The Sun.
London, England, 1851-05-07 00:00:00

THE

motion aaktd c
S a h el'fi. '
4 7 -
amo i catiOa of the system as would mincemeat of the session they were told that certain things
confer oi=the Irish and Scotch produce: the same advantages should be done as to the character of the country, and the
asureredeeedy enjoyed by the, foreigner. Chancellor of the Exchequer gave an intimation of what he
GIBSON said he had been a member of the Corn- • intended to propose. The result was that there dal not exist
t_e_it.te; dinquiry into.the subject of sugar-planting and rum a single great commercial house in the country that was not
and there certainly never was such a complication of evi• affected by the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
deice as. that produced upon this,question. As to the evi- The question was not, therefore, a party matter; the best
donee of the Chairman of the. Excise, to which reference interests as well as the character of the country were em-
bed been made, he must say; With every respect for the gen- corned in it; and if the House of Commons still kept them
tleMan alluded to, that he was always disposed to scrutinise in that state, like Mahomet's coffin, suspended between
Somewhat narrowly the evidence given by the head of any heaven and earth as regarded government, he (Mr. Roebuck)
revenue department, and he was also inclined to apply the appealed to the 'Noble Lord, as the responsible person,
!ame scrutiny to the statements made by individuals repre- whether he would continue to lend the authority of his name
praying
special interests, when they came to Parliament and character to' this state of things.—(Cheers.) Any
:LayMg -
an alteration of difeerentiat duties. The impression Minister that regarded not only the interests of the country,
de on his mind was, that on the whole 4d. was a fair dif- but also his own personal character, would not lend him-
ler ence 'to meet the disadvantages under which it was said self to such a condition.—(Cries of "Oh, oh!") He (Mr.
he wished
laboured as compared with colonial rum. But Roebuck) recollected when the party of the Noble Lord
f, . wished to call attention to the great advantages which put out the Administration of the Duke of Wellington,
this spirit interest now enjoyed in the United Kingdom. The that a member of that party, now in the other House,
Hon. Member talked about 'he fo-eigner, but what was the rose to ask Sir -Robert Peel whether lie was about to
position of Irish spirits as compared with foreign spirits? retain the Government.— (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
1-111 Irish spirits they had put a duty of 2s. Bd. a gallon; but lived en minorities.—(Cheers.) It was contrary to the in-
"lv much had they put upon foreign spirits? 15s. a gallon terests of England and the spirit of the Constitution that
+( hear, hear.) He was not prepared to alter the present any Administration should maintain itself by the difficulty of
"Mem until there had been an inquiry and proper evidence its position, and should live on the sufferance of i•s enemies
to show that the conclusions at which the Committee had —(Cheers)—should be daily insulted by these
✓ ceuquests—
neved were erroneous, and he wou d, therefore, give his (Cheers)—and should be unable to sdvance a single one of
vote against the motion of the Noble Lord. ' their own principles —(Cheers.) Therefore he (Mr. Roe-
Mr. HUME said he was only anxious to see the Scotch buck) asked the Noble Lord whether, now that he had sus-
:l', 14111er put upon the same footing as the rum distiller in tamped a fourth defeat on matters intimately connected with
ls
tiamaic, the Dutch gin distiller, or the importer of French the taxation of the country, and all its mercantile concerns, he
and)? • Some Hon. Members 00, his side of the House thought it were pelitic to retain possession of the Government?
were now mightily alarmed with the bugaboo of protection. He believed it would be more satisfactory to the desires of
(Hear, and laughter.) The word must not be mentioned those who wished to advance the great principles which they
newin the hearing of his Hor. Friends around him. This, advocated, if the Noble Lord would say that he would not
however, was no protection queetion. The object of the me- consent any longer to such a state of things. If the House
tion Was to secure equality. The difference of duty charged of Commons took upon itself the administration of affairs it
en foreign spirits has been alluded to, but that was a different should also take upon itself the responsibility of finding a
queetion. • With these views he would certainly support the Government. to rule the country.
motion. Lord J. RUSSELL—The lion. Member for Sheffield has
fStir2G. CLERK reminded the Hon. Member for Montrose asked me whether I intend to retain office under the present
:.tee diffieulty which existed when the Hon. Member first circumstances. He stated that he thought it would be inju-
iinl'ered Parliament in permitting any intercourse between rious to the country if I should do so, and that the core-
r e three diferent portions of the United Kingdom, with menial interests especially would suffer by that retention of
reference to the trade in spirits. Intercourse was, however, office. The Hon. Member has a perfect right to put any
li urnately permitted, to the great advantage of the coust'ry question of that kind—any question which affects the in-
!_ll general. Superadded to this a privilege was granted terests of the country ; but he has given me certain advice
which had never Previously been conceded to any articles with regard to my own personal character—(Loud cheers)—
chargeable with excise duties—namely, that they were which I must respectfully beg to decline.--(Cheers.) Giving
enabled to Warehonse their goods for an indefinite period, the Hon. Gentleman every credit for his good intentions, I
'and were not obliged to pay the duty on them till they were will take care of my personal character myself.—(Renewed
'taken out for home consumption. It was, however, an es- cheering.) Sir, at another period—at a period when the
ential art of the agreement entered into when the privi- government of this country was in abeyance, and those to
lee wasp granted that the amount of du. y should be charged whom it had been offered had not resolved to undertake the
lia,,_ttle quantity ascertained when the spirits were manufac- charge of forming a Government—the Hon. and Learned
I"'eee,u- Believing, therefore, that the arrangement made in Gentleman said in this House that he wished me to consider
aG2 had been attended with very great benefit to that part that the interests of the cause of free trade were in my
ee— the United Kingdom with which he was more particularly hands.—(Cheers and laughter.) What the Hon. Gentleman
Vineated, he should be very sorry to disturb it, nor had he meant precisely by that observation I will not pretend to
Oft ird any argument which tended to shake his conviction. say; but of this lam fully aware, that the general interests
tea, these grounds, and after the best attention he could devote of the country, not of free trade only, but its general in..
•'"! he subject, he had come to the conclusion that the Scotch terests, its welfare, its tranquillity, very much depends on
i:il" i Irish distillers had no fair claim to the favour which was the conduct of those who have at the moment the direc-
tee demanded for them, and he should therefore vote against tion of the Government.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, I have not
the motion. hesitated, when I thought that the direction of affairs ought
Q elonel DUNNE said it was clear that the Right Hon. to be taken out of our hands unless we succeeded in certain
Gent tleman who had just addressed the House did not at objects, to stake the existence of the Government on those
frost •nt represent a Scotch county. He (Colonel Dunne) questions and on those objects.- (Hear.) I did not hesitate
cud : not think it fair to levy the duty on an amount of to do so when the question of the repeal of the Navigation
lairi is which did not in reality exist for the manufacturer Laws was before Parliament. It was then frankly declared
nn e article. It was not true that the Irish distillery trade that we were prepared for the consequences of the rejection
4g prospered under the present system, for he found that of that measure, and it was fully understood that we should
'While, the quantity of Irish spirits manufactured in 1839 retire if that measure was rejected.—(Hear.) In the course
had , amounted to 12,000,0-10 of gallons, the quantity maim- of last year, differing from many who took other views with
facto; red in Ireland at present amounted to only 7,000,000 of respect to the suppression of the slave trade, I did not hesitate
gall°, pg. to declare that I would not retain office one hour after any
Th, e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the vote of the House which would be in opposition to the course
t_lttest ion was whether they should change the present mode then pursued.-(Hear.) But I think I have 'some right to
el, eauessing the duties on spirits, which was admitted by consider with my colleagues what is the fitting opportunity
all persons conversant with the subject to be the best and when I shall retain office, and when I should lay our resigns- I
rk, : safest mode that could be adopted. He believed that tion before her Majesty.—(Hear.) lam speaking now in
t hey were practically to re-establish that which had existed the absence of any direct question of a want of confidence,
Pr eviously to the year 1825—namely, a different mode of of which the result is perfectly plain—l am speaking with
.03 arging those duties in England, Ireland, and Scotland, respect to opinions. In the beginning of the present session
‘,ll ey would put an end to that interchange of spirits between did I show slide an anxiety for office as to make it necessary
1" e three countries which had proved so beneficial to the that the Hon. MeMber for Sheffield should be my monitor—
l'. ish and Scotch distillers. He believed that the adoption (Cheers and laughter)—and should inform me when the mo-
ot that proposal would open the door to a very considerable relent is come when, at his bidding, I should lay my resigns-
amt oust of frand. Under the present system the distiller paid tion before the Crown ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
the duty on the quantity of spirit which he placed in the says this is the fourth time we have been defeated. But
eroded warehouse, and it was for his advantage that no por- there is an observation which has been used, though couched
Lon, of that spirit should afterwards be abstracted. His in- in vulgar language, by Lord Castlereagh in this House,
tercet, and the interest of the representatives of the Excise when leading the Government party, which may be appli-
department, were in fact identical. But if the proposal before cable here. He said, with respect to a vote to which the
the House were adopted it would be the interest of the dis- House had come,to repeal a large portion of a tax, and
tiller to allow as large a quantity as possible of the spirit to when we cheeredloudly— he said—" I beg Gentlemen not to
be abstracted from the bonded warehouse without the pay- halloo until they are out of the wood."—(Laughter.) Let us
Theta of the duty. He believed that if that arrangement were observe now, with respect to these defeats to which the Hon.
adopted it would be necessary to impose very severe restric- Gentleman has alluded, one, the first, was with respect to a
tiOna on the distillers, with the view to the prevention of Bill of the Hon. Member for Surrey. After we came into
frauds upon the Excise. It was true that no Irish or Scotch office that question came again before the House, and the
distiller had been examined before the Committee of 1848, but decision to which it came was different, and the views which
English distillers had been examined, and had given it as 1 entertained were confirmed by a large majority.—(Hear,
their opinion that the proposed change would be one attended hear.) So that our first defeat was reversed by a subse-
'With considerable danger to the revenue. He denied that quent division. In another case we divided with respect to
any undue advantage was given by the present system to the the management of the woods and forests, and that is not
colonial producer, as compared with the home:producer. In yet decided ; for it not intended to act on the decision of the
order to prove that no such advantage was given, it was House. We intend to introduce a Bill on that subject a -
enough to state that there had been last year an increase in miler to the one of last year, and the House will then have
the consumption of Irish and Scotch spirits to the amount of a fair opportunity of deciding whether they will come or not
600,000 gallons, and a decrease in the consumption of rum to to the same decision which its majority did, or whether our
the amouut of 140,000 gallons, as well as a decrease in the plan is preferable for the management of the woods and
consumption of foreign brandy to the amount of 300,000 forests. So that in the present state of affairs that which I
gallons. The home producer had not therefore, it was clear, said ought to be done was defeated in one case, but it appears
been driven out of the market in consequence of the superior it was followed by a victory over those who had been the
advantages enjoyed by his colonial competitor. The Noble opponents of Government. The second case is not yet de-
Lord had told them that that was not at all a question of tided. I come now to the third case—the division which
revenue. But he differed from the Noble Lord upon that took place on the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose.
point. It was perfectly obvious that if the duty were to be Ido not consider that there was anything in the nature of
levied on a lesser quantity of spirits there must be a reduc- the motion of the Hon. Member as indicating that the House
tion in its amount, and that the revenue would proportion- meant to say that it intended to take the Government into
ately suffer. Again, he should further observe, that if they its own hands.—(Hear, hear.) All these questions of taxa-
were to grant that concession to the home-producer, they ton, and the burdens on the people, are questions on which
should grant some corresponding concession to the colonial the House of Commons has a particular claim to have their
producer; and there again there would be a loss to the re- opinions listened to, and the Executive Government may
venue. But if the revenue were to be diminished by reduc- very fairly differ from it without any cause of resignation.
tions of that description, it was clear that it would be ira- While they can maintain a sufficient revenue for the main-
possible to effect that change in the window-tax, or that di- tenance of the establishments which they consider necessary
eninution of the income-tax, which many Honourable for the safety and honour of the country, no financial differ-
'Members were so anxious to promote. The House ought ence with the House ought to influence their stability. We
to remember the division on the income-tax on Friday last; now come to the fourth defeat—the motion which the Noble
I end those Members who had then voted in the majority Lord has carried by thevote of this evening. To this:question
(a ught to bear in mind that it would be impossible I must apply the observations to*which I referred, because
to effect any diminution in the more objectionable taxes—if last year the Noble Lord was equally successful with another.
laves of a less objectionable character, such as• that under I think in the' end the House will be of opinion that the
their consideration, were to be reduced. He asked the House measure of the Noble Lord will not be adopted but by some
wheeeher any excessive duty was paid by the Irish distiller? arrangement of colonial duties which will put him on some
The English distiller paid a duty of 7s. 10d. per gallon on fair footing. This being my opinion, I shall not tell the
the spirits which he produced; the Scotch distiller paid a Hon. Member for Sheffield that his request, made with that
duty of Bs. 8,1. per gallon; and the Irish distiller paid a suaviter in modo—(Laughter)—for which he is celebrated
duty of only 2s. Bd. per gallon. That surely was an arrange- (Hear, hear) - shall be complied with ; I will not tell him
ment of which the Irish distillers could not reasonably corn- what other course I mean to pursue on the present occasion.
plain. He appealed to those Members who were ready to This is a matter of grave import—the character of a Govern-
:maintain the public credit, and at the same time were desi- ment ought not to be sacrificed, or even impaired, by sub-
rous of seeing reductions effected in the more objectionable mating to frequent defeats—(" Hear, hear," from the Oppo-
and unpopular items of taxation, not to assent to a motion sition) without declaring that they could no longer carry
auch as that then under their consideration. on the government of the country; and at the same time,
Mr. NAPIER said he believed that the vote of Friday on the other hand, no one will deny that the resignation of
'last showed that the House would not maintain a duty at the a Government, under present circumstances, is a very grave
4expense of a perpetual injustice.—(Hear, hear.) It was be- matter, and involves very grave consequences.—(Cheers.)
!cause he thought that motion a fair and a reasonable one Some may think the consequences of that grave matter may
'that he gave to it his support. Much stress had been laid lead to good fortune, and seine to bad : but whether of good
'Upon the evidence of the English distillers upon that point; or bad fortune, no'one can deny that it is a very grave and
but he denied that the English distillers were disinterested important movement, not merely to that question of free
:Parties in the case. Those distillers made use of bonded trade to which the Honourable and Learned Member for,
warehouses to a very trifling extent. It appeared that while Sheffield once alluded—(Hear, hear)— but also with regard
'the English distillers had only bonded 11,814 gallonf of dpi- to many other questions of domestic and foreign policy that
Tits, the Scotch distillers had bonded 7,000,000 of gallons, might be affected by a change of Government in present cir-
and the Irish distillers had bonded 6,000,000 of gallons. cumstances.—(Hear.) All I can say is, that I trust that those
The fact was, that the English distillers, who were only eight who have generally supported the Government, and as such
in number, enjoyed a practical monopoly, and had no occa- have taken up our views with regard to public policy, will,
Con to put their spirits in bond The distillers of Ireland give us credit for doing for every interest in the country
felt that they were subjected to an injustice in that case, and what is required by the situation in which we are placed
they would never rest until that injustice was removed. - (Hear)—that we are not disposed on the one baud to.
Mr. A. HASTIE supported the motion. There could be allow the character of the Government to be unpaired; it •
310 justification for imposing on distillers the necessity of is from no sense of affront—from no irritating feeling of
;paying a duty on that quantity of spirits which was lost by pique, I should make so important a decision as the res gnua.
leakage and evaporation. That quantity had been stated to tion of our offices with the view of changing the Govern•
amount to not less than 21 per cent. talent of the country.—(hear, hear.) The change of a
Lord J. RUSSELL said he considered that as a motion to Government is not a question to be bandied about in a chance
Reduce the duty on Scotch and Irish spirits, because he debate—(Hear, hear)—and I must ask the Reuse to leave it
thought it was perfectly obvious that if the duties that were to us to make that decision. Taking it as I shall do with a
(originally fixed with a view to have them charged in the view to the general welfare of the country, I shall not have
Wray in which they were at present charged, and if the to reproach my own conscience with having deserted any in-
tioolount of spirits on which they were raised, were diminished, te -est which I was bound to uphold.—(Cheers.)
'the duties themselves should necessarily decrease. It was The House then went into Committee, Mr. BEPSAL in the
' not true that any injustice was done to the Irish distillers in chair.'
• that case, for while the Irish distillers paid a duty of A resolution was proposed by Lord NAAS, in accordance
telly 2s. gd. a gallon, colonial rum in Ireland was paying a with the tenor of his speech. It was understood th A the
. d uty of 35., and French brandy and Spanish rum were pay- resolution was opposed by the Government, and there were
log a duty of not less - than 15s. Therefore it is obvious loud cries, which lasted several minutes, for a division.
that we would, by adopting the motion, give an Mr. HUME rose to speak, but was for some time inaudi-
advantage to the Scotch and Irish distiller over the planter ble amid cries of "Divide, divide." He said the Noble Lord
and the importer of foreign spirits. It therefore becomes had acted rightly in the reply which he gave to the question
a question of revenue; and this is not, in my put to him. It would put an end to proceedings in that
opinion, a time when it can be reduced. 1 know no Mouse it a Minister were to resign upon every question of
More proper limit to a duty upon spirits than that it should mere financial difference that might arise. He would submit
not be so high as to encourage fraud and illicit distillation. to the Noble Lord, parties having left the House after the
If that is not the case at present, and if, as my Hon. Friend first division, under the impression that there would be no
• has stated, Irish and Scotch spirits have increased in quan- other, whether it would not be more in conformity with the
tity, that is a reason, in my opinion, why I should not part dignity of his station if he would allow that resolution to be
with the revenue. I cannot, therefore, agree to the motion, agreed to without another division. - (Loud cries of "Divide,
sts I not prepared either to give the home manufacturer divide.") - a
sin advantage over the colonial manufacturer or consumer, Lord J. RUSSELL said, in answer to the last question,:
nor to give up the revenue which it involves. which the Hon. Member for Montrose had put to him, he
Mr. DISRAELI —The Noble Lord admits the justice of could say that he.should leave it entirely in the hands of the
the proposition, but he says it is no brought forward in a Noble Lord opposite who had made the motion. He thought,
proper manner.—(Hear.) " If," said the Noble Lord, "it it was perfectly fair to take onother division on that quese.
was in detail it might be entertained ; but as it is a reduc.. tion ; and he did not think the Noble Lord could impute tea
tion of duty, we cannot take it. We admit there is oppres- them a desire to take'any unfair advantage, as they would not_
sion, but this is not exactly the manner of relieving it that impute it to him. But he believed that the House was fuller
heeLoarra)B4Tyshis is always the official then than it was before.
the English and Scotch
yaroguupinreoupto.se.'l'
Lord NAAS said the remark with which the Noble Lord
le(lallot.ie
distillers must submit to taxation, while the French and had concluded was the worst he could have said; for they
• tillers should be exempt.
i Spanish distillersground That duty is paid by had divided in a House in which the Members had been at-
' the consumer ; but ouru
er.is,(cheethat this is a duty that tentive listeners to the debate.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
1 presses on the prod
s this—to
producer.—(Cheers.) The system which it was rather hard for the Noble Lord to ask for another divi-
-1 :he Government upholds i benefit the con. sion on teat question, as those Members who had recently
t ;timer, and to leave the producer subject to urgent entered the House had no opportunity of hearing the debate
t estriction.—(Cheers.) I thought the Noble
Lord and his on the subject. A different course was proposed then to what'
(He
e alleagues were opposed to thispoliciyn.
1 noble Lord lass found. a refuge —the ar, hear.) The had been pursued last year, for when a motion had been
has increased. But, supposing •
fallacy that the carried, no opposition had been offered to a resolution named
ti aide in spirits
that is it because the trade
if is prosperous it should be putting in writing the principle to which they had agreed,
prosperity and he did not think such a course would be adopted to
tt Laud ?—(Cheers.) And we canh showth
that stated,
this.
inot this '
oe du
ys
ei n ,__• and I
wards him.
a tywing to other circ.unefutucresetf *tube
mautsivantedu,fi
a ft father argument in my Noble Lord J. RUSSELL said the circumstances of the case of,
g this last year were different from the present. Last year the
F ti end?—(l-lear, hear.).uTthhee
handsinode eoffthreeHm
81 rievance is easy—
public the
Noble. Lord had had a majority of those who thought with,
decision is
of in
night will, like that on Friday, hire. tall hat that the ion of the routine of the This year-he had only had his majority by the vote of
-• low that the stereotyped nature Speaker, who had declared that he only voted in confor-
aaid he
o' ices is to receive another check in the interest of the mity.with usage, to give another opportunity for consider,
jug the •
ei Antrv.-- (Cheers.) course, he mightr adopt it.— (Cries of " Divide.")
words troth
The House then divided, when there appeared 7
For the motion ... ... ••• 15 , !lELD rose to address the House, but not
.. ••• 159
• Against it • • '• ' fa moved that the Chairman should report
hearing,
then ordered to withdraw, but no division
would divide upon the question.
In Lord J. RUSSELL,
The SPEAKER having, according to castolmet,t
ivuotaeuld
ifuorertihtye prsogtrraenssgNe,eaer:::A7lrees
said
id
heo
re otion the Government were consequently
of one; the announcement of which was received with loud tooLAkoftrpedlraa
few
oh .eers.
on the understanding would agree to the suggestion made;
brought on, the divisi t when next the question was

THE MINISTRY.
Mr. ROEBUCK then rose to refer to the extraordinary
eu xumstances in which the Governinent was pl aced. —( He ar. )
TI ye House of Commons had now assumed to i.self —he would
oc .t say without just cause—not Ohly the supervision of the
rvernment, but also the actual Government itself.- (Cries
of " Oh," and " Hear.") He could well understand how it
sh, auki be that some disappointed followers of the Govern-
ml sat would object to this proposition; but when he saw the
ventment obliged to modify all the three modes or plans
oft tatration which they had introduced, by the decision of
the house of Commons, he appealed to the Noble Lord him-
seli as a man brought up in constitutional principles- as a
ram r t educated in the idea that the House of Commons had a
eup trvising power over the Government, whether he was
!"319 in a position to govern the country ?—(Great cheer-
ing* ) He (Mr. Roebuck) believed these were the prin-
es, of the Noble Lord. Was the Noble Lord, therefore,
mss'
io 4 -was he politic—he would say nothing as to the point of
our-..t0 retain the powers of Government in his hands
tangy b r such circumstances?—(Cheers.) The House should
11144 le wand IThgt was ping 411 is the country. At the com-

aroug ~ Ision Should in the first instance take
.
when the question came on'
again, it should Stand in the same
place on his resolution.
that
position in which it now'
Lord J. RUSSELL said,
tiede
wells t it oh
tneo
Hundersortand whether a di.:
whether it was in-',
stood.—(Cries of "Divide.")
the Chairman report
House
progress?"tenTdi eied
divide
i (HATEI-i G d Me 'onN
mouldt h aebseqk
vision was to take place on that point
divide) lle then put the question, and declarednot._ not._
(Hear, and
the " Noes"
had it.
The Chairman then vacated the chair, and the 4
House'
resumed.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and asked leave
to sit rgain on Friday.
ST. ALBAN'S ELECTION COMMITTEE.
Mr. E. ELLICE then rose to ask leave to introduce a Bill
for the appointment of Commissioners to inquire into the ex'.
istence of bribery-in the borough of St. Alban's. He telt,
he was bound to satisfy the House that there were grounds