The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-04 00:00:00

for Oldham. lie admitted that at the time rerared to he

had not given that Hon. Gentleman a sufficient answer,
and, amongst other reasons, he was unable to do so, from
the vagueness of the terms in which the lion. Member's
motion was couched, and from the nature of the speech
with which he introduced it. He tilked of showing that
the poor paid towards the taxes forty times as much as the
rich, and dealt in other statements equally unfounded in
truth. To such statements he confessed he was not
prepared to give an answer ; and he coofessed his having
omitted to do so occasioned him very little regret, when
he remembered thit his Right Hon. Friend had done so
with so much effect. The Hon. Gentleman had accused

him o` to run down his predecessors ; really
he thought the House would hear him out in saying that
that was a most unfounded charge.—(llear, hear.) It

had never been his pratiee to underrate tl:c efforts of those
who had gone before him, and he trusted that the House
wou'd acquit him of any disposition, or petty feeling of

rivalry.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL contended that the probate duty did
fall with extreme severity up at the poorer and middling

classes, and when the Hon. Member for Whitehaven ae-
ou,ed others of i:•noranee, he should have taken care to
inform himself of the difference between lezacy and pro-

bate duty.
Mr. WARRE denied that the operation of the tax
now under consideration bore any resemblance to the ex-

emptions enjoyed by the French NoPesse under the old
regime, as had been alleged by the lion. Member for Mid-
dlesex. Between the two there did no exist the slightest

analogy. The lion. Gentleman opposite urged upon his
Majesty's Ministers the duty of retrenchment and econo-
my, forgetting the difficulty which now attached to eco-
nomy, for Ministers, placed as they were, coming in
nearly at the conclusion of a period, when economy was
or ought to have been for years the prevailing principle.
Mr. LENNARD said that he should have supported
the motion of the Hon. Member for Oldham had he not

heard the Right Hon. Gentleman near him admit the
force of his arguments, and declare that they were pre-
par. d to make reductions.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the original motion
For Mr. Cobhett's resolutions. :26
Majority

On re-entering the gallery, we found
Lord ALTHORP replying to a question of Mr. M.
Attwood's (the latter Hon. Gentleman having, as we
understood, asked the Noble Lord whether ka was pre-
pared to give the names of the Hon. Members whom he
intended to be on his proposed Committees of Inquiry on
the State of Trade and Agriculture); the Noble Lord said,

that he was not prepared to give the names ; but that the
Committees, as far as it was possible, should consist of
persons entertaining different opinions, so as that the
feeling of the House should be properly represented.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD thought that it would he ex-
tremely satisfactory to the House, if the names were stated
before they went into a debate on the motion.
Lord ALTHORP begged to state, that the shipping
interest would he included in the inquiry about trade.
Mr. BARING did not know what the Noble Lord
meant by having all sorts of gentlemen on his proposed
Committee ; it looked, however, something like throwing
a tub to the whale. If the Noble Lord's motion was
carried, the effect would be a great, unmanageable Com-
mittee ; and if the Noble Lord's intention was to waste
away the session, he was taking the best course, in bring-
ing forward his present absurd proposition. He thought
that the motion should not be brought forward at the late
hour of the night it was likely to be brought forward, and
asked the Noble Lord whether he would not postpone his
motion until Monday next ?
Lord ALTHORP said, that from the state of the order-
book, he could not have given a longer notice of his mo-
tion, and objected to postponing it.
Mr. F. YOUNG said that he still reserved himself as
to his notice of motion on the state of the shipping trade.
The conversation here dropped; it being understood
that Lord Althorp's motion was to take its course, and
come on after the army estimates.
The SPEAKER the❑ left the chair, and the House
went into a Committee of supply.
ARMY ESTIMATES.

Mr. ELLICE shortly recapitulated the statements tha
had been lately made by his Right Hon. predecessor. The
increase in the land forces was caused by the state of Ire-
land and of the West India colonies, since is the former
country it was thought absolutely necessary to increase the
forces to the amount of upwards of 3,000 men. and also
it was considered necessary to make the same increase of
force in the colonies mentioned. The increase altogether
was between six and seven thousand men. He regretted
that circumstances, over which the Government had no
control, required this increase. He begged to: mention
that the reduction made in the forces of England was
4,000 men, and he hoped that when the Honourable
Member far Middlesex proposed further reductiona,he would
he specific as to the way they might be effected. Some re-
trenchments had been made by his predecessors, and
he assured the Committee that others were in pro-
gress, and that all the reductions that would be found
practicable, compatible with the public service, would be
effected. He should also take care that ample information
on details should be given to the House, so that it might
he able to judge of the improvements contemplated. Many
complaints had been made against the higher branches of
the service, hut he thought these complaints were invi-
dious, and that they referred rather to the exceptio❑ than
to the rule. The Government was prepared to make every
siring that could be made, and the, emoluments and re-
wards of General Officers would be referred to a Com-
mittee up stairs. However this was not to be done
through any neglect or disrespect towards those officers,
for he considered their claims would be better considered in
that Committee than by the whole House. With respect to
clothing the army, it would be seen that some of the regi-
ments were to be clothed by public contract. It would
not be necessary for him to enter into the details of the
little differences between the estimates of the present year
and of the past. lie would merely again observe, that
those differences were caused by an increase of troops in
Irel end and in the Colonies, and by a decrease in England.
He would not detain the House longer, but at once pro-
pose " That a sum not exceeding 3,168,2161. 14s. Id.
be voted for defraying the charges of the land forces for
the service of the United Kingdom and our po-seesions
abroad, except fer the troops employed in the country
possessed by the East India Company, for the year begin-
ning the 31st of March, 1833, and ending the 31st of
March, 1834."
The votes being put,
Mr. HUME said that the House, in ♦oting these sup-
plies, had first to consider the services which these forces
hid to perform ; and secondly, whether the circumstances
of the country were such as to warrant such a large ex-
penditure. He would shortly state the grounds he had
for objecting to the keeping up of so large an establish-
ment. In the vote now proposed, there were various min-
pot taut items to be considered, in which considerable re-
ductions might be made. The expense of the proposed
89,000 formed but a part of the vote; there was an ex-
traordinary allowance of 60,000/. for the recruiting ser-
vice, for the depot at Chatham, and a few other items—
cost 63,009/., &c. ; and, under the head contingencies,
there was an expense altogether of 110,0001. In all these
items there was room for very considerable reductions. In
the first place, however, he had a strong objection to some
part of the forces composing this 89,000 men. If we
look at the number of the Life Guards, as compared with
their numbers at former periods of peace, we should find
their number, and the consequent expense of them, consi-
derably increased ; anti in tee cavalry, which was a most
expensive class of soldiery, a similir increase had taken
place. There ought to be a great saving in both these
expenses. At present the Guards were the only corps in
the world, or at any rate in England, to whom sums of
money were given, without any account being demanded
from them of their appropriation. If the House would
not consent to reduction in the SUM given, he hoped that
at any rate they would remove this anomaly, by putting
the same check and control upon the expenditure of these
troops as over the infantry and other soldiery. He did
not mean to say but that their expenditure might be very
unexceptionably ne enaied, and indeed he had heard as
much, but while there was any mystery observed in these de-
tails, while the public were kept in the dark as to how their
money is disposed of, there would always be a lurking
jealousy on their parts, which ought not to be the case in
any part of the public expenditure. If the House would
not consent to reduce the numbers of the army, it would
be well at least to reduce the numbers of this class of
troops. The number of regiments had been increased to
99; but each corps, though the number of its privates
had been considerable, still retained the number of its
officers; why was this? Why was the expense of
officers, constituting at least one-third of the whole, to be
continued the same in each otherwise reduced battalion ?
Surely it was not right that the same number of officers
should be kept up, when a battalion is composed of only
400, as it had when the number was 600 or 1,000.—
(Hear, hear.) lie would, therefore, without saying a
word about reducing the number of the whole, propose
that the 99 regiments should be concentrated into 84, and
that the numbers of officers should undergo a cor-
responding reduction. In the recruiting and contin-
gencies departments great savings might be effected.
Indeed, as to the former expense (60,0001.) be saw
very little necessity for it, or indeed, none at all ; for in
the present unfortunate times the army bad no need