The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-15 00:00:00

H 0 USE OF COMMONS, FEB. H.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at five o'clock, when the first
motion brought up. Was for an account of Exchequer Bills.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM moved for a Committee of Inquiry
into the laws authorising the impressment of seamen, on th,
4th of March.
Colonel EVANS. presented a petition from the inhabitants
of Westminster, praying for the repeal of the house and win.
dow taxes.
Mr. KENNEDY moved for a copy of the names of the sti-
pendiary magistrates appointed to the various police-offices in
the metropolis—their dates of appointment, hours of attendance,
places of residence, occupation—whether called to the bar, or
what other profession or trade occupied in.
REPEAL OF TAXES.

The SPEAKER left the Chair, and the House resolved itself
into a Committee of Supply, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair.
Lord ALTHORP rose and said, it is now my intention to
call the attention of the House to my views of the present state
of the finances of the country. I hope the House will excuse
my entering into any detailed statements at the period
of the year at which I speak. lam now about to speak as to
the prospect,: of the financial year, which the House knows will
not terminate for two months after the present period ; and,
although I thus early call the attention of the House to
it, it will be quite impossible to do so unless in a general
manner.—(Hear, hear.) It will be quite in vain to state
what is to be expected dtiring the year. It may be
asked why I should have taken a different course this year from
what I took last year. During the last year there were
various reasons which induced me to think I ought not to intro.
duce this subject to the consideration of Parliament until after
the commencement of the financial year. One of my reasons
was, that if I had made my statement at the corresponding
period of.the last year, it would have been necessary to state
to the House that the surplus of the revenue over
the expenditure did not amount to more than
700,0004 If I had made that statement at
the end of the year, I should have had to announce a much
larger sum, and I could not have proposed those reductions,
which lam quite sure at a later period I could have done,

, without deducting more than I conceived to be pru-
,. dent from the revenue of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
1.14 therefore thought it was better to delay that statement
after the commencement of the financial year. I see no
nelson to expect that any very considerable change will take
place *the amount of the revenue to the end of the present
ouatrteniHear, hear.) Before I enter upon what that
_surplus revenue Has been, I wish to call the atten-
-tion of the House to the state of the finances, and
... nat. has been :he balance of the three last years. At the end
.af the year 18n/i the amount of the balance in favour of the
, .
: ary was '2,14-00,1/., but the House will recollect that se.
t'ci
; al faxes to a much larger amount had been reduced during
the prt.ce.ling year, warren did not come into operation until
he .succeeding year, IC3I. I stated at the time to a
et Hun. I::_ntlernan, whom I do not see now in his place,
• concurred withine in my view, that if I had proposed
,ctioos At)* eV of :1 e year 1831, instead of a ba-
.914,0001., tfler :Jr:lance would have been only
' ,elt it righefto 4,iftose,at that period a conside-
"f taseS,: id, .'s eo.isequence of that reduc-
.l.otV th( 1831, there was, as I
. lfiket,,y .. , 0004110/.—(Hear, hear.)
an.e.ci at that redo-'" because I felt
^es of th- such, that the
-er •.creased during
...:. nted to 1,240,000!.
• . , ..,f taxes that were reduced
stlcipated, the revenue recovered
se, lan year, instead of there being a
--- %.cY 01 ',, ' ' !", was a surplus of 1,487,0001.
hair?, 12.• ke.':. u.....- r . - considerable amount of
e4is. Pdtssi ..a. y,- ax- :' ,a. , .3-2 the amount of taxes
rellealed vva,' 1.,1.901,1:1001. awl , , ,Z 3. L.. ! amount repealed was
1,545,0001. When I say repealea, I it,ean the amount that the
taxes had produced in the previous years, and not what I estima-
ted that they would produce ; but to that amount the country
was relieved. During these two years there was a total re-
duction of 3,335,000/. Sir, notwithstanding this reduction,
I am happy to say, that by the balance.sheet up to
the sth of January last, the surplus appears larger than
it was in April last year,—that is to say, that it gives
a surplus of upwards of I,sl3,oool.—(Cheers.) I feel confi-
dent that it must be satisfactory to the House to know, that
notwithstanding this continued reduction of taxes, such has
been the improvement in other branches of taxation, that the
surplus of the revenue is so much over the expenditure
—(Cheers)—and I do not sea why we should not expect further
continuance of that improvement.—(Cheers.) I.hepe, therefore,
- I need not anticipate any loss to the revenue from these
circumstances.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, in addition to all this, I
will state in round numbers that the estimates required
this year, will be reduced from what they were in the last year
by half a million.—(Cheers.) I hope that Hon. Gentlemen
will recollect that during the last two years there
hasbeena considerable reduction in the estimates, and that they
will not think we have been remiss in our duty of rill
further reducing them this year. This will of course raise the
;amount of the surplus revenue over the expenditure from
1,400,0001. to 2,000,0001. But there is another source from
which I have a right to expect a considerable increase of reve-
nue, without the imposition of any fresh burdens on the
people. The House will recollect that by the arrangement
with regard to the renewal of the East India Company's
charter, the tax on tea was altered, and it was no
longer to remain an ad valorem duty, which would render
it exceedingly difficult to be collected from the free traders.
Therefore the change made so far as I can calculate, namely,
from last June, would place the revenue on the same footing as
the ad valorem duty. lam quite aware that it must be evident
to the House that, under any circumstances, the consumption
would not be lessened, and the effect would be that there
would be a larger Rroportion of duty at the ad valorem duty.
The amount of the duty per pound upon tea would not be
greater than it was at the period to which I have alluded. The
effect of this change will be material in other points of view.
When an increased quantity of tea was brought into
the market theprice was diminished, and the duty was also di.
mashed, but it would be evident that under the present system,
when the amount of tea was increased there would be
a corresponding increase of revenue.—(Hear, hear, and
isheers.) It might be said that if the revenue should
pe increased by the amount of tea, that would be a
very strong reason for reducing the duty. Looking to the pre-
sent state of the country, and to the taxes to which the
attention of the Government has been ca'led, I am
not prepared to say that the reduction of the duty
upon tea was one of those which it was intended to effect.'
—(Hear, hear.) At any rate, from the cessation a the mono-
soirpsporttletift the effect would be the same as if we had
reeteeed the duty. This will be the case next year,
as, instead of the East India Company bringing to their
euarterly` sales 8,000,0001b5. of tea, it is the intention of
tiovernmeiit in disposing of this tea to bring 9,000,0001b5. of
it into tie maw'sat every quarterly period. It is manifestly
au , liiec:. of iric, qtattce, though unconnected with the revenue,
th:st the stock of 'tea in the hands of the East India Company
, 'lei be reduced as far as is consistent with the free sale
. far. as it will not interfere with the general

the commencement of the spring of 1835,
Alen ttie will be thrown open, it is desirable
on .il such grounds to increase the Revenue ;
but on the general principles of trade, it would not be pro-
per to inter ere with the private trader. According to
the ann.unt of the quantity of tea sold, the duty was
Ate the three first quarterly sales which had
t, ',en :dace, Mice had been given, and I have no doubt that,
hi.it sales effected by the Boar 1 of Control, in addi-
tion to that sold by the private trader, the quantity will
amount to 36,000,000 ib. during the year ; and the amount
of duty being 3,300,0001., will amount to 3,900,0001
This will give, therefore, an addition to the revenue
(7! 600,0001. I have stated what is likely to be the revenue of
the e'untry during the year, and I will now state what will be
ot, additional calls upon it. The main additional call to which I
allude, is the money to be provided for the payment of the interest
of the loan Lo be raised as a grant for the West India Proprie.
h..r.) That loan is 20,000,0001., as the House
knows ; and I think i cannot estimate the interest of it at less
than 800,0001. 1 have stated that the surplus of the revenue
yvould be 2,600,000/. ; deducting from this 800,0001., which is
pecessary for the payment of the interest granted to the West
jfidia proprietors, there will be left a surplus of 1,800,0001. I
say at onee, what no man who ever heard me state my opi-
nioniis this HOWBean doubt, that having a surplus of 800,000/.,
I should calculate upon that to make a considerable reduction. I
hope the House will not think I do too little if, at this early period,
I propose only a moderate reduction, because the House will
see, by looking back, how important it is to attend to this prin-
ciple ; I have shown, by not attending to it, as ought to have
been done, in 1831, that the effect was a large reduction in the
future revenue. I really do believe from what I see and
know of the resources of this country, that the House may, if
they have patience, and do not make too large an inroad upon
the revenue at once, year after year, gradually relieve the
country.—(Hear.) I hope, therefore, that the House will
not press for any thing beyond what I propose.—(Hear.)
There is no reason whatever that I should not state
my Intention to reduce the taxes 1,200,0001. I must say that it
is impossible for me not to congratulate the House upon a
point upon which I have already touclicd.—(Hear, hear.)
This country and this House, for the purpose of doing
a ifreat act of Justice, and setting an example which
I hope and trust will be imitated in other countries,
we', prepared to come forward with the immense sacrifice of
.2.0,00,,000/. for the abolition of West Indian slavery ; and yet,
potwithstanding that sacrifice, a considerable reduction of taxes
pay be AM de.-,(Loud cheers.) This must De satisfactory,

gss.
aot only rift pibveo.the Rovre!.ful resources of the country,
but alto to know and fihd that the country is ready to
make that sacrifice, and that it is found able to perform
this act of humanity without any additionats,yressure of
taxation.—(Cheers.) I cloac44uppose the Houselkill be very
,nltirp surprised at what lam about to at NAt igitg end of
thelast session, I intimated pretty str y, that if the
revenue would bear it, I would this session propose the
repeal of the house tax.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It is my inten-
tion to suggest to the House that proposition now, but while I
do it, I beg to say that on many points with respect to this tax
false impressions have gone abroad. It has been stated
that it is a war tax, and that it is a breach of faith
to continue it during the time of peace. But instead of its
being a war tax, by the Act of 1808 by which it was in-
creased, it was expressly made a tax for a permanent addi-
tion to the revenue. I need not also say that in many
other respects, if I look at this question simply as a financial
question, I think there are other taxes that it would be more
desirable to repeal than this.—(Loud cheers.) But, Sir, al-
though this is the case, I have stated myself, and I must say
I feel it very strongly, that it is one of the ingredients in the
impropriety of this tax that it is extremely unpopular.-
-(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Taking all,these circumstances into
consideration, I do think the best suggestion that I can
make to the House is, that this tax should now be repealed, but
the House must recollect that this tax absorbs nearly the surplus
of 1,800,000/.—(Hear.) I hope, therefore, that the House, if it
agrees with me that this is the tax that ought to be repealed,
will not press me to any larger reduction. Ido not Essen
to say that I should not be inclined to reduce one or two taxes
to which I will not now allude in preference, and that
if the revenue continues in the same state as it
is, I hope to be able to propose them.—(Cries of "Hear.")
What I mean to say is this, that I hope and trust the House
will, if they should think proper to reduce the house tax,
support me in resisting reduction of any other large amount of
taxes. With this view, it is not my intention to introduce anyßill
for the repeal of the house taxes until I see how certain motions,
notices of which have been given, are disposed of.—(Hear, and
laughter.) I shall take care not to reduce the taxes until lam
quite sure of my substitute. Now, I know that in discussions
respecting the house tax, the window tax is constantly united
with it. Sir, the house and window tax es are both taxes on dwell-
ing-houses ; but the objections I have always heard urged so
strongly to the house, do not apply tothe window tax. It is not a
tax which bears unfairly, at least I do not apprehend it does, on
any particular class of houses—though it does apparently on
the lower class, and on houses in towns rather than those in
the country. Now, Sir, I should state, with respect to the
window tax, that since 1822, the amount of the window tax,
reduced, has been not less than 1,466,3731., and the amount at
present received from the window-duty is 1,273,0001. Sir, it
is impossible, if we have any regard to the public credit, that
we should add to the reduction of the house-tax that •of the
window tax. Now, I should like on this subject to refer
the House back to that year which, with all economical
reformers, has always been considered the golden year—l mean
1792. I shall compare what the tax at that time on dwelling_
houses produced, and what they will produce when the house tax
is reduced. In 1792 the house and window tax amounted to
1,129,0001., and at present, the house tax being repealed,
the only tax remaining will be the window tax, which will
amount to 1,200,0001. Therefore, at the present time, dwel-
ling-houses will not produce to the revenue, notwithstanding
their enormous increase, a I,rger amount of taxes than theydid
in 1792. I therefore do think that any demand for the reduction
of the window,in addition to the house tax,will not be reasonable.
Now, I must fairly admit, and I dare say I shall be told, that
in the proposition I now make, I am giving relief to the trading
districts, while I have admitted, and Ministers have ad-
mitted, that the landed interests require relief. Sir, I cannot
deny the truth there will be in this statement. But it will be for the
House to decide whether it will adopt the suggestion I have
thrown out, or reject it, for the purpose of obtaining a reduc-
tion of taxes in other ways. They say they are pressed upon,
not so much from the public taxation of the country, as from
local taxation. Now, Sir, if this is the case, it shows that
Ministers are not neglecting the landed interests, when they are
about to bring in measures to relieve them from tithes.
(Immense cheering.) The gentlemen who cheer me so
warmly are of course perfectly aware of what I mean—of
course I do not mean to abolish tithes altogether, but to relieve
the landed interest, and more particularly the occupiers of the
soil, irons a source of very great vexation and annoyance—it is
to relieve that class from a very great burden, by a
fair commutation of tithes, which I am sure will be felt as a
very great relief by every one connected in any way with land.
Now, Sir, the other point to which the Government have
pledged themselves to apply their attention, is the amendment
of the poor laws. Now, if we are able to propose measures
which will be satisfactory to the House upon those points, then
I contend that we shall give more relief to the landed interest,
than by the reduction of some taxes, which apparently press
more immediately upon it. Then, Sir, with respect to Ireland,
Ido not mean at present to state what measures I have in con-
templation, but the Government have one of a financial nature
under their consideration, which I trust will be so ar-
ranged as not to lead to any reduction of the Revenue,
yet at the same time afford very great relief to that country.
More, at the present time, I do not feel it would be desirable to
say. Sir, I have now stated the general views of the Govern-
ment upon the financial state of the country. At the outset I
stated that I did not intend to go into any details, but intended
merely to bring under the view of the House, and to lay before
the country, the ge.mral financial affairs of the country, as
they at present stand. Having now done that, Ido not know
that I have more to address to the House. The Noble Lord
then concluded by moving, that a supply of 14,000,0001. be
granted to his Majesty for_the service of the present year.
Mr. ROBINSON then rose, but in consequence of the con..
fusion, and noise from Members leaving the House, it was impos-
sible to hear a single sentence of the Honourable Member's
statement. We, however, understood him to say that
although he was free to confess that there were some
points about the statement of the Noble Lord which were
satisfactory, yet, taking it as a whole, he did not look
-upon it in so favourable a light as he had anticipated he should.
He considered that the Noble Lord ought to reduce taxation to
the whole amount of the means he had at his disposal. With re.
spect to the proposed reduction of house duty, hemust say, that
he differed with the Noble Lord in his reduction of that duty.
Although he agreed with him in the view he took of the reduc-
tion of taxation—that it would be impossible, without the sub-
stitution of some new tax, to reduce both the houseand win-
dow duty together—yet he must say that the proposition
of the Noble Lord to reduce only the house duty was not a
very flattering measure. He must say, also, with respect to
the house tax, that he had always considered it, as well as the
window tax, unobjectionable in point of principle.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) They were taxes, if properly
Proportioned, which bore upon the property of the country
They were taxes which did not apply to the lower classes, and
therefore he must say that he regretted that the Noble Lord, if
he could not take off both taxes, had not turned his
attention to some mode by which, preserving the
principle of those taxes, 'he might have collected the
whole amount by some more fair mode of payment.
He (Mr. Robinson), considered that no great relief was afforded
to the lower classes by the taking off such a tax, while many
vexatious ones remained, which might be removed for thebetter
alleviation of their condition.—(Hear.) Had the six hundred
thousand pounds which were to spare, been previously distributed
through t. e reductions of other taxes, great relief would have
beeen afforded. The Noble Lord was doubtless anxious to re-
lieve the people ; but petty, remedial measures should not be ap-
plied to a system, in itself unfair, and pressing grossly on the
people. The statement of the Noble Lord would afford no satis_
faction, he was sure ; and many difficulties would be brought on
Ministers, from the fact of so little being done, after the
considerate expressions put into his Majesty's mouth, for the
deteriorated and depressed state of certain classes.—(Loud
cheers, during which the remaining part of the Hon. Gentle-
man's sentence was lost.) He would now sit down ; he did
dot with to occupy too much of the time of the House. He
could not refuse his meed of praise to the Ministry for the
fair and candid statement of the estimates.

Lord ALTHORP begged to observe that the house tax
was a large tax and would be of corresponding advantage to
the country by its abolition. The other matters were of minor
bulk to that.

Mr. COBBETT said, that after the statement made by
the Noble Lord, his only surprise was that he had made
any statement at all. It did not appear that there was
any good reason for it now, except to stop them from asking
the repeal of taxes. He stands up to see how many will
cheer his statement—whether we will continue to bear
those burdens, for indeed he is taking nothing from
them at all, and then he will proceed to refuse all repeal of
taxes. The Noble Lord says that he will repeal the house tax.
He agreed with him that that tax was not very oppressive—
that it was a very proper tax for the exigencies of the state.—
(Hear.) Were he in the Noble Lord's place, he would not
have reduced the house tax, and although he might be a popu-
larity hunter, as the Hon. Member for Hull had called him, if
he were in the Noble Lord's place he would not have done so
after what had taken place. It was an encouragement to the
people to proceed in the same way again. The Hon. Gent. said
he had never heard him (Mr. C.) recommend the non-payment
of taxes, either in writing or speaking. He encouraged them
not to resist, but to use passive resistance. They wanted
to have the malt tax repealed, and he hoped it would be done
He had already prepared the cutting of young hops—(Laugh-
ter)—and this he would say, that no excisemen should ever
touch those hops.—(Hear.) He wished to restore the good
old custom of having a little malthouse attached to
every farm-house.—(Laughter.) He was determined that he
would make malt before next Michaelmas day. The Noble
Lord said that he will send excisemen to seize it. Will he?
(Great laughter).—He (Mr. Cobbett) would not allow them
to touch it. If not, he says he will send soldiers. He (Mr.
C.) would plant a battery of barrels of beer in the way,
—and if one true drop of English blood was in those soldiers
they would never act. The people would make malt themselves
and the Noble Lord encouraged them to make malt, and the
doing so was a great deal better than the resistance to pay
the house and window taxes.—(Hear, hear.) He would not,
however, follow the Not•le Lord through the whole of his
topics, for they must all come over again. He had
cheered the Noble Lord when he said he intended to relieve
the landed interest. Did it look well when his Majesty had
spoken of the distress of the agricultural interest,
that the Noble Lord should specify no plan of relieving it Y
The Noble Lord said that the landed interest should be
greatly relieved, and he adverted to the system of tithes.
He (Mr. Cobbett) knew that the Noble Lord meant a com-
mutation of tithes. Did the Noble Lord mean that
the land, would render -less to the tithe-owner than it now
renderel!—(Hear, hear.) It was not the name of the thing
but its substance,— (Hear, hear.) If the commutation

'"eesss.l•2
ansou'Etesd Miss much as the tithes liss name,iirre would be no
relief it- all; and if it did not wrnount Sks IQ much
it would be taking away part of the Property of thNitige owner
in a very rude manner, and without assigning any reason.
Alen it would be a robbery, a confiscation of property,
and the Noble Lords wilt, au his ingenuity could not
put a different interpretation upon it —(Hear.) Taking
a part of the property of the tithe owner, without it was ex.
tended to other classes of the community, particularly the fund.
hollers, would be a confiscation of the property of the tithe
owner, which the House ought not to sanction.—(Hear, hear.)
One of these two things must take place, either that there would
be no real relief, particularly to the occupiers of the land—for
how were they to be re: ieved by taking away tithes and poor rates ?
—or itwould fall on the lower classes. If the occupiers had on
the average leases of four years, they would be the better for
the measure during that period, but after that it would come into
the hands of the landlord, and then, instead of being the bet-
ter, they would be a great deal the worse, and naturally so,
for if he were a landlord himself, they would get worse bargains
from him.—(Laughter.) There was another mode of relief,—
they were told there was to be a change in the poor laws. Was
it to give the labourers less than they received at present? No.
Their intentions were very kind—they intended to make them
more comfortable, but somehow they meant to take something
away from them. They must have something, somehow or other.
Did they mean to lessen the relief that was now to be obtained?
They dare not attempt to do it. They would not venture to
carry into effect the recommendation of the Poor Law Com-
missioners, or to leave the people to feed upon potatoes
and salt, or upon garbage like dogs.—(Cries of " Oh, oh I") Ile
did not say they were going to do so—he merely put the case
hypothetically; but he could tell them, instead of relief, it
would add most enormously to the suffering of the land. The
country gentlemen knew this as well as he did. The labourers
belonged to the land, and if they took anything from them,
how would they relieve the farmer or the landlord ?—(Hear,
hear.) There might be some necromancy in it—some
conjuration, or some cavil about words—but if they
attempted to do such a thing, he would tell them
that, instead of being relief, it would be the greatest curse
the House could inflict—it would increase the dissensions that
now existed in the agricultural districts tenfold. He could
see nothing in the speech of the Noble Lord, except so
far as it was intended to prevent them coming and asking
for relief, and if that was what was intended, he must say it
was a very good way to stop them ; but he could assure the
Noble Lord he should like to hear a full explanation in what
way it was intended to relieve the working classes, in the
changes about to be made in the tithes and poor rates, partici'.
larly In the former, which he could not comprehend.
Sir R. PEEL said the speech of the Noble Lord had afforded
much information, but it did notput them in possession of those
facts which were necessary, before they could enter into details.
He would only refer to the most prominent topics of the Noble
Lord's speech ; and, in the first place, he was bound to say—
looking at the great reduction that had been made in
the expenditure—at least in that portion which ad-
mitted of it—(Loud cheers)—for there was a very great
mass of expenditure, beyond reduction—(Cheers)—he
would say, that after the reductions that had been made, and
successfully matte, the reductions now stated by the Noble
Lord were as much as could really be expected.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Lord considered himself in possession
of a surplus of 2,600,000 L, and that surplus was accounted
for in the following manner:—First, there was a surplus
in the Exchequer of 1,500,0004 comparing the revenue
of last year with the total expenditure. The Noble Lord
calculated uposi 500,000/. as a prospective reduction, which,
however, he could not rely upon, it being only temporary,
depending upon the estimates of the year and liable to be
affected in various ways. Still there was a saving of 500,0001.
in this year. The other item constituting the total
sum was the 600,0001. upon tea. He could not see
with what certainty an increase of the revenue to thatamount
was to be expected. The Noble Lord said it was by throwing
upon the market 9,000,0001b5. of tea instead of 8,000,0001b5,
but was the Noble Lord satisfied that the public
would take these 9,000,0001b5. ? The public might
expect that, in consequence of the measures past last
session, there would be considerable reduction in the price of
tea, and they would not be satisfied unless such a reduction took
place. They expected a reduction of price corresponding with
a reduction of duty. The Noble Lord calculated that he could
repeal taxes to the amount of 1,200,0001., including the
800,0001. which was to provide for the interest on
the loan granted to the West India proprietors. He
wished to ask the Noble Lord whether there were not
other items to be provided for corresponding with this
800,0004, and he particularly alluded to the grant of
1,000,000/. that was past last year for the clergy of
Ireland. There was no reference made to this in
the Noble Lord's speech, nor was there any permanent
provision made for it although it was founded upon a vote of
this House. The Noble Lord, in his opinion, was right in re-
fusing to admit any further reductions than the 1,200,000!.
in his (Sir R. Peel's) view of the case, for the reduction
would not be consistent with the maintenance of public credit.
He would give no opinion of the nature of the taxes that
ought to be removed. He deeply regretted that the Noble Lord
proprosed no remission of taxation affecting the agricultural
interest. No part of the present remission would directly affect
the agriculturist—no doubt it would be an indirect relief to
him. But when he considered the decided proof of agricul-
tural distress which had been established before Commit.
tees of that House, and when he saw the willing sub-
mission of the agriculturist to the law—when he read
the King's speech, admittir.g the distress they suffered, and
which, at the same time severely deprecated excitement and
disobedience to the law, he could not but lament that th
practical result was, that the obedient party, namel
the agricultural party, was to receive no relief, bt
that the party who had manifested a disposition Oa resist
evade the law, was to receive all the relief. At the same time,
supposing 1,200,000/. to be all that could be remitted, there
could not but be a difficulty in determining in what
mode the rel,"` suld best be afforded to the agriculturist;
still, if effectual relief could be afforded to any party, the agri-
cultural party was the most entitled to it. He would not consent
to relieve the agricultural interest at the expense of the public
credit ; but if a certain sum could be reduced, the first claim upon
that reduction was that of the agricultural party. With re-
gard to any proposition respecting the tithes in lre'and, his
Majesty's recommendation was, that such adjustment
should take place affecting all classes as it would benefit
without producing any injury to any class of
his subjects. If in Ireland no adjustment of
tithes should be attempted that should not be consistent with
the rights of property, which it was the duty of the House to
preserve, he hoped even the Honourable Member for Old.
ham would be of opinion that no commutation of tithes
in this tranquil country should be made, that would at
all break in upon the rights of property. He had voted for
the principle of commutation, and he could see no argument
against that commutation, provided the House could see its
way clearly to remove an oppression without doing injustice.
Did not the Noble Lord know, that in many parts of this coun-
try contentment prevailed with respect to tithes ? He did
not mean to say that they would not be glad to be relieved from
them, but they feared the consequence of commutation would
be that they would be placed under a harder task-master ; but
with respect to the occupying tenants, he did not think commu-
tation could relieve them. When did the Noble Lord expect
any well adjusted system would be brought to operate
upon the agricultural districts? The pressure of the poor
laws was as great in towns as in villages.—(Cries of " No," and
"Hear.") He repeated that in manufacturing towns, in periods
of commercial distress, the burden of the poor laws was as great
as in villages. If any benefit was to be derived from a new system,
it should be equal both to commercial and agricultural districts.
The Noble Lord had said nothing in the course of his speech with
respect to a very slight alleviation of the burden to which
lands were subjected, to which he had formerly adverted.—
(Hear, hear.) He hoped the Noble Lord intended to ad-
' here to his promise, and go as far as he could respecting
the surcharges upon horses employed for agricultural purposes,
and give them substantial relief by removing the tax altogether,
that is, if the horses were employed for agricultural purposes
alone. He did not wish to put towns in opposition to
vil-
lages, because he thought, by promoting the prosperity
of the one, they would advance that of the other—(Hear, hear)
--but he did hope the Noble Lord would find some means for
alleviating that distress which had been admitted in his Ma.
jesty's speech, and that this session would not be allowed to pass
without the Noble Lord suggesting some measure fully adequate
Ito that purpose.
Lord A LTHORP said, as he had stated before, he would
again say that at the end of last session, before any of the
circumstances to which the Hon. Gentleman had just alluded
had been mentioned, he had given him intimation
that if the revenue should furnish him with the means,
he was bound to repeal those taxes.—(Hear, hear.) He
would say one word with respect to what he said
at that time, that great pecuniary loss and inconvenience
had occurred in the collection of the tithes, but in many
instances the occupiers of the lands compromised and actually
paid a larger amount than that to which they were liable.
Mr. O'CONNELL said of the 1,200,0001. to be reduced,
Ireland was not to be relieved one farthing—(Hear,
hear, hear)—but the Noble Lord had some plan in store
for Ireland; that plan was that Ireland was to pay as much as it
did at present, and to be relieved from the balance and diffe-
rence.—(Laughter.) What, did the Noble Lord think that he
was paying the Irish people a compliment, by telling them
they woul.l be relieved, while they would be made to pay as
much money as they did before? Talk of blunders, in.
deed, this was an Irish mode of giving relief.—(Laughter.)
The Noble Lord had some schemes in his mind for
the relief of Ireland, which he (Mr. O'C.) was afraid
would turn out to be like the story told of the Irishmen
who had his bag of potatoes to get home—he put them
on his horse, but as he could not carry them, he then took
them on his own back. So it was now to be—the burden was
to be taken from the back of one, and put on that of another,
or perhaps it was only to be moved a little further up on the
shoulders of the same horse.—(Cheers.) Although
some vexatious modes of raising the tithes had been
removed, the poor payers had been put in a worse
situation, for before the Act of last session the clergyman
could only seize his one tenth. By thlt Act the landlord
who stow paid the tithes, had the other nine-tenths, which
he could seize upon for the same tithes as the. other. On that
ground he did not think the Commutation would do any
thing for England. Sure he was, it had not done so for
Ireland. What was the statement of the Noble ,Lord
as regarded the reduction of taxation ? Why, it all amounted
to a mere peddling sum of twelve hundred thousand pounds.
What was that to do towards relieving the country ? Would that
do any thing, even for the people of the towns? But then
came to be considered the state of the agriculturists. Did

any one deny that they were suffering in England? Could
any one deny that they were doing so in Ireland 2—(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") If the Noble Lord wished to re-
lieve the country—to reliave all classes —let him turn
to the debt, let him reduce the interest upon it from 3 to
21 per cent , and by that he would at once save 411 millions. It
might be said that that would not be accordant with
public faith, but he contended that it would be no
violation of it whatever, and the people were entitled to it. He
protested against the species of relief held out to Ireland; indeed
he might say he protested against the whole of the Noble Lord's
statement, for it did not go far enough for him. Let the Noble
Lord at once take off the four millirms and a half, and then he
might do justice to all classes, by reducing the house and win-
dow tax, the malt tax, and others.
Mr. HUME said he did not intend to trouble the House, and
would not have done so, had it not been for the extraordinary
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet below (Sir R. Peel).
First of all he would touch upon the statements made by
the Noble Lord—they were plain enough. No person could
mistake his meaning. The house seemed to cheer at the
paltry reduction of 500,000/.—(Hear, hear)—and the
Hon. Baronet said that that was quite enough. Now, how
stood the case ? Last year, the estimates were 14,600,0001., and
this year they were to be reduced to 14,100,0001. That was all
the paltry reduction offered to the peeple. When the Noble Lord
spoke of the year 1792 he (Mr. Hume) pricked up his ears,
but it was only to be miserably disappointed. Some comparisons
were drawn between that year and the present ; but was the
House aware that the whole sum required to be taken for
the payment of offices they were now called upon to pay, was
then only 4,800,0001., but in the present year more than three
times theamount was required ? Were the people of England
to to remain quiet under that—would they suffer the window tax
to continue ? He for one hoped they would not, at all events
be hoped they would not cease to petition, and exert them-
selves
Whkyee the utmost, until
thearm
they
stabeeyolbistnamineen. Why
should relief.h
He would take, for am
y
ear should the people of Ireland be subject to the payment of
1,500,000/. for the support of that establishment ?—(Hear,
h
p up
itwatsnabtecawuhsieehthewGasovehronsmtiele t
nt
oweredeter-
minedthege
. )
to
neral feeling of the country, the Church Establishment—
(Hear, hear)—and in order to do that, they were obliged to keep
a garrison in Ireland the same as if she was a subjugated
and conquered country. The House and the Government
might save to the public no less a sum than 900,0001., if they
would only treat Ireland as she ought to be treated, and
abolish the Church Establishment, except so far as it
was necessary for the wants of the people. If that
was done, there would then be an ample fund out
of which the loss occasioned to the revenue from the reduction
of the house and window taxes might be made good. He saw,
however, very plain how the thing stood; there was a show of
doing a great deal, but very little was done. In his opinion,
the statements of the Noble Lord were altogether unsatisfac-
tory and not such as the country had a right to expect. From
a statement which he had of the Noble Lord's, made
in the course of last session, it appeared that the
amount of the reduction of the house and window duty
either in January or June last was 2,500,0001. He would
now come to the Hon. Baronet—he complained that Govern-
ment had not attended to the landed interest.—(Hear,
hear.) With respect to that he must say that the prop°.
sition of the Noble Lord was most unfair and extravagant.
The Noble Lord had said that the landed interest was sorely
oppressed by this and that exaction. Now what was the situ-
tuation of the landed interest ? (Hear, hear, hear.)
Why, they had a monopoly at the present moment of the
food of the country.—(Hear.) This was destroying and ruining
the farmer, and, in consequence of the manner in which the.
concerns of the country were carried on, the currency of the
country was diminished in order to supply deficiencies by which
the whole commercial system of the country was disarranged.
They were relieved the other day from insurance, and what right
had the landed interest more than any other to obtain such ad-
vantages ? He had often heard a great deal said of liberty and
equality. but he wished to applythe words in their proper meaning,
which was the administration of property. As used now they-
were outraged. Through the country the landed interest
enjoyed a monopoly of butter, cheese, bacon, cattle—(Loud
laughter)—and even the diminutive article of eggs. They were
the favoured few ; all the others were their serfs, labouring for
them. He would appeal to the Noble Lord not to attend so
much to that interest; if he did, he would be doing an injus-
tice. He (Mr. Hume) would put it to the Hon. Baronet and
the House, whether it was fair to afford any farther relief ?
Regarding the subject of tithes, he would say that they were
the first bar and impediment to the improvement of land, by
preventing the outlay of surplus capital. No measure was
more useful than the commutation of tithes, and he hoped
that no exertions would be omitted to secure it as soon
as possible. He would ask the Honourable Member for
Oldham, who he had no doubt took great pleasure in
his cabbage-garden, whether he should like a head of
cabbage, or a head of celery, or a bunch of turnips, to be
taken from its produce? He was sorry that he had not
heard an expression of approbation on the subject of the
commutation of tithes ; and he should be much surprised if
the Right Hon. Baronet could show him a petition from any
county in England, extensively signed, praying for- no com-
mutation of tithes. Let Scotland be looked to, and they would find
that capital was applied, and a corresponding improvement was
the result, in a double and treble degree; while land lay waste
in England, on account of the injurious operation of tithes ; in
fact, every inch of ground was improved in Scotland by the
surplus capital that was laid out. He differed from him on
the subject of poor laws ; they were good in principle, but the
application was attended with vicious effects. Remove the
cause of he degradation of the lower classes by placing them
in a better condition; and a general benefit would result to
every grade in society, landlords as well as others.
He did not know whether it was consistent with the views of
the Noble Lord to take from one class and give to an-
other. He hoped that nothing would prevent the Noble Lord
from coming down to that House with a measure for a reformed
system of poor laws ; and he trusted that nothing would in-
duce the Right Hon. Baronet to threw any difficulties in the
way of such a measure, as the carrying through the great
work of a reformation in the poor laws. There was
one observation of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
which he particu'arly wished to notice before he sat
down. The Hon. and Learned Member had stated that the
landed proprietors had had their incomes reduced one-third,
while the fund-holders received the full amount of their
incomes. But did not the Hon. and Learned Member know
that the Government securities had been reduced in the same
proportion. The Ministers had done it fairly, and deserved
credit for it, and yet the man who formerly received five
pounds, received now only three pounds ten shillings ? Was not
that, he would ask, a reduction equal to any reduction
that had taken place in the rents? • He (Mr. Hume) was
anxious to give landholders and fundholders and all parties fair
play. The landlordtook his chance in the market forthe value
of his land, and the fundholder also took his chance in the
market. It was unfair, then, to say that one party had been ag-
grieved at the expense of another. He (Mr. Hume) thought
that no monopoly should be kept up which gave an advantage to
the landed interest. If the case was fairly considered, it must
be admitted that the landed interest was the one most favoured
by law.—(Hear.) The landed proprietor by law could make
him (Mr. Hume) pay eightpcnce for his loaf of bread instead of
sixpence. He called upon the Right Hon. Baronet not to pro-
reed further in favour of the interests of that class; let him
be prepared by next month to do an act of justice to
the country that would be of more advantage than all
the rest—the repeal of the odious corn laws.—(Hear.) He must
now return to the Noble Lord. He was very much disappointed
that he did not intend to make very considerable changes in
the commercial relations of this country. With respect to Bor-
deaux, within the last week, it had been pointed out that the
country laboured under great disadvantages, from the restrictive
Acts which had been passed at different times, relative
to the exportation of wines, &c. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Perhaps the Noble Lord would have no objection to lay on the
table of the House a copy of the convention between France
and England.—(Hear, hear.) He presumed there could be no
objection to that course, particularly as the commissioners who
had been appointed had made their reports, and the Chambers
of France had introduced a bill to remove some, though a
small number, of the objections which had existed to the com-
mercial intercourse between the two countries. During the
last twelvemonths the commercial affairs in the two countries
had become much changed, and there was a more general de.
sire to extend their commercial intercourse. He had there-
fore expected that the Noble Lord would to-night have entered
into some details upon that subject. He also had expected
that the Noble Lord would have proposed to reduce the
duties on the cheaper and weaker wines, and to have placed an
ad valorem duty upon them. There were millions of gallons of
Moselle wines at this moment unsold, and if the ports of
England were opened, every man that pleased might be able
to drink his wine at Is. per bottle.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
He was prepared to prove that statement. Let those who chose
to drink the stronger and more expensive wines do so, but
let the humbler classes have the cheaper wines, at Is.
per bottle.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He had also expected
that the Noble Lord would have proposed some alteration
in the timber duties—(Hear, hear)—for he could see no sea-
son why 108 should be levied on one description of timber, and
21s. 15s. on another, except it was to uphold the old but
fallacious doctrine, that it was to give protection to the colonies.
He had always submitted that without any difficulty if any
timing was to be done with the corn laws, there
would be no difficulty in making a fixed duty.
If the Noble Lord could only be induced to
change the corn laws to a fixed state, he was not fastidious
about the duty ; he would be willing to support him in such a
Proposition. Why should not the Noble Lord have put
a duty of six or seven shillings on every quarter, and
take off the window tax ?—( Hear, hear.) If he would do
that it would give more satisfaction. At present all the ad-
vantage the Noble Lord said would go to the landed interest,
but
he denied that it damaged the landholder and damaged
the occupiers. The Honourable Baronet had said what
hope could the occupiers have of relief? Why what
hope would they have? It was in favour of the occupiers
that he (Mr. Hume) had always contended that the system was
bad. The various other items of duty appeared to him
to have been sadly neglected.—(Hear. hear.) Instead of re.
lieving articles that were almost prohibited, and thereby
increasing the revenues by the great additional reduc-
tion of taxation on them, they had been entirely overlooked.
It was quite a mistaken notion to entertain, that the landed
property in this country was the most valuable. It was highly
valuable, but what made it so ? Why the manufactures of the
country, and in proportion as the intercourse in commercial
changes was encouraged, and the comforts of the people
at large consulted, so would society be the more enabled
to buy meat, butter, eggs, and 10 on, and in that way would

the value of land be increased, and both the public and private
interests of landowners promoted. The Noble Lord would
have to make a greater reduction—he must relieve first and at
once from the window tax, and, as soon as might be, give as
much more relief as possible.

The Marquis of CHANDOS could only say that, in advo-
cating the agricultural interests, he wished for no monopoly
whatever ; but all he contended for was, that in giving relief
to other classes, relief ought likewise to be extended to the
landowners, who were unable to keep their lands, or do
justice to the soil.—(Hear.) He congratulated all those who
had been relieved from taxes in the last year, and would vote
for the relief that was intended to be granted in the present
session ; but he trusted that those who were benefited would
not be jealous of the landowners, or averse to their partici-
pating in the common advantages. He would repeat, that in
advocating the landed interests he did not consider that he was
advocating any monopoly : he was only speaking for the in-
terests of those classes whose distresses were not mitigated by
any relief that as yet had been extended to other classes. He
should bring forward this question at an early day, and after
the words which Ministers had put into his Majesty's mouth,
in the speech from the throne, he was surprised that the Noble
Lord in his financial statement had said not one word in favour
of the agricultural classes.--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. FERGUSSON thought that the window tax might
be made more productive by a more equal assessment and a
better mode of collecting. The house tax, he believed, had
never weighed on the poorer classes, and it had never affect-
ed any persons who might be considered in a condition of
want. He would rather that Ministers should have taken off
a portion of the malt tax, or have abolished the residue of the
soap duty. He never could assent to the proposition of the
Hon. Member for Middlesex, to take off taxes upon a prin-
ciple of mortgaging the revenues of the Church. He would
enter his protest as strongly against any changes of the corn
laws; and he contended that the Honourable Member for
Middlesex, in his arguments, had proved that by removing
the corn laws, the price of corn would be raised abroad,
and not be reduced at home. One party would be, there-
fore, injured, without the other being benefitted. He pro-
tested against the attempts that had been made in the metro-
polis to overawe the Government on the subject of the as-
sessed taxes. He trusted that the Noble Lord would con-
sider whether relief could not be afforded to the landed inte-
rests. He was ready to meet the ,question of the corn laws,
and he would prove, that if they were repealed, the poor, in-
stead of profiting, would be deprived of employment.—(Loud
cries of " Oh, oh !" and laughter.—(Five hundred thousand
agricultural labourers would be thrown on the poor rates,
without mitigating the condition of the farmer on whom the
burden would fall. The agricultural interests had been pecu-
liarly oppressed and least favoured.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
The Hor.ourable Member for Middlesex exclaimed " Oh, oh,"
but, " Oh, oh" was no argument.—(Laughter.) He (Mr.
Hume) was in the habit of telling his constituents that if the
corn laws were removed bread would be cheap—and he at the
same time told the agriculturists not to be alarmed, for the re-
peal of the law would not make bread cheaper in the least.
He believed lie could understand the Hon. Member as well as
he could understand himself. What did the Hon. Member
mean by talking of monopoly when 400,000 quarters of foreign
corn had been imported last year, and the average duty was less
than six shillings, when the Hon. Member for Middlesex had
proposed that the duty should be ten shillings a quarter ?
Mr. HUME—I am always ready to answer what I say.—
(Loud laughter.) lam always ready to answer for what I
say.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member then disclaimed the
interpretation put on his words by the Hon. Member for
Kirkcudbright.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON Explained. _ _

Sir S. WHALLEY was happy to hear from the Noble Lord
of the prosperous state of the finances, and he trusted that he
would not refuse to the people the modicum of relief demanded
of him. The agricultural interests paid no taxes whatever—
(Laughter)—with the exception of the malt tax, which was
partly paid by the other interests of the country. The poor laws
pressed equally on the commercial and the agricultural inte-
rests, and any alteration of the poor laws would be the reverse
of beneficial to the poor, except as far as the administration of
them by the Magistracy was concerned. He contended that
the window tax ought to be repealed. That tax was more
prejudicial to the poor than any other, and the people had a
right to expect its repeal from what had fallen from the Noble
Lord in the last session. The country would not view the
Noble Lord's relief as a boon, but as a tardy and compulsory
concession. The Hon. Member for Worcester (query, Kirk-
cudbright) had talked of the agitation that had prevailed in
towns on the subject of the assessed taxes, but had he forgotten
the agitation of the agricultural districts upon the subject of
tithes, with the fires to which the poor were urged by the
farmers themselves ?—(Cries of " No, no," from all parts of
the House.) by
people had been so frequently disappointed
in their hopes by that House, which had placed itself so entirely
under the control of Ministers, that they had withdrawn from
their representatives all confidence and respect. The people
would rather repose confidence in his Majesty or his Majesty's
Ministers ; and no House of Commons had ever existed so
totally unhonoured with the confidence of the people.
Sir ITYRRELL rose to repel the assertion made by the Hon.
Member for Marylebone respecting the farmers having insti-
gated the poor to incendiarism.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member for Kirkcudbright had said that Ministers should not
be induced to takeoff taxes by intimidation. . .

Mr. C. FERGUSSON explained—The agricultural interest
had good and deep cause to complain of the preference which
his Majesty's Ministers had shown to the commercial interests
in the distribution of that relief which they were able to give
to the country. If he was not greatly mistaken, there were
forty or fifty articles of commerce which had a protection of
forty or fifty per cent., while the protection afforded to the
agricultural Interest did not amount to more than ten per cent.
He could only say that Parliament, by carrying into effect a
scheme which had been stated by the Noble Lord, would be
acting with great injustice to the agricultural interest. They
did not wish for any unfair or undue preference or protection;
they were willing to bear their fair proportion of thepublic bur-
dens. The Hon. Member for Middlesex ought to come pre.
pared with returns which would show to the House the charges
which were borne by the different classes of the community. It
should in discussing questions of this kind always be borne in
mind that there were various and heavy burdens of a local na
ture exclusively pressing upon the land, as road rates, poor
rates, church rates, &c., the pressure of which on the agricul.
tural interest should always be carefully considered in the dis-
tribution of relief from taxation which the financial state of the
country would from time to time enable the country to make.
The Hon. Member concluded by urgently pressing upon the
Government the necessity of affording immediate relief to the
owners and occupiers of land.
Mr. BENETT did not believe there was any combination
among the agricultural labourers, and, though the burnings had
been numerous, these were not the result of any combination
among them. Though the farmers made no resistance to the
payment of tithes, but paid their taxes cheerfully, they ought,
nevertheless, to be relieved from some part of them. With re-
spect to the house tax, he considered it one of the very best of
taxes. It was, in point of fact, a property tax. If there were
any unfairness in the valuation of houses with a view to this
tax, that defect ought to be remedied. He by no means agreed,
however, with the outcry made upon the apparent inequality
of the valuation of the houses of tradesmen and the mansions
of the aristocracy and opulent commoners. The value of a
house was not to be estimated by its ;mime cost; its value was
what it would let for.—(Hear, hear.) The house tax was very
easily assessed, and, if not strictly speaking a property tax,
came very near a property tax. If the house tax was to be
assessed upon large houses in the country according to their
value, as estimated by the cost of building them, they would
remain untenanted. If the house tax were to be levied on this
principle, the consequence would be that gentlemen would be
driven from their country houses. They knew that everything
was done by combination,and that nothing could be done with-
out it. A little more combination amongst landlords and their
tenants against the taking off the house tax might be beneficial.
The tendency, then, of the house tax was to compel gentlemen
to reside in the country, and they were thus instrumental in
promoting the landed interests. The repeal of the house
tax was indirectly injurious to the landed interest.—(Hear,
hear.) He was not a little surprised, however, at the
motive by:which the Noble Lord pref,ssed to be actuated in the
repeal of this tax. It was certainly strange that the Noble
Lord should admit that he was induced to accede to such a mea-
sure, not because the tax was oppressive, but because it was
unpopular, and that it excited great clamour. All taxes were
bad, and, with reference to this abstract proposition, repealthetili he
S
of the house tax might be said to be a desirable object.
could not but regret that some part of this relief had not
een
extended to the landed interest. He contended that the shop-
keepers were not entitled to this relief, for in point of fact the
house tax was not paid by them, but by their customers. To a
property tax we must come sooner or later, and, this being so,
the sooner we came to it the better.
yastasexled scuopupldosiinnganity,
Colonel EVANS began by observing that the Hon. Member
who had just sat down had stated that the house tax was the
same as a property tax. Did the Hon. Member mean seriously
however, to be a property tax, he (Colonel Evans) objected to
it because it was unequally levied. The houses of the
sthori
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let
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The speech of the Honourable Member was one of the
Honourablereasconable magermicbueltrurhaald
monopolies, whether in agriculture or commerce, were bad.
mThoset-
and yet landlords not be losers. He (Colonel Evans)
believed it to be impossible that bread might fall in price, and
yet landlords be the gainers. So long as we had so many mo-
nopolies we should see this clashing between the agricultural
and commercial interests. He (Colonel Evans) on this ground
contended that there ought to be a general revision of our sys-
tem of taxation. The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had
observed that the poor rates pressed more heavily on the agri-
' cultural classes than on the town population. He, however, be-
lieved that, on a full examination of the subject, the facts would
not bear the Right Hon. Baronet's statement. It would be
found that the towns paid as much, or more, to the poor rates as
the country. He (Cot. Evans) objected to the plan of the Noble
Lord because, while he removed half the tax, he retained all
the machinery. That was one objection which he felt to it.
He had another objection to it. He thought that, by an equi.
table adjustment, which he would presently suggest, the tax
might have been taken off'. The legacy duty fell wholly on ter-
tonal property. Let a corresponding tax be put on real pro-
perty, and then the Noble Lord might get rid of the house am
window tax altogether and at once. The Noble Lord had spoken
of the means which had been resorted to for the purpose of in-

fluencing the Government, and of the intimidation which
been attempted. This argument he (CoL Evans) thot
the very last which ought to be mentioned in this House,
that what was called the Reformed Parliament had
tained entirely by what was done out of doors. Befa
dowh he would recall the Noble 'Lord's recollectu
speeches and votes before he came into office, and coot'
dressed to the House. no and
Mr. DUNCOMBE regretted that there was
l of some of the taxes pressing upon
ment of any re pea was in favor
cultural interest. All the relief propose—
slat
the and manufacturing interests. It was
with the plans he now proposed, and the arguments he
the commercial and manufacturing interests were in
unexampled prosperity, and yet the relief was sate
exampled distress and difficulty, and yet no relief at
afforded to them. The Noble Lord ought to have
i
regard to the opinion which was implied in the vote !I
been given on the malt tax, although the Noble Lord
duced the House to reverse that vote. He did not be'
Milisters were aware of the distress and difficultii
landed interests. The pressure had fallen most heavilh
middle classes of landowners—the proprietors of t,
farms of about two hundred acres—farms which had,
most part, been inherited from their ancestors. This
portant and valuable set of men were entirely ruined.
increasing pressure on the agricultural interests this
men had gradually sunk from their state till they
at that degree of depression and ruin in which they
found to be. But he would not press further this pals
ject. He would not say more than that it was the Par'
duty of this House to attend to the agricultural inter
interest which was the basis of all the other interes
country. It was the duty of the House, indeed, to
every interest, but particularly, and above all others,
favour, while the agricultural interests were in a
landed interest.
Colonel TORRENS would not detain the Commit
any financial details on the commercial policy of the
Some doctrines, however, had been laid down so untin
principle and so mischievous in practice that he taut
the attention of the House for a few minutes whil.
plained their fallacy and unsoundness. He was
surPl
hear it stated by the Hon. Members for Oldham and T;
that no relief would be afforded to the agricultural int
a commutation of tithes. The commutation of tith,
be equivalent to the removal of a tax on production, '
open a large field of speculation and enterprise to t
cultural interests. A greater amount of cal itsl wet.
consequence be applied to the cultivation of the soup her.
duce of it would be augmented in a corresponding pportioi
and more, consequently, would have to be divided ante'
proprietors of the soil than at present. The titheowne
not get less, and the landowner would get more. It '
said that the proposed reduction of taxation would
relief to the land. What would the landed proprieti
There were no direct taxes affecting the land. No cell
fore, could be afforded to the landowner by any repeal
taxes. The Noble Lord (Althorp) proposed to relievi
by the only means by which the land could be rebel
proposed to take off the taxes locally affecting the lane
said by the Hon. Member for Tamworth, that even
in the poor laws would not relieve the land. Hi
Torrens) was of opinion that such a measurewould I
tainly relieve the land. A measure by which the Pant
be converted into an efficient labourer, and by
wi
money now paid in the shape of poar rates should be
the reward of useful labour, must increase the genera
production, whilst it diminished the charges upon it,
sequently, in a double sense, increase the profits of
owner. It had appeared to him necessary to corn
errors, to show the unsoundness of the principles
they were grounded, and the mischievous consem
which they led. He congratulated the Government
course it was pursuing, and anticipated the happiest
from the proposed equitable commutation of the ti'
reform of the poor laws.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said that the Noble Lord hi
more political dexterity than sound political wisdo]
course he had taken. The Noble Lord had fowl,
might he called the Westminster Races, and had
twelve hundred thousand pounds he had to dispose
contended for at them. He bed thrown this sum
waters of contention, and while the opposing part
struggling for it, the Noble Lord congratulated hi
being half through the session. He was not n(
to offer any opinion as to the relative claims of
parties. But he would observe, that there was
which had no advocates, which had no sympathy in th;
and that was the party of the people. Instead of gi
relief to the people, the Government had actually th
them a new tax of 600,0001. This was effected by '
the tea tax, by means of the graduated scale of duties,
the Government, as he had shown last session, had
hundred thousand pounds out of the pockets of the
and lower classes, the great consumers of tea,
id to
lux!
• Whl
one of the most essential articles of support
would reserve himself for the considerationof the agri
question. The Noble Lord could not give moreeffectr
to the people, nor show any more practical sympathY
than by taking the duty off malt, and imposing a tax
Lord MORPETH rose, and observed, that if they'
be a reduction of taxation it ought to be considered
quarter such a reduction would afford the greatest ri
contribute most to the general welfare of the country.
cpution, such an object would be best accomplished b'
ing the taxes on the raw materials. By adopting thi
policy greater facilities would be afforded for produi
demand for labour would be increased, and the mann},
interests rendered mare prosperous. He (Lord Worpeth
not help thinking that the most efficient relief wrii;"
be given to the country would be by an alteration in
laws.—(Hear, hear.) If, however, the Noble Lord
had cane to the determination to remit a portioi
taxes, he (Lord Morpeth) trusted the subject would be •
considered before any steps were taken for that purpos,
ar
yet the repeal of the house tax had not eeen virtually
on, and before the actual repeal of this tax should take
(Lord Morpeth) hoped the Noble Lord would, previous
coming to any resolution on this subject, direct his sere
tention to those taxes which pressed most heavily or
dustry of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Such a
procedure would be most conducive to the genera
perity of the country, and would be, as well as a mess
,
expediency and of general advantage, one of Nadel:
numerous and important class of the people. In
therefore, of taxes he would urge upon the Noble lord
pediency of removing those which pressed most sever
the poor and operative classes.
The question was then put, and the resolution agreed
The other resolutions having been agreed to, and
tion put that the report be received,
Mr. ROBINSON asked when the report of the
Commissioners would be completed and ready for delb"
Lord ALTHORP said (as we understood) that ti
would be ready very soon.
The report of supply was ordered to be received
day next.

CASE OF MR, SHEIL.
Mr. GROTE brought up the report of the Select C.°'
appointed to inquire into the charge against Mr. SheiL
When the question was put that the report be laid '
table, it was followed by a general cry through the

" Read, read," and " Order,

order."

The report was then read, and was as fol'ows :
" The Committee of Privileges, to whom the Inn'
complaint was referred arising out of a paragraph in
miner newspaper, dated November 10, 1833, have agr,
and do hereby submit to your Hon. House, the foli
port:
the' paragraphrTeliiieort f
a pee
cihn
pquube
Isitci
loyn ,d
epl
iuvreproerdt ibnyg
Matt hew
port Hill, Esq., Member of Parliament for the bn
Hull, as follows :
" It is impossible for those not actually in the
iiofylenuneercseeeslsvaaegrsaiy)''ns t
know all the secret machinery by which votes are obt:
navpn:utdkce
voted
warcouldegitsahii:
eggattrpeeeld,aveteabri
yv,y
n
I
Ministers and said, Don't bate one single atom of
sonhpra
ipstphwell
tet to know
)tonewßro thisahnnodd
ill,
or will
for Ireland, I must be out all
it be impossible for,u7thwyahmtoanisspnteoealic,iesvesaaiiirndy,lrvbeoecltaenaudag:
clause of it,
sai
ar
Bi
Idtdi c?tthi n oet this
in: ioshat ereflhriraoo choose.'—(Cries replied,'
.enyd't—o, (Cries of Name' and No.'
an
sider for a moment, can I do it ?—(` No,' Yes.')
point for my consideration. I have a great respect
one here; but if every one in the room was to hold up
for it I would not do it. The secret is not my own.
told it to me I would have said, Mark, I will keep
secret as this—l will publish it to the world.' But
the Member, I put it in the power of the individual
that declaration to know the gentleman who told me.
" Your Committee, in entering on the delicate
barrassing duty hnposed upon them, ascertained .JlO
Hill that, though he could not admit the entire
of the above paragraph, as a report of what he
iicly spoken at Hull, he nevertheless recollected
publie:y charged an Irish Member of Parliament wits
similar in nbstance to that which the paragrap!!

The Irish Member so alluded to was Richard Lalor Sl
M.P. for the county of Tipperary ; and Mr. Hill si
charge to the best of his belief to have been substal
follows :

" That Mr. Shell made communications respecting
Coercion Bill to persons connected with the Govern:
others, with the intention thereby of promoting the I
the Coercion Bill, and having a direct tendency to prod'
effect, whilst his speeches and votes in the House werr
to the defeat of the Coercion Bill
" Such was the substance of the allegation into wl
Committee proceeded to inquire. Two witnesses were,
fare them at the suggestion of Mr. Hill, and others were abol
examined, when Mr. Hill himself, finding the testimoi.
heard very different from what he had expected, free)
spontaneously made the ibllowing communicatior
Committee :

" ' That he had come to the conviction that
against Mr. Sheil, of having directly or indirectly
rated, or intended to communicate, to the Governm
private opinions in opposition to those which he ex 7
the 1-10113., of Commons had no foundation in fak
such charge was not merely incapable of formal p)
was, in his present sincere belief, totally and absoi..
founded ;--that he had originally been induced to makt
t'on of it in a hasty and unpremeditated speech, undr
persuasion that he had received it on undeniable eyieb
that, being now satisfied of the mistalw into whirl
Linen, and convinced that the charge was wholly 'al

Ltere,
eati,,

' e,
''Pka ge,

411 n
E 0404,
ch,

Col,
dise4.l

,

the
(3,lrt,

which bad
ought 10° rune
use, seeing bath
been ob- bade-
been
Fore he sat wldei
ion to his to ,z
tract them 'late,
e now ad- " I
the,
limo,
loota
Puts
close
beror
°,lt t
to in
Matt
aa,Da nataautttetinrh:
fated
1 inotieofutftahentwughtecita
sroaeli 1
er:-.i.
had o'll_l el ari
which had Shei
d had in- then.
elieve that
let of the their
meal
ily on the
the small Hull
d, for the racy.
5 most im- Ken,
By the ci,e
is eats ei, ei,d,
lad arrived , whici
' itl
, Were poll th,
Mafia sob- 'II
be 1,
Param that some
erect, that
gists ofd the
n to from
atte
I„,
ens, to the
rata
otee by
cf 11, s
it
tee
country. it,
be di
founded ill
la
ust entreat
the i
ile he ex-
trprised to th,
Tamworth toki
nterests by 1-kai
Gove
hey would
(011.0
1
derat
N',lti
'4l)j,
Any
lion.
ouch
at th
111.0...
lief,Lrr:a:nal3;'whtrunenPhe:iotr:heuth irntwwetl there- e cal
:°vPigut:renrrvi ill' iial'e-el?;11.
te',
titiie
al of direct ill th
what
be the land
wed Hz I" th
he „
Id. It was 1011(010
I a reform
(e (Colonel Pap
by hi
most cer.
'per would Suit
they
which the
Probe
/e paid aS 80,0,
ral mass of and
~.
;, and con- the _.'
r the land- In
baps
rent those he
on which Co
Wtas,
[uences to little
ent on the rid.
a,l
est results ileusu
ithes, and h'
or, it
the
:ad shonat tot t'l
in self the he
Cnn
nand what , t,-,
qak
given the heel
e of, to be ante "'
a into the Ika,„
trties were rlm4;‘,
himself 011 kihj
:ow going v 1
et„.',
these two 1.,e, •
one partythe'',
hat House, ‘vi,„'ta
4- ‘4
;lying any 411,)
thrown on ke g
means °C i 44,
trtioh.,
;, by which Agin(
r
taken six i
wi.
e middling ~4,1
born It was
Ihrivat
;Ai :
;Airy. He
,rieultural 10(11.41
, o'lll
;tual relief taiii'„,
r for them., ut,,,t,.'
. on g Rh,:
erein-
was to tna r
0 I
d in what; catti.,
relief, aim in detti
4 '
1. In his Itir.
by Ted"- Prie,.,
the ',
the "(
, Pc
'gains
t° call
' •ittt,
get hi,
kr,
'ff the
'llditi
',hat 1%
kr
b .
„itter ;
ipo.lH'uneueicini(yofsoss:caspiiadyecor)iirefeot.atilitiunfc,:oiereacttiltrpiiti:7lll:°l.aseyse)ie,f
tnh'e e:
,}uncial
4 at lb
de f a"
Dart,
%,,
0..
Ikit •I''
hi,, A
. owl
e:
slredret n 1 tti I :ensurehhoaPP' repeat,
:atnr::::::- by no
vh,i t
!rely' upon te
Mend,,,..
eed to.. ai `vt
the 01es' oti t,,,,
4411 h
11%s, -
Poor Lilt illteßic
very Lrt Part of
the ter ''•ittstl
both,
i on 14°P. 3, v 151
Qtle,
kr.
Nete:v
:ongaittea . ,
Ati...
L Nter
use upon f Lea,,,!
Howe ° Th;"(
opthe ee
,a ace,
matter of grei,
I)
the Pa- With 1
,
reed uP°ll' c 04,1
[lTeowing re- kik"(
the ,hz
rum part of '1'144
ew Haven- C,,1,
borough of tiwistz
r,,
/louse to s,
ti
'tarried. I Witte,
3r. tO er.
• 11
11
as ,
r), '
that an xAltii,
ains4 eVe°, Placed
t, went t`' kr.
f that OW, aii wil
1." What, ' Pkt,tir
II kid I,
he ,'
,e•
lArk, t •
Oet,tit
li
g altogether'
jaift s tci
is tdni
,3°- '''
kith ,
for ever) the (N"
m his hand tchey r
If he had . .."ga '
L. '
pnO such ' '' no ,
:if 1 panic' 1 I:tiled
who made' ' 44'rrl
, r venal
~
, and etn' ' the
fro '''llr,
m '
acoural rY valis
!to pub. high!
d
have, that
th corttlV. • Q bti,
karitt'
filer,,
ta:shdtnateeshttielivealPiltrYteils , '
,• , .
oj‘,,ll:l'fijsutttutiii.l,43l3ij
Intent, an
of . rli,iry
O passing wont;
' j Al, es
r:er°dheci
acuihCi de directedtU"- "hb 31. t
....,;: ,i 1 :4',: ?;
aeL4):l',."'Wrra.,edti
)an7aUltr e Wt°- At
eAI . ' ';'' badt::Eli
freely a 0;
m to tie ;bap ,
,i'lact b
his cba .140 Di
commur Illved,
,ment, a'IY ass d
' I.
;pressed • • • Ord
in
act; ths, •
proof, be' ' ~,, °llbe
rlutely u 0 ', til' stai
make Men- ;' „9 re,
ler a 0113 ' lat h,
'l,it .. 4 )ii
df,..pce ;
_.,, , 48,
ich he had
untrue' 14' •
•ik•

awe-
agri-
' the
that
of
heir

deti
he
I, i 4
at.-..

cry
ex-
,,01)

of
,011,
re•

,nd
had
ich •
.r 0
ade

114

11

Came forward to express his deep and unfeigned sorrow for
• haying ever contributed to give it circulation.' Mr. Hill
added, ' that if there were any way consistent with honour by
Which he could make reparation to Mr. Shell, he should deem
' •.110 sacrifice too great to heal the wound which his erroneous
' • oent had inflicted.'
• ' " it is with the highest gratification that your Committee find
themselves enabled thus to exonerate an accused
Me liansent from imputations alike painful and
undeserved.Memberbe The vo-
r of Par-
InwfarYavowal of an erroneous statement on the part of Mr. Hill
, Inds it now in their power to pronounce a decided opinion and to
, dose the present inquiry. Neither of the witnesses who appeared
before the Committee deposed to any facts calculated to bear
out the allegation against Mr. Shell, nor did their testiomsomnymgoiy
Sot
impeach his character and honour in any
. matter whaever.
elating their The Committee had no hweseiyta
Shell, in del,berate conviction that the innocence.referred to
resPect to the whole matter of complaint
ot
n oi fn Mr.tie-
;
their investigation, is entire and unquestionable..
Y our Committee feel bound at the same time to express
their full confidence in Mr. Hill's declaration, that the state-
nkHeuni It i 41Pe
ache
n r. Sheil's character de by him at
racy under a ChM,i though mistaken
' persufrom the tone of
They derived this confidence as well . .
was
made
of its accu-
generous re,. •
tident
the
close ~,ret which characterised his .
d issions and the
e of their proceeding as from the candi
communication at the
delivered
Whlril they have ob e ved throughout his testimony as
Y to avoid all exaggeration and misstatement
in their presene,s r
The r
question put that it
be 1 • °Port having been read, and the
from
ald ePon the table a cry for Lord Althorp proceeded
""
Parts oft H '
/4341 ,
_e ouse.
41.TIIORF rose and was received "en' the 11' •
in a tone of voice so
14,
_n _ 1 ieisterial benches. He with loud cheers
tat-,a 4. Indistinct that it was difficultspoke almost throughout to
$e said I4s sentences, except by conjecture from particular words.
f om some parts
aid that after the cheers which P
diel;:eliouse, and after the report the
had just
this report to be
laid_llietilt for him to remain silent and allow yraceededst heard, it would
(Mr. Shell)
Ed
l'irts the table without any observation. l
mHoencouldr. assure
that t $° the
and the Hon. and Learned
t the Hon. and
rein °n,Pers°° more sincerely rejoiced Gatentth.ee contents of the
Lear„ ' Gentleman mself. The charge agams
unications to
%yr,' was, that he m
ft. 114411, 'IA and to others as to the adconsequencesunder the consi-
derati t" rejection of a certain measure then emim
that would
When first this
'Pokes'.,ef the House, while in his place. in Parliament he
stibjet;' voted against the same
in which the
too
no was brought before them hernsteanstedurcciistinctly that there
Hon andkridation for that part of the charge
he mentioned
t; Learned Gentleman was represented to have made
at th, -"ttnnunications to Government. B.huieth
placed the
he
earliest time that, upon authority on which
ve
lear",,,t,,,rellattee, he had reason to
cationsen-
bnett; 'entlernan in private commuhneoedn. and
which he expressed
in the lic° the measure different to t
r
etxhper e .1-1.. s
those
place, and after
',bat "aT' After what had now taken
upon a former occasion
la the H be
drawn from him state openly why
be
ot•0, he feat himself called upon to
from him
0 wlade use - • the House heard
el'°°tbat rif the observations
in several public
Pap his ilia `'easion. He saw by what appeared
speech made
hY s Ot great attention had been draw. n to the Ht.
il By the
taisst°°• and Learned Friend (Mr. Hill)
aHrouse he saw that
they
weus kit to him (Lord Althorp)
.in the h
some further
Proceedings Pet with the view of following
upeviyously made in
oorn, puhnigs those attacks that had been
himselfPr
with a simple
and genet le
Papers. Had he contented
put to him,
the Mattal s.tatentent in answer to the question • furher he per-
hPs act" !rqht
~,... have ended there. In going
did-not see how
he ed "Prue Minister, but he
could have ently as a
better
nd he should be be
Pleased t ~ acted otherwise as a man, and 111110 0 he f.
ion for too
"a -.LIM fault with upon such an occas
an
indi_
'id" Pr—ealoe than f t o much. His character as
lie
al
he
niUst
always crr
• oabove his character as a Minister.
k. stipt.,o„.,
.. prize .
h the House now made upon
'llo it was'm Mat by the call which
some opinion as to
the „ eapected th e should express
satisfied as
ieth '4'4. lie was ready to declare himself quite
e fact th t h H Learned Gentleman neither him-
'elf te,,, • a t e on. and
others to
kali„, he to Government nor authorised
which
he ' the communication of opinions different to those
setZPressed in his place in that House; but there wasan_ 1,(..,,,er question, namely, whether - the Honourable.
sentiments
tlifre."ed Gentleman expressed in conversation s6qltim
this
1,,,,,1t'ent to those he maintained in the House.
Upon•
,e, !'e received his information first from persons in whosed
,t,,:rel„.4tY he Placed the utmost confidence, and the Hon. an
ele G htl an did not appear to him
• at first to deny.
‘'he:,-Zi, t made by him (Lord Althorp). He did not tint
4Yis -e'tade the statement that (as we understood). he
tow a kee,tB:nYthing which could be considered disparagmgoet
1 Itttitt,,r f Parliament but, as a Minister, perhaps
I hit •or'entlY in making 't As he mentioned before, he had
' 44111 • 1 ' • honour and veracity lie
triil atem from persons in whose
w came for-
i Ward ,but if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
not express In
Driv:ed declared before the House that he
in his place he
11)04 opinions different to those he expressed _ _
been _
mis
Int he convinced, and rest satisfied that he had
one
n had been
tv el, or that and Learned Gentleman tallnde4 iat the Hon.
information
the
likii whi,theed• Ile was bound to say that.
bear out the
°tittri March he grounded his opinions did not
Gentle.
trlan, j-- °f the charge against the Hon. and Learnedh.
Wem.
eowd
n4ll therefore he was ready to apologize
to
oNoble Lord ;
ted h't bear the concluding observations o. f the
4 e was heard throughout very indistinctly.
Learned
kriend (~,i-uNNELL did not think his Hon. and
ested
by
tn,h' /Cob'', r,
_* Shell) was bound to come forwasd as su
ggbefore in
the Pres n-
him
His Hon. and Learned Friend once
et
qolnst e °f the House emphatically denied the charge.
right
to ~,,by the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had no
mitt, again u his II and Learned Friend. _The Ono;
Bet ki„,„,,
out y 'llin Ho
the charge. The Noble Lord mu.
tair-c'oltE as heTT s could.
d rejoiced that this stain was wiped
° the Irish Members. lie should say not a word as to the
ohdition in which the Noble
Lord was placed. It was only
What was to be expected.
b kr. O'DWYER thought the Noble Lord would have done
:I,,_ter if, after hearing the report of the Committee read, he at
f:_re expressed himself satisfied that his charges were without
tZtl dation. He had no hesitation in expressing his conviction
andse whole proceeding was directed, not against his Hon.
Med F • d
.7 a h„,. . Friend singly, but that the object was to prostrate
wiTY in that House of which his Hon. and Learnedh
Friend
kit eir:e. The Committee having made their report, would
better consult
hit own to the Noble Lord, whether he would nfotthb:
'Committee,
bY 0,4 dignity, and that of the House and
to
wo or three days,
411 e °Pening upon a fresh discussion.
his Hon. and Learned
p . this i . was going forward,.
most
~. riend w Inquiry .
certain quarters with s unrelenting.a- l'e,; 4ecituass Pursued in .
",,„'Qu t,,,, i''''',.---(Cries of " Question.") He made no direct a u
the Hon. Member for
rtlill I,,,‘,4l4lriduals, but he must say that .
ncluct in s ‘,,, done himself great honour by his co
B on thin this
'1111.11,.,"ohn the Part taken by a Right Hon.
ar
from that
tart (J.o' he was hippy to see, that when a Member
lei.in;, the empire' to which he (Mr. O'Dwyer) belonged was hod Y aualled he was sure to meet with support from a
4 ~? N. lligh_ . in H se —(Loud cries of
Vnestion „r inded gentlemen that House.—(Loud . kr. vi,;
tlete:v , 'N. Bade one or two observations, whic • h were corn.
4.. Mandible in consequence of the noise in the House.had been
~,,, C FERGUS
•tered . SON regretted that any discussion.
an_
tea,,_ Into after the report. He rejoiced that his Hon. d
There Friend stood completely acquitted of the charge.
the ~ci'mt'us no person in the House who would not rejoice ae
Etcol,h7ed
the of any Member Under peculiar circumstanctehe
pH..
linf proceeding from the beginning. During
intercourse
yi„: the measure which gave rise to it he had had
ir
c:_el intany Irish ensh^
M —yrs, and he never saw anything in the
ith`ll:tieTor language that was pot fair, consistent, and honour-
he re io
the eh_ I rt coUld have no effect but to raise still higher
aequit4thacter of
~,, the Tx
on. and Learned Gentleman, and to
Col e .muse of any participation in these attacks.
..
enel L. n .
olskt„sion AY said that what fell from him in a previous
'4' th li uPon this subject was not meant to hurt the feelings r '4
;„°n' an
d Learned Ge tl (Mr. Shell), and he now
ktttee, express his gratificatinon ern
t the decision of the Corn.
Was he the feeling of thecountry now must be that there
(Althot"undation f
like the Noble Lord
, place P), hut
L. or the charge. He,
which he
rehan nms information from quarters on
kr sti re.
411:,h° lief.ri,after some hesitation, said it must be evident to
Piii ''''Y - exonerateLl report read that he must feel himself cow.
rid t_e,,
he -,•arian,,s' from one part of the charge. The Hon.
felt h''' Gentleman that
(the Member for Hull) declared
Il,fts to ''l t'nlY tl
but that it
ia tally d . 'at the charge was not proved,
e,,tl_.
estaute of
Learned
foundation. That Hon. and.
' 'kith "ten, upon the,
turned to him (Mr. Shell)
the (Nsi'me e,ootion r Meeting,
forgive him.
the,' r• Shell), e ' ar'd desired that he would
tment for
f, ' 'lever found ntertaining no feelings of resen
1 ,rgaee him
ti residence in his bosom, said at once that he
fia'i'el ,r of 40Zigh he Inade a most serious charge against
House, and
toted"..With teepee endeavoUred to establish it in. the
;
oble
yetvat`i° diseiaittetti to the call made upon
him
private con.
the c °4 differ, me utterance of opinioneds i. .
t.o
ommitt e tit frorn those he express in .
the House.
ed th (-- would d • justice to admit t a h t he
Withst . at he re o him the i
this point. Not.
Ni%
the quested, investigation upon
warned by the
trhat 11. ott. qet 44111114 y which he was
me nllght i tielan (Mr. Islanley) his fearful bodings of
stin te °how tit
recipice,
, tindis,.. gh placed to
the verge .
of
a PThis de.
Mein -.
pores "!aYed, and dared to court inquiry.
of the
I,thpuer
tettou was not limited to the allegations
ed
so
in. 1, and 111" Th
charg
-JUN
~,, - which
,_ e perfidy which had been
d to the
' ' ‘'t th • ''" nail so long as a charge circulateon
Wtth th e intio Jest,„ 5 Perso„
....„eent--•the perfidy of the
.tran.aacti rested Ma.
oft; ' GOve,ti,::
.willlM made the communication to his
name
,44. oat person 71(ot. If the Noble Lord had given up t.he i
.n..
:‘,OlrY, and thelue would have done rightly, and this painfu I.
ei, 4ki have heeahuse of the mind of the House and of the
r.,-"twre,neY in hisn ?ared. The Noble Lord, however,had givengthe it had ef the 'O5l " name to the slander. It was not
i _ - bee" h m-unielit, but thepower of the hand by which
..ord had , urled, ~,,,,
acenittea g've°
,thew.."` had done the mac •
hief The Noble
to gi, --.
the ebt_eight of his character to the charge. He
v._ e any nnt..,,_ v Lt)rcl of intending to do what was wrong, or
'gdepd the Iccii,Zr PrePonderance to the charge. He was con-
itat.w"libtedi. d
, y gone4r-- Was incapable of such conduct, but he
heti One
srish ad'
the length of pleelging himself that more
also origina
" initiu oh had been guilt: of the conduct which
, ted to ~
voived in 'ed a remarknra (Mr. Sheil). The Noble Lord h the ti Pon the sacrifice of private character
Dan delic "neu Lord ; atelY °ver that et be had stigraatized. He wished to
Ilan but therei eoutdP,a,rt of the observations of the Noble
ate °Us tollUtatien 1.; "e ho doubt that he had adopted the
:°3. harge of the NohY the tone of his remarks. At this part
whether he wat, one rd be (Mr. Sheil) called upon him
'tkatrehceived an answer` Jat, of the Members referred to,. and
lti, e had said ande
t.'le athrtnative. Now he admitted
liQ much Crime B'4te °f Ireland was such, that there
so 41,,,, •
^vs; Incendiarisma that something -

ought to be done.—(Hear, hear.) When he so said, how-
ever, he had also observed (hat, in his opinion, the suggestions
of the Queen's County Con-at:Mee, if carried into execution,
would be enough for the rurpos s of traaquillization.—(Hear,
hear.) Bo had said this out of the House—he thought he
had said it in the House. If, then, he had said as much as this
at Brooke's, or the Athenzeum, or at any other club-house,
would it warrant, upon the testimony of club-house witnesses,
the heavy accusation brought against him, of having declared
himself in favour of the Coercion Bill ?—(Hear, hear.) If, be-
' fore the Committee, he had been called upon to defend himself
against that charge, he should have been prepared to show that,
upon the very occasion upon which he had so declared his
opinion upon the state of Ireland, he had spoken in terms of
strong condemnation of the Coercion Bill He might be per-
' witted to name the Hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Aber.
crombie) as the gentleman who ua, prepared to state to the
Committee the true nature and circumstances of the conversa.
tion. He would have stated that he (Mr. Shell) having been
invited by that Hon. and Learned Gentleman to deliver his
sentiments upon the state of Ireland, in a conversation at a
club-house, had freely done so, but that he had said nothing of
the kind imputed to him by the Noble Lord. He should also
have produced his friends, those who had known him in his
domestic relations of life, to whom the habits of his mind and
all the secrets of his heart were known. They would have
disproved the charge of perfidy which laid against him. He
should have been prepared with this and other evidence to dis-
prove, both directly and indirectly, any serious charge against
him ; but he could scarcely have expected to meet, as the only
charge, the sweepings of clubs by Ministerial agents, the rakings
of after-dinner conversations at convivial meetings, or in social
assemblies, where a loose was givep to the tongue without the
thought of responsibility attaching to what was said.—(Hear.)
He should like to know which of his Majesty's Ministers would
like to be judged in that way. Had they never said aught in
private they would not like to have produced against them in
the form of a public accusation ?—(Cheers.) But he stood there
to defend, not to accuse. The heart should be a man's de-
fence, not his professions. The Noble Lord had stated that if
he (Mr. Shell) would state that he had not done those things
which had been imputed to him he should feel bound to believe
him. He accepted the Noble Lord's apology and his invitation
at the same time ; and he did solemnly declare that he was not
guilty of any of the charges that bad been made against him.--
(Cheers.) He had been led to make these observations against
his original intention. After all that had been said and circu
lated upon this subject, the materials that bad been furnished
to the newspapers for months past to wound and slander a repu-
tation dear to him, not on his own account merely, but on ac.
count of others, who were dearer to him than his life, and to
whom his reputation was more dear than their existence, he
had found it impossible to remain silent.—(Cheers.) He had
done. He accepted the apology of the Noble Lord, and if on
his deathbed, at that moment about to appear in the presence
of his God, he would fearlessly protest that he was not guilty.—
(Loud and long-continued cheers.)
Mr. ABERCROMBIE (havingbeen called upon by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Tipperary) would merely trespass on
the House to state the particulars of the conversation which
had passed between himself and the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber. A few days ago the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
reminded him of a conversation they had held upon the state
of Ireland during the deb:tes on the Coercion Bill. He (Mr.
A.) told him that he recollected having held such a conversa-
tion, but could not call to mind the particulars of it. He now
repeated that statement to the House. He had found it impos-
sible to recall the particulars ; but although he could not recol-
lect what the details of that conversation were, neither could
he recollect any one circumstance or opinion coming from the
mouth of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman inconsistent with
the opinions that he had heard him express publicly in that
House.—(Cheers.) He should not have thought this worth
stating to the House had not the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman referred directly to him.
Mr. Secretary STANLEY hoped the question was at length
brought to a conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) In the report which
had been laid before them, and the painful discussion which
had followed, he trusted a salutary lesson had been impressed
upon the House to guard itself against receiving as facts wor,
thy of attention matter which rested upon vague and rambling
reports. If the experience which they had of this affair had
taught them this lesson, all they had gone through would not
be thrown away. He should not have said one word if the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not called upon him. That
Hon. and Learned Gentleman appealed to him, demanding to
know what must have been his (Mr. Sheil's) feelings, as an in-
nocent man, when his warning had been addressed to him. In
answer to that appeal, he would say that such must have been
his feelings as would be the feelings of any man labouring under
unjust suspicions, who saw a tribunal appointed which' was to
make manifest his innocence.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Stanley) hastened to say, that with respect to the charges
brought against the Hon. and Learned Gentleman at Hull,
he had been by the report of the Committee fully, distinctly,
and honourably acquitted.—(Hear, hear.) He also rejoiced
to have heard the positive, explicit, and frank denial of the
Hon. and Learned Member, and which having heard, he could
entertain no doubt any longer on the subject that upon no
occasion had the Hon. and Learned Gentleman used language
out of the House inconsistent with that which he had used in,
the House. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman would forgive
him for repeating over and over again that his Noble Friend
had not brought a charge against any one. He knew that his
Noble Friend would not have made the statement had he not
believed it to be true, and believed it upon the testimony
of persons on whose veracity he had the fullest confidence.
After the denial of the Honourable and Learned Gentle.
man, he (Mr. Secretary Stanley) had thought it the best
course to appoint a Committee of Inquiry, the character of
the House being involved in the truth of such denial.
The Honourable and Learned Member had courted the fullest
inquiry, and he was entitled to claim the benefit of the inquiry
of the Committee, before which no evidence in support of
the accusation had been adduced.—(Hear,, hear.) He also
stood acquitted upon his own statement of having held con-
versations of the character imputed to him, the imputations
having originated in loose reports and exaggerations. He did
not wish to derogate from the triumph of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, but he was bound to state that his Noble Friend
would not have advanced the statement if he had not believed
it. He was glad that the House had been spared an inquiry
into loose and vague conversations. He hoped the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman was satisfied with the manner in which
he (Mr. Secretary Stanley) expressed himself. He had ob-
tained a complete vindication of his character, and was re-
lieved from the paint ul situation in which he stood. There
was now not the shadow of a doubt resting upon the word of
the Hon. and Learned Member.—(Hear, hear.)

Sir H. HA RDlNGyeeling, in common with many Hon.
Members, a strong desire that this discussion should close,
would not have troubled the House upon it but for some of the
observations which had just fallen from the Right Hon. Gentle.
man. The vindication of his Hon. Friend did not depend upon
his own assertion of his innocence, but upon the distinct opinion
of the Committee. The report of the Committee did not
merely state that the charge brought against his Hon. Friend
by the Hon. and Learned Member for Hull was disproved, but
that there was no ground of imputation whatever against him.
—(Hear, hear.) The statement of the Committee was, that
there was nothing to bear out the allegations which had been
made against the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary, or
in the least to impeach his character and honour in any way
whatever. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, seemed to
draw a distinction between the charge which had been brought
against the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary by the
Hon. and Learned Member for Hull, and the statement which
had been made by the Noble Lord ; and seemed to imply that
the assertion

Mr. Secretary STANLEY, in explanation, begged to observe
that he had repeatedly declared that the Report of the Com-
mittee had fully and entirely exonerated the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman from the imputations against him, and therefore,
that he was bound to give the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
the full benefit of that circumstance, as well as of having court-
ed a strict investigation of his conduct.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE acknowledged that that was the
case, but observed that the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken
care to add, that the Noble Lord had received his information
from persons on whose veracity he could rely. Having, as a
Member of the Committee, heard the evidence, he must say that
the person whe gave the information to the Noble Lord did state
to the Committee, in the most frank and loyal manner, the im-
pression under which he had made the communication in ques-
tion. He had declared that when in conversation with the
Noble Lord he mentioned the circumstance, he had attached no
importance to it whatever. Not only so, but after having men.
tioned what had taken place at the Athenaeum Club, he (Sir
Henry Hardinge) believed at dinner he had said that the Hon.
and Learned Member for Tipperary at the same time expressed
the strongest disapprobation of the Irish Coercion Bill. He
(Sir H. Hardinge) having asked the individual in question if he
had mentioned the occurrence to any other individual, the
answer was, that he had attached toolittle importance to it to do
so. In fact, he had not communicated it to the Noble Lord
until the month of December, when the Noble Lord and him.
self were discussing the speech which had been made by the
Hon. and Learned Member for Hull. What he (Sir IL
Hardinge) r 'se to insist upon was, that the innocence of his
Hon. Friend did not depend upon his assertion in that House,
but on the evidence, proceedings, and report of the Committee.
Lord ALTHORP, after what had fallen from the Hon. and
Gallant Member, begged to be permitted to state that the
Gentleman in question did certainly, as he conceived, give him
information which had induced him to make the statement
which he had made the other day in the House. He now,
however, believed that he or they must have been mistaken.
Mr. John Wood was the individual to whom the Hon. and
Gallant Officer alluded. The name of the other gentleman he
had not mentioned, nor did he intend to mention it. He re.
peated, that he was perfectly satisfied with the full vindica-
tion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary.—(Hea.r)

Mr. O'CONNELL observed that it must be the wish of
every one that this discussion might now end.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord's declaration must be abundantly sufficient to
justify his Hon. and Learned Friend. The gentleman who
had given the information to the Noble Lord—the only one
who had given evidence before the Committee—had, in his
statements before the Committee, not only not sustained the
charge against his Hon. and Learned Friend, but had done di-
rectly the reverse; for from that gentleman's statement it ap-
peared, that instead of his Hon. and Learned Friend having
approved of the Coercion Bill, he had begun the conversation
in question by distinctly declaring his disapprobation of it.
Such being the statement of the witness whose information
had produced so mistaken an impression on the Noble Lord's
mind, it was certainly not going too far to say, that every trace
of imputation on the character of his Hon. and Learned Friend
had been completely removed and annihilated.

31r. FERGUS O'CONNOR also declared himself fully satin.

fled with the declaration 'of the Noble Lord. He wished
however, to say a few words with respect to what had fallen
a few evenings ago from the Hon. and Gallant Colonel who sat
behind the Noble Lord.—(A laugh.) It must be in the recol-
lection of the House, that the Gallant Colonel had declared his
belief in the reports that Irish Members had in private ex-
pressed opinions on the Coercion Bill different from those which
they had stated in the House.
Colonel LEITH HAY said that it was impossible he could
have made that statement—the information upon which he had
spoken, and which he was now bound to believe was entirely
erroneous, applying solely to the Hon. and Learned Member for
Tipperary.
Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR observed that, such being the
case, he had done.

The motion for printing the report was then agreed to.
SMUGGLERS.

Mr. FRANCIS BARING moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to repeal the provisions in the Customs Acts, by which service
in the Navy is made a punishment for smuggling offences : and
to alter and amend the said Acts.

Captain YORKE, was not quite prepared to acquiesce in the
propriety of such a measure. He knew from experience that
when a smuggler was received on board a man-of-war, he gene-
rally became an exceedingly good seaman.
After a few words from Mr. F. BARING, leave was given
to bring in the Bill.