The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-22 00:00:00

that with the assistance of the military—horse, foot, an
; and with a cost of at least 15,0001.—(Hear,
frpro the Opposition Benches.) There they storged,
tab, they call twat extinguishing tiCae3, !Lae, again,„" were pledged to a principle, and here again they sha w
;rllerliselves flinching from that principle. But, continued
'e 11011. and Learned Gentleman, I tell them, and we on
tb! •
"4,!de of the House a!! tell them, that we will have
the whole Biii, and Tiothirtg but the Dill.—
(Cheery.) You have stripped that Bill of its Most.
irh-
portant clause; you
,have struck out the only prirteiple
in • • • .
~, • having it, since you hav,,, asks from this House
pu,ver of interfering with the surplus fund. You
now and you make an alteration which you ask ns
of a;cept. We will not accept of it. We will not accept
this Bill so altered. Lt •
it be sent to Carlton Terrace
"re it will be accepted, for the terms have already been
'greed on. I repeat that I will not accept it, and I pro-
le,,, against it in my own name, and in that of the people
°1 Ireland. I call upon Minis tors, and I call upon the
aletribers of this House to act consistently with their
Ittrctnisis, to repo diate
.this alteration, and. to adhere to
''‘great principles originally held out.--(Cheers.)
Jr. 3 STANLEY said that he would not imitate the
4)4 of indignation, real or assumed, that had been made
°F by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The pre-
,'" Government, when they entered office, were pledged
wo easures. 'The onti related to the tranuillity of
`rehincl ;stand he confetced that that mtasure was not v• ry
e"ttkitutional. The other was a Pl'itStll eof ref •rrn in
ti•,t'e church of Ireland—it was td be a necessary rerorni
ethe goad of the eeople and for the security of tl e
,
reh; end everything was done in order to remove the
ireng objections of some to meddling at ail with the

'Ureli.

It had been said that Ministers had made

enotpromise with respect to those measures : now, he
1 I'2:WY repudiated, in the name of the Government to
','"ich lie belonged, all idea Of compromise between the
''',.° Measures. But he would say, that Government was
fledged to the two measures—to the Coercive Bill, as it
It ,il's called, and also to the carrying of the Irish Church
1 qmPoralities Bill ; they were picked to both those
I measures, and they were fully prepared to stand or fall by
'll4-n..--4 Cheers from the Opposition Benches.) He
hderstood the me ming of those cheers—he saw plainly
, Mockery of them; but still he would repeat the de-
e'atation, that they were ready to stand or fall by those
I'''') measures.—(Hear, hear.) Let their conduct be
:°ropared on those two measures, and it would be found
Wholly consistent. It Would be found that they were
' i determined to carry both in their integrity.—(ol).)
i'',e would ask whether the Coercive Bill did not go
' "t° the other House in all its integrity.—(oh ! and
° ; latigho It would be said that they were de-
4d!ng the people, that they were stripping the 13111
°,' 'ts best clauses, and that it would lie passed in such
' worthless condition that it would not be worth
, 1.-7ePting. No doubt a great deal of demerir would he
e'l• Why did not the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
ll' ate his objections to the Bill on a former occasion ? The
tlill'tndrnents that he then proposed were adopted, and
Oiling was heard of this clamour. The Honourable arid
\:.4Tlted Member had as good a right then as now to charge
‘'ln:sters with the crime of adhering to office with a
-,:!'tifice of their principles. The Hon. and Learned
,e?ttleman says that this clause is the only one in the Bill
,"ich he valuis, and his principles seem to be to strip the
! iliurch of the property she possessed.—("
ands front
gr' O'Connell.) If that was the Hon. Learned
' 4 ',Nieman's principle, he would tell hint it was not the
i• il'beiple on which the present measure was introduced.
14 was introduced on a better principle than that of mak •
1t sece table to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It
tto4, P
, h ' introduced not to satisfy his party or any other party,
1:t to bring about a reform in the Irish church that
,h!old promote the security of that church and do good to
~,7 People. If that measure was thrown out they would
,-‘4' away relief from Ireland, and they would cause a
t-'ialls loss to the people of Ireland.—(" No, no," from
th' Opposition benches.) What ! had they not heard that
4,lel.Yestry cess was one of the greatest grievances under
4,l\ieh the Catholic population of Ireland laboured—(Na,
1 Pt-and were not tithes secondary to the vestry cess, and
1;4 obnoxious to the people of Ireland ?—(" No, no," and
,t4'ghter.) He was prepared to show that the vestry cess
hMore objectionable than tithes.—(Laughter.) Tithes
Ael'oged to property, and could not, like the vestry
Fs' be improperly raised. Catholics and Protestants
Acre equally liable to tithes—he meant that Catholic and
tirL'testant property were both liable to the burden of
tue't•l But vestry cess differed materially, for it was
,„
1-P°serl exclusively by Protestants upon the Catholic po-
-I::tlation, and it was appled to the purposes of a religion
!th Which they did not agree, and ordered by an autlio-
he:yvat.ginhe stw
vestry
e which they rebelled. The consequence was,
-s was more objectionable to the Catho-
nt than, tithes, which, if they were not paid in their pre-
4,4t."aPe, must be paid to the landlord in the shape of
~, When the present Bill passed, the vestry cess
p"?Id be no longer a legal charge, and therefore could not
',lied. The vestry cess was certainly the only amount
P... Pecuniary relief offered by the measure to the Irish
Ptle• The Bill was intended not only to satisfy the
',none population, but to make the Protestant Church
,herb
efficient in Ireland. The reform contemplated in
'I: Irish Church might not be agreeable to the Hon. and
Ottecl Member for Dublin—it might be indifferent to
,41, whether the number of Bishops was reduced or not
thuot it was not indifferent to the Government, since
INconsidered a very great object to keep down an over-
n stiff of the Church, and to apply the expenses of
loaf stiff to the relief of the poorer parochial pastors, and
a; l'e building and repairing of churches. What he
'ued to what he had st at heart, was to ro•
1° t" the efficaniency of the Protestant Church in Irelapnd.
it -
h Was the object of the Bill—that was the principle on
6,,,:e1l it was based—that was the principle Ministers
61,,' bound to abide by—that was to what they had
,Ceed themselves, and by that pledge they were ready
is:tand or fall.—( Hear.) He repeated again that Mini•
i 6,? Were prepared to stand or fall by the two measures
fl,4ultd already alluded to. They were not to be terrified
;11 t 4 carrying the Bill, and front securing to Ireland and
(S,,te Church that prosperity and security which they
:" in need of—they were not to be terrified from doing
1,,, y any taunts as to their love of office, and as to their
06tifleing principle to that love of office—taunts which
spit
it unworthy of him to condescend to answer.
)it4,.4t he had said would be sufficient, he trusted, to con-
lie,' the House that the charges with respect to want of
II it'iPle were totally unfounded and unmerited.—(Hear.)
,lie O'CONNELL, in explanation, was aware of the
lii4't of abolishing the vestry cess, but he really did not
111,‘v what the Plight lion. Gentleman meant to do
yt it, What he meant to do to-day might be very
ent from what lie intended to do to-morrow.
I, rt STANLEY said that the Hon. and Learned
ib,,,l°ber was more conversant with the intentions of Go-
Vroent upon that subject than any one else could be.
16: Ron. and Learned Member was perfectly aware that
til i lause had been postponed in order that his own
hr'''"n as a lawyer might be taken upon it, and he
itrt Stanley) had no doubt that the Hon. and Learned
lit4l?er would not now deny that he had been for some
V,- 'l5 the fullest consultation with the Government as to
;(,manner in which the clause should be framed.—
441 cheers.)
Itlr• O'CONNELL said, tliat the part of the Right
4;', Gentleman's speech which had been cheered, was
l'i.„111 which he said that he (Mr. O'Connell) bad been
(V the fullest consultation" with the Government.—
La-44') He (Mr. O'Connell) did not deny that lie bad
:topl,irt consultation with them.—(Hear, hear)—but
411 it; the Right Hon. Secretary say that anything de-
116t 114(1 been agreed on ? He (Mr. O'Connell) denied
11t1,4'Itliing had been agreed on upon that subject ; but
41 !team to the distribution of the surplus revenues of
Itt) c.itoreli, he would say that part of that the Bill was
giiyely t
t, agreed on.--(Cheers.)
ttit'' HUME said, that in this discussion there was
k,‘l Inure for sorrow and regret than for anger, for never
11),, Government reduced to a juncture such as his Ma-
\(/.; Government had that night reduced themselves to.
, :iiktear, hear.) He would put it to the Noble Lord,
''
tt,,,tecurity the House or the country bad that the Go-
tt),'''ent meant to carry that or any other Bill which
,titt4‘ight introduce other than that which he had
i's,;' that they should stand by the principles of the
'. G .4t Lill? •The Noble Lord had given his pledge that
l'
buvernment would stand or fall by that Bill.—(Hear.)
Syst'ight Hon. Gentleman had stated that the present
Allat alas not one of the principles of the Bill ; but
.th; l'e would ask, was to be considered time principles
,', 6 Bill, but those provisions which were laid down by
0,4 Uy'rnruent as part of the measure ? These provi-
‘4illl4),l" stated by the Noble Lord, the Government were
N).;7lvere pledged as men of honour—to maintain ;or
titt ere bound, in consequence of those pledges, to
iii44,,,,°'11 office.—(Cheers.) Nay, more, it was stated
VO, oolile Lord, that as the situation of Ireland was
11 ti! to require so harsh a measure as the Coercion
i,,'%) :'t Church Reform Bill would be brought forward
IL' 4'tetion with it, in order to heal the evils which
° :tight Ireland to that state.—(Hear.) There were
`L tc,-14ciples (as he understood) to be established
`itt'llitt;:k
of Bill ; the one was, the reformation of the
ii ki lreland—(Hear, hear, hear)—the other. and
11,44)t)41Pal point on account of which alone he (1111.
, 4ts't, Sod many other gentlemen on his side of the
'''Nt,id supported it—was, that it admitted that the
' of the Church might be alienated for public pur-