The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-06 00:00:00

LONDON,

the aglar:fsufiseso.f Worcester. (the present Duke of Beaufort) to have economy, the Govern -cut had agr:ed to a reduction, adduced the case of the Duke of Euccleuch, a noble-
acting of tile grand jury, with all the men of to commence from the beginning of the anauciel year. man of vast wealth, who would not be likely to
• IVproperty
.1 the county for his fellows-the formers and yen- With respect to Turkey, which was the only other coun- give up his time to fill any office of Government, and
men ing as petty jurors, and a person of high legal at- try where we had an Ambassador, our relations with that therefore he was put into a sinecure office. But those were
Lei nients at the bar presiding over the Court. What struck country were of such a nature that it was very desirable the very offices that the Noble Lord said ought to be given
. talottiesfo_r,eigner on this occasion was the manner in which per- that the embassy sh aeld be continued.- (Hear, hear.) With to people who had not the means to support themselves. If
ogpanibii various ranks were brought together and employed in respect to Vienna, the Government had already changed our they wanted more members ef the Government-and he ad-
-
Justice inc service. In that case it was the admicistrati n of Ambassador into an Envoy. The Committee recommended nutted that the members of the Cabinet genetally, the Prime
• to be
eehe which all were engeged. It ought in some degree various other changes in our diplomatic arrangements. Minister and the other great officers of State, were fully
be maLdue Berne in political affairs, and an endeavour should They proposed that our various missions in Germany should worked, and deserved all the remuneration they received-
. 'with „0 to unite in a . eovernment men of other occupations be united into one single mission at one central point. He and if money was the only remuneration, he (Mr• Cobden)
• ig. :n se who were engaged in the reading and folding up did not himself think that such a change W 33 at any time maintained that no money could remunerate the Noble Lord,
the_dispatches. In coming to a conclusion upon these points, desirable; but he thought it was quite obvious that, haring or any me filling his office, for the trouble, toil, anxiety,
deter so far agreed with the Committee as to have maintained missions there for a great number of years, and and wear and tear which a Prime Minister must go through.
gatnrerined on doing what had not been done for a long time, that at the present moment there was in every Court of Ger- -(Hear.) But it was not money alone that was their re-
oafitiecralseparating the office of Master of the Mint from Po- many a different opinion with respect to the future organize- ward, It was patronage, glory, fame, and he hoped there
life; and he had her Majesty's g-acious permission to tion of Germany, and that there were different interests and was some patriotism in the case too. They often heard of
tiagehhe office to Sir John Herschel. (Hear, hea . ) It was different views with respect to the future constitution and our being a loyal people. He wished that could be shown in
, eat that it would be agreeable to that gentleman to fill future condition of Germany, we should not at this moment connexion with the salaries of those who setved the Crown.
r• which
in some degree connected with science, and with deprive ourselves of the means of obtaining information upon In America they received small salaries, but they were con-
ah'Lecambe name of Newton was associated. - (Hear, hear.) these points.- (Ilear.) The Committee had suggested that tented to serve their country, and have the trust and confi-
. politicalastership of the Mint would no longer be a separate the mission at Florence might be united with that at Turin, dence of their fellow-countrymen reposed in them. He wanted
ether. office, as it was when held by Mr. Tierney and an arrangement which he thought was open to some objet. our Ministers to look to office as a high honour. Then there
oi; h nor combined with the presidentship or yice-presialent- tion. They had also recommended the mission at was another department to which the Noble Lord referred-
, 1,,'..) of the Board of Trade, as it was held bY Mr. Gladstone, Florence might be united with one at Rome. Now, he ad- the judicial department; He was not going to make the
the habouchere, and others. The office of Paymaster of milted that it might be very desiraale that the mission at reductions of salaries which had been recommended by the
eaerecirces was a separate office two years ago, when he Florence should be made the means of communicating with Committee, and he spoke of the necessity of having barristers
. 11cl-fa...rin arrangement for joining it with that of the the Court of Rome. Although the Diplomatic Relations of first-rate practice and high attalninent to fill the office of
ae t
office
of the Board of Trade. It was formerly Act, passed three years ego, had never come into operation judge. Now ae (Mr. Cobden) thought there was a mon-
aaßO,ace of great emolument, and was held by Lord in consequence of the Pope having thereby been placed in a strous exaggeration as to the amount of earnings of barris-
the
offices
and the first Lord Holland. Having combined different position from other Sovereigns, the Government tors in the p-esent day, because any candid and intelligent
fee auloces of Paymaster of the Forces and Vice-President of understood that the Court of Rome would be ready at any man at the bar would tell you that latterly, with the slight
. the ard of Trade, he did not think it expedient to adopt time to receive a special mission. Recent circumstances, to exception of occasional busines before Parliamentary Com-
50•0auggestion of the Committee, and diminish the salary which it was tint necessary now to allude, might render a mittees, oi a period like the railway mania, when vast fore
ataa,a, year. The combined office was one of considerable pt- special mission to Rome at present unadvisable ; but, at the tunes were made in two or three years, there was no depart-
geh"mPortance, and if the President of the Board of Trade same time, we must look forward to having relations at some meat of professional exertion in this country in which there
, president
House of Commons it was expedient that the Vice- future time with that Court, and certainly the mission at was a greater tendency to the diminution of earnings than
take charge
should be in the other House, where he must Florence would be tae most convenient mode of communicat- at the bar. There might be a few getti• g lafge incomes,
Goa' of all measures connected with his office The ing with it.- (Hear.) He had now state t the proposals but the general tendency was to diffuse the business over a
eaaVernent, therefore, prorosed to continue the salary of made by the Committee, and the manner in which the Go- greater number of barristers. Under there circumstances
age • a year to the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. vernment proposed to act. They had felt themselves at full surely firs -rate talent might be got to take the office of
thasaawbat he had said the House would be prepare ito hear liberty to consider whether th.se recommendations were in judge for 6,000/. o- 7,0001. a year. A barrister had to go
. Seal,_ ha did not propose to abolish the office of Lord Privy conformity with the interests of the public service, and to through an almost inconceivable amount of toil to maintain
age, (Hear, hear.) He came next to the office of Secra- decide according to their views. In any way, whether they a first-rate practice and a higa position at the bar. Now in
- mattes
a% ar ; but, as no proposition was made by the C ,m- took the proposals of the Committee or those of the Govern- appointing a man to a judgeship you withdrew him from
r with respect to that office, it was not necessary to say vernment, no such saving would be effected as would exhibit that competition -.you gave hltn a compe.ence for life,
: anythingco upon that point at present. The Committee re- any great economy in the public expenditure. What was aid secured him
a retiring pension ; so that in taking
rearnded that the Judge-Advocete should have 1,500'. a really desirable was, that there should be no further expen- into account the honour, the comparatively easy
into instead of 2,0001., and that the question should be taken diture with respect to their political, judicial, or diplomatic mode of obtaining his income, and the certainty of
It was Consideration on the next appointment to than office. services, than was justified by the services performed; but a retiring allowance, he thought 6,0001. or 7,0 .0/; a year
that not necessary, therefore, to come to any decision upon on the other hand it would be a most unwise economy for amply sufficient to secure the very best talent in the
• consideration
at present, as it would again come under the tee sake of a very few thousands, to prevent those who country. There were men who had been puisne judges
Lord,
of Government. [So we understood the Noble were conducting the great affairs of the nation from per- who never earned 3,0001. a year at the bar, whilst Lord
• s but he spoke so low that we had great difficulty in forming their duty in an efficient manner. He was Abinger earned 20,0001. a year, and many of those who had
ahring what he said.] With respect to the Admiralty, the persuaded that in the government of a great empire only earned $,(001. might be better men than Lord Abinger.
Committeeshould
recommended that the salary of the junior Lords eke this it was most desirable that there should be an He thought that 5,000/. a year was too much for the puisne
re-
who be I,oooe a year. instead of 1.2001, and that those efficient performance of the great duties which devolved on judges; and he felt dissatisfied that in this and other re-
. hived
had now 1,00 1. a year with residences should be de- public officers. For himself he could assure the House that spects the Government had not attended to the recom-
-1)t. wed of residences. The Government were of opinion that in the various offices which he had held, he had found the mendations of the Committee. It was very discouraging
of the
of great convenience to the department that certain labour and am unt of responsibility such as to require the to those who sat upon Committees, and was almost enough
.vtirthe Lords should reside at the Admiralty; and they use of all the faculties of which a person might be possessed; to lead him to adopt the principle of the Hon. Member
Mary,
proposed to agree to the proposed reduction of and whatever might be thought of the relaxation and re- for Montrose, to decline serving upon Committees when he
but to maintain the residences.-( Hear, hear.) With creation enjoyed by public men, they were but very few hours, could, seeing that their recommendations were so little
.7°Peet to the office of Secretary for Ireland the C ,mmittee and certainly riot many days in the course of the year, in at' ended to.
proposed that the salary be reduced from 5,5001. to which the mind of any person in a high political position was
not affected with anxiety.-( Hear. ) Many important goes- Lord PALMERSTON-I shall follow the example of the
of 0/, when a vacancy occurred. This question was,
course, closely connected with that of the abolition tions came before that House, but, after all, that formed but Member for the West Riding rather than his precept, for he
era the office of
wet Lieutenant of Ireland. If the office of a part of the duties end anxieties of a Government-many began by saying that the discussion should not be gone int*
, ihard•Lieutenant were abolished, it would of course place questions Of foreign and colonial policy, which were of the this evening, and ended by discussing all the Points which
. Tie
office of Secretary on abonshad,
totally different footing. utmost importance at the time, which, perhaps, never at had been alluded to by the Noble Lord.
.I think it right
;_ did not think it necessary to go into that ques. Exacted public attention, although they might have occupi d to say one or two words with respect to the arrangements
:awe at present, as it must before long be again brought days and weeks of consideration, and caused the greatest
'that
the consideration of Parliament. He would only say, anxiety. - (Hear.) He did not know any persona holding to which the Hon. Gentleman alluded. In reference to the
:thatif the office of Lord-Lieutenant was to be retained, he public offices who had any great interest in asking for any Ambassador at Paris, I don't expect to make a convert of
thought it would be desirable and right to make a reduction extravagant salary, but he was sure it was the interest of the Hon. Member. I endeavoured to do so in Committee,
;il,llleM the present salary of the office of the Chief Secretary. the House to see the public service adequately remunerated, and tailed, and I am not likely to do so in this House.-
a kith respect to the Parliamentary Secretary of the Peor-law and that it should not be a bar to the highest offices that a (Laughte . ) But, at the same time, I must express my
"oard, tae Government proposed that the duties of that office man's fortune would not allow him to acce, tan office with strong conviction that the public service is greatly benefited
•trihould be performed for 1,000/. a year, instead of a5OO/., as an inadequate salary affixed to it. It was not considerations by maintaining an officer of the rank of Ambassador. at
ecotnineeeed by the Committee. With respect to the per- of salary, but or efficient service, which ought to weieh with Paris, as representing this country at the, I will not say
inanent secretaryship as that office was not Parliamentary, the House.-(Cheers.) Court, but Government of a great country like France.-
t•• - '
1 ,elll not properly come under the consideration of the Corn- Mr. URQUHART reminded the Noble Lord of- a state-
: 4attee ; and, in taking it into consideration themselves, the ment which he had made shortly after he ebb-. Urquhart) (t'OOI.
Hear, hear) We have reduced the salary from 10,000/. to
8,000/. ; and I can assure the Hon. Gentleman, that although
evernment were of opinion that with respect to a perma- entered that House-that the government in former days he may think a Republican form of Government involves a
bent office of this kind, as it was most desirable to have the occupied itself more with dischargi g this duties of its diminution in the scale of expenditure, any one who knows
services of a person who should devote all his time and various departments, leaving the business of legislation the state of Paris at this moment will know that there is not
fahour to the duties of the office, they should not make any in the hands of independern Members. He thought that that change in tne habits of society which seems to be im-
!eduction of the salary at present allotted to him.-(Hear, system might be renewed with advantage. In his opinion, plied in the opinion of the Hon. Member.-(He.ar, hear.) I
hear.) With respect to the judicial salaries, there were the whole value of the report consisted in the la ter part. think it due to my Noble Friend now occupying the post
• Yarious considerations of very great importance to which be The whole amount of reductions proposed by the Com- of Ambassador at Paris to say, that Englieh travellers who
tholleht the House should pay attention,-considerations mittee on civil and judicial salaries did not exceed 6,0001 go to Paris must not expect to receive from him, with his
reduced salary, that very large extent of hospitality which
Very different from those to which he had referred in con- or 7,0001 ; but in the diplomatic :salaries the sea ing would
ilexion with the political offices. The persons who were placed be between 60,0001 and 70,000/. The impor ante attached hitherto has been exercised, as a right on their part, and as
lathehighest offices in our judicial establishments had hitherto to diplomatic action had been overrated. He should imagine a duty on h( Laughter.) I think it fair to my Noble
.been persons of great eminence, of high legal reputation, hat the public newspapers, at the time in which they lived, Friend to give that public warning, especially since the new
• eine pood standing among the foremost at the bar. He was would be found much more ready and correct sources of in- arrangement of passports may induce greater numbers to
c
how-
now alluding to the offices of Lord Chancellor, Chief Jus- tormation than any Minister, however expensive, or
tvisit Par s, assuming that the passports they bear would en-
ices Master of the Rolls, and offices of that descrip' ion. It ever expensive his cook. If diplomatic establishments were
'll a ' title them to the tutuen ion of the amba.ssador there.-
ae been argued that there might be persons of sound judg- advocated on the ground of maintaining peace, he pointed (Renewed laughter.) ruts imilar ground applies to the em-
bassy at Constentinople. The post of ambassador gives a
-
see and competent learning who would be quite as fir to to the present state of Europe, which had fallen into a state
hold the highest judicial situations as those who were ac- of contusion, if not of positive hostility, ruder this very sys- peculiar weight to our diplomatic relations there, and that is
. , anowiedged to be foremost at the bar, No doubt there might tem. On these grounds he deplored the conclusion to which of great importance to the interests of this country. Butt he
taa certain cases be men of this description • but at the same the Noble Lord bad come not to adopt the recommends- Honourable Member says there is one power which has no
e,"rrie he must say that he did not think it desirable as a rule tions of the Committee for a reduction of diplomatic Ambassador at Constantinople, but which nevertheless exer-
aaat the ancient practice of promoting to those high offices establishments; but as he had a motion on the subject on ekes an influence as great or greater than ours, namely,
emen of the greatest eminence at the bar should be departed the book he would content himself with asking the Noble Russia. lam perfectly ready to admit the extent of the
,erten.-(l.lear, hear.) If the Government of the day were to Lord the Foreign Secretary when he intended to re-appoint influence ot Russia, but I venture to think that, considering
.eaopt the practice of choosing men whom they themselves the Committee on consular establishments; because, if so, lie the extent of the Russian empire, its great military power,
a°, nsidered to be men of competent legal learning and sound should move an ins ruction to examine into the grounds of its proximity to Turkey, and the fact that its policy is
Jedgrnent to fill those offices, a very wide discretion would the intercourse, and make a special statement, with the wielded by one single will-I think that if the Emperor had
evidently be placed in their hands, and there would be much names of the persons employed, and the nature of their par- only a single attaché at Constantinople to represent him his
:kore room for unfit appointments !ban when the i ractice was titular functions, with the view of seeing whether these es. influence would be much the same. The influence of the
,adhered to of appointing men who were distinguished, and tablishments were worth the cost of their maintenance. He Government of Russia depends not upon rank, but upon
Whom everybody allowed to be distinguished-men who should be prepared to prove that no country bad suffered the power of the two countries, and upon the proximity of
Were running the race, the arduous race, of legal competition, more from our interference than the Turkish empire. He Russia to the two hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
and who showed themselves among the foremost and most should ask the Noble Lord a question to-morrow with refer- says we have an example in the United States. As they give
successful in the race.-(Hear, hear )It was quite obvious once to the Hungarian refugees in Turkey, who, it appeared, only 2,000/. a year to their Minister, I presume he implies
"alit such men must be men of considerable talent and were to be d, tallied after all; which showed the futility of that something like that same scale would be sufficient for
aractice in their profession-a profession which compre- their diplomacy when the interests of England or the rights us. It is true that I stated to the Hon. Gentleman that
ended many thousands of persons of learning and ability- of nations were concerned. when :an 'American Envoy came into my room at the
' when they were universally acknowledged to be foremost in Mr. FRE WEN asked whether the motions of the Hon. Foreign-office to transact business, I never measure the
that profession.-(Hear, hear.) Besides, on looltieg back to Member for elontrose and the Hon. Member for Chippenham deference due to him or the weight to be attached to what
the men who had thus been promoted - men who had been would take Precedence of his, on going into supply upoa the he has to say by the amount of salary he a ceives. - (Hear,
ettecessful, perhaps, as Attorney-General, or who had at- naval estimates? , hear.) But you cannot ask any impartial American citizen
•'rained other great eminence at the bar-such men, for in- The SPEAKER said the motions of those two Hon. Mem- whether the public service does not suffer from the small
'tance as Lords Hard wieke, Camden, Eldon, Mansfield, and hers would have precedence, as having reference to the sub- allowance of salary assigned to the Mini ter, who will not
al'any 'others who might be named-he could not think the ject of the navy estimates. tell you that they are inconveniently low and that they
e-cluntry had been losers by the practice of choosing men who Mr. DEEDES trusted the House would permit him to oc- ought to be increased.-(Hear, hear.) We happen
Zvere the most eminent of the time for such offices.- (Hear, cupy their time fur a few minutes while he explained the now to have a most distinguished citizen of the
• hear.) But, if we had the most eminent men of the time reason why his name did not appear on the minutes of the United States, who has an ample fortune of his own,
ter such situations, we could not expect to obtain their ser- Committee when they came to the consideration of their reso- and who lives in a manner honoerable to himself and
c uaiess the salaries were salaries eomewhat commensu- lotions. Be was asked, in the first instance, to form part of the country which he represents. But there have
'Teterwith their gains at the bar, so as to induce them to the Committee, but stated that he was already occupied on been at former times representatives of the United States
ahaae the bar for such judicial aPPointments.-( Hear, the County Rates Committee, but that he would be very in this country, whose position has been painful to their own
hear.) It was necessary likewise to consider that.-(Hear,
with re- nappY to give his assistance, provided it were not iequired fee ings.-(Hear, hear.) It has been impossible for them to
'ePect to such men, they were placed, perhaps, in the House on the days on which his Committee sat. He was fortunate return those social courtesies which every person in this
of Lords, and they had provision to make for their fami- enough to be able to attend for some time, but subsequently country was happy to manifest towards them; and I think
'les ; and he thought it would be a public misfortune if their round it utterly impossible in any satisfactory manner to it would not be satisfactory to the feelings of Englishmen
ealaries and retiring allowances were such as obliged them to aischarge tee duties of both, and requested that his name that their representatives in foreign countries should be corn
maintain their families on insufficient means Such a state might be removed from the Committee in question. This, polled to be different from gentlemen residing in this country
ot things, he thought, would rather be a reproach to the, aowever, was not done. He was subsequently coin- -(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, we have reduced the embassy to
country than otherwise.- (Hear, hear.) [The Noble Lord pelted to leave town, and, on his return, was asked to attend Vienna to a mission; and when gentlemen complain that in
'then read an extract from the evidence taken before the and vote; but having been absent for some days, he telt he point of money there has been no saving, we have indeed
'Committee, showing that there were seven or eight gentle- should not properly discharge his duty if he had voted fur accomplished not a great saving, because the nature of the
Wien at the bar with incomes of 8,000/. a year, and 2ior 2 . resolutions without having heard the evidence ou which they circumstance did not admit of any large reduction, but at
.with incomes above 5,000e] The Government proposed that were founded. the same time a saving of some magnitude, as compared with
!he salary of the Lord Chancellor, which was at present Mr. W. W I LLIAMS wished to know if the Government the saving that would have resulted from the entire adoption
10,000/. from one source and 4,000/. from another, should in had any . bjection to lay on the table a statement. in the form of the report of the Commatee. At Paris there had been a
'attire be 10,000/. The retiring allowance they did not pr..- of a return, of all the items recomsneuded for reduction by saving of 2,000/., by the reduction of the salary from 10-000 t
Pose to alter. They proposed to agree with the Committee the Official Salaries Committee, stating the points with to 8,000/. •; at Vienna a saying of 4,0001, by reducing the
with respect to reducing the salary of the Master of the Rolls which the Government agreed, and those with which they salary from 9,000/. to 5,000/. •; and at Madrid a saving of
horn 70001. to 6,000 a With respect to the Chief Justices. disagreed. The statement of the Noble Lord was far from 1.000/., by reducing the salary from 6,000/. to 5,0001., sot hat
tensest to be borne in mind, that besides the ordinary ex- satisfactory. there was 7,0001 saved by the reduction of the salaries of
tenses to which the Master of the Rolls was subject, they Lord JOHN RUSSELL subsequently said he had no oh- the diplomatic officera. The Hen. Gentleman says this is a
• had
the expenses of their circuits to bear, which were not ject ion to lay such a statement on the table of the House. Peculiar time, when you might abolieh the minor missions in
esmated at less than 700/. a year. The dovernment, there- Mr. COBDEN thought it would, perhaps, be better not to Germany; and he differs from my Noble Friend, who thinks
fore,r proposed that the salaries of the Chief Justice should enter into any discussion to-night, as he and the Hon. hlem- the time peculiarlv inappropriate. It is' true that the
in-
be the same as those named in the Bill introduced last year. her for West Surrey were the only members of that Corn- Governments at Vienna and Berlin do exercise, as
hiz.,the chief Justice of the Queen's Bench 8,000/. a-eear, mittee present. but he might say, generally, it was with they must at all times exercise, a preponderating in-
tuclthe Chief Justice of the Common Pleas and the Chief disappointment he had heard that so large a proportion of fluence upon the affairs of Germany; but if there is any-
akron of the Exchequer 7,e00/. each. The proposal of the the reductions recommended in the diplomatic branch of the thing peculiar in the present state of affairs in Germany
Committee was that the salary of the Chief Justice of the service had been rejected by the Government. He thought bearing upon this questioe, I should remind the Hon. Gan-
g, ueen's Bench should be
as 1., the salaries of the Chiet it would be generally felt that if no saving could be effected tleman that to all appearances the old l)iet is going to be
austice of the Common Pleas and the Chief Baron r f the Ex- in that branch there was little chance of effecting any saving established at Frankfort, and one peculiar circumstance
The
f ,0001. each, and the Puisne Judges 5,000/. each. in the civil branch; and, weighing the statement of the connected with that is, that the decisions of the Diet re-
els Committee recommended than the Vice-Chancellors Neale Lord against the evidence taken before the Committee, mitred unanimity, and that, therefore, the will of every one
should have 5,000/- a year, the Masters in Chancery 2,000/. he did not consider he was justified in the course he was of these smaller states is likely to resume the influence it
each, and the Accountant-General 2,000/. He quite agreed taking.-( Hear.) Embassies to Paris and Constantinople possessed previous to the year 1848.-(Hear, hear.) But
that the Accountant-General should be paid by a fixed sa- were to be continued. The Noble Lord had spoken of the the information which we got from these smaller states
lary instead of, as at present, by fees. With respect to the advantages of an ambassador at Paris with a large salary; an a frequently of the greatest importance. and though the
Masters in Chencery, considering the importance of their du- ambassador was generally consid, red to be an individual re- Hon. Gentleman seems to think it is sufficient for Govern"
lies,he did not think it right that there sh •old be any change presenting the person of the sovereign at the court of another ment to rely upon the information it can get from the news-
en their salaries. but that they should remain at 2,5001. It sovereign-(Hear)-and if any form of government could papers, I will say that, however well informed the news-
ought to berres,
remembered that, the whole question of Chan- dispense with the pomp and pageantry and expense of an papers may be of events publicly known, a Government
ae.erY Reform being under •-consideration the offices of the ambassador it was the Gavern ~ent of a republic.,-(Hear.) that had no other source of information would, lam
alasters might or might not be changed, and, therefore, for Another reason, which did not exist when the Committee afraid, very soon fall into great disgrace in this country
ebatreason, as well as for others, he did not think it mad, its recommendation, was, that the President of .te and in Europe --(Hear, heat With respect to the other
eehpedient to alter their salaries at present.- ( Hear, 'French Republic, by a recent vote of the Chamber, would offices, my Noble Friend stated, in a manner that ought
Pair.) None of the changes to which he had alluded receive, in tutur ~ a much less salary. He (Mr. Cobden) to satisty the mind,,of any reflecting man, that it is of great
Would affect those persons aho had been appointed before presumed the sales of studs lots horses and carriages, and the importance to Goveininent that there ahould be offices
the co
of last yeah It would be remembered greater simplicity with which the Presid nt• of the French to which no great degree of daily labour is attached, but
that he stated on a former occasion that persons appointed Republic now appeared in the streets, bespoke a greater sim- which being connected with the Cabinet may enable then
after the commencement of last year would be appointed plicity and economy in the Government of France, and we to have, as members of the Administration, persons of great
subject to any new arrangement that might be Proposed. ought to conform in our diplomatic relations to that time political knoevledge, of great talents, of great public character ;
'The Committee also recommended a new scale of salaries for proved system of government.-( Hear, hear.) But, he con- but who, either through age, infirmitiese or any other
Scotland and Ireland-a scale involving a diminution 01 fessed, as far as he ha.l had aa opportunity of hearina• the evi- circumstances, however able to be useful advisers to their
Salaries to no very large amount, and by which a small saying could not gather from tne witnesses what were the colleagues, are yet unable to undergo the daily fatigue of a
Only would accrue to the public, but which he owned he did PeculiarP virtues and advantages connected with the mainte- laborious office. With respect to the law, Ido think that if
not think it expedient to make. Both in Edinburgh and nauce of the rank of an embassy, either at Paris or Constan- there can be imagined aa economy- that would be injurious to
Dublin, particularly the former, the chief persona who had tinople. Russia, which was quite as influential a power at the interests of the count•-y, it would be an economy that led
.been at the head of society ever sinee the union had been Constantinople as England, hud ne ambassador, but a laere you to reduce too low the salaries of judicial officers.-(Heao
persons connected with the profession of the law, especially simple mission, and if England were placed on the same It may be true that you cannot predict beforehand that a
Judges, and those who held the superior offices in the courts footing he calculated she would enjoy the same advantages man who is a distinguished advocate should, on that account
of justice. For that reason he did not think it desirable to as the ussian G vernment. But to te another Govern- be an eminent judge but the presumption is in favour of
take from those persons the means of keeping up that social ment, chose Policy bad come under the consideration of the his being so-that the man who has shown great ability and
rank which they were expected to maintain in those coun- Committee. America had no ambassadors, and paid no commanding talent in one department of the law should also
tries, to an extent which would not be expected from Minister more than 2,000/. a year. He could not gather that distinguish himself in the judicial capacity. But if there is
them in London or in any other place where persons of the American Minister was less influential in any matter one thing more than any other that would be unfortunate for
peat fortune resorted, and where they mule consequently concerning the interests of his country or his fellow-cetizens, this country, it would be it the bar, instead of looking up to
De less conspicuously Placed- - ( Hear, hear.) He wished than the Ambassador or Minister of England, though the the bench, should look down on it-if the bench should be filled
to state this most distinctly with respect to both coun• latter was enjoying a salary of four or five times the amount. by petsons whose professional reputation should be less than
tries, and particularly with respect to Ireland, because he He recollected asking the Secretary of State for Foreign that of the persons pleading at the bar, and if the decisions
was aware that a rumour had been spread without any Affairs, whether the American Minister, entering the of the judges should therefore carry with them less weight,
sort of authority, that it was the intention of Govern- Foreign-office would have less weight with 2,0001. a and command less respect in the country, in consequence of
meat to change the provision for the administration of year than any other minister with 5,000/. a year, and the its being supposed that the men who gave them were men of
1, law in Ireland, either by a reduction or transfer of the 'Noble Lord admitted he would have just as much weight.- inferior ability and character to those who were pleading the
courts of justice. Now, there was never any such inten• (Hear, hear.) The Committee examined a diplomatic gen.. causes which the judges might decide.-(Hear, hear.) The
Usti on the part of Government, On the contrary, they tleman, and tried to elicit what were the duties of ministers Hon. Gentleman thinks 6,0001. or 7,000/, sufficient for a
, thought it was of great importance that the cuts of justice abroad, and what were the advant-ges of the high stipends judge. Well, ahe puisne judges have only 5,0 01 ;it is
Should be fully maintained in Ireland for the purpose of our ministers received, and they could not gather much more only chiefs to whom a higher salary is given. In reference
ntinistering justice locally in that part of the 'United King-ng_ than that there was great virtue in keeping a most expensive to those chiefs, the salanes are aeduced below what they
rem
fined hear.) The only other question that table, and a good dinner was the very soul of diplomacy.- were; but I think that, in savings of that sort, the actual
remained was that of the diplomatic salaries. On this ques- (Hear, and a laugh.) He could not imagine any coun pecuniary amount is quite undeserving of attention-(Hear,
lion he ought perhaps rather to ask his Noble Friend near gaining anything in which it was necessary to bring toots hear) -and will not compare with the greatly more kn..
him, the secretary of State for Foreign Affairh to express aid the accomplishment of a cook, however great he might ministeredet the law of the country should be ad-
' hie opinion to the House. He was sure his Noble Friend be._ (Cheers.) With regard to Germany, the Committee in a manner to command the confidence and re-
vrould be ready to give any explanation that might be re- recommended that missions to third-rate courts should not spect of the people of this country. For depend upon it, if
' gaited; but in the meantime he (Lord John Russell) would be continued, but the Noble Lord said now was the time your courts of law were to cease to hold that position in
State showy what took place in Committee with respect to when we ought not to change, Now was the time of all the public estem which I am happy to see they
.do now-
these important offices. and what it was that Government others when we ought to make a change, when the whole if the people wee to think the decisions were given erro-
Proposed to do. There was a question in the Committee affairs of Germany were centralled at Vienna and Berlin. neously from want of capacity or want of knowledgea ownoutnhde
with respect tO the maintenance of an Ambassad• r at Never was there a time before when the policy of Germany part of the judges, you would shake the confidence of the
Paris, and, as he understood from the chairman of the was so completely engrossed at those two courts. The Go- people in the constitution of the country, inflicting
Committee, it was decided by a majority to maintain vernment had discontinued the ambassador at Vienna, and upon the public interest which the saving of a few thonsands
all Ambassador. Afterwards some of the members of the it was now simply a mission Tbe same rule ight be of pounds could not make up, the evil effects of which no
anajority stated that they thought the p esent salary should followed out, and the missions to the minors ourts of amount of money could counterbalance.-(Cheers.)
be reduced, upon which the other members Of the Committee GermanY be abolished ; and he hoped to have the oppor- Mr. HUME agreed with the Noble Lord, that it was of
were of opinion that if the salary were reduced it would be tunny
of tithing the opin on of the House on that question. great importance, to keep up the credit of the country, to
unpossible for an Ambassador to maintain the dignity of his The Noble Loud had said it was a great advantage to have judges who might be looked up to; and it was the duty
Position, and that it would be better to reduce the embassy have certain members of the Government, who had of the Ministry to select men of the highest public and Pri-
to the rank of a mission with a salary of 5,000/. In coma- not very heavy (let es to perform, in order that vale character for such offices. But that was not the rule in
dering this mat er the Government were of opinion that it their services might be brought to the aid of the other mem- this country. Political chances threw people on the surface,
would be a very serious detriment to the public service that bers of the Cabinet who were overworked. If the parties and men were placed in situations high and honourable, who
thereshould be no longer an Ambassador at Paris.-(Hear, appointed to those offices were generally selected on account. if the selection remained with the profession, would never
hear. ) Considering the relations which we had with that of their possessing the talent necessary to enable them to aid
. have occupied such positions -(Hear, hear.) He could
country-considering. the daily intercourse that was required, the other members of the Government, he should say there name instances-and he would do so if necessary- where in-
"id considering thet an Ambassador had certain privileges would be some virtue in such a course of policy. -For in- diviauals had been thrown into high and important situations
, . which did not belong to an Envoy, and by which we thereby stance, the Noble Lord said that when he was Paymaster of to which they would never do honour or credit ;at all events
secured considerable advantage-the Government were of the Forces, he was enabled to come to the aid of the Govern- the chances were greatly against such a result. He con-
°Pinion that the difference of expense was far more than me upon great and pressing occasions. He (Mr. Cobden) sidered that the fact of their giving the judges a retiring Pelle
counterbalanced by the maintenance of friendly relations by ; had no doubt tbat the Noble Lord, however little be might sion should secure for them the services of the most talented
means of an Ambaissador intenris.
Paris. At the same time, they i have to do, would be one of the most efficient members of men, at smaller salaries than were at present paid. The
took into consideration the question whether some reduction 1 any Government. But it could not be shown generally that fact was that the whole society of England was in too high a
might not be made; and they had come to the resolution of 1 those sinecure offices were filled by very able and talentedl tone.-(Laughter.) Every class of expenditure, from that of
Proposing a reduction of 2,000/. a year, viz., a reduction I men.-(Hear, lime) But the Noble Lord said it was neces- the eer downwards, was beyond what the people had means
from 10,000/, to B,ooel. a year in the salary of the Amhas- ' sary to give good salaries in order that Government might • to afford; and hence, if the people could hang any portion
seder. He was by no means certain that we should not find cell to their aid men whose fortunes might be moderate, and ot their family upnn the Government, they were only too
hereafter that for the purpose of maintaining the proper dig- who Lad not the means of living upon their own resources. ready to do it.-( Hear.) He wanted to see an economical
nitY of our Ambassador the sum was too small. It was only N. av he thought that if individuals were called in to the aid Government, but at the same time one whose servants should
the other day he was looking at a letter from our Ambassa. of a the who had not wealth or rank to recommend be well paid, though the present high rates of remuneration
don e P ;
a- - ens in 1783, in which it was stated that be could them, they would be men who had fought their way up, and °wilt to be moderated. If the diplomatic service could not
_hot maintain himself properly and efficiently as Ambassador ; whose talents would command remuneration in Government i be reduced, he despaired of any great reduction being made
Upon
len than 12,000/. .ts year.- (Hear, hear.) .13at, how- 'or elsewhere. Out the Nplgo Lord gay.) an answer in the expenditures England required to keep up a Vera'