The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-09 00:00:00


0 bees 10, otea gee bite
: he Os t ell sid ""° self egregiously:mistaletn.-(Cbeers from
ration, Ise c, ek) He
repeated, that when the Honourable
edinarY „11leg', 'oernatuleonan (Mr. O'Dwyer) asked the question, "Are you
to
reconcile feittining ohr
ids esetornosyciinegnetehethe Church?"greatest hpenssDi
brie Lush-
ren.isl,Poc'unetnitye,7_.,o ington
ror te_edetst(es7f2 4
I_,
the interrogatory with the solemn obligation
cl•Onßdaitri7ol of Ibel ki,o.reitoareZd•---(Near, hear, hear.) Others might be
int he 1! °°llgatio° u° In defining the scope and extent of the
this pt the Ore, gilas 13 of the oath ; but he took the plain and intelli•
at •• tneanine •
:in'r ber of the l' -estate wo ,--e of it to be, that those who entered the
here read :1 11; wooke.. 0 lici never lend themselves to any attempt to
rd Pluokeet '',,'• Fe alibi:3;llr d.estroy the Protestant establiehment. -(Cheers. )
bed the "ae.i'i rtforts6of
,I?e (Dr. Luebington) was an advocate for the
,rls yet he
.. ;he Church, and for the remedy of its abuses,
lion of four
i is inlashilto vourr
would go,
ao far as his own bumble endea-
tabt thrill" • tod. A ° go, to maintain it inviolate even unto the
Y 4 the P Roe ?1 '1 to the pros • for tithes mentioned by the
words si-spot' ~. • !ems prosecutions
he (Mr. si to "oerat e_ "sl, they were instituted io pursuance of a
from a ~,„‘ptas at 11,41
regardwitii.Presa into which Government isad.been forced • • feces- , sat il, to costs, he might be permitted to state,
alinHge Pwouts
ratp; :,..f,,,,,,470A.tt.::
ney and Solicitor-General for Ireland had
o other rai 0 "as Gen ,I 'Ye a shilling in the shape of fees, There
t iGarope . 'eons
,_ tlereen in the House who could not bear testi-
; Hon. p
the prel which the fact
11,4 sad
takenof place on the present question, there had
resolved to /.
I „ Ceth°llt t't, disturb e slightest attempt made to deny the existence
'Pre
reale , of ance in Ireland-in fact the admission was una-
°l.
srgetarY fbt ' habitshi that the country was in a condition scarcely
e See ,ref r! arrise, e there was, therefore, no other conclusion to be
ironet %°oollf for t,4 at than this, that instant' means must be adopted
xistence of , lot 1 "Rote •
ilto, wi , etion of persons and property. The question,
as astoni:hriseus: I,
reedy r deli the House had to decide, was the proper ra-
id their le'. rte tie tide
~ der such circumstances, resorted to. Ott the
btu.4laneyi heard the often-repeated cry of do jug-
Church Prlle.r.et'
h esti the grievous, the calamitous system
1.1 'es
I a mere uls." Which ,t
00
afirePp, °lated Ireland, were, in the first instance,
gentry ~,rl9 kea, so
approach could be made towards that
itainn :iiitoi:ros riesere
of
.
r are
Justice which, on the one side, was so loudly
"'The messur:e. ;,11,5ed. 'and Which, certainly, on the other, was not eess "' "ah affairs For himself, he bad always upon the subject of
I said, " h„t le that b
utation ; il- se; that ~ eed a follower of Mr. Grattan, and he found
catholic Por h 0 eh distinguished man had, on different occasions,
'Church tai'sta- t,te of
aft:eintirnents which, if applied to the present pos.
unction 10s, pal leirdo Is, would be an exertion of the soundest poli-
-111, that '4. In the year 1808, what was the language
devoid of
i.,s Ce great man ? He said, in pity to Ireland, arm the
thought tl'' t thattrorno
'merit,
age, 1.,, coori,_°t With He
to save the unhappy people of
He &6:e t_Tee so, IrY from each other-in humanity to save the
eople.
.rry 011 i'lltyt
6`.1, erOpettieS of the unoffending portion of his Ma-
,h prergos, ' Nilo uoJects itt that country.-(Hear, hear, bear.) He
Right 7 /
aldlitio"sitittltotitei'lightest hesitation in saying, that he, for one,
he clergy • . oil,
would 'it'. ' a Nat if he been found amongst the supporters of the
sea ding, 11/ le, °e had seen the slightest reason to think that
sect, by •- , Tie betty `4B
_were contemplated towards Ireland of greater
parishes °I r for of duty than
,4elliaibi were absolutely necessary for the repression
eeded. ;'beers)
for
a !eel, ne, and accompanied at the same time with
cope at
•th Ur" of conciliation and such a meed of justice
si-vep(CoceLsrij,, °liatle,tteelldeebesisities. of the country and. the suggestions of an
• zle I. 11 'sg said anlty and a wise policy might recommend.
,1 a sin, eals , e tog thus much upon the subject of
.Ilish affairs,
nent, tnene,,,,A, 5, (sr,. elk
tn k
a e one remark on another topic of the ad-
, uncontrow. g rei,"t:snatu
r the lto eIY, that which had reference to our foreign
adebted f° ,i,efl hid ~tik Th ,
erairintehde
btyeaaso.4 44) soebtns e Right Hon. Baronet on the other side
s 0,,,,, sod 11`," the legality of the embargo on Dutch yes-
ele I, Cu4r 'd seemed to contend that, in every instance,
iter.) • ~,, I he el'es w ,
tied oeyerivife,e es greste ere out initiatory to war. There could not
, altl r naist!ke• Lord Stowell-than whom there
ar to the 100 the iiis . sot be
theo
death 00th foierit do, a higher authority-had in many instances
ression. .411,1 cis e4oit teats 0, that embargoes were not necessarily the
he referreup N th o.f tear. Let the House only remember the
p pis , es, e invasion of Hanover by Russia. That was
for J Ira, .5 of
able:. atorshlP'e the !t 'lva' as between Russia and England, nor
a ddicltatorshiP,,6, il Shie° leading to war between those countries, fur
,s sous
„u'll, tTe
shahrn, that attacks made upon Hanover did
peculiar's e se' el si i,
~ ue s*
to, ,t 4 1 sfi,etest degree affect the well-being of any one
ear.) " ,
dao!,e et a het J4tY's subjects in. Great Britain, and yet these
only be e 01,k,g'ss we ,
of the .0 Ad i)g
at re laid on without the slightest hesitation.
;egrity , Hos
t!
,iteS4eillliest,troarrioverY part of the foreign policy of the present
rl, he could not but say that he thought it
cried owisr toro,)
, (Cbee 1. (4 'Pr Y respect that which was entitled to the confi-
nee r--- A je, , ,gee the L.,
mid a VOL: byT with" i hear' House, and the thanks of the couenry.-
ich in the
roil, eoial,,olle-04rt.) He should now only trouble the House
S,tHas sir,,,. two remarks further, and they should, he
eted--ov(eCr bor..,V;
o It
late ie."' hem, relate to matters only of the very
eated e .beyrr, it ha
itl°Portance. Much reference had been made to
believe t
~ 0
is b
S easure of Reform, and by many Hon. Members
ant on oe Yet
isys- , , 4 6o,teen treated, as he should be inclined to regard it,
have elnP
,b, , its ~,
11Q-uNe was snare, at least so far as the extension of the
to the dea` 10,
concerned ; at the same time, that if a eno-
ublished ifa, se' the seers 3
.d ~‘ Iti,,` rtade in favour of the ballot, he should, after
-and m s figS, "LthS-"lefs • • rioting which had come
rid-(Hear, 1 to I'l his arising from open
nci--st,e °ll' t I. 441. knowledge,not be disposed to refuse his support
,tai's yhe
of i°l:ts 14;11 alteration. But whether with reference to that
or to
8d
oa 1 tipt'ibt.,) °ther question, he hoped the House would feel
ten tatir; 5 ~
31, 1 4„. I'o° 14expediency of crowding too many questions
what A Joh, `9.04 0 attention of Government in that their first
ever used re it
he °P a Ref()
the rit *O4. by th rated Parliament, for all that they might
thatconsider;n, f el
e 5 of a" be morePparent accomplishment of many object,
.ioa o , 4,41
beingthan counterbalanced by the evils of most
destrue` seitl,kt is, .. • . d
die a it, test \VAL, pel fectly and injudiciously treate .
; to
to ° ehr a eil rER said, that he could not allow himself to
a all par 0
tritentei(Ot vote, though he should not trespass long on
GeatleV,, 114°1101,4! W. the House. Notwithstanding the num-
lion' probs,oo ti,t titlttianl contlined in his Majesty's speech, the debate
or')., rsisn I , lity 4i04 .Wholly turned upon a single topic-namely,
Y Hme , etis' p, 04 with Ireland. On that head all he should then
the distio j,,s 4,4,, that ,
_ „or , Of t,,1 41 ~ he cordially agreed with the sentiment ex-
des
is owlS _ 01, the 4t„ ''''e speech : he should ever oppose a separation
potism' s,
e Do ~ oti.aetilfea c°,dntries, and every idea of difference between
'y
wile' 11hterid b 'NI /s°° inhabited them. With respect to
.the
and 10' /fie e,a'il °lotion
seth••"-` le 4 h,,io the of the Noble Lord, the most interesting,
thoektrwwthateirs eetilltitte oynt trio
Perplexing part of it related to Ireland.
•disele ell
that
ot, 11,4 t country demanded the most speedy and
he n •01018 t es, tteso,?lltion ; and they were now to decide whether
The 1 in t b Pitt, "(in could be bestowed most beneficially by
courtesy so° 'ifs t the ,
, : au to
~r elip,O, or course suggested by the Hon. Member for
ateu in , ght• to 'lilt .bY proceeding-so tar as they could, under
r, and 14 ssre, badlhe elrcesisr
wool'; se S hpeorh ances-by the usual
helotmetod of replying
rid
dreo! t_
p 0,0 , 41,04 , and then entering, with ost pomp-
Is an ,eur Prlr, itie Pi'lied , the consideration of the proper remedies to
t it : y
A wbe i wett 1/41. "4 the removal of those evils, which everybody
eecurre" nil° e -IQ to •
tlil dot% °aches , Met. It had been slid, that the speech
ant of acct
i noor th,i Iteto 'ld too strong terms of menace against the
For libel • e fla
si t the' setae: se Public peace in Ireland. He contended
net.
aes ", ei`s were justly employed against the violaters of
ware 0 f all fro.,
a,s,Nief
of Bled with assurances of the redress of wrongs,
their trot $ Isighalote, 'tarring. On this subject of suffering, he
r that pro th, t trOngl
I 00. ,iet 14„froth t, - Y impressed by what had fallen on the first
gilt lists 91' f deßi,` that ii"e Member for Knaresborough, than by an
i'nfveold Vrt of 44Sttoo,sd been seid on the other side about political
Inge ay, °loll lato Payt,e and partial administration of justice. Want
to
.s
e's„ete.., hi
oe, were ti, and starvation, which was the conse-
it his 'irit 00; so 14 affect
suffie.
r and sod NI ecte., lent to account for the substantial evils
ore, /e is reto 111,„ 4 the happiness of the Irish people ; and he
ke
tellbota!,ots
t,
log t,tiee that Provision Provision for the poor would be among the
in:. a I,o#l,
Pop4`,l iiti.'tt Were to be applied. He was far from wish_
n-tha" di'l t ist, Kite
were 0P eti t, tee, a desire for agitadon to any individual ; a
they t
oiseeito, etirl)s be,
wao destitute as the Irish peasantry were admit-
d most that °. eepit' and
mould° always be ready for the commission of
;oat to ,
~e ettA o I
uot never want a leader. Having given this
iuticipanatil'ocel .-i'ii,i.t .tiOn
4, ~4 [4, ',sod hoping that effectual measures would be
gret aeon° / oeCtltiot", the Government, he should support the origi-
'ailed 3„,„ cOl!, th_e Opt ,
4 -Ravin said thus much concerning Ireland,
ear.) ts` apt C tis he 4,. g
rest ii. e g t iglu be permitted to say a few words re-
dineonutretoP f le, %,,isbar, :rglesd.
He wished for the adoption of every 1
.Reform as anxiously as any one ; he
:el t
but :
0-rooe( et/0:e; t'tifotlliu.s.,4i,troyr:tlC,:sl
relief of the middle and industrious classes
. , g, 0 144', he tb4lkl, as a means, for a revised system of taxa-
' °b".l-tes °' $l sat et; cliugbt this was a subject of such importance
princip 00, Is a. let w
s bo , 4 N well have formed one of the topics of the
ringr-- if 11 10 I, Ottpith .;I nee, el 414, roo , standing the pressure of taxation, which
vig"a; regr t,), Pl4y,m ts, g'Y felt every where, and particularly of the
deeP'Y tie , litti 4 "i th
1. s el e agents of the Tax-office bad of late dis-
[ember W sle , here s'its °ln naischievous alacrity, by which, however,
ndulge• nor,; tho sag gains b
vat, fad ti k, adorn, Y the revenue, but much ill-humour load
rteireTar the f :51
~,:trty
t'vl holi:f" against the Government. He indulged
'the
tle, i.htioe4h hadhoWever, that the same spirit in the ...gl-
ebe lets:8011°j;
but e to,,f eiel,.es.o to
sug.,iven birth to the Reform Bill, and had
geed l° sayr, ie 'ate „°1 tbn," a happy conclusion, would unite with
d "-- si' tr gdi °I ~‘ House, and enable them to cat ry every
ke of deeet‘tl All 'tyre peace;
if t"-- pt y . thes 4, so, cal Reform that would relieve the exist-
"vi Os too'l4 ltit ' Place the people in a state of comfort.
;lens° 1/ klt °44,8
sit, appolblty Y, neith , however, had not been the growth of
thos:rsorlltltioore_er could the cure of them be effected by
interferivsoo.
under 4 Veil, 11s„,of si !.. He expressed himself sorry for any
, /.4.ar.i 0,4 u, 41 5..4'4 'ls'on between the friendsof Reform and
--a.' et I,' -•eft • ‘‘, r 9 wh
tiOn i'l )
,y ialitr, 41 hal 4, 0 liad already done so much, and by
Ins_ „ es.
„, e, ,
tared(cseers , .v. sairs, . 'loped so many other important mea-
vb, bei:, ewe
4. /li, would be carried in a constitutional
stmt
ogitetse°l4()Oans,„
s-tant rSss",,,e`,,,, were 14) e t') 11,4 ''c'LL-sHon. Gentlemen on the other
--„ islit r,009:0 Who s hist: they/ that the power possessed by he Irish
'-) 'ol° I, Poss •ekl tht°hl sere termed was a ower which they
Luebe (pilesable the e '1 sat 015;6! taking advantageP of - but let those
the 5 tea,4lld4 Y the nl"rs not overlook gli 'fact-the power
use, •ropra,oseaor
,eed se - agirart e.
deep' jos, 01 roloar Ceo °I th °t'a was a power proceeding from
sci Jai,
preori thulie i?' ter tleu)an° Government itself. An Hon. and
yert Neer, IV , he se4s"lettdltle reope °Pposite had spoken in rather extra-
„......(eleaor'oo.",, s-essorrlueely eejll of t i'lg the oath taken by Roman Ca-
at re3u d, Pd 4,„ ~ to sc`Peeted 't Rouse. It was an argument that
11:rose. ill Lee j int to have heard from so learned a
.man
d, P • 0, •10' L 44 he • tklk 54 auth •
cloatl° oflv oy c litti.,- or O,rity in that House and out of it-
arY se°'eSi'°' tli lqieleat '
lesien seoen.ae°. Lcelesiastical Court ; from such a
regereat'oool,, of the tors it: ailtit'o? to hear it said that the oath taken
ttowhear%tesi. the %„„ Lein out from assuming any share.
.as
the 11.:3tie°0!
a siL4hed te-r'' "f settling by law the temporalt.ties
thin eL srol"thII esIN th .'" duet •`•"rcla •
0d rfsto
we opoi_ ie, fr and he felt the more surpris.ed
,e suPP siogd hefelt o_lth 4, u 4 th,
,)ca one of those who so long mm-
-02 °betel letr' "ties,: relief
o'frle Coronation Oath should not in-
assuill' o'4 4Ptieos the Catholicsconfessed
of the
' to learn that a gentleman who had

taken the oath of supremacy, and declared that no foreign
potentate had any spiritual jurisdiction in this country—
an assertion not literally the fact—could then come for.
ward to twit the Roman Catholic Members of that House
on the oath they bad taken, fur he must know that a
foreign Prelate bad spiritual jurisdiction in this country ;
or, if he did not know it, lie must be the most ignorant
of men. If Ministers ought to be grateful to any set of
men, they ought to be to the Irish Members, for they had
supported them in carrying their most wished-for mea-
sures. He would leave it to a Reformed Parliament to
decide whether Ministers were grateful towards Irish
Members, and whether they deserved that confidence from
the people which they required. They could expect no
confidence from the Irish people, since they seemed, by
the measures they proposed, to desire an extension of the
tithe system.
Mr. STANLEY denied that the Government had any
such intention ; the collection of tithes might be varied
and extended, but the principle which would he adopted
relative to them would be founded on a just and fait• com-
mutation.
Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL begged the Right Hon.
Gentleman's pardon for taking his words according to the
common acceptation, and wished that the expressions of
Ministers might be so regulated as to be easily understood
by common understandings. At all events, he was confi-
dent that the Right Hon. Secretary's statement with re-
spect to tithes would not meet with the approbation of the
Irish people. They could expect no confidence from the
Irish people as long as they prosecuted, through the me-
dium of their Attorney-General, such journals as the
Tipperary Free Press and the Dublin Comet, whilst
they forbore to meddle with English papers equally op-
posed to their persons and measures. But this was only
an exemplification of the difference of the application of
time law in the two countries. The Hon. M tuber con-
cluded by stating, most energetically, that the representa-
tives of Ireland would not be forced from the strong
ground upon which they stood, neither by the extempo.
raneous invectives nor the prepared harangues of those
who sat upon the Treasury Benches, and in their• imme
diate neighbourhood.
Mr. SHAW rose amidst loud cries of" Question and
Spoke." He said he was satisfied that Irish Members
were listened to by the House with the greatest courtesy,
and he admitted the justice of many of their complaints.
He considered that the speech from the throne was in
many respects satisfactory, and particularly in that part
which promised the means of securing property and life.
He was surprised, however, at one statement he bad
heard, because he considered it a most unaccountable dis-
crepancy—he meant the cause to which the anarchy that
prevailed in Ireland was attributed. Nothing could be
more diverse than the opinions of the Right Hon. Secre-
tary for Ireland and the lion. Member fur Dublin on this
head. The former attributed the disturbed state of Le-
land to the agitation of the latter, and the latter asserted
that it was owing to the misgovernment of the former.
There might be some truth in each accusation, but there
was little doubt that the principal source of Irish disturb-
ance sprung from agitation, and every body knew who was
the " head and front" of agitation. When be said agita-
tion was the principal cause, he did not wish to be under-
stood that it was the sole cause, for Ireland had been
disturbed for twenty years, though the Hon. 'Wernher
for Dublin had not professed the trade of agitator for
more than two years. He wished to use no harsh expres-
sions, but he contended that the mistaken notions of Go-
vernment were the real cause of the prevalence of democratic
feelings in Ireland, and that it was those notions which in-
vested the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin with all
but despotic and dictatorial sway. No doubt there were
disturbances in Ireland, but it was ridiculous to accuse, as
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin did, the Irish
Magistracy of being the chief causes of them. He con-
tended, that there were no other body of men similarly si-
tuated, who acted with more forbearance, and with a fairer
spirit of impartiality. The truth was, that the Hon. and
Learned 'Wernher was jealous of every species of authority
but his Own..-. 4 Hear, hear.) The great fault of the Irish
Magistracy was, that they were net content with passive
resistance, and that they were not susceptible to the influ-
ence of bribery and patronage. The only patronage now
exercised in Ireland was that in the power of the Irish
Chancellor, and that was extended to his sons and rela-
tions, who, no doubt, were worthy, by their talents and
experience, of the preference extended towards them. He
was far from accusing the Irish Chancellor of injustice ;
but he might do so with the same fairness that the Hon.
Member for Middlesex accused Baron Pennefather, assert-
ing that he should be impeached ; and that it was no
wonder that crime prevailed in Ireland whilst suth a
Judge was allowed to remain upon the bench. He knew
not the grounds upon which that eminent and impartial
individual should be set do a n as the source of so
much crime as was attributed to him by the Hon.
Member for Middlesex. Was it not monstrous that an
eminent and excellent Judge like Mr. Justice Penne•
father, whose name has al ways bee❑ beyond the
reach of calumny, should now stand impeached for all the
grievances with which Ireland has been cursed ? The
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin called upon the
Government to do justice to Ireland ; but did the Hon.
and Learned Member speak in that House as he did when
he addressed his countrymen in other places ? That Hon.
and Learned Member told his countrymen that no man
should hold property in Ireland who possessed property in
another country.—(Hear.) He would read an extract from

an Irish paper, which showed the feelings entertained by
that class in Ireland. It coramenctd by commen. ing upon
another paper which spoke of the gri. vances of Ireland,
but which (it said) omitted mentioning the real robber of
the substances of the Irish people—the absentee. It then
stated that die Marquis of Lansdowne, a good landlord and
MI excellent man (the writer believed), possessed an income
of 40,0001. a year from Irish land, all of which he spent
in England. Now, would the English Parliament consent
to lay a tax of '75 per cent. on the income of such men ?
_ _

No less would do ; and then he would only have 251. to
spend out of the country, instead of 100/.—(A laugh.)
He did not speak of this in derision. It was, in fact, a
dreadful state of things, and proved the different modes
adopted by the agitators to spread their baneful agitation.
The sentiments and intentions of the Hon. Member for

Dublin were plainly pointed out by his own words, for that
gentleman had said that " he would not be satisfied till
he had crossed the threshold of an Irish Parliament
in College-green, and till he saw justice done to Ireland."
He (Mr. Shaw) thought that he had made out to the
House that they could not satisfy that Hon. and Learned
Member but by the repeal of the Union ; but he (Mr.
Shaw) would say, that he would rather drag on his exi,t-
ence, if even in wretchedness, than, by such a measure,
lose his property, his liberty, and perhaps his life. He
agreed with the Hon. and Learned Member for the 'rower
Hamlets in the construction he put on the oaths taken by
Catholic Members of Parliament on the admission to that
House ; be thought that it was both for the honour of the

country and equitable that that oath should be abolished.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) An Hon. Member had charged
the Hon. Member for Colchester with having exaggerated
the state of Ireland. Did any one doubt that Ireland was
in a state of the wildest confusion and anarchy, and that
the relations of society were in a great measure dissolved ?
(Cheers.) He received by that day's post a letter which
described the state of the country as most fearful, and as
getting worse and worse every day. It mentioned a most
brutal case which had happened on the previous Friday, of
a poor man who was warned to give up the farm which
he possessed. The man refused, and got a party of the
constabulary to protect him. The party, however, re-
turned in larger numbers, and burned down his house ;
yet it was found itnpossible to discover who the
authors of that outrage were. The Hon. Mem-
ber then mentioned the case of an Irish clergy-
man, at present i❑ Liverpool, who was obliged to fly the
country on account of the spirit of rancour and animosity
with which the people were impressed towards him.
This clergyman was warned not to return home, for if be

were to pass one hour at home, that hour would be his
last. He could mention many instances of clergymen who-
had been obliged to forsake their homes, their families,
and their means of support, on account of this wroched
state of affairs, but who were too high-minded to' cons-
plain, and preferred hiding their sufferings from the eyes
of the world, to being held up as objects of commiseration
and pity. He would put it to their feelings of humanity,
if such a state of affairs as that should be allowed to con-
tinue?—(Cheers.) The clergy had been stated as being
the principll cause of the grievances and misfortunes of
Ireland, and that their rapacity in exacting their tithes had
been extreme. He d -nied it, and would refer to the re-

port of the Lords Commissioners, which stated that the
demands of the clergy were extremely moderate, and that
they were not rigorous in their mode of exacting them. It
was not consistent with humanity that they should be
thus maligned. It had been stated that there were ten

thousand processes out at the instance of clergymen
for their tithes, and that these processes were, in most
instances, for very small sums. Did that prove the
inability of the people to meet those small demands?

No ; but it proved their obstinacy and determination not
to pay them.—(Loud cheers.) The outrages, of which
the Hon. Member for Waterford complained, were not
partial, or confined to particular districts ; they were uni-
versal. He was aware of many persons who would be
in comfortable circumstances if the country were in a
more peaceable and settled state, who would, he believed,
he glad to exchange their means and their mansions for

the more humble but secure possessions of the peasantry

of Great Britain. He could say that for the last few
months not a post arrived but be trembled lest it would
bring the account of the murder of some friend, some rela-
tion or acquaintance, or of the destruction of their property.
It was not long since he received a letter from a friend, who
said he would be at his (Mr. Shaw's) house next day,
but by the next post ne received accounts that hisfriend was
attacked on the high road, and brutally murdered, and that
at mid-day, and in the presence of a hundred persons, yet
not one could be get to come forward to give evidence
against the murderers.—(Loud cheers.) The unfor-
tunate gentleman to whom he alluded was the Rev.
Mr. Ferguson.—(Hear, hear.) There were many other
instances which he could bring forward of persons
being murdered by parties in search of fire-arms, or who
had some real or imaginary grievance to complain of,
and took this mode of wreaking their vengeance ;
but be thought he had said enough to show that
the state of Ireland was not exaggerated.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) Now he would beg to ask what justiee
could be done to Ireland when such was the state of so.
ciety in that country ? Would it not he the best act of jus-
tice to arm the Executive with additional powers to put
down those sets of lawless ruffians who destroy the peace
of the country, assail the lives of its inhabitants, and bring
destruction on their property and possessions ? The
friends of England call loudly for justice—the subjects of
the King of England call loudly for Justice and protec-
tion, and will it be refused them ?—(Loud cheers.) lie
would now ask if the English nation was ready to do jus-
tice to his unfortunate country, and give protection to the
gentry of Ireland, which were the slender, the only thread
which bound Ireland with this country, and which was
daily in danger of being broken. They might get rid of
Ireland altogether, but Ireland would he found to be either
the principal strong hold of England, if united, er, if
separated, its greatest danger. Would they support the
gentry of that country, which were the only link which
bound them to it ? He agreed with the Member for Tarn-
worth, that the question of the repeal of the Union was
one which required inquiry ; but they should recollect that
the danger from Ireland was imminent, and required imme-
diate attention. When a house was on fire, they did not
wait to ask how the fire originated—their plain duty was
to take immediate steps to extinguish it.—(Loud and
continued cheerin!.)
Mr. WALKER said, that they heard much of the ex-
cesses committed against, and the cruelties suffered by, the
innocent in Ireland ; but they belrd little of what pro-
duced such a state of things—they heard little of what
go ided the people to madness. He considered that the
system of police was one of the great causes of the discon-
tent and outrage. That police thought nothing of shoot
ing the peoplet.like dogs, and they were never punished
for their crimes. He knew the Irish well, and he was
sure that they would never submit to such a system.
They heard little of the conduct of the Irish Conservative
landlords, and their treatment to their tenants at the last
election, but he knew of the severe treatment many of
them suffered because they exercised their constitutional
rights as given them by the Reform Bill according to their
consciences. He was astonished to bear an Hon. Member
praise the clergy for their moderation in exacting their
tithes. He knew many instances of the most unfeeling
oppression—certainly for small sums—but these small
sums were wrung from the widow and the orphan. The
Hon. Member then complained that Catholics were not
employed as stipendiary magistrates, or in the police, and
stated that circumstances c ime under his observation which
pointed out the improper line drawn between those profess..
ing the two religions. He did not object to the employ-
ment of military in Ireland. The country people liked
the army, but they detested the police, because they were
brutal in their conduct towards the people, and because
persons injured could in very few instances obtain redress.
The Hon. Member then mentioned three cases of great
oppression which came under his own observation, in all
of which murders had been committed, or at least deaths
occasioned by the police ; yet in which it defied the ag-
grieved parties to get them punished, as even when some
of the parties were found guilty, they were afterwards
pardoned by the Lord Lieutenant.
Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR said, that as one of the
representatives of the largest constituency in Ireland, he
was unwilling to let this debate close without offering a
few remarks upon it. He trusted that Parliament would
not think of arming the most unpopular Government which
ever was in Ireland with additional and unconstitutional
poweis to put down a state of society which had not been
proved to exist. They were told that there were many
cases in which tithes had not been paid; hut they were not
told that in many other cases these tithes were paid by
the sale of all the property of the p tyers. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Tamworth had said, that though lie did not coincide
in opinion with the acts of the Minister., yet he would
vote for coercive measures. On the question of the re-
peal of the Union, too, he was ready to hear arguments,
though he declared, at the same time, that he had made
up his mind on the subject. That Hon. Member asked,
was it the object of England that Ireland should be misgo.
verned—that she should havea defective policeor had Grand
Jurors? but did the Hon. Member venture to declare that
such was not the case ? The Hon. Member then detailed
at some length a case in which he had considered it neces

sary to prosecute a constable for brutal conduct in firing at
a person, but which prosecution was pronounced to be
frivolous and vexatious. The Hon. Secretary for Ireland
had stated that be would rather expose himself to be
bayonetted or pistolled, than agree to the repeal of the
Union ; but he (Mr. O'Connor) rather than see his
country oppressed, would expose himself to pistols, guns,
bayonets, blunderbusses, or fire-arms.—(Loud laughter.)
If there was to be a Union, let it be a real, sincere one, or
let it be dissolved at once. The House might proceed to
hap additional oppression on Ireland; but he would tell
the House, that it did not know how soon the application
of arbirrary measures, of the same strength, might be de-
manded for England,—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Session
was not far advanced—the ballot remained to be intro-
duced—(Hear, bear)—the assessed taxes to be repealed
—triennial Parliaments to be restored ; all these were
before the House, and it would have Ireland also before it.
—(Laughter and cheers, accompanied by loud cries of
Question.")
Captain YORKE said, that the arguments urged by the
Hon. Member who had just sat down were the precise
cause of his rising to address the House. That Hon.
Gentleman said, there were a variety of motions to be
brought forward which, alone, would occupy Parliament
for a year ; and these motions were of such a descriptio❑
that they tended to overwhelm the Constitution. At such a

moment, when a feeling was abroad likely to excite the
public mind, he thought it his duty to support the Hon.
Gentlemen opposite (Ministers), in order to strengthen
the Administration ; but he by no means pledged himself
to the approval of all contained in the address. Looking
to the foreign policy of Ministers—(Laughter, and cries
of " Question ")—he could not agree with them. As to
that part also which related to the Irish Churcis, anything
tending to separate Irish Protestant interests from English
Protestant interests should never meet with support from
him. He was sent, by a large and respectable constituency, a
free, unshackled Member to Parliament, and he would
best consult their feelings and his own when he supported
law and order, and on every occasion strengthened the
Administration when it was oppressed by Hon. Memb,
. . . .

of principles similar to those hell by the Hon. Gentleman
who had last spoken.—(Loud cries of " Question," and
" Withdraw.")
Mr. EMERSON TENNANT proceeded to address
the House amidst some confusion. It was with extreme
reluctance he rose on this occasion, but his duty as an
Irish Representative—(cries of " Question")—would not
allow him to give a silent support to the original motion.
—(Hear, hear.) A complaint had been made that Mi-

nisters did not detail the measures intended for the relief

of Ireland ; but the contrary was the fact, for the King's
speech not only contained a recommendation to reform the

abuses of the Church—to correct the vicious system of
tithes, but that these measures should be accompanied
with such others as might be deemed beneficial to Ire-
land. He denied, therefore, that the King's speech was
the meagre, barren document it was represented to be.
When Ministers, at the time they required additional
powers, announced that they were to be placed in con-
junction with salutary rneasttres, he did not think that
the former could be said to he rashly and mischievously
conceded.—(flear, hear.) The Honourable Member
for Kilkenny asserted that the Ulster Representatives
were Conservative; and prepared to pass over, on the
first opportunity, to the ranks arrayed against Minis-
ters; but this was a mistake. He (Mr. E. T.) amidst
a Northern Protestant constituency (Belfast) had avowed
his intention and the announcement was received with
applause—of aiding, with all his energies, in the thorough
reform of the abuses of the Church..—(Hear, hear.) His
iesolution, however, was to amend, not to destroy, and
that by securing two great objects—the relief of a
wretched oppressed people, and the rescue of a merito-
rious clergy from destruction and misery.—(Cries of
" Hear.") He was not Conservative : the numerous and
enlightened constituency that sent him to the House,
knew that the present anomalous condition of Ireland was
a barrier to all improvement. As to the repeal of the
Union, he could declare that the northern and eastern
parts of Ulster regarded it with the deepest detestation.
It was viewed as no more than a means of continuing agi-
tation when all others had failed, or as the instrument of

extorting new measures. The people of Ulster saw the
necessity of Reform in every branch of the State; but

1'

they did not propose as a remedy for existing evils a chi-
merical and impracticable project.—(Hear.)
The cries of " Question" now became so loud and
general that strangers were ordered to withdraw, and
the House divided on Mr. O'Connell's amendment : the
numbers being—

For the amendment 4O
Against it 42
Majority for Ministers
The announcement of the majority was received with
loud clTeri

On our re-admission to the House, we found
Mr. TENNYSON on his legs, moving a second amend-
ment. He said that the people of Ireland were looking
anxiously towards the Reformed Parliament for some
measures of relief, and he thought the House was bound
to give them some assurance that their expectations would
not be disappointed, and that a favourable disposition ex-
isted in the House towards that much oppressed people.
By adopting the amendment he was about to propose,
they would soothe the irritated feelings of the Irish na-
tion. They would not preclude themselves from the re-
ception of petitions, or keep open the question of repeal ;
whilst, at the same time, they assured his Majesty that
they would protect the existing Union against all violent
attempts at dissolution.—(Hear.) He then moved, as an
amendment, " That all the words in that clause of the
address, relating to the grant of additional powers in
Ireland, should be left out after the word ' precaution ;'
and that the following words be substituted t---As
may be found necessary; but if, under the circumstances
which may he disclosed to us, we should be induced to in-
trust his Majesty with additional powers, we shall feel it
our duty to accompany that acquiescence by a close and
diligent investigation into the causes of discontent in Ire-
land, with a view to the application of prompt and ef-
fectual remedies ; and that, although it is our duty to
receive the petitions of the people of Ireland, with regard
to the Legislative Union between the two countries, and to
leave ourselves free to consider that subject, yet we are ready
to support his Majesty in maintaining that Union against
all lawless attempts to defeat it, or to invade the peace,
security, and welfare of his Mijesty's dominions.' $
Mr. HUME rose to second the motion. He was anxious
that the first act of the Reformed Parliament towards Ire-
land should be of a sootheing character. Now the address
was a denunciation against the whole people of Ireland.—
(6' No, no," and " Hear, hear.") Every man who wished
to soothe Ireland and prevent the bitter disappointment
which must otherwise inevitably ensue, would cordially
support this amendment.—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said there was one very material
objection which he had to the amendment, that by the
address, as originally proposed, the House declared its
opinion on the question of repealing the Legislative Union,
whereas the amendment left it altogether open.—(Hear,
hear.) He could not agree with the Hon. Member for
Middlesex, that those who did not vote for the amend-
tnent would be wanting in sympathy towards Ireland.
He thought the House might, at least, put confidence in
the Ministers till they heard what were their plans of
relief for that country, and then, if they did not think
then, sufficient, it was quite time for them to come
forward and propose such measures as should seem to them
most fitting. He felt it his duty to oppose the adoption
of this amendment.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when there
appeared__
For the amendment 6O
Against it 393
Majority for Ministers --333
The motion for the address was then agreed to, and the
House adjourned till Monday.