The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-26 00:00:00

I'vfatal he had truly stated did not appear in them, when
they were originally proposed by Government, but had he, n
introduced on the motion of a most respectable Member of
the other House of Parliament.
He (Earl Grey) did not think
these words at all necessary ; and though he might lament
their introduction, since it had occasioned some objection
90 the resolution, yet, having been introduced, their Lord-
Ps could not fail to see the bad effects of expunging
tuft, and he therefore trusted that the Noble Duke would
not press his amendment. He did not think it necessary
to trouble their Lordships longer, since they would have
another opportunity of arguing this question, when the
Bill, founded on the resolutinns, should be brought in,
Ind as no objection was, he understood, to be offered to the
DPresent resolutions—for he understood that the Noble
uke, notwithstanding all his confident predictions of the
most certain ruin which would follow the proposed
Thsasure, had concluded by saying that he would give no
'PPosition to the resolutions, but, on the contrary, would
4° his best to procure the ultimate success of the measures,
°f Which they were the forerunners. For his own part,
he anticipated with hope, having in it some degree of
confidence, that this measure would tend not only to the
Welfare of these unhappy persons so long in the miserable
'tats of slavery, but also to the prosperity of the colonies,
70 which the emancipation of negroes had been by some
Pposed to be prejudicial. At all events, the plan pro-
based by Government was the only one which they
thought they could adopt under all the difficulties of the
t site, and under the pressure of a necessity which they
scold no longer avoid.—(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON contended, that though
the Colonial Legislatures had not done all that could be
deiired, they had done much to improve the condition of
the Slaves, and had received the approbation of the home
Government for their acts. The Noble Duke then read
extracts from various deputations sent out in 1827 and
18x8, conveying the thanks of the Kings and several Co-
lonial Assemblies, for their endeavours to improve the
c(ntr'ition of the slave population. p
Earl GREY said, that nothing which had been read by
the Noble Duke applied to Jamaica. The fact was, that
bo g ineral tneasto is for the improvement of the slaves bad
eon adopted in the colonies.
, Ti e Earl of HAREWOOD denied that Government
Lad communicated with sufficient frankness with the
west India body.
i Los(' ELLENBOROUGH should not detain the House
li.°ng, 'is he concurred in all that had fallen from the Noble
"nlie (Wellington), and intended to act with him in
Earl
his Resent to the resolutions. He wished the Noble
-iarl had gone a little inure largely into the question of
'inaPeneation; for lie desired to know how it was
'ateeded to pay the interest and principal of the
h°e)
'? The Noble Earl entertained no confidence that
the proposed measure would be successful. Were, then,
people of this country to be called upon to pay
,l),000,0001. of money, to carry into execution a plan, of
7tae Ruecese of which the Noble Earl himself entertained
erY slight hopes ?
Earl GREY—I entertain a hope, approaching to con.
'''lenee, of its success.
111 Lord ELLENBOROUGH contended that much benefit
41 been effected by the Assembly of Jamaica, within a
oaftent time, under the wise and temperate administration
tiehis Noble Friend behind him. Equal rights had been
so to free people of colour, slave testimony had been
ti'll.tnitted, and the severity of the criminal law mitigated.
sa' Noble Friend had been enabled to effect these improve-
;setts by his moderation and temper—qualities, the very
,:tle of those which marked the character of his sue-
lhi 4.• He believed he was the only person in their Lord-
el s]
House who objected to assent to Mr. Canning's
els] . ' i s
t 4 Inoue., and be did so not because he was lss disposed
salt others to abolish slavery, but from these
onviction
1,,0t they must be followed by measures fraught with the
rPitrilrast danger, and that the result would be bloodshed and
4v He felt surprised that the present Ministers could
it'e given their consent to the present resolutions ; because
,tses only last year that a Minister of the Crown oppossd
dutions of a similar character proposed by Mr. F.
ktliton in the other House of Parliament. The present
,:use of Commons was more disposed to accede to what.
t the Ministers of the Crown might be pleased to pro-
Bel than any House that ever existed previous to the
ing of the Reform Bill. It was not from want of the
I,6ilence of the other House that the Ministers had
il°l4lht forward this extreme measure. On this question
Itsvitnt of confidence, he might say that if the other
i?nSe had not had unbounded confidence in his Majesty's
aesitt'ss"e's, they would nut have allowed them to raise the
.04r4lafsation to be granted to the West India Proprietors,
iesiut teen millions as a loan, to eighteen millions as
an
4aavetle gift--Ii change in their plan, by the way, which
its great want of due preparation in this plan ; for
14er the sum first proposed must Lave been a great deal
444111' or the latter sum a great deal too large.
7s Government said that they were driven to this plan
ilthe difficulties in which they found themselves placed.
tf they' not brought many of those difficulties upon
Cptaelves?—(Hear, hear.) Did they remember the
Rt4„t in April, 1831, of laying additional duties on sugar,
yoe very time when it was declared that the reduction
~4e (ay would be the only saving of the planter ? Did
leremember the subsequent resolutions sent out to the
es' the injustice of which appeared in so clear a
that it was no wonder the Colonial Legislatures re-
to act upon them ? Had they not heard that the
Os made upon those occasions by the members and
tters of the Government had created great alarm
°3i`ohief in the colonies ? And then came the Orders
so,uncil of the 2d of November, 1831, of which he
1,7 not say much, as the Noble Earl who issued them
stl° longer at the head of the Colonial Department.
1,„,,4 they not remember that the Colonial Legislatures
litslateel them, and refused Li act upon them ; and
s' unfortunately, there was something so very ab-
N 14 those Orders themselves, which prevented
'ritiltesistance from meeting with the punishment
is oit Would in other circumstances have met with ?
tkiovernment at that time seemed anxious to fit
I',l',l4ve for ultimate freedom; and he thought their
It ct since then was not justified by any change which
f4L411 place in the condition of the negroes. He did
'1 to contend that the Imperial Parliament had not
tier to deal with this question. It would be much
rot t° decide on the policy of the step which they were
ht,to take than on the practicability of putting it into
Ctl°n• In his (Lord E.'s) opinion, a great latitude
t° be allowed to the Colonial Legislatures in dealing
(it, subject of such vast importance to their interests.
i\t'd Ellenborough) would join in any reasonable
10, a plan founded on the resolutions of 1823—in a
'1 hjeh would allow the slave, when he had saved as
,te4s would purchase his own freedom, to purchase it,
by that act he might be supposed to be prepared
enjoyment of his freedom—in a plan which, while
ed gradually to the abolition of slavery, improved the
bl 4 by which that loss, which he would not say
e entirely avoided by gradual emancipation, but
t,the immediate emancipation would certainly bring
Vite country. He had no doubt, therefore, that by
it the course pointed out by the resolutions of 1823,
(itte:nment would have afforded a great degree of re-
t s planter, and have given satisfaction to the people
Ns,
11 -so Another question—and a most important
Varrying this measure—was, how the 20 mil-
'l„:l'e to be raised? The Government had dis-
k,' the surplus revenue, without considering how the
V4l burdens to be entailed upon the country by this
mt were to be met. They left nothing to meet the
't „°1 the stipendiary magistrates and police, and
ii.,:ther enormous expenses of the government of these
tio All the surplus had been thrown away by the
'4tl °f taxes of little or no consequence to the people
''''trod which they did not care about ; when, if they
'lrilltilelt unrepealed, the Government would have been
yo reduce either the house tax, or have met this
t,:ttl burden. But where now were the 20 millions
!I*when there was no surplus revenue ?—(Hear.)
'le a financial difficulty. Could any one think that,
s.
4
tttl-sent state of the country, the people would sub-
'Nst the Government would venture to lay on the
ttai itaxes consequent upon this measure, even as an
clssits The Noble Lord knew that they could not
il ~ he also knew the future difficulties and risk at.
I,ribn the measure. And fur what was this risk to
Itlii,',4 feelings of humanity ? No such thing. The
trisS.' slavery in our colonies would only increase it
''Psiss of other nations ; and what would be the
ittt measure of emancipation to the slave himself ?
,Ntvtruld be, that in infancy he should meet with
(;Ado manhood with discomfort or misery—and in
t,,,h destitution. That was the change which thi,
\4is to bring to the slave in exchange for his pre
\(( Which he had care and attention during hi,
'hi°4lfort in manhood—and competency in his old
,I'lty Ight be indeed true, that individual instances
lateight be found; but, generally speaking, the
itt'ell provided for, and happy in their families.
'ltitti°tinds, he could not give his support to any ot
r te:nsa excepting the last. Ile was willing to
'tlas 4nreo to extend education and improvement
tlei'llaave population, and to establish stipendiary
iit i)nd Police in the colonies. Mr. Buxton had
il', 41 srpinion that such measures were absolutely
7Sitder to prepare the slave for emancipation.
;'ls , nteastire, there would be a great and positive
etletij,44trY, with future prospect of future advan-
Ohipelence that loss.
CHANCELLOR then rose, and said be

wished to make a very few remarks in consequence of the
extraordinary speech delivered by the Noble Baron, He
did not say extraordinary in reference to the talent dis.
played in it, for it displaced that degree of talent for
which the speeches of the Noble Baron were always noted
—he only meant that it was extraordinary from the start-
ling conclusion to which the Noble Baron had cone—e
conclusion such as he (Lord Brougham) had never heard
arrived at either in that House or anywhere else. It was
startling from the contradictions which the Noble Baron
had made in the course of it—(Hear, hear)—and from
the nimbleness with which he sprung from one assertion
to another, when corrected by the Noble Earl. It was
startling, too, from the interpretation he had put upon
some persons and things, and the erlogies heaped with
equal liberality upon others. The first panegyric made
by the Noble Baron to which he (Lord Brougham) would
allude, was that upon slavery—(Hear)—and certainly it
astonished him more than all the rest.—(Hear, hear.)
He (the Lord Chancellor) agreed with the Noble Earl,
that this was not a time to intro 'lice topics into the debate
which might impede the great work in progress, and
that it would be desirable to obtai❑ as much co-
operation in that work, not only on this side of the
water but in the West Indies, in carrying it into
effect ; and he would therefore abstain, however vio-
lent his inclination might be, and although invited,
and almost dragged into it by the Noble Baron. He
would, he said; abstain from entering into any unnecessary
ground of controversy, but he certainly did not expect,
in the year 1833, to hear freedom and slavery contrasted
as they had been that evening by the Noble Baron. The
Noble Baron had drawn the picture of freedom as a state
of unprovided infancy, comfortless manhood, and destitute
old age, and slavery as a state in which the slave enjoyed
comfort in infancy, comfort in manhood, and comfort in
old age. Such was the contrast which he drew between
a state of freedom and slavery. Good God ! was it in
that House and in England that such a character should
be given of a state of freedom, and such of a state of slavery ?
—(Hear, hear.) And did the Noble Baron think to
draw their Lordships to join him in support of slavery by
the panegyric lie drew of it ?—a state which it would he
unnecessary for him to describe, because all knew and all
felt what it must be. The Noble Baro❑ had said that lie
alone had, in 1825, opposed the resolutions of 1823, and
he stated that he had done so because he had seen that the
present measure was the inevitable consequence of those
resolutions, and that if they were passed, they could not
help going on in the same course till they at last arrived at
a measure like the present. Now he (the Lord Chancel-
lor), instead of thinking that the Noble Lord should be
opposed to the present measure on that account, claimed
his support. Foe though he might be quite consistent in
opposing the present measure, if the resolutions of 1823,
which, according to him, led to the present measure, had
not been adopted at all, yet those resolutions having been
adopted by both Houses of the Legislature, led, no doubt,
to the present result, and the consequence was, as foreboded
by the Noble Lord, that they now must go further, for they
could not stop, He (the Lord Chancellor) would ask, if
they ought to stop now, after the interval which had
elapsed ?—an interval in which so little had been done
towards the improvement of the slaves in consequence of
that pertinacity on the part of the colonists themselves—a
pertinacity which he would not then wait to inquire
whether blameable or not, but the consequences of which
they had frequently been warned of, and for which they
had been every thing but denounced. The colonists
could, therefore, not say that they were unprepared for
this measure, or that the Government had been hasty to-
wards them. The Noble Baron had said that they were
not told how the twenty millions were to be raised. It
could not be expected that the financial part of the mea-
sure, which that was, should be laid before their Lord.
ships until after it had been laid before the other House
—(Hear)—and, as far as he understood, although the
general features had bee❑ stated in the other House, none
of the details had been entered into, and nothing had been
said of the manner of raising the 20 millions. The Noble
Baron would likewise observe, that by the resolutions the
sum to be raised was not absolutely 20 millions, but a sum
not exceeding 20 millions; so that the sum might not amount
to that sum. The Noble Baron had said that he had no
sanguine hope that the measure would be found either be-
neficial to the slaves themselves, or to the State; but he
(the Lord Chancellor) was most confident that the sooner
that detestable system of slavery was put an end to, con-
sistently with the safety of the constitution of society in
the colonies, and of the slaves themselves, the safer would
it not only be, but the more to the glory and interest
of the mother country.—(Hear, hear.) Great were the
fears of some Noble Lords, who had spoken as to the
result; but all those fears were grounded on the supposi-
tion that the negroes in a state of freedom would not
work. He had thought that the argument of their not
working had been given up. Experience had shown that
emancipated slaves had adopted habits of industry and
labour. There were instances in which they had been
found as sober, as industrious, and as careful as if they
had never been under the scourge of slavery. But it had
been said that this was not the case in sugar plantations.
In answer to that assertion, he would bring the evidence
of a Gallant Officer, whose testimony was roost deserving
of attention, and who had made most accurate observa-
tions on the state of our colonies—he meant Admiral
Fleming ; that Gallant Officer had gone more habitually
and systematically into the inquiry than most naval officers
had the opportunity of doing ; and in his evidence re-
garding Cuba and Columbia, he stated that sugar to a
great extent was cultivated in those colonies by the labour
of free negroes. But they had this fact besides, which
showed that negroes would work. The Dutch of Guiana,
not only at present, but half a century ago, uniformly
preferred to give their slaves task work, to the system
ordinarily followed in our colonies, and by a calculatio❑
they ascertained that that system was more profitable to
the master than working the slaves in the ordinary man-
ner. Could there be a stronger proof that other means
than the degrading lesh might be found to insure the
negro to labour, not only as much, but even more, than
he does at present for his master? And he would ask if
there was anything in the nature of sugar which would
prevent the negro from labouring in its cultivation, as
well as in the cultivation of cotton, coffee, or gardens, in
all of which they bad been found not only willing, but
anxious, to work for wages ?—(Loud cries of " Hear,
bear.") The negro might at present be averse to the cul-
tivation of sugar, from the recollection that it was the
most painful and irksome of his present labour, but that
was only a question of expense. A little more wages
would induce him to work at the sugar plantatio❑ as well
as at coffee or cotton. He recollected a story told of a
planter in the Caraccas, who had a plantation, one half
of which he cultivated by the labour of slaves, and the
other half by the labour of free labourers. That planter
declared that the labour of the free negroes was cheapest
and most profitable to him. The Noble and Learned
Lord then proceeded to contend that it was by no means
necessary to have slaves in the colonies, in order to being
supplied in the mother country with sugar; for whenever
the colonial supply failed us, we could readily obtain an
abundant supply from other quarters—more then enough
to supply any defalcation which the most gloomy imagi.
nation could anticipate. At present, as had been the
case for many years past, the people of England bad paid
most largely for the protection of the West India interest,
as it was called—they had paid, he believed, not less
than 1,600,0001. a year. He was sorry to say that he
was old enough to recollect when the question for the
abolition of the slave trade was under the consideration
of Parliament, and he remembered—as who could for-
get ?—the outcry which was then raised, the melancholy
predictions which were then put forth as to the evil con-
' sequence which must arise from the abolition of the slave
trade. Those predictions were quite as appalling as any
which they had heard on the subject of emancipation.
Then, as now, they were desired to look at the ruinous
effects which must ensue to the millions of men who
would be no longer employed, and to the thousands
of tons of shipping which would he, in such an event,
lying useless in our harbours—of the loss of the trade
as a nursery for seamen, and of the lose of those sources of
revenue upon which it is supposed that the finances of the
country depended; and yet the slave trade was abolished,
though it had been protected by law, and was in some sort
a favourite of the law. That trade was eulogised in Par-
liament as slavery was at the present moment eulogised by
those who opposed themselves to the numerous motions
which Mr. Wilberforce made upon the subject—motioos
which, it was now gratifying to reflect, that distinguished
individual would live to see producing those ultimate re-
sults which alone gave them value. At length the public
indignation had not only been roused, but had been called
into a steady activity, which, aided by the wisdom and be-
nevolent feelings of the Legislature, would produce that
crowning effect which in future ages would redound so
much to the honour of the present. It was a similar
sentiment that, in the days to which lie had before alluded,
struck a tremendous blow at the slave trade, and caused it
to be declared not only illegal, but felonious. A few short
years ago the slave trade was eulogised, and now all men
called it the accursed slave trade, and appeared incredulous
when they were told that Members of Parliament had
been its advocates.—(Hear.) He expected that a still
shorter period would elapse before colonial slavery itself
would be looked upon with equal abhorrence, and the fact
of its possessing such advocates be regarded with equal
incredulity. His Noble Friend had seemed to regret that
his Majesty's Government bad not upon this subject taken
up higher ground, He confessed it appeared to him in-

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 25.
The SPEAKER, resumed the Chair shortly after five
o'clock.
After the presentation of petitions by Mr. EGERTON
and other Members, the particulars of which could not be
heard in the gallery,
An HON. MEMBER said, that seeing the Under Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department in his place, be
would beg to ask him a question. When the Noble Lord
brought up the report of the Committee on the operation
of ti ,e Sale of Beer Bill, the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman was asked by the Noble Lerd whether it was
the intention of his Majesty's Government to direct
their attention immediately to the subject, and to
bring in a Bill thereupon this session. In the
report of what then took place, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man was made to say that it was too late for his Majesty's
Government to introduce any new measure on the subject
-hat session. Now he (the Hon. Member) understood
the Right Hon. Secretary to say, that the attention of his
Majesty's Ministers would be directed to the subject with-
out delay, in order that they might be enabled to bring in
a Bill that session. He begged, then, to know whether
his impression as to the answer received by the Noble
Lord was correct.
Mr. LAMB replied, that he certainly did make some
remarks that it was already late in the session ; but that
he hoped the Government would, notwithstanding, be ena-
bled to bring forward some measure on the subject during
the session.
Mr. EWART brought in a Bill for the better definition
of the crime of burglary, which was read a first time,
and ordered to be read a second time on the 12th of July.
Lord ASHLEY presented a petition from Glasgow,
signed by 17,000 persons, in favour of the Factories Bill.
The SPEAKER then called on Mr. Ruthven.
Mr. STANLEY rose for the purpose of requesting the
Hon. Member not to persevere in the motion of which he
had given notice, respecting a desirable reduction of taxa-
tion, a diminution of the public burdens, end the aboli-
tion of sinecure places throughout the British empire.
It was exceedingly desirable that public business
should not be interrupted by a motion in the principle
of which all were agreed, and which would take up
perhaps much time, and yet lead to no practical
result. He hoped that in the necessary absence of his
Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Hon.
Member would withdraw the motion, as it was very de-
sirable that the Irish Church Temporalities Bill should
be got through the Committee to-night.
Mr. RUTHVEN was very unwilling to do any thing
which might have the effect of inconveniencing the de-
spatch of public business; at the same time he thought, as
the Right Hon. Secretary had said, that the matter was
so self-evident that his resolution might at once, without
any discussion, be acceded to. He would not, however,
persevere in the motion, as the House was anxious to get
through the Committee on the Irish Church Bill, and
especially in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
NAVAL AND MILITARY FLOGGING.
Mr. ELLICE rose, on Mr. Bucxnacifaat being called to
bring forward his motion on this subject. The Right
Hon. Gentleman said that since it had been last dis-ussed,
the subject had seriously been under the consideration
of his Majesty's Government; and an order was now
being framed—he would not say already finished, but no
delay would take place in its preparation—restricting the
practice of corporeal punishments as nearly as possible to
those cases included in the motion proposed by the
Honourable Member for Middlesex, and seconded by the
Hon. Baronet, one of the Members for Westminster.
The Government were anxious that the practice should
he restrict-td within the narrowest possible limits,
which were supposed to be compatible with the main-
tenance of the regular discipline in the service.
He trusted that after this statement of the intention of
his Majesty's Government, the Hon. Member would not
only withdraw his motion for the present, but that he
would not renew it during this session, as a proof of his
confidence in the intentions of Government.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM said he had heard with great sa-
tisfaction the statement which had just been made by the
Right Hon. Secretary at War ; and be was quite ready, as
an evidence of the satisfaction he felt and the confidence lie
had in the intentions of Government, not only to with-
draw his motion for the present, but not to bring it for-
ward again this Session. He would, however, renew it
early next Session if the experiment now proposed to be
made did not succeed, and if further remedy were required.
A message from the Lords stated that the Lords had
agreed to several private Bills.
Mr. H. BULWER bad not intended to postpone his
motion, which stood for to-night, but having heard that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not be in the
House, he felt bound, though with considerable reluct-
ance, to postpone the notice till the Ist of July.
Mr. HUAIE postponed the notice be had given from the
same cause. He had intended, amongst other things, to
have called the attention of the House to the importance
of having a general inquiry into sinecures.
Mr. FERGUS O'CONNOR postponed his notice of
a motion for a Committee to be appointed to take
into consideration the subject of the Irish poor laws—not
from any lukewarmness on his part, hut from the reluc-
tance there seemed to be, on the part of so many
Members, to agree to the appointment of a Com-
mittee at this late period of the session. With re-
gard to his motion which stood for to-morrow for the
repeal of the Union, he had to beg leave to postpone his
notice, from circumstances over which he had no control,
till the 16th of July.
Mr. E. RUTHVEN postponed his notice respecting
Chief-Constable Flint's outrageous conduct in Ireland.
Mr. V. SMITH postponed his notice of motion for an
Address for the appointment of a Commission to inquire
Into the state of municipal corporations in England, Wales,
and Ireland.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM postponed his motion, at the re-
quest of Mr. STANLEY, in consequence of the absence of
Lord Althorp, respecting the impressing of seamen, till the
23d of July.
Mr. SHAW moved for a copy of the correspondence
which took place between the Chief Secretary of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, and the Irish Judges, relative to
the Juries (Ireland) Bill. The correspondence related to
the Common Juries Bill, and could not be considered
is private or confidential. The Hon. Member would see
'rum the nature of it that it could not be considered as
private or confid ntial ; if it could, he would be the last
man to s'iy a word about it. The document had been re•
terred to elsewhere and different constructions had been
placed upon it. All he wanted was to have it produced

that it might speak for itself. The question having
been put,
Mr. LITTLETON regretted that he must on principle
oppose the production of the documents, for although the
judges certainly disapproved of parts of the Bill, their opi-
nion was upon the whole in its favour. There was no
precedent for such a motion, whilst the occasions on which
it might have been made must have been numerous.
Colonel CONOLLY said that the judges were anxious
for the production of their opinion, for it had already
been referred to.
Mr. RUTHVEN hoped his Majesty's Ministers would
not produce the document.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the document ought not in
any way to influence the House, and therefore it was he
objected to its production. If anything, he was sorry
the Judges approved of the measure so much as thy
did, for it was probahle that he should have to object to
it on the very grounds upon which they approved of it.
Mr. A. LEFROY regretted that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Secret try for Ireland, had not consented to
the motion.
Mr. STANLEY subscribed fully in opinion with the
Hon. Member opposite, that the opinion of the Judges
ought not to have been taken; and Fe thought that
they ought not now to influence the decisions of Par-
liament.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The opinion of the
Judges was merely taken as a guide to the Government;
but he regretted that it was done with even this intent,
as he thought the Judges ought to be kept distinct
from any political controversy. He deprecated the
dragging fot ward of that opinion, which had been
given in a confidential manner. He believed an application
had been made in another place—(Hear, hear, hear)_
and refused, for the production of the opinion—(Hear)—
and he regretted that any reference should have been
made to the opinion, so as that it might in any way influ-
ence the decision of that House.
Mr. SHAW agreed with the Right Honourable
Secretary, that the opinion of the Judges ought not to
have been mentioned; but, above all things, it ought
not to have been mentioned as approving of the Bill, for
without the slightest hesitation he (Mr. Shaw) could say
that the opinion of the?;',es was disapprobatory of the
measure.—(Hear.) li, s.d brought forward the sub.
ject, as it was his right so to do as an independent Mem-
ber of that House ; and it was for the House to deter-
mine on the subject. The Hon. Member for Dublin had
said that the duty of juries was to control the
Judges, but he would say that the juries had
other duties to perform—(Hear, hear)—and the same
Hon. Member had said that the dislike of the Judges
to the measure would he a reason why he (Mr. O'Connell)
should like it. He would not quarrel with the
Honourable Member fur Dublin for this peculiarity.
It was the Government that had called for the opinion of
the Judges, and the Government was responsible for acting
in opposition to that opinion, which was first attempted
to be used in aid of their views, and then denied to be
produced officially to the Throne.—(Hear, hear.) How-
ever, be should not divide the House on the subject.
RuATHftverEN in
a fewexwpolarndsatfiroonm, Mr. Sergeant PERRIN and Mr.
Mr. SHAW withdrew his motion.
Mr. CLAY postponed his motion with reference to
" Sir William Curtis," to Thursday.
Colonel EVANS brought forward his motion with
reference to William Spicer.
Mr. FINN seconded it ; but in the absence of the Under
Secretary for the Home Department any discussion upon
it was postponed.
EAST AND WEST INDIA QUESTIONS.
Mr. BARING wished to know whether it was the
intention of Government to bring forward any Bills to
carry into effect the resolutions which had been adopted
with reference to the West India question ? The Hon.
Member put a similar question with reference to the East
India resolutions.
Mr. STANLEY replied that it was the intention of
Government, not only immediately to bring forward Bills
on both these subjects, but to press them iorward. In
point of fact, the West India Biil was already prepared,
and would be brought forward in a few days, and the
other Bill would not be delayed long after.
Mr. HUME wished to know when the return with
reference (as we understood) to same place held by Lord
Melville would he laid on the table?
Mr. STANLEY apologised for the delay which had
already occurred, but the return should certainly be laid
before the House very shortly.
Mr. HUME was glad to hear it. He only hoped that
no more money would be paid to his Lordship mean time.
--(Hear, and a laugh.)
Sir R. PEEL deprecated the attempt thus made, as he
said, to prejudice the case.
Colonel WILLIAMS made some motion with reference
to the University of Cambridge, the exact tenor of whic
we did not collect.

RISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES BILL.
On the motion of Mr. STANLEY, the House then re-
solved itself into Committee on this 811, on schedule A.
After some observations from Mr. STANLEY, in sup-
port of the schedule,
Sir R. PEEL said, that he would call the particular
attention of the House to the few observations, and the
proposition he was about to make. He must first give his
opinion as a general proposition—that this was a most un-
fortunate time for setting about to impose a fixed tax upon
the incomes of the Church of Ireland, when there existed
such peculiar uncertainty as to the amount of that income.
Why, the House had, within no extended period, been
under the necessity of voting two separate sums of money
to the Irish Church, in order to relieve them from the ne-
cessity of going to the trouble and expense of law for the
attainment of their legal rights.—(Hear.) For all he
could see, they would still labour under the same diffi-
culties, even after November this year. Whatever might
be the result of this measure, he was very sorry that the
charge should be defrayed by a graduated income tax--
(Hear, hear)—and he the more particularly objected to it
from the precedent which it would be establishing. It
was the more extraordinary, too, after the strong manner
in which the idea of a graduated property or income tax
had been repudiated by Ministers themselves only the
other night.—(Hear, hear.) But the great question he
wished to speak to was, whether it was right, proper, or
expedient, that benefices under the value of 3001. a year
should be taxed at all? He did not believe that the Mi-
nisters themselves were very much inclined to insist upon
this point ; and he frit certain that the unbiassed opinion
of the House would be in accordance with his amendment
—that ❑o benefice under 300/. a year should be taxed.
Surely the House must see that a small sum like this
should not be diminished, even to the smallest extent. As
it was, it was barely sufficient to support a man of liberal
education and profession, in most cases, probably, not over
careful in his management, and who, from his situation,
must naturally have so many claims upon hint. Besides,
the whole of the tax on such benefices, if collected, would
not be above a 40th part of the amount of the whole tax, and
there would be no prejudice to the people, if it were taken
off; indeed, he considered that it would be good policy not
to go about raising ss. here, and 10s. there, for it was
very doubtful whether the expense of collection e; ould not
be more than the amount collected. The ernount of the
tax upon 3001. (as we understood him) was but 61. 10s.
Surely this was not an amount worth the trouble and ex-
pense of collecting; betides this, the course of charity
would be considerably obstructed by depriving the bene-
fices of this amount. He rspeated, that as there did not
appear to be any strong feelings in support of this portion
of the Bill on the past of Government, he trusted that his
proposition for tbs non-taxation of all benefices under 3001.
a year value would be agreed to.
Mr. STANLEY said, that certainly Government were
not inclined to persist on this point. The question
should, therefore, be left to the judgment of the House.
At the same time he must remark, that the argument of
the Right Hon. Baronet with regard to the smallness of
the amount, was one which cut both ways. For so small
a sum, why should the beneficiaries of three hundred
pounds a year struggle so hard. From an income of
200/, where they began, they would only take 10s. 6d. ;
and from proceeding on the graduated scale, it would
amount to 7/. 10s. The sum of 2001. had been selected
as the point to begi❑ at, because that was the point where
the augmentation was to stop. It was, he considered,
neither unjust nor unfair that taxation should begin where
augmentation ended. He admitted that the subject was
open to consideration; but he thought that the sum levied
on 2001. was not unfair. The Right Hon. Baronet had
said that Ministers could not, upon their own principles._..
they having objected, and properly objected, to a gra-
duated tax on property—consent to a graduated tax on
the incomes of the clergy. But there was, in his opi-
nion, a great difference between the property of the Church
and the property of individuals. To whomsoever the
property c f the Church might go, it did not belong to them
as individuals—it belonged to the Corporation. The prin-
ciple of a graduated property tax had a tendency to equa-
lise property among individuals, but the tendency of a gra-
duated scheme of taxation on the income of the clergy bad
no tendency to equaliz. property. A graduated property tax
to equalize property, was an object at which the Legisla-
ture ought not to aim. To say that one man bad too lit-
tle, and another too much, was not within the competency
of Parliament, and the attempt which would carry it be-
rm(' its power would be as unjust as it would be ruinous.
The Church property, by being taxed on tbis graduated
scale, was only more equally distributed among the mem-
bers of the same corporation, but for the State to take