The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, AUGUST 2, 1834.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 1.

The SPEAKER resumed his chair at twenty-f ve minutes pas.
five o'clock.
COUNTY POOR RATE BILL.

Mr. G. STANLEY moved the second reading of the
Lords' amendments to the County Rate Bill.—Agreed to.

UNSEAWORTHY SHIPS.

Mr. ABER CR OMB Y presented a petition from the inha-
bitants of Edinburgh, complaining of the state in which ships
were sent to sea by their owners, and more particularly ships
intended to carry emigrants to the new colonies ; and stating that
in consequence of the unfit state in which those ships were sent
out, the most heart-rending losses of human life had taken place.
The petitioners attributed this line of conduct, on the part
of shipowners, in a great measure to the system of Insurance
classification that existed at Lloyd's, and it prayed that the
House would be pleased to appoint surveyors to in-
quire into and report upon the seaworthiness, or
otherwise of such ships and vessels before they were permitted
to put out to sea.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM agreed entirely with the sentiments
and prayer of the petition. He did not think any subject more
imperatively called for the immediate attention of Parliament.

signed notes which they never meant to pay, and which, in
fact, they were unable to pay.—(" Divide, divide.")
Colonel O'GRADY supported the clause.
Mr. CALLAGHAN contended that the compositions made
under Mr. Stanley's Act were very unfair, and hence the ne-
cessity for these corrective powers.
The clause was read a second and third time, and ordered
to stand part of the Bill.
On reading the clause which enacted that the Commis-
sioners of Appeal for the re-valuation should be barristers of
six years standing.
cfr. O'DW YE R moved that the word " four" be inserted
instead of the word " six."
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
For the amendment
Majority

.-44

On our return to the gallery we found the House proceed-
ing with the other clauses, which, after a few verbal amend-
ments, were agreed to.

The preamble was then agreed to, the report was brought
up and received, and the further consideration fixed for Mon-
day next.

COMMITTEE of WAYS and MEANS—THE BANK.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the House went into
a Committee of Ways and Means.

Lord ALT HO RP said he rose to propose a resolution for
the purpose of inducing the House to agree to an arrangement
he had entered into with the Bank, for the payment of one
quarter of the capital advanced by them, and which, by the
Act of last Session, was directed to be returned early in the
month of October next. The amount to be repaid was
3,671,700/.—one quarter of the actual capital so advanced.
It was his own opinion that it was better to give the Bank an
equivalent in stock rather than to pay them in money, for if
they determined on the latter course it would be necessary to
go into the market for a loan, and this for so small a sum
would be any thing but desirable, inasmuch as it would cause
great confusion, and necessarily be of an unprofitable nature to
the Government. Therefore he had come to the determina-
tion of offering to the Bank, on fair and equitable terms, a
certain amount of stock in lieu of money. The Directors of
the Bank would have preferred to receive the amount by way
of annuity, to expire in ten years, at the time when their privi-
leges, under the Act of last Session, would cease and deter-
mine. Now it would certainly be highly advantageous to the
country to get quit of the obligation altogether in so short a
period of time as ten years ; but the immediate effect of paying
in money would be to thr'ow 3,000,000 into the market, which
would be very unwise in the present state of affairs, leading, as
it certainly would, to results of the most embarrassing charac-
ter. He had not the slightest doubt but that it would have
been a most improvident measure to lay such a charge imme-
diately uppn the revenues of the country. This being the case,
the proposition which the Government made to the Bank was,
that they should receive Three per Cent. Reduced Annuities
at the price of 901. in lieu of this sum of 3,661,7001. The
amount of the Three per Cent. ReduCed Stock was
4,080,000/., and the bonus which the Bank received on this
sum amounted to 11 per cent. He believed that if he had
gone into the market for the purpose of borrowing the money,
he could not have got it upon terms equally good, and there-
fore he did not consider that he had made a bad bargain. The
reason why he selected the Three per Cent. Reduced Stock
instead of the Three per Cent. Consols was, that the interest
charged upon the public was less on the former than on the
latter stock. The Noble Lord concluded by moving " that a
sum of 4,080,0001. in Three per Cent. Reduced Annuities,
should be placed to the credit of the Governor and Company
of the Bank of England in payment of one-fourth of the debt
due from the public to the Bank ; and that the interest thereon
should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United
Kingdom."
_ _

Mr. GOULBURN said the House ought to be made
aware of the very improvident arrangement which had been
made by the Noble Lord, and of the effect which it was likely
to produce. He (Mr. Goulburn) could not understand the
anxiety of the Government to pay off one and a quarter of the
debt due to the Bank after the arrangement of last session.
The effect of that arrangement was undoubtedly to increase the
liabilities of the Bank, and yet the Noble Lord thought it ad-
visable to withdraw a part of the security which the public had
for the due fulfilment of their engagements. With regard to
the terms of the Noble Lord's bargain, the debt owing to the
Bank was 3,600,0001., at the annual interest of three per cent.
Now, the course which the Noble Lord had taken, was to in-
crease the existing burdens of the country, and to add to the
permanent debt of the country : the permanent addition would
be 400,000/. and the yearly addition would amount to 12,0001.
This was not for the purpose of paying off a creditor who
pressed for the discharge of his debt, or was dissatisfied with
the interest, but for some fantastical object which he could not
for the life of him, understand. In his opinion the Noble
Lord, if he had gone into the market for the purpose of bor-
rowing the money, on the lowest terms would certainly
have obtained it on more advantageous terms ; and as he had
the funds of the savings' banks in his hands, he might have
applied them in a way which would have been of more benefit
to them than that in which the Noble Lord had thought fit to
employ them. While Hon. Members were contending for a
paltry reduction of the Speaker's salary, or discussing whether
a Commissioner of Customs should have 100/. more or less,
they permitted the Chancellor of the Exchequer to add hun-
dreds of thousands to the permanent debt of the country, and
to increase the annual payments of interest. He did not think
that the House would do their duty, as administrator of the
public funds; if they allowed such unwise arrangements to be
made and passed over without notice.
Mr. WARBURTON was of opinion that the security which
the Bank give to the public was so ample that it was not a
matter of importance whether fourteen millions or only three-
fourths of that sum were withdrawn from their capital. ..He,
however, agreed that a most improvident bargain had been
made by the Noble Lord, as its effect would be that the public
would now have to pi), 3 per cent. on 111/., whereas the for-
mer amount was only 3 per cent. on every 100/.—( A laugh. )
That was the effect. The public, after paying 3 per cent. on
100/. would now pay the same interest as if they owed the
Bank 111/. If the Government had gone into the mar-
ket, the capitalists would have readily offered to pay the
difference between the 100/. and the 111/. The money rate
of the Three per Cent. Reduced Stock was 90/., and accord-
ing to the terms which the Noble Lord had agreed to, he had
disposed of the Three per Cents. at 91t ; so that the bargain
was doubly disadvantageous to the public. Instead of taking
the capital stock at 911 he had taken it at 90, and he then
sold again at 911. He perceived that the Bank on this occa-
sion, as on many others, had been too deep for the Government.
Lord ALTHORP said that it was true the public had to
pay three per cent. on 1111. instead of three per cent. on 100/.,
but there was not a loss on both sides. He stated in the out-
set that he had given a bonus of It per cent., but the public
had gained in one way by the bargain. With regard to the
arrangement of last year, which had been adverted to, he con-
sidered that when they owed a larger amount to the Bank
than was necessary, the Government would at any period for
renewing the charter, be more in the hands of the Bank than
they otherwise would be if the debt were less. He, therefore,
thought that when the funds 'were so high it was the duty of
the Goverment to take advantage of the opportunity to
reduce the debt; and so far from apprehending that the
security of the Bank would be diminished in the slightest
degree by the subtraction of one-fourth of the capital, he
should prefer to pay off a larger amount, if he was enabled to
make that bargain. It could not be denied that the public
lost a certain amount on the *annual payments ; but the ques-
tion was, whether the mode which he had adopted of paying
this sum to the Bank, had been disadvantageous to the coun-
try ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked why he had
not applied the funds of the savings' banks ? He admitted
that he might have done so ; but he thought, at the same time,
that he could make a better use of them, and that by being
prepared with a large sum he would be enabled to make a
better bargain in the reduction of the Four per Cents. The •
result had proved that he was in the right ; for if he had not
been prepared with a large sum to pay off the dissentients he
must have been placed in a situation of great difficulty. By
the reduction of the Four per Cents he had saved 50,000/. a-
year to the public ; while the loss by the payments to the
public amounted to only 12,000/. a-year. With regard to
what had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the
advantage of going to the market, he doubted whether by so
doing he could have obtained better terms. He made every
inquiry which it was in his power to do from the nature of the
case, and he found that 89 or 90 would have been the lowest
terms at which he could have raised the required sum; and un-
der such circumstances he deemed it better not to disturb the
money market.
Mr. WARBURTON said he had rather overstated the
matter ; but still he must maintain that if the conversion had
been made at the rate of 91i instead of 90, the public would
have had to pay three per cent. on 100/. ; whereas they would
now pay three per cent. on 1111. The public lost in two
points of view; for, in the first place, they would have to pay a
higher rate of interest ; and, secondly, instead of putting this
sum upon the terminable annuities, whereby they would pay
only 100/. for the redemption of the 100/. debt, they made an
arrangement by which they would have to pay 100/. instead of
90/. for the redemption.
Lord ALTHORP said the exact loss amounted to the sum
of 12,250/., and he believed that'on any other stock the loss
would have been greater. He certainly would have preferred
placing the amount upon the terminable instead of the inter-
minable annuities, but in that case he must have made an imme-
diate heavy charge upon the public, and disarranged the whole
finances of the country. They ought not to press too heavily
on the present generation for the purpose of relieving the fu-
ture generation.
ATT WO OD said that the public would have to pay
V. Os. 6d. per cent., whereas they had formerly only 3 per
cent. to pay. He thought that the sum paid off would enable
the Bank of England to play with the national finances. There
ought to be some controlling power over the Bank of England,
something similar to the Board of Control which was placed
over the East India Company.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON denied that there was any
nationalground for believing
finances.
That
the
Bsewat would
awould
sufficientplay Bw t ahr dt ho
ef
Control. _ _ _

After a few observations from Mr. GOULBURN and Mr.
WARBURTON, the resolution was agreed to, and the House
having resumed, the report was ordered to be read this day.

SALE OF BEER BILL.

On the question that the House go into Committee on the
Sale of Beer Bill,
Mr. WARBURTON observed that the Bill consulted nei-
ther the interests of the consumers, nor of those parties who
had invested their capital under the existing system ; and he
therefore trusted that the Noble Lord opposite, who had un-
dertaken the conduct of the measure, was prepared to make
some material alterations.

Lord ALT HORP said he had supported the Bill up to its

present stage, and it was not likely that he should now agree
to any alterations.
Mr. F. PALMER opposed the Bill.
Mr. THOMAS ATT WO OD said it would be impossible
to carry the bill into execution. They ought to take care that
in endeavouring to check the crime of drunkenness, they did
not unjustifiably curtail the enjoyments of the working classes.
—( Hear, hear.) Throwing open the beer trade was the only
good act of the Duke of Wellington's Administration, except,
perhaps, Catholic Emancipation, which was a very pretty
measure—( A laugh)—although he did not attach so much
importance to it as some people did. He did not think that
they had a right to dictate to Englishmen where they should
and where they should not drink their beer—( Hear, hear)—
and the passing of laws like this would either make the people
defy and despise the law, or reduce them to the veriest pol-
troons ever trampled uncial- the foot of tyranny.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) The people did not go to the beer houses
so much for the sake of the beer as for the sake of society,
and that interchange of ideas they could not meet with at home.
As to the working classes being encouraged to take the beer
home to drink, he discouraged it; for if they had English
hearts in their bosoms, they would share it with their wives
and children, for whom tea and milk were strong enough.
There were none of these restraints upon the drinking of beer
on the meeting of the working classes in the olden time ; but if
they got intoxicated there was the wholesome, beneficient, but
efficient punishment of the stocks.
Mr. MARK PHILLIPS thought that the destruction of
capital which it had been supposed would result from this
measure, had been exaggerated. Besides, much of what had
been embarked in these beer shops had been embarked with-
out proper care ; and their increase in one year, from 40 to
73 in one township with which he was intimately acquainted
(not more than four miles square), had tended to increase the
poor-rate.
Mr. POTTER bore testimony to the great good which the
Beer Bill had done in Manchester. Great abuses had pre-
vailed in the licensing system of Lancashire, which it had
materially checked.

Colonel WILLIAMS thought the amount of capital in-
vested in these beer shops no argument against their regula-
tion. Great capitals had been invested in the gin shops ; but
he hoped that would not be urged as a reason against legislat-
ing for them.

-Major BEA UCL ERK said that the people would not long
bear with a system of legislation which continually abridged
all their enjoyments. The pretence for it in this case was, the
increase of drunkenness ; but it had been proved before the
Committee which had lately been sitting upon that subject,
that it had not increased.
After a few words from Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET and
Mr. WILKS, the House went into a Committee.

Lord ALT HOR P moved a proviso to the second clause, to
the effect, that in parishes, townships, and places, which had
not ten inhabitants rated to the poor at 61., the signatures of
the majority of those who were rated at 61., to a certificate,
should be suffic.ien't for the purposes of this Act.
Mr. WARBURTON admitted that this would be an im-
provement upon the Bill as it originally stood ; but there were
many parishes in which there were only two or three inhabit-
ants rated at 6/. ; and one or two heard of in Dorsetshire,
with five hundred inhabitants, with only one rated at 61. In
such cases, the probability was, the certificate would never be
obtained. .

Mr. P. HOWARD wished to know whether the Noble
Lord intended to make the certificate annual ?
Mr. M. PHILLIPS suggested that in the cases now under
consideration, it should be a sufficient qualification for the party
wishing to establish a beer-house to be a rate-payer.
' -

Lord ALTHORP begged to remind Hon. Members that
notice had been given of a clause, making it necessary that
there Mould be a certificate for the keepers of houses in towns
with more than five thousand inhabitants. Now, with reference
to that, he intended presently to propose that in the metro-
polis, and all places sending Members to Parliament, no cer-
tificate should be required. Notwithstanding the severe pe-
nalties of the Act at present in force, the drunkenness and
immoralities which the beer-shops had given rise to in rural
districts, had obliged him reluctantly to come to the conclusion
that they must endeavour to stop them, by their requiring a
previous certificate of character in a party seeking to establish
a beer house.

Mr. AGLIONBY begged to suggest to the Noble Lord,
that the better way of meeting such cases as had been men-
tioned by the Hon. Member for Bridport, was to allow parties
to obtain signatures to their certificates from the adjoining
parish.

Lord ALTHORP thought the case of a parish in which
there was only one inhabitant rated at 61., with a population of
500 souls, and that one would refuse his signature to a proper
person seeking to sell beer to be consumed on the premises
(for it would not be required-for any thing else), was of so
extreme a nature as not to require being guarded against.
Mr. WARBURTON did not rely upon that one case in
Dorsetshire ; and with a view to meet the cases of all small
parishes, he begged to move as a proviso, instead of that of
the Noble Lord, that in towns containing a smaller number
than twenty inhabitants rated at 61., persons granting a certi-
ficate might be taken from any two neighbouring parishes.
Major BEAUCLERK was convinced that in hundreds of
small parishes the license would not be obtained unless the
amendment suggested by the Hon. Member for Bridport were
adopted.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE adverted to a petition on the table,
in which it was stated that in the parish of Ashbourne, in
Dorsetshire, in which there were nine hundred inhabitants,
there were only twenty rated at 61., and of those fourteen
were disqualified as being brewers or maltsters, so that the
chance of obtaining a license would be very trifling.
In answer to a question from Mr. P. HOWARD,
Lord ALTHORP stated that it was intended the certifi-
cates should be annual.

On the clause being put,
Mr. WARBURTON moved as aimendment, to substi-
tute the words " one-third" for the words " a majority."
The Committee divided,
For the Amendment
Against it
Majority

. -47

On our return to the gallery, we found the Committee dis-
cussing an amendment proposed by Sir Harry Verney, the na-
ture of which we were unable to collect. Eventually the Hon.
Baronet postponed it until the Report.
The proviso was then added to the clause.
On the motion that the clause, as amended, stand part of
the Bill,

Mr. WALTER moved as an amendment, to add the words,
" Provided always, that_nothing herein contained shall extend,
or be construed to extend, to prevent any license from being
granted to any person or persons already licensed according to
the provisions of the said recited act, by reason of such person
or persons not being able to obtain a certificate hereinbefore
required ; or to any person or persons by whom a brewery shall
have been erected for the purpose of supplying the beer to be
sold under such license."

After a brief discussion, in which Lord Althorp, Mr. Walter,
Mr. Wilks, Lord Robert Grosvenor, Major Beauclerk, Mr.
Shiel, Mr. Fyshe Palmer, and Colonel Williams participated,
the Committee divided.

For the amendment 23
Against it 5B
Majority
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
On the fourth clause, for regulating the time at which beer
houses should close.
Lord ALTHORP observed that he was desirous that beer
houses should remain open as long as the public-houses.—
( Hear, hear.) But that it was difficult to find words in which
to embody that provision, there being no specific time of
closing in the vintners' licences. Unless, therefore, the
clause was struck out altogether, he was afraid that it would
be impracticable to obtain that object. In is opinion it would
be very injurious, as compelling the beer-houses to close at an
earlier hour than the public-houses, might induce people who,
having drunk beer at the former, were not properly sober, to go
and finish themselves with gin.—(A laugh. )
Mr. BAINES suggested that instead often, if the hour of
eleven, were substituted, the object might be in a great measure
obtained.

Mr. WARBURTON thought that the clause might be
framed, directing that beer-houses should be opened and shut
at the same hours as those at which the Magistrates of the dis-
trict directed the public-houses to be opened and shut.
Mr. GREENE observed, that in many parts of the country
no particular time was prescribed, provided no irregularities
took place in the houses in question.
After some discussion, the clause was agreed to.
Clauses 5 and 6 were agreed to.
On the 7th clause, relating to the Magisterial jurisdiction,
being read, it was proposed to strike out the words " two Jus-
tices of the Peace," and insert the words, " One or more
Justices of the Peace."
Mr. WARBURTON and Mr. MARK PHILIPS StrOrigly protested
against any such power being vested in one Magistrate.
Mr. AGLIO NB Y suggested that the proper way would be
to insert the words " Two or more Justices of the Peace, in
Petty Sessions assembled."
Lord ALTHORP said, perhaps the best course would be
to leave the clause as it originally stood, which was, we believe,
agreed to.
The Bth clause was withdrawn. _

On the 9th clause (the appeal clause) being proposed.
Mr. AGLIONBY said, he had no idea that the House
would have proceeded so far with the bill that evening, or he
should have been ready with a clause which it was his intention
to have proposed, enacting that, henceforth, all appeals of this
nature should be tried by a jury, and not by the bench. A
feeling prevailed very commonly in the country, that an appeal
was but a reference from one set of magistrates to another, all
of them actuated by the same motives and feelings.
Lord ALTHORP looked upon an appeal in open court as
sure a protection to justice as trial by jury ; at all events, in
cases such as occurred under the present bill. The magis-
trates who tried appeal causes came from distant and various
parts of the county unfettered by previous pledges, and devoid
of any local prejudices.
The clause was agreed to.
The 10th and last clause, enacting that the bill shall come
into force on the 10th of October was agreed to.
Lord ALTHORP brought up a clause, providing that
nothing in the Bill should extend to the cities of London and
Westminster, or to any parish within the Bills of Mortality--
or any towns returning Members to Parliament, the population
of which should exceed 4000.
Mr. FYSHE PALMER strongly deprecated the clause as
unfair and partial.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none took
place, and the elapse was agreed to.
Several other clauses were brought up and agreed to.
Mr. WILKS proposed a clause exempting persons licensed

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under the existing Act from the operation of the Bill, wh is
was negatived after a brief discussion.
The House then resumed, the report was brought up, and
ordered to be received on Tuesday next.
CUSTOM DUTIES BILL.
The House went into Committee on this Bill, on the 17th
clause.
Mr. WARBURTON observed, that promoting the export
of coal would exhaust the coal at the surface, and nearest the
sea ; so that the cost of conveyance would be increased to the
home consumer.
Lord ALTHORP said he did not think there was the slight-
est danger of such exhaustion as the Hon. Member seemed to
anticipate.
Mr. BAINES supported the clause.
Mr. F. YOUNG also supported the clause.
Mr. P. THOMSON, in reply to Lord Lowther, stated
that there was no difference between the duties imposed in
France on Belgian and English coals when they arrived by
sea. There was only a difference in favour of Belgium when
the coals were conveyed by land.
Colonel TO RRENS opposed the clause. He was of opi-
nion that the export of coals would render them cheaper in
foreign countries than at home.
Mr. HUTT supported the clause.
The clause was then agreed to.
On arriving at the 21st clause,
Mr. P. THOMSON proposed the withdrawal of the :
22d, and 23d clauses, which relate to the establishment:
bonded warehouses in inland towns. The Government tt I
come to this determination in consequence of the advanced
period of the Session, and the extended discussion which the
opposition to the three clauses would produce.
The clauses were then withdrawn.
The remaining clauses were agreed to.
Mr. P. THOMSON brought up a clause exempting slates
froni export duty.
The clause was agreed to.
The report was then ordered to be brought up to-morrow.
The Land Tax Amendment Bill was read a third time, and
passed.
The Royal Burgh (Scotland) Bill was read a third time,
and passed.
The Fever Hospital Bill was read a third time, and passed.
Mr. F. BARING moved the second reading of the Pen-
sions, Civil Offices, and Aprentices Bill.
Mr. HAWES opposed the motion, on which the House
divided, when there appeared—

For the second reading 55
Against it 5
Majority for the second reading --50
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Tuesday.

The South Australian Colonization Bill was ordered to be
re-committed to-morrow (this day.)
The House then adjourned at three o'clock, till to-morrow
(this day), at twelve o'clock.

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