The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-27 00:00:00

Ziht

LONDON,
WEDNESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 27, 1834.

Journals and letters from Madrid, bearing date
from the 13th to the 17th inst., both included, have
been just received by express. The intelligence they
bring is important to Spain ; but with the exception of
some remarks on Count TORENO'S plan for the liqui-
dation of the public debt, and the sensation created in
the Chambers by the Minister of the Interior's refusal
to produce certain documents declaratory of the real
state of the country, they contain nothing of ally mo-
ment to the inhabitants of foreign states. The de-
bate which arose in the Chamber of Deputies, dur-
ing the sitting of the 14th instant, in consequence
of Count DE LAS NA vAs putting a question to the
Minister of the Interior respecting tile real state of
Spain, must satisfy the intelligent portion of the
British public that Spain enjoys but the shadow of
liberty, and that what Ministers have called a clamour
for a constitution, was a demand for the recognition of
rights.which only exist in appearance in that country.
The Chamber of Deputies was surprised to learn that
it was called upon to legislate in utter ignorance of
the condition of those upon whom the laws were
designed to operate. After the opening of the sitting,
Count DE LAS NAVAS rose, and observed, that
seeing the Minister of the Interior in his place in
the Chamber, he requested to be informed respect•
ing the truth of certain rumours of conspiracies
being discovered, and what steps the Government had
taken for their suppression. In a British House of
Commons this would .have been considered a fair and
proper question, and would have elicited a direct an-

TAIL' SIC INT L",,,,irtem7,„7 -17.7-17 T:4l 7r,,, 4xr
.11.5 kfi LA, 1.4 ~.~_~►~mb~ , AUGUST 27 183 i.

sorer. But in Spain it sounded differently. The
Minister of the Spanish Interior peremptorily refused
to answer such a question ; and after being pressed
hard by Senor LOPEZ, gave utterance to the following
curious expose of a liberal administration's definition of
the rights of the Chamber of Deputies, and the extent
to which it would permit their exercise :
" The MINISTER Of the INTERIOR.—The Government will
not render an account upon the simple demand of a deputy ; it
will answer frankly whenever the ideas are fixed by means of
a petition addressed to her Majesty in all the forms settled by
the regulations. In no other way will the Government satisfy
the curiosity of the deputies, however laudable that curiosity
may be. In. no part of the regulations is the duty imposed
upon Ministers of answering always, and whenever it suits a
deputy to make inquiry upon any matters concerning their re-
spective departments. This satisfaction is due only to the
Queen-Regent, in whom resides solely the faculty of governing
and executing whatever concerns the salvation of the country.
But as to the Chamber, whose powers are purely legislative,
that satisfaction can only be given when a petition is regu-
larly signed."

We cannot repress a laugh when we recollect that
this declaration—more suited to the meridian of Bar-
bary than a country which boasts of having freed her-
self from the fetters of feudal despotism—was made by
the colleague of a Minister who treated with a con-
temptuous sneer the demand for a charter similar to the
Magna Charta and Bill of Rights, which constitute
the great bulwark of British liberty. The Spanish
Deputies were merely legislators, and legislation re-
quired no knowledge of thi state of Spain, save what
her Most Catholic Majesty, the QUEEN-REGENT,
might be pleased to impart, on the humble supplica-
tiom of the Chamber I To her Majesty alone he de-
clared due the unlimited right of eating of the fruit of
the Tree of Knowledge. The Deputies were not
called together to ask impertinent and troublesome
questions ; their duty was to learn her Majesty's
pleasure, and hasten to execute it. The zeal of
the Minister was not the result of a mere love of
order, but arose from an admiration of the system
which he defended. In answer to an observa-
tion on the wisdom and prudence of making such
changes in the forms of legislative inquiries as would
give to the Deputies of Spain a fair proportion of the
freedom conceded to such bodies in other countries, the
Minister of the Interior further said—
" I will never consent that new resolutions shall be esta-
blished, whereby a Minister is to be called upon to answer the
mere queries of the Deputies. I will do so when they (the
Deputies) shall conform themselves to the forms of the regula-
tions, and even then it will be the Chamber, and not its indi-
vidual members, which it will be in question to satisfy. When
this case shall arise its alarms shall be tranquillized. If the
Honourable Deputy should make a proposition, the Govern-
ment will examine whether it be made in the prescribed
forms, and, if so, it will hasten to accede to the wishes of the
Chamber ; but the moment that it swerves one line—one iota—
from the said forms, the Ministry will not consider itself bound
to make any answer."

We admit that occurrences may sometimes take
place, which would render it prudent for a Govern-
ment to withhold for a time the particulars of some
passing dangeri,the more especially when undue publi-
city would defeat the ends of justice, or endanger the
safety of the State, by betraying her councils to hos-
tile states ; but we can fancy nothing so insultingly
despotic as the concluding remarks in the above ex-
tract from the Minister's speech. That a Govern-
ment should be so tenacious of forms, as to an-
nounce a determination to sacrifice to them both
the public interest, and the right of complying
with the most popular branch of the legislature, is little
short of the announcement of a Ministerial design to
crush the rising freedom of Spain, the moment the
Ministry are delivered from the presence of the common
enemy Don CARLOS.

The more attention we give to the recent move-
ments in the Madrid Cabinet, the more convinced
we are that the liberties of Spain can never be secured
but by a charter. The Ministry are doubtless actuated
by the best motives, and have, as we observed yesterday,
difficulties of no ordinary magnitude to contend with ;
but notwithstanding all this, they are 'clearly behind
the age in which we live. We know enough of human
nature to be aware of the extreme caution with which
all changes, even for the best, should be made ; we
know that liberly first introduced among a previously
enslaved people, is very apt to degenerate into licen-
tiousness, and that the population of Spain are in
general very ignorant and grossly superstitious.
But because we cannot have things perfect, shall
we neglect having them as good as the nature
of things will admit ? Are men to be chained be-
cause they might abuse their liberty by com-
mitting suicide ? Let the people of Spain have a
charter embodying the greatest degree of freedom
that can be safely extended to them at present, which'
may receive improvement as they become fitted for it
under a liberal Government, by the acquirement of
sound moral and political knowledge.
Great discontent prevails in Madrid respecting To-
RENO'S scheme for the management of the debt ;
and many members of the. Finance Committee are
more than ever opposed to it in consequence of the
delay which continues to take place in laying before
the Committee the necessary documents, without
which nothing can be done respecting it. Two new
members were added to the Committee on the 14th,
but we have not learned what were their opinions on
the subject. The general impression is, that ToRENO'S
plan, if carried into effect would amount to a declaration
of national bankruptcy, and that the holders of Cortes
Bonds would be the severest sufferers. This is denounced
as the grolisest injustice, inasmuch as the only parties
who ought to suffer under such a calamity would be
the holders of the Perpetuelles, or Stock created by
the late King without the consent of the Cortes, and
for the avowed purpose of crushing the liberties of
Spain. The Perpetuelles were also issued at ex-
traordinary discount, so that the purchasers were
no strangers to the hazard of speculating in them.
We trust, however, that Spain will not ruin her-
self by an act of injustice to any party. Low
as are her finances at the present moment, she pos-
sesses abundant means of satisfying all her creditors,
by having recourse to the ecclesiastical property merged
in the possession of monkish fraternities.

There is no direct news from Madrid respecting the
present state of the disturbed provinces ; neither is
there any account that can be depended upon relative
to the movements of B:ODIL and the rebels, save what
is given in the French papers. We have not learned
whether there is any trvlth in the report of an insurrection
breaking out in the al my of the traitor CARL os, and
that ZUMALACARR EGUY ordered eighteen of the
ringleaders to be shot, but there is more than a pro-
bability of its being corn

express, the whole of the We have received, by
Paris papers of Mon day and yesterday, with private
communications of tb ,e same date. They all speak of
the affairs of Spain as the only important topic now
on the tapis in Pari s. We learn from them that the
Spanish Cabinet becoming every day more unpo.

pular—that Don CARLOS holds out hopes to his fol-
lowers, from the length of time he, has escapedimmo-
tested, and that ZUMALACARREGUY contemplates
the capture of Madrid, towards which place the rebels
are now flying, pursued by RODIL and the royal army.
The Journal de Paris published on Sunday night the
following official bulletin :

" Don Carlos, escorted by two battalions and two companies
of guides, slept on the 20th inst. at Leyza, and was, no doubt,
at San Estevan on the following day. Zumalacarreguy was, on
the 20th, in the valley of Ulzama, marching on Estella. Rodil
and Jaureguy (El Pastor) were, on the 21st, at Tolose
with 10,000 men."

This was followed on Monday by the publication of
the following telegraphic despatch, in the Moniteur,
received by the French authorities on the previou

evening :
" Bayonne, Aug. 23.
" On the 21st, Zumalacarreguy passed through Thiebas,
directing his course towards Aoiz, and pursued by Lorenzu.
" On the same clay Rodil was advancing on San E, tevan,
where Don Carlos had arrived."
This includes the whole of the information contained
in these papers, except a rumour that Spain is to re-
ceive aid from Portugal instead of from France, and
that the Portuguese troops are on their way to the dis-
turbed districts in the vicinity of Pampeluna.

The German Papers contain no intelligence of the
slightest public interest.

If there is any one thing more than another in Par-
liament which the people are entitled to have set right,
it is the proceedings upon Private Bills, because their
interests are thereby directly affected. Nevertheless, a
Committee, which was appointed last Session, " to
investigate the nature and amount of fees, charges,
and expenses, attendant upon the progress and passing
of Private Bills" in reporting ten resolutions, embrac-
ing every other matter into which it inquired, is alto-
gether silent upon the most important of all, namely,
the expense attending the bad constitution of the Com-
mittees to whom Private Bills are referred, though
three witnesses, examined before this Committee, dis-
tinctly and strongly point out the evils in this and
other respects, attendant upon them. Even in relation
to the mere matter of expense, the consequences were
so stated by the first of these witnesses, as to seem to
make it impossible for the Committee (as a matter
they were bound to inquire into) to avoid taking
notice of these consequences; for this witness says,
" the irregularity and increased expense of counsel
and agents (he should have added, of witnesses,) is
raised to a point which no person can conceive pos-
sible unless they were conversant with the subject."
And the last of these witnesses says, " I cannot
figure to myself a more objectionable tribunal than a
Committee upon a Private Bill. The result depends
solely on the canvass of the Members ; and as to
merits, they weigh very little upon a division ; and the
evidence given openly is far out-balanced by private
whispering among the Members, who too often appear
to me to care little about the business before them,
and, provided they please the party who may have
canvassed them, either for carrying or rejecting the
Bill, without regard to its merits or demerits, they feel
satisfied." And with regard to expense, he adds—
" The expense complained of would greatly diminish
if any thing approaching to confidence in the tribunal
was established."

It does not require a ghost to tell us that where 120
or 130 Members are liable to be canvassed before a
Committee is appointed, and during the whole of its
sittings—where the Committee is constantly fluctuat-
ing in its numbers, some Members attending only a
' part of a day, and some attending one day and not
another, and some never appearing at all, until the
Committee. is to come to a division, and where all are
entitled to put questions, and to have a voice in every
part of the proceeding, and in every resolution of the
Committee, we say, it does not require a ghost to tell
us that the irregularity, interruption, repetition, and
dissatisfaction with the length and expense of the
proceeding, imperio-usly demand a remedy. Neverthe-
less, thirty Members who were upon this Committee
are altogether silent upon this subject, notwithstanding
the very prominent and pointed manner in which it
was brought under their notice. Can the canvass be
justified ? Can the irregularity of the attendance of
Members be justified ? Can the iiregular and disor-
derly course followed in these Committees be justi•
/fled ? Above all, can any excuse be made for a
Member who gives a vote, and this too depending
upon evidence, of which he never heard one tittle, and
to which, according to the witness above cited, even
when present, he appears to pay little attention.? If
the resolutions reported by this Committee had not
taught us otherwise, we should have conceived it alto-
gether impossible for any thirty gentlemen, or so many
of them as attended this Committee, to have heard
such evidence, and not have expressed their reproba-
tion of the canvass, and all the other mal-practices
attending the present constitution of Committees.
There may be a difficulty how a good constitution can
be given to Committees, but there can be neither
doubt nor difficulty in saying that such mal-practices
as were proved before this Committee should cease to
exist, and they must cease, and means must be devised
for this purpose.
The unsatisfactory result attending the labours of
this Committee, leads to another consideration. It
was a Committee of inquiry. It was composed of
thirty members, and few committees of inquiry are
composed of less. Is so numerous a Committee cal-
culated to promote the due prosecution of any inquiry ?,
Is the mode of their proceeding at all calculated to
arrive at a knowledge of the whole circumstances of
the case ? Let the present Committee serve as an in-
stance. Were the facts attending the bad constitu-
tion of Committees, even as a matter of expense,
brought out by the questions put ? Let the questions
as put afFord the answer. The first witness is asked,
ct What in your opinion Occasions the greatest unne-
cessary expense attending the progress of private bills ?"
It was in answer to this question that this witness
among other things, spoke the words which we have
cited. He was the fourteenth witness examined. His
examination took place on the sth of May, and the
Committee first met on the 17th of March. They
had had six previous sittings, and had examined
thirteen witnesses before
_the facts were brought out
which are adverted to by this witness ; in truth the
most important of all which occurred in the course of
their inquiry. But this Committee had eight sittings
afterwards, in the course of which they examined
twelve more witnesses. The facts disclosed by the
first witness in regard to the bad constitution of Com-
mittees, even as a matter of expense, it was natural to
think would have induced the.n to put questions which
might have tended to shake or confirm his testimony.
But no, there was not a question of this kind put.
The question which brought out the opinion of the
second witness was one explanatory of a former one.

He was desired " to state wherein the difficulties ex-
isted which he had encountered," to which he an-
swered, " The chief - difficulty arises in the formation
of, and proceedings. in, Committees on private bills."
Then the question is put " Do you mean the Com-
mittee after the second reading,. or on the petition ?"
To which question he answers, " I mean the Com-
mittee upon the Bill," his opinion in regard to which
he states. And the evidence of the last•witness which
we have cited was given in answer to a question ex-
planatory of his opinion of a scale of fees, so that, but
for accident, the most important facts whit appeared
in the course of this inquiry would not have appeared
at all, and even when they were stated by one witness,
they were not prosecuted by the Committee I We
here pause for the present.

Our readers will find among our advertisements a
well-drawn up Letter addressed to the Churchwardens
and Overseers charged with the relief of the Poor,
by Mr. CHADWICK, Secretary to the Commis-
sion. We would advise our cotemporary the Times
—and we can assure him we do so, from the
best of motives, a tender concern for his .health
—not to peruse this document, for it will assur-
edly have the effect of throwing him into fits. Any
thing, whether immediately or remotely connected with
the Poor Law Commission, now afflicts our cotemporary
to such a degree ; so deranges that enviable pla-
cidity of temper, that sound judgment, and lofty
disinterestedness, which, in common with delighted
Europe, we have so often dwelt on with admiration in
his columns, that we live in daily apprehension of hear-
ing that a strait-waistcoat has been introduced, among
other curiosities, into the sanctum sanctorum of
Printing-house Square. We say this, not in a
spirit of thoughtless levity, but—as Mr. O'CONNELL
would observe—of " sober sadness." God knows !
we are in no humour to joke on so melancholy
a theme—the more especially, as we perceive
in the Times of this morning the most alarming
and unequivocal symptoms of what mad-doctors call
" incipient insanity." Let our readers only peruse
our cotemporary's parallel between Mr. CHADWICK
and HOMER-a Phoenix and Lord BROUGHAM..-Mr.
NictioL s and CATO-Mr. F. LEWIS and the Rule
of Three—and then ask themselves, whether they can
hesitate an instant as to the sanity of the wits that
produced it ! Many an Inquisition de Lunatic° In-
quirendo has been summoned to decide on a case far
less questionable than this. It is really a most heart-
rending affair.

We direct attention to the report of some inquests
recently held in the King's Bench prison, which will
be found in another column.

We regret, with " Veritas," the delay in bringing
forward the Bill for abolishing imprisonment for debt
except in cases of fraud; but the delay is not alto-
gether attributable to Government. Circumstances
intervened since the Bill was first announced which
put it entirely out of their power to carry a measure
of such paramount importance during the last Ses-
sion ; but we have no doubt whatever that the At-
torney-General will introduce a Bill next Session to
relieve the debtor, while it protects the creditor (the
chief difficulty), and such as will be consonant to the
present enlightened views of society.
After reading the details in the report alluded to,
one cannot forbear asking what advantage does the
creditor derive from the working of the present demo-
ralising system ? Does he get payment of his debt ?
no ; for imprisonment makes the poor yet poorer by
depriving him of all opportunity of exertion. Does it
put a stop to improvidence ? no ; for the temptation
of credit is too strong for the distant terrors of a gaol,
as is daily and hourly evinced by the multitudes that
become its victims. What then is the advantage of
this boasted credit which is to be upheld by madness,
misery, and death. Why, it holds out a premium to
extravagance, and enables the shopkeeper to tempt
that money from men's thoughtlessness, which he would
seldom gain were payment to follow immediately upon
the purchase ? , And ale we not to look a little to the
other side ? Is all our compassion to be reserved for the
creditor ? He who buys does so on his own responsibi-
lity, nor,however bad the article may prove,has he any re-
medy but never to return to the same vendor. The law ex-
pects, and with reason, that every man should use his
own judgment in his traffic. It refuses all protection
to ignorance or carelessness ; but if the one party is to
buy upon his own responsibility, it is only fair that
the other should sell upon the same footing. There is
no more difficulty to the merchant in ascertaining the
soundness of his customer, than there is to him who
buys in discovering the soundness of his purchase.
Surely it is an infamous law that punishes a debtor
more severely than a felon. The thief, when he has
undergone his allotted punishment, is a free man ; and
if he suffers in his person, his property, at least, is
exempt. Not so the poor wretch who has bought and
cannot pay. First of all, he is imprisoned for two
mouths—then he is robbed of all his property above
twenty pounds--and, finally, when he is released,
the hand of the law is still upon him ;
he is still a debtor : the slave, if he works
at all—must toil for his task-master ; but this
he will not do. He who has been torn from his
family to rot for months in a gaol, and is then turned
out upon the world with no property, save the clothes
upon his back, is apt to believe that he has paid his
debts in full. Shylock has had his pound of flesh, and
has no claim upon the ducats too. And is not the
debtor right ? But, right or wrong, such will be the
result—the creditor has gained nothing—the debtor
has lost all, and society, in too many cases, has ex-
changed an useful citizen for a pauper or a vagrant.