The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY.- EVENING,

T,RIAL OF A LOCOMOTIVE ON THE
CHESHIRE JUNCTION RAILWAY.
The trial of the tractive powers of the Druid engine,
concerned in the fatal , collision in the Sutton tunnel,
which was .undertaken to satisfy Captain Laffan, the
Government inspector, and the jury who are investigat-
ing the case, took place on Saturday morning at half-
past eight o'clock. Tne engine was in good working
condition, having been worked out at Chester on Thurs-
day night for Captain Laffan's inspection; she took on
a train of eighteen carriages at Chester, consisting of
two first.class, six covered seconds and thirds, and ten
open stand-ups—the number sworn to by Mr. Crutchley,
the station-master at Chester, and others, as being that
dispatched in the train that blocked the road through
the tunnel. The stand-ups were capacious vehicles from
the North Staffordshire lines, capable of holding an im-
mense number of persons, sixty at least, and therefore
gave reason for believing that one of the witnesses had been
misled when he said there were twenty-five carriages in
the train. The weight put in to represent passengers
consisteu of old chairs and rails, distributed over the
whole, and making, as was expected, with the weight of
the engine, tender, and carriages, 152 tons. The engine
was assisted to Frodstiani, and there awaited the ar-
rival of Captain Laffan, who was punctual to his ap-
pointed hour. The coroner and six of the jury were in
attendance, with Mr. Brugge, who manages the locomo-
tive department; Mr. Alleson, locomotive superin-
tendent; Mr. Norris, of the London and North-Western
Company, and others. Captain Laffan made an experi-
mental trip through the tunnel, and returned, and then
the train was attached. The engine drew her load very
slowly, indeed, at starting, apparently scarcely able to
move it; but she soon got over that, and attained a con-
siderable speed, reaching the mouth of the tunnel, about
a mile and thretequarters, in ten minutes thirty seconds.
She maintained her speed pretty evenly through the
tunnel, and it was evident that she only decreased
it when her wheels slipped, which they did some
little, as was marked by a peculiar beat. The tunnel
was perfectly clear, and the end might be distinctly
seen, like a section of a large circle, when the train
was seen a quarter of a mile from the mouth at the
Frodsham end. It was, however, wet, considerable
quantities of water falling in large drops on the
persons of the passengers. With the exception of the
tattering named, the engine went through well, and
reached the other end, a distance of a mile and a quar-
ter. in 3 minutes 55 secunds. She then seentdown the
incline towards Moon, two miles off, at which station
she finally drew up, 5 minutes 35 seconds after leaving
the tunnel, travelling the whole five miles in 20 minutes,
with that load on, at the rate of fifteen wiles per hour.
We should add that from the tunnel to Moon there was
a strong wind blowing against the carriages at an angle
of 45 degrees, or at the rate of fifteen miles per hour.
Everybody seemed satisfied with the performance, and 1
Captain Lisa said the engine had done her work well;
but in the evening, at the close of the inquest, he stated
it would be requisite to have a second trial, as, on going
back to Chester to ascertain for himself the actual
weight in the trains, irrespective of the engine and car-
riages, he found it was 20 tons less than he had expected.
He then gave the basis of his calculation for weight,
which be averred Mr. Bragge gave in his evidence. He
took 10 stand-ups at 65 passengers each—Mr. Bragge
having said from 60 to 70—and that gave a total of 650
persons; the third class, it was in evidence, were much
crowded, and he took them at 40 persons each, there
were six of them, which gave 240 persons; then the
first class held 18 persons each, 36 tor the two; that
gave a grand total of 936 persons. He had taken it for
granted that they would be grown-up people, and as 12
stone each was the weight taken by Mr. Bragge him-
self, he had calculated on that, and the number of tone,
860 persons at that weight would be required to be on
the train.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, May 12.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Lord CAMPBELL said, in reference to the two Bills
relating to the amendment of the criminal law which
stood for committal that day, he had received a COtaIIILF.
nication from Lord Denman, statiog that he approved
of the principle of those Bills, and that he should
wish to suggest some . amendments in them; now
as the suggestions of his Noble and Learned Friend
could not but,be most valuable, and he was happy to.find
that his Noble and Learned Friend still took an interest
in the subject, he would move the postponement of the
Committee on those Bills, in order to afford him an op-
portunity of receiving the very valuable suggestions of
his Noble and Learned Friend.—Agreed to.
EXCHEQUER-BILLS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time. and passed.
INDEMNITY BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
PETITIONS.
The Bishop of WINCHESTER presented several pe-
titiens against Papal aggression.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several
petitions against Papal aggression.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from a parish
in Perthshire to the same purport.
The Earl of ENNISKILLEN presented several peti-
tions from places in Ireland to a similar purport.
The Duke of ARGYLE presented several petitions
from places in Scotland to a similar purport.
The Earl of HARROWBY presented several peti-
tions praying for a repeal of the Sale of Beer Act; also
several petitions in favour of eopybold enfranchisement.
FOREIGN FLOUR.
The Earl of GLENGALL presented a petition of
which he had given notice from the grand jury of Tip-
perary in favour of protection to home-made flour.
The Noble Earl said this was a most serious question.
There was as large an amount of capital invested in
flour-mills as there was in cotton-mills, and in Ireland
the flour establishments were as large as the cotton es-
tablishments is England, and now the French had
erected mills and undersold them in the market in the
finer specimens of flour. Tee Irish mill-owners had pur-
chased up all tbe corn in Ireland. and had driven
a most profitable trade in-it, and now their profits would
be sensibly diminished by the importation of French
flour, and the carriage of corn and flour would be di-
mielshed. He bad frequently seen in the town with
which he was connected 500 or 600 carts employed in
carrying corn to these mills, and bringing the
flour away. The consequence of free trade had
been that these milts had been ruined, and
that the people had been compelled to live upon that
nasty filth called Indian meal, which was positively
poisonous. The people could not work upon it. In all
the milling districts the workhouses were crowded, and
they had been compelled to take auxiliary workhouses,
and those auxiliary workhouses had formerly been stores
for the millers for Irish corn. This was a positive fact.'
It reacted on this country, producing a deluge of Irish
paupers, who were sent over by the Irish unions at half.
a-crown a head; and if they continued the free-trade
system they would have all the Irish paupers sent over
to England. Now for the facts. Ia 1849 there had
been imported into England of foreign flour 3,349.899
cwt.; in 1850, 3,890 440 cwt.; whereas in 1847 there
had been imported only 1,339,000 cwt. of flour. He
then proceeded to show that a large bonus was realized by
importing foreign grain in the shape of flour, instead of in
its raw material, owing to its being rendered capable of
stowage in a smaller compass by that process. He con-
tended that there was as large an amount of capital invested
in flour mills as there was in cotton mills; that in Ireland
the flour mills were as costly as the cotton mills of England ;
and that it was a lamentable circumstance that the French
millers, who lived at no cost on board of the vessels with
which they imported the best flour into Ireland, should
undersell the Irish and the British miller in their own mar-
kets. He concluded by eapressing his conviction that free
trade would be destructive of all the beat interests of the
country, and that under itt fatal dominion industry would
never reap the advantages vhich were its due, and skill and
energy would be of no use.
Earl GRANVILLE observed that it was always a dis-
agreeable task to make a reply to a statement of distress,
when, in admitting the exigence of that distress to a certain
extent, you had to deprecatethe remedy which was proposed
for its relief. He did not feel himself bound on the present
occasion either to reply to tie objections which the Noble
Earl had urged against the system of free trade generally, or
to enter into a discussion on the state of Ireland, into which
the Noble Earl had entered ss largely, especcially when the
accounts which he had received from various quarters dis-
proved, rather than proved, the accuracy of the Noble Earl's
information. He believed that the ;distress suffered by the
millowners of Ireland, and to elaborately detailed by the
Noble Earl. existed to a co.piderable extent ; but he could
not agree with the Nol)le led that it arose from increased
competition with the French, millowners, or with his sug-
gestion that protection to hone-made flour would be the best
remedy for it. He also beliered that distress was sustained
by the millowners of Eilglaea, They were undergoing at
hich often befell the manufac-
turers of the country. Amidthe improvements which had recently been made in the co
Those who had a larger amount
machi-
nery, it was found that those millowners who had a limited
capital, and resided at a di4ance from the best markets,
were gradually displaced b
of capital, and who had the benefit of the best markets. It
could not be disadvantageous io the millowners to have the
of the people; and, there-
raw material of their trade cheep; for its cheapness led to
greater consumption on the pal
fore, they must derive advantage, as well as the hulk of the
community, from having a Isurger introduction of grain than
formerly into the markets of tits country, With regard to
the competition of the Frenchmillowners, he had recently
seen a French gentleman, well known to many of their Lord-
ships, who had recently held lighoircein
.ao, and that
Iran"genYl e gentleman
(we think his Lordshi ,
had itifOrmed Min that there vas no branch of industry in
France in which so much protttss had been made in the last
20 years as that with which tl millowncrs were connected,
and that, nevertheless, the miliewners were at that moment
complaining loudly of tbe in!Pcient remuneration which
they for th
received in return it labour and their capital. It
was clear. from the statenient nade to him by M. Delessert,
that some of the minor millownere of France must have
given way in the competition wiicb they bad recently under-
g with the larger capitilistt, and yet he did not expect
that any of their Lordships weld be prepared to say that it
would have been a wise messurf on the part of the French
Government to have bolstered tp the weaker portion of this
trade by aid furnished from theresources of the state. An-
other observation which had Nen from the Noble Earl was
that the French farmer was &living great profit from im-
porting corn to England. *-1* he (Earl Granville) had
every reason to believe that thesontrary was the fact. The
same complaints which were ntlde in -England of the dis-
tressedcondition of the English farmer were made in France
respecting the distressed condltisl of the French farmer. He
likewise believed that the great distress alleged to be suf-
fered by the British millowners Vas disproved by the success
of the mill recently erected at Ittersea, and by the mimes 1
rous new mills now in course ,s construction in different
parts of the country. The Noble: Earl had suggested that
flour should be immediately p'hfected by
a duty, which
would enable the miller to eetlithaue his operations. He
(Lord Granville) was not dispeled to underrate the very
dangerous commercial, political, anisocial consequences which
he believed would result if the Lesialature determined to re-
vert to the system of protective import duties upon grain ; but
he must say he thought such a 'measure would be infinitely
more defensible than to afford pr4ction to the millers be-
cause a portion of that body wertinvolved in some distress
in consequence of the altered claimatances of their re-
spective lecalities. The Noble Earthed said that this ques-
tion would be brought forward again and he could only say
that, if a definite . proposition were submitted to the House,
his Noble Friends behind him would'be quite ready to dis-
cuss it. _. eti 11!,
The Earl of MALMESBURY said 'e had taken some pains
about a fortnight ago to ascertain' this.real state of the agri-
cultural body in France, and he hail been informed that
during the year 1850 the amount ofaigricultural produce—
wheat, wheaten flour, and barley—.exported from France to
this country was equal in value (as :we understood) to some
2,000,000/. beyond the ordinary exports. It was clear, then,
that France could not only feed her own people, but had a
surplus of food to spare; and it could not, therefore, be
maintained that the agricultural body. hi France were in a
similar condition to the agriculturists of this country. If the
French exported at a loss, was it conceivable that their ex-
ports would have increased in three
years from 216,000
quarters to 595,000 quarters? Noble Lords opposite had
publicly lamented the distress of the 'agricultural interest;
the Noble Earl (Granville; had aoknowledged that distress
existed among the millers; but yet these Noble Lords had
not made the slightest attempt to relieve that distress.
The Earl of HARDWICKE considered it a striking fact
that there was not one interest which came before either
House of Parliament that was not in a depressed condition.
The distress of the agricultural interest had been acknow-
ledged in the Speech from the Throne; and now the millers,
freetraders themselves, had turned round and were calling
upon Parliament for protection.... It was said that these
petitioners were millers who were in a small way at business.
but very recently a miller of Wakefield, who fed 200,000
people from his mill, had written to Mr. Cobden, as his re-
presentative, begging him to change his views on the sub-
ject of free trade. What, too, was the condition of the ship-
A USEFUL DOG.—A well-dre-sed young woman, Ping interest, and what was the character of the daily and
on Saturday, entered a restaurant not far from the terminus weekly reports of trade from Manchester ?He might remind
of the Orleans Railway, and told the waiter to bring her in their Lordships that Ireland was no longer a floutishing ex-
all haste a basin of soup, as she was about to take her di.. porting country, as it was previously to 1845, but that it was
parture by the next train. This was immediately done; now a large importing country.
and after having taken it, and paid the waiter, she was ' The Marquis of CLANRICARDE observed, that if ~ Noble
hurrying away, saying that she should certainly be late, Lords opposite thought proper to bring the state of Isolate; d
when she perceived her passage barred by a large dog under discussion, he thought his Noble Friends would bea le
which refused to let her pass. She attempted by caresses to show that the various interests of that country were
.nos
to put it aside, but the animal held firm, and opposed her in the distressed condition that had been represented. The
way. " I shall certainly be late!" cried she. "Do take whole question of protection and free trade was raised bybe
the
away that horrible dog!' The waiter and the master cried suggestion of the Noble Earl, that an import duty
not enter. should
out, " Vidocq, Vidocq I give way sir," but the dog never imposed upon flour, and into that subject he would
referred tO
stirred. . One of the waiters here whispered something to He might say, however, as the Noble Earl had
_t
was
un
the master, who, coming up to the young woman, said "If the number of paupers in Ireland, that althoughi
the west of
-my dog prevents you leaving the premises, the reason must fortunately too true that the workhouses iis
Noble Earl
be that you have some of the property belonging to the Ireland were extremely full, he would ask the,ag
wo..
as
of
house about yen. You had better give it up a': once, and go what would be the condition of the ratepayertsi,av_ , it
having food at
your way." The person thus addressed at first affected great the paupers in those unions, if,. instead of
obtained, protec-
indignation at being so addressed, but at last drew out a silver the reasonable price at which it was now
the
price of food
spoon, which she handed to the (saner of the restaurant. tive duties were imposed which rendered
confidently as to the
The dog then allowed her to pass, and she was hurryigg off high ?—(Hear, hear.) He could speak
'
when she was seised by her mantelet, and forced to atop. This opinion of the Poor-law guardians, and he had not met
time it was a police agent, who had been on the look-out for with a single guardian in Ireland
~ who was not so tar an ad-
several persons smpected of being concerned iu a robbery, and vacate of free trade as to say, I
f we tied not at this time
who,
who, it was thought, might attempt to get off by the railway, cheap food, it would be utterlyimpossible for us to support
n
She was arrested, and on examination her mantelet was our paupers." He believed thatersons had suffered so
p
found to be furnished with immense pockets for receiving pil- much from the removal of protective
duties as theinillers in
fered goods. It is said that this is not the first time that the the south and west of Ireland, but the question raised by
of great importance; and
dog, belonging to the restaurateur, has shown himself a faith- the Noble Earl (Glengall)was one
Irish millers could nos con-
unfortunately the case of the .
ful guardian ot'his master's property. Galignani's Messenger.
andwithout reference to
sidered in an isolated point of view,
THE ROTATION OF Ting E kRTH•—The Rev. Mr • •
, . • •
.his other interests et the country.
idongieuir made a partially successful attempt in own After a few words in re ply from the Earl of GLENGALL,
church on Tuesday, but at a public experiment on Wednes- The Duke of ARGYL observed, that there was an im-
to
in
day, the confusion of the assembled savans, his machine mense pressure upon Glasgow, and other large towns '
*ndicated t
! hat the earth was turning the wrong way. The
Scotland, in consequence of the influx of Irish paupers.
fault, of course, lay with the construction of his apparatus,' The parochial officers were frequently obliged to give,them
omrntrbee currents of air in the loom. Further attempts were half-a-crown a-piece to sen i them hack to Ireland—( A laugh)
been aconducted
,i,,, .1 th An experiment at Spring-garden has and he hoped that no more half-crown paupers would be
greats care. A 5,4 b. ball has been ens- sent over from Ireland. . .
pended by a fine bras. wire 28 feet long, and the joint or The Earl of LUCAN was sure his Noble Friend (the_ Earl
pivot at the top is an accurately prepared all and socket of Glengall) had never intended to say that it was the prac-
one whichof
, course moves with e l 1•
in all direct lice to send over paupers from Ireland.—(Laughter.) He
tiens. The ball, which has qua . silty
a draw point proecting from it had, during the last ten years, resided in that country for a
below, was made to traverse
a
i circular table of six feet dia- considerable part of every year, and at no former period was
meter, and it invariable t
Much difficulty was experieenteddi in
the
proper direction. there anything at all equal to the amount of distress at pro-
gnitttintghitheball to swing sent existing there. At no period was the cultivation of
in a mathematically accurate planne obstacle having land in Ireland so totally neglected as at this moment, es.
been overcome, the revolution of the table, f
and of course o 1 peciall he Mayo and Galway, and he therefore thought it
the world, under the pendulum,
Flusher
expeamuto
ire w be
jua
.e. became quite apparent. wgtS, if
_might use the expreseieu without effeuce, telembly
0 Akrcleen liernkr.

Mr. Monk, the barrister, who appeared for the com-
pany, said he thought 12 scone an immoderate estimate.
Captain Latfin said there might be 8 scone people in
the train, and they would go against the people of 16
stone. The train was crowded, and he thought a lower
average could not be taken. The weight of 936 passen-
gers, et 12 stone each, would be 70 tons, but he found
only 48 in the carriages, a difference of 22 tons. -
Mr. Brown. solicitor, said that 10 stone, and not 12,
was the weight named as an average.
Mr. Monk said he certainly should have spoken
against such an average as 12 stone at the time if he had
heard it named.
The Foreman of the jury, Dr. Wilson, conceived that
11 stone was nearer an average.
There was some further conversation, all turning upon
the point of how the weight could be ascertained; one
person suggested that the area of each carriage might be
taken, and the number of persons who could stand on it,
and their weight. Another suggestion was that a car-
riage should be filled and weighed, empty and full, and
that seemed to receive the sanction of the parties inte-
rested. Captain Laffan showed how he had ascertained
the weight of dead metal in the train, still going on Mr.
Bragge s &ores, and remsrked that Mr. Norris had ar-
rived, by a separate calculation, at within half a ton of
the same weight as himself.
The jury broke up with the understanding that the
engine was to be tested on Monday (this morning), with
the full calculated weight.
It is but justice to Mr. Brugge to say that his calcu-
lation of weight did not accord with Captain Latrines.

THE ESTATE STEALING MORTGAGE SYSTEM.
Attention is directed to the estate stealing mortgage
system, practised by persons of apparent respectability
pretending to assist the owners of estates with advances.
In builoing transactions the cases have been of common
occurrence, ois account of t',e high rate of interest, large
margin of value, and opportunities for disputing every
advance required as the works proceed.
In many other cases; examination of titles and sur-
veys of property, are charged for without the slighteit
intention of making advances, and abstracts or other im-
portant docuwents detained until extortionate charges
are paid.
The most effectual remedy against such frauds will be
a register of cases, and the names of parties engaged in
concocting them,aud mortgagors should become members
of protection societies to ascertain who may be safely
trusted in such important negotiations. Respectable so-
licitors and honourable agents will also derive advantage
by being distinguished from the disreputable.
The want of public attention to this description of
fraud has been the cause of depriving thousauds of
widows and orphans of property ample fur their support
if it had been fairly protected.
The abuses under the foreclosing system in the Court
of Chancery, facilitate. the frauds in many cases, instead
of protecting mortgagors ey public sales in the way cal-
culated to obtain the best tliees, or granting reasonable
time for redemption, according to circumstances.
The estate stealing - mortgage system is in principle
similar to bill stealing, but carried on by a more wealthy
class of practitioners.

UNIVERSITY INTELLIGENCE.
OXFORD, MAY 10.— MERTON COLLEGE.—An election
of three Postmasters will take place on Friday, June
20. Candidates are desired to call on the Warden on
Monday, June 16, with testimonials of gocd condUct and
certificates of baptism. In' the election to one Poet-
mastership, a preference will be given to attainments in
.mathematics. No candidate will be admitted tinder 17
or above 19 years of age.
QUEEN'S COLLEGE.—There will bo an election of an
Exhibitioner on the Michel FoundAtion at Queen's Col-
lege, on Thursday, the 19th of June next. Candidates
must be natives of the province, of Canterbury, who
have attained the full age of 15, and nut exceeded the
age of 20 years; and, if member' of the University,
must not have been matriculated more than 12 calendar
months. At the same time there will be an election of
two Exhibitioners on the foundation of Sir Francis
Bridgman. Candidates to be natives of Lancashire,
Cheshire, or Witte. Certificates of baptisierffid the
usual testimonials of good conduct from their school or
college are to be presented by the candidates to the
Provost on Saturday, the 14th of June. The examina-
tion will commence on Montly, the 16th, at 10 P.M.
BEASENOSE COLLEGE. -- Messrs. Turner, Bethel],
Keating, and Kenyon, of Lincoln's Inn, have given it as
their opinion, in reply to the " case" submitted to them
by the pricipal and scholars of Brasenose College, " that'
the Commission of the 31st of August. 1850, is :not,
as respects Brasenose College, constitutional or legal,
and that it is not such as the college or its members are
bound to obey; and that the Commission cannot be sup-
ported by any prerogative or other right in the Crown."
UNIVERSITY BOAT Beene—The University host
races will-commence on Monday, the 19.6 inst., and be
Continued on the following dares:—Tuesday. the 20th;
Thursday, the 22d; Saturday, the 24th; Monday, the
26th; Tuesday, the 27th; Thursday, the 29th;•
and
Friday, the 30th.

would have been well sifted, and Members been enabled
to make those inquiries and obtain that information which
they (teemed necessary. The Bill not only affected
the temporalities of religion, but the most vital and es-
sential parts of religion itself, and if it passed, it would
be impossible for a Roman Catholic bishop to be or-
dained consistently with the law of the land, and unless
that ceremony took place, he could not be considered
as one of the spiritual heads of the Church. He,
therefore, called on the Speaker and the House, in com-
pliance with the standing order, to discharge the Bill.
Sir G. GREY said he would not enter into the ex-
pediency of introducing the Bill in Committee, because
that was not the real question before the House, but he
might observe that the advantages mentioned by the
lion. Gentleman were perfectly imaginary. His Right
Hon. Friend (Lord J. Russell) would not have been
compelled to detail more minutely the provisions of the
Bill in Committee than when he first introduced the
Bill to the House.—(Hear, hear.) The Honour-
able Gentleman had stated that the standing
order was made in 1773 in consequence of a Bill intro-
duced into the Rouse, and ultimately objected to by the
bishops. Now it 9J happened that the standing
order was made in April, 1772, some mouths
previous to that Bill being brought forwurd.
Titers was also a similar standing order at the same time
relative to Bids effswing trade, and these two tee nor
new orders, but merely the separation of one teeter which
was made in 1703, into two. The standing ordsr, tnere-
fore, had certainly existed long before the Bill mentioned
by the lion. Gentleman was introduced. The teal question
was, whether the present Bill fell within the meaning of the
standing order. If the lion. Gentleman had succeeded
in showing that it did, he was willing to admit that rio
objection could be taken to the course which the Hon.
Gentleman had pursued. But how did he purpose to
shiny this? First, by quoting a letter written to the
Rig ht Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon
before the Bill was introduced, which relied
mainly for its line of argument upon the word " acts" to
be done by any bishop, which word, in fact, was not to
be found in the Bill as it stood at present. The same
was the case with the Hon. Gentleman's Own argu-
ment, which rested mainly on the use of the word "acts,"
weich was omitted from the Bill. The Hen. Gentlemen
said, moreover, that, if this Bill passed the Archeishop
of Dublin would be uitable to exercise the spiritual
duties which he now exercised. If such were
the case he would remind the Hon. Gentleman and the
House that such had been the case ever since 1829, be.
cause that title had been prohibited by law ever shice
that time. Again. he would remind the Hon. Gentle.
man that in 1831 a Bill was passed to legalise marriages
among Rowan Catholics. New marrtege was a solemn
sacrament of religion among Roman Catholics, and the
Bill was introduced into the House without the prelimi-
nary form.
Mr. ROEBUCK was of opinion that this was a
question affecting religion, and as such came under the
meaning of the standing older. At the present moment
Roman Catholic priests were not prohibited from taking
titles of sees which were not already appropriated by
bishops of the Established Church, and a person bear-
ing the title of Bishop of Westminster could receive be-
quests to be applied to the benefit of his own religion.
lf, however, it passed he would not be
able to do so, and for that season he con-
sidered this was a Bill which interfered with
religion, and the Noble Lord himself had acknowledged
that by proposing to extract certain clauses from the
Bill, and had thus put himself out of court.
The SPEAKER said, having been appealed to
by two Honourable Members to state what his
opinion upon this matter was, perhaps the House would
allow him to do so as shortly as he could. There
was uo authority founded upon any decision of the
House for determining what was meant by the phrase
" Bills relating to religion," but having looked closely
into the reports of Bills which had passed the House
which bore upon matters of religion he thought
it was not necessary to pass a Bill through a
Committee of the whole House, unless the
BHA related to the spirituelities of religion. True,
the Church Temporalities Act went through Com-
mittee, as had been stated by au Hon. Member, but to
show that it was not because it related to religion that it
was carried into Committee, he might mention that
thole was no allusion made to the standing order now
uuder discussion, and the Bill passed through just as
though it had been a money Bill. Then come the Bill
for carrying into effsct the report of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners. That was riot introduced in a Commit-
tee of the whole House, because it was supposed to re-
late to temporai and not spiritual matters, and for pre-
cisely the same reason the Irish Marriage Act did
not go through a preliminary Committee. Under
all those circumstance, he was of opinion that the Bill
now before the House was not one which it was neces-
sary to introduce into Committee of the whole House.
—(Hear, hear.) He was consulted upon this sub-
ject in the first instance without, of course,
being made acquainted with the whole of its
provisions, and he gave the same opinion then; and
having since carefully considered the Bill, he saw no
reason whatever to change that opinion.
Mr. MILNER, GIBSON said it appeared to him that
the opinion of the Speaker went upon the assumption
that this Bill interfered with religion no further than did
those Bills which the Right Hon. Gentleman had re-
ferred to; but that assumption was decidedly erroneous.
He had considerable doubts whether, looking at the pro-
visions of the Bill, it was not a measure altering
the laws concerning religion, and imposing pains
and penalties on a portion of the people. Though
he bowed with deferecce to the opinion of
the Speaker, yet until they had submitted
to him a proper case for his cons deration,
be thought they ought nut to abide by the Opinion which
he had just given to the House.— (Hear.) He would
suggest That they should take the same course which was
aeopted with the lash Temparalitits Bill, and appoint
a Select Committee to examine into prrci deets, and re-
port whether, according to the orders arid rules of the
House, the Bill should have peso introduced in a Com-
mittee of the whole House.—(Hear.)
Mr. GHAT I'AN said it was absurd to suppose that
this was a measure which did not atisct the religion ui
his fellow-countrymen. It was a mockery, an insult,
and an attempt to play upon words for the Noble Lore
at the head of the Government to make such an
assertion. lied they not for the last hew menthe
heel, tamest entirely occupied in discussing reli-
gious subjects ? The ferment which the Bill
had already given rise te, and was likely
to increase, would make the Ministers regret to the last
day of their lives that they had passed such a m"asure.
They had neither the coureee, determination, or mind
to get Ireland out of the ciffieulties in which their lose-
'slice sue overbearing lauguage had placed her. It the
Bill were passed, the House would not only be made the
laughieg-steck of the three kingdoms, but of the world.
Mr. REYNOLDS moved that the debate be now WI.
.ourned, in urutr to afford time to inquire into prece,

audacious on the part of any Noble Lord on the Ministerial
bench to seek a sort of triumph in the present state of Ire-
land. The Noble Marquis (Clanricarde) had said he never
heard any guardians in that country speak in favour of pro-
tection. He (the Earl of Lucan) was a member of four
boards of guardians in Ireland, and three-fourths of the
guardians, if not the whole of them, were Protectionists.
He never heard the guardians congratulate themselves upon
cheap food, but he had often heard them lament that
wretched paupers sere driven to the workhouse in conse-
quence of agricultural labourers deserting their wives and
children.
After a few words in explanation from the Marquis of
CLANRICARDE, the subject dropped.
CHURCH BUILDINGS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
On the order of the day being read for going into Com-
mittee on this Bill,
Lord PORPMAN said he considered some of the provisions
of the measure very objectionable. It would affect the rights
of some 300,000 persons who now had free seats in churches,
which had been erected by private subscriptions or by Cnurch
Building Societies, by giving power to the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners to let one. half of those sittings, in order to es-
tablish a fund for the payment of the ministers. He believed
that some of the clauses would contravene the statutes of
mortmain. The Bill provided that the right of patronage
should be vested in those p irties who subscribed not less than
501. to the building of a church ; but why were persons who
could not contribute such large sums to be deprived of a
voice in the appointment of the ministers? He also objected
to the clause which gave the right of nomination to any new
church built in a-, extra-parr cbial place to the bishop, in-
stead of leaving it with the subscribers. He suggested, as
the Bill was not a common-place one, but of high importance,
well deserving the attention of the House, that it should be
referred to a Select Committee.

The Bishop of LONDON said, the Bill had been prepared
with the view of providing additional ch.rch accornmo,la-
Lion. The popular cry now was that the Church should find
the means within herself of extending her borders, aid one
of the most legitimate modes of doing so appeared to be
from pew-rents. The Church Building Commissioners had
found that in many cases where they had set apart a larger
number of free seats for the poor than they had thought fit
to avail themselves of it would be desirable, and it had
been so represented to them, to let those seats at reduced
rents. He had no objection to the Bill's going before a Select
Committee.
• Lord STANLEY did not doubt the goodness of the object
for which the Bill had been proposed, nor was he disposed to
say that in some cases the number of free , seats might not
be curtailed ; but, in cases where persons had given large
sums of money towards the building of a church, with the
view of affording gratuitous accommodation to the poor, he
thought it would be not only inexpedient in point of policy,
but a breach of faith also, by ex post facto legislation to im-
pose a charge upon those seats. at the discretion of the Com-
missioners. He objected, therefore, to that ex post facto
legislation. There was another point, also, which be thought
deserving attention. It might be, under the Bill, in places
where the parochial accommodation was amply sufficient,
if s,ctarian feeling ran high, that the building of a church
in the same neighbourhood might be authorised with the
♦iew of serving sectarian purposes alone. This was by no
means an imaginary case, and he feared that it might not
be a peculiar one.
The Bishop of OXFORD observed, that it would not be
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, but the Church Building
Commissioners, who would have the power of charging pew.
rents.

The Earl of CARLISLE said, the Bill was founded upon
a report which had been made by a Commission a few years
ago. The Commission, composed of gentlemen of different
views, were unanimous in recommending it. It hat been
circulated largely among the clergy, who were generally in
favour of it, and the Government also approved of the
Bill as a well-conceived measure for promoting church ex-
tention within the pale of the Church itself. He believed
that very good and cogent reasons could be shown for the
provision for raising pew-rents, but it might be a question
whether some means for obtaining the consent of the parish
beforehand would not be a useful addition to the Bill. That
was a matter, however, which would, no doubt, engage the
atteLtion of the Select Committee.
The Bill was ordered to be referred to a Select Com-
mittee, and the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 12.
The SPEAKER took Ihe Chair at Four o'clock.
4 The Lord:.' amendments to the Hartlepool Fventen's
tem& and Harbour Dues Bill were considered and
agreed to.

SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were then read a second timc:—
Btighton Extramural Corsetery; King's College flo*-
phut (No. 2); and Christchurch (Southwark) Pariah
Bills.

PETITIONS.
A great uturater of petitions were presented against
he Pape! aggression.
Mr. ORD presented a petition from Fife against the
Prisons' (Scotland) Bill.
Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a petition from
Preston against the continuance of the Regium Donum.
Colonel SIBTHORP presented a petition from Lin-
coln, complaiming of agricultural distress.
Colonel SALWEY presented a petition from Welling-
ton preying for electoral reform.
Mr. ROBERT PALMER. presented 'a petition from
Berkshire against the Jew Bill.
Mr. W. PATTEN presented a petition from the
board of guardians at Preston praying for extended
powers to raise loans for the relief of the poor.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Paddington,
agaiust the proposed encroachment on Kensington-
gardens.
Sir G. GREY presented a petition from Northumber-
land, praying for a modification of the taxes on carriages.
NEW WRIT.
Major BERESFORD moved for a new writ for the
Isle of Wight in the place of Mr. Simeon.
RAJA BROOKE.
Mr. B. COCHRANE asked Mr. flume when he pro-
posed to bring forward his motion relative to Raja
Brooke? He supposed now that Sir James Brooke heel
'tome ro England, the Hen. Member wits afraid to bring
it on.—(lTear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said, so far from that being the case, he
had teen waiting the arrival of the neje, and it Govern-
ment would only give him the day after to-morrow. the
Hon. Gentlemen should see whether he was afraid to
bring the motion en or net.
MONEY-ORDER OFFICE.
Mr. J. WILLI.AMS gave notice of his intention to
put a question to the Secretary of the Trea,ury to-mere
row on the subject of the money-order department of the
General Post-office.
PUSEYISM IN THE CHURCH.
Sir B. HALL asked the Prime Minister what .strtps
the archbishops and bishops of the Established Cirti,ce
had taken in pursuauce of the letter addressed by the
Secretary of State to the Archbishop of Canterbury, by
command of her Majesty, for the purpose of suppressing
certain practices in planes of wore hip belonging to the
Established Church; and whether the Bishop of Londoe,
had taken, or was about to take, any legal proceedings
against any of the clergy who sanctioned what his Lord-
ship calls "histrionic performances," in the churches
within his diocese.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was not in a position to
state what steps bad been taken with respect to the
matter alluded to by the lion. Baronet. and strongly
deprecated the incoeverelence which would arise from
eekieg such questions in the House.
NEW RIDE IN KENSINGTON-GARDENS.
Mr.H.UME intimated that he would bring the subject
as to the proposed new ride in Kensington-gardens
before the House to-morrow.
EXTENt,ION OF THE FRANCHISE.
Mr. T. BUNCOMBE gave notice of a motion for
next eeseion with respect to the extension of the
franchise.

lence.

Mr. HUME was quite ready to consent to the ad-
,ournmeot of the debate.
Mr. KEOGH contended that the Bill affected.the spi-
ritualizes of the Roman Catholic Church, and read the
written opinion of Sir F. Kelly, Mr. Brodie, convey-
ancer, and Mr. Badaeley, stating that the Bill would ren-
der it illegal for any archbishop or bieoop of the Roman
Catholic Church to exercise their official functions in
this country, though they might be merely of a spiritual
no tore.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL apprehended, that the first
thing that would strike any individual when considering
the history of the standing orders in question, was that the
sense in which the word "religion" was used in that order
was one concerning matters of taith and doctrine, and net
mere matters of ecclesiastical management, superintendence,
or jurisdiction. The question then was, whether this Bill
did in any way affect faith or doctrine, or in any manner
concern spiritualities of any description. The Roman Catho-
lic Archbishop of Dublin, indeed said, that if the Bill passed
he should not be able to ordain a priest or administer the
sacrament of confirmation. Was it intended, then, to be
said that from the year 18e9 to the present moment there
bad been no ordination and no sacrament of confirmation
performed by any Roman Catholic archbishop or bishop in
Ireland, except by the Bishop of Galway, whose see had
been created since 1829, or by the Archbishop of Tuam,
there being no Pro` estant archbishop of that title? If the
argument of the Hon. and Learned Member for Mayo were
right, such must have been the case, because the provisions
of the present Bill were precisely similar to those contained
in the Bill of 1829. He apprehended there was not a Member
in the House who would tell him that a Boman Catholic
bishop could, not ordain a priest unless he were a bishop of
some particular diocese—or that Dr. Wiseman could not
have exercised his spiritual functions as well when be was
Bishop of Melipotamus as he could when Archbishop of
Westminster. The real meaning of Dr. Murray's statement
was this:—" There are certain temporal advantages to the
person ordained by me as Archbishop of Dublin which he
would not possess if he were ordained by me under any other
title." But that was clearly out of the precincts of religion.
It dealt with temporalities merely. Reference had been
made to an opinion of Mr. Willes, but how did that opinion
commence? The Learned Counsel said, "I am instructed
that the Archbishop cannot ordain or do so and so unless it
be under the title of Archbishop of Dublin ; and, if I am
correctly instructed, then the Bill will have such and su
an effect." Now, in the first place, if the Learned Con sel
were truly instructed, then the Roman Catholic Archbishop
of Dublin and all the Catholic bishops of Ireland must have
been under an interdict for the last 22 years. Wes such a
statement made to the Leaned Counsel ? He (the Solicitor-
General) would venture to say that nothing of the kind was
ever hinted at; nor would any one very seriously
contend that a Roman Catholic bishop's ; ,
spaituat
functions depended upon the title which he as.
sinned. But it was dangerous to act upon the ()pinion
of counsel without knowing the statement lid before
him. lie would rather trust to the opinion given by the
Right Hon. Gentleman ha the chair, who formellutissej,uclbgut-
ment not only from the standing orders of the
from the clauses of the Bill which formed the subject matter
to ,vhich those orders applied. He had ne doubt Mr. Speaker
had arrived at a right conclusion on this. question. The
Right Hon. Member for Manchester (dspeaking ad invidiain)
said that when they were removing itshlabitliivtiheesntthheeyHwouersee
went into a preliminary Committee, but
, imposing disabilities they did not
into Committee. But the Right II think it necessary to go
perfectly aware of the reason on. Gentleman must be
Committee oil the Catholic Reliefwhy the House went into
for altering au oath. There was a
Bill. That was a measure
deserved the considerationwas of the House. Looking at the
made, and when the word "reli-
gion" was used, he having
by the word "reli • in tbe first place contended that
would now ask _but was meant " faith and doctrine," he
zit what faith and doctrine? Was it not
perfectly clear that
it meant the faith and doctrine of the Es-
tablished Church ? The order meant that ties House should
not tamper with the established religion, nor alter its doe-trines, without first
having the sanction ofofa Committee
the whole House. No lawyer, on reading this Bill, would say
that it meant to effect a changein the doctrine or internal
economy of the Roman Catholic religion ; and to say that
the Bill would alter or affect the established religion would
be absurd. The whole question was whether the Bill
touched dpiritualities. Looking at the Bill in every point of
view, he was of opinion that it did not affect religion, nor
touch any spiritual function of the Roman Catholic Church.
If he depended on precedents he might rensr to many ; for
instance, the Church Temporalities Act, the Tithes Commu-
tation Act, the Vestries Bill, the Curates Bill; these and
other BIIIBIIEI been palled .71tbout any preliminary refer-

ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL.
On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. MOORE rose to move that the standing order,
which requires that Bills concerning religion should be
first considered in a Committee of the whole House, be
read, and that the order for the Committee on Eccle-
siastical Titles Assumption Bill be discharged. The
reason of this motion was, be said, drawn from
the standing order of the House. which
declared that all Bills relating to religion or
any alteration proposed iu the laws on this point should
originate in a Committee of the whole House. Mr. May,
a high authority in these matters, had said that this
order bad always been construed as applying to religion,
and not to the temporalities of religious bodies, and it was
on this ground that the Roman Catholic Relief Bill had
been considered first in a Committee of the whole House
and afterwards the Church Temporalities 'Oland Bill
had been brought in without that preliminary step. He
was quite willing to admit, if the Bill were to be regarded
only with reference to its first motive, or if the amend-
ments of the Government were to restore it to a mere
temporal measure, that his objection would at once fall
to the ground, but his objection was against the Bill as
first introduced, and he thought it was not necessary
for hith to argue before any lawyer or educated
gentleman of that House that ordination and
the administration of sacraments were not
mere temporal incidents, but essentially spiritual.
He quoted a letter from Archbishop Murray, in which
thct Rev. Prelate stated that be could not perform his
ecclesiastical functions except in his character of arch-
bishop, and then the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to ob-
serve that the letter containing that opinion produced
such an effect upon the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government, that, with a spirit of liberality which re-
called the incidents of the Noble Lord's early career, he
consented to make a material alteration in the Bill. Now,
assuming the opinion of Dr. Murray, and the admission of
the Government that followed, to be correct, how could
any one pretend to say that the Bill related only to tem-
poralities, and would in no way interfere with reli-
gion ? But it might be said that Dr. Murray wt.,
no lawyer, and therefore his opinion could me he held to be conclusive. Well, in order to meet that
objection, a case had been submitted to Mr. Willes, of
the Inner Temple, one of the Commissioners appointed
to inquire into the best means of amending the law
on this. very subject, and he had given it
as his opinion, which had since been confirmed by Sir
Fitzroy Kelly and Mr. Bsddeley, that this Bill, if it
passed into a law, would place the duty of Dr. Murray,
as -an archbishop of his Church, in direct
couflict with his duty as a subject of the
Queen. It might, however, also be objected
that the effect of the Bill was only constructive
and not direct; but though he was not
lawyer enough
to decide between the two he was sufficiently learned
to perceive that the effect of the Bill upon the
Catholic Church would be to prevent the exercise
of religious functions, and hence the effect must
not he constructive but direct.—(Hear, bear.) The
standing order to which he referred was made in 1773,
on the occasion of a Bill being introduced into the House
of Commons for the relief of Protestant Dissenters.
When that Bill went up to the House of Lords,
several of the bishops objected to it on the ground
that
it was improperly entitled, and it
was consequently negatived. After the
rejection of the
Bill, this standing order was passed, in order in future
to guard against Bills being introduced into Parliament
clandestinely, with a title altogether different from the
real nature of the provisions they contained. And if
ever there was a Bill which showed the wisdom of
this enactment, or to what it was intended to apply, it
was the present one. He considered if the Bill had been
brought forward in Committee its whole proisiow

ence to a Committee of the whole Home; he, therefore,
thought that if the House were to yield to the argument
which had been urged on this occasion, it would completely
stultify itself; and at the same time be acting in direct oppo-
sition to the whole current of precedents.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought the present discussion would
have one useful result, in showing that the precedents on
this important questiou were in a state that was most unsa-
tisfactory. Therefore, although that might not he a salts
cient reason for interferring with the progress of the Bill, yet
he thought it was most desirable that some rule should be
laid down for their future guidance, in order that an uni-
formity of practice might prevail in a matter of no incon::l
derable importance. The Solicitor-General had argued the
question with great fairness. The two main questions, a,,
s
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has! stated were—first,
whether the word " religion" in the standing order includeelide,
any religion except the established religion? and, if
then, secondly, whether, there being the Roman Citatho-
lic religion in this country, it could be said that its
spiritualities were touched by thee Bill or not? It
ap-
peared to him (Mr. Gladstone) that the Solicitor-General
was perfectly right in saying that the proper mennin_g,u
the standing order was, that it regarded not religion
'n
't
general, but the established religion of the country. If
were so, what was the course which precedent pointed to for
the House to follow? There was, he feared, no "n":uld
or uniform precedent. The precedent of 1772
lead to the inference that Bills which tended to effe:rotil
t
securities of the established religion ought to'pass
preliminary Committees. It was true the Act of 171! fur
,„,,
the relief of the Roman Cet holies was passed without, ""b'
through any such Committee, but then there were carious
precedents the w her way. There was the Act of 18),8 et off
f
the repeal of the Corporation and Test Acts, the 1";
...A
1829, for the Emancipation of the Rumen Cetholicatre
several other Bills, all of which were introaeice7
through the medium of a Committee. The Solici-
tor-General tor-General had said that the reason those Bills they
eo/lived to an intermediate Committee was, that they
altered an eath. He (Mr. Gladstone) did not
circumstance was alone sufficient to account for thetliphrj
a to
He was of opinion that the standing order was intended
protect the established religion ; and that whenever P
ment dealt with the securities which the established
dealing
li-
gion posse-serf, whether good or bad, the Bills so de.ree:
with them must pass through a preliminary CoreM3
A tileat
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman had also said ea
the meaning of the standing order was that Parl4ll:eat
should not tamper with the established religion; buet
when measures were to be passed for strengthening th
rities of that religion then it was not necessary for such (lithe
sure to go through a preliminary Committee. ish
Gladstone) believed that that argument contained the Pe to
aec.ce.
and gist of the whole matter, that that was the doctlito,
be exrracted from the whole heap of precedents before t r
and that Bills which injuriously affected, weakened'ab°t
diminished the securities of the Eetablishea Church,
to pass through a preliminary Committee; but that
which purported to strengthen those securities did not ter
quire to go through that preliminary stsge. Looking, ityhe
ever, at the preamble of the present Bill, he confesserttest,
thought that rule ought to be applied both ways.—(3bue
hear.) This Bill was not like one for repealing a tax; was
it was a measure which, while giving to one party,
too
taking away from another; while it tended to gee" ees
the Church of England, it took from the Roman cath°,,„
that which they would otherwise enjoy. The question ht j
one involved in considerable difficulties; and he thougii, or
would be wise, whether with reference to the present 131 of
to the future course of legislation, to appoint a Coninlittetive
inquiry in order to fix upon some clear and authorifs the
construction of this important standing order, so that led
practice of the House, which had been hitherto confused !es•
unintelligible, might be made clear, practical, and intelligleepi t
Mr. SADLEIR thought the very showing of Governror
in their speeches proved the Bill bad reference to the Pests
blished Church. Indeed, he believed the Bill went fn't, Ass
than was ever contemplated by the restrictive clauses 01 ""
Act of 1829.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but after 0
short iuterval the door was re-opened, and we found t),
Lord J. RUSSELL, addressing the House. He ers,eos,
serving there was no ground for further delay on the snutthe
The instances of the Corporation and Test Acts and °he
relief of Roman Catholic disabilities, quoted by the
Hon. Member (Mr. Gladetone), referred to suposed sec
ties for the religion of the country, and those precedents
not apply to the present case. He did not believe a Select
Committee could do anything more than leave the questltea
to the discretion of the House.
Mr. BRIGHT' recollected that the Noble Lord had eti;l3i
drawn clauses from the Bill, on the ground that they affgc`'.
the spiritualities of the Roman Catholic faith, and theefor
tee Bill came within the undoubted practice of the flellsen'ts
The Noble Lord invited the House to inflict an injury °n
8,000,000 or 10,000,000 inhabitants of the United liipg"„"li
and to pass over certain rules which the Established ChilTe
had insisted on for its own security. The Roman Catholic
population stood before the House in precisely the same rele;
tion as the members of the Established Church, and t
h
Noble Lord ought to have been more careful, when tee'es!
away their rights, to proceed with the utmost caution th
if lie were engaged on a matter which would affect the poise'
of of the dominant church. It would be only fair, in order to
satisfy the Roman Catholics to refer the questionto a 'elect
t
Committee, when they would see the house proceed with
as much care and delicacy in their case as in that of the lA-
tahlished Church.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion of adjournment .. 53
Against it .. 179
Majority for going on with the debate---126
On returning to the gallery,
Mr. LAWLESS was speaking. He did not believe the
majority represented the sense of the House, but that the!,
represented the influence of the Government. He would
move that the House be adjourned.—(oh 1 oh!)
Mr. GRATTAN, as a Protestant Member, wished to Se'
cond the motion, and appealed to the Noble Lord not to prel.
the question as a inetter of good feeling.
Lon! J. RUSSELL said that he had seen in the majority
many lion. Members who had in general been opposed to his
Government, and that be had never seen a more attentive
House than had been present dining this debate. That the
House should now be celled on to adjourn made him suspect
Hon. Gentlemen had faltered it the resolution which it was
maid they had come to—not to make any factious opposition
to fbe Bill—a resolution which he had very much admired.
(Hear, and laughter.) They had heard the opinion te the
Speaker and or several Hon. Members well acquainted with
the forme of the House, and it there were any Irish Members
who thought they had a better opinion on points of order
than the Speaker and these Hon. Members, perhaps it would
be as well (or the House to hear it.
Mr. REYNOLDS disclaimed any intention of offering a
feclions opposition, but was not aware that any such rest)•
lution as the Noble Lord mentioned had been agreed upon.
Ile was afraid the Irish Members would disappoint the Noels
Lord in his anticipations of their polio cal politeness. W"ul
'.he Noble Lord consent to nominate a Select Committee, and
he ( Mr. Reynolds) would not object to the debate going eu
pars passe ?
Mr. KEOGH thought the Noble Lord had admitted it
might be desirable to examine into precedents, which wee
in effect allowing the propriety of a Committee. If he
granted the Committee, they would not oppose his proceed.
o
Mg with the Bill. The Speaker said the reason why tb
Order of the House did not apply was, that the Bill did not
affect the spiritualities of the Roman Catholic Church. The
Solicitor-General argued that the order did not apPle,becaues
it was intended to refer to the Protestant religion exclusiveli•
Surely such a difference of opLion was good ground for
Committee.
Sir G. GREY denied that his Noble Friend had expressedany opinion iu favour of a Committee. He had argued tha,
the queeticn was of a different nature from those which ha
°
been referred to.
Mr. ANSTEY was of opinion that the course the Reltlefi
Catholic Members were pursuing was not calculated to swell
the minority opposed to the Bill. He desired to separate
himself from them, because their object was evidently t°,
throw obstructions in the way of the House, and prevent le
from procee,ling with the Bill.
Mr. MOORE expressed his surprise that the Hon. lkfere'
ber, who had hitherto been the very personification of obstruc-
tion—who had spent one whole session in obstructing every'
thing—his own Bill among the rest—(A laugh)—should no
lecture others for following his example. Every Memberunconnected with the Government who had spoken in the
course of the debate admitted tee desirableness of appointing
a Committee. If the Noble Lord would consent to the ale:
;ointment of a Cenune tee, the motion for adjournment
would be at once withdrawn.
The House divided, when there appeared
For the adjournment ... 36
Against L. ... 145
Majority 109
The motion was then renewed for the Speaker leaving
the chair fer going into leiminietee on the Bill, upon which
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL rose to explain to the House
his reasons for opposing it, es he had not an opportunity
of doing so on the second reading. Ha considered that
the act of the Pope was not such as to have easel for
legislation on the pert of either House of Parliament.
Up to last autumn the Roman Catholics of England were
governed by a body of vicars apostolic, and those vicars
apostolic were the nominees of the Pope. The Bill before
the House had been met by a great display of opinion in the
country. That feeling spread through the length and
breadth of the land, mid the present attempt at legislation
was the result of a certain undefined wish on the part of
the people, that Parlhanent should do something, lie
k
could not, as some Hon. Gentlemen contended, look at that
;
movement as one emanating from the Church of England.
The excitement out of doors was merely proof of an anxiety
of feeling in the country that this House should interfere
in religious matters. Ile thought, however, that legisla-
tion
on this subject was altogether unnecessary. If the
Cheugh
es)! England were attacked, let it defend itself. If'
to
interfere,
presumed to claim temporal or civil
tathhuethtoinr:ipeiyooyer the Sovereign of these realms, then would be
taken on its ill:rite
refuse to aseist If
Mr.
and he would join inßoman Catholic would
lie should oppose the progress of the Bill,
every division that could be
tat uldturz eloscialogyeas:
URQULIAR I' said, that when he last addressed the
douse . he was virtually precluded from entering into any
question but that of the conduct of the Government. Since
_t • t period the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
had opened up a branch of the question which appeared to
of great importance, and upon which he wished to
ad-
dressa few considerations to the House. The Noble Lord
state- that the motive and object of the Papal Government
in the step it had lately taken had been not a religious but a
Political one o that the Government of the Pope, operated
upon by the Government of certain other European countries
who were alarmed at the greet influence which England
exercised on the Continent in favour of Liberalism and Con-
stitutional government, had been induced to take the step
in question for the purpese of setting England in a flame,
that, in short, the measure had a diplomatic origin. Nor
was the Noble Lord alone in this statement. Statements in
a similar strain (which he quoted) had been made by Lord
Clarenden, by the Hon. Member tor the University of Ox-
ford, by the Noble Lord the Member for Bath, and others-
The Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department bad
said the, it was impossible for us to meet the aggression by
diplomatic arrangement, because after the Pope had taken
so decided a course we should only expose ourselves by 50
doing to humiliation and defeat. The Master of the Rolls,
however, had used a very different argument. He said,
" How could we go to Rime after the introduction of the
clause into the Diplomatic Relations Bill which had offended
the Pope and vitiated the action of that measure?"—(Hear.)
The whole question had been placed in a faulty position by
the introduction of the topic of the law of nations; for
there were no treaty rights with respect to the Pope, and
unless the Pope had injured one of (i, citizens, infringed our
territory, or done some such act, that question could not
striae. In Armenia the same conduct had been pursued as in
England by the Pope, but there, as the matter was treated
centempt, the Roman Catholics protested against it.
It, however, the same course had been pursued in Armenia
as had been followed in Enoland, and if the people had been
told that by the act of the Pope the undivided sway of the
Sultan was in danger, probably
the whole body of the
Armenians would have exhibited the same servility as the
Roman Catholics here had shown to that potentate, the Pope.
The Hon. Member having reierred to the occupation of Rome
by the Fe end, and to the offer, as he observed, of the Czar
of Russia's treasury and arms for the Pope's aid, expressed
his conviction that some cause other than religious waa the