The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-04 00:00:00

THE BANK CHARTER.

Lord ALTHORP then moved that the House resolve
itself into a Committee on the Bank Charter.
Mr. HERRIES wished to know whether the report in
circulation was or was not true, that it was the intention
of the Noble Lord to postpone, at least beyond the pre-
sent session, that part of the Bank Charter Act which
related to country banking ?

Lord ALTHORP said in reply—l had intended before
proceeding in the Committee to make the statement I am
now about to make. The resolutions which I proposed re-
specting joint-stock banking companies in the country
formed a part of the measure to which I attached great im-
portance. To that part of it also the greatest objections
have been urged—l mean that part which enabled joint-
stock banks of deposit to be established on a limited lia-
bility in every part of the country. In bringing the mea-
sure forward, I certainly anticipated that I should be op-
posed by a very powerful body of men. In that
anticipation I have not been disappointed.—(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) From every information I could collect
upon the subject, I find that they are a more powerful
giody than I had imagined—(Hear, hear)—and the pro
lability is, that on that account I should not be
able to carry that part of it into proper effect,
or it ultimately, not during the present session of Parlia-
went.—(Hear, hear.) With that view I do feel, I may
ass his Majesty's Government altogether feel, it would
not be desirable to press that portion of the measure during
the present session. It is therefore my intention to postpone
all the part of the plan which I brought forward relative
to country hankers, excepting what required them to cool•
pound fur the stamp duties, in order that the country
might knew their real circulation. I should be seri), in
making this announcement, if it were supposed
that I withdrew this part of the plan because I was con-
vinced by the arguments adduced that I was wrong.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) I certainly am not convinced of that.
wish rather to put it on its really true ground, that I
believe I am not able to carry it—(Hear, hear, and loud
Daughter)--I mean during the present session. I beg,
therefore, to state, in answer to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, that I do not mean to press that part of the Bill, as
I have stated, which relates to country banking.
Mr. BERRIES rejoiced with the whole body of country
'sulkers in the statements that bad been made by the
Noble Lord. He wished to put another question to the
Noble Lord. The House had passed a resolution as to
the project of in eking the Balk of England notes a legal
tender ; he wished to know whether that Noble L •rd in.
tended to mike that part of the resolution the subject of
a separate Bill, or to include it in the one that Fruit been
already introduced. He thought the measure looked very
much like an intended bonus for the Bank.
Lord ALTHORP thought that the subject w(s an con-
nected with the whole measure, that it ought to be taken
into consideration altogether. No bonus was intended by
it to the Bank, and if it were found productive of incon-
venience, it would be in the power of the House to make
any al let aim's.
Mr. BARING said he had certainly heard with much
pleasure the declaration of the Noble Lord, that he did
not intend to abandon that resolution. The House
thought the country generally had no objection to that
resolution, and that their hostili.y ag :inn the measure
venerally was removed by that part which the Noble Lord
had given up for this session. But though he approved
of the principle, he objected to mixing it up with the
feagesial of the Bank Charter. There were other r, solu •
fa:4 61 the same kind. The one relating to the usury laws
was not connected with the Bank Charter. He (lid not
expect se
wuela from that resolution as some Hon. Gen-
tierces, but be wee not opposed to it ; but it had nothing
to do with the renzeival of the Bank Charter. In the corre-
spondeace of the Noble Lord with the Bank, it el/9 not
stated that these things were part of the bargain; but in
the correspondence it was said we a.e going to do and
so ; we are going to alter the usury laws; and us the
ultimate consideration the country was entitled to have
compensation augmented. It was rather too much, there
fore, to say that the Bank might not put a veto on the
arrangement as far as it was concerned, if the regulation
about the usury laws were abandoned. The p. in, iple of
making the Bank of England paper a legal tender was too
important to form part only of another measure. It
ought to be the subject of a specific measure, and nut mixed
up with the Bank Charter. .
Lord ALTHORP 'stated that the part.of the plan which
be had abandoned was undoubtedly part of the
lie thought, ou that polar, that the Daub of L bland

TPR V

might, if it pleased, abandon the bargain. The establish-
ment of joint-stock banks, not of issue, and with limited
responsibility, was proposed to the Bank, and the consent
of the Rank was founded in part of that. If the Bank uf
England should consider that it had a right to abandon
the proposition, it might do a and he should have no
reason to complain. He had written a private letter to
the Bank, announcing his intention, and if the Bank chose
to abandon the bargain, it was at liberty to do so.
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY asked a question, but
neither the question nor Lord Althorp's answer was dis-
tinctly audible i❑ the Gallery.
The House then went into Committee, when the Chair-
man read the fourth resolution.

Mr. CLAY considered it the duty of the Members of
that House, as guardians of the public purse, to come to
the assistance of the Noble Lord, as he was evidently over-
matched. He had certainly the misfortune of diffiring
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the 3d of July,
but he bad the consolation of agreeing with the Chancellor
of the Exchequer of the Ist of April last ; and he believed
the proposition he was about to make was identical with
that made to the Bank by the Noble Lord at that period.
The test by which this question should he examined, as
admitted both by the Noble Lord and the Bank of Eng-
land, was, on what terms would a new Company undertake
the business? He was quite convinced a new Company
would do it much cheaper ; and, in his opinion, the House
would completely stultify itself, if it consented to ratify a
bargain founded on such delusive accounts as those pre-
sented by the Bank of England. Allowing for a reserve of
7,500,000/, the Bank had the disposal in round numbers
of 16,000,000/. of money, on which, according to their own
showing, they made an interest of 467,875/. ; but from this
they deducted 330,000/. Now, of what items was this sum
composed ? The first was 147,0001., being 1 per cest. on
their capital, in uddition to the 3 per cent. allowed by Go-
vernment, they contending that they ought to make 4 per
cent. This was a most astonishing item, for it was admit-
ted, that of the 16,000,0001. of which they had the disposal,
they could not mike 4 per cent., nor even 3, but only
2!, and yet the Bank had the assurance to insert this
item.—(Hear.) Why, give them back their 14,500,000/.,
and what would they do with it? If they placed it out
in the funds, they would not get 43,000/. a year more
than Government allowed them.—( Hear.) The next
item was most extraordinary. The Bank charged the
Government for rent of offices to transact the public busi-
ness no less than 55,3001. a year. Was not this mon-
strous? A new building might be erected for the pur-
pose, on a most liberal scale, for 13,000/. a year. Under
the bead of forgery, they charged 40,0001. a year as an
average ; but the years which they took to form an ave-
rage included the year in which the Bank lost 360,000/.
by Fauntleroy alone. In 1821 the loss was only 1,8001.
So much for this calculation.—(Hear.) Ready, however,
as they were to speak about these losses, there was one
large source of profit which they had not the candour or
honour to notice—he meant the large number of outstand-
ing notes, fur which they had received fall value, but
which they would never be called upon to pay. Of notes
outstanding upwards of twenty years there were 280,000/. ;
upwards of fifteen years, 95,000/. ; upwards of ten years,
119,000/. ; upwards of five years, 511,000/, the greater
part of which they would never be called upon to pay.
These were all 51. notes and upwards ; but, in addition,
there were 1/. and 2/ notes outstanding, to the amount of
297,000/. ; making, in the whole, 1,234,0001., of which
they had not the candour to say one word. They also charged
21,500/. for pensions. Surely they themselves ought to pay
the pensions of those men by whom they obtained the
twenty millions ; for if they put them down to the public
debt, they might as well be charged at once upon the
Consolidated Fund. This amounted to 190,000/ a year,
which, added to 180,0001. a year, admitted profits derived
from the management of the public debt, and the profits
on the circulation, amounted to 370,000/. a year total
profit derived by the Bin'.; from their connection with
Government.—(Hear.) The advantages which the Bank
would derive from the new proposed Charter were very
great. If the Government paid off the quarter of the debt
due to the Bank, and the Bank did not return that to the
proprietors, they could still continue to pay 8 per cent. on
their Stock, and their Stock would still bear their present
price of 2041. or 205/. ; whereas, if they were to cease
to be a Company to-morrow, their Stock would not be
worth 130!. The difference was the advantages derived
by the Bank at the public expense. If the management
of the National Debt and Currency were to be offered to a
new Company in the City, with a capital of ten millions,
the shares would be subscribed to-morrow, and would in a
very short time bear forty per cent. premium. The Hon.
Member concluded by moving the following amendment :
..—cf That it is the opinion of this Committee that the
allowances and remuneration at present secured by law
to the Bank of England for the management of the public
debt, and for services performed to the public should cease,
and that such services should be gratuitously performed."
Lord ALTHORP said it seemed to be thought that the
Bank capital was only employed in advances upon Govern-
ment securities. It was forgotten that it was also employed
in a great part in advances upon mortgages. The effect
of the repayment of the 14,500,000/. upon these, ought
to be considered as throwing so large a sum of money into
the market. He admitted the charge relative to the
amount of forgeries might not he quite fair, but he thought
the statements on the other side also required some modifi-
cation. He should leave it out of the account, as it
certainly was unfair, and he allowed he never considered
it much otherwise. In answer to the inquiry whether he
had any prospect of establishing another Bank of Issue in
the metropolis and its vicinity, he considered it would he
impossible to obtain private individuals who would enter
into any such speculation ; and to show that, he entered
into a variety of calculations. Taking the Bank of Eng-
land as the model, the average circulation of such a hank
of issue would be 20,000.0001. ; of the 7,000,000/. to
which the deposits amounted, 3,500,000/. were private
deposits, and 3,500,000/. were Government deposits.
All these together made 27,000,000/. The surplus capital
which would be required for the management of the
banking business would hardly be less than 3,000,000/.—
making altogether 30,000,000/. They must then have a
reserve fund of 10,000,000/. not invested in securities, as
houses, buildings, or other things yielding a profit, leaving
thus 20,000,000/. as the amount of capital upon which
they might expect to obtain profit. For the management
of the debt the Bank incurred an expense of 160,000/.--
putting out of the account the amount of forgeries, which
might be fairly set cff against the chance of the notes not
coming iu ; the expense of the establishment in general
was 106,000/. ; that of keeping up the circulation
70,0001. ; that of the banking department 40,000/.
—making in all 376,0001.; taking the statement of the
Bank, which he admitted to be too high in many parti-
culars. With respect to the profit obtained on the
20,000,000/., the public securities must be taken as a
test. Allowing 14,000/. to be vested in the Funds at 3i
per cent.—that would make an income of 455,000/. Six
millions, vested in Exchequer Bills, at 24 per cent.,
would produce 135.000/. Rents, and other profitable
securities, would yield 75,000/. The interest of the
7,000,000/. which must be reckoned as lent to Govern-
ment, would, at 3 per cent., produce 210,000/. ; and
the allowance for the management of the Debt would be
248,000/. Thus, the whole income would amount to
1,123,000/. From this sum, in reckoning the profits
upon the capital of the Bank, must be deducted the
376,000/. of expenses, as before stated, which would leave
717,000/. for the profits ; but that includes the 248,000/.
for the management of the Debt, which it would be ne-
cessary to deduct. There would then be left 500,000/.,
or exactly 5 per cal% upon a real capital of 10,000,0001.
which would be necessary to be kept. The profits of the
Bank on the new scheme would not exceed 6 per cent. ;
and it was not likely that any Company could be found
to establish a bank of issue upon such terms. When he
made a bargain—as to buy a horse or anything else—he
al ways considered whether he could not get another
cheaper, and he hail pursued the same course with respect
to the hank of England Charter. This House, :rum the
number of practical men which it contained, was well
able to decide whether he had made an improvident bar.
gain ; and he entirely agreed with those who said that
they were not bound to ratify the bargain of Government.
If he had made an improvident bargain, the mischief
rested with him.
Mr. A'I'TSVOOD observed, that the House was not
the proper place for discussing a question which branched
into so many details, and be should, therefore, propose
another amendment, to the effect, " That a Select Com-
mittee should be appointed, to consider on the one hand,
what the public ought to pay to the Bank for conducting
its money transactions ; and, on the other band, to eon
eider that other topic, which seemed to be almost lost
sight of—what the Bank of England ought to pay to the
public for the monopoly which they were about to give it,
of banking on a large scale in the metropolis and its vi •
cinity." Ia 1780 the amount of circulation by the Bank
of England was very different
.from what it was at the
present time ; for it, was only six or eight millions. In
1800 the Bank lent Government, as a compensation for
the extension of their privileges, eleven millions and e
half at three per cent. At that period the ordinary rate
of interest was five per cent. The advantage, therefore,
to the public was two per cent. on that sum, or 230,000/.
Now, however, that the Bank were to lord Govet mnent
the same sum at three per cent., it should he recollected
that the Noble Lord at the head of the Exchequer might
easily borrow the eleven millions to-morrow in tie money
wurhet at ti rte and a halt p.r cent. The benefit, there-

fore, that the public would derive from the arrange-
talent would 'ibe only a fourth of the benefit derived I
from the arrangement of 1800. He could not con.
ceive it possible that the Committee would, in the
absence of all evidence, agree to a plan which it was clear
was not understood by his Majesty's Ministers themselves.
Let it he recollected that we were in a situation which
called for the utmost economy. They had now a large
property to dispose of, namely—an exclusive privilege for
a period of 21 years ; and were they to dispose of it in the
want of information exhibited by the Noble Lord ? Bat
the present proposition bore the same marks of confusion
which were stamped upon all the measures of his :Majesty's
present Government; upon the Irish Coercion Bill, upon
the Irish Church Bill, and upon their various other propo-
sitions. The compensation to be granted to the Bank of
England for transacting the public business was, in his
opinion, excessive ; especially when it was considered that
the Bank of England bad, on an average, four millions of
public balances in their hands. 150,0001. was the highest
charge made by them at a period of the war, when the
amount of debt was considerably larger than at present.
It should be recollected that by the present exclusive pri-
vileges granted to the Bank of England, the ba.,kers of
London lost the advantages which they might derive from
establishing a circulation of their own. The benefit that
would be enjoyed by the Bank of England in consequence
of making Bank of England notes a legal tender, were
equal to those of a circulatixa of five millions.—(Hear,
hear.) When the shopkeepers of Regent-street waited
upon the Noble Lord to complain of distress, and to
urge the repeal of the shop and window tax, tho Noble
Lord appealed to the poverty of the Exchequer as a
reason why it was impossible to comply with their wishes.
He ought to have done the same to the Directors of the
Bank of England. It the Hun. Member for the Tower
Hamlets would withdraw his amendment, he (Mr. Att-
wood) would move a resolution to the effect, that it was
the opinion of the Committee that a Select Committee be
appointed to inquire anti report what ought to be the
amount of compensation from the Bank of England to the
public for the renewal of their Charter, and what ought
to be the amount of compensation from the public to the
Bank of England for the transaction of the public business.
Mr. CLAY was quite prepared to withdraw his
amendment, in order to make room for that of the Hon.
Member for Whitehaven. He perfectly agreed with the
Hon. Member that the House were not in possession of
adequate means of deciding the important question tinder
consideration.

Lord ALTHORP observed, that even if the Hon.
Member for the Tower Hamlets were to withdraw his
amendment, the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Whitehaven could not be proposed in the Committee. A
Committee of the whole House must dispose in one way
or another of the business before it, and could not refer
that business to the consideratien of a Select Committe.
Ile only cAirse to take would be to move that the Chair-
man do leave the Chair, which, if the Committee agreed to
that proposition, would give the Hon. Member for White-
haven an opportunity of moving for the appointment of a
Select Committee.

Mr. CLAY accordingly withdrew his amendment, and
Mr. ATT\VOOD moved that the Chairman do report
progress, end ask leave to sit again.
Mr. ROBlNSON—Although he certainly thought that
the terms obtained by the Bank were too advantageous,
begged to ask whether it was likely, if the Select Com-
mittee decided that the offer to the Bank should be consi-
derably diminished, the Bank would consent to such an
arrangement? It had been supposed by the Hon. Memher
for the Tower Hamlets, that to obtain a renewal of their
Charter, the Bank would he ready to do the public busi-
ness for nothing. It appeared in the evidence before the
Committee, however, that any such readiness had been de-
nied by one of the Bank Directors. He confessed that he
was not inclined to disturb the existing bargain. It had
been contended by the Hon. Member for the Tower Ham-
lets, that there would be no new difficulty in making a new
arrangement with a jeint-stock company, to whom privi-
leges should be given similar to those now enjoyed by the
Bank of England. He did nut think that a plan of that
kind would he so easy. Although he thought the Noble
Lord—(he would not say had hesn outwitted in his nego-
tiation with the Bank, for he really was not of opinion
that that had been the case, but, on the contrary, thought
the Noble Lord had been too candid in his adMissions on
that subject)—had made a disadvantageous bargain, he be-
lieved that one great cause of his having done so was, that
the question had been driven off to too late a period ; and
that the Noble Lord had thought it absolutely necessary
that the arrangement with the Bank should be concluded
in the present session. Looking at the whole question,
although he believed the Bank had made a bargain advan•
tageous to themselves, and somewhat unfavourable to the
public, he thought it would he an inconvenient course to
adopt the proposition of the Hon. Member far Whitehaven.
Mr. WALLACE, upon the whole, should express his
approbation of the plan ; and though the arrangements
were not, in his opinion, of the profitable nature for the
country that they might have been, still there seas so much
sound principle in the measure as to deserve his support.
There was, however, one part of the measure that he should
watch ; he wished to see both Ireland and Scotland receive
the benefit of the legal tender clause, should that part of
the plan appear to work well.
Mr. BARING agreed with the Hon. Member for the
Tower Hamlets, that the Noble Lord had made a bargain
with the Behls, and submitted to conaitioes that he would
not have acquiesced in had he had more time to show his
firmness on the question. He admitted that the bargain
was not so profitable to the country as it might have been;
hut then there was some necessity that the bargain should
be made; and if it had cost the country 50,0001., or even
100,0001. more than it would now cost, he should not
think the money thrown away in preserving the country
tram the shock to public credit that would have been
given, had a different course been pursued. He believed
that in this bargain the Noble Lord had been too much
influenced by the fear of being obliged to establish a second
Bank of England. He need not have feared that so much,
for the Bauk would hardly have driven him to such a
course. The Bank, as a private bank, would be acting
under great disadvantages. Ile wile perfectly convinced
that if the Noble Lord had made a proposal which the
public had thought reasonable, the holders of bank stock
would have made their Directors consent to it, and the
moneyed interest of the country would have supported the
Government in the arrangement. He did not altogether
approve of what the Noble Lord hail done ; but he cer-
tainly objected to the motion of his Hon. Friend, the
Member for Whitehaven.
Mr. CA YLEY thanked the Noble Lord for the conces-
sions he hail made to the country bankers, and should
withdraw the motion of which he had given notice on that
subject.
Mr. P. THOMSON was not called on to contend that
the sum fixed on in the arrangements between the Govern.
merit and the Bank was altogether what, under all possible
circumstances, should have been settled between them ; but
the question was, whether the Government and that House
were to run the risk of the refusal of the Bank, supposing
them to take exaggerated views of their own interests and
of the profits and loss of this arrangement, to accede to
the proposed plan ; and if such was to be the case, whet
would be the condition of the public? With regard to
the proposition of the Hon. Member for Wititebeven, he
must say he agreed most fully with the Hon. Member for
Essex, that to adopt that motion would he improperly to
delegate the powers of the Executive to a Committee of
that House. It would be to establish, at least, a most
inconvenient precedent, and it would have the effect of
putting an end, for the future, to any power of the Exe-
cutive to enter upon any arrangements or have any dealings
with any great corporate body. Suppose the Government
bad stood out on the terms sought by the Bank, what
would have been the condition of the country, or what
would now be its condition, in case of the consent of
the Committee to the proposition of the Honourable
Member for Whitehaven? Thet Honourable Mem•
ber, in making his motion, had used strong lan-
guage when spsaking of the conduct of the Noble Lord.
He sl.ould not comment upon that part of the speech
which related to the Noble Lord. The House must have
felt the injustice of the charge, when it was said that his
Noble Fiend had forgotten the duties of a Chancellor of
the Exchequer to ok to the revenue of the country, and
had placed himself on the side of the Bank of England,
and that he had no interest at heart but theirs. Such a
charge as that ought never to have been made within the
walls of that House—(Hear, hear, hear)—all the Mem-
bers of which must he sure that the Noble Lord's sole ob-
ject had been to settle the question for the advantage of
the country.—(Hear, hear.) It that question had been
left unseitied—it the Noble Lord had not made the exer-
tions, which, in fact, lie had used to settle it, the Mem-
ber for Widtei,aven would have employed still stronger
language for the neglect of duty that he would then have
charged on the Noble Lord fair leaving a question of such
vital importance undetermined. The advantages which
were likely to acme to the Bank had been greatly exag-
gerated. For his parr, he would say, that although Go-
vernment might have had a right to expect a better bar-
gain at the hands of the Bank, still, under all the cir-
cumstances, it was all Government could get. The
Honourable Member for Whitehaven, among other
severe attacks on the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
affirmed that that Noble Lord stood forward as the ad-
vocate for the Bank. This was not the case. The fact
was, that his Noble Friend was called upon to justify the
hatpin which he had tirade--which, although perbap

unfair and illiberal on the part of the Bank, still it was
the best which it was found passible to make, and there-
fore, in justifying this to the House, the Noble Lord
might, as it were, appear to def.nd the Bank, though such
was far from being the case. The Hon. Member for
Whitehaven had attempted to make out that the public
had made a much better bargain with the Bank in 1800,
but he (Mr. P. Thomson) utterly denied that such was
the case ; indeed, there was no parallel between the bar-
gains ; on the contrary, the cases were wholly different.
It had been triumphantly asked whether it were likely
that the Bank, rather than accede to better terms, would
have sacrificed the immense advantages they derived by
their exclusive privilege? He would say, yes; that it
was extremely probable ; indeed, he was well assured
that the Bank Directors, had Government hazardously
attempted to force better terms from them, would utterly
have rejected them. It was asked, "What would have
become of them, then ?" Why, they would have been a
chartered private bank, with a capital of at least seven (or
ten) millions, without the power of issue certainly, but still
of unlimited credit. After paying the proprietors one
hundred and forty-five or one hunched and fifty pounds
each share, tl,e Bank has seven millions of deposits,
which it has in deposit as a private banking company.
Matturs appeared under very different aspects than they
did a few years ago, for then the Bank Directors con -
duczed business under regulations which effectually tied
them up from acting as a private body. But since the
year 1825 they changed their system altogether, and at
the present time they had private deposits to no less
amount than seven millions. When relieved from their
public labours, he would leave the House to imagine
whether, with such a capital as this, such a good will and
credit as theirs, the Bank was not likely materially to in-
crease its private business, so far from diminishing it—
whether, under these circumstances, the Directors would
not choose to risk the getting rid of Government and
public business, and trust entirely to their own private re-
sources, rather than submit to any further reduction.
They had the concurrence of Parliament in the vote the
other ❑ight in their continuance as the sole Bank of issue,
and be (Mr. P. Thomson) did not believe that the
Committee would consent to any other delay in this great
and momentous question by referring it again to a Com-
mittee up stairs.
Mr. BARING thought that, however severe the Hon.
Member for Whitehave❑ might have been upon Ministers,
they had been still more despitefully entreated by their
Hon. Friend who spoke last. I: was poor backing of
friends to talk so complainingly of the bad bargain they
had made for the public.
Mr. P. THOMSON explained, that however he might
have blamed the-Bank for insisting upon such hard terms,
he had at the same time expressed his conscientious belief
that his Noble Friend, after using even persuasion and
argument for better tern's, had closed with toe present
bargain, as the best which, under existing circumstances,
could be made.

Sir HENRY PARNELL said that it clearly appeared,
that not only were it people in general extremely dissa-
tisfied with this meastoe, but that not a Member of that
House—not even Ministers themselves—seemed to have
any very favourable notion of this bargain. Was that
House, then, to allow itself to be embarrassed by a mea-
sure which none appr. ved of? Were they to succumb,
merely because the Burk chose to appear obstinate? In
point of fact, the real way of doing justice to the people—
which was their only ousineas in that House—would be
to make the Bank pay the public, instead of tl.e public
paying the Bank. He therefore trusted that the Com-
mittee would not come to any rash or premature resolu-
tion, but refer the matter to a Committee above stairs.
The habit of leaving such momentous things as these to
Ministers had already produced most unhappy results in
several instances. The labours of the proposed Commit-
tee would not occupy above a fortnight or three weeks ;
and then, whatever opinion they came to, he had little
doubt but that the House would adopt it without further
discussion. He could imagine no possible way in which
this delay could affect the commercial or other interests of
the country. Indeed it appeared to him that every inte-
rest would suffer from hurrying such a measure as this
over in the present session.
Mr. GROTE was also disposed to support the motion
of the Hon. Member for Whitehaven, but on quite diffe-
rent grounds from those stated by the Hon. Baronet who
had just sat down ; fur he (Mr. Grote) believed that the
postponement of this momentous question altogether
would be productive of the greatest mischief.—(Hear.)
It appeared to him, however, that the appointmeat of the
proposed Committee would not necessarily postpone the
whole question, for that would only have to inquire into
the terms of the agreement. It was essential that the
whole House should be made thoroughly acquainted with
the real nature of this agreement ; but at present he
doubted there was but a very small portion capable of
giving any practical opinion on this most momentous
question. He was not altogether disposed to make the
sweeping reduction proposed by ti.e Hon. Member for the
Tower Hamlets (Mr. Clay) ; but, at the same time, it
was agreed on all hands, and almost in so many words by
the Noble Lord (Althorp), that the proposed bargain was
most unfair to the public, and, therefore, the House would
not be doing its duty in ratifying an agreement con-
fessedly so disadvantageous to those they ;:presented.
He thought that the proper way for investigating the
true nature of this bargain, would be by referring
that part of the matter to a Committee up stairs.
When the matter was really understood, it was likely that
the public voice would force the Bank to come to better
terms. Nothing would grieve him more than that the Bank,
so pre-eminently useful as a Bank of issue, should lose
its popularity by insisting upon any hard or unjust bar-
gain ; by insisting upon making any undue profits by its
monopoly, or demanding too great a remuneration for its
public services. It was expedient to guard against the
possibility of the Bank acquiring any unpopularity by the
management of the currency, or to leave any chance of its
hereafter forfeiting its privileges at a time when it might
be of the greatest service to the public. He repeated,
that he did not think the inquiry into the terms of the
bargain would operate hi delaying the measure as a whole.
At any rate, it would certainly do no harm. He appre-
hended, that though the statements of the Hon. Member
for the Tower Hamlets should not be fully borne out as to
the profits of the Bank, still they were large, and a diffe-
rence of some thousands might be made in the bargain be-
tween it and Government. The profits of the Bank, he
considered, afforded a fair field of inquiry to a Committee
of that House, and he was certain that the result of such
an inquiry would be satisfactory to the country, inasmuch
as it would show that the Members of that House were
anxious and able to perform the duty they owed the pub-
lic on such an important subject. He would not trouble
the Committee with any further observations, hut he
hoped that the Committee would be agreed to.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD replied. He said that he was
always attentive to the interests of the public, and he did
not see why they should lose so large a sum as 120,0001.
The Bank, instead of receiving that sum from Govern-
ment, should pay Government for the privileges that were
allowed to it. He was surprised that the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (the Vice-President of the Board of
Trade) should have, in hie reply to the Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Tamworth, applied to so large a sum the epithet of
paltry.
Mr. P. THOMSON denied having made nse of such
an expression in his reply to the remarks of the Right
Hon. Baronet. What he had said related to the opposi-
tion of Hon, Gentlemen opposite, who seemed inclined,
for some paltry consideration, not to allow so great a
question to he settled.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD said that his impression was, that
the paltry consideration was the sacrifice of 120,0001.
The question, he thought, should be dealt IN ith in refe•
recce to the d istress that prevailed in the country, rather than
in reference to any other circumstance. At any rate, theßight
Hon. Gentleman treated the sacrifice of a few hundred
pounds very lightly. Now, he denounced the principle of
sacrificing any sum at all, and particularly on this occa-
sion, when the reverse might have been the result of the
bargain with the B ink. He condemned the Noble Lord,
the originator of the measure, fur having postponed it
until so very late a period, when the subject could not
meet with the due consideration it deserved, and when
large stuns of the public money would be squandered away,
lest the measure should be lost and the Government be
thrown into a dilemma, since they could not effect exactly
what they wanted. The most important considerations
were overlooked, and a s ecrifice of about 240,0001. a year
was made ; because, at firmer periods, an amount nearly
similar was obtained from the Bank for the renewal of its
privileges. He had t ken down the words of the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. P. Thomson); and, according to
his own showing, his Noble Colleague hail not made a
good bargain, since the Right Hun. Gentleman admitted
that they hail not obtained from the Bank all they might
have obtained. He would ask one question. Where was
the clang, r of allowing the settlement of this great question
to stand over until the next session ? Was it proved that
that House meant to deal hardly with the Bank ? 'Would
a Conunittee of that House deal unjustly by it? Why,
there were two Bank Directors Members of that House;
they would be placed on the Committee ; and certainly
they would protect the interest of the Bank. In one
week, if the subject were referred to a Committee, the
terms might be brought to a close—the country and the
Bank might be satisfied—and a saving of several hundred
thousand pounds might be made.
Lord ALTHORP wished; once more, to state to the

House, that he never felt as personal anything that really
was not intended to be so. It was very natural for the
Hon. Gentleman who last addressed the Committee, to
express himself strcnJy, as he was politically opposed to
the present Government, and as he, besides, considered the
Bank of England injurious to the prosperity of the
country. He was not surprised for these two causes,
that the Hon. Gentleman should express himself strongly,
but he considered, however, that the Hon. Gentleman hail
not the slightest intention of annoying him personally.
The Hon. Member for Essex had stated how dangerous it
was that a contest should be kept up between tie Govern-
ment and the Bank. He thought so too, and felt consi-
derable apprehension as to the effect on the country of such
a contest. He had made a❑ offer to the Bank which it
could not accept, and, dreading delay, he thought it better
to come to terms with the Bank, when it made what to
him appeared something like a fair offer. It had been
stated that he had not waited long enough.—(Hear.)
If Honourable Gentlemen looked to the dates of his
correspondence with the Bank Directors, they would see
that a considerable interval elapsed since the date of his
first letter and his last, and that be held out until
he was fully convinced at last t`, at the Bank would
not agree to his terms. With respect to the appointment
of a Committee, he thought that the matter would not be
settled in a few days, since there were two parties to
please ; and though one of them might he satisfied, the
other—the Bank—might not. At no time was it con-
templated that the question of a bargain should be referred
to a Committee, and he thought it an extremely bad pre-
cedent to reject a bargain, unless there was the greatest
cert inty that great advantages would be the result of
referring it to a Committee. He was of opinion that the
bargain should be adopted, and if there was any censure,
it should fall on the man who made the bargain. He
would not delay the Committee with any general ergo.
merits, as the question bail already been so long and so
fully discussed.

Sir H. PARNELL thought it perfectly competent in a
Committee to suggest such conditions of the bargain as it
should think proper.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD assured the Noble Lord that he
had never ascribed the calamities of the country to the
Bank Directors. Those calamities would have been greater
were it not for their prudence. What he complained of
was, the connection between the Government and the
B ink.

Mr. RICHARD POTTER said he considered the
amount which was to be paid to the Bank for the ma-
nagement of the debt, and the payment of the dividends,
far too high. In France a much smaller sum was ex-
pended. This was shown by a report made to that House
of the "Public Accounts of France," prepared with great
care by Dr. Bowring. At page 5, in that document, it
is stated :—" The interest of the national debt is now
paid by the Paymaster, who are correspondents of the
Treasury, in any part of the kingdom where the claimants
may choose to receive it, by an application to have their
names transferred to the. departmental lists. The ma-
nagement of the rational debt is estimated to cost 250,000
francs per annum, or 10,000/, sterling. The French
dividends amount to about ten millions sterling per an-
num, which are paid in every city, town, and village in
France, at the cost of ten thousand pounds. The divi-
dends here are about twenty-eight millions, and the cost
to the country was 150,000/. annually. In proportion
to the cost in France, the Bank ought only to be allowed
about 28,0001. Why should this country pay so much
more than is done in France ?

Mr. LYALL objected to the appointment of a Com-
mittee, and said that much had`been said about the inte-
rest the Bank got upon its capital. Certainly, in the
market, money was lent at a lower rate of interest ; but
he did not think that any capitalist would allow his capital
to be shut up for a period of ten or twenty years at a less
rate of interest than 4 per cent. He considered that there
was no danger of a new hank, since he thought it impos-
sible that even the sum of 10,000,0001. could be raised in
the city of London in opposition to the Bank of England.
He did not understand the system of banking so well as
many gentlemen, but he had lately made inquiry among
the bankers of the metropolis, and it seemed that a new
light had broken in upon them, because the result of his
inquiry was, that they were favourable in their opinion as
to the present measure. With respect to the limit of a
week's delay, he thought it would be impossible to satisfy
the Directors and the Proprietors i❑ so short a time. A
better bargain, perhaps, might have been made with the
Bank, but, taking into consideration that the question had
now been entered into, and taking also into consideration
what would be the consequence of delay, he was decidedly
for supporting the measure.
Mr. WALLACE said a few words, which were lost to
us amid the cries of " Hear," and " Question."
Mr. CLAY replied. Not one word had been said which
could be regarded as a reply to what be had stated. He
repeated, the whole of the Bank papers which he had re-
ferred to, and on which he had rested his case, were gross
delusions. He had withdrawn his proposition, because he
was informed it would be more fair to refer his statements
to a Committee, than to call on the House for an instant
decision on those statements. If the Noble Lord had
insisted on the terms he at first proposed, he was con-
vinced the Bank would have yielded, or, if it had not
yielded, the Government would have got the money to pay
off the Bank in one week.—(" One day ;" Hear.) He
lad done his duty to his constituents, but the House would
not do its duty if it confirmed the bargain which the Noble
Lord had made with the Bank of England. He begged
to inform the Committee, that the question on which they
were about to divide was, whether or not the Chairman
should report progress, and the House resume, in order to
move afterwards for the appointment of a Select Commit-
tee to inquire into the proper terms for renewing the Bank
Charter, as the forms of the House would not allox the
matter to be referred from a Committee of the whole
House to a Select Committee.—(Question.)

Lord J. RUSSELL wished to ask, whether it was in-
tended to appoint a Select Committee to take the place of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and make a bargain
with the Bank of England, or was it intended that the
Committee should lay down the rules and conditions
which were to bind the Chancellor of the Exchequer in
his negotiation with the Bank—he reporting from time to
time the state of the negotiation, and referring to the
Committee for further instructions—or was it intended
that the Committee should come to a resolution to set aside
the bargain made by the Chancellor of the Excheythr, and
see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a bargain
according to the wishes of the gentlemen opposite ? He
wished to know which was intended, because this was an
entirely new precedent, and a precedent which they might
expect would have high and important consequences on
their future proceedings. He felt that it was necessary
that the House should know distinctly what was really
proposed, as this precedent would be of importance even in
its constitutional bearings.—(Calls of " Question.")
Mr. WASON supported the motion for a Committee,
but amidst so much noise, that it was not possible to make
out what the Hon. Member said.

Alr. ATTWOOD, in reply to Lord John Russell's
question, whether it were intended to usurp the functions
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said that the object
of the motion was to call ore the Noble Lord (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) to form a Committee to consider
of the whcle of the terms for remunerating the Bank on
the renewal of the Charter. He wished to know in what
such a Committee differed from the Committees that were
continually apointed to investigate accounts, and appoint-
ments, and all other things ?--(Question.)
Col. TORRENS said that the Noble Lord had asked,
whether the House of Commons meant to usurp the
functions of the Chancelhir of the Exchequer ? He would
answer that question by askin2 another. Did the Noble
Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) mean to usurp
the functions of that House ?—(Laughter; calls of
" Question !" and " Divide.")

The Committee then divided on the motion, that the
Chairman do report progress-
-00

Ayes
Noes 176
Majority
The resolution was then agreed to ; as were the
sth and 7th resolutions. The Chairman was then or-
dered to report progress, the House resumed, and the re-
port was ordered to be brought up on Thursday (this day).
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the
Scotch Burghs Police Bill.

When the clause relating to the burgh of Hamilton
came under consideration,

Mr. GILLON proposed to restore the borough to its
ancient limits, and wished in that proposition to include
all Scotch burghs. He therefore made a motion to that
Ect. bi the case of the borough of Hamilton, the inha-
bitants he.d a great hardship to complain of, for the Com-
missioners under the Reform Act had so fixed the bounda-
ries a 4 to exclude the Palace of Hamilton; yet at the time
it was distinctly declared that the limitation was only to
he for the purposes of the Reform Act, and not by any
means to apply to any future local assessments.
Upon that the Committee divided--
For the original clause
For Mr. Gillon's amendment O7
Majority

On our return to the gallery, we found the Committee
engued apparently in discussing the question previously
heft)! e them ; but it was understood that the former
amendment was intended to apply to burls generally,