The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-13 00:00:00

1M PERIALPARLIAMENT

THIS DAY, THURSDAY, JUNE 13.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The gallery was opened very soon after twelve o'clock,
there being then less than this ty Members present.
Upon the motion of Mr. COLQUHOUN, the Lanark Gaol
Bill, and another private bill, was read a third time, and
passed.

Mr. HALL presented a petition from the occupiers of cottages
in Merthyr Tidvil'and other places in Glamorganshire, against the
Bill brought in by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury for the
rating of small tenements.

Mr. COLQUHOUN presented petitions from Brenton and
another place against negro slavery.
Mr. SINCLAIR presented petitions from four parishes in
Scotland complaining of church patronage. The Hon. Member
gave notice of his intention to move that, from and after the
commencement of the next session of Pai liament, all motions
relative to Scotland should take precedence of all other business
on alternate Tuesdays, and that on the other Tuesdays all mo-
tions relative to Ireland should take similar precedence. This
he did because he considered that Scotland had been peculiarly
slighted by the present and past Parliament.
INQUEST ON CULLY.

Mr. ROEBUCK said he had to present a petition to the
House of much public importance. It was from the Jurors
who sat on the Coroner's Inquest on the body of
Robert Cully, the policeman, who was killed in Cal-
thorpe-street. The Honourable Member then read the
petition at length, as it has already appeared in the
columns of The Sun. He then said the object of the obser-
vations he had to make was directly to charge his Majesty's
Government with a direliction of duty. This he should do
by first charging them with having created a riot, in-
stead of preventing one; secondly, by charging them with
bringing into disrepute a useful body of men; and thirdly,
by pursuing an illegal line of conduct in what they
might term the administration of justice. These he would
admit, were grave charges, but he had ample evidence to sup-
port him. Some persons of the national union of the working
classes, had issued a placard calling upon their countrymen, as
the House of Parliament would do nothing for the people, to
form a national convention. Any person who knew anything of
the working classes, must be aware that the persons
calling this meeting had but little weight with the working
classes, and were a very small knot of persons, whose opinions
were rather peculiar than general.—(Hear.) Scarcely any one
would have attributed power to these few, until the Right
Honourable Secretary issued his anonymous proclama-
tion. This, it was probable, would be referred to by the
Right Hon. Secretary as an official document, but it was
not an official proclamation in the proper sense of the word,
because it bore no stamp of authenticity—it was printed by
nobody knew whom—struck out by nobody knew whom, and
signed by nobody.—(Cheers.) But this placard, emanating
from a richer source than the other, was stuck up in greater
numbers, and read, of course, by more persons. To put down
the meeting the Right Hon. Secretary had recourse to 1,700
policemen,and the consequences that resulted he (Mr. Roebuck)
should state, not only from evidence that was adduced at the
trial, but also from information which he had received from
several most reputable men who were present on the occasion,
and whose names he was at liberty to mention. The Hon.
Member then went into a detail of the transactions at Cal.
thorpe.street, which did not in any material point differ
from that already before the public. He had, he said, already
declared that the conduct of the Government was unjust, im-
politic, and illegal. It was also in direct opposition to the course
that they had adopted on previous occasions, when those at the
head of his Majesty's Government had not only sanctioned
but encouraged the people to meet in large numbers for
the purpose of effecting an alteration in the Constitution.—
( Hear, hear.) To what did the great meeting at Birmingham
lead but to a revolution ? For he would contend that the
passing of the Reform Bill was, strictly speaking, a revolu-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) Yes; how differently had the Govern.
ment acted when they excited the people to aid them in
keeping their places, and carrying the:Reform Bill.—(Hear.)
Of all Governments, the present ought to have been the last to
have attacked the people. It might be said that the Govern-
ment had no desire that the people should have been attacked :
if so, he would ask, why they had not taken proper precautions
against it ? No danger had been proved to property or per-
son by the meeting, but still Government had thought proper
to sanction a violent attack on the people, evidently for political
purposes. He admitted that Government should be intrusted
with great powers, but those powers ought to be exercised by
it with prudence.—(Hear.) He would wish to give them all
the power they could possibly wield, but in doing so he hoped
they would wield it with mercy. He deprecated in this instance
the conduct of a Government when the country was led to be-
lieve they had the interests of the people at heart, but who
by their conduct had proved the very reverse. The Hon.
Member then went on to argue the legality of the meeting. He
admitted that an assemblage of persons met for the purpose of
resisting the payment of taxes was illegal ; but the meeting at
Coldbath.fields had no such object in view.—(Hear, hear.)
From ,the placard that had been issued, it was too
much to say that the meeting had really taken place
to form a national convention, it might have been that
they had met for the purpose of petitioning Parliament to
form a national convention, and in that case the meeting was
a strictly legal one. In his opinion the proceedings on
the part of Ministers were most impolitic and illegal.—
(Hear, hear.) He would now come to the proceedings on the
Court of King's Bench to quash the veadict of the jury. That
verdict was the verdict of the country : the jury, on their
oaths, had come to the opinion they had ; and what did the
Solicitor-General ask ?—Why, to quash the opinion of the
country ; and that any other jury who might be called upon
41, investigate the matter should not be influenced by that
verdict. That was, in fact, putting an end to coroners' juries
altogether, and placing the Solicitor-General as judge in any
case, of what proceedings should take place, and what not,
allowing such proceedings as he liked to take place, and
putting an end to such as he disliked.—(Hear, hear.)
When the verdict of the Coroner's jury had been thought
proper to be quashed, why had not the Government taken
measures to call for another ? If a jury even were called to
sit in trial of the individuals supposed to have been concerned in
the affray by which Cully, the policeman, was killed, they
would be placed in a situation in which they could not give a
verdict according to law. He sincerely hoped that an ex-
planation of all the circumstances would be given by the
Right Honourable Gentleman, which would induce him
(Mr. Roebuck) to proceed no farther with the case; if not,
however, he should feel himself bound to move for a copy of the
inquisition laid before the Court of King's Bench for the pur-
pose of enabling him to determine what ulterior proceeding
he should adopt.
The petition being read,
Mr. LAMB rose, but before he had addressed the House,
Mr. COBBETT moved that the House be counted.—(Cries
of " Oh, oh.") He was determined that such an important
question should not be brought before House in empty
benches.—(oh, oh.)
Mr. ROEBUCK entreated the Hon. Member not to per-
severe in his motion. If he had contemplated such a proceeding
he most certainly would not have made such a charge at so
great a length without an opportunity for the Right lion.
Gentleman to explain.—(Hear.)
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member for Oldham ought to
have moved that the House be counted while the Hon. Member
for Bath was addressing the House, as it was in consequence of
the importance of the subject that he wished it to be brought
before a fuller House. As the benches were in the same state
now that they were when the Hon. Member for Bath addressed
the House, an opportunity should in fairness be given for Go-
vernment to explain.—(Hear.)
Mr. COBBETT did not know that it was allowable to move
the counting of the House while an Hon. Member was ad.
dressing it.
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member was quite unac-
quainted with the forms of the House; it not only was quite
allowable, but was most frequently done.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBBETT (a number of Members having now entered
the House from one of the Committee rooms) begged leave to
withdraw his motion.

Mr. LAMB then proceeded. The Hon. Member for Bath
had so guarded himself against any unfair and unnecessary
imputation upon the police force, that he (Mr. Lamb)
should not think it necessary to detain the House with any
lengthened vindication of that useful and effective body. He
would shortly refer to the facts of the case; there was,, how-
ever, so much of law mixed up with it, that in some points he
must leave it to his Learned Friend, the Solicitor General.
The charge against the Government was certainly not a light
one—it was twofold, and involved first a direliction of duty, the
allegations in support of that being, that they had decidedly
created a riot. It was very easy to charge Government with a
direliction of duty in the means they had used to prevent or
quell tumultuary meetings, which were, unfortunately, thought
too strong or too weak for the occasion; but it was not so
easy, in anticipation of such assemblies, to adopt measures
which might not be liable, in some quarters, to such a
charge.—(Hear.) It was said that the meeting in question
was quite contemptible. He called on the House to look at
the placard that had been issued; and although the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin had called it elsewhere a matter
altogether of " tomfoolery," he was quite convinced the real
intention of the meeting was to adopt some means of up-
setting the Legislature of the country.—(Hear, hear.) This
was what they meant, he had no doubt, by their Na-
tional Convention. Stripping it of all special pleading,
attempted tobe introduced into the subject in common parlance,
it amounted to this—their object was, and he believed if any of
them had been asked they would have declared their real in-
tention to be, the organization of a body which was to take on
itself the duties of the legislature. If the meeting had been
really contemptible their object :vas seditious, and it was the
duty of Government, while such objects were contemptible, to
crush them.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It might,
by quibbling argument, be shown that the meeting was
contemptible, b .the fully believed that there was not one con-
cerned in putting forward that placard, but would openly avow
that their intention was to call a meeting of delegates from every
part of the country, who were to take upon themselves the duties
of the Legislature. There was another circumstance to be
taken into consideration—that was that that placard was ac-
companied by another bill, which was signed by a person who
called himself Lloyd, editor of the " Republican," which,
among other things, called upon the people to send their own
representatives to represent themselves, which was
the easiest and the shortest way of settling the business. It
also called upon them to meet in that place, which was then
filled with the nominees of boroughmongers, or of those na-
tional nuisances, the Lords.—(A laugh.) That was a species of

tomfoolery which it would not do for the Government, or any
Government, to laugh at. The Hon. Member said that the inten.
tion of the meeting was to petition Parliament to call a national
Convention. A very likely thing that they were to petition that
House to call a body who were to set aside themselves ; it was
too ridiculous to be thought of for a moment. Then the next
charge was that the notice for it was not a proclamation—it
was not signed. Such notices had been frequently issued
before, and had generally been found effective—it was a mere
notice to thepeople that the meeting was decidedly illegal, and the
same kind had been issued when the meeting was called at White
Conduit House and there it was not signed, and still it was
sufficient. Then again, upon the fast-day, when the Unions
intended to march through the City, a similar notice was
issued, upon which the police acted, and nothing was then
said about the illegality of it. It would be degrading to the
kingly authority if he was called upon to exercise one
of his highest prerogatives—the issuing of a proclamation—
upon every occasion of that sort. Now there was
one thing in the face of that notice which carried authority
with it ; it was printed by the King's printer ; and the Hon.
Gentleman, as a lawyer, was aware that it was a misdemean-
our in any one imitating that. The next charge was, that these
notices were more widely circulated than the placards. He
could say nothing as to the truth of that, but cer-
tainly it was the duty of the Government, if they thought
such a notice necessary at all, to see that it
received very wide circulation, in order that it might be ef-
fective. Then the Hon. Member asked why the police did
not take possession of the ground ? That appeared to him
(Mr. L.) to be the very method by which a crowd would have
assembled ; besides, what right had they to say to
any person, "you :shall not7pass through this thoroughfare,
or you shall not stand here," before any meeting was consti-
tuted—before any illegal act had been committed. That, in
his opinion, would have been the worst plan possible ; the
result of it would have been first to create a crowd, where none
might otherwise have been, and in the next place it would have
driven the mob away to some other place, where they would
have held their meeting. Besides, it was the duty of the police
to take care that no part of the mob should separate from the
rest, and go somewhere and commit mischief, as was done by a
part of even a loyal mob, that went down to congratulate
the King ; a part of it detached itself, and committed an in-
famous attack upon the house of the Duke of Wellington.
Then, said the Hon. Member, where was the use of 1,700
policemen to put down five hundred poor persons
who were unarmed? Now there were 1,700 police
out, but they were scattered all over the town ; a part was even
so far distant as Greenwich, which was rendered necessary, as
the Union had declared their intention of marching in in bodies
from different quarters. Besides, the number that attended was
no criterion of the numbers that might have been there, and
it was the duty of Government to be well provided in any case.
He had no hesitation in declaring that the instructions of the
police were to do nothing till the meeting was constituted, and
then to press on and secure the leaders, or ringleaders. Go-
vernment owed more to the State than merely to prevent a
meeting of such a nature—they owed it to the country to secure
those who were the instigators of such measures. The Hon.
Member had put off this discussion on account of his (Mr. L.'s)
illness, he thought in that he had done a benefit even to him-
self, for if newspapers were to be relied upon, he had used lan-
guage in another place which he did not now repeat ; he had
charged upon the Government the crime of giving the police-
spirits to drink in order to stimulate them beyond their duty.
Mr. ROEBUCK had not used such words, what he said was
that they had been supplied with beer.
Mr. LAMB said even that was a grave charge—a most
grave, and, in his conscience he believed, a most unfounded
charge. Of course he could not say that none of the pollee
had taken any refreshment, after being there some hours; but
one thing he could say, that the whole of the division which
were first in contact with the mob, had not more than one can
of beer amongst them.
Mr. ROEBUCK—It was sworn at the inquest.

Mr. LAMB was not aware that it was so—one man had
certainly said that the police generally were drunk, but that
was too preposterous for belief. The instructions were given
to the police on the spot, and did not emanate from the Homo
office. The instructions that were given on the spot from Col.
Rowan to the police were, " Be firm, be moderate, and strike
nobody unless you are resisted." It had been represented that
the police had rushed in pell mell. Now on this part of the case
the most satisfactory evidence could be produced. In all his
inquiries, and from the previous character which the police
had borne, he believed that not one policeman offered the
slightest injury until (as it was proved before the Coroner,
by Colonel De Roos and others) a number of stones
and other missiles had been thrown by the mob.
They advanced up one street in order to clear it, and there was
plenty of room to retreat towards Bagnigge Wells, and when
in Calthorpe-street, the superintendent finding his men took
up the whole breadth of the street, contracted his division so
as to leave room for the mob to go away on either side, and
many persons did so go away. He did not believe that the
intentions of the mob were quite so orderly as had been repre-
sented by the Hon. Member. That Hon. Gentleman relied
greatly on the exclamations of a person who called out to
take care of his wife and children—(Hear, hear)—and he
said that was not the speech of a man wishing to subvert
the Constitution; perhaps not, but it was the speech of a man
who might have gone quietly away if he pleased, and he did
not choose to do so. He was glad to hear that the Hon. Gen.
tleman had not gone so far as some others had in depicting the
horrors and slaughter on that occasion. The only slaughter
he (Mr. Lamb) knew of, was that inflicted on the police. It
was certainly unwise to argue that a man having arms
to defend himself, refusing to use them when he was being as-
sailed with stones. The man who did so must be more than
mortal, and have possessed more than even military forbearance.
As to wounding women and children,there was no proof, either
in what appeared before the Coroner, or at the Home Office; it
was stated in general terms before the Coroner that such was
the fact, and indeed if females had been in the pell mell of the
affray, it would be impossible to say that some were not hurt,
but he wholly disbelieved the charge that any woman or child
was wilfully injured- With regard to the Coroner's inquest,
and the setting aside of the inquisition, it was far from
his intention to cast imputations upon the Jury. He
would leave that part of the subject to his Honourable
and Learned Friend. He hoped and trusted that the
jury meant to do, and did do, their duty satisfactorily
to themselves, but considering the farrago of evidence that
was brought before them, it was a very lucky thing the verdict
was quashed. He did not feel that the last blame was attri.
buted to the Government, and he was sure it would ultimately
appear that there was not the slightest blame to be attached to
the police for the manner in which they had discharged their
duty. He could say now, on more mature reflection, that he
could never have reconciled to himself as one who was re.
sponsible for the peace of the community, and for
the supremacy of the law, to have allowed that meet-
ing to take place; it might have been possible to have
passed off quietly, if they were let alone; but although their
plans might not have been organised, their object was illegal;
and, as long as he held office under the Crown, he could not re-
concile it to the duty of any Minister to permit a meeting, the
object of which was decidedly illegal, to pursue that object
quietly, and without taking means to bring the ringleaders to
justice, and in order to prevent effects which no man could say
would not be injurious.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, as he had been attacked
for the share he had taken in this subject, he was anxious
to vindicate himself. The petition of the jurymen was enti-
tled to the greatest respect, but he regretted that such a dis-
cussion should be brought on so very inopportunely. There
were various trials to take place arising out of this transac-
tion ; in the course of a fortnight one man was to be tried
for his life on a bill of indictment which had been found
by the Middlesex Grand Jury, and there were other trials
for misdemeanours, in which both the law and the facts must
be investigated.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He had a very
high estimation of the superintending power of that House
where there was a failure of justice, when judges
misconducted themselves, or where Government had been
guilty of any misconduct, and then let Government be im.
peached before the House; but it was inexpedient to appeal
to that House on the law or the fact,—those ought to be tried
by the ordinary Courts. The petitioners complained on two
grounds—first, that a slur had been cast upon them; and
secondly, that the trial by jury had been brought into discredit
by the inquisition being quashed. Now, in fact, no slur what-
ever was cast on the jury. When he applied to the
Court of King's Bench to quash the inquisition, he dis-
tinctly expressed his sincere respect for the Jury, and
for the intentions by which they had been actuated.
This case was spoken of as if it were unusual for the Court of
King's Bench to set aside the verdict of a jury. He would say
that such occurrences took place at least 50 times a year, and
not only were the verdicts of juries set aside, but also the judg.
meats of the Courts, and even the unanimous judgment of the
judges, upon appeal to the House of Lords. It was no slur,
then, upon the jury on this inquest that the verdict had been set
aside.—(Hear.) This could not bring the trial by jury into
disrepute ; but the improper findings of juries unchecked
by a higher Court, would have a direct tendency
to bring the trial by jury into disrepute. The verdict was con-
trary to law, and it was the bounden duty of his Majesty's
legal advisers to move that it should be quashed. The Hon.
and Learned Member for Bath, however, sets up his know-
ledge in those matters in opposition to that of the Learned
Judges, and,
he believed, of every lawyer in that House.
He had been surprised to see the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin stand by, when the judgment of the King's Bench
was impugned. He would tell the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath, that it was not for any informality
that the verdict was set aside, but because the find-
ing of the Jury was in opposition to the evidence.
The Hon. and Learned Member then went on to argue that
the jury could only have found a verdict of justifiable homi-
cide, if the evidence had shown that Robert Cully had attacked
some person, and that that person could only escape from being
slain by slaying his aggressor; this, lie contended, the evidence
by no means evinced. After commenting on the special finding of
the jury, which he also contended was not such as the case
warranted, the Hon. and Learned Member said that the
most mischievous consequences might arise from such observa-
tions as were made by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Bath and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, during
the time the jury was sitting. The Hon. Member for Dublin
had laid it down as a law, that no public meeting could
be dispersed without the previous reading of the Riot Act.
This he (the Solicitor-General) had protested against at the
time, and he niev argued that it was not necessary that the Riot
Act should be read previous to the dispersing of an illegal
meeting, as a magistrate or constable was quite competent to the
dispersion of the meeting. The Riot Act having been read, any
person remaining on the ground for one hour afterwards,
commits an act of felony; and that was the intended opera.