The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-21 00:00:00

• dente of the dead and the living. My Noble Friend says
that English Protestants are faithful and sincere, and he
.ays he depends upon the warm attachment of the vast ma-
jority of the people of this country to the Established
Church of England. He believes that attachment to be
from the heart—that there may be a movement on the sur-
face, but that there is a deep strong under-current of affec-
tion ever flowing beneath. He believes that their religion
is written upon their hearts' core. But, if that be so, then
there is no need or occwion in England far this Bill—
(Hear, hear) - and nothing in Ireland to call for or justify
it.— (Hear, hear.) I feel such confidence in the wisdom of
Parliament, that I hope confidently that this Bill will never
pass into a law. The Right Hon. Baronet conclud d his
speech amidst loud and prolonged cheers from all sides of
the House.

Lord J. RUSSELL was received on his rising with a re•
newel of the cheering, and with ironical cheers from the Irish
Members, which prevented his proceeding to address the
House immediately. He said,-I hope the House will in-
dulge me while I make some observations in defence of the
present Bill-(Oh, oh! and cheers)-and in defence of the
general principle which is contained in this Bill. However
this Bill may be described as insignificant, or however its
provisions may be described as inefficacious, the House will
not have failed to observe that on one side and on the other
there has been the greatest zeal and the greatest persever-
ance shown in commending or in blaming this Bill as fit or
as unfit to be adopted. The House cannot but observe that
whatever the provisions of the Bill may be, when you ex-
amine into details, there is some great principle involved,
some question upon which it behove,. the Commons of Eng-
land deliberately to pronounce. Sir, that question is in my
view not less than this : -For many years since the restora-
Von of Louis XVIII. the Court of Rome has endeavoured to
revive pretensions, to attempt domination, to restore supre-
macy, which many thought had been for ever abandoned.-
(Cheers.) And indeed for some time those efforts were at-
tended with so little success that they might have
been safely disregarded, if not treated with con-
tempt.-(Loud cheers.) But of late years, and more
especially since the democratic revolution which took place
in the beginning of the year 1849, men seeking for some
safety, for some plank by which they might escape in the
shipwreck, have resorted to the authority, the influence. the
power, and the name of the Church of Rome ; and the clergy,
of that church have seen in that circumstance an opporta-
nity of reviving powers which, if they are successfully
claimed, must be fatal to the liberty of every country in
Europe.-(Loud cheers.) ;Look at the change that has taken
place within the last two years. Look at the change, ad-
verted to by the Honourable and Learned Member for Ox-
ford (Mr. P. Wood), and by my Noble Friend at
the head of foreign affairs, that has taken place
in Austria. You will see there a specimen and instance of
that which we allege, and of the abandonment of the se-
curities which had been wisely formed-of an arrogation of
authority in the State which the State claimed to itself as
indefeasible, You will see a surrender to the Church of
Rome of that which had been carefully and pertinaciously
withheld frem her. Look to another instance, of whist
we had a valuable testimony the other night of one who
bears a celebrated name, and who in that effect gave a proof
of talent, and showed that he (Sir R. Peel) could relate to
the House in the most vivid and expressive manner the ex- '
perience he had himself obtained in another land.-(Cheers.)
Look to those instances, and I think you will not fail to be '
convinced that Europe and the friends of liberty, whether in
Germany or Italy or in any other parts of Europe, must now
be looking to you • and if after all the Protestant feeling
which had been exhibited-if after the sense of indignation
which had been expressed, and when a Bill has been brought
before the Hcuse by Government, professing to contain a re-
sistance to aggression-professing to maintain the assertion
of the supremacy of the Crown-the Bill should be at *nee
rejected on the second reading, without any clear and definite
substitute, but merely some hints of resolutions to
be passed hereafter-merely some vague suggestions
of admiration of the feeling which had been exhibited and
opposed to aggression-I think the friends of liberty through-
out Europe will conclude that in addition to all other
conquests, that in addition to all other triumphs, the Court
of Rome has obtained this great conquest, has obtained this
most splendid triumph-the conquest and triumph over the
minds of the House of Commons of England.-(Lend cheers.)
The Right Hon. Baronet who spoke last, referring to mare
celebrated persons who had been advocates of the Roman
Catholic claims, quoted as first and most memorable of them
all the name of Grattan. I will refer also to the name of
Grattan, because like him (Sir J. Graham) I look :to Grat-
tan as a man who had studied this question more deeply,
and as one who was not only most impressive in urging the
claims of our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects to civil equa-
lity and to seats in Parliament, but one who had studied the
genius of Rome, and had studied the nature of both Ireland
and England. Now, what was Mr. Grattan's prediction on
this question? In 1817 he said -
" I beg to observe that there is now every reason to hope,
and there is no reason to doubt, but that securities may be
had. and such securities as the House will perhaps think
desirable. There may be domestic nomination, there may
be a veto, there may be both The question is,
whether any securities whatever will be received. Let me
tell you why. There is a communication between the
Pope and the Catholic clergy which must end either in an
incorporation with the see of Rome, or a connexion with the
Government of England ; and if the latter be refused it will
be dangerous to the safety of England. You will have the
Catholic clergy incorporated with the see of Rome, and the
Catholic laity discorporated from the people of England."
Now, be it observed that Mr. Grattan, supported as he was
on that occasion by the men of all parties of eminence in
this House-by Sir Samuel Romilly and Mr. Ponsonby, by
Mr. Brougham, by Lord Althorp, Lord Castlereagh, and
Mr. Canning, and by many others who sage afterwards to
great distinction, said, " You will have one of these two
things ; -you will either secure the domestic nomination of
bishops and a veto in the han Is of the Crown, or, failing
that, you will see the whole Catholic clergy incorporated
with the See of Rome, and the Catholic laity discorpo-
rated from the people of England." Sir, recent events
have shown that there was too much truth in Mr. Grat-
tan's prediction. You have neither the domestic nomina-
tion of bishops, nor have you the veto in the hands of
the Crown. These were the securities proposed in 1817 ;
they were not proposed in 1829; and you have that now
which did riot exist in former times • instead of two vary
distinct bodies-n-mely, Roman Catholics who were Roman
Catholics in religion, but who had no veneration for the Pope
as a temporal power, you have seen by the declarations of
the Duke of Norfolk, Lord Beaumont, and Lord Camoys,
that these men are few indeed, who in these days will sepa-
rate themselves from any pretensions of the Church of Rome
-(Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers)-and who will not affect
those pretensions. whatever they may be.- (Hear.) Now let
me again repeat to the House that this is the prediction of
Mr. Grattan, the very man to whom my Right Hon. Friend
referred, and rightly, as the greatest authority who could be
quoted on this occasion. Now, if that be true which he pre-
dicted-that you have the Catholic clergy incorporated with
the See of Rome, and that the Catholic laity are in a great
degree discorporated from the t eople of England, I say it be-
hoves us to see what is the danger that we are now incurring,
and whether we can have any means of meeting that danger.
I cannot but say I have been greatly struck by the theories
that have been propounded to the House on the subject of
religious liberty.-(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member
for Plymouth, in his most able speech, told us that if you had
rligious freedom you must allow to those who claim that
heed= that which belonged to their own religion-to their
own church ; that if they had an ecclesiastical organization
you must permit that ecclesiast cal organization to be com-
pleted, and therefore you must allow, uncontradicted, any.
thing which belonged to the faith which those persons main-
tained. Now, how far does this pretension go ?- (Ilear.)
Because the real question is-which the Hon. and Learned
Member did not touch upon-who is to decide what is eccle-
siastical-what is spiritual in these natters?-(Hear.) Are
Roman Catholics, on the ground that it belongs to their eccle-
siastical arrangements, to make any assumption they please
- to claim any sway over this realm of England-(Hear)-
to claim any supremacy over the Queen of England-(Hear,
hear)-aua are we to be satisfied by their saying, England-(
This is
ecclesiastical - this belongs to our religicc ?" - (Hear,
hear.) Would the Hun. and Learned Gentleman be satis-
fied with any assertion they might make in this respect
with regard to spiritual and temporal matters? My
Right Hon. Friend seemed disposed to say that religion
is a matter connected with spiritual concerns, and, there-
fore, it is a spiritual matter in which the State cannot in-
terfere with the proceedings of the Catholic clergy. Now
suppose they should declare that in Ireland the National
Board of Education is dangerous to their faith, and that any
pars n belonging either to the clergy or the 14y who as-
sisted in carrying that system into effect should be excom-
municated and deprived of the rites of religion, that being a
matter entirely spiritual-or suppose they go a step
further, and say with regard to the police and military
that a person cannot remain in the police or military under
a Sovereign wlo countenances and sanctions such measures?
- (Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers.) Hon. Members say
" Oh !" and I hear one say that that should not be al-
lowel ; but that is exactly what I expected, because it
shows that you cannot rest satisfied with the assertion of the
Roman Catholic clergy that such a matter is spiritual or
ecclesiastical, but that you must judge for yourselves
whether it is so or not, and decide according to your judg-
ment- ( Llear, hear)-and here another Hon. Member says
that cannot be done. Now, having read somewhat of his-
tory - not only of that history to which Hon. Gentlemen
thought it wrong to refer-that tf the times of the disputes
between Catholics and Protestants-but the history of most
recent times-I must say that trusting to the moderation of
the See of Rome as to the distinction between temporal and
spiritual is one of the worst securities you can have. It was
only yesterday I was looking, cursorily indeed, at the cor-
respondence, about the year 1816 or 1817, between the Secre-
tary of State of the Pope and the King of Naples, and the
King of Naples said, " I may be quite wrong in refusing you
tribute-in refusing you certain lands which you claim, but
in menacing me with
certainly you can hardly be justified .
- •
syuocuh nwar esgtahredotpoi
opinion
tem-
poral
tahno.d,
matter,
towhat
itas
spiritual censures, became I opposedßut
poral matter."-(Hear, hear.)
that a
the Pope, that he thought . temporal matter was a
if
depend
we were entirely t
trust to the Papa
is extended
matter of spirituallacoutgbnairlantycien,
shall hear the spiritual jurisdiction far beyond
we (Hear, bear.)
Hon. Member said, and my Right Hon. Friend who
And one .
that of which we have any conception now.-(Hear,
the language of the Pobeen lately done, that
spoke last has said, among the rest, in referring
pe and of the
pastoral is arrogant in the extreme, and needlessly offensive
to the people of England.-(Hear.) That ie an admission
to a certain extent; but the question is, whether it is an
admission to the extent which is really requited by
the nation.-(Hear, hear.) I must beg the attention of my
Right Hon. Friend, who, although no doubt he has studied
this question a good deal, seems, I think, to have mistaken
some of the most material points of it -(Hear)-I must call
his attention to what really is tho character of this resceipt of
the Pope ; and before I do so I must refer to a writing of Dr.
Wiseman, in the Dublin Review, which I found referred to
by Mr. Palmer, in his book on the Church. lie says-
" The apostolic see, it is said, charges those who call them-
selves the archbishops and bishops of the Church established
in England and Ireland with being intruders by favour of the
civil power into the sees of those realms ; inasmuch as they
ani their predecessors took posses ion thereof in spite and
to the detriment of the patriarchal rights of that see, which,
from the canons and by immemorial usage, had been ex-
ercised in the nomination or approbation of all metropolitans
and bishops. Up to the time of Henry VIII. this right was
perfectly acquiesced in, when by his statute 25 Henry VIII.
c. 2 letters missive to theo, the nomination was reserved by .
King, all the au hority of the apostolic !ee being set aside
such subversion of the rights long holdea
and admitted of this apostolic see, and such assumption of a
power never admitted in any p<rt of the Church, were clear in-
fringements of the canons, an act of usur-
pation and intrusion which is null and void in all its con-
sequences."
is an assertion to this extent. ass
That a.ot noticing
at present the historical fallacies contained in the statement,
this is an assertion that that Act of Parliament of Henry
VIII. is null and void in all its consequences; that the
Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the Bishops of London
and Winchester, andtae other bishops of this realm, no longer
exist, the appointments thereto being void. Upon this fol-
lows this rescript of the Pope, in which, after naming all
these new archbishops, it is declared at the end-
" And we decree that these our letters apostolical shall
never at any time be objected against or impugned on pre.