The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

would not exclude the Bible from any school under his
control, but was it fit that they should adopt a proposi-
ton which would practically exclude it, together with
tae catechism, and ell religious instruction?—(Hear,
beer.) He would net repeat the 'arguments used by the
lion. and Learned Solicitor-Geneeal, for no man could
follow him on such a subject without great disadvantage.
A speech more philosophical, or more tilled with religion
and practed good sense, he lead not heard in that
House; and he congratulated the Government on having
such a cause so defended by one of their chief officers.
He did net regard mere knowledge in itself as a benefit,
tut rather as an unmixed evil when unsanctilied by the
blessing of God. The question was not new either to
the House or the country. A few years ago attention
was called to the subject, and what had been the success
of the two differeut parties compotfsag for public favour?
The Earl of Ilarrowby, when a Member of that House,
took the lead in the agitation, for the purpose of calling
public attention to the want of Christian education, and
a larger sum was raised by voluntary subscription than
had been collected, he believed, for any other purpose.
Wiest had the Dissenters done? It was only the other
day that he saw it stated that they numbered one-half
of the populatien of England. The assertion was ludi-
crous, and scarcely required comment, but assuming that
they amounted to a fifth part, had they supplied a fifth
part of the sum raised by general subscription for edu-
cation? They had not. But the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Oldham was that the nation as a nation
should repudiate religion as the foundation of education.
—(Hear, hear) And if the Hon. Member in his reply
should tell him that it would not be excluded from the
general teaching of the country, he answered, no thanks
to him, for he was doing what he could to exclude it.—
(Hear, bear.) So far as his motion was concerned, so
far did ho exclude it from the national system. He gave
the Hon. Member for the %Vest Riding credit, from his
own personal knowledge of him, for not wishing to
be a party to support such a propcsition; but that was
not the question. He did, in fact support it by voting
in favour of a proposition that a nation ought to edu-
cate all its subjects without reference to religion. As
the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General said, the people
were called on in addition to all their voluntary sub-
scriptions, which were greater than those of any other
country in the world, to support a rate, the object of
which they abhorred. Was that language too strong?
Was it too strong to compel a Christian parent to edu-
cate his own children, or the children of his neighbours,
with an utter absence of all those hopes and lessons of
wisdom which the Bible could give, and leave them to
chance—aye, chance—for instruction in that which alone
rendered knowledge precious and life valuable? If they
compelled a parish to support a system which the major
part of the inhabitants abominated, were they not
doing that which, as far as in them lay, would bring
up a generation of infidels? He regretted that his
Right Hon. Friend and Colleague (Mr. Gladstone)
was not then present in the House ; and he
was authorised by his Right Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn)
to express his regret that he also was absent; but he
(Sir R. Inglis) felt that the sentiments of both his Right
Hon. Friends had been so fully and completely ex-
pressed in this House upon the subject, that it would be
well understood that nothing but unavoidable absence
had prevented them from making their statements to the
House on this occasion. The Hon. Member for the
West Riding (Mr. Cobden) had asked them what a
stranger was likely to think who had entered that House
for a first time, and listened to the debate of that night.
But he (Sir R. Inglis) would ask, could the stranger
have supposed it possible that this question having no
longer ago than the 7th cf June last been discussed and
decided by a majority of 287 against 58 for the proposal
of the Honourable Member for Oldham, they would so
soon have had it again brought before them? And let
the House bear this in mind, that what the Honourable
Member then desired to engage the House to recog-
nize and admit was in the shape of a Bill, on which,
even if the second reading had been agreed to, the
House might hate had some locus penitenticc ou the fu-
ture stages; but they had now to deal with a re-
solution which contained the very essence of that Bill,
and committed the House to the whole principle, and he
did trust that there would be such a majority recorded
against it that they would not again hear of the subject
another year. The Hon. Member for the West Riding
had alluded to the Irish colleges, in which he said the
principle of the Member for Oldham's plan was embo-
died and in practical operation. Upon that subject he
(Sir R. Inglis) saw no reason to alter the views he once
expressed; but if he believed it to be an evil in the case
of Ireland, it was not the fact of its having been adopted
in Ireland that would iustify him in giving his consent
to its adoption in England. On the contrary, in exact
proportion as ho saw encouragement given to it else-
where, in that exact proportion was he bound to resist
its introduction here.—(Hear.) With the deep convic-
tion on his mind that the proposition—plausible to some
minds, but little adapted to catch the feelings or the
principles cf the great body of the people of England—
was itself of a most deleterious character, he did trust
that the House would reject it now as they did last year;
and that if it were again brought forward it would
again be rejected by such majorities as to prove that the
principle of this House was at least Christian and reli-
gious, and that they world not sanction any plan of
education which was notlounded on the love and fear of
God, our Creator and our Redeemer.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT protested against persons arguing
this question, and appealing to the amount of ignorance
and vice that we had to repress, as though they alone
were the persons who objected to ignorance and de-
tested vice—that there particular system was, on that
question, the only system which he ought to adopt, and
that, if we did not adopt it, we were conniving at the
continuance of that ignorance and vice.—(Hear, hear.)
There was no question that the system of education in
this country must be religious as well as secular; and
ho believed if the Bible wore excluded from schools we
should not be able to get children to attend them.—
(Hear, hear.) In this country, too, it was his firm be-
lief that no educational system could bo successful which
was not founded upon the full development of the sys-
tem of each religious denomination. He himself was a
Churchman, but he did not for ono moment undervalue
the labours of the dissenting bodies. He knew how
much we were indebted to them—(Bear)—he rejoiced
to witness their activity in this field; and he hoped the
differences which had hitherto existed between the Privy
Council and some of the educational societies in England
would soon be put an end to. Very many of those dif-
ferences had arisen upon points respecting which agree-
ment was more easy than might be imagined; and he be-
lieved that everything the Committee of Privy Council had
urged and desired to be adopted, they might have obtained
by " recommendation," though they had failed when they
insisted upon stipulations. In fact, it was contrary to
our habits of self-government, and an invasion of our
municipal and parochial system, to have particular stipu-
lations enforced from a central board, though we were
willing to take them from experience, and on the high
character of the gentlemen composing the Committee, if
they came to us as simple " recommendations.—(Hear,
hear.) In the present day there Were very numerous
bodies of Irishmen in our large towns, the majority of
whom were Roman Catholics; and even if it were for
no other reason than this, he did hope the Government
would apply themselves to the discovery of some method
of increasing religious instruction which might be sup-
ported without doing violence to the religious feelings of
the people. The Hon. Member for Oldham had stated
that religious instruction would be supplied from other
sources than the schoolmaster. And that was the case
undoubtedly with the rich, but it was not so with the
poor, for whatever education was to be had by the child
of the poor man must be givers him at the school, and
the school only; and if we forbade religious education
at school we practically debars ed,him from all education
whatever. In conclusion the Right Hon. Gentleman
said that he did not think the plan of the Hon. Member
for Oldham was one which the, people of this country
theywou id
ltslaaecept. A Divine auth. srity had said, " Suffer
little children to come unto me ;" but by this proposition
practically, " Suffer ahem not to come unto
me." He should, therefore, vo to against the motion.
Mr. L. HEY WORTH said lie was persuaded that the
voluntary principle would ultimately succeed in giving
the people all the education the it was needed, and in the
best shape in which it could be given. And thinking the
system proposed by the Hon. Viember fur Oldham a most
vicious system, ho should de eidedly vote against the
motion.
Mr. FOX, in reply, said th it when he took into ac-
count the principle with which Sir R. Inglis had started,
that knowledge was an evil, he ceased to be surprised at
what would otherwise have bes ea the astounding misap-
prehension at which the Hon.. baronet had arrived as to
the opinions he (Mr. Fox) enter t ained, and the principles
ho advocated. He trusted the H on. Baronet was singular,
or nearly so, in that opinion, : For he believed that we
could not engage in the pursuit ; of any study, nor could
any science be unfolded to the mind, without a religious
tendency.—(Hear, hear.) He had always understood
that it was the business of the ministers of religion to
see after the religious educat ion of the children of
their flocks. From all the i atiormation he had re-
ceived on the subject of the National Schools in
Ireland, he was led to believe ti at the children in those
schools were remarkable for th a clearness and extent of
their religious knowledge. An. i yet the reading of the
Scripture extracts even was no t a matter of obligation
in them. He thought, therefoi re, that he was justified
in referring to the state of the l :rish National Education
schools as a convincing argumen tin favour of the propo-
sition he had submitted to the louse. It was said that
was a measure to exclude religic in; but it might as well
be said that it was a measure to exclude the sun. The
people of this country were est lentially a religious peo-
ple; and he bad no apprehension but that religion would
be taught to those who neigh t receive any education
whatever. Ile would develope t he religious propensities
of children; but he would not do that by the same
agency by which he would i mpart to them other
branches of instruction, because that agency was not
available for that purpose.
The House then divided, and ti to numbers were—
For the motion ••• 6.0 a.. 49
Against it ... 139
Majority against the net .tion
THE HOP Di IJTY.

Mr. EODGES rose to ask b )r leave to bring in a
Bill fur a reduction of the Excis ;0 duty on hops. The
amount of the duty at present v, ,as 2d. per lb, with an
addition of 5 per cent.; and he p reposed to reduce it to
Id. per lb. He alq) proposed tt tat the duty at present
owing should be paid to the full a mount. Formerly hops
had not been cultivated in this country, but had been
imported from Flanders. They t ad subsequently been
planted hero with considerable ; success. In the year
1711 a duty of Id. per lb. was first ; laid on English hops,
and a dui). of 3d. per lb on forel; in. hops. In the year
1804 Mr. Pitt had doubled the • itAy on English hops,
and had at the cause time very nsiclerably increased
the duty on foreign hops. From the year 1819, when
the clillinity of paying the Govern ah .nt duty commenced
down to the present time, the diffi lty had gone on in-
creasing, cod the profits of the he er had gone on di-
minishing to such an extent that it rues impassible for