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London, England, 1851-06-05 00:00:00

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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 4.

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
SCHOOL ESTABLISHMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Lord MELGUND moved the second reading of this
Bill. His reason for doing so was a conviction which
he entertained that the means at present existing in
Scotland for the education of the people were not so ex-
tensive as they were supposed to be, or as was necessary.
The system of education to be established under this Bill
would be supported by local taxation, and placed under a
certain amount of local management. The system which
• he wished to see created was that which the people them-
selves could superintend the working of, and he was most
anxious that nothing should creep into this Bill which
should seem to indicate that the Legislature wanted to
specify what should, and what should not, be taught.
His own opinion, however, was, that religious and secu-
lar education ought to be separated, and Dr. Chalmers
bad often propounded the doctrine that any legislative
measure for regulating the education of the peopreshould
be entirely divested of the religious element.—(Hear.) At
present there were some 5,000 schools in Scotland, and of
that number 1,800 were unconnected with any religious
sect. The Noble Lord then briefly reviewed the legis-
lation of past ages on this subject, and proceeded to ob-
serve, the population of Scotland was about 3,000,000.
Now, allowing fire children for every thousand would
give 600,000 as the number of children in Scotland.
Two hundred thousand of those were educated in
schools belongieg to the Free Church, and allowing
100,000 as the number educated by the schools uncon-
nected with any sect, they would have a clear result of
300,000 children at present in Scotland whose education
was totally unprovided for. The object of this Bill was
to remove that vast extent of moral destitution, and the
mode by which he proposed to attain it was easy of
acquisition, simple in its operation, and comparatively
speaking inexpensive. Re would not detain the House
longer, but appealing to the House to give the Bill their
best consideration, he would sit down moving its second
reading._(gear, hear.)
Mr. F. MACKENZIE deplored with the Nobe Lord
the amount of moral destitution that prevailed in Scot-
land, but he thought the means of education could be
greatly extended without disturbing the presentid
system.—(Cries
successfully—(Cri h esor "ttaaear, hear") No one could
dispute was neci asary
on the subject, because it was high ti me that something
wwasdonelor the education of children in Scotland, but
the question was far too important to be left in the
banes of a private Member. It would be much
better, therefore, that this Bill should be aban-
doned, and the whole question referred to the
consideration of a Select Committee. The session was
• too far advanced to admit of that being done now, but
there was no hurry required in framing their legislation
on the subject, and the question might well be taken up
again at the beginning of next session. He objected to '
this Bill on the ground that it would effect an entire dis-
ruption
between the parish schools and the Church of
Scotland, and alter the mode of electing the school-
masters. It was proposed to throw their election into
the hands of the ratepayers, and he was very much
afraid if that proposal were ultimately adopted it would
prove fatal to any system of education. In the next
place he objected to the Bill, because it made no provi-
sion for religious instruction; and he should therefore
move that the Bill be read a second time this day six
months.—(gear, hear.)
Mr. HUME thanked the Noble Lord for the trouble
he had taken in promoting this Bill. Of all things
which the House had neglected that which related to the
education of the people it hsd neglected the most, and it
really was the duty of the House now to establish some
effective legislation on the subject. The Hon. Gentle-
man who opposed this Bill said be did so because it
would separate education from the Church; but the
Hon. Member forgot that hitherto the education of the
people had been entrusted to the Church, and how woe-
fully it had betrayed its trust was to be found in the fact
that two-thirds of the children of Scotland were totally
destitute of education.—(Hear.) Sixty cr seventy years
ago the people were far better educated than they were
now, and he needed no other proof than that to convince
him that the time had arrived when a radical change
• should be made in the system. The duty of the school-
master and the clergyman ought to be separated, and he,
for one, felt indebted to the Noble Lord for having made
this effort to accomplish that object.
Mr. C. BRUCE was quite ready to extend education
in Scotland, but if the opinions and wishes of the people
of Scotland were to influence the House, this Bill ought
to be rejected. The existing system of education had
con erred great benefits upon the people of Scotland,
and they mere therefore opposed to a Bill which pro-
posed to overturn it. If there was one qusstion upon
which the minds of the people of Scotland were made
up, it was this—they were determined that the reli-
gious and secular education of their children should not
be separated; and be could not believe that either the
House or the Government would be guilty of the injus-
tice of passing this Bill in defiance of their wishes and
opinions.
The LORD ADVOCATE thought that, at all events,
the course of the debate had shown that there existed
great necessities for the enlargement of the means of
education in Scotland, and for immediate inquiry into the
proper method for carrying this out. This was admitted
onall sides of the House. He himself should record his vote
for the second reading of the Bill, because he thought it
would show that he was ready to do something far the
*relief of this want, and he thought the Noble Lord was
entitled to the best thanks of his country for bringing
forward the measure. As to the objection which had been
urged against the Bill, that it way; intended to subvert
the parochial sj stem, be thought that was easily answered
by the fact, that beyond the range of the present system
there lay a mass of Ignorance which they could not deel
with. As tar as religious education wont, he was glad
to rind that the Bill did not exclude religion from its
scheme, because in that cue he could not hive supported
it. He-could never consent to exclude religion from
education systematically, except in those cases where it
would really prevent any edlcation at all being given.
The establishment did not number more than half what
was called orthodox Presbyterins, and that being the
case, was-it reasonable to say that they should exclude
those who did not belong to the establishment, though
they adhered to all its formulas? Feeling there was no
greater foe to the moral and political progress of the
people than ignorance and deficient means of education,
he should give his cordial vote for the second reading of
the Bill.—(Dean)
Sir R. INGLIS objected to taking away the duty and
privilege which belonged to the Church of Scotland, as
well by its soci,l position as by direct Act of Parlia-
ment, viz., the inscruccion of the whole people of Scot-
land. Ic was the only Church which the State ac-
knowledged in that country, and it had a solemn
duty committed to it, which it had hitherto
fulfilled, and if the Home desired to extend educa-
tion in the country, let the duty' of the Church
• be increased rather than place it in the bands of whom
All the intelligence and the superiority of the Scotch
people were to be attributed to the present parochial
system of education. Look at the number of phi-
losophers, hi terians, end poets, to which Scotland had
given birth, whe not only adorned their native land,
but exalted the xAlole empire. In the small district of
Westerkirk, in Duinfriessbire, containing only a popula-
tion of 600, Sir John, Sir Pulteney, Sir James, and Sir
Charles Maiaoloi, had received their education, and
could the House point, in any other part of her Majesty's
dominions, to one parish-school which could produce
such men? If the present system bad been productive
of such great results, the House otw,ht not to demolish
it without having eome better re:owns for doing
Noban those alleged by the Noble Lord.—(Hear.)
dy denied that there were detects of detail in the
Quieting system, but was that a reason for abolishing it?
Nor did he dispute that there was a great want of edu-
cation in
oiwdmany parts of Scotland, and he should be re-
to it at the se e that want supplied, but he could not consent
of educationexpvuse of religious principle. All system
people tor its°
Ouet to have the godly bringing up of the
a nation w teat, and the greatness of Scotland as
the educations _attributable to the fact that
that pri„iple. of its people was based upon
if this Bill was quite clear to him that
eitoeenseid_craartied religion would become
a secondary
etion in the education of the
600,000 children, to
whom the Noble Lord had referred,
and he therefore called
the goose to reject it.
thoughtMACGßEGOltupola
great boon spout= cotland, and h this Bill would confer a
o was quite satisfied the
poon of the Scottish community would
well thinking
agree with him. Agreeing with
every word that had
fallen from the Lord Advocate of Scotland, he should
give his hearty support to the Bill.
Mr. COWAN Was satisfiefi that without
arpeligihu
oust
teaching no country could be prosperous or hp
d he
no tests could secure religious education,
therefore hoped the test system thatno,
prevailed
in Scotland would be
speedily abolished. With
regard to the Bill itself, he highly approved
of it, more especially aa
It made Provision
for providing a higher standard of excellence in
Nose who were entrusted with the education of youth.
In his estimation that was the most important part of the
Bill, and ha trusted it would receive the best attention
"la ultimate sanction of the House. The present pa-
!labial system was not so perfect as the opponents
701114}3.11w0u1d • believe, for these who
th have the ouse
management too often neglected to examine the
qualifications ofth
osewhomthey appointed to the office
of par sh schoolmaster, and that was an additional rea-
son for his supporting the Bill.
Mr. CHARTERIS could not pretend to
say what
the result of the seen on the division Bill would be,
bat he entreated the
Rouse to pause before it
overthrow a system which tieaction to
Scotland, for the sake of now gave sa , e
replacing it with a plan, which
as ye: was untried, and Which, he would undertake to
may, would eventually prove unsuccessful.—(Bear, hear.)
The supporters of the Bill themselves admitted that
its details were defective ; and he could not help
un
thinking, that while they were •, it would be much
better to postpone the question till next session. The
criminal returns of Scotland satisfied him that the pre-
sent parochial system Was sound and goad at bottom;
that there wag room for improvement is its details he
was far from denying, but, at the same rim; he was
very much afraid that the plan proposed by the Bill to
be substituted for it would turn out to be far more ob-
jeetionable, without racciTiLi.; chc:e :Actariatt differences
which the _Noble Lord seemed to desire.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL entirely concurred in what
had fallen from the Lord Advocate. and he Should not
have felt called upon to address the House had it not
been for the speech of the Honourable Member
fur the Uuiversity. The jionourable Baronet.
seemed to be under the delusion that, this
Bill would embrace-only the secular instruction of the
people, l'iow it was not the intention of the framers of
the Bill to exclude religious education from their plan,
,fore the religious element should be mixed
Atitrith the secular the local ratepayers should
tit.cLuired to give its sanction to ad&
'lll plec.fding. It W'al not disputed that far
• ,•