The Sun.
London, England, 1802-03-06 00:00:00

NHCHAELIS O THE Y!\V TESTAMENT,

Complete, IVitll the. Rev. H. MARSH's NOTES.
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INTRODUCTION to the N.,EsW
A. TESTAMENT.
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Translated r73in the Fourth rdition of t,heGe'rman, and
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• by tnat great BOtanist, who dedicated his life to the discovery
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1111PERI4L PARLMAIEAT.

HOUSE OF PEERS,

FRIDAY, )ARCH 5.
SCOTCH APPEAL.

REBECCA 1.10 C.,• otherwise LA SFILEY, v.•TH\VAYTEst
et N D OIIiERS.

The SOLICITOIt GENERKI, Was heard-at considerable
length relative to this cause--After which, their Lordships,
on account of certain considerations arking from the peculiar
nature of the case, postponed the further,hearing thereof till
this'day fortnight.

The:Bills 1111013 the Table were forwarded in their respective
stages.
_ _

The Expiring Laws Bill was brOught up from-the Com-
mons by MT. ALEXANDER; and a
.private Bill by SO.. C.
BUNBURY, which were severally read a first time.

-Some private 'business was then disposed oL-7-After which
their Lordships adjourned till Monday.

HOUSE OF.. COMMONS,

FRIDAY, MARCH 5. ,

MR. Dion/vs.:3.N brought up. the Bill for con.
tinning, for a limited time, the Ad of last Session,
respetting the Non-residence of the Clergy.
The Bill was read a first time, and was ordered
to be read a second time on Monday.
Mr. JOHNSTONE said, that with a view to
illustrate the subject which had been discussed last
night, he should move, that there be laid before
the House an account of the Covenanted Servants
of the EastlndiaCompany at Bencoolen, the amount'
of the salaries, and the date of their appointments.
Mr. WALLACE said, he had no objet-tion to
the Motion, though lie did not see the necessity of
it.—The Motion was 'agreed to.
trThe SECRETARY at WAR brought up the
Mutiny Bill, which, be said, was the same as that
of last year, except'that the duration was limited
to two months, as the Army had been voted for
that period. It was read a first time, and was
ordered to he'read a second -time on Monday.
Mt. VANSITTART brought.up the Bill for raising
the sum of One Million by Loan or Exchequer Bills.
It was read a first time, and was ordered to be read
a-second time on Monday:

Mr. VANSITTART'MOVed the Order of the Day
for the second reading of the American Treaty
Bill.

General G ASCOY NE s;id, that before he stated
his objections to the he thought it right to
state, that, from the length of titne which. had
elapsed between the first and second reading of -the
Bill, he had been enabled co make iriTtir:es into
this subjed, which had certainly done ate ay Many
of his' objet ions ; but still some remained,, which
he thought it his duty to submit to the House. One
of the greatest objeCtions which he to this Bill
was, that it would, in a very considerable degree,
infringe upon the Navigation AEI, which, next to,
the great charter of our Liberties, ou.ght to be
kept inviolate. / It was to that -AO that, we were
indebted for the great Navy which we possessed,
and -for our Trade. But even if it were right to
pass this Bill, he thought we ought to, wait till
after the Definitive Treaty, because then we should
have to snake Commercial Treaties with other
Powers, and therefOre he thought,it would he wiser
to wait till we knew the terms of: the other Treaties
before we bound ourselves in this manner to America.
It appeared to him, that by taking off the Counter-
vailing Duties with America, we should lose, or
very much injure, one great branch of our trade,
he meant the Carrying Trade, in which America
was our rival. This measure originated in America,
for there was -a bill brought in there to take off
these duties ; and if he had no, other reason, that
alone would. induce him to doubt very much before
he gave his a:sent to the measure. It ,was rather
singular, that bet Ore a .great commercial measure
like the present was proposed to the House, it
had not been proposed to the' Boaryi of Trade, or
that a Committee of that I-louse had not been
appointed -to examine the sttbjed. He could
not see any reason for pressing the measure at
present, nor why it would not be time enough
to consider our Treaty with AmeriCa, when we
came to consider the Treaties Which we should
certainly make with other Countries. In speaking
upon this Bill he was afraid he should be under the
necessity .of not adhering closely to the subjeti,
but he trusted that the House would excuse him.
He was sure there was no man at all, acquainted
with the Commercial Interests of this Country,
who could view the trade which was carried on
between America and our West India Islands,
without being convinced that it was highly inju-
rious to this Country, because it enabled the Ame-
ricans to meet us upon the Continent with the pro-
duce of our own Colonies.' He was therefore dis-
posed to feel a little jealousy upon the subjeCt of
" this Bill, because it proceeded from America, who
was endeavouring to deprive us of the,Carrying
Trade. It appeared by the Papers before the
House, that, in 1791, the number of Ve;.els
that cleared out from Great Britain for America,
were 2+5 British, - and 218 Foreign ; but 'that in
Igor, there were only 62 British Sllips cleared out,
while the number of Foreign Vessels amounted to
507—50 much had our Carrying Trade been de-
creased. He adniitted , that this decrease must be
attributed, in a great degree, to the War, 'but, not
altogether. He confessed, that the objeClions he
was making to this measure, did.not proceed from
his own knowledge, but from suggestions which he
had received from Merchants concerned in this
Trade, and, consequently, well acquainted with
the nature of it. .There was one subjeft which
appeared to him to be very important, and to de-
serve the serious attention of the House, and that
was, the ;trade in the article of Salt. When Salt,
was shipped in this Country, it was necessary to
give Bonds; which were not cancelled until a Cer-
tificate-was procured . that the Cargo was delivered
at the Port for which the Vessel was cleared out ;
in America.rto such difficulties were impo.M. But
he wished to know, if we repealed these Countervail-
itig Duties, how we were sure that America would du
the same? At. all events, he thought this Bill ought
not to pass until we were certain of that fait.—
It was true, that America had offered to take off
her Countervailing Duties, but it was no mark 'of
favour to this Country; because she ,had made a
s'imilar offer' to all the rest of the world. lie was
informed, that a Treaty had been concluded be..

tween France and America, by which the forthe'r
agrees to let American ships enter *he'r*Portt with
the same advantages and privileges that French
ships enjoyed ; and when, in addition to this, he took
into consideration the prohibitionin Spain and Hol-,
land against British' gods, it c-rtainly was .sufli-
dent
,to excite considerable jealousy. on our part;
and to induce us to take care not to
,give any Na-
tion advantages which would enable her to enter
into a competition with us. If we did give thos-e
advantages, we Ought to be sure that the Nation
to whom we.gave.those advantages deserved stiO,
favour from us. Upon• these grounds, though he
ltiotild not direaly oppose the Bill, yet he thought
-it would be time enough to bring it forward when
the Session of Parliament was near its close, .and
when most probably the 'House would have the
other Treaties to which he had. alluded, before
them. • - •

Mr. I 7 AiliS'ITT A RT, said, that as the Hon. Gen-
tleman had admitted that many of his objedions to
this Bill had 'been done away in the interval be-
tween the first and second read;,e.ti- of it, he was.
only astonished that any of his obJ—iiins remained.
He should not,, in reply to the Hon. Gentleman,:
enter into any discussion upon the subject of the
Prohibitions againSt English goods by Spain 'or
Holland, because 'America had nothing to do with
it, and consequently it had nothing to do with the
Bill before the House. Besides the Houle had not,
at present, the necessary informaiion•.before them.
to enable them 16 discuss the subjed.- When that
information arrived, we should then know in 'what
light we were to 'consider the sub:ie.} ; but at all
events it had no connedion with the present mea-
sure. The lion. Gentleman, had, in the course of
his speech, mistaken two or three, points. The,
Hon. Gentleman seemed to suppose, that by passing
this Bill, we were giving exclusive advantages to
America ; but that was not die case, for it. would
only put the Navigation with America on die same
footing 'with that of other Nations. Another
point in which the Hon. Gentleman was • mistaken
was, in supposing that•this was an 'infringement of
the Navigation A,171: lie should be obliged to the
Honourable Gentleman to inform him how it in-
fringed on that At, for he confessed he coull not
see the least tonnedion between them. The Hon.
Gentleman had stated, that we were on the point
of entering 'into Commercial Treaties with other
'i"owers, and therefore we ought to wait till these
Treaties were before the•HoUse ; but as these
COuntervailing Duties only related to America;' lie
could not conceive •what coimedion it could have
with our Treaties with other Powers. It bad been
said, that iii consequence of a Treaty betweer! Frariee
and Atherica, the vessels of the latter Were to
mit ted into the Ports (...f the former upon as favourable
terms as French vessels ; but the Treaty to which
the Hon. Gentleman alit] 'ed had not been published
in any authentic shape, therefore it was. impossible
to state, with corredi,e,,s, what the terms of 'that
Treaty ‘Vere, The Hon. 7ntlenan then
.stated,
that America would, in consequence of this Bill,
have an advantage over us in the articleplSalt, oti
account of the bonds which it was necessary to give
in this Country ; but the reason why .these bonds
were requited was, that -the vessel, lii which it was
in general Shipped, were coasting vessels, and h it
were not for these bonds, the Salt might- be re_
landed and the revenue ,defrauded.--The next sUb-
ject- upon which the Hon. Gentleman commented
was, the great increase of American Shipping-
This was a:consideration that had nothing to do
with the present Bill ; but if it had, it 'ought rather
to induce the House to pass the Bill, because it-
, slimed :hat the measures we had hitherto adopted
were •inefficacious. It certainly. appeared that the
number of English vessels employed in the .trade
with America had decreased.' In 1791 the number
of British ships employed were 312, and of Foreign
24.6 ; in' 1792 there were 24.7 British and 318 I 4
reign ; in 1793 there were 197 -British and 313
Foreign. This decrease taking place before; the
War, could not of course be attributed to it, but
after, the War did take place, the decrease of British
Shipping was certainly more rapid. In 179. g, the
whole amount of the British manuladures exported
to America was to the value of 5,300,0001. ; in
1799, it was 6,700,0001., and in 1800 it'was nearly
the ene. Now it should he tecolleded; that our,
Exports to *America were mostly British. Maudlac_
tures, and %vete for the consumption of Ametica.
The cheaper they could get these articles; die more
they would consume of them; and, consequently,
by taking off these Duties, we were doing great
service to our ManufaCtures. On the other hand,
our imports from America were not the,Manullic-
tures of that Country, nor, were they in geneial for
she consumption of this, but .principally for re-ex-
portation ; therefore, the effect of continuing these
Countervailing Duties, would be to force the Ame-
ricans to take their produce at once to the other
Countries of Europe, instead of sending them first
to England, and consequently our Re-eport Trade
would be ruined. But strongly as hefelt the advan-
tages of our Trade with America," that was not the
ground on which he defended this Bill; he meant to
defend•it on the grounds of national good faith, and
general policy. Soon after the conclusion,of the Ame-
rican War, the animosity which had prevailed daring
the War, not having subsided, America did endeavour
very much to crush'the trade of England, and in
. _

many instances the Duties upon English Mer-
cliandiie were three or four times 'greater, than the
Duties upon the Merchandize of France and other
CoUntries. But she soon found the inconvenience
of this system, and one of the first steps :of her
Legislature after her Constitution wAs formed, was
to repeal these Duties, and to impose others, which
were equal upon, all Countries. But there teas one

point'whieh seemed to have escaped the Hon.,Gen-
tleman's attention, which.was, that this Bill was
not _ imperative, but Retmissive. There was but
one point more of the Hon. Gentleman's speech to
which it was necessary for him to allude, which

•wai that this Bill had' not been submitted to the
Board of Trade.—He did not •know that this was
any objection to the Bill ; but he could say, .that
- this mcasare had the approbation of those who,
• from their situation Were best able to judge upon
the subjea ; but he had not met with any one per_
son .who entertained the same sentiments upon the
subject as the Hon., Gentleman.

Dr. LAivR.E.NeE expressed his obligatfon to

e

ttS opened this
Irisf-'11'7737;17747 :leb
.91 tic
having called his
mind. He admitted that whatever might L-1:.
eve
expediency, or inexpediency of the measure, by
must adopt it if we were bound to d° soloing
good faith. He did not mean to say anY
disrespelful to the Government of -"ct of
but he had a right to speak of...the conch!" r
impressedion tgoretalitis:asliall;jlcl6tt'iatpci.a:°;(l
the Government of other Nations, as far as 't,
ulna
hated to the interests of this Country. °
It /lad
said, in defence of this measure, that we were O ,
by Treaty to sake. Off these Duties, if tfle, r 1" icy
taken off in America. The stipulations of a I
,iev`eea,
must undoubtedly be adhered to, but he contend off
that this was ,not the proper mode of takingshe
these Duties. He wished to know what was ea,
necessity of hurrying this Bill? There waS no retie
son to suppose that Parliament would not cOntl'ijiat
to sit for mote than .two 'months, and before
that
to sit far more than two months, and befCofo
time; all probability, we should receive jet r,
°
mation of what
,was passing upon the subie ocs
America. It really Was not respedful to Atne
to auppose,' that becatse a Bill had been broug°t-s.
to their Legislature upon this subjed, that thevr 5
fore it must necssarily pass into a law. ge,stt.
sure the British House of Commons would feCL it
selfhurt,, if any Foreign Country were to trear of
in such a manner. But where was, the oecess,'Yent
giving such pOwers to Ministers, wheroParlijl-e?
was sitting ? It was giving tip the COOtroLd tv'ts
had upon this subjed, without any cliose wfiateag
for so doing. There appeared to hini to be r;l3-ill
objection to.this measure, upon tile. face of "'es v,
itself, because it merely stated, that it was necess'oo
from certain cireunistaoces, to take off these, of
ties' ; but it did not particularize any ocrli.ls,
these circumstances. The; ineonveri:osiee oi bet
quence had often been. felt in that House/ ory
howthey had got into a Contrary- extreme; °``",,,l
tiling like discussion was 'Called- an Episode). `pss,
even Maps and.Tecoties were represented. as usei;l:t
If, however, this measure was Accessary, he thati,fsti
it would be better to bring it forward upon it`
grounds, and that a bill of a very different
ufe
should he proposed. It certainly Was a most se.o.
bus consideration., that the shipping of Atnetis,
had Met-eased 'so much. During the ossicao °los
her shipping was nearly annihilated,- and it os
ndw as.great as the shipping of Great Britain "of
at the conolusion of that war. All the•effolsso
our Navigation Aa,..and all the care we had t' kois
during 'a period of abOVe tt century, hid till}"
our shipping equal to thsit which Americalot
created in,a few yeatS. It had Been stated; %of
taking off these-duties,',would make obis
a depot for the merchandize of Anissrica, :but be,
deprecated this -plan of making a distinat°n
tsoo
tweet' our mercantile interest and Our 1'43'1,V:11
Ad. There was one point which, in: his ppini;st
caked- for the attention of Parliament, and that' w`se
'the great increase of the Ameriesth trade With ,tile
East Indiess There bad been i? decision
'Courts of this Country which certainly tenoec."o
encourage this trade, lie meant the case of 11;iiiss
and Marrzot, and there Nvere now above 30cydiss•
ricaroships employedin trading to the Last die
It was a‘notorious'fads that it was the Plan ° 005
French Government, :when -the war 7f.anitist.oies.
over, to :carry. on a war of Custom-110115° ci
with us, and,. if possible, to ruin our tr4e- . ,
certainly called for the most serious atte ov 3
Government of this Countrs; This sppe3te onse,
Pamphletpohlishes; by a person or considerable cooler
quence in the French Government, fOr he wjsi boot`
Secretary of State to TALLEYRAND,
completely developed the plan of the French Liu- disti
limit to ruin our Commsrce. [Dr. LAssr Er"CE Sri V'
read a variety of extrads from the Pamphlet "',O
port of his assertion.] The principles laid Al° 00,
this book, were not the mere opinions of thcsete4
inent, but such as France hail Ilse
oupon ; and as a proof of this, he referral
different Treaties which. Franca ' had plate ,
other Countries, in which this systemhad bec'-oss
variably adhered to. All these co-0311'43'0r
ought to make us 'extrerisely
.watchful oveit 11131
CommercialloteresiS. He, thefefore,
seine plan of Commercial Intercourse b,c'a be'
this Country and France would,be estalirt=',e
fore tlie Defiaitive Treaty %vas sigoedo -bec'T:stic't
was sure that aster that Treaty we- should n°-sate‘)
teed in establishing one. I': that ohjed SC'eol/1
before the Definitive Treaty was signed,
spiracy which had been formed against ottr, olos'
coerce would-be tanavaiiina_if was not, I.JI fly
serious consequences might be apprehe-nc‘seot'
would not trouble the House any longer at )'canton
but he thought it his duty to 'call their 01°
to this importaut subjcd. With regard era`{
,t
present Bill, Ise thought, for the reasons I,', for'
before stated, that it was improperly brotG`ll.`y
ward at present, and that if it was oecos'atiesf
.give the Crown a power of.repealing these voiliefil
it might be done at the close.of the Sessions' ,00
Parliament would, in all probability, have 0-) till
information of what happened 'witn regard t°
subjed in America. „
- as s
'Lord HAWKESBURY said, that if there ins
great,de,arth of eloquence in that House, s°`i;:li,
disposition to disuss questions at great lenqice`'„
certainly could-not be discovered in the pr'' sotc7c
the Hod. and Learned Gentleman. He yv,lstt'a
that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, `.ol‘oll',l,
great mass of knoWledge and informatid° arsl
he possessed, should have brought it
the present case, rather to embarrass the e 105.7
than to render it More clear and inteni;;liti
Bethreohe adverted to the topics containes"esole`
latter part of the z.peech of the Hon. and f Cll
Gentleman, he %visited to call the ittent;°° orese,f'
House to the state of the which was at r
before them, and he could not help observisig'to
out intending the least disrespect whatevc."4os 1
lion.-Gentleman who' opposed it, that It ny 001
Bill, about the proprietyof which scarcely
of common sense could entertain a singi.cosell ta
There was no .roan more disposed than "MT-iss',ly
• give the highest praise:to the Navigati°o„pdoi
which the Hon. Gentleman hail so pointediYo-roetc',l
he considered as the foundation of the °7
prosperity of this Country ; but 00'
the !tat
been contended, did the Bill now before s of t?
trench in any manner -upon the provisi-9%, CO-
Ad? What .was the -simple state Of

V

~;

a

ti

..- - •
ed States of America thought fit to impose
a dtnY upon the tonnage. of British Ships, and upon
the cargoes of all Vessels coming into their Ports,
ivhichwerenot American, for the purpose of bene-
fiting their own Navigation.. When the Conamercial
Treaty was negotiated between the .two Countries,
It was expressly stipulated that no fresh duties
should be imposed ; but as the United States refused
to give up the old dutieS,ethis Country could not
softer those duties to remain without imposing Coun-
tervailing Duties, and this was their origin. He
should have thought it a matter of course, without
Unitedt between the two Countries, that if the '
States withdrew their duties, we should also'
discontinue ours. He was sure such condua would
be perfealy consistent also with the spirit of the
Treaty, if it did not striftly come within the let_
ter :. if the American duties were taken off, the
duties imposed.bY this• Country must then cease to
ue_cOunte-rvailing; and if they were not' Counter-
I?ailing Duties, they must be new duties, and there_
rare contrary to the stipulations of the Treaty. He
could not say that the American duties had a&ually
ceased, but the UnitedSiates had done all that they
couldthe Secretary of State
i , as.they hachnotifi.dto
T,'lere, their intention ot taking off those duties.-_Lle submitted, therefore, to the House, whether it
was not jost and expedient to pass an A6f, the ob_
Jeff of which was merely to give His Majesty
Power, under certain. circumstances, to suspend the
Countervailing
b Y good faith, as the communication of the Ame_ •
?lean duties being taken off might arrive when Par_
lament was not sitting, whilst at the same time
the continuance of the Countervailing Duties, after
such a cottununication, would be a breach of the
Treaty. Independent of -this, however, raking it
upon the ground of expediency alone, was it not
equally Advantageous to America and Great Britain,
that the 'duties on both sides should cease ? At any
' l'"te, if it could not be clearly proved that an ad-'
lantage would result from continuing those duties,
tin was fair to presume, without arguing the ques_4,3n anY, further, that an advantage would .result
Lett`n (isentinuing those duties. It ,was always
ofcr that two Countries should be in a .i.inple state
:rf, "munkation with each other, than under the
was
of a complicated system of Duties. There
,a also another consideration of policy : great
fart of the produce of America was- deposited in
llsCouptry,
the world ;
frmn whence it was exported to other
parts
ft' r ofeif Countervailing Duties were
oastoe I)ere, we gave an' advantage to
lit.eosllancd andt tithe? Countries where no suds du-
i existed and we ' '
produce of A!fletiCat'te3 consequently, much of the
ference to this C Would be deposited, in pre_
ountry. Upon all the grounds,
;therefore, of ex t;
Bill presented e-r"encY and policy, the present
them itself to the House, and called upon
woi 'for their consent and approbation. 'He
titt now
say a few words with respea to the
otherale anent} °°servations of the Hon: and Learned Gen-
jnan* *The Fitin and. Le trued Gentleman had said, 4
' effect was the policy of France to destroy the
of our Navigation ACS. This might be very
true
„e.„
h•4l, duo there was no man who thought more
f 11,6111 Y than him.eli .of that AC, which was the
(Ln"'ltiOn of our commerce, our prosperity, and
,°l'r wealth. There was no man 'more ready than
iniesele .h;c to applaud the brave and skilful exertions
w,,,-.4:" bad been made to support that:Ad. It was
tenlewhat singular, however, that the Hon. and
such ed Gentleman should now so‘freelyereeotumerid.
that bold and determined measures in support of
leA 46t, who had not loft since endeavoured to'
cii,luence the House to desert and abandon the prin-
ardes of that very NavigAtion Ad. The Hon.
lio Learned Gentleman had trade some quotations
as tjll a book which had been published sly long ago
ev.: 11,"arY IBot, which he had kept in his,pocket
related`- n, and now,' when the question to which it
trot'cv ee
as decided, he' brought it forward to the
pro,: ~(,)f. the House.. It was now produced, to
til c teat there was to be a continued War against
Qnicoerce of this Country ; at one time we
W,le 1,
~)(1
,:uut, that War was. ruin to our Commerce,
he
vll'w our Commerce was to be ruined by Peace :
Illen'as as little inclined to believe the latter state-
,,eo± as. the former, which had proved to be erro-
p,__U_Se, It if
-: there was a War against our Com-
i'ecificfounu,. was no reason why we should not pass a
or why
we skean
ilipon 0 principle of liberal conciliation,
State
0 _
boonciliate
()pen manner 'l°
icl "°t3 to a liberal,' a fair, and
mended
t- r the enefit
of any great and powerful.
conciliation was i our Commerce, where that
part. ,
railiation on our
other States It
ty no degradation or hue
to destroy the Commerce of Great Bri.
might be the olicy of
tures,,dorin were they
t,ain, but how
to do it ? Our manufac-
the g the late \Vat, found their way into all
ports of Earo e ' •
and .1-- Exports
of e' In spite of every prohibition ;
j.,_ !ltel ofßritish Manufatiures were, dur...
• and
ttat period nearly doubled. America, after
pthreoh\i":`7 between her and this Country, •imposed
man:fa' ory duties' on British goods ; but British
itires were exported thither in a greater
pro)
lortio
11n than before the War, in spite of every
111.:cl'i btion. When a Commercial
the i e
between Armed France .and Russia Treaty took
, at the eriod of
in the e,rn. ea
Neutrality, impediments were tltrrovn
of the Commerce of this Country
in suite Oil:these, France was compelled to purchase
ee in the markets of this Country.--
`-'hitions upon our Commerce
-""Commerce must
"f vrohi_
he be,._
in that respe....,
' Friend seemed to style
resources' with those we hat .
The CHANCELLOR of theEXt,
he was sure the House would attest , the see_
which was due to the Noble Lord who had just
sat down, and join in the declaration which he was. e.
about to make, as the result of ,a convielion in his sseirsisible eve,.
exerted to excie_
mind that his Noble Friend' had no intention, iri
beCommerce in every part u..
the sentiment he expressed, to recommend any
excluded, if' possible,_
abatement of the high spirit of this Country, and prgiicable : that the, COmmerce
from h._
reposing upon our wealth independent' of our courage. would be _
Such a sentiment had never been uttered, and he part of Europe. Thar such,. indeed, might be L.
was confident had never been harboured. by his disposition,,
Noble Friend. The whole of his public life
of Peace; every exertion
had been made to give , night, cut 01. .- ,
a continued series of proofs to. the contrary : every . ~ ,
all
,during
t
which was peculiar to a state I-1e had s.. . a
tx,
4 sentiment that had ever been uttered by him in that it, effecl, over Europe,
•.• •
~
. , the Whole War. the occasion, When the ~...,
, •
• .
~, 2
• • . ...
-f
-
, .
.
-L:2-2-' .--.- -

mu& relative to the ollse'rvations that had been
made, though they were not -stridly 'to the ques:.
tion ; and when he contemplated the spirit) the
energy,. and the firmness displayed on every occa- •
sion by the Cotintry, he could. not 'for a moment
conceive that there was the least cause for alarm.—
Let Britons trust to themselves and they had
nothing to fear.
Mr. WINDHAM. said, the subjed before the
House had not appeared to him to be of, any great
importance, although it had been argued at greAt
length by his Hon. and Learned Friend. The NO.
hie Lord had urged a very brilliant statement of the
prosperity of the Commerce of this Country, but he-
was afraid that such a statement would create too
great a confidence in the People, and prevent them
from guarding, against those dangers by which they
were surrounded. The Noble Lord, however, had
left the question where- he (blind it, not, having .
touched upon those points of objection which had
been urged by his Hon. and Learned Friend. He
had no doubt that they ought to take oft these
Countervailing buties; the only question was as to
the time, and whether it. was proper to pass an Ad
to take off the Countervailing Duties, before it was
_known that the duties in America had been abo- ,
lished. The Consideration of this question led him,'
as it had led the Noble Lord, to other topics. His
Hon. and Learned Friend had mentioned a design on
the,part of France, to destroy our Commerce during
a period of Peace : the Noble Lord refused to give
any credit to a prOphecy of thy` destruction of our.
Commerce during Peace, because it had been prophe-
sied that War would destroy our. Commerce, and that
, prophecy had proved erroneous. That might be an
argument against believing any prophecy, or it
might •be urged against giving credit to the same
, set of men, who, upon the same principle, prophe-
sied the destruction of our. Commerce equally by,
War and by Peace ; but sureiy to contend that, be.
cause one set of .men prophesied the destrudion of
one Commerce by War, ana were mistaken, that
therefore another set of mer, who, upon a different
principle, prophesied the destrudion of our Com-
merce by Peace, were entitled to no credit, was not
very logical or conclusive. The Noble Lord had
said, that our Commerce had found its way into all
the Ports of Europe, io spite of every prohibition ;
but this assertion might only extend to a certain
degree—it did not follow, that because our goods
found their :way into these Potts, or were even
landed, that they might not be stopped by some in-
land prohibitiOn.—That France shewed a disposi-
tion to destroy the Commerce of this Country was,
he thought, so evident, that it was ;t kind of comic
extravagance to doubt it. , They told us they would
do it, and shewed us how they would do ; buy
yet • we said we could not believe 'it—it mtr,,t be a
joke. We had now to contend against a Power
which had not been seen since the days of the Ro-
mans, or at-least since the time of CHARLEMAGNE.
It did- not appear to him, that Capital and Confi-
dence were sufficient to enable us to contend against
this enormous Power ; to .them must be added, the
great Maritime Strength of the Country—to.thein
must be added, • the proud Independence and manly
Spirit of the Country—to them must be added, that
.high sense of Honour, which was not prone to sub-
init to degradation or to insult'. He would agree
with his Noble Friend upon the value of capital and
confidence, of Honesty and Punduality, but he must.
also-be allowed to set a value upon'the Arms of the,
Cotintry.. . _Before this Country possessed Capital or
Commerce, she made a figure in Arms ; hut now it
seemed to be an- opinion with many, that when
our Navy was up, we might go to bed. He hoped
that .a sense of the danger which threatened us
would rouse the people to those exertions which
were necessary to guard them against those designs
by which we, were to be. destroyed. When his-,
Noble Friend talked of Capital and Wealth, he
begged Gentlemen. to consider what Capital and
Wealth had done, or what it would do. We could
not judge in this rase from anterior events, we
were now. in a situation wholly dissimilar to any
former situation in which we had, been placed, a!nd
to which no prinCiple drawn froni former events
would apply. Our present situation must be judged
of from its own circumstances, and could not be
considered in any point of view derived from .for-
mer experience. It could not be argued that the
same advantages could now be drawn from Capital ,
and Wealth as in former circumstances) because
those circumstances could not be applied" to our
present situation. He would not dwell longer upon
these topics, but merely repeat, with respett to the
question, that the measure appeared to be prema-
ture, as we'did not yet know that the duties ,in
America were abolished.

Lord HAWTESBURY: rose to explain, and ob-
served, that his Hon. Friend would not have mis-
represented what he stated, but Might have mis-
conceived it. He had maintained; that the Com-
merce and the Capital of this Country were suf.
ficient for the purposes which he had stated, if we
were true to oursebves. By being true to ourselves
he meant, not merely to trust to our wealthy and he
thought he had guarded against any misconception
in that particular by what he said, both previous to
the use of that expression and after it : namely,
that no man was more convinced than he was, of
the absolute necessity of our, holding high our Na-
tional Honour, and to consider it as the most va-
luable of all our treasures, and consequently, the
necessity of resisting every,aet of degradation, hu-
miliation, or improper concession. *E he difference
between him and his Hon. Friend on that subjed
he believed was this, that he considered our power,
in that respeet, was more' effeecual than his Hon,.
Friend seemed to suppose' it to be, comparing our
resources' with those we had to contend with.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he was sure the House would attest the- sentiment
which waS due to the Noble Lord who had just
sat down, and join in the declaration which he was
about to make, as the result of ,a convitio►i in his
mind that his Noble Friend• had no intention, in
the sentiment he expressed, to recommend any
abatement of the high spirit of this Country, and
reposing upon our wealth independent of our courage.
Such a sentiment had never been uttered, and he
was confident had never been harboured by his
Noble Friend. The whole of his public life was
a continued series of proofs to the contrary i every
sentiment that had ever been uttered by him in that

frotit'e, and every aelion cf hii life proved him to
.possess 4- spirit that would not compronlise theln-
terests of his Country, by reposing wills confiderce',
upon its wealth, independent of its. Military exer.
tions. He knew/ of no Man in that House, .or in
this Cobntry, to whom such an imputation could he
made with less propriety ; and indeed, it was matter
too much of course .to assume that a high lofty
spirit of courage and vigour were incompatible
With commerce, and the pursuits of gain ; and that
a Nation could not excel in both. This was a sere_
timent which in reason was not juste-in policy was
not eligible, in experience, as applicable at least 'to
this Country, absolutely false; for; we had found
in the course of the last twelve years, a growing
commerce, and certainly not •a declining a spitit of
ardour, of zeal, and courage, in the cause of our
Country, manifested in all the exertions of our
Army, of our Navy, and every branch of the
public force ; • every, part of the public service
repudiated and falsified ,the supposition that a
commercial and a wealthy country cannot . pre_
serve its advantages over other States by unit-
ing military excellence .with its superior. wealth ;
this Country was happily a splendid instance
.of both. His Right Honourable Friend had dwelt
on a topic on which it was natural.he should; and;
indeed, it was one of those subjeas which no lover
of his Country could contemplate without sharing
in a feeling of apprehension—he meant the power
of France. This was a power which he had never
endeavoured. to 'under-rate, and, he was willing to
confess, he contemplated with apprehension : but
he trusted there was nothing to be dreaded.from
that power, when compared with our own. This
only induced in us a sentiment which called ,upon
our vigilance, and, if necessary, our exertions.—
We might be placed in'a state of difficulty, but cer-
tainly notOf alespondence. He did not seek for a
counterpoise to the power of France- merely in the
wealth of Great Britain, although indeed that was
most abundant., but it Was' to be found in the ani-
mus of the People;
.and under all exigencies, 'that
spirit would be tile true conservator of its power,
and prOteatir of its dominion. 'Were it not- for
that spirit, he should indeed look upon France as a
Colossus, as a tremendous power,- likely to over-
wheltil us , hut when. he perceived that spirit aided
and supported by' the weath, and rewarded by the
prosperity and glory.of the Nation, which afforded
,nit consolation only, but triumph—independent of
such a spirit we should be miserable indeed, hut
with it, we had nothing to fear. It was a spirit
'that was tried upon many occasions, and had never
beer. found wanting—lt was here. that he looked
for the true counterpoise of, the power of France,
and here, he believed and trusted, he should never
rook for it in vain. His Right Hon. .Friend, in re-
ference to the 'Bill now upon the Table, rather nar-
rowed the objed of, his Hon. and Learned Friend
fir. LAWRENCE), if he would permit him to call
SO.- His Right tion 'Friend seemed chiefly to
objet to the time of bringing this subjea forward,
which was certainly a narrower point of view than
that in which his Learned Friend had taken
His: Right Honourable Friend stated this as ,par-.
taking too Mach rather of that conciliatory
spirit, which migia be injurious if carried to
too great an extent, as he thought it might he
in sonic instances, by which he. considered the
power of this Government might be weakened. As
to that conciliatory spirit, he was ready to admit,
that unlesS accompanied by firmness, it was dange-
-rods- to a State but if firmne-sa wan united to a
conciliatory spirit, it was likely to produce the most
desirable effeds—a disposition and a feeling of the
same kind in others. That was the sense in which
he wished tolareserve 'a Conciliatory spirit, and in
that view it appeared to him the best, because the
easiest, and at the same • time the most effectual
means of linking the interests of the two Countries.
His H6n. and Learned Friend seemed to suppose it
a gratuitous and voluntary measure on our ,part to
adopt the principle of the present Bill ; this, his
Hon. and Learned Friend would permit him to state,
was a 'misapprehension of the faa. The principle
of this Bill originated with the American Govern-
' merit ; it was not, as his Hon. and Learned Friend
had stilted it, a precipitate.and incautious' ad of
good nature on the, part of this Country ; it -did
not originate with us, it originated in America, arid
it was in Consequence of an application made on the
part of the.Goyernment of that Country to this;
that the measure now before the Hose was brought
forward. It had been stated also, that the principle.
of this Bill was hostile to. the Navigation LaWsol`
this Country, which it certainly was not,'but which
he would not now argue, since that subjed, as well,
indeed, as almost every Other, had been anost ably
discussed by his Right H n. Friend. It had been asked
also, what benefit would be detived tram the mea-
sure which was now before the House ? To which
he answered, it was a benefit to the Export Trade,
and it was a benefit also to us, -in preserving time
advantages and profits of the Trade, arising from
consignments and deposits ; these were, some of the
-advantages Which this measure was likely to pro-
duce to the trading interests of this Country, andin
that view, it was an interesting objed, But, in-
:dependent of this, there was an obligation upon
use which superseded considerations of expediency ;
the obligation of the Treaty of i79e itself, which
left us no alternative ; besides, without such a mea-
sure as this, the real understanding between this
country and America could never be carried into
Offed, for the system of. Countervailing Duties could
never operate as an equivalent, and this arose from the
different natures of our trades; and that consideration
would be an inducement to adopting this measure
if were not required by the spirit Odic Treaty.
It had been said by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
WINDHAm), that we calculated precipitately ort the
probability dour continuing to preserve the same
advantages in Commerce during Peace, as we pos-
sessed in War; and he said, that as soon as that de-
sirable event.should take place, every effort would
be exerted to exclude us- from the advantages of
Commerce in every part of the world where it was
pradicable: that the, COmmerce of Great Britain
,would be excluded, if possible,_ from the greater
part of Europe. That such, indeed, might be the
disposition,- he could easily conceive, but it was
not a disposition which was peculiar to a state
of- Peace; every exertion had been made to give
ill effea, all over Europe, during the Whole War.

VO,

We li:Jd been eteladedieas fat as' the power of ,
Enemy could go, and yet, notwithstanding all the
ravages of War, which must have diminished 'cone
siderably the demands for many of our articles of
trade, 'British Commerce had found its way every
where : it was now in. extent 'Very little short of
What it was, at the commencement of hostilities. Btit •
there was another point in „which to. view this .sub- •
jed, and that was, the'Commerce which we must;
at all events, have from our, East India Possessions,
and, by this measure, from America. What then
was there in Peace that was likely to abridge these
two great sources of Commerce and Revenue ? He
certainly knew of nothing that was likely to pro,
duce that effect ; but supposing that the spirit' of
exclusion was greater' in Peace than in War, he
did not therefore see any reason for not adopting
the measure Row before the House ; on the con-
trary, it rather _increased the obligation to adopt
it, as being the means of increasing our Commerce •
and Revenues, and giving us radical advantages
which it would not be in the power of France to
interrupt. It therefore was- not only a justification
for entertaining the Bill now before the House, but
was an inducement to. adopt it. In a word, his
Noble Friend had gone through the whole of
that Bill, and discussed its merits so amply and so
ably, as, vvithou't intending any direspea to his
Hon. FriendS on the other side of the House, left
no doubts upon the subject ; he had fully answered
all that was stated on the other side, from which he
was led to imagine, that all the objedions to the
Bill were'now done away. The most strong and
powerful observations of his Hon. Friends on. the
other side did not apply' to the provisions of this
Bill, nor to its principle, but merely to the time ;
nor did he know of-any legitimate reason against
any part of the measure now before the House.
Mr. NICHOLLS said, that some of the argu.
ments used by the Hon. Gentlemen on the other
side, required, in his opinion, to be answered.
Gentlemen had stated the formidable power of .
France. The danger to which we 1% ere exposed in
our Commerce and Political Power. No man had
more apprehension of the power of France than
himself,, and if he 'was at, advocate for Peace, it
was for the purpose of affording to Europe an op-
portunity of gaining strength, so as to be able here-
after to balance the power of eFeence. However
great the power of France might be, and dim_
gerous to cur Political Power, he would 'put
it to'. the feeling of every, man in the House,
whether that consideration should not operate
as a reason for our cultivating, a good understand-
ing between. this Country and. America? Viewed in a
commercial light, there was no country which offer,
ed to become so good-a customer to us as Ame-
rica : Every hour increased her demand; for our
goods, for our manufaaores. She would always,
.orat least a very long while continue to purchase
our manufaaures, for they would long continue to
want them, as-did indeed most of the nations of the
globe, but the Americans particularly, from their
customs and their habits, 'and again from the very
high price of labour in America that country would •
always be prevented from rivalling us in the foreign
marker. It had been said on a former night, by
a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WINDHAM), that
there is' now remaining'out of the grasp of „France,
only two Independent ['ewers on the Continent
Russia and Austria' e taking that to be so, he con.
sidered that es an additional reason for this court.
try cultivating a good understanding and com.
cnereial conneaion With ,Ameeica—lt was said
that this was an improper time to adopt this
measure, or to think of a Treaty of this kind. He •
thought the contra& ; he considered the time and the
circumstances of both Countries highly favourable
for the adoption of such a measure as this—He apt.
proved also of the form, as well as principle of the
Bill, on account of its lodging. the power- of the
Treaty, that is, giving the discretion, whether the .
Provisions of it shall be adopted or not, to the
Crown. The whole original power concerning
Treaties, was of right; constitutionally, in the
Crown. The power of the other two branches of
the Legislature, was only that of considering these
Treaties, and of deliberating on measures for car:
tying them into effect. He approved, the'refore, of
the measure before the Holls.e,'. as it tended to re-
establish the Constitutional 'Prerogative of the
Crown in this t-espeEt ; a point, in his opinion,
highly proper,, and CondUcive to the substantial in.
terest of this Country, at this period. The Hon.
and Learned Gentlemap seemed to think, that Mr.
J FFERSON might, from the habits of his edueation
and political principles, be inclined co favotir France
rather than this Country.- He would not undertake
to. say, how that might .be ; but if the case be
so, he considered it as an additional reason for
this Country adopting' this measure, in order that
we might unite-the more closely with AMerica, and
by so doing, coonteraaalfat disposition the-Chief
Magistrate of. the United Stales : so that his par-
tiality to Franc,. if he had any, might be the less
detrimental 'to this Country. Viewing this mea-
sure in the, best and most comprehensive way 'he
was able, he was led to approve. it very much.
He applauded
.the wisdom of Ministers in coming
to ParliaMent with .a measure, the effea of which
would be to draw into a closer connection this
Country and America. A policy, in his opihion,
of. the soundest kind, in the present condition of the
affairs of the world : Lot these reasons he thought
it his duty to declare himself decidedly in favour of
this and . he thought Ministers entitled to
great credit for bringing it forward.
The question was then put and the Bill was' read
a second time. e

The question being put, that the Bill be commit-

Dr. LAWRENCE took ticeasion.tp observe, that
what he before said, might' perhaps require some
explanation. He merely meant to discharge hi;
duty in the House, by calling on it to be cautious
in what it was about to,adopt ; but he could not do
that, nor,any other duty effectually, if-he did not
puarimself right with those who were to judge of
the performance of that duty, namely,' the Hortse...
He should therefore., with permission, correct a few
unintentional errors, N%:hich appeared in the speech
of the Noble Lord on the oth-er side ofthe House.
He had said, that..a luotatiOn had heal' made 'to.
night, cut 4.a book, whichshe 'might have read on
the occasion, when the subjea of the clairuS -o.f. the

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