The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-24 00:00:00

permit him to insert a ciause that no member of the hOlO4
should be a commissioner?

Lord ALTHORP—Yes.
Mr. HODGES, who was nearly inaudible in the gal'
lerv, referred to Mr. Whitbread's bill in 179 b, for the re
gulation of wages of labourers, and Mr. Pitt's speech ca
the occasion, which, he contended, was a sort of contract,
on the faith of which he levied the enormous taxes di
required, the burdens of which were increased by the h
of 1819. He, therefore, thought the suspension of the al'
lowances should be done with great caittimi, and with a dui
consideration for the interests of the labourer.
Colonel DAVIES objected to the discussion of that
principle on a clause in which it was not. involved.
Mr. HODGES hoped the commissioners would of
be allowed to interfere in parishes where the rates were fixed.
*Sir S. WHALLEY withdrew his amendment. d,
That part of the clause with Lord Althorp's alnen
ment was then, agreed to. led
Mr. H. HUGHES had a petition from eleven ton ed
parishes of Oxford, and from all the advices he had received
from that city he could say that. unless the power§ POPpela
to he given to the board were much modified, they wftilf
get no respectable man in that city to take upon htis
the office of governor. They managed their own a:0,
very well, and did not want any control over
(Laughter.)
Some discussion then ensued on the distance fi•oin wbidi
nd
vi tnesses should be summoned by the commissioners, 'es
Lord Althorp assented to Mr. Clay's suggestion, that ti
miles would be a proper limit, as all beyond that distll:le
would be examined by the assistant-commissioner•
would be a convenience to the parties themselves. •T,..
The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to read thi renal-to
der of the clause, but on coming to that part relativeceas,
the enforcement of the production of books, de
papers, &c., Nisi?
Air. C. W. WYNN suggested the propriety of estaeto
ing a right of appeal either to the King's Bench"
some court to be constituted or the urose.
Lord ALTHORP (lid notf at presepntp think it neeessarY'
but would take it into consideration.
Mr. C. BULLER was understood to object to the e°o-
missioners calling for production of deeds.
Sir W. HORNE thought it desirable that the ema to
sioners should have the most extensive power e localisttead,
ministration eect to their general superintendence ; the ow
of the poor laws and all the details ro"stn,.t., of
sarily be lett to the parishes. Unlike other cog' t it-
to pu
jus' ice, this court, it would be remembered, had
self in motion.
After a long and desultory discussion, in the
course '4
whMr.ich, he the
CUTLAR FERGUSSON suggested that flat
commissioners should have the power of examining, _it
only persons connected with the administration of the Pu"
laws, but all others, rrestion
Lord ALTHORP observed, that it was a sug,
well worthy of consideration. discussion
The part of the clause which had been under discu
was (we believe, with some amendment) agreed to. out
On the proposition of Lord ALTHORP, for striking
of the clause that part which gave the commissioners pow'
to commit for contempt,
Mr. BARING expressed his doubt whether the cony
missioners without such a power would be able to enforce
obedience.
Lord ALTHORP stated that the power was propose 6
to be struck out in consequence of the alarm it excited is
the public mind, and that it was intended to transfer it t°
two magistrates.
The amendment was then agreed to. of
On the motion that the clause so amended stand partthe bill.
Mr. HODGES proposed that the clause should hay.e_t;ae
operation in those parishes in which. the poor rates had De
diminished during the last two years.
On this proposition a discussion of considerable length
to
Mr. place. ." od one'
TOWERS thought the amendment a go_ e the
He would recommend that in those parishes %O'er, the
poor rate did not amount to above a certain sutra °lof ill
rack-rent, the commissioners should have no
terference. mead-
Colonel EVANS was disposed to support the a.„erits,
ment on its own intrinsic merits. Were thosn;iined
however, not so evident, he should have still been lecrhans,
to entertain it, coming, as it did, from one who, P of the
was better acquainted with the practical working / gest,
poor laws than any other individual in the kildeorar'opositioa
hear.) He hoped the noble lord would give t
his most serious consideration. at
to attach teat
Lord ALTHORP was always ready a
la (Air.
weight to the opinions of the hon. gentler,_ e house.
Hodges), particularly on the subject then before tu_a wee
In its present shape, however, he could not at rrcd, who,
to the amendment (so we understood the nohlf I°_l tone)•
upon every occasion, spoke in a low, conversation.
f the set
Mr. HODGES said he was afraid the e'l'ect
orfered,
would be that in parishes where Government in base
the exertions of, individuals, which might previonMietoy
been of the most beneficial character, would be cooT nolci
neutralized, and that an immense amount of labour V‘4,llt
thus be thrown upon the Government. For the Pr-•og
he would withdraw his amendment, in the hope of 441
it so as to meet the-approbation ogthe house. ( Hear. ),ell
Mr. BAINES said that a parish with which he was
acquainted, and which was one of the largest and best
gulated in the country, had sent a petition to that hcla",•;
power
tb°
stating that they understood their own situation and
ht, Were
own interests better than the commissioners, w--- that
'
without any local knowledge, possibly could do • and with
they thought it unwise and improper to interfere eet,
them, when, in fact, no evil existed. (Hear.) _ where
flawshi bad policy to introduce such poereleially•
the were at present enforced fully and h °est, e
He denied not that the measure was in many point. and
cellent one, but it was too extensive in its applicat%iov,
instead of proving a means of relief, would, in his ? he
become a source of annoyance. At the proper timed to
thought it would be desirable for some hon. gentlemant
move that the commissioners should be empowered
. were
6d. in the pound, but the)
os hsnae
itsdhet wherehraaet k
the
een ratestr.at
es exceededinihis
p a
rt twoo sf ht;
The only effect of such an amen
Mr. CAYLEY
be, for the coni,'s.,,
the rates whic:
o
sioners to wait in their remedial efforts till
countryolnionly
iinn
dthihdeo exceed)neooutpnadr
were now Is. 6d. were, by mismanagement, i
s,• not
bygraduallytiielion.
n. cmr eeams ibnegr,
faonrdLteheed
sr ovvuonudlsdmen were
nciorme
as 1..
t..:1
its. in the pound. The commissioners, in fact,
interfere where their powers were not requisite..s.
~_ which
Mr. BAINES begged to say, that in the part h"
he had alluded roundsmen were unknown. ~n 15,00°
Lord DARLINGTON said they all knew that
parishes there would be many found in which tecali)cron pa'
dm-ent as the one suggest
were excellently administered. Many of the „werned.
rishes, and his own especially, were most propepjl 'Where in'
d
With these there would be no interference ; °
o be arra
terference might be necessary, the board ought t
was cler,
with the fullest powers. .e itto
Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY sat s had powero
from the 13th clause, that the commissioner
There was
interfere in every parish in the kingdom•
exception whatever. 0'
The clause as amended was then passed.
Chair°
Clause the third was then p..oposed by the
On arriving at the words " seal of the said Boar
all er
Sir S. WHALLEY rose amidst much laughter,• (WI
tper es
movesi o n s
that of f
afterN o
the words
Th The
jhuos nt
read membersheeltdeltbeitinu_serl'ottehtle;
p-roaTbnhadetiaosna).motto to distinguish the said Boards fr°l7 Go
Boards, the words sic cola, sic jubeo' " (Cries aisalY
on," and " Nonsense," and other expressions
clause was then passed, as were also the fourth an
the fifth. the
The sixth clause was then proposed, cruPowerninwhich
commissioners to appoint assistant commissioners;, at
Coknel WOOD. rose and said they had arriv roPeee
clause of the bill to which it was his intentircat.o, P,e
an amendment, to the effect that visiterssesssi
„s, to s-
pointed by the'magistrates at any quarter as
w°ell
that the provisions of the bill were carriedunder considerati fairly
00,
fully into execution. The clause then
int nine assistau'
-as tnten-e
eammissioners. Now if it
(!,
number, he had no hoar
should work with the board,ootn
h large. But if it were iv:
tion in saying, was much(teild be of an ambulatory ebean
tended that their duties
empowered the central board to aP,Icl that these nine
most ridiculously small. It was it • }the
was the number _ their duties in various parts °
sable they they could
2,erought to be performed. Hoard
country as they would would be for the Central 13, io
sumed . the P-a- • • ,•,” t her t
• dar instructions to the anteren ,
to issue partio. of tne r-c),
coo'
the co„otry to correct the mal-administration
central` ch
He found in one of the reports of the
.„s en
laws.that in a parish of Bucks, the many V.l.d by ro'
meter ; that they should travel from parish to parish, tbor
fusing to make up wages. He hoped ,be to ,„,
had previously existed had been entirelythreernveer; firsrtefuins;
„ono • f te-
struction issued by the Central Board, e rote
a 1 relief but for work done, and to refusaliaded to,
tli
making up of wages. In the parish he d
ha also been
se!,
report went on to say that much gotf had „cork of %.
verer nature than he would in another fected by putting an applicant for
bought it would
had
subjected to. He (Colonel Wood) t opple. h hail
well if the Ceniral Board followed this ee
d too rouc
been asserted that the magistrates interr he wonld adono
the administration of the pocernleaws-s: d
0 aHe did not
that in some points they had d
devised .by which there
tmg
once, or lie feared much to he
cision of the oveeer:nel;-.a By his plan a remedy orvotiessi
venience Woulidthe
people would see that their gricoott a
provided, ant.
looked into, and reported to the ,hould
were at once would therefore propose that visitors old
Board' ethe different it goal
be be appointed to parishes, whose vr id
of their plait of scales, butt flitttillhtehearhe
appealm us
from o i$ g3thei.je
be to visit them once every year, to see that 11:;.'e si•otot
• • of the bill were carried into full effect. n d thll
Slolls
likewise propose that the parish should pay thenl,,;i:ons bt°,
a power be given to the magistrates at petty
should gc,er
call for an extra visit during the year, if such s doe
deemed necessary. lie Would also have a guar rot
the poor appointed for every county, w--h°se watt
especial duty, as the name imported, would be ,t°
be pruld ebeo
situation