The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-14 00:00:00

Learned Gentleman was quite justified in moving an in-
struction to the Committee of the nature proposed. He had
always heard it laid down as a rule of tbat House, that in-
structions to a Committee, not giving thatreommittee power
beyond what it possessed before, could not be moved. The
Committee already possessed, the power of altering the
clause to which the Hon and Learned Member bad referred,
and therefore his instruction, to say the least, was unne-
cessary. It appeared to him tdiat the moving of such an
instruction could only be intended for the purpose of delay.
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
told the House he wished to take its opinions upon three
great constitutional questions—first, upon the impropriety
of abolishing the right of petition ; next, upon the im-
propriety of abolishing the trial by jury; and, thirdly,
upon the impolicy of suspending the Habeas Corpus Act.
Taking these questions as abstract questions, it would, no
doubt, be favourable to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
object to ask the House whether it was favourably disposed
or not to the right of petition; for there could he no
question that every Member would agree that the right of
petition was one of the most valuable rights enjeyel by
British subjects. But the question now was, whether the
circumstances of the times were such as to make it expe-
dient and necessary to suspend, to a certain degree, but not
entirely, certain rights which were connected with the
right of petitioning, but which were not the right of pe-
titioning itself.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
Man said, that by the first clause of this Bill the right of
petitioning was done away with altogether. Now, nothing
could be a greater exaggeration than such a statement ; for
the first clause of e Bill merely said that the Lord-Lieu-
tenant might, by order, prohibit or suppress the meeting
of any assembly deemed by him to be dangerous to the
public peace, or inconvenient with the due administration
of the law. From these words he thought it evident that
the Lord-Lieutenant, who was a responsible officer, and
whose responsibility, in the feeling of Parliament, was not
diminished but increased by the present Bill, had no power
to prohibit or suppress any meeting which was not deemed
by him dangerous to the public peace, &c. He admitted
that there were other clauses of the Bill by which no
meeting for petitioning Parliament could be held in a pro-
claimed district without the previous consent of the Lord-
Lieutenant ; but the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
decidedly in error when he contended that no meeting
could be held for that purpose in any part of Ireland with-
°it the previous consent of that officer. He (Lord Althorp)
eentended, that so far from the right of petitioning being
done away with altogether in Ireland, it was not done
stwy with even in the proclaimed districts, for, un-
questionably, petitions might be circulated from man
to man, and as many signatures as possibly obtained in
that manner,. But," said ►he Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, " petitions signed in this way have not
the same effect as petitions agreed to at public meet-
ings." He (Lord Althorp) contended that petitions
obtained in this private manner could only be consi-
dered as expressing the sentiments of those who sub-
scribed them ; but that petitions voted at public meetings
might fairly be taken to express the sentiments of the
majority of the inhabitants of the districts in which such
meetings were held. In the present state of Ireland, be
was inclined to believe that the opinion of a public meet-
ing was not so much the opinion of the majority of the
inhabitants of the town or district in which it was held
as it generally was, and as, constitutionally speaking, it
ought to be considered.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, in arguing the propriety of his in-
struction, bad travelled out of that question, and had
treated the House with an invective against other clauses
of the Bill which were not at all connected with his pro-
position.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Althorp) was of
opinion that the proper season for discussing the clauses
to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had objected
would be in the Committee. As to the clause making any
place where a party was detained under this Act a lawful
gaol for his detention, it was not, in his opinion, a point
of much importance to those who supported the Bill.
The objections taken to it were strong, and he was
therefore not inclined to insist upon it. —( Hear,
hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman bad also
contended that even after the statement which
he (Lord Althorp) had just made, the right of
search by night was continued by this Bill. Now,
be (Lord Althorp) was prepared to insist that after the
alteration which he had just made, there could be no
search by night, either for persons or for arms, under the
present Bill. The right of searching for arms by night
existed under a law at present in force, and therefore
there was no occasion for the present Bill either to give
or to continue it. As to the right of meeting to petition
in a district proclaimed as disturbed, he really saw nothing
more mischievous, nothing more likely to continue the
disturbances which all sides wished to check, than the as-
sembling of large meetings at which discussions were to
take place similar to those which had recently taken
place in Dublin.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman had said, that if inflammatory langUage were
used at such meetings, it was open to prosecution. Now
Ye was of opinion that the Hen. and Learned Gentleman
knew well enough bow inflammatory language might be
used without coining under the lash of the law.—(lleer.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had alluded to the case
of a man who had been prosecuted tor seditious language
in the county of Clare.
Here Mr. O'CONNELL made some remark across the
table to the Noble Lord ; but the remark, as well as the
reply to it, were inaudible in the gallery.
Lord ALTHORP then proceeded. An Hon. Member,
but he forgot what Hon. Member, bad said, in the course
of the debate, that the man thus prosecuted was a Go-
vernment spy. If he were, how did it happen that the
Cro n had been his prosecutor ?—(Hear, bear.) He was
afraid that in arguing the impropriety of this instruction
he had gone further into the question than be ought to
have gone; but in a case like the present, where it was
not proposed to give to the Committee any power which
it had not at present, if it thought proper to exercise it,
the only effect of yielding to this proposition would be, to
discus, the same question over again, and thus to de'ay
the immediate passing of the Bill.—(Hear.) He had now
explained the grounds on which he thought the question
ought not to be brought forward now as to the abstrac

right of the subject to petition, and upon those very
grounds he must state his conviction to be, that this in.
struction was not called for.—(Hear.)
Mr. H GRATTAN conceived that those who were
opposed to this Biit were bound to express their objections
to it at every stage of it. The object of Ministers in
bringing it forward was twofold—it was to put down
predial agitation in the first instance, and to stop politi-
cal agitation in ihe second. The House was agreed as to
the necessity of effecting the first object, and only differed
as to the necessity of the latter. He thought that it was
possible to bye put a stop to both without transgressing
the limits of the Constitution. The Insurrection Act
would have put down predial agitation, and the 10th of Geo.
IV., c. 1, u ould have stopped political agitation. The
Hon. Gentleman proceeded to condemn the Bill, because
it took away the right of petition ; because it destroyed
the liberty of the press and the freedom of discussion ;
because it was intended to promote the col'ection of

tithes ; because, severe as it was, it was not adequate to
the purposes for which it was intended ; and because the
justification of it was not made out—a justification which
rested on the increase of crime in Ireland having been
greater during the last three years than the increase of
crime in England ; but which was completely contra-
dicted by returns which were on the table of the House,
and which bad bee❑ quoted with such triumphant effect
on a former night by the lion. ai:d Learned Member for
Dublin. He concluded by calling upon the Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland to give the House a distinct avowal

that he did not intend to use this Bill as an engine for the
more cet t.in collection of tithes.

The gallery was then cleared for a division, when the
numbers were:—

For adopting Mr. O'Connell's instruction (13
Against it 123
Majority
There was a second division on the question, •' That
the Speaker do now leave the chair." The numbers
Were—

For the motion
Against it 34
Majority -117
On our readmission to the gallery, we found the House
in Committee, Mr. BEKNAL in the chair.
On the question being put, " That the preamble be
postponed,"

_
Mr. O'CONNELT. said, that the prettnble contained a
recital to which he entirely objected. It set forth--‘• And
whereas divers meetings and assemblies, inconsistent with
the public peace and safety, and with the exercise of regular
government, have for some time past been held in Ire-
land ; and whereas the laws now in force in that part of
the United Kingdom have been found inadequate to the
prompt and effectual suppression of the said mischiefs, and
the interposition of Parliament is necessary for the pur-
pose of checking the further progress of the same." Now,
he denied the truth of that assertion. He would say, with
great respect, that there never was a more false assertion
introduced into an Act of Parliament. Anything so utterly
devoid of truth never had been before declured in a public
assembly, as that the laws in that part of the United
Kingdom were found inefficient for the suppression of
disturbance and the preservation of property. Mark !
It was known by the experience of E,gland, and by
the experience of Ireland, that disturbance was always sup-
pressed by the effectual execution of the law. Wherever
they had carried the law strictly into effect they put an

end w disturbance. This was a matter of fact, borne out