The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-19 00:00:00

to produce any great sensation, but to propose that the
c'ergy should he properly remunerated for their services.
I think it is desirable that it meawure of this kind should
lie in the first place purely permissive, and that the
parties should fairly agree as to any arrangement they
may think desirable should he made. I think that a per-
miseive measure should have its fair trial first, although
I am free to confess that I do not think that a purely
permissive measure will have all the effect that is desirable.
I weuli, therefore, propose, first, that the measure shall
give permission to the clergyman and the tithe owner,
• and the tithe payer, because, when I speak o
the clergyman, I do - not • think it right to confine
the Commutation simp'y to the clergyman, because I think
the same measure should be applicab'e to the title owner
if he he slay improprititor—(Cheers)—l would first pro.
pose that pr.rmis-ion be given to the tithe payer and tithe
owner, whether be be a clergi man ,tr a lay impropriator,
to mal.e an arrangement for the perpetual commutation of
tithes into is corn rent—l mean by a perpetual corn rent,
a rent varying according to the price of corn.—(Hear,
hear.) In making a proposition for a perpetual commuta-
tion, I think you should not confine ti e relit to the valor
of rwrney, hut that it should vary accordinu to the value
of Corn. The Clergym in, however, should not be allowed
to commute tithes in perpe uity without the consent of the
patron of his living, and the Bishop of hie diocese, neither
should the tenant be allowed to commute the tithes
of his farm, without the consent of his landlord.
(Fie r.) My first princip'e will he to give a period
of 12 months from the pissing of the Bill, and perm'
the tithe payer arid the tithe owner by mutual consent ni
.commute tithes into a perpetual corn rent; but if after
the expiration of 12 months this he not generally done,
and I dare say in many instances it may nor
be done, although I* believe in a vast number
it will ; if after that period tt,e commutation be not ac-
complished, I then propose that either the tithe payer or
tithe receiver, without making it necessary for a whole
parish to agree—l would allow any individual tithe
payer to give notice to a tithe receiver that
he intends to commute the tithes —( Hear, hear.)
The tithe receiver would then be required to appoint the
value in the manner I shall presently state to the
House. It is of great importance that valuers should
be men of great respectability, and there were other
reasons than this why they should not be selected merely at
the option of the parties themselves.—(Hear, hear.)
It is my intention, then, to propose that those
valuators should be nominated partly by the Bishop
of the diocese, and that an equal number shall be nomi-
nated by the quarter sessions. * It might thus
frequently happen that the parries knowing the
individuals who had been appointed as valuators, the saute
individuals would be chosen to value one subject.
Thus each party, either the tithe payer or the tithe
owner may give notice to the other party that they intend
to appoint a valuer ; and this notice b-ing given
the valuation will proceed. Any person, however, who
knows anything of the state of tithe property in this
country, must know that, if an actual valuation
were to take place for titheable property, in each
parish, the effects would be to raise the tithes
throughout England most enormously, and would most
certainly prevent any commutation from taking place, and,
although it might seem to be justice, it would really and
practically be most unjust. My plan, therefore, is, that in
place of being an exact valuation the valuation should pro-
ceed on what leis been paid for an average of previous
years. The valuers, therefore, appointed will not have
the duty of valueing the tithe, on the ground
they wonld only have to ascertain what had been the
amount paid during an average of seven years previously.
I think, however, it would be desirelile to give them
some degree of latitude in making that valuation, and
I propose that they should have the power o altering the
valuation to a certain per centage, either above cr below
_ the amount of tithe actually paid to the extent or
between five and seven per cent. The Noble Lord went
on to say, if the valuers differed in their award,
an umpire should be appointed, which umpire should
be the senior judge of assize. The valuers would have
to fix the amount of tithes to be paid in corn, or in
money ; and the tithe receiver should have the option of
taking it in kind or money, for a given number of yr-ars.
If I e pref.: rred receiving his tithes in grain, the payer
should decide in what grain to pry it. It would of course
be desirable that, when it was feasible, a number of indi-
viduals should agree as to the grain,—a whole parish, for
instance; but a holder of a lease might be permitted to
arrange with the landlord to pay him the tithes
in kind or in money; and the landlord be left to
make his arrangement with the tithe proprietor.
Tvere wile only one other case he had to mention—that
relating to modusses. By an Act recently passed, all
modusses not distributed before July next could not be
questioned ; and it was not likely that this Bill could
come into operation before July. Before this Bill could
come into operation, all litigation would cease on the
swject. His only object was to render a commutation
of tithes upon equitable principles safe and easy. To
effect that, he prop sed in the first instance to give per-
ntiseien to effect it ; and at the end of one year to en•
able either party to compel the other. The corn
prilsion, however, would net take place, unless one of the
pirti-s insisted en it. The advantage to both parties
would be so great in the commutation of tithes, that
be felt confident each party having the power of com-
pelling the commutation of tithed, would have the
affect °i pietre cent, dy proitni i 54 a COMnintatints
throughout t'•e country. That wool b a great advanteg-.
The only object was to render a commutation of tithes upon
equitetrie prin.-11)4:s sate an I easy. The advantage to
both parties would be o great in the cotnmutatien or
tithes, that he llt confident each party,
having the power of compelling the commutation
of tithes would have the effect of pretty generaoy pro
ducing a commutation throughout the country.—( Hear. )
That would be a great advantage. He did not think it
would be at this moment desirable to propose any eq.ittair e
measure that would go to an metre! compulsory commute.
titres He felt great difficulties in doing that ; and, after
the beet consideration be could give the subject, he
thought that it would be barely possible to propose any
mea-ure for an actual and forcible commute
tion of tithes throughout the country. Having said
thus much upon the measure he intended to move this
evening, he hoped it would not be understood that in
proposing the present measure, Government had no °thrill
JD contemplation with rest ect to the Church of England
--(Hear, hear, bear.) Other measures were absolutely
necessary, some of them pressing more, some less. There
was one measure which he hoped weuld be brought for-
ward either in this or another place. which was
the prevention in future of pluraliies.—(Cheers.) Tha
wet A measure which be considered pressed very
much.-.-(Near.) There were other measures perhaps
equally as important, which were beset with difficulties,
that he hoped woul I soon be overcome. Though the
present measure might not appear of so very great
magnitude, he thought that the House would ad•
nit to him, that if it succeeded in causing
a gee; rat commu atiun of titres, it would b.
of the best effects. The proprietors o•
proouctive
land and those generally interested in agricultural
persuits generally' would reap the very greatest advantage
from the measure, Ls they would have the power of em-
ploying their cattle on their land for their own advantage.
On the other hand, I do not think the Church ought
make any resistance whatever. I will say Ido not
think it will.—(Heir, hew.) Sir, Ido not think it
necessary to trouble the House furl her ; and I move for
leave to bring in the Bill.—(Cheers.)
In reply to a question put by Mr. Baring, Lord AL-
THORP was understood to state, that compositions for
tithes had been made, excluding the liability of the clergy
to pay the poor-rates; and, in censequence of that, the
composition was generally lower than it would be if the
ale •gy were liable. It would be necessary to take that
circumstance into consideration in settling the commu-
tation; and be must say that be thought it of essential
importance that the clew should remain liable, so that
they might have an interest in keeping down the amount
of the poor-rates.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS thought the permission of the
Noble Lord was like a cove d dire; it was permissi n
for a year, and compulsion at the end of it. The measure
kept the word of promise to the ear, but " broke it to the
hope". He would not then enter into the subject; be
would only notice the declaration of the Noble Lord, that
the same ruse was to be applied both to the clergy and the
lay improprieties; and he would express a hope, that
that principle might he extended to all parts of the Empire.
Mr. HUME objected to the mode of appointing valua-
tors, because it threw almost the whole power of meninx-
jeg them into the Lands o, the Glee y, one series of them
being appointed entirely by denied persons an another
by the Sessions, of whom one.half was also composed of
clergymen. In his opinion, the best method would be lon
the Government to take upon themselves the appointment
of these functionaties. Another very strong obj -ction
which he had against the system proposed by the Noble
Lord arose from the injustice of appointing the suture
payments of tithes upon the basis of the present p., men,,
the consequence of which would be, that the clergy in
those parishes where the incumbents had been sc•ewing
up the tithes to the utmost possible ext nt would continue
to derive a benefit from these orations, wiele the mole
conscientious portion of the clergy, who bad pursued a dif-
ferent course, were only to 'levee continuance of that hicotne
which they at present enjoyed. The plan would thus ope-

rate as a reward for former oppreealon soda punlahmea
or former leniency. At the same time he was not ini-
mical to the proposed changes ; but he considered that the
details of the plan of the Noble Lord required very crnsi •
derable modifieatione before they could answer the object
for which they were intended. The N-ble Lord did not
seem to be aware of the difference which at present existed
in different parts of England with respect to the amount
of tithes paid—a difference which prevailed to such an
extent, that any plan which did not embrace the considera-
tion of it must be essentially defective. He did not appear
to be aware of the immense advantage which would arise
from the adoption of some system of greater simplicity.
He hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord would be per-
suaded to simplify the details of his measure, and also t* at
Commissioners 'should be appointed to fix a motley value
on the tithes instead of a fluctuating value in corn, and
'hat these Commissioners should derive their authority
directly from the Exchequer or from that House. He
thought the Government, in short, ought to take the
whole into their own hands. If such a course had been
adopted 40 years ago, the Church would at present be in
a much bett-r situation in every respect.
Sir R. PEEL said he was by no means averse to t ge-
neral plan for the commutation of tithes on any principle
which could he considered equitable to all parties whose
interests were concerned. He could not, however, at
present say whether he should oppose or advocate the
system of the Noble Lord ; for it frequently happened
that a measure wore a very different cemplexion when
stated in all its particulars from th it which it assumed tin
its first announcement. His (Sir Robert'e)experience in
that House had suffici, ntly convinced him of that fact ;
and the p-obabi ity of the success of the plan in that
House d vended entirely upon the details, which were
not yet before the House. He, therefore, intended to re-
serve his opinions upon the subject until he should see the
whole plan upon paper, when he should be aisle to say
whether the scheme was likely to succeed in that House,
mil whether it would he just in its operation with respect
to the clergy. He had heard with great pleasure one re-
mark of the Hon Member for Middlesex, that any income
under 3001 a year would not he sufficient for any gentle-
man who had received an expensive education—for a man
of education and a scholar. He, therefore, hoped that when
they carte to consider the Bill with regard to the Irish
Clergy, he should have the concurrence of the Hon.
Membrr for Middlesex in a proposition for exernwing ail
livings of 2001. or 300/ a year from taxation : because it
300/. were not too much for an English clergyman, residing
in a country where he was exposed to no risk, how much
stronger were the reasons for exempting an Irish clergy-
man from any deductions from his annual income,
when it was only of the same amount, considering
that he lived in a country where he was exposed to
so much greater risks?—(Hear, hear.) He hoped, as a
matter of course, that the Hen. Member would support
him in moving that all incomes of Irish clergymen, under
3001., should he exempt from annual taxation. As for
the alterations proposed by the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex, in order to simplify the system of tithes, he (Sir Ro-
bert Peel) preerred the plan of the Noble Lord, by which
the collection of the money was to be entrusted to the pa-
rochial authorities, instead of the amount being paid into
the Exchequer. At the same time, he was of opinion,
that the success of any plan of this nature would mainly
depend on its simplicity; and he was inclined to think that
some part of it admitted of simplification. He did not
exactly comprehend the reasons of the Noble Lord for pro-
posing that, after the lapse of a year, either the tithe payer
or the tithe receiver should have it in his power, if the
opposite party had taken no means for the commutation of
the tithe, to enter into a compulsory arrangement; he
thought that the period was rather short, and that it
would be much better that the arrangement should be vo-
luntary on both sides. Considering the extent and com-
plication of the change, be thought a year much too little.
As to the part of the plan which proposed to make the
commutation compulsory, at the instance either of the
tithe payer or the tithe receiver, it was all very well with
respect to the tithe receiver, but if the Noble Lord per-
sisted in extending it to the tithe-payer, it would give rise
to a great deal of difficulty. Supposing, for instance, that
these were forty rate-payers, and only a few refused
their consent to the commutation, it was easy to ob-
serve what a complicated system would arise, and
how extensive a field fer litigation would he
opened. If one person out of forty were to oppose
the introduction of the new system, did the Noble Lord in-
tend that the 39 should be compelled to retain the old
system ? There was another part of the Noble Lord's
plait which appeared to him also to be liable to very con-
siderable ohjections—that by which the tithe-receiver was
to receive his tithe either in money or grain. It was then
left, of course, to the payer to determine in what species
of grain he Aduld pay it—whether oats, barley, or wheat ;
that is to say, whether fifty bushels of wheat, or a larger
quantity of oats or barley. The Noble Lord would see how
many questions, if this scheme were adopted, would arise
respecting the value of the grain, and for determining
whether the corn is of good quality or not. He would not
venture to say that he had rightly understood the Noble
Lord's meaning, but, as he conceived it, the plan would
lead to these consequences.
L-rd ALTHORP said a few words in explanation,
which we did not catch precisely.
Sir ROBERT PEEL observed, that it would be im-
possible to determine what would be the standard of value.
The valuers would have to determine what was the pre•
sent value of the tithe 01 certain parishes in corn. Conse.
quently, if they determined that va'ne at a hundred
bush le, he apprehended that the tithe would he variable
with the pric, of corn He shauld think it preferable to
send down a single valuer, and leave the matter safer-
wards to the quarter sessions, because the expense would
he extremely great. The only objection was, tnat in
parishes in which tithes had been previously exacted with
riaour, the present rate vvou'd he taken as the standard,
while in others, where the incumbents had been more
lenient, the Church would be deprived of its due. Thus
it became necessary to call in a mhiri party, this were to
have the power of increasing he tithes by five per cent., or
of diminishing it by five per cent., according to the lenity
or rigour with which it had previously be• n exacted. He
had, therefore, considerable dou••ts respecting the measure;
hut he intended to give no opinion at present. All he had
to say was—let justice be dime to all parties.
Mr. C. FERG USSON made a few remarks relative to
the system of tithes in Scotland.
Dr. LUSHINGTON observed, that the brig ation which
had taken place for 500 years alone justified tae introduc-
tion of some measure like the present. The system had
gone on from century to century; had become complicated
by so many minute and difficult questions, that it was im-
possible for any one to expect that a plan could be devised
by which the numberless points which have hitherto per-
plexed the subject should be reduced to one simple method.
If any obseivations of his Noble Friend had excited his
surprise, it was his remark, that the measure was one
which was not calcula.ed to excite a great sensation. It
was a question in which almost every individual in the
kingdom was interest d. He was persuaded that the esti-
mates of hay Noble Friend respecting the amount of paro-
chial burdens would turn out to I e perfectly correct, and
thet they did not exceed 3,250,0001. ; but it was a great
obj-ct to diminish them! burdens fo the greatest possible
extent. Now, with respect to the proposition of the Ho-
n ,urable Member for Middlesex, that the new tithe system
should be managed by the Exchequer, he objected to
it on every ground; he objected to it, first, on grounds 01
principle, because he thought the Government ought not
to possess such a power. He objected to it, secondly, on
grounds of practice, on account of the enormous expense
into which it would lead the State; and, thirdly, he oh.
jetted to it on account of the dissatisfaction which it would
cause in every part of the country. It had been also
stated that inconveniences would arise from the greater
lenity with which tithes bad been exacted in one parish
than in others; but the Noble Lumd had himself pro-
vided against that obj-ction by entrusting the valuers
with the powers of increasing or diminishing the tithes
by 5 per cent. or 10 per cent. Ftr his own part he
thought JO per cent. should be the extent of this discre-
tionary power, rather than 5 per cent. For his part he
thought the sooner the very name of tithes became extinct
the better it mead be for all parties ; for if we look to
the history of the Church for the last 30 or 40 years, it
would be seen that these had been the principal cause 01
alienating the fetlinas of the people from the establish-
ment. With respect to the mode of payment, the Hon.
and Learned Memb,r defended the course proposed by the
Noble Lord (Al burp).
Mr. BARING thought it extremely desirable that the
proposition of the Noble Lord should come fully before
the public, in order that the general opinion with respect
to it might be ascertained. It certainly comprehended no
spoliation of any kind, nor was it,at all a party question.
At the same time be thought that the ohjections made by
the Hon. Member for Middlesex and others, against making
the present payrni nts the Weis of the measure, were almost
insurmountable. When the injustice of taking as data in
one case payments in paris• es where tithes had been
screwed up by the clergyman to the greatest poss We ex-
tent, and in another case payments he parishes where lithe,
hail been liberally suffered to remain much belo the real
amount, was considered, lie thought that jhis would be
obvious. The general valuation would be preferable to
such a system. Adverting to the poor's :ate, the Hon.
Gentleman observed, that no one could read the melan-
choly report which had recently been made upon that
subject, and deny that that was a (potion which ought

not to he permitted to remala lu Its present state.
some parishes in the south of England the rates were 275.
and in one as high as 325. in the Fund ! Wbat was to be-
come of the clergymen in those p irishes ? There might
be rent there, but there would be no tithes. Another evil
was, that in some parishes it was dile constant custom to
work, as it was called, the clergyman by means of a poor's
rate. There was one point which it wou'd be in-
dispensable to consider in the proposed measure.—
He adverted to land which was in a state of garden culti-
vation; and to land where hops and other valuable pro.
duce were grown. On some land of that description the
tithes amounted to forty shillings an acre, which was
more than the rent. If that tithe were perpetuated, a
charge would he perpetuated on land which, at some tu-
ture period, it might not be able ro meet. All these and
other difficulties ought to be looked at carefully, and with-
out bias or prejudice There must be some provision in
the Bill for existing con.racts ; an alteration in the corn
1 • we, or some other legislative measure, nsigiat have the
• ffect of entirely throwing out of cultivation land which
was at present in tillage. Some regulation must be intro-
duced in the Bill with respect to such land ; for, if it
were suisjected in perpetuity to the tithe which it at pre-
sent paid, the landholder might, at some future period, be
deprived. of the whole of his property. At all events, it
was exceedingly desirable that the question should be set-
tled, for the greatest misappr•hentrions were at prseent
entertained in the country with respect to it ; even to the
extent that no clergyman was to have more than 400/. a
year, and that the surplus of tithes, which would be Bawd
to the nation, was four millions !
Lord JOHN RUSSELL perfectly concurred with his
Hon. Ft isnd that it was desirable the question should he
settled. In answer to the observations of t e Hon. Mem-
ber for E-sex, that if the present payments were taken as
the basis of the future arrangement, the pat ishes where
the tithes were now screwed up to the highest pitch
would benc•forward have to pay too much, and the pa
riches where the tithes were now less than the fair amount,
would henceforward have to pay too little, he shservee
that the objection had struck hie Majesty's Government ;
but that, after meets consideration, it appeared to them.
that any other course would he still more liah e to animal
version. If the whole of the tithes were taken, and an
average estimated from every parish, the result would still
be hard and unecpial. A provision however, might no
doubt be introduced into the Bill, in some degree to meet
the objection of the Hon. Gentleman. He consider•d
tithes to be one of the greatest grievances in the country,
whether they sy,re, in lay or ecclesiastical hands; more
especially the latter, as they constantly tended to produce
ill-will, where only good will ought to exist
Colonel TORRENS congratulated the House and the
country on the proposition for a commutation of tithes ;
the effect of which would be, that the revenue of the
Church would no longer be, as it now was, a tax on ca-
pital. He trusted the proposition would give general
satisfaction; as be was convinced that, with some modify
cations, it would be an admirable improvement on the pre-
sent system.
An Host. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn,
begged strongly to press on the atsention of the Ho Ise the
recommendation of the Hon. Member for Essex with re-
spect to the poors' rate. At present they were a tax on
industry and frugality, and a bounty on idleness and im-
providence.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY gave his most hearty assent to
the measure, and wished it could be carried further. He
considered tithes as neither more nor less than a direct tax
on land. He was prepared to make it compulsory on the
landlord to commute with the clergyman, taking the
amount of the commutation as part payment of the rent
front the tenant. There were many Minor pints which,
however, might be lost considered in the Committee.
Sir S. RICE approved of the measure, but thought
great difficulties would arise with respect to its details.
All that could be done upon the subject, however, was to
enter upon it with an earnest desire to conquer those diffi •
cuitiss if possible. One of the greatest of those difficult es
would be to simplify e measure, toad at the same time to
do equal justice to all parties. Sensible as he was, how-
ever, of the great importance of the proposition, he was
not disposed at present to dwell on the objections to it.
Lord SANDON did not think that it would he de-
sirab!e to make acy alteration in the present rate of pay-
ment, whether that rate might be considered a little too
high, or a little too low. In his opinion, the hest tootle of
proceeding was that proposed by the Noble Lord (Althorp.)
Mr. HA LCOM B represented the difficulty which would
attend a commutation of tithes in kind. With respect to
the proposition for allowing paries to purchase tit es in
perpetuity, lie suggested that it might he preferable to
have tithes re-valued periodically ; and he would recom-
mend 21 years as the best period for that purpose. Before
sitting down, he wished to ask the Noble Lord (Althorp)
whether any application had been made to the clergy upon
this measure, or whether the heads of the Church had
given their sanction to it ?
Mr. H. CURTEIS said a few words, which were in-
audible in the eallety.
Lord ALTHORP begged to state, in reply to the ques-
tion of the Hon. Member for Dover (Holcomb), that the
measure had been communicated to the heads of the
Church, though he was certainly not authorized to state
that :hey lad given their consent to it; and he should
say that it was scarcely possible for the Bishops to give a
distinct opinisn, either one way or the other, on a
Bill which was to aff-ct the parochial clergy. He should
say a word or two on some of the objections—if objectoons
he could call them—which h,d been made to the ruersute
in the course of the debate. He certainlyffelt there would
be considertible difficulty at times in enforcing the pro
visions of ti e Bill, from the different modes of col-
lecting tithes. But it must be plain to every Hon.
Member, that no measure whatever could be introduce d
upon the cut jest without being met by serious and prac-
tical difficulties. The proper way to treat the question
was to balance difficulties one against another. The only
other mode they could adopt was by an actual valuition
of the tithes throughout the kingdom, and he was satis-
fied that if this were done, so far from giving satisfaction,
it would excite great and general discontent. As to the
objection made by the Hon. Member for Altddlesex (Mr.
Hume), to the valuers of tithes being appointed by the
Sessions, he would only say that he admitted its force,
and if any less off.nsive mode could he devised he should
most cheerfully adopt it. If the objection of the Hon.
Member for Tnowm th (Sir R. Peel), that some parties
in a district would not consent to a commutation whilst
others did consent—if that objection, he said did prove a
substantial one—what then? We pihnuA only be in the
same situation as before. One part of the land would, as
now, be tithe-free, and another part would not. He con-
sidered, to anew one party to compel ancrher to commute,
would be giving a power, the consequences of w.,ich might
prove very inconvenient. As to the propositian to
commute the tithes generally by giving land in lieu of them
though he could see no very decided objectiun to it, he
must say he did not think it desirable the clergy should
hold any very great extent of landed property. In con-
clusion, he must say he was sincerely rejoiced at the man-
ner in which his proposition had been received by the
House; the difficulties attending it might be hereafter
discussed and overcome, and he trusted the result would
he, a measure that would prove substantially beneficial to
every class of his /tLjesty's suhjects.—(Cheers.)
Leave was then given to b• mg in the Bill.
OFFICES UNDER THE CROWN.

Mr. fIUME said, in rising to make the no ion of which
he bad given no•ice, he was exceedingly anxious that he
.should not be misunderstood by the House. He hail al-
ready, upon two occasion., called their attention to those te-
llers under the Crown in which no duties were performed.
Objections had been taken to the manner in which he had
introduced his former motions—some alleging he did not
fully explain what he had in view ; others that an im
proper time had been selected for them. On reviewing his
conduct, he could not find that he had been guilty of any
error, although he was sorry he was not able to make
himself as well understood as he could have wished. He
had received several communications from persons in
the country, giving the explanations of Honourable
Members in expressions of regret that they did not
take a right view of the question. He would recall
the attention of the House to a period-1808 9
when there was a great pressure made by the p.iople
on the House of Commons for a diminution of the oppres-
sive burthens under which they laboured. A Finance
Committee was app,inted, au l after a laborious inquiry,
a Report was published, in which were detailed the
various sinecures and offices whose du'irs were performed
by deputy. The sinecures, in the segregate, amounted to
195,000/ , exclusive of 30,0001. for those in Scotland, and
51,000/. for those in the Irish Courts of law, and 31,0001.
out of 'hem. He hoped the period had at length arrived,
when there would be no payment without previous sub-
stantial services. He was sorry he had not the returns
lie moved for last session, as he could not correctly state
the present amount paid for sinecures ; and be was the
more sorry, because the most extravagant ideas hail been
promulgated in the country in reference to them—iifeas
which he was very atixioue to see corrected. He looked
upon it more as a matter of principle than a question of
relief. Still, although by doiLg away with all sinecures
they could give hut little alleviation to the burthens of
the country, it was their duty to show they would sympa-
thize with the people when they could. It was their duty to
do the utmost they could for them—to economize in all
things, and to retrench where they could. Do, however, i
what they would, be still knew there must ha heavy fires-

sures....the expenditure must still, were it only on the
ground of the debt, he very great—the people must still
endure; but these reflections should only the more strongly
urge them to act in all things on just and intelligible
principles. Let them resolve that henceforth no por-
tion of the public money—how small, how minute weever
—should be paid to any person who had not an unan-
swerable claim on the ground of public services. He
should, perhaps, astonish the House when he alleged that
one half the debt of this country had arisen from sinecures
and pensions. Those sinecures and pensions had been the
means of keeping up a corrupt Government—of maintain-
ing an undue influence in both Houses—of perpetuating
earl. ivagancies in every shap- and every quarter, and had
thus accumul ited a load of debt, which, under honest
courses of Government, won d never have been permitted.
The Hon. Member here entered into a variety of figure
statements, extracted hoin a Parliamentary return, dated
the 3d of April, 1816, to show the monstrous uses which
bad been made of tie public money, and detailed an in-
stance where seven individuals enjoying sinecures had,
from the petiud of their appointment to them (1763) to
the (late of that document, drawn upwards of one million
six hundred and twenty thousand pounds of the public
money. But he should return to the year 1809, when the
Committee he had alluded to had come to a resolution "That
all sinecure offices w, re unnecessary, and inexpedient as a
means of reward." A motion made in the House, in
conformity with that resolution,' had been negatived, and
rem that time the subject had never been brought before
the House. All these sinecures were not paid out of the
Treasury, and th it was the worst part of the matter—
they were raised in the most objectionable manner, by the
payment of fees. They were impediments to business—
they were clogs upon justice—and, in many cam they
were levied upon proceedings in courts of justice. In one
of the schedules affixed to the report on this subject, he
found the Auditor of the Land Revenue—an Office lie
believed now -ebout to be abolished—received 3 3001
then there was an office held by Loid Grenville of 4,0001.
Then there was the office of the Teller of the Exchequer,
with regard to which he could not let the opportunity
piss without observing, that there was an individual who
had, oe one occasion, stood forward to meet the call of
the country—Lord Camd. m_( Hear, hear)—who had
resigned fees which he then received, to the amount of
23,115/. a yeir. Where was the justification for any of
these sinecure offices ? Every device had been employed
to establish offices of this kind, and to impose fees, se that
those who had influence enough •0 get the offices created,
might erijey the emoluments. In 1782 many of those fees
were regul ited by Act of Parliament, but many of them
remained. He had always desired to put an end to the exist-
ence of these fees, arel he thought it was a reproach to any
liberal Government, that the country should now be pey-
log 33,0001. for paying our own money to our own men
The objection was not the loss of the money alone, but
the delay that was needlessly occasioned—many days
were lost in attendance at offices to pay public money, and
pass public accounts. In the Court of Chancery, here
there were several useless offices. There was one office
held by Lord Bathurst, who received 1,6101. a year ; the
clerk of the patents received 9001. a year; the clerk of
the pipe 9681. a year. Then there was the clerk of the
teere was such an office in the Ho :se of Com-
mons, to punish them for allowing such a system, it would
not be very obj ctionable—(A laugh)—there was a clerk
of idiots, an office held by Lord Thurlow, who received
9631. ; and then there was a secretary to the Bankruptcy
Office, who received 5,7204 a sear, an office hell also by
Lord Thuriow. Again in the Chancery offices, there
was an office held by Mr. Buller, who received the fees,
7931. a year; there were 21 cursitors, all of whom per-
formed their duties by deputy, and who received 6,4041.
a year; the clerk of the hanaper, an office held by two
young lad ies—( Hear, heer)—the daughters of a Noble
Earl, who rec. ived 2,0701. a year ; the messenger of the
great seal, who rece,ved 994/. ; and then there was Lord
Ellenborough, the Chief Clerk of the Court of King's
Bench, who rec-ived 7,9051, ; then there was an office
held by Lord Keneon, who received 4,986/. ; and the
officer of the Seal office in the Common Pleas (the Duke
of Grafton) received 2.286/.—(Hear, hear.) It was his
candid opinion that all these offices should cease forthwith.
The Chancery in Scotland was in a similar state. The Earl
of Roselyn held an office th re, and i eceived 1,7121. a year ;
there was the clerk of the Ch ornery, who held the office as
trustee for the children of the Noble Earl, and who re-
ceived 9251. Tnere was the Comptroller of Customs
(Lord Leven), receiving 405/. ; and there was a Sir S.
Grant, holding an office whittle brought him in 3,208/. a
year. He should nut trouble the House further now, but
he should move his first Resolution, " That in all future
vacancies of sinecure offices, civil, military, naval, or
colonial, no new appointment shall be made, with any
salary, tee, or emolument thereto attached." if it was
necessary to give a precedent for this, it is to be found in
the case of the Admiral of Scotland, whose salary had
been reduced by that House, while the office itself, as an
honorary distinction, still remained. It had been sug-
gested to him that after the discussions which had taken place
on military and naval pensions, he had better omit that part
of his resolution. To avoid all objection, he should adopt
the suggestion. The second resolution lie should move
was, " That no person shall receive any salary, fee, or
other emolument, from any office to which he may be
hereafter appointed, the ditties of which may or shall be
performed by deputy." The principle of that r solution
was adopted by the House, in 1822, as to the Receiv rs-
General an I their deputies, and a saving of 170,0001. a
year was effected, and that case was a prec, dent, it any pre-
cedent wave wanted, for the adoption of the same course now.
The first resolution was then teed.
Lord ALTHORP said, that with respect to the sub-
stance of the minion of the Hon. Member, he had no ob-
jection to it. The ominciple, indeed, had not only been
reeo nized in that House, but acted urn in a great many
ins antes. Indeed in saying this, lie must take the oppor-
tunity of observing, that several of the offices mentioned
by the Hon. M •either were offices taken from the report
made in 1816, and had been entirely abolished since
that time. He could not at this moment follow the Hon.
Member through all the instances to which he bad re-
ferred, but he would mention one or two. He was sur-
prised at the ref, rence to the office told by Lord Thurlow
in the 13anktuptcy- office, for in the Bill of the year before
last it had been atiolislied.—(Hear ) It was nearly the
same with the case of one of the offices quoted from ti e
Courts in Scotland, the office said to be held by Lord F.
Campbell. That Nobleman had been dead for a great
number of years.---( Hear, hear.) H hoped, therefore,
that the House would not think that .ii the offices referred
to by the Hon. Member yet remained in existence.—
(Ile:r.) Sole few indeed did se, but most of those
were to be abolished at the death of the present holders.
A• to the second resolution which the Hon. Memlier had
read, now that it was confined to civil and colonial
offices, he had no objection to it; but he wi bed to ob-
serve to the Hon. Member, that as his Noble Friend be-
hind him (Liiid Ebtington) had given notice of a motion
fur a committee to inquire into military offices, the Hon.
Member had perhaps better not include them in his mo-
tion, the mile especially as he believed that the committee
would not be opposed by the G .vernment. He should,
indeed, suggest to his Noble Friend to add naval offices to
these respecting which he was about to move for a Com-
mittee of Inquiry.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said, that as the Noble Lord had treated
his proposition so very fairly, he should certainly adopt
the suggestion now tnaile of omitting naval and military
officers trout his motion.
The motiion was then amended thus—" That in all
future vacancies of sinecure offices in the civil and colo-
nial service of the country, no new appointment shall be
made with any salary, fee,or emolument thereto attached."
Celenel DAVIES observed, that the very fair manner
in which the Nettle Lord had met this motion would tend
most powerfully to restore and increase the confidence of
the country in the present Government.—(Heer, hear.)
He thought there was one point which hail been over-
looked by both parties, and that was an Act of Parlia-
ment (theio 2p2redveGneto.ihlell.,
futuree. 75)
grant by
o f wa
hn
I p' i te
wasnt
in
tendedoffices
longer time titan they should discharge the duties
thereof
person, and behave well therein. Yet, not.
withstanding this Act, there were the cases of Mr. Wit-
kins in one colony, of Mr. Su livan at Demerara, of Mr
for en n
Greville at another colony, an I of Lord Chatham, as
Governor of Gibraltar, who, though he never went neat
the place, received 3.4004 a year.
Lord ALTHORP, with reference to the observations
of the Gallant Colonel, remarked, that in the first case to
which he had alluded—that of Mr. Wilkihs—,he appoint
ment was made before the Aut was p ivied, and therekre
was not affected by it. In the next—that 01 Mr. Sullivan,
at Demerara—the office hail been abolished by thepreeent
Administration ; and as to Mr. Greville, that gentleman
had held two offices—one of these had the salary paid in
London, the Government, acting on the principle re-
!erred to by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and on that
of the Act in question, had stopped the payment of the
salary. It was true that the gentleman had been absent
ream the personal discharge of the duties of the other
~ffiee, but then he was absent on leave regularly obtained.
Sir J. HOPE complained of the injustice of confound-
ng naval and military men, who had earned a title to re-
wards, to these sinecuri-ts. The sinecures given to naval
end military men might be well defended on the ground of
past services, and on that alone did such men wish them
to be continued.
An HoN. Mxxxxx expressed the pleasure be felt at

the mode 14 which the Government had met the preaemt
question.
Lord EBRINGTON said, that after the statement made
by the Noble Lord, and the very fair manner in which he
had met the motion--a manner which must give general
satisfaction to the country—he should adopt the suggestion
which had been thrown out.
Lord SANDON said that all sinecures in Scotland had
been abolished by Act of Parliament already.
Captain YORKE (we believe), with reference to Naval
appointment's, said that all the members of that profession
desired nothing more than their case should be fairly and
impartially stated to the public; they would stand upon
their merits. All he wished was, that Naval appointments
and sinecures should be dealt with precisely the same as
others. The House of Commons were too generally more
influenced by a case set out in strong language than by a
strong case.
Mr. KENNEDY differed with the Right Hon. Member
for Liverpool, with respect to the total abolition of Scotch
sinecures. It was true that the Legislature had done away
with a certain portion, but Scotland was not yet so for-
tunate as to be entirely free from such plagues as sinecure
offices. He hoped, however, that, after the intimation
given by this House on the subject, Government would
not venture to fill up any more sinecure vacancies.
The motion was then put and carried.
Mr. HUME then addressed the House with reference
to colonial appointments, most of which were served by
d-puty, and were thus sinecure offices. Besides this, no
Person in this country knew any thing about even the
vacancies in the Colonial Department till he heard of their
being filled up, and most generally it turned out that the
persons appointed were so totally unfit or unworthy, that
had sufficient time been allowed, by previous notice of the
intended appointment, N consider its propriety, the ap-
pointment would infallibly have been negatived. It ap-
peared to him (Mr. Hume) that the intended appoint
ment ought to be Gazetted, so that every opportunity
might be given for examining into the claimant's efficiency.
Toe Hon. Member, after some further observations on the
system of colonial appointments, moved his second reso
lotion, " That no person should receive salary or molt's
me•.ts from any place which he fills by deputy."
Lord SANDON agreed with the Hon. Member for
Middlesex on this point. Sir George Murray's opinion
ale I fully confirmed that lion. Member's statement, and
he hoped that the resolution would be adopted.
Lord ALTHORP was not desirous of objecting to the
resolution ; he would only say, that he did not decidedly
pledge himself to adopt the Hon. Member's suggestion as
it stoo I.

The resolution was then carried.
Mr. HUM E said that he was anxious to understand from
the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer whether all future
appointments were to be subjected to such modifications
and deductions as might be thought advisable by his
Majesty's Ministers; that is, whether they were to un-
dergo the same modifications as the offices held by the
Ministry and others, which had already been considered
and subjected to deduction. He believed that at present
offizes were not generally liable to these modifications;
and he was desirous that vested rights, as be believed they
were called, should not militate against due inquiry and
improvement or the public benefit. This question he
was very desirous of having settled, anti he should, there-
fore move " That all aifficest filled up after this date, in any
department under the Crown—civil, military, naval, or
colonial— shall be subject to such alterations as to duties,
and deductions and a.teretions as to salary and ernolu-
mennts, as his Majesty's Minister., or the heads of the
&pater-lents, under the sanction of the House, s •all make,
without the persons so appointed having any claim lot
compensation or allowance for such alierations."
The motion heing put,
Lord ALTHORP entirely objected to this motion, be-
cause he considered it not only unnecessary, but as calling
into question the existent powers of Government, who,
as it was, had power to make every deduction and modi-
fication they thought advisable; and he himself had acted
upon this power in several important instances. The
Hon. Member's suggestion assumed that Government hail
not that power with respect to offices now in existence.
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON objected to the sugges-
tion. If the powers were now exi-tent it was unneces-
sary; and, if not, he ohjec ed to giving such en arbitrary
new power to the House. It would be impossible to
say to what extent this reductive power might be carried.
In either case he hoped his Hon. Friend would withdraw
his motion.
Mr. MUME was happy to hear the statement of the
Nobl- Lord. He would just put one question to him, and
if the answer were squally satisfactory, the resolution
should he readily withdrawn. This was with respect to
the Patent offices. Suppose one of the judges was, by
Act of Parliament, allowed a sale.), of 5,0001. a year,
would the Nehl • Lord siy that this could be influenced
o.her than by Act of Parliament ? If the answer were
in the affirmative, he would gladly withdraw his motion,
perfectly satisfied, with the Hon. Member, that it would
then be unnecessary.
Lord ALTHORP made some further explanation with
respect to patent offices and the judges' salary, which we
did not catch the exact tenor of; it waa, however, so far
satisfactory, that Mr. Hume withdrew hie motion.
The Bribery at Elections' Bill, on the motion of Lord
J. RUSSELL, was read a first time, and the second read-
ing was appointed for Tuesd iy next.
THE BUDGET.
Lord ALTHORP gave notice that, if the Hon. Member
for Whirehaven (Mr. M. Atwood) would postpone his
motion, standing.for to-morrow, he (Lord Althorp) was
prepared, and desired to bring forward the Budget on
that day, without !umber delay.—Mr. M. Attwood not
farina in the House, no answer was given.
Mr. STANLEY said that he had to intreat the indul-
gence of the House, with reference to the motion on Co-
lonial Slavery. He was placed in a state of great diffi-
culty; and, therefore, though well aware of the great
interest existing on this subject, and most anxious t a have
time question put at rest satisfactorily and speedily, and he
had to beg the H. so far to indulge him as to postpone
it to Tuesday, the 14th of May.—Leave given.
TRIAL OF OFFENCES' (IRELAND) BILL.
On the question being put, of the House going into
Cornelia, e on this Bill,
Mr O'CONNELL objected, that neither the principles
of the Bill, nor the grounds on which it was brought for-
ward, had yet been discussed, though the Ministers had
fully given the House to understand that this should be done.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE acknowledged the justice of
the Hon. Member's remonstrance, and expressed his rea-
diness to state, at once, the reasons why the Government
thought this Bill was advisable. The Bill had been passed
by the Upper House on precisely the same principle which
had led this House to pass the ate Irish Disturbance's Bill
—that of effecting the due course of justice in Ireland;
and in both cases he considered that circumstances fully
justified the respective Bills. The principle of the Bill
was unfortunately by no means a new one; for an Act
precisely similar in its preamble and leading clauses was
passed in the reign of George 111. The Right Hon. Se-
cretary then proceeded to detail many cases of intimiaa-
tion of jurors, &c., which had been repeatedly given in
this House on former occasions. He also mentioned
several cases of intimidation practised with refer-
ence to prisoners at the present Kilkenny Assizes.
The Right Honourable Member proceeded to read ex-
tracts received recently from different parties in Ire-
land, giving cases where numbers of people had been com-
pelled either to pay money in aid of prisoners, to abstain
from lodging informations or giving evidence against, and
compelled to give evidence in favour of persons under pin-
secution. The Han. Secretary also instanced the case of
Maurice Read, EN., a most active magistrate.--(Mr.
O'Connell : Hear, hear.) Yes, a most active and meri-
torious magistrate, who had been obliged to leave Ireland
in dread of the consequences of having done his duty.
Jurors were invari bly necessitated to carry fire arms ; and
in a late instance thirty-one persons having been appre-
hended for disturbances, a nuinher of respectable farmers
were compelled to come forward and become surety for
tie prisoners. Here was a state of things. (The
Right Hon. Secretary proceeded in detail of several
other similar communications, amidst repeated inter
ruptions, from ti e great confusion in the House.) He
thought no one could deny the for, that the ends of jus-
tice coul i not be effec ed in Ireland lay the ordinary forms
of the law. As an additional proof that it could not, he
hail read the extracts from those levers. He held in has
hand certain clauses, which, if the Bill were allowed to go
into Committee, would effect vie defraying of the ex.
tenses that might be incurred by the removal of the trial
of prisoners. The right of having the trials removed
. ould belong to the court, and not to the plaintiff or de-
fendant, or any parties concerned.
Mr. ID CONNEI,L said that he would move that
" t e resolutions be referred to a Select Conninitt,e, Who
would report to the House whether the facts justified their
necessity
by
sityortnauotn.;:ngThheimßigohitr.H(3l4..loSneenerio Secretary b, hisp
ex-
ploits. He should be gla.l to know what were the
exploits achieved by the Right Hun. Secretary, of which
lie could boast. He would make no attack upon the Right
Hon. Gentleman, but would repudiate his personal obser-
vations' as they deserved. If the grossest prejudice
~gainet the people of Ireland did not exist in that House,
there would not have been made such an attempt to trample
upon them as had been made that evening. By this Bill,
the peasant would be taken from that part of the county
where he was known, and the very fact of his removal