The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-16 00:00:00

(PRICE 7D.)

St. George Bloomsbury, and Sr. Giles-in-the-Fields,
against the Bill for granting a salary to the chairman of

the quarter sessions.
Mr. MURRAY moved that the order of the day for
taking into consideration the Stafford Election be post-
poned till Tuesday the 24,th of May.
The order of the day for balloting for the Election Com-
mittee was then discharged.
Mr. COBBETT gave notice that he would move to-
morrow that the petition of Richard Newson and James
Dunn, presented to the House on the 1s- April, be printed.
He should also move for returns of the distributors of

stamps in every county and town in England, Wales,
and Scotland, stating the salary which each annually re-

ceived for his services.

Lord ALT HORP gave notice that he would move to.
morrow for leave to bring in a Bill, to enable persons to

purchase small annuities by means of the Savings' Banks.

SALARIES OF THE JUDGES.
Mr. HUME said, as there were rumours of very con-
siderable changes in the judicial department, as
some retirements were about to take place, and as some
some other changes would of course follow,, he was
inxious to remind the Noble Lord (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) that the salaries of the Judges had, for

the last thirty years, increased to a very enormous ex-
tent. When any new appointment took place, he hoped
that Government would show that they intended seriously to

grant some relief to the country„overburtbened by heavy

t fixation

Lord ALTHORP said the present Lord Chief Justice
of the Court of King's Bench had accepted the situation
upon a considerable reduction of the salary, which was a
sufficient proof that the Government had turned its atten-
tion to the subject. He was not however prepared to
give a specific answer to the question of the Hon. Mem-
ber, nor could he see that the subject was so pressing as to
call upon him to bring it particulArly forward to-night.
IRISH DISTURBANCES BILL.
On the question that the House do re,olve itself into a

Committee of Supply.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he saw no person present

connected with the Irish Government, but be wished to
have inf inflation, which he could not help moving for,
with respect to the proclamations lately issued by the
L,,rd-Lieutenant of Ireland under the Bill which deprived

hat e.,un ry of the Constitution. It was strongly inti-

mated on the passing of that Bill that there wag
no disposition to carry it into effect, so that
it never could be carried into effect, except
under the pressure of abso!ute nec..ssity. In spite of this
assulance a most -wanton and outrageous act had been
committed under the Bill, which sufficiently shewed the
truth of what he had often said, that despotic power
could not be entrusted in the hands of any man. Posses-
sion was itself a temp,ation to abuse it. Time Bill

had hardly arrived in. Ireland before the county of
Kilkenny was put out of the pale of the law. Pact of
that county was, he acknowledged, in a disturbed state;
but there was a considerable part of it perfectly tranquil,
and which was punished indiscriminately with the rest.
What he principally relied on was, that the County of the
C,ty of Kilkenny had also been put under the operation li
of the Act, although there was not the slightest ap-
pearance of insubordination in that part of the country to
justify the doing so ; for, if he were rightly informed, the
crimes committed there within the last twelve months
amounted only to five, the most serious of which was a
petty larceny case. The reason given for this was a
ludicrous ; one it was that the officers who were to
form the courtsmartial could have better accommodation in
the hotels of the city of Kilkenny, than they could in any
disturbed part of the county. For this reason it was, a
city which had committed no off,nce, and which con-
tained a population of 24,000 souls, had been put out of
the pale of the law. He concluded by moving that ther,
be laid before the House copies of all proclamations issued
by the Lord-Lieutenant under the Irish Coercive Bill ;
the reasons giv-n for the same, and the amount
of crime committed within the last twelve months in the
city of Kilkenny.
Lord ALTHORP begged to suggest to the Hon.
Member the expediency of his withdrawing his motion
till the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland WA his
seat to-morrow. He fully concurred in the observation of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that the House, having
granted these extraordinary powers to:the Gr,vernment,
was bound to keep a jealous eye over the exercise of
them.

Mr. O'CONNELL withdrew his motion till to-morrow,
Mr. COB BETT, with refsrence to the statement made
by the Noble Lord a little while ago, said he did not know
by how much the salary of the Chief Justice of the Court
of King's Bench had been reduced, but it ought to have
been to the standard which prevailed before 1795,
when it was raised, in consequence of the depreciation
which had taken place in the currency. It was then
4,500/., and it had since been raised to 10,000/.
Tile salaries of police magistrates, too, deserved considera-
tion. These began at SOO/. a year, and were now ar-
rived at 800/. He should like to know what for ? He
should like to be told why they might not be brought
back to 300/.7 It was by such reductions throughout
the establishments of the country, that the Noble Lord
could alone expect to reduce the expenditure to the in-
come of the country. And this was what the people ex-
pected would follow the Reform Bill, which would be of
no use to them unless it were followed by economy.
Lord ALTHORP stated, in reply to the Hon. Member
for Oldham, that in 1795 the Judges were in possession of
saleable patronage, attached to their office, en which
they no longer had any claim; and it was in remuneration
for their loss of that patronage their salaries were advanced.
The Noble Locd said something about police-magistrates,
which we could not catch.
Mr. HUME thought it almost necessary to have
returns of the professional employment of the Judges. He
had been inf firmed that, instead of an additional pressure
of business upon the Judges, the reverse was the case. The
subject 01 the judicial establishment, however, would he
shortly brought before the House, when he (Mr. Hume)
should make further observations on the subject.
Still, however, he would have the Noble Lord direct
his attention to the matter, especially as, although
the Noble Lord said he was not aware of it, there were
general rumours of a change in the judicial offices; which
had, in fact, been mentioned in the leading journal of
the day.
Tire SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in answer to the
Hon. Member for Middlesex, would assure him that ti,e
judges were worked harder than any porters or coal-
heavers in the metropolis. Whether they were over-
paid, or under-paid, there could be no doubt of
their being over-worked. With respect to the emoluments
of the Lord Chief Justice, he could assure Hon. Mem-
bers that he was not now paid a sum equivalent to that
received for fulfilling the duties of the orh,.e when it wa-
customary for the holder to dispense the patronage of the
Court.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY would assure the House that if
the Court of King's Bench was pressed with business, the
Court of Common Pleas was scarcely e-nployed. He be-
lieved there were between 500 and 600 cases undecided
in the King's Bench, and he was of opinion that an officer
ought to be appointed to marshal the cases, so that each of
the judges might have a fair proportion of work. There
would be no difficulty in this, for it must be premised that
the judges were equally good, and should there-
fore be equally employed.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The
question was, whether good judges could be obtained
for a much less sum thin 8,000/. ; but the Noble Lord
had said if they were not to give good a daries, the conse-
quence would be that no efficient services would be ob-
tained.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he felt quite confident,
that the contrary would be proved to be the fact, and he
could well recollect the time when compensation was con-
sidered secondary to the honour of filling a high situation
in the state.—(Hear.) Rising talent was now borne down
by the silk gown monopoly.
T,,e SOLICITOR-GENERAL said there never was a
time when
justified
tthhaen ct
the
l'i4in tof
The monopoly
number of silk gowns
oat the Bar was
less
had so much increased of late years, that for his own part
present.
he should not have cared if there had been no such thing
thought of. The number of king's counsel at the present
day was about three times as great as it was twenty
years ago. With respect to the hint thrown out
by the Honourable Member for Colchester, o
marshalling the causes, he considered it would be a great
hardship on persons bringing actions not to know where
they would be tried. As the thing at present stood par
sous were permitted to choose any of the Courts in West-
minster Hall in whisk to bring their action. He was
surprised at the statement of the Honourable Mem-
ber, that the Court of Common Pleas had so
little business. The Court of .tschequer, he knew,
had issued as many writs, as the Court of King's

Bench. Any alteration for the good of uotitote
would ever have his hearty support. He most earnestly
implored the House to consider well before they legislated
upon the subject, of the great good that resulted from
aving efficient Judges, and the means by which such
fficiency could be secured.
Mr. 0 CONNELL thought that none but practical
men could be good judges, and it would be obvious that they
could not be selected from men of small practice. lorVitii
vrespect
etrob
uthr
tehemnaerdshaio g of us
,tililtye
should
ucl
da
bees ht
riat
nh
se
fretro, reirif one
too
tbCourtothers.
He hoped the time was not far distant when lon courts
would be established, not confined to a paltry 20/., but,
like the old county courts, he trusted they would be able
to take cogniz ,nce of any matter. He hoped, also, to see
in those courts that the first witnesses cal'ed were the
plaintiff an,i defendant, even although that would go far
to destroy the emoluments of the profession to which he
had the honour to belong.
Mr. BULLER said a few words which were inaudible
in the gallery.
Sir W. M. RIDLEY said he could not concur in the

remarks made by the Hon. Member for Colchester, that
eminent men were induced to look for high situation+ oil
the bench merely from pecuniary motives. He did not
nee that they deserved such a stigma, when it was well
known that many of them were making at the bar double
the sua3 that was paid as salary to a Judge.—(Hear,
hear.) Mercenary men were not likely to do so.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of

Supply; Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, in moving the first resolution,

said it gave him great pleasure to announce that, notwith-
standing th • reductions made last year, amounting to
7.000/, in his department. there had been a further re-
duction effected amounting to 17,0001., besides 5,000/.
which bad been hertofore received in the shape of fees. mak-

ing altogether a stvinv, of 29,0001. The bal.tore sheet for
the whole year had been laid before the House, whic:l
would show that the sum that had been voted last sear
hid not been exceeded.

The CHAIRMAN then put the resolutiun that 104,0701.
be grantvd to his Atijesty, to defray tln• a ditrie: of officer.)
of the contingent expenses of the Adrniratty-offi,e, to the

3lst March, 1833.
Mr. HUMF way of opinion that it would he but
losing time, and woul.l be but giving unneceviary troult/e..
if he were to enter at any length into the iletai ..f it
_ _ _ - _ - .
item.

The Right H n. Gentleman had itnilliuhtedy

made a great many alterati,m4; and it was
for him or tor any other person to attempt t•* say

how far those alteration.;

were beneficial,

otherwise. The changes had in fact hken so great since
the Right Hon. Gentleman bad taken office. that it wound

not become him (Mr. Hume) at present to discos: th,-m.
—(He-ir, hear.) The amount of the reducti,m4
eertain,y been considerable, hut lo%c as tb ~x-penses
penses were, compared with what they were ten years
ago, still they were very heavy- to-i
considerable as it had been—was, however, hut small,

compared with what the Right Hon. Gentleman voold
he expected by the country t resort to. He was sure hat

none but Government itself thuu4ht the expen,rs ,t eun-

ductmg the different departments were low enough.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, as far as the number of men
were concerned, a large majority of the H use had alre oly
declared it necessary. The amount Of the forces must always
be guided by the circnmstances in which vie country was
placed. The Hon. Member was exceedin,ly desirous
to guard Government against au increase of exp •ndi-
Cure ; but be would beg to remind that Him,,urable
Member, that taking the half-pay, and those items over
which his Majesty's Government had every control,
there bad been a decrease in the last two years of no:
less than 30 per cent.

Mr. HUME complained of the charges for a receiver

of fees.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the Hon. Member
made a mistake, for that the receivership of fees war
dune away wi:h. The figures the Honourable Member
saw in the estimate were tl e last year's charge.
Mr. HUME was glad of it, and hoped so excellent an
example would be followed in other departments. It was
preposterous for officers to pay fees for doing their own bu-
siness. He saw here a charge of 1001. for a civil archi-
tect. He wanted to know what was the nature of his
duties.

Sr JAMES GRAHAM said the salary tva% formerly
SON., and had been reduced by him to 7091. This
officer had very important duties to perform in surveying
and carrying all dock-yard build inga on.
The resolution was then agreed to.
On a rate of 21,7251., being moved to defray the sae
Lries and contingent expense. of the Navy Pdy-officer,
_ _ _ .

Mr. HUME asked whether Mr. Huskisan received
any pension !or exercising the office of Assistant Treasurer ?

Sir JAMES GRAHANI—No.

Mr. HUME thought the charge for sending money to
the prts might he saved, by the use of bills, in the com-
mon mercantile mode of transmitting money.

Mr. POULETT THOMPSON said that he had given
the subject his best attention, and could assure the Hors
Gentleman that the business was now carried on at the
cheapest rate possible. The bankers would not undertake
to send the money unless a deposit was placed in their
hands, and a commission given them. If, indeed, the
Bank of England had any branch banks at the outports,
the business might have been easily arranged. In the Act
establishing the branch hanks of the Bank of Engl►nd, a
clause was inserted forbidding these branches from making
any payments, except where the branch was actually eats-
'dished. There was a branch at Exeter, hut there was
nune either at Portsmouth or Plymouth ; and therefore it
was impossible to make an arrangement such as he had
contemplated.
Mr. HUME wished to know how the business was
done now. Were notes or gold sent down to pay the

seamen?
Mr. POULETT THOMSON—Both notes and gold
are sent.
Mr. tkIUME thought, with the large balance which the
Government had in the bands of the Bank of England,
means might he found to pay the seamen without the ex-
pense of remitting the money. He supposed, if 20,0001.
were lodged in the hands of the bankers at the out p :as,
they would undertake to provide the money whenever it
Was wanted.
Mr. P. THOMSON would not like to trust the hankers.
Mr. HUME saw an item in the account of 3,4001. for
for the office on Tower hill, for the payment of the pen-
sioners of Greenwith Hospital. He wished to know why
that could not he done away ?
Mr. P. THOMSON assured the Hon. Member that
this office was necessary ; and if he saw it he would ad-
mit that the business there was conducted in an admirable
manner. The expense of this office was 4,300/., and he
had reduced it to 3,4001.—V0te agreed to.
The next resolution was, that 22,109/. he granted to
his Majesty to defray the salaries of the officers and the
contingent expencas of the scientific department of the navy.
Mr. HUME thought that this was the opportunity he
ought to take to bring the case of the students of naval
architecture before the House. The returns, however, which
he had moved for had been so recently completed, that they
were not yet printed. He, therefore, was not able to lay
the case of the young men, who be .hought had been very
hardly treated, In ly before the House. He would only say,
while other nations were diligently m ,king a pro.
:;re's in naval architecture, we seemed to be retrogading.
Other countries thought it necessary to keep up their
scientific establishments, but we were destroying ours.
He thought at least that the men who for twenty-six years
had been bred up to this profession—who were not on y
good practical ship-builders, but well acqu :inted wit 1 all
the science connected with their profession—be could not
help thinking that it would have been wise to have
formed such a body of men into a small Board, rather
than lure tk up the establishment altogether. At present
no plan was followed in building our ships but one was
built or altered according to the whim of one man, and
another was built or altered according to the whim of
another man. There was no principle whatever followed
in building our ships, because we had not one system of
education and one mode of instruction.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that after the best infor-
-I,u nhn aei tt
most
itt i n they
nautical
. pu r,oi
cpcaeo i
ru
knowledge
cd:o
wrb 8 tl i
di
toog , e t
wh ei
tßh pursueu apwrr daa
sc ott fi
oc Aa l demx
appointi
pr ea rl ti ye
inta
te.en. thoughtw
He
we
could assure the Hon. Member that measures would be
taken to give the public all the information which might
he laid before the Board of Naval Architecture.
Mr. HUME was desirous of knowing explicitly whether
Captain Sytnond's plan had been successful or not 1 He
understood that the Vernox, which had been built on the
principles suggested by that officer, was a failure. It
was now two years and a half since the experiment had
been tried, and it was only right the public should know
whether it answered or not the purposes it was designed
for.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM answered, that as far th
Board of Admiralty was advised upon the subject, nothing
could exceed the superiority both of the Vernodll6asuud f
.11 the other vessels built under Captain Syloheoirri
grantel
• DUNDAS declared, on the an °ray of Sir
super-
intendence.
itd:Cniarrdep.eptnaoHcirneut
e.
dm
themT The officers o:ffifhce,
gexrhtsrlyat7prpideoi izaetrdeyd
with
tit.
rtoeb
nt
the
Francis Collier, who ottn e .
~
experiment bad fully succe_dea
Time Vote was thee agreed to.
wended the Vernon,, that the
On the motion that the sum of 114,9704 be
yh
t tahm d
information..elf fioc i
eeprne.
cr 3;