The Sun.
London, England, 1856-04-11 00:00:00

FRIDAY EVENINds APRIL ll,_ 1686.

t tan§ of the noble lord, and 'stash he balrevel had not put
too far. He confessed that the atatiatios of *the noble lord,
which trenched the accuracy of those quoted by the right
hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) last session; startled him,
and compelled him mentally to exclaim, " Something
must at length bo done ;" for those statistics disclosed
the frightful extent of the moral degradation of the
people of this country. They showed that the land was
totally uncultivated—not that the soil itself was sterile,
but that it needed good moral husbandry, from which,
if timely applied, they might gather a rich, plenteous,
and virtuous harvest. (Cheers.) Was this state of things
truly characteristic of the age ? Let them fix their eyes
steadily upon these facts, and ask how it had come to pass
that they should have existed so long, .and what were the
circumstances which were controlling and pressing upon
them ? Let them look upon the children whom these re-
solutions regarded, and consider them in the benevolent
spirit in which they had been framed. Let them look upon
every individual child, who was an object of these resolu-
tions, as being one of those immortal spirits of which the
State was but an aggregate, and whom the State had been
so guilty in neglecting; and thedlet it sink deep in the
national conscience, so as to compel the Legislature, fro m
a sense of personal as well as national responsibility, to
feel itself bound to establish an act by which it should it-
self become the guardians of those children. But when
the nation seemed at length to be awakened to something
like a sense of its duties in this respect, it was to be told,
it seemed, that it could not rtir a step in the direction of
reclaiming this moral waste, because if it did it would be
ruining and beating down the safeguards of civil and reli-
gions liberty. He asked the house to look at this grand
argument, the stratum of so much unreal opposition—of
much unsubstantial though showy opposition—to these
resolutions. Let the house consider into what a strange
paradox it resolved itself. Our strength was the source of
oar weakness. We were so powerful that we were power-
less. But was it to go forth to the nations of the world
that England, so great, could not educate its own childrer,
and that where power was the greatest the least could be
done? If this were so, it ought not to be so. Let them not
in the 19th century —in these critical and remarkable times
—stultify themselves by converting that noble thing li-
berty into licence, by submitting to an ignominious
tyranny that arrogated to itself the name of freedom.
There could be no language more bitter, no rebuke more
severe and grave, addressed to the Legislature than the
very reasons which had been assigned for its abdi-
cating its authority in this matter, since that
authority was to be seen in constant action, limit-
ing and directing the exercise of the rights of the
subject in whatever course it pleased. The most con-
spicuous feature of modern legislation was its bold
interference session after session, and Parliament after Par-
liament, with those rights which were conceived to be pe-
culiarly transcendent—such as the right of personal liberty,
the right of private property, on which were imposed from
time to time restrictions so severe that they would not be
tolerated in a low state of civilisation. What, he would
ask, was the characteristic of the Encumbered Estates Act ?
(Hear.) Since then there had been a dozen or twenty sta-
tutes which interfered with the liberty of the subject, and
yet when a resolution was aimed at the extirpation of this
moral evil, this cancerous disease, they were roughly told
he might say—with reference to a statement which he sup-
posed had been put into the hands of other members as
well as into his own—they were acrimoniously told that
the noble lord was interfering with the liberty of the sub-
ject. Now, the speech in which the noble lord brought
forward his resolutions required that he should be encoun-
tered with the utmost respect. (Cheers.) The noble lord
did not appear to him, after all the consideration he could
give the matter, to contemplate any violation of the true
liberty of the subject. (Hear.) He would not presume
upon the indulgence which the house usually awarded to
a new member, to say many things that he intended to ex-
press —(cheers)!--but if the house would bear with him, he
wished to say a word or two upon a point upon which
scant justice had been done teethe noble lord. They must
look at the resolutions of the noble lord as a whole, and as
complementary to that which had been done by the friends
of voluntary education. The object of the resolutions was
expressed in the first resolution, that, seeing the want of
education, it behoved the house to extend, revise, and con-
solidate the minutes of the Privy Council on Education.
The noble lord had dealt with the question in a compre-
hensive spirit, and it would be for the home to consider
what should be the extent and mode of action of the ma-
chinery. Where it was deficient let them add to it—
where its action was imperfect let them correct it, but let
not the noble lord be found fault with when he said
that, although he gave every credit to the voluntary
system, there were great patches of ground which that sys-
tem could not reach, and when he called upon the Govern-
ment to exercise its authority in reclaiming and elLtivating
this moral waste. There was nothing more cheering to the
great body of the public which had constituted them its
representatives and the focus of its will and action . han to
see manifested in the discussion of this great question that
holy reverence for religion, without which education was a
bsockery, a delusion, and a snare. It was necessary to re-
spect that liberty which the subject ought not to cease to
enjoy, but let the house do something, let the State remem-
ber its duties, and that those duties included the education
of the people on religious principles. The greatest man who
bad sat in that house for centuries, Edmund Burke, had
shown that the Church and the State in a Christian com-
munity were one and the same thing. being only contiguous
parts of one and the same .whole. Religion was thus seen to
be within the province of the civil magistrate. The State
bad duties which its subjects had a right to expect the per-
formance of, and where the State saw that no education
existed, and that none would exist, it was not only its
right but its bounden duty to interfere. With reference to
the machinery for carrying the bill into effect, he regarded
it with deep anxiety. He did not wish to add to the ob-
stacles by which the noble lord was surrounded and embar-
rassed, but he asked him to reconsider that portion of his
resolutions which referred to the alienation of the pro-
pel ty of charities. (Cheers.) So deeply did be respect the
spirit in which the noble lord had brought forward his reso-
lutions—so much did he appreciate the comprehensive cau-
tion with which the noble lord had dealt with the subject,
that he would not suggest a difficulty unnecessarily. But
he asked the noble lord to reconsider that portion of his
resolutions, and see if he could not dexise some remedy
which was less calculated to mouse feelings of the intensity
of which the house had a sample the other night. He was
very grateful to the house for having listened to him thus
far. (Cheers.) After the powerful and argumentative
speech of the sight hon. gentleman the member for Oxford-
shire (ffr. Henley), he rasa with great hesitation from the
honcho behind that right hon. gentleman. But ho thought
he should ill discharge his duty as an independent mem-
ber if he did not act upon his honest and conscientious
conviction. (Hear.) He trusted that a question so im-
portant would not be determined by an array of ugly
words. (Hear.) Let the noble lord go steadily on, and
he hoped he would realise that picturesque and feeling elo-
quence on which threnoble lord had adverted to the diffi-
culties that surrounded this question. He trusted the
noble lord would not steer his bark against any of those
snaked rocks which had wrecked so many noble vessels,
but that he would calmly stand by the helm, that be
would set his sails and catch the favour.able wind and cur-
rent of public opinion. (Cheers.) Whatever hon. mem-
bers might think of the voluntary system, he trusted that
they would not be deterred by the word compulsory, but
would recognise in the noble lord's resolutions a principle,
not of supercession of the voluntary principle, but a sup-
plement to its deficiencies. They might then use the lan-
guage of Lord Coke—the master of lawyers, as he was
called—and say—" Blessed is he that lays the first stone of
this building ' • more blessed is he that carries it on towards
completion ; but most blessed is he that finishes it
to the honour of God and the glory of His kingdom."
(Loud cheers.)
Mr. EWART sand that the resolutions of the noble lord
did not propose to deal with charitable endowments, but
with educational institutions left by our ancestors for the
benefit of posterity. The noble lord did not wish to divert
these endowments from their legitimate object, but to
restore them to their original purposes. Great good had
been effected by the Commissioners of Charitable Endow-
ments. Parliament had last session passed an act to en-
large their powers, and that act had been attended by the
happiest results, since the commissioners had investigated
3.000 cases, in which applications for investigation had
been made by the trustees. It had been said that our
engineers and labourers in the manufacturing districts
received a kind of passive education in the discharge of
their daily duties, which rendered to a great extent any
other kind of education unnecessary. But one of the
worst symptoms of modern society was the tendency of the
division of labour and the use of machinery to render man
himself a machine, unless this tendency were counteracted
by education. He thought the system of paying for edu-
cation out of the resources of the State had arrived at a
point when they must soon take a very decided course
with regard to it. He had always been a warm advocate
for establishing an educational rate, and he firmly believed
to that consummation they must come at last. The sys-
tem of paying for education out of the Exchequer was so
complicated that its own officers could not understand it.
It reminded him of the lines of Milton—
" With centric and eccentric scribbled o'er

I Ilene* mixture of Independencies /mil obedience to authority
which made the greatness end independence of the Ame-
rican and British names. If the education of the Ameri-
can people had become more and more secular, it had be-
' come so only because the American people had gradually
separated the two elements of religious and secular edu-
cetion. Ile did not think it possible for auy man who ap-
predated the character of the A 0387ican people to point out
I any people amongst whom religious convictions were more
profound, or who acted more upon religious principle.
I (Hoar.) But. yet he did not mean to say that be thought
the American system was applicable to this country of
ours. What was education but the bringing up, under a
thousand influences, of the in ividual child? It was impoe-
sible for them to say that by any system they could pro-
duce a fixed and definite result ; they could only approxi-
mate to what they expected, and there would always be
many counteracting causes. It was, therefore, that he
thought there was a profound philosophical truth in: he
resolutions of his noble friend the member for London,
and he believed his noble friend was perfectly right in en-
deavouring to develop, in the fair and liberal - manner ex-
pressed in his resolutions, the education of the country.
He could not see that these resolutions made it imperative
to impose any given rate at all upon the country. It was
only proposed that, under certain circumstances, if the in-
habitants of any particular district were themselves so im-
pressed that it was notoriously deficient in moral and reli-
gious knowle lge, that they should be permitted to impose
a rate upon themselves. It was surprising the monstrons
deductions that had been made that evening from that
simple fact. He should even think that the scheme pro-
pounded by the inhabitants of Manchester and Salford
ought to have been accepted. (Hear, hear.) He believed
it would have been an experiment coming out of the very
heart of a noble people, and he thought that, in practice,
many difficulties would have disappeared. The noble lord
(Lord R. Cecil) had mentioned a school in which there were
a number of children of different religious denominations,
and they were allowed to be taken away Ilnring the time
of religious instruction ; ho (Mr. Milnes) would ask the
-noble lord if he was aware that where that experiment had
been tried on a very large scale, the effect bad been that,
where the religious services were short and reasonable as
in the prayers of the service of the Church of England, the
number of children withdrawn were infinitesimally small.
He would instance one case, that of the large school at
Birmingham, on going over which the Bishop lof Man-
chester said to him, "Oh ! I wish those gentlemen who
talk so much about religious differences could see how
these difficulties disappear in practice." He (Mr. blilnes),
therefore, wished they would be a little more modest in
their assumptions, and, a little more doubtful as to their
statistics. if the power of imposing rates should be at any
time abused, there was a power in public opinion to cheek
that abuse ; Parliament might at auy time interfere. He
should vote for the resolutions of his noble friend, as he
believed them to be honest, just, and moderate. (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said he believed he was sitting at the
feet of Gamaliel, and he was willing to take lessons of
humility, whether enforced by precept or example. (A
laugh.) He would be moderate in his conclusions from
any statistics he might use, and he had inquired carefully
into their accuracy; and, before he sat down, it would be
his duty to comment on the experience of the hon. member
(Mr. Milnes) as to the benefits resulting from short reli-
gious instructions, and to show that it was neither consis-
tent with the voluntary teaching of religions sects, nor
permanently conducive to the religious or political interests
of the country. In the first place he must premise that
this could not possibly be regarded as a party question.
(Hear.) Now that peace was happily restored to the
people of this country this was the question in which
they took a deeper interest than any other, and one on
which a mistake on the part of that house would be most
fatal to the interests of the people ; and, ho thought they
should best meet the wishes of their constituents in dis-
cussing it without any party considerations and with
moderation and calmness. (sear.) He was glad her Ma-
jesty's Government had not committed itself to any definite
line as to those resolutions. He hoped they would ponder
well and deliberate seriously before they gave to those reso-
lutions their official support. He could not agree with the
hon. member for Midhurat (Mr. Warren) in everything
which he had said, especially to the voluntary efforts of
the Dissenters, and he was surprised at the conclusion at
which that hon. gentleman had arrived, that iu supporting
those resolutions he should not be interfering with those
voluntary efforts. (Hear, hear.) He also used an expres-
sion to show the extent to which he was prepared to go iu
support of the resolution of the noble lord for compelling
the children to come in and be educated, and he said, also,
that it was a moral compulsion. Now, the great objection
which he (Sir J. Graham) took to the 'violation was, that
it proposed, not a compulsion of moral suasion, but a legal
one—(hear)—both on the employers of labour and on the
employed. Again, he said, quoting, perhapsnot correctly,
the words of the hon. gentleman, how disgraceful it was
that England, with her free institutions, could not educate
her people. Now he (Sir J. Graham) was prepared to-show
that England, in consequence of having free institutions,
was educating her people progressively; and his great objec-
tion to these resolut one was that they were contrary to the
principles of liberty, and would most materiallyimpede the
course of those free institutions under which our people were •
being so educated. The hon. and learned gentleman justified
the exceptive legislation contemplated in the resolutions on
the precedent which Parliament had set in passing the act
for the sale of encumbered estates in Ireland, but he alto-
gether denied the application of that precedent, and he
denied that the people of England wet a arrived at that state
of things in reference to education which, prevailing in
Ireland in regard to landed property, justified the passing
of the act referred to. The hon. and learned gentleman,
however, said that he (Sir J. Graham) Leg, eeci with him
that these resolutions were to be taken as a whole. Now,
speaking of them as ,a whole, it was his opinion that, in-
stead of these resolutions producing that gradual develop
merit of progressive education, so much desired by the hon.
member for Pontefract, he looked upon them as a most
headlong step in advance. He spoke with respect—with un•
feigned respect—of his noble friend the member for Lon-
don. Ho could not forget—history would remember what
had teen his successful labours to improve legislation, and
to promote civil and religious liberty. He remembered
that it was to the noble lord they owed the repeal of the
Test ale.l Corporation Act. He remembered all he had done
for the emancipation of the Roman Catholics. He also re-
membered the labours of his noble friend in the introduc-
tion of the poor law into England and afterwards into Ire-
land. He remembered also tho constant support he had.
given to the introduction of national education into Ire-
land—a benefit not less than the greatest which the Legis-
lature had conferred on that country. But, above all, he
had a satisfaction in seeing his noble friend yesterday, al-
though stripped of all official power, do battle in defence
of the great principle that no difference of creed should
operate as an exclusion from the fullest and fairest enjoy-
ment of those rights which were the property of every citi-
zen while liberty remained in this happy laud. These were
some of the services which his noble friend had rendered
to the cause of liberty, and for them he felt deeply grate-
ful to hie,' and he could never forget them, but yet he
must say that he eiffered from some of the opinions of his
noble friend on this subject. and he Si'euld preface what
he had to say on this question with ofie 'Observation. They
were called on to discuss eduCation in' England, and that
the question of education in England was to lie kept quite
distinct from education in Scotland or in Ireland, because,
unhappily, in England they were divided into sects almost
innumerable, while in Scotland nine-tenths of the popula-
tion were united iu one creed, and that one circumstance
gave facilities for higislating on education which they were
altogether in want of in England. Then, with respect to
p or
of
atoleheo pd Ireland,rtoo-
T The
io n
atahne
cc iartchuoml
isotsa nces
constituted sv e re also a
the
l t
go
rgeeat
th, e rt n
e different.
over-
whelming
pro-
vinces, pr populationovinn e i
tnh
etyh raepe
while majority
in th e ofth the
northern
an equality in numbers with the Presbyterians. But
throughout the four provinces the members of the Esta-
blished Church seemed to be in a minority. It would be
wrong for him to carry this point farther ; but he begged
it to be understood that in arguing this question they were
arguing the question of education in England alone. In
the absence of all party condderatiou on this question he
trusted he would be allowed to give his opinion with all
the freedom he would use if sitting upon a committee up
stairs, or if he were at the council table elsewhere. He, in
the first place, objected to the form of the present proceed-
ing as unusual in Parliament, and inexpedient tobe brought
into use. The course which they were invited to take was
exactly the reverse of that in the case of a bill. It was a
proceeding which began with details and ended with the
assertion of principles, and the jumble of both was such ;as
to produce the greatest confusion, and involved great dan-
ger. Now, in the case of a bill, they began with principles,
and when the 'house sanctioned those principles by the
second reading, they then went istie the details in commit-
tee. He farther objected that some of those resolutions
were superfluous, and being superfluous, they were calcu-
lated to excite suspicion, so that he could not see why they
should be asked to conform in a manner by which they
would use all the advantage of past usage. Now, he
wished to say that he was far from negativing thenecessity
for legislation bearing on education. He was of opinion
with the hon. member for Staffordshire (Mr. Adcierley)
that the question of education, as baring on prison
discipline, and on the juvenile criminal population, was
one which came most properly within the scope of legis-
lation, and he thought the time was come when in the
case of children who were under proper parental con-
trol the greatest power should be given for reformatory
purposes ; neither was he prepared to say that the Chari-
table Commissioners might not produce a bill with a just
and equitable regard to property, and which might
vary the application of charitable trusts in cases where,
from change of habits, or other causes, tl • e trusts had be-
come inapplicable ; but all that must be done with the
greatest caution. As his noble friend was a memberof that
commission, he should gladly receive any measure for that
purpose which might be recommended as the deliberate
opinion of that commission. He himself had had the honour
in former times of recommending legislative interference
with the education of paupers, by which the children were
removed from the' ordinary workhouses and provided, in a
central school, with the moans of obtaining a better educa-
tion than they could get in them. With the permission of
the house he would now briefly review the resolutions, and
do so as summarily as he could. The first was that, in the
opinion of this house, it was expedient to extend, revise,
and consolidate the minutes of the Privy Council on Edu-
cation. He could not deny that it was expedient to revise
and consolidate these minutes, seeing they now occupied
20 volumes ,- but the important word in the resolution
was the word "extend " We had now a Minister of Edu-
cation, who was a confidential servant of the Crown, and if
that Minister was of opinion that any extension was neces-
sary, it would be his duty to lay before the house the mea-
sure and
constitutional to
take
the s
sense of ohficthhe house
manner, when they would have to suggest such alterations
and amendments as they thought proper; but by this reso-
lution power would be given to what might be called a Se-
cond Minister of Education to extend any system be thought
proper, without the exercise of the controlling power of the
Legislature. On the next resolution he woulte not add a word
to what had fallen from theright hon.gentleman the member
for Oxfordshire, but he had not yet heard any reason assigned
for the appointment of 80 inspectors. If, however, it were
necessary to increase the number of inspectors, the Council
of Education had the power to propose it, and to call on
the house inthe ordinary way to supply means for doing so.
The same observations applied to the third resolution with
respect to the sub-inspectors of the schools of Wesleyans,
and of other sects. With respect to the fourth recoluton,
which gave power to the Committee of Council to form
school districts, it was a complete abolition of the paro-
chial systs m, and introduced a new boundary, distinct from
either that of the parish or of the union. The fifth reso-
lution was unnecessary, as it was at present the duty of
the sub-inspectors to make such reports. The sixth he
L should pass by, as it was that which had given rise to a
considerable part of this debate, an - bow it found its way
• into the resolutions was to him a wond,r. The seventh
• stated that it was expedient that in any school district
i
whore the means of education from various sources should
; be found deficient, and declared to be so by the Committee

Cycle and epicycle, orb in orb."
Re was in favour of uniting to the plan of an educational
rate the present system of centralisation, so as to combine
perfect freedom of adsion with perfect responsibility to Par-
liament by means of a Minister of Education. He con-
curred with the noble lord in many of his resolutions. He
believed that every discussion advanced the object they
had in view, and he would conclude by impressing on the
house the words of Milton—" The nation that neglects the
education of the people deserves to be eternally benighted."
Lard R. CECIL thought that a local rate on behalf of
edudation would be neither just nor practicable. If local
rating were ibstituted it would inevitably dry up all the'
voluntary principle of the country. It might be thought,
unreasonable that this should be so, but assuredly they
must make up their minds for that result. It had been said
that education was a national duty, but if that were so, it
was a duty which ought to be discharged by the whole of
the nation. But who were those upon whom the rate
would fall? Why, only upon about one-half of the popula-
tion of the country. The funded property of persons would
escape from the tax. Mining property would be excused
from contributing its fair share, as would also shipping,
which principally supported many seaport towns. The
enormous wealth of London would also be excused from
,contributing to an educational rate. More than one-half
of the property of the country would, as proposed by the
resolutions, be excused from paying a rate. He considered
that, if the whole country would be benefited by national
education, the wholo'of the nation ought to pay the rate.
With regard to the proposition of the right hon. baronet the
member for Droitwich, that he would have a distinctive
form of religion, but excuse those children whose parents
might object to it, he had a great objection. To allow each
set of ratepayers to select that form of religion which each
Treferred would, he believed, result in absolute infidelity.
he people would naturally suppose that the Legislature
did not believe more in one form than another, and that
would lead to infidelity. In a report recently presented to
the house, it was stated that in a school in Wales the
inspector toned 5 members of the Church of England, 24
Baptists, 37 Independents, 4 Methodists, 1 Reformer, 3
Unitarians, 13 Mormonites, and 13 children of no denomi-
nation at all. (Laughter.) The house would observe that
in this school there were children the religion of whose
parents were diametrically opposed to each other. He be-
believed it was an unjust way, that of rating, of raising
funds, and it would lead to a compulsory education of the
people, and, above all, that it led to a tampering with their
religious belief, and ended with rendering the children in-
capable of any religious feeling at all. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. MILNES hoped they might be able to approach
this question in a spirit of a little more humility and a
little less confidence as to the character of the people
amongst whom they lived. He did not think that, in
looking into futurity, they could say what would be the
effect of this or that application of the noble lord's measure,
or of any other measure. He owned his experience brought
him to the conclusion that induced him to believe they
must go on experimentally and without reference to foreign
c •untries. Foreign countries differed from us not only in
their domestic manners, but also in their political remain •
brances and their political history. They must look, there-
fore, to their great sister State, America ; for there only
eziated the soiree foundation of national character—that

THE N, LONDO N,

of Comte), the ratepayers should have the power of taxing beard acrd billiard tables, (near, and a laugh.) For the
themselves fur the oroetiou and maintenance of schools. purpose of adeomplishing some speenlativeimpeovements of
Now he begged the house to mask that the taxing power in that kind, they were called upon to double the poor rate
that resolution was vested in the ratepayers, and that it and the county rate, and they, were b expect that the far-
re-enacted all the evils for a school rate of which they corn- niers of England would continue to employ plough boys,
p 1 tined in a Church rate. The eighth resolution gave power, who were to be educated at this enormous cost. His third
after the Ist of January, 1858, to the Quarter Sessions to objection to the measure was that, it, would defeat itself.
impose a school rate for the county, city, or borough in Next, he believed that it would be fatal to industry, but
which the moans of education for the poor might be de- after what he had said he need not expand that point. But
Glared to be deficient. He had read that resolution
,20 double eompuleion would be necessary. They mightcompel
times without being able to understand whether the Quar- , the employer to educate; but they would have a far more
ter_ Sessions were to exercise a- Ministerial or a discre- ' difficult task to perform—they would have to compel the
tionary power; tat no matter which was intended, he wan.; employed to be ediscated. They would make the whole
quite sure that there was no body less suited to exercise system odious to the people of this country. Now many
such power ; and he understood that the hon-baronet, the children were attracted to Sunday schools by We honest
member f.e- Droitwich, who was himself a Chairman of zeal of their employers. It had been well said by the right
Quarter Sessions, felt this so strongly that he intended to hon. gentleman (Hr. Henley) that the people of this coun-
move an amendment to the proposition. The ninth reso- try were not to be driven. Pains and penalties would never
lution laid it down, that the school committee was to ap- educate the people. It would, indeed, be au evil hour whets
point the schoolmaster and schoolmistress, and form rules I Parliament should venture to make so perilous an attempt.
for the government of the school. Now all who had at ail He said that the measure was foanded upon no sound prin-
attended to education, knew that it had passed into an I ciple. It was based upon a principle of Government mono-
axiom that the schoolmaster or schoolmistress was, in fact,. poly, and would destroy the free competition of labour.
the school, so that it was by no means desirable that they jHe would illustrate the danger of this course. He would
should be interfered with in the conduct of their schools. It illustrate it, both by the experience derived from foreign
was also evident that if they gave the committee such power I countries, and by the effect of the operation of the opposite
they would elect teachers of their own creed, and make the principle in our own, through the medium of voluntary
school regulations in conformity with their own opinions ; associations. He must replied the house that he claimed
and he thought that, if they agreed to the resolution, the no merit whatever for the use of the main part of the argu-
short experience they would have of its working before the mesas and facts which ho had stated. He had mentioned
18th January, 1858, when the taxing power was to cow- j the sources from which he had drawn them. He believed
merle°, would teach the house that they had come to a- rash Vidal to be pure an -I undeniable, and until they were die-
decision. The 10th resolution provided that the Holy Scrip- placed, he should suffer his conclusions to rest upon them.
tures should be read in the schools, and that was doubtless They had been told of the effect of Government inter-
the short and reasonable religious education to which the ference in foreign countries, lie would on this subject
hon. member from Pontefract had alluded. (Laughter.) read a passage from Mr. Laing's work on Norway and the
Now, the resolution was so ambiguously worded that ho Duchies. He said, "It was true that in education the sup-
could not ascertain whether the reading of the Holy Scrip- ply followed the demand, as in other markets of labour,
tures was to be part of the school lesson or part of the and that the people would always educate themseWes or
school teaching. (Hear.) If it was to be part of the school I find education for themselves up les the demand and ne.
lesson, it amounted, as the noble lord the member for cessity for knowledge and educated labour amonast them,
Stamford (Lord R. Cecil) had remarked, to genera religi- and that the forced supply of learning or educated labour
ous instruction ; and if it was not to be a part of the school- beyond that which the social state of the country required
lesson, then they were at once arrived at secular instruc- aod could fuly and completely use and employ, was alto-
Lion. The hon. gentleman the member for Manchester bad gather as opposed to the principles of social economy as a
laid down an axiom in which he (Sir J. Graham) fully con- forced supply of other labour by Government inter-
curred, that with a compulsory rate no other scheme of ference in the labour market. The result in Germany, of
education but a secular one was possible; and he thought giving a monopoly of education to Governmental boards
that they had better go the length of adopting such a sys- and allowing none but licensed teachers to instruct the
tern than establish one in which they would have many of _people, was to create a power in the State not exceeded by
its evils without any of its advantages. The 11th resolu- that exercised by the Roman Catholic clergy in the middle
tion was, that the employers of young children should be ages.. In 1818 this class of teachers shook every continen-
reqaired to furnish certificates, half-yearly, of the attend- tal throne by the effects of their social power and inter-
:Luce at school of children in their employment. He had ference, and by the false education which they had been
heard legal questions raised as to the effect, of the word forced to impart." (Hear.) , That course_ stood out in
" may ;" he had heard an opinion expressed respecting the i broad contrast to that pursued by the Governments
•
word might ;" but never had he seen the word "should'' whether of Austria or Prussia. He told the house he
so frequently used-as in these resolutions • and whether it would illustrate this by analogies of a contrary kind in
was imperative or permissive he could noepositively make our own country.- Be took the following facts from Mr.
up his mind. (Hear and laughter.) If it were imperative, Baines's pamphlet. In the census which was taken in
then, indeed, was Sir Robert Walpole's scheme of intro- 1801 the number of sittings in churches and chapels was
clueing excise into every family carried out to the fullest 5,171,000. In the year tan the number of sittings was
extent ; for, to ascertain whether every plough-boy had 10,212,000. Only 188,000 of these sittings were provided
been to school, they would have to visit every employer, with any help from Parliament; 4,852,000 had been pro•
and call him to account; and the interference would he videa by voluntary system. The rate of those provided
constant, and irritative in the la,t degree. (Hear, hear.) by the voluntary system to the others was as 96 per cent.
And if they sought to make education odious—(bear, hear) to 4 per cent. The State granted 1,033,0001 e and the vol-
-throughout the land, that was the plan for doing so. untary 1 rinciple contributed only 22,4001. These were the
(near, hear.) Then, with regard to the encouragement to facts. The hon. and learned member for Midhurst begged
be given by prizes, by libraries, and certificatek and every them not to overlook the statistics of this question. These
other proper means, without the least notice what was statistics had now been produced they had been thrown
meant, he had not the slightest objection to any definite before that assembly in order that they might have the
proposal for encouraging the children. It was the duty proper effect ;if they had not, he entreated the house to
of the Couucil of Education now, under the votes already allow them to have that effect which they ought to pro-
made by that house, to favour the extension of the educe- auce. —His (Sir J. Graham's) last objection was that the

measure was unsound in piincipla. 11e now said that it
was dangerous in operation—constitutionally dangerous in
principle. There was great difficulty in adopting the mea-
sure of the noble lord the member for London, and he
thought hie last views is support of education were op-
posed to some of those constitutional principles which he
(Sir J. Graham) had learnt to espouse iu that house. It
was proposed to have 80 inspectors, 80 au-inspectors, some
34,000 or 35,009 schoolmasters, and all the ramifications of
the influence which such a scheme could not fail to possess.
The patronage was enormous ; that in itself was a very
great objection. There was—to use a French word, which
he was not able to translate—a surveillance —an inspection
—a watching—a prying—of these Government setvants—
(bear)—which would be intolerable. There was a power
of inquiry like that of Sir ' Robert Walpole's scheme
to be carried into every part of the house. Every boy under
18 years of ago was to be ezetniued. This was most admir-
able; (Hear.) His hon. friend the Secretary for the
Treasury slumbered. (Load cheers, and Mr. Wilson rose
and bowed.) If this machinery of inspectors, sub-inspectors,
and schoolmasters were to come into full operation, flesh
and blood would not be able to stand it. (Cheers.) The use
and abuse of a machinery such as this would be monstrous.
His hen. friend would not slumber then, (Cheers and
laughter.) A scheme such as was now proposed with the
best motives would ee prostituted to the worst of possible
objects. (Hear.) The liberties of England—the boasted
liberties of England—which they were now asked to 81113.
pend for a legitimate purpose, might be degraded into the
most impure and fatal channels, destructive to the freedom
of our country. (Hear.) He had already said that he re-
garded this as a new Church rate. A bare majority might
impose a tax upon a large minority. Dr. Candlish, who
was a Dissenter, and a man of genius, said that the whole
success of a school depended upon the schoolmaster. Some
bare majority that. had imposed a rate might choose a school-
master for the put peso of religious teaching. All the 84
sects of the parish would immediately be iu arms against
him. (Hear.) If a Dissenter were chosen the Churchman
would be seriously aggrieved. (Hear.) So far from bring-
ing peace, this measure would be a sword in every parish
--(cheers)—and whilst they had with difficulty extin-
guished a ft ime by the abolition of Church rates, they were
about to kindle a flame that would be felt iu every house-
hold. (Cheers.) The rate to be proposed was to comprise
purely secular education. The right hon. baronet the mem-
ber for Droitwitch said he wished he could find some
middle ground-eke said he wished there was some middle
ground upon which Dissenters and churchmen might
meet. He said that, remembering only the points upon
which they agreed, and forgetting those upon which they
difeeted—(cheers)—and, as far as his (Sir J. Graham's)
experience went, the more minute the difference,
the snare intense the feeling. (Hoar, hear.) They
might regret it, but such was the fact. This
plan of the right hon. baronet was happily termed by Mr.
Baines the neutralisation of the Black Sea of religious
teaching. (Hear, hear.) That was a very happy expres-
sion, and he (Sir J. Graham) would most gladly adopt it.
(Hear, hear.) Then let them embark upon that sea ; they
were not without a compass ; they were not without expo- .
rieuce in this matter. He would deal first with the pro-
visions of that house—he had a very strong feeling on the
matter—and they should learn what was the effect of this
model course in foreign countries. He would read what
M. Guizot said about the theory of these:grants. He said
that the attempt to secure to the followers of different
creeds the reality of religious instruction sufficient for the
subject, and such as wood apply to all religions, had
neither answered the expectations of families nor complied
with the conditions of Use law. The attempt to establish
religious instruction in the school which would setisfy all
persons was only vague and illusory. On the highest
authority, he said that children valued instruction only in
proportion to the time and attention that was bestowed
upon it. He (Sir J. Graham) would cite a report which
had been quoted by Sir R. Peal. He would not only read
the passage, but also his comments upon it, which might
be received with the highest I 'spout. It was the second
report issued 'by the Massachussats Board of Education,
and was dated at Boston. It stated that, in the report of
last year, the writer expressed- the alarming deficiency of
moral and religious instruction in their schools. That
deficiency in religious instruction was only to be explained
by supposing that the committee to whom the task had
been assigned had not found any books at once expository
of doctrine and free from discussion which fitted them to be
means of religious instruction. Hence ho was bound to ex.
elude such books, though it was but fair to add he would
have been vary glad to introduce them. Upon this report
Sir R. Peel said—this was a system which did not exclude
the Scriptures (exactly what the noble lord proposed to
do). Although the scriptures were to be read, they were
not to be taught upon the principles of any Church, pro-
vided they were used for the purposes of education, leav-
ing it to the teachers of religion to inculcate the doctrines—
Lord J. RUSSELL—No, no; quite the reverse.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was sorry to trouble the house
at such length, bat this was a matter of authority and evi-
dence. Chevalier Bunsen, who had the advantage of a
knowledge of the systems of Prussia combined with that of
England, in a work which he had lately published, stated
that his experience had convinced him that the system of
centralisation was incorrectly applied in the education of
the people ; that the necessary operation of that system was
to keep the people iu a perpetual state of tutelage, and
that it was opposed Co that independent life which natu-
rally belonged to every Christian congregation ; that, upon
his return to his own country, after 14 years' absence in
England, he compared his then impressiond with those
with which he had left Germany, and the conclusion he
had come to was that the principle of voluntary association
had been, up to a late time, very active in England, and
that the root of every greaemovement, and its successful
working, were to be sought in that great principle. (Hear.)
He (M. Bunsen) illustrated that by referring to the origin
and growth of our Indian Empire ; to the operations of the
pilgrim fathers, and by the growth and union of Upper and
Lower Canada. He (M. Bunsen) further stated that during
the last century more churches and chapels had sprung up
under this system than all the Governments that had
been able to erect. Such was the !deliberate opinion of
M. Bunsen, his conclusion, drawn from 14 years' experience,
being that the voluntary system was the only true and safe
principle. (Hear.) Now, with regard to education, they
were asked to-night to set that system on one side. He (Sir
J. Grahat) had another objection to these resolutions.
They were neither hot nor cold—they were neither religious
nor secular. Religion, after all, was the mainspring and sup-
I port of the voluntary system. (Cheers.) It was the religious
zeal of the different sects which urged them to give their la-
hour and money for educational purposes in the schools of
their denominations. Religion was the life-blood of their
association. (Cheers.) Their differences might be great,
and their resentment to the Established Church often more
powerful than might be wished, but the great body of Dis-
seeters in England formed, undoubtedly, amongat them-
selves Christian bodies, and their religious zeal manifested
itself day by day in making provision for the education of
their children. (Hear, hear.) But these resolutions sought
to introduce into the schools' the religious principle-in a
covert manner. He would illustrate what he thought the
extreme danger of this measure. The majority of Fate
payers would constantly vary. One year the majority
might be in favour of the Established Church, the next
year it might be with the Dissenters, and the third year
with the Roman Catholics. According to the majority so
would the election of schoolmasters be. The schoolmaster
would thus be constantly changing, and the religious teach-
ing would of. necessity change with him, and be affected
thereby. If the system were wholly secular, the discord
he was about to allude to would not arise. But, because
it was not se—and a majority even of one would decide
the election of schoolmaster, and thus affect the tendency
of both the religious and secular teaching in the school—
for one could hardly be affected without the other—much
angry and bitter feeling must almost of necessity arise,
urged on by the knowledge of injustice -which, in the people
of England, might lead to results which he (Sir J. Graham)
was afraid to contemplate—results of a disastrous character,
if not of actual tumults. Having already so long trespassed
on the attention of the house, he would net enter into the
general topics connected with this question, which had
been so often discussed in that house, and by none better
than by the noble lord the member for the City of London
—that secular education got based upon religious doctrine
and instruction was not conducive to Bound morality, or
the real interests of the State. Remember the Divine an
thority that said that the love of God was the first of the
great commandments, and that the love of our neighbours
was like unto it, for that upon those two commandments
hang all the law and the prophets—our happiness here,
our hopes hereafter—
(eheees)—and this committee he (Sir
, J. Graham) felt persuaded would pause before, by any
hasty decision, they violated that great precept, and de-
prived the peopleof England of the inestimable advantages

tion of the people by such means. Any legislation, there-
fore, for such last resolution was superfluous. Although
the hon. and learned member for Midhurst (Mr. Warren)
begged that they would not go into statistics, but deal
with principles; and though his hon. friend the member
for Pontefract had recommended him to be modest in his
references to matters of that kind, still truth was invalu-
able—(hear, hear)—truth could only be ascertained by re-
ference to those statistics—(" Hear, hear," by Sir J. Pak-
ington)—aud if the right hon. 'baronet the member for
Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington) cheered, he would have the
opportunity of following and combating those statistics.
To the best of his knowledge he would be accurate, and
quote authority for the statistics that he gave. The statis-
tics and many.of the arguments which it would be his duty
to advance were not his own. Something disparaging had
been said with regard to pamphlets. He should not have
investigatedthis subject satisfactorily to his own mind, and
ho should not have arrived at the conclusion to which he
had come, but for two pamphlets which had been published
within the last week. He well remembered the father—the
honoured father of one of those pamphleteers. He sat in
that house; he had risen by his' honest industry to the
place Which he occupied us the representative of the most
important, portion of the constituency where ho was born
and bred—he alluded to Mr. Baines. (Cheers.) His son was
on the Treasury bench at the present time; he had been
tried and not found wanting P • and his brother, the pam-
phleteer, was not inferior to him in abilities, or less worthy
of their approbation. (Cheers.) The other was Mr. Unwin;
and none were more worthy of their attention and eonsiderae
tion those two pamphleteers; and their pamphlets con-
tained arguments and facts which, to his mind, were irre-
sistible, and had led him to the conclusion at which he
had arrived. He did not pretend to try novelty in argu-
ment, much less to novelty, in facts ; those facts had al-
ready been brought before the house; they remained un-
controverted, and he believed them to be incontrovertible.
His objection to the scheme was that it, was unnecessary.
tie contended, in the strongest manner, that there was no
country in Europe, within the last 25 year?, in which the
progress in education had been so rapid and satisfactory as
in England. His hon. friend the member for Pontefract
had made allusion to the year 1818. Austria stood high in
regard to education, Prussia stood high in regard to edu-
cation • -but what were the scenes at Vienna? what were
the scenes in Berlin in 1318? What was the proud con-
trast iu England, prosecuted on the voluntary system, as
he hoped it would continue ? He had said that the num-
ber of schools was rapidly and progressively increasing.
He would call attention to facts which he contended could
not be answered, and which were drawn from sources,
as' he believed, fair and undoubted, and which it would
be for the right hon. gentleman the member for Droit-
wick (Sir J. Pakington), if he did him the honour to fol-
low him, to deal with. As regarded the day schools—in
England, in 1818, there were 674,000 day scholars, or one
in 17 of the population ; in 1853 they had risen to
1,276,000, or one in 11; and in 1851 they had risen
to 2,144,000, or 1 in 8 of the population. And what was
the state of the Sunday schools ? In 1818 the scholars at-
tending the Sunday schools were 477,000, or 1 in 24 of the
population ; in 1833, 1,548,000, or 1 in 9; in 1851,
2,407,000, or 1 iu 7 of the whole population. He would now
shortly read to the house the state of education under the
continental system, with the most rigid Governmental in-
terference. In Prussia, where the Governmental inter-
ference was most rigid and stringent, the proportion was 1
in 6 of the population; in Holland, 1 in 7; in Bavaria, 1
in 8 ; in Austria, 1 in 10; in France, 1 in 10; in Belgium,
1 in 10'; in Sweden, 1 in 11; so that despised and ma-
ligned England was espial to all of these countries, with
the exception of Prussia, in the proportion of the popula-
tion receiving education. And now with respect to the
number of teachers. In the English clay schools, 'at the
census of 1851, the number was 94,878; in the Sunday
schools, 318,000 ; so that the number of teachers in Eng-
land amounted to 413,000, or 1 in 43 of the whole popula-
tidn, or 1. in 10 of the number'of children; and yet in the
face of all this the right hon. member for Droitwich (Sir
J. Pakington) stated last year that we could not go on as
we were—that the voluntary system had broken down—
that it was harassing and vexatious, as Mr. Kennedy, the
school inspector said, and that the only legitimate mode in
which they could provide for the education of the people
was by calling on the people to provide a rate. That was
the first germ of the compulsory principle. He entirely
concurred with what had been stated by the hon. member
for Northumberland-(Mr. Liddell), that the inducements
offered in this country for the improvement Of education
were strong beyond measure. He was sorry that the house
was not full when the hon. member spoke, and he '(Sir J.'
Graham) would only repeat the arguments which he (Mr.
Liddell) had urged. All the railroad companies—all the
scientific bodies—were daily more and more anxious to ob-
tain skilled labour. The premium upon education was
higher and higher. The wisest policy had been pursued by
opening the public offices to public competition, and the
success of the system was stated by the President of the
Board of Trade to have been all thst could be desired. The
most valuable appointments in our Indian empire had been
opened to the competition of the middle classes, and the
greatest inducements which the State could offer, without
State interference, had been offered to stimulate the people
to exertion in the path of education. It was also worthy
of consideration, now that admission to all the humbler
publio offices had been made subject to examination—
now that 16,000 or 17,000 of those offices had been
thrown open to public competition—whether without
any educational rate or any compulsory system, the State
should not provide, the best means of education to fit men
for those offices? (Hear.) His next objection was that
'this was a most expensive and prodigal plan. Its effect
would be that all
.voluntary contributions would cease.
(Hear.) Everything must be done by the Government,
and everything must be paid by the Government, except
just what the rate would yield. The school pence would
cease. The right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich
(Sir John Pakington) said that theschooling should be free,
whilst the noble lord (Lord J. Russell) said that the school
pence should be retained, though much lessened in amount.
They might rely upon it that the school pence would cease
—that there would be no contributions on the part of the
parents, for they would not be both taxed and contribute
voluntarily. He did not believe that the noble lord could
correctly estimate the cost of his plan at less than 6,000,0001.
per annum. Mr. Unwin had given an estimate. He stated,
taking the number of children to be taught at 2,600,000 at
18s. a-head, the expense would be 3,240,0001., the noble
is-rd's estimate.; but here Mr. Unwin convicted the noble
laid of a great omission. He pointed out that the noble
lord had omitted the 10s. per head now contributed by the
Government out of the educational grant. That sum would
raise the expense to 28s. per head, and adding charges for
repairs of schoolhouses, the expenses of inspection, and of
training institutions, the total would be not less than
6,3/.1,000). (Hear.) The estimate of Mr. Baines was, that
the noble lord's plan would cost n,580,0001. per annum.
Thus, according to either estimate, the cost would be equal
wa
to the poor rate and the
with
yrt oratfeoc, broughtfeEegland
rd
the catakenfor
to-
gether. (Hear.) Some time ago the right hon. member
for
r Buckinghamshire,
okiVthhaenlosca hirle wh ea
burdens affecting land, in the. hope
that on principles of equity those burdens might be re-
duced ; and now, by a resolution in a single night's
debate, the house was asked, so far from diminishing
the burdens upon land, by a stroke of the pen, by one
breath of voice, to double ,the' amount ‘of the poor
rate and of the county rate affeeting land. It would be
for the right hon. gentleman to consider that proposition,
and to endeavour to reconcile it with the interests of 'the
landed interest,. (Hear.) He (Sir J. Graham's) next ob-
jection to this measure was that it was incomplete. He
said that, without further compulsion, it would diminish
education. In the first place, children under 15 years of
age would no longer be employed. No farmer, if he could
obtain women to hoe his turnips instead of boys, would
ever think of employing boys, with ail the odious chances
of the school inspector coming round to look overhis books
to see whether the boy had been regularly sent to school.
The farmer would naturally say—" Away with such in-
yle Imabeor,
me." (near.)
no
r bo
Ho
But
would become of the wages of these boys?
b fe
e e malem p]. o re
di ba
thought that their wages would be found to amount to one-
supne cd
et ir* olns—yle
awr 151 ls
h haveaall
fourth of the wages earned by their fathers, and yet the
latter were to be called upon not only to pay this rate, but
to sacrifice one•fottrth of the earnings of their families.
Such a system would spread confusion and dissatisfaction
throughout the whole of the rural population of thisnoun-
try. It was well affected now, though at times it has been
' sorely trie I, and they had had recently the advantage of
their fidelity and loyalty. He had shown that the _people
were not indifferently educated, and that there was no pre-
' text for saying that a more extended education was luxes-
nary—such a system as that which the right hon. member
(ilr. Henley) had alluded to, comprising backgammon

Berkshire, where dootrinal teaching is carried on, anti
where the conscience of Dissenters is respected. This I be-
hewe to be the true solution of the difficulty—a solution
which may be safely adopted by this country, and which
will enable us to impose a rate without being open to the
objection to which the right hon. baronet •has referred.
Again, there are France and Switzerland, in both of which
the religious difficulty is overcome. In the sextons of
Switzerland this plan is adopted :--In the Roman Catholic
cantons the Protestant children are admitted into tie schools
withent forcing their consciences in matters of religion; and
vice versa, in the" Protestant cantons the Roman Catolic
children are admitted in like manner, without having their
consciences forced ; and this I believe to be a conclusive
and satisfactory answer to the objection of the right hen.•
baronet. I must say, too, that I equally dissent from the
objection which has been rel.:Ad by my right hon. friend
near me (&tr. Henley), and by the right hon. baronet, and
which I have no doubt we shall again hear in these debates
—namely, that if you impose a school rate, you will be
reviving and aggravating all the evils of Church rates.
This, again, is a mere matter of opinion, and there is hardly
an opinion which can be advanced less capable of being
supported by argument. It appears to me that the two
rates alluded to—the church rata and,the school rate--are
essentially distinct and different. What is the objection of
the Dissenters to Church rates? I say not whether it be
well or ill founded; but I take his objection to be that he
is called on to pay a rate for the support of a Church from
which lie derives no benefit. What would be the case with
the school rate ? Why, that the Dissenter would be called
upon to pay a rate in return for which his children would
have the benefit of the education given in the schools. The
cases appear to me, then, to be exactly opposite. (Hear.) I
have now gone though the criticisms of the right hon.
baronet upon thd noble lord's resolution, and I must say
that I think his criticism and those of my right hon. Mend
(Mr. Henley) were criticisms rather too much in detail.
They treated the resolutions more as if they were clauses
of a bill than as merely intending to lay down broad prin-
ciples for future action. I tbiuk, therefore, that the right
hon. baronet hardly met the resolutions of the noble lord
in the spirit to which the noble lord's exertions on this
subject are entitled. (Hear.) With the permission of the
house I will now proceed to deal with the most important
statement advanced by the right baronet, and in reference
to which I beg respectfully, but confidently, to express
'my opinion that his views are not supported by facts. I
allude to the expression he used, that England is educated.
Sir, I say that England is not educated—(hear, hear)
that the state of England in this respect is not satisfactory
—(hear, hear)—that our advance, such as it is, does not
bear any proportion to the necessities of the case, and
that if Parliament does its duty by the country it cannot
leave the matter to rest where it is." Now the future action
of Parliament on this subject must turn upon the truth. It
must turn upon the question whether the right hon. baro-
net is right when he says that England is educated, or
whether I am right when I say that England is not edu-
cated. I say, that upon this broad question fairly raised be-
tween us must turn the question wnetheror notthis matter
can rest where it is, or whether, whatever the decision of
this or next year may be, it will not be theparamount duty
of Parliament to provide some conciliatory system. 1-10
not wish to displace the voluntary system, or underrate or
undervalue the exertions hitherto made, but I say that that'
system is insufficient, and by itself it cannot educate the
people, and that some auxiliary system must be adopted. The
first proof I will give on this subject is one to which I would
entreat the particular attention of those gentlemen who
are the advocates of the voluntary system. I hold in my
hand one of the most curious illustrations I have ever
met with of the advocacy of the voluntary system, and the
complete simultaneous proof of its failure. I hold in my
hand a report of the Diocesan Society of the diocese of Bath
anti Welts—a society which consists, as most of these socie-
ties do, of some of the most eminent of the clergy and laity
of that county. In October last this society published their
annual report, and at the end of it extolled the voluntary
'system in the strongest words that can well be used. The
report concludes with speaking of •` well-meant though
comperatekly impracticable endeavours," such as they had
seen made in the last session of Parliament—alluding to
my bill and that of the noble lord—to anbititute for the
present " noble voluntary exertions of the people, and es-
pecially of the Church of England," a state system of sup-
port, having tendencies which are alien to the feelings and
principles of the great majority of the Christian population
of this country. Here, then, is the broadest possible asser-
tion of the merits of this noble voluntary system, and of
the insufficiency and objectionable nature of the other sub-
stitutes proposed. But it so happens that in a preceding
sentence in this report attention is drawn to the fact that
a new diocesan inspector had lately been appointed—the
Rev. Mr. Vaughan. It appears that this inspector had
been round the diocese to examine the educational state of
the county—this county in which the effects of the volun-
tary system are so landed by the society. Will the house
pirmit me to draw its attention to one or two passages in
the report of that rev, gentleman as to the state of the dio-
cese ? and particularly I would beg the attention of the
risht, hon. baronet to them, because he says that England
is educated. Well, Mr. Vaughan said that there must be
evidently thousands growing up in the diocese without the
knowledge of the simplest elements of the Christian reli-
gion, whilst the very irregular attendance of a large num-
ber of the children who did go to school prevented their
a ;quiring any knowledge that was worth possessing; that
in many parishes there were no schools ; and that the first
remedy was the provision of funds for the building of schools
and the payment of masters and mistresses. And at the
end of the report he said he could not conclude with-
out expressing his decided opinion that the state of educa-
tion in the diocese was below what it ought to be; that in
many parishes there were excellent schools, which were
doing a great work, but that there were many also in
which there were no schools connected with the Church,
and many more in which the schools were sadly inefficient
—mere schools of idleness and every bad habit. In the
diocese of Bath and Wells, then, the right hon. gentleman
can hardly say that the people are educated. I will now
say a word.or two that may be interesting to the right
hon. gentleman the member for Wiltshire (Mr. S. Her- '
bed). I wish to show, from certain .evidence in my pos.
s ission how far the right hon. hart. would be justified in
saying that the people are educated in that county. I
hold in my hand a communication which I have received
from a resident clergyman in a parish in Wiltshire, with
whom I have no personal acquaintance, whose name
I have no authority to mention in this house, but
which I shall be happy to tell the right honourable
gentleman in private. He declared that, looking over
the length and breadth of that great county, he did not
know a single rural parish were the education of the la-
bourers was satisfactory, or the means of education any-
thing approaching to efficiency ; that there might be such,
but ho did not know them; that he knew many where
there was no day school of any description ; and that in 5
parishes the schools were only kept in existence in their
present wretched and almost usele.s condition by the libe-
rality of a single individual. Will the right hon. baronet
say, if this las a true statement, that it is possible for any
man to hold that England is educated so far as Wiltshire
is concerned ? Again, the Rev. Mr. Clay, the chaplain of
Preston gaol, in one of his reports, alludes largely to the
state of education in the county of Lancaster. Ha states
that of the immense number of prisoners who had been in
that gaol during the last two years not less than 36 per
cent, were unable to repeat the Lord's Prayer, and
that upwards of 70 per cent. came into the gaol in
such a state of moral debasement that it was
in vain to give them instruction or endeavour to
teach them their duty, because their state of ignorance
was such that they did not understand the meaning of the
words used for the purpose. We are also informed by Mr.
Clay in this report that of the working population in the
county of Lancaster not less than 1 in 14 comes every year
within the grasp of the law; and he argues, and argues
fairly, that the condition in which the unfortunate people
as e brought into the Lancashire prisons is a proof of the
state of degrading ignorance in which they stand. Yet it
is in the face of such facts as these that the right hon. ba-
ronet endeavours to get rid of the noble lord's proposition
by declaring that England is educated. I contravene the
assertion. He gives me an opinion, and it is that England
is educated. I meet him with facts ; and I say that these
facts demonstrate that England is not educated, and that
a large proportion of the population are in the most
alarming state of ignorance. Further, the head constable
of Preston says that of 16,500 peisons taken into custody
in the years 1853 and 1851, not less than 9,641, or
more than 58 per cent. of the whole, could neither
road nor write. The head constable of Manchester says
that of 8,291 males taken into custody in 1853 and 1454,
2,676, or more than 32 per cent., could neither read nor
write, and that 5,300, or nearly 61 per cent., could read
only, or read and write very imperfectly. Andetpt. Greg,
the head constable of Liverpool, says that of 2°,111 pri-
soners, only 2 per cent. of the whole could read and write
well ; that 11,000, or about 43 per cent., could ..read and
write imperfectly ; that 1,806 only could read well ; whilst
11,600, sr about 48 per cent. of the whole, could neither
read nor write. He asked the house, then, and would
ask the country, how, in the face of such facts as these, it
was possible for the right hon. baronet, or any other
man, gravely to assert as his opinion that the people of
England were in a satisfactory state with respect to educa-
tion ? (Hear, hear.) The house had lately had the report
of the inspectors of schools laid upon the table; and what
are the representations they contain ? Mr. Mitchell, an
inspector of the eastern counties,' says that he had in-
spected not less than 40 schools, and his colleague many
others, and that the details show that education is by uo
means universal in extent or good in kind ; that in some
instances the education is not only insufficient, but has
positively retrograded ; and that instead of progressing,
there are places where the action is altogether in the con-
trary direction. Mr. Mitchell also says that the pressure of
the times is such, especially upon clergymen of limited in-
come, who have heretofore supported schools by their con-
tributions as well as their influence, and they are now un-
able to continue the schools in rainy instances, unless they,
are supplied with some aid beyond that which the voluntary
system affords. Mr. Kennedy's report goes to the same point,
namely, the want of funds. Well, what does the right hon.
baronet say in answer to this, to prove that England is
sectlu:
cated, or that the state of education in the country is 86
factory? The right hon. baronet says you must t t rely
moupon
nts I
the voluntary system. Do you believe the a a e
have furnished the house? Are they, true, they or are
exaggerations ? Mr. Kennedy says the daily want IS the
want of funds, and he finishes his repert by saying he is
convinced that this want can only be supplied by a rate for
education, that the first and great want is an educational
rate. This view is not confined to Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Ken-
nedy, and Mr. Cooke; but: all the inspectors tell you that
there. is throughout the country a grievous want of better
education, and that the main cause of that deficiency is a
want of money, withent which education cannot be carried
on, The right hon. baronet advanced one of the most
startling opinions when he told us that these resolutions
are opposed to the spirit of liberty. The right bon. bisoriet
brought forward no argument in support of that opinion.
Is it opposed to the spirit of liberty to take measures to
promote one of the greatest objects of an enlightened peo-
plc, Is it opposed to the spirit of liberty that we should
adopt it for England, at this period of the nineteenth cen-
tury, precisely those principles which the Scottish nation
of themselves adopted 200 years ago? (Hear.) Those prin-
ciples I asked you to adopt last year, as the noble lord
now asks you to adopt them, and to carry them out by
kcal taxation under local management. The right
hon. baronet opposite was not quite fair in the quotations
which he has made from Mr. Baines's pamphlet, where he
talks of the bad effects of centralisation. This will not be
a centralising system, but a system of local management
and of local control, under central guidance and central
assistance. I believe the right hon. baronet was a member
of the Administration which adopted the present system
of the poor-law management. (" Hear, hear," from Sir J.
Graham.) Was that a system opposed to the spirit of
liberty or of freedom ? Was it not rather a system which
every intelligent man rejoiced to see established, as one of
the most efficient reforms of late years in the social con-
dition of the country. (Hear, hear.) What I proposed,
and what the noble lord proposes, is local management with
central guidance. The rate is to be raised by the votes of
the ratepayers. It is to be managed by committees locally
elected. I grant you, that for the sake of uniformity of
practice, those committees must be under central guidance
like the poor-law. But I defy the right hon. baronet to
prove that in proposing this scheme we are adopting any
plan open to the grave objection of being opposed to the

of the privileges they now enjoyed of secular teaching in-
t maixecl, even upon the voluntary system, with religions
knowledge and instruction. (The right hon. baronet re-
sumed his seat amidst loud cheering.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—Sir, after the able and powerful
speech we have just heard from the right hon. baronet, I
feel most unaffectedly the difficulty be has imposed on ma
of following him ; but, entertaining as I do, a clear con-
viction of this important subject, and, differing, as I am
compelled to do, from the conclusions at which the right
hon.gentleman leis arrived, I must throw myself on the
indulgence of the house while I undertake the arduous and
difficult task which, under a sense of public duty, I have
imposed on myself. I hope I shall not appeal to the
house in vain for that attention, without which I feel it
is impossible to meet and reply to tho statements the
right hon. gentleman has just delivered. The right hon•
gentleman appealed in his emphatic speech to truth.
I join issue with him boldly and fearlessly on that ap-
peal. I agree with the right hon. gentleman that this
is a great and important subject, affecting the dearest
interests of the people, and that it must be discussed by
the house with a strict regard to the merits of the
case. On the merits of the case, then, sir, I venture
to join issue with the right lion: bart. I a -cept his -Chal-
lenge, and, though.l own myself unequal to the right hon.
bait. in the p rwer of debate, yet I do not fear the issue if
1 atu.indulg.el with that atteution which is indispensable
for me to meet the stet nauutsuf time light lien. gentleman.
In one respect I am happy to say I cordially concur with
the right hon. gentleman. I agree with him that we ought
not to approach this subject in any party spirit, but that
we ought to approach it with the greatest gravity and
anxiety, and in that spirit I shall endeavour to deal with
and to approach this important subject. And, sir, I feel
it is all the more incumbent upon us to approach this sub-
ject with that gravity the right hon. gentleman so much
desires, when we bear in mind the enormous centesi-
mal proportion of the people of this country who are
affected by the great question of national education.
I shall not overstate the fact when I state that not
less than 15,500,000 out of the 18,000,003 of the popula-
tion of England and Wales are directly an I personally in-
terested in the question. 'ln this opinion I have the well-
known authority of Mr. Carr, the income tax commissioner,
who, in his report relative to the income of the various
classes in this kingdom, draws a broad line of distinction
between thoie who have an income of 751. per annum and
those who have not. Juelging, then, by this 'division of
the population—those who have and those who have not
74. a year—l am light in the statement I make, and I
think the house will agree with me when I state that every
family who has less than 751. a year is mainly dependent
for the education ofits chit iren on the national fund, what-
ever that may be. I am endeavouring to show the house
the enormous numerical proportion of the people affected
by this measure. ' It affects directly 15,503,000 out of the
18,000,003 of people. I say, then, we are bound to ap-
proach this question with the greatest anxiety, and because
the whole nation has a deep sense of the magnitude of the
question. With respect to the resolutions of noble lord
I will come at once to the objections made to them. The
first objection of the right hon. gentleman was made on the
ground of the form the resolutions have taken. I beg to
say, that while I give my support to the general spirit of
the resolutions, I do not coacur in all the details, as I think
will be sufficiently proved by my having moved amend-
ments to some portions of them. I do not thick the first
resolution is essential to the plan of the noble lord ; so,
therefore, I agree with the right hon. baronet that it re-
fers to matters which might be arranged by the commis-
sioners of national education (we understood). I object
also to the plan of throwing on quarter sessions the duties
which the noble lord proposes to throw on them, which I
think they cannot adequately perform. I do not under-
stand how magistrates in quarter, sessions in towns, and
especially in counties—how they can be informed as to the
educational requirements of distant parishes, or how they
can attempt to decide as to the proper amount of rate.
Then, with regard to the sixth resolution, which has formed
the subject of a great deal of discussion, I agree with
the right hon. gentleman in his objection, and I cannot
quite understand why the noble lord introduced it haze.
It touches a delicate and difficult subject, whice is likely
to create a great clamour, and to raise a principle about
which a great difference of opinion must exist ; and, there-
fore, considering the scope and object of the noble lord's
resolution, I hope an opportunity will be found of with-
drawing that resolution, or at least of not pressing it upon
the house. To the general spirit of' the noble lord's resolu-
tions I give my adherence, and I am here as the advocate
of some such plan as that brought forward by the noble
lord. But, looking to the importance of the resolutions,
and looking at the state of public opinion on the question
of education—a question on which there must be great
difference of opinion, still I must confess I was not pre-
pared for the course taken to-night by my right hon. friend
the member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) who throughout
his speech has been silent on one point. He has not told
. the house whether he is prepared to enter upon the dis-
cussion of the resolutions, and by the right hon. baronet,
who has expressed a hope that the house will tuke upon
itself to repudiate the whole of the subject, and to
refuse to entertain the question of the education of
the people; that is the proposition of the right hon. baro-
net. He refuses to go into the resolution at a 1 • he refuses
to enter upon the subject of the resolution ; and while he
asks the house to take this course, he must know if it is ac-
ceded to the house will evince a disregard towards the
feelings of the people, show itself indifferent to the public
interest, and without fail shako public confidence in it. I
hope, therefore, the house will not support the motion of
my right hon. iriend. I hope the house will enter upon the
discussion of the resolution of the noble lord. Let me now
approach the criticisms of the right hon. baronet. His
first objection was as to proceeding by resolution at all. I
admit there is one serious objection to that course. I re-
minded the noble lord on a former occasion that the plan
of resolutions would not do; that Lord Brougham had
placed resolutions on record without proper effect. But the
noble lord defended his course by arguments of which I,
for one, admit the propriety. His experience, he said,
showed him that uo independent member of that house had
a chance of carrying through a bill on such a complicated
question if her Majesty's Government refused to entertain
it. The noble lord has felt prudently and wisely. I think,
that looking to legislation on the question by an indepen-
dent member, it would be the inure prudent course for
independent members who had strong feelings on thesubject
not to attempt the hopeless task of legislation. but in a series
of resolutions to lay down broad and intelligible principles
for the adoption or rejection of the Legislature. That I
think is a sufficient answer to the first objection of the right
hon. gentleman. The right hon. gentleman then, with con-
siderable force, as I thiok, took the same objection as that
taken by the right hou. gentleman the member for Oxford-
shire; and I am the more disposed to advert to this objec-
tion because my right hon. friend in his able speech last
session appeared to attach weight to this objection. The
right hon. gentleman. (Sir J. Graham) objected to the
parochial boundary system, on the ground that it would
break up the parochial system, and sever the clergyman
(rein the school. I shall attempt to show that the parochial
system is simply an impossibility, and if I am right it will
be a good answer to this objection. Let me illustrate my
position by two instances, one on my own estate, in a
palish in my own neighbourhood, where a considerable
portion belongs to me. This parish has 36 re-iel ant inha-
bitants and five children of the school age. Will either of
my right hon. friends tell me how the parochial system of
education can apply to that parish, or avoid that Sever-
ance of the clergyman from the school which they so
much deprecate ? I will mention just one other instance
in the county of Monmouth, referred to by Archdeacon
Williams, where there were only 17 inhabitants. I need
go no ;further in order to dispose of the objection as to
the importance of maintaining the connection between
clergymen and schools. It is, as I have said, simply an
impossibility. The next point is, that the plan of the
noble lord is unnecessary. If the right honourable
baronet is right, certainly nothing can justify the intro=
duction of the plan. But the .whole question turns on
the assertion that the plan is unnecessary : and
here I join issue with the right honourable gentle-
man, and undertake to prove that the plan is imperatively
necessary, if we wish the people to be e 'fleeted. The right
hon. baronet spoke of the state of oducation of the people
of England, and referred to statistics, with which we are
all familiar, referring • to the periods of 1818, 1533, and
1851. I never have denied that these returns show that
the number of children-at school during the latter period
was more than at either of the former periods ; but the
right honourable gentleman did not state that the progress
evinced in the latter period was less than in the former
periods, nor did the right honourable gentleman refer to
the centesimal proportion of the scholars. These statis-
tics must ba wholly useless unless it can be shown that
the schools in the country aro tit for the duty required of
them, and that they are better than they were. Tha right
honourable baronet entered into comparative statistics of
education in this country and on the continent. I tell
the right honourable gentleman, without any discourtesy,
that he is positively wrong. Either he is or I am thoroughly
deceived on this point, and the house shall judge be-
tween us. I challenge him to the issue broadly and
distinctly. I understand him to say that in comparing
England with foreign countries, as far as education was
concerned, England was only- exceeded in the centesimal
proportion by one country. By the highest authority on
such a subject I am able to assure him he is misinformed.
We are exceeded by Switzerland—for in some cantons the
population is 1 to 4, in others 1 to 5. We are exceeded by
Russia; the centesimal proportion there is 1 to 7. We are
exceeded by a considerable portion of France, for there it
is 1 to 6; and by Saxohy, where the population is 1 to 5 ;
by Denmark, where it is 1 to 7. I do not recollect as to
Holland, but I have mentioned four or five countries in-
stead of one, which certainly do exceed England in this
respect. The right honourable baronet must allow me to
refer to the United States, where in parts of New Eng-
land the proportion is 1 to 5 and 1 to C. Instead, there-
fore, of there being only one country better off than Eng-
land, 'there are not more than three or four countries worse
off than England stands at this moment. What. is the
next argument of the light honourable baronet?
He says theplan is oppressive to the poor. Here the right
hon. baronet again is dealing, not with facts, but opinions.
I joie issue with him by distinctly expf-esiing a different
opinion, and say that nothing would bo more oppressive to
the poor and nothing more' injurious than to make it an
impossibility for thleracisgive their children that education
they ought to receive. Instead of being oppressive to the
poor, there is no portion of the people that would be more
grateful to the house for carrying a measure that would
give education to those classes, and enable their children
to derive the benefit of a better system than that which
now exists. The next charge, which I heard with sur-
prise, made against the noble lord's plan was, that it was
unconstitutional. Ic would be quite wrong in me to at-
tempt to defend any plan of the noble lord on the
ground of its constitutional character. No one is more
competent to= defend questions respecting the constitu-
tional interests of the country than the noble lord.
thel
have long observed that when it is wished to attackt
plan of some public: m mn the cry is raised that
it is not constitutional. The word constitutional is one
_
the most abused of words—it is used on all subjects. The
t of
right hon. gentleman then told us that his plan would
ndiist-
connect education with the religious system, ma
similar to that which obtains in Massachnsets. But the
noble lord, I am satisfied, will deny the imputation, and
will refuse to
fwll partyi to the American system'. The
noble lord and h Lyheyel
hold
that any system of
us-
tional education will be imperfect, unsatisfactory, and aun-
acceptable to the country that is not based on religion, and
which does not distinctly recognise the necessity of, basing
education on religion. The right hon, baronet referred to
what I said last year on the subject of religious education,
and endeavoured to show that the plan I' ventured to re-
commend would not meet the case—would not, in fact, at-
tain the principle of education in combination with 'reli-
gion. I deal with his opinion as not being the fact. T
dissent from it, and say I am enabled to refer to
experience to prove that there is abundant experience,
both in England and on the Continent, to show that the
religious difficulty can be solved, and that you may have
religious teaching in a mixture of religions sects without
the slightest sacrifice of the interests of religion. I might
refer to the remarkable instance of the grammar school of

spirit of liberty. I repudiate that clittrii, suit 4.6 him
to prove it. If I feel warmly on this subject, it is not
from any feeling of disrespect to the right hon. baronet,
but from the great issue before us. I am only discharging
the day which every member ought to discharge in stating
boldly the convictions I entertain. At this late hour I will
not enter into the question as to how the funds are to be
supplied for meeting the educational wants of the country.
When we get into committee fitting opportunities will arise
for considering the rules on this point. I will only state
on this occasion that I advocate the rate simply for the
reason that no other practical mode has been suggested by
which the deficiency can be supplied. My noble friend—
sit now in. his place—the member for Stamford, feeling
the pressure of this part of the case as to finding funds said
that we ought to ask Parliament to grant the money; but
my noble friend did not tell us what must be the next step.
If Parliament granted the millions, who,is to have the ad•
ministration of them ? I believe the question of rating
will turn out to be simply a question of business. Money
is wanted. We cannot educate without money. Where
is it to come from? At a voluntary meeting the other day
I see it was stated that education in this country was a
matter of parental duty. Now, with all respect for those
who attended that meeting, I think this further question,
whether the industrious classes are in a position to educate
themselves without help, might well have been raised. At
this moment, under the voluntary system, are the working
classes called upon to educate their own children ? Nu.
They pay 21, while the child costs 6d. a week. And the
question of rates was really a question as to where the
difference was to come from. Show me a more satis-
faetory mode, and I shall no longer advocate a rate.
I believe you cannot point out a more satisfactory
mode. To supply the great defects I have pointed
out' you will find practically no other mode than that
to which I referred. It may not be this year, but
my belief is that the day is not far distant when this
plan will ba adopted by Parliament. (Hear.) I do not
deny that the subject is surrounded with difficulties, but
I hope Parliament will meet them. boldly, in an enlarged
spirit, and that they will approach the consideration of
the noble lord's resolutions in a calm, temperate, and for-
bearing spirit. I believe that in a few years this house
and the country will look back with-utter astonishment at
the bugbear with which we have so long been contending,
and with a feeling that this house and the country ought
not so long to have postponed the settlement of this great
question, so deeply affecting the interests and welfare of
the
_peoples (Cheers.) _

BARNES moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. DISR &ELI expressed his astonishment st a proposal
to adjourn this debate without the hawse or the country
having any idea of what were the views of the Giiiernment
on the question. He thought, before the house consented
to adjourn the debate, it would be highly satisfactory to
receive from the Government some expression of theiropi-
nion on a matter of such vast importance. (Hear.) -
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped, after the statement made by
the right hon. baronet, the member for Carlisle (Sir J.
Graham), and which statement was made, he (Lord J.
Bingen) thought, in total misapprehension .of his views,
that the noble lord at the head of the Government would
so far alter his determination as to allow the debate to be
continued this day (Friday), so that the house might be
in possession of what was really the scheme he proposed
before they heard the course which the Government in.
tended to pursue. (Hear.)
Lord PALMER,STON said he had stated, in the early
part of the evening, that it was the intention of Govern-
ment to go on to-morrow (this day) with supply; but cer-
tainly the circumstances to which his noble friend alluded,
and the natural desire which his noble friend must have
to reply to the statements of the right hen. baronet the
member for Carlisle, furnished sufficient reason why that
course should be altered, and why they should go on with
the debate. (Hear, hear.) He proposed, therefore, to go
into supply ott Monday
Mr. DISRAELI said the noble lord seemed to forget
that, at, the request of gentlemen sitting on that side of the
house, he had inquired what were the intentions of Govern-
ment with respect to business on Friday, in consequence of
this important debate coming-on that evening. It was then
obvious it would be a long debate; and it was quite obvious
that the noble lord the member for London would feel it
necessary to the high interest of the question, and to .his
own high character, to enter into an elaborate considers.
tion of his resolutions, but the noble lord at the head of the
Government said he had made up his mind to go intocont-
mittee of supply. The house -must feel that it was of the
utmost consequence that when those inquiries were made
the reply should be distinct, and adhered to.
Lord PALMERSTON said the right hon. gentleman was
very hard to please. (A laugh.) The reply ho had made
was not made in thoughtlessness, but for the convenience
Government, and the interest of the public service. But
he had yet to learn that it was the duty of Government to
disregard those courtesies which were due to members
bringing forward an important question, and who, like
his noble friend tha.member for London, might be desirous
to take the earliest opportunity of replying to statements
made against those measures.

The Motion for adjourning the debate was then agreed
to, End the house resumed.
RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC BILL.

The second reading of this bill was postponed until the Bth
•f May.

JOINT-STOCK 'BANKS BILL.
This bill was read a second time.
WAYS AND MEANS.

Mr. FITZROY brought up the report ou ways and means,
which was agreed to.

- BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. WALPOLE wished to know, as the ordinary course
of proceeding with the business of the house was next week
to bo altered, when the Police: Bill would Come ou for dis-
cussion.

Sir G. GREY said he would flan for Friday, but could not
say when it would be proceeded with.
Mr. DISRAELI again complained of the adjournment of
the debate until to morrow (this day), as it would pfeclude
his right hon. friend from making his motion en going into
supply.
Viscount PALIVIERSTON said that it was an act of corn.
mon courtesy to his noble friend.
Mr. DISRAELI wished to see courtesy extended to his
friend. •

Viscount PA.LMERSTON—My, friend is my friend.
Laughter.)

SPIRIT TRADE IN IRELAND.
On the motion of Mr. BRADY, the house went into com-
mittee to give him an opportunity of bringing iu a bill on
this subject ; but as the proceeding was considered out of
rule, the house resumed.
SHIPPING DUES COMMITTEE.
Mr. WILSON moved that the committee should consist
of 17 instead of 15 members, which was agreed to.
The name of Mr. Vance was then added to the committee.
On the motion that Mr. Kirk's name be also added,
Mr. VANCE opposed the motion as Mr. Kirk was em-
ployed on another committee, and because it was desirable
to have on the committee some boil. member to represent
the southern ports of Ireland, and as Dublin and Cork were
the only two ports which would be affected by the bill be-
coming law, he would propose the name of Mr. Beamish as
au amendment. Another objection to Mr. Kirk was, that he
was likely to be a partisan, as he had already spoken in. fa-
vour of the abolition of shipping dues.
Mr. LOWE hoped the house would not agree to the amend-
ment, as it was desirable that the mercantile interests of Ire-
land should also be represented on the committee.
After a few words from Mr. GROGAN, Mr. RICHARDSON, and
Mr. BRANUM, the house divided.
For Mr. Kirk
Against

73
94
Majority
The announcement was received with loud cheering.
The name of Mr. Beamish was thou put, and added to the
committee.

TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE.
Sir G. GREY moved the substitution of the Name of Mr.
Monckton Milnes for that of Mr. Scott.
After a few words from Mr. WALPOLE, Mr. SCOTT, and Mr.
Y. MILNES, the motion was agreed to.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
Mr. NAPIER obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend
the laws relating to the election of poor-law guardians in Ire-
land.

The bill was brought in and read a first time.
, MORTARS AND GUNS.
Colonel BOLDERO moved for-1. The names of the dif-
ferent contractors of certain ordnatoe. 2. Their calibte.
3. The proof charge of each description of gun, howitzer, and
mortar, and 4. The number of rounds tired from each.
The motion was agreed to.
The house then adjourned at a quarter-past one.

The opening of the conference of prelates at
Vienna took place on the 6th.

H.R.H. the Prince of Wales and the Prince Alfred,
attended by Mr. Gibbs and Dr. Becker, visited the
Crimean Exhibition, 121, Pall-mall, yesterday.
Yesterday morning the marriage of the Hon. C.
Stewart Hardinge, 11LP., eldest son of Field-Marshal
Viscount Hardinge, with the lovely and accomplished
Lady Lavinia Bingham, daughter of the Earl of Lucan,
.
was solemnised at St. George's, Hanover-square, the
presence of a numerous circle of the nobility and friends
of both noble families. After the ceremony a dejenner
was given at the Earl of Lucan's, Hanover-square. The
happy couple left town for South-park, near Penhurst,
Kent, Lord Hardinge's seat, to pass the honeymoon.
The Minister of War at Turin has given orders for the
formation of a camp of observation at La Spezzia, where
the troops returning from the. Crimea are to be concen-
trate:l before returning to their respective regiments.
]-
[Anvsarsamixr.--It in ever a pleasing duty of a jour-
nalist to introduce to his readers some new discovery cal-
culated to benefit that vast portion of our fellow-creatures
which has the strongest claims upon our sympathies. It is
with this feeling that we call the attention of invalids to
the following extract from Du Barry's interesting Report of
Cures without medicine of Indigestion (Dyspepsia), Flatulency,
Constipation, Nervous, Bilious, and Liver complaints, Cough,
Asthma, Consumption, and Debility, by Du Barry's Rave-
leuta Arabica Food. Cure No. 180.—Twenty-five years' ner-
VOUSIICBS, constipation, indigestion, and debility, from which
I had suffered great misery, and which no medicine could
remove or relieve, have been effectually cured by Du Barry's
food in a very short time.---W. R. Reeves, Pool Anthony,
Tiverton. Cure No. 1,784.—N0t expected to live six days
linger, I was cured by Du Barry's admirable Health-restoring
Arabica Food.—Magdalena Purvis, Moffat, Scotland. Cure
No. s,46l.—Sixty years' partial paralysis, affecting one-half
of my frame, and which had resisted all other remedies, has
yielded to Du Barry's Health-restoring Food, and I now con-
sider myself a stranger to all complaints excepting a hearty old
age.—Wm. Hunt, barrister-at-law, King's College, Cambridge.
In canisters, 51bs. Ils.; 121b5., 225. The 121bs. carriage
free, on receipt of post-office order. Barry du Barry and
Co., 77, Regent-street, London ; Fortnum, Mason, and Co.,
Purveyors to her Majesty, Piccadilly ; also at 60. Grace.
church-street; 330 and 451, Strand; 4, Cheapslde ; 68,
Ccrnhill ; 49, Bishopsgate-street ; 55, Charing-cross ; 54,
Upper Baker-street ; 63 andlso, Oxford-street.
(Anyzarissmssr.l—Only to be known to be valued.—Dr.
Roberts's celebrated ointment, called the " Poor Man's
Friend," is confidently recommended to the public as an un-
failing
remedy for wounds of every description, a certain
cure of ulcerated sore legs, if of twenty years' standing, cuts,
burns, ssalds, bruises, chilblains, scorbutic eruptions, and
pimples in the face, sore and inflamed eyes, sore heads, can-
cerous humours, &c., and is a specific for those afflicting
eruptions that sometimes follow vaccination. Sold in pots,
at Is. M. and 2s. 9d. each.—Also his "
phulse,"-confirmed by more than forty years experience to be,
without exception, one of the best alterative medicines ever
compounded for purifying the blood and assisting nature in
all her operations ; hence they are useful in scrofula, scorbutic
complaints, glandular swellings, particularly those of the
neck, esc. They form a mild and superior family. aperient
that may be taken at all times without confinement or change
of diet. Sold in boxes, at ls. lid., 2s. 9ds, 45. 6d., lls.,
and 225. each.—Sold wholesale Irs the proprietors, Beach and
Barnicott, at their dispensary, Bridport; by the London
houses ; retail by all respectable medicine vendors in the
United Kingdom. Observe,—No medicine sold. under the
above names can possibly be genuine, unless "Beach and
Barnicott, late Dr. Roberts, Bridport," is envaved and
printed on the stamp affixed to each box.