The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-15 00:00:00

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tale some steps for the better Lad more speedy transmis-
sion of writs and returruiirroerieral, as there were frequently
cases occurring of delay,. arising either from accident, or
the miseonduct of the returning efiicer.
Lot d ALTHORP, in movine theooler of the day that
the House go into Committee of Supnly, reepiested that the
votes might be allowed to pees without opposition. He
should be Berry to preclude any Honourable Member
from entering into any discussions ; but it would be a
great convenience to the public service if the motions
which were to be made on the eccasion were reserved until
the remainder of the estimates were brought fie ward, and
till the discussions on the measure relative to the arrears
of tithe were finished.
Mr. HUAIE had not hesitated last night in acceding to
the request of the Neble Lord to postpone his motion on
the stihjset of the inhabited house duty, fee the purpose
of facilitating the public service, on the understand-
ing that he should be allowed to bring it forward
on the next occasion. He begged to take that opportunity
of asking the Secretary of the Treasury whether soy
measures had been adopted in consequence of an extensive
seizure of contraband silks which had been niade in the port
of London ? An idea was entertained, he hoped without
foundation, that the matter had beau allowed io sleep; but
he trusted the Right lion. Gentleman would fareur him
with an answer as to the state of the proceetlinv.
Mr. SPRING RICE bad not heard anything of tie
matter until an Honourable Member hid pot sou c
papers into his hand, with the view of rnovine-
for some returns that were relative to it. Ile
(Mr. Spring Rice) had, however, imuletiiately commuM.
cated with the Customs Department, by whom the pr.,.
ceedings were insti uted ; and, as soon as he received en
answer, he would communicate it to the Hen. Mendel':
Lord ALTHORP stated, in answer to a queetinoi
put to him by Mr. GrsnonstP., that sufficient time would
be allowed between the introduc.ion of the 13.11 relative to
Joint-Stock and County Banks, and the eecond reading,
35 would enable the iJirtieg interes:cd to form their up)-
pions as to its provi,io,ei, and cowl:ltalie-4e thetn to' the
House.
Mr. RUTH VEN, jun., wished to ask a querliorra tles
nature of which we could not hear.
Lord ALTHORP suggested that it would he more cone
venient for the Hon. Member to delay th,.- question, as he
was very desirous of renewing the order of the day for
the House to resolve itself into a Cenuraittee.
Another HON. MEMBER wished to ask another geese
tion, but it was objected to on the same ground.
Lord ALTHORP moved the order of tie day for
whole House to resolve itself into a Committee for further
supplies to be granted to his Majesty.
Mr. COBBETT said he could not let further time pass
without rising, respecting a subject to which be had more
than once called attentions,
Mr. S. RICE begged to put it to the Hon. Me:Tibet
• whether it would not be equally consistent
his views, and more so with the du ties t
hA
House owed to the public, that he should take the pepere
he had now to offer him to read, as probably their con-
tents would satisfy him, and thereby prevent the neces-
sity of a third discussion on this subject, there having
been two already.
Mr. COBBET said that of the 6bB Members in that
House, he was one who had given as little trouble, and
wasted the time of the public as little as any man ii. it.—
(Laughter.) If the House was not orderly, said the lion;
Member, its time shall be delayed. I must be heetd, end
the time of the House must be delayed.—(Confusion,)
It is a mistake to suppose that I shall riot be heard, but,
if I am not (turning round towards the gallery, and witfi
emphasis), the House shall have no indul7ence again at
my hands, I do assure you.—(Cries of " Order, order.")
The SPEAKER said he was quite sure, if the
Member wished to conciliate tie House of Commons, such
,t age was not the language he ought to use there.
If the Hon. Member kept himself within order, and
wanted eny assistance, he (Mr. Speaker) would be happy
to afford him all that was in his power.
Mr. COBBETT trusted his power would he sufficient.
The lion. Member, who spoke low, and still amidst
some confusion, was understood to say that his
motion related not to the Stamp Aet, but the
probate duty, and when it was objected that matters
would interfere with the public business, he thought
what he wished to bring forward was as much entitled to
be called public business as any thing else.
Lord ALTHORP answered that it was the intention of
the Government to persevere in the plan it had announced
upon that subject.
The House then went into a Committee of Supply, when
on the motion of Mr. S. RICE, 100,0001. was granted to
his Majesty, for the discharge of the civil contingencies
to the 31st March, 1834.

TITHES (IRELAND) ACT.
The order of the day was then read, for going into
Committee on the Tithes (Ireland) Act.
Mr. SINCLAIR wished to ask his Noble Friend
whether he really thought that the money about to he
voted for defraying the arrears due to the Irish clergy
would ever be reimbursed ? He was inclined to think,
that, in this instance, as well as in many others, a loan
was synonymous with a gift, and that it would turn out
so in the end, when the period for repayment arrived.
Lord ALTHORP had no doubt but it would he paid
into the Exchequer, as it would be levied in the ►hape of
a general tem.
Sir R. PEEL understood only such land as had not paid
tithe should he subject to the proposed tax.
Lord ALTHORP—The plan was to have all titheable
land taxed, but to allow receipts for tithes to be given
in payment of the tax.
Mr. HUME said it would be satisfactory to know if
any of the money advanced last year to the Irish clergy,
had been recovered?
Lord ALTHORP said that the amount recovered was
very small.
Mr. BARRON complained of the extraordinary mea-
sures lately used for collecting tithes. lie had that day
received a letter from Waterford, complaining of th'ise
measures. That letter was from the inhabitants of a
parish in the county, stating thut the costs of tithe pro.
secutions were enormous. He had a question to put to
the Noble Lord—hew were those costs to be provided
for ? He advised that a total stop should be put to those
proceedings, if not, Ireland would soon be in a worse
state than she was in 1795. His county was prover-
bially a quiet one, but now it was iu the most dread-
ful state of distutbance, all caving to the way tithes were
exacted.
Lord ALTHORP—The Hon. Gentleman must be
aware that the power of Government extended only to the
debts due to it, and not to those due to individuals. With
those debts, therefore, he could not interfere. He hoped
that gentlemen would find that it would not be necessary
for the future to have recourse to the proceedings already
so much complained of.
Mr. BARRON again asked a question respecting the
costs of tithe proceedings.
Lord ALTHORP said that the reason costs were larger
now than before was, that the proceedings were instituted
in the Court of Exchequer.
Mr. BARRON (amid much confusion) denied that the
proceedings took place in the Exchequer Court.
Mr. E. RUTHYEN rose to present a petition, of which
he had given notice, respecting the conduct of the p dice
of Ireland. The Hon Gentleman was proceeding to state
instances of the illegal conduct of the police when aiding
in the collection of tithe, when
The SPEAKER interfered.
Mr. H. GRATTAN hoped that the House would listen
to facts relative to the conduct of the police in Ireland.
He held in his band a statement of facts which he had
received that day, and which related to some of his tenants
who bad been arrested for tithes. Fifteen cases had bap-
petted in the county of Monaghan, in one parish, belong-
ing to the Rev. Mr. Roper. Those persons had offered to
pay the tithes, and place money in the bands of the officer,
or tithe proctor; but the money was refused by Chief Con-
stable Mansfield, and the houses of these persons were
broken open by the police; they were maltreated, and
their property seized and sold for less than its value. Had
the Right Hon. Secretary issued orders that such pro-
ceedings should take place ? Either be must have done
so, or the police have acted on their own responsibility ;
for be bad an answer from Lord Anglesea, denying that
Ilia Excellency had issued any such orders, and reprobat-
ing the proceedings of the constables. The main cause
of the disturbances in Ireland was the conduct of the po-
lice with respect to tithes ; and whilst Ireland was so
treated, its inhabit Int' could not remain in quiet, and
they would not be doing their duty to their country or to
themselves, if they allowed themselves to be oppressed,
whether by Whigs or Tories ; and if his opinion were
asked, he declared to God that it was his opinion that the
Tories would be better fur Ireland. The conduct of the
Government in the case of Walsh was disgraceful ; that
individual was now lying in gaol, for haring acted ac•
cording to his conscience. If the shade of Bonaparte
could witness the tyranny exercised towards Ireland it
would be pleased, for never did Bonaparte in his lifetime
exercise more tyranny than was now exercised towards
Ireland. The tyranny under which his country groaned
.vas the very worst species of t}ranny; for it was domes-
tic tyranny, and if there was a fight sacred, it was otie in
such a cause. If ever such a battle should be fought, be
would not be the last in joiniug in it. Houses e eie
woken into, the daughters of re ap• etAhle persons ue'e
nail-rated, and the most disgrac-ful conduct was exhibited
au the part of an irresponsible body of sues. the heavy

wisitat:on of the leve should fall on those who were really
guilty. if the Right Hon. Secretary for I:eland did nut
agree with him in opita;cn on this point, and offer some
explanation with respect to the conduct of the Govern-
ment towards those of the police who were proved to have
gone further than their duty authorized them, he sboula
in Committee that night move as an amendment to ti e
second resolution the resolution which had the other night
been proposed by the Hon. Member for Weterford.
Mr. LITTLETON thought it was e bad plan to be
continually makingstatements not founded in fact, and to he
raising arguments upon them, since no good could result
from such a course, but on the contrary much evil. Such
a course only tended to add to the excitement which pre-
vailed in Ireland. For himself, he had considerable
doubts as to the correctness of the greater number of these
statements. He had heard of many similar statements,
but when be consulted the papers of the Irish Office, he
did not find theta recorded. Now with respect to the
two police cases so frequently adverted to—he meant the
ease of the police lnspector in the county Kildare, and the
case of sergeant Shaw—he begged to state to the House
that the former was dismissed, and that the latter was
ordered to be tried. With respect to the Faye charge
against Shaw, he was surprised at the opinion of the
magistrates before whom his case was brought. It was
extremely lenient in them to say what they did of the con-
duct of Shaw. He hoped that the House would be sat is-
fied with this explanation, and Hon. Gentlemen might be
assured that Government were determined to do their
duty with respect to Ireland. He was convinced, and
Hon. Gentlemen might be convinced, that the Noble Lord
at the head of the Irish Government was determined to do
justice by that country. No individual of that Ileuse
could display more anxiety than the Noble Lord towards
what was taking place in Ireland. He had received that
very day a communication from his Excellency, in which
the fact was stated that no military aid was granttd in the
collection of tithes, unless when affidavit was made that
such aid was necessary. When such affidavit was made,
of course his Excellency could not refuse the aid demanded.
Tithe property ought to be protected, as well as any other
kind of property.
Mr. O'CONNELL was certain that be was expressing
the sense of that House, as well as his own, when be de-
clared that the explanation of the Right Hon. Secretary
was perfectly satisfactory.
Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR said, however the lion.
and Learned Member for Dublin might lie pleased with the
explanation just made, thete was a portion of it with
which he did net at all feel satisfied. That portion of it
was that in which the Right Hon. Secretary said he had
referred to the papers of the Irish Office for the truth of
the casts complained of. Now what they on that side
particularly complained of was, the incorrectness of the
information sent to the Irish Office, the consequence of
which wae, that Government received improper informa-
tion about what was taking place in Ireland.
Mr. LITTLETON said that if any Hon. Member
would move for an inquiry, it would at once be gi titted ;
or if the two cases mentioned by the Hon. Members oppo-
site were brought before the Government in an authentic
manner, he would himself institute such an inquiry with-
out any partiality.
Mr. RONAYNE said that the Noble Lord (Lord Dun-
eannon) had stated on a former evening that only one case
had occurred in Munster, namely that of Captain Gunn.
Now he had received a letter from that place in which it
was stated that the constables were out every night, and
on the writer of the letter asking them how they dared to
do so in the teeth of Lord Althorp's speech, the answer
was :hat they had received no orders to the contrary ;
and it was added, that the police were more active now
than before they saw the report of his Lordship's speech
in the newspapers. He was glad to hear that Captain
Fainter had been dismissed ; but he begged it to be recol-
lected that that was the same Captain Flinter whose letter
was quoted by the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies,
and received by the House with great applause.
Mr. STANLEY bad certainly quoted the letter of
Captain Fainter, but he had likewise quoted the answer
sent to it by the Irish Government; and it was because
the explanation given by Captain Flinter, in reply to that
answer, was not satisfactory, that be was dismissed.
Lord DUNCANNON had not said that the case of
Captain Gunn was the only one which had occurred in
Munster, but that it was the only one mentioned in that
House.
Mr. SHAW defended the conduct of the clergy of Ire-
land, and said that it was not fair to make personal attacks
upon them for endeavouring to recover their tithes, of
which they hail been deprived for three years. He de-
nied that he had ever said that the Hon. Member for
Meath was the worst landlord in Ireland; all he had said
was, that the Hon. Member's tenants were very poor, and
that the tithes were therefore worse paid by them than any
where else.
After a few words from Mr. H. GRATTAN,
Mr. RUTHVEN said, that Ministers were perpetually
deluding themselves upon the subject of tithes in Ireland.
He would advise them to get some more information on
ti e suba: et before they came to any determination what
they should do.
The Howie then resolved itself into a Committee upon
the Tithes (Inland) Act.
The CHAIRMAN read the first resolution, " That it
was the opinion of that House that a certain sum of money
should be advanced by Parliament to the established clergy
in Ireland, in order to enable thetn to relieve the occupying
tenantry from the payment of tithe, the money to be pay-
able by a land tax," &c. Upon which
Mr. O'CONNELL took those resolutions as a proof of
a disposition on the part of Government to put an end to
the bad system under which tithes were levied, and to the
civil war which they occasioned. If there was anything
to which he objected in the plan, it was the manner in
which the land tax was to be raised. One of the great
grievances attending the tithe system had always been, that
they were raised by distraint. Under the present plan,
the same system of restraint, and all the distress which
usually accompanied it, would continue. A great deal
had teen said upon the subject of breaking open bosses in
order to aistrain for goods. He did not believe that un-
der the Act of last year there was any such power given.
His opinion was, that the clergy had done injury to them-
selves by their late conduct : they were very indiscreet in
carrying the measures for the recovery of their tithes so far.
They had broken doors in order to distrain, and that he
would contend was illegal; He thanked his Majesty's Mi-
nisters for tho,te.resolutions, for be took them as a virtual
exti. ction of tithes in Ireland. He felt certain that if
some measures of this land had not been resorted to, there
would have been a civil war throughout Ireland in three
weeks. The whole country had been racked from one side
to the other by the exaction of those tithes, and the dis-
tress cecastoned by them had become quite intolerable.
Such a state of affairs had never been known before. The
clery, irritated by being deprived of their tithes for three
years, hail proceeded to recover them in the harshest and
(1 a would say, on their own account) most imprudent
manner. He denied that there was any law which obliged
the Government to send soldiers out to collect titl.es.
Such a system was not only imprOper, but it was unneces-
sary, as the clergy bad a remedy by applying to the High
Sheriff, who could recover them by the ordinary course of
law. With regard to the rrso:ution proposed by the Noble
Lord, he (Mr. O'Connell) observed, that he stopped with
the reel, siastical tithes. Was the Noble Lord right in
that? Was he not aware that the lay tithes were fully as
had, and fully as obnoxious, as the ecclesiastical tithes?
He (Mr. O'Connell) had a letter in his possession, in which
it was said truly, "The lay tithes are the worst of all, and
the most oppressive."—(Hear.) The system of tithes was
not confined to the clergy, and he would ask why the as-
sistance given by this resolution to the proprietors of
ecclesiastical tithes, and not to the proprietors of lay tithes.
He would answer the question. This assistance was given
to the clergy because by their harsh conduct they had
created excitement in the country. He thought that this
was a species of bounty to the lay impropriators to follow
the same course. It was as if the Government said to
them, " If you succeed in bringing the country to the
BIM@ state yon will then get your money comfortably."--
(Hear.) He would therefore press upon his Majesty's
Government the propriety of extending this resolution to
lay impropriators. What the Irish people complained of
was, that when a measure was proposed which was in-
tended to benefit them, it was frittered away till it was
not worth ' the having; but when a measure of coercion
was intended, they got too much of it. It would be better
and more genial to them if the Ministers only bestowed on
them the fragment of coercion, btit the lull measure of the
benefit.—(Hear, hear.) He was happy to think that the
Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland (perhaps he would al-
low him to call him his friend), bad commenced h's ca-
reer in that country in a way likely to give satisfaction.
--(Hear, hear.) The first act done by him was the dis-
m seal of Captain Flinter, and the second was to order
sergeant Shew upon his trial. No two acts could gain
the Right Hon. Gentleman greater popularity.—(Hear,
hear.) His conduct was evidently dictated by a spit it of
conciliation, and the resolution before them was in the
same spirit.
Lord ALTHORP said, that as the Hon. and L: arned
Member called upon him to say to what extent he n cant
to carry those resolutions, he thought it necessity to
e ' • 'a:- --ezr .. respect to the lay in-Troia-jaw; s, the
, ...... 1:4-; „:1114. tuber would see that the resolution
~,
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7 :117'41 ':',.4 . %tee was not meant to extol to
'4l
*I •• . I i ''', • ut to extend to ecclesiastical
''''''l4 ' \:••••-• ''. Lord Alth ) did not tee au to
it a aai eej : e....:
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