The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-22 00:00:00

EVENING, MARCH 22, 1851.

titles now. The Methodists in America also uee them. In '
the United States there is a sect of Episcopal Methodists,
and all other churches, no matter how small or how poor, '
had the power, as it appeared to him, of calling their minis-
ters bishops, if they pleased. They enjoyed that power by
a higher law than any that House could enact —by a law
which it was not fitting that House should enact any law
to co itravene.—(Cheers.) But, in answer to the argument
that bishops were necessary for the due government and de
velopment of the Roman Catholic Church, it had been denied
there was any such necessity. It was affirmed that they
already enjoyed all the privileges and rights they could pos-
sibly require.—(Hear, hear.) Now he would like to know
on what grounds those who were not Roman Catholics set
themselves up as judges in this case?—(Hear, hear.) He
believed the statement that bishops were necessary to the
development of the Roman Catholic Church to be correct,
but he would not enter into that question or into the
queston of divided jurisdiction ; he held that all
these questions belonged to, and were settled by, the discus-
sions and legislation twenty-two years ago.—(Cheers.)
Say what they might do, no legislation of theirs could touch
the spiritual jurisdiction of the head of that Church.
(Hear, hear.) The Pope would be Pope still, if he were de-
posed to-morrow, and deprived of all temporal power what-
ever—(Renewed cheering from the Irish Members)—this
power depended on other than material influences. It was
akin to that by which men gained great honour and in-
fluence in countries with which they had nothing to do di-
rectly. In this way John Wesley gained power in America.
In this way Swedenborg—a foreigner—exercised power in
this country. Christianity overrode all nationalities.
Even at its very commencement one Jew was sent to or-
ganize a Christian Church at Rome, and another Jew to
organize a Christian Church at Athens.—(Cheers.) They
could not stop with this measure. If they once began they
must go back to the ancient law of persecution. But what-
ever might be the general ground for non-interference with
the rights of other churches, there was the special reason
in the case of the Roman Catholic Church—Catholics take
the rule, doctrine, and precepts from their sacerdotal au-
thority.—( Hear, hear.) Protestants profess to take them
from the Bible.—(Hear, hear.) The hierarchy was to the
Catholic a living Bible, and essential to his religion. - (Hear,
hear.) As to what had been said about the sufficiency of
vicars-apostolic, he would repeat that we were not the pro-
per judges in such questions. But if they took the authority
of Roman Catholics, it would be found that from the very
beginning there had been much dissatisfaction, and that from
time to time the number and powers of vicars-apostolic had
been increased. The Honourable Gentleman here quoted
from a learned work by Charles Butler, to show the
essential necessity of bishops to the Roman Catholic
Church—and proceeded to say that we had the testimony
besides of that eminent man, Dr. Yowler Short, who after-
wards became Bishop of St. Asaph, to the same effect. The
work, though published previously to his elevation to the
bench, had again been published so late as 1847. Since
that, and in it, the Rev. Prelate stated that the English
Roman Catholics had often and justly remeostrated against
being deprived of the benefits of episcopalian superinten-
dence. There was no analogy, though the parallel did
not hold good throughout, between the present position of
the Roman Catholics and the American Episcopalians,
whenaome time after the declarati n of independence they
felt a craving for and were determined to have an Episco-
pacy. They communicated with the heads of the church
in this country, through Mr. John Adams, who expressed
his opinion that the movement was a bold and a dan-
gerous one. Yet in consequence of their application in
the year 1787, the Archbishops of Canterbury and York or
dained in Lambeth a Bishop of New York, and a Bishop of
Pennsylvania.—(Hear, hear.) So strong must have been
the opinion of these prelates as to the necessity of episcopal
superintennence to the American Church, that they con-
tented to omit important portions of the liturgy, the Coro-
nation oath, and even 19 of the e 9 Articles of the Church.—
( Hear, and a laugh.) By that act they laid the foundation
of the Episcopal Church in America, which since that time
had mapped out that continent from sea to sea, and given
its bishops territorial jurisdiction over it. (Loud cheers.)
Another sophism has prevailed throughout the debate,
which was commenced by the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell).
The Noble Lord began by bringing together all the crimes
' and persecutions committed by the p -Tests, and ended by at-
tributing them all to Roman Catholics. The fallacy in this
was that, the Noble Lord had attributel to a priesthood in
particular that which belonged to the priesthood in general.
In all ages they had found priests of all religions grasping,
ambitious, arrogant, and intolerant, when in power; ant in
all times they had seen them exhibiting benevolence, charity,
and forbearance, when in poverty, as he believed had been
very much the case with the Roman Catholics in Ireland.—
(Hear.) The Noble Lord complained of the interference of
the Synod of Thurlee with education. Why, the greatest
opponents of the mixed system of education in Ireland were
the clergy of the Established Church ; and he believed that
three-fourths of the children that attended the national
schools were Roman Catholics.—(Hear.) In the report
for 1849, Mr. T. W. Marshall stated some very gratifying
facts as to the harmony which prevailed in the schools in the
midland and northern counties with respect to religious tui-
tion, and the total absence of all interference by either party.
If the same support was shown in this country, he believed
that most of the difficulties which now beset the question
would vanish.—(Hear, hear.) As to the assertion that the
voice of this country had declared in f tvour of this measure,
while he did not deny that there had been a deep and exten-
sive movement (Hear, hear)—he could not help thinking
at the same time that it had been considerably exaggerated.
—(Counter cheers.) He had found, on examining the peti-
tions, that whenever there was any great public agitation
the number of petitions sent in was great, and the number
of signatures small, they might always expect that the fac-
tory had been at work.— (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Ap-
plying that to the present case, and including the petitions
from Ireland, what was the result? Why, that the average
signatures to the petitions in favour of legislation was 150,
while the number of signatures against it were 500. But
even the petitions with the smaller number of signatures
were not to be taken in favour of the Bill.—( Hear.) Of all
the speakers who had spoken during that debate, how many
had spoken in its f avour ? (Hear, and a laugh.) The peti-
tions were for them to legislate -to put a stop ro Popery in
this country.—( Hear, hear.) How could that be done ?
(Hear. ) Certainly not by legislation in that House. The
most effectual way, as it appeared to him, to counteract the
influence and prevent the extension of Popery in this coun-
try, was first of all to Protestantise the Established Church
of England.—(Cheers.) He did not mean that they should
give either of the parties who now divided that Church a
triumph over the other; but he did say, that they should
enlarge its portals, so as to admit many excellent and emi-
nent men, who were now precluded from entering it. They
ought not to insist upon subscription to the articles, and a
course of policy which in later times had driven from it a
man like Robert Southey, as in former times it had ex-
cluded John Milton—(Hear, hear)—which yet kept out
many of our great men, and which had induced a late
bishop, who was an ornament to the bench, to declare that in
the course of his life he never knew a single clergyman who
entirely believed the articles he had subscribed.—(Hear,
hear.) They could have neither strength, uniformity,
nor energy, while such a system lasted. It was not for him
to say how far the people would be satisfied with that Bill,
but be did say that the only effectual way of meeting their
demands would be to make the Church of England more
Protestant. Instead of that the Noble Lord commenced a
system of destruction and delusion which he much feared was
beyond all repair.—(Hear, hear.) Aud for what purpose had
a powerful party been shattered, the public business paralysed,
the time of the Legislature wasted—(Hear, hear) —and the
tone of its debates lowered.—(Hear, hear.) Why had a false
and dangerous agitation been raised in this country, which
threatened to make havoc on the social interests and welfare
of the people? For what pnrpose had all this been done,
but merely to placate the wounded pride of a few titled ec-
clesiastics.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. WALPOLE was extremely anxious,, and yet unwill-
ing to address the House on this question, anxious because
he entertained a deep feeling in it, and unwilling, lest he
might utter anything that could wound in any way the feel-
ings of any portion of his fellow-subjects. He was led to
discuss this question fairly, fully, and candidly, and in ap-
proaching it, there were two question to which he wished to
call attention. First, whether the Pope of Rome, in assum-
ing the power of conferring territorial titles in this country,
was guilty of an act of aggression • and, secondly, assuming
that ques ion to be answered in the affirmative, in what way
ought that aggression to be dealt with, and whether the mea-
sure submitted to the House was suitable to the occasion ?
With regard to the first question, it clearly related to the
rights of the Sovereign of this kingdom and the great prin-
ciples of civil and religious freedom, and on those points his
Honourable and Learned Friend the Member for Plymouth
(Mr. Roundell Palmer), and the Right Honourable Baronet
the Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham), admitted the
whole of the case for his argument, in stating that they con-
sidered, although they did not approve of the proposed
Bill, that the step taken by the Pope in this matter was
arrogant.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Now, it that was
the character of the Papal brief; the Government had met it
on two grounds—they said it was an insult and an injury.
The Noble Lord (the Earl of Arundel) denied that it was
intended as an insult, and if that be proved to be so, he (Mr.
Walpole) would say that they ought not longer to show any
opposition to the step. That, however, was a question which
was not to be determined unless by reference to the document
itself. Now, no one who had read the Papal brief and Car-
dinal Wiseman's pastoral, but must agree with Sir Edward
Sugden's words—the words, be it observed, of a man who
was not likely to be led away by any undue feeling namely,
that he " felt as if a blow had been aimed against the prero-
gative of the Sovereign, and at the institutions of this coun-
try." Now that he (Mr. Walpole) believed was the feeling
of the whole people of this country ? And why did they feel
it? They felt it because they heard the language of "sove-
reignty" was used as aflected them, not by the Queen (whom
they were delighted to obey), but by a foreign prelate, whose
encroachments were remarkable ; and if not checked from
turning into absolute action, would place their liberties
in danger.—( Hear, hear.) But not only that, they were
further told in that brief, that the Roman Pontiff, having
again divided this country into dioceses and sees, no person
under any authority, was, in any manner, to set aside the
authority which he had thus thought proper to exercise.—
(" Hear," from Sir George Grey.) That was the language
which was used by Rome; and to that language, it had been
asked by eminent statesmen, "would the subjects of the
British Queen—subject only to her laws— submit ?"—(No,
no.) He said they could not submit to it— (Hear)—and if
those documents to which he had referred, could be made
effectual, they would establish an " Imperium in imperio"
in this kingdom, making out the words of Lord Bacon, that
" the Pope had become, by his late challenge, a competitor
and rival of the Queen." But three things had been said in
relation to this question. First, that the language of those
documents had been misunderstood ; secondly, that the power
set up was spiritual ; and thirdly, that the change which was
made from vicars apostolic to bishops in ordinary, was a change_
merely for the better management of the spiritual concerns of
the Roman Catholics only.—(Hear.) Now, what did the Ca-
tholic newspaper press say upon the subject. The documents
had been for some time put forward, and instead of their being
corrected, if misunderstood, what said the Utsiver!
of
France, and the Tablet of England, on the subject'
Roman Catholic organs ? The Univers, in speaking
hhing of the
matter te ri-
matter said, that, '° as St. Gregory had transferbothe
int wopuld
macy from London to Canterbury, so Pius th
transfer the primacy from Canterbury to Westminster,
that, henceforth, there was neither a see of e
and
y, or nor a see of
Canterbury ;" and the Tablet, speaking of the matter, said
that, " unless every baptized person should
directions of the Papal brief, he wouldNebe,'ld submit to the
n sueb.j)ectßtoemthee pain
d
of damnation." (Hear, h
spoken and acted. The Ptetpaer, and
had
a
and athlle la
e called
vided into
dioceses, and placed in each ph dpastor,,
upon to submit under pain
()f dainnation, thus interfering
with the prerogative of the Queen of this realm. He could
not help saying then that the Noble Lord at the head of her
Majesty's Government had =aid eorrecitnlysu,ltthat
offeredthi to thes was an
encroachment on the rights of, and an
d doe Protest Then
Sovereign of 'his realm, and to the
.ant people of this
country. - (Hear'
hear, , as to the
second question, that the step taken was merely
spiritual, and that it was not of a two-fold character, the
Right Hon. Baronet, the Home Secretary had, he thought,
clearly shewn that it was temporal as well as spiritual. If
it was merely spiritual they should not interfierr.e
Walpole)
said but if it touched temporal matters, then he (A
said they had a right to deal with it._.( Hear, hear.) That
every act of the Pope was of a twofeld character, was clearly
proved by Mr. Twiss's book, which showed clearly that it
partook of temporal as well as spiritual considerations, when

it suited the objects of Rome One thing was certain, that if
there were indi ect power in the acts of the Pope, they could
always be turned to temporal account. They bad it in his-
tory that the Roman Catholic nations of Europe had taken
care to resist the temporal spower of the Pope, even though
they were ready to bow to him in spiritual matters, and
that their own Roman Catholic ancestors had resisted that
power; and were the Protestant people of England now.
in the face of such acts, to submit to his attempted en-
croachment?—(No, no!) It could not be denied, that,
by means of vicars• apostolic, which had been so long in
operation in this country, the objects of the Roman
Catholic religion were amply provided for ; and it
had been shown by the Earl of Arundel and Surrey, that
the Roman Catholic religion had greatly expanded under
that order in the Church in this country. In the reign of
James I. there was but one vicar-apostolic in this country ;
in that of James the Second there were four; and in 1890,
there were eight. He would now take his information as to
the ol jects of the Pope from a Roman Catholic dignitary—
Cardinal Wiseman says that the object of the Pope was to
apply the canon law to England; and he (Mr. Walpole)
believed that the fundamental object was to give the Pope
temporal power ;n this country, and " dominion over kings
and over kingdoms."—(Hear, and No, no.) Mr. Hal-
lam, in his work on the canon law, had told them that pas-
toral or spiritual power, meant also temporal power. Now,
if he (Mr. Walpole) understood the canon law, under " vicars-
apostolic" the Roman Catholic inhabitants of this country
would be governed by the same laws as the other subjects of
the Sovereign ; but under " bishops in ordinary," the Roman
Catholics would be governed by a law which was not applicable
to the rest of the community, and they would be at issue with
any other portion of society which would not acknowledge the
spiritual power of the Court of Rome.—( No.) He had paid
much attention to the subject, and he should be glad to be
refuted ; but if not refuted, the question was not merely one
of vicars-apostolic and bishops in ordinary, but rather a ques-
tion whether the Pope's law or the Queen's law was to go-
vern.—(Bear, hear.) Having gone through those three
questions, the next question was, whether the people of this
country had reason to complain of the step taken by the Pope.
He was of opinion that they had, on three grounds •, first,
because the Papal brief, if acted on, was contrary to the law
of nations; secondly, because it was utterly opposed to the
law of England ; and thirdly, because it was repugnant to
and inconsistent with the spirit of their institutions. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded to show that
no person could, without the consent of the Crown of England,
accept of any title in this country, or do anything for any
foreign power, unless by the Queen's permission; and for
that reason it was that a certain law was passed, entitled
" misprision," which was intended to deal with any attempt
to bring into contempt the Queen's Government or the
Queen's title. In addition to that law, the statute of pre-
munire was passed, and the introduction of " bulls " into
this country was prohibited, not because it was appre-
hended that they would interfere with the Established
Church, but because they were found i f a nature
to absolve British subjects from their allegiance. He
admitted that the laws of this country in reference to
the admission of bulls into this country, were in a most un-
satisfactory state, and they ought to be so altered as, while
they could be administered with regard to the internal affairs
of the Roman Catholic Church ; they should be opposed
when they in any way affected the civil rights of the sub-
ject. (Hear.) His Right Hon. Frien f the Member for
Ripon asked, the previous evening, if they were going to
pose by legislative measures the Papal aggression? and hi-
Right Hon. l.riend had answered himself; and said that their
ancestors were wiser than they were, for they had not done
so. He was astonished when he heard his Right Hon.
Friend make this statement. He thought he might have
found, in his reading of the history of this country, that the
encroachments of the Bishop of Rome were constantly met
with opposition from this country, and this otrposition, ex-
cept in a few instances, was always successful. He knew it
weer said that Cardinal Wiseman, in his pastoral, had spoken
of England agaee moving round its own orbit of religion;
but England's only orbit was around the Crown as its source
and centre.—(Hear.) When St. Augustine came to this
country he claimed the obedience of the Catholic people
of this country to the Pope; but Desiderius, o he
part of the people, said " that the only obedience
they owed to the Pope was charity." He ad-
mitted that subsequently, when the Conqueror de-
tained certain advantages trout the Pope, that the head of
the Church of Rome obtained three things—first, that eccle-
siastics should be placed beyond secular jurisdiction • se-
condly, that in all ecclesiastical matters there should be an
appeal to Rome; and, thirdly.lthat the bishops of the Church
should pay homage to the Church of Rome. but subse-
quently these privileges were very much pi ,lified, the power
of the Court of Rome, in reference to these three points,
g eatly curtailed. It was true that King John, in
a dastardly manner, gave up the advantages which the
English Church had obtained, and consented to pay a tri-
bute of one thousand marks to the Pope; but when Edward
the Third was called on to pay this tribute, the Parlia-
ment of that day objected to the payment, and if it were
attempted to be enforced they would resist the at-
tempt to the death.—(Hear, hear.) The consequence was
the payment of the tribute was not enforced. Then caine
the statute of prmmunire which was directed against the
temporal power of the Pope, and. this showed that
the Church of England stood out in contradistinction to the
Church of Rome where territorial rights were claimed by
the latter Church. So things remained until the Reforma-
tion, when the power of the Pope in spiritual as well as in
other respects completely ceased in this country. So mat-
ters remained for the next century and a half, when the
contest between this country and the Pope was resumed
through the bigotry and folly of James ll.—(Hear.) And
those times were not very dissimilar to the present times.
Then, as now, the plea for aggression was conscientious.
Then, as now, the Nonconformists were taunted with
abiding with the Church; but then, as now, the Noncon-
formists declared they would stand by those who would up-
hold the Protestant religion.—(Hear, hear.) The result
was that the contest ended in the political prostration of the
Roman Catholics, and it was not until 1791 that they ob-
tained any political power, and it was not till 1829 that they
were entirely emancipated from all political disqualification.
Thus Roman Catholics were excluded from power, not on ac-
count of their religion, but purely upon political grounds;
and, if they wished for religious peace, they could only en-
sure it by abiding by the settlement effected by the Act of
1829. But if that measure was'to be made a means of en-
croaching on the rights of the Crown—if all the securities
which it imposed against the power of Rome were
to be taken away—and if Rome was always to be an aggres-
sive power, they would then say that it was time for the
people of England to declare their determination to abide
by the faith of their fathers, and to teach the Court of Rome
that if it thought it could adopt this course with impunity,
it strangely misunderstood the faith and feelings of the Bri-
tish nation. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He now came to the
ouestion of how they were to deal with this aggression, and
here he would observe, in reply to the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir James Graham) that the Government had acted wisely
in not attempting in the present state of the 1:11V to prosecute
those who acted under the Pope's rescript. It was most un-
wise for the Crown to prosecute where there was the
slightest chance of failure.—( Hear, hear.) But if they had
done so, they would not have touched the gravamen
of the offence, which was the Papal rescript ; and
the only way to meet this was by a protest, and
by a movement against it, and he knew of no
other way to do this except through them, th- represen-
tatives of the nation in Parliament assembled.—(Hear, hear.)
After referring to the contrary views entertained by the
Right Hon. Member for Wiltshire (Ar. Sidney Herbert),
and his Right Hon. Friend Sir James Graham, in reference
to the measure before the House, although they both con-
curred in objecting to it, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
proceeded to say that, when the Bill went into Committee,
he thought it would be clearly shown that the first clause
of the Bill did not in any respect infringe upon religious
freedom, and that it did nothing more than maintain the
supremacy of the Crown, and that it did so in self-defence.
He agreed that they should maintain a just toleration, and
if the clause was shown to be an infringement of tolera-
tion, it ought to be thrown out. But there were other prin-
ciples as important as religious toleration— namely, that
tee sovereig .ty of the Crown should be upheld— (Hear,
hear)—the purity of our faith should be kept sacred that
the law of nations should not be violated by foreign powers,
and that the rights and privileges which they enjoyed
should be handed down to posterity in all their integriey-
Unless they maintained all these things, they would not
legislate either for their own conduct or for the benefit of
the Church, or for the country generally. But what was
this toleration which was spoken of? It was not the toler-
ation advs cated by the Roman Catholics. He would (1111 re
his esteemed trend—and he was proud to call him n
and
Bowyer, on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) His
Learned Friend justified the conduct of the Pope
" someth mg
of toleration, but he described toleration as
hat was that
more then the equality of civil rights ;"
an4l wrights?" It
" something more than the equality
of civi claimed by the
clearly meant the establishment of the onathe plea
poliwaetr power.—( Hear,
Pope, and the ultimate ascendancy
tv at was the toleration
England would give their assent. concur in ?—a
would
near.) That was not the toleration of
fohtwhich the people of
which the people of England
lwdas."— ( Hear,
maxim—" Sic utere too ut
non
Baronet (Sir James
hear.) But the Right Honourable perfect freedom of religious actionTunilimited by this
13, y
nothe following—" Volenti
Graham) capped this maxim injury or insult were
non fit injuria"—urging
-e t
t(i
nHge Hear.
t)
offered, where there was injury, and therefore the maxim
/10°i:tendon to do so. But they
were willing to submit to the
levarr,:sondeetfedchtilvenoliti anpoptlys.
allow him to say a word or two
He hoped the _II use‘ would
quoted by the Right llon.t
fill the expression of indignation
on the Bill. He thought
people in respect to this aggression
(whi influenced
wouldthee
in the preamble of the
wish that the constitutional prin-
Hear, hear.)this country would be fully carried out
ciple of the peroe encroachmentso on their creed and country'
against such ._t
-ssaries of he Roman Pontiff for such
through the erni d
to be manifest!
y opposed to the authority
aggres-
sion he considered
lso to the law of th.
of the Queen, 3nd *which he • is country. That was
one of the wags by ~
i)should
considered that the Noble Lord
(Lord John gussel act if he intended to act satis-
wishes and feelin
factorily to th gs of the people.—( Hear,
ld ot
bear.) lie wen n on the present occasion make any
eaten()
• I, whatever to other matters connected with the Ro-
men Catholic religion
more than to offer his opinion that
the synodical action and the operation of the canon law
shou'd be especially guarded against by the Noble Lord, as
the toleration of such would tend to subvert the freedom of
the Queen and the Constitution of the country. It might
be argued, as it frequently had, that there was no apprehen-
sion to be entertained from the exercise of the canon law,
but to that he should then once for all say, that self-preser-
vation entitled the people of this country to snake such a
demand from the Noble Lord— ( Hear)—and
for that reason
be would support the second reading of the Bill, believing
that it was better than no Bill at all • and ho should also
add that, when the Noble
Lord's
Bill had passed, it should
be carried into effect as soon as possible.—(Hear, hear.)
For let them depend upon it. if, as they had sometimes
done,
they passed a law and then let it 'remain unnoticed
and disregarded, such a course would be most delusive.. It
would be worse—it was a mockery of legislation. To use a
lawyer's expression, they would make themselves accesso-
ries after the fact to whatever offence had been committed.
Whatever happened, they must not do that—
" We must not make a scarecrow of the law,
Setting it up to fear the birds of prey,
And /et it keep one shape till custom make it
Their perch, and not their terror."
(Hear, hear.) Of all the courses the Government could
pursue, that was the worst. If these events, painful as they
were, should teach them no other lesson than that, they
would not he without benefit—namely, that the just admi-
nistration of the law was not less important than the law
itself; nay, further, that the administration of the law would
be fruitless and unavailing of itself if it was still to be ac-
companied by a course of policy which encouraged the
offence it was meant to prohibit. There was only one sub-
ject which he wished further to notice. They had heard
much about religious persecution, as if it were persecution
to defend themselves and repel a hostile invasion. They had
heard much about the duty of preserving religious peace ;
but religious peace could not be preserved unless both par-
ties withdrew their forces, and prepared to stand on
neutral ground. It was not by them religious peace
had been violated. They could never forget by whom
and how it was it had been assailed. They must not, under
the plea of conscience, bring into this country rules by which
the inha;bitants would be subjected to foreign law and juris-
diction. They must Lot attempt to shake their allegiance,

which - te' tto be one and utidiv:d ‘'. H cared not in
what Church it was admi led, but he would not admit that
the eaceedotal authority should be placed before the tempo'
rid, still less the pontifical authority above the regal. tempo'
they did that, they would put in peril the sovereignty o
their Queen, the freedom of their Church, and the integrity
of their constitution. He thought that the time was come
when the Queen, imitating her illustrious predecessor, might h
call upon the House, as she had already done in the Speec
from the Throne, to vindicate her authority. In such ea
case, with truth, witk honour, and with justice on
their
side, he was sure she might appeal to their obedience and
loyalty, and as they were a free people, they should have a
free Queen. - (Loud cheering.)
Mr. ROEBUCK could understand what was meant by a
free people, but he did not understand what the Hon- anu
Learned Gentleman meant by a free Queen-what was the
relative position of those two powers. The people of t_a
country were a great people- among the foremost 0f t the
world; they were hardly equalled, certainly not surpassed_
by any nation on the earth. They had a Sovereign wleneenhoria
all hearts obeyed, before whom they were prepared to
and for whom they were ready to die. Was not she, tber:nad
free Queen? That was one side of the question. What "`",
they on the other? A foreign Prince without P°swei:
without an acre of land he could call his own; wile wiles.
ever power he had was that of moral influenr..
How could they deal with that influence by Act of Parl!!,
tnent? Let them not talk to him, then, of a free Queen,
with such power at her back as this country priestPesees3u
being overbore by an almost wandering clothedold
~..
who came to this country, if he came at all, only in
unreal attributes. What had they to fear? He rfouilti
deal with the question only as a political / ne. He
wehuad
not roll himself in the theological mire in which others ...
flung themselves; he wanted to raise himself and thesrub
ject to dry land, whereon to have some rational
.s 8_1'...."
ment. The supremacy that he was prepared to maintem
,wa"
e d he
the supremacy of Parliament, and if that were asse"nduct
was quite ready to deal with it. But how did denied
of the Pope affect the interests of England? He
it did. Besides, they must remember that the It
,i. sitory
Catholic religion in former times was the great --Eii the
of learning, and that its despotism was founded
over the
power which the learning of the priests gave them
r_,,si
ignorant and rude feudal nobles and people. When printing
was discovered, it extended learning among the matss he add'
then the influence of the priests failed. At presTe_otyilergou,
aided by the printing-press, by science, and by knowledge' religion-
they need net be afraid of the Roman Catholic
e___Teet to
be afraid of ? He feared encroachment on
Let him ask the Noble Lord what was it he preatrtuu
Roman
Catholic
of the
the P
Roman Catholics. In what way ?
d then they bad
alteration front vicars- ap stolic to bishops, an been the
been told by the Solicitor General there badd
did any"
introduction of the canon-law. Now, he aske , by the
body believe that canon law bad been introduced
of canon
Papal rescript ? And what then was the mearldig -
d b certain
law ? That the Roman Catholics were governe Y _ what
rule, which their consciences submitted to. That "
w'r courts
was called canon law. It was not enforced in their
pi..
of
of law. It was no more than a moral code, which peo i'
T° say then
Tbere bad been an
the Roman Catholic religion obeyed.-(llear-) T" t. terms-
that the canon law was introduced, was an Siblige ° ~ fle
They called that "law," which was in fact " custan.
.. in
admitted that the Pope had power; but be had hat else e',ad
their courts of law.- (Hear, hear.) Then, what bad
their
the Pope done? The Pope who had the power throuio;
vicars apostolic of governing wholly the Roman Cid,. "
nted by
England, now said that the bishops should be stietadvitiosf
the clergy ; so that they hail election introdeesePdPi?ni
direct m urination by the Pope.-(Hear.) But then
said there was synodal action? What was synodal enaction?
IHe had seen the Wesleyan assemblies-and the assembolete,sovo.
other Protestant Dissenters. That was synodal "
rest
-(Hear, hear.) But then he was told there was a ;Dig_
difference between the Roman Catholics nd the
centers; that the former had at their head as foreign
P." uid
But then they knew that in the Catholic religion
be an eiscopal body-that episcopal body deriveo P 0
from the , Pope; but in doing so he was not considereao.
~e,
temporal prince-he was but a bishop, as the head I 1..L1
. Roman Catholic Church. (Hear.) Then it had been said
there would be Papal interference with the loyaltY
__e aa
Roman Catholics. He could not help feeling that 50,......
assertion was an unworthy attack on the Roman Cathotr
1 this
(Cheers from the Roman Catholic Members.) . son.
country the Roman Catholics had always borne with ,15.'1, to
ness and with meekness their disabilities.- (Hear') nd DO
1529 there had been no more loyal, no more humble, !,
..d.,...
there. snooseer
mor - docile people than the Roman Catholics of Engla"gain
(Hear.) The Roman Catholics of England did net people.
emancipation.-(Hear.) It was gained by the IriehdPeit by
- (Cheers from the Irish Members.) They geinefied the
terrifying the Government.-(Cheers.) They tern e Ile
conqueror, as he had been called, in a hundred battles. Ca.
said he could not govern the country if the It°sl,alle had
tholics were not emancipated. Sir Robert Peel, vlninte,
opposed emancipation up to 1829, proposed it at that'll; the
because he said it was impossible for them to ge,velaws•--
country it they persisted in maintaining the
Nobleen Lord,
(Hear, hear.) And now he asked the
lifter
.it_st
did he believe he could govern the country,
enjoying so many years of liberty-did he believe
quiet,
the Catholics of Ireland could be induced to remain (1„ e
with such a Bill as this ?-(Cheers.) Did the Noble
resr.)
believe he could enforce his Bill without coercion ?--(Cheers
Why the Noble Lord's Bill was a mere brutum fulmes--1. with-
hostile without the capacity to attack-it was insult
rg,)
out the power of injury..-(Cheers from the Irish Igeteb,,e his
The Noble Lord's Government depended for sunnott e-r rd
Irish Friends, and what made the weakness of the Noblee'Sia
now?-(Cheers from the Irish Members.) Had not the
Noble Lord by this time discovered the great mistake t.a1.."
he had made? bid they not think that the Noble Lordril..
lieved it to be unwise in him to have departed trona thewe
nary rule which should have governed his conduct as rri ir,
Minister of the country, when he entered into discussioti,ha
a public newspaper ?-(Hear.) The Noble Lord frorn `.,
hour that he penned that fatal letter felt the necossaail
consequences of that most imprudent proceeding
hear.) The. Noble Lord had done that which was ,t,
only useless, but destructive to his administration: 41;4
hear.) All the business of the country was delayed; 001:
thing connected with the interests of England Walece
abeyance ; the whole Government was paralysed becatan
Irish Members were no longer the friends of the Noble feet,
Cheers.' Never was there such evidence of their Pos.vi,,em
and no doubt they would take advantage of it - (Cheers `l.‘",,d
the Irish M embers) -for in the balance of the parties, a-es.
that balance was almost complete, the preponderating Pta
was in their hands, and nobouy felt that more deeply,tlat
the Noble Lord.-(Cheers from the Irish Members.) " o-t,
but this, he asked, made their country, at that In,°theope
a spectacle for nations?-(Hear, hear.) On that (t'lee form
position) side of the House they were unable w ,e'plf
a Government.-( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord biat3.1.50-ta
(the Opposition) dare not form a Ministry,
was only a Prime Minister upon sufferance. -(CheerB toot
the Irish Members.) The' Noble Lord was taken because
and they didt wes
dare because they had not a majority.-(Cheers.) Vi 12,,t his
it, then, that so
thinshacked the Noble Lord? Why, iteLee.)
It was this, the greatest of all blunders
own most unwise, mo statesmanlike conduct. -(L'"'-isill
-naneelYtt ssehle
which falsified the whole life of the Noble Lord. I,,",eanterS
Lord had gained power by fighting the battle of the battlevias of
-the party of the Noble Lord, by fighting the d
to
the Roman Catholics from 1800 to 1829, had gain!. been
admiration of the world. And now what did they hea_eeia-
the Noble Lord? an argument which was from teh
.49b?....
ning to the end an argument against the Bill f '7e step,
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had taken a retrogrre'ova
and he would find that in the attempt to do so, 11 ender
others who had made a similar attempt, that
lie theould be
your to stop the onward progress of mankind, -e %ready'
destroyed.- (Hear. hear.) It was quite clear he la he Noble
destroyed.-(Cheers from the Irish Members.)
Lord was not the First Minister of the Crilnist(rewahteierol_nr.er::
The Noble Lord's Administration was no Ad
(Cheers.) The Noble Lord's Government had no P°,4 every-
could do nothing for or against his own opinions; an"as over
body understood that the moment this discussion was
the Noble Lord's Administration was at an discus
lose
In a few days after this question was over, some reit quot
tions affecting the policy of this country would be bra The
forward, and what 'hen would be the consequence? ded
Noble Lord had offended all his friends. He had offehhat
all his liberal friends in England, who had believed that
the cause of civil and religious liberty would be secure,
,`",rd
neath his banner; and to whom, then, was the Noble no'
to look for support, or by whom would his mrjoritlf ~0
made ? He never saw a greater contrast than in the reeePtivet
the other evening by the House of the Right Hon. Oatennee
had concluded and the other rose to addrss the
the Alemb r for Ripon and the Noble Lord, when the -
"louse'
The cheers that greeted the Right Hon. Gentlemen ivere:rt°;
House. The Noble Lord had attempted to
hement, even fierce and unanimous; they were, too, theee--
speech, and his only supporters were on that (the
cheers, and they were from that (the ,Ministerial) side 0, t
answer that
side of the House. And what cheers were they ?-damPirle
and annihilating to the spirit of the Noble Lord. That ifvt.._.s
a_most marvellous contrast, and the Noble Lord felt. en.
(Hear, hear)-that his support had been gained from h.''
ids.
ponents, and that his friends were no ionger his h.'
dd
He looked upon the Bill as the greatest calamity t.ha..tßill of
happen in this country. He had hoped with the osed
1829 all the bitter animosities of religion would have p
~.ok.
away. It was at such a time that Cardinal Wisenesnl'ula
ese hie La"
that most imprudent step; and now the esoe
and they
raised up a spirit which would not be quelled, ''_,,,,. the
would find those miserable feelings continue loonegti;esehte
outcry had continued, and then 'the last act I
his previous
Lord's public life would be in opposition to Put down thee
Opposition
career.-(Hear, hear.) Now an attempt thear.) Then les
hierarchy in Ireland would fail-Hear'between England
was told there ought to be a distinctie I
and Ireland. In Ireland there were nearl..
were danger in Ire-
If
g out a
England the Catholics were few. in carryin ..
land, and in England there WaS pone tr in proceed
prosecution, then it was merely spite and bigo. y:
vi
be
said
ing against the Roman CatholieS ill England . i.ilv°olild oreot
it would be impossible to make any law whlcL,- bean,
the c near, - tr.
one without affecting the other.-e .Ha b
'anger
Ile would not detain the House any' -inefficient..
'1,000,000 ; but in
lieved that the Bill in itself would prove whollyd
i never
He believed that if the Bill became law it
nhe ginliter3;
injurious; and the Roman Catholic Members";
Noble
the power that they had, would use it to coerce the
the
but then he said that, in spite of all the efforts
th
- eir witli°ls'
Lord and his supporters, and in spite of all , gear.,
..,
their power would fail, and their Ministry
.fall. l
offer a fe "
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL felt desiroue to offer Bill, and
observations on the subject of the debate and ,Tbe as con-
he pledged the House that in doing so he shone"... made her
cise as be possibly could. With the observat '
eeleented to by
the Honourable Member for Midhuret, and -si the House
the almost universal voice on that side p_ :t was no,
namely, that in the present attempt at legislation
the oightt
ould
the wish or intention, in any respect whatever, la
iritual ao'
est or most remote degree. to interfere with the
cspaeholio len
tien or conscientious feelings of any Rea° -ked uPy-
that country, he entirely agreed. They I°e eeelieg
the purely spiritual actions and conscientious. co•
of that, as of every other class of the tier of
munity, as sacred principles, but it was a tal“..urea
the utmo-t importance to consider whether the Ine!aitin
adopted by the Pope-the act, as t was called, of alfigg_2ls tees
-had not some temporal action, some influence
: t_u"would
other than spiritual, which might have, and which 6009
classes in this country, and if thev found that it ha_enteet
have, a prejudical effect on the temporal liberties ofd sacle
action and such influence, it was the duty of the Govel,oe...
to interpose to prevent that effect from taking_ Pb'ezir tee
(Hear, hear.) The only question, then, was vibe,t _unreel
meausure proposed would be sufficient to repel and
the
rc.o,
that aggression. It , ould be his aim to show that t2r,Turtsee
visions of the Bill were amply effective. The Hon. that tee
for Sheffield, in the course of his speech, said ci be
canon law did not exist in this country, and that it
svou.;,„;roe,
idle to suppose that the Pope would introduce it-,"entle-
with all respect for the Honourable and Learned , the
v
des
man, he was much mistaken-he did not understana ear
operation- and he (the Attorney-General) would enid collie
to explain the mode in which the canon law weelbe re
into operation in this country, in accordance with tiss,i. i!
vision of the Papal rescript. The canon ieaitio,
was universally admitted, could only be , ut eaY
into effect by bishops of territorial titles. Ile nee" hi,, not
that there may be bishops in the Catholic Ch"rteiolf•be'
bishops of territorial districts. There was a distinc aed
tween bishops exercising ecclesiastical funbefor°
bishops of territorial districts, and it was, as he badnut:°Q
stated, by the latter that the canon law could be .

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o bad
t tiro'
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