The Sun.
London, England, 1856-02-15 00:00:00

return moved for by the right hon. gentleman would not
establish the case which was supposed to exist.
Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, I should not have presumed for a
moment to have come between the house and the important
business that follows on the paper, but for the observations
of the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for the Home
Department, who has just addressed us. They appear to
me, I confess, so unsatisfactory, and meet so little the
merits of the question, that I could not reconcile myself to
bo quite silent upon the eubject. I have not the honour of
the acquaintance of Baron Pennefather, and the only know-
ledge that I have of the circumstances brought uudcr our
consideration to-night I have gathered in this debate ; but
I have enough to show me that there is connected with the
subject much that ought to interest every member of the
House of Commons. I think that, though the debate has been
brief, its origin, its conduct, and the whole course of the
discussion, have been somewhat remarkable. The hon.
member for Westminster brings forward a motion which,
if it means anything, must mean, at least to unlettered
ears, that in consequence of the age of the Irish judges,
they are unable to fulfil their duties to the public by at-
tending the circuit. The right lion. gentleman the Home
Secretary confesses that, in consequence of a question
in this house last session with reference to that subject, he
felt it his duty—and certainly it was his duty--to couuou-
ni:ate with the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and inquire
whet'ser it was true that the Irish judges did not fulfil
their duty to the country, and did neglect going cir-
cuit in a manner that might have been expected from
men who held high office. By the admission of the right
hon. gentleman himself, he received in answer that the
' judges did attend circuit regularly and sedulously, and then
he says in answer to a motion which is to convey a censure
upon the Irish judges, because they have not attended cir-
cuit, " wo felt it our duty to examine whether this allega-
tion was true, that the Irish judges did not attend circuit
in a manner rat might be expected by the country, and
we found that the allegation was not correct. (Cheers
from the Opposition.) We found that the Irish judges
did attend circuit very regularly, but, by the bye, one of
the Irish judges is blind, and therefore we shall agree to
the motion." (Laughter.) I must say that that is not to
me a satisfactory mode of meeting the question before us.
If the Government, by their researches and their official
communications, have ascertained that the assumption
upon which apparently the hon. member for Westminster
framed his motion, was utterly unfounded and fallacious,
it seems to ma that it would have been more straightfor-
ward and candid if the Government had given that as a
reason for not assenting to a motion, which, in itself, is
not very important, but in its consequences may be inju-
rious to those learned gentlemen, and which, viewed in a
certain aspect, may afford a precedent which many of us,
on both sides of the house, may live to regret. There are
other-parts of the right hon. gentleman's speech which I
cannot help alluding to. He called my right hon. friend
(Mr. Napier) to account upon a ground which appears to
inn to have been entirely erroneous. He accuses him of
laying it down as a principle that the conduct of the hon.
member for Westminster in making the motion, and infe-
rentially of the Government in assenting to the motion,
was unconstitutional ; and the right hon. gentleman says,
" on the contrary, the house is not going to sanction the
principle ; that it is not the duty of the House of Com-
mons to inquire, if necessary, into the conduct of j udges ;
that it is the duty of the House of Commons not merely
to inquire into the conduct of the judges, but also to pro-
ceed to take alterior steps if they think th it there has
been any neglect in the administration of the judges, or if
any of the j udges have not fulfilled their duties to society."
But my right hon. friend never said anything of the kind.
He did not deny the right and the privilege of the House
of Commons to interfere if they suspect any injustice on the
part of the judges ' • but what he did say, an 1 said most fors -
ibly, "it is not politic, nay, I think it is unconstitutional,
for the House of Commons to interfere with the conduct of
the judges of the land, unless they impute corruption or
inelliciency—(hear, hear)—and unless upon those allega-
tions they are prepared to act and to address the Crown to
remove the judges." (Hear, hear.) I have not heard that
any injustice or inefficiency is imputed. (Cheers from the
Treasury.) Whether those cheers from the Treasury bench
are cheers of approval of the principle I have laid down, I
know not, but if cheers of assent, I say that the course of
the Government is a spire lass course. (Opposition cheers.)
I say that, under any circumstances, it was not their duty
to sanction the motion of the hon. member for Westmin-
ster, even if it had inclined to the opinion that the indi-
vidual chiefly interested in our discussion had not attended
circuit on account of the infirmity to which he is unhap-
pily :übjected. The motion of the hon. member for West-
minster does not refer to that infirmity and that impres-
sion, and, consequently, all the three cases which he brought
forward—let the hence remark this single circumstance—
have entirely failed. (Hear, hear.) If he said there are
two judges who don't attend the circuit—and one who is
blind—we could not deny the unfortunate circumstance of
Baron Pennelather being blind ; brit the hon. member fur
Westminster has framed his motion with such singular un-
adroitness that he absolutely does not touch the only fact
which is admitted in this debate, and is susceptible of de-
monstration. (A. laugh.) Every man of sane mind and po-
litical experience must feel convinced that nothing can be
more indiscreet, unwise, impolitic, and ungenerous than
pulling the judges of the laud into the House of Commons,
unless there is one of those irresistible cases which ren-
ders it ti, duty of the house to interfere. (Hear, hear.)
Au interference with the administration of justice by a
branch--and a popular branch—of the Legislature, is the
last and, most solemn cause which aggrieved subjects in this
land can, by petition, ask you to take ; but in the present
case we have not a petition which refers to this learned in-
dividual. We have not a public complaint. (Hear.) We
have not, strange to say, an anonymous slander. Wo
have gentlemen rising in their seats and reading even
articles from newspapers. (Hear.) The only article which
was read from a newspaper—and the right of hon. mem-
bers to read these I was not aware of until to-night—was
absolutely one in favour of Baron Pennefather. What are
we to think of the Government assenting to and sanction-
ieg the incoherent proposition of the hon. member for
Westminster? and what are we to think of the opinion of
the accomplished and amiable viceroy on whose communi-
cation, I think, they so unadvisedly acted? The perplexed
Cabinet consult the Lord-Lieutenant, and he writes to this
effect—" He has the pleasure to inform the right hon. se-
cretary that all the Irish judges are in perfect health, and
are about to attend the circuit. He regrets, as an abstract
principle, judges being blind, but he feels it his duty to
state that, if Baron Pennefather leaves the bench, his loss
will be a serious injury to the Government." (Expressions
of dissent.) No ; the Lord-Lieutenant did not state that.
(Laughter.) Probably he expressed his opinion of the
value, character, services, and career of Baron Pennefather
in much more graceful language than I am able to do it in
the hurry of debate. But, as au Irish judge, the Lord-
Lieutenant said his services were invaluable. (Hear.) Nay
more, as my right hon. and learned friend has just in-
formed me, the Lord-Lieutenant said, in answer to the
confidential inquiry of the Prime Minister, that if Baron
Ponnefather quitted the bench it would be a great loss to
Ireland. (Hear.) And because you waist to give him a hint
to quit the bench, yon sanction this miserable and indecent
motion. (Cheers.) Well, upon the constitutional point, I
imagine that on both sides of the house there cannot be
the slightest difference of opinion. No man can say that
it is advisable that the conduct of the judges of the land
should be brought under discussion in the House of Com-
mons unless the case is Blear and strong, and I think that
sanctioning It motion which the right hon. secretary ad-
mits, if granted, will nob affect the only point which can
at all interest the house in this matter, viz., the peculiar
infirmity of an individual, is one of the most unsatisfac-
tory courses which a Government can take. This
gentleman, whom I don't know, except by fair repute—
which we all acknowledge—is a judge, and he is old.
(Hear.) That is the great fault in, the eyes of the Secre-
tary for Ireland, who cheered the observation.
Mr. HORSM AN—No.
Mr. DISRAELI—WeII, then, he thinks it a merit.
(Hear.) The right hon. member for the University of Dub-
lin very happily alluded to that groat display of eloquence
and intellectual power which commanded, I may say ar-
rested, the attention not only of this country but of Europe
in another place, a few nights ago—made by a man who
also was a judge, and who, fortunately, is older than Baron
Pennefather. Whet a compliment to the distinguishedand
able man who brought forward that question is the cour:e
which has been taken by the Government to-night. In
fact, I can only account for it iu this way—that it is a kind
of a return on the part of the Government for the division
in another place. (A laugh.) What a compliment to that
noble and learned lord, when those who may not agree
with his views all agree upon one point—viz., in admira-
tion of his eloquence and ability. What a compliment to
the House of Commons, that, by a side wind and by a
back door, it should be called upon to come to a resolution
that judges of 82 aro incompetent, and ought to retire from
the bench. Who sups orted the noble and learned lord on
that occasion ? Were they in green youth who came to that
groat oratorical arena to vindicate tie principles of the
constitution, and by their learning to command the respect
and attention of the country ? Why, I dare say, there was
not a man among them who had physical energy enough to
be a candidate for the city of Westminster. (Laughter.)
That debate was conducted and sustained by men, very
few of whom were inferior in age to the Irish judge,
whose conduct is brought before the House of Commons
without a single complaint having been made against him
—(hear, hear)—and what answer would it have been for
the Government on that occasion—not very remarkable
for their prowess in debate —had the leader of the Govern-
ment in another place risen and said, " This important
question has undoubtedly been brought forward by one
who had au illustrious reputation with ,great eloquence and
learning, and has been supported by half-a-dozen of the
oldest and wisest men in the house. But I cannot believe
the peers of England would sanction a resolution which
be
aimputations afterman
a a
on f few
old men have proposed, counselled, and supported." (A
laugh.) I cannot myself believe that the House of Com-
mons, minutes' consideration, will sanction
these
arghaai inpntssel intellectual
nu individual
nwa
rhejudgeovini loda I 1:o foafdemffi
effi-
ciency greati
t o
experience,y in cd, greatperhaps,
Ireland, and whose panegyric has been read to-
night, written by one who is a political opponent, and who
was promoted a Baron of the Exchequer by political influ-
ence, but who, with a frankness which does him honour,
has on this important occasion expressed in admirable lan-
guage the clear convictions of his reason. Well, sir, it is
not age that is the crime—though that is never to be for-
given even by the House of Commons—but the judge is
blind. Why, I thought the peculiar characteristic of jus-
tice(Cries of " Oh !") It
w
certainly asthhaast bietenwrro vt siobteo -bnliignhdt. that it is not. Yet
some of the greatest men have been blind, and under these
circumstances have achieved and accomplished their great-
est deeds. I need not remind the house that the greatest
poem of modern times was written by a blind man. The
city of Constantinople, which even the Czar of Russia
could not take, was taken by the blind and more than oc-
togenarian, Doge Dandola. I believe the truth is that the
doge was nearer 100 than the age of Baron Pennefather
he being 97 years old. Why, the eminent person who so
distinguished himself the other night in the other house of
Parliament, and who is older than Baron Pennefather,
was himself couched for disease of the eyes ; awl yet no
one has ventured to charge him with incompetency.
Sir G. GREY said that it was ten years since that noble
and learned lord was a judge.
Mr. DISRAELI— I am surprised to hear a member of
the Government get up and say that Lord Lyndhurst is not
a judge. Why, isnot the House of Lords the highest judi-
cial tribunal in the kingdom? and does not the noble and
learned lord constantly attend in his place to discharge the
highest functions of the bench? (Hear, hear.) This is a
motion which confessedly cannot injure Baron Penne-
father. On the contrary, it will redound to his credit, but
whether it will redound to the credit of her Majesty's Mi-
nisters is a question which I will leave to the country.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not mean to assert
that because a judge was turned 80 years of age he should
be removed from the bench ; so long as he retained the fa-
culties of mind and body sufficient for the discharge of the
important duties of his office so long was he entitled to re-
tain it. It was stated last session that some of the Irish
Judges, in consequence of their age and infirmities, were
incapable tf going circuit. His right hon. friend, the Home
Secretary, had thought it his duty to inquire into the neat-

Mountgerret evinced a degree of learning, accuracy, and
discrimination rarely equalled in either country. His devo-
tion to the judicial duties is well known. I believe I am
correct in saying that he has only absented himself from
one circuit during his long judicial career. The high opi-
nion which we all entert din of him is, I know, shared by
the bar, many of whom I have heard express it in the most
nuqualified terms. I have never Icearel any complaint or
dissatisfaction expressed, either in public or in private, as
to his performance of his duties. Personally, I have long,
I acknowledge, entertained great affection and regard, as
well as respect, towards him, and should feel extremely
concerned that he should be selected as an object of attack,
to which he is as little open in justice as any member of
our body. I hope that, whatever shape the motion may
assume, it will include us all.—Believe me very sincerely
yours, " MusD. W. GREENE.
"Right Hon. J. Napier."
These were the opinions of eminent judges, to which he
would beg to offer his own ; from having had many oppor-
tunities of judging, ho did not think there was any man
of either country—if he were bound at that moment to se-
lect—whom, in point of excellence or wisdom, ho would
prefer to Baron Pennefather. The hon. baronet said that
some cases on circuit had no opportunity of being impar-
tially tried, as the judge bad not the power of inspecting
and comparing legal documents. But he (Mr Napier) al-
ways thought that that was the duty of the jury. Iu a
remarkable case which had lately been tried before Baron
Pennefather, involving property of a large amount, the
Case came by way of appeal before the Chancellor ; and,
after five days' argument, the Chaucellor, in affirming the
decision, said there was nothing to complain of iu the care
and ability bestowed upon it by the learned j edge of the
court below. This was the man of whom the Lord Chan-
cellor of Ireland had thus spoken in the year 1853, and
yet he was to be told that this learned judge was a fit
person to be dragged before the House of Commons—to
have his infirmities criticised, and to have a stigma oast
upon him. He asked them, if they cast this stigma, whore
they would find a judge of honour and independence who
would take a seat upon the bench ? What was the age of
Baron Wood when he delivered that great judgment embrac-
ing all the law on the subject of evidence in cases of libel? Ho
was about 80 years of age. What encouragement and reward
were they about to give to public men ? He admitted that
thislearned judge might have retired years ago; but as he him-
self said, with a perspicuity and power never excelled, " I
have confidence that the House of Commons will do me
justice. I am anxious for the independence of the judges,
and I do not wish to have it assailed by one branch of the
Legislature. I consider the motion as trenching upon the
independence of the bench, and insulting to individual
judges ; but if there be any complaint, it may be right, in
a proper way, to investigate that Complaint ; but if there
he no complaint nor incoveeience, it may bo surely left
to each judge to decide for himself at wh it time ho ought
to retire from a trust which he holds for the public bene-
fit." The learned judge added, "If any one disinterested
person—(hear, hear)—had stated to mesany inconvenience,
or suspec el inconvenience, likelyto arise from my going the
circuit, I would have gone into the matter, and consulted
with those of my friends who were competent to advise
me, and I would not have suffered the public to be im-
posed on, or myself to be disgraced ; but as there has been
no complaint, I cannot see how justice can be furthered
by such a motion. If the Government does its duty, it
will resist a motion which exposes a judge to contumely."
(Hear, hear.) This learned judge had a person to take
notes—he had those notes read over to him, ant his power-
ful memory enabled him to correct any errors. Ile (Mr.
Napier) saw the hon, baronet the member for Derry, and
the hon. member for Tyrone, who had seen this judge on
circuit. He appealed to both sides of the house. He
asked every disinterested person to stand up in that house
and say that he was prepared to substantiate any case in
which injustice had been done by Baron Pennefather.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. baronet (Sir J. Shelley) was only
using this motion as a mere stalking-horse, unless ho was
prepared to go further and address the Crown upon the
subject. It was manifest that the Govere meat, by sitting
silent, were accessories either before or after the fact.
(Hear, hear.) The hon. baronet (Sir J. Shelley) had stated
no grounds for his motion—he had only stated the case of
a dissatisfied suitor. He (Mr. _Napier) remembered that
when his most excellent friend and old roaster Sir .r ohn
Pattesou—a man to whim he was more indebted than
to any professional friend -when he proposed to re-
tire, the noble lord the member for the City of London
(Lord J. Russell), to his honour and. credit, sent for him
and said, " You are of value ; if you will remain we will
have a substitute for you to go circuit, to prevent the occur-
rence of any inconvenience." (Hear.) The late Chief
Justice Doherty did not go the circuit for years. Baron
Pennefather being deprived of books, felt that the court
was a resort to him, and ho likel his duties there. He (Mr.
Napier) would ask any gentleman whether he would con-
sent to cast a stigma upon that learned person ? No gentle.
man in England, Ireland, or Scotland would, he was con-
vinced, without any shadow of proof, consent to cast such
a stigma. (Hear, hear.) By such a course as this they
encouraged the newspapers to hold up the judges to attack.
Mr. Justice Crampton was now included in the category,
though, to use a familiar phrase, n more wide-awake judge
could not be found on the bench. (Hoar.) If they lessened
the respect of the people fur the judges they would strike a
blow at the law of the land on the constitution. ll° asked
what should accompany old age?—" Honour and troops of
friends." He said that Baron Pennofather, Chief Justice
Lefroy, and Mr. Justice Torrons had both honour and
troops of friends. The hon. baronet (..;ir J. Shelley)
stated that there wore hon. and learned gentlemen who
were aspirants for the beach, and in his (Mr. Napier')
own case he had trumped up some story which had not a
shadow of foundation. If he were offered the high honour
of a seat on the bench, and if he felt that he had any infir-
mity which would prevent him from properly discharging
the functions of the office lie trusted that, when the time
arrived, he would have sufficient moral courage to decline
that honour. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Baron Pennofather
says—" I am 82 years of age. I have gone 68 circuits, and
I think that I can do my business. It is a pleasure to me
to do my duty, and, as no dissatisfaction has been ex.
pressed, I do not wish to put the country to the expense
of my retiring salary." He (Mr. Napier), with the learned
judge, had every confidence in the justice of the House
of Commons, and he was persuaded that it would not cast
a stigma ou a public servant who had been faithful and
zealous in the discharge of hie duty. This was a whole-
sale attack. What was the matter with Judge Terrene ?
He sat every day during last term, and he looked as fresh
though perhaps less anxious, than the noble lord opposite.
(Hear-, hoar.) Chief Justice Lefroy finished his business
quicker than many younger judges. Were they to have
a return of the ages of the Cabinet, of their generals, and
'admirals? He wanted to know where these inquiries were
to stop ? He put it to the house—was it becoming to
agree to such a motion ? If they did so, could they expect
the judges to be independent? If the judges were only to
be protected by a friendly government, and if they were
to be left unprotected by an unfriendly government, what
would be the effect on the administration of justice ? Lot
them be assured that so long as they did their duty faith-
fully—though they might be old, and subject to infirmity
--they would bo protected in the upright and honourable
discharge of their duties, and with these observations, he
would leave the case to the justice of the House of Com-
mons. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY said that the. right hon. gentleman had
made assertions which could,not be supported. He alleged
that there had been some arrangement between the Go-
vernment and the hon. baronet, and he assumed that the
Government was unfriendly to the judges, and that is
would not defend them. These were totally unfounded
assertions. But the right hon, gentleman had assumed a
tone quite unconstitutional in limiting the authority of
the house with respect to inquiries as to the manner in
which judges discharged their duties. Last session an hon.
member asked whether the Government was aware of the
state of the judicial-bench of Ireland. He asked whether
some of the judges were not incapacitated by infirmity
from attending to their duties—and whether the Govern-
ment had not been obliged to find substitutes for them—a
course which necessarily entailed a charge upon the conso-
lidated fund. If the house would agree to ad address for
the removal of a judge, it could, of course, institute a
preliminary inquiry to ascertain whether there was any
truth in the allegation which had been brought forward.
He (Sir G. Grey) was present last session when a question
was put by his right hon. friend the Secretary for Ireland
on this subject. His noble friend at the head of the Go-
vernment was also present. The subject was never before
brought under hie (Sir G. Grey's) attention. He never
heard any charge against the judges of Irelend for absent-
ing themselves from circuit or other duties. But hearing
that question put, in a private letter which ho addressed to
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, ho informed him that such
a statement had been made, and asked him (the Lord Lieu-
tenant) to furnish him with any grounds upon which such
a statement could be made. Ho (Sir G. Grey) asked if
there was any infirmity on the part of the Irish judges that
obliged them to apply for substitutes. He received an an-
swer from his noble friend the Lard Lieutenant of Ireland,
in which be informed him that the statements were greatly
exaggerated. (Hear.) The Lord Lieutenant said that,
whatever might be the case with respect to the absence of
any of the judges on circuit, at the time he was then
writing ovary one of the judges were engaged iu the dis-
charge of their duties in Dublin, and that he believed
every judge except Baron Richards, who was specially ex-
empt from going circuit, had regularly done so. He (the
Lord Lieutenant) added that he thought the only proba-
ble case was that of Baron Pennefather, of whom, though
the Lord Lieutenant spoke in the highest terms as regarded '
the vigour of his mind and his eminent endowments, ho
said he was ueforiunately totally blind, and that, though
ho believed he discharged his duties efficiently, he tthe
Lord Lieutenant) could not defend his seat on the bench.
(Hear.) He (the Lord Lieutenant) further informed him
that Baron Peunefather's absence from the bench would
be a serious loss—(a laugh)—owing to the manner in which
be discharged his duties ; at the same time, it wasimpossible
to deny that his blindness did not giverise to dissatisfaction.
(Hear.) A charge had been brought forward in that house
of the habitual absence of those judges from their duty, and
that several of them wore incapacitated, from age and in-
firmity, from going circuit; and the member for West-
minster (Sir J. Shelley) having given notice that in this
session he should propose II notice on the subject, and hav-
ing given that notice, it became necessary for the Govern-
ment to consider what their duty would be with respect to
such a motion. Shortly before the meeting of Parliament,
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland addressed to him (Sir O.
Grey) another private letter, repeating his high opinion of
Baron Pennefather, and also stating that, as a question of
principle, he could not justify the retention of a. seat on the
bench by any judge permanently afflicted with the infir-
mity of blindness, and therefore, not with the slightest
idea of casting any imputation on Baron Pennefather, but
with that kindness of heart which was characteristic of the
Lord-Lieutenaut of Ireland—(hear, hear)—be requested the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland to communicate to Baron-Pen-
nefather that, if any motion should be brought before that
house, he thought the Government would be unable to de-
fend his continuance on the bench. (Hoar.) That com-
munication was made to Baron Pennofather by the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland. The Lord-Lieutenant then told him
(Sir G. Grey) what had been done, and he (Sir G. Grey)
told bins he thought everything had been done that
could
be done. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Napier) pre-
tended that the Government were not prepared to take any
course upon this motion, but they thought it due to Baron
Penuefatber that be should have an opportunity of laying
his case before the house, and that had boon done by the
right hon. gentleman. He (Sir G. Grey) bad now stated
the whole of this transaction as respected the Government,
and he now asked the house whether any ground existed fur
the charge made by the right hon. gentleman against the
Government, of any uncoustitutional proceeding, or any
proceeding inconsistent with the station and age of Baron
Pounefather ? The right hon. gentleman defended Baron
Peunefather's character against no assailant. The only
charge, if it could be called a charge—against Baron Pen-
nefather—was one which they must all lament, that he
was permanently afflicted with blindness; his age wasno disqualification, excepting that it prevented any
hope, or at best a very slight ono, that he would ever re-
cover his sight. He must say that, under these circum-
stances, the Government t, o's: a course which he hoped
the house would not disapprove of; anti he believed the

ter, and the return was, so far as regarded the then coming
circuit, satisfactory. The statement was now repeated, and
fur his part he ceuhl not see what objection there could be
to the return, if the return was s itisfactory the matter
would at once be set at rest. The right hon. member for the
University had spoken of calumnious charges —no charge
at ail had been made. It was stated that some of the judges
were incapable of discharging their duties. The only ques-
tion was whether that statement was true or not. Most
men were visited with infirmities at a certain period of life,
there were indeed some exceptions, one man of SO was as
capable as another at 60; if, however, it was attempted to
lay down as a general rule that men over SO wore competent
to the discharge of judicial functions, ho must beg to dis-
sent. He had not the honour of Baron Pennefather's ac-
quaintance, but from all he had ever heard, it was impos-
sible not to feel satisfied that there never had been a more
able or more upright judge in England or in Ireland. He
believed that Baron Pennefather was as entirely capable as
ever to discharge certain duties, that his miad was as clear,
his legal knowledge as sound. Unfortunately, however,
for him, and perhaps also for the public, his labours
could not entirely be confined to the sittings in banco ;
he would be as capable as ever to weigh forensic argu-
ments and come to a decision, but English and Irish
judges had other duties to discharge, they had to go
circuit end preside at Niel Prius, they had, above all, to
preside at a criminal trial. It was the great characteristic
of English and Irish law that the witnesses were exemined
not only viva more but in the presence of the judge and
jury, and they formed their opinion as to the character
and credibility of the witnesses, not only from what they
said, but from their demeanour. To observe that de-
meanour was one of the most important functions of the
judge, and to direct the jury to determine the credit they,
should attach to a witness from the manner in which he
gave his evidence. , Another most itnportart part of a
judge's duty was to take notes of the proceedings at the
time. It was stated indeed tht Baron Pennefather availed
himself of the services of a short-hand writer, but he could
not avail himself of these notes during the trial, or in his
charge to the jury. It was the undoubted right of a party
to have any portion of the evidence road to the jury, and
could they imagine a more painful spectacle than if such
an appeal was made to Baron Pennefather ? However
much disposed he might be to admire the attainments and
the talents of that learned judge, however deeply he
might deplore his being reduced to the unhappy condition
in which he now was, but which incapacitated him from
the discharge of some of the most important functions of
his office, yet he could not but feel that the time was come
when with benefit to the public he might retire from the
discharge of those duties. (Hear, hear.)
Sir F. THESIGER thought the right hon. Attorney-
General had led the house astray from the question before
it. (Hear.) They were not then considering the capacity
of Baron Pennefather. It would seem from the right hon.
gentleman's speech that the motion was in fact one for the
removal of Baron Pennefather. (Hear.) .The motion,
however, only asked for a return of the date of the call and
appointment of the Irish judges, and the number of times
they were absent from circuit. What were the grounds
made out for the motion ? The mover referred to three
cases, Chief Justice Lefroy, Judge Torrens, and Baron
Pennefather, and made some strong remarks on the infir-
mities of the latter. The right lion. baronet the Secre-
tary for the House Department referred however to a re-
turn which showed there was not a single instance of the
absence of either of the three individuals referred to.
Sir G. GREY—I said that Baron Pennefather was most
regular in his attendance, but that with regard to the
other two I had no information.
Sir F. THESIGER said that there was no information
which showed that all the three had been most regular in
their attendance. Surely the house would not pass a
motion like this, unless some ground were laid for it. Had
it not been for the blindness of Baron Pennefather, no-
thing whatever could have been alleged in support of the
motion. The Attorney-General seemed to think that that
infirmity rendered the baron unfit for the duties of his
hi eh office, and he had intimated that at a certain time of
life—say eighty—a judge ought to retire.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—No, no; I said nothing
of the kind. (Hear, hear.)
Sir P. THESIGER admitted that he hail misunderstood
the hon. and learned gentleman. lie differed from his
learned friend as to the duty of a judge to comment on the
demeanour of witnesses; it was for the jury to judge of
this. But it was said the learned baron could not take
notes of the evidence. Now, it was known that there
were different ways of taking notes—some judges did it
very carefully—some very Alovenly. To his knowledge,
Chief Baron Alexander never took re note on circuit, but
had the marshal by his side to do it for him.

The .ATTORNIY-GENERAL—But the judge read
the beteg after.

Sir F. THESIGER was at present speaking of taking
the notes. He believed Lord Lyndhurst pursuedthe same
practice. In iced, many judges thought that taking notes
only distracted their attention from the points of the case,
and it had boon suggested that shorthand writers should be
employed in all tho courts to perform this duty, He under-
stood that Baron Pennefather had such a remarkable me-
mory that he could recall and sum up all the facts of a
most complicated case. He had lone this in a very im-
portant will case which had lasted five days. Bat they
were not trying Baron Pennefather; the motion merely
asked for returns of the attendance of the judges; but he
could not resist the belief that it was in reality au attack
on Baron Pennefather, and an attempt to drive him from
the bench. It would be likely to produce the most mis-
chievous effect on the administration of justice generally.
Mr. S. WORTLEY could not support the motion, for
he felt there was no prima facie case made out to carry it
further, so as to send a memorial to the Crown • bat at the
same time he was not prepared to sanction the principle
that a judge, however competent in his faculties, was qua-
lified in jury cases to hold his seat when it had pleased
God to afflict him with the loss of sight.
Mr. GEORGE defended the character of Mr. Baron Pen-
nefather, and charged the Government with being the
originators of the motion.
Mr. H. A. BRUCE said when he had brought ou a simi-
lar motion on a former occasion, it was from information
he received from some friends of his that some of the
judges were unable to attend to their duties, and he had
every reason to believe that that information was correct.
Sir R. FERGUSON defended the character of Baron
Pennefather.

Mr. J. G. PHILLIMORE coulsl not 'vote for the mo-
tion, as there was no case made out to justify it, and such
a decision would be unjust and illiberal.

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, 'FEBRUARY 15, 1856.

ever, that however eminent and able he might be, there
were judichl duties which, as a blind man, he could not
perform. Having brought forward the motion he felt that
ho should not bo doing his duty to that house, or to those
venerable men whose names had been made the subject of
debate, by then withdrawing it.
Mr. F. FRENCH said the, hon, member for Westminster
having just declared that he had not uttered any calumny
against Baron Penuefather, he begged to ask him what he
meant by dying that the learned judge retained his office
from cupidity? (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. SHELLEY—If I Earn allowed to make an answer
to the observation of the hon. gentleman, it will be this.
(Spoke.) I said that if men retaining their offices after they
were disqualified by their age and infirmities from performing
their duties, it was calculated to create an impression that
they were influenced by motives of cupidity.
The house divided on the question that the words "in
Ireland " stand part of the question—
Ayes
Noes

. 134
. 120-14

The words were therefore retained.
The house then divided on the main question. Just before
the numbers were announced, Mr. Wilkinscn, one of the
tellers, said—Mr. Speaker, one of the hon. members refuses
to vote. He won't come in. (A laugh.)
. _ _

The SPEAKER—Then the tellers must signify to the hon.
member that he must come to the table, (Laughter.)
The tellers accordingly left the house, but immediately
afterwards returned, bringing with them in a sort of qua,,i
custody Sir James Duke, whose appearance was the signal
for renewed merriment.
The SPEAKER—The house has been informed that the
hon. member for the city of Loudon has refused to vote.
Did he hear the question put?
Sir J. DUKE —I will explain it all in a few words. (Order )
The SPEAKER—Did you hear the question put?
Sir J. DUKE—I did not. I was In the left lobby writing
a note, and I was not aware that a second division was going
to be taken, until the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Napier)
came to me. I was going away, but he stopped me, and said
I was in very good company. (Loud laughter.)
The SPEAKER—Then you did not hear the question put t
Sir J. DUKE—I did not.
The SPEAKER—The hon. member need not voto ; he may
go forth.
Sir James accordingly retired amidst renewed laughter.
. _

The result of the division thou stated—
Ayes
Noes
The resolution was then carried. (Chem )
SU SIMARY JURISDICTION.

~ 132
121-11.

Mr. L. KING moved for, and obtained leave to bring in, a
bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to the sum-
mary jurisdiction of justices of the peace.
THE BALTIC FLEET.

Sir C. NAPIER postponed his motion upon this subject to
a future day.

DRAINAGE ADVANCES ACT.

Mr. WILSON obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the
above act.

DWELLINGS FOR LABOURING CLASSES (IRELAND.)

Sir W. SOMERVILLE obtained leave to bring in a bill to
encourage the providiag of improved dwellings for the la-
bouring classes in Ireland.