The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-20 00:00:00

which the grand jury would be enabled to vest the manage-
ment of the county funds in a committee,—the checks for
payment to be countersigned by their own secretary. He
had not ventured to introduce any provision for handing
over the management of the great mail coach roads in Ire-
land from the grand jury to the public Board of Works,
because he was not sufficiently acquainted with all the
bearings of the subject, and was anxious to heat the opi-
nions of ptactical persons. He titre* out the suggestion,
however, as well worth their consideration. These were
the alterations in the etisting system of grand jury laws
which he meant to propose, and from which he expected
the most beneficial results. If he had not gone as far as
some Hon. Members might wish, he could assure them
he went to the furthest point on which be could count on
a concurrence of opinion of the large majority as to its
practicability and being desirable. He conceived his changes
would be Substantial improvements, that alone by making
publicity the condition of grand jury proceedings he was
inuring the public against those corrupt influences for
which publicity was the most efficient check. He would,
as he had stated, refer this measure to a Select Committee,
where he should court the fullest discussion, Tae Right
lion. Gentleman concluded with moving for leave to bring
in a Bill to amend the laws relating to grand juries in Ire-

land.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL would freely give the Right Hon.
Gentleman credit for the praiseworthy labour which be
had bestowed on the present Bill. He also freely accorded
to his plan the power of effecting very many substantial
inaprovementa in the present system. The Right Honour-
able Gentleman's statement was a true picture (as far as it
went for it was much understated) of the gross abuses of
the Irish Grand Jury system, which he (Mr. O'Connell)
and others had often held up to pu'lic indignation. He
trusted it would ba received by the English Members as
a " Taste of the quality" of Irish cuff ring—(Hear, hear)
—as a part, and no considerable one either, of the mon-
strous abuses under which the people of Ireland bad so
long laboured.—(H-ar.) The chief difference with the
Right Honourable Gentleman was as to the mode of elect-
ing Grand Juries. The Right Honourable Gentleman's
Bill would continue the present system of making them
the choice of the Hikh Sheriff, a wholly irresponsible
officer of the time being; while be (Mr. O'Connell)
would make the choice rest on the constitutional principle
of representation being founded on taxation : that is, he
would leave the choice in tt.e hands of the rate-payers. As
far as the Bill went, it would, however, in many of its
provisions be a most beneficial amendment of the existing
Grand Jury system of Ireland—a system which had been
too much abused, as a mere means of landlord-jobbing—
(Hear)—it being notorious that there was not a county in
Ireland in which fortunes had not been male by Gr ,nd
Jury-jobbing, and that too, by their Magistrates and fine
gentlemen.
Mr. LEFROY could not sit silent and hear such a
statement made, concerning the gentlemen of Ireland, as
that just expressed by the Learned Member for Dublin.
There might be individual instances of jobbing and corrup-
tion under the Grand Jury system, but he would emphati-
cally declare that such was not the conduct of Grand
Jurors in general. He was glad the Right Hon. Se-
cretary was not, in introducing the Biil, wholly led away
by the speculative novelty spirit of the age, which was as
opposed to common sense as to the wise customs of our
ancestors.
In answer to a question put by an How. MEatnEa,
Mr. STANLEY said that the county of Dublin was
not included in the Bill before the House, but that it
was his intention to apply the same principles to tint
county as far as the different circumstances would permit.
Colonel CONOLLY expressed his approbation of the
measure proposed by the Right lion. Secretary. He
could not, however, help thinking that one great evil had
been passed over by the Right Hon. Secretary—he al-
luded to the heavy charge put upon counties, and the
want of all proper control over the money raised. In his
opinion, too, the salaries of public officers in the different
counties ought to be equalized ; and it would be a great
advantage to hold the assizes once every six months instead
. .

of at uncertain periods, as at present.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR was most willing to acquiesce in
the praise bestowed by the last speaker on the Right Hon.
Secretary for introducing this me isure. With respect to
the measure itself, he concurred entirely in all its provi-
sions--(Hear)—with a few exceptions.--(Liughter.)
Colonel TORRENS rose to give his meed of approba-
tion to the Right Hon. Secretary for the measure which
he had introduced ; he thought, however, that it ought to
go further. He believed that a system of representation
should be established with respect to the Grand Juries,
but he hailed it as a step which must lead to further im-
provement.
Mr. FINN expressed his concurrence in much that
had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
on that point.
Mr J. BROWNE approved of the measure, which he
Lord CLEMENTS should give his support to the Bill

moved for by the Right Hon. S..cretary.
An HoN. Mganicit (name unknown) admitted the ne-
cessity of some improvement being made in the Grand
Jury system, but he thought that the taxes levied under
it were applied very beneficially for the country. He
approved of that part of the Bill which made it impera-
tive on the Sheriffs to appoint Juries from different
baronies. He doubted the propriety of appointing a
county surveyor.
Mr. PRYME (we believe) hoped that this Bill would
prove beneficial to Ireland, but doubted whether it would.
He had long thought the Grand Jury system in England
objectionable, and stated that it was in consequence of the
irresponsible power of ignoring bills which they possessed
that no inquisition had ever taken place into the circum-
stances of the Manchester massacre. The application of
our Grand Jury system to Ireland would be still more ob-
jectionable in that country than it was in this, owing to
the unfortunate jealousies which existed between the rich
and the poor of Ireland, and which divided them into two
distinct classes.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL declared his approbation of the
Bill of the Right Hon. Secretary.
Mr. FITZGERALD would say that the measure
brought forward by the Right Hon. Secretary would give
great satisfaction in Ireland, and to none more than many
of the Grand Jury of the county with whom he had the
honour to act for years, for it would relieve them of a
weight of responsibility which it was impossible they
could exercise at all times to give general satisfaction.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
EXTINCTION OF TITHES.
Mr. O'CONNELL had given notice that be would on
that evening move for leave to bring in a Bill fiar the
total extinction of tithes in Ireland. Since he had given
that notice a plan of Church Reform had been laid before
the House by his Majesty's Ministers. That plan did not
include any mode of relieving the people of Ireland from
the pressure of tithes ; nor, as far as it was announced,
did it show what was to be done with tithes, or how the
funds now destined for ecclesiastical purposes were to be
applied. As the plans of Government were only de•
veloped in part, he felt that in creating a discussion on
this subject he should be interfering with a measure
which had been undertaken by Ministers on their own
responsibility, and which had already met with the sanc-
tion of the House. He therefite felt that his better
course was not to bring his motion tinder discussion until
all the details of the Ministerial measure were printed,
and acting upon that feeling he should defer hie motion
till Thursday, May 9. Notice deferred accordingly.
EXTINCTION OF VESTRY CESS IN IRELAND.
Mr. O'CONELL had a'so a notice of motion on the
books relating to a second subject—the total extinction of
all compulsory payments of vestry ceases, or vestry rates,
in Ireland. Now, by the plan of Church Reform an-
nounced by Ministers, the vestry cess was to cease entirely
and immediately. His Majesty's Ministers were therefore
anxious to effectuate that which he had desired to effec-
tuate by his motion, Ile would, however, beg leave to
bring in his Bill, and for this reason, that it being a sepa-
rate subject, a separate Bill would be necessary to get rid
of the existing laws by which church cess was levied, and
so leave the other great measure of Ministers unembar-
rassed by complicated details. If, however, the Noble
Lord should be inclined to oppose his motion, he (Mr.
O'Connell) would not press it to a division, but would,
by leave of the House, withdraw it for the present.
Lord ALTHORP said that the same reason which in-
duced the Hon. and Learned Member to postpone his
motion far the extinction of tithes until, the details of the
plan of Church Reform were printed, ought to induce him
to postpone his second motion. He (Lord Althorp)
thought that a separate Bill for the repeal of church cess
was unnecessary.
Mr. O'CONNELL asked when the Church Reform
Bill would be ready.
Lord ALTHORP expressed a hope that he should be
able to bring it in the course of next week.
PATENTS FOR INVENTIONS.

Mr. GODSON moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the law respecting letters patent for inventions.
The Hon. and Learned Member explained at some length
the state of the existing law and practice respecting patents.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had no intention to
oppose the motion ; on the contrary, he would heartily
concur in any plan that would give greater simplicity to
the law of patents, and save delay and expense, consistent
with the principle upon which patents were and ought to
be granted.
Mr. LENNARD was glad that a measure was to be