The Sun.
London, England, 1834-04-17 00:00:00

SHIPPING INTEREST.

Mr. GUE ST presented a petition from Wap-
ping, that the meal and flour now in bond may
he converted into biscuits and retained in bond in that
state. The hon. gentleman considered it unnecessary
to dwell on a subject that involved the shipping in-
terest of the country before a British House of Com-
mons ; and when the subject be brought before their
attention, in the present instance, was one which in-
volved that interest deeply, he was assured of the best
consideration being given to it. The naval power of
the country was a paramount object, and the com-
mercial prosperity of the country was bound up with
it, for the former was sustained by the contribution of
the commercial marine. It was quite in evidence last
year before a committee of that house, that the shipping
interest was the most depressed of all in the empire.
Without touching on the vast subject of the colonies,
he would rest upon the fairness of the petition, and
pray the house to attend to it for the sake of the par-
ties concerned, and because that, being compelled to
meet the foreigners, they should be enabled to meet
them at least upon equal ground. It was perhaps the
only means by which relief could be afforded to the
shipping interest withoueinterfering with the principles
of free trade. He believed his Majesty's Ministers
were favourable to the petition, and, he trusted, the
house generally.—To lie on the table.
Mr. POTTER rose to ask a question of the noble
lord opposite (Lord Howick) whether it was true that
the inquiry into the Oldham riot was to be conducted
by the coroner. He had no confidence in that officer.
Mr. METHUEN rose to order, objecting to the
course the hon. gentleman was pursuing as being irre-
gular. If discussions and arguments were allowed to
take place from day to day on petitions, the half of
them could not be presented—( Hear.)
Lord HO WICK said he would not answer the
question at present unless it was the general wish of
the house.

Sir C. BURRELL said there were thirty gentle-
men who had been waiting several days to present pe-
titions, and if irrelevant questions were allowed, they
might be obliged to wait still longer. He hoped the
Speaker would interfere.—( Hear.)
Mr. C A YLE Y said, that notwithstanding the de-
pressed state of trade at that moment, the foreign mar-
ket could still undersell the British. Biscuits could
be imported for 10s. a hundred weight, duty 25., and
profit ls., making 13s. per cwt. ; while in England
biscuits could not be made for less than 18s., making
a difference of ss. per cwt. The proposition of the
hon. member for the Tower Hamlets would be, in his
(Mr. C.'s) opinion, in direct violation of the laws.
Mr. WALLACE would occupy the time of the
house but a few moments. His constituents complained
that the British shipping were supplied with biscuits
from Hamburg, and that they were carried from thence
to the British colonies for British consumption. He
(Mr. W.) was one of those who thought that the pre-
sent system of corn laws should be done away with.
Major BE AUCL ERK denied that the repeal of
the corn laws would be in any way prejudicial to the
interests of this country. He thought that the ship-
ping interest had a right to procure their provisions
wherever they could get them cheapest. He should
be most happy to find that the government were in-
clined to give way upon the present occasion.
After a few words from Mr. CAYLE Y in explana-
tion,

Mr. TOWER said that he thought the petition was
a most unfair one, and hoped that its prayer would not
be granted. He thought that the repeal of the corn
laws would be nothing better than a species of political
swindling. [The hon member proceeded to state the
amount of corn imported into this country from Russia
in the year 1831, and the quantity in bond, but the
noise in the body of the house prevented our catching
his observations distinctly.]
Mr. CLAY said that the present price of biscuits was
14s. per cwt., whereas if the prayer of the petition were
to be granted biscuits could be made at Bs. per cwt., little
more than one-half. The boon therefore to the shipping
interest would be of the greatest importance. If however
that boon were not granted, all the branches of trade con-
nected with making biscuits would entirely depart from
this country.
Sir C. BURRELL said he was confident that the
landed interest had no desire whatever to interfere with

the shipping interest (Near, hear), but were perfectly
ready to give the claim sought for every possible con-
sideration. He for one thought that the shipping
interest bed been Very unfairly treated by what was called
free trade, the principles of which had been productive of
great injustice. A great part of the carrying trade had
already .departed from this country. If the boon sought
for could be granted, so that frauds should be prevented, so
far from the -landed interest interfering to prevent the
shipping ihterett obtaining, that adVantage, they Would do
all they could to forward that Objects
Mr. ATTWOOD said it was now proved that the Will
laws had not paid the national debt, nor enabled the landed
interest to discharge the mortgages and incumbrances
on their property.—( Hear, hear.) The corn laws
had, in fact, acted most delusively and destructively
to the landed interest. He wished for fair and reintitiera-
tive prices--such as would give the labourer what he ought
to receive, via., 15s. a week for his labour, but those laws
would not give that
,price ; money laws only would do it.
He begged to remind the hon. member (Mr. Towers),
who said that the repeal of the corn laws would be political
swindling, that during the last 16-or 17 years the prices of
corn had greatly fallen. During the three years ending in
1819, the price of wheat was 10s. a bushel, and the work-
ing and labouring classes were much happier. In 1819,
when we had recourse to the monetary system, the agri-
cultural prices fell ; and what was the reason ? It was
because that house adopted measures which took away
the money from the pockets of the great mass of
the people. (Hear.) Those measures had the effect, in
a great degree, of closing millions of hungry mouths
(Hear), and prevented our produce from being received
by the foreign markets. That system went on, with little
intermission, from 1819 to 1822, in which year Lord
Castlereagh introduced in that house five money measures,
such as the 11. notes, the increase of loans, and thereby
increasing the burdens of the people. When, in 1825, thebill
of 1819 was put in force, again our ports were nearly closed,
and the agricultural prices had been going down ever since,
although the population had increased3o per cent. since 1811.
He acknowledged that agricultural prices were ruinously
low ; he wished to raise them ; but he denied that it was
possible to raise them by creating an artificial famine. The
proper way would be to fill the people's pockets with
money, so that having the means of purchasing, they
should be enabled to gratify their wants and till the hungry
mouths of themselves and their children. The hon. mem-
ber for Harwich must know that having adopted
the continental measure of value, they could not
possibly, by any corn laws, prevent agricultural prices from
falling to the continental level. This was a fact as certain
as the day and night. They were not cut down yet to the
continental level, but they were driven down by a power
they could not resist. He would say that it was as certain
as the day and night, that to the continental level they must
fall ; and in two moments he would give proof of it. (Oh,
oh !) They could not expect that gold could be kept
in this country when it acquired a higher value by being
sent to the other side of the channel. (Hear, hear.)
He would say that if they wished to keep gold in this
country, they must build up a wall so high that a cuckoo
could not fly over it. (A laugh.) They must not only
prevent wheat from coming in, but they must prevent gold
from going out,but knowing, as they must, that gold would
seek the market where its value is highest, they must
acknowledge that if it commanded more at one
side of the Severn than the other, it would most
certainly go to that side where it would command
most, and in the same way on the other side of the Chan-
nel. Gold, like water, would find its own level. He had
foretold the consequence of the measure of 1819 ; and he
was sure that those who then sanctioned that measure
would, if they had known the consequences, have had their
arms drawn from their bodies before they would have con-
sented to pass it into a law.
Mr. TOWERS rose, but considerable confusion ensued.
The hon. gentleman was inaudible ; but we understood
him to complain of misrepresentation.
The SPEAKER assured the hon. member that any
one was liable to be misapprehended, who spoke on sub-
jects not before the house. (Hear.)
Mr. HUME was certain that nothing could be brought
before the house of greater importance than what related
to the shipping interest. It was fair that equal terms
should be extended to the shipping interest as to others ;
and he therefore felt a pleasure in supporting the prayer of
the petition.
Mr. P. THOMSON read an extract from the peti-
tion, and inferred from what he had read that a good deal
of time had been taken up in useless discussion. He did
not see on what grounds it could be advisable to adopt the
prayer of the petitioners. Provided all difficulties could be
got over, then there might be no objection to doing what
was asked ; but frauds were too well facilitated by the sys-
tem of allowing flour in bond to go out and return in an-
other shape. (Hear.) There was the experience of Mr.
Huskisson's measure in 1825, and it was found that frauds
were committed to a great extent. It was a very hard
matter to ascertain exactly what quantity of biscuit should
be returned for a certain quantity of flour. The weight of
the two was not easily compared, when one was converted
into the other. If he (Mr. P. Thomson) could, on fur-
ther consideration, be induced to believe that those
difficulties could be obviated, he should feel great plea-
sure in introducing a measure to the effect prayed for
in the petition. (Hear, hear.) The shipping Interest
did not on a former occasion feel a benefit from similar
plans. They thought otherwise now ; but there was a
great variety of interests to be consulted, and none should
be allowed to possess a predominant influence. (Hear.)
After a few words from General SHARPE, which were
inaudible in the gallery,
Mr. CLAY presented a petition from the Baptist Con-
gregation of Mare-street, Hackney, for the removal of
Dissenters' grievances. Also another from the Scotch Bap-
tist congregation of Windmill-street to the same effect.
The hon. member observed that all those who wished
well to the established church would do wisely to urge the
government to effect the immediate removal of all the
grievances complained of by dissenters, as the further pro-
, traction of the subject would be fraught with great danger
Ito the establishment. (Hear.) The hon. member also
presented a petition from the market gardeners in the
county of Middlesex, against Sir A. Agnew's bill to sup-
press Sunday trading. The petitioners stated that they
could have no objection for any provision for secur-
ing the Sabbath as a day of rest, inasmuch as
they were employed every day during the week,
and frequently at night, and that when the men were
employed on the Sabbath through necessity, it was found
that the languor consequent upon a deprivation of rest oc-
casioned a loss to the masters instead of any gain. They
also said, and he agreed with them, that legal enactments
could not promote religion, and that the observance of the
Sabbath would be better secured by a proper example on
the part of the upper classes. (Hear, hear. )
To lie on the table.

Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR said that, with all due
deference to the observations made by the Speaker yester-
day, he trusted that he had so framed the motion which
he was about to make, that it would obviate the difficulty
which had been started on a former occasion, and prevent
the inconvenience of the Speaker remaining in the chair
till three o'clock. He moved that the house do adjourn
till five o'clock.
Mr. METHUEN moved as an amendment that the
house be counted.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that it would be an insult to
present petitions, or go on with business, when there were
only 10 or 12 members in the house.
The SPEAIER asked the hon. member who seconded
his motion ?
Sir HENRY HARDINGE seconded the motion.

The SPEAKER then put the question, and the assents
and dissents appearing nearly equal, strangers were ordered
to withdraw, but we understood that no division took place,
and the house adjourned to five o'clock.

COURT OF CHANCERY.-(THIS DAT.)