The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-05 00:00:00

THE

Murray, without mentioning Archbishop of where.
Th. Roman Catholic prelater of Ireland were contieu-
r.lly addressed by the authorities of this country; for
instance, the Archbishop of Armagh was called the
Laird Archbishop. The Archbishop of Dublin was
addressed by hie tide, although it was in the face
of a 'mai Act of Parliament. An Honourable
Member behind him bad favoured him with a paper,
being an order made by her Aisjesty, showing the
precedence which she was pleased to grant to parties
who had the right of entrée to the Castle. The order
was, first the Primate of Ireland, then the Lord Chan-
c,‘llor, then the Archbishop of Dublin, and then the
Roman Catholic Primate, so that ho came before all the
Protestant bishops.—(Hear, hear.) Here we had
a man acknowledged by her Majesty's special
order as a Boman Catholic Archbishop. Now
he (Hr. Roebuck) would heg Hon. Members to mark
what this proceeding on the part
.of her Majesty's Go-
vernment was. There waa an Act of Parliament
against is very thing. and yet the Queen had entirely
put aside the authority of that Act. Her Majesty's Minis-
ters must be taken to have been aware of this order. It
must have been known to the Right Hon. Baronet the
Secretary for Ireland, as the order must have issued
from his office.

Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE was understood that
he was not aware of the fact to which the Hon. Member
alluded.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he could not help thinking that
some one was answerable for the act. What he wished
to impress upon the House with reference to this subject
was, that this was a proccedin4 of the Government,
and that the document relating to it was
so public that it waz a most important
fact. He (Mr. Roebuck) believed that the Roman Ca-
tholics had with the most perfect innocence and without
objection on the part of any one, always excepting the
Ron. Baronet the Member for the University of Ox

ford, assumed these :ides. The true
of this transaction was that it was

history
an act

which had long been contemplated by the Roman
Catholics. As early as the year 1847 they
contemplated the assumption of these titles. He (Mr.
Roebuck) held in his hand a Roman Catholic Directory
of the year 1847. In that directory, under the
head of the " London Directory," was the name
of the Most Reverend N. Wiseman, D.D.,
Archbishop of Westminster. He (Mr. Roebuck) might
be told that he was not Archbishop of Westmin-
ster. The fact was, that it was the intention of the
Pope to have made him an Archbishop, but then
came the revolution, and he was obliged to leave
Rome; but when he came back he made him an Arch-
bishop, and the Directory was published in anti.
cipat ion of the appointment. It could not be
doubted that our Minister st Florence was aware of all

this. When people talked about Acts of Parliament and
prascuunire, and invading the Queen's authority, it would
be well to bear in mind that Government had exposed
themselves to the effects of that penal and mys-
terious Act of Parliament for sending a re-
presentative to Rome.—(Hear, hear.) In the
year 1829 the late Sir Robert Peel stated that he would
not interfere with Roman Catholics, or with the Wes-
, leyans, or any other religious body. What difference
was there between the Roman Catholics and the Wes-
let ans with respect to their arrangements? He had a Ro-
man Catholic directory and a Wesleyan directory in the
one he read wider the head of the " London Directory,"
the Most Rev. N. Wiseman, D.D., Archbishop
of Westminster, and in the " Wesleyan Di-
rectory," the Rtv. John Mitchell, G. P. President of
the Conference. If he (Mr. Roebuck) chose to
call himself an archbishop, or chose to parcel
out England, what harm was there in it? If he chose
to call himself D.D., "Ass," or anything else, there
would be no more harm done than the Ca-
tholics had done by assuming these titles.
It must be remembered that there were 8,000,000 of Ca-
tholics, one third of the whole population was of hat faith,
and at a time when, by lapse of time, they were forgetting
their ancient prejudices and living in peace with
each other, was it worthy of the Noble Lord wh•
had so long been an advocate of civil and re-
ligious liberty to aid a feeling which had its source
in religious bate ; was it worth his while for
the sake of a flattering popularity, to lend his
name to a movement which was nothing more than
the old Puritanical bigotry breaking out in the nine-
teenth century. Upon the other subjects of the Address
they all seemed to be of the same opinion, and bad it
not been for this unfortunate dispute they would not
only have passed the Address unanimously, but perhaps
something more.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. INGLIS said, when the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man asked what was meant by Papal aggression, and when
he attempted to throw ridicule upon the proceedings on the
part of the people of this country for the last three months,
he (Sir R. Inglis) would ask whether, it such proceedings
had taken place in any other country in Europe, war would
not have been the inevitable result? When the Hon. and
Learned Member spoke of Papal aggression as almost beneath
contempt, he would ask whether the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman did not know, from history, that there was no
country in Europe in which such a measure as that which
the Pope had now attempted to inflict on England would not
have met with universal reprobation? The partition of
England by the Wesleyan Methodists admitted of no com-
parison with that attempted by the Pope. Did the Wes-
leyan Methodists, or any other religious denomination in this
country, seek to usurp authority over the consciences of the
people, or any other kind of jurisdiction? The Pope treated
England as a country of infidels; as if she had no Crown or
Church, but that the people were as heathenish as the
natives of Otaheite before the missionaries had Christianized
them. He bad, in fact, ignored the existence of both the
Crown and the Church of England. Would such an aggres-
sion have been attempted in Russia? If the Pope had
presumed to address such a brief to the inhabitants of
that great empire, the Emperor of Russia would
have said that every Russian ship in the Black Sea and in
the Baltic should have ran to the port of Civita Vecchia, and
within three months the Pope would have been compelled to
retract every indignity and insult cast against his sove-
reignty and his people. With respect to the language
adopted in the Royal Speech, he considered his Noble
Friend's letter of the 4th of November to be the text of that
Speech, and, though the text was somewhat diluted by the
commentary, yet he believed that the writer of it would be
found equal to the language he had himself used.—(Hear.)
The amount of Protestant feeling and principle which had
lain latent to an extent no one expected had been strongly
aroused by the occasion, and he hoped the movement would
not terminate with the people themselves, but in the action
of the Government. The addresses which had been pre-
sented expressed something more than attachment to the
Throne—they showed the attachment of the nation to the
Protestant religion and to the Church Establishment.—
(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Sheffield censured the Go-
vernment for saying too much; but he (Sir R. Inglis) cen-
sured them for saying too little. He hoped, however, they
would not be deterred by any remarks of any Honourable
Member from acting up, not only to the letter, but to
the spirit, of the Noble Lord's communication to the Bishop
of Durham, which had struck such a fire into the very heart
of England.—(hear, hear.) From the body to which the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman belonged (Mr. Roe-
buck) one of the most remarkable addresses to the
Throne had emanated, and no class of the community, great
or small, had refrained from stating their indignation at the
attempt cf the Bishop of Rome, and from calling for the
protection of the Government. He was surprised the Hon.
Seconder (Mr. Pao) had left almost untouched that great
question, for no persons could be more interested in it than
the Dissenters of England. The Church had protected dis-
sent—her existence was essential to the religious freedom of
the people. He would justify his vote for the Address on the
ground that Government were held bound by the letter of
the Prime Minister to give the Church that protection to
which by law and custom she had been for centuries entitled.
The Church was an essential element in the very constitution
of England, and whatever weakened the Church, impaired
that which, under God's blessing, had been the chief source
of the greatness and glory of the country, and so long as
that Church should be permitted to remain, so long he be-
lieved would England grow in all the elements of social
grandeur, and continue to afford an example to all thenations
in the world.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL was happy that the party with whom
he acted were not under the necessity of offering even the
semblance of disrespect to the Crown by moving an amend-
ment to the Address. The Royal Speech claimed their alle-
giance and the support of the friends of religious liberty, and
he would cheerfully respond to bath those claims. He
denied that the Hon. Seconder was correct in his inference
that prosperity was returning in Ireland. Much had been
tobythtehePopeasaido
nagbotuhtetnheewterritorial
;a lbl our,
if
ntthoefy El Igkl aend d
instru-
ment appointing the vicars-apostolic in 1840, they would see
a precisely similar allotment. The Hon. Baronet said the
bPlottp eE
nwould not. shaapvpeovs
ieangt u rtehda
to nt
to that h
bea t s
tt
re
waansy
icto unno
tt r3a,
proud boast for England to see she was so free that she did
not set restrictions of any kind on religious freedom? Would
the Hon. Baronet wish England to follow the example of
Russia ? But when the Hon. Baronet made that statement
he forgot the case of Ireland seventy years ago, when the
Pope made appointments to sees without reference to the
civil power; though it was quite true, notwithstanding
what English history said, that he always sought the sanc-
tion of that authority whenever he could obtain it. As to
the conduct of the Noble Lord in the matter, he could not
add anything to what had fallen from the lion. Member for
Sheffield. After the letter he had written, in which he had
grossly insulted the faith of his Catholic fellow-countrymen,
it was expected that he might have attempted to carry out
what he threatened; but, as the Noble Lord had shrunk
back, he would but earn the contempt of every friend of civil
and religious liberty for the gross, unwarrantable,
wanton insult he had offered to the practices of the religion
of a large body of his fellow- subjects.
Mr. A. B. HOPE said that no one could feel more in•
dignant than he did at the manner in which the heads of the
Roman Catholic Church had proceeded in that matter, and
at the way in which their organs in the public press had
spoken of the extinct see of Canterbury, and had completely
ignored the existence of the English Established Church.
As a member of that Church, he was ready to fight to the
last against such aggression. But they were not assembled
in that House as members of the Church of England; they
were assembled there solely as representatives of the citizens
of England—of a country pre-eminent throughout the world
for the intelligence and enlightenment of its inhabitants,
and above all for their enunciation of the great doc-
trine of liberty of conscience. Now he could not help
thinking that those who advocated measures of extreme
rigour upon that subject took the Tudor and Stuart view
of liberty of conscience—a view which would lead to the
hurrying of Cardinal Wiseman to the fires of Smithfield,
and to the cropping of the ears of the Hon. Gentleman
who had seconded the Address. They had in recent
times repealed the abominable Test and Corporation Act,
and had passed other measures calculated to ensure to the
professors of every creed the great right of religious liberty;
and it would now he too late for them to adopt the practice
of religious intolerance. In the recent, measure, which had
been so much denounced, the Roman Catholics had strictly
conformed to the very letter of the Emancipation Act of
1829, which allowed their prelates to take their titles from
any town or city which did not give its name to a bishop of
the Established Church. He believed that the religion
which he professed was based on truth, and he did not, there-
fore, think that its safety could be endangered simply be-
cause Cardinal Wiseniau had changed his title. He looked
upon the speech of the Hon. Baronet the Member for the
University of Oxford as a great blow to our Church Estab-
lishment, and for his part he certainly did not share in the
apprehensions which the Hon. Baronet had expressed for the
safety of that Establishment. Let them stand on the broad
ground of justice, and he should have faith in the Crown of
England and in the Church of England.
Mm'. ANSATY said that
in cnusineeing that question they
should bear in mind that a great difference existed between

SUN, LONDON,

the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and the Roman '
Ca-
tholic Church in this country. In Ireland the Roman Ca-
tholic body enjoyed the advantage of a long-established
system of church government, which secured the rights of
the laity, and of the minor clergy; while no such system
prevailed among the Roman Catholics in England. In this
country there had been a continual conflict between the Re-
man Catholic bishops on the one hand, and the Roman Ca-
tholic laity and clergy of the second order on the other, the
subject of contention being the unseemly and unholy assum-
thm of an authority on the part of the prelate which would
leave their spiritual subjects without the protection of
any law, and would free themselves from the restraint of
any usage or canon whatever. Petitions had been sent to
Rome by Roman Catholic Clergymen and laymen praying
for a removal of that anomalous state of things; but by the
recent bull the See of Rome had decided the question against
them. 1)y the establishment of the proposed hierarchy the
whole system of canon laws was expressly repealed, and the
Roman Catholic bishops would be armed with irresponsible
and unlimited powers. The result of that would be
that the new system would become law to the Roman
Catholics first, and afterwards to the courts of law in this
country. Then they would have the Court of Chancery,
under the administration of what was denominated the
charity estates, called upon to enforce a Papal bull, by which
the vested rights of English subjects would be annihilated.
It the whole body of the canon law were repealed, that
passage in it which enacted that the donor of a chapel was
to be its patron would be done away with ; and the courts
of law in this country, if appealed to, should acknowledge
the validity of its abrogation. Now, what did the Address
do? It recommended that subject to the consideration
of Parliament. Atsd surely there could be nothing im-
proper or unreasonable in such a recommendation. He
asked on what ground did the whole course of legislation
of mortmain proceed? Was it not on the ground that
"undue influence" might have been exercised? Why did
they interfere betweon the factory owner and the factory
child ;—between the..master and the young persons he em-
ployed? On the same grounds they should interfere in
this case. They ought to recollect what were the penalties
attachable to Roman Catholics for disobedience to spiritual
authorities in spiritual matters. They ought not to stop
with the barren and idle question of title; but they ought
to take into consideration matters of higher and greater
' importance. They ought to deal with things and not with
names. He then repeated what he had said on a former oc-
casion, that it was impossible to have an Archbishop of
Westminster without a hierarchy, that was, without clerical
election. He thought that it was true; but events had
since falsified the opinion he entertained and had expressed
in that House, in reply to the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Oxford, and he now regretted the deplorable change that
had taken place in the political position of the Pope from
what it had been in 1848. He believed that it was in the
discretion of the Archbishop of Westminster whether he
should return to England as archbishop or vicar-apostolic.
The Cardinal had preferred the former. It was his opinion
that for a Bill to be of use, it must go much farther than
that which Ministers seemed to contemplate. If it did so he
would vote for it ; if it did not, if it were a mere Bill atfeet-
ing the titles of Roman Catholic prelates, he would vote
against it. He would also vote against any Bill which in
connexion with such a subject as this should have relation
to Ireland; because that was a country which was in a far
different position from England; because it was a country
that had never lost its hierarchy, never had accepted its
canon law from the Pope or its delegates, but had ever re-
tained it from the days of St. Patrick. If a division were
called for on this occasion he would support the Address.
His determination was to offer his opposition to any Roman
Catholic amendment.

Mr. PLUMPTRE said, that during his public career he
had never known, so deep, earnest, and indignant a feeling
evolved as that which had been excited by the aggression of
the Pope; and he must declare his opinion that this feeling
had not been responded to in a sufficiently strong and pointed
manner in the Speech from the Throne.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") He would not dwell further on this point,
but would wait—as the Protestant people of England would
—to see what sort of Bill the Government intended to intro-
duce. He hoped the Bill would meet the case; but, if it
should not do so, he would tell the Noble Lord that the feel-
ing of the country would display itself with redoubled
energy.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord might depend upon
this, that the Protestant people of England felt themselves
placed in no ordinary position, and influenced by no ordinary
feelings. They felt that their highest and holiest interests
were at stake, and that they were determined, by every con-
stitutional means—in dependence on the aid and blessing of
God—to maintain those interests. He called upon the Noble
Lord faithfully to discharge his duty as Prime Minister—
faithfully to adhere to the declarations made in his letter to
the Bishop of Durham ; let him act thus and the country
would go with him. it, as was stated, some of the Noble
Lord's colleagues were not disposed to co-operate with him
in pursuing the course "which be (Mr. Plumptre) recom-
mended, led him get rid of them.—(Cheers and laughter.)
He believed that the country had no wish to get rid of the
Noble Lord, but there were one or two of his colieagues
whom the country would not be at all indisposed to dispense
with.—( Hear, and laughter.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said, that like the
Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him, he would abstain
from entering into any discussion on the important question
at issue until the Bill of the Government should be before
the House. He, however, was anxious to declare that should
any attack—come from what quarter it might—be directed
against the liberty of the Roman Catholic Church, he, in his
place in Parliament, would—he trusted temperately and
constitutionally—oppose it to the best of his power. If
any measures of persecution—coming from any quarter—
should be carried through the House—for their oppo-
nents were strong, and the Catholic party weak—he trusted
that his co-religionists knew how to suffer with firmness and
dignity.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FAGAN expressed his surprise at the Honourable and
Learned Member (Mr. Anstey) speaking of the English
Catholic Church as„,endowed, and contrasting it in that re-
spect with the Catholic Church in Ireland. It was his be-
lief that the Catholic Church in Ireland was richer than
that in England; but neither was endowed, and, on that
ground, Catholics protested against any :state interference
with their ecclesiastical regulations.— (Hear, hear.) One
reason why the secondary clergy of the Roman Catholic
Church had continued so long without the rights which the
same class enjoyed in every other country was, that the
bishops who presided over them were not bishops in ordi-
nary; but he understood that the result of the recent re-
script of the Pope was to make them so, and that it was only
because of the great excitement which had existed during
the last three months in this country that Archbishop Wise-
man had not called the bishops together for the purpose of
promulgating those laws, the absence of which curtailed the
rights of the secondary clergy. The Hon. Member who se-
conded the Address (Mr. Peto) had advised Roman Catholic
Members not to raise any debate upon the question of the so-
called Papal aggression upon this occasion. He (Mr. Fagan)
would have been delighted to follow the advice, had the
lion. Member not, at the same time that he gave it, thrown
the apple of discord among them by his own remarks
(Hear, hear.) He begged to say also that, connecting the
Address with the proposition of which notice had been given
by the Noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown that
evening, he for one regretted that the Roman Catholic Mem-
bers, and the advocates of religious liberty generally in that
House, had not given utterance to a stronger expression of
dissent than they had as yet done. He altogethor dissented
from the statement in her Majesty's Speech, that the recent
assumption of certain ecclesiastical titles" had been conferred
by a foreign power." Ther had been conferred by the Pope
as spiritual head of the church, not as Sovereign of the Ro-
man States.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said that a stranger would be led to suppose
from the whole tenor of the discussion up to that moment
that the Members were a set of ecclesiastics, met to discuss
nothing but ecclesiastical affairs—(Hear, hear)—for no no-
tice had as yet been taken of any other matter. It appeared
to him that the House was not in a position to offer any opi-
nion 'Ton the measure of which the Noble Lord had given
notice; and, if he were to judge from her Majesty's Speech,
he should conclude that there was none of that danger to be
apprehended which his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Roe-
buck) had referred to in his very able speech. He begged to
say further, that he thought it a most humiliating declara-
tion for a Protestant to make, that, in spite of the numbers,
wealth, and power of the clergy of the Established Church,
Protestantism was in danger of being overturned by a rescript
of the Pope of Rome.—( Hear.) But, passing from that topic
with the simnle additional remark that he could not believe
that the Noble Lord whom he had followed for so many years
as the advocate of religious liberty would sully his character
by introducing a measure which would come under the de-
scription of persecution, he would call attention to some
other paragraphs of the Speech. He regretted to observe
'that more than one-third of the Speech was taken up with
matters relating to foreign countries.—(Hear.) The time of
the Cabinet seemed to be much more occupied with the
affairs of other nations than with the concerns of our own.
It would surely be much better if the case were reversed.—
(Hear, hear.) He could not concur in the gratification ex-
pressed by her Majesty respecting the fulfilment of the
treaty with Denmark. On the contrary, he saw with deep
regret the armed occupation of the free town of Hamburgh
li
against the united protest of the inhabitants, and the liber-
ties of Germany placed under the iron foot of Austria, backed
by the power ot Russia, and that, too, with the express con-
currence of the British Government.—(Hear, hear.) He
trusted her Majeaty's Ministers would as speedily as possi-
ble lay before the House the whole correspondence that had
taken place, in order that Members might be enabled to
judge of the transaction.—(Hear, hear.) He could net help
approving, however, of that paragraph of the Speech which
referred to the expected reforms in " the administration of
justice in the several departments of law and equity." He
considered the expenses entailed upon the country by the
Court of Chancery to be more oppressive than the ordinary
taxation. The extent of the one we knew; the other was
unknown.—( Hear.) He hoped that England would follow
the example of the United States, and abolish the Court of
Chancery altogether. He also highly approved of the pro-
posal " for providing for the establishment of a system of
registration of deeds and instruments relating to the transfer
of property." He regretted, however, that the Speech con-
tained nothing on the subject of the reduction of taxation.
—( Hear, hear.) The country had been led to believe that
we were on the verge of receiving relief from some oppres-
sive taxation ; but he found no hope of it held out, either in
the Speech of her Majesty, or in the speeches of the mover
and seconder of the Address. He trusted, nevertheless, that
be might give the Noble Lord credit for the intention to re-
duce taxation, as well as to introduce a measure of reform.
At a time when the manufacturing classes were well em-
ployed, although he was sorry he could not say so much for
the agricultural classes.—(Hear, hear)—it appeared to him
desirable to embrace so favourable an opportunity of con-
ferring upon that important portion of the community their
constitutional rights—(Hear.) He wished to see the Noble
Lord redeem the pledge he gave in 1832, to introduce such a
measure of reform as would make that House really and es-
sentially the representatives of the people. Was that the
case at present?—(Hear.) There was also the Bible mono-
poly, which he hoped would be abolished ; for he could not
imagine anything more inconsistent than her Majesty
ex-
pressing a hope that the whole people would consult the
Bible, and at the same time by royal patent granting a mo-
nopoly to keep up its price.—(Hear, hear.) He could also
have wished to have some assurance front the Government
ot a reform in our colonial system.—(Hear, hear.) Its gave
the Noble Lord great credit for his able and manly peech
respecting the c, donies last session; but was there one of the
colonies at present less loud and just in its complaints than
before?—(dear.) But, sorry as he was at these and other
()missions, he endeavoured to console himself with the con-
cluding paragraph of her Majesty's keech, which he be-
the
pbjse withcts,
which she"
liilivzeadbewtrials,
ua
capable ot including- everything he wanted. He
wished her Majesty would recollect what was said by Queen
said her Majesty, "are my guard. I look to them for sup-
port." Let her Majesty disband her useless and unnecessary
hen
to she
repelva thes aSspkaendiswhhAerrme wadear.e
armies, and trust more than she did to her people, and she
would find her reward accordingly.—( Rear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP could not help attributing the recent
Papal aggression to the conduct of the Noble Lord the First
Minister of the Crown, and those who, he might say, were
under his command—such as Lord Minto, Lord Clarendon,
&C., who had given every encouragement in their power to
the Pope to take the step he had done. He regretted that
her Majesty's Speech contained nothing more than the ex-
pression of a" hope" with reference to the depressed state of
agriculture. He had lately come from a most important

WEDNESDAY EVENING,

county; and what did the House think were the feelings,
opinions, and sufferings of the owners and occupiers, as well
as of the ill-paid labourers who tilled the soil in that quarter?
If her Majesty's Ministers were to make inquiries in the
great city which he had recently quitted they would learn
something of the opinions entertained with respect to free
trade, and something also of its effects. Then, there was
this new house of glass in Hype-park; that and the Exhi-
bition for the purposes of which it had been erected were to
be the greatest and most enduring monuments—at least in
the opinion of its promoters—of the success of free trade.
They might call it success, but he called it failure. He did
not wish to see that building destroyed by ary acts of violence,
but would to God that some hailstorm or some visitation of
lightning might descend to defeat the ill-advised project.
If, however, the proposed Exhibition should go forward, and
multitudes of foreigners were to fill our streets, then be
should say to the people of this metropolis—take care among
thieves and pickpockets and whoremongers—take care of
your wives and daughters—take care of your lives and
property. It migh be a curious matter to ascertain how
much money had already been fooled away upon this under-
taking. He had observed, that already notices of important
motions had been given besides that of the Noble Lord at

the head of the Government; but from the proposition of
the Noble Lord he anticipated very little good. There
could he no doubt that his policy would get the country
into difficulties, and even under its most favourable aspect
it would present only the appearance of advantage; it
would be a mere flash in the pan. Although those who
kept the Noble Lord in office were sorry to see him play-
ing the part of ➢linister of a great country, yet they
seemed not prepared at the present moment to replace
him; but the change most desired by the country would
be such a change as would remove the Noble Lord from
the Treasury bench ; but the Noble Lord ro doubt would
endeavour to bold his place by succumbirg to a party
which he could not resist. Of the Speech from the
Throne he should say no more, for though he enter-
tained for the Sovereign the profoundest veneration, yet his
feelings as to Ministers were those of the mostcontemptuous
kind.

➢ir. G. C. G. F. BERKELEY rose to call tte attention of

the House to that paragraph in the Speech from the Throne
in which reference was made to th's " recent assumption of
certain ecclesiastical titles conferred by a forign Power."
This appeared to him to be the chief subject under discus-
sion, yet he felt indisposed just then to proceed further with
that discussion, more especially when he recollected that in
the next paragraph her Majesty was advised to say, " It
will be for you to consider the measure which will be laid
before you on this subject." Until that measurs came fairly
and fully before the House, he thought it best to abstain from
saying much on the subject. But he should vigilantly attend
to the progress of the whole of that measure, aid he trusted
that he should watch it in the spirit of a true Protestant.
At the same time he had no wish that the principles of civil
and religious liberty should be in any manner afected by it.
But, passing by those topics, he should now come to a part
of the Speech which was by no means the least important;
it was that in which her Majesty was advised to say that
" the state of commerce an t manufactures Was such as to
afford general employment to the labouring classes." If by
that it were meant to convey an impression thtt the agricul-
tural labourers of this country were fully employed, he begged
to dissent from it altogether. He could say that in several
counties of England there existed among the agricul-
tural classes very great distress. But in addition to the
words of the Speech, they had been congrattlated by the
seconder of the Address upon the prosperity of trade and of
agriculture. Now, he had in his possession t letter from a
high authority in Suffolk which left no doubt that there was
little ground for congratulation. He regretted to observe
that in the Speech from the Throne there was n) reference to
the condition of the tenant farmers or to the injustice inflicted
on them and on other persons similarlycircumstanced by the
present apportionment of the income-tax. That was a
subject which appeared to demand immediate attention.
There remained one other topic which he coulc not sit down
without noticing, although it had been already well handled
by an Hon. Member near him—he meant the present situa-
tion of our colonies. There was no class of her Majesty's
subjects who were suffering more severely or more patiently,
than the colonists, unless it be the agriculturists, and he pro-
posed shortly to submit to the House one or two motions on
those subjects.

Mr. GRATTAN observed, that the seconder Df the Address
had congraticulated the House on'the general prosperity of
agriculture and manufactures. Now, in a part of Ireland
with which he was acquainted, and which might be said to
possess some manufactures, the only sign of prosperity which
he could observe was the erection of one tall chimney, 150
feet in height, the sole effect of which would beto vitiate the
atmosphere. The people of Ireland were (pitting their
homes by hundreds of thousands, and in many parts of
the country pauperism was increasing in as great a propor-
tion as he knew it to be from personal knowledge in the
union of Celbridge, where the numbers had increased from
1,500 to 2,400. It was well known to the people of Ireland,
as well as to the whole of the United Kingdom, that the
Queen did all that could be done by the Sovereign for the
improvement of Ireland; but the gracious benignity of the
Monarch was rendered of little avail by the ill-judged mea-
sures of Ministers, in which measures, as every one could
see, the true interests of Ireland were not consulted. The
Hon. Member proceeded to contrast the social comfort en-
joyed before the recent outburst of feeling with the heart-
burnings and illwill which it had engendered, and declared
that if he were a young man, he would rather go to America
and become a citizen of the United States than continue to
be insulted, as a Catholic, by such letters as those of Lord J.
Russell. He should move to scratch out the words " United
Kingdom" in the Bill to be brought in by the Noble Lord,
and to substitute the words " England and Scotland." He
hoped there would be found to be spirit and secee enough in
that House, when it was seen how gross a delusion was
attempted to be practised upon the country, to support and
save from outrage the sentiment of civil and religious

liberty.
Mr. BANKES said that before the'debateiwas brought to a
conclusion there were some passages in her Majesty's Speech
which the representatives of the agricultural interest must
think it their duty to offer a few remarks upon. It was to
be expected that the question of Papal aggression would
take the lead in the deliberations of Parliament, and he for
one did not blame Lord J. Russell for having brought forward
the subject thus prominently, and for declaring it a proper
matter for early legislation. This was not a question as be-
tween Roman Catholics and Protestants, because some of
the most eminent members of the former persuasion, such as
the Duke of Norfolk and Lord Deaumont, had taken the
same view as he (Mr. Bankes) held, and he bad lately had
the gratification of hearing another Roman Catholic noble-
man espouse with great eloquence the same side of the ques-
tion. So that if the measure proposed by the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government should take the character of an
ex post facto law, he should not be deterred from supporting
it by regarding it as a matter in which Protestants were ar-
rayed against Roman Catholics, because even in Ireland many
persons might be found who were acting honourably and con-
scientiously with the Noble Lord. Her Majesty, for the second
time in two successive years, had been advised to notice the
agricultural interest as still distressed and as still deserving
(as be understood it) of the earnest attention of the Govern-
ment. In the Queen's Speech of last year her Majesty de-
clared she had heard with regret the complaints of the agri-
cultural portion of her subjects. It was thought by some
that the advice was not good or kind which had recom-
mended her Majesty to speak of undoubted distress in these
terms; but he gave her Ministers credit for believing that
this distress was only of a temporary character. Yet, when
after a lapse of 12 months, Parliament again listened to a
Royal Speech in which the existence of agricultural distress
was adverted to, although it was not mentioned in
quite such contemptuous terms, yet it was still spoken of
as temporary, and as not likely to be of long endurance.
Let the Noble Lord ask himself whether, when the agricul-
tural interest was commencing another year with difficulties
still, he could be content to sit in the seat he occupied, and
put off that interest with no better assurance than his hopes
founded upon the condition of other classes of the com-
munity? No doubt the prosperity of other classes was very
intimately connected with the prosperity of this; but that
connexion was not of the same intimate character that it
was when, under the influence of laws now abrogated, it was
the inevitable consequence of the prosperity of other classes
that the agricultural interest should flourish also. The
prosperity of the manufacturing classes would operate upon
those who supplied them with food ; and the case was al-
tered now if that food was to be drawn from foreign parts.
—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord must not complain of this
subject being intruded upon him when he had himself intro-
duced it again after the lapse of 12 months, in which all the
prophecies had fai ed on which he asked the agricultural in-
terest to rely.—(Hear.) Did the Government think it be-
coming to wait another twelve months to see whether the
"difficulties" now acknwledged would become distresses;
and if they should, to wait another twelve months to see
whether the distresses would become utter ruin ?—(Hear.)
The harvest had been unequal ; in the county he represented
(Dorset) in some parts there were many able-bodied men in
the workhouse, but happily it was not so in the greater por-
tion of the county. But we ought not to wait till utter ruin
came. The agricultural interest were desponding and
alarmed, and there was nothing in the Speech to lessen that
feeling. There was not, he was satisfied, a warmer friend to
them than the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell); would that he
were in a position to give them a fixed duty ! But we had
a surplus revenue to deal with, and one class admitted to be
suffering; let it be given to that class, and perhaps we might
be a uniformly happy nation.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord had an opportunity of saying what were the remedies
he proposed for that class; and as the faithful guardian, in
inclination, of that class as of every other,there were no
hands from which a remedy would be more gratefully re-
ceived.—(Hear, hear.)

Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—l am rejoiced
to find that we are not likely to have a division upon the
question of the Address, and that that Address is likely to be
oi without any amendment being pro.
P
passed by the House, if not unanimously, at least with very
general
however, endeavour to ad-
cl °es sesdy l He consent,fa t ics which have been touched
by gentlemen who have spoken, taking, for convenience,
rather the order in. which the topics are mentioned in the
Queen's Speech than the order in which they may have been
r (s
posed.—(Hear,
rohear.)
thea ena
various r tu Il
will,u
p
spoken to. My Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) began with rather
a strange complaint, that it had been thought necessary to
advise her Majesty to make so much reference to foreign af-
fairs. With respect to the principal topic there mentioned, it
cannot be unknown to the House that the hostilities between
Denmark and Germany which were for some time carried on in
Schleswig, were of the greatest importance, not only as threat-
ening danger to the peace of Europe, but also as interfering
materially with the commerce of this country.—(Hear.) It
cannot be matter of indifference to ray Ron. Friend to learn
that those differences which have subsisted are in a fair
course of adjustment, and that at least the danger of hostili-
ties which so long hung over us is likely to be removed.—
(Hear, hear.) I cannot but rejoice myself that such should
be the case; and I hope that the endeavours which were
made by my Noble Friend near me (Lord Palmerston, we
presume) to persuade the contending parties the one not to
prolong hostilities, and the other to adopt the tone and
measures of conciliation, have not been fruitless.—( Hear,
hear.) But my Hon. Friend immediately went on to say
that lie thought this country ought not to have permitted
Austria to take certain measures which she had taken, and to
occupy Hamburgh with her troops to act in a manner con-
trary to the freedom of Europe. Why, really that complaint
is most inconsistent with the former..( Hear.)
--ear./ if we had
yielded to the former, no mention would have been made of
Mreign politics; but, if we bad yielded to the latter, we
should have been now engaged in a war with some of the
principal powers of Europe.—(Hear, hear. )' Our course has
not agreed with either of those views. We have used our in-
fluence where we thought it might tend to the peace of Eu-
rope; and, in other cases, however important they were to
the general interests of Germany, we have not thought it our
duty to interfere in any way, but, at the same time, we can-
not but think that the settlement of those affairs, and the
maintenance of a great power in the centre of Europe acting
in harmony, is of the utmost importance—( Hear) and we
do hope that, while that great power maintains its strength,
the separate branches of that great empire, the various states
which form that greet confederation, may find not only those
constitutions maintained which they have held now for a
long period of years but that those constitutions may be
made still more favcurable to liberty. —(Year.) Such ia our
wish—such is our prayer for the welfare of Germany; but
we do not consider ourselves bound to interfere in the con-

cerns of 40,000,000 of people to carry out that object.
(Hear.) The next topic to which I shall advert is that to
which the Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has
spoken ; but, though I agree in the sympathy which he ex-

pressed, and advised her Majesty to use the expressions to
which he has adverted, I am afraid I must widely differ from
the conclusions to which he has come. I hold so far in
common with him, but lam afraid it is but a little way. I
shoald have wished that the transition with respect to the
corn-laws, from an extremely rigorous and exclusive system
to one of complete freedom of import, had been less abruptly
made. I believe myself, that if in 1840 or 1841 this House
bad adopted either the measure that I proposed then, or
a measure similar to that which was adopted in 1846,
either of those measures continuing for some years would
have prepared the agricultural interest for that complete
freedom of trade which now subsists; and I certainly

feel for any difficulties or distresses of the agricultural in-
terest, not only as it must always be one of the main sources
of the prosperity or adversity of this country, but likewise
as being of peculiar interest to me from my connexion with
the landed interest of the country. (So we understood the
Noble Lord ; but he spoke occasionally in a low tone, and
could not be distinctly heard.) But, while I say thus much,
I cannot think—l should be deceiving the Hon. and Learnd
Gentleman if I were to say that I think—the adoption of a
fixed duty in 1840 or 1841 would have been the foundation
of a system of permanent duties against the admission of
corn. I believe the progress of opinion, the increase of the
commercial and manufacturing classes, would have led, per-
haps before this time, to some such law as we now possess.—
(Hear, hear.) But, be that as it may, my opinion, de-
cidedly is, that with respect to corn you have adopted a system
which is consonant to the great interests of the country,
and, let me add, to the political and moral tranquillity of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) I believe that if, instead of pro-
posing in 1846 the abrogation of the corn-law, the Govern-
ment of that day had endeavoured to maintain it to the last,
they would have failed in their object ; that whatever ad-
vantage the agricultural interest might be supposed to derive
from the system which then prevailed they would have
failed to retain, but that in losing it they would likewise
have lost to the Government and the Parliament of this
country a great portion of the affections of the nation—
( Hear. hear)—and there would not have been only a loss to
the agricultural interest of the corn-laws, but a loss to the
authorities of this country of much of that respect and re-
gard which they ought to prize.—(Hear.) I therefore cannot
think that we adopted a plan at variance with the interests
of the country.— (Hear, hear.) I have never pretended to
say -- though others may have thought they had reason suf-
ficient, I certainly never thought I had to say—that a
particular price would prevail in a particular time. There
always seemed to me too many circumstances, too many
elements to enter into that question of price, for anybody to
perceive, certainly for some years to come, what the par-
ticular price of any article would be. I have never founded
myself, therefore, upon any ;other consideration than this—
that if there is a great manufacturing population, a great
commercial population, in a very thriving condition, and a
population accustomed to consume great quantities of food,
and if they can obtain it, more especially meat, and the
more costly articles of food, they who are close at hand, cul-
tivating the soil as the next neighbours, and in the
immediate vicinity of those who make this demand, cannot
fail ultimately to prosper from the continuance of that
demand.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot think that the agri-
cultural interest is totally to depend, as I think the
corn-laws induced them to suppose, upon the immediate
price of wheat in a particular month or year. It may be,
perhaps, that the continuance of this law induced the far-
mers of this country and the owners of land, especially in
particular parts of it, to look too much to the wheat crop
as the source of their remuneration. Great changes of
laws cannot fail to be accompanied with changes of
habits and manners, and there will be a corresponding
adaptation of soil to circumstances. No doubt great changes
will take place with respect to agriculture. But, as my
Honourable Friend (Mr. Peto) showed, with a large
population you have obtained much increased demand for
meat, so that you find, I think in Glasgow, some 30,000
more oxen sent to the market in one year than there were a
year or two before; and that as a sample will show, I think,
that agricultural productions must be in increased demand,
if you can, by your laws, or rather by the abolition of laws of
prohibition and monopoly, obtain a satisfactory and pros-
perous condition of the manufacturing and commercial inte-
rests.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) talks of
this being the second year in which the difficulties of the
landed interest have been mentioned. If lam not mistaken,
in 1836 and again in 1837 there was a price as low as that
which has lately prevailed, and I think on both those occa-
sions mention was made in the Speech, or immediately after-
wards, of the distress of the agricultural interest. Therefore
I cannot believe that any law you can pass, any such mea-
sure as the Hon. Gentleman hinted at, would secure the agri-
culturists from occasional prices too low for remuneration.
I need hardly allude to circumstances which at the present
time will influence prices. It has always happened that
when there has been a great dearth of any article, when
you have high prices, those high prices have been followed
by very increased production, and that increased production
again brings cheapness, cheapness brings increased demand,
and then you have high prices again. Now we all know
that in 1847 we were suffering in this country, and France
was likewise suffering, from the very high price of food; we
all know that then, although we were not blessed with a good
and equal harvest in this country, in France it was re-
markably propitious, and there is nothing I hear of more
than the accounts of the French wheat and flour reaching
this country, and the complaints of the French farmers that,
notwithstanding their protective system, there is a state of
unexampled depression. Bat the system we have adopted
must be considered as a whole ; it must be considered as
affecting very many articles of manufacture and many arti-
cles of agriculture ; and Parliament must be prepared to de-
cide, if the question should be brought before them, whether
this system is founded on; sound principle or not.—( Hear.)
Some quarter of a century ago, when Mr. Huskisson, was
introducing practically, and therefore somewhat timidly,
changes with respect to the duties on certain articles, he
took the article of gloves. For a long while nothing was
more frequent in this House than complaints that the manu-
facturers of gloves could not make them so good or cheap
as the French manufacturers ; that they must go to ruin ;
and we were implored to wear bad and dear gloves in order
to maintain the manufacturers of Yeovil and other places.
Mr. Huskisson persisted; and the arguments of the glove
interest were not so powerful as to induce the House to de-
part from its resolution. What do you hear, after the lapse
of some thirty-five years? I hear, from trustworthy sources,
that the glove manufacture never was so flourishing as it is
now at Yeovil—( Hear, hear)—that for eight or ten miles
round the labourers and their familial are asked to take em-
ployment in the glove trade ; and those gloves, which we
were told could not be made so cheap or good as by the
French makers, are now exported to France, where they
meet a ready sale.—( Hear, hear.) I certainly cannot hold
out to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman any expectation
that a fixed duty will be established on the proposition either
of this or of any other Government. Putting aside any pre-
judices that may be supposed to attach to the present Go-
vernment, I believe that any members of a Government
sitting on these benches would, when they came to investi-
gate the question—to inquire what was the opinion and dis-
position of the people—shrink from imposing any duty on
the importation of grain.—(llear, hear.) I don't believe a
ss. duty would be valued by the farmers who still cling to
protection in any other way than as a symptom of return to
the system of protection, and as an indication that a larger
duty or sliding scale would hereafter be imposed.—( Hear,
hear.) But that expectation on the part of the friends of
protection would alarm all those who value the measures
now in operation.—(Hear, hear.) Every account I hear
shows that in the agricultural districts, as well as in the ma-
nufacturing, the great mass of the labouring people never
had such a command of the necessaries of life as they have
at this moment.—(Cheers.) The number of loaves they
could obtain, though there may have been a change of wages,
is increased Such was the general state of the labouring
population. There were exceptions in certain counties—
where wages may have diminished in a greater proportion;
but I believe that, along with the power of obtaining a
greater quantity of bread, they have a greater remainder of
wages with which to purchase sugar at a diminished price,
and various other articles which they could not obtain before.
—( Hear, hear.) Many labouring families have fresh meat
that for years had scarcely seen fresh meat. Let the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, then, consider what a Govern-
ment would have to do who said to the mass of the
people, " You are now in the possession of more of
the necessaries and comforts of life than you ever had be-
fore ; but the system is entirely wrong, and you must revert
to the system under which the cost of your provisions will be
greater."—(Cheers.) I believe that a great proportion of
those who are favourable to protection, though they may
think that system a wise one for the country, have come to
the conclusion that it would not be wise for any Government
to attempt to revert to that system. I pass now to another
question, on which a great part of this debate has turned,
and on which there has been much discussion and excite-
ment in the country for the last three months. In doing so,
I must of course refer to the opinion of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), who began the debate,
and who blamed the Government, and me more especially,
for the part I have taken. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man said he approached this question with great pain • and
assured the House that he did not merely use the word, but
really felt great pain. Allow me to suggest to the Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman that his pain would be
diminished if he would not fall into that way of supposing
that some mean motives have always actuated parties
and the leaders of parties; and, that although they
may deer in opinion, they may have somewhat higher
motives than he would ascribe to them.—(Hear, hear.)
From his language it would appear that no other than those
very low motives have actuated public men, and that of one
party or another they have been influenced by some jealousy
or hope of acquiring popularity. According to his state-
ment, it would appear that when Sir Robert Peel proposed
to release Roman Catholics from the disabilities under which
they laboured, great jealousy was felt on the part of the Op-
position. This is a quite gratuitous assumption on the part
of the Hon. and Learned Member. We gave the utmost
support to that eminent stateman, who was then taking a
course we thought greatly for the benefit of the country,
and he expressed a grateful sense of the support we gave
him. We did not take credit for any heroic virtue. We
wished the welfare of the country, and were glad to see the
measure proposed. With respect to the letter I wrote to
the Bishop of Durham, it was not to make political capital
that I wrote it, but because I entertained the sentiments I
then expressed.—(Cheers.) Whether rightly or wrongly, I
could not refrain from giving expression to them, or giving
publicity to those expressions. (Hear, hear.) Perhaps
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman may in future
save himself the trouble which attends that pain,
if he will take rather a more charitable view
of the conduct of others, and refrain from exposing
himself to the reproach conveyed in an observation
made by the great Prince of Conde, when he was reading
some pamphlets written against him at the instigation of
Cardinal de Retz —" These gentlemen make us act just as
they would act if they were in our places."—(Cheers and
laughter.) With respect to the question which has occupied
public attention for the last three months in a very large
degree, I cannot take the view of the lion. and Learned
Member for Sheffield. Ido not doubt that he is sincere in
saying that the case is one of a mere use of titles, that it is a
matter of perfect indifference, and might have been left alone.
On the contrary, I think that, whatever may be the opinion
of Roman Catholics in different countries, the Court of Rome,
properly distinguished from the Church of Rome, is for ever
wishing opportunities of making aggression,— (Hear, hear,)
—and not upon the spiritual consciences, but on the temporal
interests of the kingdoms with which they have concern.—
(Hear.) Souse of the greatest friends of liberty, Sir John
Eliot, front whom the Earl of St. Germans is descended,
Pym, Hampden, Lord Somers, John Locke—all these_maeani
friends of liberty as they were, had great distrust of Papal
assumption and Papal aggression. What was the cioanrdeiptiProen.
of the Roman Catholics in this country? f
What
sented as if we Protestants, and I among tjofouritteimano.st, had
all of a sudden teen seized with a rage for
is the case? In 1791 Roman Catholic.s.
In 1829 they
plete freedom in the exercise of their_TzterhFitno
,!Peentr-e.Beaellowed corn-
a slit and hold all
obtained complete freedom to sit jninig
laws all fOavnovunr--
civil employments, with some trill
rious occasions alterations were made
With respect to the privileges
in oeo2u'reelPatwi?
able to the Roman Catholics•
granted in 1829- this Government at least cannot be blamed
whether in the Queens house-
hold,Catholics; for
by the Roman . •itrat. ion, or on the bench of jus-
or in the civil administration, or
jus-
tice, the talent, g(3121U1 "
at 911.C4 hake been Ackum.