The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-12 00:00:00

ESTABLISHED CHURCH.

Petitions in favour of the Established Church were pre-
sented by the Archbishop of Cashel, the Duke of Wellington,
and the Earl of Caermarthen.
IRISH TITHE BILL.

Petitions against this Bill were presented by the Duke of
WELLINGTON from parishes in Kildare, and by Earl RODEN,
from Clonmel, Sligo, and a great many other places.
EMANCIPATION.

Lord ROLLE, seeing his Majesty's Ministers in their places,
wished to draw their attention to the effects of the Emancipation
as it regarded himself. He had an estate in the Bahamas
which had descended to him on the death of a relation, and
since the passing of the Emancipation Bill the slaves would
not work ; and this very morning in consequence of that, and
supplying them with corn, a Bill had been drawn upon
him for 1,0001. That was no object to him, but he would ask
their Lordships how such proceedings would apply to others.
He had no hesitation in saving that the measure would pro-
duce the worst effects, and every comfort that the negro had
hitherto enjoyed, would be withdrawn. He thought that
some steps ought to be taken upon the subject.
Lord MELBOURNE lamented, as much as any man, to
hear the statements of the Noble Lord ; but he must be al-
lowed to say, that it was contrary to every statement that
he had received from the same quarter of the condition of the
negroes.
The Earl of MULGRAVE stated that what the Noble
Lord had complained of was quite contrary to his own expe-
rience during his residence in one of the largest colonies in his
Majesty's possessions.
The subject then dropped.
IRISH CHURCH.
_ _

The Duke of CUMBERLANDi;;ented a petition from
the Lord Mayor, Sheriffs, and Commonalty of the City of
Dublin, in favour of the Protestant Church in Ireland, and
praying their Lordships in the present awful situation of the
Church of Ireland to adopt some measures for its protection.
It was impossible for any man not to see and feel the situation
of that unfortunate country, especially the Protestant part of it,
by the various events that had taken place. Their Lordships must
be aware that during the last Session a measure was brought
forward and carried for the reduction of Tithe Composi-
tions in Ireland. _ Nothing could have created greater
alarm than that reduction, and he was sure that Noble Lords on
that side of the House would have resisted it from beginning to
end, had not the Noble Earl then at the head of the govern-
ment stated it to be a final measure. That, however, had not
been the case. In this statement he begged to be understood
as not being personal to that Noble Earl ; he had differed with
him it was true through the whole of his political life, but no
man felt more than he did the manner in which that Noble
Earl had been treated. But he had certainly stated
positively that the measure was to be a final adjustment,
and he 'believed it was that and that alone that had
induced many Noble Lords to coincide with it. The
Government, not satisfied with that, a few weeks ago
brought forward another measure, viz., a commission. Into
the. circumstances attending the issuing of it—(Hear, hear)—
he would not then enter. There were those in the House
who could explain them ; but that commission was not only
to inquire into church property generally, but was to take a
census of the number of Catholics and Churchmen in every
county. —( Cheers.) Was that a way to pacify Ireland or to
satisfy the loyal Protestants of that country--would it
not much rather tend to set the one sect more- vio-
lently against the other than in any former time ?—( Hear. )
It was true, and he was at the time most happy to hear
it, that the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack on a
former evening had stated that he would never be a party to allow
a farthing of the revenues of the Church to be appropriated
to other than Protestant purposes.—( Hear.) The Noble
Earl then at the head of the Government made the same
declaration, and he trusted that the House would be
gratified With a similar declaration from the Noble Viscount
now filling that situation.--( Cheers.) But notwithstanding
all that, their Lordships were to have another measure pro-
posed to them that night, by which the poor clergy of Ireland
were to be deprived of twc-fifths of their just and lawful pro-
perty.—( Hear.) He would not then enter farther into that
measure, as he would have another opportunity of doing so.
Taking all these things into consideration, though he might
have all personal respect to the Ministers, he would deceive
them and deceive the country, if he was to say otherwise
than that he believed them to be no friends to the Church.—
(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) He would not have
troubled the House so much at length, only that having been
intrusted with such important petitions, he thought he would
not have discharged his duty had he abstained from making
these observations.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the Illustrious
Duke had correctly reported the observations that upon
a former occasion had fallen from him. He had said
that he would make use of any surplus that might arise
for Protestant purposes, in contradistinction to that of
giving any, even the smallest portion of it, to the Catholic
hierarchy. He had stated as distinctly as he possibly could,
that if there should be a surplus, and that question could not be
ascertained until a report should be made to the House ;
that surplus should first of all be employed for Ecclesiastical
purposes ; they must first of all be satisfied ; but lie had fol-
lowed that up by stating his opinion, that any further surplus
should be applied to the purposes of education upon the prin-
ciples of the Established Church.—( Hear.) Further than
that he had not gone, because the question might never arise,
and it was very inconvenient to discuss theoretical points.
Lord DUNCANNON said he could not hear such
opinions fixed upon himself and colleagues without giving
them the most flat denial. The Illustrious Duke had mis-
stated the objects of the Bill to be read a second time that
night ; he would not go into the merits of it then, but he
could not hear himself and his colleagues designated
as enemies to the Church, without stating in explicit terms that
he considered himself, and those with whom he acted, as sin-
cere friends of the Church as the Illustrious Duke, or any of those
who acted with him. He must at all times most strongly con-
tradict such statements, come from what quarter they might.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was most happy to
hear such a declaration as had fallen from the Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack, but as they were so much at
variance with the expressed opinions of Members of the Cabi-
net in the other House, he trusted the Noble Viscount at the
head of the Government would state what the real opinion of
the Cabinet was upon the subject.
Lord Mansfield, the Archbishop of Cashel, and Lord Car-
bery presented petitions in support of the Established Church.
The Bishop of ROCHESTER said, that in consequence
of some observations being made about the Irish Commission
he would beg to know, from the Noble and Learned Lord on
the woolsack. under what authority that had been issued.
He considered the Irish people were not bound to obey the
call of the Commissioners, but he should like to know from the
Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack whether there
was any authority to compel them.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He (the Right Rev. Prelate) would say there was not.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that when a person
who wished to have information as to whether a certain thing
could be done or not, said he knew it could not, and he
was certain it could not, what was the poor unhappy
mortal to say who was asked the question, and therefore,
whatever he might tell the Right Rev. Prelate, the Right
Rev. Prelate would say that he knew a great deal better
than him (the Lord Chancellor) ?—( Hear, and laughter.)
The common course was for a person who asked information to
profess ignorance upon the subject, but the Right Rev. Prelate
said be knew a great deal better than him, therefore he made
up his mind on the subject, but still asked to be informed—
that was inconsistent.--( Hear, hear.) But he would tell the
Right Rev. Prelate that the authority was the prerogative of
the crown—(Cheers)—the undoubted prerogative of the
Crown, which could at all times be issued and exercised
by his Majesty, when he thought fit, and which until
the Constitution should by some measure or other,
limiting the royal authority, probably by the advice of
the Right Rev. Prelite—(Laughter)—until some such mea-
sure as that should be passed and the constitution changed,
such commissions would always be issued. The Right Rev.
Prelate had stated this was an illegal commission—he had
decided and pronounced it to be so.
The Bishop of ROC HE STE R.—No.

The LORD CHANCELLOR.—Then it was a legal
commission, but the Right Rev. Prelate knew not under what
authority it was issued ; he wished to know whether there was
one, and (continued the Learned Lord), he tells the people
of Ireland—now then observe, my Lords, a Right Rev. Prelate,
a Member of the Lords' House of Parliament, who sits
among the Hereditary Councillors of the Crown, and who
is himself a Councillor of the Crown, thinks it becom-
ing_( Hear, hear, hear)—thinks it expedient, and fitting,
and consistent for the furtherance of the public service and
quietude,to tell the people of Ireland from his seat on the bench
ofßishops in the upper House of Parliament, they are not bound
to pay any deference or respect whatever to his Majesty's
Commission, and that they ought not to attend to that Com-
mission, which they will not do if they follow the
Right Right Reverend Prelate's advice.—( Hear, bear. )
The Noble and Learned Lord then went on to say that be
was certain that advice the people of Ireland would not follow.
His belief was that the people of Ireland would show
more wisdom than their adviser, and loyally and peaceably
comply with the terms of the commission.(—Hear-)
But
then there had been an inexplicable crotchet raised by ,
the Right Reverend Prelate, whose learning had been
exhausted to shew that the Commission was not only an ille-
gal Commission, but an Anti-Protestant Commission, such as
was used by James the Second, and then put down by Act of
Parliament. What was it the Right Rev. Prelates confoundedthis Commission with? Why-, with the Court of Commission,
odneavrceh
that any one had the power to create a new court to pro-
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the instance
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of Sir James Searlett--two of the greatest conservatives of the
present day. That Commissioner actually amongst other things,