The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-30 00:00:00

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

The House having resolved itself into a Committee o 1
Supp;y,

Colonel MABERLY rose to move the Ordnance Esti-
mates. The Hon. Gentleman entered into a derailed state-
ment on the subj,ct, but such was the hubbub in the
House, occasioned by the conversation going on in every
quarter, that all we were able to collect was, that there
was a saving of 86.0001. on the whole of the Ordnance
Estim ites, as compared with those of last year ; and that
in the course of the last five years the Ordnance expendi-
tore had been diminished by 300,0001. He trusted that
what had been effected would show that his Majesty's
Ministers had done their duty, and that they had carried
retrenchment as far as was possible, consistently with the
public service. The Hon, Gentleman concluded by moving
that a sum not exceeding 71,996/. he granted to his Ma-
jesty for the civil establishments of the Ordnance, Tower,
Pall-Ma'l, and Dublin.
Mr. HUME regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had
not had more attention paid to him. He confessed, how-
ever, he had hoped that, as the House had evinced its de-
termination to reduce taxes to a considerable amount, the
Noble Lord opposite would have taken this hint, ar.d
would have felt the expediency of withdrawing the army,
navy, and ordnance estimates entirely, for the purpose of
remodeling them on a small-r scale. As it was probable
that such must eventually he the case, it appeared to be
almost useless to discuss these estimates. He strongly re-
commended the attachment of the engineers and artillery
to the office of the Commander-in-Chief, which would ef-
fect a saving of 70,000/. a year. Ours was the only army
in the world in which the artillery and engineers were
unknown to the Commander-in-Chief, except through the
Master- General.

Mr. BRISCOE said, it was the first duty of that House
to reduce the public expenditure as much as possible, and
they oueht to pay to the observations on the subject of the
lion. Member for Middlesex the attention to which they
were entitled.

The CHAIRMAN requested Gentlemen would be
pleased to take their places.
Mr. HUME proceeded, and expressed his lope that his
Maj-sty's Government would feel the necessity, and that
they would be pressed by the vote of that House to mor-
row to feel the necessity, of raking off two millions and a
half from the Estimates generally., arid then distributing
that reduction, as to them might seem best, over the
Army, Navy, and Ordnance establishments. He re-
peated that, in his opinion, his Majesty's Govern
went would do wisely to adopt the precedent of 1616, and
to withdraw the Estimates at once, and come down with
them on a smaller scale. Before he sat down, he wished
to ask if the inconvenient prac ice of sending for Clerks
from the Tower to Pall-mall was put an end to?
_ _ _

Lord ALTHORP said teat the Hun. Gentleman had
recommended him (Lord Althorp) to withdraw the es-
timates for the purpose of reducing them. If he (Lord
Althorp) thought that they were greater than the pt.blic
service required, lie should certainly do right to adopt
the Hon. Gentleman's proposition. But if that were the
case, he should have done exceedingly wrong in allowing
them to be introduced in their present form. As to the
other proposition made by the Hon. Gentleman—namely,
the c ,nsolidation of the Ordinance Office with that of
the Commander•in-Chief—it was his opinion, and that of
his colleagues, that where consolidation of offices was prac-
ticable, it was highly desirable. His Right Hon. Friend
at the heyd of the Admiralty had sufficiently proved the
disposition of his Majesty's Government on that point.

Colonel NIABERLYwas sorry to say no arrangement
had taken place, in consequence of want of accommoda-
tion, to prevent the occasional transfer of clerks from the
Tower to Pall-mall.
After a few more observations from Mr. HUME and
Colonel MADERLY the vote was agreed to.
The following votes were then, after a brief and unin-
teresting discussion, agreed to:-
8,965/. for salaries of the Ordnance Office at Woolwich.
14,9191. for salaries of the Ordnance Department on
the borne stations.

26,8711. fur salaries of the Ordnance Establishment at
the out-stations in Ireland, and those on foreign stations.

37,7501. fur salaries of Barrack masters, Deputy Bar-
rack-masters, and Barrack Sergeants.
5,0101. for salaries of Master-gunners in the garrisons
of Great Britain, Guernsey, Jersey, and Ireland.
Colonel MABERLY then proposed that a sum not ex-
ceeding 8,0191. be granted to his Majesty to defray the
salaries of the corps of Royal Engineers, commonly called
Sippers and Miners, and the establishment for its in-
struction.
The vote was agreed to,

Cohind MAI:MU Y proposed a vote of 277,156/. for
the charge of the Royal Regiment of Artillery.
Mr. HUME thought that this vote ought to be reduced.
The regiment of artillery amounted to above 7.000 men.
He wished to know what it WaR that rendered such a
large artillery force necessary. There were about 4,000
artillerymen in the United Kingdom alone ; and the ar-
tillery in the Colonies was kept up to the war establish.
ment. He thought there was no want of artillerymen in
Canada, which had so fine a militia, and where he be-
lieved there was not a gun fired from January to Decem-
ber. He should propose that the number of men should
be reduced to 5,000 ; and that was larger than the num-
ber in 1792.
Colonel MABERLY observed, that the necessity of
reliefs upon foreign stations, and the length of time taken
to instruct the men in the numerous and scientific duties
of the artillery, justified the keeping up of such a force as
this. The Master-General of the Ordnance had had five
applications from the Colonies for reliefs, all of which he
had been obliged to refuse, and he had now only two relief
companies at his disposal.
Mr. HUME still was not able to see that the duties
could not be performed with the same number of men as
in 1792, and he should therefore persevere in his motion
If Honourable Members wished to make a reduction in
taxation, they could not do it as honest men, but by
reducing the establishments.
Colonel LINDSAY (as we understood) defended the
vote on the ground of the absolute necessity of having a
body of scientific soldiers ready for any emergency. A
short period would suffice to instruct men to be soldiers
iif the line, but not to perform the duties of scientific
artillerymen. The state of the artillery, and the value of
that arm could not now be fairly measured by the standard
of 1792.
Mr. HUME moved that the vote should be reduced from
277,156/. to 184 771/.
Colonel MABERLY said, that with regard to the num-
ber of men in 1792, the Hon. Member had not taken into
his calculation the number of artillerymen then in Ireland,
who were not at that time returned as part of the eats-
bliehment of this country.
Mr. YOUNG had entered that House with the deter-
mination to support the Hon. Member for Middlesex, but
on this occasion he must say, that he did nut think the
Hon. Member had given a sufficient reason for this specific
reduction ; on the other hand, good reasons had been
given to maintain the artillery in its present state. He
should, therefore, in this instance, vote against the motion.
Mr. TENNYSON generally agreed with the Han.
Member for Middlesex, but he must say, that in this
case he thought the proposed reduction was highly inex-
pedient. The length of time required for the instruction
of an artillery soldier was considerable. The present
establishment amounted to 7,000 men, which was hut
one-fifth of the war establishment. There was one part
of this vote which he would willingly refer to a Committee
of Inquiry—he meant that which put the cost of the
artillery for the Colonies at 99,000/. He bad no objection
to refer this article to a Committee, to ascertain how far
the duty and the abilities of the Colonies required them to
support this istablishment.
Mr. RUI HVEN wondered how it was possible for
those who voted for a reduction of taxes, to support these
extravagant establishments.

Mr. T. ATTWOOD contended that the maintenance
of the good faith and honour of the country was p ,ra-
mount to every other consideration ; he, therefore, would

not refuse the supplies necessary for so important a branch
of the public service. At the present moment, he thought
a force of 2,000 artillery was wanted at Constantinople.
Mr. G. ROBINSON objected to the reductions pro-
posed by the Hon. Member for Middlesex. The artillery
was the last branch of the public service that ought to
be cut down.
The Committee divided—
For the resolution l4O
Against it
Majority

--I(yJ

. .
The following resolutions were agretd to without dis-
cussion :

35,0001. for the Horse Artillery.
584/ ter the Director-general of Artillery.
45,9341. for the superintendence of the ordnance works
and repairs.

85.0001 for store-keeper' expenses.
Colonel MABERLY also moved that 25,587/. be
granted for the superintendence of the building and repair
of barracks.

Mr. HUME observed that it was hopeless, after the
experiment just tried, to expect the House to support any
reductions ; and the sooner, therefore, it closed its doors
the better.

Tile subsequent votes were carried, after a single re
mark from Mr. TENNYSON and Mr. HUME.

65.792/. for the Barrack-masters' expenditure.
129,7191. for contingencies.
83,0001. for stores.
346 564/. for sup. r innuation and retired allowances,
pensions to widows, L..

On the proposal to grant 2,179/. for exchequer fees—
Mr. HUME meant to take the sense of the House
upon it. Every successive Chancellor of the Exchequer,
for many years, had promised to abolish these fees, yet
they were always continued from year to year.
Lord ALTHORP remarked that a Bill for their aboli-
tion was in preparation.
Mr. HUME replied, that that answer had been made
nine years ago. Would the Noble Lord fix a day for
bringing in the Bill ?
Lord ALTHORP added, that it had been some time in
preparation, and that the subject was extremely compli-
cated. The measure was in a forward state of preparation.
Mr. HUME asked whether the Noble Lord would pledge
himself that the Bill should be brought in and passed this
Session ?

Lord ALTHORP was understood to decline any such
positive undertAing.

Lord G. SOMERSET agreed that the subject was in-
volved in many difficulties.
After a few wordy from Mr. YOUNG and Colonel 111A-
SMUT, the Resolution was agreed to without a division.

The Vote of 7,0001. for the Fortifications at Jersey was
then agreed to.
On the question that the CHAIRMAN do report pro-
gre•is, and ask leave to sit again,
Mr. HUME said, the House would recollect that a
Committee had some time ago been appointed, and had
[mole a report upon the subject of public documents. For
twelve years before the appointment of that Committee,
Mr. Marshall, a gentleman knos, n to many Hon. Mem-
bers, had devoted his time and attention, and b id incurred
great expense in the compilation of a work embracing the
largest, the in: st useful, and the moat various body of
statistics ever before collected in one publication, displa-
ing, as it did, in a manner the most clear and satisfactory,
and with the utmost facility of reference, a ma-s of the
most complete information respecting the income and ex_
pentliture—tile resources, commercial, manufacturing, and
agricultural—in a few words, every possible species of
information connected with the property and the finances
of the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was not alone his
own opinion that he was stating of that great and valu
able work, hut a late Chancellor of the Exchequer, the
Member for Harwich, had gone the length of saying th it
in his opinion ten thousand guineas would not produce
the services of the vitt aordinary talent that hail been
employed in that compilation. He (Mr. Hume) considered
a work of that kind as nothing less than a great national
undertaking, and he could inform the House that works
of a sin it it kind were looked upon as great national
undert,kings, both in the United States and amongst the
most civilized and advanced countries of Europe. His
Majesty's Government had thought so favourably of the
work, that they had gone as far as perhaps an Executive
Government ought, in awarding to Mr. Marshall a sum of
5001. ; but he had no difficulty in saying that fifty times
that sum would scarcely represent the value that such a
compilation would be likely to prove to the community;
and he felt quite assured, that if Hon. Members would
only take the trouble to refer to the book itself, they would
be at once sensible of its importance. He was aware that
a new department was about to be established for statisti-
cal purposes, and of that department lie highly approved ;
and he hoped that it would be carried to a much greater
extent than had been originally proposed ; but whether it
was or was not formed was a question which had no bear-
ing upon the present discussion. It was of the utmost
importance that the Members of that House and the con-
stituency at large should be made acquainted with the
actual expense of every portion of the public service, and
of every island, and every colony connected with Great
Britain. He concluded by moving it as the opinion of
the Committee, that a sum of 2,6251. should be paid to
Mr. Marshall, for 1,250 copies of his Digest of Public
Documents since 1799.
Lord ALTHORP had, upon his own responsibility,
agreed that Mr. Marshall should be paid a sum of 5001.
already, which was a pretty good proof that he thought
favourably of the work ; it was for Parliament to say
whether any flit ther sum ought to he granted.
Mr. METHUEN was surprised that in the present dis-
tressed state of the country the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex should be found proposing such an expenditure of
the
pubic tnoney—expended, too, for the benefit of an in-
dividual respecting whom they knew nothing, except upon
the apse dixit of the Hon. Member for Middlesex.
iir.o. F. YOUNG said that the merits of Mr. Mar-
shall and the value of his work were known, not alone to
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, but to other Members of I

that House. He had himself looked into the work, an d
looked through it very carefully too, and he felt called on
to say, that in the whole course of his reading and experi-
ence, he had never seen a greater quantity of information
brought within so narrow a compass, and information of
a kind in the highest degree useful to Members of
Parliwnent.

Mr. WARBURTON concurred with the last speaker,
and with the Member for Middlesex, bearing his testi-
mony to the value of the work.
An HON. MEMBER could not agree to such an appro-
priation of public money. He said that the notoriety
which the present debate gave to the work would more
than compensate for any trouble the author might have had.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the work had been recom-
mended by the report of the Committee, and he really
thought the resolution proposed by the Hon. Member for
Middlesex ought to be agreed to. He had objections to
many other votes of public money, but to that he cer-
tainly give his most cordial concurrence.
An HUN. MEatngf could not agree to saving other
Members the expense of this work by putting his hands
into the public purse.

Mr. M. ATT WOOD supported the grant.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL strongly supported the grant
As to its expense, the House should recollect that the re
search into a single question very often costs 2,0001.
Mr. SLANEY was also strongly in favour of the grant,
as a point of economy.
Mr. P. THOMSON, though at the same time ac-
knowledging the value of the work, should oppose the
grant ; first, on account of the principle it involved, and,
second'y, on account of the mode in which it was pro-
posed to cooler it. According to the principle it involved,
it a man, proprio motu, chooses to work at any such a
dry and uninteresting subject as statistics, and finds a
market for it, when done, among the public, he may come
down to the House, and insist upon their purchasing it.
There would be no end to this sort of thing. There were
many works by approved writers of this nature. He
thought it a most unwarrantable proposition that the
House should be called upon to pay 2,500/. for putting a
new book into the book-cases of Hon. Members. He
should decidedly oppose the grant.
Mr. WILLIAMS WYNN was in favour of the grant,
the work was a highly useful one, and richly merited
pubic encouragement. It ought to meet with a better
fate than Mr. Hetsell's great work, which, though con.
stilted daily by the House as an indisputable authority,
did not pay its expenses ; indeed Mr. Hatsell had been a
considerable 100.-r by the work.
Mr. BRISCOE supported the grant.
Mr. AGLIONBY was opposed to the grant as it at
present stood.

Lord SANDON was also opposed to the grant on its
present terms. As to the ability of the work there was no
doubt, though, out of all the Members, except to about a
hundred, it would he mere waste paper. He would not
object to encouraging the meritorious compiler with a
drfinite sum, and would therefore propose as an amend-
ment, to strike out the words, " not exceeding," and sub-
stitute 10001.

The House having divided, there appeared—
For Lord Sandon's amendment 75
Against it
Majority
During our absence the House divided a second time, on
an amendment proposed by Mr.O'CONNELL that 15001.
should be granted to Mr. Marshall.—There appeared.

For this amendment - 78
Against it
Majority
A division then took place on Mr. Hunteits
motion, when there appeared—

For the motion lO6
Against it BB
Majority in favour of the grant...--18
LUNATIC COMM SSIONS' BILL.

The Order of the Day having tree❑ read for taking into
further consideration the report of the Lunatic Commis-
slow' Bill,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL then moved that the
Bill be r,-committed.

Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said, that when
they came to the first clause of the Bill he should move an
amendment, to the effect, that Commissioners should not
reside in London, nor confine themselves to it, but visit
all parts of the country at certain periods of the year. He
had also an amendment to propose on the second clause.
He should take the sense of the House on those
amendments.

Mr. WYNN complained that the Bill did not tend to
lessen the enormous expenses attending on Lunatic Com-
rnis,ions.

Mr. PEPYS (we believe) approved of the plan of send-
ing visitors into different parts of the country, as it ;you'd
be the cause of having more care extended to lunatics.
The Bill, as it stood, he considered a great improvement,
as it would enable the Lord Chancellor to discharee a
very delicate part of his duty and have lunatics better
attended to.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that after the
observations he had heard, he would acquiesce in the
Chairmain's reporting progress to the House.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress and obtained leave
to sit again on Nlonday.

EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS,

TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.

Stn—lt is not a little surprising that the principal oh.
jection made to the admission of the Jews to civil rights in
England should rest upon their religious scruple to take an
oath after a particular form. It is not alleged that the
Jews object to the enlist Ince of the oath required, or that
having taken it they would neglect the observance of any
obligation which it might impose ; but solely that they
will not—because they cannot conscientiously—adopt the
exact words in which it is put. Now it must really asto-
nish every thinking person that the preservation of the
Christian religion should be made to depend more upon
the manner of swearing, than upon the matter sworn to,
or that any one whom a religious scruple would prevent
from adopting the form of an oath could be supposed to be
indifferent to its sacred obligations.
The words by which the Jews are excluded from a full
participation in the civil rights of their Christian brethren,
occur in the oath of abjuration, and are " On the true
faith of a Christian." Now, the oath of abjuration was
framed during the reign of William 111., for the express
purpose of excluding from the throne of England the
exiled branch of the House of Stuart, and consequently
cannot be regarded as coeval with the Constitution. Be-
fore that time the Christians themselves only took the
oaths of supremacy and allegiance. Now, no person can
be ignorant of the fact that these oaths contain not a single
expression which implies the person taking them to pro.
fess the Christian religion. Both conclude, like the oath now
taken by the Catholics, with a simple appeal to the Deity.
This being the case, it is evident that the words, " On the
true faith of a Christian" were not considered necessary
to the preservation of the Christian religion, otherwise they
would have been introduced long before, and they may
therefore be regarded as a proper object of legislation.
And as the date of their introduction, as well as their
omission in the Catholic oath, skews they are not neces•
nary to the preservation of the Christian religion, and as
the fact of there being no Jews connected with the appear-
ance of the Pretender in this country, as well as no mention
whatever being made of them, sufficiently proves that the
enactment was ant intended to affect them, it may be con-
fidently asserted the non insertion of these words in the
oath to be taken by the Jews is neither an attack upon
Christianity, nor an invasion of the principles of the British
Constitution. Until it be shewn that Englishmen were
less religious or less loyal before the appearance of Charles
Edward Stuart in this country, than they have been since,
it can hardly be asserted that " On the true faith of a
Christian" forms a necessary part of the declaration to be
taken previous to admission to the rights of British
subjects.

Another thing to be observed is, that when the abjura-
tion oath was first enacted, an Act was passed enabling the
Jews to abjure the Pretender, by taking another form of
oath not containing this sentence. So that when the
object to be gained was an additional security for the alle•
giance of the Jews, the Legislature did not hesitate to set
aside that form of oath which at present is the only thing
that prevents the admission of the Jews to all the civil
rights of Christians.
Again, it ought to be borne in mind that the essence of
an oath consists in the appeal which is made to the Deity,
not in any words expressive of the swearer's particular
form of belief. To swear by who-ever is most sacred is
the only security which we can have that the oath will be
attended to. Now the Jews swear by the living God,
whom they worship on the books of the law which we
Christians acknowledge to be the foundation of our faith,
and as their religious scruples are the only barriers which
prevent them from participating in all the civil rights of
their Christian brethren, nothing can possibly be more
absurd than to hear their admission to civil offi,es or seats
in Parliament objected to on the pretext that when sworn
to ;ireserre inviolate the rights of Christianity it would
suffer more from their attacks than now when they are
under no such obligation
On the contrary, it cannot be too often repeated, tha
the safest guarantee of the punctuality with which the
Jews may be expected to fulfil the obligations contracted
by the oaths proposed to be taken by them, on the passing
of the present Relief Bill, is found in th- privations which
they now endure, rather than violate their consciences by
taking the abjuration oath. As ro the form. it has varied
in different cow:frit-1, and often in different parts of the
same country, being never thought of much consequence.
In Scotland, no oaths whatever are administered on the
Evangelists, the form being for the person swearing to
aver the truth of his statement by holding up his right
hand, and appealing to God, before whom he professes his
belief, that be shall ansNer at the day of judgment. The
oath taken by Roman Catholics on their admissions to seats
in the House of Commons, contains an express provision
for the preservation of the interests of the Established
Church, framed, as it may be supposed, with the greatest
care to that pur pose, and that oath, in the very words in
which it is couched, the Jews are quite willing to take.
In a word, the Jews are willing to give every pledge by
which they could be conscientiously bound, of their readi-
ness to yield the most unqualified allegiance to the &we-
reign, and submission to the laws, which is consistent
with the strict ohservance of their own religious rites ;
but above all, they are most willing to bind themselves not
to interfere directly or indirectly with the rights of the
Established Church, or the interests of the Christian
religion. I have the honour to be, &c.
A FRIEND TO FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE.
London, April 25,
P.S. Many of your readers may not be aware that the
second reading of the Jew Relief Bill is fixed for Wednes-
day, the Ist of May.