The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-19 00:00:00

stituency, and the great mass of the population.—(He_ar.),
Ile, felt called upon to come forward on the present occasion.
the more especially as the Pope had included the principal
towns of Devon in one of his newly-created bishoprics, with-
out having taken the slightest trouble to ascertain whether
he had any locus standi in the matter. The establishme t
n
of any such ecclesiastical arrangements by a foreign. power
was not for an instant to be compared with ecclesiastical „
arrangements made within our own borders by religious
communities who adhered to no foreign power. If Ro-
man Catholics would disconnect themselves from Rome,
and own no other foreign supremacy, there would be an end
to the contest, and no legislation would be necessary. The
arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for Plymouth
had been so promptly disposed of by the Hon. and Learned
Member for the city of Oxfurd,`that he should not now repeat.
them. As a represen ative of one of the most important
counties of England, he must state on the part of the lulls',
bitants—and more especially on behalf of the inhabitants of
Plymouth—that so far from no wishing legislation on this
question, they were utterly disapp inted at the inadequacy
of the measure brought forward by the Governnaent.—(beeer.
hear.) The first declaration of the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government, and his statement ia introducing the
Bill, had given much satisfaction. He be'ieved that the .. -
ogle Lord was sincere, and that he would have proposed a •
very different measure if he had been allowed to have his own
way in the matter.—(Hear.) Other legislation was pre
mised if the present Bill should be found ineffectual; but the
best motto was principiis obsta. The language of the pope
proved the unalterable and domineering principle of the lle•
mist' Church, which required implicit obedience to its aivi
premacy. The Noble Lord seemed to think that the countri
would not be satisfied with the Bill as attirst proposed- 14°If'
then could the Noble Lord imagine that they would be seal"
fled with it now, that the morn stringent enactments were
omitted from it? He should vote for the second readar
but with a hope that the more salutary parts of the trivially.

would be restored in Committee.
as t
r.
m
himselfA WALTER
Hon.said
mheem
bhadel who
hsohnhialadr
justexcuse
down,fo rpre se.
for
name of the town which he represented had been muna tsil3t
the
of by the Pope to designate one of the Papal bishoprics.
.ell
rose for the purpose of protesting against what he deenineti,r.
be an act of unwarranted aggression and usurpation on ,
part of the Pope. He called it an act of aggression D Au;
it violated the provisions of the Act by which ItOrott
tolics were admitted to seats in that House, and ilei.rpope
usurpation because under no circumstances was tPrasteeal
justified in annexing territorial titles to any eccles _
office he might create in this country. In the
dozeil
debate the clause to which reference had been °
made, in the Act of 1829, had been misquoted at least a
arson
times. In that clause it was stipulated that if enY Pine or
other than the persons authorised by law should ell a or
use any title of archbishop, bishop, or dean, in E„sntiaento *
Ireland, he should for every such offence be *ifs close
penalty of 100/. He had heard it contended that ti-71.
a carve
referred only to existing dioceses; but having
hedrneot fouad
fully not only the Act, but he debate, he,, Any Pall
the word " existing" or any equivalent woru `" s that
of the discussion or of the Act. The maxim we'd as he
course tie;
penal clause ought to be interpreted strictly ; an be wee
found no reference in the clause to particular sees, The
entitled to infer that it had a general signillestinenierred to
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon had r Act' and
the part he had taken in the Charitable Bequests . dis.
had asked what was the meaning of " officiating 111. one
trict," but having a diocese? or "superintendingber.
gregation," but being a parish priest? In o°l' he dee
stance, in which the Right Hon. Baronet said that
of the,
murred to the right of archbishops or bishops, he
Romish Church claiming titles from certain loeell'lrsde
supplied the best answer to what he had previousrlYnoat t
vanced. The speech of the Honourable and Learned 14 a
.eratbpoett.--
for Plymouth had been referred to, and he admitted
more able speech on that side of the question it Was is had
sible to imagine. The Hon. and Learned Gentian: ow
asked whether the first bishops of the Church, ill° tieing
of the early Roman Emperors, invaded any right by othel
the titles which they enjoyed? But that wall
might be met by another. What, it might be ea' clads.
the notion which the first Roman Emperors had of A evil
tian bishop? The only notion which the early ELnPrabee
could have of a bishop must have been as of a poor, 1111.9awbose
forlorn being—the leader of a perhaps despised seellacuted•
only claim to distinction was a priority of being rp e 0
He contended that in those early ages the title of bishop4Z-t
no poli ical significance whatever. Very' different it wiphlest
be after the recognition of Christianity by the State',.. &De
then would find itself called on to exercise considerab7jou of
trol over these bishops. Immediately after the rest/
Christianity by the State the influence of the laity le resented
felt, and from that time to the present the laity, I'o4 voice
by the civil power, had always exercised a coneu,rbreL, fie
with that of the Church in the appointment of h's"e"rte tithe
believed that if the measure of the Pope was allowe- d°'effe' t the dominions of the Queen would be the see
minions in the world in which the full developinee! of
clesiastical functions was allowed without the least pope
by the laity.— ( Hear, hear.) His quarrel WitU rote'
was not for his claim of spiritual authority, but for his es°
rence with the territorial dominion of the Crown. :gr3.
objected to the form which was used on that occasioundesarrios
most intolerable expression of spiritual dominion
fiance pos.ible. It was true forms were but the ehaadows. eft
realities, but although this country might be in
receiving any injury at the hands of Rome, still it was bunt,-
power of toe
to protest against any extension of the Pow opt
Church which did not want intentions, at least, to proand
its encroachments. He did not agree with an Hon' beg
Learned Member who had already addressed the House, t,
the Church of Rome or its members should be alloweu ""'
decide for themselves that very difficult and delicate qua!:
tion of what constituted the difference between civil and r!if.
gious affairs.—(Hear.) If they were allowed to decide Weal
no dangereci
were the limits of spiritual jurisdiction, and the nature
territorial titles, the Romish Church should be permitted t,_:s2
decide also on matters of a mixed spiritual and temporal
character. He considered that the State owed to the prof."
sors of all religions protection from the abuse of the authority
of their superiors —(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Sheffield
said it was only the submission of one man's mind to atir
thets and asked what business was that of any one else.;
Now he (Mr. Walter) thought that was neither a humane °`
a just view of the question. He thought we had no right Le
refuse people the consolation of spiritual advice for the es'
erciso of their temporal duties.—(Hear, hear.) In to(t
countries abroad the State exercised a spiritual centre'
over the Roman Catholic Church. In Austria, for example'
no sentence of excommunication could be carried into ebec
against any person unless the State was satisfied that
the offence committed was merely of a spiritual cb
racter. The Honourable Member here referred to, an
a couple of long extracts from a work by Dr. Twists 012.
the nature of the appointment of bishops, which the Writ'.
contended was a temporal act and not a spiritual one.
could not forget the step which the Noble Lord at the lie
of the Government had taken in respect of the present le'
gression, nor the agitation which that step had given rise t°,_"
That agitation would open the eyes of the Roman Catholic'
in a way in which they had not been hitherto °Pencil'''.
(Hear)—to an important fact, n
ame,ly, the deep-rooted Prr
testautism of this country. - (Hear.) It might be practicahl
tree that the Pope might believe, and did believe, that the
country was on the eve of a great Catholic movement- sit
(Hear.) Even amongst Roman Catholics possessieg eat
information and knowledge of the world, there bad prevs:o
a great mistake with respect to the religious feeling
,Def man
country. He had had the observation made by
Catholics to himself that the acts of a few bewildered claret
men and weak-minded laymen had been mistaken forai .urtf
liberate intention, on the part of the Protestant Lieu:Zito
England, to abandon that strong position it hal Urfa
maintained with regard to the Church of Rome'--` their
hear.) The agitation upon that question would opets h
eyes to the great mistake they had made, end tc crept*,
Pope to be more cautious in future in trusting thence of
sentatiens of those who brought him intelligiees
the condition of this country. It would sle°;na Out
the Roman Catholics to be more careful in oarrY„„—t'y.--1
their system of proselytising throughout the 07. e. flee
system which he thought was a calamity to be ov°L-sn-ele
cause of its evil consequences and results. If the &see; eS,
this country were once possessed of the idea that e• sot
isted any danger that an unmarried Roman Catholic J
at olla!
would be set up side by side with their own Ps the
t
clerg) men —if they thought there was any dangerh eptad
death-beds of their fellow-countrymen would be ietaleseio*
by such a person - if there was any danger of neing
tying generally introduced, or of their daughters A',;:seeeira
duced into convents—if the people of EnglandpOract-ee-t:tbioero
not under the impression that the law would
in such cases, they would be inclined to take the let here_.
their own hands.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mertt—reSP.C4
briefly referred to the operation of the measure With
arid aot
to Ireland, but in so indistinct a tone that we cciest
clearly catch his words. He then went on to say eon'
the
Protestant constitution in Church and lattteelPt
tinued in this empire, so long should he resist every a, after
at encroachment upon it. Although the Noble Lere.,‘"„seure
his memorable letter, might have produced a Or:
more worthy of the expectations raised bY PO
Walter) would support the present Bill in the aliotter
the objects it had in view might be further and coal'
carried out on a future occasion when it went ill.-
rnittee.—(Hear.)
_ra the
Mr. ANSTEY said a reason alleged for sePP°''„--pertt
present Bill was that it would induce every mall et/Pe'ai gut''
however small, in Ireland, to leave that country. Orb
a sentiment should have been received by tilos° w-thet,':
ported the Hon. Member was not '`
should not have been repudiated by others was strange'
eoples
could not but have an exasperating effect on the Irisb cinch
and for his part he protested against such sentiments' of the
he did not think were shared in by the Ministers. the*
Crown. If he thought so he would not only oPPTre the,
upon the present, but upon every other Papal m
ost arle°r
might introduce. It was one of the greatest and MT
eei thet ts!
ing misfortunes of discussions upon the present -,ertatine- -
it imposed upon its opponents the temptation to red their
by retorting with effect the accusations brought I.tilher
selves on its supporters. If one party had their ;ow, sow'
to e, the others had their vicars of Wrexhill. gentle
respect to the pr sent agitation, he found that ece,rYr sectioe
man came forward, in the name of his own partials'
all et
of the Church, to protect himself and party lead on t"-
picion in the matter, by being the first to lea I, gain*
people of this country in the chase of the colon]: might,
the Church of Rome, in the hope that the harl"-thollgt'
follow carrion and not see the real game. And he deceived
the Hon. Members for Oxford and Cambridge peoples
themselves if they supposed that in directing. from the
minds to that matter they misled the public gun" Wejonget
abuses said to exist in the Church to which they, WO`
The Hon. Member for Oxford city had shown 03 a was
speech of his - not his late one—b what views be
b. The
animated with respect to the Romany Catholic Churc e n the
Hon. Member would place in the hands of the Quien this
power exercised by the Pope of appointing bishoeP.s. pellet
country and in the colonies, and would place telltended
without the interference of Parliament. He also nnoitholio
that if the Pope attempted to regulate the Roman of the
religion, not only in England alone, but in any I,:tsee.
Queen's dominions, he violated the Queen's prerog.-be Queen"
(Mr. Anstey) denied that. Everybody knew that The ef Eng'
ecclesiastic 1 law was strictly local. The Ge Roma
land was the Church of this realm only. rsr feign Of
Catholic Church, every dissenting church, every
„eese to
Christianity, every form of religious belief Iloooutn°l.le,' e_taiantll:
the laws of God and nature, enjoyed as
in her Majesty's foreign dominions as the Church of 'n,g tee
itself; and the Papal bull and the letters patent
.01 Is,
upon the consciences of men as they felt impelled to. _
Crown rested there upon the same foundation, bindin °nu
ence or otherwise. The Hon. Member for Oxford said teei;
aggression of the Pope ; but it was not because they w__;.
were Roman Catholics who protested against the Pril_stf,
ready to accept the tyranny which the Hon. Members,Psos
posed. The Bill before them consisted of two clause
One
Bill which was to legislate only en the barren quoesti°Fl
f SCOt‘
in prasenti, the other future. He could not agree t__
titles. Did not the episcopal titles of the Church Why
should afford as much reason as the Church of Ireland ? iers
should there be an exception at all ? If there wastoer,.
• in Irelaii`'
nister ougt to begin. The cases of two bishoprics the°
an exemption, he thought it was with Ireland the Mt"
had been alluded to, those of Ross and Galway, but in
iv,
case; the Pope had only interfered so far as to sanction !2::1;
t
choaudrsbeeteankeanlreinadtyhe dporenseenitnmlartetlearnidn.
England,With res
hpeeeotoniesom.
he did not approve of it.—(Hear.) He thought it the
wrong for the Pope to have taken the initiative before