The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-30 00:00:00

HORSES ARRIVED IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD.

Duke of Richmond's Ketchup, Mr. Rawlineon's Re-
venge, Mr. Cosby's Bravo, Mr. Gratwicke's sister to
Frederick, Lord Exeter's Cactus, Colonel Peel's Young
Rapid, Mr. Grant's hr. f. by Emilius, Lord Conyngham's
brother to Blythe, Captain Gardnor's Myrrha, Lord Ches-
terfield's Weeper, Lord Egremont's brother to Spermaceti,
Lord Warwick's Trepidation, Mr. Greville's Whale, Mr.
Kent's Baleine, Lord Egremont's sister to Hayhurst, Mr.
Forth's Cinderella, Capt. Bulkeley's Trickery, Mr. Forth's
Marpessa; Sir M. Wood's Contriver, Mr. Ley's Partiality.
All the above are three yrs old.
Two-Year-Olds.—Duke of Richmond's Gulistan, Mr.
Greville's Chantarelle, Mr. Greville's Kisler Aga, Lord
Egremont's sister to Tom Thumb, Lord Exeter's sister
to Cactus, Mr. Sadler's Delightful, Mr. Grant's f. by
Blacklock, Lord Egremont's f. by Skim, Mr. Forth's
Robinson Crusoe, Mr. Kent's Utica, General Grosvenor's
c. by Stainborough, Mr. Cosby's Stradhally, General
Grosvenor's Pigeon, and Captain Berkeley's Goldfringe.
Four-Year-Olds, and upwards.—Lord Lichfield's Min-
ster, Mr. Forth's Marvel, Mr. Forth's Sir Benjamin Back-
bite, Mr. Forth's Gratis, Mr. W. Day's Donegani, Mr,
Gully's Lady Fly, Mr. Gully's Hokee Pokee, Mr. Cosby's
Pussy, Mr. Cosby's Galopade, Mr. Martyn's Herder,
Captain Gardnor's Messenger, Mr. Haddy's Clara, Mr.
—'s Scrub, Mr. Bigg's Little Red Rover, Mr. Robin-
son's Windcliffe, Lord Chesterfield's Tourist, Sir M.
Wood's Camarine, Sir M. Wood's Lucetta, Lord Exeter's
Beiram, Mr. Thomas's Suffolk Punch, Lord Egremont's
sister to Dryad, Lord Egremont's c. by Centaur's dam
(3 years), Lord Egremont's c. by Whalebone, Mr. I.
Day's Liston, Mr. I. Day's Boy-blue, Mr. Rush's Rattle,
Mr. Rush's Guildford, Mr. Rush's Walter, by Waverley,
Mr. Wreford's Walter, by Whalebone, Mr. Theobald's
Expectation, Mr. Theobald's Gretna Green, Mr. Kent's
Rubini, Duke of Richmond's Gondolier, Mr. Smith's
The Witch, Mr. —'s Louisa, Mr. Wreford's
besides several platers, in all nearly one hundred.
The party invited to the Duke of Richmond's con-
sists of—

The Duke and Duchess of Argyll, the Marquis and
Marchioness Conyngham and Lord Mountcbarles, the
Marquis and Marchioness of Tavistock, the Earl of Lich-
field, Lord Stradbroke, Lord Jersey, Lord Verulam, Lord
Tetnplemore ; Lords William, Geo., and Arthur Lennox,
Lord George Bentinck, Ladies S. Lennox and G. Paget,
Colonels Peel and Udny, General and Mrs. Grosvenor,
Sir James Graham, Lord and Lady Chesterfield ; Messrs.
Rous, Greville, Payne, Craven, Cosby, Byng (and Lady
Agnes), Stanley, M. Stanley, Ponsonby, J. Mills, Gard-
nor, and Thornhill.

Bognor, Chichester, Midhurst, and all the villages
within tt n miles of the place are crowded ; not a bed or a
stall to be had for love or money.

The appointments for to-morrow :
The Trial Stakes of 10 sovs. each. The horses not yei

named.

The Drawing-room Stakes of 25 sovs. each, with a bonus
of 10 sovs. each, for three-year olds. Once round.
(41 subscribers, seven of them to the bonus only.)
Duke of Richmond's Ketchup, Mr. Forth's Pagan, Sir
M. Wood's Vespa, Mr. Rawlinson's Revenge, Mr.
Cosby's Bravo, Mr. Chifney's Galena colt, Lord Ux-
bridge's f. by Trumpeter, Mr. Gratwicke's sister to Fre-
derick, Lord Exeter's Minima, Lord Exeter's Cactus,
Lord Lichfield's Mounteagle, Colonel Peel's Young Rapid,
Lord Jersey's Ishmael, Duke of Portland's brother to
Atnphiaraus, Mr. Ridsdale's Glaucu., Mr. Ley's Solace,
Mr. Grant's L. by Emilius, Mr. Stewart na. c. by Long-
waist, Mr. Gully's Ceres, Lord Conyngham's brother to
Blythe, Gen. Grosvenor's Fslernia, Lord Jersey's Glen-
more, Lord Tavistock's Cowdray, Mr. Gardnor's Myrrha,
Lord Chesterfield's brother to Marcus, Lord Chesterfield's
Weeper, Lord Chesterfield's Fanny Grey, Captain Bulke-
ley's Trickery, Mr. Forth's Imbar, Lord Egremont's bro-
ther to Spermaceti, and Lord Warwick's Trepidation.
The Levant Stakes of 50 sovs. each, 30 ft., for two
years old. Half a mile.
Duke of Richmond's Gulistan, Mr. Greville's Chants-
relle, Mr. Cosby's Stradbally, Lord Lichfield's Whitefoot,
Gen. Grosvenor's Pigeon, Captain Berkeley's Goldfringe,
Mr. Kent's Chios, Lord Chesterfield's Honeymoon, Lord
Exeter's sister to Cactus, Mr. Sadler's Delightful, Mr.
Greville's Kislar Age, Mr. Grant's f. by Blacklock, Gen.
Grosvenor's c. by Stainborough, Mr. W. Edwatcl's f. by
Middleton. Mr. Forth's Robinson Crowe, Lord Egre-
mont's f. by Skim.
100, h. ft.—Mr. Kent's Baleine, 9st., against Mr.
Cosby's Pussy, 6st. 111 b. Three-quarters of a mile.

QUEEN HITHE REGATTA.
The annual wager for the wherry and other prizes, given
by the inhabitants of Queenbithe, took place yesterday. A
more miserable apology for a rowing wager was never wit-
nessed, it being in three heats, and only four meo contend-
ing. At the conclusion of what was misnamed the grcnd
heat, J. Jeffs, light blue, was the winner.

We learn from an euthority on which we can
rely, coming from a quarter not a hundred miles from
" Haddington," that some of the Scotch Peers are &tee
mined on trying to throw out the Burgh Reform Bill.
We hear that their Lordships calculated on the support of
a nobleman of very opposite principles, but we believe
they reckon without their host, his Lordship having been
very anxious to give to the whole of the Scotch burgh.,
the same liberal Constitution which he was mainly in.
strumental in procuring some years ago for the town
with which he was locally connected ; but in the mean..
time his Lordship is quite ready to give his cordial
support to the Lord Advocate's Bill, which cuts at the
root of the system of self-election in Scotland. This note
of preparation on the part of the Scotch Peers, we under-
stand, has created some sensation among their countrymen
in the Lower House, and a meeting of the latter is, we
learn, fixed for to-morrow, to adopt such measures as
they may deem necessary, should their Lordships perse-
Yere in throwing out the Bill. Where is this to end ?-
-Morning Chronicle.

CHARLES X.—The Temps relates the fo,
lowing anecdote The influence which Cardinal Lati
has obtained over the mind of Charles X. is notorious, but
the origin and causes of this influence, which has been so
fatal to the Ex-King, are not so well known. The fol-
lowing has been communicated to us by persons whose
positions have enabled them to become well informed on
this subject. Charles X., when Count d'Artois, had a
great many mistresses, but the one to whom he was most
tenderly attached was Mdme. de Polastron. This lady,
in her connection with the ContE d'Artois, felt all that
excess of sentiment so natural to a woman of southern
climes, and the Prince met these sentiments with
equal intensity of feeling. Some time before the death
of Madame de Polastron, the Chaplain in ordinary
of the Count d'Artois died, and a substitute was
sought for. M. de Latil, then only an Abbe, was
preparing to embark for America, when the vacant ap-
pointment was offered to him. It was then but a poor
provision, but the young Abbe preferred it to taking the
chances of a voyage to America. Mdme. de Polastron,
who was then in a dying state, wished to prepare for her
approaching end, but she had lost her ordinary confessor,
and had but a limited confidence in the young chaplain.
She, however, desired to see him, and, after frequent
interviews, made her confessions. Upon this she entreated
the Count d'Artois to promise to comply with a last request
she would make to him. The Prince entered into the
engagement. Mdme. de Polastron then made him solemnly
swear he would never give his affections to another woman.
This oath was taken in the presence of the priest, and in
order to render the obligation more impressive, she desired
that the same band should at the same time administer the
Holy Sacrament to them both. M. de Latil then received
the ccnfession of the Prince, and admitted the two lovers
to the altar, where they mutually swore eternal fidelity.
This ceremony left a deep impression on the weak mind of
the Count d'Artois. Mdme. de Polastron, having thus
enchained the future life of her lover, died contented.
Charles X., who was then only 45 years of age, remained
ever faithful to his sacred engagement. From this time
M. de Latil became the confidant of every thought of the
Prince, and his ascendancy increased with the age of his
penitent, till it attained an extent impossible to describe,
and to which may be attributed all the faults of the reign
of Charles X. In 1814 be was frequently urged to marry
again. The friends to the dynasty, seeing with pain that
the Duke d'Angouleme had no child, and not knowing
whether the Duke de Berri would be as fortunate in his
marriage as he had been in his previous amorous adven-
tures, were induced by the perspective of a failure of the
elder branch of the family, to reiterate appeals to him to
contract a new alliance, but he as constantly refused. One
of those who were most attached to the Count d'Artois
carried his importunity farther than any others, and wrote
a long letter to the Prince, stating that the affection he had
ever shown towards his two sons made it an imperative
duty for him to take a new consort, in order that his
children by her might be able to protect their elder bro-
thers, as every thing was to be feared for them, in any
moment of political excitement, occasioned by the parties
known to be so exasperated against the family of the
Bourbons. This letter had no better EUCCtSS than the ver-
bal importunities to which Charles had been subjtcttd.
M. de Latil was by bis side; he ruled the mind of the
Prince, and would not suffer him to break his oath. The
tat assassinationhee
Countworuinth
r o
d:Aof r
ttohi
se Dukethe
le t deter Berri
which recalledNvati
addressed the mindto b
hint
I
in 1814. About one in the morning of the 14th February,
the
found him
bltleatlheed in
letter entered
atnhde
iCnabainsteatteofof gtherePartinagcei.,.
laden. The reception was a silent one, and a mutual
pressure of the hand was the only communication of their
respective feelings. At length the Count d'Artois, turning
towards his desk, broke the silence by saying, My dear
V--, take up that paper, and see what I was leading when
you Came in,' It was the letter written in 1614.

That your Committee have confined their inquiries to
the corrupt practices existing in the elections of Chief
Magistrates and Members of Parliament, since the year
1823 inclusive.
And your Committee have not instituted any further
inquiry into bribery and corruption alleged to have been
practised at the election of 1832, such inquiry having
been the immediate object of the former Committee, and
having been already reported upon by such Committee to
your Hun. House.
That between the years 1823 and 1826, both inclusive,
and in the year 1828, the elections do not seem to have
been keenly contested, and that there is no evidence of
particular bribery or treating having been resorted to.
That at the contested election for Mayor in 1827, the
price of votes began at the sum of 6s. each and rose to
201 ; and at the contested election for a Member for the
representation of the borough in 1830, the price began at
2/. and rose to 601., and in one instance to 801.
That at this contest in 1827, for Major, the election
cost each candidate or his friends seven or eight thousand
pounds ; and that at this contest in 1830, for a represen-
tation, the election cost each candidate or his friends up-
wards of 40,0001.
That from documents and evidence on the minutes of
this Committee, it appears that 2,661 individual freemen
of the borough at this election were systematically bribed,
and that no evidence has been tendered before this Com-
mittee to refute this imputed bribery.
That of the 2,661 freemen thus bribed in 1830-1,880
of the same pereons still remain on the register entitled to
vote; and that your Committee deem it proper to report
to your House that the burgesses or old freemen are the
only persons entitled to vote at the annual elections of
chief magistrate and bailiffs for the borough.
That it has been proved that at two different periods
before 1823 two offices in the Customs were bargained
for and sold, and that the proceeds of these sales, as they
arose, were separately handed over to the Committee for
the time being of one of the candidates for the representa-
tion of Liverpool, under the name of " A subscription to-
wards defraying the expenses of the contested election" on
the part of the said candidate.
That at present many houses in Liverpool, assessed at
the bona fide value of 10/., and under 12/., are corm•
pounded for, the rates for such houses being now paid by
the landlord. Yet there still remain on the register en-
titled to vote 7,656 householders, which number is con-
stantly increasing.
That the corporation of Liverpool, conducting the de-
fence on behalf of the freemen in this inquiry, are governed
by a council of forty-one members, who are self-elected, and
disburse a revenue of 98,000/. per annum, the accounts
of which are annually published and circulated ; and the
members of this council are alone eligible to the office of
chief magistrate and bailiffs.
That the bribery and corruption, both at elections of
chief magistrates and members of Parliament were presented
by the grand jury in the open court, in 1827, as a nuisance.
That it appears from the Journals of the House that
on the 4th of February, 1828, a petition from the mayor,
bailiffs, and burgesses, of Liverpool, was presented to the
House, and a Bill was accordingly brought in and read a
first time on the 12th of February of that year, " for pro-
viding a more convenient place, and making certain regu-
lations fer the elections of Members to serve in Parliament
for the borough of Liverpool, in the county of Lancaster,
and also of a mayor and bailiffs for the said borough fur
fixing a certain period within which persons admitted to
the freedom of the borough shall be entitled to vote, and
for preventing frauds in the personation of voters," and the
same was read the first time and ordered to be read a

second time.
And that no further proceedings have since taken place.
That your Committee find that in 1831, March 28, a
Committee of the House appointed to try the merits of the
petition, reported that gross bribery and treating prevailed
during the late election for a burgess to serve in Parliament
for the borough of Liverpool.
That in 1831, March 29, the House suspended the writ

nem. con.
That in 1831, April 16, the House further suspended
the writ.
That in 1831, April 22, Parliament was dissolved.
That in 1831, May 3, in a new election for Liverpool,
Mr. Ewart and Mr. Denison were returned.
That in 1831, Jurw 24, Mr. Benett gave notice that he
would, on the 29th of June, move resolutions on the state
of the representation of the borough of Liverpool.
That in 1831, July 6, Mr. Denison, having been elected
to serve for Nottinghamshire, moved a new writ for the
borough of Liverpool, when the Marquis of Chandos
moved the adjournment of the debate until the next day,
which was agreed to nem. con.
That in 1831, July 8, Mr. Denison again moved for
a new writ for Liverpool, and the Marquis of Chandos
moved the adjournment of the debate until the House had
disposed of Mr. Benett's motion, and that the House
divided—For the issuing of the writ 99—Against, 117.
That in 1831, September 5, Mr. Vernon moved for a
new writ for Liverpool, when Mr. Benett proposed as
amendment, that the House do agree in- the report made
on the 26th March last, " That gross bribery and treat-
ing prevailed during the late election at Liverpool, (viz.)
1830." The House divided—For issuing the writ, 35
—Against, 76—when it was resolved, That such bribery
and treating require the most serious consideration of the
House.

Ordered.—That leave be given to bring in a Bill to
prevent such bribery and treating.
That in 1831, September•l9, a Bill for disfranchising
the freemen was read a first time, and ordered to be read
a second time.
That in 1831, October 12, the Bill was read a second
time.

That Mr. G. Vernon moved a new writ for Liverpool,
—For issuing the writ 93, against it 67.
That in 1831, November, there was a new election.
That in 1832, January 27, leave was given to bring in
a Bill to prevent bribery and treating at Liverpool.
That in 1832, January 31, the Bill was presented and
read a first time.
That in 1832, May 23, the Bill was read a second
time—Ayes 44, Noea 10.
That in 1832, May 24, witnesses were ordered to at-
tend the Committee [1 832, June 273—Resolved that the
House will resolve itself into the Committee, 1832,
July
4th---Resolution read.—Ordered, that it be an instruction
to the Committee that they have power to examine wit-
nesses in support of the Bill.
That during the period comprised between March 28,
1831, and the month of July, 1832, two elections for
Members for the Borough took place.
LThat in the elections subsequent to 1830, the suspension
of the writ, and the proposed Bill for the Disfrauchioe-

of the House be discharged. He could not be suspected
of being actuated by any personal feeling towards the Hon.
and Learned Member, and had no doubt the Hon. Member
had been guided by a sense of duty. Buthe (Mr. Methuen)
had a duty to perform also, as a Member of that House,
to take care that it did not get into a situation of great
difficulty, whilst absolutely called upon to do so, and he
did not think the House so called upon on this
occasion. He objected to the printer of the Times being
called to the bar of that Hone, when it was entirely a
personal quarrel between the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman and the reporters, which quarrel arose out of
a private dispute, on account of something which
the Hon. and Learned Member said at a public meeting.
The complaint of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
strange and contradictory. The privilege of the House was,
that there should be no reports, and the complaint was
that the privilege was not violated. The complaint of the
Hon. and Learned Member was, that he was not reported
enough. There could be no doubt of the power of the
House; but though it was excellent to have a giant's
strength, it was tyrannous to use it like a giant." The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman complained of partial
reports, but if he (Mr. Methuen) was not misinformed,
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had pro-
fitted more than any one else by partial reporting
and there was one paper, the Tralee Mercury, which
never repotted any speeches but those of the Learned
Gentleman. Three Dublin papers also always reported
the speeches of the Learned Gentleman, but never gave
those of the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies in reply.
I roust say one word, said the Hon. Member, respecting
the reporters. Human nature is frail, and I would put it
to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself to say whether
the statement of " deliberate falsehood" is not one which
must rouse not only the feelings of a gentleman, but of
every man. Sir, I have made inquiries into the character of
the gentlemen who are usually acting as reporters, and I
have reason to believe that many of them are men of
education—many brought up to the Bar ; and that there
have been many proud instances of persons having
risen to the highest eminence. from that situa-
tion. There is another reason why I do think
it impolitic in the Hon. Gentleman having again brought
forward his motion. Every Member must feel the pres-
sure of public business at this time; and I think after all
the time that has been given to Irish business—(Hear,
hear)—the Hon. Gentleman least of all is entitled to take
up our time with his private affairs.—(Cheers.) I really
am surprised that he should have brought forward
this at this moment.—(Hear, hear.) It does ap-
pear to me to be like an act of tyranny, and there
is no gentleman within these walls upon whose
lips I have heard more of liberty than upon the Hon.
Member's.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if the Hon. Member
will give one practical proof of his liberty, by consenting
that this motion be discharged without going to a division,
he will do more to gratify the feelings of the country than
any thing lie can say or do by oration. I shall not take
up more time; but I could not stand here as a Member of
this House, and allow the House to be brought into a situ-
ation, which, I am certain, will be one of great difficulty.
Mr. ROBINSON had great pleasure in seconding
the proposition that the order of the day be read and
discharged. He was satisfied this question arose from
circumstances not at all connected with conduct in that
House ; therefore, without pretending in the slightest
degree to say the persons who had fallen under the dis-
pleasure of the Hon. Member for Dublin were right or
not, he was prepared to state, that the House would take
a most unwise course if it adopted the line of conduct now
proposed by the lion. and Learned Gentleman below him.
He understood it was the intention of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman to follow up the proceedings by
moving that the proprietors of one of the newspapers
should be called to the bar for having reported its proceed-
ings. It was unnecessary for him to state that by a
standing order of that House it was a breach of privilege
tG report the proceedings of that House ; but be
would ask the House, if it agreed to this motion,
how it could, in consistency and with regard to its
own dignity of character, not follow it up by summon-
ing to its bar all the proprietors of the news-
papets in England who were equally guilty of the same
offence. He believed that on one occasion before, the
House was prevailed on to follow the course which the
Hon. Member had recommended. In 1771, the last time
be believed a question of this sort was brought before the
House, the printers and publishers of two newspapers
were on the motion of Colonel Onslow brought to the bar;
and the consequence was that the House of Commons got
involved in a discussion which lasted from the Bth of Feb.
to the 30th April before they could disentangle themselves
from the difficulties of their position.—( Hear, and
laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh, but if they con-
sulted the debate of that time, they would find that the dis-
cussion had led to angry debate, and popular excitement
and commotion, to the ultimate imprisonment of two of
the Members of that House in the Tower, and "certainly
without advancing the House in its own dignity or
character. The lion. Member complained, not that he
had been reported, and this was one of the anomalies of
the present case, but that be had not been reported. If that
was the fact, how many others had, with much better grace
to make the same complaint, and he must be excused for
stating, that, although the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
might perhaps think that his talents and position in that
House should cbmmand their notice, yet it was of equal
importance for the most humble Member of that
House, that his expressions, in reference to
his own justification and constituents, that his
sentiments should be given as well as those of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Cheers.) Any other
Member had an equal right with the Hon. and Learned
Member to complain of occasional omissions or mistakes,
or accidental misrepresentations. He, however, cordially
concurred with these Hon. Members who had stated that
not only were the reports of that House made with won•
der ful fidelity, but their general accuracy and fidelity were
quite surprising.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned
Member should be the last to make this complaint ; and he
implored the House not to accede to the presentmotion.
He heeged leave to support the amendment.
r'cClaylOra.Nt NAtilEieatLth Lu
pe
re)tai
witheolf tt
lee, e amendmentconsiderable
aobGfi
ee thenstul
er
mpHraon.
AplaeArntiiireb.uel(ra)
speech, wherein he alluded to his (Mr. O'Connell's) motion
being directed against the tradesman printer. When,zhe
commenced the controversy he had complained that the re-
ports of the present Session were to his own knowledge ex•
cedingly defective, and to his knowledge also designedly false,
and then the kindness of the Hon. Member (Mr. Methuen;
induced him to applaud him.—(No, no, from- Mr. Me-
thuen.) He understood that Hun. Member bad said at
much its that he was misreported.
Mr. METHUEN declared he had said no such thing.
_(Hear, hear.)

his own importance in the public eye. In placing himself
in opposition to the reporters he forgot his own past
life. It was not in the power of any set of literary gen-
tlemen to put down the Learned Gentleman. The Times
had endeavoured to prevent his return, but he hid suc-
ceeded nevertheless, as had every one the Times had op-
posed since the general election. Mr. Hill, whose
election to the office of Common Sergeant in the
City of London it had advocated, had failed. Some of
the privileges of the House were obsolete. The exclusion
of strangers was a power preserved by every Member ;
but this was a fitting time to consider whether that power
should not be tau,. ..may ennitietition. favoured by a
reduction of the taxes on knowledge, would produce
impartial reports. It was highly important that the sub-
stance of their proceedings should be reported to the public,
and he entreated the lion. and Learned Gentleman to
withdraw his motion. He had no doubt the present
affair would blow over, it being the interest of the news-
papers to give the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speeches.
Looking to the anomalous position in which they were
placed, he should suggest that if it were ton late this ses-
sion; a Committee should be appointed next session to
examine into the matter.

Sir R. INGLIS had no hesitation in saying he thought
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had, by his
proceedings upon the present occasion, placed himself as
well as the House in a very awkward as well as unpleasant
predicament.—(Hear.) Did the House, nay, did the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman himself, know the real position
in which the motion placed them ? He (Me. O'Connell)
stated that it was it breach of the privileges of the House
to report its proceedings. It was quite true they sat in
that House under the fiction that no one sew them, that
no one heard them, and they enjoyed the p'easing delusion
throughout the night, until the following morning, when
the Morning Journals proved to a demonstration that if
they had not been seen they had been beard.—(Laughter.)
Yet the same self-deceit was indulged in again the next
day. But what was the real ground of complaint in the
present instance ? It was, not that certain privileges had
been violated, but that they had not been violated. The
Learned Gentleman did not complain that a certain class
of individuals had committed a breach of the rules of the
House, but that as fir as respected himself those rules
were nut violated.—(Hear.) The reporters who
were the object of the Hon. Member's attack had not in-
' timated an intention of publishing what the House had
declared should not be published, but, on the contrary,
they had declared that so far as he was concerned they
would never hereafter commit that breach of privilege.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Was not, he asked, such tne
very sum and substance of the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman's complaint? It had been truly stated that
on many occasions not one half of what fell from Mem-
bers found its way into the reports; but did any of the
Members who suffered from such suppression think of
adopting such a course as that adopted by the Hon, arid
Learned Member for Dublin? He (Sir R. Inglis), for
one, had on several occasions been a sufferer by the omis-
sion of his speeches, but did he make any complaint of
that omission? Certainly not. He I.tl always consi-
dered it a matter of right with the proprietors of news-
papers to insert only such information as in their opinion
the public might most appreciate, and he invariab y
attributed to an exercise of that right the insertion or
non-insertion of his speeches.—(Hear, hear.) The physic ,1
impossibility of inserting everything that took piece
in that House in the compass of space allotted to de-
bates, which, considering the mass of news of all descrip-
tions of daily occurrence, and the necessity of catering sor
various tastes and different inclinations on the Nit of the
traders of newspapers, must be extremely limited, was, he
contended, quite sufficient to account for that suppression
of which be understood many Hon. Members comp Lined.
Those who had to minister to the tastes of all classes
were the persons alone qualified to deiide and select what
matters should and what should not meet with insertion;
and all attempts to interfere with their decision wouli, in
his opinion, be most unjust, if not altogether iinpracticab!e.
—(Hear, hear.) It was altogether a matter with which
no person but the proprietors of the newspapers them-
selves had to deal.—(Hear.) But to resume. lie repeated
he thought the Hou. and Learned Member' for Dublin had
placed both himself and the House in a very unpleasant
predicament. He would suppose the individuals whom it
was proposed to bring to toe bar already there, and he
would then ask the House in what manner were they to
be treated ?—(Hear.) He put it to the House whether it
was possible fur any one, be he ever so conversaut with
Parliamentary law or Parliamentary phraseology, arid no
one cutial possibly be more vetoed in both than the indi-
vidual who tiled the chairof that House, to devise any
,ny
form of speech by which the real nature of title t,
which the Hun. and Learned Gentleman comp a nod cud ,1
tie intelligibly stated.—(Hear,
'l'he proprietors
ad committed nu breach of privilege whatever.—(Resit,
zeal.) If tiieie was
r it teas to the
relwitree, and nut to
hat it wai silk-
mitt theta o:il;,
aught it to fall. ,utsiseeeq uet
to resist
tcro.beitabibinilatet
tt‘clitil'eeeitakidnita:ie:nl)
nd t+ad such g:lahloeryaie Psio:Ptda:.rell:a"rra:B:inut
~~tied upon the
pOr J
.iiifuring from him as to the propriety 01 the 1110tIOLI the
House woulei be yielding

R. Inglis) thought be had by his conduct on former occa-
sions sufficiently proved that he would never yield to any
unjust despotism on the part of the press. About two
years ago, it might be in the recollection of the House, in
consequence of a newspaper article, in which the
'Members of the House of Commons were denominated
as the lacqueys of the House of Peers, he had en
tered into a contest, not with the reporters, but with
the editors of the Times journal, and by his condue'
on that occasion he certainly evinced no disposition
to yield to the despotism of the press.—(Hear.) On
the present occasion he would oppose the motion of the
Hon. and Learned Member, not from any notion of feat
as regarded the press, or from any desire to succumb to its
influence, but because he felt that if the motion was car-
ried they would have to contend with the same difficulty
which met a somewhat similar proceeding sixty years ago,
and that the remainder of the Session would be wasted in
an ineffectual endeavour, not to compel the reporters of
the public press to conform to the rules of the House, but
to establish their sycematic violation.—(Hear, hear.)
Before he sat down lie wished to make one observation
regarding a letter which appeared in the Times of that
day, written by the individual who by name was alluded
to on a previous evening by the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin. That gentleman he (Sir Robert In
glis), had never seen, and knew nothing of ; but he
had no hesitation in saying, that when he was able to
boast of being honoured with the intimacy of a
late friend of his, Sir James Mackintosh, he could not
but be—without meaning in the smallest degree to under.
value the respectability of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin—fully his equal in regard of respectability and
gentlemanly feeling.--(Hear.) Taking that individual as
a specimen of the class of men against whom the present
proceedings were aimed, he put it to the House whether
great allowance ought not to be made for any irritability
of feeling they might have evinced on being told, as they
had been by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin,
not merely that they had committed an error, not merely
that they bail stated what was false, but that they know-
ingly and wilfully promulgated what they knew to be
deliberate falsehoods ?—(Loud cheers.) What would any
Gentleman do on being told he was guilty of uttering
a deliberate falsehood ? Would not his feelings of respect
for himself induce him by some means or other to re
taliate upon his accuser?—(Hear, hear, hear.) Then
he would say that very great allowances were to be made
for the feelings of a set of gentlemen who had been
unjustly accused in the way that the Hon. and Learned
Member bad accused the reporters of the public press.—
(Hear, bear.) The House of Commons, as had been
stated by the Hon. Member for Dublin, was very pro-
perly vested with strong powers of punishing libellous
comments on its proceedings, but the very impunity of
speech which Members enjoyed, ought to preclude them
from venting libels on a class of men as much possessed
of the feelings of gentlemen as they were themselves.—
(Hear.) In conclusion, trusting that he could not be
considered as in any degree yielding to the despotism of
the press, and feeling that the motion of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin would place the House in a
situation of very great difficulty, the Hon. Baronet inti-
mated-his intention of supporting the motion for the dis-
charge of the order.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought that the predicament
in which the House was placed one that was easily to be
got out of. Involving as it did a two-fold consideration,
perhaps the best way of settling that which referred to
the mere personal portion of the matter was to ref-r the
dispute between the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
and the Gentleman on the Times newspaper, who had that
slay addressed them to the arbitration of some individual,
and the House, he was sure, could not hit upon a better
one than the Right Hon. Gentleman who had last ad-
dressed them.—(Laughter.) Then, as to the public,
who, of course, naturally looked for information of what
was going on in that House, be thought, perhaps, that the
difficulty might aloa be got over. He quite agreed, that,
c,,nsidering the narrow limits within which reports, of
ecessity, wer_ confined, it was impossible to expect that
one tithe of what they spoke could he reported verbatim,
but lie also thought that the mere circumstance of that
impossibility was attended with beneficial results. If a
Member were to speak under the impression that every
word he said was to he reported in the papers the fol-
lowing morning, instead of being written in two or three
lines, a situation, he might remark, in which he often
found himself—(A laugh)—he (Mr. Harvey) would ven-
ture to say that they should soon hear as strong complaints
of the oppressive fidelity of the press—(Laughter)—as
they now did of its partiality. He (Mr. Harvey) had
never, in any way, held communication with reporters—
lie had never yet corrected a speech of his, or in any way
exerted himself to have them reported, but he candidly
confessed he had no corcplaint to make of the manner in
which he had been reported. There might have been one
or two occasions, perhaps, in which he thought himself
slightly mentioned in tie reports; but un ral:ction, so far
from being annoyed at the circumstance, he felt that the
suppression was an act of mercy rather than one of cruelty.
—(Laughter.) On one r.ccasion he had been requested
by a reporter to accommodate him with some documents
referred to by him in a speech, and on seeing some of the
body in an ante-room of the House, he ventured to inquire
how it happened that certain speeches, which struck him
as being very able, had not appeared in the papers. The
answer which he received he really thought a very proper
one " Do you wish the papers," said they, " to write
themselves down ?--(A laugh.) If we were to write the
hundredth part of the nonsense spoken in this House, the
public would hardly believe that the collective wisdom of
the nation would perpetrate such trash.—(Loud laughter.)
If we did so we should soon write ourselves out of em-
ployment."—(Laughter, and Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member for Saeffitld had, at the commencement of the
Session suggested that no Member should he permitted to
speak longer than a quarter of an hour—a suggestion in
which he thought there was very much good sense. He
should recommend that it be left to the fourth estate, and
to the Speaker to devise some plan for carrying it into
effect, and thus they might, perhaps, correct the despotism
which was complained of. That would at once relieve any
particular Member from the imputation of not having
spoken long enough—(A laugh)—when he had fulfilled the
prescribed measure of a quarter of an hour. If the Members
would do that, they would stand better in the public
,estimation—(A laugh)—they would be thought better of
;by the Reporters—(Laughter)—and he was sure they
;would have better reason to be pleased, when they saw
their speeches the next morning in the papers.—(Loud
laughter.) I should therefore recommend (said the Hon.
Member) that you, Sir, should have an hour glass by the
side of your chair, or rather a glass for a quarter of an
hour—(Hear, and laughter)—on one side of your chair,
and a bell on the other; that when the quarter of an
hour has elapsed by your glass, you should touch your
hell ; and then if the papers contained a similar memorial
to that inserted now, when the hour of three o'clock
comes, and when the Speaker is said on that account to
leave the chair—no matter what may he the importance
of the subject—why, then, Sir, when any Hen. Member
was in tne hie hest flights of his oratorical fancy, he
would at once be let down, on the assurance that his
sand had run out.—(Bursts of laughter.) These are the
considerations that strike my mind on the subject now
immediately before us. As far as the principle of the
ma:mr is concerned, I should beg leave to offer a sug-
gestion, which I trust will not be the less acceptable
because it i„zivel. I have no doubt that my Honour-
able and Learned 17 riend thinks he has cause to complain.
.
He says (so we undmatood the Honourable Member ;
but the constant and lively mirth which the Honourable
Member's speech and its humorous delivery occasioned,
prevented us from being positive), " Let me have a hear-
ing—give me a Committee, and I will show that I
have been wilfully misrepresented." If so, why let him
have his Committee, and the matter will drop there. If
the charge is made out, Mr. Nugent will not stand quite
as well as I could wish; and we may send our compli-
ments to Mrs. Brodie, and say that her gentleman—
Loud laughter)—has not conducted himself as he ought.
--(Continued laughter.) His connection with the
House, that is, his connection with the paper, would
cease. Though I think, Sir, that this question, as a
personal question, ought to be thus got rid of, yet, with
respect to the other part of the question, I think we
should, adverting to our own character, preserve that
character more pure, and add to the dignity of our de-
liberations if we could rid of our habit of talking—(Hear.
bear)—and confine ourselves to the substance, and length
will then be no longer the test of merit. Now, however,
i t is sc—for whenever an Hon. Member is speaking on a
particular subject, and I am coming down to the House
and meet some Hun. Gentleman coming up from it, and
I ask who is speaking and how—the answer often i.,
" 0:!, pretty well—he has only been speaking forty
minutes"--(Loud laughter.) The length of a speech is
now the test of its excellence. I do not think it ought
to be. In my mind he is the greatest man who is able
to put the greatest number of facts in the fewest words,
anti occupy the House for the shortest tune.—(Cheers.)
If that was the case with us, I think we should show our
good sense more than we do note, and we should not have
reason to be alarmed with the prospect of the session
lasting till September.—(Loud and long continued laughter
and cheering.)
Sir M. W. RIDLE ( wished to relieve binchelf from
the apparent inconsistency of now voting against a mea-
sure he had formerly supported. He should do so because
as the case now appeared, it did not seem to him to be

one for the interference of the House. The expression of
their sentiments by the reporters for the Times bad re-
ference to what the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
had stated elsewhere, and not in that House, as be had
at first understood. The Hon and Learned Member had
stated that they had misrepresented him. He thought
that, if that was a statement made in that House, no
person should presume to call on the Hon. Member for
words uttered in that place—but when be found that they
alluded to a circumstance which had taken place at a
tavern dinner, he thought that, calling on him
in respect of words so uttered was not a breach of privi-
lege. That they were unwise in determining not to re-
port the speeches of the Hon. and Learned Member he
did not doubt ; but under the circumstinces he bad
,tated, he was at a loss to conceive that what they said
could be construed into a breach of privilege; and he was
it a loss to know how their determination could be met
by that House. He should, therefore, vote against the
motion.

Mr. O'DWYER said that the excellent speech of the
Hon. Member near him (understood to be Mr. D. W.
Harvey) was such as might have been expected from him
if be had been counsel for the Times in a court of law,
and had had a brief to defend the paper; but he must
say, that he did not think the Hon. Member had treated
the subject with great good sense. No doubt the Hon.
Member would be rewarded for the exhibition of to-day—
he would be described as having sensibly and judiciously
addressed the House ; and no doubt, too, it would be
stated that the Hon. Member had sat down amidst loud
and long-continued laughter and cheering (of course it
would be said so, because the fact was so); and the
Hon. Member for Dublin would have his speech com-
pressed into one line. He (Mr. O'Dwyer), if anything
whatever was said of him, should be represented in one
line, and use would be made of the editorial power to
crush him. It was not the question whether reporters
should be allowed to report in that House, but whether
they should have a power to exercise as they please in
suppressing the speeches of Hon. Members. In his
mind, the suppressio veri was equal to the suggestio
falsi. It was as bad that an individual should depend
on their caprice, as to whether they would insert his
speeches or not, as it would be if they put into his
mouth words which he hid never uttered. He did not
wish to curtail the privileges of the Press; but it
was most important that Members of that House, who
were not sufficiently strong to bear up against this despo-
tism, should be supported. The question would be set
at rest by their vote on this evening ; if they negatived
the motion, the House could not again assert its privi-
leges. He implored them to negative the proposition,
but at that very moment they would bind themselves
permissively to throw open that gallery to the public.
He was free to admit that the public should be admitted ;
but as the matter now stood they must remember that if
they negatived the proposition they could not again
exercise the power now invoked, nor ever again bring a
printer to the bar of that House. They might say that
the time was now come when these matters ought to be
free from the exercise of all arbitrary power. In that
he agreed with them ; but while the standing order was
on their books, he did not see how they could negative the
motion.

Mr. HUME said that, having been the person who bad
seconded this motion, he trusted he should be indulged
with the opportunity of stating the view he took of this
question. He was not sorry for the difficulty they were
now placed in. He had before pointed out the folly of the
regulation ; but he had been answered, that every rule of
that House was founded in true wisdom, and that the
check they had ought not to be removed. What was the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin now doing ? Why,
he was keeping up the regulations of tbat House. Was it
fit they should be kept up? He said no ; and yet there
was no mode of showing their absurdity but the manner
in which the Hon. Member had acted. It was not a
question of getting rid of the regulations ; but the ques-
tion was, whether that rule, which gave the power to a
single individual to call a person who published their de-
bates to the bar of that House, should be acted on. He
thought it should not ; and the way to get out of the dif-
ficulty was, to adjourn this question, to bring their stand-
ing rule under the consideration of a Committee, and to
withdraw it, and then no one could again place the House
in this position. If they chose to wave the question of
publishing their debates, which be thought it was wise
they should do, then be asked, whether they did not desire
that their debates should be honestly and fairly given ? He
would not enter on the personal question between Mr. Nu-
gent and Mr. O'Connell. The question for the consideration
of the House stood upon broad public grounds; and if the
House desired that their Standing Order should be main-
tained, his Hon. and Learned Friend might go on, and
deprive the public of knowing any thing that passed in
that House.—(Some Hon. Member uttered the words
" The Times.") He apprehended that if they went on
under this order they must exclude all or none. Either
they must not allow their debates to be published at all, or
they must allow every person to come in, and then they
could have no right to complain. Let them repeal their
own Standing Order, and leave the newspapers. He
wished to mention a matter which he had just heard. It
was this, some of their debates had been lately very much
curtailed. The reporters were occupied in the other
House, and that accounted for the shortness of some of
their debates. He appealed to the Noble Lord opposite,
whether it would not be better to adjourn this question, to
take the Standing Order into consideration to annul it,
and to leave the question open. Then, let an authorized
reporter be appointed to give their debates. That scheme
appeared to him practicable ; but the idea that the Hon.
Member fur Dublin should give up his motion, while the
Standing Order remained, was too much.
Mr. BANNERMAN was not acquainted with any
reporters, and had never bad any communication with
them, directly or indirectly, till that day. That communi-
cation referred to a statement which had been agreed to
by all the reporters to the Morning Papers, and was to
the following effect :

" The reporters of the Morning Papers respectfully request
you to state to the House, that they deny in the most positive
manner the charge of wilful misrepresentation brought against
them by Mr. O'Connell, and they confidently appeal to its
Members for the truth of that denial.

" They beg to add that they are impressed with a full sense
of the inconvenience of the course which they have been most
reluctantly compelled to adopt.
" That course they have adopted as the only one by which
they could obtain the means of repelling in the House, as
publicly as it was made, a most unfounded imputation upon
their character and integrity--an imputation which, if left
uncontradicted, must utterly degrade them in the estimation
of society."

He thought this statement deserved the attention of the
House and the Hon. and Learned Member. He should
now only add, that he was glad to see the Han. Member
was beginning to break the neck of newspaper monopoly,
by entering into competition with them himself, and
beginning to be a newspaper proprietor; and if the Hon.
Member would withdraw the present motion, he would
subscribe to the paper.

Mr. O'CONNELL denied that be had had or should
have anything to do with being the proprietor of a news-
paper.

Mr. BANNERNIAN—Why he had received a resolution
to that effect, signed D. O'Connell.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, that be on'y signed it as the
Chairman of a meeting.
Sir R. PEEL thought it would be well if the House
were to consider, before they took the first step in the
present proceeding, to what termination it would come.
The real question on which the House had to decide was
whsther the course which the Hon. and Learned Member
proposed to pursue was that which would enforce the
particular object for which he contended ? For his part
he did not think it would have that effect.—(Hear,
hear.) Most skilfully had the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman endeavoured to dissuade the House from enter-
taining any proposition at variance with his motion, by
representing his expected opponents as persons shrinking
from the despotism of the Press. But he (Sir R. Peel)
need not, he was sure, urge the House to disregard, as
they bad been disregarded, such adroit representations.
He (Sir R. Peel) had never held any communication
with any reporter. He had never corrected a speech of
his during his lie, and beyond, perhaps, at the request of
some member of the press, sending details of figures, he
knew nothing whatever of the body beyond the knowledge
which, as regarded the manner the debates were reported,
was to be gained by a perusal of the papers. Such being
the case he could have no object in stating more than was
his opinion regarding the general accuracy and impartiality
of the reports which appeared in the papers, and he had no
hesitation in saying that although occasionally speeches
were much curtailed, and the interest 'of the newspaper
proprietor being to supply his readers with a transcript
and not a literal report of what passed in Parliament, that
was not to be much wondered at—the reports of the pro-
ceedings of the House were made with great fidelity, im -
partiality, and accuracy.—(Hear, hear.) During many
years of his life as a Minister of the Crown, be had occa-
sion to deliver speeches involving a variety of calculations
and details of figures, yet on no occasion did be remember
an instance in which an individual connected with a news-
paper had applied to him for any assistance, beyond, per-
haps, a statement of his figures, or in any way with a view
of obtaining personal advantage, lest their character for
impartiality and disinterestedness should be doubted.—
' ( Hear.) Now he confessed he thought it most creditable
to the body that there never yet was an instance in which

a member of it made any application to the Minister for
any personal advantage, making the condition of such ad •
vantage a tender of his especill services as a reporter of
public proceedings.—(Cheers.) Such conduct was at least
a proof of impartiality and disinterestedness, and a praise-
worthy desire of doing their duty towards their employers
and the public. When he (Sir• R. Peel) heard the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin speak of the exemption
which the privileges of that House extended to him
from the authorities of every power in the State—
King, Lords, or even the Judges of the land, he could
not restrain his desire to remind him that the very fact
of his possessing a power of speech irresponsible and un-
assailable by any tribunal, or any individual, ought to be
his principal inducement to exercise it with moderation,
and, above all, with a strict regard and adherence to truth.
—(Cheers.) His privilege of Parliament enabled him to
give utterance to whatever statements he pleased, without
the danger of his words being brought up against him by
any tribunal of his country, but it did not shield him—
fortunately he would say—it did not shield him front the
consequences ever attendant upon the utterance of what
was not true in the minds of those against whom his
attacks might be made. When, then, he took upon him-
self to assert, vet only that the reporters of the Morning
Papers had been inaccurate in the reports, but that they
were wilfully false—

Mr. O'CONNELL—I only alluded to the Times.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
stated most pointedly and generally that the reporters of
the Morning Papers were all false in the discharge of
their duty.

Mr. O'CONNELL—I only meant to follow up the
charge against the Tunes.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and
laughter.)

Sir R;PEEL—Did not the Hon. Member commence
his proceedings against the Morning Chronicle—(Hear)
—and had he not up to the last five minutes included all
the papers in his sweeping charge of falsehood?—(Hear,
hear.) Well, then, was it to be wondered at that, when
forty or fifty of those gentlemen—men, many of whom
bad held commissions in the army and navy—many of
whom had received an academical education—many of
whom were entered at the Inns of Court, and a portion of
whom were actually in practice at the Bar—could they,
as gentlemen, possessed of the feelings of gentlemen,
tamely suffer the base imputations which the Hon. Member
for Dublin had cast on them, knowing, as they did, that
such imputations were unfounded, and that there existed
not a single instance in which their character, as a body,
could be arraigned ?—(Cheers.) Although, however, he
thought circumstances tended to extenuate the conduct of the
body, he hesita.ed not to say in a speech of equal freedom
he thought no wrong they had received from the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dablin justified them in the sup-
pressed or wilful mutilation of that or any other Mem-
ber's speeches.---(Hear, hear.) He conceived that the
reporters of the public papers had contracted, not certainly
in explicit but in implied language, not only with the
House but with the public, for the discharge of a certain
duty, and that duty no man could say was duly discharged
either to the House or the public so long as a private
quarrel was permitted to operate as a reason for the
suppression or mutilation of the speeches of any Hon.
Member.—(Hear.) Supposing the Hon. Member to
succeed in excluding the reporters of the Morning Papers
from the gallery, did he think he could keep the public
from a knowledge of what was going on in that House ?
There was the Mirror of Parliament, the reporters of
which had not entered into a resolution not to report
the Hon. Member's speeches. Surely through the
means of that publication, the channel of intelligence
between the House and the people would be kept up.
A week could not, in fact, elapse before some other
papers, by promises to report the Hon. and Learned
Member, would obtain admission to the gallery ; and
he was confident Hun. Members themselves would, out
of a sense of the injustice done to the papers, supply
them with reports of what was done in the House, thus
eluding the vengeance which was sought to be visited
on them. The present motion was to bring the pro-
prietors and printer of the Times paper to the bar. Now
it was most important to consider when those individuals
were at the bar what charge was to be brought against
them. Was the Speaker to say to them that the report
which appeared in such a number of their paper was not a
fair report ? That was, indeed, the only thing that could
be said to them, for it would be an absurd joke to say that
their real offence was the reporting at all of the proceed.
ings of the House. Again, what assurance was the House
to demand from them ? Was it that they should in future
publish verbatim reports of all that took place in that
House ? If they demanded such an assurance, would it
not at once be refused ?—(Hear, hear.) Or would it be
to call on the proprietors to promise the publication of all
the debates sent to them corrected by the House ? Would
it be possible to extort from them any such assurance
(Hear.) In fine, the only promise they could get from
the proprietor would be, "I will preserve justice to the
best of my ability, but I tell this House that I will daily
commit a breach of its orders." The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman intimated his intention of exerci,ing his ex-
treme powers, or, in other words, that, should his motion
be negatived, he would clear the gallery altogether of
strangers. Now that the Hon. and Learned Member
could do, and he (Sir R. Peel) thought, if the House were
to take any steps whatever, that clearing the gallery alto-
gether was precisely the step they ought to adopt.
Mr. O'CONNELL—That is what I will do.

Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. and Learned Member says
he will do it; but why, I ask, did he not do it in the
first instance, instead of involving the House, should his
motion be carried, in a most unpleasant dilemma?—
(Hear.) " I will call before you one of the proprietors of
the Times, and I will insist upon his dismissing his
present reporters if they refuse to perform their deity,"
said the Hon. and Learned Member. Could the Hon.
and Learned Member insist on that ; or was the House
qualified, should the proprietor resist the demand, to order
his committal? He felt strongly it could not.—(Hear.)
"But," again said the Hon. and Learned Member, " I
will at all events ascertain from him whether his reporters
are his masters or his servants. If they are his servants
I will insist on his dismissing them, and if they are his
masters I will summon them to the bar." Now he (Sir
R. Peel) begged to tell the Hon. and Learned Member it
was impossible for him, or for the House, to do that,
and that he would only be drawing the House into a more
awkward position than it even then stood by making the
attempt. Well, then, if the present course of the Hon.
and Learned Member failed, there was but one other left,
namely, to move that the gallery be cleared.—(Hear.)
Was that course to be repeated every day?
Mr. O'CONNELL—Certainly, 1 will persevere in it.
Sir• R. PEEL—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman says
be will persevere in it, and he has a right to persevere in
it; but I say the Commons has a right to pause before it
commences this system.—( Hear, hear.) In his opinion
the lion. and Learned Gentleman would have been better
advised to take time, and not bring the House into acourse
from which it was difficult to see their way clearly. He
deprecated the idea of the House entering into a contest
with the editors of the newspapers, and exposing them•
selves to their private resistance. The House would ex-
hibit itself in the disagreeable situation of attempting to
exercise a power which it did not possess.—(Cheers.)
Lord ALTHORP said that the Right Hon. Baronet
had very fairly stated that the House ()tight to take care
before it involved itself in a contest out of which
it would be impossible to extricate itself with honour.
Where this question of privilege had been brought into
action there always had been found considerable difficulty.
He must say that whatever had been the difficulties which
had occurred before, they must have been very small in
comparison to those which in this case must arise, for the
fact was not a breach of privilege, but a desire that the
privilege should be broken, and an anxiety that people
should break it more extensively. Really he con-
ceived that the improper course which the House was
called upon to adopt would place it in a situation of the
greatest possible difficulty that: 1 d be imagined. He
was rather surprised that the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin should put so much importance on baying his
speeches reported, and, conskeinag the estimation in
which the Hon. and Learned M in stir was held, he (Lord
Altborp) should have supposed:U t s he Hon. and Learned
Member could not have thought for a moment that he
was called upon to bring forward this question as a serious
question. The Hon. and Learned Member had said that
he was placed in the same situation in which Hon.
Members on previous occasions had brought their cases
before the consideration of the House; hut be (Lord Al-
thorp) must observe, that the Hon. and Learned
Member, in his opinion, would have consulted much
better his own situation and his rank in society, by not
entering into such a contest. The position of the
Honourable and Learned Member niust certainly be
particularly disagreeable to a gentleman of his eloquence,
but at the same time this could not interfere in the slightest
degree with his duties in that House. He hoped that
Hon. and Learned Member would not persevere in his
motion, but if he would choose to persevere he ought to
take the responsibility of perseverance entirely upon him-
self.—(Hear.) The House would do well to avoid sn-
gaging in the contest in which it would be involved if it
were to assent to the motion of the Hon. and Learned
Member. —( Elear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL expressed a wish to hear the opinion
of the Speaker upon the subject of the privilege claimed by
the House.

The SPEAKER said that having been specially called
upsn by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin t o
answer a question, he should be sorry to be backward in
complying with the request, although at the same time he
must confess that he did not exactly understand to what
point the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's question was
directed.—(Hear, hear.) If the question from the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman was whether the publication
of the debates of that House were a breach of pri-
vilege, he (the Speaker) believed that the question was
superfluous, and the answer must be obvious before
he gave it. He believed that nobody ever doubted—he
believed that no Member of that House, whatever were
his views, had ever thought that the constant violation
of the privileges of the House was any thing but pertnis-
sory on the part of the House, and allowed solely for the
benefit of the public, and on the ground that it was
practically and perfectly consistent with all the intentions
which the House should have in the discharge of its duties
and in the transaction of public business. If the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin really meant to ask
merely this question, he (the Speaker) took it for granted
that every Member of that House must have been aware
of the only answer that could be given.—(Hear.) If the
Hon. and Learned Member meant by this question whe-
ther the House, in permitting this breach, intended to
take one of two alternatives, either to forego the obser-
vance of the privilege or to relinquish that privilege, then
his answer was, that the House had retained the right
of enforcing that privilege whenever it thought pro-
per. He was still uncertain whether he had got to the
meaning of the Honourable and Learned Member's ques-
tion. If it referred to the point before the House, it
appeared to him that the complaint was heavy, and that
it involved an unquestionable grievance ; but at the same
time the complaint was one thing, and the grievance an-
other. In his opinion, the dealing with the complaint
would be no remedy or cure whatever for the grievance.
He presumed that whatever was the point or object of
the Hon. and Learned Member's question, he had
now answered it. Under these circumstances it must
be, on the present as on all other occasions, for the
House itself to exercise its own judgment, when it
thought the occasion arose for carrying into execu-
tion any course it might be pleased to adopt, in order
to enforce the due observance of its privileges. He
would not go further upon the subject, and he only
hoped that he had answered the question which the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had thought
proper to put to him. The question before the House
now was the reading of the order of the day. He took
it that no amendment upon this question would arise.
The question was, whether it should be discharged or
not. The Hon. and Learned Member bad arid that he
had carefully looked into the Journals of that House, and
that he had found no instance of such an order being
discharged. He should be sorry to set his recollection
against the Hon. and Learned Member's inquiry, but yet
he could not doubt his recollection that, ever since be had
had the honour of filling the situation he now occupied,
many hours of debate had been taken up not only upon
the privilege now in question, but whether the breach of
that privilege called for the interference of the House
or whether, upon the whole, it was not such a case as the
House ought not to interfere in. The privilege itself, or the
right to enforce it, had certainly never been questioued ;
but the discretion of enfincing it bad often been the sub-
ject of discussion. He then put the Order of the Day
upon the bzeach of privilege, " That John Joseph Lawson
and James William Lawson be called to the bar of the
House."
Mr. METHUEN moved to discharge the order.

Mr. E. J. STANLEY seconded the amendment.
Mr. TYNTE hoped that the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber would withdraw the motion. When it was first agi-
tated, he thought it was something feasible. He found
that that was not so. He should now oppose it ; for the
Hon. and Learned Member was now attempting to trench on
the liberties of the Press, and through them on the liber
ties of the people. This day three years he (Mr. Tynte)
stood at the barricades in Pans, and he well remembered toe
one chief reason why the then King lost his Throne, and
was driven from his capital, was, that the Journals had
appeared one blank, in consequence of the Censorship.
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member spoke of the censorship
of the press, and of the Speaker as censor ; but he (Mr.
Tynte) should never consent to any censorship, not even
with the Speaker as censor.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped
the Hon. Member would withdraw his motion, and if he
considered that this was the only mode the :reporters bad
of testifying their feelings, at a charge of being guilty of
uttering wilful falsehoods, he could not wonder they should
have adopted it.—(Hear, hear, bear.) Even the worm
when trod on would turn, and there were among those
gentlemen many who had as high feelings as any Members
of that House.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, there vas no man on that side
of the House whose opinion he should be more proud to
follow than that of the Honourable Member who had
just spoken. The Honourable Member had said that
one of the causes of the Revolution of July, was the
appearance of blank journals. That was what he
complained of—a censorship over that House, which
should not be established through Isis person.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) Then he came to the charge. If he was
right in it, was it not his duty to make it ? The manly
course was to make charges, if he was able to sustain
them. He should be content to have that Honourable
Member, and the Hon. Baronet, this Member for the
Univet sity, as arbitrators in the matter. His charge was
a matter of fact, and if he did not prove it, there was no
concession he would not make. The Reporters had an-
nounced that they would outlaw one of the Members.
Under these circumstances, the House might do what
they pleased with the motion.
Mr. FINN spoke amidst cries of " Question !" He
said that if the Reporters were to decide whether the
speeches of the Hon. Member were to be published or not,
their privileges were a mockery. He had been indebted
to them for some notice of him, and they had sometimes
misrepresented his speeches, but he never called for pu-
nishment upon them. The fact was, the House was too
small, and the accommodation insufficient. They should
be better accommodated. Ile should not vote at all on
this question. He was for getting rid of the absurd privi-
lege now standing on their books. How was it possible
for the House to punish men for not violating its own
orders ? It was not neglect, but misrepresentation, that
he should complain of. Words had been sometimes put
into his nu-11th which lie had never uttered, and words
had been put into the mouths of Hon. Members, as com-
ments on him, when they had never uttered them.
Sir F. BURDETT thought that the present was a very
novel proceeding. He could not but feel regret that the
Hon. and Learned Member had brought forward this
question, for he did not see how lie could do himself
justice, as he termed it, by inducing the House to enter
into a dispute with the newspapers. The Hon. and
Learned Member had brought forward groundless charges
of uttering falsehoods against a body of gentlemen, some
of whom he (Sir Francis Burdett) knew, and could state,
to be as respectable as any .Member of this House.--(Hear,
hear.) It could not be expected that gentlemen would
have patience to endure such treatment, though whether
they had taken a proper course to testify their feelings on
that occasion he was not bound to say. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin had said that the reporters
haul been guilty of wilful misrepresentations. The gentle-
men had replied that they denied the fact. Was the
House to take cognizance then of such a dispute between
the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin and the re-
porters ? If they did they would soon find that they
had involved themselves in difficulties out of which
it would las scarcely possible to extricate them-
selves with consistency and honour. The Press had
often been brought before that House upon much
better grounds than at present existed, and it had
always been found that the House never had the means to
extricate itself with credit, much less to attain the object
it had in view. The House had always found that it had
been involved in a most discreditable kind of a contest.
The only charge that could be heard at the bar of that
House, he apprehended, was for violating the privileges of
the House. On such a charge the House said to the per-
son at the bar, " You have been guilty of violating a stand-
ing order of this House." But this was not compatible
with the fact, that as far as the feelings of the House were
concerned the violation was practised with the understood
concurrence, and according to the intention of the House
itself. What was this but to call men to a technical ac-
count, without any view of entering into the merits or
the demerits of the case ? It was perfectly ridiculous for
the House to waste time in such a proceeding—(Hear)—
and if they were to consider that the feelings of the gen-
tlemen of the press were as much alive to misrepresentation
and abuse by Members of that House, whether such mis-
representations took place in the House or elsewhere, the
folly of proceeding further in the case woul I be manifest
to every body. With respect to the speeches of per
sous being passed over by the reporters, he could
recollect many very important men being so treated,
and for a long time ; but never did any one of them
think it consistent with the dignity of the House, or with
the dignity of themselves, to attempt to drag the House
into a dispute with the reporters on such an occasion.
Mr. Tierney, whose character was so pre-eminent, and the
suppression of whose speeches was such a loss to the pub
lie, was fur a long time not reported. Such had been the
case with Mr. Wyndham ; and not only with reference to
such eminent men, but with respect to all the transactions
of that Hume, it was undoubtedly a great lose to the public

when its proceedings were not reported. But he did not
see how the House, in such a case, could do anything more
than leave the evil to be corrected by the general com-
petition of the press —(Hear, hear.) There was an
abundance of reporters in the gallery. The Hon. and
Learned Member, if he liked, might have a reporter of his
own.—(Laughter.) There were plenty of newspapers,
and those that gave the debates with incorrectness or un-
fairness would soon find that they would forfeit the great
reward of newspapers—the public approbation. For his
part, he could scarcely conceive anything mo.e fair than
the manner in which the debates of that House were ge-
nerally reported. Purposely and intentionally, which was
the charge of the Hon. and Learned Member against the
reporters, to tell falsehoods in the teports of speeches, was
an accusation which he did not believe, when generally
applied ; and it was incompatible with the characters of
some of the reporters whom be knew, but whether it were
so or not, it was a matter utterly out of the jurisdiction
of that House. Anything that the House could do would
be perfectly nugatory, and the House, after its interference,
would be just where it was when it begun.—(Hear.)
Col. EVANS had been informed of a circumstance,
within these few minutes, which he would state to the
Hous.. Perhaps the House might recollect, that a few
evenings ago, he had been caught napping, and •ne of the
evening papers (he did not mention it by way of complaint)
had published a violent letter, exposing the ridiculous way
in which he had been carried in and compelled to vote by
the Speaker against his consent. The paper in question
had represented that his public character was now totally
lost, and that he himself was utterly degraded. If he
pursued the course of the Hen. and Learned Member for
Dublin he should now be very angry, and call on the
House to assert its privileges in his behalf. He looked
upon it, however, without any feelings of auger, and if
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin would only look
on his case with similar good humour, he believed that it
would soon piss over.

Mr. O'CONNELL did not complain of the attacks of
the press ; their tyranny was in the suppression of his
speeches, which he would not submit to.

Mr. AGLIONBY thought that too much importance
had been attached to the question. The privileges of the
press were invaluably important to the country, and he
would never shrink from supporting them; but at the
same time he would never shriek from raising his voice
against its abuses.—(Hear, hear.) If the reporters
avowed a determination to suppress any speeches uttered
in that House, he would put it to the House whether
it would not feel itself bound to visit such conduct
by its interference. He regretted very much that this
motion had ever come forward, but, now that it had been
brought forward, he put it to the House whether the
question could be dismissed as a matter merely personal to
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. He hoped
that the House would look at it with a wider scope, and
would at once grasp the difficulties. The suppression by
the reporters ought not to he treated by the House merely
as a punishment on the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin. If the puldic speeches delivered in that House
concerned the country—if the country were a party con-
cerned in having the debates of that House reported—then,
as reporting was a decided breach of privilege, it could
only be performed by a sort of implied compact with
the Press that the publication should be fair, and free
from all partiality whatever.—(Hear, hear.) When the
Hon. Member for Westminster spoke of the inaccuracies
of the press, he begged to remind him that this was
not a case of inaccuracy, but of total and wilful suppres-
sion. If this had been a mistake he should have been the
last man in that House to make it the subject of severity.
No man in that House or out of the House would more
readily bow to the great difficulties under which the press
laboured with respect to locality, with respect to the diffi-
culties of seeing and hearing, with respect to the difficulties
of selec ing and condensing, and, in abort, with respect to
the innumerable obstacles with which the press had to
contend ; but all this was different from a wilful sup-
pression and a combination or conspiracy to suppress.
He Lad heard that night the simile of the worm
turning. If the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
had done injustice to the reporters of the press, no man,
he hoped, would be more willing to make reparation. If
be would not, he (Mr. Aglionby) would not for one
single moment take the side of the question he was now
taking. Let the worm turn in a proper way and make a
remonstrance to the Hon. Member. The feelings of the
House and country would then be with the reporters.
This was not a personal matter, but one in which the
country was concerned, deeply concerned ; but how the
House was to get out of the matter he did not know.—
(Laughter.) The House bad a privilege which it was
inconvenient to continue, and a dignity which it did not
know how to enforce.
The House the■ divided—
For the Amendment
Against it
Majority
On our re-entering the gallery we found the House
receiving a message from the Lords.

Immediately the Masters in Chancery had retired,
Mr. O'CONNELL exclaimed, I see strangers in the
gallery.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," cheers, and laughter.)
The SPEAKER—Strangers must withdraw.
The gallery was immediately cleared, and the doors
closed.

(We understand that the Hon Member for Worcester,
Mr. ROBINSON, gave notice of a motion for to-morrow
(this day), that the standing order of the House against
the presence of strangrs be suspended.
The gallery remained closed during the remainder of
the sitting.