The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-25 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JuNJ 24.

The SPEAKER took the chair at five minutes after tivr.
Sir W. CHAYTOR moved for a return of the number
of Lu1u1,34 bankrupts from the year 1824 to the present
time, with the account of debts proved, and the rate of
dividends paid by each.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know from some one of
bis 31aloty's ithnisters, whether the Recorder of the tatty
of London was to supersede the prerogative of the Crown;
and whether it was true, as report, d, that alter his
Majesty had been graciously pleased to grant a respite
to a per-on named Cox, the Recorder had actually issued a
warrant for his
Mi. FINN reminded th 11.11. and Learned Grath:ma/a

that a motion stood for to-morrow for the discussion of
the subject.

Mr. O'CONNELL would not, under these circum-
stances, press the matter.
Mr. HUME reminded the House that his motion for
the adoption of the recommendation of the Committee
relative to the proposed erection of a new House of Com-
mons stood fir Tuesday week.—,—(Hear, bear.) He
hoped a full attendance would be given; and if the
resolution was agreed to, be should then move an
humble address to his Majesty, praying that he would
be graciously pleased to direct the erection of a suitable
house; and that a vote of between 35 0001. and 40,0001.
should be placed at his dispoial, for that purpose. The
estimates varied from 15,0001. to 50,0001., but be be-
lieved between 25,0001. and 30,0001. would be quite
soil kat.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved for the return of the num-
ber of stamps issued to each of the newspapers in Ireland
during each of the quarters from January 5, 1832, to
January 5, 1833.
Mr. COBBETT gave notice that on Wednesday he should
present a petition from certain of his Majesty's subjects,
complaining that they were heavily taxed to support a
system of police who, in fact, were spies hired to instigate
the people to crime for the purpose of benefiting thereby;
and praying the House to inquire into the fact, and redress
the grievance. .

On the motion of Mr. Secretary STANLEY, the House
then resolved into a Committee of the whole House on the
Church Temporalities Bill.

Mr. BERNAL, in the chair, put clause 148.
The 148, 149, 150, 151, and 152, being the last five
clauses, were respectively agreed to.
Mr. STANLEY then proposed that the postponed
clauses should be respectively read. The 32, 39, and
41 clauses were then agreed to, with the addition of cer-
tain provisoes proposed by the Right Hon. Secretary for
the Colonies.

On the question that clause 54 should stand part of
the Bill,

Mr. HUME said that the 147th clause was the only
one worth attending to by that House or by the country ;
and now an amendment was proposed by the Right Hon.
Secretary (Mr. Stanley) to the 54th clause, the purport
of which he (Mr. Hume) did not clearly under,tand.
He wished to know if the money raised by selling in per-
petuity of the church lands, was to go to the maintenance
of the Established Church?

Mr. STANLEY said, by the 147th clause the pur-
chase of perpetuities was to be left to separate uses
from the rest of the church property. It was thought
a distinction should be made between that and other
church property, which was since thought not to be well
founded. It was thought necessary not to affirm or deny
the power of Parliament to deal with church property,
but simply to remove the distinction between the two
sorts of property.

Mr. HUME—If he understood the Right Hon. Se-
cretary aright, this Bill aught to be called a Bill to add
three millions in value to the income of the church.—
(Loud cheers.) He appealed to the House and to the
country, if it was not too much, that instead of relief
by a reformed House of Commons, and less expenditure,
they were to be burdened by this Act with a heavier
payment to the Church..—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was an
attempt, by bringing in such a Bill as the one to reform
the Church, at positive delusion. A sinecure church,
already too rich, was to have the disposal in perpetuity,
by this Bill, of land that before this time could only
be sold for the life-time of the incuinlient.—(Hear, hear.)
It was changing a time lease into a fee simple.—(Hear.)
He protested against proceeding in the absence of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer ; against voting three millions
of money for the support of a sinecure Church, until the
Chancellor of the Exchequer who, he always considered,
was a plain, direct, honest man, should explain this change
of sentiment, which was so diametrically opposite to
what he had before stated in the House of Commons.
They had relinquished that part of the Bill to which the
country had so earnestly looked, and on which the House
had depended, and until that Noble Lord himself declared
that he concurred in this change, and that, instead of re-
ducing the expense, three millions should be voted for the
purpose of keeping up an establishment which was odious to
the people of Ireland, and so expensive to England, as it
cost 20,000 military in that country, whereas, as in 1792,
10,000 would be sufficient;—until the Noble Lord ex-
plained this, he would resist the present vote. He there-
fore begged leave to move that the Chairman do leave the
Chair.

Mijar BEAUCLERK said, the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex had forestalled him in what he was going to say.
He strongly deprecated the flinching course of Ministers,
and would divide with the Hon. Member for Middlesex.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY denied the possibility of a new
value through the medium of an Act of Parliament. If
such a principle were admitted—for example, in the case
of canals—it would shake the whole system of property
in the country.
Lord DUNCANNON said, that in voting for leaving
out the 147th clause, he had not done so with the view of
taking front Parliament the appropriation of church pro-
perty. Hod he considered that that would have been the
effect of it, he should not have done so. His purpose was,
viewing the abolition of church cess as a great benefit,
to provide out of the funds to be derived from
the sale of church lands, for the first fruits and for the
abolition of the church cess. The surplus—if there should
he such—on a future occasion would still be in the appro-
priation of Parliament; or rather, it could not be disposed
of by the Commissioners or any other body, without the
sanction and approbation of Parliament.
Mr. HUNIE again protested against the measure.
Mr. STANLEY strongly protested against the inter-
pretation put upon the proceeding by the Hon. Metnl,er.
The alteration proposed by Government was precisely a
transfer from clause 147 to clause 54, so as to make the
latter complete, without any exception which might pre-
vious!y h..ve been contained in it.
Mr. 11UME said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
seemed very anxious to delude the House about this altera-
tion, which, as be before said, was an attempt to add
enormously to the already enormous receipts of the
Church.
Mr. STANLEY said the Hon. Member did not seem
to have read the clause—(A laugh)—and he would, there-
fore, do so. The Right Hon. Secretary accordingly read
the clause, and then repeated, that the object of the altera-
tion was to transfer from the 147th clause, the exception
named in the clause under consideration, and to place the
perpetuity purchase fund on precisely the same footing
with other funds.

Mr. HUME saw no recognition in the clause of any
right of Pirliament to interfere with Church land.
Sir R. INGLIS would never deny the right of Parlia-
ment to interfere with it, if Ire could be convinced that
other property was equally liable to Parliamentary juris•
diction. All he wanted was, that Church property should
be as sacred as other Corporation property. Some Hon.
Members talked very largely about the enormities of
Church cess, but he would show them how " one plain
fact would put them down." From the official returns,
it appeared, that in the county of Nottingham, it was not
more than 2:12-d. an acre, and in no place above ls. 6d,
Mr. O'CONNELL agreed with the Hon. Member that
Parliament was not called upon to meddle with the spiri-
tualities of the church—(Hear)—but be did think it very
expedient that :he House should have jurisdiction over the
overgrown temporalities, the pounds, shillings, and pence,
part of the business. It was not proper that the House
should be relieved from their cares, and he was, therefore,
most surprised and grieved at finding the most material
part of the Bill thos cut off. The Bill, as it now stood,
would eff et no change, would
afford no effectual remedy
against the great curse of freland. Talk of morbid appe-
tite fur robbery and plunder—(Hear, hear)—there were
several, many instances where. the utmost severity had
been practised by clergymen in recovering large tithes.
A curious thing occurred ip Illexf7d :—A clerk had been
aFwirtiiieeerfanoar
paid 10/ a year for ringing the bell ; the bell broke down,
.
and the clergyman, in his generosity, increased the fellow's
szlary to 151. for not ringing the bell.—(A laugh.) This
was a very ;air specimen of the appropriation of church
property. In the paro.h of I..dsheda, worth 1,0001. a
year, there was not a single Protestut.—Cffear,, hear,
hear.) The Hon. anti Learned Member, after instancing
several other cases of a similar nature, then began to read
his amendment, but was stopped by
Mr. secretary STALEY, wbo trggpsted that it would
be more appropriate in the b4th clause, when it !night be
acceded to.
Jr. O.CONNELL would then postpone his amendment.
Dr. LUSHINGTON contended that no injury whatever
has been done to the i3ril by the 147th clause being trans-
ferred to the 54th clause. There was no snrOus at present,
and the appropriation of any surplus. which might arise after
:.,irtain speciAc services
•were satisfied, would be appro-
kndepeuuoc.t pf that clause. It did not
priated eritirs4
Lord J. ttLISF-.4:40 Wit3ho to say? as the Hon. Mem-
berin spy manner the prip.cipie .4 the ipl,
it, wish that his Noble
tibleidCdtengcehllaodr o'f"theefEttequer might by present
the unotipn was made fur restoring the 147th clause.
that he had had PPlnffillnteations with his Noble Friend
on the subject, both before the amendment was proposed,
and after it was carried, and his Noble Friend expressed
his perfect satihrat3ion with the vote. The Hon. Member
fl. 'Middlesex would be sure to see his Noble Friend in
tbat House, either ou bringing up the report or on the third

reading, and therefore he hoped that the Hon. Member
would not persevere.
Mr. HUME expressed his extreme regret to hear that
the Noble Lord (Althorp) was satisfied with the course
adopted ; but, under the circumstances mentioned by the
Noble Lord, he would not persevere. _ . .

Mr, SE{AW stated that the former amount of churches
had been supplied to the extent of six-sevenths. He denied
that the clergy ever levied their lay tithes.
Mr. O'CONNELL quoted the case of Dr. Ryan, who
had levied his lay tithes. At Fermoy, also, the clergy-
man had taken the two species of tithes. As for building
churches, he knew one which bad been built three times
within twenty years. But what was the good of churches
when there were no flocks ? They were only built to tax
the Catholics.--(Hear.)
. . _

Mr. SHAW could assure the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman that these churches had congregations.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Yes ; five or six officers of the
church, who, when they were dying, always sent for the
priest.—(Hear.)

Mr. RoNAYDIE referred to the case of a Mr. Dave-
reux at Stradbally, as one in which the tithes had been
levied with harshness and cruelty. There was one wi-
dow, a Mrs. M'Carty, who was summoned, among others,
for tithes amounting to 17s. 6d. Ho held her affidavit in
his hand (showing a piece of paper), and she swore that
'he went on June Ist and paid all the tithes which were
due, and on the same day that she had to pay 2/. 10s. fur
a latitat, which was served on her for the payment of the
costs of the lie. 6d. tithes. She was obliged to borrow
the money to pay these costs from her neighbours. Then
see to the knavery of the receipt.—(The Hon. Gentleman
held forth another bit of paper.) It was given on a mu-
tilated stamp, and said that the Widow M'Carty bad paid
all her tithes and costs, without specifying the sum due,
up to June Ist. It was dated June 8, 1832, and signed
Claridge. That was the humanity of the church. After
what he had beard to-night, he must affirm that all the
discussion on Friday about the transterrence of the 147th
clause to the 54th was mere waste of time. If that
House had no power to put an end to the chief grievance
of Ireland—if the church was to continue for ever, and
that went forth to the people, all be could say was, that
he dreaded the consequences.—(Hear.)

Sir S. WHALLEY sJid, it was all a delusion to talk of
a surplus to be disposed of by Parliament or any body
else. There would be none under the Bill.

Mr. HARDY thought that there was no use in re-
taining the words which had been removed. It was
clear that the surplus must be disposed of by Parliament,
and could not be disposed of by the Commissioners with-
out the authority of Parliament. To insert the words,
therefore, " authority of Parliament," would be quite
useless; unless, indeed, the words " secular purposes"
were added.—(Hear, hear.) He had no doubt that the
Hon. Member for Middlesex, and the Hon. Gentlemen
around him, would not object to those words—(Hear,
hear)—and would not object, although the surplus fund
was to be, as was said, 3,000,0001. They would readily
apply the whole revenues of the Church to secular pur-
poses.—(Hear.) He would take that opportunity of
saying, that his motive for consenting to the Coercive
Bill was to secure tranquillity to Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that the Bill had created pretty
tranquillity in Ireland. Did the Hon. Member know
that the King's troops were a few days ago obliged to re-
treat into Middleton before a large body of the people?
Tranquillity would be restored in Ireland, he believed,
but it was by the Noble Lord's (Lord Althorp's) measure.
Mr. FINN charged the Whig Government—he charged
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies,
with having provoked and produced the excesses, to re-
press which he bad called for the Coercive Bill. When
that Right Hon. Gentleman talked of the extinction of
tithes, he had done what be could to prevent the people
being deluded. He was quite sure that, at the beginning
of those disturbances, the Irish gentlemen might have put
an end to them, but they were encouraged by the Whigs.
But those gentlemen were now known; they bad stirred
up almost revolution to get their Reform Bill passed :
but it was properly said that this bad given the people the
Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. They
would let them have nothing else. The delusion, how-
ever, was now seen through ; and when those gentlemen
went to the hustings they would be told to go away.—
(Oh, oh')
Mr. HARVEY tose to order. He did so with regret ;
but he appealed to the Chairman whether the Hon. Gen-
tleman was not departing altogether from the subject be-
fore the House.

Mr. FINN—The Bill before them was another delusion,
with the promise of three millions, with which it had
been introduced. He meant that there was a division in
the Cabinet on the subject. The Noble Lord, the Mem-
ber for Nottingham, had declared that church property
was public property, and might be appropriated by the
state. But the Right Hon. Secretary and the Noble
Lord at the bead of the legal profession had declared that
it all belonged to the church. Another of the Whig
schemes was shown on Friday night. In the early part
of the evening they could not muster 42 supporters-84
to 42—and they were defeated. But on the same even-
ing these Whigs mustered 272 supporters, when they
wished to get rid of the clause. This was another proof
of the delusions they practised. The first division was a
good pretext for getting rid of the 147th clause. In fact
the Whigs were prompted by the Tories. The Tories
were viceroys over them.—(Laughter.) The Whigs only
did the Tories' business. We were governed by Tories
in the disguise of Whigs.—( Hear, hear.) They filled
their places for the Tories. The people, however, were
now aware of the delusion—they were glad that the
Whigs, too, had turned against them, and they now knew
their enemies.

Mr. HARDY maintained that he (lid not support the
Coercive Bill on any bargain as to the remedial measures.
After a few words from Mr. Shaw,Mr. O'Connell, Mr.
Stanley, and Mr. Holcomb,
Mr. LYNCH contended that the perpetuity fund was
either church property or not. If not church property,
it hdd no connection with tire clause. If it were, the
object of the clause was to apply it to increase an esta•
blishment Already too large. _ _

Mr. HIJAJE said, that the effect of this clause would
be to set up and add to the stability of the Irish church
in a tenfold degree. He begged to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite whether the words "as the said
commissioners are hereafter directed," applied to the 84th
clause, giving the commissioners power to augment the
benefices?

Mr. STANLEY said that the 84th clause was certainly
referred to. The object was to throw the whole into one
general fund, to apply that fund to the general objects of
the Bill—such as the abolition of the vestry ces., &c.,
and then to that purpose of the Bill comprised in the
84th clause—the augmentation of benefices up to the
amount of 2001. per annum.
Mr. HUAIE was glad he had drawn forth this explana-
tion from the Right Hon. Gentleman. In England it was
with the utmost difficulty that we could get small be-
nefices of even 401. or 501. a year augmented, and yet
now they were going to give away that which had been
admitted to be state property, for the purpose of increasing
an already much overgrown establishment.—(Hear.) He
was surprised that the Hon. Member for Bradford should
deny that the Coercive Bill was introduced to that House
and recommended by his Majesty's Ministers for their
adoption solely on a pledge that remedial measures should
be introduced. This measure was not remedia', for it
tended to keep up and perpetuate that which was the
greatest cause of discontent in Ireland, the church esta-
blishment.

Mr. STANLEY admitted that his Noble Friend, when
he brought forward the Coercive Bill, did state that he
should have been exceedingly reluctant to bring forward
such a measure, unless be also meant to bring forward
measures for tie removal of grievances.—(Hear, hear.)
Two of the most prominent of those grievances were re-
presented to he the collection of tithes and of vestry cess.
A resolution had already been passed which would put a
stop to the collection of tithes, at least for the present ;
and he then held in his hand a Bill for the total abolition
of vestry cess. And if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
(Mr. O'Connell) would add any words to make that Bill
more forcible, those words should be added.—(Hear,
hear.) Was not this a performance of their pledge ?
( Hear, bear.) His noble Friend never intended to meet
what appeared to be the expeetation of the lion. Member
for Middlesex, v 4., to destioy the Itish Church, for the
preamble of this Bill was then lying on the table, in which
it was expressly stated that the fund to be raised was to
be applied to [isc,, of churches, the augmen-
t ition of small livings, and to such other purposes as
might conduce to the advancement of religion; and the
efficacy, permanence, and stability of the United Churches
of Etiglatal and Ireland.—(Hear.)
Mr. LITTLETON sti.l said that the property of the
!• r ' • •
church was stibect to the control of parliament whenever
th, re was a surplus not required for the purposes of the
establisbnient ; and though he gave his willing support to
th,a dttrlt:io9 made la.t Friday, yet he was tberoughly
satisfied that whenever this fapd shotlid exceed those
wants—and the House would every year have the means
of investigating this point,-the sum so increasing beyond
the necessities of the Established Church ought to be
placed at the disposal of Parliament.—s(Hear, hear.) He
was convinced the great majority of Members in that
House were of opinion that the property of the church
was subject to the control of Parliament; but he had no
doubt that the great majority were also of opinion that

mob property ought not lightly to be applied to other
than religious purposes.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL thought there was no advantage in dis-
cussing hypothetical questions ; and it was in his opinion
inconsistent with prudence for Ministers of the Crown to
give opinions on such subjects.
Dr. LUSHINGTON concurred in opinion with the
Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland.
After a few words from Sir R. PEEL and Mr. HUMF,
Mr. O'CONNELL said, he was glad to bear that tbf.
Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Littleton) admitted that the
surplus funds arising from ecclesiastical property were to
be considered as subject to the control of Parliament.
After a few observations from Messrs. Robinson, War•
burton, Stanley, and Hume, the clause was agreed to.
On the 56th clause being read,

Mr. O'CONNELL observed, that nothing could be
done to any purpose without repealing the Act of the 7th
Geo. IV. He repudiated the Act 7th Geo. IV. as unjust
to the Catholics. It was impossible to get rid of the
vestry cess as long as it continued in force. As long as it
continued unrepealed, the churchwardens would have it in
their power to do an infinite deal of mischief, and to op-
press the people; for it certain forms were not gone
through, which it was almost impossible could be done,
there was no appeal from the decision. All he asked was
the repeal of the Act 7th Geo. IV., in order that the ma-
chinery of that Act might be got rid of, and that clauses
should be added to the present Bill by which all those
parts might be retained which were thought necessary.
The Hon. and Learned Member concluded by moving that
certain words should be struck nut of clause 56, which
would have the effect of repealing the Act 7th Geo. IV.
Mr. STANLEY said that it had never been the object
of the Government to repeal all the laws relative to paro-
chial assessm- tits, which would lay the parishes open to
endless confusion and litigation. They proposed to repeal
such parts as referred to church purposes and no more.
The principle of this measure was that the Catholics of
Ireland should be relieved of all cess connected with the
Protestant religion. He did not defend the machinery of the
Act 7th Geo. IV. ; and as a proof that be did not entirely
approve of it, he would remind the House, that on his
first taking office connected with Ireland, be introduced a
Bill to remove the inconveniences connected with that Act.
It, however, had the effect of regulating all other parochial
assessments excepting the vestry cess.
Mr. O'CONNELL denied that he had ever avowed
any approbation of that Act. He had ever spoken of it
as one of the roost tyrannical ever passed. The only part
of the assessment laid on by that Act which was of gene-
ral benefit to the parishes, was that for fire-engines ; but
would they, for such an assessment as that, keep up the
whole machinery of the Bill ? The other assessments—
namely, for deserted children and coffins—were exclu-
sively for the benefit of Protestants, for the Catholics never
got any benefit from them. He saw how it was to be.
They were to be deceived to-night as they had formerly
been. On Friday the vestry cess was to be got rid of, and
to-night he found it was to be retained.
Sir ROBERT PEEL never saw less reason for diffe-
rence of opinion than on the present occasion. It was the
intention to do away with exclusively Protestant cess al-
together, which would make the right of appeal, which
was necessary while the cess was laid on by the Pro-
testant exclusively, probably useless, now that both par-
ties were to have a voice in it ; he, therefore, did not see
why the machinery of that Act should be retained. But
the Hon. and Learned Member contended for the repeal
of the Act 7th Geo. IV. ; the effect of which would be,
not only to repeal that Act, but every other Act respecting
vestry cess. There was a difference of opinion as to the
propriety of introducing poor laws into Ireland ; but,
while there were no poor laws, be doubted the pro-
priety of repealing the parochial assessments. A
considerable part of that assessment was expended
in providing coffins to bury the poor, and in sup-
porting deserted children. He would take as an in-
stance the parish of St. Mary, in which the whole assess-
ment amounted to 1481., of which 481. was expended in
providing coffins for the poor, to which he would think
no one would object, and he had no doubt the Catholics
had a full proportion of that amount; and 1001. went to
the maintenance of deserted children. He knew that it
was considered objectionable by some persons that found-
lings should be provided for; but he (Sir R. Peel) did
not think the House would say that it would be advisable
to do away altogether with the only provision made for
deserted children. At least he (Sir R. Pee!) was not pre-
pired to take such a responsibility upon himself. He
agreed in substance with the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin, that it was desirable to do away with ad ex-
clusive assessments, and that exp,nsive and useless machi-
nery ought not to be kept up ; but he could not consent
to the total repeal of the Act of 7th Geo. IV.

Mr. O'CONNELL said that he was ready to prove that
out of the 401. laid out on coffins, 108. were not expended
for coffins for Catholics.

Dr. LUSHINGTON said that he should object deci-
dedly to the repeal of the Act in question. He thought
that the object of the Hon. and Learned Member would
be quite as well attained by some addition to the present
clause—something to this effect:—" That if any Vestry
Cess should be hereafter made, which shall contain any
item for Church purposes, any person suing on that cess,
in any way whatsoever, shall forfeit four times the value
sued for, together with treble costs."
Mr. O'CONNELL thought this would be worse than
useless—it would merely have the effect of increasing liti-
gation, which was precisely what he wanted to do away
with. The definition of the words " church purposes"
would more than occupy a court of law a whole term ;
and, besides, how was any poor 'man, whose interests it
was more particularly necessary to consult—bow was he
to institute the inquiry? He hardly understood, either,
what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant, for be in-
sisted upon retaining in force the Act itself, while a: the
same time he proposed a proviso against its due operation.
Mr. SHAW opposed the repeal of the Act. Let them
introduce what words they pleased, with reference to
" church purposes," but he would never consent to the
repeal of so important an Act as the one in question, and
which bore reference to so many other matters.
Sir R. INGLIS also opposed the repeal of the Act.
No good reasons had been alleged for its repeal, nor any
efficient sul.stitute.

Mr. LALOR said the present acting of the vestries in
Ireland was such as called loudly for alteration. The
Hom Gentleman detailed several abuses which have been
frequently reported. _ _

Mr. SHEIL also strongly advocated the repeal of the
Act. When repealed they might make something of such
portions of it as were good, and make the whole effective
by an improved machinery, for the present machinery was
dreadfully out of order.

After some further conversation between Mr. STAN..
LEY and Mr. O'CoNtiErt, in which question and an-
swer were almost word for word the same with the fore-
going, the House divided, when there appeared—

For the Amendment I4S
Against it 49
Majority for Ministers 99
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 64 and 109 were also agreed to.

On clause 110 being read, which gives the Commis-
sioners power to suspend the appointment of clergymen on
the vacation of any benefice in the gift of the Crown or
Bishops, in which there has been no service for three years,
Mr. SHAW objected to the clause as likely to check the
growth of Protestantism in Ireland, and undermine the
Established Clutch. It would be better to provide means
for celebrating service in such benefices, than remove the
clergymen. There were 1,400 benefices in Ireland, and
1,100 churches. In the year 1800 there were only 700
churches, and nearly 500 had been since built; and he put
it to the Committee, if such a clause as that now proposed
had been passed in 1800, if it would not have prevented
all those 500 churches from being built? According to
the Returns on the table, when properly co►rectetl, there
were only about 66 benefices in Ireland in which there had
been no service for three years. He contended, that if the
incumbents were removed from these parishes, there would
be no hope of ever seeing service in those places, and Pro-
testantism would be extinguished. The Bishops had been
usefully employed in extending the Church service in Ire-
land ; but they would not be able to do so if the incum-
bents were removed. He objected also to a Commission
composed partly of hymen, having such a power as this
clause would give them. But without saying anything
further of ecclesiastical matters, he would appeal to the
Committee.,-as absentees were the great misfortune of
Ireland—if a worse thing could be possibly done in a
'emporal and political view, than to remove the clergy
from any of the parishes in Ireland ? They were the
great friends of the poor--administering to their neces-
sities, and contributing to instruct and relieve them ; and
to the population of Ireland the removal of the Protestant
clergy would be a great evil- He did not mean to move
as an amendment to omit the clause ; but he hoped the
Right Hon. secretary would omit it. If the Right Hon.
Secretary should not, he should in the course of the clause
move some amendment.

Mr. STANLEY defended the clause, as necessary for
the support of the church.
Mr. SHPL observed, that as the pressure would not
pass into a law for a month, it would be easy for the Right
Hon. Secretary to send over two thousand clergymen t,
celebrate divine worship in the different parishes before
the passing of the Act, and thus entirely to elude the
enactments provided for the ca•es of parisl es in which
divine worship has been intermitted for three years pre-