The Sun.
London, England, 1833-08-21 00:00:00

THE CHOLERA.

On the motion of Mr. P. THOMSON, the Cholera
Prevention Bill was read a third time and passed.

THE NEW POLICE.

Mr. COBBETT gave notice that to-morrow he would
make a motion relative to the conduct of certain of the
new police as detailed in the reports presented by the Coin-
nnttee appointed to inquire into the merits of the petition
of Frederick Young and others. The Hon. Member also
moved fur certain returns having relation to the proceed-
ings at Manchester in 1816, us we understood.
Lord ALTHORP said it would not be desirable for the
House to sit to-morrow evening ; it would be better to
postpone the motions that stood on the paper.
Mr. LITTLETON moved the order of the day fur
receiving the report on the Irish Tithes Bill.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON brought up the report of
the Tithes (Ireland) Bill.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL was understood to say, that it
he believed the advance provided to be made by that Bill
would be repaid, he should have acceded originally to the
propriety of the measure with the utmost willingness; but
he could not suffer the report to be brought up without
declaring his opinion that the money to be levied on the
people of England by that Bill would never be repaid.
Mr. LYNCH said that it appeared to him to be a
very narrow view of the subject, to look upon the
advance as a mere loan ; for besides its being considered
a loan, it might be said to be the purchase money of
peace in Ireland for a time. It was a price paid for the
prevention of greater evils ; this should be as much con-
sidered as the other advantages to be gained. He thought
that if the people of England were determined not to let
the Established Church be reduced in Ireland, they must
be content to make up their minds to pay the cost of
its maintenance.—(Hear, bear.) Tom was no alternative
of a permanent nature, but that of the complete abolition
of tithes. The Tithe Commutation Act of last year had
only extended the evil before in existence, for it had made
certain demands for tithes, which before the passing of
the Act were uncertain, and had enforced their payment
on land upon which they had never been previously
charged.
Mr. COBBETT supported the grant. The question
was, whether money or bayonets should be sent into
Ireland ; for his part he would rather send money. He
differed from the Hon. Member for Middlesex, as to the
security required for this advance. The great point with
him was, the means to be taken in order to secure
the effiziency of this measure. His opinion was,
was, that unless there was a complete extinction of tithes
in Ireland, there never could be any peace. What was
the fact? Why, the Right Hon. Secretary lately pre-
sented a petition from all the clergy of one diocese, stating
it was impossible without military to collect the tithes.
This was the result of the experience of 260 years, and
after that unsuccessful attempt to fasten a Protestant
religion on Ireland, he thought it would be the most dis-
creet course at length to desist.
Mr. RUTHVEN said—English Gentlemen will recol-
lect tlr.c the enormous sum of one million of money to be
added to the debt of Great Britain, is nominally given to
the church of Ireland as a loan ; but they should also
recollect that the Irish people—only eight millions in
number—are not parties to the security to be taken for
it; that they declare it to be bad and bankrupt security.
The security is the tithes of Ireland. The Irish nation, on
this point, united almost to a man, have declared for an
exclusive Church. They are no longer to be levied, and
his Majesty's Ministers have added this fiat by promising
they should be extinguished. They are justified in the
doing so—they tried the experiment of this collection—
they brought to aid the King, in the collection of tithe
made payable, for the first time, to his Majesty since
tithes were recognised by law. Dragoons, artillery, in-
fantry, and police were made, against the consciences of the
people of Ireland. The blood of my countrymen was
spilled, and many a man sent to his last resting place ;
whose spirit now calls upon the people to he true to their
country and his cause. I tell this British House of Commons
the attempt to coerce the consciences of honest men through
their landlords will fail. The Irish people object to an esta-
blished church ; they are determined not to pay for a
church supported by their industry, and connected with
the State. The Bill proposed will place the landlords of
Ireland in the situation of tithe proctors. I seek not to
dissemble, neither do the people who have sent me here.
We do not wish to saddle the landlords of Ireland with
the burden of supporting an established church ; we seek
not assistance from the generosity of England fur that
purpose ; we know the tythes are malappropriated—taken
away from their original intention and purpose ; we want
them for the support of our poor, whose right they are, who
have been robbed of them; appropriate them to just purposes
of the State, and we are willing and anxious to pay them.
Church property belongs to the people of this empire ; it
is not in any way the property of the landlord. Every
man possessing property has it subject to the payment of a
tax, which, if applied to proper purposes, there is not a
man in Ireland who would object to pay. The landlord
has no claim to it, nor would it be for the good of the
people at large if be had ; for one of the greatest misfor-
tunes—the cause of wretchedness in this country—is, that
property is too little divided—too much in the hands of
great proprietors and capitalists—too much centred in the
hands of a few, and, coosequently, of little use to the com-
munity at large. The doctrine that Church property is
inalienable, is one of mere delusion got up by a party to give
strength to an argument that cannot be supported by
sound reasoning. There was a time when the Church
had neither tithes nor lands. The clergy will not them-
selves deny that the Church was purest in those days o'
moderate equality. Attached to the Church, as its sin-
cere disciple, I wish it to stand or fail by its own merits.
If it cannot be kept up without taxing the people--with-
out grinding the poor; if its ministers require the con-
tinuance of immense funds drawn from the vitals of the
poor; if it be necessary to keep pomp, and the follies that
attend it in view, when we talk of the Established Church.
I pray to God it may cease to exist, I say it is for the