The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-13 00:00:00

..a.••••••••V6OBJVC• at, auc &Jul.

by movingsa resolution to the following effect :—" That
it is the opinion of this House that the pledges given by
hie Majesty's Ministers, that the provisions of the Bill for
suppressing disturbances in Ireland should not he applied
to the collection of tithes, and that the arrears of tithes
should be got rid of, had not been fulfilled : and that the
employment of the military and police in serving civil pro-
cesses, and levying tithes, is highly unconstitutional, and
ought to be pet an end to.—(Cheers.)
Lord ALT EIORP thought, as he had already stated,
that it would have been more convenient if the Hon.
Gentleman bad refrained from entering on this subject
till after he had made his statement. The course, how-
ever, which the Hon: Gentleman had pursued, rendered
it necessary for him to address to the House such reasons
as he hoped would induce them not to concur in the
amendment of the Hon. Member. With respect to the
statement wich the Hon. Gentleman had made, that the
members of the Government had pledged themselves that
the Coercive Bill should not be used for the purpose of
collecting tithes, he did not in the least deny that such
pledges were made, both by himself and the other Mem-
bers of his Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.) It
had certainly been the intention and object of his Ma-
jesty's Government to act on this pledge. At the same
time he begged the House to recollect, that be said that
the Coercive Bill would not prevent the law from taking
its ordinary course, and that tithes would still be open to
collection, although the Coercive Bill was not to be ap
plied for that purpose in any way whatever. He did not
hesitate to say distinctly to the Hon. Gentleman, that if
in any case whatever that Bill had been applied to the
collection of tithes, he admitted it was a breach of the
pledge of his Majesty's Government, although, of course,
he did not admit that such breach was intentional on their
part.—(Hear.) Certainly, such use of the Coercive
Bill was in contradiction of the pledge which hail been
given. With respect to the case which the Honour-
able Member had stated as occurring in the neigh-
bourhood of New Ross, he admitted that if any per-
son, or any police officer, acting under the provisions
of the Coercive Bill, had induced persons to come out of
their houses, and had then arrested them for tithes, such
conduct was certainly a direct contradiction of the pledge
which had been given. With respect, however, to those
cases stated by the Hon. Gentleman, he had inquired in
the proper offices, and bad not been able to find any ac-
count of the circumstances mentioned by the Hon. Gen.
tleman. With regard to the case in which Sergeant SI) lye's
name was mentioned, and which he believed to be, in a
great measure, true, be was certainly prepared to say, that
the conduct of Sergeant Shaw on that occasion was en-
tirely unjustifiable. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to
another pledge which he had made. He bad readily con-
sented to pledge himself that the Coercive Bill should not
be applied to the collection of tithes, because he intended
to propose a measure which should render the collection
of arrears of tithes unnecessary. He was not able to re-
collect precisely the words be used, but they were to this
effect—that the measure which he contemplated proposing
for the relief of the clergy was such as would render it
unnecessary for them to institute proceedings under the
ineasere of last session for the collection of their tithes.
The Hon. Gentleman asked whether, in the mean time,
it was proposed to support the levying of tithes, and he
expressed his opinion that any attempt of that kind would
he likely to lead to bloodshed. His answer was, that
until they knew whether the new Parliament would con-
sent to the remedial measures the Government was about
to propose, they could not at once drop the collection of
tithes. He did not, however, mean to say that the Hon.
Member wanted any justification in writing as he did to
Ireland, in consequence of what he (Lord Althorp) had
said. And if it were satisfactory to the Honourable
Gentleman, he would readily admit that he was open to
no imputation of treachery or anything of the kind, for he
was perfectly justified in the statements he made, that it
was not the intention of Government to proceed in the
collection of tithes under the Bill of last session.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had said that

Government might have sent orders to stop the collection
of tithes under this Bill; but on looking into this ques-
tion, considerable difficulties arose. The Hon. Gentle-
man had said that, on the 15th May, this case had been
laid before him. It c,rfainly was so; and upon the re-
ceipt of the statements he made inquiries into their accu-
racy, and h, found that there had not been any suspen-
sion of proceedings under the Bill of last session. Older@
were immediately, on receiving the information, sent out
to suspend all further proceedings for the future. This
was about ten days ago. It might be said that time had
been lost--perhaps that was the case; but from what he
had said before, it would be clear to the House that the
pledges which the Government had made they were deter-
mita dto act up to. The proposition which he intended

to make when the House went into Committee, was such
as would render it highly improbable that any proceed-
ing would take place under the Act of last session. The
difficulty which prevented his bringing forward this
measure before still existed—viz. , that they were not
aware of the amount which would be required. But
knowing the circumstances which were daily taking place,
and the disturbed state of Ireland, he thought it better to
come forward with some general resolution, pledging
the House to take such a step as he was sure ought
to, and he hoped would, prevent any further pro-
ceedings being adopted.—(Hear.) His proposition was
this :—An advance of money, in order to take away front
the clergy the necessity of prosecutions for the arrears of
tithe of 1831, 1532, and for the tithe of the present
year—the advance to be repaid by a land tax charged
upon all lands which were liable to tithe in Ireland, and
on which no tithe had during those periods been paid.
He was sure the House would see that the effect of this
would be to render it unnecessary to prosecute for the
arrears of tithe, or to collect the tithe for the present
year. It was also proposed to exempt yearly tenantry at
will from payment of tithes after November next. By
this resolution he hoped to put an end to the irritation
now existing in Ireland, in consequence of the collection
of tithes at the present time. He had admitted the state-
ments of the Hon. Gentleman as to his pledges ; and he
had given such explanation as he was able to give, of the
conduct of his Majesty's Government in the transaction.
He hthd explained briefly the outlines of the plan, which
he would give more in detail in Committee; and be was
not aware that it was necessary for Mtn to say more, than
that he would not consent to a proposition which he could
not hut regard as a vote of very strong censure on his
Majesty's Government generally, and particularly on him
individually.—(No, no ; and Hear, hear.)
Mr MORE O'FERRALL thought the answer given
by the Noble Lord was not satisfactory. His Hon.
Friend had distinctly stated the pledges which had been
given, and the manner in which those pledges were
violated. The Noble Lord, he doubted not, was per-
sonally innocent of this violation ; but the Noble Lord
having admitted the fact, ought to have said, " It appears
that some person is grossly guilty, and I will use all the
power in his Majesty's Government to discover and punish
the offending party."—(Cheers.) Then he would have
been perfectly satisfied ; but not that he wished to bring
down the vengeance of his Majesty's Government on any
individual. No; he called on the Noble Lord to do this
with a much Letter motive, in order that the people of
Ireland might not have all the confidence they had been
inclined to place in his Majesty's Government utterly de-
stroyed.—( Hear.) Desirous as he was to place confi-
dence, and that his countrymen should place confilence,
in his Majesty's Ministers, he should certainly lose all it
this injustice were not remedied.—(Hear.) ?loath g was
so likely to destroy the last remains of it arnoegst his
country Men as the violation of a solemn pledge of this
description,—(Hear.) All that he called on the Noble
Lord to do was, a public act of justice, and punish those
who had dared to violate tbeir pledge in the manner in
which it had been violated.—(Hear.) His Hon. Friend
had hronght this subject forward with great moderation.
He had omitted many aggravating circumstances. For
instance, what was the first thing done by the agents of
the Government after the passing of the Bill, which his
Hon. Friend had supported solely on that distinct pledge,
and at so peat a risk to himself ? The very first act of
these agents was, to cover the wails sad trees of his lion.
Friend's domain with tithe proclamations.—(ll-ar.)
What treatineat was this of a man who bad esetificed
private feelings and interest for what he lielieved to be a
necessary, though a violent and unpalatable measure?
Mr.• SHEIL observed, that the accusation against Go•
vernment of having violated their pledges, in the employ-
ment of the police end of the military for the collection of
tithes, was destitute of foundation.—(Hear.)
Mr. P. FERRALL said, if he had imagined teat his
present Government would have put Ca, people
of Ireland in a worse situation than they were in before,
lie certainly simeild never have consented to the measure;
and he argued that the proceedings of the Governmeur
had certainly had that effect. The greatest oppression
arose from the conduct of lay impropriators. The people
might ask what the reformed Parliament had done. What
would be the answer? The House passed the Irish Coer-
cive Bill.—(Great confusion.)
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN was of opinion that tie
peace and prosperity of Ireland depended upon the extinc-
tion of tithes, Tee number of the cases of imprisonment
for small turns under the Act of last session had been
very great. Fourteen or fif een thousand persons had
been imprisoned for sums under sixpence, and a gre at
number had been subjected to the penalties of the Act of
last session for pima of Qd, and 2itl. For We own part,