The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-23 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 1833.

(No. 12,673.)

EAST INDIA HOUSE, APRIL 22.

(Continued from our Paper of yesterday.)
Mr. HANKEY, continued—Now what was called public
opinion might be traced to two sources, first, the clashing of
interests ; another was the course opinions seem to have
taken of living under the direction of a new science that
had lately sprung up, but which was at present in so
crude a state that it was impossible to place much
reliance upon it.—(Hear.) The first elements of that
science were still unsettled—(Hear)—the leading parties
to it not being agreed upon its general principles, but tilers
seemed to a general principle pervading the whole that
all those institutions which at present exis•ed were
extremely bad.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He thought
the subject now under the consideration of the Court was
too important to be htz irded upon the plea of public opi-
nion.—(Hear.) In his opinion, public opinion ought
never to be the guide of a well constituted government
further than its own conviction of propriety and justice
would bear it out.—(Hear, hear.) If there was any duty
more important in Government than another, it was
to know when to be guided by public opinion, and when
to resist it—(Hear, hear)—to know when public clamour
was based on justice, and when it departed from it.—
(Hear, hear.) He saw in the present President of the
Board of Control that seat of justice to which he was
sure the proprietors would not appeal in vain.—(Hear,
hear ) The name of Grant was a tower of strength in the
cause of justice, and he looked forward to the ulterior
arrangements that he might make with a certainty that
they would be settled, having the interest of the Company
in view. He was glad to see the course Hnn. Proprietors
had taken in the resolution which had been first propo•ed,,
and he was sure the Court would be ready to sicr,fice all
personal consideration, provided the subsequent arrange-
ments were such as to enable the Company to discharge
their duties satisfactorily to others and to themselves.
On looking at the influence that Court had over India,
he must say, and that. without fear of contradiction, that
the country had benefitted much by the rule of the Com-
pany. The providence of God which had been vouchsafed
in p tat times, imposed upon the Court the necessity of seeing
that in any future legislation upon the subject, the interest
of that peonle should be well taken care of. In taking
upon themselves the future Government of India, the
Directors were taking a most important and responsible
duty; he, therefore, trusted that in their future dealing
with the Government, they would not suffer their
hands to be tied—(Hear)—or in any way shac-
kled. He supported the original resolutions, because
he considered that they left a wide-enough space open for
future negociations ; he did not agree with them alto-
gether, but he thought them, as a whole, the best that
could be adopted by the Court. He could assure the
Court of Directors that, if they consented to
have their powers limited in any degree whatever, thq
would not be supported by that Court.—(Hear, hear. )
He therefore trusted that they would take it as an instruc-
tion from that Court, that in the Government of India

they should be left free as at present. He trusted also,
that while the Directors took care of their own powers.

they would not be forgetful of the interests of the Cour
of Proprietors.—( Hear, hear.) The two Courts must be
united—they must have a community of interests, and
they must present one front to his Majesty's Government.
The confidence of the people of India was much firmer
placed in that Court than in any other body, and
as it was a mere empire of opinion, any change would
he attended with disastrous effects. There were two
ways by which that country would be benefited
by education and a free translation of the Scrip-
tures. With regard to education, he, for one, was
not afraid of it ; it enlightened the mind, and enlivened
the understanding. Let his Majesty's Government give
protection to all classes in India, and have a due regard
to the interests of the Company, and they would make a
firm and lasting bond of union between the two countries;
besides which they would be the better able to prevent
an irruption into India of airy foreign power—(Heir,
hear, hear)—for, besides other considerations, they were
hound to look at the possibility of an invasion of I dia by
foreign nations. He looked at the growing state of civi-
-1 zrtion in that country, as a mean• of seeming it against
all such dangers. He had read with much pleasure the
p per written by Mr. Tucker, one of the Directors, and
he hoped his Majesty's Government would pay the
attention that was due to the enlightened views of that
Gentleman. At all events, he hoped the Court of Di-
rectors woul i maintain their own independence, and the
independence of the Proprietors.—( Hear, he ir, hear.)
On the grounds he had stated, lie begged to give his sup-
port to the original resolutions.
Mr. So wvasr, in re erenee to the Report of the Corn..
',lure of the House of Commons, with which these pro-
positions originated, contended that the odium which had
been cast upon the Right Hon. the President of tne Board
of Controul, should be transferred to that Committee. It
had been truly s id, that his commercial and territorial
property were equally liable to pay their territorial debt.
Lord Melville, and the late Lord Castlereagh after him,
had stated the same clang ; so much so, that, in 1801,
the former urged the Proprietors to raise ten mi lions
upon the whole of their property, in order to diminish
their territorial debt. That proposition was after wards
again urged by the late Lord Castlereagh. It was
necessary that this Court should know the truth, and
thereby be enabled to judge of the precise situation in
which they were placed, He thought that the proposi-
tions now made by the Government, bore on the face of
them a want of equity. He certainly agreed with one
assertion, that the profits of the Company were a tax o❑
the people of India as truly and as equitably as if it had
been fixed by an Act of Parliarnent—(Hear)—but he
asked whether they had not an equivalent for that tax ?
He knew also that this country owed India a large debt
for the many millions we had taken from it for the last 70
years ;—and he asked whether the Company had not fur
a long time Fast been endeavouring to transfer capital and
wealth to India. He believed the Right Hon. the President
of the Board of Control had the welfare of India sincerely
at heart, but he (Mr. Sullivan) did not believe the secu-
rity dieted to the Company for the payment of the divi-
dends was sufficient. If a new India Bill were proposed
he hoped a clause would be introduced providing that in
the failure of funds there should be an issue of Exchequer
Bills.—(Hear, hear.) If Hon. Proprietors would look
back to the discussions in the House of Commons in 1813,
on the policy of the exclusive monopoly of the China trade,
they would find Mr. Canning and Lord Grenville de-
nouncing the exclusiveness of that trade. He would
much rather than the resolutions which had been pro-.
posed, see the Court unite in unanimously expressing
their opinion, that the most vital points of the ar-
rangement would be to discover the real condition of
India. What was the actual state of that country ? Was
it not true that the great body of the people were wretch-
edly poor?—(Hear, hear.) Was it not true that the
officers of the Company were inefficient to administer the
affairs of India?—( Hear, hear.) Was it not true that
the Zemundars behaved in the most cruel manner to the
inhabitants of that country ; if they were not so, the
statements of Warren Hastings and Lord William Bentick
were without foundation. The people of Bengal were in
a state of beggary, and he called upon the worthy Di-
rector opposite to state whether the permanent settle-
ment that had been established there, had not been
productive of the most direful consequences.--(Hear.)
He looked upon the arrangement that had been proposed
to be productive of four results-Ist, an economical go-
vernment ; 2d, that the great mass of the civil adminis-
tration of the country would drop into the hands of the
Company ; 3d, that there would be more discriminating
duties ; and, 4th, a full development of the resources of that
country.—(Hear.)
.---- TUCKER, Esq. said he did not intend to make a
speech, but as he had been called upo❑ by the Hon. Pro-
prietor, to say whether the permanent settlement was the
most dire in its consequences of any measure that had
ever been introduced, and that it was, in fact, one of the
greatest curses, to that he said most emphatically "No."
Had the lion. Gentleman confined his observations to
Fort St. George, he would have said " Yes." He was
before the Court and the British public, and would be
judged by that document which was now on the table of
the House.
I IMr. HOME said that no man who wished for the wel-
fare of India but must have listened with regret to the
documents read by the Hun. Proprietor. He confessed,
however, that he could not agree with him
in his conclusions, for the result of his speech was merely
this, that when the revenues of India fell off, so that the
dividends could nut be paid, Government should issue
Exchequer bills in order to make them good. Then as to
the other question, whether the Company had any com-
mercial assets or not, he considered was not a question
then before the Court, indeed it would be a loss of time to

1111=6
consider it. He had always looked at the Indian question
not as one of dividends, but with an eye to the wealth,
prosperity, and happiness, of the petiole of India, nor
had he ever been backward in stating his opinion when
he saw the Directors acting in such a manner as, in
his opinion would be likely to lead to the loss of the country.
The Hon. Gentleman had also read of many abuses that
were said to exist in India—hut did he think that was the
only country where abuses existed; he would call upon
him to look at home, when probably he would find as
great even here. It was in the nature of delegated au-
thority that abuses should creep in, and they existed in
every colony that now was or had ever been. He agreed
with the Hon. Gentleman, that it was the duty of the
Company, or the Government, if they should govern India,
to remove every abuse, and relieve every burden
from the country, and that it was now time
when India should not be a mere stepping-stone
for the aristocracy of this country.—(H ar, hear.)
If Hon. Proprietors would but read the evidence given
before the Committee they would see th it nothing: had
been left undone to ascertain the true condition of India.
--(Hear.) India had a claim for a government upon the
most economical principles, and for the employment, of the
natives in Government offices.--(Elear.) There had
been great, culpable neglect hitherto, and it was likely
to continue so long as the control was left in hands
which had been three times changed in about
the same number of years, and which persons were
wholly ignorant of that country.—(Hear, bear, bear.)
England was a considerable debtor to ladia ; but, on the
other hand, that country was now in a very different state
than formerly, when it was the scene of rapine, plunder,
and robbery. He did not blame the Court of Proprietors
for all the evils which now existed in that country, but
he blamed the narrow-minded policy of England towards
it. He hoped, however, that it would have the benefit of
a better and more extensive policy.—(Hear, hear.)—(The
Honourable Gentleman proceeded at some length to
recapitulate what had transpired prior to the re-
newal of the last Charter, and with reference to the
religion of the natives of India, he said he was strongly
opposed to any coercive interferent'e with them.) He
had also observed that those who changed their religion
seldom made good citizens.--(Hear, hear.) However,
from education there was nothing to fear, for he was
confident a Government had less to apprehend from an
educated than an ignorant people.—( Hear, hear.) In
considering the changes now proposed to be made, he
thought they should contrast India as at present, and In-
dia as it was seventy years ago. He considered that
much national benefit had accrued to England from her
connexion with tnat country, and looking at the subject
with the views he entertained of the advantage
that had accrued to the nation, through the Com-
pany's exertions, be certainly thought they were not
treated with becoming liberality.—(Hear, hear.) He
had always thought that the character of Sovereign was
incompatible with that of merchant, and that it would be
conducive to the C imp iny's interests to separate them,
but in surrendering their cl lima on the territory of
Bengal, he thought that a good case for compensation
to a large amount would be made out if they could but
find a court to try it.--(Hear.) He did not ask for
excessive liberality, but he wished for justice.—(Hear.)
He thought the evidence that had been given on this sub-
ject deserved far more consideration than the Board of
Controul hid given it—that Board had only taken six
months to consider that which others had taken years.—

(Hear.) He was clearly of opinion the time had come
when the Company must yield their exclusive trade to
China. He, for one, would never consent that the capital
should he employed in carrying on that trade as a Company
exposed to the competition of others.—(Hear.) Another
objection he had to the Company carrying on the China
trade was, that he did not like to see Sovereigns acting as
merchants.—(Hear.) If Government could govern India
better than the Company. let them do so, he would say,
but his experience had taught him the reverse; and, for
the proof of that, he would only refer to the Crown colo-
nies.—(Hear.) He conceived that it would be to the
advanta4e of England and India. that the Government of
the latter should rest with the Company.—(Hear.)
thought it was the duty of the Comp itry to take care that
the n dives of India should not be put to the expense of a
shilling that could he avoided, hut, at the same time, be was
riot prepared to say that the territory of India ought not to
bear the hurthen of the debts contracted to support it
under a proper government ; he would as soon have the
security of India to pay the dividends as that of Englrnd.
Toe great objection in his mind to the plan proposed by
Ministers was, that all real man regiment of the ffors of
India would be taken from the Company, and given to
the Board of Coutroul. The order mielt nomin illy go
from that House, but virtually from the Board of Con•
trout, ever) officer of which was liable to removal on the
change of an administration in this country. What se-
curity hat the Company for the good government of India
by that Board ? None. Until that Board was a perma-
nent one, and until its offier rs were fit for their situations,
it was impos•ible that the propositions of Ministers could
be carried into effect without the worst results. Then,
with respect to the controul of Parliament, he was not
much disposed to trust to that. He never could consr-nt to
the Board of Controul having the power to appoint gover-
nor, and he: would not give five farthings for all East India
stock if a certain Noble Lord (as it was rumoured in the
papers) should he appointed Governor-General of India.
He would say rather than fall into the Government plan
upon their terms, he would at once divide what they had.
They were threatened with being carried into the Court
of Chancery, unless tl ey agreed with their views, but he
would rather do that than do so, for there there was a judge
sworn to do justice, but on the other hand the very men
themselves were to be the judges. It was a threat that he
would give no heed to, for he did not yet despair of get-
ting justice in this country by an appeal to the people. He
did not think they did any credit to the Government, nor
were they to be feared by the Court. As the debt of
India was not more than two years revenue, he did not
despair to see her, by a wise and economical Government,
yet rise free as air. He could see no reason why they
should not be allowed to place such a part of their own
assets as a security for their dividends, otherwise they could
have no security. He believed the Government did not
mean to act dishonestly, but were merely acting on an
erroneous ground. Let the Court, therefore, say "We
will so far conform to the wishes of the people as to give
up our trade—we will give up our character of merchant—
but let us still have such power as may give a little con-
troul over our dividends." Had he been able to attend on
the first day of the debate he would have offered a short
set of resolutions, which embodied the principal points in
his speech.—(They were put in, and the Hon. Gentleman
gave notice that at a proper time he would move them as
an amendment.)
The CHAIRMAN said the question before the Court had
been so well discused, that he had but little to say upon
it. He would offer his opinion, then, merely upon the
present situation of the question. First, as to the trade
with China—that was a qnestion over which they
had no controul, and was one which entirely
depended upon the wisdom of Parliament. It had been a
good means of obtaining remittances from the India trade,
and there was no doubt but that the Company bad well
supplied the country with tea without risk—how far that
would be effected when the trade was opened, they were
not the judges. After all that had been said, there was
still great difficulties in the matter—they were called upon
to make a compromise, and the Court of Directors had
entered into that question, and given it their best cunsi-
deration, and that in as short a time as possible. They
were called upon to give up the whole of their assets, and,
in return, they were to have an annuity of ioi per cent.
secured on the revenues of India. He die not consider that
security as good enough, but he was afraid it would be too
much to ask that the Coame-ay should rule India for 40
years, which was the length of time that the annuity wal
to continue ; their good government and publicity were the
only securities that were now in the plan. It was pro-
posed that there should be a guarantee fund of six mil-
lions, which, at the end of the 40 years, should be in-
creased to twelve millions, which would form a good and
p ri
the
of)e the,
further
and
sufficient guarantee and security for the Company. He
was of opinion that the Court should agree with the
lotionsreso-
Governmentr tn d Gallantaarrangement.n was
not
a agreed General,
e If e
dbefore which
to,e
theor
left
sotmh
question o
pn for 24th
Ap
answer returned, the Government of India would be in
the hands of the Ministers —the Company would have that
house, with six millions of money which was in the flank
—there were sixty-lour millions of lbs. of tea in the ware-
houses, which he calculated would bring other six mil-
lions—there were other things beside—but that was the
situation in which they were now placed. Notwith-
standing that power, and they were not powerless, let
them yield to the Parliament, ae the Company always had

done, and go on with the compromise, which must be on
a fair and liberal scale, otherwise it would meet with his
most determined opposition —(Cheers.)
Mr. SALES said a very great deal of time had been
wasted ; he would therefore move a resolution at the pro
per time, leaving the whole question to the wisdom of the
Directors, and if they could not agree with the Govern.
men. then, that the question should be left to the wisdom
of ParFament.
Sir Joinsr MatcorAt said he was very sorry that on ac
count of ill health he had been obliged to absent himself
from the Court during the discussion. He was still of
opinion that his set of resolutions answered the end he in-
tended to answer by them, viz. to show that the Court of
Proprietors had confidence in the Court of Directors.
Toe original resolutions were then read, as also the
amendment of Mr. R. Jackson.
The latter Gentleman then rose and withdrew his
amendment.
A lone desultory conversation then took place, and

Mr. SALOMAN also withdrew his amendment.
Sir CHARLES FORBES then rose arid addressed the
Court at great length, but the Court having been cleared
when the motions were about to be put, we were placed
at such a distance as precluded us from hearing the lion.
Baronet.
Mr. SUEPPARDS amendment was then withdrawn.

Mr. SALES amendment was then put and lost.
After about an hour's very strong discussion, during
which an adjoin nment was moved twice, another motion
of the same kind was agreed to, and the Court rose at a
few minutes past six o'clock.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HO USE OF COMMONS. APRIL 22.

The SPEAKER took his seat at five o'clock.
Mr. Preston appeared at the Bar from the East India
Howe, with copies of the regulations of the Governor and

Council of Fort St. Get.rge.
New writs were ordered to be issued for the western
division of Worcester, in the room of the Hon. T. E.
Foley, now Lord Foley ; and for Inverness district of
Burghs, in the room of Colonel Baillie, deceased.
Mr. L. HODGES presented a petition from Gravesend,
in favour of the Gravesend Improvement Bill.
The Marquis of CHANDOS gave notice that in the
Committee of Supply, on Friday next, he would move that
in any reduction of taxes, the condition of the agricultural
population be taken into consideration. The Noble
Marquis then moved that Mr. Pelham and Mr. F Palmer
be aoded to the Committee on the Beer Bill.—Ordered.

Colonel LOWTHER presented a petition from a person
in Dublin, against the Dublin and Kingston Railway Bill.

.Referred to the Committee on the Bill.

Mr. O'CONNELL postponed his motion relative to the
state of the city of Kilkenny until next Friday.
An Hote. MEMBER (name unknown) asked the Right
from. the Vice President of the Board of Trade whether

Government had the question of pilotage under their con-
sideration with a view of bringing forward some measure.
Mr. P. THOMSON said the subject bad been under
the consideration of Government, and it had been referred
to the Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, to the Trinity
Board, and to Lloyd's. He hoped shortly to he able to
bring forward some measure that he trusted would be

satisfactory,
Mr. T. ATTWOOD wished to put a question to his

Majesty's Ministers, relative to our foreign policy. For a
series of years it had been the object of Russia, if possi-
ble, to obtain possession of Constantinople ; for several
weeks there had been alarming rumours that Constanti-
nople was about to be taken possession of by Russia, if,
indeed, it was not already got into their possession. He
wished to know what steps his Majesty's Government had
taken to protect the interests of this country.
Lord ALTHORP could not believe that such an event
as was contemplated by the Hon. Member had taken
place, or that any thing had occurred which was likely to
warrant the belief that it was probable —(Hear, hear.)
As to the steps which his Majesty's Government had
thought proper to take, he trusted the House would see
that it was not consistent with his duty at present to de-
ve!cpe them. —( Hear, bear.) He would take this opportu-
nity of suggestin g that the Hon. Member opposite (Mr.
Atwood) instead of bringing forward his motion in the
shape of an amendment upon the motion which he (Lord
Althorp) wits about to bring forward, should introduce it
as a substantive motion.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD then rose to bring forward his
motion. Since lie had had the honour of a seat in that
House, he had thought it his duty on all occasions to re-
commend to the attention of the House an inquiry into the
condition of the productive, the middle, and lower classes
of the community. All the arguments and statements, how-
ever, not enly of himself, but of those more able than him-
self, had not induced the House to adopt that course, though
they had been accumulating miseries for 18 years. He
knew not if he could recommend that enquiry lay other
arguments than had been before urged, but he must say
that those arguments had now the testimony of time
and experience, and the conviction tl.at this country
had long been governed by a mistaken policy. It
was with a confidence not previously felt on occasions
of this sort, and with a better hope for the country, that
he would propose the motion with which he should have
o.e honour to conclude. He recognized in the present
House of Commons a body more disposed to act indivi-
dually on their own private judgments, as it should appear to
them that the good of the country required them to vote
than any other body that had ever assembled in that House.
In former Parliaments there was a disposition very ex-
tensively prevalent among Members to surrender not their
vote but their judgment also to the leaders of that House.
But that system was now extinct; and a feeling of re-
sponsibility subsisted between Members and their con-
stituents. That consideration bore on the proposition
which he would conclude by proposing The great
leaders of parties in that House had always heard with
great reluctance any statements relating to the calamities
or distress of the country, and especially when connected
with the monetary system—because those evils had origi-
nated in their misgovernment, and their measures had been
adopted with precipitancy, and greater error and oppres-
sion had led to the evils which thi y were much disinclined
to hear stated in that House. With these observa-
tions he would proceed to state what the condition
of the country was, which he should establish before
a Committee, and which demanded an investigation
on the part of Government. He would, however, previ-
ously refer very briefly to some of the grounds on which
this enquiry had hitherto been objected to. No state of
distress which had existed for the last IS years, however
severe, and however generally acknowledged to prevail,
had ever been listened to with attention. Hon. Members
immediately got up, and by reading a little from letters which
they took from their pockets, endeavoured to contradict the
universally acknowledged fact of prevalent distress. Besides,
the Hon. Member for Essex was seldom backward in bearing
his testimony against existing districts, and intimating
that if only the Bank and East India Charter were settled
satisfactorily, tere would be general national prosperity.
--(Hear, and a laugh.) Besides, Ministers were always
ready to bring forw:-.rd Excise, Custom-house, and Ex-
chequer accounts, for the purpose of showing how much
was exported—how much was imported, and that in
fact no distress existed. He must be allowed to say
that no Government had ever used those documents fairly.
He would advert to a single instance to show how careful
the House should be in relying upon such statements as
were sometimes made. A statement was made upon a
circumstance similar to the present, in which it was set
down, in proof of the increasing prosperity of the wine
trade, that the number of wine merchants, according to the
licenses granted, had doubled within a short period ; whilst
the fact was, that the quantity of wine consumed in the
same period had actually diminished. When such state
inents as those were made in the House, and influenced
its decision, they could not but excite in the country the
utmost amazement and indignation. The Noble Lord had
admitted that there was a great pressure of distress
in the country ; and the Noble Lord at the head of his
Majesty's Government had some time since avowed that
it was not enough that there should exist no extreme dis•
tress in the country, after a reasonable period of peace,
but that, if the country were not absolutely in a prosPe
perOUS condition, it was the duty of a Government to
search into every particular circumstance, ar.d to be-
co,.hmipe, feuollisatcinqguainctieudefiyiith the whole condition ol
the country—(rfear, hear)--tb know fully why distress
instead of prosperity prevailed.—(Hear, hear.) Some
time before the Noble Lord came down with his budget, a
respectable deputation had waited upon his Lord-
class, and pressiefd trailing noutponentihreimly,
ne-
cessity of repealing the assessed taxes ; and they were met
the te

(PRICE 7n.)

by the expression of a design on the part of the
Noble Lord, that no motion should be brought forward on
that subject before the Budget was opened. These parties
would naturally have expected that the Budget would have
relieved them of these taxes ; but their plea of the
necessity of an immediate repeal, to prevent the bank •
ruptcy of shopkeepers, was met br a statement
from the Noble Lord that without the continuance of
these taxes, faith could net be kept with the
ou,lic creditor. From the financial statement of the
Noble Lord, it was shown that there was only the insignifi-
cant sum of 500,0001. towards reducing the national deist.
What, he would ask the champions of public faith, would
this do? How, he would even a-k, were the Exche-
ue r Bills already issued to be returned ?—(Hear, hear.)
He would go back to the state of the revenue when the
people of this country paid 78 millions in taxation, and if
he showed to the House that at that period 18 millions of
population paid that tax easily, and that 24 mililions could
not do it sow, he trusted the House would at once accede
to his motion. In 1815 the people had seventy-eight
millions ; in 1814, seventy-seven millions, casting aside
every description of loan, but in 1832 24 millions
could not pay without difficulty 50 millions, according to
the statement of the Noble Lord opposite.—(Hear.) He
should be content to rest his motion on that fact alone.
He would appeal to every Member of the House, whether
with evidence like this of the pauperism of the country
before him, he would not think it a disgrace to abandon
his duty by not bringing the facts before the House, in
order that it might direct an examination of the most ex-
tensive description into the causes of that distress. He
did not pretend to make the House the theatre of abstract
discussion, but it was a mistake of the people of the pre-
sent day, that they had been induced to carry the abstract
doctrine too far, making the poorer classes of the country to
depend upon contingencies. He would show, in the course
of his speech, what the progress had been by which the
increased population of 1833 was unable to support the
burdens which had been lightly borne by their predecessors
in 1815.—(The H n.Member then proceeded to state, that
the amount of taxation, if reduced according to the real
value of money, would have been much less than at present.
He mentioned 38,800,0301., 37 807,0001., 34,500.000 L,
as the comparative value of the money raised during t, e
years preceding 1815. In that year (as we understood
him) the value of the taxes, as cnmpar d with the money
of the present day, was only 43,700,0001., so that the
50,200,0001 raised at present was in fact 6,500,0001.
more than was paid in 1815.) It had been regularly stated
by the Chancellors of the Exchequer, when they proposed
reductions, that the deficiency of the revenue would in a
great measure be made up by increased consumption. That
calculation, in his opinion, was in itself founded in right
principles, and he concurred in its correctness ; but it
could not be argued that the taxes were reduced by such
measures. The real fact was, that the money bein4
increased in v ilue, the diminished tax was equal to the
old one in its real amount.—(The Hon. Member then
entered into various details upon the subject of the fi-
nances during the last eighteen years, modifying his cal-
culations according to his peculiar views ; but the thumps
which be gave the table at every fresh enumeration pre-
vented our hearing fully the purport of his illustrations.
He said the population had increased by one-third, which
to be an indication of an increase of the means of
subsistence, but, instead of that, there was nothing hut

increasing poverty, destitution and want, and a lessened
command on the part of the people in general over the
necessaries and conveniences of life.) The eighteen years
of which he spoke had been a period of prosperity and
increased consumption, and he would show the House
that the revenue of 1825 was equivalent to 70,007,0001.
in the money of 1815.—(He then went into some further
details respecting the period of the Joint Stock Companies,
concluding hi, observations on the subject by saying, that
he might be accused of alluding to a period which ended
in calamity on account of over-speculation ; but the
calamity had not arisen from over-speculation on the
pit t of the treat body of the community, but was entirely
swing to those parties who are in the habit constantly of
speculating in the funds.) Io 1818 the revenue was
49,070,0001 , being an increase in three years, according to
his way of calculating the value of money, of eleven
millions. With regard to the nature of any inquiry
into the nature of the distress, it was impossible to take a
single step towards it without entering into the considera-
tion of the monetary system. It would be a mere mockery
to attempt to neglect that great point. For 17 years the
House had been engaged in reducing the burden of taxa-
ti •n, and every successive Administration boasted of the
vigour with which it was proceeding in the great work.
If this w is true in so far, it was no less true that they bad
undone with one hand what they had been doing with the
other. While they had been urging their claims on the
gratitude of the people for reducing their burdens, they
had been silently imposing fresh burdens and heavier bur-
dens upon the labouring population.—(Hear, hear.) If
that were so, the time, in his opinion, was at length come
when it was their duty to go seriously to work, and to en-
deavour, really and substantially, and not nominally only,
to remove the burdens of the country. The object of his
motion was to inquire whether they did not possess the
means, without any breach of faith or honesty—( Hear,
hear)—to increase the means of the people to endure the
burdens which pressed upon them.—(The Hon. Gentle-
man entered, at considerable length, into the argument of
the increase of the taxes in consequence of the increase in
the value of money.) it was the duty of the House to do
all it could, in the first place, for the reduction of taxes ;
and if they found, notwithstanding all their endeavours,
that they had it not in their power to do so much as
was necessary in that way, it was then imperative upon
them to proceed in the only course by which they could
reduce the burdens of the people. Every class of the peo-
ple, he maintained, had cuff, ed by the changes in the
value of money ; but no class equally with the landed in-
terest, who, along with the farmers and labourers, who
till the soil, forth the most important class of all. They
form the most important instruments for the increase of
national wealth, and their prosperity was inseparable from
that of the country.—(Hear, hear.) There was no reason
whatever to cell upon landlords more than any other class
of the community to make sac, ifices. People talked of re-
ducing rents to the level of 1792 ; but what was that but
a proposal for the confiscation of such property, to the
amount of its increase? Since that period land was sub
ject to mortgages, settlements, &c. to which other pro-
perty was not subject. It was, therefore, still more unjust
that an undue pressure should he throwu upon a species of
property already subject to so many burdens ; but by the
proceedings which had taken place respecting the circula-
don, the landholders bad already been in a great measure
sacrificed. The only remedy was, by a relaxation of the
monetary system, which would give an increased value to
the productions of agriculture. The abolition of the corn
laws was another species of confiscation to which the
landed interest were subjected ; but the confiscation was
not yet complete.—. Hear, hear.) Certain parties were
apparently determ;ned to proceed in the career of spolia-
tion, against which there was nothing to oppose but a re-
laxation of the monetary system.—(The Hun. Member then
proceeded to allude to some questions put in ditf-rent
counties by the Poor Law Commissioners respecting the
increase or decrease of agricultural capital.) He had been
enabled to procure the answers to the questions with re-
gard to eighteen counties. With respect to one of these
(Cornwall), the answer with respect to seven parishes
was, that agricultural capital increased ; with respect to
four, that it decreased ; and in the case of five parishes,
that it was stationary. With tbat exception, and with the
exception of another county (Wilts, we believe), the an-
swer was universal!), that agricultural capital had de-
creased. From what had this arisen but from the alters-
in the value of money ? It had been said by some, that
this distress of the agricultural districts arose in a great
measure from the state of the poor laws, and from tee
mil-administration of those laws by the magistrates and
other parochial officers ; and a commission hid been ap-
pointed to inquire into the subject. But how long had
the poor laws existed without having produced such
consequences as th. se which were now attributed to
them ? A hundred and fifty years elapsed atter the
introduction of those laws before the annual sum pail
under them exceeded 600,0001. It was only in our
own day that we fonucl them so administered
as to be destructive of the independence of the la
bourer. The real cause of the evil, however, was the
.tote of the currency. The same as as the case in Ireland.
What he invited the House to do was to go into an in-
quiry with, him into the real causes of the disturbances in
Ireland, in order to ascertain if they had it n.t in their
power to retuove the causes, ,vithout hay ng recourse to
the vulgar policy of enciea•Paitring to put down the distur •
Mom by measures of coercion. A Committee of the
House of Commons had been appointed lust year to exa-
mine into the state of the disturbed counties in Ireland—

2ozp
-‘-esteezeer =r• •
'
into the immediate causes which at produced the seer,
and into the efficiency of the lave for the suppression of
outrages against the public peace. 'The approaching close
of the session prevented the Cominittee from preparing a •
detailed report; but they referred 'to the stsiOenof taken
before the Committee as illustrative of the eintii- of the
disturbances. If the cause might be judged of by that
appear
cause,tha
that the
nor illegal
wasthe
combinations
ion ,and
of
•livrihdietnerceee,tittrderid not
e the
original
Learned Member for Dulein the cause. Throughout the
whole folio volume of evidence, the name of that lion.
and Learned Gentleman .was never mentioned in con-
nection with the disturbance. in Ireland. He (Mr.
A.) was indeed satisfie f, that if that Hun. and Learned
Gentleman, and all who took an active part in la
affairs were banished to-morrow, nothing would be done
toward the re-establishment of tranquillity in Ireland.
The kind of divided empire which the lion. and Learnt at
Member for Dublin held with the King in Irrleede was
not the cause, but the consequence of the disturbed state
of
that country. The cause was the extreme poverty and
utter destitution of the Irish people ; the high rents, ti e
low wage'', the absence of employment in consequence of
the farmers not having the means to pay the labourers.
What was the nature of the evidence published in the re-
port of Mr. Singleton, the chief magistrate of police for
the colliery district, in the Queen's county? To various
questions put to that gentlman, the substance of his an-
swers was, "that the principal tense of the disturbances r
fated to ground ; to clearing grounds and turning the tenets to
off; to high rents and low wages, and dear corn-acres:"
In another part of Mr. Singleton's evidence he descrihed
the disturbances as principally attributable to " opprcreien;
high rent, low wages, and contreets being broken." While
Mr. Nicholas O'Connor, a Roman Catholic priest, whose
evidence was a'so published in the tepurf of the Com-
mittee of last session, was asked whet *ere ttie peinei.
pal objects which the Whitefeet had in their o'iterasele,ee
his answer was, "to keep themselves upon their
I have often heard their cony' raations whee' tll6t,
say, ' What good did the emancipation do 4'
Are we b-tter clothed or fed, or our children better
clothed and fee ? Are we not as naked as we wet'''. and
citing dry potatoes when we can get them ?'" Whet l'e
(Mr. Attwootl) wished the Committee to inOttite
with him was, whether there were not means of es4le4
clothes and food to these poor persona? A great deal tresef.
I een said of the danger which was produced in Ireland
by the efforts of the agitators ; he was persuaded that
much greater danger would arise from that House shutting
its eyes to the misery of the Irish people. In a subsequent
part of his evidence, speaking of the feeling which their
great derres. produced in the mind. of the poorer classes
in Ireland, Mr. O'Connor said, " They care not if they
are taken and hanged for those desperate acts committed
in a state of revenge ; death would he nothing to them ;
they care nothing for life." Mr. Cahill, another witness,
having been aske I what line of conduct he would reciam-
mend in order to improve the state of things in Ireland,
and to prevent the disturbances and calamities which
existed there, replied, " I will state what I conceive to
he a good mode to put an end to disturhsaces. I must
look hack to the years 1810 to 1814" —befote the !atilt
change was made in our monetary system—" when theie
was an extraordinary price for the produce of hai'd
there were also extraordinary prices for the labetet rei
men, and in consequence of that the men were much'
inclined for labour; and the farmer getting extraordinary
prices for his corn and for various things, he was inclined
to carry on a great many works that are now abandoned
in the country. Farmers in those times who had wet
lands were in the habit of draining the land ; and farmers
in those days were constantly top-dressing their lands
with manure, and liming the lands on the surface."
When Mr. Cahill was afterwards asked whether, at the
period to which be adverted, the farmers of Irel ind were
generally in the habit of cultivating the land better than
they had been since, hie answer was "They were: now
the produce of the land not being sufficient to enable the
farmer to carry on those works, he is obliged to decline
employing the people." This evil Mr. Cahill 'attributed
to the rents being too high.—(The Hon. Gentleman
here read extracts from the Report of the Committee on
the Poor Laws of 1830, and mere especially the evidence
given before that Committee by an Hoe. Member of that
House, who attributed the demoralization of our labour-
ing classes entirely to wan of employment.) That want
of employment, he (Mr. Attwood) maintained, was en-
tirely owing to the change which had been made in our
monetary system ; and be put it to the House, therefore,
whether they would not at least inquire how far a relaxa-
tion of the system substituted for that which formerly ex-
isted might be advantageously agreed to. He could not
leave that branch of the subject without remarking on the
numerous evils which had arisen from the destruction of the
independence of that large portion of the papule.
tion—the bulwarks of our country—employed in avid
culture. They bad seen, of late years, the agricul ural
labourer engaged in destroying the property of his em-
ployer ; a new species of crime, arising from a new cause
of distress, and a characteristic of that moral degradation
which was the natural result of the loss of independence.
He would now proceed to consider the condition of other
interests in the country. And first, with respect to the
shipping interest. Next to the landed interest, the ship.
ping interest was the great arm of strength which this
country possessed. In proof of the distressed state of the
shipping interest, the Hon. Gentleman referred to the
memorial which bad been presented to the Treasury last year
by the shipowners of Bristol, representing the manner in
which, for the l ast fifteen years, they bad struggled against
difficulties, the accumulation of which at length threatened
to overwhelm them with destruction. This interest, as
well as all other interests its the country, fixed
its attention steadily on the reformed Parliament,
and looked to that Parliament for, at least some
effort to relieve the distress under which it laboured.
The House might rely upon it that, by the steps
which they might take with reference to this ques-
tion, they would either confirm or forfeit the con-
fidence which the people had in them. He appealed
to those Hon. Members who were conversant with
the subject, and who would correct him if he stated what
was not the fact, whether the commercial marine of this
country was not, year after year, undergoing a process of
deterioration ? He re-affirmed, in the presence of those who
knew the fact, that on a comparison of the state of that great
commercial mart, the Royal Exchange of London, three
years ago, with its state in the present day, it would be
found that there was not a third of the opulent shipowners
who assembled there at the former period, who assembled
there at present. This was, in his opinion, an over-
whelming proof of the distress which had been occasioned
by the change in our monetary system.—(The Hon. Gen-
tleman lucre read the copy of a memorial addressed to the
Treasury in 1831 by the iron-masters, stating the ilitense
suffering which hail been endured since 1825, by all those
interested in the trade—and that they had, under present
circumstances, " no other prospect but that of increasing
destitution and misery.") Then, with regard to manufac-
tures—to the cultivation of our cotton, silk, end woollen
trade—to those immense branches of national industry
centered in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and Scotland ; he
believed his Hon. Relative was correct in stating, the
ether night, that all properties of this kind wen al-
most entirely unsaleable. And no wonder, fur if manu-
factures could not be carried on with anything like pros-
perity--and he maintained they could not—there was nit
chance of their being sold with advantage to any party.
He therefore denied that his Hon. Relative had in any way
exaggerated the distress which prevailed in these portions
of the empire. If there had been exaggeration, it was in
behalf of that fer which no excuse could be found—no
justification pleaded—an exaggeration of a prosperity
which was not real. What had been the conduct of the
French Government in similar circumstancns ? He did
not well like to refer to it. It was a melancholy rivalship
indeed, to inquire as to which nation was suffering the
greater degree of distress. But that Government had
inquired—that Government had looked into the condition
of their own people, and hail sent a Commission to inquire
into that of ours.—( Hear, hear.) Of this Dr. Majetadie
was the bead. The Commissioners reported, that they
thought in their own land they had seen the extremity of
distress, but they no longer thought so when they saw the
people of Sunderland—(Hear)--(as we understood the
Hon. Member, but we cannot pledge ourselves to this and
several other statements, from the circumstance of the
speaker's almost continually turning hie back to the gallery ).
In 3
rl
.Bflf in
aba of
hh g
ee
w rheoalte
population
manufacturing
w e
rteow of
receiving
parochialtou
relief.—(Hear.) Indeed, the amount of destitution and
misery caused by this monetary system in the manufac-
turing districts was almost incredible. He denied that,
is had been asserted, the power-looms had occasioned this
horrid increase of distress and trouble. They saw in the
increasing poverty and aggravated destitution of these hard-
eorking tnen the natural result of the vicious change in
our system of currency. It was his duty to call the at-
tention of the House to a statement of another kind---tl?e
timber of criminals since this change, the increase in
which he maintained was solely attributable to
.use would see from this bow the num et
in-
creased—that since this change u•
theseH
e nuanber
s
o
neeee atihtyinogfs e
of o
en
roiumr
nbal el Aflr e. min btehr e hyeeraer readsl4 at paperrhat of
ff
st_ hsr_
the currency, What
bu.dird.
Was
n..w
oadd
counted by thousands, betore be estunated 7
c.
.1 they look with apathy
uyl
to
their ears, a
be rung in ejt ntioletyfeaelllotwhe
tering on a wiser path? They toast adopt a mote bcne-
on such statements---ncod