The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-12 00:00:00

LONDON, WEDNESDAY . EVENING, FEBRUARY 12, 1851.

interferes with royal authority without the consent
of the Sovereign of that country.— (Hear. hear.)
With respect to the arguments which have been used
against the introduction of any measure on this subject
after what has been said by my Honourable and
Learned Friend the Attorney-General, and after the
many other able arguments we have heard in
support of the adoption of some course for re-
pelling this aegression, I will not at present enter fur-
ther upon the discussion of that question. But, Sir, we have
heard arguments from the Hon. Member for Mayo, which
arguments have been enforced by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Athlone, for the purpose of showing that we are
not justified in noticing this aggression. These argu-
ments resolve themselves into two points. The first
is a general excuse for the conduct of the Court of Rome,
on the ground that we had by our conduct misled the Court,
and that it was justified in believing that the Government
of this country was not opposed to the establishment of
this hierarchy ; and the other argement resolves itself
into an attack upon the consistency of the different
members of her Majesty's Government, and some
particularly upon that of myself. Now, Sir, with regard to
;he first point, I will not recall to the recollection of the
House what passed in 1843 and in 1845, but I will merely
remind the House that anything that might
have passed at Rome during Lord Minto's mis-
sion to that city would not have induced
the Court of Rome to imagine that her Majesty's Ministers
would consent to the appoitment of any hierarchy in this
country, for after Lord Minto had left Rome, I myself dis-
tinctly declared in this House, that the Government would
not give its consent to any measure for the establishment of
Roman Catholic episcopal sees in this country. So that no
misapprehension whatever could have existed,en that point
is clear, for that declaration of mine was welt known to all
the Roman Catholics in tois country immediately that it was
made, and was no doubt at once communicated to Rome, so
that it is impossible any misapprehension could have existed
at the Court of Rome on this subject. It is evident, there-
fore, that this measure was adopted by the Court of Rome
in opposition to the Government of this country ; it was dono
in opposition to the Crown of this country, and
the effect was to erect sees and to give to
the holders of those sees power to govern
not in Asia or Africa but in Westminster and Middlesex,
and when such was the case the people of Westminster and
Middlesex naturally thought that none ought to have power
to govern them but those who were authorised
to do so by the law of the land. The Hon.
Member for Mayo says, that not only has the
Pope erected these new archbishoprics and bishoprics,
but that he has also put an. end to the Archbishopric of
Canterbury and the Bishopric of London. Now it that
assumption be correct, I am at a loss to understand
how it can be contended that there is nothing in
this to interfere with the rights and dignity of the Crown.
I come now to another point which has been urged by the
Hon. Member for Athlone, namely, that this measure is to-
tally different and quite inconsistent with my fcrmer decla-
rations.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I am not about to
say that it is not so, or that my former declaration
did not amount to this, that I thought it was purile and
cihldish to fear anything from the pretension of the Pope to
create English bish ps or archbishops—(Hear)—or that
that opinion is consistent with those opinions which
I now entertain and have just pronounced. (Hear, hear.)
But, Sir, I think I am justified in saying this, that what-
ever may have been my centidence in respect to the Roman
Catholic ecclesiastics—whatever may have been my
confidence with respect to the conduct of the
Pope—l :have found since that time that that
confidence was misplaced—(Cheers)—and I therefore
thought it better clearly and plainly to avow that I
was mistaken in the opinion which entertained for-
merly on this subject—that I had trusted too ,much to
the forbearance and respect for the Sovereign power
of this country evinced by the Roman Catholics, and there-
fore, seeing that my confidence was misplaced, I brought in
thismeasure as more according with the altered views that I
now entertain. Then the Hon. Member for Athlone says
that when I made these statements, and renewed these
opinion I was bidding for office, and I wished to conciliate
the public feelings of Ireland. Now, so far from that being
the case, after I came into office in 1846, on moving the Reli-
gious Opinions Bill, I stated then the views which I am
not prepared to avow now, I stated then that I thought
that the admission of any bulls might be allowed, that I did
not think any bulls that could be introduced would make
any difference in the rights of the Crown; but, Sir,
I must say I think I am entitled to expect
from a Gentleman who sits in this House as a
Roman Catholic, and who has taken the Rom,n Catholic
a little credit for motives with which I have been actuated
with respect to the privileges of Roman Catholics.—
(Hear, hear.) For it does so happen that, for fourten years
previous to the passing of the Emancipation Act, that
I held a seat in this House whenever I could
give a vote for the purpose, I gave my vote for the admis-
sion of Roman Catholics to a seat in this llouse. (Cheers.)
And Sir, moreover, at the time I did so I felt that I was
acting at the expense of the confidence of friends—
against the opinion of the Prince then on the
throne against the opinion I then believed of the great ma-
jority of the people of this country.—(Loud cheers.)
I did so, feeling with the man of immortal
honour—Henry Grattan—at the time when the name
of Henry Grattan of great renown—at a time
when Henry Grattan was renowned for his great eloquence

and great Public service.—(Cheera and laughter.) I pur-
sued that conduct until 1829, when Sir Robert Peel
introduced the Bill for the admission of Roman
Catholics into this House, and on the second read-
ing of that Bill Sir Robert Peel said with great
candour and great manliness, which did him the highest
honour, that the measure was due to the exertions of Mr.
Fox—to the exertions of Mr. Gratten— to the exer-
tions of Mr. Plunkett—the exertions of those who then
then sat opposite to him, by whom he said the measure was
originated, and through whom he hoped to be
in a position to carry it.—(Loud cheers.) I was
one of those who sat in opposition to him, and voted
constantly in favour of the Roman Catholics ; but at a sub-
sequent period, when Sir Robert Peel introduced an Act for
the endowment of Maynooth College, Hon. Gentlemen will
recollect that there was great popular feeling in this country,
and that there were hardly any of us who then sat in
opposition, who did not receive many letters from onr con-
stituent, saying that our seats would be in danger, and we
would never be elected again by our constituents if we
voted in favour of the mearsure. Sir, with very few excep-
tions we supported that Bill, and it gave us very great
pleasure to be the means of carrying it. (Hear.)
I will not at this time enter into other subjects, but I think
the conduct of my public life has been such that it is not be-
coming for a Roman Catholic to rise in this House to say
that what I did in 1844 and 1845 was merely done to conci-
liate popular opinion. Sir, I wish as much as possible
that Roman Catholics should have the full enjoyment of re-
ligious political, and civil liberty. I do not think I should
ever be induced to introduce a measure by which they would
be preventec having their own mode of worship according to
their own belief, or by :which they would be prevented
in consequence of that belief from obtaining the privileges
and honours of the State; but when this is done 1 will not
be frightened Sy the word of persecution, from asserting the
due authority of the Crown and the independence of
the Government.—(Loud cheers.) I do not think we
ought to submit to this, which I must again repeat
is an insult to this country.—(Hear, hear.) I think, at all
events, we should have a Parliamentary declaration which
should free us from the stigma and shame of having sub-
mitted to have our country so parcelled out, as if it
were a conquered and submissive country. —(Cheers.)
I believe we may do so without infringing in the
least degree on the religious liberty of the Roman
Catholics. (Cheers.) lam sure that if it can be shown in
any way that by this Bill religious liberty will be infringed,
I shall be ready to discuss those objections, and to re-
move any words by which the worship of the Roman
Catholics may be interfered with. It has been
justly said by a Noble Friend that if the Holy See had bsen
pleased in proposing ex officio to make bishops over the
Catholics in communion with the Church of Rome;
if he had confined his spiritual authority to the
Roman Catholics, as the Free Church of Scotland has
confined its authority to its members—if such had been the
case, I do not think we should have had reason to
complain, but I do complain when, according to the letter
of the document, and when, according to the
known laws of Rome, all and divers persons are
required to submit to a foreign dominion.—(Hear.) I do
trust that we shall be allowed to introduce this Bill, and in
the first stages of it I shall be ready to defend its provisions.
If he could not pretend that his present course was in con-
lomity with his previous declarations of 1835, he was sure
the House would allow that he had sufficieetly strong reason
for altering his convictions.
Mr. MOORE appealed to the justice of the House. He
had never entertained the slightest idea of asserting
that the Pope had the power of abolishing Protestant dio-
ceses • he left such fancies as that to the Noble Lord. What
he had said was that the Pope had the power of alter-
ing and regulating all Roman Catholic dioceses.
Mr. FAGAN rose amid loud cries of "Divide," to move
the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. LAWLESS seconded the motion amid continued up-
roar and cries of " Divide, divide ;" but it being now six
o'clock, the SPEAKEIC declared the House to be adjourned.

STATE OF TRADE.
(From the Manchester Guardian of this day.)
MANCHESTER, TUESDAY. —Our market has suffered
a further depression. Both the home consumers of
yarns and the shippers to India and to the European
continent still hold aloof from the market; and the con-
tinned abSence of demand occasions a more marked a eak-
mess in the rates than was observable last week. Prices [Lay
be considered as merely nominal, seeing that there are
not offers sufficient from buyers to test them ; but
they are certainly lower throughout than they were at
the date of our last report. In goods, also, there is a
general tendency in the same direction. The decline in
40-inch shirtings from the late highest quotations is now
practically lid. to 9d. per piece; for, though some pro-
ducers may not be prepared to yield so much, others are.
We hear of some sales having been effected through such
a concession as•is here named. • The want of confidence
in cotton is that which most presses, in a direct manner,
on our market. This want of confidence is just now in-
creased more by the evidence there is of a like feeling in
the States, than by the augmented receipts at the ports.
But another cause of our dulness is the fact that orders
are rapidly running out; and, as usual, business of any
weight is in abeyance, until the rise which ensued upon
the last active demand has subsided sufficiently to induce
renewed operations.
ROCHDALE, MONDAY.—There has been a very flat
market to-day in flannels, and the merchants have pur-
chased very sparingly, at low prices. There has been
considerable inactivity in the wool market; the dealers
have been very eager to sell, and prices may be quoted
rather easier.

MACCLESFIELD, TIIESDAY.—WO have no improve-
ment whatever to notice in the demand fur manufactured
goods; makers being more inclined to hold than do
business at present offering rates. Some houses have
commenced working short time in anticipation of, the
present general fittness continuing. The throwing
mills are working full time, although the demand for
thrown silks continues_ inactive. Prices, however, re-
main very firm; and we hear of no disposition to do
business except at full rates. No alteration iu raw silks,
quotations remaining the same as for some time past.
alluDDEnerrELD, TUESDAY.—There has been a fair
business transacted to-day in the Cloth Hall amongst the
lighter goods of a low make, for the American market.
Most if the warehouses have been flat during the wtek.
There is not much doing in the wool market, the manu-
facturers only buying tor immediate demand, although
there is not any likelihood of a reduction in price, as
the lots that will be put up at the approaching London
sales are not very large.
. • HALIFAX, SATURDAY.-The- trade in our Piece Hall
is pretty much as it has been for the last f.ew weeks.
Damasks are in good request ; and low lastings are not
made ja sufficient quantities to meet the demand. In the