The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-20 00:00:00

GERMAN PA t Etts.

BERLIN, APRIL 6.—The appearance of a new disorder,
called the white plague, which is probably only a modifica-
tion of the cholera, does not excite so much alarm as the latter
disease did two years ago. This new disorder is said to have
reached the Vistula, and in souse places to have passed it, and
to be a diarrhma, which very soon proves fatal The in-
fluenza rages here in an extraordinary degree, and the small-pox
and measles, which preceded it, abate very slowly. In the
School for Cadets 90 boys are ill of the latter disease, but none
have died.
MUNICH, APRIL 9.—The Prince of Canino (Lucien Bo-
naparte) arrived here on Saturday, from Rome. He leaves us
again to-day, and it is said that he is going to America.
FRANKFORT, APRIL 12.—The city remains tranquil.—
Frankfort Papers, April 13.
VIENNA, APLIL S.—Accounts from Constantinople, of
March 24, have been received here by express, and announce
that the French corvette La Mesange, which took to Alexan.
(lria M. Olivier, aide-de-camp to Admiral Roussin, with the
convention concluded on Feb. 20, between the Admiral and the
Porte, had returned to the Dardanelles on the 23rd, after a
• fortnight's voyage, and brought the intelligence that the pro-
posals made by Admiral Roussin to the Pacha of Egpyt, had
not been assented to by the latter. The same vessel has
brought back to Constantinople the Cabinet Secretary of
the Reis Effendi, who accompanied Hall Pacha
on his mission to Alexandria. Immediately on his arrival he
was received by the Sultan, with whom he remained the whole
evening, and till late at night. Early on the morning of the
24th, all the Ministers of the Porte assembled, and the Divan
was still sitting when the courier came away )one o'clock in
the afternoon;. The Russian squadron was still at anchor off
Boudjukere. Letters from Alexandria, of March 20, which have
been brought direct to Trieste by a merchantman, confirm the
refusal of Ali to submit to the terms proposed by Acnir4
Rouissin, and add that the Viceroy has declared that be will
accept any conditions but those which he himself stated to
Hali Pacha. The Egyptian fleet was still at anchor at Alex-
andria when the merchantman sailed.—Austrian Observes•.

The Polish Count CZARITORYSKI is now
on a visit at
IBLarEtm,o.CcoEurt, alter having spent a few day,.
with Mr. NVE
RECOLLECTIONS OF A CHA P'ERON.—" Ili-
is a work which will go far to raisettle
productions of this school have of late yearsa ndaterd by wi'ici
The story of Eden Wareham includes several ,cedes judged. f
graceful pathos, and the interest is mairvained th;ouorhvoerY
In our opinion, the authorrss has produced two very bri:*
liant tales, full of proofs that she inherits much of tt:e
dramatic talent of her richls-Rifled mother, and affording'
every promise of her ultimately obtaining a classical repu-
tation—either as a writer of novels, or of comedies, ac-
cording to her cboice, or of both.".-Quarterly Reviesa,
April.

EAST INDIA HOUSE, APRIL 19.

(Continued from our Paper of yesterilay.)
Mr. RIGBY, in continuation, went on to say—lf such was the
case, what would become of our property?—it would
be taken from us, and our capital would be dispersed.
Such a proposition was ridiculous,—it was frivolous,—(Hear,
hear)—and with all the respect he entertained for the Pre-
sident of the Board of Control, he was astonished that
any such sentiments should come from him. Such a
commercial society as this in abeyance was absurd. The pro-
position ought to be put entirely out of sight, as it was unwor-
thy of those from whom it proceeded. The question then re-
duced itself to this, that either the Company Must make
the best bargain it could with the State, or they must at once
renounce the agreement, and say they steed upon their rights
and privileges upon the statute of William, and upon the faith
of successive Acts of the 13ritish Parliament—(Hear)—that
they stood upon the statutes, which had for certainty not only
recognised their corporate rights, but had from time to time ar-
ranged and settled accounts with them. A Company; in his
opinion, ought to have that granted to theiii which was
calculated to content them as Etiglishineft. He did not
know what the lbreigners, en important body, would say
upon the sulleCt f but the Court, in his opinion,
ought to stand up for the rights of foreigners,
widows, and orphans, in any arrangement they might
make with Government.—(Hear, hear.) They must take care
not to give away their rights. To the PmprietCra he admitted
it was a mere money question, aye Or no, were they to give up
all their property—(Hear, hetir)—their rights, as much theirs
as the property Of hit Grace of Bedford, or any other Nobleman
In the itseal, was his.—(Hear, hear.) It was impossible, in his
ripinion, for the British Legislature, formed as it now was,
under the sanction of any Government to trench Upon the
rights of the Company without putting to hazard and alarm
the whole commerce of the country.—(Hear, hear.) A great
deal had been said lattelly of the rights of the church ; in his
opinion they were not more sacred, if so much so, as the rights
of the bampany—(Hear)--who held those rights upon ancient
and long established charters, deeds, muniments and upon the
faith of the people of England—(Cheers)—and he trusted the
British Parliament would Ova respect the property of the
Company.—(Loud Cheering.) With respect to driving
the bargain, he would go to Smithfield, or to the
Corti Market, and state there, here are papers by which
it appears we are entitled to twenty.three millions, what
ought we have for it Y It had been said we had 101 per cent ;
but we trusted that it would go forth to the public, that
with a property aOtOtinting to twenty or thirty millions,
they were net making more than '2l. ISs. per cent —(Hear.)
Undet- these circumstances, lie thought the Last they could
Consent to was to have their dividends secured not eon the
inhabitants of India, that was not a fair mode Of taking them,
but to have them secured upon Bluish funds.—(Hear, hear.)
In the years 1793 and IPA, the company had sufficient to buy
Consols to pay all their dividends—(Hear)—and what had the
Company done since? They had greatly extended their corn-
inerce between the two countries, and after having done that,
were they to be placed in a worse situation.—(Hear; hear.)
What had the Proprietors to look to but their money; Lord
Amherst might look to his fames Ina the Company must look to
their money.—(Hear.) Why, he would ask, was the money of
their ancestors phi into jeopardy but to obtain profit ? that money
had teen employed in fair and honourable commerce, and he
could not see any reason why it should not be secured upon the
British funds. The Company had been told by the Directors
that they were almost in a state of Bankruptcy, and that they
could not go on without that trade, which was proposed to be
taken away from the Company. At the very moment when Go.
vernment were making those propositions which took from the
Company all control in the Government of India, they were in-
sisting that the Company should go for security to that country,
the Government of which they were about to take from them.
The Company now stood *iron the edge of a crater—(hear)—
and no man could entertain a doubt of that, if he would only
look to the evidence taken before both Houses of Parliament.
It Was scarcely safe to make such a statement, but when propo-
sitions such as had been submitted to the Court were brought
forward, it was necessary that it should he known. Govern-
ment, after declaring the insolvent state of India, required the
Company to take its security for their property. Some gentle-
men, it was true, held shares in the Company that were of very
little importance to them. What shares lie held were of great
importance to his family; but to some, the very thought of the
condition the Company would he placed in wan agonizing. It
was necessary, therefore, that the Cettipany should look to a
more secure basis for their property than India—they must
have the substantial security of the British fundholder.—
(Hear.) The present Company had been called a monopoly,
Was it so ? They were bound by their charter to have a
three years' consumption of tea in the country; and Were also
bound to put it up at certain prices and times. Would that be
called a monopoly ?—(No.) He considered that a monopoly
meant something like what had been seen in former times,
when a million of the people of India died in the streets of
starvation, in consequence of some persons buying up all the
rice and other articles of food. That he called a monopoly ;
but where was the analogy between that ease hnd the tea trade
as carried on by the Company. The Company did not, as in
former times, on the. retiewal of the charter, call out for an in-
creased dividend. They would be content to have the present
one secured. That demand was so moderate, that he trusted the
Court would be unanimous upon it. It became them, not only
as proprietors, but as Englishmen, to look whether the plan, as
proposed, with respect to the patronage arid political power,
would not, if carried into effect, Overbalance the constitution.
If the measure passed aS proposed by the Government, the
Ministers would be paramount in India. They proposed to
secure the dividends on India for 40 years ; but they also pro-
posed, that all the executive powers should be taken from the
Directors and Proprietors at the end of 15 years. That was
the first proposition, but the after one was not only much
worse, it was almost infamous,—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Grant in
his letter said, " If the arrangement be adopted, I shall of course
be happy to be favoured with your views on the propriety of
fixing any, and if any, what period, to the political authority
of the Company, as well as on all other questions which regard
the administration of our Indian dominions, It is the more
necessary to reserve this point at present, as I conceive it will
hereafter be a matter for grave consideration, whether the in-
terests of India and of the empire at large will not be better
consulted, and whether the Company will not in every respect
be more strongly and advantageously placed if the duration of
their political functions is left indefinite, than if they are put
under the invidious and perhaps delusive protection of a speci-
fied period ?" Did not that passage place the whole arrange-
ment as proposed by Ministers in a very doubtful point of view ?
—(Hear.) Were they to suppose that that high tribunal—
Parliament, would bind themselves to a plan of arrangement
which any man could apply the term delusive to—(Cheers)—
delusive—how could such a term suggest itself to the mind of
any British statesman ? After such a passage, which was the
more and more suspicious, as it came at the end of the corre.
spondence, would the Directors of that Court trust the IV

nistry any farther than they could see them.—(Cheers.) How
:ong would Una indefinite state last ? He would tell them—no
longer than till the next budget came out, when the country
would be told of the great inconvenience of having two esta-
blishments, besides the vast extra expense which it en-
tailed, and then the country would be called upon to throw
the Directors overboard; then what was to become of the
Proprietors because it must be borne in mind that in
the meantime they had got the whole of the Company's
money. When one man wished to take advantage of an-
other, lie would try to make him powerless. If he wanted
to keep a man from biting him, would he not draw his teeth
—(A laugh)—and that was the plan now being pursued by
Government. He called upon the Court to make a stand, a
firm stand, and have no delusion upon the subject. When the
Company was first established, the Court of Proprietors had
much more power than they now possessed; of that they were
stripped in 1793, when it was found that they were a most cor-
rupt set, because they asked for an increase of dividend. He
had great reliance upon the Court of Directors, and he had
no doubt, from what had taken place since that discussion
began, but that they would be well supported by that Court.
He should have wished that the Directors had formed a Court
of Justice long before that time, where all cases, such
as were attended to by the Hon. Proprietor (Captain
Gowan) might be referred; it would have saved the Company
from much slander, and from immense costs and expense. A
man might come from India rolling in wealth, which it was
known was got by the greatest rapacity, but still there was no
tribunal before which he could be brought, except he was pub-
licly impeached, which could not be done without such a ruin.

ous expense as saved such a character from any prosecution.
£hey had no proper court or tribunal for the trial of Indian
delinquents; they were so remote from Indian justice, and they
had no judges who perfectly well understood the subject, how..
ever well intended they might be. All those things required
rectifying ; but it was lamentable, now that the time had ar-
rived to take into consideration the Indian empire, that every
species of reproach was to be cast upon the Company, and
that the President of the Board of Control was to be impelled
forward by it ; the press, too, in all parts of the country, at-
tacked them with statements, some of which were known
by the Directors to be true, but they had no means
of redressing them. The press was tr.ly said to be a
mighty organ, and the tongue of the country.—(Hear.)
The Times of the 26th of March, speaking of the Bank of
England and the East India Company, said " there can be no
faith reposed in general principles—there can be no reliance
placed on the soundest maxims of enlightened policy, if a more
general participation in the benefits of both trades do not lead
to a great increase of our national prosperity, and a considerable
addition to the gemeral comforts of the people." That was one
of the many cries on the Ministers for a great and serious in-
terference, not only with the exclusive privileges, but with the
chartered rights of two great Corporations, and therefore much
allowance should be made to Ministers for the course they were
pursuing. If those arrangements took place, and took place as
he hoped, on the basis of public justice, he trusted that Mr.
Grant, in his late negociations, whether he was actuated by am-
bition, vanity, or by a just, patriotic, and philanthropic princi.
ple—from whatever motive, if he acquired the Government of
India (for that was no doubt what his exertions tended to ac-
complish), he trusted that the commercial, manufacturing, and
and mercantile interests of England would be greatly benefitted ;
that not only might all our labouring population be employed,
and those new sources of wealth which the Company had carved
out unfold themselves, but that prosperity and comfort
would be brought home to all classes. He hoped that the
changes would have the effect of improving the condition of the
Indian population, and that the Christian religion would be ex.
tended thither, not by the sword, but by the wholesome effect of
~gnododseuxeamphle--(Hear, hear)—that such would be the laws,
oftochbeerisuoamnemreeadn ;eiszsteir;t:l3:erane,d induce such the
poe cp7ldautit
their wretched and baneful, idolatrous Tea:oe
temples;_ and that we

might no longer be participators in those unwholesome gains
f, oin their idolatry.—(Hear, hear.) He should be happy to
see such a golden era, and that it would still be the province of
history to record how much had been done by the Company.
Captain GOWAN begged to reply to an observation that had
been made respecting his stating a fact from an anonymous
letter. He certainly did state it was anonymous, because he
had no authority to use the names of the parties to that cruel
transaction ; but he pledged himself, if a commission were sent
out to India, to prove the statement made in it.—(Hear.)
Mr. SALMON asked the Chairman when the discussion was
likely to close ?
The CHAIRMAN said he could state nothing satisfactory upon
that point. It must depend upon the discretion of Hon. Pro-
prietors themselves.
Mr. GOLDSMID was of opinion that the correspondence with
the Government did honour to the Court of Directors. It was
manly and candid. On the other side—without meaning any
offence—Mr. Grant appeared full of ingenuity. He should
look on the correspondence of that Right Hon. Gentleman in a
diplomatic style, if he had put " high consideration" at the
foot of his letters, but as he had not shown any " considera-
tion" for the Company, it was properly omitted.—(A laugh.)
The statements of Mr. Grant, that the Company had not enough
to pay off their debt were merely such as would frighten old
women. He (Mr. Goldsmid) would not submit to be frightened,
he would rather risk what he had.—(Hear, hear.) He was con-
fident the Parliament and the people of England would never
suffer the Company to be robbed of 5 millions of their capital._
(Hear.) He was sure if they threw themselves on the protec-
tion of Parliament, that protection would be conceded to them.
As to the resolutions, he trusted they would not stand, because
he was convinced they would do better if they left the whole
case in the hands Of the Directors, who, from what he had
alteadY seen of them, would do them ample justice, and protect
their rights.
Mr. FIELDER said when he first looked at the propositions
made by Government, he began to fear that in all he had heard,
and in all he had believed, he had been hoaxed and imposed
upon, and that the Company were not only in a state of beg.
gary, bat that they were actually a second set of Algerine cor-
sairs, and that they had abused their trust for the last 150 years.
Such a set of Algerine propositions (without offence to the
Right Hon. Gentleman) he never heard of'. If they looked at
the evidence given before the House of Commons Committee
they would see that greater talent, ability, and integrity
hail never been displayed before any committee. From the best
calcu:ation he had been able to make, he found their assets to
be about 24 millions, including their landed property and all
their effects. He did not come forward merely for the purpose
of getting a dividend, but he looked to see whether it would be
advantageous to the subjects of India and the nation at large.—
(Hear .1 He would contend that no colony ever subsisted
with beneficial results, unless it was managed by an inter.
mediate and protecting power.—(Hear, hear.) For the
evidence of that, he would call upon the Court to look
at English America She was of great service to this country,
so long as she was managed between merchant and merchant;
and what was the consequenee when that Ceased to be the
case ? why recourse to taxation—(Cheers)—and the taxation on
tea led to the loss of America to this country.—(Loud cheers
Nothing had procured and continued India to this count'',
but the good management of it by the Company.—(Hear.)
He could not believe the statement that had been made
of mismanagement in that country, as he was sure if there had
been, there would have been Volume upon volume of repre-
sentatitins to that etre, t to this country.—(Hear.) And it
would have been impossible for the British nation for one mo.
ment to have tolerated it.—( Hear.) He looked upon China as
a secondary object to this country; the great principle with
him was to secure the affections of the Hindoos, and then
we should be placed upon a rook On which we criuld not
split.—(Hear.) What, he would ask, had the Company done
with their money? why they had encouraged the manufactures
of India. Had Government done anything for India ?
(Cheers.) Had they encouraged its manufactures—had they
done anything in the sugar trade ? Just the contrary, they
had issued a prohibitory law against the Cultivation of the sugar
cane, and was it not for that the Company could fill every Indian
ship with sugar, a quantity nearly sufficient to convert the
Thames into a syrrup.—(Laughter ) India had never been the
nursed child of England, but it had contributed greatly
to the support of it. What had been done for all this by the
Government ? why the Company had been Called Upon to de.
liver up all their property, and to be content with their
present dividends, from an uncertain security.—(Loud cheers.)
They wanted only to be placed in the same situation as the
gentlemen on the Stock Exchange. When Government wished
to borrow money there, they said—as it is for the public good,
give us security for it. The plea on which such a sacrifice was
now asked of them, was that it was for the public good, there.
fine, let them have the same security.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Msaarcrr was almost ashamed to address the Court,
when it was almost tired of the long debate, but he felt that
the public—not that of Bristol, or any interested place, but
the Christian public, had a right to ask, what the Company
had done in order to raise up the native of India from
his present degraded state—they would ask whether it was
possible that the Company could yet be in receipt of that
accursed pelf, the tax on idolatry.—(Cheers.) He had no
objection to leave the pecuniary matters to the Directors,
but he trusted that Parliament would not let the moral ob-
jects be lost sight of.—(Hear.)
CHAS. BILLER, Esq., M.P., then rose, and said he was glad
to hear, on the fourth day of the debate, that one or two Pro.
prietors had the temerity to address them in favour of the
Government plan, seeing that the feeling of the Court was so
much the other way. He was glad that they had even arrived
at that point—it was something towards an assimilation
to the public feeling, and he trusted that if the debate lasted
a month the conversion would increase. He was of opinion
that the best plan for the Court to adopt was at once to close
with the plan of Government, which he considered to be the
best bargain that they could possibly expect. With regard to
the China trade, it was his opinion that no Government could
have introduced any plan of which the exclusive right to that
trade formed a part—the public mind upon that subject
had long been made up.—(Hear, hear.) He did not,
however, wish to cast any imputation on the Government of
India ; but he must say that it had been as careful of the money
intrusted to them as a man would be of his own. Not only for
the Proprietors, but for the people of India, did he consider
that that Court should as speedily as possible close with the
Government. He would vote for the resolutions proposed
by the Gallant General, not because he agreed with them
altogether, but because they left the question open for sego.
elation, which none of the amendments seemed to him to do.
The next terms that might be offered might not be so favour-
able. By rejecting this plan thay gave many chances to the
Government to deprive them of the Government of India. By
showing a spirit to treat with the Government there were
many amendments to be made which would be readier
got than if they were to fly in their face.—(Hear, hear.)
Why should Indian produce be taxed in coming to
this country, when British goods were pouring into that
country free. Another demand they might make was, that if
a few English in Calcutta wished for English law they should
pay for it themselves, and so relieve the natives from that
curse—the Supreme Court. There was another source of ex.
pence which might be reduced. If the English were so anxiou

for Religion as to require a Bishop of Calcutta, they should
pay for him themselves,—he would then have a greater opinion
of their sincerity. He called upon the Court to agree with
the Government, so that they might retain to themselves the
power to benefit by their rule the millions in India.

Mr. RowLs addressed the Court next. After going at some
length into the manner in which the Company had carried on
the tea trade, he recommended the Court to agree to the origi-
nal resolution, and then to make as good terms for themselves
as possible.

Mr. WARDEN then addressed the Court at some length ; but
at five o'clock, fee ing rather unwell, he moved the adjourn.
ment of the Court; which, after some discussion, was agreed
should be till Monday.

The death of Lord FOLEY will, it is said, be
the moat forinidable blow to the insuranc' offices wi ich
they have experienced -ince the demise of the two senior
member, of th. present Royal Family. His life was
ensured fur 200 0001., and he died at the age of 53.
THE MODERN CHESTERFIELD.—A series
of papers has bee❑ commenced i the Court Journal,
under the head of " Chesterfield in Land in," which is
calculated to excite much attention in the world of ton.
They are designed to exhibit a complete code of mantier.
-M•ed to the present dab—to establish a complete system
of etiquette for the safe guidance of those who triad the
difficult mazes of fashionable society. The third pap. r,
tinder the head of " Riws, Curtseys, and Salutations,"
will appear in to-morrow's number.

MARYLeBONE ASSOCIATION.—We at-
tended a o eeting of this ass, elation I.tely, held in
th- central committee-room, D rata street, GILBERT
AINSIE YOUNG, E-q. in the chair, and we,e sionewtia,
surprised at the regularity of the commun•cations for-
warded by the district committees, and with the general
method observed in the price-dings of the evening. It
appears that this association is formed of upwards of 800
residents of all pirties, and thi a their chi-t obj ,ct is to
secure the return of the most competent persons to act in
the vestry ; so as to counteract, un the one side, the siforts
of the old vestrymen, and, on the other, the dictation of
the _parochial committee. We shall, from time to time,
report any proceedings of public interest.
The shock of an earthquake recently felt at
Horsham spread great alarm through that town and neigh-
bourhood. On every side the inhabitants were seen
rushing to their doors, expecting each moment to see
their houses tumble to the gi ounih A magnificent man-
sion, about two miles beyond Horsham, on the London
road, newly erected TREDCROFT, Esq., at a great
expense, was shaken to the foundation. Mr. Tim)
CROFT has since deemed it pi udent to obtain the opinion
of an eminent London surveyor, who has inspected the
building, and assured Mr. "fitxncitorT of its safety.—
Brighton Gazette.

ANOTHER BONE CAVE.—The Rev. Mr.
WILLIAMS, of Bleadon, who is indefatigable in his pur►uit
of geological discoveries, has, within the last ten days,
commenced clearing a new deposit of tos-il bones in his
neighbourhood, which has already produced mammo•b,
horse, bog, elephant, and byenas' remains, in the best
preservation, and has sent a few for• inspection to the
institution.—Bath Herald.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 19.

On the LORD CHANCELLOR taking his seat on the
Wookaek, at five o'ekek,

The Eirl of RODEN, presented various petitions from
Ireland for the Marquis of RUTS.
The Earl of WINCHELSEA presented petitions from
Canterbury and its neighbourhood, Dover, and Spratton, in
Northampton, for the better observance of the Sabbath ;
from Woolpitt, in Suffolk, and from Spratton, for the
abolition of slivery ;,And from B,inbridge, in Yorkshire,
for the substitution of other laws for the violation of the
rights of property, instead of those which exact the for-
feiture of s man's life,

Lord ROLLE presented a petition from Exeter for the
better observance of the Sabbath and against the Beer
Bill. The Noble Lord said that the present Bill had been
attended with the most evil consequences, and hoped his
Majesty's Government wool.' consider of the subject.
Lord MELBOURNE said that the matter would receive
the serious consul. ration of the question, and every effort
would be made .0 orevent the evils complained of.
Lord LYNDBURST wished .to ask the Noble Lord
opposite (Melbourne), whether it was the intention of his
Majesty's Government to repeal the law with respect to
sheep-ste .ling, at present a capital crime? The present
law was very def ctive; the pow. r of mitigating the sen-
tence was in every case taken away from the Judges.
Lord MELBOURNE was not prepared at this moment
to answer the question of the N..ble Lord ; but the princi-
ple on which his Majesty's G-vernment had acted was,
that by mitigating the punishment tl:e gre 'ter would be
the certainty of its execution. His Majesty's Government
had introduced that law from the general repugnance the
public bad t:• the former punishment, anti from the con-
viction that it was impossible to execute it with any
certainty._

L ,rdLYNDHURST would in future always state to
the Jury and to the Court, in pass,ng sent• nee on the
prisoner, that he was bound to do so by the law of the
land, and that he had no power whatever to rnitig,te
the sentence, lest he stiould he supposed by them to be in -
flirting an unnecessary hardship and severity.
Tue B shop of LONDON presented a petition from
St. Sepulclture's for the better observance of the Sab-
bith.

The Duke of RICHMOND presented various petitions
from play.. in D rhvu ire, or the ato,lition of •lavery.
T,,e Maiine Mutiny 8111 was read a third time and
passed.

Lad WYNFORD pres-nted a petition from Camber.
well, praying their Lordships to pass a measure for the am •
litnation to the poor.
The Hitu,e then adj 'timed .

HOUSE OF COMMONS. APRIL 19.
The StEAKEIt took hi Seat at 5 oclock.
Colonel DAVIES moved for c rtain pension return..
Sir A. WILMOT brought in a bill to amend the LW
of Larceny, which was read a first time.
The Secretary of Rankrupts brought up certain returns.
Mr. W. PAT TEN ~rou.tht up a rep to..
A message from the Lords stated, that their Lordships
hail agre,ll to the Mutiny B
Mr. HUNIE moved for a return of the number of per-
son-, w.th dietr names and re-pective aecourits (and when
er mted), receiving pensions under the 57 h of Geo. 111.
Lord ALTHORP stated, that before moving the order
of the day for the House to resolve itsel into a Gunmittee
of Ways and Me ns, be wished to ask the Hon, Member
opposite if it was his intention to persevere in the notice
he had wet n. Toe reason he asked this question was,
that that motion was so important, the., it would he de-
sirable it should corn- on early, and therefore it it was his
intention to persevere, he (the Noble Lord) would next
move the order of the day.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD su p ai-1 that if he brought on
his motion to night, it would tie said he did it with a view
to embarrass hi+ M ilesty's Minister, and that probably hr
would labour therefore under great disadvantage. He,
most distinctly disclaimed anything like an intention to
throw difficulty in tt e way of his Map-sty's Ministers, but
he had beard nothir g from the Noble Lord why his
motion should r.e put off, except that the Noble Lord
wanted to-night for a debate on supplies, and he had asked
for that in so imploring a manner, that he (Mr. A )
was very touch disposed to think, unles• it were granted,
there would scarcely he the means of miking the puolic
payments after to-night. —(11i-ar.) He could not but refer
back to the manner in which other important motions
had been treated by his Majesty's Ministers; When the Hon.
Member for Birmingham brought forward his motion
for the repeal of the malt tax; the hearing of that motion
was interfered with by a Catholic motion respecting
Ireland', brought forward by Ministers. He could not see
how anything but contusion could be the consequence if
important motions of long st ending were to be continued to
be treated in this way.—(Hear, hear.) It was probable,
however, if he brought on his motion to-night, that tie
might receive only the reluctant support of many Hon.
Mem..ers, whose support he knew he would have, anti
who also were desirous of supporting Ministers. Under
these circumstances lie was prepared to defer to the Noble
Lord, should it be the pleasure of the House that he should
do so--on the other hand I.e was perfectly prepared to pro-
ceed, [should that he deemed expedient.
Lord ALTHORP would ft inkly tell the Hon Member
that the ground if his desire to make his financial state-
ment before the H in. Gentleman's motion was discussed,
+v 8 that he really thought it desirable to show that the
state of we finance of the country should be known before
that motion was brought on. He was obliged to the
Gentleman fir giving way on this occasion, and he
could assure him that as far as he (Lord Althorp) was
concerned, he would be most happy to give every facility
to the bringing on of the Hun. Gentletnan's motion.
Mr. A. BARING said, that as the discussion on the
Budget was nut usualy very long, probably the House
might be able to hear the Hon. Gentleman's motion about
nine o'clock this evening, after the discussion on the
No,le Loid's statement was at an end.—(Laughter, and
" No, no.") All he meant to ary was, that it was of
the greatest importance to the country the Hon. Gentle-
m motion -houid be heard at an early period.

Mr. M. ATTWOOD made an observation which was
inaudible.

Lord ALTHORP s+id, that he did not think the
orders would at all interfere with the Honourable
Member's moving on Monday night. If there
was not the c,urtely shown which w..sld enable the Hon.
Gentieuian to move, he would have an opporluoity of
In ring his motion as an amendment in the Committee of
Supply.
An Flon. GENTLEMAN said Fe had a motion standing
for Monday, which create► considerable merriment in the
House. He complained very much of having had to de-
fer his motion no less than three times, as it had been
stated in con•equenee of the pre•sure of public business.

Lord ALTHORP said it • was impossible the Hon,
Member's motion, whatever it might be, could take pre
cedence of the orders.

THE BUDGET.

The H.,u.e having resolved itself into a Committee—

Lord ALTHORP rose and s,id, in calling the attention
of the H use to the statemen I have to make respecting the
pr event state of the fi fiances I shall take liberty before I en.
ter upon that p ,rt of t, e•ubj .ct, to recall to the I" collet i
of t' e House the stitement which has been made at dil-
l. rent times, by different members of the Administration,
with respect to the course we have put-sued since com.ng
into office, with a vi• w to the reduction of the expenditure
of the country. In thus tresoassing upon the House for a
short I do not think I shall be considered to he doing
th it tv ich it is not fair for rue to do. Because, when we
enter. d into if e, we did so with the p 1 dge, that we
should apply ourselves to economy to the utmost of our
p•iwer ; anti because this is the first occasion on which the
finances of the country have tnrmally and at large been
r.itight before a RetorKied H use of Common~. For
these reaw.ns, I am anxious to take this opportunity of
sta ins the p: ogress which we made in the redemption
..f our pledge. The number of of es we have abfilished, and
the aliount of salaries we have r. duced, will, I think, be
stifficit n to show th it we have endeavoured seriously to
apply ourselves to this obj,ct. The noinher of places we
have atio;ished amaiints altogeth.r to 1,387 ; the sa.aries
of which were 2314061 From this sum, how-
ever, must be deducted 38 0001. per annum for re
tired allowances before the House can active at the
amount immediately saved.—(H-ur, heir.) We thought
we acted wisely in abotishin,z useless plat s, although part
of the salary was nut saved. The amount of immediate
savings, however, is 192,000/. under this head—out of
21,8941. W s ior Parliann,nt ity offices and places held
du: it g p eoiure. The saving in the salary and xpenses
of the diplomatic departments amounts to 91,7551 We
cannot, however, claim merit for the whole of this saving.
34 000. of it having been effected by t egulations of my
Lord Aberdeen, and 57,0001. of the amount is to be ascri) et/
to the credit of my NA!e Friend, the present Secretary of
State for the Foreign Department. There ha., besides.
been saved, in the shape of pensions on the consolidate i
fund, the small sum of 1.1811. The reductions of places
in the years 1831 and 1832 wand thus :-
1831
1832
This does not make the whole amount of 1587, which I
mentioned as having been abolished by us ; but the re-
mainder have been abolished either before or since. The
average of the salaries of the places abolished is

1731. 101. per annum. I have stated this to show that
we have really applied nurselves to the reduction of places
and salaries we have thought useless. I can only say,
with regard to the future, that it is our int-ntion to con-
tinue in the same course, to abolish every place which can
be dispensed with, and save in every way we possibly can.
I should add, that 506 persons have been taken from
the retired list, and employed by the Government,
saving their retired allowances to the amount of 28,000/.
I Sir, I have thought it desirable to make this statement,
Itefore I applied myself to the state of the revenue itself.
Under that department Isbell begin by stating what has
been the amount of the income and expenditure of the
country during the last year, ending sth April, 1833,
as compared with the income and expenditure of the pie-
ceding year. The amount of the income during 1831,
was 46 853,000/. ; the amount of the expenditure was
45,366,000/, leaving an excess of income of 1,487,000/.
In the estimate I presented during the last session, I
stared the t robable excess of income much below this
amount. I stated that I then only calculated on an excess
of 800 000/ , but in consequence principally of the
reductions that have taken place in the expenditure
dui ing the last year, the excess of income has amounted to
net less than 1,487,000 , thereby more than coveting the
deficiency of the preceding year. The deficiency of the
precedine year amounted to 1,200,0411., and with the
excess of the present year an actual improvement has
been made of 2,728,000/.—(Hear, hear.) The mode by
which this has herr' effected has not been by any great
increase of the income of the country ; but, in conse-
quence of the considerable diminutions which had
been made in its expenditure. In the year
ending 1832, the income w-s 46,618,000/. ; during
the poit year the income was 46,852,6501, and
the expenditure only 45 356 000/ , giving a diminu-
ti.in in the expenditure in last year of pretty nearly
two millions and a half. Therefore, Sir, it will he
seen that the mode in which the revenue has been placad on
a better footing, has not been from any accidental hie ea-e
in the finenct ,1 department, but by an econonsirel manage-
meta, by means of which these savings h ,ve been effected.
I will now state more in detail the income and expendi-
ture. Last year the Customs amounted to 16 769,6211.,
the excise to 16,529,1311 , the stamps 6.857,5401., which,
with the taxes, peer-. Mee, and miscellaneous, amounted
to a total of 46,852,6501 The expenditure with
the debt, including the interest on exchequer bill.,
part of which was not charged on the con-
solidated fend, 28,225,991/. other charges 1,859,248/..
making a total of 30,085,239/. I will new scare what
the exper.diture has been tor the preceeding year, the army
7,551 0241 which I ist year was reduced to 7.006 498/ ,
the navy 5.842,8351. last year, reduced to 4,505,0001,
miscellaneous tor 1832, 2,009,4301., and fur 1833
2 133,953/. Having stated what is t e h dance of the
pa-t year, which is a surrlus of 1,487,1431, I will now
caletrate what is likely to be the state of the ensuing
year, suppesing that there will be no a'teration of the
Male., but that they remain as they are. I calculate.
that the whole amount of the revenue for tee ye-ar wi 1
he 46,491,1281., and in this year I do not calculate
t.e amount of the income to be so large as it was last
year. I think it sere to do so. It is not likely to be so
large in the Excise, because at the eose of last year the Lir-
. rear of malt duty nas more than it is now. I the, e-
fore, take the income of the present year at
a lower rate. I calculate the expenditure charged on
the consolidated fund to be 41.922 219/. which deducted
from he incame ,if 46,491.1281 nil leave s surplus of
1,571,909/. The Committee a e aware of my anxiety, and
celivicti n that it is en st desirable to reduce the surplus.
I have always held that it would be desire le to do so ;
but I I ave already reduced it perhaps lower than
it ought to be ; but I am afraid of venturing
to do so at the present moment. But taking into considera-
tien the whole situation of the country, I am of opinion
teat it is desirable, as far as it can be done with
safety, that a reduction of taxation should take place.
The surplus inceme I have already mentioned to
amount to 1571.9091 With respect to the
reduction, I certainly think on the principle on which I
have always acted, that a reduction of taxation may
take place—(Hear, hear)—hut I am, at the same
time quite aware that the reductions which I shall
propose cannot, by any passilflity whatsoever,

. .
be to that extent which I have heard
spoken of in this House, anti out of doors. Ido not
pi loose, Sir, a reduction of 30,000 0001. of taxe-,
or of 20,000,0001. of taxes, that would be impossible,
but the tax s which I propose to reduce, if properly ap
plied, will tie of some considerable relief to the country.
Bef 're I proceed further, 1 think it is necessary to apply
myself to the taxes which have been proposed by Hon.
Members to be reduced, as In easing very much
upon the people of this count' y.—( Hear, hear.)
The first tax is tl.e tax -otl m ,It. An H ,n. Fri-no of mho-,
the Member for Lincolnshire, has given notice that he will
bring forward a mteion for the reduction of the malt du y.
Sir, it may le, perhaps as well that I should state
what the real produce of that duty 11 is been in
the past year. During the past year its produce was
4 825 128/. A total !eduction, therefore, of the amount
of the mat duty, without the stu,stitution of any other
tax, would be inconsistent with the state of the revenue.
I hove stated that we ought to look at what has b en
the course of the malt duty, in order to con-i•
der whether it is necessary, as it presses on the
industry of the country—on every class of the
community, or as a financial question—whether it is
necessary that the malt duty should he one of the
taxes which, in the first instance, ought to be
r duced. Now I will state the produce of the Malt
Duty in a few preceding years. In 1830, it was
3,813,3041 In 1831, it was 3,436,271 ; and in 1832, after
the removal of the Beer Bill it had risen to 4,459,3321.,
and, at the end of April, in the present year, it
was 4,825,125/.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore the tax
does not appear to press on the article so as to
prevent its consumption. Looking at it again, in an-
other point of view, I ask whether the price of barley
has not remained the same as it did previous to the tax.
LoAing at the tax, therefore, as a financial ques•
tion, it does not appear to me to interfere with
the consumption of the article, and looking at it as it
affects the producer, the producer is not defray led,
as far as I can a-certain by it, of the value of hi,
commodity. Looking et it, therefore, in all thin points
of view, I do not think the Malt Tax is the one
wltich ought to be reduced.—( Hear, hear, hear )
The next tax, Sir, is one on which I feel much greater doubt.
It is one on which my own opinion his a great tendency
to make me doubt as to the propriety of the decision
to which I have come. That tax is the stamp duties
upon newspapers. With respect to it, I have already
s ated my opinions frequently. I think it a bad
tax (Hear, hear). I think it a tax productive of much
evil, because I consider the effect of it is to give a mo-
nopoly to persons who ct•rtainly do not care
about offending the law.—(Hear, hear.) It gives them-a
monopoly by evading the law, by publishing cheap pub-
lications, which is a sys•em I wish to see abolished; tint
it can only be done by abolishing the whole tax, because as
long as you give a premium to persons to evade the

;he law, however small it may be, they will be

taken advantage of. The question, then, I have to
consider is this, whether in the present situation of
t':e country, and I tm sorry .0 admit th tt there exists great
distress at preseut—the question I consider is, whether
in taking off a tax of 440.0001. a year, it can be jus-
tified as giving immediate relief to any class—(Hear)—
id' the country. I see my Hun. Friend (Mr. Bulwer) is
taking notes; and I admit that the tax being removed
would give relief to a certain extent; but the tax on
newspapers is not one which presses on the industry of
the country, and which would by its removal give a great
relief. I know that it is argued that the re,tuction
of the taxes may be compensated by another mode of
taxathm, and that it is not fair, in reducing the tax
on newspapers, to calculate the loss to the revenue at
440 000/. I a 'mit that it would not amount to Via.,
because something 4 ould be gained by the increased con-
sumption of paper, and than, in fact, the loss to the
revenu• would be consider bly less. I wish to shock
it is not without consideration I have come to thi

e,•ion. I have examined the question as aecur.tely as I
could. I certainly thought, in the first instance, that
pat might provide for a considerable return of tin
loss of the revenue, by laying on a stamp of postage—
that is a penny poq-ge on each Newspaper. Notv I be-

. -
lieve the Government might gait; considerably by
such a thing—gain, bec•use they would receive iu
this way much more than it could possibly cost for the car-
rying of the Papers, but, unfortunately, Government w-ulo
hive rivals in this 'rerew, and the stages would carry
titern much cheaper than they could be conveyed by the
loads, therefore 1 believe that so far from increasing the
number of newspapers carried by the post, by the re
,uction of the duty on the patio, it would
reduce the number of them considerably, and, in
.1,011, take away the carriage of newsnauers by the
mail altogether. The Committee c uld not but be
,wa:e that vie great mass cf papers use d in the country
were carried to the large towns to masses, and a. I.

.)uted thete and to the reighbouriog towns by the
urge newvaper venders ; and in !hi.: way they
vould be continued to be sent and distributed, if the
,tort' were taken off, and .itnout paying atiy postage
Nhatever, because the expen.e of conveyance by coach
.otild be next to nothing at all. The question
then simply is this, whether I should take off the tax

nectilitife
on newspapers—as some may say, in a or- mobs,
but I think on well founded grounds, val spislov
the reasons I have rated—and sacrifice the 40
the revenue arising from them, 440,000/. !'ilitoffe
which would arise from the increased consumP;: ejo
or whether I should apply this slim t" tea Of
of some taxes which press more heavily
it i,
munity.—(Loud uheering.)
regret that I have come to theSior'p
myselfhsving uponhelcl It,
—u t
lexapeemc ti at t ioonn sd—isetul isosiui:lgnih:c,ll:Bla.fiili:l4:ll2di 1:
session I did incline—l may PelbsPB ha" ;
prudent—but I did incline to
of wta hat j
king 1
real intention at the time, 'b
tax, and I wish to state that frankly to („er ite
Now, Sir, I do not think it is necessary 401
apply to any other tax at the present 1::clo
discussion. Now, Sir, the first tax to 1/_..,
call the attention of the Committee, is one olvf'
amount, it is the tax on tiles. This tax wilt
to 37,0001. a year. Thedutyon slates having I, I
I also think the duty on tiles ought to be taken. $OOl
always felt, the tax on tiles having been Pll/, , I
lieve, to counterbalance the tax on slats, sss io.
to take the fist pportunity of
toe
loch
as well as the oth r o
er. The next tax to w ory
whit to apply myself, will not be of sl3_3'; the
amount; indeed, I am not quite sure ‘vils, e„
will b-, but I think it very likely to afford
_,,,,,,,
relief, and that is a tax, with respect t°
~..;iO,Ol
With respect to the tax on advertisements, 111' io
it at present stands it is injurioue to trade di'
branches, and its reduction will be most beee
100
productive classes.—(Crieere.) At present thief
vertisement., as the committee is perhaps 804
61 on each advertisement, every time it is rereeitis
must operate as a great check on the ire
advertisements, and must, as I said before, intrelf set
every branch of trade. Now, I propose t°,,,,,,P
tax on the first insertion of an ativertiserneot"o,o
to 2,, on the second insertion to Is. 64'' 00
future insertions to J. I think that fide'
will see that this plan will have the advantage °l.ge '
little of the revenue, e hilst it will greatly re'lo- 1f,,.
(Hear, hear)—end encourage those who (or'n°W-P
use once, to do so frequently, as it is clearli h;tlls
terest to do so. Indeed, I think we may sal t"ti-f to
probable effect of this alter ition will be, frequl' .Cej
advertisements, which otherwise would not Ito Sn''
it will enable the proprietors of newspar" e°
jested advertisements at a cheaper rate ths", -, the
sell a single advertisement ; fir by keePairgion;
standing they are saved the expense of cow,- „,,,,
though, therefore, I do not think we Ir;.1, 1 3 w'r
much lore of revenue by this change, 1 t'''. •
safe— tare 1
from adVA,wPrLi ,a 0
sate at calculating
m,LSritairrrrdßiii
tbiltk- 0,1:
—tot
hTlesb Oe
r,ewodohuto)c/itei,orai elnvdeantlu e
0711-1,7:::
or tine half. 'fire next tax to which I shall sPr-:1,
Inc the removal of which is much desire' "1 EaTlE.,llioLio:rn—nß.tp:W? hat is the present Woo"
fol)
marine insurances.—(ll-ae, hear.) Sir, Iheinge"
wahout airy large sacrifice of revenue this 101,siont°
Such a manner as to give great accommoos cog
shipping interest, and the trade of tb_.‘e till;
generally. The present rate of duty is on the Cn
Is. 3d. per cent. when the pierniu° 043
exceed 205., and 2a. 61 per cep`' de '
dues exceeed 20s. On the foreign 1.-0,00
higher, being 2s. 61 per cent., when tb' Pret,
nut exceed 20.., and 5.. per c nt. when it ear°
20s. The amount of revenue yielded by this ra'
bn OA
right 220,0001. Ii is, however, for ror,'7 hi'"'
this tax has am,runted to at a former period II :0016
House will see an effect similar to that which 'lolo'
Oder as having taken place in the case of Malt .0,0 la
gloss amount of this tax (certainly from YsZ,,o('
it was a large year), was 452,00 0001*
Whe eas, as I sated before, it is only 2":t.' 00
I am afraid I must admit, under these °'"ci,io II(
that the effect of the tax has been to drive 1-1.-
of trade out of the ceuntry.—(Heara he, h", ,6
Therefore, Sir, I do think that this is one 01 the sig'
which the principle on which I act. ought t4,,,,re,"/i
The proposition I have to subunit to the Cote
,(teas
sairj.to will, I believe, he acceptairle to the I% oa 1111,
o nie,i. It is not proposed to alter the °I: tbi.
ties to the coasting trade. My proposition *
all policies far the foreien trade, in which tha,el fel°.
under 155., the duty shall be reduced from 2"' ',IA 9
and under policies where the premium. is 110`;.g$
rib, ve 155., I propose to reduce the duty -00
When the premium exceeds 305., I prop"ie..,(t.
presets. duty alkali continue to he 10111'0
From what I have already head, I ''' srs
this arrangement wili be satisfactory to the in'eritti, if
corned. Of t ourse they would be better saris° 01
reduction were greats, but ttre reduction
of
in .d., falls on tho.e punch's, in the nase';‘,o of
relief is most required. I calculate the reduerietar
r venue which may t .ke place from this causestt 000
There is another class of taxes to which 1 Wig' nar
vent—l mean the assessed taxes.—(Hear.) '''°ol
011
respect to these taxes, the pressure on the
al 01,
on the G.rvernment has been fur the total rrr Joe.
firs tot.tl repeal of them would make a I '-‘, orr
2,594 0001. I confess, that however 1 11/ ;re
accommodate and relieve tie town and no° 00
than, I should not be justified in sacrificing sll,laet ''
of the revenue fur that object. I have.; 11
to consider it some mode could not be adoi 1"--,.' p
the productive industry of the country may fee ilf
1
while this tax might remain upon those w,eat,,
able to bear it ; I mean, whether an arras:W-0, 1
net be made, by which the shoplooper° lot J
relieved from the duty, while houses got r;st
not converted into shops should beriga, CO. Ili
chargeable as at present.—(Hear, hear.) 'treae"Al V
may proliab'y be aware that according to the I' el;
regarding the window tax there is an allowal bet:4i
Which three windows are struck off from es° I, Fri ail.
which a shop is attached. I think this /',i t ;IV
upon which we may proceed. I do 4:00:4,10
0 confine the windows for shops to any si)`•c- .01117,1:
but would propose to take the duty oP ;011'0; i
all shops employed as such, or as ware rooms. A to tl''
if a house had 15 windows, and five are alofilie,d"sel' ri
and different warehouse rooms, the duty Isr°lhk-0 raliati
willnvvo With
t hu
be
eo nrel
ssptbiereetetione-thirdi but utpooof n
tlthOhoo. w
house
window
thatswo t
tax,
c:xa 1,......e
t‘t 0":00. y
.0", f I,
gpt(wiat 1 to
iv,eriw,le.t,applyiLot,aon,i,ni
nu:a i:rayedeeov.
ednfet hueTctshae one-thirdc.ion ve
hi
dl pfiteolirlioeaietein:ykde°aetsunhphnpheeeod,o-:pdntubusii ientatryabdnrstiselo:l;:c. :r.te for:6,:l:°lr °,l
o a • 1 gii
m appliede described,p't
shops,hwu applied because I hmavmeittereeliwevileldace;hetinhat ":611:0'1!'„((rJ,
to
leiraetilibileo window,rtfoodrws
ell
ing.
The
reuaufo ,
thus effected I estimate at 100,000/..--(1- is "I,
Now, with respect to other taxes, the 14(iu:ecsee. ',,
0 the debates that have taken place in conseq-seofj rj
alteration made in the duty on taxed carts la'' oper
have explained, that air hough it may have eedSilr,,,
seine measure as a fresh tax. it was, in (flatfot
_Jr' fl
the • tax, but it has undoubtedly pressed P p KO",
who were nil charged with it before. 010$.$ pet
ierwever, produced much to the revenue, and /rii I- r:f ei,
affect the amount of the assessed taxe'' Itlti tlio
that all carts which would be subjected th the
•es $ ii
ire entirely freed from that duty. This will 1 tiOW
notion f 30.000/ —( Hear, hear, hear.) noses of,
p..se that another duty which has bve°ao lip°''lP;;
planned of shall be taken off—it is that ur II.) iflel.;
warehousemen, porters, 86,1. (Hear, nineofr—
is,
will make a further reduction of 45,u; leito t Is,
near.) There are other persons connec'eued,ol
an I agriculture, who may fairly be relic,: real ,101
onount is nut very large—l- mean the on"Te 'Pet ,
era and riders, the duty on whom is 4,500- to Caddo,
.rn commercial clerks, &e., 1 also oroeetak, osb-oll,'
mounting ro 55,000/ I next propose t°
..o„rs, `r( b'.
.up.,11 stewar s, bailiffs, m imagers, and "Vet' -,,01, te ori
rut of small 41110110 t, namely, 9 500/. The , ,0 111;10
e Auctions in the assessed taxes aindlrt to 41_,-0 ,
of 244,000I.—(Cheers.) The next Pl"°' 0 eertr4 „
dial' address myself is one to which I apace"inottolb o'l
gree pledged. When I laid the tax 00 O , , 01:1
bat it was contrary to pr incipie, autl Ill" ;:e'lr-eitoc,` (0/,
iornunity that presented it.ert it ought to d ow, ni ~I
mink that opportunity has now arisen, ninioo,l do 01
eurshent on the Htiuse to take off the add.' NI" li ° I
'Vv.!:
s' thelat
ii,docui nngrehuit an ib-1yt8.3,
ictie:3l§, s
eTul ; : daeenrCdt 7;ihylni oithtit:‘‘eient aril' II:.
ns I,6:tiji. a
t°‘,2) Ij/re:ll
co.tararY PI/
should
I,deestiatkaeb.nle 0
ff tehotitirelyt,heas tax . o
o pie , brat the dory on ra i., "b:7,nigewo:. fi
WI;:°/. itpj
rose to remit this tax, it '8 -" any I's" br7
~ principle as the tax ~n printe,d canlia
t has, at the untie time, an-rerun too loi-c...9
l' etc is danger in taxing the raw
hem_..ufoito",,
ecan'eA r
~ii
ends to prevent the importation of t
do:
to
...
4, s
,ele. Now, Sir, this danger f the c'et
. of eat pa,
.srow itself, but remains dormantt
not a,,,,5r
..,
tenon of foreign manufacturers is , "-lus' ~
it is too late to be tetnedied..---( Hear.)

eculatire
r
ry out,
et. the 11.ib
0001. l''lniOol
ntitroo
doe,
t„ cal
avily oatl; ,to
curl l
fe4' ,0,1
a I ha'elroll4
I avoided
du in; tbhe;
, have
w
h
a
t
`.
-

„volt 01

thatl4o not mean to put the duty on raw cotton on a Letter
hg than it was in 1831 Previously to th t period
was an ud tmlo q rern duty ui! to three-eighths of a
Per'nY Per more lb., to arptich tit re was then added two-eighths
The ~
„I, , making the full duty five-eighths of a penny.
me amount of duty in the pis?, year, at that rate
°n"Thunted to e 26,0001. If the duty were now redure.l
4'llft it would seem that it would he taking 320,0001.
I('-')! annum tramthe duty raist-td on raw cotton ;
that" the !eduction of other taxes it is generally expected
deficient an increased demand will make up for patt of the
s
_alt illyfaun.., but Idl
not expect that in this
at them a siilar re,,
will h therefore conclude th measure
so °
-t• reduced to nearly that amount, sty at Is art
a t"°,°°l. Now, Sir, I
All i, to apply myself to another
am--, reduction of which is most deserving of art, ntion.
eatt the tax on soap.—( Hear.) The present annual
tiia:ont
duty of that duty is 1,186.0001. I propose to reduce
th one half. I may fairly expect tbat tilting oil'
and
draivhaet.
i_. Kt which amounts to about 100,0001.,
illicit t''''nz also into account the reduction of
that tanufacture, I shall not exaggerate when I state
tha4 3 the whola loss on that duty will not amount to more
„„00,0001. I have now Sr stated all the taxes
arti4 which it is intended to make a reduction,
the I beg to state that I have endeavoured to select those,
Part eduction of which might relieve the productive
afford'f the community in particular, as well as to
Thee
general relief to the country.—(Loud cheers.)
iy i'Ln'ay be here some gentlemen undoubtedly who will
i "
the
I ought to have gone to a greater extented
tri'll ine reductions which have been prpos
that , aPprehend there is no gentleman who will say
i :htne taxes to whi"h I have confined myself, are not
4 iiernßelve,, Cinch' as it was proper to have reduced.
and ar:t. O'CONN.ELL here- iott rrupred the Noble Lord,
tha, 4",1 whether the reductions on advertisements am',
un(lerstond, on soap should extend to Ireland ?
Lord Gentle AL
THORP—I will not new answer the Learned
th :en'l• Undoubtedly Ireland should be placed on
I:(j'an'e footing, or as near as possible, with E-g-
-tali67-(11"".) I will now recapitulate to the House
ales which I propose to reduce :
In the article of Tiles .£37 000
Marine Insurance lOO.OOO
Advertise
75 000
4e,tied Taxes
Cotton ... 244,000
........... 300,000
S'aP .................... 593,000
...............................•....

4' far a In all 1,349,000
of,_ , Positive relief goes. But sti I, in consequence
that.* I
before stated respecting soap, I do not consider
f
I,osgthere will be a real loss to the revenue
Will ',,'°"l.---(llesr, hear, bear.) The surplus that
tlie to Will only be 516,0001., but will
ni.
ta,,P,re,tit state of the country, it wilt be of great. a va I 1,0,"1at I should not stop short of these reductions. I
Will 'lPlained at considerable length these details.
d, I do not
tlll,irialit'4otl °'e any general arguments: indeed,
ii
sndaeet all desirable.
g here I
have
rae,abtia.teedinetnhte
staxes I have stated the
4:1°t14:7,1' °I. the reduction, and where I have not
re4,.,-n-nY reduction, I have ;here also shortly stated the,
chts-"Phich have induced me to adopt my present
ki on"“--(Hear, hear.) lion. Gentlemen mightt
hit &let Particular tax, and some may othejrs;
object
"nfi d with
the . °Other I hope the House will be eau-
.de
only, howerveductions Which I have made. I would
d,
Illliti :61.' beg the House to consider whatever they !
1013 u'r - tl'Y may substitute other taxes for. those I
.4d el,o reduce, I hope and trust they will notbe
ta4,,-' to press for a greater reduction of t fixes besides,
44,,,, frotti the statement of the r venue which I havtoe
10.41;.the committee must see it would he impossible
~,ro.
klitt,lit* I do not think it necessary ro d.•tain the . 1
'lt t:°g"r, and I have merely to propose a rt-3' l t
i.O_loo-
- t:,j;_t i, the opinion of this Comthittee, that the duties
Ihea ta' Payable on tiles should ce ise." . The Nolbe Lord
kr d"10 amidst very general cheering. .
Ilat lIUNIE was for some minutes inaudible, in con,:,
4 INtvi Ilet."f the continued noise occisioned by Meath./ t
2'tlt the rr
"ouße. We understood him t., say that. whilst
Vtgttt"d 4'
d the propriety of the proposed reductions,
for
,11,tari:" that they had not gone further. He thought,d.
,_
Ltil e', that the malt duty might have been re uie I.
rtltef ~,- t° -Noble Lord had some other plan fohre goivounal;
ilbt, toe suffering portion of the community.
~.
_ie
4,4.41 tithe that the present plan w.•uld not give, scahi,,f,ere
tow It would not meet the calls tor relief
0fw01iei,,,,,,,,5._d
445441/4 The complaints of the pressure
be
kl, Pl'eeedetl on the principle that they could nut
w,,ul I
'lotit44d those corn laint, the Noble Lord's plan
condition
"ht-e't• The co!, try was now reduced to a
.
N-lii.4 they ought to rusorne risk fir the sake o r. liming
Nut :Pie. Why, niit try the eat), ri i ent 0' reducing
it
Y ? IL. , ,• h 1 if the quantity 4,1 u"
. - ruit teilevei, l at la .
tv
y,,ti . °R,., -1 corMitt.eil n •w that was consumed ht , rt
Would f the duty was seduced to 10 a quarter. i
tia :friid immense relief, tuft he believed the c.disump
W`ild-'l°4l lie doubled- He was satisfied the House
tti,:titti.,"l'n'l• upon deliberation, that it tut, malt duty was.ti
-4111:1til„• ", I Os 6 I. a quarter, the increase ot to
141.! tilt (:,-'9ollld he -0 V ,-at that there woo d he tu. lo It
7 iv,„'"'e,.uee With respect to the t •x on newspap Is;
tkliii-- '4o4gett for the contessioa w iich the Noble Lord
40. 4P) ,Nett
made. T, Noble Lord had stat• d • he
4 • 0„i . ..le ,
'l4l
"I°4 10 that House wh eh he (Mr. Hume). had
11,4, earn before x iess in private. He was sorry to
14 natter ,r' that ethP Noble Lord hail only considet eti
at „-atter eh.
k,uon,tet it night in a
54 , "1 with the great subject of public nstruetion.
toe'logrktii4e-tb4i!r saciifice of income the House ought ,o
vil as the obsttucting
tt„...tht 017, ssen so great an
14leateti ,uit,"'n of knowledge. Ife the Noble Lord had
ih ,t 1 it
w`" • newspaper duty for a small postage,, he be-
ti; ile, °Ol have given great satisfaction, and he hop. d
Ile e Would yet take a larger and mere extended
tail 4 th
ANt 11 ' question. He also objected to the complex
th'iltiiio Which the Noble Lord proposed to carry the
4r.) °l,°f the adv • tis 'merit duty into effect.—(Hear,
ittt(l4ite to- hb"..e.vrere trmanty advertisements which did not
likitteidd
leavevse `much en, abettere. than once ; and
It due a been
1, 'e tu,,., °,l the duty at once to 18d. on all advertisement.-.i
t,,,,e'Y lit7l e Of reduction which was proposed would afford
Clicti he relief. Ile also considered that the propose.
1,,-1.41ii ti.'eat°l.retni.arine insurances was not calculated to af-
ar .'tr, i, 'l4- The Noble Lord should have gone
isi,lNuea 4 reduced the lower as well as the higher order
In-I,t tv 44°' As to the reouction of assessed taxes,
,- idt,'ikPruPosed would put an end t.i much complaint.
tli:l°,4lifieT reduction, as far as it went, would meet
w- 44,0,aPProbation ; but he was extremely sorbry
sthoart
5 4reliti4ulders, who did not happen to keep s op t
:(1 grow:', were to receive no relief. There was a grea
4:444, g discontent on the subject of these taxes.
t„1oti„°1 houses wet e thrown out of occupation, which
1:.,4 tl t -"
,the ass ton those still occupied to rise ;
-.4,i ' leeli ‘"sffien
against the Halls'
/i44l%Vittiti g was becoming so strong.
thi, 1., IN taxes that it would be impossible for the
inss It. hl" rd 0 resist it lon --(Hear.) As to the soap duty,
ti,,,lN'ti„l4i 'A admitted that the oniy, mode oi prevent-
it t li ' EIK was by reducing the duty, and ati t.hteonsan.iee
t'alti 1 adinitted that, by the proposed ret t!, r ,1:_
,4,f4tt ,e'vell remium ol 2+. per cwt. to the Illicit
t„it-;,,ettl,l'et% Onp the contrary, the Noble Lord should have
1 w what the illicit dealer could
N,.'1c,t12, duty is.
a4,l"lttii4° e at, so ald'se :the:. leave no encouragement for
House would take all those
l,i'dat'or4f,Liatt.o colinesidlieoraetion,-aud resolve upon a commuta-
'ti4iitt;%,e taxes which pressed most on the productive
11',Wt, :1 the country, for a tax pressing on property.
11:5,,, the country would nut be satisfitel it the
td ti'thiti4ated Without resolving upon such measures.
itt-'ol4`t that the House should also press fur a greater
bursa to t:ltaxation, and give relief to the. country, at
l(ti,,,ie full annum:it of the surplus which the Noble
L °,loliei ~wa‘ at their disposal.
thst44rd "kVIES made some observations, which were
lair: rek;ur"'Pectitig the army estimates. He argued,
„..(1 -I„,'l4at ,-.7-4 of the duty on malt would be a mos
I.ll,"'ea i,;'"ef to the oorer classes. The relief which
itt' 4[11,',..4 en, to the Pmercantile class was very little.
t."tt%° thri,'` (4 the duty upon shops was of little importh
' itt poi
ot viw, as the- shopkeepers made t e
Sad
t, ‘tP4Y for the burdens which were imposed upon
on j.itgvi,aa ti `,for reduce the duties upon houses in,
,gene
duty
14,14,. eettv:„ the coon ry substantial rebel ? 'I 'tie
i_ (114-1,-.'.. hkit-.l,,Was of little itnpurtance—it waseertainly.
I uueti"' tvl,i,eir were other duties of much. more c_oir:o
,(',114,1‘4101,1 4 were entitled to the pr •lerence. 1
,e'ilu.,,, ii,l Y showed that Itlanchester was ably repre-
Poiuth- Uot,-:':7 would grant tutu a Committee, he
61' iv ''l the ') Would torten his existence it they did not
f°4l tei:,lider4titi,L4l'ut making vet), import hooped,n
Bit t: the ,N
s') in the army estiniates.He there-
ea
41. Itt.:01" Lord woul•I consider the matter well.
I° rendlill'ett u '4'.-1-vett, that it had been said that the
give .er bi,""ived upou the Noble Lord seldom tended
Itah,e4ti,lati„„vtrY P4,pular. It was difficult for tnin to
11.0 ic,rikveq,rit,,,-„.t°
„rtt'o.e ,‘, 1., entertain hope, of cunside-
,4d roet `.°o•lally Li 041 ohservati,o was just. Thule
't tut,r With au
°p led the situation of the Noble Lord,
Sii• it., i!tai,l4o,..Oositiou only anklutr, to throw °myna
tite,,,• ' ,-t1) (h, ' by clatnouring aeatust tixation. He
IV k (".'t to • " hot
ktule,L,, 4Vu, 4
_mean to pursue that course ; for he
14,_ util.
uuttaine as unpopular as that of the
kii"ll,Al4/100
1 lx. Pkt,
t"013.S retuark Was inaudible in the gallery.
' atintael---hte had given the Noble Lord

the benefit of his own quotation. So far ft.= wishing the
reductions more c:oisid.rable: so tar from asserting that
he had not gone to the full extent consistent with t''e pub
lie interest, he would say that it wool i have been very
bad remount. to have gone far her. If he had proceeded
to in .tre such reductions a. 11,.tild have cut off all h lie of
the legitimate reduction of the public burdens by i-ju,.rig
the public credit, by refusing ro dise'orree the putdie
ohL-
gations, he could see no p licy in re unjust He could
see no p 'hey more unsounti than that which uoul.l cut ',ff
such h •pes. He did not propose toblame him for nut in
creasiog his reductions, but for eoing too far with a de-
chning revenue.
ALTMORP dissented.

ib edon ; b R SirROBERT PEEL
hbeed tLohe
roNoble Lord'sttr par-
The O
had spoen on te Nigg 's n
Noble Lord stid, that the revenue for t e y, at ending
the sth April, 1832, was 46.618 000/ ; that of the year
ening sth Air, il, 1833, was 46,852.000/ , while the Es.
tiliaatt.s for the curien year ate estimated 46 500,0001.,
being a decrease of ibout 350,0001. below the revenue ut
1833. He beli ved be was correc..—(" Yes," from Lord
Althorp.) He was only eta ing the estimated revenue of
1834, in which there was an anticipated decrease of
350,0001., as the estimates of 1834 were giv n by the
Noble Lord without the deduction of the 1,056,0000
for taxes to he reduced, and 516,000/. of surplus. He
was t,,ereture justified in sa),ine, that the Noble Lord
himself, by his statements, had atlini•t,,d that in his (Lord
Althorp's) own opinion, the reductions were made, nut on
an improving nor on a stationary, but on a declining re-
venue. But suppose the Noble Lord should be disap-
pointed iii the amount of the revenue which he expected in
the course of the present year, it was impossible exactly to
ascertain what th it amount would be. In his opinion,
therefore, he thought the Noble Lord had gone to th- full
extent olio tolent reduction ; for, although he agre d with
the Noble Lord in doubting the policy of matn,airting a
large surplus revenue, care ought to he taken to ptovide
what might be necessary to meet a sudden contingency.
Five hundred and sixteen thousand p -unds was, in his
opinion, the least sum that could solely be reserved as a
surplus fur any such purpose. In the general view of
taxation also taken by the Noble Lord he entirely con-
curred. He was persuaded that it was wise to leave the
system of our taxation on the saute b.sis on which it at
present stood. To change it, for the purpose of intro-
ducing iinother system, however, from re isonings a priori,
that system might be preferable, would be to unsettle all
the babies of the country, and all the dispositiou of its
capital, which was accommodated to the present state of
things. Even if the existing system were a bad one,
(which he by no means admitted.) any very extensive
change might, nevertheless, he productive of injury. He
thought, therefore, that the Noble Lord had done wisely
in !ejecting an income tax. The inquisitorial character
of that tax had always rendered it obnoxious; an I although
it might be desirable,on a great emergency to impose it for
the put pose of raising a large and certain revenue, yet
he did not think th it it would be wise, for a sum so com-
paratively tonal as two or three per cent., to incur the
°ilium of ad ,pting a measure likely to create such general
disgust. And besides, if it were imposed at all, it must
be imposed on all parts of the empire. Now the applica-
tion of it to lie! end would be a matter of great difficulty.
—(A laugh.) He wished to see Ireland as much favoured
as .as possi,le, consistently with justice; but if a proposi-
tion were made to apply the income tax to England and to
Scot and, and not to Ireland, he, for one, would say at
once that o such a proposition he could not give his con_
sent.—(Hear, hear.) F cling, as he did, the difficul,v
which would attend the commutation of other takes in

- Ireland to in the pre, tit state of Irish tax•ition, for the pur-
pose of mposing a property tax, he was bound to say that
he thought the Ntiole Lord bad acted most wisely in
avoi dug any agitation of the question. He also very
much doubted whetter the la outing, classes would derive
atty benefit fioin the imposition of an locum- tax on t
rich. The diminution of the means ot erapl.ying the
labouring class would fall much more lie.tvily tin that ela-s
t:,an upon those by whom they were employed. Of the
reduction of the duty on cotton he highly approved, and
he trust.d it would remove all ohstac es to the it ci ease of
our in mulacture of that article. He also approve.' or the
reduction of the duty 011 tiles. Aire, the reduction of the
duty on slates, it was OtIV•OUS that the first reduction should
be or the duty on tdes. Unpopular as the dec aration might
be, he must ale,' say that he p meetly a.grero with the N b'e
Lord in the expritie, cy iit not taking off the duty tin neAs-
pap rs. That was 4 description ot property whieh Was not
labouring anti paining 'Or reli.f, anti Lie believed tnot much
greater henefit could b- derivrd by the cornmuliity firm]
the remission of titer taxes. Witt) respect to t,.e Ndhle
Lord's pr,position as to the house and window
du y—
namely, that in t. e ease ot shops there be a nom,

.ton o duty where tl:e windows e apolie Ito slo.p pur-
poses, and ,h it orpter the game elrelllllS atm s rh le mould
b., a ptopoltion,se remission ot }muse duty, he wis ,ippre-
hensivr that „urh a plan would give gr-at en, ourag,-to.-nt
to itauo ; ant it would he very d,ffivult to tstibl eh a
vu reit, test of that application of a window to put pose. of

trade %, hich would con,titote a right to exemption boom
duty. Upon hr whole, however, be approved of the
Niiti!e Lord's propo-itions in genet al. His only doubt
was—and he caret not it this sta.-Ineut were unpopular or
not—Lif he Nob'e Lord bad not gone too far in the way of
reduction. Ot thi-however, lie was sure, that in older
to maintain puhlic erttlit the principle of reduction had
been car, ied tar enough, and he for one would not pug)
his Majesty's Government to carry it any further.—(Hear. )

Sir S. WHALLEY expressed hi'. regret (as we under.
stood the Hon. Member) that the N 'tile Lord had not
proposed a tax on the Funds, and the entire repeal of the
house and window dut:es. The insinu &nu hy some of the
country binkers on a former occasion, di ,t the conduct of
the metrop. lis ought to lie watched with respect to the
house and window tax, was a strong proof that the
house anti window tax bore unequally on the people of the
metropolis. The Noble Lord said that he was not prepared
to press the totd repeal of the house and window lax ; but he
earnestly and respectfully implored him at least to revise
that part of his plan which respected the remission of the
duty on windows applied to shop purposes ; as lie per
feet!), agreed with the Hun. Baronet, that it would open
a door to fraud, and as lie was persuaded that it would
relieve not the smaller classes of shopkeepers, but only the
aristocracy of trade. It would be infinitely better to re-
peal the du,/ on houses assessed to a certain amount. But
lie implored the Noble Lord to dii ect his attention, at as
eat ly a period as pus-ible, to the total repeal of the hou-e
and window tax. It was utterly irnpo.siLle that, in their
present depressed state, the lower classes of shopkeepers
could long continue to pay that tax.
111 r. O'CONNELL observed, that the merriment with
which the H- use hail received the Right Hon. Baronet's
allusion to the property of Ireland was quite consistent
with the conduct which they had pursued in other re-
spects towards Ireland. It was not surprising that those
who treated the individuals of that country so harshly,
should regard wi h harsimese the country itself.—(Loud
cries of " No, no, no.") Let it, however, be recollected,
that out of the forty-seven millions of taxes raised last
year, nearly forty-two millions were raised by taxes com-
mon to both countries, and th it the relief proposed by the
Noble Lord would fall on the four or five millions of taxes
which were not common to both countries. Did the Hon.
Baronet, when lie excited the laughter of the House, by
speaking of the difficulty of taxing Irish property, recol.
lect that there was a tax on property already in Ireland—
that there was a tax on personal property—that there
was a probate duty and a legacy duty ? For his part, he
should preler a property tax in Ireland to asy tax on the
springs 01 productive industry ; because then the amount
of taxation paid by Ireland, which was now out of
sight, would be apparent and understood. Since the
peace, scarcely any taxes had been taken off Ireland.

he entire relief torn taxation which Ireland had ex-
perienced since the peace, did not exceed half a mil-
lion. Nay, utter the peace, an additional taxation, no-
minally of five millions, had been imposed, by which,
however, the revenue had actual y lost two millions
and a half—a proof that Iteland had been taxed enough
during the war. There was nothinc in the proposition
of the Noble Lord beneficial to Ireland, except perhaps
the dimitiu ion of the duty on advertisements in newspa-
pers. Up to the year 1814, the duty on Irish advertise-
ments was Is. on an advertisements of ten lines, and a
proportionate increase according to the length of tile ad-
vertisement. The produce of thrt duty in 1814 was
24,234/. A duty of half a crown was th.n substituted,
and the constquence was that the revenue fell a third. By
the present proposition of the Noble Lord, the English
newspapers would have three times the advantage of the
Irish newspapers;
for while 18,1. was take. ..rt. the ad-
vettisements in English newspapers, only 6d. would be
taken tiff the advertisements in Irish newspapers. But
his amingement of Ministers was no doust made to
favour those great monopolists of the fourth estate, who
at one tiate condescended to throw their shield over his
Majesty's Government, and at another time thought fit to
apply to them the rod ; that mighty ‘. we" of the press,
bona whose attacks su many shrunk, and whom so few
nad the moral desperation to set at defiance. lie should
tie happy to see the period when that monopoly would he
entirely destroyed. Such a proceeding might diminish
he revenue in souse degree, hut at the same time it would
xt-disively Lien•lit. the tioinniuutty. The present prop-
'won, however, of tb N•ible Lt,rd, tvuuld give to English
newspapers a great and unjust advantage over those of
Ireidu,?. The only remission of duty proposed
_by the

! Noble Lord which would benefit Ireland was the duty on
soap, and dm it would ate •-nly indirectly.
Sir ROBERT PEEL proves ed against the unfairness
end injestioe with welch the Hon. and Le rned G.-ntle-
men imputed to him that he had spoken of Ireland
in a tone of hershnees —(Hear, hear, hear ) Be ap-
. peal-t 1 to the House if lie had tis.•d a single expres-
simi which could be so niterpreted. It wou dhwe be n
very had teste if he had done so, and the only worst taste
was re attrihnte a elispesition to insult, where none such
existed. He di I not wish to he so misrepresented; and
he could not rake a better opportunity of protesting against
a practice which was quite unworthy of the Hon. and
Learned G ndeman.
Mr. O'CONNELL ol:served that all he had sail was,
that when the Right Hon. Baronet spoke of the property
of Ireland. the House had treated the subject facetiously.
—(No, no.) There was undoubtedly a laugh in the
House at the time. The Heus- was ready enough
to pass measures for coercing Ireland, but the moment that
Irish p operty was talked of it created a smile of derision.
—(Na, me)
Mr. E. L. BULWER said a few words, the import of
which we are unable to collect.
Mr. PA LNIER (Berkshire) was exceedingly grateful to
the Noble Lord (Altherp) fir the reductions he had been
able to mak- in the burdens.of the people. But there was
one particular burden, on the subject of which he had
presented many petitions to t' e House, and which he had
hoped might, in sortie degree, have been alleviated—he meant
the malt tax. It was impossible, the Noble Lord said,
to reduce this without substituting some other in its stead,
But he must say, lie m ntirely agreed in what had been
stated by the Hon. Member for Aliddlesex (Mr Hume),
teat in reducing a portion of this tax they would run no
risk whatever of seriously diminishing the revenue de-
rived from it. Ile hoped the Noble Lord would consider
this subj ct again, and that at some future and early op-
pm tunity he would give to the agricultural interest the
benefit of a reduction. The reduction on tiles he thought
highly proper. He could nut say the same for that on
bailiff., as it would benefit a class who, if they required
such assistants, were able to pay the tax.
Mr. A. BARING did not know a more fitting occa-
sion than that for making a few general observations on
the system of taxation in this country. He had the mis-
fortune to differ in his views of th-se matters with every
Government since the general peace. At that epoch,
there were amongst diff rent Statesmen in that House
two decidedly Jiff rent views adopted. One of them was
that which undoubtedly, and in his opinion unfit tunately,
was the most popular—that of continued reduction of
taxation, r.serving no surplus whatever of the public re-
venue. The other he had always held to be the title,
and by far the most honest policy—that of inducing the
country, by adopting higher views, by acting on loftier
principles, to beer the extent .of pressure unrepiningly
for a time, that they might, gradually and surely,
diminish that monster, which they now looked at in coni
plete despair. It appeired, however, that the little that
did remain of marginal surplus, had been reduced more
by the Noble Lord opposite since his accessio❑ to
office, than by any Minis er that preceded him. He del
not impute blame to the Noble Lord, for he was only Ml-
lowine in the steps of others. Such was the pressure
from without, that he admitted it was irresistib'e. It was
a most unfortunate ci cumstatice, that all the Statesmen
of this country had, one after another, abdicated their
duty, and yielded en these points. He was convinced in
his own mind, that if an opposite course had been taken,
the state of our debt would, by this, have borne a very
different aspect. Had economy, the closest economy, been
exercised, an•t our public fungi ionaries acted in the spirit
he spoke, we might have mastered the great part of our
vast difficulties. Had we fought with the debt and
turned it into terminable annuities, we might in our own
time have seen it nearly liquidated. He believed too, by
acting in this spirit, by rousing the courage and the pride
of the nation, we might have accomplished this without
pressing very seriously on the energies of the people.
What was Pitt's system at the close of the American war,
when the country was, perhaps, in a more weak and de-
sponding state than ever she had been—when her im-
mense culenies had been cut off, and her resources were
apparently alrn•ast exh lusted? There never was a period
when the people looked more earnest y or more anxiously
—and very n itui ally so— or iinined ate relief. He re-
c.d.(' the people to a se. se of their duty—he invigorated
them by hr. Lily principl, B—and showed theta tee coui se
w •ich a proud nation ought to pursue. For the ten years
subsequent to the close of that war he did nut think any
thine was done with the taxation of the country, save to
air to it. Had this principl- been prop-rly followed up by
his successers, he was satisfied we ne.ght, have mastered this
debt. We might even yet hope, by lel ',wing the examine se(
us to see the termination of teat immense burden which
we were new looking at with so much (bread. The meteor
the in ney inerk.t 111 this country was a very peculiar one.
If we were net in a state to reduce t interests of our
S ticks, it was because the credit of the country had been
injured by the remise of conduct we had adopteel. Instead
of Parliament having listened to dishonest advisees, they
aheulit have fuliewed a more straightferwatd—a more
in any course— ,nd he di I not doutit out we mig it have
then been enabled to reduce the 3 per c tits. into 2 ;
and tills have realised five or six millions by legi
means, for the !eduction time tnalt and ether taxes —(The
Hen. Member here weet into a verii ty of statements about
the money market. to show how cheaply mine), ceu d b .
obtained; dna then proceeded to say, that i• the sinking
fund principle had been prepeily maintained, we should
by teis time have re, used the interest of the debt full one
sixth.) S ill he imputed no blame to his M mjesty'a Minis-
ters. Tory had found the current as it was, and had gene
ith it. and tended to its increase. No person was more
gratified than he was at the reductions in the public ex-
penditure. He incite rticularly gave praise to the Right
Han. Baronet at the head of the Admiralty for the deter.
inination, and be must also say the judgment, which he
had evinced in the matter of retrenchment. He believed,
too, that Ministers bad disposed of their surplus as judici-
ously as they well could. For the agricultural classes, to
be sure, there was but a very small boon—the abolition of
the tax on carts. This was a great vexation, though not
of serious amount, and he was glad t'ae trumpery thing
lied been got rid of. He should have been glad if
imething had been done with the Malt Duty.—(The
Hon. Member here went into some arguments, we sup_
pine we must say, about the Beer Ceram ssion, and the
Malt Duties ; but as they were perfectly unintelligible we
shall not venture to touch upon them.) He was highly
pleased at the proposed reduction in the duty on soap; it
was most desirable as well for the morals as for the corn-
fort of the people. He would touch rather, however, that
they had wholly abolished the impost, and substituted in
its stead a duty on foreign tallow. It would hive been a
great relief, and done away with a vast mass of fraud,
He confessed the repeal which gave him most pleasure
was that of time duty on raw cotton, and he should advise
his Majesty's Ministers to watch carefully the remaining
duty, and repeal it as soon as they were able.—(After
thus approving of the reductions made by Ministers, the
Hon. Member proceeded strongly to deprecate them, as
there were two other experiments about to be tried which
might materially affect the revenue—the one the trade to
China, the other the management of our Indian empire.)
Hints had horn thrown our of time expediency of taxing
the public Fonds. Now, supposing this phi) was per
fectly jar tifi.hle—whieb he by no in sane allowed—was it
in every other respect desirable? Who were the persons
chiefly interested in time public Securities? He had moved
for a paper on this subject, which had been laid or, the
table of the House, and which, when printed, would
show some curious particulars well worthy of the
attention of the House. From this they would learn
that there were about 279,000 persons having pro-
perty in the public Securities. No Gentle' ran
would easily guess what number of those drew divid•nds
of 2,0001. and upwards. They amounted to 71 only.—
(Hear, hear.) There were 103 balding in trust for
so. ieties arid corporations, but only 71 as individuals.
The number drawing lees than 2001 per annum was
263 000. To this 279,000 might be added about
250,000 who had property in the Savings' Banks. There
were thus 540,000 families whose property was invested
on the credit and faith of the country. If then there
were any persons actuated by a desire to attack the public
funds let than look at those they would inieee—let them
not think they were pulling down the great man's wealth
when they were in fact confiscating the poor man's all.
In conclusion, he must say that be never listened to
these financial statements without melancholy and disgust.
At the seine time he repeated that he meant no imputa-
tion on his Maj. sty's Alinistets ; but he only wished they
would endeavour to cultivate better feelings in time coo•
triunity on these subjects, and rouse the people to a sense
of those high principles by the adoption of which they
could only hope ever to extricate the country from her
many difficulties.
An Hon. Aleenaita said 2 few words which were in-
audible in the
Alderma❑ THOIVPSON was much pleased that a re-
duction in timeline iesurances was proposed—a measure,
the propriety of w Web he had long pressed on the notice
of the Noble Lord. At the same time he hoped the prai-
cyle would be curried much farther, which could sateiy
he done without any injury whatever to the revenue.
He should take the liberty of forwarding some documents
to the Nuble Lord, which he was sure would satisfy
his mind of the truth of what he stated. He theughta
too, that the Noble Lord should have equalised the soap

duty, and had he done so, he would have prevented a great
deal of -mu r cling., and by the consequent giving- mig-rt
have alto:ether removed the taxes upon houses. lie
wished such a course h 1•1 been pursued, bevau-e he m ist
iy, that he was n., admirer of partial reduction.. The
continuance of the house duty WAR made the means of
much a Only the very day before the election for
the liotough of Sunderland, there were surcharges made
upon all the hous-holders th,-re, who were so much
alarmed ,hat there was great difficulty in getting them to
exercise their elec•ive franchise. He should have been
glad to tee the whole duty repealed, especially with
Bard to the lower class of householders. There
was another tax which he should have been glad to see re-
duced—he me nt the duty upon tire insurances. If that
hid been reduced by one half, it would be a most eaten-
' sive advantage to the public. He was glad that the duty
upon shopmen and p Tters, and inferior servants was re-
duced—the more so, as he knew those taxes had fre-
quently been made the means of making most improper
surcharge. On the whole, he congratulated the country
upon the riduction which had taken place though he should
have been pleased to see it evended to other objects.
Mr. ROBINSON srid it must he exceedingly consola-
tory to the country to know that the income of the last
year bad exceeded the expectations of the Noble Lord op-
posite. But one observation arose upon it which he should
like to see adopted. The Noble Lord said he had a sur-
plus of above 500.0001. That sum ought to be applied
in reduction of taxes. That was the principle he should
wish to press on the attention of the Government. He
was sorry to see that there was nor one instance of a tax
tieing altogether abolish, d. T.,e machinery for collect-
ing it still remained, if the tax was only reduced. It an
opposite course had been pursued, the reductions might
even have been greater than they were. He thought that
when the Ministers were (haling with the house duty, if
they did not take off the duty altoghether, they ought at
least to have removed its inequality, which had caused so
much ill feeling. throughout the country. The remedy
might have been effected by a new assessment and a new
mode of valuation. He gave credit to the Government fur the
reductions which they had made, and which amounted alto-
gether to betwe-n three and four millions a year. He
thought the reductions might have been better had they
been more directed to the relief of the productive industry
of the country; and hr was afraid that if nothing was
done to mend the condition of the labouring classes, from
whom all the wealth of the country flowed, there would
not result all the advantage that every one must desire to
see from the reiturtions that had b,en made.

Mr. SI.ANEY hoped that the Government would con-
tinue to pursue the same course as that which they had
now adopted. It they did this, and if the people saw that
there really was a sincere wish to improve their condition,
they would wait with patience, and enable the Govern-
ment, consistent with good faith to t,e public creditor,
to reduce the burdens of the country. There was one
subject, with respect to which he wished to make one ob.
to-rvation—it was that of the complaints about the
inequality of the assessm nts upon large houses. The
statements made on this eut.ject were, he believed, founded
in a great mistake. The statement was founded on the
amount expended in the building and ornamenting of
these houses, and not upon their real value, or the sun, for
which they could be let. A house in Fleet street, one-
fourth of the size of one of these large houses in a distant
part of the country, was, in fact, worth much more than
such a house, and would probably let for four times as
much, although it had not cost near so much in building
and ornamenting it. The Hon. Member opposite, whose
observations bad induced him to make this rental k, seemed
if, assent to toe principle he had thus stated, and of its truth
lie was perfectly convinced. There was one point to which
he wished to call the attention of the N,iale Lord and of
the House. The Noble Lord had reduced the tax
upon porters and shopmen, but be feared that, in
the words in which that reduction was effected,
working maltsters, or those who superintended the
buildings where malt was made, would not be deemed
to be included. He thought that the reduction
ought to be distinctly extended to them, since riot only
did the state of the trade demand some relief, but the fact
ought to be 'membered that they were persons woik,ng
upon an article that was itself afterwards made the subject
of heavy taxati n. It this was done, he could assure the
N.. 1,1- Lot d that the la duction would be received with great
gratitude by the malsters throuvout the country. Irl•
was hapry to be able to say, that the reductions now made
met with ills approbaiion, and tie hoped they would be re-
ceived in the s ime manner by the people at large.

Sir T. FRE‘IANTLE could not forbear expressing
his wish, that when the Noble Lord reduced the outy on
=twine insurances, he had reduced the duty on fire in.
8111alices, especially with resitect to agricultutal produce.
Toe duty o❑ fire ;nsurances, as it now stood, amounted to
200 per ern.. The agricuttulal interest thsetved some re-
lief, and this would have been partirulatly useful, as any-
body must be convinced, when it was recollected that agti-
.ul oral produce, (men lying at some distance fro it the
hou-e, was peculiarly ope❑ to depredation, and, as the un-
hapoy instance of past years had !moved, was often made
tee subject iit depredation. This reduetion Was the more
desirable, since that which had been said to take place
with regard to marine insurances equally happened
with reg mi to fire insurances ; many policies were
now, in consequence of the high rate of the duty here,
• ffccted in Pails upon houses in ttis country, all of
which would be eff,cted in this country, but fur that
circumstance. He should have been glad, too, to see the
malt duty reduced, but as a Chance for of the Exchequer
always fully male up his mind before he came down to
the House with the budget, and as an bumble individual
like himself was not likely to be able to change the de-
cision ot the Government, he supposed he must look at
the !eduction as hopeless in this session of Pailiarnent.
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Berkshire, in ex-
pi/aiming his regret, that while above a million of taxes had
been reduced, the ap,ricularral interest had only been al-
lowed the benefit of a paltry 30,0001., for that was, he
believed, the amount of the dill on taxed carts. He
thou:slit 'hat the statement of the Nab', Lord afforded the
most gratifying prospects, the more especially, as the pre-
sent unproved state of the revenue did not arise from the
increase of taxation, but from a reduction of expenditure.
tie gave every credit to the Government for tins reduc-
tion. He believed that the people were now satisfied of
the wish of that House to relive them from the burden
of taxation which pressed so heavily upon them. But
there was one other matter to which they now wished
the House to direct their attention, and that was the sub-
ject ot local taxati n.—( Hear.) Toey complained most
bitterly of local taxes, the amount of which was so consi-
derable.—(Hear.) A sum et 45 milli( os was taken from
them most unovoidably by the Noble Lord, and a sum
equal to one fifth of that amount, or 9 millions a year,
was taken from them by local taxes. Tue House ought
to take this subject into their consideration ; and he
thought they could not do anything better tha❑ begin, as
speedily as possible, to see bow the amount of this local
taxation might be reduced, and the abuses connected with
it remedied.—(Hear, he.r.)
Mr. HALCOMB was sorry that the window tax had
not been repealed, because it operated to produce a bid
system of building, and injured the health and the corn-
foi tof all classes of people. A distinction was now made
between the house and window duty, but in effect they
were the same tax. He thought there ought to be a new
calculation of the duty, and that whatever was taken ought
to be taken as a duty on houses, and should be calculated
on their rental.

Lord ALT HORP (being 'genet. aly called for) said that
he should riot detain the House fur any length of time, but
he wished to make a few observations in answer to the
r marks which had been made by different gentlemen. The
mode in wtaeh the statement be had made had been re-
ceived by the House, was most gratifying to him.—(Hear,
bear.) He was quite aware from the first, that gentle-
men would differ from him on some of the topics which
he had introduced ; but the general mode in which his
statement [eta been received, was, he rep-ated, most gra-
tifying. He should begin his observations with an answer
to a question put ity the Hon. Gentleman near him, as to
the maltsters, or persons employed in superintending the
making of malt. It seemed to bins that there could be no
doubt that such persons would come within the descrip-
tion of shopmen or other persons, who were now no
longer to be made the subject of taxation.—(Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Member for Mi.,dlesex seemed to think
that the arrangement with respect to advertisements was
not what it should be; he had said that the duty ought to
have been reduced in the first instance to a fixed sum. He
did not think that the difference between them was consi-
derable, and he believed that the arrangement, as it now
stood, would be a great relict to advertisers.--(Hear.)
It had been said that the reductions he had made were
very small. He admitted that tit. reduction was small for
this year ; but in making that observation, they ought to
recollect in what a short period of time ha had been called
on to make this reduction, and on what a small amount of
disposable revenue he had to operate. Hon. Gentlemen
must recollect kow large a portion of the public taxes was
r.quired for the payment of the debt—(Hear)—and bow
small a portion, therefore, was left for reduction. Hi.
Right Hon. predecessor had reduced four millions, and
when be came into office he reduced, is the first year,
taxes to the amount of 1,800,0001. He now proposed to
reduce 1,300,0001., so that
possible tauppbelyatphpeliepdrinacti
he thought he deserved the creutt
oHleerwidaes"qouuttreinsgure, from the effect of the reduction/ that
as it was
ptieheofprreesdenucttiznonoiansentatm.

I Ihad already been c arried into operation, that the redo
'ions which he now proposed would produce a coos
siderable effect in relieving the country, The Right Ho..
Gentleman opposite had comp •red this reduction
others, and seemed to consider that it was not of a satisfact try
kind, because, as he supposed, it was a reducti ,n made epee
a falling revenue. He (Lord Althorp) denied that it was
made upon a falling revenue. The apparent difference 011
which the Right Hon. Gentlem in founded his statement,
was occasioned by the candle duty, which had not been
wholly taken off last year, and which now, being altogether
repealed, made the revenue seem less in comparison ; but
the fact was, that the revenue, so far from being a falling,
was an improving revenue.—(Hear, hear.) Of all the
observations which had been made upon this sta,etn,.nt,
that which most surprised him was one made by the Hon.
Alderman opposite, with regard to the duty on insurance ;
for the plan which he had proposed was actually founded
up,
n.Alderman upon a memorial w
fromis Lloyd's,
put—(Hear,
ot_Ha ryd '(s,tect which,d a
an the name
lllaugh)—an
when he stated he believed it would be satisfactory, he al-
hided to that very memorial.—(A laugh.) The Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin had complained that, in
what he hail propns-d, we had done nothing to reduce
taxes in Ireland. He did not admit that statement. Some
of the taxes he had reduced did affect Ireland. The Hon
and Learned Gentleman himself had admitted that the
duty on soap affected Ireland ; and, besides this, he
intended to do what he could to remedy the defects re-
lating to the drawbacks. Then, again, he had removed a
part of the duty on raw cotton; and the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman knew that there was a cotton trade in Ireland
which must receive benefit from the change. Then there
was the duty on insurances, which, be admitted, did not
affect Ireland much, hut still it was an item in the
amount of benefit.—(Heir, hear, hear.) It was true,
that the tax on glass and on paper might have been
reduced, but it did appear to him, though the Howe
was perfectly well aware of his desire to reduce the duty on
glass, yet, on this occasion, he had thought the relief he
should give, by other reductions, would be more sensibly
and advantageously felt. The lax on printed calicoes
which he had taken off in, the year 1831, had been a
great relief to Ireland. He was sorry he could not do
more for Ireland, for he was convinced that this country
conld not lay out its money to greater advantage than in
relieving and improving the industry of that country. Ile
had, however, no great opportunity of making fnrther
reductions in the present state of the taxation of the
country. A regret had been expressed that be had not
reduced the duty on fire insurances, especially with re-
spect to aericuitural property. It certainly was a subject
well worthy of consideration. Bnt he slid not see how it
was possible to reduce the taxes on agricultural property
generally; and he had not thought it advisable to make
that the object of his particular election. It was now
stated that the duty on fire insurances amounted to 200
per cent. It would have been useless to snake any but a
large reduction in a duty of that kind.—(Sev-ral Mem-
bers, " Reduce it one half.") Well, one half What
would he the consequence of that? Why, that persons
would be paying 100 per cent. more than the risk was
worth.—(" They now pay 200 per cent.") True ; hut be
mentioned this to show that he should not, even by that
reduction, be conferring a great benefit on the people.
But, let the House look at it in another point of view.
The loss to the revenue would be nearly 400,0001. a
year. Did they think that that sum could be taken from
the revenue, in the shape of a reduced duty on fire insur-
ances, with more advantage than in the shape of the reiluc-
tams he had already effected? With regard to the duty on
shop windows, it had been said that the reduction would
be open to some dispute as to the mode of ascertaining
it. He admitted that there might be some difficulty in
the matter, but he hoped that it would not give rise to all
the inconvenience that was expected. The Honourable
Member opposite, the Member for Essex, had charged him
with being adverse to keeping up the amount of the reve-
nue with a view to an annual surplus for the purpose of
reducing the national debt. To such a charge he was
perfectly ready to plead guilty, for, whether in office or
in opposition, be had altvays been an enemy to keeping
the taxes at a high point for the sake of a surplus reve-
nue. He could by no means agree with those who thought
the non-redemption of the public debt was any evidence of
the exhaustion of the resources of the country. In the
affairs of private life, men entitle:l to redeem an annuity
never did so while they had any possible mode of employ-
ing their capital otherwise; and, speaking generally,
that which was true of the individuals held good with re-
g ird to the nation. The 11. n. Member fur Essex had
also endeavoured to show that the public debt must have
been grossly mismanaged, because the public were now
under the necessity of paying three per cent, for money,
wnile it was to he had in Lombard-street for two per cent;
but the House should remember that mane, was only to
be had at that low rate upon short dates ; and the fact
that the debt of the state bore the higher rate of interest
was no proof of any lack of public credit nr confidence.
On the subject of surplus revenue, he should only make
this rt mark that its abuse had not by any means
the effect of lottering the funds. He frankly a kuow-
l-dged he was one of those who did look forward
to a aery considerable reduction of the pdblic debt
by its conversion into terminable annuities ; but he could
not bring himself to believe that tee work of reduction
could be advan wet's') effected by any sacrifice of income
in the present condition of the country.
Mr. A. BARING said a few words in explanation,
which, owing to the noise which generally prevailed
throughout the House, did not reach the gallery.
Lord SANDON was understood to complain tbat some
of the present stamp duties were found to be highly in-
convenient in their operation, and towards certain classes
of tradespeople most unjust and oppressive. He therefore
desired to call the attention of the Noble Lord, the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, to the subject, in the hole that
some us ful modifi ation might be adopted.
Mr. SINCLAIR felt persuaded that if the present
system is to be persevered in, his Noble Friend had carried
reductions as tar as was practicable, and had also evinced a
sound discrimination in the selection of the taxes which
he proposed to modify. But he was, nevertheless, per- ;
Beaded, that the stattment of that evening would be re-
ceived throughout the country with feelings of disappoint-
ment and regret. Toe people expected, and were entitled
to a far larger measure of relief than it was now intended
to bestow. What would they say, if this were to be the
only result of that reform which they mainly owed to
their own firmness? Of what consequence is it to the
working or middling classes, whether Gatton and Old I
Sarum, or Leeds and Manchester, are represented, I
or whether any places are represented at all, if their
sufferings are not alleviated, and their grievances
redressed ?—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The feelings of
the people cannot be tr fled with. It is the general opi-
nion throughout the country that the national debt is the I
root of all our national Buff, ings—and it cannot be main-
tained much longer at its present amount. The Hoe.
Member for Essex had pointed out bow the interest mightl
have been reduced if a different system had been adopted
thirty years ago; but the question is, what can be done
now? He (Mr. S.) was persuaded that the only practi-
cable course would be, to impose a tax on every species of
property for reducing, in while or in part, the principal of
the debt, and enabling the Government to take tiff the
taxes, by which the interest of that debt is now defrayed.
Unless the rich were prepared to make great sacrifices for
the relief of the poor, he anticipated that the general dis-
content would reach its height, and be productive of con-
vulsion, if not of revolution.

Lord ALT HORP said it was perhaps not impossible
that some alteration could be effected which would meet
the views of the Noble Lord opposite, at least so far as the
smaller stamp duties were concerned.
Mr. SLANEY said that in this country the humbler
classes laboured under the disadvantage of meeting an
almost insurmoulatattle obstacle whenever they sought to
acquire property in land, owing to the difficulty of making
out titles; and in a variety of instances, where great pub-
lic improvements might otherwise be effected, they were
stopped short, from the difficulties which presented them-
,,elsre., in the way of making out titles. He trusted, there-
fore, that the subject would receive the immediate and
attentive consideration of his Majesty's Government.
Mr. EWART complained of the duty on almanacks.
The whole produce of that duty did nut amount to more
than 27 0001. per annum ; and for the sake of that com-
paratively small sum the country was subjected to a most
mischievous tax. The effect of the tax was to create a
monopoly in favour of a few great capitalists, and thus, in
the absence of proper and beneficial competition, the
grossest errors crept into publications, which, to be at a I
useful, ought to be scrupulously correct. At present one
effect of the tax was, the publications of almanacks in the
hie of Man, where there was no duty chargeable, and
•heir importation into England lull of the errors which
they might naturally be expected to contain when pub-
lished under such circumeatic".

Mr. KEMEYS TYNTE was bound, in duty to his
eonstauents and to the public, to call the attention of the
Noble Lord (Althorp) to a tax which was telt as
'omit oppressive to the county which he had the hone tr to
represent. He alluded to the personal estate tax. He
:nerdy had to state, that the county of Somerset paid
4451. 15s. to that tax ; Devonshire paid 6851. ; whilst
Essex only paid 11.-0 show the partiality and injustice
of this tax. He called upon the Hon. Member for Nor-
folk to support him, for that county paid alone 8411. to
his tax. He trusted the Noble Lord would take the p.ar•
tiality of this tax into consideration, and totally repeal it.

The resolution was then agreed to; the House resit n
and the report was ordered to be received on Monday.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP. it was agreed that
the House at its rising do adjourn to Monday.
Mr. HUME wished to call the attention ~f the Noli!e
Lord opposite to the circumstance, that the office of Cap-
tain of his Majesty's Band of Gentlemen P,n,ioners woe
at present vacant. He hoped, then, that it would not
be filled up without an express stipulation, that the right
heretofore claimed by that officer, of selling the situations
in the Band whenever they became vac int, shoo' I n tt t e
considered a vested interest, and should not be allowed to
interfere with any reforms which Parliament might her .
after think necessary.
On the order of the day being moved for bringing up
the report on the Bill for defraying the expenses of ti•c
removal of trials in Ireland, a conversa•ion took plate,
arising out of a complaint on the part of Mr Hume, that
those expenses were not regularly brought under the con-
sideration of Parliament, snd placed, as they should he,
under the contr.! of that House.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE had no reluctance to submit all
expenses of that or any other kind, to the fulhat investi-
gation of Parliament; but he confessed, that in that case
he did not exactly see how it could he done annually.
Mr. HMIE suggested its introduction into the civil
contingencies.

Eventually, the further consideration of the report was
deferred to Monday.
Mr. J. ROMILLY moved the second reading of the
Payment of Deets' Bill, which he described as one of the
greatest importance. As the law at present stood, a moan
possessed of 10,0001. a year landed property may die in
deb —say a year's income ; but if he left no personal pro-
perty, his creditors would be deprived of their just rights;
or, at any rate, be dependent upon the precarious sense of
justice of the successor. A man left trustee of personal
property, and investing this in land, if he dies, tat pro.
petty then comes to the heir at law, and the real owners
may he made hegi4ars. This was not a case, perhaps of
common occurrence, any more than parricide ; hut there
ought to be provisions against every sort of offence and
fraud. For this evd, it wou d not be necessary to make
any very great alterations in the existing laws; and before
giving his plan, be would cite the authority of a Learned
judge, woo, whatever fault had been found with h m wit
indisputably one of the greatest and most enlightened
judges that bad ever sat on the Bench--he meant Lord
Mansfield.—(Hear.) This great man said, ‘a that very
honest man should make a charge on his estate in his will,
to provide for the payment of his debts; and he who did
not so, might be said to sin in his grave." The object of
the present alteration in the Law was to make it impera-
tive on all persons to make this provision for the payment
of their debts.

The Bill, without further obeervation, was read a
second time, and ordered to b• committed on Wednesti, '
next.

On the motion of Mr. KENNEDY, the Law of Irel :nd
Bill was read a second time, and ordered to he committed
on the 6th of May. The Tenure Bill was also read a
second time. O❑ the motion of the same Hon and
Learned Member, the Public Revenue of Scotland Bill was
read a third time and passed.
Mr. HALCOMB (Dover) had to crave the indulgence
of the House so far as to allow that the time for giving in
his qualification, as required by the standing order of the
day, might be extended for a single day. He had in ef-
fect substantially complied with this form of the House
by delivering in the statement of his qualification to the
Clerk of the House, but having been called suddenly into
the country on an urgent occasion a day before Good Fri-
day, he had been uuahle to complete the particulars of his
qualification, which, however, he was fully pr, pared with,
if the House would indulge him with this extended time.
On the motion being put,
Mr. WYNN must observe, that the indulgence re-
quested was very unusual, and he might say unprece 'enter! ;
and as he knew of no precedent preci,ely similar, he
would recommend the adjournment of the debate upon
the subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by
moving, as an amendment, that the farther debate on the
subject be adjourned until Monday next.
The qt.:esti, n being put, a conversation took place as to
the propriety of sdjourning the debate.

The Howie theo,iivided, when there appeared—
For the original motion
Against it
Majority
The discussion on the original question was thee resumed.
Mr. WYNN said that the Committee which would
have to try the petition would not be bound by the stand-
ing order of the House, but by the provisions of the Act
of Parliament; and that the Hon. Meinbtr had coin-
plied with the latter. He was disposed to give his vote
in favour of the extension of time sought for by the Hon.
and Learned 111-mber.

Mr. MURRAY contended that no sufficient grounds
had been shown why the standing order should not be
enforced. If the House bad hitherto observed the standing
order, it should continue to do so.

Mr. P. HOWARD said that it would be doing a great
act of injustice in the present case to the petitioners, who
were not present to defend themselves, if the House
granted that the time should be extended.
Mr. G. LAMB opposed the motion.
After a few words from Mr. GODSON and Mr. Jxavis,
the SPEAKER. at the request of Mr. Wynn, delivered his
opinion upon the subject.
T,:e RIGHT HON. GENTLEMAN said that the non-
compliance with the Standing Order was a question en-
tirely betwe• n that House and the sitting Member. The
petiti,n, under all circumstances, must go before the Com-
mittee, and they would have to decide on the allegations
made in it. It was for the Committee to decide on the
question of qualification or no qualification. If the peti-
tioners should think themselves prejudiced in any way by
the Standing Order not having been complied with, they
could appeal to that House, who would deal with the in-
fraction of the order as they should think fit.
The House then divided—

For the Motion 36
Against it 54
Majority l6
EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS.

Mr. R. GRANT brought in a Bill for removing the
civil disabilities of the Jews.

After a few observations from Sir R. INGLI9 and Mr.
It. GRANT, the Bill was read a first time, and ordered t•
be read a second time on the Ist of Miy
Adjourned at a Quarter before One this morning.

STATE OF TRADE.—NO fewer than five
shop% in Roston Market-place, and many others in good
situations in the town, are now advertised to be let. For-
merly a house in the front could scarcely lie obtained on
any terms.—Stamford News.

GAMBLERS' SYMPATHY.—Captain G., who
had, as it is called, been "cleaned out" (which is ahother
term for being robbed oehis whole fortune), not long since
at the " Northern Hell," died lately of a broken heart,
and in extreme poverty. So desperate, indeed, was his
poverty, that the persons under whose care be expir,d,
thought it advisable to apply to " the Club" for the means
of burying him; but the answer was that " they had
done with him."

TRAVELLING TRAVAIL.—A Singular oc-
currence took place on Sundiy evening last. A lady got
into the Herald coach at Chideock, with the intention of
journeying to London, and before her arrival at Bridport
she was safely delivered of a fine child, which with the
mother is likely to do well.—Dorset Chronicle.

SUPPOSED SUICIDE.—On Saturday morn-
ing, about five o'clock, policeman LUCAS olserved some-
thing floating in the liver, near Blacktriars-bridge. He
went down the steps and dragged the body of a fine young
woman out of the water. She was dead, ut did not
appe-tr to have been many hours in the water, t' e body
being quite fresh. A shell was procured and the corpse
was conveyed to Christ Church workhouse. The deceased
appears to be about 25, her figure rerna,kably fine, and
her features handsome. She was dressed in a brown stuff
dress, but had neither cap nor bonnet. Nothing was
found in her pockets, and no means of ascertaining who
she was could be discovered. On examining her body
there were no marks of violence.

THE LATE EARL OF CARNARVON.--Died
on Tuesday morning, at his residence in Grosvenor-square,
r file
ratt7t Britain, i,uncj,cueane
succeeded
ignsh:
t;e; Stewardditelaatrkr ofe
do f Newbury,Ahpal.26 father
HENRYGEORGE HERBERT, Earl Of CA INAILYON and Baron
il
PORCHESTER, of High Clere, county Southampton, in the
P'HmexrenNr axjigYeu,ni lef
the3G.
1796, ELIZABETH KITTY, daughter and heir of the late
Colonel JOHN and Lady HARRIET DYKE ACLAND, by
whom (who died March 5, 1813) hie Lordship has left
issue Lady HARRIET ELIZABETH, married to the Rev.
J. C. STAPLETON. HENRY JOHN GEORGE L .rd POR-t
CHESTER (now Earl of CARNARYON)
1830, HENRIETTA ANNE, eldest daughter
Duke
oft eNol
R.
Lord HENRY HOWARD, and neice to the
YOLK, and to the Hon. E. C. HICAII!AT! late 1.11.1%.1 r
edin life as the friend
Callington. Lord CamiA.Krosr.iitart
olitical opinions of
If Mr. Fox, and i pari_cipaior the
• who, however, omitted his Lordship
the present Premier,
• • arrangements attendant
.on the forms,
in the Moistens t
and tbenoe it is said arose
don of the present
*s poiiition to the Reform 13111, which he denounced
I::iti7Pall the vehemence of an ultra-Contervative.
married,
hAugautse

HAMBURG PAPERS.

HAMBURG, APRIL 15.—The Journal of St. Peters
burgh contains the following Deelanrion _ .

" The article published in our journal, on the 15th o,
March, announced the agreement between the Russian
Legation and the Ottoman Government to let Admiral
Lazareff's fleet go to Siaeboli. The French journals
sent this resolution ate consequent on the steps t +ken ht
Admiral Roussin. Such an assertion, incoresrstent with
the relations between Russia and France. requires cor
rectinn. Now, it was on the 2d day of February
that the Porte, alarmed by the advance of Ibrahim
towards Brussa, addressed an official note to th,
Russian Amhaasedor, to request the Emperor be
assistance, not only by sea but by land also. On the
6th of February General Muravie ff returned to Cowden
tinople, and, on 'he came day, the Porte received intelli
genre that Ibrahim had halted at Kintahia. The effect
of this news nn the Divan appeared in the first interview,
in which General Muravieff gave an account of the result
of his mission. At this meeting, the Bth of February.
the Reis Effendi put the question whether it might not be
advisable, as matters now good, to decline the aid which
had been so earnestly sought a few days before when the
danger seemed imminent. General Butenieff replied that
this depended on the Sultan alone to decide whether it
would be advisable to delay the salutary measures which
had been so ureentiv required. He observed, however.
that the arrival of the squadron could hardly be prevented
if it had already left Sebastopol, as was to be supposed,
but that, if it could he met at sea, it might, perhaps, he
advisable to let it put into the harbtair t.f Burgos, to b.
near at hand in case it should b wanted. He also asked
the Reis Effendi to express in writing his wish respect-
ing the counter-orders to he given to our squadton, and
also to place a steam-boat or light vessel at the disposal of
the Russian Legation to be sent to meet the fleet.
" In entisequence of this conference, and the formal
request of Myna. Von Butenieff, the Reia Effendi caused a
Yn*morattiblit to be presented to him , tithe 17th February
ih whith the wish expressed by the Ottoman Minister on
4te Bth of February wits stated. This decutnent is too
in. portant not to be pohliabed entire, as well as M. Bute-
nieff's answer, which was delivered to the Reis Effendi
on the same day (17th February). These explanations
will show the facts according to the strictest truth. They
prove that the presence of the Russian fleet in the Bos
phorus was considered to be no longer necessary, from the
moment that the danger which threatened the capital
seemed to be averted; that is, since the Egyptian army
has suspended its march—a result which, by the formal
acknowledgment of the Porte, is due to the influence of
the salutary views of his Majesty the Emperor, that the
Russian Ambassador, guided by a sense of his duty, anti-
pated the will of his Majesty the Emperor, by 'ending
without delay to the wishes of the Sultan, and that in
this conviction he was the first to propose to the Ottoman
Minister to let the Russian squadron put into the Bay of
Burgos, that it might be always ready to,,come to the assist-
once of the capital, if its safety should be again threaten-
ed; that these declarations between the Russian Am-
bassador and the Reis Effendi were exchanged on the
Bth of February ; whereas Admiral Roussin, who did not
arrive in Constantinople till the 17th February, had his
first communication with the Ottoman Minister on the
19th ; that it was M. Von Butenieff who on the Bth
February asked the Porte to place a light vessel at the dis-
posal of the Russian Legation to be sent to meet our
squadron, and not, as certain journals have falsely stated,
the French Ambassador, who insisted upon and obtained
the sending of such a !teasel; lastly, that the idea of send-
ing counter orders to the Imperial squadron before its
enarance into the Bosphorus, and to let it anchor in the
Bay of Burgos was determined on without Admiral Rous-
sin having occasion to take the smallest trouble or to use
any threats whatever to the Porte, and this for the very
simple reason that this arrangement hail been voluntarily
proposed by the Russian Ambassador nine days before the
French Admiral made his appearance at Constantinople.
The new destination of our squadron was, therefore, Inti-
mated before hand by the offers made by M. Von Bute
nieff in the conference of February 8, and therefore, when
our squadron anchored off Bujukdere on the morning of
the 20th of February, that Minister could not hesitate a i
moment on the resolution that he was to take. He, there-
fore, hastened to confirm what he said on the Sth of Fe-
bruary, viz , that he believed that he ought to comply
with the wishes of the Sultan, by agreeing that the Im-
perial squadron should take a position in the Gulf of
Burgos till the arrival of further commands from his
Majesty. To the same effect the Prussian Ambassador
expressed himself to the Sultan's Adjutant-General,
Muschir Achmed Pacha, and to the Seraskier, Chosrew
Paella, on the visit which these two confidential Coun-
sellors of the Sultan paid to our Minister on the 20th and
22d of February. By way of answer he received the
formal declaration That though the Sultan still in
dulged in the hope that the differences with' Egypt would
be ended favourably, and without any further embarrass.
ments, he, however, in all cases firmly relied on the ge-
nerous assistance of the Emperor.' About the came time
the French Ambass !dor, in order to convince the Porte
on his part of the attention of his Government to the in-
terest of the Sultan, engaged to urge the Pacha of Egypt
to accept the terms of peace proposed by the Sultan.
Should this step he crowned with success, the Imperial
Cabinet will certainly be the first sincerely to congratulate
itself upon it, for such a result would fully correspond with
the intentions which led to the mission of General Mura-
vieff to Alexandria, and the detachment of a squadron to
Constantinople. But till the Riche of Egypt shall have
submitted to the terms required of him, and have punc-
tually fulfilled them, prudence requires not to place too
much confidence in the sine rity of the promises of Mehemet
Ali. What makes this precaution more necessary, and
confirms us in our conviction, is the recent conduct of
Ibrahim, who, disregarding his own assurance!, and in
manifest contradiction with the promises made to General
Muravieff. has ventured to extend his military operations,
to depose the Turkish authorities at Smyrna, and to rake
possession of the towns of Magnesia and Balikeser. Re-
sides this, while the Egyptian army assumes a position
which is more threatening to the tranquillity of the Otto-
man capital, Mehemet Ali actively continues his arma-
ment., and prepares to send reinforcements to Ibrahim.
This intelligence had inspired the Porte with serious
alarm, and caused it the more highly to value the presence
of our squadron. Immediately that the news was received
here the Emperor gave orders to Count Woronzlw, Go-
vernor. General of New Russia, to despatch the expt dither.
prepared in Odessa, together with the land fere-a, under
cenvoy of part of the fleet commanded by Rear-Admiral
Kumani. This expedition, in fact, set sail on the 29th
of March, at 6in the mor, ing. Its arrival was im-
patiently expected at Constantinople, and the Ottoman
Government had already given the necessary orders to
supply it with provisions, and whatever else it might re-
quire. There will, therefore, soon be a sufficient fore -to de•
fend the capital of the Ottoman empire if it should be again
threatened, or to support the negotiations commenced
with the Pasha of Egypt. These military measures
having been taken, the Emperor, in order, by a solemn
declaration of his resolution, to raise a harrier against the
ambitious plans of Mehemet Ali, ha: ordered his Minister
in Constantinople to declare in the most positive manner
That the squadron and corps of troops sent to assist
the Sultan at the request of that Sovereign had orders to
remain in their position which they occupied till the
moment th .t Ibrahim shall have evacuated Asia Minor,
and have returned over Mount Taurus; and till the Pacl•a
of Egypt shall have acceded to the conditions proposed to
him by the Porte. As anon as this twofold object shall
have been attained his imperial Majesty, as he expressly
announced on the 17th of February, will give orders to his
fleet and to his troops to return to Russia."
Translation of a Memorandum of the Ottoman Porte, pre-

vented Feb. 17, 1833.

" His Majesty the Emperor of Russia, having had the
goodness to make an offer to the Sultan of assistance
by sea, an offer which his Highness joyfully accepted,
a conference was lately held with his Excellency M.
Von Butenieff how it might be carried into effect
with the greatest possible speed (as the case seemed
to be urgent), and the measures required for the
purpose of were actually arranged. Considering, how-
ever, the present state of thine., viz. tine return of his
Excellency General I'lluravieff from Eeypt, whither he
went on a mission from his ;Majesty the Emperor; consi-
dering the communications made to him by Mehemet Ali
Pasha, as well as the intelligence from the head-qu trters
of Ihraliim Paella, who announces to the Porte that he
will remain on his frontier and advance no farther ;
that considering this result is owing to the influence of the
military intentions manifeked by his Majesty the Emperor,
we consider it as our duty to express the lively acknow-
ledgments and profound gratitude with which we are pe-
netrated. But a new consideration arises with respect to
the required aid. Undoubtedly we must not too rashly
place implicit reliance on the actions of our adver►ary.
But as it may possibly happen that the unconditional and
speedy execution of the said measure of precaution might
excite embittered feelings, and lead to the renewal of hos-
tilities, it has been thought unfavourable to sound policy
not entirely ti renounce the n easure in question, but
secretly to agree upon the means of carrying it into effect,
if necessary. Irene means are, that the required fleet
hold itself in readiness to a,il at the first notice, with-
out, however, now weighing anchor ; that, on the con-
trary, it shall wait for further orders, to the effect that if its
presence should be found necessary, it set out immediately

and arrive speedily; that a packet boat shall be constantly
'eat!), at Rujekdere, before the Palace of the Russian
t.egation, in order, if necessary, to give notice to the fleet.
The execution of these measures is with the Russian Am-
..as.ador ; and consid,ring the kind intentions expressed
y his &feisty the Emperor, it is believed to he necessary,
,n order completely to attain the proposed object, that si-
•nilar measures shall he adopted with respect to the land
force asked for as well as the fleet, in order that this auxi-
iary corps may in case of need, he at hand, and, with
respect to its influence and use, not he behind the auxiliary
Get. This corps may therefore now comm -nce its march,
thence along the Danube, and expect the directions which
shortly be given to it, according to circumstances, by
,ur friend the Ambassador, who will be made acquainted
vith them ; lastly, he Ambassador can for this purpose
•onirounicste with General Kisseleff. This is the object
,f the present memorandum delivered to his Excellency
•he Russisn Ambassador."

Memorandum addressed on the 17th Feb. 1833, by the

Russian Ambassador to the Sublime Porte.

" I have read the memorandum which his Excellency
the Reis Effendi has sent to the Russian Dragoman, and
haven to answer it. The eratitude expressed by the
Sultan for the sincere friendship of which the Emperor
has eiven proofs, by the mission of General Muravieff, and
by the offer of assistance by s-a, will, lam convinced, be
received with great satisfaction by his Imperial Mijesry.
I shall sot fail immediately to acquainr the Imperial Court
with the modification proposed in that memorandum re-
specting the assistance of Russian to hops from the Danube
licited by the Porte. As for the modifications proposed
in the memorandum re.ipecring the sending of tl e Bhick
Sea squadron, I shall also hasti-n to communicate them
to Admiral ()trig by the Russian post, which will set out
to-morrow; but, constanrly guided by the sincere and
nenevolent intentions of my august Sovereign, I feel it
ny duty to repeat a remark which I already had the
honour to make ro their Excellencies the Ottoman Mini.
stein, on our interview in the Palace of the Porte en the
Stn of February, y'z. that at the express desire of his Ex
cellency the Reis Effendi, which he made in the name of
the Sultan, I had already written ten or twelve days be-
fore, as well by word as by pen, to Admiral Greig, to
hasten the meeting of the Imp-rial squadron.
" If the Russian lugger Schiwokoi, which was then
-ent to Sebastopol, has arrived in due time, the squadron
may then have sailed soon afterwards from that port. Sup-
posing this to be the case, it is possible that the Imperial
squadron may immediate ly appear at the entrance of the
Bosphorous. I hasten, therefore, to draw the attention of
the Porte to this point, requesting you to inform me,
without delay what the Sultan would resolve in such a
case, in order that I may take my measures accordinely.
This observation is the more necessary as at this season
of the year the Imperial squadron cannot remain in the
open sea without exposing irself to various dangers. Lastly,
I must remind his Excellency the Reis Effendi that at this
moment have neither a light vessel nor a steam-boat at
my disposal to send, in case of need to the Black Sea."
(The above declaration is taken from the Prussian
State Gazette of April 15.)

EXCHANGES ON LONDON.
HAMBURG, APRIL 16.-13 19.1.4 ; two months, 13
PETERSBURGH, APRIL s.—Three months, 1033.64.
STocitnotst, APRIL 9.—Ninety days, 14 4.
BERLIN. APRIL I&—Three months, 6 28%.
—Hamburg Papers. April 16.
HAMBURG, APRIL 12. —BORSEN HALLE.—Consider-
able sales of wheat have been effected during the last few
days for importation and for exportation. Prices are firm,
with every expectation of remaining so. A few parcels
of Rye were taken for exportation at the quotations. In
Barley and Oats nothing doing.

From 3 1 st
ult. to
sth inst. thirty cargoes of corn passed
through the Sound ; of these 11 were hound for Dutch,
2 for British, 2 for Belgian, and 5 for Norwegian ports;
1 was bound for Leghorn ; and of 9 the destination was
not known.

ars.
Wheat, Anhalt, white Rix-doll
92 to 96
-- red 82 to 88
--- Mecklenburg
-- Holstein
- Lower Elbe 7O to 75
Rye, Dantzic to -
--- Mecklenburgh 65 to 67
- Holstein
-- Petershurgh and Riga 72 to 74
Barley, Anhalt 5O to 55
- Mecklenburgh 4O to 45
---- Lower Elbe
Oats, Mecklenburg 3O to 32
-- Lower Elbe 24 to 27
Malt, Pomeranian 45 to 47
Buck Wheat 4O to 45
Pease, Upland, yellow 5O to 80
Beans 45 to 50
Rapeseed llB to 128
The following table shows the quantity of Grain im-
ported and exported :
Lasts Imported. Lasts Exported.
Wheat 322
Rye 7O
Barley - 15
Oats
Malt 4B
Pease
Beans 6
Rapeseed. lO
-- - - - - --
-

The p• ice of funds, which yeste►day began to decline,
fell considerably to day ; the sal,s eff,eted appeared to be
chiefly for Austrian Account. Discount per cent.
End of ApriL
Anglo-Danish Loan, three per cent 7lsi
Anglo-Russian
Russian Inscription, 5 per cent., 182 1 9113i
Ditto, ditto, 1831 893
Ditto, ditto, 1832-
Polish Bonds 1! 4
Prussian Bonds, 1832
Austrian Bank Shares 1190
Ditto Metalliques
New Austrian Four per Cents BIX
Spanish 3 per Cents. 4l
—Hamburg Reporter.