The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-09 00:00:00

the necessity of appointing on the Select Committee such
Members As were acquainted wimh the circumstances
attending the present Grand Jury Laws of Ireland, and
wiwi were likely to understand the nature of any sug-
gestions that might be made.
Mr. SHAW thought the proposition of the Right
Hon. Gentleman a very convenient one, but while he. and
many other Members, felt obliged to that Right Hon.
Gentleman for the pains he had taken,-tin the subject. many
persons, better acquainted with the Grand Jury Laws than
himself, had very serious objections - to some parts of the
Bill. He (Mr. Shaw) begged that it would be un-
derstood, that, while he and others off-red no objec-
tion; to the second reading, they did not consider
thati they were temunil to -offer no opposition to the Bill.
Arter a few words from Mr. ROCHE, which were in-
aumliiale in the gallery, the Grand Juries (Ireland) Bill
was read a second time.
Mr. STANLEY, in moving that the Bill he referred to
a Select Committee, stated that he had placed on that
Committee genmleinen indiscriminately from all parts of
Ireland an I of all parties, for he could assure the House
that his Majesty's Gevetnment had a sincere desire t.' ob-
tain information from all qUerters.—Tlae Select Com-
mittee was,then appointed.
SECOND READING OF THE IRISH
COERCIVE BILL.
Mr. HUAIE, on the order of the thy being moved for
the ',wood reading of the Irish Coercive Bill, rose and
addressed the House. He was anxious to take the fist
oopnrtunity of addressing the Meuse upon this important
Bill ; and never did he rise with treater regret, or with
more pale, in that House; regret, that he bed been cel'ed
upon to oppose his Majesty's Minister., with whom
he had been so lone acting—( Hear. bear, and laushter)—
and pain on finding them forget all the prineiples which
they hail been acting upon for twenty five yeas, and
bringing forward a measure which no set of Mini-
sters on the opposite side of the House would ever have
ventured, or dared to bring into that House.—(Hear,
hear.) No mea ure Lad ever been brought in to attempt
suet' a breach in the Constitution of this cauntryae thi. Bill.
No Bill by so erest anti so universal a sweep had ever at-
tempted to deprive a large part of the country of its c.o.
.titutional rights as this Bill had dime.—( Hear, hear.)
It was on that ground he adelre...d the }l,-1.341., because
he feared the cons, quences likely to arse from per-
severing with this Bill would he as injurems to those
who hid promoted it, as it would be detrimental to
the hest intereete of the country —(Hear, hear.)
It appeared to him that the House had been ve,y liutitetl
in the view hitherto taken of this important Bill, and
whilst he stated candidly that no man could be
more willing than himself to concur in gevinse his
Majesty's Ministers all necessary powers to put 'down
disturbers, and those who defied the laws in Ire-
land, he thmight, before this was done, those who
came forward to ask for any such addition ml
powers ought to make out a case, showing that the ordi-
nary law was not sufficient, and that the extraordinary
powers were requisite.—(Hear, bear.) On the first
night of the session, he could not restrain himself flow
expressing his regret at the language used in his
lAlaje sty's speech—language which, instead ref being con-
ciliating, and holding not a prospect of remedy, was of a
coercive nature—the old hackneyed phrase which had
been used towards that country :or years and years past,
and which, in his opinion, had brought Ireland into its
present state of distress.—(Cheers.) if his feelings and
his language bed been singular, he should perhaps
have doubted the correctrese of his own judgment; but
ss lien he looked back, and found that the policy
of every body who bad been advocating liberty and re-
dress of the grievances of Ireland was directly opposed to
this course of proceeding, he could not suppose his
judgment was erroneous. If Ministers could have made
out that no grievances existed in Ireland—if they could
have contended that the people of that country were
riotous and lawless without a ground, then it would be
easy to say that he, and every man in that House, consi-
dering that this country never could be prosperous while
so large a portion—no less than eight millions—of his
Majesty's subjects were in a disturbed and distracted
state—that he ought to concur in any measure cal-
culated to repress those disturbances.— (Hear, hear.)
But was there to be no comfort afforded to the Irish ?
What had been the language of his Majesty's Ministers?
What had they avowed one after another, not this session
but last session, with regard to tl e condition of the people
of Ireland ? Had the Right Hr n. Secretary, in bringing in
a measure, afforded additional powers in the collection of
tithes, not stated that serious grievances existed, ley which
the inhabitants of Ireland were suhject, amongst other
things, to pinseeutions of the most aggravated nature, for
even the trifling sums of 3d. and 411. ?—t Hear, hear.)
When those things were admitted last session, it tees
stated that means would he taken to correct the grievances
which prevailed throughout the country, but no such
Measures had yet been brought forward, and carried into
operation. When a measure was brought forwat din the
eullectiern of tithes, dispensing -with time ordinary forms of
few, no doubt those who were then in the House,
would recollect what the statement's were which
were made by the Right Hon. Secretary and the Nohle
Lord. He (Mr. Fl.) cool I never forget the plain and
candid statement of the N-hle Lord when it was proposed
to evablish an unusual measure for the recovery of tithes.
He said he admitted it was deviating from tire
law—he said it was an extraordinety measure, and
mine which nothing would sanction but the extreme
exigency of the times, and the fact that there would be an
ample redress m ode up by riffording gre:at and substantial
relief to time people of Ireland.—(Hear, heir.) Was it
the way to aff me,' that great and substantial relief, for his
Majesty's Ministers to make his Mmj sty himself
the Tithe Proctor General of Ireland? These who ob-
jected to take from the tithe payer the protection which
courts of law afforded, were induced to foreeo their oppo
.itien to the measure, by the full declaration so can-
didly made by the Noble Lord, that he would bring
forward those measures of relief which were stated
would be calculated to give satisfaction to the
distressed people of that country.---( Hear, bear.)
It was well known that in July last Ireland was in a
greater state of tranquillity than for a considerable period
previously. He (Mr. Hume) had, within a few hours,
conversed with an Hon. Baronet, a Meniber of that House
win assured him that the peaceful state of Ireland at the
period mentioned was well known to Ministers ; for that
Hon. Baronet had written to them after his arrival
in Ireland, last August, and stated to them that the
country was never known to he more tranquil.—(Hear,
hear.) Whitt was tie answer given to those Honourable
Members, who in the last session had opposed the passing
of a measure which turned his Majesty's Ministers into
riche-proetore ; hut that there was a necessity that it Arndt'
be passed whilst the country was in a state of profound
peace ?—(Hear.) Major George Brown, of the Kilkenny
police, had declared in evidence that, up to that period,
the intree'uction of the Ministerial tithe measure, Kilkenny
had been in so quiet a state that a sinele policemen was
competent to time performance of any ordinary duty in any
part of time county. He had declared ala, that a single
policeman could execute a warrant without fear of the
slightest nomlesoatien.— (Pear, hear.) And that, in tong
eases I e (Msj 'r Brower) prefermed eending one polivetnan
to employing four or five to do any common duty. He
entreated the House to look to these facts; and he
thought the House (slight to he put in pee& ssien of the
causes which led to the chanue in Ireland frem tran-
quillity to outrage .—( Hear, hear.) An Hon. Member
had read ti e areireesee of Judges and Magistrate s for
tive or six succeeding Assmze., and each of !hes.
bore witness to time state of tranquillity existing in KA
kenny up to the time mensioned. And even the subse•
quint outrages in Kilkenny sine, did not warren time
paeeirme or time proposed atrocious Bill. —( le r, hear,
hear.) For three years Major Brown- said that the•
country had he.-n tranquil, and it was only now al-
leged to he disturbed by the outrages of the Whirefee t.
They were ti Id that the White eat had acquired such a
power that there was no seem ity for lite or property.
For the sake of time al gument, he would adroit
that disturbances and outrage existed to a consider-
able extent. But who was it that had produced these
outrages? Who was it that had effected the change they all
deplored ? He said that the Right Hen. Gentleman, the
Secretary for Ireland, was time cause of all these overages;
and what was more, he was told last year, before t e
Bi 1 passed, that such would be its m fleet if persevered in.
He begged to remind Hon. Gentlemen that u hen the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was accused of
being an agitator, he (Mr. Hume) Lad said, that
it was tl e Right Hon. Gentleman who was the
agitator, fur that it as as he who inflicted injustice on
te e pm ople of Ireland, anti was the cause of the outrages
of which they complained. He did riot mean to say teat
it was not truly stated that Ireland held been disturbed
for ages. It was true, but Ireland had been op-
pressed for ages, and be had hoped after the great
change which took place last year that oppression would
have ceased, and the long tide; red hopes of the Irish people
been fulfilled. Indeed the people both of England and Ire-
land were told by the Right Hon. Secretary opposite last
year, that he came to give them a boon, and proclaimed
the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to extinguish
tithes for ever. Such was the language used in this
/louse; but " hope deferred m eketh the heart sick," arid
the people of Leland, having long wanted this relief—hay
ing long wanted the fuifiltnent of the promises made to
them? naturally became unpatitnt, and broke out into out-

rages. He did, not mean to say that all the outrages motion that now existed bad ceased. Frosts whom
which bad recently taken place in Ireland bad tithes for had the evidence adduced been received, he would
their immediate cause, but undoubtedly it was to tithes all ask ? From individuals of respectability, of in-
the present evils of that country might eventually be traced. fluenee or of rank, or from anony roue employhs? An
Was it surprising that the Right Hon. Gentleman should attack of this nature upon any portion of a state was an
have succeeded, acting under the law passed last session, attack upon the whole, and he had always contended for
in osterturning the tranquillity which had been enjoyed equality of law both in England and Ireland. He would
for nearly three years? He had himself given a reluctant ask if the civil institutions of a community of 22 millions
consent to the Bill of last session, but it was on a pledge of people, should be in any way attacked by the taking
of relief which had been now forfeited. He asked the away of the liberties of 8 milions? Well might it be
House to griai/ith him to the source of the present dis- said that if this Bill Were passed into a law, it would take
orders, for bp thought he ahauht be able to demonstrate away from the Irish people all reliance upon a British
they originated in the Right Hon. Gent. Ifsn, they ought to Parliament—it would destroy all sympathy between the
Dots a Bill to Dreven. that Right Hon. Gentleman having two countries, and become the most desperate advocacy
the power of inter meddling in the affairs of Ireland, in- for repeal.—(Hear, hear.) He said so with the more
stead of passing a Bill to put down the outrages which confidence, because he had always opposed the opinion of
originated in his conduct. They. ought to advise his the Hon. and Learned Member far Dublin.—(Hear.)
Majesty to remove a councillor whose evil advice had cast He considered that the interests of the two countries
the peaceable county of Kilkenny from a comparatively should be identified. He had said that a poor country
comfortable state into one of the greatest distriction. was always benefitted by its connection with a richer one,
Which was better, that they should see the Right Hon. and he had instanced Scotland as being so benefitted by
Gentleman removed from his seat, or have a military her connection with England, and he knew not why Ire-
despotism established in Ireland ? That Right Hon. land should he made to suffer by her connection with Eng-
Gentleman had led the people of Ireland to believe that land. The Union of England and Ireland could only be
this odious impost would be removed ; but instead of cemented by equal laws and equal justice, by remedying
that, thousands, aye, even tens of thousands of arres's and evils, and not by inflicting injuries. And what
actions, supported by squadrons of cavalry, battalions of were they called upon to do? To punish a whole nation
infantry, and parks of artillery, swept away the to support a single abuse. Had not Scotland successfully
property of whole parishes for the arrears of tithes resisted the impoeitions of the Established Church of Eng-
He would only say that this Bill was more than human land, and if it were now attempted to be forced upon her,
nature could bear. lt wart virtue to resist.—(Heart heat.) would she not, to use the words of the Right Hon. Secre-
No doubt it was the duty of every free man to obey the tary, ct resist it to the death ?" Would she not hod hack
laws NO long as they were properly administer da and her aggressors front ti e borders ?—( Hear. hear.) And
imposed with a due regard to the Constitution of the were the Irish people leas courageous ? But they were
country ; hut when the steel was forced into the kept down by an overpowering military force. He called
soul, then it was the right and duty of every man on the Seetch and English Members to say whether, if they
who bore the name of freeman to resist the oepree- would not admit of any vi.denee bring done to their reli•
sion. Was it not perfectly notorious that for the gious prejudices, they would now support a Bill which
arrears of aft w shilings of tithes, the cow- the pig, was intended to manacle Ireland, by attempting to force
wh ch were worth fifty times the amount of tithes due by upon her a Church Establishment, which Scotland had
the poor man, were driven awry and sold tor a merely rejected ? He thought that it was too much to be ca•led
nominal pric..; and thee, out of mehngs of wantoneess, upon to lend the power of England—to lend the power of
they were destroyed ?—(Cri sof " N no.") A statement Scotland—to support so expensive a measure as this, it being
had been made in that House of a sack of hay having the first measure, too, of a R formed Parliament. The
been seized, sold for a few shillings, and, to satisfy the people would hear in a week or two, when they came to
malign .nt fr. Zings of. those who had seiz.id it, the stark ask for a reduction of taxes, thet.not one shilling could
Was set en fire and destroyed—that statement had been the Ministers spare.—(Hear, hear.)—He really believed
matte in that House, 'lnd remained uneontrarbeited; theta fore in his' con:mistime that this Bill was brim- ht in
he had a right to take it as a fact. Was it not well to support the Church, to put down Daniel O'Connell,
known to the Ft use that pigs, cows, geese, had been and to keep up the standing regiments.—(Loud cheers.)
sent to the barracks for protection, having been violently There hait been an instance of a proceeding of this de-
se eel or that odi us impost—tithes; and all this to sup scription. In the year 1793, when the people wete ex-
port ti e darrng 9 soon Of the Right Hen. Gentleman— tremely anxious to have public relief, what d d the wily
to m 1 on. a rstrc Chinch, and its odious accompani Minister of ti e day then do? When he found he could
nient, the atrocious aystefn of tithes? Sorry was he to see the not resist the appeals in 'de to Parliament any longer, he
Noble Cis ineeller of the Exchequer, whom be knew to he one changed the policy, engaged in a foreign war; then the
of the most honest and candid of men,—grieved was he people mold no longer expect to continue their claims for
to see him draped at the chariot wheels of the Right Hon. a reduction of taxation. The taxation was not more at
Secretary fur Iret aid, as a sacrifice to his atnnitien. That that time than 16,0001. a year, still that sum was felt as
he who had been the friend of the pe:Or—who had been great grievance, and the people were very anxious to ob-
the profector of his Majesty's auljects, should be now tarn relief; but by the contrivance of the Minister the
dragged along and obliged to give his reluctant consent to public eye had been directed in another way ; the time
a measure of this sort, was most melancitely. Her elieved went by, and no relief was granted. He then asked the
That the outrage. in Kilkenny began because of the seizure House to pause, and not go further in such a course with-
of the effects belonging ro a Catholic clergyman for tithes. nut evidence being laid before them. He conjured Mem-
How miserably had those been disappointed, who, having bets to listen to justice, and attempt, though at a late
first opposed this measure, determined to giant the ex- our, to legislate in that spirit for that unfortunate country.
traordin my powers—not to the Right Hon. Gentleman, the He fully believed it could not be a matter of pleasure for
Secretary for Ireland, the House would never have in- those tnen tus introduce such an atrocious measure as this
trusted him with them—hut to the Noble Lord, and to —.those men on whom the public eye had been for five
the Noble Earl in the other House. How miserably had and twenty years—now to find petitions pouring in from
they misplaced their confidence ! Was it, therefore, too every part of the country against the measure they had
much, when he pointed out the peaceable and quiet state now introduced. There was no evidence before the
of Kilkenny until the Right Hon. Gent. commenced his House that it was at all necessary—there was no evidence
operations, and when he (elr. H.) pointed out the causes that the law, as it now stood, was not strong enough to
that bad produced the existing disturbances—was it too put down the disturbances which now prevailed. He
much to call upon he House to pause before it granted called upon Members, and even Ministers, not to be led
such extraordinary, such uncenstitutional measures, which away by the individual statement of Houston's case ; for,
would take away from the people of Ireland all the pro- though it could not be justified, still there were palliating
tection of civil institutions? It was not possible for any circumstances; for it was proved by the Committee that
man who looked at what bad taken place in Ireland he bed very frequently stizeil for tithes which had before
under the Tithe Collection Bill, not to concur with been paid. He was as willing as any man to give extraor-
him (Mr. Hume) in opinion that that had been the Binary assistance to the law, to put down outrages ; but a
grand exciting cause of existing disturbance,• and that case, and a strong one, should be made out, before he could
no measures could be attempted, introduced, or earl ied consent to grant such extraordinary powers to a single in-
through which would produce permanent peace and eats- dividual. Remove the Hon. Secretary, and then the
blish content and tranquillity, unless they removed the Government might have what powers they pleased. He
cause which had led to them. He asked, therefore, him- (ihe Right Hon. Secretary) was certainly the most unpo_
self, arid lie hoped other Hon. Members would ask them- polar man in the three kingdoms. He had himself pre-
selves, what evidence had they that Leland, either par- stinted ten petitions, expressing the want of confidence the
tially or fully, was phweil in a situation in which the laws people haul in that Minister.—(A !nigh.) He recollected
established in that country were unable to maintain that when petitions came in for Reform they were held to
peace and repress disturbances. He wished to express express the sense of the people.—(Hear, hear.) And so
what he had often expressed, that the happiness and did the petitions now presented. No one could have
peace of Ireland, and the prosperity of this country, were thought, before this Bill was brought in, that Ministers
so linked and tied together, that the latter could net be could have supported the principles on which this Bill
maintained until the tumor were established in Ireland. rested. The Hon. Member next adverted to the Grand
He therefore did not consider this an Irish question Jury Bill, which in a firmer Parliament, was introduced
merely ; it was substantially an English question. He by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and complained
weil remembered the memorable speech :male by his Grace that any one should be described as possessing the confi
the Duke of Wellington, when taunted with having con- dence of the House who had established so little title to
ceded tt,e Catholic claims. He (the Noble Duke) then that confidence, especially in the matter to which lie was
said, ti-at he would ratter concede any thing, than risk then. referring. He had promised the country that Bill,
one dsy's civil war in that country.—(Hear.) One but he had not performed that promise. His word upon
day's civil war !" He ventured to state, that the semi- that so jest was not to be taken—he was a bankrupt upon
ment thus uttered by that Nubile Duke at that time the Reyal Exchange of politics. He concluded by moving,
placed him high in the good opinion of the thinking as an amendment, " Teat while the House deeply la
people of the country.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble mented the existence of disturbances in some distriet• of
Duke, a man, above all others, to whom warfare Ireland, they were of opinion that it had not been Retie-
was invested, but with little terror, notwithstanding factorily shown that the existing laws were insufficient for
die brilliant success which had established his midi- the purpose of putting an end to them, and that therefore
tary efforts, judging as a statesman, speaking as a minister, the House could not consent to a Bill which platted Ireland
hail declared to the country, anxious; to know his opinions, out Of the pale of the British Consti,ution."
th it he would concede the Catholic claims, his opinion Mr. Alderman WOOD seconded the amendment, oh-
still continuing against it, rather than risk one day's serving that the Magistracy and the landlords of Its land
civil war.—(ll. am bear, hear.) If the Noble Duke were to blame for much of the evil that had arisen. The
did se, would it have been any disparaeement Hun. Member then dwelt upon the course of conduct
to the present Ministers to have learnt that iessen of his which, in his opinion, the Irish landlords ought to pursue
Grace, whatever other lessons they might not he desirous of towards their ten ints, instancing the paternal treatment
learning? Ministers, however, had followed another course. which the tenants of the Merchant Tailors' Company ex-
Among other evidence he found that Major Brown lied perienced, and held up the conduct of that body as an
said, he considered the present laws were sufficient to put example for all Irish landlords. As to the Bill, he could
down any disturbances. He, therefore, asked the House never bring his mind to consent to any such thing as
whether it was proper—was it just to the people court-inertial. He bad sat in seven Parliaments—he had
of Lel lad, when they had been excited to commit never yet given a vote against the people, and he never
disturbances, to call for such a measure as the pre should.
sent ? Could any thinking man place confidence in Mr. TANCRED said the statements made to the House
the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley), and concede to were suffic;ent to satisfy him that these bones by which
hirn such enormous powers ? Nothing had been shown to society was held together were upon the point of being
him (Mr. Home;—nothing lied been proved to the House dissolved in Ireland. Before he proceeded to consider the
that the !awe, as they at present stood, were not quite spirit of the Haheas Corpus Act, he would remark, that
sufficient to suppress all disturbances. Mitch of the as there was no security provided for a great portion of
atemenis which had been made were partial state- the Irish people, as long as they were left unilefenceless
meats, particularly selected to suit the purposes of the and a prey to remote less veneeance, he would advocate
H ght Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) What was interference in their favour. That feeling done be consi-
the evidenet lief re the House that could warrant tiered sufficient grounds why he should vote for the second
them in sweeping away the whme of the civil institutions reading of the Bill then before the House. Ti, the che-
er Ire. Intl ? He remembered when Min stern breugist in meter of the •ew n millions of people who formed the
aRI 1 appointing resident Lords Lieut. nenr—a Bill which population of Ireland might be traced the root of all the
he highly approved of, but he reeretted that it was evil, complained of. Let that population be considered—
opposed by some of the Irish Members. Th it Bel let its epiritu Il teachers, of each and every sect, be fueled
dial not embrace any new point ; hit the Noble Lord into, and it would be seen that the universal priesthood of
(Altherp) would recollect that he hail brought the seine Ireland permitted the people of that country to grow up
subject forward seine years ago. When, however, the in the completest ignorance, and to give themselves up to
Bill was introduced, he hailed it as a measure teat w,s every passion and crime. This was so incontestibly the
key to produce a true statement of facts, unai guised by truth, that what most distinguished the Irish people from
the colouriog of p arty which gen• rally accompanied all iith• r nations ws, their being more swift to shed blood
stetements sent through the Cabinet of Dublin. He Was than any of Gait's creatures. He begged leave to differ
modem, that ail Redfern, nts should reach the head Gov,rn• from those Hon. Gentlemen who relied so much upon the
'tient illicit wii bout suing through the Government at Dub- evii'ence of S•r Huss. y Vivian, who, in th it evidence,
lio. The House mete then told, ihat by that measure they stated that the evils of I- eland arose from political taus-s.
wool have authentic statements of what occurred in each By tee great bulk of the volume (" Report from the Se.
county in Ireland, and that they creed riot, in future, be lest Cenitnittee on the State of Irelind"), the evidi rice or
ceived, its they haul often been. Much of the miss•ate Sir Hussey V,vian wa- disproved. As another proof
went that had been made in that House, hail arisen that the cause of the state in which the Irish new were
from •a want of knowing the real state or Ireland was trot a political one, he minkd read a short list of the
(Hear, hear, hear.) That country had hitherto• been species f crime they commited• e abort extract he
kept chiefly as a military gam-three, arid to uphold the p, 0 was aeout to read was from Baron Smith's charge ro tie
t s ant aseetidancy, which was the cause of many of the Grand Jury of the Queen's County, a the Lent
evils that efll eted that country. Let the House see wh Assizes of 183,2 :—" I find Lies a calendar con-
had been dote, and what had not tie-n dune. Had sietine of 150 cases. Of these, 12 are charges of
any Lord Lieutenant applied to Government, telling them murder; 6 of conspiracy to murder; 9 of man-
that tee ;,resent hove were not sufficient to quell the do_ slaughter; 11 of rape; 5 of child murder, and its ap-
turh auees? No; so much as a single one. Had any tem, pertensnts ; 11 of abduction ; 41 of house reeking, as-
h/oily met to sale Government fur grater powers? Nut one. sainting dwellinss, and robbery of arms; 9 of sip otine
He asked the Heuse whether they were to legislate ou at persons; 2of administering unlawful mob.. ; and 22 of
patty, partial, or defective evidence? Wey not c.ll on violent assaults." Noes as another proof n favour of his
every Lord Livia, nant in Ireland to give a statement of positi.en.he would take the population of /he Queen's
the puce of his county ? Let him tell the Besse the County—though he had not the census of 1831—end he
exact state in which it stood, whether any requisitions would take it at the last calculation made out, and sup-
Lad been forwarded to him for power to put down dis- pine the amowit to be 1:34,000. Let one of tse smallest
turbancee, and stating that the law, as it at present eeneleala counties be taken—the county of Dorset fur
existed was insufficient fur that purpose.—( Heir, hear.) nstance—whose pepulatit2n, according to the census of
Had the people of Inland, lie would ask, st :fed that they 1831, was 159,000. Al owing for an increase of pope_
were unprotected ? Certainly not; and there was not the 'et County, the amount of population in
evidence of a single public functionaty who bad stake the both counties at die present time, lie considered
inarlemiacy of the lads as it regarded juries, or any oiler pretty nearly the acme. He would call upon lion. Gen•
means to bring de:inqueots to justice. In the absence of element to consider the relative amount of crime in both
all such evidence as that, he asked, in the name of aid, counties', and see whether the same proportion existed be-
what Ministers meant by ihe course they were pursuing? t„.„n population and crime. He did not ; conseqeently
Why men, who had advocated the cause of libel-Iy, who he was inclined to think that want of employment was
had repudiated military law, or any species of coercion, the cause why the balance of crone was in favour of the
had all at once changed their minds, and haul introduced a Irish counts'. He was ready to acknowledge that, as it
Bill of so atrocious a nature ? There was no evidence had been stated that the Irish labourer earned 6d. and Sii„
whatever from three parties, who ought to prove it, that ii day, there was something beyond poverty which urge-1
there was any defect in the law, to put down the dis- him to the commission of crime. From the statements
turbances in Ireland, or of the necessity fur extraordinary male last night in that House, it would be seen that on
powers. What evidence had Ministers upon which to an average the Ludt labourer was net worse off than the
act? Why, two letters from the paid office of policemen, English labourer.—(oh, oli, and Hear.) He appealed to
who existed only in times of disturbance, and the statement made by the Honourable Member for Old.
who would lost their salaries the moment the corn- t ham (Mr. Fieldrn), last night, if such was not the truth,

a thg o°''*. ' 0
Member venture to deny it? Woul , ntiroosi
.j
who interrupted him with his cry of
,7....n.iter,,,
that he did not speak to the question noelrc..etiteil
a laugh.) If he bad the power and eoN', or
situation of the miserable Irish peasant, sitting Ai
'luilfstes.,,
in his smoky cabin, surrounded by his _heir Or:,
thee
the
eghot
eHnotnle.m3alnemwbheor for
in tdTeeorarrfmiunfpgwotoeohddrotvilih,i Intie4nA.°:171:0:101;i:
adnredn,,sawditahnodutsialenzorpsoenl
r sm
rterseossu.rce,Heanwdohuilsddeleespscariirheatlitoltiev
was to be expected there, because the f
iota I
land or in France..e-(lfear, bear.) He
1_ resoofgt
to the splendid mansion in the
his dismay when he discovered that this
ode tel
cut off, and that no legal provision sca! All ,
vent himself and his children fieim starvingsuo
things he would describe; and, further, he drive ii
the crimes into which misery Would
(Hear,
crimes atwho s-
which humanit would weep. --(11 had
He would beg to risk they Hon. Gentleman gotios
to the q „d
terrupted him, if be now spoke
(Loud laughter.) He despised those ef!"The herii
laughter ; he felt himself standing there 101 cAOA
able capacity of Member of the House
the joroii
and clothed in the majesty with which istighte
of a representative invested him—(Renewed tb.s /1
and since he had came into the Nouse, be felt ~.101?
thataei gt ol
1 btPoo:ul 1:r:3'e:1 s r_i - lei y;5
a much humbler opinion of himself than 1 fur
recollectioneina• iiO3,
(Continued laughter.) It had been said.,l,oool
Members who supported the Bill, that B,!'b"-`ad ,
spiracy existed in Ireland. He (51r. B.) 0..4 01
for five nights to the debate on the' subject.. 000
which he was as tired as Juvenal said the o"l'llabebsi
his time, of sour cabbages.—(A laugh.) But bt of
heaid, during the whole of it, one proof broweligi
existence of that censpiracy, nor the outrart thea
admitted on all sides to have occurred, traced et!de the '
cause. It he were, as a Grand Juror, to de ' woof
upon oath, he shotrd be bound to say that
fi 00;the I
brought of a general conspiracy.—(Cheers the 11,
potition Benches.) He did not know what the
Lord might himself think, but he thought ti': g 00t,
of the House was that he had tailed in mak.nThe .
case.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.) toe,
Hon. Secretary for Ireland followed on tbe saulethe II
greater eloquence, but not so much sincerity as hog
Lord—(A ltugh)—and endeavoured to tnislesd ,
~
—(Cries of " No, no," and •‘ Question.")
_Alle,C,'
to the House whether he should not be hea'rtes'
hear.) He only meant to detain them for 3 qUatioeY,
hour, and other gentlemen had been heard root°
an hour and upwards.—(A 1 ingli.) fle had it
by the elock.—(Loud laughter.) Every ("lei :balk
teat there were crimes—atrocious crimes in 'roper'
how committed, and for what reason ?.--1.143'1' sod
there was a considerable noise in the illaud'e;o_,,fl-
- bad at last to interferes and called
b e'n
upon which Mr. Richards, who appeared tnac 10)
called out]—The House will not listen W nie..; is .
Noble Lorit—l have no aristocratic blood 11°Wrec
tc'toieinisnssti—ittru
pleionu:t.tyalii aft me; hill e: rs
sem aaasyn there eer
erregepacrreedisieeensdsiaot
fi
av
,te,hdoefii an
tre;refor oh
opt tieroro
with which the remarks which I venture ° ;di
interruptions with contumelious contemet'"t
roar
He was prepared (eon inued the Hon. Member) 10prr°
—but he dared not and would not do so in Ingot g
temper of the House—he was prepared to pr.", of
alteration in the value of mono and the wan
laws, were the real c tulle of they outrages an",h WI,-
Ireland ; and he ti ought that those who attrr',lo7,,
outrages to anything done by the Hon. and LearDit'eee
her tor Dublin, or any other man, were far fro"'
fe,.0.) I
the real cause of the evil, of that countiy.--4,., bseffei
Lord OXIIANTOWN wished to make a iftePtberd'
tions in answer to the statement of the H°°;,l berr, ''
Middlesex. It was asserted by that Hon. '''-a • y ',A.°
King's County was in a state of perfect tranquit:: je.tje
(Loid Oxonintown) regretted to say that the P„,',
:de ,
tier never was more mistaken than when he. ~-bae tili
statement; and if the House would bear Wita"ooie rd
short time, he thought lie could satisfy the l'aestle I'd
every practicable method was taken to tram?" coil
county; bur, that the present state of the N',,t,°i.ttflji
alone was sufficient to justify his Majesty's 1"-a-0 10"',a
proposing the present measure. Two years art do v ,
County was in a state of perfect trariquillttP butthil Vrilt
peasantry were in a state of great excitement; '' etest4
looking out for changes—(Hear)- and eapec6°ge I'l,l
convention should be formed to put down the Orth-rctort
—(Hear, hear)—and, in short, they expected sro
wqiicmerit,u}
b'oai
irine.tg,
Ae: instance,
ti.oseheri
they
yhf should
el
dutg:hl
el: :can
a:evipmrei. :rei:l'generally
mention mischievous
at
to
wholoaware
eff c that state°ear° ;
held
the knew
of ot 'nt' ell
was fur farmers to take leriad;:slewasktth.o
of them to sub-tenants at a rack rent, retaifling,:: far"' ;
lafi i tttTlarger
rt operated
fiaine,
practicel
no 41 ore
ejt tb:ilatifsrettreiclos!,
ttil.i
own u-e only one half, or one third, of the entire ill ;
Melt bets would say that in such circumstsnceL t 5 -
would have a better opportunity of doing .1°81,,'; ds°t'ha II
portion of hid farm which he held in his own land t''' 11
if he paid a rack rent for it, and in Elita„nt ild'* :
would certainly be the case ; but not so in A__,,- gob' .
(Hear, bear.) He knew a hundred insane'. rot; 'i
the tenant held his farm withoutpaying
laYie
I
his auto-tenan s, to whom one-haltp the 01.1,71 r It;
let, and who were rack-rented, paying the gi.,000.,1 it
gptTt
hhrrhee,e,:reps.;ei
iornaftnayli,l4rmhehpxtestirbiw,,weecleyotwrsueeedioddcrikeei
iilio:tniatidg,vnlagtee,d in
an
dth
we
odst
nwortevitcobreka;:faritil :e
County. As he formerly: of the il SP"
two years ago. At that period two tithe llneet'n'baa-t
held, and soon afterwards the Terry-Alt distetise tt
cetnineneed. As soon as they were discovered, am- Id II b
of the Magistrates took place, to consult what "":,,.ytlthi,a; '
done to restore tranquillity in the district. r'''',tiler',' hi
it
was
qt).uatiereAft.terr:o-I:l‘sfeili-fi'l 'ritli
was done for that end which could be done. Then.,:eee'; le,
thence ;—those who were supposed to be in the serfs() giL- 1
tsbbtrrasyto.i.kit_:et(rocs,itihea:rdss. that isotecti;:t dr il,--
,:re,heiecoiirde;v::
neancdA•teehr:itfe
bhuatu,nntsotwweirtehstparnodtiencgtedevaenryd eenxceor
tuiroang,elheodtitro, 6
turbances increased and extended themselves.
lead
ate d It;
i
erg to read an extract of a letter, which lie hau, h' s' '''j i
I)tilmheouaftstegliwenn,it\) sal et
ofmt gentleman
eh
epi
resent
enstheh.inai
t.ti
t.,cato:lutt
Mate
t yoor,if
ithe '
iasvii,ti:oo.#o ,i.
ell::":" Lb.
the Bill new before tr7ein. The extract was as f 4„•i,, 14' Ile
"I am sorry to he.r that so many of the English Pa'-oje'eta. fee
are opposed to the coercive measures proposed I/ 'OOO *i
merit. They do not understand the state of Oise° y ssf IN
or they would not oppose it.—(Hear, hear.) roe Itiel ill
that Government ought to redress grievances be"-, It i" hl
attempt coercive measures ; but it is for the peaeeles%, Kt
habitants that redress is required. When the Psi,. li"ji
and well disposed are in daily risk of the loss of Et- elle"
and property—wlsen they are obliged to barks-00i
doors fur tear their houses may be arta, ked for :0110:,'
when they cannot go out after nigatfall, nor even tnare r
th.ir farina with safety—when all social toteic;eiodle, t
arerrupted, when they are in hourly dread of °l') P: .1
theytmini tootW nr require
hadt.e
(ali,;onr,ddoo
he hat read an exact description ijnro°:eheetsii°tanoifi?°'n the i(aCetba:aleYeristtill'bit:;. 1
country, and he took upon himself the fel°ll;alitida ''.
of the authenticity sad correctness of the letter.
..nooo
,o
a year there were 491 outrages committed in that:: igio ft
among Woich were 196 illegal notices, 24 attack evaie;
the
I, e,ets
ou
rs,Apce
is
worst
id.,
n::
8a
tn:
yed,ffaw:
-,
combination
s a il
odi
wereui,
rr
thisd c ee
tr
xs
de.
cdnt
lop.
t:aVe
ili
ill, u;
uen 1
tlia,
ssutdybste
re
is
wita;
its
nty,:rsv,ti
tie,
was.
,ei
,etr
tfi
::::,
tohotal
,01,.
:::
),..di
01
,: :
,r
I:::
down
.regulariwn
the war
i a betweenw
(v)f,crhy s i land.Catholicsnt 1:
;ii,ti, and
w as_l:droeonteei s is:nob:is:tit:lr.::
.11
ttpiaeor), :
tiff,
i,ei,,,,fitkyeneehedywts,tr,
odsyli, t
metros, )
rhr
int,
took
e: i
le:
i‘nineaga:t
of
pt.:,
fe)
epanerteitor
am
at
eludinges,cci
that
hi
utyttei.
aetut:
when
they
metiarms
:tenryh naei tt
ss:atbel
pursuit.
members
. they
eal. eykleml ,
daindi
and
b..
nelwonor
sntnanr.
re
rrbvoat
ei
,fyklivnt
gut
etsrhhai
ecnt,:
their.
it, Iels:halo: :lye' Yitod:hre'
e:eldri
tiff: i" ,
.; i they ti en oho e a leader theylibounidi tthemselve. diioP ; i
st.ttuei:iiettre.
;.ainelr,isissinlitaigtsta,
ckanitidg thoiukeesibyi.:pwbaheetanbspets, and t°o • 'le'
k l'''' of 't
more lit their party was wounded, butpetePvonr eeenacadd thenau:i.4°''
;::::*.i: of
difficult, and fro quent y impossible to trace dor'
ar is
would mention One instance which happened last YeJaefh Ilk;
the nei,,,hieturhood where he (Lord Oxinantowii) Terry'
t
to show the systematic manlier in which these art! IIY
Alts concealed the names of their aecomplice9* A Pr ill 0q
of twenty Terry-Alts attacked the house of a farn'abotas 11si
order to procure arms. They waited outside for
ar,.,,,ate eti,
time, in hopes that an opportunity might offer of acct` i
0, 11,
iug the house with advantage. While they were sy4 • I
the farmer's son, a led of sixteen years of age, h.aPPePri:Def MI
, iu_ n hum .. fates
collie out, arid they iurmediatety seiz i e , . ,
then desired him to go to the door, and knock, tint
for
tell that they were lying in waiting. Tire boy reiool, kl
They then threatened to sho,:t lion, but he still ref „lit ft
•I'Ley then beat him with the stocks of their muskriv'telf ltli
notwithstanding his tieing dreadfully injured, he re °__ oee'
refused to knock at the door. The 'ferry-Atte them ,to
ing that the boy would not do tea they required, Well • • ~

It could not he, then, entirely through poverty that
the Irish labourer was so prone to crime, but rather from
immorality and want of employment, since he passed seven
months out of twelve in a state of idleness. Among the
other causes to which might be attributed the present
state of the Irish people, was the change in the prices of
the produce of their soil since the peace, and the change
in the manner of cultivating estates, which change had
not been introduced by the landlords with sufficient cau-
tion. By this latter change, the density of the population
had been increased, which tended much to cause the pre-
sent state of Ireland; and until the redundancy of popu•
lation was got rid of cautiously, and in a way not to
esasperate the Irish people, the present state of things
must in a great measure continue. Another source of
evil in Ireland was the tolerating of vagrancy and mendi-
city. Now he contended that all these causes of evil were
purely physical and moral, and quite independent of poli-
tical causes, and bat it was by them that the present state
of Ireland could be accounted for. He did not, therefore,
consider the disorder of Ireland of only four or five years'
standing ; it had existed for a series of years—(Hear,
hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—and to remedy it, it would
be necessary to go back thirty or forty years. He would
repeat, that a redundant population was the source of
many evils to that country, and that proper steps should
be taken to find out a remedy for it. When he reflected,
and sow many remedies proposed in the volume he held
in his hand—when he knew that several remedial
plans were advised, among the chief of which
was a system of poor laws to he applied to Ire.
land, though he could not decide whether those plans
were good, still he thought that they should be properly
taken into the etinsidera•ion of that House. He main-
tained that great nsticnal evils should be considered and
treated as mental evils, where, as the poet says, " the
patient ministers to himself." The Irish should minister
to ti emselves; and he called upon the gentlemen of th it
country to endeavour to raise the moral tone of the people,
and if they could not propose to them a speedy issue out
of their privations, to inspire them at least with patience
under their sufferings. Among the remedies proposed
fur Ireland, he could not help mentioning one. It was
not one of those remedies whereby oil was poured into
the wounds of the patient—or if it proposed pouring oil,
it was oil of vitriol, which would rankle in the wounds
until it made them completely gangrenous. Of course he
alluded to the remedy proposed by the Hon. and Learned
Monber for Dublin—that t emedy was agitation ! He
doubted whether, under any circumstances, such a re-
medy was goad—:whether it was good f r evils arising
from political sources—hut of this he was sure, that for
the evils of the people arising from poverty, wretched
ness, and had and immoral habits, such a remedy was
the most dangerous ever invented. He felt, in common
with the great, r part of the Members of that House,
that many parts of the Bill were excessively painful, and
lie, as they, would, if any substitute for those provisions
were pointed our, consider themselves as relieved from a
great weight.—(Hear ) Notwithstanding, he confessed
that many of the most obnoxious provisions of the pre-
sent Bill had appeared not only palatable, but were soli-
cited by those who best knew the state of Ireland.
It had been asserted in that House that the Select
Committee on the state of Ireland bad advised niea•
sures very different from the present ones, and that the
Committee stated that special commissions would be a
sufficient remedy for the evils they had to inquire about.
He would refer to the report of the Committee to prove
that no such remedy was advised. He would ask whether
a Special Commission would be adequate in a case like
the following :—He had seen a notice, copied from one
of the Dublin papers ; it was signed "Peter Flinch," and
dated Invulnerable Lodge. It was addressed to a poor
peasant, commanding him to give up the spot of land he
held, and it concluded with the advice that if be did not
obey the mand,,te, to apply to his priest for spiritual aid
and comfort, for the consequence of disobedience would be
death. Let the case of the person who received this no-
tice be reflected on—let his fear and anxiety, under such a
threat, be brought into consideration--.nd then let Hon.
Gentlemen say that Special C.intmissions were an adequate
remedy for the urgency of such a case. He had but one
remark to make about domiciliary visits—namely, that
the nightly visits of the police were tar preferable to those
of assassins. For the reasons he bad given, he would sup-
port the present measure.
Colonel CONOLLY said, that an Hon. Member—the
Member for Mi 'd:esex—had gone so far as to hold up his
hand, and point out his Majesty's Ministers as agitators,
and as the cause of the present disturbed state of the
Irish people. The Hon. Member must have done so in
order to try and screen the true agitator. Every-
body must know (if not blinded by prejudice) who was
the real agitator, and everybody must be besides aware,
that large masses of his Majesty's suljects required to be
protected front the tyranny of agitation---a tyranny that
was exercised over their very speech and actions. He
would support the proposed Hill, because it would tend to
keep up the allegiance the Irish people were willing to
pay to England in exchange for protection, and be would
moreover give it his support, because he knew that there
were millions in Ireland who looked up to it as a measure
of many advantages to them. Tyranny, from whatever
quarter it proceeded, should be resisted ; but there WilS
no one species of tyranny he was so determined to oppose,
as that mean invidious sort of tyranny which cloak: El
itself in subterfuge, and had recourse to every paltry and
cowardly artifice to escape with impunity —(Hear, hear.)
He would say most emphatically, that so lung as the
Hon. and Learned 'Member for Dublin was allowed to
possess the power of holding out impunity to the agita-
tors of Ireland the laws could not be enforced in that
country. Government had been implored to punish
Whiteboys and Whitefeet, and other disturbers of the
peace; i ut be would implore Government to punish the
principal—the promoter; he would implore it to let its
punishment fail on those who sought to make sacrifices of
others, for their own advantage, and to escape themselves.
A cry had ln en repeatedly raised that Ireland wanted
justice; she did want justice, but not that hitherto so
loudly called tor. She wanted justice upon the heads of
those who had invented a most jesuitical mode of proceeding,
amo 'e interested and cowardly. There never was a viler
mode of acting ; by it the poor were deluded and sicri-
fined. while the insidious and cowardly agitator skulked
behind, and endeavoured to avoid both the vengeance of
the individual he insulted, and the punishment of the
laws he caused to be infringed. In supporting the pre-
sent measure, he called upon the G ,vernment to catch the
lion, as well as the other animals and little jackals that
surrounded him. During the discussion much had been
said derogatoy to the character of in liter), men. Wort
had been said against them had its origin in pr. jodice,
and was so strongly expressed in that House as almost to
amount to direct injustice. Theme was no set of men
that could he more confidently relied on than they. He
would conclude by saying, that he considered this de-
parture front the Constitution called for, and that it was
highly judicious. He appreved of that departure, be-
cause it c•-uhf never he taken as a precedent by Ministe
who wished to do wrong —(A laugh.)
Mr. RICHARDS said, that under no circumstances
whatever would lie vote away a single tittle of the
liberties of the people, without stating to that House the
reasons that induced him to do so. He had been asked
whether he would vote for the suppression of organ sad
Political Unions in Ireland and England ? He would
positively say, Yes. He would vote for their suppression
theme, Isere, and everywhere el e. Political Unions, be•
fore Reform took place, might he of some use, but they
were of no us-, and ought not to be tolerated, after the Re-
fOrm Ail had passed, and wie n the people were fairly
rep eaented in that Moo.. It appeared to him that no-
thine could be more presumptuous than that any set of m n
should form socienes, which would not only be datigeiow.
to indiv'duals, hut also to the State. He flt himself
hound, from the expel ience he had of that House to state
that 'Never was there a Bet of gentlemen more anxious to
lenitive any di-tress that might be piinted out tot ten
There was but on the face of the earth a set of men less
interested and more intellectual—(A laugh)—than those
who composed that assembly, or mere e iger to promote
the rood of their country. The Right Han. amulet the
Member for Tarnworth, and the Secretory for Ireland
had brought forward accounts of the distui hence, which

districted Ireland in bo!drelief, but they had said 1 the of
the grievances, of tt,e distress rnrl starvation, which pro-
dotted those disturbances. The independent Press of this
country, however, had pointed out the remedy rim those
evils—he thanked them tor it. By the manner in which
they had done it, they showed themselves to be in advance
of the Legislature in intelligence- and foresight.--(An
Hon. Member caled out " Question, question.") Ile
would real an extract of a letter froin a gentleman
in Connaught, which bail been Bent to him ; it was
dated in 1821, but it appeared to him to apply equally
to the circumstances of that province at present.
The letter said that " the misery experienced by the people
of that district was beyond credit and description,
yet there are no people mote peaceable or more observant
to the laws, or more obedient to their magistrates than
they are. As for their clothing, they are not half covered ;
and on Sabbath, when one halt of a fatal:), goes to
church, they require to use all the clothes of the I.:tinily,
and the rest are obliged to absent themselves, owing to
their nakedness. Their only beds are straw ; and as fin
their food, if they have one miserable meal of potatoes per
day, they consider themselves well off." He appealed
to the House, if that was not the true state of that
country at present ?.,.(Hear, hear.) Would any Hon.