The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-21 00:00:00

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' ..,k,atiltige of religion and the muntuttioltitirte'rliA, A:-'sa.
1
i.sis should be urged firw.rd. rif.A 'l7f--.1-4it. :„-V4N.
fops? days of Christianity woo find Chin. ' .:*l...tbOu 1'91;e:-..1
jmm.--,v, find them labouring in th VSii. :
e ifs and in•truct—but that day is past, and 'l--exlt I.llkw. ..,:•...."...
~,,,.v seeking wordiy and perisliahle lionourtl,nillatlais4,o7
tl t,•ting titles, seeking the accumulation of wealth and the
distinction of rank. Honesty and candour oblige me to
sate utv opinions of the ministers of the Church, and to
t•x press the hope I will soon see that humility and lowli-
o -a of spirit suitable to the teachers of religion, pourtrayed
the character of her •.:lergv. I hope to see a reformation
in the Church, not r.. reformation of discipline, but that
reformation which alane can be effected by a separation of
the Church from that wealth and those lands, which have
thhreoucgohmt
ini t i
urinito such
ty.
It
sdisrepute'inconsiwith s
tent twhei t
h thinking
common part of
sense,
that such a vast proportion of the wealth and teal property
of England and of Deland should he placed in the hands
of drones and idlers—it is a calumny on the name of
religion to argue that proud equipiges, tables groaning
with tic delicacies of the season, are necessary for men
whose duty it is to teach those divine ordnances so
meekly and humbly inculcated by our Redeemer.
Ch irity, the first precept of the gospel, ought to be the
simple guide by which the pastors of the church should
shape their course. It is their duty to be in charity with
all mankind ; to be on good terms with their flocks and
miethours. Yet it is not so—haughtiness, ignorance,
harshness, litigeousness, bigotry guide their mistaken
course, feud and animosity separate them front the people.
Will the measure brought forward by the Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland cure this state of things? It will
not—to effect a Radical cure the trammels which c ,nnec-
tion with the state has placed on the Protestant Church
must be removed. She must seek support from her own
purity and worthiness—a Protestant. lam not blind to
the blemishes of her teachers I cannot think it condu-
cive to the interests of religion that the dignitaries of any
church should revel in the luxuries of the palace; that
they should sit among the Peersof the Realm in the House
of Lords. On the contrary, I hold it adverse to the prin-
ciples and devotion of the holy founders of the Christian
filth, and in complete opposition to the example of
humility given to the world by Christ himself. For these
reasons, viz.—l am opposed to a church paid by the
state or the part of the constituency and numerous popu-
lation I represent, whose directions to me have ever been
usver to deviate from the direct course consistent with
p ilitical honesty, whose expressed wishes are, I should never
forgo or forget principle for any measure of expediency.
I protest against this Bill. It is a mere waste of money
applied to no good purpose, only keeping up a Church.
Ireland protests against a system of sinecures of the most
ohjectionable kind.
• The amendments were then agreed to, and the third
reading appointed for to•mnrrow.
TEA DUTIES' BILL.
This Dill went through a Committee. Report on
Thursday next.
FORGERY OF STAMPS' BILL.

tai 1

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On the third reading. of thin Bill lteing moved,
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULI, protested against
Bills of such importance being put off to the fig end of
the session.
Mr. SPRING RICE concurred in deprecating the
circumstance, but observed that parties charged with Bills
could not always get through with them as fast as they

The third reading was then, we believe, postponed.
JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. LITTLETON then rose to move the second real..
ing of this Bill, which had come down from the Lords.
Mr. SHAW should not go into the merits of the mea-
sure, but content himself with saying, that generally
t',roughoutlreland it had proved most unacceptable.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said that the measure
had his full approbation—at least so far as he could le

slid to form allopinion with the imperfect lights respect-.
in; everything Irish which he could he supposed to pos-
sess. One of the objects of the Bill Was to prevent
jurors being selected from mere caprice or party feeling.
Under the proposed measure, there wou!ri be a list, frun
which, of necessity, jurors must be fairly and imperially
chosen. He could not but entertain for the judges of the
land in the sister country the profoundest respect ; but of
their skill in legislation he must be permitted to doubt ;
trey were excellent judges of what the law was, but that
lid not qualify them to pronounce what it ought to be.
Mr. Sergeant PERRIN supported the Bill.
Mr. O'REILLY thought the Bill was necessary, or at
least some such law, for the purpose of compelling the
barony constables to do their duty.
Mr. LYNCH was favourable to any change which
would assimilate the laws of both countries.
Mr. COBBETT understood that it had been determined
upon that the House should next Session begin sitting
from ten till five every day, and thus he hoped means
would ari-re to prevent such an accumulation of business at
the end of the Session.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed on Thursday.
Oa the order of the day for the House resolving itself
into a Committee on the Chancery Offices' Compensation
Bill,

Mr. M. D. HILL expressed a wish to know from the
Noble Lord opposite whether any and what instructions
had been given to the Commissioners appointed to inquire
into the state of corporations ?
Lord ALTHORP said that no specific instructions
upon that subject had been issued from the Home-office.
The Chief Commissioner would, of course, make such
arrangements as, under the circumstances, might he
deemed necessary. He hoped he need not tell the House
that Government had no wish to skreen any abuses from
the severest scrutiny.
The Bill was then considered in Committee.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed, in reply to a
question, that the measure would produce an immediate
saving—all gratuities and copy money being done away
with.

The Howe resumed, the Chairman reported progress,
Ind the report was ordered to be received to-morrow
!this day).
The Chancery Officers' Regulation Bill, and the Land-
:as Commissioners' Names Bill, went severally through
Committee.—Reports to-morrow.

INFIRNIARIES (IRELAND) BILL.:
Mr. LYNCH moved the second reading of this Bill.
After a word or two from Mr. WARBURTON, Mr.
NiumtAY, and Mr. LYNCH, the Bill was read a second
time.—Committee to-morrow.
SALE OF BEER (LICENCES) BILL.
Mr. RICE moved the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. WARBURTON thought the consideration of the
Bill should be deferred for the present. The Session was
now so far advanced that there would not he time to con-
sult with the classes of persons the measure would affect.
From the Report of the Committee that sat up stair-, it
appeared to him that it would be better to defer the Bill
till next Session. It was the opinion of the Committee
that there should be unifoi tnity with respect to the hours
that beer shops and public-houses were kept open. In
that respect the Committee recommended that they should
he placed on the some footing. To take that recommen-
d ition into consideration required time, which was another
reason why be objected to the Bill being read a second
time at present. The mode of raising the price of
licenses would not make beer shops more respectable,
though it would be an additional tax on the sale of beer,
and might add 100,000/. a-year to the revenue. These
were two reasons why he opposed the Bill. However, he
would wave the objections founded on those reasons.
Ilia chief objection arose from the circumstance that they
were about to pass a Bill which affected the humbler class
f persons, with whom, at that late period of the Session,
they would have no opportunity of consulting. His other
objections were founded on the recommendations of the
Committee. He should, therefore, move that the Bill I)s
read a second time that day six months; but he hoped
the Noble Lord would save the trouble of a discussion,
and at once inform the House that it was the intention
rf GovernmEnt to postpone the measure for the present
Session.
Mr. RICE had nothing to :lay against the objection of
the Hon. Member, which was founded on the lateness of
the Session. But he thought if be could not justify that
delay, he could at least account for it. The cause of the
!clay was the referring the matter to a Committee, and
the time taken up by that Committee in the inquiry. In
honristietnhontopdi
snienioegd who
he h
yhf
ottihi
ecenotlußtloodi
tpghhabeyt i e
fbfotaor
base e
them,
be betteri
reelbali
;Hroiuue—oratherf
ttohtheatao do
Magistrates.
lte ilavis w
cee ntsi as
,e
es
tdhoen,en'Ttai,iin(t)tgefene thing h e iu I ";
With respect to what his Honourable Friend said
bout introducing uniformity of hours as to the
opening of public houses and beer shops, he agreed
hat it would be agreeable to place them on the
•arne footing Yin, ,that respect; but when he recot-
ected that there ti scarcely any limit in the hours
.f .1 keeping open public houses, lie thought it would
bjectionable to accord the same latitude CO beerh
at the
['here certainly might be some difficulty iu dealio,red
tiend
period of the session properly
b% h
(ii.
net htteht,
(inuergealutrtth' that
hta
ut
r+t all
vonld be liable to blame.
• still left ro illagi,tra,es the powt-i•
it
e
i
thatif they
ot
vtihek
nnraigepei
non
report
ttot
had
dull consideration' all the recommendations
fie.rising, they would be often to still greater centire,
Mr. COBBETT said, that looking to the imposslbility.

of sassing the Bill that session, and looking to the fact
that the Noble Lord brought it forward to show that te
wished to do something for the good of the public, Le
should say but a very few words upon the subject. The
Bill was one of very great importance, as it affected nail•
lions of men, and in a very sensible way too, since it
touched upon their comforts. If the Right Hoe. Gentle-
man thought that the evidence of the report alluded to
attributed the great increase of crime to the beer shops.
the Right Hon. Gentleman had not read the report with
the attention he (Mr. Cobbett) had read it. The evidence
of that report—excepting the evidence of one or two of
Sca clergy and of two hired overseers—did not attribute
Cie increase of crime to the beer shops. There was an
other thing in the report that ought not to have be, n
published—it was a scandalous libel, and which might be
made more offensive, since it could be copied with little
danger. He alluded to the shameful evidence of an excise-
:elan, which was one of the grossest libels he ever saw
upon paper. The parties were named in the libel—they
were two men and two women. The latter• were ac-
cused of adultery, and the former were said to be partner•
in the crime, and their characters painted in the very
worst light. Ile was not surprised that the prying-,
envious, and disappointed exciseman of a village should
have given such evidence ; hut he was greatly astonished
that the Committee should have allowed such evidence
to be printed. In his opposition to the Bill he was
completely disinterested. It would net affect him—it
would lay no tax upon him; indeed the Noble Lord could
not tax him in the way of drink, unless he chose to lay
a tax on cows' udders. He hoped that he should bear
no more of the Bill for the present session.
Mr. FYSCHE PALMER said that the opinions un-
f vourable to the present Beer Bill were not confined to
the clergy alone. There were gentlemen whom he had
known for the last thirty or forty years who attributed
to that Bill the increase of the crimes of sheep-stealins,
poaching, and other offences. They said that those crimes
were not so frequent before the existing Beer Bill had passed
into a law. If the Hon. Member for Oldham would look
into the evidence of the report of the Committee,
be would find the names of the gentlemen be alluded
to. That the pr. sent Bill made people drink somewhat
more was not astonishing. By the Bill good beer was
made more genersl, and when it was good, it did not give
persons the stom•tch ache ; and adding to that its being
sold at a low price, it was not surprising that a little more
intoxication took place. However, he saw no further
evils in the Bill, and he thought that a great deal that was
said against its bad effects arose out of an anery feeling on
the part of his fellow magistrates. Beer sellers could get
licences without applying to the magistrates—they could
obtain them from the excise—so that they were not so
subsesvient to the magistrates, and passed them without
condescending to take off their bats to them. This feel-
ing of independence and lack of courtesy was the cause of
angry feelings o❑ the part of his brother magistrates, and
he believed that the beer shops were allowed by the
magistrates to run riot and become mischievous, in order
that there might be an excuse for putting them down.
If the measure before them was allowed to pass, nine-
tenths of the beer shops would be put down, because
it would be impossible for them to get the six sureties
required, in order to have a license. If the six sureties
were taken from all England, it would be possible to
get them, but two were to be of the parish in which the
beer shop was to he opened ; and he would be prepared to
show in Committee, if the Bill should reach that stage,
that it would be impossible to get those two sureties. The
influence of any neielehouring gentleman or nobleman
would prevent it. He thought that if the Noble Lord let
matters stand as they did until next year, that the small
country beer shops, which were the chief causes of crime,
would die off. He should, therefore, though reluctantly,
vote against the second reading of the Bill.
An HoN. MEat➢Err defended the Magistrates from the
imputation cast upon them by the last Hon. Member, and
coil that the Grand Jury of the County he represented
were of opinion that the present Beer Bill was most per-
nicious in its effects.
Mr. EWART agreed with the Hon. Member for Brid.
port, that the Bill should not be pressed forward during
tha present session.
Colonel WILLIAMS thought that it had been proved,
by the evidence laid before the Cemmittee that sat to lu-
g lire into this matter, that theeexisting Bill was most
mischievous as to its effects on the agricultural districts.
The only thing that could remedy the evils arising from
er houses was to prevent drinking beer on the premises.
He intended to propose in Committee an amendment to
that effect. An Hon. Gentleman had said that the mea-
sure before the House would put down nine-tenths of the
present beer houses. If so, it was a consummation greatly
Co be desired, as it would relieve the country from many
evils--from the great evils entailed by the present beer
shops, of increasing the county and poors'.rates.—(oll.)
Ile hoped the Noble Lord would persevere in passing the
Bill, which, however, would not be complete, unless a
clause prohibiting the drinking of beer on the premises
were introduced.
Lord G. BENTINCK said the report of the peer law
commissioners attributed the riots and fires of 1830 to the
beer shop. That fact atone was sufficient to call fit•
legislative interference. He trusted that his Noble Friend
would not consent to abandon the Bill.
Lord HOTHAM (we believe) thought that Govern-
ment had done right in bringing forward the measure, and
said that, if they persevered in it, he should give it his
euppott. At the same time, it was his opinion that it
would have been better if this measure had been brough
forward when there were more gentlemen present.
After a few words from Mr. F. PALMER in explana
ion,

Lord ALTHORP rose and sail, that since the existence
of beer shops he bad not had an opportunity of personally
observing their practical working ; but that it seemed to
be universally the opinion of those who had the best op-
portunity of judging of their operation, that they had
been the cause of a great increase of crime.--(Hear.) If
this were the effect of the Bier Bill, no doubt could exist
but a change ought to he made. The question now was,
whether the system introduced by that Bill ought to be
altered, or a limit put upon its operation ? In the Com-
mittee of the House upon the subject, on the Report of
which the Act now in existence was founded, he (Lord
Althorp) had objected to any limitatiiin, because be
thought that although, in the first case, evils might
arise from the introduction of a novel and not per-
fectly understood system, yet that those evils might
shortly be got over. Now, however, be was inclined
to think that Parliament ought to interfere, seeing
that what bad been done operated differently from
the expectations entertained from it. He was glad, in
this view of the subject, that the Committee which had
lately sat on the state of the Beer Laws had given in the
report on which the present measure was founded; but
the report had been given in at an late a period, that it
was impossible anything could be done during the short
period that remained of the present session. But still he
thought that this was a Bill, the principle of which was
to be approved of.—(Hear, hear.) He observed that the
committee said, that the class and condition of persons
who kept beer shops, ought to be raised, in order to insure
their respectability ; but they also recommended that the
satne rating which constituted qualification in the coun-
try, should also qualify person, to keep beer shops in
towns. Now, it might happen that the sum which would
be a fit and proper rating in the country, would be a great
deal too small in tawny, and especially in large towns;
and the way in which the committee bad proposed that
this difficulty should be got over, was by allowing tba
magistrates to fix the amount of the rating. Now in his
(Lord Althorp'e) opinion, the practical effect of that
would be, to place the licensing entirely in the hands of
the magistrates; and he could nut but think it improper
that such a power should be in the hands of individuals.
He (Lord Althorp) had thought that some regulation
ought to be observed in the granting of licenses, as to the
respectability of the parties, and he had proposed a regula-
tion to that effect ; but the House was determined that no
such regulation should be enforced ; and he did not think
the rejection of his proposition sufficient to make him op-
pose a measure of which he otherwise approved. It was
still his opinion that some test of respectability
ought to be given before a license should be granted. And
the course which the plan proposed by this Bid to ensure
respectability, was not so much by certificates of former
good behaviour, as by laying penalties on misbehaviour.
They wished to add to the respectability of the parties by
raising the amount of the license duties. He admitted
that this plen was not as good as rating; but a general
system of rating he thought impracticable ; and he thought
that the same advantages might be derived, in a great
measure, from this plan of raising the license duties. He
(Lord Althurp) would be glad if this Bill could pass due.
iee the present session; but seeing the opposition with
which it was met, he could not say that it would be rea-
sonable to expect such a result. He did, however, wish that
some regulation should soon be agreed to; and he should
consider it his duty to introduce a measure early next ses-
sion, founded on the principle laid down in this Bill.
He hoped, then, considering that it was not intended that
the measure should be carried beyond that stage, and as
the promulgation of the principles of the measure would
be an advantage, that the Howe would agree to the second
reading.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought that it would be bes
to delay the measure ; but if the evil increased, which le
very much feared it would, be hoped that an early oppor