The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

LONDON; FRIDAY EVEN ING: MAY 23, Ism.

Ons.—This afternoon the public sales of 270 tuns Sperm
Oil went at lower rates, and a part only sold; the best did
not sell above 851; 138 casks Gingelly Oil at 281 to 301 per
tun.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

(THIS EVENING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool
sack a' Five o'clock.

REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES BILL.
On the motion of the day for the committal of this
Bill,

The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed his disap-
probation of certain provisions of this Bill.
Lord CAMPBELL was surprised at the opposition
offored to this Bill, which was founded upon the reports
of the Commissions on Real Property, and which had
been considered in Select Committee, and which he be-
lieved had in principle the support of the great majority
of their Lordships.
The Earl of FEVERSHAM was opposed to the Bi'

eonosuen ot
county
their title-deeds
It was mhoostuludrgbeenctaitlhedatupthoen
tloanrdegedts.
register
rroprietors of the
country s
uwno
juulsdt. cast
I t wa
agsrneaott
"the!)
them, an
and theirdmwourutgidagbees.molstt
attorneys alone, it was the great body of the landed pro-
pri tors who were opposed e to this measure of general
registration of title-deeds. They would require a build-
ing as large as the Crystal Palace to hold all these
registers.
Lord BEAUMONT thought the course adopted by the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack eras scarcely
fair. The report on which the Bill was founded was pre-
sented to that House last year, and was referred to a se-
lect Committee, on which the Noble and Learned Lord
sat. His only objection Was to an index of maps that
was overruled. The Committee then went into Com-
mittee, when the Noble and Learned Lord had an
opportunity cf bringing forward his objections.
He did not bring forward his objections. instead of
the present process the proposed measure gave the mort-
ga;ee . perfect security without expense. The Noble
and Learned Lord never stated his objections in Com-
mittee, and that was the proper place for the Noble and
Learned Lord to bring forward his objections, if he en-
tertained them. He had a great suspicion that the
Noble and Learned Lord was against registration
altogether, and he thought he might to rn round
and oppose the measure which was ietroduced
by his own colleagues in the Government. There
was no intention, as the Noble Lord opposite 3 upposed,
of forcing him to bring all his title-deeds to London.
All he would have to do, if he wished to dispoim of his
estate, would be to afford the proposed purchaser an op-
portunity, which under the present system he would de-
mand, of investigating the title; and the rellistration
would enable the purchaser to dispose of the es tate with
much greater facility than the Noble Lord could do
under the present system.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that his r espect for
their Lordships would not suffer him to pass over the
imputation of unfairness, and he hoped that t!t,eir Lord-
ships would not judge of the general accuracy of the
Noble Lord by his accuracy on this occasion. He bad
attended the Committee on its second meeting, and stated
that he understood that great objections existed to the
scheme, but had not made up his mind, and that under-
standing great differences or opinion existed temeog the
Commissioners, he said he thought the best pilau would
be to examine the Commissioners. They were examined,
and, although that examination was not concluded, be
had heard sufficient to satisfy him that the plan of maps
was perfectly iripncticable. If a plan could ;be devised
for rtgi3traiiou wehich could carry out the object he
would suceort it. Ic was F ass to tiring iu Bala for reform,
but unlesr they were well considered they were s rorse than
eselets. If this Bill could facilitate the conveyance of pro-
perty it would be efgreat useeif not it would be a great evil.
He had not attended the Committee since. lie had not
use power of attending the Committee and of admi-
nistering justice in their Lordships' 111,-,usq, and the
Court of Chenc-ry at the same time,—(U par, hear.)
"Whet did the Noble Lord mean by taxing: him with
entairnets ? He bad done his best, conaisterat with the
numerous and onerous duties he had to perform--
(Hetr)—to understand this Bill, and be tboought 'the
the Bill required amendment. There was °Re clause
which was most objectionable, and that was the clause
that required a will to be registered within two years.
That clause would disinherit many widows and orphans.
He lied met with many persons who had been
loud in their eulogies on this Bill, be',auso they
were ignorant of its provisions, but when they were
informed of them they changed their opinions. He was
not the opponent of registration, he would be a most
zealous assistant if his Noble and Learned Friend would
introduce a measure that was practicable.
Lord BEAUMONT explained, that in using the word
unfairness he had no intention of casting arty personal
imputation on the Noble and Learned Lord. He had
merely meant to say that he thought if the Noble and
Learned Lord had attended the Committee he might
have rendered the cause of registration, of which he
declared himself a friend, great service.
Lord CRANWORTH had been a member of the
Committee, and would explain to their Lordships what
had taken place before that Committee.
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER. took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

CONSIDERATION OF LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
The Lords' amendments to the Shrewsbury and Bridg-
north Turnpike Roads Bill were considered, and passed.
THIRD READINGS.
The following Bills were read a third time, and passed:
Birmingham Improvement.
Malmesbury Turnpike Roads.
Warrington and Altrincham Junction Railway.
Waveney Valley Railway.
CONSIDERATION OF BILLS.
The following Bills were considered, and agreed to:--
Dee Standard Restoration.
Great Central Gas Consumers' Company.
COAL DUTIES BILL.
Sir JAMES DUKE brought in the Coal Duties Bill
for London, Westminster, and the adjacent counties,
which was read a first time.
__ PE TITIONS.
_

Mr. T. O'BRIEN presented a petition from a place
in Ireland against the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY and several other Hon. Members
presented similar petitions.
Mr. C. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from a
Dissenting congregation in Lancashire against the Re-
glum Donum.
Mr. GRACE presented a large number of petitions
from Roscommon against the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Mr. W. PATTEN presented a petition from a place in
Lancashire in favour of the equitable jurisdiction of
county courts.
Mr. BRIGHT presented several petitions from Man-
chester against the Regium Donum.
Mr. FRE WEN presented a petition from a place in
Lancashire against Papal aggression.
Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN presented a petition from the
parish of St. Patrick, city of Limerick, in favour of the
Towns Improvement Bill.
The RECORDER presented a petition from a me-
tropoNion parish, praying that houses under 201. should
be exempted from the house. tax.
Mr. BERESFORD presented a petition from Essex
against Papal aggression.
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY presented a
large number of petitions from places in Ireland against
the R Houses Biii,
Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN presented a petition from
Limerick against the national system of education.
Mr. C. BRUCE presented a petition from a place in
Scotland against Papal aggression.
ADJOURNMENT' OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Mr. C. LEWIS, it was agreed that
the House at its rising should adjourn till Monday.
PETITIONS.

Sir PERCY. NUGENT presented several:petitions
from Ireland against the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill.
Mr. REYNOLDS presented similar petitions from
Dublin, Cavan, Wicklow, Tyrone, Kilkenny, Donegal,
Wexford, Fernagh, Monaghan, Down, Queen's County,
Kildare, and Clare.
Mr. SCULLY presented several petitions to the same
effect from places in Tipperary.
Mr. KEOGH presented similar petitions from Ros-
common, Galway, and Wexford.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented a similar petition
from a place in Kerry.
Mr. POWER also presented similar petitions from
places in the county of Kerry.
Mr. GREENE presented similar petitions from pa-
rishes in Kilkenny.
Mr. MOORE presented petitions to the same effect
from Roscommon, Tyrone, Donegal, Derry, Mayo, Gal-
way, Antrim, and other counties in Ireland.
WELCH TURNPIKES.
Sir J. TYRELL moved for a return of the expenses
of the general superintendence of turnpike-roads and
highways in Wales.—Agreed to.

CAPE OF GOOD HOPE.
r•ADDERLEY asked the Under-Secretary of State
forts the
07: Colones, whether the last paragraph in the ap-
:t h
Orange le Book
rii
v 0 jest stpresentedSovereignty, a rang the
all foofr mt
hae-
tion of the e
I l orrespondenee upon the suspended formation of
the Cape co et.
fore the one
s;; which it was intended to lay be-
the extent to vgbior' if the House would be informed of
borrowing from the 1143
Governor of the Cape was now
the revenue whichcountit
henglish Treasury, on the credit of
might be able to rais m? he could
sat7dserve under h
get a Legislative
Lord J. RUSSELL
l
looked at fhe votes he would l the Hon. Member had
papers—one set relating to the &heave seen two sets of
and the other to the Cape constitutinoge river sovereignty,
ber had evidently adverted to one rlje The Hon. Mem-
looking at the votes and learning thetem instead of
(Lord John Russell) believed that one set _ nature. He
had bee
livered, and that the other would be delivered ' n de.
or two, it having, taken more time to prepare. mitae
didda
not very well know what the Honourable Gentleman
meant by his last question. Sir Harry Smith had
been, as the House ryas well aware, endeavouring to
protect the British subjects in Kafararia from the at-
tacks and murders which had lately overwhelmed them.
He was now fully employ ed on that duty, and he did
not think it would be desirable to embarrass him by
stating anything in the House which was calculated to
have that effect.
-lilt% ADDEELEY wished to know whether the
acY paid for current expenses above the amount of
_ the revenue received by the Governor would be borne
by the En,7lish T ?
Treasury
Lord J - '
J. RUbz, ELL said he would make inquiry. but
he
was not aware of any sums being expended beyond
the revenue.

EPISCOPAL REVENUES.
Sir B. BAL L wished to know when the returns

SUN,

respecting episcopal revenues would be laid on the table?
Sir G. GREY said a return of the incomes of arch-
bishops and bishops had been presented to the House
to-day.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. BRIGHT complained that the motion for the
adjournment of the House had been moved for at the
unusual time of ten minutes past four. Now, it had
been the practice hitherto to ask important questions of
Government upon that motion being made, which were
of great interest to the public, and it was therefore only
right that the metion for the adjournment should
be delayed until such time as the mejority of Hon.
Members are present. He asked the Speaker whether
it was not more consistent with the practice, if it was
not indeed a rule of the House, that the motion should
be made after the time alloted to private business had
expired.
The SPEAKER said there was no rule of the nOll4O on
the matter, and the motion could be made at any
time. If the motion were to be taken advantage of
for the purpose of raising discussions on different topics,
it would lead to great inconvenience, and practically
destroy the rule which gave orders the precedence over
motions.
Mr. BRIGHT repeated that it would have been more
straightforward had the adjournment been moved at a
later period.
The matter then dropped.
MINISTERS MONEY IN IRELAND.
Mr. REYNOLDS wished to know when the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government intended to fulfil
his promise to bring in a Bill for the abolition of mi-
nisters' money in Ireland.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the discussion on the Eccle-
siastical Titles Bill had taken up so much time, that he
was afraid he should not be able to introduce the Bill
this session.
Mr. REYNOLDS gave notice then that he would
take an early opportunity of calling the attention of the
House to evidence taken before the Select Committee
on ministers' money in Ireland, with the view of intro-
ducing a Bill for its abolition.
ROCHESTER CATHEDRAL.
Mr. MO WATT wished to know if' the Right Hon.
Secretary for the Home Department had any objection
to produce the correspondence which had taken place
between the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Dean
and Chapter of Rochester Cathedral, on the subject
of the trusts of that Cathedral?
Sir G. GREY said that not knowing anything of this
subject, he had made inquiry from the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners, and found that the correspondence con-
sisted merely of communications which had been re-
ceived from the Rev. Mr. Whiston on the subject,
and answers to him merely acknowledging the receipt of
his letters, and as legal proceedings were pending he did
not think it desirable to produce these at present.
Mr. MO WATT said that no legal proceedings were
at present pending, and consequently the answer of the
Right Honourable Baronet was not a sufficient one; he
should, however, give notice that on the first occasion
of going into Committee he would. take that opportu-
nity of bringing the case before the attention of the
House.
Mr. HORSMAN wished to know whether the Right
Hon. Baronet was aware that the clerk to the chapter
had written a letter to the Ecclesiastical Commission,
expressing his readiness to have all the correspondence
on the subject published.
Sir G. GREY said he had no knowledge of any such
letter, and he believed he had stated the substance of
all he knew to the House.
MON TE VIDEO.
Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that on Monday he should
ask a question of the Noble Lord at the bead of the Fo.
reegn Department wilh regard to Monte Video and the
loan granted to that country.
ECC,'LESIASIICAL TITLES BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill, Mr.
Bernal in the Chair.
0.1 clause 1,
Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE rose to move that the
clause be postponed, until the House its in possession of
a copy of the brief, reecript, or letters apostolioel upon
which the enactment in tho said clause is founded.
Whatever, he said, was the difference existing among
them on this question, it was allowed that they had now
obtained the Bill to which the Government
had pledged themselves to abide. This, how.
ever, was far from being the Bill which they
had read a first and second time. There was a great
deal of new matter, and particularly the first clause,
which he was about to ask them to postpone. That clause
made mention of the letter or rescript from the see of Rome
and he thought they ought to have this rescript before
them before they consented to deprive many millions of
their fellow subjects conferred upon them by the
Emancipation Act. He had taken the liberty
of asking the Noble Lord to produce this brief
before, but he had been answered by being told that
it was a matter of notoriety contained in every news-
paper. Were they, however, to legislate on news-
paper information? Supposing, for instance, a Bill
had been brought in to banish M. Mazzini
and his companions merely on the ground of
the article which had lately appeared in the Times
newspaper respecting him, and which after all turned
out to be a mere hoax. What would they say then to
to legislating on newspaper information. He wanted
to know, then, why these letters apostolieal
would not also prove a mere hoax.—(Laughter.) He
denied, however, that this letter signed by Cardinal
Lambrochini when produced would be found to confer
any power or titles at all, it mentioned no man's
name, and conferred no titles, and yet their Bill
was to prevent the assumption of certain ecclesiastical.
The rescript gave no titles, and therefore he thought
the Noble Lord himself was bound to produce his
authority for these titles ever having been conferred.
Whencvcr a Railway or a Divorce Bill was introduced
into that House; the parties were obliged to prove their
preambles, and he would call now upon the Noble
Lord to prove his preamble. The Solicitor-General
had paid him a compliment the other night at the
expense of the Honourable Member for Athlone,
by :saying that his demand for the rescript was cer-
tainly just the sort of question which a man
of common sense would ask on the first
clause being considered, but the Solicitor.Geueral
seemed the most useful man he had met with for some
time, and he congratulated the Government on their
acquisition.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord John Russell.)
The Noble Lord cheered that, and he supposed, then,
the Solicitor-General was just the sort of man that they
wanted. He had said, too, that he was perfectly
ready utterly ;to demolish every argument which had
been or could be brought against the Bill.—(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") Well, then, he thought the
time was come for this demolition, and they would call
upon the Solicitor-General to perform his promise.
There certainly were not many lawyers on the
other side, although when he saw the Hon. and Learned
Members fur Sheffield, Athlone, and Plymouth, he would
find rather tough materials to deal with. The
Attorney-General however had said but little about the
Bill, and to do him justice seemed to care less.
Now, he asked, was it worth while going on with this
Bill and wasting the time of the House; had they not
better proceed with the business of the country ?—(Llear.)
He saw there were three or four amendments on
the paper, but be knew there was double
that number in reserve, and would it not he
better, under these circumstances, for the Noble Lerd
to make the Bill a present to the other side—(A laugh.)
Depend upon it the Noble Lord was pursuing a phantom;
he was intentionally becoming the advocate of principles
which neither became him nor belonged to him.
Then why would he still pereist in going en with the
Bill—why was he not satisfied with the bigotry which
he had evoked, with the laurels which (Went had pre-
pared for him, and with the commotion which
he had created from one end of the kingdom
to the other?—(Cheers.) If he was still not satisfied,
and was determined to go on, all he asked him
to do was at all events to furnish the House
with a copy of the documents on which he pro-
ceeded.---(Hear, hear.) They were not only in-
sulting the creed of our Roman Catholic subjects
and degrading the priesthood, but proceeding on false
principles and in the dark.—(Hear, hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he was much
obliged to the Honourable Member for his amusing
speech, but while he gave him credit for
his ready wit, and the many other qualities
he possessed, he was sorry that, in the interval
between Monday and Friday, his memory had
so seriously failed him. He considered [that no course
would be more derogatory to the House than to take
evidence that certain parties had assumed the title of
Archbishdp and Bishop for pretended sees under the au-
thority purporting to be given by the Pope, after the
circumstances which have lately become so notorious.
The Hon. Member had said there would be great diffi-
culty in indicting a person under the Act without
producing the rescript of the Pope. Now for the
satisfaction of those who thought the Bill ought to pass,
he gave his opinion, as a lawyer, that it would be effec-
tual, and that he had not the slightest doubt that, under
it, any person who assumed such titles might be con-
victed without the production of thatdccument.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member also said the Noble Lord had taken
a fatal step, that he had departed from those high prin-
ciples which distinguished the illustrious statesman
who brought forward the Bill for Catholic
Emancipation, but he (the Solicitor-General)
would venture to state that not only the Noble
Lord, but the party with whom he was connected Were
the parties who distinguished themselves in endeavour-
ing to remove those restrictions which pressed on the
Roman Catholics long before the period when that
lamented statesman passed his Bill. (Cheers.)
and it was because the principles of that Bill had
been grossly invaded by the gross arrogance of that
man who dared again to attempt to raise
what he called spiritual supremacy, but which was in
againa h
rat
cme
;o s
it despotic
was
b ee
asupsie-
rf ai
teut a la nc
oanttt er
o tvoe over a shee
he had endeavoured to violate the princi-
ples of civil and religious liberty, as in
the case of Sardinia and elsewhere, and
to exercise a spiritual tyranny over the people, that he
asked the House to give its hearty concurrence and as-
sent to the Bill which he trusted would be passed.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he would not follow the grandi-
loquence of the lion. and Learned Gentleman.
tlthiztoawtriattsyhhehoiftoipttihieneions that if there was any meaning in this
first clause was wholly useless, because before they
could convict a man under this Bill it must be proved
assumedß ul
Bull
referred
f ewr
ra
es d
be done.
Efoirtht
esbnudrytowtehree no,
_ proved if thethel.
Now a t i
how was that to be suggestion of the Hon,
sive as to put ainn
this Bill was utt4erttlaoykepuinnseltuehSnsedoeßrr so eaten-
Ireland.
'I he ATTORNEY-GENE Romanat Catholico te d
It
coreligionuld in
RAL said there would be
no necessity to adduce the proof which the lion. and
Learned Member referred to, and that was his answer
to the objections which had just
been addressed to the
aottunitto. Any offence to be omp •
141ttad against this

Bill would come under the second clause, and ail that
would have to be proved was simply that the offender had
assumed a title which the Bill prohibited. From what
were those prohibited titles? Why, simply, those that
were named after the existing sees in cities of this
country; and therefore no priest of the Roman Catholic
Church would be precluded from adopting a title taken
from a f r,ign see.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought the Hen. and Learned At-
torney- General had proved his case, and that was no
less and no more than the first clause of this Bill was
wholly useless and unnecessary.
Mr. WALPOLD wished to know if they mere to dis-
cuss the merits of the clause or that of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Finsbury? For his part, he thought they ought
to confine themselves, in the first instance, to the latter
question. Ought the brief of the Pope to be produced?
The Honourable Member for Finsbury founded
his motion upon the circumstance that there
was no evidence that any such brief had
ever been received in this country. Now was
that the way their ancestors proceeded on similar
emergencies ? No, they did not require strict
legal proof which the Honourable Member
demanded to-day, but they based their legislation upon
what in the Saxon tongue was known as common
clamour— (Ironical '.Boers)—but which when translated
upon modern phraseology meant public notoriety.
The receipt of the Pope's bull was too noforious to re-
quire legal proof, and he therefore called upon the Com-
mittee to reject this proposition.
Mr. KEOGH rose and was
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

BANK OF ENGLAND.
(From this night's Gazette.)
Andecount, pursuant to the Act 7th and Bth of Victoria ,cap . 32 for
the Week ending on Saturday, the 17th day of May, 1851,
185 Ta DEPARTMENT.
X.
Notes issued— •..... 26,705,095

X.
Government debt .. 11,015,100
Other securities .. . • 2,984,900
Gold coin and bullion 12,671,720
Silver bullion • • • • • • 33,375

X 26,705,095 I X 26,705,05
M. MARSHALL, Chief Cashier.
Dated the 22d day of May, 1851,

BANKING

,EPAZTAIISN T.

X. -
Proprietors'capital.. 14,553,000
Rest . •• 3,139,966
Public deposits (in-
elm:ling Exchequer,
Commissioners of
National Debt, Say-
ings-banks, and DI-
.

vidend accounts).. 6,017,417
Other deposits ...... 8,911,477
Seven day and other
•• .• 1,077,188

Government securi t.
-
ties (including Dead
Weight Annuity) .. I 3,590.9 g g
Other securities • • 1 idig7,695
Notes .. ••• • • • 7,1579,520
Gold and silver ooin•. E 51,825

£33,709,528

X 33,709,528
MARSHALL, Chief Cashier.

Dated the 22d day of May, 1851'

COURSE OF EXCHJ
Amster uarn •• • • 11 16!.,
Ditt.o, three months.. 11 18%
Rotterdam .... ••.. •• 11 181 X,
Antwerp.....,„„,,..25 25
Brassels • • • • 25 25
Flarr.t.urgh .. •. • • M.B. 13 8
iltona ..... .........
nirle, 3 days'erght .. 25 5
Ditto, 3 months 25 25
Marseilles 25 25
80urdeaux......... •
Fret.nlrfort on Maine.... 119
Vienna, ciTee. du...—. 12 59
Trieste, ditto.... • • .... 12 50
Petersburg/3, gll. Rble 37
Madrid 50
,':ull2 .• • . 5C1.1
Barcelona ............

kNG-E.-(THIS DAY.)
Leghorn .....• •••• .. •• 30 4734
lenoa ........... 25 35
Milan .• •••• • • • • . •• ••
Yapies
.• •• • • • • • • • • ••
Palermo, peroz• • •• •• ••
&retsina
•• • .
.•
•
•
itio Janeiro • •
Buenos Ayres••• •—• •
New York, 60 days'sight
Philadelphia •.....
PRICES OP BIILLION, PER OZ•
foreign Gehl in bars.. 43 17 9
Porti•gal Goiel C3ln •• U 0 0
3panish Doubloons 0 0 0
'dew Dollars .... •• 0 4 11%
-Myer in b irs ....•• 0 5 1%

41%
124
;244
53%
53%

SECONDARIEs'.—(THIS DAY.)
(Before Mr. Secondary POTTER.)
WAT3',N AND ANOTHER V. KIAMPT,'N.
Plaintiffs in this action are hop merccants in the Bo-
rough. Defendant is a brewer and innkeeper at Cot-
tenham, near Carebrige. The action was brought to
reme.er the surd of 21,, the alleged balance of an account.
Mr. PARNELL appeared us counsel for the defendant,
who pleaded the general issue. The facts of the case
were somewhat extraordinary. It appeared that in
February and March, 1849, defendant gave an order to
Mr. C. Hubbard, who was then the plaintiffs' traveller,
for hops, which were duly forwarded with au invoice for
12/. ss. 63., which was subsequently paid to Mr. Hubbard
and accounted for in due course, and further orders
were given to the extent of 221. odd, which was paid.
In January, 1850, however, plaintiffs wrote, requesting
payment of the latter sum, but subsequently admitted
that it was an error, and that the money had been duly
paid and received by them; but subsequently they wrote
to say that there had been an error in the first invoice,
and it ought to have been for 14L ss. 6d. Defendant
refused to pay the difference.
Witnesses were called, and only a portion of the
plaintiffs books produced.
Mr. Hubbell proved the orders given, and that
he had received the amount of the invoices, which had
been accounted for, and not denied by the plaintiffs.
Mr. PARNEIL thought this was a most unjust and
oppressive actim. It would be so even had there been
an error; for after two years vouchers might have been
destroyed or lost, especially after subsequent accounts
had been settled. The error, if any, was clearly through
the clumsy wile in which the plaintiffs kept their books.
It wile clear they had not courage to put in the whole
of the books, and even the one they did put in bad
erasures.
The Learned SECONDARY left it to the jury whether
there had been any mistake. If there had, and defen-
dant had not suffered any injury, perhaps the jury
would think that plaintiffs were entitled to recover; but,
on the other hand, although there might have been a
mistake, if the defendant had been, or likely to have
been a loser by selling on the invoice price, then the
verdict ought to be for the defendant. No doubt defen-
dant thought the charges low, and gave further orders,
and as hops fell so did the beer. The plaintiffs' books
appeared to have been very inaccurately kept, and the
jury ought not to place any very great reliance upon
them against the other evidence.
The Jury, after a brief consultation, gave a verdic
for the defendant.

NAVAL IN TELLIGENCE:--
Commodore Arthur Fanshawe, C. 8., in the Centaur,
6, steam-frigate, Acting Captain Patten, may be daily
expected at Spithead from the Coast of Africa; Com-
modore Bruce, in the Penelope steam-frigate, Captain
Lyster, having relieved him as Commander of the
station.
Asia, 84, Captain R. F. Stopford, is stripped at Ports-
mouth, and will be paid off on Saturday.
Avon steam-tender, M. Veitcb, second master com-
manding, arrived at Devonport on Wednesday from
Sheerness and Portsmouth. She then filled up with
coals, took in provisions, and sailed in the evening for
Queenstown, whore she will remain for some weeks,
under the orders of Rear-Admiral Dixon.
The old Fast Indiaman, the Herefordshire freight-
ship, of 1,400 tons, belonging to Messrs. Fer-
guson and Moore, arrived at Spithad on Wednesday,
and vras towed into harbour alongside the yard jetty
3 esterday morning. She is by far the best fitted ship
for troops we have ever seen. Both troop decks are
,iry su.ci spacious. The infirmary and the part for the
use of the women are very complete and commodious.
The moldiers sleep in hammocks, which adds greatly to
their cleanliness and comfort. She is to take the 13th
liegiqiect and one company of the 44th to Gibraltar.
Fiotn Gibraltar she takes the weal route to the We,t
tlalifex, and home. We understand the 13th
are expect d to embark on Saturday next.
PORTSMOUTH, THURSDAY.—Taii morning the Fairy
steam-yeeht, Captain Lord Adolphus Fitzrilarence,
embarked the four youngest members of the
royal family at the Clarence-yard under the usual cere-
1113Lies, and proceeded with them to Osborne. On the
embarkation of the royal children the special train, in
charge of Mr. Stovin, manager of the South-Wistern
Railway, returned with the utmost speed to London to
receive the Queen and Court. In two hours the journey
was performed, and at 2.40 P. 31. the royal train again
started from Nine Elms with the Queen, Prince Albert,
the Prince of Wales, and Princess Royal, the Prince and
Princess of Prussia, the Duke and Duchess of Saxe-Co-
Wig, the Duke of Mecklenburgh, and a brilliant suite,
anc attended by Colonel Reid, of the 2d Life Guards,
M.P. for Windsor (one of the directors of the South-
Western Railway Company), Mr. Stovin, Mr. Beattie,
Mr. Stevens, &0., and arrived in the Clarence-yard at
4.4: this afternoon, where they were received by the
naval and military authorities as usual on such occasions.
The Fairy embarked the royal cortege and left with
theca for Osborne, the ships in the harbour and the Go-
vereolo, Sardinian steam-sloop, manning yards and sa-
lutirg, as did the Hogue, Ajax, and the Turkish sloop at
Spitieacr. The Herefordshire troop-ship, in harbour,
also manned her rigging. Her Majesty will return to
town on Monday morning next.
Hir Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent will arrive
at Gisport en route to Osborne to-morrow afternoon and
return on Monday.
Rear-Admiral Prescott, C. 8., proceeded on leave o
absence yesterday, and struck his flag on board the Bri-
tannh.

Tto Governolo, Sardinian steam•sloop, arrived yester-
day, Ind came into harbour from Woolwich.

DEATH OF COLONEL MITCHELL, ROYAL MARINES.
—WtOLIVICII, MAY 22.—Colonel Hugh Mitchell, Second
Colosel Commandant of the Woolwich Division of Royal
Mariies, died at five o'clock A.m. to-day, at his residence in
the Loyal Marine Barracks, after a very short illness. The
Gallini Officer entered as Second Lieutenant in the Royal
Marius on July 9, 1803 ; was promoted to First Lieutenant
on August 15, 1805; Captain, July 31, 1826; Brevet-Major,
Novunber 3.1841; Lieutenant-Colonel, July 10, 184; and
on ha promotion to Colonel, on February 28, 1851, was re-
moved from the Plymouth Division, and appointed Second
Commandant of the Woolwich Division.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, May 22.
SECULAR EDUCATION.
Mr. W. J. FOX then rose, pursuant to notice, to
move that it was expedient to promote the education of
the people, in England and Wales, by the establishment
of free schools for secular instruction, to be supported
by local rates, and managed by committees, elected
speeially for that purpose by the ratepayers. Be said
he rose with some encouragement to make this proposi-
tion, because, at the recent anniversary of the British
turd Foreign School Society, the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government, who presided over the meeting, ex-
ressed his conviction that the present was a fitting
time for making additional efforts to promote the educa-
ton of the I,eople. The proposition, therefore, that
le was now making. to the House was not in its object
ill-tunad. lie did not, however, think the Noble Lord's ,
language was sufficient to warrant him in expecting that
the Noble Lord would honour this motion with his sup-
port, but it did warrant him in expecting
_that it would

be received in no obstructive spirit by the Government.
He thought this was peculiary the time when efforts for
education were necessary, because passing events
were such es to make them sensible of the
position of their country in this particular. In
almost every department, military, constitutional,
and literary, there was room for self-congratulation, but
on this one of education, it was not a question whether
England was first among the nations, but ninth, tenth,
or twelfth. If they looked, too, at their
own internal condition—at the mass of pauperism
and crime which existed among them, they
would also see what necessity there was for an educa-
tional movement. They heard a great deal of the
over-crowded state of the labour-market, but if they
looked at the report of the inspectors they would find
that in many districts, while there was a super-
fluity of uneducated labour, there was a great
deficiency of that which required skill and education.
The constitution of the country supposed knowledge and
education in all subjects, and called upon all citizens to
discharge duties which could not be discharged by un-
educated men. The means now pursued for the promo-
tion of education were not sufficient to carry out a
system of education sufficient for the wants of the peo-
ple. Tie prove this, ho would rely only on the reports
of the Government Inspectors themselves; all of which
were nothing more than a continued illustration of
the necessity of some measure being introduced for the
compulsory adoption of a general system of education.
He did not mean to charge the Committee with inten-
tional partiality, but apparent and inevitable partiality
was inherent in the system. There was another point '
which gave the appearance of partiality to the adminis-
tration of these grents. OF nil the school inspectors ap-
poirred there were only three who did not belong to
one profession, and that was the Church. There
was also another show of partiality induced by the in-
structions which the Committee of Council laid down in
regard to the be±towment of grants. Money
was given, not in proportion to the educational
wants of a district or locality, but the amount of volun-
tary subscriptions which were collected for the purposes
of education. He found that an application for a grant
was refused, because no particular religious education
was given in the school, yet in many schools of
this description, a more sound and really moral
and religious education was afforded than in many
establishments professing to be of a higher character.
In rural districts the greatest difficulties had to be
encountered in the formation of charitable schools,
and the owners and occupiers of land contributed
very trifling sums towards the funds required for the
purpose. Hence the necessity became apparent for the
interposition of the Government to make all classes pay
in proportion to their means to the education of the
people. Another reason why the present system could
not accomplish the purposes of a national education was,
that a religious difficulty stood in tho way, and that
'people refused to pay for that which did not aeree with
their religious tenets. The Hon. Member then quoted
passages from the reports of Mr. Kennedy and other
school inspectors, for the purpose of showing the neces-
sity of some measure being devised for the extension of
a wise and enlightened system of secular education.
The inspectors did not speak merely from the condition
ot the great bulk of the schools actually in exigence;
their impressions were derived from the best class of
schools, and they had seen these schools in their best
condition. We need look no further than this itnpor-
tent fact, however, that the schools actually existing
were twice as large as was necessary for the accommo-
dation of the children who attended them. In the gene-
ral return of the schools aided by Government grants,
amounting to 3,255 schools, it was stated that the ac-
commodation for children was adequate to 539,000, hut
that the average daily attendance wes only 246,979.
With regard to the administration of the Government
grant, too, in his opinion there had been very consider-
able partiality exhibited—not an intentional but an in-
evitable partiality—which was inherent in the system,
and which could not but indispose a great portion of the
people to giving their cordial co-operation in carrying
out that system. Now it could not be doubted that the
British and Foreign School l-ociety had effected much
good throughout the country; but what figure did it cut
in the grant for public education? In the year 1840,
when the public grant was only 60,000/. the amounts
granuol to the National Church Schools and the British
and Foreign Schools were about equal; being 5,2461. to
the one, and 4,220/. to the other. In the next year the
grant was increased, and the disparity showed itself. The
Church Schools received 13,197/., and the British and Fo-
reign Schools only 10,945/. In 1849 the disparity became
extraordinary, and the Church Schools obtained 39,574/.
out of the public grant, and the British and Foreign
Schools only 3,3501. ; end last year the public money
applied to Church Schools was 24,7204, while that to the
British and Foreign Schools was only 386/. Now he
did not complain of intentional partiality in the distri-
bution of the grant. He believed the discrepancy was in-
separable from the fact that the religious difficulty, and
other difficulties incidental to education, had thrown the
British and Foreign Society back in its claims on the
public funds. But could it be said that this disparity
represented the relative position, labour, and usefulness
of those two great societies? And was not an injurious
effect necessarily produced thereby on the public mind?
But whatever was the cause, there was the result.
Another point in which the present system exhibited
partiality, though it was not intentional, was, that of all
the inspectors appointed, there were but three who did
not belong to the Established Church; and these three
were absolutely requisite—one for the British and Fo-
reign, one for the Wesleyan, and ono for the Roman
Catholic schools. Another appearance of partiality was
produced by the restrictions laid down by the Privy
Council in the bestowal of grents. It gave the least help
where most was needed. It gave in proportion, not to the
educational wants of a locality, but to the amount of the
voluntary subscriptions raised in that locality. Another
partiality, which had au injurious tendency in certain lo-
calities, was this—poorratepayers in the rural districts did
not look with complacency at finding themselves rated to
give an education to pauper children, which they were
unable to bestow upon their own children—(Hear)—and
it was stated in the third annual report for 1850 that
the high standard of workhouse education was fast
ceasing to be exceptional. But the worst of the partial
results of the existing system was the inequality with
which the support of schools pressed upon the different
classes, and especially upon the clergy. The Hon.
Gentleman here read the list of subscribers to one vil-
lage school, from which it appeared that to raise the
sum of 281., the expense of that school for one year, six
landlords and farmers subscribed ss. a piece, the princi-
pal landowner in the parish three guineas, a friend of
the rector 5/., and the poor rector himself l 7s. 10s.—
(Hear, hear.) Surely a state of things like that showed
the absolute necessity for the intervention of Govern-
ment, so far as to call upon every man to pay according
to his means. There was an aversion in persons to pay
towards the support of that which did not agree with
their theological opinions, and yet the present system,
in a strange manner, whilst giving a stern denial to
merely secular education, patronised every kind and
species of theology, applied the public money to any
creed, patronised error as regularly as truth, and seemed
to rest on the conviction that there was some evil in
mere instruction which might be rectified even by a bad
theology.—(fletir, hear.) The British and Foreign
Schwds Society bad us exclusive a creed as the National
School Society themselves. And where, he asked, was
the wisdom, the justice, or the propriety of calling upon
Protestants to supply funds for the support of schools
in which they had been told Madonnas were wor-
shipped by the children, and which schools were em-
ployed in the promulgation of that to which the country
tack the must violent exception?—(Hear, hear.) Every
one heel now to pay for something which he dis-
believed, and he in turn became the occasion of taxation
upon others for that which he believed aid they did not
believe. When he mentioned an educational rate, he
trusted it would not seem to be an enterprise involved
in expense which a flatten like this ought to gruage. The
beet calculation which had been made proved that in the
county of Lancaster twopence in the pound would be
sufficient for the erection of all the schools which might
be required for the whole of the children of that county,
and he believed we were paying directly as much now
as we need pay for a complete system of national edu-
cation. But we could not do better than take the expe-
rience of America upon this matter. He held in his
hand a report signed by Mr. Henry Barnard, a com-
missioner appointed by Rhode Island in 1846, to com-
pare the different modes of public education throughout
the various states of the Union. And he stated in re-
ference to places where the system had been carried out
to completion, that whilst it gave a good education it
had diminished the expense ot both public and private
instruction. Tho resolution which he (Mr. Fox) now
submitted to the House asserted the desirableness of local
government as well as of local taxation for the support
of these schools; and he believed that by this means
facilities would be given for preventing some of the evils
which were frequently anticipated as connected with the
introduction of a new system. Ho was desirous of effect-
ing the separation of secular and theological instruction;
but it should be recollected that the separation or anni-
hilation of either of these modes was a totally different
thing. What he wished was that the schoolmaster should
fulfil his work of secular instruction, and thus prepare
and expand the mind for that religious training which
then the minister of the chapel or the clergyman of the
parish might bestow, and which he only could bestow
with efficiency. Religion required an intellectual atmos-
phere, and other faculties were to bo trained besides
those which were to be exercised in the reception of re-
ligious truths and principles; and therefore the advo-
cates of secular instruction were, in fact, rendering much
more important service towards a religious education
than were those who made the appearance of the one
the sole object of their instruction, and threw the other
into comparative disregard. He contended, then, that
they were bound to separate secular and religious in-
struction, or, without it, there was no chance
whatever of a general education in this country.
They could produce no combination but upon
this system. And was it wholesome that chil-
dren should be trained up from their earliest
youth within-the lines of sectarian demarcation? Was it
no good to them in after life to look back to
fellows—to remember the impressions which
made, and to have some better opinion of those who dif-
fered
have
if the
they
them
had uponbeta
keptreligious couldthewirersechtrein-
oue t
a mixed religious
or coherence in the present system of
separate prints,
and atphaarnt ontthey
aye
of their religious differences? There was n. o connexion
ear the
ndsecAultabraninasstirauu Creed
instruction, "rha
witht ffi
the multiplication table,
. had the Apostles'
for instance? Why, they were treated by themselves as
a
perfectly distinct in their own proceedings; for there
was a minute of Council which instructed the inspectors,
as to certain schools, to report only upon the secular, and
nut upon the religious instruction. Did not this at OLCO
destroy the theory cf _ their being indiesoluble, or there
'being any advantage in so blending them together that
the onecould not be separated from the other? Besides,
relieiuus education had been to a certain extent provided-
and
the voluntary principle would do that, both in the Es-
tablished Church and in the Dissenting community, But

he would not say the voluntary principle in the Esta-
blished Church, because it was the bounden duty of the
clergyman to attend to the religion of the children as well
as the adults ; and let the work be well done by the
clergyman, where was the necessity for the inter-
ference of the schoolmaster in the teaching of religion?
He was urging nothing new or unheard of, or for which
he had not the sanction of authority. In au episcopal
charge delivered two years ago in St. Peters, the Bishop,
in commenting upon the question of education, observed
that however valuable masters of schools might be in
other respects, they seldom found them possessed of
ability to communicate real religion; that the doctrines
which led to practical godliness must be inculcated by
those whose office it was to expound the Bible; that the
literary character ef the school might depend on the
master, but the religious character must depend on the
clergy. The separation of religious and secular educa-
tion was in fact acted on in practice in all scholastic
establishments, such as the Royal Naval School and
others, over which the Government had control,
,just as
it would be in the schools which he proposed. It was
only when they considered instruction in a charitable
point of view that they gave the preponderance to reli-
gious teaching. The Bible was not a book which should
be given into the hands of poor ignorant children for the
purpose of teaching them to read. Such was the
opinion of Dr. Hook—an opinion which was sustained by
the authority of one of the most eminent men this coun-
try ever produced, whose philosophy was as beneficent
as his eloquence was brilliant, and whose piety
was as unquestionable as his mighty talent—he meant
Edmund Burke—who, in a speech delivered some eighty
years ago in this House, in the year 1772, observed
that the Bible was no summary of doctrines regularly
digested, but a venerable and multifarious record of Di-
vide promises. Such a book was not therefore the only
fit and suitable ,work to be entrusted to the compara-
tively uninformed schoolmaster for the teaching of the
ignorant children under his charge. They had all expe-
rience of that in thio country, for it bad not been so ef-
fectual a barrier against criminality as had been sup-
posed. For twelve consecutive years the criminal tables
showed an increase of criminality in the imperfectly
educated. Such tables tested the value of sound instruc-
tion by a constantly diminishing ratio in the per-tentage
of criminals well taught; they showed a constantly dimi-
nishing ratio in the per-centage not taught at all, but a
constantly increasing ratio in the imperfectly taught.
The decrease in the former was 33 5-10 to 31 5-10 per
cent., while the increase in the latter was from 53 1-10
to 59 5.10 percent. Religious teaching failed, in fact,
because it was not sufficiently combined with secular
education. The Irish national schools were much better
conducted in respect to the separation of theological
from secular instruction than the schools in this coun-
try. There was a larger portion of the secular element
in the instruction given, and the faculties of the children
were, therefore, more fully developed. The result
was, that from 1845 to 1849 (the years to which the re-
turns he had got applied), the number of those com-
mitted who could read and write, instead of increasing,
a 3 in this country, decreased from 26 3-10 per cent. of
the whole criminal population in the first-named year,
to 17 6-10 per c,nt. in 1849 ; whilst the number of
criminals who could neither read nor write increased in
a corresponding propertion—a result exactly the re-
verse of what took place in this country. In the re-
port of the inspector of the Lancashire Sunday schools,
analogous results were traced, which proved that Sun-
day-school teaching required something in addition to
its ordinary character to render it efficacious. It was
necessary to do something, es the voluntary system did
not meet the emergency, sad was not capable of exten-
sion so as to meta it. If, therefore, not on the ground
of preference, at least on the ground of necessity, they
were thrown back on some such plan as that contained
in the proposition he should submit to the House, that
conviction was growing end spreading throughout the
country, especially among thos whose cooperation was
necessary to the success of a general system of educa-
tion by the working classes. A number of such schools
had already been established in London, where the edu-
cation, according to the judgment of Mr. Mosley, 'the
inspector of the British Weslyan denominational schools,
was of a high order. The same gentl man also spoke of
the great and growing attention which this educational
problem excited amongst the great mercantile aid ma-
nufacturing interests of the North, and he added that he
hal been invited to inspect most superior educational
institutions which had risen out of the efforts of the
working classes, aided by their employers, to elevate
themselves in the 'smile of intelligence. He thanked the
House for iti attention, and he had only to say that at
the present time, amidst the conflicts of political parties
—amidst the collision of rival churches and hierarchies
—amidst the suite of sects, and the war of different
classes, systems, and interests—amidst the collision of
their various systems of policy, whether commercial or
constitutional—amidst the competition of nations and
the development of industrial and artistic energies,
nothing could better engage the attention of the Legis-
lature than building up an educational fabric of national
greatness and prosperity, founded on the broad basis of
national intelligence. The Hon. Gentleman concluded
with the motion of which he had given notice:—" That
it is expedient to promote the education of the people in
England and Wales, by the establishment of free schools
for secular instruction, to be supported by local rates,
and managed by committees, elected specially for that
purpose by the ratepayers."
Sir G. GREY said the Hon. Gentleman had begun
his speech by referring to some observations made
by the First Lord of the Treasury on the subject of
education out of that House, and from them he anti.
cipated that though the Government might not concur
with him in the proposition expressed in his resolution,
it would not be met by them in an obstructive spirit.
He assured the Honourable Gentleman, though he could
not consent to his resolution in the form in which
it was expressed, he should not meet in a spirit of
opposition any attempt that might be made to extend
the means of sound and useful education amongst the
children of the great body of the people of this kingdom;
and still less would he oppose any attempt to draw the
different classes together, with a view to combining the
different religious denominations in the promotion of
that important subject. He did not dispute that there
were great ceficiencies in their present educational sys-
tem, and which were inherent in that system, as applied
to the great body of the people. But he must also re-
mind the Reuse of the great increase which had of late
taken place in the means of education among the lower
clases—an increase not only in the number of the
schools, but also in the improved condition of the
teachers, their qualifications for the discharge of their
duties, and the improved character of the education im-
parted. He admitted, at the same time, that much re-
mained to be done; but they were now asked to assent
to the proposition that it is expedient to promote the
education of the people of England and Wales by the
establishment of tree schools for secular instruction, to
be supported by local rates, and managed by com-
mittees elected for that purpose by the ratepayers.
So far as the application of local rates to supply
existing deficiencies in education, he was not prepared
to differ with the Hon. Gentleman. There could be
no reasonable distinction drawn between the applica-
tion of local rates and the appropriation of a portion
of the general taxation of the country to the pro-
motion of education; and there might be advan-
tages from local management, provided efficient in-
inspection of the schools were secured. To that part of
the plan he had no objection; but he must hesitate be-
fore adopting a resolution on the expediency of enforcing
a system of local rates for the purpose, because the eir-
, cumstances of the different parts of the country were so
essentially dissimilar, that though the system might be
applicable to the country generally, it would not apply
universally ,o all parts. They had a precedent in allow-
ing a portion of the local rates for baths and wash-
houses, and in a Bill now before the House, for apply-
ing part of ;be local rates to provide better dwellings
for the poor. If they might be applied, then, to the
improvement of the moral, social, and physical condi-
tion of the poor, there could be no objection to their
application :n the advancement of the more important
object of mind education. But everything depended
on what the character of that education was to be; and
he was bound to say he felt the same insuperable objec-
tion to the terms of the resolution that he did to the
Honourable Gentleman's Bill of last year, which the
House had rejected, on the discussion of the second
reading, by a very large majority. His objection was,
that the principle of the Honourable Gentleman's motion
was that the application of the local funds should be
limited to the promotion of secular education, from which
religious education should be excluded altogether.
Such schools would, if they succeeded, supersede those
now in existence. The Hon. Gentleman said it was not
fair to call-on parties to support any system of religi-
ous edacatien of which they did not approve ; but the
it
Hon. Gentleman did not get rid of a similar objection
by his plan of applying the rates, whether local or
here
gene-
ral, to the ptrposes of secular education only; for
were large nimbers who contributed to the rates who
regarded the communication of religious instruction
along with secular education as indispensable. Besides,
m
it should be remembered that the frequenters
of poor
schools had nowhere else to obtain religiousl instruction,
of i
fs e for
when
thee n whereas the students in seminaries and colee
better classes had other sources for religiousi instruction,
while they were usually arrived at a time
the religious impressions and
formed; whereas, for the nions were already
formed;communication of catecheticaly
instruction the children of the poor could not be got to
frequent thechurch, and if they were to exclude from
their schools the practice of the reading of the Word of
God, they would deprive them of their only source of
religions instruction. That was the principle of the Hon.
Gentleman's present proposition, and of his Bill
year, to wheel he had then objected and still objected;
and the repetition of that proposition now must meet
with the sane opposition from the Government that it
had last year. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the
Irish named schools; but according to the Hon.
Gentleman's proposition these schools would be absolutely
deprived of participation in the local rates. The Hon.
Gentleman had also referred to the opinion of Dr. Hook;
but Dr. Hook had never expressed an opinion hostile
to the reading of the Bible in schools
with a view to
religious instruction; but the Reverend Gentleman
thought it ought not to be used in schools for the
mere purpose of teaching children to read. He (Sir G.
Grey) doubted, too, if they really could prevent a
schoolmaster, fully conscious of his responsibility, from
conveying religious instruction to the children com-
mitted to his rare. The Hon. Gentleman had taken cc-
casien to allude to what he called the rival plan devised
at Manchester. Some time back Mr. Entwistle and
some other gentlemen submitted to him the heads of a
system of education to be appliceble principally, if not
solely, to the very populous districts of Manchester end
Salford, and stated that they meant to propose a Bile
to
Parliament for the purpose not tells session, as there
would not be time, but next session. The scheme was
based on the combination of the representativesi3,of dif-
ferent religious denominations in theselastr4 wdehicth wereriet
the system to be supported out of the r
to be applicable to the maintenance of existing
denomi-
school
i which religion was taught. Every religious

nation was represented on the it committee, and not-
withstanding the otjections of some Roman Catholic
priests,the Roman Cethelie laymen remaieed on the
,
committee, and the committee did not despair of devi-
sing means of including the Roman Catholics. It was
expected, too, they would tie able to include Leeds in its
operation, and with the probability of such a scheme
succeeding it would be most inexpedient to affirm a re-
solution which would exclude religious instruction from
secular education. He trusted that the system he re-
ferred to would he brought forward successfully, and
that it rsould be the means for augmentiog the means of
education and of combining the uifferent classes of the
cemmumty in one comenot_ effort for that laudable object.
Mr. HUME said the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
forget the great point at issue, the necessity of a general
education for the poorer classes of the country. As the
Hon. Member for Oldham bed shown the clear con-
nexion between ignerauco end crime, it behoved the
Government to attend to the auestion. The Right Hon.
Baronet said it was impossible to deal with the question;
but it was done in the United States with the greatest
success. He (Mr. Hume) agreed with his Hon. Friend
that it was the duty of the country to educate the poorer
classes for their respective conditions in life; and also
that it should be at the cost of the State. In Ireland the
Catholic priests objected to education without religion--
hence the godless colleges; while the Right Hon. Baronet
said that he could not agree to any education that was
purely secular and unconnected with the teaching of
true religion; but there were upwards of twenty sects in
England, each of them teaching a d,fferent faith. Who
was to say which was the true religion? In the United
States the villages of 50 individuals were obliged to main-
tain a school for six months, while those of 100 were
obliged to maintain one a year. This was done without
religious difference, because religion was excluded from
them, and the children brought up alone in a know'
ledge of their duties to society. Were the citizens
of the United States less moral or less intelligent than
those of England? The example of the Americans, at
least in this instance, should be looked to. They were
bringing up a moral, virtuous generation of citizens,
capable of fulfilling all their duties; while in England the
cliff rent sects were quarrelling about who should have a
monopoly of the education of the people. His Ha'
Friend did not desire to set religious instruction aside;
on the contrary, he desired to fit the youthful mind for
its due reception. It was a duty specially worthy of
senate to legislate upon this subject; and it was a dis-
grace to England, rich, powerful, and populous, that
there should be such an amount of crime co-existent
and arising, as was proved, entirely out of the ignorance
of that class which should be the best support of the
State. The present system created the most serious
difference between the several classes of the community;
the contrary one produced the best effects on the United
States—Massachusetts, for instance, where the children
of the poor were educated at the expense of the State.
In Edinburgh the result of an inquiry instituted into the
anted dents of five huusired prisoners proved that crime
was transmitted from generation to generation in man/
families, because of the ignorance and neglect in which
they bad been left. He therefore called en
men of property to consider whether it would
not be better to adopt the system of his Hon. Friend,
and by increasing education reduce the amount of crime.
lie hailed the Lancashire plan of education with great
satisfaction; and if that could be carried out his Hon.
Friend would be satisfied. Each parish should have the
pop er of rating itself, for the support of the schools, as
the parishes already had for baths and washhousee.
Under these circumstances he hoped the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, who with his family had
always been the great supporters of education, would not
allow himself to be diverted by trivial diff-rences, but
would take the broad course. Surely Englishmen
might do that which was done in this matter by Ante"
mans.
Mr. A. B. HOPE should oppose the motion, because
he was desirous of giving all creeds the most perfect
libe; ty of action. The resolution of the Hon. Member
for Oldham was, in his opinion, one more fraught with
danger
,to the principle of religious hberty than, perhaps,
any other that had ever been laid before Parliament.
If a purely secular education could be given, he (Mr.
Hope) would not object to it; but that was impossible
by the very laws of nature,—(elear, bear.) It dogmatic
religion was not taught in the schools under this
system of the Hon. Member, some religion would neces-
sarily be taught, if it was none other than the negation
of all faith. The Hon. Gentleman asked what had the
multiplication table to do with religion, and last year
he had asked what had religion to do with the enjoyment
of the beauties of nature; but to be taught anything a
child should be taught to trace things to their rudi-
meets, and how, in that case, could a knowledge of the
Supreme Being be shut out from his mind? Whether
the most elementary education was imparted, therefore,
or the moat scientific, the result was identical. At the
very loss est, these schools would have, consequently, to
teach Deism or Atheism. A compulsory system of edu•
cation was instituted by the motion, and a scheme set
up side by side with the established religion which
taught these, and from which the poor could not escape.
Therefore it was that he (Mr. 11.) considered the scheme
of the Hon. Member as so fraught with danger; and on
this ground, as well as upon many others which he
should not trouble the House to detail, he should oppose
the motion. He was at one with the Hon. Gentle-
man in his wish to improve the moral condition of
the people of this country; but he could not see why
the Anglo-Saxon principle of decentralization, which
had Leen adopted in trade and all other
matters, should not be allowed freely to exist in the
matter of education. Either religious toleration should
be abolished, and a compulsory religion enforced as
well as a compulsory education; or education in respect
of religion should be loft perfectly free. He had no
objection to its being made as free as possible, nor would
he oppose taxation for the purpose; but he was of
opinion that the only way to obtain a national system
was to distribute the amount contributed by the State,
in the ratio of their wants, among the several religious
denominations of the country. He was for the adoption
of a system analogous to that of the London University,
and he was opposed to the gigantic scheme which it
proposed of centralisation.
Colonel THOMPSON said the Hon. Gentleman had
overlooked the fact that there were different eAablish-
ments for each denomination of Dissenters. Was there
no way of getting rid of the great obstacle to a general
education presented by religious difference? Why
should not an hour a day be assigned for religious in-
struction? Why should the religious question be forced
on public education? It was not mixed up with private
education. Bays and girls could learn French or Italian
without it; why not the poor learn as well the art of
reading? He thought the various sects were afraid of
the spread of human knowledge, The State should take
advantage of it.
Mr. TRELAWNY denied the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Maidstone, that not to teach religion was e
negation of religion. He contended that education, as a
mains of repressing crime, should be adopted by the
State as;well as any other mode of repressing it. The
amount expended on the punishment of criminals at
the present moment was enormous; and it behoved the
country to take up the subject. He could not compre-
hend the course of the Noble Lord in demanding an-
nually such a miserable pittance as 150,0001. for educa-
tion. If education was worth anything, it was worth
more than that. Education would have put an end to
the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill; and he believed, if the Go-
vcanment asked for such a sum as would give a good
general education to the poor, that Parliament would not
refuse it, notwithstanding the selfish opposition of the
middle classes to taxation, Sur far as he (Mr. Trelawny )
1413 concerned, there was no sacrifice which he was not
prepared to make on the subject.
Mr. W. PATTEN agreed with the Hon. Member for
Montrose as to the necessity for education at the public
expense; but in his own county, as well as throughout
the country generally, a falae step would be taken, and
education net founded on religion. He believed that
there was a strong feeling in the country at large that
religion should be combined with education; it was 80 in
Lancashire, where great efforts were made to educate
the people, and where those succeeded best which were
based upon religion. If no other plan of education suc-
ceeded, ho might, perhaps, support that of the Hon.
Member; but until all those in process failed, he should
oppose the motion of the Hon. Member. He was of opi-
nion that the scheme now in agitation in Manchester, al-
luded to by his Right Mon. Friend, was the one best
adapted for the country; and though he admitted the
maintainedpo-
swchaesmwehlagereatreluc
tauthat thisowe
however,
squall
po-
pularity
poofpulag. the
rival
heLivro.teAdtaGgaiiansstorNhe
Braei d
the elution.
fi
rst part of the speech of
the Right lion. Gentleman gave him great hopes that
the Government were favourable to to the Lancashire
scheme of education, The he part
favourable
twhehiperhinhceiple of a rate. Elethd
s peech
to
bo
was that which re-
ferred
general system of rates couelodudb
whether a Hon.ted , Member'sho e.ver
but then, if established, they must not be beenoesmtainbalitsiohnedai
or sectarian
rates. If such kind of rates were adopted,
the result would be that a special majority would be able
to enforce on
the minority of their fellow.parishioners
that system of religious teaching to which the minority
alight he opposed. If then such a system wore en-
I forced, it would put the whole country into a reli-
gious conflict. But if rates were to be levied
without refereece to religious denomination, it did not
necessarily follow that the schools would be irreli-
gious schools, as they had been termed. This plan was
to give elementary instruction, and to set apart a special
separate time for teaching religious matters. It ap-
peared to him that the mere giving of primary instruc-
tion was so good in itself that it could not fail of pro-
ducing great moral effects. He had doubts of the pro-
priey of allowing schoolmasters to be also religious
teachers. From what he had been informed, h© was
inclined to doubt whether Ministers were tho proper par-
ties to have the controlling power over the religious
studies of children. In a speech delivered by the Rev.
F. Grose at a public meeting, it was asserted that the
more a man advanced in knowledge the more he receded
from religion. Now ho differed from the sentiments of
the Rev. Gentleman—on the contrary, he belived the
more that a man was taught, the more likely he was to
become religious and motel. The Rev. Gentleman fur-
ther said, we ought to weave Church of England or
Evangelical principles with education. If we separated
secular and religious education, we should separate what
God had joined together. Now, he was sure the people
of England would never agree to a system of public,
rating, when they saw what clergymen proposed to do
with the money if they got it, mid the system of secta-
set:yeproposedsecular
educationto
n establish.i3 ogi
ELI
Holland,
and It-ITe
operationuca tio notfh
and other countries, and he defied any one to say those
countries were less moral than England. It was not
right to throw on the supporters of his Hon. Frie,nd's
plan the charge of a desire to give education without
re
ligio n; the object his Hon. Friend bad was to give
port it.
useful acular instruction, and he should therefore sup-

Mr• WIGRAM said the growing interest in the sub-
ject showed that the real question was not, whether edu-