The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-10 00:00:00

SATYTTIDAY P,VP,NING.

MAY 10, IASI,

Noble Lord that it was dew ihie to disperse those niene,enti
to rid them of their convict character as far as possible;
bat two obstacles' hal presented t hemselves—Parliament
had _disapproved of the plan, and neither the United
States hoe our colonies would admit them.—(clear. )
Toe question, therefore, was, what was to be done?
His firm conviction wag, the difficulty now experienced was
a difficulty of a temporary kind. If we improved our ex•
isting system, and well watched it, he believed they would
have the Australian colonies, now so averse to convicts, con-
testing with each other for these very convicts ( [leer.)
To show that the colonies were not so averse to convicts, he
would state that, in a petition from Van Diemen's Land, it
tray stated that the discontinuance of traesportation to V,II
Diemen's Land would be ruinous to the colony. In Botany
Bay a meeting had been held at which the squatters, or
sheep farmers, were all in favour of the resumption of
transportation to the colony. This was proof that the
colonies were not so averse to convicts as represented. In
Western Australia he had received a pri,ate letter describ-
ing the manlier in which the experiment of moving. convicts
to Western Australia had succeeded. The gentleman stated
that had it not been for the arrival of convicts the place in
another year would have been abandoned. So great had
been the advantage, that at Freemantle the water frontage
had been sold for a guinea a foot. This was one of the
results of sending convict labour to that portion of Australia.
And the convicts also conducted themselves in the very best
and most exemplary manner. Oue of the labours in which
these convicts were employed was in building a prison for
themselves.—(Loud laughter.) The convicts who had eb-
tained tickets of leave had conducted themselves so well as
to merit the approbation of all. He was satisfied that such
would be the benefits of the policy that a flourishing district
would appear where all before was a desert.—(Hear,
hear.) He was bound to add that lie deeply lamented
the necessity that had been imposed on her Majesty's
Government of sending so many convicts to Van
Diemen's Land. He admitted that the true policy was to
disperse the convicts as widely as possible. The measures
of her Majesty's Government had been directe i to the send-
ing as few co viets as possible to Van Diemen's Land, and
to send only those whose characters were of the beat descrip-
tion. He was happy to say there was a prospect of sending
within the next six months only half the usual number to
that c' bony. He was bound, however, 0 express his strong
opinion that the colony hai 1;0 right to expect the discon-
tinuance -f sending convicts there until it could be done
without inconvenience to the mother country. He consi-
dered that the convict system had been the making of that
and the Australian colonies. It was owin sto the convict
system that the colonies possessed roads that could not be
surpassed in England. He considered that Van Diemen's
Land had experienced all the advantages of the penal sys-
tem ; that colony was, therefore, not entitled to turn round
and say the system should be discontinued as soon as it
suited the colonists to say so. The colony had no right to
take such a position. While the interests of Van Diemen's
Land should not be neglected, Government at the same time
would take care that the interests of the mother country
were also protected.
The Bishop of SALISBURY bore testimony to the ge-
neral efficiency of the present convict system. Portland was
in his idocese; there were I,SOO convicts there, many of
whom had been convicted of grave offences—and it was im-
possible to see this large number eng ,ged in works of util ty
without indulging in hopes of their ultimate reformation.
He, however, should be deceiving their Lordships if he said
he entertained any sanguine hopes of the reformation of cri-
minals of mature years. He could well believe that the in-
stitution at Portland might effect good, but he doubted in
cases where the punishment bad not been sufficient in the
first establishment, whether the system at Portland was
eufficiently penal reform offenders. If the present system
could be etretrually carried out it would prove as efficacious
as any other; but then to put the system thoroughly into
practice was attended wi h immense difficulty.
The Bishop of OXFORD said that much that the Noble
Lord had said that eight had given him pain. The paramount
evil of transportation was, that it attempted to plant new na-
tions with the basest of mankind. He regretted the Noble
Earl (Earl Grey) had lent tue weight of his name to sanction
this—the master-evi of the present system of convict trans-
plantation. Moral pollution was almost a necessary conse-
quence of the presence of convicts in new coloeies. Critni-
nals should not be placed in circumstances under which, if
they proved useful servants, almost any amount of irregu-
larity and misconduct was tolerated. To create a penal
colony was a groat sin in a civilized and enlightened country.
The colonies bad a right to object to the preseit system.
To plant colonies of criminal men was the seed of evil
in the earth, and what no Christian country was justified
in doing.
Lord MONTEAGLE was prepared to say that upon
reason and from experience, and looking at the thing as a
whole, the present system of diffusing convicts throughout
the world, if properly conducted, was benefiting both the
home country and our colonies. There was an overloaded
labour market at home. The removing these criminals re-
lieved the honest and industrious at home. There was a
deficiency of labour in the colonies, and supplying that waist
was a benefit to the colonies. It was said that if convicts
were sent abroad, there was a chauce of their meeting their
old associates, but if they were kept at hcme there was a
certainty of meeting them. Abroad there were nu-
merous instances of the reformation and subsequent pros-
perity of convicts. The principle of sending convicts abroad
was a recognised evil, but it was an inevitable evil. It was
impossible to carry on the administration of criminal Justice
without the power of expatriation in some form or other.
Much of the evil that had arisen on this subject had been
caused by the interineddling of Parliament. He wished
to know whether the hulk system was about to be re-
newed ?

The Duke of ARGYLE said that the fact, if fact it were,
that the system was inevitable, was a very inconclusive argu-
ment. It was upon a balance of the evils and inconveniences
that this question must be adjusted. The colonists them-
selves were the best judges of their material and moral inte-
rests, and they had unanim may repudiated this system.
Atter a few word, from Lord WODEEIOUSE,
Earl GREY said, in answer to a question from the Noble
Lord (Monteagle), that the system cf the hulks had never
been discontinued, although certainly it was very desirable
to get rid of the system. A prison was now building in
Bermuda, and arrangements were being made in this country
to get rid of the convicts. The ay stem (1 associated labour
would then be performed in those instead of in the hulks.
Until those prisons were prepared it was necessary that con-
victs should go to the hulks. It was sill necessary to a cer-
tain extent to use the hulks, but as soon as the bulks wera
prepared they would pass ttia, part of their punishment on
shore. The question was one of comparison—the compara-
tive am,,unt of moral evil by one system or the other.
The discussion then terminated, and their Lordships
adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Moy 9.
The SPEAKER took the Ceair at Four o'clock.
The Lardy' am:n.droents to the Scarborough Gas Bill
were considered and agreed to
THIRD READINGS.
The following Bills were read a •third time and passed:
Aberdeen Public Records.
Dundee and Arbroath Railway.
Hud&rsfield and N w Hey,,Distriet Turnpike Road.
St. Andrews' Railway.
PETITIONS.
Mr. I3ERNAL presented a petition from the hotel ard
tavern-kee#Ers of Rechesttr and other plan.' in Keht,
complaining of the bilietieg system and of the duct' on
servants.
Mr. DUNCAN presented three petitions from places
in Scotland against Papal aggmfsion.
'Mr. PIGOTT presented a petition to the cone curet
from Readiz,g.
Lad CHARLES MANNERS presumed three peti-
tions from Leicestershire praying fur the adoption of
more stringent measures to pr.-veut Papal aggression.
Lord DUI )LEY STUAR r presented a petition from
the Woman Catholics ot Marylebone against the Ecclesi-
astical Titles Bill.
Major BERESFORD presented a petition from a
place in Essex against Papal egression.
.Sir R H. INGLIS presented a petition, from Wake-
field, in favour of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill; sho a
petition, from George John Hartley, sen., describing
himself as a member of the Roman Catholic Church,
and sole legal personal repre.,,entalive of two ladies
therein named, and now deceased (formerly nuns in a
foreign convent, subsequently transferred to England),
and complaining that the property of the said ladies,
though transferred to the prioress to be managed for the
beuelit of the said ladies, has been treated as the abso-
lute property of the said cocvent ; and praying the
douse to inquire into' tile constitution of convents, cud
particularly into the circumistancee complained ut by the
petitioner.
Mr. BAIRD presented a petition from Linlithgow
against Lent Melond's Education Bill for Scotland.
Ntr, LusalNGrox preeentel a petition from the
cotnehouse-keepers of Westelinster, praying fur the re-
peal of the taxes on knowledge.
Lord MELGUND presented several petitions from
pieces in Sc itland against Papal aggression.
Mr. DEEDES presented a petition from 10,099 of the
inhabitants ot Kent, praying for the adoption of more
stringent measures for the future prevention of Papal
aggreosion.
Mt% B. DENISON preiented petitions from the West
Rifting to the same effect. •
Mr. GOULD • pres,,nted a petition praying for an
extension of the law of mortmain.
Mr. WALTER presented petitions from Nottingham
and other places against Papal aggression.
Lord ARUNDEL and SURREY presented several
petitions against the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Alderman HUMPHERY presented a petition from
Sou'hwark against Pupal aggression.
Me. NAPNR presented a petition from a place in
Ireland to the same effect.
Mr. COBDEN presented a petition from Falkirk.
praying for an inquiry into the bribery practices which
prevailed at the last election; also a petithin from Roman
Catholics in Huddersfield, against the Religious Houses
Bill.

Mr. MILES presented several petitions from Somer-
set against P4pal aggression.
Mr. ALEX. flikS IIE presented a petition from Glas-
gow to the sane effect.
Mr. SCULLY presented a pet itioa from Tipperary
against Ectriesiaitical TitleS Bilk
Lord J, RUSSELL preseuted a petition from the mer-
chisels, baukers and others or the city of London, in
fisvour of ;he Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Mr. ELLIOT presen ei a petition from Harwich in
favor of Lord Meigund's Bill.
Mr. CO ,'AN preseutei a petition from Edinburgh
iu tavour of tno Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, and praying
that Tio aineniment might be introduced to impair its
effic;ency.

Colonel THOMPSON presented a petition from Brad-
f .rd, Y Aral-lire, in savour of a mere stringent Bill agsiust
Papal a4g cession.

Str b. HALL presented several peti=ions from Mary
lfbone prs)ing for the repeal of the taxes on know-
leqe; also a petition in favour of the Ecclesiastical Talus
Bill.

Mr. Alderman SIDNEY presented a petition from
Stafford praying for a more stringent measure against
Papal uggression.
DEATHS IN IRISH WORKHOUSES.
Mr. POULETT beltOPE ask, d the Secretary for
Ireland, whether any coroner's inquest had yet been
held upon the body of any ono of the paupers that.had
died within any of the workhouses of Ireland, many of
whom, as appeared by the reports of inspectors, dim
within a few minutes of their admission?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE leplietl in the affirmative.
EVACUATION OF THE DANUBIAN PEINCI-
PALInEs.
Mr. URQUHART asked the Noble Secretary for
Foreign Affairs, to state the cause of the delay which

; tad taken place in regard to the arsenal-on of the
DA,uhiin pnorinees ; also, whrthtr it was Vue that'a
Coo erende which hid been hel t at C,,nste, iinopla by
e 1.,
th- ministers o- Englund and Fi toe c m the
dewsion to renew the confinement of the Hu! prig) re-
fugPes ?
Lord PALMERSTON said the last accounts which he
reopiv, d were cot t tined in a dispatch, dated the 17th of
April, which st,its-rl that certain troops had already
began t ) march, and it was cxpectd in about a fortnight
of that time th..t, the greater part, but not the whole, of
the Russian troops would have evacuated at least the
province of Wallachia. He was also in-
formed that the Turkish troops were evacuat-
ing the province. With regard to any fresh
emergencies arising, it must be assumed that fresh
arrangements would be made, but he was not at
present aware of any existing communications between
the two Governments bearing on that point. In reler-
enee to the second question, he was sorry to say that as
yet the endeavours of the Governments of England and
France to obtain the lineration of the remaining Hunga-
rian refugees had not been sueceistul.
OCCUPATION OF ROME BY FRANCE.
Mr, T. DUNCOMBE asked the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affsirs, whether her Majesty's Government
concurred in the prolonged occupation of Rome by the
Fr, nob army, and if he could inform the House when those
troops ore likely to he withdrawn; also, whether it was
the opinion of the Noble Lord that the result of this
...vu,4violl had been to eAablish a good government for
Rome?

Lord PALMERSTON sail the occupation of Rome
wAs a measure undertaken by France on their own
discretion and judgment ; the British i3overn-
ment was no party to it. France had exer
cised her own rights in regard to it, and it had not
teen thought n,cessary to obtain the. previous concur-
rence of the British Government. With regard to the
result of the occupation, he was sorry to say that he
c uld not unawer the 1-1,,n. Nlember's queation in the
affirmative. It was well known, not through
channels. but to all persona who had the slightest know-
ledge of the city, that ih:.int,rnal condition of Rtine was
an) thing but satisfactory. With regard to the pro-
i,,notion of the occuoati..n, there had been friendly com-
multi, ati-na with the Fr.tich Government on the sub-
ject, and n irher of the two were baud to the fact that
th, retreat of the French Government would be fol-
!tort d by the occupation of the city by others, and there-
fore it had been thought best to leave to the French
Government itself to decide when that occup4tion would
best be dialynsed with.

CHANCERY REFORM.
In answer ►o a qw-Atiou iron, Mr. MUNTZ,
L.,1-cl J. RUS:,ELL said, that the Lord Chanceßur
bad lately had this tubjt,ct under his consuiteration, and
ruf asure would very soon be introduced by the Govern-
meet.

IRISH BUSINESS.
In an5,,,,,,r to r giresrion from Air. REYNOLDS,
Lord J. RUSSELL .aid that he tied no objection to
saying that he would not, attempt to briug forward
Fish Bus o which opposition was iuttlich.d after 12
o'clock at night.

S EWERS.
Mr. FITZROY spin complained of the proceedings
of the Comati,*ioners of Sewers in lev)ing II rate tipoi
the roetronedia of 61. in the p ,und. and asked the &;;h!
Hon. the Secretary of Sate IT the Howe D,p,:rtwent
when it was intended to bring in a Bill to reform that
Board.

Sir GEORGE GREY said the preaent Commis-
sion awed unfit rrh authority of Parliament. Ample
not+ca would be given of the introduction of the Bill to
which the Hon. Gentl.rn,n r4-rred.
INTRA NIURA L BURIALS.

In reply to Sir DE LACY EVAN. 4,
Sir G. GREY :gated that the Board of Health,
having failed to obtain poAlession of certain m
grlveyardt by means of amicable negoiiaticm,
histi given notice of their intention to take them (with a
view to their being closed) upon a valuation, to be set-
tled by arbitration.
In reply to Mr. T. MINCOMBE
Sir GEORGE GREY further stared that in a short
time a report of the preliminary proceedings of the Board
w,iuld be laid bef ire the
KENSINGTON GARDENS.
Mr. HUME ammui,ced his intention to bring the
subject or opening these gardens to horsemen before the
liousi on M,inclay, r...nd he hoped, therefore, the final
order fir tire opening would be del eyed till his motion
had btert dispoi,ed of.

Sir G. GREY slid the prdens were not under hi 6
control, but t wou!d invntiott the Hon. Meniher's
ref:o,qt to nis Noble Friend at the beau of the Woods
and Forests.

N A.VIG ATION-LA WS.
Mr. RICARDO d to put .4 qaestion to the Hon.
M(-trubtr fir Stamford, reia,,ive to an onaervation that fed
'tom hiun the oilier night. The Hon. Geod.-4114n then
intimated this it was his inteetion on a future day to
make a motion on the subj,ct of the rural of the navi-
gation-laws, and he should be glad to know when twit
motion was likely to c..tme on.
Mr. BERRIES' said it not his intention •: to
submit any motion on that subject, but simply
to call attention to a petition which he had pniterced
complaining of ths re,eal, and he bud strang-td with
the President of the Bad of Trade to give timpe notice
eiben he should urine the matter f trward.
INCOME-TAX.
On the motion for the consideration of this Bill as
amended.
The CHANCELLOR of the EM:HEQUER rose to
make a statun'-nt relative to a new clause which he
wished to introduce into the Bill. Ile proposed to bring
up a clause to enable persttus oc..upyirtg. ltd for the
purl, sea of tiosbantiry, aed principulty otnaAtiog their
lieility:ott from it, to have t,:e right of a. peal agairn.t
the pre s-itt twes,tnetit her. Vt..%) COW./ prove har, their
pruti:s had fallen Short of that tOtieSitilli,nt, aid to cave All
the 131,,tie) s which the) had overpliti returned to them,
doing this he thou.:ht he was only se; ine iii accord-
at...a. with the general wish of me H.tipte.—(tlear.)
ion, d, on communication wish the t!flie•rs of the I, hnd
Revenue, that he could give some to th se c asses
without dep.irti:Jg from the genera principle of
Bill —(lli.ar.) Hard-h tired as nor t.f the
Eetdiequer ors% ckoisid,red, or indewd was courpeleti
be, he hoped Ow, on the p,t'SWiit occasion they wAild to
of opinion that he hail gi.eu due consideration to wh rt
he must fairly admit well deserved the attention of ake
Hous,—the cAnpl,iitts of tenant-tanners.—(Hear from
the Oppiettott b.. itches:)
Colonel SIBTHORY remarked that thsy had been
ttld oft tii;4ll authority to
(Great Laughttr.) lie iouid ILL say teat he had ever
tuner) c-ilfilom.,e in any Govertitm-tot, hu. id HA
on this occasion aJcinpt to que.itiou tiie goAl f,drn of
the Charcellor of the Exelnqu.:r in preposiug those
umendmests.
Mr. DISRAELI thought that gr, at graiturie was due
to thts Gallant Ottic:r for the abiLty anti perveraice x, h
which h had alway 4 pursued this eject, in which at lest
he had been seccessful. 110 also complimerved the Chat
eellor of the Excio (per lor the go ,d sense which he hA
shown in in r- us yidding.
Mr. tle*LIN al.o tiegp4l to thank the Government
for the great favt,ur which iht3 had shown to the agri-
culrurists.
Mr. BIliG HT was rather aitmished at the facility
with which he Rii.ht Hon. Gentleman had wrought him.
self up to brig in the present clause. He compiaittel
that there an int•quai,y in the method ot resins
farmers, and those eng,ged in trade; and wht n this
cl-ruse cattle utetar discussion ha should bring the two-
ject mote itetnstliately under the at:errion ot the House.
Mr. cinusTuF HER said the Honourable Member
who spoke last was quite wrung iu supposing that
tenant.fartm:rr were n,ver surcharge:l, for he knew of
innumerable instances where that bad been the care.
Mr. E. DENISON thought this clause was perfect,
for inasmuch as ein..e the a:iange went of the old law
was csiablistod a consider able change hA taken place
in toe aspect. ot affairs. and that, too, entirely owing to
the Jewels:ohm , f th! [Luse.
Sir J. TROLLOPE also bore testimony to the fact
that tenant-farmers weee fieq.ietatly surcharged.
Mr. BOOKER said, surcharging was qiure common
in the part of the country that te came from. In-
stances were very rare now where a capi at ot 81. an acre
was employed in the cultivation of laud, and yet under
the „Id law th',4t was the !:tiling figure of the as.easmetit.
Mr. HENLEY said the farmers were not only aura
charg, d on &menu!. B. hut on Schedule D also.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY complained that it very fre-
qnently happened that the tax payer had to make good
the ch-tateivions of the collector.
The clause was thin passed through the various
stages, and ord Tud to he added to the Bill.
Colonel SIB alma, moved the following provisos
to clause l, namely—Provided always that nothing in
this Act contained shall Luitturise the c,noinuance 0: tine
rats anti duties granted heretwore under Schedule B
of the first recited Act, as regards tenantarmers
or occupiers of the soil in theist Britaie,. with t

,he gen, rat power of appeal; provided also that
nothing in this Act contained shall authorise the con-
tinuance of so touch of the rates and dunes granted
heretofore tteder Schedule E of the said first recited Act
as relates to the pay at:d allowances of the officers in her
Meejetst t 'es unary or navy.
the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed
the amendment' and It wax tint persevere o to.
Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY called the attention,
of the. House to the necessity of providing some effec-
tual custody of papers relating to the property-tax re-
turn, and seated in many parts of the eouilay those
returns heed been sAti for waste pap".
The CHANCELLOR :I the EXCHEQUER aid
there was no means for introducing a claus,, to 8
°
plish the object which the Honourable Baronet hesedT;
view, as the custody of the vipers was alteti,er a mar.
ter of discretionary instrucn .f.r,:ra the ou Treasury, It
was amistake to suppose m y ofay
the returns had
been sold for vvs.,:e paper.
Mr. REYNOLDS called attention to the Stamp D ie.
Assimilation Bill, which wa4 for extending eut
tax e Irelaucl. end he Wanted to know ill hincombe:
d for one or tbs., years.
~t then a
was to be prolong,
Tbe CIIANCELLOR of the Eit):HI4UER said it
WA'S only to eoutiiiue for one year. but Ireland had 11.0
cathe to complain, for hitherto it had been exempted
from the ineotn•-tex„
• ,•R ,
Mr. LTAT AN told the Government that if they con-
templated extending the income-tax to Ireland they
would only be able to do it at the point of the bayonet.
They might as well attempt, to enforce it upon Siberia
us upon Ireland.—(M, oh!)
The Bill was then considered and agreed to, and or-
dered to be read a third time on Monday.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL.
On the motion for eoing into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. REYNOLDS presented a petition from Dublin
tegainst it, which he moved should be read fre..m the
table, and it N. as accordingly done.
Mr. .ciISRAF.,LI presented several petitions from
pieces in Buckinghamshire against Papal aggression. '
QRATTAN presented a petition moot the MIL

Mr. SADLEIR seconded the resolutions. 11r•
Sir G. GREY said that the Hon. Gentleman (ur•00
quhart) had an opportunity of raising his opposition on ebb
Bolt. reading; but such a course of action did not suit
,"to
Hon. Gentleman, ecause he saw that his motion would
then of no avail, as he could net effect his object by w 4
gether getting rid of this Bill, and thus totally undoing °hit
had been before done by that House. When such &al..
appeared to hint to be a failure, he then turned his attention
:
to the plan of proposing a vote of censure on the Gore%
merit, whi• h he telt assured would be of no avail, becausee'l
did not think that the House would be so far stultify its;
as to rescind the vote before recorded. The attack of •
Hon. Gentleman on the First Lord of the Treasury (Lorki
Rus,ell) would prove of no consequence, because by 1,
anxiety for a vote of censure on the Government, he felt 1113;,
mired that the point of his attack was directed against
Noble Friend (Lord Pahnersten), rather than against.s%
other member of the Government ; arid he felt assured th;
the Ho se coincided with him in that opinion, on thee;
grounds he cautioned the House against following his 01)./!'et
arid to avoid being subject to the character of stultifylne
themselves by rescinding their former vote to
„eta'
vrur of the second reading. In a word, he we •
!leered that the H'rnourable Gentleman wished that
the Pope of Rome should have all authority to divide
this country, as it suited his purpose, without the sanctiot!
of Parliament or the country.—( Hear, hear.) He sboilla,
next refer to Ireland, and in doing so he considered that
the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church in that count/
hail a just right and claim to their ecclesiastical titles, Par:
titularly when the use of those titles was not in any way "
violation of the Ise; and he should add that those title:
were in existence, not only before the present Governmen
came into power, but even before the Emancipation Act eres
pas,ed, home the Maynooth grant was sanctioned, and he'
fore the Re orm Act was thought of. He did not see aril
grounds for the Hon. Gentleman's :amendment, because he
considered that it was the constitution.il right of this country
to prevent, by every possible means, the interference of*
foreign potentate. He, therefore, asked the House to go
into Committee at once, and not to stultify themselves by ree
seindiire t heir former vote on that occasion.—(Hear.)
Mr. FREeIIFIELD considered that the Hon. Gentleman':
amendment was altogether useless, and that it would be
be.ter they had long since gone into Committee, as much
goed would he effected by such a ceurse, rather than delay
the time of the House in a u,eles,. dkussion.
Lord J. MAN.-. ERS considered hat the House should
look ter the merit of the n solution, for be telt assured that it
was pi fleetly just, and as evident as that two and two make
four, for he well r new that the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell)
was always willing to promote the perdition of the Church
of England, while at the same time he was encouraging the
growth of Popery; arid be should, moreover, say that the
puny ens ineignificant measure would be of no avail against
the niachimoiens of the Church of Rome, for it would be
wholly inoperative, ane would not be at all acre upon, even
though it became the law of the land. He considered that
the Bill of the Noble Lord would perfectly justify the House
ter vote in favour of the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Stafford (Mr. Urquhart). It might be borne in mind by the
House that a few days before the Easter recess he had asked
the Noble Lora if he would retract or modify the letter of
Earl Grey, by which it was shown that the Pope of Rome
had a certain authority over the colonies; but he was an-
swered that n mechtivation eould be made. What concha-
biome then, could the House arid the country legitimately
crime to hr. in this metre of action adopted on the part of the
Give 'mew ? lie knew but of two—either that they are
perercu, rug Dr. Wiseman, or that they are betraying and
abandoning the rights of the Crown and those Bub•
ject to her 111 ejesty's tide at the antipodes.—k Cheers.)
Let him ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, •
or, rather, let him remind him, how he had acted as re-
ga.ded the English episcopate. When he came into office
he admitted that the number of bishops connected with the
Engliett Church was miserably defective, and even specified
the number of additional ones he was to create. If, then,
that speech had been followed up, as it ought to have been,
there could be no doubt. that many of she great towns
throughout the country would have been formed into twee,
arid placed under the superintendence of prelates of the
Church of England, and that they would not have l iver-
pool, Nottingham. and Birmingham placed, as they were
now, under prelates appointed by the Pope.—(Loud cheer::)
Then, as to another act of unfairness on the part of the
Noble Lord, towards the Euglish Church. Before the ag-
gressiun took place, nego•iations were pending between
the Government of the Noble ord and the vs esleyan body
lereeare-
in respect of the educational system of the latter, which
stoern tonetglioetmiattiohnesir
mabinleatceldaimins.GovAetriTheentsacmeneceddiumge
pending between the Government of the Noble Lord
and the English Roman Catholics on much the same sub-
ject, and these also had been conceoed, and that subse-
quent to the aggression. Then, with respect to the Eng.
huh Episcopal Church, negotiations had also been pending,
but although that body had in that House submitted their
claims in such a manner that no Member of it could deny the
justice and the reasonablenese of it, yet those claims had met
with determined and stern opposition by the Government of
the Noble Lord, and v ere still denied them. - (Cries of
" Hear, hear.") As to the motion itself, he thought
the Honeurable Gentle man who proposed it bad a perfect
ight to assume that the Pope would meet with but little
discouragement, if be did not actually meet with support,
from the Noble Lord and his Government in any aggres-
sion he might make on this country; for he believed that it
the people of England and the Sovereign of England had
not telt aggrieve d, and expressed their opinions of the course
pursued by the Pope in a manner not to be nri,taken, they
woul I have heard but little righteous indignation expressed
on the part of the Government.— ( Hear, hear.) As to the
measure proposed by the Noble Lord to meet that aggression,
he did not intend to go into detail respecting it, for the
House could not have forgotten what had taken place, or the
course of its progre,s through the House, from the firs' night
it was introduced. What they bad to consider was simply
was the, motion of the Hon. Membor for Stafford true,
or was it not? (Hear, hear.) Ifit was true, vote for it; if
it was not, reject it. He believed it to assert a truth, and
he would vote for it—( Hear, hear)—because be thought it of
importance that they should place on the journals of the
House a condemnation of such a course of conduct as the
Government of the Noble Lord Lail pursue in order that
they miget hold up their conduct as a beacon to warn others
who might follow them from following a similar course.
No Hon. Member seeming ieclitied to address the HOLISeI
long pause took place, when strangers were ordered to it&
draw, in order that the House might divide cn the motion,
upon which
Mr. SADLEIR rose to support the motion. The Right
Hen. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department
seemed to take it tor granted that any one who might
support the motion did so as a censure upon the Go-
vernment, for their conduct towards the Roman Ca-
thelics. Now he for one did not support the motion
on any such grounds. He. had always admitted and
supported the sound policy of the Noble Lord in
making the concessions to the R man Catholics he
had on several occasions dime, and concurred iu the declara-
tions he had frequently made respecting the great value of a
Roman Catholic hierarchy iu Ireland, fur it was impossible for
any Rotiran Catholic not to feel a desire to see the Church in
this country having the advantage of such a government.
It was possible that they might have a bad disposed man
placed in the Papal chair, and, he asked, could they have a
greater security against any act of aggression he might make
upon this country, than the establishment of a hierarchy,
who could reject the bulls if they considered them wrong?
As to vicars-apostolic, they were the mere nominees of the
Pope. The second order of clergy were fully at their mercy
-• there was to appear from them, and that was the reason
why they wanted a hierarchy and a regular parochial clergy
establishment. Besides the establishment of vicars-apostolic
was merely a temporary arrangement, for when the body of
Roman Catholics became numerous and prosperous in any
country or district, it was always the rule to establish
amongst them a regular hierarchy. A Papal bull could
have no effect in this country until it was sanctioned by such
hierarchy, who might reject it if they saw fit, and that had
been done already by the Roman Catholic hierarchy of
Ireland. They were told this motion would delay the pro•
gress of the Bill, but that objection would have but little
weight with him, for be viewed the measure both in the
state it was introduced and the meagre form to which it had
been reduced, as an effort to revive that penal and perste
cuting legislation which was so rife in the reign of Anne.
—(tiont hoar.) lie know Government would NY thi4

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