The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-12 00:00:00

Irish landlord collected his rent with facility, he also would be
able to collect it with facility when there was added to it the,
in each instance, trifling amount that would be chargeable to
hiin on account of what 'he as landlord may have paid for tithe ;
and their Lordships, if they went into ommittee, would see
that the details of the Bill furnished the landlord with every
help:to enforce his claim. For these reasons he was decidedly
of opinion that this measure would be of great benefit to the
llrish Church, and that the Irish clergy would do unwisely for
aemselves not merely to reject, but to hesitate for an instant
in accepting this Bill. But then he might be told that it was
not so much the measure itself, be it ever so good, ever so safe
for the State, ever so wholesome for the Church, ever so ne-
picessary f6r the peace of Ireland and the prosperity of the em-
re at large—all these considerations were beside the ques-
tion; for they only regarded the merits of the measure—they
only regarded the thing about which they were discussing—they
only regarded the interest of the country—they only regarded
the duty of the Government--their Lordships' duty—the duty of the House of Commons • and are we, said Noble Lords, to
he set aside that they might consider how the measure was
proposed. " If it had been proposed by his Majesty's Ministers,"
said Noble Lords overflowing with candour, " we should have
agreed to it at once ;" or, saie_ the Noble Baron, whom he
(Lord Brougham) was sorry not to see in his place (Lord
Ellenborough) if the Government would only bring in the
Measure it at first so wisely, so vigorously, so judiciously pro-
Poneded, he would withdraw his opposition, and would not
propose the alteration of a word or of a syllable. • Oh ! that
he were often to be had in such a humour ! What measures
of reform should he not look forward to passing triumphantly
through that House ? Their Lordships should have enough
the
them Baron next session, if this happy frame of mind of
tine Noble would continue without souring through the
,eag vacation. He would pledge himself that no human being
nesides the King's Ministers, except those whose assistance
two"n dulbe necessary in perfecting their details, should have
ledge of the measures they would bring forward for the
lifpod of the country. The Noble Baron should have Ministe-
al measures the le Ministerial easures, and ng
but Ministerial measures —(Laughter)— mif he would butnothi con-
113nti
e to say that he Would be perfectly satisfied with them.
di " he feared that the Noble Baron's frame of mind would be
fferent in January or February, next (before which, with all
I'esPeet for their Lordships, he had not the slightest desire to
thsee them) from what it now was. —( Cheers and laughter.) Well,
em if such were the professions of Noble Lords, what made
, and especially the Noble Earl who spoke lest, so indig-
?Ant at the plan as it now stood ? He would not do anything so
Itllvitli°lls as to speculate-upon what would have been the sen-
...niss,s
'itt of the Noble Earl and the Noble Baron had the Bill
been brought up to them in the shape in which it was intro-
'need into the House of Commons (hear, hear); but he could
;say help suspecting that there would have been something tod
laY against it, that a few syllables and even a few words would
rein been altered. He could not believe that the second
gar would have gone off quite so smoothly and placidly in
tresent tense as it did in the preterpluperfect.—( Laugh.ter.)
could a man did they could judge of; but what a man might,
13, should, or would have done they could not judge of,
trot they could not even say what it would have been, no,
osotriekLeinanwl hel:nt, a man himself told them, for he could not him
that •snelv• He therefore had a strong suspicion on his mind
(TY' no change had been made in the Bill in the other House
they should have had some words on the second
te,arsdhlg, a few more in Committee, and more upon the bring-
-6 1113 of the report—if, indeed, it would ever have been read
waas:cond time, for as far as reason and principle went, there
bi hnto argument that had been urged against the Bill to-
ka! which would not have been just as applicable to the Bill
1 t;deriginally introduced.—( Hear.) Was not the matter then
r be ~Iled to this, that an important legislative enactment was. to
1, ration with open arms or repudiated with disgust, indig-
siinlen, and almost fury, not upon its own merits, but the me-
ofs, real or supposed, of an individual who, in the other House
Parr
alters .lainent, had an hand in introducing one or two. materialthis
inMeeaZtrientl?s, and, as he maintained, amendments into
He had heard somewhat to-night about degraded
shat of debased Ministers, of their lowness in public ctima-
Wt,,lt, and the expediency of their being humble in their own
is:---Particularly had he heard this from the Noble Earl who
•I;"4,liist sat down • but he did not think there was a more un-
./iiinrt!lF course of Proceeding, a more degraded state, a more
oflillliating posture, either for a man, a Minister, or a Member
3,sas arliament, titan that there should exist one individual who
him sto master of your motions as to make it sufficient. for
Prose adopt a plan for you to approve it ;. for him to
him
for ef„ any proposition to make you against it; for .
ter eisit forward an amendment to induce you to reject it ;
not ha to say, Give me this, to make you say, You shalll
land ave it ; for him to beg a boon for the clergy of re-
atith'h tin make you deny it ; for him to entreat of
itou to
the „old mischief from the sister country—to save from
ear told mischief from the sister country._to save it from
tare 1010flts of civil war, to make you exclaim, " What
,:h1 for civil war—what care I for gratifying the clergy
all all that care I about purchasing peace—what care
Mr. n4t----ain I to degrade myself by taking a hmt. from
tat, ."'Connell—shaehe dictate to me?" But he did dic-
neht,3,thetn, and the only difference between the oppo-
lane' ni this bill and his Majesty's Ministers was, that. the
Wlasstir came forward honestly and fairly, in a manly and direct
ilier to yield to what he proposed; whilst the former, their
sesoo,aPparently predominant, like a spoiled child, or boar ing-
lists: miss, who did this thing, or that thing, not because she sires". but because her maid, her comrade, or her mistress de-
(tO her to do to the contrary.—( Cheers and laughter.) He
ha;
,Lord Chancellor) had uniformly been one of those who
tho4clared his opinion against that individual whenever he
on 4, t his conduct called for censure at his hands. .No man
had uTr side of the House—perhaps no man in Parliament.—
oshiastd more of censur, less of management in the expression
Whe,„°Pinions with respect to that Hon. and Learned Person
Felt '.4 4e had deemed it his duty, and a most painful one he had
upon It
to be whenever he had had to discharge it, to animadvert
„11 Opinion ; but because he disapproved of his conduct--
coad'se he greatly blamed and deeply lamented parts of his
Pl,silitet as mischievous to Ireland, and wholly unworthy of his
hstie alentS and abilities, to which he was always
made
to do
aant ei he had entered into no bond—had no.cove-
Ae st%lth himself to allow Mr. O'Connell to govern him by
Isha; I'l'e of contraries-4 Cheers and laughter)—to adopt
titahrer he rejected, or reject whatever he approved of,t
his, Y because those several censures would be opposed
do
of tic He held it to be his duty to consult for the goo
'khiehlis, realm, to advise his Sovereign in those things
not less to the interests of the Crown and people, and.
teae s than anything else to consider what belonged to his
oir ur,,,and the peace of his dominions ; and if he (Lord
kr°. iVaril) knew and felt that a proposition which came from
boon , Connell was an improvement on a measure he had
it wait
for he was neither so vain as to reject it because
easse .e°t his own plan, nor idiot so flagrant as to refuse it be-
lie , 1t Proceeded from one in whose conduct in all particulars
aot-i(3)ald not agree. Nay, he would go further, and he should
ha • 0 accused of truckling' to any man, when he said that,
Warring th
'lot take e Possibility of misconception, which, however could
should ,e_ Place were nothing but the truth spoken (and here he
Rain, under
the opportunity of saying that interference, bar-
thlsee.ll Zire.rsflding, agreement, there was none whatever be-
icarrin, h " Uonnell and any part of
.the Government)—
:d, he e said, the possibility of a misconception. of. thatt
4 att,e lhould think that so far from its being au objection o
'tote Ninument of which he approved on its merits that it came
llese ' P. O'Connell and his party, it would, looking to the
for e of Ire'
the and and the greater chance of tranquillity there.
114 aisse
_rext six months, be an additional reason for his opening
dioat.;"s to receive that amendment.—( Hear.) But extraor-
alkl 1: as had been the manner altogether in which that Hon.
Rath tiearn.ed Gentleman's name had been alluded to, there
I.t that°t•hing which astonished him more than to hear it
sus time op
Verlllto_, 1 day made a matter of charge. against the late
sea was it
that Mr. O'Connell had received a silk gown.
honeur as it
,the rule of the profession to which he had the
iteble betong, and from which the title borne by the
a lostsearti (Mansfield) who had brought the charge, derived_
ill. e
the rank
have its honourable distinctions
.made mattert f
(p, 4, affic ? When a gentleman attained the s and-
(2, the eminence that had been reached by Mr.
ho 4411
tour when he received his patent of precedence, that
O's, be .
'clati Ileame right. It was not the bare right of Il.r.
-Nd, , but the right of him whose business was im-
etcba cif the
si strass„, courts of justice whose proceedings. were
'4ti,,,rice upon',i by its refusal. He spoke with some expe-
ehe d this subject, for he had in his own person ex-
Der. 06 the inconveniences which it was wished to make
v litieal ()Innen suffer from political feeling. But it was not
oireleosl the "ling in the case of his Noble and Learned
a.ltlvatialt jt Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench, whose
(If ell au was a proud thing for him to see, for it was as
his eto his own merits as to the love and. veneration.
said, counts
sal. in the .37 as well as of his profession—it was not, he
oil,tiem fe
„instances of his Noble Friend and himself, mere
: foul arng, but some miserable wretched intrigue, some
sttald riot slander of some contemptible miscreant whom he
toa ,had ssilasnle----whom pure accident, without the slight-
duty -.4! Sal ' °I merit, had given an influence which his per-
-1(,: on his arising'from the mere discharge of a professional
`t'l) II 13 MO ever tra,elf, rd Brougham's) part, induced him to use, to
Ins 4fisr, • and his Noble Friend out of that rank which
rsall\ 1-,,, ord )13nr the,profession_said they
.had. a right to. It was
asci f, rd
more-nu.gnams) thorough conviction, however, that no
t irkso eery,"'earned s, . roe under the circumstance than his Noble
the against criend then at the head of the Court of Chan
NI slighte whom he had not in that Court ever whispered
-
tee or elev:L blame.
The consequence, however, was,.t at
q. Ilse they Barristers his • uit lost all their business
INw Oil ewe
It gAI ere senior to him and he could not lead them.
Was „ r. ~, ,
tli mo more Connell, therefore his patent of precedence
tolZit• He than justice to him, to' his profession, and to his
noesskreeque 'would now beg to say a few words upon the
to eth t of rejecting this Bill. He could not quite
1 t44te arta uthe nolleetion of tithes would be altogether so des-
ItifAtejh. hinednertotkinig, as his Noble Friend th.e Secretary. of
ote t olill wer, "to Department appeared to think it would be
he ,r o..eolie__ e thrown out. 'I hat the clergy would be ever
out i 4 ul the whole was impossible, and even any thing
sort of tlte Per cent. now offered them would be quite
sort
little question But he nevertheless had hopes that
all _ ies in might be collected by the governing
to th4ttelaptsm Ireland exerting themselves to put down
kr e law, ' to violence alr outrages, all resistance,
Illhear:Bl:tt'3l,ldss'ibility'
~ j,,„ Rut still
of when they had cases like that of which
Zdat.e as a so IS'ern, they could not but feel apprehensive that
tithe not being collected. The letter
t't reoli: th* BivikoiPndbyprtehveaileeldergaylsoofin
but
he
aOtrieett'he. chiefly interested. No dolpru
rtes,saa; Ikho wg °I Bishop
Ireland at
1 n ° roec
ofmr:eovonetgds
jti,tie , till lllad e silo In' of a different d .
the ete dr shout lee to k force had been adverte to ,
11 cies. aw th now what representations had been
ad lea' ern forth.
be the opponents He should like to know, also, what
p' iu.nt of telling each of them that they lest onpos,
.ents of this bill in Ireland would say,' if he
Q' of
~ arhars.ss, -
• the law met next year, to the mercy or the
to collect the tithes as they could. The ,

'Government, he would tell them, would pledge itself to pre-
vent outrage, to maintain the law ; but there were things which
the Government could not do, and which the law would not
authorise. The clergy could seize cattle in a field, but they
could not break the lock or bar of a cabin to get at them. The
clergy might seize chairs and tables, but the Government could
not ensure purchasers—(Hear)—chairs and tables unsold and
tithes unpaid would not enable the clergy to pay the 160,0001.
which was due from them to the Government on the Ist
of November next.--(Cries of " hear, hear.") And he
would have clergymen wh ) had estates bear in mind
that the Government had a general security on all this pro-
perty for the repayment of the loan of last year. Nor would
it be in the power of the Government to remit payment ; for
the law compelled them to enforce it. Perhaps their Lord-
ships expected that the Commons would pass a Bill to undo
the mischief which their Lordships' rejection of this measure
might occasion ; but what reason had they to expect that the
Commons would be so meek—he would not say so forgiving,
for no harm would be done to them—but so forgetful of whose
had been the fault, as to say, " Oh, never mind, let us give
another million or two of the people's money to repair the evil
done by the Lords ?" He was so far from being sure that this
would be said, that he rather thought they should get abuse
without money.—( Cheers and laughter.) It was very easy,
no doubt, for Noble Lords, who were not to suffer by the re-
jection of this Bill, to talk bravely of doing their duty ; but at
whose expense were they brave ? At the expense of the poor
Protestant Clergy of Ireland. They might vote by proxy,
but they had no right to be bold by proxy, and yet Noble
Lords now proposed to be bold in the person of the Irish Cler-
gyman.—( Cheers and laughter.) They were firm, resolute,
and determined ; but another was to undergo the risk. They ran
all hazards in the world ; they brilliantly and bravely proved
their courage in the person of the Irish parson.—(Renewed
cheers.) Never mind that the Irish clergy starve, since all
that lay upon them was the charge of having been mistaken in
their calculations. A Noble Earl had spoken of what he de-
scribed to be the overwhelming influence of the Dissenters at
the present period. Now he (the Lord Chancellor) allowed.
that the influence of the Dissenters had increased since the Re-
form Bill ; for the Dissenters had never been owners of bo-
roughs, and therefore by a comparison with those who had been
so their influence was increased ; nor had the Dissenters
till the passing of the Reform Bill been extensively repre-
sented in towns ; but to say that the influence of the Dis-
senters preponderated, or that it at all approached to a
balance in the House of Commons, with the influence of
the Established Church was a most untenable proposition.
The Noble Earl :had- also talked of the great unpopularity
and odium, and want of repute of his Majesty's Ministers;
and it was curious that the Noble Earl's illustration of the
alleged fact was, that even the friends of his Majesty's Mi,
nisters were displeased with them. Now, the cause of
this complaint, or this animosity, if the Noble Earl sup-
posed it to be so, of the friends of his Majesty's Ministers
was, not that they went too far, but that they did not go
far enough. " You have given us only one reform," they
exclaimed, " and we want twenty." Then the illustration
of the Noble Earl was followed up by what he termed the
" withering" fact of his Majesty's Ministers having got the
approbation of Mr. O'Connell. Now he (the Lord Chancel-
lor) would take it for granted that his Majesty's Ministers
were as unpopular as that Noble Earl thought, or wished them
to be. He would take it for granted that they were unpopu-
lar with the reformers, that they were unpopular with the
conservatives--that they were unpopular with the ultra-demo-
crats—that they were unpopular with the ultra-aristocrat:--
that they were unpopular with men of all parties and persua-
sions, in and out of Parliament. Taking all this for granted,
then he (the Lord Chancellor) would say, that there must be
a great fund of floating popularity some where—( A laugh)—
a popularity belonging to some statesmen yet unknown, and
yet unborn.—(A laugh.) His Majesty's Ministers had no
popularity; Mr. O'Connell had no popularity (except in Ire-
land); had the Noble Lords who sat on the benches on his
left ?—( A laugh.) Who, and when was the man to arise,
who was to enjoy all this stock of unclaimed popularity ; who
was to be the gaze and admiration of the whole country ? For
himself he looked not to popularity ; he looked only to mea-
sures. On those measures he must prepare to stand or fall
with his colleagues. He would continue to serve his King
while his Majesty was pleased to repose confidence in him ;
he would continue to serve his country till he had lost the con-
fidence of that country. While, however, the measures which
he proposed or supported proceeded from an honest anxiety for
the public good, he should never despair of a favourable judg-
ment from his countrymen.
The Duke of WELLINGTON entirely concurred with
the Noble and Learned Lord, that this was one of the mast
important measures that had ever been brought under the con-
sideration of Parliament, and that it behoved their Lordships
to consider it with the utmost attention ; and more especially
with reference to its probable effect on the Church of Ireland.
The Noble and Learned Lord approved of the measure en-
tirely as it at present stood. To him (the Duke of Welling-
ton) it was surprising, such being the case, that the Noble
and Learned Lord could have approved of the measure as it
was originally introduced. For nothing could be more evi-
dent than that the Noble and Learned Lord and his colleagues
had brought forward in the first instance a measure entirely
distinct in principle, entirely distinct in practice, entirely dis-
tinct in all its bearings and relations, from the measure which
was now under their Lordships' consideration. If he could
show that the measure now before their Lordships was
completely distinct and different from the measure which
the Noble and Learned Lord and his colleagues had in-
troduced at art early period of the session, he should con-
sider that he had established a claim on the Noble and
Learned Lord to throw out the present measure, and to
re-propose its predecessor. It was certainly an additional
cause of regret at the secession of certain Members from his
Majesty's Government, that that secession should be imme-
diately followed by the extensive and injurious alterations
which had been made in the Irish Tithe Bill. The first point
in the Bill under consideration, of which he strongly disap-
proved, was that it placed the parochial clergy of the Church
of England in Ireland in a position of stipendiary dependence
on his Majesty's Government.--( Hear, hear.) Nothing could
be more evident. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests
were, under the direction of the Ecclesiastical Commission, to
pay those clergymen their incomes, and the deficiencies were
to be made good out of the Consolidated Fund. Surely this
was to render the clergy stipendiary dependents on his Ma-
jesty's Government. The Noble and Learned Lord, however,
told their Lordships that the clergy of Ireland could not lay
their hands on their property. No, certainly, unless his Ma-
jesty's Government preserved peace in Ireland.--( Hear.) If
his Majesty's Government preserved peace in Ireland, the
clergy would be able to lay their hands on their property.
The disturbances in Ireland were pleaded as the justification
for the present measure. Now, in his opinion, the distur-
bances in Ireland depended entirely on his Majesty's Govern-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) No man could approve of the mea-
sures which his Majesty's Government had adopted towards
Ireland. If they had acted in the first instance with energy—
if they had carried into execution the Proclamation Act as
they ought—if they had not given a patent of precedence to a
gentleman who had been coavicted of a misdemeanour—if
they had not rewarded a gentleman who had flown in the face
of his Majesty, and. had been convicted of a misdemeanour,
Ireland would not be in the state in which it was at the present
moment.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He would now institute a
short comparison between the measures which had been intro-
duced by his Majesty's Government into the other House of
Parliament at the commencement of the Session, and the mea-
sure which was now submitted to their Lordship's considera-
tion. The principles of the measure introduced by his Ma-
jesty's Government at the commencement of the Session, were
first to give a value to tithe property by vindicating the law,
and then by degrees to convert that property into a rent charge,
with a view to its final redemption, By that measure the clergy
were to be stipendiaries only for a certain limited period, until
tithe should be converted into land. Such was the measure
originally proposed ; what was the measure now submitted
to their Lordship's consideration ? Not a word was to be
found in it about the vindication of the law ; that was en-
tirely laid aside. In order to tranquillize the peasantry of
Ireland, who had been in a state of disturbance for three
years, a pretence was to be made of abandoning two-fifths
of the tithe, and the burden of payment was to be enforced on
the landowners, who were to have forty per cent. for taking it;
and the peasantry would eventually derive no benefit whatever
from the arrangement. The Noble Duke here entered into a
history of the divisions in the House of Commons on the Bill
as it originally stood ; maintaining, that if his Majesty's Go-
vernment had pleased, they might have carried the original
Bill triumphantly through that House ; and that it, in fact,
was the minority that sanctioned the measure now under their
Lordships' consideration. Who that knew the circumstances
of the case could for a moment believe that the money to be
advanced by the Consolidated Fund would ever be paid back
by the Ecclesiastical Fund in Ireland ? The thing was abso-
lutely, impossible. That Fund which was derived from two
sources, could never meet the charge which the present
measure imposed upon it. It was undoubtedly true that the
Clergy of Ireland, in the existing circumstances of Ireland,
would run a great risk of not receiving their due : but he
must say, that, in his opinion, they would, except in some par-
ticular cases, run as great a risk under the proposed Bill.
There was another part of the proposed Bill in which it dif-
fered most disadvantageously from the bill introduced at the
commencement of the session. By the Bill which had been
introduced last year by his Right Hon. Friend, the composi-
tion for tithes in Ireland had been settled. There were clauses
in the present Bill, however, which upset every arrangement
of that kind, and that on most futile grounds, and in a way
only calculated to excite irritation. Upon the whole, the Bill
was one to which he felt it to be utterly impossible to give his
support.
The Earl of RIPON hoped their Lordships would pardon
him if he addressed them shortly on this subject. He was not
sure that what he was about to say would be satisfactory to
their Lordships. He did not feel it satisfactory to himself, and
considerations of duty alone induced him to say it. He had
heard with very great Surprise that part of the speech of his
Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, in which his
Noble and Learned Friend had endeavoured to make out that
the Bill under their Lordships' consideration was in principle
the same as the Bill to the introduction of which he (Lord
Not only were
panr toyt
tahbeo
suatmsei x
nm opnrtihnsc
)
principle, but they rested
thep wno measureswas a
on principles almost diametrically opposite. There was no-
thing in common between the two measures except their
object; for while he claimed for himself, with reference to
the measure to which he was a party, the object of paci-
fying Ireland, he was far from imputing any other object
to those who were the authors of the Bill before them. It
was nothing to him whether the alterations were proposed
by a single individual or whether they were adopted on
the recommendation of the great body of landlords in
Ireland. But he deeply regretted that those alterations
had been introduced. Cases of difficulty were certainly cases
for compromise. The Bill to which he was a party required

House might, at a future period, provide a remedy.—
( Hear.) For these reasons he should be sorry if the House
would not agree to this and the other amendments, and thus
retard the passing of this Bill.
,Sincerely looking at this Bill
as it now stood, he would recommend to the House to agree
with the Bill, and he would conclude by moving that these
amendments be read a second time.
Upon the question being put,
Mr. H. HUGHES rose to move that the amendments be
read a second time this day six months. The number of
petitions that had been presented against this Bill ought to
induce the House to reject it. The Hon. Member referred
to the opinions of his constituents, who were almost unani-
mously opposed to this' Bill. He was sure—
The SPEAKER rose to order. The Hon. Member must,
he was sure, perceive that he was not speaking to the ques-
tion before the House.—( Hear.)
Mr. H. HUGHES thought be had a right to propose an
amendment if he pleased.
The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member was quite
right in supposing that he might propose an amendment
when he pleased, but he should recollect that it must be an
amendment to the question before the House.,—(Cheers. )
Mr. H. HUGHES said his object was to oppose the whole
Bill.—( Laughter. )
The SPEAKER said it was quite true that the Bill in its
progress might have been opposed by the Hon. Member at
any stage, but now that the Bill had passed both Houses, he
could only apply himself to the amendments.—( Laughter. )
Mr. H. HUGHES asked whether it was necessary that
he should abstain from all comment or observation, and merely
confine himself to his motion ?
The SPEAKER assured the Hon. Member that he was at
liberty to make any statement he pleased, provided that state-
ment applied itself to the amendment.
Mr. H. HUGHES then entered into a course of argument
against the Bill and its clauses, and went an to observe that
the people of Oxford, and particularly thoso in authority, were
decidedly against it. They felt that in such a district where
such children were numerous, the weight upon the parish
would be most enormous, if the putative father were to be
exempted from all liability. The fact was that this Bill would
render all securities and responsibilities void. He thought
that the Bill ought to have a new title, and he would call
it " a Bill to Manage Pauperism, Prostitution, and Infanti-
cide." They had discussed this Bill, .they had printed it, why
not then let it go forth to the public and take their opinions
upon it with a view to a more regulated enactment next year?
Such a course as this was necessary before they adopted such
a measure.
An Hone. MEMBER—" But the Bill has passed ; it has
been adopted by both Houses."
Mr. H. HUGHES was aware that the Bill had passed that
House, and had also passed the other House with certain
amendments ; but he thought that it ought not to pass at all.
He thought at least that time ought to be given for a due con-
sideration of the measure.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
concluded by moving that those clauses be taken into considera-
tion this day three months.
Major BE A UCLERK seconded the amendment, as he
thought it was an insult to this House to put an extinguisher
upon our feelings, and as injurious to the best interests of the
Dissenters. Take this Bill altogether, and he would say that
it would entirely destroy property.
Mr. COBBETT said the alterations made in this Bill made
it a new Bill. The Noble putative father of this Bill said,
" his object was to do away with the right of the poor to re-
lief. He said it was false philosophy and false humanity, and
that we had fallen into error." He could wish he had the
Noble Baron now before him, but that was impossible ; but if
he could see him he would tell him that the law laid down by
Baron Gilbert was the law of the land, as to the right of the
poor to receive a necessary measure of relief in their necessi-
ties. He would go further, and say that the poor had a pre-
scriptive as well as a Parliamentary right to such relief. Was
the object of this Bill to prevent women from breeding. Yes,
he would repeat the question. Did the Hon. Gentleman wish
to patronise Carlile's book, which had been for months on sale,
while it was destroying the morals of the people? There was
the Attorney-General who prosecuted many obscene publica-
tions, and properly so too, while the outrageously obscene work
of Carlile escaped with impunity. Carlile's book was calculated
to show the mechanical process of having children without the
sanction of the marriage rite, and yet it was not prosecuted.
Why was this? Let the Government speak out and tell the
truth. He really believed their object was not to pass this
Bill.--( Cries of " Hear, hear.") As to the bastardy clause, he
considered it to be beastly; yes, beastly in its tendency, and to
discourage breeding ;it was, in fact, a vulgar drover-like at-
tempt to prevent breeding. The labourers were ready to re-
sist this Bill; and they had a right, as well as every other class
of the community, to resist an unconstitutional attempt upon
their liberties ; and they would resist the proposed Bastilles
in the shape of workhouses. What harm would be done by
postponing this Bill ? If delay were granted, the people
would read and reflect upon it, just as the recruit would in
being sworn, if he had a few hours to reflect on what he was
doing when he was sober. This Bill was all got through in
a hurry ; it was, in fact, all " hurry, hurry," and nothing else.
By granting delay, the people would really know what the
Bill was, and without it they never could do so. He would
say that resistance was necessary to this Bill ; and, if neces-
sary, he would himself participate in such resistance.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said be would not vote against
the amendment if the object was to throw out the Bill.
Sir S. WHALLE Y thought it would be right to take the
amendments seriatim, but in no shape, or alteration, could
he support this Bill. Why object to delay its consideration
till the next Session ? It would give the people time to con-
sider its provisions. He vainly expected this Bill would be
improved by the House of Lords—it had come down in a
worse condition than it was sent to them, and as such, without
any other consideration, he would oppose the Bill, and vote
for the amendment. Hei believed that the Bill would rather
tend to increase than diminish the amount of poor rates through-
out the country, besides engendering the serious dissatisfaction
of the people. The Noble Lord also stated that the salaries
of the Commissioners should not exceed 1,0001. a-year, while
it now appeared that the amount was doubled.
( Lord Althorp here made an observation across the table,
which we did not distinctly hear.)
Sir S. WHALLE Y said, however he was glad to find the
names of such respectable gentlemen as the proposed Com,
missioners.

rising was to state that those gentlemen who voted for postpon-
ing the measure would reject it.
Lord G. SOMERSET supported the amendment of the
Hon. Member for Oxford, simply on the ground that he did
not wish the House to agree to the bill during the present ses-
sion.

Mr. YOUNG said that by the Bill, as it now stood, the
cause that relief should be given to able-bodied poor from
June 1835, would come into immediate operation. That was
the strongest reason why the clause omitted by the Lords
should be restored, or the operation of the bill postponed till
another session.
Mr. HARVEY had heard with surprise some of the altera-
tions of their Lordships. To say in what manner relief
should be given was to destroy the principle of the Bill. Go-
vernment had gone great lengths in redeeming themselves
from the imputation of being feeble in their measures, because,
of all measures that had ever been proposed, this bespoke a
bold and determined design. It proposed to put off the mea- -
sure for the present session, but this was in fact putting off all
the measures of next session. What was not the next session
to bring forth ? A reformation of municipal corporations .an
abolition of Tithe Bill—a Church of England Reform Bill ;
it was to be the golden era of the Reformed Parliament. Pass
this Bill when you might, it would always be an experimental
Bill. If the Bill were let loose during the recess, and all the
Magistrates of England discussed its merits, we should be just
as wise about it as we were now. It was a hard Bill, but there
was this comfort that its hardships could not be enforced. It
could never operate for any length of time. The Bill was in
point of fact a repeal of the Corn Laws, and in that respect he
derived great comfort from it.
Mr. T. ATTWO OD agreed that if the Bill were dropped
this Session he would be a bold Minister- who should again
bring it forward. His belief was that the working classes
would not submit to this Bill. They were only bound to obey
the law as long as it afforded them protection ; if that salu-
tary protection were withdrawn, they were not bound to obey
it ; and he trusted that they would not obey it. He was sure
they would not obey it. When it came to be understood, it
would have such an effect on the minds of the people that no
power of arms or law could enforce it.
Mr. SINCLAIR hoped that the Bill would receive a
fair trial.
The House then divided :
For the motion
Against it
24
Majority 55
On our return to the gallery we found the Clerk reading
the Lords' amendments. The clause respecting workhouses
being read,
Mr. LANGDALE felt the utmost anxiety respecting this
clause, and concluded by moving, as an amendment, that
the House should not agree to the amendments of the Lords.
Mr. WILK S seconded the amendment.
Lord ALTHORP thought it of the greatest importance
that persons of every religious persuasion should have teachers
of their own doctrines, either at their own houses or at places
of worship, and if lie interpreted the omission of this clause as
a prohibition of instructors differing from the tenets of the Es-
tablished Church from entering the workhouses, no lan-
guage would be too strong to express his objections to
it. But he did not view the matter in that light. The
omission of the clause would not cause the exclusion of
Dissenters ; it would leave the law as it now stood,
and they now possessed the right of access. The only
mode in which any such person could be excluded would
be by an order of the Commissioners, which order must
in the first place, receive the sanction of the Secretary of State,
and in the next place be laid before that House. Would any
Gentleman believe it possible that, under such circumstances,
an order would be made for the exclusion of Dissenters ? He
would go further, and ask whether any one would believe that
orders would not be made expressly for their admission ? It
was only on that conviction that he would agree to the omis-
sion of the clause. He considered it highly desirable, that
when the other House made amendments in a Bill, unless they
were decidedly objectionable, this House should not differ from
them. He did not think that there was any thing seriously
objectionable in practice in this amendment, and therefore he
was inclined to agree to it ; but, at the same time, he did not
say, that if it was the opinion of the House that the clause
ought to be re-inserted, he should be one who would resist such
a proposition. He did not think it was at all likely that, if that
House dissented from the omission of the clause, the Lords
would therefore reject the Bill ; but still, as it was possible
that such a rejection of the amendments might lead to a diffi-
culty, and as he did not think the omission of the clause a
matter of much importance he should rather desire to agree to
the omission ; but, as he had said before, if the House consi-
dered the clause of importance, he should not be disposed to
press his opinion in opposition to such a decision.
Mr. BUCKINGHANI supported Mr. Langdale's proposi-
tion, because he thought the omission of the clause would press
on the religious liberties of the poor.
Mr. MART hoped the Lords' amendments would not be
adopted.
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR said a few words, which
were not heard in the gallery.
Mr. POTTER expressed his desire for the re-introduction
of the clause.
Mr. HAWES could not agree in the view taken of the sub-
ject by Lord Althorp. He thought the clause ought to be in-
serted, as it would be acceptable and grateful to a large por-
tion of the people.
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES hoped that the Noble Lord
would consent to the re-introduction of the clause.
Mr. RICE hoped the House would decide the point without
a division, in order that the opinion of the House of Commons
might possess the greatest possible weight.
Mr. BRISCOE expressed his approbation of the Bill ge-
nerally.
Lord ALTHORP did not mean to offer any resistance to
the proposition.
The amendment of Mr. LANGDALE was then agreed to, and
the amendment of the Lords, omitting the clause in question,
rejected.
Several verbal amendments to many of the clauses were
agreed to.
After a few words from Lord ALTHORP,
Mr. CRIPPS was anxious that the Bill should pass, but
certainly with certain modifications. For himself, he must
state that he could not take upon him to object to any of the
clauses until he had seen the Bill in full operation.
Mr. POTTER said a few words which were not suffi-
ciently audible in the gallery.
Lord ALTHORP hoped the amendments would be sup-
ported, as he was sure that neither bastardy, nor pauperism,
or infanticide would be increased by it, but, on the contrary,
the whole three would be decreased.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET protested against the
bastardy clause, and asserted that in 99 cases out of 100 it
was impossible to get at the putative father. He feared that
the alterations made in the Lords' Bill were of a most op-
pressive nature. He would mention an instance which oc-
curred in his own family.—(Loud laughter.) A young
woman was proposed as a servant in his house, and several
questions were asked of her as to what she could do; at length
she was asked why it was that she had left her last service, and
she at once became affected.—(Loud laughter.) I took my
hat and left the room (said the Hon. Member)—( Loud
cheers and laughter)—and it was found upon inquiry that the
poor girl, trusting to the fond promises of a faithful, or, as he
had proved, a faithless man-servant, had allowed herself to be
taken advantage of, and the natural consequence ensued.—
(Laughter.) But the girl's statement having been found to
be correct she was taken into his family, and she was now, ho
was happy to say so, the prudent and virtuous wife of an
honest and honourable man.—( Cheers, and a little laughter.)
After a desultory conversation, in which Mr. E. F. Young,
Mr. Benett, Mr. Blamire, Mr. Hughes, &c. took part,
The House then divided, when the numbers appeared_
For the Lords' amendment
Against it. l9
Majority —3l
Upon our return to the gallery, we found
Mr. AGLIONBY moving an amendment to a subsequent
clause to the effect that the Court be empowered to make an
order of affiliation upon the testimony of a woman, corrobo-
rated by such other evidence as they might deem it proper to
require.
The House divided, when there appeared--
For the amendment 4
Against it 44
Majority against the amendment —4O
A Committee was then appointed to conduct a conference
with the House of Peers on the subject of such clauses and
amendments as had not been agreed to.
Several of the amendments were then agreed to, and others
rejected, and a Committee was appointed to draw up the rea-
sons of dissent.
POOR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. L A NGD ALE brought up the report of the Committee
appointed to draw up their reasons of dissent to the Lords'
amendments on this Bill.
Mr. HAWES also brought up the report of the Commit-
tee appointed to draw up their reasons of dissent to the amend-
ments on the Justices of Peace Bill made by the Lords.
They were both agreed to.
Lord ALTHORP moved that the House at its rising do
adjourn to Wednesday.
Mr. GRATTAN opposed the motion, and thought the
House ought to meet to-morrow, because, if the Irish Tithe
Bill were thrown out in the Lords, some measures must be
taken to remedy the inconvenience to which Irish landlords
would be subjected. If the Irish Tithe Bill were not carried
Mr. Stanley's Act would come into operation on November 1,
and the consequence would be, that a receiver might
ap-
pointed to receive the rents of every estate in Ireland. b
Under
all the circumstances of the case he was disposed
thetp move an
address to his Majesty to give orders not to allo •military
or police
AtobeHaolloßwp saided h
to assist
was not w
in the collection
that
notf
r. tithes.
Lord Stan.
ley's Bill would have any such effect.
Mr. RUTHVEN said in case of such an event the country
would be exposed to great difficulty, and there would be but
efosdurayhnoeuxrst.wbat was best to be
little prospect of
gopfiela.LecoetrhdeoiA•LtLorraTdns3Hutioi:Rietypt.othAe
comet
H oall
tuos
eh agreievents,
their
ese there
edn ts
that
ao
could be no harm in allowing a _ay to intervene, in order that
adt they eTniotyeshn,mer
andti ishgi
enth might
Iciostotooint iortsddnoijdeorensrr nof to otthw\e:edtdayny-
g
being disposed of, the House
adjourned ctrl alf-past one.

The General Steam Navigation. Company's Mail
Packet, the Columbine, from Hamburg, arrived off the Cus-
tom-house, at five o'clock, p.m., 11th August. Also the Lord
Melville, from Calais, with many passengers on board, among
whom was the Hon. F. Byng, with despatches for Lord Pal-
merston. The Hon. H. Lindsay and Captain Pearson came
passengers by the Columbine.