The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-03 00:00:00

" That in the case of mortgages, bonds, and securities
of every description, i f the amount of the mortgage, for
instance, be twenty-five pounds, the amount of the stamp
is one pound, or eighty shillings per cent; but if the
amount of the mortgage be twenty thousand pounds, the
amount of the stamp is twenty pounds, or two shillings per
cent. ; that, in this case, the poor man pays forty times as
much as the rich man; and that the stamp is no more if
the amount of the mortgage be one hundred thousand
pounds; so that, in a case like this, the poor man pays
two hundred times as much tax as the rich man : and
that, in this case also, the tax goes on increasing in weight
as the taxed person becomes poor.
" That in the case of annuities, if the annuity be for
ten pounds, or under, the amount of the stamp is one
pound ; and that, in due proportion, an annuity of two
thousand pounds ought to pay a stamp duty of two
hundred pound ; but instead of that, it pays a stamp duty
of only twenty-five pounds ; and if the annuity be for ten
thousand pounds, or any greater amount, it still pays a
stamp duty of only twenty-five pounds ; so that here the
poor mas pays forty or fifty times as much tax as the
rich man ; and that, in this case also, the tax goes on
getting heavier and heavier as the parties become more
and more poor.
" That, in the case of promissory notes and bills of ex-
change, not exceeding two months after date, if the sum
be forty shillings and not exceeding five pounds five shil-
lings, the stamp is one shilling; and, in the same propor-
tion, the stamp on three thousand pounds ought to be
twenty-eight pounds eleven shillings ; but that, it pays
only fifteen shillings ; and that for any higher rune the
stamp is no more than one pound five shillings, instead of
being, on ten thousand pounds, ninety-five pounds four
shillings; and that, therefore, in the former case, while
the poor man pays nearly one pound per cent., the rich
man pays sixpence per cent. ; and in the latter case,
while the poor man pays nearly one pound per cent., the
rich man pays threepence per cent. ; and that, therefore,
in the first case, the poor man pays forty times as much as
the rich man, and, in the latter case, nearly eighty times
as much as the rich man ; and here, as in all the former
cases, the tax becomes heavier and heavier, as the tax-
payer becomes poorer and poorer ; and that, in bills of a
longer date than two months, the partiality is still greater,
and weighs still more heavily on the needy man.
" That, i❑ the case of insurance of lives, where the
sum insured amounts to less than five hundred pounds, the
stamp is one pound ; that, if it amount to five hundred
pounds, the stamp is two pounds: that, if it amount to
five thousand pounds, or upwards, the stamp is five
pounds ; so that the man who insures ten thousand pounds
pays one shilling per cent. ; while he who insures for less
than five hundred pounds, and suppose that to be three
hundred pounds, pays six shillings and eight pence per
cent. ; and thus the man of scanty means pays nearly
seven times as much as the man of wealth.

" That, in the case of receipts, if the sum be two
pounds, the stamp is twopence; if the ,um be a thou-
sand pounds, the stamp is ten shialings, when, in due
proportion, it ought to be four pounds three shillings and
four-pence, that thus the poor man pays more than eight
times as much tax as the rich man ; and if the sum go
on increasing to a hundred thousand, or a million pounds,
still the stamp is only ten shillings; and that for any sum
expressed to be in full of all demands, whether it be for
two pounds or a million, the stamp is always ten shil-
lings ; so that in this case it may be fairly said that the
poor man pays a thousand times as much as the rich.
" That, iu the case of appraisements not exceeding the
value of fifty pounds in the value of the thing appraised,
the stamp is two-and-sixpence; that, if the thing appraised
exceeds five hundred pounds in value, though it amount
to :a million of money or more, the stamp is but one
pound; so that here the tax falls almost wholly on per-
sons in the middle rank of life, and the estates of the
nobility and landed gentry are all nearly exempt : that an
estate of the value of a hundred thousand pounds ought to
pay an appraisement stamp of two hundred and fifty pounds,
instead of the one pound which it now pays ; so that here
the people in the middle rank of life pay, in many cases,
two hundred and fifty times as much as the rich.
" That, by the aforesaid act of the 55th George the
Third, the duty on deeds as expressed by the Act, limits
its operation to deeds containing no more than 2,160
words ; and the Act provides, that for every I,OSO words
beyond that number, there shall be a further duty of one
pound; and no difference is made as to this further duty,
be the amount of the thing conveyed what it may; so
that, in this respect, an estate of the value of an hundred
Founds pays as much duty as the estate of the value of a
million of money; and that it frequently happens that
the deed conveying the small estate requires a gl eater num-
ber of words than the deed conveying the large estate.
" That with regard to apprenticeships, the parents of
a poor boy who give no premium at all with him, have
two pounds to pay for the indentures and the cc uaterpar t;
that in this case, however, where nobody but tradesmen
are concerned, the stamp goes on gradually and fairly
from thirty !pounds to a thousand pounds, a premium
under thirty pounds paying one pound stamp and a thou-
sand pounds paying sixty pounds stamp ; because, in this
cate, the nobility, clergy, and landed gentry are not con-
cerned; and here we may observe, that while the poor
boy's parents are thus taxed, the settlements made by the
rich, pay only a twenty-five-shilling stamp on a thousand
pounds.
" That, according to the aforesaid Act, every transfe
assignment, disposition. assignation, or re-conveyance rf
any mortgage or wadset, had a duty imposed upon it, on
a certain ad valorem scale ; so that the transfer, disposi-
tion, or assignation, &e., paid the same ad valorem duty
as was imposed on the original mortgage or wadset ; but
that, by the last of the aforementioned Acts, viz., chapter
117 of the 3d of Geo. IV., an alteration was made in
this respect; and in such wise as to make the duty in all
cases whatsoever the same sum, namely, one pound fif-
teen shillings; so that tilts, stamp on the transfer of a
mortgage of two hundred thousand povnds, or a million
of money, has, since the yeur last mentioned, been the
same as on the transfer of a mortgage of no more than
two hundred pounds ; thus compelling the tradesman, or
other small proprietor, to pay just the same amount of duty
on the transfer of his.. small mortgage, as is paid by the
Peer upon the transfer of a mortgage to the amount of
hundreds of thousands of pounds.
" That there is a total exemption from this stamp-tax
for all bonds, contracts, mortgages, conveyances, deeds,
and instruments for making provisions for building, re-
pairing, or purchasing houses, and other buildings, for the
beneficed clergy on their benefices.
"That by several Acts of Parliament, ending with 55
Geo. HI., chapter 142, which Act imposes duties on
things sold by auction, a dory of sevenpence in the pound
is imposed, in Great Britain, on the amount of the
sale of any interest in possession or reversion in any
copyhold, or leasehold lands, tene-
infreeenhtus,ld,h
ocuusset,o,n) customary,
hereditaments, and on any share
or sharea in the capital or joint stock of any
corpo:ation or chartered company, and of any an.
ratifies or sums of money charged thereon, and of any
ships and vessels, and of any reversionary ireerest in the
public funds, or of any plate or jewels ; but that on all
sales of fufniture, fixtures, pictures, books, horses, and
carriages, end all other goods and chattels whatever,
there is a duty of one shilling in the pound ; while on
wool, sold for the benefit of the landowner or his tenant,
or the first purchasers, the duty is only twopence in
the pound ; and that from this duty all sales of goods
distrained for rent or tithes, and all sales of leases of
lands for tenements, and all sales of woods, coppices,
cattle, live or dead stock, and all unmanufactured pro-
duce of land, and of all produce of mines, when the sales
are made on the lands or at the mines, are wholly ex-
empted, as well as all the produce of quarries, or of imple-
ments used in quarries, mines, or farms ; and that thus,
while every product of the hand of man has to bear this
tax in almost a double degree, compared with lands and
tenements themselves, the produce of the land bears no
part of this tax, which is thus shifted from the shoulders
of the great and the rich, and made to fall almost exclu-
sively on the middle and working classes of society.
" That this House will, with as little delay as possible,
make such an alteration in the several Acts, imposing
duties on stamps and on sales at auction, as shall cause
the Peers, Nobles, Baronets, and other great landowners,
to pay, in proportion to the amount of their property
(subject to those duties), as great an amount in those
duties 41 is paid by the landholders, annuitants, trades-

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.b.r.,.....(...r, hear)—and that ha thauhl p on in the
e orld equally protected and equally regarded with the
t
rich one. He was convinced there would be incessant
W,
. ri petitions of Insurrection Acts and Coercive Bills, till a
se
due provision was made for those who would work, and
a
_
• 7"\e could
inotbc incompetent
andtte;ntto
further
fortho se who,
labour. T
from ageba orrehad been
infirmity,ee
were
several attempts to stave off the question of poor laws,
more especially by Mr. Wilmot Horton, who planned a
grand scheme of emigration, which certainly took fora
time. Since that belled himself emigrated—(A laugh).—
and the Government had given the plan up—wisely, and
in his opinion, as the only proper plan of emigration was
diet which was effected by the parties themselves, their
frb-ntle or landlords. He trusted in God a reformed
' Parliament would show itself the friend of tte poor man,
and by making some provision for him, give Min a stake
in the welfare of his country; if they did not, then, in
his opinion, all hope for Ireland was at an end.
Lord ALTHORP_I agree, Sir, with the Hon. Gen-
tleman who has proposed the motion, that this is a sub-
ject of the greatest possible importance; and I think, also,
that it requires the greatest consideration to be bestowed
upon it before we adopt it. I must say, too, that consi-
dering the evils which we know to exist in the poor
law system of this country, it would have been more ad•
viable for the Hon. Member not to move a direct resolu-
tion, declaring that poor laws should be adopted in Ire-
land, without explaining at the same time those improve-
ments in our system which be expects may be adopted to
remedy those evils that all of us know to exist. There is
one part of the speech of the Hon. Member which I hope
will not have much weight with this House. I hope that
this House will consider the question of the poor laws
with reference to the benefit to be conferred upon Ireland,
and upon Ireland alone, by their introduction ; and that
the argument which he has used to show that the introduc-
tion of poor laws into Ireland would be beneficial to Eng-
land, by preventing the annual influx of Irish la-
bourers into this country; and that the appeal
which he afterwards made on the same topic to English
Members--I say I hope that this argument and this appeal
will not have much effect.--(Hear, hear.) Nothing can
be more unfit, nothing can be snore unworthy of English
Members, than that they should vote for a measure for Ire-
land, not because it would be beneficial to Ireland, but be-
cause it would be beneficial to England.--(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman has made a most extraordinary state-
ment on this subject, and I should wish to caution the
House against supposing, that because great distress exists
in Ireland, it therefore follows, as a matter of course, that
the introduction of poor laws there would remedy that
distress, and prove of the highest advantage to Ireland.
The Hon. Member says that the effect of the poor laws
in this country has been most beneficial; that they have
separated virtue from dissoluteness, and industry from idle-
ness. lam sorry to say that the experience we have had
of the poor laws in England has rather shown the reverse
to be the fact. I admit that this has not been the neces-
sary consequence of the poor laws themselves. lam in-
clined to believe that a great deal of the fault has depended
on the administration of them.—(Hear, hear.) As they
are at present administered, the effect of them certainly is
to take away all inducement to industry, and to place the
in,lustrious on the same footing as the idle. The Hon.
Member who seconded the motion has said that he should
join the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and should
be in favour of a repeal of the Union, unless the poor
laws were introduced into Ireland. I shall only observe
upon this, that if they join in their object, they certainly
will not agree in their reasons—(A laugh)—for the Ho-
nourable and Learned Member does not pretend to put
that forward as one of the grounds on which he has
raised the question of the repeal.—(Hear, hear.) The
object that I have in addressing the House thus early, is to
es quest that they will not rush hand over head into the
adoption of this measure ; that they will not declare poor
laws expedient for Ireland, without first making due in-
quiry—without ascertaining what will be the effect of
poor laws there—what will be the means of preventing
abuses in them, and, above all, whether there are not, at
this moment, institutioes possessed of funds to a conside-
rable moment, which, by law, are applicable to the relief
of the poor.—(Hear.) All these points eughtto be inquired
into before we adopt the resolution of the Hon. Member.
It is desirable, too, that we should inquire into the state of
the poorer classes in Ireland—how far the poorer classes of
people are differently situated in the two countries--and
to ascertain whether the effect of such difference is to the
disadvantage of the poorer classes in Ireland ; and if so,
whether those disadvantages might be removed from any
system of poor laws that we should think proper to in-
troduce into Ireland. Although lam not prepared to say
that poor laws ought not to be introduced into Ireland, I
do feel considerable doubt and hesitation as to the ques-
tion whether the introduction of such a measure would be
beneficial or not. The effect of the system here-appears to
have been to lead the labouring classes to trust to the
poor laws for their ultimate support, and not to exert
sufficient industry or providence to maintain them-
selves. If lam right in the idea which I have formed
of what the lower classes of the population of Ireland
are, I do not think that they would be less likely to
trust to the support to be afforded to them by the poor
laws than the population of England.—(Hear, hear.) On
the contrary, I believe they would be more likely to do
so—(Hear)—and that the effect of the introduction of the
poor laws into Ireland would be to induce the poorer
classes in that country to be even less provident than they
are said to be at present. Indeed I think that they would
conceive a sort of imputation on their discernment and
skill, if they did not contrive, by some means or other,
to get frequent assistance from theta.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) There are two or three modes by which we
might proceed in making the inquiries I propose to insti-
tute. We might appoint a Committee of this House f r
the purpose of inquiry, but there are many and great i b-
jectono to such a Committee. One effect of it would be,
to bring evidence from Ireland at a considerable expense,
and, after all, it might possibly be said that that evidence
had been brought, because it was in accordance with the
particular opinions of the gentlemen whe had sent for it.
The Hon. Gentleman has expressed himself dissatisfied
with the inquiry instituted in the year ISSO, and other
persons might in like manner be dissatisfied with an
inquiry of the same kind now, and we should not attain
the end which we all desire. I think, therefore, and the
Government, taking all the circumstance, into considera-
tion, are of opinion, that the inquiry should take place in
Ireland itself--(Hear, bear, hear).`-and for that purpose
I intend to move, as an amendment, that an address
be presented to the Crown, praying that a Commission
may to appointed.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In wording that
motion—having stated, as I have, my own doubts upon
the subject, and my wish that the House should remain
unpledged till full information is laid before them—l shall
endeavour to word it in such a manner as not to point the
inquiry directly upon that object. The amendment I shall
move is this—" That an bumble address be presented to
his Majesty, praying that he will be graciously pleased to
direct a Commission to issue, to inquire into the condition
of the poorer classes in Ireland, and into the various insti-
tutions at present established by law in that country for
their relief." I should call upon them to report their
opinion as to what is expedient to be done. All that I
should require from them is, that they should lay the case
fairly before this House—that they should state what is
the condition of the population in Ireland what are the
means for their relief, and that we, by seeing that case
brought fairly before us, may be able, on the one hand, to
inquire what alteration may be made in our own poor
laws, and to determine what poer laws should be intr,.,.
'lured into Ireland, and, on the other hand, if we
should come to the conclusion that no poor laws should
be introduced there, that we should have the means of
deciding that question with a degree of authority ; and of
.bowing, that it is not from a want of humanity—not
from a want of sympathy with the Irish people—that we
so decide it, but because, looking at their best interest.,
we have felt compelled to to act.—(Hear, hear, bear.)
This is the proposition which I have to make; I hope it
will be sufficient to satisfy the Hun. Member, and that he
will not wish to press the House to adopt a positive reso-
lution, but will be content to wait until we can get the
information which I propose to procure by the means of
this Commission.—(Hear, hear.)
M. O'CONNELL wished to be permitted to second,
the amendment of the Noble Lord. No man hlld A
stronger personal interest in supporting poor laws thee he
had. By recommending them, he should obtain the
affectionate confidence of a class of men whom he esteemed
most highly—he should get a great deal of approbation
from the Catholic clergy of Ireland, who were strongly
disposed in favour of the poor lam, coming in contact,
as they did, with a mass of misery, and being naturally
anxious to find some tangible relief for that misery. If
lie could bring his mind to think that the poor laws would
ee advisable, and if lie were to state that to be his
opinion, there would soon be a cry for them in Ireland
that would be irresistible. If he were disposed to agitate
c epnoottowlrl
Ireland, for purposes that would lead to the shaking iof
the foundations of society, and that would tend to re:o u-
.,tinoreisannbdj e
eto t
morethe
likely insecurityto influenceo property,f
the
ect
subject
did ild.
oni:utoethrie
mbiends of
of the
par-
t , e
awe.la r l y
He
ef
could,
uneducated,d., mostby meansrk
of
reckless
thislao tfb i :
subject,
life when in pursuit
-ilf"oeb'wecbo
ts that they thought would be beneficial to
hem, objects
he was thoroughly convinced that he could
.01 do so without a sacrifice of principle, and he roust
•eek his private advantage by a yivletin Qf whet he