The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-17 00:00:00

ve.tig ttion.

Mr COBBETT believed that mistaken notions pre-
vailed with respect to the efficacy of the American spstem
of imprisonment. The commitments In Perinsrvania had
veitly increased of late years, be believed by 20, if not
40, per cent.
Mr. WAItBURTON did not object to the present
enormous ex; eose of the gaol, provided it were not OM.
.oter the trial of the newly-suggested system of
imprisonment.

Mr. HUME thought the charge of 6.000/. for super-
intend leg 400 prisoners ter he ve,y
Mr. S. RICE .icknowlrfigod that the salaries were too
high, but he wish d them to be continued under the pre-
trial of the new system.
The vote w A then put and carried.
Lee sum of 1,514/. .e as voted to mike good the defi-
ciency eel fee-s in tie tE..e ut Reg+-trars eit the Slaveti in
the C Tolies; and 4.5701. toi the sAeries el the St rte
Paper ntfice, and the .etlit:e f)r the -cu,tudy of the recir.:l9
en the T wer.

(hi tin, !notion tha! 7,0971. )1-,grant-d for the exp,
of the C logniry into the practice of the
~uperior tr of CATIIIIIOII La.V,

111 r• HUME thought that the names of those gentl..-
.eil nho tee, pty for this se. vee ought to be sta•ed,
as Weil a• the nantris ot those whose set vices were gr,tuoous.
Mr. TOOKE thought some ot the salaries were exor-
nitaotly high.

A.ter a tew words from Mr. EWART, the moan'

agreed t...

On the inflion that 16,5(101. be granted to, d.frty he
expcuseN n. the C. llntni•bliiiiern appointed to revent the il-
legal tiatfio in .Isve..,
Ali. HUME wasted to know the numb.r of vessels that
bad been condo-mooed b, these slave trade tribunals?

Litt( YAL.UERSION replit7tl thatheservCes of these
G/II 1111 l ...sowers were to he appreciated by the prevention
ut the ',raffle ratter than by the eases they brought to
punishtn,to.

Mr. COBBETT thnught th. salaries enormous.
Mr. STAN,.EY bald that salaries to induce men to go
to Stan a Leone could no. be very low.
Mr. coBBETT rej.iineil that it the place will so very
bad the less they li dri to do with it the he:ter.

The vote was then agr.ed ta.
On the motion that the sum of 78,075/. he granted to
defray the salaries Ind expenses of &lush Consuls abroad,
Mr. HUM E compl duel of the allowances granted to
clergymen who resided abroad whilst they c imitated to
hunt livings in Eaglaud. He though, Consuls were oft. n
unnecessarily kept at ports to which very few British
ships ever resorted.

Lord PALMERSTON replied that with respect to tLe
appointment of chaplains he had nothing to do with the
selection or patr image. The practice was, that when
any British coininum y of a certain amount in a foreign
town wrote home to be supplird with a chaplain, their
c rtificate was suoinitted to the Bishop of London, and
on his approval of the person the appointment took
place. He had taken Consuls away from many ports at
winch the British trade was not sufficient to justify the
ense of their continuance; but, on the other hind,
he had r, ceived complaints from British merchants that
Consuls were not apouinted to several places at which
British interests required their protection.

Mr. HUME w-t-.tied to know why 1,0001. a•year
should be paid to a C tnsul in the AuNtrian Sates when
there was a British M.nister at the Court of Vienna with
a siliry of of 12,0001. a-bear,

Mr. O'REILLY th:Aight that there ought to be a
schoolmaster appo►nted wherever there was a chaplain.
Mr. CORBETT objected to the Consuls being paid
by salaries instead of tees, from which cause the duties
acre not so diligently performed as they would other-
wise be.

Lord PALMERSTON maintained that the present
system did not cause inattention or absence from busin..bs
Toe salaries had been reduced from 69,0001. to 61,000/.
As to paying the C insuls by fees it would be a doubtful
experiment. He thought, however, it was better to
throw the expense on the general revenue of the country.
Mr. YOUNG begged to know why 1,500/. a year
was paid to the Consul• General at Hamburg. He thought-

this an exorbitant salary, though it was not so grei4
as some salaries paid to Consuls in South America.
Lord PALMERSTON explained that the Consul.
general at Hamburg was a diplomatic agent of the Hanse
Towns. The Hon. Member had said that the salaries in
South America were high. So they were; but the pre-
cious metals abounding there, money was of less va'ue,
and hence the necessity of giving large salaries. Since
the House separated he had made inquiry as to the Rev.
Mr. Penson's case, and he bad found that when 04
French were about to enter Tuscany he sent such inlor..
mation to Leghorn as to enable persons to ship off rt•
perty to the amount of :he believed) half a million of
money, which wou,cl have been lost if the inhabitants had
been kept twenty-tour hours longer in ignorance of the
approach of the enemy. The pension was given in the
,ime of Lord Castlereagh, upon certain recommendations
made to him, and on the ground of his having been en.
it reed ten yews in the diplomatic service. He was not
then in orders. The services of Mr. Pennon were stated
in the Parliamentary Paper No. 804 of this year.
Mr. CLAY complained of the high salaries p to the
Consols at Morocco. Tunis, and Algiers. He did not
think that this splen four was necessary to keep up the
.lienity or character of the country. Thus the American
.1.100:natio ;mews, &c., reeeiv -d very small salaries.
Lord PALUERSTON considered that the salaries
riven to the British Diplomatic Aleuts and C muds were
not greater than they must necessarily be, in order that
he persons appointed to perform important public
dirties should have the power to retain th it station in
that society which they were entitled to. With reg aril
-0 the American Charges d'Affaires, the fact was that as
far as their Ministers were concerned their salaries were
so small that the Minister ro this Curt was allowed two
years' salary during the first year, and, as he rernaine here
.ten-rally only two p.n.s, he thus r,ceived three y arh'
.vary. Again, the Secret.ry for Foreign Affairs in the
United States had decl •rel that the .aldri, o
:016, agents Were not sufficient for the purposes 11 Timed.
Mr. COBBETT denied that the Atneric in M utters
only r• m • ined in this country two years. Mr. hush was
oere lor fur years. With respect to the R- v. Thomas
Pen-on, it appeared by the estimates that be had only been
in office five months. That gent! man had beat two
livings for many years.

Mr. HUME said the recommendation was ma 'e in
1800, but the pension W4ll never paid till 1812 This he
considered to be really a suspicious case. Tttis Len,leman
hail received a pension for 21 years, it not having been
gr.nted t II 12 years after the services performed.
Lard PALMERSTON here read a letter from Mr.
Windham, recommending Mr. Pennon to the Governor nt,
stating that Mr. Pennon had been Private S -rreiar ro
h in, that he had been employed in various difficult mis-
sions, and had been eng teed in many dangerous situations,
having conducted himself with great advantage to the
public service, and recommending him to the attention of
the Government.

Mr. HUME said there was no fund to provide for the
private secretary of Mr. Wiwiham.

_ ..—.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD objected to the salary of 600/. to
the Consul at Warsaw.

Mr. M. PHILLIPS wished to know whether the Con-
suls received any fees in the shape of notarial charges?
Lord PALMERSTON said that in some instances they
did—that the amount of salary was couringent upon va-
rious circumstanc,•e. When the fees were high the salary
was low, as in the case of the Consul at Ito Janeiro, &c.
After a few words from Mr. COBBETT, who observed
that the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Almi-
ralty had formerly declared that the whole system of pay-
ing our Consuls was bad, and he had by his exertions on
this question secured for himself great popularity, which
popularity he seemed now to slight.
Sir J. GRAHAM begged to state that the exposition
which be had made relative to this question hail, he be-
lieved, produced a considerable eff-ct upon the House, and
it had led to a revision of the former arrangements.
Milling was more Catering to him than that his conduct
should meet with the approbation of his fellow subi-cts ;
but, however highly he might appreciate the value of that
good will and popularity, he would nut be tempted by it,
in the discharge of his public duty, to do that which he
might consider to be injurious to the public service.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the qu-stiou that a sum of 13,1501. be allowed to
his M.jessy to defray the charge of salaries, travelling ex-
penses. of the Commissioners for inquiring into cha-
rities, b,inz proposed,

Mr. TOOKE objected to this grant. The Commis•
sioners hid already entailed an expense on the country of
150,0001., and it wa., not formed of that class of men who
should require large salaries. He would propose s reduc-
tion of 2,5001. from this vote, leaving the Commissioners
800/. a year each, and taking their allowances away from
them.

After a few wordq from Mr. HUIIE, who s'id that
persona nn r.tir.d allowanc-•s should tike these offices,

Mr. S. RICE said that the Commission on charities
was not an act of the present Government; and what they
had to state was, that they ha 1 reduced tle expense of
*he Commitoiiin very con4lerahly. They hrd nein:led
the salaries of eaeh of the CiminisNioners from 1,0001. to
SOO/ per annum, .mod th:• travelling expens.s in propor..
tion. Thii Treasury had only to look to the work don for
the money paid. The Commission, which went in cir-
cuit., had travelled upward+ of two thousand mile-. There
could b:• no doubt that persons on retired allowinces might
lie called into active service, but it did not follow that b.-
cause a man received a retired allowance, he was theref•oe
ualifi d to act in any capacity.

Mr. HUIIE slid in the ,uperannwited CommiAsioners
of the old S,amp Board he could find very able men ; (4);
instance, he would take Mr. Sed. wick, who wts super-
ar.noated on 400/. per annum, and Mr. H 1 lad,. He
certainly would not appoint them to the &tine Comtnissiou
again after what nrco.red.

Mr. BROTHER "TON argued (a 4 we undormt,ind) that
if the account.; of these eh I riti.s were ;egol oly
annual v much abu,e would he done away with, and great

expense saved.
Mr. HARVEY deprecated the proceedings of this
Commission. Though 24 reports hail been &Irvn up,
not one of the counties in which they h ,I 1 he, n env; t. rd
sons :lied
(tw.liirattesni;t:;imewPl.,:eatrt':.
he
efT
could
trh4eo' rasher
their•
al el:n;(11 %lin': tph
a.
tees
n•hilst anott,er wen. to nj by the air and w i,f
13 tth. The exuense of this commission to he c .untry
aimitriteil to a quarter of a million of money, thotieti be
had himself ~ugges+el a plan in 1830. by wliich the
hle ammo might Ire taken hack to the Tr a ury.
13 000/. hail he-n alrealv pail to the s dtct^or 0• rlw
c.iiiimission Of 100 ea.,. %hie!, hail been in ut rte i
n•I ten i,ad Il en completed in '11:: C ort Cli.ocery.
Toe income ,liear chwitie4 was 600 000/. frimi land,
while 2.000,000/. w,re in the hands of i•rusti es. Tool
a char •e for a secret try. 5001., was m irle, ;here iieniA uu
such person.
Mr. S RICE .417 if there were no secre`ary no v.,te
would in fully,. h, allowed f that pnriErw• _

Mr. C. FF.RG USSON di I not object t.. the istkrt
but fo the wo,k •lour. f obj •cred strongly to the 4y,tetil
of circuit+. These connsvinners ought to e the de ive
aurrerinrr-nrling power, arid they ought to k, ep at their
businesq.

Lord ALTHORP was gild this discussion had
beclos. the commissioners wouLl know wh a the feel-
ing of th. H,os. less.

Mr. TOOKE withdrew his imendinent, ar.J th- v“te
was a v epri

The next question was that a sum of 55 5671. (or
55,9671) b' granted to his Maj sty to de!ray the expense
rt. re fired allmeanco. or superannuation of ptrsons eat
ploy d in public (Aces.
Mr. CLAY did not believe that any improvement which
could he made in the present system could justify the just
expectations of the people. and main'ained that thi,
country was not in a situation to pay allowances or salari•
beyond the print' for which men were able to perfuna
their duties.

Mr. CORBETT advocated the same opinion, but
would not apply the prin-iple to persons wounded in the
army or navy, or other extreme cases. Bu• he mould
hot account for au item of 75/. to the sister of a clerk in
this estimase.

Mr. ROIRINSON sail no effectual relief could be ex-
pected until it was generally understood that no persons
iii the civil service should in future be entitled to sup 4.,
iinnuation. The returns laid upon the table proved the
o•sest a'iuses in this respect in the Excise.
Lord ALTHORP said that all civil appointments now
were taken under the condition of contributing 5/. Ner
cent. of salary to a superannuation fund. All such offices
were now perfec•ly open to any regu'ation Parliament
;night think fit to adopt.

In answer to an on:ervation from Mr. I-lUNIF„ reapeet-
ing a Mr. Brownrigge, formerly belonging
Biiid of Inland Navigation,
Mr. S. RICE said this gentleman bad given op his
pr,feision of a civil engineer to enter this service. lle
voted himself entirely to the Board, and had setved 33
yetrs. All the other officers o
the
Board towire
gl ittillete.
they
wre to hive no superannuation. Tois gentleman. how-
ever, at the age of 84, would have been thus lett to starve
f-,r his long services. It was therefore determine(' to
:!i,e bun this allowance of 3001., milting his ease an ex-

-ration.
HUAkE understo }d Le ►vas a gentleman of fortune,
%Ow kept his curiae.

Mr. S.-RICE believed not.
Lord ALTHONP .aid it he were a person of indepfn.
&on fortune- he should con.ider it a fit suhject for futur,

Mr. HUME. said no 1 ngth of sfrvico w .s stated in this
and in rithrr eises in the estimate. He alluded to that of
Sir Charire'F+in•.

Mr. S. RICE said the- reagon wag that they were all
allow ineeg 'pergnng on the abolition of office.
•Mr..FILTII E rongirlered *abolition equivalent to vacancy
Mr S. RlCE—That would be a rno,t dangerous prin
cirtle. ' _ .

:Lord ALTHORP said there were two modes of getting
rid of offiee.—ore hv death, and the other by superannua-
tion. NV, ere The • ffiees were u.eles% he thin lit it better
not to wait 'or the death of the person holding th, m, but
to give a" all•ov -nee in the way of superannuation.
STANLEY se it the e• rki in Sir C. Flint's ffiee
wee• r• oe t epty six to seven, and the efug.
hum 8 000/. to 3 000/.

Al, HUME apt ed of what had been done on this
be. ii t.v tb• Ruh' Hon Gentleman.

Mr. ROBINSON stain i sisted open the necessity of
•having the principle in fu•ure acted upon that no civil
Iffic;r wa• to ,rc•rive a reciting all.ovance. Men who
w re I ni. in nulilie ..f es should to ke provision for the .r
01. l ate as nth. rs did

S r J. GRAFI AM .aid this subject was open fur dis-
cus n Pf-X,

Mr CORBETT said such important questions as this
shun' fo ward early in the se sion
L rd A LTHORP admitted tie ju rice of the observa-
tion The ealli part of th,s session, boa ever, was oecu-
ped with. TiPs inry. f at-amount t
Si, E. KNATCHBULL iinn.rl that in future the esti
mates would not be ME, rte.; to so I .to a period. The
Hon. Al,mher said he eott• t put his fink,' nn m ny eases
in the Itish Superannuatint. List in wh;eh no I nutli c f
service Was sta ed. 11.- lido v. d Government were not
arquaint,ll with a 1 ti e eir,umstanee4 in these ease.. If
n whet- person lironeht the suhjee, tot wind, he should.
Mr. S. RICE said he was quite ready to give any in-
formation.

Nlr. HUME tail' there were nine or ten geneletuen
superannuated ~• One w•is the former Consul
at I3To no Aye, w a, the age thirty-two, was te-
ce wing a p,.mi n of 1,0001. a ye,r.
_ .

,
F BAN N , said this was a ease of abolition.
Alt. HUME said th• re was the ease also of M .
Prnifell. He had been twenty-eieht years Consul at Rio

J.ll riro

Mr. S. RlCE—That was his whole len,,th of service.
In prp.o e, to ,to °too-vein,' from an HON. MEMRKR,

Mr. S. RD E sail that 11r. Alohere and Mr. Hoppner
were a, pre.. n,
Sir E. KNATCHBULI. wished to know wh•th r thP
pr4l..iiile of laying by 51. fair cent. was applicable to high
offices.

L. rd ALT HORP—To all offices entitled to superan-
m.tion allowance.

In an•wer to another question from Sir E. KNATCH-
BULL.

Lord PALMERSTON said the high offices of Srate
and dipl .matic tffiees were regulated by other Acts of
Parliament.

Air. HUME s,id all offices in this respect, civil or
le placed on the same footing.
Lord PALMERSTON .aid diplomatic pensions rested
upon a s,para,e Act of P trli ,meat. H•• was not aware
of any intention to tevise this Act, which passed only last
St

Lid AL I'HORP said, though the Act passed only last
Session, Pat 'lament might take up the subject again it they
pleased.
FOBBETT said there was hs•re the case of a per-
n who ower,d the see vice at eighteen, served fifteen
ytert, was n w o y 'l.`rty•,hrre years old, and had a pen-
tin nif 751. a y at f r life; for fb • psyment of whico the
opie ot this e, unity must wt. k. T.:ere was anotl er
case of an individual who cnttred the service at 11., was
now 3S years old, with a pension of 2001. a year, for which
also the people must work. Such a system ought to be
put an end to.
Sir F. BARING said these al.o were cases of abolition
of ffice.
Sir. COBRETT did not mean to insinuate that Minis-
ters wished to continue abuses, but it was his duty to
mul ties- ohservati ns.

M. S. RICE -aid in one of these ea•,es infirmity of
health was th.. cause of retirement, and in the other im
beeility of o.,nd. It was so stated.

Mr. COBBETT did not üb,erve this at the time be
m nle tie ob•ervaiion.

Mr. S. RlCE—'l',.e Hon. Member should have attend-
ed to dli the eireott,stanres ot these eases be ore be mice
them a esoun, o. fntma, emniplaii.t.
Mr. COBBETT cont.nclot, that in these ease., a. well
a, in all ea-es of civil ~ffice, there ought to he no super-

antitiwion

31,. HUME asked shy 111,. Charles El ice was ylaceri
on the pen. on list, alter on yIS year service ? Were
these nth. r dories that he mikht perform ?
. . _

Alr F. BARING Paid this hl-o ;as a ra4e eitt er of
abolition or eobsolidation of five, and a source of p bis
saving fir b,id no eoubt of 111 r. Ell cc's 'fret readiness
s.ltic ye I edh-d Ilpf.n. .
_ _

Sir J. GRAHAM said, to show the spirit in which
the G,,v,r, merit acorn, t e woold menti n 'hat last year
an tx, OBlvr coosolol tion took place in the if, partment
woh e loch he ww. rotinect,d, and th pre en' time
nut !es. Tan IS per•ons iad be.-n call. d t ark into set, ice
ft um tie re iced l st.—(l-1, ar, hear.) The same pi incip e
was aced on throughout the whole of the public 6:tvice.
Th- nt.rrc
The next vu r vi as for American I, plis,s, 11,112/.
Mt. S. RICE -aid there was a reduction in this vote
I,Nt 3.32/.

For the V teem.- hliAhmenr, 2 2001.
TI r R u,!e •or th D 3 0001.
Lurvities. 2 ti9t4l.
tePoatit Di,a nt t&, Fr.nch ; R. fugee Clergy, &c.,
4 99) /.

In an•ov,r to an oli,l'Vati-T) f; pm Mr. CORBETT,
'Mr. S. RICE rnen'iorod 13, is s, and tWo uu,rt claN,rS
of s the person• «lio .harert .n thi vote.
Mr. I IJAIE said ri ere w,s no such allowane, to the
R. wan Cathy. to Clergy. All clas-rs should support their
(pA 11 rit•ra y

I. COBFITIT w shed to hear th. story of the French
•
R 'ogre eler< y.
Mr. S. tIICE said it wls a story he often told before.
T nt wiaild end with the 14,8 of those
now et,j.led Iwn• fi of it.
COBBET'r ltves would never end whie
ti e y was .or.tl.
1 Le vote Was awe 11 •
. .

For foreign and Other •:.eret service Money, 39,100/.
Air. f 01111ETT iti.d a treat objection to this vote.
This taus tt.e lutal from which tie" pie sloes were
pa;ii. 11 should take ario her opportunity of touching
up, n t e subj. cr.
An HON AIE3.IBER said the only money which came
to t- e kr, wlerl, ~ the Committee appointed on the mo
tion of the 11.. n. G, ntlentan as coming Rom the secret
service move) was 10/
Air. HU.NIE—This vte o'itht to he rerluc,d. For-
me I, it was no mote tliaa 10,0U0/. tor Gieat 13titain.
The vote to as agr.erl to.
F. r rioting Acs of Parham. tit, 8‘,.. 5c.... 56,000/
. 'A r I-X.t.E -aid, that he was glad to Miser.e t: r
im a se saving that had taken p ace in th s de, artinent,
and he was hapi.y t.' have the opportunity of giviffe tto
li., et I went the cr. dit of it. He thoueht that the thanks
of the cottotty wart. 110 e to the G vernment for what they
had dime, :JO if some rtcontmetioations wi ich had beet.
giver. to the Ci,ver mem. w. re acted on, a much errant-
,
. ' "saving might y, take phice. Acts of Padiainent witch
low hetofe co!.t 4,1. a bb.e , wet e now to be had (and di.
• circionst,oce irught to be univer- illy known) at lid a
Moe-. ' 'fl eyrinstquence was, that the cost of d. lireriag
' . thus,' Acts- of Pa, Itainerst to tie 3lagi,trates was mod,
alttnin she'd., By the way, he object-it to the continuaoce
of that asterraol delivering ro,,ie. Hi the- Acts of Paria-
•nietlt to the I%llgiSt/7-ttrs, He w a not satisfied that tlie
were- fait ly- deli, red. Toere was no evidence given ot
iiie a) rival of
_the c:ipit s, and, fur aught that was known,
all that mom). might be thrown away. He thought i
.• shoo d he left to the 31.Qistrates to provide them elve-.
He hoped th r the precedent whirl, hail he, n set, with te
1. reoce to Arts . I Pat liarnent. wool t ntra• he tot oa ed wit'
regard to Parliawentary I' altos, an' that they would b.
sold, for the moo .y thus , btained w. old he a eie it satin
to the putil.c. There was anon er head of t xpense i 0
• which he wished to rail the at enti• n tit the Hiplor. I
was •tiat of ir,ntiog the Journals tit that. House. There
wt te DOW 62 000 volumes in mt.-re, not tine-half of then,
. : • Was elertisert,'and yet the axprose of rept-intim; them
tv, , titre ito oi. less a sum tha., b 9,000/. He hoped th.
Gi.,eroment would not allow the Jo., nal, to he printer'
• bt yowl what was needed for the two Houses, with a snot'
stirp.us, unit that the prartice of supplying ~Itleinbers who
sat hir a single fornig IA in that House would he put an
• 'nil to. 1t these things we' e done they would le .d to a
ream ion of . ne half the expenditure. -
31r. S. RICE expressed his obligations to the Hon.
Atkly for Oh approba.ion i.e h al Fern phased to tostot.
VlSCOttirnie.76\yermu-nt. They had effected a saving i.
.... .:
,ior -,-.llcl.
;M:,.1.".n ois department alum- since they had 1.), en it
Vt.••
'lll-` •t a- s '
t-- .
•'' .5 ••••••7 It-t ..i -'•iligLestions that wutnd enante them to stake
.:::.::,... ~.....,,..r...,„_ ~....
. ' t:
V.1.-",:':,.ci•--:',',C., ‘7-------- .
...„49,

Sir E. KNATCHBULL also gave his thanks to the
Government for the reductions which they had affected in
this department. With respect to what had fal'en from
the H. n hl, mber for Middlesex, he begged to observe, the
Mivistrates were regul,tly suppliad with the Acts of Par-
liament in his part of the country, and he thought they
nould not so speedily be enabled to pot the new laws in
execution if the mode of supplying them should be changed.
The vote was agreed tn.
Far stationery, &c.. 113.998/.
For mint charges, &e., 31,700/.
Mint prosecutions, 8,0001.
1, answer to a n from Mr. HUME,
Mr. S. RICE said the number o t mint prosecutions
this year was 400, the ronviction' 362. This proved a
greater willingness to prosecute for such offences under
the law as now mitigated.
Ti,e vote was agreed tn.
For law charges, 15 000/.

In answer t.. a que-tion fr.•m Sir S. WHALLEY,
Mr. S. RICE ..a,tl that thi•• item vatied a litti• frnm
ye,ir t.• year. 'f he alaries of the Law Officer., however.

Mr. HUME said the amount of variation should be
sated.

The vote was agreed to.
F r the chartie of convicts at I,omP and at 11,rmuda
89.654!. (This vote was less by 1,2001. than that of last
year.
In answer to a question from Mr. HUME,

Mr. G. LAMB slid that the plan of immediately
sending ail convicts out of the coo- try, in place of keeping
them in the hulk. was now in operation. 13,fore another
)e-,r the mot her ;n the yards would he greatly reduced.
Si; J GRAHAM Raid t, ere was already reducti, nof
41)0 0' 500 in the yards anti arrangemen a were making
for 4.11 2,000 more.

M. HUME vt Wird to know how fir the plan wa-
like to suer. eil of c Ming upon the colonists in New
Holland to pay the ex: en-e of convict. out on the condi•
tion of hiving their i.ervices ; and also whether any new
system of punishment was in 'iteration.
Mr. STANLEY said imonrt nt it.f.rmation had been
received on the., points Prim V .tt Dienien's Land, whict.
he would lay before the House.. The system of ptini4l
men' now adi.pted was very 'ever.. Thene were four or
five gradations of it, to any one of which the Judge at
home had the power of sentencing the criminals. There
was one otini‘liment little inteiior in Nevetitv to that of
death. In the pipers he woul I lay on the table the point
a'luded to by the Member for Middlesex was touched
upon. There was some difficulty in the application of
these punishments in the colony, for 'he services of 'rime
c nvicts were so valuable that 'heir dtlinqu...ncies were
winked at •iginer than lose them, and vms they escaped
the more severe puniAment.
Mr. HUAIE was glad to hear this statement from the
Ritter Hon. Genretnan.

The vote o as then agreed to.
The next vcres agreed to were :-
25 0001. for the support of emancipated negroes and
litt,rdteti Africans

1.10,000/. for maintaining convicts at New South
Wales and V?ri Di men's Land, to the 314 March, 1834.
Mr S RICE stated, in reference to this vote, Ilia in
constquence or the improved state of the co'ony of N w
South Wales it was intended by Government henceforth
to ~rtmit !ha' cold y to contract for it. own supplies.
instead of having stores sent out from the Mother edit].
tty. He air icipated from the chant e not only a great
saving to the Mother Counts, but considerable advantage
to V, colony itself.

T., next votes agreed to were:-
8,0,101. to m•-et the expeec 5 incurred under the direc-
tio.. of t. e Coiniiii.sioners of R• cords.

3.646! 13•. 9 I. for the purchase of the p. nano wanted
by King Charles the Second to G neral Faiifax and ano-
ther, and th.•ir hens for ever.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the opinion of
the law offic is of the Crown had been taken upon this
vote. Ile was of opinion that Charles the Second could
not take money out of his (Mr. Hume's) pocket.
Mr. S. RICE explained that this vote had originated
in a Commitn e of which the Hon. Gentleman was a
Memtsr. He had himsr,f reminded him of it a few days
ago win n the Hon. Gentleman said a new light had fallen
upon him....(A laugh.) The fact was that in the Com-
mittee in qtostion it had been agreed to leave out these
pensions hem he civil list, as not appertaining to the per-
conifor. or dignity of the Sovrre•gn.

Air. HUME brill thou.ht the Rift of Charles 11. was
not lonti:g n the present generation. .
Lord ALTHORP said that this pension was granted
out of the herelita'y revenues of the Crown, not out of
the taxes placed upon the people of England. As the
Government were acting under the direction of a Com-
mittee of that Hatit.e, be hoped the House would not
opt 0.41' them. _ _ _

Air. S. RICE contended that this grant was as good as
any vt those ardent grants of land to persons and their

Tie SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that We King
tieing •ei•rd in tee of all lands could alien tte any, and it
he cool(' alienate he could charge any land ; anti in this
ease he had made a rent charge, which King Chat les 11.
had the power to mike binding on hims.lt, his heirs, and
succtse,r, unless tired by statutes. Subs, quently to
the reign of that Sovereicn. Acts had been passed restrain-
ing Sovereigns born Ci,MrOng their successors.
Th.- next vo es ar reed to were—

2 5001. kr the an,,ual ettinperviatinn awarded to the
late Kit g's Stationer for Ireland, Abraham Bradley King,
fur mi-tained by him.
2 000/. to defray the expense of a voyage of discovery to
the Polar regto,n,t.
2,5001. to Mr. Moreton for the invention of his patent

5 0001. for the expenses of Mils to renew turnp,ke roads.
2 140/. fur the Civil Establishment of the Bah•ima
is' to 31st M .reh, 1834.

Mr 1-IUIE ;mold not understand why they were to
be called upon to pay for tl e civil vovernment of our colo-
nies. Those colonies which here unable to support their
own expert es ought to b- ,enr edrift.
Mr. S. RICE said that every possible e,onnmy was
prartised wi h regard to our co!onies generally ; but he
thought i ro•her a broadaster-ion to say that such col,.
ne• es ere unable to pay their own expenses ought to be
sent artritt. thomht the I-lon. Gentleman himself
non d ardly stand by his own doctrine upon refl. wino.

Alt. STANLEY reared that the civil e.tim ites for the
whine of •.t.ir t olon.es .ad t een d•minished since 1830 to
he event of 350,000/. In 1830 th- estim ite wa.
460.000/ ; this yat it was only 130 000/. He though,
.i.is tact ought to he taken as an earnest of economy in
col niat exp-toliture on the part of the Gove,nment.
The n xt votes agned to were 4 2491. 13s. 41. f..r, the
civil eseal,listhment .-f the Bermuda Wm.',
3.220/. for the civil establishment of Prince Elward's
'slant..

12,8611 for the civil ea,ablishmen. of Newfoundland.

311. HUME thought s Newfoundland had now
trot a tr e Go% rib/bent of its own, it ougi t to defray in.
own tic; er.sv..

31r. STANLEY R id be was in hopes that next year
the g tea er pat tur the whole of these expenses would be
re to 'rt. d.

17.393/. 16s. fur the Civil establishment in Western
Afru•a.

Mr H UME complained of the intention rf the Giivern-
went o ttitii raw the British estatlioinit nt from Fer-
nand., Po, which was th.• most ehglble station for the sop.
pret.ion of th. slave trade. He did not understand this
trying hack on the part of the Cove: nment ; and be was
nut aware: of any sufficient evfretice upo,l which the ex-
tiociion of that settle. en, conk he jostitieit.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM etintendeti that the preiont
Govei oment hail done al it could to hasten the final ex-
tit:etion i the •1 ve trade.
Mr. COBBETT maintaintil that the United Stites had
tltrass heeii carrying on the slave tradein spite of their
pt ofessions.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that tl e United States had in
the fir-t insianee consented to make the slave trade a
felony ; end, Irons all he had eve/ known, I ffieially
of
oih.rwi•e, lie had no rea-on whatever to puspect the since-
rty of Th. United States.
Mr. HUME at vocated the peseession of Fernando Po.
Sir J. CTRAHAM maintained that Fernando Po was
••y far more tat.,l to lite and disadvantageous in every le-
spier, t, :in Si. era Leine
Lord PALM ERS lON said that he bad instructed the
Bri tso Alinis er itt 111.drui to negotiate for the possessiou
•it Fein it'd(' Pit.
The vote wa• then carried.
-

Ti e vtoe 01 18 7001. for the civil establishments of the
N rth Ante jean Colonies war then put from the Chair;
and wag edrrio alter a discus-ion, in which Mi. Cobiiett,
I. Ws' boron, Mr. Hume, and aeveial other Hon.
• lerubets dew reined the supporting 'h,. Doablo.hei.
Chureh of Ei gland iu Utiper and Lower Ctoada, where
!he population cont.isted of Dis.tutert or of RAMO;
iin I i

Ti e next vote was that 6,'290/. be granted for the settle-
...l4 t t We-tern Australia.
Mr. HUAI F. maintained that Ministers had pledged that
'hue colony should never cost the country one fa.thine,
an ye, tt /ad be. n cos ly t the country for tt•ree yeaiv.
Mr. STANLEY said that the grata was taken on th.
west kale, awl it the col..ny did not succeed in two ur
tine years it would be withdrawn.

Mr.- WARBURTON said that in the history of colnnies
it aprelred that they were always expeneive in the first
instance.

The vote wag then put and carried.
The next vote was, that a sum not exceeding 20.0001.
he granted to defray the expenses of the establishment of
the Indian Department in Canada. which was carried.
The next vote was for 40,0001. for the Rideau Canal
in Canada.

Mr. HUME asked whether this would be a final grant.
Mr S. RICE said that a further grant of 35,0001.
would be required.
Mr. HU tPE—Would this complete all the works ?
Mr. S. RICE—AII the originally specified works.
Mr. RUTHVEN deprecated the itiea of spending 40
much in Canada which in the course of time must be
separated from Eneland.
Mr. HOWARD entered into the na'ure of the erant,
tnd maintained that the country o uld not he s-parated
.x, ent by the illiberality of the r nelish Goyanment.
The vote was then carried.
The next vote was 14,5671. for the Gtvernors of the
We.t India Colonies.
The yi)te was carried.
The next vote was for 25,0001. for United Education .in
Ireland.

Mr. SHAW maintained tat this grant had completely
failed in its object. Protestants kept from the schoolg,
missals were used in them, and the selections from Scrip-
ture were laid aside. The system did not work as well
as that of the Kddare.street S.ciety. In fact, the grant
was a support of the May nooth College under another

• name.
Mr. O'FERRALL and Mr. O'DWYER supported the
grant.
Sir R. INGLIS had always opposed the principle of
this grant. and n w di..pproved of it upon experience.
Mr. LITTLETON controverti;.t the statements of the
Hanoura, le Memh r for Dwain Uniqer,ity.
TWe vote was then ag.ee.4 to.
On the que-tion that 22.0001. be allowed tit the sup-
port of the F 'nothing Ha.pital,
Mr. S RICE (in answer to an ob.ervation from Mr.
Flume) sa ti that the reducti•,n in the item teas not so eteat
might but he trusted that in future thts
tv-uld he Jut,: r art an ed.

Mr. RUTH YEN tegrett d any npposition shmild have
I.Peo made to t, is grant. H. would Ray roehing more
than pr,te•t against the extinction of thi• C. arity.

The vote w,ol then agreed to.

A sum of 9 609/ wog then voted to tl.e House of In-
door), in Dohlin ; ai-o 650/. to the Hitn•rn ar. Socie.y.
. .

e sums of 1,046/ to the Fete ile Orphan House,
2 '764/. to the M'estuirreland and Lock Hospital, and
15601. to the Lying•in H. pi,al, were agreed to ; the
later &ter a few words from Mr. O'DWYER, Mr. RUTH.-
YEN. Mr. RICE. and Mr. SHAW.
The following ,•,int- were then agreed to :-
1 500/. to Dr. Stevens's Hospital.
3.800/. to the Fever Ho-pita!, Cork-street.
5001 to the Hospital for Incurables.
8 97281. to the Roman Cadtolic C liege of Ireland.
5.320/. to the Royal Dublin S )etety.
300/. to the Royal Irish An dewy.
300/. to the Royal Hibernian Academy.
700/. to the Bard of Charitable a.mations and Be.
quests.
1 500/. to the Belfast Acadenikil Institution.
17 600/. to defray the expense of the Board of Works.
22,000/ to def. ay the sal tri-s of Chief and Under
Secretari.,s of Ireland, Kite's Printer of Ireland, &e.

14.141!. to defray salaries of Officers of the Household
of the Lord Lieut•-nant of befoul.
6,850/. to defrq the Offices Of Vice Treasurer and
Tellers of tie Exchequer.
4 1001. to detray toe cxpen'Se of publishing Proclatna-
&c.

To this vote Mr. O'DWYER objected, inastnurh as t'e
Government adv.rti.etn nts and proclamations were pub-
lished in the Dublin Gazette, the circulation of which
was 36.0001., while the circuletion ipf the Dublin Even-
ing Mull wfv, 450.0001.
Mr. S. RICE said the Government advertised in the
Dublin Gazette in order that they might not be consi
dered as anxious to infloenre the Press.

On the quemtion that a .um of 24,2241. he granted to
pay expenme nn non-conforming and other Ministers,
The vi.te agr, ed to afar a few words from Mr.
RUTHVEt .n'l Mr HUME, Mr. RICE de nd►ng the grant.

On 50 0001. bring proposed to pay expenses of prose.
euti,ms,

Mr. O'DWYER stated that the sum expended for thii
purpose in EnglBnd was much less.

The vote was agreed to.
The following sums were also agreed to :-
12 000/. in aid of the Police D-partment in Dublin.

3.2761. Public Wok in Ireland..
4 0001. to defray expenses of repairs of Dunmore. Har-
bour.

3 000/ to defray townlands' survey of Ireland.
5,0001. to defriy, to the 31st March, 1834, expenses of-
new roads in G.lway. . - •
1.6001. to repay to Mr. Orpen amount paid to Conso,
lidared Fund, for intended purchase of one of Six Clei Its
in Dublin.
2.6301. to complete external works and internal painting
of Whi-eltall Chapel.
15,300/ to defray expense of Commission to inquire
into the state of Municipal Corporations in Great Britain
and Ireland.
10,0001. to defray. till the 31st of March, 1834, the
expenses of certain lighthouses.
Lord ALTHORP rose to make a new proposition,
which wis to the effect that 20.0001. be granted for the
I►ui'ding of new schools, with a view to promote a system
education through ti.is country. This money to be left
at the disposal of the Treasury. He made this sugge.!inn
because private sur•scriptions were Itequentiy ot nit avail
born want of buil .ings for schno's. It was proposed to
take the recoarmendations of the two Societies of the
Na hind Schools and of the Lancasterian Schools.
Mr. YOUNG stated !bat Mr. Lancasri r, the founder of
the Lancasterian system. was now pining in exile in India,
and he thought that pecuniary assistance, if granted to
him, would refl-ct great credit on that House.
Sir R. INGLIS objec•ed to the Noble Lord bringing
forward such a proposition at two o'clock in the morning,.
and at the end of the session.
Mr. HUME could not approve of this plan till a sl•stern
of education should be established in every parish in the
country.
Mr. R. POTTER begged the Noble Lord not to
grant any of the public motley fur protnot,ng education,
until the funds which hail been heque tired for that
purpose were made available. That they are of immense
amount will at once be seen by a reference to the report
of the )))) ers who were appointed to inquire Into
tire public charities of the county. 7n Manchester there
is no .e•s a sum than 6.0001. annually I,.tt to two public
whim's, for the education of boys ; and the Hous.:will not
he a little astonished at bearine that only atrial./
250 boys rec ive gratuiti.us instruction from, the two
public schools--whereas 7,000 might rec.ive suitemte
education. In many of the other l rrge towns fund.
have been provide f, hut, in general, they are grolsly
mismanaged or perv- rted from th,•ir original purpose. It
is high time th t a vigino s 'flat should he made to
o aka the various, and in many iu•tances, noble br ques s
ivailable for the bent fit of the people, more particularly of
the work og cla.•es. Until an attempt ot this kind was
nuvi«, t....•nuht not. ennment tsr µrant-any trtonry.

Lord ALTHI)111) acid at pretient- this trita an a-
pe' imenr.
Mr. POTTER could not approve of the plan till the
country was put in posNession of the means of the vat ioua
iO ittes.

A ter t...Kle 11H-tiler conversation, the vote was agreed to.
A sum of 5'7,227/ 15.. fir miscellaneous charges
in Scotland o as titer proposed and net, erl to,
The CHAIRMAN then reported the resolutions to the
House; and the t epllrt Wilt. orti.•re.i to be received this day.
FALTORIES REGULATION BILi..
This Bib was read a third time and' p caked, with amend-
ments, and a el ti.e to tntirle the la, ourers in lacturie;. to
Endplays on G.ord Friday and Christmas Dry.
THE sIX ACTS.
Mr. HUNIE, in inliving. for leave to bring in a Bill for
the tersl of the Art 60 Geo. 111. cap 10, commonly
the Six Acts, mail that he would not detain the
House at that late hour by bringing torward any argu
'wilts in favour of the in asuie. He would refer 1-lot'.
11i-tubers to the speeches Of the Members of the Govern-
7nuii He the Six Acts, for better arguments titan he
(
hi,' that, late as the period of .he
e,sioo was, the Noble Lord wow(' not object to his bring
reK in
this Bid. He would therefore simply move that
e,t
le ve he given to iling in a Bill for the repeal of the
Art 60 Geo. 111.
L. 1,1 AI.TIIOIIP said that it would ;
he impossible, at
that late period of the session, that any Bull on this subject
c-uld pass into law. He would therefore consider it Ins
tuts to . pii • ose the motion, aithough tie, as wall as the
Hon. Aie oilier, felt th ,t there were several poirrs in those
Acts wirier) were oljectionahle. He thought the better
course to papare would be to brine in a Bill to anieuri, and
:tit to repeal those Acts; fur although th,re were many
uf them which were objectionable, there were others
vhich ought to be continued. He Lhought it proper that
be subject should be taken into earooderation, and he
wouhl take it into corsiderrtion during the 'recess'..:-
beat)
(Hear, --iu older that he might be able to bring in

a Bill at the commencement of the next session to amend
the Act.—(Hear,' hear.) He hoped, therefore, that
the Ron. Member would not persevere in his motion,
as he (Lord Althorp) considered it his duty, as well
as his own opinion, that a change ought to be rn4de.
Mr. HU%IE, after what had fallen from the Noble
Lord, would not press his motion. But he hoped the
Noble Lord would give directions that those conductine
the prosecutions under the Act would be merciful in the
meantime. Those prosecutions had created a state of ex-
citement which could not easily he allayed.
Lord ALTHORP did hope that the prosecutions
should he conducted mercifully, but lie did not know how
he could do anything towards that end. He w.uld take
the opportunity of reading a. return, which he had for-
merly moved for, of the number of persons in prison for
offences against the S amp Laws, and the number of pro
secutions in.t,ttred by directions of the Commissioners of
Stamps. The number of persons in prison at present
was one ; and the number of prosecutions at the instance
of the Con-im;ss•oners, since 1831. twenty-one.—( Hoar.)
Mr. HUME tilted how it Caine, then, that 400 were in
prison for such ofroces?

Lord 4LTHORP ;said that it was at the instance of
private informers. There wa, a bad principle in the stamp
laws, which gave every informer a right to a guinea, on
Conviction of every off-rider; and this caused the multi-
plicity of pros cations at the instance of private persons.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS was sorry to hear what had
fallen from the Noble Lord. 7 here w-re several improper
publications which ought not to he allowed to escape.
Lord ALTIIORP said the Hon. Baronet had mistaken
him. His plan of amendment r.garded the offences
against the stamp l iws.only, and was not meaet to pro-
tect improper publications He thought it would be im
pssihie to stop prosecutions. That would be unfair to
the proprietors of newspapers which paid the stamp duties.
Mr. HUME sail, the only remedy for that would be to
repeal the *I atop,duty on newspapers.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HU E th.ti withdrew his motion.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE..

Lord MORPETH mov.-d that orders of the day should
have precedence of motions on every day during the re•
mdinder of the ft.-ssion.

Mr. HUME thought that this would he unfair to those
wh had pthtponed motions in older to forward the public
bu-iness.

After a few words from Lord MORPETH, the motion
wa4 tereed to.

The other orders of the day were then dispoqed of, and
the House adjourned at a quarter paqt three o'clock.

THE MIGU,LITES.