The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-26 00:00:00

Noble Lord who had been capricious, for be had not
fulfilled his promises. The Noble Lord had.given the
Irish people Arms Acts and Coercion Acts; and be (Mr.
Lawless) had the authority of Mr. Berwick, a revising
barrister in the south of Ireland, for stating that the
Franchise Ac: passed for Ireland would, so far from
operating beneficially, be a disfranchising Act with re-
gard to a large portion of that country. Then in the
terrible famine with which Ireland had been -visited,
and which was met by the people with Pa.
tisanes) which did them credit and honour, the
Government had not taken those measures which
they were hound to take, and he contended that
they were responsible for every life lost by that fa-
mine. And now, to crown all, the Noble Lord propol'ed
a penal law directed against the Irish Catholic clergy,
who had behaved in the most exemplary manner duriug
the famine, for he could say, from his own experience,
that but for their exertions there would have been blood-
shed from the north to the south of Ireland. He regreted
that in the course of this debate the Hon. Mewher for
Surrey (Hr. Henry Drummond) had used language
which—although he (Mr. Lawless) was a Protestant
had excited in his mind a feeling of horror and disgust.
The Speaker had ruled that the Hon. Gentleman Wet in
in order in using such language, but he (Mr. Lawless)
could only say that in no other Assembly in the world
would any one have been allowed to use such a string of
obscenewords. A meeting had be'rn held on the subject
of that language nt Kingstown, and resolutions had been
adopted expressing surmise that no notice had hear) taken
in that House of te disgraceful language used within it.
He believed there was not a tingle Member of that House,
whether Catholic or Protestant, who did not regard that
language as most shameful, and he was sorry to see that,
ire the resolutions of the meeting to which be had referred,
the Noble Lord at the head of the Government was
coupled with the Hon. Member for West fumy.
This he supposed had arisen from some mistake; for the
Noble Lord had never used such language as thateitti:
dulged in by the Hon. Member for Surrey. 10 eu
the only fault he hal to find with the Noble Lord,swaa
that ho had not sufficiently condemned the laoguage et
that Hon. M-tuber. Nothing but his advanced age (as
we understood) prevented that Hon. Gentleman from
being severely dealt with, and ho (Mr. H. Drummond)had better not trust himself in Ireland, or he might'
perhaps, meet with the same sort of treatment that
tn u
been experienced by General Haynau in this country.
He could assure the House that if there was one
the indignant feelings of the people of Ireland, whateverea
sure which was more calculated than another to rtnosusene
insult to their clergy. There was no excuse
on
for extending this Bill to Ireland, where no aggresstiich
had been committed, and where no pretext for an
y
Issord
legislation existed. The way in which the Noble etc-
brought forward this Bill was worthy of the mostt petti-
fogging attorney. The Noble Lord wrote his nod other
letter, containing allusion to " mummeries, an
Ca-
language which
tholic tellow-subjects; and then, in excuse for u,t
such language, the Noble Lord said that
gave very just offence to their
st.soug
directed, not against Roman Catholics, but agagn"
Puseyites. Why, then,
legislate against Catholics, and not against Puseyitel
(Cheers.) He was glad to say that many of the 11°
testant clergy regretted the system of legislation nowt..
was Parliament called up0n5:,......t0
attempted against the Roman Catholics of
Mr. Lawless then read some this
"ultititeYr
rumps front ao_f
written by a Protestant clergyman to a Meg3berb that
pro-
House, expressing the opinion that it was not g ° ,
vince of the Queen to confer spiritual rights. ,`,„s,
writer observed that because the temporal barony whAvort
the Queen added to the spiritual dice was the
seen and regarded, the mistake had been made of,ca
the names " bishop" and " archbishop" " :Wee,' when
they really were only ecclesiastical designations of Pesl,
sous who sustained a spiritual office in tte ePiecq
church, just as the name " ministers" was th ohol?
given to persons who held a spiritual office in
or Presbyterian churches. The writer therefore
ferred that there was no ground for any measurebe in eAs-
gard to what had been improperly termed "
sumption of ecclesiastical titles." Such WAS the,
ho was a bishop
taken by a Protestant clergyman; would to Met
guussof etsso
Solicitor-General, comparing our present relations With
!—(A. laugh.) The argument o
Rome to those of Roman Catholic times EDgiennus
was absurd ; in Catholic countries bishops were net
appointed by the Pope without the consent of the sole,
reign, but now we did- not acknowledge the potpbe
With regard to the he
feeling upon the subject,
papers, particularly the Times, had made the most Rot
the question, and done all they could to excite puhlt
spirit; in that day's Times there were five letters wstn
regard to Miss Talbot's case—(" Hear, hear, °lld a
laugh)—he regarded this as showing the sort of false
impetus given to the subject in order to back up the,,
Noble Lord in passing this measure.—(" Hear, bear;
"Oh!") It was painful to him (Mr. Lawless) to c!
trust the language used by bishops of his own
argotic
with the temperate address of the Roman C
Bishops of Ireland to their flocks upon the subject of
this measure. (The Hon. Member read several extracts
from this address.) Surely the proceeding now in ques-
tion had arisen as much from ignorance as from& wish ques-
tion
offend. It was not impossible that the Pope, especially
should wish to insult in his present weak state,church
and ex-
asperate a country like this. What bad occurred was
very much to be attributed to the shameful state of things,
as between the Pope and her Majesty, with regard to
temporal subjects. With 7,000,000 of Roman Catho
wlich
s
in Ireland, there should be a proper understanding t
the head of their church. This could not have arisen
if there had been a concordat with Rome. But what
had we? Why, a titled spy; for the Noble Lord who
went to Rome was without any proper credentials, and
was desired to make out the most he could of matters at
Rome. Then followed a misunderstanding as to what
passed with the Pope; and some stated that what then
passed in regard to this measure bad very much encou-
raged the Pope in this " aggression."—(Hear, hear)
With regard to the scandal which had occurred in Ire-
land, in respect to a the godless colleges," as they were
called, he (Mr. Lawless) begged to say that he did his
best to further the national system there, and his father
before him endowed four or five of the national schools
—(Hear, hear)—he was very sorry that from some °Ile;
understanding between the Government and the heads of
the Catholic Church—it could be nothing more-413e°
colleges were not likely at present to be of the use h°
had hoped they would be.—(Hear, hear.) He proceeded
then then to refer to the opinions given by Mr. ""
gan and by " Messrs. Bethel! and C 0.," and stated that
he believed the Bill went further than the Noble
Lord (Lord John raussell) wished or intended, though,
Heaven knew, he intended bad enough to the Catho-
lics.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member adverted again
to the case of Miss Talbot, expressing (as
we under
stood) his belief that she had had her own free will.
and that she had always intended to come up to London.
LA MEMBER—" For the Exhibition?"--A laugh.]
Yes, but a pretty exhibition there had been.—(n!ar
►
hear.) She would be the only sufferer by the
She had:his sympathy.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to
the course taken on the part of the Government, who said
he could not believe the Noble Lord meant what be
wrote in his letter; he had too high a respect for
for his intellect.—(A laugh.) The Noble Lord took as
vantage of a cry, thinking he could strengthen hiceee,
in a position in which he felt shaking.—(Fleur' hear*/
Not having gone fur enough to please the " Protestant
ascendancy boys"—(A laugh)—and having deserted the
real '• religious liberty men," and those who were for
total freedom of conscience—(Hear, hear)—he would
find that " between the two stools he was falling to the
ground"—(Laughter)—and would probably be over-
whelmed in the ruins of his own agitation.
Mr. MUNTZ thought it was a thousand pities our Govern-
ment connived at, or did not protest against, the occupation
of Rome by the French; but for that the Pope would have
had something else to do than disturb the peace of this
country.—(Hear, hear.) This discussion had often turned
aside, as he thought, from the real question. He did not
support this Bill on the ground of the question between the
Roman Catholic religion and the Protestant, which was the
best religion. Each had a right to his osn religion, and
each might think the other's ridiculous; it was the old story
Orthodoxy, is my dory, and heterodoxy is another man's
(A. laugh.) The real question was, had the Pope
comTitte.d. an aggression against the Sovereign' and the
people of this realm ?—(Loud cries of " Hear.") .Now it was
this
that was a great aggression (Hear, hear)—an impu-
dent and arrogant aggression—(" Hear, hear," and "No") • all
those speakers who were not under the influence of the Pope.
—(hear, hear.) The Right Hun. Baronet (Sr J. Graham)
in his very able and clever speech acknowledged that it
Then,
an aggression, and an offensive one. - (Hear, hear.)
hen, if so, upon what principle was Protestant England to
sit down and submit to an aggression from the Pope
ch a
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Were we come to su
miserable condition that we must submit to an Biggressi°l
from any quarter whatever, wi bout meeting it? (Cheers*/
On the introduction of this Bill he (Mr. Muntz) assigned a
reason why he voted for its introduction, viz., that he had
never been able to discover that any country where the Ca-
tholic religion had been supreme had enjoyed liberty or
prosperity.--( Hear, hear.) He bad listened attentively to
this debate, and had not heard any instance given; and one
of his objects in rising was to ask if some gentleman could
enlighten him upon that point. - (Hear, hear.) Till them',
en,
however, he must act upon his own judgmeat.— (H
hear.) The practical question, as the matter regarded the
prosperity and welfare of the country, was to be considered;
and, not having the slightest wish to persecute or injure any
man because he professed a different religion from his own, he
(Mr. Muntz) was not going to encourage a religion which
was not found consistent with the prosperity or the interests
of any country where it prevailed.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not admit the necessity of the appointment of these .
bishops; he was informed &hat every advantage of the
_Cat-
tholic religion was obtair.ed under vicars-apostolic, and tpa
being so, why was he to consent to appointments leadiriFjo
so much dissatisfaction and unpleasant feeling between diff
rent sects?—(Bear, hear.) With one very small exception
there was no state in Europe where bishops were alloyfed,
be appointed by the Pope without the consent of the Go-
called upon to
vernment ; why was Protestant England to tas
do what no other nation, Catholic or Protestants
would do?
(Loud cries of "Hear, hear."l But it bad been done lately
in Austria. Well, it was the interest of the Austrian Go-
vernment to keep their people in a state of subjection. Could
any one show an instance where there was a constitutional
Government maintained under the Catholic religion? [A
MEMBER Belgium.] Belgium was hardly born.— (Hear,
hear ) How long had it existed ? [A 311:31BER—Twenty
years. What 14as an existence of twenty years? - (Hear,
hear.) People said, "Oh, don't fear the Pope; he is sur-
rounded by French ba) ousts."
That was a reason for
fearing him. lie bad no opinion of his own.---a Hear,
hear. ) Who could say bow nearly the matter might
be connected with the Emperor of Russia or of Austria?
(Hear, hear.) It was the best card they could play; they
never had such power as they would have if they could
employ the Pope's influence.—(Hear, hear.) lie (Mr.
alutitz) was very very much struck with a spech made
early in this debate be an Hon. Baronet (sir R. Peel, we be-
lieve)—a manly, English, independent, straightforward
speech.—((%heers.) There Wes in Switzerland a state—Fri-
burg—where the Pope was allowed-to appoint bishops free Of
the control of Government. The bishop there encouraged
the people to march against the Government, and gave
money out of his own pocket for the purpose. He was I"
rested, and sent across the frontier to Rome, He had beers
received there as a martyr.—(Hear, hear.) Wail 010