The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-05 00:00:00

Property. This measure is the result of inquiries
which I have caused to be made into the practicability
of adopting a system of Registration calculated to
give security to titles, and to diminish the causes of
litigation to which they have hitherto been liable,
and to reduce the cost of transfers.
" To combine the progress of improvement with
the stability of our institutions will, I am confident,
be your constant care. 'We may esteem ourselves
fortunate that we can pursue, without disturbance,
the course of calm and peaceable amelioration ;
and we have every cause to be thankful to Almighty
God for the measure of tranquillity and happiness
which has been vouchsafed to us."
The Queen's Speech having been again read by the
Clerk at the table,
The Earl of EFFINGHAM then rose to move the
Address in answer to the Speech from the Throne. The
• Noble Lord said that he could assure their Lordships
that he most sincerely begged their indulgence, not only
on account of its being the first time that he had ever
addressed their Lordships, but on account of the im-
portance of the subjects alluded to in her Majesty's
Speech—subjects which ought to be discussed with
calmness and indulgence.—(Hoar, hear, and cheers.)
Be congratulated the House on there being a prospect
of a termination at last of that contest with which the
North of Europe had been convulsed; and he trusted
their Lordships would rejoice with him in that pros-
pect at the cessation of hostilities in the kingdom of
Denmark, to produce which cessation the efforts of her
Majesty's Government had been unceasingly di-
rected ; and he trusted that peace would be
produced which was so essential to the
prosperity of all nations. He felt convinced that their
Lordships and the public would be rejoiced to learn that
steps had been taken by the Government of the Brazils
for the suppression of the slave-trade. It was a subject
of great congratulation to consider that, notwith-
standing the great reductions which had taken place in
taxation, our finances were still prosperous. The pros-
perity of the country was most general, if not universal.
There had been a reduction of taxation in the last year
in stamps, bricks, and other articles, and yet they had a
surplus. In the year 1849 there had been an excess
of 10,000,000 L in our exports. That excess had been
greatly exceeded during the past year. They found, too,
that the number of paupers had decreased, not only in
the manufacturing but in the agricultural counties.
Perhaps he might be told that this decrease in the agri-
cultural counties was owing to the increase of employ-
ment in consequence of the drainage in the agricultural
countries; but this he considered a subject of congratu-
. lation. He might be told that, so far as landowners were
concerned, distress existed.—(Hear, hear.) This he was
disposed to admit, but he contended that the labouring
population was better off than it had been heretofore.
With regard to the Papal aggression, he thought
their Lordships would admit that there had
been no such aggression attempted in Roman Catholic
times in this country, and that no Roman Catholic laity
would submit to sach an aggression.—(Hear, hear.)
The meetings which had been held throughout the
country on this subject showed that the heart of the
country was sound, add that it would not submit to any
aggression.—(Hear, hear.) Some measure, they were
assured, would be submitted to Parliament; it was not
for him to say what that measure would be, but he
trusted that it would be satisfactory to the country;
while, at the same time, it would not deprive any
of our fellow-subjects of their just rights and
privileges. (Hear, hear.) He would afford
to the Roman Catholics every facility for developing
their religion; but if they could not do that without in-
stituting an hierarchy with English territorial designa-
tions, then he was prepared to say that measures should
be taken to prevent them from infringing on our reli-
gious and civil liberties. I: had been said that this ap-
pointment of an hierarchy was intended to be preparatory
to the introduction of the canon law, but that law
could not be introduced consistently with the supremacy
of our own law. The Pope by making these appoint-
ments had assumed in this country a power which was
incompatible with the maintenance of the supremacy of
our own Sovereign.—(Hear, heal") He hoped, there-
fore, that the Government would meet this aggression,
and would introduce a measure for that purpose. He
was rejoiced to find that measures of law reform were
to be introduced, more particularly a measure for the re-
. gistration of deeds. He, in conclusion, begged to express
his satisfaction at the generally prosperous state of the
country, and concluded by moving the Address, which
was, as usual, an echo of the Speech.
Lord CREMORNE, in seconding the Address, said
that in doing so he felt much in need of that indul-
gence which was usually extended to those who occu-
pied the position which he then occupied. He would
not, after the able speech of the Noble Earl
dilate upon the topics of the' Address, but there were
certain portions of the Address upon which he felt it ne-
cessary to make some observations. The late aggression
by the Papal See called particularly for observation, and
he entirely concurred with the Noble Earl in all he had
said on than subject, and he trusted their Lordships
would cordially concur in the measures which might
he proposed to prevent the encroachments of the Papal
power—measures which would be calculated to resist
aggression without infringing on the principles of reli-
gious liberty; and ha felt that the Roman. Catholic
Peers themselves, and the Roman Catholic Members ot
the House of Commons, would feel it necessary to
follow the example of their Roman Catholic ancestors,
and to adopt measures to prevent the encroachments of
the Pope upon the liberties of this country.—(Hear
hear.) Her Majesty had alluded to agricul-
tural distress, it was a subject well worthy
of their eccea serious consideration.—(Pro-
tectionist cheers.) He wculd not allude to the
causes or remedies for this distress, but would content
himself with saying, that so intimately were the interests
of all classes bound up together, that it was impossible
but that manufacturing prosperity must eventually
react on agricultural distress. The Noble Lord then
described the deep distress which was suffered by
the agricultural claes in Ireland. The recur-
rence of the potato failure for several years, and
the diminished price of agricultural produce, had
deeply affected the state of Ireland, and so deep had
been the distress occasioned than many proprietors
had been petitioners to the Encumbered Estates
Commissioners; but that did not prove that Ireland was
without capital or resources, for the greater number of
purchasers under that Act had been Irishmen, and so
convinced was he that,that measure had worked well,
that if a similar measure were introduced for England
he would support it.—(Hear, hear, and cries of "No,
no.") He would no longer detain their Lordships, but
would corate,a himself with seconding the Address.
Lord STANLEY said that, as a general rule, he had
always been of opinion, and he still entertained that opinion,
that unless there were something in an Address to her Ma-
jesty in answer to her Majesty's Speech from the Throne
which contained an indication of principle on which it was
utterly impossible for the House to agree—or unless it spoke
of topics in terms in which it was impossible to concur— it
was generally most respectful to the Crown, as it was most
convenient to their Lordships, and most convenient for the
prompt discharge of public business—that this and the
other House ot Parliament should, on such occasions,
proceed with the Speech with that respect which was
due from the Houses of Parliament, and receive such
Speech as a silent indication of the principal measures
and topics which were likely to come under the considera-
tion of Parliament, without expressing any opinion as to
the merits of the measures themselves, or the course
which Parliament might pursue. And though, for his
own part, he was not satisfied with the language of the
Speech tom the Throne, inasmuch as there was something
which might he more appropriately expressed, and that there
were some other matters which might have found a place in
the Speech, but which were not there—yet; upon the whole,
he would preface what he had to say by a declaration on his
own part, and he believed he might say on behalf of the
great body of those with whom he bad the honour to act—
that it was not his or their intention, by an amendment, to
negative or alter the Address to her Majesty. There were
some topics of an ordinary and common-place kind. With
reference to the suggested amendments of the law they were
most important matters in themselves, though most difficult
to carry out. and to those amendments in short, and to
those alterations, as fully exemplifying the question to which
they were intended to apply—as, for instance, the registra-
tion of deeds connected with the transfer of property—when
those measures which involved no question of political or
party spirit should be submitted to this and the other House
of Parliament, they should meet with that dispassionate and
calm consideration and attention which the importance of
the subject demanded. With regard' to foreign affairs so far
as they had evidence from the language of that part of the
Speech, the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
had been actively employed.—(A laugh.) In reference to
the s'ruggle between Prussia and Denmark, it was satisfac-
tory to find that the differences between the two countries
were likely to be brought to a termination; but how far
that state of things was due to the intervention of her
Majesty's Government he was at a loss to discover.
He felt that the settlement of the differences be-
tween Denmark and Prussia was owing partly to the
expression of opinion of all civilised Europe of the unjustifia-
ble character of the aggression, more than to the inter-
ference of any
Governments; partly to the firm attitude
taken by Austria, and most of all by the arguments, backed
by the representations and unsparing efforts, of Russia. But
to whatever cause the settlement ofthese differences was at-
tributable, he rejoiced in the removal of a state of things
which at one time threatened to disturb the peace of
Europe; he rejoiced that this the only chance of hostile
movements was for the present,
h eanlndovherihipped permanently,
at an end. The Noble Earl,
of
Brazil
Address, had
declared, in unison with the Speech, that
of the
taken
new and efficient measures for the suppressionz;odidthe atro-
cious traffic in slaves. Now he (Lord Stanley)
to hope, not that Brazil would take any new or efficient
measures for the suppression of the slave trade, but thattlt
that Government would give bonii fide force to existing
He believed that no power in the worlci
treaties. had
done so much to foster and promote that trade, having
within itself a greater power to mitigate the
horrors of that trade. He could not help calling
attention, that we had, if we thought fit to use it, a
more powerful engine for the suppression of this most abo-
minable traffic. For years we hail employed thousands
upon thousands of men to put down the trade, and we had
expended much blood in the attempt ; but what was the
fact? Our commercial regulations strengthened and effectu-
ally encouraged the slave traee. There were two topics in
the Speech of the deepest interest ; and while he did justice
to the ability of the Noble Earl who had addressed their
Lordships, he rejoiced to find that an important class—the
owners and occupiers of land—sere cow spoken of with
something more of respect, and with something less of
neglect, than had been the case in the course of the last
few years. It was a melancholy satisfaction to those who
were owners and occupiers of land—aye, and he would add,
" labourers" too—(Cheers)—it was a melancholy satisfaction
to them to know that the reasonableness, the extent, and the
reality of their claims were acknowledged by her Majesty's
Government. Last year her Majesty's Government held that
it set's net the distress of the body generally, but the com-
Jmste ef tinjitin portion of the owners and occupiers of
aticti'hat has 35_ ilieatYt on that occasion, was consoled by the I
fiet Met from the CheSPeao and abundance of the comforts

of life, the people were prosperous. This year they were
regarded as an important body. They were no longer
to be separated from other classes. And he concurred with
the seconder of the Address in the declaration that this, of all
classes in this country, of all manufacturers, was most deeply
and vitally connected with the country generally, as the
manufacturers of human food. They were obliged by
the sympathy which was expressed in the Speech for that
important, formerly wealthy. and still loyal, though deeply
suffering, portion of the country. But he should have re-
ceived that Speech with more satisfaction—he should have
concurred more in the language of the Address, if he had
seen held out either in the Speech itself, or by either of those
of the Noble Lords, who might be considered as authorised on
the part of the Government to do so, any expectation or hope,
however feeble, of a diminution of those difficulties. They
were told that there was a great and general prosperity in
the country—that the manufacturing districts and our com-
mercial interests, with the general bulk of the people, were
prosperous—that the most important interests were pros-
perous, and that, notwithstanding the reduction of taxa-
tion, the revenue was in a satisfactory condition, by
which he supposed that there was at the disposal of
her Majesty's Government a surplus applicable to
a reduction of taxation. If it were the fact that all other
interests were prosperous—if it were the fact that the most
important interest was suffering—if it were possible to do
something in the way of remission of taxes, he asked to
what was that to be extended? Was it to the relief of those
who were enjoying a large amount of prosperity, or those
who were suffering under the present state cl things?
(Hear.) And yet throughout the speeches of the mover and
seconder he found no intimation on the part of the Govern-
ment whether there should be a relief of taxation or any
other mode by which to put forth a single finger to the
relief of this class. He would ask her Majesty's Government
—the Noble Lord shrunk from the inquiry—to what it was
they attributed this long-continued distress ?—(Cheers.)
Could any man deny that the distress among owners and
occupiers of land was attributable to the system of legisla-
tion, be it right or be it wrong, or for the gnneral advantage
of the community, which had been introduced within the
last few years, and which had fallen so heavily upon the
agricultural body—he asked, could any one deny that that
distress was not temporary, but permanent, and was owing
to the course of legislation adopted within the last few
years? But if it were owing to legislation, and the Govern-
ment could give relief, what excuse could they give for
obstinately refusing to give that relief? Men called theirs an
exceptional case—they were told that the circumstances
were exceptional. The year before last it was an excep-
tional case, because they had a large introductiork of foreign
corn. Last year there was a very abundant harvest at
home, coincident with abundant harvests abroad. At the
time when the corn-laws were repealed the price of wheat
was 455., last year 425. They were assured—and it was
proved by the supporters of that policy, by the prices of
foreign markets, and by everything which they could bring
to bear in favour of their argument--that prices would
rise to a point which would leave no profit to importers.
They were assured that there would be a great rise, and some
thought that there would be a reaction under the system of
free trade—that they would have high prices in March,
whereas the result proved that prices were extremely low.
They were, however, told by free-traders, who were the first
to demand cheap corn, to hope for the best, for prices which
had gone down very low were rising, and the agriculturists
might entertain hopes of the future. But what was the fact?
The average price was then 425., it went down to 415.,
to 40s. 395., 385., and at the moment he was addressing their
Lordships the average price was 375. 2d.— (Hear. ) While
prices varied from 425. to 375. and some pence, they had had
poured into the country a continued stream of foreign wheat
and wheat flour, amounting to 4,503,000 quarters ; and by
recent advices, so far from our finding foreign importers sick
of their bargain, " the cry was still they come," and our
native markets were swamped with the corn of foreign coun-
tries.—(Hear.) He was bound to say that, as far as the re-
cent measures were concerned, they had not answered ex-
pectations. He knew many persons who gave their support
to the free-trade measures in corn, in the confident expecta-
tion that no diminution of the price of wheat or the value of
land would occur, who were obliged to confess, from the di-
minution that had occurred, that the result was beyond or-
dinary calculation. He would remind the Noble Earl, the
Secretary for the Colonies, that even he anticipated a rise in
the value of land from free-trade measures—at least from the
speech of the Noble Earl at the time -it appeared to him
that the Noble Earl had reason to believe that the value of
land—at least agricultural land—would not be lowered
(we understood) by the operation of the principles of free
trade. The Noble Lord who seconded the Address spoke of
the benefits that had been derived by the passing of the
Encumbered Estates Bill in Ireland, and appeared to think a
similar measure might with equal advantage be extended
to England. The Noble Lord considered that benefits had
arisen from the transference of land from orfh person to
another—from the debtor to the creditor; and speaking of
the prices that were 'obtained, he considered the Act had
worked under " existing circumstances" as well as could be
expected. But when the character of these "existing
circumstances" was inquired into, it turned out that the
low price which the land fetched under the Bill was not to
be attributed to the quantity of land poured at once into
the market, but it was the depreciation of the value of
agricultural produce, through free-trade measures, which had
made the land of less value. The Encumbered Estates Act
was no doubt a convenience to the nominal proprietor of an
estate with heavy encumbrances upon it, for by its operation
he could get back the estate unencumbered at the price of
about five or six years' purchase. It might also be true that
an encumbered estate was purchased by a creditor, as a sort
of bad debt; but certainly for Noble Lords to congratulate
themselves on the operation of an Act that threw large por-
tions of land, at prices varying from five to nine years'
purchase of the net profits of the rent of the estate,
in the hands of new purchasers, was, in his opinion, a very
sorry mode of rejoicing indeed. He thought when the En-
cumbered Estates Bill was passed that Ireland was to be re-
generatel by the introduction of a new class of capitalists.
Bnt the fact as it appeared was, that hardly 1001. of Eng-
lish money had been expended in the purchase of Irish
estates. Consequently all the sacrifices that had taken place
had eccurred without adding one shilling to the circulating
capital of that part of the United Kingdom. The Encum-
bered Estates Bill might have afforded means to some of
getting out of difficulties, might have worked satisfactorily
in some points, and might have performed an operation
which the Noble Lord had considered to be so beneficial
namely, the substitution of new for ancient proprietors.
Now where a person was only the nominal proprietor of an
over-encumbered estate, it might be an advantage to have a
transfer of the property to solvent hands; but, as a general
rule, it was not desirable that landed properties should chage
hands in that way. It was not an object to be aimed at by
legislation—that of breaking up old connexions between
landlord and tenant, and substituting a new class of proprie-
tors over those who had occupied the land for years. Ile
wished to maintain, not to accelerate the fall of the ancient
landed proprietary. He firmly believed they formed the best
security and stability of the country, and that they best
promoted the general content and happiness of the people,
and it was therefore no satisfaction to him to be told that the
difficulties of the old owners and occupiers of land were so
insuperable as only to be overcome by the introduction of a
new set of proprietors. He could not view without commis-
seration those who had been driven from their paternal
nnes, and he should be sorry to see such a measure intro-
duced into England. Although in the Royal Speech the
difficulties of landlords, owners, and occupiers of land were
only touched upon, he must be allowed to say all classes
were in a state of positive suffering. The owner and occu-
pier at the same time and from the same causes, found their
means curtailed and their capitals reduced to nothing. The
agricultural labourer was also suffering. lie might be told
that great improvements were going on in agriculture, that
great works were being effected, and that great employment
was just now given. He did not believe, as a general case,
that employment was given by the occupiers of the land. He
believed it was given by the owners of the land, who, rather
than part with their property, were ruining themselves by
their efforts to keep up the cultivation of the land, and to pre-
vent the agricultural labouring class from throwing them-
selves on the poor-laws. This they did, even though they
thereby furnished to the Free-trader an argument in favour
of his principles -the Fres-trader pointing out the diminu-
tion of agricultural pauperism as a proof of the benefits of
free trade. In one paragraph of the Royal Speech he could
not agree. It was that which expressed a ,confident hope
that the prosperous condition of other classes would have an
effect in diminishing the difficulties and promoting the inte-
rests of agriculture. While he received with respect the
expressions of her Majesty, he yet hoped the House would
not be called upon to share iu those expressions of confi-
dent hope that the difficulties of the agricultural classes
would be materially diminished, or their interests materially
promoted by the prosperous condition of other classes of her
Majesty's subjects. He did not mean to deny that the pros-
perous condition of the agricultural was not connected with
the prosperous condition of the manufacturing interest. He
well knew that the prosperity of the one class bore on the
prosperity of the other class; and that particularly those
agricultural classes which were sot expressly engaged in
growing corn crops obtained advantages by the increased
means of consumption possessed by the manufacturing
class. But with regard to the growers of corn, and other spe-
cial kinds of agricultural produce—though prior to 1846
they were directly affected by the prosperous condition of
manufacturers, yet it must be recollected that this commu-
nity of interests had been materially altered and weakened
since that period. Before 1846 the agriculturists had com-
mand of their markets, and they derived an advantage from
that cause, and from the prosperity of the manufacturing in-
terest, and their greater power to consume agricultural pro-
duce might be exceedingly beneficial to the agriculture of
France—a country which exposed the opponents of free-trade
to ridicule from the Free-traders for saying that it could ever
become an exporting country—to the agriculture of Prussia
—to the agriculture of the United States and their boundless
continent, but certainly not to the agriculturists of the
United Kingdom, as,, it was quite certain that the foreign
grower now got a larger share than the British grower of
any prosperity the manufacturing interest might enjoy.—
(Hear, hear.) The free-trade in corn measure was a measare
which dissolved the close connexion of interests which
heretofore bound up the prosperity of the manufacturing
with the prosperity of the agricultural interest. He main-
tained his opinions as to the impolicy of the Act of 1846 un-
altered. He did not look for any important increase of pros-
perity to the agricultal interests under the existing law;
and under the existing financial system he did not share the
hope that the prosperity of other classes would react on the
agricultural class. He believed that the present prices were
the permanent effects of recent legislation. He believed the
prosperity of a material portion of the country had been di-
minished, that with reduced capital there was no less ability
to bear the enormous taxation and debt which no other
country could bear, and which was only borne by this
country through the operation of that protection which was
formerly given by the country to the products of its own in-
dustry.—( Hear, hear.)
There wasa far more serious topic
to deal with—a topic which he felt it was hardly possible to
overrate its importance. It was impossible not to feel that
by recent
measures—he would not say a recent measure—of
the head of the Roman Catholic Church, there had been an
agthgiaress alogn_
on the supremacy of the insolent
gression had been rendered moreand--
tnhga t
aggressive, dangerous, and unconstitutional, he would not say
an insidious, but he would say an iannsudlti
p loffen-
sive by the manner in which the recent Papal proceedings
i
had been carried into effect.— (Hear, hear.) It was impos-
sible to condemn the recent Papal measures n strongeri
terms than had been used by the Noble Lord who held the
responsible post of principal adviser of the Crown. The
Noble Lord, in a letter which had obtained much celebrity
as a public document, and which had produced no inferior
effect on the public mind, described the aggression as " an
assumption of power, a pretension to supremacy over the
realm of England, and a claim to sole and undivided sway,
d egpl rights of
ce ouro
fb
theis hop s
nation, and
as clear
which is inconsistent with the Queen's supremacy, with the
r;
gssye,rtaenddevwein in thtßhoemsapnircitautahlnilnin-
times." When the Noble Lord penned these sentences, and
when he sent them forth as the deliberate opinion of the head
of her Majesty's Government, when it was announced to the
Protestant country of England that the Queen's
had been insulted—the religious opinions of t:uriecroeuninatreyy
threatened—the rights of the bishops and clergy
of
Established Church invaded, the Noble Lord could not have
the
written, much less published these sentences, without being
aware of the flame which would be kindled throughout
the nation. The generous, spontaneous, universal Pro-
testant feeling that broke forth from one end of the country

to another—he regretted that in some instances unjustifiably
intemperate language was used—was not directed against
the persons or the religion of the Roman Catholics, but
against that insolent assumption of power in this country by
a foreign prelate, which had been denounced in the strongest
terms by the Prime Minister. But when the Noble Lord
made this appeal to the United Kingdom of Great Britain
—when he called forth this manifestation of Protestant
feeling from all parts of the country, the Noble Lord could
hardly have taken such a course without calculating on the
struggle on which he and the country were about to enter.—
(Hear, hear.) They were not about to enter into the ques-
tion of the expediency of the adaption of this or the other
system of religion (as we understood)—they were not deal-
ing with a single act, but with a succession of aggressive
acts on the part of the Court of Rome which the Noble Lord
had so suitably characterised. They were protesting
against the interference, the unauthorized interference,
of a foreign power in the domestic affairs of
this country. This was no question of religious
controversy.—(Hear.) He hoped neither in that or the
other House would the question be treated as a question of
the comparative purity of the doctrines of this or that
church.—(Hear.) God forbid, he said, that, on account of
their religious principles, any portion of their Roman Ca-
tholic fellow-subjects shonld be deprived of their religious
freedom—(Hear)—or be stripped of a single jot of those
civil rights which had been conferred on them. If it were
to be so, he for one could not
" Share the triumph and partake the gale."
These were not his views.—(Cheers.) But the question
was, shall Roman Catholic prelates—shall the heal of the
Roman Catholic Church—be permitted to exercise in this
country, unfettered and unchecked by law, a dangerous and
mischievous interference, not in mere name and title, but in
substantial reality, with the government of the country?
That was she question they asked with reference to the great
struggle on which they were about to enter. If the Noble
Lord's letter meant anything, it meant this, the vindication
of the rights of the clergy, the vindication of the undi-
vided supremacy of her Majesty, and the resolute
repression of the aggression of a foreign power by
.the agency
of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) He did not object to the
privileges conferred on the Roman Catholics after the passing
of the Relief Act in 1829 ; but he had not shut his eyes to
the mischief that had since resulted, and he knew that many
regretted the evils had not been checked at the outset. It
had been found that every concession, every act of tolera-
tion, every non-infliction of penalty fbr violating the law,
had been looked upon by the Roman Catholics, not as so
many acts of liberal toleration, but as so many indications
of weakness.—( Hear, hear.) These encroachments, it was
perceived, were growing more formidable, until at last they
rose to such a pitch as to draw from the First Minister of
the Crown that declaration which he had referred to. Let
not the House therefore undervalue the magnitude of the
struggle upon which it was about to enter. If, however, the
Ministry meant nothing—if they only meant to put an Act
on the statute book which was to be overlooked or not en-
forced—if they really meant to enable Roman Catholic
bishops to complete their organization, and to exercise un-
bounded control over the consciences of the Roman Cathlics,
he would tell them they would have done nothing to satisfy
the country—he would tell them they would have made
their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects the victims of a
tyranny that their Roman Catholic ancestors, in Roman
Catholic times, under a Roman Catholic Sovereign, never
would have consented to.—(Hear.) He did not agree with
the conclusion of the Noble Lord opposite, but he did coin-
cide with his argument. He considered that which was
done with regard to England was done with regard to Ire-
land—that a violation of the supremacy of the Crown in
England was equally a violation of the supremacy of the
Crown in Ireland. They could not separate that Church
which once for all was indissolubly united at the
period of the Union. If, however, Government meant
to palter with s-the question, after having roused the
strong religious feelings—he would not say preju-
dices—of England and Scotland—if they meant to bring
in some law which should only affect the shadow and yet
not touch the substance of the evil—if they did this, they
would rekindle an animosity which he should deplore—they
would rekindle a state of feeling that could only be allayed
by the final settlement of the question (we understood). He
had already said he would never consent that the Roman
Catholics should lose one jot or tittle of those civil rights
conferred on them by the Act of 1829. He knew not the na-
ture of the measure which they would shortly be invited to
consider; but whatever might be that measure, they would
approach it in the hope of finding that it realised the ex-
pectations which had been raised by the Prime Minister's
letter.---(Hear, hear.) To the Roman Catholics the free ex-
ercise of their form of worship and civil rights, he hoped, by
the proposed measure would be reconciled with the real re-
cognition of the supremacy of the Crown—a supremacy not
in words, but in fact—and a practical repudiation of such
foreign interference by either cardinal or Pope as that
which had occurred in the case of the Irish colleges, in-
stitutions which had been dared beneficial by a large
proportion of the Roman Catholice, by half the Roman
Catholics bishops, but which had been denounced by the
Pope. He trusted while the new measure would secure
the Roman Catholics their religious and civil rights, that at
the same time it would prevent such mischief in future—
would stop intermeddling by a foreign prelate, whose in-
fallibility had been deceived by false representations with
respect to matters in Ireland, and maintain for the Crown
the uncontrolled administration of affairs, temporal and civil.
He would warn the Government, if they fell short of the just
expectations of the people, and only in appearance and not
in substance gave security against wrong from the Pope and
his instruments in this country, on their heads would rest a
heavy responsibility, for they would be held to have trifled
with the feelings, and raised false hopes and expectations in
the minds of the Protestant people of England. If Govern-
ment did not speak out, he was certain a large portion of the
liberal and enlightened Roman Catholics would regret it,
and Government would have reduced this country to the po-
sition of a Roman Catholic province (we understood). He did
not hesitate to say that they must consider fully and dispas-
sionately, temperately but firmly, the whole question of the
relation in which Roman Catholics stood to the Crown. In
1829 certain securities were introduced to protect the Estab-
lished Church against Roman Catholics. He considered it
was the duty of her Majesty's Government deliberately to
examine those securities. If found to be no real securities—
however offensive it .might be to Roman Catholics—if found
to give no real security to Protestants, but merely to em-
barrass the statute books, they must be swept off at once;
the odium must not be incurred of enacting measures that
could not be used for the purposes for which they were passed.
If it were found that laws, however well intended, did not
reach the case—if encroachments not contemplated at the
time bad been made by the See of Rome or its instruments
which laws could not repress, let them make the laws
sufficiently strong. Their legislation must be equal to the
emergency.—(Hear, hear.) Government must look the
whole case in the face—they must not be content with
trifling and delusive legislation. They must understand
the whole danger that exists, and to that danger they
must apply a sufficient remedy.—(Hear, hear.) If such
be the course of the Government, no political or party
differences should prevent Government from having his
assistance and the assistance of that party with whom he
had the honour of acting.—(Hear, hear.) On the other
hand, he warned the Government, if they did not determine
to look broadly and amply at the case, it would be far better
not to attempt to deal with It 'at all—it would be far better to
submit to the last and greatest insult than to do that with
an appearance of strength which would only prove an exhi-
bition of weakness. Deal manfully and boldly with the
case, or not at all. Put on sufficient penalties against undue
aggression, and they would have the support of the country ;
palter with the question, and they would incur the contempt
of the nation at large, because they would betray their in-
competency to deal with an evil of this magnitude which
they had not hesitated to denounce. He should not move
an amendment. He should wait to see what the measure
was which her Majesty's Ministers proposed to bring in. He
trusted the question would be dealt with in a manner suited
to the occasion.—(Loud cheering.)
The Duke of RICHMOND was anxious to
draw the attention of their Lordships to the
lamentable state of distress of the agricultural
interest. The heavily taxed and overburthened Bri-
tish farmer never could compete with the foreigner.
The farmers were loyal now, but he declared to heaven
he could nut hope that they would much longer con-
tinue to be so. They would not wait until the manu-
facturing prosperity should react upon them. Many
,'f the small landowners had gone to live on
the continent, and many of the labourers had
emigrated, and it was to this that the decrease in the
number of paupers was owing. They ruined the pro-
prietors, they crushed the tenantry, and forced the la-
bourers to emigrate, in order to give way to the
cotton spinners of Manchester, who to get
money would violate every law, human and divine.
If they did not devote the surplus to the relief of the
agriculturists, they would raise such a cry as they would
not easily stop. If the agriculturists took his advice,
they never would rest satisfied until they got protection
fur British industry. With respect to Papal aggres-
sion, he had always opposed Catholic emancipation,
and now they were beginning to reap the fruits of it. Ile
was not at all surprised at what the Bishop of Rome had
done. He had seen her bishops treated in Ireland as
nobles, and he had seen the House of Commons giving
way to Roman Catholics, and he, no doubt, considered
the House of Commons represented the people
of England, while everybody in England knew that it
did no such thing.—(Hear, hear.) He denied that the
House of Commons represented the British people.
With regard to Lord J. Russell's letter, as it had never
been repudiated by any member of the Cabinet, he
considered that it represented the sentiments of the
whole Cabinet. As far as the improvement of the land
went, he would never, until protection were restored,
spend one shilling in improvements; it would be sending
good money after bad.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA considered that the
dangers which this country run during war was as no-
thing compared with the perils in which we now stand.
At that time the King, the Legislature, and the people
were Protestant, but since 1829 we have ceased to be a

Protestant country. It was true the great body of our
people was Protestant, as had been evinced by their
indignant protest against the recent aggression of the
Church of Rome. He was; for true religious liberty, and
no man would go further to secure it; but he contended that
political power w,as not religious liberty, and he could not
therefore consent to any measure which secured it to the
enemies of Protestantism. He had predicted the evils that
now befel the country at the period of the Catholic Relief
Bill, and he was sorry to find his predictions had been ve-
rified. The Noble Lord read several extracts from a work
published in 1826, to the effect thet the Pope would never
rest until Roman Catholicism had become the established
religion of the country. He knew not what measures were
intended by her Majesty's Government, but he hoped they
would be of such a character as to sustain the Protestant
faith in this country. All advances in civilization had been
made through Protestantism. The principle of expediency
had, on the contrary, in every instance failed. Whenever
the principles of the Reformation had been departed
from, national reverses had been the consequence.
The Government might depart from those principles or
it might do nothing. But a great struggle between the
principles of Protestantism and Catholicity would be the
retult, of which no man could foresee the end, and by which
the country would be brought into a most pitiable condition.
All liberality that did not rest upon sound religious opinions
was spurious, and that nation which honoured and upheld
God, God would uphold. The Protestant feeling of Eng-
land rested upon sound religious principles, and the people
of the country would rise as one man to resent the insolent
aggression upon their liberties by a foreign prelate. He
felt bound to redeem the pledge he made in 1829, that if
the anticipations he then made should be realised, and if
something efficient was not done by the Government he
would do so. If England abandoned the ground of
Protestantism, her fate was sealed as a country.
The Noble Earl referred to an instance of the in-
sidious character of the Church of Rome, in the case of a
governess who went into a family as a professing Protestant,
and remained there for five years, acting all the while on
the minds of her young charge. He was convinced Rome
had relinquished none of her pretensions; and that she was
the eAme now as in the dale of persecution. WitLi rupect t 9