The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-07 00:00:00

MAY 7, 1851.

FRENCH RAIL WAY TRAFFIC.
The following are the last returns of the gross re-
ceipts of the principal French Railways :
.NORTMERN.—From April 23 to April 29: Passengers,
256,518 f.; goods, 204,507 f.; total, 461,025 f.
ROUEN.—From April 20 to April 26 : Passengers,
80,634 f.; goods, 79,515 E; total, 160,149 f.
HATRE.—From April 20 to April 26 : Passengers,
32,0731.; goods, 34,778 f. ; total 66,851 f.
ORLEANS.—From Apirl 21 to April 27 : Passengers,
94,137 E ; goods, 118,5561.; total, 212,6931.
BORDEAUY.--FrOM April 21 to April 27: Passengers,
39,953 t.; goods, 42,875 f.; total, 82,828 f.
VIERZON.—From April 21 to April 27: Passengers,
47,276 f.; goods, 44,094 E; total, 91,370 f.
BOULOGNE.—From April 21 to April 27 : Passengers,
23,344 E; goods, 16,178 E; total, 39,5221.
NANTES.—From April 19 to April 25 : Passengers,
23,5261.; goods, 14,322 E; total, 37,848 f.
STRASBURG.—From April 23 to April 29: Passengers,
85,8191.; goods, 61,3541.; total, 147.173 f.
BALE.—From April 14 to April 20 : Passengers.
91,73 V.; goods, 15,840 f.; total, 37,576 f.
MONTEREAU.—From April 16 to April 23: Passengers.
11,417 f.; goods, 14,2841.; total, 25,721 f.
MARSEILLES.—From April 16 to April 22: Passengers,
45,614 E; goods, 21,1961.; total, 66,8101.
LYONS. —From April 13 to April 19 : Passengers,
111,525 f.; goods, 37,930 f.; total, 149,455 f.
CHARTRES.—From April 14 to April 20: Passengers,
28,444 E; goods, 12,951 f.; total, 41,395 f.

IMPORTANT AND EARLY NEWS FROM GREENLAND.
—By the Enterprise, Cardno, which left the ice on the 21st
ult., arrived at Peterhead at noon on Thursday, with
9,500 seals, the result of only four days' fishing,
we have the following intelligence :—The Commerce,
Sellar, 4,000 to 5,000 seals ; Columbia, Birnie, 1,100
Dublin, Mackie, 8,000 to 9,000-90 tuns oil; Eclipse,
J. Gray, unknown; Fairy, Robertson, unknown; Ha-
milton Ross, Johnston, unknown; Mazinthien, Bur-
nett, unknown; North of Scotland, D. Gray, 1,700;
Pomona, Robertson, unknown ; Resolution. Walker,
600 ; Traveller, Hutchieson, 12,000 to 13,000; Union,
R. Walker, 5,000 to 6,000 ; Victor, Martin, 400. The above
are all Peterhead vessels. The Flamingo, Lee, of Hull, is
the only English ship reported—sbe had 400 to 500 seals.
It is feared that the ships not reported have nearly all missed
the fishing ground, owing to the peculiar state of the ice.
Foreigners are poorly fished.—Aberdeen Herald.

THE LONDON GAZETTE, May 6,
BANKRUPTCY SUPERSEDED.
William Thompson, spirit merchant, Morpeth, Nor.
humberland.

BANKRUPTS.
Richard Edwards, linen draper, Sudbury, Suffolk, to
surrender May 15, at eleven, and June 12, at twelve,
at the Court of Bankruptcy. Johnson, official assignee,
Baiinghall.street; Hardwick, Davidson, and Bradbury,
Basingball-street.
William Lane Martin, ironmonger, Gravesend, May
13, at eleven, and June 20, at half past one, at the Court
of Bankruptcy. Whitmore, official assignee, Basing-
ball-street; Wilkinson, Gurney, and Stevens, Nicholas-
lane, Lombard-street; Sherlund, Gravesend.
George Wheeler, grocer, Richmond, May 14, at half-
past one, and June 13, at half-past eleven, at the Court
of Bankruptcy. Siansfeld, official assignee; Digby,
Circus-place, Finsbury-square.
Samuel Cockerill, draper, Northampton, May 20, at
one, and June 17, at eleven, at the Court of Bankruptcy.
Edwards, official assignee, Sambrook-court, Basinghall-
street; Reed, Langford, and Marsden, Friday-street,
Cheapside.
James Evott, apothecary, Shiffnal, Shropshire, May
24, at one, and June 9, at ten, at the Birmingham Dis-
trict Court. Yalpy, official assignee, Birmingham; Mot-
tram, Knight, and Emmet, Birmingham.
Thomas Pearson, merchant, Cann-house, Devonshire,
May 22 and June 19, at eleven, at the Exeter District
Court. Hernaman, official assignee, Exeter ; Gibson
and Moore, Plymouth.
Francis Farrand, fancy cloth manufacturer, Almond-
bury, Yorkshire, May 30 and June 19, at eleven, at the
Leeds District Court. Young, official assignee, Leeds;
Sykes, Milos-bridge, near Huddersfield; Bond and Bar
wick, Leeds.

the Admiralty to creep out of at their pleasure—far
the
order proceeded:—" Those captains who rise to their
flag, and who have not served"—he took it for granted
that this meant those who have not served for six years
—" will be placed on permanent half-pay, rising in rank
as at present, but with the half-pay of rear-admirals."
The right of the Crown to select its officers had existed
for many a long year in the naval service of the country,
and he should be sorry if it should ever cease to exist.
It was in the power of the Crown to place any admiral
in the command of a squadron in any part of the world,
and the Crown was now about to delegate the same com-
mand to any commodore. The Government was now
going to ask for an increased grant of money to do that
which was an act of injustice on a certain number of
officers. It would then have, apparently, a very active
liat, from which it could select able officers; but, in
reality, the condition of the navy would be just the
same. You would have two lists, in one of which you
would have an increased amount of pay to certain admi-
rals and captains, while in the other you would con-
tinue their pay at its present amount. There was no
chance of this new regulation turning out a substantial
saving. He had mentioned the circumstances of this
case to the House for the purpose of showing how ineffi-
cient the machinery of this regulation was to carry its
object into effect.
The Earl of MINTO had no objection to the produc-
tion of this return. He concurred in the propriety of
many of the Noble Earl's observations; and especially
in that in which he had commented on the extreme in-
justice of taking as the only test of an officer's capacity
the period which he had passed in the command of a
ship at sea. Still he must say that it did appear to
him that some experience at sea was an indispensable
qualification for command. The Noble Lord then en-
tered into some further explanations on the subject of
this arrangement; but we could not hear distinctly any
two consecutive sentences of the remainder of his
speech.
After a few remarks from Lord COLCHESTER,
which were equally inaudible,
Lord STANLEY observed, that the speech of the
Noble Earl opposite had strengthened rather than con-
firmed the case made out by his Noble Friend behind
him. He hoped that he did not misapprehend the Noble
Earl opposite, when he understood him to ssy that
this document was rather a suggestion of the Board
of Admiralty than a measure of the Government.
He (Lord Stanley) did not understand that this
arrangement had yet met the approbation of the
Cabinet; yet, he could hardly reconcile the idea that it
was not yet finally determined on by the Cabinet with
the fact that the paper now moved for had been laid on
the table of the other House of Parliament, and along
with it a statement that it had been sanctioned by the
Board of Admiralty. He was afraid this " suggestion"
would shortly be carried into execution by the House of
Commons. He was glad that this discussion had taken
place, as it would call the attention of the Government
to the subject, and thus give it a locus penitentic. No
one had denied the injustice of the system of compulsory
retirement consequent upon an officer not having served
a certain number of years when it was not optional with
him whether he would serve that time or not. He asked
the Government whether they were determined to insist
upon the period of six years? That period had b?en taken
when there was a larger number of captains afloat, but
if the same period were required at a time when there
were not one-tenth or one-twentieth so many captains
afloat it would greatly enhance the difficulty of captains
arriving in due course of time at their flag.—(Hear.) •
Earl TALBOT admitted the great necessity of, if pos-
sible, limiting the dead weight of the country, but it
ought not to be done to the injury of old navel officers,
numbers of whom had been many years upon the list;
but, in spite of all their exertions, had never been able
to obtain the command of a ship, He hoped that the
question would be considered in all its bearings by Par-
liament before they sanctioned such an injustice as was
contemplated by the Government plan. While speaking
upon the subject of the navy he begged to refer to a
recent order with respect to the examination of naval
cadets. thought, though be admitted that the ex-
amination was excessively slight, only extending to such
matters as the first three rules of arithmetic and the like,
that a boy, upon being examined on his entrance into the
service, might, from nervousness or timidity, be unable
to answer the questions that were put to him, and in
such a case it was a hardship that the boy should not be
allowed to go up again, but should have his nomination
altogether cancelled.
Earl GREY said, if it had been intended to discuss
the merits of the Government plan upon this subject it
was only fair that a longer notice should have been given
of that intention. But as that had not been done, and as
the motion was only for a return, he was not possessed
of so much information upon the subject as he might
otherwise have had. In the first place, it he understood
the matter, no officer "would suffer by this arrangement
in any pecuniary point of view; but the gist of complaint
was that the feelings of officers were injured by their
being placed upon the retired instead of on the active
list. He should be the last person to sanction any mea-
sure to wound the feelings of so meritorious a class of
men, but he believed that it was for the interest of the
country and of the service that the nominal acting list
should not be unnecessarily swelled by having
-upon it a
large number of officers who were practically retired,
but that, being at present far beyond the real wants of
the service, it should be reduced as much as possible.
For his own part, he thought that the rule requiring a
certain amount of experience in the command of a
ship before taking command of a feet was an exceed-
ingly good one. Whether six years were or were not,
too long a time it was not for him to say, but, after all,
the line must be drawn somewhere, and he believed that
the rule with regard to the six years was established
in 1827, when we hcid a very much smaller number of
ships afloat than at this moment. With reference to the
other point which had been raised by the Noble Lord
opposite (Earl Talbot), he had never heard of the ques-
tion before, but he thought it appeared that the new re-
gulation was a desirable one. There were infinitely
more candidates for admission into the navy than could
by possibility be admitted, and surely it was de-
sirable that of that great number they should have the
very best. He was reminded by his Noble Friend (Esti
Minto) that in the case of an unsuccessful examination
there might probably be a second nomination, and a se-
cond examination.
Lord STANLEY observed, that in 1827 the officers
who then stood for the flag were captains of 1799, and
so late down as 1840 the officers who stood next for the
flag were captains of 1106. Therefore, in 1840 the offi-
cers who stood next were officers who had been post-cap-
tains from 1106 up to the close of the war, or 10 years.
Earl TALBOT wished to know if the Noble Earl (the
Lord Privy Seal) could confirm what the Noble Earl
at the head of the colonies had stated as to a second no-
mination being allowed for the same lad, and thereupon
a second examination?
Earl kINTO was not able to speak officially on that
point, but he gathered from what information he had
upon the subject that such would be the case.
The return was then ordered, and the House
adjourned.

had prevailed of stating the number of paupers; and he
seemed to say that this change had been made for the sake of
delusion, and rendering the returns valueless. Now, the
Hon. Member had not given him any notice that it was his
intention to allude to him as responsible for a change that
took place three years before he came into office.—(Hear,
hear.) He conjectured that that change was made for the
purpose of bringing about more correct and satisfactory
results, and his belief was that such had been the effect of
the change.—(llear, hear.) The resolution which had
been moved by the Hon. Gentleman so 'ght to affirm the ex-
pediency of relieving the destitute poor of this country by
means of a national rate.--(Hear, hear.) He did not use
these words very often in the course of his address; he
rather seemed to avoid them; but the whole question in-
volved in his proposal was, whether the House of Com-
mons was prepared to affirm the expediency f maintaining
the destitute poor out of a national rate.—(Hear, hear) He
was happy to think that the subject of a national rate up
to this time had not met with much favour from Parliament,
and he should be surprised if it was more favourably re-
ceived on that occasion. In 1847 a Committee of that
House was appointed at the instance of his predecessor (Mr.
Buller) for investigating the whole subject of settlement, re-
moval, and rating. This Committee, composed of some of
the ablest members of the House, heard evidence on the
whole of these questions, including that of a national rate,
which was brought before them very distinctly by several
witnesses; but it was remarkable enough that when the
Committee came to consider what recommendations they
should make to the House, not one member of it took up the
subject of a national rate at all, or propounded it as a re-
medy deserving a moment's consideration by Parliament.
—(Dear, hear.) Two years ago a motion was brought
forward by the late Lord Nugent in that House for the ap-
pointment of a Committee to consider the propriety of
a national rats ; but the motion of the Noble Lord
was negatived without a division.—(Hear, hear.)
They had lately been called upon to discuss in a va-
riety of ways the subject of the burdens on land. Several
motions bearing upon that point had been brought forward
by the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and everything
that ingenuity and ability could do was urged by him in
favour of his object; but the Hon. Gentleman never pro-
pounded a national rate as that which was likely to afford
relief to the agricultural or any other portion of the com-
munity.—(Hear, hear.) Such had been the reception given
to this proposal in times past, and he could not think that,
on the ground of any arguments which had been used by
the Hon. Member for West Gloucestershire, the House would
now recommend the adoption of a national rate.—(Hear.)
What was the precise proposition of the Hon. Member? It
was, that " to alleviate a portion of the burdens from which
the agricultural interest at present is suffering through the
payment of parochial poor- rates," it was necessary " to sub-
stitute an equeleed poor-rate in England and in Wales, not
exceeding Is. 6d. in the pound, and subject to local govern-
ment," The Hon. Gentleman said something about union
rating in the sou-se of his address. He would not now enter
upon that wide subject, but would simply remark that it was
essentially different from a national rate; first, because the
area over which the union rate could be distributed was ma-
nageable for all necessary purposes, and secondly, because
every person who contributed to a union rate had by himself
or his representatives a voice in the expenditure of the mo-
ney that was raised.—(Hear, hear.) It was raised within a
certain area, and expended within that same area._( Hear,
hear.) There were in England and Wales 5,000 parishes
maintaining separately their own poor, almost altogether of
an agricultural character, the rates in which were under Is.
3d. • but .he Hon. Member for West Gloucestershire pro-
posed to raise the rates of all these parishes from 2d., 3d., or
4d. in the pound, which many of them now paid, to Is. 6d.
in the pound.—allear.) The excessive injustice of this, to
say nothing of its effects on the interests of agriculture,
must be evident to every one. In one place there was a pariah
where the expenditure was carefully managed, and in another
they found one where it was wasteful and extravagant, and a
system at work at once injurious to the ratepiiyere, and &
man-
moraliziwould ng and deb
ese asing to the poor; yet the ?Hors. Gentle-
parish that n put thow paid a high rate
on the same 'Lootto Is. 6d.,
g;—the
would be lowered
and the one that now paid a low rate would be raised to the
same amount.—(Hear, hear.) The economy of the one
would have a reward, the extravagance of the other would
have no penalty.--(Hear, hear.) the Hon. Gentleman
proposed to make this change all at once. Those who this
year paid 4d. in the pound were next year to pay is. 6d.
What effect would not this have on the property of a parish!
They had lately had considerable discussions on the incidence
of taxation, but he apprehended that with such a sudden
change as this there need be no discussion as te whether the
owners or occupiers of land were likely to suffer, for unques-
tionably the result would be that both owners and occupiers
would be the sufferers.—(Hear, hear.) Let the House con-
sider the waste that must take place under such a scheme as
this. What motive would anybody have for economy?—
(Hear, hear.) What would induce boards of guardians to
investigate minutely the applications for relief that came be-
fore them, and what an opening would there not be to the ad-
mission of the most shameless impostors ?—(Heae, hear.)
Then there was the fraud and jobbing that would unques-
tionably be committe and the efforts that would be made
on all hands to get the largest slice of the general national
fund.—(Hear, hear.) There would be a scramble on all hands ; many who wished to employ labourers at the cost of
others would hail the advent of the national rate, and all the
abuses of the old poor-law would Once more be engendered.—
(Hear, hear.) Added to all these evils, could any one doubt
that there would be that which must startle everybody, an
indefinite increase of pauperism throughout the country—.
(Hear, hear)—while the new system would be one of great
cruelty to the really deserving poor?—(Hear, hear.) People
who once got into pauperism would have no motive for
coming out of it; habits of self-reliance would be de.
stroyed in the Oise of the poor, every kiad of vice would
be encouraged, and the national character debased and de-
graded.—(Hear, hear.) Next let the House look at the
expense of the plan. The Hon. Gentleman proposed that
in no case should the assessment exceed is. 6d. in the pound.
Now, the total value of the rateable property of the country
in 1847 was 67,320,587/. The amount levied last year under
the head of parochial poor-rates, out of which county-rates,
borough rates, and other items were paid, was 7,270,492/.
What would be the produce of a rate of 18.6 d. in the pound?
It would amount to 5,049,044/. Deducting that from the
amount actually paid last year for the poor there would be a
,deficit of 2,231,4484.- (Hear, hear. ; This was to begin
with. The Hon. Gentleman would start with a provision
that was upwards of 2,000,000/. below the necessary expen-
diture; and how was it to be prpvided for? It must either
:come out of the consolidated fund or the poor must starve.
'The Hon. Gentleman said he would have nothing to do
with the consolidated fund, and, therefore, as the poor could
not be allowed to starve, the assessment must be raised
above is. 6d. in the pound, which his resolution declared
Was not to be surpassed.—( Hear hear) Any proposal more
mischievous or rash it was difficult to conceive; indeed it
swas the rashest and most inconsiderate scheme ever, per-
haps, brought before Parliament.—(Hear.) But then
the Honourable Gentleman said the scheme was to
be subject to local government. Now, was it pos-
sible to conceive of local self-government with a national
rate to manage?— (Hear, hear.) Why, the thing would
become such a nuisance that everybody would be
petitioning for the abolition of local self-government as re-
spected the poor-rate.--(Hear.) He had never been for
doing away with local government, and he believed it would
.'be one of the greatest calamities to the country if it were
destroyed ; but he believed this would be a great blow at its
-existence. Then, if there was to be a central board, only
let the House think of the stipendiaries that would be neces-
sary to relieve the destitute poor in some 15,0,0 places in
England and Wales, and the unconstitutional system thereby
encouraged. Let the House also consider what the conse-
quences would be in times of pressure and difficulty, when it
was understood by the poor that the Government of the
country held the national purse for their relief.—(Hear,
hear.) How would they be able to manage in periods of
convulsion with such an understanding among the people?—
( Hear, hear.) Why, it would be attended with danger to all
the best institutions of the country..,.( Hear, hear ) The
-Hon. Gentleman concluded by expressing the hope that the
House would negative the motion of the Hon. Member for
West Gloucestershire.
Mr. G. BERKELEY, after a few words in reply, said he
Would not press his motion upon the House, and
• The motion was then withdrawn.
SPIRITS IN BOND.
Lord NAAS rose to introduce his motion on the above
subject. It was, in effect, the same motion which he had
the honour to submit to the House last year, the principle of
which was affirmed by a majority of the House on two oc-
casions, and which was rejected the third time by a narrow
majority of one. (Hear, hear.) The complaint he had to
make on toe part of those interested in Irish spirits was that
the duty was levied, not on the quantity of spirits that went
into consumption, but on the quantity originally measured
into the spirit receiver, or what was technically called the
worm end, so that if the spirits were left for a considerable
time in bond, the owners had to pay duty on a considerable
quantity that had been lost by waste and evaporation. In
making this motion he laid no claim to any reduction of
taxation, or to any part of the surplus of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. It was said that the proposal he made
would lead to fraud, and that it was an attempt to un-
settle the state of matters arranged after the appointment
of the Committee on the sugar and coffee duties, in 1848.
He found four sets of resolutions submitted to the Com-
mittee, and out of those four only one alluded to the dis-
tillers' case at all. That, he thought, might be taken as a
proof that the distillers were no parties to the settlement
which had been come to on this subject. But, assuming
that the measure of 18 8 was a settlement of the question,
and that the distillers were satisfied with it, what was the
baais on which it was made? There was a differential duty
between colonial and home-made spirits, but it was not made
in any degree by way of protection; it was merely laid on
as an equivalent, and a very inadequate equivalent, for the
restrictions and disadvantages under which the home distil-
lers laboured on account of the laws enacted for securing the
revenue. The differential duty between the colonial and
home-made spirits was 4d. per gallon. It was said that the
adoption of the plan he advocated would occasion a con-
siderable loss to the revenue. He had never heard of any
calculation as to the probable amount of that loss, and he
believed it was a mere matter of speculation. His opinion
was that, so far from any loss being sustained, if that plan
were adopted the revenue would be a considerable gainer. It
would cause a great increase in the consumption of whisky,
and that without any increase of intemperance, because the
sat of spirits which would then come into consumption
ed
would be very different from that which was
onuoly con-
hate
sum in the three kingdoms. The people
was
rips and proaer spirit instead of the raw, wcrudestuff
which they were now obliged to consume.regard
With
well known that
to the export trade in spirits,
it
far from its being a thriving trade,
during last year it had considerabhlyefoduencd by reasedte returns,h and, so
our export
from the United Kingdom amounted _
that while, during the last month,
ytehaerteoefx6:sro,yoortaeortipognoaritiaoanteisoa,:noinof
mention wTausrumu
spirits, gadheoudtutrhinegret!luerniastthe article. of home made
evaluabled.
n p
epieurttieofn
fact,
of
tsrpaidriet,s,wwashinchet
the reten-
tion of the present duty
tamatotittenlet.ed almost to a prohibition
of the export trade in the true the English
monigcehtme
forma
n 't mentioned.
distillers did not call for any change in the present system.
But what was the reason? Theirs was a Spirit in its uality
by the Irish
quite different fromhthat which was consumed l'
and the Scotch. 'I ere was only eight distillers in England,
notwithstanding he enormous quantity of spirits consumed
in this country. Owing to there being so few distillers,
they, in effect, possessed a monopoly of the trade, and they perceived th.t if the plan which he (Lord Naa) desired to see adopted were carried out, and the allowances granted to
the Irish and Scotch distillers, it would considerably inter-
fere with their monopoly,
Leylise:giVwehneeuratlshecfdtihfreerlZtaisleu,
'11;13 'noble Lord then read the
following opinions of Messrs. Logic and Halliburton, Sur-
uwthyiewhaswaiss.d6edli.v:e—red by them
" When spirits remain any time in the duty free ware-
house, they hill offiu strengaa often as much as 5 per cent.,
and also fall short in quantity, in many cases to the same
amount. The duty is, however, charged en the original
quantity and strength stored, the distiller has, therefore, not
only to
pay the duty in the first instance for the quantity
wasted in store by evaporation and leakage, but he has
again to pay for the difference in strength between 11 or
15 per cent., and the strength at which the spirits were
actually taken out of store. This we consider a very
great hardship, and it should in our opinion, beimme-
diately ren4cdled. The beard are al-are that: thc; /91-

porterso nt
titd;
reet,
s
(ileu ty
a ie. eeoefl,a
taaeirdil dfoNerveehei egennr
itata,ngkde ntcoooliotttnhi
ea ofl hpueiarniattss-iatrslen:ha_ (eyain sdbe
if
each cask is then found to contain, although, Per7l
years under bond ; we think it would be but
brs lust
this equitable regulation, which the importers of
ruin, and hollands have so long
tended to the distillers of these countries; indeed, w
Si 'er it would absolutely be necessary, in order to prom
them."
last
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War ,
enjoyed, should be
tdh not e ujg°i''
conditionsaid th at this f
hlev apsooar
ot Scotland,question whicheud
thatcone
he concerned
the proposition his support, because it would dernorealai;,
people of that country by increasing intemperance n ,
them. But, so far was he (Lord Naas) from agreti
the
the Right Hon. Gentleman, that his Upinion was !,u8
„,
they wool
land, because (as he had said before) the aunts ,
•
He hoped sure would tend to improve the habirs of the people or acvh,
consume would be of a better quality. ceodul
nt or " siou of this demand would not be an unsettlement
losse
to tb,'
question; that it was not likely to cause any grea
had proved to the satisfaction of the Ilouse that the cori,c.e4
would encourage the export trade in spirits; th ,t it would
increase intemperance; hat it would give additional
revenue; that it would not open a door to fra.usl_,4d'ai
very
ment to the poor; and, lastly, that it would be b
inareas'
portant measure in an agricultural point of view, Y
all the ing the markets to the farmers. In consequence ~ng
considerations, he thought he had not done wro
0151
sub-
mitting his proposition to the House.—(Cheers.)
reS t
Noble Lord concluded by moving that the House
Lord for
Mr. J. WILSON, after complimenting
the
Noad brouglil
it-
selfin
eeinetfo
levying
vC:soimngmtiittteeed,a tt oy toank e into
home-made
epconsiderationritaibatlhebeeap. present
the clear and temperate manner in which be h brought
his motion forward, said, that as the question
übs& already settled by a Parliamentary Committee, andsof the;
quently by the House in consequence of the report at an!
Committee, he (lid not feel it necessary to enter egaineestios
great length into the subject. If there was one.l, cone.
more than another which engaged the attention of I,u°
mittee of 1848 it was the arrangement of the aPirltdeutelines.-
It was true no Irish distiller was examined before thatmete& mittee, nor was there any Irish Member on the Co not
—( Hear.) When that Committee was appointed it
contemplated to make the spirit duties the subject rn any
That would fully account for the fact of there not bung i
Irish Member on the Committee.. Although the originalduties
sPir!c`b took
tention of Lord George I3entinck excluded the
from consideration, yet during the discussions
place before the Committee the rate of duty :evied
,on co
rum became so important a subject that the whoreTogioaairy.,
of the spirit duties was necessarily involved in the b rut, although no Irish distiller was examined, a Se° able of
dis-
tiller of great eminence and ability, and a person capable
Mr.
and'
as
giving the fullest information on the subject— u
tbe
was examined with regard to the Scotch distilleries,
he (Mr. Wilson) understood the Noble Lord to Plattise
claim of the Irish and of the Scotch distillers on the
co.
principle, he thought their case could not be more ahlY„,eal
ducted than by Mr. Greig. With regard to the diffetl, his
duty, although he believed the Noble Lord was correctei"„ot
statement generally, yet he would find, from subs 61"1,0
discussions that ensued, that a more correct egiresteseeich afterwards made as to the component parts of that 4d.
enay
constituted that differential duty. It was intended a Flit
of the 4d. should represent the deficiency in bonded ary
but a large quantity of spirits went direct from the dirtntige
into consumption, and thus the distiller had the advs 10
of the penny. Thus, the total quantity of spirits rOSI",,Iy
Scotland in 1850 was 11,500,000 gallons, of which
l'tes
3,760,000 gallons went into bond, leaving the producL ad'
benefit of the penny; and the Irish distiller had thesoe
vantage of Id. per gallon on 2,000,000 gallons, in the se,
for the same year. He was aware the number at
bid
tilleries bad diminished in Ireland, and no doubt them
ply
been numerous instances of local distress, but that was:tate
Alia same thing that had taken place in every manda wa-
in this country also; and the whole tendency ef oe
nufacture was to grow up into large establishments, awn' gel
ing up the smaller ones by the application of machinery
capital. The Noble Lord had not stated that the
glut' tee
of spirits produced had increased considerably, thouect abet
number of distilleries had been diminished. In 1841 "eel.
were 82 distilleries in Ireland, which produced 6,900,000 °es,
lons, and last year, though there were snly 53 distillervir
the quantity of spirit made was 8,2'66,000 gallons. littlacer
posed the object of this motion was to compare the pre lett
of home-made spirits with the producer of rum. But 000
were the facts? In 1847, the last year before the dritlico
rum was lowered, the quantity of spirits made in Irelahe•
6,370,000. In 1850, alter four years of competition vr,n/L
rum at the altered duty, it had increased to 7,4oSouvAis
There was a complaint that the trade with England hard diminished, but would Hon. Gentlemen look from those fe 0
preceding 1846, when the average export from Ireland! Wm
300,000 gallons, to last year, when it amounted to 871st
gallons? Ile admitted it had risen to 1,418,000 gallor3ssj
1846, but in the year previous the average was as ha Pbe
stated, and it had fallen from that year till 1853, at which
last returns showed the above result. Now, it happened tbfit
simultaneously with this decrease from Ireland there bad beeo
an increase is the imports from Scotland. The qua ll
imported from the latter country had increased last year frecp,
1,500,003 gallons to 2,6W,000 gallons, and therefore ti le
2-,1 ficiency of imports from Ireland was more than comper e3tior
by the increase from Scotland. It would be worth while
the Irish distillers to look to this question, and see why s,°;, a result had taken place; for unquestionably the Scotch ol
tillers hail no advantages which they did not posse 0 iofr
equal proportion. So far from the low duty having belai
vourable to the colonies, it would appear there had ee contrary result. The quantity of home-made spirits in Eel.
land, Ireland, and Scotland in 1848 was 22,202,000 ga in 1850 it had increased to 23,862,000 gallons, an increase °j
1,600,000 gallons in two years, while Ireland and Sco f /J. 11: showed an increase of 920,000 gallons on the same pc :l4
ig
notwithstanding this competition with the colonies. P
them look to the colonial spirits, and they would find th
tit ,5
1847 the consumption of rum was 3,328,000 gallons, while 1850 it had fallen to 2,902,000 gallons, showing a decre,sse of
400,000 gallons on the foreign produce. Would any one Aitb these facts before him pretend to say the settlement of 1' was unfair to the home produce?—(Hear, hear.) The Scotch and Irish distillers could send their produce into
-
this country, but the produce of the English distillers oi* re'; tifie,s was prohibited in Scotland and Ireland.—(No, ne./
English raw sprits re ight be introduced into those cour ttrieft
but not, he believed, the compound spirit, which alone• 10,5
consumed. The Scotch and Irish distillers would think tile°,
case a hard ono it that rule applied to them. If any party
'The
cause to complain, it was the English distiller.
consumption of spirits manufactured in England had de-
creased during the last ten years. In 1841 the quantit, v of
Etigish-made spirits consumed in England was 5,5007 000
gallons; in 185 u it was 5,800,000 gallons, showing a fal ling
off of 100,000 gallons. While this was the position of as
English distilier, the consumption of Scotch spirits had creased in his own market during the same period lfroo
4,000,000 of gallons and upwards to nearly 6,000,000 of gal-
lons, and of Irish spirits, from 2,300,000 to 3,400,000 al ,lone-
These facts showed that the Scotch and Irish distiller s had
no reason to complain of the Excise regulations. I- Trader
these circumstances he called upon the House not to' dis-
turb the settlement which was come to in 1848. If they
should determine to grant the prayer of the Irish and S eitch-
distillers, the colonial distiller would immediately claiim re-
lief' to the same extent, and the struggle would probably eau'
in the abolition of the spirit duties altogether.
Mr. REYNOLDS said, the Honourable Gentleman
who
bad just sat down had, referring to the Committee of 184 S,
talked of a settlement and an arrangement. He (gr.
Reynolds) was not aware of any arrangement having beea
come to, though he had paid much attention to the subjec
at the time. There was, in fact, no Irishman either on thsi'
Committee, nor examined as a witness before it; but hi
way of reconciling them to the conclusions of the Corn
mittee, the Honourable Gentleman had stated that User a
were two Scotchmen examined before it. Though he evil
the great figure-Member—(A laugh)—put forward by t be
Government, the Honourable Gentleman had failed, with .
his statistics,
treated. to convince hirn (Mr. Reynolds) that they h
sd
been fairly , the Honourable Gentleman h
ad
rather astonished him by quoting figures which only e isted in his own fertile imagination. He had said, for la'
stance, that the loss from leakage in Ireland to the (
is-
tiller was ' arid in Scotland 1-10 d. Why, an offit pia'
document which he (Mr Reynolds) held in his hand show red that in the bonded warehouse in Dublin the total deficicne:l
by leakage and evaporation on twelve puncheons was 1411
gallons, or 81/2 per cent., instead of a penny and. ail
eighth. Again, with respect to the differential duty
of 4d., the Honourable Gentleman s'id that 1(1.
was allowed for plant, 34 d. for another descries,.
Lion of plant, and ld. for a third description of plant,
and the three together the lion. Gentleman, with all his
power of figures, called 3%(1., while it was only 2%d. The
fact, however, was that 3&d. was allowed for the greater cost
of the plant of the home manufacturer,
,as compared 'with
the foreign and colonial manufacturer, and id. for lealsage
and evaporation. But to
plaint—the Frenchman, the Portuguese, the Spaniard--in
might
send
dme to
hisowtnhewirneea,lrcuamu,seorobfrileenmdy-
iwnotordLaynypatorrteoir theer Llnited Kingdom, and have it bonded in the Queen's stores for five or six years, and when he took
it out he paid duty only 011 the quantityut aanseltostrtehnegltrhiswhhaincah
existed at the time of taking it out; but
Scotch subjects of the realm, they paid a penalty amounting
considerable. For if a.
in some cases to something very
vap2osrapteedr
half of
iotleeestrrepurgotohfe
lveeaskseedl,
halfsay that of 120 a
quantityl l onasnd ande
while in bond, the bonding party
imet
rhu,ses
therefore,
epfi
oat
rylev, aa
did
dua tnyotof2s
question,
contain. I
d..
per gallon in Ireland upon every proof gallon which had-
ib,eheenq luoesett,i
oann dw
awahni ceht
at haep
ivriets.sdeel
a,
labour ;it was an agricultural question—a question of the
of
profitable employment of the labour of the country. The
present was the third time they had tried this question ;last
e ear they had been beaten by a majority of one, but he
trusted that that night they should have a considerable ma-
jority. He did not believe teat any Irish Members would
vote against them. However they, might differ, like other
men, on some other ques ions, on this he trusted they were all
agreed.
Mr. B. CARTER opposed the motion. If the Noble Lord's
(Lord Naas) views were carried out it would destroy the
distinction between Excise and Customs t the duty in the one
case being paid on consumption, in the other en production;
besides, it was asking an unfair advantage for the Scotch
and Irish
had distillers over the English distiller. If a case
been made out for anything it was for a Committee nee
Mr. GROGAN reminded the House that the motion, if
carried, would confer a benefit on the English as well as on
the Irish and Scotch distiller. As the case stood an ad-
'vantage was conferred on the foreigner from which they
shut out their own fellow-subjects. The Customs and Ex-
cise system ought to be identified. The argument of the
Hon. Member for Westbury was directly at variance with
the evidence given before the Committee by Mr. Wood, who
stated that the differential duties between colonial and Bri-
ilodwoi on the
thbeu quantity
not
anti a
ty t the expense
of spirit at
the time of paying the duty. A puncheon of whisky was also
Bri-
tish spirits were just and right because of the peculiar charges
incident to Scotch and Irish spirits. A pILE cheon of foreign
brandy was landed at Liverpool, where it remained five or
osifxth 3e. importer,
ears
impro%Winhgo aoundlympeal
bonded at Liverpool, but in the first place it paid a duty
on the decrease in taking it out of bond in Ireland, and then
came to England, and might be bonded, perhaps, in the same
store as the puncheon of French brandy. He assumed that
both decreased equally: but what Was the positioo of the
owners? 'rho Frenchman took his brandy out, and paid
only on the quantity in the cask at that time; while
the
Irishman or the Seotelitnan, in addition to paying on the de-
crease in his own cou try, paid also on the deficiency occur-
ring after the time when his g lets were bonded in England
detaitseree
might
twis)t:
ma
afadcetoNuV
t2_l
caot the highot iie ratey toi the English
whatever
figurest. The Hon. Memer for Westbury had endeavoured
by
to institute an invidious comparison as to the extent of trade
carried on with England by Ireland and Scotland ; but the
truth was, that both Ireland and Scotland were suffering
from one common injuatice, and now came to ask a remedy at
the hands of the House. The increase in the manufacture
to which allusion ha been made would not remedy the evil,
but rather magnify it. The Hon. Member for Westbury had
referred to the number of gallons brought to charge as an
indication of prosperity; but he had always thought it much.
more beneficial to have a number of distillers distributed
throughout the country than to have all the business cons°-
, 'dated in the hands of aNW large capitalica, All that the