The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-03 00:00:00

THE PENSION LIST.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY gave notice that on ➢londay next
he should move a call of the house, as he intended to bring
the subject of the Pension List before their attention.

CHURCH TEMPORALITIES—IRELAND BILL.
Mr. IN TTLETON said that he intended to bring
some amendments in. the Church Temporalities Bill before
the house, which, would afford assistance to the commis-
sioners appointed to collect the levies made by vestries.
What he had to propose, therefore, was, that the Treasury
should be at liberty to advance 100,0001., to be repaid
at such periods, and upon such a rate of interest, as
should be agreed upon. (Hear, hear.) There were
several important. amendments and regulations, but he
would not occupy the house by entering at length into
them. With respect to the deanery of Down, he had this
day laid on the table of the house a copy of the
Order of the King in Council upon the subject, which de-
tailed the plan thathad been recommended, from which it ap-
peared the income of the rectors and curates of the pa-
rishes had. been increased from 1121. to 340/., and that
after making the necessary deductions for those increases,
the dean had been left with an income of 1,040/.
Upon the motion being put that the 100,000/. be ad-
vanced--

Mr. O'CONNELL considered this to be the proper
time for him particularly to call the attention of the house
to more substantial defects in this act than had yet been
pointed out. The right hon. gentleman and the house
ought to be aware that this act had given no relief to
Ireland, except as to the church rates, and that the act of
the 7th of George IV., commonly called Goulburn's Act,
ought to be repealed. By leaving the statute as it was
they could only expect to have the civil war about church
rates continued. He trusted, therefore, that the right
hon. gentleman would either bring in or support a bill
with that object. If they did not pass some such measure
it was useless to talk about the chapter of Irish grievances
that had been done away with. For his own part he saw
no evidence of it except in a few marginal scratches which
left the chapter untouched, and in the equitable Billings-
gate which had been talked elsewhere.
Mr. O'REILLY objected to the charge of any church
expenditure whatever upon the public funds. He should
also oppose the proposition with regard to bishops' leases.
Mr' LEFROY said it was open to the hon. members to
give notice of a substantive motion for repealing or amend-
ing the act, but not to adopt so unusual a course as to mix
up such a question with one like that now before thehouse.
Mr. Grattan, Mr. Ruthven, Mr. Walker, Mr. O'Con-
nell, and Mr. O'Reilly each spoke briefly in deprecation of
the practice with regard to bishops' leases, and mentioned
cases in which hardships had arisen to tenants who had
been deprived of their leases after laying out large sums
upon their farms in the expectation of renewal.
Mr. HUME said that before the house was called upon
to vote away a sum of money of this amount they ought to
be informed what measures the Government intended to
introduce for the permanent settlement of the grievances
complained of by Ireland. He wished to know also whe-
ther it was intended to call every year upon the house for
similar advances to the present.
Mr. LITTLETON stated that by the operation of the
Church Temporalities Act of last session it was calculated
that funds to the amount of 170,0001. would be in the
hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, subject to lia-
bilities and- charges amounting to about 103,0001. The
loan of 100,0001. now called for was on account of the
vestry cess, and would be repaid in a very short period.
Mr. HUME observed that as it appeared the loan was
to be required for so very short a period, what necessity
was there for charging it on the consolidated fund? His
own real belief was that if this 100,0001. were once ob-
tained in the way proposed the people and that house would
never hear of it again. (Hear, hear.) He should propose,
commissioners for the issue of exchequer bills in Ireland,
qbuyitrhede
sthheoruere
ldfobe paid, not .naoytoof amendment,
fendm
theceonnt oltihdaatt etdh feu nsudm, but re
awe-hto,byin t e
which otrhdei
yn
were
eo uerms ep, 0
v,u,ne
rdeecri t he
would
take
ef
care the
to
The hon. mem ei having
b • moved this amendment, again
eceived upon it until repaid.
obtain sufficient security for its repayment, interest at the
to come forward manfully
in
cation of Ireland.
pajeers teye'ns t .mbi ministers
Lord ALTHORP thought it was not a matter of much
aungr-destate what measures they had to propose for the pacifi-
rate
dof
hfiosurm
in the manner proposed,the amendment of
or according to
importance whether the sum required was to be advanced
the h hon. member for Middlesex. He believed, however,
that'the Commissioners for the issue of Exchequer Bills in
Ireland had now a sufficient sum at their command to make
the loan of 100,000/.
Mr. HUME observed that if between the Commis-
sioners for the issue of Exchequer Bills in England and in
Ireland they could not raise the amount, the house ought to
authorise them to make a larger issue for that purpose. •
Mr. ROBINSON thought that when called upon for a
vote of this kind they should receive some assurance or in-
formation upon the subject of the loan of 100,0001. for-
merly advanced on account of the Irish Church Tempora-
lities.
Lord ALTHORP could only repeat the assurance he
had given last Sessionupon the subject as to its repayment.
M.. O'CONNELL was sorry to hear the noble lord
give any assurance of the kind. That sum of money,
which was last session voted as a sort of peaceoffering, could
only be reobtained by reviv;ng all the miseries and renew-
in all the scenes of bloodshed and violence which had so
g
long distracted Ireland.
Mr. LITTLETON explained.
After a few observations from Mr. SINCLAIR and

Mr. HUME in explanation, the resolution, as amended
by Mr. Hume, was put and agreed to without a division.
The house then resumed, and the report was ordered to
be received on Monday.
LIBERTY OF THE PRESS.

On the Motion for the reading of the order of the day
for the second reading of the Irish Tithes Bill,
Mr. HUME inquired of the noble lord (Althorp)
whether the Government intended to persist in filling the
prisons with persons convicted of selling unstamped news-
papers, or whether they proposed mitigating any of the
penalties of the act under which such prosecutions were
instituted ?

Lord ALTHORP replied that the whole subject of
matters affecting the liberty of the press was now before a
committee up stairs. The act to which the hon. member
alluded would doubtless come under the consideration of that
committee, but until their report was received, he thought
it premature to enter into any discussion upon the subject.
Mr. H. GRATTAN presented several petitions from
different parts of Ireland, with signatures amounting alto-
gether to 14,000, against the Irish Tithes Bill.
Similar petitions were presented by Mr. FITZGERALD
and Mr. Fllkui from Louth and Kilkenny.

TITHES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. LITTLETON, in rising to move the second read-
ing of this bill, observed that whatever alteration it might
be deemed advisable to make in its details, it would be
more convenient to postpone their consideration till thebill
came to be committed. There were one or two alterations
which it was proposed by the government to make in it
which he would now take the liberty of hinting at. The
house would be aware that it had been originally proposed
to institute a commission for estimating and settling the rate
'of composition in various parts throughout the country. It
was now his intention to propose, when the bill went into
c
adopted.
m m it t e e ,Atnhoatt a uniform h e r
alteration
vh
cf
hls perh
he had
dc etnot should
p.
roposb
e wase
in the case when the amount of commutation was increased
in certain districts, as in the county of Down, by taking
into consideration certain glebe or abbey lands, which,
being naturally free from tithe, should also be exempted
from the payment of any compensation under this act. It
would, however, be the duty of the commissioners to have
very strong prima facie evidence before them, that such
grounds of exemption existed before they admitted such
claims. He would also propose that the commissioners of
woods and forests should be invested with a power of is-
suing a commission to value the lands. Besides, it was
proposed to have a conveyancing office in Dublin, for the
purpose of carrying the objects of the bill into effect.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL objected to the bill as not cal-
culated to satisfy the Irish people, or even raise the cha-
racter of the Government. The fund appropriated to the
'church should be preserved to it ; further than that the
Government should not go. (The hon. gentleman then
entered into a long and off-repeated history of the evils of
tithes in Ireland ; the partial insurrections they produced
from 1735 ; the various measures of amendment proposed,
including Mr. Goulburn's Act ; all of which he said failed
in their effect.) Heretofore one-tenth of the produce was
appropriated to the church, but now the charge was to be
on the rental, whether the rental were according to the
value of the land or not. The hon. member then pro-
ceeded to show the great inequality of the assessment in
the various parts of the country, in some places ss. being
assessed on an acre rented at 40s. ; in other places only
4d. on an acre rented at 40s.
Mr. R. S. CAREW would move as an amendment the
postponement of the motion for a week, in order to enable
the rleht o. hon. Secretary to reconsider it. The noble lord'
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) stated, on introducing
his English Tithe Bill, that he would regulate the tithe by
an ad valorem estimate of the land. The same principle,
he (Mr. Carew) contended, should be extended to Ireland.
(Hear, hear.) He would state one fact as illustrative of
the necessity of having some well-defined and well-under-
stood enactment on this teasing and complicated subject.
In a parish in his county (Wexford) the people were of
opinion, as they seemed too generally to be, that if they
absented themselves from vestry they could not be assessed.
The clergyman offered to compound for 4501. a-year, but
the parishioners kept aloof from the vestry, in the fancy
that they would escape the tithe altogether. The clergy-
man then sent up a notification to the Castle of Dublin ;
and the Government accordingly despatched a cominis-
sioner, who assessed the tithes at 5001.

Mr. FINN objected to the motion as one that would lay
a tax on catholic property for the support of a protestant
church.

Mr. WARD said it was doubtful whether the present
provisions of the bill were good for the church or not.
Colonel DAVIES said the bill was unjust in principle,
and would be inefficient in its operation. The honourable
member quoted from the evidence of Mr. Delacour, a
protestant ; Mr. Doyle, a Roman catholic prelate ; and a
presbyterian minister, to show that the plan' proposed of
making the tithes payable out of the rent would be attended
with the worst effects. For what were all these sacrifices
made ? To support religion ? No, but to support an
established church. And what had been their effect with
respect to that church ? Why, in one hundred and thirty
years the members of that church had only increased in
numbers 600,000, while the persecuted Roman catholics
had increased in the same period 5,700,000. He admitted
tells
tastbtlhi
sehreedwcehr ew
rine
ha ny good ;
but men
human
amongustu rethe
wasc lestrgiuy
ho theuf
m
an
whether under lawn or black or other sleeves, and the
clergy practised hardships in respectoftithesthaet in no
withway
sincreased
hem oo rnigthioriginal
theiral
W motion
hWhat
hn eor would popularity.
otd with
ptlhreoe
pwo saes
amendment,pleasedwas
thinanenoi
dtthhte
to
would support neither ; but at the proper period h would
move an amendment to read the bill a second time that
day
take one shilling from existing incumbents, but as they fell
off to limit the established church to the wants of its 'lock.
Mr. LITTLETON said, it was quite clear that if some
measure was not adopted to prevent the loss of the pro-
perty, and the church establishment was to be reduced in
the way proposed, the property in a few years would be
gone. That, he was quite sure, could not be the inten-
tion of the hon. and gallant member ; and, therefore, he
regretted that he had not stated his view. His hon. friend
the member for Kildare had read a series of resolutions
which he said he had intended to propose had the rules of
the house permitted him. In the first of these resolutions
complaint was made of the intricacy of the measure. He
(Mr. Littleton) must admit that since he had been in
office he had considered two or three plans more simple
than that which he had adopted ; but on examination he
had found their very simplicity the cause of great injus-
tice. In fact, the property was in so complicated a state
that a simple plan must do injustice, for it could not meet
the many peculiarities. The next complaint was fixing
the redemption of tithes upon the value of composition.
He contended, however, that the course taken was the best
possible one. If the bill of his right hon. friend (Mr.
Goulburn) for the composition of tithes had been com-
pulsory there would have been a perfect basis for redemp-
tion. As it was, the bill of his right hon. friend (Mr.
Stanley) had done much to cure the defect. It was true
many objections had been made to the adoption of the com-
positions as value, but he must say they appeared to him
invalid. "`lt was true that many exceptions had been made
by the commissioners to the nominal value, but those
exceptions had been well founded. (Hear.) The right
honourable gentleman went through a number of the
exceptions, and said that the practical actual result of the
proceedings of the commissioners was that the estimated
value was below the nominal value in two instances to one
in which the nominal value was lower than the estimated
value. His hon. friend, the member for Kildare, had
favoured him with a copy of his resolutions. The second
appeared to him founded upon a proposition of his noble
friend (Lord Althorp) in the English Tithe Bill : but he
would ask his hon. friend whether if there had been a long
established composition in a considerable portion of the
country, he would have adopted any such system of ave-
rage ? And further, it was the great inequality of tithes
in Ireland that rendered an average valuation impracticable,
unless great injustice was to be inflicted. The right hon.
gentleman explained, as on a previous occasion, several
of
the causes of the irregularity. The next proposition of his
hon. friend was to fix the rent charge at once, not leaving
five years open. If the landlords preferred that plan, he
did not at all know that he should object to it. The fourth
proposition he had adopted, and doubtless he drew it from
erienologvpedi eventsg theeat
greatly
of Governmentthefirst wouldTTithe
e
the same source as his hon. friend. The fifth proposition
was that the land tax arising opottntseietoicloasfenststaridttehiydnetysosheoaro:urtsolh.d be re-
deemed on ten years' purchase. Now he (Mr. Littleton)
d
dhha
nooa dndi
he
friend
duty
eotnyeil
fivdhre
afin
dynl effortdy nannd succeedede
ft.
fully,
l procureyH,eac
do duof 1, somelt
hgg
those
eod alwhot aeh ohu
returnsa
dphoa
d nbtt
eihles aehnt
power
head,m:so.erigel
trouble theushi
ts
fwahonohr
and the
house
hoaa tithenetnee
y.liinfluence
Haou had sold
further.csoode ddtLof
Aoynreto
excite
capufilpitel•
stand the consequ,eannedes.
thought if the right lion. gentleman
other public service he still would have
Composition Bill
who had brought it forward had never performed
ample cause afra
thought 4s.gh t
pride. When the hon. member talked of an average
payment of tithes, he would ask him to rememberthe
6d.
the an
4d. acre,
the anddea in
dearest.
another(A 14dau.gah no acroe
great inequalities and the injustice which must necessarily
result from such a measure. He himself paid in one in-
stancehe meant in proportion to the value of the land. (Hear,
hear.) Though he would advocate the present proposition,
'f and
course
he yet
he would strenuously dissent from any measure which
contemplated an appropriation of the church property
other than the present. He would, at the same time, not
withdraw his approbation from the effect of the Composition
Act, which did away with the agistment in the south of
Ireland. -
Lord CLEMENTS said that when the government
professed itself determined not to be intimidated from the
collection, he also hoped it was resolved not to be intimi-
dated from the appropriation of tithes. (Cheers.) He
had his doubts whether the present bill was the best mode
which could be adopted 'for realizing the property of the
church. (Hear, hear.) The measure, in his mind, was
not only compliated, but the difficulties by which the
question was beset were continued by a succession of acts
which would be found useless in their application to Ire-
land. It was certain beyond the possibility of doubt that
Ireland would not be satisfied with the bill. (Loud cheers
from the Irish members.) Of the effects of compulsory

1

lmbaelnantdt'
eat..'nrienioatllmeblvd3dyohirney
idtl I'ol It eedy.
cesooninntseppcs'ei n in Ireland he would state one insta
of a
depsaitotriioshucweehhpiutct.h
(vtHiotleueanirti,taerhuielmyarho.eff)netrerdeq7louor/(:dasstoeaftlit,alleia.d'tri,eraiiatepees„tprtr,,,,,
nee. oat
tftfiihr•ii.oeiesmi,igd snehrlrte:l.csi•_,Arnioho,ssrohasuetetr,g h t the
fair, and to complyyet this very Pf::,
under the compulsorypy Commutation Act, produced I,tor•',.
being 309/. more than the incumbent had previously east
Would such on art,
factory
otpphoeedterropsha
neeb.ltnieutipnsohc.etseshtarru:prelhuosstetam.remuodvde;
imdb?aeybnded(trlfcsitoe.hhr)e,ebe%li
rscl
.1
ihi.
oib)clehef oafirrneeend
annual
caeles
da house,othxeio u s bt eo i sva,
tittle:
5,
evils
,i,
.stssildebtot,vhheol iv.ffbaueea.oniie3itencl:eusdesclibtoaamlioiitdxnwasix.
oton.
ooiviewtosfaetoui
content
nbrsvoote,abt.fdiailhv.
a-
%eute
t.
eitihzte,
hepui
Inistqgcoauihy question
om.aeladdnsseotogoabi
thloinshe.
changing
nugr one
it
wtoil .
ini
ielcych oi
tnn
us
name
te
al eel :nee:o:re icie
(co f the
tia
as the question before them was, whether Ireland woo,
he
wwtieollliul.
ellldrvn.rmooLuiai FR 0 Y was of opinion
average,l6oop el. irLtititehile'Oexinicoche,clo4,llfite
measure, as regarded the redemption, would
ili,e'd 're,
T
ieooahiersol
tN:hsnafsh.
nhemeneNde4
at!ih:bo
ovrerhpld
It:,
o:,e
effecto
drirolhsofiro
0.
at liinfi
:enwoatioaasesorelrhlecdti.i
riisu,i_o(i..pKoteeietuclfhieanrilnotegspiiaTdyairiixletn,ein,ihriphhootcnidetageief:efhim:.:iptnl.aeeheechheilfedblts,sohteeaaoiuetsebtefgestl
)01
rtrdhirlitluitoohivefaeoin
ihereitflasyaectifhtoy(eelesillttatpnritesiireta
gicpee,di
ihreennescodtii
oer.eiego:osftarsarpoi
ni
vthts,enerpt„,noyasfeo,ee.obreed.
:a
ssslii,
doitarteeert..ite:,tns,lsdaei.afht
0:
nss!
tet,itla,
erif:tijulierieithehrhesonb
e.i.
nu,:
~,isti
or
ern'
eir
cb,io he
that
1 ,et,,.
~
000,0_,:i
41e
mthelf
la
rruoeionrngnma.tet:fewhirst
friend
do.
etuu,
noltdtdHa
on
nxhe
ntedetehnei denied
whole,t h aeettucPhentieeinpr3onlarndeleansainintaa'e'atbhullnloi. Ireland the
nc
e
wm2poaoaoruielnl.dcti.ewhnaai
tvnheceEn
oonfotahned c. h u
Somerch wereap
rdoi spprrmotpi
oourtsi o
utn attgetbbteibiec i
nt 0;4
rc eate d the bill. '
Another wouldtmnthnhdeeoimntt, he honed either beam;:itne:::tiienetriltr;
to aeitato ore
of tithes were mixed up with 1/. of rent, the 01.1°.,„d that
tot
fvethd
the prices were very high, whereas those priet(butt by the
adoption of this measure, they would overcoMe ~e, weis
dificulties in the collection of tithes in Ireland, "400
which were promised her as a
much mistaken. He would promise them they lad eve
eistersp imagined :;:eiting
to send more troops to collect tithes than
. of Union. For his ownTi li ha
t ''
theterlapkaner part or, mf
e thest elpms
sters should persist in such blind legislation
prevent
s3nt before. (Hear, hear.) He was surpritseothdt:.l:e:
rests of that country ? Surely, after whaot_ ti hate de
consider loffmltihne
esoemffeectksnoofwfloedrmgeerfrnOrneaseuxrpeer'iC::ey;out7rieltl tthe ohs
the Aet and to that he si,
sure it inu -total abolos
0,
t. st erentually co as for theftlies il'e„
. ithes. H
its accomplishment.
--ea ) On Kee, dotal abolition of
people of Ireland had set their minds• tut could
pass would
No act which the Imperial Parltarin.: hear.)
t iteal...nstuctii
He implored the house to
abolish the comp - i
of tithes in Ireland. He i
tion, was her oul to et this ~
one of the first acts of gracmeptlored the housoeter unit::
that great object was obtained they
that e /,,„ect . 6
ut an end to a't t' they could not that h
belonged gi a ion or to faction. Ile avewedf not
to a faction. (Hear, hear.) la' -eit
j
Ire at Col
she had been wrecked on the Act of Union ; sue ir
not obtain her rights by a legitimate influence in the lilac,
lattice, and faction, or what was in that house ternieuitoi
reward for con .
_...,
people were determined not to pay tithes. (" Hear, be
a few Irish members.) He knew it would be said that to
was expressing only the sentiments of a faction. N ~... 0.
was ready to acknowledge that he did belong to a fano° A
(Hear.) Yes, he admitted that Ireland was all b.uttbrui 7.:
by faction (Hear),and . such being the case, i Le;
necessary for some patriotic yerson to stand between.ttt
be enabled to obtain their rights. This was the positleeo
yPteorrei
resource—her
r'lleaeri_lri ealhmaele'rdn Parliament somene ol
yulNlsdowepite(ill '1
ra.eroe
gls aeseTrel antibthte,iejea,nl;fer:to,tli,..o,
people and their oppressors, in order that the people Oro
which the faction to which he belonged occupied. (11.4
and laughter.) He concluded by saying, "So help o'o,
God, I believe if this bill be carried it will produce bill,e
lotion in Ireland."
adollpjtre-d,Fie%)u?dßbAenTefiTtAoNne sceotnotfenpdeerdsontshaatt thtehiespeese, haieff
another, and therefore it was that he objected to
like this
fact, however, was that an act of confiscation bt'4'r,
Marquis
txcNhl- cpearutgldyln,:o,
eotroele(cloi,tii. submitted to in this countfrye•linPtOs'l
from some of the Irish members. ) Towards
~_ , aed
however; a system of odious tyranny was follow,, !'l 'that
he supposed, because they had the Coercion Bti.titl,erlet, the
country, they conceived they would be able to. I i
d theinse.ve,
payment of tithes. But in this they would lin i .
~isted
most wretchedly mistaken. The hon. gentleman
hisew the
of ng esea, .
show
larger than was necessa but that it was upheld for to
fid. a'tine the connection between the
mere purpnse of conso 1 „
be- doubt that Lord Allee'
two countries. There could no f ire
sea had p ans 1 in contemplation for the amelioration
A itle7d-astoda,a
taellidaterhileefelliarr
trhgteelorftoroecythteonehulfeert,ttelrB:!o];:toa.
land,
annodtthoantlythethseatotahnes Iwr
eisrhe feruhustrrcahtedesbtaybhilsishmi:3;;
government. nGmreattitta. u
)Betil
called
hueptohnerthtehahpt
uwsaes
potstee..usaen, awctouiodf
leen: fis e
ns c
ha ti
si
inn
cl iokine
et h 3 0
ti s ,)7t.c. vhoear Kith,uc4u
vsaes ebel.e‘o"fe-ar°:::onart 11:::IY:
written byVrAefeLrresadidto
miCodoltehnuetl
ment as hetPhdEei
thedlls letter,uuCiut, Eone
people of Ireland to agitate, agitate, agitate. It A
1 • r that it
quite cea i„..
led ItwaY ''.,
government had suffered themselves to be ._ a io-
the advice which they received from the Of
in
therefore, for one, placed as much value on tCte one -GO',
glesea, the consequence would have been a T `,°ti., leo,
noble
the
other.
*ii?:
gentleman through all his extravagallee,
derived from tithe!
Ireland. (Hear, hear. ) He would not.t ftolr m
that the revenue of the church ~,o/, or to mote
amounted to any such sum as suml,7o°'"—. would be r 0;
than 600,000/. a year. (Hear.) That
lw that in fact
duced by the present measure to confiscated"- to the es:
the property of the clergy would fthe
landlord;
tent of twenty per cent. for the benefit
°1
rd the Melo,
(Hear, hear.) It was stated by the noble(;ffeered to Wel',
ber for Leitrim that a clergyman had .t
ewt
lis ocery
800/. a year for his tithes, which were af eLT. sere'.
tained by the commissioners to be worth leT., stior,
here was a proof of moderation.
(Hear, it ?' )
ruts f
of obtaining e _
had been said about the unpopularity
but ,t) such s,
I • ths'
the tithes were paid by the landlord,nee, knowing .‘es
objection he attached very little impor a
in
it, instep',
' bill 3
the system of letting lands tithe freehart ) ni.
By this ...
'Hear, hear•
proved most stisfactory. . he supposed pips",e
bonu wasgiven to the:landlords, which
s But to show to
. to Cerberus• , had only to
tended to operate as 1,,
a 513
to which healludea ho _ p
had
the
fallacy of the argumen
estates iti the county h
and the
mention that lieseld its. o
f which paid tithes, .
nt, one o ow received s
honour to rep
From the letter he it
bill
ast,e,..
other was tithe free.
makeulobtain if this p
the.t
Ito that which ust deny
rent equa
obliged to adue .
it
charyet
while he was
tithe with which was
sit
rent of the other for the
h'nsnore, therefore, thaalaile
These arguments were noti
who used them to de .
__.
palatable to their tenantry, by giving
issue fatuus intended by those
_.....___ a sensano:
and mislead the people ; and by causing of the oleo:
1 ne a systorl succor
throughout the country to Keep e . , ive his Ai
baneful underhand agitation. He show,'
bge•ause he borit
to this bill, and the reason he did so was t, to thai`,,e• e
the landlords would use their best endeavour,
rrespooeie
allowance out of ,
reduction of rents. ht't
t the slig oe
Lord CLEMENTS never meant to eas
...
t,
,I. i
reflection on the cler man to whom he had. 11.1:_e_an had
merely said that hgy .h' rs of that cli r)705,,,t to i
t e paris tone . , that he rt i his
offered him 700/. a year for hiss thes, .
ners raise(
take less than 800/. and that thcoin
rrin°ot as affecting
income to 009/
1' - - --• ;abut all this lie statitu• t
argeetent,
agatu;t
the character of the clergyman, but as
the bill. • lion• and
I 'to the
weed "'I I reduce, tint
Mr. D. BROWNE entirely egbitt wed,
tt,. le,
gallant member for Sligo that t1:1g0,,, the reveuuttle,roit)etriy
them a to
as- the hon. gentleman had
_.l,:ich had been 1 t
church, but national property,;"
stem ef cuna"
taken from other purees' turd
of a proper s) s
at'on -f
clergy. A Much as he aPPi.°Consent to the deterior :aft)...
position, he never Would
upon as the property of the i
si:riot,
that which he looked rt to national purposes,
~ li,
be all' le( 'rove ot re,
and which ought to
ton. He could not all e the4h`
for instance, as
educa ber for Kildare ; but h. u. ,be
;the hon. member
resolutions °'the revenues of the church
clergy.
that some portion of
. tenence of the Catholiitet wore
appropriated to the snap
s to be broug' t i„otoit
A motion embracing this subjectjvia
~
and
tba
b • for St. Alban s, •t
by the hon. mein ei , 1 ohie
ort. e to
should most assuredly have hts sunP. w _ the re,et ow,
Mr. GOULBURN asked
whgct ?as Its °b•icsrho Vol.'
giVell into the hands 0/ the
which this bill was intended to e ;
rupriator
~_,. ,Vol.'
fact to declare that whereas the lay 'nlii under ttw_ia re
chased tithes as a provision for his fain
___toot). i,_.,„a
tion of existing laws, believing them to..tg t,zet )ill foci
lying on the legislature to protect his
011,-4.,.° I.6',tueed r _ta,
the o,
~
that his income of 100/. a year was t
s,O"-hi he
airen,
as
50 per cent. He asserted that this
_co not , .
tion of the bill, although its real object ', have be, n0.,.t,,h
stated as in common candour it ought t°
69th clause,
..!.!:,,
required the utmost application to the what the °l,the
the bill contained, to be able to develop
he bad hef.i_coi
tion of the measure was likely to be--nlAt.e►
was eonrri iii
he had not been guilty of anything like „..,„ rigli , 0
patience to go through it carefully, a. Cl,
the description which lie had given of it. .I)%ttt tei..t,ta
"c,„,ggerat'tlloo.
gentleman opposite shook his head as if he a u
' (.1, re'lllC,l tO
if he did not believe that it would effect any suu,,, at ,_„
as he had stated. If, however, the house wo lie,
_00i;
a few of the details he was fully persuaded I,i,.;ess b
able to satisfy them that the ultimate result of
env% thott,
would be precisely such as lie attributed to it,t.
,e.i.',,,,0 ;0,
tithe was commuted for land. By the bill, 1t0e_..,00 !
tended to be made a charge upon land.
was tq endure for five years, and at the expirtolv
This ar,r_ppisof tot

~~.

el

1,1116,0111/1"

~,

Ye7icel it was to be converted into a land tax or rent charge:
and in either case a reduction mast necessarily take place
'ln Point of amount. The right honourable gentleman
viteferred to the 3d section of the bill to show the injustice
.(ilehieh it would work upon the lay impropriators, and con-
'tended that b the 53d clause their income would be re-
duced in the proportion of one-fourth or one-fifth. The
that right
gentleman (Mr. Littleton), however, stated
now proposed a decrease of only 15 per cent.in every
instance, while it was clear that under the bill, as it stood,
the titheowner who was entitled to 1001. would receive
only soi.
; or, according to the right hon. gentleman's
alteration, 85/. But would this be any relief to the party
rliallY Paying? Undoubtedly it would not, for he, under
the Government
would have to pay the 100/., although
h ;"°vernment would retain 15 per cent. out of it in
their hands, and to be disposed of as they thought fit. But
there was also another point which would more explicitly
how the injustice of this measure. Suppose a lay impro-
Priator had under the act introduced by the right hon.
Rentleman the Secretary for the Colonies availed himself
the power which that act gave him to commute his
tithes, what would the result be? Why, that instead of
u.ecesi!ary
tithes, what
1001. he would only get 68/., and this was a
consequence of the wording of the 40th section,
‘911(:" empowered the commissioners to make their deci-
nen, not according to the original composition, but ac-
„'"iog to the sum which would become due and payable
t-. 1 the Ist of November after the passing of this act. But
h"ee__sacrifice of property which must take place did not stop
„re. After tithe had been, converted into a land-tax or
t4i,Leharge the owner of the land might redeem it at six-
‘, ." Years' purchase. This would give the lay impro-
Iritator whose income amounted to 100/. a year 1,600/. ;
.1 although that was the sum to which he was entitled, he
Zs still to suffer a deduction of 15 per cent., which would
anal his purchase-money to less than 1,400/. It was true
until his money was invested in land he was to derive
a: income out of the interest it produced ; but all this was
4,,,emlipanied by incalculable difficulties, for was it to be
:PPosed for a moment that the instant the redemption
mune., ._
,as ~
in
a4l received, it could be profitably invested either
this bill °r
otherwise? (Hear, hear.) The principle of
manner was only taking a step towards dealing in the same
tiw, 6 with any other property, whether lay or ecclesias-
that (lir:
catrie: not, whenever the popular cry should rise in
felt that ,n• Under this representation of the bill, he
1.5 . under ordinary
circumstances it would have been
cl_(_ll:ty to oppose it ; but when he was told that he must
wilder e to take this measure, or be prepared to adopt the
•le• hutviews of those who professed to agree in the pri
sit_ would carry it to still greater extremes, in this
tion ho had no choice, and had only to edkole him-
selfwith knowing that he had opposed to the best of his
Power the very first steps in this unjust and most impolitic
Turse in winch the Government were engaged. He
"°,lld therefore be an unwilling supporter of it, although
he should vote for the second reading of the bill.
, Mr. LAMBERT said his objection to the measure was
toat it would not be final, but left the country to five more
Years of struggle and agitation. He had no doubt of the
good intentions of the Government, for what possible inte-
rest could they have in keeping the country in its present
miserable condition? But there was something more than
Pond intention wanted; it was necessary that the system of
tithe in Ireland should be understood, which, from its be-
ing so unlike the tithe in England, was not generally the
ease with gentlemen in that house. This was the reaon
Why the different measures hitherto applied had failed of
ieit effect. And the same result, for the same reason,
wo..i •
ot t_ ',‘ attend the present bill. The hon. member con-
t7l(ted that the measure was founded in injustice, and
an
4,lJastice that must only aggravate the exasperated feelings
th_the people. For these reasons he felt bound to oppose
e Motion for the second reading.
Mr. Fill
„„i_,
ei EIL said the hon. gentleman was not the only
to
_".o°' who usually supported Minister_,_s and yet refused
the 7 pt this measure at their hands. Nay, he would ask
Were' who among the
,members of any party from Ireland
inerob their supporters! (Hear.) Was there one Irish
ittlel4 e•.TAle:TYWPasarty in that house who would support the
not one. (Hear, hear. ) Here, then,
am
n was not only a majority, but a unanimous feeling,
ISte° gst the 105 members sent there from Ireland an-ainst
44measure. Surely the house would attend to thatbuna-
-1 maturele.tof? manopinio, would it not? Who had concocted the
I I s Had y Irish member been consulted when
i znhe„of thorned?is Did ministers, before preparing it, issue
circulars from Downing-street to gentlemen
N 0,.," tin, were wont to summon in their hour of need?
vie-e' The measure had been concocted without the ad-
or e
bonne nowledge of an Irishman, and no one acquainted
44 ted with the interests of Ireland could be found to
this,
up and say that he supported it. (Hear. ) p_id .
" he would ask, bear him out in what he has said upon
),,,erit occasion, when he asked by whom was lreltaihi.
in-:teirtted ? Was she to be governed by IrishnnutTeminan
the
qi`er? With all respect forthe right hon..
ef an whose intentions he believed to be the
bestth that couldmate any man's breast, he knew.about as,
file,ll of Ireland and her wants as he (Mr. Shell) knew
')A„,,`"e Island of Japan. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
hr.' Yet he had brought forward and called upon the
N„,Vse to pass this measure upon the great and crying evil
-.4:1' Was the source of all the unhappiness of Ireland, and
(11,1,°•", e acquainted with the country had been asked for an
trot'ltiTn about it. His first objection to the measure was
look at the the patronage of the Crown. Let them
to be paid'"e office of receiver which it created. The income
amount.
~ Yearly inte the hands of receivers of estates would
have
fie t() 1:1
-`)0,000/., and upon this each receiver was to
sure
~,oe Per cent. Another tremendous evil of the mea-
eouotr' 'n(l be that it would perpetuate discord in the
tlin ;v, and lead, as he verily believed, to a frightful shed-
g of blood. How would the measure work ? lle
TN(' state the points of its operation as briefly as possible.
t•tr People had said and still said that they would not pay
1111,,,-"• The Government had tried to make them, and
ti eoiddlan. They tried the bayonet of the soldier and
h4'%abre of the horseman to enforce the payment, and they
failed, Having failed then in compelling the people
tope ,
Pay tithes to the clergy, they had now resorted to the
th-,dient of making the King the assignee of Ltithes, and
th unfortunate landlord was to be made to pay them to
t Kin g within a certain time, or he must pay six per cent.
ill
a(tdittoon their amount. He thought the landlords
class ntlemen on whom this six per cent. pay-
taelit Would ehagvee some effect. If, after the Ist of No-
t;""tv naext---let Protestant landlords remember that—if
cell%Y.ettitiiit7o t° pay tithe to the King, whether they had re-
Nua. r tint' they were to be charged with this six per
Then upon the amount due. This was at least a novel plan.
tittAolfarest;;nother question upon which. he. h.aodnheard that
ministers were divided in opini , namely,
in •. ‘
Th Oa -MR the appropriation of church propertyp4ced
r'f ht, -van 'is of the commissioners by this bill. The spach
that ili"mg at the opening of Par. liainent recommended
h P Property of the church should be maintained. But
tlYti!lis bill the money of the church was to be paid into
\thetah:`ris of the comniissioners, and he would ask the house
4,t, i% °f
taro
did not perceive that here was an apropri-
t",a3 th
~ property of the church ? He heard it i med.
;:f.lB 114,in°11eynot to be laid out in land ? He called upon
appr, .! 3 niMiSterS to answer him upon this question
the ~ Trlation. He demanded of them, in the name o
r, i,o1)1” _,.
• ne 1,,,i' ta Ireland, were they agreed upon that question?
l'ertonai arid learned gentleman concluded by appealing
t011.,,L710 the•chief secretary for Ireland, the president
seer,ta of control, the first lord of the admiralty, and
this Not :'-'' to the colonies, to declare their opinionsupon
, Air, si,' the house.
'").iectionerie,-ary STANLEY rose to answer the points of
'ttlairist th och the hon. and learned gentleman had alleged
11,,1,rnee, Measure. With regard to the last objection of
.eathed 1, gentleman, he should take that first. The
Itiforn_,gentleman complained that the house was not
aereert as to whether all the ministers of the crown were
lo the as to the mode of appropriating the fund to be paid
flap ti_e."lmissioners. For his own part he did not see
%tilt uts materially affected the question as it stood at pre-
lilt,' 1:i i The learned gentleman had singled out himself and
K.- Rot hon. friends from their colleagues, as if for the
CPese of appearing to be acquainted with their opi-
lr..
lusts upon the subject. (I I ear, hear, hear.) Now,
1 ,vould tell the learned gentleman, that, whether his
I l'3,sty's ministers were agreed on the speculative question
I the appropriation of this fund, when it should have
,e,,_
• ; thtglieereeated or not, they were all most cordially agreed in
Tit it; essay of maintaining the property in the possession
11,4esent owners (alters) whether or not they might
Prikti tty take into their discussion the. mode of its appro.
:'oe t`:;1; and that, waving the consideration of that ques-
tis 1,-oLt future period, they were determined not t_o_ suffer
',lll4rrertY to be forced by violence on the orlisidoc;,hneorr
i"lear,i,:awray by fraud and chicanery
"(,)'ete,l to th • ) The hon. and learned
:I"ll°intutets: Patronage the government would theo h
:
. -.1:16 learned` the receivers of estatri.eildsNowwo,ublifdtbhee
ghooodn.. '
41. th t gentleman or any of his r
litri . o Point ti Dtlort out a way by which money of this de-
g,t,"'e who"uld be collected without collectors, or to._ fitly!
'en, would collect the funds without being paid, hb
, ; illiite ,41'nt would be very much obliged to him and
.e
. ' I'ver, 114'4413' to foreg thpat onage. Until then, hcT -
itVencee.*as afraid-the em-nstr submit to the infliction with
r t," was, hat then,. slid the hon. and learned gentleman,
nt ' side Po unitormi in the system proposed. . On the
til'iit3lM. ttl)ht! hedge the tenant would be paying tithe, and
s• tit beer Bete the landlord. Why, how monstrous then
'ad to
' hear'''' the Jee one side of a hedge a tithe-free estate,
ReutiL illefier side land chargeable with tithe. (Hear,
il to atirternoiA. ;41,Would be the whole amount of the learned
-'. Tin 'h eaei, Jection—that two farms whh might happen
tie ' (""1. ,„ other cid
' Mal, -..eutbe i not come underact e same rule.
sliet,chhail all
.i r for Kildare, to whom the learned gen-
; ti, t han `teee,
at iton übitv, and from whom the house had heard a
tern] , use in %%hi 16 would say he had never heard one in
' 'teel.:; Itely a„(I ell the opinions of the speaker were more
' 'ath'e v(' ; and eahnly or, as he believed, more honestly
, was : thw 0 that hon. b had said that he would
had s'lce,t the ,I° °large on the landlord at once. That
• tleyer''t,d that. 'iliac taken by the learned gentleman. He
ftheeue 0pp„,,,,p was a resistance to tithe Which could.
trlt.l,l 'M. ) '' • What did he mean by that argument?
tifl4.,
at° say ;711taltumthspeak plainly his sentiments. Did he
t:::liitivt'e';ilhalatetualtilnoi,
.allteo-ethteeyiytwe're to give up the collection of
b ~47viir „hie
~ t to be divided between the landlord and
mbyustthreesboarytonteot the
Honelyootpr.ersa.l3
.)
It
) ,-,, vcrnment were adopting a, better course

when they steered between the two, and endeavoured to
avoid the evils of 'either. The hon. and learned gentle-
man asked that, as the Government and the clergy had
beer, unable to collcettithediow could they expect theland-
lords to be able.te 'clo io? Surely he did not mean to put in
comparison the difficulty which either of those parties were
under, and those which the landlord would have in reco-
vering his rent. 'He Would say that it would be unjust if
it would put money into the pockets of the landlords ; and
that, consequently, it would be a fraud committed upon the
clergy. He had beard much said about the difference of
of the measures proposed for both countries. The hon.
and learned gentleman should take into consideration the
real and actual difference that existed between those coun-
tries. He considered that Ireland was not unfairly dealt
with, and that the accusation of being favourable to
English landlords and unfavourable to Irish landlords must
fall to the ground. He had promised the honourable gen-
tleman not to enter into any great extent as to the
details of the bill, but to merely touch _upon one or two
points, and he trusted that he had kept his promise. He
hoped the hon. member for Wexford would not press his
intention of adjourning the debate on the question. He
wished that the bill might be allowed to be read a second
time, and that those clauses which seemed to be objec-
tionable might be discussed in committee.
Mr. BLACKNEY said if this bill was introduced the
landlords must be supported by the military, and the In-
surrection Act must be put in force in his oppressed and
unhappy country. The right hon. gentleman might pre-
pare himself for those scenes which Ireland had experi-
enced for so many centuries.
Mr. ONAYNE rose to move the adjournment of the

house.
Ldrd ALTHORP said that for convenience' sake the
house might sit later that night. The next day being Sa-
turday it would be inconvenient to adjourn the house at
that hour.
Mr. WALKER said he was not an advocate of sweep-
ing away all tithes—but he wished their extinction, taking
the word in the sense of the right hon. Secretary for the
Colonies, namely, doing away with the character that be-
longed to the old tithe system. There should have been
an ad valorem tax upon lands before they were liable to
tithes. He held that the same principle should be applied
to Irelad that was applied to England. He hoped the
presentn measure would be postponed for some little time
longer.
Mr. RONAYNE asked the hon. member for Wex-
ford whether he would withdraw his motion, in order that
he might move the adjournment of the debate ?
Mr. O'REILLY hoped that the hon. member for Wex-
ford would not withdraw his motion.—(Cries of "Ad-
journ," and " Go on.")
Mr. CAREW refused to withdraw his motion until he
saw whether his friends wished him to do so or to persist.
Mr. O'REILLY earnestly wished that the motion
should not be withdrawn.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that the hon. member for
Wexford was probably not aware that, even if his amend-
ment were to be withdrawn or negatived on a division, it
would still be in the power of any other hon. member to
move the adjournment of the debate to seine other day.
Mr. LITTLETON begged it to be understood that he
did not wish to seek for any kind of unfair advantage in
pressing forward the question before hon. members had
expressed their opinions upon it. But it should be recol-
lected that Monday was fixed for a debate which would
probably occupy the attention of the house for the whole
night ; and an that he now asked was, that the house would
allow the bill nosy under consideration to be read a second
time, it being an understanding that no hon. member
should be considered to have pledged his eventual support
to the measure by such a proceeding. If his request were
granted he proposed asking that on Monday the bill should
be committed pro ,firma, and on subsequent occasions
there would be ample opportunity for the discussion of the
details of the measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL felt very sorry that from principle
he could not accede to the request of the right hon. Se-
cretary. His (Mr. O'C.'s) opinions upon this measure
were so decided that he intended to take every opportunity
of ascertaining the sense of the house upon it.
The house then divided, when the numbers appeared—
For the amendment 74
Against it
Majority —l67
On our re-admission to the gallery we understood it to
have been agreed to that the further debate on the ques-
tion should stand adjourned till Tuesday.
TRIAL OF OFFENCES AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. E. DENISON obtained leave to bring in a bill to
enable magistrates of counties and boroughs to commit
prisoners for trial on charges of felony to the Quarter Ses-
sions of their respective counties.—Read a first time.
POOR LAWS' AMENDMENT BILL.
Colonel EVANS, in moving for a return from the com-
missioners for paving, lighting, and watching Regent-
street, of the sums expended by them (under the several
Acts of Parliament relating, thereto), from the Ist of
January, 1816, to the Ist of January last, said that, in the
absence of his colleague, who had a petition to present,
numerously signed by his constituents, against the Poor
Laws' Amendment Bill, he had to request his Majesty's
Government to postpone to a more distant period than
Monday next the bringing on of this important subject.
He thought that, in a matter of such serious consequence,
they ought not to be so precipitate. The object of the
petition to which he had adverted was not desired by the
petitioners only; he, believed that the opinions they enter-
tained were very prevalent, and sufficient time ought to be
allowed for the expression of them.
Lord ALTHORP said, that the business of the house
rendered it impossible that the motion relating to the
Poor Laws Bill could come on next Monday ' • and the
Irish Tithe Bill having been fixed for Tuesday, it was
equally certain that the Poor Laws Bill could not come on
then. The object of the hon. and gallant member who
desired the postponement of the bill would, therefore, be
attained. He (Lord Althorp) believed that the hon. and
gallant gentleman objected to the principle of the bill, and
that he, therefore, should be favourable to its being delayed
was not unnatural ; but, on the other hand, there were
many who would be very sorry if the bill did not pass.
He (Lord Althorp) had no objection to the measure
receiving the fullest possible consideration, and he believed
it had obtained very general attention ; in proof of which
he would inform the house that he had this day received a
suggestion from a person who lived on the south side of
the Thames, which perfectly agreed with a suggestion he
had received from a gentleman on the north side of the
Thames. These propositions would be acted on, and lie
hoped they would have the effect of diminishing the ob-
jections to the measure. The second reading would,
under the circumstances he had stated, not be likely to
come on before Friday, and ample time would be allowed
between that stage of the bill and the committee.
Mr. YOUNG thought it prudent that sufficient time
should be allowed to enable hon. members to communicate
with their constituents in the country. He would, there-
fore, request the noble lord not to bring the subject forward
sooner than Monday week.
Lord ALTII ORP could not consent to such a postpone-
ment at this advanced period of the session. He believed
that the general feeling throughout the country was in
favour of the measure, and much disappointment would,
consequently, be occasioned were it not passed into a law.
Colonel EVANS thought it extraordinary that the noble
lord should know how the country felt towards the bill, his
lordship not having afforded the country time to think on
the subject. He could state that those with whom he
(Colonel Evans) was most intimately acquainted, regarded
the measure with extreme alarm.
Mr. PETER hoped the noble lord would not delay the
measure unnecessarily. The subject had been long before
the public, through the reports of the commissioners.
11Ir. YOUNG said it only very recently transpired that
it was the intention of Government to act on the report of
the commissioners.
The conversation here dropped. The return moved for
by Colonel Evans was ordered.
The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to bring in a
bill for the amendment and better administration of the
laws relating to bankrupts in Scotland.
Mr. S. RICE brought up the report of the factory
commissioners ; also, the report of the poor laws' com-
missioners.
14_1r. HAWES said he had a petition to present.
tlentlarn. Rp
petition at that late hour. (A laugh.)
elrisTislteldV,EhNe
(oAbijrec. objected to the presentation f
house be counted. (Laughter, Ifthehnno.
gen-
tleman
three or four members Ruthven)remaining. )
there Anoolitlbdellinlogyme
otlrieatththane
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at half-past two o'clock.

THE MARCH OF MEALS. —The French,
whO in matters of taste invariably set us a bright ex-
ample, are about to teach us a new
luxury
i ibun the shape
houses. Om
of perambulating coffee_
largest size arc now fitting up in Paris, sintendedes of the
for
the use of those who, laudably
wishing to do two
things at once, will have the opportunity of moving
from one point to another while eating their dinner or
luxuriating over their taste de cafe. A constant sup-
ply of ready-cooked dishes, continually kept warm,
will be contained in each. They will have certain
depots where fresh supplies may be procured, and thus
the peripatetic gourmand has only to step in and at
once refresh his limbs and his appetite.

COLBURN'S MODERN NOVELISTS.—The
May Number of this cheap Monthly Library of Enter-
tainment, contains Mr. Hook's Last Series of " Sayings
and Doings." It has been justly observed, that " these
tales partake of the merits of the former series, while
they excel them in vivacity, truth, and copiousness of
character. In the facility with which Mr. Hook sketches
personal peculiarities, he is unrivalled : the readiness
with which he falls into all the niceties and fami-
liarities which mark the tone of society is equally
striking. The little appearance of labour in his
writings, the singular warmth and unstudied vigour of
his sentences, complete the effect, and make his works
the most lively, and at the same time the truest pic-
tures of life we have yet met with."