The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-13 00:00:00

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The e OF COMMONS.
, ‘,PlitAl?EltUtSofEk the Chair at twelve o'clock.
a.ora Ai, _ '
oaths Ind t'LLers and another Host. MaMareit took the
person f seats.
horn that rom the Penitentiary, presented the report
air. , establishment for the last year.
tee on RTEIS brought up the report of the Commit-
lain the Rye Harbour petition, and obtained leave to
41.:4.4 Bill for improving the Harbour of Rye.
lands inIICIDES brought up a Bill for draining march
Ale, e, the county of Kent. It was read a first tint..
ti,n f iIIILLPOTTS obtained liberty to pra sent a pa. 1-
414.4 4 Bill to improve the Chester and Gloucester
lard c ,
Coiarri • SOMERSET brought up the report of tlie
lee,e
t•ittee on the Chepstow-roads petition, and obtained
/yr.' hbrlng in a Bill for their improvement.
ergita ni CARTER presented a ptition from Dir.
laiot
to
Taddy, Treasurer of Sergeant's Inn, praying t
Judge; In'ing in a Bill for the improvement of the
'Mr. harribers.—lleferred to a Committee. _
in -
tah °
tee 4°I:I
(j
GSON brought up the report of the o
itir.po the Clarence Railway Bill.
tnittee ENDARVES brought up the report of the Cornti
Iloste °De the Salta Roads Bill ; also the Ipswich. an
the 'sli:ea(l Bill ; also the report of the Committee
.on
01,, "ati,ea Pier Petition, finding that the standing
Alee,63 ea Pier
complied with: On. that report the Hon.
I4rat u°
swatatned leave to bring in a Bill for erecting a
•
Air , IRISH PETITIONS.
of Ai
r`-'„IIOTE presenteda petition from the borough
Petition Banana against the Irish Coercive Bill. Tlre
statn s signed by 2,951 persons. The petitionersta
ells,'fi that they had heard with horror and alarm t la d
the c:d Passed the other House of Parliament to suspen
haPpa ni,stitution of Ireland, and to establish in that un-
belief i'i'nntrY, martial law, The petitioners stated their
tut!) 2, -ut the only means Of putting an end to the ills-,
Rivea-cee that were taking place in Ireland,f was to
esentr fell justice to the People o. ,
fruit Y' thereby enabling them to enjoy the.
nro; °I their own labour, anal also by. de-
Thej,,ng .II!e iniquitous oliiiiarch;l faction that existed.
.Iyouieleentinoners concluded,' by praying that the Howe
14 that 4arlopt the measures then under consideration.of
reeast,, House, but would resort to the introduction of
Atop' `s lculated to insure the affections of the r
14Poert 4 The Hon. member begged to give his cordial ti ..o be
e prayer of the petition.
Ch
rii '°IiINSON would take that opportunity of stat-
haiel taheein, eon,equence of the. suggestions from. the
r‘h Luc' day, he should withdraw his opposition to
ellitettillens this day, but in doing so he could not but
Whti: ai}°Pe that in consequence of the understanding
IlD'it t(l'ht.'„ta,ken PIACe Hon. Members would be inducedth
' et,otellt•- nito long ' and desultory discussionst
4erse 11°4 of such petitions. He trusted tha such
be
tha last'ttld be adopted this day, anal that it wouldssabry
Ite ,clh'i which Hon•
Members would feel it nue _ n
4,4 ,'"e Rouse for'the favour. If, however, Ho •
''''LltiPi: Were to enter into long discussions on the prteo-
klf4,otript-"tohoese petitions, it would be utterly useless I
bolo Ale lir ceed with the business of the ouse. T re
ia thibber kir Oldham had taken no lessda ,than an
hlt, t-, 'Presentation of petitions the other )-
ke 'CIIII3ETT he had been personally alluded to,
allitl4tetti°:.hserve tl'iaatshe had never been a party to an
ti. Mk,. Ing of the description referred to by the Hon.
"lea the proposition that he had put forward to
41:1 th;:ette, as, thr, the petitions should lie read aloud,
ilth, the whole of them should be printed at full
maetiltit.ie fatentioltshaat. upon such course beeintigtfaodooreedh,altafetwould
hl With Ying a word on any p .
"111 "n res t to the time which he had occupied
14
e " Pee
te
h day the Hon.
a!tehe hod of petitions the ot er d ,
.t-,th: o'4 made a little mistake, as he id not enter-
::tit pi:ton:lse more than 35 minutes. He hailed with
t `litatittli ore the presentation of a petition from so large
°give the as the borough of Marylebone, and begged
Olt 't' petition his meat hearty support.
al
l'eseilttit?CKLEHUmßST presented a petition from
,a7treie":l„,:igned by 2,400 h
Pt teostitul,!l He said that, t opteignhplean ardent stuhpeplorritsehr
ti.3',l•ef vt!'naal liberty, still he could not support the
4-4 Illitl• tna petition, after bearing the case mane out by
teatt:tera, to arm the Government with the power,
,ta by that
it was, which was proposed. to be given
l'‘,ll ;C'at Bill. The petitioners stated tnat. they
that ItLit'ettin delight of the- measures of conciliation which
ets,ev., ttokhe in preparation ; but would opitnion
5,.-so,ii. they were all passed they not go a ithe
re4,l' ''''eving that country from its burdens and.
ote 'tee; and prayed the House not to pass thaßill
11'1)414 friY4 the effect, which measures of conciliation
ate eee.
I.4lllOribEN. said, as the Hon. Member could not
tv"i`r4lrt.tpheN Prayer theof petition which he had. presented
'„l4 all „;) would state, that he most cordially
,aog_reeeta_l
taillisq', statements contained in it. After the ...fide_
tetri -t,yec w'hieh the silk weavers were labouring,
f eli ithe HOO. 'Member he did not expect they would.
e thhi
tliieased with the support' he gave to the piaasstinhge
kit . t easu
air , re, as they would not know how sou
efilit, iu,,Osinade their own.
At 4 Ito 4t' WHITE presented petitio to the same
Iltgh •:°,l the parish of Ardagh, the united parishes of
tii' 411'; AleYdor, and the parish of Edgeworth's
tlit"lr: kNitiv,the parish of Longfo. r.d.
theouetv •s; presented three petitions from parishes in
to he Wot:id()411 Kilkenny, to the saute effect. Only one o. f
cof , e detain the House upon. He considered it
Th facie 't•lr great importance, as it contradicted one of
sh Petit." which Ireland was tried and found guilty.
s obt)‘'h.lt,tri:insera denied that the jurors upon the Carrie
litiir to a,,' Who had voted for conviction, had been
to ,:tine it tl'e country, and stated that five of them were
thei' th,' 44 their own houses unmolested. He was glad
A. fell'aet the People of England had a fellow-feeling with
%,,h 4 ti°,3,:'4l,jeets in Ireland.
'ho:ther t'll' 1144aElt wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman
SitO, W. e jurors who were now living in their
-.
le not those who had voted on the popular4i.
I,ft b' Pl/I‘l
th tai
h ' said " No." Seven out of the twelve had.h
We't4e,,ttiLali,i'llerieti but from causes totally unconnected with
44 t' then, the five who were now in the county,
'oast
,cioa -,nl those who voted for a conviction. he
h..,hen'lei:Y, t1,:t1?,-,BER. said, as an English Member,
the Bill.
-'"t-
4"
t"
English
people
wereagainstpetition,
air.au'', trou?, °Pportunity he would present a
',et art HALEY ,igned, in favour of the Bill. .
I'lliretl" Ne'eti- Presented five petitions from different
eo i-j agai 1 '" in the borough of Newport (Monmouth-
t'f
"Qtre 111.4 the Irish Coercive Bill. lir consequence o
Pr(1,4:d44 aI;7SY, they were withdrawn. The Hon. Member
faOAA 'et e ;- attention of presenting them in an ini-
;lt,r- 41 the course of a few days.
Netlteit°tith GERALD rose to present several petitions
tj'a 41 I', and King's County, against the measure of
Ards ft% r,r. Ireland now before the House.. The peti-
rollt:e• 'l'4,-11'3, nraaansto7n,.D nnikin, the parish of Louth,
and other places,
cleat!'ned 4410 re, Killbridge,. Clare
la ..1 a i.,4 barge number of signatures. These petitions
tv'Et-,' 4 ttj'bV", that as regarded the county of Louth., the
of s Perket,°, light forward by his
.Alajesty's Ministers
lip, tate , "Y unnecessary. The Right Hon. Secretary
anoni''''',h'c'e Ireland, had given the House a statement
hilie the -Ytnou authority of the intimidation of a Juror
gatht:ltot'iZtY of Louth. Now, he could state
.from
t,eeCed by 1e
edge of that county, and from. experience
IN easen,eortatant attendance at the assizes, that no
ee;ttbe e-t
Intirnidation had occurred ; he repeated, there-
!te ,:ity 4tn'erit of the petitioners, that there was no
4h, to at"'") as regarded the county of Louth, for
the Iktalen,?t °I this tyrannical and oppressive measure.
f
i:: ''':ttY ;te il'ade with regard to the backwardness. o
i-
sto4' ('-,til t count to do their duty, he denied
were tit 6 k It hat
1817, Y when the county was
the
?:ots'attligea".ate, of disturbance. that the Judges
theit.hly
alp
of (to ride with a. military escort,
of
lUyk4 , ne county, equal to any in "discth
11-1(7- °f (11; Thad Pendently came forward to arge
Itlit,t)it htea:4tapPeople looked upon this Bill with feel-
11e,.t..hi5,-I't -4 theyent and indignation—of disappoin
ate
hadhad placed confidence in his Majesty's
Plctee 013elt d The . a, At.. Lar, one all they. could to support them.
dis in 4.lest `; exerted his utmost ahility to
fie'bPPoiattrietioo I'fatillinisters in their. present situation.
be d ent for he people was as justly excited as their
4 th • e t ' or thi •
deli' ni; n arid , -us Bill was perfectly unnecessary.
teret'L nev .4d to that unless his Majesty's Ministers made
')shoal
liah
torer'ove the odious impost of tithes, they
')eljo ~,ear re e , , ,
Wisk tt Of 1)? 44,1
ace
restored in that corm-
(ti ' to Pat 41 minds " said this because it was the. ci7-
esr,' i. one , and not because he bad the slightest
Z4Pplied• Ilrh,tP,Ntly of the tithes in his own pocket.—
t'iah.itt4Ltbettite;tieletin't a_nted was that the tithes should., be
}be w.,'o°l stt,4oul4oear thPen9o!es. He was surprised_atmlie..
clad
a: , e ,f
v.euely
nia:..,ht Hon. Member forT . derv,. lea,t ,
Ceose titilLnt n. the right of the clergy to
tion ---(ehe,t ',bat "* He contended that the. poor
bider " tl'e Pa:') II and co.extensive right with the
4144_, t ~,i . was, sorry to see such a disposi-
'l tht tne Right Hon. Baronet to con-
elairoa of the rich. He would

make no observations upon those of the petitions he had
presented, coming from King's County, but would have
the Hon. Member for that county speak upon them.
The petitions having been brought up,
Mr. HARVEY said that he had listened to the state-
ment of the Hon. Gentleman with the greatest interest,
and considered his petitions to be important, not only
from the number of signatures attached to them, but from the
statements they contained. Some of these statements were
in direct contradiction to others urged as the grounds upon
which this measure rested by some of its principal support-
ers, Now it so happened that not one Cabinet Minister was
present to bear these important statements, notwithstand-
ing that, at the beginning of the arrangement they now
acted upon, it was clearly understood that one Member of
the Government should always he present, to listen to the
representations and complaints of the people.—(Hear,
hear.) The petitions just presented by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Louth, and so ably commented upon by him,
would go into the ponderous bag at the table—that long-
home where the petitions of the people went to eternal
rest ; or, if read by the Petition Committee, had their
prayers stated in such a way, as to give no one any idea
of the statements they contained. Under such circum-
stances, it was surely not too much for the people to ex-
pect that one Cabinet Minister should be present.
Mr. FITZGERALD said that he perfectly concurred
in the observations of the Hon. Member for Colchester.
He did not complain of the want of attention to himself
individually, but he certainly had been anxious that some
one of his Majesty's Ministers should he present to listen
to the statement he had to make, particularly as the
other night when the Hon. Member for Sheffield, he (Mr.
Fitzgerald), and others, who attempted to address the
house from the other side were immediately put down,
whilst gentlemen speaking from behind Ministers were
constantly cheered. Au humble individual like himself
could of course only sit down when the opinion of the
House was strongly against him, but he must protest
against the system which was pursued the other night as
unfair. If lie had been allowed a hearing on that occasion,
lie would have stated that he had received a letter from one
of the Deputy Lieutenants, informing him that Sir Patrick
Bellew had written to him (the Deputy Lieutenant) to say
that his part of the country hid become perfectly tranquil.
Ile mentioned this, as the Right Hun. Secretary had laid
great stress upon a letter of Sir Patrick Bellew's, but what
would the House think when he stated that that letter
had been written five weeks previously to that written by
the Deputy Lieutenant, and was for the specific purpose of
being allowed to put the Peace Preservation Act in force,
permission to do which had been granted and acted upon,
with the best possible effect ?..-.(Hear.)
Mr. NICHOLAS FITZSIMON said that five of these
petitions having been presented from the county he repre-
sented, be begged leave to add his support to their prayers.
They were numerously and respectably signed. They as-
serted that their county was in a state of tranquillity,
notwithstanding it had been stated in that House that it
was in a state of disturbance. Ile would appeal to his
Noble Friend opposite whether from what had been done
on numerous trials the law was not sufficient as had been
demonstrated, to put down those disturbances, if it were to
be put vigorously into execution. He had received informa-
tion from most respectable private quarters, that that county
was not in the state of disturbance which had been repre-
sented in that house. One of the letters which be had
received, asked whether it was not distressing that able
bodied young men who had aged parents depending upon
them for support, were going about the country unem-
ployed, notwithstanding they were willing cheerfully to
give their labour for sixpence a day.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile thought some of his Majesty's Ministers ought to
have been in their place to have heard these state-
ments, and to have listened to petitions which were so
numerously presented against this coercive Bill.—(Hear,
hear.) But be was not surprised that they should absent
themselves when, notwithstanding all the petitions that
had been presented in their presence, and all that, they were
perfectly sensible, were in the course of presentation, they
were determined to pass this Bill against the feelings and
universal wishes of the community at large.
Lord OXMANTOWN rose merely in consequence of
the direct allusion which had been made to him by his
Honourable Friend.—(Hear, hear.) His honourable
Friend had not contradicted one single fact which lie
(Lord 0.) had stated the other night. The Hon. Mem-
ber had stated that his county was in a state of peace,
notwithstanding, within the last month, and almost at
the Hon. Member's own door, thirteen stand of arms had
been taken, and one man murdered.—(Hear.)
Mr. PERRIN said, that with the exception that this
Bill went to take away trial by Jury, he most heartily
concurred with it. He lamented the state of the country had
created the necessity of bringing in such a Bill ; but how..
ever reluctantly he did it, he should feel bound, in the
course of the further discussion it might undergo, to give
it his support.
Mr. H. GRATTAN said that he held in his hands a
number of petitions, which had come to him from 18 or
20 different places—principally from parishes in the
counties of Meath, Clare, and Mayo—all against the
Bill, and praying that it might not pass into a law. One
of the petitions in particular deserved the attention
of the House.—(Hear.) The petitioners deplored
the occurrence of several murders, but at the same
time stated that there were great and severe
causes for all the outrages which had been committed,
amongst which stood most prominently the conduct of
the landlords and the Grand Jury cess. On Monday
last, five individuals had been found guilty of Whiteboy
offences, and sentenced to punishment ; and it was pre-
posterous for the Noble Lord to suppose, that the law, as
it present stood, was not capable of reaching those or any
other offences committed in Ireland, provided it was put
into active execution.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord com-
plained that the laws could not be enforced. That
statement had been answered, because, in the very case
to which he had alluded it had been enforced, and over-
taken the offenders. It was then to be hoped that the
Noble Lord would this night abandon that part of the
Bill, which went to the formation of courtsmartial, and to
destroy the trial by jury. This was not a time, however,
for him to enter into these facts, notwithstanding there
were other points which he should have been glad to
enter into, having been urged to do so by the petitioners.
He could not, however, help asking what had been done for
the people of Ireland ? Upon inquiries that had already
taken place respecting the state of Ireland, the Lord Lieu-
tenant himself stated that it was absolutely necessary to
give employment to the people. That employment had
not been given. Instead of giving it, they proposed to
lock up the Irish people for twelve or fourteen hours out
of the twenty-four. Would it not be much more reasonble,
if the law was violated, to call in the sheriff? The sheriff
would do more good with his powers, properly exercised,
than the Right Hon. Secretary would do in scattering
his army throughout Ireland, for the purpose of collecting
pigs and geese, and driving them to the different markets,
to be sold for tithes. The intention was to pass this
Bill, for the purpose of arming the Executive with anti-
Constitutional powers—powers which would be extremely
dangerous, and would go far beyond any authority which
any set of individuals ought to have. For his own
part, he could not understand what benefit -this coun-
try was to have from being united with Ireland, if
Ireland was to be put without the pale of English
laws. He should feel himself bound to take an opportu-
nity of expressing his sentiments on this subject this
night; and, while he was willing to give every facility
to the operation of laws to protect life and property, he
should be equally pertinacious in opposing any law which
went to the destruction of the constitutional rights of a
vast number of his Majesty's subjects.
Sir E. WILMOT presented a petition from the Magis-
trates of the county of Warwick, acting in the Birmingham
division, and numerous trades-people and shopkeepers, all
rate payers of Birmingham, regretting, and expressing
their heartfelt sorrow, that some measures were necessary
for the purpose of putting an end to the disturbances that
existed in Ireland, and stating their reliance upon the
House to adopt such measures as would really redress the
grievances under which that country laboured, and by
which they would secure to every class of his Majesty's sub-
jects good government, and by which they would have se-
curity for their persons and protection for their property.
The Hon. Member had great satisfaction in supporting the
prayer of the petition ; and, in doing so, he trusted
that no gentleman in that House would think that, however
unwilling to allay the grievances of Ireland, as he had
passed a long life in endeavouring to promote that object,
he would take the present opportunity of answering an
appeal which had been made by the Irish Gentlemen on
the ether side of the House to the English Gentlemen
sitting on this. They had more than once asked if the
English Gentlemen would support his Majesty's Mi-
ni, tees in passing an Algerine law for Ireland--

Sir E. WILMOT had only said that he agreed to the
principle of the Bill—not to its details. If he thought
that by supporting Ministers he was imposing chains
upon others, he would be the last in the world to vote along
with them ; but the idea of liberty which he enter-
tained differed widely from that entertained by the Right
Hon. Member opposite. He did not call that liberty
where a man claimed freedom of action for himself but
denied it to every other person.
Mr. FINN said, that nothing could prove so well the
ignorance with which legislative measures connected with
Ireland were passed in that House, as the sentiments ex-
pressed by the Right Hon. Baronet, when he said that he
and the Members that acted with him, were the people
that had raised the storm, and that it was in their power
at once to allay it. The people of Ireland would entertain
their opinions—their present excited state, so long as
they were oppressed in the manner in which they were at
present; they would do so, though he, and all that acted with
him, changed their opinions to-morrow. It had been made
the subject of a complaint in that House that a portion
of the people of England were unable to earn two shillings
a-day, then how could it be expected that people were to
be quiet who were not for more than one half the year in
the receipt of more than 6d. a-day ? That House hail
paid no attention to the real interests of Ireland, and now
to allay these dissensions, which were the natural result of
misgovernment, they were going to pass one of the most
atrocious Bills that ever had been brought into the British
House of Commons. He could assure the Hon. Baronet
that it was not in the power of 14 or 15 individual agi-
tators, as they were called in that House, to allay that
spirit that was now abroad among the people.
Mr. DUGDALE had been requested to support the
prayer of the petition, which he did with pleasure.
When the House found a petition of that kind come from
a town like Birmingham, signed by all the magistrates,
the high and low bailiffs, and 1,400 of the most respecta-
ble inhabitants, it surely might be received as an answer
to the oft-repeated assertion, that the people of England
were wholly against this Bill.
Mr. ATTWOOD would only observe that the petition
did not support the Bill now before the House, but merely
prayed that a Bill might be passed which would put down
the disturbances now prevalent in Ireland. If he had
supposed that that Bill would have that effect, it should
have had his most hearty support ; but so far from that
being his opinion, he conceived that where one life was
now sacrificed, a hundred would be after the passing of
that measure. The petition also prayed for redress of the
grievances of Ireland, but he saw no such intention in the
Bill, nor did lie give his Majesty's Ministers any credit
for what they had proposed. What was the paltry church
cess which they proposed to abolish compared to the great
grievances under which the country laboured ? He saw
by the papers of that morning, that a most respectable
Roman Catholic gentleman had bee❑ most cruelly and
barbarously murdered, not from any political cause,
but merely because he distrained for rent,
thereby showing that the people must be
most grievously oppressed to have brought their minds to
such a most depraved state. He did not mean to say a
word against the respectability of the names attached to the
petition, but would only observe that the magistrates whose
names were to it, were county magistrates—that there
had been ❑o public meeting—that be had looked over the
petition, and had only seen the names of two merchants,
and five bankers. As respectability was now calculated
by wealth, he would undertake to produce a petition on
the other side of the question, that would contain five
names for one that this one did, which would be respect-
able, according to that acceptation of the term.

Mr. METHUEN said he was convinced that some
legislative enactment was necessary for the tranquillization
of Ireland. If his mind had not been made up before, he
would have been convinced by the speech of the Hon.
Member on the floor (Mr. Finn). He hoped that Minis-
ters intended to act by Ireland in the same spirit as they
did for England, otherwise he would not give them his
support towards making that Bill into a law. However,
he conceived that the law must be made paramount, and
protection afforded both for life and property.
Mr. GRATTAN would take the Hon. Member at his
word. The Ministers were not only taking away the
protection from life and property, but were actually rob-
bing the people of their liberty by this Bill, which, he
again asserted, was to facilitate the collection of tithes.
Within the last fortnight his Majesty's Attorney-General
for Ireland had actually put up to sale the chattel
interest of a tenant for the arrear of tithes—thus
turning out the tenant upon the world. After that, could
they wonder—was not that adding fuel to flame ? He
would state one case that had come to his own knowledge.
In the county of Waterford a sum of 41. 13s. 4d. tithe
money, was sought to be recovered by process. The costs
of such recovery amounted to the sum of 1051. ; was this
acting in the same spirit towards Ireland as they did
towards England ? But would the House believe that after
all the tenant actually produced the receipt for the
41. 13s. 4d. ? He would say, that such proceedings were
enough to drive men mad, and he would claim the vote of
the Hon. Member against the Bill.
Dr. BALDWIN said the Hon. Member on the oppo-
site side bad blamed a few Members on that side of the
House as being the cause of the disturbances which now
reigned ; and, if he recollected right, he also stated
they were led by one man.—(Cries of " No, no.")
He protested for himself, as he believed he might for his
friends, against being supposed to be blindly led by any
individual. They were not the instrument of any man's
ambition, nor the tools of any leading Agitator, but
honestly, independently, and according to their own con-
viction sought to re-establish the tranquillity of Ireland,
by obtaining the full enjoyment of its rights and liberties.
Mr. GEORGE LAMB said that having been alluded
to by the Hon. Member opposite, both as a Member of
the present Government and as Member for Dungarvon,
he did not know in which character the question was put
to him. He begged to say, however, that be had re-
ceived no intelligence from ;Vaterford of the result of the
proceedings instituted for the recovery of tithes,
or he should have been happy to have answered
the question. He had, however, this day received tidings
of a very different nature from that quarter—namely,
tidings of the commission of u most horrible murder. if
the Hon. Gentleman opposite and his friends were exerting
themselves to allay the disturbances of Ireland, be regretted