The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-19 00:00:00

HOUSE-TAX BILL.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the second
reading of this Bill. The imposition of this tax would
relieve the country from another tax which was con-
demned generally—namely, the window tax. The new
tax would produce about 700,0001, an amount consider-
ably less than was raised from the window tax.
Lord MONTEAGLE said no one would wish to
throw out a Bill that would afford so much relief to the
taxpayers of the country. He would, however, remind
the House that a possibility existed of the finances of the
country experiencing a season of difficulty, in conse-
quence of toe repeal of permanent taxes, and at a time
when the property-tax was only continued for one year,
and might at the end of that year not be again imposed.
With respect to the window tax, though it might in some
cases have operated harshly and unequally, yet it must
1./C, iccollootgd the house. which would De most relieved

by the repeal of that tax were the higher class of ma❑-
stuns, the owners of which could well afford the burden.
He considered the financial arrangements for this year
were singularly defective. He thought Government
ought to have retained all permanent taxes until the
time arrived for them to grapple with the great question
of the continuation of the property-tax. He should
not oppose the Bill, but be objeeted to the principle of
the Bill, as founded on a fallacious system of finance.
The Earl of STRADBROKE considered the Bill was
objectionable, because it exempted all houses under 201.,
and would therefore have a tendency to encourage the
building and consequent multiplication of that class of
houses.

rVEarl
GREY protested against the declaration that the
'window tax had been repealed because it was unpopular,
and not because it was an obj ctionable tax. Now the
inquiry that took place into the operation of this tax
clearly proved that the health and comforts of the people
were seriously affected by the continuance of this tax.
'The house-tax was sound in principle, and be firmly be-
lieved that the burden would principally fall on the
ground landlord. He did not think there was any class
of property that could better bear the infliction of a tax
than house property. He quite agreed with his Noblo
Friend as to the inconvenient s.tuation in which Govern
went were placed by the vote for continuing the income-
tax for one year; but when the time arrived for consi-
dering the financial condition of the country, he fully re-
lied on the disposition of the people to do that which
would be best for the maintenance of the credit and
honour of the country.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied.
• The Duke of ARGYLL said the whole of this discus-
sion proved how difficult it was to place direct taxation
upon a just foundation, and that they must found their
finances mainly on indirect taxation. He was no Pro-
tectionist. He approved of the removal of all dunes
merely for the sake of protection; but if the finances of
the country were to be raised on the main from indirect
taxation they must proceed on the broad principle of
raising small taxes over the largest possible surface,
and levy them on those articles which were the most
extensively used. A groat deal of nonsense had been
calked about taxing food. Abstractedly speaking there
was no more injustice in such a tax than in a tax on
light or clothes, or anything else. All taxes were in
themselves as evil, and if a tax was not imposed upon
principles of protection, he knew not upon what abstract
ground some part of our taxation should nut be raised
from food. They had to raise a certain sum yearly,
and the question was how it could be raised most equi-
tably to all classes. If they wished, as was just, a
larger sum from the richer class, tax articles consumed
by them alone—tax their carriages, their horses, and their
servants • but do not let the other classes be exempt alto-
gether, but raise in small sums imposed on articles univer-
sally used a considerable amount of taxation. This broad
principle bad been very much overlooked, and it was one
of the great evils of having a weak and feeble Govern-
ment, which, incapable of acting on anyone broad prin-
ciple of finance, oould not resist the pressure against any
unpopular tax, but was obliged to substitute in its stead
some other confessedly founded on false and erroneous
principles.
The Earl of CARLISLE said, if the Noble Duke
held out to the people of this country that the abolition
of the income-tax was to be connected with any design
to re-impose duties on the importation of food, he did
not think the Noble Duke would do much to advance
the views which he advocated of abandoning protective
duties.
The Bill was then read a second time.

Tho Militia Ballot• buspension Bill, the Assessed
Tuxes CoMposition Bill, and the Public Works, Fisheries,
&c., Bill, were severally read a third time and passed.
The United Church of England and Ireland Bill, the
Churches and Chapels (Ireland) Bill, and the Eccle-
siastical Residences (Irelaud) Bill, were read a second
time.
'The Duke of ARGYLL presented petitions from Dal-
keith and Alloa, in favour of maintaining the Crystal
Palace; also several petitions against Papal aggression.
The other business on the paper was then disposed of,
and their Lordships adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS. July Is.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minute& be-
fore Four o'clock, at which time there was as unusually
full attendance of Members.

ALDERMAN SALOMANS.-SCENE IN THE

HOUSE.

Immediately afterwards the House was about to pro-
ceed with the private business on the paper, but before
the first Bill had been disposed of Mr. Alderman Salo-
mons entered and took his seat beneath the Speaker's
gallery.
The SPEAKER observing this, and it yet wanting
two or three minutes to four o'clock, said, "Members to
be sworn will please to come to the table."
Mr. Alderman SALOMONS than advanced to the table,
being introduced by Sir B. Hall and Mr. J. A. Smith,
and the clerk at the table presented the Hon. Member
with a book, which, from what next occurred, would
appear to be a copy of the New Testament.
Alderman SALOMONS, without accepting the proffered
book, said in a loud and firm voice, I demand to be
sworn upon the Old Testament.

The SPEAKER—WiII the lion.—(Oh)—Member say
why he wishes to be sworn upon the Old Testament?
Alderman Sid.omoNs—Beoauso, Sir, I declare it to
be most binding upun my conscience.
The SPEAKER—The oaths, then, may be adminis-
tered so.

The Hon. Gentleman then took without objection the
oath of allegiance and the oath of supremacy, and pro-
ceeded with the oath of abjuration, reading from the
form in his hand, until he came to the words "on the
true faith of Christian." Tbese words he refused to
read, but concluded with the words " So help me God."
The Clerk advanced towards the Speaker, and said,
the Hon. Member has not repeated., the words " on the
true faith of a Christian."

The SPEAKER —Too Hon. Member having omitted
to take the oath in the form of words prescribed, it is
my duty to inform him that he must retire below the
bar.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition side of the
House.)
Mr. Alderman SILOIIONs, still standing where he was,
read the following words from a paper :—" I have
now taken the oaths in the form and with the ceremonies
that I declare to be binding on my conscience, in ac-
cordance with scat. 1 and 2 Viet., cap. 105; I now de-
mand to subscribe the oath of abjuration, and to declare
to my property qualification." The scene was ex-
citing to the last degree some Members roaring
out at the pitch of their voices, " Withdraw, withdraw!"
while others added to the babble of sounds by calling
out for " Order, order!" or rising to go through a pan-
tomimic performance, as if they wished to address some-
thing to the Chair. The confusion, however, did not in
any way daunt the Hon. Member for Greenwich, and he
continued reading until he came to the close of the pa-
pers, when, tossing a roll of parchment across the table,
be slowly retired below the gangway, and took a seat on
the Ministerial side of the Huuse next to Sir W. Moles-
worth. The Hon. Gentleman directly afterwards rose
and said, " Sir, I beg leave to say"—but his vuice was
drowned amidst the renewed cries of "Order."

The SPEAKER then made an attempt to speak, and
something like order being at length obtained, he said
" The Honourable Member has omitted certain words
from Ow oaths, which is tantamount to nut taking the
oaths at all, and it is therefore my duty to tell him that
he must withdraw."

Alderman SALomoNs did not appear at all inclined
to comply with the request, but still maintained his seat,
Ind the consequence was another scene of noise and con-
fusion was enacted; the Members on the Opposition side
of the House roaring and shouting continuously.
The SPEAKER'S voice was again heard above the
storm, and, as far as we could catch his words, be said
the Hon. Member must be aware that the Act pre-
scribes that no Honourable Member can sit in
this House, or vote upon any question, unless
he has taken and subscribed to the oaths pre-
scribed by law. Now the last of these oaths
has not ben taken in the sense which the House under-
stands the Act—(Cheers)—and I again repeat to the
Hon. Member that it is my duty to direct him to with-
draw.—(Cheers.)
Mr. Alderman SALOMONS wont towards the bar, but
remained within it until, amidst loud cries of " Ordet,"
Mr. J. A. SMITE{ moved forward, and conducted the
Hon. Gentleman below it.

Sir B. HALL then rose and said he was requested by
the Hon. Member for Greenwich, who had just presented
himself at the table for the purpose of taking'
the oaths prescribed by the Act, and by the
forms of the House, and who was prepared
to take the oaths in a manner which in his opinion was
the most binding on his conscience to declare to the
Speaker and to the House that the Honourable Mem-
ber had withdrawn from the seat which he lately
occupied—(Laughter and ironical cheers)—in de-
ference to the high authority of the Chair.—(Cheers.)
But he was also instructed by the Honourable and
Learned Member to state—

Sir F. THESIGER rose to order.—(Cries of " Order,
order;" " Don't be put down;" and "Go on, go on.") I
apprehend, continued the Hon. and Learned Member
for Abingdon, that the worthy Alderman has not
obeyed the order of the House by withdrawing.—
(Hear, hear.) Ho is at present standing within the
House, and I consider it my duty to call attention to that
circumstance.—(Hear, hear.)
[This of course gave rise to another exhibition of feel-
ing on the part of the Opposition, and again Hon. Mem-
bers ever and anon partially jumped up and motioned the
Hon. and Learned Alderman to withdraw, or indulged
in strange gesticulations, as if they were addressing some
angry observations to the Chair. Sir William Moles-
worth and Mr. J. A. Smith advanced to the
worthy and dauntless Alderman and endeavoured to
persuade him to quit the House ; but no, he would
not do that; and at length the Sergeant-at. Arms
came to the rescue, and at his suggestion the Hon. Mem-
ber retired to one of the back seats under the Speaker's
gallery usually appropriated to Peet a.]
Sir B. HALL then went on to say that at the time he
was interrupted by the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber for Abingdon he was about to state that the
was requested by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Greenwich to declare to the House that his only object
in taking the course he bad adopted was to try the legal
question of hia right to sit fur and represent Greenwich
in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) It was, however, not his
intention or desire to take any course which might be
either displeasing or inconvenient to Members; and he
(Sir B. Hall) had, therefore, to ask a question of the
Right Lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the
absence of the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment which might facilitate the settlement of this dispute.
—(Hear, hear.) As he said before, the Hon. Member
for Greenwich was only anxious to try his right to sit
in the House, and in order that the Hon. Member might
put himself in a position to have the matter tried in one
of the legal tribunals of the realm, he bad to ask the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether,
in consequence of the proceedings which bad now taken
place, or, it that proceeding was not sufficient,
wnether, if the Hon. Member came in end took his seat
again, Government wit. prepared to institute an imme-
diate prosecution against him tor the recovery of the
penalties provided by the Act of Parliament?—(Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in the unavoidable absence of his Noble Friend, he
would state the course which be thought it would be most
convenient to the Reuse to pursue. He wa-, unite sure
that all who heard him woutd do justice to the anxiety
which the Honourable Gentleman had shown to vindi-
dictate that which in his opinion was his legal right, as
well as to the course he had taken in hi, endeavours to
do so in a manner consistent with the deference and re-
spect due to that assembly. He apprehended that two
questions arose in that House—first, the right of the
Hon. Gentleman to a seat in that House, and, secondly,
the liability to certain consequences. One must be decided
ky that House, the other by a court of law. In either
view of the case it was matter for very grave and seri-
ous deliberation, and he wait not prepared to answer the
question which his Hon. Friend put with reference to
that part of the subject. He ;thought that no instant
proceeding should take place, but that an interval should
elapse, in order to have the opportunity of consulting
the Acts of Parliament, and gravely considering what
course should be taken. He thought no proceedings
should be taken without notice, so that all persons might
be prepared to come to the discussion on which they
might feel bound to decide, not perhaps in accordance
with there own wishes, but, as they were bound to do,
by statute and constitutional law. He therefore proposed,
in order that they might consider the question in a grave
and deliberate manner, that no further proceedings
should take place at present, but that when the Noble
Lord was present on Monday they ahonld resume them.—
(Cheers.)
Sir B. HALL observed that in a matter of this im-
portance, nothing could be fairer than the proposal of his
Right Hon. Friend, and fee his Dart he had no objection
to postpone the question until Monday, or any other day
next week that might be more convenient to the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. T. DUNUOMBE wished to ask what question
they were to resume on Monday; because there were
two questions.—(A laugh) It was not an adjourned de-
bate; something must be moved.—(Laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said 4
question was put to him by the Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Marylebone, and as ho did not feel in a position
to answer it, he suggested that it should be postponed till
Monday. What he proposed now was, that nothing should
take place at present, but that the question should stand
over till Monday. Government beints in full possession
of what had taken place would come down then fully
prepared to give the Hon. Baronet for Marylebone an
answer one way or another.
Sir F. THESIGER said if he understood there was
a question tor the House to decide he should be dis-
posed to concur in the suggestion of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, but, like the Hon. Member for Finsbury, he
felt great difficulty in understanding, from the Right
Honourable Gentleman's statement, what the matter
was which was to be discussed on Monday.—(Hear'
hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the
House that there were two questions to be decided—first,
as to the seat; and eecondly, as to instituting a prose-
cution for the purpose of trying the right of the Hon.
Member for Greenwich to sit and vote in (Awl:Louse. Now,
he had great difficulty in understanding what was the
first question which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed
to take on Monday. There could be uo doubt whatever
that, according to the decision of the House, the Hun.
Member, having refused to take the oath
,of abjuration,
was totally incapable of taking his seat—(Cheers)--and,
therefore, he apprehended that no question of that de-
scription could possibly arise. (Mr. Sergeant Murphy
dissented.) Well, then, what was the question ?
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Cork
said there was a grave doubt, but he was not in Parlia-
ment in the course of last session, and therefore was not
aware that there was upon the journals a re-
solution of the House on a precisely similar
question.—(Hear, hear.) Then if their resoldtions
were
_worth anything
.no question of that description
was open to them to discuss? He hardly believed that
the House was prepared in a following session to rescind
a resolution agreed to after a long and anxious debate
on the subject—(Hear, hear)—and, accordingly, he
thought there must be some other point which
the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer proposed for consideration.— (Hear.)
Now, the House would permit him to say that he thought
they fell into a great mistake in the course they pursued
with regard to Baron Rotbschild.—(Hear, hear.) It
might be in the recollection of the House that, on the
Baron refusing to take the whole of the oath of abju-
ration, he (Sir Frederick Thesiger) rose and moved
that the Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the
Crown for a new writ for the city of London.—(Hear,
hear.) He was opposed by severed Honourable Mem-
bers, and among them by the Master of the Rolls, then
the Attorney-General, who said that under the Acts of
Parliament the penalty was not a forfeiture of the seat,
but merely a disability to sit and vote. He thought the
Right Hon. Gentleman was mistaken in that respect.
Re bad very carefully considered the subject since, and

he had come to the conclusion that the precedents ee•
tablished that the course was to issue a new writ when
a Member reused to take the oaths necessary to be
taken before he could sit in the House and vote, and
that there was no difference whatever in that respect
between the oath of allegiance and supremacy
and the
oath of abjuration, and he trusted he should be able to
satisfy the House that in either case, where a person
who was elected refused to take the oaths, his seat sees
void, and that a new writ ought to issue. If that 10,7
the question the Chancellor of the Exchequer PTV",
for their consideration on Monday he was quite prepar!'
to meet it; but if that were not the question, althougn
he could not assume there could be any other, then, es
the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork said, that t
grave doubt was hanging over the question, he should
only—
Mr. B. OSBORNE rose to order. He wished to ko°w
whether the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was strictly
in order if he did not conclude by proposing
The SPEAKER said the Hon. and Learned Dieinbe, hr
would certainly be out of order unless he concluded 'III"
a motion.—( Hear. and cheers.)
Sir F. THESIGER said he would beg leave then!
being instigated by the Hon. Member for Middlesex,t°
nsotion.
move that the Speaker be directed to issue his writ forthe
election of a Member for the borough of Greenivieht,,i,
the room of Alderman Salomons, who bad refused to te'd
the oath of adjuration in the form prescribed.--(1°
and prolonged cheers from the Opposition benches.), be
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was very much surprised at the course pursued bY t
Hon. and Learned Member.—(Cheers,
" Hear, hear.") He had reason to complain of his Inside!,
such a motion, after the suggestion had been 51°0,
agreed to for the adjournment of the question until bi°
day. He hoped he would not proceed with them otion.
Sir F. THESIGER said it was certainly not his 1/bl.O
tention to do anything more than comment on the
motion for the adjournment; but when the Hon. lgeul to
for Middlesex called him to order, he felt it necessary to
conclude with a motion which would give the Sol to
end cries o
understand precisely the course which he intends
jet
adopt on Monday when the subject again came nt)u
disc ussion. —(C heers.)
Mr. ANSTEY rose to order. The Hon. and Learigati
Gentleman was travelling into matter not before tilas
House.—(Loud cries of " Order," and confusion.)
wished to ask whether the Hon. and Learned Gentleol
was warranted by the permission of the Chairito rile 11,11
explain, and enter into a variety of matters not prop
e'
before the House?
The SPEAKER said the Hon. and Learned Bietehl
had moved that a new writ be issued for the borough. f)t,
Greenwich. Any Hon. Member having moved a 01°11°
was entitled to reply. tbe
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ndasl,o
permitted to interpose for a moment. The objee.,
l/
had was to prevent the sort of feeling which was riblea
in the House, and the course which the Hon. and Lee° t
Gentleman had taken in entering into a discussion. 0,„
the House remember the sort of angry feeling that avi
tarred during the discussion last year, and he 1191) j.
appeal to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman not but
o et°
dress the House then—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")--;n,
leave it until they bad further considered the queeti—ts
Sir F. THESIGER said he had only been anxiottA
explain that the course he had taken was almost fert;g
npon him by the interruption he had experienced &rifle
the time he was addressing the House.—(Cheers.) bof
bad not the slightest intention of departing from °L.,
he believed to be the understanding between the GP''st
'.
cellor of the Exchequer and himself. He was not '„I.
liberty to call tor an explanation of the course to be P"eo
sued on Monday, and no other opportunity being,°„Pdel
to him, he made the motion with which he con°'"A to
for the purpose of indicating the coarse he intendee,,
pursue. He begged, therefore, to withdraw them ilt;
it having accomplished the end he had in view.—(Cbee
and laughter.)
The motion was then withdrawn.
Mr. OSBORNE wished to ask the Hon. and Lee—iat
Gentleman whether he meant to make the same 111°t-
on Monday
Sir F. THESIGER—I am afraid, if I answer
IDs
question of the Hon. Gentleman, he may consider
out of order.—(Roars of laughter.)
Before the laughter had subsided the order of the dect
was read for the consideration of the Lords' swell
meats to the Killarney Junction Bill.
Mr. OSBORNE again rose and said—l cannot Ilhdenri
stand—(Loud cries of " Order," renewed laughter, °-
cheers.)
The SPEAKER said the question before the 11°°,sfee
was the consideration of the amendments made by
Lords in the Killarney Junction Railway
laughter.)
Mr. OSBORNE—I claim a hearing from the coor-irt
of the House.—(Cries of " Order! order!" " Cbs
chair!") 01‘
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Gentleman cannot sPe,
to a question that is already disposed of.—(Litughteir
Mr. OSBORNE rose again, but the cries of "Oru„e'd
being renewed more violently than before, he relit'
his seat.

PETITIONS. from
places BERESFORD presented several petitions -r
places in Essex against the navigation-laws, and Pr.st#o,
ing for an alteration of the law in regard to foreign

portations.
Sir J. WALNISLEY

or,,Lior

JIT el. presented a petition frot•
pool against the paper and newspaper stamp duties' ifice
Sir P. NUGENT presented a petition from a Ptiotl
in Ireland, praying for protection against the import°
of foreign fl,,ur.
in
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition fr°—,ips
society calling themselves the Friends of Italy, poi iv
that steps might be taken by her Majesty to prevent
continued occupation of Rome by the French troops.
IRISH BILLS.
Several private Bills having been read and agreed tri,
Mr. ROCHE wished to know whether the Goyet.vg
ment would have any objection to fix a morning olthlolt
for proceeding with several important Irish Bills 0'
were on the paper. f,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUBova
those bills would be fixed for a morning silt"
Thursday next.