The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-12 00:00:00

authorized the Commissions to examine and report as to the
manner in which all parsons, rectors, and clergy were in
the habit of performing their duties, and actually how
fart he clergy complied with the law in allowing a sufficient
income to their stipendiaries I—one of the strongest measures
that could very well be thought of. He (the Noble
and Learned Lord) begged to remind their Lordships
that he had been dragged into this discussion very unexpect-
edly and very unusually.—( Hear, hear.) It was by no
means a convenient mode of discussing a question of
this sort, especially where it was intended to throw a censure
on the Crown or the Government. It was much more con-
- venient and fair to give a notice of motion, and if any Noble
Lord chose to adopt that course, he (the Lord Chancellor)
would be perfectly ready to vindicate the commission, because
whatever responst.ility was attached to it he had his share of
that, he having put the Great Seal to it; but he had never
done an act in respect of which he felt his weight of responsi-
bilit y less.
Tl:e Bishop of ROCHESTER said that the late most
learned and excellent Lord Chief Justice of England had told
him that there was no law to authorise the issuing of that
Commission.—( Hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW said that every Peer was bound
to discharge himself according to his conscience; and while
acting conscientiously, as the Right Rev. Prelate had done,
he was perfectly justified in delivering his sentiments. The
Noble and Learned Lord, however, had thought fit to advert
to the manner in which he held his seat in that House. He
hoped no such allusions would deter any Member of that
Bench from boldly discharging his duty by the open avowal
of his sentiments. He might be wrong, but in point of law he
thought the Commission in question was not binding in law.
Many such Commissions had been disobeyed, and no steps
taken in consequence. In this Commission, however, there
was something so grossly injurious, so impolitic, and so
destructive in its nature, that he hoped the people of Ireland
would consider it their duty to refuse obedience to it. He
stated this as a Peer of Parliament, it being his right in that
character to make such a statement; and he hoped his voice
would be heard to a distant part of that country, that it might
be known there was at least a doubt upon the subject.
Lord WYNFORD said the Crown had no prerogative to
issue such a commission. The present commission went to
ascertain facts that of themselves established the illegality of
the commission. It was to ascertain the property of the clergy.
Now the Clergy were no more bound to answer questions of
that description than they were bound to give up their pro-
perty.—( Hear, hear.) He contended that no commission could
be issued without an Act of Parliament, or if it were it was
illegal. There could not be a snore dangerous measure for
the prerogative of the Crown, than to issue commissions under
the authority of the Crown, by the advice of his Majesty's
Ministers without the sanction of Parliament. The Commis-
sion
not only was empowered to inquire into the revenues of
the Clergy, but into the number of the several sects. What
right had the Commissioners to ask such questions? They had
none. The Commission should not be issued, and was illegal.
The Noble Lord was very imperfectly heard.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR had no wish to prolong the
debate. The Noble and Learned Lord he was ready to
meet on the question at any time. As to the Commission of
1930, the Noble Lord was quite mistaken—that Commission
was mistaken. It was absolutely issued to inquire into the
conduct of the Irish Clergy, and to ascertain if they paid their
curates their full salary. It would be a different thing to issue
a Commission to inquire into the private affairs of individuals.
But that was not the object of the Commission. If the No-
ble and Learned Lord stood on the dictum of Lord Coke,
that a Commission was illegal if it had not the power of ad-
judication, he was in great error; a Commission might be legal
without leading to adjudication. The Noble Lord him-
self, in referring as an authority to the authority of the Crimi-
nal Law Commission, which led to no adjudication, contra-
vened his own principle. The Law Commission was issued
without the authority of an act of Parliament, and so were va-
rious other Commissions ; yet they were not pronounced ille-
gal. Since the time of James 11. thirty Commissions were
issued without leading to any adjudication, and on the same
ground as the present Commission. It was irregular to take
advantage of a question put on a different subject in order to
start the present objection.
Lord WYNFORD gave notice that he would move for an
inquiry into the legality of the present Commission.
The Bishop of EXETER presented several petitions (from
Devonshire, we understood) in favour of the church.
MESSAGE FROM HIS MAJESTY.
Lord DUNCANNON brought up a Message from his
Majesty, announcing that his Majesty had renounced his title
of reversion to property held in Ireland under attainder, and
asking their Lordships to pass a Bill enabling landed pro-
prietors in Ireland to put in a plea in bar of such rever-
sionary title.
Lord DUNCANNON dwelt in .a low tone of voice on the
advantages of the present boon from the Crown, which would
facilitate the transfer of property, and increase the rate of
purchase. He moved for an Address of thanks to the King,
and also moved for leave to bring in a Bill in the spirit of the
Message.
Both motions were carried.
TITHES (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day having been read for the second read-
ing of the Tithes (Ireland) Bill,
Lord Viscount MELBOURNE rose for the purpose of
moving the second reading of this bill. In so doing, their
Lordships would naturally expect that he would say some-
thing respecting its nature and contents. They might also
suppose that he would be inclined to overstate the advantages
of the measure : that, however, he found it difficult to do.
Whether he viewed it with reference to its immediate, or
with reference to its remote effects—whether he viewed it
with reference to its operation in Ireland alone, or with re-
ference to its operation on the whole of our mighty em-
pire, he felt that it was quite impossible for him to speak
of the vast consequence of their Lordships' decision that
night, in terms too strong and emphatic. Their Lordships
were all well aware of the unsatisfactory state of the tithe
question in Ireland, as well as in this country.--( Hear.) Their
Lordships were all well aware of the distracted state in
which, during the last three years and a half, Ireland had
been kept by the agitation of that question. Their Lord-
ships were all well aware that from the beginning of the
year 1831, much of the time and attention of that and
the
_other House of Parliament had been engrossed by this
most painful and important subject. Question had follow-
ed upon question, motion had followed upon motion, com-
mittee had followed upon committee, bill had followed
upon bill—almost the whole attention of Parliament had
been bestowed upon the subject, and yet it still remained in
the same unsatisfactory state ; and Ireland still remained in
the same turbulent and discontented condition. He did not
say that much of the existing evil did not arise from the im-
prudent conduct of individuals ; he did not say that much of
it did not arise even from some of the measures of Parliament
themselves. But even the very errors which had been com-
mitted—the very mistakes which had been fallen into—were
all proofs of the great difficulties of the question, and ought
only to operate to induce their Lordships to look with the
greatest impartiality—he hoped he might add with the greatest
candour, if not with favour, at the measure now proposed to
them with the view of communicating pacification and tran-
quillity to Ireland. Above all, he hoped that their Lordships
would consider the measure with feelings far removed from all
party—with feelings far removed from all personal views. He
hoped that their Lordships would consider the measure on its
own merits alone, without any reference to those by whom it was
brought forward, without recrimination or acrimony. He hoped
that every one of their Lordships would act in the spirit of
the old maxim—Aniicus Plato, amicus Socrates, sect magis
ainicus veritas. On a subject of such vast national importance,
their Lordships would, lie trusted, pay no respect to any but
national principles; and, under any circumstances, lie hoped
that justice and reason would triumph, in spite of mistrust or
jealousy, or enmity, if it could be supposed that such a feel-
ing could exist in any of their Lordship's bosoms. He would
proceed very shortly to state the nature of the Bill ; he said
shortly, because he had no doubt that their Lordships had al-
ready made themselves well acquainted with the subject. It
was well known that the Bill of 1832 made that composition,
which was previoitsly voluntary, compulsory. The first and
great object of the present measure was to place this burden
of the payment of this composition on the owners of the first
estate of inheritance; and in order to remunerate them for
the risk and loss to which they might be subjected, a deduc-
tion was to be made of forty per cent., or two-fifths of the
amount of the original composition. That was the amount
fixed upon on the calculation that, if the tithes were col-
lected, that would be about the amount which the tithe-
owner would have. So much for the landlords. Now for
the Church. And in the first place he must distinctly
deny the error into which many persons seemed to have
been betrayed, namely, that it was intended that this deduc-
tion of 40 per cent. should fall entirely on the incomes of the
clergy. The deductions which would be actually made from
those incomes would be only 223- per cent. ; 20 per cent. for
the increased security of the income, and 24 per cent. for the
expense of collection. The clergy would, therefore, receive
every year bonds from the Commissioners of Woods and Fo-
rests for payment at the rate of seventy-seven pounds ten
shillings for every hundred pounds of the existing composition.
Those bonds would bear the date at which they were issued,
and would be received in payment of taxes ; so that they
would be equal in value to money. And this every incumbent
would receive without trouble or danger or opprobrium. Now,
I say, exclaimed the Noble Viscount, that that's not a bad ar-
rangement.—( A loud laugh from the Opposition benches.)
Noble Lords might laugh, but would not some of them like to
have a similar arrangement with respect to their rents ?
( Hear, hear.) If, without any risk of bad tenants, and
if without any odium they could have the security of
Government for a similar proportion of their rents,
he apprehended that there were many of their Lordships
who would not be sorry to close with such a proposition
(Hear, hear, hear.) He put it to their Lordships to consider
what, if the arrangement thus offered to them were neglected,
and their Lordships should negative the Bill, would be the
state of the clergy in November next, when they would be left
to collect their tithes in the old manner. This was a very
delicate topic, on which he did not wish to dwell; but he
would just recall the recollection of their Lordships to what
had passed in debate in that House on a former occasion, in
order to give them an inkling of the opinions or others, whose
opinions would, probably, have more weight with them
_than
his. In the year 1832, when a Noble Earl had brought for-
ward a question respecting the state of Ireland, charging his
Majesty's Government with a neglect of their duty on that
subject, and when it was argued by a Noble Friend of his, a
Member of that Government, that the existing state of dis-
turbance was not new in Ireland, and that it might be hoped
,11. that a more settled state might yet occur, the answer made by
the Noble Duke opposite to those representations' of a better
and more pacific order of things in that country, was, " Let
P me see the tithe collected in Ireland, and then I shall believe
in something like a return of tranquillity in that country."

~.
~_.

He stated this to shos* their Lordships the opinion entertained
by the Noble Duke on the difficulty of collecting tithes in
Ireland.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, across the table (es
we understood his Grace), that he spoke of rent, not of tithes.
Lord Viscount MELBOURNE had understood the Noble
Duke to have been speaking of tithes. It had been asserted
by some persons that the clergy of Ireland generally were
hostile to the proposed measure. He disbelieved the asser-
tion. He had reason to disbelieve it. A circular letter had
been sent from London to the clergy of the diocese of Dro-
more, requiring to know if they would consent that their
friends in Parliament should throw out the Tithe Bill, and
leave the clergy to the Composition Acts. The answer to
that communication was contained in a letter to the Bishop of
Dromore, from the clergy of his diocese, a copy of which letter
he (Lord Melbourne) held in his hand, and, with their Lord-
ships' permission, would read it to them.
The Earl of RODEN inquired the date of the letter?
Lord Viscount MELBOURNE said that the copy was
without a date. He supposed that the object of the Noble
Earl's inquiry was to intimate that the letter had been written
before the alteration had been made in this Bill in the other
House of Parliament. He rather thought, however, that that
alteration was not calculated to render the clergy less favour-
able to the measure. This letter was as follows :
" My Lord—We the undersigned clergy of the diocese of Dro-
more beg leave through your Lordship most respectfully to convey
to the Lord Primate and the friends of the Irish clergy in London,
our opinion as to the course to be adopted by our friends in Parlia-
ment regarding certain clauses in the amendment of the Bill now in
Committee in the House of Commons, to abolish compositions for
tithe in Ireland.
" In the first place, we have to express our regret that any
change should be contemplated in the appropriation of the revenue
of the Irish Church, but at the same time if such should be the
decision of the Lower House of Parliament, we should also beg
leave to express the strong apprehension which we entertain of the
disastrous result to the interests of the Irish clergy and the lay pro-
prietors of tithe in Ireland, if through any collision between the
two Houses of Parliament the said Bill substituting a land tax in
lieu of composition should be thrown out, and the proprietors of
tithe left:to the composition.
" In such case we utterly despair of being able to levy our com-
position of tithes even in this part of Ireland, so comparatively
Protestant and civilized, and can only perceive destitution to our-
selves and families in the hopeless alternative.
" We would, therefore, earnestly implore our influential friends
in and out of Parliament, to render the said Bill as little onerous
on our incomes as shall be found practicable, but not to reject it
altogether on account of the proposed alterations in the original
Bill. And we would not prefer this request, if we conceived we
were thereby compromising any principle which, as ministers of
the establishment, we were bound to maintain.
" And, in conclusion, we beg leave to declare our confident
hope that the Legislature will, in its wisdom, so deal with the tem-
poralities of the Irish Church, as shall in the end be most condu-
cive to the peace and welfare of the nation, and our firm and un-
shaken trust that Divine Providence will ultimately preserve in
safety the pure and spiritual religion of the gospel."
Signed by fourteen Clergymen, Rectors, and Vicars.
(Hear, hear, hear.) It had been thought advisable to intro-
duce into this bill certain clauses, the tendency of which was
in some degree to remodel the tithe composition ; the circum-
stances under which that composition was made having been
of such a nature as to render that re-consideration necessary_
the more especially as the burden of payment was now thrown
upon a new set of persons, who had no connexion before with
the tithes. Into the details of these clauses it was not, how-
ever, necessary for him now to enter. He had stated the
grounds on which the measure proceeded—grounds which to
him appeared to be of the most urgent and pressing nature.
Their Lordships must thoroughly feel and understand that if
the bill were lost it would be impossible, and quite out of the
question for any Government in this country to listen to any
appeals which might be made to them from the Protestant
clergy of Ireland for any further assistance from the national
revenue. He trusted, therefore, that for the sake of the clergy
of Ireland—for the sake of the tranquillity of Ireland—for
the sake of the safety and prosperity of the whole empire, their
Lordships would agree to his motion—" That the Bill be now
read a second time"—( Hear, hear, hear.)
The Archbishop of CASHEL said a few words which were
wholly inaudible in the Gallery.
The Bishop of DERRY explained to their Lordships the
circumstances of his having attended some meetings of the
Right Rev. Prelates at Lambeth Palace, and of his having
abandoned his first intention to vote against this Bill, and
assured their Lordships that he had acted on conscientious
principles in changing his mind. He thought their Lordships
would agree that he had done right in determining to vote for
it when he told them that he had received innumerable com-
munications from Ireland assuring him that the measure would
there be received with the utmost satisfaction, and especially
by those unfortunate portions of the Clergy whose situation,
from living in the most retired parts of the country, was. the
most to be deplored. Their Lordships would see that it was
quite impossible he could have any personal motives for the
change which he had made in his determination with regard to the
measure, because he was glad to say that be possessed no property
in tithes whatsoever. The Right Rev. Prelate then read a letter
he had addressed to the Archbishop of Canterbury, apprising
him of his intention to support the Bill. After every conside-
ration he could give to the measure to the best of his humble
ability, he believed it to be most essentially important to the
tranquillity of his distracted country. By the Bill the Clergy
would be taken from the most disagreeable situation which
could possibly be imposed upon this sacred profession, and be
relieved from that which was the cause of their being as-
sailed with much clamour and evil-speaking, and malice,
and with every sort of feeling contrary to those which their
profession ought to excite. He was most sincerely and most
honestly impressed with the conviction, that the Clergy, if the
Bill were rejected, would be reduced to a state of the most
abject poverty and of utter destitution.—( Hear, hear.) He
must, therefore, disclaim all part in a measure calculated to
reduce his brethren to such a state. He earnestly implored
their Lordships not to refuse to read the Bill a recond time,
but, by passing it, to attempt to give to distracted Ireland some
chance of tranquillity. By so doing they would give to a most
worthy class of persons some chance of an independent sub-
sistence, and at the same time discharge one of the highest
duties of their benevolent religion, the promotion of peace and
good-will on earth.—( Hear.)

Lord ELLENBOROUGH said he was perfectly well
aware of the force with which the considerations adduced by
the Right Rev. Prelate would address themselves to their
Lordships' minds, and that they were calculated to induce
many to waver from the course which might involve the pos-
sibility of such consequences. But if the -Right Rev. Prelate
and those who had been in correspondence with him had gone
into a full consideration of all the clauses of the Bill, and had
calculated all its effects, and had still advocated its adoption,
even then he thought their Lordships would agree with him
in thinking that

It was
Their poverty and not their will consented."
He thought, however, that they could only have examined one
portion of the measure, or only have regarded it in one por-
tion of its bearings. He could conceive a clergy, when re-
duced to the state of the clergy of Ireland, consenting to all
their property being transferred to the state, and to becoming
stipendiaries instead of proprietors. He could imagine them,
even upon those terms, consenting to receive three-fifths of
their incomes at the expense of abandoning the other two-
fifths ; but this he could not conceive, that any earthly con-
sideration should induce them to consent to any measure
which held out the prospect of reimbursing the people of
England and Scotland for the advances made under the
measure out of funds sacredly and solemnly pledged by
Parliament to purposes most essential to the maintenance
of the Church of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Except
by the Perpetuity Fund, they had the assurance of the
best authorities that there were no means of meeting the
expenses necessary to the support of the Church. Without
the very buildings themselves must fall into ruin.—( Hear.)—
Under. such circumstances as these, then, he thought that no
Clergy would suffer that fund to be applied to other purposes,
or to make what the Noble Viscount had called a " good ar-
rangement," but under which the Church was left to destruc-
tion.—( Hear.) To do it would be sacrilege.—( Hear. )
He denied that such a measure was a measure of religion and
peace, as the Right Rev. Prelate had described it, or that it
went to remove what was regarded by the opponents of tithes
as their real grievance.--( Hear, hear.) It did not destroy
tithe.—(Hear, hear.) It did not diminish by one day the con-
tinuance of tithe. It did not diminish the number of tithe
payers. On the contrary, it increased them by adding to
them the landlords who had been heretofore exempt, while at
the same time it increased all the odium of collection. It was
true they were to be called rent, and to be paid to the land-
lord and not to the clergy. But then, from all their Lord-
ships had ever heard from those to whom this measure Was a
concession, the objection was to the principle, and not to the
name. They were told that

A rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
He feared that the Right Rev. Prelate who last addressed
their Lordships, and those Clergy who had called upon him
to support the measure, would find too that there was as
little in a name on the other side of the question, and that
tithe by any other name would be as rank in the nostrils of
hose who had been once taught that by resistance to the law
hey could have the law abrogated. He should not further
remark upon the speech of the Right Reverend Prelate,
excepting to observe that this was the first occasion upon
which any Member of their Lordship's House had deemed
it convenient to come down and make a statement as to any
communications which had taken place out of the House with
respect to the vote to be given in it.—( Hear, and a laugh. )
The practice was quite new ; and if adopted generally by
their Lordships, he thought it must tend to very great incon-
venience indeed.—( Hear, hear.)—He contended that this
measure was not calculated to lead to the pacification of Ire-
land. It had nothing in common with the manners or the
principles which his Majesty's Government had for the last
three years advanced as being necessary to the pacification of
Ireland. There had been no change whatever in the course
so pursued until the end of the month of June this year. Up
to that period the object of the Crown. as declared by the
Government with regard to this question, had been uni-
formly the same. Every measure which had been adopted,
every report which had been made, eve!), speech from the
Throne, and every speech from a Minister in which any
measures had been introduced, had all proceeded upon the
principle that a rent charge was to be established with
a view to redemption—(Cheers)—which would have led
ultimately to an independent provision for the Clergy.
—(Cheers.)—That was the principle which had always
been recognized as indispensable to the maintenance
of the Clergy and of the Church in the position in which
alone they could be useful. That principle was now
abandoned.—(Cheers.)—lt had, not been abandoned in con-
sequence of any difference which had arisen in the question ;
it was abandoned from the differences which had arisen in the
Cabinet.—(Cheers.) From this had arisen all the changes
which had been going on from day to day, from the changes