The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-05 00:00:00

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wtiltehdcisaturesstioni,'n fee/re tnuld prn-14--ceed upon. •
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(V' ; the distress whichwas most
1ff:1'u:1e:1 lturists. Thereforfeel
m country,tore
pbtahr
taine u aatfr tri y thing,th
atpart .a
< set. gricu be
le) e meantieved his distress f 4
; Government stood exculpated upon that subject,--(Hear,
hear.) Then be came to the Municipal Corporations.
Was it not felt by every body who knew anything of the
state of those Corporations that some remedy was required !
With respect to that, they had tak n the warrp en,„.„ and
bad proceeded to adopt the same means of inquiry, a t
! they had done with respect to the poor laws, in order
to direct the steps that were necessary to be taken in ar-
riving at the correction of these abuses. The Noble Doke
had doubted whether it would be prudent to act upon the
report of an illegal commission. Assumii:4 the commission
was illegal, he (Lord Grey) confessed that he was no/e-
-t
more surprised in his life than he was when ho
found an opinion had gone forth, and that that opinion
had received the sanction of a legal authority,
far whom he certainly bad the highest respect, as to the
I gality of that Commission, but he thought that until
information had been obtained as to those abuses, it was -
impossible for the House to take safe measures for the
correction of them. The Noble Duke had said that it
was impossible to make one invariable system throughout
all the corporations. He did not say that it would be
possible that there should be quite an invariable system,
hut he would say, and he was certain that the report of
the Commissioners would bear him out in the ti nth of
that assertion, that abuses, to an extent which could hardly
be believed, had keen discovered, that their correction retie
absolutely necessary, and that that correction would depend
upon the result of the inquiries who theycame to he laid
before their Lordships. The last and the most important
consideration dell was the situation of the church, and upon
that he certainly deprrcat. d any rash alteration, and he
thotight they should approach wish great caution any
general charge affecting the established church. The
Noble Duke said, and had complained, that many /lesions
connected with the Government—many friends of the
Government—had made speeches which !se had seen re-
ported in the newspapers which he thought highly terse°,
rioue. Perhaps lie (the Noble Earl) did not read
either so often or attentively the public papers as the Noble
Duke, and therefore he did not know to what particular
speeches or to what particular assertions the Noble Duke
alluded ; all he had to say was this, that he beefed to
his claim not to be bound by any thing that was slid
upon such occasions, which might or might no: be
truly represented, but whether truly represented or
not, would form no rule for his conduct, which
could on no account be regulated by any feelings
but what his public duty required.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
—lf the Noble Duke wished for his confession of faith
upon that subject, he hod not the least hesitation in say-
ing at once that he was a friend to the Church
Establishment, that be was a zealous supporter of
the Church Establishment, and that he was not
one who would encourage any one of those theories
which tended to separate Church from State.—(Cheers.)
He thought such theories highly extravagant and dange-
rous, and had not concealed his opinions upon them.
He had had communications with Dissenters upon various
subjects of complaint, to some of which he thought there
would be found the means of affording speedy relief,
but be had stated explicitly that, as far as real grievance
went, he would be anxious, and he believed the
enlightened heads of the church would be anxious, to
afford any relief that could reasonably be required ; but if
they went farther, and pressed doctrines. and opinions
which led to the destruction of the Establishment itself,
as a thing unchristian, as they called it, he at once took
his stand— (Loud cheers)--against applications for relief
founded on such principles as those, and if such
;attempts as those were made, they would find him
not only a supporter of the Established Church, but one
of their most determined opponents. (Loud cheers.)
In stating those opinions, it was not to be understood that
lie was opposed to any measure of church reform, because
he felt IT the sake of the church itself, and he believed
a great many of its stanch supporters thought it was
necessary, that the state of the church should be
looked into, and that the abuses which existed in it should
be corrected. But he knew also that there was great
difficulty en that subject. He had stated, with the most
thorough conviction of the necessity of looking into them,
his determination, if be remained a member of the Govern-
ment, to bring forward, when he could do so safely and
conscientiously, any measure that might be necessary for
that purpose; but with that determination, his wish was
that it should be a measure founded upon truly conserva-
tive principles, not using that word in the sense in which
he thought it had been much abused, a mea-
sure for the purpose of preserving and supporting
the Established Church, and not for the purpose of
committing depredations upon it.—(Loud cheering.)
There was one topic upon which he should make some
observations. The Noble Duke had alluded to the state
of the sister kingdom, and asked whether it was the in•
tention of Government to renew what he (the Noble Duke)
called the Coercive, but what he (Earl Grey) termed the
Protecting Bill. He asked whether it was the inten-
tion of Government to put down that spirit which
is calculated to create excitement—(Hear)—anti, in the
woves of the King's speech, to prove fatal to the power
and safety of that kingdom. In the determination which
his Majesty has formed, be trusted that he did not
calculate in vain on such support as would enable
him to restore a pacific order of things.—(Hear, hear.)
The Protecting all expires on the Ist of August,
and if the times shall require, it will be necessary
to adopt such means as may be considered essen-
tial to the full restoration of tranquillity. It was
with feelings of unhappiness, last year, that he found it
imperative on him to propose such a measure to Par-
liament, and it would be with the same feelings of regret
that it would be repeated this year : while it would be
the happiest moment of his (the ',Hole Earl's) life,
if he could, consistently with his duty, propose to
Parliament, that its renewal was unnecessary. Such
circumstances did not exist now as to render such a
proposition expedient. In a few months there might be
such; he (Earl Grey) could not say; but his Majesty's
Government could not be expected to make any definite
promise.—(Hear, hear.) A state of irritation and excite-
ment existed now; and notwithstanding. by t`te blessings
of Providence, agi iculture and trade were improving i n that
country. It was to be lamented that such blessings were to
be frustrated by the malignant spirit of a man—but as he
Was not present, he (Earl Grey) would refrain from
allusion to him—but it was hard that such a state of pro-
gressive improvement was to be retarded, and that country
to be prevented from advancing to that happiness
and prosperity which it was so well calculated to
attain. He did not recollect any other topics which it was
necessary to advert to; he had, he feared, exhausted their
Lordship? patience—(No, no)—but in conclusion, he
would assure their Lordships, that no measure which could
tend to ameliorate the country at large should be ne-
glected. They (his Majesty's Ministers) would do what
they could. Such intentions, suet, efforts, may justly
entitle them to the confidence of the people, and when
that was withdrawn, they would willingly retire from
their present office.—(Loud cheers.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON, in explanation, said,
that he did not at all blame the Noble Earl for having mea-
sures to bring forward; what be complained of was, that
those measures had not been adverted to in his Majesty's
speech.
On the motion of Earl GREY the usual sessional re-
solutions were agreed to.
Earl GREY then said that be had one resolution to
propose to their Lordships, on which he felt it would not
be necessary for him to say much, confident as lie was
that it would meet with the unanimous assent of the
whole House. He should move that the Earl of Shafts •
bury be elected as Chairman of all Committees of that
House. His assiduous discharge of the duties of that
laborious office were too well known to their Loriships
to render it necessary for him to do more than repeat his
confidence of the unanimous concurrence of their Lord-
ships in that proposition —(Hear, hear.)
The motion was agreed to.
Tue Earl of SHAFTESBURY rose to return thanks
for the honour conferred upon him upon that, the twentieth
occasion that their Lordships bad elected him to fill the
office of Chairman of Committees. He could not suffi-
ciently
taaeni
their
eLroe pnds rwbeishi s:schfo hisr
he
thehaenbkamsd
at
no
pntrehorep
ioNns
eowdb lheti
which
bLe ot rhinde
motion,
hoc:
dt, h
uen
nokari
antido.
mously concurred in agreeing to it.
Earl GREY then moved that the Earl of Shaftesbury
should also be appointed Chairman of all Committees on
Private Bills &c., unless otherwise arranged.—Agree I to.
Their Lordships then adjourned at a quarter to eight
o'clock, until toenorrow (this day) at one.

( PRICE

circumstances, he considered that the best course wbida
this country could take was, not only to observe a real
otutrality, but to call upon Slain to observe the same.
But the Noble Duke had extended his accusation, and bad
assumed that if we had acknowledged Don Miguel—the
Noble Duke not showing how we could acknowledge him—
if we had acknowledged him, the succession of the infant
Queen of Spain would be secured. (Hear, hear.)
But they had not the power of insisting on Don Miguel.
He was an independent Prince, possessed of all the rights
of Sovereignty ; and how could we, upon the strictest
principles of the laws of nations, presume to :nterfere in
the internal policy of Portugal ?—(Cheers)—and insist
that Don Miguel should not give a refuge to Don

Carlos, but compel him to quit the kingdom ?
(Hear, hear.) They might, considering the situation of

:his country, contend that we might legally interfere.

But as to the certainty that Don Miguel would listen to

;he representations of this country, and show any reefird
o them, be would not venture to assume. Ile felt as

strong as the Noble Duke the importance of the settlement
of the Penirsult ; he felt the importance of the general

tranquillity of Europe as strongly as any man ; it was for
the internal interests of this country, and he was as
desirous as any man could be, of the restoration of hap.
piness and peace to those countries, and of that Govern-
ment which would be most conducive to their prosperity.
Wien he looked to the civil war of Spain, he could not
contemplate the possibility of Don Miguel seated on the
throne of Portugal, supported by the apostolical party—
he could not contemplate the possibility of such
a state of things without feeling certain they
would not afford by any means a good prospect of the
establishment of•the throne of tie inrant Queen of Spain.
The Noble Duke did not state that be arraigned the

Government for acknowledging the succession of the
Queen of Spain, but something fell from him that seemed
to him (Earl Grey) very suspicious. The Noble Duke
spoke of an alteration by the late King of Spai❑ of the
law of the succession to 'the throne of that kinghom. As

far as any alteration was made, it was but a return to the
old established rule of succe•sian in that country,
and Government were of opinion that a speedy recogni-
tion of the succession established by the late King, would
give a moral influence and power to the Government of ,
this country which would enable it to put a speedy end to
the contest going on in Spain. Before this the Govern-
ment had looked with anxiety to what might be the
state of circumstances in Spain, and a proposition was
made to the Spanish Ministers, which, if it had
been accepted, would have settled the dispute in Portugal,
established the succession in Spain, and given security
to the Government. This proposition, however, was not
successful, end he would not, therefore, say anything
further on it.—(Hear, hear.) All he would add
was, that on looking back, there was not one step taken
by the Government of this country, which they
were not, under the same circumstances, ready to
take again, and for which he was not willing to be
responsible.—(Cheers ) The Noble Duke had said that
the Government of this country had encouraged Don
Pedro, that they had rent ships to the Tagus and the
Douro for his protection. Undoubtedly, the civil war in
Portugal had placed much British property, and many
British subjects, in danger and uncertainty; and what
would the Noble Duke have said if we had left them unpro-
tected? This was the only object for which ships were sent
to that country, and they had received orders to observe
the strictest neutrality. Complaints, most unjustly he
was sure, had been made, that the fleets sent out by this
country were rather more favourable to Don Miguel than
to Don Pedro; but, as he had stated on former occasions,
he did not suppose but that a strict neutrality, such
as they were bound to observe, had been observed. It
had never been departed from under any circumstances.
The next subject was that referred to in his Majes-
ty's speech, in which it was said, that " the peace
of Tut key, since the settlement that was made
with Mehemet Ali, hat not been interrupted, and will net,
I trust, be threatened with any new changes, It will be
my object to prevent any change in the relations of that
empire with other Powers which might affect its future
stability and independence."' It would be impossible fur
him (Earl Grey) fully to enter into the circumstances at
tending the previous transactions which bid taken place
with respect to the Turkish empire. The Noble Duke had
said that Government ought to have bad recourse to a
measure on this occasion which, upon a similar occasion,
had been successful. He (Earl Grey) did net know to
what measure the Noble Duke alluded ; but when dan-
ger appeared they were not slow in taking measures to
prevent it, and in April, 1833, this GovernMent had
made a strong declaration to Mehemet Ali, which bad
produced as much affect as anything could do. It
was not the duty of the Government, when the
interests of the country were not immediately
concerned, to involve themselves in a conflict with other
powers. He did not know that they were in such a state
that this country should be caled on to declare itself an

enemy to Mehemet Ali. On the contrary, it was a matter
of great import‘nce, from our commercial reations with
Egypt, that we should remain on friendly terms with
the rulers of that country. Anxious to prevent the exten-
sion of hostilities, they bad taken means to do so, which
proved successful. It was said that by what lately happened
in Turkey, that country was placed in a state of depen-
dence on Russia. This was a state of things which this
country looked upon with jealousy and fear, lint it was
not owing to the present Government. No person
could look at the treaty of Adrianople without
feeling that this was the event of it, and that the
condi..ion in which the Porte was placed would prove a
fatal blow to its security and independence. He could refer
to despatches during the administration of the Noble Duke
in which the same statements were expressed, and the
same forebodings with respect to the independence of
Turkey. By that treaty of Adrianople, Russia was put in
possession of the navigation of the D ,nuke to the Black Sea,
and the two important provinces of Wallachia and Moldavia.
The hospodars of those provinces would be rendered com-
pletely independent of Turkey, if they should ever be
released from Russia by the payment of the tribute
owing to that country by Turkey. Thus Turkey was
degraded, and received a fatal blow to its independence,
which it could scarce ever hope to recover. It should,
however, be the policy of this country to maintain it as long
as it could, and this policy they were determined o adopt.
The Noble Duke had referred to the subject of the
Commissions that bad been issued. He (Lord Grey)
would say, that that showed his Majesty's Government
had not gone rashly to work, but had appointed Commis-
sioners to inquire into these important circumstances
before they called upon their Lordships to legislate on
the matter, and that they would not do so without
full consideration having been given to the various
subjects. Did the issuing of these Commissions
not indicate quite clearly that it was the intention of his
Majesty's Government, when they could do so, to propose
to Parliament such measures of correction as the defects
and abuses may require, and to legislate upon them in
such a manner as the examination of the subject and the
calculations upon the information that may be pro-
duced will justify ? The Noble Duke had stated,
in language of reproach, that the important question
of the poor laws, which in its present state he (the Noble
Earl) considered the most alarming—(Hear, hear)—the
most difficult to be settled—(Hear, bear)—that his Ma-
jesty's Government during a period of three years had
done nothing upon that subject. He would ask what
the Noble Duke's Administration, and what the Ad-
ministration that had preceded him, had done upon
that subject? Were the abuses of the poor laws at
that time unknown?—(Hear.) He would refer their
Lordships to the able report of Mr. Stourges Bourne,
made so far back as 1819, in which they would find the
defects most ably pointed out by that learned person.
That report had been made ten years before the breaking
up of the Noble Duke's administration, and yet not only
was no step taken, but he would ask whether any measure
had ever been in contemplation upon that subject ? He
thought it was a little bard that they should be
arraigned, that they had not done any thing, especially
when they considered the important and extensive measures
that were passed during the last session, and that they
should be considered blameable for not settling a question
which the united wisdom and vigour of former adminis-
trations had not been able to take the advance of a single
step upon. He thought they did what was the best
thing tney could do; a commission was issued to
inquire into it, and be trusted that in a very short
time a report would be laid before their Lord-
ships from that Commission, in which most valuable
information would be found in large and extensive views,
which would show at once the difficulties and the neces
sity of a settlement upon it, and which would also point
out the modes in which the deficiency of those laws might

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Fra.4.

The SPEAKER entered the House at twenty minutes to
two o'clock, dressed in his robes of state, and wearing
the insignia of a Grand Cross of the Bath. He to, k his
seat at the table, and the greater part of the Members, as
they entered, shook hands with him, and offered their
congratulations.
At half p ist two o'clock the Usher of the Black Rod
was announced, when the Sp aker took the chair. The
Black Rod then advanced to the table and said, "Mr.
:_•.;peakir, the King commairls the immediate presence of
this lion. House in the House of Peers," when be retired.