The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-11 00:00:00

GRANT TO MAYNOOTH.

Mr. SPOONER wished to ask whether the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer intended this year to propose a
grant to Maynooth.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the general expenses for
Maynooth were provided for by an Act of Parliament
passed three years ago, and he was not aware of any
extra expenses which required to be provided for by an
extra grant this year.
JEWISH DISABILITIES.

Sir R. H. INGLIS inquired whether the Noble Lord,
in giving notice of his motion for the removal of Jewish
disabilities for Thursday night, bad considered whether
Hon. Members who had motions on the paper would give
way to him on that night?
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had not considered that,
but he was anxious to bring it on as soon as possible, as
the house had passed resolutions on the subject at the
close of last session.
NAVY ES TIMATES.

On the motion for, that the Speaker leave the Chair,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that, as the Chancellor of
the Exchequer intended to make alterations in his
Budget, ho should move that no votes be taken
until the intended alterations were stated.—(Hear.)
In. 1848, the House would recollect, that after various
statements had been wade respecting the estimates for
the Army and Navy, and Ordnance, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had consented to greatly modify the
amount of the expense. He did hope that a similar
course would be pursued on the present occasion. He
would only refer to the reports of former years, and
he thought that after the House bad heard the facts
which he had to state sufficient reason would appear for
an alteration in the plan now laid before them by the
Government. By a reference to those reports, he
found that in 1830 the Duke of Wellington,
the highest authority that could be adduced
on military matters, had for 138,954 men,
asked the country to grant 8,491,0571., less by
2,442,0001. asked by the Government this year, though
they only wanted 122,000 men. In the last year of
Earl Grey's Administration, in 1834, the number of
men proposed was 136,332 and the money 7,918,5931.,
less than the money asked for this year by
3.015,0001. It was also worth while to notice, that in
1835, Sir Robert Peel asked for 135,820 men, with a
sum of 7,146,9524, being 3,787,0004 less than the
money now demanded from the House. He would
now ask the House to remember that 3,000,0001. was
more than the amount of window-tax and paper duty,
and went far to meet the liquidation of the income-tax.
He trusted that the House would never agree again to
the exorbitant increase which had been made in the
military establishment of the country. In his opinio❑ it
was disgraceful. Talk of the Duke of Wellington's Go-
vernment, why that Noble Duke had set an example
to the present Government in the reductions he made in
the army, and no man in the kingdom knew better the
necessities of the country than the Noble Duke. The
Hon. Member concluded that no supply should be voted
before the amended Budget was presented to the House.

Mr. HUME thought the House ought to have some
explanation with respect to the estimates before they
went into a Committee.

Sir F. BARING said he should give the necessary
explanation when the House waa 'al Committee of Sup-
ply.—(Eiear, hear.)

-The SPEAKER then put the question that the House
should go into a Committee of Supply on the Nary
Estimates, and also the amendment of the Eon. Mem-
ber for Lambeth.

Mr. WILLIAMS declining to press his amendment
to a division,
The House resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.
Sir F. T. BARING said, that when he had to open
the estimates last year he found it to be his first duty to
call the attention of the House to a vote for a large sum
for an excess of expenditure occurring in former years--
an excess over the votes agreed to by the House. This
sum amounted to 211,000/. This had been rendered ne-
cessary by the coarse previously pursued during several
years, but it was his firmest intention, in conformity
with the opinions which he had long entertained, and in
conformity with the recommendations of the House of
Commons, so to frame the estimates as to prevent a re-
petition of such occurrences, and he hoped that that
would prove the last time when such a proceeding would
be resorted to, unless, indeed, under the pressure of ex-
treme circumstances; for it appeared to him that no-
thing less than absolute necessity justified any excess of
expenditure over votes. Those gentlemen who took the
trouble to look at the papers settiug forth the receipts
and expenditure for the current year weuld find that he
did slot call for a vote for excess. A certain sum had been
voted last year, and the actual expenditure was nearly
400,0001. under that. Although the financial year was
not yet complete, and the exact data had not
yet been furnished, yet he was enabled to
state that there was reason to expect a consider-
able surplus this year, comparing the expenditure with
the money voted. He mentioned that first, because he con-
sidered it to be of deep importance in a constitutional
point of view. It was most important that the House of
Commons should see what the full amount of expendi-
ture was likely to be. If they got the habit of voting
so much, and that the actual expenditure came to a
higher sum, and that arrears from excess of expenditure
had to be annually provided for, Parliament would
abandon its proper control over the public finances. He
repeated that he wished to mention this in the firstin-
stance as he desired to call the attention of the House to
the modes in which estimates might be made up. Thhear,
ere
were two modes of making up estimates.—estimates.—(Hear,and cries of " Order.") He said he should endesvour to
make himself heard as well as indisposition would permit,
but ho was labouring under a popular disease, which
somewhat interfered with the duty he had to perform.--
(Hear) There were two modes of framinge estimates;
one one was taking a sanguine view of thea afterwards the
the efivm'ilni o
the expenses low; but in two yearsintf!
The other mode
was to state the expenses high, so a
such a plan always became appare 8
to
derrble margin, with an assurancethatthere would be
more than enough for the demands of the service.
The latter was the course which he had taken, and it
would, be had little doubt, be found that the present
estimate was larger than the actual expenditure would be.
During the last two years the actual expenditure had
been 700,000/. fot those two years below the vote which
happen,Parliament
dhad
under
ordinary sanctioned,
circumstances,and
the actual, unless anything should
expenditure for the ensuing year would be within the
estimate which he now called upon the House to rote.
The first vote was the vote for the men. He should pro-
pose the same number of men as last year. But the ac•
tual sum required for the payment of these men was
greater than last year, and he would explain the reasons
for this increase. With regard first to the number of
men, that question it was for the Government to settle as
a Government, after a full consideration of the circum-
stances of the time. But in that House it was extremely
inconvenient to discuss this question, because it could not
be entered into without raising subjects which it was not
well for those in office to discuss. The amount of naval
force necessary to defend our commerce and our shores
determined the number of men required. Now the Go-
vernment were not disposed to look with jealousy to the
proceedings of foreign Governments, but it was impos•
bible to determine what was necessary for our own es-
tablishment without looking to the establishments of
foreign countries; and we had a sufficient proof last
year that a gallant, au able, and intelligent people, not
far from our own shores, had not by any means ne-
glected their naval establishments and their naval power.
And those gentlemen who were at Cherbourg last sum-
mer, and who partook of the courtesy paid to English
visitors, must have come back with the conviction that
the French were not quite satisfied to rest their naval
establishments upon the Peace Congress (so we under-
stood the Right Hon. Gentleman). The estimates of
1835 and 1836 had been referred to, but they had al-
ways been considered as framed for a particular occasion,
and were not estimates upon which the country could
permanently rely.
Mr. WILLIAMS—I referred to 1834.
Sir F. T. BARING—The number of men voted in
1835 and 15136 was 26,500. The last French vote was
for 25,000, end when the lic:use, looked at the greater de-
mand for the naval force of this country for the protection
of our colonies and our widely extended commerce, as
compared with that of France, they would see that the
number of men voted in, 1835 would not be sufficient

-----------
when a foreign Power had voted 25,000 The compari-
son between the increase in our naval establishment since
1835 up to the present time, and the rate of Loebincres is
the French navy durieg the same period, ought
stated to the House. In 1835 the expenditure
on ac-
count of the Fret oh navy was 2,549,2721.; in 1851 it was
4,284,9601., being an increase of 1,735,6681. Probably
those who referred to our estimates of 1835 as the sta
dard would not expect to find that enormous increase in
the proportionate expenditure upon the French navy.
With regard to the estimates for oar own navy, the ex-
penses of the packet service deceived us.
That large
expenditure was not included in the estimates of 1835.
The navel expenditure of 1835 was 4,271.6741., awhileo
1850, 5,598,302/, being an increase of 1,326,628/o
as he had stated, the French increase had been 1
The fact that the vote for the wages of the men Wos
greater than last year arose from Several causes. 111
the first place, some of the men were receiving higher
pay, as in the Arctic Expedition, where the men were
receiving double wages, and in some smaller vessel§
they were receiving an increase. There had been'
indeed, a gradual tendency to an increased scale of psi'
Another cause of the increase was the new arrange:
,735,00/.
m racent with regard to victualling. Last year he obtained
thel sanction of the House to an alteration in the ptice
wth regard to grog. This alteration had led to an
ditionalad'
expense, but it had had the effect of transferrieg
a charge which had heretofore belonged to the ictual-
ing department to the charge for wages,
seemed larger than in former years. The liberal coral
mutation for spirits had been accompanied with some
other changes, one being an increase of pay, end t:
ether, of more importance in the vote, being the fae-
cal@ of victualling to the navy. The result had been
a considerable improvement in the system of PaYniehti
and also in the victualling, which brought the sealuen
much nearer in both respects to the merchant service'
which thet§
and to the condition of the seamen in other naviee'
He sincerely believed it would be a great benefit toe //tithed
merchant service to prosecute that system. Il
been told that this was a difficult question, yet irit he the ueer
arrangement had been received in a frieudly s wi,
,
Parliament, and also by those immediately conPcerto,rf
(The Right Honourable Gentleman, who epoke ie,l3.e!
very low and indistinct voice, was here assured by
oi.. et
Hume, and other Members who sat behind biro', th
they "could not hear a word.") The information be
had received from the commanders-in-chief
wee
that they had reason to be very well satisfied wit"(
the new arrangements. They said that the &moony°
the higher punishments had diminished in consequet'
So far as experience had gone, therefore, the experiencel
of the Admiralty with regard to the new arrangerneeor
velatiee to the grog was satisfactory. Upon the two nett
otes, the Admiralty and the scientific branches, 014
s: ks no diminution. In the Admiralty there was a graue„.
Yet. this increase was in reality
increase arising from the addition in the time of servic_.
vice, because a diminution under this head arose frog'
the superannuation of the older clerks. It would be earl
by superannuating halt-a-dozen clerks, to reduce the co!!
of this department, because these superannuations wouldoUla
appear among the civil allowances, where they „
much more than counterbalance any advantage arisbitis
an advantage to the se_
from the decrease in the present vote. Very few le
retired during the last year, and that was the airnijc„
reason why the Admiralty establishment had beco e,
more expensive. The vote No. 4, for the Register 8001
Record-office of Seamen, did not appear in the Prreds9 ei
estimates, having been transferred to the no- es
Trade. This vote would appear in them iscellane9o9l,
estimates. He now came to vote No. 6, of ,34'o6teet
for her Majesty establishments at home --'lll ,r-here
words, fur the expenses of the dockyards. re,
was a reduction of 15,000/. in the expenditure in the bee,
sent estimate; and considerable reductions had floe
going on during the last few years. The number, c 1.,,,
pourers in factories, &c., including hired workmen; ."13,1
were 12,862, being a reduction of 2,352 hired
13,214 on April 1, 1848; on the Ist of March, 1851, ' '
in the dockyards. With regard to this part of the ex"
_._..,
pendituro he believed that unless anything turn
the Government would be able gradually to Wake feat
reductions in these establishments. But be calcu 0
of
un a greater saving with regard to the exPetis7 8,
building ships, and he would come to the votes 6, bine,
9, 10, and 11, which related to the building of 0,1 (;,o1
The reduction in these items for the year 1851.2 "rival
Ibe, as compared with the year 1848-9' no, less,. ethr
,256,271 i. But the actual expenditure in the tette. leli.
mates`
somewhat greater than in the votes, while the :be
test of the ensuing year would be wrong 11P°13 or
otherb side. The reductions made in the chargeoics
building ships had been upwards of lope`one-thiriciabaltirhrle-
the last two years. The vote for stores was much 1.5•
than it had been for a great number of Yee
3 was
The vote was less by 41,806/, than 1 r for
last year, and the vote had been getting lON enc.
a number of years. He should not claina 1-0,,,
credit if it were effected by leaving the store:ere;
complete, but he had reason to believe that the s., 0
were as well able to meet the demands of the 13 itirne.
they needed to be, and as they had been for
da
to
real,
And any reduction which had been effecte vearo•
andTh would not have to be made up in future e nee
There was a reduction of 41,450/. in the vote for nee by
works. The dead weight, or half-pay, bad fallecoo3ite
se
ii
onco lin theit
hh
ee otherfhe rodeo!i
edtic el-
- 28,000/. The more ships there were in c . 04
aw lef-rhphshydw, officersiofu
lidtbheebrreee
wlwaerreger
ee
r.O
fewpontinuh
tt
phi 1 f"P 10 to ei
i. 19,059/ had taken place in the half-pay, and this, r„ fete
foiornwas gradually going on. The increase in the Go-
ttobethe mercantile interest. They had
the packet service arose from the anxiety of tee .o 0
vernment to give the means of additional cou3lllll rse of
[dot
in the couo of
though 45 00/.
provision for the Post-office 13erial also
the year made
withthe westernc coast of America and the 13ratile, f&:1.. frota
service ,
Plymouth."ppose t° aced
hr_ard tue en He could not, therefore,
eafddGitoioendalHwoapse,reqbyui sr teedatn::::.efroaill:
on
ear, any objection would be Wade °ditto()
thekpart of the public. That increased exPece net
all: nor'
place for the purpose of commerce,
for these se military services for which the othee`..fese
!eon of the votes were appropriated. The net dc. Wit!
in the estimates for the ensuing year as greateorapareaer
the past was 181,0931., which would have been jail.
bat for the additions to the sailors' pay and pro/19.00e
If it were not for the increase in consequence Of `Lrter
alterationso he might have had a diminution of a C1,11%r),
___f a million compared with last year.—(llear, -hear),
He had now been connected with the A.dmiralty fbi act.
Years, and the Committee weuld not think he °low
ing wrongly if he stated the result of his ada3int roe
lion. He was anxious to do so, not that he nligicite but
the credit of the reductions that had been made' itiof
because it was due to the House and the country le'rrb,..--
the real truth, as inaccurate reports had eone,o,°otes in
(Helm.) He did not look to the amount of estimates
eat
any given year. The real criterion was the Betas
i,eo
penditure. The actual expenditure for the Pi'Volia
could not begiven with exactness, because they ear
0 ere
not terminate until the 31st of March; but vi,'lweet be
near that day that he had no doubt be shall' --, pre
very far wrong. The actual expenditure of 1843'1 of
7.955,000/.; the actual expenditure of 18 ,;g30,50° Al'
6,362,500/4 which was a reduction of lee'ieli 130'
It he deducted a part of the ex enditure which fece,
been transferred, viz., for courts and Reg,ts„tder ell
92,5001., he found that the reduction effec"--ociaolP-,
his two years of office had been 1,500,0001. lee! e'e°o3o9'
expenditure of 1850-51.—(Hear, hear.) That, in o
ut
think, was not a small sum to have reduced laid ore
branch of the public service.—(Hear, hear•) °Lb- efor°
wish to compare himself with those ho had gc7ooo3lce:
him at the Admiralty, but as the able and l'i joie,
administrationurab of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Tr
di 90
Graham), under the Administrationf the late gY,
Grey, was often referred to in
terms
fodeserod eolotse
hie o begged to be permitted to com of
his.fadinailieinstle.
mars,
owf
btowobayrrs with that of the Right Oc -0000'
acquired a great reputation for hisld take
mica! administration of d• 3 !Nu' 600'
expen iture.
the whole of the R' rainietrs 4.5
In 1830 thelht Hon. Baronet's a , -„, 14,5
. naval expenditure 8 800‘.• 1" tO
the Right Hon. den was 5,76 -e„..ce'd it .vg
4w,h621e61;800/., so that
in
the
emoan hadof
fo u"
rur resided
duriths
the Right Hon. Gentleman
ehad
presided of,e.r 08
had Admiralty, he effected a reductionll of 1,140001000 a
deducted the charges which had been trans a he
during the
would his
(Sir F. B ;
-ar-ng's) two years of office,
also deduct a sum of 142,102/. for t"ebergeo
guard,
upon which if he recollected rightly, was !lotion
of
his the Customs. During the adinifil! , re-
Right Honourable Friend there via' at tbe
ductio
same i? of 1,000,000/. in the naval expenditure; seer
time he would tto fbl* the
venture to suggest nod on ,
bers, when they heard the abuse that wasp thee present'
Admiralty
for profligate expenditure, tha ,500,0001.•
Government had reduced the expenditure .t, r tbe
061 of e a
and that d • tiring the two years he bad Pr" , than bad
department the reduction had been grear,e. Years' and
ever before been made in the previous tv'',',7flOriel Pee-
h. e believed that, by a little attention to t" in future
ing through their hands, they might be able go 10011 ed
years to reduce the •
s her. le
that he "
with some degree of doubt at the atten3Pts logell
recommended in ,co very i.iit
other quarters to recto
attempt of ghat
and very suddenly the naval force. An 1 was that
kind was made a few years ago, and the resit tf the W
his Right Hon. Friend the present Chancellor 0 1,,,, had
chequer, when he was Secretary of the Mlo'ie did in ,
to defend the course of the GovernMent, ss bote., had
very able speech, and his defence was, not `bat °dr the
spent less, but more than their predecessorsto riot
navy, for the charge against them then ,w riot
they had cut down the naval force too mile"' beguer?
he (Sir F. Baring) was Chancellor of the Eo.4„„tos
the late Sir R. Peel used to observe that their ese'cretion
had increased very much, and held out souse ell3/3000e
of reducing them ; but when the Right liert.'n,opt I'lle
came into office, although he believed an ati rr-f, tare
%Bode to reduce the naval estimates, it soon o°,o Course
otf ail
way, and in 1845 they began again t- fie
. large increase in the expenditure of tbe 014/)::, voy
thought these ups and downs in the fihar,oes great doll
ofere not politic.—(Hear.) He had had norit§
abuse, and bad not gained mach reputation,
find that
believed that those who came after him would oiotle,
a considerable reduction of expenditure had been:ji," tie
and that at the same time the establishment a ewes
country had been kept up la as full and goo°,o oil
of efficiency as ever. The administration of Le oow
had been condected upon an economical, but net bad beeo
gardly system; and at the same time there ~foe
much improvement in the condition of the (.°,,`"r we
sailor—(Hear)—not a cheap process, but one o,7bere.
no trifling advantage now, and would, he believen bor,)
after be of great service to the navy.—(Sear•-•ee ac'
The packet service had also been extended to gt a or)
--(v.°
commodation to the commerce of the country , been
—and those lines of communication which I3eued the
proposed by himself and his Right Ilon. FrieL!,.. jif-
were to
to
. ~ llor of the Exchequer, when they
Chane •
ferent offices, hecl been lecreasek, and extended lieiiht
estimates he Los submitted to the House. Th° cato'
Hon. Baronet then concluded by moving thet the feet
be
of men voted for the naval service oft
the
1851.2 be 39,000.