The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 9.
TRANSPORTATION TO VAN DIEMEN'S
LAND.
(Continued from our Third Edition of last night.)
The Archbishop of DUBLIN felt called upon on the pre-
sent occasion to bear testimony to the working of the peni-
tentiary system established at the Mouutjoy depot in Ire-
land. He had been invited to go that penitentiary to hold a
confirmation, and he went because the prisoners could not
go to the parish church. It was impossible for him to speak
too highly of Mr. Blacker, the excellent minister who had
charge of the Protestant convicts. That Rev. Gentleman had
informed him, that out of 30 or 40 conviets about to sail for
the colonies several desired and were in a fit state to be con-
firmed. He had himself examined them all, and it appeared
to him that the moral system and discipline of that peni-
tentiary had solved one of the most difficult problems in pe-
nal legislation. The punishment was felt by the prisoners
as severe on account of the separate and silent system, and
it did not appear to have injured their intellects or to have
impaired their health. Silence, labour, and cleanliness were,
enforced, and opportunities of instruction were afforded to
the prisoners. A large number of the prisoners who had left
the depot were able to read and write, although when they
came there they did not know the letters of the alphabet.
The confinement appeared to him to be so complete as to be
Irm7 fide a very severs punishment as well as as reformatory
one. Indeed the hopes which Mr. Blacker entertained
df a real reform were most encouraging, but at
the same time he expressed his regret that the prisoners,
though well qualified for a societylofFaverage morality, were
about to be sent to a country in which the great mass of the..
population were contaminated, and that they would have
to undergo a more fiery ordeal than they could be expected
to guitain. With that excepti9i the Mt= Homed to be

sufficient to deter and to reform. He should have been
grateful if he could have said that h's cpiniens had changed,
or if his predictions had been falsified on this question; but
he could not say that they had. All accounts from the colony
only confirmed his most dismal apprehensions. It had been
said that the reports of the Committee were one-sided. In a
certain sense that might be the case, but if they were one-
sided it was because tne evidence was one-sided, and if the
evidence was one-sided it was because the facts had been
one-sided. Nevertheless, as far as the Mountjoy experiment
had been tried, he thought he was warranted in saying that
it had solved one of the most difficult problems connected
with the question.
Earl GREY thought he would best consult the conveni-
ence of their Lordships by confining his observations to one
or two of the principal points touched on in the speech of the
Noble Lord. It had been stated more than once that any
system of punishment confined to this country rendered the
lapse of convicts into crime an inevitable result. The Noble
Lord who had preceded him in office had' called their Lord-
ships' attention to that fact. There could be no doubt that
convicts discharged from the Penitentiary, anxious to get
work and to do well, had been dragged back to crime by
falling in with some of their old associates. The present
system was to remove the convict to the colonies after he had
undergone a certain term of imprisonment and labour at
home. The Right Rev. Prelate had alluded to the Mount-
joy Penitentiary, which was on the model of that of Pen-
tonville. There was, however, one circumstance connected
with the system at that Penitentiary, which could not be
overcome, and that was its effects on the intellect and health
of the prisoners. All the medical men agreed in opinion,
and the experience at Pentonville confirmed that opinion,
that 18 months was the maximum which human nature
could bear of that very stern and severe system. Even that
period could not be undergone without the closest attention
from the chaplain and medical officer. In many cases 12
months was as long a period as the system could be perse-
vered with. There were, however, criminals who could not
be let off with merely 18 months' imprisonment.— (Hear.)
Accordingly the present system, which he thought by far the
best system, was adopted. After a period of separate con-
finement the convicts were sent to public works at Portland,
Bermuda, and Gibraltar, and there employed under strict re-
gulations. He knew not if any of their Lordships had seen
those works. If not, he would advise them to visit them.
Although the sight of human beings undergoing punishment
was at all times painful, he was gratified on visiting Port-
land to see the busy appearance of the place, the good con-
duct of the men, the little discipline that was required, and
the immense amount of useful labour performed. The pri-
soners were employed under engineer officers, and were sti-
mulated by the expectation of shortening by good conduct
their period of probation. Indeed, so great was that stimulus
that men even unwell would rather go with the gangs than
remain at home. He had seen one man who had gone out
with his gang before he had recovered from a very serious
accident. The next step in the punishment of the convicts
was their removal to the colony on what were called tickets
of leave. The Noble Lord had aked why the original
plan had not been adhered to ? Experience was against
it. It was found that the prisoners, after having been
under a strict system of discipline in this country, were
not able to withstand temptation when they became their
own masters in the colony. They were now granted
tickets of leave, and were dispersed in the more distant
parts of the colony, where they were usefully employed
as shepherds and in other occupations. The results, as far
as they had been ascertained, were satisfactory. At first
there was no means of carrying the punishment into effect
in this country in the way it ought to be carried into effect ;
but that defect was now in a great measure remedied. The
Noble Lord said that Government had broken their promise
to the Governor of Van Diemen's Land. He thought it was
clear from the Noble Lord's own showing that no promise
had been violated. The Noble Lord said that the first com-
munication which he (Earl Grey) had made to the governor
was in September, 1846, three months after he came into
office, and that the substance of his communication was that
he could give him no information as to the penal system to
be adopted until the decision of the Government and Parlia-
ment had been pronounced.—( Hear, hear.) A few months
afterwards the views of the Government were embodied in
an eiaborate letter from Sir George Grey to him ; and he
stated that it was not the present intention of the Govern-
ment that, at the expiration of two years, transportation to
Van Diemen's Land should be resumed. (Lord Lyttelton
made an observation, which was not heard in the gallery.)
It was a mistake to suppose that the executive could do
what it pleased in a question such as this. Early in 1847 a
Noble and Learned Lord not at present in this country
moved for a Committee on the subject, and an opinion was
expressed that the Government were wrong in what they
had proposed. Concurrent with that opinion, a general ex-
pression was received from the colonies that the convicts
should not be sent as exiles, but rather under some
species of modified control. He had no hesitation in stating
that the intention was to remove them as exiles, and to send
them to as many of our colonies as possible. For many years
it had been the practice in Bermuda to give pardons to con-
victs for good behaviour, and on condition that they went to
some other country. Very recently some of these men had
worked their passage to the United States; but on getting
there they found that a law recently passed prohibited any
shipowner bringing convicts to that country, and accordingly
they were taken back to Bermuda. He agreed with the
Noble Lord that it was desirable to disperse those men, and
to rial them of their convict character as far as possible;
but two obstacles had presented themselves—Parliament
had disapproved of the plan, and neither the United
States nor our colonies would admit them.—(Hear. )
The question, therefore, was, :what was to be done?
His firm conviction was, the difficulty now experienced was
a difficulty of a temporary kind. If we improved our ex-
isting system, and well watched it, he believed they would
have the Australian colonies, now so averse to convicts, con-
testing with each other for these very convicts (Hear.)
To show that the colonies were not so averse to convicts, he
would state that, in a petition from Van Diemen's Land, it
was stated that the discontinuance of transportation to Van
Diemen's Land would be ruinous to the colony. In Botany
Bay a meeting had been held at which the squatters, or
sheep farmers, were all in favour of the resumption of
transportation to the colony. This was proof that the
colonies were not so averse to convicts as represented. In
Western Australia be had received a private letter describ-
ing the manner in which the experiment of moving convicts
to Western Australia had succeeded. The gentleman stated
that had it not been for the arrival of convicts the place in
another year would have been abandoned. So great had
been the advantage, that at Freemantle the water frontage
had been sold for a guinea a foot. This was one of the
results of sending convict labour to that portion of Australia,
And the convicts also conducted themselves in the very best
and most exemplary manner. One of the labours in which
these convicts were employed was in building a prison for
themselves.—(Load laughter.) The convicts who had ob-
tained tickets of leave had conducted themselves so well as
to merit the approbation of all. He was satisfied that such
would be the benefits of the policy that a flourishing district
would appear where all before was a desert.—(Hear,
hear.) He was bound to add that he deeply lamented
the necessity that had been imposed on her Majesty's
Government of sending so many convicts to Van
Diemen's Land. He admitted that the true policy was to
disperse the convicts as widely as possible. The measures
of her Majesty's Government had been directed to the send-
ing as few convicts as possible to Van Diemen's Land, and
to send only those whose characters were of the best descrip-
tion. He was happy to say there was a prospect of sending
within the next six months only half the usual number to
that colony. He was bound, however, to express his strong
opinion that the colony had no right to expect the discon-
tinuance of sending convicts there until it could be done
without inconvenience to the mother country. He consi-
dered that the convict system had been the making of that
and the Australian colonies. It was owing to the convict
system that the colonies possessed roads that could not be
surpassed in England. He considered that Van Diemen's
Land had experienced all the advantages of the penal sys-
tem; that colony was, therefore, not entitled to turn round
and say the system should be discontinued as soon as it
suited the colonists to say so. The colony had no right to
take such a position. While the interests of Van Diemen's
Land should not be neglected, Government at the same time
would take care that the interests of the mother country
were also protected.

The Bis'hop of SALISBURY bore testimony to the ge-
neral efficiency of the present convict system. Portland was
in his diocese; there were 1,800 convicts there, many of
whom had been convicted of grave offences—and it was im-
possible to see this large number engaged in works of utility
without indulging in hopes of their ultimate reformation.
He, however, should be deceiving their Lordships if he said
he entertained any sanguine hopes of the reformation of cri-
minals of mature years. He could well believe that the in-
stitution at Portland might effect good, but he doubted in
cases where the punishment had not been sufficient in the
first establishment, whether the system at Portland was
sufficiently penal to reform offenders. If the present system
could be effectually carried out it would prove as efficacious
as any other; but then to put the system thoroughly into
practice was attended with immense difficulty.
The Bishop of OXFORD said that much that the Noble
Lord had said that night had given him pain. The paramount
evil of transportation was, that it attempted to plant new na-
tions with the basest of mankind. He regretted the Noble
Earl (Earl Grey) had lent the weight of his name to sanction
this—the master-evil of the present system of convict trans-
plantation. Moral pollution was almost a necessary conse-
quence of the presence of convicts in new colonies. Crimi-
nals should not be placed in circumstances under which, if
they proved useful servants, almost any amount of irregu-
larity and misconduct was tolerated. To create a penal

colony was a great sin in a civilized and enlightened country.
The colonies had a right to object to the present system.
To plant colonies of criminal men was the seed of evil
in the earth, and what no Christian country
Ds was justified
doing.
Lord MONTEAGLE was prepared to say that upon
reason and from experience, and looking at the thing as a
whole, the present system of diffusing convicts throughout
the world, if properly conducted, was benefiting both the
home country and our colonies. There was an overloaded
labour market at home. The removing these criminals re-
lieved the honest and industrious at home. There was a
deficiency of labour in the colonies, and supplying that want
was a benefit to the colonies. It was said that if convicts
were sent abroad, there was a chance of their meeting their
old associates, but if they were kept at home there was a
certainty .of meeting them. Abroad there- were nu-
merous instances of the reformation and subsequent pros-
perity of convicts. The principle of sending convicts abroad
was a recognised evil, but it was an inevitable evil. It was
impossible to carry on the administration of criminal justice
without the power of expatriation in some form or other.
Much of the evil that had arisen on this subject had been
caused by the intermeddling of Parliament. He wished
to know whether the hulk system was about to be re-
newed ?
The Duke of ARGYLE said that the fact, if fact it were
that the system was inevitable, was a very inconclusive.argu-,
argu-
ment. It was upon a balance of the evilshaendeinnlcot
inconveniences
that that this question must be adjusted. T
selves were the best judges of their material and moral
inetme--
rests, and they had unanimously repudiated this system.
After a few words from Lord WODEHOUSE,
Earl GREY said, in answer to a question from the Noble
Lord (Monteagle), that the system of the hulks had never
been discontinued, although certainly it was very desirable
to get rid of the system. A prison was now building in
Bermuda, and arrangements were being made in this country
to get rid of the convicts. The system of associated labour
would then be performed in those instead of in the hulks.
Until
those prisons were prepared it was necessary that con-
victs should go to the hulks. It was still necessary to a cer-
tain extent to use the hulks, but as soon as the hulks were
prepared they would pass that part of their punishment on
shore. The question was one of comparison—the compara-
tive amount of moral evil by one system or the other.
The discussion then terminated, and their Lordships
adjourned.

Mr. HUME presented a p tiller, from Arbroath,
11l luVuUr ,ht;
he following
Mr. URQUHART then rose to move t
pope ;„
amendment:—" 1. That the recent act of the
s
dividing England into dioceses, and appoint
thereto, was encouraged by the conduct and ding
ecblicatioe
of her Majesty's Government. 2. That the pu
of
by Lord John Russell of his letter to the Bishop
declarations
Dur ham vshich contained expressions calculated
Majesty -CO
wound the religious feelings of many of her
legislativee
remedies which have been disappointed by _
,Teose.
subjects, produced large expectations of
vro vo 11
contained in the measure now submitted to the nu
of
fhteh
eHo n.
the firs*
House
and he should, therefore, confine himself at present
bsraiinag in in that
nh e
those was
two preeplruodpeodsi tbiytontt
°sheet for
produced all the irritation which existed on Ibis ;
one. The conduct of the Government, he contended'
The resolution he proposed was confined siml to a dod te
not intended tion of the acts of the Government. It was
he would be
be a vote of censure upon the Government, for
;,_,,,,„et
very sorry to see them at the present moment exp_eyeu,';g
their places. The Government of the Noble Lord ha u
titles of
since conceded to the Roman Catholic prelates those titles
which it was intended to deprive them by the Pr the ees-
The subject was divided into two points—the one
‘s
of
the
tededesdn,wheest.
tion of titles, which it was said affected the rig.let:' The
Crown; the second affected the rights of the sublae'ffeetee
Noble Lord, in dealing with the first, did that which, uestioe
the consciences of Roman Catholics ; the second, in
_clew the
of trusts, dealt with by the Attorney-General and
Master f the Rolls —affected the rights of subject tee
might be dealt with by the law of the land. How l;hieb
Noble Lord deal with these matters? By a messur_eet_ end
was not honestly brought forward by the Goverietnee„'ment
which, if adopted, it was not intended by the GOrfroilid
honestly to carry out.—(Cheers.) But the Noble
.eteelosl
that there had been a violation of the law of
Thelete
The law of nations could not affect the question. t With
of nations referred to a violation of treaty rights, or a
Von of the rights of nations. Now, they had no tee.:ooW
the Pope, and there was no violation on his part oteusdes
by
rights—he had not imprisoned their subjects, nor iierehrd sg-
arms any of their territories. And yet the Noble too,
gravated the whole of these evils by his letter, and teieteted
by telling them that the law of nations had been erie Lord
with impunity.—(Hear, hear.) And how did the Nou fly
seek to prove that the law of nations had been violated 4
referring to the practice of nations, as if the practice ("gest,
tions was the same thing as the law of nations. tr-see
eee
hear.) And in adopting this line of argument, it we s
ease
for
le:°'!."
the amount of ignorance exhibited by the Noble
.„,teae of
the documents supplied from the Foreign-office, wee
supporting him, contradicted his assertions.—(Aver' Noble
fact, the whole of the evidence was against th!,.. eta
Lord, by which he endeavoured to show that tweiese)
been a violation of the law of nations.—(Hear, Yee
The Noble Lord had encouraged, by his conduct, t ties
to do that which he now denounced as a violation; this
law of nations. He said that whoever entertain 1, het
opinion could not be content with voting against the D-o`j; the
he must express his censure of that conduct of ech‘ese)
Government had been guilty by its tergiversation.-4w pre'
By affirming the resolutions he (Mr. Urquhart) tergiversation.-pop
posed, they would get rid of the measure before thuoheage
without throwing the country into convulsion by ,At the
of Government. The Hon. Member then observedduostii
conduct of Lord J. Russell was such as rendered bil°3l,i•
rate
liable to a vote of censure by this House, for after
an inflammatory letter the Bishop of Durham, which
50 to
published far and wide through the press, and gave rat of
the expectation of extensive legislation upon the slw
the Papal aggression, the Noble Lord came down to
t eat
went and declared that if he had brought in no Inas .„01
all he would not have infringed upon the hopes and Pr°7tee
he had held out in that letter. Again,
Hon. GentleT on the measure to,
e
Government had been termed by some
nullity, whilst others regarded it as an act of pefaec
sod s
n
In his (Mr. Urquhart's) opinion, it was both a nullity foes
persecution, and that there was but one mode of eseaP°A set
the difficulty, and that was to sweep away all they had '
done.
Mr. SADLEIR seconded the resolutions.
Sir G. GREY said that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr' tee
quhart) had an opportunitypf raising his opposition en the
second reading; tut such a course of action did not suit .es
es
Hon. Gentleman, because he saw that his motion evotnte,
then of no avail, as lie could not effect his object by abet
gether getting rid of this Bill, and thus totally undoing " tee
had been before done by that House. When such a coley
appeared to him to be a failure, he then turned his attest;,
to the plan of proposing a vote. of censure on the Go °be
ment, which he felt assured would be of no 'avail, becaut f
did not think that the House would be ao' far stultify 114,0
as to rescind the vote -been recorded. The attack of J•
Hon. Gentleman on the First Lord of the Treasury (Lot be
Russell) would prove of no consequence, because bylo.
anxiety for a vote of censureron the Government, he felt be
sured that the point of his attack was directed against
Noble Friend (Lord Palmerton), rather than against eet
other member of the Government ; and he felt assured 170
the House coincided with-him in that opinion. the th
et,
grounds he cautioned the House against following his Plel?„e
i;
and to avoid being subject to the character of stultify;
themselves by rescinding their former vote in
le
your of the second reading. In a word, be
lieved that the Honourable Gentleman wished the
the Pope of Rome should have all authority to die7'eee
e,
this country, as it suited his purpose, without the sanction
of Parliament or the country.—(Hear, hear.) He short
next refer to Ireland, and in doing so he considered the
the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church in that count
had a just right and claim to their ecclesiastical titles, Par'
ticularly when the use of those titles was not in any vrB:ce,
violation of the law; and he should add that those tie
_t
were in existence, not only before the present Govern/Ile!,
came into power, but even before the Emancipation Act see,
passed, before the Maynooth grant was sanctioned, and 1 PI,
fore the Reform Act was thought of. He did not see a 111,
grounds for the Hon. Gentleman's amendment, because be
considered that it was the constitutional right of this couple?
to prevent, by every possible means, the interference o
foreign potentate. fie, therefore, asked the House to, g°
into Committee at once, and not to stultify themselves by
scinding their former vote on that oceasion.—(llear.)
Mr. FRESHFIELD considered that the lion. Gentleto a 0 d
amendment was altogether useless, and that it would. be
better they had long since gone into Committee, as es ueh
good would be effected by such a course, rather than titan
the time of the House in a useless discussion.
Lord J. MANNERS considered that the House st ioleti
look to the merit of the resolution, for he felt assured t; list it
was perfectly just, and as evident as that two and two magi
four, for he well knew that the Noble Lord (Lord J. Re ranch)
was always willing to promote the perdition of the Cl iuree
of England, while at the same time he was encouraging t`je
growth of Popery ; and he should, moreover;say that
ieet
puny and insignificant measure would be of no avail ag a, ha
the machinations of the Church of Rome, for it won lo -a
wholly inoperative, and would not be at all acted upon, ofet,
though it became the law of the land. He considered t`h-e
the Bill of the Noble Lord would perfectly justify the le louse
to vote in favour of the amendment of the Hon. Membe r t
Stafford (Mr. Urquhart). It might be borne in mind le febe'd
House that a few days before the Easter recess he bad a ant*
the Noble Lord if he would, retract or modify the lette 'e
„ea
Earl Grey, by which it was shown that the Pope of 1
had a certain authority over the colonies; but he wai
ssvered that no modification would be made. What cot leii;
sion, then, could the House and the country legitirm iteee
come to from this mode of action adopted on the part of fefe
Government? He knew but of two—either that the
persecuting Dr. Wiseman, or that they are betraying :
abandoning the rights of the Crown and those a°
jeet to her Majesty's rule at the antipodes.—GovernsT'
.
Let him ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern gent'
;
or, rather, let him remind him, how lie had acted as
garded the English episcopate. When he came into "o,e''mt,";
h-a
he admitted that the number of bishops connected will 1,4`3a
English Church was miserably defective, and even ape' ees„.
the number of additional ones he was to create. If; Wee"'
that speech had been followed up, as it ought to have he,en;
there could be no doubt that many of the great t °l-0,
throughout the country would have been formed into sus'
and placed under the superintendence of prelates o '''',.
Church of England, and that they would not have I let;
pool, Nottingham, and Birmingham placed, as they Were
now, under prelates appointed by the Pope.—(Loud chap ere')
Then, as to another act of unfairness on the part of
Noble Lord, towards the English Church. Before th a ae;
gression took place, negotiations were pending bet Wee
the Government of the Noble Lord and the Wesleyan bed,'
nthegeotit(i)horlies
L/107..ti
in respect of the educational system of the latter, I Ale°
terminated in Government conceding to them their rear
samernm e ntti time
ef
pending between
theAt theeov-
and the English Roman Catholics on much the same sub
ject, and these also had been conceded, and that
.„"5:
quent to the aggression. Then, with respect to the : elle;
lish Episcopal Church, negotiations had also been pen °,113,;
hut although that body had in that llouse submitted thou
claims in such a manner that no Member of it could den:, r
justice and the reasonableness of it, yet those claims had
with fineddetermned and terrapposition by the Governme at 0,
the Noble L, and still denied them.-(Cris e°,`
e Hear, hear.") As to the motion itself, be tho ugw,
the Honourable Gentleman who proposed it had apr efeeele
right to assume that the Pope would meet with but iit",t" discouragement, if he did not actually meet with sup es
from the Noble Lord and, his Government in any agi if
sion he might make on this country; for he believed tl 15'
the people of England and the Sovereign of England had
not felt aggrieved, and expressed their opinions of the cm wee'
pursued by the Pope in a Manner not to be mistaken, 0,5
would have heard but little righteous indignation exp.' gime"
on the part, of the Government.—(Heart hear.) :As the
measure proposed by the Noble Lord to meet that a.ggres goo,
he did not intend to go into detail respecting it, for the
House could not have forgotten what had taken place, 0, ! the
course of its progress through the House, from the first n fight
it was introduced. What they had to consider was sir aPil
this, was the motion of the Hon. Member for Stafford true!
or was it not ? (Hear, hear.) If it was true, vote for i t; if
it was not, reject it. He believed it to assert a truth, so
lie would vote for it—(Hear, hear)—because he thought it of
importance that they should place on the journals of the
House a condemnation of such a course of conduct as the
Government of the Noble Lord had pursued, in order that
they might hold up their conduct as a beacon to warn of hers
who might follow them from following a similar course.
No lion. Member seeming inclined to address the Hor sea
long pause took place, when strangers were ordered to es
draw, in order that the House might divide on the mot jou,
upon which—
Mr. SADLEIR rose to support the motion. The R fight
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Departs tent
seemed to take it for granted that any one who mi fight
support the motion did so as a censure upon the Go-
vernment, for their conduct towards the Roman Ca-
tholics. Now he for one did not support the mo,
lion
on any such grounds. lie had always admitted andsupported the sound policy of the Noble Lord ,
making the concessions to the Roman Catholics lee
had on several occasions done, and concurred iu the decle
tions he had frequently made respecting the great value Pf s
Roman Catholic hierarchy in Ireland, for it was impossible for
any Roman Catholic not to feel a desire to see the Churcl
this country leaving the advantage of such a governmc
It was possible that they might have a bad disposed It nap
placed in the Papal chair, and, he asked, could they has ,e
greater security against any act of aggression he might at take
upon this country, than the establishment of a hierare thy"
who could reject the bulls if they considered them wro)
As to vicars-apostolic, they were the mere nominees of the
Pope. The second order of clergy were fully at their me WY
—there was no appeal from them, and that was the rem sou
why they wanted a hierarchy and a regular parochial clef rgY
establishment. Besides the establishment of vicars-apos t Ole
was merely a temporary
arrangement, for when the body
Roman Catholics became numerous and prosperous in a nY
country or district, it was always the rule to estabh
amongst them a regular hierarchy. A Papal bull con du
have no effect in this country until it was sanctioned by si eel,'
hierarchy, who might reject it if they saw fit, and that had
been done already by the Roman Catholic hierarch:, r of
Ireland. They were told this motion would delay the ier
gress of the Bill, but that objection would have but lit tie
weight with him, for he viewed the measure both in t be
state it was introduced and the meagre form to which it le ad
been reduced, as an effort to revive that penal and pens e-
cuting legislation which was so rife in the reign of Ape e.
—(liear, hear.) Ho knew Goyarameat would say tlo .at

Met nl
Arad t
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gentle.

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