The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-23 00:00:00

Oldham, rested upon falEe Fieciples. The whole mo-
tion rested on an error in principle, as well as in fact;
for the Hon. Memb ,r said ha would erect the great
fabric of national prosperity on the solid basis or na •
tional intellect. Now, he did not consider that as the
only solid basis. Men was e moral, an intellectual, and
a spiritual being, and they must educate all those
powers which it had pleased Heaven to bestow upon
him. All must be educate I, and one of them, and that
the most important of all, must not be neglected, as it
would he by a merely eecular education.—(llear, hear.)
He said that the exertions of the clergy of England
for the last ten years on this subject had been most CIT.'
ditable to them; and so for as instruction went, the only
question was whether they were not in their schools too
highly instructing the children for their after occupa-
tions in life. But then it was said that in the Irish uni-
versities a secular education alone was to be given; but
then those who msde such an objection ought to recol-
lect that these universities were intended for those whose
minds were already formed, but in the schools the minds
of children had to be formed. As to education in Ame-
rica, which had been referred to, he believed there was
a great diversity of opinion amongst the different states.
Religion was not, he believed, excluded from most of the
schools. And then as to crime disappearing with educa-'
tion, facts did not prove it to have done so. When edu-
cation in America was alluded to, he could not but point
to Louisiana, where the penalty of death was at one
time inflicted for teaching a black child to read or write.
He believed the penalty was not now so severe. As to
religion being taught by parents at home, be
pointed to the state of the manufacturing dis-
tricts to show that parents were not in a con-
dition to impart it, and that the clergy were
too few, in proportion to the population, to devote them-
selves to the task of teaching the children of the poor.
As to religion not being taught with the. multiplica-
tion table, he admitted that such might be the case, but
religion could well be mixed up with lessons in geogra-
phy and astronomy. And then as to history—let them
look to the difference between a Catholic history of the
reign of Queen Mary and a Protestant history of the
reign of Queen Elizabeth, A member of the Spanish
Cortes told him that he had been some time in England
before he found out his mistake in thinking that Queen
Mary was the most popular of British Sovereigns. Such
was the different manner in which history might be,
taught.—(Hesr.) He wished to see our national pros-
perity founded not only on intellectual advancement,
much as he prized it, but on that which was the only sure
basis—that of morality and religion.—(Cheers.)
Mr. COBDEN said any one who had listened to the
speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend would have
thought that the motion of the lion. Member for Oka-
ham was; not a proposition for Toting a larger sum ,of
money to supply a defect of education, the existence of
which all were ready to admit, but that he hal coo so
plan by which he proposed to withdraw the funds alreal ly
applied to the instruction of the people in religic n.
Oue would suppose that his Honourable Friend actual ly
intended to abolish the National Church, and with-
draw the 5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001. now considered to, be
the endowment of that Church, and that the moment, he
should succeed in carrying his motion all the preee nt
voluntary contributions of the Dissenting bodies wotild
instantly be withdrawn. t The Secretary of State for
Home Affairs admitted ttiat the present system hi id
proved a failure; but grounded his oppodtion to the
present motion upon the 'circumstance that some gel it le-
men had come from Manchester, and called on him, and
had communicated to him a new local system, which he
believed would succeed. If they wished to see whe tl ier
the present system had failed, they had only to loort to
the amount of money voted, which had remained for ;the
last few years at 125,0001., notwithstanding the haat, use
in the population. What, then, did the Government t fall
back upon? The local system of Manchester, whtich
had already failed, in the same way as the Governme eat
plan, from the religious difficulty. The gentlemen se; ao
came to town and waited upon the Right HOD. Barter et
had done him the honour also of a visit. They told Ld m
as they told the Right Hon. Baronet, that they had t I is
concurrence of all the religious sects, both Rom .sin
Catholics and Dissenters; but he had received a
letter from them, after their return to iii ea-
chester, in which they regretted to inform him that ne,
or, if he recollected aright, virtually the whole body • of
the Roman Catholic clergy had seceded from that pla a of
education; and why ? Simply because the commi etee
which met in Manchester made it a fundamental priuc iple
of their system that in all schools supported by pm tblic
rates in Manchester the authorised version of the Is Linle
should be read.—(Hear, hear.) How was it possibl, 'for
such a plan to succeed in such places as Mancoester and
Salford, where there were at least 100,000 Roman Cr ,tho-
lies, the poorest of the population, whom it would b. s the
most dangerous to leave in ignorance? They were i a the
same dilemma at Manchester as in that House; bt it he
maintained that the little education they did get we a got
surreptitiously by means of the Committee of the 3 ?rivy
Council, and not by a vote of that House; and a cheat
was, in point of fact, practised upon themselves an cl the
country.—(Hear, hear.) There was a fundamenta 1 eva-
sion and fallacy about the whole of the education vote.
When they talked so much of religious teaching i a this
country, be asked them whether they vote( I the
125,0001. for education or religious teaching? Beca use he
had always understood that it was not a vote fe r reli-
gious instruction. Could they vote it in the Hot iso for
religious teaching if they openly avowed it? No, it
could not be done; it had not been done for many y ears,
and never would be done again. The Hon. and le ferried
Solicitor-General had talked as if there were some
great conspiracy to deprive the country of its ref .4 dolls
faith, and institute schools for teaching infidelity. 1 Vhat
he maintained was, that provision was already rat iC Le for
religious training, on which twice as much was sr ,e nt as
in any other country in the world, and he chat tlenged
any one to controvert it. How, then, could it be said
that he sought to exclude religion from education: 1 They
had been taunted also with the use of the word s ecular;
but he knew not how otherwise to express the re tcessity
for supplying instruction in reading and writir tg, and
teaching men to know something of their own nature,
and training them in habits of thought. Ho nev, sr was
opposed to the Bible or any other religious book : being
read in schools, provided all were agreed upon t: ae sub!
ject ; but what he did oppose was the levying of r ates or
paying money out of a public fund, and then putting
veto on a portion of their fellow-citizens, because if their
children went to school, they would learn sometl dug to
which their parents could not consent. But he had no
desire practically to exclude the Bible. He sad no
hesitation in avowing that his system was the sys tern of
the Massachusets common schools. lie would not go
with the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General to l Louisi-
ana, or to Georgia, or South Carolina. Massa rhusets
was an old settled county, not a thinly peopled, fertile
district, but one from which there was a vast e migra-
tion to other countries, the population bei tag of
our own race, arid very much of our own habits. Why
not adopt the same plan in England ? They h. td
;u
now placed themselves in competition with the whole
v
world, and if a Manchester man saw some wor Iderful
piece of machinery from the United States in the great
receptacle of the productions of the world, he veou ld say,
what has been done at Boston may be done at Ma aches'
ter. It was said that the effect of this motion would
make them an irreligious people. He would meet them
on that ground. He had been to Massachuset 3, and
testing the religious feelings of its inhabitants L I the
nnmber of churches, the attendance of the peo plc on
religious worship, their support of religious teL tchers
and Sunday schools, their ouservanco of the Sat ibath,
or the respect paid by them to their religious tea eters,
he challenged them to compare England with A [Lissa'
chusets.—(lrenical cheers.) But was the reading of the
Bible prohibited ? He would venture to say that there
was probably not one out of a hundred schools there
where the Bible was not read.—(Hoar.) But his Hon.
Friend the Member fhr Oldham had no objection tto a
parish using the Bible if it chose, as well as any other
book. Why, then, could not England imitate Mare achu-
sets, which, in its earlier days, when the pilgrim 1: it?srrs
came from England, practised as much inv.& atance
as they left behind them? In ninety-nine out of a hun-
dred parishes in England he believed no one would
object to the reading of the Bible without note or com-
ment. He believed the people of Massachueets to be as
superior in intelligence to the people of Kent as th @ peo-
ple of Kent were to the people of Naples.—(lr ordeal
cheers.) Why could not this system be introduce, I into
England ? Was it because of the Established Chi arch ?
Surely an Established Church, with a very rich e adow-
ment, which supported clergymen for every I iarish,
must be supposed to afford the means of religious t ;duce-
tion gratis to the great mass of the people. It was urged
that the proposed plan would supersede the ex isting
school-rooms, but there was no reason why they s ,hould
not be made available for carrying that plan into e eteau-
tion. Education was greatly needed in the agrict tltural
districts, and though he did not for a moment w 'ish to
faeten on the clergy of the Established Church t he re-
sponsibility of the prevailing ignorance, still the 3 r were
interested in the promotion of secular education, for he
could hardly understand how one could be a Prot ;extant
without kno wing how to read. Ho knew many dish icts in
which the clergymen of the Established Church h ad un-
dertaken more than anybody else in the cause of educa-
tion, and he knew the difficulties with which th, sy had
to contend in obtaining the necessary support ii d some
rural perishes where three-fourths of the laud was owned
by absentee% lie believed it would be found th at the
majority of the acres in the rural parishes were, on an
average, owned by absentee proprietors. lie wat ited to
see
plan established by which, for the purposes of se-
cular education, the parish should be able to ri ito the
tphreo property.—(Hear, ea rmt ye sum laid out in any other way.
.(lie u
a
—r, hear.) 801. or 1001. so laid oat would
do more to save
pariell from poor-rates and crim .e than
n
no-
thing more to say than to express his great gretabib; itdedoa
toll
at the altered tone whiohmthaerdiscussion of this (it iestion
assumed,n washineoph tie Belt withlast soar.
hadwas nooow s
ehj
eet
o and he was thankful to all who attemptedso
to
o assistas o
aTin
in the
cause of education—to whatever religion or part they
might belong—because he saw the difficulties
of taking any combined step, ()wine to tho in ti way
those
r
elements which had always hitherto thwarted the, irgteonus
en-
deavours; end perhaps there never was a time when
more was to be feared from that cause than the p resent.
He still hoped, however, that they would still be
,ble to
meet on this neutral ground, out of the polo of re ligious
strife and interests, for by no other means wog ad the
poor of this country ever be educated.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. 11. INGLIS ackeowledged with satistacti on the
moderation of the Hon. Member's tone; and powe dial as
he unhappily had been in the country, he hoped tb, Lion.
Member would excuse him for saying that he wis` ted he
had never been more powerful than in the arguae rat he
had used that evening. He rose to support the po tepee&
tion of the Hon. Member for Oldham, but ins t std of
supporting him he had in fact proposed that th a 13 ible
should be read.—(Hear, hear.) He added that he, lei sew
his Hon. Friend the Member for Oldham was re at the
Member to object to that, and touched bins affectiot eet ely
on the shr:ulder in expectation of assent. Was that' as-
sent given? No; the lion. Member for Oldham loall ed
as immoveable as at that moment.—(Laughter.) 1 le
knew that the Hon. Member for the West Ridit 3g

THE SUN,