The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-06 00:00:00

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person who wished to know how well this gentleman hal
earned his pension to the trial of the late Queen.
" The Earl of Cavan has a regiment, and is a Governor
besides. He has 2261. a year.
" The Baroness Cathcart, wife of Lord Cathcart (he
is Colonel of the `2d Regiment of Life Guards, 1,8001. per
annum ; and a retiring pension, from having been Am-
bassador and Governor of Hull), enjoys a pension.
" Dowager Lady Clare has 7801., the widow of the rich
Ex-Chancellor.
" The Marchioness of Carmarthen, 7001. Her husband
is heir to the Dukedom of Leeds. _

" Marianna Cockburn, sister to Viscount Hereford,
115/. 19s. 6d. ; is the wife of Sir James Cockburn, who
has 1,000/. per annum, as Inspector of the Marines. She
and her four sisters had pensions granted of 115/. 19s. 6d.,
when young, but it never was contemplated that on their
marriage these pensions should continue. This was a case
which came within the principle he had laid down, that
pensions should be superseded on the success of the re-
ceivers of them in other departments. ( A laugh.)
" Juliana Maria Eyre, is another sister, a widow, with
a good jointure of 600/. a year.
" Georgiana Maria Gwynne, another sister :
" Charlotte Wellington, another sister ; and
" Catherine Eliza Watkins, the fifth married sister,
lately married (from her widowhood) to R. Stretton,
Esq., High Sheriff this year for Breconshire ; her former
husband left her 2,0001. a-year jointure.
Lord Elphinstone has 138/. ; also 276/. 10s., and
again 1381.
" Eliza Makenzie and Ruth Elphinstone, 2761. 10s.
•' The Eden family have 407/. per annum.
" Mary Gwynne, the widow of General Gwynne, has a
pension ; she besides receives 400/. pension.
" The Earl of Howe is too wealthy a nobleman to re-
ceive 276/. per annum. This is too bad.'
" Viscount Hereford receives 115/. 195. 6d., which
was granted to him at the same time similar annuities
were granted to his five sisters. What makes this case
most glaring► is, that he inherits also his father's pension of
467/. He has two seats in Wales, Fregoyd and Ancribba;
and lately bought of the crown a manor adjoining the
town of Hay, thereby extending his own grouse manors.
" Thomas Knox Holmes (Hear, hear), 500/." This
was the only case in which the paper he was reading from
stated the consideration for which the pension was granted.
It was stated to be given to Mr. Holmes, as the son of the
whipper-in of the late Administration (A laugh) ; and he
(Mr. Harvey) could honestly say, that a more faithful
whipper-in Government never had. (A laugh. )
" Sir Herbert Taylor is the Colonel of the 85th Regi-
ment, notwithstanding he has 930/. pension.
" Sir William Johnstone 714/. per annum : a rich
baronet.

" Lieutenant-General Knollis, 4001. per annum : he re-
ceives besides a Lieutenant-General's pay, and is also Go-
vernor of Limerick." (A member on the Treasury
Bench said, "He is dead.") " That," rejoined Mr.
Harvey, " is the best thing that can be said of him." (A
laugh. )
" The Rev. William Kuper, 4001. 155.: a Chaplain to
the German Chapel.
" Dame Fanny Lushington, 3501. per annum, and the
Hon. Ann Lushington, 624/. per annum, and her four
children. A governorship in India ought to satisfy the
Lushington family, who have enjoyed good situations for
so many years.
George Leigh, and Mary his wife, 700/. ; he was a
personal friend of the late King, and commanded the 10th
Light Dragoons. This is a pension extraordinaire.
" The Earl of Minto, an ambassador, 9241.

" Lady Louisa Murray." Of this lady he would say
nothing, because her husband had been successful in ano-
ther place. (Cheers and laughter.)
" Lord Montford, 467/. ; ditto, 155 i.

" Lord Strangford condescended to take a pension of
85/. (Hear, hear.) He has the retiring pension of an
ambassador, 2,000/. per annum ; Maria Dowager Strang-
ford has a pension of 233/. ; ditto, 266/.
"' Lady Ann Cullinc, Smith, 6001., sister to the Duke
of Wellington ; her husband a rich man. •
" Sir Simeon Stuart, 200/. ; a rich baronet, who never
performed any public service.
" Lieutenant-Colonel Meyrick Shaw, 500/. ; ditto, 499/.
He was private secretary to the Marquis Wellesley in India,
and also in Ireland. One pension would be adequate.
He is now employed again.
" The Earl of Tyrconnel, 600/. ; ditto, 445/. He mar-
ried Miss Crow, of Kiplin Park, Yorkshire, a very rich
heiress. (Hear. )
" Thomas Lord Walsingham, a dignitary of Winchester
Cathedral ; he has 636/. per annum.
" Lady Matilda Wynyard, 467/. ; the wife of General
Wynyrd.
" Sair F. Watson, 936/.
" Emily Marchioness of Westmeath, sister of the Mar-
quis of Salisbury, and wife of the. Marquis of Westmeath ;
cannot expect to be supported by the public. She has
386/. per annum.
" The Rev. Alexander Sterkey, the Swiss Minister,
400/. 155."

Now he was quite aware that be should find he, in giving
these instances, had let loose a whole pack of eulogists.
If comments in justification were made on each particular
case, they would probably have a debate as long as was that
celebrated one which had so recently closed. But it would
do good. Such, then, was the list, in the protection
of which, in all its integrity—in defence of which,
as of something inscrutable, the Government, they were
told, was prepared to stake its very existence. Even
these pensions—even this provision for those who had no
claim to it, Government was determined to perpetuate,
though, by so doing, it perpetuated its own notoriety.
He should be sorry, he must confess, were the threat-
ened consequences to arrive; but he thought he
might be excused in saying, he hoped that, on this
occasion, the cry would be found to have lost much
of its echo. It had been repeated so often—this, he be-
lieved, was the fourth time—that he felt himself warranted
in hazarding such a suggestion. There was the Malt Bill.
The house would recollect what took place with reference
to that. Then, when this matter was under discussion
before, the noble lord told them that, if they did not sanc-
tion his views as regarded the civil list, he should consider
that they would pass a direct censure on his Majesty's Go-
vernment. In short, it always happened, when the house
appeared to be resolved to establish a character for eco-
nomy, that the noble lord addressed them something to
this effect :—" If you are determined to run before us,
instead of after us—if you are not prepared to adopt our
measures—we will throw the whole country into a di-
lemma. We combine all the elements out of which an
administration ean be formed—we, the saviours of the
country." (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Why, was there
ever before presented anything so ridiculous? If all who
were in the government—if all who ever had been, or
would be in the government, or who thought they ought
to be—if all in that house were swept away, this great
country had in it a sufficient number of master-minds
to throw up a power that would proclaim their in-
significance. He hoped and believed that this parlia-
ment was not the best the country was to have. (Hear. )
This was chosen as a beginning ; in future parliaments
they would see a great improvement. As was said by the
hon. member for Carlisle the other night, they were but
" the awkward squad of reform." It was composed of hon.
gentlemen who were chosen, rather because they were
known as having been the agitators of provinces—" at
least (said Mr.llarvey) many of us who are the new mem-
bers were" (A laugh), than for any knowledge that we
were believed to be possessed of in the science of govern-
ment, or in those great principles of society on which de-
pended the greatness and happiness of nations. We had
been mixed up (continued the hon. and learned gentle-
man) with parish matters and business of mere local im-
portance, and we thought ourselves, and were thought
statesmen ; but, no doubt, in after times the people will
select philosophers of deep penetration, who will act on
the principles laid down by Locke in his Essay on Go-
vernment, as " intelligible utility." Those who stood
on this ground would be deemed the fit men ; " utility"
would be the test, whatever else were thrown aside, whe-
ther they found it in courts, peers, or parliaments. Go-
vernment might tell them its day was come, but he would
bid them take comfort. As Charles 11. was on one occasion
taking his walk up Constitution-hill, he was crossed by James
of York, who was in his carriage. James, addressing Charles,
asked him if he thought it was prudent to walk abroad in
those turbulent times ? Charles replied, " Never fear ;
there is no danger of my life, so long as the people know
who will be my successor." (Great laughter, and cheers.)
The present government, with reference to the late go-
vernment, appeared to act according to the scriptural
instruction, " If your enemy smite you, turn the other
cheek." They appeared to say—Think as meanly as you
like of us, we will support 'you; we will never be un-
grateful ; we will support the prerogative, we have uni-
formly maintained that doctrine ; we will support the
pension list. The civil list having been voted, they were
told that they must not touch that : but at the expiration
of the reign they might examine it ; that was comfort for
them. He had occupied much more of the time of the house
than he intended ; whether he had succeeded in making
the object of his motion intelligible, it was not for him to
determine. He could not understand how any hon.
member who had supported his former motion could opp9se
the present ; nor, till the division came and informed him
to the contrary, would he believe it possible for any
honourable gentleman to pursue such a course. On
the other hand, he could conceive that many
who had opposed the former motion would be
found countenancing this. With regard to the former mo-
tion, he was asked, " would he issue the Speake7's war-
rant to take people before a committee of that description;
would he drag before that committee all that was venera-
ble in years, all that was attractive in beauty? Would he
summon delicate shadowy forms, and drive them to the ne-
cessity of asking for No. 13, to undergo an inquiry as
searching and indecent as any that could be suggested by
minds indecent enough to conceive such a proposition ?"
And these objections were obviated by the present motion,
for an address to his Majesty. He was told that no doubt
a word from the King would be sufficient to induce the
parties to renounce their claim, more particularly as his
Majesty would be acting under the advice of the govern-
ment. Thus the consequence could hardly fail to he this
—ministers would soon find that they had an available
fund. This was the sort of language used to him with re-
spect to his former motion, which received the support of

118. He hoped, then, that the motion he now mad'
would be much more successful. They should recollect
that, as long as they permitted any person unworthy of
such distinction to be on the pension list, they were exclu-
ding some person whose merit could not, perhaps,
be surpassed—who could not be enriched in any
other way (Hear, hear, hear) who possibly had car-
ried our trophies of victory to the extreme parts of the
earth—who might have sustained the imperishable glory
of our flag on the sea—or who had explored the profound
depths of science, and enlarged the boundary of human
happiness. (Cheers.) There were some men unknown
to fortune, and known only to fame, who had given up to
their country all that was dear to them—the reaping the
entire benefit of their exertions. There were such men
as those who were not to be seen in Courts. There was
something so ennobling in real worth, that commonly the
possessors of it sought no sort of return. They should
draw these men forth, and throw around them the comfort
they might and ought to obtain from the pension fund.
He could mention many now in misery whose greatness
might be read in the papers, that would give an immorta-
lity to their names. These eminent and deserving indivi-
duals would be established in comfort, and free to exercise
their best energies, if they had bestowed on them but one-
tenth part of the wealth that was unworthily bestowed
elsewhere. He had been told that a Divan had been held
very lately in Downing-street, partaking of a political
character, at which, as Wyndham had said, " the
people had nothing to do with the laws but to obey
them ;" it had been insinuated that members had no-
thing to do with their constituents but to despise them.
( Cries of " No.") He had heard gentlemen were told that
they were here a deliberative assembly, not as delegates
(Cries of " Hear, hear,"), and had a duty to perform supe-
rior to the instructions of their constituents. Was there a
man who owed his seat in that house to the expression of
the popular sentiment who had not, in his address, written,
or oral, or both, declared his opposition to the pension list?
(Cheering.) All those gentlemen were solemnly pledged
'to those who, in their confidence, had returned them to
this house to demand a rigid investigation into this list;
it was their first duty. They had been promised that the
pension list should be brought under something like a ge-
neral-rule--that the prerogative of the Crown was to be
something curtailed—to secure that pensions should be be-
stowed only as a reward for eminent services. The
noble lord who, in bringing forward his, celebrated
scheme for the civil list, had engaged that the pensions
should be open to inquiry, might have gone still further ;
he might have declared that it was the duty of
the representatives of the people to see that not
a pension was bestowed for personal or political
prostitution. He should be much mortified if his
motion were defeated. Nor would his mortification
arise from the mere ihct of his being its advocate, but from
his sense that he, in common with other hon. gentlemen,
had a solemn pledge to redeem. He had no factious feel-
ing to indulge. No man in this house, looking to his
means, had sacrificed more than he had in past times; and
he said now that whatever personal feeling he had to some
members of the Government, no man was more determined
or disposed to give them his strenuous support in every
measure that, in his conscience, he believed calculated to
advance the happiness of his country. He had uttered
those sentiments when the present Ministers were in oppo-
sition ; they were not, therefore, taken up for the occasion.
Other men might forfeit their pledges, he would adhere to
his own, and he was mistaken if they would not prevail.
If any other mode could be suggested—if any new reading
could be given to his motion that would render it more ac-
ceptable, he was not so wedded to it that he would consent
to no substitution. All he sought, all he asked, in the
name of the people of this country, was, that the house
would sympathise with their wants—that it would not trifle
with their means. (Great cheering.) The hon. gentle-
man concluded with his motion, which was to the effect
stated above.

Lord ALTHORP had opposed the former motion of the
hon. and learned gentleman, and he had great objections to
the present one. (Cheers.) It appeared to him that the
proposition of the hon. and learned gentleman was one
which it was utterly impossible that any gentleman could
accede to. The proposition was to call on this house to
address his Majesty to take away those pensions which his
Majesty had confirmed. They were asked to call on the
King to do that which no man of gentlemanlike feeling
would consent to do, viz., to deprive persons of the pensions
which he himself had bestowed. The hon. and learned
gentleman had alluded to a speech which he (Lord Althorp)
delivered on a former occasion in relation to this subject.
He said then what he was ready to maintain now, which
was, that he did think that the minister who recommended
a pension was responsible for such recommendation, and he
thought it was perfectly justifiable to call for the list, in
1 case any improper grant had been made. The hon. and
learned gentleman went on-to say, that when he (Lord A.)
proposed the civil list, he at that time stated that the pen-
sion list should be open to inquiry ; certainly he did so ;
but that was only till the list was finally settled. He, at
the period referred to, had to ask of the house a vote on
credit ; it was then necessary for the house to make ad-
,,ances from quarter to quarter. Ultimately, however,
they did go into the questicn; and the house decided that
the pensions should be charged on the consolidated fund.
When they did so, it never entered into his head that
this pension list would be opened again. He did feel
that persons on the pension list had a right established
by custom to be continued on it ; and the present govern-
ment, taking this view, had, when they came into office,
recommended that they should be. If the house agreed
to the motion, if they agreed to address his Majesty to
take the pensions away, they would agree to what was un-
just. The hon. and learned gentleman seemed to expect
hon. gentlemen to get up to defend each individual grant ;
but he (Lord Althorp) did not intend to do any such
thing. He did not hold himself responsible for the acts
of former governments. (Cheers.) The first minister of
the crown was, he admitted, responsible for the pensions
having been retained ; but he , had acted in concurrence
with what had been the practice at the commencement of
every reign since the revolution. King William continued
the pensions granted by James 11. The present motion,
then, of the hon. and learned gentleman he considered
more objectionable than his proposition for an inquiry be-
fore a committee of the house. The hon. and learned gen-
tleman had alluded to an expression made use of by the
Right Hon. Secretary of the Treasury, who had spoken
of the desired inquiry as a " disgusting examination." His
right hon. friend did not allude to the cases to be investi-
gated, but to the feeling which he supposed everyone would
entertain, who of necessity might be engaged in the exa-
mination. He (Lord Althorp) thought it could not fail to
be a " disgusting inquiry" to any gentleman who took a
part in it. (Hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman had
argued this as a popular topic. He (Lord Althorp) admit-
ted that it was so. (Hear.) He was quite aware that per-
sons held pensions who had other public employment, and
he was ready to admit that when persons had large pro-
perty, " at least (said his lordship, breaking off suddenly),
I am sure that if I were in that situation, I would not
take the pension." (Great cheering for a considerable
time.) He admitted that this was a topic which influenced
considerably popular feeling ; but this was quite beside
the question as to the propriety of their taking away that
from men to which in their judgment they had a right, the
law having established that right. This did not appear to
him to be a question requiring any length of argument. It
was simply this—would they deprive those who had a legal
right to the pensions of that right by a vote of this house?
and if they would do that, would they employ, as a medium
of doing it, the King who had conferred the grants ?
(Cheering.) The question lay in a narrow compass, and
it was quite impossible for him to sanction such a proposi-
tion. (Cheers. )
Mr. STRUT T denied that the political parliament to
which the hon. and learned gentleman had alluded, had
sat in Downing-street. He (Mr. Strutt) admitted that it
was necessary for the honour of the house, and for the
satisfaction of the country, that a full inquiry should take
place into the pension list. (Cheers.) When it was re-
collected that the first minister of the crown had declared
that many of the pensions on the list ought never to have
been granted, he thought nothing was likely to satisfy the
country short of a full, strict, and impartial inquiry. But
the inquiry he should propose would be different from that
which had been proposed by the hon. and learned gentle-
man, notonly in its mode, but also in its object. The hon. and
learned gentleman proposed that this house should address
the crown, praying an inquiry into these pensions. He (Mr.
Strutt) concurred with the noble lord in his statement that
this course would be disrespectful towards the Crown. The
task must be an invidious one, and they had the full means
of instituting such an inquiry within themselves. Ile
had, however, a graver objection to the motion of the
hon. and learned gentleman. He objected to it, because
its object was to take away the pensions from those at
present enjoying them. He had voted for the motion of
the hon. and learned gentleman in February last, and he,
nevertheless, could conscientiously oppose himself to the
present motion. Indeed nothing on earth should induce
him to support it. He disagreed with the motion of Feb-
ruary to a certain extent—he disapproved of the avowed
object, which was to take the pensions away ; but the first
step being inquiry, he thought lie might vote for that, re-
serving to himself the right to deal with any future branch
of the motion as he thought proper. lie must contend
that the custom had been to
hard
for the life of the
party. Not a single instance had been quoted by the hon.
and learned gentleman, in which it had not been so ; if
any such existed, it could not be supposed he would not
have brought them forward. Not only on changes of go-
vernment had the pensions been continued, but on changes
of dynasty also, as had been shown by the noble lord-
What right, then, had they to avail themselves of a flaw?
(No, no.) He was not defending the abuses of the pen-
sion list. (Cheers.) He wished the law had not allowed
any pensions to be granted, except for services ; but he felt
that the honour of the country was pledged not to discontinue
the grants, and that those who received them had a moral
claim. He would go farther than the government went on
this occasion ; in his opinion the parties receiving the
grants had a vested interest in them. (Oh, oh.) Though
he could not support the motion, he thought the house
ought to institute an inquiry. He should, therefore, move
as an amendment, that they should pursue the constitu-
tional method of appointing a select committee of this
house. His object would not be to deprive • any of the
present holders of their pensions, but he hoped good would
result. If the cases were investigated, and impropriety,

where any existed, were exposed, it would have the effe t '
of preventing the recurrence of such acts. The time must
• necessarily come, in the course of events, when the civil
j list should be revised by the house. Inquiry must follow
upon this revision ; but surely it would be more wise of the
house to anticipate that event by an inquiry, which could,
be far better pursued at the present time than in the corn-
mencement of a new reign. (Hear, hear.) He himself
remembered and was present at such a revision of the civil
list as he alluded to, but it then passed without inquiry ;
but when the civil list would again come under the revision
of the house, it might be urged that the pension list should
specify the particular services performed; and if any grants
were made by his Majesty on other grounds, they should
come out of the privy purse. If the pension list were to
continue, care should be taken to have it set round with
proper checks and guards. It might be objected by those
opposed to investigation, that possibly painful disclosures
might be made by the inquiry. The object of the inquiry
was not to give pain, but to secure the list from
future abuses ; and if, by the detection of abuse, pain were
inflicted, it would be no injustice done to the individual,
who, in such an event, must form part of the abuse
( Hear, hear.) It might and had been also objected, that if
the inquiry were agreed to, many people would surrender
their pensions. If such were the case, the very act of
surrender would be a sort of prima facie evidence of abuse.
as far as they were concerned. (Hear, hear.) It might be
objected that agreeing to the inquiry would be consi-
dered as expressing an opinion ; but this was one which
was not of any weight. When the report of the com-
mittee was laid before them, the house would be compe-
tent to adopt what measures they pleased upon it. In
acting as he did, he might subject himself to obloquy by not
supporting the proposition of the hon. member for Col-
chester, but he felt himself supported in the conviction
that his own proposition would be more useful. It was on
these grounds that he would move for the appointment of
a select committee to inquire into the expenditure charged
on the Civil List and the Consolidated Fund, in order to
ascertain the nature and extent of any abuses which may
exist, with a view to give full effect to the resolutions of
the house, passed on the 18th of February last.
Mr. ROMILLY cordially supported the amendment.
Lord AL THORP, though he admitted that there was a
distinction between the original motion and the amend-
ment—inasmuch as the proposition of the hon. monber
for Colchester would go to take away the pensions--still
considered them both objectionable. One of the grounds
on which the inquiry was sought, was the excitement of
the public mind with regard to this question of the Pension
List ; and it had been urged that the object was not to de-
prive the holders of pensions of what they received. It
was said that the inquiry alone would satisfy the public.
They assumed too much who said this, though the hon.
member for Derby insisted that the exhibition of the
gross abuse was all that was required. In his (Lord Al-
thorp's) opinion, such a result would not be satisfac-
tory; nor did he see the advantage which would
follow the inquiry, if the house would call to its
recollection who they were who advised the Crown
when the grants complained of were made. As to what
had been urged with regard to the argument of pre-
venting abuse in future, what was said on that head
had been by anticipation replied to by the resolution passed
on the 18th of February, by which a distinct principle was
acknowledged, andwhich was not admitted in former times.
Either as to the past or the future, the inquiry would be
productive of no benefit. If the house inquired into the
past, with a view to censure the proceedings, they should
pass censure on the dead, as the grants were made on the
recommendation of persons now in the grave. (Hear. )
Besides the inutility of the inquiry, there was another ob-
jection which, though it had been ridiculed by the hon.
member for Colchester, must still have its weight, and
that was that the investigation would be calculated to
wound the feelings as well of those who conducted as of
those who were the objects of the inquiry. For these rea-
sons, then, the inutility of the inquiry, and the unnecessary
pain it would occasion to individuals, he should, notwith-
standing the obloquy which might attach out of doors both
to himself and those who went with him on the question,
feel himself bound in the exercise of his duty to vote against
both the motion and the amendment.

Mr. HUME regretted that ministers exhibited an in-
clination to oppose all inquiry on this subject. The ground
upon which the house should proceed in this matter was,
whether services had been given for the rewards thus
granted. (Hear, hear.) It would be very desirable that
the house should proceed upon a principle such as this,
for it would dignify a list to which now no other idea than
one of disgrace was attached. It was the duty of the house
to purge and clear the list from such obloquy. It was not
merely the saving which should be looked to, but they
should also endeavour to satisfy those who paid the taxes,
by showing them that the produce of their sweat and toil
was not carelessly and lavishly bestowed on unworthy ob-
jects. (Cheers.) The motion negatived in February,
and the amendment now b fore the house, were nearly the
same, and the amendment was better than the motion
which it was intended to supersede. If, on inquiry, shame-
ful abuses were discovered, did they imagine the people
would be satisfied if these abuses were not corrected?
Where grants were properly made the people would not
object to them ; they would not object to any founded on
the principle laid down in the resolutions of the 18th
of February ; but whilst they beheld the misery which
was the consequence of taxation and at the same time
looked upon those who were enjoying the fruits of
their labour without any service returned, they never
would consent to that which was a disgrace to the house
to permit. ( Hear, hear.) He, would ask the noble
lord (Althorp) whether, though one of the advisers of
the Crown in making these grants was dead, others were
not living on whom the responsibility should rest ?
Hitherto responsibility was only a name. It henceforward
would be something more, and it was the duty of a re-
formed House of Commons to teach ministers what they
had to expect if they violated their oaths of office, by
abusing the trust reposed in them by their monarch, and
betraying the confidence of the people. It was peculiarly
the duty of the house to purify this list, if only for the en-
couragement of real merit, which now, in consequence of
the obloquy attached to it, never contemplated it as a
source of reward. The noble lord admitted that unwor-
thy persons were to be found upon the list, to whom pen-
sions had been improperly granted. Then how could he
oppose the inquiry? Let it be seen who had recommended
these persons, and let the adviser meet the merited punish-
ment. It was not so much the money as the principle in-
volved in the question which caused the public excitement.
He admitted that with regard to the pension list th-e acts
and advice of the present ministry were calculated to bear
inquiry ; but it certainly was extraordinary that by stifling
the call for inquiry they should cloak the misdeeds of
others. ( Hear, hear.) After what•had been said by the
honourable member for Colchester, was there a person
in that house who could vote on the forthcoming
question of the poor laws, and yet refuse to investigate the
question now before the house? For himself, he was ready
to support either the original motion or the amendment,or
both. Indeed he did not care which. (A laugh.) He
would beg to state, for the information of hon. gentle-
men,
who did not seem aware of it, that he could vote
for both.

Mr. JERVIS would support the original motion,
though there were many members of his family who drew
large sums from the list. The question was, whether his
Majesty should not be requested to revise the list? and it
was, in his mind, a most reasonable one. Not the King,
but his advisers, were responsible for the exercise of this
portion of the royal prerogative ; the course proposed was
with a view to ascertain whether he had been misled by his
advisers, and it was a course both constitutional and mo-
narchical. (Hear.) It had been argued that the grants
thus made were guaranteed by acts of parliament, and
could not be revised. The noble lord (Althorp) had sub-
mitted the power of revising them, and he (Mr. Jervis)
would read the passage of the speech. ( Here the hon.
member read an extract from a speech spoken, as we un-
derstood, in 1823.) The hon. member went on to sup-
port the original motion, which he preferred to the amend-
ment, as that, according to what was said by the hon.
inquiry,
upon who moved it, would end in empty
upon which, if nothing followed, the public would not be
satisfied. (Cheers.) Every farthing which had been un-
deservedly granted, and wrung from the hand ofindustry,
should be resumed. (Hear.) He would therefore beg
of the hon. member for Colchester to press on his motion,
nor rest satisfied until inquiry had been made into every
item of the list. (Hear.) He would at the same time
top them,
r e ssu theby
governmentwithdrawing the
their
er opportunity
opposition, nmovf heldwinn
winning
golden opinions from the public. Should they not do so,
it would only confirm him (Mr. Jervis) and those who
acted with him, that nothing could be got from the pre-
sent ministry, and that they might expect more from the
opposite and more violent Tory party. (A laugh.) He
said " more violent Tories," because he believed the pre-
sent Government to be actuated by Tory principles.
(Cheers.) They had already almost alienated public
opinion, and would soon be distrusted by all.
Mr. BYNG professed himself determined to vote de-
cidedly against the motion of the member for Colchester,
and wondered that such a difference of opinion could be
raised on a question so simple. his Majesty, at the com-
mencement of his reign, had made a compact concerning
this list, in consequence of complaints of abuse, and he
entered into the contract on an understanding that the
grants made by his father and brother should remain un-
touched. The bargain was a most advantageous one to
the country ; but even were it not, having been once
enteredinto, the compact should not be -violated. He
himself did think that his former vote would have sub-
jected him to the displeasure of his constituency, but when
he met them he never was afraid of stating the motive of
that vote ; and he was happy to add, that he never met
one of those constituents, who, when the case was thus
put, did not express his satisfaction. Much as had been
said on the subject of pensions, the pecuniary saving to be
derived even from their total suppression would be trifling.
Was it for this paltry grant that it was sought to control
his Majesty in the exercise of his Royal bounty, and that
too in violation of a solemn compact? Was it for this that
the people of this country were to interfere between the
crown and those whose high birth had not exempted them
from the casualties and misfortunes of life ? No, the
people of this country were a generous people, and on their
generosity and judgment he confidently relied. (The hon.

gentleman, who was generally inaudible, sat down amidst
loud cheers. )
Mr. HAWKINS must protest against the motion of
the hon. member for Colchester, as a motion which did not
deal fairly either with his Majesty, his ministers, or the
objects of his bounty. (Hear.) He protested against
calling on the King to take any part in so invidious an act
as that of depriving the possessors of pensions of the means
which had been conferred upon them by his predecessors.
These pensions were not granted during the present
reign: his Majesty had no control over their original
grant ; he had no means of ascertaining whether their pos-
sessors were meritorious or not; and they had therefore no
right to call on his Majesty to undertake the odious and
disagreeable office of deciding who should retain or who
resign their pensions. (Hear.) If they, the Commons of
e eßa
n(d
dnt
England, thought it their duty to recall any of those
under-
takepen-
btwheasante a
nfit
suchhe taskieoaid iatooumtstio:hdedeeimrpotusyfeblpioicebo.sc.;
:ions, let them have the courage and manliness to
saoe
11:1)1Hdr
ee,e,
dowed irnhdyo
wouldnt‘vbo
iatsths
baei
wished
et
get
those, nobody
hear.
aiihve
to see it executed, should at least do it themselves. Do
not let them seek to gain the popularity resulting from
making such a demand, and leave to others the odium and
responsibility of enforcing it. (Hear, hear.) But it had
been suggested in the course of the debate, that this was
a measure which could not fix any personal odium on the
Crown ; that the address was a mere matter of form ; and
that, if complied with, the process of execution would be
by a commission. But his objection was, to mixing up
the name of the King in any way with the' question.
And he would say, further, that his objection to
calling upon the King was only greater than his
objection to calling on his ministers. He would not ad-
vert to the nature of the grants, nor to the arrangements
by which they were provided for in 1831. They might
quibble as they pleased on the words " during pleasure ;"
they might vary the charges as they pleased on settlements
on the civil list, and settlements on the consolidated fund
(Hear)—the plain
fact was, that acts of Parliament thus
solemnly and deliberately passed by the three estates of
the realm, gave and granted to these individuals respec-
tively the amount of those pensions at least during the
life-time of the present sovereign. (Hear, hear, and No. )
Would hon. members deny the acts of 1831 ? Would
they deny that the act settling those pensions on the con-
solidated fund secured them to their possessors during the
life-time at least of their respective possessors? (" No,
no. It is during pleasure.") Yes ; but that was not the
pleasure of Parliament, but the pleasure of the King
(Hear, hear, hear) ; and even granting the King had a
right to annul these pensions, it did not follow that Parlia-
ment had any right to interfere. These acts were passed
by the same Parliament which passed the Reform Bill,
which was a yet stronger argument in proof of the ex-
istence of that compact. (Hear.) It might be asked
how, entertaining these opinions, he came to vote for
the recent motion of the honourable member for Colches-
ter? He would tell why. Because that was a motion for
inquiry; and though he was not prepared to interfere
with existing pensions, yet he thought inquiry highly de
sirable. He was aware that many members who sup-
ported that motion, and the hon. mover himself, were
charged with having views far beyond inquiry, and ex-
tending, indeed, to confiscation ' • bat he never considered
it fair to act on the presumed motives of members ; he
judged by the terms of the motion alone, and on his appro-
bation or disapprobation of the motion itself he gave his
vote. (Hear, hear.) He voted for inquiry, and inquiry
alone. Many of those who considered that these pen-
sioners had a vested interest during the life of the present
King, thought that upon his decease some pruning might
take place. It was obvipus that all who so thought must
support inquiry. (Hear.) All knew that upon the pre-
sent pension list there were many highly deserving and
meritorious persons. Now, without some previous in-
quiry, it was impossible, at the period when they would be
called upon to pursue some decisive course, that • they
should be able to distinguish the worthy from the un-
worthy. An inquiry into such a subject would be long
and difficult, and there was but little chance of such an
inquiry being prosecuted during the interval between the
demise of one sovereign and the settlement of the civil
list of the next. (Hear, hear.) If the inquiry was post-
poned till that period, the unavoidable consequence would
be, that they would be compelled to decide without any
inquiry at all. (Hear.) Practically there would be two
parties in the house—one of whom would be for retaining
the pension list in a lump, without inquiry, and
the other for abolishing it in a lump, without
inquiry also. Another advantage resulting from
inquiry would be the diminution of the pre-
judice that might exist by the clearing up of the true state
of affairs, so that in the event of the demise of his present
Majesty, which he trusted might long be postponed, the
pension list might be put upon a just and satisfactory foot-
ing. He claimed inquiry therefore ; he claimed it on
these grounds—he claimed it on the score of justice to
former ministers, whose demerits in granting these pen-
skins had, he was sure, been greatly exaggerated ; and he
claimed it on the score of justice to those meritorious indi-
viduals whose pensions were the rewards of a life of public
service, and who, he was convinced, were far more nu-
merous than public indignation could at present believe.
(Hear, hear, hear.) He believed that the refusal of the
inquiry would be attended with grievous injustice to those
who carried the Reform Bill ; it would be a grievous in-
justice to ministers, who, he doubted not, were burning
with a just indignation at the exaggerations which had
gone the round of the public press. He had been told that
they withheld their votes from an inquiry, lest inouiry
might lead to a resumption of benefits conferred by them
on former dependants ; but if they did not volunteer to
come forward and exonerate their patrons, they were but
little worthy of their solicitude. It was right that parlia-
ment should, as a third and independent party, step in and
do justice to those who felt themselves honourably with-
held from doing justice to themselves. He should there-
fore support the amendment. (Loud cheers. )
Sir R. PEEL—I do not profess to be labouring under
the influence of those feelings which the hon. gentleman
who spoke last ascribed to former members of his Majesty's
Government. I cannot say that I am possessed with that
indignation which he has so
.profusely lavished on me ; I
cannot say that I am burning with indignation at the
charges made against me, or that 1 have any such anxiety
to vindicate myself as he appears to suppose. (A laugh.)
To not one of those charges do I attach the slightest im-
portance. (Hear.) I will not be influenced by any mo-
tives of false delicacy or mistaken honour to consent to a
motion that I believe to be inconsistent with justice, and
with the respect which we owe to the crown. (Hear. )
Though I entirely approve of the manly course taken by
the noble lord on this question—though I believe that he
is perfectly right in resisting both motions, and though I
heard with satisfaction the declaration, worthy of a mini-
ster of the crown, that, pass what resolutions you pleased,
he would not be the servile tool to execute them (Hear,
hear); though I willingly re-echo that sentiment, yet I
am not obliged to the noble lord for carrying before me
what he seems to consider his protecting shield. (Hear. )
I do not know what the issue of this debate may be. I
know it is confidently predicted that the inquiry will have a
majority in its favour. I do not believe it ; but if it be so,
to me personally it is a matter of but little consequence.
With regard to anypension on that list of which I have any
cognizance, I have not the slightest apprehension of going
before any tribunal. (Cheers.) I have no personal interest
in any; and all of which I have any cognizance are, I firmly
believe, applied in the strictest accordance with the spirit
of the act empowering the crown to confer them. The
speech of the hon. member for Derby annihilated all the
grounds of the hon. member for Colchester; and the speech
of that hon. gentleman annihilated all those on which
the hon. member for Derby rested his case. The hon.
member for Colchester proposes an address to the crown,
advising his Majesty to revise his own acts, and to withdraw
those pensions, the continuance of which Isis Majesty had
himself confirmed. This another hon. gentleman opposes
as disrespectful to the sovereign, and at variance with the
duty which we owe to his Majesty ; and nothing less will
content him, than giving to such a motion a direct and
unqualified negative. Yes, a negative. I\o previous
question, none of those delicate parliamentary modes of
getting rid of an unpleasant motion sometimes adopted ;
nothing but a direct and unqualified negative will
satisfy the hon. member. The hon. gentleman said the
motion was inconsistent with the respect due to the crown ;
that if the question were to have been raised at all, it
should have been raised previously to the settlement of
the civil list; and that, as his Majesty himself had
not thought proper at that period to make any alteration,
it would not be becoming in the House of Com-
mons, after having granted to his Majesty the means
of conferring those pensions, now to turn round upon
him, and call on him to revoke these instances
of his royal bounty. I agree, too, with the honourable
member for Derby, that you cannot, with any consistency,
call on the present ministers, who advised his Majesty to
make this arrangement, now to advise his Majesty to recall
it. How could his Majesty's ministers with decency adopt
such a course ? I certainly think the proposition of the lion.
gentleman (Mr. Strutt) the more respectful of the two,
but I cannot help feeling, to the fullest extent, the objec-
tion which the hon. member himself made against his own
plan. The objection was urged with great force, and ap-
peared to me to be fatal. 1 turned round several times
during the delivery of his speech to friends near me, and
said, " This is a most excellent speech, but what, in the
name of wonder, can be the nature of the amendment which
a man entertaining those sentiments can propose ?" Not
only, said the hon. gentleman, did he oppose this on the
ground of justice, but he opposed it also on the ground of
policy ; for, said he, nothing could be more prejudicial to
the great cause of gradual reform and the amelioration of
our institutions, of which he is so desirous, than to encum-
ber it with acts of individual injustice ; and unjust it cer-
tainly would be to withdraw the amounts of those pensions
from their existing holders. This being the doctrine of
the hon. gentleman, on what principle does lie ask us to
appoint a select committee ? The hon. member for Col-
chester himself seemed to admit the impossibility of it. He
said, that though originally in favour of an inquiry, subse-
quent consideration had induced him to alter his opinion.
The hon. member said, that when lie thought of the prac-
tical results of such a measure—when he thought of the
necessity for calling before their tribunal of inquiry inno-
cent ladies of high rank—when he thought of young and
delicate females having to inquire through the purlieus of

that house their way to No. 13.--the committee-road to '
v. hich they were to be called—there appeared to be sonic!
thing so revolting to the feelings of an Enghsn gentleman, thai, !"
though he approved of a select committee, the vision e: is
those ladies waiting in the committee-room to be examieslit
by the committee of which the hon. and learned gentleinaa
would be chairman, had induced him to abandon his magas
nal intention and proceed by address. (Hear, hear, hear.)
The hon. member fos Derby tells the people of England
that these are vested rights, and et asked for an exanli%
tion into them, in order to satisfy pure curi,,sitY• , 'l,O
admits that you can swe nothing by it—that not a sing!
farthing can be saved; but in order to gratify the pubic
curiosity as to the way in which these pensions wee',
granted, we are to waste the public time in a select Co"'"w,
mittee—a committee which I certainly think would be co
pelled to return one of the most curious reports that ecte,l
emanated from any committee of this house. (Hear' ),,a1
all proceedings more dangerous to property of every slo
than another would be such a proceeding as this ; for vide-
could have a more injurious effect upon property than bt,
daring that the owners possess it at once by legal rig it
and by a species of moral turpitude ? (Hear, htar.), it,
would even be better to address the Crown to rest:in:lt
own acts and proceedings, than to have that odious It:0
committee for the purpose of making inquiries which hop
be of no possible use or public advantage. The 'ttoa,
question,indeed, is pregnant with grounds of ortence
But above all other objections is this, that the "5..614
and continuance of these pensions form part of the ells` tia
compact between the King and the people. (flora? Was
under what circumstances was this compact made ' , pa
it a mere grant of a sum of public money to the Crosse la
the purpose of granting pensions ?—Certainly not
os
1830 the King sent a message to the House of Connecta
in which he resigned to his people revenues that had ne
before been given up to them. 1 His Majesty said— ,i,..5,
" By the demise of my lamented brother, the late p•
the vil list revenue has ateexrd. tiO
I place without reserve your disposal myinteres be
the hereditary revenues, and in those funds winch-4101
derived from any droits of the Crown or Admiralty, either
' ther
the West India duties, or from any casual revenues'
in my foreign possessions or in the United Kingd°ul's 1,011
" In surrendering to you my interest in revenues `s" at()
have in former settlements of the civil list been reserve.
0,
the crown, I rejoice in the opportunity of evincingli eta "
tire reliance on your dutiful attachment, and my e°—„, ell'
that you will cheerfully provide all that may be n—els r
for the support of the civil government, and the boos
and dignity of my crown."
revenues
sa
And what was to be the equivalent for the i bl
liberally given up? What but the civil list grantee the
Parliament in lieu of those revenues ? What were e?
terms in which the Commons replied to that gracious 5; to
sage? [The right hon. baronet then read the answesaaa
the address, which was as usual an echo of that n;eo.,,—Sty
promising the suitable provision for the honour anuciplestS
of the crown, and declaring their gratitude to his 3, Nais
for the resignation of the hereditary revenues, gie.l . la;
was the address which you then presented, and neas'e'seot
way of showing your gratitude truly ! you wish to Pr
say.
a second address four short years only after the othe,r, the
ing that you have done wrong, that the provision nit the
pension last ought not to have granted, and tha(t of
present Parliament is determined to rescind the %oat;
the former, which expressly and on such considlaanal
guaranteed the continuance of that provision \ -Tae
the life of the Sovereign. (Hear, hear, hear; ai„ this,
construction which the former Parliament place" laced
grant may be seen fiom the fact that 75,000/. was P the
on the civil list, and the further sum of 83,000/. eat this
consolidated fund. What right have you to say' th s'; aeir
construction is not binding on you? Even the
,n,°',..osiiich
tleman who has just sat dcwn recognized the riaTaers of
these arrangenients conferred on ' the present bult of tlio
pensions. The act of Parliament for the settlemen d tiled
civil list, recited the message and the address,
sail ails
conferred this grant on the King, in order to '
(Hear, hear), were chargeable on the hereditary
had "go,
in England and Scotland, &c., which his 111aj estY•learl 'the
nized, the next clause provides that in how c
c'ously surrendered; and to show further is recog'
•ions .
vested interests of the parties holding Pense event of the
to provide for all those pensions which, prior tebnteast.lienieis
the
i resent Ala',
resumption of the hereditary revenues by lbs P. os should
jesty, -his heirs, or successors that such P
en'
revenues. If,h
a-sam become chargeable on the hereditary
sued to Pus-
therefore, the hon. gentleman had been
'rtue of drat
tended that the persons holding penstons by.vi
the
the life of Pre)
compact, are entitled not only during _
_., bear.
sent monarch, but during their own lives. (Hearo_ could
Ifs argument a little further, be might ifnafil:yhave 01y
Indeed it must be quite clear that such a provirstens
were
only be made on the presumption that these parties thei:
entitled to the enjoyment of these pensions duringassep
iarnent p
lives. And by whom was that act of Porl theilia,....
By the very Parliament that passed the Reform] s' atal
Parliament elected under the excitement of idavxna,ori,
which ra3sed the Reform Bill by such triumphant tit sir
ties. Is it, then, I will ask, wise to attack the solon 01,
cisions of former Parliaments? Or can you safely iniPt.oo?
one decision without bringing another into ques liassa
What security can there be ror property, when the ' it,
s-curing it are not respected, even by the legislature .0
self ? (Hear, hear.) I really think a great misconstrue' ,
prevails as to what the intentions of Parliament really write
in granting pensions. It was thought expedient that
right of the Crown to grant pensions should be limited,,
point of amount, but it was never intended that th-,r;
should be any limit as to the persons for whose benefit
.'.3"0
Crown was to exercise its right. Ido not wish to_.l,'. of
any opinion on the noble lord's resolutions of the 11','1(.1,
May, which for the future regulate the principle: orn_neta,
pensions should be granted ; but I submit that 1 a I,lai'"t tot
when it granted this sum to his Majesty, granitie"fer the
for the purpose of rewarding official service,
„la louilts;
mere purpose of exercising his royal favour aa 6....u5e Yon
and I cannot conceive a greater injustice than, no
ions were
now condemn the principles on which these p. Si_ters act-
granted, that you should turn round on the sunirtio'd on the
ing under the sanction of former parliament!
t;a11 be saerve
unfortunate holders of pensions, and say they shear. ) Th
thority. I certainly was surprised fired to your new notions of policy. (11,e,aterise as his aei
hon. gentleman has ventured to refer to aa! _ 1 tboughte;
the speech
could remember more than one passage', with the prier;
that celebrated statesman utterly at variane , in ,y CO
ciples laid down to-night. Nor am I wistloensuieal ref°rT
jecture. Mr. Burke in his speech on eco
Christmas, °,
says, " I do not propose, as I told you before
v this, it nit,'
take off any pension. (Hear, hear.) a' ow of which t ,
be remembered, was the speech on the politph' e
' right 111,
present pension system was arranged. (
extracts k r
gentleman then proceeded to read further t
any bon, her
Burke.) If (he went on to say) you wanoul„ and ).01.„
proof, it is only necessary to reflect for a
~trir,
d ted the PT,Lt
will readily see that, if Parliament had a P been cauots
ciple of imitation, accounts would hav:uch aoconas
for from time to time, and that
__.„,. dissu,;(
would have formed constant themes for th"e'E;;. ) 13anr.,
sions between contending parties. (Ficar, nosed by f
_35
independently of this, other acts have befiei;a servi 'abjiog
liament to enable the crown to reward od the act en the
for instance, the superannuation act, an_ crown. l'e fsli
his Majesty to reward ministers of the,ed. And althoua,,
pensions act has always remained untone"base occasion :1
you may think that the crown as
in
ido not think tit;t
lavished rewards on public servants, with any coiret
at that,.
the pension list has ever been perverted,., /Oh !) . I °ad
.
view of influencing votes in parliament. N • caection, a,
public insi the caas
believe it. There is the list open to .f it were tad
it would not be difficult to prove it, I
arbansen 0,
(Hear, hear.) Up, then, to the year 1830, Pr,der this the
ministers acted upon this construction, and en ,idreSs ,of
pression; and I submit, therefore, that now to
.7 ~ act, ,
crown, or to appoint a select committee would be ',;ea ot,
moat manifest injustice. (Hear, hear, hear.) 1 wiselY t,
ject be reform, that reform would, as has beet' 1 detil,
marked, be injured and impeded by such an act•cre of core
too, that the tory ministry are liable to the chart used titai
ruption in the disposal of pensions, or that theY,rcisitig •os
intention of the pension list in occasionally
.?,,,ibtatin,
majesty to make use of it for the purpose o.te loao`, goi
_,144
official arrangements. (Hear, hear.) Yo a:vina rev't;ajiie ,
to dry up the sources of that power of best?
alt:the re,
for service which was once considered essontict
of re,urJblie
being of the state. (Hear, 'hear.) The °tbr bat rleasti poss
sent labours seems to be to ascertain .eatac the _ etseet
men can be invited into the public 'chat will be tiel oifies
sible expense. (Hear, hear, hear.) e advantage?
to de"
of depriving every public man of thosceelent to hint,eo,)
which formerly operated as coil inde iknow not. (tP. or
vote his time and energies to the pc,
talent into
coot'ase
I hope you may be able to invite grea taking a invite ,e 0
vice of the Crown ; I hope you are
,a, the P"%selves
to obtain the assistance of those in who
to set tliei 1
je ,o,
place confidence, and to induce then 0 it naq yoo
apart for the service of the . people. '
I 'JO and tout I°l
but I think you have taken a wrong c'ers.) Yitublic,
are pursuing a mistaken policy. (Cr",' to rewash his-
think that the pension list is not intenden, review „airs o
services. , I say that it is. (Hear. ) Jutts'S,sa tbe„ 'dill
tory of the public men who have influe Ts. Begi. this
this country (hiring the last twenty yet conotrY,,eaa).--a
Mr. Fox. He directed the business of tn , war,
I' fare; i
house. llow long did he survive Pitt?
,cos 1015 a,
~
and who succeeded him (Pitt), and whatu_.jeti t ropr
He was cut off in the prime of his life-I:_.tti!ot soffits
mature grave by an intensity of labour, %'' Fitt of
0:0,
human constitution could sustain. (Ileatrb. hand ° e l'Y
ceeded by Perceval. He perished bided in this hoults_Aky
sassin. (*Mar, hear.) lie was suee_e:t., ,vas ilDtlo l!';iiiit !
Lord Castlereagh, whose untimely'
atblie service:utlioo
brought about by his devotion to ,
IDE' LlDefilbered v'_..iabty.
eountry—a fate aich could scarce
did abilitie, thel es. of
a tributary tear. Look at the splenn .
_, their saeri"tetheri
services of those great men. Tl t.' 's.s.k you wbanteati
health, strength, and life itself, andhil)a
saaat of Par os s''
looking at the constructin shrunk upon t ' ~ii oatt? Ma'
at the time, those who not from tei.isea hiasi e tot
necessary duty were to blame if theysa I've pleasa,oo
jesty to bestow his. Royal bounty. (lieu) th„ sow 0
call it so) for the purpose of facilita,i.,g.„., ishen‘tices
arrangement of business, and pro,vilar the' f the'''.
other mode of provision appeared, Sa
~,er o f oft
and families of those who devoted the no:/ear. ) vice
? (r • serest
existence to the service of their country
the übbe I- WO
know how difficult it is to provide for p
molts. •
without resorting to some such arrang

~~

hear, from, we believe, Mr. D. IV. Harvey.) under-
stand t. e 1?on. gentleman's sneer. I care not for it. The
• ho g ntleman may• think it impossible but that some
gr p ,try motive must influence a statesman's every ac-
jar; reldthat in providing even for the companion of his
; . arse and the friend of his bosom, he can have none but a
'4'l ger object. I care not for his sneer. (Hear, hear. )
in re are generous minds around me, and to them I ap-
Pea'. (Cheers ) However certain . members may
fr,.m ine.in opinion, I trust that the majority of this
"ate s ill entertain so much respect for those who have
performed important services, and for their descendants,
L
that a
- ev will not make such persons . the victims of these
new opinions. (Hear, hear. )
Mr. SHEIL observed that the right hon. baronet, con-
'44"s, no doubt, that the pension list was almost entirely a
. creation of the predecessors of the present ministers, now
came forward to give his Majesty's present ministers his
disinterested support. The right hon. baronet differed,
I.:awever, in one point with the noble lord opposite. The
yht hon. baronet considered the pension list as immacu-
late, and therefore opposed the motion. The noble lord,
-4 the contrary, allowed that it was covered with blots,
tuid
oPposed the motion on that ground. With respect to
thde inot:on of the hon. member for Colchesterr, and
it e,,amendment of the honourable member for. Derby,.
-I,Peared to him that there was very little Terencedif-
ro
in their value, because, although they might be
,Inalcd on different premises, they came to the same con-
e4tsien. It was of little importance what course was
4dopted if inquiry was the result. Great reliance had been
lad on the arment derived from acts of Parliament ;
ti any one would suppose that the first act of William the
th-urth was unprecedented in its nature, and that that was
At-ee first occasion on which there had been any surrender
the hereditary revenues of the crown. But he
the beged
1 000.
e house to remember the important fact, thatact
\V, afforded the precedent from which the act 1
was drawn. It was an extraordinary cir-
lalnstalice that every one of the arguments used by the
le lord this evening against the motion, had been used
oy. the Chancellor of the Exchequer of 1828 against
I:laretne:,tien made by the hon. member for Middlesex. It
difficult to reconcile the fact of the support
to the as
b motion of the hon. member for Middlesex in 1828,
,Yeilie present members of his Majesty's government, with
r opposition to the present motion of the hon. member
Tr r
-0 chester. But it was curious to observe the _Tee Ito
of the expressions used by the present noble Chan-
'-ci,uor of the rachequer and by:theright hon. the Chancellor
ttti the Exchequer of 1828. [The hon. and learned gen-
"lan here read an extract from the speech made by Mr.
(,letilisurn in 1828, on the motion by Mr. Hume respecting
t" Pension list, in which that right lion. gentleman dwelt
°,,irt tile surrender by his Majesty of the hereditary revenues
tile crown, and on the violation of the contract between
11'e King and the parliament, which would take place if the
list were thus interfered with.] The charges in the
eleil list were one thing, but the chargesof the consolidated
'and were another. No attempt was made by the movers of
either of the propositions before the house, or by the
supporters of those propositions, to diminish the amount of
the sum granted in lieu of the hereditary revenues of the
crown. That sum was 1,700,0001., and he admitted that
'f they took one farthing from that sum they would violate
.1110 contract between the King and the Parliament. But
_tthile he admitted that that sum ought not to be dimi-
-I,l,l,shed, he contended that
as it was at the disposal of his
i",_nijesty's ministers the House of Commons had a right to
how it was applied. As to the names of the persons
bed he pension list, there was a great distinction to be made
pli,tTeen them. There were those who had performed great
therele services, and whose right to be there was indispu-
Theie were others who ought never to have been
• If of the latter class there were individuals who
that the` destitute of all other means of support, God forbid
theretheY should be turned into the world pennyless; but
were others who, in themselves undeserving, had not
deserved
plea of want.' It was against those who neither
t‘te,4..e -ed nor required the benefit of the pension list, that
the sense of the people of Englandespecially revolted.
Illerk. LLOYD suppported the amendment. On a for-
able eceasion be had voted for the motion of the honour-
io,tialember for Colchester, because on that occasion the
skt 00 was merely for a general inquiry ; but, in the pre-
Itoi,i(:ase, an invidious distinction was made, to which he
•eotiCnot consent. Further than the amendment he
tittii (knnot
go. The people of England had a right to in-
the The People of England were quite satisfied that
.rossest profligacy existed on the subject.
the ZIROTCH did not think that either the motion or
peom ":•ndrnent. would satisfy the just expectations of the
bt 1 ')f England. Something unquestionably ought to
44,°,4,‘ upon the subject, but what he wished was do
tlikt-tr ng practical and effective. It was highly desirable
salted e poor and the wretched should no longer
.-, be in-
kith bY the spectacle of some titled peer, overflowing
fox wealth, making an affidavit before a parish officer
spas the purpose of receiving perhaps the paltry sum of
4.1 forty pounds. With respect to his Majesty's
sesh,s-!,ent administration, he was very anxious that they
t' f 1 retain their places, for he believed there was no
voll:'laen in the country by whom they could be succeeded
belie could conciliate so much support in that house. He
atlted that his Majesty's ministers were going on in the
not ae'ZY, if they were kePt to it ; but if the house did
hern, the them to it, if they did not look sharply after
%me ntionY would be left in the lurch. (A laugh.) His
an ."
as to move another amendment ( A laugh)
he .1 9)Portunit • e afforded him of doing so. What
ao fa‘,lshed was3tha"terthe pension list should at least be
kid ' weeded, that persons who possessed other property,
I,on:teat's sufficient for comfortable life, should no longer
tti7ttlg to it. (Hear, hear, and coughing.) To that ex-
it i,zu,s amendment would go, and he intended to propose
the shape of an address. (Coughing.) In the pre-
,iO4"' temper of the hour, he did not expect their atten-
h4 but he was thinking of the feelings and opinions of
to constituents. (A laugh.) He had been already called
N4ccount by them, for not having attended the late dis-
ii,'Non on this subject, which he had been prevented
liZgl by illness. ( A laugh.) The motion of the hon.
th,,-'Per for Colchester he should certainly support, unless
to't.,"ouse would take his amendment in preference. As
api„,7 amendment of the hon. member for Derby, it dis-
tiNVnted him, because it did not propose to .go into an
Will/rill") the whole subject. He repeated, that that
4, the Wa:s most desirous to get rid of was the insertion
and a„ttqllsmti list of the names of persons who had other
kernb e means of provision. The hon. and learned
Rate etlel'uled by reading the address, which he had
o it
"'cur f his intention to move, if an opportunity should
" his (loin,"
1 r• Secrets "'
e-rl,ll rY TANLEY observed, that the-hon. and
his I.,("adgentlernan who had just sat down had expressed
fhis or Ilie
iness either to propose his own address, or to vote
rnetion of the hon. member for Colchester. For
leasu7e. he (Mr. Stanley) could not see why the hon. and
t,he ato gentleman might not, with equal facility, vote for
went of the hon. member for Derby. Now, he
7.trne, d leY) differed so completely from the. hon. and
'lo°nest elither, that he felt compelled to object in the
ban' ent, ar]nanner to the original motion, to the aimchenthe-
, to th
to.o and h„ e address in shape of resolution, which
s ,)osf, before member had intimated his intention to
thakact.h,fo-e.ore he entered into a consideration of the
ie eana,_re the house, he begged to say a few words on
tletriber.-lniav course taken by the hon. and learned
andla.4e certainly was surprised to hear from the
looks' that -arn, ed gentleman, a chairman of Quarter &s-
-ail at th '" people of ngland were not satisfied to
s bed for-esonlierl view of the question, but that they
kit '4l at practical steps • and he was equally
• •the 1 and
rned the frank manner in which ion.
tl reeeigentlernan confessed that the hints which he
v.ecadl from his constituents induced him to advocate
plc the ti step. respect to the propositions house, he he objected to that ofthe hon. member for
nie,."ter, because it would be unjust; to that of the hon.
'i'lner for Derby, be, ause it would; to
inefficient and
het gat of the hon. and learned gentle, •
both unjust and inefficient. Theani.,,obnecause it would
• member for
klPPerary and one or two other hon. gentlemen had
asked
4wh•
stionich had been answered more than once, as to
la,l the noble lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer' who
tio,vat one time advocated this species of inquiry, should
tist:Ppose it ? The answer had been very clear and sa-
ili.t°lY- The circumstances of the case were quite dif-
iLestl;' The right hmi. baronet, the member for
1," h'; who had done Ministers the honour of lending
si'n's distinguished and disinterested support (A laugh),
4,31.1ew."e5u,(1,4 statement- on this head which had not been
the e:_ any one ; that in the peculiar circumstances
a p'-'e there was this novelty—not the novelty
Wevi.tieni_ustierb-eenioder eorfe hereditary revenue, but of a certain
(;).(4' bad h.g rendered to the discretion of Parliament,
iii rendered
been intrusted to the discre.tionthoefctivhiel
oistt',)a spe'et
,Inust be admitted that in arranging
het 4 the . al act of parliament was passed which. recog-
ia ate
civil list for the time to be granted in lieu of an
taarehaLrevenue, which had been given up by the Crown
work orte I,e,ef°r a pension list, reduced in amount no less.
rasp ~i
,1;* ,(Re.ar, bear, hear.) Hon. members had
tt,,a•eiiß •_eives into a state of much energetic fury in
No e undisputed fact of the responsibility of minis-
e,'"ni li:tie denied the responsity of ministur.s.for the
ress„e" heel; Olear, hear); but such a responsibility had
Cir'nsibii: sanctioned by any former Parliament. Such
rits a
" principle which the noble lord, now
111 (I.lue,r°l the
1, Exchequer, had sought to establish in
dealt house "ear), but his proposition' had been negatived
tehA erY4lfics• The reformed Parliament, however, had
14to-ttniiel'tl differ
•
74, y with respect to this list. It had been
bad e "ed that Parliament had a right to e amine
Viehltehreveau the list.; and so it had, when the Crown
op matt t';'e neees jst mentioned at its disposal,
.at the. time
arliah :vas making the bargain with his
.Majesty.
Jlesty?Ps tj, had no opportunity of expressing their
1,4i.0.. The I,subject at the accession of his present a-
-ad, Jul'sb was laid before his Majesty in December,
LY th'„elner, ,Y' 1831, the noble lord the Chancellor of. thes'on.
hon, r, 'ine to the house the proposition mentioned
Ail that noblede/out (for 200,000/. ); and on this occa-
441l'oted hnlan had made the observation so uncan-
om t of ilot the hon• gentleman, to the effect, that the
Fen Me them to members to that proposition would not
the noble ast3" subsequent -assent too the pension list.
triable had made that declaration . he
e hito
tog ing for a vote of credit, chumwh ight
on until the final arrangements with the

Crown were made. In 1832 that final settlement was
made with. the Crown, by which his Majesty exchanged
the hereditary revenues of the Crown for the reduced pen-
sion list. It any opposition was to be made against the
list, that was the time for making it. There had been an
interval of 18 months between the first agitation and the
final settlement of the subject, yet no objection had been
made • to a single 'item, except by the hon. member for
Middlesex, who moved as an amendment, not that each in-
dividual ease should be investigated by Parliament, but
that those on the consolidated fund should every year be
brought before Parliament. This amendment was so far
from being carried, that it fell to the ground from being
actually in want of a seconder, .and when the bill was
brought forward for the third reading, the hon. member '
stated, that having by his amendment entered his pro-
test against it, ho had no further opposition to offer.
(Hear, hear.) Thus was the solemn bargain concluded
between the Crown and the representatives of the people ;
yet this very said bargain two hon. members had pro-
posed two different ways of violating—a breach of faith I
which no man in private life would think of. Of the two
propositions, the address to the crown was, perhaps, the
most constitutional, but from both he dissented. He would
put a case of a gentleman who came 'into possession of a
large estate charged with certain annuities. These annui-
ties, on coming of age, he guarantees the payment of to the
parties, not in presence of witnesses, say, or legal docu-
ments, but by giving his parole assurance as a man of ho-
nour ; what would be thought of that man if he should
afterwards turn round and tell his annuitants that he would
not pay them unless they produced their bonds and their
parchments? (Cheers.) Were the ministers of the crown
to cover themselves with the infamy of violated faith be-
cause any member who wished to curry favour with his
constituents, might choose to call upon them to make the
unhallowed sacrifice? (Cheers.) Was he, as a minister
of the crown, to advise his Sovereign to do that which he
would think it infamous to advise a private friend to do ?
No : and he would say, with every respect for the house,
that whatever decision that house came to—whatever ad-
dress or advice they might determine upon, that address or
advice should not be given through him. There were many
sacrifices which a man, in accepting office, was called upon
to make ; but there were sacrifices which no minister could
make without feeling that his public usefulness was gone
for ever with his private honour. (Cheers.) That every
one had a right to his opinions as to whether the proceed-
ings of Ministers in 1802 or 1885 were right, he did not
deny ; but he should not any the more consent to a com-
mittee of inquiry on the subject, because he did not see
to what result this would tend. Hon. members said they
wanted to see what men of large fortune were recipients of
pensions. He perhaps agreed with those hon. gentlemen
in thinking that persons who had money otherwise did
themselves no honour by continuing public pensioners.
(Hear, hear.) He trusted the feeling of honour in those
recipients would forbid them to continue in receipt of these
pensions; but it would be impossible to lay down the limits
of the fortune which should exempt men from receiving the
pension. The proposition for doing away with legal claims
did not come very well from the chairman of a quarter
sessions (A laugh) ' • that a legal claim existed there was no
doubt, and the rich man had an equal right to assert his
claim, if he chose, as the poor man ; and to attempt to in-
terfere with him was manifestly an act ,of injustice and
illegality. The supposed distinctions between the conso-
lidated list and the civil list, which had been dwelt on by
honourable members, afforded another proof of the different
views with which honourable gentlemen supported the
motion. On a former night he had answered the
objections on this point made by the hon. member for
Colchester, who had assented to the justice of his exposi-
tion. The mistake seemed to exist with reference to the
allocation, but the allocation on the one list was as secured
by Act of Parliament as that on the other. Indeed, it
would have been absurd to say that certain men from A to
H should be more or less secured in their pensions than
those from H to Z. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that
these acts were not worth contending for—that the Par-
liament which passed and recognized them was still ham-
pered by the presence of boroughmongers. The hon.
member who gave utterance to this sentence was the Chair-
man of a Quarter Sessions. (A laugh.) Surely he did
not carry these notices of the law to the Bench with him.
(A laugh.) Surely he did not set forth, that as so and so
had been enacted in a Parliament " still hampered," &c.,
that so and so was not law. (A laugh.) If he did, God
help the unfortunate wretches that came before him.
(Hear, and a laugh.) An hon. member had said that the
present administration had forfeited the confidence of the
country. If so, the sooner they ceased to be the nominal
advisers of the Crown the better. He was ready to admit
that there might be found in the vast intellectual body that
surrounded•him men of greater talent and ability as ad-
visers of the Crown than the present Administration : that
any could be found more anxious for the people's welfare
he would not admit (Cheers) ; but he trusted that a mi-
nistry would never be found who would sanction the
monstrous doctrine that Acts of Parliament may be vio-
lited if they happen to have been passed before 1830
(Hear, hear); or who would be bold or base enough to ad-
vise their Sovereign to violate his plighted faith. (Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL did not see what boldness or base-
ness was necessary to strengthen a man in repudiating a
non-existing contract, or an Act of Parliament that was
never passed (Hear, hear) ; for he utterly denied the
existence of any law which sanctioned these pensions.
(Hear, hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman was never
loud in his declamations about the law of the matter.
Let the law officer of the Crown (A laugh) come forward
and show any such legalization of these pensions as asserted
by the right hon. secretary, and he (Mr. O'C.) would be
silenced. On what terms were these pensions given ?
Were they given during the life of the party ? No ; but
they were granted "during pleasure" (Hear, hear) ; as
long as that " pleasure" lasted, and no longer, were these
pensionaries entitled to their pensions. What, then, be-
came of the legal claim of these people ? (Hear, hear.)
Former Governments had been more open ; they said that
these pensions were prerogatives of the Crown ; but this
administration talked about the "legal claim" of these
pensionaries ; and the legality of this claim being over-
thrown, the claim itself was as nought. There was not a
single case of merit in the whole list. There was more
of prudence than of chivalry in the right hon. secretary's
championship of this list. There were several reasons why its
details should be kept from the public ; there were private se-
cretaries and their private secrets. (Hear, and a laugh.)
There were many names in that list, an inquiry into whose
claim would reflect but little credit either upon giver or
receiver. Was this country so well off as to be able to
bear the extra weight of these stipendiary supernumeraries?
Never were the poor poorer ; but " delicacy" forbade any
investigation. " Delicacy !" It was a good, and very
appropriate word. (A laugh.) The right honourable
secretary's pompous oration about " honour and dignity,"
was very well as an oration, but it had little to do with the
present question. As to the hon. secretary's tirade about
not giving a Sovereign advice, which it would be infamy
to give a friend, surely the hon. secretary, if he found
that his friend had been under a long course of deprivation
by a gang of swindlers, would think it his duty to warn
that friend against these swindlers. (Hear.) He (Mr.
O'Connell) had no desire to make this a matter of minis-
ters going out or stopping in, though the Downing-street
parliament summoned that morning had arrived at that de-
termination. (Hear, hear.) What he wanted was a full
inquiry into this matter, and he had heard no cause shown
against inquiry.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY, in reply, said lie would first
take the sense of the house on the original motion, and if
that were lost, he would vote for the amendment, as he
was determined to have the sense of the house expressed
one way or another on this question. The right hon.
secretary said that if the motion were carried, it would be
a signal for retreat from office for himself and colleagues ;
but he forgot that there were two ministers in the house ;
that there was another prime minister in the hon. member
for Tamworth (A laugh); no chicks ever seemed more
anxious to get under the hen's wing than ministers were to
get under the wing of the hon. baronet—constantly were
they on the watch to catch the leer of his doubtful eye
( A laugh)—to enlist his support in their cause ; not that
their anxiety was often disappointed, for the hon. baronet
had too great a sympathy in all their views and notions to
withhold his support. (Hear, hear.) Already had the
bevuesnineifss
tailors struck, and now a strike was threatened in the
cabinet. (Roars of laughter). But he had little doubt,
t.hey did strike, that we should be as lucky as the
master tailors, and find old women just as efficient men of
(Renewed laughter.) As to the amendment—it
appeared to him that the hon. mover of it took too high a tone.
But he did not exactlyunstand on what ground he had li
(broughti‘lnHarvey)fo w- forward d
thathi;
itwould amendment,u as it appeared to him
any
sately tend to the same
of
thea lawyer in that
results as the motion.
house that could deny, thTahteirfe
e
pensioners were
desirous of selling their pensions, and the intendingf ritr-
chasers were to ask the opinion of any member o
n-
, coln's-inn as to the validity of the title—that such person
would say at once the title is not good. He would tellthole
purchaser to exercise his own discretion ; but that govern-
ment could withhold the pension whenever it thought fit.
He would put the case to the house whether, when the
civil list was agreed to be 75,0001., his Majesty could not
have cancelled the whole, or part of that list; and if any
person had in such a case petitioned the house complain-
ing of this exercise of the Royal prerogative, would not
the house at once dismiss the petition as an unwarrant-
ablee 01. d
ni ngt etrof etrheen cdeocwtriitnhe ththe e
yr rights of
tohfatthneigchrtoi,
hvenar?d, Ac-
pension list could never be interfered with, but would
be perpetuated for ever. He would call the attention
of the house to an extract from a speech delivered by
a right honourable gentleman, and with which ex-
tract he (Mr. D. Harvey) would conclude. It came
from a quarter which, of all others, was entitled to respect
in that house. It was an extract from a speech by the
First Lord of the Admiralty, when, along with him (Mr.
D. W. Harvey), he supported this pillar. [Here the
hon. and learned gentleman very significantly pointed to
one of the pillars on the opposition side of the house amidst
loud cheers and laughter.] He- then concluded by reading
an extract from Sir James Graham's speech, which com-
bated the doctrine of vested rights, and strenuously main-
tained that it was the duty of Parliamen to discoun-

eirtne:e those pengiom which were unmerited.—The
xt,l-I.ct was read amil,t loud cheering.
The house then div:ded, when there appeared—
Ayes l4B
Noes
Majority against tii m6ticn —212
The house next divided on Mr. Strutt's amend.nent,
when there appeared
Ayes
311
Noes •
Majorit: —Bl
OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH BILL.

On our re-admissiol to the gallery, we found
Mr. FLEETWOOD moving for leave to bring in a
to alter, amend, and consolidate the laws relating to the
observance of the Sabbath. He said, after having seen the
one which had been brought forward and rejected by the
house, he was induced to bring forward a more moderate
measure. The bill he had to propose had for its object the
consolidation of the various acts on the subject, and cer-
tain new provisions. He, however, did not contemplate
either any interference with the liarrnlss recreation of the
join., and still less to impose any particular form of wor-
ship. His bill would not affect the sale of any articles of
Food—it would not touch pastry-cooks, confectioners, coffee
shops, or fruit-venders—they would be left subject to the
existing laws. Nor would it apply to -canals nor harbours.
It was for the suppression bona fide of Sunday trading,
and would apply to the carrying on of any trade, mann-
'acture, or handicraft work on the Sunday, except in spe-
,.!ified cases. It would also provide against the opening of
any public-house before one o'clock' on the Sunday, and
hotels and club-houses would be liable to the same restric-
tions. (Loud cries of " No, no.") The hon. gentleman
concluded by moving for leave to bring in his bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK objected to such a motion at so late
in hour. He would oppose it in limine. Exhausted as
he was, if the house was determined to go on, he would
state his objections to it at length. ICries of " Go on,"
and " Adjourn.") He had the capacity to talk for three
hours ; and, if the house insisted on proceeding, he must.
Put his power to proceed to the test. (Cries of "Go on.")
It was impossible that justice could be done to so important
a subject, at that late hour in the morning:
An HoN. MEMBER moved the adjournment of the
house, upon whi :h the house divided, when there ap-
peared—
Ayes
Noes
Majority against the adjournment —2B
The debate was subsequently adjourned by agreement.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at twenty minutes past one.