The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-18 00:00:00

EAST INDIA HOUSE-( THIS DAY.)

At 12 o'clock to-day a meeting of the proprietors of East
India Stock took place, when the debate respecting the propo_
sitions of his Majesty's Government was resumed.
A short discussion took place as to the propriety of printing
other documents which had not previously been ordered to be
printed.
It was moved and carried that they be printed.

Captain GOWAN rose. In feeling it his duty to express his
sentiments, he must assure the proprietors that nothing which
he should say would be actuated by a desire to inflict pain or•
any one, but he was desirous ofspeaking only of the system, and
not of men. All the evils now felt in India, he was convinced.
were derived from the continuance of a bad system, and he re-
joiced to find that the period had at length arrived, when that
system was tottering to its basis.—(Hear, hear.) He spot,
practically, and he could prove his assertions, if a commissiot
were sent out to India. With regard to the trade to China, it
was very properly proposed, that henceforth that monopoly
should cease.—(Hear.) England had a right to demand i',
and India would be, in consequence, better governed. The
hermophrodite character of commerce and legislation.
united, (as was proved as regarded the Dutch,) was im
politic—(Hear)—and one, if not both, those characters must
of necessity be neglected.—(Hear.) He thought that all tin
injuries which were spoken of as likely to arise from the pro.
posed change were illusory and speculative. Practical men of
great eminence, whom he had consulted, had expressed th. i
conviction that none of those injuries were likely to be created
Who were the parties who wished to uphold the present
system ? The Hong merchants themselves, a great monopo
lizing body, were opposed, of course, to the extinction of another
great monopolizing body. Was It not their interest, who hac
largely prospered upon the present system to insist on tin
existence of the close, the rotten, and boroughmongerinp
system ? The trade to China was now to be no longer
subject to debate, for there could be no doubt that by openi;:;
it it would be improved.—(Hear, hear.) This Company wa-
not now in the same situation as it was when the last charter
was granted. All Europe seas then closed against the Chin,
trade, and America had little commerce there ; but now this
Company had to contend against all foreign countries tha
were now rivalling it. By the last advices wh;ch he had see,
from China, he found there were at the latest dates 75 vessel-
loading there, of which 40 were British, 30 American. and
the rest Danish and French. There were, therefore,3o American
vessels—(A cry of " No, no ;" and " You should state nothiti,,
on information you did not know to be correct.") He wa,
speaking from information which he believed to be correct,
and of course he could not have been expected to know th.
facts of his ow❑ knowledge. He would still assert that was
the case, and if that assertion was without foundation, In
should be glad to hear it refuted. The gentleman who bar
given him that information was a person of eminence
in the city, who had assured him that such was tin
fact, and added that a great merchant at Canton had sent t,
this country a large order for goods, which would be conveyer
there by American ships. How were these goods to be pai,
for? why by bills, which would be carried out from this county}
to buy teas with. They had been told that there was no sale for
these goods at China, why was that the case ? Why, becaust
captains sold those goods at so high a rate that the China mer-
chant had expressed his determination not to buy the articles
manufactured in this country second hand. The)
had the goods, therefore, brought from the manufacture
conveyed to them by American ships. The Court
had said that if the trade to China was thrown open
it would lead to smuggling. He did not see the possibility or
such a result, the Hong merchants, he had no doubt, woulc
say that it would do so, but he trusted the Court of Proprietors
would not be intimidated by such a scare-crow.—(Cheers.) It
had been again said that the merchants would not dea:
with any person but the Company. He was sure the
merchants of China knew their interests better than to
adopt such a course. There might jealousies and diffi.
culties arise, but he was sure the merchants of China would
find their own advantage, and submit both adoptions of such
trade. There was another difficulty with which the proprietors
were to be hoaxed; that the representative of the King in
China would not be so effective as the Company's Select Com-
mittee. It was true the Hong merchants were playing into the
hands of the Select Committee, but the Indians respected Royalty
and it was not, therefore, to be supposed that his Majesty's
representative, if he acted fairly in Canton, would not meet
with that respect in that country, as the Company's Com.
mittee would do. The idea was nonsensical. Then another
difficulty was, the loss of the patronage of the Company. In
that loss he rejoiced more than anything That patronage had
induced Directors to adopt courses, which he was sure they
never would have pursued as private individuals. He should
be most happy to see the arrival of that period, when
such thraldom would be done away with.—(Hear.) He could
not altogether agree with the proposition which was to deprive
the Company of their political functions, as that would give
great patronage of the Crown. He was not certain that India
would benefit by it, he knew the grievances India had endured
and he trusted that all would be done to alleviate her ; he
trusted they would do towards India as they would be done by.
He was sure that no man present would sanction the conduct
of a young Judge in India who had expressed his determination
not to hear cases before sunrise, and who would not hear
cases at all unless it just pleased him—(Hear)----and who, i.
there was the least appearance of delay, went into a furious
passion. Was that, he would ask, the way to make the native,
of India contented with the government of the Company. He
knew full well, that when improper conduct had been pursued
by any of the Company's servants, the thunder of the Company's
displeasure was sent out to India, but the great distancr
between that country and England, rendered such redress as
was sent of no use to the party complaining. If the Com.
pany wished to be really the representatives of the people
of India, they must strive, with all their might, to make
that Court a sufficient control over and a shield and pro-
tection between that country and Ministers.—(Loud cheers.;
The judicial system of India was the source of all the grievances
of that country. All arose from the jealousy that existed,
by which the natives were kept from places of trust and power
in the Government of the country, which were kept for the
purpose of providing places for the sons and nephews of tin
Directors. He called upon them not to be so blind to the real
welfare of India, but to look a little at the condition of the
people,—they were the first that ought to be considered. Let
them be placed in the places of Justices, &c., and do not
any longer say, No, we must keep them for our sons and
other dependents. Was It a proper system which allowed one
man, nay he might say one boy to preside over five millions
of people, for he himself had known young men who had not
been three years in India appointed to such places ? Now
what were the consequences of such appointments ? Why
one he had seen in a native paper only a short time ago,
where a hamildar had publicly received five stripes on hi,
back, because he had offended some Portuguese writer, who
was a favourite. The consequence of such punishment in that
country was most awful, for never more could that man bolo
up his head among his countrymen. Was that likely to
make the natives more in love with the rule of Englishmen ?
And all this arose from the manner in which the boys wert
appointed to seats on the judgment seat, as if the sons of Directors
were judges from their birth. He had been informed of ano.
ther most atrocious case, of a man who now held a high situa.
tion, who, when a magistrate, had inflicted corporal punish.
ment on a most respectable native, aged 64, whose feelings wen
so much hurt that he went home and put an end to his life.
Hon. Proprietors would be ashamed of the system, when he told
them that the only fault or crime of the old man was that he
would not lend his judge some money.
(This gave rise to loud cries of name, name—put him down
—no right, and great confusion.)

After a time Mr. CRAWFURD was heard speaking to order
He said, if the Hon. Proprietor did not wish to be thought a
mere dec aimer, he would at once state the authority on which
he made such a statement.

Mr. RIGBY said, neither that Court, nor any other one, had a
right to make such a demand. The Hon. Proprietor was tht
best judge of what he would do in order to justify any state.
ments that he might make ; but no one could call upon him to
snake such a statement as would make himself liable to the
penalties of the law.
Captain GOWAN believed that there was no one who knew
him but was aware that he was not very anxious, at an)
time, to go from what he had said, or to refuse to take its
consequences. The Hon. Proprietor read a letter, detailing:
the case, as given above.
The CHAIRMAN begged to ask what was the date of the letter.
Captain GOWAN said it had no date—the fact was, it had
been sent to him anonymously.
This announcement again gave rise to immense uproar, and
loud cries of " Shame."

A PROPRIETOR spoke to order. Considering the import-
ance of the subject under consideration, he did not think
that they ought to be kept sitting there to hear libels uttereu
on such slight grounds.
Dr. Gamma said there was a letter received by Mr.
M'Kinnon on the last day, ani no one got up to ask whether it
was signed, or who was the writer.
The CHAIRMAN believed that the only way in which to get
on, and save time, was to hear the observations of every one
who addressed them. He had no doubt the Hon. Proprietor
would not again go so far against the expressed wish of the
Court.

Sir CHARLES FORTIES begged to say that the impression on
his mind was that the letter referred to by Mr. M`Kinnon
was one written by himself, and addressed to a friend of his in
England. . _

A PROPRIETOR wished to know from the lion. Chairmai
whether it was in order to read anonymous letters in a speech
The CHAIRMAN said it was very unusual.
Captain GO WAN was perfectly aware that the Court die
not like the truths which he was addressing to them. H,
began by saying that he did not wish to hurt the feelings of an)
one; it was the sysiem he complained of, or he might
have named many persons. He would not have read the letter
had he not been pressed to do so by the Hon. Proprietor opposite.
He would now come to the question of the annuities. He
would not proceed further with referring to his espees, although
he had a large catalogue of facts, not anonymous, but all within

tiffs own knowledge. lie merely hoped he had said enough
,r) show that the Govern: e, t of ti.e.a W. slut 8., per,cc: as
t ought to be.—(Cries of " No,: no.")
He was of that
Opinion. it
to thehreg Company, h
ardtothestie thought
f63oht
10:2C,:/t1. tto
wasbe a paidvery
'air compromise —(Hear.) He could not see that their assets
Government."'
were of the value which some gentlemen attached to them.
Where were they ? He thought it would be injudicious if the
Company rejected the offer, for they would, in fact, be buying
up a debt of 30,000/. a year. He had conversed with a very able
and intelligent native now in England, Rammohun Roy, who
was of opinion that the substitution would be a very good one
and productive of great benefit connected with the other advan.
ages to be expected by the change. They would, in fact, be
buying up a debt of 660,0001 a year, and substituting for it a
lebt of 630,0001. with exactly the same security.—(Hear
mar, hear.) As for additional security he navel
'card that any one dreaded that the payment of the intereef
'f the Bengal: loan was in danger. Rammohun Roy Was ebne
:ident that India could bear even a much larger burden'. If
they had followed the advice of the Indian Finance Committee,*
which was appointed by Lord William lientinck, they coulee
seduce the expenditure 730,000/ a year, and Only 030,0001.
was the amount of the interest.—(Hear, hear.) tie had
ilso the opinion of Mr. Holt Mackenzie (a man who had rani
tore good to India than any other, and who was the Ist's,"
financier India ever had,) that lndla could bear the burden.
Chat gentleman had greatly reduced the Indian debt, and
such was the respect entertained of him by a late Chairman,
that he proposed to nominate him President of the Supreme
Council. Yes; that was the man whom some gentlemen
wished was sent from the situation he held on the Board of
Control ! He wished that gentleman was present to defend
himself against the petty attacks made against his character in
• his Court. But although some gentlemen would sit and hear
with complacency their officers lauded to the skies, they could
'sot bear to hear any one speak of the errors or misconduct of
*heir officers. He knew that the salaries paid to officers of the
civil service in India were much too high. Their servants
:ere greatly overpaid, and that system prevented the
employment of natives.—(Hear.) Natives could be well em.
Toyed as collectors (the duties of which they, in fact, now didl
it 500 rupees per month, while the Company Were payino
V.uropeans 2,000 rupees. They must also cut ofr all ilidi
eacaphernaea of civil officers—such as silver sticks and belief
such things, which were wholly useless,but which cost large et.4ere
if money.—(Hear.) With regard to the security of the'
.3,000/. in the funds belongingto theist, he thought it was only
(Air to add that to the le2oo,oool.—(Heare If they chase to
40 to war for their own aggrandizement, of course they sthddltt
ke the consequences, and pay for it. But if :MY thing
bappened at Canton, which they could not control, it was onq
reasonable that Government should indemnify them, and h'
tad no doubt that Mr. Grant would accede to such a reason-
able claim. He could not, however, agree in the claim for
my additional guarantee for payment ofthe dividends.--e-(Hear.)
le knew that India was quite capable of bearing all the
eurdens on it if they reduced the expendi ure. As to the
jualification of Proprietors, and their right of voting', tit
nought all that was very trumpery stuff.—(Laughter.) lie
`moped another system would be adopted, and that a
•lifferent order of Proprietors, with difi'erent privileges would
)e established.—(Hear, hear.) They should have the Indian
tublic represented in Parliament and in this Court—(Hear)
.n order to protect Indian interests. Hitherto all e'ections had
been conducted without reference to India at all, and the el c.
dons had been like those formerly practised at Old Serum—
,Laughter and hear.) He would cut down the number
if Directors and have only the ablest of them selected. He
thought 10 would be quite enough, and the system of solicit eticiti
.which many eminent men would not stoop to, destroyed. The
,resent shape of that Court was a mere farce.—(A laugh.) He
could now advert to the question of patronage. Oh! that
tatronage, what harm had it not done to India, and what cor-
ruption had it not scattered among the Company.---(Loud cries
of " Hear, hear.") He knew a Director, who said that that
tatronage was the bane of, his life.—(Hear.) He knevi thh
Court were embarrassed with numerous applications. lil
would propose to put it up to auction—that men should be
properly educated, and pay for their situations, the money
raised from which to go towards paying off' the debt.—
;Hear, hear.) As to Heylesbury College, it was a nuisance,
and had been so described in the House of Commons, and it
ought to be abolished. They well knew what a ruinous
expense it was, and what a source of mischief, vice, and profli.
gacy it was also, and that it was kept up solely for patronsge.--
; Hear, hear.) The Military College, he thought, ought to be.
Kept up for the education of military men. He was of °pinto',
that any British subject ought to have the right to go out to
India and reside there—(Hear)—and that great benefit would
arise from colonising that country, for as his friend, Sit C.
Metcalf, said twenty years ago, that until it was colonisedi
the resources of India would never be ascertained.—(Hears
hear.) The wealth of India was being frivolously wasted.
Gold and silver were converted into articles of ornament instead
of being made articles of commerce. There was one proposi.
tion of Government that he could never agree to. lie did not
like the attempt to interfere with the power of the Company td
recall their Govenor-General, or their Commander-in-Chief
He did not think Mr. Grant could have been wide awake
when he made such a proposition.--(A laugh.) As to the
oheck which the Board of Control had upon the granting of
pensions by the Company, he thought the Directors were far
too fastidious on that point. The Board had hithefto
exercised that power, and never once in an obnoxidue
manner ; and therefore it ought to be continued. He was
sorry he could not agree with the Honourable and Gal-
lant General (Sir John Malcolm) in imagining that evils
would arise from a free press in India.—(Hear.) He was fa-
vourably inclined to its being established, and he hoped it
would be.—(Hear, hear.) Nor could he perceive any objections
to the Missionariss, who, he knew, had done great good in
India, and who had assisted him in establishing the first
school in Delhi.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
In his opinion this country, instead of exciting the Indians,
ought to pride itself in civilising India, making it a country of
freemen by rescuing them from slavery. There was no country
on earth so easy of management, if kindness was exercised to
it. The natives were easily satisfied, and why was it that
-his country had made such conquests there? Why, be.
cause the Indians felt that they had been more oppressed
under their old rulers, than under the Government of Eng.
and. If justice were only made cheap in India, much
cheaper than in the country; and if the right of the people of
that country were respected, they would be soon reconciled to
the Government of this country.—(Hear, hear.) The state-
ments that had been made, that Ministers were actuated by the
.ame motives in adopting the present measures as actuated them
in passing the Reform Bill was most amusing.—(Hear.) He
would venture to assert that nine out of every ten of the in.
habitants of this country were anxious for the extirpation of
she China monopoly ; and was it, therefore, to be said, that
Ministers had thrown this measure out as a sop to gain popu-
larity ?he could not believe it. The Duke of Welling.
tots was the first who had originated the extirpation
of the China monopoly. Did he wish to court popu.
I artty ?—(Cheers.) That the trade should be thrown open
was the wish of the whole country, and he thought it im-
possible to resist it.—(Loud cheers.) He had no doubt
the present Government would be idolized by the coun.
cry, for bringing forward this act of common justice;
they deserved well of their country, although they
might incur the hatred of some few interested individuals.
—;Cheers) He admitted with the Honourable Baronet
that with respect to cottons the conduct of the Company was
extremely hard. They made the Indian receive their cotton goods
and would not take in return their raw sugars,—on that sub-
ject time Company kept the promise to the ear, but broke it to
•he hope. He thought some of the Hon. Proprietors who had
addressed the Court had pressed too hardly upon the
Right Hon. President of the Board of ControL It was to be
remembered that a change of position often caused a change
f opinions.—(Cheers.) He believed, upon the present ecca.
sion, the Right Hon. Gent, had been actuated by the good of his
country, and not by any sordid motivets.—(Cheers.) Did not
Sir Robert Peel change his opinion when he brought forward
:he Catholic Bill—(Loud cheers)—and why should not
:he Right Honourable President of the Board of Controul
ee at liberty to change his when circumstances called for that
change. With respect to the expenses of the Company, he
thought the whole of the civil salaried of India, including the
Judges and Law Officers of the Compahy, ought to be
reduced to twenty-five per cent., which ought to be ap.
elied to the reduction of the debt. Many of the half-appointments
if India ought to be pared down. Then, at home, what had
,he Company been doing with the Nabob of Arcott's debts?
l'he course that had been pursued by the Company in that
:espect, was a disgrace to them. He objected to the breakfasts
luncheons and tavern dinners, they were intolerable, and un-
worthy of the Court of Directors.—(Laughter.) Then what
did the Company mean to do with their great house. He
understood that its cost in repairing, taxes, and other things
amounted to no less a sum than 50.0001.—(Hear, hear.) When
the Court of Directors was reduced to six, there
would be plenty of room for them in Cannon-street.—(Great
laughter.) Then there was the establishment in which
:here were more clerks than any other establishment in
this country. Then the messengers of the Company—there
was such a redundancy of them that he met them in every
part of London carrying about game and cafpct bags,—(Hear,
and cheers.) Such things ought not to be; they must be done
:sway will, and when they were coupled with good government
in India, he was sure no Proprietor need be under the least ap.
prehension of regularly receiving their dividends. The
lion. Proprietor thanked the Court for the patient hearing
they had given him, and concluded by expressing his determi.
nation publicly to expose everything tending to injure the peso.
ale of this country,

Mr. SsLomoss addressed the Court at considerable length,
but as he spoke in a low tone of voice. and with hid back to.
xards the reporters, he was very imperfectly heard. We un-
lerstood him to object to the security that was offered for the
~ayment of the annuities, and he proposed an amendment as
follows :

" 'fly. That the Company, exercising the same powers as
they now possess under their charter. shall continue to admi-
nister the Government of India fora defined period, and if de-
ori ved of it at the expiration of that term, or at any time pre.
vious to the termination of the annuity. The Government
than guarantee to the proprietors the punctual payment of
their annuity until the period at which the principal will be-
come payable at the rate of 1001. for each 54 ss. of
annuity,
whi
in
eya is
nc r.'w "
annuity, and whenever paid off, they will be entitled, if they
-hall see fit, with their capital, or any portion thereof, to
pro-
d b
The CHAIRMAN said, as there were a set of resolutons now
oefore the Court, as well as an amendment, the present one
resume,ose
ytheir
his
Majesty'sundou bt undoubted rightinisMinisters
e rs to .
h trade,oud
becould not be received till they were disposed o which
abeyance."
it
f.
(We shall give the remainder in a Second Edit ion '
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