The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-13 00:00:00

COUN RATES AND EXPENDITUBE BILL.

Ur. M. GIBSON. moved the tieciatri reedits.; of the
County Ratite and F,xpenditure Bill. The Bill vies in
almost all its eseentied particular, the snow as the ins enure
of last seseinn; but some slight alteratiens hod been uvula
to render it more favourable with the manietrany, and to
melte the carrying out of its provisions more easy and
effitrient. A great number of petitions had been pre-
sented in favour of the Bill, many of which came from
Boards of Guardians. Ile trusted, therefore, that the
House would allow the Bill to go into Committee.
Sir J. PAKINGTON oppowed the second reading of
the Bid, and contended that the alteratious that had been
made in the measure had rendered it even more objection-
able than the measure of het session. He would not
deny that taxation and representation ought to go to-
gether, but he asserted that in this Bill that principle
was attempted to be put in force in a manner that would
work the greatest injustice. Another serious change
was that which proposed to take away from the maeis-
teacy the control and management of county gaols. He
did not consider this a regulation for the management of
county-rates merely, but a direct assault on the functions
of county magistrates by a side-wind. This clause of
itself swept away at least nine Acts of Parliament.
This was also the case with lunatic asylums, the super-
vision of which was taken away from the county magis-
trates in the same way. The Bill was brought before
the House last session, and it was referred to a Com-
mittee by general consent. The Right Hon. Gentleman
was chairman of it, and if Lion. Members would only
take the trouble to look at the evidence, they would see
the whole weight of evidence went to show that such a
Bill could never, by any possibility, be brought into
proper working, and that the effect of the Bill
would be to exclude from the management of
county affairs a large number of gentlemen who
had a large pecuniary stake in the country, and who
were in fact the real rate-payers. The Bill wasla bad,
mischievous Bill, and the House would do better to
negative it at once on the second reading, without at-
tempting to battle through the 174 clauses, in the hope
to elicit something like a principle out of it in one corner
or the other. The lion. Member concluded by moving
that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that, as the Hon. Baronet
had directly appealed to him and also to the House on
his motion for the amendment, he must at once say that
he did not at all concur with him in his opinion against
the principle of the 13i11.—(Hear, hear.) He did not say
that there were not many clauses of the Bill which re-
quired amendment, but he conceived that a Bill of this ex-
tensive and important character would necessarily require
much consideration by the House, and would of neces-
sity at-alive much amendment by the Legislature before
it became the law of the land.—(Hear, hear.) Had the
Bill never before been before the House, he might per-
haps have taken a different course, but when he recol-
lected how fully its whole principle had been discussed
last year he thought it was needless to go over the
same ground again. All the amendment which the Bill
required could very readily be given to it in Committee,
and at the proper stage he should be quite prepared to
state objections to those portions of it to which he could
not assent. He would, however, now say that he
thought that it would be a great calamity for the country
if the county magistrates were deprived of those powers
which they had so long exercised for its benefit. The
Honourable Baronet had said that the effect of
this Bill would be to prevent the magistrates in a great
measure from sitting on the financial boards. Now
with that he could not at all agree. On the contrary,
his own impression was, that they would still continue
to ant precisely as they had done. He certainly ob-
jected to the fourth clause which restricted the free-
holders from voting tor magistrates, for his own im-
pression was that the restriction ought to be the other
way ; and that members of the board should
not be elected because they were magis-
trates, but that magistrates should have a right
to be elected because they had the necessary qualifica-
tion. Ho would by no means pass by the boards of
guardians, but he would not say that the county financial
boards should be constituted excluiively out of them. He
thought that the ratepayers ought to be left entirely
without restrictions in their choice, though he must say
that his own opinion was quite in unison with that of
the Honourable Member for Manchester; for he
believed that the best modification that could
be adopted would be to have one-half of
the board composed of magistrates, and the
other half of other persons.—(llear, hear.) He had him-
self, yesterday, presented a petition from the county
which he had the honour to represent (Northumberland),
and in the letter which accompanied it from the gentle-
man by whom it was confided to him, it was stated that
they did not apprehend any great or immediate change
in the position of affairs. His (Sir G. Grey's) opi-
nion was precisely similar, for it was his decided
' conviwion that afier this Bill was passed the
magistrates would find themselves just in the same
places as those which they previously oecupied.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought that the lion. Baronet had
hardly sulllciently observed the difference between the
two parts into which the 13:11 was naturally divided.
There was a great difference between the duties of re-
ceiving and expending the county rates. The functions
oi the magistrate were purely executive, aad therefore
ahem elected en the birds, they would have nothing, or
nest to nothing, to do with the subordinate business o` the
recipienoe of the rate:. The Hon. Baronet had asked him
whether he was prepared to take upon himself the dury
of altering the amount of the constabulary force in the
different counties. To this ho was prepared to say, that
without the concurrence of the megistracv he thought
not; but that if the Secretary uf State, after communi-
cating with the magistrates, received their sanction,
he ought to have the power of directing that
amount. Towards the close of last session he had
been asked whether the Government would take
charge of the Bill, and if not, what course
the 'Government intended to pursue. His reply was that
he could not compromise the Government in any way,
hut that during the recess he would give it his best at-
tention and decide upon the course he ought to pursue.
Ile had done so, and when the proper time came he
should be prepared to enter upon the details of the mea-
awe. Of its principle he entirely approved, and should
therefore vote for the second reading of the Bill.
W. MILES had listened with great attention to
what heti fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey), and could not help saying that he had given the
hes% possible reasons why this Bill should emanate from
the aloverumena After some explanation between Mr.
Miles and Sir George Grey, the former gentleman
proceeded to say, that the effect of the in his
opinion would be to reduce the qualification of
the several members of the beard, and the consequence
would be that those magistrates who were most ac-
queinteel with financial operations would every year
become subject to a fresh election, and most probably,
after having become acquainted with their duties,
would be superseded by other persons. who, in all
probability, would .be totally ignorant of them.
He should like to know exceedingly how the petitions in
favour of the Bill had been got up, because he was
a~rsiJ they had emanated from boards of guardians
under an erroneous impression, which was fostered by a
circular issued by the witness to whom so much refer-
ewe: had already been made.—(Hear, hear.) When
the country expressed its opinion in favour of a
particular course freely and without hesitation, it was
th„ ,iuty of the House to attend to it, but he very much
&meted whether there was a general feeling in favour
of this measure.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to his
own county, no fiCC:. U he could be tatter kept, or more
vigilantly audited, and the consequence bad been, that
t year the rates levied only amounted to lid. iu the
pound, while the actual ex pendh ure of the year, excluding
of course the sums paid by the Government for prosecu-
tion, was no more than 13 0251., which was very small
iered whets the magnitude end txt ant of the country
tsa; considered.—(Hear, he He had no objection to
the arinciple that representation should accompany ex-
penditure. but this Bill went further than that.—(hoar,
"re) It was fraught wi h danger, and until
he ' saw the matter taken up by Government
ho must decline to support any Bill coning from a
private aeurce, and therefore he should vote for the
antendraent--(llear, hear.)
Mr. HUME considered this was a very important
subject, and
it Was high time they legislated upon it.
There was no necessity for further inquiry, nor ought
thq to be deterred from proceeding with this Bill by the
alarm raised by the Ron.
Member for Droitwich.
He bad talked of the delicate interest they were dealing
with, of the long established and valuable institution
they were aboutho to undermine,
'ndieergraiiiniaet,eAindon wtahrinsedsuthhjeenact—to
he cautious
(Cries of g; Hear, hear.)
Why, that was the very
their reorming municipal corpora-
cry raised against
tions. There they were informed that legislation could
produce no beneficial results, though it would create
universal discontent in the country, as
it in-
terfered with an ancient and long. a
ceetithed in-
stitutional but how had that. warning been
realized ?—(Hear, hear.) Why, so far from their legis-
lation hewing given rise to disaffection, it had led to an
improved state of things, and given universal satistaction
to the people. He denied that the evidence of Mr.
Roberts on this subject was unworthy of attention, and
joined issue with the Honourable Gentleman who
last addressed them upon the question he had raised
about the bonci fide character of the petition.—(Hear,
hear.) He was almost ashamed to argue in favour of
this Bill, its utility and necessity were so apparent.—
(Hear.) It needed no lengthy reasoning to establish
the fact, that money was better and more economically
expended by responsible boards, answerable tor every-
thiog they did, than by those who were accountable to no
body for the due and proper performance of their
functions.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, that was the
very principle contained in that Bill, and he should do
all in his power to get it passed into a law.—(Hoar.)
The ewpense of the police and prisons was in a very un-
eatisfa6tory state, and it was necessary that a great
change should be made in their management, in which
he thought the ratepayers should have a share. In his
opinion eit would be to the interest of the ma-