The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-14 00:00:00

THE' SUN,

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!her had the excess been met? By the Governor borrow- aggression had led to retaliation, and the people of England
ing from the Orphan's Guardian Fund, arising from the were called upon to pay a tax in order to support this act of
estates of minors, of which he was the legal gusrdian. He aggression on our part. Sir Benjamin •elerban, whom the
now Caine to a new point—namely, whether the policy which Noble Lord quoted, was not the man who would advise such
he had described was in process of being brought to a conclu- a course to' be taken. Earl Grey gave Sir H. Smith the
lion, or of being carried out and exaggerate I. He believed authority to govern Kafiraria separate and distinct from the
the general feeling in this country to be that the people were Cape of Good Hope; and the Noble Earl further told Sir
Content to bear the 2000• COOL expended in the Kafir war, 11. Smith to take poseession of the lake that was discovered
rider the indefinitenotion that it would be the last win But about 700 miles northward of our territory. They were
e told them that the same policy was increasing to so gigantic now called upon to carry on a war which the Cape Attor-
-"
en , extent that all which bad occurred was as nothing to ney-General in 1819 declared they had no right to carry on
laat they might expect to see. On the 11th of July. 1830, at all; but who, two years afterwards, altered his opinion,
Sir ii.°l Smith wrote to Lord Grey to tell him, as a piece of on the pretence that there was a cession of the land by same
good news,that a new lake had been discovered in the inte- men who had each 50 followers. The fact, however,
riot, about 700 miles north of the northern frontier of our co- was, the English were the aggressors. He, therefore, 0-
°074 that the Dutch boers, discontented with our rule, were jetted to this expense. Let the colonists have a constitution,
rasing towards the lake, and were willing to give up all and they, by conciliation and justice, would obtain peace.
ir possessions to escape from the 6th and 7th William IV., But now to give money was to encourage oppression and in-
-57 ; but he informed Lord Grey, that he had been be- justice, and that he would not consent to do. The Noble
orehang with them, and had sent his agents in advance, Lord's statement as to the reason why the colonists had not
and advised Lord Grey to extend the 6th and 7th William now a constitution was not worthy of the attention of the
17.---to where? To the equator. His own impression was, 110 the. The Noble Lord had not acted with his usual can-
. ,eat it would be advisable to accredit British agents to re- dour in stating the cause of the dispute with the colonists at
aide with the natives in the neighbourhood of this lake, the Cape. It arose from the Governor insisting on having
• and for this duty he would select missionaries. Ile assured the estimates from those who declared they had no power, as
the natives teat the boers were their enemies—and that they they had not been authorised to grant them. Then there
Would run imminent danger if they allowed them to come was a dispute about a Bill which referred to an ordinance of
amongst them. Lord Grey, in reply. told Sir H. Smith that 1841, concerning the Church. The protests of the popular
it was the determination of the Government not to declare representatives were disregarded by Sir H. Smith and the
the whole country to be under British rule. But observe the officials; the representatives retired, and their conduct was
la3' in which he cautioned Sir H. Smith. At the same approved of by eight-tenths of the constituency of the colony.
"eae,lie said. he would advise him to enter into friendly re- Instead of delaying a constitution, they ought at once to
lations with the natives, and advise them to combine against have given one, in accordance with the patent previously
the boers, telling them that the British Government would sent out. There ought not to be a day's delay in sending it
help
them, and if they would choose three or four to conduct out, and from the moment it was granted the colonists would
their affairs, the Governor of the Cape would send an officer provide for the safety of their own colony.—( Hear, bear.)
to reside amongst them, and aid them with his advice and He considered that every one who gave his sanction to this
directions. The first step was to induce the natives to este- vote sanctioned the present proceediugs of the Government ;
blish a confederacy against the boers, and induce them to in- not that be meant the money should not be paid, but that
'rite the residence of a British officer amongst them, who by refusing the vote at this moment they would compel the
alight command Kafraria, and virtually direct and govern Government to alter its policy.
,e.the whole confederacy. Then the plan was to raise a force Mr. lIAWES was glad to bear, notwithstanding all that
like the Kafrarian police, and impose a tax upon the natives ; had been said by his Hon. Friend, that be admitted this was
and his Lordship expressed a hope that he would bring a vote which could not be refused.—(Bear, hear.) It had
e _in a Bill nest session to extend this to the equator. He been stated that this was a war of aggression and marked by
had quoted enough to show that these wars were ruinous atrocity. He denied both propositions. The policy now
n
1.0 the colony and most burdensome to this country. recommended by Sir H. Smith was that recommended by
The had voted millions to obtain the country between Sir B. D'Urban, and that had formerly been approved by his
y
the Kei and Keisk-amma, but they would spend tens Honourable Friend. There was no intention of extending
of millions before they extended their frontier from the their frontier; certainly not of carrying it to the inland lake
Orange River to the Equator. The frontier policy was now which had been referred to. All that was intended to do was
before a Select Committee, the only material result of which to enforce the law so far as that British subjects who corn-
Would be to fix the responsibility of our future policy on the witted crimes beyond the frontier should be punished for
country instead of the Government. At this moment all those crimes.—(Hear, bear.) With regard to the extension
the Kafir tribes were united against us, and the greatest of of territory in British Kafraria, the policy pursued was pre-
-841, Kra li, had lately joined the confederacy. So far, he had cisely that which had been followed by Sir Benjamin
given a gloomy picture, which would give very little en- a'Urban ; and let it be remembered that the eastern fiontier
couragement to a persistence in the policy which had led of the Cape had never been a peaceful frontier. In 1835
to such a result. But he turned to more encouraging there was an inroad of upwards of 10,000 Kafirs, who
symptoms which had lately occurred. He alluded to the committed the greatest atrocities in the colonies, and Sir
bite arrival of Sir 0. Stockenstrom and Mr. Fairbairn. They Benjamin D'Urban, after quelling that insurrection,
Made a solemn appeal to the Noble Lord at the head of the thought it necessary not to extend the British ter-
Government, stating calmly and deliberately, but most ritory but the British authority, and to advance British
solemnly, the crisis in which their affairs were, and the power in Kafraria; in fact, to defend the frontier of the
danger in which the colony and they themselves and their Cape, not on but beyond the frontier. And this was
Property were involved, pointing out the means at the disc exactly the policy which had since been carried out by Sir
Waal of the Noble Lord for putting an end to the distress, Henry Pottinger and Sir Harry Smith. What was the re-
imploring him humbly, but with the sincerity of men whose suit? Why, is the present case we had not had any incur-
Wealth, whose lives and property, and all they had in the eions in the colony; and British military authority being es•
World, depended on his answer; they placed their case in his tablished, as it were, in the rear of the Kafirs, they had been
Lands. lie might state that the Noble Lord's answer was afraid to enter the colouy, so that up to the time of which
such as to give them the greatest encouragement; and he was speaking no serious damage had been done within its
such as he for one should have anticipated from boundaries, except the Kat River settlement, where peculiar
the Noble Lord, not only from his character and discontent existed. With regard to the extension of the ter-
Peaition, but from his antecedents when at the head ritory northward, and the appointment of a resident, that
of the Colonial-office, in which every one will allow him had been done at the request of the natives themselves, to
to have been one of the best ministers that the colonies protect them against the aggressions of the boers, and not
ever possessed. His answer to their request was, that they for the purpose of holding military possession of the district.
'Would state to him what alterations they proposed, and their He could assure the House also that there was no intention
reasons for proposing them. Their reply was, that they on the part of Government to withhold representative insti-
Wished no alteration whatever, but merely to be put back in tutions from the Cape. It the colonists had not at this mo-
the position in which they were in the Legislative Council, ment a representative constitution, it was entirely their own
only with this material difference, that there should be no fault; and he could not concur either with Mr. Adderley or
Envious legislation necessary on the part of the Legislative Mr. Hume that the Governor was in the least to blame for
Council. They said that if the Noble Lord would only give the delay which had occurred. If the constitution were so
a promise of a constitution freed from any further delay they popular at the Cape, why had they not accepted it? Why
Would not only feel perfectly satisfied, but their gratitude have delayed and discussed it? The truth was that the
Would know no bounds. The Noble Lord's second answer, gentlemen forming the legislative council were indisposed
though as kind and considerate as his first, was yet not quite to become legislative councillors except for one special and
CO encouraging. While the Noble Lord expressed his deep high purpose—for which they were not elected or chosen.
Sympathy with them in their present momentous crisis, yet They were chosen to examine all the functions of members
at the same time while the war lasted, he felt it necessary of a legislative council, and to manage and direct the
to wait for further dispatches for the purpose of judging whole of the affairs of the colony; and they were assured
of the chances of a conclusion to hostilities, before he would that there was no authority for saying that they were
give a definite answer as to the time when they might elected for one special purpose alone. Indeed, Sir Andreas
expect to receive a representative constitution. They con- Stockenstrom accepted petitions upon various subjects, and
aidered that the Noble Lord had held out great encourage-
presented them to the council ; and in the next place, the
inent to them, but at the same time they thought that he letters patent contained words to the effect that the council
Might to take a bolder step, and to carry out his were to make, enact, ordain, and establish laws for the
views more decisively, immediately, and resolutely at good government of the settlement. They met, not simply
once, for they could not see what impediment stood in the to frame a constitution, and when they interposed
Way. Now from the last dispatches, received about a week their vexatious objections, it was to benefit the particular
ago, there was not the slightest chance of the war concluding party to which they belonged, and to which the moat
for many months to come. What, then, was to prevent the important party in the colony were diametrically opposed.
Noble Lord from granting the Constitution at once, which Earl Grey had simply said this, and no more, that whilst a
was allowed to be so immediately necessary? While Sir H. war was raging in the colony, and the governor was on the
smith was engaged in the war beyond the frontier, what was frontier, devoting his whole time and energy to suppress an
to prevent the Noble Lord advising the sending out of a insurrection, and whilst every functionary in the colony was
special commission? Why not send out a man in the posi- disturbed and distracted by the present state of the colony,
tion and rank of Lord Clarendon to Cape Town? The in- it was utterly impossible to throw upon those functionaries
stant the Constitution was given them they would come out the consideration of all the details of a representative con-
as one man to resist this Kafir aggression, and they would stitution which required to be considered dispassionately
take upon themselves, as they did twenty years ago, the calmly, and impartially.—( Hear.) In fact, that whilst war
whole expense of the war. He thanked the Noble Lord was raging, it was impossible to introduce representative in-
most heartily for the encouragement he had given the colo- stitutions with any chance of success, but that the moment
nista at the Cape, and he would put it to him whether the the insurrection was put down and peace was restored, that
discussion upon this vote ought not, for at least a day or two, moment it would be quite in the power of the legislative
be adjourned until a decisive answer upon this subject had council to proceed with the consideration of the subject. It
been given? was said that we had been the aggressors in the case of
Lord J. RUSSELL, who was extremely inaudible through- British Kafiraria, and that we had unnecessarily seized upon
out his speech, was understood to say that the Hon. Mem- that territory—but the fact was that the colonists to a man
bee's speech went upon the supposition that it was in the were in favour of that quasi extension of territory. If the
power of the colonists, if they gleased to exert it, to prevent colony of the Cape of Good Hope was to be protected and
all these aggressions from a savage tribe who were making peace preserved, clearly some change of policy must be
war upon her Majesty's subjects merely for the sake of adopted with regard to British Kafiraria. The hon. Gen-
making war, for it did not appear that they bad any other tleman (Mr. Adderley) had spoken of the " strong arm of
object in view. Now, any man who looked into the history of defence." What did that mean ? Why, nothing else
of the Cape colony, since and before it came into their pos- than the old commando system, which was marked with
session, must see that the state of things there was wholly such atrocity and bloodshed that it was lound impossible to
different from that as represented by the Hon. Gentleman. maintain it in the opinion of good men either in the colony
The Dutch, in the first instance, had extended their settle- or in this country.—(Hear.) It wee' tharetbre, abandoned ;
meats and dwellings beyond the immediate frontier of Cape and when he (Mr. Hawes) asked Mr. Fairbairn if he would
Town; but the Katir and other native tribes had from time revert to that system, he at once said, " No, I wish to have
to time rushed down upon them, destroying their possessions established a disciplined military force on the frontier, and
and carrying off their herds of cattle. In 1845, during the not to revert to the old system.' Mr. Fairbairn also told
last war, 10,000 men had entered within the frontier where him that the colony would not undertake to pay the ex.
the Cape farmers lived, and after destroying their farm- pense °Ala rof this or any other war. In conclusion, Mr.
that, from all the information he could gather,
houses carried away all their cattle. Surely there was no awes said
wanton act then committed on the part of the colonists he was satisfied that the policy now pursued was the only
How then could it be said that the mother country would policy which would secure the frontier; and in a great mea-
throw all the expense upon them of defending themselves sure it had secured the frontier in the present war.
from being murdered? Would not these men naturally say, Mr. V. SMITH agreed with Lord J. Russell that when a
"We will defend ourselves and our homes as well as we war was raging at the Cape, which required all the energies
can; but you, as the sovereign power, should protect us, of every person employed, it was not the time to discuss the
and we must have your aid." The Hon. Member seemed to question whether we should confer upon the colonists repre-
suppose that the whole aggression had originally come from sentative institutions or not. But the House was justified
the colonists, and therefore the inhabitants would themselves in entering upon matters which were not strictly relevant to
be willing to defray the expenses of the war. The Hon. the question, because they had unfortunately no other oppor-
Member had, no doubt, received some assurance of the tunity of discussing these matters, except upon some ques-
kind, but he (Lord J. Russell) could not find that there was tion like the present. His Noble Friend said the only ques-
ever any public assurance of such a character given to the tion was, whether they would vote this money or not? but
Government. They had never said, "Give us a represen- he (Mr. V. Smith) thought there was a far more important
tative constitution, and we will support the expenses of the question at issue, and that was, how often these votes were
war." On the contrary, the gentleman to whom the Hon. to be repeated, and what interest the people of England bad
Member alluded, Mr. Fairbairn, had used very different lan- in this colony which justified such an expenditure. He
guage before a Select Committee, and had very prudently agreed, however, with those who had stated that the war
declined to commit himself at all by any pledge that the was strictly an Imperial war —that it was our war, and
colonists would sustain the expenses of the war. Such being not the war of the colonists—and he did not believe the
the case it was impossible to take any step that would give colonists would have willingly engaged in it— neither did
ns perfect security on this subject. He was quite aware that he think if they had willingly
engaged in it, that it would
the war was one of a peculiar nature, and that many savage have been carried on in the way that it had been carried on.
acts were committed; but he was afraid that no plan could If, thee, this was a war which the colonists would not un-
be devised which would be quite so successful as to enable us dertake, of course it was a war we could not ask them to
to say that they were free from the danger of a Kafir war. pay for. Therefore the question was, whether they were to
The policy adopted by Sir Benjamin D'Urban and his sue- pay for it or not; and, in his opinion, we could not posi-
cessors, Sir H. Pottinger and others, was still pursued. sibly ask them to pay this 300,000/.—(Hear, hear.) The
Surely the Hon. Member would not recommend us to sup- Honourable Member then impressed on the Government
port the commando system, under which persons going out the necessity of the exercise of c cution with regard to
with their rifles could shoot any of the natives they met, the Cape, and criticised the policy of Government in first
whether they were engaged in any predatory operations or agreeing to the appointment of a Committee of the House
otherwise. At the present moment the only question to be of Commons, and in subsequently nominating a Commission
cronsideredevas whether this country shall bear the expenses to inquire into the affairs of the colony. With the greatest
of the war. It must be recollected that when the proposal respect for his Noble Friend's judgment, he did think that a
for a representative constitution came over here, Lord Stan- more indiscreet course, as regarded the maintenance of the
ley, who was then Colonial Secretary, discouraged the pro- security and prosperity of the colony could scarcely have
ject except with certain conditions. It was subsequently been adopted. He trusted that the Government would here-
resolved by the Government to establish a representative after be more considerate iu stating their case when they
constitution in the Cape, and Earl Grey found fault with the called on the House to vote the public money.
decision to which Lord Stanley had come. Unfortunately Lord J. RUSS aLL, after what his Right Hon. Friend had
those persons whom Sir H. Smith had called to the Legislative said, must offer some explanation of the conduct of the Go-
Council with a view that they should assist him in carrying vernment in the matter. The Right Hon. Gentleman's com-
out the details of a representative constitution—instead of aid- plaint appeared to him to be very inconsistent. The Right
ing him set themselves to thwart him by every means of ob- Hon. Gentleman stated that he (Lord J. Russell) had said
atruction which they could think of. It was perfectly obvious that the question now before the House was as to voting this
that if they had then said that they were disposed public money, and that he had omitted all mention of the
to accept the instrument as sent from London, and if. they question of the frontier war, and the policy to be adopted in
proposed to fill up the details themselves, and to abide by the future. He (Lord J. Russell) had certainly stated that the
decision of the majority, the representative constitution would question immediately before the House was the voting this
have been in operation now in the Cape. It was, therefore, money; but so far from not bringing before the House
entirely their own doing that they were now deprived of a those questions the Right Hon. Gentleman referred to, he
constitution. He had only two things now to say. One was had brought forward a motion for a Select Committee,
that the Government was fully determined to carry into stating at the same the history, so far as he understood
effect their proposal for a representative constitution to the it, of those frontier disputes; and then when he proposed
Cape. The other point was this—that however anxious a Select Committee for the purpose of eliciting farther
they were to introduce such a constitution into the Cape— information on the subject, the Right Honourable Gentle-
at that moment, and certainly after the last dispatches more man was the first to object to it. He could not under-
than before, they felt that there were insuperable difficulties stand, when he objected to the Select Committee, how he
to the immediate putting into force the powers of that con- could also object to the want of information respecting the
stitution. There was now a war raging in the Cape, and necessity for this vote ; for it was not usual for the Govern-
the whole mind and energy of the governor would of neces- ment to propose resolutions stating that, in their opinion,
city prevent him from giving proper attention to the working such and such a policy was the best to pursue at the Cape
of a constitution, and the executive would, in fact, be unable of hood Hope, or in this frontier war, or in dealing with the
to carry into effect a representative constitution. That was Kafirs. General resolutions of that kind were not usually
the great difficulty—that a great portion of those who should proposed by Government. The Hon. Gentleman said that
take an active part in the discussions were themselves en- he (Lord J. Russell) having objected to the appointment of
gaged in the war. The main question before them, as to a Commission, had nevertheless appointed Commissioners to
whether they would vote the sum proposed for the expenses go out to the Cape. What he (Lord J. Russsll) objected to
of the Kafir war, depended upon this very general question. was the appointment of Commissioners to go and supersede
In 1819 and subsequently they encouraged emigrants to go Sir H. Smith. What he desired was to enable Sir H. Smith,
out to the Cape and to settle upon the frontier. These emi- while engaged in the conduct of the war, to have certain
grants were exposed from time to time to incursions from the persons to aid him who were well acquainted with the co-
savage
tribes. The question, then, was, whether they were Tony, and carry on such communications with the Kafirs as
to leave them to be overpowered by those savage tribes? might lead to a peaceful settlement of the matters in dispute.
He believed upon that question there could be no doubt. He He hoped his Right Hon. Friend would profit by the evi-
was therefore confident that the vote being founded upon deuce laid before the Committee, and perceive that it was
simple justice would be agreed to. not a war for extension of territory, but for the protection of
Mr. HUME said there was only one sentiment uttered the colonists, that they were now engaged in; and the
whole question was how they could be best protected. In-
by the Noble Lord of which he approved, and that was that
the Government were determined to carry out the promise stead ot baying those perpetual disturbances on the frontier
witdh the Kafirs, and shooting them down whenever they
given by them last session of a representative constitution.
He had seldom heard a speech that more misrepresented a taletr
1.3 aggressions to carry off cattle, it was the opinion of
amin d'Urban, Sir Peregrine Maitland, and Sir H.
case than the speech of the Noble Lord had done. The Noble °1
P_o,,thtiinnengtjeife, thata it would be far the better way to have posts
Lord seemed to forget altogether that in 1828 the inhabitants
Kafir
civilized territory,
modeand
of to
life, endeavourand
thus
preventto r e reconcile
otnhcoisl ee
had signed a petition to this country, containing a statement within
them to a mo.rile
systemting theh sd
colonists,he eh
that if they obtained a responsible government they would
disturbances
take upon themselves the whole expense of war, and relieve
with a view to protecting aanddoptneodt, atondtaseoloexly.
the mother country from any such demands. Since then tension of i)territory.
they had often repeated the same declaration. But they •
would not menage any of their wars of injustice—of wars Mr. BRIGHT said they were all agreed as to
which the C the dissatis-
provoked by the most wanton encroachments by us upon feed state in ape Colony was at present, though
the property of others. lie had always encouraged emigre- not as to what was to be done under the circumstances. He
tion—at the same time he demanded English institutions thought the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ad-
for the emigrants, wherever they went. lie had never re- derly) was that which the Government ought to adopt; for
commended them to go to Kafraria amongst savages, or to to the delay which had occurred in giving to the colonists
attempt to drive people Irons the property 'which they the constitutional government which they demanded was to
possessed, and thus exciting war and acts of vio- be attributed that discontent which deprived them of all
lence in return. The Noble Lord avoided stating sympathy with the governor in his efforts to put au end to
the most important part of the question. In the last the war. The Noble Lord objected that Sir H. Smith was
dispatch there was accompanying it a map of Kafiraria. at present so busily engaged in the war that he could not
This was a new territory, seized upon by us. It was attend to the question of the constitutional government to
beyond the Cape, and did not form any part of it. The be conferred on the colony, and the Hon. Secretary (Hr.
Noble Lord forgot to tell them that Sir H. Smith Hawes) added, that the functionaries of the colonial govern-
was constituted Governor over the new territory of Kafraria, anent were so distracted by the present calamitous state of
the people of which had not anything in common with the affairs, that they would not be able to undertake the matter.
inhabitants of the Cape. Were not these acts of hostility Sir H. Smith might be very capable of carrying on the war
and aggression upon our part? Did we not take possession 'with ability, but he did not think he
had shown any
of those very lands upon which the cattle of that people particular capacity for the government of a colony,
existed? We went out of our district to attack them. The and it was most unfortunate that they always sent out
war Was not in the Cape, but in those territories whieh we a military governor to the colonies, or if they sent a
have robbed the natives of; and the people of England civilian he was one who had a bad banking
would be obliged to pay not only ror the past war, but the account, and could not remain at home. But the Noble
war that was then going on. Kafiraria was about one-third Lord's argument, if it were good for anything, went .to
of the extent of the whole pomaioni of the cape. Our i thLs—that the Weal* pintail bare to wait until the end

LON DON,

of the war, whether that be one or two years, before they
could g,t, that constitutional government which the Noble
Lord himself thought was so necessary for them. They
on:4la to endeavour seriously to remove the discontent of
the colony. The feeling of discontent was so great that it
was only the limited means of the colonists which prevented
their passive resistance of last year taking a more active
form at the present time; and if the interests of the colonists
demanded it, they ought not for a moment to permit any
delicacy for the feelings of Sir H. Smith to stand in the
way of tlfe proper course to be adopted. He thought the
Government would do well to adopt the suggestion of the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adderley).
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the Committee which sat
last year, and of which he was a member, had been actu-
ated by the most sincere desire to give to the colonists free
political institutions. The measures founded on the recom-
mendation of that Committee were most acceptable to the
colonists, and it was only owing to the unfortunate circum-
stances which had occurred that those measures had not
been carried into effect before the present time. There was
no intention whatever of withholding free institutions from
the coloev.
Mr. HUME urged the Government at once to take the
requisite steps to induce the colonists to co-operate cordially
with the Government in putting down the war
Mr. ADDERLEY said, as it, appeared the Noble Lord did
not intend to give the colonists a constitution till the war

was over -
Lord J RUSSELL said he Lad not said any such thing.
Tha constitution would be granted when it was seen fit, in
the peeseet state of affairs, to grant it. He wished to reserve
to the Government the free decision of the time and circum-
stances—that was all.
At ter a iew more words from Lord J. RUSSELL,
Mr. ADDERLEY moved that the Chairman report
progress.
Mr. BRIGHT suggested that as the facts respecting the
fitness of the colony for a constitution might present them-
selves in another light to the Noble Lord by the arrival of
the next mail, he suggested the motion should be withdrawn.
Lord NAAS joined in the recommendation of the Hon.
Member. He considered the 'declaration of the Noble Lord
to have changed the position of the question.
Mr. WAKLEY said the Under-Secretary for the Colonies
had stated the coantitution would not be granted till the war
was over.
Mr. HAWES denied that he had made any such state-
ment. He only said that it would be impossible to grant it
while the governor was on the frontier.
The vote was then agreed to, and ordered to be reported
to the House; and
The SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
BUSINESS ON MONDAY.
In answer to Mr. HUME,
The CEIANCELLOK of the EXCHEQUER stated that
he proposed on Monday to take the second reading of the
Customs Bill, then the second reading of the Inhabited
Householders Bill, and then a Committee of Supply.
INCOME AND PROPERTY-TAX COMMUTEE.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. HUME moved the names of the Committee on the
income and property-tax, of which he had given notice, viz. :
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Thomas Baring, Mr.
Cobden, Mr. Disraeli, Mr. Horsman, Mr. Healey, Mr.
Vesey, Mr. F. Mackenzie, Mr. J. Wilson, Mr. Ricardo, Mr.
Ri3ebuck, Colonel Romilly, Lord Harry Vane, and Mr
Sotheron.
Colonel SIBTHORP complained that the army and navy
were not represented on this committee, though this gross
and unjustifiable tax was laid on them. One of each
profession ought to be on the Committee to represent these
interests.
Mr. HUME was sorry that the list did not meet the
wish of his Honourable Friend, but it was impossible to
please everybody. There was a military officer on the Com-
mittee.
The first name was then agreed to.
On the second name being put,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said Mr. Baring was already on
three Committees, and he hoped would be exempt.
This and the remaining names were then adopted, and the
Committee appointed.
HOME-MADE SPIRITS IN BOND.
Lord NAAS complained that the Government had taken
every possible means, by delay, to obstruct his bringing for-
ward his measure, on which three divisions had been taken,
and which on each division had received the sanction of the
House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repelled the
imputation.
Mr. HUME said the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer ought to yield to the opinion of the
House when strongly expressed on any question.
Mr. DUNCAN thought that Scotland ought to be con-
sidered in this question.
The report was then received.
The Administration of Criminal Justice Improvement Bill
was read a second time.
The Petty Session (Ireland) Bill went through Committee.
Mr. SCULLY wished to know what portion of the Bill
was to be retained, and what portion abandoned?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE had stated the previous night
what he proposed to do.
The Common Lodging-house Bill was read a third time.
METROPOLIS POLICE BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this Bill,
Colonel SIBTHORP rose to press the second reading of
this Bill. He had been to great expense of labour and money
on account of this Bill; but for the advantage of his country
he regretted neither. He could tell the House there was a
great feeling throughout the country in favour of this Bill.
He feared neither vans nor barrel-organs; but others might
not be, like hi r self, a soldier; and they would, perhaps,
entertain different feelings. He had evidence to show that
in 1846 the Right Hon. Gentleman had his attention drawn
to the mischiefs to be apprehended from advertising vans,
but had neglected to take,the proper precautions to stop
the mischief. Constant complaints were made of these ad-
vertising vans, which of late had wonderfully increased.
Why were such vehicles allowed to go forth, to the terror of
peaceable individuals and the.danger of their lives ? It was
the duty of the Home Secretary to take steps to stop the
nuisance. If he did not succeed with his Bill, he had at
least the consolation of knowing he had done his du'y. If he
could not " command success" he could at least " deserve it."
—( Laughter.) He had ventured to hope the Right Hon.
Gentleman would have acceded to the second reading of the
Bill, and allowed it to go into Committee; when any modifi-
cations that might be needed could have been made. He
begged humbly to ask the Right lion. Gentleman whether
he would allow the Bill to be read a second time pro forma?
—(Laughter.) If not, he should console himself with having
done his duty, and with regretting that a public servant
should have so far forgotten his duty as to meet him by a
refusal.
Sir G. GREY was satisfied the Hon. and Gallant Member
had solely the public interests in view in bringing forward
this Bill. The Hon. and Gallant Member had not explained
the contents of the Bill. He fully admitted the annoyance
and mischief of advertising vans, but upon looking into
the Bill, he found there had been, as he expected,
a legal difficulty in defining what was an adver-
tising van and whet was not. The clause in the
Bill intended to be applicable to these vans was so general
and so extended as to include persons carrying placards, or
tradesmen's carts. He thought it would be better to leave
these nuisances to the police, who had general orders to re-
move all dangerous obstructions in the public thoroughfares.
But this was not all. The Bill extended to street musicians,
and the clause was also very sweeping. He would state
what the law was. He had already stated, that according
to the Police Act, any street musician who refused to cease
playing on being requested to do so by any householder, ren-
dered himself liable to a penalty of 40s. The Police Act
would extend to those instruments mentioned by the Hon.
and Gallant Member in his Bill, but he thought that to stop
all street music within the metropolitan district would be to
deprive the inhabitants of a very rational enjoyment. He
must, therefore, move that the Bill be read a second time
that day six months.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that, in 1846, the Right Hon.
Baronet had stated, through his secretary, that the nuisance
of advertising vans would be considered in any future amend-
ment of the Police Act, but that it was not expedient to
introduce a measure to remedy that particular grievance. la
the present state of the House it was useless dividing. He
had only discharged his duty in introducing the Bill.
Mr. MANGLES thought this an important matter, as, in
consequence of the increased traffic, the great thoroughfares
of the inetropo!is were absolutely choked, and these adver-
tising vans not only increased the evil, but endangered life,
as he himself had experienced. Something he thought ought
to be done in the matter.
The second reading was then negatived without a division.
On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, leave was given
to bring in a Bill to provide facilities for owners and lessees
of mines in Ireland to obtain entry on lands for searching for
and working such mines. Also a Bill to consolidate and
amend the Acts relating to certain offences and other mat-
ters as to which justices of the peace exercise summary juris-
diction in Ireland.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL brought in the Chancery
Reform Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time on Friday next.
The House then adjourned at One o'clock.