The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-12 00:00:00

HO USE OF COMMONS, FEN. 11.

The SPEAKER took the chair at five o'clock, when
Mr. Alderman WOOD moved for a Bill to improve the ap-
proaches to Lonaun bridge.

Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. O'CONNELL brought up the Bill for the Kings
ston and Dublin railroad.
Cu!. LEITH HAY moved for a return of the duties
paid by the li-ensed distillers in Scotland.
Mr. DUKE moved for the return of the joint principal
clerks of the Courts of Request, as to the sums paid in
from the year 1821 to 1831.
Colonel EVANS remarked that he felt an inclination
to say something concerning the imperfections of suet,
returns as they were furnished. He would, however, give
an opportunity for their correction, as otherwise the re-
sponsibility of such tit ficiencies would fall on the mover.
Lord ALTHORP took the opportunity of mentioning
that it was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to in
trodure the Local Courts Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL was glad to hear such an announce
meat from the Noble Lord, as nothing could tend to give
so much satisfaction to the body of the neople as ti t
tutu oduction of the Local Courts Bill. Mr. O'Connell them,
proceeded to make some strictures on the presemi
mode of settling points of litigation ; he partieularl:
alluded to demurrers, which, in his mind, were a dis
grace to the present code of laws. Mere formalities shoulq

47-
-47-416
nt be permitted to stand in the way, bat should be
made to yield to points of justice.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL made some observe-
done, which were perfectly inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. O'CONNELL rejoined, but we could not catch
his observations.
Mr. HALCOMB renewed the motion which was
-nade last session concerning the election at Coven'ry. He
wished thst the Committee for that purpose be nominated
on next Thursday.
Mr. HEATHCOTE moved for a return of the assise of
bread in the city of London.
Mr. HEATHCOTE said he bad a question to put to
the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Noble Lord,
in answer to a question from a Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
R. Pi el), a few days since, stated that it was the ,oxen.
tier' of his Majesty's Government that agricultural horses,
employed in drawing tithe, or such like employments,
should not be subject to any tax. The answer of the Noble
Lord bad given great satisfaction—(Hear, hear)—and
lie wished that the Noble Lord would give still further
satisfaction by carrying the principle further, and allow
the some principle that applied to agricultural horses to
epply also to agricultural labourers. It was well known
teat agricultural labourers were at present suhject to a tax
if they were found employed in other than mere agri-
cultural employment, such as saddling or grooming
a horse or such like employments. It was recommended
ray the Poor Law Commissioners that such petty distinc-
tions should be done away with, and it was with reference
to this subject that he wished to put a question to the
Nob'e Lord. There was another class of persons, namely,
-hepherds, who, in considering this subject, be wished
to bring to the Noble Lord's recollection, as it was temaie
(hired a matter of great consequence in the place wiiele
he represented.
Lord ALTHORP, who spoke in a low tone, was un-
derstood to say that the same principle which applied to
agricultural horses, occasionally enaptoyed for other pur.
poses, would also apply te agriculture' labourers.
Mr. COBBETT said that the Noble Lord ought also
to take into consideration those persons who were em-
ploy-d in farm-houses.
Lord DUNCANNON moved for a return of the mitt
of money that had been expended in making new roads
and other improvements in the counties of Cork and
Kerry. The Noble Lord, in answer to a question of Mr.
t ,'Connell, said that about a third of this money bad been
laid out on new re.ds.
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to give notice of a Bill which
he intended to bring in for the disfranchisement of the
borough of Carrickfergus. It was not necessary to fres,
pass at any length on the time of the House; as f.r as
bringing in the Bill related, the matter bad been meet tely
discussed already, and the House had expressed itself of
opinion that a complete case had been made out for the
purpose. They had come to this opinion in consequence
of two reports, the first of which was that of thetlec-
tion Committee which tried the lest election, and net only
declar-d that the election wasvoid, but etrone let commented
upon the bribery and corruption that prevailed within the
borough. After that report he had trusted that he should
lie allowed to bring forward a Bill for the total
disfranchisement of the place.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Upon that occasion, however, some gentlemen inte-
rested in the borough stepped forward and stopped the
proceedings by getting the report of the Election Com-
mittee referred to a Select Committee. That Select Cum-
rnittee had examined several witnesses, and bad reported
that it was a fir case for disfranchisement. He (Mr.
O'Connell) had, therefore, the reports of two Committees
to enable him to bring in this Bill. Fle had been sold that
he (mat not to press forward this measure without
sufficient notice, and he had therefore extended the
time a week longer than was required.—(Hear.) Ac.
cording to the rules of the House it was necessary, that
before a Bill of this kind could he read, ten die' notice
should be given to the returning officer; it was therefore
necessary that a Bill should he read for the first cline as
soon as possible, that it might come before the House, and
he passed doting the present session. Under these ciscum.
stances he would be content with this statement, de.
daring that nothing had been done to press the matter
forwards. The Bill he intended to submit to the House would
he merely for the disfranchisement of the borough; it
would not substitute any other place fir the franchise. At
the same time he would beg leave to add, that if any
other place was substituted, he would be ready to
transfer the franchise to any other place, with of
course the same portion of representatives. If a new
town were substituted he hoped that the franchise would
not be transferred to any oth-r district, but be confired to
the province of Ulster. As far as this he would support
any gentleman that. would make a motion for this purp
Lord J. RUSSELL entirely agreed with the course
proposed by the Hon. and Learned Gent', man. T,3
best step that could have been taken was to have given
sufficient notice to the brooch which it was proposed
should be disfranchised. He hoped, when the voters of
that borough shall have been beard, they would be able to
show there was not a sufficient case made out for its
disfranchisement.
Mr. SHAW also concurred in the propriety of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman's present course. It would
be a very different question whether, on the second reading
of the Bill, the evidence would authorize the House to
pass the second reading.
Mr. HALCOMB also expressed his assent to what had
been said, yet lie was anxious to address a few words on
the great and important principle now before the House,
not only as applicable to Carrickfergus, but also to five
others, who were almost immediately to be brought under
consideration. He was struck with this important goes-
tin, which all must ask themselves in this House, stainer
or later--were they prep wed as a legislative assembly to take
away constitutional rights upon investigations before com-
mittees which had no power to examine witnesses on oath ?
—(Hear, hear.) If there was abundant reason in
that objection, even to doubt the propriety of
such a course, why was it not obviated by an
Act of Parliament before the House got further into
difficulty, by which those Committees would be
enabled to take the examinations properly on oath ?
How monstrous was the proposition, that they
should take away the most valuable rights of indivi-
duals without examining a single individual on oath against
those individuals whose important rights were sought to
Ne taken away. With respect to Stafford, was the House
orep tied to say that if they adopted the report of the
Committee that would be a sufficient ground on which
to proceed to disfranchise Stafford ?—(Hear, hear.)
Were Hon. Members prepared to say they could punish
these who had received bribes, and that yet on the same
principle, and on the same ground, they could not punish
these who had paid the bribes? If the report of the Saf-
ford Committee was good for one purpose, surely it ought
to be good for the other. By that report it appeared
that one of the Hon. Members, at present in the House,
for Stafford had bribed not less than 582 persons ; the
other, 420 ; and the losing candidate, 301 ; an ► yet
the two Hon. Members for Stafford bad seats in that
House.—(Hear, and laughter.) He implored the !loupe
to consider the very awkward situation in which it would
be placed, if it prime, ded in the manner it was tieing.
Suppose they were to 'use the report of the Stafford
Cernmittee as a ground to punish those who bed been
bribed ; what answer could be wade to any Hon. Gentle-
man who might rise in his place and move fin the expul-
-ion of those two gentlemen who had bribed the intlivi-
iluals that were to be punished ? He knew of none ; he
euly used that as an argument, putting aside all jekes,
why the House should set about considering the principle
they were establishing in bringing in Bids to disfranchise
boroughs on such flimsy proceedings. The same objection
applied to the mode of extending the franchise, although
not to so great a degree, as in the case of dedrenchising.
For his own part, he would not yield even to the Noble
Lord who had spoken last but one, in his desire
io destroy corrupt boroughs, provided the House
proceeded on rules grounded on common sense,
And what pure justice demanded. If he had been in the
stl-I.oll:pleUp4Oerhtaeedt thltiloelepetidip:
principle
naocffitpe
irteh eot ti a
t-
thatfor
declaration,m
measureßil . be would wahonetdi I baredsthhoeur
eld
never be set down as an illiberal old Tory.—(Laughter.).
Whether he should be called an illiberal Tory or a loyal
• dto see the proceedings of the House ,H‘hVeehroigni,nlybue.Twisoair,sey mboorsotuagnhxoioruns
otto,
bseeecisatoredusens reformed
oaaing ;
single straw.
con-
ducted on judicial and honourable principles, and that, in
a desire to reform abuses, it should not plunge itself into
inextricable difficulties.
eti
The question was then put and carried.
PRINCE LEOPOLD'S ANNUITY.
Mr. ROBINSON, on being called on, said it became
his euty to call the attention of the House to the pension
which had been granted to Prince Leopold, now King
of Belgium, on his being married to the late Princess
Charlotte of Wales. He had been induced to do so in
eineequence of the answer given on a harmer ()emotion
iy the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
That Noble Lard bad stated that in consequence of .he
levatien of Prince Leopold to the throne of 13eigiutn, a
r,at benefit would be conferred on this country,
but he
he
en
his oti
theinson) doubted whether this
int..
..ountry ? Ile did not ask what Prince Leopold hod re.
It had received
w nti
bad
benefitadtob e itnek e thatt hnte 'erred on 'tie Nhoabd i,
l b.n
uel d
(Althorp) whether that benefit
ceived except from the time be hod become the Sovereign of

\ •

ilk

111-1/4
ao independent state. Prince Leopold, white he received the
pension granted to him wouldsmot cease to owe an alle-
gi tewe to the throne of this ceuntry, because the annuity of
50,0001. a year had been granted him during his
lire- He (Mr. Robinson) had no right to dispute
Prince Leopold's right to the pension; but be was obliged
to take the oath of allegiance to this country ; and after
he had done so, he had become the sovereign of an inde-
pendent state ; and therefore it was that he ought not, in
his (Mr. Robinson's) opinion, to continue to receive the
pension.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") However, he
would not at the present moment argue that question
He recollected that at that time a most extravagant eulo.
gium had been pronounced upon his Royal Highness
Prince Leopold by the Hon. Member for Lambeth in that
House, and by a Noble Duke in another. Was the
House, he would ask, in this position that it could
not enter into the question of how this money was dis-
posed of, now that the original reasons f.r making such a
grant no longer existed? Be would ask, it hat security
had they that the money had been properly appropriated
since Prince Leopold had left the country? Had the
Government any responsible person to inquire into its
appropriation after the money had been paid out of the
Treasury, and a receipt, as he (Mr. Robinson) presumed,
taken? Could they ascertain that it had been applied even
according to the disposition of his Raval Highness, Prince
Leopold ? Or was the money to be left to the disposal of
persons, who would render no account to the Government,
and who would say that the Government hail no right to ask
'What disposition hail been made of it ? He (Mr. Robin-
:ten) remembered, that at the time when the Prince
Resent sent down a message to that House, requesting
its Members to make a provision for his daughter en her
marriage, and on which occasion a sum of 61) 0001.
Lpar annum was voted to her, and of 50,0001. to Prince
eopold, they were agreed to almost without an observation.
This was perfectly proper, for it was a n itianel question,
and on in which the reeling.; of the Howie were deeply
interest-d. The merri4o, was one from which the country
nt.,(l the House augured much happitie,.., „nil he need not
MO, particularly allude to the ezpecratione that
had been form- d from that Ele,ir, heir )
Tz,e Noble Lord had at that time made a proposition which
re :s most literal in itself, :end I.e &eject of which was
that t ere should be no excuse fur incurring those debts
erbith in another case hid octets, oned so much inconve-
hiet 'c • and annoyance to other members of the Royal
`atnily. The pres. nt Lord Chancellor had very fairly
admitted that ire had some miigivreg• as to the appropri-
ation of this 50,0001. per annum, in case of survivorship,
hut at the rime, the subject r,. inc rather unpleasant, it was
thought better that this question should not be
rsised. He (Mr. Robinson) maintained that the House
bad a right to ascertain front u e G orerntnent whether
they hail continued to pay this 50,0001. since the de-
parture of Prince Leopold—that it had ct right to ask to
whom it had been paid, or whether they had any
security that the money had been appropriated ac-
cording to the dispo-i Min made by his Royal High-
ness. It might be satisfactory to the House, many
of the Members of which might have forgotten it, to
remind it of the terms of the arrangement entered into at
the time his Royal Highness was about to leave this country.
He would therefore take the liberty of reading his Royal
Highness's letter, which was addressed to the present
Premier, and dated the 15'11 July. 1831.—(Hear, hear.)
Marlborough House, July 13, 1831.
My Dear Lord Grey,—Before I quit the country, I am de-
sirous to state in writing the intentions and views which I
had the pleasure of communicating to you verbally this morn-
ing on the subject of my British annuity.
As Sovereign of Belgium, it is not my intention to draw
from this country any portion of the income which was settled
on me by Act of Parliament at the period of my marriage.
Your Lordship is, however, well aware that up to the very mo-
Ment of my leaving England, I have maintained my establish-
ments here on their accustomed footing, and that consequently
there remain to be fulfilled and discharged pecuniary engage-
ments and outstanding debts to an amount which it is quite
impossible for me to state at the present time with precision.
As soon, therefore, as I shall have accomplished the payment
of these demands, it is my intention to make over into the hands
of trustees, whom I will without loss of time appoint, the whole
of the annuity which I receive from this country, in trust for
the following purposes :
I shall require my trustees to maintain in a state of complete
habitation and repair, the house, garden, and park, at Clare-
mont; and further, to pay which, the salaries, pensions, and
allowances, which I shall deem a proper reward to those who
have claims upon me, for their faithful services, during my
residence in this country. I shall, in addition, require them to
continue all those charitable and annual donations to charitable
institutions, which have been allowed, or submitted to, either
by the Princess Charlotte or myself, up to the present time. All
these objects having been fulfilled, it is my wish and desire that
the remainder should be repaid into the British Exchequer.
I remain, my dear Lord Grey, most faithfully yours,
LEOPOLD.
On the very night that letter was read, he cline down to
the House to auk the Government whether any arrange-
ment had been made with the Prince, but he was pre-
vented, by the Noble Lord reading that letter, from
asking the question, and he was glad that he was pre-
vented, because ha concurred in the generous senti-
ment which prevailed in the House, that it would be
better to let it be an act of grace of his Royal Highness,
than any public act of that House. But he must confess
that since that period that feeling had very much abated
within bim.—(Hear.) He did not mean to charge the
Prince with any breach of faith ; he entertained the high-
est respect for the Prince personally, and he entertained
the greatest respect for all the Princes C 011.•
fleeted with this country, and that alone would prevent
him, if nothing else did, from saying anything offensive.
But the House must do its duty, and it was due to the
Prince himself that the Noble Lord should state
what had become of the money paid to the Prince
since he left this country.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Was he to be met by an Act of Parliament and to
be told that that was conclusive ? He had admitted
that already, but he altogether objected to the pre-
sent reservation in the letter, and he could not
understand what was meant by making provision for his
household in this country. He thought his Royal
Highness might have provided much better for them
abroad.—(A laugh.) And with respect to keeping the
establishment at Claremont, with its fine parks, in a
habitable state of repair, it appeared to be
.so vague
a declaration, that he could not define its meaning,
but be should like to have it defined, and he trusted some
information would be given to the House upon the sub-
ject. As to an Act of Parliament, the words were
sometimes made the authority and sometimes the spirit.
He admitted that the words of the Act were quite definite
and clear as to the right of Prince Leopold to the annuity
during the whole course of his natural life ; but though
the words were clearly so, the spirit of the Act was totally
otherwise. Now they had been toll, when the question
of the Russian Dutch Loan came before the House, that
the spirit and not the words of the Act then in question
was to be acted on. Were they then to be told, in this
case, that the spirit of the Act by which an annuity was
granted to Prince Leopold should be wholly cverlooked,
and the words only to be looked to? He hoped that the
Government would not think of putting the case on such
a footing.—( Hear, hear.) He begged that it should tie
distinctly understood, that in his present motion, he (Mr.
Robinson) did not mean to attach blame to any one. He
merely made the motion because he thought, as was stated
by the Nob s Lord when he read the letter of his High•
ness, in 1831, that the House and the country would
naturally expect some comniunication on the subject of
the annuity. Was the country to believe that the Prince,
with an income of 50.0001. a year, should have incurred
such a debt that the whole amount of the annuity for
three years would not pay it I—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Robinson) did not believe that any such debt was incurred.
He spoke under the eisadvantage of not being personally
acquainted with his Highness; but he believed, and it was
generally understood, that the Prince, instead of being
eztravaeant, was rather parsimonious in his habits, and
was saving a large portion of his annuity while in this
country. Let the, however, be as it might, it was un-
derstood that the debts meant by the Prince, in the let-
ter which he wrote to Earl Grey, were only such as were
current half yearly. And certainly, with such an income
as the Prince had, it WAS not right to be supposed
that he should incur debts in this country to such a largo
amount as our present knowledge of the case would lead
us to suppose. When mention was made of the very great
liberality displayed by the Prince, he (Mr. Robinson)
thought that the liberality of the country should also he
kept in remembrance. It ought not to be forgotten, that
after the death of the Princess Charlotte, nearly one mil-
lion sterling was paid to Prince Leopold. He would say
nothing of the Prince's situation previous to his marriage.
By that event he became the husband of one of the most
cherished princesses ever known in this country; and it
was for the credit, as it was the wish of the country, that
he should have an income commensurate with that high
station. But still he (Mr. R.) thought there was no very
great generosity in resigning the annuity when he became
Kiogof the Belgians, especially as he obtained that Crown
principally through the instrumentality of England. The
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving, that an " Account
of the sum or suins of money paid intu the Exchequer, or
otherwise received by the Government, out of the Annuity
grunted by Act of Parliament to Prince Leopold of Saxe
Coburn, since the accession of his Majesty to the Throne
of Belgium, specifying the time of such payments, be laid
upon the table."
Mr. GUEST (we believe) seconded the motion, and

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states, tat if the ou'bienst were eluded, or not satisfac-
tot ily explained at present, he would take the subj-et into
his own hands, and renew it at a future period of the
session, in a new and different shape.
Lord ALTHORP rose and said, that the statement
made by the Hon. Gentleman had almost precluded the
necessity of a statement on his part, as he had stated
almost all the circumstances of the case. The Hon.
Gentleman had stated that his Highnes., before leaving
this country, had written a letter to Earl Gr y, and he
had read that letter. The letter stated that his Highness
did not mean to draw any part of the annuity, with the
exception of the amount required to pay curtain debts and
annuities, and the expense of keeping up his late residence
at Claremont in habitable repair. The Hon. Gentleman
had alluded to the supposed extravagance of his Highness
in having incurred debts, which prevented any pirt of the
annuity from being paid into the Exchequer, hut he was
not aware, that without extravagance the circumstance
might very readily have happened.—(Hear, hear.) The
letter also stated that certain trustees should be appointed
to give his Highness's intentions effect. But the trustee,
had declined to acts and consequently no trustee had been
appointed up to the present time. He (Lord Althorp)
had had some communication on the subject previous to
the meeting of Parliament, and he thought the best way
of laying the state of the case before the House, was by read-
ing the letters which he received from the King of the
Belgian's Secretary. He would, therefore, read them—

" Marlborough house, Feb. 2.

" My Lord,—ln addition to the letter which I have had
the honeur of addressing to your Lordship this day, I think it
proper to direct your attention to the circumstance, that the
amount of his Majesty the King of the Belgian's pecuniary
engagements and out-standing debts, due at the time of his
quitting this country, could not, as his Majesty then stated to
Earl Grey, be ascertained with precision. They have been
found to amount to nearly 83,0001. The current expenses of
Claremont, Marlborough.house, and the other payments re-
ferred to in his Majesty's letter to Earl Grey. amount to
nearly 20,0001. per annum, which two items will account for the
application of all the sums accruing from his Majesty's annu-
ity since his departure from this country. With regard to
the annual payments last noticed, they will in future be met
under the trust crea•ed by his M jesty, and will be reduced
in amount at the expiration of the lease of Marlborough house
in 1835, and by other contingencies, such as the death of an.
nuitants, and the probable diminution in the expenditure for
repairs.

" How far this communication may be considered requisite
on my part, according to the spirit of the letter under which
his Majesty's income in this country has been, and is to be,
appropriated, I submit entirely to your Lordship's better
judgment, and I have the honour to subscribe myself, your
Lordship's most obedient humble servant,
Baron de STOCKM AR.
"To the Right Hon. the Viscount Althorp, &c."
" Marlborough-house, Feb. 2.

"My Lord,—l am commanded by his Majesty the King of
the Belgians to inform your Lordship, that the pecuniary en-
gagements and outstanding debts of his Majesty in this country
are nearly liquidated, and will be entirely soon the sth of April
next ; that after paying the sum yet remaining to be discharged
out of the April quarter, and providing for the necessary expen
diture until the ensuing quarter becomes payable, according to
his Majesty's communication to Earl Grey previous o his quit-
ting this country, there will be a large surplus, which will be
paid into the Exchequer in the course of the month of April.
" It has been already communicated to your Lordship, that,
in August,lB32, his Majesty was anxious to place the income
under th? control of the trustees, but that they declined begin.
ning to act in the trust until his Majesty's private affairs in this
country had been entirely settled.
" As the sum remaining to be liquidated can be now ascer-
tained, it is my intention to address his Majesty's trustees, to
induce them immediately to enter upon the trust ; but, should
they decline to do so until all the incumbrances are discharged,
that is to say, until after the sth of April next—your Lordship
may be assured that the first payment into the Exchequer will
be made in April next, and from that period no impediment
will exist to the trustees commencing their trust.—l have the
honour to subscribe myself, my Lord, your obedient and humble
servant, Baron de STOCKMAR,
" Controller and Private Secretary.

" To the Right Hon. the Viscount Althorp, &c."
That was the statement of the circuir,stances which
trevented any part of the money from being paid into the
Exchequer up to the present time. He (Lord Althorp)
did not olject to the merle') of the Hon. Member. He
observed that the Hon. Gentleman, in the course of his
observations, remarked that there were reports that some
part of the annuity went abroad. He (Lord Althorp)
was satisfied that such reports were utterly without foun-
dation ; and if siteh reports existed, he felt glad that they
were mentioned by the Hun. Member, because it give
him (Lord Althorp) an opportunity of staring that, as far
as he knew, they were entirely without foundation. The
Hon. Gentleman had stated that he had no intention of
bringing on the question as to the right of the Prince to
the annuity. All he (Lord Althorp) could tray was, that
hie right was estab!ished by Act -of Parliament, and such
undoubtedly was the intention of the House and the coun-
try at the time of the marriage. By reference to the
remarks made on the subject, it would be found that any
project would he scouted which went to deprive his Hie
nem; of the annuity for any reason, or under any circum-
stances. His Highness's conduct, while in this country,
was such as entitled him to the highest respect in every
way; and he (Lord Althorp) was sure the House would
listen to no project brought fer the purpose of depriving
him absolutely of the annuity settled upon him, especially
is he had parted with the whole of it willingly,
excepting such as was admitted by the Honourable
Member himself to be continued namely, the cha-
rities and pensions to servants. He (Lord Althorp)
could appr,ciate the feelings which dictated to the
Prince the propriety of keeping up his late residence at
Claremont—(Hear, hear)—and by the lease of Marl-
borough house he was bound to keep it in repair during
the currency of the lease, but that had nearly expired,
which would considerably reduce the sum required to
carry the intentions of the donor into execution. The
trustees would do all in their power to reduce the expen-
diture, and he hoped the House would therefore not con.
cider it necessary to take any further steps regarding it.
He (Lord Althorp) was not aware, at the time Prince
Leopold left this country, of the amount of the incums
brances; but he did not feel inclined to retract what he
hid then said on the subject of his Highness's generosity,
because it appeared that these incumbrances were larger
than he expected.
Mr. COBBETT said it was true that Prince Leopold
was given the annuity in question by Act of Parliament,
but that grant was accompanied by another Act, which
made him a denizen of this country. But there was an-
other Act of Parliament, which declared it to be unlawful
fur any man, who was not a natural born subject, to re-
ceive, or rather for the Government to give, any such
person a pension out of the revenue of the country. The
legal question then was, was Prince Leopold a subject of the
King of this country. It was true be was made a denizen
by that Act, but now be was an independent prince, and
was not a subject; and it was, therefore, unlawful to al.
low him any pension or annuity out of the pockets of the
people of this country. The law by which the Hanoverian
family held the crown declared it to be unlawful. Then,
if the House considered the equity of the thing, where, be
should like to know, was the equity of allowing such a
pension? The amount of that pension was really enor-
mous. Great complaints were made—and made with
justice—by those engaged in agricultural employment, of
the oppressiveness of the poor rates. Wtry, the pension of
Prince Leupold amounted to a greater sum than the entire
poor rates of several of the counties of England, and it was
half as much as the poor rates of the c,unty of Northurn-
berlrnd and the other largest and most populous counties
of England. He (Mr. Cobbetr) would ask the House
whether the people of this country were to continue to
toil and sweat to pay this pension to the King of Belgium
—a pension amounting to 20,0001. per annum. There
was another consideration of great importance connected
with this question, which was this, that it was much
higher in amount than Parliament, at the time of agreeing
to it, intended it to he. It was, indeed, all circumstances
considered, nearly twice as much as the Legislature is-
tended it to be. He (Mr. Cobtiett) would ask the House
whether, when there was so much distress and misery in
the eountry owing to the pressure of taxation, and other
cruses, it was nut preposterous to grant such a pension?
He was almost inclined to move, as an amendment, that it
was inexpedient in the present state of the country to con-
tinue such pension ; but he would not do it. He wished,
however, with all his heart, that some other Hon. Member
would move such an amendment, and in that case he (Mr.
C.) would most cheerfully secorol it.—(A laugh.)
Colonel EVANS said that the private character of the
King of Belgium was most exemplary, and entiled him
to 411 respect; but he nevertheless thought it a fit subject
for inquiry, and he should like to have the opinion of
some eminent lawyer on the point, whether there was
such a person as Prince Leopold now in existence.—(A
laugh.) The reason why he threw out that hint was for
the purpose of ascertaining whether or not it was lawful
in Parliament to issue out yearly so large a sum of money
in the shape of a pension to that individual. It had been
attempted to establish a parallel between this case and that
of France granting pensions to French officers residing in
this country ; but he (Colonel Evans) maintained there
was a decided distinction between the cases, inasmuch as
the French officers were still t t be considered in the service
of the King of France; Whereas Leopold was no longer a
subject of Great Britain. Before sitting down be must
say that it was a question which ought to be duly consi-
I dered by the House, whether the pension which this

country paid to the King of Belgium, ought to be any
cont.nued.

Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY had, on a previous occa-
sion, given notice of a motion which he intended to sub-
mit to the House, to the effect that the whole of the
circumstances connected with the annuity granted by this
country to Prince Leopold should be re-considered by ,
it. Nothing had since that time occurred—certainly
nothing that evening—which had the least tendency
to induce him to forego that motion.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile thought, indeed, he could not do better than
brine it forward that evening. He (Sir S. Whalley)
.could beg to ask the Noble Lord (Lord Althorp)—and
he would also beg the House to ask him—whether, whet)
the pension in question was original y granted by the
Legislature to Prince Leopold, the House ever contern-
p!ated such a contingency as that which bad since then
occurred? He would ask the Noble Lord whethe-, if
when Prince Leopold was elevated to the dignity of the
Throne of Belgium, he had signified his intention of con.
tinuing, as before, to draw his annuity from this country,
Parliament would not have decided that that annuity
should no longer continue to he pant? His Majesty had
undertaken to pay all Prince Leopold's private debts in
this country ; and he therefore thought that, on all these
grounds, the inquiry lie proposed should be m ide into all
the circumstances connected with the annuity ; and he
thought the present time was the proper one for such
inquiry.
Lord ALTHORP here made an observation, which we
understood to he to the effect, that the reason why his
Majesty had taken on himself to pay Prince Leopold's
private debts was, that the trustees had refused to act,
unless such debts were pail.
Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY resumed—ln the second
letter, which t,e Noble Lord had read to the House from
Pi ince Leopold's Secretary, it was said that be (the Kine
of Belgium) would retain funds in his own hands until his
outstanding debts were paid. He (Sir Samuel Whalley)
thought the trustees should wait until those debts were
paid before consen•ing to act. He had always understood
that Prince Leopold had been very saving in his habits—
that he had that economy in his expenditure which the
Scotch call prudence.—(A laugh.) He was, therefore,
not prepar.d for the fact that he (Prince Leopold) had
ascended the throne of Belgium so deeply steeped in debt,
as it appeared from the admissions made that evening he
was. He (Sir Samuel Whalley) thought that under all the
circutnstances of the cote, it was due to the Noble Earl at
the head of his Majesty's Government, to the people of
England, and to the King of Belgium himself, that an
inquiry should be instituted. He would, therefore, move
that a Committee be appointed to inquire into the cir-
cumstances connected with the annuity granted to Prince
Leopold, in terms of the motion of which he (Sir Samuel
Whalley) hail previously given notice.
The SPEAKER thought it irregular on the part of the
Honourable Member to move, as an amendment to a sp• cific
!notion, a motion of which he ha,; himself given pre-
vious notice.

The amendment consequently fell to tlto ground.
Colonel EVANS (as we und_rtood him) begged to
ask the Noble Lord opposite, whether he intended to take
the opinion of Counsel as to whether or not it was legal
to continue to pay the annuity granted to Prince Leopold,
under the altered circumstances of the case?

Lord ALTHORP did not, as he entertained no doubt
whatever as to the legality of the thing.
Mr. HUME hail great dtiubts as to whether any person
not a subject of the British Crown was entitled to receive a
pensitin from this country. The House, at the time the
pension was originally granted, could never have enter-
tained the remotest conception of the possibility of such a
contingency ozcurring a• that which had since then taken
place. The House, therefore, in his (%Jr. Hume's)
opinion, ought most certainly to reconsider what it had
tone in the case in qu,stion. This would be only doing
justice to all the parries concerned in the matter.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not rise for the purpase
of taking any part in the discussio❑ which had taken
place on this subject, but merely to say, that if doubts
were entertained as to the legality of continuing to pay 0 e
pension, the Hon. Member for Middlesex would have an
opportunity of raising the qut-stion of such legality on a
future occasion. Although no direct charge had been
made against the character of the King of Belgium, so
much had been said tin the subject of his expenditure, in
the way of sneers and insinuations, that he (Lord John
Russell) thought it ne essary to say, that when lie had
relinquishe.l his claim for 30,0001. out of the 50,0001.
granted him by Parliament, ►t was unfair to refuse tom
the remaining 20:000/. He hoped that when a regular
mo-ion was made to witlobtaw this remaining part of
Prince Leopold's pension, the House would take that op-
portunity of expressing its sense of his honourable cha-
racter.

Mr. GILLON was very much surprise I to hear from
the statement which had that ev.-niiig been made by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the debts of the King
of Belgium mould amount to SO large a sum, and tie
was sure the statement would exci e great dis-atisfaction
in the country. He boi,ed that when the matter cline
regularly before. the Hou.e for its consideration, the qu,s-
don would then be decided, whether or not tit? pension to
Prince Leopold should continue to be paid by this
country.
_ _

Mr. ROBINSON could not omit taking that oppor-
tunity of saying, that the answer of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer was anything but satisfactory. He should like
to know who were the parties responsible for the 135,0001.
referred to, which it was now proposed to apply in the
manner pointed out. 'fee Noble Lord had said, that any
proposition, if made, to deprive Prince Leopold of his
pension, would be scouted by the Him... He (Mr. Bo-
nins;in) must admit that rimy things were scouted by that
House w,ich were nevertheless just and proper in them.
selves. But were they to be told that such a proposition
as that he had referred to, would, if made, be scouted by
the House? He would ask Honourable Members who
ther, if such a circumstance as the elevation of Prince
Leopold to the throne of Belgium had been anticipated at
the time the pension was originally granted, such a
grant would ever have been made with the intention
of its being continued after siich elevation had taken
place ? A proposition to discontinue that pension
when Prince Leopold was raised to the Belgian
throne, had that elevation been foreseen, would never
have b: en scouted by the House.—(Hear, bear.) If the
country should be satisfied with the answer given by the
Noble Lord, be (Mr. Robinson) must repeat that lie was
not satisfied, and lie hoped the question would soon be
taken up by the House. Before sitting down, he must
take the opportunity of saying, that as the trustees had
refused to act, others ought to be appointed in their place,
with security that the money should be duly appropriated
to its destined purposes. The money might all have bean
pocketted. He begged, in conclusion, to disclaim all in-
tention of using any unbecoming expression in the remarks
he had thought it his duty to make.
After a remark or two by Mr. HARDY, the motion
was put and agreed to.
Mr. WALLACE postponed the motion of which he
bad given notice for that evening, in consequence of the
absence of a friend who felt interested in the subject.
EXPENSES OF ELECTIONS.

- -
Mr. HUME then rose to bring forward his motion re-
lative to the expenses of elections. The law of Ettgland
originally not only refused to allow any Member to be
put to any election expenses, but provided for his being
paid for his attendance in Parliament. He (Mr. Hume)
regretted the case was not the some now. To pity a
Member for his Pat liamentary services was the sure way
make him responsible. At present there were no limits
to the expenses to which candidates were subjected at
elections. He thought that, at all evens, the expenses
which could be incurred ought to be limited and defined.--
(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member then submittoi
a variety of statements to the House relative to the expenses
incurred at the last election, fur booths, fees to the Re-
turning Officers, Clerks, &e. fhe entire number of
electors registered in England and %Vales was 592,214.
This was exclusive of those which were registered in more
than one place, and also of those in places from which no
returns had been made. Altogether be (Mr. Hume)
thought the number of registered electors could not be
much under one million. The entire expenses incurred
in the way be bad mentioned, at the last election,
in England and Wales alone, amounted to 21,937 E
for counties, and to 26,1431. for boroughs. In the county
of Lincoln, where the number of electors was 9,134, and
the candidates three, the expense was 1,0651. ; in the
Eastern Division of Surrey the electors were 3,150, the
candidates four, and the expense 1871. ; in Lancashire
the electors numbered 10,039, the candidates were three,
and the expenses 5461. In Berkshire the electors amounted
to 5,582, the candidates were three in number, and the
expenses amounted to 752/. In Cornwall the electors
numbered 4,462 ; there was no contest, and yet the ex-
pense was 351. The Hon. Gentleman mentioned one or
two other cases of counties, showing not only how extra-
vagant the expenses were in some cases, but the great
disparity that existed betseen those expenses in different
places. In the boroughs, again, the same foct of extrava-
gance and disparity was also illustrated. In the borough
of Abingdon, though there were 300 electors, and there
were three candidates, there was no charge at all. In
Buckingham, with the some number of electors and the
s sine number of candidates, the expense was 331. In
Bristol the electors were 10,000, the candidates four, and
the expense 6741. In Finsbury, where the electors were

10,809, and the candidates five, the expense amounted
'0 484/. In the city of London, with a constituency of
18,584, and six candidates, the expense amounted t
5221. In Westminster, with its 11,576, and three can-
didates, the expense was 3621. In Plymouth, where there
was no contest, the expense incurred was 1301 In another
l'or"ugh) where there was no contest, the expense was
109/. ; while in Andover, Cardigan, Dartmouth, Ludlow,
and another borough, there was no expense at all. The
Hon. Gentleman, after expressing a hope that the House
would compel those places that had not complied with its
orders to make the desired returns of the expenses in-
curred in the way referred to at the last election, to do so
forthwith, proceeded to point out the way in which such
expenses were incurred. There were Sheriffs, Under
Sh"iffs) Clerks, &c., all of whom made charges on the
different candidates for their labours on the occasion of an
election. The charges made by Under Sheriffs were
often very great. He (Mr. Hume) questioned very
much whether they should be allowed to make any charge
at all.—(Hear, hear.) They were appointed for the per•
forrnance of duties connected with their several counties,
and that of attending at elections, and regulating
their proceedings he conceived was one. Assessors were, in
some instances, allowed large sums, and constables, or po
'icemen, were paid for keeping the peace. In the county
of Cardigan the sheriffs actually charged the candidates
201. for silver thrown among the people.—(Loud laugh-
ter.) In Bedford, all the irregularities he (Mr. Hume)
had mentioned, had occurred.—( A laugh.) This, he
maintained, was contrary to law. The 71st section of the
Bill brought i❑ by the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell)
relative to a reform in Parliament, limited the expense of
elections in each parish to 231. The sheriff was to be al-
lowed 2/. 2s. per day for his labour!, and the clerk 11 1,.
The enormous expenses which bad been charged against
candidates in certain cases, were claimed by the returning
officers on the ground of some previous Act of Parliament,
just as if all former Acts of Parliament were not, in the
question of electioneering expenses, set aside by the Bill of
the Noble Lord (Lord John Russel:). He trusted that,
under the circumstances he bad stated, the House would
consent to the appointment of a Committee on the subject.
It was highly desirable that every man who became a can-
didate should know, in the first instance, the extent of his
liabilities ; and that he might not, consequently, br im-
posed upon by other persons after the election was over.
The expense attending elections must, it wits clear, be at
all events reduced. He (Mr. Hone) bad been informed,
that it was not necessary to have new booths at every suc-
cessive election, but that they could be made at the ex-
pense at present charged for them to last a lifetime. Let
the Home only decree that the different counties ought to
he at the expense of fitting up these booths and the other
things necessary at elections, and he (Mr. Hume) would
answer for it, there would he no unnecessary expenditure
in such cases in future.—(Hear, bear.) In Middlesex
alone, the booths had cost the candidates 600/. He
Imp d the few hints he had thrown out to the House
would not be lost to Hon. Members, but be committed to
memory, wzainst the time for formally deliberating on the
subject. Toe Hon. Member was then about to read his
motion, which related only to England and Wales, when
Mr. GILLON suggested th it it should include Scot-
land and Ireland also.

Mr. HU3IE had no objection to make kis motion ge-
neral. He then moved " That the House refer to a Se-
l=et Committee, the retums of expenses charged by
returning officers at the election Of Members for Counties
and Boroughs in England and Wales, and in Scotland and
Ireland, at the last general election, with the view of fixing
an uniform rate of charge ; and also to inquire into all
other expenses attendant on the registration of votes, and
at the elections."

Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY sec mded the motion. He
most cordialy agreed with the Hon. Member fur Mid-
dbsex, that the txpenses of elections should be defrayed
by the country at large. The conclusion among the
people, or at I, ast among a lar:ze portion of the people.
was, that when Members paid such large sums, in the
shape of election expenses, for a seat in that House, they
would take care of themselves when the public money was
votid away. It was expected that t':e 71st section of the
Reform Bill would hive done great good in reference to
the expenses of elections. But the returns, _which the
Hon. Member for Middlesex had read to the House showed
that the provisions of that Bill were quite imfficient. His
(Sir S untie! Whalley's) only regret was, that instead of
moving for a seect committee to examine the expenses
charged by returning officers at the last general election,
he did not at once move fur a specific Act of Parliament
on the subject.
The following Committee was appointed :
Hume. Joseph O'Connell, D. Donkin, Sir R.
Russell, Lord J. Morpeth, Viscount Goring, H. D.
Lefevre, C. S. Aglionby, H. A. Godson, R.
Wallace, R. Rice, T. S. Gillon, W. D.
Jervis, J. Littleton, E. J. Sinclair, G.
Knatchbull, Sir E. Murray, J. A. Jeffrey, Rt. Hon. F.
Carter, J. B. Harvey, D. W. Oswald, J.
Ferguson, Sir Ron. Guest, J. J. O'Dwyer, A. C.
Ewart, W. Clay, W. Wallace, T.
"1 ayleure, W. Walter, J. Grattan, H.
Molesworth, Sir W. Tennyson, C. Ruthven, S.
Hall, B. Tooke, W. Blake, J. M.
Sanford, E. A. Willoughby, Sir H.
.ON

MEDICAL EDUCAT

Mr. WARBURTON moved that a select committee
should he appointed to inquire into tha various branches
of the medical profession. . .

•
Colonel WOOD opposed the motion, as he thought
any inquiry into the subject was unnecessary; and thought
that the time of the thirty.five gentlemen, whose names he
had seen down for the Committee, might very well be
'pared. He saw no i:eeessity for shutting up these gen
tlemen for a month or six weeks in a room, just as the
session was beginning too. The C immictee would,
besides this, cost the country some 4004 or NU for
printing an account of their proceedings, which no one
would read, or be edified by it if he did.
An HON. MEmaxa, whose name we could not learn,
thought the House could not be better employed than in
correcting the abuses which had crept into the Medical and
Surgical Monopolies.
Mr. SINCLAIR ob.erved that he could answer for the
Scotch Licentiates in Medicine, that they desired nothing
more than an inquiry into their regulations.
Mr. GILLON thought that it was quite as necessary to
institute a searching inquiry into the medical monopoly as
into any other monopoly ; and he should heartily support
the motion for a Committee.

Mr. LITTLETON could say, that when he was lately
in Dublin he could perceive in that quarter a perfect wil
lingness to aequie.ce in an equalization of privilege..
Mr. O'DWYER considered it very hard that privileges
should thus be monopolised, and that physicians would not
be allowed torlisoense medicine without bringing themselves
under the penalties of the Apothectaies Act, which, on
but too many oeca.ions, was most rigorously enforced.
Mr. RUTHVEN was of opinion (as well as we could
catch his observations) that surgeons were sufficiently
qualified for this branch of the art.
Mr. HUME thought it unhecom;ng to require that
gentlemen avowedly well qualified before should late com-
pelled to undergo an apprenticeship of three or four years
to bring themselves within the law, and spend that time,
perhaps, in the most slavish and laborious part of the
business. For himself, be would undertake to say that he
was as competent as any apothecary in London.--(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He would ask the Gallant Colonel,
if exchanging into a new regiment, he should not feel it
very hard if compelled to enter as an Ensign. In these
sort of regulations we were far behind the Continent.
Indeed, compared with France, we were in a state of bar-
barism.

Mr. WARBURTON, in reply, observed that the fault
lay in the system. He did not blame the present men,
whose object, he believed, was to exalt the standard of
qualification.
The question was then put, and the following Com-
mittee appointed :
Warburton, H. Halford, H.
Howiek, Lord Lewis, T. F.
Jeffrey, Rt. Hon. F. Hawes, W.
Littleton, E J. O'Connell, D.
Inglis, Sir R. H. ;lice, T. S.
Goulburn, H. Peel, Sir R.
Shaw, F. Hume, Joseph
Abercromby, Right lay, W.
Hon. J. Clve, R. H
Oswald, J. Ewart, W.
Bannerman, A. Peter, W.
Johnstone, A.

Strutt, E.
Romilly, E.
Whitmore, W. W.
Wood, G. W.
Ord, W.
Gillon, W. D.
Sinclair, G.
Baldwin, Mr.
Oxmantown, Lord
Perrin, Sergeant
Jephson, C. D. 0.

BOROUGH OF STAFFORD.
Sir T. FREMANTLE brought forward his motion for
the disfranchisement of the borough of Stafford. He
admitted that the elective franchise should not be taken
away from any man, or any body of men, without full
and satisfactory reasons, but he contended, that in this
instance, the reasons were sufficiently satisfactory.
Houses were opened by both candidates in which the
names of such voters as had received money were taken
down in writing ; and out of the whole constituency, it
appeared that four-fifths had been paid. The corruption
was so general, that it could
donvtonetoo tr
inferiorbeio
ub smrl
iyen ttgcoobirynrt
uahanpa yßtt
boroughs;oi
ol tl
fh eGf
fur
rrtah tmha than
the severe remedy recommended in the report. Indeed,
s
tlpihoee,u
pound,
reo,
firo,far tmaofffo
v3trehtlie
owftoialrse
rl
en
disfranchisement of the borough of Stafford.

Mr. HALCOMB opposed the Bill on the ground that
the evidence concerning the corruption was not givtn

on oath.

Ao HoN. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn,
and who spoke from under the gallery, assured the Hon.
Baronet, that one of the witnesses who gave evidence

admitted that the list of persons given in as receiving
bribes was a tissue of for-2,-ciry trout be,i,inning to end.
Lord ALTHORP said, that when notorious corruption
was proved, is would be the duty of the House to disfran-
chise the borough.—(Hear, hear.) An must admit, that
from the reform which hail taken place in the representa-
tion, such practices could not continue, and the system of
corrupt bo'oughs must be put an end to.
Sir T. FREMANTLE replied to the observations con-
cerning the forgery, s4yiniz that the original list was not to
be had, the person who /IA received it to copy out having
retained it in his posse.sion, and only returned the copy.
Leave was then granted.

Lord HOWICK, in bringing forward his Bill for ren-
dering more effectual proceedings before Justices of the
Peace, observed that, being similar to the one which he
had brought before the House last year, he should not
trouble them with any observations, hut. confine himself
to stating that one of its objections was to technical difficul-
ties. The object of one important clause was to relieve
the public from the annoyance of common informers. As
the law now stood, the minimum, penalties were compul
sory upon Magistrates, and it was one of the objects of
the Bill to give them a power of mitigation. Another
clause related to the nuisance of gaming-houses in London.
To these he could see no objection that might be raised, iir
if there were any, they could be urged in a future stage.
He would therefore beg leave, &c.
Mr. JARVIS did not intend to oppose the measure,
but conceived that it conferred on M igistrates a discre-
tionary power of which they already possessed too much,
and instanced that of five shillings for drunkenness, with
incarceration if the fine was not paid.
Lord HOWICK said the propusition the Hon. Member
appeared now abont to argue was not contained in the Bill.
Discussion would come better at a future stage, when it
would he so modified as to meet objections.
An Hon. MEMBER objected to the Bill, that it dis
pensed with information on oath, leaving to the accusing
party all the latitude of complaint which this want of re-
straint and his excited feelings may prompt.
Mr. O'CONNELL said there was one part of the Bill
apparently fair in its object, and which it might appear
mid to oppose—he meant the doing away with technicali-
ties which sometimes involved the merits.
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. Evart, and
Mr. Ruthven, leave was eiven.
PUBLICITY OF DIVISIONS.
Mr. WARD rose to bring on his motion for giving
greater publicity to the divisions of the House. He had
undertaken this subject with the permission of the Hon.
Member for Colchester, who had had the merit of intro-
ducing it during the last session of Parliament ; and in
doing so he requested the indulgence of the House for
bringing the question so early under its reconsideration.
One reason for doing this was that he believed justice was
not done to the motion on the former occasion : he did not
mean by the Hon. Member for Colchester, whose talents
lie admired, but by the House, whose attenton was
then occupied by the consideration of many other,
and apparently more immediately important changes.
They now stood in a very different situation, and
he most sincerely trusted that it would now meet with
the attention which it deserved. In his opinion its adop-
tion or rejec ion would have a very material influence on
the character and prospects of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
In calling upon the House to give publicity to its divi-
sions, he did not call on it to pl ice itself in coininunica -
Lion with the press, but merely this—that there should
be daily placed on the table of the House an accurate
record of the votes of every Member for and against every
question. On referring to the debate which took place
on the motion of the Hon. Member for Colchester, he
found that the objections made to the proposition might
be reduced to three. First, the impracticability of the
plan proposed by the Hon. Member that objection was
made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as the sale
reason of his opposition. The second was, the inex-
pediency of enforcing any responsibility at all, which was
made by the Node Lord the Member for Norwich (Lord
Stormont). The third was, that there was already a
sufficient degree of practical publicity and responsibility,
which was the argument of the Ri ht Hon. Baronet
the Member for Tainworth. The Noble Lord on tee
Treasury Bench did not object to the publication of the
divisions generally, but objected merely to the specific
plan proposed by the Hon. Member as impracticable.
This objection could not apply to his (Mr. Ward's) tiro
tion, because be would propose no specific plan. He
would not draw off the 'attention of the House from the
great principle on which his motion was founded by the
consideration of minor particulars At the same time he
thouget it right to say that he would not have occupied
their time by the consideration of a plan which lie did not
firmly believe could be reduced to practice. He had a
plan by which he did not doubt that an accurate list of
every gentleman's votes might be taken without the loss
of five minutes' time.—(Hear, hear.) Some Hon. Gen-
tlemen appeared to doubt the possibility of this. He was
perfectly willing to suggest the method.—(No, no; and
Hear, hear.) The reason why he mentioned this was,
because be bad been told that to bring forward this motion
without stating any plan, would be as bad as to bring
forward and state an impracticable one. He would,
therefore, if the House wished it, relate his plan —(Loud
cries of "No, no !" and " Plan, plan !") As it rather
appeared to he the. feeling of the House that he should
not enter into detail, he would refrain from doing so.
Toe principle on which he based his motion, was the in-
contestible, unalienaltle rights of those Who sent then
there to receive from them an authentic account of their
transactions—(Hear, hear)—and to know on the au-
thority of their own minutes the way in which they dis
charged the duties which they hail undertaken. On tee
last occasion this principle was impugned by the Noble
Lord the Member tor Norwich, who he was sorry not to
see in his place. The Noble Lord said, that every Member
of that House ought to represent his own opinions ; that
no man appointed to the House ought to be influenced in
his votes by the actions of others ; that no Member of
the House ought to be pulled up the next morning for
giving a certain vote overnight; and that, in short, he
ought not to be responsible for his vote. tie would thus
far agree with the Noble Lord, that every Member of
that House ought to have the most perfect freedom of
agency, but he differed from bin Coto cix/o as to the
question of responsibility. He looked on responsibility as
the very essence of representative government, and
without publicity, responsibility could nut exist.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) It was publicity alone, as Mr. Jeffer-
son justly said, that supplied the check which prevented
society from being divided into two extreme classes, the
wolves and the sheep. Fortunately for us, the wolves
were at pre,ent at a discount, and the sheep were too
wise to part even with their fleece, unless something
like good cause were first shown. The Right Honourable
Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, slid that we already
had responsibility, or publicity (for the two words were
synonymous) enough. That on every occasion of interest
to the constituents, the votes of Members were perfect y
well known, and consequently that there was no necessity
for departing from the established practice. To a certain
extent this argument might be good. There was indeed
a sort of half and half responsibility. Their respec: for
public opinion compelled them to take some measures
of publicity, which to a certain extent compromised the
character and d.gnity of the House. Ho had, after an
important division, seen no less than nineteen letters in
a Morning Paper on the same day—some explanatory,
some exculpatory, some accounting fur absence, but all
calling on the Editor:to correct some inaccuracy—an inac
curacy not only unintentional, but, considering the manner
in which the lists were now obtained, altogether unavoid-
. able.—(Hear.) Another objection of the Right Hon. Bart.
to further publicity was that a very erroneous opinion might
be formed of a public mats, by founding it on one particular
vote. 'Phase who read the debates would not be deceived,
but would understand them better in consequence of having.
an accurate list of votes, whilst those who looked only at the
list of votes would be prevented from forming many very
untrue conclusions. Besides, however well a Member of
that House might speak, it was by his votes he was judged
at last.—(Hear, hear.) It was to his votes that he must
appeal for public confidence, and whilst speeches were
forgotten, votes were always tangible. There was one
class of Members to whom he Would take the liberty of
trddressinga few observations ; he alluded to the old Mem-

bers—to those who were attached to old forms, who were
reluctant to see any change in,roduced, and who still
clung to the strict privacy of divisions. To them he would
say, that he should be the first to resist any proposition
for permitting strangers to be present during a divisii n.
since, on questions of deep interest, it might be impossible
to restrain some expressions of public feeling calcula,ed,
perhaps, in some measure to influence their decisions.—
(Hear.) This lie did not seek; all that he sought was
to remove the anomalies which at present existed, and
to correct a point where theory and practice were at
variance.—(Hear, hear.) He could conceive no reason
why a record should not be preserved of so important
a portion of their proceedings—in which, indeed,
their characters were concerned—when all other parts
of their procee pings were recorded and published
without scruple. More especially did this argument
apply, when it was remembered that strict secrecy
was impossible.—(Hear.) They were not in the French
Chambers, where votes were taken by ballot. Secrecy
here was impossible ; anti if it were possible, it would be
)beliTevneeretowbaes
soinnlceyroeneincluthstoi!
Members
beperranwicihoooms.—be(wHoeualrd.

opposition to the publication—lie meant the habitual ttb' I
sentee-.—( Hear, beer.) He could conceive their dislike i
to their frequent absences being placed on record,
but he 1,
was sure that those (by far the majority) who were im-
pressed with a due sense of the important duties of
their e
situation, womb e f
! not for a moment entertain so unwortbti
an objection. To such he would say, grant a Committei
if, on investigation, the scheme should he found imprahc-;
ticable without incurring too great a loss of time,
let t (3;
Committee so rep•irt, and there would be an end
be of the.
que.eien. But if, as he believed, publicity could
he bora
oh••
tainerl at a very trifling sacrifice of time, then
they would not permit such a sacrifice to interfere withal,
great a good as the publication of an authentic list of
t
divisions. He should, therefore, move the apponten,
of a Select Committee, to inquire into the best mode !,1
obtaining correct and authentic lists of the divisions ln
t:td,vl
iiaaittnpsAet
elosoidHrnffs. ,ii,tgistllthootrswauerAentloidew;tut:
railr3E,:nie:dspi
I:p:tees:l
ipie:ta:snu,tiorai,dBs,:ndautif,dffi,necied(hd,l_si:.tee,toniwo:considered
ht,tionhn,
,Committeetsnahtiditta,
itiatot,rethneeeo:svafwheutptorhtibuy,thliiebslengdihrHiecai.bnta:yhettnieoje.aofii‘einstructedqi:aivonetisfrora:vivint
bee,ihch,l::3o;if
to report thereon, without delay.—(l-"ud cheers') d
fvhooort,eaCdteiat,l..gclalienAssietrnt.hoe Hpaaep,
tpii:vivanistamrmast anxious that the lists ° ,
considered to do so on the dislike to
going before the public.—(Hear.) :
eapurlotaunonfdawoaCfsonincm'wittePer°Psch;:oht;t:
N.
Lord ALTHORP said his Hon. Friend bad done
justice in saying that he had merely p o posed the trod°,
of the Hon. Member for Colchester on the question of illii,
practicability. He never objeeted to the publicatioo of
divisions; and be certainly thought that, if they wteerlX
published, the more correctly the better.—(Cheers.),;;..'
certainly felt great doubt that his Hon. Friend Wow" ,-- i 7
His Hon. ohna.venbieeennd
ahavrelrnyont
esatratdedivihsiiosnp
able to produce a plan that was likely to be practicableT
and he believed, had the question been put, thefer;.
he should tr.
have done so or not. lie confessed that he should 1301.
been glad to have heard what it was, for he had!:
great opinion of the ability of his Honourable Frieoor' .
lwanhettohetrhe 11("e;k:
and had no doubt it was a very ingenious one. Writil-•
respect to the motion itself, lie could have no objection te,
it—(Loud cheers)—and he should be happy if the reso'r
lutions of the Committee should be such as to lead to *Orr
practical result. He certainly thought that every Membeffi
must be responsible for the way in which he voted, an
•.
as to the argument that a man on a certain occasion might
vote differently from his general opinions, in order tele
support some particular line of policy, he did not confide!. ',:
it a sufficient objection, because such a circumstance co!! '4,
not occur frequently ; and when it did, was suseep_i
of explanation, and would always meet with doe 11100.7
ante and consideration. He did not, however, think ts:,
present mode so objectionable as gentlemen seemed r, :
imagine. He did not believe the lists now published 1°,,.
be very inaccurate. He was aware that during the Is!,
a theosoer
sessiiin they were so, but the great number of new
Me
.19; ,
accurate
for that circumstance.—(blear.) But whether theY Were,:
means being taken to make them as accurate as past a
If, however, it should appear that this could not beg Id
fancoets,whteerecenrotatikninTn, very naturelly account,:
without incurring a gi eat loss of time, then be °utb .
certainly say th,t the objet to he attained was not World •
'He tUt(A)I the
e expressedteto t►i
motion.—(Hear.) —h his Eiger:eauarit: gratification haven
no
bajtect et je°ll
in which the motion had been met by be shoo'
such a sacrifice. Heving made this statement,
h 00/
notmort.ij
posite. The Noire Liird had said that the former firgetire
was correct, hut he had not taken into consideration Ili"
great labour which it threw on certain individuals.
both
Noble Friend knew how difficult it was to coon' ite to
sides of the House. For his own part he did not It ._ f
ould refer
go on both sides.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He w paajoai
only to what hid taken place during the Present 5- The
There had been only two divisions published yet' tithe
first of these was so incorrect, that he believed It the
Members put down in it on one side were pot. f
House that evening, and it had required the grewato ~
labour and trouble on the part of five Members to . e, t
the ins
it correct, but the first evil bad been rlone, for ~ -,
As to Woo
curate list had gone throughout the country.
A Would 80d!
he thou ht the plan that ought to be Adepten- .to slie ...
the Noble Lora
sa
time, whilst it would give the greatest satisfactioin f-,
otp/ht t
,oateb 0
the greatest advantaees of the system now
, country. And as to the absentees. he th
proposenteeeir
it would expose to the country those who neglectea b"
duty.—( Hear.) hleh 11"
Mr. D W. HARVEY defended the way in iv- ota
dropped his motion last session, and said uolese a 10 !
oSaintdiOnhetohmopeeedt wheititinitghhetahtatevoetiotin,
ciotenginratrtiuoisetlcteeld,
belonged to one of the great parties in that 11°Ilie:gee$3
could not. had Ire even the tongue of an ang,l, e.-I,flto '
Mr. WARBlllTONrerseugia...rdHedethis
rite deserve.t.
udirelepd:e.nlasangort,.asturaendit
itnvpasorntoant
tthriewetn,
phoiligtar"n tit,
lookedmo t uponimotion
asi:s°, h etiidifli;ll;
Ipieorseedo,fwahrernanagitnugeeatinpgian wast
[Louse on its successful
instesialP°llll°.'-efir.
as one of the most important results of the Reform Pt .
~1
regarded the good c induct of its Members. He re"-"
for tbeinr 0
in the defeat of the Tory Ministry,—he remember': rid 1.
the greatest import ince was attached t° la r.
hah't'isdvaast eti:epeCcht;dinbtectr.tevri;:detert i.
acciirete lists of tie division, and the individteds
oft t,
again charted to spare no pains to make them
and rte the task of obtaining them, were over and., li
purest 0
admitted the impertance of acetracy
this were felt so important to the reforming ,neieste
in ttese pan
te '
the eve of such a division—if all great lodic° 13,`-culare, ;.-
it we, urged OO
ghruewatewst
which the public. as well as tlierwielvea, att. ' that till° (
Where wastheir :,
aismiptorttl:enyceh?ad
Bsout,lotnhgend;elayed obtainiogoed th, -,
gre it result could not be accomplished.
diffieulty ? It was most mechanical. Could "t 03010 I,'
clerks go from bench to bench, and take down the nit 0 :
and if these clerks were not sufficiently nullncr°°!: let
them pay another ; and if one were not enough, the'dif, U:'
them get two, three, or even four. Where was the I
ficulty? cotali f
The motion was then agreed to, and the folloWieg
mittee appointed:—
Ward, H. G. Hume, Joseph
Althorp, Viscount Chandos, Marquis of Clay, VV. ,;,.JOlO
Peel, Sir R WAnirton H. Sebrigh, sir
Inglis, Sirlß. H. Stanley, E. J. G. Carter, J.
Inglis,
Grote, 0. Hay, A. L. HarveY, ~,,*
Hawes, B. Benett, John Tooke, ,A. „
Fergusson, Sir Ron. O'Connor Don AglionbY,
FACTORIES BILL. see°
'll
reej
The Factories' Regulation Act Amendment litt
through a Committee. The report was received sod lig or
to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third 0°
morrow.
TURNPIKE ROADS BILL. „oil.
The House went into a Committee on the rrtlfri
Road Acts Continuance Bill. r debt
Mr. HAWES, after stating the great increase 0' eresi
of the various turnpike trusts, which had taken place ' of
1821 to 1829, wished to know if it was the inteati°°lo
his Majesty's Government to introduce a general 00-
on
Ltiii:erdsul Viscount 1 eat?
unt HOWICK observed,°t.hCa°tnntehiell' olib.jeCt 14
stpwhal
Eta.
yd.gpl
dereis,hee
expenseni
mt
sten lefoa
impossibles:
iu nrreent
twhe
hlevaasitnsmagu
nbe
yjrieasel
satisfactory
various
to
sah
captor
Turnpikeer yiv oe
n ttei:ithe
nett
se l ul
st
so°
sworm.oreen:Bbtiitritelutmnitiogohetitinti,ieroefb. ,
Dour:.
heLtfuloinspengdeinN(eaGrlatThiloyouasgpl,apihaice:Walueol:lo,rsioi:is ,
ocov?ieeeibt::::
th:VEithasotutssmomitebfideellda
whole of
uocfedthe exemptinguount country.
devised. te''
operation of the Bill. tb°
After a short conversation, the Bill went through to.
Jeep
Committee, and the report was ordered to be rece--
YA be:wove:37o *

morrow.
CARRICKFERGUS AND STAFFORP' 410
Mr. O'CONNELL brought up a Bill to disirl"
th Sir borough of Carrickfergus.
theboTro.uFgßh EJISAuNaTorLdE. brought up a Bill to disfrheattcrob(/
Both B,lls were read a first time, and ordered to ol I
a second time on Wednesday, the sth of Mach)
be printed.
Adjourned at a quarter-past ten.

On Monday addresses wets presenteuAt °f
Beth to his Grace the Archbishop of Canterhult ire°
same import with those presented on Thursday lair'clergl -
the Clergy of the diocese of Llandaff and from the '
,if the Archdeaconry of Cornwall. They were 84°' IV
nearly every officiating Clergyman of these districtaiiclop
ormer were presented, at the express desire of the by
oy the Lord Bishop of Llandaff, and the later oral,
Lord Bishop of Exeter. Trey were received by l'd in in"
with an expression of the saute sentiments contain
-tomer to the addresses already presented, and of tb thett.
r'reti,, lie felt at receiving them from the bands 0;
Lordships.
GLrIsGOW LOTTERY.—We are glad t
:hat some of the prizes Lave chanced to fall in tbi'o!)
hourhood. Mr. Oxenden (son of Sir Henri Ozo,de.
aroome Park) is the fortunate holder of half 0'
Thousand Pound Prize,--Maidstone Gazette.