The Sun.
London, England, 1802-04-14 00:00:00

neeto these two-unto/et:rabic rears of Tgoo and
p. 1891, as they did on the average of the same time
revious to t 792 ; and- it appeared, he said, that
ileY'brewed it with less malt considerably. Here
Tiiti"hemitst be perMitted to say, that'as to this
Tailing on the Lower Orders of the Community,
;Td failing
it with regret; but he did it because he
to do it. And now he would ask the
loft." Gentleman who complained of this, because
nellad Obliged him to ask, who the persons 'were
~,who at the present moment made this observation?
Iroma sense, and a just sense-which His Majesty's
Government entertained of the difficulties which
canilfu-pon -the trade of the brewers, it was proposed
!lett ib take... the stock in hand, but it was to the
4,sts3rtishinent of the Government, and it would be no
less to_ the astonishment of the Public, this for-
ear:lnce did not meet with the return which might
have been expeded. The Brewers took it upon
'•
Illselves to lav a charge upon the Public as mat_
of fair profit to themselves, and it was a heavy
charge, not indeed less so than that which would be
Waw imPosed in consequence of this Tax. This
a topic to -which he adverted with regret, and
he
"id not lose sight of what was due to the House
•to,
the Public for •their feelings, as well as to
wasi'V" Upon this occasion. They all felt alike, he
Persuaded, upon this occasion, but they were
fiverned
by •the urgency of the occasion. The
• to°n; Gentleman had said, that it was improper thus
as :helca a particular description of persons in trade
33-te—:°bjeds of taxation. He acknowledged the
•speftk' to be a class of persons of great and re-
Was '"le'trade, and of which the Hon. Gentleman
con,;°,,ne of the most respedable, as well as most
leo„-:,"erable Members. He had said they were se-
-110,`,.' as the objeds of invidious taxation. He did
eo,'now that these were the words, but he was
4,l,7ukueut this was the. amount of the charge Made
to e Hon. Gentleman against him. The answer
ta,.'t was: there was no gound for the impu-
-1.140n againit him ; none for supposing that the
:euse would entertain a measure so unworhily
it 'ded ; for if they proceeded on such a 'principle,
trdit would fall; and its power would soon
base,.under
it would be impossible it should long continue
a'system of such injustice. The Brewers were
t)thrne seleded as objects of taxation than any
:terneLb"tly of men : they happened only to be con.
lion `l4 an article which became a subje& of taxa- •
'3ea• ler,t was all. The same thing might be ~aid of
.oath4euerl 'wine, spirits, or any other article that
'4oa, atany time to be the cbjed of taxa-
ease There was nothing invidious in the
that: and it was impossible to make way to
r„eeies of objedion, without striking at the
Ott or tf all taxation whatever. So far were
l'lade;,,t)"• }4;ps frOm being now for the first tune
eidererf'7• 6ts of taxation, that th.cy had been con-
of e fir fel' that purpose so long ago as the timehcert li.: and'
had at any time since
.time considered otherwise c they were taxed in the
tto ofKing -WritrAoa, of Queen .A.xxe,
tites'ati
ri.,,bc.• believed, certainly of GEORGE H.
Beer o were subjeds of taxation.-
1.4 e fraud S
,411,,ty
niot himself entitled to contend, that the
Tetet,,• Proposed- to he imposed was moderate,
in
,tll fi,'"ee to the state of -the duty on these articles
Alete-rtiter times, and the duty on other articles,—
tine reeitid•the items of the Additional Duty
Beer,-and Hops, by which the duty in all
.upon the-Beer, to s-s. t td. per barrel ;
Iviitth,e said, it was them for the-House to consider
e
th p t."bil tax would operate severely,. either on
uni•
le or Private-Brewery or on-the lower classes
Ll 4 toet ,to any. degree that might candidly be
!t the be grievous. It would be recolleded, that
lOpal c`h°rntneticenent of the year 17.99 an addl..
I.eaie„.r.atge. or to speak more corrOtly, an in..
.Oliti,tt''.l)tice, was laid on all Beer,. justifiably, he
Theo t, this imposed, not bit Govern-
t, was
.4.13§5, t!'e Brewers : it was raised from 3os.
fie
that .•'e barrel.. dile price. of Malt and Hops
,4.
"Jhe -"e, particularly of Malt, certainly justi.
355. to in e,
The Beer. .afterwards rose from
and fro 142's• Per barrel—that was, from
.3•1-d. to 4d.
thatay to 4,-Td. per pot. He did not wish to
pia' thig''' ought to be cotn-
;tied' was price which
linbe Jo case; the circumstances of the
t-P--Altf 'fled ; was only stating the
Pro,,,,e,exPeriehEed last year, through the bounty
416 st -19ence, abundant harvest--:abundant in
tle r"+ the tm. •
'4 _More r t c)ouee of the earth, but in no arti-
lt elliarkably so than Barley. file owned
mind consideration impressed itself upon his
Con sortie ..stder, time since, and he thought a very
!estlltfr_able increase of .Revenue might he made to
isllpos4ihu,rll this. It was his persuasion it would be
•11ei to I,e for the Brewers to continue the price of
etr 13,irre P.ublic after this reducuion in_the price
atY He knew that Beer must soon have
danced least to the last price, front whieft it ad-
!Ottla it °r reasons which it was unnecessary he
Zin now, and- these had their weight with
ak rtn,ci__"'rg up his mind to bring forward the
• ,ouse, oucrore the House ; and he would assure the
..!sgpsidere,!at This P was a Plan which had been well
rristtad, but he forbore stating it till after the
s Recess. So well convinced were the
Aht. ,Brewed
that
itzeir Taraid'ell profit
the pr price
iogfh
Beert be
w derived
as io
row_
td4ll
11 fo they themselves reduced the price of it
'Teti 01.r.CY,,t0 thirtv-five shillings per barrel ; the
.the . whieli*vv. • % Retailer
Price or as, to enable the to reduce
11ty the pot of be.er to 4d. The sum of the
allowed to the • I Id. out of which 6d. was to be
afttiai A...prewer for the present year, so that •
i;014. he 60.41 Talc would be only ss, sd.
bti I"°t-setheaual hard h_p_i to the Trade,
knees rlging this forward
, wheri Duty under these eircum-
he Brewers, by
titl*ledged th t their own ads, ac_ wad e),T, 16d a living profit -after the price
„ti 'ist: have redurced;' and this at a time when they
ces th4ri ihta.;(l, Malt for which they paid hi,:ber
ads
agon
took lit•lea9ceth.
ain. 00 .0._,n1, been since, or was likely to be
of January last, when there_4t 4.t.s in t price of Barley, and it
aide • of, a quarter it continued to fallcon- •
d n
—n. the toth 'of March it was 4.25.
t
36483.365, tot 4.ts. On the -3d •of .April, it
sr He
wow._
.( yesterday the highest price was
wuzriettivas would
ask them, whether the Tax now
.4,c, it necessary
like]
for b..tsporessi v e on this Trade ?
y to
1,44 rio }lam to say, that the Duty
w 445)°se(1. uposs Beerof ss. sd. was

. _
! no snore than a counterbalance for the difference in
the price of Barley from 475. i id. to 365. ? Most
unquestionably the statement of the thing answered
all obje6inos upon this head. As fi..r as the
London Brewer was concerned, he might rest
his case. Many 'Gentlemen, however, thotight
that' this Tax on Beer, of which, under the pfeSent
circumstances, 'the consequence would be raising it
' to 4.1. d. a pot would not be sufficient for the. Reve-
' nue, and that the Brewer ought to be called upon
for more, without increasing the price of the article
to the consumer : to which he would observe, that
under other circumstances, he should think, that
more ought to be required of the common Brewer
yet considering the difficulty the Brewlei had already,
in some instances, experienced, he should not ask
for more : but looking, as he did, with a hope to
the reduction of the price of Malt, he had no diffi-
chltY in saying, he expeaed there should hereafter
be, either a 'considerable reduction in the price of
Beer, or advance in the Duty. But there was 'a
person whose interest ought to be considered in the
discussion of this subjeCl, although hitherto he had
not been mentioned, and whose representation of
the eft-ea of this measure had made a strong impres-
sion on his mind : whose case was different, on ac-
count of waste, and for various other reasons, from
the Brewers he had hitherto mentioned—he alluded
to the public Country Brewer. The Country
Brewers had expressed a wish to be put on a foot-
ing in this case with the Town Brewer ; he had
considered that request a great deal ;. the result was,
that he had found it inconsistent with the sense
which he entertained of his duty, to recommend
that to the House in the present state of things.—
He did not profess to be very well informed upon
this subject, but he would lay before the House,
as concisely as,he could,. the substance of what he un-
derstood upon it, the result of which was, that the
Country Brewer had a greater facility of varying
the price of his article,than the Town or London
Brewer had, He had reason to suppose also, that
the laisiness of the Country Brewer, upon an a ver-
age of the whole trade, had extended full as much
as that of the Town Brewer. The Country
Brewer's article also found its . way to Lindon,
as well as the London Brewer's article...found its
way into the Cotoltry. As much Beer, •Stc. was
broaght w Loncitm from the Country; -and' more
than was sent from London into the Country; ,itn,l
therefore therewas no pradical inconvenience to the
Country Brewer from the Measure now before the
House. He was ready to acknowledge that an
additional charge would fall on the Country Brewer
which would not aff2a the Town Brewers, and it
would he for the House consider it ; but looking
back as he did to the relations of the Country and the
Town Brewer to each other, and as they had stood
for many years, he did not see any thiol; that ought
to induce the House to make an' alteration in that
particular, in the measure now before die House.
Any thing which was here imposed on the Country
Brewer, hemight, without difficulty, recover of the
consumer. lielOoked on, the Trade of BreWerv,
both in Town and Country, as very respectable ; it
was under the care of worthy and most creditable
persons ; he had always looked at it in that light :
he lofted also on the Private Brewer with solici-
tude for his welfare.
.He hoped such a person would
still be able to brew at, his own dwelling, beer for
himself and family. This he hoped would the
case of the Country Gentleman, and the man who
lived by his labour. He should rejoice if it were
possible for him to afford to the person of this last
description, such relief as that this duty, should not
affe't him at all ; but while he felt this sentiment,
and -he certainly did feel it warmly, he must not
forget that he was bound to defray the interest of an
enormous capital of debt, and which must
_in. its
very nature bear upon all descriptions of persons.—
He hoped the operation of this tax, as he had stated
it, would not have the effeCt of making it impossi-
ble for the working man to brew his own Beer :
that it Would make it difficUlt, he woeld admit—
that it would create an impossibility, he could not
allow. Having considered this matter with a great
deal of attention,
.and having conversed with.tho.:
who were best qualified to give him istforniaL.
tiow, the result was, that he was convinced no
alteration in. the present plan, with a oriew% to•
alleviate the pres,ure from the working man,
could take effect, Without a fraud upon the Re_
venue, and which would, to a considerable ex-
tent, defeat the, purpose of the whole measure. He
spoke this, not on conj:.aare of his own, but from
the information of those who were well qualified to
form an opinion upon the subject. None could he
more sincere than he was hirnstlfin affording relief
to this class of persons ; but in his condua, even to-
wards that desirable end, he must confine himself to
those things which appeared to him to be praCtica-
ble. He admitted it was desirable that every man
might be able to brew at home. He sincerely la-
mented any part ofthe operation of this Tax, which
went to render that difficult; but he must not lose
sight of the Capital for which he was bound to pro-
vide interest ; and in that view of things, a measure
which would produce in its consequences some -mat-
ter for regret, was not on that account alone to be
rejected. He had done all in his power to ten.
der this measure as- little ..liable as possible to
objeCtion ; among other considerations, he had
not forgotten that- of • not allowing the Public
Brewer an advantage over the Private Brewer. He
had endeavoured to keep up the competition, if such
it Could be called, between the Public and the Pri.
vate Brewer ; and here he' was going to make an
observation which he received from others, but
on which he admitted he had but little knowledge
of his own ; which was, that the Public Town Bscwet,,,
had .a considerable advantage over others, Atri
count of -the large luarttities he
.brewed at ,a„tgste,i
He was given to understand, that Malt and Hops,
in point of specific strength, went furthest where;
the watt was largest, ;and here also the waste was
smallest,,many parts which in small Breweries must
be cast away, were brought into the common mass
in these large concerns and extensive process.—
Here he entered into a calculation of the produce of
this Duty, and justifieo his. former statement upon
'that head, in the 'result of which he expressed a
hope that the produce would in all .amount 'to
.2iloo,00Ol.—!It had been indeed objected to him, -\
that this produced too much ; a charge Which,. un-
derthelpreseut-condition of things, he did tot con- _

side?' as verY-NplaWridils. the! lidit; Gentleman
had Stated that there would in this case be an excess
of 800,oiabl beThicritie,Tium Wanted.: a fault, if
any, which must, especially at the present time,
besetHowett-rosbe—mr -the -right-side but here he
Must observe, that since the period, when he made
this Estimate, the sum of tbootiobt. came to be de-
duAletis.-son.a.c.cOutat_ afethe.stuaseatirnated to be pro-
duced by a duty on those who'livedin the houses of
their employers, who did not.44o—sifuntler the deho_
mination, although they performed .'some of the of-
fices of menial servants, That description of per-
sons were not included . in. the Bill which' was-read
a third time on Saturday last. He must, therefore,
take out of the account too,oool. part of the pro-
,
duce of 4,,000,0001.—50 that, under the head he had
alluded to already, instead of 1,200,0001. he could
take credit for only 1,1°0,0001. Nor was this all ;
there-were other considerations, of which it would
be imprudent in him to lose sight. On general
grounds, the Ways anti Means ought always to
exceed the Supply. This was.a period in which he
himself felt a conviction that, from the general skill
and spirit of the People of this Country, there
would be no defalcation in the Revenue.: he, speak-
ing for himself, felt confident on this subjea ; but
however well founded that confidence might be,, he
could not conceive himself justified in aling con.
elusively on that confidence, but, he should prepare
against possible difficulties, however improbable
they might appear to him. On all those points, he
had thoughts that were perfectly at ease : bUt there
were others who had had very different apprehen-
sions—who thought that Peace would considerably
diminish the sources of our Revenue. This was a
point against which it was proper `to provide.—
There was another thing to be considered. In the
first place, our Es;.ablishment, as had been stated by
his Hon. Friend (Mr.YORKE) most ably to-day, was
to be a great deal larger than any former Peace
Establishment had been in this Country ;—even if
it were not, the expellee must be greater, for we
could not now support the same Establishment as
we did formerly at the same expence ; the prodigious
advance in the price of all thearticles of life rendered
that impossible. But we were to have a larger Esta-
blishment than heretofore. 'Jr was important,
whatever our Peace' Establishment was to be, that
the 'scene should commence with sufficient provision
for its maintenance ; that we might hold out our in-
dependence to all the world, not in the language of,
boasting insult, but of simple truth. He would
not speak with certainty, because none belonged to
the subjea; but he trusted, that in the ensuing
year the,Consolidated Fund will be sufficient to sup_
port our Peace Establishment without resorting to
additional Taxes ; it was with a view of being
placed •in this situation, that he made the Ways
and Means so much larger than were judged to be
absolutely necessary.. The whole Supplies of the
year, however, were not yet before the House.
Some allowance Should be made for extraordinary
Charges, although he was inclined to think not any
would be made. But in this' state of accounts, from
the peculiar nature of them, es present uncertain,
he had thought proper to aCt with caution. If
these Taxes should in. the event be found to be
more than was' necessary, he, for one., would im.
plore the 'House, not to think of reducing these
Taxes, without first considering how the peo.
pie might other wise be relieved. He would not,
now name. what Taxes they were, but there cer-
tainly were others, which, when the question was
upon the reduaion, would claim a preference to
these. Upon the subjea of Table Beer, the lion.
Gentleman had observed, that this Duty might
materially affect the Beer used in Hospitals, and
places appropriated for charitable putposes ; he had-
only to observe, that they depended for support upon
the generosity of those whose kindness was not
likely to be diminished' by this small. impost laid on
for the support of that State, of which they were
such worthy and distinguished members. He dared
to say there were parts of the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman to which he had not adverted, but he had
gone into the subjefl Wiltit„a triomeness that was
extremely inconveniente4oimaelfe and he was not
aware of having omitted pnp,4liog material ; if he
had, he should be happy, toesupplyeit, either before
the -Sp E left 'the Chair, or after the Bill went
into the Committee, the best stage, in his opinion, for
the discussion of many topics which had been already
brought forward : but here he could not help in_
dulging a hope that the Hon. Gentleman himself,
who spoke last, was now convinced, it never was
an intention, on the part of His Majesty's Govern-
ment, to seleatany body of men as the invidious ob-
jets of taxation. • One thing more, and he should
conclude his observations to the House for the pre.
sent. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken in, a man-
ner which did him honour, on the subjea- of public. .
house's being in the hands of Brewers. He knew it
was the wish, countenanced by the praftice of that
excellent person, :to whom the Hon. Gentleman
had alluded with filial afFeCtionft he late Mr. Wit Tr.
BREAD), that publicshouses should not be in the hands
of Brewers e it was'a'thing much to be desi red. that no
pulic-hause should be in the hands of a Brewer. That
excellent person had set an example worthy of imita-
tion in that particular, but even hiseexample was
not sufficient to carry the objea of his' wishes into
effea, and it was now a well-known fact, that there
was hardly such a house in England, as a considera-
ble, free, independent Public-house, that was to say,
a Public_house where the person keeping it had no
dependence whatever on any .Brewer, nor was
guided in any way by any such connection. This
was an evil, and it were lunch to he wished it
had no existence, but it was not an evil which was
now to be created by the • prPsent. Bill. He was
,obliged to the House for its liodulgesacila; ,he had no,
filing to add except to egprgraii lifiv readiness to
afarplain, in the Comnsi ttee, wittiteVeiriay Hon. ,Mem-
iber should think required exphitiation.
Mr. WHITBREAD rose to explain. He ob.
'served that competition had .lowered the price of
beer even before the Brewers were justified by their
own interest in doing so, When notice was given
of a ruinous duty about to be laid onthe,tradee they -
were obliged to raise the price in their own defence.
It was their only resource ; for several years they
had been losers, and now the opportunity that be-
gan to open of indemnifying ttherusel yes was snatched
away from them by a severe additional hurthen.
It.was a farce CO talk of the low price on a few par- .

ticuiaf market day-S. '1.116 stock in hand had heed
bought in. when the prices were verj, high*
Alderman CpMBE made some olp,etvatioriS on
the injustice done to the public brewer.
Mr. BAKFR wished to have it explained hovi
the brewers in the parish of Marybone. were sub.:
jeded to the same Tax As country brewers.

Mr. VANSI7'T4R7' said, that the distinetiori
between the town and country brewers had arisen,
partly from ohl usage which could not be traced,
and was continued, from no particular inconvenience
being experienced from it. The difference of the
duty was compensated by the higher price .el:arged
by the country brewers ; in some places seven pence
or eight pence the pot. As to the Marybone
Brewers, they were in the country when the duty
was imposed, and it was difficult to fix a new line
cf demarcation.

Mr. BAKER explained.
ill r. WIL PERFORCE said, he was by nt meang
satisfied with what had been stated by the Right
Hon. Gentleman (the CHAITcELion. of the Ex-
,ex Eoveß) that this distinction between the town
and country Brewers was inoffensive and merely
speculative. If there was to be a Tax at all, it
was fair it should fall equally on /ill those who used
the commodity. It was alledged that the country
Brewers might reimburse themselves by raising
the price ; but we must not forget the interests of
the consumers also. In the Cotttry the competi.
tion was less numerous, 'and therefore, the oppor-
tunity greater of increasing the price, in a propor..
tion exceeding the Tax. This, in the end, would
have the effea Of driving the people from their
usual wholesome beverage, and forcitlig them to
have recourse-to the use of Spirit', on the price of
which, even the Duty on Malt, did not operate so
powerfully. The long existence of the inequality
of the Town And Country Brewers, was no argu-
ment for its continuance ; and he trusted to the
candour and wisdom of the Minister, that it would
be done away. He did not, however, mean to (p..
'poie the
.Tax 'itself, as he was convinced, burdens
were, in the present state of things, necessary.
Mr. SHERIDAN said, he thought ttte Tax most
unjustifiable, and that it would diminish the con-
sumption. He thought that those Gentlemen who
had stated, as an objection to this duty, that it
would be prejudicial particularly to the interests Of
the- public brewer, proceeded on false grounds,---
Those who have been in the pradice of brewing
for themselves would be the chief sufferers. This
class did nor comprehend only the opulent, but the
middling, and even the lowest classes of the Com-
munity. In the counties of England, for instance
the county of Stafford, a. town which he had the
honour to represent in Parliament, there 'Were no
public brewers at all, and even the poorest of the
people brewed their own beer. The present Tax
would drive that class from the pr-dice of brewing
their own beer. Lord North's Tax had formerly
frightened them from the pradice"; they were just
returning to it ; a man was again beginning to en..
joy his wholesome beverage, in company with -his
- This Tait' would again drive him to the
alehouse, where his domestic comforts would. be
lost, and his Morals ruined. It would also be.found
to prove'highlY detrimental to Agriculture, for the
diminished consumption of' Barley would,majee.lesl
&ofis be raise -He concluded by approving ; -
.14tlea of proportioning the duty, to the price of ,Malt.

Mr, PITT said, that to introduce this pro:
portion, was a very desirable obj.e.ca ; he thought
it every way expedient, but • could not at present
give a decided opinion about the possibility Of in.
troducing it.
,He observed' thar:it, was not. fair ye
estimate the profits or losses of Brewers, by one or
two years, but by an aVerage of several. The duty
might also be fixed on an average,
,if regnla tables
could be kept, and the profits ascertained for a eel-.►
taro term, perhaps seven years. This would pre..
vent the continual necessity of raising and lowering
the price. ' He thmght it very proptr that this
idea of a 'proportionate.Duty should be taken into
consideration ; not, hoWever, as "a bye article in
a Committee on another question ; it teas of suf..
ficient importance to demand of itself a separate
Bill. He considered the idea that it Would be ne-
cessary to lower the quality, of the liquor, as pro.
ceeding upon false estimates of the profits of the
Brewers. When they found it consistent with their
interests to lower the price of. Beer, when the price
of malt was much higher than it is at present, it
cannot be inconsistent with their interests to sell their
Becr at the former price, when the new duty amounts
to much less than the difference between the farmer
and present prices•of Malt. They had_ no season-
able pretext therefore for lowering the quality of
the. Beer. His Hon. Friend (the CHANCELLOR Of
the. EXCHEQUER) had advanced the most convincing
proofs of this. The Brewers were now enabled, by
the reduced price of Barley, to pay the Tax, and
have over and above, a free profit of two or three
shillings on the barrel of Beer. It was reasonable
that the Public should, reap a share of the profits to
which all. contributed. It was right that the
Brewers should have fair and mercantile prufits.,l
but it .was, also fair that the Public should reap a:(1,
vantage from ,whatever went beyond this-; the sur.
plus isnould rather go into the public treasury. I,hart
private pockets. .Upon the supposition that we
haye a succession of good seasons, Beer could afford
many hundred thousand pounds, nay more than a
Million, if the Barley shall com 9 Asdiqwas the
quarter. No principle ought .to be,p..4itted which
shoUld deprive the Country of so y-cat.a resource.

ONES stated, that he had it from -good
authority, tact many people intended to drink
pint of beer less every night, on account of the rise
produced by the present tax. It was not unlikely
that the mechanics of London might form a, Corn.
bivation not to drink Porter, and this would effec.
wally destroy the intention of. the Tax. He
seemed to accu,e the lore CuANc E Lr..o R -of the Ex.
EQu ER of suggesting this Tax, and- desiring~,, to
lay burthens on the industrious.

Mr. PITT in explanation reprobated the i.dea of
his wishing to lay burthens on the industri&ii
classes. What he had sari was, that if the price of
Barley became kiy.vr,'and beer wa'S 'continued at its
present price, an increase of du,ty might be laid OR
withont raising the price of-Beer to the people.
He thought the Honourable Gentleman shoulcktn-
arstand the sul;j,ft b_-fore he spoke won