The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-12 00:00:00

THELLUSON ESTATE BILL.

The Earl of ELDON presented a petition from two
trustees of this estate—we understood from Mr. Sand-
bury and Sir C. Pym—against the projected Bill of the
Chief Baron. The petitioners entreated their Lordshipe
not to be biassed by out-of-door statements with respect
to the expenses of the management of this estate, but to
read the facts of the petition, and then see whether the
trustees were in any fault with respect to the execution
of their trust.

Lord SEAGRAVE had one question to put to the
Noble and Learncd Baron—that question was, whether
the Noble Baron was satisfied as to the state of mind of
one of the two petitioners? He put the question, because
he had heard from a quarter which he would not mention
that Mr. Sandbury (as we heard) was in a state of mental
and bodily imbecility.
The Earl of ELDON happened to know one of the
petitioners, and his mind was in as perfect a state as that
of the Noble person who last addressed the House. With
respect to the other petitioner, be knew him but by name.

Lord SEAGRAVE said if he knew that the Noble
and Learned Baron had intended to present the present
petition, he should have mentioned the circumstance to
him that morning. . . .

Lord LYNDIIMIST begged to state, that he had re-
ceived the same information as to the state of mind of the
individual alluded to ; therefore he considered the petition
as coming from one individual only. It was, however,
his duty to present a petition of a very different nature ;
and lie did so in pursuance of notice, and because the sus-
pension of the standing orders of the House, for which he
should move, required that such a petition should be pre-
sented. On a former night, their Lordships wished for
such a petition, supported by all the adult members of the
Thelluson family. He held in his hand such a petition,
from all the surviving grandsons of the testator. It was
signed by all of them, except Frederick Thelluson ; but
he signed by power of attorney. He would read a letter
from him, however, which was as strong as any signa-
ture. It was dated Florence, June 8, 1833, and addressed
to a Noble Lord of that House. The letter stated that
the writer had heard of a Bill to be introduced by Lord
Lyndhurst, anti to be supported by the Lord Chancellor.
He begged the Noble Lord, to whom the letter was
addressed, to support the Bill, and to use all his influence
to engage other Noble Lords to do the same. He (Lord
Lyndhurst) trusted, therefore, that their Lordships were
satisfied that his Bill had received the consent of all the
adult members of the family, and be consequently hoped
that lie should be allowed to make his motion for the sus-
pension of the standing orders of the House, in order that
he might be enabled to introduce the Bill.
The Earl of ELDON (having consulted, as we per-
cowed, some Noble Lords behind him) stated that tba
petitioner alluded to was in a proper state of mind.
The petitions were laid on the table.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said that two Judges
should be referred to before the Bill could be pro-
ceeded with.
Lord LYNDHURST understood from what had been
said the other evening, that if a petition of the present
description were presented, their Lordships would agree to
the motion for the suspension of the standing orders of
the House. He, therefore, thought it incumbent on him
to make that motion. He had made no charge against the
trustees fp. their conduct in managing the estate, but he
had stated the results of that management, and to those
.exults lie now appealed. He knew nothing of the two peti-
tioners, but be knew that the returns he had laid before
them were from the Court of Chancery, anti were signed
by Mr. Roupel, Mr. Adam, Accountant-General, and
Mr. Rainsford, of the Receipt Office. It appeared by
those returns that out of 24,0001. the annual income
of the estate, 14,0001. a year were spent in the manage-
ment of it. The mere passing of the accounts in the Master's
Office amounted to a charge of 4001. a year. That was done
in one day, in two or three hours, by the Master's Clerk ;
and yet the charge was between 300 and 400 pounds a
year. Now the object of the present Bill was that the
money which now went into the pockets of the lawyers
and of the trustees should go to the benefit of the members
of the farnny.—(Hear,
hear.) With respect to the
Ifroadsworth estate, there was a clause in the testator's
will that the trustees should sell off the furniture, wine,
Sec.—that they should, in fine, dispose of the bulk of the
moveables, and only keep two or three rooms furnished for
the accommodation of the trustees. What did the trus-
tees do? They did not sell a single stick of furniture, and
not a bottle of the wine was disposed of.—(Hear, hear.)
What was worse, they even obtained a grant of 5,0001.
for purchasing additional furniture for Broadsworth.—
( Hear.) He would just call the attention of their Lord-
ships to this establishment, where Sir Charles Pym, who
was an actor in the petition of the Noble and Learned
Baron, sometimes resided. The establishment consisted of
a housekeeper at the rate of 75/. a year ; of a cook, and
three house maids, and all these women were for the use
of one trustee only.—(llear, and a laugh.) There were,
besides, a gardener and an under gardener, two women
and a boy to work in the garden, and a man to work in the
lawn. Moreover, there was a gamekeeper, and when the
trustees were present, there were allowed for expenses
201. a week—he meant purely for housekeeping expenses.
Those expenses,
however, were not kept up to the present
moment.
or The Noble and Learned Lord then alluded V
to a judgment in a matter made by the formerce-
Chancellthe will should receive a different construction, and who
, Sir Anthony Hart, who was of opinion that
made out an order which was to be no precedent, but only
relate to tile present case. That order came before him
(Lord Lyndhurst), and he inimediately reseinded it,
becitusc he thought it contrary to the will of the testator.

( PRICE 7D.)

The c+•e he considered of s ich an iso'ated nature—stand
ing completely by itself—that their Lordships were ii'
duty bound to interpose and remfdy it.
The Earl of ELDON recommended an adherence to
the starniing orders.
Lard LYNDHURST said that a question had been
raised before Sir A. Hirt, when Vice-Chancellor, as to
whether the will of the testator included the grandsons in
the capacity of trustees as well as the sons. On that
occasion a letter was addressed to him by Sir Charles
Pym, with a view to influence his judgment upon that
question.
The Marquis of CONY NGHAM supported the motion
of the Noble Lord.
The Earl of HARROWBY was of opinion that the
usual course of referring to the Judges ought not to be
departed from, and the more especially in the present case.
as there existed a diversity of statement as to matters of
fact.

The Earl of WICKLOW was willing to suspend the
first standing order, but not the second.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM heard no sufficient rea-
son for the suspension of the standing orders.
The Earl of SUFFOLK said a few words, which were
❑ot distinctly audible in the gallery.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY observed, that a refe-
rence to the Judges did not preclude the House from coming
to any subsequent decision they might think proper.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was favourable to
the suspension of the standing orders.
The Earl of MANSFIELD thought there might be
some reason for suspending the standing orders so far as
they related to the number of signatures required to the
petition, but not with respect to the reference of the
Judges.
The question on the suspension of those standing
orders was then put, and the House divided—

Contents
Not-Contents
Majority
The Bill was then brought in by Lord LYNDHURST.
Ordered to be printed, and the second reading fixed for
Monday.
The Select Committee was appointed on the Quakers'
and Moravians' Affirmation Bill.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 11.

The SPEAKER took the chair at a few minutes after five.

A message from the Lords announced that their Lord-
ships had given their assent to the Agricultural Labourers
Bill ; the Corporation Offices Bill, and a number of private
Bills.

Sir R. FERGUSON moved that the Speaker do not
issue his writ for Warwick before Monday, the 22d inst.
Mr. P. THOMSON brought up certain papers rela-
tive to the state of the revenue of the United Kingdom.
Mr. HUME inquired whether the papers embraced the
returns relative to the Colonial Depar:ment?
Mr. P. THOMSON answered in the affirmative, but
stated that they were very imperfectly set forth in conse-
quence of the manner in which they were sent from the
colonies.

Mr. COLQUHOUN brought in a Bill for regulating
the appointment of ministers to churches in Scotland
erected by voluntary contribution. The Bill was read a
first time and ordered to be printed, and to be read a se-
cond time on Tuesday next.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL called the attention of
the House to the verbal amendments made by the Lords in
the Limitation of Actions Bill, and moved that they be
agreed to.
Mr. H. L. BULWER wished before be proceeded with
his motion, to ask whether any Government at present
existed?—(A laugh.)

Lord AhTHORI" smiled and said, Oh ! certainly.—
(A laugh.)
Mr. BULWER then rose. His motion was for the
production of papers respecting the measures pursued by
Russia in her late interference with the state of Turkey.
He took the late expedition of Russia into Turkey as a
wide development of her plan ; and it was worthy of
remark, that on that occasion the authority of Russia, in
the Turkish empire, was independent of Turkish authority.
The Hon. Member then went into a detail of the circum-
stances which preceded the incursion of Mehemet Ali, in
which, from occasional noise in the body of the House, it
was impossible to follow him. On the arrival of
Admiral Roussin, he offered to guarantee the retreat
of Mehemet Ali, provided the Russians were not
permitted to enter the Turkish empire; but on this being
stated to theßussian authorities, they replied that the assis-
tance of Russia bad been demanded, and, baying been conced-
ed, it could not now be declined. And here he must call the
attention of the House to the extreme policy and extraor-
dinary tact of Russia, which placed her force in the very
he irt and centre of an empire which had always regarded
her as a natural enemy. But whilst Russia and France
were thus engaged, England stood by as a mere cypher,
and cut no better figure than a poor petty German State.
He should now state what he deemed the Noble Lord
opposite would feel it incumbent upon him to explain. It
bad been said, that some time previous to the circum-
stances he had narrated, Russia had communicated to this
country, as also had Turkey, theexpectation that Mehemet
Ali would invade the Turkish empire, and that foreign
interference would he necessary to prevent the inroad:
but that England had neglected—and he did not mean
this in an offensive light—to take any steps to prevent
Russia from following up her favourite schemes. And
Russia had thus been put in a position to realize her
hopes. Notwithstanding she bad not availed herself of
the opportunity, be thought the Noble Lord ought
to explain the reason of the inactivity of England.
Since 1776 Russia had acquired possession of not less
than two-thirds of the coast of the Black Sea, and she
had established her commerce throughout that extensive
district. It was clear, therefore, that if things be al-
lowed to continue in their present state without any
interference by the other powers, with the immense power
already possessed by Russia, and the divided and weak
condition of Turkey, the whole of that part of the world
would ultimately fall into the possession of Russia. He
thought, therefore, that the Noble Lord was bound to
give some information as to the line of policy his Majesty's
Government meant to adopt. Russia, it was well known,
was most crafty and intriguing, and her vigilance
in those countries in any corner of which a
revolt occurred was such (like in this instance),
that her large armies were not only despatched, but arrived
at their places of destination, before England knew of
their having started on their mission. He recollected the
saying of a great man, the Emperor Napoleon, when
in exile, that unless Europe looked well after
Russia, in less than fifty years the Cossacks would be
trampling all over Europe. He (Mr. Bulwer) asked
whether it was not the policy of England to put a
stop to the proceedings of Russia, and whether
in our doing so, we should not maintain
the same bearing towards that power as she bore towards
us ; he did not wish to insult Russia, or that we should
go to war with her, but he would wish to see a stop put to
her aggressions, and her desire of aggrandisement.
On those grounds lie begged to move for copies of all
papers respecting the measures pursued by Russia in her
late interference with the state of Turkey.
_

Lord PALMERSTON said he felt sure the House
would not think him justified in entering upon the details
of a negotiation which was still in progress,—into the de-
tails of a transaction which was yet incomplete, and the
result of which might be influenced by any premature de-
clarations on his part. He said that this transaction
was incomplete, because when their last advices left Tur-
key the Russian army had made no decisive movement,
but he was assured, from the assurances which he had
received concerning the intentions of the Russian Govern-
ment, that at the time they were speaking the Russian
troops had evacuated the Turkish territory. He thought
himself justified, however, in stating that some time back
the Sultan did apply to this country for its assistance against
the invasion of the Egyptian army. The Government, for
reasons which it would not be proper for them to go
into, did not at that time think fit to interfere. No doubt
if we had interfered, the progress of Ibrahim Paella
would have been arrested, and the Russian troops
would not have been called in ; but although it was
easy to say, after events had happened, that they were
to be expected, yet certainly no one could or did an-
ticipate that events would have succeeded each other so
rapidly as they did. We, however, having refused him
our assistance, the Sultan applied for it to the Emperor of
Russia, who readily granted it; and as Russia would
have shown no jealousy of our attempting to
aggrandize ourselves had we rendered assistance, neither
should we, with the assurance we had received that the
Russian troops would be withdrawn on the restoration of
(p.
oena cfied, e showu ee w
oa
un yl d snuocth
bjee abl
tursayy. d was
(satisfied,a,.
)With t
pts
el t

7 _ /f.,
to the question of theffbdenithosaan, as to the opinion
of his Majesty's Government of the question of the conquest
of Turkey by Russia, he had no hesitation in saying,
that it was of the utmost importance to the peace
of Europe that the territories forming the Ottoman
empire should be independent.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Undoubtedly Government would feel it to be their duty to
resist any attempt on the part of Russia to partition the
Turkish empire; and if that were contemplated
they would feel themselves at liberty to interfi re
and prevent the Pacha of Egypt from dismembering
any portion of the dominion of the Sultan. The integrity
and independence of the Ottoman empire were necessary to
the maintenance of the tranquillity, the liberation, an I
the balance of power in the rest of Europe; at the
same time, he had great doubts that any intention to
partition Turkey at all had entered into the policy of the
Russian Government; besides, be very much doubted
whether the Russian nation, properly so called, would
be prepared to see that transferrence of power, of
residence, and authority to the southern provinces..
Besides, it would afford the immediate prospect of a gene-
ral war in Europe. These considerations made it clear
that every motive of sound policy ought to induce the
Russian Government to renounce any such intention. His
Majesty's Government bad been constantly taunted with
being afraid to go to war, and had been accused of truck-
ling to ether powers in consequence of this fear. These
accusations he (Lord Palmerston) distinctly denied. If
the present relations established between this country and
Franca were pointed at in these sneers, be would only say
that he should look back with feelings of pride and satis-
faction at the part be had acted in bringing about that
good understanding. No apprehension could be excited
in any reasonable mind on this score, for the circumstances
of this connexion, both in France and in this country,
were greatly altered during the period that the present
Ministry had conducted the political affairs of Great Bri-
tain. But to return to the point; as he had before stated,
there existed every reason for the wish to avoid hostilities.
Russia herself must wish for peace ; she was a very lirge
country, and immense commercial relations were esta-
blished between her and this country. On what
principle could she wish for war, or on what prin-
ciple could those who in this country were so loudly call-
ing on the British Government to draw the sword, jus-
tify the appeal to arms at the present moment? Did they
contemplate the calamities, the fatal and disastrous conse-
quences, attendant upon a state of general warfare—con-
sequences in which the conquerors, no less than the con-
quered, shared ? The taunt of being afraid of war in any
sense but this was puerile ; for no country on the facet f
the globe was likely to suffer less than England from war.
From all the unexampled sacrifices this country had made
during the last war with France, her internal resources
and energies were such, that she had recovered and repaired
her means far sooner than any of the other nations
which had been engaged in those hostilities. He bad
thus stated, to satisfy either the curiosity or the anxiety
of the Hon. Member, what had been the conduct of
his Majesty's Government, and upon what principles
they had proceeded. They had pursued the course
which their duty to their country required; and if
they had quietly beheld the temporary occupation of the
Turkish capital by the forces of Russia, it was because
they had full confidence in the honour and good faith
of Russia, and believed that those troops would be with-
drawn in a very short time, be believed he might almost
say before a few days had elapsed. On the ground of
public convenience, therefore, and of the confidence be bail
in the fulfilment of her engagements by Russia, he thought
the present motion ought not to be agreed to.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON reposed no confidence in the
pledges of Russia, and believed she would continue to
violate them on every occasion when it was her interest
to do so. Had she not pledged herself to maintain the
Constitution of Poland, pledged herself by treaties, and
had she not broken through them all ? He would trust
her not ; for he was of opinion that if she now retired
from Turkey, it would only be for the purpose of render-
ing her return more sure. Such was her honesty in his
estimation. He agreed with the Noble Lord in his com-
mendation of the present friendly relations between this
country and France, and thought that the interests of
every free nation in Europe were dependent on the con-
tinuance of that good understanding, for be was convinced
a conspiracy was in operation against the free institutions
of Europe, and that Russia, who was at the head of this
conspiracy, would never rest satisfied until she had sub-
jugated every country within her reach. When Poland
was crushed, the thraldom of the German states, and af-
terwards of this country, was contemplated by that over-
bearing power. The Noble Lord had informed the House
that the Government had remonstrated with Russia on
the subject of her treatment of the Poles. But why did
he, then, prevent the House of Commons from associating
itself in that remonstrance ? The discussion which took
place on the subject the other night would, however, go
forth to Europe, and show what sentiments were enter-
tained by the British Legislature of the conduct of Russia
towards Poland.

Colonel EVANS thought that the confidence reposed by
the Noble Lord (Palmerston) in the Rus.iaa Government
was completely unsupported by fact, not only in respect to
her conduct towards Poland, but towards Turkey. For
the last 50 years that Government had been engaged in an
uninterrupted commission of breaches of fidelity. The
same conduct which the English had pursued in Asia, and
which Spain had followed in South America, was now
adopted by Russia in regard to Turkey. She set out with
the professed intention of enforcing the treaty which was
agreed to in London ; she declared that she bad no views
of acquisition of territory or of exclusive advantage to
herself ; but within three months after, she declared
that she had grounds for establishing a quarrel of her
own. The discussion turning on the probability of
this country going to war had nothing whatever to do
with the question before the House, and he could not help
thinking that it had been introduced ad capiandum ; for
if, when the Russians first came in sight of Constanti-
nople, we had sent a strong squadron to the Bosphorus,
and used such language as would have shown we were
not afraid of war, all risk of hostilities would, he had no
doubt, have been obviated. If we had used this language
when the Russians were on the Prutb, and then we might
have saved the expense of the squadron, Turkey would
have been in a more independent state than she was at the
present moment. That campaign had added 200 square
miles to the Russian dominions. Believing in the Noble
Lord's statement that England was as fearless of war as
she was able to undertake it, he must still confess that the
chances of war were far less than they were three years
ago. Since then the events which had occurred in France
and the circumstance of the establishment of close and
friendly relations between that country and England, not
to mention the moral influence which Parliamentary
Reform in England must have on every state in Europe,
all combined to lessen the prospect of an European war.
Mr. BULWER replied, and stated that after what had
fallen from the Noble Lord (Palmerston), he would not
press his motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
Colonel L. HAY withdrew his motion for a Select Corn-
mnittee to inquire into the state of the excise laws in Scotland.