The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-20 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Ths SPEAKER. took the Chair at a quarter-past live
o'clock, and having called on Mr. Littleton,
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL rose, and said be
P 44 a motion of peculiar importance to bring forward, in
which the character of a Judge was at stake.
An Host. AIEMISER rose to order.
The SPEAKER said that the House would decide upon
what questions were irregular and what were not.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL said the motion be
had to mike was an exceedingly important one, as it
related to the character and conduct of a Judge upon the
Bench.
Mr. LITTLETON said the question had already been
decided by a large majority of the House, and the ap-
pointment of a Committee, which was fixed for Monday
}next. There would be no House on that day, and be
Therefore saw no reason why they should now discuss the
question. Before be moved that the Speaker do leave the
chair, and that the House resolve itself into a committee.
he begged to move that the clerk do read that portion of
his Majorty's speech alluding to tithes in Ireland.
The Clerk then read that paragraph :

" I recommend to you the early consideration of such a final
adjustment of the tithes in that part of the United Kingdom,
as may extinguish all just causes of complaint, without injury
to the rights and property of any class of my subjects, or to any
Institutions in Church or State."
On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said that be conceived he was
now perfectly in order, and as it was hin determination to
oppose the motion of the Hon. and Learned Manber for Dub-
lin, he would aak,witether, under the circumstances of the( e
being no House ou Monday the Hun. and Learned Mem

bee should not name another day. He would then state
what it was his intention to do.
Mr. O'CONNELL was totally ignorant of the reason
why the House <,hould not sit on Monday. He should
therefore name Toesday.
Sir E. KNATCHFIULL did not like to trifle with the
time of the House, and he should therefore postpone his
motion until to morrow.
The STRAKER then left the chair, and the House re-
solved itself into a Committee, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair.

TITHER IN IRELAND.
Mr. LITTLETON said, in rising to call the atten'ion
of the Committee to the subject of which he had given
notice, he must, in the first place, express his extreme
regret that the statement respecting a measure of such vast
importance, not only to Elreland, but to the entire
country, should not have been placed in ablerihands. He
regretted it the more because it not only involved principles
of the utmost importance to the Church but to pro-
perty at large. There never was a question submitted
to the consideration of the House of Commons which in-
volved a question more important to the tranquillity of
Ireland, than that which he now invited their a'ten-
tint) to. He must beg leave of the House, before proceed-
ing to call their attentio❑ to this question, to caution
Members of all parties against supposing that this
was a question purely relating to Church property.
He implored Honourable Gentlemen to consider that
this was not a proposition for the appropriation of
the revenues of the Church. The question which the
House had now to consider was simply and entirely a
question of property. It was as much one as if it re-
garded the rayment of rents—bec-rse the opposition in
Ireland had extended itself not only to the property of the
Church, but also to that of the lay impropriators. It might
not be inconvenient or inapplicable to a discussion of this
nature, to invite the Committee to go back for some time,
and consider what the state of the law respecting tithes
and tithe property had been in Ireland, during the last
century. He would not do so at present, but be begged
of them to bear in mind that the Legislature had been
loaded with statutes, for the purpose of enforcing the law for
payment of tithes, and for enabling its owners to realise it.
He was sure he was in some degree making admissions to
those whose opposition be might possibly, he hoped
not, erre. unter in making that statement ; but it
was far better that the truth should be state],
and in what he had] stated, as well as in that which he
had hereafter to state, he would state that only which
he believed to be the real condition of the case.—
(Hear, hear.) To such a height had the resistance
to tithes been carried, and the resistance of the public
voice in 1823, that the Right Hon. Member for Cam-
bridge was induced to bring forward an Act which
had been of great value, and the general machi-
nery of which had given great satisfaction.—(Hear.)
The importance of that Act could riot be overrated ;
great as it was, the measure did not reach the root of the
evil. To so great an extent did the opposition go in
1831, that his Right Hon. Friend, the now Secretary
for the Colonies, brought into Parliament two Ac's,
the one to relieve the immediate and almost total destitu-
tion of a large proportion of the clergy, and the other tol
give more complete effect to the Act passed in 1823.1
—(Hear, hear.) But, valuable as these enactmen 81
undoubtedly were, and valuable as they proved to be—
one of them at least—the Compulsory Composition Act,
to which he should wish to apply to the measure he was
about to explain to the House ; still they were
manifestly insufficient, and the House scarcely requir-
ed to be reminded that the distress became so universal
over the greater part of Ireland, among the clergy, occa-
sioned by the general resistance to tithes, that the
House of Commons was persuaded to pass an
Act which did the greatest honour to its li
berality, for advancing one million of money towards
the payment of outstanding arrears in 1833, and the pay-
ment of the tithes of 1832 and 1833. It might be in-
teresting to state to the House the results that bad at
tended that enactment.—(Hear, hear.) When it was
brought in, the Hon. and Learned Member for the city of
Dublin seemed to apprehend that parties in Ireland, who
would be entitled to avail themselves of relief under it,
would by no means do so in any extensive degree. In
that respect he had been mistaken. Out of 2,486
applications sent in, 2,216 had passed the Council
and been declared entitled to relief. He should tire the
House if be were to read a statement of the proportion
of all the counties from which the applications hod come.
They had come from those counties the most peopled by
Catholics.

Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know what was the
proportion of tithe owners ?
Mr. LITTLETON was not prepared to answer that
question ; he would mention, however, a few of the
counties from which the fewest had come, and a few
from which the largest had come. From Antrim, only
3 applications ; from Londonderry, 11 ; from Mo-
naghan, 17 ; and from Tyrone, 14. He was speaking with
refirence to the properttens according to the schedules
that had passed council, and obtained relief. The counties
from which the greatest proportion had come, were, from
Carlow 52 ; Dubiin 54 ; Kildare 101 ; Kilkenny 160 ;
Meath 63 ; King's County 64 ; Queen's County 62 ;
Wexford 198 ; Clare 144 ; Cork 303 ; Limerick 154 ;
Tipperary 248 ; Waterford 279 ; and Gdway 94. The
total amount claimed, including both clerical tithes and
lay impropri ne, was seven hundred thousand and a fraction,
and he thouebt little more than seven hundred thousand
would cover the whole demand. The schedules furnished
to Government afforded the means of making many cal-
culatiens, and showed many useful results, illustrative of
the present tithe system of Ireland. In order to show
how minute and general the payment of tithes in Ire-
land was, and how multiplied they were, he had
in the first place, called fur an account showing the five
largest amounts payable by each individual in each county.
In England, gentlemen knew pretty well what amount of
tithes was payable in good agricultural districts, but the
result was very different in Iteland. In the county
of Antrim, where some of the largest amounts were paid,
there were not more than five individuals who paid
more than 61. ss. 60. ; in Armagh, not more than
five who paid mote than 51. 6s. 6d. ; in Donegal,
not more than five who paid more than 141. Even
in the county of Down there were not more than five
who paid more than 91. I4s. ; in Londonderry, not more
than five who paid more than sf. ; in Sligo, not more
than five who paid more than 71. Bs. ; in Tyrone,
not snore than five who paid more than 71. 1
It was trite that in one country there was one individual
who paid 501. ; in another country, one individual who
paid 601. ; and in another, one who actually paid, be be-
lieved, 159/.--(Hear, hear, hear)-but the House might
form some idea of how small the sums must be which
the lowest paid from the statement already made. He
had no doubt that had he called for a return of the first
ten who paid the least the sum would have appeared very
Flow indeed. To illustrate this statement still further,
he had called for an account of another description, with
a view to take an average amount of payment. After
enumerating several parishes, the Right Honourable
Member said, that in a parish of Galway, for in-
stance, where there were 1,218 tithe payers,
the average payment was Bs. 54.; in Waterford this ave•
rage was 6s. 7d. ; and those were amongst the largest
payments. Then, by another schedule, containing the
largest number of names
.with the smallest amounts
claimed, he found that in a parish in Armagh,
consisting of four hundred and seventy tithe-payers,
they did not pay en an average more than Is. 3d. each.
In a parish in Clare, containing 529 tythe payers, they
end nut pay snore than 1 s, 7 d. earn. Iu a parish
in Cork, containing three hunched and sixty five tythe-
payers, the average payment was not more than 1010.
In Donegal, in a parish consisting of 17,00 tythe pas era,
the average payment was not more than Is. 31d. In a
parish in Kilkenny, consisting of 903 tithe payers, not
more than 11d. In a parish in Londonderry, comprising
1243 tithe payers, they paid only 61 on an average.
In a parish i❑ Mayo, consisting of 338 tithe payers,
the average did not amount to more th in Is. Jid.
He bad another account in his possession, which showed
the extreme poverty of many of the tithe payers, an l the
consequent difficulty which must be experienced in col-
lecting the payments. There was a large proportion in
20 parishes of different counties in Ireland which paid
only ninepence each person. In a parish in the county
of Carlow, there were 446 tithe-payers, of whom
289 paid under 91. In a parish in the county of
Clare, of 434 tithe-payers, 254 paid under 90. ; of one
in the county of Cork, out of 1.270 tithe-payers, 419
paid under 94., and many considerably less than that
sum ; in a parish in the King's County, of 205 tithe-
payers, 97 paid under 9d.; in a. pr.siih in the county r f
Roscommon, of 243 tithe payers, 119 paid under 90.,
and in a parish in Tipperary, of 341 tithe payers 125 paid
under 9,1. Upon the whole, taking the average of twenty
counties in Ireland, in which there were 7,005 tithe payers,'
not less than 2,444 paid under 9d. each. The gentleman
in the department from which he had his information,
stated to him that in a parish in the county of
Carlow, the whole amount due by 202 payers out of 481
was 10s. 31 f., being little better than a penny per heal,
while in the larger number it was not above 7d. each.
There were a great number of defaulters whose debts
ran up from a farthing to a shilling, and those persons
exhibited a large proportion of the whole. Her
bad taken a schedule containing an immense numb',

or small; claims, and he had counted !about 140 or 150'
the highest amount charged against whom was not more
than twopence, and of that in some instances there were
several quarters due. The House ought to be aware of
tl e extreme difficulty there was in collecting sums
of that amount, and particularly when in many of
the parishes there were not less than three claimants, each
of whom collected for himself. It was important that the
House should be acquainted with the nature of those
difficulties, independent of the agitation which prevailed
in the country, for he did not attribute them to that cause,
although agitation of a cruel, unjust, and unprincipled de-
scription prevailed there. He did not allude to any par-
ticular person ; but that system had disturbed the
peace of Ireland, and bad endangered that description of
property. He was aware, however, that but for that
agitation the existing system might have continued some
time longer, but from the difficulties which existed
there must shortly be some alteration. He might,
perhaps, be told that the Act which was passed in the
last session bad caused a very considerable diminution
in the difficulty of collection, because it had dimieiehe
the number of payments ; and so, he admitted, it had.
It was not possible for him, without great expellee and
inconvenience, tc ascertain with precision what the re-
sults of that act had been, but, as far as be could,
he had obtained sufficient information to be able to
give a pretty accurate notion of the result. There were a
great number of occupying tenants, and those who under
the Act of last session were liable to composition, and his in-
formation came for all the counties in Ireland. He would not
trouble the Committee with all the details of particular
counties, but the general result front sixty-six parishes
in 22 connties, in which there were 16,231 occupiers
liable to the payment of tithes there were 7,047 as
tenants at will or yearly tenants, and as such not liable
to its payment ; thereby reducing the number of last year
from 16,231 to 9,190. That certainly offered consider-
able facilities to the owners of tithe in collecting it under
the composition, supposing that no other difficulties inter-
posed. He might perhaps be told that the result of the
operation of the Act of last year ought to satisfy theGovern-
meat that :the ;law eat present was sufficient, that it
armed them with sufficient powers, and that there was no
reason to use arguments of expedient. He only used the
fact of this reduction as one of the arguments in favour
of the measure which he was about to submit
because the Government would never consent to snake
this description of property a prey to any party, but to
make it for the support of the church in the first in-
stance, and in the next to be applicable to such other pur-
poses as Parliament in its wisdom should deem expedient.
Having inside these preliminary observations, because it
was most important that all the facts connected with this
question should be declared. He would now proceed to
detail the plan which it was the intention of his Majesty's
Government to lay before the Committe. The great ann
and object of that measure would be to find means for
commuting Tithes in the quickest possible manner, and
by the most practicable process, by the composition of
Tithes not Land. The first thing therefore fur Govern-
ment would be to confer on that description of property
all the vatuabre security it was in the power of Parli-
ament to confer.—(Hear.) It was intended therefore to
propose that from and after the first of November next
Tithe Composition should cease in Ireland ; and from
and after that day a land tax should be granted to his
Majesty, payable by the same parties who were now
subject to compositions for tithes, and payable in the
same amounts. For the first tive years a redemption
was to he allowed to any parties who should have a
substantial interest in the estate, on terms to be hereafter
proposed which he thought would be favourable to
the landholders without injuring the titheholders, for
he thought it would be seen both these parties could be
easily reconciled. Of course one of the objects of the
measure would be to fit d every possible facility for
those on whom the charge of redemption would
fall, for meeting the different kinds of redemption.
Lastly it was proposed that whatever proportion of the
land tax should continue unredeemed, at the end of the
five years, should become a rent payable by the individual
standing next in the real interest of the estate, and
also that this indemnity should consist of an abate-
ment of one-fifth of the composition, and that the party
should be entitled by a process hereafter to be explained,
to recover the whole amount against the tenant or the
party liable to composition. With reference to the clergy,
the lay impropriaters and the tithe holders—the Com-
missioners would have to take an account of the total
amount due to each party, and issue an order for pay-
ment on the Commissioners of Woods and Forests
for the full amount, subject on!), to such reasonable
reductions for costs and expenses of collection to be deter-
mined and hereafter described. Of course these sums
were to be paid to each party as long as redemption con-
sisted of money, but whenever it was invested in
land, it would be made over to them. In these
brief and comprehensive statements be had endeavoured
to convey to the House the idea of the plan it was the its.
tention of his Majesty's Government to bring forward.
The first proposition was to convert Tithes into Land.
He was quite aware that the subject of a general Land tax
was popular on two grounds, sonar approved it because
they were unwilling to submit to the destruction of Tithe
property and others, because they thought it would be a
convenient mode of including all the charges upon land in
Ireland. It was the bounden duty of Parliament to
devise means for realisiug property in the bands of the
church ; and if it should be attempted to be done in a
more general way than by a land tax on the plan
he had devised, it would, perhaps, be found that they
would be driven to transfer considerable burdens from
those who were now by law liable, ;o others who
were not so liable, and such a proposition could
not be entertained on the fair principles of justice.
It may be inquired why five years should he chosen as the
time for effecting this redemp ion, rather than four or six
years ; but there is sonic reason for making this choice,
that of the million, or about 800 0001., which was about
the usual amount of composition, such a period may
be the best to discharge this. It must be effected
either by the transfer of lands, or of the sums
collected to some other species of property. The period
of sixteen years seems not applicable to the case, nor ad-
vantageous to Ireland. The Bishop,' lands may be made
available to the purpose at a trilling veer, by being trans-
ferred to the purchasers at au equally favourable rate;
but there is sufficient reason for considering that the
rental may be applied otherwise with snore advantage.
It is fair to suppose that the four.fifths of land in the
rental may be hel; still in the same position, and the re-
maining fifth appropriated to the object proposed by the
Bill, and thus the most equitable adjustment take place by
this arrangement.—(Hear, hear.) When this mode ofl
effecting a transfer should be duly considered, it would
he found to Isossess the weight of testimony from many
who have reflected upon and approved of it.—(Hear.)
He proposed to ascertain, by a commission,
composed of
persons fully competent, the number of years comparedwith the fee simple of the land in which the tithes might
be redeemed in the different districts of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) Having thus ascertained the number of years
the purchase would be governed by the rate of the num-
ber of years applicable to tithe. As an instance to illus-
trate this position, there were some counties in which the
land was worth twee y-five years purchase, anti
in these the tithes would be estimated at twenty years
purchase.—(Hear, hear.) There were other counties in
' the land was estimated at not more than 18 years pur-
chase, and in these the tithe was not estimated at more
than 14 years' purchase. In the majority of the
countias, aceordieg to the evidence iii 1613, the
land was worth 20 years' purchase, and the valve
of the tithe was worth only 16 years' purchase.
It was not necessary to read through the whole statement,
but the three instances which he had mentioned would be
sufficient to illustrate the manner in which the measure
he had described was intended to operate. Having stated
that the object of Government was to frame a measure
which would admit of the redetnption of land tax, be
would now state what were the advantages which the
measure held forth to the landowners. He would beg those
Gentlemen who were landowners in Ireland and their
representatives to do him the favour to suspend their
judgment fot the present, for he could assure them,
and he considered that be was fully borne out by
his statement, that the measure, though it would
not be attended with the serious diminution of the plo•
perty of the church, yet it would be attended with consi-
derable advantages to the owners of land. In the first
place, be hoped that the owners of land generally
would not consider it any mean advantage that
the adoption of this measure would put au
end to the cosnbinitions and confederations which
originated in this description of property, to the innumer-
able evils which followed in its train, and which had
driven from the country all capital and industry, which
had lowered the value of their estates, and which had
lowered the credit of tne country generally. These were
no mean advantages, but ti.e measure would be attentle I
with still more positive advantages. In the firs,
lie had stated that it was proposed to give to such land
holders as were desirous of redeeming their tithes, not only
an abatement of one-fifth of the composition, but also the
power to recover the whole amount against their tenants.
_(Murmurs, and cries of " Order, order.") Surely
nothing could be snore just than this. The land
was subject to the payment of Whew. It would become

the property of the landowners, who, having purchased it,
%vote,' be fairly entitled to t!:e whole amount. if in any
particular instance the landlord chose to make his tenant
a party to the lesnefit, he was perfectly at liberty to do so.
—(Hear, hear.) He had already stated that on land
wotth twenty years put chase the tithes might be re-
deemed for the amount of sixteen years pur-
chase. He considered that this amount of com-
position would be favourable to the landowntrs
Ho had stated another proposition, viz., that those
charges should he redeemable by any one who had an
interest in the estate. He went upon the same
ground as a late Act of Parliament had laid down, that
no one who had a lower interest in the land than 21 years,
should be precluded from taking advantage of the pre-
sent measure. It was as was now the case with the
land tax, that after five years that part of the charge
upon the land should be put au end to. The law always
considered the property as belonging to that party who had
the greatest interest in the land, therefore the present
proposition was only carrying into effect the same
principle as had alre ,dy been done by a late Act of
that House. He bad stated that the payments should be
made to the tithe owners, subject only to those fair
and trifling charges attendant upon their collection—to
those charges they were clearly liable, acd therefore
he proposed that they should be deducted. In
strict justice, therefore it was impossible that one uniform
plan should govern the whcle of Ireland. He then
proposed to appoint the same sort of Com-
missioners as were at present employed, in order
to consider of and report upon the proper reductions that
ought to he made upon the tithes in each parish
and district. He, however, proposed that in no
case should the reduction exceed an amount of 10 per cent.
It might have occurred to the observation of some gen-
tlemen, that a difficulty would arise from this arrangement
and that in such a case the Clergymen would have only
80/. for every 100/., sod the money considered in stock.
It was not considered probable that any long period would
elapse without having a satisfactory investment for the
moneyl—(Hear, hear, hear.) Prom records that had
come into his possession. it appears that during
the three years that hail elapsed prior to the year 1830,
the value of the lands sold in Ireland was not less than
9,000,000/. sterling, and for the purpose of redeeming
their estates an abundant supply of land would he
always had in the market. Honourable Gentlemen
mean looking into this Bill would find that ex-
tensive provisions had been made for this purpose.
It was proposed, also, that the value of all trees felled,
and ail monies which shall be placed in the hands of
the trustees of property under certain circumstances,
shall be applicable for the purposes of that act.
There were a variety of minor details, which would
enable an adequate supply of land to be found,
in any parish in Ireland for the purposes of that Act.
The Committee would bear in mind that certain parties
had taken advantage of a Bill lately passed through that
House for the payment of the composition due then,
deducting lb per cent.. Of course, the payment of
these individuals would be considered a land tax and some of
those individuals could sustain any loss. The Committee
would recollect in the Act which was passed during the
last session tertian provisions were made for such persons
A clause was inserted making them also liable, bnt.that
was afterwards altered by the House of Lords, and this
House acceded to that alteration. They still, however,
continue liable in the first instance, inasmuch as it
was now proposed to make composition of every
dischargingdescription of land tax, and the Government taking
that upon themselves, there (could be no risk whatever in
the cleigymen from the peculiar liabilities
under which they were placed. It was the intention
also that the amount advanced to the clergy should
be first made upon the funds to be collected. He
(Mr. Littleton) knew that of the objections by which
the. present scheme :would be met would be
one that he had sometimes heard, 11, but on which
he thought little or no reliance could be placed—
that was, that compositition was undue and unfair re-
muneration for property of this description. The Hon.
Member for Dublin stated on a previous occasion that
composition had the effect of raising the tithes,
and he (Mr. Littleton) at that iime incautiously
admitted that it might he true in one-third of the parishes;
he had since ascertained that he should have been much
more correct if he had stated oue-firth of that one-third.
He believed that very few cases indeed exi-ted in which
any increase had at all taken place, because the
commissioners had nothing more to do.than to ascertain
the atnount of tithes agreed for or adjudicated to be paid,
and charging that to the owner of the parish, taking only
into account the adjustment term. He had endeavoured
as well as possible to inquire into some of those minute
cases of increase that had taken place. The Committee
were aware that a clause had been introduced in
the act giving to each Commissioner power where he
thought the amount tendered to him was considerably
lower than the amount that was due, and not exceeding
one-fitth of the amount of the composition. The Com-
missioners, he was happy to say had had recourse to that
power but in very few cases. It bad happened when the
landlord had been lay-impropriator, and where the
tithe bad been separated from the rent, that by
that operation a nominal rise had taken place in the amount
of tithes ; again, in some cases the amount of increase
not occurred upon the whole amount that was chargeable
upon the parish, but upon the amount chargeable
able upon individuals, and this had only been
productive of great clamour and dissatisfaction.
Severed instances recurred of persons who were afeid of
lending any countenance to vestries, that they should
resucirate tithes, which they bad supposed were buried.
Instances occurred where they would not allow persons to
attend vestries, and prevented the requisite number which
is ten, from attending. There were many individuals at
present in town for the purpose of explaining those cir-
cumstances, to which he (Mr. Littleton) alludes.
Regarding the subject of illegal combination,
some cases may have occurred When such de-
mands were made as were unjust ; but there are
some cases, such as in abbey lands, whose land, though
exempt from composition, still becomes chargeable
under some peculiarity of circumstances. In the
pariah of Arilguin such was the cass ; but there
always remained an appeal which was available to
the parties who thought proper to have recourse to it ;
and there were few instances where parties were
debarred from these advantages, that it did not arise
from their own neglect of all available means.—(Hear.)
An objection might be raised by the landholders of the
following kind—they might say " Why do you deprive sts
in 1840 of those advantages which are now se-
cased to us by the price of grain being the basis
of composition, which, in ISO, may possibly be
considerable lower ?"—(Heae, hear.) In the Bill he had
not introduced any clause in reference with that point,
but it might be worthy of consideration whether they
should not be allowed the advantages of the existing
scale of prices in regulation of the redemption.
' Sir R. PEEL asked the Right Hon. Gentleman who
would be made to pay the expenses of law proceedings and
others ?

Mr. LITTLETON said that the Bill stood at pre-
sent, the tithe owners would have to pay all expences.
He believed be had included every point of importance
in his statement, though he cotifese.l lie found great
of such magnitude, he could not sit down withouth im-
pressing upon the House that the Government were not
submitting any proposition for the appropriation of the
revenues of the church. The two questions were totally
41i,,tinet. it tv:s the bounden duty of Parliament to
realise this property, which belonged, if not to the
Church, most undoubtedly to the State.—(He a, bear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the
resolution :

" That it is the opinion of this Committee that the composi-
tion of tithes in Ireland ought to be abolished from and after
the Ist of November in the present year, in consideration of a
Land-tax to be annually granted to his Majesty, payable by the
persons who are, and have been, liableto such compositions, and
of the same amounts, such land-tax to be redeemable, and out
of the produce a provision to be made for the indemnity of the
persons liable to such compositions."
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the Right Hon. Gentleman
was not entitled to call upon the House to suspend
its opinion of the plan until he brought in his Bill. He
was disposed to congratulate the House that the Secre-
tary-at• War had not yet brought in the army estimates,
because, after the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
he might find it necessary to consider how far he should
increase the army, for that army roust certainly be in.
creased, and very considerably too, if this measure
was to be carried into effect. (Hear and laughter.)
Never was a more idle scheme or fallacious proposition.
The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to have a bad opinion
of the understanding of the Irish people—he might be ig-
norant,
nyrni
tlaabrtgyhei
renwe
ooßtfuhi
sad character,
betbtef
syilisram:bo:nreusa.rfiteteoGldyer.eoycnuHhtwildaeeanmsgbaatianonadygb
norant, and he (Mr. O'Connell) was sorry to say he be-
lieved he was ; but he ought not to think so lowly of the
readrtht:iedgn
gbftnhorabroamewtu egal teihridest:
a bundle of facts, no matter how applicable they were,
and
applicable:edr t aaintrilian they were ? He had brought,forward the
wtlirtaits;he'tt,h,aseobtcoto,