The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-03 00:00:00

LONDON, - TUESDAY

fmed
, the preamble, so that the preamble was so
limes
oastomy is proper founoadtm tor it. t hen they
ll.,ene to' the preambte he sheale prese on Government
'll,r.ttptzrcielatyuseo,f 'considerably altering the preawb
which was introduced, not with reterenco to the de-
but to' previsions with which that
ei_ellve had no connexion. Two things wore e.sential;
Vint the measure he framed in steel a manuer as to
Ftevent future legisla,iiin. Tney hat declare' the Pepsi
brief of 1850 illeeal and void; the necessary consequence
of that was that e e ought elso to prohibit try the
,
t", any Oriel for the same purpose coming into thecoun
141. which would occesion a similar am tant of excite-
m"• He might say in the sec rad clause of the Bill it
41ght be -necessary to ietroduce a special proviso eub-
l'ellog•Persene bringing Papal briefs into this c .untry to
Penarty. He
le_ • would state before he came to the end of
de observations the exact words he proposed to intro-
aee in'the second clause. The third point which be
~eught eusential to the proper working of the Bill was,
st ifethey passed a law of this kind care should be
then that. it be enforced, and should not be allowed to
aombar'on lire
'statute-book.-(Haar, hear.) He would
nines liirve no 'Bill atoll than a law whith it was not
litls°'dod to enforce. • Either the measure was just or
ijeaL-1 .IP.unjust, it aught not to be passed into lass;
Ut if litst • n es e
, then oeooreo them to take care that it
isoeuld-not be passed with the intention of not brine en-
th'cled?"<tlear.) 'That raised the question as to how
,Le ime was to be enforced. The Government proposee
41 tethe 'Attorney-General alone should be left the
poser teprosecete Air' the jsi'malty...* He bad suggeated
that any indivi tual sh'ould be at liberty to do so. lie
I:elight both; courses • open• to objection. The Govern-'
stilt plan was clearly open to objection, because by it
"5 cotintry'wotsld have nu guarantee that this measure
Tould be enforced any more ihun the Actor 1829. 0o
,
n other hand, he could not but test that leaving to any -
the 'right of 'prosecution might make tne measure
1;, Instrument of oppression and persecutton. They all
-4evr that there 'were persens who were warm partiseus
"-ellthalsiastin individuals with more zed than dente -
rf°ll, who-Might be induced to prosecute under the lit 1
they had thepower to do so, but who would bring to
;flat
Prosecution their own imperfect intell;gence and in-
it'fallient grounds, and thus defeat the object of the men=
tare- 'lf thatwere. 'so, two great difficulties had to be
dealt
with. In the first place, they were all agreed that
lbe Prihniplee'upon which to proceed was that the law
:gooldhe enforced,,but that in enforcing it it should
the
belerade either vexations or oppressive. Ho thought
euggestion'tif the Hon. and Learned Member fur
itbiogden'-weruld. tn. eet.' this objection: The Hone and
earned Gentleman proposed that the Crown as well as
`fie,, subject thotild be able to prosecute tor the penalty.
ba effect of Abet 'would be that the Crown' as well as
the eubjeet will both of them have the power as well as
Vet interest to '-see 'that the law was properly enforced.
If the ..Attorney General should slumber at his post—
" did not..tbink his Honourable and Learned Friend
would be 'liable to that imputation—by giving to the
subject 'the right to prosecute, and by Imposing on
re Attorney-General the necessity of putting a veto
'a the , proceedings in case he did not 'think the
Prosecution advisable—the Attorney •General would be
prettied becoming. remiss or negligent when the
46..!1l became law. S on the other hand, by giving
Z.' the Crown the righti of vetoing a prosecution by an
ledividuals 'care was taken as far as possible by legisla-
tion to-provide against the possibility of any oppressive
rvexatious' entercentent of the law.—(Hear.) He be-
loved he had explained the greater portion of the
allendtnents he had given notice of, with the exception
Of one :to which the Noble Lord opposite alluded at the
41012elusiOn of the debee on Friday. The Noble Lord
had tleeneasked him what he meant to do with regard
to cumulative
penalties. He did not think there were
any cumidative penalties in the amendments. A power
Was proposed to be given to the Crown of deporting a
person for the second offence. Now there were great
Fiffiuulties-_ho might say there was great imprudence-
-41 any individual proposing such an amendment ss that,
I the Government—with 'whom rested the responsibility
of seeing that the laws were properly observed and en-
forced-.should think such an amendment not necessary
for theauforeing of &law like this. Considering, there-
fore, that-the kesponsibility was with the Government—
°Gosideribg it was, better to prevent, if possible,' the re-
Petition of similar encroachinentshy mild rather than by
severe Mid oppressive ptinislimentse-and considering also
that some erediteughtto be- given to Roman Catholics,
that if the Bill passed they did not intend to disobey it,
he had; speaking' for hiniself alone, come to 'the
eonelusidd that he ought not to press the deportation
Of the three points, therefore, of which 'he had
trete notice, only one was. now before them. .The
f4onae hiving-declared the -brier illegal, ought to pro-
hibit thetititroduction of like briefs under penalties simi-
lar to these 'that were imposed for the assumption of
ecclesiastical titles. He, therefore, proposed .to insert.
after the' words '" any person," the folio s ing words:
who shalt hereafter obtain or cause to be procured
item thettitte of the Bishop of R ones, or shall publish or
Put in issue.-'any brief, rescript, letters apoetolical, or
2ther iertstrument or writing, for the purpose of conetiett-
gig within the-kingdom of England a hierarchy of bishops
named from sees, and with titles derived from places; be-
-I"gb,g.to the,Crdwn of England."—(He-.r.) Theis fele
etlered words which would subject him to the dame penal-
'les as if he bad assumed ecclesiastical' titles.
Tne question having beer. put,
beat
kr. ROCHE thought the amendment sn important
it ought to be printed before being discussed
Mr. WALPOLE said it was nearly the same as the
amendment on the votes. The only diff,reece was that
the words ee United Kingdom" were omitted with refe-
rence to publication; and instead of " for the purposes
aforesaid," be bad main' a recital of them, in' order to
make the clause nee
The ATTORNEY GENERAL gave the Hon. and
Learned Member for Midhurst credit for wishing to
hake the Bill as perfect as possible; but, nevertheless,
thought the clause be bad just proposed open to very
treat objection. In tact, it would have the effect of mak-
log the penalties cumulative. ( rha Hon. and Learned
Gentleman brie proceeded to read 'the amendemute as
they stored on the' paper, when Mr. Walpole intimated
that ha gave opene third amendment.) He (the Atter-
LleY-General).should confine his temarks to the second,
Which the Committee, he thought, would see involved
simulative.,pt wildest. I; provided that if any person
should publish. or put in use, Sc. e, any brief such as that
referred to in the preamble and iu the first clause, he
should be liable in a penalty of loot. But, let it be ob-
Servede.thueif a Roman Catholic ecclesiastic should have
received from Rome a brief or rescript appointing him
bishop of some diocese, with territorial title, he
Would ..be lianle to a . twofold penalty under this
Prevision' in the second clause, because be would be
able it'--he accepted the brief, and he would be liable
if he assumed the title. The title could not be
assumed.except by •of a vescript of the Pope, alio
the real off. nce, and that against which the Bill was di-
rected, was the assumption of the title. By the amend-
ment;, therefore, it-was proposed to split one transaction
into two, and to inflict tor that which was but one of-
fence two penalties. It was, theretore, cumulative in its
Character. If the person who procured the brief was a
different person from the person who assumed the title,
then it might be said that there was a different offence.
If the diocese was once constnuted the rescript might be
supposed. to-have been issued by the Pope tor tee pur-
pose of appointing a bishop, and the parties would be
liable under the provision in the eecend clause. The
AttoriejeGeneral in framing an information under this
sill against the assumption of title under rescript from
Itorne, would state both points, and all the parties would
be liable to the penalty. lie apprehended tt at that was
hot whit the Committee desired. Let the law be well
knowneand ho thought it would prevent a repetition of,
the aggression. .
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that knowing the overwhelen-
ing opinion of the House in favour of legislations on this
subject} be had thought tl at he would best befriend the
theasurteby.leavi g it. in their hands. It was because
he wished to ti. e rt,p Bill efficient that he sleould support
the arnendosent of the 141 Member f Wadhurse. He
did not think Isere w gr uad for the objection of
the Attorney Gen- ..,deed, he the,ught as far as be
had heard the t' a Leatned Gentlemen, that he had
shown, not t se penalty was cumulative, but that
there might be two offences with the penalty attaching
to each. The procuring a retcript end the assumption of
titles were different (Jame*. • So if a p-rsou twine ain
sum. d a title should follow it up .by issuing a pastoral
letter, thst.weithl- be a separete offence.
Mr. ROCHEetheughe the disagreement of opinion
among those learned in the law showed the necessity of
having the amendment printed and considered before
being called on to agree to it. He gave the lion. and
Learned nember for Midhurst credit for wishing to mak,•
a bad Bill worse. Lie-hed no wish to throw obstacles in
the way of the Bill, but fele it his duty to move that the
amendment br-Pe"Oponed.
The CHAIRMAN said it was not competent for the
Hone and Learned Member to make such a motion.
Mr. Hulau had always understood that the consider-
ation of any amendment might be postponed.
The CHAIRMAN said if the Member who proposed
an amendment thought proper toosctonsucednt;
but b
to the
never
ponement of it; then it might be vet
postponed;
knew an amendment postponed merely on the motion of
another Hon.-Member. .
. The lawyers.
Mr. -MOORE urged postponement-
were in doubt, and at variance in their opinions. The
first clause was surrounded with difficulties, and the
House had passed it :without knowing what it meant.
He begged to move that the Chairman report progrein
Sir R. INGLIS thought the discussion whicha
arisen on the amendment had proceeded entirely on a
misconception. It had been assume that the Ho
able and and Learned Member for Medhurst had added
something to the amendment of which be had given
notice, while the only alteration he had made was the
omission of a portion of it. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman did' not propose to taker the sense of. the Com-
mittee on anything which they had not had deliberately
before,them. -
Sir F. THESIGER trusted the Hon. Member for
Mayo- would trot press his amendment for repottieg pro-
gress. because it appeared to him that the Irish Members
—if he might be pardoned the expression—ought to be
the laet.persuns to resist the alteration proposed, for the
amendment pointed merely to the kingdom of England.
From the first .t he. Goverum• nt had declared thsir inten-
tion to extend the Bill to Ireland, and to have the law
uniform. He had ventured to propose an amendment,
extending the Bill to all rescript:!, similar to that of the
29th September; but had given way, in the belief that
the enggestiou of the Hon. and Learned Member fer
hlidhurst would effect the object ho bad in view. He
had, however,. reserved to himself the right of pro-
posing- the__ atneeduieuts iu the report in case the
Hone nod Learned Member for Muieurst should not
be successful. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
by return:dug his amendme-nt to E tgland, had so ch raged
the character of it, that though he app. tired or it es .ar
is it went, he must f.ll -back on his tight to prop Au bid
ewe SlielidOrnt Oil the bringing up of the report.
rak aiao.a&,said-the 14141 Members had no wish to
obitruol the .1311,1.:_ They 444.0 v4eritl4d that,

THE

which ho did not think the English Members—if be
might bo pardoned tee expression—(A laugb)—cared
mu nah ut understanding.—(A I:ugh ) Af er the dtt-
fereet statements they had heard, he was not sure that
the Solicitor-General would not get up and tell them
that the amendment bad quite another meening than
that which had been given to it. As he did not wish to
obstruct the progress of the measure, he bhould with-
draw his in for r-porting progress.
Mr. T. M'CULLAGII said, when they were dissuss-
ing a law applicable to England, and the principle ot
which might be ext-nded to Ireland. it behoved them to
know exactly the position in which they sto,d, lie
would a,k the Ch Armen whether the amendment was ap-
plicable to the Unit d Kiegdem or England only ?
Tile CIIAIRM..I,N.read the terms of the amendment,
by which it apnearei to be applicable to Fligland only.
Mr. T. GI (JUL LAGi I said he waited to know, when
the Hon. and Leal tp-,d Member for Midhurat proposed
passing a law affecting the kingdom of England, whe-
ther he meant to carry out that enactment in that king
dem alone? If so, tic would have to vidd many other
chases to the Bill,
Colonel It AWDON asked the 'Chairman whether a
clause which wei without .he scope of, the title of a Bill
could Le, introduced in Committee ?
The CHAIRMAN was understood to say that the
present clause was within its scope.
Mr. WALPOLE said there were two important
questions to be considered in the present legislation.
What they had to meet was an encroachment upon the
prerogative of the Crown in one place, and the a-sump-
tion of certain titics in other purls of the kingdom Tne
sole object; 'which he bad in view was to meet those
elite; si,d he rqd nut iut.oid it should extend beyond
the spec fie off races it was inalcalarel io meet—nnm.dr,
the eee•titutten of a R 02,11 Catholic hierarchy in
E ietanti. Having r; ad to* ciatro,s. the Hon. and L anent
Member conciu t..d by obi, rving that his preawible, his
declaratory and his en,,ctieg clauses, were all trained so
As to follow pool other h,ruyanou3ly.
Mr. 111CULLAG K still corny:allied that they were
legislating without understanding or knowing what they
were" doing.
The Al' FORNEY-GENERAL said, after his Hon.
and Learned Friend had said he would withdraw his
first and last clause, they could not know what he
meant ;' and he thouet his H-tn. Friend was involving
them in greater difficulties and inconsistencies every step
he took.--(flear, hear.)
Sir F. TtIESIGERI't bought' the difficulties 01 the
judges in Ireland, if any case came before them for
deelsion, would tie incru-as'-d by his Hon. and Learned
Friend's pi noosition.
Mr. TREL WNY said he thought the law should be
the same in both countries on that subject, as well as
every other.
Mr. WALPOLE repeated what he had before said,
with respect to the tvo points to which he conlined his
clause—the encroachment on the prerogative of the.
Crown, and the assumption of eeclesiastieel titles in any
part of the kingdom,
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the Hon. and Learned -
Gentleman had gnt rid of the objections made` to his
clause. What the lion. Member -did propose about
making an assumption of a title an off- nce here, did
make a difference between England and Ireland. Far
his own part, his own objection to the cause was of
general natuie. It was not framed in accordance with
the spirit of the Act of 1829, beyond which the Govern-
ment did not wish to go. tie would therefore 'oppose
that clause, and every amendment of a similar kind which
went to "extend the penalties under the Act.
After a few words in explanation from Mr. WAL-
POLE,
Mr. NAPIER suggested to his Hon. and Leatned
Friend not to press his amendment; as if ever there we-
a time when it was necessary to have uniformity t f prac-
tice, it wise when they were engaged in legislating on a
great constitutional principle.
Mr. STANFORD said the Hon. and Learned Member
fee Pilidherst had conducted hianielf all through the.,
discussion with so much moderation, discrerien, and
judgment, that though differing in religious belief fin m
many Hen. Members around him, he had never heard
one of them impugn that Hon. and Learned Member's
character or couduct.—(Hear, hear) He confessed he
bad not been able di-Untidy to understand some of the
points involved in the particular questions under discus-
sion; and he thought the Hon. Member for Athlone Imo
other Hon. Members who thought with him had a pee-
feet right to demand a full explanation from the G- tvern-
went 01 that system which they proposed carraing out
for the satisfaction of the Protestant people of this coon
try. He was opposed to Popish ascendancy, but bad a
kindly feeling towards his Roinan Catholic fellow-sub-
jects, and he could say that they never sheuld have at;
ascendency of any kind,' B.piab or Protestant, in this
country, which was not founded on sound rear on arid ar-
gument. He had listened with great attention to all the
speeches which had been delivered in the course,
of that debate pat ticulsrly those of the I,w
effioera of the Crown. All parties had -agree'i
that there was • rns intention in pursuing that
legisletion to interf• re with the free action of
the religion of their Raman Catnolie f-llow-sunjeete;
and he oid sincerely be lies.- rh4t there WttS not an Hoe.
Member on his side W. this+ House who weuld not join iit
that sentiru+ at. BLit in legisla iu upon that - strj•
they had matey nr,d serious meters to take into consi-
deration. They It el to consider, as he Itthd done, the
of 11.ehsrd 11., and tie 137 h of Elxsbeth, and
10. h Gen. IV., cap. 27. And having given all these
various Acts Lull consideretion, they should weigh how
far the present position of the Raman Catholics was al-
sected by the existing lsw, and how far it might be ae.
tected by the proposed Bill.—(Hear, hear) By the 9•h
and 10. h Vice, th, se missives of the Pepe were illegsl
and we did not therefore require any new legislatiou ti
declare that they were so. What bad offended this
country was the assumption of titles and the parcelling
out of the kingdom into dioceses; and the Master of thi-
Rolls had stated that that could not be prevented excep-
by recurring to obsolete statutes; so that there appeared
to be no passibility of meeting this case except by the
enactment of a fresh law.—(Hear, hear.) If Hon.
Member s were prepared to follow. the honest and open
line of policy which the country expected from them,
then they would adopt the clause proposed by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole). But
he could assure them that nn siuistrous course—however
dexterous it might be—(Lsughter)—would give satisfatt-
non to the public. He (Mr. StanfOrd) should support
amendment.

Sir R. IL INGLIS objected to the amendment, a!,
creating a distinction b;tween England and Ireland, and
recemmended Mr. Walpole to withdraw it, and reserve
to himself the power of framing some other clause nut
open to the exception which wits applicable to this.
Mr. WALPOLE said that, feeling. his Hoti:7lfrletiB3,
on that side of the Rouse did not wish hitn to penis
clause, he was unwilling to do that. which-Woe:A.lNi cob-;_
teary to their better judgment. He hoped, however; if
he did not put the Committee to the troul:4o. 01 a 14Tision;
that neither the Government nor'thecountrywatild find
—as he feared they might bereatthr find—another brief.
coming into the country, and even-themselves placed.in
a ca-re ea kwarcl position than they were then now.
Mr. HORSMAN co-amended the consistency of the
course which had beers•pursuedbyMr. Walpole through-
out. His 11,.n. and Learned ' Friend's clause had been
found fault with 'because it drew a distinction between
England and Ireland. But that which was urged as an
obj.ction to the amendment constituted in his (Me.
Horsmae) eyes its chief recomae•ndaaion; for nothing
could 'tie more abiiard, in 1. gialating up:m a question or
this kind, than to say that the same principle should
apply to both countries, though the one were Protestant
rand the other Roman atholic—or that because the Pope
bad done something which was insulting to England,
therefore we were determined to put an end to the Papal
hierarchy iu Ireland. He should give his hearty sup-
port to theamendment.

After a ftw words from Mr. SCULLY, in opposition
to the amendment, Mr. Walpole's clause was, by leave,
withdrawn.

Mr. REYNOLDS said, that two hours and a half had
been spent in discussing au umendment which had been
at last withdrawn, and he wished to know if all the
amendments standing in the name of the Honourable
and Learned Member for Midhurst were also to be
withdrawn?
Mr. WALPOLE had already stated the cenrse be
meant to lake. He would support the amendment of his
Hon. se:d Learned Friend the Member for Abingdon
(Sir F. Thsslger) relative to the pros-outing power, and
ne would pr. es his own amendments on the preamble.
After a re v words from Mr KEOGH,
Mr. WCULL AGII moved tee amendment of which
he had given notice, &fur the uords •by law,' to in
ben these words, • or who shall have been recognised
as Roman Catholic archbishop of any province, Roman
Catholic bishop of any oioce,•e or Roman Catholic dean
of any-deanery, by unv of her Msjesty's superior courts
of law or equity, " The documents to which
he would refer - were either originals or at-
tested copies. The first was a document of
the Court of Chancery in Ireland at the time
when Sir Edward Sugden was Chancellor. After the
B, quests Act was passed the Roman Catholic inhabitants
of Drogheda, considering that certain property which
had hitherto been applied to Protestant purposes alone
by the corporation, should be also applied for the benefit
of Roman Catholics, brought the case before the Court
of Chancery, and Sir Edward Sugden directed an in-
quiryr by the Master as to who should be the proper
trustees, and the Master found that the property was
eight Protestant applicable, without regard to sect, to the children of the
the common fun:
poor q the locality, and • •
ty, and m his report the Master named
d ,a,lt2ndes e
fiirgsht t. Roman,.f the
Roman Catholic
c a t trustees
holie tru os
.t'
' tees proposed
tter Henn, being,• in the words of
a:cy:sl;ions were taken; din h
Chancellor Sugden,
the report, o
Archbishop of '8 Rev. Dr. Crolly, Roman Catholic
Armagh, and Primate of Ireland." To
proceedings
et
,leed
ietthem,orl e r
roads
reportbe
on the hearing tofe
re port, and awarded costs,
he affirmed Master Henn':
objections relied. On the
gtestme,ere again taken to
have the stecancy in the
dtoeabthhuwof Dthre. (.rallyyity
. es filled up; and ia
master Henn 's. second report he made use of still more
remarkable words, in tilling up the
seine of " the Most Rev. P
dal Cullen, with the
Cathodic Archbishop of Armagh, and Primate AD . Roman
I Ire-
land" It had been stated in the coorse 'it
all Ire-
land" It had beer. stated in the Conrea 01 the
debste that the present Roman Catholic Bishop presentof
Armagh hail beet+ sent from Italy in vioileion of the
law of the I,nd and the usage of the Irian Church.
But of the tour last fif chhishops of Armagh only one
was elected by the clergy—the other three were trans-
ferred by the Pope from other places: Dr. Curtis from
Spain, Dr. Cullen fr. m Italy, and Dr. K-ily translated
from another see in Ireland. There was a"other case..
A gentleman named Birk • left a large sum tor chari-
table purpos' s to the Rem ,n C.ithelic Archbishep of
Tuans, Dr. el• Hale, and a question haver g arisen be-
tweets the legatee mud the iiinertt.ira . f the Watt, a bill
was fi ed in Chas cer.l, and 1 ..etttrs of adminisirati• n
were sought in the Preroga.ive Court by Dr. M'llale;
the letters of aituinistretien were granted in the name
. . . _
...ot3be-efihiiiiilll46lllllol TAW Daiwa .-drills 4-thst-

SUN,

court, to "John, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Tuens,
and bis Graeae the Prateete e,f icelandi" and the sever
bore the signaaure or the jelge of the (amyl, Dr Keat-
inge. The pr6t-tit, Master ef the Roils, in fleetly adju-
dicating the eaei, referred in his order to an affidavit
made by the " Ronnie Catholic Archbishop of 'Nam."
These were the words. The next ease he would refer
to was one in which a bequest was made to Dr. John
Centwel', Bishop 01 Meatn; and Master Litton, in his
rep wt., foetid that the possession of the prop ,rity veitted
in •.• the Mist R-v. Dr Cantwell, Ronan Catholic
Bishop of aleith; 111 (11r.'M•Collsgh) was eetitlei,
then, to sly that the superior courts ot law in Ireland
bad recognieel the existence of those titles.
Mr. NAME?, said that on every point of the ques-
tion, especially as fur as it related to Ireland, it Vas
important they should see their way clearly, because en
attempt had been (cede to contuse i he state of the law as
re !at'ded Ireland, and induce the belief that there was a
difference between the law of the two countries, and
aka to induce the people of Ireland to believe that what
the Hote4e was now engaged in was a species of crusade
against them and their religion, whereas they were only
employed in declaring what was the law and•the eon-
etitutiort of the country in the matter. And when he
heard the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) the
other night telling them that they were declaring war
against B,OOOJOOO of her Majesty's subjects, at a time
when they were only explaining the law of the land, he
listened with pain and indignation to the Right
Honourable Baronet. What he challenged Hon curable
Gentlemen to show was, what diffareuce there was be-
tween the law or the two ceunttiea The Hon. and
Learned Gentlemen, in his amendment,' spoke of the
Reinert Cath(ific archbishops. bish-ro, or deacons who
;.hall have been rec,,grrsed as such by the superior courts
ot law and equity. With legate] to the courts of law,
he had heard no instance mentioned of their having re-
cognised them. But there were scene cases which had
occurred previous to the Act of:'29 to which he was
surprise(( that reference had not been made. The only
case in Ireland which would be affcted by this new
legi.latiort was that of the Bishop of Galway; and even
with regard to that it did not make the assumption of
the title a new offence; the annexation of a penalty to
what was prohibited by the Act of '29 being in fact but
new punishment. With respect to what had been said
about letters_ of ordination, marriage certificates, and
the like, and their being put in evidence in certain cases,
in all his experience he had never known an instance
hut one of the kind, and-that was-the case of a marriage
certificate. But with reference to the cases he had re-
ferred to as occurring in the law courts, one was an ap-
plication to the Queen's Bench by.a priest, who had be-
come a Protestant, for a maredsmus to compel Dr. Murray
to give him letters of ordinatian, in order that' he might'
prove his title, and,obtain preferment in the Establi,hed'
Church. Chief eri.utitica•Bushe, a man of ahe moat marked
courtesy, delivered a written judgment, and throughout
he called the Rennau Catholic bishop. Dr.. Murray.
Again, in the case of a property 'demised to ietßualata,.,
Catholic bishop and his successors,: a question aieeeton •
the death of the bishop between, the .heirrat-16v and the;
successor of the bishop, the former Claittnng by desaent,
the bishop claiming as devisee; and the Wit-at-law tater
needed, the Court not recognising the official cha,raltert
of the title. But what was the opinion of Dr. M`Hale
himself on the question of titles? In the year 1830 a
writing to the Bienop of Exeter, Dr. fil•lliale said, " Lep.
then, your titles and your palaces, As for your titles,
leaving the vein ambition of such baubles to your Lord-
ihip and the Gentiles, we shall be Content with the more
Christian office of administering to the spiritual wants
of those over whom we are appointed." Iu the case re-
ferred to by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the ti s-
tator bequeathed 37,0001: fur charitable purnuses to Dr.
Murray, Archbishop of Dublin, and Dr. Kelly, Arch-
eishop of TuAia, and their successors: Ott the death of
Dr. Kelly, Dr. Murray and his co trustees executed a
deed or appointment nominating Dr. M.‘liale the succes-
sor of Dr. Kelly, but Di. Mlliale dtd not as a matter of
course, us being the successor of Dr, Kelly iu the see ot
Nam, become a trustee withaut that deed of appoint-
ment. Again, in the case of the letters of administra-
tion referred to by the Hon. Gentleman as having been
taken out by Dr. Vlef-Ittle in this Prerogative Ceara how
did he sign the administration bond? Why, with the
aeirds "J. *Hale." As to the case of Sir E. &Opp,
it was to be observed -that Sir E. Sugden bever'saw it.
The. Master certainly did see it, and did, as he would
have done himself in similar circumstances, permitted it
to pass where there was no qty-stion about it. Such
then Were the cases on- which they, were called upon to
make, a provision. But then they were told of the
Bt goests Act. Why, the book he held in his band,
written by a Rowan Catholic • barrister, referred
to the Bequests Act., and declared that the
rights. which the Roman Catholic bishops ex-
ercised could be so exercised without acknow-
ledging them to be bishops of any patticuler diocese;
and also that the Bequests Act made no alteration in
'heir •stutus.--(Hear.) And yet it was said that it
amount -d to a declaration of war against her Majesty's
Roman Catholic -subjects a hen they were called upon to
peseta; de!easive Act—(llear)—atedin so doing, he said
that they c told make no distinctfon between Englena
and Itelancf. He di nied that the Renian Catholics
in Engrhini were entitled to less !betty than the Roman
Catholics in Irelaud, or that the Protestants of Ireland
were entiled to leas protection than the ProteAauts
Eeglatl.—(Chtiers.) It they made t.ny such dietinctioe
tee asked What kind of a United Kingdom they were to
have ?

Mr. REYNOLDS was not, he sail, disposed to fol-
low into the maze of law into which the Hon. and
L,->arned G:ntleutan would 1,-ad them, and who on this
occasion was to be reg,rded as counsel for the Irish
branch of the Prores'ant E tsblished Church of England
and Ireland.—(Hear.) Th,-, Hun. and Learned ntle•
man had referred, he said " with pain and indiguivion"
to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Mensbar fir
Ripon. These were air wig words to be used by one of
the melt and religious charac er of the Hon. and
Learned Gerirleman.—(l-I,nr.) Now, he repeated the
words of the Rtght Hon. Baronet, and he 'said that the
Roman Catholic people of Ireland would consider this
Bill a declaration of war against their religion.—(Hear,
hear.) Ho went further, and said that it was his belief
that if this Bill became law. 'the Roman Catholic re-
ligion could riot be carried on in Ireland but by the
permission of the Attorney-General for the tim.
being._( Hear.) Although he intended to vote for
he proviso, he set little value on it, as it would not refer
to more than a few bishops, and even if it were carried
ne would set little value on it.—(Hear, hear.) Neither
would he have voted for the amendineet of the Hon. and
Learned Member fur Midhurat, which exempted Irt land,
because, in doing so it would have imposed penalties on
the It.,man Catholic Church in Englund. He believed
that the first clause beieg adopted without any exploits
t4frt,proviao, the otherclauses were of little consequence,
'fh lin the first clause might be said to be " the Bill, the
4 :4413114 and nothing tint the Bill." The Bill itself
,
a declaration of religious war; it was an attempt
to prop up' th4ireligion of the minority in Ireland, ebb
if) throw'Obaterclea in the way of the Catholic Church in
Ireland7established therein by no human law, but pro-
vided; maietaiue44.44d Preserted therein by the law of
•God; and he no* told the Governmenkahat the RAnan
Catholics' wean ld sooner hicrifiLartlieir: lives :thamaubmit
to any law'which interfered Witts'their religion:
Mr. J. O'CONN BLTY 6ttiarkerliiliat; at the time of-
passing the Etnandipatioaßiltit•!NAT ben 'idEtsially in-
timated to, the Homin'eitilshliatifiliteitbetthe 'ctittse,
in that Bill affecting-Ott tiAes woull notrbe acted upon:
Bearing'that in millet fheY, tided on
an argument was-noLi6aof,
_,st:criau_Tosinded 14 the $4.;
and Learned Member for the TittiverZti yf Ltehgriovho,,
in theistme breath, argß-4 Oat ..twiattemtketmenv),,:te be
paid to wordi delibetrateVr inserted, in legal tieeds.-, .He
regret ted dhat the, Mau 'afid lLeaftedt Mensbern Md.- not
imitated the exainple-Wlits. diAtiliOwth.6% itt Iroland;
and not joined in that , commtm ;lamour against tno.
Roman Catholics which' wai 'At 774isgractral 'to this
country.
Sir W. VERNER remarked that the Hon. Member
for Dublin told the Noble Lord at the bead of the Go-
verommt that it this Bill passed it would be opposed by
the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He, on the contrary,
said, if the Bill became law it would be Yupported by the
Protestants of Ireland.—(He ar, bear.) How could they
be called loyal subjects who dared the head of her Ma-
jesty's Government to enforce the la*? If the Roman
Catholics opposed the law of the land, then they would
be rebels.--(Hear. hear.) And yet this was said by a
couple dozen of Roman Catholic M'mhers who were not
allowed to have an opinion of their own, hut were forced
to obey the wishes of their clergy.—(Cries of" Ob, oh,"
and cheers) He (Sir W. Veruer) hoped the English
Members would put a stop to this proceeding, they had
the means in their own hands.

Mr, M. J. O'CONNELL hoped the Government was
awake to the topics of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman.
The opposition of ihe-Hon. Member IT Dublin was leis
fatal than the support of the Hon. and Gallant Member.
The rupp o r tors promised by him were those men whom
Sir R. Abercrombie once said were dangerous to every
one but the enemy. Remembering past times, the de-
claration of the Hen. and Gallant Officer gave ct,use to
suspect danger. He flung bsek upon the Hon. Baronet
Pie imputation that Catholics had no will of their own
with calm but perfect scorn. They were, moreover,
members of no secret societies.

Mr. SCULLY said the loyalty of the men adverted to
by the Gallant Colonel was not long since designated "a
sixpenny loyalty," and there was no reason to suppose it
had changed its character since 1849. He deprecated
such imputations as were cast upon the Catholics of Ire-
land by the Hon, and Gallant Gentleman, and denied bis
statement as tl the number of Protestants in that coun-
try. In contusion he called upon the Government not
to
place any dependence on the quasi Orangemen of Ire-
land, but to depend upon the luvii and loyalty of the Ca.
tholics. .

'Sir W. VERNER explained. The Hon. Member had
dared the Prime, Mieitrer to pass the Bill on pain of the
oppo,ii,ion of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He (Sir
W. Verner) believed that the Hon. Member did not re-
present)piniens of that body; but if he did, then he
Verner)' bad nothing t) withdraw from his state-
sir W.
the. t
Mr. REYNOLDS explained. He had never dared the
Prime Mii,ister to pass the Bill; but he told. him his
threats had no weight with him (Mr. Reynolds); and
that if he passed any penal law, the Catholics of this day
would &totes their ancestors had done—suff 3. even death
for their religion if nen &stay. He (Mr. Reynolds)
denounced the conduct of the Hon. and Gallant Member,
for urging on the Government to cut down his Catholic
-
fellow-countrymen. He would tell him that the Catho-
lics despised hi, threats, and defied his power, and that
such brsggadocia was laughed to scorn by the people of
Ireland.
The- Honour-ale and Gallant Gentleman
talked of 24;00.000 of Protestants ; but in 18
.35 there
were only 750 000 Epiaeopsliani, and 750,000 of all
o,hr-r di, nominate m. The Honourable Gentleman, with
" 13"'I° "t ihe Dasniond " courage. said the Protestants
of lielaud were three millions.-;(No.) If these state-
ments were not controverted, Honourable Gentleman
would go on intuiting nail they, believed their own
OirtY' Ihiti WY111:440,10PA144".

•

would be en, end of this Battle of the Diamond blasting
—the DoII);s Bale boasting—,trl that the Governmfnt
would sec )11ect the rate.-in-aid loyalty of the Momb,lrs
for Protestant c.insituencies in Ireland of
" Quostion ") The boasting of the G4llant General was
what he (Nir. Roynold:9 called " Tallsgh Hill" talk ;
he'could;net, and ho dared not, carry it into execution.
He (Mr. lt.-yeold9 repeated his statement that tha Pro-
testants of luland, as a body, were not in favour of the
Bill. _ _ _

After a few words from Mr. J. O'CONNELL, in ex-
platiatiote
The Gmamittee disided, when there appeared—
For he atnentlinent • ... 45
Against it ... .„ 291
Majority against the amendment
Mr. M0.01,4E; then reposed as au ameacLnent, after
the words Euv,lted and Irelati(l to, insert these. words,
"so long es the sail Church shall c retinue to be the
United Courch of England and Ireland." ft appeared to
him that those stile wishe f that the Established Cnurch
should continue as it wad la both countries would have
an objeotiea to that proposition; but another section of
the Rouse, including the Noble Lord himself, who did
not wish.ahat the said Charch should ba the Church of
England and Ireland, could have no objection to his pro•
position... Toe Noble Lord himself had &elated, on pre-
vious occasions, that such were his opinions. On a
memorable occasion the Noble Lord had said that
unless they made a sweeping reform in the Eita•
blished Church of Ireland, there ought to be a re-
peal of the Union. He would entreat of the Com-
mittee to consider at that motneni chat were th,
feelings of dissatisfaction and disaffection in Ireland
in conneXion .with the Established Church in Ire-
'land. That est sblishoient in Ireland was only continued
inalinain a flimsy sham, at which he believed even is
supporters laughed ip. their sleeees.:--(Qee.tion, gees-
t(on.) He would leave it to the judgment of the Noble
Lord to bring forward that, tneAsuro in respect to the
Established Church in Ireland. that he had so lung 1.11
them to anticipate, anti which. they had a right to ex-
pect froth his sense of justice
The CEI AIR NIAN having put the question,
Mr. H. DRUM MOND said he should think that there
would be a great want of propriety in nim if, upon a
clause in a Bill having objeces wholly disconnected with
the state of the Established Church in Ireland, he ven-
tured into any such irrevalent matter. He was not sur-
prised that there was suoh a considerable feeling of dis-
appointment in the House at the btite to which that
diecussion• had arrived.—(flear, hear.) It did not
heeeme him to' offer any advice to the 1.1 'use; but
for• himself he would pursue this course: he would
not attempt to modify, to amend. or to alter in nay
.way' the provisions of the Bill. Let the Government
and those who choose to m-ddle_ with it,, with's-view
to its perfection or dew-re-:den, treat it• as they
'pleased, for it was their own enild. But he would ven-
ture to suggest to Hun. Gentlemen that they should re-
serve theme, Ives for that which ho thought was an
exCeedingly likely and the, best course, in order not to
decieive the country with a false measure, which was in-
tended by words to enact that which it never could do,
'and by which they would really compromise their own
'character vi4ll as deCeive the people.—(Cheers.)
.'Mr. REYNOLDS said it occurred to him that the
Noble L,ird should favour the Committee with his opi-
nion as to the merits of this proviso, He was desirous
to have the benefit of his opinion, recollecting as he did
the many brilliant and powerful speeches that had been
delivered by him on the subject of the Irish Church.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Mayo had now
furnished the Noble Lord a golden opportunity of ex-
pressing himself on the aubject.e--(Laughter.) He
grounded his belief upon his last memorable effort upon
the appropriation clause discussion in 1835, when he
carried hitimotien triumphantly through the Rouse; the
result of which was the dislodgement of the late Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) from office. Would
die Noble Lord then divide the Committee now upon
The harmless proposition of the ,Hon. Member for
%bye? Would he enable them to tell the millions of
Ireland—aye, and the Presbyterians of Scotland and
England, that the Noble Lord was anxious to remove the
injustice of the Established Cnurch in Ireland Was the
Church of the minority to be still fumed upon the im-
mense majority of that country, who were compelled to
naintain it along with their own? He thanked the
Right Hon. Baronet in his own name, and in the name
of nis fellow.cnuntrymen, for the manly advocacy of the
int.-rests of 7,000,000 of Irish Catholics, whose grati-
tude would compensate for the harsh sffeets of the lan-
guage of the lion Member for the University of Dublin.
Lord J. RUSSELL said his opinion was that the
speech of the Hon. Member had nothing to do with the
`amendment before the House, and he should therefore
decline the invitation to enter upon the discussion of the
question of the Established. Church of England and
Ireland.

The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... ,36
Aghast it ,240
Msj,,rity against the amendment ... —204
Mr. REYNOLDS moved that the Chairman report
progress. and ask leave to it again. .
Lord J. ItUSS.,,LL consented to the motion.
animate., to be rebuined Oil Friday.
Tho Prisons' (Scotland) Hilt went through Committee.
SALMON FISUERIES (IRELANP).
Mr. CONOLLY moved fur have to. Uring in a Bill to
conwlidate and amend the laws relating to salmuu
tisberies in Ireland, but stated that it was not hts in-
tention to pr.--s it dairit,g the present session.
Sir W. SOMEItVILLE wou:d not oppose the intro-
duction of the Bill after the statement of tha Honourable
Nlember. _ _

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, which was
read a first time.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND ob-
tained leave to bring in a Bill to emend au Act of the
11th and 12,h years of her Slaj-sty, relating to poor-
rate poundage and the v,luation ut ecclesiastics' property
In Ireland, and to provide tor the renewal of leases of
lands disapproptiated fi um bishoprics.
On the motion of L•ird J. RUSSELL, Mr. Fox Matile
was di.charged from further attendance on the Sylket
Committee on Kafir Tribes, and Mr. Labourchere was
added to the Committee.

The other busiuf.ss was then d,sposed of', and the
House adjourned at a Qaurter to One p'clock.

DEATH of the EARL of SHAFTESBURY.
We regret to announce the decease yesterday of that
venerable and much-reap'.cteil nobleman, Cropley Ash-
ley Cooper, Esrl of Shaf esbury, Bar on Ashley of Wim-
borne Sr. Giles, county. Dorset, Baron Cooper, of Pau-
pert; county Somerset. and a baronet. The noble de-
caused was born Dec. 27, 1768, consequently he waa in
the 83;1 year of his age. He tnarried, Dec. 10, 1796,
Anne, daughter of George, Duke of Marlborough, and
emit of the present-Duke, and succeeded to the title of
Earl of Shalte,bury on the death, of . his brother, the
sixth Earl, in Hay, 1811. Four sons and three daugh-
ters survive the late Noble Earl, the eldest of whom is
Lord Ashley, now Earl of Shaftesbury, whose elevatien
to the House of Peers creates a vacancy in the represen-
tation of the city of Bath.
Thai late: Eal of Shaftesbury for many years most
ably filled the high and responsible office or Chairman
of Committees of the House or Lints; and on his retire-
ment a short time since from that onerous post received
WI well-merited eulogies of the beads of all parties.

aver";to.B4(y);ttrihtiet.einotedleltilizdeneecel
hrte;ct
D:EATH OF 3111:-RIC11.4RD LALOR SHELL.
thleedlt'-togwh terd ay altetioo.n,
,-Hithara...Litor Shea,, her ifisjeaty's recently appointed
Ai ii4eter atilheilourt of Tuscany. The immediate cause
,Of this melancholy event is stated to have been an attack
iltalcmitehnnt
at
bilne
deathilitiHeotnh.
jeGueentlehin.lasnw's,
,of gout in the stomach; but there is real ,n to believe
'ghat a late tregictahle
fMamr.ilryo, ati'e'vru,ivolfngGariven, occasioned a shock which has
proved to -great tor the highly excitable nervous sus-
ceptibility and keen sensitiveness which invariably ac-
e, rapatijem the higher oraer of genius aucti as distn,
guithed Mr. Shill. The Right Hon. Gentleman was in
his 57th year having been burn in 1794. He married,
first, Miss O'Halloran, neice of sir. VV. Mahon. Bart.;
secondly, 1830, the daughter of John Lalor, E,q, or
Crana, near Cloi,niel, relict of E tnaund Power, Esq ,
of Gartern, c.unty
Tipperary. He was called to sue
Irish bar in 1814; was Vice-President of the Board of
Trade from Msrch, 1839—when he was app Tinted
Privy Galucillor—till June. 1841; and Judge Advocate-
General from June to SyVemher, 1841.

LAW PROPERTY ASSURAr.CR AND TRDAT SOCIETY.
—The first. annual general meeting of this society was held
at the offices, 30, Essex-street. The chair was taken by
Edward William Cox, Esq., the chairman of the society.
There was a numerous attendance of the shareholders. 'Die
report congratulated the meeting on the entire success of the
society. At the end of the tirat year the income more thin
doubled the expenditure. so that already it had become self-
supporting, a fact almost unprecedented in the history of
assurance offices. They had received 313 proposals, of which
192 were accepted and in force, yielding an annual income of
2,2341., and 27 other proposals had been accepted and were
in progress of completion. Not a single lite assured had
dropped during the year. All the shales were subscribed
and only a few forfeited ones remained. The utility of the
assurance of leaseholds And copyholds, and of the redemption
of mortgages and loans, although a novel application of the
principle of assurance, was already recognized by the public,
and many policies of this class bad been effected. The
assurance of titles was beginning to be understood, and many
proposals were before the board. Ihe application of this to
the use of large properties sold in small lots by substitution of
a policy of assurance of title for the investigation of the whole,
and attested copies for each separate purchaser, was likely to
be very exti nsively adopted. The expenses of forming the
society, including the registration, Ssc., and every cost, had
been singularly small—not exceeding t,2001. Their excellent
offices cost them only 1001. a year including taxes; they
had one of the most efficient actuaries and secretaries in
London, and their entire office expenses did not exceed 700/.
a year. There was no doubt now that the society would
speedily become one of the most ex-ensive and influential,
as its objects are the most useful of any yet established iu
the United Kingdom. The report was unanimously adopted.
A sum was voted to the directors and auditors, with thanks
for their services. The retiring directors having been re-
elected, and thanks unanimously voted to the chairman, the
meeti g separated.
[ADVERTPM EENT.l—lrid;g;.stion and Corn tileintls
of the Stomach cured -by Holloway's Pills —The symptoms
arising from dyspepsia and d sordered stomachs are spasms,
flatulent and acid eructations, langour, want of appetite, dis-
tension of the stomach, flushed countenance, sense of oppres-
sion and sinking after meals, dejection of the spirits, defective
circulation of the blood, a so frequent pains in the head and
breast. To remove these unpleasant sensations it is only neces-
sary to take a few doses of Holloway's This inestimable
medicine will soon palliate the most urgent symptoms, restore
the tons of the. stomach, and prevent a recta rence of the dis-
ease.—Sold by all druggists, and at Professor Holloway's
Establishment, 244, Strand, London.

TELE ROUTE TO AUSTE.ALI4.—The Parliamentary
Committee on steam communication with India, China, and
Australia, decided yesterday (ll° day), by a majority of 11
to 5, in favour of the route to Australia, by the Cape, 6.4 being
t4ti Von Viirable fvztDe tcullivrt 'ci