The Sun.
London, England, 1802-11-24 00:00:00

ession, respeding the Committee of Privileges,
the Sub-Committees, &c. were then regularly made.
The Loan CHANCELLOR. took the opportunity
to suggest some considerations relative to the Sit.
Ling of the Irish Spiritu,4l, ih certain cases, as pre-
scribed by the Aft of Union ; and also respeCting
the mode of summoning the Irish Temporal Peers,
which he thought should be speedily attended to by
the Committee-of Priv iiegeS.-
Committee.of Privileges was fixed for Thurs.
day next, and at Half-past Eight o'Clock the House
adjourned till to-morrow.

H'l USE OF COMMONS,

TUESDAY, NOV. 23.

THE SPEAKER having taken 'the Chair about one
o'clock, several ivlembers were sworn in. At half
past two o'clock, Sir FRANCIS MoLYNEux, Gen-
tleman Usher of the Black Rod, appeared at the
Bar, and summoned the House to attend His Ma-
jesty in the House of Peers. Accordingly the
SPEAKER, accompanied by a great number of Mem-
bers, went up to the House of Peers : on their re-
turn, the SPEAKER said, that the Clerk of the House
had, according to order, prepared a Bill for the more
efFeJually preventing Clandestine Outlawries ;
which was then read a first tinie
• Mr. WALLACE said, it was unnecessary for
him to preface the M)tion he was about to make,
with any observations, it was a Motion for the
appointment of the four Grand Committees, and for
voting the Standing Orders.
The Grand Committees of Religion, Grievances,
Courts of justice, and Commerce were then appoint-
ed, and the usual Sranding Orders were voted.
Several ocher Meinbers, among whom was Mr.
Fox, were then sworn in. At four o'clock the
SPEAKER. stated, that the House had attended His
Majesty in the House of Peers, where His Majesty
had been pleased to make a most Gracious Speech
froin the Throne, of which, to prevent mistakes, he
bad obtained a Copy.
The SPEAKER then read the Speech (for which see
the Proceedings in the House of Peers), when
Mr. TRENCH rose to move an Address of
Thanks to His Majesty ; lre said, that in pret.
facing the proposition which he had to submit to
the consideration of the House, he should trespass as
shortly as possible upon their patience.—Upon the
assemblage of a new Parliament, the first which had
met since the'signature of the Treaty of Peace, it
seemed natur;;l Loi observe, in the first place, how
oar situation had been affeeled by that event, and
what had been the result of our change from a state
of War to that of Peace. In viewing our internal
situation, he: should advert first to those sources of
prosperity which were more immediately within our
own reach ; and in this view of our situation, there
appared to be the greatest cause for exultation.
Whether they turned their eyes to the attachment
displayed by all racks of the People to the Consti-
tution of this Country, or to the alive and steady
loyalty displayed in Ireland, in the most trying
situations, or to the returning reason of those In-
habitants of that Country who had suffered them-
selves to be deluded—Whether they looked to the
increasing Revenue of the Empire, or to the im-
proved state of its Agriculture, Manufaftures and
Commerce, in every point of view there was the
greatest reason for congratulation and triumph. In
looking at the state of our Commerce, we should
nowhere find the verification of those melancholy,
those sinister predidions which were made by some
Gentlemen, that our Commerce, though great dur-
ing the War, IA ould decline at the Peace: Instead
of being injured, our resources remained, not only
unimpaired, but improved, after exertions almost
greater than imagination could conceive. Under
these circumstances, every one must undoubtedly
wish for the contienanee of Peace ; but yet we had

no reason to apprehend the event of a War, if War
was necessary, for the security of the Country.
Having dwelt with sati4Ction upon this view of
oar situation, was not his intention to pass over
in silence our situation with regard to Foreign States.
It would be unnecessary for him to enter into any
argument to she w the necessity of our keeping
an eye upon the measures adopted on the Continent,
.because it was a proposition recognized by the last
Parliament in its Address to the Throne on the con-
elusion of the Peace. That events which had occur-
red on the Continent had demonstrated a great dis-
position to encroachment on the part of France, and
naturally excited some degree of jealousy, could not
be denied. But in what manner and at what point
we ought to interfere, or whether we ought to in-
terfere without concert with other Powers, were
questions upon which it was impossible for them
to decide without a greater knowledge than
they ,possessed. With regard to Ireland, much
bad been done for that Country since the Union,
and much still remained to be done to promote
the happiness and the wealth of. that Country,
and consequently the happiness and wealth of
the Empire, at large. From the uniform atten-
tion which had been displayed by Parliament, and
by His Majesty's Ministers, to the affairs of Ire-
land, whenever they came under consideration,
there could be no reason to doubt but that the re-

.4.,•••• ~.,..
commendation from the Throne would be fully at-
tended to. He would not trespass any longer on the

attention of the House ; he sincerely hoped that
Peace might he maintained; but if the Honour, the
Independence, and the Security of this Country re-
quired measures of an opposite nature, he was sure
Ministers would not want the hearty co-operation
of :he whole Empire. He concluded with moving
an humble Address to His Majesty, which was, as
u-,ual, nearly a repetition of the, Speech.
Mr. CURZON said, he rose to second the Ad-

....
dress,„ but after the very able manner in which it
hail been proposed by the Hon. Gentleman who
preceded him, it would only be necessary for him
to say a few words.—He congratulated the House
upon the flourishing state of the Trade, the Manu-
factures, and the Commerce of this Country.—He
perfedly concurred with the Honourable Mover of
the Address,. upon the .importance of preserving
Peace, if Peace could be preserved consistently
with our Honour and Dignity. There were many
other topics upon which he might enlarge, but at
present he did not feel it necessary to trouble the
House any longer, except merely to second the
Address.

The SPEAKER having read the Address, . '
Mr. C ART WRIG HT said, it was not. his in„_
tention to interrupt the harmony of their proceed-
ings by opposing the Address.—Undoubtedly, the
best way to preserve the blessings of Peace,•was to •
chew, that if necessary, we were prepared-for a
state of War. When he considered the condua of
the person at the head of the Government of
France since the conclusion of the Treaty of Peace ;
when he considered how little pacific he had shewn
himself since that period, and how much pains he
had taken to irritate ..the feelings of the People of
this Country, it certainly could not be denied that
we ought to put ourselves in a state of readiness.
He could not help expressing it: to be his opinion
that Ministers had been much to blame in disarming
so quickly as they had done ; in doing so they had
deviated from the condua of all former Ministers
upon former occasions. They had always taken
care at least to provide a Force equal to that of
France ; instead of which, if we were now to go
to War, he doubted if we had a Fleet equal to that
of the Enemy ; because, since the Peace they had
constantly been increasing their Force, and we had
been decreasing ours. He was however, of opinion,
that after the concessions we made to obtain Peace,
after the abandonment of our Conquests, after we
had given up Holland and Flanders, he did not think
we should he justified in interfering in the affairs of
Switzerland. He could not think, however we might ,
detest the condua of France to Switzerland, that
we should he justified in going to War upon that
ground. But the -stronger his feelings were with
regard to the conduct of France, the more he la- '
mented the loss of those great talents which had so
long watched over the interests of this Country,
and had so successfully counteracted the efforts of
Ffance against her ; he could not help lamenting
the_loss of the abilities of the Right Hon. Gentle.
man he alluded to, because he was convinced that
there never was a time at which, this Country
stood more in need of those talents than it did at
present.
Sir
.70117 V WROTTESLEY said, he could not
presume that any thing he could say would have ,
any effea upon the House, but he rose merely to
unburthen his" mind, and shortly to declare his opi-
nion upon the situation of this Conntry. Nobody
could view the Right Hon. Gentleman who now
presided in His Majesty's Councils, with more re-
speet and satisfaaion than he did ; when that Right
Hon. Gentleman filled the Chair of that House, no-
body could have a higher opinion of his abilities. But
whatever sentiments of respeCt he might entertain
for that P.ight Hon. Gentleman, he felt himself call-
ed upon to take a short review of the coodua of Mi-
nisters, and in so doing, he should follow the ex-
ample of the Hon. Gentleman who moved the Ad-
dress. He should not make any comments upon t ht.;
Treaty of Peace, but should confine himself to events
that had taken place since the Signature of that
Treaty. The Hon. Mover Of the Address had
dwelt upon the improved state of our Manufactures ;
he was sincerely glad to hear that statement from
the Hon. Gentleman, because we should, perhaps,
soon see the moment when it would be necessary to
call all the resources of the Country into action. He
was sorry, however, to observe, that the state of
the ManufaCtures, in the part of the Country 'to
which he belonged, was not such as' to justify the
Hon. Gentleman's assertion. There were, however,
many Gentlemen in the House, much better quali-
fied to give an opinion upon the subject than he was,
and he hoped they would give the House some in-
formation upon this important point, before they se-
parated. There were many important topics upon
which the Hon. Mover of the Address had very
wisely touched but lightly, and his doing so, must
have been a matter of satisfaction to those who sat
under:him. Very soon after the signing of the Treaty
of Peace, Ministers found that the spirit of the Go-
vernment of France was not such as they could
approve, and since that period the same spirit had
ontibrtnly been manifested. France had dictated to
the Empire on the subjea of Indemnities, she had
lately annexed the Dutchy of Parma to her over-
grown Dominion. We had seen the glorious
achievements of the Patriots of Switzerland to
establish the Liberty of their Country, frustrated
by France, and that, Without any known Remon-
strance on the part of this Country. The, Public
rapers, to which he was obliged to refer for want
of a better authority, did indeed state that some_
thing like a Remonstrance had-been presented,: if
that was the case, he hoped that Ministers would
bring it forward for the consideration of the House ;
and he hoped it would be such a one as Ministers
would be proud to lay upon the Table of that
House. He did- not know what the conduct of
Ministers had been upon this subject, but he knew
that Switzerland had been over-run by a large
French Army ; he knew that the best people of
that Country' were in the power of the Constil of
France, sharing perhaps the same fate as the un-
fortunate Toussaint, lying in a dungeon. In this
gloothy prospect, he taw but one dawn of hope,
and that was, the calling forth again the greatett
abilities in thiS Country : they had saved this
Country in times of the greatest difficulty and dan-
ger, and. might still save it. He was not in the
confidence of the Right Hon. Gentleman to whom
he alluded, but he was sure that his disinterested-
ness would not desert him when his services were
called for by his Country.
Mr. PYTCHES then rose, but we were only
enabled to hear a few of his observations. He said
he should consider the Speech which had been read,
as the Speech of the Minister ; and considering it
in that point of view, he had no difficulty in pro-
nouncing it a complete Salmagundi. He was as-
-1 tonished that any Gentle Man could wish to involve
us again in the horrors of War, the more especially
as he was convinced that the French Government
had no intention of violating the Peace with this
Country. If the Government of France had violat-
ed'the Treaty in any particular, we ought to recall
it to their recollection by a polite and gentle inti-
mation. 'He considered the Address as bad as the
Speech, and gave his opinion decidedly against Ad-
dresses in general.
Mr. FOX said, that as he concurred in the

general tenor of the Address which had been
moved, he should not have risen, but for some ex-
pressions which fell from some Gentlemen on the
other side of the House, which rendered it ce.zes—

nary for_ him to say a few words, to explain the -
reasons of the Vote which he.should give in 'favour
of the Address. There was an expression in the
Speech,.. which was of course echoed in the Address,
relatiVe to the advantages which had been derived
from the Union with Ireland. If he were inclined
to cavil, he might objed to that -expression, be-
cause by concurring in the Address, -he might be
supposed, by implication, to have changed his opi-
nion respecting the event to which that expression
alluded ; hut, however, he should not object to the
Address on that account ; he merely desired, that
he should not 'be implicated. by that expression.
Whatever his opinion might have been with regard
to the Union With Ireland, that event having taken
place, he Wished. it might be attended with every
possible success; ' and therefore did not wish to re-
consider the question. To the other, parts of the
Address there was no objeac.lion ; but the manner
in which Gentlemen on the other side had spoken
about it was, in his opinion, very objectionable.
An Hon. Gentleman had commented upon the
Address, as if it had pledged the House to support
large Military Establishments. The Speech from
the Throne contained no such expression, nor was
there any such language in the Address which had
been proposed. The language of the Speech was,
very properly, general ; it merely stated, that such •
measures should be adopted as might appear the best.
calculated for the security of the Kingdom. This
was leaving the question open for discussion, and ,
not deciding whether the Establishments ought, to
be large or small. Those who thought with him,
that a small Military Establishment was the best
calculated to preserve the Blessings of Peace, or even
for commencing a War, would certainly propose a
small Establishment ; and those who entertained an
opposite opinion would propose different measures ;
but neither party were hound by this Address, the
words of which were general. With regard to the
objeilions which had been made to the Address, he
would not now en ter aully into a consideration of them.. -.
&me Gentlemen objected to the Address, because it ••
was too pacific, and had expressed their ObjeSltons
rather in a singular manner, especially one Gentle-
man, who had stated, that the Government of
France had done every thing in its power to irritate
the feelings of the People of this Country. When
the Hoo. Gentleman made such an assertion, he ex-
petted that he would have stated the, particulars of '
that consiud ; but he has not ; and in the very next
sentence, he found fault with the King's Speech and
the Address, for being too warlike, because having
given up so much to obtain a Peace, we ought not
to go to War. upon the interests of
.the Continent.
The objedions of another Gentleman, were upon a
different ground, he disapproved of the Speech for
nut being sufficiently warlike. That Honourable
Gentleman had stated, that the condition of our
IVlanufaetures was not so flourishing as had been re-
presented.:--how- the fad really was, he did not
know ; hut he knew, that such a fad, stated
with such a view as the Honourable Gentleman
had stated it, was extremely alarming. It appear-
ed to him impossible to entertain- an opinion more
erroneous and more wicked, than to suppose that
if our Manufactures were not in a flourishing con-
dition in time of -Peace,. that they would be im-
proved by going to War. He really hoped that
no Gentleman could entertain such a notion for a
moment. With regard to the general objeaions to
the Address, they would be considered by different •
people in different ways. Those who thought that
the signing the Treaty of Peace was injurious to
this Country, and criminal in the Ministers who
agreed to it, might probably continue of the same
opinion, and would- think that we ought to take the
first opportunity of breaking that Treaty Those
Gentlemen would certainly be consistent,. though he
entertained a very different opinion upon the subject.
He was certainly not speaking in the same Parliament
nor to the same Gentlemen, but lie was sure it
could not be forgotten, that the Treaty of Peace
was received with almost universal approbation by
the Parliament and by the Country ; and he could
not help asking one question, vl4. If the Peace was
entitled to approbation, upon what principle of po-
licy, good faith, or expediency, it was now advise.
able for us to go to War ? He, for one, could not
conceive any one principle that would justify us in
such a measure. He was not disposed, upon the
present occasion, to enter into the general question,
but it must strike every body, that the obvious
means of carrying on the War, would be, in the first
place, to retake those places which we had given
up. Now, such conduct would, in his opinion,
place both the makers and the breakers of the Peace
in a situation the most ridiculous that could be con-
ceived. He was ready to admit, that however
desirable the Peace might have been at the time it
was concluded, it might be followed by such
condod on the part of France, as might render
' a War, .on our part, necessary. He had fre-
. quently advanced an opinion in that House,
for which he had been ridiculed, but which
he was still disposed to maintain, viz. that the Ho-.
nour of the Country was, the best, if not the only
justifiable cause of War; therefore, if a case was
clearly made out, that the Honour of the Country
• had been insulted ; if it was proved, that we must
either submit to disgrace, or go to War, he should
feel no hesitation in his decision ; but that case must
be very clearly made out before he could consent to
involve the Country in a War. Without entering
at present, into the consideration of how far po-
licy, or expediency, would justify us in enter-
ing into a War, he had no difficOlty in saying,
that as far as he could coiled from public informa-
tion, there never was a time in which this Country
would profit more by the continuance of Peace, or in
which they• go to War under less favour.
able circumstances than at present. Without en_
tering into a discussion of the calamities of War,
he Wished the House to look for a moment at the
other side of the question. .If France was always to
be considered as our rival, even in time of Peace
(a proposition to which he could never assent), he
• wished to ask if this Country ever had more fair-
play than in the present Peace ?—Gentlemen had
been censured for holding language, in that House,
• of a desponding nature, anti calculated to excite
alarm ; but what would be thought of him and Inc,
Friends if they had said, that: in the case of a WA:
we should not he able to cope with .the Navy of
France ? He believed that the most gloomy mind,

in the moments of its greatest despondency, tlevc•°
entertained such an apprehension. Much had he
said about the conduit of the French Governmeoi4
their objet was to revive their Commerce and YLI:
nufanures, and, if possible; to rival us io tight"
points ; but he begged to ask, in what race could we,
possibly be engaged with France, in which we shoul.i
have such a certainty of success ? We had such e`''
dent superiority in every particular, that we twist ir?s
evitably gain the race ; nay, even if they had 1117
start of us we must beat them. It was therefohe
.
better for us to go into a rivalship with France, 11!
which we were not only sure of vidory, but
which every step she made would facilitate our ot°-
gress. He did.not mean to say thht this fair VW:
sped might not be marred, he only contended th.!
the case must be strongly made out indeed, which.
would Mike' him wish to contend in War with
France rather than in Commerce and Manulaguresi"
It was impossible we could have forgotten the exr:
Hance of the last ten years, or that we could how,
look with very sanguine hopes of a Continent'
War, carried on by subsidizing German Palaces'
The hopes at the beginning of a War we!!
Often disappointed b its terminati
eveatu tristia. y Him. Gentleman had oil
that the condun of France since the Treaty' °
Peace had not Wen such 'as we could wish, °c
such as we had been taught to exist-set. He did ri„e re-
member. that any Gentleman, on either side of oe
House, had asserted that, on the coiliclusion of Pea&i
a complete friendship would be saqssZ,blished betwee7
the two Countries, and that the Government 4'.
France would, in all its measures, . consult the 1.11:
terests of Great Britain.—Language of a very di'
ferent nature was held ; it %vas said, by one of 1415
Majesty Ministers,- that Europe was left in a veil
unsatisfadory shoe ;, if that was the case,
Peace was made; he asked whether the niece state'
inent, that Europe still remained in an ors
tory state, would jdstify us now in the brealehl
it ?—That Europe was in an unsatistory stater
or, in other words, that the Power of France ,v 3
greater titan he or any Englishman ceuld wish it, 0
did, not deny ; on the contrary, it was'one of the
principal grounds of charge against the late Niioisr
that all their Measures had tended to throw Oft
unexampled degree of power into the floods •ni`
France.—lt undoubtedly was not eossistoh
• the Honour of this Country to sohnot
insults from France, or from kY'•
but on the other hand, it was eqosee
with our Honour to give an insult. 1, .
sistent with the Honour of this Country to
,a
France to violate the terms of the Peace, but oat
tt
other hand, it was not consistent with our 1-10,'°'n
not to fulfil the terms of the Treaty into Mile'. 't
had entered. These were all questions which tri''sn
depend upon a statement of fads, but not lia."1?;
those facts before him, it was impossible for 16'1 (.4
reason upon them. Even if he were to admit,j
the sake of argument, that we shOuld be jOstiner
in point of policy and expediency, in going to liVas;
he was really of opinion that we should be at a I°i
to find, in the conduit of France, arty pretext ido
such a measure. He merely argued at present fee 71
such fans as were before the Public ; there rtlig.;l
be private ones which would Change the taatterenv
the question. Much had been said about the '
position of the People of this Country is'r ler
newal of the War,. but he believed that if ,ern
there was a cry for War purely fiditiv-nnt,l
and artificial, it was the cry made by a coaliti°lll,o'
a certain number of Newspapers. From whatna.
could coiled of the opinion of the People, he
in ld'
lieved them to be as warm and. as steady
wish-for Peace, as they ever were. I,Vars hat ;miff
entered. into upon various causes, often togr3t,cs
the ambition of Princes, and sometimes in catlsi
quence of the intrigues of Faftions ; but 11 pas
Country' were now so unfortunate as to enter
#3l,
a War, merely because a certain number of theoble
tors of Newspapers should think it an ;1(165'14,
treasure, in order to increase the sale of theirtg
sc
pets, he should nor -hesitate to pronounce it the .00i.
base, and ignoble War-that ever was entered Isola
it was said, that there was another class of triennere
wished for the renewal of the War, and thosell
men of great commercial wealth in tlieCaPir"i 4,see
in other parts of the Kingdom ; but to 0" the
tion he would not for a moment give credirilteio
class of men alluded to, were much -too ehlibnsisi
cd and too respectable to wish for the ,raire
miry of their Country, even if it should linotlJ
a source of wealth to themselves. He ‘in,e
rather, if he were "put to the alternative, oit sat-
Country should bleed to gratify the vanity nosh
bition of an Alexander, and so be sacrificed zyntill
ously, than that it should enter into a War
the Coffers of interested Merchants. We ha al
was true point ,
terminated the 'War, in some a 10-
I.lla •
view, unfortunately ; but he hoped; we she°. 1, ore
again rashly plunge into a situation from whiCerior'
had escaped, in a state of great internal or°q s Ibl •stis
u
He would at present say no more upon the jet ;1r
except unmake an observation, which tort -iierr,
pear a very common one, viz. That War waste lea
serious thing, and that People ought not t° l'
away with the notion, that it could be fiaiscet'isecl.
one Campaign : Upon that subjed we had fe,tionao
Lessons sufficiently severe—He had no CO t. t that
with His Majesty's Ministers=he hoped,
kJe tat
. Peace they made, they approved of. alaimade .
they would not say, "It is true svq „par&
.Peace, but we now repent of
our opinion, and therefore, we will e°g3gof stic/v
War." He did not accuse the IVlioisters theta'`
.
sentiments ; from his Soul he acquit meta
could be sr.
of any such feeling--If Ministers co
a J-
ared by any such feeling, they would stall ,so
asnuatr) -
invidious and odious light to this h' ace,
fear 661 n tr 3
e
rn
to Europe. We had nothing to Co,
it—We have $
-one way, or, indeed, in any way from "ihiic.'this;vaed ceciatt
secure ourselves by means of'S.Vae- ru f
argued, as a justification. tor this
del. ,as-
War, that France interfered in the 1:0 .
neil;
Germany; but he begged to aso.,
tvhethes
not known when the Definitiec TrestY s% be 10°
old . -to
that France would interfere, and it wo roes
me Pa
strolls, after we had- refused to beco ue
. CO ,„0 te
the Treaty of Luneville, af:ertear, {jp,
COUntrY
..1"-tie5
;In investigation of the whole of its tern: ale oils) rn,
hest consideration he was able to give faetheoo
lie really, thought it was not unfortunaco, had g
telCSti of Europe, that France and itus•''',,