The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-02 00:00:00

THE SABBATH.

Mr. H. FLEETWOOD gave notice that on Monday
next he should introduce a bill for facilitating the better
observance of the Sabbath !_(Cries of " Oh. oh ! oh !"

GENERAL REGISTRY BILL.

Mr. TOOKE brought up the General Registration of
Deeds Bill, which was read a first and second time.
Lord EBRINGTON wished to take that opportunity of
asking the right hon. Secretary at War if any measure had
been adopted in pursuance of a recommendation for an in-
crease of the pay of attached general officers.
Mr. ELLICE replied, that at present it was not found
advisable to carry that recommendation into effect, but it
was expected something of the kind shortly would be
adopted.
Mr. H. GRATTAN presented a petition from an indi-
vidual named Henry Hatch, who was confined in Bath gaol.
Colonel DAVIS presented a petition from the Wesleyan
Methodists of Worcester. _ _ .

Mr. BARRON gave notice that he would bring in a
bill for abolishing imprisonment for debt in Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL. asked when would the two clauses
of the Stamp Act be repealed, which were to have been
repealed two months ago.
Lord ALTHORP said it was intended to repeal those
clauses before now ; and they would be before long.
Mr. LITTLETON gave notice that he would move,
that on to-morrow evening the house resolve into a com-
mittee on the Irish Church Temporalities Bill.
Mr. FINN asked whether the amount paid under the
Compulsory Composition Act was made out?
Mr. LITTLETON said that he had expected that the
amount would have been returned before now, but it could
not be long delayed.
Mr. O'CONNELL asked whether the 147th clause was
to be introduced into the Tithe Commutation Bill ?
Mr. LITTLETON was inaudible in his reply.
A BILL TO PREVENT MEMBERS ON TAKING
OFFICE FROM VACATING THEIR SEATS.
Sir R. HERON said, in introducing a bill to the above
effect,te
that
house a
i t wast
any
enh ;
unnecessarygtit he_ a should
sufficienthouldoc tocup stytahtee time
of h
that
the principle of the bill he was bringing before their
notice went to give the people that salutary check which
was indispensable for them to have over the control of their
representatives. It also tended to correct a system that
embarrassed constituencies, and instead of augmenting the
popular power, evaded it entirely, by allowing members to
take refuge in second elections. Now, in a reformed
Parliament, the check that a constituency should have
over their representatives ought to be much • more en-
larged than in an unreformed Parliament. (Hear, hear. )
It was well known that ministers of the Crown were very
seldom, or never, members for popular places. (Hear,
hear.) Owing, however, to the recent changes in
the elective franchise, ministers could never sit for
popular places, as the nomination boroughs were swept
away. (Cries of " No, no, no.") An administration
having the confidence of the whole kingdom might be
disorganised by the opposition of a single borough (Hear,
hear), the opposition being, perhaps, produced by some
local job, utterly uninteresting to the rest of the community.
It was absolutely, necessary to find some remedy for this,
and the remedy he proposed was to do away with the cus-
tqm vacating seats upon acceptance of office. Some
gentlemen objected to this, but had no objection to a mi-
nister changing from one office to another still retaining his
seat. The principle ought to be acted upon more fully.
There was a notable instance of the want of this prac-
tice at present, in the house being deprived of one of
the principal law officers of the Crown. (Hear,
hear. p)
The public could not but be willing that the
different members of Government should be at liberty
to change office as often as might be convenient,, without
being put to the hazard of losing their seats in that house,
by having to go to a new election on every occasion when
a change took place, (Hear,) The offices intended
to carry with them e right of a seat in that
house were not named in the bill, but they were these—
Commissioners for executing the office of Lord High Trea-
surer, Commissioners for executing the office of Lord High
Admiral, the Chancellor of Exchequer, Secretary of State,
the Secretary at War, President of the Police Board.
(Immetios laughter, which continued for some minutes. )
The lion.', gentleman begged pardon, but he wrote so badly
mthatiatehae hmaLdkiffie.cultHyein
mreeadanitngtohis
Ly own hsnd, hence he had
tl
e:- President of the
poard of kndia, the President and Viee-Presidetit

the Board of Trade, the Secretary of the Admiralty.
the Secretary of the India Board, the Master-General of
the Board of Ordnance, the Clerk of the Ordnance, the
Surveyor of the Ordnance, the Storekeeper General, the
Paymaster General of the Forces, the Attorney-General
( Hear, hear) the Solicitor-General, the Chief Secretary
of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the Attorney-General
of Ireland (Hear, and laughter), the Solicitor-General of
Ireland, the Lord Advocate of Scotland, and the Military
Secretary to the Commander-in-Chief. There were two
offices which were obviously not intended to be incleuded,
viz., the stewards of the Chiltern Hundreds. The mntion
of this office excited so much laughter, that we could not hear
the other name. The only other thing to be adverted to, was
the period at which the act was to be in operation. There
would seem to be an obvious impropriety in members of
that house legislating that they themselves should not
vacate their seats on accepting office ; therefore the pro-
position was, that this alteration should take place after the
next dissolution of Parliament.
Mr. BULWER said there was a general objection, on the
part of large agricultural and manufacturing districts, to be
represented by ministers, and therefore lie should object to
their retaining the right of voting on public questions
unless they were representing some popular constituency.
One great objection to the present law was, that it was
calculated to give to the agricultural members an undue
preponderance in the holding of offices, because the con-
stituencies of large towns wished to have all the services 0,
their representatives to themselves, and were reluctant to
see them in office. He thought it well for the house t°
prirdesoefnitnstaantoethoefrthshealpaew. toletxwisats,thienydewe-der,e nalorteas:Nyving
consider whether they were certain that by suffering the
boroughs hosf mthaengynaesptihocenn, the,.
seeds of that very corruption which they had but just goT,
a ques-
tion with many whether out of what the hon. member had
called the legitimate influence of property in snial
go the length of the hon. baronet ; but what he
from the smouldering ashes of Gatton and Old Sarum.
iixf
not all.
noltiehweasreanftoetrprseppraringeduP
The plan he had to propose would meet a part of the diff-
to
should
urge on their consideration was, whether it would not be
well to have as an organ in that house one minister from
each of the great departments who should not be liable to
removal. He should propose that there should be the
home office, the foreign office, the war office,the admiralty,
the colonial office, the India board, the board of trade, and
Ireland; and, as it was expedient to have the law officers
of the crown sometimes present, there might be wisdoin,
if not charity, in admitting the Solicitor or Attorney-Ge-
neral. He should leave the house to choose between his
plan and that of the hon. baronet, and therefore moved a 9
an amendment a resolution declaring " that for the conve-
nience of the public service, and for the promotion of the
public good, it is desirable that one organ of each of the
most influential public departments shall have ac eat I
this house by virtue of his office, but without the vilege
of voting unless returned by a public constituency.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
beet „.
il A message from the lords here interrupted the d - t
The original question and amendment having p
from the chair,
Dr. LUSHINGTON rose to oppose the arnendrneest
as well as the motion. The principle of the prop
,„ _
measure was so unpalatable, as to make it impossible {or
any hon. member to make it acceptable, or worthy of Opt;
port, whatever modification or form it might be made
assume. (Hear, hear. ) It interfered with the In°-
~,t
valuable privileges conferred on the people of this country
by the British Constitution. Were such a measure to re- '
ceive the sanction of that house, the servants of Goveri!'
ment would change their principles with every change 13
the administration, and thus belie the principles they °i
tertained, or professed to entertain, when they obtaineas
th?ir seats, and on the faith of their adhering to them, ts
well as entertaining them at the time, their constituenie
gave them their suffrages. (Hear.) To deprive the
ass
of the constitutional privilege they had so long po
of having a voice in the choice of those intrustd
re nor
management of their interests, would be nothing nte,' they
less than to insult that Reformed Parliament wine':
aect that
had at last obtained. It would be saying, in e'ay elective
the people of England were not fit to exercise that
n them—
franchise which had been recently conferred up
toe
exercise
that they were worse—indeed, more unfit of old
the electoral qualification, than the constitueng. the
Sarum. (Hear, hear, hear.) It would be robbingrf_ar It
people of this country of their best rights. (Ile ti!.., for
would be to tell them, that they were not able to)u,,es.their
themselves in those matters which appertaineftt '
the h°11"
most valuable rights. (Hear.) The speech of the
been
member for Lincoln (Mr. L. satwd se.
in that hou
worthy of any high Tory who bad ever
t to the
(Laughter.) All the hon. member's attachametonm. He
people seemed to have now vanished like
a Phcalamity Ilati
(Dr. L.) would ask what great evil—what e
_eh
happened of late that could induce the house to atl put rite
a measure? Why it had certainly so happenea, a
the eircuni-
man in that house could more Sincerely lament
ed
that au
stance than he (Dr. L.) did—it had so happened
the Ad' !
hon. member was to have been appointed Lord
„, he
. the honour, because . .
miralty, but was obliged to decline .
if he accepted It ,
found he could not secure his re-election
had found that he ,
and another hon. and learnedgentleman.
oiicree to vacate it, in cow"
could not regain
his seat whvoifciiice.r,
He regretted, be re.",
sequence of his
acceptance of
misfortune had befallen the Attorney'
plated, that such a mis
General ; but would any honmember consent to sacrifice
wsitli the
nuity of feeling between hon. members and
that house
hmouemsebeforrOwlhra. their cronse Ito_
nthieeureieghtotsthofe thhoeupsee;pleHoef
(EDngr.lar.
)two
wished
datteo asneeinaceosonto.vtei...,
ents ; and he was perfectly certain that if the rep e..
tnt!A
to and supported those principles which they to
when candidates, they would find the electors filling,
entitled
give them that reception to which their deserts
of the
lives of the people did their duty, and consistently atrelfliesseo'l
them. (Hear, hear.) The effect of the measuresea_
fie
whatever individuals
would best answer their purpose, without egar ss
anyfrtheir fitne
ever to the opinion the country entertained °f
no greater
for office. In his (Dr. Lushington's) opinion of
electors
insult could be offered to the Independent The this
country than the adoption of such ea
fneaeoccurreneerl
complained of was only partial, and of rarethan the e
.1
the remedy would be a great deal worst ember to v°,l°,_
itself. If he could get only one hon.
In
otion and tne
with him, he would oppose both the, In
wvioduulaidsbetoprocure ",..ht
amendment. (Cheers.) ~..,,,,,it Of his
u. , see
Colonel DAVIES would vote for the amenonld n°" a
hon. friend the member for Lincoln. Ile „r_ France
the
what possible evil could result from it. Ili
seats 10
Belgium the members of the government held
„1-
legislature ex officio. • and anie"(.-
Mr. WARD would oppose both the motion. Bich
at pity
ment. He wished to see the link preserved
sl/4ituents.
sent connected hon. members with their
CO'COfar got the
government tdli,ovithsat,
He did not see that France and Belgium had s° lid copy
__,,. to go a
start of us in legislation as that we oug"'
from them.and said
called for, rose iin-
meas. gab
changlten had
Lord ALTHORP being loudly f the greatest it
that he considered the question one °a.. _ ( Hear.), 4
portance both to the house and to the nertr:proposedl
,ttniaie
had been objected to both the
they would have the effect of makin!che
objection
must
principles of the constitution.
ition did not, he
admit, arise from any
against agreeing to either p 1)(.'
hr° siosn of that sort. (Heair• /..
There were two proposition sinher for Peterborough, w.,`„v,
nal motion of the hon. tne with the existing regre,
hon. member wished to do away
office under the Croon at
on accepting .
tion, that a member,d the amend,' telo
his seat , an
must of necessity vacate who ishe" 'f
Lincoln, Vi , nla e
thereon of the hon• member for
der heCroun s"°-r
the acceptor of certain office It
t
id that these li,reat
officio be entitled to a seat. It
aPPre- ehnefore the house—the org !I,
vSas sa
tut on die ~ lie
not sa.7 ioli•
principles of the Constitution ;he could
sitions, if agreed to, would be an infringeme ~, that , ,
thought so. The act which gave a constituency
e,5 oeera
of expressing their opinion on their representativo toot,
~
tavetriyonvaloufahoffileeperiuvnildeegre tuhpeoCnrotwhen,pceoonofeer,er:ede;
I:,,ouotrotithio:),f i
a one very
they ought not to be deprived of,
strong and peculiar circumstances ; but he din „ton e i
vio,- i.e.
that the deprivation would amount to
.01..) Theee„,
constitutional principles. (Hear, bear, nort
been first'
gulation was adopted
,by Parliament f
but was " 5
proposed that no person holding sm., as it 'mice '•
• oircein t
same time hold a seat in the house, toy inc the sea 1.
the appeal to the constituents
that this arrangement would lead to
or
of
_.,d. oi
promise in the reign of Queen Anne.asettietehsandouldraeset these
by. tbkor
expedient ;ir.:orted
was adopted as a sort of comprounsecreet had been.;ce re
the several occasions when the eqe, client
inconvenli.,s eooi
to, there were very few instances oi ortii; (1,0
sulting to either the government, the Mien'
• rds an inif.',,i by 01 f the
Althorp) saw no tendency tow a 0.,05e1 „t ~1
stituency. In the proposition of the hot. .23,noenroetoitt.oeliatiej.
constitution. But in the amendment pra.r..,„le
_.,ear,,
member for Coventry he did see an
07015 ion Itre eon.
constitution. That hon. member's Per
el:
~,,,,e in_l„,ed ",.
to him calcitated to produce a cornplet,e",6o;, oDtl'hat. oL,
stitution. (Hear, hear, hear.) if %old °lion ''''''
choose between the propositions,
the over
(lie°•
whether the inconvenience sustained by .
__ at an;.,,_. aria .
people was sufficient to justify any alteratt,;i:c pas,: gte,
He thought not. (Hear, hear, hear. )
tier
ac
eecPmitYcii
whereby for the future any mernbernauere ~,o,
t..-
_,..14 to 5110,
the hon, member for Peterboroughh;ebsut the clue-stifue'lt °
under the crown, without being n.tit„eets valtia",s,
taking the sentiments of his '
"ander ef "ellhe °ec(oc'
acceptation, was depriving the I
_.stenee not
_ae,,, le
privilege. On the other hand,
sity of such an appeal had on several, lf,irtjoistra was a 5,1
the t!nn. 'e
casions, been an inconvenience to thenii"
in point, but this was a mistake. .t r.,, of office 100 r 10.,
been re-elected after his accepta'which hati,he fit
y ,e riLaseaanesikueerree„,..,:
hcn. member had instanced Sir Joh. _ 11.10%irtinsoeb'rhu3ee ,exf,,:
thrown out on a subsequent occasion,
~„,.ar. ) . '-ster,ce Of
rence to his acceptation of office' Vl'
his acceptation of office, and his abse his /Po t 1
had been felt as an extreme inconvenience
hueJ ai,c1:0,,,;,
point, for
fAorttothrnateyo-ffiGeeenreih•aald, ilionsttlouhbiste:da.enefrorii
t:,,,1
je51,00
Government. (Hear, hear.) pur"fto Alinistt 'll'o'.
the Reform Bill, it had been suggeste
lotion to -bile iti. f.,
would be well to introduce some regu .0 so, ieeeili
been right to a
hen_
it might or might not have b . woe t V
circumstance) under which Ministers

1,,,,

11(1
Jeet
be
bei;

tiea
into
the
Vert,

tlyas impossible to attempt it. (Hear, hear.) . The ques-
fl" "w, however, was, whether the inconvenience which
.iad been experienced by Ministers as yet, only in the single
instance of the Attorney-General—
Lord A liEma
of the Ei rnt
on the opposition benches—There was a
Admiralt '
Lord
, ALTHORP resumed—He did not consider that a
iAta: in
point (Hear heap hear), but he did consider that
patt.oas. au extreme inconvenience to Government that the
, rneY-General f heater);O should not have a: seat in
raameet
nience to G ar'
(He nor was it merely an inconve-
the , . overnment, but it was a very great injury to
ramie interests (Hear, hear) and if the case were to
occur often of a member of the 'Government, whose pre-
re in the house was so essential, being excluded a seat
• re,lae (Lord Althorp) should most readily agree that
ate alteration in that particular law was absolutely called
ILL' a matter of great public importance (Hear, hear) ;
be;4
as he before said, as such an inconvenience had as yet
II only felt by the Administration in a single instance,
titl)wen,ert.er Peculiarly hard upoq them that instance was, he
f0r%„,..-eut that at present there did not exist any necessity
one
-Eieeine. to the hon. member's proposition. He w as
Thel those who had changed his opinion on this point of
uers of the Government having seats in the house.
f ti:e was a time when he was of opinion that , membersl
to° g'e'e_e (4°vernment should be exclu.ded from the house a
d-
sh ‘Dter; he had changed his opinion (Long. continue
i•fl,,°4ts of laughter) • but this change of opinion was not
-p tieed by his ac ' ion to office (Renewed laughter), for
me'a'l altered his mind on the subject before he became a
beraber of the Government. (A laugh.) Hon. mem-
, rheaed to laugh • he could assure them office was no
.' of roses ; he'should not be over-vexed at the oc-
h".4llce of any incident which rendered it necessary for
I 4:et"' 50 out of office. But to the question. The worst
the ho w members of the Government not having scats in
rih, se would be, that such an exclusion must necessa-
b ! tend to lessening their responsibility (Hear, hear);
4 did not mean to say that their legal responsibility was
I,4at, but their positiVe, . actual, and practical responsibility
proseverY great ; for sitting there night after night to
t and defend their measures, and being always liable
o°l. afttaeks from those who thought they did wrong,
'tile r°l° their political opponents, if they were not
r bz. to make
a good defence of their conduct, and
the
answer the arguments or charges against them,
!
1
t: extent to which their character was liable
; atut :Mier, appeared to him the most certain
t jest t,strotigest practical responsibility they could be sub-
be -* (Hear. ) That responsibility, however, would
beigreatly diminished, if the members of government, by
()f rig excluded from the house, were rendered incapable
(HelPlaining or defending their views and measures.
opine() An and learned member had given his
lion.
, n that a member of government vacating hi.s. seat on
e:tePtance of office, need be under no apprehension of not
getting into the house, after a short interval at any rate,
i„,-,".that there were always vacancies occurring ; and if the
-"vidual did not recover his former seat, he might easily
, ke, a seat for some other place. He (Lord Althorp),
I eZweve.r, by no means agreed with the hon. member,
ZO, if on vacating his seat under such circumstances,
ere to be rejected by his present constituents, might
ad it somewhat more difficult than he appeared to
think , to get other constituents to adopt him. Mem-
rs, when rejected under such circumstances by their
ON- ..
t.laier constituents, were very likely to be kept some
tieuae altogether out of parliament (Hear. ) He was ready
4ait:nit his apprehension that, at some future time, the
e.o_tivenience complained of might become so mischievous
he;;'. require some such alteration as that proposed by the
sity, ear.neutber for Peterborough ; and, when such a neces-
pia, °se, he should be one of the first to recommend the
cessit. At present, he repeated, he did not think the ne-
hon, existed, and he should therefore recommend the
proposrnher to withdraw his motion. (Hear.) The
e alt on of the other hon. member (Mr. L. B. ulwer)
ieto ttegether disapproved of ; to send au administfation
the right house, with mere liberty of speaking, but without
‘„,.3rnigehntt oiirrnf vaoting would be to place the members of go-
werePosiiioqy unpleasant and degrading.
•11* nERON, after making a few observations which
Afrulaudible in e gallery, withdrew his motion, ad
• r,. L. BULthWER then withdrew his amendmennt.
m ; HE CASE OF BARON DE BODE.
the
.r* 4. HILL again drew the attention of the house to
beetti Ise of this nobleman, the circumstances of which have
Reett,'requently before the public. , The hon. and learned
Stiffer Tan commented strongly on the continued injustice
tiii,e- yearly value,
lar,„„ e" 13Y the noble baron ••his estates in Alsace of a very
were confiscated by the French at the
soul of the first French revolution. Subsequently a large
this (7„riloney was paid over by the French Government to
stiff ;LITtrY to compensate such English subjects as had
Merieti-4„ °Y the revolution, among whom was specifically
fb',ll,ed the Baron de Bode. Notwithstanding this,not
he (-"aritc had been received by that nobleman, although
the,...r.
._
am I. Hill) could incontrovertibly prove his right. to
such b-ctot as a suffering British subject, and that a specific
ig"ad been paid over by the French Government for the
Ilar,:"e object- of compensating the noble baron. The
herh-4 de Bode was an Englishman ; he was an English
reetiisubject—the son of a German father and an English
Morinex.' The hon. and learned gentleman concluded by
to eg,." That it be referred ton committee of this house,
eumsttne into and report to the house the facts and cir-
„fund reeel: Of the claim of the Baron de Bode upon the
ling Briti eill from the French Government, for indemni-
fiscated b , s subjects for the loss of property unduly con-
, Alr. E‘tlie French Authorities."
'0 :,5 . 4111 T, in seconding the motion, did not hesitate
The at he believed the case had been unjustly decided.
a tre;,. SOLICITOR-GENERAL denied that this was
the -14"11 the hands of the Government, giving a claim to
Raae-arou de Bode. The act relating to all such claims
siihi a Power of appeal from
the decision of the Commis-
liiniers to the Privy Council, whose judgment was to be
ti' So far from the case not having received due atten-
th", and being fully inquired into, it had run through all
1
,-„M odes of investigation that the Act of Parliament
110rised. He would submit to the house, whether a
i;intnittee was a proper tribunal to determine questions of
the that had already received final adjudication? Unless
Zr: ea3e Was a very strong one, this alone would be an
ceti'"..ier to the motion. The hon. and learned gentleman
thele'tided with some observations on the legal merits of
the Ptart, in the form in which it was entertained by
strongt%etv,'ouncil, in the course of which he stated, as a
the father t.' that
at the time the property was ceded by
teeNnii..veavrs :
agthee.Baron de Bode, the latter was only four-
equire , NALOCK said, they were told that it would
coternitt. strong case to justify the appointment of the
They weee• They hail a strong case. ( Hear, her. )
They tb re
.told ago that the present ought to be consistent
the e original claim For the sake of the honour of
elai e"anbotii
whichr m.-ere a surplus_after* paying all the
Nveritts
i• e am, _. there was no difficulty,
.and if there
pluiaeti, eitscarriage with respect to other claims, to their
'tile 110,44 ought that surplus to be applied. The Baron
4 ta 1. was a British subject, born in England, of
the IL'shri_mo ther, his father being a German ; of this
e on de II" doubt. Nor was there any
doubt that the
. ~'„?!fise te i ,_l3de was possessed of some property, which was
,--, had ' oY France. Now, he believed that the baron's
~ hkillittilOt been understood : he would even say, that in
44 the judgment it had not been correctly decided.
14„,eisisniocnon;sihs;'ehnet
L'uquil:3.. e 4,1, there were grounds sufficient. for a fur.ther
Baron de Bode's present claim was said to
with that which he presented to the corn-
iol. dier eotlt let the house not forget that the baron was a
91t elei_ lersed in technical terms. Was he not to have
ttieattiaul fairly decided, because he did not understand the
Pre, ?*':g the terms " heirship" and " remainder ?" He seete(r! his claim according to is best judgment. lie pre-
Pro2t ; told them that he was in possession, that his
am' i'sY Was confiscated because he was a British subject,
The'le claimed his share of the sum paid as indemnity.
ipuedhatchcommisioners asked ,and hey was entitled? He
is father cede
proved the cession.
,ae commissioners decided against hhn
Z" the Privy Council, who affirmed the .judgmlie th red en app i
estate tar'oethilini
t34l,.osider that the Baron de Bode had not any interest in
t°- property at all, The fact was, the baron had a claim
I,7_the entirety of his father's property, but of that the
,Tnissioners took no account. The commissioners per_
aturi,,to act on the deed to which the objection was made,
trant':"ls circumstance alone was sufficient ground for
',ll by', a committee of the house. The deed m as drawn
wk, 4.-t° attorney, on the instruction of the baron, who
Air. itl,t,' tame i4norant of the English language.
ertntruls '4l1-ETON was of opinion that there were
' 1111°0(114e %r grantingi thcommittee, and affording the
ri e co ~ PPortunity of ascertaining how fai Baron de
e-aira e„`....' substantiate his claims. He never heard the
'''t a 11°7°,"rted on the ground that Baron de Bode was
loeieet "it's° subject. On his mother's side, he was of an
suffered much
l'euoi 'ainilY in Staffordshire, and having
e jaar,Y embarrassment, the family had remained some
A,, tittussia.
' t...._Alr, 0-P,` Mxl,taxa would vote for a committee.
for `-'ONNELL was also of opinion that a complete
ti 1-ord- Aa Le°,,Mmittee had been made out. .
.n
It'e 1 HORP - deersood to au
that a certai
that bee n.; "as i • •
li Chad 11 4 en to pens calming upon the fund
e„rd hefoarou de Bode had put in his claim, and had been
pe4ftind ,r,e the commission appointed for appropriating
e.l of '"icii eca •-• a e'ded against bhn. It ap-
Put his le bar_ lirat.,,A!on m
decisiouelaire .(m.complamed that he had not been able to
%%jell .a.ts nn its strongest light, and that therefore. the
out Ili he ehttuti.iu.st ; but surely from 1816, the period at
die, 3 eaSe, claimed, to 1822, he had full time. to make
he -:.aud te„
equal was urged that the baron, being a sol-
(LnstV dne7nted with the forms of law, should not
be -r'z Alth„'t' to the technicalities of legal proof. He
v' aeeed el') did not think this a doctrine which should
'sera e to,
adept,or ell If, through the negligence of legal ad-t
sion° the 3' other cause, the proper forms were no
ee '.Bl;ouid Person so failing (no matter what his profes-
thretainiy
sh_suuffer the same consequences as others. He
tialigrantiC should not accede to this principle, nor yield to
tribY as th"e a committee on these grounds, more es.pe-
bef,:tuaL Tbease Was already decided on by a sufficient
, Tre liu coail ease should be much more strongly proved,
41.1 e Np, . (Laecede to the motion.
' • tiiit ER havine• put the question,
, w°41,4 ask the noble lord if other claims,

which had been shut out on the score of time, had not been
afterwards admitted? If, then, other cases had been ad-
mitted, was it not very hard that this, which was prima
facie so well founded,- should bt, shut out from inquiry ?
His (Mr. Hume's) only anxlyty in urging for the commit-
tee, was to ascertain the truth.
Lord ALTHORP, having been asked the question,
would only remark that there was a distinction between
the cases. A certain period had been fixed for putting in
the claim on this fund, and within the prescribed period
the Baion had applied. His claim had been heard and ad-
' judicated. The others had not applied, being ignorant of
the limits as to time, and the allowance was therefore made.
After a few words from Mr. HILL and Colonel CO-
FOLLY', the motion was agreed to, awl the following com-

Tooke, W.
Ewart, w.
Leonard, T. B.
Palmer, General
Sandon, Lord
Morrison, J.
James, W.
O'Dwyer, A. C.
Pepys, Sir C.
forward his motion

•
mittee appointed
Hill, M. D. Harvey, D. W.
Rice, T. S. Evans, Colonel
Ellice, E. Pollock, F.
Littleton, E. J Wrottesley, Sir .1. B
Lahouchere, H l'endarves, E. W.
Stanley, E. G. S. Guest, J. J.
Goulburn, H. Thompson, P. B.
Godson, R. Noel, Sir G.
Buxton, T. F. Carter, J. B.
EDUCATION IN IRE
Mr. BARRON then rose to bring
with regard to education in Ireland.
An HON. MEMBER (whose name we could not learn)
begged him to withdraw it.
Mr. BARRON could not accede to the request of the
hon. member, as he was desirous of inducing the commis-
siontrs to follow up a more liberal scheme than their now
narrow means would permit. The means for effecting this
would be found in the tithes in Ireland. The contrast be-
tween Ireland and America with regard to national educa-
tion would best exhibit the deficiency of the former coun-
try. Education in America was one in four ; in Norway
and Sweden one in five ; in the Netherlands one in five ;
in Switzerland one in eight ; in the southern part of Ger-
many one in four ; whilst in Ireland it was but one in forty.
This was a lamentable state of things, and to this were owing
many of the misfortunes by which the country was afflicted.
To equalize her with the growing intelligence of Europe,
Ireland would want three thousand five hundred schools ;
whilst, in fact, several parishes, varying in population from
seven thousand to ten thousand, were without any schools.
To furnish the necessary degree of education, a sum much
more than parliament could grant would be requisite ; but
by his plan a single shilling would not be required from
parliament. It was well known that those who received
the tithes were bound by an act of parliament, at this
moment in existence—videlicit, the 28th Henry VIII.—
to keep schools, and on their induction to their parishes
they were bound by oath to act in conformity with this act.
The schools were established to teach English, under
penalties of, for the first offence, 6s. Bd. ; for the second,
20s. ; and for the third, the penalty was forfeiture of the
benefice. Now, without interfering with any parliamen-
tary grants, the money could be thus raised :—There were
747 parishes, in which were no churches ; there were 150
benefices, in which no service had been performed for three.
years past : these would amply supply more than the sum
required, nor would it be in contradiction to the original
intention with which these appointments were made, that
those who held them should undertake the education of the
people. The money would thus revert to its legitimate
purpose, and law, justice, and the interests of the people,
called upon the clergy to make the sacrifice. Now, an
average of 201. on every parish, according to its size, would
leave 4,8001. per annum, and this would be fully adequate
to the purpose. This plan proposed to invest the powers
of governing this fund in the same commissioners who
now existed, authorizing them to borrow, if they
thought fit, such sums as might be necessary for
the first, which of course would be the greatest outlay.
Thus the people would receive education out of funds
clearly their own, their right to which had never been dis-
puted, and of which they had never been deprived by Act
of Parliament. Thus a saving of 44,5001., the sum now
granted for the purpose, would be made to the country.
He would move, " That a select committee be appointed
to devise means for extending the present system of edu-
cation in Ireland, by establishing one or more national
schools in every parish, and a model or Norman school in
each province of that country, without any grant from
Parliament. 1. And therein to inquire whether, in the
first place, sufficient funds might not be derived from the
ecclesiastical tithes in Ireland, without any injury to re-
ligion, to provide for the education of the poor ; and 2dly,
whether such appropriation of a part of this property would
be in accordance with the ancient usage, accompanying its
possession, and with several Acts of the Legislature."
Mr. RICHARDS seconded the motion. He agreed
with his hon. friend that the revenues of the church could
not be more beneficially applied, nor in a manner more
consistent with the objects for the promotion of which they
were originally bestowed.
Mr. LITTLETON thought that the absence of those
hon. members who usually took "great interest in all sub-
jects affecting the welfare of Ireland, might be taken as a
sufficient indication that they did not think such a mea-
sure expedient at the present time, or at least in its pre-
sent shape. (Hear, hear.) He was the last man not to
admit the great advantages which a liberal system of public
education would confer on Ireland ; nor was there any
question which he would support with greater spirit or
with greater zeal, than the system of national education in
Ireland introduced by his right hon. friend near him (Mr.
Stanley), which already had exercised a most powerful
and beneficial influence in that country. One hundred and
forty thousand children were now educated in these schools
(Hear, hear), and he believed that the steps already taken
were only preparatory to more extended measures for the
diffusion of its advantages. He (lid not wish to call on the
house to give any opinion on the question. He thought
it could be more advantageously discussed to-morrow,
when the grant to the Irish education commission would
be proposed ; and he believed that, under all circumstances,
he should best consult the feelings of the house, by moving
the previous question.

Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR said the absence of
Irish members might be accounted for by the fact, that the
hon. member's motion was impracticable, and could not
be carried into effect. (Hear, hear.) The motion was pre-
mature. The hon. member for Waterford had better have
waited till the government grant was proposed. He should,
therefore, vote against the motion.
Mr. BARRON attributed the absence of Irish members
on his motion to a very different cause. It was because
he voted only for men when he thought them right, and
against them when he thought them wrong. ( Hear. )
It was because he would not suffer himself to be influenced
by factious motives. (Hear.) Whenever, therefore, he
came there to fight even in the same cause for which
they fought, he was not supported by them, because
he would not belong to their faction. (Hear.) Not
wishing to run counter to the sense of the house, he would
withdraw his motion.

Colonel VERNER moved for copies of correspondence
between the government in Ireland and the very Reverend
the Dean of Tuam, relative to the dismissal of that gentle-
man from the commission of the peace in August, 1833.
Granted.

FOREIGN NEWSPAPERS.

Mr. VERNON SMITH moved that the house should
to-morrow resolve itself into committee on the Postage
Acts, with a view of introducing certain regulations in the
transmission of foreign newspapers to this country.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether there was any in-
tention of consolidating and simplifying the Postage Acts ;
at present it really was very difficult to ascertain the regu-
lations, they were so spread about in various statutes.
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that no such intention
existed this session, nor, indeed, did it appear to him to be
necessary. The complaint of the hon. member was not
now applicable.—Motion agreed to.
Mr. N. FITZ SIMON was proceeding to move for cer-
tain returns, when
Mr. GILLON moved that the house be counted, and
only 21 members being present, the house adjourned at 11
o'clock.