The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-11 00:00:00

(Rear, hear.) But the conduct of the Roman Catholics
in this matter was a proof of the value which they
placed upon titles Did they think they would have run the
lima creating all the feeling that had been recently exhi-
Leted by the country if they did not feel that titles conferred
211 their bishops' were of permanent value ? (Hear, hear.)
If this assumption of titles were not opposed, it would be
Made the starting point for fresh aggression. So much, then,
" regarded the first question. Now with respect to the se-
en
th"er; was it compatible with the rights of the Crown that
e shouldbe bishops having titles in connexion with the
, • Church of Rome? Now he would let Dr. Wiseman answer
-• this question himself. He said it was necessary, in order
• at the hierarchy should have synodical action. He would
rtsnaY anything on that subject, as his Noble Friend (Lord
tictsurcl, Russell) had already well described, when referring to
eQ3'nod of Thurles, what was meant by synodical action.
ut blr. Wiseman said the hierarchy was necessary to carry
ant the canon law. Now, had the House any idea of what
Iricln law was? Let Mr. Hallam speak on this subject. In
a Middle Ages" he says,—
" The superiority of the ecclesiastical over the temporal
says,—
eve may be considered a sort of key-note, which regulates
Tethat pha.ssage in the canon law. It is expressly declared
at au jeets owe no allegiance to an excommunicated sove-
t*,,gti.” He adds these citations :—" The laws of kings have
tint Pre-eminence over ecclesiastical laws, but are subordi-
*e to them. The statute law of laymen does not extend
I° churches, or to ecclesiastical persons, or to their goods to
their rejdice."
Palau of Sardinia, referred to by his Noble Friend
ord J. Russell), illustrated the effect of this principle of
tenon law. Again the historian says
o: Whatever decrees of princes are found injurious to the
n'
rests of the Church, are declared to be of no authority
hatev es.
• while a sovereign remains excommunicated his sub-
etts
S-4st/w.e, hims no allegiance : and if he do not submit him-
Bel
, hi'grn,Vie Church, his subjects are absolved from all fealty
And
ere disadvantageous
oaths the Decretal of Gregory states,—" Oaths that
Lusadvantageous to the interests of the Church are not to
Vocensidered as oaths, but rather as perjuries."
wa:,l‘, let them suppose that their Sovereign had acted to-
If Rome as the Pope had acted towards this country.
and if had created a Bishop of Civita Vecchia—of Altona ;
tsis," she had gone farther. and had divided Rome into dis-
and nominated a bishop of one of these districts, what
-teed
tee "are been the consequence? Why, that Rome and
dated of the Courts of foreign nations, would have inun-
opethis Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) with protocols,
rainining of the aggression.—(Hear, hear.) . He should
tegll- t s dni7 a
cu
such aggre as the subect thst
toti ussion ; fbrssion no otherhad sectbeen of religionists inpf this
that"lY would dare to assume territorial titles in the manner
•th
—e Roman Catholic hierarchy had lately done. There
ssOnether point in this question, one of vital importance,
whle,h he considered necessary to be introduced, as the
so:h'ekquestion could not be well discussed without bringing
$a before the notice of the House. He would ask the
Was there nothing within themselves that tended to
• Ovid'
this attack? Should they not examine if there was
the haesintthing among themselves to invite this division on
be ssrft of the Roman Catholic Church, which something
tess`'‘ assured tended to invite such attacks in an increased
byre or? He would intrude on the attention of the House
tans--;`"ing the words of a person of very great impor-
tieC in this business—not the words of a low church-
- or the words of a man of bitterness—but the words
fon* Personage of great authority, which ran to the
ae °Wing effect, as spoken by Dr. Wiseman:—" It may
, %At pecessary to state my reason for imagining
.ilehss; see an approximation, not merely towards
ststs,nal Catholic practices and doctrines, but towards
ress'ic union. . . . . It seems to me impossible to
the works of the Oxford divines, and especially to
them chronologically, without discovering a daily
°acil towards our holy church, both in doctrine and
eta, 'oboe feeling. Our saints, our Popes, have become
bur them hy little and little; our rites and ceremonies,
far °:ices, nay, our very rubrics, are precious in their eyes;
ii.,.! beyond many of us consider them ; our monastic
beeoss-ettens, our charitable and educational provisions have
-4e More and more objects with them of earnest study.
lice; ' • Their admiration of our institutions and prac-
%al' sand their regret at having lost them, manifestly spring
' The flue value which they set on everything Catholic. That
10 !clings which have been expressed in favour of a return
essaiity
by the Anglican Church, are every day widely
"adi •
tentstent ng, and deeply sinking, no one can doubt. Those.
have a silent echo in hundreds of sympathising
notes • . . . There are many evidences (which it
• keys •ee hardly proper to detail) that Catholic feelings
sem' Penetrated deeper into society than at first one would
itrf erch,t•L_ Whole parishes have received the leaven, and it
lieetees—lcnling, and places where it might least be ex-
to have received it in more secret and
1113111 -eri stein
the nue ways By two ways the popula-
ttthief this country would be worked upon (through the
disOlialled Church) for its moral improvement—the rural
°f tints through parochial influence, the denser population
i•
ostitewns or manufacturing districts through monastic
oopaiutiess. Experience has now shown that the country
gees Lit,ien are ready to receive, without murmuring, in-
* Oafess"4ll pleasure, the Catholic views propounded from
regsr, and indeed, even more, when taught through
Ilieh a; Parochial instruction." Such are the words of
atassc.),Las, Bishop of Melipotamus. The same person after-
. talet' added, that if there was any one in the country ade-
Saa ! hold out a hope for the Roman Catholic Church,
resh 51t0euld it assume a bold front, he felt assured that
• aseJ in this kingdom would embrace that religion ere
ester Months elapsed. He (Lord Ashley) could not avoid
, lalastes.',ing his coincidence of opinion on that point, particu-
estres'nen he was aware that no less than 1,800 ecclesi-
Asloel of the Established Church signed a document
%kill denied the royal supremacy. He asked, was not
erno•an Act as this sufficient to prove to the Court
Nish that there was a sympathy for the Church of Rome,
ties nee
when auricular confession and other doctrines
eitlyeerecnonies of that church were practised by persona not
INsPrefeasing the Church of England doctrines, but by
44,2 „, Who were actually officiating ministers of that
tsi eS*-1, When such proceedings were designated as his •
tia,°-I°3,' the Bishop of London, he considered that it was
theistislit and the duty of the House to speak up against
'noel; If these things were allowed to continue there
tho arise, and at nos d
time, a collision between
Sot ecclesiastics and the laity, the issue of which could
440 e doubtful to any reflecting mind.—(Loud cries of
theirars; hear.") He asserted, nevertheless, that the laity loved
tele; `-hurch, its doctrine, its discipline, its parochial syss
tales that they desired to maintain its orders of bishop,
‘l.43,tiiner, andydeacon, deacon, in all their efficiency and all their
ie eolY ; but they would maintain it in its purity, and not
asees4suPtion.—(Cheers.) To obtain this end, they would,
ore,wA's blessing, incur every hazard, try every &terns-
' eeleaand shrink from no consequence whatever, in their
Ilearesv"rs to bring back the Church that they love still
keti- and nearer to the standard of the glorious Refor-
' 4°,nss
giaees • GRATTAN said as to the charge of divided elle-
' Vol) Lt had been already entirely repudiated. This aggre-
k.erci-ss3 i; was called, had been practised before. The Noble
;tit he f, not forget that this country had been parcelled
`„riestof,'n There were, first, four districts andlour vicars-
:4le ,f, and they were subsequently increased to eight by
ilesiat'",.e Power and by a letter of similar import. What
;beer ,sitd been offered to her Majesty ? Did not her Majesty
and w'uat a great portion of her subjects were Catholics,
iereetaere not governed by her as far as their spiritual in-
!heir. were concerned? English Protestants must make up
Iretst,eillninds_so live in peaco with their Roman Catholic
• he conduct of the Government was the more
teset cable after the course which they had pursued with
The etillne to the Roman Catholic bishops in the colonies.
entniuurable Member then proceeded to comment upon
sn:hai-eiees of Mr. Henry Drummond on Friday night.
brs","e Honourable Member had stated with regard
s'elleo `Mien was 'totally and entirely a mistake. Dr .
le,„„iwas born in his (Mr. Grattan's) county. He was
es ill'. Meath man ; and he had met him both abroad
tad, es nine, and a more erroneous conception of Dr. Cullen
tet, tos the Court of Rome, and of the difference cunningly
bad
by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Ashley)
'ad ris'e the Court of Rome and the Church of Rome, he
coesidever hea in his life. In opposing the measure under
' ist,t Issesraiien lie was defending the cause of his countrymen
t"ghteSes-, not the Roman Catholics in particular, but the
• ierebe7snvery honest Irishman. He called upon the Irish
tsaiests-7' then, to look to themselves that night; and if her
• •T 8 kinisters acted in opposition to Irish wishes upon
the 1 naent •
lash question—upon the Lord-Lieutenancy,,, andit
h John upon
-(7(171 ses; 4114(1ik
urpt e
ws Ttlto
tjhoeinn him iann saying,f "Down
hoew
cn
ouwntry !"
gee°„h' Ind laughter.) Her Majesty had been spoken of
• ,„/ tse`n the Grace of God." Yes, and she was Queen
the graeo r
Gape,° the God ; but not alone by tbat—it was. also by
as et people ; and that was as good a title, per-
' st greet `ue grace of God.—(Oh, oh.) Of much use was
st,Ncloro °'Ged to James 11., when he was driven from his
IsmtYlis,h, oh.) For his own part, he discharged his
tslitt th-e'rneing the Bill, and 1:e had only to trust
(4.,14811,0 would not lead to discord, or the revival o f
41e. 1yp.",f41 animosities which he apprehended.
cPr. c,,....;;,umoisTD explained.
,f,.cretion-s`suLLY said that the question now under the con-
-1;lea of iscn the House had been discussed in all the coun-
,,M beers"l-.°Pc, and in every one of them the same answer
►nelgiven—the same determination had been come to
'ernes, h(t)uat the power of Rome must be restricted within
pfdineosenda - that that power, in its unrestricted state,
ice"udotent with the free government and the inde-
h kr. is. hose respective states.
014Zre the /1000 D would much rather. he had seen the Bill
had of the previous to his having entered upon any.
ki been kisincussion. But some of the principles which
Ilisteriaa) s,,l"lted, more particularly on his own (the
ti variance) side Of the House, seemed to him so entirely
ght e With .
t44loolnanbcilemes the views which ought to lead them to a
la remain -41 on the subject that he felt it impossible
On Bii
`• ken% Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) and the
for Manchester (Mr. Bright), between whom
tha'a'suat oneunsn_l!d thought.there.syas at least perfect accord
on t,7 gentietasPenn.t of their political creed—he. had heard
sa. Lie ettbie en with surprise say that the opinion expressed
he laivoc!,ct throughout the whole country in so plain and
es,us'ed-roul'; manner—in a manner more decided than any
~nlbered since the Reform Bill—was to weigh for
bi atone
234511Y,n1ure, that those who had expressed their_
tuanould be stigmatised with the charge of
tfra'4%l °fat ter. 'Wood) had always wished and still
iec bf s". suffrage should be, largely extended—the
nto seen .
ato must be, in a great measure, to bring public
• ea--mite* '
-. is-ear more fully upon the questions discussed in this
mite, the if th
Ine'eXY had ey were to be told by lion. Members, be-
aome.particular opinions of their own, that
ttetheaghtllietitPublic opinion of the country should be set at
, ea_ eemed strange that those Hon. Members should at
liet he tune be the advocates of the extension of the suffrage.
tilki:aliculd show that there had been no feeling of bigotry
• aOt 4latter. There had been grea earnestness -he did
tikataeak of individual displays of bigotry or individual
‘,7:4, but of the resolutions which had been passed and
gat generally
_which had been expressed at the public
7 the Iligh.h e resolutions had in the main redounded to
• Vtints Mous, good sense, and sound judgment a the
ted tY , attribute all the agitation which had been ex-
, N:ble Lord's letter was attributing to the Noble
it.ll`" strir`eva p , wer than he possessed. t was called forth by
t 4Pon „%on---by the insult which they deemed had been
li4haitiereuun .luelr Sovereign. It was called forth by what was
aenouauttt:yl4,tvhait. the revival by Rome of claims
eh had long lain dormant but, qreci . to which it w s known it would endeavour to
pe'ats,ssantiquaied opinionsa sooner or later upon
t'ateitt anti'
It was, therefore, that it was re-
.. with earnestness. But earnestness was not
ta,y J noininatohtrtite:tahian indifference was liberality. It was
ror c
tCettllneuts Wiseman and those who published
was defence to tell one thing to them whilst
ho. e another think understood by all the Roman
It ells le ccurtmunit
and 'lige of s and That
were told there was nothing but
Le tune, and that had been e hoed by the Hon.
'waa !trued Member for
c
there ist a -er for Sheffield ; and they added, what
;,h
ato_p
of
menpnoatenatne name? ; Ininewhid bweaean
only
yar-apostolic and
Cis t munstweras, aandraegrecsed the same'duties there as before.
th'ere
At,eairl'SnPestolie and Archbishop of
gettiabwoutp tttlyWer...esthmai
33.
hlifference between his position as
nster. o.f. Melipotamus. and that as
As the former he had no juris-
t:a:spiritual influence wad spiritual