The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-24 00:00:00

do mischief in France,"but act in this country. They might
lead to the raising of barricades and to a revolution there, but
an Englishman under such temporary excitement would only
swallow down a little more beer, and smoke a little more to-
bacco.

An HON. .MEhitiva supported the motion upon the ground
that persons of rank and importance in the country had been
equally guilty with these men, and were not punished. What
yr as good for the goose was good for the gander. The only
difference he could see in the cases was that Downing-street
was nearer to the Yorkshire Stingo than places where similar
libels were uttered. He supported the motion on the same
ground as the Hon. and Gallant Officer ( Sir H. Hardinge.)
The Hon. Member was scarcely audible.
Sir H. HARDING E explained. His principle was that
the law ought to be carried into effect ; but as similar condudt
in higher quarters was allowed to pass unnoticed he thought
this formed a ground for taking the case now before them into
consideration.
Lord ALT HORP thought there was very good reason for
this prosecution. It was said that no act of a criminal nature
followed this publication. He would not say that certain acts
which afterwards took place were occasioned by it, but cer-
tainly resistance was made after it to carrying the law into
effect. He was as little disposed as any man to prosecutions
for libel. He was the advocate of free discussion and free in-
quiry, but he considered Government bound to prosecute in
cases of excitement to a breach of the laws. He did not mean
to say it ought to be done in every case, brut certainly this was
one in which the power was very properly exercised.
Mr. TENNYSON did not think it would be right to take
out of the hands of Government the power of prosecuting in
cases of seditious libel, or of libels tending to a breach of
the law. It should be, however, taken into consideration that
this libel was published at a period of much excitement, and
that similar language was uttered by persons high in station.
As far as he recollected, this publication only recommended a
tacit resistance to the law. Considering all the circumstances,
it would give satisfaction to the country if pardon was extended
to these men.
Mr. MAXWELL said, the individuals who were now suf-
fering had the example set them for their conduct by men of
rank and men in office. The paper in which this libel ap-
peared was the only representative of a certain class 9f opi-
nions, and ought on that account to be viewed with sonie little
indulgence. He should be better pleased to have this ques-
tion postponed, and held some little time longer suspended
over Parliament and over the Government. If something
was not done he would then be ready to support the motion
of the Hon. Member for Cork. He was himself often guilty of
the same offence as that for which these men were now suf-
fering. What this newspaper contended for was that taxes
should not be extorted from the poor, who were unable to
pay them.
Mr. O'CONNELL did not see how the experiment al-
luded to by the Hon. Member could be made, that of extort-
ing money from those who had none to pay. It was only in his
country that a thing of this kind could be done.—( A laugh. )
Their code of laws was in some parts detestable ; but no part
of it was more disgraceful than the Law of Libel. He brought
in a Bill upon the subject, but a wet blanket was thrown upon
it by the Committee. It was suffocated. He hoped they would
have the Report of that Committee before long. The Attor-
ney-General denied that the law considered anything a libel
which hurt the feelings. The law was so laid down by Lord
Ellenborough and the Court of King's Bench in the case of
Mr. Cobbett. Lord Hardwick was spoken of as a Cambridge-
shire sheepfeeder, and Lord Redesdale as a stout special
pleader, and this was pronounced to be a libel. He denied the
correctness of the position laid down by the Attorney-General
in reference to the Libel Committee. It was not a Secret
Committee in the sense attached to the words by the Hon.
avid Learned Gentleman. And there was nothing to prevent
him or any other person from stating what occurred there, and
under the correction of the Chair he would now mention part
of the evidence. The Solicitor-General, and not the Attor-
ney-General, was in the Chair when the Lord Chancellor was
examined, and that Noble and Learned Lord did most empha-
tically condemn all prosecutions of this kind. The question
was put, " Does your Lordship mean to include in this con-
demnation the prosecution of the True Sun?" " Oh no,"
was the answer, " that prosecution was a very proper one."
With respect to attacks upon the House of Parliament, was
it to be supposed that they could do any serious mischief ?
They were read one day and forgotten the next. The induce-
ment to this prosecution was that it led to breaches of the law.
The only case of resistance to the law occurred six weeks or
two months before it was written. It could not be the cause
of what took place before it was in existence.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The cases of resistance
were subsequent.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished there was a jury to decide that
point 'between them. Cases of resistance took place before
the libel was written, and of these at least it could not, even
in Ireland, have been the cause. Some women, he believed,
did afterwards rescue a chest of drawers and a few old chairs,
but was it to be supposed that a publication of this kind could
produce a general spirit of resistance to the laws, or be pro-
ductive of any serious mischief ? The Hon. and Gallant
Officer ( Sir H. Hardinge) supported this motion ufon the
ground that Sir Thomas Denman expressed certain opinions on
the subject of libel, for which, though he might have been
censure(' by some of his colleagues, he was now Chief Justice
of the King's Bench, and at the head of the criminal law
of this country. He supported it because men of rank
and persons in office were guilty of a similar offence, and
went unpunished. The Honourable and Gallant Member
was a good General, but here he showed himself to be a bad
advocate, and he might be assured that poor Bell and Grant
would derive very little benefit from such advocacy as this.
Perhaps these unfortunate men were too strenuous in sup-
porting Reform ; but they were now suffering in gaol, their
families were suffering, and it could not be said there was any
resistance now to the payment of taxes. Under such circum-
stances he would be rather disposed to leave the matter to the
kind consideration of the Noble Lord. He would recom-
mend to his Hon. Friend to withdraw the motion, as the de-
cision might seem to depend upon considerations not properly
connected with the merits of the question itself, considering
the grounds upon which some Hon. Members supported it.
He should be better pleased to leave the matter with the Go-
vernment than come to any decision upon it.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said he could not feel himself justi-
fied in withdrawing the motion unless he received some as-
surance from the Noble Lord.—(" Oh, oh," and " No; no.")
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. O'Connor's amendment
Against it _ lO3

Majority

. -62

DISTURBANCES SUPPRESSION (IRELAND)
BILL.

On our return to the Gallery we found the House in Com-
mittee on this Bill, and
Mr. O'CONNELL objecting to the 28th clause, and say-
ing that he should move that it be omitted. The next clause
to which he should call the attention of the House was the
31st, by which the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended. The
effect of this clause was that the Habeas Corpus Act would
be suspended all over Ireland, and that a person might be
committed to gaol for three months for a bailable offence
without being allowed to put in bail. By the 32d section
the pol;er of bail was taken away from the Magistrates. He
submitted that there was nothing in the present state of Ire-
land to justify in the slightest degree the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act in that country. He hoped therefore
that there would be no resistance on the part of the Commit-
tee to the expunging of those two clauses out of the Bill. The
Hon. and Learned Member concluded by moving an amendment
to the effect, having the 28th and 31st clauses repealed.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL contended that the omis-
sion of those clauses would rather aggravate than mitigate the
severity of the proposed law. If the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin expunged those clauses' the consequence would
be that the trials of persons might be delayed six months, ac-
cording to the time of holding the Assizes, whereas, by the
thirty-second section of the Bill, persons taken into custody
must be tried within three months either before the Quarter
Sessions or in some other way. The effect of the enactment
was that persons might be kept in custody for three months,
but no longer. He considered that there was an unnecessary
jealousy as to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, as a
return to it was only good in cases where delay in trials was
absolutely requisite.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to be understood, for he did
not intend to propose the omission of the latter part of the
32d section. By doing away with those clauses offences of
capital felony would not be bailed, but bailable offences would
b 2 liable to be so.

Sir R. PEEL could not refrain from expressing fiis surprise
to the House that a discussion on a measure of such vast im-
portance should be carried on without having the Bill before
them. There were only two copies of the Act, one that was
on the table of the House, and the other that belonged to the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. He would defy the
House to carry on the discussion on this measure, or to know
what the Hon. and Learned Member meant, unless they had
the Act before them. How could they say to the people of
Ireland that they had discussed the Act of which the present
one was to be a continuance if they had not the Act in proper
form before them, parts of which were to be suppressed and
others retained, but which, upon the whole, was at any rate to
be mutilated ?7-( Hear.) It was most monstrous to discuss a
matter of such importance in such an imperfect state. If delay
could be pleaded, there might be some excuse, but what ob-
jection could there be to place the Bill in such a form that the
magistrates might know what they had to interpret, and the
people understand the law they would be compelled to obey?
What objection could there be to printing the Act? It had
been incorrectly said, that he objected to it because it was a
short one. On the contrary, so much the better if the Act
were shortened, since in so doing it would gain in precision.
He for one would not delay the passing of the Bill one hour,
but he would ask whether it was not reasonable that the people
who were to obey the law should have it in a proper printed
form before them ?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said there were prece-
dents for allowing the Act to remain as it was. The immortal
Acts of the Right Hon. Baronet, and which bore his name,
repealed certain Acts entire, and others, partially, and yet
those Acts remained. It was certainly necessary for the dis-
cussion that Hon. Gentlemen should have the other Act before
them—(Rear)—and he considered that it was their duty to
have a copy of the former Act. If they had taken that pre-
caution they would be enabled to see what clauses were en-
forced and what clauses were not.
Mr. T. WALLA CE said that if the debate of the former
night were compared with the Bill which was not before them,
away, as no one last night thought that the only tribunal per-
sonsit N- ooupl d b p r
eses
esde seen
utlhda
appeal to was a military one. He hoped
t the whole a tbat debate was thrown
that the whole Bill would be printed and submitted to the
House, so that any person of ordinary intelligence might know
what the proposed measure was to be. The Bill had been so

much altered that it was impos,Able for any one to know what
the new law was to be.
Mr. LITTLETON rose to call the attention of the Com-
mittee to one fact respecting the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus Act. He held in his hand a return of eight different
species of offences committed in Ireland in the months of
April, May, and November of last year. The persons guilty
of them were found out under suspicious circumstances, and,
owing to having the power or detaining them in custody, their
cases were disposed of within a month from the time of their
arrest. Most of them were guilty of capital felonies.
Mr. O'REILLY objected to the .Habeas Corpus Suspen-
sion Clause, since by it innocent persons might be taken up,
and, as they would not be allowed to put in bail, the conse-
quence was that they would be kept in prison until the time
of their trials.
Mr. H. GRATTAN commenced to address himself to the
conduct of the police towards his tenantry at Monaghan, when
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to order, and put to his Hon.
Friend whether there was not enough in the question itself to
occupy the House without introducing extrinsic matter.
After some conversation,
Mr. GRATTAN said he should go into the case on the
Report.

Mr. LYNCH maintained that the Government were bound
to show a necessity for the measure, which they had as yet
failed to do.

Mr. S HEIL called upon the Government to bring forward
the Bill with the clauses in it, so that the House might have
an opportunity of discussing its provisions in detail, and not
be called upon to enact them in the mass, as the present Bill
proposed to do. He contended that it was against the law to
suspend the Habeas Corpus Act beyond the time at which
parties had a right to claim their trial before the Judges. He
gave notice that he should move on the Report that the
Government be called on to re-enact the Coercion Bill clause
by clause.

Mr. H. GRATTAN took the same view, and said he
should divide against the clause.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR said he should not detain the House
by any arguments, because he was convinced that whether he
argued against it or not the Bill would be carried through.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL vindicated the course
taken by the Government.

Mr. IIUTHVEN said the Bill was unintelligible to a great
number of persons, and the Attorney-General's explanation of
it had been given with great hesitation, and was controverted
by Hon. and Learned Gentlemen on that (the Opposition
side of the House, who were quite as competent to give a
opinion on the matter as himself. The Hon. Member consi
dered the whole Bill as a compromise to retain office.
After a few words from Mr. O'CoNNELL and Mr. LITTLE
TON, the Committee divided on the amendment--
For the amendment
Against it
3Lai/6 ta3gr reed to.
The clause was
On our re-admission we found
Mr. O'CONNELL on his legs, proposing a clause to om
from the original I3ill the clause relating to signals.
The clause was brought up and read a first time.
On the motion that it be read a second time,
Mr. LITTLETON opposed it; the clause which it pro-
posed to expunge was one of the most important in the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. RUTHVEN,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL supported the origina
clause, which he said related only to cases where it was clearly
proved to the Jury that the signals were made for an illegal
purpose.

35

- Mr. H. GRATTAN said that on. St. John's Eve the pea-
santry were in the habit of lighting bonfires, and that it would
be very hard to subject them to punishment for so doing.
The Committee then divided—
For Mr. O'Connell's clause ............... 97
Against it
Majority

................ -45

On our re-admission to the Gallery, we found Mr.-
LYNCH
on his legs, making some observations on the powers of the
courtmartial.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL explained.
Mr. O'CONNELL complained that though the Bill gave
the Lord Lieutenant the power to prolaim any district ho
pleased, it did not give him powerto revoke that proclamation.
After a few observations in reply from the ATTORNEY-
GENERA L, the preamble to the Bill was agreed to, and the
CHAIRMAN reported progress.
The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be
received to-morrow (this day).
ARMS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. LITTLETON, this Bill was read a first
time.

The Roman Catholic Marriages (Ireland) Bill was corn
mitted.

The Excise Revenue Management Bill was also committed.
AUSTRALIAN 'COLONIZATION BILL.
Mr. W. WHITMORE, in moving the second reading of
this Bill, said its object was to extend great relief to England
and Ireland, by affording facilities to able-bodied labourers
who could not obtain adequate employment at home to emi-
grate to a new Colony about to be planted in Australia, and,
if the experiment succeeded, emig-ration would be ca-ried on
to a great extent to the benefit of the Parent Country, and the
expenses would be defrayed by the Colony, and this country
would not be called on to pay a shilling.
The motion having been seconded,
Mr. F. O'CONNOR opposed the Bill. The object of it
was to drain the two countries of the able-bodied labourers,
and leave only the infirm at home. In Ireland there were
not able-bodied labourers enough for the demand. It was so
in his own parish. He should rather see employment fur-
. nished to the labourers at home than see them expatriated.
Mr. SHEIL thought it paradoxical for the Hon. Member
to object to the exportation of labourers from Ireland, where
there was a superabundance of population. So far from their
being an insufficiency of labourers there was rather an insuffi-
ciency of labour. In his own parish able-bodied labourers
came to the doors of the gentlemen, and said, " Give us food
or labour." Food they sometimes could not give, but labour
they could never give.
Mr. S. RICE hoped the speculation would succeed. A
case was certainly made to induce the Government not to
oppose it. Yet the Government did not stimulate the friends
of the measure. It steered a middle course between refusal
and encouragement. He (Mr. S. Rice) had the Swan River
project before his eyes, and he did not, when applied to, hold
out any strong inducements of support. But he proposed, by
way of guarantee against loss to the public, that there, should
be a sum of 20,0001. available for public security. That was
an amendment on the original plan proposed by him.
Mr. HUGHES thought it a bad system of emigration to
send men to " waste and unoccupied lands," as the Report
expressed. It was a bubble speculation. It was too late in
the night to discuss a measure involving so many interests at
that late hour, and he would move that the Bill be read a
second time that day week.
The motion was seconded.

Mr. O'RE ILL Y asked were the children to be sent out
also, or were they to be left a burden on the country at home ?
Mr. W. WHITMORE said the labourers and their wives
only were to be sent out, and not the children, unless the ex-
pensemere defrayed from some other fund.
After a few words from Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY, the House
divided, when there appeared__
For the second reading
For Mr. Hughes's motion
Majority... ...............
In answer to a question from Mr. SHEIL,
Mr. W. WHITMORE said the great object was to send
out unencumbered labourers of both sexes. Individuals with
families would not be sent out at all.
Mr. S. RICE, in answer to a question from Mr. Ruthven,
said that, so far from his holding out to applicants expectations
of appointments in the new Colony, he expressly stated to
them that until Parliament disposed of the Bill he could
make no premises. If the Bill passed then the appointments
to the Colony would be the same as to all other Crown Colo-
nies. The prerogative of the Crown was to be perfectly free,
and the salaries were to be the same as in all the other Crown
Colonies.

-16

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
he House adjourned at Three o'clock.

The herring fishing has commenced at Thurso, but
as yet has been attended with very little success. The few
first taken were, however, of good quality. Great preparation
is going on at Wick, and a number of people have already col-
lected from all quarters, in anticipation of immediate employ-
ment ; but, although it is almost a month later than the usual
period for commencing the fishing at Wick, a single herring
has not yet appeared on the coast. At Shetland, the early
fishing has been very successful. The great merchants of
Lerwick, Messrs. Hay and Ogilvy, have sent off no less than
five cargoes for Hamburgh, and are at present making prepa-
rations for curing 30,000 barrels. Ninety Dutch vessels were
lying at Lerwick about the beginning* of the month, but they
had not then been very fortunate.—Caledonian Alercury.
EFFECTS OF TIIE LIGIITNING.—On Friday even-
ing, about 7 o'clock, as James Hooper, a carman in the employ
of Mr. Graves, a cheesemonger, in Tottenham-court-road, was
driving a horse and cart with some goods, on passing Charing-
cross he was knocked down by the lightning, and deprived of
his sight. The horse was also knocked down and had one eye
injured. Hooper was taken to a surgeon's, and afterwards
conveyed home in a cabriolet. Great hopes are entertained
that he will ultimately recover the use of his eyes. ,

A heavy thunder-storm, at Rahon, near Doyle, ac-
companied with rain, had forced a number of labourers to
take shelter under a shed, in which also were three carts
laden with hay, one having three horses, and the other two,
and a couple of oxen each, when the lightning struck the
shed, killed the two horses and their driver, and set fire to the
inane of the third horse ; it likewise killed two of the oxen,
knocked down two of the labourers, one of whom was killed,
and set fire to the shed and adjoining barns.—French Paper.
LUNAR RAINBOW.—One of those beautiful ap-
pearances so frequent in tropical climates, and so rarely met
with in ours, a lunar rainbow, was observed in the neighbour-
hood of this town, on Tuesday evening last, at about half-past
ten o'clock. A short time previously the moon had been shining
through a highly-rarified atmosphere, with more than usual
brightness, above a ridge of black clouds in the south-west,
with a mildness in the line of sky beneath of surpassing beauty ;
the whole scene breathing poetry, and reminding those who
were fortunate enough to behold it of a delicious Eastern even-
ing, when a shower of light rain falling in the opposite guar-
ter of the heavens, reflected her rays in a perfect bow ; and
though, indeed, not strongly enough to define with distinct-
ness the prismatic colours, still with sufficiently powerful re-
fraction to produce the faint outline of an exterior bow a few
degrees above it. Intruding clouds, in the course of a few se-
conds, •infortunately destroyed the remarkable and beautiful
phenomenon.—From a Correspondent.