The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-18 00:00:00

Pr°-
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in it

Icrn3''llt load to reailts whir+ tl•ev miato- have to ,lonio-e. '
`', ilia , . a .te"tau .
tr_
it, in this country, and if they pirsiste ut
. the it, it would be looked upon as a declaration of war
?atm people of Ireland.—( Hear. )
44,-„r:SEYMIAJR wished to state why he had come to the
ttktiitlation of voting against the Government on this
hta:°„!l. He was aware of the almost superhuman efforts
is a Roman Ca' holies to sp ead their religion, not only in
fiti_e°nntry hut throughout Europe. He drew some censo-
rs... 2" ifinn that fact, because he did not think any adequate
lar had yet been taken to resist them. The present crisis
toraftst come upon him unexpectedly, for he had been told by
ad been
Catholic friends ten years ago that meetings
°eai held in the priccipal cities of Europe for the con
eagcm of this country. and for the establishment of somethi." system as that which it was now attempted to begin in
sape",untry. He was aware that in many quarters in Eu-
lattho'!ere had been a regular crusade of one class of Roman
dam 'lea against Protestants. That class, he believed. con-
r!f those Roman Catholics who were in favour, of civil
religions tyranny, and he believed, if they were victori-
hm_. tney would turn their arms against the Whig
Ise', in the English Church. He should admi,
IC:, that having seen a good deal of that party
garions portions of Europe, there were amongst
kat ..many who would be as unscrupulous in their means—
tlis''' despotic in the exercise of their spiritual power, as
4-4,rfere in the reign of Philip 11., the time of the Jesuits,
fte.,_n the latter established themselves in Paraguay.—
ilorri hear.) But what was it the House now proposed to
the the
was the course it intended pursuing, or what
ettLe exigency to be met? Ha did not agree with the
its "rare them, because it did that which it ought not to
tnid it left other matters untouched to which it ought to
keZ attended.—(" Hear, hear," from the Roman Catholic
•) He maintained that a bishop was not a terri-
11/41 title ; it was merely an office, as old as the Roman
istoOm religion itself. The present question was one
ale distinct and, different from monastic establishments.
rist:ere hear.) He therefore thought it would be a
baho'•ion of civil and religious liberty to interfere with those
N?, but at the same time considered that measures
111Q512t0 be taken to inquire into the management of those
ItatiZto establishments. Everybody should deplore that
lid, which for the last 200 years existed on the continent,
to which a young female was either compelled to marry
447'..ka the veil, and through the means of which the higher
111 of society had become so debased and disorganised.
al/4"etild not have trespassed at all on the House, but he
ts,inxious briefly to state the reasons which induced him
I all_to against those with whoa he generally acted, and in
14;71;:r which might endanger his seat for the borough he
ted.—( Hear, hear.)
the IioGOULB URN said he was glad he-had given way to
kit U. Gentleman who had just addressed them, as he was
atiestnat Hon. Member had shown that in any future vote
tbt 'he might give ho would be influenced by the best
gloat honourable motives. In much of what had fallen
Lit the Hon. Gentleman he (Mr. Goulburn) concurred ;
§a.mit,should differ from him in ihe vote which he gave
ik-C.`,riat occasion.—(Hear.) He thought the statement
there was a general crusade gotten up to advance the
Stof the Roman Catholic religion was not a very
liga„,ergument in favour of not passing a measure to arrest
"‘ some restraint upon the temporal power claimed
Pope in this country.— (Hear, hear.) The Hon.
tegew r for Cork (Mr. Roche) had talked a good deal about
Ntilatug the university privilege of printing the Book of
h 7,llPrayer ; but as it was, he (Mr Goulburn) found it
t•T impossible to connect the greater part of the Hon.
tier's speech with the subject immediately under discus-
Rear, hear.) He would not therefore endeavour to
,kg,tllat Hon. Member, but would merely briefly state
ilantinds why' he could not agree with the Hon. Member
'`at
the Bill then before the House. It was said the
, , Bill was an invasion of the Act of 1829. With
kiet legation he could not concur. If he regarded the pre-
klitai*'„lll as an invasion of that Act he would not give it his
ml•••••-(Hear, hear.) He had been a party to the form-
-047 that compact between the Roman Catholic body
tite People of this country, and he would neither d.e-
-on) its provisions, nor consent to its spirit being vio-
tikli",(llear, hear)—but he contended for it that that was
iktertion of that compact on the part of those who sup-
/iltseglithe provisions of that Bill.—(Hear, hear.) The
ill •• of the Hon. Member for Cork, he conceived, were
kikttstilled, for it was not pretended now to increase the
ilfre7 of Roman Catholic Bishops in Ireland, nor were
a% aeby titles there prohibited which were not so under
aet of BD. The Honourable Gentleman, therefore,
/4144 acting fairly towards his Roman Catholic fellow-
(amen if he assumed that they would not support
""airiPact of 1829.—(Hear, hear.) The act of the
Sta:n contended for it, was an aggressive act. The
-''etas" Ca- holic Church endeavoured to extend its doc-
est 1, teaching; the Church of England did the same.
6'l'
'Ate' own part he had no objection to the contest, and no
ga ht the reult—no dread of any aggression, as long as
iad a sufficiency of such teachers as they had for their ,
Nlray"--(Hear, hear.) But he held the act of the Pope to
li o 'let of civil aggression. It invaded the authority of
littra°,wn by the appointment of civil titles, and it was an
t vr; to invade the Protestant privileges of the country at
etihele time. It was on these grounds that he objected
tkahtlet Of the Pope.—(Hear, hear.) If it had been found
~tot ;e ecclesiastical arrangements made in 9iis country
Itetillusufficient for the management of their affturs, a
thr3i might have bee i found without intr ducing a civil
it. vo disturb the peace of the country and interfere with
IN lal government—(Hear, hear.) When was There a
N. during
which
.a greater disposition had been shown
N the past year, on the part of that House and
kile ntrYe to give the Roman Catholics every possible
a ? get and withdraw all disabilities inflicted by former
aeration
the only reward which they received for all that
I „,;(11;4!,,i0.n was an invasion of the authority of the Crown,
Ilhoes'a, fnagement of the Constitution. The appointment
'%h", bishops was not necessary to the exercise of the re-
-1 °f uf the Roman Catholics. If it were so, he for one
pites ready to make great sacrifices to give them the full
,of episcopal superintendence.—( Hear.) He remem-
tr fie hearing every possible narrative of Roman
Olio ances laid before that House up to the year
Itttti Out though every possible grievance which could be
as existing in this or any other country had been
4.4, not a syllable had ever been uttered alleging that the
ll apostolic of England were not amply sufficient for
N, religions want which they then hall.—(Hear.) He
Zkisrered even a rescript from the Pope at the time they
Vssircussing, about the year 1812 or 1813, how ernancia.
kers blight be safely granted, having issued. in which,
tsait? affirming the system of bishops in Ireland, there was
v thise'n made only for the appointment of vicars-apostolic
,NtLerluntey. If therefore that measure had been unpro-
in 40 If it had been unnecessary for the eutablishment of
'Au ttlan Catholic religion, why had it been introduced?
';l,tott;3',aaked, where was the evil in exchanging vicariates-
t aleii, for dioceses? It might be quite immaterial indeed
CPst7enlan Catholics, but it was most material indeed to
irisAiltestant community.—(Hear, hear.) The vicars-apos-
ale ltiZeed, had jurisdiction, as his Hon. and Learned Friend
fiber for Plymoth had told them, over personas omnes
jle ,wan all persons of their own persuasion. But would
Frak. %tended that the regular bishops would not exercise
Oils 41(4'er those who were not Roman Catholics? The
(L% deed, had told them in his bull that he had proceededsiNittlt - non sine magna viscerum comnzotione, indeed—
talrs of") those persons to superintend the ecclesiastical
1),), , the Church ; but they would be found interfering in
%il:raters also. I had been said that th Pope had no
pig h 4) enforce the canon law in this county; but the
s? might still have its effect without the interference
aZiotilyil power, as in the case, for instance, of excommu-
Vtis,_ ,l'i. Was it not possible to make such a sentence a
ktkosonoyance, and inconvenience, and injury to those
a at it had been applied?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
k-4%! thfor Plymouth said if it was proposed to excommu-
ttNi e Queen, that he would at once interfere; but the
aNge of the case was the same if the lowest subject
stZgtae'll were subjected to such a proceeding. This ap-
nt Of bishops, therefore, gave them a province over
pI
A Wals in their diocese than Roman Catholics ; and as
ok4 .... il.ot prepared to submit to the consequences of such
lIsi4lso• The Gentleman who preceded him stated ob-
I
es'd 00 some parts of the Bill ; these objections, however,
tllt'v better discussed in Committee. But with respect
fit. utsanner in which that aggression had been met, he
Oa o°Pburn) confessed he did not approve of the whole
tta"rt re Proceeding which had taken place. He thought that
Cract°neration on the part of the Government, and a less
Ce iPI to aggravate the feelings of the country, would
tasti 14;1 to a more calm and deliberate discussion than
ti,N) 4 the consequence of the course pursued—(Hear,
tkt (3:121d he could not help considering that
Otaa'crepancy between the Act introduced, and the
Iqa -. en t caused by the Government would be likely to
t to 7 prejudicial results.—(Hear, hear.) What was
ii7t urise left for them to pursue? Were they to reject
tt%kil 11 or to adopt it? If they rejected it, what better
,tsaad they a prospect of of resisting the aggression, or
eitt•allt.tiF a specific declaration that the act of the Pope was
14% .10h they should remonstrate against 2--(Hear, hear.)
41141 e Pope acted under the influence of better advisers
t, ;
_ottld persevere. But he might if he pleased recall the,
aNt,,,niol he trusted, when the Roman Catholic feeling of
'k Vntry was consulted, it would be found advisable to do
titOtt;ll)ere was no necessity to look for precedents. for such a
,s`i ks tug. He recollected an instance of a bishop to a hum
I.l%7l:larch objected being charged by the Pope. And it
b"11 fly the other day that they saw the bishop appointed
,71 ,a withdrawn, and the vicar-apostolic re-appointed.
„At sgerefore again, said, " Withdraw your bull; restore
lit vicars-apostolic, and then all the restriction of
sees told Bill become unnecessary,"— (Hear,. hear.) They
ttvi the proposed measure was adverse to civil
iNi. and that it was a persecution of the Roman
into its. The Honourable Member for Cork had told them
Mips`
the appointment of vicars-apostolic instead of
Maity. Re had talked a great deal about toleration and
41. ti y' and yet he would sweep away the entire Irish Church
COL.. and all as a proof of his moderate and liberal °pi-
ety, (Rear, hear.) A distinguished lady h.-id said, " Oh,
Alt Lander thy name many crimes are committed?" And
c 4,1 block the same way, he believed, with what was
6, ~a`tigions as with civil liberty. In Ireland certain sees
tilt tht!thlished in different districts, and bishops appointed ;
Zit.a4sw told them they should not assumo the titles of
taNtx of and the present Bill was no more an act of op-
014_ than the Act of 1829. But there was a sort of
kl:te .1 besides that of legislation. It was that which an
.oua •
4, d Insolent priest inflicted upon a man of pious and
Olt:2seanour, and who would submit to any injury and
ql)ohit,ther than make any complaint which would lead to
itiltie: Against such a man they often saw, in private
t4-N 'Las inflicted which would bear the name of tyranny
tifirojitifrie should not, however, allow thb Pope to go on
!fb,sl4o4.lng on our kind fee ings towards the Roman Catholic
triTh th He held the act of the Pope to be an encroachment
terse the sovereign power of the Queen, the Protestant feel-
lit La cOUlltry, and the Established Church, and there-
kett".ould vote in favour of the present Bill, which went
thtir
.4,-- ( Hear, hear.)
11,‘ hi, yr • BARRON expressed his apprehension that all
S',,,itati' weeks' distracting discussion on the Papal bull
ik; - ki...• as little tended to useful legislation oat the question
(4/oti"a_Ecigworth's Essay on Irish Bulls" had tended to
tes nedit‘aa breed of cattle in the county of Galway.
teiseh; 9 On the contrary, it had done an immense deal
kinglet It had raised up all the dormunt embers of
kiitqlet,:uscord in this country and in Ireland; it had torn
Palle aaLese and ripped up old sores ; it had set man against
lt` tetatmera religious feuds had been settled down, though
%Ole hie extinguished, when men were beginning to think
tneald'ilt,tters laid on the tomb for ever, Pahl that never
tkcittle Catholic
seen in our days a revival of the old disput-s
\ Ekre uestion or that that House should be made
ti(4 na f '
til, No. it) ecclesiastical censures or intolerant accusations..
- •,ue
ll tea hear.) What kind of a church was it they had, if
ii..;7.t, ore(Lthe appointment of a single archbishop would
t:tha ti,th "a but the effect of the Pope's act would
tvrch- mile the Queen, to annihilate the Established
V hand take possession of all ecclesiastical temporali-
k!eatea:es truly absurd to send forth such stories for the
itp,t?erto, of old women as the renewal of Smithfield and
14:1pIttx,;t°11:1ew as the consequences of Dr. Wiseman's
tiCe. thi„ tit in this country. Now, when they talked of
b.- isij -gs, did the think that all the horrors were on the
~ at ti?
..a,„ ..,, 7
4rtit they near, ' from the Roman Catholic Members.)
41) heaa WWI to rake up the horrors of Henry VIII., the
til the h"tb • urch ? (
their Ch (Dear.) Did they wish to rake
li ihr_orrors perpetrated by Jahn Knox in Scotland, or
A `Oll.l murders and burnings of Cromwell in Ireland?