The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 7, 1851.

deric Christian: here the lode had been opened 474 feet
—regular, kindly, and producing stones of lead ore; and
from the 36 fm. level 3 tons had been raised, and ap-
pearances were favourable for a rich course of ore in
depth. The ores on hand were valued at 3501. An im-
mense lode of barytes had been discovered in the Clara
Mine of very superior quality, traceable on surface 450
fathoms, and 24 ft. wide. There is a market there for
large quantities; and it has been calculated by Prof.
Maehrlen that by working it, in conjunction with lead
from Fredric Christian, snould it be produced in quan-
tity, the manufacture of white lead would realise a profit
of 30 per cent. Whatever may be the results, arrange-
ments were making for the sale of the barytes. No ex-
pense is now incurred for a London management, and all
the funds strictly applied to mining labour. At the special general meeting of the Imperial Bra-
zilian Mining Company, held yesterday, for the election
of an auditor, Mr. Bloxland was elected by a majority
of 61 above Mr. Cole.

THE ARMY AND NAVY.
General Sir John Gardiner, K.C.8., the colonelcy of the
VACANT(Fr IChoe Unitd ServiceLoNELecy.—B)- Gazettethede ceaosof tohs d
fiLieay.)
Lieutenant
6th Regiment has become vacant.
THE NEW CAMBRIDGE SURTOUT.—The scarlet surtout
r eos
Officers
underlis
ai
eisneartapl
ofoorn
stihdee
ruasiei
oonf tonic o r s
the 800 fa
rt hd e aorfm
Gy
Whitehall.
REDUCTION OF THE FORCES IN CANADA.--WO un-
derstand that the Commander-in-Chief, as well as the
officers in command of the troops in the Canadas, have
acquiesced in the suggestion of two military stations only
being retained in that command—Kingston and Quebec.
THE TWELFTH LANCERS.--.Orders have been issued
to alter the appointments of this corps to suit the double-
barrelled fusil, with which they aro to be armed. The
strength of the corps is to be altered to about 90.
Colonel Chatterton has giren notice that on the 12th
June ho will ask the Secretary-at-War if he has made,
or intends to make, any arrangement to relieve officers of
cavalry from the payment fur forage for their chargers
kept for the public service; and also if he has made, or
intends to make, any arrangement to grant the officers
commanding cavalry regiments the allowance called
" command money," which officers commanding infantry
regiments have so long enjoyed.
SETTLEMENT OF OFFICERS IN THE COLONIES.—A
memorandum has just been issued from the Horse
Guards which contains some deviations from the terms
of settlement in the colonies hitherto in vogue. For in-
stance, the clause which gave to officers on half-pay, re-
siding in the colony where they proposed to setrle, all
the privileges of military and naval settlers, without re-
ferring to this country for testimonials, has been alto-
gether omitted. A clause has at the same time been
aided, fixing the upset price of land, at the Cape of Good
Hope, at 2s. per acre in the old colony, and 4a. per acre
in the district of Natal.
Captain Elliott, of the 2d West India Regiment, has
succeeded Captain Elwyn, of the Royal Artillery, as
Major of Brigade at Berbadoes, Captain Elwyn having
become Military Secretary to the Lieutenant-General
commanding the troops.
Lieutenant Campbell, 34th Foot, has succeeded Lieu-
tenant Mockler, 2d West India Regiment, as Fort-Ad-
jutant at Grenada, the latter officer taking the place of
Lieutenant Davies at Demerara.
Lieutenant H. C. Roberts, of the 41st Madras Native
Infantry, is appointed an Aide-de-Camp to Lieutenant-
General Sir Richard Armstrong, commanding the troops
at Madras.
Lieutenant Griffith, of the 46% Foot, is Adjutant at
Fort Hare, Cape Colony.
Lieutenant G. St. J. Crofton, of the Royal Engineers,
has been appointed an Aide-de-Camp to Sir George An-
derson, the Governor of Ceylon.
Lieutenant Slater, 3d West India Regiment, has suc-
ceeded Lieutenant Lutman, of the same corps, as garrison
adjutant at Sierra Leone.
Captain Battye, 23d Royal Welsh Fusiliers, has va-
cared his appointment as aide-de camp to the Major-
General Wynyard, commanding the troops in New South

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Staff Surgeon S. Teevae, ar.D., has succeeded Staff-
Surgeon Sinclair on the IDubli❑ recruiting staff.
Captain Johnson, of the compass department at the
Admiralty, has been ordered to select a compass at
Woolwich for the purpose of placing it among other
nautical instruments at the Great Exhibition.

.RIAL OF THE COUNT AND
COUNTESS BOCARME.
COURT OF ASSIZES OF MONS.—FOURTH DAY
The President took bis seat at half-past nine. Mdme.
de Bocarine was first introduced. She appeared per-
fectly calm, her veil being thrown off her face towards the
public, which prevented the spectators from easily seeing
her features. M. de Bocarn was next brought in; he
appeared fatigued, and his eyes seemed red as if be had
been weeping.
The President ordered M. lleugbaert to be again
called in, and interrogated him on various points of the
investgation which he had instituted at the chateau.
H. Hubert, Procureur du Roi at Tourney, was next
examined. He narrated the circumstances connected
with his first visit to Bitremont immediately after the
murder, and confirmed the account given of the appear-
ance of the place by M. Heugbaert. He obtained but
little information from the servants, who seemed un-
willing to avow that they knew anything; the fille de
chambre, however, admitted that she had heard cries for
help the evening before.
The President—You found the shirt of Gustave ? Yes.
The President—Usher, show the shirt which lies there
to the witness.
The witness declared that he recognised it perfectly.
The President—Usher, show it to the prisoners.
The usher carried it to M. de Bocarme, who said, " I
never took any notice of the shirt." The usher then pre-
sented it to Mme. de Beearrei, who hid her face in her
handkerchief and sobbed violently,
The paletot of the deceased was next recognised by
the male prisoner, and both these objects were handed
up to the jury.
The witness went on with his testimony, and entered
into details respecting the feeling of the prisoners rela-
tive to Gustave's intended marriage. The prisoners, he
said, had evidently done everything possible to induce
Gustave to go often to Bitremont. Amongst the papers
of the deceased was found anonymous letters anti other
papers, and a lease of M. do Bacarrnes property.
The President—Show the lease and letters to the pri-
soners.
The prisoners declared that they recognised the lease
and some of the letters, but not the anonymous ono which
speaks ill of Gustave's intended bride.
The witness—Amongst Gustave's papers was also
found a power of attorney to enable him to manage the
property of M. and Mme, de Bocarer6. I asked them
tar what purpose this paper had been drawn up, and the
male prisoner replied that it was because he had intended
to go with his wife into Germany, and so avoid being
present at the marriage.
The President, to the male prisoner—What explana-
tions do you give respecting your conduct on the an-
nouncement of Gustave's marriage ?—That marriage
certainly displeased me, and I determined to go with my
wife into Germany. It was for that reason I gave my
brother-in-law the power of attorney to act for me during
my absence.
Lydie Fougnies, was that journey really resolved on?
—lt was only a vague idea.
M. Francma Ryckman, Substitute of the Procureur du
Roi, gave evidence respecting the state of the Salle-1-
manger, &c. The Jute d'lnstruction pointed out to him,
he said, the bite which the male prisoner had in his right
hand, and the contusions on the other. When inter-
rogated on the point, the male prisoner hesitated,
and then said that ho might have been bitten
by Gustave or by a dog. When the premises
were searched, Gustave's pocket-book, contain-
ing papers of no importance and a bond for 15.000 f., was
found in Mme. de Becarme's secretary. Witness se-
cured the clothes which Gustave had worn, and it was
in the pocket of the paletot that was found the next day
the glass stopper of a phial.
Did you remark on the wall any marks of blood?—I
saw some marks on the buffet, but when the Procureur
du Roi first saw the marks on the wall I was no'
present.

long time, and witness was often obliged to interfere in
his official capacity.
M. Olivier Cherquefosse, notary of Tourney, after
making some objection to give evidence, on the ground
that he had been for twenty years the confidential adviser
of the Fougnies family, which objection, however, was
overruled, said that M. and Mme. de Bocarmd, father
and mother of the male prisoner, had directed him to
watch over them—not, however, that they feared that
they would commit a crime, but because there was a good
deal of disorder in their affairs.
The President—What do you know about the death
of Gustave?-4 or Mme. &cum& Ido not know
which, told me that Gustave had dropped down dead,
and that he had been carried into a chamber.
Did not M. de Bocarme tell you that he had died of
apoplexy ?—No, sir.
Did you observe any wound on the hands of M. de
Bocarmd?—Yes, sir; and he told me that he possibly
might have been bitten by Gustave at the moment when
he was rendering him assistance.
In reply to further questions from the President, the
deponent said that he went to the Château of Bitre-
mont unexpectedly on the 21st of November; that
both the prisoners appeared very calm, and he was
very far from anticipating the heavy charge which was
to be brought against them. He had not seen any
stains of blood, but he had seen marks which
appeared to have been made by some fatty sub-
stance, and he well remembered that the floor was
being scrubbed, and that M. de Bocarme directed
the operation. He had heard much talk of the intended
marriage of Gustave, and he had even been applied to
to draw up a contract, " and I did it for him imme-
diately, in order that he might not think I acted under
the influence of the chateau." He had never been re-
quested to prevent the marriage. He knew that Mine.
de Bocarnei did not approve of the marriage, as she did
not like the lady; and he thought that self-interest
formed a main ground of the objections.
M. Cherquefosse here expressed a wish to remove an
impression which might be felt from the wording of the
indictment, that he had sought to prevent the marriage
as the friend of the family at the chateau.
The President assured him that no imputation of the
kind could possibly attach to him, that his morality and
probity were too well known for anything of the kind to
be even thought of.
In reply to a question from the President, as to what
kind of man M. de Bocarmii was, he replied that
there was in him at the same time a mixture of the
man and the savage. The greatest delicacy was fre-
quently remarked in him; as an instance, he would
say that he had been frequently seen, when in com-
pany, to hold his bat before his face when be blew
his nose.—(Laughter.) He evinced the greatest affec-
tion for his children, although he would sometimes beat
them for not learning their lessons. He had several
times expressed to him (the deponent) the great confi-
dence he felt in him.
The President—What sum does M. de Bocarme owe
you?-62,000f., but that sum has not been all spent by
him, as part was paid to M. de Bocarme, senior.
Have you ever head anything to the disadvantage of
Madlle. Dudzeele, the intended wife of Gustave ?
Never, sir.
M. Leopold Dugnolle, notary at Baugniez, was next
examined, but his deposition presented nothing of
interest.
Mine. Michel, a grocer at Brussels, deposed that she
had furnished several articles to the family. She had
written to obtain payment, but had received no answer
to her letter. She then went to Burg. The prisoner
told her he would call on her at Brussels. Ho did so,
and then gave her a false address at Bruges.
The President—Prisoner, what have you to say to this
evidence?--I did so to gain time.
Several other witnesses were examined, but their evi-
dence merely wont to prove that the prisoner was in
their debt, and that they could not obtain payment.
The sitting was then adjourned.
FIFTH DAY.
The President took his seat at half-past nine, and im-
mediately inquired whether M. de la Barre, the editor of
the Nation, a Brussels paper, was present.
On that gentleman presenting himself,
The President ordered him to quit the Court, on the
ground that his remarks on the proceedings of the day
before were offensive to the Court.
M. de la Barre accordingly retired, when the pri-
soners wore introduced, and the hearing of evidence re-
sumed.
The first witness called was Justine Thibault, a nur-
sery maid in the service of Count Bocarme. She de-
posed that on the day of the crime she was ordered
not to take down the children for the dessert as usual,
and to give them their supper in the nursery; arid
that as she went down to the kitchen after putting
them to bed, she heard M. Gustave cry out in the
dining-room as if some one was strangling him. She
was listening at the door, when Madame de Bo-
carme came out of the dining-room, and did so again as
soon as her mistress had got into the kitchen. The
next day, M. de Bocarme instructed her, in case of any
inquiry, to say that Gustave cried out, "Help, Hippo.
lyre, help!"
The President (to Mine. do Bocarme) Lydia
Fougnies, you hear the witness. She says you did not
leave the dining-room till after the cries uttered by the
victim.—She is mistaken, most certainly. Had I been
in the room when he cried " Pardon, pardon!" I would
say so. That makes no difference.
The President asked the witness if she persisted in her
statement; and on her answering affirmatively,
Mine. de Bocarme remarked that the girl was too
frightened to remember exactly how things had oc-
curred, bat that she did not think the witness bore her
any
The President—Did not Madame de Bocarme cry
out, "Help! Gustave is ill?"—Yes, sir; while she was
going up stairs, where she washed herself with eau de
Cologne.

After tho body had been removed to the servant's
chamber, did not Madame do Bocarme give orders fur
one of the Count's shirts to be put on it?—Yes, sir.
Did you milk the cows on the evening of the crime?—
Yes, sir.

You saw your mistress and the cook in the washhoute
whea you were carrying the milk?—Yes, sir.
Hero the President asked Mme de Bocarmo, whether
she heard the witness, and M. Toussaint, one of her
counsel, made a gesture as if he wished to speak, but
was prevented by the Court. The witness explained
that when Mme. de Bocartn6 asked her what she should
say if examined, sho declared she would tell the truth,
and say that M. Gustave had cried out " Hippolyte,
pardon!" whatever the consequences might be to her-
self.

Charlotte Monchardet, who had been in the prisoners'
service, deposed to the same effect as the last witness,
with little or no variation or addition. The counsel for
the defence pointed out some discrepancies between her
present deposition and that given before the examining
magistrates, but the witness persisted in asserting that
she had said nothing but the truth.
Lonisa Maes, the cook, gave evidence in Flemish, to
the effect that she saw the dead body of Gustave ia the
cining-room when his clothes were removed. She had
heard his cries. When the Countess went into the kitchen
for the first time the cries had ceased. She did not go to
assist. Gustave with the other domestics on hearing him cry
out, because she did no: know why ho cried. She had
only been a few da)s in the service of Count de
Bocarrne, and she had demanded to leave. Her wages
had been paid. She bad washed certain parts of the
diningeroote by order of the Countess, who pointed out
the parts she wished to be washed. What she washed
did not resemble the vemiting of a person, but she had
not taken particular notice. There was a smell of vine-
gar in the dining-room, but of nothing else. She was
ordered to wash the trousers of Gustave and the coat of
the Count, and did so.
Vanden Berghe was in the service of the Count and
Countess de Bocarrni rn the 20th November. He was
sent on that day with a letter for Mme. Duclzeele, at
Grandme:z. Gustave, on that day, had entered
the stables, and complimented him on the state of
his horses. Gustave then said that he intended
to see Mme. Dudz)ele and her daughter the next
day. It was the Countess who told him to prepare
the tilbury of Gustave. When he was ready and had
lighted the lantern, ho cried several times at the door of
the vestibule—" Are you not ready?" Then be went
towards the dining-room to ask where the tilbury was to
be taken, as there were several issues. The count
closed the door hastily, and cried, " Yes, yes, yes!"
but did not allow him to enter. It was evening, and
was reining heavily. He saw the body lying near
the door 01 the dining room, and received orders to re-
move it. The count and countess were not weeping, but
they cried out. He went with the Count and Countess
to the bed-room. The Countess addressed words of
affection to her husband, and amongst other things said,
" Ale i mon Dieu i IVinoche I" The Count was
troubled, agitated, not like himself—he spoke with
difficulty. The oorpso was not very warm when wit-
nees removed it. The Count asked witness how Gus-
tave bad died—he was weeping then. It was the Coun-
tess who had told him to remove the body; she had also
told him to warm it with warm water, and two or three
glases of vinegar. She had also told him to put
vsinegar into his mouth, but he had not done so, because
ho thought it perfectly useless to put vinegar
into a dead man's mouth. The mouth of de-
ceased was black. Witness saw the Count sick, and took
warm water to him. On going dowa to the dining-room
he saw that the body had been washed, and found a koife.
The Counteas ordered him to burn the cravat and waist-
coat of deceased, bat ho did not do so, and gave them
to her. A physician was called in; he said that Gus-
tave was dead, Ho had understood that the physi-
cian was called in to give assistance. He had burned
the crutches of deceased by order of the Coun-
tess; she had said that she could not bear to see
them. He had seen deceased's watch in the dining-
room, and had given it with others things to the Coun-
tess; she did not say that she could not bear the sight of
them. The Count told him not to talk of the affair.
That made witness suspect something wrong. Witness
helped to wash the floor with a brush, warm water, and
soap; it was the first time such a thing had been done.
In the course of the night which ensued, the Count
caused papers to be burned. Witness had noticed that
there was blood on deceased's cheek, and that there was
a mark on the Count's lager. The Count had not said
of whet deceased had died.
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THE GOLD DUST ROBBERT.-WINCHESTER, JUNE
6.—The formal taking and reading of the evidence pro-
duced at the various examinations of William Plamplin,
who stands committed on a charge of stealing 7,0001. worth
of gold dust, a portion of a consignment of specie from Cali-
fornia, brought by the Great Western, was commenced this
morning in the magistrates' private room at the Town-ball,
there being present Mr. Charles Seagrim, the mayor, Mr.
Bu'pat, Mr. Faithfull, and Mr. Knight. The prisoner was
brought from the county gaol by Mr. Sheppard, the chief
officer of the City police, and listened to the proceedings with
apparent nnconcern. The Mayor bound over Bent, an officer
of the Metropolitan Police, to prosecute, and the witnesses
who had attended, in a recognizance of 20/. each, to appear
at the next General Quarter Sessions, the prisoner being re-
manded back to the county gaol, where the absent witnesses
could attend on Monday. On the application of Mr. Crom-
bio a summons was granted for the witness Jennings-
IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 6.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
Lord BEAUMONT presented a petition from certain
veterinary surgeons, praying that they might be ex-
empted from serving on juries.
THE INDIAN FIVE PER CENT. LOAN.
The Earl of ELLENBOROLTGII asked if the closure
of the five per cent. loan in India had been by orders
from the local authorities or from the Home Govern-
ment?
Lord BROUGHTON said that the Government of
India bad represented that it would be desirable that the
loan should be closed, and thereupon the Home Govern-
ment had issued a notice that the loan should be closed,
and it had been closed on the sth April.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH would have been
better pleased had it been closed by order of the local
authorities.

LAW OF MARRIAGES.
The Duke of ARGYLL presented a petition from
Australia, praying for the introduction of a Bill extend..
ing to the colonies the Act rendering legal marriages
celebrated in Ireland by a Presbyterian clergyman. As
the law at present stood marriages celebrated by Pres-
byterian clergymen in the colonies were, under certain
circumstances, illegal. Such marriages so celebrated in
Ireland were legal, and the colonists prayed the ex-
tension of that Act to the colonies. The Court of
Sydney had decided that Presbyterian marriages
in the colony were invalid, and therefore the Presbyte-
rians were placed in a most painfel condition. There
had been a remedial Act passed in the colony, but that
only referred to Presbyterians of the Established Church
of Scotland. Thus the law was left in a most uncertain
state. In giving their judgment the judges expressed a
hope that the question would be settled by legislation.
In the Colonial Assembly a law had been passed
rendering legal all marriages which had been thus
contracted, but enacting nothing as to the future.
He was sorry to say that this question had become mixed
up with religious matters. The Attorney-General of
the colony was a Roman Catholic, and the people of the
colony had taken up the idea that he was doing all he
could to invalidate Presbyterian marriages, and the
Governor of the colony had declared that he
would not like to afford any aid to those
who did not observe the requirements of the law.
Now the law was in such an uncertain state, that it
was almost impossible to comply with it, and compliance
with it depended not upon the parties married, but
upon the ministers celebrating the marriage.
Earl GREY observed that the law in their several
colonies was that which existed in England at the time
those colonies were founded. Here a difficulty had
arisen in consequence of the Presbyterian clergyman
having neglected, in accordance with the regulations of
the Act, to ask of the parties, or one of them, if they
wore Presbyterians; acid to remedy the evil consequences
that had arisen the Attorney-General introduced a Bill,
which was similar to that proposed a few years ago by
the Noble and Learned Lord opposite (Lord Lyndhurst).
The Attorney-General for the colony, however, stated
that the whole marriage law of the colony was extremely
unsatisfactory, and required revision, and that in another
session it would be brought under the consideration of
the Legislative Council. The Governor, in a speech
at the close of the session, did undoubtedly say that he
would bo most reluctant to give bis assent to any pro-
visional measure of the kind. He (Earl Grey) thought
that he was fully justified in making that
statement, for nothing could be more unsatis-
factory than to allow these marriages to be contracted in
an irregular and illegal manner, and then to pass a Bill
for the purpose of legalising them. The law should be
put upon a permanent footing as to marriages contracted
in a proper and legitimate manner. He felt very little
doubt but that in another year the subject would be con-
sidered by the Legislative Council, and the law of mar-
riage would be placed upon a sound and proper footing.
He held it, then, to be most irregular fur the Imperial
Parliament to interfere at all in the matter. There was
not one of their colonies in which the form of marriage
was not defined by a colonial Act. This was the case in
New South Wales. Parliament had dealt with the' sub-
ject in this country in a manner generally thought satis-
factory. But on passing the Act of 1835 they most
properly excluded any reference to the colonies, for the
simple reason that the machinery for carrying out the
principles of that Act did not exist in the colonies--
he referred principally to the poor-law unions. It
was the established maxim in this country that all
marriages celebrated in a foreign country, according to
the law of that country, was held gool all over the
world. Therefore, if the colonial legislature took the
subject into their consideration, which he had no doubt
they would do, the marriages so contracted under the
colonial law would be held as valid here, and therefore
the interference of the Imperial Parliament was not
required.
Lord CAMPBELL said, notwithstanding what ho had
heard from his Noble Friend, he must say he thought
that the petition presented by the Noble Duke was a
most reasonable one, and he hoped it would be complied
with. The Presbyterians in the colonies were now
placed in a situation of great embarrassment, and were
subject to great grievances. What the Noble Earl had
stated as to tee law in the newly-established colonies
was quite correct with one exception. The Noble Earl
supposed that all statutes in force in this country at the
time of the establishment of a colony were imported
into the newly-established colony. Not so; it was only
such statutes as were supposed to bo applicable to an
infant community, No inconvenience was felt respect-
ing the marriage law until the recent decision come to in
the colony. It'sras supposed before the introduction of
Lord Hardwick's Aot that the canon law of England was
recognised all over the world, and that there was no need
of any mass priest sir other person to be present at those
marriages, except the contracting parties themselves and
theesecessary witnesses. He hoped, with some modifica-
tions, thatsuch would remain as the law. Since the decision
of his Lordship in the case of " The Queen v. Mills," the
intervention of a priest episcopally ordained was con-
sidered absolutely necessary to give validity to the mar-
riage. He supposed that a priest of the Roman Catho-
lic or of the Greek Church would bo held to be quite
sufficient; while the Presbyterian minister—even the
Moderator of the Church of Scotland—would be
consi-
dered as a mere layman. There ought to be one mar-
, riage law for tho whole of the colonies, restoring the old
canon law, wh
deemed the only thing necessary.
The Duke of ARGYLL then presented a petition
from the Synod of the United Presbyterian Church in
Edinburgh, containing a similar prayer as in the former
petition, and in favour of a declaratory Act being
passed, whereby the decision come to in the case of
" The Queen u. could not be extended to the
colonies.
Earl GREY repeated his opinion that the subject
could not be satisfactorily handled by the Imperial Par-
liament. It seemed to him far better to leave the mat-
ter with the colonies, who had shown such a desire to
follow the example set them in the Act of 1835.
CONVICTS IN NEW SOUTH WALES.
Lord MONTEAGLE thou rose, pursuant to notice,
to present a petition from New South Wales on the sub-
ject of transportation. He said that it was of the first
importance that the interests of these petitioners should
be immediately attended to by Parliament. The peti-
tion with which he had been entrusted realised many of
the alarms which ho had ventured to state on a former
occasion existed upon this subject. It prayed their
Lordships to put an end to the present system of trans-
portation. He believed, that unless some remedy was
soon applied to the grievances complained of, they were
likely to be engaged in a struggle of force rather than
of reason with these colonists. Whilst he denied the
colonists any right to reject altogether the power of
this country in carrying out the ancient law of the land
in respect to transportation as a secondary punishment,
he also stated that it was their duty so to exercise that
power as to produce the least possible evil, if any, to
the colonists; and, if possible, to convert the measure of
transportation itself to ono fur their ultimate benefit.
The petition wasllitit of a committee of an association
in New B°utli'Males fur preventing the revival
of transportatii There wore appended to that
petition a great umber of names of importance and
wealth. They stated, in the first place, the resolution
they have entered Mao to abide by the judgment which
the legislators of the colony would pronounce; that the
council bad adopted as a final conclusion that no more
convicts should be brought over there, and they claimed
the full performance of the promise which had been
given to them by the Government of this country; they
stated that it was most unjust, and a violation of the
promise entered ittto with them, that even any of the
new provinces should be made available for the reception
of convicts. Now that he (Lord blonteagle) considered
was a most unreasonable demand. He, however, thought
it was indispensable, if they wished to retain any part
of Australia for the reception of their convicts, that they
should put an erif to the abuses which now existed.
He wished to call their attention to the character of the
complaints made by these petitioners. In the first
place, with a melancholy and sad uniformity they all
attributed to the highest authority in this country the
commission of a breach of faith towards them. The
language with which they addressed the Crown upon
this subject was extremely strong, and they addressed
his Noble Friend in terms of which he was wholly un-
deservine. But at the same time he thought that the
Right Ifonourabls Gentleman somewhat merited the
charge of breach of faith, by not acting up to the
language he bad used, both in his dispatches and in
his speeches. But they went further than the com-
plaint of breach of faith; and they used language at
public meetings, composed partly of magistrates, sheriffs,
and municipal authorities, to this effect. In reference to
Van Diemen's Land, they said that the system of send-
ing convicts there would have ceased long ago if they
had prevented them in the first instance from landing.
When they were strong enough they ought to rely solely
upon their own strength, for it was only by their weak-
ness that the resolutions of the Government were carried
out; that there could be no doubt the best way of getting
rid of the convicts was to prevent their landing. Here
it appears thera Were three cheers given at the metipg,

end three more immediately after the first had been duly
responded to. The speaker further said it was idle to peti-
tion any more on the subject—let us take the law into our
own hands, and defeat the plans of the Government, as the
Cape folks had done. He (Lord Monteagla) said it
would not do to let this question sleep, or to believe it
possible that it could rest where it was at present. Un-
less the Government adopted a new system altogether
in respect to these convicts they must be prepared to
encounter a most formidable resistance from the colo-
nists. He believed that if they adopted that principle
upon which they had acted many years they would be
able to reconcile the colonists to their system—a system
which was based upon the moral welfare of the convicts,
as well as upon the best interests of the colonists them-
selves. They ought to make the labour of these con-
victs profitable to the colony. He had done his duty by
laying the petition before them, and he might mention
that whilst only 525 signatures could be procured in fa-
vour of transportation in the colony, 36,000 had been
obtained against it.
Earl GREY said he had had no opportunity of reed-
ing the petition in question, and not having done so he
was not prepared for the speech of his Noble Friend
He had expected that his Noble Friend would have con-
fined himself to the prayer of the petition; but he found
that his Noble Friend did not concur in it. By the Act
of last year it was provided, that upon the petition of
the inhabitants of the northern part of New South
Wales, that northern portion should be formed into a
district colony. A few days ago a petition was received
from the governor, signed, he believed, by nearly all the
resident landowners in that district, praying the Crown
to exercise that power and divide the colony, and also to
give that part of the colony the advantage of convict
labour; and he observed by a newspaper report that one
of the grounds upon which they asked this was, that
they were contributing very largely to the revenue of
the whole colony, while the legislature at Sydney en-
tirely neglected their interests, and refused them the ad-
vantage of the police, which they absolutely required
for their protection and safety, in order to present col-
lisions with the aborigines. It was the complaint of
Victoria over again. The real object of the petition pre-
sented by his Noble Friend was to prevent that power
of dividing the colony from being exercised, and to
prevent the sheep farmers of Northern Australia from
availing themselves of convict labour, which they
found so greatly to their interest to do. He was happy
to hear that his Noble Friend did not concur in the
prayer of the petition. The governor in sending it over
stated that he had only just received it, and had not had
time to accompany it with the information which he
thought necessary to enable the Government properly to
consider it, and he requested the home Government to
take no step upon it until further information should be
sent home. Such a message from Sir C. Fitzroy was
conclusive, and nothing would be done in the matter
until further official information had been received. He
certainly was not prepared to say that the power of Par-
liament ought to be exercised in deference to the com-
plaints of these oolonist,, unless they had been shown to
be well founded, nor could he admit that because Sydney
did not require convict labour the rest of the colony
should be deprived of the advantages to be derived from
it. While he thought they must continue to send con-
victs to those colonies, he held it to be the bounden
and solemn duty of the Government and Par-
liament to take all measures iti their power
for making it as advantageous as possible to the
colony to receive them. What his Noble Friend had
stated with respect to convict labour was perfectly
just; but he was surprised that he should have
forgotten that these principles had been laid down
over and over again in the dispatches sent to Sir W.
Denison. Public improvements were in progress which
he believed would, at no very distant period, alter very
materially the views of the colonists with respect to this
question. On the last arrival of a convict-ship at Ho-
bart Town, he understood that 100 ticket-of-leave men
were hired before landing, and he, therefore, trusted that
the case was not quite so bad as his Noble Friend
imagined. He would not further occupy the House,
having so fully entered into the question on a late oc-
casion.

• PETITIONS.
The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition from
Bath against the admission of the Jews to Parliament.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from
Aberdeen against Papal aggression; also a petition from
the proprietors of salmon fisheries on the Dee and the
Don against the Salmon Fisheries Bill, and expressed a
hope that his Noble Friend (the Duke of Argyll) would
withdraw his Bill during the present session, and bring
it on at the beginning of the next, and hear what parties
had to say against it in the meantime.
The Duke of ARGYLL said he had introduced this
Bill last session, with the exception of one clause, which
was new, and he had given notice that he would endea-
vour to press it forward. He had now gone too far to
withdraw the Bill, on which it was certainly his inten-
tion to take the opinion of the House. In the present
state of the House, however, it would be impossible to do
so. He proposed to postpone the Committee till the
Monday after the Whitsun recess. The opposition to
the Bill he believed to proceed from the proprietors of
one or two fisheries, while the majority approved of it.
INTRAMURAL INTERMENTS.
Lord MONTEAGLE asked how it happened that,
notwithstanding the Act of last year, intramural inter-
ment still continued, as though no legislation had taken
place?

The Earl of CARLISLE said ho was not aware that
his Noble Friend intended to put the question; but he
might state that the Board of Health, under the direc-
tion of the Treasury, were in communication with seve-
ral cemetery companies with respect to the terms on
which they might take possession of their cemeteries,
but he was unable to state the result. The transaction
involved financial operations of considerable magnitude.
He could assure his Noble Friend that he quite shared
with him in the desire to bring the law into operation
with the least possible delay.
On the motion of Earl GREY,
Their Lordships adjourned till Monday, the 16th of
June.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 6.
INCOME AND PROPERTY-TAX COMMITTEE—
ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate on
this question,
Mr. HUME wished to draw the attention of the
House to disposing of this matter as speedily as
possible. From the manner in which the motion
was met, he was confident that some new mode must
be adopted for the appointment of Committees on public
business, In the United States, the Speaker of the
Assembly selected the Members who should serve on
such Committees, and he thought that plan might be
safely practised here. It would then take the nomination
of the Committee out of the hands of the party-moving
for it. A similar practice almost prevailed in that House
with regard to private business, for in the case of a pri-
vate Bill the Committee was not named by the mover of
the Bill but by the Committee of Selection. Most of the
Members whom he had selected to serve on the Commit-
tee had declined to serve. He had endeavoured to select
them from every point of the House, so that all shades
of opinion should be represented, but the Members them-
selves had refused to servo, and he therefore thought
the sooner they adopted the Committee of Selection
principle the better. He could not understand why
the Nobo Lord had been induced to withdraw
the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Surely it was only right that the public
creditor should be represented on this Committee, and
ho would propose that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
should be one of the members of the Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER said the
present was an exceptional case, because the two sides
of the House who had carried the motion for the appoint-
ment of the Committee did so from different motives, and
hence the difficulties that stood in the way of its nomi-
nation. For his own part he had no objection to serve
on the Committee, provided he should be supported by
the nomination of a greater number of its members who
concurred with him, which was the more necessary as he
would not be able from the avocations of his office to at-
tend the Committee regularly. He (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) found about eight persons on the Cora.
mittee representing towns and boroughs, while three
only represented agricultural constituencies. This was
an unfair proportion as against the landed interest.
When the original question was before the House there
were two to one against any modification of the tax.
If the constitution of the Committee was such as to re-
verse that decision, could it be said that the House was
fairly represented? Yet such would be the case if the
Committee as named was appointed. He (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) requested his Hon. Friend to
withdraw his name from the list. He was ready to
servo on a Committee fairly constituted, but he objected
to ono not so formed. He, therefore, proposed to his
lion. Friend to adjourn the debate, seeing that at pre-
sent it was clearly impossible to constitute a satisfactory
Committee.
Mr. DEEDES said the-observation of the Right Hon.
Gentleman justified the course he (Mr. Deedes) had
taken on a former occasion in this matter. He had
voted against the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Boston because he thought a Committee ought to be
appointed, and what had since passed only tended to
confirm that opinion. The difficulties of the case were,
he admitted, enormous, but that was only a stronger
reason, not why the Committee should not be appointed,
but why it should be such as to deserve the confidence
of the House and the country. The report of a Com-
mittee on the subject ought to have the greatest possible
weight, or its decision would be a delusion. The re-
port of a Committee such as that named by the Hon. Member for Montrose would not, however, have that de-
gree of weight. Therefore he asked the Hon. Member to
defer its nomination until after Whitsuntide. Besides,
the Committee proposed was different in many respects
from that of which notice had been given, which was
another reason for its postponement. All ho (Mr.
Deedes) asked fur the agricultural interest was that it
should be fairly represented in the Committee. The
public were hostile to the tax principally because there
had been no inquiry into its inequalities, and ho believed
if the report of the Committee was favourable te
in.
its
continuance the tax would bo readily acquiesceds
But then the Committee should have the c
uta nc
eclat
the House and the country. Under these circumstances
the debate.
rem
he (Mr. Deedes)
moved the adjournment
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said the Chancellor
if he had
of the Ex-
chequer was ready to serve on then. e
Member for Kent,
Committee
a majority.—(No, no.) The Ho
too, would be satisfied with a majority for the landed in-
terest. More than a month had elapsed since the House
further how could Hon Mem-
postponed,
class of men than those
agreed to the motion to appoint a Committee; the ap-
pointment was
hers hope to obtain a better ?
question was,,
would tne
Committee so name
already
mr. wn
W.
a forEs tsdhs eiinspire
me
tt
confidence in the mind of
the public. At present e
only ono Hon. Gentleman ac-
quainted
with the mysteries of finance was on it. Names
had been abstracted and otherssubstitute l in the original
list. 1499ki13g 41 1149 ainuitude pj 040 oubject, he had &

right to ask if Pitt, Peel, and the Right Hon. Gentleman
oppo*ite had failed to remove the inequalities of the tax
in question, could the Committee as now constituted re-
move them ? He was, therefore, of opinion that the
inquiry should be postponed until the next session of
Parliament.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE condemned the mode of appoint-
ing public Committees as unfair and unwise. That de-
bate had shown what little confidence the House reposed
in them; but the public at large reposed still less. In
fact, the country had no confidence in Committees of
that House, and they should, therefore, be appointed, as
in France, upon a different principle.
Mr. MO WATT denied the inference of the Hon.
Member (Mr. Miles), that because a remedy for the ine-
quality of the income-tax had not been discovered in the
last century, it could not be discovered in this. There
was the discovery of steam, railroads, &c., to disprove
that proposition. After the House had decided upon a
Committee for that purpose, it would be unjust to ride
off on the opinions of parties and refuse it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained. He had only objected to going into a Committee
the majority of which was against the tax.
Sir J. WALSH. had voted for the limitation of the tax
to one year instead of three; aud, therefore, he did not
consider he was giving a cross vote in supporting the
adjournment of the present debate. The difficulty in the
case was created by the fact of her Majesty's Govern-
ment having lost the power of carrying their own mea-
sures into effect, and still retaining the administration
of the country in their hands. After the declaration of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer there was, in his opi-
nion no option but that of adjourning the question.
Air. BAILEY said a month had elapsed since the mo-
tion for a Committee was agreed to, and yet nothing
had been done in the matter.
Lord R. GROSVENOR said a few words, which were
inaudible.

Mr. DEEDES, in explanation, begged to say he did
not wish by his motion to shelve the question—he only
wanted a fair and honest inquiry into the subject.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY would remind his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Hume) that he had always said no Member
should be on two Committees at once. The Hon. Mem-
ber had departed from that rule, as ho had named the
Hon. Member for the West Riding, who was already on
three Committees.
Mr. HUME had selected the Committee fairly. He
had consulted all sides of the House as far as possible
and as fairly as possible. All he asked was to have the
name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his four
names on the list, and he would give the Chancellor of
the Exchequer a carte blanche to till up the rest of the
Committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the best course would be to
agree to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. He
was not yet prepared to vote in favour of the name of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer being on the Commit.
tee on such a great financial question as that of a revi-
sion of the income-tax. He thought the best course
would be to agree to the adjournment of the debate, with
the view of enabling the Hon. Gentleman to prepare a
Committee which the House would agree to. It was of
great importance this question should further sifted,
but in the present state of the question he should vote
for the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. HUME wished to know who would take the
trouble to name the Committee?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
make another attempt, but he could not say he would
succeed. He would, however, do his best to form the
Committee, and that was all he could promise.
Mr. HUME said he would leave the Committee en
tirely in the hands of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. COBDEN said the fact of the Hon. Member for
Huntingdon having refused to serve on the Committee
was quite sufficient to warrant the hesitation that had
ensued. He did not agree with the view of Hon. Mem-
bers who wished to have Right Hon. Gentlemen on the
Committee who possessed financial and official expe-
rience. The object of the Committee was to alter or
modify the tax. He wished, however, to stipulate that
the absence of Hon. and Right Hon. Members from the
Committee of Inquiry should not be a valid objection to
the appointment of a Committee (we understood.)
Mr. HERRIES merely rose to say he objected to
serve on the Committee, because be was unable to give
his attendance. It was not merely a financial question
—it was a question of a far wider character, and, there-
fore, financial experience was not the only requisite for
an appointment on the Committee.
The debate was adjourned to next Friday.
In reply to a question from Mr. HUME,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would give the Hon.
Member an early day to bring on the Borneo question;
and with respect to the Kafir question, it it could not be
brought on next Thursday he should take it on Friday.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL.
The Rouse went into Committee on this Bill.
On clause 2 being proposed,
Mr. REYNOLDS rose to move that the words he
should read be omitted--" Under any designation or de-
scription whatever." In moving the omission of those
words he would state at the outset his object was to carry
out the declaration of the Prime Minister and the law
officers of the Crown, that they intended by the Bill to
leave the Catholics and the Catholic religion the same
rights as they had secured to them under the Act of
1829. He did not find the words in question in that
Act, and he, therefore, wished to know how the law
officers could justify the retention of those words.
Would Government, after their previous declarations,
come forward and state that they were prepared to make
war on the Catholic religion? What had occurred to
justify this great violation of civil and religious liberty?
Why, that his Holiness the Pope, in virtue of that power
which he spiritually enjoyed, had created certain arch-
bishops and bishops in England. It might be said his
Holiness had also created a Cardinal, but he doubted
whether that was the fact.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped
the next act of his Holiness would be to appoint Dr.
141`Hale a cardinal, and also to transmit a cardinal's
hat to Dr. Cullen, the Primate of ail Ireland.
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman said we
should not be in a worse position now than after
the Act passed; but he was satisfied this would not be
correct. The Noble Lord, in his opening speech, had
declared that bulls had fallen into disuse, and that the
statutes applicable to them had become obsolete. But
by this Bill the Noble Lord would resuscitate and re-
vive these old enactments in all their persecuting and re-
prehensible force. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
the Solicitor-General, in his peculiar way, bad told the
House that they knew nothing about the law, while he
seemed to think that he was the law and the prophet too.
That Hon. and Learned Gentleman told the Roman
Catholics they would not be touched by the Act, but that
they would, in fact, be as safe as a diamond in cotton.—
(Laughter.) He should like to know what the Hon. and
Learned Member for Abingdon would do with the Act
if he should get it, and whether he would institute pro-
secutions under it if he happened to come into power?
There was another Hon. and Learned Gentleman who no
doubt looked forward to official existence in Ireland,
and to whom he should like to put the question as
to what he would do if the Bill became law, and he in
power. The Hon. and Learned Member for Enniskillen
was one of the most eloquent of the advocates for the late
Mr. O'Connell, on the occasion of his trial, and he had heard
from the lips of Mr. O'Connell himself words expressive
of his approbation of the advocacy of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman. That trial cost the country
75,0001., and broke the heart of the man whom the peo-
ple of Ireland considered to be their best friend. He
considered that the life of Mr. O'Connell had been sa-
crificed to the bigotted and intolerant feeling which had
always been displayed against men who in Ireland
honestly and conscientiously expressed their opinions.—
(Hear.) He did not think they would say that they
would dare to lay hands on ono of the Lord's anointed
priests in Ireland. lie had never threatened the Go.
vernment on the subject of this Bill. What he had told
them was, that if they passed the Bill it would be a
nullity and a dead letter. As a conscientious Catholic
he said that resistance to such a law as this would be a
virtue, and he would never call on his countrymen to
obey it. The Noble Lord might tell him that there
was a great deal of prejudice in England and Scotland
on this subject, and that it was necessary to legislate.
He was not there to justify any language of Cardinal
Wiseman that might have been painful to the feelings
of any Christian; but no language used by Cardinal
Wiseman could justify a measure like this against
the whole Roman Catholic population. There was,
ho believed, a description of cur dog which, if kicked
by one person, bit the next person it met.
He did not say that that was exactly the feeling of the
people of England, but it was something like it. Sup-
pose the Bill became law, would they dare to pro-
secute the four Catholic archbishops and twenty-tour
bishops in Ireland, if they signed after the manner of
Dr. M'Hale, Archbishop of Tuam ? He cautioned the
Noble Lord against supposing that the heads of the
Catholic Church in Ireland would submit to any en-
croachments on their rights. There was not a town or
village in Ireland which would not support the bishops,
if they signed according to their sees. The Noble
Lord might think that Lord Clarendon would be a
strong support to him, but Lord Clarendon was at a dis-
count in Ireland. 'he Catholic Bishop of Dublin,
Dr. Murray, had refused to dine at the table of the Lord
Lieutenant on her Majesty's birthday, in consequence of
the insult which had been offered to those of the Ca.
tholic faith. He was happy to hear that an interval of
fourteen days would elapse before the next discussion of
the measure. He regarded it as a sort of respite which
was intended to reconcile them to their fate. During
the Easter recess he had visited Dublin, and had at-
tended a great meeting of Roman Catholics, at which
resolutions were passed condemnatory, not only of this
Bill, but of the Government. Another resolution called
on all Irish Members to vote against the Government on
every occasion on which their existence might be endan-
gered, and, with soma few exceptions, the Irish Ca-
tholic Members had obeyed the resolution. At the
present moment a requisition Was in course of signaturen
to arraign this Bill and to establish a Catholic Association. That association is ould establiieshDede,eannd
its first duty would be to carry on the agitation until this
Bill, if it became law, was repealed. A. general election
was at hand, and he should do his best in Ireland to op•
pose the return of any Member who would not vote for
the repeal of this measure and
against its authors. Some Hon, wa
Members did not think
ge political warfare
the measure severe enoueh. The Hon. nd ned
Member for Midhurst evidently thought t tooL sevearere,
for he was prepared to exempt Ireland from the Bill.
Some of the friends of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had grumbled at his proposal, but he could assure them
that whatever might be the opinion within the House,
the people outside were beginning to think it was all a
delusion. He had listened with pleasure to the declara-
tion of the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. O'Ferrall), when
he said that the Noble) Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment had lost his confitience, but regretted to find the
Hon. Member among the supporters of the Government
in the division on the Ceylon question, which the Right
Hon. Member for the University of Oxford had told
them was to be regarded as ,a vote of censure. The
14914114 We Aleinber concluded by inoTin Iche Ouliabi"

of the words " under any designation or description
tvh atever."
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had seen very lately in the
newspapers an address to the Hon. Gentlemen who op-
posed that Bill, and who were complimented for exhi-
biting what was celled "Spartan courage"—(Laughter)
—in the course they pursued. He did not know how
far they were entitled to the character of " Spartan 00,11;
rage;" but there was another designation to which be
wished they would entitle themselves—namely, that of
" Spartan brevity."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin had taken
another occasion of going into the whole question befe.ire,
them; but it did not appear to him (Lord J. Russa`l.,
.)
that he was obliged to follow the Hon. Gentleman. Bus
he confessed he had been rather surprised to bear ,u
manner in which he had alluded to the vote of another
Hon. Member on another question. He (Lord J. F.,%
sell) hoped he bad misunderstood the Right Honou.r..a.eo_.
Gentleman the late Governor of Malta (Mr. M. OEt
tall) in supposing that he said he had lust all confidence
in the present Government for their introduction of thata
Bill. But what he could not understand was, that w 1.1.03
a charge was brought against a person for wanton
cruelty, and he was pronounced guilty of judicial
der—he could not understand why individuals whocravie_t:
not convinced that that charge was true, could 0.70
down to that House to give a vote condemning, the
character of that person in order to show their wsru)
of confidence in the Government.—(Hear, bear.)
He had been told that letters had been sent
to the Irish Members requiring them to vote so. 5314131 c
not think that Hon. Gentlemen could be unaware land
they were then giving an opinion upon the CoYlerlS_ the
not the Papal, question.—(Hear.) With respect ta_.s
present clause, the Committee would recollect that it,"th'e
a clause to prevent the assumption in this country of the
titles of Archbishop of Westminster, or Bishop of :at
minghani, or Bishop of Clifton; but although it foie
beyond the Relief Bill in the letter, it was in full con:),
mity with the spirit of that Act. Both by law, end
matter of policy, no foreign power should give ate
tonal title to a prelate in this country, whether it was
the title of an existing bishopric or not. The Hon. Gen-
tleman tleinan was mistaken in supposing that in endeavourL_Pr,'
to defend themselves they did anything to change _Teri
much the present state of things. If it was not lawful
now for a Roman Catholic to take the title of Arclibi nariry
of Dublin or of Armagh, ought it not to be squalls
so so with respect to taking the title of Archbishop of
is this country? Although nothing was a Pre-
pr.
fitable modern profession than that of a martyr, it
he
M‘Hale chose to incur the penalties of that ACl''
words
referred be allowed to do so. Believing that the' referred to were necessary to carry out the Prler
.
meaning of the clause, he would oppose their omiss.tso
°sf
Mr. E. B. ROCHE said, although he sat at thatsiof
the House, he should be as ready to vote his want
confidence in the Ministry as any Hon. Member I
sot
os
bite, provided they continued the same line of PQot
which they at present pursued towards Ireland. Let
Hon. Gentlemen therefore say, because he did not oealtPrlc
a place at their side of the House that he was the Wt.%)
friend of the Government. He regretted that the Noble
Lord did not accede to the proposition of the Hon. Me 0.
her for Dublin, which he thought was an extremely ID
der ate one. What that proposition asked was silhl4.
allow the Roman Catholic bishops and ecclesiastical dig 4
nitarics to give up their present titles, and take up °the'
such as the Dissenters, the Presbyterians, and Afelw
diets did in this country.
Mr. WHITESIDE said it was impossible for asY
Irish Member, feeling as he did, to listen in silenne4
the speech of the Hon. Member for Dublin. He 'of
been asked whether he would be a party to a meashr,t/
persecution directed against a portion of his felt°ris
1a
countrymen, and to that ho had answered that he 11/Vi
not.—(Hear, hear.) The mode of argument pursued be
the Hon. Member for Dublin was peculiar. First, be° sunned the principle of the measure, and described it
one of bigotry, of cruelty, of intolerance, of oppressi°.r;
of everything that was bad. The Hon. Gentleman, id
alluding to a case in which he (Mr. Whiteside)ht
borne a part, had pronounced a eulegium on a Right
"
Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham), who sat near him (LL',f
",
i
Whiteside), for his manly vindication of the rights °e
the people. Now that Right Hon. Baronet was tue"
chief mover in the prosecution against Mr. O'Connelli
(Hear, hear.) It was a bill of indictment preferred
against a nation. It was defined by the Minister then
in power that if there was a breach of the lass', thl
greater the number of persons who were involved in
the more necessary did it become to vindicate the law
strictly. On that ground was that prosecution usnill:l
tained. The Hon. Gentleman said the people of Ireland
were to be deprived of some rights which they ,0
pos-
sessed. If that were satisfactorily proved to him '
would vote with the Hon. Gentleman. Was it propose"
then to repeal the Act of Emancipation? He could AV
the Hon. Gentleman himself was the first party to
break that Act, by not keeping its provisions and saint-
lations.—(Hear.) Whatever might be said of the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government, it could never be al-
leged but that, so far as the patronage of the Crown was
concerned, he had fairly and honourably carried out i-e 3
spirit.—(Hear, hear.) Did the Roman Catholic bishopo
possess the right of territorial rank and dignity legailY
in Ireland? If they had it by law, they should have it
by his vote.—(Hear, hear.) But had they those titles
by statute law, by territorial right, or long usage? Li°
denied that it was so. If ever there was a simple law,
the statute law on the subject was clear. There will
the statute of Richard 11. yet in force in Ireland; and
the statute of Elizabeth was also in operation. The 9th
and 10th of Victoria proved that the Act of Elizabeth
was in force. By one of those Acts, to maintain the
jurisdiction of the Pope was a breach of the law; and by
another it was the same to accept a commission from the
Pope. Now, although the first law was passed in Ca-
tholic times, it was expounded in Protestant times. it
was not the granting of a commission by the Pope
which exceeded the law, but the accepting of it, and
the attempt to exercise authority under the same. Did
the Hon. Member for Dublin remember the oath which
he (Mr. Whiteside) had taken at that table?—
hear.) He had been obliged to swear that the Pope of
Rome had no spiritual jurisdiction in this realm; and
that oath be believed to be trim.
Mr. REYNOLDS said he did not take it. table?—(Hear.
Mr. WHITESIDE continued—With great respect he
maintained that this was a Protestant country—(.' No'
no," from the Irish Members)—and when they Were
obliged to swear that the Pope bad no jurisdiction
within this realm they should keep their oath.—(Heat.)
How did the matter stand in Ireland even after the time
of James I.? By acts of Anne and William there was
still a clear refusal to grant the assumption of any eccle-
siastical titles in Ireland. Acts passed in those two
reigns distinctly forbade any clerical rank. Even the
21st and 22d of George 111., the first Act contemplating
any relief towards the Roman Catholics, still continued
the same restriction with regard to titles. How, be
would ask, did the Act the 35th of George 111., that
under which the College of Maynooth had been esta-
blished, deal with that point? It was essential that
Maynooth should be governed by trustees, who were to
be dignitaries of the Catholic Church, and how did the
Act describe those whom it was necessary to name?
Why, it had nominated one as Dr.O'Rdlly, of Drogheda,
doctor of divinity; and another as Dr. Troy, of Dublin,
doctor of divinity.—(Hear, hear.) It would be very hard
to discover from the 10th George IV. how it gave terri-
torial titles to those ecclesiastics; for it created a penalty
for an encroachment, and that was no proof that the
said encroachment was legal before. Actions had
been brought by laymen from time to time against
bishops for the fearful act of excommunication pro-
nounced by them, and damages recovered against the
bishops. There had been instances in which the bishopsi-
, insisting on their jurisdiction, claimed their right to do
what they had done because they were bishops of the
Church of Rome. One case had been that of a plaintiff
named Boylan against the Right Rev, P. M‘Loughlin!
Bishop of Raphoe. After rots rring to the opinion of
counsel on the case, the Hon. and Learned Member
quoted the judge's decision, which was to the effect that
on no occasion had a Roman Catholic bishop a right to
punish a parishioner by pronouncing against him a sen-
tence of excommunication, such being a breach of the
law, end a usurpation of the powers of the bishops of
the Established Church. That case went before the
Court of Queen's Bench, and the question raised
was the spiritual jurisdiction, and Chief Justice
Dinnes had decided that the law was against the
claim. The Honourable and Learned Member referred
to one or two other cases of a similar nivure to show -
that the jurisdiction claimed was not allowed. In most •
of the cases damages had been recovered. It was ad- •
mitted that neither the canon law nor the discipline of the
Church of Rome was known to the law of England; awl •
if one broke the law, it was no answer to claim to have
done so arid so under the authority of the Church of
Rome.—(Hear, hear.) He asserted that the Roman
Catholics were more interested in maintaining that law
than the Protestants;- for if the system of their church 1
was administered in the same way in which he had seen
it in Rome, he would esk what liberty could they poszees?
He was disposed to give his Roman Catholic fellow-
countrymen full liberty—liberty of speech, of thought,
of action, of study; he only maintained that the Govern-
ment 01 this country, being a Protestant country, should
be a Protestant Government. He was willing to make
every concession to them short of surrendering that vital
principle.—(Hear, hear.) If Dr. Whateley was nomi-
nated Archbishop of Dublin by the Sovereign of this
realm, how could it be tolerated that the Pope of Rome
should appoint another person to the fame position ? He
was accused of attacking the liberties of his Roman Ca-
tholic fellow-countrymen. He denied the charge. .He
wished for liberty in Ireland—he wished for liberty in
Rome; he did not wish to confine its blessings within the
narrow limits of the empire in which he dwelt; he
would much rather say, may they be permanent and uni-
versal!—(Cheers.)
Mr. MONSELL said there bad been a manifest fallacy
running throughout the entire speech of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman. The Roman Catholics did not ask
that House to recognise their bishops—all they asked
was, not to be prevented from recognising them them-
selves. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the May-
nooth Act, but it would be easily seen that those divines
named in that Act could not well be otherwise described.
In Mr. Pitt's time, in the year 1792, a petition from the
Roman Catholics of Ireland had been presented to the
King (
esG eorge
at h III.)
been on his throne, and the two first sig-
natur to thad Dr. Troy, Archbishop of Dub- •
lin, and Dr. Moylan, Bishop of Cork. The policy of
the Government of that day had been to get the Court
of Rome to substitute bishops for vicars•apostolic in this
country. In one of the eases alluded to by the Hon, and
Learned Gentleman, an indictment had been preened
against the party because letters had been found in his
pocket describing him as Vicarius Apostolicus of the
sees of Dublin and Kildare. Thus ho was proceeded
Hgainst, Lot as a bishop but as a vicar-apostolic, and
therefore they were as much against them as the bishops.
With respect to the statute of pramunire, he should ob-
serve that all the authorities showed that the object of
that statute was to prohibit bulls of except^
munication, and bulb for translating bishops from
their sees against their Wills, Ia believed that