The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-29 00:00:00

SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE.

VESSELS ENTERED INWARDS AT THE CUSTOM-HOUSE, AEG. 28.
Earl of Liverpool, Lomart, Ostend, off Tower ; London,
Pearson, Rotterdam, Brewer's-quay ; Earl Bathurst, Kenedy,
ditto, ditto ; Palas, Lanstrom, Gottenburg, Limehouse ;
Apollo, Extram, Schien, Blackwall ; Ethelbert, Dunford, St.
Petersburg, Regent's-canal; Orwall, Cubitt, Harlingen,
Brewer's-quay ; Cato, Smith, Grenada, West India Dock ;
London Packet,. Reay, Faro, London Dock; Ocean, Dodds,
Archangel, Deptford Creek ; Fenissoda Kinde, Holm,
Aalborg, Limehouse ; Fame, Borfield, Harlingen, Brewer's-
quay; Maria Ann, Echennie, Bilboa, Brewer's-quay; King-
ston, Sowell, Antigua, London Dock ; Charlotte, Rees, St.
John's, New Brunswick, Limehouse ; Thomas King, William-
son, Demerara, London Dock ; Heder, Field, Jamaica, West
India Dock; Regatta, Galloway, Cadiz, London Dock.

ENTERED OUTWARDS FOR LOADING, Auc. 28.

Batavier, Dunlop, Rotterdam; London Merchant, Mowe,
Hamburg; Zenobia, Owen, Calcutta; Amity, Nickol, Lisbon ;
Ottawa, Hammond, Quebec and Montreal ; Columbine,
Pilcher, St. Marv's ; Thisbe, Charters, Jamaica; Prince of
Waterloo, Page, Ostend, Bruges, and Ghent ; Earl of Liver-
pool, Lomax, Ostend; Topaz, Henry, Barbadoes ; Louisa,
Chalker, Lisbon.

CLEARED OUTWARDS WITH CARGOES, AOC. ‘2S.
Vigiland, Magul, Lisbon; Luna, Tagliafevro, Malta; Anna
Margaretta Kirstine, Jans, Copenhagen ; Bermudo, Godfrey,
Naples ;,Felix, Stjeoncrantz, Cbristiansans ; Luna, Lond,
Boston.

CLBARNII OUTWARDS IN BALLAST, Ave. 28.
Narva, Hubert, Archangel ; Stella, Park, St. Petersburg ;
ly. Pacher, Hack, Sydney, New South Wales.

The Shrewsbury Chronicle says, that some itine-
rant showmen recently visited that town with a ribbed-faced
baboon, which, it is suspected, has been trained by its owners
to commit robberies on houses in the night by climbing up
places inaccessible ,to men, and thereby gaining an entrance
through the bedroom windows. Last week a lady residing in
that town, on retiring to bed, found the animal in her room,
and it instantly attacked her, on being discovered, and fought
with so much fury; when the lady's husband came to her
rescue, that he was glad to let it escape through the window.
A gold watch was missed from the table, which it is supposed
the animal had carried off. The following morning the
owners of the baboon left the town with the suspected burglar.
the final Glasgow Lot-
Bish's offices were pre-eminent.
ze in shares, but sold fourteen
3,787, 16,0001. in 11 shares.
4,709 £soo
5,403
4,165
4,821
2,167
5,652

A s UsUA L.—Yesterday
tery was drawn, when, as usual,
He not only sold the grand pri
capitals out of nineteen ; viz.
3,683
1,423
947
1,533
2,026
3,823

5,284
The fortunate holders may
.3, Cornhill ; 27, Poultry ; o]

receive the value on demand at
Ir, 138, Regent-street.

EVIDENCE OF THE LORD CHANCELLOR.
The examination of the Right Hon. the LORD HIGH CHAN-
CELLOR, attending by permission of the House of Lords, was
examined.
When the committee broke up yesterday, I had stated
that I entertained a very strong opinion upon the bad
effects of stamps on newspapers as connected with the sub-
ject of the committees inquiry, the law of libel. I con=
sider, in the first place, that when men talk of the abuses
of the press and of libels through the press, though the ex-
pression is general and applies to all publications, books
and pamphlets, as well as others, that yet, practically and
substantially speaking, it relates chiefly to newspapers, inas-
much as these are infinitely more numerous, and a vastly
greater number of them are purchased, and a still greater
proportion of those purchased are read, than Of any other
works; so that when you talk of libels, and of the press as
connected with libels, you really mean the newspapers
rather: than all the .rest of the press's productions put
together. Now let us only, in the next place, consider
what the effects of those stamps are. If anything can be a
better security than another against the abuses of the power
the press and the newspapers 'possess, 'it appears to be the
security afforded by the respectability of those in whose
hands those newspapers are. Therefore, I hold it to be
quite clear that everything which tends to lower the
character of the persons who write and publish newspapers
tends in just the same proportion to diminish the purity
of those publications, and to lessen the security which the
community has against the abuses of the press. For this
reason, I have always considered that the laws made to re-
strain the press, though intended to check libel, have a very
obvious tendency to lessen the security against libel. What-
ever makes the trade of a newspaper precarious—whatever
exposes those who conduct it to greater hardships, to more
oppressions than the rest of their countrymen endure—
whatever singles them out from the rest of the community
as a suspected and slighted or a maltreated class, a class for
whom there is one law, one rule a conduct, there being
another for the rest of the community—tends, pro tanto, to
lessen the respectability of those who resort to that profes-
sion. Whatever makes them dependent more upon the
caprice of prosecutots, whether public or private—whatever
exposes them more than the rest of their fellow-subjects to
penal visitations of courts and magistrates in general—has
a direct tendency to lessen the respectability of the profes-
sion and of those who engage in it. In my time there have
been two remarkable instances of injurious proceedings in
this respect, the one by the law, the other by the practice
of judges. I allude, first, to the making a conviction for a
second offence (which was one of the Six Acts of 1819)
punishable by banishment, though that has never been put
in force ; and I allude, next, to the tendency which has
been observed on the part of several judges (I am sorry to
say it, but lam bound to give my opinion)---a tendency to
consider that the editors of newspapers are not entitled to
protection when they complain of injuries to their character
in the same measure in which the rest of the community are
entitled. I cannot conceive any course more effectual to
destroy the respectability of a class of men than that a judge,
when summing up to a jury on the trial of a cause in which
the individuals of that profession complain of injury to their
character by libel or slander, should treat them as though
they were persons who had no right to complain of
slander, who had no character to lose, and should direct
the jury not to regard the character of those individuals
as the subject of judicial redress. When I was at the
bar, I remember a case of the editor of a newspaper pro-
secuting another editor for one of the foulest libels I ever
read, and the learned judge who tried the cause, and who is
now no more, said it was only the editor of a newspaper who
had been libelled, and therefore he did not think it a case

for conviction, though it would have been quite an unde-
fended cause, and the conviction a matter of course, if any
other person had been the prosecutor. There was an ac
quittal accordingly ; just as if a newspaper editor may be
with impunity slandered by any one who chooses. I can-
not imagine any, principle more directly tending to lower
r ; a
ing by the press the newspaper press), and to t crow a
press into the bands of persons disreputable and capable of
abusing its power by dealing in' libel, either for lucre of
gain, or to gratify private malice.
There is another thing which many persons think has a
similar tendency ; I mean the law which is peculiar to
conductors of newspapers, and forces them to furnish evi-
dence against themselves, whereas in all other cases the
party proceeding against any defendant must find the evi-
dence as he can to convict him. As to this, however, I
doubt whether the tendency is of the same kind to lower
the caste. I consider it a law which rather tends to curb
the licentiousness of the press, than to lower the character
of those conducting it ; and when I consider the immense
power it possesses, and the extreme difficulty of discovering
the persons publishing slanders, I am disposed to think
that the Act of 39th George 111., so far as it has been
acted on, is justified by principle, and does not tend to de-
grade the editors of newspapers. I incline to think that the
public has a right to some such security, and that the press
has no right to complain of it. If, indeed, the act in ques-
tion were put in force to the full extent of its provisions, I
should think it intolerable ; for the worst part of it, that
which gives a right to file a bill in equity for discovering the
author of any paragraph, is a matter on which I hardly dare
trust myself to speak ; I consider it as a part of the law,
which I am bound to respect as long as it remains unre-
pealed ; else I should consider it contrary to all principle
and to all justice. But it has never been in any instance
put in .force ; indeed I believe its existence is known to
but few. _ _

~-I
have said that I considered the provisions which re-
quire the proprietors and printers to register their names
at the Stamp-office is on the whole justifiable ; but the
case of stamps stands on a very different ground—their
effect is to depress the legal and to benefit the contraband
trader. The worst libels do not appear in respectable
newspapers. Those of the most malignant description and
profligate character appear in the unstamped publications.
I will venture to say any one of them contains more atro-
cious
I
matter in any one number than all the respectable
daily papers of London contain in one year. The num-
ber of those unstamped papers at one time was very great.
The Attorney-General of the day once showed me a list'
of, I think, 163, not one of which was stamped, and every
one of which vied with every other in all manner of atro-
cious libels. Not content with slandering authorities from
the King downwards—not content with slandering individu-
als in public stations, and with publishing personal slander
as well as political, they contained blasphemy in very great
abundance,' obscenity in considerable store, every species of
ribaldry, personal, political, and irreligious ; those worthless
men entering into a sort of profligate competition one with
the other, binding on the one hand under each other, and
all of them under the respectable prints in point of price,
and over one another in the malignity and ferocity of their
writings. Where one charged public characters with all
offences another, recommended their extirpation ; where one
maintained the lawfulness of rebellion, another maintained
the propriety of assassination. Where one held forth the
king and, his Ministers to the fury of the mob, another re-
commended a more sure and expeditious mode of dealing
with these nuisances (for they reckoned all Government
nuisances, and all governors as the executors of nuisances),
suggesting the quicker and a more effectual mode of cutting
them off in detail ; while others, not content with a single
murder, showed how easily and safely that crime might be
perpetrated which always involves the risk at least of
wholesale murder—namely, arson. Now all these publica-
tions were unstamped, and they broke the law in another
respect, for they were without the name of the printer.
There is a defect, in the act which requires the printer's
name to be printed under a penalty, for I believe it does not
prevent the printer or his servant, or newsman, from cut-
ting off the name after it has been put on. Thus all these
publications were absolutely untraceable, except those of
one or two, which appeared to invite prosecution for the
sake of increasing their sale. The others were not only all
unstamped, but were without the printer's name.
It appears quite obvious, that in these circumstances
there are but two ways of meeting this great evil ; the one
is, having recourse to the ordinary principle in all such cases
—namely, taking away impediments from the fair dealer,
from the respectable publisher, and thus removing the ad-
.
vantage which the law now gives the unfair dealer. The
fair dealer is now liable to a stamp of 3d. or 4d., which the
other escapes. The latter not only highly seasons the food
he prepares for the perverted taste of the people, with
highly flavoured ingredients, but he has also a more effec-
tual advantage-:—he undersells the fair dealer by 300 per
cent. The consequence is, that the fair trader has no sort
of chance in such a competition. It is quite clear, if you
remove the stamps, you apply the common principle of de-
stroying the smuggler, by lowering the duties. Thishas been

found quite effectual in other branches cf.-legislation. I
cannot see why it should not be made equally effectual in
this. The only other mode of meeting this great mischief is
by providing more wholesome food for the reading portien of
the people, and that happily has been attempted, and,at-
tempted with great success. I believe I speak in the pre-
sence of some colleagues of mine of the Society of Useful
Knowledge, who could inform the committee more in de-
tail ; but I think the Penny Magazine destroyed a great
number of those wicked publications, some of the most ob-
noxious of them, in three or four weeks after it was begun ;
the most noxious of all perhaps were not put down, for the
same profligate class of readers do not find harmless matter
equally palatable ; but the great bulk of readers prefer this
publication, circulating 200,000, sold for l d., containing ar-
ticles of great value (for, regard being had to its value, it is
about one-fourth part of the price of the common penny
unstamped paper). If these two means were adopted to-
gether—that is, increasing the number and variety of inno-
cent and useful publications, and taking off the tax, which
prevents competition, and thus provide more good cheap
papers for the bulk of the community—l have no doubt
the public would no lorgar have any reason to fear the
worst kinds of libel. I beg to add, that though the Penny
Magazine has been enabled to be sold so cheap, in conse-
quence of its immense numbers, and still increasing sale,
that it is a price which could not be afforded by any private
individual ; a society can afford it ; and a sale of tens
and hundreds of thousands can afford it ; but a great
many things would be very proper to be published
for which there is not a demand of above five- hundred
or one thousand ; and this is quite impossible unless
at a higher price. But the public requires papers of less
value than the Penny Magazine, and will buy them,
though of less value, and therefore not so- cheap, provided
they be sold for ld. or 2d., and also contain news. The
people wish to read the news, in which they take an inte-
rest, and in which it is fit they should take an interest. In
public affairs they are nearly concerned, and it is both their
right and their duty to attend much to public affairs. lam
of opinion that a sound system of government requires the
people to read and inform themselves upon political sub-
jects, else they are the prey of every quack', every impos-
tor, and every agitator who may practise his trade in the
country. If they do not read—if they do not learn—if
they do not digest, by discussion and 'reflection, what they
have read and learned—if they do not thus qualify them-
selves to.form opinions for themselves, other men will form
opinions for them, not according to truth and to the inte-
rests of the people, but according to their own individual
and selfish interests, which may, and most probably will, be
contrary to that of the people at large. The best security
for a Government like this, for the Legislature, for the
Crown, and generally for the public peace and public mo-
rals, is, that the whole community should be well informed
upon its political as well as its other interests ; and it can
be well informed only by having access to wholesome,.
sound, and impartial publications. Therefore they will and
ought to read the news of the day, political discussions,
political events, the debates of their representatives in Par-
liament, and of the other House of Parliament ; and on
not one of these heads can any paper be published, daily or
weekly, Without coming under the stamp,law ; consequently
the people at large are excluded, by the dear form in which-
alone the respectable publishers can afford it, while they pay
the duty. They can only have it in a cheap form by pur-
chasing of publishers of another description; who break the
revenue law by paying for no stamps, and also break all
other laws by the matter they publish. If
_instead of news-
papers being sold for 63. or 1 s., they could be sold for I d.,
I have no manner of doubt there would immediately follow
the greatest possible improvement in the tone and temper
of the political information of the people, and therefore of
the political character and conduct of the people. It is my
decided and deliberate opinion, from very long and anxious
consideration, that the danger is not of the people learning
too much, but knowing too little. It is no longer a ques-
tion whether they shall read or no ; it is no longer a ques-
tion whether they shall be instructed or not; it is no-longer
a question whether they shall be politicians, and take part in
the discussions of their interests, or not ; that is decided long
and long ago: The only question to answer and the only
problem to, solve is, how they shall read in the best man-
ner ; how they shall be instructed politically, and have poli-
tical habits formed the most safe for the constitution of the
country, and the best for their own interests. I can devise
no other means than making that accessible at .a cheap rate
which_at,. present they must have at a rate they cannot
afford, -withoutba-vmg'ic-oau db wrrr-
give it them both cheap and wholesome.
Would, in your Lordship's opinion, increasing the seve-
rity of the law against unstamped periodical works have a
tendency to suppress them ?—I think, if it had a tendency
at all, it would be a contrary tendency ; I think it would
be brutum fuhnen if it were made a capital felony, as I have
seen it not very wisely proposed in some quarters ; no jury
would convict at all. You cannot discover them, and they
will never convict them.

Has it fallen under your Lordship's observation, whether
taking off the stamps from newspapers' would seriously in-
jure the revenue ?—That is undoubtedly the great diffi-
culty, and I have reason to think that is one of the two
only difficulties which prevent the measure from being
adopted ; the other is the apprehension, that when this
impediment is removed, there will spring up an unlimited
increase of penny publications of a profligate description,
on political and religious subjects. My opinion decidedly
is, that no such consequences would ensue ; a great num-
ber would spring up, and a great number would speedily
fall. An establised newspaper has a great advantage over
the new corner ; the Morning Chronicle or the Times, the
Morning Herald or the Morning Post, coming down to
3d. would have infinite advantages over any other ; they
have possession of the field ; the proprietors are men of
credit, and I am sure they are actuated by a feeling too
liberal, to wish to put forward their claims to anything like
monopoly. But, in the next place, though a great num-
ber of new papers would arise, I cannot conceive that
more libellous, blasphemous, or obscene publications would
or could arise than exist at present ; for those publications
have already been established, and the tendency of the
change could only be to raise a competition against those
publications—that is, the competition of respectable writers.
At present, I should say, those publications have a better
chance than they could under a law abolishing the stamp ;
for at present they have the means of excluding, by their
lawless habits, respectable men from all competition with
them ; they have therefore the benefit of the stamp ; the
others do not wish to run the risk of a breach of the reve-
nue laws, and therefore abstain from that competition ; so
that the stamp operates to narrow the competition, and so
give the lawless trader a monopoly in the market of blas-
phemy, treason, and ribaldry. I hold it to be as clear a
proposition as any in finance,, that if you abolish the stamp
on newspapers, instead of increasinc, the facility to set up
libellous publications, you greatly lessen it, by increasing
the number of good publications ; and by destroying the
monopoly in the hands of reckless men, who neither mind
the old law of the land, nor a breach of the stamp laws.
Then, the other observation to which my attention is di-

rected is a very material one. I cannot give so decided an
answer to that—namely, the injury to the revenue ; but
after much attention, my opinion is, that there would be
no very material injury to the revenue. In the first place,
there would be a great increase of publications, that must
of course increase the amount of the excise on paper ; but
that which is at present a great injury to commerce, the
expense of advertisements, would be greatly diminished ;
for the increased number of papers would tend, beyond all
question, to diminish the price of advertising. No news-
paper at present can avoid exacting, and according to the

amount of the circulation of these great London
_publica-
tions they do exact, large sums for inserting advertisements.
The stamp is now only ls. 6d. ; kis not, consequently, this
tax which obstructs advertisers ; but if you take a para-
graph to a well-circulated newspaper, they make their own
bargain ; they take a couple of guineas for an advertise-
ment of one size, and a guinea or half-a-guinea for a very
small advertisement. two doubt taking away the stamp
may perhaps not be 'very beneficial to those great news-
papers, but I think they would gain in other ways as much
as they lost in this ; and at any rate I must look to the in-
terest of the consumer, and not of the grower. In Ame-
rica, where no stamp exists, the proportion of the news-
papers to the population is twenty or thirty to one more
than in this country ; and in the Norman islands in this
Channel, where they have no stamp, it is fifteen to one.
We should have papers in something of that proportion ; I
think that would tend to diminish the expense of adver-
tisements, and therefore greatly increase the revenue de-
rived from thence ; nobody will grudge the is. 6d. expense
to Government. -

Have not those persons who have had the monopoly of
the newspaper circulation, who have circulated their papers
without stamps, all faded, while those who have circulated
their paper with stamps, have almost all succeeded ?—I be-
lieve so ; lam happy to think that is the case. I found
that of the great number I have referred to, in six months
there were not more than a very few ; but then I must say
this in fairness, that where one goes down another rises
up ; for the thing which prevents such a newspaper going
on is the Stamp-office account, which is heavy, being a

ee.........,,..7..21_,D. ri,,,::;.;,.
!-_,,,,a__,_L,
ready-money account, and they are not able to meek.: P.,,,4;-'4:,1-i.'
far as the carrying it on depends upon their own ex _
~..- 'ne,.
they can get on, but the Stamp-office exacts readywiplft.,'-.
4.-
rigorously, They have no doubt' a ready-money trade to !
eiir
meet that ; but then they buy a greater number of stamps
than they can sell they may buy 500 stamps and sell 250
papers, and that is a dead loss ; therefore those persons
are constantly starting new papers, who have no stamps to
burden them. I have seen a great number of these papers
officially ; as I have sometimes been asked whether they
ought not to be proceeded against, and the first thing • I
look at is the number, whether it is No. 50 or N 0.10,000 ;
but they seldom come to 100 ; they are generally under
50 ; and hence it follows, as they are weekly publications,
that they have not often lasted out the year.. .
There is a disregard of property by these persons, who
are in the nature of smugglers F—They are persons almost
' as reckless of their own interests as of the rights of others.
Your Lordship has had some experience of the state of
mind of the labouring classes of the people of England.
Supposing good matter, wholsesome matter, put before the
people and at the same price, and no lower and no higher
than bad matter—blasphemy,' obscenity, and so forth—
does your Lordship's knowledge of the education and state
of mind of the people enable you to say which they would
prefer ?--I have not a doubt about it. It is in vain to say
that some persons would prefer obscene matter, and some
ribaldry, and some blasphemy ; but it would be an insigni-
cant portion of the whole country. The bulk, who are in-
nocently and morally disposed, are more and less respect-
able, and would be ashamed to bring this trash to their
cottages where their wives and children are ; nay, I believe
that they would not desire to read it themselves. I have
had much intercourse with the people of all ranks, from the
lowest to the middle ranks ; I never entertained the least
fear of them, even when most excited ; I never have known
things in a state in which I had any fear of the people,
either of their morals or their loyalty, or their peaceable
disposition, which is natural to Englishmen ; and those only
can be afraid of them who, unfortunately for both parties,
are exceedingly ignorant of the people. Those who know
them as much as I do must know that they arc very much
.the reverse of an object of dread, or distrust, or suspicion ;
that they are generally morally and peaceably dispoSed, and
I should say very -much disposed to respect and submit to
those above them. Even the trades' unions do not offer to
my mind any material exception ; for I believe they have
in many cases had grievances to complain of, -and that they
have erred in not taking the right way to get redress, by
trusting to :selfish, dishonest leaders, and by being imper-
fectly informed upon their own interests. I state my opi-
nion as the result of a large practical experience, having
had an intimate knowledge of the people in every way, and
the more I have known the less apprehension I have had
about them. I have therefore not a doubt in answering
the question in the affirmative. I must also add, that lam
quite certain, if the stamp were taken away, where we cir-
culate useful information to the extent of thousands, we
should circulate useful information to the extent of mil-
lions ; for we have been trying to get useful publications
not only into parts of the country where men are gregarious
—the manufacturing districts, in which they naturally and
easily read ; but into farm-houses and cottages, where the
ca%eis different. The great difficulty is to get the peasants
to read—first, because they do not work together ; and
next, because people working in the open air are sleepy
when they come home ; but in long winter nights, when
they are not so hard worked, and have much more spare
time, it is particularly desirable that -they should not have
recourse to beer-shops or to bad publications. It would be
of great advantage if we could furnish them with publica-
tions that have a tendency to make men
*good members of
society, rather than those which are now propagated, and
are read by great numbers, teaching them that the most infa-
mous of characters'—a man, for instance, who is about to
be executed for. the foulest murder—from the moment he
becomes converted to some particular spiritual doctrine, is
safe from retribution in another world. I cannot conceive
a more pernicious doctrine, and all which is said about ab-
solution in the Catholic ChurCh is not one whit worse even
in its abuse, and I know it is very much abused. Those
publications which are in farm-houses, to my knowledge, for
want of better, teach that if a man commits murder,-and
will only afterwards become a fanatic, he is in acceptance
with Heaven, and his murder forgiven ! If a man have in his
cottage, at a cheap rate, accounts of the debates, which they
look to with great interest, and which it is their duty as
well as their interest to read ; the proceedings in courts of
justice, which they also are delighted with reading ; if, in
addition to these departments, commonly called 'the news
of the day, we could circulate four pages more, which could
all be done for a penny without this pernicious stamp duty,
we might give the cottager for one penny a newspaper with
wholesome general information, which might be of use to
him in various ways, besides giving him all the intelligence
of the week. lam quite certain that this would be the
effect of repealing the stamp.
As to indicting publications, your Lordship is aware that
the experiment of forbearance has been successful as it re-
spects Carlisle ?—I formerly said in the House of Com-
mons that I thought if he ceased to be prosecuted he would
cease to be patronized or read ; and lam told-he has given
Th

ere is one thing I have omitted to state in the former
part of my evidence. I think there is a great defect in the
law of libel as it present exists. Supposing it to be right
that evidence should be furnished by the entry in the Stamp-
office, which, upon the whole, I think it is, this provision
should
sf not
Stamp-office
a hnpbfaov
atrocious
os:sufferedeeeieotnou sfi find
thisti .dbo
betblahepue
pp evadedeonn_i
,as
registered
cpb,yrasrpoaune ttrei
ownerenr
cog;orlui
proprietorieper
sia i
samos lab.nedeaoif
tms
ot
artaghwee-s.
he finds it is a woman of the town, or a man living, in the
Fleet, or a debtor who has long been a prisoner in the King's
Bench ; he is told " You cannot get your 504 which you
have recovered, nor even the costs which you have been
put to ; you can have no such reparation as the law has
given you." The injured man says to his slanderer,
" Then of course you will not publish this libel again ?"--
" On the contrary,' say they, " we shall publish it every
Sunday for the next half year ;" and he has no remedy.
The same printing press will publish the libel again and
again ; for which he has no redress, unless he can get strict
legal evidence against the printer, although the same print-
ing press keeps vomiting forth the same slander week after
week. It has often been suggested that some means might
be taken, after a conviction, to give a security to the per-
son libelled over the printing press which issued that pub=
lication. Ido not give this as that on which I have made
up my mind ; but I should only submit to you the pro-
priety of making further inquiries into the matter.
Could your Lordship furnish the committse with any
information upon the subject of blasphemous libels ?—I
really think it would be a difficult thing to alter the law
upon this head, because the feelings of the public in the
respectable classes are so strong upon it that if you were to
repeal the law of blasphemy, they would all say you were
encouraging the offence, and, to a certain degree, it might
have that effect for the moment ; but I am by no means
certain that it would in the long run ; on the contrary, I
am of opinion the law is totally useless ; it does not prevent
a single person from blaspheming. I believe that a man
who has this disposition is not a rational being—not a man
to be reasoned with—and that no fear of punishment will
prevent him from indulging his senseless propensity.
Does your Lordship consider that any alteration of the
law could be safely adopted for the purpose of protecting
those innocently concerned in circulating papers which may
happen to contain libellous matter ?---I am sure something
of that kind ought to be done. It is at present a great
grievance. The case of an attorney who lately brought an
action against a newspaper is very remarkable. In one
instance, indeed, lie has been misrepresented and was the
injured party. He obtained a verdict for a libel, and found
when he looked for payment, that he had a man of straw
to deal with, and he then required that the libel should'not
be republished ; but the editor set up a man with a placard
to stand in the street, containing the slander in great let-
ters, and indemnified the person so standing with the pla-
card. It is quite clear that in this instance the plaintiff
was the ill-used man ; but in the other cases he was the
oppressor, and the law enabled him to work the wrong. A
great number of industrious, hard-working persons, who had
never read the libel, and earned a very scanty livelihood by
carrying about wet newspapers on their arm, which they
never bad seen a word of, were served with notice of an ac-
tion for libel ! I think something should be done to pre-
vent so grievous an abuse.
Is it your Lordship's opinion that the costs should de-
pend on the amount of the damages awarded ?—To a great
degree I think they ought. It is so in personal slander,
and I do not see why it should not be so in libel. The poor
man who sells the paper has no more to do with it than the
two-penny postman who delivers to me every day many
letters of the most slanderous nature—nay, who sometimes
delivers me letters with abuse bn the outside. But the in-
demnity from costs is insufficient ; it should be a freedom
from action altogether. •
There are many cases at present where a man getting a
have
on
the of
verdict pays the costs ?—I am certain it would be. a very
excellent thing to give the courts of common la something
of
question
tlmtabsoluotfecodsistes.retiTonhvchoisetlsi
a.ctoulacts,, ofb yeqth statuteu y
Gloucester and other statutes, are bound, generally
speaking, by the event ; the costs follow the event. I have
often thought that in many other actions, as well as actions
for slander and assault, it would be better if they had a
greater discretion in costs, and that many might listen to
the recommendation of juries ; and thus the judge and jury
together award, for instance, a shilling damages, but with-
bout
as costs ; or, giving costs, might decide that they should
n Lordshipcas
eo f
arresti is aw aLe tlhaa tp discretion t ishi
se sctoaubnl itsrhy t
ia
e dbyt
is t
foundaute
Your
a very
inconvenient between y and client.
circumstance. The jury say,
statute
" If we find so Much, how will it be with the costs ;" the

,

judge says, You have nothing to do with the-costs." My
opinion is, that were I sitting at nisi prius I should say,
you have to do with the costs; and the present Lord Chief
Justice of the King's Bench, I believe, follows that rule. I
beg to say that I shall have great pleasure in giving any
further information which it may be in my power on so im-
portant a subject to this -committee. Whether I may be
enabled •to afford any aid to the committee, or not, at all
• events (I say it in reference to the kind expressions of the
chairman on my coming in), it affords me the greatest
pleasure to testify my most unfeigned and profound re-
spect for the representatives of the people, than whom I
verily believe there never was a more virtuous or a more
enlightened assembly in the world.—Adjourned.
(TO BE CONTINCED.)