The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-24 00:00:00

64
eip the interests •
„tt,° of the poor, and see that they suffered
i.n.l,,ng by neglect or oppressive management. fhe hon.
viiiPlber for Kentbeen, he had quoted a speech of Mr. Pitt's,
not considered, treated with that
,ertous attention it so eminently deserved. Mr. Pitt was
I'," advocate of the poor, and the amendments he (Colonel
;d) proposed were similar to those introduced by him
'n nis bill of 1796:
Lord ALTIIORP considered an assistant commissioner
ought to be free from all local prejudices and influences,
Which he 'Would not be the case if the changes were
g'lor'ied suggested by_ the hon. gentleman who had moved
the amendments. His apprehensions of the workings of
'lle bill, as the bill at present stood, were considerable;
hat he (Lord Althorp) was inclined to think that such
ems were groundless. With respect to a visiter to
hive
parish, he did not see what such a functionary would
111Lve to do, as all the duties would be efficiently discharged
°Y, . the commissioners contemplated by the bill; he must,
therefore, oppose the proposition of the hon. member.
lite assistant commissioners would have most important
'Pities to fulfil; in fact, they would be called upon to
aperintend the workings of the entire system—to find that
the law was obeyed—the poor protected—and labour
tlearly and equally distributed. Their appointment ought
to tbe vested in the central board, who were responsible for
their conduct. In fine, if the present machinery was
found not sufficient when put •in operation, it might be
modified or enlarKed.
Lord GRAN VILLE SOMERSET was of opinion that
visiters mentioned would interfere with the local ar-
rangements of parishes, and cause a state of things far dif-
ferent from that desired by the hon. gentleman who had
4113ved the amendment. While he was thus speaking, he
\`;ould wish to know from the noble lord opposite, what was
the
amount of salary he intended to propose for the corn-
'',issioners and assistant commissioners ? ( Hear.) It was .
VA the country should have such information, although
Petilaps his question would be more apposite when they had
'°l 1e to the consideration of the general clause.
AGLIONBY hoped the noble lord would not be
dueed to make any alteration in the clause.
roaglColonel TO RREN S would not confer such power on the
strates, but rather confine it to the Central Board.
'lr. CHARLES WYNN, so far from considering nine
',s'il,tant-corrimissioners too many, felt confident their num-
u.enr„n°4ld be found too few for the immense duties they
"
,—,ll have to perform. He thought the appointment of
commissioner for each county would come nearer to the
necessity of the case. When they were about being named,
Wales would put in its claim that one of them should
tpeak Welch. (Laughter.) Hon. gentlemen might smile,
but it would be found impossible to communicate with the
different overseers in the principality, unless the commis-
li°llers could speak the language in general use there. The
,°'aellinery by which the bill would work ought to be en-
"`bed, but he would not remove the appointment of the
eo4ritnissioners from the central board.
Mr. GROTE would on no account consent to hare the
IPPointments taken from the central board.
Sir MATTHEW W. RIDLEY should oppose the
amendment.

Colonel DAN lES was for increasing the number of
eommissioners.

Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE said the magistrates'
Power was about to be swept away, and if complaints came
before them they could neither advise nor redress. Cor-
, :,,e4Pondence would have to be opened with London, which
,",°!'ld increase to an extent beyond all precedent, and
..!ti,oh could scarcely be attended to in all its minute, but
thi most important details ; he would, therefore, suggest
I%.Quid be at au officer should be appointed for each parish, who
able to answer all the questions propounded, and
tore the necessary information to those appointed to carry
the Provisions of the bill into operation. The doctrine of
noble lord was not sound. The commissioners going
11441t°,.41frerent counties could not be so accurately informed
Permanently named for each. The local officer, he
;olesidered, should have the auditing of the accounts, and
the overseers should be made responsible for them before
e:Y went up to the board. This only could reconcile the
-ItHltrY to the changes about to be introduced.
Lord ALTHORP was for several moments totally in-
Liklible in the gallery. We understood him to deprecate
r system under which the assistant commissioners would
number,
called upon to interfere in local matters. As to this
shrnber, if they were found insufficient, they could be
erwards increased. Their appointment, he still thought,
4,14111 t to be vested in the Central Board. With regard to
tile audit of accounts alluded to by the hon. baronet the
ernber for Buckingham, he would observe, that when
they came to that part of the bill, more strict provisions
should be introduced if they were thought necessary.
Rl*. LLOYD said it was hard to comprehend this bill.
e Understood that the course would be this :—The corn-
Zssioners were to make a set of general rules for the
idance and governance of the poor laws. The rules
Were to be submitted to the Central Board for its approba-
tion. The assistant commissioners were to see that these
k, ulations were complied with, and report to the Central
°card that they were duly administered. Thus the as
commissioners were to act as a middle body between
the ooramissioners and the administrators of the laws. He
hrneught the nine assistant commissioners were neither too
nor too few, but that they would be found fully ade-
rate to all that would be required of them. If the noble
_o rd could confirm the view that he had taken of what
;Vould be the operation of the bill as regarded the North of
on gland in Particular, he could say that such a declaration
2 greatly allay the feeling of opposition entertained
against the measure.
Colonel EVANS said it appeared to him that the Assist-
ant Commissioners were to have the same power as the
p'
ultnissioners. They were to be Justices of the Peace ;
d in one respect their powers would exceed those of the
'Grarnissioners, for they were to be competent to be pre-
-I,°-4t. at all vestries, and to take part in the proceedings.
'his clause, on that ground alone, he considered to be the
t objectionable in the whole bill. The proposal to
°e such a power had excited a great deal of jealousy
Jroughout the country, and while that power existed the
ralousy would continue. The Commissioners, they were
i,'04(1, might appoint Assistant Commissioners ; the First
h. '4 of the Treasury, however, might appoint 99 if it were
Is.pleasure, or even 199.
taliord ALTHORP was understood to say that the view
wa," of the measure by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lloyd)
the,''''rect. As regarded the Assistant Commissioners,
obi'. were to have the power of attending vestries, and the
Jest Was, that they might make such suggestions as might
t,usiered necessary ; but they would have no vote.
tud fiat was intended was, that such suggestions should be
k"0 e as it was thought desirable that the vestries should
th Pt. For instance, the recommendation might relate to
wareeerection of a workhouse. The central board would
the power of suggesting to any parish to build a
orkhouse. Now, under the bill, the Assistant Commis-
7ters might attend and use such arguments as were
'ought calculated to induce the vestry to adopt the sug-
Ntion of the central board. It appeared to him that this
Torded no reasonable ground for jealousy. He did not
think that there could be any well-grounded objection to a
er being given to a person to recommend the adoption
It was suggestion by the vestry, if they thought fit so to do.
necessary to give to the Assistant Commissioners
en,siderable power, as they would. have to examine the
1441ns of the parish, and to see that the parish officers
A,.°t contravene the provisions of the act.
SLANEY said that this bill did not touch the
'r rate, it affected only the law of settlement. The
t:Pure certainly did affect the mode in which relief was
telive admbeente inisred. There cld be no uestion but tha
of had administered in a ou
great portionq of England,t a tom mode that was most injurious even to the humbler
es
themselves. (Hear,- bear.) A vest deal of money
a been spent, without any advantage being derived from
Its expenditure. Thus the scale of relief was different in
in o county differed
°lle arish from another
from, another ; the scale diffeied sometimes in one hundred
(Hear, hear.
from another, even in the same county.
Was it not necessary, then, in looking at this subject, .)
endeavour to establish some system of uniformity ?Ittiof
this was to be done, how was it to be obtained ? Were
`ITY to go back to the 43d of Elizabeth, and adopt the
of that act, as it regarded the able-bodied r ?
Any one acquainted with the different practices that had
,vailed, would say that it was impossible to introduce
:ulformity at once in a country in which relief had been so
t:ribnsly administered. The question was how were they
attain it without danger ? And he would. ask, could any
ptan be better than having certain rules laid down, to be
lainally
inadopted, according to the experience and know-
ge Obtained of the local situation of the country ? That
(11 Precisely what the government endeavoured to do.
ea? The house was asked to appoint commiss.ioners
Those uty it would be not to lay down rules of their own
violation of acts of Parliament, but to make regulations
in consonance with the spirit and letter of Acts of Parlia-
?tent. He did think that the powers given to the Central
tleard had been very much exaggerated Their business
Would be to see certain rules
that were laid down duly fol-
lowed out. He did think that in the pro. gressof tht.e_macea:
',tire many of the objections made to it would be sa isf to
mea-
n got rid of; but of all those objections that suggested
by
h 011.4 the hon. and gallant member for :set rid! fids,t er
not appeared
imagine
him to have the least foundation.
him
the hon. and gallant member could conceive it ossi-
to *obtain the necessary uniformity without g^iving Pa
dis-
beettit:barY power somewhere, and to whom could it be
4,3 t r intrusted than to those who would be accountable,
°ouut'4lY to the Government, but to this house and to the
hit.Y: (Hear, hear. )
was ir;,tl ODGES thought that the machinery by which it
be i 4 `eode to carry this bill into effect would be fouudto
sionerssuni`'ient. When he considered that the commis-
aPProt,lllllst make the rules which were to be submitted for
ry to the central board, and that there were to be
that ;'„ne assistant commissioners, he could not but fear
tenal;" surile cases the business of providing for the main-
He ho of of the poor would come to a stand-still. (Hear. )
coursePed that any difficulties that might arise in the
-for t,winter would not render it necessary
to "ere being a sudden summons of this house
thajneet the unpleasant emergency. He thought
the the measure would tend in some degree to wean
'teighlPle from looking towards their influential
the hours as heretofore, amongst whom he would number
ec;_4lgistrates, for protection. (Hear, hear.) This was naideration which he thought worthy of more attention

1 than hon. gentlemen sceiredto be aware of.' There was a
district within twelve miles of Where he lived, the people
of which, if deprived of the pou cr of obtaining protection
in the quarters in which they had hitherto sought assist-
ance, would, he feared. unite cor their mutual protection.
(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Kni.witig this, he thought. it his
duty to state the fact to the house. e hoped adequate
means would be found of exercising the powers given by
this bill, without outraging the,feelings of the country.
Mr. GODSON thought it would be an improvement of
the measure if an officer were appointed by the magistrates
at quarter sessions for each county. They would be a sort
of link between the county and the assistant commissioners,
and would be able from their local knowledge to give all
the information that the assistant commissioners would
require, with a view to the carrying of this measure into
full effect.

Lord ALTHORP explained that the observations he
had made were to show the mode in which the assistant
commissioners would execute the powers under the act;
he did not, in the remarks to which the hon. gentleman had
alluded, intend to say what these powers were.
Mr. R. PALMER was enabled to concur with the sug-
gestion that the machinery by which it was intended to
carry this measure into effect would be found deficient.
There ought, in his opinion, to be some local authority
given by the act to superintend the overseers of the poor
in the immediate neighbourhood. For a number of years
the poor had been in the habit of looking up to the magis-
trates as their protectors ; and was it desirable that this
resource should fail them all at once, and that they should
be thrown on regulations originating at a distance, and
coming from somebody of whom they could know nothing?
(Hear, hear.) They might be told to obey the law which
pointed out the course to be pursued, but a good deal of
unpleasant feeling might thence arise, such asevery gentle-
man would, if possible, gladly avoid. He approved of the
suggestion of his hon. friend. but he would ask him whe-
ther it was not advisable, with reference to the object he
had in view, to propose an additional clause to the bill
rather than an amendment.

Mr. TOWERS objected to the power of the commis-
sioners to appoint the assistant commissioners, as an un-
wholesome power.
Colonel EVANS said that the assistant commissioners
would have the power of controlling, by the influence they
would possess, the proceedings of the vestries.
Mr. HAWES said, that some hon. members appeared
to think that great disadvantages would result from the
power being taken out of the hands of the magistrates, but
from the report of the poor law commissioners it appeared
that the interference of the magistracy had been most in-
jurious. (Cheers.) The house should not forget it was
during the period the magistracy had had the description
of power which it was designed apparently to preserve to
them, that the poor-rates had increased, and the moral
condition of the labouring population of England had been
utterly neglected. (Cheers. )
Colonel WOOD remarked, that when the hon. member
suggested that the local magistracy should have nothing to
do with the execution of this bill, he should also have pro-
posed to relieve them of other duties that devolved upon
them, so that when they saw the ricks around them on fire,
and a rural mob goaded on to violence, the local magistrates
should not be called in to put such proceedings down.
(" Oh, oh !" and " Hear.) No body of men had performed
more important services to the country than the local ma-
gistracy, and he firmly believed that such a class of persons
were not to be found in any other nation in the world.
( Hear, hear.) He was ready to fall in with the sugges-
tions of the hon. member for Berkshire and the hon. mem-
ber for Essex. He would withdraw his amendment on the
clause for the present, intending to propose it, or some-
thing like it, as an addition to the bill. The noble lord
did not seem to understand the practical working of the
measure, for he had talked of magistrates having the power
of auditing the overseers' accounts. Now that was not the
case. They were merely signed by two magistrates at
petty sessions, who thus affirmed the rate as legal, but they
exercised no practical control over its imposition. He
hoped that the central board would establish one uniform
system for keeping parochial accounts throughout the
kingdom.
Lord AL f HORP maintained that the magistrates had
the power at petty sessions of striking out or disallowing
items in the overseers' accounts.
Colonel WOOD said it was not usual to exercise such
a power.
Mr. CLAY said,that generally speaking, thepower ex-
ercised by the magistrates at petty sessions, in reference to
the accounts of the overseers, was purely ministerial,
though there was no doubt that they had the power if they
chose to disallow the rate. He hoped to God that the
noble lord would not listen to the suggestions of those who
wanted to have the appointment of the assistant-commis-
sioners transferred from the central board to the local
magistracy. (Hear.) The appointments should be left
in the hands of the central board, so as to leave entire,
complete responsibility upon them. (Hear.)
Sir C. BURRELL defended the magistracy.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the blank for
the number of assistant-commissioners was filled up with
the word " nine."

In reply to an inquiry of an hon. member, we believe
Mr. LLOYD, as to the expense of the establishments under
the bill, . . . .

Lord ALTHORP would say that it was intended to
give the commissioners a liberal saiary-1,0001. a year,
and the other officers a less sum, but it was difficult to say
what the whole amount would be. The utmost possible
economy would be observed, and the sum would be voted
annually. (Hear. )
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 7, empowering the commissioners to appoint
secretaries, clerks, and other officers, was then agreed to
without observation.

Clause 8, requiring commissioners and assistant-commis-
sioners to take oaths, was also agreed to.
Upon clause 9,
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY inquired whether power was
to be given to the assistant-commissioners to make rules
and regulations?
Lord A.LTHORY, as far as he could be understood,
said that they could only make rules in particular cases.
If the hon. member would refer to the end of the bill, he
would see the powers given to the assistant-commissioners.
They were subject to the central commissioners, and
would act under the control of that board.

Some observations upon this point fell from Mr. LLovn,
Lord G. SOMERSET, and Mr. GROTE, but they could not
be heard. _ _

Mr. SLANEY said that much misapprehension pre-
vailed as to the agency of the commissioners ; they would
not have so much to do as was generally supposed ; one-
half of England they would not touch.
In reply to a question of Sir S. WHALLEY,
Lord ALT HOHP said that the central board would
have the power of making general rules, which the assist-
ant-commissioners could not revoke; nor would the
assistant-commissioners have the power of making any
new rules, except the central board gave them power to
do so. They would have the power of making particular
rules for particular parishes; but if a parish appealed
against rules made by assistant-commissioners. those rules
were to be suspended, and not put in force till the central
board decided on the question.
Sir S. WHALLEY asked why the assistant commis-
sioners should have power to make any rules whatever ?
Mr. W. WHITMORE understood the assistant-com-
missioners would be servants of the commissioners, and
would communicate with them ; it' not, the bill was
defective. _ • . . .

Mr. F. LEWIS thought that the assistant commissioners
should have sufficient power delegated to them to act
promptly in special cases. With respect to the details of
the measure, he thought that legislation de minimis in
such a case as this was bad. What was complained of was,
that there had been an abuse of a good system of laws upon
this subject. Let gentlemen consider, and compare the
evidence respecting the administration of workhouses. In
Reading and other places, it was stated that paupers lived
in the workhouse better than tradesmen in their own
houses. Where this was found to be the case, the assistant
commissioners ought to be able to direct more work to be
given to the paupers, and that they should not be so well
fed. If the house would read the reports, they would find a
reason for every clause in the bill, and he cordially thanked
the noble lord for bringing it in. It was a great mistake
itt, any one to imagine that the bill was for the benefit of
therich ; on the contrary, it was to snatch the poor
mselves from the degradation and misery which the
y
parirrent law brought upon them. If gentlemen would look
into the bill, their objections would shrink to nothing.
Irresponsiblesystem. power
They
couldth e powermake
taxes ofoverseers
under the present
amount they pleased. The right 3'
hon. gentleman expatiated
upon the deteriorating influence the existing laws, and
stated, with respect to the bastardy of
ardl
he represented (Radnor), it apps
,wdp, that in the county
ra official returns,
that one in eight children weiki bastards.r The bill con-
tained the elements of hope. The power
which the com-
missioners would possess would not be espotic, they would
not overrule the law, but only explain it.
Lord SANDON thought that words ought to be intro-
duced, expressly giving to parishes the right of suspending
the regulations of the assistant-commissioners until an ap-
peal had been made to the chief-commissioners, and their
decision obtained.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY expressed a similar opinion.
Mr. STANLEY said, that the assistant-commissioners
could not stir a step without the authority of the chief-
commissioners.
Mr. GODSON thought that the objection of his hon.
friends would be obviated if the words " assistant bar-
risters" were inserted in the 45th clause.
The clause was verbally amended and agreed to.
Sir S. WHALLEY hoped that the committee would
proceed no further that night. (Cries of "Oh !" and
Go on.")
Clauses 10, 11, and 12 were, after some conversation,
carried on in a tone which rendered it unintelligible, sub-
jected to verbal amendments and agreed to.
On the motion of Sir S. WHALLEY, the chairman
reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.
The house having resumed,
The House Duty Repeal Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed.

—The-other orders of the day having been disposed of, the
house adjourned at one o'clock.

DIVISIONS in the HOUSE of COMMONS

LONDON MECHANICS' INSTITUTION.

The tenth anniversary meeting of the London Me-
chanics' Institution was celebrated n Thursday evenly g
at the theatre of the Institution, in Southampton-build-
ings, Chancery.lane. Long before the time appointed
for the meeting the theatre was crowded in every part,
amongst whom were a great many elegantly dressed
ladies, who appeared to take a great interest in the
proceedings of the evening. On the platform we
noticed the Hon. Mr. Pelham, M. P., Col. Torrens,
M. P. Dr. Lardner, Mr. Basil Montague, Mr. Owen,
Mr. Babbage, Mr:Martineau, Mr. Pettigrew, Mr.
Morgan, &c. &c. &c. The Lord Chancellor had
promised to attend the meeting, but was unavoidably
prevented by his official duties.
At a quarter past eight o'clock Dr. BIRKBECK took
the chair, amidst the most enthusiastic applause.
The CHAIRMAN, in opening the business of the even-
ing, said it would only be an unnecessary waste of
time to talk about the advantages derived from the
London Mechanics' Institution. That institution had
had ten years' trial, and it was found to extend bene-
fits and comforts. Within the last few years six
similar institutions had arisen iu and near the metro-
polis, therefore if some dropped others sprung up.
Since the last annual meeting large institutions had
also been formed at Leicester, Salisbury, and Lincoln.
( Cheers.) The one at Lincoln was the most gratify-
ing, as it was in a county the least expected. This
institution had been promoted and sanctioned by Lord
Yarborough. ( Cheers.) That noble individual was
convinced of the benefits of Mechanics' Institutions,
and would have been present that evening had he not
been suddenly called from London. ( Cheers.)
Several reports had been received from institutions in
different parts of the country, and they were very
favourable. The report from Chichester suggested
that some plan of correspondence should be established,
by which the institutions in one part of the kingdom
might be put in possession of the operations and pro-
ceedings of other institutions. He thought this sug-
gestion
well worthy of attention. The Chairman
then went into a history of different institutions, and
stated that they had not, until lately, met with the
support of the Quakers, but now that respectable body
were affording them every encouragement. ( Cheers.)
After a detail of minor circumstances, the Chairman
said the first prize of 101., given by Professor Rennie,
had been awarded to a member of that institution
named Brown. When this individual joined the in-
stitution he was a comb-maker, but he had since pub-
lished several essays, which reflected on him the highest
credit. Mr. Brown had written a letter, setting forth
the advantages he had derived from joining the Me-
chanics' Institution, which the Chairman read. That
Institntion, the writer stated, first gave him a taste for
reading, and by the means of cheap publications he
had laid in a store of, useful knowledge. His first
attempt at writing was an address on the Manchester
massacre ; this was well received, and he then wrote a
poem, dedicated to Sir, Robert Peel, entitled, " The
Mechanic's Saturday Night." He has since published
another poem, called f' St. Monday" ( Hear, hear,
and laughter), and he had another in manuscript, en-
titled " Sunday." ( Cheers.) The next business of
the evening would be the production of a series of
Essays produced during the past year. A noble lady
had offered a prize, which had produced eighteen
essays, on the subject whether emulation in education
should be encouraged or nut. Nine essays were in
favour of emulation, and seven against it ; all were ex-
cellent. Five pounds were also given by this noble
lady for a second prize, and adjudged to a member of
the Institution. The Chairman then entered into a
description of the prizes, and a history the indivi-
duals to whom they were awarded.
The Hon. Mr. PELHAM moved the first resolution,
to the effect of the great benefits to be derived from
Mechanics' Institutions.

Mr. JAMES MARTINEAU seconded the resolution,
which was unanimously carried.
Mr. BARRAGE moved the second resolution.
Mr. PETTIGREW seconded the resolution.
The resolution was carried unanimously.
Col. TORRENS, M. P., moved the third resolution,
which, having been seconded, was carried unanimously.
Dr. LARDNER moved the next resolution, expressive
of thanks to the benefactors and patrons of the Me-
chanics' Institution.
Mr. MORGAN seconded the resolution.

The CHAIRMAN said they had every expectation that
the Lord Chancellor would have been present that
evening, as that noble individual fixed the day and hour
for holding their anniversary, and therefore his absence
must arise from some unavoidable circumstance over
which he had no control.

The resolution was carried by acelamati( 1.
Mr. lIEREPATH moved the thanks of the meeting to
their enlightened and philanthropic chairman, the pre-
sident of the institution.

The motion having been seconded, and carried
with acclamation,
Dr. BIRKBECK returned thanks.
The meeting, which continued crowded throughout
the proceedings, adjourned at a late hour.