The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-21 00:00:00

MARKET
INTELLIGENCE.
(From the
London New Price Current, June 20.)
StTAet— , importers of West India Sugar
askingOai;a
advance on former rates of 6d per cwt ope-
rated against bsBu2sinhehsaes. The purchases
marketpurchasesclaorseing46inO,
someand
for the week 2 ,
cases rather above prices of last Friday.
RErneED.—To-day home dealers made purchases with
more freedom in Refined Sugar, and prices closed with
firmness at 46s 6d to 49s for low to good grocery lumps.
The market is firm for Crushed Sugar, and a good de-
mand exists for Foreign for shipping; but British met a
slow sale.
MAITRITIIIS.—This afternoon there was no public sale
of Mauritius Sugar, privately, however, some parcels
were sold at higher rates, and holders have confidence.
EAST Lei:q.t.—This afternoon the parcels of Bengal
Sugar sold privately were at full rates, and in some cases
at a small advance for better sorts. At auction 2,040
bags found buyers at 42s to 43s 6d for good and fine
grainy yellow, and 458 bags brown at 28s to 31s for low
to fine soft. Madras is wanted at the former value.
FOREIGN.—To-day there was more desire to operate
in Foreign Sugar for the United Kingdom, and further
purchases were made by exporters at former rates, but
the particulars are not allowed to transpire. The market
closes with a firm tone for all sorts of Foreign, white
Havannah excepted.
MOLASSES.—Prices are not better; there is, however,
rather more business doing; low to fine West India at
13s to 16s, Bengal and Mauritius 12s to 12s 6d, Cuba
and Porto Rico 14s to 15s per cwt; there are several
buyers rather under these rates. Fine Honey is wanted
at 50s to 60s, but other sorts are purchased with cau-
tion at 25s to 45s per cwt.
COFFEE.—To-day a sale of 300 pkgs Jamaica at-
tracted little attention, and prices declined is to 2s,
low mid at 46s to 46s 6d, fine to fine fine ord 41s to
45s 6d, good ord 38a to 40s, and pea berry 58s 6d. Of
Plantation several parcels sold privately at rather better
rates, low mid and mid from 495 to 52s are most in de-
mud. For Native the market is still dull at 36s 6d to
37s 6d per cwt.
COCOA.—Trinidad is wanted, and full rates are offered;
there are however now few parcels in the market; red
has been selling privately at 43s to 47a for ord to fine,
and grey at 36s to 40s. Grenada however met with
little attention, and of 436 bags 25 brls 2 trim at auction
a small part only sold at 35s to 375, and good to fine red
at 38s to 425, being the previous value. Foreign is not
offering at any further reduction, sales are still upon a
small scale. Bahia and Para at 26s to 28s, and Guaya-
quil at 30s per cwt.
TEA.—Prices are still receding for common and good
ordinary Congou, the former selling at 9d to 944, and
bettor at 9f d per lb ; the home trade has been good, and
several shipping orders were executed; there is, however,
an increasing supply, but no further decline is at pre-
sent looked for. In medium to rather strong blackish leaf;
sales are to a fair extent in consequence of 103 to 111 d per
lb having been taken; but good to fine qualities have been
purchased with much caution, although offered at is to
Is 6,1. In Oolong sales have been small, and parcels are
offering at is to is 9d. Fowling is dull of sale at 8d to
9id, but of this sort only a trifling quantity is in the Ines het.
Holders of green are reluctant to sell at any further reduc-
tion ; dealers, however, purchase with caution, and supply
is plentiful; but low and medium sorts are most freely of-
fered fur sale. For scented and Pekoe Teas the rates
taken being rather under last week occasioned opera-
tions to be upon rather a large scale.
SPlCES.—Cassia Lignea remains in small supply, and
is held for 102 e to 105 s per cwe,.but inquiries have been
made. Cassia Buds in small lots realised 105 s to 110 s.
For Cloves there are yet few buyers, and at auction 96
bags Bourbon were taken in at 64d to 6fd per lb.
Penang can be obtained at lOU to Is 3d, and
Amboyna at Bd. Mace met with a fair sale,
first sort 25 5d to 2s 7d, 2nd 2s Id to 2s 3d, 3rds,
Is lld to 2s. Nutmegs continue in good request at the
previous value, and 45 pkgs at auction realised 2s 4d to
2s 8d for ord to mid brown. The rates paid privately
for better kinds are 2s 2d to 3s 9d, and for low to good
limed Is 10d to 2s 63. In Cinnamon sales to a fair
extent have been made; Ceylon, first sort 2s 4d to 3s
6d, second diito is 104 to 2s sd, third and fourth
Is to 2s. Ginger sells more freely for home coasump-
Lion, but at previous moderate rates. At auction 128
pkgs realised 74s to 91s for mid to good mid, and 624
to 70s for ord to good ord, but better sorts are worth
51 to 91. Of African 500 bags were disposed of at 289.
Export sorts of East India are little wanted, and 15s
to 18s is the value. Pimento is rather cheaper; at
public sale, however, 568 bags were all disposed
of, good mid to good went at 4fd to 4-Id, low mid to mid
4id to 4id per lb. Prices ruling moderate for Pepper
occasion a better demand, and privately several transac-
tions have been taken, Malabar 3d to 31d, clean Suma-
tra 3d, and Penang rather dusty 2-ad to 2d. Only one
small parcel has been offered at auction, and consump-
tion is on the increase. Sales in white are upon a more
extended scale at 54d to Bd. Of Cayenne 6 pkgs sold at
is Old to is 2d, but 58 bags Pod were taken in at 58s.
RICE.—To-day East India Rice was much better in
demand, and an advance of 3d per cwt was obtained. At
public sale 2,780 bags 600 pockets Bengal were all sold ;
fine white realised 103 6d to I ls, good lOs to 10. 6d,
mid and good mid 9s to 10s, low 8s 6d, and damaged
53 per cwt.
SPIRITS.—Of Leeward Island Rum several parcels
have been disposed of; holders are also firmer, and obtain
Is 5d to is 6d per gallon proof. A good demand prevails
for East India at Is 3fd to is 4d proof, and at these
rates some parties will not sell. Several transactions
have taken place in Demerara; the prices paid are 21 to
2s 3d for 32 to 40 per cent. overproof. For Jamaica
rates are not higher ; at the same time shippers and
home dealers are more inclined to do business, and a fair
quantity has been sold, consisting chiefly of better sorts.
The valve of plain and mid 30 to 33 per cent.
over proof is 2s 4d to 2s Bd, good 32 to 36 over
23 93 to 33 33, fine 34 to 38 over 3s 4d to 4i 4d
per gallon. Holders of Brandy are unable to obtain
any advance, although there is a good trade doing, and
consumption is better than it was ; but the stock
is yet heavy. Prices for Cognac best brands
of the vintage of 1850 rule at 4s 4d to 4s 6d,
1849 ditto 4s 7d to 4s 9d, 1848 ditto 4s lld to 5s 2d,
1847 ditto 5s 5d to 5. 7d, of der sorts 5s 6d to 7s, infe-
rior kinds 2s 6d to 4s, Bordeaux 2s 24 to 2. 33. The
value of British made Spirit is 9s 5d to 9e 6d; Gin 8.
2d to 8s 3d for 22 per cent under proof; Geneva 18 7d
to is Bd, and fine is 9d to 2s; the demand is, however,
not brisker.
INDIGO.—This afternoon a public sale of 150 serons
Guatemala Indigo went at rather lower rates, and two-
thirds sold, low to good hard strong coppery Cortes
went at is 63 to 3s 3d, with a few mid Sobres 3s 4d to
3s 73.

COCHINEAL —lmporters are still free sellers, and at
the public sales price declined Id per Ib, but 240 bags
were nearly all disposed of; Mexican silvers, low 2s 9d,
middling and good 2s 10d to 2s lid, blacks 3s 4d to
3s 6cl; and Honduras, low to good silvers, 2s 10d to
3s 6d.

SALTPETRE.—There was less demand to-day for rough
Saltpetre, and in some cases rather lower rates are taken.
At auction 707 bags Calcutta soli at 26s 6d to 27s 6d
for mid to good
,6 to 81 per cent refraction.
TALLow.—This afternoon the public sales of 390 pkgs
South American Tallow went at 33s to 36s 9d, and 500
chs Sydney, Sheep 353 9d to 375; Ox 343 6d to 35s 9,1.
OILS —There has been a reduction for Cod; limited
sales have been made at 36/ 103 to 371 per tun;
and for arrival tbcse rates are not obtainable. Ot
Southern the supply is small; the rates paid being 301
to 331 for low to fine. In Pale Seal a good business has
been concluded at 30/ to 301103; but supply
,is on the
increase; other sorts are wanted at 281 to 291 103;
few,, parcels at present are, however, on offer.
°Lperta has been purchased with reluctance ; and on
Headmaster i 3 tir
tue part of holders a desire is evinced to sell fine
American at 831 to 83/ 10, and British 841 to 851.
moderate Seale
the value. much inquired for, and 89/ to 921 is
,nseed Oil transactions have been upon a
c9oboth by shippers and home
dealers; rates
tend downwards, and rule at
323 3d to 323 Gd
however, only a limited
cwt on the spot; there is,
are to be met with for e supply. Few buyers
goZery, and there are sellers at
von, re oast moderate rates are
325. Olive, has been in
however, taken—Galli
sorts at 36/ to 371 ioe pmreg at 381 to 391; other
more ready sale, yet
more attention
rates paid were
price°, tug. Palm finds a
to 28s for fine. Cocoa Nut met Zultktlin at 27s 6d
t_ e_m_and is
from shippers and home dealers; the"
27s to 28s 6,1 for Sydney, and 281 6a
lon and Cochin; there is also a less qua:tlits for Cey-
For Rape Seed Oil the market is firm, and 3(71 ou offer.
per cwt; us.,'T, palo
increasing—hrown has been selling at 31s 6d
333 to 333 6rl; Foreign Refined 343
' an there
is no decrease in supply.

year 1 report
NATIONAL VACCINE ESTABLISHMENT.--The.
for 1851, from this establishment, shows that. in
answer
past
to
79,370 charges of lym
vaccinated,
7,955 applications ; 1240(7 cases were reporkd as
of which 10,025 were vaccinated by the stationary vacci-
nators were supplied in .
in London. Large supplies of lymph were forwarded
to the
.., West Indies. Besides a large and increasing demand
_
fur IYMph for inil:tary stations at home and abroad, ships of
war, prisons, . .
cze . supplies were forwarded to North America,
Australia, New Zealand, the Coast of Africa, the Philippine
1 Islands Tad Hong Kong. The National Establishment had
..l.eoerfunnshed a supply to Egypt, at the request of the
" . 07 and to Baden Baden, at the request of the medical
authorities them. It appears that vaccination has been
01 tensively carried out at Bathurst ; and hopes are enter-
tained that it will spread in the native tribes on the banks
of the Gambia. Ignorance and prejudice in the lower orders
of this country are stated to impede materially the spread of
vaccination.

INAUGURATION OF THE STATUE OF POUSSIN.-
The inauguration of the statue erected by his native town,
Andelys, in memory of the celebrated painter, Nicholas
PouBSill, W 49 celebrated on Sunday with great pomp.

Sir J. PAKINGTON presented a petition from Droit-
wich complaining of the expense of the rural police.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
The dropped notices of motion were re-appointed.
MERCANTILE MARINE ACT.
Mr. `PAWN asked the President of the Board of
Trade when ho would be ready to lay a Bill on the
table for the amendment of the Mercantile Marine Act?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the Bill was nearly ready,
and he hoped to lay it on the table in a few days.
ECCLESIASTIC AL I ITLES.
Mr. SCULLY presented a petition, numerously
signed, from the county of Tipperary against the Eccle-
siastical Titles Bill.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill, Mr.
BERNAL in the chair.
Mr. KEOGH said as Lord J. Russell had promised to
introduce a clause to prevent the Bill being construed
against the synodical action of the Rennin Catholic
Church in Ireland, it was not his intention to move the
proviso to the end of the clause which he had placed on
the paper.
Mr. MONSELL moved the insertion of the following
words to the end of the clause:—" Provided always,
that nothing in this Act contained shall be construed to
interfere with or in any manner to restrict the
free action of the Roman Catholic church in
the United Kingdom in matters of a spiritual
nature." He was sure there was no one in
the House who was not sincerely anxious to avoid those
angry bickerings which had for so many days past di-
vided the people of this country and Ireland
into two hostile camps. The amendment he
proposed would not altogether satisfy the views
which he individually entertained on the subject, but he
could not conceive it possible how any Hon. Members.
who were really desirous to maintain religious
liberty. could oppose it. He knew there were
Hon. Members opposite whose vote he could not expect
on this occasion, but he was unable to conceive any
grounds on which the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government could consistently refuse to give him his
support. It was evident to everyone who had paid any
attention to the discussions in the House, that while on the
one hand the opponents of the Bill declared in a dis-
tinct and solemn manner that they had no desire to
interfere directly or indirectly with the temporal
:authority of the Queen, on the other, it was
equally clear that those Honourable Members
who supported the Bill distinctly stated that they ,
had no wish to interfere with the spiritual action of the
Roman Catholic Church. Under those circumstances it
seemed possible that the two parties might come to
some sort of agreement upon the question which
now divided them. The question was this—who was
to decide what is spiritual and what is not spiritual?
Now, the proposition w hich he made would have the
effect of leaving the decision of that question entirely
and absolutely with the civil courts. If it were
carried, it would not be for the Roman Catholics
to decide what was spiritual and what was temporal_
the decision of that question would fall solely within
the jurisdiction of our ,civil courts of law. It might be
said, perhaps, that great litigation would arise if such a
course were adopted, but he had only to appeal
to three great authorities against the truth of that as-
sertion. Grattan distil] ctly said, the statement that the
Roman Catholic Church in any way interfered with
temporal matters was the calumny of a scolding
sect.—(Hear.) The Rev. Sidney Smith asserted,
also, that in all his experience he never knew a single in.
stance in which the spiritual power had encroached
on the temporal punier, though during the time
Sidney Smith alluded to there was a Roman Ca-
tholic hierarchy in Ireland. Lord Plunkett, again,
said on the occasion of the Roman Catholic Emancipa-
tion Bill debate in des House of Lords, that though
during the previous th:irty years the most acute minds
had made the most searching inquiry, they never
found a single instance in which the spiritual power
of the Pope had interfe red with the temporal interests
of the people of this realm. He would leave the motion
in the hands of the Id ouse, trusting that it would be
agreed to in a spirit of conciliation.
The SOLICI roR.G.ENERAL said that he should be
sorry if any expressio n should fall from the Govern-
ment indicative of an, thing else but that conciliating
feeling to which the. Hon. Gentleman had alluded.
The Hon. Gentleman must, however, remember
that the question which. he had raised was one which
had been before the House several times during the
long discussion which they had had on the Bill. The
Hon. Member had proposed one himself of a similar
nature.—(Hear, hears) The answer then given,
which seemed to anti afy the Committee, was that
in reality if any spit itual purpose were pointed
out which would be lists rfered with by this clause, it
would be most desi ruble they should pay attention
to the subject, and ends eivour to devise a means to pre-
vent such interference. But no such purpose had been
pointed out in the course of the debate either by the
Honourable Gentleman, himself or any other Honourable
Member, except that the Bill would interfere with
ordination, and there fore with the sacrament of
marriage. Now it had been pointed out, then, that the
functions of bishops diti not depend upon the titles held
by them, but upon their ordination. And in fact since the
year 1829 ordination, ill id marriage, and all other sacra-
ments, had been going •on with as much freedom as pos-
sible. That being in reality the only suggestion pointed
out with any interfer ?I TO which the Bid would effect,
he thought it was rath or too much to ask the Committee
to consent to a clause • w hich would only introduce con-
fusion and difficulties i n explaining the cause.
Mr. MONSELL coicteinusd is maintain that this Bill
would interfere with the action of vicars-apostolic, and
he remarked that the a.v gument of the Solicitor-General
did not touch upon the point at all.
Mr. SCULLY said the speech of the Solicitor-
General applied only to the action of the 10th
George IV. This Bin , however, went much further
than that Act, for it rendered illegal the introduction of
every bull from the Cot art of Rome, and therefore inter-
fered with the cerement sof ordination. No bishop here-
after could be ordains d in Ireland, and every act done
by a bishop would be it legal.
Mr. SADLEIR was exceedingly sorry that the Go-
vernment had not acquiesced in the amendment. Those
iitttwoemreee r
tihtee
vrieewadsyotfo
tmhaekemiannisytevre,rbboatl
the
theeorfaapetritoo
and ho would not thi .refore allow it to pass under
pnwosasies the Minis ter was opposed to it in principle, nd
first
o el
End
dy circumstances.once
eor
twieobee nTrpurpo eOased
was under discussion, but they were told then that the
swimhille ar
the amendment s s
e
first clause was purelt, • of a declaratory character, and
the time had not the n arrived when such an amend-
ment could be; enesi eained. Now Government bad
often announced th at they had no desire to
athe. at
ehde sidi t an
be dangerous to
interfere with the s spiritual affairs of the
Roman Catholic Chur ch ; but what they laid down as a
precept they were met disposed to put in practice, or
theyaid h
a would o n 110
tare; istoed General it would
us tAanditoet po
rt
eptehryei s;
it:
em,ci n
hd
em,eaa nu ts.e But,
Roman Catholic at tes se' td u e a i dff srent and a larger
meanine to the
tc ten spiritutual functions than the
Protestant; but h
l':-cr tent take the liberty of denying that
assertion, which
able and Learned G was convinced neither the Honour-
the Government, e, zdleman, nor any other supporter of
little to hi what , tosterrapr.ove: However, it mattered
rnately came to wet thisin:Litton the Committee ulti-
the majority. of hi, eseb;os, ~,!, he
as
welt
as
es man Catholic fellow-subjects
were determined tle it the present system of
verning their Chi tech should
go-
They were determi: led that n • undergo no change.
d force ° Bill, however stringent
its provisions, shoul f them to return stem
of the 3, s
of bishops apostolic. ,
Mr. J. O'CONN ELL said, if he remembered rightly,
the Speech from th, :Throne, while it recommieded legis-
lation on this subjs ce also advised the Hou4 not to in-
terfere with the religious liberty of the people. Now if this
proviso were not a' opted would the House be complying

with that requeot? Certainly not; and as the Bill was
calculated to give rise to immense difficulties if passed
in its present shape,he trusted the Government would re-
consider its decision. At all events, if they could not
adopt tho exect words of the proviso, let them
accede to its spirit, and frame some paragraph of their
own by which the spiritualities of the Roman Catholic
Church would be left untouched.
Colonel RAWDON said the simple object of the pro-
viso was to protect Roman Catholics against the opera-
tion of the Bill in matters purely spiritual, and he had
failed
from the Government failed in hearing anything
show-
ing that its introduction would impair the efficiency of
the Bill. The Attorney-General had said the B:11
would not interfere with spiritual matters, and he (Col.
Rawdon) thought it was only right the Government
should give the Roman Catholics the benefit of a doubt
by agreeing to the proviso. He should support the
motion of the Hon. Member.
Lord J. RUSSELL explained that what he said was
that the question involved in the motion had been
decided before in the House. L cries of " Hear, hear.") It was perfectly cl(earoud that the in-
troduction of the words to the end of the clause would
lead to great disputes and litigation, and would in
fact take away from Parliament the right to decide what
was spiritual and what was temporal, and leave that
right so to decide to the courts of law. It was on those
grounds that he opposed the motion.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the proviso e
Agsi .
160
••• ----118 Colonel SIBTIIOiP moved the addition of the nstfitai .
o.r.ty, against
.• 42
ag..
fol-
lowing words :—" Aidshall further be imprisoned until
banished from the United Kingdom of Great
the
payment of the aforesaid sum of
the said sum of five hundred pounds shall have been
sPBoaroiidtla.;isrlhaanaldnldh leaaefrtberland &ring the period of his natural life."
He
wands dun id not
erous know Caelinal Wideman, but he certainly
g mat; and it would be all the better if they got rid of him, fir one black sheep was quite suffi-
cient to spoil the flock. Not having any hope, how-
ever, of passing the clause, he should not press it to a
division.
Mr. MOORE said he certainly thought that if the
commencementoct ur idmeew f Cardinal
i chthe
of
f IV
Nobleth e sLeeosniidao,nni.nrh ehaaidsl ye pwenais opening
described,f pttehheaecthpmeanat gni-
a thelt
y
suggested by the Ron. and Gallant Member was certainly
more reasonable thin that provided by the Noble Lord
himself, and of the :wo, if he had to choose between the
two, he certainly should divide with the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member.
The proviso was then withdrawn.
On the question teat the clause stand part of the Bill,
Mr. REYNOLDS could not allow the clause to pass
without making ondor two observations on tip subject.
The Hon. Member fir the county of Limerick had asked
the House to declare that the Catholic Church should
be free in spiritual natters, but the Noble Lord, with a
majority of 160 to 42, bad declared that it. should not
pwohsiscehs s He took this, the last opportunity
red to him with respect to this
clause, to declare that it was a repeal of the most valu-
libbeertyo.39'
able portion of the sasancipation Act. It was a clause
wouldthat
of pains and penalties against the Catholics of Ireland,
and was an insult which they would never forgive
either the present Whig Government or any of their suc-
cesors professing similar politics. Since he last addressed
the Committee on the subject he had spent ten days in
Ireland, where the indignation of all parties, clergy and
laity, was so strong against the Government for their
having introduced this Bill, that they declared that they
had ceased to have any confidence in the Government,
and that they had 100 all hope of obtaining justice from
the present House of Commons. He had been autho-
rised to make that declaration, and he should not con-
fine it to Catholics, but included in it Episcopalians,
Presbyterians, and tie liberal men of emery religions
sect in Ireland, all of whom were of opinion that the
present measure was a step backward in the
cause of religious liherty. The majority of the house
was opposed to him, but ho believed all the argument
was on his side. No answer had been attempted to the
memorable speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Ripon on this sill. The feeling out of doors was,
that the Bill was uncalled for and calculated to create
discoid and dissatisfaction among her Majesty's sub-
jects. That being also his own belief be, in the name
of his Catholic countrymen, and at the eleventh hour, re-
newed his protest against the whole of the measure.
Dr. POWER said that though four months had
elapsed since the introductiou of the Bill they were as
much in the dark as to the effect which it would have as
they were on the day of its introduction. The discus-
sion had done little beyond drawing forth differences of
opinion with regard to its provisions. Surely, then, the
better course would be to refer it to a Select Committee,
in order that it might be licked into some shape, and be
made consistent in its clauses. If he could believe that
the issuing of the rescript by the Pope was, as had been
stated by the Noble Lord, but a part of a general scheme
for the suppression of the liberties of Europe, he should
have voted for the Bill. The Noble Lord had not, how-
ever, supported his assertion by any facts or by any
reasoning, and he thought it was unfair in the Noble
Lord to throw into the discussion an ingredient of that
kind in order to catch a fees votes.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
......150
Against it ...
... 35
Majority in favour of the clause ...-115
On clause 3,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he wished to call the at-
tention of the House to the action which the measure
would have on the voluntary churches within the king-
dom, and on the Scotch Church in particular. It ap-
peared to him that the Scotch Church should not be pre-
vented assuming titles for the purpose of its own inter-
nal government. The Bill as it stood, instead of its
being a Bill far resisting the Pope's aggression, was in
itself an aggression against every voluntary church.
The danger which the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government feared was nat provided against by that
Bill. The real cause of the danger lay in the control
which the State exercised ever the Established Church,
and as long as that connexion between the Church and
State existed so long would the danger complained of
remain. The,clergy of that Church were too indepen-
dent of their people, and many conscientious persons
were obliged to` secede from that Church to establish a
church for themselves, and it.was principally on that
account, and to secure for such persons perfect reli-
gious liberty, that he took the liberty of proposing the
amendment of which he had given notice. He wished
to see every Christian community that might deem it
advisable to establish an episcopacy for themselves
protected in their rights. He maintained that true
religious liberty could not be held as long as the
•ordinances, the doctrines, and the faith of the Church
were under the authority of the State. The Queen
was the nominal head of the Church, but she c ,uld do
nothing without the advice of her Ministers and Parlia-
ment. The true principle would be to allow every church
to regulate herself. He did not bring forward his motion
:for the benefit of any particular church, bat to secure
the right of freedom of opinion to every man in the com-
munity. The Honourable Member concluded by moving
'his amendment, which was, to expunge all the words in
.the third clause after the word "place," in line 2, page
:3, and insert the following words:—" Used as the desig-
;nation of office in such church, or to the assumption or
else of the title of archbishop, bishop, or dean, taken by
:any person solely as the designation of his office, for the
government of any voluntary church according to its
rules and usages, and not claiming or assuming to have
law, in respect of such title, any jurisdiction, au-
o hority, or preeminence in the United Kingdom."
Sir G. GREY said the proposed amendment would in
o ne sense be ambiguous, and in another objectionable.
'lChe words would go to neutralise the Bill altogether,
i f it was meant that any Roman Catholic bishop should
take the title of any place at present forbidden by
t he Bill.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, in explanation, he wished
) give the Catholic or any other church the voluntary
9 ower of assuming the titles of archbishop, bishop, or
I ean, for their own regulation.
The Committee having divided on the amendment, the
is umbers were—
Ayes .., 33
Noes ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 118
Majority against the amendment
.. —B5
The question that clause 3 stand part of the Bill was
Iti hen put.
Mr. KEOGH said the proviso was not originally in
tale Bill exempting Scotch bishops.
After a few words from the Earl of ARUNDEL and
3 URREY,
Sir G. GREY said there was nothing in that clause
;riving them a right to assume those titles.
Mr. GLADS TONE said there was a very material
distinction to be drawn on that discussion between the
le ishops who held their titles under a foreign authority
se ad those who did not. Although that clause took away
as Impwhat of the intolerant character of the Bill, he
eleoulfl like to see it extended to other bishops besides
tihe Scotch, who did hold their titles under a foreign
teuthority. He might be told there were none such
mow, but could it be said that that would always be the
case ?

Sir G. GREY said the measure was to meet existing
(mtses, not imaginary
)ton. Gpntleman. ones, as suggested by the Right
Mr. OSWALD eacol the territorial titles of bishops
htad been used in Scotland since 1721, and •therefore it
11 as erroneous to suppose that they had only been called
it to requisition within the last few years. •
'Mr. GLADSTONE did not think that Parliament had
imny right to interf9re in that matter except on the ground
sre inconvenience or danger. They here placed restric-
tions on the principle of religious liberty, but had not
shown on what grounds they did so.
Mr. REYNOLDS said that as that was an emanci•
pitting clause he would not vote against it; but if a divi-
sion took place he would leave the House, as he was de-
termined not to give his suffrage in favour of any clause ,
oe that Bill.

The clause was then agreed to without a division.
Mr. S. CR 1 WFORD then moved a clause to the effect
that the Bill should not extend to Ireland. Be thought
tl^iere were very good reasons for the adoption of that
proposal. The act of aggression against wbic h the Bill
was directed had no connexion whatever with that coun-
try, end had been expressly confined to England. The
Ministers had withdrawn certain clauses of the mea-
sure, as originally introduced, in order that tibey might
not interfere with the reasonable exercise of the juris-
diction of the Roman Catholic Bishops in Ire land; but
the most eminent lawyers differed upon the point
whether the measure, as it then stood, would not still
seriously affect that jurisdiction. They proposed to
prevent Roman Catholic Bishops from taking the titles
of any sees. But as a particular sea was indrspensable
to the ministration of a Roman Catholic Bishop, such a
provision was equivalent to depriving Roman Catholics
that
Established had
x e
altogether of the right to have bishops. He .woul,l re-
mind
ur c the
Committeere Indand the Parliament
eh uil
a
alreadyt
in pur-
sued a
hn different system of legislation for the Es tablished
Cthil

country. They had abolished the bishoprics in Ireland;
they had pat an end to the Church cess there; and they
had removed one-fourth of the tithes; but they had
adopted none of those measures in England. They had,
not, therefore, maintained the principle of a united
Church in the two countries; and the reason why they
had not maintained it was that the Established Church
in England was a national Church, while the Estab-
lished Church in Ireland was the Church of a small
section only of the community. lie would tell them
that the extension of the measure to Ireland would de-
stroy peace and harmony in that country; that it would
compel her Majesty's Government to maintain the union
by means solely of a large standing army; and then it
would be impossible to carry out that reduction in the
public expenditure which the people of England were
so anxious to see established. For these reasons he
earnestly called upon the Committee to accede to his
proposal.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he thought that
the adoption of that clause would render the Bill liable
to the objection of proceeding upon the grossest incon-
sistency. The principle of the measure, as advocated
by the Government, was that it was inconsistent with the
prerogatives of the Crown that a foreign potentate should
assume a right to create dignities and jurisdictions in
these realms, such as the Pope had attempted to create
by the rescript establishing the new bishopric of West-
minster. That office was, in Ireland as well as in Eng-
land, an infraction of that arrangement which had been
come to in the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act with
the approbation of the whole Roman Catholic body. It
was true that that Act did not specifically prevent the
assumption by Roman Catholic prelates of episcopal
titles which did not belong to any bishop of the Estab-
lished Church; but he believed that its object and spirit
had been the prevention of any assumption by Roman
Catholics of titles of sees in the United Kingdom. Now
what would be the consequence of exempting Ireland
from the operation of the Bill? The consequence would
be, that while it would be unlawful to receive in Eng-
land bulls from the Pope conferring such titles, the re-
ception of similar bulls would be perfectly
legal in Ireland. A great majority of the Legisla-
ture and of the people of these kingdoms regarded the
recent act of the Pope as an aggression, and, he might
even say, as an insult; and how could it be pretended
that that which was an aggression and an insult in
England could be regarded as perfectly harmless and
legal in Ireland? The plain meaning and the adoption
of the clause proposed by the lion. Member for Rochdale
would be that the Queen's prerogative did not extend to
Ireland. It should be remembered that the Act of 1829
applied to Ireland as well as to England, or rather that
it bad been framed with a special reference to Ireland.
The object of the present Bill was to carry out the Act
of 1829 in its spirit as well as in its letter, and to pre-
vent an evasion of the solemn compact into which the
Roman Catholic body had then entered. He could see
nothing in the condition of Ireland which would justify
her exemption from the Bill. It was said that the
Roman Catholics constituted the great mass of the popu-
lation in Ireland while they formed only a small
minority in this country. But if, as was pretended by
the opponents of this measure, the sacred principle of
toleration were violated in that instance, there could be
nothing to justify its violation in the case of a small
body of persons any more than in the case of a large
population. The only ground on which the exemption
of Ireland could be urged was the number of Roman
Catholics in that country; but ho could not admit that
numbers had anything to do with the principle. There-
fore looking at the general principle of the Bill, and the
compact which had been entered into, he could see no
reason why Ireland should not be included. He did not
admit that they were dealing with the spiritual affairs of
the Roman Catholics, or infringing the sacred laws of
toleration, and for these reasons he opposed the adoption
of the clause.
Mr. ROCHE believed the Bill to be as unjust to Eng-
land as it was to Ireland, and as regarded the latter
country it was certainly one of the most unjust measures
ever contemplated by any Government. The Hon. and
Learned Solicitor-General was too good a lawyer to say
that this Bill was a mere repetition of the Emancipation
Act, or that it did not extend the reetricive clauses of
that law. And since the understanding upon which the
Emancipation Act had been passed had been so much
commented on, be begged to remind the Committee that
the Duke of Wellington, in his speech on that Act, ad-
mitted that the provision with respect to the assumption
of titles in Ireland was introduced merely to satisfy some
seraphs of a few Right Reverend Prelates. Lord
Malmesbury, a great opponent of emancipation, said he
looked upon the restrictive clause as regarded titles in
Ireland as a farce, and worse than a farce. But as re-
ference had been so often made to the spirit in which
the Act was passed, might he not reter to the spirit
in which it had been carried out? Was it anything
like the spirit of this Bill ? Why, they had
passed Acts recognising these very titles in Ireland.
They had carried out the Emancipation Act in a
spirit more liberal and generous than that in which it
wes passed, and yet here they were introducing a Bill of
pains and penalties against the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land. He could not look on the extension of the Bill to
Ireland in the same philosophical spirit as the Hon. and
Learned Solicitor-General. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman was playing a great game, and so was he;
but the difference was, that he had a stake in the result,
while the lion. and Learned Gentleman had none. He
warned the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
and the country that they were engaging in a very seri-
ous struggle. He gave the Noble Lord credit for the
utmost sincerity, but he did not know the country, nor
did he take the proper means of informing himself. If
he insisted so much upon principle, why did the Noble
Lord not extend the Bill to the colonies? He was afraid
to do so. The colonies were thousands of miles distant.
Ireland certainly was not far off, but he advised them to
count her numbers, and if they forced the Roman Catho-
lic clergy, who had always been the great peace pre-
servers hitherto, to conspire against the authority of
England, Ireland would be more dangerous than all her
colonies. Judging from the meetings held in this coun-
try, he did not believe that any great desire existed to
extend the measure to behind, with respect to which
there had been no aggression. If they wished to pre-
serve tranquillity in that country, and enable her to de-
velope her resources, it would be utter and perfect mad-
ness to extend this Bill to Ireland; it would be worse
than a crime, it would be a great political blunder.
Mr. G. LI.CA.VENDISEI said the very reasons which
induced him to support the Bill as regarded England
compelled him to resist its extension to Ireland. In le-
gislating on a subject like this, they were bound to look
to the feelings of the great majority of the people.
Though, perhaps, the same loyalty and attachment to
the;Constitution which distinguished the English Roman
Catholics could not be extended to their Irish co-reli-
gionists, still be held that it would be impolitic to ex-
tend the Bill to Ireland, where, in truth, the trans-
planted Established Church had taken no root in the
affections of the people, and he would therefore sup-
port the clause exempting Ireland from the operation of
the Bill.
Mr. CLAY said, if the Government of the day had
refused to legislate on the question the people would
have found another Government to o r y out their
wishes, and the Protestant and natiosal spirit of the
people would have kept the quarrel alive. lie believed
also, that to extend the Bill to Ireland would, on the
other hand, rouse a spirit in that country which would
equally tend to perpetuate the quarrel; and being ani-
mated with an anxious desire to see the discussion
brought to an early termination, he would support the
proposed clause.
Mr. LAWLESS vindicated the loyalty of the Irish
Roman Catholics, and contended that the conduct of tbe
Government with respect to this Bill was calculated. to
destroy the kindly feeling which the relief measures gad
engendered amongst the different religious bodies in
Ireland. The Bill of the Noble Lord bad driven the
people of Ireland back a century—to those times of bi-
gotry and intolerance when a Roman Catholic was de-
nied the common rights of citizenship when upon the
ancient gates of Bandon was written the following in-
scription :

" Turk, Jew, or Atheist
May enter here, but not a Papist."
A wag chalked up—
. Whoever wrote these lines, he wrote them well,
The same are written on the gates of hell."
Even if the voice of England demanded such legislation
for this country, ho denied that that voice should be per-
mitted to crush the religion of the, people of Ireland.
The Right Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Ex-
chter equer having stated his intention to offer the most
de mined opposition to the Irish spirit question, had
shown the Irish Members an example that they were
likely to profit by in respect to this Bill. He warned
thpresNs e ols'e Lord rs.inst the danger of attempting to re-
the religious'feelings of the people. History al,
f filled them many examples of the evil consNuences
produced by such a course. He hell in his hanct a very
able pamphlet, written bY a Mr. Andrew Carew
O'Dwyer, an Irish barrister, and a gentlemen who was
formerly a Member of that Fiouse, and from this pam•
phlet he would read an extract describing the causes
and effects of the in,urrection in Bel, ium in September,
1830 The Hon. Gentleman having quoted at conside-
rable length from the document in question, said he
thought the Noble Lord would do well to reflect upon
the dangerous coarse which he was pursuing--a course
that would most probably lead to the same serious con-
sequences as had happened in Belgium.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said that the question before
them was simply whether this Bill shall be applied to
Ireland; and the important consideration with them was
not meoely its temporal application to that country, but
as the Hon. Member for Hull observed, whether there
would be a subsidence of this agitaion. Now, this
agitation never would subside—it never could subside—
because the aggression on the Part of a Roman Catholic
Government, backed by all the members of that creed,
was still continued, and they had shown their determi-
nation to bring the people of that country back from
o
the state of heathenism in which they were sunk,
complete submission to the See of Rome.--(Laughter.) t
The Roman Catholic Members had chosen a
hundred
th the
and a hundred times to throw back iu our
tc,rm " aggression." That, however,
sub-
ject at present before them; but when it was,
was not
he
wouldteehae
be able to prove what he was now satyien
gef.Neither
question
would he be tempted to enter upon h
disloyalty. He could quote rathert.7oalrtse
was said that
expressions
that had been used upon this subjec
for there was
they could not have a dividedn loyalty,Members, it appeared,
no such thing. But certain
. Huth; Pope of Rome, and
had an undivided loyalty
to
oh
all sovereiens who inter-
were disposed to say,
" 1n
cries of " Read, read.")
fared with his rights."—(Loud:mb —(Cries of 'many Ys,
No, no," said the ta;bers.) There were so mn
yes," from the Irish
not lik,e to feaci.—(Laughte )
Pio Nonos that he dui
These persons say that they re.pected the au.hoizty Of
the vicar of Christ infinitely mote than any rau,y Act of
Parliament.
Mr. REYNOLDS—I-Tear, bc"
Mr. 1-T
. DRUMMOND then proceAed to read from
a paper he held in his bond:—" We cona;der par Qlll3-

glance to the Roman throne first of all. At an in-
finitely lower distance is our loyalty to any earthly eove-
reign compared with our devote:d loyalty to the Holy See.
Perish a thousand kings and queens and parliament
rather than it should be in the slightest degree opposed.
As the spiritual exceeds the temporal in importance so
this loyalty to the Holy See transcends that which we
pay to the Queen of Englund."—(Loud cries of " Name,
name," from the Irish Members.) They had no right
to have any name.—(" Oh, oh," from tho same
quarter.) As a matter of courtesy he would
give the name, but he would not be induced to do so from
compulsion. It was a Roman Catholic who used this
language.—(" Oh, oh," from several Irish Members.)
Mr. O'FLAIIERTY here rose to order. Ho said he
believed he had a right to call to order the Hon. Meree'oer
for Surrey, who, in his usual style and good feeling
towards the Roman Catholic Members of that Howe,
had quoted written paragraphs, which they were induced
to believe were written by some Catholic Member of
that House, or some great Catholic authority. He now
found that the Hon. Member was quoting from some
newspaper that was never before heard of. Is was any-
thing but fair, just, and (if the rules of the House would
permit him to say so) it was anything but honourable, to
make these quotations.—(Loud cries of " Order, order,"
from the Chairman and several Hon. Members.) He
felt that he was not to be put down.—(Chair, and order.)
The CHAIRMAN said an expression had dropped--
he hoped inadvertently—from the Hon. Member, that
he was not to be put down. He hoped that did not apply
to the Chairman.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. H. INGLIS said that when the Hon. Member
for Galway had called the Hon. Member for Surrey to
order, he should have been prepared to specify some in-
stance in which the Hon. Member for Surrey had de-
viated from the proper course of debate. He submitted
to the Hon. Chairman whether the Hon. Member for
Galway did specify a single instance in which the Hon.
Member for Surrey had violated the rules of that House,
or the proper feeling that should actuate him.—(Hear.)
Mr. KEOGH said that the Hon. Member for Galway
had, he believed, been called to order by the Hon. Mem-
ber for the University of Oxford. He did not see bow
he had violated the rules of that House. The lion.
Member for Galway had said that if the rules of ,ho
House permitted him, he would say that the conduct or
observations of the ROD. Member for Surrey were any
thing but honourable. All Hon. Members who had been
in that House for the last twelve months must be aware
that evasive expressions were constantly used for the
purpose of avoiding the coming within the' violation of
the rules of that House. He had seen much more flagrant
violations of the House declared not to be disorderly;
and he confessed he was not disposed tamely to submit
to the Hon. Member fur Galway being called to order
for what he had said, when he recollected the extraordi-
nary language that the Hon. Member for Surrey was
permitted to use some few weeks back.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Member for
Galway had used no argument to prove that the Hon.
Member for Surrey was out of order, It must be evi-
dent to the Committee that the Hon. Member for Sur-
rey had said nothing that was disorderly.
Mr. SADLEIR said that the Noble Lord must be
aware that the Hon. Member for Galway had been
called to order for using disorderly expressions.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY said that he had sat down in obe-
dience to the chair. Ho begged to inform the Noble
Lord and the Chairman that he had not used any ex-
pressions he was not prepared to hold by. He believed
that he had used an expression contravening the accu-
racy of the statement of the Hon. Member for Surrey.
He was sure that he had not said anything that was a
violation of the rules of the House. If be did so he
would at once apologise. But he would not permit the
Hon. Member for Surrey or any other Hon. Member to
use expressions against his religion or loyalty without
standing up in his defence, and maintaining his rights.—
(Cheers from the Irish Members.)
The CHAIRMAN said that when the Hon. Member
for Galway rose he considered that he was about to
speak to a point of order. He did not immediately col-
lect from his speech as to what part of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Surrey's observations he took exception.
Mr. O'FLALIERTY said he complained of the Hon.
Member fur Surrey quoting a statement which appeared
by what had fallen from him to have been made by cer-
tain Members of that House. As he (Mr. O'Flaaerty)
objected to its going forth to the public that such a state-
ment wee made by any Hon. Member of that House, he
interrupted the Hon. Member for Surrey in the course
he was taking, fur the purpose of letting the House and
the country know that the documents quoted were such
as ought not to be referred to without the name of the
author beiute mentioned with them.
Mr. DISRAELI apprehended that the simple case
was this—the Hon. Member for Galway, supposing that
the Honourable Member fsr Surrey had made certain
statements without sufficient authority, thought that he
had ected somewhat disorderly. It was a fair topic for
the Honourable Member for Galway to reply to in a fair
discussion with the Hon. Member far Surrey. The Hon.
Member for Surrey might have made an indiscreet state-
ment—he gave no opinion upon that point; but as tar as
he could form an opinion upon the matter, he was not
disorderly.
Mr. REYNOLDS said, in speaking to the point of
order, as a Roman Catholic Member of that House,
he had no objection whatever to the reading of any
documents by the Honourable Member for Surrey, no
matter what the contents might be, even if they were
grossly insulting to his creed. But it was only fair
and reasonable that the gentleman who reads them
should state from what source they emanated. He
thought that the Honourable Member was quoting from
authentic documents, which were to bind him as a Ca-
tholic. —(Cries of " Order, order.")
The CHAIRMAN said it was competent for the Hon.
Member for Dublin to rise in his place to order, but be
mutt excuse him fur saying that he could not see in what
point the speech of the Hon. Member for Surrey was
disorderly.
Mr. DRUMMOND then resumed his speech. He
said he had not the smallest intention of raising a dis-
cussion of that sort. The Hon. Member for Derby, in
his speech, had drawn a distinction between the loyalty
of the Roman Catholics in England and in Ireland.
There was not much in that, one way or the other; but
then the Hon. Member who answered him had made a
large demand upon the credit that ought to be given to
the loyalty of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and be
(Mr. Drummond) having these documents in his pocket,
he could not resist the temptation of referring to them.
It the opinions he had quoted were anything like loose
assertions he would not have cared about them; but
they were the well-considered expressions of a Roman
Catholic newspaper. But that was not his only autho•
rity: he had also another document, written by a Roman
Catholic priest.—(.' Read, read," from the Irish Mem-
bers.) He was not going to read it. It was published
in the MLitt by " my dear Lucas," the recognised autho-
rity of the Roman Catholic bishops. He would
speak no further upon this point—ho was going
to !peak upon the point immediately at issue—namely,
whether this Bill was to apply to Ireland or ot.
Ile believed that the question would not rest thenre.
He thought it was important not to permit them-
selves to be irritated to do what was unjust. It was
foolish to suppose that there was any danger in Ireland
to arise from the Popish bulls. As it was said by Lord
Mansfield, " In times of danger weak men were induced
to go beyond the necessity of the case, in order to avert
it."-- This country had been no doubt grossly insulted;
that insult had been continued and reiterated day by day
and from one end of the country to the other. What had
been done to the Protestant people of this country had,
however, not been done to Ireland. When the Noble
Lord brought forward this measure, ho satisfied neither
himt eh. (Mr. Drummond) nor those who were opposed
to all legislation on the subject. But the Noble Lord said
he would only do what he thought was necessary.
Now the Papal aggression and the Papal insolence
were confined to England alone. No change whatever
was made by them with regard to Ireland. If the Govern-
ment had acted in accordance with his views they would
not have extended this Bill to Ireland, as the Cathodes
of that country did not really deserve to be dealt with by
any measure of severity. The truth of the matter was
this—the Government would not grapple with the great
grievance, and that was the Irish Church. He was not
going to help them out of it—he could not do it. But
there was the pinching place. Unless they fairly met
this difficulty they would still be pressed down with it.
Let not the Government, from any provocation received
in England, be tempted to carry into Ireland a measure
which was unjust as far as that country was concerned.
Mr. ANSTEY asked why the Government did not
propose to extend the Bill to the colonies as well as to
Ireland? Why not to the transmarine regions under
the dominion of the British Crown as well as to the sier
country? The Pope had attempted to take away from
the Roman Catholics in England those rights which they
laws of the
had enjoyed under the pre-existing canon
Church, sanctioned by acts of Parliament;
rights of
had
e
not cenamitted a similar aggression on theurni
on
which
Irish Roman Catholics. Oa the same g
the Noble Lord exempted the Episcopalians Catholics of Ire-
he ought to have exempted thhßhmi
la.
hro in Scotland,
.1 When a Papal
land from the operation of this
ni3
it
aggression was made in Ireland 1815,i_•ait),,andh priests rwi
ea ss
attemptt opposeds ufl
ther
.
by Mr. O'Connell, the Catholic I
Ire-
land; and Rome had to withdraw from
independence
Pope then made of interfering with
of
h had been circulates the Catholic Church in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) lie
re-
ferred to a document r amongst
to the resc
orfehlk, and not It
persons
t was ad-
the Catholic laity advevihseic
dressed to the Duke o
signed it, because the English Roman Catholics were
in the same
averse to have their sentiments brought before the
public. Cardinal Wiseman had failed
object; and those who had since then
did so for the purpose of showing,
put their names
to, documents
not their approval of the rescript, but their dislike of
the scurrilous abuse that had been poured on their
clergy and faith. lie denounced the late insolent aggres-
Rowe, and, therefore, he pidirothvedt
sion of the Court of
of the first clause; but he at the same time decliteit:
the Bill was totally inapplicable to Ireland.—(Near.)
tie a
The consequence of this legislation would
be that it
would give support in Ireland to the Primate, Dr. Cul-
len, and his small majority in the Synod of Thurles. As
the Bill deserved to be made practicable he appealed to
the Noble Lord to exclude Ireland la the Bt tl.
Mr. WEC'eG PROiSER considered the Bill Ito be to-
tally unjustifieble. Upon political grounds it was ob-
vious that Ireland ought to be excluded from the Bill.
Mr. 1' oor
- • 41) was o-,pos, ci to the extension of the Bill
to Ireland.
Lord J. RUSSELL had to say a very few words on
this subject. He owned that it appeared to him to be
impossible, if they were to proceed with this Bill, I,r the
House not to include Ireland within its provisions.—
(Hear, hear.) The prerogative of the Crown had been
infringed. They must presume that it had been so, if
they approved of this Bill. Th if the prerog of the Crown had been infringed, ten,
hey could not ati
say tve
hat the would prevent that being done in England which
they would permit to be done in Ireland. If the inde-
pendence of the nation had been assailed, then they
would not say they would prohibit it in England and


permit it to be done without punishment in Ireland. It
wag, in fact, impossible logically to defend this measure
unless Ireland was included in this Bill.—(Hear.) It al)-
peered to him that the sthoe of the arguments ot those
who were opposed to the Bill went not so much against
his Bill, which merely extended, in a very
trifling de-
gree, the provisions of the present law, as they were di-
reeled against the existing law itself; because if it were
right to allow Reiman Catholics to call themselves Arch-
bishops of Dublin, or of Armagh, or of Cashel, or
Bishop of Limerick—if it were right to do that, then,
in order to accomplish such an object, it would be neces_.
- •
sary to repeal tee provisions of the Act of George IV
—Mean) That Bill prohibited Roman Catholics from
taking titles from places in which there were not now
existing bishops of the Established Church. The ope-
ration of that part of the Bill was not a very great
extension of that provision which was already to be
found in the statute book--naciely the Act of 10 Geo.
IV. The whole of this argument, then, as regarded
practice was not an argument against including Ireland,
but, it was an argument for the repeal of that which was
of
now the Jaw.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen did not
10
prove their case at all by asserting that the Act
had the
eGoenot.ralrVy..
wltaawa
naotanpuAtnitn
ofionrcper.ovilisioenamoafinwtahmicehd
always been respected. Now, he said that those who
objected to the provisions of that Act—the 10th G e .
IV.—should not insist upon the amendment, but callforo
a repeal of that statute; and if they did that, then tb
whole question would be before them. As the matter
stood, it was more a question to legislate upon than
than the law stood as to the prohibition of the assnthea.
tion of titles. It was the prohibition of the aseumpdtio to
further
question of practice. The Bill went very little
of the titles in Ireland the same as it was propose
do with regard to England. They could not say that
if
a person went to Ireland, bringing in a reueript, asn e m__
ing, for instance, to be a Bishop of Galway, that
might do so without any notice being taken ot it.
bees it
would be inconsistent to do that, the House could hardly
omit Ireland.—(Hear.)
t to the
that
Mr. REYNOLDS said, with every' /Tepee
judgment of the Noble Lord, he was bound to say _
be had not given even the shadow of an argument for
should
W
including Ireland in this Bill. The Noble
Lord
have imitated the conduct of William e when he -
,r of
rected the authorities in Ireland before the slur lee
that it d enjoy ail the rights and privileges
a Church
Limerick to respect the Catholic religion;
the
reign of Charles II.; that it should have half the_
revenues, and that even the Catholic gentry stir have
Noble
half their estates restored to them. He hoped t
lies from the lion. and Learned Member for Yoi9Khoul_
Lord would net take the character of the RomaneCat.hae:.
Ho had strong doubts that he had even in re,,ifiiesrs,
matters any communion with him.—(Cries of eane
hear," and " Oh, oh.") Considering the lb
that
derings of th.e Hon. and Learned Gentleman
House, he cereainly had no communion
withGeim.
ntle-
(Hear and laughter.) The Hon. and Learned
hu.
political
men's mecnd entries had divorced him from all eehw_.,.
nion with there.—(Laughter, and cheers.) The snt'',
and Learned Gentleman said that he was Member for
Catholic constituency. He (Mr. Reynolds)
and now told the House that the Catholics who had
sent
the Hon. Gentleman here bad passed a vote of censurese_.
upon him for his conduct in connexion with the present
Bill, and had not entrusted him with their petitions
against the Bill.—(0h, oh, and laughter.) The Prt`
tants of Youghal disowned him also—(oh, ob, and
ate
re-
newed laughter)•—he would not say that the Potesta
denied
of Yourghel despised him—(oh, oh)— because that would
be unparliameneary—(Shouts Oh," and laughter)
and he now gave the Hon. and Learned Gentleman notice&
hat when a general election occurred he woulddt,
et
again be seen in Youghal.—(oh, oh, and divide.) The
Hon. th.e.
Hon. and Learned Gentleman bad been weighed
balance and fund wanting. The handwriting "7,
upon the wall against him. and Youghal had
him, as he (Mr. Reynolds) now disowned bite,--(`-',
oh, and ironical cheering.) The Honourable Gentleman
had also said that he was a Catholic, and a sincere ()Lae
disowned
tholic. He (Mir. Reynolds) hoped he was; but if
were, he certainly exhibited vers. little gratitude towards
the head of that Church to whom he owed a double enm;
Aliment, for the "Holy Father" had not only received
him into the bosom of the Church, but had conferred the
honour of Itnigethood upon him, the Hon. Gentleman
being a "Knight of St. tiregory of the Brazen Spur.,
(Oh, oh, and roars of laughter.) The
gratitude the Hon'
Gentleman showed the Pop e was to calumniate bin', and
to call him a tyrant; and he exhibited his gratitude to
the English Catholics, to the zeal of some of whom hi!,
conversion was due—(Laughter)—by desiring that they
should he coerced for their allegiance.—(Oh, oh.) What,
were the Catholics of England to be blamed because
they would not take from their leader a religious
of teat ki ud? No; and they were wise in their genera,
Lion—they knew whom they could trust; and they knew they could not trust the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
The Hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr, Drumeloni,d),
had spoken of the allegiance due to the PoPei t-
he had forgotten to say what sort of alleglanei
that was --that it was a spiritual and not a temiltora'
allegiance, and that he would be calumniating his ,va-
tholic fellow-subjects if he asserted that the spiritual al-
legiance which they bore to the Holy Father interfered
directly eXotio
or indirectly with their firm, unshaken, and
affectionate loyalty towards their Sovereign. They
"`""f
not acknowledge the Queen to be the spiritual head 0-
(tiClahtetehres
Queen from. the
was fritshhe
the Church—that they totally repudiated and denied.--
Mteemmpboerrasi)heaßd uof. t theythia dgi dr abaet l
ei en
je
pire, and they were prepared to do that which their an-
cestors had done in asserting their allegiance even te.
wards monarchs who persecuted them, sacrifice
and to
their blood and their property in vindication of her be.
nour.—(Hear, hear.) His ereed taught him, that if the
Pope himself , aided by any number of troops, were to
dare to place a hostile foot upon any
portion of her Ma-
jesty's dominions, the Catholics of England, Ireland and
Scotland, would be the first to meet him in the battle-
field, and to repel him.—(Hear, hear, and loud laughter.)
Ah, he well understood that ironical—he would not call
it insolent—sneer ot the Hon. Member for Yougbal•—;
(Oh, oh, laughter, and cries of " Divide.") If Ireland
were retained in the Bill, he predicted that the Act
would be a dead letter upon the statute-book, He would
not say what the Catholic bishops might do; but if (said
m
r. Reynolds) I were a Catholic bishop—(A laugn)r
and I wish I was—(Roars f 1 c laughter)—I now give the
Noble Lord notice that, before 24 hours had eialiser,
from this Bill becoming the law of the land, I woe!"
incur its highest penalties.—(oh, oh, and divide.)
Mr. ANteTEY said he would not reply to the person-
alities of the Member for Dublin—to thet Hon. Member
he left the exclusive privilege of indulging in them, and
of being in the unenviable position of having more than
any other Member contributed to lower the tone and
character of the debates of that House.—(Cheers.) He
denied emphatically that he had d, scribed the Pope as
a " tyrant," or that he had been guilty of the bad taste
of speaking of himself as a " sincere Catholic."
Mr. J. O'CONNELL protested against any observa-
tion which had fallen from Mr. Anstey being taken as
the expression of the opinion of the Irish people. With
regard to the clause under discussion, he would not
condescend to vote for the exclusion of his country
from the operation of so miserable and contemptible a
measure.
Air. CAMPBELL then rose to address the Commit-
mitter, but was met with constant interruptions by cries
of " Divide." He at once avowed himself unable to ad-
dress them.—(Cheers and laughter.) The question lay
in a narrow compass—it emanated from the 24th Sec-
tion of the Act of 1829, which established a compact
with the people of Ireland which they ought 'not to
break. The Hon. Gentleman continued to address the
House for some time amidst the mingled uproar and
laughter of the House, which was most impatient for the
division.
The Committee divided,gwhen there appeared=—
For Mr. S. Crawford's clause . 60 • Against it •
Majority
.., 255
• •••
Sir R. H. INGLIS then moved the folio
" And whereas the Queen's Majesty, in right of her
imperial Crown, iseinto all her subjects,
under God, the
only lawful source and fountain as
we'll of
honour as of
jurisdiction, and no foreign prince, potentate, or prelate
bath in his own right any authority to confer within this
realm, or yesther dominions of the Queen, upon any
Of her Mejes subjects, or upon any other resident
therein, any pre-eminence or jurisd•
iction in or over the
said realm or dominions
or a
thereof:" along or over the people
"And whereas it i t •
notorious that bath of late years taken upon the Bishop ofßome
by territorial limits to define, himself to constitute, and
ceses within this real certain new sees and (ha-
longing; and turtheril' end the dominions thereunto be-
also unto other sees , to appoint unto the said sees and
law, entain
persons already existing and recognised by
thereby pretended as bishops of the same, and hath
dui y to give to such persons authority, not
""' allmembers of the Church of Rome, but also
over all the gleen's Christian subjects therein resident;
and hath further assumed to •
give to ce • rtain other per-
sons archiephcopal dignity and jurisdic-
tioa within her said Majesty's real and dominions:
"And whereas such assumptions
have no foundation
in the law or custom of
festly against all law, yet by negligence and sufferance
of late years, such assumptions have gained allowance
and countenance, to the great disparagement of her Ma-
jesty's imperial Crown and dignity, and to the weaken-
ins; and disheartening
of the Protestant Reformed
Churches of this realm, and to the discouragement of the
Protestant faith in the land, and in all her Majesty's do-
minions:

" And whereas certain rank and precedence ;bath in
divers manners by statute of the realm, by letters pa-
or by ancient
u.
pternest,crbiyptiwoanr,rbaneetnunattached to different offices, ecelesider the sign manual,
deal as well as civil, and to divers classes of persons
within this realm, and also to particular persons during
their natural lives, all such rank and pree,edence being
• les whereof the Crown, as the
regulated by certain ru t
fountain of honour, is the author, guardian, and keeper;
and whereas no subject of this realm can
confer any
rank or pre eminence upon any other subject except
to him delegated,
rtYmitted by the custom
royalgue e Ttl; uitsh orrei
of this realm to bear, without the special licence of the
andthroungoht
subjectheg aotietnh'se
Crown, any title or dignity tendered to him by any fo-
reign prince, prelate, or potentate:
" And whereas the rank and precedence of the arch-
bishops and bishops of the United Church of En
and Ireland, and also the use glandof titles appropriated by
most ancient prescription to the same, are part of the
rights and privileges of the saidiChurch, which the Kings
and Queens who shall come to the Crown imperial of
this realm are, on their accession, bound by oath to
maintain:
~ And whereas, without disparagement to the said
like rank United Church by fundamental laws established, the
, precedence, and titles cannot be imparted to
the bishops and Clergy of any communion not so 'stab-
" And whereas all the ministers and servants of the
Crown are required by law and bound in duty to ,serve

,