The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-15 00:00:00

gentlemen who were desirous of lesF•ening the rigour of
the measure. It was particularly gratifying to him, that
during the discussion of this measure, Cu many Hon.
M tnbers, both from Ireland and England, had expressed
themselves favourable to the introduction of poor laws
into Ireland. He felt convinced that if a mod fied
system of vor limos was adopted fir Ireland, they would
greatly rend to allay the excitement which existed, and
cheek the misery which prevails in that country.
Mr. C. BERKELEY presented a petition from the
town of Cheltenham, for the repeal of the house and

window tax.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from Sal-
ford, against the Irish Disturbances Bill.
Mr. FINN pr• sented a peiitinn from Cavan against
corporation abuse•i, and another from the Union, Kilma-
co w, against the Irish Coercive Bill.
Lord EBRINGTON presented a petition from the
parish of Culinst,,ck, in the county of Devon, for the
abolition of slavery ; another from Crediton, in the same
county, against corporation abuses ; and another from the
Surveyors of Highways at Ilfracombe, praying that certain
powers might he conferred upon Magistrates in Petty
Sessions with regard to highways.
Mr. DIVETT presented petitions from Topsham,
Otterley, acd Ex !Louth, against certain duties levied at
the Port of Exeter, under the pretence of maintaining the
lortifications.—Referred to the Committee on Corpo-

rati,ing,

Mr. JOHN SMITH presented a petition from Stoney
Stratford, or the abolition of negro slavery.
Mr. SHELL presented petitions against the Irish Coer-
cive Bill, from Bradford, Tipperary, Knockaballagh,
L.tting, South Shields, Tuomavaragh, Kinkillen, Bal-
linahogur, Carrick on- Suir, Cahir, Eglish, Borrisocleigh,
Droghedl, Temple Henry, Templemore, Whitecliurch,
Tuam, Lochlin, Nina, Holycross, and Ballicann, Power-

town.
Mr. DUNLOP presented a petition from Port Glas-
gow fur a reduction of the duty on soap; from the elders
of the Scottish Church for the better observance of the
Sabbath ; from Dunbarton, Renfrew, and Kilmarnham,
to the same effect; from the Magistrates in Port Glasgow
fit an alteration in the revenues of the Church ; from
Kilmarnock, fur the removal of all restrictions on trade ;
and from the same place for the abolition of sinecures and
uninerite,l piinsions.
Colonel BAILLIE presented petitions from Forfar, and

from the Presbytery of Inverness, for the better observ-
ance o► the Sabbath; from Nairne, for the abolition ci•
'Livery ; and from Forres, for the total or partial repea
of the duty on soap.
Mr. PEASE presented a petition from Mill-street Chapel
Perth, for the abolition of slavery, and protection to the
property of Dissenting ministers; from the inhabitants of
South Shields, for the abolition of sinecures ; and to the
same effect from Stockton-on-Tees. Another from the
parish of St. Helens. Auckland, in the county of Dur-
ham, expressive of their jealousy of the proceedings of
Ministers to arm themselves with a power beyond the
law ; and from Thomas Heale, of Worcester, relating to
the observance of the Sabbath.
Mr. INGHAM gave his cordial support to the petition
from South Shields, for the abolition of useless pensions
end sinecures.
BANK RESTRICTION ACT.
Mr. SHEIL requested to know from the Hon. Member
for South Durham, whether it was his intention to per.
severe in bringing forward the motion of which he had
given notice, relating to a Committee on a Bank Restric-
tion Act for Ireland ? At such a moment as this, a notice
of this kind was of the most important, and might be of
the most injurious, consequence.
Mr. PEASE said, that when he gave the notice re-
ferred to, he endeavoured to word it in an as inoffensive
and modest way as possible ; but he had since more atten-
tively considered the subject, and was of opinion that it
was at least premature. He should, therefore, withdraw
it, though he did not reeret having put it on the books.
Lord MAHON presented a petition in favour of the
Ten Hours' Factory Bill.
Sir G. SKIPWITH presented a petition from Harboro'
Magna, and several other places in Warwickshire, for the
better observance of the Sabbath ; and also a petition from
the palish o Kenilworth, in favour of a general reduction
of taxation, and of a mitigation of the sentences against
those men who were now confined for a violation of the
stamp laws.
Mr. B. CLIVE presented a petition from the city of
Hereford, for the repeal of the assessed taxes, arid of ihe
house and window tax duties ; also a petition from Mr.
James, of that city, for the alteration of the fiftieth clause
of the Reform Act.
Sir ANDREW AGNEW presented a number of pe-
titiens respecting the br tter observance of the Sabbath.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON presented some petitions from
Kirkcudbright, to the same effect.
Lord A. LENNOX presented a petition from Chiches•
ter, and other places, for the better observance of the
Sabbath.
Petitions to the same effect were presented by Mr. W.
CHAYTOR from Sunderland ; and by Mr. LA/tiONT, from
Wells; the latter was supported by Mr. Lee, who said it
was nioit respectattly signed.
Adjourned at halt-past twelve.

HOUSE OP LORDS. Illiscn 14.
Tho Marqu s of WESTMINSTER presented a peti•
to.' from Chepstow, playing fur the better observance cY

the Sdbit
Lord CAWDOR presented a petition from a parish in
Carlow to the -acne • ffect.
Earl GREY presented a petition to the same effect.
Lord 60SFORD presented a petition from Mips
street Chapel, Perth, praying for the immediate abolition
of slavery.
Lord PLUNKET said that he should postpone laying
upon the table of the House the Irish Jury Bill, which he
had given notice of tor Friday (to-morrow), till Thursday
next.
The Earl of RODEN presented n petition from a con-
gregation of Protes'ant Dissenters in Holborn, praying
lor the better observance of the Saboatti. Also a petition
to the s .me effect trom the pat ish 01 Gower, in Caithness.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved for a copy of the
report upon general education, made by a Committee of
the House of CoMIII,,FiS, ap °inter! in 1820. Several years
ago, when a Metro er of the House of Commons, he had
brought in a Bill, having for its object the better
general education of the poorer classes in this country, but
which, aster having gone through several stages, was aban-
doned, principally upon the cround of daily anti Sunday
schools annually increasing. There were altogether
throughout England 14,000 schools, educating about
600,000 children, principally supported by voluntary con-
tributions. He had stated the reasons, and the only.piev,why
his Bills in 1920 were withdrawn. In 1829 a new era
dawned on the question, not on y of education, but on
the Dissenters, in that year the Bill being passed which
pl iced Dissenters on the manse footing as Churchmen. As
eight years had then elapsed, some test of the different
opinions held upon the sul.ject in 1820, might then be
formed ; it was easy to discover whether by making
the payments for a national education compul-
sory, they were likely to dry up the fountains which
had so liberally flowed in a voluntary manner. Since
that time he had made inquiries of a great number of
clergymen as to the state of education and the number
of schools that existed in those parishes. To those cir-
culars lie had received upwards of 500 answers, and the
result was, that where, in 1818, the number of schol tr.
in endowed d iy schools amounted to 50,000, the number,
in 1828, had increased to 105 000.—(Hear.) These
returns were from parishes in various parts of the
country, taken at random, and if an average was taken
from them as to the whole country it would give a very
satisfactory conclusion ; the numbers would then stand
thus :—ln 1818, while the unendowed schools amounted to
11,000, educating nearly half a million of people, in 1829
they had increased t • 33,000 schools, educating one mil-
lion and thirty thousand. That being the case, he was
led to pause in his plan in 1828, not because his opinions
had changed, hut on account of the other risk mentioned
io 1820, viz., that this great fund gathered from voluntary
contribution was of a fleeting nature, and might by a
compulsory rate be altogether blown away, therefore it
behoved them to be most careful not to extinguish 50
great a fund as gave education to nearly a million and a
halt of people. Though education was still defective, vet
it was not in the same way nor to the same extent that it
was in 1820. There were still 1,500 parishes in which there
were no schools, either endowed or unendowed, yet those
parishes were exceedingly small both in size and population;
in fact, they would be found to be parishes where there
were not above 30 or 40 families. The other instance
where there was a defect, was one which could not b- too
much known, nor too soon tiken into consideration. He
alluded to the state of education in our great towns, espe-
cially in the capital and great ruanulactuting towns, he
believed there was not in any part of Europe leaver means
of education than were to :r met with in those places; in
fact, so much was it wanted in them, that Noble Lords
and persons who had not turned their attentian to the
matter had no idea of the great want that was there felt.
1 here were many people who stated that, notwithstanding
the increase of education that had been afforded to the
people, crime was still on the increase. He would say, it
could not be expected that the education of a few years
should be able materially to teduce the amount of crime or
the size of their calendars. Besides, it ought to be borne in
mind that there had been many alterations in the laws

which naturally would lead to an increase in the number
of offences that came before the public. Some alterations
had been introduced, reducing the amount of punishment
eri certain crimes whereby people were induced to come
forward and prosecute, who formerly allowed the criminals
to escape. Other alterations had been made by which
prosecutors were allowed a greater amount of money as
expenses, which had led to an increase of prosecutions.
He would state it as a broad fact, that the better people
were instructed, the less would be the amount of crime in
any country. It was notorious, that in any part of
Europe where education had been increasine, crime, espe-
cially that connected with violence, had been on the de-
crease. To take an example in the least educated parts of
Europe,—he would mention Russia and Spain, where the
crimes had amounted to 5,800, 3,500 of which were
connected with violence, being lull three-fifths of the
whole number. He would compare this with a state where
education had been much cultivated,—he meant the state
of Pennsylvania, where the offences amounted to '7,100,
only 610 of which were connected with any violence
whatever, being not more than one-twelfth of the whole
num, er. He believed the same result would he found by
comparing the northern with the southern parts of France;
and Noble Lords were aware that the same causes also
prevailed elsewhere. He instanced the case of a gaol where
400 prisoners were confined. He found, that 200 of
those did not know even their alphabet, while 50 of
the remaining 200 merely knew it, and nothing more.
Tee proportion in France of criminals who could read
and write, compared with those who could write, appeared
to be much the same as in England. In short, he had no
hesitation in saying, that by educating the people,
provided that their education were conducted on
a rational principle, they stood the best chance of
promoting their happiness and welfare. He trusted
their Lordships would excuse him for having made
this short statement, which he had done, fearing that it
mightbe supposed he had dropped the plans he formerly
adopted, and that it was not considered the better duty
of the Government and the Legislature to afford as-
sistance in educating the people. He had no doubt
they would find the means within their reach for applying
the remedy for the evils he had detailed where it was most
wanted, and that safely. By safely, he meant so as not to
interfere with the great mass of education which was at
present conducted by means of voluntary expenditure, but
which would at the same time provide a specific
remedy, especially :awing 'he population of large cities.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH regretted that the Noble
and Learned Lord had not given notice that it was his
intention, in moving for these papers, to make the
observations on the important subjects he had dune, as it
must have been more satieliceory to the House to have
discussed them in the manner they deserved, than to pass
them over, as they most now do. From what the Noble
and Learned Lord had said, he (Lord Ellenborough) ga-
thered that it must be a subject of great satisfaction to
him that the suggestions he had made 10 years ago were
not adopted—(A laugh)—and that Parliament, by not
accomplishing a vote for the general educatioa of
the people, had not iuterfered with the voluntary appli-
cation of the very large funds now appropriated
for that purpose, not only because it appeared that
by the statement of the Noble and Learned Lord,
those funds had greatly increased doting the last 10
years, but because of another objection in point of prin-
ciple which, he trusted, would always weigh with Perlits-
ment, ou any similar application being made. He recol-
lected hearing it said by an eloquent and able gentleman
(Mr. Wilberforce), with respect to the poor laws, that
they had destroyed charity en the one band, and gra-
titude on the other.—(Cries of " Hear, hear, bear.")
He believed this principle to be as true in that of the poor
laws. Let but the House go further in that legislation—
let them but take from individuals the means of conciliat-
ing the poorer classes, and attaching them to the higher
classes, and it was impossible to foretell what evil conse-
quences, besides the destruction of charity, might ensue.—
(Hear, hear.) They had dune much mischief already,
but lie trusted they would no longer proceed in that
course. It would be with great reluctance that he should
adopt any proposition for the purpose of assisting educa-
tion in the great towns. He had not expected such a
statement as the Noble Lord had made of the low ebb at
which education stood in those towns, from the authority
of the Noble and Learned Lord. It was not very long
since that Noble and Learned Lord had displayed before
them the great intelligence of those towns, and had called
upon the House to bestow upon them, as well as upon the
amount of the agricultural labourers, great additional
legislative porvers.--(Hear, hear.) If the people were
so uneducated in the great towns, as the Noble and Learned
Lord would lead them to believe, it was their own
faults. The class of persons commonly called opera-
tives, for the most part, received more wages in the great
towns than the agricultural population. Now, he looked
to the natural feeling of parents towards their children, for
giving them the education, by which their welfare in the
world was to be promoted. He looked also to the charity
ut the great capitalists, whose duty it was to look to the
education of those by whose labour their wealth was ac-
cumulated. The community bad a right to expect that
great capitalists should devote a portion of their profits to
the education of their wotkpeople in the same way as
the lindowners contr timed to the education of their agri
cuhural Immure rs.—(tlear.) The Noble and Learned
Lord had touched upon another subject of great import-
mice, the relative progress education bears to crime. He
knew not that he could agree with the Neoile and Learned
Lord upon that point, for when he looked to Ireland he
found no country where the people, as far as reading and
writing were concerned, were more educated,—no country
where education w,s more valued, and where even the
poorer classes more carefully saved their rents to procure
its benefits for their children, and yet he found no country
in Europe where crime was so prevalent.
A NOBLE Loan, invisible from the failure of light, and
in audible from the want of voice, mode a few observations
wluch were net Keay' in the gallery.
Lord BROUGHAM said that the Bill of 1820 was in-
tended to instruct t e people, to be paid for, not out of
the poor rates, but by those who received instruction.
There were many parts of London and Westminster mote
destitute of the m sus o, education than any other parts of
the country. The 101. householders in England were
for the most par, as well educated as the Noble Baron
near him (Lord Ellenborough).—Motion agreed to.
LAW IMPROVEMENT BILL.
On the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, the
above-named Bill, founded on the recommendation of the
Common Law Commissioners, introduced last week by
the Noble and Learned Lord, was read a second time, am
Friday se'noight named for the Committee.
The private Bills on the table were respectively advance
a stage.
Adjourned at a quarter-past six.

IRISH DISTURBANCES BILL.