The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON,

Member for Abingdon were towers of strength and bulwarks
of thou Prwestattt Church in this country ?—qllear, hear,
and Oh, oh.) These wore the words use by th,3 Gun. and
Learned Member fur Abingdon. He sail that his ariietA=
' mints would not only render the Bill complete, but, in a
ante: t of great abiity, he stated that at a peri d of their
hi tory ‘vhere they', took was of the greatest im-
portance, and where every treachery motion to
surpise, it becao,e of the first importance to mane '..ten
their towers, and to set up bulwarks for strengthening the
Church against the a! tacks of assailants; end the Honour-
atno aid oeno,m,•,r, ~,meluded by telling the House
that he proposed to rubstimute his 11-Ida:int:2 for the rubbish of
the Government Bill. Now it never was his (the S dkltur.
General's) view of the Bill that the Churn of England
should rely upon it fir support. He had discovered that
wh le they were looking Merely at this wretched rescript di-
yiding.the kingdom of England into Popish dioceses, that
the Pepe had created a Bishop of Rose and a Bishop of Gal-
w y. N w. if they declared only that one rescript was ille-
gal, the judges in Ireland would be apt to think that the
others were not illegal. Now the lion. and Learned Gen-
tleman knew very well that all these briefs were illegal.—
( Divide. ):The case :to at thuslThe merit of his Hon. Friend
consisted io this, that whereas it was now a misdemeanour
to do tho,e acts, he would make it punishable instead of by
fine and imprisonment by a line of 100/. That was the ut.
most extent of his merit. Now why had he said all this?
(Cheers and laughter.) If they were not setting up any
new bulwark and increasing their securities, it seemed to
him that they were in effectdcstroying the Bill, the of
of which was a solemn declaration of independence of Papal
authority. Was it worth while to adopt these partial
amendments, which did not in any way affect the main
principle?
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ••• •.• .•• ldb
Agairot it ... 109
Majority against the Government
Lord JO iIN 147SSELL here intimated that he would not
divide on the nest amendment, but would take the sense of
the House on the third reading.
The amendments were then agreed to.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, he understood tt was not the inten-
tion of her Majesty's Government to offer any opposition to
the amendment of the Hon. Member for Abingdon, and,
under these circumstances he wished to call the attention of

the House to the preamble, which was of unusual length,
and to the fact that the two clauses had been altered in such
a manner as to materially al_er the character of the Bill.
The Bill haviT g been so materially change l, and her Ma-
jesty's Government still adhering to the measure, he sug-
gested that it should be printed with the amendments. tor
the consideration of Hon. Members before the third reading.
Lord J. RUSSELL raid that he had no objection to the
Bill being reprinted in the form in which it now stood, and
he proposed to take the third reading on Friday next.
Sir J. GRAHAM hat no objection to Friday next, but he
thought there should be time given to send the Bill to Ire-
land in its altered form.—(Hear, bear.)
The third reading was then agreed to.
OATHS OF ABJURATION (JEWS) BILL.
The third reading of this Bill was postponed till Thursday
next.

The Supply Report was then brought up and agreed to.
COURT OF CHANCERY ADJOURNED DEBATE, ON
MOTION FUR ADDRESS (27TH MAY).
On the order of the day being read for resuming this
debate,
The SOLI7ITOR-GENERAL regretted he was not pre-
sent when the Hon. and Learned Member for Newark brought
torward the subject. The motion, he thought, pointed to two
distinct matters—one, that the commission en which he had
the honour to serve should be augmented by two Members
not belonging to the profession; and the other, that the
commission should be directed to attend to the proceedings
in the Masters' offices, with a view to make an immediate
report on the subject. He shoat' shortly state why he con-
ceived the motion would frustrate the object which his Hon.
and Learned Friend had in view. No doubt the object of
his Hon. and Learned Friend was speedily and effectively to
make a reform in the Court of Chancery. The present com-
mission con•i,ted of seven commissioners, who were mem-
bers of th bar, but since its appointment two of the comm s-
sio ers—the Master of the Rolls and Vice-Chancellor Turner

—had been appointed to the bench. With regard to the
proposal of adding two additional members to the commis-
sion, he thought all 'alio had experience in these matters
would admit that seven members were quite enough for
the speedy and effectual carrying out of its object. He
believed there was not a single member on the commis-
sion who was not desirous of Chancery reform—the Master
of the Rolls, for instance, and Vice Chancellor Turner. He
did not see what could be gained by making the commission
nine in number, specially to include persons not members of
the legal profession. The last two meetings of the com-
mission were occupied with hearing evidence on the subject
of the Masters' offices in Chancery; and they were now
busily engaged with the subject. But the vast question at
issue was not to be settled in an off-hand manner, and he
(the Solicitor-General) could not therefore promise a report
this season.

Mr. ELLICE said there had been various inquiries made
into the abuses of the Court of Chancery by the legal pro-
fession, but as yet the unlearned public had derived no ad-
vantage from them. Since 1839, when two new Vice-
Chancellors were appointed, nothing had been done to
remedy the grievances of the over-crowded state of business
in the Masters' offices. He appealed particularly to the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and said it was a
lamentable fact that this most enormous of all abuses had
been forgotten in the reforms that had been achieved by the
party of which he was at the head. He (Mr. Ellice) did not
attach any blame to the Masters in Chancery, nor even to
the solicitors; but to the system of abom;nation which pre-
chided relief from any quarter except the Legislature. In
this great commercial country no contested partnership ac-
count ever went into the Masters' offices and came out
settled with a report. It was a sad fact. Was it not, he
asked, a miserable thing that in a country like England
there should be no court for partnership eases but this court?
He was given t t understand that no number of judges would
be of avail unless there was a reform in the office of the Tax- '
ing Master in Chancery. When Lord Grey came into power
he ( Mr. Ellice) was one of a commission to inquire into the
Court of Exchequer, and they found the old tally-stick sys•
tem prevail there. They reformed that court, however, and
now it was one of the most effective in the country. The
same might be done with the Masters' offices, but if it was
left solely to lawyers it would never be reformed. A mer-
chant or two, an accountant or two, and perhaps a barrister
and a solicitor, w. uld make the be,t possible commission. A
deep knowledge of law was not needful to that end. Almost
every department had been reformed, but no daylight had
ever been permitted to enter that den of Cacus—the Masters'
offices in Chancery. He hoped, therefore, his Noble Friend
would riot let the mat es sleep, but would bestir
himself, as the head of the Government, to get rid of
this scandal, which was a disgrace to the country.
The MASTER of the ROLLS said he had not been idle,
but had been doing what he could to facilitate the adminis-
tration of justice in all its departments. Ile had admitted
the evils of Chancery to be not less strong than his Right
lion. Friend had stated. One of the greatest abuses in
Chancery was certainly in taking accounts; but that could
not be remedied by an accountant or a barrister. The evil
was this - that if partners went into a contest as to the ba-
lance in their boo :s, every item was obliged to be proved by
voucher, though they might amount to thousands, and
extend over a period of many years. This was the reason
why a report never came out of the Master's offices in a part-
nership accoust. He had proposed a clause in the Irish
Chancery Bill, naking the books prime facic true, unless
they were proved to be the contrary. The constant com-
plaint in his early acquain'ance with Chancery was the
arrear of business in original causes. This had been
remedied; and though there was now a great ar-
rear in appeals, there was little or none in ori-
ginal business. Attention had been called to a case where
a bill had been filed in Chancery in 1815, and the CAS ' was
heard in 1851 ; but the cause of that arose from the fact that
the Court of Chancery bad acted as a trustee in the case,
and that the question had been raised in connexion with
the trust only in 1849, when the lady, the original party,
died, though the bill had been tiled so early. The public
should not, therefore, be misled by dates. Lie believed
that one of the most useful reforms that could be
adopted was to make the Court of Chancery general trustee,
aed to enable it to decide without delay disputed cases. He
begged the House to believe that nothing was further from
his wishes than to defend the real abuses of the Court of
Chancery. On the contrary, he was most desirous to see
them removed ; and he believed all his Learned Friends who
were joined with him on that Commission were equally
anxious with him on the subject. When they had met in
that Commission they had divided themselves into sub-Com-
mittees of two; and a large number of most valuable sugges-
tions, which they were then considering, had been contri-
buted. It was not possible for them to take all these subjects
together, for the question was a very large one. The Com-
missioners, however, were desirous of getting as much infer-
mation as they could upon one branch, and then to make
their report upon that before they went to another. With
respect to the taking of evidence, they bad drawn up
a great number of questions which they had sent to masters,
solicitors, officers, and even judges, and they had received a
great number of valuable suggestions, upon which they
were on the eve of making a report. They had also begun
to examine into the subject of the Masters' offices. The
Honourable Member for Newark proposed that two new
Members should be added to the Commission, and the
names of the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir
J. Graham) and the lion. Member for Oxford had been
suggested for ; hat purpose. He fully admitted that more
valuable assistance could not be obtained than that which
these two lion. Gentlemen could afford. But there was a
great difficulty always in too numerous a Commission. Then
it might be a long time before lay members, however intel-
ligent, could be made acquainted with the principles and sys-
tem of taking evidence. Another difficulty arose in the at-
tendance of members. They had appointed Tuesdays, Thurs-
days, and aaturdays, from four to six o'clock, to go through
the business of the Commission. Would it be possible for
lay members to attend on those days and at those hours,
consistently with their other public business? If they
could, nothing would give him greater pleasure ta.an that
they should have those Hon. Members; but in the present
state of the Commission, he had his doubts whether the in-
troduction of other persons would be of so much benefit as
his Hon. and Learned Friend thought. Amongst the evils
stated to exist were, that if a Bill were to be taxed one had to
wait three or four months, and if an order were required it
would be three or four weeks before it could be got out of
the Master's office. There was no doubt but that there
were evils; but it was said they might be remedied by the
appointment of two new taxing officers and additional
masters. No doubt such was wanting; but if a proposition
to that effect were made in the House, it would be com-
plained of that new offices were being created. He agreed,
with the Hon. Member for Coventry that it was of the ut-
most importance to take up that subject seriously and
earnestly, and such was the intention of the Government and
the Connnission which had been appointed. He was sure
the House would insist on a full inquiry into the subject;
but the best course which it could take would be to wait
until that Commission should have made its report, and not
to seek to add to it for the present any new members. Be-
fore next session he trusted 'they would have made such a
report as would tend in a great degree to point out the re-
medy for many of the most obvious existing abuses and
evils in the administration of the affairs of the Court of
Chancery.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER thought, after the speech they had
just heard from the Righ Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
had addres,ed the House, there could be no more cogent
reasons advanced for the proceeding recommended by his
Hon. and Learned Friend near him. As to the delays of the
Court of Chancery, there could be no doubt oe the mind of
any one. He had been dragged into that court against his
will on one occasion, and had been kept there six years with-
out any result. After ever, effort to obtain a hearing at the
end of that period, he had obtained one which lasted ten mi-
nutes, and he had been told by the Master of the Rolls that
he had no business in that court. It was subsequently nine
years before he succeeded in getting the suit terminated.
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Coventry, that unless
they got rid of the whole system from the beginning, there
was no use in eppointing new judges, new masters, or new
officers, and that they should strike at the root of the evil,
if they intended to accomplish any real practical good.
Mr. BETHELL concurred very sincerely in pa. t of the
appeal made by the lion. Member for Coventry; and.he
hoped the Noble Lord at the Ilead of the Government,
whose name RAs associated with ao many useful reforms,

'

SAT URDA

Would not allow the present session to pass without doing
something which would cause it to be handed down also in
connexion with the reform of our judicial proceedings.
Oletraeting the vast amount of business which the five
judgei el the Court of Chancery had to do with
what the fifteen le* judges were called upon to ge
through, it would seem that ?IT the former case it was
impossible for human industry to accomplish it.
Yet they expected these five judges to do all that. They
hid utfly thenaselv,s to • Warne for a great many of the evils
complained of. They had refused to appoint additional
masters, although the officers of these functionaries were
crowded day after day, and hotfe after hour, with suitors
who were unable to obtain justice- lie Would call upon
them, there.fore. to add to the • power of that court. The
fact of having Increased the number of judges created addi-
tional labour for the masters, The difficulty in the Masters'
offices arose from the fact that there was a centralised place
of business to take accounts, and these were furnished through
the medium of agents. He would brietic illustrate that
difficulty by en example. Suppose in Birmingham; or any
other great commercial town of this country, a dispute arose
about accounts in a large partnership concern. It was at
once brought into the Court of Chancery, instead of being
-referred, as it ought, to some local parties of experience and
judgment. Of course agents were to be employed here, and
all the business was to be transacted through agents at every
step in thirproceeding. The Master to whom the case was
referred had no power. to compel the attend-owe of wit-
nesees, and at each additional movement the agents bad to
send to the country for evidence or instructions. Thus were
prweeings lengthened out to a most immoderate exteet.
Again, he would ask them to contrast the duties per-
formed by the courts of common law with those of the
Court of Chancery, and see how much assistance was neces-
sary to make the courts of equity equal to the business which
comes before them. If the lion. Member for Newark, in-
stead of turning out the Commission for a little sport in that
House that night, were to go before the Commissioners and
answer their questions, he would do much more to promote
the object he had in view, than by adopting the course
he had pursued. If the addition of any lay members to the,
Commission at the present time were at all desirable, no
doubt no two Hon. Members could b a greater acquisition

then the two whose names had that night been meutionel.
Mr. HENLEY was more hopeful of the results of the
Commission before he had heard the spee,:lies delivered that
night by three 'Hon. and Learned Gentlemen, who we'e
members of the Commission. He had not heard the slightest
symptom that they thought anything like a true remedy for
the abuses complained of was wanted. What was needed
was, not a tinkering up of the system, but a sweeping away
of its abuses; and he hoped the Government would direct

their serious attention to it.
Mr. J. EVANS could hardly believe, when he heard the
Master of the Rolls speak to-night, that it was the same
person who,.as Solicitor-General, had introduced the reform
of the courts of law in Ireland. The Hon. and Learned
Member for Aylesbury had cautioned them against proceed-
ing upon extravagant clamour and unfounded complaint.
What did he consider unfounded complaint? Were the
abuses of the Masters' offices matter of unfounded com-
plaint? There was a greatly mischievous system, and yet
what was proposed to remedy it? Unless they corrected it,
it was useless to increase the number of their judges. Let
them see what was going on in the courts or law. In all his
long experience of Westminster Hall, he had never known
the courts there so devoid of business; the public found
them too expensive, and the business was in consequence
transferred to the county courts. But from what he had
heard that night he expected little from this commission,
and he trusted the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) would at-
tend to the suggestions of the Right Hon. Member for Co-
ventry, and superintend in his own person the accomplish-
ment of these great reforms which were needed. He wished,
too, the Right Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham)
would act on the commission. The whole system should be
reformed in a comprehensive manner, and not bit by bit.
Sir J. GRAHAM, with reference to the allusion ma e by
the Hon, Gentleman who last spoke as to his services, begged
to say he was weary of inquiry. They had on this subject
inquired much and done little. For two sessions he had
devoted a large portion of his time, together with the
Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, to the subject of Chancery
reform, and the commission was, in addition to themselves,
composed of some of the most distinguished lawyers in the
House, as the Master of the Rolls, Sir lieorge Turner,
the Honourable Member for Midhurst, and the Solicitor-
General. They were perfectly unanimous in their
report; they had exhausted the inquiry upon some
very important subjects—namely, the payment by fees of
the greater portion of the officers attached to the Court of
Chancery. They went into west detail, and presented two
reports, which, with the evidence and interrogatories, were
before the House. These reports, too, contained detailed
recommendations. Now, he had heard the speech of the
Master of the Rolls with pleasure, indicating as it did an
adherence to his desire to reform those courts; but he must
also say that his final judgment smacked too much of his
court ; for he said as to the Bill that they must wait. "Wait"
was the ominous word. With the unanimous agreement that
he had mentioned in their report, and with the facts before
the House now two sessions, yet nothing had been done.—
(Hear, hear.) He could not conceive a more fatal omen with
respect to this Bill. This might appear only of minor impor-
tance; but still the Lord Chancellor was appointed on the
distinct understanding that he should be subject to any regu-
lation Parliament might impose with respect to his staff of
officers. They had reported against his having seven secre-
taries and a secretary in bankruptcy, yet these were still re-
tained ; they had repotted against the Lord Chancellor's two
gentlemen-at-arms, who were paid by fees to the amount of
7501. a year each ; also against chaffwax and tape, yet these
were all retained. He mentioned those things to show how
fruitless were investigations and reports if there was not a
spirit to act and improve in conformity with them. There
was a passive, resistance in the Court of Chancery, which
seemed somehow to overcome all attempts at reform. The
Noble Lord at the head of the Administration could not reap
greater favour by any act of energy t tan by giving effect,
before the close of the session, to the recommendations which.
they had proposed in these reports. Why should they not
abolish the hour-warrants in the Masters' offices in this
country, as Sir E. Sugden had done in Ireland when he held
the office of Lord Chancellor there?

The AT FORN EY•GENERAL—They are abolished.
Sir J. GRAHAM. was not satisfied with the attendance
given by the Masters in their offices; they came there later
than the Judges and left earlier. He was sure that if the
Government would set about it in earnest they would, in a
very short time, wi h the entire approbation of both Houses
of Parliament, with immense satisfaction to the public., and
to their own infinite credit, easily make great, extensive, and
most satisfactory reforms in the administration of justice in
this country; and it was very painful to him to see how good
au opportunity of effecting there reforms was at present being
neglects f. Public opinion was ripe for the change; and the
profession itself, if it understood its own interests, ought to
be anxious to see the change carried into effect. There was
nothing like a beginning in such matters; and some practi-
cal proof of their determination to do something was much
wanted. _ .

Lord J. RUSSELL said he was ready to admit that there
were many reforms to be made in the Court of Chancery ;
but at the same time he should say that there was no great
encouragement to make those reforms when one found that
the complaints remained the same after the reforms had
been Wee ed. Now the complaint of the length of time
occupied in Chancery suits had been in a great degree
remeiied by the appointment of additional judges. There
had during the last six years been more than one occasion
on which it appeared that there had been no further appeals
to be heard in the court. It was true that there were con-
siderable arrears at the present moment; but it was also
true that the court was now in a far better condition than
that in which it had been placed fifteen or twenty years age.
His Right Hon. Friend the Member for Ripon had ex-
pressed his surprise that the hour-warrants should be allowed
to go on at the present day. But the fact was, that
more than a year ago orders had been issued, under the
directions of the late Lord Cottenbam and of the late
Lord Langdale, by which a great change had been
effected in the system of hour-warrants. He be-
lieved that the hour-warrants' had been replaced by a
much less obj-ctionable mode of proceeding. He should, i
however, observe that with respect to such a very compli-
cated system of property as that which prevailed in his
country, it might not be easy to conform to the doctrine that
they ought not to inquire but to act. The difficulty was, ,
tow to act in the right direction. He believed there never
was a country in which there had prevailed such a compli-
cated system of property, and such complex relations con-
nected with laud, and with titles to every description of pro-
perty in the most distant parts of the world, as that which
prevailed in these kingdoms. If he were asked why he did
nut attempt at once to resolve all the difficulties of tne ques-
tion, he should ask in his return how it would be possible to
explain the whole Newtonian theory in a few words. There I
was frequently great difficulty in dealing with the ace rants
which were brought before the Cain of Chancery. The
accounts in the War-office and in the Navy-office were kept
upon a uuiform and intelligible system; and if Parliament
bad provided thirty years ago that the accounts of merchants
should be kept iu a similar manner the duties of the Court
of Chancery would have been considerably lessened. But if
a number of partners in a mercantile establishment had '
kept their accounts for a reriod of thirty years in a manner
so confused that they were at length obliged to come befoie
the Court of Chancery to decide on their lights, that Court I
would necessarily have a most troublesome and onerous i
task to perform. At the same time he should confess that
it seemed to him there was no part of the business of the
Court of Chancery which so obviously required amendment
as the mode of dealing with complicated accounts;
in his opinion such questions ought to be de-
cided
on the principles which usually regulated the dealings '
of mercantile men, and the duty to be entrusted to the Lord
Chancellor and to the Masters in such matters ought to be
merely to decide upon points of law and upon titles. With
respect to the question of fees he had to state that he be-
lieved the Lord Chancellor was fully sensible of the necessity
of effecting a change in that respect; and the fact was, that
he had already abolished fees to the amount of 20,0001. a
year. He had to observe, in respect to the °tree of chaff-
wax, that that office had, he believed, been already abolished.
It was true that some reductions might be made in the
seven secretaries of the Lord Chancellor; but it should be
remembered that the Lord Chancellor was at the head of a
great department, and that he should naturally have some
assistants to aid him in carrying on the business of
that department. With regard to the proposal that gentle-
men not members of the legal profession should be placed on
the commission, he had to state, that he had no objection to
adopt that proposal; but he should add, that he believed it
would be impossible for thoss gentlemen to get an insight
into the technical details of the profession without devoting
very considerable attention to the subject. Let the commis-
sion make its report, and if next year the should be able
to effect any important reforms through the labours of that
' commission, he believed they would have reason to congra-
tulate themselves on the fact that they had been able to deal
effectually with a matter which two centuries ago had baffled
the genius and the sturdy will of Oliver Cromwell.
After a few words from Mr. J. STUART, the motion was
agreed to.
The report on the Court of Chancery and Judicial Com-
mittee Annuity) Bill was agreed to.
Mr. FRE WEN moved the secondleading of the Seques-
tration of Benefices Bill.
Sir G. GREY said he had heard no reason for the adoption
of that measure, and he should, therefore, move that it be
read a second time that day six months.
Mr. FRE WEN said that the hill was framed for the
removal of what he thought was an admitted evil. He felt
that he had reason to complain of the conduct of the Right
Hon. Baronet in the matter, and he wished to give notice
that he would for the rernafiver of the session oppose any
measure brought forward by the Government atter 'twelve
o'clock at night.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none took
place, the Bill (as we understood) having been rejected
without u division.
Tne other business was then disposed of, and the House
adjourned at Ten minutes to One o'clock.

REPRESENTATION OF AYRSHIRE.—Mr. Alexander
Oswald, the sitting Member for Ayrshire has addressed a
letter to the electors of that county, stating that he does not
intend to offer himself as a candidate at the next general
election. Rderring to his past Parliamentary conduct, he
status that he sees nothing to regret in his `vote in support of
free trade, nor in the opposition which he gives to the Eccle-
siastical Titles Bill.—Edinburgh Witness.