The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-18 00:00:00

was perfectly quiet, and ought to have been excepted from
the operation of the proclamation._

Mr. SPRING RICE saw no objection to the first part
of the Hon. Gentleman's motion for a copy of the Procla
!nation. and for a return of the state of crime ; but to al
beyond he inustmostdecidedly object.

Mr. D W. HARVEY said that he had not heard a
singbr argument from the opposite side of the House in
justification of the course which had been adopted towards
the city of Kilkenny, which would not equally justify the
adoption of a similar course towards the whole of Ireland.
The Right Hon. Gentleman's speech. was purely an expe-
rimental speech. The measure was given on the respon-
sibility of Ministers ; that responsibility was now fairly and
publicly challenged, and Ministers were bound to produce
the evidence, and to show the causes upon which they
proceeded.
Mr. S. RICE explained.

Mr. W. ROCHE contended, on his own personal in-
formation, that tnere was no city in Ireland that had a
fairer right to stand exempted from tlte operation of the
present measure than the city of Kilkenny. He asserted,
on his own responsibility, that that city was in a state of
tranquillity.

Mr. AGLIONBY expressed his surprise that the mo-
tion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin should
have met with the reception it had at the hands of the
House ; and that his Majesty's Ministers should not have
instantly conceded, as a matter of right, demands so rea-
sonable as those of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It
was the duty of Government to prove—the onus probandi
entirely rested with them--'hit the city of Kilkenny was
in such a state of disturbance as to require the enforcement
of the Act that had been !ably passed. The question, at
present. was not whether the Government were right or
wrong in their proceedings, but whether the House had a
ri4ht to call for the documents to which the motion before
the House related.

Sir S. WHALLEY said that his Majesty's Ministers
were not cllleif upon to defend their conduct, but "to give
to the House information on the necessity of proclaiming
the city of Kilkenny. He, therefore, conjured Ministers,
unless there were very great obs,acles to so doing, to pro-
duce the documents asked for by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin.

Lord SANDON said. that having consented to a de-
parture from the Constitution, he was willing to see it
put into full execution. He thought that the onus pro-
bon& did not rest with Ministers ; hut that it rested with
the opposite party to prove that there was no necessity for
the enforcement of the present measure. He would heartily
supp trt Ministers in the refusal tbey were then making to
produce the doeumputs called for.
Mr. O'CONNELL called to the recollection of Hon.
Memhers. that on a former occasion he moved, that in
a fortnight after the proclaiming of any district by the
Lord Lieutenant—provided that that House was then
sitting—evidence should be adduced, and reasons given,
why that district had been proclaimed. He acknowledged
that his motion was lost by a large m rjttrity. But the
Ministers promised that, upon all occasions, they would
instantly r oduced evidence, and give reasons for the pro
claiming of any district. Had they kept their word?
Their present conduct was the answer. As for the argu-
ment, that Kilkenny would be an asylum, or that any
other district would bean asylum for the lawless, nothing
could be more shallow—more unstatesmanlike. By none
of_ the eauses of the Act was it provided that a place should
he proclaimed because it was an asylum. It was enacted
that a district should be proclaimed when it was found to
be in a state of disturbance. But was the city of Kilkenny
disturbed? It was not. The Proclamation was a lie!
That Proclamation, sir.,ned by the Lord Lieutenant, the
Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and by the Irish Ei•
Attorney-General, was a lie ! That it was a lie, had been
that evening admitted by the Right Hon. Secretary for
Ireland, and by his Majesty's Attorney and Solicitor-Ge-
neral; and yet the Lord Lieutenant was allowed to pro-
claim a tranquil city—to deprive its peaceable inhabitants
of the trial by jury—to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act
—and to force them to remain within d ors between the
hours of sun set and sun rise Hon. Members on the
other side of th- House had unceasingly cried out about
confidence in Ministers—that Ministers would well repay
that confidence. This was the confidence which the Irish
people were taught to look for from the Reformed House
of Parliament. They talked about suppressing Whit,-
feet, yet their Bill was the best calculated means of making
Whiteteet. For instance, would the people of Kilkenny
be more satisfied for their oppression ? Since the Mi-
nisters had only got this B II on the agreement that they
would never do wrong witnout just cause, he now de-
manded, since they had done wrung, that they would show
some reason for it. If Ministers refused this, the only
just cause would be that they had none to give.

The H..u.e then divided, when there appeAred
For the motion
Against it ll5
Majority -87

Mr. SPRING: RICE said be had a prop .sal to make,
which he had little doubt would be acceded to by the
House. It referred to the Customs Regulations' Bills,
which were purely a consolidation of the existing Acts on
that subject, containing no new Act whatever. He had
to propose that these should be read for a second time to-
nivt, and postpone the committee on them till that day
month, in order to give all parties the fullest opportu-
niiies of having the most accurate information as to the
state of the existing law, and the contemplated alterations.
He should therefore move .hat these Bills be now read for
the second time, and committed on that day month.
The questi..n being put,

. _
Mr. YOUNG strongly objected to getting all at once at
such an imprtant stage in these all-important Bills,
which had been only introduced that day. The explana-
tion given by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had
been so far satisfactory, but he still thought that it would
be most advisable that the House should have timely and
ex ict intimation of what these contemplated alterations
were, so that they might not enter into committee blind-
fold, and without having had opportunities for due de ibe-
ration, as would be the case otherwise; for unless full un-
derstanding were kneantitne afforded on the point, they
would go Iwo committee a month hence quite as wise as
they were now.

Mr. HUME fully concurred in this opinion.
Mr. SPRING RICE quite agreed that the House
might not to go blindfold into committee on any subject.
He was sure that it could not be said that Ministers de-
vised to take the House by surprise. He, however,
thought that, by his plan, every Member would have the
best means of understanding what the law is, as it at pre-
sent standp, and precisely what the contemplated altera-

tions were.
Mr. YOUNG strongly insisted upon the necessity there
the. e was for promulgating the fullest and most timely in-
formation. There were points in the Bills which had
reference to parties in distant parts of iho country.
After a few words from Mr. EWART, the Bills—the
British Possessions' Bill, the Registry of Vessels' Bill, the
Customs Duties' Bill, the Customs Management Bill, the
Isle of Man Trade Bill, the Warehousing, the Smuggling
Prevention, the Navigation, and other Bills—were read a
second time, and committed.
On the Game Bill being read a second time,
Mr. LENNARD made a few observations, to explain
that all he intended by this was, to restore the Game Act
to what it was before.
Mr. FYSHE PALMER thought the Aet had not been
in force a sufficient time to give it a lair trial, and he de-
clared that he would divide the House on the motion.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was in favour of the Bill.
Colonel WOOD opposed the motion.
Mr. H. ROSS moved that the Bill be read a second
time that day six months.
After a few observations by Mr. LAMB, the House
divided on the amendment—
Ayes 43
Noes 2g
Majority —l4
The Bill was tneretore lost for the present Session.
The other orders of the day we: e then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Half past One.

LIST OF Tti
OF THIRTY (TELLERS INCLUDED)

MOTION,
Copy of any Despatch or Lc
of Ireland, or his Secretary, stat
the County of the City of Kilkei
dination and Disturbance, pursi
liam IV., c. 4."

ENGLAND.
A glionby, A. —Cockermouth
Attwood, Thos.—Birmingham
Blackstone, W. S.—Wallington'
lilamire' \V.—East Cumberlimo
Ewart, W.—Liverpool
Harvey, I). W.—Colchester
Jervis, J.—Chester

Parrott, J.—Totness
Mark-51anchester
ltoebuck,J. A.—. Bath

Thicknesse, R.—Wigan
Tullamore, Lord—Penryn
Warburton, fl.-13ridport
Wason, 1(.--Ipswich
Whalley, Sir S.—Marylebone