The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-16 00:00:00

bad been considered a matter which might by possibility
favour this design. In these circumstances, the present
discussion would tend much to increase the obstinacy of
the Dutch. If the friends of Hon. Gentlemen on the
other side had wished to embroil Europe in a general war,
they could not have adopted a more likely course than hr
entering into communications—(Hear, hear)—with the
very people between whom and this country there were
at that time existing communications and negotiations.
In short, their conduct was not merely incompatible with
the duty of men in office, but wish those of public cha-
racters. What was their present course? They sought
insidiously to produce an opinion unfavourable to the
policy pursued by Government. It was no answer to
him to say that no motion had been introduced—that,
therefore, there would be no expression of opinion ;
for if they did not seek to obtain a vote of the House,
they endeavoured to give the House a particular view
before the necessary documents were ready to be produced.
But he did not regret the discussion that had taken place,
because the arguments of that night would establish the
legality, and the papers the policy and justice of the course
pursued by Government. He would, therefore, declare
that there was no intention whatever of interfering with
the independence of Holland, much less with any of her
interests. The sole object was to establish the separation
which was now necessary for the welfare of both nations.
The independence of Belgium and her neutrality, guaran-
teed as they we' e, promised nothing but utility to Hol-
hnd. If Holland should attempt to recover Belgium, a
general war would probably be the result ; if to partition
it by the aid of ether Powers, she would find th it she had
acted unwisely and fatally by making such an attempt.
Whether her object was the recovery of Belgium by her own
arias, or the partition o' it with the co-operation of other
Powers, it would be the interest and the duty of the Bri-
tish Government to prevent her. The object of this
country was to make F3elgiutn independent, prosperous,
and happy ; and when that should be effected, the peace
and plosaerity of Holland was then best consulted. '
Sir R. VYVYAN said that Hon. and Learned Gentle-
men opposite were inconsistent, for if the question was not
now ripe for discussion, how could it have been so last
year ?—(Cheers.) If, as two Hon. Members declared, the
gitation of the justice or injustice of the embargo was
premature at present, how much more so must it haee
hen during the last Session ? In ol•p ,sition to the Noble
Lord he would assert, that Belgium was not de facto in-
depen.lent before the Duke of Wellington lett office.
Through the negotiations the King of Holland had
evinced the utmost anxiety to come to any reasonable
terms, and he had even accepted the 12th Pro.
tocol, which Belgium had rejeete '. The principle of-me-
diation announced by General Sehastiana had continued
during the Duke of Wellington's A,lministration, and up
to the moment when it pleased the Noble Lord to make it
arbitration. With what justice could it be a•srrted that
the three Powers were parti.s to the present proceedings
against Hull +rid, when they had themselves declared the
contrary in the documents upon the table ? (The lion.
Gentleman here read some extracts to bear out his views )
He would point the attention of the House to the gross
inconsistency of Ministers, who had made the King de.
Clare his determination to uphold at all risks the Union
between England and Ireland, at the very moment when
they were cutting the Legislative Union between Hol-
land and Belgiurn.—(Hear, heir.) Was that a time to
bring forward stich a declaration? The number of differences
existing between Eneland and Ireland was greater than
between Holland and Belgium.—( Hear.) If difference of
religion existed in one case, so oid it in the other ; the
languages, also, in both cases were itifferent, and in short,
as he had alreoly observed, the halauce of differences was
on the side of England and Ireland. Was not this, then,
a most unfortunate time to insist on separating Belgium
from Holland without giving a right of appeal to t e
latter?—(Hear.) The only principles of the Ministry
were superior force and strength—justice they despise .
Teey possessed no right whatever to force au independent
Sovereign into their measures ; if they employed violence,
their con wet was only to be pirilleled by the despotism
of Napoleon.—(Hear, hear ) As to the insinuation that
his friends sought to create a general war, he would
take no notice of it. They dislik•d a general war, but if
this country was to be made a particeps criramis in al!
the guilty enterprises of France, if she rushed along with
the latter into every scheme of ambition, then, indeed,
they would appeal to that great tribunal of arbitration
which could produce a new state of things, where the in-
telligil,le principles of war would supersede the present
confusion of right, under which injustice was perpetrated
without the slightest plea or colour to warrant it.

. .
Al there was ❑o motion before the House, the subject
was then dropped.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The House next resolved itself into a Committee of
Sut ply.
3,000.0001. were voted to cover the deficiencies of the
revenue for the year 1832.

The CHAIRMAN of the Committee was about to put
another item to the House, when
Mr. HUME said he had intended, could he have found a
time, to call the attention of the House to the state of the
annual supplies. In his opinion the estimates ought to be
Laid on the tittle before they voted the suppli s. The re-
venue of the country amourred to about 50 millions, but
ot this sum no more than 17 or 18 millions were under
the control of the House. A great number of Members
knew nothing whatever of the mode in which this was
disposed oc, for there were no documents which could rea-
dily exhibit the real state of things. TI-e custom of re-
ferring some taxes to the consolidated fund, and others to
other heads, produced confusion. He wished there should
be laid on the table a statement of the whole expense ot
collecting the revenue, as well as of the disbursements
made before it entered the Exchequer. It was true these
accounts were laid on the table, but in such a manner
that no sort of check could be exer,ised over them.—
(Hear, hear.) No control could be effectual, until
every farthing collected was exhibited on one side, and
every farthing expended on the ether, and in addition
every farthing that was voted by the House. He would
ask the Noble Lord (Althorp), had he any objection to
place all the accounts of the expense of collection, &c.
before the House ? l'be plan of subjecting the accounts
to the annual control of the Howe, was much better than
that of referring them to Committees. He could state
nstances where the collection of 5001. cost 1,0001., and
many more of a similar nature.
Lord ALTHOI-{P said the Hon. Member's object was
to have the whole expenditure and receipts exhibited on
one balance sheet. But the object could be attained as
easily, for under the separate heads accurate accounts were
given of every branch, including that of the collection of
tile revenue. All these were under the control and check
of the House. As to forming the estimates before the
expenditure, he (Lord Althorp) deemed that impossible.
The Hon. Gentlemen was also anxious to have all the
taxes referred at once to the Consolidated Fund ; but the
most pro• aele effect of that wowd be to remove them still
more from the control of Parliament. It was the inten-
tion of Ministers to issue a Commission for investigating
the collection of the Excise, Customs, and other branches.
—;Hear.) No oilier course was possible in a matter so
complicated; tint he hoped that improvements would be
effected in the collection of the revenue.—(Hear, hear.)
Theme were glaring ife'ects in the present system, and he
would endeavour to remedy them.

Mr. HERRIES wishedto Know when the Noble Lord
contemplated the possibility of making his financial state-
ment for the year ?
Lord ALTHORP replied that it was impossible for
him now v. say when it would be in his power to make
bin grm•ral financial statement.

Mr. HUME observed that he would postpone the mo-
tion of which he had given notice for to-night, until the
21st. The Commissi,,ners of Public Accounts had been
engaged for three yews in considering the best means by
which those accounts might be simplified—he should like
to know what they had done.
The resolution was then agreed to ; as was also a reso-
lution for granting to his Majesty the sum of 25,896,0001.
to pay off and discharge Exchequer bills issue 1 on the aids
of 1832 and 1833.

On the resolution for granting to his Majesty the sum of
274.050/. to pay off and discharge outstanding Exchequer
Bill., issued in aid of pub is works, building churches, &e.,
Mr. HUME expressed his opinion that the labour of the
Commissioners being completed, their salaries should cease.
The resolution was agreed to ; as was also a resolution
for granting to his Majesty the sum of 1,582,0001. to pay
off and discharge Exchequer 13:11s issued tor the payment
of the balance due to the four thousand holders of Four per
Cents., who had signified their dissent to the conversion
of that Stock into Three and a Half per Cents.
The House having resumed, the Report was ordered to
he brought up on Monday.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM brought up the Navy Esti.
mates, which were ordered to be printed.
At a few minutes after Midnight the House adjourned
to Monday.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 15.
The Loan CHANCELLOR. having taken the Chair at
five o'cliwk,
The Earl of RODEN presented petitions, numerous'y
signed, trio Brecon, Dundee, Ling Pres on, in Y.,rkshire,
an, several other places, praying fur the better observance 01
the Sabbath. Good exaniple ought to be set to the lower
orders by the framers of the laws and the bigher classes.

Tilers was ene hardship especially to which shopkee.:i
tradesmen who were desirous of decent!), observo'D
Sabitath were subject, viz., shops beinr Iree
Sundays by other persons, to the great injury Of th r
risoo
The Bishop of LoNnris and the Earl of W$ ',,,10
Lama presented several other petitions upon the
subject.
t e E
in
own
‘avral
Warwickshire,
e k shire WARWICK
praying
p r e sef,n,rt e da
na
ai petitionter atiea fro7Pol
poor laws. oey
he LwoorudldCmOoLvNerifLorLEthgeavree_naoptpioceinttlmiaetn,
of the Co
upon the affairs of the West Indies.
DISTURBANCES IN IRELAND.

The Order of the Day having been read, t F.
Earl GREY rose, and moved that that Pg co,
Majesty's Speech which related to the disturhab,,,ti
Ireland should be read, which having been
thy d".:ea
clerk of the House, the Noble Earl addressed btl
ships as follows :—My Lords, in conformity 'cl'ci td
gracious communication which you have just hest 100
from his Majesty's gracious speech from the throne'ooi!
rise to perform the painful but necessary duty 0f P P
to your Lordships a Bill for the more effectual suPPa.da
of local disturbances and dangerous assemblies in
Ir
is, indeed, my Lords, painful to bear of the extent 01' let
which is stated in his Majesty's speech to hae ter
veiled to an extent that is most lamentiab67ere
etthilil,letLberecrael4,
dering lie and property insecure, bidding deli
eioh
sthupepilteswse,da,ntdhethmreoasttenfaintagl,ciofn:eogtupezrensp;tly and e
is it to ins to state the conviction that
necessity cannot be sufficiently provided for by eeeisat
nary powers of the law, and that it should heeollieriGooft
to propose is Parliament to arm the executive• toe
ment with ae!ditional powers in order to enable ltd iadtt
form its duty of protecting the loyal, peaceables'liplly°
quences. My Lords, befere I
trious portion ot the community against a systeln °
violence threatening them with the most seri°„"'re yot
Lordships the grounds upon which the tnelltel
shall have to propose have been founded, jetiot,
details of the measure itself, it may be fitting that,44
state why his Majesty's Ministers have not, a°7fisfr
usual, though I believe the course has not been 111:444
pursued on former occasions, applied for the Previ„),o4
,ointment of Committee to inquire into the cirew'bs al
proceed to lay be° ref
which have produced the necessity of adopting seethe
The reason is obvious, and highly indicative of ",1
in which that country is placed. It is, my L'''D"ts;oo
cause the evils that exist in that country are or:
that they cannot require a Committee to inn' est/
Lordships to act promptly and vigorously. It:1' se
this case, my Lords, a secret conspiracy aet'°geooo
an appearance of peace, and directing its attacliegts,
against the Government. It is not, my Lords, "L 1, es
growth of the seeds of mischief bidden from trap.day, but threatening the float serious ons 64
which it is required to provide against, Lde thi
to convince those who are so acting "1;
are doing wrong ; but it is a system iedit/
nations framed under an organization, anu.Afetri
to objects which threaten the peace and f
the community, the unity and equanimity
b: top
empire, and which must be repressed, or
lamentable consequences will ensue.—(Hear, beadier
It is a •ystin, my Lords, of violence, of armed i"-cote'
ing apparently under a system of organiza•ion'uerie
ting the most atrocious ontraees, violating all "1 001)
of property, inflicting the penalty of death for theroat
object of intimidation and vengeance, deterring P is"
tors from proceeding before courts of law, writnltekri:
appearing, juries from doing their duty, and
j,
j
the law itself impotent for the protect' it,
safety of tie community.—(Hear, hear.) 11,1 Y
these are the dangers against which we
,'"hfeit';',,
night to provide, and the censtquence of which
his Majesty's Government have felt theinselvel 1.14
upon, in the per ()nuance of their duty—a P(4ern:1111;
imperative duty—to propose to your Lordship,' - ;gel-,
which I itainit to he measures of a severe nature'
o' 00:
sistent with the ordinary form and principles of 'beetit,
tution, and which would be justified by notbi",beC,
necessity of the case ; but that necessity existing., ler
measures which his Majesty's Government would,l3:otf,
guilty of a dereliction of their duty if they btin
posed to your Lordships for acceptation. My V, 'ill':
perhaps not necessary to inquire from what so.are-:aeti
disorders have sprung. As far as they can be hgiail,
any real or just cause, I am sure that your Lorbe'
concur with me in thinking that it Will 9
of our first dutiest to provide against then' 1/,
my Lords, at the same time that the Leg 'O,"
and the Government show a disposition t°:lrl
abuses, and to obviate causes of complaint, tbeY;o:iri,
desist, notwithstanding the present unfortunate .1 ie.
of affairs, from the course of justice, for &cod:
necessary that the authority of the law should bei
that peace and order should be re-estalilished,
shim d he enabled to place society in that state 01, ot*
which is necessary for the accoaldishment of aue;(le°,4
My Lords, I am unwilling to detain you with the—d,e
known, as all the circumstances must be, to Y°;‘, oco
ships, but it was necessary for me to state 601 o',
lain decree, in order to lay the foundation of °l
sures which I am about to propose. My L°„.31:01
withstanding all the powers of the Goccr°,-
ordinary execution of the laws, on account "; hit
stances which I need not detail to Ylnt Jite;
ships, have been hitherto found quite '','acev-
to the protection of the community from these
which are now so lamentably prevalent. MY the
dr
have slightly alluded to the extent of b 11,
turbances now prevailing —an extent wi''clife„,,
tiers absolutely insecure the peace -- tier I"
individuals and property. Need I call Y4'01,1
i
ships' attention, in the first place, to the n' y
blished association in Ireland ? When I 1::49:,
newly-established, perhaps I use improper
wo
because, under a new name, it is to
ll'''spcisa':
sidered only as the revival of an 'eaCi'",
which before existed. I allude to that new
ispteer'
known and entitled by the name of the for'td
Ireland. My Lords, the object of this associatil,
under the pretence of the redress of grievances bee
telly the Repeal of the Legislative Union.--(11,.er
It has been said that all the disturbances which "":epd
have arisen front a mere sense of injorY'Aeieng 0
reparation of injury alone will be sinfel,
restore tranquillity to Ireland. Would to '0 re',l
Lords, that I could lay that flattering unction t° 0.00 ,
that any thing arising from past experiences °:„jelge
present aspect of affairs, would allow me to Pe.,o
the hope that, by a redress of grievance alone, the
of Ireland could be established. My Lords, we '3,las t 5
ber the Catholic question.—(Hear.) Nobody "
rea
sanguine than I was in my hope that that g
necessary, that Parliamentary and fundatne"tatial
sure, would have pi educed peace and contentnien' oey
out Ireland.—(Hear, bear.) My Loris, I
itbtdp
the truth obliges me to say it—but I say it ,vjopei'v
and pain, that hope has been grievously dil'l-1",‘",1
Nobody indulged in it inure fervently than I (10'1 dill
ever felt at the same time more strongly than he su
I expressed that feeling in every debate upon %god!"
that though this was the necessary, the
fundamental measure, still, that that alone WOO'ties r
insufficient ; and that it must be followed byotbere
of an alleviating and effectual nature to repair tlh gt hose
of centuries.—(Hear.) But I did hope that t 10-egtoj
mental measure having been once passed as axle° sttetifi
desire of the Legislature and the Government °told()
the just wants anti cwmplaints of Ireland, it wn-to i 1)
enabled us to have proceeded to our iniprovenler Cot
-
turbed by popular violence. It is true 1113„beer,,'?
emancipation was too long delayed.—(Great eri
It is as true that we looked forward to thiefroo,)
tion of the measures of those who professeuba,
beginning to redress grievances, and it wa' ;' et 81P
that would have satisfied them for the Pre-heolied
earnest of still further relief. I did been. t
noose measures of further relief would ha" -tfrog
liar, but I have been greatly mistaken. A•l°'()sel'ati 4.0
moment that the great measure of emancipation 10044
plished, the agitation was renewed, and the s'lita tf 11
Leland became, and is at this instant, perhall:"• 91A t
situation than at almost any former perits'orarti
this because I feel tat the course we then Pd 0)0
coursewrong w
as
?Coenre of justice
tai y not; a
nfi:ir
policy,am acnodn vtiiin:thetaevee Itieoil3l
was both expeeient and salutary. I 4 a
been of that opinion, and also that there "I,ot 00,01
disposition to follow it up by other measure!' pie v
eification of Ireland. From that time v4rit'ulisfe
61
of improvement have been proposed. S"ini
carried, others are under consideratiun, tehobo:
been announced as in a state of preparation.
expo
toet
has not been sufficient to satisfy those wbn e
pacification of Ireland is be eff•cted
Leo f°ll
Accordingly, this Society of Volunteers has
and we are to d that agitation will be continua o, dpi
0,
Parliament has undertaken measures of redre',,. fro
olds employed itself to cure the evils arist%rieoi
sliracn" a*ti
connected with the Church Est.bil.
.0, Are ty
tChheuricolciaeles:jinfrit.inmisttrhaetup)triesie,futi
iGot).
non is not to cease When all these o.l'l' sigtitre,
plished, but when a rept al of_ the 11;e0 00112'
has been granted—(Hear, hear)et la'cehtw other,oc
and'e st
haet efopuluade:dtionin ohf the B