The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-12 00:00:00

CATHEDRAL TRUSTS.

Mr. MOWATT called the attention of the House to the
case of the Rochester Grammar School. It was one in which
the oppression of an individual was mixed up with the great
subject of education. In the year 1848 the Rev. Mr. Whis-
ton, the head master of the Rochester Grammar School, ap-
plied to the dean and chapter, pointing out that the four ex-
hibitions attached to the school were not sufficient for the
original purpose for which they were intended ; and though
in the year 1542, when the school was established, with the
cathedral, the sum of 51. was amply sufficient, being equal to
801. at present, it was so no longer. The dean and chapter
desired him to close the correspondence, and Mr. Whiston
appealed to the public; and then, having published a book,
entitled "Cathedral Trusts and their Fulfilment," for this he
was dismissed. The facts could not be refuted; and to show
how education was connected with cathedral trusts, he would
refer to several documents—to the preamble of the statutes,
and then to the cathedral statutes, which provided that 21
poor boys should be maintained out of the cathedral re-
venues, and four scholars sent to the university, and
maintained there. Amongst the provisions made were—for
the dean, 100/. ; six prebends, 201. each ; and so on with
others, until they came to 20 students, at 11. 13s. 4d. ; and
foar students, at Cl. 13s. 4d. each—the value of money then
being sixteen times as much as at the present day. All
parties in that House—every one in the country—was in.
terested in the progress of education ; and they could not
but see the benefit that would be derived from the faithful
execution of the cathedral trusts for education. Canterbury
should have 50 boys with 4/. each— equal to about 54/.
Westminster had 40 boys, which it maintained; but it
took 1,8001. from the 40 foundation scholars, and 1,700/. from
the Queen's scholars, under the pretence of additional build-
ings. Worcester, 40 boys, had reduced its stipend from
51. 10s. to 21. 13s. 4d. Ely, which in the sixteenth century
had 300 scholars, two years ago had but 24 ; Peter-
borough, 20 boys ; Rochester, 19 or 20 ; Durham, 18 scholars
—in all, 212 free scholars and 50 or 60 exhibitions at the
two universities. Then the following four were bound to
maintain scholars :—Chester, 24; Bristol, 24; Carlisle, 20,
but two years ago it had no school ; and Gloucester, 20. He
next referred to the opinions of the counsel ; the Attorney-
General and Mr. Lewis stating that the dean and chapter
were bound out of the cathedral funds to provide for the
maintenance of the different scholars in proportion to the
other stipends, and declaring that desuetude would not re-
lease the dean and chapter from the original obligation as to
making due and proportionate provision for the purpose of
education. He would now state what the actual conduct of
the Dean and Chapter of Rochester was in respect to the na-
ture of the trust confided to them. The sum of 531. 6s Bd.
was allotted to the school in 1542, which in the present day
would be worth sixteen times that amount, making, there-
fore, the sum of 8531. 6s. Bd. But the increased stipends
amounted to thirty-four times the original amount. During
the years 1833, 1834, 1835, 1836,1837, and 1838, the amounts
paid out of the prodigiously increased revenues of the cathe-
dral institutions of Rochester were but 61., 54, 51., 6/., 3!., 11.,
and 1/. again, and in 1839 there was no school at all, the
building having been taken down and the site sold. So that
in that year there were no bop to receive any of the advan-
tages. Some time afterwards, in consequence of the comments
of the press upon these facts, there was another school
built. It appeared that during the present century the
Dean and Chapter of Rochester divided amongst themselves
about 5,004., which had been given for educational pur-
poses. The Rev. Mr. Whiston published a pamphlet, entitled
"Cathedral Trusts and their Fulfilment." And in con-
sequence of certain statements made by him in such work he
was declared unworthy to be entrusted with the functions of
head master of the Grammar School at Rochester. It was
true that the Rev. Mr. Whiston, in mentioning these facts in
his pamphlet, characterised their conduct as unbecoming
any man, and still more a clergyman ; but he (Mr. Mowatt)
submitted that the language was strictly applicable to the
facts of which he treated. The Bishop of Rochester, when
Dean of Worcester, it appeared, had allowed the rules ap-
pertaining to this grammar school to be set at naught in
the way he had described. It was impossible for the Bishop
to interfere on behalf of Mr. Whiston, without at the same
time passing condemnation upon himself. Mr. Whiston
made an appeal to the Bishop on behalf of the charity, and
after an interval of 15 months he was told that he ought to
go to Chancery. He then appealed to the public by the
publication of the pamphlet referred to, upon which he was
dismissed from his office of head master. Mr. Whiston then
applied to the Court of Queen's Bench, and obtained a
ply
mandamus to restore him to his office. He was in hopes that
they would have met him on the merits of the case, but the
Dean and Chapter abstained from putting in their case,
but met Mr. Whiston upon ure technical grounds—
namely, that on his being dismissed he should have made an
appeal to the Bishop as visitor in the first instance; and it
was only in case of his refusal to reinstate him in his office
he would be justified in going into the Queen's Bench. Now,
Mr. Whiston was, comparatively speaking, a poor man,who

they knew was unable to bear the heavy expenses of a law-
suit ; and, acting upon that knowledge, they did not find it
difficult to defeat him in his operations against them. The
total amount of the endowments in 1542 was 547/. 18s. aid. ;
its present endowments amounted to upwards of 4,500/
The gross receipts as returned by the chapter on an average
for several years, down to 1834, amounted to a very large
sum for Canterbury. In 1542 there was expended on the
school there 4'01., being one-sixth of the total revenue,
whereas in 1831 there was only expended about 1-164th
part. The Hon. Gentleman having quoted at some length
from the returns before him, for the purpose of showing hew
these funds had been diverted from their original applica-
tion, and having referred to the oath taken by the dean and
chapter, which was to observe all those ordinances and sta-
tutes passed in the reign of their founder Henry VIII., be
then proceeded to contrast with them tho manner in which
other trusts were observed. A prebendary of Canterbury
asked Mr. Whiston what useful object did he hope to obtain
from the publication of his pamphlet, for the exposure of
such facts as were therein contained was calculated to do
grievous injury to the Church. Upon inquiry into the facts
connected with this gentleman, it was found that from his
prebendary income of Canterbury he received 1,0001. a
year ; from the tithes of various parishes about
3,000/. a year; from a certain rectory, 6851. a
year ; from the rectory of Cliffe, near Rochester,
1,3911, 10s. 10 ; making in the whole 6,217/. ss.
received by this prebendary of Canterbury. The
statutes allowed these members of the Dean and Chapter
of Rochester to hold one ecclesiastical benefice, provided
such benefice was not more than 24 miles distant from Ro-
chester; but still three of these prebendaries held more than
one benefice, some of which were more than 100 miles from
Rochester, and the value of the livings held by the Dean and
Chapter of that cathedral was 4,8305. ; the value of the
revenue which they enjoyed in connexion with the Lepers'
Hospital, 5,7071. ; and their patronage was 4,940/. One
of these prebends of Rochester, who refused to augment
the original allowance of 51.—and his was not the largest
income—received 2,251/. 4s. sd. directly from the cathedral,
and held a living worth from tithes alone 953/. 7s. Id.
a year, and had received for the renewal of leases
3,0001. in a single year. He would not do any member of
the Government the injustice of supposing that he would offer
any resistance to his motion, but anticipated that his motion
would be opposed by the Right Hon. Member for the Uni-
versity of Cambridge. But that Right Hon. Gentleman was
the hired advocate of the abuses which would come within
the cognizance of the Commission which he wished to have
appointed. He received 1,000/. a year as one of the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners, and what were his duties? To
come to that House and step the mouth of any inde-
pendent Member who might ask a question reflecting in
the slightest degree on any part of the Church Establish-
ment. For his own part, he had no object in making this
motion but an honest conviction of its necessity. The State
stood in loco parentis towards these schools, and Henry VIII.
in founding cathedral bodies never intended to part with all
control over such institutions. It might be urged by some
that 12 or 13 grammar schools, more or less, could not haVe
any great effect upon the education of the country ; but on
the other hand, he agreed with the Right Hon. Member for
the University of Oxford in thinking that incalculable ad-
vantages would flow from the existence in every cathedral
town of the nucleus of a first-rate grammar school. The Hon.
Member concluded by moving that an humble address be pre-
sented to her Majesty, praying that she will be graciously
pleased to appoint a Commission to inquire into and report
upon the administration of the educational trusts confided to
the cathedral establishments of the kingdom.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL gave the Hon. Member full
credit for the motives to which he had laid claim, but re-
gretted that the Hon.-Member had not exercise I the same
charity towards the Bishop, Dean, and Chapter of Rochester,
and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University
of Cambridge. The real question was, whether the House
should go into a Committee of Supply; and there were many
who felt as strong an interest on the subject of education as
the Hon. Member, but who nevertheless thought it more im-
portant, at this late period of the session, to proceed with
supply.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had rested his
argument, from beginning to end, on the case of the Deati
and Chapter of Rochester. He had undoubtedly mentioned
others, but the whole of his speech, of more than two hours
in length, with the exception of about 10 minutes, was de-
voted to the case of Mr. Whiston. He had known Mr.
Whiston at college, and he had read his able work, in which
he had certainly collected a great deal of useful information.
He would not follow his Hon. Friend through all the refe
rencea which he had made to that work. The great objec-
tion which he had to the motion was that it was founded en-
tirely on a matter in the course of adjudication before a com-
petent tribunal ; and though he had no doubt that he would
conscientiously discharge his duty, still the Bishop, from a
natural hesitation to decide grave legal questions, had called
to his assistance one of the ablest of our judges, Mr. Baron
Parke. Besides this he would have the official assistance of
Dr. Lushington. Mr. Whiston's case was, therefore, in very
good hands. But the state of the law and the position which
the Legislature had assumed with regard to cathedral funds
rendered this motion peculiarly inappropriate, irrespective
of the period chosen for bringing it forward. Mr. Whis-
ton's book had given the fullest information on the
subject, so that there was nothing to inquire into. It
might be a question whether it would not have been wise—
he should have thought it very wise— to have taken care,
when the distribution of the cathedral property was made,
to have made some provision for education in connexion
with the Church. But the Legislature had not taken that
course. By the 3 and 4 Vic., c. 113, the, incomes of the dean
and every prebendary of every cathedral was fixed, and they
had no longer any interest in the question, for the whole
surplus was handed over to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
to be applied to the relief of spiritual destitution. The
House might undoubtedly revoke its decision, but the ques-
tion was, whether it would be better to apply relief to spi-
ritual destitution or to the maintenance of grammar schools.
This was debateable ground, and the House a few nights
ago, in agreeing to an address to her Majesty, had shown
no disposition to retrace its steps. He (the Solicitor-Ge-
neral) was sorry time did not allow him to enter into the
observations which the Hon. Gentleman had made in refer-
ence to the attacks on private individuals which were con-
tained in the pamphlet. He entertained the most perfect
respect for Mr. Whiston; but they all knew how easy it
was for a person to be led into the use of strong expressions
who took a one-sided view of a case; and, for his part, he
could only look on the pamphlet as the production of an ad-
vocate.— (Hear.)
Mr. BERNAL said that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Mowatt)
had mixed up the case of Mr. Whiston with some very
important matters ; but he would do him the justice of
saying that he had used that case as an illustration of the
more general subject, and only as a part of a whole. He
agreed with the Solicitor-General that Mr. Whiston's case
was now sub judice pendente lite. He (Mr. Bernal) deeply
bewailed the facts which had been placed before the House.
He regretted that these things should become matter of open
scandal, for they prejudiced the benefits which ought to be
derived from our old and excellent institutions; they dif-
fused a large degree of malevolent gossip throughout the
land ; they did no good to anybody whatever, and they
excited a universal feeling of disgust and contempt.—( Hear.)
He had observed that Mr. Whiston's case Was only a part of
a general question, and that being pendente lite, it was not
for the House of Commons now to pronounce judgment upon
it. There were other equally important questions—that
respecting the poor alumni and other things, which were
touched upon but slighty by his Right Hon, Friend. One
point to which he wished to call the attention of the House
was the reading which the Solicitor-General had given them
of the Act 3d and 4th Vic. If; as the lion. and Learned
Gentleman said, the deans and chapters had no funds with
which to act, at once there was an estoppel put upon
the question. But was he right in his construction of the
statute? Were the funds so completely removed from the
control or the possibility of application on the part of the
different ecclesiastical bodies? If the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman were correct, not another year should be per-
mitted to elapse before Parliament altered the provisions of
that statute.—( He ir, hear.) He granted that the motion
of his Hon. Friend had not been brought before the House
in the best form; but certainly the points on which he had
based his motion were points of the greatest importance, and
it behoved every and aiiy Government to give their most
devoted attention to them.—(Hear, hear.) The time was
come when it must not be left to the contingent chance of
individual rooting out the real uses of a trust, but the Go-
vernment themselves were called upon imperatively to look
into these matters. This was demanded by the spirit of the
age; and if Government manifested some genial harmony
with that spirit, they might proceed with safety, and effect
great good. But if, on the other hand, they slumbered on
—at one time defending the ecclesiastical bodies, and at
other times carping at them for doing nothing—they would
be laughed at out of doors, and by their apathy and torpor
go far to pull down the bulwarks of the Church, and destroy
that respect for religion which was inherent in the bosom of
every Englishman.—(Hear.)
Mr. MILNES bore his testimony, the result of a long
and intimate acquaintance with Mr. Whiston, to that gen-
tleman's ability and excellent character. If in his pamphlet
Mr. Whiston lad used any phrases which appeared to par-
take of unnecessary acerbity, Hon. Gentlemen should not
forget that that pamphlet was published only as a last re-
source, and after every attempt had been made on his part
to bring about what he conscientiously believed to be just by
fair and courteons means ; and, secondly, that when sum-
moned before the chapter, he stated in the most positive
way, that he extremely regretted any violent expressions
which he might have used, and that he entirely disavowed
any intention of injuring or insulting any member of that
body.—( Hear.) And he (Mr. Milnes) could not but think
that the chapter would have done greater justice to the re-
ligion they professed and the establishment to which they
belonged, if they had treated Mr. Whiston in a different
spirit, and met his advances in another manner. If the case
was as it had been stated by the Solicitor-General, then,
indeed they had nothing whatever to do with the matter,
and they would have had merely to refer Mr. Whiston
to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and to say that they
would be extremely glad to dispose of a larger portion of the
cathedral funds in favour of this educational establishment,
but they were prevented by law from doing so. The fact
was, however, he could not find that the dean and chapter
had ever used that argument. On the contrary, so far
from that, they had always, in their communication with
Mr. Whiston, stated that the question of increasing the ad-
vantages of this educational establishment was one to which
they were not opposed, and to which they were perfectly
willing to direct their attention. They never seemed to think
for one moment that the case was out of their hands.—( Hear,
hear.) There could be no doubt that the legal question had
gone against Mr. Whiston—that the question whether these
cathedral trustees were trustees in a legal sense or not had
been decided against him; and his removal from the office
of master was a secondary matter to that. Mr. Whiston
had certainly failed; but that was no reason why, upon a
representation of the case before the Hause of Commons,
applied to the difficulty.—
some remedy should not be
(Hear, hear.) In asking for a Commission his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Mowatt) had done no more than the circumstances
isnh o udloclin doing;
taainnly fvohtee
of the case fairly warrantedmiti i litres)
went to a division he (Mr•
with him. If the present debate was followed by no other
consequences, he trusted that, at any rate, it would reach the
ears of that important body the Dean and Chapter of
Rochester, that it was the opinion of this House that Mr.
Whiston's case
was deserving of at least very generous con-
sideration, and he did hope they would see that it would be
becomin in a great body like them to act above all suspicion
of pettygmotives, personal feelings,
personal pique, or per-
sonal profit.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that they would see
that they could not do greater justice to themselves than by
putting the most lenient, even though it might not be a
strictly just, interpretation Upon the past, and by retaining
Mr. Whiston in the situation to which he had done so much
honour, really confer honour upon themselves.—(Cheers.)
Mr. 1101INDELL PALMER lamented that on occasions
like that, when a gentleman brought forward a question
affecting the Established Church, it should be deemed a
fitting opportunity of introducing personal attacks upon in-
dividuals. the injustice was great, and in the present
instance peculiarly so, for this reason. The offence imputed
to the Dean and Chapter of Rochester was, that there being
certain estates provided for other excellent purposes, as well
as for the maintenance of the dean and chapter, they had
suffered some of these purposes to remain in a state of decay,
whilst others which were beneficial to themselves had been
kept up.— (Hear.) Now what, he asked, could be more un-
just than making a practice which had endured for centuries
the subject Qf attack upon individuals who ought till these I

offices at this particular period ? If the motion of the Hon
Nlember for Penryn had been introduced in a different man'
ner and in a different spirit, with reference to the question
involved in it—though he readily admitted there was no,"
thing acrimonious in the tone of the Honourable Gentleman
retnarks—(Hear)—if personal questions had not bees so
largely imported into the discussion, then he should have
thought the llon. Gentleman had done considerable service.
It was undoubtedly a very large subject, and he must say
that the coarse which the Legislature had taken in the matter
of Church reform had been too much in the nature of a diver.
genca irons the original destination of Church property.--
( Hear.) The cathedral bodies many of them derived large
incomes from the tithes of different parishes, and one would
have thought that it was a plain obvious principle of justice,
that when dealing with the surplus revenues of these
cathedrals these tithes should be restored to the parishes
which paid them, to provide for the spiritual wants of these
parishes. Ile regretted to say, however, that that prineiPle
had been lost sight of in their Church reform, and had not
been recognised on the face of the Cathedral Act. It seem"
to him to be one of the most harsh and unjust things in the
world, for individuals out of doors, the public press, or Mein'
hers of this House, to introduce a subject of this kind for,
consideration, in language which implied that wrong had
been done by:individuals, and that their acts had been uncoil-
ecientious, when they had merely abstained from taking upon
themselves the work of effecting an extensive reform by the
restoration and revival of institutions decayed centuries be'
fore they had anything to do with them. He regretted that
in writing his pamphlet, and throughout all his proceeding!,
Mr. Whiston had not borne in mind what was due to indisq'
duals by those who desired to reform abuses for the benefit
of the.public. Mr. Whiston might have done great good to
the public without suffering injury himself if he had ad-
dressed himself either to the law affecting the case, or 111
e epediency and policy of a reform of cathedral schools, and
he (Mr. Palmer) thought it was most to be regretted for the,
sake of the Cathedral of Rochester and for the public, that
he should have done it by attacking individuals who were,
after all, his superiors, to whom he was subordinate, and
who could not but expect some degree of consideration for,
the position they occupied as his superiors in the Church 01
England.
Mr. HUME said he felt there was no ground for the corn'
plaint of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just ad'
dressed the House, that those questions were brought for-
ward in the absence of the persons most deeply interested in
them ; for surely the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could
not man that such a discussion as that should be deferred
until the bishops and the deans and chapters should have
seats in that House. Those abuses had, in many instances,
continued for centuries ; but that circumstance only afforded
art additional reason for their removal. His experience cone
vince,i him that there was no class of men more anxious
than clergymen to hold fast to every misappropriation of
Church property, by which they themselves benefited, note
withstanding their appeals to others for liberal cotributione
to the purposes of the Church. It appeared to him that Dire
Whiston had been most unjustly treated in that matter, and
that the deans and chapters had acted most unreasonably.
It was time for the friends of the Church to attempt to re-
form its abuses, in compliance with the general feeling 01
the public. Let a Commission, such as his Hon. Friend
had suggested, be appointed to inquire into those abuses
and let the abuses be removed, and then the Church would
occupy a much safer position than that in which she was at
present placed.
Lord J. it mSSELL said he would not then enter into the
seecial case which had been brought under their notice by
the Hon. Member for Penrhyn (Mr. Mowatt). But he wished
to say a. few words on the general question which had been
introduced into the discussion. The great object which the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners, since their first appointment,
had had. in view, was to provide for the spiritual destitution
which existed in many parts of the country, in which the
population had increased from ~OSO or 1,500 persons to
40,00 e or 50,000 persons. All the measures taken by the
Commissioners had been directed to that object,
althoug,a he would not undertake to say whether
or not those measures had always been the best calcu-
lated to attain that end. They had taken large portions
of cathedral property, they had abolished sinecure rec-
tories. and they had made other changes for the purpose
of erecting and endowing new churches. That was, at all
events, a clear and definite mode of proceeding. But some
persons would adopt a different course, and would retain, in
a reformed shape, cathedral establishments. They would, in
fact, restore the cathedral system to what they conceived
to have been its original purpose and condition. Now that,
too, was a perfectly intelligible proposal, and it was ono
which b.ad been supported with great ability in the press and
in that House, But when the House had come to a discussion
upon the subject there had been but a very small amount el
votes in favour of that view of the question; and he believed
that it had never received any extensive support in the
country. He had only further to add that it that course
were pursued they should relinquish that object which the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Parliament had hitherto
steadily kept in view, and they should altogether abandon
their present mode of proceeding. He repeated that he did
not mean to enter into the question whether the Dean and
Chapter of Rochester had behaved properly or not in the
particular case which had been brought under their con-
sideration. That case would soon be heard, not only by the
Bishop of the diocese, but also by Baron Parke ; and until
it had been so heard he thought it would be premature on
the part of the House of Commons to pronounce any decision
in the matter.
Mr. HEY WOOD said he thought that grammar schools
had at least as good a right to be maintained as cathedral
establishments. Indeed, those latter establishments could
not possibly be conducted, since the Reformation, in confor-
mity with the wishes of their founders, while grammar
schools would be productive of the greatest national benefit
if the principles on which they had been established were
steadily adhered to.
Mr. MOWATT intimated that he would not press his mo-
tion to a division.
The motion was accordingly negatived without a division.
SUPPLY—THE MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Sur
ply, Mr. Bernal in the chair.
A vote of 46,8241. having been proposed for the British
Museum,
Mr. HUME said that that was a large sum, but he had
no objection to make to it, as it was to be applied to a most
valuable national object. He wished to see the whole of that
magnificent collection, and more especially the library, more
extensively thrown open to the public. The Commissioners
who had inquired into the state of the Museum had recom-
mended a change in the system of its management, and that
instead of a committee of thirty individuals, it should be
managed by a small executive committee, whose members
should be paid, and should be individually responsible for
the trust committed to their care. He entirely approved of
that recommendation, and he hoped it would speedily be
carried into effect.
Sir R. H. INGLIS said he believed there was no one insti-
tution in which the people of this country took so much in-
terest as in the British Museum, and that there was none
which offered such striking marks of increasing popularity.
Forty years ago the number of readers had amounted to 1,590
only, and last year the number of readers had amounted to
72,000. In the year 1835 the number of books in the lib-
rary had been 235,000, while they were at present, be be-
lieved, twice that number, or 470,000. Not less than 1,070,000
persons had entered the Museum as visitors in the course of
lest year, while the number of visitors five years ago had
only been 680,000, and had only been 70,04 in the year
1810. And he could further state, that while the number of
visitors had so greatly increased their conduct had been
beyond all praise.—( Hear, hear.) He believed the library
of the Museum was at present open during a greater
number of hours, and was accessible to a greater number
of persons, than any similar establishment in the world. He
trusted that during the recess the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government would take into his consideration the in-
creasing wants of the establishment, and would give his at-
tention to the necessity of adding to the buildings.
Mr. W. J. FOX suggested the opening of the British Mu-
seum in the evening, as it would be useful to many young
men, who would take advantage of the opportunity afforded
to them as students. This might be done with the duplicate
copies, now about 70,000 volumes, which could be distributed
in rooms adjoining to the Museum.
Mr. EWART supported the proposition of his Hon.
Friend. In some places the libraries were open in the
evening. Even the Pope had such a library opened at night
in Rome.

INGLIS observed that if the proposition were
adopted it would require an additional staff. As far as
experience went, it was seen that the numbers decreased as
the evening hours approached He would wish to see two
or three public libraries opened in other parts of London.
As to the duplicate copies of books, many of them were in
use at the sant,- time ; and books specifically given to the
Museum could not to be transferred elsewhere.
Mr. STANFORD, from ten years' experience, could bear
testimony to the excellence of accommodation, the attend.
ance, and attention of thosr engaged in the library of the
Museum. The means at the disposal of the young
men in
this metropolis of reading in a public library were less than
in other parts of Europe. He did not think there were more
than 1,000 regular readers in the Museum at this time,
though the returns made them appear much larger. He
supported the proposition.
Mr. M. MILNES complained of the state of ventilation in
the library. A change had been recommended by the Com-
missioners in the constitution of the governing body. He
wished to know from the Noble Lord whether that recom-
mendation was to be carried into effect.
Mr. SLANEY suggested to the Noble Lord to follow out
the proposition of toe Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis), of esta-
blishing several public libraries in the city of London.
Mr. ANSTEY wished to know why the Home Office had
the power of interfering in the management of the Museum,
so as to prevent persons having access to maps. He referred
to a letter be had received from a gentleman complaining he
would not he allowed to see maps of the Medway.
Sir INGLIS remarked that the documents alluded to
were considered as setting forth the titles of the Crown to
certain possessions, and which could not therefore be shown
without the consent of the Crown.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that some of the suggestions of
the Commissioners were adopted by the trustees. He did
not think it advisable to adopt other parts of the report.
The report itself was a most valuable document, and would
from time to time influence the Government. As to an in-
crease of the number of libraries, he had, when the library of
George 111. was
given up by George IV., suggested, instead
of placing it in the British Museum, it should be transferred
to a different part of the town. The subject, however, of
establishing other libraries was one that required consi-
deration.
Mr. HUME said it was absolutely necessary to have a
small executive management board. The present constitu-
tion of the managing body was most objectionable. The sa-
laries of the establishment amounted to 25,000.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he found that there was a constant
attendance of the most able men in the country at the meet-
ings of the trustees. Amongst them were Mr. llallam, Mr.
Macaulay, Mr. Goulburn, Sir D. Dundas, and Sir Robert
Inglis.

Ilr. HENLEY hoped that the trustees would take mea-
sures to have such information placed before them as would
enable them to judge of the number of individuals that
availed themselves of the advantages afforded them in the
library of the institution. The Noble Lord said he thought
it desirable that several public libraries should be esta-
blished throughout the country, but he had not applied him-
self to the immediate question at issue, having been led away
from it by the observations which had fallen from the Hon.
Gentleman behind him. If the fact were, as the lion.
Member for Reading had stated it, he thought it very extra-
ordinary that only 1,000 parsons should have availed them-
selves of the benefits of this library.
Sir R. 11. INGLIS said that such a statement was incor-
rect. The number of persons that used the library was
nearer to 40,000, and the number of visitors exceeded 78,000
within the last year. The least number of volumes furnished
in one day was 100.
Mr. STANFORD said he was in the habit of using the
library, and never found more there than 30 persons on an
average, who were generally the same that he usually met
there. He therefore felt himself justified in saying that he
thought there were not more than 1,000 persons who availed
themselves of the advantage of the reading-room. He be-
lieved that the 70,000 visitors alluded to by the Hon. Baronet
were made up of the same persons that attended there day
after day.
Mr. HENLEY said if these statistics were kept he was
sure there would be no objection to inform them of the exact
Mabel of puma that frequented the place. ,