The Sun.
London, England, 1851-06-18 00:00:00

LONDON, WEDNESDAY

THE SITN,,

Mr. BASS replied. He believed that a reduction of the -- in having the force on the Pacific station at that time we
malt-tax to one-half of its present amount would not be ki I reference to the force kept by France. So if we kept
attended with a loss of one-half of the present revenue, be- " forces in the Pacific or the Mediterranean, could we not, by
cause the effect of such reductions has always been to in- mutual agreement with France, lessen that force? He might
crease consumption, and to render a larger quantity of pro- be told there Were other nations to be considered; but
duce liable to the duty. i neither Spain nor Holland were naval nations. The other
The House then divided, and the numbers were— j naval nations of the world were France, Russia, and America,
For the motion .. . .., ... 31 and it was with these nations only we need enter into
Against it ... ~,, „.. ... 76 treaties. America bad a commerce extending as wide as
.
Majority against the motion --- —45 our owneand if she went on extending her commerce at the
REDUCTION OF NATIONAL ARMAMENTS. same rate she had done for the last few years, she must be.
Mr. COBDEN rose to move "an humble address to her come eventually the greatest mercantile and maritime power
Majesty, praying that she will direct the Secretary of State in the world. If America could carry on her commerce
for Foreign Affairs to enter into communication with the without the aid of one line-of-battle ship, there could hardly
Government of France, and endeavour to prevent in future be any fear from that quarter. Then as to Russia, he did
that rivalry of warlike preparations :in time of peace which not share the fears of some Hon. Members as to Russia ever
has hitherto been the policy of the two Governments; and becoming a great naval power. Russia had, no doubt, a
to promote, if possible, a mutual reduction of armaments." number of large ships; but if she had a large naval force
The Hon. Member said it had been remarked in the course of she kept it at home, and for good reasons, for if she exhibited
the discussion which had just terminated, that we were ap- her maritime power to the inspection of maritime countries
proaching times when it would be impossible for certain like America it was possible she would not inspire any very
interests to support their present amount of taxation; and great admiration or respect. With the large number of sailors
he confessed that one of his motives for bringing forward we had in our mercantile marine, he did not think we need
that motion was, that he believed it would be so far suitable fear anything from those countries which did not possess a
to present circumstances, that it would tend to produce a marine. Well, then, America offered no obstacle to the plan
diminution of our national burdens. Before he entered upon he suggested, but rather invited co-operation ; and France
the subject he wished it should be distinctly understood what certainly would see it was her interest to come into the
was the scope and purport of his motion. He did not want proposition under these encouraging circumstances. Were
that motion to be taken for more than it meant. He did not we then to go on for even in the same course? He
propose that they should enter in any way into a consider- thought not. 'He might be told this was not the proper
ation of the amount of the armies maintained in continental moment for such a proposition. He believed that was a
nations. In alluding to the warlike preparations between mistake; no better time than the time present could be se-
France and England, he wished to refer solely to their naval lected. He would quote a short extract from the Times to
preparations and fortifications. It was very well known P
that our armies bore no reference to the armies of the coati- rove the state of public opinion on this question. (The
Hon. Member read an extract, which was to the effect that
nent, and it was equally well known that the armies of the the people were not disposed to war either here or on the
Continent were never formed with any reference to the continent.) lf this were so, where was the use of France
armies of England. For his part, he could not help think- keeping up her present enormous naval force? No one
ing that the immense standing armies of the Continent were, could suppose that France would not willingly save the ex-
the curse of the present generation. Those armies were pease. He had conversed with French politicians, who told
maintained, not for the purpose of meeting foreign enemies, him France kept up her navy because England kept up her
but for the purpose of repressing domestic foes.—(Hear, navy, and that France would be glad to be released from
hear.) But he wished it to be understood that his object that burthen. There would be no sacrifice of dignity on the
was that we should enter into negotiations with part of England to make overtures to France—for I, ranee
France for the reduction of the navies and of the fortifies- never pretended to rival England as far as her navy was
tions of the two countries, while he hoped that that example fica-
concerned. France always conceded the superiority to Eng-
land, and, therefore, overtures on the part of England could
if successful, would ultimately be imitated by, other nations'
not be placed to the account of fear. He was sure that the
with respect to their armaments generally. He hoped Hon.
resent rivalry must cease, because the force kept up on both
Members would agree with him that the maintenance in 1)
sides was so equal that neither could expect to gain an
time of peace of any amount of naval force beyond that which
vantage. If one country was weak and the other strong
ad-
was required for the protection of our commerce against pi-
there might be a motive for going to war, but in the case
Kates, and the attacks of barbarous nations, - was in itself an
France and England every step taken towards aug-
evil. They might, however, tell him It was a necessary evil ; of -
!fear t naval strength was taken out of respect
but why waslt necessary?' It was „only • necessary because
other countries were armed as well as ourselves, aria because and fear of each other. At present if England -aug-
it was necessary that we should be preparedto defend our- mented her navy, France did the same. We were acting
selves against them. Now in that case he contended that not for the purpose of gaining an advantage over
the force maintained on both sides, was a pure waste of France, but for self-defence. No one could doubt that a war
money, and more than a pure waste of
between France and Edgland would be mutually disadvan-
because- the money spent,
it also prevented the employment of the armed tageous, and therefore the strongest motives existed for
troops in profitable and productive employment. It was Putting an end to the present state of things. He wished to
clear that if the object of two countries •in maintaining a hear the Noble Lord's opinion of his proposition, and whether
force was to be prepared for mutual hostilities, that object he was disposed to entertain and support the principle in-
could be attained by the . employment of one man or volved in it. What he asked was, that at least an endea-
one vessel on each side as well as by the your should be made to diminish the existing forces, and to
employment of twenty men or twenty- vessels. But put an end to rivalry. He should, be content if he only saw
he might be asked, why he assumed that England an attempt made to prevent waste and expenditure for the
armed against France, and France against England? He future. If something of the sort was done, it would be per-
was prepared, however, to substantiate that point by evi- fectly consonant with the altered temper of the times.
dence which could not be disputed. He was not often in the (Hear, hear.) Private enterprise Was doing much to bring
the two nations together.years ' ago 34 hours were
habit of reading quotations to the House; but he shouldA few
r
read a few upon that occasion. In the course of a debate in required for a post to Paris; now the journey was performed
the French Chamber of Deputies in the year 1846, when it in 11 hours. Formerly a person talking a foreign tongue in
had been proposed that a sum of 100,000,000 of francs should this country would have been called a Frenchman and in-
be voted for the purpose of effecting a vast augmentation in
suited ; now we saw all kinds of foreigners in the streets of
the navy,.in consequence, almost exclusively, of an augmen-
London—a grand meeting of nations who could assemble in
o
lotion which had taken place in our navy during the two one common temple for harmonious and peaceful purposes.
preceding years—in the course of that debate Al. Thiers had fie asked Government to go with the spirit of the age, and
said :—" There is nothing offensive to England in citing her to adopt the principle of the plan which he ventured to sub-
example, when our navy is under consideration, any more mit to the House. He should be glad to hail that Minister
than there would be in speaking of Prussia, Austria, or Rus- who, casting aside the old and stale maxims of foreign di-
sia, if we were deliberating on the strength of our army. plomacy, and adopting new and more suitable principles,
We pay England the compliment of thinking only of her
earned for himself endless renown. He begged to move his
when determining what shall be our naval force. We never resolutions.
count the ships which leave Trieste or Venice; we " care for Mr. URQUHART rose to move, by way of amendment,
those only which leave Portsmouth or Falmouth. These
"That it is inexpedient, by reselutions of this House, to move
were the words of M. Thiers. And language of an equivalent the Crowd to originate negotiations on abstract questions."
character had been held by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Previous to the last war, England maintained but a single
Foreign Affairs in this country in the course of the debate frigate in the Mediterranean. This was by compact with
upon the financial statement of the Prime Minister in the other nations, for it was generally understood if a naval force
year 1848, The Noble Lord had then said that—" So far was sent abr •ad it was sent for aggressive purposes. A na-
from its affording any cause of offence •to France that we tion's naval force was usually kept at home. He tendered to
should measure our navY by such a standard, he was sure the Hon. Member his thanks fer bringing forward this sub- •
that any one who had followed the debates in the French ject, but the Hon. Member had left out some material cir-
Chambers when their naval estimates had come under dis- cumstances in his otherwise lucid and valuable statement. It
cussion, must know that they had followed the same course, was not correct to attribute the increase made by France in
and had adopted the natural standard in such cases—namely, her navy to the previous increase made by England; that
the amount of the naval force maintained at the same time by
increase had its origin in the growing jealousy in France to-
other nations." The Noble Lord at the head of the Govern- wards England, and the hostile feeling attempted to be
'
ment had stated upon the same occasion that—" although it created in the minds of Frenchmen. The man who had had
had never been our custom to allude to the military force in the greatest action on French affairs was M. Thiers,
other countries, he thought that such ' a great increase as whose policy was to increase the naval strength of France,
that which had taken place in the naval estimates of France more especially on account of the repulsive attitude assumed
required the attention, and °ugh+, at all events, to come by the Noble Lord at the head of foreign affairs. The late
under the knowledge of that House" These were the highest Sir Robert Peel was of opinion there was no reason for
authorities, and he apprehended it would be considered, the Syrian treaty, which (we understood), had then taken
atter hearing them, that he had indulged in no baseless as- place, because its effect was to sow estrangement rather
sumption in stating that the two countries were guided in than to prove the friendly feelings between the two coup-
their policy by each other's expenditure. What was the
tries. The Noble Lord bad not carried out a conciliatory
consequence? He had two objections to urge against that course of feeling towards France, and this was the real origin
policy ; first, that it was an irritating policy, and one con- of the increased armaments which had taken place. He
stoutly tending to increase the evil which it engendered;
agreed with the Hon. Member for the West Riding that
and secondly, that it induced the two countries to proceed on there was little cause for difference between this country and
armaments.—(Hear, The misunderstandings of late years had arisen
exaggerated accounts of each other's ar
which they had no concern. As the resolution at present
solely from the interference of the Government in affairs in
hear.) He would give an instance. He had mentioned
on the discussion of the naval estimates that there had
been a great increase in the year 1845-1846. The French stood he could not give it his unqualified support.
the speech he had just made, said he differed from the Hon.
were alarmed. A Committee was appointed by the Mr. MACKINNON, after complimenting Mr. Cobden on
French Chamber to inquire into the state of the French
navy. A report was made, which stated that the E
vention ,in other countries which-he contended had been
Government, with its usual foresight, under the modest pre-
productive not of war but peace. With respect to war
,
tence of providing eight guard ships, had fitted out an
itself, they were all aware that it had been too common even
armament of floating batteries, of the destructive powers of
from the earliest ages. He did not think there were likely
sides with the most formidable batteries on land for the
which some idea might be formed by comparing their broad-
in future to be wars of a similar nature. He had no desire
destruction of fortified places, and that it was absolutely to deprecate the advantages of peace or to deny the evils of
necessary for France to prepare an armament of similar war. One writer had remarked that man had destroyed a
character and equal force, so as to have nothing to dread in greater number of his kind in one year of war than savage
future in case of a possible misunderstanding with England. animals had destroyed of their species since the creation.
Here was it stated broadly that the eight steam guard-ships With respect to a relative reduction of force, he did not see
were preparing against France. But what was the fact? if we were to reduce our fleet to two men-of-war on condi-
When he sat on the Committee in 1848 it appeared, on tion that France reduced her 'fleet to one ship, how we could
examining the authorities at the Admiralty, that only four protect our colonies and transport troops to and from our
of these guard-ships had ever been completed, and instead various possessions. He thought the Hon. Member for the
of being, as was stated in the French report, capable of West Riding ought to be satisfied with having made his
remaining at sea for fourteen days, it would have been im statement, and leave to the Noble Lord the Foreign Sucre-
possible
-
tars to take what. steps he might think fit in the matter.
for them to remain more than three or four days
from their want of capacity to carry sufficient coal. He Lord PALMERSTON said that in offering his ,opposition
would now show how the two nations had been playing see- to the motion he hoped the House would not suppose that he
saw with each other. In 1815-1846 we increased our navy wished to express, or that he was actuated by,eany feelings
a million sterling. In 1846 France voted a proportionate or by any principle at variance with the fundamental prin-
-100,000,000 francs. The nextear, Mr. Ward, the
ciple on which the proposition before them wilts founded.
Secretary of the Admiralty, in again proposing an However he might differ from his Hon. Friend—if the Hon.
increase, cited the example of France. After giving a de- Member for the West Riding would permit him to call him
regard to the many practical opinions which he
tailed account of the 'augmentation of the French estimates so—with
Fora time to time expressed in that House, and however
in the previous year, he added that he found no fault with littlel. he might think of the methods by which he endea-
France, who had only done what she thought right and ne-
vdired to give practical effect to the general principles
cessary for the maintenance of her position, and that she had
which he thought best calculated to obtain his ends; yet
set us in many respects a noble example; that these facts
ought to be a lesson to us, and imposed a very heavy respon- withregard to the international principles and feelings
sibility on those who were in power in this country. Of which influenced him as an advocate of peace be was ready
to do-must ample justice, and to subscribe implicitly to the
course it could not stop there. It ran our estimates up to
general tendency of the views which he had from time to
42,000 men, and he believed that 44,000 or 45,000 men were
time expressed upon that point, He trusted that the part
borne. This could not fail to produce its effect in France.
He held in his hand an extract from a report to the present which it had been his lot to take in the administration of
one department of the Government of this country had not
National Assembly of France on the navy, in 184 e. "Let
shown that there
was an y thin inconsistent with the opi-
ne see," said the report, " whether foreign powers set us the
nions he was now expressin g
g.—(Hear, hear.) However
example of reducing their naval armaments. This very
spring England has voted 40,000 men for the sea service. easy it might be for some Honourable Members—
(Hear, hear.) We continue to maintain our 24 vessels of the in that easy, colloquial, happy style—(A laugh)—which
belonged to the Hon. Member opposite—to talk of him
line afloat, and 16 on the stocks, whilst England has her 70
ships afloat, besides those in the course of building." But the as an intermeddler, yet he could appeal to facts that during
the considerable period for which he was responsible for
thing could not be complete, the farce could not come to its
the foreign relations of this country—a period during which
climax, without another quotation. In 1851 Sir F. Baring
there had happened in Europe events of a most remarkable
-,-and he would mention it . incidentally had induced kind, attended with great commotions of public feeling -
him to give notice of this motion—Sir F. Baring, in:
during which great agitation had existed in the social and
moving the navy • estimates, said "it was impossible to
political systems of Europe—during which events bad hap-
fix upon what would be necessary for our own establishments,
petted which had brought the interests of Europe, he would
without looking to those of foreign countries. He might;
not say into conflict, though it might be in opposition to the
however, observe, that they had had sufficient proofs in the
s o 'interestf other great and powerful nations—peace
course of last year that a gallant, active, and intelligent eace had
been preserved between this country and other nations; and
people, not far off, had not by any m
not only that, but there had been no international wars of
naval establishments or their naval
peweearn.Lngl(eueeacrt.e)d their ,
Right. Hon. Gentleman then went on to describe the evolu- magnitude between any of the other great powers of Europe.
Lions at Cherbourg. He held in his hand a report of the —( Hear.) If, therefore, he was taunted on the one hand
Commission appointed by the National Assembly, to consider
a vote of 6,800,000 f. for the works at Cherbourg, dated with perpetual interference and intermeddling in the affairs
of other countries, credit ought. to be given him that that
April 11,1851, " What," asked the report, " were the defen- intervention and that interference had been accompanied by
Moe works at Cherbourg ? If they wanted any reasons for
the continuance of peace. lie ought not to be accused of
no longer allowing their coasts to remain in a defenceless
constant interference, and yet lie refused the credit of the
state, they had only to listen to the opinion expressed by
results of that interference: With respect to the question
one of England's most renowned sailors, Admiral Napier, in
more immediately before them, he might remark that in
his letters to the Times, and look at the map and observe the seeking to attain'any great object they might not fix their
vast works which the British Admiralty were executing at eyes 'exclusively on the object itself, but ought to cast a
Jersey and Alderney.—( Hear.) This was the more necessary' glance at the read by which it was proposed to reach it; for
inasmuch as the railroads and steam-boats of England were many people were so devoted to the end that they never
every day increasing, which gave the means to the power looted to the means, and did not choose the Most judicious
mode.of accomplishing their purpose.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
which possessed them of concentrating at any given point a
sudden expedition. One of the best things which the if all nations were composed of philanthropic and philo-
House
"
had done since he (Mr. Cobden) had entered it was to sophic men—exempt from the influence of the passions—
suspend these works at Alderney. the continuance of which with • enlarged minds and comprehensive views, then it
was an affront to France. Cherbourg, as every one knew, mighrebe proposed—and he thought justly proposed—that
was a most valuable and indispensable harbour of refuge for the best mode of obtaining peace would be to proclaim that
merchant ships, and its breakwater might well have been we were totally unarmed— to throw ourselves on the good
made by contributions raised from the maritime states of all feelings of other countries, and to assure them that we had
none but friendly feelings towards them. But man, was not
lion, so close to our neighbour that we might be said to be
Europe ; while Alderney was nothing but a great fortifies= none
such a nature. The world had not arrived at that pitch
of civilization when one country could rest for its safety on
holding our fist in her face. The history, if you got at all
the secret movements of the panic, would be a most amusing the forbearance of its neighbours.—(Hear, hear.) The
and instructive history. The country in 1845 was persuaded world had not arrived at that pitch of civilization at which a
we were going to be invaded. Engineers had a roving come
country, possessed of a number of things which its neigh-
mission given them to see where money could be spent to bows might desire to acquire—a country the commerce of
fortify England, and afterwards Guernsey and Jersey. One which attracted the jealousy of rival merchants— a country
world
of covetousness to other maritime nations—he said the
of the officers so employed said at Plymouth 'he met with a posiessed of colonies and possessions which might be the ob-
person who believed his throat was about to •be cut by fo-
reign invaders, and the officer added, he shared in the panic. world had not arrived at that pitch of civilization when such
It was under this panic that 3,000,0001, or 4,000,0001. were a country, so rich, and possessing so many objects of desire,
neighbours and its own perfect incapacity to defend itself.—
spent, and the works of Keyham and other expensive pro- could•rest its security simply on the tgood intentions of its
(Hear,
jfeecat sr , wfaerr eFcroamn
France
commenced.
it with England
her.had not
nt the e
pamphlet monopoly
worfi
tttheins
hear.) The objection which he took to the means by
by Mr. Chevallier, to prevent the consequences of the panic in which the Hone Member for the West Riding from time
France, it was there stated that France had gone to an addi- to time endeavoured to force on the country his laudable and
tional exense of 10000,000/. or 11,000,0001. The writer pacific views was, that the Hon. Gentleman aimed too much
showed that in a limited period England and France had at divesting this country of its means of defence before
sutnhga
that
that
there no
expended about 13,000,000/. each on naval purposes. As- other nations had put themselves in a position similar to
m i•
woanse awspoiurlidt
e f attempt to
the
contradict
euestion arose, was hear.) The lion. Gentleman began his
the riser- that in which he wished this country to stand.—(Hear,
lion
us speech by stating
there a remedy for it e Could human reason be brought to that be put the comparison of military means out of the
bear against this mass of folly ? He would not go back to question, and that he confined the question to the compare-
treaties for disarming or demolishing certain fortresses, or an tive naval strength of different countries. To a certain de-
armed neutrality, and such things, in olden times, but there gree he would accept the standard of comparison proposed—
appeared a case in modern times which bore completely on viz., the relative power of England and France; but he must
this matter, and he Would refer to it. We had a treaty observe that it was impossible, in taking that comparison as
purposeof 1. • • ofnaval a standard, to throw out of the question—as the Hon.
with America for the lending the amount
force on the lakes dividing Canada from the United States. tleman had done—the military force of France •, because, if
He would read the- treaty. The Hon. Member read the unfortunately any event was to arise which should lead to
treaty, the substance of which was that there should be on hostilities between two countries so near to each other, and
all the lakes no more than a limited and an equal number brought still nearer than formerly by modern improvements
of vessels of war. It must be borne in mind that this treaty in navigation, it was impossible not to see that the country
was made at the conclusion of a very sanguinary war. The which possessed an army of 350,000 men, with a national
Duke of Wellington had written a letter to the effect guard of about 1,000,000, as compared with another which
that naval superiority was necessary for England had not a standing military force within the realm of more
on the lakes, and was essentialein case of anothee-rupe than 40,000 men, with neither militia nor national guard—it
ture. But the country had the good sense to limit the was impossible, he said, not to see that in comparing the
force to be kept on those lakes. What had been the result means of offence and defence in these countries, they could
of this friendly convention? It had not only limited the not confine themselves to the number of line-of-battle ships,
force, but had abolished the armed force altogether. He but must take into account the military strength which each
had sat on a Committee on the navy estimates at that time, possessed for attack or defence.—( Hear, hear.) The Ho-
and could find no vessel on the lakes of the nature of an nourable Member for the West Riding had been in the habit
armed force. This was the effect of the friendly convention pf underrating the works at Cherbourg, and to speak of that
--neither country at last cared to keed up any neanifesta- harbour as if it were simply a port of refuge; but when
tion of force at all. He would ask, could it act be 1 ossible the Honourable Member talked of the works in Alder-
to devise some plan, if not a convention—was it not practi- ney being
• aggressive against Cherbourg he might
to saying, We
cable to make a communication France, s • ymg, We are as well have said that a sentry-box was an aggression
willing to reduce our navy, having now so many line-of- against a fortified town.—(A laugh.) Cherbourg was, in
battle ships in commission and building, our relative force fact, a great naval arsenal, the works of which—according
being three to loo; and if you go on the same way the same to the very
proportion will continue to exist. Will you do the same? been in progress for nearly 50 years, at an expense of be-
Can report referred to by the lion. Gentleman—bad
7,000,0001. and 8,000,0001. sterling, and the value of
we not put an end to our rivalry and fears, and reduce tween
the number of our naval force?" He contended that it was which to France was represented to be as an advanced port
perfectly practicable—our naval stations permitted such a within 61 miles of the English coast, and, as incapable of
lan The Pacific station might be relieved of the armed being blockaded, a most important port of attack or aggres-
p .
force we kept up there. Lord Auckland, in 1848, stated that , sion against England.- (um, hear.) He did not wish to

exaggerate at all the relative means of France for aggression
and attack as compared with those of this country, still less
did he wish to imply that the continuance of the Cherbourg,
or any other works on the part of France, was to be consi-
dered as an indiction of existing hostile feelings towards
England. For his own part he utterly disclaimed any such
belief.—( Hear, hear.) 1-1 e was convinced that the greater
intercourse which had taken place of late years between the
two countries had dispelled many prejudices—had removed
many foolish hostile feelings which had long survived the
causes which had given them birth.—(Hear, hear.) It
was one of the mo,t gratifying circumstances of the
times in which we lived to see two great nations close
to each other—each gifted by nature with various qualities
entitling them to the esteem, friendship, and he would
say, the admiration of each other—capable of ren-
dering each other rne.d important services, and cepa.
ble —if actuated by feelings fatal to peace—of inflicting
great calamities on each ether—it was, he said, most gra-
tifying to see that every day that passed, that every month,
every year that elapsed.wts giving rise to more generous
and friendly feelings between these countries, and that the
feelings of mutual frieneship and esteem were rapidly
succeeding those antiquated notions of antipathy of which
he trusted nothing would remain except the record of them
is the history of the two countries. But he still main-
tained that if it was the wish of a rich country like ours to
main ain relations of friendahip with a powerful neighbour,
we must be able to repel attack.— (Hear, hear.) He did not
ask the country to arm itself with the means of aggression.
He did net wish to see anything in our arrangements in time
of peace which should not only indicate an intention of ag-
gression, but which any Frenchman could regard as the
means of aggression against France.—( Hear, bear.) We
had no feeling to induce us to take such a course, and he
was the last man to wish that anything they did should be
capable of such an interpretation.—(Hear, hear.) On the
other hand, he did say it was a duty which we owed to
ourselves— which we owed to thou functions which Pro-
vidence had destined the tountry to fulfii—which we owed
to those who were to succeed us, that we should place
the country in a position, and keep it in a position, to
be able to repel attack, if through unforseen and un-
fortunate circumstances stch a necessity should arise.—
(Hear.) It was his (Lord Palmerston's) misfortune to
be always pursued by the Ilononrable Member for Stafford
with that reckless feeling of condemnation which the
Honourable Member had clown to-night in his very elo- '
quent condemnation of him for having interfered and inter-
meddled
in the affairs of other countries. The Honourable
Member had referred to tie affairs of Tahiti and Morocco
in 1844. Now, if the Honourable Member's memory had
been equal to his eloquence—(A laugh)—he would have re-
cellected that these two transactions occurred when the
Government of this country was .adminietered by the late •
Sir Robert Peel.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member
must, therefore, retract the condemnation he passed on the
Government, or must modify in some degree the panegyric
he bestowed on others.—(Hear.) The Honourable Member
had naturally remarked that the proposal that an arrange-
ment should take place between France and England for
the reduction of their navel forces was open to the objec-
tion that these countries were not the only naval powers
in Europe, and that bath might reply to each
other that there were other considerations by which
their respective arrangements must be guided. It was
proper to recollect, when the Hon. Member said that for
a long time the two countries of France and England had
been struggling to outvie cash other in their naval arma-
ments, that the facts were net as the Hon Member had re-
presented. True, the events connected with the expulsion
of the Egyptians from Syria it. 1840 and 1841 had led to an
augmentation of the naval foxes both of France and Eng-
land; but the Administration of Sir Robert Peel, which
succeeded to office after these events, reduced our naval
force to a greater extent than had ever been reduced since
the peace of 1815. We had one sail of the line in the Medi-
terranean, and no more, at the time he referred to. It was
well known, when the Tahiti affair took place, one ship of
the line at Spithead was the whole force at Spithead, and
that that ship was on its way either to the east or west
station of America, and was detained. It could not, there-
fore, have been from any over-armament of naval force in
this country at that time that France was led to make the
exertions she did make. It wee, as was afterwards per-
ceived and stated, that the naval defences were not at all in
keeping with the question whi,eh then agitated the two
countries. It was stated, however, that in 1846 there was a
debate in the French Chamber apon the subject of a great
augmentation of the French navy, to be founded upon the
augmentation of the English navy. But the great naval
force which Englsnd had at that time, and which, according
to his Honourable Friend, was the foundation of the
French armament, was this—ore sail of the ;ine in the
Mediterranean, and one sail of the line caught and
detained at Spithead, instead of being on the coast of
America. Therefore, there was no great naval force on the
part of England which could have occasioned any great
exertion on the part of France. In point of fact the debate,
which it was his (Lord Palmerston's) fortune to hear, turned
upon this, that the Government of France proposed forty sail
of the line as the permanent naval force of the country;
whilst M. Thiers, and those who opposed the Government
wanted to have forty-two; so that it was simply a question
of two sail of the line. The lion. Member for Stafford (Mr.
Urquhart), who saw further into millstones than he (Lord
Palmerston) could pretend to do, appeared to see in that a
most treacherous scheme on his part, "for," said he, " it was
a remarkable fact, and I beg the House to remember it, that
at that moment there was a reconciliation between the
Noble Lord and M. Thiers.—(A laugh.) And what was
that moment? The moment when M. Thiers was recom-
mending a great augmentation of the French navy." And
the Honourable Gentleman added, " Rely upon it, whenever
the French augment their navy they intend to attack
England; therefore the Noble Lord chose that very
moment for a reconciliation with M. Thiers."—(A laugh.)
Now the reconciliation, or rather the renewal of acquain-
tance between himself (Lord Palmerston) and M.
Thiers, he could assure the Honourable Gentleman
was founded on principles very different from those to which
he had been pleased to ascribe it. M. Thiers was then kind
enough to show him that the French, however powerful they
might be, still thought that there were works necessary to
enable them to defend themselves against attack, and that,
although with an immense army and armed population, they
did not disdain to spend large sums of money to secure
themselves against the attacks of foreign powers; and those
works were defensive, because no man could say that fortifi-
cations could march to attack foreign powers.—(4t laugh.)
M. Theirs took him around the fortifications of Paris, which
cost, he believed, something like 12,000,0001. sterling ; and
though there were many different opinions as to the value
and merit of those works, and though he was aware that the
opinion of a non• military man was worth little, yet he
(Lord Palmerston) must say the balance of opinion was
decidedly in favour of their utility, and that they did add
greatly to the defensive strength, and by that means to
the security and the peace of France.--(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) bad
stated, as an illustration of what he would wish, that there
had been concluded between this country and the United
States of America a convention for regulating the amount of
naval force which each power was to maintain upon the in-
ternal waters of North America.—( Hear, hear.) That cer-
tainly was a very wise and good arrangement, and he (Lord
Palmerston) believed it had worked advantageously to both
powers; but, at the same time, he was sure the House would
see there was a great and manifest distinction between inland
lakes and the seas of the world. That distinction bad been
marked broadly by the conduct of the two powers, because
having made it as to the inland lakes, they did not go further
and make it in regard to the seas of the world • but for the
reasons he had already stated, it was manifestly impossible
that England and France could have any hope or expecta-
tion of coming to such an arrangement in regard to their
naval forces, the augmentation or decrease of which was
calculated upon a great variety of circumstances of a totally
different character. And really he should feel that no such
negotiations could he entered into, especially with the obli-
gation of a request from this House, with any possible pros-
pect of coming to a practical result. At the same time, he
was ready to adopt the motion and the speech of the Hon.
Member as the expression of opinion by an influential
Member, responded to, he should hope, by the unanimous
feeling of the whole House of Commons (Cheers)—th at
if common sense actuated those who on both sides had the
management of affairs, England and France must be, as far
as human foresight could extend, friendly towards each
other, and that those mutual suspicions and reciprocal
jealousies which might from time to time have misled the
calculations of the Governments of the two countries would
disappt ar, and mutual confidence take place of reciprocal
distrust.— (Cheers.) At the same time, his Honourable
Friend had a little exaggerated the want of information
which either party possessed in regard to the arrangements
of the other; for it was not necessary that either should
send out those spies whom the Honourable Gentleman spoke
of, inasmuch as in regard to our naval arrangements no-
thing more was necessary than to read the debates which
took place in this House and to look at our estimates, in
order to know exactly how these matters stood here; and
there was no greater secrecy with respect to the naval
arrangements of France. But again he (Lord Palmerston)
said that he accepted with pleasure the speech and the pro-
, position of the lion. Member as the right hand of friendship
' tendered by this country to Foreign Powers; and he agreed
with the Hon. Gentleman in thinking that there could not
have been a more appropriate time than the present for a de-
monstration of this nnture, because we had just, as the lion.
Gentleman bad described it, converted this country into a
temple of peace for the whole world—we had invited the
natives of every civilized land on the face of the earth to
come here, not iu a rivalship of strength or of brute force or
of the arts of human destruction, but to compare the progress
which each nation had made in those arts which constitute
the happiness and the ornament of the human race.—
(Cheers.) It was no less a satisfaction to see the confidence
which had been reposed in this country by those who had
brought themselves and their goods to our great and mighty
Exhibition than it was a source of honest pride to know that
there was nothing which had more struck the strangers
who bad done us the honour of visiting us on this occa-
sion than the spirit of order which they observed to
pervade every rank of society in this country, and that
they had expressed their wonder at see_mg. that respect
for the laws which was a spontaneous feeling from the
highest to the lowest in this land, and which arose very much
perhaps from the excellence of those laws—though he did
not mean to say they were perfect any more than any
other human institution coed be—but the comparative ex-
cellence of those laws which secured to every man, from
the highest to the lowest, the full enjoyment of the'honest
fruits of his industry, and protected him alike against op-
pression from above and insult frognlade betlhowe —4oL:.uudenatnidemgaen-
neral cheering)—he said he was
had taken advantage of this general meeting of the world
here, to proclaim in his place in Parliament those principles
of universal peace which did honour both to him and to the
country in which they were proclaimed ; and if he (Lord
Palmerston) objected to being sent bound and fettered into a
negotiation in which he confessed he could not see his way
practically, it was not that he objected to the end which the
lion. Gentleman proposed to accomplish, but because he
thought that that end was more likely to be accelerated by
the language of the Hon. Gentleman, and by the sentiments
which he and the House were expressing, than it would be
by the particular and specific motion which he had this
evening laid on the table of the House. Upon these
grounds, then, lie trusted his Hon. Friend would be satisfied
with those expressions of apprebation which the sentiments
he had uttered had been met with by the House, and with
the concurrence of her Majesty's Government, in the most
ardent desire that any man in this country, or in the world,
could have, that they should, for this and for all other na-
tions, as far as their influence and power of persuasion might
extend, avert, as long as it might be their lot to
have anything to do with the affairs of this country, the
miseries and calamities of war; and he trusted the Hon.
Gentleman would be content with that, and not press his
motion to a division, which might be liable to misconstruc-
tion, and as a consequence of which it might be thought
that they who opposed his motion differed with him in the
end which he sought to obtain, instead of really objecting to
the means by which he would endeavour to accomplish that
end.—(Hear, bear.) When he (Lord Palmerston) assured
the House that the endeavours of her Majesty's Govern-
ment would be continued in this direction ho must say he
• thought that experience of recent times was highly encouraging
to those who wished for the continuance of peace.—(Hear,
hear.) He quite agreed with the Honourable Gentleman
ithat the diffusion of constitutional Government throughout
1 Europe must tend greatly to the maintenance of general