The Sun.
London, England, 1851-07-19 00:00:00

The SPEAKER—WiII the Hon.—(Oh)—Member say
why he wishes to be sworn upon the Old Testament?
Alderman SA LOMONS —Bee aus Sir, I declare it to
he. most binding upon my conscience.
The SPEAKER—The oaths, then, may be adminis-
tered so.
The Hon. Gentleman then took without objection the
oath of allegiance and the oath of supremacy, and pro-
ceeded with the oath of abjuration, reading from the
form in his hand, until he came to the words " on the
true faith of Christian." These words he refused to
read, but concluded with the words " So help me God."
The Clerk advanced towards the Speaker, and said,
the Hon. Member has not repeated; the words "on the
true faith of a Christian."
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member having omitted
to take the oath in the form of words prescribed, it is
my duty to inform him that he must retire below the
bar.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition side of the
House.)
Mr. Alderman SALOMONS, still standing where he was,
read the following words from a paper :—" I have
now taken the oaths in the form and with the ceremonies
that I declare to be binding en my conscience, in ac-
cordance with stet. 1 and 2 Vict., cap. 105; I now de-
mand to subscribe the oath of abjuration, and to declare
to my property qualification." The scene was ex-
citing to the last degree some Members roaring
out at the pitch of their voices, " Withdraw, withdraw!"
while others added to the babble of sounds by calling
out for " Order, order!" or rising to go through a pan-
tomimic performance, as if they wished to address some-
thing to the Chair. The confusion, however, did not in
any way daunt the Hon. Member for Greenwich, and he
continued reading until he came to the close of the pa-
pers, when, tossing a roll of parchment across the table,
he slowly retired below the gangway, and took a seat on
the Ministerial side of the House next to Sir W. Moles-
worth. Tho Hen. Gentleman directly afterwards rose
and said, " Sir, I beg leave to say"—but his voice was
drowned amidst the renewed cries of " Order."
The SPEAKER then made an attempt to speak, and
something like order being at length obtained, he said
"The Honourable Member has omitted certain words
from the oaths, which is tantamount to not taking the
oaths at all, and it is therefore my duty to tell him that
he must withdraw."
Alderman SALOMONS did not appear at all inclined
to comply with the request, but still maintained his seat,
tnd the consequence was another scene of noise and con-
fusion was enacted; the Members on the Opposition side
of the House roaring and shouting continuously.
The SPEAKER'S voice was again heard above the
storm, and, as far as a e could catch his words, he said
the Hon. Member must be aware that the Act pre-
scribes that no Honourable Member can sit in
this House, or vote upon any question, unless
ho has taken and subscribed to the oaths pre-
scribed by law. Now the last of these oaths
has not ben taken in the sense which the House under-
stands the Ant—(Cheers)—and I again repeat to the
Hon. Member that it is my duty to direct him to with-
draw.—(Cheers.)
Mr. Alderman SALOMONS went towards the bar, but
remained within it until, amidst loud cries of Orden"
Mr. J. A. SMITH moved forward, and conducted the
Hon. Gentleman below it.
Sir B. HALL then rose and said he was requested by
the Hon. Member for Greenwich, who had just pi esented
himself at the table for the purpose of taking
the oaths prescribed by the Act, and by the
forms of the House, and who was prepared
to cake the oaths in a manner which in his opinion was
the most binding on his conscience to declare to the
Speaker and to the House that the Honourable Mem-
ber had withdrawn from the scat which he lately
occupied—(Laughter and ironical cheers)--in de-
ference to the high authority of the Chair.—(Cheers.)
But he was else instructed by the Honourable and
Learned Member to state—
Sir F. TEIESIGER rose to order.—(Cries of " Order,
order;" "Theft be put down;" and "Go on, go on.") I
apprehend, continued the lion. and Learned Member
for Abingdon, that the worthy Alderman has not
obeyed the order of the House by withdrawing.—
(Hear. hear.) He is at present standing within the
House, end I consider it my duty to call attention to that
circumstance.—(Hear, hear.)
[This of course gave rise to another exhibition of feel-
ing on the part of the Opposition, and again Hon. Mem-
bers ever and anon partially jumped up and motioned the
Hon. and Learned Alderman to withdraw, or indulged
in strange gesticulations, as if they were addressing some
angry observations to the Chair. Sir William Moles-
worth and Mr. J. A. Smith advanced to the
worthy and dauntless Alderman and endeavoured to
persuade him to quit the House ; but no, ho would
not do that; and at length the Sergeant-ae Arms
came to the rescue, and at his suggestion the Hon. Mem-
ber retired to one of the back seats under the Speaker's
gallery usually appropriated to Peers.]
Sir B. 11.4.1. LL then went on to say tnut at the time he
was interrupted by the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber for Abingdon he was about to state that the
was requested by the Hon. Gentleman the Member fur
Greenwich to declare to the House that his only object
in taking the course he had adopted was to try the legal
question of his right to sit for and represent Greenwich
in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) It was, however, not his
intention or desire to take any course which might be
either displeasing or inconvenient to Members; and he
(Sir B. Hall) had, therefore, to ask a question of the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the
absence of the Noble Lord at the head of the Goitre!?
mint which might facilitate the settlement of this dispute.
—(Hear, hear.) As ho said before, the Hon. Member
for Greenwich was only anxious to try his right to sit
in the House, and in order that the Hon. Member might
put himself in a position to have the matter tried in one
of the legal tribunals of the realm, he had to ask the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether,
in consequence of the proceedings which had now taken
place, or, if that proceeding was not sufficient,
whether, if the Hon. Member came in and took his seat
again, Government was prepared to institute an imme-
diate prosecution against him for the recovery of the
penalties provided by the Act of Parliament?—(Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in the unavoidable absence of his Noble Friend, he
would state the course which be thought it would be most
convenient to the House to pursue. He was Quite sure
that all who heard him would do justice to the anxiety
which the Honourable Gentleman had shown to viedi-
dicate that which in his opinion was his legal right, as
well as to the course he had taken in his endeavours to
do so in a manner consistent with the deference and re-
spect
due to that assembly. Ile apprehended that two
questions arose in that House—first, the right of the
Hon. Gentleman to a seat in that House, and, secondly,
the liability to certain consequences. One must be decided
by that House, the other by a court of law. In either
view of the case it was matter for very grave and seri-
ous deliberation, and he was not prepared to answer the
question which his Hon. Friend put with reference to
that part of the subject. He ;thought that no instant
proceeding should take place, but that an interval should
elapse, in order to have the opportunity of consulting
the Acts of Parliarneut, and gravely considering whet
course should be taken. He thought no proceedings
should be taken without notice, so that all persons might
be prepared to come to the discussion on which they
might feel bound to decide, not perhaps in accordance
with there own wishes, but, as they were bound to do,
by statute and constitutional law. He therefore proposed,
in order that they might consider the question in a grave
and deliberate manner, that no further proceedings
should take place at present, but that when the Noble
Lord was present on Monday they ehonld resume them.—
(Cheers.)
Sir B. HALL observed that in a matter of this im-
portance, nothing could be fairer than the proposal of his
teight Hon. Friend, and for hie uart he had no objection
to postpone the question until Monday, or any other day
next week that might be more convenient to the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to ask what question
they were to resume on Monday; because there were
two questions.—(A laugh) It was notanadjourned de-
bate; something must be moved.—(Laughter.),
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a
question wan put to him by the Hon. Baronet. the Meal.
ber for Marylebone, and as he did not feel in a position
to answer it, ho suggested that it should be postponed till
Monday. What he proposed now was,that nothing should
take place at present, but that the question should stand
over till Monday. Government being in full possession
of what had taken place would come down then fully
prepared to give the lion. Baronet for Marylebone an
answer one way or another.
Sir F. THESIGER said if he understood there was
a question for the House to decide he should be dis-
posed to concur in the suggestion of the Right Hon
Gentleman, hut, like the Hon. Member for Finsbury, he;
felt great difficulty in ederstanding, from the Right
Honourable Gentleman's statement, what the matter
was which was to be discussed oa Monday.—(Hear,hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the
House that there were two questions to be decided—first,
as to the seat; and secondly, as to instituting a prose-
cution for the purpose of trying the right of the Hon.
Member for Greenwich to sit and rote in the House. Now,
ho had great difficulty in understanding what was the
first question which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed
to take on Monday. There could be no doubt whatever
that, according to the decision of the House, the Hon.
Member, having refused to take the oath of abjuration,
was totally incapable of taking his seat—(Cheers)—and,
therefore, he apprehended that no question of that de-
scription could possibly arise. (Mr. Sergeant Murphy
dissented.) Well, then, what was the question ?
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Cork
said there was a grave doubt, but he was not in Parlia-
ment in the course of last session, and
.therefore was not
aware that there was upon the journals a re-
solution of the House on a . precisely similar
question.—(Hear, hear.) Then if their resolutions
were worth anything
.no question of that description
was open to them to discuss? Ile hardly believed that
the House was prepared in a following session to rescind
a resolution agreed to after a long and anxious debate
on the subject—(Hear, hear)—and, accordingly, he
thought there must be some other point which
the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer proposed for consideration.— (Hear.)
Now, the House would permit him to say that he thought
they fell into a great mistake in the course they pursued
with regard to Baron Rothschild.—(Hear, hoar.) It
might be in the recollection of the House that, on the
Baron refusing to take the whole of the oath of abjue
ration, he (Sir Frederick Thesiger) rose and moved
that the Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the
Crown for a new writ for the city of London.—(Hear,
hear.) He was opposed by several Honourable Mem-
bers, and among them by the Master of the Rolls, then
the Attorney-General, who said that under the Acts of
Parliament the penalty was not a forfeiture of the seat,
but merely a disability to sit and vote. He thought the
Right Hon: Gentleman was mistaken in that respect.
He had very carefully considered the subject since, and