The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-24 00:00:00

DISSENTERS.

The Earl of SUFFOLK presented a petition from the
.
.thuetiters of a parish in Wilts, praying for a redress of the
grievances tinder which they laboured.
The Earl of HARROWBY presented a petition from
the archdeacon and clergy of Stafford, against the admis-
sion of Dissenters to the Universities, and for the protec-
%ion of the Established Church. At the request of the
ikskle earl the petition was read at length.
The Earl of HARROWBY then rose to move that the
petition do lie on the table, and took that opportunity of
adverting to a bill which had been brought in by the noble
and learned lord on the woolsack, respecting the Church.
He wished to know when the noble and learned lord intended
to bring that bill again under consideration, as it was im-
portant that the house should know of it.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the measures were
of great importance. The bill had been read a first
time and had been ordered to be printed, and he should
wish it to be in the hands of every member of the house,
so that its details might be thoroughly understood before it
came on again. There were two questions in particular
which it would be desirable should be perfectly
understood—he alluded to plurality and non-residence ;
and with a view to accommodate the house, he
should propose that the second reading should take place
either on this day fortnight, or on Monday fortnight.
Until then it was usual to defer entering into a dis-
cussion of the details.

adoption. Ile would remark on this, that the public ex-. 1
petted, with reference to matters of so much importance;
that they should be well matured before they were brought
forward, and he believed it was usual With governments to
endeavour to make their measures as complete as possible
before they introduced them. In making these remarks,
he did
.not intend anything offensive to, the noble and
learned lord; that he felt he had paiise. a complaint, he
did not conceal (Heart heir); and he did complain ; but
it was not in a Apilit of anger, or with any feeling which
mishearnt his situation. With reference to the bill itself,
he *mad only observe, that it was the anxious wish of all
the reverend bench to remove the abuses which had crept
into the church, and he would do his best to bring the bill
before the house into such a form as would render' it
effective and beneficial.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said it was a source of
the highest satisfaction to him to find that the most reve-
rend prelate, disregarding any little punctilios which might
have arisen in his mind from a supposed, for it was only a
supposed, neglect on his (the Lord Chancellor's) part to-
wards their spiritual lordships, to find that the most reve-
rend prelate, not Withstanding all this, expressed his readi-
ness to give these bills a candid consideration, and to en-
deavour to make them the means of satisfying the people
with the established church, and of merely strengthening
that church. This augured most favourably for the suc-
cessful progress of the measures. With regard, however,
to the cause of complaint alleged by the most reverend
prelate and noble earl, he thought that both those noble-
men laboured under no slight mistake. It appeared to be
thought by those lords that it was going out of the way,
that it was deviating from the ordinary rule and practice
of the house,' that it was a proceeding wholly outraging
all the forms observed in their branch of the legislature,
for any peer to bring forward any bill, without giving
previous notice. (No, no.) Certainly that was the im-
pression conveyed by the objections which had been raised ;
and he begged leave to sav that his experience taught him
that the opinion thus held by the most reverend prelate
and noble lord was an erroneous one. His experience in
their lordships' house—he was going to say unfortuately
for himself, but, on consideration, he did not feel that
he had much to regret on this head—his experience in
their lordships' house was more limited than that of almost
any of its members; but he had been among them quite
long enough to know that the practice was by no meo'
for a peer to give any notice previous to bringing in a bill.
In bringing forward the first bill which he had presented
to their lordships, which bill was now a law of the land, he
had, in his ignorance, attempted to import with him the
form and practice pursued in the other house ; he had
given notice that on such a day he meant to move for leave
to bring in such a bill. Straightways, however, up started
some 15 noble persons ; some of them, no doubt, solely ac-
tuated by the good-natured idea of setting him right as to
the forms of their house; but others delighting in the idea
that they had caught tripping in some of the little forms
of their house one who had been set to preside over them
without their high and mighty will and pleasure having
been at all consulted on the matter ; however, up came
these noble persons crying nut that " no such thing had
ever been heard of in their house as a peer giving any
previous notice of his intention to bring in a bill ; that such
might be the practice in the house whence he had come,
but in their house never." Yet now some of their lord-
ships objected against him, with equal vehemence, that he
had brought in a bill without giving previous notice.
(No, no.) Well, if that were not the objection, he was
at a loss to understand what was. But it was said that he
had taken the liberty, instead of giving notice, of throwing
his bills on the table of the house ; and that he had taken
occasion to make a speech about them before the proper
time. It was true that, in introducing his bills to the
house, he had, in some ten or twenty lines, explained 'to
the house the objects of those bills ; and in so doing,
it appeared to him that he had done right. (Hear.) If he
had not done so, he should have heard something about—
perhaps not from the rev. bench, from other parties who
would have remonstrated—" What ! bring in two bills like
these—one to do away with pluralities, the other with non-
residence—trundle such bills as these into the house, all
of a sudden—have them printed, and before the public,
without an opportunity having been given to any noble
peer of expressing his opinions on them ! Here's a to do !
here's a shame !" It was asserted, too, that he had brought
his bills into the house at a time when no prelates were
present. He denied the truth of the assertion—two or
three prelates were present at the time. (Hear, hear, and
a cry of " No, no," from the Duke of Cumberland.) The
illustrious duke cried no, no, but. he said yes, yes, and yes,
again ; and he said yes, because he knew what he had
stated to be the fact, being present upon the occasion.
The illustrious duke said no, but the illustrious duke was
absent at the time. (Hear, hear. ) There had been an
archbishop and a bishop present, and for the information
of the illustrious duke, he would name them. The one
was the Archbishop of Armagh—
The Duke of CUMBERLAND—That archbishop was
not in town at the time. (A laugh. )
The LORD CHANCELLOR explained : he had made
a mistake in his hurry, and the illustrious duke was wel-
come to all the benefit of it ; the archbishop present was
the Archbishop of Cashel ; the bishop present was the Bi-
shop of Derry.
The Earl of WICKLOW made some indistinct and
abrupt remarks on this sentence of the noble and learned
lord's speech.
The LORD CHANCELLOR continued—The noble
earl appeared to think that the presence of these prelates
had not materially altered the question; but in his (the
Lord Chancellor's) opinion, the Irish Bishops were quite
as concerned, and quite as zealous, in supporting the inte-
rests of the established church as the English Prelates,and
for obvious reasons. The illustrious duke, who had not
been present, cried out that no bishops were present. The
noble earl, in admitting the presence of two prelates,
seemed to think their presence made little difference, but
his (the Lord Chancellor's) point was not weakened by
either the assertion or the opinion. Had no lay lords
either been present on the occasion ? Yes, surely, several ;
he could net name them ; the forms of the house forbad,
but he would repeat that lay as well as spiritual lords had
been present, and of these more were against than for him.
Among them was a noble marquis connected with both
this part of the empire and with Scotland, who not only
was present, but had delivered his sentiments on the occa-
sion. There was, too, a noble baron, formerly a Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer (Bexley) than whom the establish-
ment did not possess a warmer friend. Another noble
lord, too, he could name, but might not—one who was
no enthusiastic admirer f the present administration, but
who, with all his zeal and strength, supported the system
of things as they are in the establishment, with whom on
that question he had often stiffly waged battle. It ap-
peared to him (the Lord Chancellor) that a more harm-
less course of proceeding could not have been adopted,
than that of introducing a bill, stating its leading fea-
tures, and another postponing it for a certain period, in
order to give every peer time for considering it fully. If
peers were not to give notice of an intended bill, and if,
when the bill be introduced, the framer is not allowed to
mention its purport, the consequences might be most
ab-
surd and mischievous. A noble peer might take it into
his head to introduce a bill of the most ridiculous or mis-
chievous kind; and he might, according to this system of
silent introduction, get it brought in and printed, to the
astonishment, and perhaps indignation of the public, with-
out noble lords having had an opportunity of rejecting it
in limine, or at least of expressing their opinions on it.
In the case of the Law Reform Bill, introduced by him, and
passed last session, he had on introducing it, explained its
leading features at much greater length than in the case of
the present bills, and he had adopted, and been permitted
a similar course in reference to the Old Bailey Jurisdiction
Bill, which, as he hoped, was on the point of becoming the
law of the land. The noble and learned lord then went on
to vindicate the bills in question. In expressing his dis-
sent from the opinions of the mistaken portion of the dis-
senters who desired to have the church separated from the
state on several occasions, and particularly on that of pre-
senting a petition from 50,000 to this effect, he had ex-
pressed himself decidedly and warmly in favour of bringing
about such reforms in the church as would obviate the rea-
sonable objections which were entertained against the esta-
blishment, and thereby insure its greater security. He
wished to redeem the pledge he had then given to do his
best to effect such an object, and he deemed the measures
now in question to be singularly adapted for that purpose ;
he had exerted himself to get them into the house before
the recess, and by great exertion he had succeeded in pre-
paring them in time. The most rev. prelate had said that the
bench of bishops ought to have been consulted before the
bill was introduced into the house. The most rev. pre-
late, however, would please to recollect two things ; in
the first place, on a former occasion, that of the English
Tithe Bill, much confidential communication had taken place
between Government and the bishops, and much discussion
among the prelates themselves ; yet after delays of weeks
and weeks, protracted indeed to months, the result was,
that Government was left precisely to a hair's breadth in
the same position, and as far on their way as when the
communications were first entered into. (Hear, hear.)
In the second place, when he remembered what the mea-
sure was which the most reverend prelate as the delegate
of the Episcopal bench had brought forward some time ago
on the subject of pluralities, when he considered how very
far that measure was from being what he held to be effec-
tive, he had feared that it would be in vain, and past all
hope and expectation, to obtain the approbation of the
bench to his measures, which went so much further than
theirs. The most rev. prelate's bill no doubt had passed
their lordships' house with the sanction of Government,
and he much regretted that it had not also passed the other
house ; and here as to a question put by a noble lord, why
the members of Government in that house had not exerted
themselves as strenuously in its favour as their colleagies
in the upper house, he would reply, because it was found
that no power on earth could have induced the lower
house to pass it; that it would have been as easy to get
them to throw out the Reform Bill, as to agree to that
measure ; and he would not so far flatter the most rev.
prelate as to tell him that he looked upon the measure of
so much value that Ministers ought to have staked their
continuance in office on its passing the lower house. He
• wished the bill had so passed ; but the members of the
• Commons' House differed so widely from him in opinion
on the subject, that they looked upon the bill as infinitely
• worse than no bill at all. With reference, however, to the

The Earl of MALMESBURY said, when the bill was
brought in by the noble and learned lord it was at a very
late hour (Hear, hear), and was accompanied by a pre-
fatory speech. As one strongly attached to the established
church, he felt surprised that not one of the rightreverend
prelates had said any thing upon that occasion, and on in-
quiry he found that at that late hour not one of them was
present. That fact should be known to the public, other-
wise the public might think that those right rev. prelates
were not so alive to their duties as they usually were. He
(Lord Malmesbury) should have wished, if he had had the
opportunity, to have made some observations, particularly
with regard to non-residence, for he believed a very great
improvement had of late years been effected in that respect
by the right reverend prelates. Of his own knowledge
he could say that was the case in the part of the country
in which he resided. He thought that in common cour-
tesy the noble and learned lord ought to have given the
right reverend bench notice of his intention to bring the
bill forward. The noble and learned lord would have felt
great surprise if he (Lord Malmesbury) had during his
absence brought forward any measure respecting the court
over which that noble and learned lord presided, and
therefore some notice ought to havebeen given to the right
rev. prelates.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said he was very
happy to have the present opportunity of making a few ob-
servations, and he was obliged to the noble earl op-
posite for having very properly and reasonably called
upon him and his brethren for an explanation of their
absence upon an occasion on which there could
be no doubt whatever they ought to have been
present. He had been placed in a situation of very great
inconvenience, and one which had imposed upon him the
necessity of touching on the subject before the regular time..
The clergy had been anxious that the government should
introduce some measure for the regulation of the church ;
it had been a long time promised, and had been ex-
pected with the greateit anxiety, because it was
supposed it would come from the government with the
approbation of the prelates of the church. That had
been the expectation of the clergy ; and, therefore,
when they saw a measure of this kind introduced,
and sent forth to the public without a single observation
from any of the bishops, there were but two conclu-
sions at which they could arrive ; the one was
that a previous arrangement had been formed between
the government and the bishops that the bill should be in-
troduced in silence ; and that it being a bill that was to
give satisfaction to both parties, nothing should be said at
the first introduction (Hear, hear); and the other was that
the bishops had been grossly negligent of their duty. Now
it appeared to him that it could not have been supposed
that no discussion had taken place between the bishops
and his Majesty's government on a subject so complicated
in its nature, and so deeply affecting the interests of the
established church. Nor could it have been imagined
that no communication had been made to the bishops re-
specting the day on which such a measure was to be intro-
duced. ( Hear.) He apprehended that neither of these
cases could have occurred to people. He knew of no
better way of informing their lordships of the fact than by
entering into a short narrative. Their lordships would
recollect that, about ten years ago, he introduced a bill re-
lating to pluralities, which made no progress in the other
house. It at first received the support of his Majesty's
government, but they eventually did not think proper to
press it in either house. He did not say that this deter-
mination was wrong, but he would say that it considerably
disappointed him. The next year, which was last session,
he saw so many bills introduced of very great importance,
that he was quiescent, in despair of succeeding in
calling attention to the subject. He did nothing—he
could do nothing. At the beginning of this session they
were told by the noble earl at the head of his Majesty's go-
vernment that measures were in preparation for the regulation
of these matters, and that, with the assistance of the bench of
bishops, they would be carried into effect. The announce-
ment was received with the greatest satisfaction by the
bishops. Some time having elapsed, he asked what was
intended, when the noble earl at the head of his Majesty's
government said that such bills were in preparation—that
they were in the hands of the noble and learned lord on the
woolsack, and that copies would be sent to him whenever
they were in a sufficient state of forwardness. He rested on
that expectation. (Hear.) It appeared to him that nothing
then remained for him to do. On Wednesday last he had
the honour of receiving from the noble and learned lord the
heads and abstract of a bill for the regulation of these mat-
ters of pluralities and non-residence, and at the same time
he was favoured with a most courteous letter from the noble
and learned lord ; but there was conveyed to him no inti-
mation whatever either that it was intended to lay the bill
on the table of the house, or when it was proposed to do so.
When that communication was made to him he supposed
that its object was to obtain his opinion, if not of the gene-
ral principles, at least of the details of the bill. On the
evening when the bill was introduced to their lordships he
was attending a society for the propagation of the Gospel,
and he subsequently was informed by the ordinary chan-
nels that the bill had been brought in, and that an intro-
ductory speech had been delivered on the occasion by the
noble and learned lord. From that speech it did appear as
if the system of pluralities had been introduced by the Pro-
testant church—that, indeed, it was unknown to Popery.
Had he been in his place when this was represented, he
should have shown that the fact was not so ; in proof of
which he might have referred to the commonest books on
such subjects. Indeed he thought that every one at all ac-
quainted with ecclesiastical matters knew to the contrary.
He regretted that no communication was made to the bi-
shops before the bringing in of the bill. (Hear, hear.)
There were certainly parts of it which he should have
most earnestly requested the noble and learned lord to
have omitted before he presented it to this house. He
regretted the want of the communication on account also
of the effect it must have on the public mind. At a time
when they saw measures taken for the subversion of the
Established Church, when every nerve was strained. to
make that church appear odious, and to raise a hostile
feeling against it (Loud cries of " Hear, hear"), what
must the public imagine to see a measure of such vast im-
portance, one whieh involved so much consideration, and
had to deal with such serious difficulties, introduced with-
out any discussion of its merits on the part of those best
acquainted with the subject ? Must they not infer, either
that his Majesty's government was carless of the opinions
of the bishopeand the clergy, or that they thought it use-
less to refer to •them for advice? (Hear, hear.) It ap-
peared from the abstract that there were some parts of the
measure that were not to be pressed on their lordships for

bill now before the house, he enthrtaified the Most ! with advantage on the subject. They ought, therefore, to
guine expectation that it would pass their lordships' house pause until they got the requisite information, and then
in such a shape and form as would give it a title to the proceed with the measure, adopting such of its provisions
support of the COmmons. (Hear, hear, hear.) He as should appear to their lordships most wholesome. He
had never intended to throw the slightest slur on the (the Earl of Harrowby) wished to warn them of the
Protestant Church, more especially as in comparison with danger of embarking on the wide ocean of legislation on
the Roman Catholic Church. He would observe, however, the subject, without that information which could alone
that pluralities were, guideat any rate, forbidden by the Canon prove a chart to their course. By waiting until next
laws in the Catholic
Church, while they were not so in the session they would have the requisite information, which
Protestant Church ; the dispensations which enabled some would prove to them a polar star, of which he trusted they
prelates and others in the Catholic Church to hold plu- I never would lose sight
ralities were no answer to the general illegality of the Lord WHARNCLIFFE understood the noble and
practice; so far from it, the exceptions proved the rule, learned lord to say, that in bringing forward his bills he
Pluralities, such as they exist in our establishment, were, ' had consulted his colleagues in the Cabinet. It was a mat-
however, unknown in the Catholic Church. He would ter of great importance to him how the fact stood; and he
not detain the house longer on the subject, but would con- (Lord Wharncliffe) wished to ask the noble and learned
elude with hoping that the measures would be allowed to lord whether the bills had been brought forward on his
pass, as he believed they would have the happy effect of own authority only, or whether they were brought forward
removing those abuses which had produced the greatest with the concurrence of his colleagues?
and most dangerous clamours against the church. The LORD CHANCELLOR was surprised at the
The Earl of MALMESBURY said, after a few words question of the noble lord. He surely must be aware that
in explanation, what he had intended to convey was, that in both houses a minister had a right to bring in any mea-
it had been usual for peers who intended introducing any sure he chose, in his capacity of member of parliament,
measure, to send an intimation of his intention to the with or without the concurrence of his colleagues. He,
parties in particular who might be interested in or affected therefore, thought it unfair to be stopped in the threshold,
by the contemplated measure. He repeated, that it was by the noble lord asking him (the Lord Chancellor) the
unusual on introducing a measure to make any comments question, " Have you brought in your bill on your own
on it. authority, or with the knowledge and consent of your col-
The Duke of CUMBERLAND had not been aware of leagues." He would say nothing of the irregularity of
the presence of any bishops on the occasion alluded to. this question ; but he must tell the noble lord, that he (the
No doubt, in the early part of that evening a very large Lord Chancellor) must pause before he answered it. The
convocation of bishops had met in expectation of a discus- bill which he had brought in must rest on its own
sion on the Scotch Catholic Bill ; but as that did not come merits. He would, however, say this much, that
on, the bishops had left the house. He, too, had beets he was not aware of any objection existing against the
present up till eight o'clock; but on inquiring of the noble measure in any quarter. Whether or not his an-
and learned lord, he had been informed that no further swer would prove satisfactory to the noble lord, he
business would come on that evening; he had gone away (the Lord Chancellor) did not know. It was true, as had
at that hour, and had never been more surprised, than been stated by the noble lord, that the bill had been
when, next morning, he read in the newspapers an brought forward before the Report of the Ecclesiastical
account of the introduction of the measures by the noble Commissioners was laid on their lordships' table ; and he
and learned lord. considered that part of it which related to the value of liv-
The Duke of WELLINGTON had been placed in much ings must in consequence be necessarily less perfect than
the same predicament with his illustrious friend on the it would otherwise have been, and than he could have
evening in question ; for, in consequence of a similar inti-' wished. On the other hand, if the Report of the Corn-
mation made to him by the noble and learned lord that no missioners should be received before the measure made
further business would be brought on, he also left the house any very considerable progress, and it were otherwise re-
at eight o'clock. There could be no doubt that the custom ceived favourably, they could then avail themselves of the
of the house was, that previous to the introduction of any valuation of the commissioners ; but he thought they might
measure, particularly of such importance as the present, take the present valuation until a better was obtained.
the peer introducing it should send round an intimation of He was quite willing to delay that part of the measure to
his intention ; and if any noble lords more than others were which the noble lord particularly alluded until after the
bound to adhere r gidly to the custom of the house, they appearance of the Report of the Commissioners ; but un-
were those who belonged to the administration, who should less he (the noble lord) had some other objections to the
particularly take care to guard against anything like a sur- bill, he (the Lord Chancellor) did not see that it ought
prse, much more not to set the example of anything of the to be stopped. If the parochial clergy, possessing small
sort. As to the neglect exhibited towards the right rev, livings, should feel themselves affected by it, and if they
bench, the noble and learned lord had sufficiently explained should petition against it, it would perhaps, in that case,
how that happened, for he had given as his reason that he be the most advisable course to defer it. But he hoped
doubted whether the prelates would like his bill, and so the noble lord would not press the postponement of the
thought it best not to try the experiment. There was an- question, as he understood him to be friendly to the princi-
other observation he had to make. The other evening it ple of the bill. To adopt his suggestion would be to
had been admitted that one of the measures in question throw out the bill this session altogether.
went to infringe on the royal prerogative, vet the royal as- Lord WHARNCLIFFE expressed himself satisfied
sent to such infringement had not, as usual in such cases, with the answer of the noble and learned lord.
been read. The noble and learned lord had said that he Lord WYNFORD begged to ask the noble and learned
had the concurrence of his colleagues. lord when the bill would be printed ?
Lord LANSDOWNE—No, he did not. The LORD CHANCELLOR believed it would be
The LORD CHANCELLOR—I only said that I had ready to-morrow.
submitted the measure to my colleagues. The Duke of HAMILTON presented a petition from
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that whatever term certain parochial schoolmasters in Scotland, complaining
the noble and learned lord might have made use of, the of distress and praying for relief. Also from the Glasgow
impression conveyed to the house was, that his measure hand-loom weavers, complaining of distress, and praying
had the concurrence of his colleagues. The noble and for relief. The noble duke likewise presented several
learned lord, when be brought down such a measure, petitions from Scotland against church patronage ; and
ought to have put the house in possession of the fact—if it one from the Island of Lewes for the better observance of
were fact—that his Majesty had consented to have this in- the Sabbath.
fringement on his prerogative brought under the consi- Lord WHARNCLIFFE postponed his motion respect-
deration of the house. ieg Secondary Punishments until the 2d of June.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought the noble duke The order of the day for proceeding with the Borough
had taken one of the most extraordinary courses he ever of Warwick Disfranchisement Bill having been then read,
recollected to have been adopted by a member of that their lordships proceeded to call witnesses.
house. He had charged him (the Lord Chancellor) with After Miss Ann Davies was in part examined, a long
committing a breach of his duty not only to the house, but discussion took place between the counsel, in which several
to himself, in the steps he had taken. He (the Lord noble lords took a part, on the question as to whether the
Chancellor) did not admit that the bill in question at all books of a publican could, under particular circumstances,
trenched on the Royal Prerogative; but even supposing be produced as evidence of treating, until the agency of
that it did, was the noble duke prepared to say that the those by whom the articles charged in the books were
time for producing the Royal Assent was at the period ordered should be produced. Counsel were allowed till
when the bill was introduced to the house? Was it not Monday, to consider how they should shape their ques-
rather more customary to produce the Royal Assent at the tions, in order to overcome the objection.
second reading of a bill ? (Hear, hear.) He should be William Lapworth, not having appeared to their lord-
very much surprised if the noble duke could mention any ships' summons, was then ordered to be taken into custody
case in which the Royal Assent had been given to a bill of the sergeant-at-arms.
before the bill was brought in. The noble duke had Their lordships adjourned at a quarter past nine o'clock.
stated most incorrectly that he (the Lord Chancellor) had
described the bill as having met with the concurrence of
his colleagues : all he had said was, that he had submitted
it to them. As to the Royal Assent, the time for giving
it had not yet arrived ; and it might happen that it never
would arrive : for if he found that their lordships were
determined not to afford the bill that fair, candid, and
dispassionate consideration which he was most glad to find
the bench of bishops were prepared to accord, he would
not think of subjecting their lordships to the disfavour__
he would not use a stronger term—which such a refusal
would draw upon them on the part of their countrymen.
He trusted, however, that their lordships would think bet-
ter of it, and allow so beneficial a bill to pass, and pass
unm utilated.

The Earl of WICKLOW explained. With reference to
the manner in which the bill had been brought forward, he
could only express his surprise that before their lordships
were in possession of the bill, an abstract of it should have
been sent by the noble and learned lord to the Times
newspaper. (No, no.) Well, if the noble and learned
lord had not sent it, he was at a loss to understand how
the abstract, which had appeared in that paper, had got
into the hands of its editor. The whole proceeding ap-
peared to him very irregular and disrespectful.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that all he had in-
timated on the evening alluded to, when questioned on the
subject by a dozen Peers or more, was that the business of
the evening, namely, the Scotch Catholic Bill, would not
come on, and it did not. He had said nothing further. As
to the allegation against him about gettinghis bills surrep-
titiously and irregularly forward, he denied the charge ;
on this point, however, he would conclude by assuring the
noble earl who had just spoken, and he did so with the ut-
most sincerity, and the noble earl might take it with him,
that he would never humble himself to go one inch or
hair's breadth out of his way to save any bill or speech of
his from any reply which could be made thereto, by either
the noble earl, or the illustrious duke, or the noble duke
who headed the Opposition.
The Earl of WINCHIL SEA complained of the conduct
of the noble and learned lord in having brought in his bills
without having given their lordships previous notice. It
was especially uncourteous towards the heads of the church,
not to have them at least previously acquainted with his in-
tention to bring in these bills. He (the Earl of Winchil-
sea) did not know what were the details of the measure of
the noble and learned lord, but if the object was to enforce
residence where there were residences, it would have his
cordial support. But then he (the Earl of Winchilsea)
wished to remind their lordships that there were in Eng-
land from 1,200 to 1,400 parishes in which there were no
residences. He wished to ask the noble and learned lord
whether or not his measure applied to these?
The LORD CHANCELLOR begged to say, in answer
to the question put by the noble earl, that neither of his
bills contemplated anything of the kind. With respect to
what had been said by a noble earl (Wicklow) regarding
an abstract of the bill having got into one of the news-
papers, he (the Lord Chancellor) thought their lordships
must see that it was impossible that either he or any one
connected with the drawing up of that. bill could have had
anything to do with the transmission of the abstract to the
office of the paper in question. He (the Lord Chancellor)
had never seen the abstract; but he had been informed by
those who had seen it, that nothing could have been more
unlike the bill itself. It stated that a clergyman, holding
a living worth 2,5001. a-year, could accept of another
living, if it did not exceed 100/. He could not tell
whether it was so represented in the abstract of the bill,
not having himself seen it ; but such a statement was alto-
gether groundless, and the abstract, in other respects, was
not in the least like the original.
The Earl of HARROWBY then rose, but spoke in so
low and indistinct a tone that he was but very imper-
fectly heard in the gallery. We understood him to com-
mence by saying that if the noble and learned lord was sa-
tisfied with the course he had pursued in the bringing in
of his bills, he (the Earl of Harrowby) had no wish to de-
prive him of that satisfaction. The discussion which had
that evening arisen on the subject had elicited a declara-
tion of opinion from the most rev. prelate the Archbishop
of Canterbury regarding the measure of the noble and
learned lord, in which their lordships would not be sur-
prised if he (the Earl of Harrowby) expressed his cordial
concurrence. If the principle of the bill was simply that
residence should be enforced, lie was sure that there was
not a noble lord in that house who would oppose the mea-
sure. The noble and learned lord had stated that it was
not his intention to proceed with the second reading
sooner than that day fortnight. Now he (the Earl of
Harrowby) need not inform their lordships that neither a
fortnight nor a month, no, nor even any part of the pre-
sent session, could place them in that position, with re-
gard to a knowledge of the subject, which would enable
them to come to a proper decision on the question. Their
lordships were aware that the ecclesiastical commissioners
were still sitting—they had not yet been able, but lie
hoped they soon would be, to lay on their lordship? table
the state of the revenues of the church—not a general
statement, but a detail of every living, and the situation
and circumstances of every church in the country. There
was one fact which deserved to be stated—namely, that
there were in England seven hundred parishes which
did not respectively contain above fifty inhabitants, and
one thousand which did not contain a population of,
100. Now, if these fractions of parishes were to be called oil
by the bill of the noble and learned lord to maintain each a
clergyman, the measure would be a monstrous one. He ( the
Earl of H.) would not have any objection to appropriate
part of the.property of the Church which might be at pre-
sent used for merely ornamental purposes to purposes of a use-
ful kind. He was sure their lordships would concur with him
in the opinion that they did not at present possess that in-
formation which was necessary to enable them to legislate

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 23.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at half-past five o'clock.
A Message from the Lords was announced, stating that
their lordships had agreed to the bill relating to the for-
feiture and escheat of real and personal property, and se-
veral private bills.
Mr. BARNARD presented a petition from the church-
wardens of Deptford, against the Bermondsey Water Works
Bill_
On the motion of Colonel PERCEVAL, a new writ
was ordered for the county of Fermanagh, in the room of
I General Archdale, who has accepted the chiltern hundreds.

Mr. ABERCROMBIE obtained an extension of time
for the committee upon the Edinburgh Police Bill to
make their report.
Upon the order of the day being read for the house to
resolve itself into a committee on the Poor Laws' 'Amend-
ment Bill,

Mr. SHAW wished to ask the noble lord opposite a
question respecting Irish tithes. He wished to know whether
any time was fixed for the discussion to come on, or whether it
was indefinitely postponed? He also was anxious to know
whether the Irish Coercion Bill, which would expire on
the Ist of August, was to be renewed?
. . .

Lord ALTROBP said that he thought it would be
much more convenient to go through with the Poor
Laws' Amendment Bill, before any other business.
With respect to the other question, he did not think it at
all necessary at the present moment to state what decision
the government had come to. ( Hear, hear. )
Mr. LITTLETON, in answer to a question from Mr.
Finn, said that the returns of the amount of tithe composi-
tion had been made, except from two dioceses which had
refused to make the return. To the registrar of one
of these dioceses, Ossory, he (Mr. Littleton) had
given notice that, unless the order of that house was
complied with, he should move that the registrar be called
to the bar of the house. (Hear, hear.) There was some
excuse for the registrars refusing to comply with the order
to return the number of Protestants in each diocese, as
there was great expense and infinite trouble in com-
plying with the order. When the returns were made, he
would be ready to lay them on the table of the house.
Mr. SHAW stated that, as he understood from the right
hon. gentleman opposite, the registrar bad informed the
Irish government it was impossible for him to make the
return, it might be sufficient to say that he should make
it so far as he found it possible so to do, and then to satisfy
the house why it was he could not complete it.
Mr. LITTLETON said the registrar had stated that it
was impossible for him to make the return on account of
the expense going beyond what he conceived it ought.
That was no sufficient reason for his refusing to make the
return ; it was in his power to do it, and the answer lie
received was, that whatever extra expense might attend it,
would be considered by the Irish government.
Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR moved for a return of
the names of the persons appointed to act as Surveyors
under the Irish Grand Jury Act of last session.
Mr. BAINES inquired whether, previous to entering
on the question of tithes, the report of the commission on
church affairs would be laid before the house ?

Dr. LUSHINGTON said, that the report was
not ready, but the commissioners intended to present a
short report. to his Majesty of the result of their inquiries,
and as early as possible. With respect to the returns of
the church revenues, they had been laid before the com-
mittee ; but to present them without explanation would be
to present a mass of matter scarcely comprehensible to any
hon. member.
Mr. R. WASON presented a petition from Ipswich
against the Poor Laws' Amendment Bill.
Sir J. SCARLETT presented a petition from Norfolk
to the same effect.
Mr. LANGSTON presented a similar petition from
Oxford.
Col. LYG ON presented a similar petition from Moseley.
Mr. C. WOOD presented a petition from Halifax to the
same effect, and another from St. Saviour's, Southwark.
Sir G. SKIPWITH presented a petition to the same
effect from Loughborough.
POOR LAWS' AMENDMENT BILL.

The house then went into Committee on the Poor Laws'
Amendment Bill.
On clause 2 being read,
Colonel TORRENS thought this the best opportunity
for proposing the amendment of which he had given no-
tice, for limiting the power of the commissioners to five
years.
Lord ALT HORP suggested to the hon. and gallant
member to propose his amendment as a separate clause
at a more convenient time.
Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY said he had several amend-
ments to move, and he wished to remind the house that a
commission having been decided on, it would be his duty
to make that commission as palatable as possible.
(Bear.) He thought the change about to be made
in the machinery of the poor laws was too ex-
tensive and sweeping, and instanced the ease of
the emancipation of the slaves in the West Indies, when
it had been said that the proposed measure would not be
available unless the authorities of the different colonies.
were in favour of it. Were not the parochial authorities
throughout the country, from one end to another, against
the present measure ? (Cries . of " No, no, no.")
Had a single parish petitioned for the passing of the
bill in its present form ? (Hear.) No country would
sanction so monstrous an anomaly as that contemplated by
the establishment of the central commission. The school-
master had been abroad of late, and such a measure
would certainly not now be sanctioned. • A clamour had
lately been raised against the " great unpaid," as
they were called, and with whose authority and
influence it was intended to interfere. Ori what ground

were they about to declare their incompetence to discharge
their duty and degrade them ? (Cries of " No, no.")
Why was it that they were now declared unfit for the du-
ties they had hitherto performed ? What was the reason
tor, thus declaring their incompetence, and reducing s_ountry
gentlemen to cyphers? This was not the time to make
these sweeping alterations, when discontent was lowering
on the brow of the middle classes, and rankling in the heart.
Was this the time to 'disorganise society, and loose the
bonds by which the several classes were bound together?
What authority did the bill propose to substitute for that
ancient and respectable one which it was about to super-
sede ? The house well knew how contemptible a sleek
cockney who happened to wander beyond the boundaries of
Cockaigne appeared in the eyes of a farmer. Now suppose
one of these cockneys, who is an attorney, also goes as an
assistant commissioner to the parish vestry, to dictate to
the farmer; in what temper would those orders be received,
compared with the respect with which the suggestions of
the landlord would be attended to? The power which
this bill proposed to vest in the commissioners was so
great, that few men would undertake the performance of ,
parochial duties. No one liked to submit implicitly to the
orders of others, unless he was paid for such submission.
The person who would undertake parochial duties, if the
present bill passed, was more bound by authority than a
servant—ran more risk than a soldier. Ile would implore
the house not to precipitate this measure. How could they
expect that any man would submit to the subserviency and
responsibility imposed by it? The indictments alone to
which a man was rendered liable would be sufficient to ruin
a tradesman, and disobedience under it, even though the
person disobeyed unwittingly, subjected him to imprisonment
Lord ALTHO RP—No, no.
Sir S. WHALLEY—The noble lord said "No" and yet
'twas in the bill. The person disobeying was liable to be
committed by two magistrates. It would be utterly im-
possible to induce men to carry on this bill. Could there
be any other result of this measure than that all the present
parochial authorities would refuse to act again, if, indeed,
they were continued till . their present period expired ?
What a state of things it would be to have 16,000 parishes
thrown into disorder for want of persons to carry the ad-
ministration of the poor laws into effect ! The rate
would increase—the labourers would be thrown into a state
of revolt—a servile war would ensue, and the now almost
extinguished fires would blaze out again. ( Oh, oh. ), Any
man with a particle of reason—any man with a grain of
sense (A laugh), he repeated it, any man with a grain of
sense must perceive that those who hitherto administered
the poor laws would not again consent to act with powers
so diminished as theirs would be by this bill. If they
would, he must confess he knew nothing of human nature.
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The hon. gentleman pro-
ceeded to say, that if the power of the commission was
limited, as it was shown in the report to be the case in
France, he would have no objection to its appointment.
(Hear, hear.) He would therefore move the omis-
sion of all words after the word " that," in the se-
cond clause, and substitute the following as an amend-
ment :—" And be it enacted, that it shall and may be
lawful for the said commissioners, and they are hereby
required, to prepare for the consideration of Parliament a
bill or bills for consolidating all existing statutes relating to
the relief of the poor, comprising such alterations in the
present laws, and such additional laws and regulations as
they may think expedient. And the said commissioners
shall and may, from time to time, prepare such further bill
or bills as they deem necessary. And the said commis-
sioners shall and may frame a form or forms of accounts
to'be observed by all parishes in England and Wales, for
keeping the parochial expenditure under distinct heads ;
and abstracts of the total expenditure under each head shall
once in every year, made up to such period as the com •
missioners may direct, be transmitted by all parishes to the
office of the commissioners in London, in order to their
being there arranged, and laid before Parliament. And
it shall and may be lawful for the said commissioners, and
they are hereby required, to ascertain what parishes it may
be expedient to unite for the purpose of having one or more
workhouses for their common use, and for that and other
purposes to prepare such bill or bills as may be necessary.
And the said commissioners shall have the power of exa-
mining the accounts of all parishes, and of ascertaining
that the returns made to their office are correct ; and of
offering such written suggestions and advice to boards
of guardians and to vestries as they may think
proper. And it shall be lawful for the said com-
missioners to visit all workhouses at such times as they
may think fit ; and they are hereby authorised and re-
quired to enforce the observance in all parishes in England
and Wales of such rules and regulations respecting the re-
lief of the poor, the appointment of overseers, the keeping
of accounts, the management of workhouses, and the edu-
cation and apprenticeship of children, as are or may here-
aler be made by the authority of Parliament. And if any
person shall withhold or suppress any parish books or ac-
counts, or obstruct the said Commissioners in the inspection
thereof, or neglect or refuse to make such annual returns
within six weeks after the time appointed by the said Com-
missioners, or refuse to permit the said Commissioners to
visit any workhouse or workhouses, or any part thereof, or
neglect or refuse to observe and comply with such rules and
regulations as aforesaid, such person shall, upon conviction
before any two Justices, forfeit and pay for the first offence
any sum not exceeding 5/. ; for the second offence any
sum not exceeding 201. nor less than 5/. ; and in the event
of such person being convicted a third time, such third
and every subsequent offence shall be deemed a misdemea-
nor." And to move "the omission of all sections and
words conferring other or greater powers than those above
mentioned." The statutes which, by this amendment, he
proposed to consolidate, were, as he was told, 800, and the
penalties which he suggested were taken out of clauses of
the present bill. This amendment, if acted on, would 'do
more than the absolute power proposed to be vested in the
Commission.

Sir EARDLEY WILI\IOT could not agree with the
hon. gentleman who had just sat down in thinking that
Magistrates would feel themselves degraded by the passing
of this bill. On the contrary, they would feel themselves
released from a troublesome and painful duty.
Mr. 'EWART thought that the hon. memher for Mary-
lebone had thrown away much eloquence in eulogising the
magistracy, inasmuch as it appeared in the evidence before
the commissioners that the magistrates did not exercise the
power vested in them so very wisely. As to the injustice
and degradation which it was said the bill would inflict upon
magistrates, it was answered by the report, which stated
that the diities they had to perform subjected them to dan-
ger and odium. He would have no objection to the pro-
position relating to the curtailment of time, or any quali-
fication of the power of the commissioners which might be
thought advisable in committee.
Lord ALT fIORP said, that if a general act were ap-
plied, as the hon. gentleman suggested, and that such a
one as would not be limited or regulated by circumstances,
it would be found to operate injuriously. The hon. gen-
tleman misunderstood the bill, when he said that the com-
missioners, or the assistant-commissioners had power to
commit persons for disobedience, even though they dis-
obeyed unwittingly. If the hon. gentleman referred to the
86th clause of the bill he would find that it was for wilful
neglect ; and he would also find that the information should
be laid before two justices of the peace. The danger of
riot which the hon. gentleman app ehended, was more
likely if the discretionary power were not granted ; for
such power must exist somewhere. The hon. gentleman
had said that if circular letters suggesting improvements were
sent round to the magistrates, they would adopt the sugges-
tions. The present measure was somewhat similar to this pro-
posal; and he felt perfectly satisfied that when these regulations
were signified to them, the magistrates would co-operate
in endeavouring to give them effect. The hon. gentle-
man had said that the local boards and present guardians
of the poor rates had petitioned against the measure. It
was admitted that they had ; and it was natural that those
possessed of power should be unwilling to have that power
reduced. The hon. gentleman asked whether persons
would be found to act under the bill ; but as he had made
the assertion that they would not, the proof of that asser-
tion fell upon him. It was impossible that he (Lord Al-
t
thorp) could agree in the amendment, which, if agreed to,
would concede the whole principle involved in the bill.
L
n Gt r
byßy
relievingAn Na
s rm 1
oLr Le
them Et h aSn
the amendment. As far as the magistrates were concerned,
labours, was a boon to them, but whether the paralization
of their powers effected by this bill would be beneficial to
Mr. CAYLE Y thought that the ultimate
powers bestowed by this bill upon the commissioners was
not to supersede the powers of the magistrates, but to
establish a uniformity of practice and obedience to the
laws. The hon. member complained that this bill would
establish an autocracy, but it appeared to him that the
vestrymen who objected to it only wished to maintain an
' autocracy of their own. ( Hear, hear.) He agreed that
it was not necessary to continue these powers in perpetuity.
It would be wise to make the experiment at first for five
years, and if it were found necessary to continue the
powers, he was sure it would not be objected to. (Hear,
hear.) He thought, also, that five commissioners would
be better than three, and that the commissioners should
not be wholly metropolitan, but the country should be
e
divided into five districts, and one commissioner chosen
from
wouldßth e SOMERSET
from each, who should be well acquainted with the local
system of his district.
Mr. HAWES was understood to oppose the amendment.
Mr. CLAY said that the matter was too pressing to wait
for the framing of 16,000 little bills, or even, by the union
of parishes, of 3,000 little bills, which would be the effect
of the hon. member's amendment. Did the hon. member
mean to make his regulations imperative laws in every
case ? for, if so, the inconvenience would be ten times
greater than now. (" No," from Sir S. Whalley.) Well,
then, if he intended to give discretionary power, he was,
after all, coming back to the principle of this bill. 114,
should oppose the amendment.
Lord ALTHORP, in a tone of voice utterly inaudible,
proposed an amendment, which was subsequently gathered
to be an alteration in that part of the clause relating to the
summoning power of the commissioners, by striking out the
words " parties and witness," and leaving them powr_i",
call before them " all such persons as they may ron
fit," &c. The noble lord then said, that as the f el" is
to
he would not object
the subject appeared to be general,
the limitation for five years.
noble lord would
Mr. GODSON asked whether the
theth bill,codu