The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-13 00:00:00

on the number of souls in their respective dioceses ; but
must in a great measure depend on the space
over which their visitations and other duties have to
be performed. It had been contended that 22 Bishops
were more than adequate to these duties. Now,
Sir, I admit that twenty-two is a number more
than necessary.—(Loud cheers.) It is then for us
to examine how many may be reduced, after the
decease ofthe present holders of sees, so that the duties of the
Established Church may be performed fully and effi-
ciently ; and, with the best consideration that could
be brought to the subject, we think that the number may
he fairly reduced by ten Bishops.—(Loud and continued cheers
re-echoed by Mr. O'Connell.) These bishoprics are :
Dromore, Ferns, Raphoe, Killaloe, Clonfert, Elphin,
Cork, Kildare, Ossory, and Waterford. Of these the latter
is at present vacant, and will remain so.—(Cheers.)
The duties of these Sees will be performed by their
being annexed to others—for instance, Kildare to
Dublin, and Waterford to Cashel, and the Archbishopric
of Tuam will be reduced to a Bishop's See. Sir,
I have stated to the House that the Church revenues
of Ireland amount at present to 130,0001. and 60,000/.
will be deducted from those when the plan comes into
operation which we now propose.—(Hear, hear, hear.) I
believe 1 have now stated all the sums which will
fall under the cognisance of the Commissioners ;
but Sir, there is another thing to be considered.
Gentlemen who may feel the strongest upon
the injustice and the want even of power of Parliament
to interfere with the revenues of the Church, will agree
with this, that if, by any Act of the Legislature, a new
value is given to any property of the Church, the pro-
duce of that new value does not belong to the
Church, because it is an acquisition without any
Act of the Legislature, and whatever belongs to that
new value may tie appropriated immediately to the use
of the State.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) It is
well known that the Bishops have no right to grant
longer leases than for twenty-one years. In practice, I
believe, those leases are almost annually renewed, and a
fine, together with the rent, may be said to form the in-
come of the Bishop. As I understand it, the value of a
Bishop's lease, in Ireland, is twelve and a half years' pur-
chase. The tenants are under this disadvantage, that,
though the leases are renewed every year, still it is
in the power of the Bishops, and has been done, that a
young Bishop may run his life against his tenants, and
thereby deprive persons of property which they may have
been in possession of during the whole of their lives, and
be altogether without remedy.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
They are also placed in this situation, that if the
land is much improved they are liable to an increased
fine, thereby themselves losing the benefit of the improve-
ment. Sir, it is proposed not in the least to diminish the
incomes of the Bishops in this way, but to enable any tenant
who thinks it right to demand it upon certain terms which
I will state immediately, that be shall have a perpetuity in
the land which he now rents of the Bishop, at a
fixed corn reut.—(Hear, hear.) Now, upon inquiry,
we find that upon those terms the value of such a lease,
—a perpetual lease at a fixed corn rent, would be twenty
years' purchase instead of twelve and a half—(Hear)—
but he must pay to acquire this privilege 71 per cent. It is
proposed that the tenure of those of the tenants of the
Bishop who choose to claim it, should be made per-
petual upon a tender of six years' pm ehase.—(Hear, hear.)
This, it will be seen, will be a great benefit to those per-
sons, as it will give them a permanent advantage in any
improvements which they may make on the land, and it
provides against every claim which the Bishop might make
to their disadvantage. The Bishops will still continue
to receive the same rent as at present, but they will not
have the power they at present possess of increasing
their claims. This can only be done by an Act of Parlia-
ment; and therefore it will be necessary to make an Act
increasing the provisions of the Act which gives the Bishops
the present power of making leases. To those gentlemen
who object to epplyine the Church property to other pur-
poses, I will merely say that I expect their concurrence in
favour of this proposition, that whatever fund may
be raised by these purchases, will be at the
disposal of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) I cannot at the
present moment tell what may be the amount of those pur-
chases in the first instance. We know what may be
the amount if the whole be purchased, for it is stated that
500,000/. is the value to the tenant, and 10,0001.
only to the Bishops.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever may
be the amount, it is evident' that the mea-
sure will be of great advantage to the tenants.
Sir, I have now stated the whole of the plan of his Ma-
jesTy's Ministers. I do not mean to say that this is the
only measure that is required with respect to the Church ,
of Ireland. I do not mean to say that there are not other
measures with respect to non-residence, with
respect to pluralities—(Hear)—and for the purpose of in-
ducing the landlords to take on themselves the payment
of tithes. All these measures must be brought under the
consideration of the House ; they will necessarily he so
during the present Session of Parliament; but this is the
measure which I now bring forward with respect to the
temporalities of the Church. Sir, I hope and trust Ole
is a plan which will give general satisfaction.--(Cheers).
That cheer assures me of it. I will not detain the House
ciny longer.—(Hear, hear.) The measure I have pro-
peeed provides for not continuing the scandal of persons
bolding benefices and receiving the revenues of a living
where 40 dory is performed : and it provides to as great
an extent as is practicable or advisable for the reduction of
true number of the Jrish hierarchy. I would also beg to
observe, th it it does not lay down any abstract principle.
Indeed it is not necessary to do so for any practical per-
pose. It is not necessary now to decide whether Parlia-
ment has or has not a right to interfere with Church pro-
perty. As I bare already observed, all wbo think that
there ought to be a Ceurch Establishment at all, must
agree that the Church has the first &aim to be consi-
dered. But when a practical plan like this is brought
forward, it is quite unnecessary to call for a de-
termination on any abstract principle; or to decide
whether or not Parliament has any right to interfere
with the property of the Church. The result of such a
call would be only delay and obstruction. The plan which
I have now detailed to the House is what his Majesty's
Ministers feel themselves justified in proposing at present ;
without meaning to preclude Parliament from considering
ate future disposal of Church property to other purposes
elutes those of the Church. Whenever the purposes of the
Church eve fully satisfied, Parliament may, if it think fir,
proceed to the consideration of the manner in which the
surplus ought to be applied. The question will be per-
fectly open. All we have in view on the present occa-
sion is to submit a practical proposition for a practical
amendment of the law. I will not detain the House any
longer, but will at once move for leave to bring in a Bill
to alter and amend the law relating to the Temporalities
of the Church of Ireland.—(The Noble Lord sat down
amidst deafening cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—I will not detain the House
many minutes, but I cannot refrain from expressing the
°Teat satisfaction and delight which I have this
evening experienced.—(Loud and continued cheering.)
If I feel it my duty to oppose strongly measures, which,
I think, perhaps erroneously, injurious to my country,
I am as ready to give all the little and insignificant support
I am able, to measures which I think for her welfare.—
(Cheers.) To this plan of the Noble Lord I can see no
objection, and its principle carries the seeds of
future amelioration. (Hear.) I would only implore
the Noble Lord to believe that there exists
no other class in Ireland which wishes to be
placed in the situation of the Established Church, so that
he may put out of his calculations entirely the claims of any
such class. If I may speak on behalf of those who concur
with me in religious belief they do not compose that class,
and no man would more decidedly oppose such an object,
nor ever will, than myself. The Noble Lord stated the
true principle on:which office should be conferred. in Ireland,
whesi he stated that merit ought to be the rule by which
it should he conferred, and that the Catholic should obtain
no more, advantage over the Protestant than the Protestant
should over the Catholic. With regard to the Subletting
Act of last year, it had -done even more good than the
Noble Lord was aware of, and what defects are in it,
can be discussedehereafter. The plan proposed by the
Noble Lord jilt eventually raise; a sufficient revenue
from the land. of the Established Chprcla to support
it in a pro Per manner, for it will Improve the
tenure of Church property in that country now so 14d,
The Church lands may always be known by the wretched:.
ness of the inhabitants. Another thing that makes me
rejoice in the plan is, that all corporate property
may hereafter be brought within its principle.—(Hear.) I
have thought it my duty to confess my sentiments thus far
upon the subject. I am obliged to the House for the kind
manner in which they have beard me, and although the
measure does not go so far as I could wish, yet,
as it will establish a most invaluable principle And
plan on this subject, and as it will give the power to
Parliament hereafter to allocate the funds to other
purposes, I give it my most hearty support. I
cannot avoid thanking the Noble Lord for that
measure, which gives -the, entire abolition of the vestry cess.
It is a measure, Sir, that will take away a great
deal of irritation and vexation in Ireland ; and con•
fident I am that the abolition of no cess win
give such- general satisfaction to Ireland as that.
I again, Sir, return my grateful thanks to the Noble
Lord for measures calculated to produce tranquillity
in Ireland; and whatever humble support in the
adoption of those meaiures I can give him, will be given
most heartily.—(The Hon. Member sat down amidst loud
cheers.)
Sir ROBERT INOLIS rose, but, ill cousequence of

the noise in the House, occasioned by a great number
of Members leaving, he was very imperfectly
heard. He would not follow the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman through all his topics of praise to the measure
proposed by the Noble Lord opposite ; nor would he impute
to him anything inconsistent with the due discharge of his
duty to that House ; but he drew from the support
which the Hon. and Learned Member had given to the
Noble Lord, a new argument against the admission of
those gentlemen who, by the King's writ, were assembled
there to discuss the subject of the Established Church.
He would not, after the discussion upon that subject
lest night, say any thing farther respecting persons of
a different religion. If the Notate Lord (Althorp) as
the Minister of the King, who was the head of
the Church, could stand in that House and recommend I
such measures as be had this night disclosed, he (Sir R.
Inglis) could only say that those measures were, in his
opinion, inconsistent with the principles upon which
the Church of England was founded.—(Hear, bear.)
He would bring again to the attention of the Noble
Lord opposite, and to the House, the oath
taken by Members at that table.—(Much laughter.)
Gentlemen might laugh, but that would not deter him
from doing so. It would be seen by the oath, that
gentlemen pledged themselves to preserve to the Bishops
and Clergy, all such rights and privileges as
by law should appertain unto them.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He could understand this repeated laughter,
if this oath was to be considered as good for nothing ;
but he could not understand how any one, reading
the oath as he had put it, could conceive that he would
discharge his duty and acquit his conscience, by giving his
sanction to an Act which at once annihilated one half
of the Bishops of Ireland.—(Loud and continued laughter.)
How could that be said to preserve to the Bishops
and clergy their rights and privileges as by law
established? How it was to be reconciled to one's con-
science he knew not. He considered it decidedly
contrary to the oath. He considered it equally contrary
to the obligation under which Honourable Members
entered that House, when they came there directed to
consult what was for the good of the Church.—( Hear. )
He would ask if it were no violation, that an excision
should be made of ten Bishops: if not, where would such
' a violation commence, at twelve,- or fourteen, or any
greater number ? It had been upheld; that the destruction of
a single see would be a violation of the solemn Union between
the two countries, and he could not himself understand,
if the Noble Lord felt at liberty to do away with one
half, how he would go about to preserve the remainder.
He would again contend that it was as much a violation
to destroy half as the whole, and this was his
preliminary objection to the measure of the Noble Lord.
Surprised as he (Sir Robert Inglis) had been by the
measure of Reform, introduced by the Noble Lord, the Pay-
master of the Forces, still more was he astonished by the extent
of the measure now introduced to the House, and he be-
lieved that the Honourable Member for Dublin, after
having for three or four days assailed Ministers 'with
his speeches, could not have expected anything,
to excite his gratification equal to the propositions of the
Noble Lord. It was a pandering to popular opinion ; he
would say it was a pandering to the bad passions of those
out of doors, when a measure was proposed in direct
opposition to the Coronation Oath—to the Act
of Union—anal the oaths of Members of Parliament.
He could not see how the friends of the people
could propose a clerical property tax. The Noble
Lord proposed to do away with Church rates. This
would only be putting money into the landlords' pockets.
while it cut off from the Church one of its legitimate sources
of support. The time, too, when this measure was introduced
was most improper. At no period since the Reformation
had there ever existed lass occasion for such a sweeping
measure. At no time since the reign of Henry VIII.,
had men of more talent, and piety, and efficiency be-
longed to that Church. The mischief, the wickedness,
and injustice of this measure were obvious. The
Act of the Union, and that for the relief of the
Roman Catholics were contravened by this absurd,
sweeping, destructive, and most uncalled for measure. In
his opinion, by sacrificing the Church of Ireland, Mini-
sters were only preserving a precarious existence for
themselves. Such a measure would tend to the injury of
all civil property, and the destruction of the Church itself.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT then rose. He thought
that, so far from the measure tending to any
of the consequences anticipated by the Honourable Ba-
ronet—instead of tending to bring the property of the
Church to destruction, it would strengthen all the ties
of civilization in Ireland, and would increase the value
of her property.—(Cheers.) He was extremely glad
that the House and the country had escaped from those
frightful shadows which had mistakenly arisen in the
mind of the Hon. Member for Dublin.—(Cheers.)
He trusted that the sentiments uttered that day by the
Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin wool,' be
echoed through the House and the country. The Hon.
Member for Dublin knew full well bow kindly he felt
towards him; anal that no man—no not even himself—
had a stronger feeling of affection and regard fin• Ireland.
He hoped anal trusted the happiest consequences would re •
suit to that country from the proposed measure.—(Cheers)
It was but just and fair to the Administration, which the
Honourable Member for Dublin had himself given the
meed of his praise to, to say that they had nobly redeemed
their pledge, and merited the confidence which had been
reposed in them.—(Cheers.) It would he an earnest of
their good intentions, and of what they would do; it
would bind Ireland to this country by bonds stronger
than any other ; and would promote those good and con.
fiding feelings, from which he augured the happiest re-
sults.—(Cheers.) He believed that this measure would
do away with the necessity of putting into practice those
other measures to which objections might be felt, and
that it was at the same time an earnest that if those mea-
sures were granted, and the Ministers claimed from the
Parliament the grant of extraordinary powers, those
Powers would net be abused. This plan was deserv-
ing of support for another reason—for the confidence
with which it would inspire the people of Ireland, that no
measures of unnecessary severity or force would be resorted
to. —( Hear, hear.) It would, besides, convince every
one that if measures of force were required, and extraor-
dinary power were required, the Ministers, whom he dial
think entitled to the confidence of the country—( Hear,
hew, hear)—might be intrusted with them. They stood
in a different situation from that in which any other Mi-
nisters had been placed—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition)
—for there was now a real responsibility of Ministers.—
(Hear, hear.) This was no longer a party and a packed
House of Parliament, that was at the command of the
Minister, who might come down and ask for any powers,
get them when he pleased, use or abuse them at his will,
and be certain of indemnity after all was over. This
was a Parliament that would exercise a controlling
power—wot:ld grant only what was necessary, would
watch most strictly the execution of the powers
it had confided, and would take care that in all
that was done the attainment of that one object was
kept in view, without which all else would be fruitless—
peace.--( Hear, hear.) This Parliament would only con-
sent to grant extraordinary powers to do that which the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, as well as any
nthel Member, must wish to see done—to repress vio-
lence, to punish violations of the law, to put a stop to
atrocious crimes, by the commission of which the law had
become no longer the shield of the innocent, but the scree❑
of the gualty.—( Hear, hear.) All must desire to see the
system of intimidation got tid of, and honest men obeying
the law without fear and without danger. He repeated,
that he believed this meastlre would tend mere than any
other to do away with the necessity of measures of force and
coercion. He had the strongest hopes that the different
parts of the United Kingdom would by the effects of this
measure become really united. This w ae, in every respect,
a measure which entitled the Ministry to the confidence of
the people. It showed that the Administration had deter-
mined to correct the evils that had so long been pointed
out; and, above all, it gained for them credit for this
great merit, that the measure was so well concocted, and
so wisely framed as a practical measure, that it met with
the approbation and unanimous support of those most
likely to know the grievances it was intended to correct.
It was a measure on which they must have deeply re-
flected, and for which the country at large would become
attached to them, and would place confidence in them.
At the *une time he must say, that those persons who
were adwopates of the Established Church, and who had
given their acrinieseence to the measure, would not lose
credit with the public foe thgt acquiescence, but would be
the more admired, as it would shim that they were really
anxious to make those just cone ssions that the spirit at
the times required. The details of this meesure would be
discussed when the measure itself came before the House.
lie believed that, in igtroducing this measure, the
Ministers were doing more than any one thing could do
to preserve that Union which, in his 'opinion, was ne-
cessary to the safety, the prosperity, and the grandeur of
the empire.—(Hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said he felt under considerable em-
barrassment in rising to make a few observatians on the
outlines of the plan now presented to the House. He re-
joiced that the debates of this House were to be conducted
in a spirit of conciliation ; but the lion. Baronet cotikl
not expect that he, or any other man of independent mind,
could give up principles that were as dear to him as hie
life.—(Hear, hear.) He had been a Member of the Com-
mittee on the subject of tithes.:—the report on which, and
the course the examination had taken, had prefigured to
him the views of the Government with regard to the

Church of Ireland. Ott that occasion he had made his
sentiments known ; but, making allowance for circum-
stances, he had not made any objections to the report, but
on a subsequent occasion he had expressed his sentiments
on the matter. To those sentiments he now adhered. He '
did not object to that distribution which would insure an
equal remuneration to resident clergymen—he did not ob-
ject to the more general diffusion of the revenues of the
Church, nor to the more general provision for Protestant
ministers throughout the country. Having concurred
with some part of the report, and on the grounds he had
stated, he was much disappointed by the motion that had
now been made. If he felt it to be his duty in the diffe-
rent stages of the measure to canvass its necessity, or to
scrutinize its details in a certain spirit of hostility, he
should have no other motive but a desire for the welfare
of the country. Of this he was convinced, the Church
must ultimately be one of the best means of the salvation
of the country. He regretted, therefore, most deeply,
that the influence of the Church should be diminished.
The first principle of the measure was the destruction of
more than one half of the power of the Church. Ile
could understand why the Noble Lord should think such
and such incomes too large ; but why should he wish
to withdraw from the Church their influence and power?
On what principle was it that the Noble Lord found
that the area of Ireland was insufficient for twenty-two
.
Bishops, or that that number was only required Eng-
laud ? There was not a man who would not think that
it would be an advantage to divide the area of the
Bishoptics in England— ( Hear, hear, from both sides).....
and so exercise a real effect and constant control over
the people. In the early ages of the Church there bad
been always a great number of small Bishoprics, because it
was always found that their duties were always better
performed when they had to superintend only a small space,
and that was the more necessary when they were sur-
rounded by people of different persuasions. Did the Noble
Lord find from the Roman Catholics themselves any au-
thority for such a principle? Did they think that ten
Bishops were sufficient for the area of Ireland ? They
had a number of Bishops equal in number to ours, so that
it was evident they did not agree with the principle of the
Noble Lord. There was another objection to the mei.
sure. Five out of the ten Bishops were taken by the
Noble Lord from the Protestant p rot of Ireland—from
that part where, even on his own principle, they ought to
remain, and the people not allowed to be destitute of spi-
ritual control. He objected to the measure with regard to
the religious wants of the country. The Noble Lord had
said, that if there was any living in which during three
years there had been no duty performed, such living
should be placed at the disposal of a certain number of Lay
Commissioners, who should determine whether any other
person should be appointed to it. Was there ever any
proposition so monstrous ? Had the Noble Lord forgotten
that residence and death had been for some time almost
synonymous terms ?—(Hear, hear.) And surely, under
such circumstances, the most conscientious men might be
excused for non-residence.—( Hear, hear.) Would the
Noble Lord say that he would on that account declare that
the voice of the English Church should not be heard in
Ireland? Would he for such a reason permit any part of
the country to forego for ever the benefit of an establish-
ment? In what he had said, he was actuated by no poli-
tical feeling whatever. The Noble Lord had stated that
this measure involved no question of principle. But what
dii the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin say to it?
He did not seem to agree with that observation, for he
spoke of Ecclesiastical Corporations, and the House must
look to see the principle carried into other corporations.
This was a measure of conciliation. Could be forget what
had occurred with regard to former measures of concilia-
tion ? If he argued from past times—though he hoped
that such emergencies would not again occur—yet it was
possible that occasions might arise when the vigour of Par-
liament must again interpose for the protection of life and
property; and if on such occasions the Government
thought that it was necessary to resort to conciliation
again, who was to anticipate what might then occur?
Such occasions might happen at a moment when ten
Bishoprics would create as much odium as twenty-two did
now; and when small incomes paid to the clergy might
be as much disliked as high incomes were at present. If
they pursued that system of legislation, he did not know
whether the period was riot at heed when the Protestant '
religion itself might not be sacrificed to such a principle.
These were important points, and deserved the serious
consideration of the House. He begged leave now to
enter his most serious protest against a measure which he
considered as most important as it related to civil society
in Ireland, and to the state of the Church in that country,
and to the interests of the Church and its property in this.
Mr. BARRON thought that certain Irish Members had
better be excluded altogether from the House, than in-
sulted as they had been. Such observations were most
thoughtless, to say the least of them, and he thcught that
they should not have been made as they had been by the
Hon. Gentleman who had introduced this discussion, and
that they were most indelicate when uttered by others.
He begged to tell those gentlemen, that he and those who
thought with him were incapable of a breach of their
oath, and he hoped there would be no repetition of
imputations of that kind. He thought he had as good a
right as any other man to legislate upon Church property.
As an Irishman, not as a Sectarian, he said that he cinisi
dered the Church as one of the greatest grievances of
Ireland. He never should think of meddling with mat-
ters of doctrine in the Church of England, and if such
subjects came into discussion he might think himself
called upon to withdraw, but the property of the Church
was, in his. opinion, that of the State—(Hear, hear)—
and the State had a right to make what arrangements it
pleased with respect to that property.—(Hear, hear.) The
State had taken the property of the Church from the
Roman Catholics, and had given it to the Protestant Esta-
blishment. The property was given by the State to the
dominant religion of the State, and the State had both
the right and the power thus to dispose of it.—(Hear,
hear.) It was thus disposed of by the King, Lords, and
Commons, who did what they did in a legal and constitu-
tional manner.---(Hear, hear.) In his opinion, this
measure would strengthen the Protestant Establishment
more than any other. If such an act had not shortly
been done, he believed that there would speedily have been
no Establishment in Ireland. The Government felt they
must give way, and they had done it wisely, and mode-
rately, and temperately; and that wisdom and modera-
tion and temperance would he of use to the Church; and
if the Ministry had not so acted, Church property would
have been trampled under foot by the unanimous voice of
the people of Ireland.—(A laugh.) To show the feelings
of the people of Ireland, he would only mention that on
one occasion tithe was demanded, and the persons from
whom it was claimed thought they could resist it 1-gaily.
They went round to raise a subscription, and asked him
among others to subscribe. He told them that the amount
was small, and that the expense of resisting it would be
greater than the advantage they would gain, should they
succeed ; but such was their determination, that they
answered they would resist, if it cost them double
In answer to the Right Honourable Gentleman, he
only wished to observe, that in England the num-
ber of Bishops and the other parts of the Church
Establishment were calculated, not by the surface of
the country, but by the number of souls. Applying that
rate to Ireland, the plan of the Noble Lord was amply
justified. It seemed to him that the Noble Lord (Altkorp)
had conferred a great boon on the Roman Catholics, by
doing away with the Church Cess, and he hoped that the
measure would he unanimously supported. He was con-
vinced that the Bill would allay bad passions, and keep
down the excitement existing in Ireland, and which, ac-
cording to his lett-rs to-day, had been much increased by
the nature of the King's speech.—(hear.)
Lord EBRINGTON, from the interest he had always
taken in this subject, was anxious to make a few observa-
tions, more especially after the speeches delivered by the
two Members for the Universities of Ox'ord and Cam-
bridge (Sir R. Inglis and Mr. Goulhurn). He assured
them, as far as he was acquainted with the dispositions of
Ministers, there was no intention to overthrow the Church
Establishment of Ireland, and expressed his surprise that
the Hon. Baronet had departed a little from the habitual
mildness of his nature, when he indulged in such terms
of vitueeration against the plan of the Noble Lord. lie
(Lord E.) would not retort upon him, or upon the very
few who thought with him in the same strain ; but what
he (Sir R. Inglis) called the integrity of the Church, be
(Lord Ebrington) considered its spots, stains, and abuses,
which not only made it an object of dislike among the
Catholics, but of disgust among the Protestants. He spoke
as a member of the Church of England--a member not in-
different to thou interests of religion, and yielding to none, as
tar as his humble efforts would go, in a desire to maintain
that establishment in its purity and entirety. But he spokes
at the same time, with a strong conviction that nothing had
been more injurious to the security of the establishment in
this country—nothing more likely to expose it to fresh
danger, and, if anything could do it, absolutely to over-
throw it than the attempt to bind up together the sepa-
rate churches of England and Ireland.—(Cheers.) He
hailed the measure of the Noble Lord with cordial satis-
faction, which, while it provided abundantly for the re-
ligious instruction of the Protestants, at the same time re •
moved a great portion of abuses which had brought the
Church of Ireland into odium and contempt. The Hon.
Member for Oxford had complained that no provision was
made by the Nohle Lord for the expensive force of Pro-
testantism in Ireland ; but he (Lord E.) thought that the
Hon. Baronet was mistaken upon the point, for a power

was reserved for renewing and endowing churches, should
the necessity arise. To his (Lord E.'s) knowledge, there
were parishes in Ireland without churches, glebe-houses,
or Protestant population ; in such cases the example of a
Protestant Minister, however unexceptionable and useful
in his private character, deriving an income for the per-
formance of no clerical duties, was highly detrimental,
and nothing less than a scandal upon the Establishment.
But it was contended that the proposed reduction of the
revenues of the Church was calculated to check the growth
of Protestantism in Ireland. The religion of the world did
not show that its growth was in proportion to its revenues, and
the history of Ireland showed directly the converse; for, so
far from Protestantism having increased, it had rather di-
minished in proportion to theexteesion of the population.
The proposed measure, by reconciling the feelings of the
people in general, he was satisfied would di more and
more, not merely to insure the safety of the Church of
Ireland, but to promote the growth of Protestantism. The
Hon. Baronet, Member for Westminster, had expressed a
hope that the introduction of this Bill would render coer-
cive measures in Ireland unnecessary.—(Hear.) He
(Lord E.) wished that he could partake in so sanguine a
view of the subject ; but he hoped and believed, that the
miscreants against whom coercive measures would be
directed, were as unconnected with party feelings in the
House, as with the benefits to be derived from the perma-
nent and satisfactory settlement of the Church of Ireland.
He was as unwilling as any ni in to grant extraordinary
powers, nor would he concede them until a case of neces-
sity was made out ; but lie must say, that the manner in
its
pledge the present Government had thus redeemed
pledge of conciliation, kindness, and redress of grievances,
was a happy earnest of the future; it afforded security,
coupling it with the known reputation of the Members of
the Cabinet; with the character of the present Viceroy,
the Marquis of Anglesea, and he must add, with the
character of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Stanley) to
whom he was more especially anxious to pay this tribute
of respect and good-will, after the manner in which he
had been attacked—(Cheers)—that the powers, if
granted by Parliament, would not be abused. Nay, more,
he was convinced, that Ministers would themselves be un-
willing to ask or to receive them, unless a clear case were
made out that it was impossible to do without them.
Mr. RUTHVEN apprehended the measure of the Noble
Lord would not by any means have the effect anticipated ors
the other side of the House. As to the number of Bishops,
he was of opinion that four would be adequate to the
discharge of the whole duty to devolve upon the twelve,
and the people of Ireland would certainly be much better
satisfied with the four than with the twelve. The best
part of the intended Bill was unquestionably the abolition
of Church rates, and for this he gave the Noble Lord and
his colleagues all the credit they deserved. Church lands
and tithes were public property, and as public property
might be disposed of, and dealt with by Parliament, it
was his conviction that no religious establishment, in
point of revenues or encouragement, ought to have the
advantage over another, and least of all ought any mein •
bees of any establishment to be paid so liberally as to en-
able them to live in luxury, and to lead them away from
the active discharge of their clerical duties. He con-
sidered the chief nature of the present measure merely
this : that it was the preface and prelude to a more com-
plete Reform of the Church of Ireland. As a preface and
prelude it might do some good ; but the poople of Ireland
would not consider it final, and would not be satisfied
without more. He was aware that Lis!) subjects were
distasteful in the House, and he should, therefore, do no
more at present than propose the following amendment
That it is expedient to inquire whether the present Church
Establishment of Ireland be not more than commensurate to
the services to be performed, inasmuch as the state of the
Church property in Ireland appears to require revision and
modification, and that a reduction of the Church Establishment
has become necessary and expedient, so as to facilitate the
ultimate appropriation of its revenues to the uses of their original
objects, viz.—the maintenance of the clergy, the building and
due support of churches and places of public worship, as well
as the relief of the poor; but that under existing circumstances
the present incumbents of parishes in Ireland are entitled to
protection in the arrangement of Church property, the future
regulations of which should be made upon a basis calculated
to afford a proper and suitable provision for the ministry of
the several congregations in the respective parishes in Ireland ;
and also to supply means of materially relieving the poor."
Mr. WARRE did not rise to enter into the merits of
the extraordinary amendment proposed by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dublin, and which seemed calculated to accomplish
no other purpose than to thwart the first great salutary
measure of reform and improvement in Ireland.—
(Cheers.) From the Member fur Oxford (Sir R. Inglis)
lie was prepared to expect opposition, but he was not pre-
pared to hear him (and in his mature judgment the Hon.
Baronet would scarcely be disposed to renew his efforts in
this respect) revive the exploded notion that it would he a
violation of the Coronation Oath for the King to give hie
assent to such a measure as the present, if it were brought
forward by the recognised advisers of the Crown, and
adopted by both Houses of Parliament. To carry this
argument to its full extent would be to make the Corona-
tioa Oath operate as a veto upon every Bill relating to the
regulation of the Church, even its such a trifling matter as
the compulsory augmentation of a curate's salary. If
such were the opinion of the Hon. Baronet, it was not the
opinion of some of the most distineuished and venerable
inembsrs of the Church, and he (Mr. Warre) begged par-
ticularly to refer the House to the excellent (and not less
excellent because it was short, occupying only 42 pages)
pamphlet of Archdeacon Glover, in which he contended
that a total abolition of the tithe system in Ireland was ne-
cessary ; and contended that reform, under the sanction
of Parliament, must begin at the head of the establish.
ment, and thoroughly sift the revenues of the hierarchy.
The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for
Cambridge University, had, in the whole of the observa-
tions which lie had thought it fitting to address to the
House, declared—or, at least, pretty plainly intimated—
that he should oppose himself to any plan of Church Re-
form, of any description whatever. That Right Hon.
Gentleman had taken his stand upon that desperate
ground, declaring that lie would consent to nothing in the
shape of alteration ; and certainly nothing else could be
expected from him, when the whole t.-nor of his Parlia-
mentary and Ministerial life was considered. It was in
perfect accordance with the whole tenor of his public
lite, and with the principles which he at all times pro-
fessed, that lie should oppose himself to vesting in a Com-
mission the right of suspending a clergyman who might
be guilty of a total neglect of duty for the space of three
years. A Right Hon. Gentleman, like him, who could
agree to nothing so reasonable as that proposition, could
not be expected to give his consent to a proposition for re-
ducing the number of Bishops from twenty-two to twelve.
If he (Mr. W.) differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman
on the ground already stated, how much greater must his
dissent be from the objection to the plan which rested it-
self upon the assumption, that, since there were twenty-
two Titular Catholic Bishops, there should, at the same
time, and in the same place, he as many Protestant Bishops?
Surely there was no one in that House, or out of doors,
who would pay the slightest attention to an argument
which proceeded upon such a total disregard of the rela-
tive prepositions of the flocks of the two classes of the
clergy. Having thus britfly adverted to the sentiments
which the House had heard from the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite, he should now bring his remarks
to a close, by stating, that upon the general question,
then fur the first time brought under their consideration,
he should Le sorry not to pronounce an opinion. It was
his decided conviction, that the measure now propounded
to the House was one fraught with the means of imme-
diate benefit to the great body of the Irish population,
and with general advantage to the empire at large. He
rejoiced to see that his Majesty's Ministers had derived
experience from the lessons of history—that they had come
forward with measures of improvement at the proper
time, and that they were prepared to give up a part, in
order that they might save the whole—who were willing
to make some sacrifice in order that they might promote
the well being and the prosperity of all.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I must acknowledge that I do
feel considerable doubt whether the House ought not to
require that a proposition such as this—one so materially
affecting religion—should he brought forward according
to established usage, in a Commiteee of the whole House.
I am sure there are no Members of any Parliamentary ex-
perience who will not readily agree with me, that it would
have been much more in conformity with established
usage if this proposition had been submitted, no: to the
House itself, hut to a Committee of the whole House. It
cannot but be well known to many whom I have the ho-
nour to address, that there is actually a standing order of
the House against matters relating to religion being
brought forward in the manner in which the proposition
of the Noble Lord has been introduced. Perhaps it will
be expected that I should discuss whether it is or is not a
questi in of religion ; but I confess I am fully justified in
taking for granted that it cannot be otherwise considered ;
at the same time I am free to acknowledge that this is a
question upon which every Member will form an opinion
for himself ; but I trust that, in forming such an opinion,
Hon. Members will bear in mind, that, when the
'lest and Corporation Acts were proposed to be repealed,
the proposal was submitted to a Committee of the
whole House ; and I hope it is also not for-
gotten, that when I proposed tie measure for the relief
of the Catholics from the disabilities under which they la-
boured, I submitted the views of his Majesty's Minis-
ters to a Committee of the whole House. Now surely
, if it has been thought ueveriary in the case of a motion for

doing away with civil disabilities to take the sense of a
Committee of the whole House, I am sure every one will
agree with me that it is not less necessary in the case of a
proposition for abolishing ten of the twenty-two bishop-
rics of Ireland. I do really take the liberty to say, that
the one has much more to do with the business of religion
than the other, and that nothing could be less in confor-
mity with the usages of the House than to bring it for-
ward otherwise than in a Committee. If the intention be
to abolish the standing order of which I have been speak-
ing, be it so; hut let that design be candidly avowed. I
am sure the Noble Lord opposite has not adopted this
course from any consideration arising out of the fact that
the standing orders have not been agreed to in the present
Session.—(No, no, from the Ministerial bench.) But
whether the standing order I refer to he now in existence
or not, I have no hesitation in expressing my full convic-
tion, that no reasonable person can urge any objection
whatever to the proposition being made rather in the one
form than in the other. I need scarcely observe to the
House that this is a question of the very highest impor-
tance, and that much time indeed would he required
fer enabling any one not possessing a large share of
confidence in his own judgment to pronounce an
opinion ; and in this case I may well say that
the opportunity for consideration afforded us has been
very short. In addition to the difficulty which I ex-
perience in attempting to form any opinion at all, I do
acknowledge that there is much in the positions taken up
by the Noble Lord which very greatly indispose my mind
to take a favourable view of his proposition ; and I must
be permitted to say, that my confidence in the proposed
plan has not been increased by the manner in which it was
received by the House. Ido freely confess, that the uni-
versal acclamations with which it was hailed, did by no
means induce me to think that it was founded upon such
principles as I should be inclined to recognise, or that it
was likely to be attended with results from which I could
anticipate advantage to the cause of religion or the well-
being of the State. Further, too, my want of confidence
became increased by the apparent determination on the
part of the House to take for granted, without examina-
tion and without ref •ction, that the measure must of
necessity be fraught with the most extensive benefits to
Ireland, the largt st advant ages to the empire generally,
and calculated to afford the best security and furnish the
most effectual means of consolidating the stability of the
Protestant religion. I repeat, that all these circumstances
remove from my mind any hope that such a measure can
be attended with the anticipated results; but I am willing
to give it my most anxious consideration, and I the more
earnestly require time for that purpose, when I recollect
that this proposition involves the most important conside-
rations connected with the Act of Union, and when I
remember, at the same time, its bearing upon the Pro-
testant religion and ti e most vital interests of morality; I,
therefore, say, that a man must hive a large share of con-
fidence in his own judgdment who is prepared at once to
say that this measure is full of wisdom and ought at once
to be adopted. I will not attempt to state in the slightest
degree, the satisfaction which Hon. Gentlemen near me
seem to have felt on the announcement of this plan, until
I shall have previously ascertained that I do fully under-
stand all its provisions. In the first place, I wish to learn
if I have understood the Noble Lord aright, that the Tithe
Composition Act is to remain in full force, and whether
the Acts alluded to in the speech from the Throne are to
be passed in addition to that, and not fer the purpose
either of its repeal or modification. In a word, I want to
know whether or not tithes are to be commuted into a
fixed charge upon the land, and in that form continue to
be collected. The House will recollect that in the last
Parliament a proposition was made for the establishment
of Diocesan Corporations. I should like to learn whether
or not that plan at all enters into the contemplation of his
Majesty's Government. I think I understood the Noble
Lord to say, that we are now to have in Ireland one great
Spiritual Corporation for the management of all the tem-
poralities of the Church, whether arising from tithes, or
from the lands in the possession of the Bishops.
Lord AL'I HORP—I did not speak of it as a corpora-
tion ; what I said was, that the funds now derived from
the Church cess should be placed at the disposal of a Board
of Commissioners, hereafter to be appointed for the ma- i
nagement of that fund, and by them applied to all the
purposes of buildings and repairs to which those funds
have been in all times past applicable. That was not the
same with the Diocesan Corporations of which the Noble
Lord had been speaking.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I am anxious to ascertain this
—Are Diocesan Corporations, or the General Board of
Commissioners to have the management of the tithes; anti
whoever may have the management of them, I wish to
know to what purposes is it intended to appropriate them?
Lord ALTHORP was understood to reply, that the
funds accruing from the composition of tithes were to be
paid to the clergy; and he was further understood to say,
that the Bill then intended to be introduced would not
touch upon the subject of the tithe composition.
Sir R. PEEL—I admit that it is hardly fair that I
should press the Noble Lord with any more questions ;
but I will take the liberty of observing, that the difficulty
I have had, and that I am sure any one must have ex•
perienced, if he attempted to grapple with the subject, in
coming to a clear understanding of what the Noble Lord's
plans are ; it is for this reason that I would call upon the
unprejudiced portion of the House to suspend their judg
merits till we are really acquainted with this great measure,
and qu'alified to form an opinion upon its principles and
details. In taking the liberty of suggesting the difficulties
which stand in our way as to the thrmation of a sound
opinion upon this matter, I would inquire whether or not
the whole revenue of the united Church of England and
Ireland, as it exists in Ireland, is to be applied to eerie-
sias ical purposes solely ? As to the tithe portion of it, I
certainly do understand that that is to he levied as hereto-
fore, and strictly confined to ecclesiastical purposes. So
far, then, for the speech of the Noble Lord. I will now,
with the permission of the Hovse, state the impressions
with which I approached the discussion of this question,
and the general principles according to which I should be
inclined to agree to a modification of the present Church
propetty in Ireland. 1 admit that the time was arrived
when the whole state of the Church ought to be submitted
to an enlarged and comprehensive consideration ; but I
desire it to be understood that I make this admission not
for the purpose of couciliating any party, but because I
think that that consideration should be entered on for the
purpose of adding to the stability of that Church, by the
correction of any real abuses that may be found to exist.
Above all things, I desire it to be understood, that
I do not admit that in any change which might be
made, there should be any alteration made in the pro-
perty of the Church, which would in the slight-
, est degree have the effect of divesting it from eccle-
siastical purposes, for that, I have always main-
tained would shake the foundation upon which all
property rests. Amongst the abuses of the Church, I
should, of course, include pluralities, and I should like-
wise be anxious to see corrected all abuses arising from the
tenure of sinecures. The correction of these would, I
well know, have the effect of destroying the utility of the
Church for the purposes of a Government desiring IN Ivo-
nage ; but I would support such changes as tending to the
advancement of morals, and as calculated to extend the
blessings of the Protestant faith. While upon this part of
the subject, I cannot help aaknowledging, that one of the
purposes with which I rose to address the House was, to
call attention to the present state of the Prorestant clergy
in Ireland. lam sure there is no Gentleman connected
with that part of the United Kingdom who will not readily
admit the gross and crying injustice to which the Pro-
t-stant clergy have been subjected ; and although we
must despair of seeing them permanently snpplied out of
the public funds, yet I an bound to say, that I should not
object to some mode of temporary relief heidg adoptedior that
most suffering and injured class. 1 now come to another
pin of the su je't.t. I have thought, and cottt nue to think,
that no settlement will be satisfactory that does not include
some art angements with respect to the Vestry Cess, with
a view to its being placed upon a different footing from
that which at present prevails. I always thought that
there would be immense advantage in any plan which went
to remove the peasantry as far as possible from any colli-
sion of a hostile nature with the Roman Catholic pea-
santry of Ireland ; but as almost the whole of the landed
property of that country is in the hands of Protestant pro-
prietors, I think nothing could be more fair or reasonable
than the payment of those imposts by the proprietors of
land ; thus, as I should say, relieving the Roman Catholic
proptietors from the payment of any imposts in the form
of Church cess. Those would be my general propositions.
Now let us look at those of the Noble Lord, which all
must admit are of a very extensive nature. He proposes
to abolish ten of two-and-twenty Bishops. At this pro-
position the House seemed to express general satisfaction.
—(Loud cheers.) Yes, those very cheers destroy mycoi,rtnden on
the plan.--(Renewed cheering.) Now I
would the House, before it conies to a final de
c
question, to inquire what are the ditties
iol i confidence iyh this
s beg
which, in consequence of the other alterations proposed--
to many of which I do not object--the Bishops would
have to perform, and whether some other mode than this
extensive numerical reduction might not be resorted to
without increased expense to the country or injury to the
establishment. I am not one of those who think 22
Btshops too many for Ireland, neither am I prepared to
say that the see of Derry ought to be allowed to remain
at 8,0001. a year, for I think it may be doubted whether
or not it would he a great improvement to divide that
and dive 4,000. a t year
sum between two Bishops,

ebtets)
each. Be that, however, as it msy, these
will show some Hon. Membsrs, who may n°t I:truni,
tively have considered the subject, that it was doer
with difficulties, and that, under the circu:nar,otio
ought to be allowed time for further ern° ota'
have already said that I am desirous of seeing u.n..0
rated, but that of necessity leads to the
churches and glebe-houses, and all this 1, of _017r,„
as earnestly as any man, for I am anxious to.lnlt
testant faith and Protestant instruction broter
erilads,
as possible to the Protestant population of Ir
I am sure that Hon. Members will see that pthelii
this nature must have the effect of increasina
u„,r,
of the episcopal portion of the Church. BY decd
the number of those who, in the course of this e le
have been most improperly called the work :re
you increase the duties of the Bishops with
most properly, and with the other you dinTh'i
er
numbers, as I would contend, most unwiselY• te •
I have said from the commencement, nor,
to see the number of the parochial clergy iate
for I think 1 should thereby greatly Pre'. si
temporal as well as the spiritual interests of
people of Ireland, by increasing. the BUM"'
dent gentry in that part of the United Kingd°::,;s 6
the Hon. Member for Bolton will see that nnt",l,er
more injudicious than any such proceeding, f 'the'
the amount of capital employed in that country be,
the profits; the whole of which: profits would et'
might assume, carried over to England, to the gditioo
ment of the Irish, leaving them in a worse COr' 0 03'
before. I suppose we have in this matter bee p
grievous mistake during the whole of our li/xegpeltd.
have uniformly thought that the mote money'ebe for
any district the better might the population otr
circumstance ; but now, upon the best Oil /130111
nised principles of political economy, we lealled sal
is no truth in those crude and old fasbi° of
as
aomittrwlllahmiennebyoo:danpouinwioeteuwl
sedmeosi
rnesvhnepiboe,afibbriDenratide,rteoceut(
mt,plnhbmi t
ceccelyfoiorueoanlfnl
much
erphveroniaoi
el
tsrdnabnshl
tycsuichee
nee:let
welltmt
orsea
asao.nruse ntyuscieLyetfesootnpetishm:aca
aoy,mttn,h
conclusions that ift h sct
dotc
et
rt
ot'e
absentee landlords should be s pifioeatedrtnleePtlren::::enohelffaeLsntiindoih:nr;:idttebsohUnfueut:°lrnt!tedleaystiela.:sol:::,
to acknowledge that such opinions did by no ive3-:,lde
Let us
neCogfrenrmtray disposit►°° ales
the Bishop of Cloyne, ask ourselves this que't s'
Irishlnedr
clergyman
yl
em temp
ar,l gentlemangrepaaotinnaytti
fni
view,
thegiee ~:wo taitsrisyenptolati
part
tt
feth
be is ea ►
coat, and says his prayers twice a day ? Ese°;l4enlict
rele
which he may be fixed? Most Hon. Members
perfectly aware, that if tithes were completely r
elate.he effect would be, that the whole of the Prr-oatt
be pocketed by the landlord; but that surely 1%-restf
summation for which any person sharer IY
the happiness of the country would desire to n'ielidt
I am sure I but spe.k the sentiments of every Opecte
Church and to religion, when I say, that the, to
clergyman should be preserved in circumstan'7lofer"'
up his head amongst men to whom he is not id teat
educatmn, manners, or moral worth ; and I Ti°,ll
say, that n) small portion of his efficiency W;i
upon the fact of his respectability in a tw'r- art°,
view. I really cannot again arrive at this P.
question vvitbiut once mote c tiling the attrlitit Cl'
House to the pr sent state of the Irish Protearsir
lam sure !hat there is not one, even amongst e'
opponents of tithes, who does not feel that they 'eyed
most most bar lly dealt with, and that they have °ale°
grossest amid most cruel injustice, and I Perlubsn
that there are no Irish Members who would sc'
discontented, if the present proposition had V--„rst,
ponied with a proposal for affording them setup lid
lief ; for it is well known that many of them ar-d
disabled from the performance of their duties, ajnet/
them have forgone the exaction of their legit unuodef
then, I would put it to the House, fitting', tbati-el",
circumsances, they should continue objects °opir;
nary support. There is now one remaining, 1,0
which I should wish to address the House, 50", d
it with the view of 1 arning from the Noble Lord
sunk
or not he intends that the Irish Prelacy sh°ll.
as heretofore, to be represented in the House °'( rgel •
four. If he allows the number to remain utlharef'
establishes a greater disproportion between tlt,(l°.;
tatives and the represented than was contemedistiPf
time of the Union ; at the same times, if h,
oo
the number, he equally violates the Act of linI)
e el
let it be remembered, that if he makes the
twelve, and the representative portion four,
eight to do the duty of all Ireland. As to the, tbitl"
lay patronage, and lay impropriation, 1 do °°tosecr
Noble Lord has touched upon it at all in a ft bi'
shoul I satisfy the House ; neither do I think frad to
position for enabling the tenant of Bishop's e
vert hit property into perpetuity on the PaYier,t,
years' porch; tv: at all eligible, for, as I tin 0/
plan of the No'ile Loid, it is not six years,,diegt,'.
according to the improved value, but Etec°' ode',
rent paid to the Bishop. [Lord Althorp irtif
to signify six years' purchase according to t,-tile°
value.] Amongst other things I wish to knov':
thus to be obtained applicable or not to seen°. jos,
I ant aware that the whole of this plan his re(;rolI'.
several Members around me the most perfect 1101
but I tell them that their joy is my grief, and ;
most earnestly beg time to consider maturely t,il'o%jec
There are parts of the measure to which 't
which necessarily will meet with my oppositi°ool;
tire measure, as a whole, all I can say is, thst oo'
that it may be productive of the benefits whiebttgeo
the promoters of it expect. May it be advfote Anti.
the Church and to the country, and may' it
solubly the bonds that ought to unite Cathy"' ail,:
testant,. I sincerely trust that there nlaY I:))er
alteration as to Church property, and that an°nt
ment may not be found to convert it to differe-iy le
If I thought the present measures would s°,,ratie,
such an al erotica], I should object to it as
permanent evil consequences. ,
Mr. STANLEY—The measure of C"-00 ,
proposed by my Noble Fri-nd, the principle atb'
it is founded, and the reception it has met.,
bands of this House, would have rendered
unnecessary for me to trespass on the time °' otis°'
tlemen, had it not been for one or two obserAseif
fell from the Right Hon. Baronet who last 0-3od
House. I feel the peculiarity of my situatio°' If 14
that it entitles Inc to considerable indulgence' 4.00
possible for me to feel regret upon any onet'sotf;
being the organ of Government—if I could ued
any measures did riot originate with me, °id be,
should have fallen into other hands, it tstgee
they wire such that they promised adva°;ill
empire, and tended to promote good ags
all.---(Hear, hear). Whatever personal fee the
he enlisted on either side with respect to the
measure, they seem to be done away with by triblZ
Noble Frien introduce lit, and by the manner „I wet' 1
House received it. I hail all this as a haPPY.iett
kind benevolence all seem inclined to mane ittl,
Ireland ; sod I also hail it as a good augurY% tn;
and unimpassioned discretion that the riati°,,./l,
reason expect from a Reformed Parliarne° 054
When I see almost a general and unhesitating
carded to my Noble Friend's measure, and .vir°,oo(lr
such assent is given to a measure fraught nit'l,erie'v
and utility—when I see that even few of the
0' sit;
s.rvatives do not think tit to object to it, I fel:see;
1 ask upon it as an omen of what maybe
Loris House. It is an omen that this Hon° tne"(
originate nor sanction any rash or head,oog get
t',at it will, as it is bound to do, pr°°l°tse
large and extensive Relurm—but yet not a
get ous to the institutions of the nation and tie 11`'
prosperity of the country at large.—(Hear:4 36°,
will, therefore, express it, the deepest grat'f-aco °°:
great measure now before the House; and; ilbe'e
from saying that I now come forward an'ilaeognel'e
Bill proposed by the Noltle Lord, my e t 4,
when I say this, I distinctly declare at the 9it
I do not consent, and never mean to conse°-,',
sure at all likely to destroy or weaken in atiY,':Oor
testant religion in Ireland, for I am r°°:be
Fri
anxious as any human being can be--that 'lo,er
then,religion
is measure,
eprosper country
►Dly
promoteu)ean
P r
otProtestantestan t
interests i n taies ett it liiiegl()uuol:srffet,ili:a
'lest(
in
of those terms, but I mean the one 'OOO it
ligion—those which promote harmony'
and Protestant, and, by so doing, notatePt/
the security of the whole einpire.--(llear.e
am rejoiced to find that such a inea'ur t"
ge
even
t abpyptt•ohvoseed bwyhsoo
(mi
tfa
ry
Friend, and nho differ among theinselve;oostlct
explanation of the cause of this general !Pl,Ptllat
Noble Friend's measure ; nor do I thuipi,•o, nr, ,
cannot concur with the Right Hon. `.rolta
of the Hon. and Learned Alember for Du e-ollisle/
I have so often conic into disagrecablebotoes,e/
whom I have had to fight so many
_3O on'd
whom, probably, I shall have to tight '"
Member for Dublin ought to bear the liinon.ollplinetinonbert.sroolool:
He
stfo
I do not :bink that the assent of the