The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-24 00:00:00

mission was issued in consequence of an address from the
' - Honse of Commons to his Majesty in 1824. This last corn-
. mission has led to ,nine reports.' So that you have now 23
reportt on the subject of education in Ireland. I will pre-
sent
up a large folio volume) is one. (Peals of laughter.) Per-
haps you think that these reports do not enter into suffi-
cient details. Now, if ever a book was incumbered with
details in quantity sufficient to afford the fullest information
to the greatest statist that ever lived, this book which I
. hold in my hand is one well calculated to satisfy the most
, . ravenous appetite for statistical information. (Hear, hear,
and laughter.) It contains an account of every school in
Ireland, of the barony in Which it is situate, of the diocese
to which the barony belongs, and the name of the town-
land or place to which it belongs. (A laugh.) It is going
a long way in point of information to give the name of
the master and mistress of every school in Ireland, and
Yet this information you have in these reports. (Laughter. )
t ,• Nay, more, 'under the next head you have information
..- .. whether the tehhol be a day-school or a free-school ; then
youhave an account of the income of the master or mis-
tress ; and next you have a very exact and minute descrip-
tion of the school-house. (Cheers and laughter) This
' volume contains 1,333 pages, and I will take one instance
• out of it—the school at Ballybay And yet ' our trusty
and well-beloved Thomas Doyley, sergeant-at-law,' with
`, ten learned coadjutors, is to be sent to examine into the
'.' state of this school. (A laugh.) The entry states that
''i the school of Ballvbay is in the diocese of Clogher, in the
townland of Clogher. The name of the master of the
school is Riley. His religion is Protestant. His average in-
come is 11/. 3s. The school-house is a thatched house,
(A laugh) ; it has a clay floor ( Laughter continued); and it
cost 6/. 14s. Among the scholars there are 15 Protestants
of the church of Ireland, 36 Presbyterians, and 13 Roman
Catholics. That, be it observed, is the Protestant return;
but to check it a Catholic return was also sent in, and it
‘‘st states the Protestant scholars of the church of Ireland to
~. be 12, the Presbyterians to be 56, and the Roman Catholics
• ' to be 26. Bet.this is not all—the number of males is stated
et 50,-and of females at 40. It is assisted by the Hibernian
Society in Sackville-street. The Scriptures are read in it,
and in the authorised version. Here is information in abun-
dance respecting the school of Ballybay, and information of .
this kind respecting every school in the country is at this
moment in your possession. (Hear, hear;) You next say
that you want information as to the state and value of the
benefices in Ireland. You have three commissions now in
Ireland making inquiries into that point. In the first year
of his present Majesty's reign you issued a commission to
inquire into the state of the several parochial benefices in
the respective dioceses in Ireland ; first, whether they are
separate or united parishes ; secondly, what is the annual
value of the several parishes ; thirdly, the contiguity of the
[' several parishes in a union to each other ; fourthly, the fit-
v.. ness of dissolving such unions ; and lastly, the amount of
the salaries paid to curates. In the third year of the reign
of his present Majesty you issued another commission, and
' this is the recital of it—' Whereas we have thought it ex-
pedient, for divers good causes and considerations us there-
unto moving, that a full and correct inquiry should be
. forthwith made respecting the revenues and patronage be-
longing to the several archiepiscopal and episcopal sees in
I'' Ireland; to all cathedral and collegiate churches; to
all ecclesiastical benefices, inchiding donations, per-
petual curacies, and chapelries, with or without
cure of souls, and the names of the several pa-
trons thereof, and other circumstances therewith con-
nected.' In that' commission are the names of Lord
Plunket, the Duke of Leinster, the Marquis of Down-
shire, Lord Ormond, Sir Henry Parnell, and Sir John
Newport. Have you not then two commissions to supply
you with the information which you want on this subject?
But even this will not satisfy you, for in the last year you
instituted another commission, and you _passed an act
compelling a valuation of every living in -Ireland,—com-
pelling a valuation, in order that a tax might be levied
upon the living,—and compelling a return of that valuation
before the Ist of December, 1833. Moreover, you gave
to that commission by statute the power of administering
an oath to all persons who came before it. This com-
mission has not that power, but on the face of it, I ask for
what object is it issued ? (Loud cries of ' Hear.') If_
it be not for the sake of postponing the decision on this
• abject, which I say you are now competent to make, why
issue it ? (Immense cheering:) Can it be for the tran-
quillity of Ireland that you should keep a subject of this
kind in abeyance, and evade by every manoeuvre a decision
.1„ upon it ? (Hear, hear.) The question is in my mind
simply this :—Has Parliament—l will not say the legal
right, for who can deny that it has?—but has Parliament
the moral and equitable right to make this appropriation,
111. and is it safe.; in the present temper of the times, to set an
example to the pen le of confiscating the property of the
church ? ( Hear.) You say that now, at last, you speak out.
Sir, I deny that you speak out. (Immense cheering.) I say
that the opinions delivered bydifferent members of govern-
went on this subject are at variance with each other. ("Cheer-
ing continued.) Every opinion I have yet heard from them
leaves me in doubt as to the ultimate intention of the
King's Government ; and that being the case, I do not
see why you-should unsettle the tblintry to itt "core;' by
declaring that if you shall find hereafter that you have a
surplus beyond what is wanted to maintain the Pro-
testant church, you will devote it to other purposes.
Why not 'reserve that 'declaration until you have ascer-
tained the fact to which it is to apply . At one time you
say ' see our principle in our commission,' and at another
you exclaim ' wait till we declare it.' (Hear, hear.) My
right hon. friend opposite cheers me when I say that he
reserves to a future day the enunciation of his principle.
0 Why, has that not been the burden of his speech all
this evening ? (Hear, hear.) The noble lord, however,
says that if it should tarn out that there is a surplus, he
will devote it to moral and religious purposes. Then, the
noble lord must contest the right of Parliament to de-
vote it to merely secular purposes. (Lord Althorp, ' No.')
- What then is the meaning of the noble lord's saying that
he will devote it only to moral and religious purposes?
0 (Hear, hear.) How does this property of the church, I
would ask him, differ from other property, as for instance,
property possessed by corporations? If it differs from
other property, then I do not see why Parliament should
not have a control over it. I can understand the man who
tells me that he considers all property, as sacred. I can
understand the man also who says, ' If I can promote the
doctrines of the ' Gospel, I consider myself at liberty to
promote it by another distribution of the revenue of its
ministers than that which was originally contemplated.'
But I cannot understand the man who tells me that he
respects the right of property, and yet diverts the pro-
perty of the church from ecclesiastical purposes, to what
he is pleased to call, moral and religious purposes. (Hear,
hear.) I hope the house will bear with me, while I call
its attention to the extraordinary manner in which the
noble lord keeps perpettsplly shifting his ground. I can
understand the noble lord, -if he says that the revenues of
the church are given for religious purposes, and that he
will therefore apply them to the maintenance of the Ca-
tholic religion ; but—. No,' says the noble lord, ' the
object from which I would except the appropriation of the
revenues of the church, is the Catholic religion.' How
narrow, then, is the ground on which the noble lord takes
• his stand. Appropriate the revenues of the church to
New South Wales ? The noble lord says that ' it would
be little less than sacrilege to do so.' But if Parliament
has a right to appropriate the revenues of the cliurch at
all, why has it not a right to appropriate them, if it
pleases,_ to the benefit and improvement of New South
Wales? (Hear, hear.) I see that you gentlemen who
pride yourselves on speaking out, as you call it, do not
even understand the distinctions which you draw your-
sely"- ( Great cheering.) The noble lord in this honk,
and the Lord Chancellor in the other house of Parliament,
have excluded religion from the benefit of this appro-
priation. ' ' We have provided,' say they, ' for the Pres-
byterian religion, and have on principlewe excluded the
Catholic.' To what object then are you to appropriate the
property of the church ? lam speaking now of those
veio say that they speak out, and for my life Icannot un-
derstand them. (Immense cheering.) The noble lord
the member for Yorkshire, who speaks with great ability,
and always with mature deliberation (Hear, and a laueh;
said that he much doubted whether we had a right to ap-
propriate the surplus, supposingit to exist, to the purposes
of charity. The'nOble lord 9iis, ft appears, a lingering
respect tor the property of the church ; but, says he, if the
young men at Oxford makes riot in the theatre as a proof
of their attachinent 'to .the church (Opposition cheers),
I cannot respect church property any longer. (Hear,
and laughter. ) The noble lord is uncertain as to th' sur-
plus t 'but if there he a large surPlus, he is doubtful whether
we have a right to apply it to the purposes of charity. He
abjures the notion of appropriating it to the maintenance
of the•eatholie'religion. He will not do More than ap-
propriate it, for I took down the noble lord's words as he .
spoke them—he will not, I ity, 'appropriate it to moral,
spiritual, are! Christian consolation. ( A laugh. )
Lord MORPETH, s eking from the gallery, " One
word only ; I did not sayPeconsolation—l said edification."
(A *right lau 'h.)
SiR, pEtt,
strictly the called upon the house to observe how
I , fron.,...an_ pai-iieißoman. Catholic religion was to be excluded
Ireland. if ere be in the revenues of the church of
moral, spiri*al - an, stsurplus, it was to be confined to the
u Christian edification of the people of
that country: 'Now, the advantages to be derived from
this species of spoliation appeared
nsmt to
be to him to so small,
that he for one would not c
violate the principle
of prescription to. obtain them. (Loud cheers.) He would
not undermine the foundation of all property, in order, if
proper. there were an excess of church perry over the legiti-
mate wants of the church, to devote it to the moral, p.
ritual, and Christian edification of the people (Hear, hear,s-i-
-and a laugh), even though by that arrangement the Roman
Catholics were excluded from participating in it. Here was
a species of property resting on the prescription of 300
YaetatrU Chee"), the maintenance of which was decreed
gentlemeanni°° of the two kingdoms. (Cheers.) An hon.
there was .n
'in his speech the other night, had said that
time of the union such bar imposed upon Parliament at the
support of that pos•t•
as he (Sir Robert Peel) supposed. In
certain ministerl'al %on the hon. member had. referred to
Mr. Pitt, in which documents having the e,
signature of
the right was -asserted to
certain
claims which deal with
,
he (Sit R. Peel) affirmedwere
that the expressions of Mr. Pitt
had no reference whatever to the right of Parliament to

' deal with the property of the church, but had reference to
the necessity of reserving to Parliament the right of re-
moving the disabilitie that. eretiee of i Cee Catholics. To
prove that position lie stated that the liesti Parliament-had
sent over to this country certain resolutions as the condi-
tions on which they would assent to the union, and those
resolutions were confirmed by the Parliament of this
country, and sent back to Ireland. In those resolutions it
! was expressly stipulated that every right and privilege
which the church of Ireland had enjoyed before the union
should be preserved to it after the union. Now, under
the terms " rights and privileges" it appeared to him that
the right of the church to its property must have been in-
cluded. He had now stated sufficient reasons why they
should scrupulously abstain from interfering rashly with
the property of the Church. First, it was defended by
prescription ; next, by the stipulations made at the union
of the two kingdoms. If ministers had told him that they
had ascertained there was 1,000,000/. of surplus, so that a
splendid robbery might be committed, he could conceive
that some profligate men might imagine this a magnificent
prize, the attainment of which would form a ground, if
not an apology, for spoliation. But what were the facts of
the case? There were 2,450 parishes in Ireland, and 1,200
churches were now existing for the performance of the
observances of the Protestant religion. Was it meant to
abandon or maintain those churches ? Did they mean to
appropriate them to purposes, other than those for which
they were intended ? Deduct the lay advowsons, which
stood on quite a different footing from the rest, and it
could not be pretended to be the property of the state.
The right hon. gentleman appeared to admit that fact. It
was clear that such advowsons were possessed by Private
individuals, and that government had no right to appro-
priate them to the purposes of the state, whatever might
be asserted as to other ecclesiastical benefices. Now, if
he took the whole church property of Ireland, -after de-
ducting the expense of collection, and divided it equally
among all the parishes (a principle which he hoped never
to see adopted), the result would not be such as to indicate
any extravagant surplus, after making an adequate provi-
sion for the incumbents. He repeated, that he objected
altogether to the principle of an equal division of church
property—he did so because he wished to see the present
incentives to exertion continued, 'and because he conceived
it fitting that the clergy should be enabled to exercise an
appropriate influence, not only on the lower, but also on
the higher classes of society. (Hear, hear.) He saw no
reason why the spiritual profession should • be degraded
(Hear), and why there should not exist inducements
calculated to attract men of talent and attainments to
the church as well as to the bar and other professions.
(Hear, hear.) But if we adopted the principle of
equal distribution, he doubted whether it would give an
income of 300/. a year to each incumbent. The right
hon. gentleman seemed to rate the Irish church revenues
higher, and he said, if he found that they would give an
average to each benefice of 5001. a year, while in England
the average did not exceed 300/. a year, the difference
would afford a reason for diminishing the church revenues
in Ireland. He denied that a good reason for diminishing
the Irish revenues was afforded by this supposition. (Hear,
hear.) There might be good reasons for paying clergy-
men more in one country than in another, on account of
the privations which they must endure, and the other un-
favourable circumstances of their situation. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. and learned gentleman made a remark pregnant
with truth. He intimated that in these times revolutions
were not effected in centuries or years, but months. He
(Sir Robert Peel) was afraid that revolutions in opinion
did occur rather too rapidly, and the foundations of property
were sometimes hastily effected by them. It was on ac-
count of the revolutions which had occurred, or were
likely to take place, that he had called on his Majesty's
government to exert themselves to arrest the progress of
destructive opinions (hear, hear), and lead the public
mind by a positive declaration of their own. (Cheering.)
There would have been less danger in the government
declaring their opinion that a surplus did exist, and
they were prepared to appropriate it, but to pre-
serve the remainder, than in leaving the question open,
as they now did. God forbid that the government
should ever see reason to come to such a decision as he had
referred to with respect to a surplus, but even that might
be less dangerous than their present mode of dealing with
the Subject. He hoped that they would not on 'merely hy-
pothetical opinions consent to any appropriation. (Hear.)
Nothing could be more unwise than to raise a cry of
" church in danger" on fictitious grounds, because false
alarms produced distrust and negligence, and rendered
appeals vain when the period of actual danger arrived;
but when the noble lord told them that the church of Ire-
land was one of the greatest grievances of the country,
when the King's Government assented to the assertion,
and when the Dissenters required a separation between
Church and State, let not gentlemen scare us from the
performance of our duty,_ and let them not tell us that we
were not in danger. (Hear, hear.) We asked not the
removal of civil disabilities or religious penalties, but on
this ground we stood, we would protect the connection
between Church and State, and the integrity of church
property. (Loud and continued cheering.) If you told
him that Was novel doctrine, he said no; he spolie not of
the opinions entertained y Burke or men of his day,
or of the sentiments professed by individuals of his own
party, or of the notions that prevailed in an
unreformed Parliament ; but he referred to the
sentiments avowed by members of the present Govern-
meet, in reference to the Irish church. What would
the: house say to the opinions of Lord Grey on the subject ?
The noble lord had quoted his (Sir R. Peel's) sentiments,
and placed an erroneous construction upon them ; but he
was ready to abide by the opinions he qad expressed. He
was ready to eoreeet the abuses of the Church, and pro-
mote, by. every means in his power, the expansion and
maintenance of the Protestant religion in Ireland ( Cheers);
and if they showed him any mode by which men whoreally
wished well to the Church intended to appropriate a share
of its funds for purposes directly connected with the ex-
tension
of revealed truth, according to the doctrines of the
Protestant church in Ireland, he would be ready to agree
to such an appropriation, but only in reference to strictly
ecclesiastical purposes, and those connected with the Es-
tablished Church. (Hear, hear.) In February, 1832,
Earl Grey presented a petition from the inhabitants and
landowners in Rathclaren, praying for the abolition of
tithes and church rates, and that the church lands might
be resumed and disposed of for objeCts of common interest
to all the inhabitants of the realm. He presented the pe-
tition as a peer, and in that capacity only. He, however,
need scarcely state to their lordships, not only that he did
not approve of such a measure as the petitioners recom-
mended, but that if a project of that nature were pro-
posed by any one, it should receive from him the most de-
cided and determined opposition. He saw the urgency
of effecting some improvement in the mode of making
provision for the clergy in Ireland ; but he would unequi-
vocally state, that he never could think of making any
such improvement in the modes of providing for the clergy
without fully securing to the church its just rights. (Loud
cheers.) Were these the sentiments maintained by the
King's ministers ? (Cheering.) What did Lord Plunket
say in a speech delivered on the same subject?—" Obscure
and humble individuals in Ireland might entertain the ex-
travagant notion that the Government of this country was
not unwilling to sacrifice the rights of her church. That
such persons, looking at their station in life, might enter-
tain such opinions, was not very surprising—in them,
perhaps, it was excusable. But it was a very different
matter when suspicions of this nature were cherished and
were disseminated by persons of high rank and influence
in society." (Cheers.) What was the report made by the
tithe commtitee, of which the Marquis of Lansdowne was
chair Man? On what Conditions had he (Sir R. Peel)
been invited to accede to measures of church reform ?
Those questions would be best answered by a reference to
the reports of the Lords' Committee, and to a apeech de-
livered by Lord Lansdowne in March, 1832. The report
stated—" That with a view both to secure the interests of
this church, and the lasting welfare of Ireland, a permanent'
change of system will be required ; that such a change, to
be satisfactory and safe, must involve a complete extinction
of tithes, by commuting them for a charge upon land, or
an exchange for an investment of land, so as effectually
to 'secure the revenues of the church (as far as relates
to tithes), and at the same time to remove all pecuniary
collision between the parochial clergy and the occupier of
land." The second report had this paragraph— The
clergy are thus, in too many instances, deprived of that '
just and beneficial influence which their general conduct '
and habits so well qualify them to exercise, even over per-
sons of a different religious persuasion ; that for the pur- '
re oftnse
should
oth,ifacilityled
church,be toee ffniertct
et
exchangeuea
nhidnvg
government
fNt.me r landn investments sef
noi nrt
tithes,a nf"
allg it hvei
stampsnbge.ng:fie at
enabled to make advances to lanrdlionrds.", Lord Lansdowne,
:117kinrindsg}upotnnrtehneonsannmei.n,stubtjhencste,-msanidd;s:b‘nyFtartbaenhitt firn.omsommee,
beinsg
places, the tithe has been removed
spoliation, and without an equivalent principle
ItPolet;':ef
church to which it belonged, and 1 only allude to the mo-
difications which have taken place for the purpose of shw
ing;that wherever the tax had been in pperatien it has
been dealt with according to the circumstances of the
couiatry. • In some places, as I have said, the church has
been spoliated of its property, but this is an example to be
avoided and not to be imitated. It is impossible for your
lordships not to see in what an independent condition the
clergyman will be placed by a commutation of tithes, as
compared with the mode in which he receives his income
under the present system. It gives me great pleasure, as
the organ of the committee, to move resolutions of which
this was the last—'that it is the opinion of this house, that
with a vieW to secure both the interests of the church,and the
lasting welfare of Ireland, a permanent change of sys-
teni will be required, and, that such a
,change, to be sa-
tisfaction and' secure, Inuit involve a complete ex- ,
tinction of tithes, including those belonging to lay
impropriators, by commuting them for a charge upon land,
or are exchange'for, or an investment in, land.'" These
were the opinions of meml)ers of the Government in, 1832.
If thexihad,since changed their opinions, he was not. the
man te,degar•thein from the right of reconsidering their
previimrsaiiinents, but it was right that they should
fairlyjtatifilieogiounds of the alteration. Such, however,
,hancnc.orfrdiiiel
wele-til"iltragatk2 r;igadima-made.
thoughtte rs ii by itaaie of hiOhjeSty's Minis-
gndtointhaededencnlartahteionhuwsthiniegsh he
t
Cambridge, it seemed to him that his right hon. friend ex-

chided the idea of the appropriatio of church property
except for purposes connected with the church. He com-
plained that Ministers had unsettled the minds of men as to
their ultimate object. In November next this property
must be collected, eiflier by the church, or the Govern-
, ment. What was then to he done ? The difffciflty you
might have to contend with would have been obviated by a
declaration in defence of church property, and the expres-
sion of your determination to abide by the principle. When
you said that you might hereafter change your opinions,
and appropriate the surplus to other purposes, men would
naturally say, " we were content to abide by the laws
which protect and recognize your property, but if you give
them up, and go the length of spoliation as regards the
church, wesee no harm in following your example in other
matters." (Hear, hear.) Church property was protected
by law, by prescription, by positive stipulation ; and if evils
should now ensue, and difficulties arise in its collection, he
held the King's overnment chargeable for the despoliation
or injury it *light sustain,' and for all the results of their
present crime. (Loud and continued cheering. )
Lord J. RUSSELL said that two accusations of an
opposite naturehad been brought against the Government.
It was alleged in the first place that it ought not to have
exposed its intentions owe question of such delicacy and
importance ; and secondlV, that it should' have spoken out
with more decision. Now, without setting one of these
objections against the other with a view to answering them
in that way, he must say that it was impossible for Go-
vernment to come to a conclusion as to the appointment of
a commission, without looking before appointing it at the
possible or probable consequences of its report, and mak-
ing up their minds, if a certain result took place, not to
shrink from the consequences, but propose a particular ap-
propriation, such as theg might think advisable. (Hear,
hear.) It was the' necessity of looking that question in
the face which caused the late separation in the Govern-
ment, and it was the resolution to consider the question of
appropriation, when the commission now appointed en-
abled them to do so on proper grounds, that constituted
the foundation of their present agreement. (Cheers. ) It
was asked what reason was there for the appointment of
the commission? The answer was obvious—in order to
obtain the information necessary to enable the Government
to make up their minds on the subject. His reason for
making the speech which had been referred to consisted in
the pain he felt at our being obliged to conduct the govern-
ment of Ireland by measures such as it had been necessary
to carry. On that occasion he did not say, as the right
hon. gentleman supposed, that the church of Ireland was
the greatest grievance that any country had ever suffered—
so far from it, he stated that he thought the revenues of
the church ought to be reduced, because theyi were too
great for its stability ; thereby implying that he desired
and contemplated, by means of the measures to be adopted,
the future stability of the church. (Hear, hear.) What
was the passage which the right honourable gentleman had
misquoted? He said that the complaint of the people of
Ireland against the appropriation of the church revenues
was as just a complaint as any people ever made. That
was his opinion then and now—he had seen no reason to
alter it. (Hear, hear.) That was his reason for concur-
ring heartily and cordially in the appointment of a com-
mission. (Hear, hear.) We had seen Tory governments
passing insurrection acts ; we ourselves had been obliged
to adopt severe and unusual measures; and if it were pain-
ful to any statesman to propose measures of an unconstitu-
tional character, such measures must be peculiarly abhor-
rent to those who'prided themselves in the name of Whigs.
(Loud laughter from the opposition, followed by cheering
from the ministerial benches.) Not only had Tory and
Whig governments proposed such measures in turn, but
the hon. and learned gentleman opposite showed himself
willing last year to agree to many severe clauses in the
protection bill, which were rendered necessary by the sys-
tem of maraudieg and outrage daily and nightly prevalent
in Ireland. While for temporary purposes such measures
might be necessary with a view to the security of peace,
life, and property, it was the duty of government to look
deeper into the causes of the' long standing and perpe-
tuated evils of that country. (Cheers.) It was their duty
to consider, that while there existed an affluent church on
one side, there were wanting on tie other the means of
moral control, which might guide the conduct and affect
the behaviour of the people. In reference to these causes,
he would endeavour, first by inquiry, and afterwards by ap-
propriate measures, not merely to proiide a temporary re-
medy for the evil, but to found some system by _which
future governments might be relieved from acts of coer-
cion, and by mewls of which the affections of the people of
Ireland should be conciliated in favour of government and
law. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord here read a paper
drawn up during the Duke of Bedford's government of
Ireland by Messrs. Grattan, Ponsonby, and Curran, which
ascribed the disturbances and insurrections of that country
to the evils of the tithe system, which the document de-
scribed as requiring a permanent remedy. If that opi-
nion had been listened to in 1807, and a measure of per-
manent commutation of tithes had been effected, what
evils might we not have avoided—what contests might
we not have been spared ! (Hear, hear.) But the Go-
verninent which
_succeeded the Whigs in 1807, se fax.
from providing a remedy for tithes, employed itself in
raising the "no Popery" clamour, and the original evil
continued the source of renewed and augmenting irrita-
tion. Now it was made matter of reproach to to the' Go-
vernment that they endeavoured by means of inquiry, and
measures to be founded on it, to repair the faults of for-
mer Ministers, and, if possible, retrieve the evils that
cruel misgovernment had created. ( Hear, hear.) The
right hon. gentleman asked what effects the commission
was to produce? He would mention one effect which it
had already produced on the speech of the member for
the University of Dublin. During the last year and
a half the house had heard the honourable mem-
ber discourse on the vast increase of Protestantism in
Ireland, and inform them that it was only necessary to
build churches in order to fill them, and that the nominal
majority of Catholics in Cork and other places spoken of
by the hon. and learned member for Dublin was all a mis.
take ; but now, no sooner was the commission appointed,
than the hon. member for the University of Dublin said,
" Do you want facts ?—I am ready to' admit your facts."
(Hear, and laughter.) It was no inconsiderable point
gained with him if, after hearing certain questions dis-
puted by the hon. members for Dublin and the Univer-
sity, till his mind remained almost in a state of abeyance
between their conflicting arguments and evidence-.-it was
no trifling matter if, after all, the commission having hardly
met to lay down its course of proceeding, one of those an_
tagonists came down to the house and said, in his usual
manly and straightforward manner, " Don't mind what
I have been telling, you about the increase of Protestant..
ism for the last year and a half. I admit your facts."
(Cheers and laughter.) But he was not satisfied with
this admission, be wanted facts established by the best
evidence that could be procured on the spot. He thought
that the inquiry could take no long time, perhaps not longer
than till the next .session. (Hear, hear.) He wished to
ascertain the number of persons belonging to the Esta-
blished Church, the number attending divine service, and
the gAvth and increase of the Established Church of late
years. With respect to the great principle involved in
the present question, he would state as clearly as he could
his opinion to the house. He considered a part of the
funds of the church were intended, and might be properly
devoted to the purposes of moral and religious instruction.
Not less than four prelates of the establishment had re-
cently published charges on, the subject.. He found them
all concurring in this point—that the main use, if not the
greatest use of all, of the Established Church, was the
religious instruction of the poor. Now admitting, as he
most fully did, that their.defence of the Church of Eng-
land on that ground was solid and perfect, and being ready
on the same ground to defend the Church of England as
far as his humble powers would permit him to do so,
he must say that when he turned to Ireland and inquired
what was meant in that country by the religious instruction
of the poor, it was a very bad answer to point out a
parish containing 1,000 or 2,000 inhabitants, in one
corner of which might be found a single Protestant
family. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Such being the case, he was
obliged to ask, with reference to the revenue of the Irish
Church, whether it might not be applied, if not literally to
the use of the Established Church, to kindred purposes
connected with the religious and moral instruction of the
poor? And here be must say that he thought those pur-
poses of education and of charity which, thought not men-
tioned in the resolution before the house, had been alluded
to in the speech of _the hon. and learned member for
Dublin, fairly came within the scope of legislation on the
part of Parliament, when the results of the commission
appointed by government should be obtained. (Cheers.)
For while he agreed with his noble friend, and, he believed
with every member of the government, in thinking that
the revenues of the Irish Church ought not to be diverted
from their present uses for the purpose of endowing the
Catholic Church, he at the same time saw nothing incon-
sistent or wrong in the appropriation of a part of them for
the purposes' of education, which, while being a religious
and moral education, should also be of such a nature as
would allow-Roman Catholics, as well as Protestants, to
,partake therein. (Cheers.) Thinking that in the further-
ance of this object, and the object of charity, these re-
venues of the Irish church would in all probability be ex-
hausted, and considering the church revenues to be a fund
set apart for the religious and. moral instruction of the poor
more especially, he felt relieved from the necessity of enter-
ing into the discussion of the question which the right hon.
baronet the member for Tamworth, and other hon. members;
desired to raise,—viz., whether the revenues could be ap-
plied to any secular purposes. With respect to the ab-
solute right of the state to appropriate the revenues of
the church to any-secular purpose whatever, no man pro-
bably entertained a doubt ; but as to the moral and equit-
able right of the state so to do, that was a question not
likely to arise until every demand which could be made for
the proper and due instruction of the people, and for the
purposes of charity, should be satisfied ; and he, seeing no
prospect of its arising with respect to these particular re-
venues of the Irish church, did not think it necessary to
enter into a discussion es to what measures it might pos-
sibly be expedient to, propose, if the Irish church should be
found to possess any superiluous' wealth not needed for the
purposes he had mentioned. (,Hear, hear.) lie might lit
Mating, at least might be stipposed to be stating, the
doctrines merely of a lay-man, which were not justified b)
sating or -
a due regard for the interest of the church,--doctrines
which would possibly meet with reprobation if broached in

those meetings to which allusion had been . made in the
course of the night. He would, therefore, shoW the house
that these doctrines were the doctrines of churchmen
themseves, by reading. a short quotation from one of the
charges of a most eminent and enlightened prelate—he
meant the Bishop of Llandaff. (Hear, hear.) Speaking of
church property the right reverend prelate said :—" All
property is the creature of the law, and the same law which
secures to individual owners the iirocitice of their estates
without limitation, and without inquiry as to the mode of its
disposal, has wisely reserved for public uses a fixed portion
of that property. The true question is, whether the uses
to which it is appropriated are such as an enlightened
Government can approve of, for •we (alluding to himself
and the clergymen whom he was addressing) by no means
contend that every appropriation once made, whether bene-
ficial to the community or not must be perpetuated."
(Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding all that had heen uttered
against doctrines of sacrilege and spoliation, as they had
been called, his opinions on this question went no further
than those of the right rev. prelate the Bishop of Llan-
daff. (Hear, hear.) All he wanted to know was whether
the uses to which the revenues of the Irish Church were
at present applied were or were not beneficial to the com-
munity? .( Cheers.) This was the inquiry which the con-
cluding words of the newly-issued commission, which had
been so tauntingly alluded to, directed to be made, and he
said, with the Bishop of Llandaff, that because an appro-
priation of the revenues of the Irish. Church had once been
made, it must not therefore be per etuated, whether bene-
ficial to the community or not. Cheers.) Though not
immediately bearing on the point e was now considering,
he would, with permission of the house, quote a passage
from the charge delivered by another right rev. prelate.
It was as follows :--" Great as are the advantages of a spe-
cial endowment for the support of the Established Church
over a universal system of stipendiary payment, it must
not be forgotten, sacred as the rights of property are, that
the conditions upon which the endowment is held are
quite as sacred as property itself." He, therefore, said he
had a right to inquire whether, in the case of the Irish
Church, the conditions upon which ,it held its present
revenues had been properly observed (Hear, hear), whe-
ther, in the first place, they had been observed on the part
of the clergy, and whether, in the next place, however
zealous the ,clergy might have been to perform their du-
ties, there might not exist causes which in many instances
prevented those conditions being complied with ? There
was another right reverend prelate, whose opinions he
would quote to the house, but for whose authority he did
not entertain so high a respect as he did for those of the
right reverend prelates he had before alluded to, because
he was in the habit of introducing a great deal too much of
imprecation and violence into his discourses—he meant the
Bishop of Exeter. (Loud cries of " Hear.") In one of
his charges that right reverend prelate said, " Whatever
politicians or statesmen may say, if the revenues of the
church are insufficient for the proper instruction of the
people, it is the duty of the Legislature to increase them."
(Hear, hear.) Now, would any man contend, that if
Lord A. or Mr. B. had not sufficient property for their i
subsistence, it was the duty of the Legislature to increase
their incomes ? (" Oh, oh !" and cheers.) He had
heard it continually asserted that Parliament had no more
right to interfere with church property than it had to in-
terfere with the property of any individual.; yet the Bishop
of Exeter said, and said truly, that if the church property
was insufficient for the purposes for which it was granted,
it was the duty of the Legislature to increase it ; and
it was equally true that if the church property was greater
than necessary for the uses for which it was granted, a
part of it might be taken from the church. ( Cheers.) He
was afraid of wearying the house or he might quote from
the work of one of the best writers on constitutional
questions—he meant Mr. Hallam- -a passage in which
the writer drew a distinction between corporate and
individual property. Should the present question be again
discussed, he should certainly come prepared with the pas-
sage to which he had referred. It had been said that the
various commissions appointed by preceding Governments
had exhausted the whole question of inquiry—that the
amount of the revenues of the Church and the state of edu-
cation were fully ascertained. With respect to the reve-
nues of the Church, and those individuals who were in the
enjoyment of them, he was ready to admit that a very am-
ple inquiry had been made, and that a full investigation had
been made into the relations of the members of the church
with one another. But there was one point, the gist of
the whole question, which had not as yet been inquired
into, and, that was, the bearing which the Church in Ire-
land had on the condition of the people. (Hear, hear.)
This was the point with respect to which the commissioners
were particularly directed to inquire. ( Hear, hear.) " I
am well aware,' continued the noble lord, " that on this
subject, above all others, an attempt will be made to raise
the cry of ' the church is in danger.' Whatever success
that cry may have, I am prepared to abide by the
opinions which I have expressed. (Cheers.) I am
not prepared to continue the government of Ireland
without fully probing her condition. I am not pre-
pared to propose bills for coercion and the maintenance of
a lal.ige force of military and police, without endeavouring
16 improve, as far as lies in my power, the con.lition of the
people. (Cheers.) In the same way, witholt intending
in the least to injure the Church of England, but, on the
contrary, wishing to maintain it, I am ready to relieve the
Protestant Dissenters from everything like a civil disability
of which they justly complain. On this subject, as on the
other, I know perfectly well to what we are liable. If the
cry to which I have alluded should be raised and prove
successful, and if that dissolution which had been invoked
with such loud cheers by many gentlemen opposite take
place, I do not Care, I consider lam doing my duty.
(Loud cheering.) I will not be a minister to carry on
systems which I think founded on bigotry and prejudice.
(Cheers.) Be the consequence what it may, however loud
may be the cry raised, and whatever its success, I am con-
tent to abide by these opinions, to carry them out to their
fullest extent, not by any premature declaration of mere
opinion, not by attempting to introduce a bill before I
know the particular nature of the measure required, but
by going on gradually, from time to time improving our
institutions, and, without injuring their ancient and vene-
rable nature, rendering them fit and proper mansions for a
brave, free, and intelligent people." (Loud and general
cheers, which continued for some time after the noble lord
had resumed his seat. )
Mr. SHAW, in explanation, said that he had never de-
nied that the number of the Catholics was greater than
that of the Protestants. All that he had said was that the
latter were increasing.
Mr. WARD put it to the hon. and learned member for
Dublin whether, after having effected so much by his mo-
tion, after having obtained a promise from one of the 'Mi-
nisters, that if the present number of the commissioners
should be found insufficient to enable them to report before
the next session, the propriety of adding to their number
would be taken into consideration, and after having drawn
from the noble lord (J. Russell) those declarations which
had so deservedly elicited the cheers of the house, it would
be expedient to push the principle involved in the resolu-
tion to a division at the present moment. The advocates
of that principle had never been able to meet the gentle-
men who conscientiously opposed it single handed. If the
right hon. baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) was anxious to
try the strength of his party, let him move in committee
the re-introduction of the appropriation clauses. This
would be a tangible point, which would serve to show the
strength of parties in that house. The present motion
would not, however, answer that purpose, and it was for
this reason that he entreated the hon. and learned member
for Dublin not to press it to a division.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that no gentleman could have a
stronger claim on his gratitude than the hon. member for
St. Alban's ; and if he did not comply with his request, it
was not from any want of respect to him,—from any want
of thatMulness for the manly, open, and decided part taken
by the right hon. member for Coventry, or from any want
of admiration for the noble sentiments with which the
speech of the noble lord (Russell) was replete—more espe-
cially that transcendent sentiment with the expression of
which the noble lord concluded his speech—but he wanted
to know what was to be done for the people of Ireland ; and
how could he ascertain that except by pressing his resolu-
tion to a division ? If that resolution should be shrunk
from, it was not his fault ; but unless it was carried, he
should feel it his duty to oppose the bill.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the house I
divided—

For Mr. O'Connell's resolution 99
Against it
Majority against the resolution —26l
During the exclusion of strangers, we understood that
the bill %vas committed pro forma, and ordered to be re-
considered in committee to-morrow (this day).
(Just before the division, one of the strangers sitting in
the gallery rose up, and attempted to address the Speaker.
He was immediately taken into custody by.the messengers. )
The Greenwich Hospital Annuity Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at a quarter to one. o'clock.

INFLUENCE OF FASIIION.—Madame Pasta
was announced to appear in 7'ancredi, in which she
would have to sing that generally considered chef
d'oeuvre of Rossini, " Di tanti palpiti ;" but the scene
in which this song occurred happened to be in the first
act of the opera, and as it would not have been consi-
dered etiquette for any person of fashionable preten-
sions
to be seen at the theatre before a certain hour of
the evening, a communication was made from some of
the subscribers to the manager, requesting him to trans-
fer the song to the second act of the opera. This
proposition was, however, strenuously opposed by the
queen of song, and the manager, in this dilemma,
waited upon the subscribers, and after informing them
of the fair vocalist's refusal to transfer the song in
question from its proper place, said that he had thought
of a small device which he believed would answer every
Purpose, and that was to commence the opera with
the last act, and to conclude it with the first. This
expedient satisfied the scruples of all parties, the opera
was performed with the change of acts, and the sub-
scribers declared that they were never so delighted
with the representation of any opera before.—Phil-
lips's Lectures on Singing.

POLICE iIkitELLIGENCE.

MA RY LEBONE.

Yesterday Mr, :William Busby, a gentleman resid-
ing at St. Katharine' Hospital, Regent's Park, was
brought up in custody, charged ivkli the follolving un-
provoked assault on Mr. Wm. Walbottitty the well-
known dancing-master, at present residing ai Morn-
ington-gardens, Hampstead-road. Complainant about
half-past ten o'clock the preceding night went to the.
Regalia public-house in; AugUstusLstreet,. to get his
supper beer, at %vhicli plate he also purchased some
cheese of the landlord. On arriving at horse,, how-
ever, he missed the cheese, and suspecting that he had
dropped it on his road he went back to look fur. it, ac-
companied by his son, a lad about fourteen years of
age, who carried a candlestick and lighted candle.
On. reaching Augustus-street the defendant, who was
on the opposite side of the way, crossed over, and ad-
dressing vtritness, exclaimed, 4f What do•you want with
a light?". and at the same time blew it out, and struck
him in the face. Witness remonstrated with him,
when he seized his son by the neckcloth, and nearly
strangled him. Witness tried to get him away, then
the prisoner wrested the candlestick from the lades

;rasp, and struck witness several severe blows with it
over the forehead and nose, in the course of which the
-candlestick broke in half. He then called out for the
police, who on coming up took the prisoner into custody.
The prisoner was ordered to find bail to answer the
charge at the sessions. •