The Sun.
London, England, 1851-04-15 00:00:00

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eti;el;oairYthib, en for him to enter into, details to show that
iheconsureption of dear coil's had fallen off. The Chan-
Exchequer could not deny that the diesinu-
-I°4 in the consumption of coff:e since 1847 had been
400,0001 he That was not caused by the high price of
eon nor the want of power of consumption in this
pet:rounsny:errYiit3fu.r_tt: nountre was said to be in a state of great
Hear," from Members on the Ministerial
of the He took that statement from the (Thenceller
•.the Exehaquer.—(Leughter.) Tee was article
ilhich came most in competition with coffse; but though
• a' consumption of tea had increased, still it was only in
Dr°Portion to the increase of the population, and its use
sc9nid not he adduced as an argument to account for a
Treinution in the consumption of coffee.—(Hear, hear.)
fat thee real cattle of the diminution was the adulteration
ht hadf taken place, because there was a Treasury
inute coffee.—(Haar.)
sanctioning the adulteration of co•e.—(Hear.)
i
lowas quite true the Treasury minute only permitted
o adoption of chicory, hut the Excite) officers made
"° distinction whether the adulteration was
l`ti"ted through chicory or any other article.
as not only the colonial interest that remonstrated
against
that adulteration. Those enga,gs din the foreign
trade also objected to it. The Brazilians, as well as the
colonial coffee erowers, protested sgainst it. In his
°Pinion it was to useless sacrifice of the revenue. All
!orta of
articles were wed in the adulteration, and the
!Julies adulterating it thought they were quite justified
in
tehat they did, and he could hardly blame them fir
tt°.l3.c: so when they found the Tteastiry minute saying
might adulterate coffee with chicory. The con-
test by this means was made to pay a high price for
toe-'aadlliterated article. If the consumer was permitted
"ate the adulterated article at a low price ha might
not hhave So much reason to complain, but it was not shoe!
it': laid a high price for an adulterated article. T
esur,,
„ minute was issued in 1840, when ceffee
envas
tastsraoeigh Price, and the trade with China bad bsin-
atePted and tea was 33. a pound. Then it was said,
it- ellicory might be allowed to be introduced because
he
Paid the same duty as if it were coffee. Why,
era asked' were they to allow coffee to be adul-
• tla and prohibited the adulteration of every
te exciseable article? The Chancellor of the
'euf cauer said he did not want Excise prese-
atietiens• Nobody did; but in the paper of that very day
saw an account of six prosecutions fur the adul•
tthritt4;ct of beer why was there not a prosecution for
4.
o a adulteration of coffee? There were also prosecu-
ti n
a for
the
etifyadulteration of pepper—why not protect
troy'
in the same manner? He could not understand
tro , unless that the Exeise officers were afraid of the
pose.ble• He could not understand this pertinacious op-
t, tlktion on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
re," withdrawal of the Treasury minute. As to the
,auction of the duty it wis not sufficient to prevent
"411teration,
and ate continuance of the present system
prson°l, in his opinion, fair Lit the honest trader, the
caTucer, and the consumer.—(l3ear.)
P PRINeEp was not, he meld, quite so ready to give
it tee diffsrential duty as the Hun, Gentleman who had
pt,,sat down. Coffee wits an article that could not be
ewillheed without ge, at expense, in a particular climate,
years persons,
seiyi" a particular situation, and for ten
brie .g on the differential duty, had been employed indi
net ~6`,..ng it to a state of cultivation in Ceylon. He
ta, "'" for a double duty for their benefit; but he sai I
eugtttb.o duty ought to be abolished gradually, mid they
that n,`l3 adept the same course of proceeding with coffee
Thep had followed with respect to sugar.
that "#e 011A.NCELLOit tee EXIMEQUER said,
)ras„,aavirg stated the grounds on which his proposition
theowade ou former ocsasion, he could not do better
e 1,-,,f7eat them at present. In 1846 the quantity of
2(13,7",,e`11 Coffee imported for home consumption was
to theee.,ooolbs., and in 1850 it was. 28,892,000:bre; whilst
falle same period the consumption of foreign coffee had
ai,aa Off 10,000 0001bs. Then we had from these colo•
110- 36 °oo,ooolbs., of which there was consumed
col 00,0001b5., and there vets exported abroad of that
odes oeffse from this country 3,500,0001b5. In that
tiles Protecting duty was no advantage to their colo-
and ta they produced more than was consumed here,
their
Protecting duty did not secure them the price for
eel; Vide, for they had to sell it abroad. At the same
to•• "."0 Protecting duty excluded a very valuable de-
thrulaistine
ot_ „
coffee. The reduction of the duty might
jar, ue a benefit to consumers hero, whilst it did no in•
chi.' to the Colonial producer. As to the mixing the
th,ete,rY With coffee, he had discussed the subject so often
eed-tle woald not trouble the House again respecting it,
breathe More especially as the subject was to be again
to"ght forward in that House. He was convinced he
old adopted that which was the best for the con-
r' and would4be no injury to the producers in the
tlr IiTT
this uNIE could state, from an examination into
cult taciablect before a Committee, that it was very diffi-
eeffe distinguish the difference between pure coffee and
Praetecraized with chicory. There was great adulteration
sues Ised with other articles. He was sure one-third of the
for'ir used in this country was adulterated—adulterated
also "tanee, with arrow-root and other things. Pepper
abjection
greatly adulterated. Upon principle he had no
I)(lJr,tion to the mixture of chicory with coffee, if the
tet"el Purchasing it liked to have it so mixed. He would
groetrretent the sale of chicory, but he would prevent
cote" selling chicory as coffee. A sample of pure
foi_ and of coffee adulterated with chicory bad been
roe to him, lie had tried both, and had found
I"3' little difference between them.—(llear.) For a
I.,,7oaangriTrattiomnaonf
I°o3n_gitiene Hunt's roasted corn mixed with chicory and a
flrtoertof chicor pure coffee had been found very palatabl©
Y People. He would not prevent the use cf
Y, and hoped the time would come when
(hlversade would be so far extended as to render excise
Itit and the interference of excisemen unnecessary.
iit:',STANLEY wished to say a few words as to the
lttbo'll'ties under which the producer of colonial coffee
red when compared with the foreign grower. In
httr, west Indian possessions the production of coffee
withall but ceased. The foreign countries that competed
ael were Arabia, Java, Porto Rico, Cuba, and Bra•
that ?lit the real competition was with Brazil. In all
Mato "elle related to the growth of coffee—in soil, cli•
tage' and labour, Brazil possessed considerable adven-
%ad solver Ceylon. In Ceylon the soil was thin, gravelly
Rt` ;old. Compared with Brazil, the land fit for the
1411 th of coffee in Ceylon was of limited amount, while
tyert,azil there was an unlimited extent of alluvial land.
the h4°lle know that slave labour existed in Brazil, and
liahh" "ed that no sort of labour was so cheap when the
'seyi e °Pinion of the country was not opposed to it. In
ksecrl• where the great mass of the population were
them the greatest difficulty was found in inducing
Ile,ele to labour. Coolies were sometimes employed, but
Bliperihelesl the coffee estates were never more than half
Iteireilied with labour. It appeared from a statement with
iU 0,, ihe had been furnished that the wages of Coolies
thst'll°ll were 00s month, including lodging. To
eoti !eight he added 7s. a
7s. to Bs. as' the price of food. The
traa'illelearing land in Ceylon was much greater then in
aptCeylonll Ceylon it was not less than 31.. while in Brazil it
More than 255. or 30s. an acre. The coffee region in
4448 wits inland and mountainous, and the expense of
Des eNating coffee to the coast varied trona ss. to Bs. 6d.
frotti I', While in Brazil it was only 2s. 2d. The voyage
it eia razil was one of two months, while from Caylon
Brazil of four or five months, and the freight from
ttq. Ana from 27a. to 30s. a ton, while from Ceylon
1444 31., had been 51., and even 71. 10s. a ton. He had
high these facts merely to show the difficulty—he
Net" aknost say the impossibility—of the Ceylon
theif er being, able to compete with the planter of Brazil
dutie •
a on foreign and coesesel coffee were equalised.
has ABOUCHERE did not think that the House
aßei4eiared to uphold protective duties on colonial as
11,,jort et foreign coffee. The present moment, in the opi-
,"'opo pa-411Y, Was favourable to melting the equali,ation
sofa The Hon. Member had alluded to the ad-
Aly which Brazil possessed over Ceylon, in the sup-
e 1/o"tath3 labour. He differed from the opinion which
ho Member entertained on that point. Every. one
knew ad P •
h at attention to what was going on in Brazil
Nkt (31? Insecure the whole system- of sieve labour in
leeillee°,llntry 45.
He regretted that the Hon. Member
iU of soffq to think that it was impossible for the cultivator
e° with free labour to' compete with the cultivator
haaCeantri
Call° " having slave labour. The Hon. Member
tircht to expressed an opinion that a discriminating duty
ceffee 1 " imposed in favour of Ceylon, otherwise the
kt!ln,tations would cease to be cultivated. But that
kr. "Ha, worn-out, and exploded argument.
th ticARDwEL
ase on L, ablution to what had fallen from
'Olt Member for Montrose, said that the practice of
ee had
ttpati,Z4btuint gh Tit not only discouraged the fair
'Rai • au caused a considerable loss to the revenue
tit• I,nlshine the amount of the coffee consumed.
tole said that when he was Chancellor of
e•llAaComplaints were made of the adultera-
_oree tiet-meta and orders were consequently given to en-
tailt e law
old s . • Deputations from the trade then came,
°ma that hoe
who w there were two classes in the tradhe-Te
ttopractit, :ye honest Tad obeyed the law, and
couldt
vt•tl:the adulteration; but they said
Excise regulation which would not interfere
tetle and. that the only course was to place all on
,11:loting, and to suspend the regulation of the
fir,ersxcise wujob prevented adulteration.
't A.XLEY asked why the Government should
‘lO., _
he R-L adulteration in the particular article of coffee?
elllt 'soon' Member for Montrose had said that he could
l'pllttithe;°l'er the difference between coffee and chicory.'
I,°lll th„" was no difficulty in detecting the one article
;(le,, other by the microscope. At present the ills-
lersirg; trailer profited by the proeeedines of the Go-
titatilltitt The Chancellor of the Exchequer ought un-
at gIY to withdraw the minute of 1840. He had
pod ation
thitt . in saying that chicory was unwholesome,
ileicio its constant consumption was attended with i
tkftspea aonlaquences.
E Lordfe'w wor to from Mr. LOCKHART,
tChbur k'" HAMILTON hoped the Chancellor of the
t.o7l;ehirsnlild yield to the advice of the Hon. Mem-
qt, uury. who spoke with some authority on this
teas sate `! withdraw the Treasury minute of 1840. Lie
thole 41'lled thatgentleman professing the free-
Prie a
steald d Ps of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
cobele I, anything
i°lo randule I to favour the consumption of an
nt y sold as another article, and, ae-
%tilts)°, L'° best medical authorities, deleterious in its
ta The nil.
.q.
je were ULLLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
aO4O helie_at..F"nfe medical opinions in favour of chicory.
v,en chicory to be noxious anti deleterious, he
",see3l3"tl_be juistified in doing anything to encourage its
,OMr, A'„n that. was not his belief.
antehien`Lll-LEY said, in explanation, that those who
svith by wholesale adulterated it to a great ex,
h_
wvaarious articles, so that the trader who be-
etrzyt
e°7ii
iTtio only mixing
diwn. :,Twihuheitteeleitihgeehr
ut
ahidlt;iacireny.ai
tiGiree(hlaatisite:rdmi
Gentleman
44.1°K4aticell
.t,t °r of the Exchequer had suffered from in-
n. Right
seam he (Mr. Wakley) feared very much
ill`datigat,r,•-°n• Gentleman's coffee was too strong—
R,htttic,4 )47:nd that his illness was owing to his hay-
Ale resolution .much of an unwholesome ingredient. -Angus la4B then put and agreed to.

Mr. BERNAL then read the reedutien on the timber
duties, which wes passed without a discussion.
The House then resumed,
The CHAIRMAN reported progress. Report to be
received to-morrow (this day).
SUPPLY.—THE NE W HOUSE OF CO:UNIONS.
On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Sir DE LACY EVANS, pursuant to notice, called
the attention of the House to the present condition of
the new House cf Commons. His Noble Friend the
Member for Bsth had recently put some questions on
that subject which had drawn his attention to it, and in
consequence he (Sir De L. Evans) bad paid a visit to
the new House of Commons, where he con'eesed he had
been much eurpri-ed by seeing the progress made and
making in that which was called the ornamental por-
tion of the House. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had put a stop to all that work for the present, and he
thought the Howie ought to be very much obliged to
him for it. The Hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr.
Greene) had, it appeared, gone out of town for a few
days, and Mr. Barry, the architect, had thereupon sit
about carrying on his notions of ornament. There were
introduced innumerable painted shields and gilded carv-
ings, notwithstanding it had been well understood that
the place was to be as plain as possible, and furnishing
as marked a contrast as might be with the gorgeous, and
, gaudy ornaments of the House of Lords.—(Hear, hear.)
Instead of the chamber being like one for the delibera-
, :ion of men of the 19th century, it was more like the in-
terior of a monastery of the 16th. When remedying
a defect in the House with respect to facility of
hearing in it—a matter which should have been
originally considered and calculated on—it had
been found necessary to lower the ceiling, and in doing
that the windows had been half closed, thereby injuring
the light of the House. He hoped the Hon. Member
for Lancaster would be able to tell them how all those
changes occurred. He understood that the architect
alleged that he never understood the House to express
any opinion upon this matter ; but if it was not formally
expressed, he maintained that such an opinion was im-
plied. The architect, however, having been entrusted
with the construction of the Houses of Parliament,
thought he was more responsible to posterity for his
work than to the present generation.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to know also whether the 8,5001.
voted last year for the expense of the alterations was a
sufficient sum for that purpose, or whether it had been
exceeded?
Mr. GREENE said, with respect to the sum alluded
to, Mr. Barry had been required by the Commissioners
to make an account; but as the work had not bsen yet
finished and measured it would he impossible to say
what was the exact amount expended. In reply to the
question of the Gallant Officer he should say that it was
his impression when he left London that the House of
Commons should be finished in the plainest possible
manner, and with as Great a contrast to the House of
Lords as possible.—(Hear.) On that subject he had re-
ceived a written communication from Mr. Barry, in which
he had stated that he was not aware of any particular wishes
of the House with respect to the internal decoration of the
new House. He (Mr. Greene), however, confessed that he
had been surprised at the nature of the work proceeded
with, and was thankful to the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer for having stopped the work. Tee ceiling was
eo far finished that they did not think they would be
.justi-
fled in scraping it off; and with respect to the shields
hung round the House, their judgment had been sus-
pended until the lower part was finished. He confessed
ho did not approve of the course adopted by the Com-
mittee. He thought the House would have been le.tter
if' left as it was, having only widened the galleries.
flare would be ne want of hearing then in his opinion.
In the matter of light, however, ha did not conceive
there would be any difficulty. They never felt want of
light in the present Housed But, indeed, the greater part
of their business was carried on by candle-light.
Mr. WAKILEY asked whether any instructions,
printed or written, had been sent to Mr. Barry with re-
spect to the decorations of the House?
Mr. GREENE said no such instructions had been
issued.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
when the experimental roof had been resolved on it was
not intended to have it ornamented. Indeed he under-
stood that the whole of the building was to be as plain
as possible, and that no further decoration was to be
introduced. However, when he found it had been other-
wise, he at once gave orders to have a stop put to the
work.—(Hear.)
Sir B. HALL said a distinct understanding existed
that the estimates furnished for the proposed alterations
were not to be exceeded. The arms to be introduced in
some of the shields, he understood, were to be the bo-
roughs of England. Now, as he represented a not un-
important one—ef hich, however, not being a corporation,
had no arms—(Laughter)—he would not regret if that
plan were abandoned. He thought that the alterations
would be found to be satisfactory; but the question then
arose when the Members were to occupy the new House?
—(Hear, hear.) The longer they were out of it the
greater the expense would be.—(Hear.)
Mr. GREENE said he had been informed there was
a possibility of going into the new House after the
Whitsuntide recess; but the walls of the lobbies and
passages might not be perfectly dry by that time. There
was also for their consideration the fact that the library
and other necessary apartments which they would want
ere still unfinished. He did not think it would be quite
convenient to them to occupy the House before next
session.

Sir D. NORREYS denied that Mr. Barry had ever
received any instructions with respect to the ornament
of the House. As they had adopted a certain style with
respect to architecture, they should have the details
and ornaments carried out in a similar taste, otherwise
they would be acting in a most absurd manner. As the
House had chosen to adopt this style of architecture,
Mr. Barry was quite right in adopting the style of
decoration in unison with it, and had therefore been
improperly stopped. Ha was not Mr. Barry's advo-
cate—he believed Mr. Barry had committed more
faults than any other architect—(Hear, and laughter)—
but he considered as Mr. Barry had perfected himself in
that style of education which the country had prescribed
he ought not to be censured for carrying out its prin-
ciple. He differed from the opinion of the Hon. Member
for Lancaster about the uncoloured heraldic decorations.
He was at a loss to conceive how the idea of heraldic
decorations was to be carried out without using colour.
He did not agreed with the Honourable Member (Sir
De Lacy Evans) with respect to the fault he found about
the decorations. He believed the decorations to be
suitable, and in character with the design of the build-
ing. He would call the attention of the House to the
wording of the motion of the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Westminster. The words of the motion went to im-
pugn the professional reputation of the architect em-
pleycd by that House, inasmuch as the motion would
lead persons to believe that the architect was acting in
opposith nto the wishes of the House and the nation.
Ile considered it was not fair towards Mr. Barry to
create such an impression.
Lord DUNCAN said if colouring was necessary, then
Hon. Members had good reason to be dissatisfied with
the House prepared for their reception last year. Then
there was no colouring used; now, colouring was in pro-
fuion. He wanted to know where the expense was to
end? The first estimate was for about half a million;
that sum had extended to more than two millions, and
the Houses were not finished yet. He had been looking
over soma estimates lately, and the first item that struck
him was the expense of the Orange-street Water Works,
for furnishing with water the new Houses of Parlia-
meat, when finished. He found that the supply was to
be 260,000 gallons per day while the House was sitting,
aid 160 000 for the time when the House was not sitting.
Tho supply was a larger supply than a town of 14,000
inhabitants required.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME had, some time ago, urged the House to
dismiss Mr. Barry. After upwards of two millions had
been spent the works appeared to be as far as ever from
completion. As long as Mr. Barry could get money
fur alterations there would be no end to the expense.
The Hon. Member (Sir D. Nerreys) had let out the
secret—Mr. Barry had to finish his education.—(No.)
He understood the Hon. Member to say something to
that effect. But he mast remind the House his pre-
dictions respecting Mr. Barry had been fulfilled. He
said years ago, if Mr. Barry was not controlled he would
construct the House of Commons in the same gewgaw
style as he had constructed the House of Lords. The
House was properly served for not taking effectual steps
on the subject at the time he gave that warning. He
did not, however, exclusively blame Mr. Barry; ho
blamed the Committee even more for not having all the
estimates before them before they incurred the endless
expense.
Colonel RAWDON said he had been requested by
Mr. Barry to place his answer to the various complaints
before the House. The Hon. and Gallant Member read
the following letter:—
" Mr. Barry has not been made acquainted with any
declared wishes on the part of the Members of the
House as to the decorations of the new House of Com-
mons, and knows nothing of the existence of such a
declaration collectively or individually. Mr. Barry is
not persisting in carrying into effect the ' so-called' in-
ternal decorations of the House, which was suspended
on its being objected to by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. Heraldry is absolutely essential to the charac-
ter and the full expression of the Tudor style of
the design adopted by Parliament, and it is the only
means of giving historic interest to it, which, in a great
national edifice devoted to the purpose of the New Palace
at Westminster, is most desirable for many reasons. A
display of heraldry and suitable historic decorations has
elways formed an essential feature of the design and esti-
mates of the building, sanctioned by Parliament, and I
have never received any intimation, either written or
verbal, to forego the use of it."
Ile supposed, therefore, that all these decorations had
ban sanctioned by Parliament, and that he was justified
in what he was now doing.
Sir R. INGLIS admitted the original estimate was
1 eml tut sle eh d ibelown those t woeasutd;ma halfte, millions • 'out expenses not
hadin-
property, banelt
bankment
the purchase of'
, for a high tower to promote ventilation, for
a façade, richer and more extensive than that of any
for the erectiona n e
nio-f
other building in any other country in Europe. He be-
lieved tho money already expended was not more than
half the sum stated. It was due to Mr. Barry to state
that he was correct in his original estimates, and that he
h-o• Lea -5
to .. incurred—for .
had not dealt with twice as much as the sum put down in
his estimates. He denied that the House had ever ex-
pressed a formal opinion, and there was nothing on the
journals of the House to show it, on the subject of the
decoration of the House. He felt it due to Mr. Barry's
reputation to make this statement.
Lord C. HAMILTON recalled the attention of the
Hon. Baronet to the statement just made that a con-
versatien had passed between Mr. Barry and the Chan-
! seller of the Exchequer on the subject of the decora-
-1 tions. It was not exec Sly proper, although he admitted
the tenderness that ought to prevail in speaking of a
' gentlemen in his absence, to hold out to the House a
istatement that because no formal resolution appeared on
the journals the architect was justified in persisting in