The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-15 00:00:00

to another session of Parliament, and, knowing that a
single year would make a difference in the staie of the
question, while he did not kn.)w h.rw long he -hould have
a seat in that Hous., or how long his health would enable
him to attend to inquiries of this sort, he was determined
to take the sense of the House upon it.
Dr. NICHOLL said that as the examinations before
the Committee would not cornrnen2e before Wednesday
next, be had been anxious, as it was desirable to have the
evidence gi‘ten continuously and conseientitusly, to post-
pone till after Easter the labours of the Committees, not
for the sake of delay, but for generel convenience, and to
save expense. •

Sir St W. RIDLEY regretted that there was some-
thing approaching. in the construction of the Committee
which had been appointed, to a par, y feeling, which did
not hold nut a very fair prospect of a speedy and satisfactory
result. He spoke with great deference towards the indivi-
duals composing that Committee, but he could not disguise
from himself that by accidental circumstances, the choice of
that Committee had fallen upon very young and inexperienced
Members in Committee proce•d'ngs. He thought it,
therefore, very desirable, especially from the nature of the
case, and from the accidental circumstance to which he
had alluded, that the proposition of the Hon. Member op-
posite should be acceded to.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY strenuously advocated the intro-
duction of a Counsel on each side. If the corporation of
Liverpool misapplied their corporate funds, they would be
amenable to the burgesses, and, no doubt, would be made
answerable to them. Nothing could be so far from the
fact as the statement that had been made, that this Com-
mittee was to assume the form of a Grand Jury.

Lord ALTHORP had great doubts whether Counsel
should be employed or not. It certainly might be for the
advantage of cross-exansination that counsel should be em-
ployed, but he certainly felt no little degree of surprise at
the application coming from the side from which it did. He
felt, at the same time, great difficulty in saying counsel
ought not to be at liberty to cross-examine witnesses ; but
if the House should give that liberty, he trusted the Com-
mittee would take care tint counsel, by lung speeches,
should not delay their proceedings.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought it would be
extremely unjust to deprive tt e parties of the advantage
of cross-eximination of counsel, as he felt convinc d that

justice could not be done if the examination was not pro-
perly biftrd.
After a few observations from Mr. Benett, Mr. War-
burton, Sir M. W. Thdley, and Mr. Pryme, the motion
was agrred to without a division.
THE CHURCH (IRELAND).

Lord All HORP then rtioveil the order of the day for
the second readily, of " A Bill to alter and amend the laws
relating to the temporalities of the Church of Ireland ;"
is nm which
Mr. O'CONNELL complained of there having been
no s..ffic Col opportunity for presenting the petitions against
the Irish Coercive Bill.
Lord ALTHORP made a few observations in reply,
which were not audible in the galley.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL adverted to a recommendi-
tion of his, made in ti.e last session, that when there were
a number of petitions on the subject, and with the same
prayer, they might all be brought together, and only one
question tie put on them.
A desultory conversation took place on the mole of
presenting petitions, between Mr. Cobbett, Mr. Wilke,
and Mr. Rouinson, and one or two more Hon. Members,
when

Sir R. PEEL said, that in presenting petitions, as
littl-- time as poeeitile sh uld be uselessly consumed. Here-
marked, with respect to the sittings at twelve o'clock, that
besides other objections, they were open to a very mate-
rial one; namely, that reports of those sittings went
aoroad, the incorrectness of which, when they happened
to be so, could not be contradicted, without the loss of
a day.
Lord ALTHORP ssw no objection in consenting to
what the Hen. Member for Dublin demanded.
On the order of the day having been read for the se-
cond readirig of the Church Reform (Lisa) Bill,
Mr. C. W. WYNN conten ,ed tat the measures now
tab iut to be. passed were introduced in a manner that
completely militated against the standing orders of that
House, and that his NI sjeaty'rt Ministers would have done
better if they had more strictly adhered to the rules and
p actices of that House Those measures could not be
introduced in the present manner ; they should originate
in a Comm ttee of the whole House. He said this be-
cause no tax for private or public purposes could tie en-
deavoured to be imposed wahout its having been previ
ously submi.ted to such a Committee. He would quote
Hatsell's precedents, in which it was laid down that no
money could be raised on property by way of toll, duty,
or oturrwise, until such proposition was referred to a
Committee, so that when pecuniary burdens were to be
pl iced upon the people, for private or public purposes,
whether in the shape of toll or duty, the orders ant prac-
tices of that House nquired that they should be previously
discussed in Committee ref the whole House. Now let
any brat), take a cursory glance at the Bill before the House,
let him only look at its marginal notes; and in the very
fi r words of the preamble to that Bill would he found
the weed "tax." The first words of the preamble were
these :—" Whereas it is expedient to make provision for
'he abolition of first fruits in Ireland, and the substitu•
than of an annual tax in lieu thereof." Besides schedule
A, part of the first of that Bill contained " A yearly tax
to be imposed bison all benefices, dignities, and other
spiritual promotions under the rank of bishoprics." These
taxes were intend if far specific purpose , and if afterwards
there should be a surplus, it was to be used as Parlia•
ment should think proper to dii.ect. Moreover, the
money to be raised by the sale of perpetuities was a tax,
no matter for what purposes it might be destined, whether
for secular or other put poses of the State, or for the re-
pairs of churches, the increase of the incomes of poor
ourates, or for the piyment of the salaries of parish clerks.
If this was not laying a burden on one part of his Ma-
jesty's subjects, he knew not what was. In conclusion,
be begged to remind Ministers how extremely dangerous it
was to deviate upon any occasion, or for any purpose,
from the ancient and established rules and practices of
that House.
Lord ALTHORP fully felt the difficulty of arguing
pints of order with a person so thoroughly conversant
In them as the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just
spoken. However, he thought that the money clauses of
tae Bill could not be considered in the light of a tax,
since they were not applicable to the public generally.
Those clauses of the Bill related to the clergy, and were
intended to make rich incumbents pay the salaries of
poor curates. He was not certainly aware that the
framers of the Bill intended it for anything else, and
that they ever contemplated it could be so construed as
to he thought a measure for levying a tax. He undoubt-
edly agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that no tax
should be laid upon the people, without having recourse
to all the usual forms of that House ; but be, at the same
time, did not think that any part of the present Bill came
within the t ales and orders of the House. The word tax
was used in the preamble, but the question was—not what
were the words used, but what was to be dose. The tax
mentioned was applicable solely to church purposes; and
forming his judgment, from what he knew of his Right
Hon. Friend with whom the Bill originated, he was sure
that his Right Hon. Friend never intended it for any other
purpose. However, if the objections of the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite turned taut to be well founded, he
(Lord Althorp) would not persevere in introducing the
Bill in the present way, though he confessed that its in-
troduction by means of a Committee of the whole Hou.e,
would be productive of no other result but delay. He
repeated that the money clauses of the Bill were not for
raising taxes; and besides, these clauses would not be
introduced to tie House, until after they bad heard the
report of the Committee.
Sir R. PEEL said, that never in his life did he feel
more confident of being ab!e to convince anybody by
argument, than he then felt of being able to convince
the Noble Lord who had just sat down, that the money
clauses of this Bill could not be proceeded with, unless
they were referred to a Committee of that House. If
he had tnisunamstood the observations of the Nohle
Lord he requested to be corrected. The observations
of the Noble Lord were based upon two grounds. First,
that the Bill did not impose a tax, :or it was not a
general tax, but one that related to the clergy and to
imperial.
Lord purposes; that it was local and not
Lord ALTHORP—I did not say local. What I meant
point t.m
is
but iutro-
e second to say was,
that
by this Bill we deducted from the ineetnes
of a certain portion of the clergy, and we applied what we
d-ducted t • the support of another and a poorer portion,
senriief—cttat of having
perfectly
and to other Chuielt purposes. A burden certainly is laid
oa some in.lividuals; but that burden is not levied in order
understood.
t be app ied to any Stater,
services.
clueing the other ortlons of the Bill iti the present way.
ors polo
e
s-s rein.
to
His answer to this concession of the Noble Lord was, that
tHh
moneyr would R.
there
cE P
u i PEEL —`Nell,
r end that
ei
a cmittee,
the Bill could noteu to a second la ailing without its first
!Living been submitar d to a Committee. As a proof of
this, he would quote from Hatsell's Precedents; "On
the 29ih of March, 1707, it way resolved—That this
House will not proceed upon any petition, motion, or Bill,
for granting any money, or fir releasing or compounding
any suns of money owing to the Crown, but in a Com-
mittee of the whole House, and that the same he declared
to be a standios order of the House." So far that order

AO '
0011;1...___...er order 0
f WI
be 27th °' to
a Committee of the whole Elouse. On t
he
_nice pi
1785, a motion was toad- for reattla in° P h
twhaast conclusive.
Is] slfvoer. locTall'epruerrpinasse4at altistanitiPtd:leg
city of Westmuineter,
pose. Toe motion, as it had not origin ea. les.
siderea Ir tio
mime of the whole House, wag con
0.,_
What happened the day after ?---was the nt :141,0ef
to a Committee? No: it eta• withdraw" ell pis i#ol
applied exactly to the subject matter hefor
' ' So fir hscil,,
it it did not, he knew not what do.. )9th ilebril!'
1677, there was a standing order of the feel
a, Woe. e 0
" That if any motion be made in t. be coo den
°I
of its having been iriegula ly prepagr:he goo; •
public aid or charge upon the peoPlee the eateredll;l
amt for imposing a tax Itiot-f 1:::
and debate thereof ought not pres ntly t: °the ghats I
but adjourned till such future day a ibe refereed I
think fit to appoint ; and then it ought t' . _joins'
be reported thereupon, before any retmolution (1..„.41 do,
the Committee of the whole Howe,
House to pass therein." On this subject B 7ieb 6fo
remarks—'• The House of Comtnons have; :_opf
wisdom, imposed these rules and restriction Pi"o ,
~4
selves, in the exercise of that great and mustoil,
privileee, ' the sole aad exclusive right o.f rebeir!ott
and supplies to the Crown' in order--oar it ;a
when they are imposing burdensupon their 1 "t" ~eceas!,
to give every opportunity for free and frequenvotee, of/
—that they may not, by sudden and basla drool;
expenses, or be induced to approve of me 9 be
upon 1 VI
and therrevFou co!
might entail heavy and lasting burdens . tbet,io,o
and their posterity. It is upon this princie, `T 1,11:y
ago as 1667, the House laid it down for a ruie,e upoo,
motion or proposition for an aid, or cbs'ltbst all,
people, should be ' presently' entered WI; e ,e,eli.4!
means due and sufficient notice of the aullet. eern`
given, and that the Members should not 1'0,047';
into a vote, but might come repared to a".••:400::
argument which the importance of the cl'! ~400;
demand.' Another part of the
such propositions shall rec ive their 0;05 fits p
in a Committee of the whole House,' is 11° oftet!°A!
prudent. There every Member may speak a'.l deere;;li
finds it necessary ; and is not confined, „IP IletiSi
his opinion, by those rules which are to be ou"oiss;k
speaking in the House; and which, In Matterso.ieo
and computation, would be extremely inc°lll,eb rt!Lsi
would necessarily deprive the House of "'lt 11P:al
useful information. This mode of proceed:ll4o'o
gives an opportunity of a further and more Mitte
ration, when the resolutions of the Coo° onty ist)
ported ; to which the House may either not etiejtalo
or disagree, but, if they are of opinion that thecooa fl
not been sufficiently canvassed, they WY rfireese°f,,j,
same ort,e'di.
,011
whole, or any part of the report, for the roe'reasta
ceiving more accurate information, or au'reeh-e 03 .
quiring into the ileum and expediency of oimedo
proposed." In the case of Campbell, wh° •to et
pensation for injuries sustained during tV° polioo
gow, there was a Bill brought into the h05e0.,,,e).
the case being referred to a Committee • ;Wes
the case was referred to a Committee °' tittle
Means.—(Hear, hear.) He would then begeeii la.
House to the practice of the Noble Lard 11,_411; it 131
cases. In 1821, he (Lord Althorp) brougut -,, ea°l
a Bill certainly) of very minor importance Whe-elo i.,
with the present—it was one relating to ga° VP-
a tax of 2/. was laid on all game certificate's' A gbell
that case bring the Bill into the House, Oa !pa it ./t
pass the first and second reading before refertlep tsje
Committee ? No. The clauses which re.Alre it, Iwil
laying on of that tax, were PrintWl Ili
that they might be taken into considers° ei 41
Committee of the Huse.—( Hear, hear'l.o eel
were instances of the practice of the Pc'ttil'
o i
ler
ns)
local taxes, and for local objects. Surely, tceer
question of this nature, which referred to the 0000
the ~
Church, and extended over all Ireland'
not to be less gu ,rded than they were in Sb°6:tlsSm,
Could there be a doubt that the BM laid °P, that '''
they were told in the preamble of the 13i ' 011,,
expedient to make provision for the Oolitic° ti ti%
in Ireland, and the substitution of an 11°1 t Ibtje
thereof," and when they were further told '''),:pli"
coeds of " the said annual tax were to be bra; tee
building, rebuilding, and repairing of cb°,rc etsil
1
such like eccle.iastical purposes, and to t".,,e -war
of small livings ?" And if it were a fir4peoPio
the House that no Bill laying a max up"" t'-canta°'
proceed without a previous resolution' 01°,0 0)0
thought that there could be no doubt "";,„ tifieu,
411
and he thought the House would not "Jbo4asecy')
witting a different principle. He liord',, etwii°:lle
the Noble Lord would see the propriety o'-rceeers'i
original motion made by him on a ferl-wittee ('
the queatmon should be reterred to a '''"„esegl ti°ll,.„l,
House, and give time to consider the-n- Oe w',..)
the first and second reading of the B'll, h sclini."=",
1.
the Noble Lord would not, in a case te°l'.,.,--40 eel'
much doubt, press the House to act in 2 `..6.- etas'
from what bad been done by former Varlit' 't
°°4l
Mr. STANLEY said the whole arg°°vsesk '"
the Right Hon. Baronet rested his cs'e,,, I 01. 0
present Bill was meant to lay on either a "-t:/011100
tax, and be referred in the course of his,Blll,oo,
resolution, adopted in 1807, " That th'',l fat r)ii
proceed upon any petition, motion, or 13" '4 se lit
any
to::nlwlmeueyntpoi I ir,onoonow,::neri
es reterred
proceeding
compound
.:emßiriltpnuiriteteuttol thenCn dy i'
n in'
plivwgee:ntrniYtersi
yoebd cnuio:fftwm:t iriuonP:el different
rl3OOO :god:l!te t
.0::fr 1 11
il
nri);
present B:11, for it was a resolution to re-eieva,lo
clf,
vioeurr,
eut
:I:di:nen:sag
f.:Cirio
lamttghmdie
beingi
dttne
noe ~n,
completelyt-r
eßsiutitenhte r
originateecil
new:
napg soyia:la
t,..,:lati
.;:ed:rolfoyces;e:"00;.:
garding curates' salaries. That Bill i new Palt.ii
resident curates who haul not an adequate Joitt7
House, nor indeed in the House of Cato."-, ; r sa, a.
in the House of Lords. This was a 13vtii:g; flyt
the minor clergy. He was told by his ''',.l II" '§ f
Friend (Mr. Lamm., we believe) that it u'i-dadif
in the House of Lords, but that did not 's Pc?
not, at all events, originate in a Contrail itj- II
that Bishops might enforce residence; 8° tit ro",
clauses providing for the improv, meat of te.oid or
parsonage-houses, &c. What, then, did filet thee
fire them du? It set aside certain tonne
..a,oel
:lance of curates, for the increase of the iilywes,p,
livings, for time improvement of glebe b°11.)0 114 P
two Bills were, in fact, pan passn. Ifillo die it)
the same. But, what was still strouger'„o 10'
the increase of curates' salaries, there 9,
clause for the support of small livings, burpo
gradual scale of taxation, by which it 'vs! tot°:i
benefices should pay these curates accredinlive fir
Neither in the one nor in the other was tbl,ticl;
constitutional jealousy which was felt in g,,orebbi
the Crown, hut both agreed in referring to `l.l to 00
The same principle, would, therefore, 1‘131a1)141i°
if it were competent to tit iginate the one '''..old J
without referring it to a Committee, 4 W,,,ber• „b 4
follow that it would be cempetent in theftv- 0 ii,..,
tended, then, that he bad made out a ia tr..."‘
were right in the former ins'ance in tece'li, eV, !
Salaries Bill. it was, in the common se:f3ill'i
case, justifiable in receiving it in the Pre9e° Sill''
roe° sal
Mr. GOULBURN said, that if the Pr4ott
lay a tax upon the people, it would bet'" of r,:e
House should not go into considerati"°.‘ thee()
those constitutional guards which had if lbw
sary in such cases.—(Hear; hear.) b't3,a Ostrf°
doubt upon the sue jeer, then it woll'"eetee -
importance to delay the matter, 25 °A
ag it)111'
decision. He thought, that in the "rleeo)`"
present Bill ought to be referred to a ''' ~ )1
whole House.—(Hear, hear.) ,A OP,'
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL sat
question was whether this was a Big it, efh"l
the people, or interfering with the tece-iteottg?"
If it were either the one or the other, elate
in the first instance, to be referred to 1.1 "-ape.
whole House.—(Hear, hear.) But ° beacit'd
that it aid not fall within either of 00%100,
sidered it merely as a Bill for the regu..tet 0,1
perty of the Church, and for the he" ostej
themselves.—(Hear, bear.) The 14°bo IPJO .
ferred to the Westminster case, but 41 t, Of)
a stamp duty imposed, which, of eauts;9 to VI
sary to refer it to a Committee. Tbe°' de to,
from Glasgow, there was no questions n:la the p
nor in which it was conducted, 1 ,gb,). (il,
weight could be attached to tt.--(A lea If Ilif
That the Curates' Salaries Bill was pet ji oto,
it there was a tax laid on all the clerglao, or
clergyman had a living of 500/, be b 00'10
sum ; it 1,0001., he was to pay so much
ad
exactly the same vise with the presn it.
that the House might
Mr. SHAW said, the Hon. and Lea."
that the Bill was tnere)y to regulate o:thdr,
Church ; but the very first provisin:l_4o Is; ,
•'t.
That it was expedient to make pro 7.1051.,11
tion of first fruits in Ireland, and tbe
_i"ectir
(I
annual tax in lieu thereof." He d.e.°0:0•1)1
principle arplied in the Curates 13,11 00,
safely go on withr
rietrefi
the present Bill ; and be begged of the
in Ole
part from their established rules a