The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-07 00:00:00

have, as of yule, a Parliatnent in England, and a Pattie •
meta in Ireland ; hut :it should be as up to 1782, when
the whole actual Legislative power lay in the oce, and all
that the other had to do was to formally obey. Such
was the case in the co-existent Parliaments of Fiance,
Burgundy, and Brittany; and, more, in those mockeries
of the name with which the house of Austria amused the
people of Bohemia and the Tyrol. In all these cases there
was no such thing as an independent legislature; all the
power lay in the hands of the crown ; and the P trliament
was a mere pageant—a mockery—or means of rivetting
the fetters of the conquered.—(Hear, hear.) lii fact, if
history had one lesson which stood out more emphatically
than another, it was that which, indeed, reason would
strike out for itself, the impossibility of two independent
legislatures co-existing under the same executive head.
It was not easy to get at the precise plan of repeal con-
templated by the Learned Member for Dublin. ale
lead not himself developed it, and it was only to be
guessed at by some partial revelations. Among a
number of statements of the Learned Gentleman on
this head which he had read in the public journals,
the most precise plan which he had read was one proposing
a kind of fed. ral union of a local legislature sitting—say
in Dublin—with an Imperial legislature in London.—
(" Hear," from Mr. O'Connell.) But did the Leal ned
G ntleinan deceive himself, that by this plan he evaded the
difficulties which attached to the two independent legisla-
tures of which he had been speaking? Supposing, as in
the latter case, that there should spring tip some difference
of opinion or conduct between the two Legislatures, the
domestic and the imperial, who was to decide between
them ? Where was the paramount authority to declare,
you are right, and you wrong ; you therefore muse. viol t,
&c. ; for on the supposition of the Learned Gentleman,
they were both to be independent.—(Hear.) It might,
perhaps, be said that the Crown might interfere and re
concile their differences, as it did when differences oc-
curred between the House of Lords and the House of Com-
mons. No doubt the Crown did possess a constitutional
power, which in practice had prevented collisions between
the hereditary and the representative branches of the Le-
gislature; it could dissolve the one,—it could add to the
numbers of the other. In point of fact, they all knew
that both expedients were had recourse to in the reign of
Anne, in 1710 and 1712 ; in the one instance—the Ailes.
bury affair—the Queen dissolved the House of Commons ;
in the other,—the question of the peace of Utrecht,—
she created a number of Peers. But all this merely showed
that the executive possessed the means of preventing a
collision between two branches of one and the same Le-
eislature, and not that the same remedy would apply to a
collison between two distinct and independent Legisla-
tures.—(Hear, hear.) The federal union of a domestic
and an imperial Legislature, then, did not meet the d ffi-
culty, which indeed the greatest federal republic in the
world was at this moment exhibiting on a large scale.—
(Hear.) That great con`ederation, in which the confe-
derating parties all unanimously, at the memorable con-
vention at which the genius of Washington presided, and
the most able statesmen of the age assisted, agreed to that
form of union contemplated by the Learned Gentleman;
and yet, atter more than half a century's trial, know no
other arbiter between a domestic and an imperial Legisla-
ture but physical force.—(Hear, hear.) Was not he,
therefore, warranted in asset ting that the Learned Gen-
tleman's scheme of repeal would be much worse for Ire-
land and the empire than total separation? That separa-
tion the Learned Gentleman declared he would con-
sider to be a' grievous national calamity. So would
he (Mr. Macaulay) ; hut not half so much so as the
success of the Learned Gentleman's plan of repeal.—
(Hear.) If, on a fair trial, it were found that the two
countries cannot be made to co-exist in the same empire,
—cannot be made to harmoniously combine in one course
of mutual support and prosperity, in God's name let them
be wholly separated.—(Cheers.) He, for one, could not
wish to see them, like those strange twin beings lately
exhibited in this city, connected by an unnatural tie,
which made each the plague of the existence of the other
—each in the other's way ; more slow of motion, because
they had more legs than either would have had under a
happier state of being ; more helpless because they had
more hands; partaking of no common aliment, and sym-
pathizing only in disease and hclplessnese.—(Cheers.)
The Learned Gentleman told them last night that he, and
he alone, stood between them and civil war. Admitted.
Was that an argument for the repeal of the Union ? 0.•,
what was more germane to the matter, did the list of
grievances on which the Learned Gentleman wrung the
changes, tell in favour of that repeal ? He was not a man
to speak lightly of the grievances of Ireland ; he trusted
to see them soon remedied, so tar as remedy was within
the gift of the Legislature ; but he had yet to learn that
the repeal of the Union was a remedy for grievances which
existed long before the Union took place, and which, be
would confidently venture to add, a repeal of that Union
would aggravate.—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Gentle-
man in his post hoc and propter hoc distinctions seemed
to reverse the well known logic of the Godwin-sands
versus Tenterden•steeple. The steeple was the cause of
the sands, quoth the logici ins, because it existed before ;
but the Learned Gentleman reverses the reasoning, and
says, bec 'use the Union took place long after the existence
of certain grievances, therefore it roust be the cause of
them.•—(Hear, and laughter.) Some of the grievances
which he thus affiliated to the act of Union were not,
moreover, peculiar to Ireland, or any form of Govern-
ment. The removal of many of thein—undeserved sine-
curists, political judges, corrupt magistrates, for example,
was a great object of the Reform Bill, and surely the re-
moval of the remaining Irish ones dial not, in all fairness,
require a domestic Legislature. Besides, see to what the
argument tended ; if local abuses in Ireland required a
local Legislature to remedy them, why should not every
other part of the empire, also complaining of grievances,
be allowed its domestic legislature ? They had all heard
much of late years, even within his own short Parlia-
mentary career, respecting abuses under the Welch
Judges, but he never heard any advocate of a remedy for
those abuses propose that that remedy should be an inde-
pendent domestic Legislature. In the same way he never
beard it said that a domestic Legislature should be esta-
blished in Cornwall because there were several local
grievances in that county which required a remedy.—
(Hear.) Nay, to come nearer his own political
jlaorne
Leeds, he could assure the House that a large meo!ity of
his constituents complained loudly and with great justice
of the grievances imposed by its corporation ; but not a
hint had been thrown out to him that the best remedy
would be the establishing a nice little federal independent
domestic legislature in the west riding of Yorkshire.—
" Hear," and laughter.) And yet, if the Learnt d. Gen-
tleman's project was good for anything, it applied to
Wales, and Cornwall, and Yorkshire, and every county
in England, as much as to Dublin.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
would go further,—perhaps the Learned Gentleman
would say much further, and maintain that the clearest
ground which could be guessed at as the basis of his repeal
scheme would apply cc fortiori to a separation of the
legislatures of the north and south of Ireland. If a
rooted difference of religion and its worst conse-
quences would justify the separation of the English
and Irish legislatures, the same difference, and, still
more, the same baleful consequences, would warrant the
separation of Protestant Ulster from Catholic Munster.
—(Hear.) lf, as the Learned Gentleman had often
declared, it was impossible fur a Catholic prosecutor or
prosecuted to obtain even the semblance of justice from
an Orange juryman, and that such a state of things would
be a justification of a repeal of the legislative Union be-
tween England and Ireland (though the fact was noto-
rious no such conduct would, under any circumstances, be
manifested towards British subjects in England)—why,
then, the same reasoning, that only a domestic Legislature
could romedy a domestic grievance, would, in a tenfold
degree, apply in favour of one domestic Legislature in
Dublin, and another in Derry, and every other large town
in the north of Ireland.—(Hear.) Mr. Macaulay pro-
ceeded next to say that he persuaded himself that he had
sufficiently, by implication, vindicated himself from ti e
charge of inconsistency urged against him by the Hon.
Member for Linceln. It was not quite fair to rote a
speech delivered in a discussion on the Reform Bill on
quite a different question. Every such expression
.should
be construed by the occasion on which it was. delivered,
lainkde ittheonHlyo.n.tbheettewrhtohlaenfoareperaocrti‘sveid.sdwnrniteolf•
words depended on their application—that nothing was;
easier than to write a theory on either side of a subject
—either all panegyric or vituperation--and. that the wis-
NA.Ioe Itiriabienr knew
that
For example, were he to defend rhistlewood in the tone
wis-
dom or folly depended solely on the, application.--( Hear.)
and language which he should, at least ought to, employ,
—were he the advocate of a Lord William Russell, or an
Algernon Sydney, it would be
.plain he was employing
words, to say the least, unapportel.y. The whole, he re-
peated, depended on the application and the time, the
appositeness, and by these he ought in fairness to have
it anisb(delusion—(Hear)—
o ) n
Be (Ile
believed,ar)
also,nay
been judged by the Hon. Member for Lincoln. Mr. Ma-
caulay proceeded next to say that he believed the project of
a repeal
that more,
if were practicable, there is no part of the ent-
, ire it would be so fatally ruinous to as Ireland itself.—
• (Hear, hear.) The expressions which he used on the oc-
casion alluded to by the Hon. Member fur Lincoln, and
of
to the
be Union
inpo to s y
b iei
t a. great_c h
which he did not then shrink from, did impure much, per-
haps 9 10ths of the grievances and ills which afflicted the
country previous to the passing of the Reform Bill, to the
misgovernment consequent upon a withholding that bene-

4
facial measure. But it should be recollected, in aPPIS,
his language to the case of Ireland, that he did not tb.
fore ague that the breaches of the law to which te
consequences of misgovernment led should go uortai'in),d.v
When he said that in his mind the burnings and
destr
of
lion of agricultural produce, which disgraced s°lllja
portions of England, were mainly owing to the the on
nisters turning a deaf ear to the people's cry for Ref' .0
he did not at the same time contend that the ineeadint
and the lawless destroyers of social order should novo
hanged or punished.—(Hear.) Then, though h.e
earnestly deplored the probable results of reJec'zfies
the Reform Bill, he did not assert that the outrs'es
and excesses committed under the name of tbat
stsl
jection should pass with impunity—that for the orit be
rioters, for example, the sword of justice should not:4,
unsheathed.--(Hear.) But he would defend the eon toe
envy of his language on that and the present oecasi,anoll.
of the mouth of the Learned Member for Dublin b'tat-bei
Teat Learned Gentleman told them yesterday, that
might goad by their harsh policy, some of the less Pru-eltf
less thinking multitude into a general war against pn:-0
and order, but that he would be found in the ranks at the
executive in resisting the outrages, and puralshingoa,
guilty.—([[ear.) The Learned Gentleman, it waa
said that he would thus join their ranks as the /o°,o/
two great crib—that while he aided them he would
and execrate them as the parent source of all the
—(Hear)—but still he would be found in their WO 0
(Hear, hear.) If, therefore, the Learned Gradesli,,
eiceined himself as not inconsistent when aiding in chef, tl
ing the lawless consequences of grievances which be al
called upon them to remedy, he (Mr. Macaulay) a
-em.
least as little obnoxious to the charge of the Learned ;[leaa
bet. for Lincoln. Both he and the Learned Gentle-0.
agreed in ascribing to misgovernment the real ISltead,
tage of the grievances which had led, or tnight died
to acts inconsistent with social order, and
agreed that while the grievances should be rerat",aTat
the violation of the law should be punished•
only difference • between them was one of tinie
';that was, when the law should be enforced against its rt sta
greasors. He agreed with the Learned Gentlernsaleme
Ireland presented many grievances which dernande"dp
best attention of the Legislature, with a view w a reap
—(Hear.) He fur one would do his best to redress"'
grievances.—(Hear, hear.) He would go furthers of
declare he would nut belong for a moment to any 6°Y,e, t
ment to which that redress would be a matter of t1°,0",-ess
sary delay.—(Cheers.) But because he was thus re
nea
redress the grievances of Ireland, was he in the meta t,
to see the law outraged—nay, despised by a furious
misguided multitude ? Talk of the distribution of ("re,
property in a country in which no property at this th°W.d
was respected, and be told that to enforce the law ag.„310
the robber, and the murderer, and the incendiary, De
drive an injured people into civil war !—(Cheers.) de
those people who talk thus wildly recollect the presentol
plore.ble state of Ireland ? Do they recollect eh
county alone, according to the authority of the Right is
sl
Irish Secretary, not less than 60 murders, or atteteP
murder, had been perpetrated in comparatively 3 est
weeks, and not less than 600 burglaries, or attesorbit
burglary ?—( Hear, hear.) Why, this is far wore tl to
civil war.—(Hear.) A lass of life and property tia,",,a!
the sacking of three or four towns. Civil war jetfoil
he declared soleu.n!y he would rather live in the Ivi"°,o
many civil wars he had read of this moment than i°5.,;00
parts of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Compare the it-e 0
under the Pretender at Carttele, or Preston. and who `"
pre'
not prefer a residence in either at the time of the
tender, to one in several counties in Ireland at th° gets 4
moment?—(Hear.) And yet to endeavour to put 4". id
to such a disgraceful state of anarchy and strife, wli-itsf
" brutally" coerce Ireland into a civil war. Wl'Y',„ol
"'
civil war has long since begun, and, if not checked, oe
end in the ruin of the empire.—(Cheers.) In the votbe
of the remarks with which he had thus troubled iii
House, he had avoided all allusion to those irritating "';014
cennected with the vituperations which the l'ea4;a4
Member for Dublin had, more than once, thought it ;JO/
to pour out against the party now in office. That 10(tl
will spare itself the task of reproaching him with 0° red
to say the least, savouring of ingratitude. The Lear
Gentleman may be assured his abuse is not a bit g°ool
stinging to those against whoni it is directed theta 001
which was so lavishly bestowed upon it by those vir'oo(l
so long withheld from him and his Catholic bee std
their political rights, and who were now allied wide efef
in hostility against those very persons who had bee'?
the earnest and uncompromising advocates of those bib
--(Hear, hear.) He may be assured that the .0 ill
minded men, who braved the " No Popery" crY,g,'
its fury, are not likely to be scared by all t,9;ers.)
vet ich has raised a repeal of the Union.--(CP-10
"As attached to that party," continued Mr. t fot
caulay, " known by the name of the Whigs, it is 13- es'
me to speak of their claims upon the favour of 3,710 A,
lightened public. History will do them justicee't.tby
hear)—and show, among other things not unwar:do(rj
commendation, that they sacrificed all that is coastit
dear to party spirit, no less than to personal ambiti;Poill
favour of the cause of religious laberty—(Cheers)la o'4
show that in 1807 they left office, because they Oa, ilea"
knock off the political fetters of ilattii Catholic lee re
subjects ; and that, for the same sacred cause, 0,Y,,„e
mained upwards of twenty years out of office, t swat
snore than once within their grasp, braving at the Or
time the frowns of the Court and the hisses of the Otbd
tude.—(Great cheering.) Yes, for the Cathoheareiri
renounced power and place, without obtaining if,uhert
the poor reward of a fleeting popularity.---(1)Zo
These were inen of the party in those days of "
pery" triumph, who might, by uttering one little gel!
against the Catholics,—nay, in some places, by ‘110"
nut saying a little word in favour of them, have he;,,,gi
turned by numerous constituencies to a seat in the
coo
lature ; but who, sooner than utter that little We'r"A
ci kit
trary to their well-founded convictions of right a° foil
tire, were not only exCluiled from Parliament,
all those places of honour and trust which are egveilet
every high-minded English gentleman.—(Hear.) 00
Whigs retired from public life, but their honour w y tl
sullied.—(Cheers.) The clamour, therefore, scbiceari'
Learned Member for Dublin is endeavouring t 0 onet
against Earl Grey's Government cannot be of much rrt,hitol'
compared with that which Earl Grey has already Wit'be
in order to place the Learned Gentleman where srt
Though a comparatively young member of the Willt"inr.ll'
I think I can take it upon me to speak their senti°,w„got
this head. I therefore undertake to tell the '-"gibic
Gentleman that the saute spirit and moral courage oafl'
sustained the Whigs when out of office in their e onfi
with bad laws, will sustain them in office in their 'Lest.
wilt the enemies of good laws.—(Continued e`t
They were not deterred by cl amour from making'
Learned Gentleman not less than a British subjecy,e
may be assured they will never suffer him to be u'°
(Deafening cheers, which lasted at least a °►iaUtrbd
here as a member of a numerous and flatlr°/
community who have conceived that the sereieeacoooli
people is not incompatible with the service of the tit
and who have sent me here, to use the words co thebst'il
y.,
summons, ' to advise his Majesty upon certain weig
a,100,,
urgent affairs concerning the state and delelle see'
kingdom.' Its this capacity, and in the perfolo
this duty, I ant prepared to vote with the addres4i
in answer to his Majesty's speech, particularly t"
of it which pledges Parliament to preserve the leg tIPP'
Union between England and Ireland inviolate,---a„,pie
on which depends the wellbeing of the British e'."
—(Loud cheers.) . tbe
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped he should experiell'e, ter,
dulgence of the House for a few moments, as he
Gimetnetdlettrenevhialsd
ofsa id
Ireland that
t he
et
(ills.he
to confine himself to explanation. The Riga[ ad,
so far ft oat that being the fact, he had been tout of
of
Hon. Members for having made no mention at al s
question of the Union throughout his speech. tithe/
Mr. SHEIL said that there was a practical aad
(muunting to contradiction, in the course pursti, eo,
Member foe Leeds aMr. Macaulay) ; for while "sseibidi
into a most elaborate discussion on the Union, „di;
assumes is unpremeditated, he supports an addre!tieji
leg i
sOl
atn
tin O'Connell) li
0b.3( ;.;
recommends the extinction of all argument, put,
debate, strikes Ireland dumb, and claps a pacil°f ber,
lips, though it never can stop time throbbings ° Olt/
and indignant heart.—(Hear, hear, hear-) r
strange proceeding on the part of the Member I°,l oil •
to discuss the question himself, and to deny eigueo,lo:t
the right to entertain it—to recommend the sullogets
the HAIR ms Corpus Act, in order to commit atatoo.
in Ireland to incarceration, while he himself Wa:itiett:,,
•
luxuriates in so wide a field of discursive expo, ear,
0
( Hear, hear.) One could, however, have des 00,t
having taken the subject in hand, he bad touch b Jr
topics which appear to us not irrelevant-413%, fp!
vetted to the fiscal and moral evils of abientee,
t, of,e
plained the causes of the mi-ery and destiturturromei
land, had exhibited the advantages of °uboritig,
dependence, and shown us time benefits of aieS.
English Members overwhelm on Irish qua: at:l'oi,
jority of Irish Members in this Houae.4lllV,
t' g
stead of doing so, he delights us with an eneho la'
derived frotn the Siamese twins.-e-(Cheers ati.,sear iff
But while the Hon. Gentleman thus .gas;iiiya f
-pirit of fanciful illustration, he was uncorlseiddietill
ing us with an image of our calamitous e°114„....t7at
ire indeed linked in an unfortunate brotherh°..if
vitagether with no ligature through which the ,"