The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-22 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Auausr 21.

Mr. O'DWYER proposed to insert a clause, as Al
amendment, from the infamous manner in which it was
well known challenges were made by the Crown in many
cases, that no challenge of jurors should be made without
a cause being assigned for the same. The amendment,
however, was withdrawn, as were several others, without
a division ; and after several verbal amendments to various
clauses had been agreed to, the sehedule'vas agreed to
stand part of the Bill. The House then resumed, and
the Report was ordered en be brought up tomorrow.
A MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS

announced that their Lordships had given their concurrence
to the London Selvage and Package Bill, and to the
Uniformity of Process Bill, without amendments; and to
the Separatists' Affirmation Bill, with an amendment, to
which they desired the concurrence of the House.
Mr. DUBOIS brought up an account of the monies
expended by the Metropolitan Commissioners in Lunacy,
which was ordered to lie on the tsb!e.

TITHE ARREARS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. LITTLETON moved the order of the day for the
third re..ding of this Bill.
Mr. HUME wished to ask a question of the Right Hon.
Secretary which %you'd determine the course he should
take on this occasion. He wished to know whether if
payment was not made from the sources provided in this
Bill, there would be any objection to render Church pro-
perty liable?
Air. LITTLETON said he should most undoubtedly
obiect to a clause with such a provision.
Mr. HUME then announced his determination to move,
as an amendment, that the Bill he read a third time this
day six months. Notwithstanding all that had been said
by the Noble Lord and those who supported him, he (Mr.
Hume) could not see the le,tst probability of the money
being repaid to the British treasury. He could not get a
single Member from Ireland to say than there was the
slightest prospect of it. He asked, then, whether it was
not a fraud to pass a hill avowedly holding out security for
repayramt, when there was in feet none. This Bill was
objectionable ea nic,ny ;
the aronnd thrat it would support that establishment which
had hitherto b,en the cause in Ireland of almost all the evil
end Llieconterti that bad prevailed. The acts of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite with respect to tithes had failed,
and he hoped the present, and all other unconstitutional
acts would fail. He would recommend the Government
to accept the offer made by the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin, and reducing the Church Estabkliment
in Ireland, to the absolute want of Protestant inhabitants,
to levy the necessary amount then required upon the
landed proprietors.—(Hear.) As en honest man he did
not think the property in tithes should be lost, but he
thought the measure before the House only calculated to
perpetuate the evils of the system.
Mr. SINCLAIR seconded the amendment of the Hon.
Membrr for Middlesex.

Mr. O'CONNELL begged leave to offer his most beerty
thanks to the Ministry for the Bill ; he hailed it as the
commencement of pacification for Ireland. The Hon.
Member for Middlesex had not correctly qnoted what be
(Mr. O'Connell) had said on the subject of levying tithes
on the landlord. What he bad said was that he divided
the amount of tithes into three portions, as regarded
their operation on the payers, namely, the land-
lord, as owner of the land, the tenant's capital,
and the tenant's labour; and what he wished was
that neither the capital nor the labour should he called
upon to contribute, but what was absolutely necessary to
be paid should be paid by the landowner. •S;nce the
passing of the Coercion Bill, he (Mr. O'Connell) had
changed his opinion of the Protestant clergymen,
for their conduct had lately been most vexatious and
tyrannical. Instead of suing by one process, they bad
sued in msny instances upon three or four, to recover a
few shillings due at one year, or at one period, and other
small suing due at other periods, and by suing sometimes
in different ways against the same person, the costs were
frequently swelled up to 201. Those who had taken such
vexatious courses ought not to receive any cnmpensetion
until they had repaid to the poor peasantry the eosts to
which they had been put. He denied that the resident
landlords deserved the charges which bad been again and
again brought against them in that House, and as fre-
quently received by cheers. There were some whose
conduct was must oppressive sad tyrannical, but that was
not the general rule, nee any thing like the gene-
ral rule, for the general rule was all the other way.
He hoped a relict inquiry would be made into the
population of the country, that the number of Protestants
would be ascertained, and that the Church establishment
would be reduced to agree with the amount of that popu.
ration.—(Hear, hear.) If this were done there would he
ample funds to repay every shilling of the million to be
advanc.d by this Bill. If it were not repaid, he could
only say, that if the people of England found any amuse•
merit in continuing a church establishment in Ireland—
if, as Franklin had paid, they would have their whistle,
they should pay for it.—(Hear, hear.) Were the people
of Ireland in 1834 to become cheerful in the payment of
tithes when they had so long objected to them ? Certa:nly
tint. The Government, however, had done exceedingly
well in bringing forward this measure—(Laughter)
They had secured tranquillity for a year and a-half, they
to be occupied discovered
had put an etsd to disturbances for that period the moment t
w
in
thatenforcing the
tithespolice
tranquillity
were not
took place in Ireland. Under these circumstances in
which they stood at present, he was decidedly in favour
of the Bill, as it would give both Houses time to consider
the subject before the next session, and it would give to
the people of Ireland time to look into the measure, it
would give to the Government an opportunity of consider-
ing whether it wooed keep up a Protestant Church at the
expense of a Catholic people.—(Hear.) The people of
Scotland were not satisfied with their Church Establishment
when it became identified with the people, and until that
was the case, they fought for it with their broad swords
in their hands
__(}fear, hear.) On the same principle
that the
people of England and Scotland had been given
their church, ought the Irisli• to have theirs.. There was
no Protestant in the House who would, with more
vehemence than himself,
likient to the Roman Catholic
religion being ,he religion of tbe! State, but he was too
sincere a Roman Catholic for this;, but if ise was minded
to deprive religion of its expantive power,-(Hear, hear)
—he would ally it to the State—(Heal)--he 'would make
its clergy rich—he would make thein familiar with the
castle of Dublin, and he would estrange them from their
flocks.

For Satan, now grown winter than'before,
Tempts man by making rich, not making poor.
Sit 11• INGLIS said, the Hon. and Lra,ned illemter
for Dublin had taken his metaphors 'rout every subject
—from grave to gsy—trom lively to szvere--trom the
whistle to the broadevvord..(Latighter)..and iu a very

Mr. O'CONNELL begged to say that when he went
into the parish, seventeen years ago, the Church rates
were but 4001., a year, and now they were 2,5001.
Sir R. INGLIS said that whatever had been gained
by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had not,
perhaps, been lost by the Church, but it was
transferred to other parties. With regard to the present
Bill, he concurred in the views which had been originally
developed hy the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, as he
believed they were calculated to do good to that country,
but he feared that the Bill in form and substance was
calculated to do more harm than good, as it would put to
hazard all the pecuniary interests of the clergy. The
Noble Lord opposite (Altherp) by his untoward declaration
in respect to tithes, had effectually prevented the collection
of tithes in Ireland, and all the letters which he had received
upon the subject convinced him that that assertion was
founded in fact. He thought that some consideration
should be given with regard to the arrears of tithes before
1831, and that the clergy should not be compelled to sa-
crifice their claims. Upon the whole he came to the
determination, and he did so with reluctance, to concur
with the amendment of the Hon. Member for Middlesex.
Mr. WARBURTON begged to request that the
Honourable Member for Middlesex would not press his
amendment upon the third reading of the Bill, but
that he would take the sense of the House upon the
introduction of his clause to secure the repayment of the
money by the church property, in failure of payment by
the parties to whom it was advanced.

Mr. SHAW considered this Bill calculated to work
great mischief to the Church of Ireland. The clergy were
in many places in a state of starvation, and when the
Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin's vanity
was not gratified by the reporters, he did not show
so much good taste as the clergy of Ireland had
done. He (Mr. S.) was opposed to the Bill in principle.
It was subversive of the best interests of the Church, which
he was very desirous of defending from the aspersions of
the Hon. and Learned Member. Of all the absurd, un-
just, and injurious Bills that could be brought into that
House, as regarded the Established Church, it was this
Bill. It was productive of all evil, and opposed to all
good.—(Hear, hear, bear.) It was fraudulent—it
held out a premium to resist the law—it gave
a country to outrage, it put on the forbearance of the
clergy, it discouraged them, and held out a discouragement
to all those who in future were disposed to pay their debts.
He might be supposed to speak warmly on the subject of the
Church, but he now declared sincerely and coolly
that it was his most perfect conviction, that it was the
full intention of the Ministry to overturn the Church, as
established in Ireland. He excluded the Right Hon.
Member (the Secretary for the Colonies) from tide in
tention, but judging of public men (as he could only
judge of them) from their conduct, be drew the conclu-
sion that this was their design ; and whatever the Hon.
arid Learned Member for Dublin might say, be believed
it to be the intention of Ministers to establish the Roman
Catholic Church in Ireland.—( Hear, and laiighicr.)
They never could succeed in this design without a dis-
memherment of the empire, and results which would be
most prejudicial. Still they never took, and never could
have taken, a better means to promote that end than the
introduction of the Bill now before the House. He
would not vote for the Bill, but leave the entire responsi-
bility t-,f the measure upon his Majesty's Ministers,
The Noble Lord had said that he put it forward as tba
redemption of a pledge he had given, and in which his
honour wan cbncerned.—(Hear, hear, hear.) What-
forward such a Bill, he did not believe the Clergy of Ire-
land ever would act tinder it, and he sincerely hoped they
would not. He thought the Bill should be entitled, "An
Act to subvert the Established Church, and increase the
disturbances in Ireland."

Mr. HUME agreed to withdraw his amendment, with
a view to bring up a claim after the third reading, which
would have the same effect contemplated by his previous
amendment.
The Bill was then read a third time.

Mr. HUMS then brought up a clause, to the followin
effect Provided always, and be it enacted, that if tht
sum to be granted and advanced under the provi,iom.
of this Act, shall not be paid from the sources
provided, and within the time specified in the Act,
any balance then remaining due to the public shall become
chargeable on the funds of the temporalities of the church
of Ireland, and shall be placed at the disposal of the Com-
missioners under the Temporalities (Ireland) Bill, to be
annually paid to the public until the principal and interest
have been sati,fied.

Tile clause was read a first time. On the motion that
it ha read a second time,
Lord ALTHORP rose and said, as he conceived such a
clause, instead of securing the payment of the advance,
would secure its non-payment, by the parties to whom the
money was to be granted be could not agree to it. It
would be a more straight-forward course at once to charge
the advance of money in the hands of the Committee.

e The Howe th, n divided, when there appeared—.
For the Clause
Against it 47
Majority against it .....-20
On the motion that the Bill do plov,

Mr. D. BROWNE said he should vote for this Bill in
the same way that he voted for the Coercion Bill, •iz.
thp.c he disliked both its principl-s and detail,—(Laugh-
ter)--but, with all its evils, he liked it better than a civil
war.

Mr. HUME said he could not let the Bill pass without
one passing observation, and that was, that if the money
were not repaid, be hoped some lion. Member would
bring in a Bill to sell the Church property in Ireland to
raise money for its repayment.
The Bill was then passed.
On the order .4 the day being read for the second read-
ing of the amendments on the Tea Duties Bill,
Mr. S. RICE said he hoped his Hon. Friend opposite
would postpone his amendments to the third reading of
the Bill.

The amendment* brought up were then read a second
time and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.

The Howe then went into Committee on the Turnpike
Roads' Accounts Bill.

Alter the House had resumed, the report wis ordered
to he received to morrow.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at four o'clock.

Copy of a petition presented to Parliament,on the 19th
of August, by C. J. Kemeys Tynte, M.P. for West Su.
merset :

TO THE RIGHT HONOURABLE THE COMMONS OF
GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,IN PARLIA.
MENT ASSEMBLED,
THE HUMBLE PETITION OF THE UNDERSIGNED
INHABITANTS OF THE COUNTY OF SOMER-
SET,
SNEWETII,

That your petitioners have been taught to entertain a
hope that your Honourable House would,
.ere this, have
aff,releci them some relief from their great burthens. That
havini,, been hitherto disappointed in that hope, they
think it their duty to remind your Honourable House
that in their opinion the time is come ivhen something of
substantial benefit should be done for the people, and the
a ncerity of professions be tried by the test of practice.
They further state that at a time of unexampled
.depres-
sion of the active and laborious classes of the community,
there is no tax which in their opinion operates more inju-
riously on industrious men, and more seriously curtails
their comforts than the Malt T,x, rince by doubling the
price of halt it depriv,s many families of the power of
brewing, and very grievously raises its cost to all, which
by limiting the demand for Barley, causes a great stag-
nation in the trade in that grain, diminishing, and, in
many instances, destroying the farmers' profits, and ope-
rating no less perniciously on the comforts and social con•
dition of the trading and manufacturing people.
Your petitioners theretore itn2lote your Honourable
House to take these thi,,g. into your immediate consi .e-
-ration, with a view to afford some of the often protnised
relief to the country by the ppeedy repeal of the Malt T.x.
And your petitioners shall ever pray.

(782 signatures.
The Hon. Member strongly supported the petition, 0q
did the Marquis of Chantio3 and Mr. Cobbett.

ENGLAND. -----
Aglionby, H. A.—Cockermouth
Bewes, F.—Plymouth
Blamire, William—East Cum.
berland
Briscoe, J. 1.--East Surrey
Dykes, F. L. B.—Cockermouth
Evans, Colonel—Westminster
Ewart, Wm.—Liverpool
Hall, Benjamin—Monmouth
Hawes, Benjamin—Lambeth
Hughes, Hughes—Oxford
Hutt, Wm.—Hull
Lloyd, J. H.—Stockport
Potter, R.—Wigan
I;onrrteet: cs,.J.
I.vNe
Col.—Bolton
Tynrte, st
Somer.

IRLAD.
Blake, M J.E GalwNay Co.
Browne, D.—Mayo
Mullins, F. W.—Kerry
O'Connell, Daniel—Dublin
O'Dwyer, A. C.—Drcghedc.
O'Ferrall, R.lre
Vigors, N. C.—Carlow
Wallace, T.--Carlow

setshire
Young, G. T.--.l)nemouth ,
It is worthy of rein irk, that to the great number of
members of Government who voted against the Clause for
taking Security for the Repayment of the 11liilion Sterling,
proposed to be advanced to the Irish Clergy, the first vote
of Mr. Crawford, the new Member for the City of Lon-
don, was given against the Clause.

TELLERS.
flume, Joseph—Aliddle6ox
Warburton, H.—Bridport

DEFINITION OF A PHILOSOPHER.--When
D'ALEAIEERT left College, he returned to his foster-mother,
with whom be lived altogether forty years, and continued
his studies, not that she gave him much encouragement,
for when he told her of any work he Irsd written, or dis-
covery which he had made, she generally replied, " Voila
ne serez jsmais qu'un philosoplie; et qu'est ee qu'un phi-
losophe ? c'est un fou qui se tourtnente pendant fla vie,
pour qu'on park de lui lorsqu'il n'y sera plus ;" which we
may English thus, " You will never he any thing hut a
philosopher—and what is that but an ass, who plagues
himself all his life, that he may be talked shout after he is
dead."—Penny Cyclopedia.

CURIOUS CALCULATIONS.—it appParl
that a sovereign is shout .959 inch thick, or th 7.: a
thousand measure 59 inches, Hence our debt of
800,000,0001. would form a zllimler of sovereigns, if laid
one on the other, of nearly 74Z) miles in length, tha' is,
almost twice the distance of London from Edinburgh. But
if instead of being laid on the edges, they Were laid flAt on
the ground, and touching, they would form a line of foal lv
11,048 mike, or would reach far towards half way
round the globe. Again, since 1,000 sovereigns weigh ,
16.65971b5. avoirdupois, or 23,051 weigh 384th,., the
whole debt is 5,949 i tons, which, allowing two tons to a
waggon.load, would teouire 2,275 waggons to
- • - -•
• - • -
aeverally about 16 yirdw in length, this line of loaded
treaure would employ 11,900 horses, and 2,975 melt al
drivers, and would extend to 27 mil e.

- • ---- „ ,
SINGULAit remarkable :act
connected with the history of bees recently occurred in
the neighbourhood of Neath. Mr. Maness, a market-
gardener, having occasion to lock a garden door which
admitted the key only on one side, found a difficulty in in-
serting the key, and when inserted he could not turn it on
either hand, the wards of the lock b4ing filled with tom,
tenacious suktance. On taking f`ff the In&t to PX.arnirie
it he discovered that it was quire filled with honeycomb,
the cella of which were well replenished with honey; and
he then recollected having repeatedly observed the bees
passing into and out of the key hole. This singtthr and
miniature hive had escaped earlier demolition by the door
not requiring fastening on the outride for some 'weeks.-•-•
Cambrian.

A gentleman residing in 13udleigh SAiterton
has at this time in possession a bantum hen, which, in
the short space of three months, has rear,d a brood of
chickens of her ow•n breed, afterwards a brood of
pheasants, and is now rearing a covey of young pariridges,
a circumstance, it is presumed, unprecedented.—Exeter
Gazette.

THE YOUNG GENTLEATA N.—The first Lord
BATHURST, who was advanced to the Earldom in 1771,
sixty years after his creation to the Barony, was a remark-
able instance of the ()atm cum dignitate. Pi tnting
his grounds at his seat at Cirencester aftcr he ha,' reacher]
the age of forty—

" Who then shall grace or who improve the soil,
Who plants like Bathurst, or who builds like Bo) le !•'—
he lived to enjoy with philosophic calmness that shade
of his lay trees at fifty years' growth. SWIFT,
ATTERBURY, and POPE ; ROWE, ADDISON, PRIOR;
CONGREVE, ARBUTHNOT, and GAY, were among his
intimates and correspondents, and the evening of his
life, which had been passed in social intercourse and
benevolence, was marked by hospitality and vivacity. Till
within a month of his death, he constantly rode out two
hours every morning, and drank his bottle of wine after
dinner; hence the cheerful anecdote, not yet without its
zest by repetition.—lnviting a large party to dinner to
meet his son, who had become Lord Chancellor, the
whole company sat late, except the law lord, who took
his leave at the decorous hour of twelve, Co
the aged Earl, " now the old gentleman isgone,
manag- to take another bottle." He died sat. 91.--
Sharpe's Peerage.
GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATION AT THE
Cuszom-Rousa —The Magistrates eat, as usual, rster-
day, and proceeded with the examination of witneves
relative to the causes of the late fire. The individuals
examined yesterday were principally those engag-.1 in
the revenue department, and in the management of the
east side of the store, where the bon 'ed goods lay, chiefly
spirits and sugars. Nothing has as yet been elicited of a
nature calculated to warrant the supposition that any in-
cendiary had a hand in the dreadful coilltgratinn, and
considerable attention bas been given to the question how
far it might have been caused by the spontaneous had trn-
ntation of articles which lay together in the store, viz.—
catton, palm oil, wool, tallow, hemp, junk, &c. Some
scientific gentlemen will be ex mined on this point to-day,
coma the ingratiaation will, in all ptobability, terminate.
The magistrates still forbid the publication of the pro.
needing& —D ablin Morning Register of Saturday.
SIR WILLIA:bi COURTENAY.—This person
who has lately acquired s a much natority in Kent, toms
out to be a malster and wine and spirit nierchatat of Truro,
in Cornwall ; his name is John Nicholas Ton. He re-
ceived an ortlinary education, and was accounted clever;
an f married a lady of good fortune and resp-ctable con-
nections in Truro. Re was always an enthusiast in then-
logical matters. and about two years since had a aavtre
fit of illness, which deprived him of reason ; after his re-
covery he went with a cargo of anal' fr on Liverpoal, for
which he received payment, about 1,0001 , but never re•
turned' to Truro, nor aerate to any of his family, who
remained in the most painful suspense careening tali rate,
ind caused advertisements to he published in
,he Lon lon
and country' p.apers, in the expgctati n of pr.
s"..trininP
s one
I
ice Wit of, DWI); never susaa crane,
Gwrienay, Knitiht-of Malta, &r,, eze., rvus the lost Juan
Nicholas Tom. Since his coovictiiin rain lanysoil
ts law i have
identified i, n
: h e
.• t
and aprated indignant
aat t
(in a
last,.-ee sail iutravicw, which
1 he 1
d brother.( t I deed Li.)tu~elf to
, :;
, will
ab;p7y for his pardon, nn the ground of mental abetratton.
Kens Herald,