The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-10 00:00:00

London ; but that to remove all doubt which
might exist upon the subject, he should intro-
duce a clause which would clearly leave the
power of establishing banks of depositin London
with more than six partners, open to all the
world. This is an important point gained for
the inhabitants of the metropolis, and, indirectly,
to the country bankers and country people, who
are obliged to make use of London bankers
as agents.

En answer to a question from the Marquis of
C' ANRICARDE, the LORD CHANCELLOR ob-
served last night in the House of Lords that he
should endeavour next Session to provide a
remedy for the imperfections of the law respect-
ing patents. On the motion for the further
consideration of the report of the East India
Bill, the Earl of ABERDEEN moved that Coun-
sel be heard at the bar on behalf of the holders
of Carnatic stock and other creditors of the Com-
pany. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE proposed
the introduction of a clause for the protection of
the Carnatic stock-holders, in consequence of
which Lord ABERDEEN withdrew his motion.
After a few other alterations, the report was
agreed to.

The prevalence of easterly winds has prevented
any further arrival from Portugal. The Roy-
alist, however, which is the only mail packet
due, cannot bring any news of interest, as her
dates are anterior to the capture of Lisbon.
The only disposable steamer on the Tagus a
few days ago was the George the Fourth, which
took out BOURMONT and his staff.

It is quite true, as insinuated by a Tory con-
temporary, that Ministers are endeavouring to
bring about an arrangement for the return of
Don PEDRO to the Brazils. There have already
been several conferences between M. de TAL-
LEYRAND and Lord PALMERSTON on this
subject.

The German Papers received by the Hamburg
mail contain some fulsome eulogiums on the
generosity of the Emperor NICHOLAS, together
with deprecatory allusions—of a very lachrymose
character—to the late discussion on the affairs
of Poland, brought forward by Mr. C. FERGUS..
SON in the House of Commons. By the same
Papers we learn, that Count ORLOFF arrived at
Odessa on the 16W, and that the Russian troops
have actually, at length, quitted the SULTAN'S
dominions.

Galignani's Messenger mentions that a re-
port was in circulation that France and England
had received a communication from the Cabinet
of Madrid (couched in the same terms), by
which Spain calls upon those two Powers, who
have shown themselves the protectors of Donna
MARIA, to give a formal guarantee against the
spirit of propagandism, otherwise she will feel
herself compelled to interfere in the quarrel
between the two Princes.

IMPE RIA L PA IiLLIMENI

THIS DAY, SATURDAY, AUG. 10.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the House went
into committee on the Blnk Chirter Bill, Mr. BERNAL
in the Chair.

The CHAIRMAN read clause 6th, that bills not having
more than five months to z un, should not be subject to the
usury laws.
Mr. GROTE apprehended that, as the clause then
stood, it won d only extend to England. He was of opi-
nion that if it was good for that country, it should also be
extended to Scotland and Ireland.

Lord ALTHORP paid a few words that were nearly in-
audible in the gallery. We understood him to say that
there was nothing in the Bill to restrict its provisions to
England. .
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL apprehended that it

was quite clear that the clause applied to the whole of
the United Kingdom. When it was intended that any
measure should apply only to one part of the empire it
was usual to say " to that psrt of the United Kingdom
c died," hut in the clause before the House there was no
such restriction, and therefore it applied to the whole
country.
Mr. GROTE said he had been informed that there
might be some dispute as to the meaning of the clause in
another place.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL -aid with the consent
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he would introduce
words that would clearly express the meaning of the
clau-e, and so s,ve any dispute.

Mr. BLAMIRE said he could not see that there
was any necessity for at all interfering with
the Usury Laws. He was aware that many great
and good men had advocated the total abolition of them,
but he thought they were more interested fur the wealthy
borrower than the poor one. He was of opin on that
con‘iderable disadvantage would attend the remor.al even of
part of them. The measure might he of service in times of
panic, but still th it would not counterbalance the evil of it.
Lord ALT HORP said he did not expect to have been
called upon to discuss the question of the Usury Laws,
nor would he—he would argue simply the question before
the H..use. He was of opinion that the present measure
would greatly benefit the poorer closes, by adding to
tre security of the Bank. Suppose a man com-
mencing business without a capital, and not at the
time able to give the very best security—by giving a
trifle more of interest, he might become possessed of a
cap tal which in time would enable him to live comfort.
ably and accumulate property. The objections to the
repeal of the usury laws bad generally been made by the
landed interest, but the capital employed in mortgages swat,
very different from that which was employed in discounting
Bills, therefore they had nothing to complain of ; indeed,
he did not think they would have, even though the usury
laws were altogether repealed.
After a few observations from Mr. CAYLEY, which
were inaudible in the gallery,
Mr. THICKNESSE -aid he concurred in the observa-
tions of the Hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Bl *mire).
Ey this clause a small tradesman would not be able to
get a hill discounted, without paying an exorbitant rate of
interest that might be demanded of him. The clause was
one of the most important in the Bill, and he considered
it would inflict a great injury on a class of persons upon
whom, he contended, the prosperity of the country greatly
depended.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON supported the clause.
He knew some mercantile houses that paid only two per
cent. for accommodation, while others paid four per cent. ;
that was the natural result of large capital and high credit
over small credit and lower credit. He thought it might
happen, though very seldom, that a person of small capital
would be obliged to pay six or seven per cent. for the
accommodation ; but that would be a great convenience,
and would be much preferable to a person being reduced
to bankruptcy.—(Hear.) He knew that in 1823 more
than one hundred tradesmen in the metropolis became
nankrupt, although they were solvent, but it was because
they could not get their bills discounted, and there were
many persons who would have taken their bills if they
could have charged 6 or 7 per cent. discount. He knew
'lle instance, which be would relate. A person came to
Loudon and wanted 10,0001., but nut being able to sell out
iris Stock and convert it into crank-notes until after 3 o'clock
to the afternoon of that day, he paid another person a hand-
-owe sum for the accommodation of the bank notes for the
tew hours that intervened ; he thus saved his character
end his credit. That was a strong circumstance to show
the necessity of the banking and trading interests having
sortie such protection as this clause gave them.
Mr. THICKNESSE explained that his objection was
hat the small tradesman, who now paid his banker but
ive per cent. for the accommodation, would hereafter be
adiged to pay six, seven, or, perhaps, eight per cent.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS was of opinion that it would,
ruder some eircurnstancea, be greatly to a person's advan-
age to pay 7 or 8 per cent. for the advance of money.
He should, therefore, support the clause. He could have

Wished that the period of thiw ❑sonths were extended, for
the clause gave a preference to bills at three months
over all longer bills. In some districts, and in some trades,
it was customary to draw bills at six months, and all
those would be excluded from the operation of this clause.
He was satisfied that a change in the system had at length
been mole, but he regretted that it had not been mere
extensive.

Mr. T. ATTWOOD concurred in the opinion of the
Hon. Member who spoke last, that the clause should have
gone further, and he suggested to the Noble Lord (Al.
thorp) to include bills of four months' date.—(Hear,
hear.) That would be of great importance to small
tradesmen and small manufacturers, and would open
the door of accommodation to them which had, until
now, been shut. As to whether the discount might be
six or seven per cent., that was a point of no moment ;
for as far as he knew, a person requiring assistance never
inquired what discount he had to pay. Indeed in some
instances even 20 per cent. would be cheap under very
pressing circumstances. The clause would allow large
tradesmen to obtain accommodation on low terms, while
it would give protection and accommodation to the smaller
classes.

Mr. GROTE supported the clause.
After a few words from an HoN. MEMBER, whose
name we could not learn, the clause as amended was
agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

- Clause 7 was then put. -
Mr. CAYLEY thought it was fully understood that
an irresponsible power was an evil thing. It may be said
th ,t the Bank is responsible to its proprietors—but this is
not the puhlic. And then it is argued that if the Govern-
ment had the control of the circulation, that they are only
nominally responsi le. This is not true—for though not
responsible with their lives, they are with their place.,
which the public, throueh their representatives, may sup-
plant. But this power of the Bank of England is wholly
independent for 10 or 20 ye tra, and may be exerted alto-
gether opposite to the interest of the public. It is like
decennial or vigintennial Pal liaments. It will not do to
say that the Govt rnment have a virtual control—the des-
tinies and happiness of this country should be left to no
haz trds and uncertainties. The Bank has the power to
abuse, and last experience has shown that it has been abused.
Let us consider what the materials are upon which the
Bank of England has to operate. Why, no more nor less,
than upnn the whole property of the country—upon the
millions of some—or the sixpences of all. The public, in
the han ' of the Bank, are as the mouse in the claws of
the cat, or the fi,h in a stew-pan. It can be exercised to
throw labour out of employment—it can be exercised to
bring it into employment, by expanding the currency. By
giving better prices and higher profits, it secures really
better wages—it alleviates distress, and subdues discontent
B 1 a contraction of the annonnt of the circulation, it can
undo all this happy state of things, and by a continuance
of such a system, it can ripen distress into discontent, dis-
content into rebelli in. It miy end in an entire revolution,
not only of government, but of property. The truth is,
the Barak has more power than all the Legislature put to-
gether, not ostensibly, but in fact. Whatever laws Par-
liame it may pass, unless the Bank give prosperity, and re-
pair the soil, good seed cannot take root and flourish. This
is a power which the King of this country might in vain
struggle to obtain. In whose hands is it placed ? In those
of a company of private merchants, who have it in their
power to reduce currency, when they want to bring mer-
chandize cheap, and to increase it when they want to sell
it dear—or if they don't do it for themselves, they have
connections and friends for whom they may do it.

Gl:a:inv.—Have you observed considerable fluctuations
at different times in the amount of the circulating medium ?
Yes, I have observed there have been considerable fluctuations
and considerable effect produced by those fluctuations.
GURNEY.—To what did you attribute those fluctuations?
Partly to the management of the Bank itself, and partly to
causes operating upon them, out of their own control. •
DYER.—The Bank of England has by its expansion and con-
traction of the circulation, induced an expansicn and contrac-
tion following close upon its footsteps to a ruinous extent.
BURT.—Then you mean that commercial transactions are
deranged, and the prices disturbed by the issues of the Bank of
England? I mean that I consider the most judicious, and best
laid schemes, are frequently defeated by what takes place in
the issues of the Bank of England. There is more real speculation
now in general trade than in 1825. Because the prices being
u ertain the speculator naturally forms the best estimate he can
with regard to what will take place; what the price of the com-
modity is at that time he knows, and he forms the best opinion
he can as to what the price will be some two or three months
hence; and there is a great uncertainty upon that point, in
consequence of the fluctuation of paper by the Bank of
England.
Again, I say, that tl,eir reputation is no sufficient guaran-
tee against their acting thus. Tiiey have the power, and

can do it, and that is sufficient fir us, as legislators, to
know. We Live no right to speculate on remote possi-
bilities of virtue. The predominance of the commo❑ vice

of having interest altogether preclude, and makes criminal,
our legislating with capricious exception. Was not the
brightest and wisest said also to be the meanest of man-
kind ? and is the confidence reiused to one like this to be
granted to the Give, nor or the Bank of England ? Dare
they desert the Proprietors? and if they do not, is the
public to trust them P And if they do desert the Proprie-
tors—to whom they have sworn allegiance—how shall
they expect confidence from the public, to whom they have
not sworn allegiance, and to whom they are in nowise
reap maible ? They cannot serve two :masters—and they
have shown in ibis bargain which they are most inclined
to serve. I do not believe they dream of entrusting
this power to private hands in any other country. I
bring ft rward this motion, not only because the Direc-
tors are irresponsible to the public—not because they may
abuse their power—but because the system bas been most
fluctuating and injurious under their controul ; and I now
proceed to (induce instances of it. In 1825, our monied
and trading concerns were as much without a ruler, We
were as much at valiance, and without a system of Go.
vernment, as we had been without all the three branches
of the Legisliture. There are times when the monied
market requires a dictator—when it requires the strongest
and most resolute powers of Government—and just when
the vessel requires the most management—we leave it to
the mercy of the winds and waves. Accommodation
cave relief at last, as Exchequer Bills in 1793 did.
He then moved the insertion of the words in line
34 after " for the time being," " who if occasion
shall require, shall, in respect of the amount of issue,
be at liberty to call for the Legislative advice and interference
of Parliament." lie thought the mere virtual control
of Lord Althorp would not be enouch. The Bank would
have the control of the entire circulation of the country ;
and as it could at will influence all fluctu ttions, it was
too much to give them an unlimited control such as this
clause proposed to vest in them over the entire property
of the country.
Mr. GROTE thought that the amendment of the Hon.
Member ought not to be adopted without special grounds
were shown for it. If it invested Government with the
power of controlling the issues of tie Bank the responsi-
bility of the Bank, would pro tont° be null and void.
Lord ALTHORP thought the Hon. Member had
mistaken the seciiiity which the clause ; gave it would
give no additional security, lie admitted, but would merely
give into, oration to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The
only question therefore was, whether this would be the
best mode of giving security. If it gave the Chancellor
of the Exchequer a complete control over the Bank, it
might he productive of mischievous consequences.
Mr. WARBURTON objected to the amendment, on
the ground that it would conceal that information from the
public which it was entitled to have. The more information
was given to the public the better the BAnk would be kept
in order.

After some observations from Mr. GROTE, Mr. Alder-
man THOMPSON, and Mr. SCROPE, the amendment was
negatived.
Mr. STRUTT then moved an amendment, to the effect
of requiring not the average of the quarter's is,ues of the
134hk, but the publication in detail at the end of the
quarter, of the weekly accounts rendered to the Govern-
ment by the Bank.
Lord ALTHORP said that there were several modes in
which this publication might take place ; and lie must
say he thought that chosen by the Hon. Gt ntleman the
worst that could have been ciiosen.—(Hear.) The pro-
position contained in the 13111 was not exactly that of
which he individually approved, but it was 0°,4.4 the
best by his colleagues, and he had yielded the point to
them. He certainly thought there would be great advan-
tagest in having the accounts published one week under
the other—(Hear)—but the objection urged to that plan
oy he Bank was
a strong one,—that circumstances might

occur in one particular week which would give ihe public
a very erroneous impress;on of the real state of uffairs. For
instance, early in the present session the foreign tichanges
were in our favour ; but a great capitalist having occa
sion to make remittances abroad, drew out from
the Bank a million sterling at once —(Hear.) Had
it simply been published a week afterwards that so large
a diminution of the treasure of the Bank had taken place
in one week, people might have been led to heli ve that the
foreign exchanges had turned against us; and thus the greatest
..mbirrassment and confusion would have been occasioned
in the commercial affairs of the country. Now the pro•
position of the Hon. Gentleman was in a great degree
open to the same objection of leaving the public open to
°oral an erroneous judgment from the account published.
After the payment of the dividends, fur instance, the
average would look very different to what it ought to
do. By that course the public would be better able to

ascertain whether the Bank trai acting On mud prin.
ciples. It was for these reasons that he had adopted the
mode of publication proposed in the Bill.

Mr. STRUTT exnlaiiled.

Mr. WARBURTON said, the arguments used against

frequent puhlicitv, were such as would be used any
Government or -Corporation that was against all pub-
licity.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It was said
that the weekly publication would give rise to some in-
convenience—it might do so, but then it ought to be
borne in mind that all legislation was a balance of good
and evil, and, in his opinion, as the clause then stood,
the evil greatly predominated. Bec •use it might give rise
to some inconvenience, they were taking away all the
control of public opinion, and were going back to the old
system of total darkness upon all the proceedings of the
Bank. There was another important point that ought to
be considered. Country bankers had been found fault with
—it had been said that they had neglected their duty,
because they had not regulated their issues by the
par of exchange. How could they get the information
but by these we ekly publications? By the quarterly ones
it was impossible for them to regulate their issues as it was
said they ought to do. They were by that clause taking away
from the knowledge of the banker that information which
above all others was necessary for regulating his conduct io
regard to issues. To remedy a paltry inconvenience they
were taking away that which was of paramount import-
ance, the constant check of public opinion.
Mr. P. SCROPE said, that as this was the most im-
portant part of the Bill, he trusted he should be allowed to
say a few words upon it. Publicity was the only control
which the public had over the conduct of the Bank.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had repeatedly acknowledged that he was placing a
vast power in the hands of a body who had
an interest in abusing it. A quarterly average was no
adequate check upan that body intrusted with such a
power. In the course of the quarter the fluctuations
might vary from 20 millions to 30 millions, and yet the
average might remain the same at the end of the quarter.
Could any man say that that was a proper check, or any
check at all? There were two objects to be obtained by
publication. First, the public had a right to know all the
operations of the Bank.—(Hear, hear, bear.) Every mar-
ket in the country was affected by its operations ; there-
fore, every one in business should be made acquainted
with those operations which regulated the prices in the
markets. Twenty-faur gentlemen, merchants of London,
were the only persons who were acquainted with the state
of the issues of the Bank, and of its general operations—
with those operations which regulated every market for
three months ; and though those gentlemen were well-
known to be respectable and honourable men, still he
would maintain that it was an unfair advantage,
and one which they must use in those private con-
cerns in which they were daily engaged. For
that reason, if for no other, publication ought to be con-
stant and instantaneous. Secondly, publication would
give to the public a moral control over the Bank. That
was a right which the public were entitled to, and in
order to give them that security, the publication should be
full, complete, and immediate. He trusted that the
Noble Lord would again come back to the first proposition
he made to the Bank, viz. weekly publication.
Lord ALTHORP denied that the B ink Directors

employed the knowledge which their situation gave them
in their own private affairs, and, therefore, in discussing
this Bill, he hoped Hun. Members would rtfrain altogether
from throwing out insinuations on their conduct. The

object of the clause was, to frame the best mode of bring-
ing the control of public opinion upon the gener4l

of the Bank, and -the question was, how that could be
best attained, and whether it was by a publication, such as
he had proposed, or whether by a more frequent publication.
He was of opinion still that, by the clause, as it stood, the
public would have a better view of the B ink transactions
during the quarter, than by a publication of merely insulat-
ed parts. It was well known that at the commencement of
the quarter the issues of the Bank were considerably larger
than at the end of the quarter, and, therefore, if the public
were merely to look by comparison at those two periods,
it might be imagined that at one time there was a great
extension, and at another time a contraction of the
Issues. Looking at the whole affairs of the Bank, it
would be seen that the variations were not sudden but
gradual, and if it should be found that the effect of the
Bill produced any sudden check, a remedy would speedily
be provided.
Mr. WARBURTON suggested that the publica-
tion, monthly, of the three preceding months, by which
there would be twelve averages in the year, would afford
a great deal more information, and give greater security to
the public.
Mr. GROTE said, the Noble Lord had failed to con-
vince him that iris mode of publication would afford the
best security to the public. He was of opinion that there
should be a continuous series of the Bank affairs, which
should be laid before the public oftener than four times
in the year.—(Hear, hear.) If he were disposed to fol-
low his own views, he should be disposed to have
the publication weekly in the Gazette, but despairing
of catrying that object, he in•ended to submit, after
the pre-ent amendment was disposed of, a proposition to the
effect that a weekly series of accounts should be made, coming
up to a day three months antecedent to the day of pub-
lication. If publicity was likely to be the cause of more
frequent mistakes than at present, of course it would be
better to abandon it altogether ; but he thought they
ought to give credit to the public for possessing sufficient
common-sense to enable them to draw fair and proper in-
ferences ; and he was confident that the Bank affairs
should be laid before the public from week to week, rather
than taking averages, huddled together for a period of
three months.

Mr. Alderman THOMPSON thought it would be
more advantaee.ius to the public that the accounts of
the Bank should be published at the end of the quar-
ter rather than weekly. Publication would be an
evil, unless every person were put in possession of
every circumstance r lative to the fluctuation in the
amount of bullion, &c. which it would be impossible for
the Bank to furnish every week. Without sure, cert iin,
,incl valid information, it would be only delusive to the

_
After a few word., from Sir J. REID and Mr. SCRoPE,
Air. STKUTT withdrew biri am-ndment.

Mr. GROTE moved as an amendment, to the ffect
that accounts shoal be transmitted weekly to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer for the time being, of the amount of
bullion issues, deposits, and other securities in the pos-
session of the Bank, according to the terms originally
proposed by the Noble Lord (Althorp) in his letter to the
Bank Directors on the Ist of April.
The amendment was then put, and the gallery cleared
for a division, when there appeared—

For the Amendment
Against it
Majority against the Amendment —2l

On our re entering she gallery, we lound

Mr. WARBURTON on his legs, proposing an amend-
ment to the Effect that an average pc:count should he fur-
nished monthly of the issue, Le. of the Bank for the
precedine three months.
Lord ALTHORP c:oild not, at first sight, see any ob-
jection to the amendment of the Hon. Member, but could
nut agree to th, proposition without further consideration.
Mr. WARBURTON said, after the sta•ement of the
Noble Lord, he would not press his amendment.

Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY proposed some verbal
amendments in the 7th clause.

Mr. GROTE, in reference to the amendment pro
posed by Mr. Warburton, suggested the propriety of
the averaue accounts being nose, not for the three
months previous, but only for one month.
Clause 7, as amended, was then agreed to, and or-
dered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 8,9, 10 and 11, with a few verbal amend-
ments, were agreed to.
On clause 12 being put,
Sir J. WROTTESLEY rose. He did so, not for the
purpose of objecting to the bargain that had been m ide
with the B ink by the clause, but to draw the attention
of the Committee to the particular inconvenience that
arose from the length of time that was suffered to elapse
before the dividends were made and the Stock Exchange
closed. A deal of time was at present taken up in making
up the accounts, from the fact of so many fractions of a
pound being allowed.—(Hear, hear.) No inconve-
nience Nviiuld arise from allowing of no fraction
lower than 2s. This would be the 10th of a pound,
and he would suggest, as an additional facility in making
out the accounts, that a coin could be issued of that value
to be called a Prince, this would he the 10th part of a
sovereign, and an arrangement might be made with the
Commissioners for the redemption of the National Debt,
to adopt that mode of calculation, and he dial not doubt it
would prevent the necessity of the public being put to the
inconvenience they now were by the length of time
stocks were closed. This would bring ue so near
to a decimal system, that he should hope to see it lead to
a general adoption of that system. Two of the most civi-
,ized nations in the world had adopted that system, and
if England, which might be said to govern commerce,
adopted it, there could not be a doubt that it
would lead to the most convenient results. He would show
the House how near they already were to decimal
calculations. If silver decimal money were adopted
in the way he suggested it would only remain to provide
for the copper money. Now our copper money
tvas only half its nominal valise, so that, it was,