The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-01 00:00:00

session to the day on whirl, ti,e di9euss;on occuired. It

is impossible, therrfore, fir ti.e Nobl. Lord tairlyto say,

upon refl,eCon, that be was taken by surprise. What too
was ever more deliberate than that discussion ? Thr

Nob'e Lord says that the motion was advocated by dif-
ferent gentlemen on dif•rent grounds. I heard no diffe-
rent grounds; the only difference I heard was, that one set
of gentlemen contended that it would be sufficient to take

half the tax, while another set insisted that the whole

should be repealed. I was among the latter; and I did
not rear one word from the other side in the way of
answer. The only answer was, that truly Ministers could
not spare it. That appeared to my mind not so much the
question, as whether the pevle could spare it.—(Cheers.)
. . -

However, that point I will leave, and talk of the part of

the Noble Lori's speech which pleased me. He said in
one place, that the income tax formerly imposed mis very
unpopular, and be said truly. It was very unpopular.
The Hon. Alderman told us, that if it were but a property
income tax, he did not care about the particulars; but let

me tell him that if it were such a tax a 4 was before itn-

posed, it would not be collected half a year.—(Cheers.)
Although, under no circumstances, would I give my vote
for a property income tax, yet it might be made very dif-
ferent Rout th which existed famerly. What w,is that?
It was the most unfair, the foulest tix, ever laid upon the

people—(Hear)—one only excepted, of which I shall

speak on another occasion. Hare was a surgeon with an
incorne of one thousand pounds a year, depending entirely

on his life, his health,...—his success, perhaps, in setting a
bone. All taken together, it would not be worth four
years' purchase ; and yet, though he might be fifty or
sixty years old—thanks to the Whigs, who came in in
1806—ho was obliged to pay 10 per cent. upon his 1,0001.

a year, instead of 61 per cent., which was the rule before

they entered upon i.ffic What I have said of the sur•
geon applies to other persons in trade. The surgeon was
taxed 10 per cent. on his income—l was taxed 10 per cent.
on my income. If I had broken a finger or two, or gone
blind, I should have been ahle to earn no income, but will
I must have paid my 10 per cent. The Lord or gentleman
with a landed estate in his own possession in perpetuity
paid no more ; his widow and children had it at his
death, but the widow and children of the surgeon were
left totally unprovided for. Was that a fair tax ?-
IClie-as.) I trust that the Noble Lord will not consent
to such a tax. I trust that the Members for the City, if
they were absent from the division on Frid.y night by
accident, will not be absent when a proposition is
made to saddle the country with such a t,:c as that.—
( Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord said this, which
pleased me so much—that you cannot exempt one class
and not another. Maik the justice of this—that it is
unfair to exempt one class and to lay the tax upon another.
Such a course would render the Government and the
Parliament hateful. I agree, too, with every vein in my
body, when the Noble Lord laid it down that every man
ought to pay taxes in proportion to the amount of his
property and the protection it required. This position
may be disputed by some, and very likely it will be m:t
by my Right Hon. Opponent (Mr. S. Rice). I am
pledged to show, and I will do it on the proper occasion,
that millions a-year were collected from persons possessing
nothing but personal property, while real property escapes
from the payment of a single farthing.—(Hear.) I am
ple ,ged to show a great deal more than that to be sure.—
(Cheers, and laughter.) Ministers have always promised
a great deal to the people ; they have dealt in speeches
which remind me of a line of Swift's—
Fine words: I wonder where you stole 'em."

I am sure they are not to be found in the 55th Geo. 111.,
nor in the 107th chapter of the 3d Geo. IV. both relating
to stamps, and only differing as the one is more profligate
than the other. Under chose statutes, a man having an
estate of 200,000/. value, pays no more for stamps than a
man who has a piece of land of only 2001. value. But I
will put that matter aside for the pre- ent, that I may ad
vert to what was said by some other Members. I think
with the Noble Lord, that if any of the assessed taxes are
to be taken off, the whole ought to be repealed because
that puts an end to all expense at once. The vexation
will nut be diminished, if you leave any part of them. I

do not ascribe that vexation to the wishes or intentions a
Government, because I do not ascribe to them a desire to
create ill will, and to make enemies for nothing; but the
mode of collection is such, that you must employ persons
who ought not to be employed by anybody. The oppres-
sion under the head of surcharges is beyond all descrip-
tion. The Noble Lord will hardly believe what lam now
going to say. I have been charged with the tax fur a
shopman fur two years: now I have no shopman, but I
keep a shoptvoman.—(Laughter.) When the collector
has applied for the tax, she has answered that there is no
shopolan ; and the retort was, " Well, then, Mr. Colotett
may appeal." I did appeal; but it was of no use. When
I was at Barn Elms I was charged with the tax tbr a
bailiff. That, said I, 1 will not pay; and Gud knows
how many letters I received from a Air. Bates, I think
was his name.—(Question, question.) A motion has
been made. for the repeal of the house and window
tax : I am showing the evils anti annoyances that
arise from the collection of it ; and if I am not
speaking to the question, I am no judge of what
the question is.—(Cheers.) Gentlemen may be well
assured that if they have a mind to come to the end
of my speech quickly, the best thing for them to do is
nut to interrupt me. To return : I never did, and never
woad pay that bailif tax. What I relate of myself is
only an i lustration: it is notorious all over the kingdom
that people in the middle ranks of life are grievously suf•
fering in the same way. I had a petition to present to-
night, which I did not present because it dad not exactly
belong to this debate; it is from nine tanners, and it con-
tains many very authentic details. They were cited to
appear before Consinissioners fourteen miles from home, on
a market-day, too, and at a distance from the market
town, for sporting without a license : when they arrived
not a particle of evidence was adduced against them, and
they applied to the Commissioners to know who was to
pay them for their loss of time and travelling expenses. I
need not add drat they obtained nothing ; and this is one
of the evils that ought not to be permitted to exist. If
taxes are nut repealed, something ought to bedews to remedy
this species of annoyance. A Noble Lord has talked of
a mouvenient party, adopting the Frenca term, as if there
oat a ntouvement party here, wishing to level all distinc-
tions of rank, and to destroy all rights of property. He
asked what was the first cause of this party in France, and
hinted that sotto:along of the kind was aimed at in England.
But those who talk in this way never go back to the
real origin of the French Revolution; they only begin
with Danton and Robespierre.—(Question.) If they look
into Young, they will see that the great first cause of the
French Revolution was the unequal assessment of the taxes;
not the weight of taxation, but the unequal assessment—
(Hear)--laying more upon the poor than upon the rich, as
classes became lower, the assessment was heavier, par-
ticularly upon the sub-delegues, which I believe answered
to our surcharges. What was the answer to us, when we
adopted the resolution we are now called upon to rescind ?
What was the sole answer ? We proved the cost of the
malt, end the injurious consequences of the tax ; that Go-
vernment only got 155., while the cost to the people was
enhanced 40s. ; and what was the answer ? "We can•
not spare the money—we must have the money—we can-
not do without it." Now the thug is, to show that
Government can do without it. (Cheers.) And for
this purpose, what have we more to do, without going into
particulars, than to prove that our establishments now cost
within a trifle of fourteen millions a year, while at the end
of the last peaCe they cost no more than about 4 200,000/.
Why should they cost mole now than then ? Is there any
reason It rit ? Is the late successful war a good reason
tot it ? Is your abuodant harvest of glory a good reason
for it ? Is your having colonies a good reason far it ?
Were your colonies a gain, or were they not ? " Yes, a
gain, to be sure," the Noble Lord will say ; " we gained
dominion." Dominion ! Did we gain wealth as well as
dominion ? Strange, that we should grow poor by having
gained wealth ! But this fact let me state, for the infor-
mation of the House, that we expend more upon Canada,
in Englisti money, evt•ry year, than the total amount of
goods exported to that colony. Thus, auto; colonies are
no gain. It we have won anything, we have won a loss.
--(Cheers.) But, besides our establishments, what have
we? Our civil list us d the amount in 1792—sala-
lies are double what they were in 1792. The Right
Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J ones Graham) knows that
113 Privy Ominciilors cost the country no less a suer
than 650,000/.—that pensions are far greater than they
were in 1792, and that many of diem have been bestowed
in defiance of torte letter of the law. We pay 51,000/. to
the retired clef Its of the War-office alone. Last year
41,0001. wes expended for secret service-money ; after
eighteen years of peace that sum was paid for spies and
informers. We have an army, a militia, a yeomanry
cavalry, a police for the treat towns, yet still 41,0001.
was wanted for spies and informers. This money was so
secretly expended, that no account is to be rendered, and
the
roan
,:,‘,:estlei
laopnwady spwei
people
:le);
prove
iepr
ourselvesmt their
It, ompname
maiiititeav .eaonni s.B
to his colleague. We call ourselves the guardians of the
public
truly,
ke.
when-
ever theyrie,
eienr s
sk
tedi
I,tittoi
the
take
ol
poor
rmo
mtbi t,arn vfhonoraut eisdvoeuhr
South
have
tlpmi Le
wish
int
of wholesome beer, and not be compelled to drink water,
why does he not vote for saving this 11,000/. ? After all,
the point for us to decide upon is, whether the money
cannot be saved ? " Oh, no," say some Hon. Gentlemen,
" we cannot save it without a breach of the national

004
faith,' I Lave often wondered ;viten I bear.. „.or
gentlemen—aye, and officers of state—talk totho,
of the nee( seity of preserving national faith, t! that
did not think of it before. Do they rememnelobioi
doubled the amount of the debt ? Yet theta scolo,
there was a certain measure in tbe year
under the guidance of the first-rate oracle fitr3otd
and second-rate oracle liuskisson—the OrPll:_teser
Amphion of the day, who, as an Honourablereeeh,
said, charmed the House by the music of thein'Pro
—(Cheers and laughter.) They elt' no scruple i
ing faith with all the rest of the notion.--(flearlaoo
last it was discovered that it was impossible to dot t°
in this respect ; and here is what land.owners ohig
ad
attend to. Justice ought to be done between t el0;10
the people ; but you never will prevail upon thosei_. o-
live by the taxes to do justice to those who do not
the
the taxes.--( Hear, hear.) Those who live by th :00
govern the affairs of the nation ; they fatten 011°04
taxes, and therefore they ruin all those who receive
1819, ;were
out of the taxes, and first or last ruin themselves too. jierto
is not at this moment a gentleman in England of trool
fortune, and who has a comfit erable Who, lo,„ itt
look round with sorrow at the number of chil'
vhom he has to provide, in order that they nlaY,.ag,
the same style as that to which he has birroelf beradia
customed. Therefore it is that we go on anti onBo,to
every direction are eaten up with usury ; and On
teo:
in consequence of a degree of infatuation such a'oolr
before afflicted mortal man.— Cheers.) But, in e
tN
sion—( Hear)—let me observe, that it ig
character of the House that we are now to decine',4o!
may amuse ourselves with the idea that what we
rut?
he undone ; we may fancy that we are tinseet'; 00°'
truth is, that the eyes of the whole nation are ursore
Last Saturday night the bells in Berkshire tared pie
were rineino fur joy at the repeal of the malt t, doe
how the feelings of the people will be dismal:Pint'
pressed when they find that they hive been deceived(
ofoThtr
too, by whom? By a reformed House of Gunofol tbt
having sat for three months, without Inak'niofiri
slightest effort to relieve them. The 111ini5tero f, 1),.1j;
produced his budget, which not only gave nnire lett°.
showed that no relief would be given, on FrteaaoYesoool:
House of Commons—the reformed House 01
—took off half the malt tax, and that deteranioSiioia
people hailed with joy. Are you prepared to 53Y toe.:
morrow shall carry to your constituents the neel'o trio,
Tuesday you rescioded the resolution which 0f- tair(
you had without qualification adopted ? Talk !,-(100'018
Parliaments! what nominee Parliament bad 'II,' oiacle)
thing half so bad? What could a nominee raj it frAi
do more than be the lacqueys of the Alinis'er9
formed Parliament takes on Friday the first steP s'
To
a removal of the burdens of the people, and °° 04;)
the Members of that reformed Parliament are oed
in to do the behests of a Ministry vvhich Pr°•oteltsr
opposed to all reductions Since your election ) jorl
been breathing an atmosphere in which men cc'er:i he el
tomed to eat their words, and the successors o' -101t1'
nominee. Parliament evince as strong an aPPettivteo t ep
we every
withdraw
,evdgef
rgoimv given
ot
toi a
allb
species of food as any of its predecessors. ' frt
fidence can the people have in men who so dePaloo'''
eyes In
people will, if you rescind the best vote you eso I;
liament possesses the confidence of the peoPtio V 4
anticipate any but the most fatal results. A 45 t
tit
on the other side, bad told the Hous-, that le•041,
agreed to the proposition that he had tois nightfotof,o
odcyonofifdecnocnes';'nea°o:?o-
- resign ; at which the House falls int° I,bty slier
utmost consternation.—(A laugh.) Like nail'
00-'
dren whom a mother might lock up in a dark r
cried out, " Oh ! Do not leave us, mananiY--'4Vrtr'
not leave us."—(Great laughter.) A se°3l-re
quitted the senate house, saying that the sane 000 la,
destroyed him, would likewise consume those
left behind.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Id" tit (114)
the Noble Lord says anything of the no, nni 50f:
that I should ever insinuate anything nr. „", e
(Murmurs and laughter)—but, to repeat t'-oottit 'd
that I put let-fore—How can you ever agairl tress
'
constituents in the face after rescinding the vntei;olttoa
night—not that the importance lay in the ente,. er e'o;
in the dep., e in which it might affect the charia;
the
sietrctc,:fioonfout,hiott
wheanutn
House itself, and the degree in which it wflul"o• ?
ee annihilationdoet,
the confidence of the people in their representat-efrig
constitutionth
fipriiednee a'do u
world.—(Hear, heir.) A beeold
Mr. RICE said that strenuous efforts
night made to alarm them into abiding by the °pal::
they had adopted on Friday night. R' f'rerice,ostefl,s'
made to the Roman history, and to their ovt0:"
liar history—from the dignity of ancient anna'ocitis/0
the language of the nureery, for the purpose °foe, Or
their minds sentiments of dread. Let the 1•113•• so'
mind that they were not called upon to repeal atelS'osrol
they were not even required to alter a res"•,t:bitla
which it Bill was to be founded ; it was no 'l3c-I'beeo
was merely the change of a simple resolutioo• to'r.o
Hon Members prepare() to say that theY elelO,-ooro
relief to all the other classes to whom the 1 hie''
tldhweih,
aei
,Eitirhaasi
toigoionaof;:
relief had been held out by the finance plan n' iota
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and girl thigobi
only who were to be benefited by the rrrti• °,oe"::1,
tax?—(Cheero.) Much had to-n said ab "
of the House ; but let it not be foraottem
theythat
House adhered to the resolution of FridaY, &Pi
consult their consistency much less than if oth':ote'l°
from it, for he would contend that they had iperPle
solemnly, and after full notice, ',jeered the Pr ters;;)
property tax than adopted that of ,r3l ottloo•
the malt duty. By 220 to 125 theY ni` the
voV
Committee on a question which involve° thar.ro
now in dispute; and he would, therefo lec'or?
re, o
they did so, they much ily
more forma. parP
came to a vote than when—being taken 11). FrOej,
they arrived at the vote of Friday. His 14 Foe ouch.,
stated, that if the malt tax werey at all to o.ti. tocEfol
would be better to repeal it altogether; anj.l,tice'r/t
how could they, with any show of reason or Ja f the/
to the population of the towns the o Dent Of sre
a ate ,de 31)
and window duty? The two together )4: 0000.'
somewhere about 6,800,000/. Now he "`l'o the co°
it was utterly impossible for the business °I o
to be carried on by any Government with sn'llotitet-00.
of its means. He begged to know ovhattbt
proposed in lieu of that tax. It was an easy t .APerti"
of a property tax, but the imposition of that f3or CSY
it should operate equ (11y, and the machinery eel I
it into beneficial effect were matters of the ?nevi°,
culty, even supposing it was open to no obieft'ccbiit
of any other kind. Ile confessed it did e%ci°
the utmost surprise to find two Honnnr,sb tbe II
representing the city of London advocal I
sition of a property tax, for it °maltose fit' oi
less. In 1816 a petition was presenterlatitic",
worshipful body in toat city, in which theorof s
forth the abhorrence with which they remits the; psi
tax, as well with respect to its principle aster 0131:0C,
its operation as being vexatious and oppressifrots!
big to maintain an odious, arbitrary, and tnt° fi04,11/:
quisition into the most private circunistonce9:oeorlo
hostile to every sense of freedom which the 0° rev'
country entertained, and repugnant to the bre Feoi,i,
the British Constitution. So abhorrent °Jot, tbefotero
of the citizens of Lon ton was that taxi 1"$0: elote,
not hear of a reduction of it even to the est:eere'iodrif
cent.—(An lion. Member said that at theftfle„ooirt
he did not belong to the city of London./ rto " ore
doubt the citizens of London were now as avoetio r°„,lats
ation as they had ever b•en. Let those •atot`•,,, '
ously opposed the malt duty and the asseSe ooro4
lest they brought upon themselves sorneth'r•gg
they lost all recollection of the fable of I‘:lo'icteut,ii4.
King Log ? Let diem beware how they, 00)1(0$'
inconsiderate)y, and without delifterati°,7ete d Ot°
lot Initiate as a property tax. Those Wl° too°l.iior
'or the character and dignity of the finu'oroto,otl°
to look carefully lest they might co
tt tt
to
more by legislation without inquiry thou ichebro,
plan of the Government—a Governint nt too to
lie permitted to say, had repealed trot less
std oot`eif
lions of taxes in two years. They Pr'S'oclo°,,otil,,
creel at the saute rate, and for his part rie (4,3 r, (A:
in expressing a furl conviction that no ratntio.
kind could he proposed for absolutely ge,aoge
—all that c ,torl be done in the way of " o,ooeo/
s '
the nature of commutation. It Was, unt)
teetly vain to talk of taltitto, off °set"; to Deota'
showed bow the necessary reductions %reit
the estoeea
let them economise firs., and point 01 00 .00,1 t
duced taxation alterivards, but not before:e
atreoti
tyl
of the window tax he wished to call tl rA
House to a matter of some importonce, 1310.0,1 '.(i/
gooe a ollyi
to a misappr.hensioo which had e Coot I,
hail fallen from his Noble Friend th „osea
• of nrOr
Exchequer. What his Noble Frivn r, froito,o
shopkeepers claiming exemptions as
thato" he 1.10,
oow tux, according to the scale eed fionod?
should, in consequence thereof, be relt.ee.
osti to
of their house tax. Now that hocon(
aiv_liesc'evffiri,
boon to them, and be was the ore
.I.°.'foo (1 if,
lance of n's ` deo oi
to the subject from the co coots ,ioto ,eaoo
• t hiving been " ;re ber,
statement on the subject e de, '
fart 00
There was another tt pie to which
eeededrtti
attention of the Douse before he pr.oa, beet!„
jti
alluded to the great outcry ibn
• Window
specttng the operation of tle