The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-17 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS, Apitir. 16.

The Earl of RIPON was introduced by Earls MORLEY
and CAW DIR.

On the LORD CHANCELLOR taking his seat, at 5 o'clock,
The Earl of ROSEBEHRY presented petitions frein
Dalai and the Presbytery of Lora, in Argyle, against
Church Patronag,,.

The Bishop of LITCHFIELD and COVENTRY pre-
senttd petitions praying lor the better observance of the
Sabbath, from Bridgenorth, Stoke•upon-Trent, and other
places.

The Earl of ALBEMARLE presented petitions from
places in Suffolk, praying for the immediate abolition of
slavery.

The Duke of SOMERSET presented a petition from
Totness, praying for the better ob,ervance of the Sabbath.
Lord SUFFIELD said that he had to present fifty-one
petitions, praying 1.,r the entire and immediate abolition of
slay- ry. All the petitions so prayed. though in some other
r.spects they might differ from each other. The Noble
Lord then r-ad the !times of the places from which they
carne, chiefly in Cumberland and Suffiik.
Several private Biils were brought up from the Com-
mons by Mr. Cayley and others.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented petitions
praying for the abolition of slavery, from places in Gla-
moigan and Suffolk. Also a petition fron the tobacco-
ni.ts of a town in Wicklow, praying that the time for
getting rid of their stock might be extended.

The Bishop of ST. ASAPI-1 presented petitions, pray-
ing for the better obs,rvance of the Sabbath, from several
pities in Monlgomeryshire.

The Bishop of LONDON presented petitions to the
same effect from St. Leonard's, Shore.litch ; Hampstead ;
Loath, in Ireland; St. James's, Camberwell ; and other

plates. Alto a petition from Hamel!, praying toy pro.
teetion for the factory children.
The Bishop of LICHFIELD presented similar petitions.
Lord MELBOURNE gave notice that he should move
the third trading of the Limb Jury Bill on Thursday next.
The Marine Mutiny Bill went through a Committee,
and the Army Mutiny Bill was read a se lane time.
DIMINISHMEN f OF LAW EXPENSES BILL.
Lord WYNFORD said he was sorry to hear that he
should be opposed in the second reading of this
which was most calculated to diminish expense and pre-
vent litigation. The Bill proposed that the Judge should
have power to examine bath plaintiff and defendant
in a cause, and to send down the fact on which
they could not agree to be tried by a jury, and
so save the expense of taking a number of wit-
nesses to an assize town. In order to prevent litiga-
tion, it also proposed that the Judges should have the
power of making the parties give security for the costs.
His Lordship went into several of the details, and
said, that notwithstanding the eloquent power.i
of those whom he knew were arraigned against him, he
should be surprised to bear any good or valid objection to
the second reading of the Bill.
Lord LYNDHURST felt it to be impossible for him
to give such a Bill his assent. His Noble and Learned
Friend stated, that he had reason to think that the mea-
sure. as it then stood, would meet with the approba ion of
the fifteen Judges. Now h. (Lord Lyndhurst) could state
that they were not favourable to the measure, and if his
Noble and Learned Friend supposed they were. he was
labouring under a most erroneous impression. Many of
those learned persons, in common with himse f, entertained
a very strong objection to the practice of plaintiff and
defendant having the power of mutually putting in-
terrogatories to each other, though, doubtless, nothing
could seem more pl itisible than a proposition fit eff-cting
a change of that natuie in the administration of justice ;
but his Noble and Learned Friend, when he adopted that
principle, found it necessary to introduce certain machinery
for the purpose of carrying it into effect ; and when their
Lordships took the trouble of examining what that
machinery was, he had no doubt they would find
it so complex and so imperfect, that instead of
accomplishing the objects which his Noble and
Learned Friend had in view, it would rather have
the effect of increasing both delay and expense—
aye, increasing them one hundred fold. In consider-
ing a measure of that nature, it was most material that
they should look to what the state of the law really was
at the present moment; lie meant, of course, not tie gene-
ral condition of our whole system of jurisprudence, l,ut
the state of the law in reference to the power possessed by
plaintiffs and defendants of putting interrogatories to each
other. At pres-nt, as was well known to every lawyer,
parties to a suit could file bids of discovery. What were
bills of discovery? Nothing more or less than a series
of interrogatories; and what did that amount to, but the
possession of power which the present Bill assumed not to
exist ; the power by which parties were compelled to
answer a.!l the questions put to them, and to answer them
fully. Now lie should be glad to learn in what respect
did the propasiiion of his Noble and Learned Friend go to
effect any improvesni nt? He wished to know what dif-
ference it made whether those interrogatories were put
and answered in one court or in another—whether in a
court of law or a court of equity? It had been said that
the expense of filing a bill of discovery was not less than
2001. ; that certainly was a most extravagant description
f the expense necessary.
Lord WYNFORD had known bills of costs, in cases of
bills of discovery, amount to 2001.

Lord LYNDHURST--The whole costs might have
been swelled to that amount, but it certainly must be con-
sidered an extravagant description, and he must he allowed
to say that his Noble and Learned Friend had not taken
the proper pains to inform himself upon the subject to
which his Bill related. One of the principles for which
his Noble anti Learned Friend appeared to contend was,
the vast advantages of viva voce examinations. He had
always imagined that the chief advantage derivable from
viva voce ex oninations arose from the persons examined
being hrought into the presence of the Judge who was to
decide the question at issue. But that aas not what the
Bill before them wool accomplish. It would do no such
thing. The parties examined under it would be heard
before Commissioners in the county, for in every case it
was provided that the Commissioners empowered to exa-
mine the parties would be required to go within five miles
of their residence? And what then would occur? The
Commissioner would call the parties before him and put
to them certain in eitokatoras ; their answers to these
would be taken down in writing, and that come to nothing
more than that which already existed. Then it would be-
come a question before a Judge at chambers ; and should
either of the parties be discontented with, his decision, there
would lie an appeal to the whole Court ; besides that, if
the decision of the Judge proved contrary to that
..f the Commissioner, the question must go down again,
and be again investigated. Toe result of his experience
in the profession led him decidedly to the opinion that the
present [node of prove dine by bill and answer was infi-
nitely preferable to any change which the proposed Bill
would introduce. He had likewise a strong objection to
the measure, founded upon the proposal to require that the
attorney for the plaintiff should state in writing the cause
of action. Nineteen nut of twenty--indeed, he might
say, forty-nine out of any fifty—actions ended with the
mere servi,e of the writ. Toe parties, when served,
knew at once the cause of action, and paid the money:
but if the attorney were permitted in every case to state
the cause of action, he would, of con- se, connive to do i.
so much in detail that it would be anything hut a saving
of expense. Bet, further, he felt bound to obj, et, in
point of principle, to the [imposed alteration, to the mode
of examination contemplated under the Bill. The object
which his Noble and Learned Friend proposed to himself
was to lessen delay, and to diminish expense. In his opi-
nion so far flour producing that effect, it would have a
tendency directly the reverse. He should, thereiore, move
that the Bial he read a second time that day six months.
The Earl of ELDON, after kitty years' experience in the
profession, fait hound by a sense of duty nut to let pass
such an opportunity of recording his dissent from the
doctrines laid down by his Noble and Learned Friend, by
whom the present measure was introduced to the notice of
their Lordships. He objected, at the outset, to the pro-
posed plan of examining plaintiff and detendarr ; anti doing
that, he felt it to be almost needless to urge any other ob-
jection ; be would, however, object to the present altera-
tion, on the ground that it tended towards an intermixture
of the proceedings at common law and equity. It had,
hitherto, been considered one of the greatest merits of
which the English law could boast, that equity and law
were kept distinct. There had been something said
about the expenses to which attorneys sometimes put their
clients; it was not for him to estimate those expenses,
but he did remember a Judge, who, while at the bar,
never once mentioned attorneys otherwise than with the
most pei feet respect, but who, the moment he attained
to the bench, never mentioned them without censure.—(A
laugh.) He did not allude to his Noble and Learned Friend
by whom the measure was introduced. In his opinioh—
indeed he entertained not the slightest doubt—that the
present Bill would lead to increase t:.e expense and delay
of law proceedings.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he must con-
fess he agreed in some measure with those Noble and
Learned Lords who were of opinion that the Bill now
before their Lordships went too far. But that was an
objection rather to the details of the Bid, which might be
amended, than to the Bill itself. He was nut prepared to
say at this moment, that he should go the length of vot-
ing against the principle of the Bill, and throwing it out
at once. On the contrary, he was rather inclined to
think that it might be advantageous to let the Bill go into
the Committee, where the objections to its machinery might
be considered and retnoved. It might be fit and proper thus
to give the Noble and Learned Lord the opportunity of
(la tuneesnudoinn,gbiehsehionueladsuornel.y
oSbLerhvebetihnagt,hiwsigeneral
vif
edwe feo:etnhcies
and respect fir the Learned Common Law Judges, they
were not exactly the best persona to decide what was
fit to be done in equity; and that though, generally
ape eking, he should say that their authority was great and
overpowering when it was in favour of any measure for
the alteration of the practice in their Courts, yet although
it was still to be list-ned to with reverence, it was not,
when opposed to such alterations, to be deemed of such
overpoWering weight. That arose, no doubt, from their
excusable wish not ti sanction changes that were not ab-
solutely necessary. With reference to the present Bill, he
thought that, upon the whole, it would be the most ad-
visable course, especially as a Bill of a similar nature had
twice brittle passed this House, not to awee to the amend-
ment, and throw out the Bill, but to allow it to go into
the cummi tee without pledging the House to any particu-
lar course afterwards with respect to it.

Lord WYNI ORD said, that if there were objections to
the machinery of the Bill, though he by no means ad-
mitted
was the work of the Com-
won Law
Commissioners—it was not his. The Bill
th,reiiire, entitled to say, that the Judges were in favour
7rhad
justice, he was bound to say in his own
that
that machinery
been recommended by them. He was,
„I" it, for most of them were now Judges. He did not wish
,i,ialtogether
gne,:e their
to interfere with the Courts of Equity, but to enable the
Cotnintin Law Courts to do their own business, and be
denied that the plan he pioposed would increase the ex-
pense to the suitor. On the contrary, if that which now
required the suitor to go into a fresh court, could be dose

CwiALTutnillhtdeer ybe4l:tulineaors et
greatwi non would
was
taabev:e saving
gueh ;oft
and
silt ;Pi ten
rues
11:11,1eraP°11gliel
clod);
division. W. undetstand that none t()ok phict4
the amendment was agreed to, and the BM °":00,0
wasread a secoad time thi- day six months.--Adj°ll

COURT CIRCULAR.
__--..--- pieta
Their MAJESTIES arrived at St. James's
rneoet
aai
minutes past two o'clock, yesterday aft.e P.-
Palace at W,ndsor. 14.
he KING ave a rand dinner last eleta
Knights Grandg g
Crosses of the Oder of the Batil'Ael
The Knights app, ared in full Che oure cedess.
her enrelirjoi
Collar and Star of the Order; they
us
State Rooms, which weae brilliantly illumiPartA
Dinner having been served, his Maassn's PrA 01,
s II
the Treasurer and Comptroller of the Houseloi":00f1
Mr. Pearson, the Exon in Waiting),
way through the Portrait Gallery (tvhich irs of
party of the Yeomen of the Guard, under the coni..l
guished guests
room. The KING wore an Admirsi's uniform, 11,0
Insignia of the Oider • ihe Duke of Custaxel))i,
Duke of GLOUCESTER,' f WELLlr4f°'
the Duke o 0
the other Knights, according to their senlflrill',o,'
Teein band of the First Regiment of Foot Guard'
, ante-room adjoining the Binqitetfifig-r,°L
to the 134(170
' God save the King" as his 11111.1ESTY alle .'of
Intvearis:adi:elfnnovefeurty:o: hhattahhaksm.The di°
s.,ryed at a long t tile in the middle of the Di,'
e
room, with a cross table at one end. EPer4°
passed into the room'
guilt, embellished with different alleg .rical doll"
arranged with candelabras, containing scir li:
curious workmanship. This wa4
got
since its renovation been
given
1 eced
.
The band of the Guards played cal P'
seve
A "74 t'hnethPel4l3lo:l;el

course of the evening.
The following were the Knighs Pre'erit "...estet,o
The Duke of Cumberland, the Duke of Gloilc 9 1
Saumarez, Lord Howden, the Duke of VVellingt°:::icest,
H. Barlow, Bart., Viscount Strangford, Sir X ut, ipdro
count Beresford, Lord Lynedoch, Sir Edward rase Delco
de Rothsay, Sir George Nugent, Bart., Sir J: Sitiji
the Marquis of Londonderry, Sir Alexander ..` Aerlde
Murray, Sir W. Clinton, Sir James KeraPt, Sir ligii 'I
ow er,to, tliclo
Sir J. Drummond, Sir George Townsend
bury, Sir John Malcolm, Lord Howard of ititb,Sit i
of Rosslyn, the Duke of Gordon, Lord Farnlo77. 1000
Bagor, Sir George Martin, Sir Edw. Thornton, '..1".,,,, At,
Bart., Sir John Oswald, Sir Edward Thorn Ili
Fane, Sir E Codrin,;ton, Sir T. B. Martin, SitLy ii.:11:
Agttrries
Whitshed, Sir R. Stopford, Sir Henry George,.,ah'4
gusson, Sir Henry Warde, Sir Thomas Will.— 00
Hargood, Sir William Lumley, Sir D. Gould. fbe A
Attendants, aßOnatifitsi
the Gentleman U•her, Mr. Pulman, the °W I 04
no.
the s'w-
classes. 00'0
The Officers of the Household presenS,,,,,oloo
Treasurer, Comptroller, and Master of the Pi'l
His MAJESTY gave an audience Yestercisi
d'OmerEDA, the Hanoverian Minister. the V'
The QUEEN paid a visit yesterday to tug
GLOUCESTER, at Gloucester House.
Arms,secte Secretary
ye
toR egistrar leer of 1
f yo!
with Mr. Secretary STANLEY
The Princess Sorit IA visited her Ml. 00 i
Mr. BURGE, the Agent for Jamaica, bad 111)
the
yesterday,
:ceKorosidnltohthte.e Order present, were :••••04 o.
Office.

IS
MEETING AT GUILDHALL.--kltv
PO OR LAWS FOR I 10
00,- •
The Lord Mayor was accompanied to toe ,herre
John Key, Mr. Alderman Wood, and several of
Sir PETER LAURIE, in opening the proceerli°lo4 sae
ing, said it was one of the utmost important, 11:, of
might be supported by men of all polit cal Par""„re.priewr p
there could be no difference of opinion on the, 500 i."
blishing poor laws for the distressed pcaple 0; it",,ealdi:f
Without such laws in this country no property "refege.d
(Hear.) Without them there would be 11°. oplcr
be
who were willing to work, but were withow' 000
(Hear.) The giving of poor laws to Ireland
meting equal justice to that country.—(HearLot dal`into a comparison of the mode of living in an--,„sree°,
the present, shewing that the uncertain ellP';orsiea
present day called for that assistance for the oct,o'do
which was not the case with servants, of good cttiell,,pe
for life. He considered that man the greatest Pat"iicarr
for his country by voluntary contributions ,01
tinction of pol.tical term—whether Whig, noleat
would detract from the patriotic efforts of hen
(Hear.) But the misers—the unwilling---tlf„ cor-10
to be compelled to contribute their portion, `"revogSetod
the benevolent min.—(Cheers.) IHe would,
longed for this day, and he hop:.d the people o' 00"
rouse themselves one man, and prevent the ;ego)
continuance of an English army in Ireland.--4_,091%,
JOHN ROSSON, Esq. rose to propose the first r`"
hoped that he would le able to impress upon th,te Rat
feelings upon the subject of the absolute nee for
for Ireland that he was himself impressed with, OcPl,
fectly satisfied that even the interests of Englan%uire
of humanity imperatively called upon the Le.
..„ngt.
laws for the support of the Irish poor. It would D'-terti;
this as in all other things to take the lead in a niSi 1100
portance, for then, no doubt, the country Wntilb:
good cause. When it was found that ball "10_4
under the operation of poor laws and toe other ;00s I
induced many labourers to flock to where a InlogOlt
for them, the burden then became so great 0105,
brought to think that the whole system Wail ,
those people did not think deep enotign, toeho,
when Henry the Eighth seized the Intlniel:peel', der
number of people were thrown out of elnlefildrse74 fit
this country showed the same scenes as now 01,1
and be, being ill advised attempted to coerce t--0,0,0i
several severe enactments, in one of which be pe!:.sef
gular words—" valiant beggars." Now wila„tee rht,
was the meaning of those words, but that Wilo tit"
pricked by the sharp thorns of hunger they °oat 7011
first punishment in that reign for begging 05441
should lose the upper part of his ear, and if foll" rfectl, t
to suffer death as a felon. But such Acts were.l4ol,l9lfli
from their very severity. In the time of f'd.tiie cP:„"
and good Sovereign, it was found out that olvog
quiet the people was to feed them, or Malt: doily
-them. It was not, however, until the 4,stiLlosrle'of
peoplee
hwtao
two
naf,
aaddst
sroc great Elizabeth
yr,inlseeoyetadnutcturahetiphieosdei
nnpt
country
passing
ddtetiaintttbighrnpeyafterotooefnurfl:nbctti
iehhevaisaittsitiuptiost;A:rbl.
tcvuaSi
,tet
civilizations
dhycunel
et e 4
17
asof If coon;441111 to
1:4, I
that glorious Statute abuses had crept, bu titiitef t° fi
3'
m
duty of the Legislature of the present day t°_t:nt la° dee
dl
happy Ireland. He would refer to a paraPh-
when etg cal ~l
they were once admitted into the pale of t
He could not conclude, without referring t° "fold
Political Economy, Dr. Chalmers on the °Op,
Martineau on the other. The former bad th,ge
ward the exploded doctrines of Malthus, til;01117:,-0 et,
doubled itself every fifteen years. Now th°6-410,110 le
to be untrue by Mr. Sadler, and it Wt.,
much harm. As to the skill profeP7drao„,
tineau, he would merely read a few e-„, caw-'t
writings, in which she would abolish 11%0 ny
laws, but even private charity. iie
her the advice given by a learned doctor tot
,Ise,tl,o
she had shown gross ignorance on a subjec :;0„-gee
He, ordered her to go and help her mother `vibetit
All they wished from Parliament was or CP- 00!
tts
ihhteounwd
epn
rtowhpiaotths e
dEwn gahl
iracenhsdo
he wuetoi
ouh
to be e
deb eanbteohflyetee t
meet'
df
re
ce by
,r;
ad
Mr. STEVENS complimented the Lore 14c/ an °
Pi .ad of
progress of calling the meeting he (Mr. S.) peol,ol,'
tunity of ascertaining the feelings of the the TrelsOf
gentleman had refused, when asked, to silt lei
If the present Administration meant to c`;ool,ntegge)
would enact Poor.laws, as a test of thel,mgt rtril
were not fond of bloodshed and of r"";;..0° or,
they had been—(Hear, hear)—sheer starfald
had driven them to those acts other Inen,;:gr,) :VS°
mit under similar eircumstances.—(Hears
alone would promote equal justice ; and tilear,:Bo, 1
Ireland stood not on an equal footinfl• ---1 trielnally
present system introduced the ernpluyint° P", 100
the prejudice of Enlish labourers and .11.1 Ludi
tl ac
rno ridt s, and
murder.b atHi gentsaeg(m r . ,
sa. c
would) o n v ict
illioatdtOua.:,;soce
ow ept,F:oo
hat a man might do what he would wit" —of turn-0,1),
never admit that a landlord had the right
ere oily lf
tenantry off an estate to starve for his gone!,001/1
( Hear, hear.) As far as his experieneCe
Actltev
o o lfa
twhse;
43bsui to
fh
Elizabeth as sure th
admit that great abuses existed in
all the ners,:oeli
gt° the
the political economists.—(Hear, hear.)
,„ be gore
they vie"
are obliged to sustain the Poor,aQPy
them. He seconded the resolution, and 11115
Mr. ELLIOT rose to oppose the resolu ion.
114
when our Reporter c$
„ lock
ROBBERIES IN THE L°""
..st too o r/
Co U RT. —On Alonday, about. ball,-past
.1. A. Fitucruoso, of No. 69, I.",estakinster 401/F.l,
che Lord Chancellor's Court, w
maker's "me t*d
Pit/
robbed of a plain gold watedi, m
old seal, 113 roOld
Strand, with a gold cut b chaMo,.. , 42 10!
&ached. Cipt,in WILLIK,an ,ni"the cone
.C3esol 110,y
place, about the value dale, a I watch, L. 00
vhich a black ribaud, With ag...1,!.
.714,s ~,cict
keys were attached. Captain
_,1•0 sow
tied of a red silk purse, containing
•inp
keys.
noneys, and a bunch of patent urniag
would rceotnu 1 f
the p
ohb..d of a valuable gold iu
jo.

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