The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-21 00:00:00

Government with regard to this Bill. The letter of the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had been regarded by oaf
Protestant in the kingdom as an indication that he inte
lee..
to do his duty to the country in protecting its reels
When, however, the Noble Lord brcught forward a meneurey
it turned out to be a milk-snd-water affair, and did net h.e.
any means bear out the declarations contained in his
ce,lr
brated letter. What followed? Some Hon. Mein cash
threatened the Noble L rd with a civil war in Ireland; a 9,0
in consequence of that absurd threat, the Bill was reduced
a wretched remnant, and would have no effect whatev elf
.ee.
preventing the assumption of power by then Roman Po nle..
He (Mr. Knox) wished to take that oppty of
thelltqr...
il'i,',
dieting an assertion made the other evenint by
Member for Dublin made the
that leer WAS pe__
fectly icdifferent as to the measures that might be tee eriel
this subject. He could only say that the Protestalifeeew
Ulster were as angry at the Papal aggression as thee' ue„t
were at the conduct of the Noble Lord, who, with he
sieeleeee
of a mint rity of that 11. use— (A laugh)—held the re ea
goverment. He hoped that Ireland would be included,ir,
any measure that might be carried through the breachHot?el`
he considered that the omission of Ireland would be a
of the Acts of Union.
Dr. POWER thought that setae of the speeches fief b 54
been delivered by supporters of the Bill were better stiet:eaee
the atmosphere of Exeter-hall than to a calm and 73eYteer
sionate deliberative assembly. The question was lyre., in
the Pope. by the creation of a Roman Catholic biers .7 .he
this country, had invaded the supremacy of the Cro.Wnec,: of
rights of the Established Church, and the indeeenayeuieenee
the nation ; and, unless that could be shown, by theeereesiself
of clear and indisputable facts, he for one would f _ea.
justiff.d in denouncing the present Bill as a persecutiogarand
sure—(Hear)—and one that ran counter to the greoments
glorious principles of religious toleration. If the erg, mots
of the Hon. Member for Warwickshire were tube
_eeo,
against the Papal aggression they were still rariitholie
ments against the very existence of the strop.Z,ereligion in this country. The Pope was charge: ' ,se
notice
deavouring to assume territorial jurisdiction in tb's
The Noble Lord had taken care in his speech not tei
sad a
the broad distinction that existed between a e_
foivri Oxford,
spiritual jurisdiction ; but the Hon. Member
dexterousli
seeing the course the argument was taking,
between, 3
changed the ground, and drew a distinction , a dii.
spiritual and an ecclesiastical jurisdiction. That such
tinction might be made in the case of a Church not governed
._,,id
by a hierarchy he admitted; but that the distinc io„ieero"of
be drawn in the case of a Church the leadingePri7 va his
•
whose discipline was that it should be gevercgatholic knew
erarchy, he utterly denied. Every Roman . ..sn, ne
and believed that the Pope had no civil jurisdivictiitohstsciding
or auth rity within this realm, and yet,
°t
Catholic igen-
hers of Parliament to that effect, they
the oath or declaration taken by all Roman d that thei
that the
held a divided allegiance. He was not awaehurch bed
supremacy of the Crown over the Protestaat.
0..,,b it bad
ever been questioned by Roman Catholics, tn "e of the
been denied by some of the bishops and illartil
e ear,
hear.)
clergy and laity of the Established Church.--
toot of the
A hierarchy was essential to the proper
delel(l);ierarchy hsd
Catholic Church ; the appointment of that „of such sr
not been exercised by the Crown ; and the ripe Catholic
the
pointment rested in the recognised head of , _;eided s
Church, to whom the membe•s of that Churen..et'hey pre-
ready obedience. If, then, by passing
this
Bill,their ecclesiase
were to
vented the Roman Catholics from perfecting dtoleratioo,
tical organisation, what became of their boaete
_wined?
and of the freedom of conscience they so loudly era' ae sg
Even supposing the act of the Pope to have been he steal
gression, could it for a moment be supposed the
have endeavoured to support that aggression
Hon. Member for the West Riding had stated th t 1"
two °thee
naval force of the Pope consisted of a gunbrig
n__ was
sr
vessels of war; they knew, too, that his Hob
teo"esupposst
this moment supported by foreign bayonets ; an out nil
therefore, that he would have attempted to lorry. iron,
measures by force was a perfect absurdity. The Nobel,:to oe,
ber for Bath (Lord Ashley) had intimated that, on
_lie_ suci
casion, three great Catholic powers, France, S,l3' "eeould
Austria, gave their aid to the Pope, but that ties tot
assist him in any designs upon this ccuntry.was an.he Noble
could only present itself to the romantic mind of ' pothole;
Lord. If the measure of the Pope had rendered thahs'y were
clergy of this country more independent than t
.0.
sewed
before of the Queen and the Government, if it bed I,"eione,
by faorc!,.?e ;rob;
with the allegiance they owed to the Sovereign of %lights
ther
_irs eeed
or had dimini-hed the revenues, or interfered with tno
might
of the Established Church; then, he admitted,
have been some cause for alarm ; but none of those reeeeehereh
been produced. The bishops and clergy of the Catholle_etiegle
in Ireland had at an early period maintained a long eee'siog
with the Pontiff with regard to the canon er,origet
to the observance of Easter, and had openly
to levy money in that country; and he believed it weesitf, ea
denied e„ that
resistance which formed the pretext to. a Roman reeendet
Englishman by birth, for handing Ireland over to the tender
the
mercies of Henry 11. He might observe, also, tbatee'Nete.
earlier days of the United States, when the Puritan. Too of
England persecuted the Episcopalians, and the Qerto the
Pennsylvania persecuted the Presbyterians, they fieuost to
Roman Catholic colony of Maryland, which was the first
proclaim the great principle of religious toleration.-- Voreited
How was it that there was such apathy now in the.
coatite
States upon the subject, which created so much exte dn
here? They had their archbishops and bishops, AlO 01118
tinual additions were made to the number; and to not
heard of no excitement there. But then they v' ,eallY
shackled with an established church, which was PerPe. the
trembling for its existence, and at every reform rasi:red
cry of " The Church in danger !" If it was inchdenf)e. the
its garment was rent, it was torn not so l'' /0
Roman Catholics as by those within its own Pe eii this
truth, but for " Puseyistn," we should not have he r the
" Comedy of Errors" enacted in Downing-street, net
comedy of " Much Ado about Nothing" uPeeo
many plattorms —( A laugh.) Some gentlemen w' thetaken part in this debate, seemed nut to be aware this
tholic doctrine was immutable, but that the discipline Brent
would be required in a country like this would be d'ieeer,)
from that required in such a country as China.—( Hear, se tee
It was surprising that the Noble Lord at the head e; awe
Government, who had read history so well, had not er see
from it this conclusion, that penal laws were not the iiiitilbild
by which an obnoxious religion could be checked. feeei
been tried in Ireland for three centuries and failed. leee.
Bill would not effect in this country the object inters 0
As regarded Scotland, it was palpable injustice, drawitrelt
it did, a distinction between the Protestant Episcopal q. 06
and the Roman Catholic Church, both of which stood 'a 'es,
same relation to the dominant Church there. The col ens
it was said, were not included in the Bill, because the Clue did
ecclesiastical supremacy did not extend to the cola
direction
it extend to Scotland ?—(Hear.) But in every d!re„ the
the Bill involved difficulties. In Ireland it was recall;7' sot
Catholic Associatian into existence. If the House f;,,ili tr,e•
wish to make Ireland the " difficulty" of every Mffl-410,0w
tion, and to keep there a standing array of at leas' 0 the
men, they should reject a Bill so fraught with clinger
peace and tranquillity and best interests of the countrYtdoese
The moment the Hon. Member sat down, at least $
gentlemen rose to address the House.
The SPEAKER called upon theC
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND, who proceeded to say
he could not consent to confine the scope of thieeell''ctieresel
to all the narrow limits to which the Honourable,„"eaurate.
mond's) opinion was, that the question the
who had just sat down would restrict it. His (eel.' had to
House 00030
discuss was nothing short of this, whether thecioe the
Catholics should remain a tolerated sect hulejteer tl'el
spiritual dominion of the Queen, or w" spiri° 1
Queen should be a licensed heritic under the eeer.'s
Parliament had to settle whether they
dominion of the Pope.—(Loud cries: of " Ileahave Joe,
dominion ..-d
third of the population of this kingdonet _ ,overo_e,
pretext of " religious developments." to nem!. (Welt
by a law unknown t• the two remaining thired superl!,
hear)—a law which was considered paramount:
couotrPor
to the law, common or statute, that governed the
t
debt the
(Hear, bear.) Nor would this night, or this
_. for t,.
this Bili, or a hundred such, settle the oueetvileo"nee not
rle.;
Pope bad raised a storm in this country that /Bear, he be
quiet again in the lifetime of any present. e
pope, erfuie.t,
Now, before coming to the main body of the
wai(nlltiliserthtu.
hillreesrruu tMhhol lel
superiorh I lad ddo
pecially those " philosophers" who affected neihet 'fig° the
:bt :ebbe
eneuaust pi
sdua tlltli
hki nee
attnhobaeos
gfatryoo itio art:war
.:sicteviebte°hibue:srol!cigitrnet labdagisP;l:iefi: Po:,
dog ? (Laughter.) What signifies
to Protestant,take
th e i r orow
n Protestantcou course."—
e Hear,
, r:ehPat.iin.tsdo lea
so n;
ttvriad ;DI!
that these
and laughter). Stand aloof from it alt)- It Wee a • 'or
years ago; they condescended
from that House specially giving
" philosophers" did not tef
three
from their height, and they did meddle w"„ whY theYoth
teen:
jilt°, trio
jul,
pope, tbat I"rilere•
serted a clause which justly offended the alter senteee *
they would not have the Pope send an " e' lea' i
Why, the Pon i an .. ae ;39,
_ j'Vit
• e' -"teed of seieding
piece of himself-0 Hear, hear,' and a laugbtreo
ed to 1., ell
corpx-is.—(Hear, hear.) But we were ilidilosoPhere le to
gentleman for showing us the value of " Phil
the
Vergleest
L sublunary matters; and whoever had tea were tee ,eir.
fit to
might know that of all men
, theTiear. ) tie
tto guide us oil such an occasion—( near' w tlee. olio
Drummond) wished to warn the House heolooe (At did
implicitly upon anything asserted by„a Rre Ile eele
011
Member. (Laughter, and a cry of
a bit more esep did
not say that the Hon. Member would be anything %ear.)
of wilfully deceiving the House, or saYineger.,e(flettween
as a reo
not believe to be true, than any other Men e ,
'elineretieee Throb.
But still when a question arose as to the ona flooeser en-
the Court of Rome and the See of Reenreeie eifeen'eat for
Member asserted one thing, another lionctge'reor Dublin
other. He had applied to the Hon. MerngenlbBr ibrevidenee
information, when up started the Been. jog tO
that witness
with his particular explanation. On roofer food
lie Court of
given by Dr. M'Hals on that subject, %lee ohst, man CA"
to say, that " the doctrines and rill: ci',., of t Roman art of
tholic Church, which distinguished be the
Rome were not the doctrines or princiP `town the see oe
f out
and the Church of Rome.
eeerrnd caballing, Wlens
..
might be the scone ot' s-- 3 of the Roman C 5 the
affecting, at the same time,the decrees _ . wieentare.,,nteLit
lie Church." How, after tbat, could
eler_uriee the nurse
what he had? It was alleged that for c fe._ begged
to.
_etit
of Rome had undergone no change ; rut laucilLged lveira,
from those who asserted that, for it badose of gi`:;ir'Agb,
every century, and always for the Puri,' her;,, indeet" 'ect.
creased power to the priests. The philosoP
__.ee le this; sisterub) of
say, " We ought to have nothing to do ewilole a afro'
They might be answered in the way in w' measures eln'tee
Bonaparte addressed the senate when soraege had Baia ,
1, Frolic'
in g religion were being brought forWerdeety of te°. they
Court 0 ...
Catholic religion was that of the rneJ°" e an anode would
nation ; and if they abandoned so powertie
__ve who 00
.4
would be at the mercy of the first impious lot' what w
s,
wish to convulse France. Now that wo7taite ineasu.rei
inevitably take place in Ireland if they did 13 aid, indeed, tn.,
to prevent such a state of things. 11 vies tl'ajoyir what ariel
the Pope had no army. Be should like to
eta...e(l-leer, floe
the l'ope had ever had for the last 1,800 y?ee med yet be bad
laughter.) Where was his great arneY
le one for centuriesos
contrived to do as reto h mischief in e.ureh laughter) tee
any other gentleman ever did.—(llear, an had ever cello
still, however, had all the arms by which he
hanged; vi else
the mischief; and all his designs still neower of ,
England had thrown away her arms, and hid no pope It Wel
sistance. It is asked, Where is the Wade . (les
..ct, doe
stem. How came i e loud
for the benefit of au hierarchical sy
d'nal? It wee - 10
however, that the Pope seat a car i of tI. _
since we had any _, tDo
said that it was only a spiritual and conscientious 11., theo,
time, fortunately fur us, _
(Laughter.) To alined:se,
sort of gently amongst us. 1 ' the
le ' persons was held )) ioe
a King of France, resse,eies ,
liitgli t
wouldinwbheicel
only
that
necessaryc_ss ot
t.. 0.
of the Popes to.
a cardinal of the name of Dui OS
the case of a dissolut , tura 1
county and was a reputeu nit. expo
who resided in that co , refer to a brief letter, fr.o,,n t,f,,
, nee to 1„
d The Pope wrote to the King of r l'a pass fib's
the king ono who Ole
effect that he could not send away a cardinal,
.eeth i
of one of the Bourbons, but whom it was proposed to oes
• to the law, and that it was not cousietene 75aeree
perior
zeal which he ought to have for the maintaining wee ,
-thiruor
to establish here. Such was the law which one
,_ tear, fej
persons and things. Such was the law which th' , Oft he
peop'e asked to maintain, and that more for prien7,,,e bad
laymen. —(No.) The question with the Court of owieeeeal
been always that of priest and layman. Once the eY, to
th effe
members of the Church, ey were no longer subjeew leo Ole
other power—they were independent of the Kinglio Wl*
dawned his eternal salvation if he interfered Wl'e