The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-18 00:00:00

DEBATE.

Mr. MOORE resumed the debate on the second
reading of this Bill. He said that the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, in moving the second reading of this
Bill, had professed that he would clear the ground
for the House to come to a proper understanding
on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) So far, however,
from clearing up any of the difficulties which sur-
rounded the Bill, the Right Hon. Baronet bad kicked up
such a dust that he had made the ground much darker
and more difficult. He thought, however, that it would
be conceded that the opponents of the Bill had since that
time cleared the ground of a great deal—in the
first place, they had cleared the ground of the Hon.
Baronet himself for the space of ten days, and since the
restoration of himself and his colleagues they had cleared
the ground of at least three-fourths of the Bill ;
they had cleared it of anything which could ever
have imparted any shadow of consistency to it.
rile Noble Lord at the head of the Government had
openly avowed that the opinions of his former life were
blunders and misconceptions, and that the present Bill
was founded on an entire change of his opinion. They
cad also exposed to the public view the paltry strings
that pulled the puppet of intolerance and bigotry.
and shown how the same strings that pulled the puppet's
head up were ready to pull it down again. Be did
not wish to refer to the erratic fights of indi-
viduals, but when he heard them accompanied
e, ith the cheers of the House of Commons
tie could scarcely forbear commenting upon them.
He referred to the speech of the Hon. Baronet the Mem-
eer for Tam worth, and as he had beard That the lowest
Jacobins were the Gamaliels at whose feet the Hon.
Baronet delighted to sit, he hoped that from that source
the Hon. Member drew his matter as well as his manner.
The first question to be decided was, whether the set of the
Pope was an aggression, expressed in insulting language;
secondly, whether it had been a temporal or a spiritual
aggression; thirdly, supposing it to be an aggression, was
there reasonable ground for the Pope to believe that it was
an act offensive to the British Government, or one which,
on the contrary, was not only innocent but acceptable ;
fourthly, if the Pope had erred in the conclusion, whether
the relations of the Government with the See of Rome were
or were not such as to warrant that error—in a word, whether
the error was with the country or with the Pope ; and fifthly,
still assuming it to be an aggression, whether the House 9. as
of opinion bat it was an act which called for such a vindi-
cati n as that proposed by her Majesty's Government, and
which was likely to lead to such a serious consummation.
With regard to the first proposition he (Mr. Moore) freely
conceded that the act of the Pope was an aggression—
a spiritual aggression of a most decided character ;
but then he maintained that the Pope was dis-
tinctly in his right, as every man, native and
alien, had a right to promulgate his opinions when such
opinions were tolerated by the State. In religion, which
lived upon persecution, aggression was an inevitable neces-
sity. Without aggression the world would never have had
Christianity any more than persecution. The question, then,
was, could such aggression be opposed successfully by penal
laws? That the Pope exercised spiritual authority over one-
third of the people of these kingdoms could not be denied.
, That the Papal power was imperiurn in imperio, he would not
stop to dispute; but he would maintain that it would be as
reasonable to pass an Act of Parliament against the influence
of the moon on the tides as against the immaterial and
powerful authority of the head of the Catholic Church. Ar-
rogance had been imputed to this act of the Pope spiritual
arrogance ; but the Turk on the banks of the Euphrates did
not approach in the smallest degree to the arrogance of the
English people on the subject of religion. In tact if all the
pride of all the fallen angels had entered into their souls,
they could not, in his (Mr. Moore's) opinion, exhibit a
greater amount of arrogance in that respect ; and in proof of
this he referred to the address of the prelates of the English
Church to the Queen, wherein language the most illiberal,
the most labouredly and grossly insulting, had been em-
ployed in speaking of the religion of one-third of her Ma-
jesty's subjects. What was the insult or aggression
of one head of a Church to those of a whole hier-
archy, whom the Catholics were condemned to pay for
anathemising them. In spiritual aggression as well as
insult the Catholics were therefore the debtors of that
hierarchy; and though they were obliged to imprison
their pride in their own hearts, it was not the less strong for
biding its time, and certainly they would not forget their
, debt. The next question he should consider was, whether
this aggression was temporal or spiritual in its character.
He asserted it was not the former ; and he had not been able,
I In all that was said or written on the subject, to discover a
clear description how it became so, and still less a proof that
such it was. The Noble Lord (the Member for London) had
made a long speech in invidiam, quoting the words of Cardi-
nal Wiseman's letter, " We govern," &c., as an invasion of
the prerogative of the Sovereign ; but with the exception of
this Wretched perversion of that ecclesiastical letter, that or
any of the speeches which preceded or followed it did n t
I define that charge, or contain any evidence in support of it.
He (Mr. Moore) maintained that the whole case got up on
this ground was disingenuous ; for all assumption of temporal
authority on the part of the Pope had been over and over
disclaimed. In truth the entire argument of the Noble Lord
and those who supported him in that respect was the same as
had been used by the old ladies of this counif'ry at any time
Within the last hundred years ; and nothing r more or less
than what the Noble Lord himself had so often scorned and
derided at any time within the last quarter of a century. He
(Mr. Moore), however, looked upon the best reply to the
Noble Lord's arguments—if such they, could be called— on
this point, to be the statement of the Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for Bath, respecting the organisation of the spiritual body
designated W esleyans in this country. The fact was, and it
WAS well known its England, that Cardinal W iseman no
more meant that he should govern Middlesex temporally
than that he should govern the whole country. The Lou.t
and Learned Member for Oxford had th own overboard that
coarse assertion of temporal power, and taken refuge in a
fine-drawn distinction intelligible to no one but himself; and
yet for such a distinction the whole country was to be torn
in pieces. The Hon. Member for the University oft .xford
urged that the Church of Rome claimed authority over every
baptised Christian. But was not this claim made by every
Church ? The Hon. and Learned Member for the city of
Oxford might say, no; but an Hon. Member for the Uni-
versity of Oxford said, yes; and he said moreover that
every bishop in the Established Church claimed this jurisdic-
tion. Thus, then, were the bishops of the Episcopal Church
in this country, the bishops , f the ecc esiastical Church in
Scotland, and the bishops of the garrison Church in Ireland
claiming all the dissenters, members of ,he Church of
Scotland, and Roman Catholics; but did the Dissenters,
the Presbyterians, or the Roman Catholics care an atom
for this claim. The Roman Catholics, he could speak for
them, certainly protested against the bishops of the Esta-
blished Church putting their hands in their pockets; but, as
regards their claims to their souls, they regarded it with the
most perfect indifference. The argument of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Oxford, that the hierarchy would be
followed by the canon law, and that under the canon law
the Pope might depose the Sovereign and dissolve the alle-
giance of the subject, was as absurd as that which alleged
that absolution would be denied to all who opposed ecclesi-
astics, in the same manner as was done by the Archbishop of
Sardinia in regard to the author of the Siccardi law. There
had been a hierarchy in Ireland for centuries, and the canon
law was in force there; but none of these consequences had
occurred ; while as regarded the refusal of absolutionolthough
the people of that country were, be might say, devoted to
their clergy, no one cared for the canon law, or the bull In
Gana Domini, and no one was, above all, afraid to proceed
against the priests. In honest truth, he (Mr. Moore)
believed that the only suitor who would not get a
verdict in an Irish court against the clergy was the British
Government in case they proceeded with the present Bill.
As regarded the question of spiritual power, the Attorney-
General sail it was no more than was exercised by bishops
in partibus p•eviously, and that with the insult the House
had nothing to do. Yet for a state of things so described by
the first law officer of the Crown, the country was to be tern
to pieces. The next question was, whether the aggressioe,
if such it was, on the part of tie Pope, was one which he had
reason to conceive would be offensive to the Government, or,
oe the other hand, innocent in itself and not unacceptable
to them. On this point the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government had made a confession so very humiliating that
he (Mr. ,stoore) should not press it on the notice of the
House. The Noble Lord had been accused of makieg va-
rious statements on the subject at issue in 1834 and in 1845
—statements directly contrary to his present course of ac-
tion; and after considerable hesitation the Noble Lord ad-
mitted them, accounting for his conduct on this occasion by
saying that he had now changed his mind. He (Mr. Moore)
however, appealed confidently even to those Honourable
Members who were most opposed to him, whether this an-
swer would be held as satisfactory, or any other than diplo-
matic. The Hon. Member then referred to the letter of the
Hon. Member for South Nottinghamshire, and concluded by
contending that the Pope had reasonable grounds to suppose
that his measure, if it did not obtain the sanction, would at
least command the silence of her Majesty's Government.
But if there had been any misconception on this point in the
mind of the Pope, the state of the relations between the
British Cabinet and the Papal Court were such as to render
it perfectly excusable. There was no country in the world
wbe'e such a monstrous fiction was maintained as that the
head of the religion of one•thir i of the inhabitants—which
religion was admitted by the State—should be ignored by the
law. But it was not unparalleled in the history of England;
for ages after France had cast out the English power. the
Sovereigns of England claimed the title of Kings of France
also. At the present moment Hon. Members distinctly
swore that the Pope had no spiritual authority in this realm,
when the contrary was well known to them to be the fact.
And an internecine struggle was almost provoked for the
maintenance f a falsehood so arrogant. The Hon. Member
then referred to the debate on the Bill for diplomatic rela-
tions with Rome, and asserted that the Noble Lord at the
head of tha Government was laughing in the face of the
House when he made his statement in respect of the Papal
aggression. It was not the division bf the a untry into dio-
ceses that made the aggression, but it was the people them-
selves who had fancied the aggression. It was not a proper
vindication of the law to pass enactments that were not to
be carried into effect, or were to be carried into effect in . ne
part of the kingdom and not in the other. This course was
more degrading to our national honour than anything else ,
that could be imagined. (Hear.)
Mr. WIGRAM (who was indistinctly heard at first) said,
this measure had been treated, during the debate, as if it
was but of little consequence to this country, and as if it
merely referred to a speculative opinion. He was sa isfied 1
this was a mistake. Wherever the system of Rome pre- ,
veiled, the liberty and prosperity of a nation d clined—
wherever that system was checked, liberty and prosperity
flourished.— (Hear, hear.) Look to the various states own- 1
ing the away of Rome. Spain had sunk to a contemptible 1
rank among nationts trader the sway of Rome. 011 the other I