The Sun.
London, England, 1856-06-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVLoh G, JUNE 6, 1856,

be very detrimental to the efficiency of our army if it
were deprived of the services of such men by the esta-
blishment of a standard of educational qualifications to
which they were unequal. The plan established by
the Duke of Wellington in reference to the examina-
tion at Sandhurst had been upon the whole success-
ful, as affording a security that those who were ap-
pointed 'to commissions in the first instance were men
of education, but he saw no objection to the recom-
mendation of Lis right bon. friend that sixteen
should be the earliest age at which youths should be
admitted to that institution, that admission should be by
examination on the principle of free competition, and that
a second examination should be required before the cam-
.lion was granted. The standard of non-military edu-
cation required for the line was not high, but in the en-
gineers and artillery a higher qualification was demanded,
and the plan adopted by his noble friend for securing it,
by throwing open the commissions to public competition
when the war broke out, and the necessity for adding to
the number of officers in those services arose, instead of
calling in the services of young men frsme the military
colleges before they were sufficiently educated, had an-
swered well and given the greatest satisfaction. He was
not, however, disposed ti say that because that system
had :succeeded, therefore the high standard of non-mili-
tary education in those branches of the service should
be extended to the others without further experience.
He had doubts whether those advantages which his
right friend anticipated would result from the
establishment of a system of instruction for officers
after their appointment to the first commission to
qualify them to pass a second examination previous to
promotion. On the part of the Government, however,
he promised that the fullest consideration should be
giece to the right hon, gentleman's sche:ne, but he ob•
issued to their being called upon to coma to any precipi-
tate decision. The new brigade and divisional organisa-
tion of the army to which his right hon. friend had rte-
ferred, would create a number of new staff appointments,
would afford the means of bringing forward officers of
ability, and qualifying othee3 to fill staff duties. Hitherto,
in consequence of the army being broken up into regi-
ments and detachments, the junior officers had no oppor-
tunity of showing their ability to fill the higher branches
of the service, while the senior officers had been deprived
of the means of making themselves acquainted with the
merits of their juniors. This evil new organisation would
remedy. Again, he believed that great good would re-
%mit from the formation of the camps at Aldershott and
elsewhere, for exercise, whereby an advantage would
be ex- corded to Vie whole of the army which had
been hitherto confined to the garrison of Dublin. In
cenclusion he reminded the house that a commission had

whose plan he thought deserved the gratitude of the army
and the country.
Mr. RICH tendered his thanks to the right hon. gentle-
man for the admirable manner in which he had brought
forward this subject and pressed it on the Government.
The right hou. gentleman had established the anomalous
manner in which commissions, promotions, and staff ap-
pointments were obtained. He was glad the Under-Secre-
tary for War had admitted the success of the competitive
system in the artillery and engineers, and the inference
was that it would be as succes ;cal with the rest of the army.
That system would supply that which was wanting in our
army—motive and professional feeling. The hon. gentle-.
man then urged that, besides capability, service, especially
iu the colonies, should bo considered with reference to pro-
motion. Admirable and efficient as the Guards were, yet,
by the peculiar constitution, their officers obtained promo-
tion more quickly than the rest of the army, while they
never saw foreign service except in case of European war ;
they never were engaged in Indian, Kaffir, or Australian
warfare, and therefore they had not so many opportunities
of learning their duty in times of European peace. Never-
theless, it was from that body that so many general offi-
cers wore drawn. Ho thought that the staff ought to have
peculiar qualifications, and there ought to be stringent re-
gulations laid down, the conditions of which all officers
ought to fulfil before they were appointed to the staff. The
only way in which the patronage of the army should be dis-
pensed should be through the War-office by means of com-
petition. With regard to the military college the hon.
and gallant general had spoken ( f it as self-supporting ;
but it was self-supporting by forming one set of students to
support the others. The Government chose to say that
the orphans of military officers should receive a gratuitous
education at the military. college • but they paid nothing
towards it ; while the sons of other persons were charged
150 guineas a year for the education of their eons, while
90 guineas a year would be amply sufficient. That was a
matter which ought to be considered, for it was not just
that the parents of the general students should be made to
pay more than the legitimate expenses of their sons' educa-
tio . _

Lord HOT HAM said that' the hon. gentleman had
treated more of the subject of a motion he had brought for-
ward two or throe times than of that which the right hon:
gentleman had brought forward. The right hon. gentle-
man had evidently paid great attention to this subject,
and had acquired a right to press it upon the Government.
He (Lord Hotham) did not think that the Under-Secre-
tary for War was to blame for not having given a more
decided answer on this question, for not only were many
of the points ho had to reply to put newly before him, but
he was only the representative of the "War-office, and could
not answer fully for the War Minister, far less for the Go-
vernment, with whom the decision of the matter must lie.
The hon. member (Mr. Rich) had spoken of the want of
experience of officers of the army, and had spoken of the
experience which was to be obtained in colonial service.
The hou. gentleman should have said in certain colonies,
for iu some colonies, the 'West Indies, for instance, regi-
ments were broken up, and the experience obtained by
officers was not of the most desirable kind. The hon. gen-
tleman might have spoken of the want of opportunity for
gaining experience by officers in this country also ; for ho
(Lord Hotham) had known an instance of a regiment of
cavalry being stationed in Ireland for two years without a
riding-school, and yet they would have been expected to
have been fit for service. The noble lord then proceeded
to defend the Guards against the strictures of Mr. Rich,
urging that the recent regulations had prevented any pos-
sibility of undue promotion in that corps, and also that,
although the Guards were not liable to foreign and colo-
nial service, they always formed part of every expedition
which left thin country in active service, and they had
always so performed their duty as to receive the approba-
tion of a very general order where they served; and he par-
ticularly instanced the tributes paid to the gal-
lantry, discipline, and general good service of the
Gnarus, by the Duke of Wellington during the
Peninsular war; he, therefore, was justified in saying
that although 'they learnt their duty in England, the
Guards had never shown any deficiency iu every quality
that constituted soldiers. He had on all previous occa-
sions, when the Guards had been attacked in that house,
although ha had always belonged t them, refrained from
saying a word, leaving their defence to ther gentlemen,
but on this occasion he felt it to be his duty not to allow
the observations of the lion. gentleman to pass without an
answer.
Lord GODERICH said ha hoped some member of the
Government would give to them more particular informa-
tion as to the intentions of Government than had been
given to them by the Under Secretary for War. The hon.
gentleman had, in fact, given them no information, but
hail merely given them his own opinion on the subject,
which appeared to be unfavourab'e to the propositions of
I the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Sidney Herbert) ; but he
nevertheless distinctly stated that he did not intend to be
hauled by any opinion he might then express. The noble
lord opposite said he did not blame the hou gentleman be-
cause he could not be aware of what would be the nature
of the right lion, gentlemen's speech ' • but the right hon.
gentleman gave notice some time ago that he would bring
this question :before the house, and he postponed it in
consequence of the illness of the Secretary for War, and
the details of his proposition had been long known, and
had been published in the report of the committee. It was
of great importance that they should elicit from her Ma-
jesty's Governmout an expression of their opinion on the
general questiou. They had just passed from a state of
war into a state of peace. Public attention had been di-
rected to everything that concerned our military establish-
ment and organisation.. It would be difficult on any fu-
ture occasion to obtain the same amount of interest on
the subject. This, therefore, was the moment at which
changes and reforms in this branch of the service might be
advantageously made. In military organisation we were
behind all nations who hail what we might call a civilised
army, still whatever might be the undoubted great quali-
ties of British officers, surely it was of consequence to this
country, which had but a small army, that we should take
the best moans in our power to make that army as efficient
as possible.
Lord PALMERSTON said he concurred with the hon.
members in expressing his thanks to his right hon. friend
who lid brought this subject before the consideration of
the house, for the able and clear manoer in which he bad
stated his view. Indeed there was nobody who, from his
intimate knowledge of all the matters to which his speech
related, both from his natural ability, the clearness of his
conception, and the facility of his manner in developing
his ideas, was bettor qualified and more entitled to bring
a matter of such interest ',afore the house. When gentle-
men wishe 1 Government to state its particular intentions
on a subject like this, he was afraid he should not be able
to meet their expectetioes. Governmenteentirely concurred
in estimating the high importance of giving to officers of
the array the best p education adapted to their pro-
fessional pursuits. He did to' agree with his noble friend
who had just sptLen, in this k ug that the British army
was behind any other army in the world in anything.
When they lookel at the exploits of the British army he
was bound to say there was no occasion in which, under
any circumstances whatever, it had not proved itself equal,
anal he might say superior, to those against whom it had
to contend. At the same time,ho did net mean to say
that the Cyst en of education for the officers of , the army
was not e suable of great improvement, and it would be the
anxious e ire, as ir, was the bounden duty, of Govern-
ment to devote their beet attention to this matter, for the
purpose of making swe'n arrangements as might appear to
those best calculated to attain the object in view. He was
sure his right hoe. friend would not expect that he should
on the present occasion follow him through the various de-
tails of his speech. His suggestions would receive the best
attention and consideration of the Government. In this
matter there were two things to bo kept in view. Some
persons contended that there should boa literary qualifica-
tion as a proiiininaey proof of capacity. Well, that might
be tarried too far ; but to a certain extent literary attain-
ments should be required. It would be we Ilthat officers
who entered the army should have literary attainments,
although it was perfectly true, as was alluded toby his
right hon. friend, that -literary attainments were not al-
ways combined with those constitutional qualities which
were requisite. To some extent, however, literary attain-
ments were requisite, but he thought that the future course
of instruction should be more devoted to professional ac-
quirements—for instance, mathematical knowledge. But
to require the sort and extent of mathematical knowledge
which was attained by a wraugler at Cambridge was a
waste of time, and would not at all render the young man
who attained it fitter for the profession of which he was to
become a member. The main qualifications fur an officer
were, first of ,ell, contempt of danger, a quick eye to esti-
mate the danger of surrounding circumstances, a rapid de-
ci don to act in emergencies, and resolution to carry out
his judgment. Those were the qualifications that were most
important for an officer, and might be found in a:man de-
ficient in literary attainments. What was wanted was a
combination of the two. There was no doubt that these
constitutional qualities could not he ascertained exactly by
an examination. The Mike of Wellington used to carry
with hilts a pack of hounds, and when he wished to judge
of the merits of a young officer, he could form a sort of
judgment by the quickness of his eye, and the means he
resorted to in capturing the game. However, there was
no examination they could institute which could afford
them a dechiive test of these qualifications, and they must
take their chance, Ad they could do was to give the offi-
cers that scientific knowledge which was essentialdo their
professional pursuits, and to the good conduct of the
troops might be placed under their command,' and
by exarninteion to ascertain whether they had profited by
their instructions..lt was said that it was not fair to make
the military college. a self-supporting institution, and to
m tike one pat t of the students pay for the education of the
other. Bet ho was bound to say that whatever injustice
there might be iu that it was forced upon the Government
by repeated discussions in that house. Year after year
the late hon. member for Montrose urged the abolition of
the military college -as a matter of expense to the public,
and it was in• deference to the house that at last the mi-
litary coil age was so arranged that it should not be an
expense to the public. He hoped that the experience of
late years hail opened the eyes of Parliament to the great
importance of these matters, and that members would not
only now but in future sessions bear in mind of what in.l-
D3e1:183 importance it was to have a good and efficietnhtoasermbye.
Ho quite agreed with those who thought it was far less
important what the numbers should be then what .the
oritunisetion should be, and the instruction given to the
officers. He trusted the house would excuse him if he did
not go into further detail. He assured them that the
Government were as fully impressed as any of
hail the honour to address with the great importance i f
making their army as efficient as possible. During the
war their labours were devoted entirely to the efficient
conduct of the war, and this matter did not receive the
attention which it ueserved ; but now that peace was for-
tunately restored, it would be the anxious desire of Ge-
vernment to conic to some satisfactory decision on the
arrangements necessary to accomplish the purpose.
Mr. G. MOORE asked the Secretary for Ireland to ex-
plain a statement he had made to-night respecting the
Irish TenantS Compensation Bill, and his having said that
if the member for Northampton would move that the bill
be committed that day six months' Government would
support him.
Mr. HORS MAN said he would state the circumstances
under which the hon. gentleman had charge of the bill.
On the 29th of January there was a great tneetiug, of the
Tenant League in Dublin, in order, to consider the bill
which was to be brought forward this session. But when
the day arrived there was no bill prepared.
Mr. G. MOORE observed that that was a mistake.
MreHOlt SMAN then proceeded to read a report from a
newspaper of the proceedings of the meeting in question,
to the effect that the "energetic action" of the league had
been 4 ppcd by their being in debt to the tune of fie,
which difficulty, however, had been got over, by six of the
prominent members of the league becoming surety for the
amount. The "energetic action" being thus restored,
another ditliaulty arose from want of members, and the
council had not been able to carry into effect the instruc-
tions issued at the last general meeting to have a bill pro-
pared by a competent lawyer (they could net, the right
hon. gentleman remarked, pay the foe), and it was deter-
mined, therefore, to fall back on Mr. iharman Crawford's
bill, and the member for Mayo and the member for Dun-
garvon were requested to undertake the carriage of it.
The SPEAKER here observed t i right hon. gen.

been appointed some time ago to make inquiries as to
the military systems of France, Prussia, Switzerland,
Turin, and other continental states, with the view to the
improvement of the scientific departments of our own
army. That commission, he uLderstood, would in a few
days make their report, and it would be no more than
fair that the Government should have the opportunity
of considering that report and the recommendations
ma le by the commissioners before they were called upon
to commit neinselves to his right hon. friend's plan: It
was their intention to give their best attention to this
important question of military education, and he trusted
they would succeed in maturing a system which should
ensure the efficiency of the army. ([fear.)

Me. E. ELLICE thanked his right hon. friend for
bringing the subject under the notice of the house.
Tnough he did not expect that the Goverament would at
once commit themselves to the plan propounded. he did
not concur in the objections of his hon. friend (Mr. Peel)
as to the proposed system of inspection, or to the re-
quirement of an examination as a preliminary to promo-
tion. In the navy there was a strict examination but
it was not found to exclude men of energy and hardihood,
as the bon, gentleman appeared to think it would do in
the case of the army. He concurred with his right hon.
friend that the money expended by the State in the ele-
mentary education of youth intended for the army wag
thrown away. It would be better, both for the young
men and the service, that the elementary education
should be obtained not merely in the private schools of
this country, but in the educational establishments of the
continent, and that the appointments should be thrown
open to public competition. For the scientific branches
of the army and for the staff bethought the public ought
to provine the means of education, but the necessary
qualification being proved, he would like to see the pa-
tronage of the army so dispensed that none but such as
were so qualified should receive appointments. A com-
mittee which sat 24 years ago, had recommended
that .no staff appointment should be held by the
feline officer for a.longer period than 5 years, and that
receitunendation had been repeated by a committee
which sat in 1854; but no attention had been paid to it ;
:tr. 1 when the members of the committee attempted to
eecorce their recommendation, in the hong., they were
met and oppc/3ecl by a propositioe, which required that
the officer should merely be re-gazetted after 5 years'
service on any staff appointment. They were told by his
hon. friend that the new organisation of the army was
important, as a means of bringing forward 'young men to
stiff appointments, and to the command of brigades and
divisions ; but while this reform was going on he found
an old general of 32—Lord Seaton—appointed to the
chief command of the forces in Ireland. That Lord Sea-
ten was a soldier of distinction of whom the country
o !gist to be proud he fully admitted, but he questioned
whether a man 83 years of age was fitted for such a
command. He concurred with his right hon. friend that
whether the details of his plan were adopted or not, they
oug!it to set to work in earnest to make the establish-
, tnent w teas to be retained, as the nucleus of the
more efficient force which would be required in time of
war, as efficient as possible.

Sir DE L. EVANS considered that Government should

be requil ed togi ve a pledge to carty out the recommendation
of the committee, alluded to by his right hon. friend (Hr.
Ellice), that staff appointments should not be held for a

longer period than 5 years. In time of peace especially
there could be no difficulty iu finding officers fully qualified
t fill such appointments. The hon. gentleman had alluded
to arrangements made by the noble lord the Secretary for
War for the establishment of a competitive system of exa-
mination; he (Sir Do Lacy Evans) believed the change in
that respect would be of the greatest advantage to the ser-
vice, and he begged to offer his best acknowledgements to
the noble lord for it. He was glad to hear that it bad an-
swered the expectations entertained of it, and ho hoped
that it would be further extended. He agreed with his
right hon. friend the member for Coventry that the tone
of the Under-Secretary for War was not very cheering,
with regard to despatch being used in carrying on the sys-
tem of military education. The hoe. gentleman had al-
luded to the army being kept together in brigades and
divisions, instead of being scattered about in detachments;
eel no doubt that would be of use, but it was not enough,
There were perhaps several gentlemen present who sat on
thu inquiry into the system pursued at the Military Col-
lege, and they probably knew more of it than he did ; but
ha (Sir De Lacy Evans) believed that the stete of that col-
;ego was vary unsatisfactory. There wore two classes of
examination, one of which was of too high a character,
while the other was too slight, and Colonel Prosser, one
of the officers of the college, was asked whether it was not
of such a nature as that a very stupid lad could pass it,
and he said yes That being the present state of irilitary
education and instruction, the hon. gentleman still cried
out for time to consider about it. He was aware that at
this period of the session they could not require a complete
plan from the Government ; but they could have before
them the result of the inquiries of committees of that
house, and of a commission to inquire into the military
eYstem of foreign countries, which ought to produce some
r )suli. The hon. gentleman had drawn a distiation between
a high scholastic test of fitness for commissions in the
army, and the fitness of those who without high scholas-
tic acquirements, yet possessed common sense, nerve, and
strength of body. He (Sir Da Lacy Evans) admitted
that a high scholastic test was not necessary, but that
was a very different thing to giving a commission to any
stupid person that had 5031. or 6031. in his pocket. It
Was clear that military education wee in an unsatisfac-
tory state. It was certain that the- postponement of ,
the consideration of the question which was asked fur by
the hoc. gentleman was for no less than another year, for
there was not a word in the estimates on the subject. He
thought that with the co-operation of the right hon. gentle-
man, the member for Wiltshire, there could bone difficulty
found by the War-office in coming to a decision before the
house was up for this session, and that the house should bo
applied to for the necessary moans. As regarded the ques-
tion of pectriia.ry means, it was remarkable that for3oyears
net one shilling hard been expended in the education of offi-
cers. The Military College was car; ie I on, on what was
called the self-supporting system. Ho .was old enough
to have served in the last war with America, and one ad-
vantage that we had over the Americans was that they had
no military knowledge. As soon as peace was proclaimed,
they having seen their mistake, instituted a system of mi-
litary instruction for their small army, and they had an
excellent military college, with an establishment much
larger than the one we kept up for our large army. It was
only yesterday that ho had heard evidence given before the
Royal Commission to inquire into the system of purchase,
with regard to the plan of military instruction pursued in
Austria, and it was stated that for the instruction of 7,000
oflicere and nou-eommissioned officers a sum of 230,0001. a
year wile spent ; a stun almost equal to a mill'en with us.
The French, the Sardinian, an I the Prussian Governments
'Tent considerable sums in the education of their armies,
aud thi., country alone did nothing of the kind.. He
hoped the War-office would accelerate their movements
in this matter, and before the session ended come for-
ward with some proposition on the subject. With
regard to the staff, that was a question which required
a mind great
Ivil
o e
fofexamination,
and he had not made up his
or a separate corps for the etaff,
ki was the plan in foreign ermiee, was the best. Ho knew
r our system
teat at the end of the Peninsular war the staff of the Bri-
tish army was the best in the world, but it had boon
created by the best chief in Europe, and been brought to
perfection by long experience in service. He hoped that
the noble lord at the head of the governmenit would see
that this question was breught on for consideration this
ear.

Colonel DUNNE urged that it was evident that the go-
vernment was in no hurry on this subject, for they had
materials euough to proceed on, and thu waiting for the
report of the commission to inquire into thu system of
foreign armies was a futile pretext for delay. He hoped
that the right hon. gentleman (Kr. Herbert), to whom
every one connected with the army mast feel grateful,
would press on the government the necessity of action in
this matter. The system even of practical instruction in
the army had diminished silica ho had first entered it.
tie was of opinion that a groat many thea.retical subjects
which were required to pass ex mination in the army
were of no use, and would be better supplied by practical
instruction. It was of no use having the highest know-
iedge of abstract mathematics, and yet bo unacquainted
g,arihveennotol;ltehe best,
with any of the practical principles of fortification. The
right hon. gentleman had touched the real reason for a
deficiency of professional feeling in the army, when he
she Nod that stair appointments and promotions wore not
ffi'ra ' hut were awarded for very different reasons.
theoreticaltdi et
encaor army,
i y, before(,
fre most meriorious, and most instructed
and gallant gentleman then urged that the evi-
citerroirsceeonanFalti3otetre: to enquire into the state of
much professional education dhow favo ur
thate f
for
twhoh e
armyw er were least
went
to
an
eney of -the service. He repeated his acknowledgments
was necessary to the eißci-
to the right hen, gentleman, the member for Wiltshire,

tleman was irregular in discussing a bill on the question of
going into committee of supply.
' Mr. HORSMAN said, then be would merely state the
views of the hon. gentleman, and he was proceeding to react
a letter from the hon. ~entleman, to the effcct that he
should be ministering to a complete delusion if he said
there was any hope of carrying the bill, when
The SPE A.KER again intimated that the right hon. gen-
tleman was out of order.

Mr. HORS NUN said, then with regard to the vote that
he had gven=
_ _ _

The RPEAKER said nothing could be more irregular
than a discussion as to the vote of a member, on the ques-
tion that the house go into committee of supply.
Mr. HORSMIN said he had frankly confessed to-day
that he had made a mistake. He represented the Govern-
ment, and was responsible. As he was asked the question
he was bound to answer it. However, he agreed with the
Speaker that he was irregular, and he could only say that
be was prepared to defend his conduct when the proper
time arrived.
The house then went into committee of supply.
The first vote was 2,000!. on account of the annuity to
the Board of Manufactures in Scotland, in tiischarge of
equivalents under the treaty of union.
In answer to Mr. WILLIAM 3,
Mr. WILSON said this sum was now applied is support
of a school of design in Scotland.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote, 5,0001. for the commissioners of High-
• land road and bridges, was agreed to without remark.
On the next vote, 12,0001. for bounties on slaves and
tonnage bounties.
Sir F. BARING asked for au explanation, seeing that
the amount expended last year under this head was only
4,0001.
Mr. WILSON said, though the voto might be taken the
money could not be expended except under the provisions
of the act.

Lord PALMERSTON could answer one part of the
question. The slave trade, by the exertion of the cruisers,
and more particularly on the Brazilian coast, had now for
several years been extinguished. It had prevailed a little
in Cuba, but not much, and therefore the amount ex-
pended on rewards for captures had been very small. Last
year, however, there was a great mortality in Brazil from
an epidemic, and there were groat symptoms of the renewal
of the Brazilian slave trade. They knew that several ves-
sels had been fitted out in the United States to carry slaves
from the coast of Africa to Brazil, and one or two cargoes
had been actually landed on the coast of Brazil, and that
was the reason why a larger sum was asked for under this
head this year.
The vote was then agreed to.
900/. to defray the expense of the commissioners for the
publication of ancient laws of Ireland.—Agreed to.
9,0001. for process servers in Ireland, formerly defrayed
from the excise revenue.—Agreed to.
70,0001., merchant seamen's fund pensions.—Agreed to.
`2,300/., joint-stock companies registration (Board of
Trade).—Agreed to.
1,7931. Registration of Designs Office.—Agreed to.
The next vote was for 29,000/. for payments on account
of the difference of dues payable by British or foreign ves-
sels under treaties of reciprocity.
Mr. WILLIAMS asked for some explanation of this
vote.
Mr. WILSON said there was annually laid on the table
of the house a statement in detail of the payments under
this vote. The whole subject was under the consideration
of a committee upstairs, and it was not desirable, there-
fore, to discuss it at present.
Agreed to.
On the vote 3,500/. for the salaries and expenses of the
inspectors of corn returns,
Mr. STAFFORD said nt the time when the corn-laws
were repealed great complaints were justly made of the
mode of collecting the corn returns, and he wished to know
what had been done to improve the machinery.
Mr. J. WILSON had the satisfaction of stating that a
gradual improvement was being made in the system. For-
merly persons were appointed inspectors merely because
they were engaged in the corn trade, not because they had
any peculiar facilities for performing the duties; but as
they had died off their places had been supplied by officers
of the Inland Revenue, whose returns had generally been
found correct. He hoped that the collection of these re-
turns and of agricultural statistics generally would ulti-
mately be combined, and that one result of that combina-
tion would be to secure an accurate return of the corn sold
by the farmer as well as that sold by the dealer.
Mr. WISE said that, so far as corn rents and tithe pay-
ments were concerned, the present returns were entirely
delusive. The whole system was unsatisfactory, and he
trusted that some assurance would be given by her Ma-
jesty's Government that the matter would be carefully
considered with a view to an alteration, including, first,
an extension of the number of towns from which the ave-
rages were made up; and, secondly, the compelling the
seller to record every sale in some or other. Without ob-
taining returns of all the corn sold in the country they
could never arrive at satisfactory averages.
Mr. L. DAVIES thought that before the inspectors
were condemned it should be taken into account that an
im'nease quantity of the corn sold w.:15 never taken to a
town, and that the inspector of the district could not
therefore include it in his returns.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE said his attention was first called to
this subject some years since, when he was connected with
the Board of Trade. The present system was no doubt
most inadequate to the obtaining of complete statistical in-
formation with regard to the sale of corn ; but if they were
to make the machinery efficient for that purpose, in the first
place the expenditure would bo much larger than it was at
present, and in the second place it would interfere with mi-
nute transactions in a manner that•might lead to consider-
able difficulty. The practical purpose for which the returns
were obtained related to the Tithe Commutation Act, and
he did not believe there was an important error in the re-
sults. The returns wore doubtless procured merely from
sellers who were willing to give information, and he ad•
mitted that that was a loose way of getting them ; but, on
the other hand, the seller had uo interest in mis-stating
prices, and he bJieved that, rude and imperfect as the ma-
chinery was, practically answered the purpose. As to the
collection of :agricultural statistics, that was a very large
and important question, and it was certainly not contem-
plated when the arrangements under consideration were
devised. •
Agreed to.
17,0001. was voted for the relief of distrossed British sea-
men abroad, and 3 6001. for quarantine expenses.
On the vote of 17,850/. for revising barristers.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he thought the duties of the
revising barristers should be performed by the county court
judges, who had recently received a very large increase of
salaries, which was unaccompanied with any increase of
their duties.
Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE did not agree with the hon.
member. There were times when the duties of revising
barristers were extremely arduous, and it was impossible
forcounty court judges to perform them in addition to their
great labours. The vacation of .a county cuurt judge was
already extremely short, and it must not be diminished.
Mr. L. DAVIS supported the vote.
Mr. MULLINGS said the committee on the salaries of
the county court judges, of which he was a member, took
this question into consideration, and they were unani-
mously of ()Pinion that it would be highly oujectionable to
throw upon such persons the duties now performed by re-
vising barristers.

Mr-. M. CEIAMBERS thought that if there were any
fault is th 3 matter it consisted in the appointment of re-
vising barristers who were not competent to discharge the
duties.

After a few words from Mr. W. WILLIAMS,
The vote wax agreed to.
On the vote of 7,233/. for the expense of the police a
the camp at Aldershot,

Mr. W. WILLIAMSsaid he considered this item a most
extraordinary one. Re could not understand why taxes
Should' be levied to pay county policemen for keeping
15,000 militia in order. He would be glad to keow in what
the duties of he police consisted, and why they could not
be as wall performed by militiamen as by police? He had
certainly heard it jokingly said with regard to one regiment
of militia that the front rank wore obliged to take great care
of their pockets lest the rear rank should pick them. Still
he thought the veto required explanation.
Mr. J. WILSON said this vote involved a great consti-
tutional principle. Tho hon. member should bear in mind
that three years ago, when a camp was formed at Chob-
ham, a large sum was expended iu maintaining a police
force there. When the camp at Aldershot was perma-
nently established the Home-offiao was asked to censieler
by what means the peace of the neighbourhood should be
preserved; it being obvious that a very large concourse of
people of various kinds would be collected round the camp,
and that a large additional police force would be required.
It was suggested by some_ persons at the time, as it
had been that evening by the hon. gentleman, that
police officers in rad coats might be employed ; but con-
sidering the jealousy which had always existed between
the civil and military authorities in this country, the
Government thought no ouo would like to see the
preservation of the peace placed permanently in the
hands of the militia. That would, in fact, have been trans-
ferring the duty of preserving the peace from tho Home-
office to the War-office. (Hoar, hear.) The vote under
coue;deration extended over a year and a half, and he cor-
tamly did not think it would have been fair to Hampshire
and Surrey to impose that burden on them for the main-
tenance of the peace at the camp.
Lord LOVAINE observed that the Home-office assented
to the present arrangement ou the application of the Chief
Constable of Surrey.
Mr.•HUfCHINS said, residing as he did, when in the
country, not far from the camp at Aldershott, he could
bear lesimony that, with few exceptions, the conduct of
the militia, as well as that of the regular troops in the
camp, was such as to reflect great credit on them.
Mr. A. PELLATT thought that fact was an argument
against the maintenance of a police force.
Mr. HENLEY said a very large question was involved.
in this vote. If the camp at Aldrehott was intended to
be permanent, as appeared to be the case, there must be a
permanent addition made to the value of the property,
and in that case it would bs a question whether the locality
ought not to bear the burden of maintaining the requisite
police force. •

- Sir W. HEATHCOTE thought it was clearly in the
contemplation of the framers of the Police Act to make a
case like this exceptional. In reply to the last observation
of the right hon. gentleman, he wonld observe that as the
ground belonging to the Government covered a very large
area, not r. single shilling would be added to the county
rates.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS remarked that there were no police
to be soon at Shorncliffe.

Lord PALMERSTON said police were'not required at
Altlershott, as the hon. gentlemen appeared to suppoio, to
protect the soldiers, who were able to protect themselves,
and if they were not the police would not be competent to
protect them ; but it was well known that wherevera large
body of troops was collected together a very erratic popu-
lation settLA around them, and unless the practice of,
foreign countries were adopted and order preserved by
martial law, it was evident that there must be a civil force
to preserve the peace. Let it bo clearly understood, then.
that a police force was required, not to protect the sol-
diers, but to preserve order in the circumference which
surrounded the camp, within which there was to be found
a very largo population of loose habits and disorderly cha-
racters.

Mr. \V. WILLIAMS —Let the soldiers take care of them-
selves.

Lord PALMERSTON continued—Would his hon. friond
like the peace of the country to be preserved by detach-
ments of troops? Why he felt sure that if people wore ap-
prehended by a corporal's guard, and carried by it before
the nearest magistrate, his bon, friend would be one of the
first to complain that that was a breach of the constitutional
princip'es of the emntry. As to the supposed improve-
ment of the neighbourhood, ho did not. think that notion
was well founded. It was because c f the barrenness of
the land that it had been fixed upon for the camp, and
hence it was not a locality which persons would be likely
to choose for a residence.
. . _

Sir F. BARING hoped that when this vote had been
Passed, the claims of Plymouth and Portsmouth would be
taken into consideration. (A. laugh.)
Mr. M. CHAMBERS hoped that this vote would not be
taken a's a precedent', .aithough it might be necessary to