The Sun.
London, England, 1834-06-03 00:00:00

!WM

they professed, or were supposed to entertain, and act upon
it at once ? (Hear.) The commission was to investigate
the revenues of. the Protestant church, and to inquire into
how many Protestants there might be in each parish in
Ireland ; not • only how many Protestants, but also to ex-
amine the segments into which Protestantism was divided,
and ascertain how many were to be allotted to John Cal-
vin, and how many to Martin Liither, and what number to
John Wesley ? (Hear and' laughter.) Were the commis-
sioners to take people's adherence to the thirty-nine
articles into consideration ? Was there also to be a
crusade of that kind ? (Laughter.) If any one said,
" I can only sign thirty-eight of the articles," was he
to be distinguished from the more completely orthodox,
and were there to be thirty-eight article „men as well as
thirty-nine article people ? (Hear, and laughter.) Were
the commissioners to go into the numbers of the Roman
Catholics ? He, for one, was content that they should ;
he was willing to have that inquiry, because he believed
that the Catholics would be found to be pretty much as they
were. Were the commissioners -to go to the police force
and count the numbers, and see that the same men should
not be estimated twice—told off in Cork, and then again in
another county ? Were they to examine the present state
of the population, to ascertain the number of births since the
last return, to investigate the obituaries, to go on canvass-
ing all people and looking into all subjects in this vague
and interminable way ? Why, such a system of inquiry
would prove a Penelope's web, there would be no end to it.
(Laughter.) Fever or cholera might make a serious dif-
fererice in the proportion of Protestantism in a parish, and
fresh inquiries would be constantly demanded. This was
the unsatisfactory commission which was now offered to
Ireland, instead of a full and healing measure ; and yet,
even about this paltry commission, gentlemen could not
agree, because it seemed to promise -something, however
remote or incomplete, for that unhappy country. Oh,
how unanimous you were when you were coercing Ire-
land ! There was then no difference in the Cabinet ;
you inflicted courtsmartial upon Ireland without-hesitation
or dispute ! When you were about to coerce Ireland you
were perfectly unanimous, but now in the work of concilia-
tion you were for the first time divided! Those who had se-
parated themselves from Ministers on this occasion had at
least acted an open and manly part ; not so those who re-
mained in the cabinet. With respect to them he would
say, ‘lYou shrink from affirming what is or ought to be
your own principle ; you offer us a nugatory and deceptive
commission ; you throw this tortoise-shell over yourselves
in order that you may have a chance of creeping at a.
snail's pace out of- the difficulty." (Laughter.) What
was the situation of Ireland in reference to the Protestant
church ? Arrears of tithes were due to the Protestant
clergy, and also to lay impropriators to a considerable ex-
tent. Were the commissioners to ascertain.the amount of
tithes in every parish, or would government stand on the
old valuation? In eight teat of ten parishes the valuation
was complete. Were the arrears due to the clergy and
lay impropriators to be first levied on the country, and then
were the police and military to be sent out to collect the
new land-tax ? What would be the result of all this ?
He did not like to dwell on the subject. Meanwhile, how-
ever, we were to have a commission to ascertain something
or other, when we were like to have a winter of blood and
a spring of more coercion. ( Hear.) This was not a ques-
tion between • two sections of the Cabinet, it was a much
higher question—a question of conciliation towards Ireland.
That country was never more ready and willing to be con-
ciliated than at present. But how ? By fair words and pro-
mises ? No; but by acts. Give us acts and deeds, adopt a
decided and satisfactory course in relation to this subject,
and then you will conciliate Ireland. (Hear, hear. )
You have now a fovourable opportunity—the Irish Tithe
Bill is before the house ; it contains the principle of
appropriation. You were wiling to give up that. Give
us a proper and satisfactory recognition of the principle.
The hon. member for Donegal quoted the hon. baronet
the member for Oxford University with respect to " the
expansive nature of protestantism." If the observation
applied to Ireland, it ought to have been " the expensive
nature of protestantism." (Laughter.) What he asked
for was to introduce appropriation as a clear and distinct
principle of the measure before the house. He had said
that the principle should be acted on in parishes where
the proportion of protestants was less than one-fourth of
the population. The right hon. gentleman opposite erro-
neously attributed to him " one-fifth" as the proportion
which he had referred to. He might have said in private
conversation that there was not one-tenth of the popula-
tion protestant in parishes with which he was acquainted
—in Kerry, for instance. He asked, in the name of com-
mon. justice and common sense, whether under such cir-
cumstances the present system ought to be supported?
( Hear, hear.) That cheer said " No;" it implied that
t ought not to be kept up ; why not put what appeared to
be the sense of the government and the house upon record,
oy acceding to the motion of the, hon. member for St.
Albans, to whom both England and Ireland were indebted
or bringing it forward ? The character of ministers
was of importance; it was, or ought to be, precious to
Ireland—that character it was their duty to maintain
and elevate ; but how could they do so when they
hesitated to put boldly on record their acquiescence
in the principle of appropriation, thereby showing
that they were worthy of their trust and true to themselves,
by openly maintaining what they at present merely affected
Jr pretended to think ? ( Hear.) It was in your power
o make the important declaration—lreland looked to you
with anxiety. You had told the Sovereign that you were
ready to redress the evils of Ireland; by an overwhelming
majority you had recently negatived that plan of redress to
which Ireland was and would be attached, and from which
it could not, be detached, unless by satisfactory concessions,
such as were now demanded. It, therefore, behoved the
house and the government to do justice upon the present
question. When the people of Ireland read this debate,
ald saw that instead of embracing the great principle of
appropriation, it merely related to little personal matters,
and when they saw the ministerial majority against the
irofessed principle of the minority, a majority swelled by
the late Secretary for the Colonies, and by others, whose
support was the result of a cunning and equivocal friend-
;hip, would not the people feel great disappointment and
indignation, and would not they mock him to scorn if he
were to give ministers his confidence? Wouldthey not say,
and with apparent justice, " Our supposed friends and ad-
vocates are miserably deluded, or else they are deluders in
supporting ministers ; they are truckling to the govern-
ment with private views, and endeavouring to promote
their own interests at the expense of their country." Sup-
pose this result to be brought about, in what degree would
a benefit ministers? Perhaps they might get another set
of agitators in the place of the present ; they might get
worse. (Laughter.) He would tell them that, and they
might do worse even if they could succeed in ruining the
character of men whom he now told the government they
could not purchase, and whom he did not wish to suppose
that ministers were weak enough to attempt to deter from
their duty. (Hear, hear.) England had tried with Scot-
land the game she was now playing in Ireland. How often
d.d the walls of that house echo with declarations of an in-
tention to establish firmly, and maintain unshaken, the
system of episcopacy in Scotland? How often did majo-
rities here express their scorn at the idea of allowing the
Scotch to throw off the surplice and reject the orders and
regulations of the established church? But nevertheless,
the ministers of that day were defeated by the good broad
swords of the Scotch. For fifty years England persecuted
a people which conscientiously differed from it on points of
doctrine and discipline, but all the attempts to establish
episcopacy in Scotland failed. Was a different result to
be expected in Ireland in the present day? Was Ireland
a Protestant country ? No. It was not by the govern-
ment calling Ireland a Protestant country, that it could
be rendered so, but only by the people becoming Protes-
tant. Did ministers want a commission of inquiry to show
the enormous majority of Catholics in Ireland? Did they
want such an inquiry as to the fact of the small minority
which the Protestants of that country constituted? He
put it to the right hon. gentleman opposite whether he
entertained any doubt on the subject ; if so, let the right
hon. gentleman go to the parishes of Loughlin and Shana-
golden, in which he was a considerable proprietor, and see
the relative numbers of Catholics and Protestants ; the
eight hon. gentleman could not want any. inquiry for that
purpose. It was idle to talk of a commission of inquiry.
( Hear, hear.) If you first established the principle of ap-
propriation, you might afterwards proceed to work out its
details by means of a commission, but we wanted no preli-
ninary inquiry. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Stan-
ley) said, if you sent out a commission the Whiteboys might
soon change the relative proportion of Protestants and'
Catholics in certain parishes. It was possible that such a
thing might happen, but he hoped and believed it was not
likely. He could refer the right hon. gentleman to a
county which had been desolated of its Catholic inhabi-
tants at a former period. Undoubtedly the prin-
ciple was a dreadful one, and might be mischievously exer-
cised both against Catholics and Protestants. No man
could deprecate any thing of the kind more than him-
self. But it would be easy to obviate any risk of that
kind if a date already passed were selected for esti-
mating the relative proportions of Catholics and Pro-
testants—the Ist of March, for instance, might b 6
the day fixed, and thus we should get over that clan=
ger at least. (Hear, hear.) But was there no other
evil to be dreaded ? Did not the great mischief and evil
in Ireland consist in the dissensions existing between Ca
tholics and Protestants ? The house had that night heard
sentiments of self-gratulation expressed on the part of the
Protestants at the prospect of the church being upheld in
Ireland; what would be the feelings of the Catholics?
See the wretched absurdity and mischief created by youi
dominant church in Ireland :
.the law gave the Protestant'
a superiority in that country, and because they possessed a
legal superiority, they were induced to imagine that they
also possessed a physical and moral superiority. Was this
fallacious idea to be encouraged? Were the people of Ire-
land to be set against each other for the maintenance of
the principle of pure Protestantism ? (Hear, hear.) Was
this gross injustice to be committed? Government and
the Legislature were arrived at a period when they might
do much good by proceeding boldly and actively, but the
method now proposed to be adopted was a mere mockery;
and could not be attended with any successful result. Gen.
tlemen opposite must themselves admit that if we did not
first establish the principle of appropriation the Govern.
ment commission would be neither more nor less 'than a
rambling proclamation to array the Protestant and Catholics

in.eiatcahtinogthedris.
ti(nHeteioarn.s),
Int wouldy peaxrcisithe party
epira:cde s s against
o n ,
and meetings. Then would come the daily riot, the even-
ing collision, and fhe midnight murder. (Hear.) It would
tcalGLoe
Government.
rxaoeptfmet erermiimnuptre.tenittTh. Protestantismaerr lyhl.deaepiseei
rtetep:l
be diiseminating in Ireland an additional motive to excite-
ment—another cause of dissension. They had tried the prin-
ciple._
to
oeehtfi
see
tr elrelandl3:alisdtrw abandoned—doo for 200
anooo4. yearseaexc itnoteive effective
to fall into the arms of this country—to join the ranks of
minority working out the great principles obf the Reform
Bill with energy andsincerity ; they desired so to strengthen
the hands of the administration as not to allow the possi-
bility of parties in any quarter, either in the vicinity of that
house or elsewhere, resisting the King's Government with
a prospect of success. (Hear, hear.) Ireland was ready
to assist you, but Ireland would not accept chaff for whole-
some food. She required more than words and • promises
she demanded acts and deeds that did not admit of am-
biguity or mistake. Think not to satisfy hungry Ireland
by talking of roast beef, or to assuage her thirst with a
drinking- song (Laughter) ; she required something real
and substantial, and would laugh to scorn all empty pro-
mises and professions. Ireland would despise your commis-
sion of inquiry which you offer, without pledging yourself
to anything except to a quarrel with the late Secretary for
the Colonies. (Hear, and laughter.) Nobody could more
respect the sincerity, manliness, and integrity of that right
hon. gentleman than himself, but at the same time he
thought the right hon. gentleman's policy the very worst
that could have been adopted with respect to Ireland. The
right hon. gentleman had swamped the Ministry ; from
the first he was its evil genius, a calamity to the Cabinet,
but his honour and principles were undoubted (Hear) :
high in the powers of his genius, and firm in the
assertion of principle (Hear, hear), the right hon. gen-
tleman could lay claim to the merit of consistency. He
was ready to do the right hon. gentleman full justice, but
everybody was aware how much mischief he had done the
government. However, the Cabinet had parted with the
right hon. gentleman on good terms, and reckoned upon
his future support. (Hear and laughter.) A very pathetic
scene followed, worthy of a novelist's pen ; but although
the right hon. gentleman seemed to weep a little at part-
ing with his late colleagues, he soon resumed his wonted
air, and proved his rigid and unbending adherence to his.
oven principles. He called upon ministers and the house
to adopt the same lion part—they had tinder their protec-
tion every sect ; and if they began with an equitable prin-
ciple in Ireland, they would shortly be enabled to do more
justice to England. Do this act of justice to Ireland, and
you would'soon be able to reduce the pension list and re-
peal the Septennial Act, When gentlemen once felt the
sweets and advantages of popularity, they would be led on
from good to better. (A laugh.) Let them, then, begin
with Ireland in this instance. He had indulged in some
appearance of hilarity, but his mind sunk when he con-
sidered the hopeless and irreparable loss that gentlemen
sitting on the ministerial bench had experienced. (Cheers
and laughter.) You could not get back the right ho-
nourable gentleman (Mr. Stanley) if you wished—that
was out of the question. You had cut the bridge be-
hind you, there was no retreating ; then go forward.
( Hear, hear.) You heard the cheer of Tuesday at the
noble lord's announcement ; vitt would hear that cheer
again if you were to embrace the principle of appropriation.
( Hear; hear.) Never was ministry so strong as you, if
you would declare and work out that principle ; but never
was Ministry so weak, if you stopped short or hesitated.
( Hear, hear.) If you chose you could be thus strong, and
in no other quarter could there be any competition. If
you now shrank from your duty, you had had your warn- '
ing, although from a quarter which you might distrust or
despise. The learned gentleman proceeded to say, that if
Ireland had been happily separated by 300 leagues from
England, then would not the blessings of God in the for-
mer country have been turned into the bitterest curses ;
then would not the Irish (a Catholic people) be compelled
to support in splendour a Protestant church. Gentlemen
talked much of what had been done for us by England
since the period of the union, but he could see no trace of
any solid advantage conferred upon Ireland, with the ex-
ception of what had been reluctantly wrung from this
country. We now prostrated ourselves before you, not in
weakness, but in a spirit of voluntary humility and concili-
ation, and requested justice at your hands. It was your
duty to pacify Ireland. Show your Christian and chari-
table, as well as just feelings, by doing so. We confessed
ourselves in your power—we had no intention of revolt or
resistance—we implored you for this boon—we asked you
to pass the present resolution. (Hear, hear.) Still more,
did you wish to strengthen the administration, support
the resolution, support the friends of justice and libe-
rality in the Cabinet; for lie assumed that it was not yet
formed, no new writs having been moved for. (" Hear,"
and a laugh.) You could not reclaim the right hon.
gentleman (Mr. Stanley), he was irrecoverably lost ;
but no one else was so pledged, not even the right hon.
baronet ( Sir J. Graham), whose loss would be undoubt-
edly great, if he finally relinquished a department into
which he had introduced mo t important reforms. He
called upon gentlemen opposite to repudiate the proposi-
tion for the previous question, and asked how the right
hon. gentleman (Mr. Stanley), with his manliness and
sincerity, could assent to a vote by which he affirmed the
principle of appropriation, at least in some degree? It was
hardly consistent with the right hoe. gentleman's charac-
ter, to meet the resolution of the hon. member for St.
Albans in that manner. He had trespassed on the house
at considerable length, and if time allowed, would still
proceed, but more in sorrow than in anger. Last week he
thought he had seen a streaking of the political-horizon,
with a new and cheeringlight for his unhappy country ; but
he now found it to be a mere ignus fatuus—not the genial
light which would shed lustre and happiness upon Ireland.
( Hear, hear.) Did we ask you to persecute or injure our
Protestant fellow-countrymen? God forbid. There was
not a Protestant in the house who could be more anxious
to resist any such proceeding than he was. All he asked
was justice. Do this, and you would have all England
and Scotland, and everything valuable in Ireland with you.
( Hear, hear.) We only wished to have that incubus
shaken off, which had long injured and insulted the Catho-
lics. We talked not of superiority for ourselves, all we
asked of you was that, in the construction of the bill rela-
tive to the Irish established church, you Should at length
do that justice to Ireland which England obtained for her-
self, which Scotland extorted from you, and which Ire-
land, through his humble voice, now implored you to
grant. (Cheers. )
Mr. C. GRANT said that it was not his intention to
trespass at any length upon the patience of the house, or
follow in detail the speech pronounced by the eloquent
gentleman who had just resumed his seat. However
much he differed from that hon. and learned gentleman in
general on the subject of Ireland, he always heard him with
sympathy and respect when speaking of the wrongs which
in former times that country had sustained. But the mis-
fortune was that the hon. gentleman was equally eloquent'
with regard to Ireland whether discussing measures of de-
cided relief to that country, or complaining that beneficial
measures were deficient in extent. He was at a loss to see
any argument in the hon. gentleman's speech which tended
to support the original resolution on satisfactory grounds :
for the hon. member, although professing to be favourable
to that resolution, was decidedly against a commission,
notwithstanding the hon. member for St. Albans had said
that his first step upon the recognition of his resolution
must be with a view to the issuing of a commission. The
hon. member said, " Give us acts, not words," and yet he
objected to an act so decided as the creation of a commis-
sion. The hon. member for Wexford stated that the re-
solution received his support, because it would be binding
on any subsequent House of Commons ; but that was
an inadequate and fallacious ground of support, for not-
withstanding the resolution should be now agreed
Ito, any future house would approach the question
quite as freely and in as unfettered a manner as the pre-
sent. (Hear, hear.) Hon. members ought to produce
some other plan which they could commend, for all objec-
tions to his noble friend's commission applied as strongly to
the resolution of the hon. member for St. Alban's, the ob-
ject of which was also a commission. (Hear, hear.) He
desired not to see any triumph of one party over another; it
was to afford reasonable satisfaction to Ireland, with a view
to the continuance of that union which he hoped would
long cement the interests of the two countries, that he sup-
ported his noble friend's motion. The hon. member for
Wexford had asked what circumstances had occurred since
Tuesday last to induce the house to adopt 'the proposition
now made to it by his Majesty's Government. Events had
occurred since then fully sufficient in themselves to justify
the adoption of such a line of conduct, and if he could only
advert to the single circumstance of e able and eloquent
speech which had been that night delivered by his right
hon. friend the late Secretary to the Colonies, he
would* take his stand upon it, and he would say
that that speech alone entitled them to ask the
house under different circumstances than existed, on
Tuesday last, to adopt a different line of conduct. He
thought that every impartial man, that everyman of com-
mon sense, would see that the proposed appointment of the
commission rested upon intelligible grounds, and that the
government was fully justified in asking for the vote it did,
under circumstances completely different from those that
existed on Tuesday last. The hon. member for Wexford
had further said that divisions existed in the Cabinet on
this important subject ; and he had surmised therefrom
that this proposition was the fruit of such divisions. He
(Mr. Grant) could assure that hon. member that he was
completely mistaken in such a supposition, He would ven-
ture to assure him, and to assure the house, that there were
no divisions in the Cabinet on this subject. ( Hear, hear.)
He could assure the house, and he trusted that the charac-
ter of the members of the Cabinet, as men of honour and of
honesty, at all events as men of common sense and common
understanding, would be felt as fully bearing him out in the
assertion, that they would not have considered themselves
justified in proposing the issuing of this commission if
amongst the members of the Cabinet there existed the
slightest dissent upon such a vital measure, ( Hear, hear. )
The hon. and learned member for Dublin had assailed
the proposition of his Majesty's government, as being
one cal:ulated to get rid of the real merits of the
question, and to divert the house from pronnuniog
ouuiit
opinion upon it. He (Mr. Grant) looked upondit n
a different light; he looked upon it as that whvi
erns-neatgl to
to be--a plain and direct proposition by the go

r!Orff •c,'")'T ?,-rsr". fr.

the country of,the line of policy which it was determine
to pursue. (Hear.) He would assert, in spite of ,the hon•
and learned gentleman, that no man in that house; thet,ne •
man of common sense in the country, could mistake fqr
moment what that line of policy was. He could not but
think, notwithstanding all that had been said by the hon.
and learned gentleman, that the warm feelings and the
good sense of the Roman Catholics of Ireland would induce
•hem to arrive at a different conclusion from the hon. and,
learned gentleman with regard to the issuing of this cora-
mission, and that in spite of his denunciations they would
give due credit to the government for its intentions in'
bringing forward such a proposition. In that proposition
he (Mr. Grant) cordially and entirely concurred.. tie
firmly believed that it would constitute the most inaportaut,
step that the house had ever taken for the effectual conci-,
liation of Ireland, and for cementing the union•between..
the two countries. Without fuhe d
sietaining the house,
he begged to re se
p
at that such apronotion had his cordial
and entire concurrence. •

foundlwa toeSudilrdt to i
em. createvPs eeElrflE.
intelligibleiLn said
tthe
precludedetphutbt
public
from
tacoot
mm
the
hnp period
importance, when events were passing around them caien
interest, if not apprehension, he deeply regretted that he' ,
could be satisfactory to his own mind, or which he feared. i
as made by the hon. member for St. Alban's, distinctly '..,.
involved two principles ; the first was, that the temporal
possessions of the church of Ireland exceeded the selritua .
wants of the Protestant inhabitants of that part of the env •
..
takingr si do
country.m
anyo
much
c h sucheaoTn
anxiety
esicourse
immensetywhaz
iic:
~,
pire ; and, secondly, that the house had a right to apin'
priate any surplus that might exist to purposes not c°n"
nected with the support or maintenance of the Pre:
testant church. He (Sir R. Peel) was anxious te,
tight the battle on those grounds. (Loud cheering.,
He was ready to declare his opinion on the subject'
He was prepared to enter upon the discussion at that
moment. (Hear, hear.) He wished to state nothing. int:
tone' of triumph, nor to claim for himself any suPerl°rlb'e
over his fellow-subjects in consequence of the opinion, --..
entertained as a protestant ; but in differing from opillieain'
of others, which he believed to be fallacious, he vilsh`;
not in a tone of triumph, but with feelings of the deePet",
anxiety for the welfare of the church in Ireland, to eta ''f
why he entertained the opinion that they were bound he
right to the maintenance of the establishment, why.
us
' maintenance of the church was essential to the religw,e
motion,,,
character of the country, and why the best interests of t"..
people called for the maintenance of the establishuler
He was then prepared to discuss the question ; he v'he
prepared and ready to state his opinion on the subject !
in,
was ready that night to state distinctly his unqualifienwer
tention to uphold and maintain to the utmost of his P° • ti
would
heoeudlidd establishedcnoont smeaneit toc
tho
anyu
assertr church. h
c.
ha
nt(hgCaeht eienr
unders.t
h) e 1
ißaocyteui
rta
actual
ui this t das
tet a
nee 1 a rciast:
it.iaP
ee
that when a committee was moved for two years. a.-gn° or
said that he was ready to consider any proposal°.
sot;
established church. It must be in the recollection of many
measure which had for its object the removal of anyinb,uben
or defects that might exist in the establishment. tie ' •
stated that the time was come when they must review the
state of the establishment in Ireland. Bv this he for one
moment never intended to assent to the proposition that
any portion of the pecuniary means of the establishment
might be devoted to other objects, but whether there
might not be a different distribution of the funds of the
establishment, with the view to the better supply'
big the spiritual wants of the people. (Hear, hear.)
He, as a member of the church, was ready to een-
gider any measure calculated to promote a more be-
neficial or advantageous distribution of the funds °
the church ; but he never would consent to the alielli;:,;7
tion of any portion of them to purposes not connected 14:he i
the church. (Hear.) He regretted that instead °f the 1
previous question having been proposed the motion of
hon. member for St. Alban's had not been met with 11-71
tinct negative. As it was, he had difficulties timewia In 1
...... he
way as to the vote he should give, for whatever co,rhe.
might take it would not be satisfactory to his g rainti the.,:,
noble lord (Althorp) had commenced with incll '
hon,,--
previous question, and had thus precluded agont, on
member from making any proposition as an amen .1 be on
the original motion. The question must necessarl amply
the motion of the noble lord, and he (Sir IL Nell_ hos.
regretted that it should be put on the motion of.s;ubted
member for St. Alban's. (Hear, hear.-) He sin the
whether there was not a large number of -member they
ninety-
were called upon to give;, but he was surethat
Sao
acquainte.l with the proceedi t. aoors not
house who did not understand the nature of the vote i... •
n.ne out of every hundred persons out
of
the noble
vote
woild not be aware of the nature of the e
was
one
1 ,rd had called upon the house to adopt. Ther. _
inight
of three courses for him to adopt. Either nu
trusted
have absented himself altogether, and
ha%eer occur,
that an opportunity, which indeed might neY,_ might
would arise to discuss the abstract proposition. ta'
e left the
have abstained from stating his opinion, and hay
but with
house, so as not to vote on the previous question,
....1.,
the intention of voting on the main question. If, how en„
the division had taken place on the main question irtirne'lj
ately after the division on the previous question, he con,.
not have done so. He felt, however, bound to say that n'''
felt that absenting himself from the division was one of the: '
most unsatisfactory courses that he could have adopted'
(Hear, hear.) He had occasionally done so, but he bad
gs of Parliament
always felt that it betrayed a weakness of decision tin'
worthy of a public man. ( Hear, hear.) He was satisfied
that to endeavour to escape from a difficulty by avoiding '
the performance of a duty was a most objectionable course
to adopt. (Hear, hear.) If ever there was a difficultYnase
to the vote he should adopt, it was on that e.s.
ton that the
had not brought these difficulties on hiineelf"uN °ti°°nn.e con"
nected with him had thrown out any suges
Mile
tion, and also
that he could vote against the previous ques
previous question should be proposed.
ntleinan
give a negative to the proposition of the hon.
geedifficulties
he might be told that by adopting this course th
like the
he had stated would be obviated ; but at a time
acted
present, he was satisfied that if he and those wbo
on
with him as friends of the church should ally themselves
the first division with its declared and determined °PP!.
nents, it would not prove satisfactory to the *aim
it mfg
might be told
, questne" ir
with his Majesty's government for the previous
w.._,.
it might be assumed that he did so on the ground on
.0 /21:7,
some of his Majesty's ministers claimed the decision . t L",
house, namely, by pursuing the course marked out
,t,,ti_tur.
( Hear, hear.) If he adopted the other course, and ;of. la_ .
plied a confidence in his Majesty's governrnen v
,(0770 ~
hear.) It might also be as§umed that he apprer en
state of the Church of Ireland. He at once a e"
ed it to
. ri he begg
if he gave a vote for the previous questio
asons that had
appointment of a commission to make an inquivoY„".
be understood that he did not do so for the re
te side, for he
been stated by hon. members on the opposi
even the
not any
at once distinctly stated that he had n t. (Loud
slightest confidence in his Majesty's necessarygovernmen,
is
cheers.) In justice to himself it was also .t was the
answer to the declaration of the noble lord that it
se
0 the,
intention of his Majesty's government totoPthe-statB'°tl
appointment of a commission to inquire in
__vent i §
to "
the church in Ireland (Hear, hear), and P..,ared to
being. supposed that by giving his vote heo...a,PEdistmetl)
sanction the appointment of such a commis' the appoint''
to declare that he altogether disapproved olho'
ri, coullnissr.
ment of such a commission. (Hear.)
distinct P re
to be appointed was for a purpose involving
the
..en, oatu .
position, but merely to institute inquiries,
_',, the roc;
of which must be most defective. It involve"
arded•
serious difficulties in which ever way it was reg
,er , bath
.
affected the payers of tithes as well as the recei
0;
any 0i
Protestant and Catholic, and it did not get rlet ble I°lll°l
the evils which now existed. The result of the no :ssien o,
proposition was to be the appointment of a cornn"nvoeilt
inquiry, and he (Sir R. Peel) could not for a__eitision
conceive how the noble lord could arrive at the can , hire
elte'e re
that the adoption of such a course was likely to r
~. oi
from any of the difficulties under which he labours nitotltlhaet,
regret that we were prevented hearing some onse..!ht ha.
in this as well as other parts of the speech of the.,r_l6 alled,
baronet in consequence of the confusion in tt;vtlie right
arising from its crowded state.) We uuderstnlt
0 hc a.,nr
hon. Bart. to state that the commission pii-,749:
missions. He (Sir R. Peel) did notase thatdiffere foetingfr
he
thing to justify its being placed ou
ar ) The noble lord said thatl
other commissions.
(Ile- * - ind that there was a surp usi
pointed by the noble lord would differ from
thlleorteh,,eraseacii:
thought that, if it should be 1
f el' people of Ireland. Let.th.
and religious instruction ob
meant by that ohservatioo
noble lord explain whathad come when it was necessary to
(Hear, hear.) The timet e subject. (Hear, hear,) Di_d the
Parliament rhould then direc
have an explanation n
°religious instruction—and he (Su. to
noble lord mean )
:13;estion distinctly and unequivocally
the
Peel) asked the Alie, right out of the possessions °f
~...
claim to himself .
Ireland to makegrants for the cl:'?
Church in . chtiren
Protestant
the tenets of the Roman Catholic ion he
gemination 0fr0..)
If by moral and religious instrue (fin
(Loud cheeroit -°at it be devoted to the niotTael
-tru
meant moral and religious in' e
(Lord .Alth
P t to such
R. peel) did not know that he should obJecroy the ea'
proposition, as in point of fact it would be
. lus,eith the esta-
based on the doctrines of the Church of Encriand' h -, 3
tension of religious instruction in connection
, did not knoll
blishment. (Hear.) He repeated that .fl-g this object jis
that he je to to ion
the
a blessipgeoff re
church ; but if the nobl4 lord ink`O ii,.4on in `r fundsi
view. His anxious wish was to cite" ~,, chictrines . the
..
ligious instruction in conformityliCalo elaTe tahned,riLl
of establishing the Roman Catholic ret s..
of the t peel)
to provide for its maintenanceout
Oil Rober
to,
Protestant Established Church,
her
could be iildace° ..A
would at once state that. he tie
0 (Lvoeud and long-eon
assent to such a nrriotridnealled upon the house to evil
cheering.) The nob
y sleiould be made w th reference tno,),
sent that an inquir" wish in Ireland (Hear, Ilhere
church in • ag ur..y, they should discover -that oil
and if, after the !ti
that .they should cet4ider Whether ore
was an ear_ 1;, a, different appropriation from What' obis i‘
ought not
present.HO was far 'from knowin what the, 11, -
Was at h different . g (Sit ,
meant y a appropriation, and he ooe,
lord
peel) presumed that was left for after consider:oar
But alter the inquiry had bt en completA they ~.t, 54,„
have to:. proceed to inquire what was the trie°,..;oo,';'4
of the . .
vantageous .course. The appointment of the :or Ow
sion would not assist them tit tlia,t Tesfeetz
i
, .
-'ftoi., /: - •1