The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-25 00:00:00

•
0/-t-iZil)
_ .
. . . . ,
~..
.- . , •
0144.1;5141:
-0. •a l ' -4,1-V,, -i---.,.4t/` -...'\
;.. ),, f • , 4'''''4C,4. ‘1
• 'e. ..
„.„.„ c•:' ..,... ',., k : .._,.: 2 1 , "'''',/r• _, vw,,,,, -,.....k,,,,,,,f,,,,,,,,,,.... •
----"v, 72, ~,,fi
./,';'. ' *t:: '' i '- 4'
."-A,....0„
111 1,, -
, : -N:
MO, A 'Ol4, Vo=--,1,;))4,41,4f*,„ ' '1 ',-
4,,;Z-t;•-,_-.,_

(PRICE 7D.)

of leaving a family in want is one check to improvident marriages,
yet the Joss of both parents is not an event likely to be contem-
plated. In like manner, although the existence of a certain provi-
sion for old age, independent of individual saving, comes within the
description of the mischief, it is nevertheless far less detrimental
than the existence of an equal fund for maintaining young persons,
and more especially for supporting children."
This stated the principle which lie had gone upon, and also
the exceptions which he had then as well as now in his mind.
In speaking of hospitals, he said, as he had said before, that he
was against carrying the rule too rigorously. He would not
have taken notice of the very silly, foolish, and grossly
misrepresented statement, had he not been informed by a
quarter in which he. had every confidence, that there was an
attempt making to get up a popular cry, that he and others
were against all hospitals and charities in general. Any thing
more unfounded could not be, the existence of the only hospi-
tal he was or ever had been against, was that hospital which
was admitted by the Legislature, and all parties, both here
and
,in Ireland who had ever turned attention to the
subject, to be nothing short of a public nuisance.—( Hear,
hear.) The Foundling Hospital, and the curators of that in-
stitution had agreed with him as to the mischievous tendency
of its object. So far from his having been an enemy to other
hospitals,_ he had given practical proofs, although not to the
extent to which he wished he had been able to go in the sub-
scriptions to hospitals and charities tharhe hAt given ; and in-
deed the very last thing he subscribed to was an hospital for
the London University.—( Hear, hear.)

POOR LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion for reading the order of the day for the
House going into Committee on the Bill,
Lord KENYON stated that when the Housearrived at the
55th clause, he should move its omission, considering it a most
cruel clause.
Lord TE YNHAM objected to the House proceeding with
the Bill during the present session, as he saw no necessity
whatever for it ; and being quite confident that in the measure
passed at the present moment, Parliament would have to
meet, in a very short period, to make alterations in it. The
Noble Lord moved as an amendment that it be committed this
day six months.
The amendment was Alen put and negatived, and the House
resolved itself into a Committee.
The preamble was postponed.
On the first clause being read,
Lord TE YNH AM moved that no Commissioner mnder the
Bill should be appointed during the sitting of Parliament,
whose name had not been presented to both Houses fourteen
days previously.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought such a regulation
was altogether unnecessary, and that it would be amply suf-
ficient if the names were published in the Gazette. The plan
of laying the names of Commissioners before Parliament pre-
vious to their being appointed had only been resorted to in
one or two instances. The case he particularly recollected
was that of the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry. He thought
if they were to discuss in Parliament the merits of individuals
to be appointed Commissioners, they would get few competent
persons to offer themselves. He thought it was quite suffi-
cient to leave the matter to the Crown. The Government
was quite ready to listen to any suggestion as to the appoint-
ment of proper persons, as the only object they had in view
was the appointment of three efficient men having a practical
knowledge of the subject, and without prejudices—men who
would not be put out of their way by clamour, but who were
of mild and conciliatory dispositions.
After a few words from the Duke of CUMBERLAND,
Lord EL L ENBORO UGH thought that the appointment
of the Commissioners might be very well left to the Govern-
ment. He thought that they might be safely selected from
those able and learned persons who had acted as Commis-
sioners, and who were practically acquainted with the subject.
There could be no doubt that, if none of these gentlemen
were appointed Commissioners, they would at any rate be
consulted. He was glad that it was intended-to appoint so
few Commissioners.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the object in
view in proposing to appoint only three Commissioners .was
that there should be as little divisibility of responsibility as
possible.
Lord WYNFORD felt satisfied that in the course of a
short time there would be three hundred instead of only three
Commissioners. He had intended to move that the clauses
relative to the Commissioners be struck out of the Bill, but he
should not do so at present.
Lord COLC HE STER wished to know what would be the
probable expense of the establishment of the Commissioners, &c.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the sum could not
be stated with any exactness.
The amendment was then negatived.
On the question that the clause be agreed to,
Lord AL VANLE Y objected to the clauses respecting the
Commissioners, because they interfered with the self-manage-
ment of parish affairs now existing. He thought that it was
desirable that parishioners should be induced to interfere in
these matters, and to exercise a control over the expenditure.
He did not mean to say that all authority would be taken
from the overseers and parish officers by this Bill ; but it
would lead to constant collisions in parishes, and produce an
indisposition to act. Magistrates would be disgusted and
refuse to interfere, and the overseers of parishes would be-
come either careless or extremely severe. The plan he had
offered was such a one, that he felt convinced it would give
general satisfaction throughout the country. The other night
he had alluded to the good administration of the Poor Laws
in four parishes, and he thought that the plan adopted in
them might be successfully tried generally. What the admi-
nistrators of the Poor Laws in these parishes should first do
was to cause to be printed a sufficient number of copies of the
Reports of how their plan worked, and copies of them should
be distributed among the parish officers throughout the coun-
try. When the different overseers had got copies of such
Reports in their hands, and after it was known that they had
studied and understood them, letters were to be written from
the Home Office, informing them that .a measure was to be
brought in, founded on the system that had been already
tried, and the overseers were to explain to their parishioners
what the measure was to be. The effect of this would be,
that the Act would be immediately and clearly under-
stood. At present there were few men in the country
who could judge of Acts of Parliament, and fewer still
who could foretell what the results of them would be.
The effect of the report, he proposed would be, that their
Lordships would have practical evidence respecting a system
that had been already tried and approved of, instead of having,
as at present, their table loaded with a mass of evidence that
could be turned to very little good account. He proposed
next year to bring in a Bill, the preamble of which would be
founded on the 50th clause of the measure before the House.
—( The Noble Lord here entered into several details of his
proposed plan, but from the inaudible tone in which he spoke
it was not possible to catch the purport of them.) The per-
sons he proposed to act as Commissioners were to be appointed
by the Magistrates at Quarter Sessions, and by the Magistrates
alone. They were to receive quarterly from the overseers of
the different parishes reports as to the effect of the system that
had been tried. He felt convinced that the system he pro-
posed would turn out to be more congenial to the feelings of
the country than the measure under discussion, which he must
qualify by calling it a system of centralization. Before they
put such tremendous powers into the hands of a small number
of Commissioners, they ought to try the system which he ex-
plained the other evening, which system was not his, but
which was recommended as being one that evccy body could
understand. If the measure he pointed out were carried into
effect he did not despair of seeing the poor raised to their for-
mer less degraded condition.

The LORD CHANCELLOR felt anxious to convince his
Noble Friend that no injustice had been done to him the other
evening, and that his very able speech was closely attended
to. However, he considered that, in many respects, there
would result more mischief from the Noble Lord's plan
than from any thing in the bill they were discussing, and its
principle would be found wholly inefficacious in its results.
He (the Lord Chancellor) was not new to the subject, and
there was no part of the plan that had been sketched by the
Noble Lord which had not been considered before, and
what was more, even acted upon, and where it had been tried
it had failed in 999 cases out of 1,000. He contended that the
overseers would not report without compulsion, and he did not
see how they could be compelled to send in reports. With
respect to the Commissioners appointed by three Magistrates.
since they would have no discretionary power, they would sow
the seeds of variety and dissension in every parish. He could
not, therefore, consider that his Noble Friend's plan was any
improvement on the measure before them. No one could rea-
sonably object to the principle of the Government measure,
for that principle was what the philosophers called " tenta-
tive," and which was commonly termed experimental, namely,
a principle that led one step by step to practical results. The
objection made to the Central Board was founded in error.
It was erroneous to contend that the Central Board would
meddle with private parish affairs. It would do no such thing.
Local Boards did, and they were perpetual intermeddlers in
private matters. It was to correct and reform them that a
Central Board was appointed. Centralization was intended to
reform the abuses of those Local Boards, and to go back to the
Act .of the 43d of Elizabeth, which those Local' Boards had
abused, and which should never have been departed from.
The authors of the present Bill had no intention, they never
dreamt (and they said so the other evening) of doing away
with the Poor Law system. They did not intend to destroy
that system, but to reform its abuses and to lop off its excre-
scences. Nothing more was contemplated by the Bill before
them. To do that it was necessary to place sufficient powers
in vigorous hands, and that could be only done by vesting dis-
cretionary powers in the hands of a smaller number of indi-
viduals. Of that he was as fully convinced now as he was be-
fore he heard the Noble Lord's very ingenious speech. He
confessed that he felt exceedingly annoyed, after hearing the
other night the able and clear speech of his Noble Friend,
to find that his Noble Friend had such a bad opinion of the
present measure. But that feeling of annoyance was abated
when he found that his Noble Friend had a plan of his °"r the
own to
f
propose, since such a circumstance naturally accounted o
motives on which his Noble Friend's objections to the present
measure were founded.
Lord AL VANLE Y explained; but the Noble Lord was