The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, July 25.
FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC POLICY.
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A addressed their Lordships,
but in consequence of the Noble Lord dropping his voice at
the conclusion of his sentences, scarcely a single one that was
perfect reached us. We understood him to say, that he would
take this opportunity of addressing a few observations to the
Noble Lords opposite, and of shortly putting questions to them,
with the view of getting a clear and distinct statement as to the
principles on which his Majesty's Ministers intended to pro-
ceed with respect to our foreign and domestic policy. When
he looked to the situation in which the country now stood, he
would say, with reference to the measure of reform in
Parliament, that there never was a period of the country
when the passing of such a measure was calculated to be more
injurious, or when it were less called for by the state of the
country. Allusions had been made to him, and his friends
having been actuated by party motives in their opposition to
some of the measures which had been introduced by the Noble
Lords opposite ; but he must take this opportunity of stating,
that such charges were, in his opinion, never more unjustly
founded. For himself, he could put his hand on his heart
and say that he had never given a vote in a bond of union,
that could be characterised as a systematic union formed for
mere party purposes. He thought himself bound to make
this reply to an allusion that had been made by the Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack. He could assure that Noble
and Learned Lord, that however much he differed from the
principles of the Noble Lords on the opposite benches in op-
posing their measures, he had not been actuated by party feel-
ing : his votes had been entirely the result of his conscientious
desire to discharge his duty to the best of Isis ability
for the advantage of the country. He felt that this
country was standing in a situation of danger, which,
if it ever was equalled, was never supassed ;
and he certainly wished not to increase the diffi-
culties. The balance of power had been completely destroyed.
As regarded our foreign policy, he would ask, could any man
look at that without great apprehensions ? He need only refer to
the course we had pursued towards Spain and Portugal. In
Portugal he would maintain, whatever the present appearances
to the contrary, the contest was only suspended. It would be
renewed whenever the legitimate owner of that Throne, from
which he had been driven, re-appeared. Holland was only
waiting an opportunity to resent the insults offered to her by
this country. Then they were told that as a consequence of
the policy of his Majesty's Ministers, there existed a firm bond
of union between this country and France. He begged to
ask whether we had entered into any compact with France by
which we had bound ourselves to interfere in the affairs of
Spain ? He had read in the newspapers that some vessels
sent out with arms in the service of Don Carlos had been
stopped ; he wished to ask whether this was the case ? And
if we had entered into such a compact with France as he had
alluded to, pledging us to maintain the rights of the Regent
of Spain, it was most important that the country should know
whether, by that compact, we were bound to the extent of
going to war in support of those rights should an occasion
arise? He called upon the Noble Viscount to say whether he
was determined to uphold the institutions of Church and State
in despite of any clamour which might be raised against them;
and whether in particular he was determined not to sanction
the spoliation of the property of the Irish Church. The Noble
Earl concluded with repeating some of his observations with
respect to the non-interference system, which he contended
Government ought rigidly to have acted upon.
Viscount MELBOURNE said, that independently of the
inopportuneness of the occasions elected by the Noble Earl,
he should have some difficulty in answering him, for although
he had set out with saying that he was only going to put two
short questions, he had occupied half an hour in general repro-
bation of Government, without putting any definite question at
last. The Noble Earl appeared to think that the new Govern-
ment, as he now called it, should give an exposition of its
opinions on the various points of foreign and domestic policy,
and an intimation as to what they intended to do ; the Noble
Earl did not seem to call to mind the peculiar formation
of this Government—which, in point of fact, was not a new,
but merely a re-constructed one—and that all the members of
it had before been in office together. And this fact would suffi-
ciently guarantee that the great objects which the late Cabinet
had in view would be followed up with certainly not less zeal by the
Administration as now constituted. That Government had now
been in existence for more than three years, and in that space
of time had regulated their conduct with the most anxious de-
sire to keep the nation in peace, and to promote prosperity in
every possible way, and the present Cabinet would not be
found wanting in the warmest zeal and exertion to follow out
the good work to its fullest extent. No act, whether relating
to foreign or domestic policy, had been determined upon with-
out the closest and most disinterested attention to the circum-
stances of the case, and he believed that it would not be de-
nied by unprejudiced persons, that their policy, both foreign
and domestic, had been attended with results most beneficial
to the nation.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord said that in-
sinuations had been thrown out by Noblemen on the Ministe-
rial nide of the House, that Nobleman on the other side of the
House had opposed Ministers merely from factious motives ;
he (Lord Melbourne) was not aware that such insinuations
had been thrown out ; he could simply say for himself, that he
had never cast such imputations on any Noble Lord. The
Noble Earl had taken credit to himself for the courtesy he
said he had shown in giving notice of his intention to bring
forward this question. The motion was not in itself very re-
gular ; but, independently of that, it was so vague and indefi-
nite, that Ministers would have been very little the more pre-
pared with their defence, if such were necessary, against the
accusations to be made by the Noble Lord, for he had omitted
to describe in what peculiar part of their policy he meant to
assault them ; whether it were to be as to their continental
policy, financial policy, ecclesiastical policy, or whatever it
might be. As to the continental policy pursued by Govern-
ment, it had been adopted from a well-considered and sincere
desire to maintain the peace of Europe. No one denied that
non-interference should be the system pursued by this
country as a general rule, but cases sometimes occurred
which rendered a departure from this rule indispensable.
With reference to domestic policy, he should think it his
duty, while upholding the institutions of the State to
carry into effect such real and practical reformation as
were necessary and called for, and sanctioned by the
majority of the well-regulated and respectable part of the
community. If the Nobl• Earl wished to have any in-
formation on any particular point, let him move for it in
the regular way, and it should be given ; if he wished to pass
a vote of censure on Ministers, let him submit it in the usual
form, and Ministers would defend themselves as well as they
could. If the Noble Lord wished to propose any plan of his
own, let him do so in a specific way, and Ministers would give
their best attention to it.
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A said, that neither he nor the
country would be satisfied with the Noble Viscount's explana-
tion. It was absurd to say the present was not a new Ministry,
for it had been expressly stated in both Houses, the other day,
that " Lord Grey's Government was at an end, and a new one
in course of formation."

The Earl of RADNOR rose to order. The Noble Earl
had set out with saying he only wished to put a question or
two ; he had put two questions in a very lengthy speech, and
had gained his answer ; yet he had now got up again to ad-
dress the House on the same subject, though a subject of very
great importance was waiting the consideration of their
Lordships.
The Marquis of LOND 0 NDE RRY wished to ask whether
it was by the Noble Viscount's orders that certain vessels which
had been armed, and were about to be forwarded to Spain, had
been arrested ?
Viscount MELBOURNE said, as we understood, that he
did not know, as a matter of fact, that the circumstance men-
tioned by the Noble Marquis had really occurred.
POOR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
Clauses 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24 were agreed to, with a few
verbal amendments.

On clause 25 being proposed,
Lord KENYON objected to the arbitrary power given to
the Commissioners, of consolidating parishes, as there were
many cases in which there were parishes well regulated, and
with a small amount of poor-rate, and it would be a hard case
for such a parish to be mixed up with a parish where the rates

The LORD CHANCELLOR was not surprised that the
Noble Baron who had expressed himself as opposed to the
fundamental principle of the Bill, should propose this amend-
ment, as he called it. It was, however, anything but an
amendment, for it would have the effect of crippling the Bill
in one of its most material features, and, in a great measure,
of preventing that change, by which it was intended to re-
turn to the old and salutary system, which taught every man
to depend on his own industry—on his own resources—to
despise and hate as much to be a pauper at all as to be a
pauper receiving relief in a workhouse.—( Hear, hear.) It
was generally found, as appeared by the report, that when
a man said he could not find work, the reason was,
he had not made the experiment ; for it was almost invariably
found, that after being in the workhouse a little time, labourers
got out, and contrived to find work elsewhere. This was the
effect of the workhouse system, which was the best feature in
the Bill, for it tended to restore to the lower classes that na-
tural tone of which the mal-administration of these laws had
almost divested them. The system had been tried in several
places on a small scale with the happiest effect.
Lord FALMOUTH supported the amendment.

The Earl of RADNOIt said that it was absurd to suppose
the Commissioners would go into the country for the mere
purpose of annoying and injuring one parish by joining it to
another. There was no reason to suppose but that they would
exercise their judgment in an impartial and proper manner.
Lord FALMOUTH had no doubt they would. What he
objected to was the principle.
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A supported the clause, and
was rather surprised that the Noble Baron should oppose
it, considering how nearly he was connected with an extensive
parish (Mary-la-bonne), in which the system of setting pau-
pers hard to work and giving them necessaries instead of
money, had reduced a body of paupers demanding relief in one
week from 900 to 50.

Lord WYNFO RD said he had no objection to the union of
parishes, provided the parishes wished it, but their consent he
considered indispensable, for it would be too bad to mix up a
well-conducted and consequently prosperous parish, with an
ill-conducted one. He was ready to admit that the system of
a union of parishes for the purpose of having one workhouse
among them, would be cheap ; but many a thing was cheap
which, so far from being desirable or proper, was most inju-
rious to the country. And he was satisfied that great evil would
result from the intermixture of so many paupers together.
There could be no question that a great contamination of each
other's morals would be the consequence. Paupers ought not
to be so far removed from their friends as that they should not
be able to visit them. The workhouses under the proposed
Bill would in fact be several county prisons, in which paupers
would be separated from their friends. He thought that it
ought to be left to the paupers themselves, provided they
received the concurrence of the Magistrates, either to go to
the workhouse, or to eat their meals at their own houses, or
in the open air. That was the practice under-the old law.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—No, no.
Lord WYNFORD—Yes, yes.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM here read an extract from
an Act of Parliament, confirming the statements of Lord
Wynford.
Lord W YNFO RD—I was perfectly certain that I was right.
Several Noble Lords asked the Duke of Buckingham from
what Act of Parliament he read the extract relative to the
power of magistrates to afford relief to paupers at their own
dwelling ?
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM—From the 2d of Geo.
the Second.

Lord W YNFORD resumed—He thought that if the Com-
missioners were to have the power to unite parishes, they
ought also to have the power to dissolve such union when it
was proved to be injurious. He repeated that they ought to
possess the power of dissolving, as well as of making unions,
in order that they might be able to correct any evils which
might be found in certain cases to result from uniting parishes
together. He liked the old law, and they ought not to consent
to any innovation in that law, unless such innovation could
be proved to be an improvement. He would there support the
amendment of his Noble Friend.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that his Noble and
Learned Friend had completely misconceived the import of
the observations which he had made, and also the object
of the clause itself. The object of that clause was, to
enable the Commissioners to unite a number of parishes
together, which were too small to enable them to erect
and support workhouses for themselves. His (the Lord
Chancellor's) Noble and Learned Friend had also com-
pletely mistaken the meaning of the 2d of George the 2d.
There was no doubt that the act in question gave the magis-
trates the power of affording relief to paupers at their own
houses. There was no doubt, lie (the Lord Chancellor) re-
peated, that the magistrates had the discretionary power of
either sending paupers to the workhouses, or relieving them
at their own houses ; but we all knew how that power was
abused. Wherever the power was exercised to advantage,
that was the exception ; the abuse of the power was the rule,
and they all knew to what extent the power was abused. His
Noble and Learned Friend had endeavoured to give the work-
house a bad name, which it certainly did not deserve, and
which it certainly ought not to bear in the estimation of their
Lordships. He (the Lord Chancellor) would have no objec-
tion to the Noble and Learned Lord endeavouring to give the
workhouse a bad name in the eyes of the paupers, because that
might have the effect of impressing them with a horror of it,
and consequently prove an inducement to them to do all they
could to avoid it. But the Noble and Learned Lord ought not
to try to persuade their Lordships that it deserved this bad
name. He (Lord Wynford) had compared the workhouse un-
der the new system to a great prison. The comparison was
most unjust. There was all the difference in the world between
a workhouse and a prison. Paupers are not compelled
to enter the workhouse ; they go to it of their own free
will. It is different with regard to a prison. Men are obliged
to go into it against their wills. Paupers can leave the work-
house when they like ; but men cannot leave the prison when
they like.—( Laughter.) They are detained contrary to their
inclinations ; they cannot get out of it. He wished that the
Noble and Learned Lord would exert his eloquence, as he
had already stated, against the workhouse, in the eyes of pau-
pers, so as to present them going into it. He (the Lord
Chancellor) admitted that the present clause would lead to a
great change in the Gilbert Act ; but he was convinced it was
a great improvement on that Act. It was, in fact, a return
to the old system. With regard to the power conferred on
the Commissioners, of uniting parishes together, that power
was absolutely necessary. Unless they did possess such
power, the union would never take place to any extent. Two
or three might unite, but six or seven would not.

Lord WY— NFORD explained: A measure might be good
when partially applied, which would be very injurious if it was
to be made general. He adhered to the opinion he had al-
ready expressed, that the present measure would be produc-
tive of great evil. Wherever workhouses were erected, it
would be found that paupers would remove to some other
parish.
The Earl of FALMOUTH objected to the clause.

The Earl of WINCHIL SE A contended that the 46th of
George the Third, cap. 4. prevented magistrates from giving
relief out of the workhouse in those parishes where workhouses
existed.

Lord COLCHESTER said that in a parish in the neigh-
bourhood of the place where he resided, the overseers of the
poor had lately sent the able-bodied paupers of the parish, to
the number of eighty, to work in the fields, and found that the
great majority of them did so very willingly. He was con-
vinced, that if work were provided by the overseers for pau-
pers, there would be little necessity for workhouses.
The Earl of ST R ADBROK E objected to the powers given
to the Commissioners. They were very extraordinary powers,
as they could unite parishes without the consent of the inha-
bitants, The exercise of these powers would lead to great
dissatisfaction and dissensions, and make the condition of many
parishes worse than it is at present.
Lord EL L ENB ORO UGH would vote for the clause on
the ground of economy. He thought it necessary, with the
view of economy, that the Commissioners should have the
power of uniting parishes ; but he thought that aged and in-
firm persons should not be compelled to go to the workhouse,
but should have relief afforded to them at their own homes,
where they could receive the attentions of their friends, so ne-
cessary for their comfort. He thought there should be a
clause giving power to the magistrates to relieve paupers who
had attained a certain age, at their own houses.
The Duke of WELLINGTON thought that workhouses
were the only means, in many cases, in which the condition
of the poor could be ameliorated. As many parishes were too
small to support workhouses for themselves, it was necessary
that there should be a union of them.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that there were only
6,000 'wishes in which the population exceeded 2,000 ; and
there were 9,000 parishes in which the population was less than
500. It was therefore necessary that there should be a union
of parishes.
The Marquis of LAN SDOWNE said that if their Lord-
ships thought that the workhouse was the only means of ame-
liorating the condition of the poor, they ought to support the
clause as it stands. There were no means by which the clause
could be carried into effect with any advantage, but by vesting
a discretionary power in the Commissioners. They had just
heard it stated by his Noble and Learned Friend (the Lord
Chancellor) that there were nine thousand parishes in Eng-
land and Wales, the population of which was less than 500.
If, then, the Commissioners did not possess the power of en-
forcing a union, some of these small parishes would, in every
instance, defeat all attempts to form a union. It had been
objected to the workhouses, and undoubtedly it was the
greatest objection that could be urged against it, that the
indiscriminate intermixture of so many persons in workhouses
must necessarily lead to the contamination of each other's mo-
rals ; but let him (the Marquis of Lansdowne) ask whether,
if the Commissioners were deprived of a discretionary power
to unite parishes, and avail themselves of, the present large
e
workhouses, they would not be obliged to erect small
ones,
where all classification would be impassible, and where cause-
s,

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ti e Noble and. Learned Lord intended to limit the union of
parighes?
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that if these were to
be any limits at all, it would be better that the limits should
be to space than to the number of parishes ; that the union
should be limited to a certain number of miles. His opinion,
however, was, that there should be no restrictions; but that it
should be left in the first instance to the discretion of the corn_
,„ missioners. He would give them more power than might be
necessary, rather than fetter them in the first instance.
Lord WYNFORD said a few words which were wholly in_
audible in the gallery.
The Earl of FALMOUTH would propose that the union
parishes should not extend beyond a certain number of miles,
provided that it does not include parishes which hare work.
houses of their own, without the consent of the inhabitant "
The Lord CHANCELLOR thought that if there wssrio
be any restriction at all, it would be much better to have a
restriction as to .the number of inhabitants includedin- the
union—say 30,000 ; but, as he had already stated, he thought
it would be much better to leave it to the' discretion of tl e
Commissioners.

The amendment was then negatived without a division,
On the 25th clause being read,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH moved that a clause be inserted
allowing all Magistrates a discretionary power of giving relief
to any child under three years old, or any infirm Y, r son above
the age of sixty years, without requiring sack aged and infirm
person to enter the workhouse--a.ny rulg or regulation of the
Commissioners notwithstanding,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he had no ob-
jection to the proposal.
The Earl of RADNOR thought that it would be better to
leave the matter to the Commissioners, as they had the power
of giving relief out of the workhouse.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that it would be better to
leave infants in the hands of cottagers than in the hands of a
mercenary nurse.
Lord MELBOURNE, as applied to the aged, objected
to it, as it would be an infringement of the principle of
the Bill.
Lord FALMOUTH suggested that it would be better to
postpone the Noble Baron's clause till they came to the 50th
clause.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE suggested that the woad
" children" should be omitted.
After a short discussion,
Lout ELLENBOROUGH agreed to the suggestion of
the Noble Marquis, as he thought it would seldom' happen
that the magistrates would be called on to give relief' to
children in the workhouse.
The Noble Lord's clause was then agreed to.
The 26th, 27th, and 28th clauses were agreed to.
The 29th clause was postponed.
The 30th and following clauses to the 40th inclusive were
agreed to with some verbal amendments.
On the 41st clause being put,
A NOBLE LORD made some remark about religions in-
struction.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY suggested, as we
understood, that on the report being brought up, an
amendment to the following effect should be added to the
18th clause : That the inmates of a workhouse should
be under the care and tuition of the vicar or rector of the
parish in which such workhouse should be situated, and that
the rector might visit, and superintend, and afford religious
instruction to such inmates, provided that no inmate should be
obliged to attend divine worship contrary to the mode in
which he had been brought up ; nor should any child be in-
structed in the creeed of any religion to which the parents
might object."
In reply to a NOBLE LORD__
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said he had no ob-
jection to add to the amendment that those inmates who had
been in the habit of receiving consolation from Ministers not
belonging to the Established Church. should not be deprived
of such consolation, but that the Ministers should have liberty
to attend them.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said no objection could be
made to this amendment.
It was ordered to be printed, and the 41st clause was then
agreed to.
The clauses up to 45 having been agreed to, clause 46 was
struck out. Clauses 47 and 48 were then agreed to. On
clause 49
The Marquis of SALISBURY said he had an amendment
to propose to this clause. Though relief given to able-
bodied persons without employment was declared illegal,
yet it was undeniable that relief, under such circum-
stances, had been given, to a considerable extent, through-
out England ; he was, therefore, unwilling to see the system
put a stop to harshly and at once, fearing that this course
might lead to very serious evils. If, however, they fol-
lowed out the principle on which commissioners were to
be appointed, they would find that it was impossible, with-
out a special clause for that purpose, that the commis-
sioners could sanction that which was declared illegal. It was
provided that no relief should be given to the ablebodied poor
without employment after the Ist of June, 183 i,. Could they
expect that any Commissioner in the world could enforce that
law in the course of one year ? It was impossible ; and a con-
siderable time must elapse before this principle could be acted
on. Then in the same clause in which they fixed the day on
which the allowance should cease, they inserted a proviso to
suspend the operation of the enactment. That appeared to
him to be a vicious system of legislation, which first enacted a
clause, and then introduced a provision at the end for the pur-
pose of suspending it. He feared that another injurious con-
sequence would be, that giving relief to the able-bodied having
been once legalized, when the operations of the Commissioners
should cease, the principle would continue to be acted on. En-
tertaining these views, he begged to propose a preamble to the
49th clause, giving a discretionary power to the Commission-
ers. The Noble Lord concluded with moving the preamtie
as an amendment, to the effect, that an illegal practice had ob-
tained of giving relief to able-bodied persons, and great dim.
culty might arise in case of any immediate remedy of the evil,
therefore it should be lawful for the Commissioners to declare
to what extent such relief should be given, and at what period
such relief should cease to be afforded out of the workhouse.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was understood to object
to that part of the amendment which decided the legal ques-
tion. Ile had known several eminent individuals who differed
in their construction of the law, and he thought it better to
avoid deciding a legal question by a side-wind. There was
an old maxim which was worth remembrance ; it was this—.
" Take care when you change things, that you do not change
names : and take care when you change names, that you do
not change things without meaning it." He thought that the
other part of the amendment moved by the Noble Lord pro-
posed a very great and substantial improvement.—( Hear.)
The amendment was postponed till the other amendments
to be proposed in the clause were disposed of.
The Marquis of SALISBURY suggested that relief should
be given in kind; where this system had been pursued it had
been followed by the best results.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought it preferable to
leave this matter to the discretion of the Commissioners.
The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with his Noble
Friend that this had much better be left to the Commissioners.
To say that relief in money should not be afforded, under any
circumstances, might lead to very great inconvenience.
The Marquis of SALISBURY begged to withdraw his
amendment.
The clause and the preamble that had been moved by the
Marquis of Salisbury were then agreed to.
Clause 50 was omitted.
Clause 51 having been moved, and some Noble Lords
having intimated their intention to propose some amendments,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that, as it was now
late, it would, perhaps, be their Lordships' pleasure to adjourn.
The Noble and Learned Lord then suggested, that as they
had got through the greater part of the Bill, and as they would
be much engaged next week with other Bills which might be
expected from the House of Commons, it might be advisable
to meet at twelve o'clock to-morrow, when, perhaps, the Bill
might be passed through Committee.
Lord WYNFORD and other Noble Lords having objected
to this arrangement, and expressed a doubt as to whether it
would occasion any saving of time, inasmuch as such Noble
Lords as could not attend to-morrow would propose their
amendments on the bringing up of the report,
The Marquis of SALISBURY suggested that it might
answer all purposes if their Lordships met at twelve o'clock
on Monday.
The LORD CHANCELLOR approved of this sugges-
tion. Their Lordships then would adjourn till to-morrow,
only to receive the Coercion Bill from the House of Com-
mons, and would meet at twelve o'clock on Monday for the
dispatch of public business.—Adjourned.