The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-07 00:00:00

s~~

....'ll,a,uteattina_itOnal feeling can eirculite—(Hear, hear, beat )
th , with a reciprocity of inconvenience, and irritated.
tion• comnion inconveniences resulting from our junc-
fo, t,e,, Cheers.) How, then, could the Hon. 'Weather
first he
e s 'Wee in this metaphorical
tool-apropos At
r 'ea
. Sheil) could not account for it, but on ap-
eger oo he recollected that the Hon. Member hail an-
-B.4ris 1,,,be speech of the distinguished author of " the
his Politicaleins." His habits as a critic interfered with
''f 111,8 Pose, and the image pr,sented by the work
lie
_,ulwer was so much pressed on his memory, that
into a simile that refutes his argument, and fur-
with the best picture of our melancholy condi-
the fo(Cheer'') The Hon. Gentleman had referred to
bray conferred on Ireland by the Whigs.—(Hear,
tlirai)aolle (Mr. Sod') was most prompt to recognise
vieey h "' Shoes all, to offer his homage to the vast set,
de,„tha fri Y Lord Grey, who had always
proved himself the
,en 'l of Ireland.
ir. 0 CONNELL—No, no.
sionof,Blll,lL--At all events, he was so at the discus-
Grey (de union -Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Charles
little due
between Lord Grey and Charles Grey there was
evils thl:rt"'N've) opposed the Union. He predicted the
of the
8, would result from it, and almost drew a picturo,
far, th enes 'vhich a ps bef,re our eyes. So
Lord cerr:fbre, fa mu dissenting from the panegyric . on
bite with), every Irishman should concur in encompassin,g.
sake, ~ encomium. What a pity it is for Lord Grey b
he heetn't the Member for Leeds is so young a man ; bad
urol,ll, beside•u ;99, be, of course, would have
41 him
t has
adv,c, convincing effect, all the arguments
-havae Ivith such 'force and Lord Grey would never
With go.'"en utterance to language so entirely at variance
,Dais"e opinions of the Member for Leeds. The fol-
PIY elells an extract from his speech, which does not a.p-
aoti iro„°"`ivelY to the past, but is prospective, and supplies
l'ehth;vnent,for repeal. Lord Grey said, on the '7(11 of
'Atte (it is reported in page 338 of the 34th.
a to° Hansard)—. What I most heartily wish for is,
tooneth° uetwten the two countries. By union I
.mean
lialbe„'"g Inoue than a mere word—a union not of Par-
13tit"t"' but of h t ff•ctions and interests—a union
hur, of ardour, and for the general welfare of the
that eahet4ire• It is this species of union, and this only,.
aud g tend to increase the real strength of the empire,
rneolthe it security against any danger. But if any
aucl the' with the name only of union be proposed,
io tendency of which would be only to disunite.
oaly 4-eate disaffection, distrust, and jealousy, it can
13f thietthti t° weaken the whole of the British empire.
ce!, -attire do I take the present measure to be. D is-
fruit% tt -as
re
jealousy, and suspicion, are the visible
10414 it aiready. If you persist in it r se.ntment will
tooloaiand although you should be able, which I doubt,
the ki seeming consent of the Parliament of Ireland to
an opiei"ure, yet the people of that country would wait for
say ii.?,rtunitY of recovering their rights, which they will
the taken from them by force."--(Lotol cht els froin
the f .'"kernbers.) Is not this prophetic ? Is not this
I)„°ttinr;gtil,a,ge of a man anticipating
bellrepea, and almost
is How can this language econciled to the
`'Set,'' the gentleman who spoke from the Treasury
and, what is far more important, to the speech
Lard Grey has been supposed to dictate to his Ma-
entire ond what does that speech recommend ? An
enaa46°Ppression of all reasoning nn the subject. It
(-„l''Pesl„%ilence. It says, not only shall you not have
rktPt, l",,ut You shall not dare to demand it. The Habeas
',“'etty':re ket is to be suspended—the principles of Br.itish.
to he timnpled under foot—the prerogativ.e
by 'eiigthened tb sceptre is to be laden with iron
sol„t a' tarried Weoprruption is to be secured.
tio 'Tress'
M.- „, °°;--nay, more, the boast of Bratons—
tlo the sustainment—the ornament and the prop
dear coustitutiof all that we hold valuable and
Goo,jc,the trial laciJnu'r is to be at an end.—(Loud cheers.)
t't
likf',°lll h it Lordy Grey, just fresh from the triumph
there ""in, who recommends this? Oh, no!—there is,
Cale
be some superior spirit of domination in the
:vla exercises a fetal ascendancy, and is the evil
Iteland.—(Hear, hear.) But he (Mr. Sheil)
"Ile with appeals to the authotity of Lord G. rey.
tactie,, Pleasurable to refer to him. Lord Grey in the
Yos i
▪ t,;°,eech says " Look at the history of Ireland, an.
nfit'„Lhi find, that had it not been for British councils and
are te." intrigue, noe, or at least few of the evils which
s
of tyo,,, Si much felt there would have taken place, envow.
Nit h° Covert nt is the parent, and which are.
ftettiltaLe reason 'Pore taking away all semblance of liberty
eta 'e„ (Cheers from the Irish Membtrs.)
e Irish re-, • • answers to our present
4414 see how far this position..
"ittite,:e' and our crimes. How is the
.Government con-
There is not one Irishman in the Cabinet of
44,:The Lord-Lieutenant, the Under
..Secretary,
'vate Seer tary the Commander of the Forces, the.
teri,tehnt-Gefierael, and' above all, the Cabinet Minis-
, . so interior
'4 ') Play, a part to Lord Anglesea, are
',a' thin House there is not a single native of he-
at), ;:"° repre,erts n Irish county or borough, who has
Oaatied ri
kwi h h eaaffairs of his country. You have not
(o. hure t I between the Irish representatives of Ireland
Croli 'd e V". The late Member for Limerick represents
" ; the Noble Lord, the late Member for Kil-
etiVelwesents Northampton. It may be said that the
b'atifl 1.7 for Dungary on (Mr. Lamb) is in office. Ire-
honour of his birth. By the way, the
tie 0,','1" lan, on the hustings, remanded by the pa-
ll' would i erinen who returned bite, declared. that though
eptivi not make the repeal pledee, his mind was ope.n
and he would give the subject every consi-
eatol'44l* It is to be presumed that the King's speech has
ii°4l,,dnee'l bill], and he will now consider his engagement
h.' the 's tut, to revert to more important matter, who
Minedtfy, ectetary of Ireland? A man who was
lie anc°4lliiittee of this House, and declared that he
it °thing of Ireland.—(Heir, hear, and cheese.)
and ignorance
4hust t° be charged with ignorance,
a arl Off • - LI is blind, and is to lead, or rather
g, ence. oie
enee re'and on the edge of the gulf. What. sort of de-
ofeutht,ifirints:lofnedcid he yesterday make ? Did he telGl us
vta4ntiohy nu-
°' 26 stipendiary Magistrates named by this o-
tholie was appointed?—(Hear, hear.)
tell us why athe Government gave no hint to the
teief,,f.lab °°ges (not la Saurin to Lord Norbury,) but asn.
'SO4I4"I°, Rot to otrage the Irish Caocs by. fru
Catholic emanciu pation ? But he saysli he cannot
()).,f the Judges. What when too chief Judges are
e he
nomination.—(Cheers.) But wherefore did
ii':l)4',ltivetbree.inries at the late Clonmel Assizes ? Has
hoitilistou. that? How stand the facts ? A Jury Bill
ti Nit t The Chancellor of. the Exchequer pledges
tn
,t° it. He cannot carry it ; and then, in. ospop,otusin-
i'ledt; the Principles of that Bill, in violation of a 1
ef°44:,,the Juries who try the tithe combinators are pickedti
~lio."'en in the worst spirit of sectarian exclusion; the
-'1514-1, of the Roman Catholics are outraged, the most
dll4'it' of ascendancy are revived, and our tribunals
talit 'graded into a factious and exasperating instruma7-
.
oodto marry a verdict at any cost of principle, and y
tt ,uf result (Cheers.) IleShell) old defy
o.ri this head. He asserted that the Crown
with el aside 36 Catholics, and ernpannelled three Juries,
th 12 Protestants in one, and 11 Protestants in each of
tae Cr
tWO....(Loild cries of "Hear")—and who did this?
tZs'rosvti The Law Officers confessed it. They
511 all the merit as their
.own. Is this supportable'.'
pets t° he endured ? Is this consistent with the pun-
l'otie- Professed by Lord Brougham, when he pres.entedtthies
eutti.°°l,of the Irish Catholics, detail ng enormities of
practices
4iod s°° When he denounced these detestable pract • .
I.'tiotl;° You wonder that Ireland is in this frightful con-
fetalthhiAnd wi 1 you repress the consequences of your
I'sletif,rti.,le with your offensive, insulting, and. tyrannical
3ut ou have measures ot relief.
Church is
itutle
l'''•••43(tLiuotid cheeyrs.) Of s.vhat kind? The Church is
I\4 he 1.4,, °• Has the Irish
.?Secretary given way ?
1.4 le L m'Ainced his principles. fl v do he and the
all4,t,tets be (the
them
of the
cFlaotii'mrcse,s),,
never I will tliese
een Lein The one exclaims,
ed
fur 4.1' Property to be touched . The other virtually
how do these
ai 'tale its confiscation in 1824. "
ell'Look
Yokohs themselves tot ether ?
the to, it now comport
1- o s tt uth a pleasant pictut e—(Loud laugh ter)—
Zeds they
on their.f r legs as the :Member for
f1;44111,4 it (talo a out
the zoology of office),
144 atg,thi-; quadrupeds in.
eotil,t'd tL''. not by the vile. ligature of office, but
their try to 'leo. amiable fraternity by noble love of that
Rte„affeot; whose benefit they so much contribute by
Itsol; Pulot.",.ate coalition. But how will they settle the
former difference? The Member. for the
loCiieet., .475 indulged in a natural curiosity on t
It Ch's „ilk asked, " When we see the penalties,
. tell us,
li,h4helst,o,e, what is to he the relief—what wall. youE do
4,111 lay r„ Wait," is the answer; and trill ng-
-.! 'or the redress of grievances which they
.con-
t,::4o.447:o:ll:otuitpseitat,teinthe infliction of punishment tot the
wae's-let, tel
they have themselves excited ? He had
l
eat,Litt ii:)ne word more: the speech deprecates •
Portugal. Englishmen . do not.
shed
,sYnapathies to your allies. We
.are youhr,
justi Pon a ',.°Ur blood is precious as any which can t,
one:' of hituistant shore ! save, save us in the. name of
ins c°Vet I"4nity, and of the obligations which y
tb 'Pp° u
rtala Poo Us, by wise and timely redress of our
e grievances, from a war which will be worse
:" the‘tatie' and to which the hoarded wrongs of centuries,
°l.laotiohi,°24l of religious hatred will lend their infernal
w.tQ. 4t°Antribution.—(Cheers.)
°tut fed, of NT said that no person could, he asserted,
' contradiction, feel more truly those ap-

peals which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman bad
made to their sympathies on behalf of Ireland than lie
had done. He much admired the speech of the Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman; but he could not but re-
mark how well he had practised that of which he acetic d
others in this debate. The Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman said, that the Right Honourable the Secretary for
Ireland had remarked on the speech of the Honourable
and Learned Member for Dublin, that in it the particular
topic of the Union with Ireland had been avoided. The
Honourable and Learned Gentleman had given a specimen
of equal skill and dexterity, when he contrived to refer to
the speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
who had preceded him, and yet to avoid the difficulties in
which that speech had placed him. His Honourable and
Learned Friend had placed the question on two grounds ;
and he did not know how the Honourable and Learned
Member could meet that speech, or could meet the great
and overwhelming arguments with which his Honourable
Friend had supported his view of the question. What was
the mode in which he had done it ? He had admitted that
the speech was an able speech ; but had asserted that the
question before them was not one of the Union with Ire-
land. With great submission to that Honourable and
Learned Gentleman, he (Mr. Grant) must say that the
questien was a question of the Union. They had heard
of doubtful and evasive phrases; and they were told that
they must not be carried away by words ; and on those
grounds it was that he called on the House to recollect
that this was, in fact, a question of the Union,. It was in
vain to attempt to evade that question ; it was one on
which the opinion of the House must be given. Well
did he know why the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
departed from it ; it was because that Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had found it difficult, if not impossible, to meet
the arguments of his Hon. Friend. Departing from that
subject, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman went on to dis-
cuss questions, some of which were scarcely worthy of his
eloquence or talent; and which related chiefly to the per-
sonal opinion of the Members of the Government expressed
on former occasions. The Hon. and Learned Member had
referred to the speech of the Noble Earl (Grey) delivered
before the Union. Any man capable of common reason-
ing, must know the difference between the opinions ex-
pressed three years ago, before an event took place, and
those which were stated now, after it had been for 30 years
carried into practice. What were all Governments, and
what all Constitutions—what was the Constitution of this
country itself, if, after an event had taken place—after its
effects bad been consolidated—an establishment was to be
overthrown, and the institutions of an empire resolved into
their elementary principles, because of such an apparent
contradiction in the opinions of one man.—(Hear, hear.)
What was the consistency of that man who would say
that because lie had resisted a measure thirty years ago—
though under that measure a great empire had grown
into strength and flourished—he was now bound
by what he had then thought ; and that, on account
of his former opinions, formed on theory, and not veri-
fied by experience, he was compelled to unravel the
web that had been woven, to disunite the links that bad
been formed, and to destroy that nob'e and glorious fabric
which others had seared, and which he now admired and
approved of, but which, before it was completed, he had
deemed to be objectionable.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Member had adverted to the sufferings
of Ireland. He could assure that Hon. and Learned
Member that no person could speak of the sufferings of
that country with more feelings of sympathy than were
excited in his bosom. He had always been most anxious
to promote the prosperity of Ireland, and to avert from
that country the infliction of laws of a violent description.
He had always resisted those laws, and always should re-
sist them, unless he saw them called for by an imperious
necessity. But, however fearful these laws might be—
however terrible their infliction—he could not deny that
there might be an exigency which required that, for the
safety of the State, the Constitution should put forth all
its powers.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned
Member bad invoked them in the names of justice and
humanity. He (Mr. Grant) also appealed to them in those
two sacred names, and asked them whether it was justice
or humanity to any man who entertained the notion that
he lived under a protecting Government, to leave him ut-
terly without that protection which he had a right to ex
pect, and without which neither his property nor life was
secure.—( Hear, hear.) He regretted, for the sake of the
people of Ireland, that these excesses had been committed,
and lie regretted it especially as he knew what advantage
would be taken of them. He regretted them, too, because
he knew that in the progress of national improvement
there was no interruption so fatal as that which resulted
from the commission of these criminal excesses,—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member for Lincoln had said, that in using
these arguments, they were but resorting to the argu-
ments which they bed used in the Reform Bill. He
admitted the fact, and he avowed that, among the great
objects of a Legislature was the necessity of cultivating a
sober feeling among the people, and of extending among
the people at large the sentiments of the thinking portion
of them. He admitted that, when there was that feel-
ing, the Legislature of a free country were bound to take
it into their most serious consideration. But would any
one say that the same argument applied to the feelings of
a portion of the people who seemed to wish the Parlia-
ment to dissolve the bonds of society—to put an end to
political union, and thus to destroy political strength,
merely because those who urged them to do so professed
their readiness to trace their footsteps in blood, and called
on the Legislature to act in themidst of the stormy discus-
sions of those men, who could never be said deliberately
to have taken what they recommended into their consi-
deration ? When he was told, in this debate, that it
was impossible for the friends of Ireland to hesitate about
the matter ; when lie beard it asserted by the Honourable
Member for Meath, that no man could vote for these
strong measures who felt for the wrongs of Ireland—he
must say that he did not admit the truth of the assertion ;
and he trusted that there was no man who would not give
him credit for those feelings, although he should vote
in favour of those measures ; but when he was told this,
he must say that he perfectly denied the truth of the asser-
tion. He denied, in the most positive manner, his want of
sympathy for Ireland ; and he appealed to those great
men who had been justly deemed examples for all patriots,
to justify him in his opinion. Who were those that, in
cases of necessity, had avowed their support of measures
of violence ? Those immortal patriots whose names the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman had mentioned, and
whose memories he (Mr. (:rant) loved and reverenced ;
whose talents had shed a light on their country; who were
ardent lovers of its liberties and privileges ; and who had
always struggled for the improvement of Ireland, and
who had always ardently desired the advantage of the
people. What was the course which Mr. Grattan, the
roost illustrious of these patriots, had pursued in 1789 ?
Iu the speech on the violences then committed in Ireland,
and on the Whiteboy system, he said, " Let us recollect
what are the laws. On ithis occasion, I ask, do gentle-
men know what are these laws? Do they know the ex-
traordinary prerogatives given by the law—the Whiteboy
Act, and others of the same kind ? Do they recollect
that these Acts were consented to because the blood of the
country was flowing, and the strings of justice nearly
broken ? Do I condemn them on that account ? No-
-1 for I have voted for some of them under the exigency of
the times, in order that temporary coercion may enable
us to administer a suitable remedy to the necessities of
the State." Why did he dwell on this? Not that he
thought that any man ought to follow the Honourable
Mr. Grattan under all circumstances whatever; but be-
cause he believed that the example was a convincing proof
that it was possible to feel an ardent sympathy for the
wrongs of Ireland—a zealous desire for her improvement,
and at the same time to think that lawless violence ought
to be suppressed, and that it was a part of the duty of
all men to abstain from violence and blood ; and that
if such a course was not abandoned, the Government
were imperiously called on to afford protection to those
who had a right to demand it at their hands.—(Hear,
hear.) The Hun. and Learned Gentleman, having
adverted to some other points, entered into the details of
some transactions which had recently taken place. He en-
tered, too, into the question of the tithe-system, and into
that of the Reform of the Irish Church. Why, the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman was aware that the whole question
would, on a future day, and that at no distant period, be
brought before the House ; and if he delayed the consi-
deration of it a few days longer, he would have an oppor-
tunity of regularly expressing his opinions on it to the
House. He (Mr. Grant) would not do more now than
advert to these great questions—nor waste the time of the
House in di-cussing questions that must soon come regu-
larly before them ; but he must make one observation.
All the mischief which it was said bad fallen on Ireland,
was attributed to one man among the Ministry. As a
Member of that Cabinet, he denied the assertion, and was
ready to take his share of the blame. He scorned a com-
pliment to himself, offered at the price of saving him-
self at the expense of others. He would state the tea.
sons which had induced him to be a party to these
measures, and lie would at once declare, that with what-
ever reluctance he had approached the question, and
whatever were the feelings of reluctance which from his
heart he felt upon it, he could not but be convinced,
that when called upon by necessity it was a duty for
them to act decisively; and that it was a duty which
they owed to the unfortunate persons, the victims of ee-
lueion, who created the disturbances, as much as to the rest
of the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that the
• people of Ireland were not of themselves apt to violate

the laws of order—that if they did so, it was the re-
sult of their misfortunes, and that it was an aggravation
of those misfortunes, and of their distress, which excited
them to commotion. It iniiiht be that this statement
was true; but be did not think that even in the most
distant way there should be any encouragement held out
to them to mix up crime( with misfortunes, and to
destroy the peace and security of the ceuntry at large.
(Hear, hear.) A notice of motion had been given by
an Hon. Member, which brought them to the question of
what was the cause of their misfortunes, and whether they
were to be attributed to the Union? In his opinion they
were not—(Hear, bear)—and further he would say—
for it was impossible not to have made up the mind on
the subject—that the separation of the Legislature was
in fact the separation of the Crown.—( Hear, hear.)
Ireland had already proved that it could not be otherwise.
History showed that it must be so, and there could be no
doubt that the attempt, if successful, would have no other
effect than that of renewing the system of corruption and
iniquity that formerly prevailed.—(Hear, hear.) What
was the remedy proposed by the repeal ? The return of
the old Parliament to Ireland. What must be the feelings
of any Irishman who really felt for his country, when he
thought of the old Parliament of Ireland—the instruments,
the slaves, the panders of every tyrannical Government?._
(Cheers.) Yet that Parliament was said to be the fair
creation on which the imagination of Irishmen delighted
to dwell. It was figured as the personification of excel-
lence, when it ought to have been held up as an image of
loathing and of scorn ; it bad been most corrupt, and it
was destroyed.
" The lambent flame played round each object of desire ;
And its foul spots were purged in funeral fire."
What was it hut the old Parliament, that had agreed to
that anti-communion code—(Hear, hear)—that anti.
Catholic code, which had made the greatest part of the
population hewers of wood and drawers of water? And
would any one tell him, after this, that that Parliament
was a body which it was either for the honour or the
welfare of Ireland to recall into existence?—(Hear, hear.)
He should like to see that Parliament return in proces-
sion, headed by the Hon. and Learned Member who ad-
vocated its renewal ; but if it did, be should be surprised
it Ireland would not require more from it than it could
or would ever grant. There was a moment of enthu-
siasm, when Grattan breathed forth a flame of honest pa-
triotism, that for a moment hallowed the Parliament in
which it had been warmed into existence ; but even that
fire met with nothing to feed its vestal flame, hut dis-
solved away in the rottenness and corruption of the atmo-
sphere in which it had been in vain excited.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) And that was the Parliament which we
were now called on to bring anew into life, with all its
corruptions and stains upon it.—(No, no—hear, hear.)
It had been said that the speech bad closed the discussion
of the question of the Union. Indeed ! why here the
House had been for two nights discussing that question
alone.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He (lid not mean to say but
that Ireland deserved all the attention which the House
gave it; but it was strange after all to hear the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman speak of the silence of the House on
that subject—(Hear, hear, and a laugh).—and complain
of that silence. The Hon. and Learned Member said
that this silence struck down Irish Members. What was
the degree of latitude he desired, it was impossible to ima-
gine; but the fact was, that when others had entered into
the argument, he had, by placing some other agreeable
topic before them, diverted their consideration from Ire-
land to other matters. Under such circumstances, it was
impossible not to say that he treated this great subject
with somewhat more of levity than it deserved, and he
(Mr. Grant) should now add no more than the declara-
tion of his positive conviction, that when they profes-ed
themselves doubtful of the Union, they would profess
themselves doubtful of the security of the empire.—(Hear.)

Mr. D. W. HARVEY said, what was the question
now before the House ? Ministers had not stated to Par-
liament what were the plans they contemplated, when
they suffered the constructions that had been put upon that
part of his Majesty's speech which related to Ireland, and
seemed to recognise by their silence, that it was in the
contemplation of his Majesty's Government to declare
Ireland out of the range of the Constitution, and to ask
the Parliament to declare war against that country, and to
make that declaration on the confidence placed in them
alone, and from no other proof of the necessity of adopting
such a severe step. lie believed they would find that that
degree of confidence was not placed in them; that it
would not be given to every set of men ; and that most
certainly the Parliament would not consent to destroy that
palladium, the trial by Jury, and to infuse sectarianism
into the Jury box, and make each Jury act upon the feel-
ings of Catholicism and Protestantism, in opposition to
each other. The great question had been discreetly nar-
rowed to one of party attack, in which more than one-half
of the time of the House had been already wasted. Mr.
Emmett and Mr. M`Nevin stated in 1793, what were the
grievances of Ireland. Would the measures now contem-
plated by the Ministers he effective—if not accompanied by
the remedies which they suggested? When Emmett was ex-
amined before the Privy Council, he was aired whether Ca.
tholic emancipation and reform were the objects of the com-
mon people? He replied, that Catholic emancipation was not,
and that Reform had not been, till they thought that by
it they could get a removal of their grievances. " Arid
what are the grievances which they wish to be removed ?"
was the question. " In the first place, and principally,
they complain of the tithes."—(Hear.) In the next
they complain of the system by which they were go.
verned, and Mr. Emmett, said, that if that were altered,
they would be more respected by their superiors, and their
superiors more esteemed by them. Lord Dillon asked
whether they wanted more—he was told they did not.
Lord Glentworth said, " Then you wish to destroy the
Church ?" " Pardon me, my Lord, not to destroy the
Church, but to overturn the establisbment"—(A laugh.)
" I suppose you would have it as in France ?" " No, as
in America."—(Hear, hear.) These quotations, from the
manner in which they were received, seemed to be consi-
dered favourable to the other side. If so, he hoped they
would be instructive. They allowed what were the opi-
nions of men who, in that day, were prepared to make,
and did make sacrifices for their accomplishment. He
complained that the Government did not now state what
were the legislative measures they meant to introduce. He
hoped they would be such as would meet the expectations
and desires of the Irish people. If so, were they to be
told that the only way to prepare men for these benefits,
was to place them in bondage, and to make them slaves ?
If the Government meant honestly—if the.), intended to
give Ireland such blessings, and such boons, they would not
resort to natural law, and employ force, but would en-
deavour to calm excitement, and soothe the feelings of the
people. Could it be said, that a man might commit mur.
der in Ireland, and escape the punishment awarded by
the laws with impunity?—(Hear.) Were the criminal
laws of the two countries different—was there one law
for this country, and another for Ireland ? And yet they
were told that seventy criminals in that country had
evaded the laws; and that those that wished to have the
laws executed were surrounded by the friends and parti-
sans of those criminals, and prevented from causing the
laws to be executed. This be believed to be a mere in-
vention ; for he never heard such a case substantiated.
He was old enough to remember when a Noble Lord
came down to that House, and demanded from it the ex-
tram di Lary powers which were now about to he required ;
but then, as now, no proofs were adduced that such strong
powers were requisite. But let it be granted that crime
ha 1 increased :—whence dill it spring, and who were
the real, original cause of the misrule so loudly corn-
plained of ? Why, the present Government ; who never,
by their acts, showed that they were inclined to favour
that unhappy country. In the very document they had
put into the King's mouth, they had shewu their dis-
inclination; for, instead of distinctly explaining the
measures they meant to adopt towards the ameliora-
tion of that country, they had put forth their
most eloqurnt champions to blazon abroad that nothing
but a repeal of the Union could satisfy the dissatisfied
Irish. It would have been much more politic if they had
recollected the words of the Right Hon. Member for Cam-
bridgeshire, asi expressed in 1S S, when he said, with
reference to Ireland, that if a greater spirit of conciliation
was infused into the English Government—if they were
guided by justice and economy, they might easily enlist in
their favour tl e feelings of the Irish people without
having recourse to farce and coercion. The po-
licy of the present Government of which the Right
Hon. Gentleman was so distinguished a Member,
was not at all framed after such sage advice, for it thought
that the best way of calming the complaints of the Irish
would be to place them beyond the pale of the laws. The
speech from the Throne seemed to have been so framed as
if the feelings of no one were consulted, and as if its
framers cared not whether they insulted the feelings of a
whole nation.—(Hear, hear.) What folly, particularly at
a time when the whole of England was upon the stretch
to learn what was to be done by a Reformed Parliament.
—(Hear.) From that :Parliament the nation did nut
expect vague praises and indefinite plans of measures in
perspective ; but it expected and cried for useful and in-
stantaneous concessions. Unless those concessions were
prominent, well defined, and likely to be accomplished,
the people would abandon all hope in the Admi-
nistration based upon Reform. The people required
that the finances of the country should be looked to,
and dealt largely with, so far as regarded their diminu-
tion. Taxes should be reduced some millions, and a pro-
perty tax should be substituted, so graduated that it

}mud' reach large possessors unsparingly, and touch small
roprietors with a tender hand. When this was done,
net only this country would he satisfied, but it would not
he necessary to declare actual war against Ireland, and it
would he giving a testimony that Ministers were really
possessed of a spirit of Reform. With respect to that
part of the speech which attempted to unfold the Reforms
of the Church contemplated, he would say, that if the
same Church Reform only was extended to England which
wrs promised to Ireland, the English people would not
accept it at all. Let both countries be equally dealt with,
and let a candid statement be made of the value of the
entire Church property, after which let a Christian-like
distribution take place, and the surplus be applied to tl e
benefit of the nation. If Ministers thought that dividing
two millions of money among a number of lesser plun-
derers would satisfy the nation,they laboured under a great
and dangerous delusion. When he entered his protest
against the address, and supported the amendment, he did
not do so because he wished for a repeal of the Union.
Yet, if be were an Irishman, and saw that a larger por-
tion of happiness would accrue to his country by such a
separation, he would not be deserving the name of patriot
if lie did not contend for it.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL, however he might differ in opi-
nion from the Hon. Member who had just spoken, sri'l
gave him credit far his candour. When he reflected upon
the King's speech, and the questions mentioned in it, he
felt the most unfeigned surprise, that certain Hon. Mem-
bers should have so erroneously misinterpreted its tenor,
and distorted it from beginning to end. It had been said
that its principal feature was that which recommended
coercion as the only means to tranquillize Ireland, and that
its best promises scarcely exhibited in the distance the
tardy hope of redress for the evils complained of. How
incorrect was such a statement ! For the truth was,
that the speech from the Throne held out a near pre -
spect of Reform with respect to tithes, the abuses of the
Church, the B ink and East India Charters, and other
seriorts matters. It also distinctly and separately de
dared that a Reform in the Church of Ireland was
contemplated, and would be especially taken into con•
sideration ; for though the two countries were by law
united, the Church of the one claimed peculiar attention.—
(Hear.) When such improvements were contemplated
by the present Government, and promised in his Majes-
ty's speech, how could any impartial person say that Mi-
nisters were enemies to Reform, and that they desired to
stop the progress of public opinion towards solid and ra-
tional improvement? The very reverse was the case, as
most tie irly appeared in the face of that speech so much
railed against; and how could it be otherwise, since
those who advised that speech hail nothing more at heart
than the speedy and thorough promotion of Reform?
" But then (said the Hon. and Learned Member who had
just rat down) if such be the truth, why net explicitly
state your measures, expose your plans, and show us tan-
gibly what you mean to do for the people ?" This, he
must confess, was an extraordinary request—it was ex-
acting from a Ministry what they never could with pro-
deface grant. All that a Ministry could do, and all that
ought to be asked of them, was to state generally their
projects. Yet, when such a self-evident axiom of go-
vernment ought to be known to every one—not to say
every senator—the Hon. Gentleman who last spoke, put
forth the monstrous proposition of demanding from Mi•
nisters definite explanations of all their views and inten-
tions. Nay, more; it was required that there explana-
tions should be given forthwith, even in the course of sine
single debate. It was really too much that gentlemen
should expect that all questions complained of should be
disposed of in the brief space of a few hours.—(Hear.)
Had Ministers, through the medium of the King's
speech, put forth anything disadvantageous to the
liberty and prosperity of the people ? If they had,
let it be proved : but, if it could not be proved,
why endeavour to shake the confidence the people
reposed in Ministers, and why not wait until they
could seasonably and satisfactorily explain and develop
the measures they had in contemplation for the benefit of
the nation ?—(Hear, hear.)—He would confess that the
speech contained a passage which was not drawn up with-
out great pain on the part of the framers of it—he al-
luded to that part which called for fresh powers, in order
to be more fully enabled to execute the laws in Ireland.
The House may be assured, that it was not without great
repugnance that the advisers of the Crown proposed a
remedy which they scarcely thought according to the
spirit of the Constitution. Extraordinary occurrences
demand unusual measures; and though the laws of co•
ercion should be construed in the worst sense, it would
be found, that when those laws were placed in the hands
of responsible persons as a means of terror, the effect
would be salutary, and satisfactory to every impartial and
reasonable person. Let the means of terror that exist
now be contrasted with the powers Ministers ask for re-
sponsib'e persons, and the difference would be most strik-
ing. At the present time the quiet and industrious
farmer in Ireland was considered guilty for obeying the
laws, and when deemed guilty of such an offence, was
punished by those who now were the possessors of the
means of terror. What! could anybody prefer seeing
those means in the power of the ruthless midnight ruffian
rather than in the hands of the educated, who could only
wish to apply them in behalf of humanity, civilization,
and good government? Let those means of terror still re-
main where they were, and they would everlastingly be
found accompanied with acts that the blood curdled at, and
whose bare mention excited the most thorough-felt horror.
Perhaps it might be thought that he was exaggerating, but
he would refer to the statement lately made by the Hon. and
Learned Member fur Dublin, in which he unfolded with a
laudable purpose the tortures and cruelties practised by one
part of his fellow-countrymen over the other. The crimes he
enumerated were various and of the deepest dye, and
great and small were the victims of them. When such
was the statement of the Hon. and Learned Member with
respect to his own country, how could any one, with the
slightest idea of legislation, object to the powers Ministers
wished to have placed at their disposal? It was well
known that very large, and, consequently, very tempting
rewards had been offered for the discovery of malef rctors,
yet on no occasion could any criminal be found to be so
far seduced as to betray his colleagues in guilt. Now he
boldly asserted, that if there ever was an occasion which
imposed upon Parliament the exercise of its powers—if
ever it had a great and important duty to perform.—
it was now, when it bad to provide, that the loyal and
well-disposed should not become the easy prey of the law-
less. The Hon. and Learned Metnber for Dablin spoke
of resistance to unjust laws, and approved of it. He
cited, in support of his approbation, the example of the
Americans, when they resisted the mother country ; but
was there a single Member of that House, who had the
slightest knowledge of history, that could compare
the legitimate resistance of the Americans to the out-
rages of the Irish ? The one resistance was made by
great patriots, led on by a Washington, the other by
a band of ruffians, excited by their bad and devouring
passions. He consequently thought that as far as that
part of the speech went, Ministers were teat demanding too
much, when they required extraordinary powers, without
specifying their extent. The country might he assured,
that whatever powers Parliament granted, the present
Ministry would not abuse them. There was a question to
which Parliament should pay the most wakeful attention
—to that question, for not subscribing to which, Lord
Killeen lost that seat to which his talents and virtues so
preeminently entitled him ; he of course meant the ques-
tion of repeal. It was to a promise of advocating that
measure that two Hon. and Learned Gentlemen had been
elected—the one for Dublin, the other for Tipperary,
without ever having shown any just grounds for agitating
it, The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who represented
the capital of Ireland, must mean by repeal, absolute se-
paration, since those who were for the litter measure were
the especial objects of his eulogituns. Wolfe Tone was
one of those the Hon. and Learned Member lauded -a
man who, in the little book he left behind him, openly

. .
declares his wishes fora separation of the two countries.
Tone and his associates hod at least one merit is hich

called forth respect; they were sincere in their wishes,
since to accomplish them they did nut refuse to lay their
heads on the scaffold. Separation being the object of
those who called for repeal, he thought it a most fit occa-
sion for Ministers to apply to Parliament to invest them
with extraordinary powers, and Parliament ought to
concede those powers, making them as unlimited as pos-
sible. Honourable Gentlemen might recollect, that
in 1688, men of the came spirit with those who agi•
ated Ireland at present wished for a separation of the two
countries, and proposed to themselves a separate King
in the person of James the Second. What, at that time,
was the first•act of the English Parliament? To suspend
the Habeas Corpus Act, and to grant extraordinary
powers, in order to maintain a well-regulated Government
in Ireland. That Parliament acted prudently, and he
trusted that its example would not be lost on the present
one. He contended, that a repeal of the Union meant
nothing inure nor less than a separation of the two coun-
tries, and a separation most distinctly meant a desire to
confiscate all property held by Englishmen in Ireland ; to
subvert from its foundation the Established Church,
without leaving a vestige of it behind ; it meant that, in-
stead of obeying the laws of the British empire, a Local
Parliament should be established, of which the Hon. and
Learned Member opposite was to be necessarily the head.
The great talents of the Hon. and Learned Member would
indubitably cause him to shine, and obtain a conspicuous
situation in such an assembly; but certainly they would
enable him to do little more. If those talents were an

hundred fold more ample, and directed by the same in-
crease of knowledge and sagacity, they would not Is at
upon him the power of carrying on the local governm 're
of his country for one single year, without involving that
country in a war with England, the effect of whii h oar
would be the conquest of one country, and the degrt da ion
and diminution of the power of the other. He wolf
conclude by saying, that while his Majesty's speech
promised, on the one hand, salutary Reform, it aka
promised that crime and murder should he repressed
To do so, Parliament were asked to intrust Ministei s with
Powers they could not possess without such constitiiti inal
assent, and Ministers would confidently assure Parlia
!tient and the whole country that they would m tintain
inviolable the Union of Ireland and England, and establish
for a permanency, if any Ministers could, tranquillity in
the former country. He and his colleagues required no
more than this at the hands of Parliament to restor.-
Ireland to that state all good patriots must wish to see her
in. When his Noble Friend who sat beside him brought
forward the measure of Church Reform contemplated for
Ireland, the House would have an opportunity of advising
those measures which were most likely to benefit that dis-
tracted country ; and the House might be assured that
Ministers would pay the most serious attention to it.
counsels. He begged to entreat Hon. Members to be
careful how they voted on the present occasicn, lest, by
incautious votes, they should induce the nation to imagine
that that House favoured a repeal of the Union between
Great Britain and Ireland, which, as his Hon. Friend
truly said, would lead, and that speedily, to a total dis-
memberment of the two empires: (During the delivery of
this speech the Noble L rd was continually interrupted
by cheers from the Ministerial side of the House.)
Mr. EWART felt assured that it was not by coercion
that a proper feeling was to be reinstated between England
and Ireland. He was sure they could not effect a peace in
Ireland by a system of terror.—(Hear, hear.) They
might gain the battle by the force of numbers, but would
they gain a victory? No; hut they would insure for
themselves a perfect and mortal hatred in the part of the
whole Irish nation. They should recollect another thing
in all the measures which might be proposed on account
of the state of that country—that the measures should be
based on sound and enlarged principles, and not dealt our
in petty and paltry portions, which could never he ex-
pec:ed to give satisfaction to the parties intended to
be benefitted. He recollected that at the time when
Catholic emancipation was granted, it was declared to be a
final measure; but he was convinced, even at that very
time, that it could not be final ; for as long as thete was a
predominant Church in Ireland, the people of that coup
try would never consider any measure a final one which
left that Church predominant, with which not one six-
teenth part of the inhabitants coincided in belief.—(Herr,
hear, hear.) There were other subjects of great im-
portance which required attentive consideration—he
meant that of free trade to India, to which the people ol
this country had an unquestionable right.—(Hear, hear.)
He hoped the time was fast approaching when that trade
should be thrown open, and a regular representative of the
British nation should be established in China. The Hon.
Member then alluded to the proposed Corporation Reform,
which, be said, was much required, and from which he
anticipated considerable advantage.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said, that little had been said
in the course of the last two nights' debates, on any other
subject but Ireland—a stranger coining into the gallery,
would he apt to think that they had met to consider the
darling question of the Hon. Member for Dublin—the
repeal of the Union ; and that they were then sitting in
deliberation on College-green.—(A laugh.) Now, though
he did not deny that Ireland was entith d to a fair propor-
tion of consideration in that House, he denied that it was
entitled to a monopoly. They had heard the errors of the
Government, and the misery of that country discussed in
detail; and they bad heard remedies for these evils discussed,
without knowing anything of what the Government pro
posed to do in regard to them. Now, he thought there
were other most important subjects, which likewise
dein inded the attention of the House. There was espe-
cially that of the Church Establishment in this
country. All who heard the sentiments expressed by
several Hon. Members must see that the Established
Church is in danger. He would have believed it impos
Bible, that such a system of spoliation could ever have
been meditated as he heard argued by several Members
during the present and previous night's debate ; and more
especially by the Honourable Member for Lanark. Such
a system could never be pursued regarding either branch
of the Church without shaking it to its very foundation.
It would be the prelude of the destruction of all property
in tithes, whether ecclesiastical or lay. The result, he
felt convinced, would be, that no stop could be put tu
the spirit of innovation till there was an Agrarian Law
introduced. He thought he had good reason to feel
alarm when he saw his Majesty's Ministers submit a
proposition to that House of a more equitable disttibution
of the property of any class of his Majesty's subjects.
Whatever the result might be, be could not but consider
that a bad omen of the future. He would not follow the
Hon. Member for Dublin in the detail into which he
went on the subject of the Church of Ireland, because
the whole subject would be fully discussed in the course
of the week, but he (Sir R. Inglis) hoped that the
House would not think that the assertion made by that
Honourable Member could he maintained, that one Irish
prelate derived the tithe of 90,000 acres.
Mr. O'CONNELL corrected the Hon. Baronet. He
had said 96,000 acres.

Sir R. INGLIS was glad to he corrected by the Hon.
Member, as it showed he did not speak without premedi-
tation; but he (Sir R. 1.) cautioned the House not to
believe that the amount stated by the Hon. Member, as
being the revenue derived by the Prelate in question, was
correct. The Hon. Baronet considered it singular that
no allusion had been wide in his Majesty's speech to sub.
jecta of a domestic nature, which be thought should net
have been omitted. Nothing had been said of our having
got rid of that dire scourge, the cholera morbus—(A
laugh)—or of the abundance of time late harvest. He,
however, felt grateful to the Noble Lord opposite for the
form of prayer which had been introduced in refe
rence to these subjects. However lengthy the speech
might be considered, he thought there were ample ma-
terials of importance omitted to have at least doubled its

ngth.
As soon as the Hon. Baronet sat down there were loud
ctirs of " Question! question !" from all sides of the
House, in the midst of which
Mr. HUME rose, and moved that the House do ad-
journ.—(Loud cries of disappro .ation, and "Don't ad-
journ," " Go on," and " Adjourn."
Mr. O'CONNELL—There are twenty to speak to the
question yet, who cannot possibly all speak to night.

_ .
Lord AiTHORY made some observation across the
table, which was not heard in the gallery—on which,
Mr. O'CONNELL suddenly rose, and, striking his
hand on the table, emphatically said to Lord Althorp—
We are not to be gagged yet..--(Cheers and confusion.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL hoped that the Hon. Member
for Middlesex would not persist in his motion.
Mr. HUME—There is an Hon. Member from Ireland
who has never been beard in this House, and who, in the
present temper of the Hou..e, cannot get a fair hearing. I
therefore put it to the Noble Lord, whether we are not
in fairness bound to give that Hon. Member an opportu-
nity of obtaining a hearing ? I must persist in my mo.
tion that the House do adjourn.
Lord ALTHORP hoped that the Hon. Member for
Middlesex would consent to withdraw his motion.
Mr. HUME could nut consent to withdraw his motion.
Strangers were then. ordered to withdraw, but Mr.
Hume having at length agreed to withdraw his motion,
the House did not divide.

Mr. BARRON, in justice to his constituents, thought
it necessary to say that the disturbed state of Ireland was
greatly exaggerated. —(Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connel.)
He lived in that part of that country which was most
disturbed—in the county of Kilkenny—where he had
been a Magistrate for twelve years, and he could say from
his own knowledge that Irelind was several times during
the last ten years in a more disturbed state than it is at
present. In his Maksty'sj speech it was stated that " a
spirit of insubordination and violence bad risen to the most
fearful height, rendering life and property insecure, defy..
ing the authority of the law, and threatening the most
fatal consequences if not promptly and effectually re-
pressed." He agreed so far in opinion with the senti-
ments expressed in the speech, that the insubordination
and ♦iolence had risen to a most fearful height ; but b
denied that it was greater than it had been for the las
eighty years—that was for many years before the great
Agitator was born, to whom all the violence in Ireland
was attributed. At the time the Whiteboy Act was
passed, the violence and insubordination had risen to a
still greater height than at present, but was it carried
on by agitation ? No, no—but they would hive such
insubordination in Ireland till they had done justice to
that country. It was justice which the Irish wanted,
and he begged of the House to grant it. He begged of
them not to take the ipse dixit of any man on the, present
state of Ireland. The causes of the discontent were bad
laws, bad government, and three hundred years of oppres-
sion and misery.—(Hear.) And yet they were taunted
for all their sufferings. Were they to be trampled on by
an ill-organ:zed police, by an overgrown Church, in which
not one sixteenth of the people believed, but which they
had to !toppers, while at the same time they bad to
support tie Ministers of their own religion ? Were not
all these sufficient to cause discontept land violence?--