The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-15 00:00:00

the ---
Cognizance of the authorities, under the
cslebrated ceneordat entered into with Francis I.
• The t)
`"°ltlati Catholics knew not the Pope in a temporal
Dint of .
, View, he was looked upon only as a spiritual
TZeernigtl, and as such submitted to. (Hear.)
_ . Catholics as such did not recognize the Pope iu his ca-
...., ;41.eriittyuaolf a temporal sovereign. Tney regarded him as the
head of their Church. He had temporal authority
i i
~, !!‘luiEngland; Dr. Doyle gave evidence to that effect, and Dr.
e, Curtis, at the time Archbishop of Armagh, in his evidence,
stated that he had no other authority than spiritual exercised
s, .., .... 'within the
1 , it we. , e canons of the Church. Many Catholics thought
se ' esitt`i'l'd have been better if the Popes had never interfered
se temporal authority. It was true that at one period of
•'
exercise
of this country some of the Popes attempted to
le ... en"ci e temporal authority for their own aggrandiser„eent.—
r! iii ..„ :-..., hear.) Such an individual was Alexander 1I , who
~,.., , wag a disgrace to the Popedom. It was also to be observed
.
i' eget out of 260 Popes who had presided at Rome, not more
teen t
e ,teeir twenty or thirty had failed to act up to the principles of
• . their religion. Gregory VII. and Innocent 111. had used
I‘, '• . 8• • • .tt;_ mrstual authority for their own aggrandisement and
et.' h'e!',of their families, and disgraced the cloth they wore;
iirt,,, ,LL, it could not be denied that the great part of them
eBPrute from
• 1 pen i . Pie, and that
la * I tit/ to the people, and. acted with and for the
they exercised their spiritual autho-
„, : oirie put an end to the vices of the time, in oppo•
le ' ' .. , 'II to despotism, and in support of the people. He con-
. 14,44 e,necurred with what had been said by the Noble Lord the
se s. •. 107411104 e ry for Foreign Affairs, that the Pope of Rome shouldh
eoer
, Independent Prince. There was no religion of t e
tof Rollie and the Church of Rome. Ile repudiated
a,,,,,u_ch a notion; the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church
,i" the same everywhere. The question of a divided alle-
;fiance was raised when the question of Catholic emaneipa-
-4,11 was discussed, but the Catholics recognised the Pope
01,,Z as the spir Irelandad of their Church. The Catholics
• l'ugland and did no more than the two thousand
e ere, to .
teece en, with the Bishop of Exeter at their head, when
0.. asserted that the Queen had not supremacy in the
h49inirch of England in matters ecclesiastical. Catholics
' - dive, ancaber doctrine, that the hierarchy was a
e:Thee inatitution, and in its normal and ordinary
t -ution, the bishops must have territorial titles in order
loee°e,:leercise episcopal jurisdiction. The vicars-apostolic
ne
fretut a temporary substitution. The Bishop of Rome,
, with the system of vicars-apostolic, is the Bishop
ea
h. • England with the vicars-apostolic acting under, him
e s
se is substitute. Under the vicars-apostolic the country
• . tie, Parcelled out into districts; the only difference be-
are' them and bishops with local titles is, that the former
had delegates of the Pope. He might be asked why they
ale net sought an hierarchy before. The Catholics had been
a, ii/s anxious for the restoration of the hierarchy, as an
purl ication had been made to Queen Elizabeth for that
~
~e°rar'eil which was postponed, as it was though she would
it, e°erne to the Roman Catholic Church ; but afterwards, in
, one hundred priests were drawn and quartered
117 i. . • Ifa4 "ercising their ministry. That was not a time to ask
koot hierarchy In the reign of James the First, after the
ee.:t. tithing to
With which the Catholics as a body had
le • to do, the prejudice was too great to think of getting
I b li: 4 previ„? t,he reign of Charles the Sec.ond the same prejudice
eleee tea"'tele arising from the conspiracy of Titus Oates.
41/ ; t, .4krileS 11. came to the throne, and toleration of
,al/ ',•
was permitted, an application was made to him
'4l, , ' eat the' establishment of an hierarchy. He, although a
ee-;"°lic, inquired what was the difference between the two
•• nee tents, and it was from the document presented to that
' le Coign in explanation that he (Mr. Fagan) himself
' eeee-"ed• what the difference was. The Catholics were not
•••.ICguised until the reign of George 111. The Catholics
hot that time were few, and did not require it,
~,,, .there • numbers were increased by the immi-
. ~ eeetion
sseth,,, of
.the Irish. The case was now different, for the
'' , entire"es in London were a greater number than the
population of Rome. The Hon. Gentleman then
.quoted,, a Passage from Mr. Macaulay, which stated the revo-
, 0-'3ll in the nineteenth century, which put an end to the
• , oo vernnient of one nation ever another, and that which put
„te
_end to the property of man in man, was effected through
• o'afe Catholic religion. The promulgation of the sovereignty
nee the People was first promulgated by the Jesuits, and that
' = ,ee the divine rights of kings by Protestants. The provisions
• t , .• ~ , LPli3 Bill were extended to Ireland because the Government
e''s ~. -`"‘ offence that the Synod of Thurles had condemned
ler the .
tik dille : a Lull colleges. He had defended the colleges more than
`calf anoY man its Ireland, but the bishops had a right to express
•,eateiie -id °Pinion upon them as the guardians of religion, and
lee. .- ~ eeation Willi nothing without reliion, and had a right to
ei metierthem e - e • nandmorals." The Bill
• e. e " eangerous to fait
• te ."aa to
'.,a t, Paralyse the Episcopal,, and would make every act of
-eteeneTehoP With a territorial title invalid ; the consequence
e 41•1, be that such a bishop ordaining a priest the ordination
j'sw would be invalid, and marriages solemnized by bins
~B°_, would be invalid. All such priests by law were lay-
. e"ete and therefore if the constituencies in Ireland returned
ene
• , hundred and five priests the Noble Lord would not
e oh
to their taking their seats in the House. Ile warned
the Government against endangering the 600,0001. paid to
~.. , . foe clergy of the minority of the people of Ireland, and lie
• ' . ' Cassell); ite his duty also to state to the Noble Lord (Lord J.
them
and to his Government, that though he voted with
. i ' 00;7: On last evening under the influence of conscientious
' ear-e" yet a question might arise which would neces-
_ "Y induce him and many other Irish Members to oppose,
. . ;Ind thereby to jeopardise the present Government.—(Hear,
' = Light, • -He admitted that he .might have, by his vote of last
,• • L!ght, run the Fisk of losing his popularity, yet, however '
e , hetg,hlY he estimated the goodwill of the people of Ireland,
9 could not for any consideration vote contrary to his con-
'
viet'o
. , o• As a friend of the Noble Lord and of his Govern-
i e. • n'w ent, he earnestly implored him to give up a measure that
a ould entail on his former generous and heroic achievements
thiTh3Be t infelicitous and disagreeable character; but should
ilettNiotlaet Lhored psevere, he was eterminedto vote against any
~, ~....
ramee .ur_e
_ae. proposed by him or any member of his Govern•
(Hear, helm
'''): "3"tverel Hon. Members rose together, but
The SPEAKER called on
Mr' l' •
PEEDe (Leominster) who entirely concurred in seve-
ral sentiments expressed more than once in that discussion,
tiatnelY, that it would be better to wait till the Noble Lord
(Lord John Russell) had developed the healing and details
tf., lily measure. Such a line of procedure he believed would
b
w carried on with great advantage, for then the House
' r ould be able to judge of the merits or demerits of the Bill
rr Which he (Lord John Russell) had moved for leave to
• 'lltreduce. With the permission of the House, he would
make a few remarks, though by those remarks he did not
Besse to establish his conduct with regard to the mea-
'''
ruts in its future discussion through the House. Ile should,
),
s. °"rever say that there were, in his opinion, some matters
''• . ''
ecenected with the subject, as it appeared at present, which ...
1 ' • were totally irrelevant to the manner in which the Bill
'.'s ' ' 4lloald be framed.—(Cries of "Hear,hear.") He evidently
':l,e' that that Bill of the Noble Lord's (Lord John Russell)
lld not satisfy either aide of the House; for there were
several Ilon. Gentlemen on the opposite side who considered
unit it went beyond what was necessary for the present emer-
nee,Y, while ethers on his side of the House considered that
4h,..‘. nOt by any means come up to their expectatiops cr
..,' Leen' wishes. 'Many Hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House
.I,;te considered that the language used by the Noble Lord in
~ . • 's introductory preface of the measure to be altogether at
variance with •the spirit of his letter to the Bishop of Dur-
at°, and they therefore thanked him for the letter, but were
hey at all satisfied. with his speech on the introduction of
' . titeßill• He was not surprised that many Honourable Gen-
. C." 1; who advocated this measure as an attack on the
eMistitution, a violation of the prerogative, and an insult
• '',!! the bishops of the Established Church, should have felt
Ise, e,rsiderable disappointment that a measure, which engaged
'
, '"e attention of Government and the country, should be
red
. 'lced to the narrow limits of only extending the 28th
el "ellen
t ''' that , of the Catholic Relief Bill of 1829. He considered
'.e
than
vtiltevias their duty as legislators to do something more
fly wad y motel
nowwith tot rested the Government decide the
.' Peevee ue question implied in the Bill was whether any
metituntion had been given by the Court of Rome to the
hasitetttio(ms and rights of this country ? And he had no
flecte -eon in asserting that such was the case when be_leei
' he did e'en, the arrogance of the recent pastoral letter. Y.
ena ie" think that there was any
ittenes—ell,te, and even though he should, for argu-
necessity for legislative
' * the liaae, admit that there was, he doubted whether
..e,' - woopftleasure of the • Noble Lord (Lord John Russell)
Ile- " maintain inviolate the sanctity of religious liberty.
to i,rsidered that there •was no great value or importance
th„ attached to the system of attacking the Roman Ca-
, ' , this Church by the severity of legislation, but he believed
' ' telt the spirit and disposition evinced by the majority tof
ti 11:°°Ple of this country, by their meetings and protes a-
''' ' ' ' . , le.; e' and every other symptom of their attachment to the
; ' . , e,,°testant Church of this country, were a sufficient safe-
',me i.
.:. l, pro against any aggression from without. Were not the
Eeeti;ste, tit Dissenters, in union with the Protestants of the
. ' -florae Church, continually holding meetings under the in-
saso'lles of their fears that the Roman Catholic Church was
,th ilt to make rapid strides on their much-cherished faith?
to the met to assure each other of their zeal and attachment
• . hr me creed of their fathers, and thus by entering into a
, . •, . in.?;, ,bond of union, they were determined to stand by the
always of the revolution. On those occasions they
eaoretys showed that the cause of their religion was indis-
e . •th`i'dY bound up with the interests of the Protestant
• ,
use reee_
. (Hear, hear.) 'He did not consider the present
' neelainte to be a sufficient one ; though the Attorney-Ge-
ov.i said it was intended to provide against a specific
eo,ll' and that he (the Attorney-General) in taking that
.'• - th Ile was acting on a sound maxim of policy. He thought
..
that it would be desirable that the Roman Catholic religion
, e - ,rCentel he.arranged in such a manner as would prevent the
e weetrence otany such agitation that might again arouse the
roistered feelings of the country. When he heard the
i ' ' e riP.- Member for Meath (Mr. 11. Grattan) allude to the
' .' lof 1813, for the relief of the disabilities of Roman Ca-
tholics,
1 as being one that, if then passed, would remove the
oir.eaitt-burnings and agitation which so virulently prevailed
' e
ed some securities from the Protestant Church, yet thereh
,:‘• . e itiet; other securities given by the Roman Catholic Church
.. , ... 'letter those ; and such a course he thought to be much
'elser
' the Bill
more judicious than any that could be effected by
. tots-L.)IH of 1813 ; for the Act of 1829 sanctioned a commune.
th.ton between the see of Rome and the,Roman Catholics of
peZeeQuntrY, and that communication was free and unim-
• ''' ,-, 'pees i owing to the well-known loyalty of the
• "'Yolks professing that creed, and in consquence of that
to-744Y there was no interference' with the temporal con-
. ti "Is of•this country. He would next allude to the disposi-
. , s
~,
.• jitt evinced by the Government relative to the appointment
e ' t' 'te,aw Roman Catholic bishop.- (Hear.) The Government
in
ez„... owiesetated it as their fixed resolve not to interfere in the
..-.,0ht.,,, of their bishops, but to leave all to the good sense of
eioem,e, who they knew would not sanction the consecra-
,,•,, ~ disloyal
persons who might be in any way suspected of
He believed that. the Noble Lord "(Lord J.. Rus-
-0.,.; . 181o1.1) avowed that he had no intention to interfere with the
, oeri ei.;.re I„ternal machinery of the Roman Catholic religion ; and with
11 e'f•
... o'""ePe‘, to that case, he should say that tbere *ere two points
!0,;14, te: '. h;', "'olds he felt very strong, and by which he was resolved to
ritt t I', :1' t, 4 4uided throughout that discussion. He meant the position
~,1,e4,• . ltholic.bishops in this country, and the constitution of
`ssrmele user church discipline, and their spiritual authority over
* anew'
t-.,_:- tin:a . /VA 'People. With regard to the former, he did not e''" t`
ley, 'O, look to mere abstract questions oflaw; but he should
'44'4 e .heeolv'ten he saw the Government declining to prosecute,
,?,
teuoieeinz.
ththeetre were no legal precedents for such prose-
Roman Catholics were justifiable in recognising
~ exe Jurisdiction of the Pope, and the Pope had a right to
- eatlTotisie..:_spiritual and ecclesiastical authority over theltoman
• -
that CS of this countrye---(Hear, hear.) He was aware
peoro°°,me persons would consider such an opinion as he then
whii.ligated to be at variance with the oath of supremacy,
ob__,Je.ee.setultinate,oaasti: Protestant member, had taken, but to that
• take -(141 he should reply, that he was prepared, as before, to
with a clear and unsullied conscience, for,
ho
wet did not mean to take refuge in words, be should,
pow
coLueird, idneuenyxplanation say, that he did not believe that the
oil Pe had any legal jurisdiction in this country, though no
did exist. that his spiritual and ecclesiastical authority
e was aware that many of his fellow-subjects,
foraho dliffered from him in religious belief, had been proscribed
oe..flitibut he was happy to say that those times
'' were
tthe
ci:grnegthie d
.E 3
y. ear, hear.) It was a well-known fact that
at that societ "le was an ecclesiastical Church, and
who claimed:. society placed under the government of men,
eeted the hiereee, el mission, and. that those men consti-
Albitlee was sznq
ve
the Church of Rome. Then if a Offeredpro-
othese men in the discharge of

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