The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-20 00:00:00

lir. MOORE observed, that th Hon. and L..arned
11.1 ember for Slit-11141d had not been present during :he
evening. tlon. and Learned Member for Athlone
had never put his amendment. There had been nothing
but a desultory conversation.--(0h, and a laugh.) The
expression was not but had been applied throughoui
the evening. That desultory conversation was raised on
the statement of the Attorney-General. The opponents
();: the Bill had never raised di-cuision on the question

PETITIONS.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition in favour of
the Cop) hold Enfranwiisement 13,11, from some gentle-
na,n who, under the present law, had had several
racehorses seized as an heriot.
The E irl of EGLINTON presented, from the borough
of Ayr, the most numerously signed petition that had
ever been presented from that place. It was against
Papal ag•itression, and he could bear witness to what
hail been stated be the Noble Duke (argyle) as to the
feeling generally prevailing in Scotland against this ag-
gression. The Noble Earl presented several petitions
to the same effect.
Lord CAMPBELL would bear witness to the feeling
in Scotland on the subject, and he had to present several
petitions from parishes in Scotland against Papal ag-
gression, which had been signed by the whole of the in-
habitant', male and tem,' of those parishes.
Thu Earl or SANDWICH presented a petition from
places in Huntingdonshire, praying for a restoration of
agricultural prot-ction.
Lord S I'ANLEY presented several petitions with a
similar prayer, and he was convinced that before any
long time had elansei they would be compelled to P3Y
attention to the claims of the landed interest. The
Noble Lord also presented several petitions against Papal
aggression; also a petition from Belfast, praying for the
establishment of an Irish Transatlsntic packet station.
The Bishop of OXFORD presented several petitions
against Papal aggression.
The Earl of WINCHILSEN presented several peti-
tions complaining of agricultural distress.
Earl Fl CZ WILLIAM presented a petition from Not-
tingham against Papal aggression.
Lard STANLEY presented a petition in favour of
the New Brunswick and Nova Scotia Railway.
The Earl of WALDEGR AVE presented a petition
in favour of the Copy hold Enfranchisement Bill.
EXPENSES OF CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS
BILL.
Lord ORAN WORTH moved the second reading of
this Bill.—Agreed to.
PROPERTY-TAX BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the second
eading of the Income and Property-tax Bill. This
was the Bill of the session, which was of the
greatest financial importance. He believed that however
imperfect the wording of the amendment introduced into
this Bill by a majority of the House of Commons—
introduced into this Bill in opposition to the
wishes of her Majesty's Government, might
have been, it would not affect the legal effect of the
Bill. But he would call the attention of their Lord-
ships to the provisions of the Bill, and although
he was not one of those who could be
considered as an advocate of direct over indirect taxa-
tion, and although no one was more aware than himself of
the imperfections of this tax, which imperfections had
been moat ably set forth by the Right lion. Baronet,
now no more, who had first proposed this tax, yet he felt
bound to propose the renewal of it as a temp erary measure.
He was convinced that Parliament never could remedy
the glaring inequalities of this tax, and he thought it
was the duty of Parliament to make these immense
burdens as palatable as . possible. But these
objections were subject to two qualifications,
the first being how far by the continuance of this bur-
den they could facilitate the importation of raw produce
into this country, and bow far by doing away with other
taxes they would so increase the revenue, by encouraging
increased importation and increased consumption, so as to
enable them eventually to do away with the income-tax
itself. Without troubling their Lordships with figures
in any detail, he would ask them whether they really
thought the tax during the time it had lasted, from 1842
till the present time, had in any visible or tangible form
crippled or diminished the commercial prosperity and
revenue of this country? If he asked himself this ques-
tion he found an unanswerable reply in the state of the
revenue, not only in one particular portion but in every
part. They had at this moment to provide 50,000,0001.
of revenue; they had still to provide for the burdens
arising from 787,000,000/. of debt. What had been the
progress of the revenue since 1842? 48,084,000/. was
the whole amount of the revenue in 1842. Since that
time 10,251,000/. of taxes had been repealed, and in 1850
the net revenue was 52,810,0001., showing an increase of
income of 4,726,0001.; so that the entire amount of the
taxes which had been surrendered in the course of the
ten years had been nearly restored and replaced by that
development of the increased prosperity of the country
which had taken place under the income-tax. They had,
by the employment of that tax, given to the reproductive
industry of the country a power which could not other-
wise have existed, and they had placed themselves in
that fortunate position in which they had to consi-
der, not how they were to obtain a surplus revenue,
but how they were to dispose of it. But as that sur-
plus was not sufficient to enable them to get rid of
the income-tax altogether, he believed they could not
pursue a wiser course than to continue the tax in its
present form, and to employ it for the purposes pro-
posed by her Majesty's Government—namely, for the
purpose of reducing the duties on those imported
articles coffee and timber, and of removing the window-
tax, which not only pressed heavily on persons of every
class in this country, but also, at the same time, most
prejudicially affected the sanitary condition of the great
mass of the people. The repeal of the window-duty
would tend greatly to improve the physical condition of
the working classes, by procuring for them more light
and air, and a better class of dwellings, in conformity
with one of the great tendencies of the present age.
They had every reason to believe that a reduction of the
duty on coffee would lead to an increasing consumption
of the article, and that under that change the revenue
might reach the amount produced by the hither duty;
for that was precisely what had happened on a pre-
vious occasion. The fact was, that when the duty on
ceffee had formerly been reduced, the amount of
the duty had actually increased in the course
of four or five years. Then, again, with respect to
the reduction of the timber duties, he found that since
tee proposal upon that subject had been submitted to
Parliament, a new impulse had been given to ship-build-
ing and a reduction in the price of timber had already
taken place. The Bill then before their Lordships was
but a transcript of the Act which had already on more
than one occasion received their sanction, with this ex-
ception, that it would relieve the tenant-farmers from a
grievance under which they had complained that they
bad hitherto laboured. The tenant-farmers bad until
the present moment been compelled to pay the tax on
one-half the amount of their rents, but under the
amended Bill then before their Lordships any tenant
who could prove that his profits had fallen short of that
assumed amount would be entitled to a proportionate
reduction in the charge to which he would be liable. The
tax was only to be continued for one year, and at the
expiration of that period they would again have an op-
portunity of considering the whole question. Under
these circumstances he believed that, with a due regard
to public credit and to the promotion of that develop•
ment of the national resources which they might carry
still further by persevering in the policy they had
hitherto adopted, they would feel it their duty to adopt
the Bill as it had been sent down to them from the other
House. He therefore moved that the Bill be read a
second time —(Rear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY said the Noble Marquis had moved
the second reading of the Bill upon two grounds—first,
on the necessity of maintaining the public credit of the
country, and on the impossibility of finding a substitute
tor the' income-tax in the present year; and, second, on
the ground from which be (Lord Stanley) dissented, that
it was necessary for the purpose of extending the pre-
sent commercial system, and for facilitating the iropor
tation of those articles of foreign produce, the importa-
tion of which he (Lord Stanley) believed had already in-
flicted such injury upon the agricultural interest of this
country.—(Hear, hear.) The Government had brought
up a Bill, the passing of which, in some shape, was ne-
cessary for maintaining the credit of the country. He
was not the person who would contend that, in the
course of this year or the next, they could dispense with
a certain portion of the income-tax, and he, and those
who acted with him, would not sanction the rash and
reckless reduction of taxation which would make the
country unable to meet its expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)
As the present Bill was a money Bill, their Lord-
ships had not the slightest power to alter it.—(Hear,
bear.) The question was, whether they would sanc-
tion the renewal of the tax for one year, on the
ground stated by the other House of Parliament, or re-
ject the Bill altogether.—(Hear, hear.) By rejecting it,
about five millions would be struck off the anticipated
income, and taking the present surplus at about two
millions and a half, they would, by rejecting the Bill,
reduce the surplus to a deficit of similar amount. He
thought, under such circumstances, they could not hesi-
tate how to act. It appeared that a blunder had been
committed in the Bill as it now stood for continuing the
tax for one year, and the Noble Marquis had said that
that blunder had been caused by the introduction of the
amendment. Ho (Lord Stanley), however, thought that
the blunder was in the Government not taking care
that the amendment agreed with the other portion of
the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) They might, however, pass
the Bill, blundering as it was, or reject it altogether. Ho
had not for his own part any desire to offer opposition
to the Bill, notwithstanding its blunders. He agreed in
what had been said by the Noble Marquis opposite, as
to the impossibility of altering the Bill as altogether
to avoid inequalities. In point of fact the income-
tax, as it at present stood, was anomalous in theory
and had inequalities in, practice. The anomalies
might be diminished, but he agreed that they
could not pass a Bill upon the subject that would
be in every respect just.—(Hear, hear.) He could not
give his consent to continue this anomalous and unjust
measure, not as it had been proposed by Sir Robert
Peel, as a temporary Bill merely, but as one bound up
with the taxation of the country, and kept up for the
purpose of carrying out that commercial system to which
be was opposed, and which had already been the means
of effecting so much loss and injury.—(Hear, hear.) He
was of opinion that the House of Commons decided
wisely in coming to the determination that the measure
should be reconsidered at the expiration of the present
year.—(Hear.) He thought that House had decided
wisely in determining that whether it was to' be Conti-
nued for two years or for three years, they would in-
quire whether, at the expiration of the present year,
the anomalies and inequalities could not be reduced
and made less oppressive in their operation.—(Liear,
hear.) He thought, however, the House of Commons
acted wrongly in not adopting the proposition of a
Right Honourable Gentleman when he proposed that,
without endangering the public faith or the public cre-
dit, the House should declare that at the earliest pos-
sible period the tax should be reduced, and that it
should not be continued for the indefinite reduction
of indirect taxation. The House of Commons had not
thought proper to take that course, but had determined•
that the tax in its present shape, should only be conti-
nued for one year. Their Lordships had not passed any
opinion on the other measures of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, but he (Lord Stanley) would be prepared to go
iwnhtoenthe a diseussion of the policy which had been pursued
Proper time arrived.—(Hear, hear.) It op-
Pored that in order to acconagliali an indefinite dove-

lopement_of the present commercial system, they were
to have an indefinite reduction of indirect taxation and
direct taxation, for the purpose of increasing the importa-
tion of foreign corn.—(Hear.) By such a course they
were sacrificing a large amount of revenue annually,
which would enable them to relieve the pressure of the
income-tax, and while they were losing revenue, they
were not gaining in the price of the artice which would
compeesate f it the loss of revenue. As to the reduction
in the duty on coffee, he thought it was inflicting injury
on the colonial grower, while the consumer did not re-
ceive compensating advantage. He knew it could be
said that the reduction in the consumption of
coffee was to be ascribed to the adulteration of that
article. That would be raising another question
which made the conduct of the Government incompre
henstble, by refusing to bring in a measure to prevent
the adulteration, and to protect the consumer. He could
not understand the conduct of Government in not re-
medying that evil. He did not know that the country
would derive the advantage anticipated from the reduc-
tion of the duties on coffee and timber. Ile thought
the country would lose by the latter reduction.—(Hoar
hear.) There had been no fall in prices commensurate
with the reduction of the duty, and the consequence was
that the foreign producer was the gainer.—(Hear, hear.)
As regarded the measure now before them, the question
was between the adoption of the Bill as it stood, or its
rejection altogether. Their Lordships had not the power
to make any alteration. The Noble Marquis had taken
great credit for one reduction which had been effected
in direct taxation, and he (L Ord Stanley) was not going
to say that the abolition of the tax in question was not
an advantage. But in doing away with the window-tax
they had imposed on the same class of that community
a house-tax. The window-tax altogether was levied
upon 500,000 houses, but the house-tax would fall upon
400,000. The tax was so charged as to exempt a certain
portion of that class who claimed the exercise of the
elective franchise.—(Hear.) Now he did not know why
there should bo that sacrifice of revenue.—(Hear, hear.)
It might be very convenient to increase the influence of
certain metropolitan Members ; but he could not see
why the owner of a 101. house should be exempted from
all taxation.—(Hear, hear.) He thought they might
have obtained all the sanitary advantages by doing
away with the window-tax, and laying a house-tax to
the same extent; or they might have retained the win-
dow-tax, and enabled the parties to compound for it, and
permitted them to open as many windows afterwards as
they might think proper. He regretted her Majesty's
Government had proceeded on so objectionable a prin-
ciple, that while the income-tax was admitted to be a
temporary measure, taxes were being taken off, and they
were continuing to bring down the revenue so nearly to
balance the expenditure, that it was impossible they
could any year have a sufficient surplus to enable them
to do away with the income-tax.—(Hear, hear.) How-
ever the Government might make professions on the sub-
ject, the country would come to the conclusion that
whatever they might say in theory, in practice it was
their intention to continue the income-tax. He (Lord
Stanley) was, however, of opinion that it was their duty
to take measures for doing away with the income-tax as
soon as possible.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
concluded by saying, that it was not his intention to offer
any opposition to the second reading of the Bill.
The Earl of MALMESBURY wished to ask, upon
what assessment the house tax was intended to be taken?
If upon the poor-rate assessment, that varied in different
parts of the country; and if upon the income-tax assess-
ment, which was supposed to be more fair and more ge-
nerally equal, new commissioners would have to be ap-
pointed
when the income-tax should cease—and we were
surely not to assume it to be perpetual.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed, that the
House-tax bill had not yet passed, and the subject was
under consideration in the other House. The Noble
Marquis added a few words which were inaudible in the
gallery, but we believe they referred to there being
means of having the poor-law valuations equalized.
The Else of MALMESBURY repeated, that these
local assessments varied 20 or 30, if not 50 per cent.,
from the real value in some cases; and nothing could be
more unfair than to base the house-tax upon them.
Lord BEAUMONT apprehended that there were
always two columns, one stating the rack-rent, the other
the rateable value. The Noble Lord seemed to ima-
gine that the second column would be taken ; that
would be monstrous, for one part of the country would
then be paying much more than another. But, if the
law had been complied with, there was a fair and com-
plete account of the gross value; and upon that the house-
tax might be bated.
The Earl of MALMESBURY did not think the law
was observed in that point ; he thought the Noble Lord
(Beaumont) was mistaken as to the practice.
Lord BERNERS considered it a duty to endeavour
to make the law as little objectionable as possible, and
would, therefore, inquire whether the Government con-
templated any check upon frivolous and vexatious sur-
charges ? The way in which the tax was assessed in
some parts, in Leicestershire for:one, excited general in-
dignation. There might be one check by allowing the
appellant his expenses. The Noble Lord also suggested
an alteration in regard to the number of commissioners
who had to decide on such cases.
Lord MONTEAGLE agreed that it was desirable to
diminish any oppressive incidents of the tax, but must
say that, considering the circumstances of its introduc-
tion; there being but one gentleman remaining in office
who had been acquainted with the previous tax, nothing
coutel be- more praiseworthy than the moderation and
goatfense with which this law had been generally ad-
ministered.—(Hear.) It would hardly be politic to
diminish the powers for enforcing a tax so easily evaded.
—( [Tear.) But he should be sorry to be considered as
approving of such a tax as this, except upon the ground
of necessity. In great exigencies it was to be regarded
as our great resource; and when the safety and inde-
pendence of the country were concerned, objections
vanished. In fact, it was almost analogous to the press-
gang. But it ought to be reserved for a great occasion,
and especially we ought not to get blindfold into a sys-
tern of perpetuation under cover of a periodical renewal,
without a revision to see how it could be made just and
' equitable.—(Hear.) It was -eten more dangerous when
renewed for only a short period, because at every re-
newal the Government must make sacrifices of other
taxes, not beCause they disapproved them, but
because they were unpopular.—(Hear, hear.) Like
other leases, there was a fine to pay on renewal.—
(Hear.) It was proposed for three years, and we had
had it for nine; it was to produce less than 4,000,0001.
a year, and it had produced above 5,000.0001.; the Go-
vernment asked. for 11,000,0001, and had got 49,000,0001.
—(Hear, hear)—and yet it was to be renewed again.—
(Hear.) And why? Because we had been repealing
various indirect taxes. No doubt 1842 presented a case
of emergency; but, saying nothing of 1842 or 1845, it
was impossible to deny that if we went on after the
fashion of 1848 no one could see any end to the conti-
nuance of the income-tax.--(ilear, hear.) It was pro-
posed now to commute the window-tax for a house-tax.
The repeal of the termer house-tax was forced upon a
most reluctant Government; and when the new house-
tax gut into play, we should have the same agency
brought into action, and ptobably with the same success,
as in the case of the former house-tax. The small as-
sessment of great houses would be produced as a griev-
ance. Great mansions paid heavily to the window-tax,
aunntythe town
country wld s
geemmt;e t
mo
~ payns in a greater proportion
house.—(H. hear.)
i
but, taking the only just' test, the test of value, and not
of cost, the King's Arms or the White Hart in the
from e window-tax
an
of
r.
county
rightgiveto
owould be relief
placed in a position
with a view to purposes of health; butt in this commu-
tation ason the ciuit
now tax
greater danger than the old, and we should have a larger
amount of the public revenue in a
position h
of dge
was
He was satisfied that if they wished to maintain the
public credit, and the ateans of supporting the public
establishments, they could not let the property-tax re-
main on its present footing, at the risk of an adverse
vote of the other House, or of an adverse pressure out of
doors. Last year the Government, with the prospect of
the discontinuance of the property-tax before them, gave
up 1,100,0001. of public revenue, including some 500,0001.
or 600,000/. of stamp duties, for which ho had never
heard any one out of doors express the least thankfulness.
He considered that it would be most dangerous to place
the credit of the country to a great or an increasing ex-
tent upon the foundation of direct taxation. In 1842
his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (Earl
Grey) expressed his sense of this danger, and called
upon Parliament to
tion if the oppressive nature of the income-tax should
consider what would be their situa-
make the country refuse to submit to its continuance,
and how much embarrassment and how much danger to
the national credit such a state of things,would occasion.
He thought when they found the proposition by Govern-
ment of an income-tax for three years met by a resolu-
tion of the other House that it should be continued for
only one, that the results contemplated by his Noble
Frain
approaching, and that next
year
determine that this tax should be
erpdamriiiga hmtenbtemaigchtutally,
altogether discontinued. He wished before he sat down
to call their Lordship's attention to a singular fact.
They had heard it said, and it was not denied on either
side of the,lslouse, that the agricultural interest was at
present suffering the greatest depression, while they had
been told to-eight that the interests of productive in-
dustry, as represented by trade and manufactures, were,
c4sonrethae cdoenaltroanryst,rflatojuonrisohfintg it was in some meet-
h.e
evils incident to the Now
pro-
perty-tax, that that tax upon agricultural
property, even in a time of distress, had gone on auge
menting, while the amount of the same tax derived from
other descriptions of property, trades, professions, and
commercial profits, had diminished, although they were
told those interests were most prooftwos.(He
hear.) He would take the compari
1843 the amount of property assessed to the income-tax
under schedule A, which, he admitted, comprehended
mills, buildings, and other things besides land, was
85,000,0001,, and in 1850 it had risen to 94,000,0004
He found that the property assessed under Schedule D,
which included all the interests admitted to be the most
prosperous, had fallen off from 63,000,0001. in 1843, to
54,000,000/. in 1850.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Stan-
ley.) This ,had taken place concurrently with an in-
crease in the official value of exports from 131,000,0001.
in 1843, le 190,000,000/. in 1849, and an increase in the
value of imports from 70,000,0001. in 1843 to 105,000,0001,
in 1849. Ile considered that the general financial con-
dition of the country was satisfactory, but he thought
they ought carefully to consider whether a tax of the
nature of the property-tax should be continued upon
light grounds, and especially upon a principle which
extended to its perpetuation, or whether they should
not reserve such resources for great and important exi-
gencies.
Earl GREY said be would first answer the question
of the Noble Lord opposite with regard to the mode of
assessing the income-tax. The Noble Lord had stated
that he thought the same remedy ought to be given in
cases of surcharge under the income and property-tax as
in cases of surcharge in the land and assessed taxes,
and that the general body of Commissioners should have
a voice in the matter. In the case of the income-tax
the difficulty had arisen from the secrecy which is bad

that the preamble he postp esed; los rep, aced that the
Hon. and Learned Member for Athlone had nut raised
the question.
Tile Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY. thought it
would be allowed vest to the last moment they had dis-
cussed the postponement of the preamble; and the Hon.
M, !labor for Dublin had moeed that the Ceairman
should rep,,rt progress. fie (the Earl of Arundel and
Surrey) hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw that
motion.—(Hear, hear.) If they divided on the post-
ponement of the preamble, which did not affect any part
of the Bill, he trusted the Government would not press
the Committee to proceed further to-night.
Mr. P. HOWARD begged to add his testimony to
that of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. REYNOLDS stated that none of the appeals
which had been made convinced him he was wrong in
taking a division.
The Committee then divided. The numbers were—
For reporting progress 30
Against it 271
M ,j.)rity 241
The Committee then divided on the question that the
preamble be postponed, when there appeared—
For postponing the preamble ... 253
Against it
Majority —213
On entering the gallery, we found
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY expressing a
hope that the Government would not press !he House
to a consideration of the clauses of the Bill that night.
He trusted they would allow the Chairman to report
progress, and obtain leave to sit again; and, if no one
else did so, he would make a motion to that effect.
Sir G. GREY said, the greater part of the Bill turned
upon the first clause, and it was important that as soon
as possible they should proceed to the consideration of
it. At that hour of the night (20 minutes after 11) it
was not unusual to enter upon business of a similar kind,
and he therefore thought they should proceed
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL appealed to her Majesty's
Ministers whether they could ask the House seriously
to go on with the clauses that night.
Mr. REYNOLDS said, it occurred to him that both
the Noble Lord the Metnber for Arundel and the Hon.
Member for Kerry had claims upon the Government,
for neither of them had voted against Government on
the division before the last. They went to the
library.—(A laugh.) He should be glad to know what',
they gained by going to the library? He did not think.
they were likely to get much information, nor had'
much courtesy bcen extended to them now.—(Hear.)
hear.) What did the 12 or 13 Members who were op-,
posed to the Bill, and who went t o the library, gain by,
going there ? He male these remarks in order that al
few who opposed this Bill of pains and penalties might
see the necessity of sanding together.—(Hear, hear.)
They gained nothing by political gentility ' • they
gained nothing by bowing and scraping to the Trea-
sury benches.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber f.a. Sheffishi had appealed tie him not to press his
motion for the Chairman reporting progress, but he
could not, as a Catholic Member, acquiesce in that
view. He should like to knew what the Honourable
Member for Sheffield had gained by the course he had
taken ? Why, the Right Honourable Gentleman (Sir
George Grey) refused to postpone the consideration of
the measure till another day. He gave the Government
notice, however, that, without pursuing any course
that could be called factious—(A laugh)—there was a
sufficient number of honest men in the minority to pre-
vent their passing a single clause that night—(Rear,
hear)—no matter how many divisions might be necessary
for that puroose.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, the lion. Gentleman had asked
what he gained by doing what was right?—(Hear, hear.)
He would reply that he believed a large majority of the
people of both countries would acknowledge that they
were honestly opposing this Bill when they acted on the
principle of the Constitution as embodied in the rules
and laws laid down by Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) Any
attempt to render those rules mischievous must tend to
injure the great cause of constautional government.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not mean to express the slightest
disrespect for the strong feeling of Irish Members on
this question; but they would do well to consider the
strong feelings of English Members, who had fought the
great battle of constitutional government in that House
before there were any Catholic Members from Ireland
connected with it.—(Hear, hear.) He recollected well
that Mr. O'Connell never acted in the way now pro•
posed; and, though in 1833 and at other times he was
nominally beaten in that House, his victory over
the Treasury Bench was nevertheless most significant
and striking.—(Hear, hear.) He must say, however,
to the Government that there was good reason for post-
poning the clauses of the Bill. The alterations had
been made suddenly, and it was but fair that time
should be given to consider fully the bearings of the
measure. He hoped the Government would give the Irish
Members no reason to say that they were opposed by a
tyrant majority, but that they would afford them at least
twelve hours to consider the clauses so suddenly intro-
duced into the measure.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS said, reference -had been made to a
tyrant majority, but he would ask the House whether
they could hot conceive such a combination as would
justify the appellation of a tyrant minority?—(Hear.)
Repeated divisions had been taken—in one instance he
b• lieved the majority was nine to one—and he must say
that, in such circumstances, it might be the duly of the
Government to protect the House against a tyrant
minority.—(Hear.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY expressed his
extreme regret that any Catholic Member should have
said one word against any Protestant Member who sup-
ported their cause in that House, still more against one
who had supported it with so much ability, zeal, and dis-
cretion as the Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield
had done. He trusted the Government would yield to
the appeal which that Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
made to them.
Sir F. THESIGER hoped the Government would ac-
cede to the application. It was important that they
should do so. Government had adopted the amend-
ment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Midhurst,
making a declaratory enactment in the Bill applying
merely to the rescript of the Pope of the 29th Septem-
ber, 1850: the Solicitor-General had said, in answer to
Mr. Gladstone, although that declaratory enactment
applied solely to England, that it would have such an
effect upon the law that the judges in Ireland would
feel themselves bound by it, and would consider any
similar brief in Ireland to be illegal and void. He (Sir
F. Thesiger) assumed from that statement that it was
the intention of the Government that any similar brief
in Ireland should be deemed illegal and void. If so, it
would be better that that intention should be declared on
the face of the Bill. It had therefore occurred to him
desirable to introduce an amendment into the first
clause, to make it apply not merely to the particular
brief to which it was at present directed, but to all
similar briefs and re scripts both in England and I, eland.
It would be impossible to enter into the consioeration of
that amendment at the preser t time. He therefore
hoped the Government would accede to the appeal that
had been made to them for allowing tho Chairman to
report progress.
Mr. GE ACH said he had hitherto voted against the
Bill, having been pledged to do so, but he did not feel it
right to join in the course taken by the Hon. Member
for Dublin, which he considered was frittering away the
time of the country without any practical use.
Sir G. GREY said that after the division, considering
that the previous discussion had turned very much on
the first clause, be thought it was the duty of the Go-
vernment to ask the Committee, having regard to the
public time, which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Geach)
bad properly said should enter into their consideration,
to go on and make some further progress with the Bill.
But, as time was now passing, any discussion that might
now tike place it was clear could lead to no practical
result in the way of advancing the measure to night.
It was true the Bill was not delivered to Members be-
fore that morning, and that certainly was a ground for
acceding to the proposal for reporting progress; he
therefore only hoped that on coming to the Bill on
Friday next, which was the first day they could ap-
proach it, they would be allowed to go into Committee
,at five o'clock, and then proceed with the consideration
of the clauses.
The House then resumes; and the Chairman re-
ported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Fri-
!day next.
The Hainault Forest Bill, and the sale of Arsenio
Regulation Bill were severally considered in Committee.
The Appoinimeet to offices, &c., Bill passed through
Committee, and the report was brought up and ordered
to be received.

CUSTOMS BILL.
On the moti ,n for the second reading,
Mr. lIERRIES appealed to the Government not to
preis so importint a measure at so late an hour, when
many Hon. Members who were opposed to the Bill were
absent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it
v.ei rather a hard task Hon. Members imposed on
%row. The Right Honourable Gentleman blamed him
,t
wasforbringing on the Bill. The last night
Motion with
'Exck_qupr before the House he (the Chancellor of the
Bill because
i had been blamed for not proposing the
Re-
peal Bill was readdwrasausneoepopnodsetidm.e.He would postpone it.
The Gunpowder Stores (Liverpool) Exemption
to Leavewas
*the right of the Crown to deer in the New
extinguish given to Lord SEYMOUR to bring in a Bill
Forest, and for other purposes; and the Bill was brought
in and
the motionread a firsto
time,Ai
On
S. HERBERT, the Select Com-
mittee
eHla3wasesse,ngAerdsmiralt
Smith,wles, Viscount Mel-
Bwoas nominated i —Mr.
Mr. William
c i e tn e n t oi:a
Mr.th
gund, Mr. Adderley, Mr. Vernon
, Mr. Willcox, and
Nliles, Mr. Divest, Lord Naas, Mr.
Birch, Mr.
the Select
Sergeant Murphy,
was
saiprpinted :
Sir John Youoltligo,:oirf Tshiromviras.
Smith, Georger
Mronlletnhleeyto.
Committee on Annuity-tax (Edinburgh)
—Sir William Gibson Craig, Mr. Tufnell
Clerk, Mr. Deedes, Mr. John Benjamin
Bouverie, Mr. Forbes Mackenzie, Viscount Mel and
Mr. Heald, Dr. Power, Sir David Dundas, g Mr'
Smollett, Mr. Bunbury, Mr, Edward Ellice, and Mr..
Adderley.
On the motion of Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL, )fir,
Keogh was substituted for the Earl of Arundel and
Surrey on the Mortmain Committee.
ate, before On© o'clock.
The House adjourned at

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 19.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took ili3 seat upon the Wool
at 103 o'clock.

.:!-.. .

,~yu.i i 4 ~~~


THE SVN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 20, lB5l.

pb erec
sne
rcvoen
wtehr e
rde,
gar -
to justly_
matters of a private and confilential nature. Accord-
ingly the Act had provided that seven Commissioners
should be selected from the Commissioners of Land and
theex caancstid"eci' profits iladn vdisabl business to
Assessed Taxes, to whom au appeal should be made in
the first instance, with an appeal, if desired, to a special
commissioner. He was afraid that the appeal could not
be carried further consistently with an income-tax,
and with that secrecy which was due to the private
affsirs of individuals.—(llesr, hear.) With regard to
the observation of the Noble Lord who had last
spoken, he was not about to express any opinion
very different from that which he had formerly ex-
pressed as to the objectionable character of the income-
tax as a fixed tax. He had expressed that opinion very
strongly in 1842, and he still entertained that opinion;
but at the same time he was bound to say that experience
had convinced him that the immense advantage procured
to the country by means of the income-tax was worth
the sacrifice which bad been made for that purpoie.—
(Hear.) The Noble Lord had remarked that the income-
tax had been calculated only at 3,500,000/., and for three
years; while it had produced upwards of 5,000,000/,
and had been continued for nine years. It was the pro-
ductiveness of the tax boyond what was anticipated that
formed one of the reasons why he should be reconciled

PARLIAMENT

.
to its being imposed. In 1842 his opinion was, that for
so small an amount as 3,000,000/., it was hardly worth
while to resort to so objectionable a tax as an income-
tax; but when, in consequence of its greater productive-
ness, the Government were enabled to mike reforms in
our financial system, that result was one well calculated
to alter the opinions he at the time entertained. It was
with extreme astonishment that he had heard the Noble
Lord opposite assert that the imposition of the income-
tax had enabled the Government only to get rid of taxa-
tion the relief from which had been felt by no one—
Lord STANLEY—I spoke with reference to the pro-
posed reduction in the timber and coffee duties.
Earl GREY—The statement of his Noble Friend near
him (the Marquis of Lansdowne) appeared to him con-
clusive as to the advantages which the country had de-
rived from our late commercial policy. His Noble
Friend had told them that putting the income-tax out of
the question, the amount of taxes remitted since 1842
had been not less than 10,000,000/., and that notwith-
standing such a remission the loss of income did not ex-
ceed 700,0001.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed he might say that
by the remission of taxes which never went into the
Exchequer, but which fettered trade, the total amount
of relief given was not over-estimated at 20,000,0001.
(Elear, hear.) He should not follow the Noble Lord
through all the taxes to which he alluded, and which he
thought ought not to have been repealed. He was,
however, surprised that his Noble Friend should have
adverted to the reduction of the stamp duties as an
alteration not worth the sacrifice of income it had en-
tailed. It was the fate of Chancellors of the Exche-
quer to bo very little thanked for their services, but his
Right Hon. Friend had considered what was best for
the public, and had deemed the alteration worth the sa-
crifice. It had been admitted that the schedule of
stamp duties was one full of injustice and inequality—
that it pressed on smaller transactions in a manner that
rendered these transactions frequently impossible, and
that it placed obstructions in the way of transfers of
property, and other commercial and business transac-
tions. By a small sacrifice of revenue the stamp duties
had been placed on a fair footing, and the reports re-
ceived from solicitors throughout the country proved that
the effect of the alteration had been relief to an almost
incalculable extent on transactions among persons in the
humbler ranks of life. The full benefit of such reduc-
tions might not be reaped at first, but their Lordships
might depend upon it that every obstruction taken out of
the free career of industry and enterprise was at no dis-
taut period productive of the most beneficial effects.
Amongst all reductions which had been made he
believed few were likely to be more beneficial
than the alteration of the stamp duties. He thought
the Noble Lord opposite must in what he had stated
on this subject have entirely misunderstood what
had fallen from his Noble Friend near him. The Noble
Lord had represented the proposal of Government as
implying a determination gradually to get rid of duties
on customs, and to trust for revenue entirely to direct
taxation. Where the Noble Lord found grounds for
such an interpretation of his Noble Friend's speech he
was at a loss to know, for his Noble Friend had specially,
guarded himself against saying anything that could jus-
tify such an implication. Perhaps their Lordships
would allow him to state what he conceived to be the
real principle of this Bill. Ho considered the object of
the Bill, not to be to get rid of custom duties as distin-
guished from other indirect taxes, but to get rid of those
taxes, whether of custom or of excise, which were ob-
structions to the industry of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
He might remind the Noble Lord that a very large por-
tion of the revenue which had been sacrificed in conse-
quence of the income-tax .had been derived, not from
custom, but from excise duties ; and that the reduction
of the duties on bricks and on glass had been no incon-
siderable items of relief. Never had two articles of tax-
ation been so judiciously relieved. Their Lordships were
all aware of the brilliant display in connexion with the
manufacture of glass that the metropolis exhibited at this
moment. The improvement in the manufacture of glass
had been going on, for the last few years, from day to
day; and dated from the time when the exciseman 's in-
terference was put an end to in the works. Although
the reduction of the brick duty had only been made last
year, still it had been most beneficial. A landowner
himself, and, like others, feeling the pressure of the
times, be was yet sensible of the advantage of the reduc-
tion of the brick duty with reference to buildings and
useful works. With respect to the proposed reduction of
the duties on coffee and timber the Noble Lord opposite
seemed to think that the consumer would not be be-
nefited. Only on Saturday last he had read in a news-
paper the circular of one of the largest commercial
houses in this country as to the effect of the alteration
of the timber duty. Though the Bill had not yet passed,
the reduction had been in operation for some weeks,
and the statement of the firm to which he alluded was,
that as regarded colonial timber there had been no re-
duction in price. He was fully prepared for that, because
for some years the import of colonial timber bad been con-
fined to timber of a peculiar quality which the Baltic timber
seldom came into competition with. But, as regarded
Baltic timber, the circular stated that the consumer in
many cases benefited to the extent of two-thirds of the
reduction of duty, in other cases to the extent of a half,
and in some cases to the whole extent of the reduction.
He believed that that was even more than the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had calculated upon as the im-
mediate effect of his proposal. The extraordinary ac-
tivity in all those trades in which timber was much used
—such as ship-building—proved the advantage which
would be gained to the consumer by the alteration. With
regard to coffee, the Noble Lord thought that the reduc-
tion of the duty would be injurious to the colonies. He
had bad communications with persons growers of coffee
in the colonies, and though it was not usual for persons
engaged in a particular occupation to recognise the re-
duction of any protection enjoyed by them, yet none of
the persons had said that any disadvantage would
result to them from the proposal in question. Ceylon
alone produced a larger amount of coffee than this
country consumed, but the protection it enjoyed was
utterly valueless, for the surplus produce regulated the
price. On the other hand, tho reduction of both duties
would be of the first value to the Ceylon planter, be-
cause it would extend consumption. The Noble Lord
had complained that the Government had done nothing
to check the adulteration of coffee, but had rather fa-
voured it than otherwise. Not only the present Go-
vernment, but also that of which the Noble Lord had
bean a member, had found it impossible by restrictions
or by excise interference to prevent adulteration. The
other day, when visiting the Geological Museum, ho saw
some specimens of very pure chalk, and was informed
that it was used for adulterating the best Durham mus-
tard. He believed the only remedy was for the con-
sumer to deal only with the respectable trades-
man, who sold a genuine article; but as regarded coffee
the present measure, as far as it went, would check
adulteration; for any reduction of the price of the real
article must hold out less inducement to substitute for it
an adulterated compound. He did not think it would
be advisable to establish an exciseman in every grocer's
shop in the kingdom to prevent the adulteration of
coffee. He should add, with regard to the continuance
of such a tax as the income-tax for a single year, that
he concurred in the observations of the Noble Lord
who spoke last. It was a dangerous measure, but it
was one for which the Government were not responsible.
After a few words in explanation from Lord BER -
NERS,
Their Lordships adjourned.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS

;From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.

MONDAY, MAY 19.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION BILL.
(IN THE COMMITTEE.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Pre-
amble be postponed :" Whereupon Motion made, and Ques-
tion put, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask
leave to sit again." The Committee divided :

MINORITY—AYES, 46.
Armstrong, Sir A. Howard, I'. H. O'Flaherty, Anthony
Arundel, Earl of Hutchins, E. J. Power, Dr.
Barron, Sir U. Keating, Robert Power, Nicholas
Blake, M. J. Lawless, Cecil Roche, E. B.
Burke, Sir Thothas M"Cullagh, W. Sadleir, John
Corbally, M. E. Megan, W. IL Salwey, Colonel
Crawford, W. S. Maher, N. Scully, Francis
mer s, J
Michael
. P.
Devereux, J. T. Meagher, Thomas So
Duncombe, T. Mahon, O'Gorman
sunivan,
J.ll.
Fagan, James Moore, George 11. Vane, Talbot,Lord '
•
11.
Fox, Richard M. Morgan, H. R. Wall, C. B.
Fox, W. J. Murphy, F. S.
Grace, 0. D. Nugent, Sir PercY
TELLERS.
Grattan, Henry O'Brien, J. Keogh, William
Greene, John O'Brien, Sir T.
-Reynolds, John
Higgins, G. G.
liorainan, Edward O'Connor, Feargla
---
-
• O'Connell, John

EXIIIBITION.

Were it to be asked—What is there for Parliament
still to do, and why should it sit till the middle of August,
there are people who would be at no loss for a reply.
There are people, that is to say, who at all times and
seasons, and under all possible circumstances, will advise
the immediate commencement of the must arduous un-
dertakings, to be pressed with the greatest rapidity, in
the face of the most formidable obstacles. What is
there for Parliament to do! Parliament has to reform
itself. Parliament has to deliver the administration of
law from abuses a thousand years old. Parliament has
to give the metropolis what it has not—municipal insti-
tutions. Parliament has to solve a hundred, problems
that have long been vexing the brains of journalists,
eel converting shiploads of good paper into unreadable
pamphlets. Consult these people, and at twelve o'clock
on any Saturday night they would have the Cabinet
summoned and Parliament assembled for the immediate
enactment of household suffrage and vote by ballot. On
the principle that good deeds are never out of season,
they would have Parliament set about the entire recon-
struction of tho British Constitution at the very moment
when it is difficult to muster a House for any purpose
whatever. We are perfectly aware that we shall not
please all men by suggesting the consideration of time I
and place; but believing, as we do, that there is a time
for all things, and that opportunity is one of the first
conditions of success, we must say that just now it is
not very easy to answer the question, " What is there
for Parliament still to do, and why should it sit till the I
middle of August?"
The Great Exhibition has killed everything else. The
Court, the two Houses of Parliament, the nobility, the
gentry, the commonalty, the army, the police, carriages,
cabs, and omnibusses are all dancing attendance upon
it. The shops are unfrequented. The places of public
amusement are comparatively deserted. Even the rail-
ways lose their summer excursionists. Hampton Court
and Greenwich exhibit in vain their horse chestnuts in
bloom and their whitebait in season. -We question
whether even the great Derby-day will attract so large
a traction of a million as it has usually done. The
tall plant in Hyde-park has smothered everything in its
neighbourhood. The Exhibition is London; the Exhi-
bition is the Parliament; it is the British empire; it is
house and home; it is drawing-room and study; it is
p arterre, conservatory, and promenade; it is park and
club; it is shop and bazaar, theatre, picture gallery,,
panorama—everything, in a word, which a man,
or a woman wants in the metropolis. The
possessor of a season ticket, with a small surplus for
cabs, or, in default thereof, a good pair of,
legs, is set up for the season. In a palace large:
enough to be a glass-case for Versailles, or Windsor
Castle, filled with all that is ingenious, precious, beauti-
ful, curious, or rare, he walks at large, monarch of all be
surveys. From the regalia of Indian dynasties to the
last invention of European science—from the rude manu-
factures of people who dwell by the desert, or under the
Mountains of the Moon, to the patent for separating the
long and short fibres of wool, which is to found a new
family of millionaires, everything that the eye can gaze
on or the mind can comprehend, invites admiration.
There is no door to be opened—no wants intimated—no
importunity to be repelled—no purchases expected. To
all appearance some twenty or thirty thousand of this
metropolis have resolved to enjoy themselves in this
palace till they are compelled to be content with two
days in the week, or to be lost in a crowd still larger
than themselves. But such days and such insatiable
wanderings are very exhaustive. Even two or three
hours amid " the hum of nations" is enough to knock
up a strong man ; and we question whether, since the
war, there ever was such an amount of physical and
mental fatigue as there has been in this metropolis every
evening since the first of this month.
Parliament cannot continue to sit with any effect in the
face of so powerful a rival, and with so great a drain on
the strength of legislators as well as of all other classes.
June and July, too, have other attractions, which will
begin to hold up their heads and exert their influence,
should the novelty of the Exhibition wear off. The
season will probably be one of more than usual hospi-
tality; for there is hardly a family of any position or
means in the country that will not find its way to town.
With so much to distract, and so much to fatigue, it is
useless to say that Members of Parliament ought to be
at their posts, to make a House when wanted, to support
their party, and do other political drudgery. They
ought perhaps, but nevertheless they will not. The
session will be the struggle of a sleepy man under a long
• and heavy sermon. He may open his eyes, shake him-
self, and pinch himself, but all to no purpose. After a
hundred convulsive efforts at attention, he will be utterly
unable to state either the text or the subject of the dis-
, course. He will have lost an hour, and gained nothing
but the discredit of an involuntary inattention. Perhaps
the House of Commons ought to do more this session;
but, in matter of fact, it will do no more. It will only
waste its time, and injure its character by an obstinate
and slovenly perseverance in its duties, when it has
neither the heart nor the strength for them. Under such
circumstances the sooner it shuts up shop the better for
itself, and the better eventually for the business of the
country.— Times.