yearly pension of 881. each. In the
cases of respectable families, fallen into distress, he felt
there was no occasion to institute inquiries how or why the
Royal bounty was exercised in reference to such individuals.

Mr. Burke held it was no disgrace or disparagement, in such
cases, to be relieved. It would be indecent and disrespectful
to Monarchy to show such an overwhelming jealousy of its
liberality and kind consideration. If the case could be made
out of a pension given with a corrupt object, then the Minister
giving it, he felt convinced, should be answerable, and be
bound on his responsibility. The vote of 1792 had controlled
the exercise of the Royal hounty, until the pensions were be-
low 95,0001. Until then, the names of the persons on the list
were to be laid before Parliament, within thirty days of its
first sitting in each session. When reduced beneath that sum;
th 3 Royal bounty was not to be fettered by restriction. De.,
pending on the good faith of persons in high and rf!':;ponsible
situations as advisers of the Crown, he would rtbt adopt a con.
duct which so obviously seemed to imply an unjust suspicion
of the Crown in the exercise of its just prerogative; and he
should, therefore, join the Government in discountenancing
and resisting the present motion.

Mr, KENNEDY rose to give the motion his zealous support.
The }kn. Member, in the course of very general interruption,
was understood to say that Ministers were placed in a strange
position when they were opposed by their old friends and sup-
ported by their old opponents.
Mr. HALCOMB rose, amidst loud cries of" Oh oh !" and
said he entirely concurred in all that had fallen from the
Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies, and totally dissented
from every thing contained in the speech of the Hon. Member
for Colchester.
Mr. HARDY stood forward on this occasion as the advocate
of honour and justice towards persons whose interests were
deeply involved in the result of the present question. It would
seem, according to certain arguments which he had heard
urged, that there was something so foul and disgusting in tiffs
question, that it was not to be approached. He, however, now,
came forward, on the part of the individuals concerned, to de-
mand the fullest inquiry.—(Hear, hear.) It was on these,
grounds he thought that the House was bound to, pursue the
course it had adopted on a former night, when inquiry was
granted, in consequence of an imputation having been cast upon
a number of Hon. Members from the sister country.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY observed, in reply, that the long and
interesting discussion iu which they had been engaged had given
rise, as might have been expected, to a variety of suggestions,
some bearing fairly and fully upon the subject, some glancing
lightly and partially upon it, and some not approaching it at all.
--(Hear, and a laugh.) The Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Cambridge, indeed, had reduced his opposition to the motion to
a shape perfectly simple and intelligible. H (Mr. Rice) told
them fairly that whatever oklections they might have entek-
tabled against this list from prejudice, or whatever errors or
uffences they might have detected in it by inquiry, yet were
their lips closed by acts of their own. The Hon. Secretary ap.
pealed to two Acts of Parliament as au estoppal to all efsbrt
upon their part, and declared to them that however baseless and
disgusting any or all of these pensions might be, however de-
grading to the characters of those who might receive, and how-
ever insulting to the feelings of those who were compelled to
pay them, yet that because that list had received the sanction
of an unreformed Parliament, it was conclusive, notwid hstand-
mg that they, the representatives of a refoimed c nstituency,
were sent to that House mainly to correct evils of this uescr.p-
iio:,.—(Hear, hear.) He denied that the House stood in
tins I.osition.—(Hear, hear.) He reminded them that these
'Acts had been passed at a retied when the friends of tilt