The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-18 00:00:00

of the country, but also placing the motion in the
light of one of confidence and no confidence
in the Government, at the time when the Noble
Lord was perfectly aware that there was no other party
in the country ready to take office. The question was
one of long standing, and though the Noble Lord all of a
sudden affected virtuous indignation, be must have ex-
pected it for some time, and indeed it was only in con-
sequence of the extraordinary course in refusing
to produce the evidence which bad delayed the motion
so long. The House must therefore admit-that he was
not liable to the charge of obstructing the business of
the country. He could perfectly well understand the
difficulties the Noble Lord was placed in, and his anxiety
to escape from those difficulties; and that, per-
haps, anticipating defeat upon this motion,
he did not wish to have the trouble of pre-
paring those measures which it was his duty
to bring before the country. The Noble Lord was,
however, mistaken if he thought that he (Mr. Baillie)
would be made the instrument of his being allowed to
escape from the duties which the public exigency
called upon him to perform. The course, therefore,
which he should take would be to remove
his motion from the notice book, reserving
to himself the leave of bringing it forward again at a
time when it would not render him liable to the charge
of impeding public business.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no reason to complain of
the grounds on which the Hon. Member for Inverness-
shire had founded his motion, but. be had great reason to
complain of the form in which that motion had been
framed. The House would be at no loss to construe the
object of the Hon. Gentleman, or of those who partook
of his opinions in bringing forward the motion. He did
not object to the motion, but he did object to the mode
by which that motion had keen brought before the
House. He did say that, on the present occasion, the
motion of the Hon. Member was neither more nor less
than to pass a vote of censure on the Government. There
were reasons why this motion should be brought on, and
he could perfectly understand why a vote of censure
should be obtained against the Government, especially
in a case in which the Secretary of State and the
governor of one of the principal of her Majesty's
colonies were concerned. What be had chiefly to com-
plain of was, that any member of a great party should
bring a motion before this House under circumstances
from which it was impossible for his opponents to meet
it in a fair and candid manner.—(Hear, hear.) He was
not prepared to say what course the Government would
pursue, but he complained of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Baillie) deferring his motion at a time when every ma-
terial was in his hands against Lord Torrington, a Peer
of the realm, when his Lordship was present in this
country.—(Hear, bear.) It was contrary to the prac-
tice of a great party to bring forward such a
motion as this, and then when the party
who brought it forward was perfectly aware
of the influence which it must of necessity have,
viz., the effect of a vote of censure upon the Government,
to defer it. It seemed simply planned in wanton
mischief, and he believed that the House would readily
respond to his opinion, that a motion, in which the cha-
racter of a Noble Lord was implicated, and which charged
him with gross and unnecessary cruelty, ought not to
be entertained, or if entertained, ought not to be deferred
to any future time for consideration.—(The Noble Lord,
who had been loudly and repeatedly cheered, sat down
amid loud applause.)
, Mr. DISRAELI said that he must remind the House
and the Noble Lord that this was no new question. They
should remember that it was a question which had now
been two years before the House, and that a Committee
bad expressly declared for the publication of those
papers, which were alike nesessary for the discussion of
this question and for the satisfaction of the country.—
(Hear, hear.) This was a matter of the greatest
public interest and importance, and yet the Noble
Lord desired them to legislate, in the absence of every
document, through the evidence of which alone could
they come at a right decision.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon.
Friend the Member for Inverness-shire had applied at
the Secretary's office, and had been told that the papers
for which he applied had been returned to Ceylon,
being necessary to be produced on the court-martial
upon Captain Watson.—(Hear, bear.) All that he
could obtain were copies of the documents, every one of
which ought to have been laid on the table of
the House a fortnight before. Now mark this. A
copy of the evidence taken before the commis.
siou could not be required by the court-
martial at Ceylon, because the authenticated copy
of the evidence would not be admissible before
the court.—(Hear, hear.) The court martial were
in possession of the original evidence.—(Hear, hear.)
What necessity, then, was there for sending back the'
copy ?—(Cheers.) The reason, therefore, given by the
Under-Secretary of State for sending back the copy was
not only extraordinary, but unparalleled, and under all
the circumstances, to say the least of it, most unsatis-
factory.—(Hear, hear.) And yet, under all these cir-
cumstances, the House having only just received the
evidence taken before a Committee which sat two years—
not yet being in possession of all the documents
submitted to the consideration of the Committee, and the
House haying just discovered a strange and suspicious cir-
cumstance with respect to the evidence taken by the Com-
mission sent out to Ceylon, the first Minister got up, and
assuming a tone of virtuous indignation appealed to the
House against what he called the unfair conduct of a
great party.—(Cheers.) Now had the Minister been in the
position which no doubt he wished to be, the House
would have heard,nothing of this complaint—(Cheers)—
for the Minister would have been the last man who could
wish to come to a conclusion upon a great judicial ques
tion of such importance as this in the absence
of the necessary documents, and after such
inexplicable conduct on the part of the
department whose policy was attacked.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought his Honourable Friend had taken that course
which good sense and feeling alike dictated, and he for
one had no objection to appeal to the verdict of the
country as to Ins conduct on this occasion.—(Cheers.)
.Sir GEORGE GREY said the House could scarcely
overlook the remarkable difference thar existed between
the arguments of the Honourable Gentleman the
Member for Inverness-shire and that of his friend, his
leader, and his protector on the occasion.—(A laugh.)
He (Sir George Grey) was in the House when the Hoe
Gentleman gave his notice in a clear and deliberate
manner, and he heard him distinctly state that he should
so submit it to the House on the 26th instant.
(Hear, hear.) And hnow, when his Noble Friend
at the head of the Government asks him whether he in.
tends to proceed with his motion on that day, the Hon.
Gentleman does not say that he is not pre-
pared to submit his charge to the House, but
he says he will not stand in the way of that im-
portant business which he holds to be the im-
perative duty of Ministers to bring before the
House.—(Hear, bear.) That was what the Honourable
Gentleman said himself, but what said his leader? Why
he let the real reason out; he said they wore not pre.
pared under present circumstances to bring the question
forward.—(Hear, hear.) So then the Hon. Gentleman
circulated a serious charge throughout the country
against noblemen and the Government, and now it
seemed it was not his intention to bring it for.
ward.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Nay, he might
go the length of saying that he dared not bring it
on.—(Oh, oh, and cheers.) Now, as it was ajudic
thisial
question they were to consider, he hoped at least
was not a specimen of the spirit in which the inquiry
would be opened and conducted.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK, being much interested in the wel-
fare of the colonies, listened to this discussion with
some degree of pain.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Inverness-shire had, from
the commencement of this transaction, expressed strong
opinions with regard to the conduct of Lord Torring-
ton, and with greet credit to himself he had oarried
the matter before a• Committee of the House, who
had taken two years to investigate it.—(Hear, hear.)
And now the Hon. Gentleman brought .a serious charge
against Lord Torrington, and had given a formal notice
of the day on which he proposed to go into it, but be-
cause the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
considered the notice a vote of censure on his Govern-
ment, which, if established, would destroy the confidence
of the House in the Administration, the Honourable
Gentleman declined to press his motion for the pre-
sent.—(Cries of " Hear.") The conclusion which
he deduced from all this was that the Government was
weak, and because of that weakness the interest of the
country and the colonies was to be sacrificed, and a
serious charge allowed" to hang over the head
of a Noble Lord recently', presiding over one of the
colonies of England.—(Hear, hear.) Now, was it fair
to delay this question?—was it fair to hold up Lord
Torrington to the scorn and indignation of the country
for an indefinite period under such a pretence as that
which had been assigned in favour of the delay?—(Hear,
hear.) The excuse put forth to justify this postpone-
ment was nothing less than .a pretence—a sham, and,
as it related to a distinct criminal charge, it would be dis-
graceful alike to the House and the Government if those
who proposed it were not pressed to go on with it at once.
But of all the persons who were wrong none ware more
so than the Honourable Member for Bucking-
hamshire—(Laughter)—who had shown he was
totally unacquainted with the whole matter, and
had brought forward some charge against the
Colonial-office wholly unconnected with the
matter in hand, and who fabrioated —if he might use the
expression without dishonour—an accusation whichof _th e
Hon. Member for Inverness-shire never thought
ad
(Laughter.) It was quite clear that this ware /2
sheeers.)
been adopted for party purposes.—(Loud
Let the people of this country understand
all their great interests—colonies, finance, and o
he
alnce
portent
matters of legislation—were all now in st ygen.
in consequence of the proceedings of some
htw y
tlemen opposite.—(Hear.) Of this he t o useglaho
htstrhge:cei
could be no doubt, that when
a Ensilleslouse, who
openly with a crime by a Member of t
said he had evidence in proof of his accusatiolne.incohmemneoent
justice—(Cheers)—ordinary.good toelirneg, P
good faith, and fair play requiredat theahtargthee.—re
should be no shrinking from
little of the
(Cheers.) He (Mr. Roebuck)
circumstances, but whatev.er,f
mu —t r
ya n...
_d
might be his opinion
as to the result of the charge i I came before a jury,
he thought the accuser was boundlas aonfhohniesst
he demanded it in the name);-elat:dt thought
himself t tit tthh ee
(" Hear" from the Protectioeists
Honourable Member who ropres
justify that charge.—(Cheers )
I it
hei no
r w' he
es
his.
accuser of this man should now make his charge, and.
if he could, endeavour to j
And let no man treat this thatmattmerolLomigehndttl.—
Let every one suppose for a
own case.—(gear.) The Noble Lord charged with
no less a crime than murder--(Hess)—he_ WAS charged
with hs,ing committed that murder when he repre-
sentedin Ceylon. If there were any great
crimes that was one.—( ),
He honoured a man for
this country
bringing a great criminal to Justice,, but be could not
say be honoured that individual who made a grievous

retitiedstidlllo.
accusation, and who afterwards, he might say, skulked hand, the states of Holland, sinee their freedom from
and
from it. Papal yoke, had grown in wealth and civilizat on,
Sir BENJAMIN HALL entirely concurred in all
that had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman; offered a direct control.; to Spain. Look to England. The
prosperityf and
(luibeearrtyhooafroEnseolta)tnladndweoreweodw.titnsgprotosperttlitle
and he would say, further, that he thought it utterly lt eo e
ao r :La tilt on
similar
.
cause.- In Switzerland the traveller could tell,
impossible for the Noble Lord at this head of the Go-
. by the very aspect of the people, which canton was
verntnent to pursue any other course than that which Roman Catholic and which Protestant. In Canada
he had adopted.-(Cheers.) It must be admitted by
impartial person that the motion of his Hen. Friend the and Protestant districts was most marked. In the
every the distinction between Roman Catholic districts
Member for Inverness-shire was nothing more nor le.s United States the same result prevailed. So in Mexico. so
than a vote of censure on the Government, and with that in Ireland-(Hear)--and in other places where the eornriank.,
hanging over his head how could the Noble Lord bring Catholic system existed. These examples were most st
so.
forward the financial arrangements of the Government? in ; but he did t mean or wish to attribute the cnotnr:ea
(Hear.) A governor of the colony and a peer of the quences which nowese in Roman Catholic countries
lat.
to the peculiarities of the creed of Rome.- t II
realm, as the lion. and Learned Member had stated, was
charged with the crime of murder. He would ask why tributed them to the Ecclesiastical system of Romeaer..)- (Hear.)
To no other cause creed he attribute the differences which
the lion. Member gave notice of such a motion, and then he had pointed out. These examples strongly proved that
allowed it to drop ? It would only be an act of fairness it was the duty of every Government who valued civil and
and justice to bring the subject before the House of L arde, religious liberty to see that the progress of the Romeo
where that Noble Lord, as well as the Noble Earl at the Catholic system be checked.-(Hear.) With respect te
head of the colonial department, might meet their ac- the introduction of the Papal bull into this country,' h d.-R;
eaters man to man and answer the charge made against not consider that any portion of a bull which contemplate
them, and where they might be enabled to give a fair purely spiritual objects ought to be legislated againsmt.e_ If
and legitimate account of the course of conduct they had purely spiritual matters were to be met, they muss: be :tile
a different way- not by legislation, but by renvoning me
pursued. by the diffusion ofsound and Scriptural educati .n.- (Hear.)
The matter then dropped.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL-ADJOURNED But the Papal movement had an aspect of
anda
‘,„,,„ DEBATE. very different kind. lie affirmed it vas an aggression,
an aggression upon those principles which ought to
Mr. Astuteness resumed the debate on the second be respected and kept sacred by every Roman Catholic.-
1 reading of this Bill. He said that the Right Ho- (Hear, hear.) The very basis of the compact of 1829 n see!
nourable Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home that the Pope was to have no temporal power ietel!,
Department, in moving the second reading of this country. He could not regard the introduction of the.PolL...al
Bill, had professed that he would clear the ground bull otherwise than as an infringement of that PriannedlPl the
for the House to come to a proper understanding (Hear, hear.) The sole object of the bull,introduce
the
canoe
on the subject.-(Hear, hear.) So far, however, establishment of a hierarch, was to
teferewithte
from clearing up any of the difficulties which sur- law, which was, in reality, intended to
tin r
temporal action of the laws of this country..-
rounded ey..-- (iler')
avowale arb'y)
rounded the Bill, the Right Hon. Baronet had kicked up ')'here needed no other proof than the distinct .
such a dust that he had made the ground much darker
and more difficult. Ile thought, however, that it would Cardinal Wiseman in his pastoral address. Cardinal Wise-
man stated-
be conceded that the opponents of the Bill had since that " All that we plead against is, the adoption in anY mea*
time cleared the ground of a great deal-in the sure of that preposterous cant of the aee, that the Secular
first place, they had cleared the ground of the Hon. power, as such, is bound by its duty to Go% to extend
Baronet himself for the apace of ten days, and since the toleration to all religions, irrespective of the ns©•
calyrctuhmai
restoration of himself and his colleagues they had cleared stances which may attach to each overate case. To e
every man has a right to adopt s
the ground of at least three-fourths of the Bill ;
they had cleared it of anything which could ever pleases is untrue; to say, also, that the tamtemporalthet'
props-.
never called upon to put obstacles in the,
have imparted any shadow of consistency to it.butviy it is perfectly
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had trueati o
that
religio
ns
Englishe r ro
lawrs , i s alsoprofesses untrue
to •
tolerate Us, and on
openly avowed that the opinions of his former life wereon
ourindefeasiblerights as the
_only
that ground, as well as
blunders and misconceptions, and that the present Bill true Church, while we meddle not with the claims of the
sell a religiousorcareed_ses.rbies
was founded on an entire change of his opinion. They sects about us, we take our stand."
had also exposed to the public view the paltry strings It was suggested it could be only in one of the two following
that pulled the puppet of intolerance and bigotry. forms :-
and shown how the same strings that pulled the puppet's would be
head up were ready to pull it down again. lie did tution, which would supply all wants, but wii, as a special
not wish to refer to the erratic fights of indi- necessarily complicated and voluminous, and,
the real and
" Either the Holy See must issue another and full consti-
viduals, but when he heard them accompanied rporonvisliotrecmoulodf nheecescsarily be terntooraarl,
once extended. to
hEunrctlanndlust
with the cheers of the House of Commons ahailLetheolic Church
t in
'be could scarcely forbear commenting upon them. its social position; and thisgprevision would be final. fast.
He referred to the speech of the lion. Baronet the Mem- in order to alopt this second and mere natural expi:eleee.t
bar for Tamworth, and as ho had heard that the lowest one condition was necessary, and that was, the Cathell
own;
Jacobins were the Gamaliels at whose feet the Hon. have a hierarchy. The canon law is inapplicable Iv
Baronet delighted to sit, he hoped that from that source vicars apostolic." it should
so far as compatible with
the lion. Member drew his matter as well as his manner, So, therefore, when Rome was considering how
er
._elig a
The first question to be decided was, whether the art of the accede to the application made to it, it decided on eel'
canon law.
Pope was an aggression, expressed in insulting language • hierarchy solely with the view of introducing the..
_eald give
secondly, whether it had been a temporal or a spiritual If that canon law was introduced, he asserted it w eith
aggression ; the dly, supposing it to be an aggression, was
there reasonable ground for the Popo to believe that it was the Court of Rome power to interfere in this countryt ei_ter-ii-ie
temporal matters.- (Hear, hear.) He assarted
wereee'plenty
an act offensive to the British Government, or one which, of the canon law was n o antiquated law.
on the contrary, was not only innocent but acceptable •;
fourthly, if the Pope had erred in the conclusion, whether of mo ern prows of this, and he need onlylrbeeferar te,trhhei:`,,J,ll,lla
Canonicum," published in 1831, at Rome, in wife
; hvit to make an
asserted of Reiffensteul that the Pope had a rsge_o
_, se vicar
the relations of the Government with the See of Rome were
ecclesiastical constitution for the whole world, :f d.
or were not such as to warrant that error- in a word, whether udging or
the error was with the country or with the Pope ; and fifthly, of Christ, had a supreme power, if necessary:, J et was
still assuming it to be an aggression, whether the House was disposing of all temporal goods of all Christians
confined
of opinion hat it was an act which called for such a vindi- clear, therefore, that the object of hierarchy
was
sa
legislature
cati nas that proposed by her Majesty's Government, and to temporal things. It was right, therefore, for the._s
on which
which was likely to lead to such a serious consummation. of the country in such a case to uphold the principles (gear.)
With regard to the first proposition he (Mr. Moore) freely the Emancipation Act was granted, and to introinterfere ectiee of
conceded that the act of the Pope was an aggression- The essential feature of the hierarchy was the
e,:"it ought
a spiritual aggression of a most decided character; the canon law, and as that was so ebjectionaoleemption of
but then he maintained that the Pope was dis- to be met by fitting legislation. Then thee
titles was undoubtedly an evasion of the Quee.?
aright' 1,1
tinctly in his right, as every man, native and
was the exclusive right of the Sovereign t . confte
alien, had a right to promulgate his opinions when suchl power of
opinions were tolerated by the State. In religion, which the Pope had, therefore, no right to assume 'done. Th.
lived upon persecution, aggression was an inevitable neces- conferring titles on British subjects as he had e indeed, to
city. Without aggressions the world would never have had main objection to the Government measure, "
an
'othing WO
Christianity any more than persecution. The question, then, any legislation at all on this question, was, that n
that times
was, could such aggression be opposed successfully by penal to be feared front the acts and spread' of Popery t_`...vr 0 itt
laws? That the Pope exercised spiritual authority over one- had changed-and that Popery was not the
assertion,ram it
a, it
third of the people of these kingdoms could not be denied. former ages. But ho felt surprised at this
actiany
That the Papal power was imperium in imperio, he would not was perfectly clear that Rome had only not been t unapt
' stop to dispute; but he would maintain that it would be as mischievous in all ages and places, because oldw fetter
reasonable to pass an Act of Parliament against the influence due restraint. It was said that the Bill wo 1.. they
of the moon on the tides as against the immaterial and religious liberty. They who argued so argued '
as
certain
powerful authority of the head of the Catholic Church. Ar- were the great advocates of that principle. lie was,atholiel
rogance had been imputed to this act of the Pope - spiritual that such views were not the views of Roman
did generally. Many large bodies of Roman Catholics
arrogance ; but the Turk on the banks of the Euphrates
entertain that view. In the .Rambler, a Roman Catiohioolif.
üblication, he found a statement, which, in hi° °Pe thin
not approach in the smallest degree to the arrogance of the
English people on the subject of religion. In tact if all the la
pride of all the fallen angels had entered into their souls, more truly represented the views of Roman Catholic be
they could not, in his (Mr. Moore's) opinion, exhibit a the statements made by Ilon. Members in that House• But.este
greater amount of arrogance in that respect ; and in proof of maintained that no man had a right to bring religious liefeae,
this he referred to the address of the prelates of the English into contact with civil liberty ; and he contended that iii,..;
Church to the Queen, wherein language the most illiberal, were the best defenders of religious liberty who took ee"..t
(led would flow from
inwhat had taken place.
the most labouredly and grossly insulting, had been em- that civil liberty was not infringed. He was satisfied 1!,_1,,
The rigni.
ployed in speaking of the religion of one-third of her Ma- g
•nci le to act upon this
jesty's subjects. What was the insult or aggression Pl. Pinstance was prinsipire obin
of one head of a Church to those of a whole Kier- With respect to the measure, he did not think it suthcie . te.
archy, whom the Catholics were condemned to pay for comprehensive. He thought a condemnation of the t u
lar
duction of the bull of the Pope ought to have been inserted
anathemising them. In spiritual aggression as well as
insult the Catholics were therefore the debtors of that naltYP
and a declarations prohibiting such an act, under pc _e
hierarchy ; and though they were obliged to imprison for the future. Believing, however, that the Bill had beers
their pride in their own hearts, it was not the less strong for introduced in a spirit of sincerity, ho was prepared to giVe I
biding its time, and certainly they would not forget their his support.
debt. The next question he should consider was, whether Mr. E. B. ROCHE said, that the Honourable Gentleman
this aggression was temporal or spiritual in its character. who had just sat clown, had served up same of the stale doe*
He asserted it was not the former] and he had not been able, trines of Exeter Hall.-( Hear, hear.) He had said that lrr
in all that was said or written on the subject, to discover a land was an example of the baneful effects of the Ronan
clear description how it became so, and still less a proof that Catholic religion, but he should rather say it was an exare-
such it was. The Noble Lord (the Member for London) had pie of the baneful effect that was growing up under their
made a long speech in inridiwn, quoting the words of Cardi- Protestant laws which were supported by Protestant baY°-
nal Wiseman's letter, " We govern," &c., as an invasion of nets. Ireland, instead of being a stigma upon the Bol'
the prerogative of the Sovereign; but with the exception of Catholic faith, was a disgrace to Protestants, because lea
' tu.
this wretched perversion of that ecclesiastical letter, that or was governed entirely in opposition to the 'feelings of tie.
any of the speeches which preceded or followed it did n t country. He held this measure to be an infringement of the
define that charge, or contain any evidence in support of it. Emancipation Act. The Act was the charter of Roman Ca
He (Mr. Moore) maintained that the whole case got up on tholic liberties, which they were attempting to invade. lira
e
this ground was disingenuous ; for all assumption of temporal Bill did invade those liberties, and therefore he would opPos:
authority on the part of the Pope had been over and over it. The first clause of this Bill, he asserted broadly. was '''
disclaimed. In truth the entire argument of the Noble Lord great an oppositions to the endowment of the peahen
bill
and those who supported him in that respect was the same as Church as either , f the two clauses expunged. This Bill WI
had been used by the old ladies of this come ry at any time a retrograde movement, and going back to the legislation e.
within the last hundred years ; and nothing more or less past ages. During the debates respecting the Catholic enattneL
than what the Noble Lord himself had so often scorned and pation, in 1829, the Duke of Weeington stated that in 17.''e
derided at any time within the last quarter of a century. He a law was passed in Ireland to prohibit any Catholic pel!hee
(Mr. Moore), however, looked upon the best reply to the from assuming titles ; but it was repealed in 1793' 3
Noble Lord's arguments-if such they could be called -on effect of the Bill was found so intolerant and unjust that 1_
this point, to be the statement of the Noble Lord the Mem- was repealed, and up to 1.29 the priests and prelates wro:
her for Bath, respecting the organisation of the spiritual body tree to assume any titles they pleased. In 18a9 e Catduat
designat d W esleyans in this country. The fact was, and it lice consented, and he thought very improperly, to aban
0,
was well known in England, that Cardinal Ni iseman no their liberties to a certain extent, and not to assume
more meant that he should govern Middlesex temporally places bolos is to Protestsnt bishops. .
eow 0,0%7;0
than that he should govern the whole country. The Hon. called u ,on to go hack to the legislation of 1793. That NN
be
and Learned Member for Oxford had th own overb-,ard that legislating upon a principle of which they
aught There
co.rse assertion of temporal power, and taken refuge in a ashamed, in the middle of the nineteenth century.
, ~„., were
fine-drawn distinction intelligible to no one but himself; and was another reason for him to oppose the Bill. re'Llee it roe
yet for such a distinction the whole country was to be torn attempting to impose an Act which they called Ireland,ci it
in pieces. The Hon. Member for the University of Uxrord pensive Act; but as it could not be extended to _sent
urged that the Church of Rome claimed authority over every was a delusion upon the people at large. If GoY",ll'thea
baptised Christian. But was not this claim made by every eaten 'ed this Bill to Ireland, he asked them ue e
weetur-
Church ? The Hon. and Learned Member for the city of they were prepared to carry et tut? Would they: nog,
Oxford might say, no; but an Hon. Member for the Uni- to appeal to a Catholic jury? They had b.i_, di,.
titleser:
varsity of Oxford said, yes; and he said moreover that and dissatisfaction enough in Ire and, and li e' law'
every bishop in the Established Church claimed this jurisdic- satisfaction was increased by maintaining bad week
Lion. Thus, then, were the bishops of the Episcopal Church upon the statute-book. This Bill would go into thee told
in this country, the bishops of the ace esiastical Church in list, wet they were therefore enc, uraging Oa
_eon,
Scotland, and the bishops of the garrison Church in Ireland spirit of dissatisfaction. Upon them would rest the reeVe,
claiming all the dissenters, members of she Church of sibility.- (Hear.) A bull similar to that introduced into 'fee
Scotland, and Roman Catholics; but did the Dissenters, country had formerly been sent to Sydney, and whenastrios
the Presbyterians, or the Roman Catholics care an atom Protestant bishopt complained, Lord Lotrd Stanley,nse 1
c d r twalnywaffair of
for this claim. The Roman Catholics, he could speak for Colonial SrnernCreenatfy,_ d
How then could they turn round now ane
them, certainly protested against the bishops ef the Esta- the Gho
evebull really interfered with the Queen's supremacy
blished Church putting their hands in their pockets; but, as e
years of discretion believed it. He believed that there,
regards their claims to their souls, they regarded it with the 8h
ye
didt not believe that any man in this country, arrived at
most perfect indifference. The argument of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Oxford, that the hierarchy would be d it
to this spirit of intolerance and bigotry welee
wthaes In this country a p'uritanical spirit of bigotry, which, in
many cases, had been got up by Protestant bishops, an,..ee
followed by the canon law, and that under the canon lawi
the Pope might depose the Sovereign and dissolvethea Ie- was bowing
made them now attack this unfortunate Dr. Wiseman Te
glance of the subject, was as absurd as that which. allegedi.
this country. Now they were going to de another *Wired
that absolution would be denied to all who oasect Archbishop''' of thing, to extend it to Scotland, where no one admitt
the Oueen's supremacy. There was to be a clause intr°.l;
antics, in the same manner as was done by the,
hierarchyre gardto the iean i an
had
drdbineand the canon duced to meet the case of the Episcopalian biehePia 1
0. e uences heel Scotland, who were in the same position as Dr. Melia.° ill
inil e author
Ireland iii ir
lhere .
asebscoluationealthough Ireland, and why not meet the case of the bishops "•,,,.
law was in force there ; but none of the
occurred ;while as regarded the refusal
might
say,
devoted to land. If they did not, it would be monstrous iejest,lee_
the people of that country were.
hcaanonglaw or the bull in They did things in Ireland, which, it done in this couniared:
forof trhonetoSriciecoa,nrdi law.
their clergy, no one cared for the
ar,
i afraid to proceed would make the very hair of their heads to stand o‘qoa
Coma Domini, and no one was,above
t truth, he (Mr. Moore) That was justice to Ireland. They said to them,
-sore
against the priests. In boises who
woule not get a Irish Papists, you shall have nothing. We will placedTiow
believed that the only suitor
the clergy was the British chains upon you." Ile wanted to have that exeleica eke
verdict in an Irish court against ainceseded with the present Bill. they ex ,mpted bishops in Scotland and proposed to ndi the
Government in case they )
'res irituel power, the Attorney- the very same thing penal in Ireland. He believloa
to
As regarded the question of P
more than was exercised by bishops 13,11 was introduced by the Noble Lord and egten ,bed
General sail it s o
with the insult the House Ireland,for the of bolsteringthe Estab'lD eel
• and that . . purpose -
in partibus p washv,
fora state of thiegs so described by Church in Ireland. That Church was based cn gnu a e good
had nothing to do. l ett TIA. - said
of the Crown, the country was to be tern was a badge of conquest, and he thought the it wss
the first law officer
uestion was, whether the aggression, reason ter voting against the Bill altogether.
support the
to pieces. The next
qtof t a Pope, was ine which he had b •people that Billnecessary, to uestiou
if such it was, on the par 3 some
~.,_sraihir q ,
would be otlensive to the Government, or, Protestant Church in England. , Doll t
reason to conceive wo
tie itself and not unac , b letufne
then said,'
stant
on the other hand, n
in -"enthe Noble Lord at the headcePta le was mooted, and respectable old genticoeloy the rest;
..
On this point . . of the admit the Catholics. or you will Is' dinen wee
Doverem.
pads a confession so very humiliating that Church l h " an amen _
..‘ei
.
ga toget er. At that tittle ,be Duke of "
nment had m
Inot it
shout( press on the notice of the proposed similar to tit, present Bill, but t it eve re
he ( etr. e' oore)
'e Lord had been accused ofas aware b duces"
House. The Nob making Va- lington did not support it, and said he w
but Ws in
.
oa
the subject at issue •
in 1834 and in 1845 security to the Established Church, Eameciliatiee
rious statements on
ts directly contrary to his present course of ac- ti plunder those who were opposed to . the ed to t"-
-statemen
considerable hesit •"P" of
t°'
after cons atton the Noble Lord ad- Act. Earl Malmesbury, who had been
lion ; and
accounting for his conduct this Act vils a dis-
mitted them, . on occasion by Emancipation Act, said, now that that
s of A .
the had now changed ins mind. lie (Mr. Moore) he would not consent to the introduction of clauseceritY
„eying that whato ee .1,0
however,appealed co •
confidently even to those Honourable qualifying character, as he considered they g were l'e
a
Members who werel most opposed to him, whether this an- to the Church. lie (Mr. Roche) had sbowne_ancipetso _
ewer would be be das satisfactor, y other than (bpi°. opinions of men who had been opposed to the eene.ever h' is
matic. The lion. Member then referred to the letter of the Act. He believed that the present Bill wouedn;
__ ia ten;
Hon. Member for South Nottinghamshire, and concluded by been introduced but for the spread of TrUtarta.le,'.ie dange
et
contending that the Pope had reasonable grounds to suppose country. But the danger of ,the l'ope was t
no
~"!.. dog
that his measure, if it did not obtain the sanction, would at which alarmed the Noble Lord; it was that
.ostatee've, there,
least command the silence of her Majesty's Government. from within the Church itself, snit which was le,hee'y ei,d all
But if there had been any misconception on this point in the he said, to the very brink of the precipice. , ''',f. whom he
mind of the Pope, the state of the relations between the heard a great deal of the Rev. Mr. Bennetlsrai -
d they must
British Cabinet and the Papal Court were such as to render wished to speak with great respect. Ito wasbere not others
it perfectly excusable. There was no country in the world screw him down to the rubric; but wre t
e But he would
where such a monstrous fiction was maintained as that the they must screw up to it? - (Hear, beano/ co.,
t that in the
bead of the religion of one•thiri of the inhabitants-which call the atten, ion of the Noble Lord to,
hth el al, Trinffe
religion was admitted by the State - should be ignored by the Chapel Royal, St. James's, and the ...eat) ee wfly. in wh,c
law. But it was not unparalleled in the history of England ; College, Dublin, the rubric was violated by to" -se
1 Deember thee
for ages after France had cast out the English power, the the egnmunion table was placed. The, -Janne," PraYert
Sovereigns of England claimed the title of Kings of France read extracts from " Stevens's Bo k et
Ages the rubryto
also. At the present moment Hon. Members distinctly for the purpose of showing that in malty
had
not one aina,l?,
swore that the Pope had no spiritual a,,thority in this realm, was either omitted or altered. They
ba
full of the Moat
when the contrary was well known to them to be the fact. edition of their prayer book which was not own
thee thasst
And an internecine struggle was almost provoked for the glaring inaccuracies. NOW, he
mad
Isibis Roy al Higluice.
maintenance ef a falsehood so arrogant. The Hon. Member there was a prayer book patronised
ny _
_r
en bisbept,
then referred to the debate on the Bill for diplomatic rela- Prince Albert, by three archbishops a
.nd
tbyeficfheopei
itoytr.
lions with Rome, and asserted that the Noble Lord at the in which it was stated, that neitheari h
ITI 'Trinity College. )°. _
head of the Government was laughing in the face of the St. James's. nor in the Ceapeldito.y
'tertrl acYcording to W.
House when he made his statement in respect of the Papal lin, could the communion be
1 innathamtlsfact, there svas not, ."°:°.
aggression. It was not the division of the c untry into die- ruble or the statute law;
okntthat was not full of inaccuraiii.
cases that made the aggression, but it was the people them- edition of their Pms or
I 1 aeainst roceeding with his e)!,,,
t wise
selves who had fancied the aggression. It was nut a proper Ile warned the Seble .ore , , p
d toes mast be prepared to nice . _
of
vindication of the law to pass enactments that were not to If Mini,ters persevetrere,and._ .
(Hear, hear.) The wit
he
be carried into effect, or were to be carried into effect in ,ne every opposition in . I
met their religion to be interfered weee"..
part of the kingdom and not in the other. This con se was Ireland would not
Plied been true to their religion, note !ties
more degrading to our national honour than anything else For centuries theyru
ion, and they would be true to it still..
ttee_
that could be imagined. - (Hear.) standing persecution,
blessings the people possessed Ives the:r.;`,,
per, sure (who was indistinctly heard at first) said, of the ;greatest
dear tothem, d ' terference ,P.!
this`measure had been treated, during the debate, as said,
it • gion-it was very an any in „...., but e
religion was not only disgraceful to theinsent ee , „‘,ar,
was but of little consequence to this country, and us if it that
and a disgrace in the eyes of the world. - hear'
hay
merely referred to a speculative opinion. He was sa isiied
stign7 They would be slaves, and worse than slaves' 1• e to
this was a mistake. Wherever the system of Rome pre- hear.
such I no
ted to laws_ lie (Mr. Roche) bad n had ero.
veiled, the liberty and prosperity of a nation dclined-
submite the irritation which the proposed measure
oltase
wherever that system was checked, liberty and prosperity incredas.
i Ireland but he warned Ministers that the c Lei
flourished.- (Hear, hear.) Look to the varions states own- duce it . ; 'on in tjv
to create rebel!). ~ Is
ble they were taking was the way
ing the sway of Rome. Spain had sunk to a contempti
tr (Hear hear)—and he feared it they Pete
"'
cowl y— ,
rank among nation 3 wader the sway of Rome. an th© other