The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-12 00:00:00

there were some items of calculation in the measure which,
with the short notice that had been Riven for the
second reading, could not by passibility be properly
investigated. In his view it was one of the most
irnnortant Bills ever brought before Parliament,
and he could assure the Noble Lord, that as such,
it had been taken by the vast majority of the
people in Ire] .nd. He considered that it would be very
improper indecently to press forward this measure, and he
tinaffect-dly put it to the Noble Lord's good feelings
whether Wednesday was not too early a day to be ap-
pointed for the second - reading. At the same time
he disclaimed putting forward any improper ground of
delay on this occasion.
Lord ALTHORP had stated, that the Bill would he
printed and in the hands of Members to morrow. He
thnuelat the principle and details of the Bill suffi-
ciently well understood to enable them to discuss
and competently decide upon the merits of the mea-
sure, and he did not see any reasonable ground for
delaying its second reading beyond Wednesday, as he had
formerly stated.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he had had frequent com-
anunicaiions with many perms who felt a deep interest
on this subject; his answer to them was to request that they
would suspend their judgment. He thought it a mockery to
have a Bill printed one day, and discuss it on the following ;
and he hoped the Noble Lord would at least give such an
interval as to enable them to read the Bill before it went
into the second reading.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped that the Noble Lord would
press the Bill forward as much as possible. The state of
Ireland required that it should speedily pass into a law.
Every Member knew the principles of the Bill, and they
would be able to have the details in their hands to-
morrow. He hoped, therefore, the Noble Lord would
not delay it.
An How. MEMBER. (name unknown) said, as the prin-
ciples of the Bill were involved in the details of it, he
would suggest a short delay.
Another How. MEMBEtt trusted that the Noble Lord
would not attend to any suggestion of the kind. It
was most desirable that that remedial measure,
which was one of many others, and which formed
a distinguishing mark from that which they had
to discuss this evening, should go forth to the world and
thereby prove that the House was anxious to pass a re-
medial measure as nearly as possible pani passe with the
other Bill.

Mr. WILKS hoped the Noble Lord, with all possible
despatch, would let the presebt Bill go forth to the world,
for it was one of which the people of Ireland universally
approved.

Mr. A. JOHNSTONE said he could not see such an
important measure pressed forward—a measure which
would give the first stab to the Established Church,
with any undue haste ; and he was surprised that such
a great measure should have only one day between the first
and second readines. He, for one, would not seek to conci-
liate the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, by bringing
forward that Bill with such precipitancy. With respect
to the other Bill, they all knew that a great necessity
existed for it ; hut no such necessity existed for the pre-
sent Bill. There were many reasons which induced him
to press on the Noble Lord the granting of more time.

Mr. LEFROY said that the other Bill for coercive
measures was justified by the urgency of the case, but the
present Bill introduced a principle of great magnitude
and importance, namely, whether they were to have in
Ireland an Established Church or not. He trusted that
his Rejesty's Government would, under the circumstance
of the great importance of the preliminary question, give
more time than 24 hours before they were called on to
discuss it. He trusted at least they should have a few days.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY considered that the Bill for the
reformation of the Church of Ireland ought to be proceeded
with prior to the further argument on the Irish Coercive
Bill, as it would supersede the necessity of that measure
altogether. At the same time that he stated this he could
not subscribe to the doctrine or principles that had been
laid down of that measure having undergone a dis
cusoinn. The measure had been ushered into the House
by the N ,ble Lord opposite, no persons having delivered
their opinions upon it, with the exception of the Hon.
Member for Duhlin ; he considered it bad in detail, as
upon that point the question. would be, whether there
should be a Church in Ireland or not. He should wish
both measures to be delayed. If the consideration of the
suppression Bill was delayed I r a week or two the
otter measure would be found altogether to supersede it.

An How. Mitmwslt trusted that Ministers would not
allow a single hour's delay to take place in the second
reading nithe Bill.

Another How. MEsesea did not consider that the mea-
sure went far enough, and trusted that Ministers would
extend its provisions when it came before the House in
Committee —( Hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON could not concur with the del iy
proposed, considering it equally necessary that the remedial
measures should have as immediate consideration as the
coercive.

Lord ALTIIOIIP—He should regret much to lose the
c.nridence of a gentleman Laving the charact, r of the
Hun. Members and hoped that it would not he upon
such slight erounils as the pr Bent. If it would ivr
aatislatition to any nuteher of Hon. Gentlemen, he was wil-
ling that the s, rand reading should t ke place on Thurs-
day, instead of Wednesd,y.

Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL said that the de'av f.f
this measure proved how little Lis Majesty's Ministers
were entitled to the confidence of the Irish people.

C lone) CONOLLY said that as this Bill involved the
existence of the Protestant religion, the welfare of the
church tenantry, ..nd even in some (levee the integrity of
the nom .reby, and permanence of connection between the
two countries, he thought it was not one which
should he so precipitated in its passage through th,st
House, as not to he known in the country where it
was to operate till it became the law. The Hun.
Member for Bridport sp,,ke as if he thought this
tneasure would dispose of the tithe question ; but it
would do no such thing. It inv.,lved, however,
other interests, which deserved the utmost deliberation
and serious attention of the House.

Mr. SLANEY said that the Noble Lord (Althorp)
had a mist n:flicult task to perform. Gentlemen of ex-
treme opinions called upon him to pursue diametrically
opposite courses ; and it became sincere men, who
belonged to neither extreme, to throw their
weight into the scale of mo4eration. Those men
must feel most anxious that this, which was a con-
ciliatory Bill, should, at least, make equal progress
with the coercive Bill.—(Cheers.) He had voted for
that Bill with regret and sorrow, because he thought him-
self compelled to do so by necessity, but he must protest
against any further delay than that which the Noble Lord
had acceded to. The measure he suptiorted most cordially.
An HON. MEMBER (name unknown) said that he
disagreed with Ministers upon the coercive measure,
hut quite concurred with them upon this, and hoped, there-
fore, that no further delay would take place.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL gabi he could not believe
that what was insinuated by the Honourable Mem-
ber for Tralee could possibly take place, namely,
that the delay of a single day in bringing
forward this Bill, would induce the people of Ireland to
withdraw their confidence from this House.—(Hear, hear.)
He wa4 sure that the p-ople of Ireland were not so un-
just—(Cheers)—as from such a circumstance to conclude
that this Hous, was indisposed to redress their grievances.
Lord DARLINGTON thought the House would have
reason to complain if a measure of this importance were
hastily passed through Parliament. He did not say that
it should not be passed pari passu with even the Coer-
cive Bill, but if the Noble Lord thought so, why did he
not press forward this Bill at an earlier period.

The Biil was ten read a first time. -
Upon Mr. SPEAKER, putting the question that it
he read a s,cond time on --

Sir R. PEEL rose and said—He would put it to the
Noble Lord to say whether or not it was a fair ground
to state that because he wanted to satisfy the people of
Ireland, be was about to introduce a conciliatory measure,
in order to justify his Coercive Bill, that therefore only one or
two days should ba suffered to elapse between the printing
of the Bill and the second reading of it. It was on the
12th of March the Noble Lord obtained permi-sion to
bring in this Bill. Why had not the Noble Lord
brought it in sooner?—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If he
required additional time to that usually taken between
obtaining leave to bring in a Bill and actually bringing it
in, Was it not too much, after taking that unusual time,
to deprive the House of two or three days which
they desired to have after the first reading, for the purposo.
of discussing the Bill ?—(Hear, hear.) He asked for no
delay whatever that could carry with it the suspicion
that he wanted to defeat the Bill—he asked
only for that delay which would enable Members to
consider and pronounce upon it. The House might re-
fuse delay with respect to the Bill already under discussion
if the Noble Lord pleased, but all he (Sir Robert)
protested against seas, that the House should be called upon
to deal with a matter of this importance—to decide upon
the principle of it without giving even three
days for consideration. —( Hear, hear ; and No, no.)
Fle would aenturo to say such a proposition never had
been made by any Government —(Heer, hear, hear.)
And such a propo•ition never catikl have been] thought of
by any b..t the present Government.—(Cheers.) Contrast
ti.e course that had been pursued with respect to the coer-
cive weaeure. The house permitted the Noble Lord

to bring forward that important measure, without ask,
ing to deprive him of the established course, perhaps with
sufficient reason, but had there not been a most lengthened
discussion on the first reading of that Bill? The first
reading of this Bill bad taken place with an evidence
of so little di-position to offer unnecessary delay,
that it had teen read almost without a single word
having been said upon it ; and that being the ease, he
would maintain, that to have the second reading fixed for
Wednesday or Thursday, was too early to admit of
the House prrmou, sing on the principles of the fill.—
(Cheers.) He wanted no delay that was unnecessary,
He would venture to say the Noble Lord would find a
vry different course pursued upon this Bill to that
which had been pursued upon the Coercive Bill ; but it
was hardly fair, presuming upon that, that he was to treat
the House in such a way as it had never before
been treated by any Government whatever.--(Cheers.)
There were several parts of this Bid which he ap-
proved of—there were others which required explanation ;
and he asked the Noble Lord to trust to his know..
ledge of uniform parliamentary proceedings, and to consider
that Monday next would not be too soon to fix for the
second reading of this M.—(H-3r, hear, hear.) He
would venture to say that the Noble Lord would not
find any undue delay wished for; but surely the
Noble Lord ought to contrast the proceeding, on this
occasion with that on any former time. He did
not think that this Bill, which was to extin-
guish ten Bishops, to alter the whole tenure
of Church lands, to alter the interests, not only of the
Church but of the leases under it—above all, to appro-
pri ,te part of the revenues of the Church to secular
purposes—he did not think it was unreasonable to

a•k for four days' delay between the first and second read-
ings of such a Bill. If the Noble Lord wished to reconcile
parties who entertained strong objections to this Bill—if
he wished to convince patties of the necessity and of
the justice of it, it was to be hoped that he would only
pursue that course that was consistent with the usage of
the House.

Lord ALTHORP thought be could satisfactorily
explain the reason why so much delay had arisen between
giving notice of his intention to bring in this Bill,
and obtaining leave to bring it in, and his ac-
tually bringing it into the House. The reason was not,
as the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to allege, that his
Majesty's Ministers bad had any doubt of the prin-
ciples of the Bill,—for any gentleman who would
take the trouble of reading it, would find that it was
eatirely conformable to the principles he had laid down
upon obtaining leave to bring it in—the delay had arisen
exelu.iveiy upon the details of the measure. It had
been said that a longer interval bad generally been
allowed lietwten the priming and the second reading of
a Bill, but he was perfectly satisfied the House would be
as competent to come to a decision on this Bill on Thursday
next as it would possibly be on Mond iy cext.—(Hear.) If
the delay had been asked for that the opinions of
people in Irelind might have been. obtained, then
be could understand the distinction, but he was quite
certain that, in the present state of circumstances,
it could not be wanted for any useful purpose. The dif-
ference of delay between Thursday and Monday was
nothing at all, because he was quite sure that
if a gentleman could not make up his mind on
having to-morrow and Wednesday to look over the Bill,
neither would he be able to make it up on having the three
or four other days. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
had, as h appeared to him (Lord A.) taken merit with those
who were opposing this Bill for not objecting to its second
reading ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman, would recollect
that this was a most unusual course. It certainly was
done in the case of the Coercive Bill, but be (Lord A.)
never recollected any other case when there was any
lengthened debate on the first reading of a Bill. It
there were doubts as to the propriety of a measure pro-
posed, then the debate took place on moving for
leave to bring in a Bill ; but atter tha►• was granted,
theme was hardly a precedent of a Bill being debated on
the first reading. It did take place upon the Coer-
cive Bill, and it was a case, too, which came
down from the Lords, making in that respect a difference.
—(Hear, hear ) The Right Hon. Gentleman couid not
fail to recol'ect that when the Bmll was brought in for Ca-
tholic emancipation there was ro debate on the first reading,
of the Bill—the discussion vihich arose took place on toe
motion for leave to bring in the Bill ; indeed theme was
not a single case which he (Lord A.) could recollect on
which a discussion take place upon the first reading of a Bill,
',mil the introduction of the coercive measure for Ireland.
After the Bill had been so long before the public, he
thought there could be no difficulty in gentlemen making
up their minds.

Colonel I'ERCEVAL, the present being one of a
series of encroachment., could not see on what ground the
Noile Lord persisted in his 'tefusal to give t►me.
An Hon. MEMBER said that seeing from what quarter
the proposition for delay time, his Majesty's Ministers
would lose the confidence of the Irish people if it were ac-
c,deil to.

Lou' SANDON, in reference to any particular qu trter
from which any prop ,sition might come, said, that if they
were to consider from what particular gust ter the ohstruc-
ti.,n to the other Irish 811 arose, they wculd be doing injus•
cite on this occasion ; he asked, did that obstruction arise
how ary sincere desire to give a fair consideration to the
? He th 'nett that ti sh,rt time shook' he given,
iu order that they might b. able to give a fair
opinion upon it.--(Hear, hear.) He did not speak in
hos ility to the Bill, but he appealed to the justice of a
Ref ,rated Parliament. It was lways uual to give a mi-
nority fair play, and as they were friendy to the princi-
ples of the Bill. lie thought it but fair to common justice
that they show,' h ive time to consider it before they were
called upon to decide.
Au HoN. AlEsrana thought it much better to think of
conciliating a whole nation, tren a few Members of that
House. As to conciliation, that might be canted too far—
km instance, they tn' gilt conciliate a highwayman.
He thought, however, tt.at conciliation should go hand in
hand with coercion. His opinion was, that the confidence of
the country had been fully given to his Majesty's Minis_
lets ; and although, under ordinary circumstances, some
delay might with convenience be granted, yet the pre-
sent were extraordinary circumstances, and r. quirrd that
conciliation should go hand in hand, if possible, with
severer measures.

Mr. A. BARING deprecated calling upon the House,
at so early a period, to have the Bill read a second time.
It was not a fair course to pursue towards any set
of gentlemen. The Bill had not even hail time
to teach that part of the country which it so
materially affected.—(Loud cheers.) By it the pro-
perty of the Church, the Bishop's leases were to be
disposed of, without the slightest opportunity being given
to those whom it so materially affected, of seeing
the Bill, or of getting an answer by return of post in
what manner their constituents were affected by it. He
could not sufficiently express the astonishment be felt at
the proposal of the Noble Lord oppo=ite for the county.
He (Mr. B.) had not been able to make out the principles
upon which the Noble Lord proceeded in introducing the
measure. He was, as yet, not determined whether he
shoul l support or vote against the measure; but this he
must say, if ever there was a Bill that required the serious
consider 'Con of the House, the one introduced by
the Noble Lord on this subject was that Bill.—
(Hear, hear.) He had spoken to many persons friendly
to the alteration of the law with respect to the Trish
'Church, but he had not found a single individual who
could give a solution to the calculations referred to by the
Noble Lord when he brought forward the measure. This
manner of forcing, by means of a majority and a party
whom the Noble Lord was otherwise opposing, measures
through the House, tended to do away with all the custo-
mary courtesies and forms of Parliament. The Noble Lord
had a motion standing on the tithes in England. Were
they to understand that when he had brought forward that
measure, they were to come to the second reading without
giving the country the time or means of knowing what
it was ?--(Hear, bear.) The Noble Lord was also
going to regulate the affairs of the East and of the West
Indies, but was this to be the mode in which their
legislation was to proceed ? Was it by means of a cla-
mour at his back that the Noble Lord was, for the first
time, he believed, in the history of Parliament, or at
any rate since they both had been in it, thus
to thrust down the throats of a minoril
an cbnoxious measure, perhaps without the slightest cere-
mony or compliance with the usages of Parliament ? He
could not sufficiently express the feelings with which this
course of conduct inspired him.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down had expressed his astonishment
at the early period at which it was proposed to read this
Bell a second time. He (Lord J. Russell) must ex-
press his astonishmen; at the course which this
debate had taken. The debate bad completely
confounded the principle with the details of the
13i11; for, after all that bad been said, lie would
venture to say, that ev, ry Honourable Gentleman
would come down to the House on Thursday, prepared
to vote for or against the reading of this Bid, not upon the
consideration of the details now before the House, but
upon consideration of the gland outline submitted to them
by his Noble Friend on the 12. h et February. The very
point alluded to by the H insurable Mersaer for
Essex, that of church lease-, was a question of
detail, he supposed the Honourable Member for Essex
would admit that there ;night be terms under which