The Sun.
London, England, 1802-05-06 00:00:00

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{PRICE SIXPENCE:

ly bet Ween the
.French and the. Dutch, could.nnk
airedt the stipulationa of the Definitive Tfeaty; and
therefore Could.not be a matter of serious concern
to thiS Country ; and ipeaking generally of the De.
finitive Treaty, he said the more it was inquired
into, the more its merit would appear:
• Lord PELHAM, after observing' dpon the nature
of the Motion of the Noble Earl, said; thit the
question, with respect to (lie specific Motion, could
be easily decided; for no such document as that de.
scribed in the Motion, had been communicated to
His. Majesty.
The Earl of CARLISLE spoke in eiplariations,
and read an extrad from the document to which he
alluded, in order to she..v its importance and tens
dency, and which, in the result, expressly .Mention-
ed that the stipulated IndeMnities should not be,
upon any account, a pretext a; the charge of the
Batavian Republic, &c.
Marquis Coitswat.t.is said a few Word, in ex,
planation:
The LORD CHANCELLOR conceived it ne.
cessary .to, say a few- words upon the sUbjed, and
just observed upon the specific nature of the IVlotion
of the Noble Earl, which fell tO-the ground on the
Official Declaration that no such Docament had been
communicated tO,
then
Majesty. The Noble and
Learned Lord then adverted to what was said re:
speaing the Projet given in at Lisle, and contended
that it was not fair to, argue upon a principle which
in effect was, that the present Ministers were not
right in departing frOm the line of condud adopted
by theit predecessors,. and were wrong when they
abided by it. If the good faith of nations was a
security, (and if it was not, all Treaties what_
ever were.'no more. than trash of waste paper);
there was as good security now for the per.
formance of the stipulation in favour of the's Prince
of Orange, as in any former instance:, Adverting
to the Separate Treaty, he expressed his hope, that
it would not go .forth, that the demands of this
"Country,can be-narrowed-or restrained with reaped
to the Contraaing Parties, by any Treaty which
any of the others chose subsequently to make. As
the Treaty 'in which we are concerned, was the
ad of all, and each of the COntrading Parties, who
were respectively hound by it, each to all, and all
the Parties to each other, so it was in -the case Of
Individuals ; therefore, ,theother Contra ling Par-
ties, France, Spain, and Holland, were as much
hound
.to this country, as if no, such subsequent
Treaty had taken place. -With respect collie point
more particularly under consideration; namely, '
the interests of. the Prince of Orange; his. Lords
ship, seeming to, advert to the Preliminary Treaty,
,observed, that the advice given by him, was really
and concientiOusly what appeared to him, under all
the circumstances of the case, Most likely to for.
ward the interests of that Prince ; it was certainly
matter of Opinion; it may be mistaken, but it was
honestly given ; and he would press the considera.
don to the House, whither it was really for the in.
terest of tharPrince to, raise difficulties and doubts
respelling. the provisions of the Tteaty in his lie.
half, which
.may not be raised or conceived if the
good faith of the Contrading Parties was trusted to..
Lord GRENPILLE.6:pressed his hope that thesis
was no man, at least in that House, of so depraved a
mind as to wish by ary Means whatever to Weaken
the security of the Prince of Orange; on the con..
trary, it was the object of the Noble Lords at his
side of the House, to provide new and fresh tecuri.
ties for that Prince:—He conceived, however, that
on the declaration just made -by one of His Ma..
jesty's Ministers, it would be proper to withdraw
the Motions but this circumstance led him to the
consideration of how it was possible the House,
could be duly. prepared for the discussian of the main
3ue:stion of the Definitive Treaty on Wednesday
next,-,when it appeared that. even Ministers them-
selves were-not-in possession of a document avowedly
in explanation •of one of its Articles ? With re.
sped to the idea that all the Contrading Parties
still remained equally bound to each other, he ob.
served, that in consequ6nce 'of the subsequent
no'-longerTreaty, Holland was noonger bound to France
with regard to the point in question ; and his Lord:
ship, in referring-to what had been said relative to
the Negotiation at Lisle, alluded to
ithe delicate
situation in which those concerned in ordering it
wereplaced, in consequence of their Oaths..
Marquis CORNWALLIS agairi—fose, and el..
pressed his Opinion, that 'when three parties were •
bound to a-fourth; as in the ease in point, a subse,
quent ad of otae or two of them with each other,
did nor disenga e titer;; from their Contra;} with
/he:idler two, t 6 security .of the Ptince of Orange
was not'th • c lessened ; 'and he seemed Oa' ex-
press his surprize, w the Noble TAM, for whose
character and talents he' had the highest respect,
could conceive it, as Ile74peared to do.
The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke in expla.
nation, and particularly with regard to the re..
Terence to the. Negotiation at Lisle, in which -he
observed that. no firther security had been- taken
with respell to the Prince of Orange than in the
present instance, namely the good faith of the
Contrading Parties ; and he repeated, that no col.
lateral security had been obtained. He assur.
ed the Noble Lord, that so, far from wishing
to saysany thing tending to asperse the character
of one for whom he had so high a- -respds he
would even appeal to the Noble Lord, and ask, -if
in the intercourse they had for. nearly twenty years,
any thing appeared in his contlud as tending"to
asperse the character of .any maa ? What he had
stated respecting tile Negotiations at • Lisle wad •
merely from recolletlion, which may be, certainly
tnistated, but to the hest of'. his memory, and the
intormation drawn from documents laid before the
House, the 3CeUlity depended on tbe.good'faitia of
nations. •

II

I. I.

is

1

-Ad.jourrieti at $ o3clock.

110 USE OF COMItiON,;

WEDNESDAY, MAY 5.

~~~

Lord IRE.IVPILLE spoke in explanation, prin_
cipahy with a reference to the former part of the
Noble and Learned Lord's address. He expressed
his regret that any thing 'which had fallen from ,him
could al ke the least impression upon his Noble and
Learned Friend, that he in the least,intended to
wound his feelings. There was no man for whom
he entertained-a higher respea and friendship.
Lod AUCKLAND observed, that in all Trea-
ties, It was well known, some concessions must be
made, and great allowance should be made for the
situation of a Negotiator. .With respet to the
Articles of the Treaty in question, he confessed,
that neither the expressions nor the substance of it
pleased him. There was something degrading and
ungenerous in the wording of the Articles. He
felt some consolation from the opinion of the Noble
Marquis, that the stipulations-would be fulfilled in
regard to-the separate Treaty—he certainly deemed
it a null and void ad. 'The Article in the Defini-
tive Treaty spoke expressly of adequate compen-
sation ; and he believed, there could be no doubt,
but that the Prince of Orange's Family would be
compensated. He spoke of the nature of the pro-
perty possessed by the House-of Orange, of a va-
riety of circumstances respelling that illustrious
House, and instances' of its attachment- to this
.Country, to which he was enabled cOrredly to speak,
by reason of a four 'year's residence in Holland.
Marqu;; CORN,IVALLIS shortly reminded the
House that the security. of the Prince was under the
stipulations of a solemn Treaty.
Lord PELHAM took occasion to remind the
House, that the Motion 'being considered as. with-
drawn, there Was no question regularly before the
House. His Lordship spoke in explanation of some
observations which had been made last night re-
speding the situation of the House of ORANGP,
which was not held to be:so advanragcons as could
be wished, but at the same time not deemed a suf.
ficient ground for continuing the. War. •
The Eai-1 of CARLISLE said a few words in
explanation.

Lord HOLLAND said it would•be unnecessary .to
lay the separate Treaty before the House, even were
it in the power of Ministers :—it was an agreement
made• between Holland and France only, a.-;d in favour
of the former. The Stadtholder was only a servant of
the Republic of the United Provinces, and his claims
were not in general to be considered as a .family.
estate. He deprecated what- had been said of the
effeCl of 'opinions delivered in that 'House. He
thought it could have little influence with respe&,to
,the European Powers, and it would go very little
either to fix the charaeler of Bonaparte, or to in-
fluence his designs. The allusion was unfair and
unconstitutional, And he •cduld not abitain from
delivering his opinions fully and freely ; to carry the
principle to its full extent, would be to extinguish
discussion altogether.
Lord HOBART observed, that no Lord could be
so absurd as to suppose that such observations could
deter any Peer from declaring his sentiments. What
be had urged upon that,head-on a former night, was
not with a view to check discussion, but to state
what he believed to be the fact, that no such preten-
sions were entertained or started throughout the
discussion, and that therefore his opinion was, that
such claims, if they were preferred, must arise from
the language held in the way he had alluded
His Lordship then proceeded to the consideration of
Some points conneCted with the Negotiations at
Lisle, and remarked, that the places adverted to by
the Noble Lords opposite, were not given up to us
in consequence of the Prince of Orange's letters,
but merely conquests on our part ; and that at the
period he had mentioned, the Indemnities 'to the
Prince of Orange were suffered to rest on the good
faith of the French DireCtory._ _

Lord GRENVILLE conceiving himself pressing-
ly called upon, by a part of what fell from the No-
ble Secretary of State, spoke at some length, and
with his usual ability in explanation, which, how-
ever, related more to the Negotiations at Lisle
the former and probable •future claims of France
with respel to the East Indian Question, than
to the point. more particularly under the considera-
tion of their Lordships, ,
Lord HoBAR-r, the Loßo CHANCELLOR, and
Lord .G4:ENVILLE3 eeverally stoke in further ex-
' planation.
Earl SPENCER commented upon that Article
of the Treaty which related to the Indemnity to the
Prince pt. Orange, whic;l he said had given him the
greatest pain when he read it, and whiCh he said
must, he was 'sure, have impressed every Other Per-
on with similar sensations.

The Ea;-1 of ROSLIN said, it'wouid be a painful
though perhaps a necessary duty for him to declare his
Sentiments upon many of the Articles of the Treaty.
At present, however, he should abstain 'from any'
discussion of that nature ; he only rose to beAr tes-
timony, if it was necessary, that' his Noble Friend
(Lord GR ENVJLLE) had never swerved in any degree
from the principles contained in the Projct of the
Treaty of Lisle,
,
The LOR D explaineu.

Lord CARLISLE then withdrew his motion.

Lord HOLLAND wished to postpone the Motion
he had given 'notice of for to-morrow till Mon-
,.
aJY

• '1" Lordom Fish. Market ',dill was read a first. time.
Capt, CDC 11R AN tOGiC the Oaths and his Scat.
Mr. D "I brought up a Bill to amend 4a of the 34th
t eurge II I. relative to the Oaths *administered to Voters
at Elections, which was read a first time, and ordered to be
read a secoLd time on Friday.
Mr. FOVI'Eft presented a Petition, stating an irregularity
in the previous Proceedings relative to the Stigo Paving Bill,
which producer' a short conversation between Mr. 01-1 A R
Mr. FosTr.a, and ?dr. M. A.. TA vma, when the Petition
was ordered to be referred to a Com:nittee, to whoinilso eras
referred the Report of the former Committee relative to the
J3ill.
A Message from the Lords informed the House, their
A.ordships had agreed to several
• -Certain Accounts were presented from the Trustees 'of
Ramsgate Harbour, which were ordered to lie on the Table.
The Election Treating Bill was read vthird time, and
pass: 4.
Mr. N. NSITTA presented certain Accounts of Ex-
penditurc,, wlu4h wercurdrred to lie 011 the Table.