The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-31 00:00:00

sterling should be made to the Government, and that, in
consideration of 'this grant, the colonial proprietors should
enjoy all their existing rights over the slaves for the period
of 41 years—:(Laughter and- cheers)—the 41 years to
expire when the 14 millions were to. he paid out of the
wages of thellaves, and with :an interest of 4 per cent.
He thought hiliself bound, in justice to the Government;
to vindicate them from a charge which had been brought
against them, that they had been inattentive to the objec-
tions brought by the West India body against the plan
proposed by him (Mr. Stanley) in the House on a former
ev ning. Now he would beg to state what those objec-
tions were, and be thought it would appear that the
charge of their haYing been inattentive was 'unfounded.
The first was, that they were legislating in this country,
at a distance from—and in the absence of—the• friends of
the colonies; secondly, that without a temporary adstric-
tion to the soil, it would be impossible for the colonial
proprietor to cultivate the soil ; and-thirdly, that the mode
of cultivation, by creating an artificial dearness, would be
imposing a tax upon provisions and necessaries, which
would he found equally oppressive to the negro an I the
free colonist. Those were the three main ohjections brought;
and although the Government had been denied diseu-sion
upon their merits, they had given them consideration.
And every one of them was provided for in the measure
proposed by them. He thought it right to vindicate the
Government, because, so far was the charge from being
true, that they were most anxious to meet the wishes of the
West India body, and, as far as possible, they had thought
it their duty to accede to their suggestions. He would
not enter into the comparison drawn between the state of
the slaves in the West Indies and that of the factory
children in this country, because he did not think the
cases parallel, and he thought the subject of the factory
children had been very unnecessarily brought into the
discussion. There was one point, however, which both
parties agreed in condemning. The West India body
complained that they should have to pay interest on the
money to he advanced to them, while those persons who
advocated the immediate and unconditional emancipation
of the slave, thought it hard that the negro should have
to pay (or his ultimate freedom. He (Mr. Stanley) had
stated that there were only three ways in which the money
to he advanced could he tepaid, either out of the revenue.
out of the labour of the slave, or out of the resources of
the colonies. TO the last of these he (Mr. Stanley) had
stated that it was impossible to agree. They had, there-
fore, proposed that t6e wages to he earned by the negro,
(haring one-fourth of his time, should be set aside, in
order to repay the advances made by the Government,
and to grant a remuneration to the proprietor for the
loss which he would sustain by emancipation, and they
had proposed that the proprietor should pay interest for
the money advanced to him: T. ere was one other resource,
which was, to throw the fifteen millions to be advanced
on the resources of the country. lie admitted that there
was a well founded objection to obliging the planters to
pey interest on this money, while they found all the
necessaries which' the slave requires ; and, on the other
hand, it appeared but reasonable that the slave should
have the fee use of his spare time. It was impossible
not to feel the force of those objections; anti if both
parties would concur, the Government had no objection
that, instead of the payment of inter at, a ewe': additional
duty should be laid on colonial produce, and they were
ready to recommend that plan to Parliament. The
planter would then not have to pay any interest. They
were likewise willing that the negro show(' lay aside no
part of the money which he might earn during his spare
time. But they proposed, that if the negro should, by
the produce of his labour, save any money, he si•ould then
have it in his power to shorten the period during which
he was to continue in the service of his master, when he
was able to compensate his master for the remainder of his
time which was to run, and to prove himself of initials-
trious and moral habits. In these and other parts of their
plan the Government were ready to propose such meta&
cat ons as did not affect any material alteration in the
principles of their plan.—(Hear, hear.) They proposed,
in order to meet those views, that an additional duty
should he charg. d upon sugar. He knew that such
a proposition was not without difficulty : • and it
would be his own wish rattier to diminish than in-
crease the duty; but he believed that an increase
would not affect the consumption. Far looking to the
period when the duty on sugar was reduced from 275. to
245., he found that no increase in consumption had taken
place, and he was, therefore, entitled to assume, that for a
small additional duty no deduction would now take place,
and the revenue might be so increased as to compensate
for the sum advanced to the colonists. But supposing
that the price of auger did rise, still the colonists had not
to complain, as the increase would fall not on them. but
on the people of this country, who were the consumers,
and by whom he had no doubt it would be cheelfuliy
borne, in order to secure an object in which they felt so
warm an interest.—(Hear, hear.) He was not aware
that in the proposals which lie had made he had any fur-
ther modification., to offer. And in those modifications
the same principle was f !lowed out on which his
plan was all along founded—namely, that all hereafter to
lie born should enjoy freedom, and that the present gene-
ration should be at once admitted to a large share of the
rights of free subjects, and ultimately be altogether free ;
and that a sum should be advanced to the proprietors of
slaves by way of compensation, anal that means he
taken to improve the moral anal religious state of the
negro. He hoped that the Colonial Legislatures would
now cordially co operate with the Government in
endeavouring to improve the moral and religious
state of the slaves. It was vain to expect any effectual
measure of this nature to emanate from the Culonial
gisl attires, and the Government had, therefore, felt bound
to legislate independently of them. There were details tat
the plan. however, which would necessarily require to lie
filled up by the local legislatures. And he hoped that
when the Colonial Legislatures became sensible that it was
now beyond all hope to prevent the freedom of the negr,,es,
they would consult their own interest and the welfare of
the empire by joining in enacting such local regulations
as are applicable to the new state of things, and fill up ihe
great outline of a plan which was to abolish slavery at
once and for ever.—(Cheers.)
Colonel HAY was of opinion that there was something
in the character of the slaves which would prevent them
from ever doing any labour without some degree of con-
straint, especially in the sugar colonies. He was now of
opinion, as he had stated to his constituents, that the im-
mediate emancipation of slavery would lead to the ruin of
the negroes themselves, and the plan proposed by the
Government did not remove that impression. He denied
that the plan could work, because the holder of a small
number of slaves could have no remuneration for his loss.
In Barhado-s, where there were 5,000 proprietors,
and 80,000 slates, there were only 1,500 of the proprie-
tors who had land. The rest had merely one, two, or
three slaves, anal he would ask how they could be remu-
nerated ? He strongly denied that planters had ever
manifested the least opposition to the moral or physical
improvement of the black population. Public schools
bad been long established throughout the colonies—and
he would more particulatly advert to Barbadoes, as having
more immediate knowledge of that colony—where co-
loured children and white children hail received the be-
nefits of education equally and indiscriminately. During
on, of the late tremendous hurricanes on that island, all
the schools, amongst other houses, had been destroyed ;
hut such was the anxiety on all parts to have n,
ruption in the education of the children generally, that
before any other house whatever was rebuilt, all the
schools were in full operation before the at rival of Lord
Mulgrave, by means of the very liberal subscriptions
which were entered into—Sir James Lyon, the former
Governer, himself subscribing the sum of 500/. towards
the expense.
Mr. MAXWELL STEWART must really express his
extreme surprise anti regret .t the tone of speech and line
~f argument with which the Right Hun. Secretary for the
Celonies had ushered in this most fearful proposition.
The effect of the proposed measure would be most dime,
mous to all parties, and he theretore felt it to tie his abso-
lute duty, as a representative of the people in general, and
as connected with these colonial interests, personalty to
stand fiirward as one of the protectors of the much ca-
lumniated and unfortunate planters, who were in every
instance decidedly opposed to this measure, but whose
opinions seemed to be held at nought. The Right Hon
Gentleman had retied greatly upon some opinion expressed
by 'Mr. Canning. hut this opinion was, delivered beeare Mr.
Canning had had the experience of office. But what was
thesentiment delivered lay Mr. Canning in 1824, when he
had become a M Hister of the crown ? Why, he said that the
toasters weir the only persons who ought to he the meoiuni
for legislating; and Mr. Huskissen had held the same
opinion ; for he declared, that to admit ofany other agency
would infallibly ttud to the ruin of the colonies. There
had been no doubtexpressed by any party as to the propriety
of negro emancipation ; all that was denied was, that abo-
lition should be produced by safe, salutary, anal honest
means.—(Hear, hear.) It had been asserted by the Right
Hon. Secretary, that the colonists had to a man utterly
roused to recognise the resolutions passed in 1824 by Lard
Bathurst ; but if the Right Hon. Secretary had taken the
trouble tahaeco:..suulldt thefin
i paperstis prede-
cessors,caanidu:nietsvpautc,theerslyofathivsarianeetwvi.tehpefarcattsi.on liine wfoortawhatiditheavt
every
far tprzei:!unstinginthtehier
wends, the colonists had displayed the utmost readiness to
adopt every` suet' suggestion, and had in wally instinct.*
auucipatad the prupoitions, 'lle island of I:),,trui4 bad

been partially pointed out as a place where cruelty to slaves
was even more notorious than at any other 'Wand ;. but
be (Mr. Maxwell Stewart) was prepared, on the beet
• authority, to declare his solemn opinion that the moral
and physical condition of the negro population of this
island was such as to.render it one of the best and Anost
promising
,of our colonies. He denied the imputation
cast upon the planters with reference to the alleged
aeparation. of families, and quoted the da claration of the
Deputy Marshal of the island of Demerara, to the effect,
that it bad never been. the custom there to separate families,
although. in sect ral instances members of a family had ob-
jected to being sold to the same planter with each other. And
this calumny was, that the planters had not provided for
the religious instruction of the slaves. He denied this
• imputation. In the, island of Demerara—to particularise
5--the Court of Policy, many years ago, had anticipated
the Home Government, by making an Act which most
carefully and
_plosely provided for maintaining morality
and religion among the population ; and so far from the
people there having become demoralised, it was a matter
admitting of no doubt, that the moral and physical con-
dition of the slaves had materially improved within the
last forty years. He would just inform the House to what
extent means were provided in this island for insuring re-
ligious instruction, and he was sure that this statement
would satisfy the House on this point. Of the established
church there were seven rectors and ,one curate ; there
were two Roman Catholic priests; twelve catechists ; five
ministers of the Scotch Church; and two of the Church
of Holland. The Hon. Member also gave the number of
' schoolmasters and others, but with such rapidity, that it
was impossible we could follow him. For the support of
the church there, and for the dissemination of education,
however, we gathered that the cost yearly was 135,400
guilders, or 10,000/. ; and that since 1821, a very large
extra amount had been destined for the same objects ; all
which expenses were borne solely by the inhabitants, by
a rate levied by the Court of Policy. He was perfectly
astonished to hear what the Secretary had said about
slave evidence.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. M. S.) had
previou-ly considered that it was the A B C of colonial in-
formation to know that the evidence of slaves was ad-
missible in alt the colonies ; yet here c ame forward the
Right Hon. Secretary, and denied a fact which was eata-
blished from time immemorial. The Right Hon. Member
bete gave several instances where convictions bad been
obtained solely on slave evidence—some of them capital.
a he Right Hon. Secretary had also male several most in
corr cc and injurious statement+ about the alleged decrease
of n grates wherever there was an increased cultivation of
su4ars. It would he proved by official documents that
such was not the case. Tne Hon. Gentleman then west
over a long series of fi4ures in support of his position.
The Hon. Mi tuber also showed, by a reference, as we
understood, to a table of mortality, in 10,000 people in
tie county of Rutland, that the advantage in that number
was 243 in favour of the Creole population of D-merara.
The average range of mortality he stated at 1 in 37, while
it was 1 to 60 it, England anti Wales, 1 in 30 in Pat is,
1 in 25 in Rome, 1 in 24 in Amsterdam ; showing that
the average mortality in Demerara was less than the ave.
rage mortality in the principal cities and countries of
Europe. Yet Demerara had been described as that place
wt-ere the planters were more reckless of human life and
most oeatitute of human feeling. This observation, which
applied strictly only to Demerara, might be extended to
all the other colonies. He did not object to die
first resolution; it was the lineal descen !ant of the re-
solutions 1 1823. The plan, however, neither con-
sulted the wellare of the slice nor the interest of the
proprietors. If the House could. accomplish with safety
the transition from slavery to frse laitout, it woul I confer
the greatest possible boon on the West Indian propriet. rs.
The negroes would receive no immediate benefit from the
plan. The apprentice, at the end of twelve years, ould
sal leave him a dead weight on tt e planters; and there
was a patty in England which would allow the planters to
have no quiet while a stave remained alivi. He would I,e
at the end of his appri nticeship, a burden ain the property,
and the proprietor would be even then the victim of tne
outcry against slavery. It was expected that the slave
would have motives for toil in the artificial excit men's of
civilization ; but those who calculated thus knew nothing
of the slaves. He could not comprehend the motives of
which civiliz-r1 man admitted the force and admired the
operation. The planters would not have one benefit from
the scheme, exc-tot the loan, which amounted to n thing.
It had ben calculated on wrnng data. He knew th at the
Board of Trade hid returned 1,500.000/. as the income of
the colonies, hut that included only the absentee incom-.
The whole income ought to be includedthe whole ex-
ports to all other parts of the world, as wed as to Great

Britain; ant that would eive a very diff-rent result. He
knew it was unpopular to say that the planter- had a right
of property in their sl :vea ; but he asked what species of
pr..pertl could be cen.iiiered cafe in the count, y. if their
property in slaves, which had been secured by Acts of
Parliament since the days of Eiz.beth, was nut to be con-
sidered legal and good property ? He could assure the
House, if that propery were not safe, it would be time

I for them to look at home. The Hon. Member referred to
an opinion of Lord Stowell's, delivered in 1827, to show
that emancipation, to he just, must be at the expense of
both parties; while the people of England seemed to think
it ought to be ct•eap to tnem, and wholly at the expense
of the colonists. He admitted that this species of property
was repugnant—was revolting; lie was willing to put an
end to it : he even implored the House to wipe out that
stain, but to do it in a way that became a people of bigh
honour and high character. The crime was national—let
the explanation be national. He asked to be delivered
from slavery, but let it not be done at the destruction of
property. If that was not an awful subject, he knew of
none on this side the grave. He thought the words of
Burke in 1775 were applicable now. Burke said--
•' Staves as these unfortunare black people are, and dull as
all men are from slavery, must they not a little sot-
peet the offer of freedom from that very nation which
has sold them to their present master.? From that

nation, one of whose causes of quarrel with those
masters. is their refusal to deal any more in that inhu-
man traffic? Au offer of freedom from England would
come rather oddly, shipped to them in an African
vessel, which is refused an entry into the ports of
Virginia or Carolina, with a cargo► of three hundred
Angola negroes. It would be curious to see the Guinea
Captain attempting at the same instant to publish his pro-
clamation of liberty, and to advertise his sale of slaves."

He repeated, that it was an awful subject, and he called
on them to look at St. Domingo, and take warning. In
1791, that was a flourishing industrious island ; now it
was one wide scene of licentiousness, idleness, and poverty.
In 1791 the crops were valued at six millions sterling ;

in 1825, when the population had increased by 400,000,
the value of the crops was not more than 420,0001. At
the same time, the interest of money was 75 p-r cent.,
and the best land in the island might be had at two and
a half years' purchase. He again conjured them to take
warning by the example of St. D.,mingo. All that
devastation had been brought about, though all the talents
of Toussaint L'Ouverture, of which even Bonapirte was
jealous, and all the energy of Christophe, aided by the
talents of liberal men, had been directed to est iblish order.
The Hon. Member next referred, we believe, to Vene-
zuela, where, he said, there were only five or six sugar
plantations, and they were all worked by slave labour.

He contended that this showed that the statements of the
Right Hun. Gentleman were not correct. He asserted
that all the planters, and all the agents of the colunies,
and all the perstlis connected tit ith the colonies, who were
now gathered in London, looking eagerly for the settle-
ment of this question, were willing to.lend their assistance
to abolish slavery with safety to themselves.
Mr. F. BUXTON admitted the sincerity, and the
great power and good humour, with which his Hon.
Friend had so ably advocated the cause of the West
Indians. The Hon. Member had chiefly replied to the
speech of the Right Hun. Gentleman, the Secretary of
State, and he was sorry to say, that with the latter part
of that speech he did not agree. But he must call on
the House to look at facia which were uncontradict-d,
and defied contradiction. He could not but advert with
gratification to the speeches both of the Right Hun.
Gentleman and the Noble Lord (Howick); for in them
be found complete justification of all the opinions lie bad
ever entertained, and of ti,e course he had pursued. He
had been assailed by all kinds of vituperative epi bets, and
should he be again assailed by them, he would point to
the speeches of the Noble Lord and the Right Hun. Gen.
Vermin as his justification. The Right Hon. G.-ntleman
was a convert ; but he had had RO COOlmoniCation with
any individual connect d with him. His H in. Friend
hid dwelt much on tr e state of the population of the
%Vest Indies ; he would not answer that part of his Hon.
Friend's statement, because he knew it was impossible to
carry a long array of figures in the head, and he hail
dready forgotten those of his Hon. Friend. When
he had been about to make such a statement, ,

he had sui.mirted it a week before making it to
the Hou-e, to his Hun. Friend. and his H.m. Friend
,liouid ha%e answered th,m it he could It was certainly
ffratirying to him to find that his Hon. Friend had now

endeavoured to show from the state of the population, as
he had done last year, what was the condition of the slaves,
tho igh he did not think that the observations of his Rot.
Friend had ihval.dated his argument.. He had listened

woh gr.-at attention to the Arguin,nts of the gentlei+•eo

,vl, hail sp. ken on this question, and it Wag most satis-

iacLor) ; indeed it might be considered as a very tavottittb:e
omen, that none bad avowedly opposed the emakeipation

of the negro.—(Hear.) The knowledge of the people of
England on the subject of slavery, and the effects produced
by it, bad increased of late years, and the evidence of the
necessity for negro emancipation had largely accumulated.
For instance, the fact which had been frequently adverted
to, and which had been repeated on that evening, that, in
the proportion that the cultivation of the sugar cane was
increased, the numbers of the negro population diminished.
It had been said that, at St. Domingo, the quantity of su-
gar bad materially diminished ; but had the quantity of
human life diminished?—(Hear.) He could prove to
their satisfaction that the contrary was the case ; and that
the comforts and improvement of the people had been ma-
terially promoted. The Right Hon. Gentleman below
him had referred to a past speech of his, to show that he,
at one time, was a friend to gradual emancipation. He
wished the Right Hon. Gentleman had gone on to the
resolution which he moved in 1632, in which he would
find a declaration that slavery was contrary to the princi-
ples of the British constitution, and of the Christian re-
ligion. The Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to suppose
that he did not in those days go to the full extent tf his
present principles. But since then new information had
been obtained. They did not then know, as they did now,
that all attempts at gradual emancipation, are wild and
visionary.—(Hear.) They acted on the promise of Mr.
Canning, that certain ameliorations in the condition of
the slaves should take place, be assuring them that he had
the authority of Governtnent, and also of the West India
hotly in this country, for making that promise. One of
these ameliorations was the instant abolition of the chats-
tisement of females. Had the barbarous and diseusting
practice of flogging women, however, ceased then ? Cer-
tainly not. In the House of Assembly in Jamaica, a short
time back, one Member had the courage to move its abo-
lition ; he found a seconder ; but on a division, he had
only one person to vote for his motion.—(Hear, hear.)
They were not, in fact, in 1823, aware of many of those
important circumstances which have since come to light.
They were not aware of the fact of the depopulation conse-
quent on the cultivation of sugar—they were not acquaint-
ed with the lashing of women. In those days there was not
the same opposition to the moral and religious education of
the negroes. In those days there were nu Church Colonial
Union.—(Hear.) In those days there were no instances
of negroes being tried, convicted, and punished for no
other offence than that of worshipping God after the dic-
tates of their own consciences. There were no instances
of Magistrates, to far from attempting to suppress 'iota,
assisting in pulling down chapels with their own hands.
—( Hear, hear.) There were then no instances of Mis-
sionaries being hunted for their lives, or of their disap-
pointed hunters wreaking their vengeance by tarring and
feathering innocent childhoed.— (Hear, bear.) These
things wet e not then known and understood, or the peo-
ple of England would doubtless have raised their voice as
',wily and energetically as they bad now done. He had
frequently been called headstrong and insolent, but now
the charge against him seemed to be that he had not gone
far enough ; if, however, he had neglected the interests of
the negro, he would endeavour to make him reparation on
the present occasion, and, therefore, when they came in
Committee to that part of the plan which called on tne
ne;ro to work three fourths of his time without reward,
it being, at the seine time, admitted that the negroes re-
quited the instigation of the strongest inducements to
I itiour, he, should, on the principles and facts of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, give that part of the plan his utmost
oaposition.—(Hear, hear.) It bad been denied by some
that Hogging was still practised ; but though he did not
wish to dwell on insoances of atrocity and cruelty, he
might refer to the case tat Henry Williams, a negro
who dis ieguished himself during the insurrection by his
preservation of his master's property, which he afterwards
deliv red up to him in full cultivation. Mr. Betty's over-
seer, who had no o her fault to find with him, said, that
it he went to chapel, he should be sent to Rodney Hall
workhousee—a dreadful punishment. Henry William.,
went to ch 'eel ; he was accordingly sent to R,Oltiey Hall
prison, and flagged. A female slave dared to sigh. Mr.
Betty immediately cried, ‘• Hand our that lady !" and she
was laid down, and fl .gged.—(flear, hear.) Williams
oeis punished so severely, that his bark was a mass of
.corruption. This was all admitted evidence, not mere
statenont. Complaint was made to Sir Ceorge Murray,
a most amiable and estimable man, Sir George, with
proper indignation, immediately called on Mr. Betty to
account fur his conduct, but he refused to answer the in-
terrogar.iri s. He did not deny having the female I iid on
the ground and flogged ; but contended that he had a
right so to do, and that he did not exceed the legal punish-
ment of thirty-nine lashes. If, contended thi- man, the
Hon. Secretary thought it contrary to law, he was ready
to submit the ease to a jury of twelve honest plenters,
o would convince him t' at he had nut exceeded
the undoubted right of a West Indian overseer.—
(Hear.) And when the case was brought home, it was
found that this doctrine was correct in law, and he (Mr.
Buxton) held in his hand an extract from Lord Goderich's
esaatch, in which he said, there is so illegality in the
poiceeding of Mr. Betty; the only complaint that can lie
made against him is, that he has exercised legal powers in
an illegal manner. He would bring into the House a
witness, whose testimony could not be impeached, one of
the five deputies from those islands, and the only one
who refused to negotiate with Government—he meant
Mr. Burnley. Wh.t was the picture he gave of slavery
in a pamphlet which he published? He spoke of it as a
system of great enormity, infamous and disgraceful—that
the plesent unnatural state of society in the West Indies
was without parallel in the history of the world—that it
was harsh in its features, revolting to every freeborn
mind, and required the aid of many evils to prep ant sup-
port it. He also said the subject was one which was
surrounded by unconquerable difficulties, and that the
evils of slavery could not be remedied by any thing short
of its total abolition ; and he did not fail to observe,
that in every language whip and slavery were found

in juxtaposition that they were parts of the same
syste and would stand or fall together.—(Hear, hear.)
The description of the Right Honourable Gentleman
was fl ittering when compared with that of this unex-
ceptionable evidence. He could not help saying tliis---
'bat from all the facts which had come to his knowledge,
and from the communicati •ns which he received, both
public and private, his mind was deeply impressed with a
conviction that a servile war would be the inevitable
consequence, if emancipation were to be deferred. He did
not wish to enter into this painful subj-ct. He gave the
Right Hon. Gentleman, however, full credit for his propo-
sitions, which, together with his speech, would go a great
way to diminish the probability of that disastrous event.
The negroes had common sense, and, therefore, he had no
doubt they would see the strong interest which they had in
peace and tranquillity under present circumstances. He,
however, most sincerely hoped that nothing would induce
his Majesty's lginis'ers to postpone the question beyond the
pres nt session. No wisd.im, no foresight could avert the
doom of slavery ; but wisdom and foresight might influ-
ence the mode of its termination. It might fall by
violence, or it might expire in peace It might ter-
minate as it did in St. Domingo, amidst the horrors
of a servile war, or it might be concluded with
peace, safety, and benefit to all parties. The negro
character was determination, and their determination
was not to work. He would ref; r only to one in-
stance ; he did not refer to it as a case of atrocity,
but simply in illustration of this statement. After the
late insurrection, a negro was tried, but there not being
sufficient evidence, he was acquitted. He was told to re-
turn to his work ; he refused, and declared that lie would
never work again unless for wages. Loaded muskets were
pointed at his breast, and he was ordered to return home
to work or prepare for death ; I.e reiterated his detertnina-

th,n—to die rather than work without remuneration.
He was shot. When the negroes could furnish heroes and
martyrs as this man certainly was to his determination,
what was to he expected ?—(Hear, hear.) There was
one other topic to which he migot be expected to advert,
namely—the p,obahle conduct of the negro when etuanci-
paled. He should take an opportunity of entering upon
that more fully on another occasion. He had no doubt
that he should be able to prove, that if they would give the
negto wages, he would work for wages ; and if this
had not been already established, it was the fault of

those who would not give wages, and not owing to any
Musa on the part of the negroes. He did not claim for
the negroes that they should be exempt from labour ; all
he claimed for them was the rights of human beings.
He did not wish to enter in o abstract arguments ; but as
an Hon. Gentleman had concluded his speech by a quota-
tion from Shakspeare, he would conclude his by referring
to a higher auttiority—Alr. Justi.•e Blackstone—who said
'• that life and liberty may be said to be absolute rights,
which belong to persons in a state of nature, which every
b-Mg born in the tvoi Id has a right to enjoy, and which no
human legislation ha• a right to abrdge or destroy, unless
the party commit some criminal act which shall amount to
a forfeiture of his right."—(Hear.) Ibis, therefore, he
applied to negroes—and whether they would work or not,
whether they prefer to live in a simple, or, us we might
call it, savage state, they had still that unalienable light
which Mrs Justice Blackstone referred to—they were still
men, and as men unconvicted of crime, they had a just
claim to be free. He sought for them the pure, primitive,
eternal rights of min. If on a future occasion it should
turn out that they stould nut work, still he would say,
they were not less entitled to that liberty giv.n to
them by the laws of naiute, and which, m'y the laws
of Eng•and, had been taken away from them to substitute
the abominable cruelties of our own.--(Cbeers.) It

duly remained for him to state the course he should

adopt in relation to the plan of the Right Hon. Gentle.
man. Though he opposed parts of it, yet he thought
some of the propositions made that night were great
amendments, and would prove very satisfactory to the
friends of emancipation. If the opposition were success-
ful, it was probable they would lose the benefits of this
measure altogether; and so sure as that was the case, so
then would life and property be insecure in the colonies,
as had already been stated in a report signed by Mr.
Burge and other West India agents. The Hon. Gentle:
man concluded by declaring that he saw no alternative in
the rejection of this measure but the precipitation of
emancipation by bloodshed and violence. He wist,ed one

verbal alteration in the part which spoke of the pro-
prietors of slaves. He would not recognise even in words
a property in rnan.—(Hear.) Though he should be sorry
to vote against an amendment embracing his own prin-
ciples, yet be was bound to consult, in the first place, the
welfare of the negro, and a regard for his interest com-
pelled him to support the proposition of the Right Hon.
Gentleman —( Cheers.)

Mr. Waal) and Mr. GLADSTONE rose together. The
call for Mr. Gladstone was loud and long continued ; but
Mr. WARD proceeded—he supported the plan pro-
posed by his Majesty's Ministers, and illustrated the pro.
bability of its success, by a reference to Spanish America.
In Guatemala, especially, the colonial produce was very
considerable, and yet there were no slaves; -•• The whole
was the result of free labour. Before the revolution, the
planters, finding the expense of importing slaves great, had
encouraged marriages between the slaves already in their
possessioo, and the native women ; and had,• in most
instances, consulted their come rt and advantage. Ths
consequ"nce was, that when the revolution broke out, the
negroes adhered as free labourers to their masters. A
hundred and fifty free labourers in Guatemala produced
twice the quantity of sugar that was produced by 150
slaves in Cuba. But there was another great advantage--
the abolition in Spanish America of all those hateful dis-
tinctions between man and man by which North America
was polluted. However inferior Spanish America might
be in other respects, in that she was transcendent. The
sound of the whip would never again be there heard.
Adverting to Cuba, the Hon. Gentleman observed, that
out of a population of 750,000, only 260,000 were
slaves. Whereas, in the population of our colonies, only
one nut of twelve or one out of fifteen was free. To what
did Cuba owe the ;Avant iges wide] it possessed? To the
Spanish Colonial Code. That code secured every slave on
his entrance into bondage fair special rights. The
first was the right of changing masters; the second
the right of marriage; the third the right of acquiring
and holding property; the fourth tha right of employ-
ing that property in the redemption either of their
wives, their children, or themselves. A Spanish Alcade or
district magistrate was the sole judge of the disputes
between the slaves and their employers. If a general
convulsion were to take place to-morrow in the West In-
dies, he b lieved that Cuba, in cons• quence of the conduct
pursued by the planters, would escape the ruin. Although
the proposition of the Right Hon. Secretary of State dt-
-1 tyed the entire freedom, it delayed it only that freedom
might he more valuable and secure. It had been said Cie
system of corporeal punishment ought to be abolished ;
rot it was scarce y possible that the power of inflicting it
should be abused when placed in the hands of magistrates
sent out from this coun ry. The example of St. Domingo
had been referred to ; hut in St Domingo, even under
Christophe, the whole black population had been under a
strict and seveaie code of laws. With respect to compen-
sation, he undoubtedly thought the planters were entitled
to it. He did not think the House had a right to maintain
any great abstract principle without a reference to the in-
terests which might be sacrificed by it. He was not,
therefore, one of those who thought that emancipation
might take place at once, or be celebrated on his Majesty's
next birthday. He could not blind himself to the wide-
spread misery and devastation which such a proposition
was calculated to produce. He thought, therefore, the
compensation might even have gone further with advantage.
He approved of the manner in which the slaves were to
work out the I 'an in the shape of wages.—(S ainebody
appeared to tell the Hon. G ntleman that that part of the
plan was relinquished.) He was sorry to hear that that
part of the plait way relinquished, for he highly approved
of it. As to cony, rting the loan into a gilt, that_seemed
to him to he highly ex,edient ; convinced as he was the
West India Proprietors would be unable to pay the money.
He was fir from being an advocate of the system pursued
in the West Indies; tot lei it be recollected that the sys-
tem dirt no, rest on the West India Proprietors, It revel
on the B, itish Parliament —(Loud cr es of " Question"
and "Adjourn.")

Mr. GODSON moved that the Chairman should report
progress, d a.lc leave to sit again. .
Lord ALTIFIORP aequi.-seed in the adjournment of the
discussion. His statement of the intentions of his Ma..
jeaty's Government respecting the Bank Coarter stood tor
to morrow (this day) ; hut lie would take the chance of
there being time afterwards for the prosecution of the pre-
sent d bate.

Th. 11,iuse wao then resum,d, and the Chairman ob-
tained leave to sit again this day.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and at
half-past twelve o'clock this morning the House adjourned.

HOUSE f;F LORDS, MAY 30

The Lei-d. Oil Gas Company Bill was ri-ari a third time.
The Earl of MALMESBURY presented a petition for
the abolition of the m.lt duty.
Li it d DUNDAS presented a petition against the assessed
taxes.

Lord CLONCURRY presented petitions for the repeal
of the punishment o► death.• in our criminal code.
Tle Duke of RICHMOND brought up the report of
the Savings Rmks Annuities Bill, without amendment.
Lord SUFFIELD present•d petitions for the abolition
of slivery from Owes in Ireland.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition

from Bristol against the Alinisterial plan for the abolition
of slavery. Also a petition from the slave owners and
inhabitants of the island of Dominica, praying for protec-
tion The whole of the inhabitants stated that they
were willing to sell their estates in the island of Domi-
nica, so that his Illaji.isty's Government might try such
experimen.s in it as they should think fit, without

injut ing the property of others.
Lord SUFFIELD bad no doubt that a man who bad
bought a stolen borse would be glad to get the money
back again.—(A
Lord BERESFORD said, that the Noble B iron must
first prove that the horse was stolen.
The Duke of WELLINGTON begged to refer the
Noble Lord to the repeated acts and resolutions of
Parliament upon the subject, and he would see that
slaves were acknowledged to be property. No English-
man could be deprived of his property except by the law
of the land, and no Englishman could be deprived of his
property, even by Act of Parliament, without proper
compensation.

Lord SUFFIELD was quite delighted with what had
fallen from the Noble Duke. He bad stated that no man
could be deprived of his property but by Act of Parlia-
ment, hut tee (Lod S.) would say that no man could be
deprived of his natural right, liberty, even by an Act tit Par-
liament; and that he should be prepared to prove when the
proposed measure was belle their Lordships' House.—
( Hear.) He pledged himself to prove the impossibility of
man having a property in man. The Noble Lord then pre-
sented two petitions against slavery.
Earl GREY laid up,,n the table a copy of the treaty
or convention entered into between the King of the French,
the Kine of the Netherlands, and his Majesty. The
Noble Earl then presented ten petitions against slavery.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from York
against the Local Jurisdiction Bill.

- The Earl of RODEN presented petitions from several
parishes in Cork agiinst the Church Reform (Ireland)
Bill. He considered that the measure was nothing but
direct spoliation, and would contravene the Coronation
oath.

The BISHOP of BRISTOL presented a petition from
Cok, lamenting the diminution in the number of the
Irish Bishops, and deprecating the Bill altogether. It was
one of the most alarming and dangerous measures he
(the Biwa Rev. Prelate) in the course of his long life had
ever heard of.—(Hear, hear.) He could not conceive
bow it codd be thought necessary to reduce the
number of the Bishops in Ireland, when there were no
Archdeacons and Chapters to a-sist them, and how it
could b, imagined the business could be got through.
The Earl of ST. VINCENT presented a petition,
praying for the abolition of ,davery without compensation.
On the motion of Lord MELBOURNE. the House
'vent into Committee upon the Police Offices (London)
C ati nation Bill.

Lord NIELBOURNF said, that among the alterations
the Bill proposed, that constables should have the power
of apprehending persons in e,:ffee-h ,uses and beer-s'o 9
suspected of intending to commit felony and other offence.,
the present Art allowing them to be apprehended ost
rw
suspicion of comtn.tti felony.
Lord WYNFORD suggested vadions amendments, some
of which were agreed ,o.

The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the second rear-
ing of tie Real Prop, rty v' for) Debts Biil The
principl 8 411(1 prtivi.i,m4 of thiN Bill having been fully
plaine.i by him on a former occa,iini, the Learned Lord
said that he would only then inform the Hens, that its
object was the remedying a great anomaly is the law of