The Sun.
London, England, 1851-02-18 00:00:00

built in this country hare ineremeed, those of a mend
class have decreased, and it was with a view to counter-
act that effect of the duty that I proposed last
year a modification of the drawback system,
relating to timber.—(Hear, hear.) I now think the best
course we can pursue is entirely to do away with this
system of drawback, and at the same time to reduce the
duty upon the raw material of foreign timber.—(Hear,
hear.) I do not know that many thanks are
due to me for what I did last session; but some Hon.
Gentlemen opposite concurred with me in the opinion I
Oren propounded, and I have found since that the
alteration has been a great benefit to agri-
culturists who have been necessitated, by the
improved methods of tillage introduced into agriculture,
to erect timber buildings on their land.—(Hear, hear.)
I propose, therefore, to follow up that change, and to
reduce the duty upon foreign timber to one-
half the present duty.—(Hear, hear.) At present
the duty on sawn timber is 205., and upon hewn timber
155., and I propose to reduce it to a uniform duty of 10s.
Some parties might wish that I should go further on
this point, but I can only say that even
if I were prepared to take off the whole
duty, I should not feel disposed to go further at present,
because I think there is not yet sufficient competition
in the foreign market to bring down the price, and there-
fore the reduction would go entirely into the pockets
of the grower instead of the consumer.--(Hear, hear.)
I theretore only propose to reduce the duty one-half,
which I think will be an advance as well to the British
shipbuilder as to the British agriculturist.—(Hear.)
I think under no circumstances, therefore, ought the
reduction of these duties to be more than one-half the
present amount. There is one other item, which I have
already mentioned, on which I propose to reduce the duty.
I allude to the duty on seeds. In this respect the agricultu-
rist suffers consicleratle injustice. I believe it to he the
only duty which the agriculturist exclusively pays, and
which I think he ought not to be required to pay. The
amount of duty, no doubt, is not large, but it obviously
raises that which is the raw material on which the farmer
enaploys his industry. The duty on clover and grass seed
alone amounts to 30,000/. out of the 3,500.0001. received
under this head. I remember heariug from a great
farmer in the north of Englard, when the former reduc-
tion of the duty took place, that he actually saved in his
purchases of clover seed the whole amount of the income-
tax which he paid. The press nt duty on foreign seeds is
55., on colonial seeds 21. 6d., and I do not believe,
in point of feet, that any colonial seeds are imported into
the country, and this, therefore, is one of those dif-
ferential duties which I regret were enforced in 1842.
I propose then to get rid of this differential duty alto-
gether, and to reduce the duty on foreign seeds o
one shilling, The amount of loss on that will be
30,000/. I have already stated that the loss by the reduc-
tion of the duty on timber will be 286,0001. These are
the proposals which I intend to make with regard to the
reduction of taxation. Honourable Gentlemen will
remember that on more than one occasion an appeal
has been made to the Government to place on the
Consolidated Fund a portion of the burdens on land.
Now I don't mein to do this to the very large extent
which has been contemplated. My own belief is that it
is impolitic, for reasons I have so constantly given,
to remove any of those burdens from realized
property, and transfer them to the consumer.
or to the industrious artizan, and therefore to impede the
means of comfortable existence. lam firmly convinced,
that if I were anxious to bring about a social revolution
in this country, I should above all things urge
a system of centralization in these matters,
throwing the responsibility of all local ad-
ministration on the Government, and imposing
on the central Government the duty of meeting all these
charges. It is quite obvious that parties resident on
the spot are better able to check lavish expenditure in
regard to local burdens, and have every inducement to
keep the expenditure to the lowest point;
but our recent experience in Ireland has
shown how great a disposition there is to swell expen-
diture when the parties superintending it have not to
pay the money out of their own pockets. I believe, how-
ever, that if all responsibility were brought to bear on
the Government in times of popular excitement, a
degree of unpopularity would attach to the Government
which no Government could withstand, and the worst
of revolutions might be brought about by local distur-
bances which, under the present state of local govern-
ment, would be arranged by the local magistrates and
the local committees.—(Hear, hear.) I believe the
safety of the country depends on the number of persons
who take a share in the local administration, the magis-
trates, juries, boards of guardians, and local commis-
sioners for lighting and paving the different Owns.—
(Hear, hear.) Therefore I should be sorry to see a
disposition to displace the local administration, and
vast it in a central government.—(Loud cheers.)
I think, however, on looking over and considering this
subject, there is one charge, a portion of which might be
put on the Consolidated Fund, without incurring any of
the dangers I have mentioned. It is a charge which
has been recommended for favourable consideration by
more than one Committee on the subject, and it is clearly
a charge of an exceptionable character, that is a por-
tion of the charge of the expense for maintain-
ing pauper lunatics. Tho Lords' Committee on
the burdens of land recommended that the whole
charge should be placed on the Consolidated Fund.
Ido not propose to go this entire length, because I
should be doing away with the superintending funcdons
of a very useful body, the visiting justices, but only to
take a portion of the charge, so as not entirely to oust
these gentlemen. Hon. Gentlemen are aware that in
many counties large lunatic asylums have been built at
a considerable expense, and these I think are
entitled to far more c:nisideratiou than those in which
no such provision has been made. The poraen of exs
parse which I propose to take upon the public fund is
such as will leave the expense of maintaining a pauper
iunatic to the ordinary level of that of a
common pauper, and I think that a very jtht reason
fo' taking this charge may be found in the
fact that no care of the rate-payers could have avoided
this expense. I have tot been able to ascertain
exactly what the amount of this charge will be, but
I take it in round numbers to be 150,0001.
An Hoer. MEMDER inquired if the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman included the whole of the United Kingdom,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Yes,
England, Scotland, and Ireland. These, then, are the
proposals which I shall in due time submit to the House.
The reduction of duties, and the consequent relief
afforded to the country, will be as follows:—On sugar,
330,000/.; on windows, 760,000/.; on coffee, 176,0001.;
on timber, 286.0001.; and on agricultural seeds, 30,000/.;
making altogether a gain to the public amounting to
1,522,0001. Ido not, however, estimate the loss to the
revenue at anything like that sum. I have already
stated that I conceive the Customs revenue will make
up in other items the whole of the lose upon sugar. The
loss in regard to the window duty will, of course, be
a total loss to the full amount of 700,000/., that being
the difference between the amount of the window
duty I repeal and the amount of the house duty
which I substitute. I believe the loss upon the re-
duction of duty on coffee and timber together will not
exceed 400,0001., and the loss upon agricultural seeds I
calculate at 30,0001., making altogether a loss to the
revenue of 1,130,000/. Bit, in addition to this, is the
charge which I propose to lay upon the revenue by
transferring from a local rate to the consolidated fund
the charge for lunatic asylums, amounting to 150,000/.
This will consequently cause an increase of loss
to the revenue ; making it altogether amount to
1,280,0001. Deducting this from the surplus of
1,892,0001., it leaves for future years a net surplus of
612,000/. But it will be remembered that half a year's
amount of window duty will have to be received in the
course of the next year, which, amounting to 350,0001.,
will make the surplus for the next year amount to
962,000/.; but the surplus for future years, should tho
House consent to a renewal of the income-tax, will be
612,000/. Ido not think it can be fairly objected to me
that I have endeavoured to make too large a surplus.
These, then, as I have already said, are the proposals
which I shall make to the House, in the event of their
acceding to a renewal of the income-tax. Of course,
knowing as I do how much larger a surplus has been an-
ticipated, I cannot but expect that some disappointment
will be felt by parties in this House, at finding that the
amount of reduction that can be afforded is less than

they expected. Knowing, also, the views which are en-
tertained by many gentlemen opposite on the subject of
an extensive transfer of local rates to a charge upon the

general revenue, I cannot but expect that they should
be disappointed in finding that I do not consider it just
to the community at large to transfer a larger portion
of local rates as a charge upon the general funds of the
country. My own firm belief is that these local rates
are not any charge upon the occupiers of the soil. I
believe that they fall upon the owners of the
land. I do not think it is consistent either with good
policy as regards our institutions, or with justice
to the other classes of the community, to relieve the land
from those local burdens to a greater extent than that
which I have now done. I cannot feel myself open to
the reproach of having, in dealing with the general
taxation of the country, been regardless of the claims of
gentlemen connected with the possession of land. The
lion. Member for Buckinghamshire told us the other
night that the stamp duties were a charge on land which
he considered justly to a certain extent to be a set-off
against the probate and legacy duty. Now, the house
will remember that I last year proposed a reduction of
the stamp duties upon deeds, the far larger portion of
the benefit of which would fall to the share of the
owners of land, to the extent of 500,000/. Last year
also I proposed a remission of duty on bricks, and I now
propose a reduction of duty on timber, which is much
used by that class of persons in the construction of their
barns. Indeed, lam of opinion that there is no duty the
reduction of which will relieve the occupiers of lead to
so great an extent as the reduction of duty on timber.
I am most anxious to assist them in the improvement of
their property, and in the improvement of their iedus-
trial operations, by the removal of every species of tax,
so far as I can do so in justice to the other classes of the
community.—(Cheers.) I know that there are some
gentlemen who entertain an anxious desire that the loan
granted for drainage last year should be extended to farm
buildings. I would remind gentlemen what took place
last year on this subject. While stating my own ie.
diridual objections, I said that, as far as the public
revenue was concerned, I had no objection to the loan
being extended to farm buildings. Words to that effect
were actually introduced into the Bill, in order that the
subject might be discussed; it was discussed, and more
especially by gentlemen representing the counties. I
remember the Hon. Member for Somersetshire saying
that I had behaved most fairly in giving a full oppor-
tunity to consider the subject. But what was the re-
sult? Of the county Members of England and Scotland
who divided on the measure there were 36 against the
loan being extended to farm buildings, and 12 for it.
But, as I have said before, so far as the Exchequer is
concerned, there can be no objection to the proposal; al.
though there were last session three to one of the county
Members who thought it a boon which it was not ad-
visable td accept. Individually I have no hesitation in

seeing I eineur in that opinioe; bet 1-.° it bo se. 'esteo:l
that the objection to its adoption did nut come from the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, but from the country gen-
tlemen. I can only say that if they should have changed
their mind, and wish that the extension of the loan
should be made, there are ample funds still loft, the
whole amount granted last year not having been taken up
either in England or Scotland. Therefore, if it should be
the opinion of the majority that the money should be reap-
plied, it is still open to them to have it so applied. I shall
oppose no objection on the part of the Exchequer, al-
though I hope, as a country gentleman, I may be at
liberty to state my opinion upon the subject. I can
only say upon this, as upon any other proposal which
may be made with a view to mitigate the effect of any
measure of legislation which may be considered to ope-
rate oppressively on the agricultural interest, I shall be
perfectly ready (I assure Hon. Gentlemen I say it with
all sincerity) to discuss those proposals with the utmost
frankness, and with the utmost disposition to consider
them in all their bearings, with a view, if they should be
well founded, to their practical adoption; but I cannot
think that there is any portion of our taxation which
presses unfairly upon that interest. I consider the well-
being of that class connected with the proprietorship
and cultivation of the land to be inseparably mixed up
with the well-being of the community at large; and
therefore, that that system of taxation which is, upon
the whole, best for the entire community, is best for
them as part and parcel of that community, and whose
interests are indissolubly joined with it. I don't know
that there is any other point on which it is
necessary for me to trouble the House at
present. The proposal I shall put into your
hands, Sir, will be simply for a renewal of the income-
tax and of the stamp-duties in Ireland. If a reduction
of any portion of those duties should be proposed, the
more convenient time for discussing such a proposal will
be in some one of the stages of the Bill itself. If it be
the wish of Hon. Gentlemen that I should not this even-
ing take a vote.—(Hear, hear)—l am perfectly prepared
not to ask them for it.—(Hear, hear.) I only wish to
point out to them that by agreeing to a resolution this
night they are not precluded from making any general
proposition with respect to the renewal of the income-
tax at a future stage of the measure. My proposal is
that the tax he renewed for a period similar t i that for
which it was renewed on a former occasion—namely,
three years. I will only further observe, that it is desir-
able on all sides no longer delay than what is necessary
for a full discussion of the question should be allowed
to take place, whatever opinioes Hon. Gentlemen may
entertain respecting it.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman then moved the following resolution:—
" That, towards raising the supply granted to her Me-
jesty, the respective duties iu Gres;. Brifaiu oa profits
arising from property, professions, trade., and offices,
and the stamp-duties in Ireland, granted by two Acts
passed in the sixth year of her present Majesty, and
which have been continued and amended by several sub•
sequent Acts, shall be further continued fur a time to be
limited."
Mr. [TERRIES said, that of all the several topics em-
braced in the elaborate and long speech of his Right Hon.
Friend, the most important one was the proposal for a re-
newal of the income 'tax. He rose for the purpose of claim-
ing from, the Government that which they appeared prepared
to concede, namely, ample time before the House should be
called upon to vote upon that great question. He presumed
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not resume the
discussion at an earlier period than Friday next.—(Hear,
hear, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman seemed to accede to that suggestion. In
making it, be (Mr. Herries) had not the most distant inten-
tion of offering anything like an obstructive opposition to
the measure, or of interposing any unnecessary delay. Con-
sidering the circumstances under which they were called
upon to renew the income-tax, they ought, after having ma-
turely considered it, to enter upon the discussion as rapidly
as possible. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that there
were peculiar circumstances in the present condition of the
country, and in the present posture of public affairs, which
rendered his main proposition more difficult than at any
former period in which it was brought before Parlia-
ment. As time would be allowed them for considering
the question, he would not, in the interval, express any
opinion as to what would be wise, prudent, and politic, in
this important crisis of public affairs, and the decision which
should be come to on this question. All he would say
was, that there could be no desire on the part of any
gentleman to give any other vote upon this great question--
for great it certainly was--than that which would be condu-
cive to, and in accordance with, the welfare of the whole
community.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was quite sure the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman would not oppose any obstruction or
delay in the House coming to a decision upon the question.
He (Lord John Russell), thought the proposal for going
into Committee on Friday next with a view to the
discussion and decision of the question was a perfectly fair
one.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME thought it right that time should be given
to consider, not only the statements which the Right Hon.
Gentleman had made, but his omissions also. He regretted
that the Right Honourable Gentleman was not prepared to
make any reductions in the establishment of the country,
the estimates .he had given them being within 150,004. of
those of lint year. They were told that because two million
of men had, appeared in arms somewhere that this country
could make' no reductions in the army. He must confess
that he was disappointed, because after what was stated by
the Noble Lord last year with regard to his colonial policy,
and of th 6 determination of Government to withdraw the
troops and to make the colonists pay for their own troops,
he thought_ that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have
found there was a large field for reduction, and that we
might have expected in the course of this year the fruits of
that reduction. He knew no reason why the Canadians
should not govern themselves. The clergy reserves
had been given up to them. He thought it be-
came a question whether we were to keep up these
establishments there. They were quite unnecessary, and
he was informed that if we gave them up the Canadians would
not maintain them for one day. The question was whether the
country was satisfied with the expenditure amounting to
54,000,0001., which, including the costs of collection, was the
amount, and whether the_ House would take any steps to
effect a reduction in our civil and military establishments.
It seemed to him that there was great delicacy in dealing
with the civil establishment. He should have expected that
the Government would hare come forward, and that from
the Crown downwards we should have been relieved, with a
view either of dispensing with the income-tax altogether, or
of repealing other taxes. He confessed he would rather see
removed the soapetax' the paper-tax, and all other taxes
which press upon trade, than the income-tax. But if they
were to be continued, and the income-tax too, then it be-
came a question whether they should not dispense with the
income-tax. The Right Hon. Gentleman had misunder-
stood an observation that fell from him (Mr. Hume) when
this tax was proposed three years ago. The proposition
was made that it should be continued for three years, and he
moved a substantive motion that it should be continued for
only one year, in order to afford time for an inquiry into the
whole incidents of our taxation, and with a view of
effecting such improvements as might be made
in the mode of collection. With regard to
the income - tax, there were great objections
to the prsent mode of levying it. He always regarded it
almost as a robbery to charge the same per tentage upon
terminable incomes as upon incomes which were not ter-
minable. He had no hesitation in saying that it was
impossible to go on with the present amount of taxation,
and he could not believe that 'the agriculturist would allow
these large and expensive establishments to be maintained
as at present. A Committee up stairs during the last three
years had gone through the estimates of the navy, army,
and ordnance, to an extent of which the Minister could
avail himself, and he had expected that Government would
have been prepared to show reductions in all those esta-
blishments, and also in the civil administration. But not
a word had been said about it. Everything was to re-
main the same, and there was to be no alteration either
in the home or the colonial establishments. He thought
the country would be disappointed, and he was disap-
pointed. because he knew that Government had the in-
formation before them on which to found the reductions.
With regard to the window-tax, it was quite right to re-
move it, but he must say, as to the house-tax, that while
they had been spending years in simplifying taxation, the
proposed house-tax was of a most complex nature, and he
thought it would be a year before the regulations could be
brought into operation. He trusted that the House would
repeal the window -tax and not impose the house-tax. With
regard to coffee, he thought the reduction proposed was a
wise one, and that it was better to have one duty on both
foreign and colonial. He also thought that the Right Hon.
Gentleman was acting wisely in refusing to put an excise
duty upon chicory. As to timber, the only objection he
had was that the reduction did no go far enough. At
the same time there was some truth in what the Right
Hon. Gentleman said, that it required time for them to get
the supplies. He believed, as was stated some years ago,
that if our ship-builders had fair play we should become as
pre-eminent for our manufacture of ships as we were now
for any other article, as we had peculiar facilities for ship-
building. It was also proposed to reduce the duty on agri-
cultural seeds. He had only been surprised that country
gentlemen had been so long silent on that head. They
constituted a raw material, but a most important material ;
and in 1842 he expressed his regret that the duty on
seeds was not taken off. He hoped that country gentlemen
would see the importance of having seeds at as low a price
as possible. With regard to pauper lunatics he could not see
why they should become a charge upon the public any more
than other local charges. The result of the measures taken
by Sir Robert Peel and Lord Althorp in relieving counties of
the expense of prosecutions, had shown the want of wisdom
of such measures. That which cost 11. before, now cost 4L
or 511 The Government had no check or control; it rested
with the county magistrates, and not with them entirely, as
from the evidence of the chief constable of Stockport it ap-
peared that there were parties interested in every county in
carrying on prosecutions. He entirely disagreed with the
Right Hon. Gentleman as to applying any portion of the sur-
plus to pay off the debt. The paper manufacture was one
which might give employment to thousands, and might be.
come as extensive a manufacture as any in the country, not
only for our own use but for foreign nipple-. With the means
and materials whichthis country possess, it might become as
prosperous a manufacture as any we had. The em-
ployment it would give, and the mischiefs it would
prevent, were incalculable. These manufactories ex-
isted in remote parts of the country, chiefly where
there was a convenient and abundant supply
of water; in each of these localities a little town had grown
up around the manufactory; and seeing that there was a
decrease, instead of an increase, in this manufacture, great
care should be taken to avoid throwing the population, so
stilled into existence, upon the poor-rates. It would be much
better to repeal the duty on paper, than to apply so much of
the surplus in buying up stock, an operation which was sure
to be attended by a loss, as on a former occasion, when the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had funded at 86 per cent., and
had purchased again at 96, thus causing a loss of about
250,0001.—(Hear, hear.) This was no time for throwing
away 230,000 e. in such an operation. He was as great an
advocate as any one for maintaining the public faith ; but he
would not apply a surplus in paying off the debt when it
might be devoted to a better purpose. How much better
would it have been to have repealed the duty on soap last
year than to have bought up 1,200,0001. of Three per Cents.
—(Hear, hear.) Wherever fiscal regulations interfered
with commerce and industry, the first object should be to i
relieve them. By every means let the soap and paper du-
ties be abolished, not only for the relief which would be
thus afforded to our people at home, though that would ,
be great in every point of view, but as a means of enabling
this country to become an exporter of soap, instead of being
dependent on other countries for its own supply. The Go-.
vernment would, of course, buy stock at the market price;
but when a surplus arose, the first question was, how it
could best be applied? Instead of applying it to paying off •
two millions and a half, or 2,300,0001. of the debt, as he un-
derstood the Right Hon. Baronet to say, let it be applied to
the removal of taxes pressing on industry. This was not
applying the principle laid down by Sir Robert Peel in
1643 nor wee it carrying the priuciplee of free trade.

FEBRUARY lB, 1851.

There w ire eureeeens article., ei
yet free. It was said that glass was duty free, but there
were kinds which still paid a duty of 50 or 60 per cent.
Why not remove all the duties of a protective nature? Why,
for instance, should the import duty on gloves be conti-
nued, when the price of the article in this country was higher
than ever, and a greater quantity was exported f Why not
let the consumer have the full benefit of that competition
which we had declared should be the principle of our fiscal
system, be repealing all the taxes on the products of industry?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—,eOeid the
Hon. Gentleman go the length of repealing all taxes ?
Mr. HUME said the Right Hon. Baronet greatly misre-
presented him. He did not say let all taxes be repealed:
that was the argument of fools out of doors.—(Hear, hear.)
But he contended that the application of the surplus ought
to be so regulated as to remove the existing impediments to
the employment of industry and the investment of capital,
for the beneficial employment of which every outlet was
needed. To buy up any portion of the debt, with these ob-
jectionable taxes existing, would be extremely imprudent.
The Right Hon. Baronet had alluded to the increase of an-
nuities—a favourable symptom ; and he did not believe that
there would be any fear or risk as to the public faith being
kept, so long as they took care not to strain the spring
of industry until it broke. He entirely concurred in one
sentence of the Right Hon. Baronet, which had also
been expressed by the Noble Lord (Russell) on a former
evening—that the security and peace of the country
depended mainly on the number of people who
took a share or were interested in the Govern-
ment of the country. Let the occupants of the Treasury
bench be consistent, and bear that sentiment in mind when
the question of the franchise came on for discussion.—(Hear.)
The same principle applied to taxation. It was their duty to
lessen by every means in their power the burdens of the
community, in order that they might be comfortable; and
in the train of comfort would follow peace and content. But
he did not think such a state of things would be realised un-
der the present system.
Viscount DUNCAN concurred with most of the Hon.
Gentlemen who had preceded him in thinking that, until the
question of the property-tax was settled, it would be almost
premature to make any observations on the other parts of the
Right Hon. Baronet's scheme. As to the property-tax, Ile
! thought Sir Robert Peel was fully justified in introducing it
along with the changes which he made in our fiscal system,
inasmuch as he removed the taxes from the f eel of the
people. So far the experiment had been perfectly suc-
cessful ; and it was mainly owing to that policy that the
condition of this country was now so different from that
of other c tuntries ; for it was the only country in Europe
which hal any surplus to dispose of: He hoped that if
the property. tax was re-imposed, it would be done on the
same principle, on which it had been originally imposed,
and that corresponding reductions would be made in all
taxes which affected the comforts of the working classes. He
had a motion on the book for Thursday next for the repeal
of the window-tax; but, as he understood from his Right
Hon. Friend that the arguments he had used on a former
occasion had at. length convinced the Government of the ne-
cessity of repealing that tax, he trusted there was now no diffe-
rence of opinion between them. He regretted that the Right
Hon. Gentleman, in proposing the repeal of this tax, seemed
to cast " a lingering look behind," for he was probably the
only person in the country who would have ventured upon
the assertion, at the present day, that there was a good deal
to be said in favour of the window-tax. The Right Hon.
Gentlsman said, "Look how much house-property has been
relieved in the last few years by the repeal of the duties
on glass and on bricks" But what relief was this to
houses already built? It only applied to those to Le
built. Another argument had been used that the win-
dow-tax ought to be kept on because people were accus-
tomed to it. This reminded him of the old story about
skinning the eels. He feared those arguments would
not be very satisfactory or consolatory to those who looked
for a total repeal of the window-tax. He thought he
was perfectly justified in proposing its repeal last year,
though he was told that faith could not then be kept
with the public creditor. He feared the proposition of a
house tax would cause considerable disappointment to
many; he wished the substitution of that tax could have
been avoided.
Sir JOHN TYRELL thought the Noble Lord who had
just sat down ought to be satisfied with the victory he had
gained over the Chancellor of the Exchequer. As to the
agricultural interests, he thought it would have been much
better had the Government stoutly denied their distress in
the Queen's Speech ; for the measures now shadowed forth
were not at all of a description to administer any substan-
tial relief to those classes whom they admitted to be dis-
tressed. He congratulated the Right Hon. Baronet on hav-
ing made one admission, great in principle, though small in
amount—that of having recourse, on certain occasions, to
the Consolidated Fund. He proposed to administer some
relief in respect to pauper lunatics, with the view of encourag-
ing parishes in unions to send their pauper lunatics to the
county asylums. If the agricultural portion of the country
was really in a state of distress, it might be doubted whether
it was advisable to act on such a principle; for medical men
admitted that the partition between pauperism and lunacy
was so very thin that in some cases it was almost transpa-
rent; and there might be a danger of paupers being hurried
off to the lunatic asylums, in consequence of the Right Hon.
Gentleman's proposal. He agreed in the importance of the
poor having a wholesome beverage to drink, which was in
many cases almost a necessary of life. The adulteration of
coffee was carried on to an enormous extent; and though
with a portion of chicory, it might make a cheaper and
better beverage than the lower kinds of coffee itself, yet
chicory was so much mixed with parsnips, carrots, mangold
wurtzel, and other substances, that it was impossible to obtain
it pure. In many cases it might be difficult to say whether
chicory was adulterated with mangold wurtzel, or mangold
wurtzel with chicory; and if a penalty were imposed on
these adulterations, it would impose a great deal of trouble.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he was quite sure the Chan-
cellor's statement would disappoint 'the country as well as that
House. If the House wished to force reductions on the Govern-
ment, they must begin with our expensive establishments.
After Committees had been sitting for three sessions on the
army and navy estimates, the Government ought to have
been prepared to carry out some very extensive reductions.
But it appeared that, whenever the finances were in a flou-
rishiug condition, there was always an extravagant expen-
diture. The expenditure of 1845 had been 2,174,0001. less
than the expenditure of this year; and what were the cir-
cumstances of the country to justify such an increase ? iAt
home., tranquillity, peace, and contentment reigned to a
much greater extent than was the case in 1845; the colo-
nies were in a state of quiet —there were some misunder-
standisngs, but nothing to warrant such an expenditure as
this; and foreign nations had quite enouerh to do to ma-
nage their own affairs: they had neither:the means nor the
disposition to interfere with us or any of their neighbours.
Let the Right Hon. Baronet state to the House the necessity
for the increased expenditure this year over the periods he
had n sailed. The expenditure of the army and navy was a
reaffirm more than in 1845. What was there to require or
justify. that? Sir Robert Peel had carried on the Govern-
ment peaceably with the smaller expenditure, and why
could •not the present Government carry it on as cheaply as
he ha d dane? They had certainly never carried it on more
efficiently. Was it through want of disposition or of ability?
As th e question would again come before the House, he was
not d lisposed to take up the time of Hon. Gentlemen at
the pinesent moment.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the
windo w -tax abolition and the substitution of a house-tax
on the principle proposed by the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer hoe should say he considered it most objectionable, as it
removed none of the complaints urged against the inequality
of taseing the houses of the poor from 25 to 30 per cent. on
the rental, whilst those of the wealthy. were only taxed 2 or
2% les r cent.—(Hear, hear.) Then, the income-tax, also,
was an impost that the community expected would be placed
on a &ifferent principle from that which previously regue
lated it.—(Hear, hear.) But, as further opportunity would
occur for the consideration of all these topics, he did not
deem Le necessary to refer to them more particularly on the
present. occasion.
Ald.,erman SIDNEY did not wish to anticipate the debate,
but could not avoid making a few observations for the atten
tion o E the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The scheme pro-
posed :for the reduction of the window duty, by the levy of
a house tax yielding two-thirds of the present window duty,
he cm isidered a great injustice to houses lately erected and
containing a larger number of windows. lie could bring to
the re collection of the Right Hon. Gentleman the fact that
some new houses with fifty or seventy windows, assessed at
50/. or. 70/. per annum, would under the altered state of
things. have to pay some Is. in the pound, or 21. 10s. or 31.
10s. ini the year; whilst the old houses, under the former
system of equal value, would have to pay 13/. and 201. per
annurti.—(Hear.) As to the incotnestax, he would not then
touch on that. He remembered when the Noble Lord at the
head ref the Government re-introduced the tax in 1848, he
propoieed it on the ground of its being merely a temporary
tax. In 1842 Sir Robert Peel stated to the House
that if the tax were to be a permanent one he
would consider it the duty of the Government to inves-
tigate bow far it pressed on the different •classes who
paid it. —(Hear.) He therefore trusted the House would
offer tie e most determined opposition to the income-tax, un-
less Ministers were prepared to make it more just and equal
in its c° Aeration.—.(Bear.) He would never consent to the
renewral of a tax which exacted in the same proportion froth
talent, salary, and daily toil, as from realized property.—
(Hear, hear.) Me should differ with the Hon. Member for
Montrose, and assert that Government was not to blame for
having appropriated a certain portion of their surplus revenue
to the payment of the national debt, as, in his opinion, they
were bound to leave as little as possible of such a legacy to
their successors.—(A laugh.) In conclusion, he hoped that
some important Member on one side of the House or the
other would insist that the income-tax, when renewed,
should be renewed on fairer principles.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HODGES thought that as the brick duties came under
favou resble consideration last year, the hop duty should not
have been overlooked on the present occasion. For the last
thirty- years there had been great complaints amongst the
hop growers, and these complaints had not lessened, but ag-
gravated; and from what he knew of the condition of the
farmers in the hop counties, he could undertake to my that
Government would be unable to collect the hop duty in the
present year.
Mr. SLANEY tendered his thanks to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer for the remission of several taxes, but more par-
ticularly for the remission of the window-tax, which would
be the greatest boon to the dwellers in crowded courts and
alleys,. who felt severely, as he could testify, the privation of
light. He rejoiced at those reductions, because he felt that
in proportion as the working classes were enabled to con-
sume the necessaries and smaller luxuries of life, the land-
lords -would be better off also, and that in proportion as the
restraints on the springs of industry were relaxed, so would
the great mails of the people be elevated in the social scale,
and itaprove in all the elements of real prosperity. His
Right Hon. Friend had stated his willingness to give every
aid in his power to the suffering agricultural classes, and to
afford to them for other improvements that assistance which
had been found so useful in the county he (Mr. olaney) re-
presented tor the purposes of drainage ; but why would not
his Right Hon. Friend allow private individuals to lend
money on the some terms, instead of requiriug the parties to
come to the Exchequer for the loans? Nothing could be
more useful than such a plan ; at present money could not be
obtained on mortgage at less than 4 per cent., although Ex-
, chew] er-bills produced only 2 per cent. ; and the reason of
the foemer was the complexity of the transactions, and the
layss preventing the landed interest from getting fair play
particular. He hoped, however, to see the time when
that difficulty would be removed.
Mr. FREWEN joined with his Hon. Friend the Member
for West Kent in expressing his regret that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had not announced his intention of midge-
, ling the duty on hops. He had mentioned to the Right
Hon- Gentleman a short time before, on going up with a de-
putationbrought mainly
montnhley subject, the state into which his county was
in consequence of that oppressive tax. In
a neighbouring parish to his own t,OOO acres out of about
3,0110 were thrown on the hands of the landlords, a large
part of which belonged to a Noble Lord on the other side of
the House, who had them on hie hands since 1848. In fact
at that end of Sussex thousands of acres had been thrown up,
and there would be more than double the quantity at Mi-
chaelmas next. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Ripon stated the other night that he had not more than 300/.
arrears owing to him for rent; but he (Mr. Frewen) could
mention some landlords who had thousands owing to them
for such arrears. In the eastern division of Sussex the hop
duty amounted to more than 100,000/. In 1848 it was
more -than 147,000/. ; last year it was 116,000/. ; and, now
that the protecting duty wad loweou to one fourth of

; „ss, , ' jss. s"
Chancellor of the Exchequer for a mitigation of thismost oppressive tax. The quantity of hop plantation,,
~
had been greatly reduced of late years. In 18'
the quantity was 51,000 acres, and the old duty paid wit!
242,0001. In 1822 the quantity was 43,766 acres, and
the old duty was little more than 200,000/. In consequence
of the pressure in that year Lord Liverpool's Government sent
down orders that the Excise officers were not to collect the
fluty. Now in the lag year there had been great -meetings
on the subject, deputations to the Government and petitions
presented to Parliament, but the duty had been enforced
although the pressure was greater than at the former period.
He thought they had a strong claim to have the duty lowered _
to one. half its present amount, for otherwise it would_ be
utterly impossible to continue the trade. The Right non_
Gentleman would find it totally impossible to collect the tax
for the last year, and great distress anl ruin must be the con-
sequence if it were enterced. Many of the old political sup-
porters of the Government had expressed their wish that they
might not long continue in office.—(A laugh.)
(Alderma _
Mr. COWAN said he rose principally in consequence oaf
the observation of the Hon. Member opposite
Sidney) as to the injustice of the income-tax as it at preset
existed. He need only refer to what took place three yea
ago, when Hon. Members expressed themselves in strong
terms as to that injustice, and the Right Hon. Baronet,
the
First Lord of the Admiralty, had exposed it in the most
manly manner. He did not wonder at the coalPi.sin•
against the tax from its inequality, and the facilities„.l!
offered for fraud and evasion. He held in his hand a twrrn
of assessment which had been sent to one of his constitue nf
—it went through the Post-office without an envelope, _ope
at the ends, so that without any great breach of confident:
any clerk or messenger of the office might ascertain
the
amount at which any person in the city of Edinburgh
,77
assessed, for all the notices were issued at the same trnx
re, ra
t
He found that in the year 1848 147,659 persons we
sessed under Schedule D for income-tax, of whom 34,270,1,
incomes under 1501. a year; and yet from them bed
collected 73,000/. He could not but call that money ill'_
gotten gain. He also thought that coach manufacturers'
who had been such great sufferers from the progress of rail,o
ways of late years, and also the paper manufacturers,
entitled to relief at the hands of the Chancellor of the were
chequer. As to the latter tax, his conviction was that s'
produced no substantial gain to the country.
Sir B. HALL said that when the Noble Lord, three year°
ago, spoke of the income-tax and the extension of that tax tO
Ireland, he certainly gave the House to understand that 107
the tax was again proposed it should be extended to Ireland'
He thought it right, therefore, at that early part of the
cussion, to give notice that whenever the opportunity arr.'s
he should take the sense of the House as to the extension;
the income-tax to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) There was °
question he wished to put to his Right Hon. Friend; but
0 f
first he would tell him that with regard to the impnertirtbe
the house-tax, it was his intention to take the sense o
House on that proposition.—(Hear, hear.) But it was, e
tremely desirable to know what strength they were likeelY,is
have in support of such a proposition, and therefore, h_why
they earns to the discus ion, he wished to ask the iloti
Hon. Gentleman whether he intended that his propositions,
a house-tax should be confined exclusively to Great 13orw
or should be extended also to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) . the
Mr. ALCOCK, after expressing his satisfaction at to
announcement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer esei,
taking the duty off clover-seed, said he was anxious to of
of
plain the reason why he voted the other night in We" 00
the motion of the Hun. Member for Buckin
did so, not from any view to a return to protection, "rw,
ut
because he was one of those who wished to force the Govettee
ment to give them a full and complete system ° 40.
trade. He wanted to extort from them free trade in the
_41.0
portant article of barley. The House was hardly swied
that one-ninth part of all the cultivated land was (Olio
by barley. When the Hon. Member for Bucking a
last year nroposed to transfer to the Consolidated Fatless
part of the charge for the poor-laws, the Right Hon. Gt
man the Secretary for the Home Department and Sirado
Peel proved, that even if the Hon. Gentleman had mid.
good his case, it would not have made more than 2dsi`jesed,
an acre difference. But the tax on barley, he 13' were
amounted to 4/. or 5/. an acre. Some Hon. Gentlemen the
gharnshire.
disposed to say it was of no consequence; but were it he
aware that if a man wanted to convert barley into rese The
got only five quarters of malt for twelve of barley( snot
farmers of England had not combined together for the r'rres
of that tax, as the commercial classes had done for thess to
peal of other duties, and therefore they had failed to col!int, if
that House with any effect or power whatsoever. sod
they did combine, as they had done in South NOt'''btain
elected their own representatives, they could not fail to °,dife
justice, although, apparently, it might be a matter of
farence to that House.
stleol
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was glad that the Hon. u'e-iffinal"
who had just spoken was at last convinced that the se-_,ioat
tural interest had reason for discontent. The House 'Vera
depend upon it that in many parts of the countrysutreb eytbsaotoitt,
suffering most severe privations, and he was
would be a satisfaction to them to feel that they Ills
degree of sympathy from their Members; but, wu.„l"satbl
felt that, they must feel also that they had no 57`",,ssr eer•
from the Government or the Chancellor of the Ecus-'' eat
—(Hear, hear.) Never had he listened to any 8.1 goo'
with more pain than he had listened to the finenc"-h-ear.)
meat of the Right Honourable Gentleman.—(Hear' night
What was the country to expect ? Only the other .0 god
the Chancellor of the Exchequer over and over gbt.oo,
her Majesty's Government in the Speech from the 'did not
distinctly referred to agricultural distress. But he Rioting
see how the tenant-farmer could be benefited 0ne,.., ,10020'
by the present proposition of the Right Hon. Gen
other
other
If houses above 201. were to be taxed some one %too of
the
est
Rightpay that
Icon. tax.Ge
ntlßemutanl.et tHheemmciognhcteihveentehit ioverertia:esud_lri
the north of England by taking off the duty on cif)
pots 0
but he was doing infinite injury to the scathe rand grey'.
England, for many tenants in the south of Eag'—emplor
clover-seed, and it was one of their most profitable r,gad
ments. If it were not beneficial to the tenant-101d it to
from its being an uncertain crop he did not recoturbef greo
s
his tenantry, still to the labourer it was a source 'S sf the
advantage. The Chancellor of the Exchequer talketVd
great deal be did last year for the land, but the land b„ Soll•
perienced very:little practical benefit from the Rig"- duty
Gentleman's boasted boons. As to the reduction of the „,es
on bricks, he did not believe that a single tenant-D7p
throughout the country had benefited by that reduction
the extent of one shilling.—(Hear, hear.) If, with 50,40.
an aggregate surplus in two years, the present s.l:riog
cellor of the Exchequer could do no more for the sn'wbod.
agricultural interest, that interest would rather have a
get from the Hon. Member for Montrose. „modal
Lord D. TUART said that a most importen.,`' by
had been put to the Chancellor of the Excbeq7nsse 1111'
Honourable Colleague ; he Loped that it would not r
ANCELLOR of Hon. XCHEQII'
~ had not an.
answered.
at the moment simply because, as usual upon these
swered the question of the Member for
occasion'is—wer
ether'
he had proposed to answer all such questions tog tbst
What he had stated, very distinctly as he thought, Wataotee in
he proposed to reduce the present duty Paid by o°ll
Great Britain ; he did not mean to impose any new to man'
her for Edinburgh, that some of his constituents,
Ireland. With reference to the complaint of the no' se in,
whO
node
comes under Schedule D were below 150/., had beespsrielag
to pay income-tax, the explanation was that, is"wsich
means from other sources not set forth in Schedule vi beet
raised their incomes above 1501., they had, of u _nce to_arse,
assessed upon that aggre ate income. With referee the
the tenant-farmers, he had always maintained 0100
benefit to them must be given, generally speaking, noiclte
their landlords. If the result of reducing the duty 013,0 gigs
and on timber, had been to enable the landlords to 008.,
their tenants better buildings in which to carry on th.ll the
rations, this was certainly a material good done
_!.100of
tenant-farmers. He had never spoken of the reduc"'m
the brick duty as a direct boon to the tenant-farmeri
soy o'
the proposed reduction of the seed duty, he was e'eteaoat
opinion that the general body of agriculturists tbro ;biest
the country would be benefited by a measure
cheapened their raw material. C
eara,
Mr. NE WDEGATE wished to know whether the eseis
cellor of the Exchequer had this year, as in forrner_sTuthe
formed an estimate of the amount to be derived u-conee
corn-duty? (Hear, hear.) In 1349 his estimate of r.fi,
from that source was .50,000/. at a duty of Is., and
he
he anticipated the same amount from the same soul". esti-
duty so anticipated was small in amount, but t rs. per
because, at a fixed rate 011„ito the
agriculturists a distinct insight '"rtati°l2
g avvael valuable, e,
Government anticipation of what was to be the ilsan49 the
qmuaatret er, wasit
of corn in the ensuing year.—(Hear, hear.) In I° antler
Right Hon. Gentleman, instead of the 250,000/.,11e OOP
pated, received 617,815/. from the corn receive and 8 17010
instead of his anticipated 250,000/ be 4, ;hold
an excess of 70 per cent. upon his estimate. Ile villt6
like very much to hear from the Right Hon. Gentleman year ;
be estimated the corn duty would realize in the ensusbitwould
for if it, was to be, say, half a million sterling, tu gilt'
be an important feature in the Budget, and Wow
o the
very important information to the landed interest asn'i stir
extent of foreign competition which the Government
posed they would have to encounter. As to tb_e g the
of France, which was put forward by way of Co' analogy
agriculturists in their distress, there was 11°.,8°,1 an t d.
between the case of France and the case of l'Pe"- trY;and
gland was an importing, France an exporting coll, quarters
the 700,000 quarters which in 1849, and I,o°°';' oisely regti;
which in 1850, France exported to En land' P-e
Price f lated, by their price in th En ' g km, the obje
glish mar d roper to
corn throughout France. This Budget prosente e
House -
features. The Right Hon. Gentleman asked th
._ht
per,
continue the income-tax, that under its cover he bug
m to 1"2/1
petuate free trade to commerce; and he asked the Color °
tine the duties on malt and on hops, that, under sicris
these, he might perpetuate the refusal of free-trade fraett
culture.—(Hear.) He regarded this Budget as n‘bt; whicti!
ignoring of her Majesty's Speech, and of the sYnIPaL '
for - ucfor
on the occasion of the motion of the Hon. Memberloreas
inghanishire, it had suited the Government to elta„.7,
agricultural distress. The reduction of 30,000/• on aerie 0011 W
eel and
seeds, attained at the expense of the deeply an- „.; •ng
ern counties, he considered in the light of paltry be be'
mockery. As to the condition of our con3rderelssatie;
lieved it to be very far indeed from sound. The ell'6itteres'
of the cotton trade this year would develops the de Os:,
satire that could be devised upon the whole
boutrwe Ow;
tem. It had been said, " Give us free trade, n'` tierce,,,
extend our commerce magnificently throughout the only
whereas experience, since free trade, showed that Asia ita,
quarters in which our trade had expanded
were
50_, see,
those colonies of our own which our legislation
eacr'y 4
was seeking to injure, if not to destroy.--(Heara, hhe ape:
to Europe, there had actually been a decrease i 1850, of
tation of our cotton goods to its various countries,,', 1849'1
not less than 2,000,000 of
beyd. as compared w
~sport ba
(Hear, hear.) It might very true that ou _A
bees
increased since 1845, but the increase in our import nu'
far
infinitely greater. islensher f
Mr. F. FRENCH complained that the Hon. he o
Marylebone, not content with the omisision on tr,,_,.trTnost
the Government to do anything for Ireland, ED'
anted the
distressed portion of her Majesty's dominions, w her.
upon 0
Chancellor of the Exchequer to impose a new tau e Iv
tbSt a
He maintained that Ireland, in proportion to her mt
not only more heavily taxed than this country, but
was the most he ivify taxed country upon earth.
_sold be
Mr. BANKES assured Irish Members that heex"
tend t"
the last man in the present state of Ireland to eho
income-tax to that country. The Chancellor.
ers,'srialtti:
chequer had spoken of those burdens of which th.
the
rists complained as if they in reality fell upon
.tn_litley
and not upon the tenant; but the class upon wide.'"
their ovia
most heavily was that of the small cultivatorsvos.o_,l6 class
land, neither a rich nor a powerful but a most
was some,,
duty
in the State. As regarded the window-tax, it uiPouance
not only to give his attention to those by whose
extend it also
he might be more particularly returned, but to
_s
00
_,.,, Ansa.
to the large towns that were situated within hi
0,
tub"evrostor!
having their interest at heart, as well as that
t the wind° s
his constituents, he had raised his voice ageing
ged from
might be chan niers,
tax. He thought that the duty
the occur •
windows to houses greatly to the advantage ofne
joined Ilea
and without any great loss to the revenue.
that laX, roe'
tily therefore in the propriety of removing
__sOpinion upon
icg to a future occasion the expression of hi
the income-tax. the P's'
Mr. MITCHELL expressed his approval of would
• h he thoug
modification of the timber duties, whic
lead to the employment of a large number of shiP