The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-21 00:00:00

and as necessary to the maintenance of the Protestant re
ligio n itself.
Mr. SINCLAIR had taken the liberty, on a former
occasion, when his Hon. Friend presented a petition con-
taining sentiments similar to those which he had now ex-
pressed, to state his own conviction, tbat these were not
the opinions entertained by the great majority of the
people of Scotland. Their deliberate conviction he ap-
prehended to be this, that a national establishment, or, in
other words, a national recognition of our dependence
on God, is a national privilege and a national blessing.
Many of the dissenters in Scotland, though not conform•,
ing to the Presbyterian establishment, would admit the
necessity of upholding a national church in every Chris-
tian country. Roman Catholics, for instance, and episco-
palians, might be considered as concurring in this view ;
and he him-elf bad beard seceding ministers in Scotland,
not only acknowledge, in private, the excellence of the
established church, but pray in public for its stability, as
well as for its' reformation. A public provision for incul-
cating the doctrines of the Gospel was the more indispen-
sable, because the willingness of individuals to contribute
voluntarily towards the dissemination of religious know-
ledge is generally in an inverse ratio to their need of it.
He could not, on this occasion, help quoting the high
authority of Dr. Chalmers. This distinguished man nut
only advocates the permanence as well as promotes the
welfare of that church which numbers him amongst her
most valued and devoted suns, hut has stood forward as
the champion of the Anglo-Irish Episcopal Church,
which he considers as one of the best bulwarks of the
Protestant faith. If the machinery is less useful than it
ought to be, the fault lies only with those who have ne-
glected to employ it in a manner best calculated to pro-
mote its efficiency. He (Mr. S.) was most anxious for
the stability of the established churches, in both countries,
and for a salutary reformation of all acknowledged abuses,
as the best mean-4 of promoting that object; and without
pledging himself to vote for all the details of this measure,
his support of its principle would be as decided as his oppo-
sition to the motion of bis Hon. Friend.
11r. ROEBUCK thought that in a discussion of this
sort, which ought properly to he confined to the advan-
tages or evils of the English church establishment in
Ireland, it was hardly fair to mix up the question of the
English establishment in this country. Here the majority
of the people were in favour of the establishment, and the
majority of the people were entitled to have what they
wished—there they were opposed to the establishment,
and he must say, that, considering that fact, the Noble
Lord bad not dune for them what justice and necessity
required.
The House divided—
For the motion
For the amendment
Majority —Ho
On our re-admission we found the House in Committee
on the Irish Church Bill.
After a few words from Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Shaw,
Mr. Estcourt, and Mr. Stanley, the first clause was
agreed to.
The Chairman (Mr. BERNAL) then put the question
on the second clause for the appointment of Ecclesiastical
Commissioners.
Sir R. INGLIS contended, briefly, that this clause
was an infringement of the Act of Union with Ireland as
far as regarded the Government discipline of the chinch.
No Ecclesiastical Commission as that Row proposed, with
such extraordinary powers, had existed excepting in the
worst times of our history. He objected, also, most
strongly, to the constitution of the Commission.
Lord ALTHORP de!'ended the clause, and took this
opportunity of stating, that be intended to in•roduce an
amendtnent into the seventh clause, by which the corporate
seal of the Commissioners could be affixed to no document
without the previous consent of one of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners.—( Hear.) Some of the Commissioners
were paid in order to secure the transaction of business.
Mr. Goulburn, Sir R. Bateson, and Mr. Shaw resisted
the clause.
Mr. STANLEY supported the clause. It had been
asked why the Board of Commissioners was not constituted
similarly to the Board of First Fruits. He (Mr. Stanley)
did not apFrove of the constitution of that Board. It was
composed of Archbishops, Bishops, the Judges, the Attor-
ney-General, and Solicitor-General, and two honest and
discreet persons, and he had little doubt that three•feurths
of the business was done by the two honest and discreet
persons.—(Hear, hear.) They had, however, partly
assimilated the Board of Commissioners to that of the
Board of First Fruits, and had improved on the plan, as
instead of two they had added three lay commissioners.
It had been said that the whole of the Irish Church
Reform Bill was intended to throw additional patronage
in•o the hands of Government. He (Mr. S.) did not
think that the suppression of ten bishoprics argued much
desire on the part of Government to add to their patronage.
--(Hear.) He thought the clause as it stood would tend
more to the security of the Irish Church than any of the
plans proposed that evening.
After a few words from Mr. SHAW,
Mr. WILLIAMS WYNN had no objection to a consi-
derable part of the Bill, hut he thought that two lay
commissioners would be sufficient.
Lord ALTHORP had no objection that the majority of
the Commissioners should be clerical, and he did not mean
to object to the proposition that the Archbishop of Dublin
and Dean of St. Patrick should be added to the number of
the Commissioners.
Colonel PERCEVAL thought that the Bishops ought
not to be subject to dismissal from the Board by the
word of any functionary, not even the Lord Lieutenant
himself.
After some words from Mr. WARD and Mr. J.
GRATTAN,
Lord SANDON suggested that it might be better that
the clergy should choose delegates of their own body, who
should be chosen by themselves, instead of by the Crown.
He was decidedly of opinion that the Ecclesiastical Board
at present existing was quite sufficient for every purpose.
It was then moved as an amendment by Lord
ALTHORP, that after the words " Lord Primate of
Ireland," the words "and the Archbishop of Dublin," be
inserted.

l'-'6

Mr. C. W. WYNN observed, that both the appoint-
men's and removals should be made by the King--the
head of churek.—ratht r than by the Lord Lieutenant.
Sir R. INtiLIS saw no reason why the laity should
interfere in the management of ecclesiastical funds. It
. .

was all right and proper that they should bear their share
of the burdens—(A laugh)—but beyond that, they bad no
right to meddle.

The amendment was then agr&ed to.
It was then proposed that the word " four" should be
inserted.
Mr. ESTCOURT strongly supported this proposition.
He thought the Commission would be quite imperfect if
it were not partly composed of Bishops from the different
parts of Ireland.

Dr. LUSHINGTON had had considerable experience
as a First Fruit Commissioner, and he objected to making
any addition in the previously propo.ed number. It there
were any particular information required from any parti-
cular Bishop, it would be always open to the Commission
to communicate with him.
The clause, as amended was then agreed to.
Clause 3 was then agreed to, after some discussion be-
tween Lord MatinEvit.Lz and Lord ALTHORP, which was
carried on with such det ruined inaudibility as to amount
to a mere conversation acro,s the table.

Clause 4 was then proposed.
Air. CHAPAIAN wished to know what the amount of
the balances was to be, and what was the meaning of the
expression "and other emoluments?"
Lord ALTHORP said, that it was the intention to
leave the amount of salary to the discretion of the Lord
_ .

Lieutenant, subject to the ulterior approbation of Parlia-
ment. He did not exactly understand the meaning of the
expression alluded to; but could say, that there should be
no other emoluments but the fixed salary.
Mr. SHAW thought it very wrong to leave the amount
of salary to the opinion of Parliament, for as the cost was
to come out of the already too reduced incomes of the
Archbishops and Bishops, hardly a Member of the House
would trouble himself about what cost might be incurred.
Lord ALTHORP made some observations in reply,
which were perfectly inaudible in the gallery.
The words " or other emoluments" were then expunged
from the clause, which, as amended, was then agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 read, and, with verbal amendments, ordered
to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 7,8, and 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
On clause 10 being read,
Mr. GOULBURN suggested that it would be better to
authorize the Commissioners to report to the King in
Council, instead of to the two Houses of Parliament,
which would avoid all appearance of interference with the
prerogative.
Lord ALTHORP said that the report was to be laid
before the Lord Lieutenant, who stood in the place of
the Crown, and afterwards before Parliament, which, he
thought, was the wiser and better course.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 11, 12, and 13 were successively read, and or-
dered to stand part of the Bill, after a short conversation,
and after several verbal amendments had been agreed to.
Clause 14 read.
Lord ALTHORP expressed his intention of altering
the schedules of the Bill, so that the livings of the poorer
clergy should not be taxed.