The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-31 00:00:00

bad other advantage', and it would be very difficult t
unite them both.—(Bear, hear.) In a country like Eng-
land any system of compulsory education would be viewed
by the people as trenching en religious toleration. The
Hon. Member had stated the officers whom he wished to
sit as a sort of cabinet, and who were to be invested with
a considerable power in determining the books to be read
in the schools. This might, perhaps, be an excellent re-
gulation in Prussia and France, in which the systems of
Government were totally different from that of England ;
but to establish such officers over the people of this coun-
try, divided as they were by religions of every persuasion,
would excite a jealousy which it would be excessively dif-
ficult to allay. The Hon Member's proposal was to have
the Mayor, the country clergymen, and three of the inha-
bitants of a place to superintend the public education. For
his part he did not wish to speak with any disrespect of
the Mayors of this country; but a Bill which constituted
the Mayors of every corporation as one of the authorities
by which the education of the neighbourhood should be
regulated he was sure would not give satisfaction, but
would provoke opposition.—( A laugh.)
Mr. WILKS said that his Hon. Friend the Member for
Caine had moved for returns upon this subject more
perfect than any that had hitherto been produced, and
such as would facilitate the proceedings of the House upon
it in the next session.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that the effect of the discus-
sion of that nieht would be to direct men's minds benefi-
cially to the subject before the next Session. A more
unfounded attack than that made by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin on the French Government he bad
never heard. Such an attack was most unbecoming in a
person who professed that he wished to speak in a candid
manner. When the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin spoke again on this subject he had much better
lave reference to documents than to his own previous as-
sertions, which the House was well aware were often
baz irded and as often retracted. The Hon. Member then
consented to withdraw his motion.
REDUCTION OF EXPENDITURE.
Mr. C. BULLER having risen to make his motion,
pledging his Majesty's Ministers to make preparations for
extensive reductions in every department of the state pre-
vious to the next Session of Parliament,
Mr. STANLEY objected to bringing forward abstract
prepositions,
and he was sure that the Hon. Member
must see that his motion was of the nature of an abstract
proposition, which might very fairly be deferred to the
next session.
Mr. C. BULLER had never heard of a proposition in
that House of a less abstract nature than that of his mo-
tion, he meant his proposition, as a practical test of what
Ministers meant to do next session.
Lord ALTHORP perfectly agreed with the Hon.
Member's resoluticn, that. all practical reductions ought
to be made, with the salvo that the public service should
not be impaired. If this was all that the Hon. Gentleman
meant, he would at once agree to the motion.
Mr. C. BULLER wished Ministers to pledge themselves
to further reductions, and it was the duty of a reformed
Parliament to relieve the people by diminishing the amount
of the public d-partments, and which he was convinced
could he done with perfect safety. The time was when
the Hon. Member fax Manchester (Mr. P. Thomson) had
proposed a reduction of taxation to the extent of seven-
teen millions, and it could not now be said that the
desire of the people for retrenchment hail abated. The
people had lost all confidence in the House, since they
had seen the present extravagant expenditure supported
by such large majorities. He would confess that Ministers
had reduced the taxes by more than three millions, and
the expenditure by more than two millions ; but the public
justly complained that they had not gone far enough. He
thought that sinecures, however objectionable, were not so
great an evil as overgrown establishments ; and as to the
Noble Lord's plea of not impairing the public service,
that had ever been the argument of every Minister that
ever wished to avoid economy. The expenditure of 1832
was 29,500,000/., with 21,500,0001. over which the
House had a direct control. This expenditure might be
reduced by at least five per cent. He would point out as
departments in which reductions could be made the office
of the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall. The Lord
Lieutenant's department of Ireland and the diplomatic
expenditure was but one great job from beginning to end.
All communications between the great States, in the pre-
sent condition of civilization, might be carried on by the
agency of the post. He believed that what was called
the non-effective branch of the army might be reduced.
He believed it was the policy of this country to keep up
the skeleton of a regular army. With reference to the
payments made to persons for past services he would only
ask whether a proper system of economy had been adopted?
The Hon. Member then commented on the effective state
1)f the army, and proceeded to enumerate various details
in figures relative to the comparative numbers of the army
at various periods; and from these details it appeared
that in 1823 the numbers were 68,000, while at present
ti ey amounted to 89,000. Of the extensive military
establishment in Ireland the Noble Lord (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) bad said, in the year 1823, that the
necessity of a great army there arose from the faults of the
misgovernment of that country: In the year 1820 his
Right Hon. Friend (the Secretary at War) had protested
against 23,000 men for Ireland. He had said, too, that
an inquiry should be made into the state of the colo-
nies, and especially those which required a large military
f orce. He (Mr. Charles Buller) only hoped that his
Right Hon. Friend was instituting that. inquiry at the
present moment. It was said, too, that ten or twelve
thousand men were required to :recruit the army; but
could not the army be reduced this amount (as we under-
stood) for three years? In 1817 Lord Castlereagh, who
was the most economical Minister the country had had
since the days of Mr. Pitt, declared that it was not neces-
sary to keep up the navy on a war establishment in time
of peace. After adverting to the great amount of the
ordinance estimates, the Hon. Member maintained that
Ole expense of the household troops was much greater
than it ought to be. The colonial expenditure was a
source of vast profusion, and whenever it was objected to
it was always said that they could not keep up an army
and navy in the colonies without incurring a heavy
charge; but in truth the question was, whether they
were bound to keep up such establishments except in such
a place as Malta. It was a question whether these colo-
nies were worth keeping or no. He had proposed this
motion as conveying an assurance by that House to the
people that great reductions were in contemplation by the
House; and he could wish that such assurance to the
people should come unrestrained from his Majesty's Go-
vernment. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving—
" That it is the opinion of this House that, in order to
satisfy the expectations of the people, it is necessary that such
extensive reductions be made in the public expenditure as
shall effectually diminish the urdens of the country ; and
,that it is the duty of his Majestby's Ministers to make such ar-
-..-angements previous to the next Session of Parliament, re.
..ipecting the effective and non.effective services of the naval,
civil, and colonial establishments, as may be necessary for the
tainment of Phi object."
Sir. BUCKINGHAM seconded the motion. The Hon.
Gentleman was proceeding to make some further re-
patio, when
An Hon. Msainza, moved that the House be counted,
and the gallery was cleared, when 40 Members being pre-
sent, the gallery was re-opened.
On our re admission to the gallery we found
1... qr. BUCKINGHAM on his legs. Could any man
that one fourth of the military establishments might
be strna off? There could be no apprehension of danger
to the colonie-, because the chances of war were much
less than they had been, inasmuch as nations had grown
wiser and they had learned to appreciate the value of free•
slum in trade, by which they would become more inde-
pendent of each other. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded
at some length to advert to the corn laws and the defec-
tive state of our taxation, as tending materially to produce
much of the evil which now affected the country. Ile
thought that some recognition by the House of the prin-
ciple of this resolution, that some pledge should be given
before the House separated in order to inspire the people
with confidence.
Lord ALTHORP said that the motion of the Hon.
Gentleman did not appear to him to be of such importance
as that Hon. Gentleman supposed. He seemed to think
that the attempt to reduce the expenditure of the country
was an object worthy of a good Government, and to this
he (Lord Althorp) assented. But though such a motion
as the present might be a very good vehicle for making a
speech upon, he did not know what else it was good for.
With reference to the motion, be would say, if it was of
any use, or it it meant anything, it was a motion of cen-
sure. If the Hon. Gentleman had thought that his Ma-
jesty's Ministers deserved censure for their conduct, he
thought that this was a most reasonable motion; but if it
were not meant to be considered in that light, then be
really did not think it was necessary to adopt the words
of the resolution. If his Mat -sty's Government bad not
justified the expectations of the people, their conduct
was open to censure. It had been asserted that tbhey
had not redeemed their pledges. If they ad
not done what they promised to do when they entered
upon office, then indeed their conduct would be open to
inquiry; but he must maintain that his Majesty's
Ministers had done all in their power to act upon a prin-
ciple of economy; and they had during two years and a
half reduced the taxation by 3,000,000/., and they had
reduced the patronage of the Government. He felt that
the endeavour to keep up patronage was bad in principle ;
and he believed that every reduction which was made

strengthened a Government more than any thing which
could be done. It was therefore the duty of every man
to do away with unnecessary expenses. if by adopting
this resolution tie people were to be led to expect that
some enormous reductions would be made in the next
session, be should be sorry to see it adopted, because be was
convinced that no Minister could bold out such an expec-
tation with the slightest propriety. After a few remarks,
the Noble Lord concluded by moving a resolution as an
amendmenr to .that proposed, to the effect that the House,
looking Nolte redactions which had been effected by the
financial4deangernents of the country, by which three
millions of taxes had been repealed in the last and present
session, felt it ir,duty again to affirm the principle of
a just eceVilty, , iga due regard to the interests of this
country.
Mr. FRYER:Ueved the Members of his Majesty's
Government were honourable and just men ; but it did not
follow be should always support them. He did not com-
plain of what they had done, but of what they had not
done. 10 must tell Ministers they ought to have resisted
and put down the power of the landed oligarchy. The
Noble Lord (Althorp) agreed with him partly in this, but
he could not bring his courage to the sticking-place.—(A
laugh.) He would resist an income tax to the death—
(A laugh)—but was friendly to a property tax. The
sugar and the timber monopoly were both bad. They
ought to buy their sugar at the cheapest market, and allow
the West Indians to do the same, and get what articles
they wanted as cheaply as they could. Unless Ministers
acted in this way they must resign their situations. They
would have been obliged to resign if the church cess clause
in the Temporalities Bill has been lost. The Duke of Wel-
lington must then come in, and if he did, they might
depend upon it he would wage war with the oligarchy.
He did so before on the Catholic question, and be would
do it again: Depend upon it, the Duke must come in—
(A laugh)—he must come in. Ministers must then come
to dist side of the House, and there they would learn, too
late, what they ought to do. They must fight the oli-
garchy. What was the use of their reform? What was
the object of it but to take power out of the hands of the
oligarchy, and give it to the towns. It was proved thfore
the Agricultural Committee th it the landed interest was
now distressed, and that the farmers could not pay their
rent. What did this arise from but the bad system so long
pursued ?
After a few words from Mr. H.L. Bulwer, Mr. Hume,
and Colonel Evans, who recommended that the motion
should be withdrawn for the purpose of unanimity,
Mr. C. BULLER made a few observations in reply,
and withdrew his motion.
In answer to a question from Mr. O'DWYER,
Lord ALTHORP said Ireland benefited by the repeal of
the coal duty.
The resolution proposed by Lord ALTHORP was then
unanimously agreed to.
DECCAN PRIZE MONEY.
Mr. H. L. BULWER rose to bring forward the motion
of which he gave notice respecting Naroba Govind Outis.
The following were the facts :—During the war which
ended in the subjugation of the Deccan, Naroba held the
situation of secretary under the Peishwa, and was made
prisoner when the fort of Ryegur capitulated. By the
articles of capitulation, be was at liberty to fix his resi-
dence in any part of the Peishwa's dominions which was
subject to Great Britain, and he retired to Poonab, then
considered as under British law. In defiance, however, of
all this he was arrested, imprisoned, and loaded with irons.
By this treatment, he was so broken in spirit that he was'
unwilling to submit to any condition to effect his release
from prison, and for that purpose be declared that the I
property belonged not to himself but to the Peishwa. He
exacted a promise at the same time that if any part of the
treasure taken should turn out upon inquiry to belong to
him, it should be returned. A servant of the Company
seas subsequently appointed to investigate the case, who
declared that part of the property was Naroba's. He
died in the greatest misery. His relatives brought the
case before the Supreme Court of Calcutta, who declared
that the weight of evidence was against him. An appeal
was then made to the Privy Council, and there it was
decided that the Supreme Court had no power to adjudi-
cate, as the Deccan was at that time in a state between
peace and war. On this appeal the Privy Council refused
to hear any evidence, except such as had before come
before the Supreme Court. The case, however, as before
tie Supreme Court and the Privy Council was quite a
different one, for before the Privy Council the property
was that of the Company, and Naroba was required to
produce proofs of what part belonged to him. It was
impossible he could produce his proofs, for he had pre-
viously been forcibly deprived of them. It was admitted
by the Commissioner appointed by the Company, that six
or seven lacks of rupees, or between 60,000/. and 70,000/ ,
belonged to Naroba. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
opposite (the Attorney-General) admitted that the case
was a mysterious one; that the evidence on which the
Privy Council decided was unsatisfactory ; and that if so
much time had not elapsed since the decision, be would
recommend a review of it. The Hcn. Member con-
cluded by moving an address to his Majesty, praying
that be would be pleased to cause the claim of Naroba
to be reconsidered, before the distribution of the Deccan
trize money.
Mr. HALCOMB seconded the motion.
Mr. AGLIONBY moved that the House be counted.
There were but thirty-seven Members present.
Adjourned till to morrow.

[After the gallery was cleared on Mr. O'Con.
nell's motion, the report of the proceedings was
abruptly terminated. We give the following
" official account," in continuation of what appeared
in The Sun of yesterday, in order to show how the
debates are reported by the Speaker. If the Learned
Member for Dublin had only this record to trust to
for his eloquence, his constituents would be sadly
" bothered " to find out whether the " Liberator "
was lost, stolen, or strayed.]