The Sun.
London, England, 1802-11-25 00:00:00

its a better state than a • War Cotill per.nianti-t-
-ly place them, though during the War they were
undoubtedly great, because this Country then en-
grossed the whole commerce of the world. He
had heard the CHANCELLOR of the EXCH EQUER
yesterday state, that since the Peace the Exports
had exceeded that of the 'w hole of the preceding year.
But this might be accounted for by the rupture with
the Northern Courts, which suspended for a while
the exports of our manufadures to them ; but the
fairest way would be to make a comparative Esti-
mate between the present year and the last of these
before the:rupture with the North. At present, so
far from possessing a monopoly, we were excluded
from all the immense Coast under the French Domi_
nions ; our trade was contraband, and perhaps the
Government only connived at it, because it was
necessarily carried on in foreign bottoms, by which
France alone was the gainer, while England was im-
pairing the sinews of her naval superiority. We
amongst other things, boasted the possession of
great capital, but when we reflected that France
had the advantage of an immense range of Coast
and improving manufadures, the energies of such,
and so numerous a People, if turned principally to
trade, would present us with a formidable rival,
from whom we should have every thing to fear.
Let it not be forgotten either, that if the spirit and
energies of such a population was vigorously direct-
ed to the improvement of its inland Navigation,
it would not be in the power of all Europe com-
bined, to deprive it of prodigious maritime resources.
Against such immense advantages, how feeble a
counterpoise did all our vaunted wealth and all our
prosperity oppose ? I tell you, " there are robbers
at your door;" you reply, '6 very well, I am rich;"
what then is the answer—" so much the better for
the robbers." Holland and Spain are now absolute-
ly under the dominion of France. We recognize
the principle of Armaments by suffering them to
send troops to reduce the Blacks in St. Domingo.
Should they succeed in that, or even fail in the
attempt, the same troops may be turned to a very
useful account in an attack upon our Islands, while'
we are ourselves dismantled. The machinery of
Malta was so clumsily construded that the artists
could not work it. We returned to our six al all
his conquered Islands and foreign Dependencies.
We made him a, present of 30,000 sailors who were
captives in our hands ; and after he is possessed of
all these great and multiplied resources, we say
" Oh! that is true enough, but we have four mil_
lions of surplus in the Funds." But is Ireland safe ?
Have we a Channel Flees ? Are we ourselves suffi-
ciently armed for defence ? Wealth certainly. is a
very desirable and useful possession, if uniformly
applied to the most judicious and effectual purposes
of safety ; but if that be negleded, depend upon it
that it serves only as a bait and a lure to the rapa-
city of your Enemies. It is asked, what chance
have we of making this better by War ? I answer,
what better chance have we now, when we are
already treated with contempt, and still remain un-
armed, and incapable of resenting it ? I shall now
conclude, by professing for myself, that by rousing
the spirit of the Nation, and acting with pru-
dence and decision, I should be fearless of the suc-
cess of any War into which we may be driven.
Sir F. BURDETT considered the Speeches
employed on both sides of the subject, as presenting
a most extraordinary portrait of debate, and, what
was to him no less singular, he was in the strange
predicament of approving of some of the arguments
of both, and agreeing with some of those whom it
was never his good fortune to have joined in opinion
before. Whether the last Speech was intended
to excite the Country to War or not, it cer-
tainly presented a melancholy pidure of the
present state of Great Britain and the rest of
Europe, and the
..danger arising from the aggran-
dized state of France, bounded beyond its former
wishes of the Alps, the Pyrenees, the Rhine, and
the Ocean, employing, as was jusly stated, a popu-
lation of 40 or so millions of active, enterprising,
enlightened inhabitants, living in the most fertile
and salubrious countries, in possession of the great_
est range of European coast, strengthened by allied
Navies, and courageous, consummately skilful, and
experienced Generals and Soldiers—every man who
wished well to this Country, could not possibly
view this proved without dismay. But it is rather
strange that these very Ministers who caused it all,
should Use the first to come here and tell us of it, and
still more marvellous that they should propose a
perseverance in the same ruinous conduft as a re-
medy. They looked to the map for Countries that
disappeared, they themselves best knew why ; ano-
ther said we should remain armed, and keep a kind
of blustering Bully in that Hou,e, yet with what
dignity indeed was not very obvious, as, according
to them, we were unable to do any thing.—
Ministers were blamed for their interference in the
affairs of Switzerland, as if there could he no in-
terference without making War the alternative ;
but he wished to God there had been no greater
blame to impute to the present or any former Mi-
nisters. From the general opinion, he could at
least extract thus much, that War was not consider-
ed at this instant by any of them then as decidedly a
matter of wisdom or propriety. France, at one
time, surrounded by Despots, and driven to despair,
had no other alternative but vidory and conquest,
or unconditional submission. Being himself an
enemy to making any experiments from War to
Peace, or from Peace to War, he could not think
that such a motive could influence the vote of any
lover 'of his Country. We should not make ourselves,
in his opinion, principals in any Continental War,
and it was bad policy to shew such a disposition
when we had no ability. He had an objedion to
admit the happy effects of the -Union with Ireland,
which he called a cruel Subjugation. But if against
any danger they wished to rouse the energies of
the people, let them give them back their Freedom
and an Equal Representation, give them a principle
round which they may rally, and which they would
feel an interest in fighting for.
Mr. DILLON defended the Irish Representation
from swelling the Ministerial phalanx, and said
notwithstanding, that the reason they opposed
them was, because of the melancholy situation of
the Country since the conclusion of the Peace.
Mr. JOHNSTON rose to express his approba-
tion of the proposed Address. He was sorry to hear
the kind of language that had been used in that

tiduse, the tendency of Whiets Was to provoke
renewal of the War : he strongly approved of the
conduct of His Majesty's Ministers, and hoped,
that they would persevere in the same line of con_
dud which they hitherto adopted. He had the
strongest hope of the continuance of Peaces both
from. the state of. this Country} and from that of
France. It could not be the wish of the Govern-
ment of France again to engage in War, because
he believed, that a great Majority of the People of
that Country wished for the restoration of the An-
tient Family at all events, the present Govern-
ment was only popular, in proportion as it tended
to restore to the People of that Country, 'their an-
tient systems arid habits. It must, therefore, be
the object of the Government to preserve Peace.
Lora' TEMPLE said, that the only notice he
should take of the speech of the Hon. Baronet, was
to observe upon one passage of it—He had said that
at the commencement of die late contest, France,
surrounded as she was by the Despots of Europe,
could not have ailed otherwise than she had done ;
but when he spoke of the situation of his own.-
Country, not indeed surrounded by the Despots Of
Europe, for all the despotism of Europe was centered
in France ; but when he spoke of the perilous
situation of his own Country, he would not allow
her to entertain the same kind of feeling which he
justified and applauded on the part of France. If
we used strong langtnie, it was termed bullying ;
if we made any preparation, it was called an indi-
cation of our wish for War. It had been said, and
industriously repeated, that, he and those Gentle-
men with whom he agreed in political sentiments,
were anxious for the renewal of the War at any
rate. He never would hear such insinuations thrown
out without rising to give them a direct contradiction.
He knew it was the object of some Gentlemen that
such sentiments should be attributed to him and his
friends, and therefore he would always rise to contra-
did them whenever they were made. Such sentiments
formed no part of their Political Creed, nor had ever
been asserted in their arguments. They did not
wish for War, but they saw, as every man must
see, the danger of the Country, but at the same
time they saw not only the danger of going to War,
but almost the impossibility of entering into it.—
Their object was to open the eyes of the People of
thiss Country to the real situation in which they
were placed, and to shew them into what hands the
Country had falleh, and to what degree their inte-
rests had suffered ; to shew them, that under the
present Ministers, England had no prolsesq of Se-
curity in Peace, nor of Success in War. Instead of
being conductors, that, by being placed at the top
of an edifice, would secure it from the effeas of
lightning, they would conduct it to the heart of the
building. They might, indeed, be blunt conductors,
but still they would convey the lightning. When
the Treaty of Peace was made with France, it was
approved of in that House, and in the Country ;
but it was upon a promise held out by Ministers,
that they would vigorously oppose any future.
attempts of aggrandizement on the part of
France ; and how had they kept that promise ?
We continued disarming, while France continued
making encroachments. There seemed to be an in-
consistency between the language and the conduct
of Ministers, for the House had been told, that the
Ministers now ailed upon the same principles that
they did when they made the Peace if they did,
upon what principles could they now call upon the
People to arm ? He wished to ask them, what
greater reason had they for arming now, than they
had had every moment since the signature of the
Treaty of Peace ? If the Government of the Conn_
try was in other hands, much might be done for its
salvation, not by War, but by real firmness, and
teal conciliation : not by that system which was
termed by Ministers, firmness and conciliation,
which was, in fad, the most mawkish mixture that
ever was forced down the throtks of the People of
this Country. Looking at the present Address, it
appeared to him to be of the same milk and water
nature as the rest of their compositions ; it pledged
the House to nothing, and therefore he should
agree to it.

General Al AITL AND said, that from what he had
heard in the present debate, and in the one which
took place last night, he should have thought, if he
had not had other information, that the Minister
had disbanded the whole of our. Army, dismantled
the whole of our Fleet, and that the Peace Establish-
ment was lower than upon any formeroccasion. He
should have supposed that this Country had been
laid prostrate at the 'feet of France. He would,
however, venture to state, that there never was a
period in the history of this Country, when there
was so large and so well organized a Military
Establishment as there was at present. There was
at this moment nearly as large a Military Establish-
ment as there was during some of the years of the
late contest with France.. There was in time of
Peace a greater Force than some of the Noble Lord's
friends thought necessary for the security of the
Country in time of War. It was said that our
Fleet was dismantled, but in fad we had now
.48,000 seamen, and if the Fleet was not so strong
as might be wished, it was not the fault of Minis
ter's.- If the opinion- he was going to advance was
wrong, there were many Naval Officers present
who could correct him. When the nature of our
Naval Establishment was considered,, whenit was
considered how many privations our Sailors were
forced to undergo in time of-War, it was but right
that in time of Peace they should pailake. of its
blessings, and therefore .it had been thought
wise to disband them. But as to our Navy
being reduced below that of France, he only
wished that the contest between this Country-and
France, between the civilized world and France,
depended upon the result of a naval engagement
between the Fleets of the two countries. He was
old enough to recolleft an instance that appeared to
him completely in point : when Count D'Estaing
went with a very large French fleet to America,
Lord HOWE was off New York withonly six Eng-
lish ships of the line, and those badly manned ; in-
stead of desponding, he sent an Officer to ask for
volunteers from the merchant ships in the harbour,
and the next day the only difficulty he had was, not
to man his ships, but to get rid of .some of the
crowd of volunteers that offered their services ; and
he had no doubt but that under similar circumstances
our fleet could noiv be manned faster than the ships

could b ptepared for sea. Much had bcefl staff dF
the danger to which our commerce was exposed
from the great power dnd extent of .Pranee4 and tfr
Hon. Gentleman had said, that if the First Censel
could not beat (IS in commerce, he would thrower hid
sword into the scale ; but he believed it was this
very apprehension. of his throwing his sword into
the scale, that would prevent France from ever
rivalling us in commerce—Comilnerce never sought
an &A-et-tried territory nor a Tyrannical Government.
If the objet of France was to rival this Codntry iri
commercial pursuits, then she must give up her pro_
jells of conquest; if she meant to persevere in her
plans of conquest, then she could not think of ri.
valling us in our Trade. But considering the Ques-
tion in any point of view, he saw no reascan to
suppose that the continuance of Peace would render
us less able to enter into a War; when it was neces-
sary, with vigour. If you were now to go to Wary
what end would it answer, admitting that you were
to rake every Colony belonging to Fiance, and clear
the Seas of her Ships, would that make any change
in the state of Europe ?' Or if it did, it. would 1.,;!
for the worse, for France I'vould be obliged to do
as she had done before, plunder her neighbours, to
enable her to continue the contest. A case had been
put, of a man reviving who had died fourteen years
ago, ,od enquiring after the state of the family-
of Europe, he would say, What is become of Spain ?,
the answer would be, '' She is gone ;"—Holland ?
" gone ;"—the Netherlands ? '' gone, 6:c." He
would then ask, what 'was the complaint by which
so manyof the family had sufflered ? The answer would
be," a revolution in the system." lie would then ask
what remedies had been used ? The answer would be
" bleeding." After finding what had been the
effed of this System, he certainly would not recom-
mend its being tried again, but would rather pro-
pose gentle and alterative methods and restoratives.
He concluded with giving his approbation to the
Addles.

The SECRETARY at WAR said he should not
enter at large into the question. It was his inten-
tion to have made some observations upon what had
been said about our Naval and Military Establish-
ments, but they had been superseded 9 by the very
able Speech of the Hon. General who had preceded
him. Some of the Gentlemen who had spoken must
have taken very little pains to obtain information,
if they really thought that our Army and Navy was
so reduced as they had stated. We had now not
only a more efficient regular Military Force than
we ever had in time of Peace, but than we had dor_
ing a great part of the last War. The Troops that
had been disbanded were only such Troops as were
engaged for a limited time, and who consequently
were entitled to their discharge—the Militia and
some ofihe Fencibles. But our Army was not only
greater, in point of physical force, than upon for-
mer occasions, but it was better organized, and bet.
ter disciplined. With regard to our Fleet, if the
Hon. Gentleman supposed that we were to have
3o Sail of the Line always lying at Torbay, his
notions were singular upon the subjeft ; but when..
ever France had a Naval Force in the Mediterranean
and in the West Indies, we had a force more than
equal to meet them. With regard to what had fal-
len from the Noble Lord, he confessed it had given
him great pleasure, because he was now able, lot
the first time, to draw a practical conclusion frorri
the arguments of those Gentlemen who concurred
in opinion with the Noble Lord. It was certainly
right that the People of this Country should know
their real situation, and that they should not be led
to suppose that they might rely with absolute
certainty upon the continuance of the Peace.---
But he had been at a. loss to guess, to what
praaical conclusion the Speeches of the Noble
Lord and his Friends tended : it must be to
one of these two, either that we Ought to break
the Peace and go to War, or that the Ministers
ought to be changed.—The arguments of a Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WrNDHAra) seemed to tend
to the former conclusion ; but the Noble Lord fairly
avowed that his objet was a change in the Minis-
ters ; that he and his friends were the most proper.
to fill their situation, and that they would enjoy
more of the confidence of the House and of the
Country, than the present Ministers. It that was
the Noble Lord's opinion, he wished him to bring
the question fairly before the House ; let him at
once-fairly move to dismiss the present Ministers,
and not endeavour to embarrass the King's Govern..
ment by constantly giving exaggerated descriptions
of the state of the Country. The Noble Lord seemed
to consider this as a mawkish Administration.—
If it were, another Administration might come
that would be entitled to the epithet of Inso-
lent. The present Administration did not come into
Office by means of intrigue, they had been called
into Office in times of difficulty and danger ; and he
hoped it would be recolleded, that they had given
Peace to the Country, and that they had done no.
thing to commit the Honour or the Interests of the
Country.

Mr. PDX said, he had listened with peculiar
pleasure to' the Speech of the Noble Lord (TEMPLE);
he always listened with pleasure to the warm elo_
. quence of youth ; but he was as much gratified with
the matter as with the manner of the Noble Lord's
Speech. He was pleased with it, because it came to a
praaical conclusion—he was pleased with it, because
he now found that all that gloomy and dreadful co.
louring whiCh the Hon. Gentlemen had given to their
Speeches (and which would have been considered a's
almost bombastic in an Epic Poet), was not intended
to plunge this Country again into a War, 'but was
me relycalcula ted to effed a change in Administration.
—He was also pleased to find thAt if this pradical
conclusion of a change in Administration was effed-
ed, there vv...s no danger of our being plunged into
a War, for the Noble Lord seemed to Think that
when he and his friends came into office, their great
names would terrify the First Consul, without the.
necessity of going to War. But as the Noble Lord
had given him so much pleasure, he would give him
some advice upon a subjed upon which, fret expe..
rience, he was qualified to give adviCe, viz. on the
best' mode of concluding an Opposition. 'lf. the
Noble Lord wished to remove the present Mi.
nisters from their situations, tl.e proper mode
would be, not to make vague -ffind indefinite
charges, but to bring forward specific_Motions.—
He did not agree with the Right Hon: Gentleman
who spoke last, that it was necessary to move at