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London, England, 1833-06-12 00:00:00

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favour of this Bill, be thought it would be unwise to reject
it, as it would tend very much to discourage the employ
ment of capital.
Colonel CONOLLY was of opinion that the grounds of
objection taken to the Bill were not good. If the road
was completed up to the harbour it must ultimately prove
a great source of benefit to Dublin, particularly as re-
garded coal, the consumption of which was greatly on the
increase, in consequence of the increasing use of steam-

engines.
Mr. W. WYNN said the House was not now called
upon to decide on the merits of the Bill. The only ques-
tion for them was, whether or not the Committee had
done their duty. Unless stronger grounds were produced
to show that such was the case he would oppose the motion.
Mr. SHAW said if he bad been present when the Bill was
before the House he should have voted for the Bill, and
against the Committee. He was, however, always un-
willing to withdraw matters of this kind from the ordi-
nary tribunals. He would express no opinion as to whe-
ther the Committee did or did not do their duty. It was
said there bad been canvassing in the Committee in oppo-
sition to the Bill. It might be so, bat be believed there
was as much canvassing for as against it. He did no.
mean to cmsure such a proceeding. It was quite natural
that those who were interested in a question should request
of Members to give their time and attention to it.
Mr. FITZSIMON said he had paid great attention to
the whole evidence, and it was his conscientious belief that
this work, if completed, would not be productive of public
benefit. If any person could he benefited by it more
than another, it was himself, because it would bring his
property seven miles nearer to the city of Dublin.
Mr. HALCOMB said a few words, which were ren-
dered inaudible by cries of " Question."
Lord OXMANTOWN said if the House was to decide
on the merits of the Bill he would be disposed to offer
some observations on what fell from the Member fcr
Dublin ; otherwise it would be useless to take up the time
of the House. He should like to have the opinion of the
chair upon the point.
The SPEAKER supposed the Noble Lord did not mein
that he was to pronounce an opinion on the merits of the
Bill. He understood the Noble Lord as only desiring to
know from him what was the origin and object of these
Committees of Appeal. The object was not to try over
again the merits of Bills, but to hear and decide on the
complaints of parties, and, if there was a prima facie
ground of ccmplaint against the decision of a Committee,
to etl rtain such complaint.
The motion was withdrawn.
SOUTH STAFFORD ELECTION.
On the motion of Mr. W. WYNN the Under Sheriff of
the county of Stafford was ordered to attend the House on
Friday, he not having as yet sent in any return to the writ
for the election of a Member for South Stafford.
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Mr. H. L. BULWER was about proceeding with his
motion relative to Lord Durham's special mission to Russia,
so far as it might relate to Germany and Poland, when
Lord ALTHORP hoped the Hon. Member would con-
sent to postpone his motion in consideration of the present
state of the public business. He trusted that the other
Hon. Members also who bad motions would permit the
orders to take precedence cf them. He had a motion him-
self for that night which he should postpone. There was
public business now before them of the greatest import-
ance, and it was hardly possible to expect that the session
would not he protracted to a late period, to the inconve-
nience of Members themselves and to the injury of the
public business, if those gentlemen who bad !notions to
bring forward did not consent to give precedence to
public business. He felt a difficulty in suggesting any
course, and was rather disposed to leave it to the feelings
of Hon. Members themselves. It was impossible that any
subject which might now for the first time be brought
forward could be determined in the present session. The
only consequence would be the loss of a day in opening
any question. It was suggested that Wednesday might be
made an order day, and that the number of order days
might be even still further increased; but to this he bad
strong constitutional objections. He should at present
content himself with merely throwing out a suggestion to
Hon. Members whether it would not be desirable to give
precedence to orders on more days than at present was the

practice.
Mr. I3ULWER expressed his readiness to concur in the
suggestion, and hoped others would follow the example.
The Hon. Member postponed his motion without naming
any day.
The following motions which stood for this day were
then postponed :
On post communication with Ireland, by Sir R.
BULKELEY.

-Fora repeal of the 41st of George 111., so far as it pre-
vents persons in holy orders not bolding benefices with
cure of souls from sitting in Parliament.—Postponed to
next session by Mr. PRIME.
Bill for abolishing imprisonment for debt.
Al9tton relitive ►o the island of Formosa.—Postponed
by Mr. C. MARJORIBANKS.
11r. GORDON said, as the subject of the East India
Company's Charter was to be brought on next Thursday
by his Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of
Control, he hoped his Hon. Friend (Mr. C. Fergusson)
would consent to postpone his motion relative to Poland,
which stood for Thursday.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON consented to postpone his mo-
tion to the 9th of July.
SCOTCH LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. R. WALLACE, pursuant to notice, moved for
leave to bring in two Bills for the amendment and better
regulation of the Sheriffs' Courts in Scotland, and for
shortening the delays and lessening the expenses of the
Courts of Session in SeotlAnd, and for altering and im-
proving the jurisdiction generally of such Courts, and fa-
cilitating the process of making appeals to the House of
Peers.

z ? 0

hat House should think fii:"

The LORD ADVOCATE did not think it necessary
to make any observations on those Bills at present, as he
understood it was the intention of his Hon. Friend only to
have them printed and laid on the table for this session.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON concurred in the propriety of
some measures such as those now introduced, as many of
the Courts in Scotland stood in need of very considerable
reform.
Mr. JERVIS (as we understood) objected to the ex-
pense of having Bills brought in merely for the sake of
having them printed.
Mr. IIUAIE thought it was the only safe way of effect.
ing reforms of the law, and with the least expense to the
country.
Leave was then granted to bring in the Bills.
PRECEDENCE OF ORDERS OF THE DAY.
Mr. EWART, pursuant to notice, moved that it be a
resolution of the House that for the present session orders
of the day should take precedence of notices of motion on
Wednesdays. The Hon. Member urged the adoption of
this rule as the only means of getting satisfl-Acrily through
the great mass of public business which stood upon the
order book for the present session.
Mr. C. BULLER seconded the motion.
Mr. WASON felt disposed to move as an amendment
upon the motion, that not only upon Wednesdays, but
upon one other day in the week, should orders of the day
take precedence of motions.—(General cries of " No.")
Mr. HU3IE agreed with the Hon. Mover that the mass
of public business, with such questions as the Irish Church
Bill, the English Tithe Bill, the West India question, and
others on the orders of the day, demanded that some pre-
cedence should be given of the kind proposed. Ministers
had hitherto been in the habit of taking Wednesday as an
idle day.--(" No, no," from the Treasury benches.) He
certainly had observed that they were more slack in their
attendance upon that day, and be hoped that henceforth
it would be made as much a day of business as any other day.
Lord ALTHORP did nut object to the motion of the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ewart). He admitted that Minis-
ters had been more frequently absent upon Wednesday than
upon other days ; but in a much less degree this session
than iu former ones. Although Ministers met in that
House, it was necessary that they should meet together
elsewliere.—(A laugh.) It was extremely inconvenient
and difficult to do so when that House was sitting, and
therefore Wednesdays had been generally reserved for that
purpose, as the House did not always sit late upon that
day. He agreed with the Hon. Member opposite (Mr.
Wason), that they ought to have still more days on which
orders of the day should have precedence ; but he thought
it would be much bet•er to leave it to the feelings of the
Hon. Gentlemen who might have notices of motion to give
way rather than to make it a peremptory rule.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON had frequently given way to tb•
request of Ciovernmeot, and thought it br,tttr to leave

as a matter of agreement than to make It a peremptory rule
of the Home.

Mr. C. W. WYNN also thought it better to leave it
to the general feeling of the House.—(Hear, hear.) Ibe
power always existed of pusiug to the order of the day
by a vote of the House, where a Member unreasonably
persisted in bringing forward a motion of no importance
when matters of grave consideration stood upon the orders
of the day.

The question was then put, and carried in the affir-
mative.

AMENDMENT OF THE REFORM ACT.

Sir F. VINCENT, pursuant to notice, rose to move a
resolution respecting the registering the voters under the
Reform Act. It was provided by the sixtieth clause of
the Act that the Select Committee appointed to inquire
into the merits of any petition against any return for any
county, city, or borough should have power to alter the
poll, and correct the register of votes by adding or striking
off t herefrom such persons as should appear not to he entitled,
or the contrary. The clause went on to direct that " the
Select Committee should report their determinition there-
upon to the House, and the House should thereupon carry
such determination into effect, and the return should be
amended, or the election declared void, as the case might
be, and the register corrected accordingly, or such other
order should be made as to the House should seem proper."
The Hon. Baronet observed that there was no specific pro-
vision whereby the correction of the register prescribed
was insured. He therefore proposed that it should lie a
resolution of the House that, in all cases where such Select
Committee should alter the poll, the Speaker should trans-
mit the corrections to the clerk of the peace, town clerk,
or other officer.

Lord ALTHORP saw no objection to the resolution.
It was certainly desirable that the register should be cor-
rected so as to correspond with the alterations made by any
Select Committee appointed to try the merits of any elec-
tion ; and such was the object of the framers of this Bill.
The resolution was then ageeed to.
BENCHERS OF THE INNS OF COURT.

Sir F. VINCENT 2, ave i•otiee that on Wednesday. June
26, he Bilotti(' move I.r Ti, upp;ntment of a Select Com-
mittee to inquire into tie c,nduct of the Benchers of the
Inns of Court upon the application of persons to be called
to the Bar.

COLONIAL SLAVERY.
The House then resolved itself into Committee upon
the resolutions respecting colonial slavery.
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bernal) read the fourth reso-
lution, " That towards conspen•ation to the planters his

Majesty be enabled to apply a sum not exceeding twenty
millions sterling, to be appropriated in such manner as

Mr. ROBINSON expressed his grat;6catiott at the

question of emancipation from slavery having arrived at
that stage at which it was no longer possible to prevent
its consummation. The only part of the question remain-
ing to be settled was that which referred to compensation.

He thought that if the people of England claimed the
honour of the abolition of slavery, not only in their own
colonies, but as a consequence of the example, all over the
world, the people would be ready to pay for it. He
wished, however, to know upon whom was to fall the
weight of the proposed donation of twenty millions. If
upon the shoulders of the people of this country, he was
afraid that the additional pressure of taxation consequent
upon it would not be very popular. The great difficulty
of the Noble Lord's Administration this session had
been in his inability to reduce taxation. For his own
part be was willing to contribute his share, and he lived
his constituents would be equally well disposed ; hut for
the great body of the people at large he could net so well
answer. He was of opinion that fifteen millions might
be enough, and he also thought the whole of the sum
should not be raised by an increased tax upon sugar,
which was already sufficiently taxed. From not knowing
bow the people of England felt upon this subject of com-
pensation, be found himself much embarrassed as to the
vote he ought to give. He should, however, concur in
the proposed compensation, if be found the majority of
the House of opinion that it was right.
Lord ALTHORP wished it to be distinctly understood

that if the House agreed to the present resolution, they
must find the means of making the compensation pro-
posed.--(Hear, and a laugh.) He felt himself bound
to state this from the manner in which the Hon. Member
who bad just sat down had expressed himself on the sub-
ject of compensation. That Hon. Gentleman said he did
not know the feeling of the people of England upon this
subject. He (Lord Althorp) thought that their petitions
proved they were ready to make any reasonable sacrifice
for the purpose of obtaining the emancipation of the slaves.
--(Hear, hear.) He wished it to be distinctly iiiderstood
that, if the money were granted, it would only be paid
after the condition for which it would be granted had been
performed ; not on the performance, but after its com-
pletion._-( Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. BULLER, though u desirous as any man for
universal liberty, could not but consider that this was a
question intimately interestiog the people, and it was the
duty of every honest representative to take care that not
one farthing of additional burden should be laid upon
them—oppressed, heavily oppressed, as the people were
already. It was most incumbent upon every honest re-
presentative to act strictly up to this principle now, when
so little thought for the people seemed to be evinced
by certain parties in the House. As to colonists,
indeed, be did not see why they might not ask
twenty millions as well as fifteen, or a hundred
millions as twenty, for, from every appearance, they would
find no difficulty in having their demands complied with by
his Majesty's reformed and most economical Ministers:
indeed, so liberal seemed the Chancellor of the Exchequer
of the people's money, that he dared to say the colonists
would nut have long to wait for their money, for the

Chancellor of the Exchequer has only to double the house
and window duty and the malt tax, and they would be paid,
principal and interest, in less than three years. He
meant no offence to his Majesty's Government.—( A laugh.)
He had been considerably surprised by the arguments of
more than one Member on either side of the question, bat
above all, he bad been astounded at a speech made by the
Hon. Member for Middlesex the other night—it was a
mast unhappy thing for the flock to be thus deserted by
the shepherd's dog—(Shouts of laughter)—be meant no
offence by the expression. He certainly had been petrified
to hear the Hon. Member talk of 20 !hilltops as a mere

trifle, which the people would grant without the least dif-
ficulty—who had so often stickled for the saving of 201. to
the people. He approved of gradual emancipation, but
partial compensation only ought to accompany gradual
emancipation. Now he objected to the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's proposal, that it gave full compensation, while
the emancipation was only to be gradual. He thought
that a less sum than that proposed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman might satisfy the planters.—(The Hon. Mem.
her here entered into a variety of details as to the value
of slaves in the new and old colonies, to show that the

compensation proposed was too much.) He shoeld wish
to propose, as an amendment to the plan of the Right
lion. Secretary, that a more simple and pure adoption
should take place of the Spanish system, and that the
slaves should work out their own freedom, and pay for it
by instalments. He knew indeed that his plan would not
meet the views of the Hon. Member for Weymouth ; hut
it had so many advantages that he could not avoid calling
the attention of the House to it. if that plan were fol-
lowed according to his calculation., the planters would be
fully compensated by four or five millions instead of fifteen.
It might certainly he objected to this, as to every plan of
gradual emancipation, that it was to a certain extent a
continuation of slavery—but that objection applied to
every species of gradual amelioration. Unless a Govern-
ment were reformed by a bloody revolution, the improve-
ment must be gredual, and every gradual improvement,
whether in governmtnt or slavery, necessarily implied a
retention for a time of many abuses. He congratulated
the House that at length the fiat had gone foe th for the
abolition of slavery, and that it was to proceed from them-
selves, and that it was immediately to be begun. Ile did
not contemplate the probable results with the same eyes
as other Hon. Members. He did not believe that it was
possible to make the black and the white population har-
monize together ; and he looked forward, without appre-
hension, to the establishment in the West Indies of a
dozen St. Domingos. The negroes would not work so
much—they might not work for a master, but he believed
that they would be well fed and happy.
Mr. PRYME agreed in the principles of the Right
Hon. Secretary's plan, but not in all the details ; and he
regretted that those details le;.1 been so much entered into,
because that was calculated to promote delay. He coml.
dered that the Right Hon. Secretary's rate of compensa-
tion was too high. He had entered into a considerable
number of calculations, and he believed that 17 instead of
20 millions would be a full compensation to the planters,
at the greatest value of their property. He bad examined
with great care the tables of the imports and exports of
the colonies for periods of five years, and he could say,
that from 1761 down to 1807, there had been a graduai
increase in the importation of negroes, with the single ex-
ception of the four years of the American war. The
result of that was that there was a continual over •
importation of slaves till the slave trade was estin
guished. To that he attributed part of the distress
of the p►anters. With respect to the question of
property in slaves, which had been mooted, he denied that
any laws or proclamations warranted the assertion wad:
hy the planter that this country lass recognised the present
right of Property in tho alarea, He bad exatnintd tat

sets and procliensareina referred to'hyllie planters in sup-
port of their view.: and he was hound to say that they did
nbt bear out that assertion. He admitted that the laws
had recognised the property of the planters in the slave,
they had imported, but those laws never recognised any
tech property in the offspring of those slaves. There was
a dance in the Registry Act which had been relied on by
the planters as recognising even the right of property in
the offspring. That clause said, that the offspring shou'd
have the benefits of registration as well as the parents. It
was intended, therefore, to secure benefits to the children
—not slavery. Where, he should like to know, was the
money to-lie paid to the West India planters to come from?
Was it to come from the packets of the people of Englind?
Why, the people were on every hand calling out for relief
from their present burdens—from the house and window
duties—from the malt tax—in short, the cry throughout
the country was for remission of existing taxes, and ntt
for new impositions.—(Hear.) The increase of the duty
on sugar was very impolitic, and would tend to limit is
consumption. It was a point with him to make himselt
acquainted, as minutely as possible, with the state of a i
classes of society; and he knew that there was an in
creasing desire amongst the labouring classes, to consume
more sugar than they did—a desire which was only limited
by the present high duties, and which would be effectually
extinguished by the imposition of any additional tax.
Meijer I3EAUCLERK regretted that he felt himself
bound to vote against the proposition before the Committi
for he could not help giving the greatest possible credit to
his Majesty's Ministers for the manly manner in which
they bad brought forward and grappled with the difficulties
of this very difficult question. He could not, however,
support a grant of 20,000,000/. under existing circum-
stances. Not that he objected to the principle of com-
pensation to the planters, but because they had not at pre-
sent arty meals of ascertaining what sum would be a fa,r
compensation for their loss. If the Right Hon. Gentleman
were to come down, at the expiration of a year, or fur-
ther definitive time, after the plan bad been commenced,
and show the House what was the actual yearly loss sus-
tained by the planters upon the cultivation of their estates,
then he would not object to give them such an amount as
would prove a fair compens ition, even though that amount
were to exceed 20,000,000/. He cauld not also but ob-
ject to ine 12 yews' apprenticeship. It appeared to him
to he open to great abuse, and he much feared that when
this 1111 was waited across the Atlantic, and the enforce-
ment of its regulations intrusted to the Houses of Assem-
bly, apprenticeship would prove but another name for sla-
very, and that the Magistrates would be to the full as severe
as the planters had hitherto proved. There were two
means of making the negro work, either by wages or the
lash ; and if they deprived him of the latter, they would
not make him work without the former. He had no
doubt of the Right Hon. Secretary's conscientious belief in
the prac•icibility of the plan, but he could not consent to
vote away 20 millions of the public money, unless upon
more detailed statements, and more distinct proof th
they could at present obtain. When such should be brought
before them, he would not hesitate, for he conceived it
was in justice due to the planters, and to the honour of
that House, to give the West India proprietors fair coin-
pensation.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord SANDON objected to taking away the property
of any man on such indefinite terms as the- prosp-ct of
compensation at the distant period suggested by the Hon.
and Gal:ant Alember for Surrey. It had been stated by
the Hon. Member for Cambridge that twenty millions
was an over-valuation. Even supposing that were the
case, and that 17,500,0001. were nearer the mark, stitl
he thought the difference would be well bestowed to se-
cure the hearty co-operation of those whose assistance was
so essential to its success. But he believed the Hon.
Alenitter was much mistaken, and that on a calculation,
25,000,0001. would be found to be much nearer the
truth. The gicss West India produce exported annuAy
by the West India colonit s was about 10,000,000/., and
that consumed in the colonies about 2,400,0001. As
they proposed to diminish a fourth of the labour, ti ey
w. uld diminish the produce by one-fourth, and thus in
exports about 2,500,0001., would be taken away from the
West India proprietor-. And what did they propose to
give them in exchange? Twenty millions, which at 51.
per cent. would produce only 1,000,000/. per annum ;
or, in another point of view, it might be considered that
they were giving them only eight years' purchase. The
Nubie Lord was very indistinctly beard throughout his
speech ; but we understood him to repudiate the idea that
the planters viewed this concession as matter of triumph
and exultation, or that they would oppose themselves to
the plan, fur lie knew they considered die experiment as
inevitable. They certainly had asked further for a loan
of 10,000,000/., and had that been granted, it would, no
doubt, have secured fur the measure their more hearty
and singuine co-operation; but, neverbe!ess, he doubted
not they would do all in their power to give effect to the
intentions of the Legislature in the settlement of this

qu.stion.
Mr. PRYME explained.
Air. JERVIS protested against the light in which wane
Hon. Members appeared to view the grant of the additional
five mil ions, viz., as a sort of boon to purchase the a.sis-
tance and co-operation of the planters. To this he would
not agree. He was assured that the people of this country
I.ad not the slightest conception that this measure of eman-
cipation would prove so expensive, and they would li-gin
to think that if they could afford to give so largely to the
West India planters, they were, in the first place, entitled
to a remission of some of those taxes which pressed so
heavily upon them.—(Hear, hear.) When Mitaisttrs had
been applied to fur a reduction of the malt tax, and
for the abrogation of the house and window tax,
what was their answer ?—Such a reduction, under the
circumstances of the country, was impracticable. Yet the
original proposition of a loan of 15,000,000/. had been
changed into a gift of 20,000,0001. There might have
LQen reasons, f r aught he knew, for adopting this new
arrangement—reasons affecting one political party and an-
other political party. But there was another party who
4learreed some little consideration, namely, the people of
England, They ought to look a little at the effect of the
measure. Assuming the annual value of the slaves to be
2,500,000/., they were, by this measure, about to impose
upon the country a perpetual charge of 1,000,000/., in
order to cover a temporary charge of 2,500,000/. for
ovalee yeats. The Hun. Member then alluded to the
profits of mortgages, which (as we understood), in the
case of a mortgage to the amount of six per cent. upon a
litroperty in the West Indies, might be fairly calCulated, in
nisi opinion, at twenty-five per cent. He thought that
such a state of things demanded inquiry, and he never would
e,ansent to tax the people to the amount of 1,000,000/.2
without some investigation into the circumstances of the
case.
. . _

Mr. STANLEY observed, that it was impossible fur
bin', considering the turn which the discussion had taken,
to avoid taking some notice of the arguments which had
been used. There was a party who were anxious for the
emancipation of the slaves, from a feeling in favour of
li-
berty in the abstract. The arguments on the opposite
aide were much of the same nature as of a person, of et
convincing you of the impropriety of keeping aniniall in
bondage, saying to you, " You need not sell your
botses, give them to me." The resolutions which the
House had already passed, had carried irrevocably the
ant of the abolition of slavery; and the only point now
,PSem, whether that abolition should take place in a mariner
gornatitrAt with honesty and sound policy ? It had at one
time enter,d into the contemplation of Ministers to sepa-
rate the question of the abolition of slavery from that of
the money compensation to the planters. The objec•i3n
to this course of proceeding was, that the one me (sure
might by possibility have been carried without the other,
and it was thought desirable that the same picket which
carried out to the West Indies the announcement of the
abolition should also carry out the particulars of the coin-
pensation to which the Legislature thought the planters
were justly entitled. An Hun. Member had assetted,
that it the country had been aware that au addi!idnal
burden of 1,000 000/. per annum would be imposed upon
the people by the vote fur the abolition of slave,y, the
number of petitions upon the suldect would hive been very
considerably diminished. The people of England, in
his (Mr. Stanley's) opinion, had acted upon far less selfish
motives than bad been attributed to them. They were
perfectly willing (be bad no doubt) to undergo the share
of the burdens which were nentssary in order to perform a
great act of justice. Ti.e money which would he ex-
Fended would be productive of great practical benefits—.
would alone only be of service in preventing that effusion
of blued which mutt inevitably be the ultimate result of
the continuation of the present unnatural state of things
in the West Indies. It had been argued that Govern-
ment had acted in an extravagant manner in so lemliiy
altering a loan of 15,000,0001. into a grant of 20,000,0001.
That assertion was not perfectly correct, for the loan was
to be repaid by the wages of the negroes. The ritr!stion
was one of the most gigantic importance which 1c had
ever had to discuss in Parliament ; and he deprecat.d the
idea that the measure was merely brought forward to feel
the pulse of the public. It had been forgotten that a
great portion of the slaves were employed in domestic and
other services not connected with the raising of sugar.
He was persuaded that the House would agree with him
that the saving of three, four, or five millions, w,,uld be
iliPtifulletnitoniy, if by that saving any impediment were
thrown in...the:way of the abolition of slavery.—(lleac. )
R. POTTER felt as great a wish as sty gentle
man fur the abofitiini of colonial slavery,-but- he.c. n'd not
sunsuit to purchase it at so high a price as that 'italicised
• - •

_ _
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