The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-15 00:00:00

Mountgarret evinced a degree of learning, accuracy, and
diecrimination rarely equalled in either country. His devo-
tion to the judicial duties is well known. I believe I am
correct in saying that he has only absented himself from
one circuit during bis long judicial career. The high opi-
' nion which we all entett tin of him is, I know, shared by
tlti bar, many of whom I have heard express it in the most
unqualified terms. I have never heard any complaint or
' dissatisfaction expressed, either in public or in private, as
to his performance of his duties. Personally, I have long,
I acknowledge, entertained great affection and regard, as
• well as respect, towards him, and' should feel extremely
concerned that he should be selected as an object of attack,
to which he is as little open in justice as any member of
our body. I hope that, whatever shape the motion may
assume, it will include us all.—Believe me very sincerely
yours, . " Rlnnu. W. GREENE.
"Right Hon. J. Napier:"
These aromatics opinions of eminent judges, to which ho
would beg to offer his own ; from having had many oppor-
tunities of judging, he did not think there was any man
of either country—if he were bound at that moment to se-
lect—whom, iu point of excellence or wisdom, he would
prefer to Baron Pennefather. The hon. baronet said that
souse cases on circuit had no opportunity. of being impar-
tially tried, as the judge bad not the power of inspecting
1 and comparing legal documents. But he (Mr Napier) al-
ways thought that that was the duty of the jury. In a
remarkable case which had lately been tried before Baron
Pennefather, involving property, of a large amount, the
case came by way of appeal before the Chancellor ; and,
after five drys' argument, the Chancellor, in affirming the
decision, said there was nothing to complain of in the care
and ability bestowed upon it by the learned judge of the
court below., Tnis was the man of whom the Lord Chan-
ceiloref Ireland heal thus spoken in the year 1+53, ana
yet ho was to bo told that this learned judge was a tit
person to be dragged before the House of Corn irons—to
have his infirmities criticised, and to have a stigma cist
upon him. He asked them, if they cast this stigma, where
they would find a judge of honour and independence who
would take a seat upon the bench ? What was the age of
Baron Wood when he delivered that gree.t judg,ment em brac-
ing all the law entire subject of evidence in cases of libel? He
was about 80 years of age. What encouragement and reward
were they about to give to public suer? He admitted that
thislearned judge might have retired years ago; bet as he him -
self said,: with a per _acuity and power never excedea, " I
have confidence that the House of Commons will do me
justice. .1 am anxious for_ the independence of the judges,
and I do not wish to have it assailed by one branch of the .
Leg:slature. I consider the motion as trenehing upon the
independence of the bench, and insulting to individual
judges ; but if there be any complaint, it may be right, in
a proper way, to investigate that complaint ; ,but if there
be no complaint nor iticoveeience, it may he surely left
to each judge to decide for himself at whet tuna he ought
to-retire-from a trust whialche holds for the public bone-
tit." The learned judge added, If any one disiuterested
person —(hear, hear )—had stated to -me any inconvenience,
or =spec e d inconvenience, likelyto arise from my going the
circuit, 1 would have gone into the matter, and consulted
with those of my friends who were competent to advise
me, and I. would not have suffeetel the public to be irn-
Posed-on, ar myself to be disgraced ; but us there has been
no complaint, I cannot see how justice can be furthered
by such a motion. If the Government does its duty, it
will resist a met on which exposes a judge to codturnely."
(Hear, hear.) This learned judge has a parson to take
notes—he had those notes read over to him, ant his power-
ful memory enabled him to correct aelyeerrors. He (Mr.
Napier) saw the hon. baronet the-member for Derry, and
the hoe, member for Tyrone, Who had seen this judge on
circuit. He appealed to both sides of the house. He
asked every disinterested person to stand up in that house
and say that he was prepared to substantiate any case in
which injustice had been done by Baron Pennefather.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. baronet (Sir J. Shelley) was only
using this motion as a mere stalking-horse, unless he was
prepared to go further and address the Crown upon the
subject. It was manifest that the Goverrment, by sitting
anent, were accessories either before or after the fact.
(Hear, hear.) Tho hon. baronet (Sir J. Shelley) had stated
no grounds for his motion—he had only stated the case of
a dissatisfied suitor. He (Mr. Napier) remembered that
when his most excellent friend and old master Sir a ohn
Patteson—a man to whom he was more indebted than
to any professional friend, -when he proposed to re-
tire, the noble lord the member fur the City of London
(Lord J.. Russell), to his honour and credit, sent for him
and said, " You are of, value ; if you will remain we will
have a substitute for you to go circuit, to prevent the occur-
rence of any inconvenience." (Hear.) The late Chief
Justice Doherty did not go the circuit for years. Baron
Pennefather being deprived of books, felt that the court
was a resort tohon, and he like i his duties there. He (Mr.
Napier) would ask any gentleman whether he would con-
sent to cast a stigma upon that learned person? No gentle-
man in England, Ireland, or Scotland would, he was con-
vinced, without any shadow of proof, consent to cast such
a stigma. (Hear, hear.) By such a course as this they
encouraged the newspapers to hold up the judges to attack.
MreJustice,C•ampton was now included in the category,
though, to use a familiar phrase, a more wide-awake judge
could not be toned on the bench. (Hear.) If they lessened
thi respect of the people for the judges they would strike
blow at the law of the land on the constitution. He asked
what should ice imp any old age?—"Honour and troops of
friends." He said that Baron Pennefather Chief Justice
Lefroy. and Mr. Justice Torrens hail both bonier anti
troops of friends. The hon.. baronet (air J. Shelley)
stated that there were hon. and learned gentlemen Who •
were aspirants for the bench, and in his (Hr. Napier'e)
own case he had trumped up some story which had not a
shadow of foundation. If he were oftered the high honour
of a seat on the bench, and if he felt that he had any infir-
mity which would previret him from properly discharging
the functions of the office he trusted that, when the time
arrived, he would have sufficient moral courage to decline
that honour. hear.) Mr. Baron rennefather
says—" I am 82 years of age. I have gone 63 circuits, and
I think that I can do my business. It is a pleasure to me
to do my duty, anti, are no dissatisfaction has been ex•
pressed, I do not wish to put the country to the expellee
of my retiring-salery." He (Mr. Napier), with the learned
judge, had every confidence in the justice of the House
of Commons, and he was persuaded that it would not cast
a stigma on a p chic servant who hail been f dthfui and
zealous in the aiisclaargu of his diity. This was a whole-
sale attack. What was the matter with Ju Igo T,reens ?
He sat every ilav during last term, and he looked as fresh
though perhaps less anxious, than the noble lord opposite.
(Hear, hear.) Chief Justice Lefroy finished his business
qgicker than many younger judges. Were they to have
a return of the ages of the Cabinet, of their generals, and
admirals? lie wanted to know where these inquiries were
to stop ? Ho put it to the house—was it becoming to
agree to such a motion ? If they did so, could they expect
the judges to be independent? If the judges were only to
be protected by a friendly government, and if they were
to be left unprotected by an unfriendly government, what
would be the effect on the administration of justice? Let
them be assured that so long as they did their. duty faith-
fully—though they might be old, aril subject to infirmity
--they would be protected in the upright and bonourable
discharge of their dutiei, and with these observations, he
would leave the case to the justice of the House of Coua-
MOUS. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY said that the right hon. gentleman had
made assertions which could not be supported. He alleged
that there had been some arrangement between the Go-
vernment and the hon. baronet, and he assumed that the
Government was unfriendly to the judges, and that it
would not defend them. These were totally unfounded
assertions. But the right hon. gentleman had assumed a
tone quite unconstitutional in limiting the authority of
the house with respect to inquiries as to the manner in
which judges discharged their duties. Last session an hon.
member asked whether the Government was aware of the
state of the judicial bench of Ireland. He asked whether
seine of. the judges were not "incapacitated by infirmity
from attending to their duties—and whether the Govern-
ment had not oeen obliged to find substitutes for them—a
course which necessarily entailed a charge noon the conso-
lidated fund. If. the house would agree to an address for
the removal of a judge, it could, of course, institute a
preliminary inquiry to ascertain whether there was any
truth in the allegation which had been brought forward.
He (Sir G. Grey) was present last session when a question
was put by his right hon. friend the Secretary for Ireland
on this subject. His noble friend at the head of the Go-
vernment was also present. The subject was never before
brought under has (Sir G. Grey's) attention. He never
heard any charge against the judges of Irel -rad for absent-
ing themselves from circuit or other duties:. But hearing
that question put, in a private letter which he addressed to
trre Lord Lieutenant of Irelaud, he informed him that such
a statement hail been made, and asked him (the Lord Lieu-
tenant) to furnish him with aoy grounds upon which such
a statement could be made. He (Sir G. Grey) asked if
there was any infirmity on the part of theirish judges that
obliged them to apply for substitutes. He received an an-
swer from his noble friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
in which he informed him that the statements were greatly
exaggerated. (Hear.) The Lord Lieutenant said that,
whatever might be the case with respect to the absence of
any of the judges on circuit, at the time he was then
writing every one of the judges were engaged in the dis-
charge of their duties in Dublin, and that he believed
every judge except Baron Richards, who was specially ex-
empt from going circuit, had regularly done so. He (the
Lord Lieutenant) a fled that he thought the only proba-
ble case was that of Baron Pennefather, of whoor, though
the Lord Lieutenant spoke in the highest terms as regarded
the vigocr of his mind anti his eminent endowments, h e
said he was urtfortunately totally blind, and that, though.
he believed he discharged his duties efficiently, he the
I Lord Lieutenant) could not defend his seat on the bench.
(Hear.) . He (the Lord Lieutenant) further informed him
that Baron Pennefather's absence from the bench would
be a serious loss—(a laugh)—owing to the manner in which
he discharge.] his duties ; at the same time it wasimpossiblo
to deny that his blindness did not give riselo dissatisfaction.
(Hear.) A charge had been brought forward iu that house
of the
thebabitual absence of those judges from their duty, and
them that several of were incapacitated, from age and in-
firmity,from going circuit; and- the member for West-
minster (Sir J. Shelley ) having given notice that in this
session he should propose a notice on the so -eject, and hav-
ing given that notice, ittecame necessary for the Govern-
ment to consider what their duty would be with respect to
such a motion. Shortly before the meeting of Parliament;
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland addressed to him (Sir Cr.
Grey) another private letter, repeating his high opinion of
Baron Pennefather, and also' stating that, as a question of
b bench principle,
bhe
y any j couldtnig en optejrums
permanently
t e
ntho l
y retentionafa ie
te of a se
d withtahteon the
infir-
mity of blindness, and therefore, not with the slightest
idea of casting any imputatiem on Baron Pennefather, but
owitrhdtiaetute,,t o
kindnessf oirfelleaanrdt_w(hhi,cahr,hi
wasa
ohe
requestedcharacteristic o
theth the
L
Lord Chancellor of Ireland to communicate to Baron Pen-
nefather that, if any motion should be brought before that
house, he thought the Government. would be unable-to de-
fend his continuance on the bench.
~,g_Haa„..) That com-
munication was made to Baron Pennefather by the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland. The Lord-Lieutenant then told him
(Sir G. Grey) what had been done, and he (Sir G. Grey)
tgwe gentleman m
notau
prepared to take any
told him he thought everything had been done that could
(Mr. Napier) pre-
tended ddeedh etita tirthhee GT tgoehetr nbm° n.
course upon this motion, but they thought it due to Baron
Pennefather that he should have an opportunity of laying
' his case before the house,-and that had been done by the
. right hon. gentleman. He (Sir G. Grey) had now stated
, . the whole of this transaction as respected the Government,
and he now asked the house whether any ground existed fur
, the charge made by the right bon. gentleman against the
Government, of any unconstitutional proceeding, or any
proceeding inconsistent with the station and age of Baron
Pennefather ? The right hon. gentleman defended Baron
Pennefather's character against no assailant. The only
charge, if it could be called a chargee-aeeainst Baron Pen-
; nefather—was one which they must all lament, that he
was permanently afflicted with blindness; his age was
. no disquali4cetion,_ excepting that it peeyented _spy'
hope, or at best a very elight one, that he would ever re-
• cover his sight._ He must say that, under these circum-
stances, the Government took a course which he hoped
' t
„ the house would not disapprove of; and he believed the

returnii
smh otyheed
cfaosre lewyb
itchhe
wr iagshstu lip op no
s.
egdent
otleexmi
satn. would not
Mr. DIStIAILI—Sir, I should not have presumed for a
moment to have come between the house and the important
business that follows on the piper, but for the observations
of the right hon. gentleman. the Secretary for the. Home
Department, who has just addressed us. They appear to
me, I confess, so unsatisfactory; and meet so little the
merits of the question, that I could not reconcile myself to
be quite silent upon the subject. I have not the honour of
tie acquaintance of Baron Pennefisther, and the only know-
ledge that I have of the circumstances brought under our
consideration to-night I have gathered in this debate ; but
I have enough to show me that there is connected with the
' subject much that ought to interest every member of the
House of Commons. I think that, though tho debate has been
• brief, its origin, its conduct, and the whole course of the
discussion, have been somewhat remarkable. The hon.
' xa-nnher for Westminster brings forward a motion which,
if it means anything, must mean, at least to unlettered
eats, th,..t, in consequence of• the age of the Irish judges,
thy are unable to fulfil their duties to the public by at-
tenting the circuit. The right lion. gentleman the Home
Secretary confesses that, in consequence of a question
in, this house last session with reference to that subject, he
felt it his duty—and certainty it Wes his duty—to commu-
ni ;eta with the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and inquire
whetter it was true that the Irish judges did not fulfil
their duty to the country, and did neglect gain.'° cir-
cuit in a manner /hat might have been expected from
men who held high office. ,By the admission of the right
hon. gentleman 111111801 n he received in answer that, the
' j edges did attend circuit regularlYandsedulouly, and then
he says in answer to a motion which is to convey a censure
upon the Irish judges, because they have not attended cir-
cuit, " we felt it our duty to examine whether this allega-
tion was true, that the Irish judges Ilia not attend circuit
in a manner that might be expected by the country, and
wo found that the allegation was not correct. (Cheers
from the Opposition.) We found th ,t the Irish judges
did attend circuit very regularly, but, by the bye, one of
' the Irish judges is blind, and therefore we shall agree to
the motion." (Laughter.) I must say that that is not to
me a satisfactory mode of meeting the question before us.
If the Government, by their researches and their official
communications, have ascertained that the assuruptiou
upon which apparently the hon member for Westminster
framed his motion, was utterly unfounded and fallacious,
ir, seems so me that it would have been tuoi'e ~tuaightfor'-
' ward and candid if the Government had given that as a
reason for not assenting to a motion, which, in itself, is
not very important, but su'its consequences may be inju:
' rious to those learned gentlemen, and which, viewed in a
' certain aspect, may afford a precedent which many of us,
! on both sides of the house, may live to regret. Tuere are
other parts of the right hon. gentlemen's speech which I
cannot help alluding to. He called my right hon. friend
(Mr. Napier) to account upon a ground which appears to
me to have been entirely erroaeons. He accuses him of
laying it down as a principle that the conduct of the hon.
member for Westminster in making the motion, and iufe-
rentially of the Government in assenting to the motion,
was unconstitutional ; and the. right hon. gentleman says,
" on the contrary, the house is not going to sanction the
priuciple ; that it is not the. duty of the House of Com-
mous to inquire, if necessary, into the conduct of j edges ;
that it is the duty of the House of Commons not merely
to inquire into the conduct of the judges, bat also to pro-
ceed to take ulterior steps if they think that there has
been any neglect in the administration of the judges, or if
vary of the judges have not fulfilled their duties to society."
But my right hon. friend never said anything of the kind.
He did not deny the right and the privilege of the House
of Commons to interfere if they suspect any injustice on the
pert of the judges; but what he did say, an I said most force
inly, "it is not politic, nay, I think it is unconstitutional,
for the Houee.of Commons to interfere with the conduct of
the judges of the land, unless they impute corruption or
inonicieney—(hear, hear)—and unless upon those allega-
tions they are prepared to act and to address the Crown to
remove the j edges." . (Hear, hear.) I have not heard that
any injustice or inefficiency is imputed. (Cheers from the
Treasury.) Whether those cheers from the Treasury bench
are cheers of approval of the principle I have laid down, I
know not, but if cheers of assent, I say that the course of
the Government is a spiii.less course. (Opposition cheers.)
I say that, under any circumstances, it was not their duty
to sanction the motion of the hon. member for Westmin-
ster, even if it had inclined to the opinion that the indi-
vidual chiefly interested in our discussion had not attended
circuit on account of the infirmity to which he is unhap-
pily subjected. The motion of tee hon. member for West-
minster dues not refer to that infirmity and that impres-
sion, and, consequently, all the three cases which he brought
forward—let the house remark this single circumstance—
have entirely sl. (Hear, hear.) If he said there are
two judges wno don't attend the circuit—and one who is
blind—we could not denysthe unfortunate circumstance of
Baron Penneirether being blind ; but the hon. member for
Westminster has framed his motion with such singular un-
adroitness that ho absolutely does not touch the only fact
which is admitted iu this debate, and is susceptible of de-:
nionstration. (A laugh.) Every man of sane mind and po-
litical experience must feel convinced that nothing can be
more indiscreet, unwise, imeolitic, and ungeneri-us than
pulling the judges of the land into the House of Commons, ,
unless there is ono Of those irresistible cases which ren-
ders it Cie duty of the house to interfere: (Hear, hear.)
An interference with the administration of justice by a
branch- -and i. popular brunch-of the Leeislature, is the
last and most solemn cause which aggrieved subjects in this
laud can, by petition, ask you to take ; but in ;he present :
case we have not a le lion which refers to this learnee in-
dividual.
.We have not a publi i corupleint.'(Eleao) We
have not, strange ' to say, an anonymous slander. We
have gentlerueu rising iu thole seen; and reading even
articles from newspepere. (Hear.) The only article which
was read from a newspaper—an I the right of hon. mem-
bers to read these I was not ',were of until to-night —was
absolutely one in favour of Baron Pennefather. What are
we t o think of the Government assenting to and sauetion-
iug the incoherent proposition of the hon. member for
Westeniueter? and whet are we to t'dtik of the opinion of
the accompliihed and amiable viceroy on whose communi-
cation, I think, they so unadvisedly acted? The perplexed .
(labium, consult the Lorii-Lieutenant, and he writes to this
etrect—•` He 11,8 the pleasure to inform the right, hou. se-
cretary that all the Irish judges ,are in perfect health, and
are about to attend the circuit. He regrets, as an abstract
principle, jutges being blind, but he feels it his duty to
state that, if Baron Pennefather loves the bench, his loss
will be a, sat ions injury to the G worn ineut." ( Expressions
of dissent.) Nu ; the Lord-Lieutenant did not state that.
(Laughter.) Probably he expressed his opinion of the
value, character, services, and career of Baron Pennefather
in much more giacefel language than I ate able to do it in
the hurry of detnete. But, as an 'rich judge, the Lord-
Lieutenant said his Services wore invaluable. (Rev.) Nay
more, as my- right hon. and learned friend has just in-
, termed rue, the Lord-Lieutenant said, in answer to the
confidential inquiry of the Pi hue Minister, that if Baron
Pennefather quitted the bench it would be a great loss to
Ireland. (Hear.) And because-jam want to give Inin a hint
to quit the bench, you sanction this miserable and indecent
motion. (Cheers.) Well, upen.the constitutional point, I
imagine that on both sides of the house there cannot be
the slightest difference of opinion. No can can say that
it is advisable that the coadust of the ju‘ig.s of the land
'should be brought under discussion in the Home of Com-
mons unless the case is clear and strong, and I think that
sanctioning a motion which the right hon. secretary ad-
mits, if granted, will not affect the only point which can
at all interest the house in this wetter, viz., the peculiar
infirmity of an individual, is one of the most unsatisfac-
tory courses which a Government can take. This
gentleman, whom I don't kneW, except by fair repute—
which we all acknowledge —ie h judge, and he is old.
(Hear.) That is the great fault in the eyes of the Secre-
tary for Ireland, who cheered the observation.
Mr. HORSMA.N—No.
Mr. DISRAELI—WeII, then, he thinks it a merit.
(Hear.) The right bon. member for the University of Dub-
lin very happily alluded to that greet display of eloquence
and intellectual power whiCh commanded, I may say ar-
rested, the attention not only of this country but of Europe
in another place, a few nights two —made by a man who
also was a judge, and who, fortunately, is older than Baron
Pennefather. Whet a compitaient to the distinguished and
able man who brought forward that question is the course
which has been taken by the G nrernment to-night. In
fact, I can only account for it in this way—that it is a kind
of a return on the part of the Government for the advision
in another place. (A. laugh.) What a compliment to that
noble and learned lora , when those who may nut agree
with his views all agree upon one point—viz.,. in admira-
tion of his eloquence and ability. Wriat a complim3ut to
the House of Commons, that, by a side wind and by a
back door, it should be called upon to come to a resolution
that judges of 82 are ineump tent, and ought to retire from
the bench. Who sum viel the noble a el learned lord on
tout occasion ? Wercrtney iugre m yenta who came to that
great oratorical arena to vinnic ate the principles of the
constitution, and by their learnieg to command the respect
and attention of the country ? Wily, I dare say, there was
not a man among them who had physical energy enough to
be a candidate for the city of Westminster. (Laughter )
That debate was conducted and sustained by men, very
few of whom were inferior in age to the Irish judge,
whose conduct, in brought before the House of Commons
without a single cotnplaint haviog been made against him
--(hear, hear)—and what answer would it hive been for
the Government on that rico ision—not very remarkable
for their prowess in clebaee —bad, the leader of the Gevern-
ment in another place risen and said, "This important
question has undoubtedly been brought forward by one
altohad!'a n
and illuhas rious reputation with arena eloquence and
learning,
been supported by halta-dozeu of the
oldest arid wisest men in the house. Brit I cannot believe
1 the peers of Englandocsed,
would
san
counselled,etio iti entl.supported." a resolution
A which
cannot proposed,
,myself believe that the House of Com-
loildu then.) hake a
nous, after a few, minutes!. consideration, will sanction
these imputations against an •individual whom all admit
, ' to be a
,man of great intellectual p,wer, a judge of great
experience, and, perhaps, even riew,
if unrevited, of effi-
ciency in Ireland, and whose panege ric has been read to-
. night, written by one who is a political opponent, and who
, wes promoted a Baron of the Ex.bequer by political influ-
ence,
.but who, with a frankness which does him honour,
• has on this important occasion expressed in admirable lien-
-1 guage the clear convictions of his reason. Well, sir, it is
not age that is the crime—though that is never to be for-
given even by the House of Commons--but the judge is
I blind. Why, I thought the peculiar characteristic of jus-
tice was that it was to be blind. (Cries of " Oh !") It
r certainly has been provedlo-night that it is not. Yet
• some of the greatest men have been blind, and under these
circumstances have achieved and accomplished their great-
; est deeds. I need net remind the house that the greatest
r poem of modern times was written by a blind man. The
1 city of Constantinople, which even the Czar of Russia,
• could not take, was taken by. the blind are, more than oc-
togenarian, Doge Daudola. I believe the truth is that the
. doge was nearer 100 than the age of Baron Pennefather-n
he being 97 years old. Why,
the eminent person who so
l distinguished himself the other night in the other house of
, Parliament, and who is older than Baron Pennefather,
was himself couched for disease of the eyes ; and yet no
one has ventured to charge him with incompetency.
Sir G. GREY said that it was ten years since that noble
and learned lord was a judge.
Mr. DISRAELI— I am ,surprised to hear a member of
the Government get up and say that Lord Lyndhurst is not
a judge. Why, isnot the House of Lords the highest judie
cial tribunal in the kingdom ? and does not the noble and
learned lord constantly attend in his place to discharge the
highest functions of the bench ? (Hear, hear.) This is a
motion which confessedly cannot injure Baron Penne-
• father. On the contrary, it will redound to his credit, but
whether it will redound to the credit of her Majesty's Mi-
nisters is a question which I will leave to the country.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not mean tcr assert
that because a judge was turned 80 years of age he should
. be removed from the bench; so long,as he retained the fa-
I 1 oulties of mind and body sufficient for the discharge of the
important duties of his Office se long was he entitled to re-
tain it. It was stated last session that seine of the Irish
• judges, in consequence of their age and infirmities, were
, I incapable if going circuit. His right hon. friend, the Home
I i Secretary, had thought it his duty to inquire into the mat-

were incapable of dischargieg their duties. The only qi;s-
tion was whether that statement was true or not. Most
men were visited with infirmities at a certain period of life,
there were indeed some exceptions, one man of 80 was as
Capable as another at 60 ; if, however, it was attempted to
lay dewu as a general rule that men over 80 werecompetent
to the discharge of jndicial functions, he must beg to dis-
sent. He hid not the honour of Baron Pennefather's ac-
quaintance; but from all he 'had ever heard, it was impos-
sible nett° feel satisfied that there never had been a more
able or more upright judge in England or in Ireland. He
believe.l that Baron Penuefather was as entirely capable as
ever to diseherge certain duties, that his mind was as clear,
his legal knowledge as sound. Unfortunately, however,
for him, and perhaps also for the public, his labours
could not entirely be confined to the sittings iu banco ;
he would be as capable as, ever to weigh forensic argu-
ments and come to a decision, but English and 'ride
judges had other duties to discharge, they had to go
circuit and preside at, Nisi Prime they had, above all, to
preside at a criminal trial. It. was the great characteristic
of English and Irish law that the witnesses were examined
not only viva voce but in the presence of the judge and
jury, and they formed their opinion as to the character
and credibility of the witnesseee not only from what they
slid, but from their demeanour. To observe that de-
meanour was one of the most important functions of the
judge, and to direct the jury to determine the credit they
should attach to a
,witness from the manner in which he
gave his evidence. Another most important part of a
judge's duty was to take notes of the proceedings at the
time. It was stated indeed tht Baron Pennefether availed
himself of the services of a short-hand writer, but he could
not avail himself of these notes during the trial, or in his
charge to the jury. It was the undoubted right of a party
to have any portion of the evidence read to the jury, and
could they imagine a inure painful spectacle than if such
au appeal wee made:to Baron Pennefather? However
much disposed he might be to admire the attainments and
the talents of that learned judge, however deeply he
might deplore his being reduced to the unhappy condition
in which he now was, but which incapacitated him from
the discharge of some of the most important functions of
his olfice, yet be could not but feel that the time was come
when with benefit to the public he might retire from the
discharge of those duties. (Haar, hear.)
Sir P. THESIGER thought the right. hen. Attorney-
General had led the house astray from the question before
It. (Hear.) They were not then considering the capacity
of Baron Pennefather. It would seem'froiri the right hon.
gentleman's speech that the motion was in fact one for the
removal of Baron Pennefather. (Hear.) The motion,
however, only asked fur a return of the date of the call and
appointment of the Irish judges, and the Danaher of times
they were absent from circuit. • What were the grounds
made out for the Motion ? The mover referred to three
cases, Chief Justice Lefroy, Judge Torrens, and Baron
Pennefather, and made some strong remarks on the infir-
mities of the latter. The right hon. baronet the Secre-
tary for the Home Department referred however to a re-
turn which showed there was not a single instance of the
absence of either of the three individuals referred to.
Sir G. GREY—I said that Baron Pennefather was most
regular in his attendance, but that with regard to the
other two I hal no information. _

Sir F. THESIGER said that there was no information
which showed that all th 4 three had been most regular in
their attendance. Surely the house would not pass a
motion like this, unless some ground were laid for it. Had
it not been for the blindness of Baron Pennefather, no-
thing whatever could have been alleged in support of the
motion. The Attorney-General seemed to think that that
infirmity rendered the baron unfit for the duties of his
high office, and he had intimated that at a certain time of
life—say eighty—a judge ought to retire.
The ATTORN.ZY-GENERAL—No, no; I said nothing
of the kind. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. THESIGER, admitted that he had misunderstood
the hon. and learned gentleman. Ho differed from his'
learned friend as to the duty of a judge to comment on the
demeanour of witnesses; it was for the jury to judge of
this. But it was said the learned baron could not take
notes of the evidence. Now, it was known that there
were different ways of taking notes—some judges did it
very carefully—some very slovenly. To his knowledge,
Chief Baron Alexander never took a note on circuit, but
had the marshal by his side to do it for him.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—But the judge road
the notes after.

Sir F. THESIGER was at present speaking of taking
the notes. He believed Lord Lyndhurst pursued the same
practice. In teed, many judges thought that taking notes
only distracted their attention from the points of the case,
and it had been suggested that shorthand writers should be
employed in all the courts to perform this duty. He under-
stood that Baron Pennafather had such a remarkable me-
mory that he could recall and sum up all the facts of a
most complicated case. He had '.lone this in a very im-
portant will case which had lasted five days. But they
wore not trying Baron Pennefather ; the motion merely
asked for returns of the attendance of the judges; but he
could not resist the belief that it was in reality an attack
on Baron Pannefather, and an attempt to drive him from
the bench. It would be likely to produce the most mis-
chievous effect on the administration of justice generally.
Mr. S. WOUTLEY could not support the motion, for
he felt there was no prima facie case made out to carry it
further, so as hi send a memorial to the Crown ; but at the
same time he was not prepared to sanction the prii,ciple
that a judge, however competent in his facult:es, was qua-
lified in jury eases to hold his seat when it had pleased
God to afflict him with the loss of sight.

Mr. GEOLtUE ~lefendA the ,eharacier of Mr. B troll Pen-
netather, and charged the G,wernaient with being the
originators of the inotipn.
BLIUCE said when be had brought on a sirni7
lar maim] on a former occasion,..it was from information
he recoivd from some friends of his that some of the
judges were unable to attend to their duties, and he had
eve ry to believe that that ieform3tion was correct.
:Sir R. FERGUSON defended tho char,cter of Baron
Ponnefath, r.

Mr. J. G. PEIELLIALOW-I'conld not vote for the mo-
tion, ftB there was no o re ursde out to justify it, and such
a decision world be unjust and

Lord PALUERSTO-N—Sir, I must say, with regard to
the speech of the right hon. gentleman the member for the
University of Dublin (Hr. Napie ), that in that speech
there was a great deal of very good indignation thrown
away. The right hon. g .ntleman nn lertook to defend the
character of Baron Pennefather, which stands above any
imputation, and upon which no ire pute,tien has in my
hearing ever been cast ; and it seemed to me that he rather
wished to draw the house away from that which was the
real question to ho considered, and to convert the question
into a personal one, instead of leaving it one which I
think the Ileum) of Commons is perfectly competent to
deal with. (Hear, hear.) The allegation made last ses-
sion was, that in consequence of infirmity many of the
Irish judges were unable to attend their circuits, and that
tho result of this was, that charges wore thrown on the
public for the supplying of their places as regarded the
performance of circuit duticr. Well, now, I think that
is a matter which this house is entitled to inquire into.
(Hear, hear.) The house is entitled to inquire why ad-
ditional charges are thrown on the public in consequence.
of the retention of judicial situations hymen who, through
infirmity or any other cause, are unable to perform the
duties which belong to these situations. I think that,
without any infringement of the constitutional principle
of the perfect independence of the judges, Parliament may
inquire whether or not there is any ground for supposing
that such additional charges are thrown upon the public
by a failure on the part of the judges. I therefore think
my hon. friend the member for Westminster was perfectly
justified iu giving the notice that he did at the end of the
last session, that at the beginning of this session he would
bring forward the motion which is now before the house.
(Hear, hear.) Well, now, as my right hon. friend the
Secretary of State for the Home Department has stated,
he and I felt it our duty to inquire of the Lord Lieutenant
privately whether failures hart occurred to such an extent
as would justify the interference of Parliament. Un-
rs
doubtedly the answer which we received from my noble
friend was to the effect that there had not been, in point
of fact, that degree of absence which my hon. friend who
introdu -ed the subject last year (hEr. Brine) supposed.
That there has been some failure my noble friend the
Lord Lisutenant admitted ; but it has not gone to
the extent which ray honourable friend imagined. I sug-
gested to my noble friend that if failures did habitually
take place—l was not then aware that by law any addi-
tional charge falls, astahmat there mightcourse,atterofbe so
on the
discretioneo imaginingnsolida-
tweidebflienegli,iedtrt payment—l suggested, I say, to my noble
frinait
who, by retaining their
situations when age or irefirroit
Y disqualified them from
t performingbteeGo in
ew
r, that h
ov n m
substitutes for them,
he shkind. I found, however, that there was no °ogee, and that
moankitnhg any advances in cases of that
at account was thrown on the
byconsolidatedainhLi nYci e
chargeefctliinnct Now, sir, out of this question has arisen
the question, whether a judge who is afflicted with blind-
ness is or is not a proper person to continue in the perform-
ance of judicial functions? That question having been
mooted, I must say that my opinion upon it agrees entirely
with that of my right hon. friend the Attorney• General. I
would put the ease in this way— I would ask whether any
Government would appoint for the first time a person who
hail been afflicted with the loss of sight to the situation of
a judge? (Hear.) Nobody would dream of doing so ; and if
that infirmity would disqualify a learned barrister from
being appointed a judge, I think the inference is that if
that infirmity attends a judge he is disqtralified for per-
forming some of the duties of his .office. (Hear.) It has been
said that the object of the Government in making these in-
quiries was to drive an Irish judge from his situation for
the purpose of creating a vacancy. I utterly repudiate
that imputation. (Hear, hear.) • There has been no hu-
putation thrown on Baron Pennefather, but that is an im-
putation against her Majesty's Government, and I repel it
with the greatest indignatien, and declare it to be utterly
without foundation. (Hear, hear.) Sir, the only motive
which we had in making-these inquiries, was a regard for
the respect and consideration which was due to the
'bench. That is the motive that induced us to make
those inquiries, and that is the motive which has in-
duced us to support the motion of my honourable friend
the member for Westminster. Sir, it is for my hon.
friend to consider whether, having regard to the turn of
the debate —(derisive laughter from the Opposition)—it is
expedient for him to press his motion. The foundation on
which this motion was brought forward was the supposi-
tion that great laches existed—that there had been a great
failure of duty on the part of members of the Irish bench.
I think the house must have beep satisfied., by the facts
which have been stated this evening, that tlOtt supposition
is not well founded—(hear, hear)—that there has not been
that failure of duty on the part of membere of the Irish
bench, whether from the infirmities of age or from other
causes, the supposition of which was the iirouudwork of
whether my hon. friend's motion. Undoubtedly, if the motion
uliie h 7 before stated, I
ether the judges
goes tea division I shall feel it my duty, on constitutional
thinkgrounds,
the
to
housesupp
Laserrt a
it ,
rightbecause,
to ncis as
have performed the duties which have devolved upon them
in the manner in which theyought to beperformed. (Hear.)
At the same time, I must say that, although this house
has no official or Parliamentary leunwledi;e of what his
Ileceye)nmisitlaltnecolt be intl:isdpeoles,a(tiet,oydeit:puaste, that I 'tis suppositionit has lbeen stated this
evening, on authority, which my hon. fed, aid (Sir J: Shela
is not well founded—that being the case, I r ray, perhaps on
the whole it would be more consistent with due respect to
those learned persons, whom the right hon. , gentleman op-
posite (Mr. Napier) has so eloquently defended, and more
agreeable as a matter of personal feeling, tht it the motion
should be withdrawn, than that it should be. pressed to a
division.
Sir J. V. SHELLEY replied. • He had to ,complain 'of
having been misrepresented. The right ho,n. gentleman
the member for the University of Dublin hat i. accused him
of calumniating the character of Baron Pen. nefather. So
far from that, he said everything that ho condi say to ex-
press his admiration of the learned baron-04On, how.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIOYS.

HOUSE OF COMNIONS.-FF.B. 14,
JUDICIAL BENCH (IRELAND).

Motion made and question proposed, " That there be laid
before this house a return of the date of the call to the
bar of each of the Judges of the Superior Courts of Law
in Ireland; the dates of their respective appointments
as Judges ; the number of times each has been absent

during !.he wholo of any assize ; or, if absent during a
part only, stating what part, and the reasons, if any,
given for such absence ; also, in how many, and in what
instances, substitutes have been appointed-by the Crown
to preside at any assize, or portion thereof, in the ab-
sence of any such Judge, giving in each case the name of
the town." Sir John Shelley—Amendment proposed,
to leave out the words "in Ireland." Question put—
" That the words proposed to be left out stand part of
the question." The house divided—Ayes 131, Noes 120.

1 AXES —l3l.
Acton, Joseph Foley, J. H. Morris, D.
Aeair, 11. Forater, Charles Mulgrave, Carl of
Ale ick, T. Forster, John Napier, Sir C.
Anderson, Sir J. Freestun, Colonel North, F.
Antrobue, E. Gardner, R. Oliveto, B.
Atherton, W. Gibson, 4. Osborne, R.
Bagshaw, J. Giftird, Earl of Otway, A.
Baines, Rt. Hon. M. Glyn, G. Paget, Lord A.
Baring, Sir F. Goderich, Viscount Palmerston, Viscount
Barnes, T. - . Gordog, A. Paxton, Sir J.
Baxter, W. Gower, F. - Pe,3l, F.
Berkeley, Sir G. Grace, 0. Pellatt; 'A. „
Berkeley, G. Gregson, Samuel Perry, Sir E: * •
Itonverie, Hon. E. P. Grey, Rt. lion. Sir G. Pilkington, J.
Brand, 11. B. W. Hadfield, George Price W. •
Brocklehurst, J. Hall, Sir Benjamin Ricardo, S.
Brotherton, J. Hankey, T. Rice, E.
Brown, W. Hamner, Sir John Rim, y, George
Bruce, Lord E. Hastie, Alex. Robartes, T.
Bruce, IT. A. 'Jostle, A rchd. Roebuck, J. A.
Buckley, Geri. Hay ter, W. Russell, F. C.
Chambers, M. Heneage, Geo. F. Scholefield, W.
Clay, sir W., [St. Herbert, S. Scobell, Capt.
Clifford, Lt. Col. li. M. Heyworth, L. Seymour, 11.
Clinton, Lord It. Higgins, G.- 0. ' Smith, R.
Colthett. J. H:ndiey, C. Steel, John
Cockburn, Sir A. J. E .Horsinan. E. Thontrson, G.
Collier, It. P. Howard. C. Thornily, T.
Cowper, W. Hughes, W. Tire, W.
era:want, E. 11. J. Ingham, I:. - Villiers, C.
Crook, J. Jackson, W. Vivian, H. H.
Crossley, F. Keating, It. Warner, E.
Dent, J. King, L. Watson, W.
Dill vvyn, L. L. Kinnaird, A. Whatman, J.
Duff, G. Kirk, W. Whitbread, S.
Outr, J. Laboilit'-:ere,llt.non.Ti Wickham, 11.
Duke. Sir J. ' Layard, N. H. 'Willcox, B
Duncan, Viscount Lewis, Sir 0.. C. Williams, W.
Duncin, George Lowe, li. ' Wilson, J.
Dunda,, F. Luce, T. Wool, Sir C.
imillop. A. At ang'es. Ti. Wortley, J. S.
Ellice, E. Massey, W. Wyviil, M. .
Ewart, W. lilill Igoe, rt.
Eiva,t, J. Milnes, R. . TELLERS.
I,enw ck, H. Ail offat, it. Shelley. Sir J.
Ferguson, J. Efonek, Vie. Wilkinson, W.
NOti3-12).
Ailderiev, C. B. Gorge, .T. Moore, G.
Arbutlinott, Gen. H. Greaves' E. Morgan, 0.
Baillie, Hri H. Cr .eall, Gilbert Mowbray, J. It.
Baring, T. Greene, Capt. John Mullings, J. R.
Barrington, Vist. Gr.:ene, Thomas Murrough, J. P.
Barrow, W. Grogan. Edward Nadi., Lord
Bennet, Capt. P. Grosvenor, Earl Na icr, J. •
Bentiock. G. Guinness, R. S. Pakington, Sir J.
Blandford, Marquis of Gwyn, Howe! Palk, L.
Bond, J. Hamilton, U. A. Palmer. Robert
!both, Sir Rt. Gore Harcourt, Col. Peacocks, G.
Bramley- IV ore, J. Headlam, T. Percy, J.
Braraston, T. W. Henley, J. Repton, G.
Buck, G. Herbert, Sir T. Robertson, P.
Butt, G. M. Holfo-1, R. Reit, P.
Byng, G. lI.C. HorsfaP; T. Rust, James
Cecil, Lord Hume, W. Scott, F.
Child, Smith Johnstone, J. Seyiner, H.
Cholmondeley, Lord Jones, D. Shee, Seri t. W.
Christy, Samuel Keratin, Sir E. Sibthorp, Major
Clinton, Lord C. King, J. Smith, Abel
Cole, H. A. Knatehbull, W. Spooner, R.
Corry, 11. T. L. Knox, Col. B. W. Stafford, A.
Davies, I). Langton, FL G. Stewart, Sir M.
Davies, J. Laslett, W. Stuart, Captain
I)avison,'lt. Lennox, Lord H. G. Sullivan, Michael
Deedes, William Liddell, li, G. Thesiger, Sir. F.
Denny, Sir E. Macartney; G. Tollemache, J.
Disraeli, B. MacEvoy, B. Tyler, Sir G.
Duncornire, lion. A. MacGregor, James Vance, John
Duncombe. 0. MacMah3ll, P. Vansit tart, G.
Dunne, Colonel Maddock, Sir 11. Vernon, Capt. L.
Egerton, Edw. C. 10 agan, W. WalcOtt, Admiral.
Elliott, J. E. Maguire. J. F. Warren, S.
Emiyn, Viscount Mal ins, Richard Whitmore. H.
Evelyn, W. J. Maeners, Lord G. Willoughby, Sir IL
Ferguson, Sir R. Manners, Lord J. Wl4O, A.
Ferguson, Sir,J. Meux, ••Ir 11. Wynn), W.
Filmer, Sir E. Niles, W. TELLERS.
Fortescue, C. S • Michell, William Kennedy, T.
French, Fitzstephen Montgomery, Sir G. Taylor, Colonel

Main Question put :—Tho house divided. One of the
Tellers announced that Sir James Duke, Member for the
City of London, refused to vote; whereupon Mr. Speaker
desired that ho should come to the table. Tho honour.
able Member accordingly came to the table, and state
that he had not heard the question put, having been in
the left division lobby at the time. The Speaker then
informed him that, not having been within the walls of
the house, and not having heard the question put, he
need not dtite, but might wit hdraw ; and he withdrew
accordingly. Whereupon the tellers announced the
numbers—Ayes 132, Noes 121.

Sporting Intelligence.

TATTERSALL'S-THURSDAY.

The business of paying and receiving on the recent
events at Lincoln occupied the greater portion of the
afternoon. Towards the close speculation was resumed
on events to come, but the transactions were few, and
for the most part unimportant.
Yellow Jack strongly maintained his position at 3 to
1 for the Two Thoumii. An attempt was made to
give Fiy-by•Night "a 1if..," but aft,r 4 to 1 had been
taken about him, he dropped back to 9 to 5 ; it is, how-
ever, only right to state th.at these odds were taken to
upwards of 1001. 60 to 40 was booked about the two.
For the Derby some hedging money was laid against
the former at 14 to 1, but the odds currently offered did
not exceed 13 to 1. 9to 1 was taken to 501. about El-
lington, 1,500 to 100 abOut Rogerthorpe, and 300 to 100
about John Day's lot." The quotations at the close
were as follows :

LIVERPOOL STEEPLECHASE.
10 to 1 agst Sir Peter Laurie (t)
25 to 1 agst Jemmy the Black (t)
25 to 1 agst Jean du Quesne (t)
GREAT METROPOLITAN STAKES.
14 to 1 agst Pyrrna. (taken)
GREAT :MORMON HANDICAP.
7to 1 agst Fandango (taken)
TWO THOUSAND GUINEAS STAKES.
3 to 1 agst Yellow Jack (taken, 100 to 35 also
taken)
9 to 2 agst Fly-by-Night (taken)
6to 4 agst The two (taken)
CHESTER CUP.
12 to 1 agst Yellow Jack (taken)
1000 to 60 agst Yorkshire Grey (offered)
50 to 1 agst Stork (taken)
DERBY.
3to 1 agst John Day's lot (talon)
9to 1 agst Klington (taken)
13 to 1 agst Yellow Jack (taken)
• 15 to 1 agst R4gerthorpe (taken)
By the authority of Admiral Rous, the. following
notice was posted in the room:—
" Monday, Feb. 18, at four o'clock.—Members of the
committee and the betting room at Newmarket are re-
quested to meet, to take into consideration what races
shall in future be considered play or pay."

NOTTINGHAM I
Acceptances for the Notti
One mit: and a half. 32

RACES, MAILOII 4.
Angham Spring Handicap.
subs, 13 of whom declared.
Age st lb
FuWeek ...... 4 6 11
Staffordshire Nan 3 6 7
De Ginkel 3 6 6
Omer Paella
The Barones3, by
Melbourne 3
6
Pollux
Shelah
Van Brakel .... ;
. 3 5 11
a. 6
The Village Crock 11

Age at lb
Haco
Jack Leming
Le Juif
Gamekeeper
Mary 4 7 11
Palmerston 4 7 10
Van NV i;:kle
Jemmy the Black a 7 7
St. Clare 5 7 7
Sir 11.6 w Trim-
chard

The highest weight acewtingTheing under Bst 71b, it
has been raised to that weight, and the rest in prop',
ion.

The CHAIRMAN, in moving the adoption of the roper`, called
attention to the increase of traffic on the line. During the past
half-year the gross receipts on the line had shown an increase
of 57,786/. over those of the corresponding period of 1854 ;
and the Working expenses had only increased by 12,9731. The
working expenses for the half-year included a considerable out-
lay on the permanent way on the Dorchester and Portsmouth
. lines, amounting to 9,4261.; they had also provided two addi-
tional engines out of revenue, and there were two eng nes on the
stocks. For an additional charge of 12,97:31. they had. run 59,663
additional miles. They had alSo placed 5,00,./. to the reserve
fund, for the renewal of the steam-boats, instead of 2,5001.
as originally proposed. They did so because the latter was
Ithe best half-year of the two. There was a sum of 106,0001.
expended on the line between Andover and Salisbury, which
was unproductive, and interest had bean charged to revenue
on that amount. The practice with other companies was. to
charge the interest during construction to capital. These and
other matters would show that their interests were properly
,:tteuded to. Tne North and South-Western Junction was the
only guarantee they had, and that would pay a dividend at the
rate of 5. per cent, per annum for the past half-year beyond
all liabilities from that company to contribute a certain
amount ; and at the same time he had the gratification to
state that 62,0:4 tons of coals were conveyed to their station
at Brantford from the North and South-Western Junction
line. The coals were circulated over the South-Western sys-
tem as far es Dorchester, a distance of 110 miles from London,
and had of course increased the traffic. Among the resolu-
tions he had to submit there was one for voting two sums to
be carried from the suspense account to the capital account,
one amounting to 25,6921. for additional plant, and another
to 20,2491. for new works and sidings during the year 1855.
They had experienced considerable anxiety both ou the part
of shareholders and directors to close the capital account.
In 1850 the company suffered considerable prersure from the
construction of various branches which had not come into
full operation, and a committee was appointed- to ascertain
the condition of the company, the state of the plant, and
the sum requisite to snake it efficient. They soon exhausted
their estimates, and theyreserted to the expedient of pay-
ing for the plant out of the revenue During four half-
years they had charged 25,000/: to- revenue,' but such was
the growth of their traffic and the necessity for extended
sidlitss and additional accommodation, that they were
obliged t' abandon the system- of paying everytLing
out of the revenue. They never had renewal funds
or depreciation funds, but adopted the honest course of keep-
ing up the stock in efficient order as they went along. A
question arose as to what was the proper proportion of work-
ing stock for a line, and after various inquiries it was ascer-
tained that the nearest approximatioa to the amount would
be the year's revenue ; that was, whatever the amount of
the gross revenue was for the year, that was. about the sum
to expend on the working stock ; and to show that they hid
not expended the full amount on their stock; he would read
a statement on the subject. In 1350 they had expended
1541,3851. on their working stock, and the traffic receipts
amounted to 529,103/. ; in 1851 to 551,4561., and the traffic
to 656,420 ; in 1852, to 570,1601., and the trifle to 611,2411;
in 1853, 570,160/., and the traffic to 639,241; in 1854,
618,192/:, and the traffic to 723,828/..; and in 1855, the out-
lay on the working stock amounted to 602,9721., and the
traffic receipts to 817,7011. That would show they had
not expended the full amount required for their stock.
Ho had told the proprietors .12 months ago that they
could not charge anything to Capital for additional sidings,
plant, and station accommodation, until they had first had
the vote of the proprietors. For the half-y ,ar ending last
July they bad made no charge, but they now submitted the
outlay for their sanction. This was similar to the course re-
commended by a veiny highly intellectual committee of con-
-sultation lately appointed by the proprietors of the London
and North-Western Company. Ile had ascertained that the
increase of traffic on the line in consequence of the war was
very small. They bad had about 12,0001. from warlike pas-
sengers, and about 8,0001. for other traffic to the camp at
Aldershott. Tho trade to Portsmouth and Southampton bad
been injuriously affected by the war in consequence of the
Government requiring the mail steamers for transports.
At the same time the price of building and other materials
was increased, which checked building iu the suburban dis-
tricts, and the traffic on 19 of the smaller stations en tht
line had decreased. Ho believed, on the whole, that per so
would give them a larger traffic titan they could attain during
war. Their dividend amounted to 5 per eeut. for the year,
leaving a balance over of 11,000/. He believed they were in
a better condition than any of the other metropolitan lines,
and all that was required to insure success was unanimity
among the shareholders and good conduct at their meetings,
avoiding dissensions and treating the board with respect.
Mr. EAeLEFIELD wished to know whether it was intended
to charge against revenue the interest on the 1,04,0001.
which Parliament had authorised them to raise for the Exeter
extension line ? As the chairman had takes credit for charg-
ing the interest on the 106,0001. to revenue, he wished to
know whether the same course would be pursued with regard
to the extension to Exeter ?

The CHAIRMAN said :t had been the practice of many rai'-
way c .thpanies to charge iuteiest to capital duriog coustrue-
tion.

Mr. UZIELLI said of course the mode of charging t',e inte-
rest would be specified iu the bill, and that would be deter-
mined by Parliament.

The Solicitor thought they had better not discuss that
matter at present.
Mr. IiZRAPATH thought the chairman had made a mistake
with respect to the resolutions recommended by the Loudon
.and North-Western Committee of Consultation. What they
proposed was, that no expenditure of capital should be in-
curred, without first obtaining the consent of toe share-
ers. (Hear, hear.) In the South-Western Company, the
directors had expended the money without the permission of
the shareholders, then placed it to a suspense account, and
afterwards asked them to confirm the outlay. That was a very
different matter. The words were "that no addi.iou what-
ever be made to the capital expenditure of the company,
without its being previously sanctioned by a vote of a general
meeting ;" so that they should nut incur any expenditure
without having first obtained the sanction of a general
meeting. . _

The CHAIRMAN said they did the same thing ; they placed
the expense to a suspense account, and did not charge it to
capital r7ithout the consent of the shareholders.

Mr. HERAPATII did not tako that view of it,

Mr. Wool) asked a number of questions with regard to
items in the accounts, which wtte explained by the auditors
and Mr. Uzielli.

Mr: PUNCHIER thought itrightto state that he had spent
several hours of the day before in examining the accounts of
the company, and he had never seen accouws so nicely pre-
pared, and he had every reasin to believe them accurate.
Their affairs were certainly in a `sound and prosperous posi-
tion.

Mr. HELPS thought the agitation they had had was very
beneficial to the company. The dividends Lad increased every
half-year in consequence. (A. Voice —" Yes, in spite of it.")
Ho had lately been looking over, souse evidence relating to the
Eastern Counties Company, in which It was stated that a coal
dealer had had exclusive rates on the South-Western line until
Mr.. Mortimer came on the board, bat that the dealer had
since done a large business at rates charged to other parties.
They were therefore very much obliged to Mr. Mortimer for
that large business at high rates. Ho complained of the
enormous fees charged by Parliamentary agents, and for
short-hand notes that were not required. As they had a bill
now before Parliament, he thought they should introduce
some clauses in it which should deline the business to be done
at the special and half-yearly meetings of the co•epany.
Mr. GAsKin suggested that 39 days' notice required to be
given by a candidate for a scat at the board be abolished. Ho
also adverted to the practice of giving free passes on the
line, which he believed was very injurious to their revenue.
There was an interchange of raises with the officers of other
companies, and he thought it would be a good thing to break
down the system altogether. He would call upon the secre-
tary for an explanation.
Mr. MoaTiatsa said it might be a very delicate matter to
meddle with the pasies, for in developing the traffic at Soutl.•
ampton it was found necessary to afford facilities to certain
officials to carry on the business there, and he believed every
care was taken that none but the Tight party should have
them.

The SECRETARY explained that there were fewer passes
granted on their line that on any other. Every pass was re-
turned to the Traffic Committee ; the reason for granting
them in every case was given ; and he might say the number
issued was considerably reduced since he came into office.
There were only five old directors who enjoyed a free pass,
and these were granted in consideration of long services.
With regard to the interchange of free passes with the di-
rectors of other companies, it was a question of policy, as it
enabled them to see how the traffic was carried on, and to
suggest improvements ; they were used but seldom. They
e ,changed passes with the Brighton and South-Eastern Com-
panies, and with no other companies. The generalpasses de-
pended on matters of business for the mutual accommoda-
tion of companies ; for instance, their detective officers could
travel down to Edinburgh by means of passes over other
lines, and detectives belonging to other lines could pass over
their line as to lost goods or luggage, and thes also robberies
or frauds might be discovered or detected. The use of passes
had tended to facilitate business oil the railways, and was
much restricted.. On some, occasions free passes were granted
to first-rate reporters on the Preis to attend public meetings
or trials, with a.view of obtaining correct repurts of the pro-
ceedings, and not to depend upon accounts drawn up by so-
licitor's clerks, whose accounts might be incorrect or erro-
neous. Even in this way the interests of the company were
protected from erroneous statements that might bo otherwise
circulated by incompetent parties, as the gentlemen of the
'London Press were unbiassed, and local reports s ere often
partial or too highly coldured.
The Solicitor remarked that he had paid 251. a-year
ticket on the line, and that he derived no advantage wha,e% or
from free passes. for his,
cair
jeafv uellya
Mr. Seijeant GASELEE said he was on the traffic committee,
and
looked could
into. assure
ltwas
themas
athatll matter
eprassfoersawdeirere
to to
very
.t
to pay cab-hire
pass over the line, when it was considered hat he was
was not al-
lowed for his services more than sufficient
to and from the office.
After some observations from Mr. Tit!, Mr. Addison,
and Mr. Marriott, the report was unauous yadopted. A!
.m
dividend at the rate of 51. 12s. 6d. per cent. per annum for
the half-year was declared, atud the directors were authurised
to place two sums of 23,6921. and 20,2491. to capital account
. retiring
in accordance with the recommendation of the report. Mr.
Serjeant as
eeti and Mr. E. J. Hutchins, M.P.'
also the
unanimously re elected,
and Mr. Noyes,
,
G
theile worecl
g
auditor.
Mr. MALINS expressed his approbation of the accurate way
in which the accounts were kept, and of the manner in which
the affairs of the company were now conducted.
Mr. KAY suggested that some means should be adopted to
induce railway companies generally, and the metropolitan
railways in particular, to adopt an uniform system o accounts,
so as to enable shareholders to compare the various items and
arrive at correct conclusions.
Mr. Serjeant GASELEE proposed; "That the qualification of
directors of the company ho, in future, the holding of 2,000 g.
instead of 1,0001. stock in the company."
Mr. SNOW proposed, as an amendment, " That the qual:fi,
cation be 3,0001., which wits-se;onded by Mr. PUNCHER, and
carried unanimously.
It was also agreed that the qualification should be held I°3
months by a candidate be ore his election to a seat at the
board.
On the motion of Mr. Serjeant GASELEE it was agreed that
the proprietors should have power to remove a director by a
majority of two-thirds of those present at a special meeting
convened for the purpose. Clauses would be inserted in th©
bill now before Parliament, embodying the foregoing resolu.
tion.
Mr. WOOD then brought 'forward his motion for removing
tae banking account (Oho company to the Bank of Eng.
laud.
Mr. UzistLa satisfactorily explained the practical difficulties
and inconveniences that would 'arise to the company from
514,1 a course, and.clearltaowed the