The Sun.
London, England, 1802-05-14 00:00:00

posing the- present -contest should terminate in the
Most t'avourable manner for France, a long time
must elapse, ,before that Island could be again
rendered profitable to thj" Mother Country.—
The . Navy of F. ante bad, during the present
War, been redUcial above one half, and she had
.scarcely a Merchant Ship upon the ocean.—
: France had a commerce to create as the foundation
of her' future Navy, while on the other.hand, the
sources of the English Naval power remained un-
impaired. The "sources of the Naval power of
England were her Coasting trade,'the East Country
trade, our Fisheries, , the West Indian trade, the
North American trade, the East Indian trade, and
the Mediterranean and 'Levant trade ; -compared
with flak France had but little. Coasting trade, and
her West Indian and Mediterranean trade was much
inferior, to ours ; to the other, I,laces she had no
• trade at all, or at least none that deserved notice.
It was true, be .said, that France had acquired
a great extent of power and territory but she, was
without resources to feed and support them ; while
Great Britain, with, a solid capital, even stood in
need of more territory to employ it on. The very
extent of her dominions rendered France weak. It
had been asked what security we had that this Peace
would be lasting ? He.swith sorrow confessed, that
•io• the present state of the world, any Peace was
tremely insecure. But this insecurity was no reason
for our not concluding a Treaty, wilco we could do
so on honourable terms. The Noble Lord then
sheaved, by instances 'deduced from, a variety of
preceding Treaties, that it was proper to follow up
this principle. It was proper to. make security a
consideration, but it was necessary_to prove that
by continuing the Ware we could have obtained
better security. With regard to the Government
with which we had to treat, France was now
gradually laying aside her Revolutionary Principles,
and returning to the old maxims of Polities and Re-
ligion. It was impossible, after the preceding con-
vulsions, that she could as yet have a good,Govern-
ment, but the current was running that way.. A
renewal of the War would, in some measure, un-
avoidably replunge her into Rekolutionary mea-
sures : but this respeded only her internal-Govern_
ment. With regard to foreign policy; :we had as
much to dread from her under die Bourbons as un-
der the present . Government. Had she remain-
ed in her former stare, the world might have
experienced fewer convulsions ; butunder all Govern-
ments her ambitious views would be the same. •We
had now emerged from a dangerous wars with our
resources, our credit unimpaired. It was'iMproper
to waste them. • It was still more improper to waste
the spirit of the Country'. That there was a danger
of doing so was evident. He was a friend' to the.
Preliminaries, and rejoiced at their being signed ;
but there had appeared.a spirit of exultation in this
Country on that event, which he Should have been
-sorry to.see on the Conclusion of any Peace. This
exultation might in some degree he attributed to the
- relief which the people expeded from taxation ; but
this :could influence them only, in a small -degree ;
the great cause,was, that the people were-worn but.
by the
_War, and their spirits required to be che-
rished by Peace. After having dais strewn that our
empire had been preserved entire, its interests at-
tended to, our 'Allies not neglected, an:l not one
degrading or dishoecurable article admitted into he
present Definitive Treaty, the Noble Lord 'thought
himself justified when he concluded with the follow-
ing i\lotHn t—"- That an humble
_Address be pie.
semen to His .Majesty, to return His Majesty
the Thanks of the Honse fut having been graciously
pleased- to communicate to them the Definitive
Treaty of Peace, to represent to His Majesty,
that/we have already declared our full approba-
tion of the Preliminary Articles of Peace, which, by
His Majesty's Command, were laid Before this
House; and we are satisfied that His Majesty
has, on the whole, wisely consulted the interests
of his People in having concludesi a Definitive
Treaty, founded on the basis ,of • these Prelimi..
naries. That although we deeply lament the ca-
lamitous events which have taken place en time Con_
Linens of Europe in the course of the War, we cannot
refled but with the utmost satisfadion, that the
wild and destrudive,designs in the which this
Country was threatened at its commencement have
been effedually frustrated. That His Majesty's
dominions have not only been preserved entire; but
valuable and important acquisitions have been an,
nexed to them ; that our Commercial and Maritime
Superiority have been maintained and improved,'
and that we continue in tWe confirmed possession of
those means of exertion which the experience of the
late contest has proved more than ever, to be equal,
even irrnidst the new and unexampled difficulties of
other nations of Europe, .to maintain the indeoen-
deuce and assert the honour 'of this Country ; that
impreSsed with these. sentiments, we are on our
parts earnestly solicitous to cultivate and improve
the-blessings of Peace, and to concu,r in such measures
as His Majesty in his wisdom shall judge to be
best calculated to prevent occasions of misunder.
•
standing with Foreign Powers ;--,-that we rely
on. His Majesty's known disposition to adhere
with the most scrupulous fidelity to his engage_
tents ; but that we entertain at the same time a per_
felt confidence, that His Majesty will not fail tom-
, ploy that vigilance and attention which time present
situation of 'Europe demands; and above all, that
His Majesty will uniformly determine and prepare to
.defend against every encroachment, the great sources
of the wealth, commerce, and naval power of the
, Empire. That we are fully persuaded; HiS Majes-
ty's faithful Subjels will at all times be ready to
support the honour of His Majesty's Crown, and the
Rights, Laws; and Liberties of their Country, with
the same zeal, energy, and fortitude which they
have invariably manifested during the war, now hap-
pily brought to a conclusion."
Mr. T. GRENVILLE said, thiat in the observa:
tions he had to make, he .should confine himself
steidly to the answer of the arguments which the
Noble Lord had advanced in favour of the Treaty of
Peace. Before he proceeded to comment upon what
bad fallen from the Noble Lord, he wished to say a
fe.‘y words upon what' his Right Hon. friend 11;141
said of the necessity of supporting the spirit 4-f the ,
people of this Country. This observation be conceiv-
ed applied to what Jrad fallen from the Noble Lord,
towards the conclusion ofshis speech.; The Noble •
Lord said, that the people _were tired out
War, that they cried out for Peace, and that the

;4!)), they expressed upon the Peace~ was greatir than I
he wished to have seen—This was the point at-issue`
between his Majesty's Ministers and those Gentle.
men who concurred with him in opinion upon the sub-
jet% He contended, that the spirit of the People of
this Country was what he hoped it always would
be ;_ that the people were ready to stand forward
in defence of their honour and security, and
that at the last -period of the War, the spirit
of the Country was as great as it had been
at any period during the contest. ' He then
proceeded to comment upon different parts of
the Noble Lord's speech : he contended that
this Country would have derived great advan-
tages from the renewal of the Treaties. With le-
gard to that part of the Question which related to
India, he said he was astonished to hear a, Right
Hon. Gentleman last night speak so-slightly of the
Treaty of I 783 and the Convention of 1787, because
in the Projet oldie Treaty of Lisle, he seemed to
wish to confirm those Treaties which he now repre.
sented as worse than useless.

Mr. DUNDAS said, he took this opportua
nity of noticing what had been - said by the Right
Honourable Gentleman who had just sit down,
with reference to what he,. Mr. DUNDAS, had said
last night, and who had pursued what lie said a good
while, and made some observations. upon it ; but he
had misconceived, for he had misrepresented what he
said. He had charged him with saying that if the
Treaty referred to in the Motion was considered,
it would not be equal to ooe field-piece. He said no
such thing. He did not allude to a Treaty when he
made use of the observation alluded to,-----He said that
if the Papers moved for by the Learned Gentleman,
not alluding to any Treaty, were laid upon the Table,
every one of them,tltey -would have no effed whatever
to remove the doubts•of Frenchmen on 'the. subjed
to which they related ; and it was in reference to
these papers he had said that one, field-piece would
settle the business of them in a momenta—The Right
• Hon. Gentleman had alledged that he (Mr. DUN-
DAs) had applied his observations to the Conven-
tion of 1787, as Containing evil praviSiOns which we
ought not to renew. He had done no such thing---;-.
His argument was this, and he begged leave now
to repeat it, that the merit of the Convention of
17 87 depended solely Upon this, that it applied an
antidote to the poison of the Treaty of 1783 ;- the
meaning of which was, that the Conventiooof 1787
, had the merit of counterading the Treaty of 1783 ;
but he had not said that either the one or the other of
• them was the foundation of the prosperity of India.
He thought it ne...essary to explain this, which seemed
to have been misconstrued by the Rt. Hon. Gentle-
man ; but this was not the main purpose for which
he rose to-night,to ask the attention of the House.
He rose.to make an observation or two which were
very material. The Hon. Gentleman had put it to
him, how he 'reconciled is condkt in assenting to
the Negotiation at Lisle, by which the. provisions
of the Convention of 1787 were stipulated to be as.
sente,d to on our part ? His answer to this. was a
very short and a very plain one, and he hoped it
would be a very satisfactory one. It was this
that since the year 1797, the condition of this
Country in India was changed most materially, and
that which might have been offered in 1797, and
‘, as offend in 1797, might have been, and would
have been improper on our part in 18oa, because
our situation in India had been most materially
changed in that time. In 1797 we had not, what
we, now possessed, namely, the undoubted Sove-
reignty of India, and therefore, whatever opinion
he had in 1797, he was perfectly warranted in
changing chat opinion in the present instance ; for
in the one case, we were warranted in demanding
more than in the other, -and, he was only desirous
of our availing ourselves of the advantage which we
now possessed. In 1797 we had no such advantao
there Was, therefore, no real difference in his con-
duct ; in both instances he had been desirous that
this COuntry should have the best possible terms of
security for its tranquillity in India: Did the Right
Hon. Gentleman mean to make it matter of reproach
to hima that 'he had changed his opinion as to our si-
tuation in India upon a change of circumstances
there ? he Mean' to say, that although he could
discover a material change of circumstances in our
situation, yet there was to be no change in his opt-
nion as to the conduct which we were to pursue ?
D:d he mean to urge it as a fault in him that he had,
:von an attentive perusal of doeurnents, from 1763.
down to the present period, become of opinion that
our Sovereignty in India is now entire, and as he was
of the opinion, that we were better off in this resped
by not renewing any Treaty than if we had retie*_
ed any of them, that he should endeavour to ins_
press that opinion on the House ? He belieVed that
the Noble Person who had been alluded to (Lord
GKENviLLE), stated an opinion much as he had
dot*, on the ground of our Sovereignty in India,
, and that he had changed the opinion he had first
entertained On this subjea.—This he learnt from the
common vehicles by ' which the opinions Of public
men wire conveyed to the- Public. But he would
leave this part of the questior, and take the liberty
of saying a few words with regard to the question
now before the House: When he heard of the sig-
nature of the Preliminaries of Peace, he was at a
distant part of this Island ; he had no hesitation in
saying, that when he heard of the manner, in which
the Cape of Good Hope was to be diSposed of, lie
beard it with regret and sorrow. He.had always
considered that place as a great acquisition to this
Country. He was of that opinion in theory before
we had it ; he was confirmed in that opinion by
experience of the use of it since it was in our pos.
session. He looked upon it as a good'depbt, and a
place for the reception, of our troops, when we had
occasion to send them to India : by their being landed
and refreshed there, they went to India full of
health and vigott, and were in every relied fit for ,
immediate service. It helped us in the- course of
Our immense fleets in their way to India. These
were advantages we had experienced. He looked
Upon the Cape and Ceylon as our two great bul-
warks in his Mind, and at no period of his life had
he been of .another opinion on this' subjed. No
connedion, however close—no friendship, however
cordial--no attachment-3 however sincere, should
,induce bins not to give hii opinion upon this subjed.
That opinion was, that the Cape of Good Hope
;;Mould not have been given up by this Country, and lie
was ready to confess, however unwelcome that might
be that HOuie or unpopular in the Country, had

he been in Administration, nothing shonic ,v
him to .bea party in agreeing to a Peace. upon
terms by which this-Country was to abanOn till
Cape ofGood Hope.' He felt this . sentiment
di rt
the more strongly on account of the conneai"
was now established between France and Batavi'bic
He considered the Cape of Good Hope as inv*- abe.
almost to, us, as a -place of safe reception t 0 us,
tween Asia and Europe; but although this was '„s
.opinion, yet he did not hold it to be any part of it.
duty to join those who took so much Poaba
ins.:,,ou.
render the Peace. an. objet of disapyr pod
with the people of this Country ; saw 41Zber
that was likely to arise out of that conduit, nc', at
did he think it was, proper to cavil too much at that
part of the .exerCise of the Prerogative of tile
Crown, although it was done of course under tilt
advice of Ministers. 'With regard to Malta' ace
considered, it also as a place of great value 011
count of the communication it had between the r
diterranean and the Levant—it was one. of
finest ports. in the world.—lt was in a covnerci,lo
view. most important for us to retain, but itt
not to -Commercial view that he felt the full i;
portance of this place.—He felt its value Or_
more on account of the effeEt it would have on ,st:if,
rounding Nations to see the Flag of Great 13rIt'
)
ro-
hoisted as an assurance to all who last it, of thethe
teCtion of the British arms, should slte chance to•stabe
in need of it ; and when he came to add to this tro,
desire of the Maltese to continue under Jrd Piii9
teCtion, he way the more induced to exress
reta.,
regret that' this place had not been
ed.—He had therefore no difficulty it' 11C
that under all the circumstances, he of
have assented to the giving up of could
these places had he been in Administratio".
now for theimmediate Question before the 14:',us his
He could not agree to the Address moved `lced
Right Honourable Friend, because it "ni`l'e„i: an
with an- inveetive against the Peace, Ile '3 o;it
good likely to arise to this Country frnfn,,bert,
course of proceeding. In the year 1783.;
a Peace was made, after it was admitted
Mier-
necessary on 'all hands, yet that Peace ; e
„sher
wards made use of by Parties in that and thr ' the
House of Parliament, as an organ to desti'i4l., the
Administration who made- it. He did got jiti that
purpose fot.. which the Parties then decry
Peace; as ltitle did he like the course whl the
taken now against this Pea Ce. Ile bad st3te cur;
points in thc: present case in which he did not On, rty
but he desired to be ur.derstotx.i as not being a Pi`,4s
to any such- Confederacy. He agreed on the "been
with bee°
With the Amendment. And had it nit toe
moved, probably he should have moved %,,J.
Amendment himself. The firSt Address, if 'lgor
to, he apprehended might do mischief. If f ap-
proved of the Amendment, because the genet.'" ota
deney of it was only to approve of carrying odea
efieet the Definitive Treaty, because it was 10u101
on the basis of the Preliminary Treaty, and
had already been approved of by the two 140115"
Parliament.
Mr. T. GR ENVILLE explained. flt 4
General GASCOYNE moved an Adjourtnne"
the Debate.
. This produced a conversation between the CII:14146:'
CELLOR of the ExcHrov ex and 1\1r• Fifijel73tc
expressed themselves satisfied with (lif the
already, and their perfett readiness to te'll°,l
most able Speech of the Noble Lord who Thed 4
fended the Treaty ; but, hoses er, theY
to be understood, that if there were anYc--r
able number of Members who wished to dewb-jettt°
opinions upon the question, they Could not °Getioei'
an Adjournment. )3oth these Right DO' csem
men concurred in this.seutiment, that it `"sip,
tial there should be no unnecessary dela):
decision of this important sub jeft, and both
felt itself satisfied, on what it had heard 'no,, Ole
sides, it would come to a decision now ; but•sbeLi
tv
contrary, if a number of Gentlemen really '4ll i,cc
speak upon it, an Adjournment ought to tAl""ilelt in
for it was.highly important that it should be!
~r the
the House, and understood every where' :sced'
subjeft was thoroughly and completely envi",;/ veo
f
Mr. GREY and Mr. Su ERI OAN both wis3G entic•
much to have an Adjournment ; the farnrrboth
man saying, that ht should vote againstr Gen-
Address and the Amendment, and the latte"pusc'
tlemar saying, he 'had an Arnendmertt Prrnattel.
which would introduce a great deal of clew
into the. Debate. tic!'
The question was then pit on the q-c 5
Adjournment, when the Howse divided•
For the Adjournment - IS7 •
Against it _ _ 135 „cud'
At a quarter before Three the House atlJ°-

.i

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soLrm Quis nselax pnA.suM A'-

LOND 0 N, MAY 14, IS° 2'
---- _ „ , aftic'ef•
Yesterday the Qt.; r. EN held a praw;ng-roorn at 't. ~ t,' q
Yesterday the Lord' Nlavor and She ribs went ,ul. 3 l'
James's, to present the Address to Ho NA.ll'5":" ° t.
restoration ,of Peace. tto ll 'l's
We last night received p • journals f the •
Paris 0
which contain no news. f4l'
This morning a I)utcliMail arrive.d• brought t°
This morning arrived a "'fail from Lishor, brolly' et'
mouth by the King George Piicket; in ten tiays•, s has br it
'The Establishment of the Royal Corpi of :‘1."1-valse lorg:3l7'
fixed by the Admiralty Board.—For a few peacewee— 11111
will be about is,ooo men ancLtl-e permanent .is Co
lishment will be ia - ' Ti 't'- • d Col°l'e t
- ~90. .ie .41.4.011
i 5 rl°
mandant are Semded. arty, alp
the .t kg)
The permanent PeaCe-Estat'alishmenf of
yet finally arranged. That which was gie:',.:i3;tl.
was only the E_stah,lishruenr alter the first ictii:
.- -------..-- T 4
COUNTY OF SOMERSET,/' TI,FNIF',;I4
A T the REQUEST of sever4l f:'' rlLl4'"4
G -00'
11- of THIS COUNTY I appoint at to, 1 e, A
MEETING of the COUNTY, to be held ;,v ins, intG
HALL in WELLS, on Monday the :-Irn ul. '-':-,ft:inlpYl
One o'Clock in the Afternoon, for the puti?`;l?Zi on tli'
consideration an ADD RE SS to H:s MAJ L 5 - I.°
1. She
restoration of PEACE. ;%''.'
BENJAMIN GREEI4I:IIL '
Stow.
Easton, May it, a ' - ---"---- - feet'
____ _ °2"-:----------- - f oow'sloa°
________
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