The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-25 00:00:00

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early inaudible. e did not think he would be justified in
_posing the n proposed unless he was prepared with a
substitute for it.
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A supported the clause. It
would be impossible to establish one uniform system through-
out the country without the establishment of a Commission of
this kind. He could not see anything like arbitrary in the
authority with which it was proposed to vest them. They
had no power to raise more than 50/. in any one year for the
purpose of repairing or enlarging workhouses. The country
was greatly indebted to Government for the circulation of the
Report. He believed there was hardly a Magistrate or a
country Gentleman throughout England who had not read it,
and if twenty years were allowed for the perusal it could not
have been more fully read and digested than it was already.
Those who read it 'knew well that the object was to ground
some measure upon it, and for that reason they gave it the
greatest attention. Some no doubt objected to the measure ;
but be would state boldly that many did so from interested
motives. He could mention an instance of parishes in which
through combination among the parties interested not less than
two-thirds of the wages were paid out of the rates, and the
labourer got no more than sixpence a day. Nothing could
more effectually destroy the independent feeling of the la-
bourer than a system of this kind. In the division for which he
acted, he knew that not less than 3,000/. a year rent was paid out
of the rates, by overcharging the rent of cottages to the amount
of 16/. rer cent. There was one parish in this metropolis
in which not less than 50,000/. was saved out of the whole
amount, being 150,000/. Gross abuses must have prevailed
for many years in this parish, or such a saving could not have
been effected in the disposal of the funds as 50,0001. a year.
Without a Commission of the kind proposed the objects con-
templated, he felt convinced, could not be attained.
The Earl of STRA DBR OK E opposed the Bill; but the
Noble Lord, who spoke from the cross benches, was quite
inaudible.
Lord WYNFORD said his Noble Friend (Lord Winchil-
sea) was mistaken in supposing that this Central BOard would
not have the power of imposing taxes to a greater amount
than 50/. Their power would extend much further than this,
because they would be at litierfy to grant double allowance,
and this could not be done without increasing the rates. This
Bill recognised the principle of the Act of Elizabeth, for it
left untouched the discretionary power of granting relief. In-
deed, it was indispensable that such power should reside some-
where. Men could not be allowed to starve, when there was
work to be got. They must be relieved. It was a law of
nature that could not be resisted. If he felt eonvinced that
one uniform rule could be established throughout the country,
he would not object to a Central Commission ; but his Noble
and Learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) himself admitted
that this could not be done. His Noble and Learned Friend
said it was vain to expect that the plan could be acted upon in
every parish, no matter how they might differ in circumstances.
If, then, as his Noble Friend admitted, there could not be one
uniform system throughout the country, what would be the use
of a Central Commission ? It would be better to leave it to
persons who possessed local knowledge. If it was necessary
that a different mode of proceeding should be adopted in
different parishes, according to circumstances, whether rich
or poor, town or country, manufacturing or agricultural,
it was a system that could not be administered by a Central
Board. He was confirmed in this view of the matter by what
fell from his Noble and Learned Friend upon this occasion.
He was as sensible as any man of the evils arising from the
mal-administration of the Poor Laws, but he was equally
sensible that this Act would not effect a cure, and would
rather aggravate the difficulties, by taking the matter out of
the hands of those who had local knowledge. It would be
impossible, under any circumstances, that a man having eight
or nine children could support himself and his family on the
same wages as a single man. He must have some allowance.
If a man had twelve children, was he to be treated as a person
who had no more than four, and were the other eight to
starve ? In the present state of the country, it would be ut-
terly impossible to avoid the application of some pecuniary
fund in the way of relief. He admitted that great and serious
evils grew out of the practice, but this Act would not afford a
remedy by giving to a Central Board unacquainted with local
eircumstances,the powers hitherto exercised by the magistrates.
The Report had been much read ; it mentioned four or five
parishes in which voluntary improvements had been made,.
and the perusal of those cases by the parties interested would,
after some time, do more good than could be effected by the
Bill.

The LORD CHANCELLOR explained.—His Noble
and Learned Friend mistook what fell from him. The ob-
ject of the Bill was, at length, to arrive at one uniform sys-
tem, but to effect that object they must pursue a different
course in different parishes, according to circumstances. The
same at the outset could not possibly be applied to all,
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the object of the
Bill and the nature of the powers exercised by Mp.gistrates
seemed to have been misunderstood. The fact Tres that the
Magistrates, as regarded the poor laws, had no adminis-
trative powers That power belonged to the overseers,
not to the Magistrates, and the object of this Bill was
to bring back the administration to the overseers, but in
a different mode, suited to each parish. The Noble and
Learned Lord (Lord Wynford) said the Report men-
tioned some cases of parishes which had been reformed,
and that the example thus set would be followed in tho
course of time, and render such a Bill unnecessary. He
happened to live in the neighbourhood of two of these pa-
rishes which were held out as models of reform. In con-
sequence of the improvements introduced they were said to
have been depauperized. Now he could say that the exam-
ple thus set was not followed by any one of the neighbour-
ing parishes. He could not account for this unless by sup-
posing it to arise from the unwillingness of the Magistrates to
interfere. Indeed they could not interfere for much good,
though they might for evil. He believed there was no means
except by some such Bill as this of bringing back the admi-
nistration of the law to what it ought to be.
Lord WYN FORD said the Magistrates certainly had no
active power of administration ; but they had sufficient power
to restrain abuse and mischief. They could if they pleased
have prevented the application of the rates in payment of wages.
The Earl of FALMOUTH said the Magistrates might
have read the Report of the Commissioners ; but he doubted
whether a majority of them were in favour of this Bill. One
reason why he wished to have it postponed was that time might
be afforded to conciliate their good opinion. He admitted the
evil of the present system ; but was it so great that an attempt
must be made to apply a remedy per saltum? Some other
remedy might be proposed by Parliament at a future time, and
if upon trial it should be found insufficient, a stronger might
be substituted. He saw no reason, for instance, why a mea-
sure should not be passed embodying the fiftieth clause.
The Marquis of SALISBURY made a few observations,
but from the low tone in which he spoke it was scarcely pos-
sible to hear a sentence that fell from him. We understood
the Noble Marquis to say that he considered that there was
one clause the most objectionable in the whole Bill, from
the extent of discretionary powers that it gave to the Corn-
missioners ; and the Magistrates had only a restraining
power over the overseers, who generally had a scale of allow-
ance in each parish, by which they were guided in their re-
lief to the poor. The same scale, however, would not be
equally just for all parishes ; for instance, it would not be
just to have the same scale for parishes in Kent and Sussex
as for other counties. He would not object to giving the Com-
missioners a superintending power over the Magistrates, but ho
certainly was not disposed to place all power in their hands.
The object of the Bill was stated to be to bring the plan back
to the old system, as the Poor Laws were originally esta-
blished, and with this view it was that certain powers were
given to the Commissioners. This was to be done gradually, by
stopping the allowance of persons who were in the habit of re-
ceiving relief, as the Commissioners might find a fitting opportu-
nity might offer. He hoped the clause to which he alluded would
be withdrawn when it was come to. There was another part
of the Bill that he also considered objectionable : he meant
that clause which limited the duration of the Bill to five years.
This lie considered too short a period for the system to work
so as to give it a fair trial, and it it should happen not to suc-
ceed in that time, the difficulties in the way for a new settle-
ment of the question would be incalculable, and must be greatly
multiplied. The whole machinery established by the Bill
would be utterly useless. He was very ready to support the
general principle of the Bill, but he hoped several amend..
ments would be made in it before it went through the Com-
mittee. There was one point that he was very desirous of
urging, and that was the necessity of giving to paupers a right
of appeal to the Justices • and he should also wish the magis-
trates to have the power of granting allowances to paupers net.
withstanding any order of the Commissioners. He was so
little in the habit of addressing their Lordships that he feared
lie had not made himself clearly understood, but he wished to
repeat that to the Bill itself, if satisfactorily amended, he was
not at all opposed.
The Earl of HARE WOOD looked upon the appointment
of the Commissioners,and the powers given to them,as the chief
objection to the Bill. He allowed that them were many
abuses in the present system of the Poor Laws, and the man-
ner in which they were administered, that required remedy—
( Hear, hear)—but he did not think that the provisions of the
present Bill were the best means of curing the evil. The
overseers arid guardians of the poor in parishes would in
future be under the control of the Commissioners, and it
being their interest as rate-payers themselves to keep down
the rate as low as possible, so that the Commissioners might
often find parishes without the necessary funds to snpply the
wants of the poor. He had no objection to the rates being
kept low, and he had only pointed this out as one of the in-
conveniences that might arise from the He did not
think that it was either wise or practicable to attempt to
come back to the provisions of the Act passed in the 43d of
Elizabeth. There was now a different state of society alto-
gether, and the poor rates must be regulated according to
that. How would it be possible for the Commissioners to
use their authority under particular circumstances that might
arise ? There was at this present time a
from that being
large surplus of
labour throughout the country, and s° fax
likely to diminish, it was much more likely to increase, as lands
were every day going out of cultivation.. It would be impos.
sible to fix with any degree of justtce or certainty who should
and who should not be supported out of the poor rates. Would,
it not be a great hardship on the labourers of a district
to tell them that they could not be supported because
a set of strange men had come upon the rates for assist:
anee ? What was t
nowo be done with the manufacturing
labourers who were mixing themselves up throughout
the country with the agricultural labourers ? It was well known
that those men could do nothing at agricultural labour. In-
deed they were aware of it themselves, and admitted it. The
most stout and able-bodied men said that they could not do
the work of an agricultural labourer. He much feared that if
these discretionary powers were given to the Commissioners,
they would be used with too severe a pressure upon those who
did not usually fall upon the rates. He knew that, as far as
it applied to that part of the country with which he was ac-
quainted in the north, the system was not at all likely to be
beneficial. He would only add, that he by no means liked