The Sun.
London, England, 1851-04-15 00:00:00

taccessary then for him to enter into details to show that
eoie sureption of dear coffee had fallen off. The Chan-
of the' P
Chan-
tin •—Neb. quer could not deny that the diminu-
-6;0,111 the consumption of coffee since 1847 had been
teuoOlbs. That Wan' not caused by the high p.rice. ofs
country,
nor
of consumption in this
wart
ttroyf wpaoswsearid to be in a state of great
be°Hear," from Members on the Ministerial
ati4 tyfriuthtee, tr:
took that statement from the Chancellor
Etehequcr.—(Laughter.) Tea was an article
the Len hecame most in competition with coffee; but though
propconsumption of tea had increased, still it was only in
eTrtion to the increase of the population, and its use
diminution
not be adduced as an argument to account for a
mution in the consumption of coffee.—( ricer, hear.)
The
r Cause of the diminution was the adulteration
that
had taken place, because there was a Treasury
tin.
It Lite sanctioning the adulteration of coffee.—(Hear.)
thes quite true the Treasury minute only permitted
adoption of chicory, but the Excise officers made
of distinction whether the adulteration wes
effected through chic n•y or any other article.
a was not only the colonial interest that remonstrated
galost that adulteration. Those engaged in the foreign
trade al ,
r3lO so objected to it. The Brazilians, as well as the
_,nsdsl coffee growers, protested against it. Ia his
ugrlttiloa it was a useless sacrifice of the revenue. Alt
of articles were used in the adulteration, and the
r_e,ea adulterating it thought they were quite justified
What they did, and he could hardly blame them f
they so when they found the Treasury minute saying
ttu night adulterate coffee with chicory. The con-
IC* by this meant was made to pay a high price for
toe, ad
article. If the consumer was permitted
hoestte the adulterated article at a low price he might
have so much reason to complain, but it was not so;
TterterPaid minagh price for an adulterated article. The
chicorypt cl,
ttah'llryte was issued in 1840, when coffee was
lel price, and the trade with China had been in-
thatuand tea was 3s. a pound. Then it was said
, might be allowed to be introduced because
he paid the same duty as if it were coffee. Why,
asked
terWere they to allow coffee to be adul-
oteaerd' and prohibited the adulteration of every
Etch e eiciseable article? The Chancellor of the
said he di want Excice prose-
cetions
quer
• Nobody did; but din the paper of that very day
teraccount of six prosacutions for the adul-
theatj'an of beer—why was there not a prosecution for
do adulteration of coffee? There were also prosecu-
cssfe9efar the adulteration of pepper—why not protect
W, in the same manner? He could not understand
4.7, unless that the Excise officers were afraid of the
121131 e • He could not understand this pertinacious op-
position on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
red' e withdrawal of the Treasury minute. As to the
adulteration,
of the duty it was not sufficient to prevent
teration, and the continuance of the present system
proenet, hi his opinion, fair to the honest trader, the
(lacer , and the consumer.—(Hear.)
Mr• PBINSEP was not,
eP the • ' he said, quite so ready to giv©
• e differential duty as the Hon. Gentleman who had
Just sat down. Coffee was an article that could not be
and i°
without great expense, in a particular climate,
relying
a particular situation, and for ten years arsons,
hten the differential duty, had been employed in
!engin .
gitto a state of cultivation in Ceylon. He did
8,4 k
that , for a double duty for their benefit; but he said
0,,,,t.11.0 duty ought to be abolished gradually, and they
tha't`" ,0 adopt the same course of proceeding with coffee
The
had followed with respect to sugar.
th "e CH of the EXCHEQUER said,
taeoat
'nog stated the grounds on which his proposition
tha "e on a former occasion, he could not do better
eoinnr,ePeat them at present. In 1846 the quantity of
c 2 lal coffee imported for home consumption was
ittheo,.ooolbs., and in 1850 it was 28,892,0001h5.; whilst
fella same period the consumption of foreign coffee had
a 4.10,000 0001bs. Then we had from these colo-
„es 0 _
i,onooolbS, of which there was consumed
eoloneio,iooolb's., and there was exported abroad of that
• ea_ et coffee from this country 3,500,0001b5. In that
aie'e the protecting duty was no advantage to their colo-
They produced more than was consumed here,
taheir
the protecting duty did not secure them the price for
tn article, for they had to sell it abroad. At the same
.5 the protecting duty excluded a very valuable de-
;ription of coffee. The reduction of the duty might
;„05 be a benefit to consumers here, whilst it did no -
''etr,3' to the colonial producer. As to the mixing the
that
with coffee, he had discussed the subject so often
no would not trouble the House again respecting it,
b'' r the more especially as the subject was to be again
ought forward in that House. He was convinced he
acl adopted that which was the best for the con-
Sumer, and would be no injury to the producers in the
colonies.
tls.r. HUME could state, from an examination into
s"le subject before a Committee, that it was very diffi-
'4ll to distinguish the difference between pure coffee and
eaeae mixed with chicory. There was great adulteration
Practised with other articles. He was sure one-third of the
sugar used in this country was adulterated—adulterated
for instance, with arrow-root and other things. Pepper
else was greatly adulterated. Upon principle he ha no
Objection to the mixture of chicory with coffee, if
the
Parties purchasing it liked to have it so mixed. He would
tot prevent the sale of chicory, but he would prevent
grocers selling chicory as coffee. A sample of pure
coffee and of coffee adulterated with chicory had been
forwarded to him. He had tried both, and had found
Very little difference between them.—(Hear.) For a
long time Hunt's roasted corn mixed with chicory and a
small portion of pure coffee had been found very palatable
by a great many people. He would not prevent the use of
it or of chicory, and hoped the time would come when
free trade would be so far extended as to render excise
duties and the interference of excisemen unnecessary.
Mr. STANLEY wished to say a few words as to the
difficulties under which the producer of colonial coffee
laboured when compared with the foreign grower. In
our West Indian possessions the production of coffee
had all but ceased. The foreign countries that competed
with us were Arabia, Java, Porto Rico, Cuba, and Bra-
-14:,11. But the real competition was with Brazil. In all
that chiefly related to the growth of coffee—in soil, cli-
taste, and labour, Brazil possessed considerable advan-
tages over Ceylon. In Ceylon the soil was thin, gravelly
and cold. Compared with Brazil, the land fit for the
Frowth of coffee in Ceylon was of limited amount, while
L.L.,11 Brazil there was an unlimited extent of alluvial land.
Every one knew that slave labour existed in Brazil, and
he believed that no sort of labour was so cheap when the
Public opinion of the country was not opposed to it. In
.treeylon, where the great mass of the population were
4l'andian, the greatest difficulty was found in inducing
them to labour. Coolies were sometimes employed, but
nevertheless the coffee estates were never more than half
supplied with labour. It appeared from a statement with
,Which he had been furnished that the wages of Coolies
r 41,1 Ceylon were 20s. a month, including lodging. To
might be added 7s. to Bs. as the price of food. The
ce,eat of clearing land in Ceylon was much greater than in
Brazil. In Ceylon it was not less than 31., while in Brazil it
Was not more than 255. or 30s. an acre. The coffee region in
Ceylon was inland and mountainous, and the expense of
transporting coffee to the coast varied trom ss. to Bs. 6d.
per ervt., while in Brazil it was only 2s. 2d. The voyage
real Brazil was one of two months, while from Ceylon
itwaa one of four or five months, and the freight from
Brazil was from 275. to 30s. a ton, while from Ceylon
it
was 31., had been 51., and even 71. 10s. a ton. He had
Mentioned these facts merely to show the difficulty—he
might almost say the impossibility—of the Ceylon
plater being able to compete with the planter of Brasil
the duties on foreign and colonial coffse were equalised.
tras
Mr. LABOUCHERE did not think that the House
Prepared to uphold protective duties on colonial as
againsta foreign coffee. The present moment, in the opi-
r,l°ll of many, was favourable to making the equali-ation
Proposed, The Hon. Member had alluded to the ad-
7'tago which Brazil possessed over Ceylon, in the sup-
ply of of slave labour. He differed from the opinion which
1:100. Member entertained on that point. Every one
k 0 had paid attention to what was Ong on in Brazil).
how insecure the whole system of slave labour
n
that country was. He regretted that the Hon. Member
;need to think that it was impossible for the cultivator
ineefu4o w. ith free labour to compete with the cultivator
, countries having slave labour. The Hon. Member
'aft also expressed an opinion that a discriminatingduty
veught to be imposed in favour of Ceylon, otherwise the
;flee plantations would cease to be cultivated. But that
as an old, worn-out, and exploded argument.
tOir.
A CARDWELL, in allusion to what had fallen from
valt en. Member for Montrose, said that the practice of
ara-ap'epratieg coffee had not only discouraged the fair
by A.' "at had caused a considerable loss to the revenue
sirtiViitthing the amount of the coffee consumed.
• BARING air, that when he was Chancellor of
the -Each s made of the adultera-
tion of ti,cloors complaints were
for coffee, and orders were consequently given to en-
a ee the law. Deputations from the trade then came,
told him that there were two classes in the trade—
ase who were honest and obeyed the law, and those
who ,
Practised adulteration; but they said they could
frame 00 Excise regulation which would not interfere
with trade
and that the only course was to place all OH
to like footing, and to suspend the regulation of the
Excise which prevented adulteration.
~,,,,
•WAKLEY asked why the Government should
The adulteration in the particular article of coffee?
'he Hon. Member for Montrose had said that he could
• !lot discover the difference between coffee and chicory.
But there was no difficulty in detecting the one article
from the other by the microscope. At present the dis-
honest trader profited by the proceedings of the Go-
vernment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer ought un-
uesitatingly to withdraw the minute of 1840. He had
heaitatinn in saying that chicory was unwholesome,
and that its constant consumption was attended with
Pernicious consequences.
After a few worsts from Mr. LOCKHART,
Lord C. HAMILTON hoped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would yield to the advice of the Hon. Mem-
her for Finsbury, who spoke with some authority on this
point, and withdraw the Treasury minute of 1840. He
Was astonished that a gentleman professing the free-
tree],
h principles of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
`'tlelel do anything to favour the consumption of
an
article fraudulently sold as another article, and, ac-
cording to best medical authorities, deleterious in its
nature,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
them
If ,
fi were strong medical opinions in favour of chicory
e believed chicory to be noxious and deleterious, he
Would not be justified in doing anything to encourage its
'consumption; hut that was not his belief.
_ WAKLEY said, in explanation, that those who
rid chicory by wholesale adulterated it to a groat ex-
tent with various articles, so that the trader who be-
lieved he was only mixing what he had purchased as
!,Illry with his coffee, was in fact amalgamating it with
ndeleterious compound. The Right Hon. Gentleman
,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had suffered from ill-
health last year; he (Mr. Wakley) feared very much
il..e Right Hon. Gentleman's coffee was too strong—
itlestughter)—and that his illness was owing to his hay-
g taken too much of an unwholesome ingredient.
The resolution was thou put And agreed to.

Mr. BERNAL then read the resolution on the timber
duties, which was passed without a discussion.
The House, then reeumed,
The CHAIRMAN reported progress. Repot to be
received to-morrow (this day).
SUPPLY.—THE NEW HOUSE OF CO AIxIONS.
On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Sir DE LkCY EVANS, pursuant to notice, called
the attention of the House to the present condition of
the new House of Common:. His Noble Friend the
Member for Beth had recently put some questions on
that subject which had drawn his attention to it, and in
consequence he (Sir Do L. Evans) had paid a visit to
the new House of Commons, where he coweesed he had
been much surprised by seeing the progress made and
making in that which was reeled the ornamental por-
tion of the House. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had put a stop to'ail that work for the present, and he
thought the House ought to be very much obliged to
him for it. The Hon. Member for Lancaster (M. r.
Greene) had, it appeared, gone out of town for a
few
days, and Mr. Barry, the architect, had thereupon set
about carrying on his notions of ornament. There were
introduced innumerable painted shields and gilded eery-
ings, notwithstanding it had been well understood that
the place wis to be as plain as possible, and furnishing
as marked a contrast as might be with the gorgeous and
gaudy ornaments of the H use of Lords.—(Hear, hear.)
Instead of the chamber being like one for the delibera-
tion of men of the 19th century, it was more like the in-
terior of a monastery of the 16th. When remedying
a defect in the House with respect to facility of
hearing in it—a matter which should have been
originally considered and celcultved on—it had
been found necessary to lower the ceiling, and in doing
that the windows had been half closed, thereby injuring
the light of the House. He hoped the Hon. Member
for Lancaster would be able to tell them how all those
changes occurred. He understood that the architect
alleged that he never understood the House to express
any opinion upon this matter ; but if it was not formally
expressed, he maintained that such an opinion was im-
plied. The architect, however, having been entrusted
with the construction of the Houses of Parliament,
thought he was more responsible to posterity for his
work than to the present generation.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to know also whether the 8,500/.
voted last year for the expense of the alterations was a
sufficient sum for that purpose, or whether it had been
exceeded?
Mr. GREENE said, with respect to the sum alluded
to, Mr. Barry had been required by the Commissioners
to make an account; but as the work had not been yet
finished and measured it would be impossible to say
what was the exact amount expended. In reply to the
question of the Gallant Officer he should say that it was
his impression when he left London that the Hence of
Commons should be finished in the plainest possible
manner, and with as great a contrast to the House of
Lords as possible.—(Hear.) On that subject he had re-
ceived a written communication from Mr. Barry, in which
he had stated that he was not aware of any particular wishes
of the House with respect to the internal decoration of the
new House. He (Mr. Greene), however, confessed that he
had been surprised at the nature of the work proceeded
with, and was thankful to the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer for having stopped the work. The ceiling was
so. far finished that they did not think they would be justi-
fied in scraping it off; and with respect to the shields
hung round the House, their judgment had been sus-
pended until the lower part was finished. He confessed
he did not approve of the course adopted by the Com-
mittee. He thought the House would have been better
if left as it was, having only widened the galleries.
There would be no want of hearing then in his opinion.
In the matter of light. however, he did not conceive
there would be any difficulty. They never felt want of
light in the present House.l But, indeed, the greater part
of their business was carried on by candle-light.
Mr. WAKLEY asked whether any instructions,
printed or written, had been sent to Mr. Barry with re-
spect to the decorations of the House?
Mr. GREENE said no such instructions had been
issued.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
when the experimental roof had been resolved on it was
not intended to have it ornamented. Indeed he under-
stood that the whole of the building was to be as plain
as possible, and that no further decoration was to be
introduced. However, when he found it had been other-
wise, he at once gave orders to have a stop put to the
work.—(Hear.)
Sir B. HALL said a distinct understanding existed
that the estimates furnished for the proposed alterations
were not to be exceeded. The arms to be introduced in
some of the shields, he understood, were to be the bo-
roughs of England. Now, as he represented a not un-
important one—which, however, not being a corporation,
had no arms—(Laughter)—he would not regret if that
plan were abandoned. He thought that the alterations
would be found to be satisfactory; but the question then
arose when the Members were to occupy the new House?
—(Hear, hear.) The longer they were out of it the
greater the expense would be.—(Hear.)
Mr. GREENE said he had been informed there was
a possibility of going into the new House after the
Whiteuntide recess; but the walls of the lobbies and
passages might net be perfectly dry by that time. There
theirc
apartments which they that
onsidetattonthefa factwouldthe library
andwas otheral necessaryf''r
are still unfinished. lie did not think it would be quite
convenient to them to occupy the House before next
ession.

Si!. D. NORREYS denied that Mr. Barry had ever
received any instructions with respect to the ornament
of the House. As they had adopted a certain style with
respect to architecture, they should have the details
and ornaments carried out in a similar taste, otheraise
they would be acting in a most absurd manner. As the
House had chosen to adopt this style of architecture,
Mr. Barry was quite right in adopting the style of
decoration in unison with it, and had therefore been
improperly stopped. He was not Mr. Barry's advo-
cate—he believed Mr. Barry had committed more
faults than any other architect—(Hear, and laughter)—
but he considered as Mr. Barry had perfected himself in
that style of education which the country had prescribed
he ought not to be censured for carrying out its prin-
ciple. He differed from the opinion of the Hon. Member
for Lancaster about the uncoloured heraldic decorations.
He was at a loss to conceive how the idea of heraldic
decorations was to be carried out without using colour.
He did not agreed with the Honourable Member (Sir
De Lacy Evans) with respect to the fault he found about
the decorations. He believed the decorations to be
suitable, and in character with the design of the build-
ing. He would call the attention of the House to the
wording of the motion of the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Westminster. The words of the motion went to im-
pugn the professional reputation of the architect em-
ployed by that Rouse, inasmuch as the motion would
lead persons to believe that the architect was acting in
opposition to trie wishes of the House and the nation.
He considered it was not fair towards Mr. Barry to
create such an impression.
Lord DUNCAN said if colouring was necessary, then
Hon. Members had good reason to be dissatisfied with
the House prepared for their reception last year. Then
there was no colouring used; now, colouring was in pro-
fusion. tie wanted to know where the expense was to
end? The first estimate was for about half a million;
that sum had extendsd to more than two millions, and
the Houses were not finished yet. He had been looking
over some estimates lately, and the first item that struck
him was the expense of the Orange street Water Works,
for furnishing with water the new Houses of Parlia-
ment. when finished, He found that the supply was to
be 260,000 gallons per day while the House was sitting,
ar d 160.000 for the time when the House was not sitting.
The supply was a larger supply than a town of 14,000
inhabitants required.—(H'ar, hear.)
Mr. HUME had, some time ago, urged the House to
dismiss Mr. Barry. After upwards of two millions had
been spent the works appeared to be as far as ever from
completion. As long as Mr. Barry could get money
for alterations there w-uld be no end to the expense.
The Hen. Member (Sir D. Norreys) had let out the
secret—Mr. Barry had to finish his education.—(No.)
He understood the Hon. Member to say something to
that effect. But he must remind the House his pre-
dictions respecting Mr. Barry had been fulfilled. He
said years ago, if Mr. Barry was not controlled he would
construct the House of Commons in the same gewgaw
style as he had constructed the House of Lords. The
House was properly served for not taking effectual steps
on the subject at the time he gave that warning. He
did not, however, exclusively blame Mr. Barry; he
blamed th- Committee even more for not having all the
estimates before them before they incurred the endless
expense.
Colonel RAWDON said he had been requested by
Mr. Barry to place his answer to the various complaints
before the House. The Hon. and Gallant Member lead
the following letter:—
" Mr. Barry has not been made acquainted with any
declared wishes on the part of the Members of the
House as to the decorations of the new House sef Com-
mons, and knows nothing of the existence of such a
declaration collectively or individually. Mr. Barry is
not persisting.in carrying into effect the so-called' in-
ternal decorations of the House, which was suspended
on its being objected to by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. Heraldry is absolutely essential to the charac•
ter and the full expression of the Tudor style of
the design adopted by Parliament, and it is the only
means of giving historic interest to it, which, iu a great
national edifice devoted to the purpose of the New Palace
at Westminster, is most desirable for many reasons. A
display of heraldry and suitable historic decorations has
always formed an essential feature of the design and esti-
mates of the building, sanctioned by Parliament, and I
have never received any intimation, either written or
verbal, to forego the use of it."
He supposed, therefore, that all these decorations had
been sanctioned by Parliament, and that he was justified
in what he was now doing.
Sir R. INGLIS admitted the original estimate was
much below two and a half millions; but expenses not in-
cluded in those estimates had to be incurred—for an em-
bankment, for a high tower to promote ventilation, for
the purchase of house property, and for the erection of
ao
other building
facade,r
int
richer and more extensive than that of any
he
any other country in Europe. He be-
lieved the money already expended was not more than
half the sum stated. It was due to Mr. Barry to state
that ho was correct in his original estimates, and that he
had not dealt with twice as much as the sum put down in
his estimates. He denied that the House had ever ex-
pressed a formal opinion, and there was nothing on the
journals of the House to show it, on the subject of the
decoration of the House. He felt it due to Mr. Barry's
reputation to make this statement.
Lord C. HAMILTON recalled the attention of the
Hon. Baronet to the statement just made that a con-
versation had passed between Mr. Barry and the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer on the suhjeet of the decora-
tions. It was not exactly proper, although ho admitted
the tenderness that ought to preva'l in speaking of a
gentlemen in his absence, to hold out to the House a
statement that because no formal resolution appeared on
the journals the architect WAS justified in persisting in

his objectionehle decorations. He agreed with the Hon.
Member fit Montrose that Mr. Barry was not so much
to blame as aseerecd. The Committee were to blame
for not having in the first instance full estimates find
limits from the architect. He hoped that the Committee
would take care to have estimates for what was yet to
be done.
Lord R. VANE hoped the Hon. Member opposite
(Mr. Greene) would come to some understanding with
the Commissioners on the subject.
Mr. J. E. DENISON said that the great question
they had to consider was, who were the parties respon-
sible for the management of that building and of the ex-
penditure upon it. Nothing appeared to him more irre-
gular than the whole of the proceedings in that matter,
and he entertained a strong opinion that the manage-
ment of the works ought to be placed under the control
of some responsible authority.
Mr. FRE WEN said that on the 28th of March he
had given notice that he should, on the motion for going
into Committee of Supply, bring under the considera-
tion of the House the distress which prevailed in the
hop-growing districts of Sussex. That notice did not,
however, appear in the votes of that day, and he
wished to know whether he could then bring forward
his motion ?
Toe SPEAKER said that as the notice did not ap-
pear on the paper of that day, the Hon. Member
could not bring it forward. He believed it had become
a dropped order, and that the Hon. Member had omitted
to renew it.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said he thought it ex-
tremely -desirable that the House should know who
were the parties entrusted with the control of the
works in the new Houses of Parliament. -
Trio CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
his impression was that the Commissioners were respon-
sible for the control of the works. He believed that
the case which had been adverted to of works having
been undertaken without a proper sanction on the part
of th' Commissioners, had arisen from the fact that
one of their members, namely, his Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Lancaster (Mr. Greene), had been absent from
England at the time, and that another of them had been
laid up by illness.
Mr. GrREE NE said that the arrangement upon the
subject was that the Commissioners should have the con-
trol of the works, suoject, however, to the approval of
the Lords of the Treasury with regard to the cost of
them. The case of which a complaint had been made
had arisen from the circumstance just stated by his
Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
He believed that Mr. Barry must have misunderstood
the language which he (Mr. Greene) had used upon
the subject.
Mr. G. BANKES said that as the cost of these works
was subject to the approval of the Lords of the Trea-
sury, it appeared to him that they were the parties re-
sponsible for any improper outlay. He believed that the
wishes of the Committee of last session, with respect to
the new chamber for the Members of that House, had
not been fully complied with. The windows of that
chamber had been painted, and as the windows had also
been reduced in size, the consequence was that the room
was at present so dark that one could hardly read in it
in the noonday.
Mr. HUME said he wished to know whether the
Commissioners had required Mr. Barry to give in any
estimate of the cost of the decorations of the new House
of Commons?
Mr. GREENE said he was not able at the moment to
answer that question. The fact was, that thd arrange-
ments with respect to the new House of Commons had
been left very much in the hands of the Committee ap-
pointed by the House to conduct the matter.
Mr. HUME said it had been proposed that there
should be an inquiry into the circumstances which had
attended the massacre of the dyaks in Borneo; and he
wished to ask whether it would not be just and proper to
suspend the payment of the head-money until the House
should have decided whether or not that inquiry should
be instituted?
The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member could not
then put that question.
Sir F. BARING said he hoped he might be allowed
to answer the question, although it was somewhat irre-
gular. The fact was that the Government had no
power of stopping the payment of that money, which
they were hound to pay under the provisions of the Act
of Parliament.
SUPPLY.—THE ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply on the army estimates, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
A vote of 14,6061. was passed for the charge of re-
ward for distinguished services of officers and sergeants.
A vote of 42,0001. for the pay of general officers was
agreed to.
A vote of 52,5001. for the full pay of reduced and re-
tired officers was also adopted.
A vote of 377,000/. having been proposed for the half
pay of reduced and retired officers,
Mr. HUME said he wished to know how many ol
those officers were capable of returning to the service?
Mr. F. MAULE raid he believed that the proportion
of those officers fit fur service was very small indeed.
But considerable reductions had of late years taken place
in that vote. Since the year 1835 the number of the
men had been reduced from 5.671 to 3,130, and the cost
had been reduced from 585,000/. to 377,0001.
After a few words from Mr. W. WILLIAMS, the
vote was agreed to.
38,9931. for foreign half-pay and pensions.
Mr. RUME said the longevity of these officers was ap-
parently so great that some doubt arose as to their ac-
tual existence.
Mr. P. MAULE said every precaution was taken to
identity these officers, the greatest part of whom lived in
Hanover.
Mr. HUME was suspicious of all foreign pensions
since, iu 1834, he had seen a pension payable from the
period of the edict of Nantes.
Mr. F. MAULE said, that since 1835 half of the list
had been removed by death.
122,717/, for widows' pensions.
88,5001., for the Compassionate Fund, for allowances
to ,officer'.' widows.
35,413 L. for Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.
Mr. HUME said there was a difficulty in computing
the number of persons in these hospitals, while an im-
mense staff was maintained in each. He thought the
time was come when they could be dispensed with, and
the men get their out-pensions.
In reply to Lord NAAS,
Mr. F. MAULE said he certainly had not issued the
same order in respect to Chelsea Hospital which he had
issued with respect to Kilmainham Hospital.
Mr. W. W ILLIAMS said the cost of the officers of
the hospital at Chelsea was 9,0001., while the vote for
the hospital was only 26,0001.
After a few words from Colonel DUNNE, the vote
was agreed to.
1,233,0501. for the charge of the out-pensioners of
Chelsea Hospital, discharged negro soldiers, and Hano-
verian soldiers.
Mr. WAKLEY asked how many of the Hanoverian
pensioners were alive?
Mr. F. MAULE could not tell, but there were not
many.
The vote was agreed to.
37,500/. for retired allowances, compensations, super-
annuations, &c.
Colonel CHATTERTON complained that justice was
not done to the cavalry officers in command of regiments
as regarded allowance for forage. He thought small
tenements for married soldiers inside the walls of bar-
racks would be more satisfactory than model lodging-
houses, such as were proposed by the Right Hon. Secre-
tary-at- War, inasmuch as though they would pay Is. 2d.
per week for them they would have the advantage ol
coals and candles.
Mr. J. A. SMITH suggested that there should be day
rooms established in the barracks for the soldiers, as
they were already in every other service in Europe. The
want of them drove the soldier to the public-house. The
ventilation of the soldiers' sleeping rooms should also be
attended to.
Mr. F. MAULE did not think the pay of cavalry offi-
cers was lower in proportion than that of other officers.
It was desirable to separate married from single soldiers
in respect of barrack accommodation, but he could not
recognise the claim of marriage except in a certain
number of instances, otherwise the whole army would
get married. As respects day rooms, there were day
rooms already in the barracks, but they were certainly
too small, and any extension of the accommodation that
could be afforded on that point would be willingly
adopted.
Colonel DUNNE considered that military men were
by no means highly rewarded.
Mr. HENLEY begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, whether he would have any objection to furnish a
return of the comparative cost of the cavalry and artil-
lery horses, for though each individual horse for the
cavalry was purchased at a cost of 261., while the cost of
each artillery horse was 311., still the whole artillery
service stood at a much less sum than the cavalry service?
Mr. F. MAULE said he should be happy to furnish
any information on the subject which the lion. Member
desired.
The vote was then agreed to, and the House resumed.
EXPENSES OF PROSECUTIONS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time.
On the motion that the Bill do pass,
Mr. BANKES suggested a postponement of the stage,
for the purpose of including conspiracy, in cases of mis-
demeanour within the scope of the Bill. Ho had known
conspiracies in his own district for the purpose of raising
the price of bread to the poor.
might
GREY
au notnrdg e b
contrasted
be
observedthe so
necessity easy
that
to
theo
deal.
Sir
conspiracy in cases of
Mr. WAKLEY reminded the Hon. Gentleman that
this had also been the object of a powerful party, with
whom
Sir Git.
felony was included in the Bill.
stateo of
appointing
of
A'ph;:osnecUuNtoirE,
Scotland, observing that three criminals escaped in the
former country for one in the latter.
England
licwithThe Bill then passed.
The Stamp Duties Assimilation Bill then passed
through Committee.
The Exchequer-bills (17,756,6001.) Bill passed through
Committee.
On the motion of air. W. WILLIAMS, certain re-
turns were ordered of the public income and expendi-
ture of the United Kingdom for the years 1849, 1850,
and 1851.

THE ORGAN NUISANCE.

Colonel SIBTHO RP moved for a copy of the instruc-
tions given by the Commissioners of the Police to the
police officers relative to the preventing obstructions and
other nuisances caused by the large travelling barrel.
organs and advertising vans in and about the metropolis.
The Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State
for the Homo Department on the 21st of March had in-
formed him that an order had been issued by the Com-
missioners of Police to stop all music in the streets
which caused an obstruction of the public thorough-
fares. He had since that time received a letter from
a gentleman, who informed him that he had been in
eorrespondence with the chief office, and had been in-
formed by the authorities there that no such orders

had been issued, inasmuch as the Commis'sloners had no
legal au3writy to issue them. The Honourable and
Gallant Member then cited some cases is whiall serious
accidents had been occarsioned through the isrge travel.
ling barrel-organs and travelling vans, and expressed a
hope that summary means would be taken to put a stop
to the nuisance.
Sir G. GREY said he was perfectly willicg to do all
that he could, consistently with law, to p: event the nui-
sance of which the Hon. Member cornplaited. It was
certainly stated in the public papers that orders had been
issued by the Commissioners to stop street music, and
the Commissioners stated that they had no such power;
but that any person, on the ground of illness in his
family or any other reasonable cause, might compel
street musicians to desist from playing before his house
under a penalty. The order issued on the 21st ult. was
not to prohibit all street music, bat to stop it where it
was calculated to occasion impediment or obstruction, or
danger to life. He had no objection to grant the return
moved for.
Mr. BROTHERTON defended street musician:.
Agreed to.
ST. ALBAN'S ELECTION.
Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition from 11. Ed-
wards, praying (as we understood) to be heard in his
justification. He begged to move that it be printed with
the votes, for the purpose of being considered to-morrow
(this day).—Agreed to.
The House then adjourned at One o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, April 14.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on tha Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.

PETITIONS.
The Bishop of EXETER presented several petitions
against Papal aggression.
Lord C AMPBELL presented petitions from several
places in Scotland to the same effect.
The Earl of EGLINTON presented several petitions
to the same effect.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHELL presented several
petitions from places in Ireland to the same effect.
The Earl of GLENGALL presented several petitions
from places in Tipperary to the same effect.
The Earl of HARROWBY presented petitions from
places in Staffordshire and Cheshire to the same effect.
COUNTY COURTS.
Lord BROUGHAM moved for certain returns re•
lating to the county courts respecting the fees received.
He considered that it was most unjust to demand from
suitors that they should not only have to pay for the ad-
ministration of justice to themselves, but that they should
have to provide for the expenses of the administration of
justice to others who should come after them. It was
entirely contrary to the principles laid down by Mr.
Bentham, and in the justice of which all were agreed.
He would take the opportunity of stating that the num-
ber of casts in which the matter in dispute was above
10/. 'Which had been decided by the county courts was
32,000. The Noble and Learned Lord then asked in what
state of forwardness was the Criminal Law Digest ?

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that without no-
tice lie could not answer the question.
CHURCH BUILDINGS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
The Earl of CARLISLE moved the second reading
of this Bill. The Bill was founded upon a report which
had met with the approval of the two Archbishops, the
Earl of Harrowby, and several other members of the
Church Building Commission. The object of the Bill
was to amend the law relating to church buildings, and
to give to the Church Building Commission the power
of regulating pew rents, and of securing free sittings to
the poorer members of the Church in all new churches.
The report expressed a desire that Parliament should deal
with the question of church-rates, but as the touching of
that subject might lead to irritation the Bill did not pro-
pose to deal with it.
The Earl of POWIS made some observations, but in
so low a tone that even their purport could not be caught
in the gallery.
After a few words from Lord STANLEY,
The Bill was read a second time.
RATINGS IN IRELAND.
Lord MONTEAGLE rose to present, according to
notice, a petition from landowners of Kerry on the sub-
ject of local assessments for the construction of railways
in the south of Ireland. It was essential that their
Lordships' attention should be directed to this subject.
Their Lordships had on a former occasion entertained a
Bill for opening the line from Dublin to Cork, and this
was now one of the finest public works in Ireland. It
had been recommended in Mr. Drummond's report that
this line should be carried on to the west; that had
been undertaken by is company, but they had not
been enabled to complete the whole, and the petitioners
had consulted the localities, and had applied to the
grand juries of Kerry and Cork for assistance, and the
grand juries had unanimously decided on assisting from
their rates in the completion of that work, and the
question was whether Parliament was now disposed to
sanction that decision, and to authorise the advance-
ment of money from these rates to complete the
railway. In Galway a Government advance had
been made for the completion of railways, and the peti-
tioners asked that the counties might be permitted out
of their own resources to do that which the Govern-
ment had done for Galway. The proposed railway ran
through the poorest districts in Ireland, and the comple-
tion of this railway would furnish work to from 3,000 to
4,000 of that destitute population. He asked for no grant
of public money, but merely to use their own rates for
this purpose, which would give employment to the desti-
tute populaJion.
Lord REDESDALE admitted the importance of the
question. It was a question as to whether they should
rate the public at large for the benefit of private indi-
viduals. By this Bill the original projectors of the
railway proposed to get rid of 111. a share on their
origiaal proposal when the Bill was passed, and they
also proposed to take the power of borrowing upon
the security of advances from the county rate, instead of
upon their own subscriptions, and thus they proposed to
construct a line for their own profit, entirely upon the
responsibility of the county-rates. There was also, it
must be remembered, a line proposed to be con-
structed from Killarney to Valentia, a competing line, the
subscribers to which did not come to Parliament to seek
this power of taxing the counties which was sought for by
those whom the Noble Lord supported. He did not
think, unless further reasons were shown, that it would
be advisable to grant the prayer of this petition.
Earl GRANVILLEE deprecated the discussion of
general principles upon the presentation of petitions. He
agreed very much with what had fallen from both Noble
Lords. The Railway Commissioners declined giving
opinions on the merit of Railway Bills, merely pointing
out unusual provisions in them; there were unusual pro-
visions in this Bill, not in accordance with general rail-
way law. He admitted that great distress existed in the
county in question; but it was obvious that great care
should be taken in the case under notice, and it was the
duty of the Government to consider all the bearings of
the case, and in what form the subject could be brought
before Parliament.
The Earl of HARROWBY said there was such great
distress in that county that he was sorry any technical
rules of the House should stand in the way of its relief.
Earl GREY said there were two ways in which rail-
ways were of advantage—one in direct returns to the
proprietors, the other in opening up the land and so in-
creasing its value. Ireland had suffered so much for the
want of facilities for opening up the land that it might
be a matter of consideration for landed proprietors to
adopt the principle of the petition, which he, therefore,
thought ought not to be hastily rejected. He agreed
that measures founded on this principle—especially in
Ireland—should be scrutinised with the greatest care, so
as job.—(Hear, and laughter.)
ble d r e
was a
thought there was something
particular in the case, as it was not the company but the
LnnortdtoßbEeAcoumme a o
NT
rate-payers who petitioned the House to be permitted to
give a :guarantee upon the land. It would be a hard
case in his opinion, therefore, to refuse its prayer.
Lord STANLEY said it was generally admitted this
was a proposition of anexceptionalh have
ve
t he p o character,we r
of while
burden-
ing
the other hand there was a concurrence of opinion that
case made out for
a
sanctioning, in the instance of an Irish railway, a gua-
h e partiesthemselves, peti iaonndi n
tgh should
rantee of the county rates. The very body which now
petitioned would in the case of an ordinary road have
not alone the power of giving the guarantee in question,
but of raising and expending the money. It was, there-
fore to be considered whether in this peculiar case that
power should not be extended to railroads. It might
never cost the county a pennT. On these considerations,
he thought the case was one in which technical consider-
ations should not be adhered to, but that the work should
be considered as a public work.
The Earl of POWIS said that to reject this line would
be to give the Galway line an unfair preponderance.
With due precautions he considered the case had a claim
upon the indulgence of Parliament.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA. said the same principle
had been introduced into a Bill for making a railway
from London to Dover, but it was not permitted by Par-
liament. He thought, therefore, the principle, being a
new one, should be carefully considered before it was
adopted.
Lord REDESDALE explained,
Lord MONTEAGLE replied.
The subject then dropped.
BRITISH GUIANA.

Lord STANLEY then rose to lay before their Lord-
ships the petition of which he had given notice on a for-
mer evening, signed by a very large number of the in-
habitants of British Guiana, praying for a local legisla-
ture for that colony under representative government.
The petition, the Noble Lord observed, was in an unusual
form, that was to say, the several sheets of
which it was composed were not tacked together, as
was the custom, but bound; but he hoped that would
not interfere to prevent its reception by the House.
To that petition there were no fewer than
5,000 signatures; among which he saw not only names
familiar, no doubt, to the Noble Earl opposite, as those
of persons holding prominent positions in that colony,
but also names pertaining to all classes and denomina-
tions of c colonists—clergy, lonil sa ti:d—e
d proprietors,
c 1 e rg y
planters, and labourers.
, merchants, traders, barristers,
shopkeepers,
was sorry,education
inthe
however,coio colony
and among the colonists, that
o see, as regarded the progress
there were a large number of signatures made by marks
to this petition, and that the deficiency applied not alone
o Hef
to the labourers, but likewise to small freeholders, and,
stranger still, to persons engaged in trade, who might
naturally be supposed to have a knowledge of writing
sufficient to carry on their respective business. But he
was in a position, however, to state that the trades and
designations of the whole of these 5,000 petitioners were
given in the petition; and, moreover, in every case where
the signature was by a mark, the attestation of a respect-
able witness as to its genuine character was given in the
same column. He believed that a great number of the
lower class of the petitioners had signed this pe-
tition because it had been represented by cer-
tain parties that the views it contained were
not those of the colonial community at ,large, but of a
small set of persons who, under cover of the Act of the
Noble Earl opposite, were desirous to establish On OliA

yedsumt
tith ht Before.tesiehes.otact.he colony
proceeded, under
however,
state i n
thes! i -
t ution s.
I
l
subs4u.ee of tkus petition, auu csli the attention of their
lior:ships to its prayer, he should, with their Lordships'
pe.sinissiou, de sci ihe that which, no doubt, was a subject
familiar to the Noble Earl, and which was at one time
familiar also to himself (Lord Stanley), but which ho
believed not to be so familiar to their Lordships—
namely, the nature and condition of the existing consti-
tution of British Guiant. That constitution, he need not
s weoet, f oornmtehde oneo
et
threa
rmy dei
nl opf ti hn et
oßt r if tai
es
th,
cirgpr
.wnaorathf:
;a
set recetht mhiyei Ye in
t duwat tlhbuial
i
oy h ,
was
aul
oemun
ac
tet
rbe
yai
dns
tebot
dyh t acht t
the
v eou
rnh p t ih
o. c
aph
bu t
aobtained
bt t
hehu
erens
colony,
00e
lfr o thenthy
cessione:
Dutch government of the colony, and which was gua-
of
.that colony. There were two bodies, the Court of
Court of Policy ware chosen by an Electoral College,
l
divided into five districts, under a franchise that had
been formerly a high one, but had been recently
lowered. The Electoral College consisted of seven per-
sons; and when a vacancy occurred in the Court of Po-
licy, they (the College) selected two persons, whom they
recommended to the Court of Policy for the purpose of
choosing one of them to fill the vacancy in that court.
The Court of Policy, thus constituted, consisted of ten
members, of whom the governor and four official mem-
bers formed one-half, the casting vote resting with the
governor, who could thus practically decide every ques-
tion brought before the court. Practically speaking,
the Court of Policy was the sole legislative body of the
colony. No legislation could be carried on in the colony
except in that court. It had the whole control of the
legislation of the colony, and no legislation could be ori-
ginated by any other body; for although there was com-
bined with that court another body for the purposes of
financial legislation and taxation, that other body could
not of itself originate any legislative measure. Those
financial representatives were six in number, and, con-
joined with the Court of Policy, formed what was called
the Combined Court. The governor had the power of
arresting all legislation by ajourning the court sine die.
After that short sketch of the Legislature of Guiana,
their Lordships would be of opinion that it was not a
constitution in which the representative system largely
prevailed; and if it was their opinion that the colony
was fit for representative institutions, the remedy
lay not in a modification of the present system,
but in tho alteration of the system altogether
in accordance with the prayer of the petitioners.
tie was not aware what was the nature of the
alteration introduced in the system of the Noble Earl
in the year 1840; but he believed he was correct in say-
ing that whilst the constitution of the Court of Policy
and of the Combined Court remained unchanged, the
alteration consisted in an extension of the franchise, and
the substitution of open voting for the ballot. But
looking at the state of ignorance in which the greater
portion of the population were plunged, he was not
aware that the mode adopted of extending the franchise,
and lowering the qualification, was the best mode of in-
troducing a resemblance to British institutions. How-
ever, great discontent existed in the colony, and several
numerous and respectable meetings were held for the
purpose of obtaining representative institutions, and
from those meetings petitions were presented to the
Court of Policy, demanding a free representative system.
On the 3d of April a motion was made in the Court of
Policy, recommending that the present Legislature
should cease to exist, and should be replaced by a coun-
cilgmotrihet
aetertandemw.whe
aeoestusi
tsneglonfd
ias s epoam,sbsleyss
isounc
eh. a s
ot hna t t
hi ne B6atrhb ao df oiseisa ay nda
formedwas n
nofheldoot
r nominated
the
et
noticeGeorgetown,p n
hrapve s
having
gy
obft
he
organisingee
been
tct whichko
wenn .obafa
uct
tpho meaa
nni
if—.nervoleozffn.,escoaciti the changes desired in the constitution, but
council,
former petiturioncneeislo,,fthe demands of the people went further
elective council and an elective assembly. A petition to
that effect was presented to the Court of Policy, and that
same court, which refused to notice the petition of the
3d of April, came to a resolution on the 13th of June that
it was the opinion of the court that the legislative insti-
tutions of British Guiana were unsuited to the existing
state of society, that it was desirable they should be
abolished, and a house of assembly and legislative coun-
cil elected instead. If anything were wanting to show
what were the feelings of the colony on the matter, the
self•condemnation of that body thus given supplied it.
However, on the 18th of September the Government
submitted to the court a scheme, not for the purpose of
introducing direct representation into either branch of
the Legislature, but to increase from six to ten the num-
ber of additional representatives—to add one person to
the elected members of the Court of Policy in the person
of the Mayor of Georgetown. The governor having in
pursuance of his right adjourned the court, another
meeting was held in the interval, which was very nu-
merously attended, and from which a declaration and
petition emanated, to the effect that they were not sa-
tisfied with the modifications proposed by the governor,
and praying the establishment of representative institu-
tions upon the model of those of the other British colo-
nies. On the 30th of September a resolution, embracing
that principle, was proposed to the Court of Policy, and
that same court, which had in the first place refused to
notice the petition on the subject and in the next had
affirmed and passed a resolution to the effect of the
prayer of the petition, in the third place did not nega-
tive the resolution, but at a subsequent meeting, on the
Bth of October, got rid of it by substituting an
amend -
ment, to the effect that the court, acquiescing in
the propriety of not altering the constitution of the co-
lony for the present without the full consent of all classes
of the inhabitants, would abstain from legislation on the
subject until the memorialists had explained the details
of their plan of legislative representation, and declared
what would, according to it, constitute full, free, and di-
rect popular representation. There was a Court of Po-
licy which condemned its own constitution, there was a
general assent on the part of the colony to that con-
demnation, and a general declaration that they wished
to substitute an elective chamber and house of repre-
sentatives. Nothing could be more clear and distinct
than that proposition. He did not say whether the
state was such as to furnish materials for those two
Chambers, or whether one of them should be elective,
or nominated by the Crown. But if anything were re-
quired to test the feeling of the population of the colony
at large it was shown at an election at Georgetown of the
member to fill a vacancy in the College of Electors.
One of the candidates was chairman of the meetings
which had been held in favour of the establishment of
representative institutions ; the other belonged to the
party who took the opposite view ; and out of the 143
electors of Georgetown 124 voted in favour of the.
champion of representative institutions, and 24 in
favour of the advocate of the constitution as modified
by the Noble Lord opposite. Having laid before
their Lordships the facts of the case, he bad only to
say that the petitioners earnestly pressed on their Lord-
ships' House the spirit of discontent which the present
arbitrary system generated in the colony; they also
complained that, considering the present state of the
colony, the high price of the necessaries of life enhanced
the cost of living in a way which was severely felt by all
who were not in the receipt of Government pay, while
the pressure of taxation was not diminished; and it was
felt as an especial grievance by them that whilst their
own produce was subject • to most onerous competition
with others, and gave inadequate remuneration for their
labour, they were obliged, for the purpose of maintaining
the high rate of salaries of the official servants of the
Crown, to pay a heavy amount of taxation. He said
nothing with respect to the specific proposition of the
petitioners. He had riot the specific knowledge of the
colony which would enable him to say whether it
was proper or not to establish representative institu-
tions such as they prayed for; but if the colony was
in a state of advancing enlightenment—if there were a
considerable number of intelligent and educated men
amongst the inhabitants who desired a representative
system—they were bound to attend to their wishes,
not hastily, injudiciously, or incautiously, but to ap-
proximate as soon as they could their constitution to a
true representative system, not by any tinkering of a
kind contrary to the spirit of the British institutions, but
by introducing the principle of direct representation, re-
gard being had to laying the foundation of the popular
branch of the Legislature under such safeguards as might
be deemed necessary. Her Majesty's Government were
bound, in deference to the united freedom of the colo-
nists, to grant, under such modifications and restrictions
as they might think fit to impose, the principle of a
direct representative Legislature, so as to enable them to
exercise such control over their financial affairs and legis-
lation generally as was conceded to every colony as soon
as its condition was fit to take the management of its
own affairs. Without further observation, then, he com-
mended the petition to the attention of the Noble Earl
opposite, in order that he might see fit to substitute for
the old Dutch system which prevailed in the colony
something more like British institutions.
Earl GREY entirely conceded that the British colonies
should be allowed to enter upon the enjoyment of institu-
tions founded upon the model of those of this country, or
as soon as they were fit for them. But he could not
admit that the present petition expressed the general
opinion of all the colonists. On looking over the signa-
tures the Noble Lord would notice an absence of a large
proportion of the signatures of persons of weight in the
colony. Ho had before him some papers which were
laid before the other House in answer to an address,
amongst which was a dispatch from the governor, where-
in, speaking of a memorial addressed to the Court of
that that memorial failed to convince. him
Policy, which contained nearly the same si
nance and concurrence of the inhabitants of the colony
generally in its prayer, for of the signaturestlo,lnOsOnwere t e
e (Earl
the petition just presented by the Noble. Loathe ahteasrteasteads
marks of the London missionary. congregha gnconso-
ci! froma l a wGutana that the
basis; but so far were. the
parthi ough repeatedly a kd
agreeing upon that point, that
ed h 8 e amone. t emselves
to do so, they had never. yet would h
which gave the power to a
Grey) had always held that if there s ould be widee
what was the franchise they .
sen tative government at all, itnottue.edgshtiihttoharyteeh,si;ts.uapncodans
fromwas
it
e extreme of de-
other the re-es
population,
wass tablishment of
present
allliiticcwnted th coalition
of
two sepa-
ratesmall oligarchy, who represented the absent proprietors.
reeys
feponratmr wellt petitioneksn: otoawnt
state
emanated.oot fof t
hw ings,
Up to 1849 some six or seven persons possessed almost
all the political power of the. colony. At the present
time, looking at the population of British Guiana, he
doubted the expediency of' throwing. power into the
lstionfgEuropean descent, the
of 130,000 souls, of
nofotth;oproep
thanu.la
greater portion being persons who were formerly slaves,and
Africans recently landed from captured slavers, of coolies
from the East Indies, or Portuguese from Madeira; and so
ignorant were. .they that they were obliged to affix their
marks to their signatures. Besides, owing to the high
rate of. wages and the low value of land, persons of little
hands
which
euyc at i.on adopted verya rapidlypoeunethdacquired property; therefore, if
iary qualification it would throw
power into the hands of a very ignorant body of people,
and he did not think it expedient to make the franchise
such as would produce that result. On the other hand,

nothing could be more injurious to the real welfare of the
colony than to create an oligarchy such as formerly ex-
isted. It appeared to him, then, that the really judi-
cious course as gradually to improve existing institu-
tions, so as to ft the people for a future increase of po-
pular power. That had been done to a certain extent
by the alteration of 1849, and so far as related to the
control of financial matters, which was the foundation of
all legislative power, the colony did possess a great share
of self-government. With respect to the opinion of the
intelligent part of the colonists, he held in his hand a
resolution which had been transmitted to him by the
chairman of the meeting of proprietors, in which they
declared that, under existing institutions, the tax-
payers had entire control over the imposition and
expenditure of the taxes, and they pointed out
certain alterations in existing institutions as
greatly preferable to any sweeping alterations in
the present constitution. To the alterations which these
gentlemen thus proposed he saw no objections what-
ever. On the contrary, he believed them to be sound in
principle, and calculated to improve the existing institu-
tions of the colony, and gradually prepare it for still
greater freedom. Regarding them in that light, he felt
it his duty to send their resolution to the Governor, at
the same time strongly to recommend a measure to be
founded upon it and passed by the Court of Policy. The
signatures to that resolution embraced those of every
considerable merchant and planter connected with
Guiana, resident in England, Scotland, and Ireland; and
he thought that intelligent men like them ought to be
trusted in a matter of that sort. As to what the Noble
Lord had said respecting the weight of taxation, he
begged to say that it had been very much reduced of
late. The Noble Lord seemed to think that since the
Act of 1846 passed, a still larger reduction ought to have
been made; but if he would look to the actual state of
the colony, be would find that it was now in a not less
promising condition than at the period of the passing of
that Act. Comparing the actual price which Guiana
sugar produced at this time with what it then realised,
he would not find the planter in a worse condition;
rather he would find that brighter prospects were
dawning upon him, as had been stated by the Governor
in one of his dispatches. The fall in the rate of wages
was fully commensurate with the fall in the price of
the produce of the colony, for the effect of
protection, while it existed, had been to raise the price
of labour. There was no question, judging from the
returns which had been received, that wages had fallen;
that was to say, that the rate of wages had fallen to such
an extent that the population did more work now for
the same money than they had done before. With a
state of society like that which existed in Guiana, this
was an unmixed good, not only to the planters but the
people themselves, because in that state of society it was
most desirable that some adequate motive should be
found for them to labour, and not to encourage those
habits of idleness which were naturally stimulated by
the abolition of slavery. The Noble Lord said that
the measure of 1846 had operated so to injure the co-
lony as to make a great reduction of taxation neces-
sary. But if he looked at the facts before their Lord-
ships he found no proof of this. What was the actual
state of affairs? At this moment the Governor had been
able to propose in the colony a reduction of taxation to
the extent of no less than between 150,000 and 250,000
dollars. And how had he been able to do this? Mainly
by the increased productiveness of the existing taxes.
And surely that increased productiveness of re-
venue was no proof of general distress in the co-
lony. On the contrary, it seemed to him to be a sign
of the existence of a state of things which was the
very reverse. He was also happy to inform the Noble
Lord that the larger part of the reduction of taxa-
tion proposed by tiee.Governor of Guiana was a reduc-
tion of the duties on imported provision. He quite con-
curred with the Noble Lord with regard to Guiana, and
he wished the Noble Lord concurred with him in the
same principle as regarded England—that no more sui-
cidal policy could be adopted in Guiana than that of
laying heavy taxes on the importation of the necessaries
of life. But undoubtedly the existence of self-govern-
ment would not prevent this, because ho was afraid that
in this respect the policy of the other West India colo-
nies which did possess an Assembly and Council had not
been wiser than that of Guiana, though he had great
hopes that in their present sitting the Combined Court
would effect large reductions of the duties in the impor-
tation of provisions, and that in future years that mea-
sure would be followed by the entire removal of those
duties. This, he thought, was most desirable; for he
firmly believed that the effect in the West Indies of these
duties on imported provisions was most injurious both to
the planter and the labourer. In all countries it was in-
jurious to the labourer that labour should, by artificial
restrictions, be diverted from its natural requirements;
and injurious to the planter, because the great evil of
Guiana being at this moment a deficiency of labour, by
laying a tax upon imported provisions they virtually gave
an encouragement to the negroes rather to occupy them-
selves in their own provision grounds, raising provi-
sions, than in earning wages from the planter and the
sugar mill. The proposition of the Governor was,
therefore, in his judgment, wise and judicious. He
would repeat, that it was most desirable, if the popula-
tion were prepared for it, that we should be enabled
more completely to establish representative institutions
in Guiana; but, as matters now stood, he concurred with
the gentleman whose opinions he had quoted, and who
were, he believed, owners of a largo proportion of pro-
perty in that colony, that it was far wiser to endeavour
to improve its existing institutions than at once to sweep
those institutions away, and substitute for them a scheme
which was altogether new and untried.
Lord STANLEY would have been inclined to attach
much more importance to the statements of the gentle.
men cited by Earl Grey if they had not asserted that
the colonies were not, in their view, fitted for repre-
sentative institutions; whilst the Noble Earl said they
heel already a highly intelligent and numerous con-
stituency in Guiana—a constituency of about 1,000
persons—a constituency which would be much larger
than it was if persons would come forward and claim
the privilege; and that that constituency had now the
power of dealing with all financial questions. The
Noble Earl said that there was an extended constituency
which might be made more extensive still; and that this
constituency did in fact at present exercise control over
the legislation of the colony. But, if that were so, the
authority of the practical men to whom the Noble Lord
referred was at once destroyed; for the Noble Earl did
not state that the constituency were unfit, but that they
did exercise control. Then why not let them exercise
that control by direct representation rather than by a
system of which the colonists complained as being so re-
pugnant to them?—(Hear.) The Noble Lerd concluded
by laying the petition upon their Lordships" table.
HALIFAX AND QUEBEC RAILWAY.
Lord STANLEY said he had another petition to
present, from an association of persons in this country
who were deeply interested in emigration to North
America. It had reference to papers which were re-
cently laid upoa the table of the House, from which he
(Lord Stanley) was glad to see that her Majesty's Go-
vernment were prepared to give some assistance, and
the guarantee of this country, to the legislatures of
Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Canada, for the
purpose of establishing a railway between Halifax and
Quebec. The petitioners were connected with a number
of skilled and unskilled workmen, who could not find
employment in this country, and were desirous
of emigrating to Canada, and they prayed
that, in carrying into effect the railway from
Halifax to Quebec, her Majesty's Government
would not lose sight of the connexion which might be
wisely and advantageously established between a well-re-
gulated system of emigration and colonization and the
construction of this great national work. He mentioned
this now, because he did not see any definite mention
made in the papers as to how far the Noble Earl was
disposed, with regard to New Brunswick particularly,
to take the larger portion of the land adjoining the pro-
posed line of railway as a collateral security for the gua-
rantee of the Government. With regard to Nova Scotia.
and Canada, he believed such an arrangement was un-
necessary; but, with regard to New Brunswick, ho was
afraid that, looking at its present financial position, and
looking also at its want of resources, as well as at the
peculiar adaptability of its lands to purposes of coloni-
zation, that colony would not be able to give the Go-
vernment a sufficient security for the payment of the sums
to be advanced on ,loan unless the Government acceptedwaste
as a portion of the security a surrender of the
lands, which had already been offered by the colony. He
saw no reference to that in the papers laid upon the table
by the Noble Earl.
Earl GREY, in answer to Lord Stanley's concluding
observations with regard to the petition from Guiana,
said that there was a material difference between throw-
ing practically the whole power into the hands of the
population of that colony by such an assembly as was
asked for, and giving a well-regulated power over the
imposition of taxes, which were already possessed by
the constituencies, who elected the financial representa-
tives. With regard to the second matter to which the Noble
Lord had adverted that of the Quebec and Halifax Rail-
way, he had only to point out to the Noble Lord this
circumstance, that the manner in which it was proposed
that her Majesty's Government should guarantee the
loan would make the whole revenue, both territorial and
general, liable, in the first instance, for the payment of
the interest on the loan. If the proposal had been that
this country should make the loan, or should guarantee
the interest to the company making the loan, it was
obvious that it would then be material, in the first in-
stance perhaps, that there should be a certain right to
the land on both sides of the line, to afford the means of
meeting the costs. But if the responsibility of this
country was confined to guaranteeing the payment of a
loan raised in the money market by the colony on the
security of all its resources, territorial and general, that
would be no longer applicable.
Lord STANLEY theught the matter well worthy the
consideration of the Noble Earl and her Majesty's Go-
vernment. True, the whole of the revenue and the lands
of the colony would be the security for the guarantee of
this country; but he doubted very much whether the re-
venue of the province would, after providing for car-
rying on the administration of the province, be a suffi-
cient. security for the sums required to construct the rage
way through New Brunswick. But even if it were,
thought that in a national point of view, and particu-
larly with reference to emigration from this colauctirny,
very great advantages would be obtained
by
were, he
under the control of the Commissioners, who
along the
a lineu t h
byo-
understood, to act in conjuction with thael
rities, the promotion of colonisation g
emigrants going out under the superintendence and con-
trol of the Government. In that manner the surrender of
the control of these lands along the railways might,not only
pecuniarily, but politioally, be a most important matter for
this country, with a view to transferring thither a large
portion of industrious emigrants, who would not easily
find their way there if the lands
left
not under the con-
trol of the Commissioners, but to be disposed of by
speculators for what they would fetch in the market.
After a tow words from Earl GREY, in support of
the plan determined upon by the Government,
Lord STANLEY sin he thought the colony should
be in the position of being Able to offer a real security