The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-28 00:00:00

and see whether the tribunals already existing were
sufficient to try the offences that might he brought
before them or not, and wh-ther the police were sulk.
ciently strong to execute the orders of those tribunes.
It not, they should be strenethened, for that would be
making strong the hands of justice. The hands of justice
should he strengthened ; but in doing so, a new species
nr tajoariee shoolil not be introduced. :ma would be by the
present measure. Ii they reflected, that when a man
was brought before a Court of Justice, the only security
he had for the establishment of nis innocence was in the
imaattiality of the tribunal to which his fate was in-
trusted. he put it to the House whather a courtmartial,
constituted as those courtsmartial were to be constituted,
was likely to he impartial, nr if the Members, of which it
was to be composed, were likely to go to their task with
those feelings of candour and desire for justice, which a
Court of Justice on ht to have. —( Heat.) He knew that
the officers composing those Courts would be so far per.
fectly impartial, that they would not bear spite to any
iodiviilual who might be brought before them ; but could
it be supposed that they wou d be without some feeling of
antipathy and provocation, knowing previously that they
ace in the disturbed districts? They might consider it as
important that they should condemn as many as possiale,
as examples to the rest ; and it would, therefore, be an
object to condemn where there was even a colour•of evi-
dence, however slight that evidence might be.—(Cries of
" No, no.") It tas hardly necess try for him to take
part either for or against, but he considered it a property
of a soldier in every age, not to be so particular about
evidence in such cases as Courts of Justice should. If the
House thought that those courtsmartial would be impar-
tial, did they yet think that they would look to the cases
with that discrimination which was necessary to the
ends of justice ? Are they to balance conflicting testimony
so as to elicit the truth? Are they to examine witnesses
with that c ire, anxiety, and patience which is necess try
in older to discover the true state of cases ?—a duty diffi-
cult with any, but more especially with an Irish witness.
--(A laugh.) II tribunals constituted so as to form the
foundations of our Constitution, ant the safeguards, of our
liberties, were liable to mistakes, what would be the case
with tribunals, constituted as courtsmartial were, be likely
to do ? And the worst part of the system was; that if
they did commit mistakes, they were generally on the
side—not of mercy, but of severity.—(Hear, hear; and,
No, no.) It was astonishing to him to hear the Noble
Lord object to sending down Judges of Assize to the dis-
turbed districts, instead of adopting throe courtsmartial.
If that suggestion had been acceded to, he would have had
less obj, crion to this Bill; for he thought that, in some
circumstances, it might be desir itile to dispense with trial
by jury. In looking to the different clauses of the Bill,
he could not help observing one clause which was lik, ly
to render the evils which he had descriied as the probable
result of those military tribunals still more grievous. He
alluded to that clause which made courtsmartial responsible
for misconduct to other courtsmartial—and to those only.
He would .mak if it were to be imagined that an officer,
brought before another courtmartial, was likely to suffer
for any abuse of his power which he might have exer-
cised in the exercise of his duty while on these courts-
martial ? It was not to be expected, for the esprit de corps
was so strong among the officers, that the condemnation
of a military man for a military offence would be found
extremely difficult. When he looked to the Bill, and saw
that military men only were to be members of those
courtsmartial, and when he saw, as appeared by the 37th
clause, that " In case of a verdict for the plaintiff in ac-
tion for false imprisonment, or entering a house, if it
appears to the Judge that there was probable cause for so
doing, and he certifies accordingly, the plaintiff shall re-
cover only sixpence damages, and not the costs of the
suit ; but plaintiff shall recover treble costs if the Judge
certify the act to he malicious ;" he would say that it
would deter all men, however much aegrieved they might
feel, from complainine, as most men would prefer to have
their grievance unredressed to the risk of being mulcted in
the costs ist. suit. He put his objection to the Bill on two
distinct grounds. He objected. in the firr place, to that
part of it which subjected Ireland to the government of
military tribunals ; and in the second place, he objected to
that part which prohibited public meetings and the right
to petition. The prohibition of the constitutional right
to petition would not, he conceived, either add to or di-
minish by one jot the outrages in Ireland.—(Cheers.)
1 hey would not advance one step towards the tranquilliz
tion of that country, by denying to the people the right
of petitioning against public grievances. What ver
might he said as to the difficulty of obtaining evidence,
or as to the necessity of arming justice with powers
which would make it swift and strong, as well as
sure, he (Mr. Gro'e) could not admit that as a sufficient
eround for depriving Ireland of this their great constitu-
tional right. He was sure they had not arrived yet at
the period when the relations between the governors and
the governed in that country were so pure, and so free
from suspicion, as to enab e the people to dispense with
all the bulwarks of the Constitution. There were abundance
of grievances yet to redress in that country—not that he
charged the present Government with being the authors
of teem, for they existed long before they came into
power—but they did exist, and he thought it would be
wise a, will as delicate in the Government to p ruse bef re
they shut the door against all the public complaints of the
people of Leland. On these erounds he would protest
against that part of the Bill which suppressed public meet-
ings, mad the right to petition. fully as strong.), as he
would against the part which placed Leland under the do
inihioa of court,martial. He would likewise b-g to re-
mind the Noble Lord opposite, that it was very doubtful
if t• e country was in such a disturbed state as to war rant
the measures proposed, even if they were otherwise unex•
reptionable• Many woo were well acquainted with Ire-
land thought not. He would instance two, who were
well known to the Government and the country, atho were
of that opinion. He me int Sir J. Harvey and Mr. Bar-
rington, both of whom denied that the state of Ireland
was so disturbed as was represented. There was nothing
hid before the House sufficient to show that the wive of
that cuuutry was such as to justify the House in pa-sing
this harsh measure. He hoped. therefore, that they would
pause moil sufficient evidence was laid before them, for he
begged of them to recollect, that in passing this Blll—in
suspending the Habeas Corpus Act, they were placing the
life of every man in Ireland at the discretion of Govern
meat and the military.—(Cheers.) He trusted that. Go-
vernment would reconsider the matter and would give the
House time to obtain evidence of the necessity of the
measure, as was suggest, d by the Hon. M tuber for Lam-
beth. It was absolutely necessary that they should have
evidence to enable them to see the way before them, and
to judge of the wisdom and expediency of it, before they
proceeded to pass one of the harshest measures which was
ever passed in a British Parliament —(Cheers.) He
thought that if the Noble Lord gave the House time to
take evidence, and if the evidence when taken confirmed the
necessity of the measure, it would relieve the Noble Lord of
time great responsibility which he roust now bear if he press
the House to pass it on no other evidence but the state-
ment made to night by him. He concluded by saying,
that be would give his firmest support to the motion made
by the Hon. Member for Lambeth.—(Cheere.)
Captain BARCLAY was certain that no man was safe
at present in some districts of Ireland, if not protected by
military. In order to establish that position, he would
mention a few facts which happened to him in the comity
of Kilkenny within the last three years. During the
first part of his residence in that country, the amus meat
of fox-heating, which he occasionally followed, brought
him often in contact with the people. He was frequently
benighted in the most dreary and lonely situation:, and
occasionally he lost his way, but he never hesitated to enter
into the must wretched cottages to ask his way to Wood-
stock, the seat of Mr. Tighe (where he resided) and when
he named either that gentleman, or Mr. Power, of Kil-
kenny, he always found those names a passport. He was
sure that many Irish Gentlemen in that House would bear
him out in saying, that there was no better landlord nor
better man in Ireland—(Hear, hear)—than the same Mr.
Tighe. He would prefer being benighted in Ireland at
th it time, than in many parts of England. This was in
1829. But then came 1830 and 1831, when the Noble
Lord now at the head of the Woods and Forests vacated
his seat on account of taking office. Till that time agita-
tion had not reached the county of Kilkenny ; but soon
afterwards the county was overrun with agitators not be-
longing to the county, who endeavoured to rouse the people
to petition for the repeal of the Union. At his former elec-
tion, the Noble Lordwas drawn in his carriage by the populace
for ten miles, from Thomastown ; but now the tenants
who voted for the Noble Lord were waylaid on their re-
turn home from the election, many of them were cruelly
maimed and beaten, some had their farming utensils de-
stroyed, and their orchards cut down, merely because
they voted for the Noble Lord ; who, though formerly
most popular, became thus odious because he would not
support the agitators in their call for the repeal of the
Union.--(Hear.) Circumstances were then changed, and
it became dangerous to be out late; and at lest Mr. Power
--though formerly a most popular man—told him, that
be hoped that he (Captain Barclay) would not go out in
future after the hounds ; for if he did, the loss of his life
would be the consequence. Nor did it end there; for
shortly afterwards M. Power's hounds were stoned to
death. Did the House think that this outrage was com-
misied because Mr. Power was a harsher man, or a worse
landlord than he was formerly? No. It was committed
merely because he voted for the Noble Lord. He could