The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 11.
MISMANAGEMENT OF THE WOODS AND

FORESTS.
Lord DUNCAN rose to move the following resolu-
tion:—" Whereas it appears by returns laid before this
House, and before the Select Committee of Woods,
Forests, Works, &e., that during a period of seven years
(from 1842-3 to 1848-9), the gross income derived from

the po3sessions and land reveou'.s of the Crown has
te {?iiii
774,0001. has been paid into the public account at the
Exchequer; and whereas during the same period it ap-
pears that a sum amounting to 1,672,7851. has been
withheld for charges of collection and management, and
for other expenses charged upon the said revenues, it is
expedient, with a view to place the expenditure of this
branch of the public service under the more immediate
control of Parliament, that the gross income derived
from the said revenues should hereafter be paid into the
Exchequer, and that the necessary expenses for col-
lecting and managing the same should be voted by
this House, upon estimates to be annually sub-
mitted to Parliament by her Majesty's Government."
The Noble Lord observed that the object of the resolu-
tion was to- this effect, that the gross revenue derived
from the Woods and Forests should hereafter be paid
into the Exchequer, and that the necessary expenses
of collection and management should be voted by
the House on the estimates which were annually
submitted by her Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.)
He deeply regretted that it had fallen to his lot to bring
forward this motion, but as the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government had not shown any disposi-
tion to take the task in hand, and as he (Lord
Duncan) had acted as Chairman of a Committee on
the subject, and become acquainted with the many irre-
gularities which had taken place in the department of
the Woods and Forests, he thought he should be want-
ing in his public duty if he failed to bring the subject
thus prominently before the House. It would be recollected
that the Noble Lord brought in a Bill last session, but it
was postponed from week to week, and at the very end
of the session was consigned to the tomb of all the
Capulets, where so many good things had previously
been deposited.—(Hear.) At the commencement of the
present session he put a question to the Noble Lord on
the subject of the Bill, but having received an unsatis-
factory answer, he felt himself justified in endeavouring
to apply a remedy to the existing evils in this depart-
ment of the Government. Ho wished to make no
attack on the Noble Lord at the head of the department

(Lord Seymour), but to vindicate a great principle by
raising the question, whether it was to the advantage
of her Majesty's service that this department should
expend money without the control of Parliament?
The management of these revenues were entrusted to
three Commissioners responsible only to the treasurers;
and the only records of their proceedings were contained
in a report brought into the House at the end of
the session. This, he thought, was not the way to
manage that immense property. The gross amount of
the property which belonged to the Crown was, he firmly
believed, amply sufficient to maintain the Crown, in due
dignity and splendour.—(Hear, hear.) He found that
the gross rental in 1849-50 was 350,0001.; and the gross
expenditure, 192,000/. Considering, therefore, that it
required no less than 192,000/, to take charge of 350,0001,
he thought there was ample reason for his demanding
estimates on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) The revenues
of the Crown in the department of Woods and Forests
were derived from three sources. The land revenues
consisted of household property in London (in White-
hall, St. James's, Regent's-park, Regent-street, Tower,
&c.), of landed estates in different parts of the kingdom,
and and of feefarm rents, mines, manors, &c. The Rolls
Estate, and several other branches of revenue in England
and Wales, Scotland and Ireland, were also committed
by Parliament to the custody of the Commissioners. The
great national bailiff over all this property was his lion.
Friend the Secretary of the Treasury. Now, with all
due submission, he (Lord Duncan) maintained that, con-
sidering the demands upon his Hon. Friend's time, he
was not exactly the person to have such a large amount
of property placed entirely at his disposal. Of much
of the property, the Committee over which he (Lord
Duncan) had the honour to preside found that no
accurate rental was kept. It appeared that no rental
had been derived from the property situated in Wales,
Scotland, Ireland, and the Isle of Men; and the vis-
countial rents, estimated by one of the witnesses at
1,0001. a year, had been totally lost sight of since 1834,
and never collected. The rental had been lost, and was
only found, after a long search, in a drawer during the
sitting of the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) This fact
alone, he maintained, would justify him in bringing for-
ward his motion.—(Hear, hear.) The second branch of
the property committed to the management of the Com-
missioners was the Royal parks—St. James's, the Green-
park, Hyde-park, and various other parks in and near
the metropolis. The gross income from these, it ap-
peared, was 11,0261., and the gross expenditure 64,479/.
—(Hear, hear.) He understood his Noble Friend, a few
weeks ago, to promise that estimates should be furnished
in future with regard to this portion of the revenue; and,
if so, he thought that they would afford ample scope for
economy and retrenchment.—(Hear, hear.) The third
portion of the property under the management of the
Commissioners consisted of the royal forests,
15 in number ; the largest of which were—New
Forest, in Hampshire, 66,000 acres; and the Dean Fo-
rest, in Glocestershire, 20,000 acres; the whole forests
containing about 110,000 acres, which bad been esti-
mated by an eminent surveyor at upwards of 2,000,0001.
value. The income from this property was stated at
36,3931, and the expenditure at 36,784/., leaving a sur-
plus of expenditure over income on a property estimated
at upwards of 2,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) He saw
many gentlemen present who were well acquainted with
the value of land; and he asked them if it was not mon-
strous that a property of 110,000 acres, and which had
been valued at upwards of 2,000,000/., produced nothing
to the national Exchequer?—(Loud cries of " Hear.")
He cautioned the House from running away with the
idea that this waste property took nothing from the
public purse. He reminded them that the property
had been made over to their custody by the Sovereign on
her accession to the throne, in consideration of which
Parliament undertook to vote her Majesty a civil list of
380,000/, a year. If, then, this property was allowed to
remain unproductive, it was clearly a loss to the public,
for which the House was alone to blame. If the House
would allow him, he would now proceed to state how the
property originally came into the possession of the So-
vereigns of England. The Kings of England were for-
merly supported by the soil, and not by the system of
revenue organized in later times. The estates seized by
William the Conqueror, and which formerly belonged to
Edward the Confessor, were of vast extent, and formed
the ancient demesnes of the Crown, as distinguished
from those obtained by escheat, forfeiture, or feudal de-
linquency. The ancient demesnes it was held impious
to alienate. The Crown bad, in the feudal times, various
other modes of augmenting its estates, particularly from
forfeitures, and in time might have become possessed of
all the lands in the kingdom. But the Kings of England
bad ever exercised their right of disposing of the Crown
lands to needy favourites and courtiers, and such aliena-
tions necessarily made them resort to the Commons for
supplies. The Commons were in the habit, at the com-
mencement of every reign, and whenever they were asked
for a supply, to have recourse to resumptions of improvi-
dent grants, held to be granted only for the
life of the Sovereign. Accordingly, in almost every
reign, from William the Conqueror to that of
Henry the VIIIth, there were Acts of resumption
passed, preliminary to or accompanying votes
of supply. Up to the time of Henry VIII. the manage-
ment of these lands had been such as no one could com-
plain of. Large grants it was true bad been made, but
throughout the whole of the latter part of his reign large
accessions were made to the Crown property by the disso-
lution of the monasteries. A great portion of that property
was also granted to courtiers and the needy recipients of
court favour, and it therefore became greatly diminished.
In the time of Charles 1., a large portion of the
revenues derived from this property was applied
towards the support of his army, and afterwards
towards the payment of the Parliamentarian army
On the occasion of the restoration of Charles the Second
renewed grants were also made to those who had aided
in replacing him upon the throne. By an inquiry, how-
ever, which he had made he had ascertained that Charles
11. still retained a revenue of 36,000/. a year. On the ac-
cession of William 111. large grants were again made to
those who had been instrumental in promoting his ac-
cession to the throne. During the time of Queen Anne
no return was made for thirty-one years; and yet it
was but justice to say that while this property was
under the direction of the officers of the Crown there
was no waste of the property and no waste made by the
assistants, But when it came under the direction of
Parliament it was immediately used for party purposes,
and ho found that several grants were made, and in one
ia stance no less than 10,0001. had been made for one
purpose.- It was not until 1798 that Parliament entered
into any inquiry at all. After that Mr. Fordyce was
instituted as an inquirer; and Mr. Fordyce, he was
bound to say, had fulfilled his duty in a most admirable
manner. In 1810 a commission had been appointed
for the purpose of inquiring into the state of this
property; and in a most lamentable condition they
found it. The first witness called before the Com-
mittee over which ho (Lord Duncan) had the honour to
preside, was the Earl of Carlisle, at that time Presi-
dent of the Woods and Forests. The Committee soon
found, from his Lordship's evidence, that the accounts
of the office were kept in a most slovenly man-
ner.—(Hear, hear.) In consequence of the evidence
adduced, a communication had been made to Mr.
Anderson, from whom a letter had been received, and he
(Lord Duncan) thought that a more disgraceful letter
had never been read to the House of Commons—(Hear,
hear)—and he believed that he fully justified the
inquiry for which he now moved. From that
letter it appeared that no balance had been
made of the books later than the 31st of March in 1839,
so that there had been no balance whatever struck for
nine years; that no accounts whatever had been rendered
later than the 31st of March, 1843, so that there
had been no account at all for five years. Such a case
could not possibly occur in any other department, and
perfectly justified him (Lord Duncan) in asking for
this discussion.—(Hear, hear.) It should be recollected
that these forests had in the first place been appropriated
for the enjoyment of the Sovereign of the realm. For
the management of these forests three officers were ap-
pointed—one for the management of the revenues
derived from the domains, another for the nur-
ture and care of the deer, and a third for attending
to the growth of, and the profit derived from, the timber.
Now it did unfortunately happen that looking te ter deer
and the growing of timber was not a very pleasant oc-
cepation, and the consequence was that these duties were
dreadfully neglected. When he went down to the New
Forest a few months ago, he found matters in a state of
great confusion. The hewn timber did not agree with
the catalogues which had been sent up to the Commis-
sioners of Woods, and no wonder that on the frauds that
bud been perpetrated in the management of the forest
being discovered one of the managers ran away toFrance,
another cut his throat, and a third bolted from the
forest. It then transpired that the public had been
openly robbed, and timber sold at periodical sales by
parties who had no right whatever to it. Now, if
the plan he proposed bad been in operation
none of these abuses would have arisen. Again,
in the case of the Wichwood Forest, for a long series
App
of years the Woods and Forests had been at lawwith
ot4he
a
ranger, Lord Churchill, and during that period