The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-13 00:00:00

COURT OF COMMON PLEAS, MAY 12.

(Before the CHIEF JUSTICE and a Common Jury.)
COLE V. BEESON.
This was an action for false imprisonment.
The defendant is a butcher, residing in William-
street, Lisson-grove, and on the 12th of October last,
on a Saturday evening, there happened to be some
" marrow-bones and cleavers" exhibiting their usual
antics, which exhibition collected a crowd of persons.
The plaintiff, actuated by a similar curiosity as others,
mixed with the crowd. On having observed the de-
fendant, who immediately called out to his brother to
come out and knock down plaintiff and kill him, which
t!..2 Lrother most faithfully performed, as far as the
knocking-down went, plaintiff received two black eyes,
was greatly beaten, and given in custody to a constable
and conveyed to the station-house, where he was de-
tained until he procured bail. On the subsequent
Monday he appeared before the magistrate, when he
was discharged. The defendant not appearing against
him, he now brought his action for false imprisonment.
Verdict for the plaintiff—Damages, 5/.

KENSINGTON PETTY SESSIONS, MAY 12.

Thomas Organ, butler to Lord Teynham, was
brought before F. BARLOW and H. Conn, Esqs.,
charged with stealing twelve dozen of choice old port,
the property of Captain Carnegie.
It appeared from the evidence of Lord Teynham
and his son, the Hon. Sidney Curzon, that his Lord-
ship has for some time resided at Carnegie House,
Wright's-lane, Kensington, the late residence of Cap-
tain Carnegie, who on his quitting the house left in a
private cellar, which was locked, a large quantity of
choice old wines. On Friday last it was accidentally
discovered that the cellar had been broken open, and
on investigation it was found that about twelve dozen
of curious old port, estimated to be worth 601., had
been stolen. On its being communicated to his Lord-
ship, he immediately sent information to the station-
house of the T division, when William Cowie, a con-
stable, was sent to the house, and in the course of his
inquiries ascertained that the prisoner Organ, who
had been but two months in his Lordship's service,
had during that period been in a state of almost con-
tinued intoxication. On questioning the gardener, he
acknowledged that the prisoner had given him some
wine to drink, which, on examination, proved to be
part of the stolen property.
The case having been clearly proved against him,
he was fully committed to take his trial at the next
Old Bailey Sessions.

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.

LAMBETH-STREET.

Yesterday, Mr. Gee, a most respectable solicitor,
residing at Bishop Stortford, applied to Mr. WALKER,
for his advice and assistance under the following most
extraordinary circumstances : .
.. . .

Mr. Gee was engaged professionally by the execu-
tors of a widow lady named Canning, to invest about
2,000/. which had been left her by her late husband
in profitable and available security ; and of this sum
1,200/. had been invested, and the remaining 800/.
was at his disposal. Some days since he received a
letter by post, signed, " W. Heath," in which the
writer expressed a wish to be informed when he (Mr.
Gee) would be in town, as he wished to consult him
professionally and personally on the subject of some
property which was to be disposed of in the neigh-
bourhood of Bishop Stortford. He (Mr. G.) wrote
in reply that he would be in town on that day (yester-
day) at ten o'clock, and that if the writer of the letter
would be in the coffee-room of the Bull Inn, Aldgate,
at that hour, he would give him the desired interview.
On arriving at the Bull Inn, he found a young man,
who had the appearance of a steward of a ship, who,
after inquiring from him if his name was. Gee, and
being answered in the affirmative, handed him a letter
of which the following is a coy
"p London, May 12, 1834.

" Sir,—ln consequence of serious indisposition since
Friday last I find it quite impossible to wait upon you
according to your appointment, but trust you will have
no objection to coming to me, the distance being little more
than a mile down the Commercial-road. Being now quite
ready for you, your attendance, Sir, will much oblige, yours
respectfully, " W. HEATH.
" P. S. I send a coach by the bearer to convey you there
and back again."
On his reading the letter, the person who had
brought it said that he had a coach in waiting, and he
(Mr. Gee) not suspecting for a moment that anything
wrong or improper was intended, got into it, and was
driven to the house, No. 27, York-street West, Com-
mercial-road. On getting out of the vehicle, and en-
tering the house, he was met in the passage by a man
who, addressing him, said that his brother was then at
breakfast in the kitchen, and hoped he (Mr. Gee)
would have no objection to go there to him, as he
wished particularly to see and speak with him. By
this time the door was closed, and the coach, he had no
doubt, discharged ; and as he was about to descend the
stairs leading to the kitchen he was laid hold of by the
person who delivered him the letter at the Bull Inn,
the man who had asked him to go to the kitchen, and
a third person, all of whom assisted in dragging him
down into a back kitchen, and from thence into a kind
of privy or den, where they placed him sitting on the
seat, and not only chained him from behind, but fas-
tened his feet tightly to the flooring by means of very
strong cords, so that he could scarcely move his per-
son, hands, or feet. Having accomplished this, one of
the party represented himself as the brother of his
client, Mrs. Canning, and told him that he should not
be released from his then situation until he gave a
check on his banker for the payment of • the 8001. of
her money which he had in his hands, and an order for
the delivery of the deeds of the property in which the
1,200/. had been previously vested. In vain did he
remonstrate with them on the illegality and impro-
priety of their proceeding, and entreat them to release
him. The parties remarked that they were perfectly
aware that they were not acting in accordance with
the law, but that was their law, and released he should
not be, not only until he had given the check and
order they required, but until the cash was got for the
one and the deeds for the other. They were then
about to leave and lock him up in this dark and hor-
rible den, when he, on reflection, and being really ap-
prehensive that if he either called out for assistance or
refused their demands they would murder him, com-
plied with their request ; and a pen, ink, and paper
being brought to him, he wrote a check on his bankers,
the Messrs. Gibson, of Saffron Walden, for 800/. ;
and a letter to Mr. Bell, a gentleman residing near
Stortford, who is one of the executors of the late Mr.
Canning, for the delivery of the deeds. After he had
done this one of the parties instantly left the house,
for the purpose, no doubt, of either getting the check
cashed at the agents of the banking house in town, or
proceeding with it and the letter to the country.
Mr. WALKER asked if the cash had been obtained ?
Mr. Gee had been to the agent of the bank, and had
ascertained that it had not been presented there, and
left directions that should it be to stop the parties pre-
senting it. He considered it impossible that the check
could reach the bank at Saffron Walden on that day
before it closed, and before it opened on the following
(this) day he would take care to have its payment
stopped. Mr. Gee went on to state that after he had
written and signed the document alluded to he felt
exceedingly faint, and requested that one of the parties
would get him a bottle of soda water. This, however,
they refused doing, but held a pot with some beer in
it to his lips, and he drank a little. They then left
him, and after being in the situation above described
for nearly three hours he, by a powerful exertion and a
violent compression of his body, fortunately managed
to shift the iron chain which passed across his chest
and bound tight his arms a little upwards, and ulti-
mately to work his head and body out of it. He then
was enabled to untie the cords which bound his feet
to the flooring, and being thus free he rushed out of
the back door, and after clambering over several garden
walls succeeded in reaching the public street.
Mr. WALKER observed that he never heard of a
more extraordinary case, and gave directions to Miller,
the officer, to use immediate exertion to apprehend
the parties.

THAMES POLICE.
Yesterday Mary Griffiths, an elderly woman of
very plausible manners, who has been long known to
the Thames Police under the somewhat odd cognomen
of " Ducks and Green Peas," and whose system of
fraud has greatly exceeded that of the register office-
keeper Wright, who was lately convicted, was brought
before Mr. COOMBE for re-examination, charged with
obtaining various small sums of money from seamen
4n4 others under false pretence of procuring situations
for them on board ship.
On the first examination of the prisoner, upwards
of one hundred persons attended, to prefer charges
against her, and ten were entered into by the magistrate,
from which it appeared that she kept an office in the
Back-road, Shadwell, in partnership with a man named
Clark, who, however, except in one case, in which he
received five shillings from a lad, under pretence of
shipping him on the woman's account, was never seen

in the transaction. It was the general custom of the
prisoner to accost persons in the street, and ask them '
if they wanted a ship. If they answered in the affir-
mative, she told them she had to ship hands for seve-
ral vessels, and wanted able seamen, carpenters,
stewards, cuddy servants, and waiting women for pas-
sengers, and took them to her office, where she de-
manded five, ten, and sometimes fifteen shillings as
her fee, and promised to get her dupes a ship directly;
but, after obtaining their money, put them off from
time to time with excuses ; and if the name of the ship
was demanded, her invariable reply was, " Oh, I never
do business in that way. If I was to tell you the name
of the ship you would ship yourselves, and cheat me
of the shipping money.". Yesterday several additional
cases were entered into, and many statements were
made of the flagrant manner in which she had cheated
a number of poor individuals, of both sexes, of their
money.
Mr. COOMBE committed the prisoner on five of the
cases.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 12.

The house sat at four o'clock, and from that time
till twenty minutes after five was engaged in the exa-
mination of witnesses in favour of the Warwick Dis-
franchisement Bill.

Several private bills were brought up from the
Commons by Mr. CLIVE, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, and
others.

The LORD CHANCELLOR then rose with an
immense petition in his hands, and said he had the
honour to present a petition from a most nume-
rous body of his fellow-subjects. The petition
proceeded from a meeting which was assem-
bled in one of the churches or chapels of the
city of Glasgow. It was a public meeting which was
called, in consequence of a requisition signed by up-
wards of two hundred of the most respectable
inhabitants of that city. It was held upon the 26th of
March, and the petition, which was signed by 48,600
persons, was unanimously adopted. ( Hear, hear.)
When it was recollected that a similar petition
was presented last session or the session be-
fore from the same city, that had not more
than one-third of the signatures that this had, it
could not, by any one, be said that the feeling
on the question had fallen off, or even remained
stationary. He was very sensible of the very
distinguished honour which had been conferred upon
him by the unanimous approbation of so large a body of
his fellow countrymen, as shown in their intrusting him
with the presentation of their petition; because it was
upon a question which they felt to be of vast impor-
tance, and which they had shown lay nearest their
hearts. As the question was of such a nature, it
would have given him great satisfaction if
there had prevailed between the petitioners and
him such an unity of feeling as would have enabled him
to give that support to the petition which he wished to
give to any one he was intrusted with. With a great
deal, however, of the prayer of the petition, he might
say in the most important portion of it, he entirely
agreed ; he alluded to that part of it which
prayed the house to take the claims of the dis-
senters—not of Scotland only, but of the United
Kingdom generally—into their early and serious
cdhsideration, and to redress the grievances
of which they complained. He need not remind
their lordships or the petitioneri that there was
no individual either in or out of parliament
who had expressed a more uniform,' consistent, and
zealous friendliness to the principles of religious to-
leration, nor any one who had ever exceeded
him in advocating them to the very utmost of
their extent. He had felt, and did feel, that
no one ought to be -injured in his possessions, or the
enjoyment of his civil rights, by the circumstance of
his differing with other men, or even with the state, in his
religious views. These viewsle had always supported,and
now he would not depart from them, and he fain hoped
they were principles which were fast spreading, and
would soon lead to the perfecting of religious liberty.
But holding that opinion—imbued as he was with, and
acting on these principles—he went along with the
petitioners in the first and important part of their prayer.
With the residue of that prayer he had felt it his duty
to state to the deputation that had waited on him what
he had never disguised from their lordships, and
what he could not coincide in, that their lordships
would take measures in order to the dissolution of what
they called " the unjust, unscriptural and injurious con-
nection between church and state." That was a new
expression, which had crept in between political
and religious controversy ; but he took it to
mean, although it certainly could not be called
a very happy expression—that it was intended to mean
a dissolution—not of the connexion between church
and state, but that there should not longer be any
religious establishment at all, and that the principle of
a voluntary church should be substituted ; that the
state should not provide in any way, or by any means,
for the religious instruction of the people, but that
all sects, all individuals, whether ignorant or instructed,
whether ill-informed or well-informed, should be
left to provide for themselves the means of seligious
instruction. To that extent he (the Lord Chancellor)
did not accompany the prayer of the petitioners. He
had expressed to the deputation his entire, and per-
haps altogether incurable, difference of opinion with
that part of the prayer of the petition. ( Hear.
hear, hear.) He looked with alarm and dismay
at such a state of things as the dissolution of
all hierarchies in England, Scotland, and Ireland
(for the prayer of the petition extended to Scotland,
in which there was an economical church), for such
a state of things would leave seventeen or eighteen,
or perhaps twenty millions of his fellow subjects with-
out being provided with the means of religious in-
struction. It might be asked why did he look with
alarm and dismay at that state of things ? It was for
this reason, and which he did not conceal from the
deputation who intrusted the petition to him, that
there were some things, such as hunger, thirst, &c.,
which the animal constitution of our nature would
compel us to make proper provision for, by obtaining
the means of effecting that object, but it was not so
where the wants of the refined part of our constitution
was concerned, for the more ignorant the people
were, and the less they knew the use of
learning, the less they would bestir themselves
to obtain the means of religious instruction.
That was the first argument on which he founded his
belief on the subject, and he claimed for himself the
same freedom of opinion he granted to them, and such
was the alarm he felt for many millions of people, who
wanted instruction, being left without it. His next ar-
gument was the necessity there existed for the esta-
blishment of a church of one body of clerical men,
set apart to instruct the people in their moral
and religious duties. Such an establishment had
always been found to have excluded the very great
injury of an unbridled license to fanaticism among the
people. Such were the arguments on which his opi-
nions were fixedly formed, and he should not be per-
suaded
to depart from those opinions until some better
system was discovered. What improvements the
present church establishment might undergo was not
now the question ; that was not a question raised
by the petition, which called upon the house
to abolish all religious establishments. It was
stated in the petition that religious establish-
ments were unsanctioned by our Saviour and his
Apostles, and opposed to their writings and injunc-
tions. He (the Lord Chancellor) saw no ground
whatever in Holy Writ to found such a statement.
It was said, if you would look back to the
primitive times, you would find no such a thing in
existence as a church establishment ; that was so,
but that formed no ground for drawing the con-
clusion the petitioners had done. As to the
second statement of the petitioners that an establish-
ment was prohibited by Scriptural injunction, if it
were so, the arguments he had urged in its favour
were at an end: The Lord Chancellor was ex-
tremely glad that it was only to this extent that he
disagreed with the petitioners, they stated a number of
other points upon which he had always thought, and
still thought, that the Dissenters were greatly
aggrieved, and that they had a just right to com-
plain ; and he could assure them that they should
never want, whether they were in Scotland, Ireland,
or England, his feeble assistance in freeing them from
those matters of which they had so much right to com-
plain. He was, however, most solicitous to urge
upon the consideration of the dissenters, if they valued
their redemption from those grievances, if they valued
the cordial support of their best friends, both in Parlia-
ment and out of it ; if they valued their own character
for goed sense, sound reason, and consistency, and if
they would have it appear triumphantly for them as
against their enemies, that they would net lose a mo-
ment to redeem themselves from anything like din
foundation for the charge, which was very apt to be
brought against them. What he meant was this—Let
them look to the actual grievance under which they
laboured, let them steadily and candidly look to the
means of removing that grievance, and when they found
measures in contemplation, the tendency of which was,

as was admitted by themselves to be the intention,
directly and altogether to remove those grievances,
let them accept of that redress, and not trouble
themselves upon mere speculating, trifling, and un-
important matters. (Hear, hear.) Upon one sub-
ject he thought they had great reason to complain—
the necessity of being married according to the ritual
of a church from whose forms and doctrines they dis-
sented. He held that to be a grievance upon the dis-
senters, and also upon the established church. ( Hear,
hear.) It was an indecent thing to see the brawls
that must always take place in churches, at the foot
, of the altar, when a dissenter entered, as he was bound
! to do, his protest against the Gospel portion of the
matrimonial ceremony. That was a great grievance,
and he was happy to say that it was at length pro-
posed to redress it. Henceforth it was proposed that
dissenters might be married in their own chapels ; but
because the -Marriage Act required that the bans
should be published in a church, not so much because
it was a church as because it was a place of great
publicity, he was surprised to find that a very respect-
able portion, although not a majority, of the dissenters
were disposed to reject the boon. He thought the
church had a right to object to this demand of the
dissenters. The legislature also, which sought to
make a provision against youthful imprudence, cases
of designing fraud, and violence, in favour of the
natural guardians of youth, had also a right to com-
plain. He hoped the good sense and propriety of
abandoning this ground of objection would be seen in
the proper quarter. Upon the point of registration
he would say one word. In a country like this it was
surprising so imperfect a registration of births, deaths,
and marriages should exist. A noble friend of his
upon the cross benches would well recollect a case
wherein a considerable property was on the point of
going to the wrong party because of a deficient re-
gistration of birth. The defect of registry was not a
grievance of which the dissenters alone had a right to
complain, for that defect was one which was as much
felt by churchmen as it was by dissenters. He had,
however, the satisfaction of knowing that an hon.
relative of his had devised a remedy for this evil. The
measure to which he alluded stood for discussion he be-
lieved that very night in another place, and if it were
adopted he was as convinced in his own mind, as ever
he was of anything in the whole course of his life,
that it would produce a complete, an efficient remedy
to this particular grievance. He stated these circum-
stances to show how far he agreed with the sentiments
of the petitioners. Indeed he might say that, with
the exception he had mentioned, he went to the full
extent of their prayer; but, differing from them as he
did in some particulars, he should not have discharged
his duty faithfully if he had not added his protest
against as much of their demand as he considered un-
reasonable, and shortly stated the grounds upon which
the opinions he entertained were founded.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said, if the
petition presented by the noble lord had confined it-
self to desiring the removal of the grievances or dis-
abilities under which the dissenters laboured—if it had
merely required at their lordships' hands toleration to
the full extent to which liberty of conscience could be
granted, he should have most heartily concurred in
its prayer, because it was his earnest wish to see every
disability under which any class of his Majesty's sub-
jects unjustly laboured removed as speedily as possible.
( Hear, hear.) He could assure their lordships that
he was as solicitous as any member of that house—as
any man in the country,-to redress the grievances of
the dissenters, as far as that redress was consistent
with the duty which he owed to the church to which
he belonged ; but, although he made this statement,
he was at the same time bound to declare, that
if the demands of the dissenters were at all di-
rected against the stability of the establishment,
it would be a duty imperative on him to give
them every opposition in his power. ( Hear,
hear, hear.) Had the petition gone no far-
ther than to claim for the dissenters reasonable ad-
vantages, comforts, privileges, and dignities—had it
merely asked that they might be secured in the enjoy-
ment of property—in a word, had they demanded to
be put in full possession of all those civil rights to
which they were legally and constitutionally entitled,
he should not have offered a syllable in opposition to
its prayer ; but when this was not the case—when,
instead of seeking that for which they had a right to
look, the petitioners avowed principles which he could
not recognise, which were subversive of the established
church—he felt that he should be wanting in his duty
if he allowed the subject to pass over in silence.
( Hear, hear.) He entirely concurred in the greater
part of the sentiments so ably and eloquently expressed
by the noble and learned lord who had just sat down,
and could not hear such demands as this petition
pressed for made in that house without standing up in
his place to protest against their going any such length
as these petitioners would have them go. But really
the proposition was altogether so wild, so absurd, and,
he would add, so unreasonably extravagant, that he
could hardly suppose it to have emanated from persons
of the known intelligence and respectability of those
whose names were affixed to this petition. Surely, in
making such a proposition, they could not have kept
in view the great object which an established church
was designed to accomplish, namely, the dissemination
of a pure and holy religion, not only in the lanes and
alleys of populous towns throughout obscure villages,
but, he might say, over the whole surface of the em-
pire. (Hear, hear.) The light of true religion
could not possibly be extended to remote and insigni-
ficant places without the aid of an established church,
and it was therefore on the grounds of its vast useful-
ness that it was to be defended. The noble and
learned lord had most justly, and with that ability for
which he was distinguished, explained the particular
wants which it was intended to supply ; and to those
who thought with him a religious institution a blessing
the advantages of an established church must be suf-
ficiently obvious to dispense with the necessity of his
taking up the time of their lordships by then pointing
them out at any length. When he spoke of a reli-
gious establishment of any kind he merely looked at
it as a means for carrying into effect the designs of the
Almighty in revealing the Holy Gospels for the benefit
of mankind. The Gospels were revealed for the
benefit of the poor as much as for the advantage of the
rich ; and if no established church existed he should
like to know how the light of divine truth could reach
the habitations of the poor? It was no doubt true
that, even though no established church existed, indi-
vidual piety, in a rich country like this, would find
means for diffusing religious instruction to a certain
extent. In the wealthier part of great towns churches
might be found as convenient and as well adapted for
the purposes of divine worship as at present ; but,
although this would do very well so far as the rich
were concerned, the poor, who were scattered over
the whole face of the country, must be totally neglected
if religious instruction were not provided for them by
the state. ( Hear, hear.) Without an established
church the poor would be left in gross ignorance of
the beauty as well as of the moral precepts of religion.
They would be strangers to the hopes of the blessed
hereafter which it held out ; or else, instead of being
taught a sound religion and a pure faith, they would be
left at the mercy of ignorant and illiterate fanatics, by
whom they might be led into gross and absurd be-
liefs, which, in his opinion, would be just as bad as the
absence of all religion. But there were also other
points of view in which a religious establishment was
important. It might be considered as holding out
the light of pure Christianity—as preserving
that true religion which had been really revealed
from Heaven. Every man must be aware that a con-
taminated religion was worse than no religion at all ;
and, as the object of the church was to preserve chris-
tianity pure and undefiled, it was in that point of view
most important, not only to the unfortunate people
who now existed—the present generation—but to all
future ages. Had no church, he would not say esta-
blishment, existed from the earliest times, how could
the doctrines of christianity be discriminated at the
present day from the beliefs of the numerous sects with
which the world abounded, and all of whom asserted
that the notions which each entertained constituted
the only true religion of Christ ? Amidstmukl
sc:bi
olprwenes
isdetefrunvneehepeeelereulsyti hfeamneneatti
salutary,r
vtsavheneo otherwisebontat saidti
olnou
rttdbo ehglettaee ebhhottrsi
nooeeae_rsf
confusion and discord was it not evident that without
purerhrrahcos
consideration
ledeolabbn aavims
vtidereaeei
tcadnwhrebshteel:eaa:gsaterhyegt
rbnboeanueal
rue
fbeti
odbotdil.
nh:niybasse:fatnthtotfatshtdhmr
mhihienehieteectle.eyanedwiohttad,drisharol
Corruptions
petitioni
ndetovunnoheliupub endeotst
leeoui
doheo requisitei
tfgfnenteen arnsrto routyhcouhtmw clergyment
orlehewaduai
ssa
rgnluhemtdthffi
htogicehttewanuhsaarvheomonneetnauswhtxevalhbciahnotebdsoeedaftotl
a religious establishment, or they never would have
advocated the proposition now put forward for destroy-
ing it. The dissenters declared that they were the
friends of religion, and, if this were so, they should
examine well the voluntary system upon which their
churches were supported before they recommended that
system for general adoption. Did they not, he would
ask, complain of the inefficiency of the wretched provi-

sion, derived from voluntary contributions' made for
their ministers, or had they never expressed sorrow for
the want of a sufficient number of places of worship to
accommodate their congregations? He was misin-
formed or else they had • and had he not, therefore, a
right to say that if the Whole country were put under
the voluntary system, so much extolled by those who
were unfriendly to the church, the result would be that
the wants complained of by the dissenters themselves
would be multiplied in exact proportion to the number
of protestants as compared with the number of dissen-
ters ? The evil would be increased to an incredible
extent, but it was not then necessary for him to enter
further upon the advantages of a national church. He
could not help expressing his deep concern and regret
at the course which the dissenters had taken, neither
was he able to conjecture the cause which had so re-
cently produced such an alteration in their sentiments
on this subject. Their objection to the church esta-
blishment was perfectly new. ( Hear, hear.) He
believed that no such notion had ever existed in this
country prior to the time of the French revolution,
and he knew that before that period many respectable
dissenters had advocated the necessity of a church esta-
blishment. Topics of a different kind they had un-
doubtedly discussed with great warmth, but until now
they had not even thought of bringing forward a
scheme so wild and extravagant as the abolition of the
established church. He must confess he was wholly
at a loss to know to what this change of sentiment was
to be attributed. The noble and learned lord was
quite right as to there being no text of Scripture which
went to show the inexpediency of an established reli-
gion. It had been stated at the dissenters' meetings
that the church establishment did more harm than
good. The parties who made this injurious as-
sertion—and among them were names he re-
gretted to see in such a position—declared
that they represented the great body of the dissen-
ters of this country ; but, although that might be the
case, he still believed there were many belonging to
these benevolent and distinguished communities who
did not participate in any such principles or feelings,
but who, on the contrary. were strongly convinced of
the benefits derived by the community at large from
the church establishment. ( Hear, hear, hear.) The
silence which such persons had hitherto observed had
been construed into a sanction of the violent language
used at the meetings to which he alluded, and there-
fore he hoped they would take an early opportunity of
coming forward to avow what their real sentiments
were, and whether they regarded the Church of Eng-
land as a grievance from which they desired to be de-
livered. The feelings which churchmen once enter-
tained for dissenters were completely worn out ; and
he could now deny without the least hesitation that
any--even the least—feeling of hostility existed in the
mind of churchmen against dissenters. It was there-
fore unfair that the latter should exhibit such hostility
against the former. But was that, he would ask, the
way to preserve peace, or was it not rather the way to
revive gone-by animosities, which ought not to be re-
called into existence? As for himself, he solemnly de-
clared that he did not entertain the slightest feeling of
either animosity or disrespect towards the dissenters ;
and he might make a similar statement on behalf not
only of the clergy with whom he had communicated,
but of the clergy generally. Whenever the assault that
was made upon the church became the topic of con-
versation amongst those of the clergy with whom he
had spoken, no expression escaped them that was in-
consistent with Christian charity, or that manifested the
least animosity towards the dissenters. ( Hear.) On the
contrary, they one and all agreed that all the conces-
sions that could be made with safety should be granted,
and this, he could assure their lordships, was the
common language in which every address on the sub-
ject that he had received was couched. But it had
been said that the clergy felt the danger which sur-
rounded them, and were, therefore, afraid to speak
their sentiments freely one to another. That, how-
ever, their lordships would readily believe, was not the
case ; but, even supposing for the argument sake, that
they were in danger, could it for a moment receive
credence that they were so wanting in spirit as to fail
in self-defence ? That defence they were prepared to
make, should the necessity arise ; but then it should
always be carried on in a Christian spirit. But before
the Dissenters had assumed their present threatening
attitude, he would ask, what had been the conduct of
churchmen towards them and their claims ? They
had opposed the Catholic Emancipation Bill, not from
any wish to deprive the Catholics of any advantage to
which they were entitled, but because they conceived
the measure to be injurious, not only to the Irish
church, but to the church of England. The records
of the speeches delivered in that house would show the
grounds upon which they resisted the repeal of the
Test and Corporation Acts, by which Dissenters re-
ceived such considerable relief. They opposed that
measure, not on account or with reference to the
church, but because they found it impossible to re-
concile it with the general policy of the country.
Without occupying the time of their lordships longer,
he begged, in conclusion, to say, that whatever steps
might be taken against the church, whatever irritating
language might be used or aspersions cast upon the
clergy ; and whatever means might be resorted to for
the purpose of destroying or overturning the church,
he yet hoped that the clergy would never forget that
Christian spirit which alone should actuate the minis-
ters of religion. They should uncompromisingly op-
pose
anything that tended to impair or diminish the
efficiency of the church ; but then they should dis-
charge their duty in a Christian spirit, and not endea-
vour to deprive those by whom they were assailed of
any advantages to which they were legally, fairly, and
constitutionally entitled.
Earl FIT Z WILL lAM said that he had heard with
very great satisfaction all that had fallen from his no-
ble
and learned friend, and he was quite sure that any
argument delivered by his noble and learned friend in
favour of the church would be more efficacious out of
doors than anything that could proceed from any other
member of their lordships' house. He regretted, how-
ever,
that so trifling a measure of relief as his noble
and learned friend had stated was intended for the
dissenters, and, so far from satisfying them, the pro-
posed concession would only have the effect of ren-
dering them still more discontented than they at present
were. He could not see how the laws relating to
clandestine marriages could operate so as to im-
pede that for which the dissenters asked • but he
must say he regretted exceedingly that his noble
and learned friend had gone at length into the ar-
gument relative to the connection between publishing
bans and clandestine marriages. With respect to
the speech delivered by the most reverend prelate, all
he could say was that no dissenter could have heard it
without feeling respect and love for the character from
which such sentiments emanated. The most reverend
prelate was, however, mistaken if he thought that old
recollections had passed into oblivion. Scarcely six
years had passed since the great battle was fought in
another place for excluding dissenters from all civil
offices. A great lesson was then given to the church,
from which it ought to have profited ; but he feared
that it had not, and that it was still liable to the taunt
then levelled against it, namely, that it had not assisted
in the well-,governing of the country.
The LORD CHANCELLOR never intended to
say that no other means could be adopted than pub-
lishing bans in the parish church. All that he meant
was, that it was a matter of necessity, under the Mar-
riage Act, that some proceeding must be adopted to
give publicity to the intended marriage of parties. If
the power were given to dissenters to publish the
names of the parties in the chapels or meeting-houses,
it would be attended with the greatest inconvenience.
For instance, it might be done in a place where only
half-a-dozen of people were present, and this, in point
of fact, would be no publicity. Such a proceeding
would be most injurious to the members of the esta-
blishment, as well as the great body of dissenters.
For instance, any of their lordships' daughters or sis-
ters might be inveigled into a marriage, and be in-
duced, pro hoc vice, to become members of a congre-
gation of dissenters. This might be called publicity ;
but in point of fact it would be concealment. He was
aware that there were great objections to the present
mode of publishing the bans, but these would not be
removed by ordering them to be published in dissent-
ing meeting-houses. The latter course would often be
adopted with a view to prevent notice being given to
churchmen, that their daughters were about to be run
away with.
Earl FITZ W ILL lAM
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY was aware
that objections had been made to the present mode of
publishing the bans. A different system was acted
upon some time since ; that was, that the names of the
parties were affixed to the doors of the parish
church. This was found to create general disgust
throughout the country, and led to a diminution of the
number of marriages, and it was therefore found
ne-
cessary to alter it.
The Earl of HADDINGTON wished for a mo-
ment palltfrom theirrm G
lordships'lasgo and also to the
natureattentiontothpnumbeio
of
the petition of
persons
to
i
w whom This
had been
petitionw
statedassaid hadid to
b
esubscribed
signed
bth ei;
names

52,000 inhabitants of that great and industrious city;
and the object of the petition was to get rid of the un-
scriptural and injurious alliance subsisting between
church and state. He was astonished at the prayer of
the petition, coming as it did from a place celebrated
for its attachment to the church of Scotland. He
thought it most surprising that any number of persons
should be found in that place to sign a petition which
was to have such an effect on the national church of
that part of the empire. He had been assured bya-
gentleman of great respectability, well acquainted,
with Glasgow, that a great number of names
of parties had been signed to that petition with-
out their knowledge ; that some had signed
their names over and over again, and that man)'
were sham names ; and also that boys had, for the
ptupose of amusement, signed their names to it.' le
could not be supposed that all the names affixedt° t!1
petition were those of persons qualified to judge of I,t•
The number of the signatures was equal to the wh°le
adult males in Glasgow, and he was sure that their
lordships would not suppose that the whole population
of that great city entertained such opinions as vilt
set forth in the petition. He would venture to al the
that the prayer of the petition was contrary to
feelings, all the desires, which the great body nt.,th:i
people of that city entertained for the establish
church of Scotland. He believed that many pers"'
had signed the petition without knowing what the
had signed, and also that man
of the church y names of persons Offy
affixed to it not members of Scotland,
or wishing that that church might be separated frail
the state, but who wished to promote the ruin of s'
churches. (Hear.)
pbyortitio,n6ooof names. The LORD CHANCELLOR observed that the
petition he had presented from Glasgow was sign, t
ensa.meHs
aeffidxidedntoot
itbewleiervee
ofth atthaenyungtru-ra,;
described by his noble friend, although it was Yel,:.f
probable that some of the signatures were those_„
boys, and some had signed their names more o,_ 7
once to it with a view to give increased weight to !,
from great numbers. This latter circumstance%he".
ever, was incidental to petitions having manY
tures. He had reason to believe that the persons liej
had signed the requisition for the meeting bads had
great care so as to prevent such proceedings ,
been alluded to by the noble earl, as they had g- .0
round with the petition. (Hear.) The persons 1_
question were 252 in number, and were most respelice%
able gentlemen. But even he admitted
things had been done as were stated by his
which
friend, and deducting in consequence the 8,60°' -us&
was certainly more than could be expected, agal(the
them would still remain 40,000 signatures. He the
Lord Chancellor) was given to understand that
o_
petition did not come merely from Glasgow, but fr
ell;
that city and its vicinity, namely, Glasgow and
six
nine miles round, which would give abtpdant peP°l..
tion, and he need hardly say that it was a very.e"
that noble

gious part of the country".
GlTashgeowßaisnhdopitsefvicLinOirshOowNedsatidhethaadtvatnhteagecsityth:t
those places with an established church had over oth,
places where there was no establishment. The estr
blishment at Glasgow, however, was very limited in
comparison with the population. There was a man at 4.
Glasgow connected with the established church 0 e
Scotland who had effected greater moral, and 11,
hoped that he might be able to add political g
in that place than any individual of his day. He
hardly say that he alluded to Dr. Chalmers. ( net"
hear.) There were in the neighbourhood of that pis°
between 50,000 and 60,000 persons for which the,
clergy of the church of Scotland were exerting the d;
selves to provide the means of religious worship; at
he would ask what had the dissenters done for tha
purpose ? The clergy, by their exertions, had alread,Y,
raised 12,0001., and they relied upon raising 40,000/,
with which they intended to endow the churches theY
were erecting.
The petition was laid on the table. . A
The Archbishop of CANTERBL
T R y presena..
petition from the Presbytery of Aberdeenshire °gains/
the separation of the church from the state. The Pe'
titioners, although dissenters from the Church of Pe'
land, felt interested as members of a Christian churteo_
in supporting the religious establishments of n!.
country. The petition was signed by the convener 4":,
the part of the meeting, and he understood that tweny,
highlyatcmPi
to
tronitoorhfil
more
eed. sems gratifiedno cerFees
distinguishedrtooii
nnfmg thhaimealtlhn Uatdahtsnaatitptfhvoopeehirseoles
learned
reeyacdendtooeofhnedf
is,Am,
ctbehbiroeetednorytpd i
p heardeheo
rteuaei Aberdeen i
eoowdfnfne'i estitrethethsehap:
jercriingiereeselegoe.i,:: A
thinatstnruoentei:eroe, 1
their
ChurchreEtdihreaerrpelads
tFtooil.TallizedeNuovftnileStLshc Scotland tril aaAtnbomdl e
.he
the believed
religious
people than the clergy of the Church of Scotland,'
presented four petitioas
from the dissenters of places in Yorkshire, praying ibr'r
the removal of grievances. The noble earl also pre' •
sented a petition from the Master Warden and otheg;
members of the Company of Cutlers at Sheffield f°t;
the better observance of the Sabbath, and that all qv: '
yelling might betut a. stop to on that day, and also
that an effectual stop might be put to amusements olu
the Sabbath. The noble earl also presented a petitiot
from Sheffield against the Corn Laws.
ley,
T hLe opnrrodabySli
noble
oFrfFdo
rlpErt
ebLseennsteeseparation
r petitionspresentedat
i
from
r church
thh fromeatn
hdrua
nslPta
rdas
state.
,
of Aylesford, Norfolk, comp ing
laini fof agllclutltaux ; also
tress, and praying for the rep ea_ o the mab
shire, against granting the claims of dissenters to
degrees in the universities. The noble lord said
he did not agree in the prayer of the last petition:co _
tabe petitions abbatfhro;malsoD aawpliesthi
petition
nr
ftrhoembemt tiedrdioetsoenr:aLnLei of 1
The Earl of ROSE BERRY presented a pett2,,e.
from Renfrew 'in favour of the Scotch Entail
The noble earl said he should move the second r dill
of this bill to-morrow, and that he should postponP.L'Ai
second reading of the Roman Catholic Marriages l' ,
until Friday.
t h fromeT bheet
placestßeri s
oh be
aipne or CARobservance
Cumberlandn
ca oLf tI
hSeL
Sabbath
bpd
br eaNst ehon.rttebdu
mf ob
eu rfrpi
se
itl jut, i °filo, 3,1
wasjotsheepnh\
The examination of witnesses relative t
rVLeAseuwßmiWsedl.CK B 0 R 0 UGH 81L.40.
this bat
On ..
George Harrison was afterwards exam.°
cross-examination he admitted that he ches,
Warwick by the name of the ~ King of the Poa
and that he had been several times in prison.
was the first witness ow°,
eahle.d* • ' '
John Wolley was then examined. toyed th 6 •
A messenger of the House of Commcvonsaspkronvownfor:
impossibility of serving summonses personal °now
persons required as witnesses. Their
names i
Oram, Dingley, Lapworth, and Tevers. , ~ er-
Thomas Jones, Oram's son-in-law, was tue-hoil
be issued against Oram and Dingley,
amined ; but nothing particular was elicited from OS.'
Mr. Page, another messenger, was exandne":,„ger•
evidence was similar to that of the former mess nano'
The Earl of DURHAM then moved that viarr„ be
Wicklow, the Duke of Wellington, nn
that tit% of
taken into the custody of the Sergeant-at-
the' house. +l, Sari 1:'
After a few words from Lord Wynford, —e 1.40.--
,•ind all
Chancellor, the question was put and nefralivoeft it now
at AthtethheoususegageosftioonroafmthaeadLopaninConeyA:ll'w_oroor
agreed upon that notices should be servea
should be required to attend the house or Friday
to ba_..Y-
If after such notice they did not attend,
intothe c''''
recourse to the extremity of taking thew
tody of the Sergeant-at-Arms. worth • I
f Lai) 0'
Notices also to be served on the house „the woo,
and Tevers, and their presence at the bar et
it-,
to be required on Thursday se'nnight• the'.
After the examination of Mr. Smith, another
ness, the house adjourned. orroc this
The examination to be resumed to-ra
day) at four o'clock, r i
d thata
y ntehi,ei:.

HOUSE OF
Am-00P---commoiv I
MOMS, fife lit-flute
The SPEAKER resumed the chair at twentY •
past five. their
hat
lordshipsesshagade fargomreedthetoLthoerdsuraintinshouAncniecieri:teitetyLoadi
Bill,a and
dhe
Corruption Dublin and
4Kmi nggpsoonenif2l tn, ad
Companytheribery
On the motion of Colonel SE ALE'
some other bills.
and assed• _
the
Market Bill was read a third time
Mr. O'CONNELL brought up the report of end-
Mr. Ole
committee on the Dublin Cemetery Bill.
ments were read a second time•
POOR LAWS' AMENDNIENT BILL' eery
Lord ALTHORP said that he thought 1" Ong
e wciiir le
desirable that the house should get into th
committee upon the Poor Laws' Amendment Oit'hlere,
vious to the Whitsuntide holyda s. He wished' ',l-- s'
fore that hon. members who hadY notices for Welt it
day next would allow him to take precedence% have
was the opinion of the house that he should no' „oois
preeedenee on Wednesday, then lie should ele..
that they should go into committee pro fool" -
the Fishguarcl

He should be very glad, however, if those
"°o• members who had bills for Wednesday would
allow him to take precedence on that day, pro-
ided it could be done without inconvenience.
Mr. GODSON said if such was the decision of the
house he should renew the motion of which he had
given notice for Wednesday.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said that he also had a
!notion for Wednesday next, and he trusted the noble
lord Would give him an opportunity of bringing it for-
ward. The discussion upon the bill for the admission
of the Dissenters to the universities was also fixed for
that evening.
Lord ALTHORP said, that perhaps an arrange-
!tent might be made for discussing the bill to which
the hon, bart. alluded on Friday instead of Wednesday,'
Mr. crC ONN EL L said the Beer Bill was fixed
for Wednesday.
After some discussion, in which Col. EVANS, Mr.
'clouluniv, and Lord ALTHORP took part,
The order of the day for the second reading of the
f "r Bill was discharged, and the second reading fixed
Friday next.
HAND-LOOM WEAVERS.
Mr. MAXWELL gave notice, that on the 15th
-`Bt. he would call the attention of the house to the
state of the hand-loom weavers.

FLOGGING IN THE ARMY.
iii Mr. O'C 0 NN E LL, seeing the Secretary at War in
Pla.ee, begged intent him a question, having apprised
ofthat it was his on so to do. He had been in-
:Pied that a private of the 42d regiment, of the name
Gilligan (we understood), while on his march, had
-enfiened, in violation of the late restrictive order,
kp(1"/I particular, in the absence of any medical person
hatever. The man had been long in the regiment,
pd several years in India ; the punishment
hhad been
in an end to from the circumstance of is
,fain -
g under the infliction of it, and he (Mr. 0 Con-
-17'11) therefore wished to know whether the flogging
',ad actual' been inflicted in violation of the standing
°rd,v.er, espeYciall that order which declared that no
stL" Punishment should be inflicted, except in the
presence of a medical officer ? •
„L, r• ELL IC E said, in consequence ofthe intimation
i:",elf the hon. gentleman had given himioaf hsieseinntethne-
otn to ask a question onthissubject,
regiment
d
was at the
lu er under whose command the
time this flogging took place, and had obtained
ein every quarter all the' information it was
hessible to collect. The courtmartial had been
hld in consequence of conduct on the part of
this soldier which was so mutinous as to give an
example to the regiment that made it almost
ImPossible for the commanding officer to pursue
the march of the troops with order and decency from
'Olehester to Dartford. The man had been absent
'ern parade on the preceding evening and on that
eorni -•When called upon before the troops to
xplain his conduct, he used language the most
I.4lbecoming and mutinous, whereupon the command-
Ing officer, uon his own responsibility, ordered a
,t2artmartial ;the courtmartial was held, the man was
„`",ed• and sentenced to receive 100 lashes, 50 only
th
which were inflicted, and inflicted in pursuance of
order of the commanding officer before the
(-I°l,`,„dier was tied up to receive his sentence, in conse-
k—ace of there being no medical officer on the spot.
that
klmitted, as had been stated by the hon. member,
~at there was no medical officer present at the
'cnruent, but the commanding-officer, whom he had
'ent for this morning from the barracks, and
bel/1')/r1 he had seen, had informed him that he had
then obliged to do it on his own responsibility,
eZilmi!liment being absolutely necessary in order to
e him to march the troops. The statement the
-111,1; and learned gentleman had heard about the
stt°ll-ier's having fainted under the punishment was
4seunded; and, so far from it having been the case,
his was able almost immediately afterwards to pursue
14 fla,rch. The commanding officer, after receiving a
ter 'min the War-office, desiring information on the
the requested to be informed (we understood
t\slit right honourable Secretary to say) by the
e'e°n how the man was after the punishment, and
iscly was that he had scarcely experienced any
111::avenience from it, that he had marched in
healthlaYs afterwards, and was now in perfect
4 The punishment was perfectly within the
~gulations • and no circumstance had "taken place
ilr°4 Which' an observation could be made except the
e ilbx of the medical officer, and which had been
planed in the way already stated.
UNSTAMPED PUBLICATIONS.
3,1,7°I;(„1 ALTHORP, in answer to a question from
11-00311 A, as to whether it was the intention of
ri°vTlinent to prosecute the sellers of unstamped pub-
rae:rit;c'a, said that in the situation in which govern-
as -- was Placed, they felt bound to enforce the law,
its otherwise
they
might very justly be considered
Whfactin paigd fo r s very
ta unfairly towards those publications
melt mps.
ing74I.'ROBINSON gave notice of a motion respect-
thet,‘, report of the poor-law commissioners--
tletY, that it afforded conclusive evidence that
het sYstem of poor laws, as they had been
ter upon, was highly detrimental to all classes,
ape 5 especially to the honest,. well. disposed, and in-
tln,l'lous poor, and that it was the duty of the legisla-
'e, when they proposed a new law upon this subject,
sk:Jully to inquire into the causes that had produced
f/C,a' eonsequence, and that that house would use all
kfralls to improve the morals of the poorer classes, by
s,,h'eding them beneficial employment, by encouraging
itju, habits, and by removing such taxes as pressed
Roo:11°1'3;y upon the poor, and by this means to restore.
On Wily
and respect for the constituted authorities.
t 0 re Fe °Pder of the day being moved for the house
mso ve itself into a Committee,
ilener ertarflyiEßßlES said he had a question to put to
of the Board of Control. He wished to
Court Whether the proceedings instituted. in the
etirj; " King's Bench, with a view to pro-
-1107 a mandamus to compel the Directors
to 0, Hon. East India Company to transmit
the 7'a an order upon the government there to pay
Of (j'aitns of certain Calcutta bankers upon the King
*itlid'id° had been abandoned? If Government had
tvot,i,c4wn these proceedings, he would be glad if they
G0,.0,. state whether it was the determination of
settf;',,,akent to employ their authority to procure a
mr`gent of these debts.
tight6hr,G°RDON said that in the absence of his
been s;',en.. friend he might say, that there had not
Mi.:velem time to gain the required information.
he abse,"RIES said that he could not conceive
Y °f the right hon. gentleman would create
I'4 kno -„"'LtY in answering the question. He wished
t:etinw -"at were the intentions of government re-
Loh
g Cho ? proceedings in the Court of King's
r 4
eeediti ixLTHORP replied that the present pro-
hi,V.s were abandoned, but he could not pledge
't as to any future acts.
ghte
earliest lIERRIES said that he should feel it his
itt '0 call the attention of the house to that subject',
v.
L'lt. ROEBUCK wished to know from the right
444 the Secretary for the Colonies whether Govern-
' had received an address agreed to in the Cana-
th,!especting the new Brunswick Bank, what were
litti„lltentions of Government respecting colonial legis-
thc'' there, and also in reference to the printing of
hl list.
tlre %Secretary STANLEY replied that ad-
hanssaZi not yet been received relative to affairs in
ad heeand in reference to the civil list, the proposal
f „Mr ,taken into consideration and rejected.
'4lth. INES wished to know when the noble lord.
ti 0a i
00 ntended next to bring the Tithe Composi-
pefore the house?
t,(l' ALTH OR P, who spoke in an exceedingly
Pt • a, NiloRas understood to reply that he could not
ribVialne a timp,
Sams (CIVIL OFFICES) BILL the /),. house then resolved itself into a committee on
(:,:ptions Bill.
titeiht°llsl DAVIES said that in furthering such a
tknil 41'ethis,
as while they ought not to shut
to •
he •ees t against those who had performed
,e tr,er 0 the state they should not open the door to
tttNib " political adventurer. The hon. and gallant
hj . et
thetr4tioii,,alluded to the objections of the present admi-
tta, wPeU out of office, to the large amount of
thee' ar,r' gialited to the great officers of
ge Present read an extract from a speech of
4,1-.°4llein Chord Chancellor, then Mr. Brougham,
" airieilds„,"e Pensions Bill of 1817. He moved
I,lBrd act 't -"at that from and after the passing of
4A+' the may be lawful to grant to the first
the
ry
u the principal Secretaries. of
the of of i'-hairrnan of the Exchequer, the First
Cif- to tile Admiralty, and the President of
hotter a4secirv.°C Commissioners- of India Affairs,
bf to ceed• lee of five years (Hear, hear), a sum
yeki,'ag one thousand pounds, and after a service
g.gis heis a sum not exceeding 2,0001.
J. ,„ug seconded,
"e h '.ItAR
Otit, °use th AM said that when he brought bFfor.e
t° 414 e
qUestion of superannuations he felt it his
chlllee the present bill as a necessary ad-

junct to it, and it was founded on the recommendation
of the report of a committee of which Mr. Bankes was
chairman. That report recommended the abolition of
sinecures after the death of the existing holders, and
from it resulted the Act of 1817 on the subject of
granting pensions to the Ministers of State. The
' abolition of the sinecure offices saved to the country
100,0001. a year, and the pensions granted amounted
to 42,0001., thus effecting a saving of 58,0001. a year.
(The right hon. member enumerated the different
officers of state who were entitled to pensions, with the
scale of allowance for each class; but in a hurried and
indistinct tone, as some evidence of the cautious exer-
cise of the power granted by tl.c bill of 1817, on which
the present was even an improvement.) He would
state that though the Crown had the power of grant-
ing pensions to the amount of 42,0001., it had only
granted pensions to the amount of 16,000/. ( Hear.)
And he thought it right to say that those pensions were
granted and the reduction made by the late admi-
nistration. ( Hear, hear, hear.) The great object
was to allow the crown to select from the talent
and independence of the country the most efficient
instruments for carrying on the national business, men
of talents but of limited incomes. Reduce the pre-
sent retiring allowance, which would be an inducement
to many men of character but of small fortunes to
take office, and the government of the country would,
to use the phrase of the hon. member, be thrown by
necessity into the hands of " trading politicians," to
whom salary was every thing, or into those of the
aristocracy of large fortunes, who disregarded salary
but looked for power ; and in either case the interests
or liberty of the country could not be much secured.
( Cheers.) Two thousand pounds a year now was but
nearly equivalent to three thousand in 1817. Many a
man taking office sacrificed his hopes and profession ;
and whether he retained office for two years or five years
it amounted to the same thing—his occupation was
gone. The late Mr. Perceval, when he was appointed
minister, gave up the profession of the bar ; and as he
used his case by way of illustration, he could not but
press on the notice of the house the probability of the
occurrence of similar cases, which well deserved the
generous and just consideration of Parliament.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division ; but
none took place, the amendment, as we understood,
being withdrawn.
Sir S. WHALLEY could not see why the longer
one held office the more pension should be granted to
him. If a private individual dismissed a servant the
dismissal did not preclude that servant from the means
of earning his bread or recurring to his former occupa-
tion. So it was with public servants.
Sir J. GRAHAM said if the hon. member under-
stood the question he would not have made such re-
marks ; for the fact was that the clause was introduced
as a check on the evil complained of by the hon.
member. ( A laugh.) By the bill any person claim-
ing a pension was obliged to make a written statement
that his private fortune did not enable him to retain
that station in society that his rank entitled him to.
Sir S. WHALLEY agreed with the last observa-
tion of the right hon. baronet ; but he thought that
pensions should be granted to poor persons only, *and
only on the ground of the inadequacy of private fortune
to enable them to uphold their station in society.
Sir J. -GRAHAM—Oh, then 'the hon. gentleman
excludes public service altogether. (Loud laughter. )
Sir S. WHALLEY said he meant to include pub-
lic service as well. ( A laugh.) The hon. member
then proceeded to read an amendment on the clause.
The confused mode in which he read parts of the do-
cument, the repeated alterations and corrections that
he made, and his sitting down at last from an apparent
inability to decipher the paper, or convey any clear
notion of its design, excited great merriment. Amidst
the confusion that followed we could not ascertain
whether he put his amendment formally or not.
Mr. ROBINSON said that Parliament possessed a
control over the contemplated provisions of the clause.
He could not help saying that it was disheartening to
a well-meaning Minister like the hon. baronet, to
whom great credit was due, when he brought forward
a good measure like the present, to be met by obstruc-
tions, such as those thrown in his way. He would
then advise the hon. member to withdraw his amend-
ment.

Mr. O'DWYER thought no regard should be had
to the inadequacy of private fortune. No one could
by taking office injure his personal prospects, as he
could return to his former pursuits.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that if the consideration of
the inadequacy of private fortune to maintain a Minis-
ter in a suitable condition were not introduced into the
bill, any wealthy Minister, the present Chancellor of
the Exchequer for instance, who had been glanced at
by an hon. member, might claim as a matter of course
his pension ; but the declaration now required would
exclude him from it.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG and Mr. HAWES said a few words.

Sir E. CODRINGTON did not object to the
clause, but he regretted that pensions were not regu-
lated more by the services of public officers.
After a few words from Mr. O'DWYER, the clause
was agreed to ; and, after a short conversation, in
which Sir J. Graham, Mr. Guest, Sir S. Whalley,
and Mr. G. F. Young took part, the ninth clause was
ordered to stand part of the bill.
On clause ten being proposed,

Sir J. GRAHAM- moved that the words "more
than ordinarily meritorious" should be omitted. The
right hon. baronet, in the course of some observations
not very audible in the gallery, stated that the amend-
ment was proposed to meet an objection urged against
the bill by a class of individuals whose zeal and activity
in the public service entitled their opinions to the con-
sideration of the house. He meant the clerks em-
ployed in the public departments of his Majesty's ser-
vice. These individuals objected, and he was bound
to say with some reason, to the alteration which the
bill as it stood would effect in the existing superannua-
tion system. _ _ _

Mr. F. BUXTON thought that if any change
were to be made in the superannuation system the
sums taken possession of by government from the va-
rious departments upon the occasion of the present
system being established, should be refunded. He
understood that 73,000/. from the excise, and 254,000/.
from the Customs, had been appropriated by govern-
ment at the period when the last alteration in that
system had taken place ; and, if the government de-
parted from the compact into which it then indirectly
entered with the clerks of the public departments,. he
thought it would be but justice to refund those sums,
which, at compound interest, would now amount to
800,000/. The bill, he did not hesitate to say, would
operate most injuriously upon several of the old public
servants ; and if it were to be carried it was the duty
of the house to remove every just cause of complaint,
as far as it might be practicable.
Mr. S. RICE defended the clause as it stood.

Mr. TOOKE proposed an amendment to the effect
that the clause should relate only to those who had
entered the public service subsequent to the sth of
August, 1835.
Colonel DAVIE S contended that the public ser-
vants had nothing; to complain of. The dead weight,
which in 1810 had amounted to only 94,0001. per an-
num, in 1831 amounted to 540,000/.

Mr. F. BARING contended that there was no vio-
lation of the contract, inasmuch as the clause was in
conformity with the resolutions of the house passed in
1810. The scales of retired allowances had always
been subject to changes, and Parliament, in 1821,
had altered that which had been fixed in 1810. The
discretion of the Treasury in fixing the retired allow-
ances of public servants had the most beneficial effects
upon their conduct.
Mr. AGLIONBY supported the clause, and,
After a short discussion between Mr. Lloyd, Mr.
Vernon Smith, Major Beauclerk, Lord Ebring-
ton, and Mr. Hawes, Mr. Tooke withdrew his amend-
ment.

Clauses from 11
neon. 25 were put and carried ne. con.
On clause 26 being put, which relates to the reduc-
tions of retired allowances.

Lord D. STUART objected to the clause, ee
n the
ground of its acting retrospectively. The object
had in view would be fully attained by leaving out he
of
the clause all the words after the words "per cent."
in line thirty-five ; and when the proper time arrived
he should move that this part of the clause be omitted.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the arguments of the
noble lord would apply as much to the part of the
clause before line thirty-five as to that which followed.
He should be sorry to be understood as wishing to do
anything that would trench on the most religious ob-
servance of all contracts that had actually been made
with any parties.
Sir H. HARDING E was desirous of knowing if
the right hon. baronet could give the house any idea
of the probable saving to the country that would arise
from the present measure. In a bill of this descrip-
tion good care should be taken that no individual should
suffer any damage by its provisions, and he hoped,
therefore, that the right hon. baronet would consent
to alter the clause. •

Sir R. PEEL said that there could be no doubt but
all those clerks who had received their appointments
,since the year. 1829 must abide by the conditions on

which they accepted office, and .1, liable ti,
operation of the present measure ; but it was far ti s _
rent with those who had been is (Ace previous to th,o
period. Many young men of liberal education, ai.d
valuable acquirements and talents, had taken appoint-
ments of this nature calculating on their gradual but
sure promotion in the service. It was not for the salary
of 901. or 1001. a year that this class of young men ac-
cepted those situations, but with the hope of promo-
tion. He thought it would be extremely hard and
unjust to turn round on those men now, after spending
a great part of their lives in the public service, with
the understanding that their promotion was to go on,
and bring them under the operation of this bill. He
did not deny the competency of the house to do this,
but he very much doubted the justice of such a pro-
ceeding. Suppose a man who now had a salary of
5001. a year should be promoted or transferred to a
situation where the salary was 550/., was he, by the
increase of 501. a year, to come within the provisions
of this clause ? If so, he should consider it exceedingly
unjust.
Mr. F. BARING begged to call the attention of
the committee to the fact that none of the present sa-
laries were to be made liable to any deduction, as it
was only in the event of promotion that the clause was
to apply.
Mr. LLOYD said the proper course to pursue was
to let the clause take effect only on those who were
appointed with the understanding that they were tb be
liable to a measure of this sort ; but it would be very
unfair, he thought, to subject those who took office
with no such understanding to an ex post facto law.
Promotions in the army and navy went on regularly,
and the same principle should prevail in cavil depart-
ments.

Sir J. GRAHAM said that promotions in the army
and navy, it was very well known, did not go on by
seniority, for the most fit and efficient persons were
always selected for promotion. He should be.exceed-
ingly sorry, at the same time that he did not agree
with those who opposed the clause, to sanction any
measure that bore the appearance of hardship or in-
justice, and he should therefore consent to alter the
clause, so as to embrace only those whose appoint-
ments bore date subsequent to the Bth of February,
1822. ( Hear.)
Sir R. PE EL congratulated the right hon. baronet.
on this voluntary acquiescence with the feelings of the
committee,

After a few words from Mr. O'DWYER,
The clause with the amendment was agreed to.
The remaining clauses of the bill went through
the committee without opposition. The report was
brought up, and ordered to be received to-morrow.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.

On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the bill for
the better prevention of bribery and corruption at elec-
tions was re-committed.

On the suggestion of Mr. W. W. WYNN, clause
33 was omitted. By this clause any elector reported by
a committee to be guilty of bribery would have been
punished by perpetual disfranchisement.
The several clauses of the bill were agreed to, the
house resumed, and the report was ordered to be re-
ceived to-morrow (this day).