The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-21 00:00:00

Government with regard to this But. The letter of the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had been regarded by every
Protestant in the kingdom as an indication that be intended
to do his duty to the country in protecting its religion.
When, however, the Noble Lord brcugbt forward a measure,
it turned out to be a milk• nd-water affair, and did not by
any means bear out the declarations contained in his cele-
brated letter. What followed? Some lion. Members
threatened the Noble L rd with a civil war in Ireland; and,
in consequence of that absurd threat, the Bill was reduced to
a wretched remnant. and would have no effect whatever in
preventing the assumption of power by the Bunsen Pontiff.
He (Mr. Knox) wished to take that opportunity of contra-
dicting au assertion made the other evening by the 110 -
.
Member for Dublin (Mr. Reynolds), that Ulster was per
fectly indifferent as to the measures that might be taken ea
this subject. He could only say that the Protestants of
Ulster were as angry at the Papal aggression as they new
were at the conduct of the Noble Lord, who, with the suppieet,,
of a min rity of that H use- (A laugh held the reins of
goverment. He hoped that Ireland would- be included
furln
any measure tha might be carried through the liousee
be considered that the omission of Ireland would be a breach
of the Acts of Union.
Dr. POWER thought that sense of then peeches which bad
been delivered by supporters of the Bill were better suited to
the atmosphere of Exeter-ball than to a calm and dispas-
sionate deliberative assembly. The question was whether
the Pope by the creation of a Boman Catholic hiersichy in
this country, had invaded the supremacy of the Crown, the_
rights of the Established Church, and the independence of
the nation ; and. unless that could be shown, by the evidenee_
of clear and indisputable facts, he for one would feel himself
justifi d in denouncing the present Bill as a persecuting in_eaci
sure-(Hear) - and oue that ran counter to the greet I'll
glorious principles of religious toleration. If the argument.,
of the Hon Member for Warwickshire were are,
against the Papal aggression they were still stronger are?:
ments against the very existence of the Italian Cat
henen.
religion in this country. The Pope was charged with ern",
deavouring to assume territorial jurisdiction in this count...
The Noble Lord had taken care in his speech this
c netjce_
the broad distinction that existed between a civil 51101_1:
spiritual jurisdiction ; but the Hon. Member for OsinserUe
seeing the course the argument was taking, dexter° n lYs
changed the ground, and drew a distinction betwaeee .
spiritual and an ecclesiastical jurisdiction. Thatsuch,
such, end
tinction might be made in the case of a Church not
go ill
r ahwi hierarchy
ai
be drawn da
whose discipline was that it should be governed by a Di
rile, htyh
the
casee admittedu
of
a C;
hbuurtc
ht htait)
e the
la dd ii
us tgi n
pc
rt
ii
no nc i
pCioeu. could
erarchy, he utterly denied. Every Roman
and believed that the Pope bad no civil jurisdictio_nsstlec,,ere,
or auth rity within this realm, and yet, Catholicnotwithiele's"fee
the oath or declaration taken by ell Roman euthuley
berg of Parliament to that effect, they were told that
that the
held a divided allegiance. He was not aware
tiurch bad
supremacy of the Crown over the Protestant_ 0
eh it bad
ever been questioned by Roman Catholics, th uyg a the
been denied by some of the bishops end shear, hear.)
Catholic knell
clergy and laity of the Established Church. k
mot of the
A hierarchy was ( ssential to the proper deTelqhad
Catholic t. buret' • the appointment of that hierarchyu
sp.
not been exercised by the Crown ; and the rig
()e
Ceteu--c
pointment rested in the recognised head ot
ht
ielded a
Church, to whom the membe s of that Church 7
Pre"
reaoy obedience. If, then, by Ps"ing this Bill,
ecclesirese
vented the Boman Catholics from perfecting
their
oleretions
tical organisation, what became of their boasted t limed?
and of the freedom of conscience they so loudly proc
as
ego
Even supposing the act of the Pope to have been '
e would
gression, could it for a moment be supposed that
e The
have endeavoured to support that aggression by forceb
whole
Hon. Member for the West Riding had stated that t
eo
other
ktfisch,,
ii
naval force of the Pope consisted of
a gunbrig and tw
vessels of war ; they knew, too, that his waved.Holineuessupe
this moment supported by foreign bayonets ; and t P
out his
therefore, that he would have attempted to
measures by force was a perfect absurdity. The
4°bila3tie oe-
ber for Bath (Lord Ashley) had intimated that, on a
in,
And
casion, three great Catholic powers, France,
SPa would
Austria, gave their aid to the Pope, but that the Yes
iii that
assist him in any designs upon this cu ° ie. e Noble
could only present itself to the romantic minaf t
Catholic
Lord. If the measure of the Pope had rendered the
ea- were
cserry:_
_ern.
clergy of this country more independent than tu eers__ed
before of the Queen and the Government, if it had interfere
td,
with the allegiance they the Sovereign of EngTeta
or had dimini-hed the venues,reor interfered with the eneeeet
of the Established Church ; then, he admitted, thereu.Tegi'd
have been some cause for alarm ; but none of those T It," ,
been produced. The bishops and clergy of the Cathol. Church
in Ireland had at an early period maintained a long AL_y.itit'ng
with the Pontiff wite regard to the canon,
t.eiesligbe
to the observance of Easter, and had openly deniea .1. a that
to levy money in that count,),; and he believed it Isla au
resistance which formed the pretext to a Roman 11tendee
Englishman by birth, for handing Ireland over to the . the
mercies of Henry H. He might observe, also, that in
mercies
earlier days of the United States, when the Puritsn° °
(,ushers of
England persecuted the Episcopa ians, and the eto the
Pennsylvania persecuted the Presbyterian, they
first to
Roman Catholic colony of Maryland, which Was the
~ear.)
proclaim the great principle of religious toleration.- ri
How was it that there was such apa. by now in ther(.lsteit_eedt.
States upon the subject, which created so much excitement
here? They had their archbishops tied bishops, ue!
e set We
tinual additions were made to the number; and s not
beard of no excitement there. But then they were3,,_
shackled with an established church, which was perpetu A
trembling for its existence, sad at every reform raising
__l'd
cry of " The Church in danger !" If it was in danger tea
its garment was rent, it was torn not so much by is
Roman Catholics as by those within its own Pale'
truth, but for " Pusevism," we should not have bed this
the
4, c omedy of Errors'' enacted in Downing-street, Or s,
comedy of " Much Ado about Nothing" ulenl'eun bad
many platforms -( A laugh.) Some gentlemen °
taken part in this debate, seemed not to be aware that Ca:
' tholic doctrine was immutable, but that the discipline whle".
' would be required in a country like this would be differed'
from that required in such a country as China..-( Hear, bear'
It was surprising that the Noble -Lord at the head of too
ie
Government, who had read history so well, had not draw_ee
from it this conclusion, that penal laws were not the means
by which an obnoxious religion could be checked. It ne..,
been tried in Ireland for three centuries and failed.
Thl,.
Bill would not cffect in this country the object intended
As regarded Scotland, it was palpable injustice, drawing,
&se
it did, a dist fiction between the Protestant Episcopal Church
and the Roman Catholic Church, both of which stood in the
same relation to the dominant Church there. The coloniee.
it was said, were not included in the Bill, because the Queen's
ecclesiastical supremacy did not extend to the colonies; did
it extend to Scotland?-(Hear.) But in every direction
the Bill involved difficulties. In Ireland it was recalling tsh_e.
Catholic Assucistian into existence. If the House die
not
wish to make Ireland the " difficulty" of every Administrae
tion, and to keep there a standing army of at least 40,1 the
0
np rat
peace
theyaid tranquillitys hotil d reject
and
a Bill
best
interestss o
of withtne
count
The moment the Hon. el ember sat down, at least a CIOEO
gentlemen rose to address the House.
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND, who proceeded to FRY
he could not consent to confine the scope of this
The SPEAKER called upon that
so all the narrow limits to which the Honourable Gentleman
who had just sat down e ould restrict it. His (ar' Drw'
mood's) opinion was, that the question the House had as
discuss
was nothing short of this. whether the r•one
Catholics shoeld remain a tolerated sect under the
spiritual dominion of the Qseen, or whether the
Queen should be a licensed heritic under the ePiritu,a,l
dominion of the Pope.--(Loud cries; of " near, boor; e,
Parliament had to settle whether they would have the
, third of the population of this kingdom, under
ed
pretext of " religious developments," to discussioun
be guvief sr
leo;
by a law unknown to the two remaining thirds - 0
hear)-a law which was considered paramount and superi_.
to the law, common or statute, that governed the country,ntr
(Hear, hear.) Nor would this night, or this deb,
tr.
this Bill, or a hundred such, settle the question;
_. be
Pope had raised a storm in this country that wheat, hear
s
quiet again in the lifetime of any present.-(Hear, b;
Now, before coming to the main body of the Pope's sernY_:cire
(Mr. Drummond) should like to say something to tend e:
ss.
mishers es ho had been put in the front of the battle, , se,
pecially those" pbiloaophers ' who affected to stand nruieto
altitude superior to us all and to say, " What sign lee
whether the dog beats the hog or the bog bea s tn
dog ?- (Laughter.) What signifies whether Pat ist Eats
do or Protestant eats Papist ?-(llear, east,
and laueliter). Stand aloof from it all. and leave things
i to take their own course."-(Hear, hear.) It was a Pity
that these " philosophers" did not think so some two or
, three years ago; they condescended then to come down
from teeir heiht, and they did meddle with a Bill sent up
. from that House specially giving as a reason why they in'
serted a clause which justly otfended the Pope, that forbore.
oth
i they would not have the Pope send an "alter eyo" h
Why, the Pope, instead of seeding an " alter sga" had sent A
piece of himself-(" Hear, hear," and asleugh)-pars =lrish
1 corpyris.-(lleer, hear.) But we were indebted to an Irish
gentleman for showing us the value of " philosophers" in all
i Drummond) wished to warn the House
sublunary matters; and whoever had read the Verge ..°
Laputa might know that of all men they were the les't
i fit to guide us on such an occasion.-(Hear, hear.) Ile (Mr'
implicitly Member.
upon anything asserted by a Roman Catholic
ember.- (Laughter, and a cry of "Oh !") Ile did
inot say that the lion. Member would be a bit more cap did
L of wilfully deceiving the House, or saying anything he d
I _ not believe to be true, than any other Member.- (Hear, bear./
But still when a question arose as to the differences between
. the Court of Rome and the See of Horne, one Honourable
r Member Member for
asserted one thing, another Honourable _or
i other. He had applied to the Hon. Member for Y°ugheubflin
. information,
when up started the Hon. Member for p
vidence
• w.th his particular explanation. On referring to the.ewimess
given by Dr. M'Hale on that subject, he found 3'
C the Court of
Rome were not the doctrines or principles bow they relied
to say, that " the doctrines and principles 0, woman Ca-
d thtehe
Rome and the Church of Rome. For Court of
tholic Church, which distinguished bet i_.
ailing, without
might be the scene of much intrigue and cab
Roman Cath
atfecting, at the same time, the decrees of the
Wiseman state
lie Church." llow, after that, could Dr.
the Church
what he had? It was alleged that for centuries
d to daft;
of Rome had undergone no change; but he begged
almost
from those who asserted that, for it had chauge.ving in.
every century, and always for the purpose of 1
indeed, migbt
creased power to the priests. The philosophers,
fuse subject'
twheee uourt of Rome
say, " We ought to have nothing to do wi'h -. •
They might be answered in the way in which a
Bonaparte addressed the senate when some measures to
ing religion were being brought forward. He had, _ French
Catholic religion was that of the majority of tne , they
nation - and if they abandoned so powerful an enginuestnid
would 'be at the mercy of the first impious knave who
would
wish to convulse France. Now that was wba_ allures
O that
inevitably take place in Ireland if they did riot taknecreee.,
to prevent such a state of things. It was said i
what army
the Pope had no army. He should like to know telear; end
the Pope had ever had for the last 1,800 years?--k.
Ministc!
_ot:
) et he had
laughter.) Where was his great army?
contrived to do as rt.u. h mischief in Euro
ally other gentleman ever did.-(llear, and lauehter
effected
still, however, bad all the arms by which he had ever en t
d while
the mischief, and all his oesigne still unchange ; of re-
England had thrown away her arms, and had no powery
was
sistance. It is asked, Where is the attack made? it
done
said that it was only a spiritual and conscientious act, .
ee,
for the benefit of an hierarchical system. How came it ,then,
5_
however, that the Pope seat a cardinal? It was a long
time, fortunately fur us, since we bad any of tea
peAfonrdce-nttliesx
sort of gently amongst us.-(Laughter.) To show_ w_
light in which that class of persons was held by the Pope!
it would be only necessary to refer to a brief letter from on_!
of the Popes to a King of France, relative,teu,
the case of a dissolute cardinal of the name of Buil' 'a_
who resided in that country, and was a reputed natural eon;
of one of the Bourbons, but whom it was proposed to exne
the kingdom. The Pope wrote to the King of F rauceto the
effect that he could not gelid away a cardinal, who was !eue
perior to the law, and that it was not consistent with Ie
zeal which he ought to have for the maintaining of sacred,_A
to establish here. Such was the law which one-third of the
persons and things. Such was the law which they we fed
iaym en . -(No.) The question with the Court of Rome o__l'a
poop e asked to maintain, and that more for priests than,_ffir
been always that of priest and layman. Once they beca:.,
members of the Church, they were no longer eubject to D 7.
other power - they were independent of the King! who en"
dangered bis eternal talYatiQa if be interfered with we

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