The Sun.
London, England, 1834-07-19 00:00:00

Abingdon, signed by all the magistrates and brewers against
the Beer Act Amendment Bill.
Mr. Sergeant SPANKIE presented a petition from St.
George, Bloomsbury, in support of the Church.
The LORD ADVOCATE presented petitions from Bre-
chin and Kirkcudbright, in favour of the Bankruptcy Bill.
Col. WOOD presented a petition from Derby, praying for
the establishment of a national church. The petitioners
argued that religion was not like other articles of commerce
where the supply was regulated by the demand.—( Hear,
and a laugh.)
Mr. CA YLEY presented petitions from places in York,
very numerously signed, complaining of agricultural distress.
Mr. B A INE S supported the prayer of the petition.
Mr. W., ELLIS presented a petition, most numerously
signed, by beer-retailers in Leicester, against the Beer Act
Amendment Bill.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
Mr. HUME wished to put a.question to the Noble Lord
upon the report of the Ecclesiastical Commission, and to
know when that report would be laid before the House. -When
he put the same question a few days since, he was told the re-
port was presented to the House of Lords.
Lord ALTHORP said he hail. no objection to the report
being laid before the House, but the Hon. Member was mis-
taken in supposing that it had been presented to the House of
Lords.
Mr. RICE TREVOR presented petitions from Breck-
nock and other places in Wales, in support of the Church.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS.
Mr. D. RONA YEN wished fto know from the Secretary
of Ireland whether it was the intention of the Government to
lay the Report of the Commissioners upon Municipal Corpora-
tions before the House this session.
Mr. LITTLETON said, that as soon as the report was
made it would be laid before the House, but he did not expect
that the report would be laid before his Majesty before No-
vember next.
Mr. C. BULL ER wished to know whether Government
was prepared to give an assurance to the House that it was
their intention to bring forward early next session a measure
founded upon it.
Lord ALTHORP said it was the intention of Government,
as soon as the report was before the House, to take into con-
sideration the state of municipal corporations ; and he con-
sidered that it would be their duty to bring forward a measure
founded upon that report next session.—( Hear, hear.)
DIVISIONS OF THE HOUSE.
L -srd EBRINGTON, in rising to bring forward his mo-
tion for rescinding the report of the Committee upon the
mode of taking the divisions of the House, said that he had
come prepared to state his objections to the plan which had been
tried for the first time last night. He hoped however to be
relieved from the necessity of doing so, as he understood that
the Hon. Member for St. Albans, as well as his Hon. Friend
the Member for Bridport, who was in some degree the author
of the. plan, would accede to his motion. This would save
him the necessity of going into any details. He should not
be deterred from doing his duty in consequence of the obloquy
that might be thrown on him and others on this subject relative
to the votes they might give in that House. When the proper
opportunity arrived he should be prepared to state his opinions
without fear of any obloquy that might arise from any
quarter.—( Hear.) In bringing forward a motion for saving
the time of that House, he thought he should be committing a
great error in taking up any length of their time, as it would
but afford an additional illustration of the disadvantages of the
proposition. He concluded by moving his resolution.
The SPEAKER having inquired who seconded the motion,
Mr. WARBURTON rose and said he begged to second
the resolution—(" Hear, hear, hear I") If the result of the
measure was to be judged by;its success last night, it would have
attained by no means the success that it merited. But
there was a difference between the plan and the manner
of its execution. He (Mr. W.) felt like an enraged musician
who had prepared a splendid piece of music to be performed
by a first-rate musician, when there had been nothing but
the, merest catgut-scrapers.—(Loud cheering, and laughter.)
The success of the plan depended upon two things—first, the
velocity with which the names were called out, and, secondly,
the velocity with which the names were taken down. Owing
to various obstructions, which he would not now more particu-
larly allude to, there was no expedition in either part of the
plan, whether in the execution of the first part of the
plan—the calling the names, the obstruction was owing
to any want of readiness on the part of any of his Ho-
nourable Friends around him he would not now say,
but they had had a second trial this morning.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) The committee up stairs had predicted that
as many as one hundred names could be taken down
in five minutes. This morning he (Mr. W.) had calculated
that it took five minutes and a half to take down 100 names, and
that was not bad for a2d rehearsal. He begged to assure his
Hon. Friend on his left that he did not mean to call him a cat-
cut scraper. On the contrary he believed him to be a perfect
Paganini. He (Mr. W. ) believed that his Hon. Friend would
be enabled, if the writer kept pace with him, to call out 100
names in three minutes; but the writer had not the flying
fingers necessary on such an occasion. From this second
rehearsal, should the Committee choose to submit the plan to
another trial, he (Mr. W.) did not anticipate such unfa-
vourable results. He was perfectly willing, not however for
the reasons stated by the Noble Lord, to assent to the propo-
sition that had just been submitted to the House.
Mr. WARD would feel it to be his duty to agree to the mo-
tion for the present Session, but lie was quite sure that next
Session it must come under discussion, and then be fully con-
sidered._( No, no, arid cheers). He most distinctly under-
took that it should.-4 Cheers). The House had already
pledged itself, and afforded its public sanction to a plan for
giving publicity to its divisions.
Mr. HUME had felt rather disappointed in the statement
of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Warburton), because he really
thought that his lion. Friend's expression of cat-gut scraper
was intended to apply to him, and that he intended to repre-
sent himself as the Paganini. If he had been the party to have
been characterized as the performer, he should certainly have
considered himself entitled to a rehearsal, before judgment
had been pronounced upon his performance. The fact was,
that yesterday was the rehearsal, and he had to state to the
House, that there were no clerks prepared to take down
the names in the manner in which they ought. He pro-
ceeded in the manner directed by the Chairman, in calling
the names, and when he had got to the tenth he was called
back by the clerk, who said he had not then got down the se-
cond name. When he had gone on over 20 or 30 names,
he was again called back by the writer, who was a long
way behind, and so the thing went on. He would not therefore,
say there was a failure in the plan, because the failure rested
111 the assistance with which they had been supplied. The
Right Hon. M emsfaber for Tamworth might Continue to demon-
stratehissatiction as he now had been doing, but he
u tell that Right Hon. Member the time would come
when
the music would be on the Right Hon. Gentleman's
other d
side. He thought he had a right to appeal to the
lcoci
Noble Lord opposite, that the plan proposed now was not in
reality different to the one proposed by himself_ Ought there
not, therefore to be a room built to the eastward where they now
were, that would contain as many as the lobby, that the
plan might be properly carried into execution ? Hon. Mem-
bers might laugh, but he could assure them that they were
never more deceived, if they supposed the plan would notbe gone
on with. He would, however, take the liberty of putting
it to the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government
whether there ought not to be a new House of Commons at
once built, properly calculated for the accommodation of the
Members.—( Immense cheering.) It was unjust to
Honourable Members to condemn them to be in the
pestilential air of the present House for ten or twelve flours
a-day. The Noble Lord who had brought forward this motion
was increasing in number of years as well as himself—
(Laughter)—and was not now so able to bear night-work
as he had been, any more than himself.—( Laughter.) What
he had said was quite correct, and he was quite sure
the Noble Lord must be sensible of it.---( Repeated laugh-
ter.) If the noble Lord would come forward with a motion
for the building of a new House, lie would in an instant have
at least three-fourths of the number of the members of the
House to support him.—(Hear, hear.) An expenditure
of the sum of 25,0001., or 30,000/., in building a house
capable of properly accommodating the Members, would not
be worth a consideration.—( Cheers.) At least 200 Members
had asked him lately to bring forward this subject again before
the House, but he had declined to do so until after he could
have an intimation that it would meet with the approbation
of his Majesty's Government. It was really too bad
that there should not be a commodious and convenient
House of Commons, and that they should be obliged
to put up with the present House, in which they
were under the necessity of shuffling through with the business
just in any way they could. There was scarcely a vestry-
room, and certainly not a room belonging to any public com-
pany that was not more commodious and convenient for those
wholiad to meet there than was the House of Commons.
Sir R. PEEL had objected to the present mode of taking
dvisions as lie did not think the public would be satisfied with
it, and its tendency would be to multiply divisions. Whenever
there was any difference of opinion, the minority would press
for a division, the only object of which would be to waste time.
Lord ALTHORP was quite satisfied, from the experiment
already tried, that it was utterly impossible that the mode
suggested by the Hon. Member for Middlesex could be acted
upon with advantage. The Hon. Member was of opinion, that
the attempt was made under unfavourable circumstances ; but
he (Lord Althorp) could not agree with him. He admitted
there was one unfavourable circumstance, which was, that of
the clerk who was employed to take down the names not being
in the habit of fast writing. But, on the other hand, it should
be remembered, that in one of the divisions, there were not
more than 106 members in the House, which afforded very
great facilities. If the plan was not found to succeed, when
the division consisted of so small 'a number, what would be
their situation in taking some of the larger divisions, in which
300 or 400 members would have to be counted, and their
names taken down.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the sug-
gestion to build an additional lobby or a new house, that ques-
tion had been already before the House, and he then said no-
thing from which it could be inferred that his Majesty's Go-
vernment was disposed to forward such a proposition., Unless,
therefore, a large majority of the House desired the change,
he thought that the Ministry ought not to support it. He
entertained considerable doubts whether the building of an ad-
ditional lobby would lead to a saving of time. The time con-
sumed in taking divisions had been already considerably di-
minished by the late arrangement, under which the minority
went into the lobby, while the majority remained in the House.
If they had an additional lobby, the majority would have to
quit the House as well as the minority, and this would be pro-
ductive of a further loss of time.—( Hear, hear )
Colonel EVANS regretted that the Noble Lord did
not accede to the proposal of the Honourable Member
for Middlesex.—( Hear.) As to the loss of time, that was
stated to 'arise from taking down the names of Members, lie
thought that the proposed plan would be a saving of time.

But the important question was, were the Members of
that House to be responsible to their constituents, and how
were they to be responsible if the votes which Members gave
were not authenticated ? It was said thatt half a minute had
been lost upon the last occasion, but let the House recollect
how many minutes, hours, and days had been lost upon much
less important matters.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord EBRINGTON remarked on the total failure of the
experiment that was made last night.
Mr. HUME—Give it another trial.—(No, no.) He had
a great mind to divide now.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord EBRINGTON was quite ready to admit the respon-
sibility of the representative, and the propriety of his votes
being known ; but the question was whether the publicity ob-
tained at present was not sufficient for all practical purposes ?
Constituents had the means of knowing, under the existing sys-
tem, what the votes of their representatives-were on any great
occasion..---( Hear.) One of the first duties unquestionably
was to take care that they did not throw any unnecessary ob-
stacles in the way of public business.
•
Lord EBRINGTON replied.
The motion was then agreed to.
IRISH COERCION BILL.

Lord ALT HORP said he had now to bring under the con-
sideration of the House the propriety of renewing in part the
Bill for the Suppression of Local Disturbances in Ireland,
which had been passed during the last session. It was neces-
sary shortly to state the grounds upon which it was proposed
to the House to renew those parts of the Bill which it was
the intention of the Government to renew, and lie should also
give some reasons—though he did not think that to the
House of Commons it would be very necessary to go great
lengths to give reasons—( Hear, hear)—for not calling for
more extensive powers than were called for by the present
Bill.---( Cheers.) The state of Ireland last year, as it was
brought under the consideration of the House, was such,
that outrages of the most grievous description existed.
in different parts of that country. Under these circum-
stances the Government' felt that they could not be
answerable for the peace of the country, unless they
were invested with powers beyond the ordinary powers
of the Constitution to suppress those outrages. Many
of those gentlemen who were opposed to the Bill when it was
introduced, admitted that outrages existed of such a nature as
to require extended powers. That Bill having been passed,
almost immediately afterwards the provisions of its enactments
were applied to the county of Kilkenny. This was one of
those counties in which it appeared, when the question was
under discussion in the House, outrages were most frequent.
The effect in Kilkenny of applying the provisions of the Bill
to that county has been, that whereas the number of outrages
from the beginning of the month of April, 1832, to the be-
ginning of April, 1833, were 1,590 • and from the beginning
of April, 1833, to the beginning Of April, 1834, they were
only 331.—( Hear, hear.) This is the statement of the effect
which the application of the Bill to the disturbed districts in
Ireland produced, as ascertained by the experience of last
session. ?a Some time elapsed after this before the provisions of
the Bill were tried in any other part of Ireland. On the 14th
of April, 1834 (one twelvemonth after the Bill had passed), it
was applied to some parts of the King's county. On the sth
of May, 1834, it was applied to some parts of the county of
Westmeath ; and on the 9th of June, 1834, it was extended to
some parts of the county of Galway. Such, then, has been
the result of the application of the principle recognized by
Parliament in the course of last session,—the principle
that in cases where outrages existed it was right to apply
those powers to prevent their extension and continuance.
We have had the experience of last year, and we find
that the application of the pTovisions of the measure has been
attended with the most beneficial consequences. There are
also three other districts in Ireland to which the provisions of
this Bill have been lately applied ; and it is a question for the
House, whether it would be desirable to let the present Act
expire, or whether Hon. Gentlemen will not rather think
themselves called on in protection of the peaceable interests
in Ireland to renew the Bill.—( Cheers.) The proposition I
have to make is, that we re-enact those parts of the Bill
which refer to the proclaimed districts, with the addition of
two clauses of the Bill for the protection of witnesses, and to
prevent signals for the collection of tumultuous assemblies.—
( Hear, hear.) The powers which the Bill will place at the
disposal of his Majesty's Government will be these :—The
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will have the power to proclaim
such districts as are disturbed ; and after such proclamation of
a district, all assemblies will be unlawful assemblies, unless
held with the leave of the Lord Lieutenant of the county, the
Sheriff of the county, or the chief Magistrates. The Bill will
prevent persons from being out of their houses, in proclaimed
districts, from sunset till sunrise, unless on a lawful occasion.
Lists of the inmates arc to be placed in the hands of the chief
constable, and those lists are also to be attached to the doors
of the houses. Power is to be given to require persons to
show themselves, being called on at night to do so. It is to
be a misdemeanour for persons to have arms in their pos-
session, except lawfully, in proclaimed districts. In addition
to these enactments, the bill will contain the clauses to which
I have before alluded, for the protection of witnesses ; and the
making of signals with a view to the collection of tumultuous
assemblies, is to be deemed a misdemeanour. I am aware
that such a measure as this is a measure going far beyond
what the constitution of the country ought to allow ; and I
will add, that it most certainly ought not to be passed unless
the case be one in which the necessity is admitted and appa-
rent.—( Cheers.) Still less ought it to be passed for any
long period. I propose to renew the act, therefore, only till
the first of August in next year. I admit that it is well worthy
the consideration of Parliament, whether some permanent
alteration in the law ought not to take place, to prevent the re-
currence, if possible, of such outrages as have compelled his
Majesty's Government to come down to this House to ask for
extraordinary powers. That is a question, however, of such
great difficulty, and involving so much serious consideration,
that I think it impossible any gentleman can conceive we could
entertain it at this period of the session. It may be taken
into consideration before another session ; but at this time what
is wished is present protection against the outrages to which
the peaceful part of the population of Ireland are subject. I
do not think it necessary for me to take up time by going
into details that are lying on the table of the House, because
I do not expect to find it urged that in the present state of"
Ireland it would be safe to allow this act to expire, as far as
the proposed provisions of this act go. Ido not believe that
any gentleman acquainted with that country would say that
the effect would be otherwise than most disastrous in those
parts which are now under proclamation.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear I") To let the act expire then, would be most
disastrous, I say, to those districts proclaimed ; but I am also
afraid that we cannot calculate it may not be necessary to apply
the Bill to other parts of the country.—(Hear, hear.) On
these grounds I shall submit to the House the proposition with
which I shall have the honour to conclude. I now consider it
necessary to allude shortly to the grounds on which I do not
propose to renew the whole of the act of last session ; and the
first ground that I shall state is one which I am sure will be
considered a sufficient argument in this House. I will say
then, that if his Majesty's Government are prepared to be re-
sponsible for the government of Ireland, without demanding
powers beyond those they now call for, I cannot suppose any
individual will contend that additional powers ought to be
forced on us.—( Cheers.) I cannot think it necessary for me
to say more on that part of the subject. But it is necessary, I
admit, to state to the House why it is that his Majesty's Go-
vernment are not prepared to bring forward their proposition
in a different form from the present.--( Hear, hear.) I need
not tell Honourable Gentlemen that in the papers laid
on the table of the House, it appears that the recom-
mendation of the Irish Government in April last was for the
renewal of this act without the omission of the parts to which
I have alluded. Up to the latter end of June, I think to the
23d of June, his Majesty's Ministers had no reason to believe
—nor any portion of his Majesty's Ministers—that they would
feel themselves bound to object to the renewal of any part,
except the courtmartial clauses, of the Act of last year ; but
at that time, in consequence of a communication of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, in answer to a communication made to
him by my Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Littleton), Its -has been
before explained by him, a different view was entertained.
The ground on which my Right Hon. Friend made that com-
munication, I believe, was this. Though there had been con-
siderable agitation during the winter, a long cessation—a ces-
sation of several weeks—occurred, during which no such agi-
tation had taken place. To that fact the papers laid on the
table of the House, in justification of the renewal of those por-
tions of the Act which I propose to renew, bear ample testi-
mony. Under these circumstances, my Hon. Friend applied
to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to ask him whether he
continued of opinion that such parts of the Act as related to
public meetings were necessary. The Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, in a confidential letter to the Noble Lord at the head
of his Majesty's Government (Earl Grey), stated, that if it
should be for the convenience of the progress of business—if

it should be for the convenience of the Government in this
country—he should be prepared to go on without the additi-
onal powers. On these grounds, as the House is aware, I
thought that if the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, under any cir-
cumstances, was prepared to go on without such powers, it was
not proper that such powers should be called for.—(cheers.)
As I stated on a former occasion, this letter was liable to be
interpreted according to the opinions of individuals. The
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland having stated that the grounds on
which he was ready to undertake the Government without the
powers were with a view to the convenience of the Government
at home, it did not necessarily follow that the Noble Lord had
altogether changed the opinions he formerly held on this
subject. It can hardly be necessary for me to go further
into this part of the question ; of what took place—of
the consequences of these circumstances, the House is well
aware.—(Hear, hear.) The question comes before us
again ; and after what has transpired, I think there is no
Gentleman in this House, whatever his opinions may be,
who can believe it possible that any Government, I care
not of whom composed, could hope to pass through this
House a bill for the renewal of the clauses relating to public
meetings in Ireland ?—( Cheers.) The question, then, for
those Members of his Majesty's Government to consider, who
had the misfortune to differ on this point with their colleagues,
was, whether it was right and prudent to propose such a mea-
sure as would certainly have been rejeCted by this House? or
whether it was not their duty to alter it to the extent of adopt-
ing only those parts of the bill which I now propose to renew
for the protection of the peaceably disposed against the per-
petrators of outrages ? But suppose it should be found that
myself, and those who agree with me, are mistaken as to the
necessity of the clauses being renewed—if we find that when
those clauses have expired, an occasion of necessity should arise,
as we before proved Qurselvcs ready in a case of necessity to
support such clauses, we shall again be ready to give them the
same support. This is not a question of a difference of prin-
ciples. Because, as my Right Hon. and Noble Friends say,
they would not propose this or any other measures going
beyond the limits of the Constitution, unless they were
con-
vinced that a case of extreme necessity was made t_
.
5o I
repeat, if the case of necessity should again aris:,ni shall be

ready to concur in the renewal of the clauses. Tne question
is now one as to whether, at the present time,, the necessity
exists for these clauses or not ? And when I find the British
Government ready to go en without the clauses, when also I
see nothing in thug pagers to justify us in renewing them, I
am borne to the cAneleoion that the case of necessity is not
made out. I know it tnay be said as regards the deficiency of
proof, that the reason why proof is not forthcoming is because
outrages have been prevented by the act being in force, and I
am not prepared to say that such an argument may not be
well founded, but I should be sorry to act on it, because I do
not see any limit to its operation.—( Cheers.) In conclusion,
I have only to declare that these arc the grounds on which I
have taken the liberty of submitting a statement to the House
of the course proposed by his Majesty's Government—
( Cheering.) The Noble Lord then shoved for leave to bring
in a Bill to renew and amend an Act for the suppression of
local disturbances in Ireland.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. LEFR 0 Y said that allusion had been made to a con-
fidential communication from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland
addressed to Earl Grey, yet a bill had been brought in of a
totally different character.—( Hear, hear.) He desired to
know on what ground it was that a majority of the Govern..
ment, who had pledged themselves to a more extended bill
than the one now proposed as necessary to the peace of. Ire-
land and the security of property, had changed their minds and
ventured to recommend the present measure.---( Cheers from
the Opposition.) He further desired to know the date of the
letter written to Lord Wellesley, and who wrote that letter?
—(Loud cries of " Hear.") The evidence on which the re-
newal of the act was called for, represented the condition of
Ireland to be more aggravated as regarded crime and outrage
than it was when the powers given by the existing act were
called for.—( Cries of " No, no," and " hear.") He admit-
ted there was an improvement in the parts to which the measure
had been applied, but he spoke generally. He feared the motives
of his Majesty's Government might be misinterpreted ; it might
be imputed to them that they changed their opinions, not
with a view to the interests of Ireland, but to escape a 'diffi-
culty. It was of the utmost consequence that a Government
should not lose the confidence of the country. He spoke not
of the confidence of a party—of those who ran about the town
getting names.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) He spoke
of the confidence of the independent portion of the nation.—
(Laughter.) He doubted whether another change which had
taken place on a great occasion—he alluded to that on which
the Roman Catholic measure was introduced—had not been
productive of injurious consequences; but the administration
of the Duke of Wellington was at that time in the plentitude
of its power, and it could not be suspected that any of the
members of that Government changed their opinions with a
view to secure their continuance in office.—( Shouts of laugh-
ter.) Motives,,however, had been and would be assigned for
the changes of opinions they now witnessed—the desire of ob-
taining power and place—the wish to prop up a tottering ad-
ministration had been assigned. He, however, did not ven-
ture on such charges; he would not take so ungenerous a
course.--( Hear. )
Mr. O'CONNELL—He would only implore the House for
one moment to consider the wretched state of Ireland. They
had just heard the representative of the Protestant Clergy of
Ireland, the representative of a Protestant University in Ire-
land, strenuously urging his complaints ; and was it that the
liberties of his countrymen had been taken away ? was it that
their constitution had been violated was it that they were to
be enslaved ? Oh no : it was because they had too much of
liberty ; it was because they had not been enslaved enough.
That country which, besides supporting its own clergy, paid
millions for the support of the Protestant Church in Ireland,
and those whom the I [on. and Learned Gentleman represented,
were the very individuals who fed and fattened on the produce
of the spoil.—( Cheers.) He never felt indignation yet equal
to the indignation which he felt now at seeing the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman presuming to come forward to slander the
people of Ireland.--(Loud cheers, and cries of " Order.")
Lord STORMONT rose to order. He said it appeared to
him that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was about to use
language which was contrary to the rules of that House.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Noble Lord appeared to be
invested with the spirit of prophecy. The complaint was not
that he was disorderly, but that he was about to be so ; the
fact was, the Noble Lord was himself disorderly, in antici-
pating and interrupting him.—( Hear, hear.) He was ex-
pressing what he trusted was honest indignation that any man,
representing such a class as the Protestant clergy of Ireland,
should express his regret that there was not tyranny enough.
Was it not sufficient to excite indignation, to hear the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, who was a Doctor of Civil Law,
and a Doctor of Common Law—( Cheers)—he need not go
to Oxford, where ,there were such select doings, and where •
they exercised so much discretion in giving degrees—he was
dubbed Doctor already ?—( Laughter.) Was it not enough
to excite his indignation, to hear that Hon. and Learned
Gentleman call on his Majesty Ministers—for what? Why,
to limit the Constitution. Every man stood on the Constitu-
tion of his country, as he stood on his innocence. He who
would make a case against it, must be prepared with proof.
The course of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was false in
theory, and bad in feeling. He (Mr. O'Connell) threw him-
self on the House, and begged them to consider the case of
his unfortunate country—its centuries of confusion, discord,
and discontent—its centuries of blood—and all to maintain a
Church over a people, with which the people held no sym-
pathy. He regretted that the Noble Lord had not brought
forward this measure quite in She spirit in which he (Mr.
O'Connell) thought he ought. But he would not now
renew any portion of the controversy which the mea-
sure occasioned last year. He was content to let the past
be buried in oblivion, and to look to the future. (Hear,
hear.) He saw a new Cabinet before him, and he hoped
and trusted, though the present was not a very decided
step, that he might take it as an indicative of an intention
to do something for the amelioration of Ireland—he
hoped and trusted he might consider it a symptom of better days
approaching. The very party who sent the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman here, were those who had an interest in the perpe-
tration of the old abuses. All the instruments of the Govern-
ment were composed of the same materials. Even the princi-
pal law adviser of the Crown. if he were here, would no doubt
second, with extraordinary zeal, the views of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, whatever the anxiety of that Hon. and
Learned Gentleman to abridge the liberties of the Irish people.
They had had some promising changes of Government, but
the system was bad. All the official personages in Ireland
had belonged to the ancient party, whence it followed that these
who were at the head of affairs here is ere kept in the dark--
they were strangers to the feeling really existing in Ireland ;
they had, in fact, been practically led, and practically misled.
It was evident that the measure of last year had not been suc-
cessful in putting down prwdial disturbances, whilst it was
equally evident that special commissions and insurrection acts
had, when tried, been found fully sufficient tor the purpose.
Of the success of commissions they had the authority of Chief
Justice Bushe as to their efficacy for putting down disturbances
in the Queen's County. The Coercion Bill failed of pro-
ducing this effect ; and why had it failed? Because it was
ueconstitutional.—( Cheers.) When the disturbances in Ire-
land were spoken of, why were they not considered in re-
ference to the circumstances which- created them ?
( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Was there no predisposing
cause ?—( Hear.) Was it to be supposed—was it to be be-
lieved, that the Irish loved outrage for its own sake ; that they
were so insane as to rush wantonly into mischief that preyed
most injurious in its consequences to 'themselves? Before a
Government proceeded to coerce, should it not first endeavour
to ascertain what it was which produced the state of society
which rendered coercion necessary ? Should it not endeavour ,
to remove those causes, endeavour to stimulate the trade of the
country, add to its industry, and ameliorate its institutions?
Was it not by premises of some such improvement—of some
such measures, encouragement, and amelioration, that
Government obtained the votes of many Members in
passing this measure in a former session? and with this expec-
tation did these Members justify their votes. Nov, he should
ask, what had been done towards the fulfilment of those pro-
mises ? Absolutely nothing :on the contrary, the instruments
of evil were continued in power in Ireland, and the disgust of
the people was aggravated,—they felt it doubly galling that
those instruments were continued by a Government which had
held out so many promises.--( Hear, hear.) Who were those
who called out for this Bill ? The holders of private pro-
perty ; and their acts seem to render such a call necessary.
The Earl of Limerick turned off his land seventy poor fa-
milies in the depth of winter. To such as him the Act would
be useful.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Fifty or sixty of these
were helpless females witnout shelter, or a morsel of
food, and they would have been compelled to endure
the inclemency of the season, had there not been an
unused chapel in the neighbourhood, to which they were com-
pelled to resort for shelter. This statement had appeared in
the public newspapers, with the name of a Catholic clergyman
attached to it. Such conduct as that was calculated to create
matter which would call for a Coercion Bill. The Earl of
Westmeath, who possessed a small property in Ireland, made
similar clearings out. But of course they had the right: "the
law allows it." Mr. Young and Lord Mount Sandford (as
we understood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman) had,
in the county of Roscommon, availed themselves of the
fifteen per cent. on the tithes ; but had they allowed it to
their tenants? Not they, truly. He admitted that
with the control of private property the Govern-
ment could not interfere, nor did he propose that it should ;
but then, it should not encourage harsh landlords, by invest-
ing them with office--( Hear, hear)—it should not make lieu-
tenants, sheriffs, and magistrates, of those whose cruelty
around the people, until it drove them into madness. If Ire-
land were prosperous, and at the same time turbulent, then
there would be ground for such harsh proceedings ; but it was
well known that Ireland, rich in all her natural resources,
and equal in productiveness to the maintenance of three times
her present population, increased as it had been, was, not-
withstandingi all these advantages, in a state of unparale led
distress. The measure proposed by the Noble Lord went to
the extent of stifling the voice of petition in the disturbed
districts.
Lord ALTH OR P made some observations across the table.
which we did not catch.
Mr. O'CONNELL continued—The Noble Lord mistook
him, if he thought it was his intention to oppose the measure.
Such was not his intention ; and he would shortly state why ;
but he would first ask why it should be necessary to prevent
public meetings in those districts where prwdial outrages ex-
isted? Why not, as was the practice under similar circum-
stances in England, be satisfie
md with having a notice of the
intended meeting- given to two agistrates ? Nay, he would
not object, in disturbed districts, to have the purpose of the
meeting distinctly stated. No one was more anxious than lie
to give effect to any law which had for its object the putting
down of prwdial excesses ; but the persons guilty of these were
not of the class who frequented public meetings. The
persons guilty of prmdial outrage were of the very lowest
classes of the community. They were generally composed
of farm-servants and labourers, and their victims were gene-