The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-15 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, AuGusr 14.

The SPEAKER resumed the chair at a qu trter-past five
o'clock.
Mr. Preston brought up certain returns from the India
House, which were ordered to be laid on the table.
A message from the L rds summoned the Speaker to
the htr of the Upper House, to bar the Royal assent
given by commission to several Bills.
On the return of the Right Hon Gentleman he read to
the House a ,list of the Bills that had been assented to by
the Crown, but in so low a voice as to be inaudible in the
gallery.
Mr. FITZGERALD presented a petition from a Cap-
tain Matthew., a prisoner for debt in Dublin, in favour of
the Bill for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors.
BOROUGH OF CAMBRIDGE.

Sir T. FREMANTLE rose to make the motion of
which he bad given notice respecting the seat in that
House for the borough of Cambridge. He could assure
the House in general as well as the Hon. Member (Mr.
Pryme) whom his motion individually concerned, that he
entered upon the question with no feelings whatever of an
invidious or personal nature; on the contrary, he felt great
regret upon the subject; but having moved for certain
papers which, now that they were produced, appeared to
him to make out the case, he felt himself bound in duty to
pursue the subject, and le ye it to the House to act as in
its wisdom it might think fit.—(Here the Hon. Member
was interrupted by the announcement of a message from
the Lords. The message having been received, with
certain Bills to which the Peers had given their assent,
the messengers retired, and the Hon. Baronet proceeded
with his speech.) He reallly thought the papers now
before the House constituted a case against the Hon.
Member for Cambridge. It must be within the
recollection of all whom he had the honour to
address that two sessions ago the whole system
of the Bankruptcy Laws of the kingdom was entirely
altered ; new courts were estaitlislied, with new Judges,
new Commissioners, new Registrars, and a variety of new
officers. The Bill had been brought down from the other
House, and the Commons, ever anxious to provide against
any increase in the undue influence of the Crown, had in-
troduced a clause under which he would maintain that the
Hon. Member far Cambridge had forfeited his seat. By
the 69th clause of the Bill it was enacted that no
Judge, Comosissionci, Reghwar, Deputy Registrar. or
Secretary of the Bankruptcy Courts, and that no official
assignee, or other person whatever appointed by virtue of
that Act, should, during the continuance of that office, be
capable of being elected to, or of sitting as a Member of,
that House. Another clause, the 14th, related to the
Commissioners for certain districts in different parts of the
country. The Judges who went the different circuits were
to be directed by the Lord Chancellor to return to his
Lordship the names of such barristers, solicitors, and
attorneys as they should think fit and proper persons to
act under the Bankrupt Act, and, these being approved by
the Lori Chancellor, his Lordship should appoint in ro-
tation from the top of the list the different gentleuien to
be Commissioners. After this came a provision in the
Act that it should be lawful for the Lord Chancellor to
remove any person from the list for any cause or causes
which he might think proper; so that these Commis-
sioners were not only appointed by the Lord Chancellor,
but they held their appointments at his will aml pleasure.
Having stated the law upon the subject, helrhad only
to show that the Hon. Member for Cambridge came
within the provisions of the first of the claus,s which be
had read, and it would hallow that he was a person inca-
pable of sitting as a Member of that House. He had moved
for certain returns, and the first of those which had been laid
on the table of that House was the commission appointing
the Hon. Member for the Cambridge districts. The
Judge on the circuit having returned to the Lord Chan-
cellor the list of fit and proper persons, the Lord Chancellor
had directed his secretary to write to the barristers and
solicitors who were on the list. Such a letter had been
written to the Hon. Member for Cambridge in March.
The Hon. Gentleman had acquiesced, and his appointment
was acted upon with as little delay as possible. He (Sir
T. FrenP.iitle) contended that the Hon. and Learned
Membs:x was duly appointed to the office, which rendered
it iNegal that he should continue to sit in that House.
'He (Sir T Fremantle) held in his hand a letter from an
attorney which fully corroborated the fact. The attorney
had written to requsst that a fist might he made out, and
that the case might be directed to the Commission of which
the Hon. Member was the head ; but at the same time he
desired that Mr. Pryme might not be one of the Commis-
sioners that heard the case. He had been told at the
B dikrupt Office that he must have Mr. Pryme. The
attorney, therefore, called on the Honourable Member
for Cambridge at his house, in order to eive him no
tice of the motion, and the Honourable Gentleman sent
him down word that be could not attend because he
was obliged to go to a meeting at St. Ire, (Huntingdon).
- Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was called upon
publicly to act as Commissioner. He had also in his
hand an affidavit made by a gentleman of the Court of
Review. It appearei that great inconvenience bad been
felt by the public in the Bankruptcy Court on account of
the conduct of the Hun. Member. When the Commission
met, the quorum not being present, it was found impos-
sible to do anything in the case, and application had been
made to the Court of Review to appoint a day for the
bankrupt to surrender. After a considerable delay the
day was appointed, and the commission was gone
into. The Hon. Member all this time never repudiated
the office, and was actually in possession of it till the 6th
of July, when he took the trouble to resign it. He con-
tended that the acceptance of the office, and being in the
office, even without the performance of any duty, vacated
the seat in Parliament. The Legislature had passed
the clause to check the influence of the Crown, and
he contended that such influence was complete when
the office was accepted. In page 61 of Hatsel vol. 2,
it was laid down that consenting to take office was
within the meaning of the law that vacated the seat. Even
the kissing of hands, on which new write were ordered,
was deemed evidence of the acceptance of an appointment.
There was no kissing of hands in the present case, but
there was what was much stronger. He knew that there
was the case of Mr. Thomas Wyndham, who had kissed
hands on his appointment as Gmlanissioner of Customs,
and yet held his seat in Parliament. This was a mistaken
kiss for it turned out that the design of Sir Robert Wal-
pole was that be should be got rid of or got out of the
way, by being sent to the Board of Customs in Scotland ;
and Mr. Wyndham declared that he had kissed h Inds f.r
a place in England, and would not go out of the kingdom.
Here, however, the consenting to accept was a complete
acceptance under the Statute. It might be contended that
the Hon. Member for Cambridge being now out of office,
it was too late to take notice of the case. He should
hope that this doctrine would never be laid down in that
House—that a Member might accept an office incom-
patible with his Parliamentary duties, and might bold it,
and escape, if he could contrive to resign before the blot
was hit. He trusted that the House, setting aside all
party feeling, would enter heartily into the case, and he
should take the liberty of moving that a new writ be.,

George Prytne, Esq., who bad accepted office under the
new Bankrupt /awe.
The 'Wartime of CHANDOS seconded the motion.
Mr. PRYME said that the Hon. Member seemed to
assume that the ecceptance of what he was pleased to
term office would force him to vacate his seat; hut lie
(Mt. Prattle) contended slutt be might have acted under
the fiat without occasioning any vacancy. The Hon.
Member here proceeded to argue that the Act of William
IV. diet not consider the office he had held as that or 1 Com-
missioner, inasmuch as its words were "acting as a Com-
missioner." wage a distinction between the Commis-
sioners in London and persons acting le Commissioners in
the count, y. By the old laws Commissioner* were appointed
under the Great Seal, and they were thus appointed under
the Act of Will am the Fourth, whilst persons " acting as
Crimmissionete" were appointed under the fiat of the
Lord Chancellor. He contended, ther.fare, that tie
place which he had f eld did not come under
the title of a Commissioner,. which would have
obliged him to vacate his se.t. . Now the Commis-
sieners under the Act 6 George the Fourth, never had
received any salary, and what they did receive was for
feei from bankrupts' estates. nut leaving that part of
the case, and ceming to that which related to the *weep-
tance of effice, he contended that the acting as a Coin-
missien-r was not intended to disqualify a person from
sitting in Pariament. He had written a letter. to the
Lord Ceaticellor, after hi. name had appeared in the fiat,
in which he had stated to him that, understanding his
Lord-hip intended to direct his name to be put oft the list
of country Commissioners. he thought it letter, as a eloubt
existed whether his acceptance of such office weuld disc
qualify him from sitting in the House of Commons, at
once to decline the office. This, ti on, surely could net
be construed into a resignation of the office which had
been offered him. He had done nothing under this Act,
he had taken no fees, and had never officiated in the
situation which had been off-red him.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would contend that
his Hon. and Learned Freud was not a Gemmieseioner
within the meaning of this Act. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman having entered into a long legal
argument upon the 7th and Bth clauses of the Act to
prove that this was the cote, arid that no acceptance of
office had taken place in the case of his Honourable and
Learned Friend, observed that the situation referred to
was of such a nature that the Lord Chencellor might
erase the name of his Hon. and Learned F, 'end froze the
list of the fiat of to-day on the following merning. Bitt
his Hon. and Learned Friend hail never upon any ens oc-
casion acted in a manner to constitute an acceptance of
the office, and he surely hail the hensfit of tl,e locus peni-
tentice till he should have taken the oath prescribed tiv
the Act. Though his name had la en put with four others
upon the fiat his name had never been placed upon a
summons, so that nothing had actually been done which
could call for the forfeiture of his seat.
Mr. HERRIES said that the Hon. and Learned
Attorney-General had argued that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had not been appointed under the Act; but
by returns laid before the House the name of Geer gin
Pryme appeared amongst those appointed to office. Mr.
Prytne had been appointed by his own will, and be held
the office and resigned it only because he thought it might
disqualify him from sitting in that House. The pr-sent
only doubt was as to the fact of the Hon. Gentleman
having accepted office; of the appointment there could
be no doubt. It had been argued that the Hon. Gen-
tleman bad never acted under this Act, and that he had
received no emolument under it. Now, whether any
emolument hid been received or not, the Parlia-
mentary law was the same. But it had been said too
that if the Hon. Gentleman had accepted his office he
was not in possession of that office now. Under the
circumstances it was clear that the Hon. Gentleman had
vacated his seat, and be could not keep it without being
re-elected.
The SOLICITOR. GENERAL proceeded to argue
that Mr. Pryme had never been in office, and if be had been
in office, he would not thereby have forfeited his seat.
Mr. Pryme, he contended, was not a Commissioner
within the meaning of the Act. Now one set of Com-
missioners was appointed under the Crown with salaries
of 1,500/. a-year each, and they were called upon to
devote themselves to the public businass. Those
persons were disqualified from sitting in that House.
There was another set of Commissionere, who were not
appointed by the Crown, who were recommended by the
Judges, whose names were put upon a writ by the Lord
Chancellor, who issued his fiat accordingly. These Corn-
missioners were paid by small fees out of the estates of
bankrupts, and he maintained that the Act of Parlia-
ment did not apply in this case. The Hon. and Learned
C•eatnenee is.seee rutuucd hie 1.5.1
length, observed that an officer of this Courtemeee-efene-
cessity be appointed by his own consent. Mr. Pryme
had not resigned office, because, when it was tendered to
him, he at once said, " I will not accept it, and some
other Judge must be appointed."
Mr. HARVEY would oppose the motion of the Hon.
Baronet, though he should do soon different grounds from
those tak nby the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He
was neither a Commissioner nor an officer under the
Act, and therefore could not vacate his seat. He was
net at all appointed under this Act. His former office
was merely continued to him, and this Act only regulated
the mode of appointment.
Mr. HARDY contended that Mr. Pryme was to all
intents and purposes a Commissioner under this Act from
the moment the fiat issued, the fiat having, in fact, all the
authority of a commission under the Great Seal.
Mr. AGLIONBY thought he could not be considered a
Commissioner under the particular clause.

Mr. HA LCOMB said the clause was a penal one, and
therefore ought to be interpreted strictly.
Sir T. FREMANTLE regretted that so many com-
mon law lawyers took a part in the discussion. Mr.
Speaker Ouslow said that common law lawyers knew
little of Parliamentary law, and if one of them should
ever be appointed to the Chair the authority and dignity
of the House of Commons would be at an end.
The motion was negatived without a division.
SUPPLY —MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
Mr. S. RICE moved the order of the day fur the
House going into a Committee of Supply.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. HU.%IE said the S ilicitor-General yesterday ex-
pressed a douht as to the number of persons imprisoned for
selling cheap publications under the Stamp Act. He
(hired that they ao.ounted to 300. He could now inform
Vie Hon. and Learned Gentleman that they were upwards
of 400. The number in the two last retains made to the

•-
Howie was 385. He believed it was-the Stamp office,
and not the Government, that directed thee prosecutions
in many of the c 'ties. But why leave the law as ii w oi?
Such proceedings were no credit to the Whigs. Hr must
84 the conduct of the Tories in this respect was far
better than theirs, for one-half the number of such prose.
cations were not instituted under the Tory Government.
Looking at the professions they made before coming into
office, and their actions since, they ought to be ashamed

of them elves. It was true that etre'n g opinions were

expressed in some of these cheap publications, but, con.

shirring the excitement occasioned by the Reform Bill,
some allowance should be made for this. The session
should not be allowed to close without bringing in a
Bill to repeal the Six Acts. Out of doors the strongest
feelings were expressed because Ministers did not act up
to their professions upon the subject when out of office.
Lord ALT HORP said the greitest number of these
prosecutions were not instituted under the Six Acts nor

—by the Stamp-office, but under an Act of Geroge 11.,
which was brought into execution by common informers.
The only way he saw to put a stop to such prosecutions,
was by repealing the stamp duty on newspapers. What
they opposed in the Six Acts, were the recognizatices and
the punishment of seven years' transportation. His
opinions upon these Acts were the same now as th,-y
were then. Several of these Acts had expired, and he
hoped ere long :lame means would be found of removing
the present ground of complaint.
Mr. HUME said papers were commonly handed about
the streets, headed in these terms :—" Victims to the

atrocious Six Acts. Effect of odious Whig tyranny."
Mr. COBBETT said at present, in consequence of the
odious Six Acts, no paper containing news could be
published without a stamp, oftener than once a month.
This, of course, increased the price of newsp +pets, arid
gave rise to these cheap publications. The Act was made
on purpose for him (Mr. Cobtiett). Now that the cause
of the Act had ceased, why nut repeal it? It did him nu
h irm, for he increased the price of his paper. The present
session should not be allowed to pass without repe hog it.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the Stamp-office
had no more to do with the matter than the Attorney or
S licitor-General. He believed all these prosecutions
arose fi om the Act of George 11., alluded to by
his Noble
Friend.

the
en'eAreecto.veTryh ted questionti the s, under
hlvi 7hheat d
to put wa., whether i war. intended to stay TITHES.
Mr. BLANIIRE to put a queBtio° CO the Hun.
and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor-General). A great
CwuausretalolefaELxcohrde qien for
rd
v
number of proceedings bad been lately insticuttd in the
any fur,her
proteet • 1 igs of this kind until such time as a Gunposition
Act was brom4ht in, al .mused by the Government?
E
The SOLICITOII-GERAL siid the Act of Lord
c u'ete
Cumtnissioners, of whom he Wits one. Ti.. L-
t•riterd,. was trained upon a report of the Real Prop

temente a great cause of grievance arising from the principle
vellum tempts occurritecclesice. It never entered into the
contemplation of the Commissioners to lay any ground for
the grievance now complained of. A clause, however, was
introduced in the other House of Parliament, &lowing one
year from the passing of the Act within which claims of this
nature might be made, and it was with great pain he
heard that thousands of such claims were now advanced
from every parish. He knew not what could be done to
put a stop to so tremendous an evil, a course likely to be
more injurious to the Church than any which could he
devisA even by those who were desirous to put it down
altogether. It appeared to him that tithe commutation
should proceed on the principle uti possidetis, on engage-
ments set*, as they existed for the last sixty years.
Mr. COBBETT said an Act might now be brought in
to st',y these proceedings, as bad been done in 1820.
`Mr. WARBURTON said there were five or six thou.
sand actions of this kind, and whole counties were in a
fiame. They might he stopped by an announcement from
the Government that any Act of commutation would be
antedated.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the county of Monmouth was
thrown into the greatest alarm by these proceedings.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether there was not a
meeting of Bishops early in the Session, at which this
course was recommended °
Lord ALTHORP never heard of it, and could hardly
believe it possible.
Mr. BLAMIRE expressed his determination to proceed
with the Bill, of which he gave notice.
'MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.

The SPEAKER having left the chair,
Mr. S. RICE said the vote he was now ahout to pro-
pose amounted altogether to the sum of 2,189,7171.
Compered with the estimates for 1832 there would ap-
pear a diminution of 561,1321.. and compared with those
of 1831, the diminution was 1,156 0001., about one third
of the whole. This was the first time in which there ap-
peared no vote for army extraordinaries. The vote for
army extraordinaries was one at the discretion mercy of
the Government, and it was desirable that votes of that
kind should be got rid of as much as possible. The sum
voted under the head of army extraordinaries in 1830 was
'120.000 ; in 1831, 550,000/. ; and in 1832, 240.000/.;
and now there was no occasion to ask for a farthing—
(Hear)—the vote of 1832 being sufficient to cover the ex-
peroliture of the following year under this head.
The first vo;e was then proposed :—For the Commis-
sariat tleparment, up to the Ist March, 1834. 290.305/.
Mr. HUNIE was glad to see that the various items were
now arranged under their proper head.. He often recom-
mended this, and the risult proved that it might easily he
done. From the papers corm-cted with the Civil List
now upon the table it would appear that there was a sum
of 500,000/ nut immediately connec•el with the personal
expendi.ure of the Sovereign irranged under the proper
heads Will reference to the Commissariat expenses, lie
hoped his Majesty's Government would next year allow
that subject to undergo the investigation of a Committee
up stairs. He was sure that considerable reductions would
be the r suit of such an inves,ieation. Fur instance, for
about four thousand troops in Canada there were neatly
forty Commissariat eletks employ, d to superintend the
accounts and distribution of provisions. That number,
he thought, was far too great. In Nova Scotia, Van
Diemen's Land, and New South Wales the same com-
plaint as to a needless numbet of Commissaries and Cool.
111,984 Ty clerks would lie. Generally speaking, these
eviniates were lower then those co previous years.
_ _

Mr. S. RICE observed that the Commissariat Esta-
bli.htnent of Canasta ha,i been lowered from thirty-seven
to thirty-four since last year, and that of New Sundt
Wales from twenty-three to twenty. The Commisaaries
of these colonies had much more important duties to
perform than the Hon. Gentlemm seemed to imagine.
They had the whole accounts of the colonies to super-
intend.
Mr. HUME explained.

COBBETT wished to know what Canada cost
this country ? He feared that all the money laid out on
that country was thrown away, for that some day it would
b. joined to the United States.

Mr. S. RICE referred the Hon. Gentleman to a work
on statistical details which had 'Ten laid on the table of
the House, as cont,ii, inz the best answer that could be
given to the question f the Hon. Gentleman.
The vote was men agreed to.
The next vote was for 51,9831. 15s. 44., for Half-
pay, Superannuation Pensions, and Cotnpassionate Al-
lowances.

Mr. O'DWYER wished to know whether it was in-
tended to pant any pension or allowance to the Irish
Waeenn Train lately di•banded?

Mr. S RICE said that the Irish Waggon Train did
DOE come within the rules under which superannuations
when the corps was disbanded.

Air. COBBETT could not understand why these Corn

missariats, who were only clerks, sliou'd have half-pay,

. .
There might he some reason for giving halt-pay to those
who fought the battles of the country, and incurred the
risk of life and limb ; but there could be none for paying
Government clerks for the whole of their lives, and after
they bad done their work, so long as that was not the
custom with private merchants and gentlemen.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was 46,000/. for works and
repairs of public buildings, and maintenance of Royal
palaces and gardens, heretofore chat ged on the Civil Lig.
Mr. HUME thought this vote raised the question of
how many palaces the country was to pay for. He
wished to know why Kew Palace and Hampton Court
were to be kept up when they were no longer occupied by
the Royal Family ? Persons were living in them to be
sure ; hut why were palaces to be kept for such persons ?
Excepting Windsor and Buckingham Palaces, what others
were wanted? At present they had Windsor, and Hamp-
ton, and Kew, and Brighton, Buckingham Palace, St.
Jamos's, and Kensington. Surely all these could not be
waned, and it was a great expense to keep them up.
He hoped next Session a Committee to inquire into this
suhject would he appointed.
Air. YOUNG a-ked for an explanation of the vote of
2,600/. for Whitehall Chapel. He understood it was
intended to turn that building into a Gallery for Pictures.

Lord DUNCANNON said the Estimate was befiire the
House long before the idea of converting Whitehall Cha-
pel to the purposes of a National Gallery.
Lord G. SOMERSET hoped an appropriate place of
worship would be erected for the accommodation of the
congregation usually resorting to Whitehall Chapel.
Lord DUNCANNON said it was fully intended to
erect an appropriate place of worship in lieu of Whitehall
Chapel. He understood it was well adapted for a Picture
Gallery.
Mr. BRISCOE thought the vote too large. He there-
fore proposed as an amendment that they should reduce it
by 6,0001., making the entire vote 41,000/.
Nlr. S. RICE said that in the year 1831 this vote was
66,0001. ; in 1832 it was 57,000/. ; and this year it was
only 46 0001 There had teen, then, a reduction amount-
ing to 20,0001. in this one vote in the course of three
years. This did not show an extraordinary spirit of ex-
travaeance in the Ciovernmen.. Hon Members must re-
collect that in the discussion on the Ctv,l List three palaces
were agreed to be withdrawn until the Civil List, in order
to tiling them more itnmeoiately under the review and
control of that House. The result had•been the diminu-
tion he had stated; and solely the Hon. Gentleman could
not persist in his motion, which was in fact a censure on
Government, under these circumstances. These palaces
were the great hereditary mansions of the Crown, and
ought not to be thrown down ignominiously or sustained
in a spirit of nigeat illy economy.

Mr. COBBETT was not inclined to vote f r the amend-
ment. lie would lather have one word of promi-e from
the Noble Lott] in favour of future econorny.—(Hear.)
He believed, indeed he knew, the taste of the people of this
country was to give the Royal Fancily all means of suitable
dignity and magnificence.—( Hear, hear.) The people, he
wis sure, would rather work an extra d.,y than see
H tmpt.,n Court or any of the ancient mansions of Royalty
pulled down. Bot Pimlico Palace w.oi not an ancient
minsion. The mat bl arch, which cost 75,000/., was
not an ancient erection, but a most extravagant modern
one. It was things of this kind that made the peuple
angry and mate them condemn toe Gove, ntnent.

LOrd ALTHORP assisted the Hon. Member for 0:d.
ham that the utmost ,conotny would be observed in ke,p-
nig up the ancient palaces of the country. The Hon.
Get:tleman, he could assure him, need not fear the erec-
tion of any such ornaments as that he had referred to.—
(Hear, hear.) It was not the wish of his Majesty that
any thing of the kind should be erected—(Hear)—and it
was not the wish o. any of i.is Maje.ty's Ministers.
Lord DUNCANNON said that it had been his Ma.
jesty's wish that the marble archway should be removed;
and he (Lord Duncannon) had taken steps accordingly for
that put pose. But when he bound fly the estimate that
it would cost 20,0001. to pull it down he certainly hat
larsitated..—(Hear.)
Mr. C FERGUSSON thought that some better atten
tion ought to be paid to Westminster Hall, which was in
a state hi hly disgraceful to the country.
Lord DUNCANNON said that the intention of putting
Westminster H,II in a proper state of repair had been
postponed in consequence of toe av,itated alterations of lat
House, which alterations might, in some measure, have
included Westminster Hall.

Sir It. LNGLIS thought that molt of the argument)

of Hon. Gentlemen in opposition to this vote proceeded on
the fallacy that the Crown had been liberally dealt with.
Now he contended that this was not the case. The
Crown had given up much to the country, but it had
gained nothing. From the period that the hereditary
revenues of the Crown had been exchanged for a fixed
sum, from 1762 to 1830, the produce had been
91,871,427/. The amount received by the Crown,
according to the bargain made at the commencement of
each reign, in the same period, was 65,000 0001. The
balance, therefore, in favour of the people was 29,000,000/.
—( Hear, hear.) That being the case, he hoped the Hon.
Member (Mr. Briscoe) would not continue to complain
of 40,0001. being paid for keeping up ancient palaces of
the country. The amount, indeed, for that purpose was
only 20,0001. out of the present vote. Then the Hon.
Member seemed to intimate that the King ought to seP
the fruit out of his royal gardens.—(Much laughter, and
an emphatic "No," from Mr. Briscoe.) He (Sir R.
Inglis) at all events, was not singular in his impression
that such was the nature of the hint of the Hon. Gentle-
man. Now, he had heard of some great people selling
cabbages.—(Laughter. )
Mr. BRISCOE rose, and with much warmth de-
nied that lie had ever desired anything of the kind.
Nothing could have been more foreign from his thoughts.
Sir R. INGLIS was glad to bear the di.claimet of the
lion. Gentleman. With respect to the marble archway
he did not mean to justify it ; but he must observe that it
was by such works that the poor had been clothed, and
the hungry fed, and the labourer kept in employment, for
many years when they had no other chance of gaining a
livelihood.—(Hear.) Much money had been spent in this
country for such purposes, and it was always one source of
consolation to set against extravagance. The intention of
the Noble Lord with respect to the National Gallery would
afford great regret to every man in England who had any
love of the arts.
Sir C. BURRELL contended that a more unappropriate
place than Whitehall Palace could not be found for a Na-
tional Gallery. To light the ball it would be necessary to
destroy or injure the beautiful painted ceiling.
Mr. BRISCOE said there were other sources of the
Crown from which these expenses ought to be defrayed.
The annual repairs of palaces were charged at 20,0001.,
and he thought a reduction of 6,000/. might be m ide.
The subject next session ought to be referred to a Com-
mittee.

Lord ALTHORP could make no such promi,e, but
Ministers were doing all they could to 'educe the expen-
diture am much as possible.
An HoN. MEMBER. amid.t all the inquiries about
palaces, would ask his lU..jesty's Government whet, er
•here was any intention to improve the state of the Fleet
Prison?

LAIUB said that the power of investigating the
stwe of prisons was vested in the visiting magistrates, and
not in the Secretary of State.

Lord DUNCANNON, with reference to the National
Gallery, said that in order to preserve the national pic-
tures, some course must be taken, and if Whitehall was
not fit for the purpose, alterations would he made, the
smaller sum would be taken from Parliament, and the
surplus returned to the benefit of the public.
The reduced vote of 43,370/. was then put and carried
without a division.

The next vote was that a sum not exceeding 2,6711. be
granted to defray the expense at Brighton Palace.
The votes were then :-15,7201. for the expenses of
Kingstown harbour ; 2,499/. for P rt Patrick hirhour ;
4 576/. for D.inaghadee harbour ; 3,9511. for Holyhead
and Liverpool roads; 24 0001 for the new buildings at
the British Museum ; 40,0001. for the repairs and altera-
tions of Windsor Castle.
Upon the latter vote being put,

COBBETT said that there were now 10,000 per-
sons in gaol for fiscal exactions, and yet 40,0001 a year
was voted for this palace. Members ought to he ashamed
of themselves, and if the people could not protect them-
selves by peaceable means, they ought to defend themselves
by force.

Mr. S. RICE said that the assertion of the Hon.
Member respecting 10,000 men in g tol on fisc •1 oros.cu-
tions was a gloss and deliberate mis-statement. He defied
him to prove his assertion, and could not but reprove the
Hon. Member for his indiscretion.
Mr. COBBETT believed that there were more than
10,000 persons in pi icon in consequence of the pressure of
taxation, and he would prove it when the documents were
produced.
Sir H VERNEY ilefend,d the grant.
Mr. HUME regretted tie warmth which the Right
Hon. Secretary to the Treasury bad evinced in his obser-
vations upon the remarks made by the Hon. Alem'er for
Oldham. He had himself stated his objections to this
grant—he had stated it as strongly as man could do—he had
..,ted it himself on In tow He mu:twitted ti .e
grant to Windsor Castle because it went to finish a work
which could not be left incomplete. He thought that the
Hon. Member for Oldham was somewhat in error in his
estimate of the number of persons in gaol upon revenue

proce•s.,s.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought that the assertion of
the Hon. Member for Oldham called for a positive contra.
diction.

Mr. ROBINSON did not think the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had evinced too olue'l warmth ; and he must ob-
serve that the Linn. Member for Oldham was too much in
the habit of assuming to 'Atwell all the philanthropy of
the House, and he begged to ask why he should presume to
arrogate to himself an exclusive regard for the poor ? Now
he (Mr. Robinson) would yield to no man in a desire to
relieve the poor and labouring classes from every possible
charge which should pr,-ss upon them. The Hon. Gen-
tleman reprobated the general tenor of the conduct of the
lion. Member for Oldham in that House, and suggested
that something was due to those Hun. Gentlemen who
sat in that House when he said that they ought to be
ashamed to leave that House after the vote mich they
had just agreed to.

COBBETT said he bplieved that his Majesty's Go.
veroment were sincere in their wish to effect reductions
but this they could not do while they kept up the presen

system.

Mr. RICHARD POTTER had no wish to oppose

the vote; but begged to call the attention of the Right
Hon. Gent'eman to what he considered a very improper
practice at Windsor, viz., that of taking fees. On Sun•
day last he accompanied a friend down to Windsor ; they
were desirous of seeing their Majesties come from St.
George's Chapel. Immediately after.the King and Queen
had passed, they repaired towards the choir to look
through the chapel, but every door was closed, and even
the curtain, before the entrance, drawn to prevent tt.e
puld.c seeing the interior. After looking through the
state apartments in the castle, the person who bad shown
them placed herself at the door, and though a fee was not
absolutely demanded, it was evidently expected, and all
the company he saw pass paid one. Now, as the public
had paid so large an amount for beautifying and repair-
ing that noble edifice, he should suggest that it should be
shown without fee or reward on those days on which the
public are admitted.
Mr. HUME said he had found no difficulty in seeing
the Chapel when at Windsor.
The vote was then agreed to ; as were also grants of
1,8001. to complete the new State Paper-Office ; and
8,4221. for certain works at Pembroke.
On the question that 10.0001. be voted towards the
erection of the National Gallery,
In answer to a question by Colonel EVANS,
Li,rd DUNCANNON suited that it was proposed that
inquiry should be made by competent authorities as to the
propriety of appropriating Whitt-hall Chapel to the pur-
poses of a National Gallery ; and that if that plan should
be adopted the ground in Trafalgar-square would remain
unappropriated
Mr. ESTCOURT thought the Government ought to
proceed at once with the erection of a gallery in Trafalgar-
squ ire if the Chapel at Whitehall should not be found
adapted to the purpose.
Mr. WARBURTON, after a few words, said he
thought that the Government ought to have the power
given to them to proceed at once. He thought the sum
of 10,000/ was too little fur this purpose, and be would
propose that the sum be made 25,0001.
Mr. S. RICE said the suggestion of his Hon. Friend
could not be put into execution, because they had no
power to do this, inasmuch as the Estimate could not be
exceeded.

Mr. C. FERGUSSON attd Mr. ROBINSON deprecated the
applying a tempur,.ry building to the purposes of a Na-
tional Gallery, and theretore they hoped the Government
would erect a new building.
Colonel EVANS hoped the Gallery would be erected in
Tralalgar-square.
Sir R. INGLIS, in allusion to the statement of the
Hon. Member fur Oldham, begged to state that, from the
authority which he had been able to ►efer to, it appeared
there were 19,911 persons in gaol in England and Wales,
including those under Game Laws and Crown prosecu-
'ions ; and be could not imagine that 10,000 of the
number were imprisoned for fi,cal defalcations.
Mr. CLAY su ported the vote.
Mr. W. BROUGHAM wished to know whether the
grant was to be understood as applicable to Mr. Wilkins's
plan?

Lord DUNCANNON thought that the Government
Were bound by %Ir. Wilkins's plan if lie completed it for
62,0001.

11Ir, C, FERGUSSON said the question of building a

National Gallery could not be eet•led by a vote of the
House of Commons, and he thought the matter ought to
be left to the Government.

Mr. EWART hoped that a new building would be
erewed.

Sir C BURRELL would oppose the grant if it were
to be devoted to spoiling Whitehall Chapel for purposes
for which it was not adapted.
The vote was then agreed to, after a desultory con-
versation.

CHAIRMANThe then reported progress, obtained leave
to sit again on Friday next, and the House resumed.

BANK CHARTER BILL.

The third reading- of this Bill was postponed till to•
morrow (this) evening.
LONDON SCAVAGE AND PACKAGE BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
Mr. YOUNG protested agtiost passing this Bill at
that late hour of the evening, seeing that it involved
s large grant of the public money, to the extent of
160,0001.

Mr. P. THOMSON hoped that under the circum-
stances in which he was placed, the House would allow
the BM to proceed.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD entered at great length upon this
measure as it affected the Exchequer, and concluded by
protesting against the principle of the Bill, as calcu'ated to
interfere with the proposed economical measures of finance
upon the opening of the next session. As a financial
measure he thought this measure wholly indefensible.
Mr. ROBINSON saw no pressing necessity for passing
this Bill in the present session, and he deprecated the
general principle of the measure.
Mr. M ATTWOOD then moved an amendment to
leave nut all the words after " that," for the purpose of
inserting words to the effect that in all questions involving
the expenditure of additional payments out of the Exche-
quer especial regard should be bad to those who eta red
greatest pressure.
Mr. YOUNG supported the amendment, and the House
divided—

For the amendment 6
Against it 46
Majority —4o

The Bill was then read a third time and passed. The
other orders of the day were disposed of; and on the mo•
tion of Mr. ATTWOOD that the House be counted the gal-
lery wp.a cleared, when 35 Members only being present,
the House was counted out at three o'clock.