The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-23 00:00:00

renoy, with a view to lower its standard, I muse be ot
posed to granting this Committee.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Among the things of which the Hon. Member has spoken,
and which have very much surprised me, there is one
which has peculiarly produced that effect. In talking of
my financial statement, the Hon. Member talked of the
unsatisfactory state of public credit, when there was only
a surplus revenue of 500,000/. What remedy did the
Hon. Member propose? Why, to take 20 or 25 per cent.
at once from that surplus—(Hear, hear)—and that is the
mode in which the Hon. M-mber would remedy the inse-
curity he supposes to exist because the surplus revenue of
the country is so small. The Elan. Member asks whether
we ought to borrow money to pay the interest of the
public debt? To be obliged to do that certainly would be
a calamity, but to say that we will not pay it at all would
he even a still greater calamity, and that is a most extraor-
dinary mode of reasoning, which would go to recommend
us to adopt the latter in order to avoid the former eril.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member, to show us how pros
perous the country was when a depreciated currency was
in existence, says that pauperism in this country was de-
creasing at the chimes of the war. Let us see how this ac-
count stands according to the amount of poor's rates
ievied at two different periods. In 1803 the amoun,
',vied was 4,113,000/ , while in 1813 the amount was
4,858,0001.—(Mr. Attwoad tild something across the
cable.) T, e Hon. Maher says that this calculation was
rustle on the comparative value of quarters of wheat, and
hat that accounts for some of the difference. That may
le so ; but still ti e amount is known to have gone on
progressively increasing during the period I have men-
toned.—(Hear.) The Honourable Gentleman then says,
oak at the state in which the country is at this
moment; and he asks whether, if any private in-
hvidual were in such a state, he would one. examin,
oito his affairs, and see what were the causes that
hadoe uced him to such a condition? I answer, tear
private individual under such circumstances would
do rightly to inepiire into the stare of his affairs, and into
the causes which hail btouelit him into that condition ;
out it would not be equally right if the private intivi
dila!, in consequence of finding hien/telt in a state o,
aistress, should determine not to pay any of his debts.
The Hon. Member has quoted a speech which he says 1
made on a former occasion with reerence to this very sub-
ject, but which, I must say, I think must rathee be con
sidered es his speech than mine, for I have not the slightest
recollection of having tittered the language which he attri-
butes to me. T, e Hon. Member has rioiculed any inquiry
relative. to the effect of the pier laws, and he says they
nave hurl no I ffoct in producing the pr. sent state of the
country. It does not appear to me quite so clear that
:he Hon. Member is right in this opinion ; for 1
cannot but think that the bad administration of the poor
laws must have had tome effect on the state of tile country
It is &ear that it has had in some places. No, says the
Hon. Member, it is not tile effect of the Door lairs. or of
their bad administration, or of any other cause; but it is
all the effect of the stare of the currency. But if this be.
'rue, how is it that the same e ffect has been produced all
over England ?--( Hear, hear.) How is it, that while in
the North the poor laws have been a blessing, in the South
they have. been an evil ; and yet the monetary system is
the same in both places ?—(Eiear, hear.) Ido not think
that he can take this part of his speech as a triumphant
argument in favour of his motion. (do not mean to state
that there is not great distress in the count; y ; but I do
believe that the s'atements of it hare been considerably
xaegerated. The Hon. Member says he will excuse ex•
irggeration on such a topic—perhaps it may be excused ;
but certainly, of all men, he ought to be the first to excuse
it, for he is much inclined to indulge in it--.(Hear, and a
laugh)—when speaking on this subject. The Hon. Mem-
ber has spoken of the condition of the 1 ended interest ;
and I believe that, at the moment I am addressinst the
House, the landed interest is in a worse situation than any
other.—( Hear.) I regret that lam not able to say that
they are prosperous. But the fact is, that it is almost in
vain, in discussing these questions in Parliament, to make
any very decided statement one way or the other. I
believe, with regard to a country, that there is no
state of prosperity in which considerable instances of
suffering may not be found, nor any state of adversity
in which also considerable instances of prosperity
may not be discovered.—(Hear, hear.) This is pecu-
liarly the case with a country of such great and varied in-
terests as England. I state it as my belief that the labour-
ing agricultural population, and certain cla,ses of the
labouring. manufacturing population are soil's' ing from dis-
tress. But I believe that, taking into consideration the
amount of wages and the price of provisions and of the
articles of necessary consumption, wages will now give
more of the necessaries of life than they gave in the period
to which the Hon. Member has alluded.— (Hear.) With
respect to the iron trade, to which the Hon. Member has
alluded, the price of iron has experienced soms increase ;
and I urn happy to say that the accounts I hear upon
that subject confirm that report. The lion. Member
says that tleere has been great distress in tire iron trade,
and I believe that that is the fact. But what wis the im-
mediate and palpable cause of that distress ? Why, from
particular circumstances, there was an increase in the
amount of the production beyond that of the consump-
tion ; the consequence was a Out in the market, and then
distress followed.—(Hear.) I have now stated, Sir,
what must be the consequences of the adoption of the
proposition for an alteration in the monetary system of
the country. I leave the Members of this [louse to con
slider them. If they adopt the proposition, th-y must
come to the determination of making an alteration in the
standard of value, by which they may take from the
productions of one class and place them in the hands
of another. It dces not seem to Inc that this will he
doing any good to the country. On the contrary, there
must follow it a stagnation of credit and of employment,
which has aiways been the consequence of a want of con-
fidence; and a want of confidence such a measure must
inevitahly produce.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member did
not allivie to the depreciation of the currency in the year
1797, the consequences of which every man of sense and
feeling must deeply deplore. But even with respect to
that, there is a great difference between what was then
done and what we are new advised to do. There is this
great difference, that in 1797 the depreciation was uoin-
tentional—it came on gradually, and the persons who
eff eted it were not aware of its probable effects.—(Mr.
C•letiett said something across the table.) The Hon
'Member for Oldham thinks they were, but I believe tt ey
were not. aware of what would be the effects of the measure
of alter ng the standard of value. But what is the case
now ? If we 8, ould resort to a similar measure, we should
do so with our eses open—(Hear, hear)—and aware of
its consequences, we ahould be committing a fraud on the
public creditor—(Hear, bear, hear,)—and enabling all
debtors to pay their debts in money amounting to le•s
ti an what they really owe.---( Hear. ) Sir, it eeems to
me that this suridsn teansfer of a large mass of capital from
one hand to another cannot be beneficial, bug must. be in-
jurious to the labourer, end that the measure itsel; would
tend to des'r.-y all cetifidence in tae country. Bet then the
Hen. Member imagines that the power of doing this has
xisted, and been exercised at the will of the Bank. He
refers to what took place on the Bank Committse, and
he states that it appeared on that Committee that the
course was for the 13:tok to contract or to expand their
issues as they thought fir. I did nut hear on that Cetnunt-
,er, anything which justified such a conciusi, n ; but, on
the contrary, I understood that the course was, that the
circtOation should be centracted and expanded by the ape
rations iit the public upon the Ba, k. The Hun. Member
says, Chet while the populatien of the country hes in-
creased—while the ,talus•ry of that' people and their cum •
merce have gone on advancing, we have a currency which
dee, not admit of expansion. I do not understand this
to be so at all. Our currency, certainly, has not the
par er of a capricious or unnatural expansion, to grati y
the will or suit the fancy of any particular Set of indivi-
duals; but it is the necessary consequence of this state of
things, that the currency must expand as the demand for
it increases. The effect of a greater demand for the cur-
rency, is sure to produce a fl .w of bullion into the coun-
try—as the removal of water from one part of a vessel,
makes the fluid flow into That part from another.
(Heir.) Such an expansion of the currency is beneficial
to all ; but the forced expansion, which would be the
result of the Hen. Member's proposition, could not lead
to any but injurious consequences.—(Hear, hear.) It
would, it must, be most injurious, if the power was in
the hands of any individuals to place at their disposal
the whole property of the country.—(Hear, hear.) I
have now stated generally the grounds on which 1 feel
that I am bound—fur I will speak frankly to the Hon.
Member—(Hear, hear)—that I ain Inland in duty, as
an honest man to oppose Iris motion.—(Cheers.) I do
nor, as he is well aware, adopt this opinion, which I now
utter, because I happen to be seated on this bench. I
stated it a long time since, when I sat on the other side
of the House, and when I opposed the motion of Mr.
Davenport, as I considered it likely to shake the confi-
dence of the country. If the motion of the Hoa. 'Mem-
ber be carried, every man who has a right to demand
payment to gold, will do it at once; the consequence must
necessarily be a run upon all the banks—(Hear, hear)—
infinitely more severe than that of 1825, because no
establishment can be secure from it—(Hear)—no amount
of creatt—no degree of solvency en the partners of any
back can save it (runs the sudden pressure of every indi-
vidual, who would naturally be anxious to obtain gold
currency at its present value, before that value should he
reduced.....(Cheers.) I cannot conceive any calamity to j

the country greater than the adoption of the motion ei
the Hon. Member.—(Hear, Lear.) While, however,
ti e House rijects it, it would be desirable that it shoe!•
fe me to some decision upon 'the subject, and fir thi-
purpose I mean to move the following amendment :
" That it is the opinion of the House, that any alteration
of the monetary system of the country, which wail),
have the effect of lowering the standard of value, %verily
be highly inexpedient."—(Cheering from all sides.)
wish to put the question to issue in this debate—(Hear)—
whether the House is prepared to support the present
standard of value?—(Hear.) I wish Gentlemen to have
an opportunity of giving their votes upon that principle.
and upon that principle clearly.—(Hear.) 1 desire also
to disembarrass the question of all disinclination to vet,
against a Committee of Inquiry, for if the amendment le
carried, the House may still, if it thinks fit, appoint f,
Committee of Inquiry ; but before I take into considera
tion the fitness or unfitness of appointing such a Commit.
tee, I think it absolutely necessary, as we value the Fes
perity of the country—as we value the public faith, that
the question I have pat in issue by the amendment sboule
be distinctly decided, aye or no.—(Cheers. ) I do not thinl
that the Hon. Gentleman has embarrassed the subject
much ; he has applied himself to the monetary system,
very fairly; and though he has not stated any particular
plan, he has admitted that his view is an alteration of the
standard. I say, that if that alteration takes place, the
effect will be ruinous to the country; and for this reason
I should not feel myself justified if I 'lid not give it every
possible opposition.—(Continued cheers.)
The amendment was handed to the speaker, and—
Mr. GROG E rose iminedia'ely as he said, to second
it. He never rose with treater pleasure than with this
purpose, fir no Ling could have been proposed in which
he more heartily concurred. Nothing could result from
the inquiry meved by the Hon. Meinher for Whiteheven
but partial stivernenta and crude opinioes. Nobody felt ri
.nronver sense than he 'lid of the obligations of the House
in every practica',le way to miticate distress ; but that so
Irmo subject ought not to be made the cloak or the stalk-
ing-horse fir bringing forward peculiar and individual
theories. If the C mimittee were appointed, the first
question for investieation urns- he, does this general and
unprecedented distress exist ? lie (Mr. G.) for one, en-
tirely denied it.—(Hear) Before any satisfactory answer
could be pronounced to it, the cumbrous details and com-
plicated relations of society must be examined ; hut, sup-
I pose the most laborious Committee that had ever be n
nettled commenced the greet subject—sio•pose it sat (laity
for a whole month, end examined 100 witnesses—cm&
suffice infarneetien be procured, even admit ing the 100
witnesses to Le well infermed, veracious, and unhiassed,
to warrant a definitive report open this wide and lin-
portant topic.—(Hear.) He felt almost ashamed to ap-
pear to treat the matter with 1- vity ; but he could no
help thinking, that the proceeoings of such a Com-
mittee could he compared only to the progress of
some rash travellers, who, having journeyed over the
United States fur sorne three or four months—
having questioned passengers in stage-coaches, and
guests at tables d'hote—having examined walteis, arid
sifted charnberrnaids—rettirned to this cnunry, and
tended to give a full, true, and particular account of the
country they had visited and its inhabitants, dogmatising
with all the conceit of would.he philosophers, and ni iking
assertions with all the confidence of long resident eye
witnesses.—(Cheers, and laughter.) He agreed with the
Noble Lord, that the proposal fur a Committee %vas nothing
but the garb and apparel, the ter-le and shell, which con-
cealed something more noxious and objectionable, and
which must be cast away before the House arrived at tee
real intention of the Hoe. Member. He had made three
propositiena :-1. That there existed in the country
general and unprecedented distress ; 2. That that distress
arose out of the contraction of the currency, and the low
state of prices consequent upon Peel's Bill ; 3. That it
was necessary to rectify the mischief by debasing the pre-
sent standard of value. Upon each of these points he
(Mr. Grote) woul make a few remarks. The more he
investigated, the more 1 e disbelieved the allegation of
general and severe distress. He was willing, nevertheless,
to admit that there were particular classes and interests
sadly sufferiag ; but there never was a time when the
same thing might not be predicated of this large country,
especially in the halcyon dais alluded to by the Hon.
Member. He had looked hack to the deliatss of the y,llB
1810, 1811, and 1812, and he found that petitions had
then been presented calculated to produce quite as much
syinpa!hy as the assertions of the Honourable Member.
He would, therefore, turn to another point. He helot in
his hand a return, by order of the House, of the number
of bankruptcies in the eleven years from 1822 to 1832,
and he found that it was 19,376, or an average of 1,761
per antrum. To these he had added, in order to show
the comparative distress immediately before and after the
passing of Peel's Bill, the bankruptcies in 1819, 1820,
and 1821, making, in the whole, 24,713, and presenting
an annual average upon 14 years of 1,765. Looking back
to the bankruptcies from 1808 to 1818, i,e found that
they amounted to no less than 21.609, or an annual ave-
rage upon the eleven years of I,964,—(Cheers.) He
therefore appealed to the common sense of every man,
whether this fact did not show a sounder and steadier
course of trade since the passing of Peel's Bill than before
it, especially when it was recollected, that the 1,964, bank,
rupteits applied to a period of much more contracted com-
mercial community—when the " London Directory"con-
veined fewer nines by 50 per cent. than now, arid when
Manclnster, Birmingham, Leeds, and other great towns,
had nut risen to their present importance either as to capi-
til or population. The Noble Lord had already referred
to the increase in the poor rates, but the figures he had
stated did not precisely agree with those which he (Mr.
Grote) bad extracted from the Parliamentary Return.
Ili 1803, the expenditure was 4,707,000/. ; where s
the expenditure in 1816, 1817 and 1818, was 6,833,0001.
—(Hear, hear.) He begged to compare the average ex
Pernii•ure of those years with the average of the three
last years-1830, 1831, and 1832. It was 6,887,000/.,
only is trifling inciease of the poor rates, ey no means in
proportion to the increase of the population. The Hen.
Member for Whitehaven had completely set at naught all
the great facts as to the aggregate of the community, on a
question, above ail others affectieg the mis-ty or happi-
ness of that aggregate ; he professed to despise all returns
of exports and imports, and was anxious to induce the
House to take particular cases as a sample of the whole.
He (Mr. Grote) protested against firming a judgment
from such imperfect materials. He firmed that the con-
sumption of these essential articles—tea, coffee, cocoa and
sugar, had steadily increased from year to year—a fact
which he ascertained from the circular of the colonial
brokers, as far as related to the period from 1825 to 1832.
How could such be the case if the community were gra-
dually declining in opulence?—(Hear, hear.) The state-
ment of the Hon. Member, therefore, involved a contra.
diction. The Hon Menther for Birmingham had given
evidence before the Committee on the Bank Charter,
%%bleb seemed to him (Mr. G.) irreconcileable with sound
reasoning. Ile had been askeri—" Do you ihink that the
caneumprion of articles of luxury in Birmingham has de-
creased very much during that period ? Tertibly, in the
last one or two years, i ut perhaps not in the last twelve
sears. Supposing the case to be th it the number
of two-wherled carriages has doubled in amount
since Unit time. Fashion and extravagance are ec
centric things. Ti'.- roads have been wonderfully im-
',toyed by macadamization, and luxury increases beyowi
anything, and educerien increases beyond arlything, which
leads to an increase of expense ; and I am sorry to say,
That at Birmingham, ter the last fifeen years, every man
seems to me to hove increased his expenses at a time when
1 positively know his fortune has beer, aiminishing. If in
other articles of expense there has been a great increase, in
sorvenfss for instance, arid in four-wheeled carri,ges, you
do not think that proves anything as to the comfort and
wealth of the inhabitants of Birmingham ? Certainly
tot; there is no wealth and no comfort there, and there
,s no safety amongst manufacturers or merchants, but they
will, perhaps, not acknowledge this. Do you call iin
proved roads an increase to the capital of the coultry ?
Yes, but I consider the improved roads have grawn nut of
the poverty Of the labourers, that the parishes have gene-
rally been obliged to employ them in breeking stones for
the roads. If there is this increase of luxury in Birming-
ham, and this increase of expense, and, at the same time,
the capital and the means of tte parties have diminished
in the extraordinary way you have stared, how have they
been enabled to carry on tail additional expense? A vast
number of them have been totally ruined." These opi-
nions were utterly inconsistent with eyeryihing that was
known of human n ,ture; annd what he had just read proved
that the decay of Birmingham had not been by any means so
great as he wished to represent it, nor could lie give the Hon.
family in the cowls he repre-
sented,tonatnittee against the
Member sufficient credit for intimate acquaintance with
affairsohfitenve(rltylr. Grote) in setting his testi-
positive testimony
it.hwen pyr private affairs
we
the
iif his senses.—(Cheers. ) He had thus, he thought,
shown that prosperiiy had rather increased than dimi-
nished ; but it was sufficient for lihn to maintain a neva.-
tive, and to prove that no evidence of diminution had
been produced. He now came to the second proposition
involved in the resolution—ethet all the 'listless represented
by the Hon. Gentleman to be so universal, had arisen
from the contraction of the currency consequent upon
the Act of 1819. The Hun. Member had argued that
the want of money had deprived industry and intelligence
of their usual effects in promoting comfort and prosperity ;
but before the House entered into the question whether

Peel's Bill had occasioned the contraction, it might be
worth while to consider whether there had been in feet
any such contraction—(Hear)—whether the currency
was not now quite as abundant during the war? On
tlis point lie had abundant satisfactory end acceptable
evidence in the Appendix to the Report on the Bank
Charter. No. 82 was an account from quarter to
quarter of the average issues of the Bank of Eng-
land from 1805 to 1832, distinguishing notes above
and below 51., and he would compare the currency of
the Bank b, fore 1821 and after 1821, aecordine to
the scale of the Honourable Member for Whitehaven.
in his speech of 1822: he adopted his standard
of comparison applicable to the periods between 1806
and 1818, and 1822 and 1832, and the result revold es-
tablish that in the latter petited the currency was much
and constantly larger than in the firmer. The average
of the eleven years from 1808 to ISIS yeas 16,722,000/,
while from 1822 to 1832 it %Ness 19,282,000/., making a
diff-rence of nearly three millions. Looking at the period
prior to 1819, the average of the three highest years was
19,307,0001., whereas time average of the three highest
years between 1822 and 1832 was 21,167,000/. The
year of lowest circulation between 1808 and 1818 was
13,008 000/ , and the year of lowest circulation between
1822 and 18:32 was 16,224,000/. Take the con-mar:men
upon what principle the House pleased, it showed that
the circulation of the Bank of England had been much
larger during the period since the passing of Peel's Bill,
whack he (Mr. Grote) would take leave to cell a period
of increased prosperity.—(Cheers.) If, ti erefore, it
were true, as he contended it was not, that the prices of
commodities could be determined by looking at the quan-
tity of bank notes in circulation, there ought to be a range
of much higher prices between 1522 and 1832 than du
ring any period of the war. In speaking of the monetary
system as the cause of low prices, the Hon. Member had
entirely overlooked the import int fact, that there never
had been a period at which money could be so easily ber-
rowed, or when the rate of interest was so low as during
the year to which he especially referred. Whenever any
man lr .d tolerable security to offer he could obtain money.
with the utmost facility—a state of things it would be
difficult to show existing during the war. He maintained
chat the eallst, which ueheld plices so much from 1802
to 1816 Was not the Bank restriction, but the difficulty of
preductien and the circumstances created by, the war, at.
t-nded by a constant deficiency of crops ; and he was far
th r vrepared to show that the fall of prices s nce 1819
was °wine to c muse,. connected with supply and demand.
It Hon. Aleinhers would take time trouble to examine how
stocks of various commodities had increased when time oh
structions of the war were remeved, they would see at
mince sufficient cause fur the fail in peices without imputine
io Pe l's Bill any 'nor- than a very slight eff.ct of the
same kind. As an illostr tion he would rew shortly to
the increase in the stock of time great staple article cotton,
according to the circular of the brokers: it would be seen
that in 1819, 1820, end 1821, the supply of cotton kept
perpetually rising beyond the demand for increased eon-
mumptmon. In 1817 the arrival of cotton was 479,000
b,ge, of which 412,000 bags were consumed, leavine a
stock at the close of the year, with whet remained ova r
of time preceding year, of 113,000 bags. to ISIS the
importation was 0.72,000 bags, of which 417,000 bags
were consumed. and the stock remaining was 316,000
bags. In 1819, 545,000 bags arrived ; 432,000 bags
were consumed, and the stuck remaining was 353,000
bags. In 1820 the importation was 571,000 bags, the
constimptien 490,000 bags, and the stock on hand
406,000.....( The Hon. Gentleman stated these figures with
so much rapitlimy, and at the same ti•oe so indistinctiy,
that we ate not quite sure whether we have given them
with perlect accuracy, but the proportions are correct.)
Timis statement showed that from 1817 downwards
the quantity of cotton which annually arrived was
greater than was required for the market, and it was am-
ply sufficient to account for a considerable diminution of
price. Atter some allusion to the vast tracts of America
yet uncultivated and capable of producing cotton, the Hon.
Gentleman observed that the point he had thus established
by reference to one great staple commodity might be sup-
ported by others; but he would not trouble the House
further upon this point, and come to time third proposition
of the Hon. Slaver, vie., that the mischief done by the
contraction of the currency otight now to be rectifi d. He
(Mr. Grote) was persuaded that no English Parli meat,
reformed or unrefermed, could possibly con,ent to a mea-
sure of such immorality—(muds cheering)—since the ef-
fect of it would be to subvert all existing contracts, and to
inflict a tax open creditors for the benefit of debtimr.—
(Hear, hear.) He would not believe that, with time unjust
ateward in the Scriptures, they would say, when a hundred
measures of corn were due, " Take thy bill quickly, and
write fifty."—(Cheers.) He submitted to all who heard
him, whether, consistently with policy, with expediency,
or with the cormnonest principles of integrity, they could
countenance the most remote approach to such a change?
—(Cheers.) The House had been told that it would re-
medy distress ; but surely those who maintained this opi-
nion had nut looked carelully to the consequences of mime
proceeding. Who, he would ask, would refrain from
consuming his substance—who would endeavour to save
for his family—if the Legislature might thus, on even
occasion interfere to rob him of the fruits of his industry?
It any Hun. Member had a specific proposition to make
r.-garding the Currency-e-lf he could point out any moee
of making it more effectual for its legitimate purpose, he
should be ready to listen ; but he maintained that it would
be a flagrant abuse of legislative supremacy to apply its
power intentionaliy either to lower or elevate prices. It
would be a gross abuse of the trust reposed in a Befornattl
Parliament, and he for one would Weyer consent to it.
The original motion and question were then put, several
Shinners rose to address the House, but the House called f r
Mr. COBBETT, who spoke to the following effect :
Before I speak on the motion before the House, I shall beg
leave to allude to what tell from the Hon. Member for the
City, who is One of my representative:. The Hon. Member
took much pains to show that ail the Acts of Parliament
relative to altering time value of money, and about issuing
the une•pound notes, and preventing the issue of them, of
which time Hon. Dletnher tor Whitehaven spoke at such
length--bad no effect at all. That they neither raised nor
lowered prices, and were of no consequence.*(A laugh.)
The Hun. Illetzib,ir said sotnething about supply and
demand regulating the quantity of money, and made it
ouc that the Acts of Parliament had no effect at all.—
(Hear.) But I metnember soon after the passing of the cele-
brated Bill of time very celebrated Baronet on my right
hand, that prices fell so low that they made haste to pass
a Bill to put a stop to it. That Bill had hardly passed
when prices rose again, and contiuued to rise till the sys-
tem came to an end in 1825 and 1826. Then the Bill
was passed to put a stop to the issue of mate and two-pound
notes, and prices 1.11 and continued to fall. At that time
I presented a petition to this House. I highly approved
i,f the return to payment in the King's coin, and of Ora-
sularly rutting an end to time dirty, infamous paper money
—(A ',tigh)—hut I besought the House, if it passed the
Bill, to reduce the expenses of the country, and I told it if
it did pass the Bill, and did not reduce taxation, it would
in Mg such ruin on this country as no state had ever ex-
perienced.—(Hear, bear.) Aly representative, however,
in such reas,n,ng as he used, stated that he could nit
support the proposition of the Hon. Member for White-
m aven. lie called it immoral, and a robbery, and referred
to Holy Writ, and said it was like telling a man to take
WS bid and write down 501. in place of 1001.—that it
was cheating ; and yet he says that the Acts regul.ting the
issue of imaper money have had no effect at all.—( Laugh ter. )
Sly Hun. R-prtsertt ative must review his philosophy.
I ere is another o.i,inion w irch I have Imes to night
equally wrong, and of a more dangerous description, and it
is not ore less dangerous becau-e it has been generally
adopted by the gentlemen who have occupied ti ,e
bench opposite. The Noble Lord (Althorp) had in pert
adopted the plan. The argument was, that in the same
proportion as sugar and coffee, for example, were con-
turned, in that same proportion were the people well off
an' happy. How? How was this consumpti.rn ascer-
tained by the amount of the tax, so that in proportion as
the peop.e paid taxes, they were well no.) They
woof. be better off .lien if they had more taxes.—(No,
nu—laulater.) Supposing the tax the same and the
mamma of popula iou the same, the increased quantity
C,,llbUtned is known by the incieised revenue. Tile greater
the quantity consumed, therefore, the more tax is paid,
and tire happier are the people.—(llear, and laughter.)
There were many things to be considered in tais staement.
I can show that the population remaining the same, and
the rate of the tax the same, that the increased amount
of the tax may be taken as a proof, that the population of
the country is increasing in misery. How can I shotv
this? Suppose the tax to be on sugar—soldiers like sugar,
though, perhaps, I should make the case clearer if I were
to take soinething the soldiers like better than sugar, and
which goes down the throat somewhat easier—but I will
take sugar. Now, )ou raise au army of 100,000 men,
and you tax the industrious people to pay that 100,000
men. You give the taxes to the soldiers, and the soldiers
buy sugar instead of the people, and
the amount of .he
tax may be the same or
greater than before. Bat the
wore soldiers you have, and the more sugar they consume,
the greater will be the demands on the people, the greater
will be the amount of the revenue from sugar, and the
wore miserable the tax payers.—(Hear, hear—no
ta.) It is of great importance that this argument should
be set aside it it can be. If you take away from time in-
dustrious people, and give to the idle, you may go in-
creasing the revenue which the idle consumers yield, bu:.

• you give to the idle in the place of the industrious ; and,
while the amount of the revenue is increased, you increase
the misery of the industrious pcople.—(Hear, hear. ) I
shall now state that I intend to vote for the motion of the
Honourable Member for Whitehaven—( Hear, and
laugh)—thoneh his doctrine may be wriig. I ant no,
of the same opin:on as the Member for Wbitehaven as to
money ; but that is not the ques•ion.--(Hear, hear.) The
prop,sition is to go into a Committee of Inquiry ; that is
—(Heir, hear ) It is nothing but for an inquiry. It
is said that the people will take fright if the House inquire.
What, will they be frightened if we inquire into notitirn.:
but the state of their distress, and its causes, including,
amongat others, the changes which have been made in the
money of the country, and the effects of Acts which have
been passed for regulating the issue of Bank notes in that
distress? What can be more proper titan to inquire into
the changes in the money ? It has been tossed up and
down several times. Parliament has meddled with it over
and over again, and the people want to know the facts of
the case. If the people now have their own Representa-
tives, why should they not inquire into why thi: was done.
and for what purpose it was done, and into its conse-
quences ? Nothing can be more proper. We are not booed
ro agree to the remedy proposed. I quite agree as to the
causes of the distress, but I do not say that enough has nut
been Enid about paper money as the remedy. There is
mailer mode of going to work. The Ministers must either
cut dot n the taxes, or they must put up the money. I
should, in the Committee, propose to cut down the taxes.
When the Bill was before the House in 1826, I said it
would work mischief, and it has not dune its work yet.—
(Hear, hear.) I then declared that it would be confisca-
tion, and end in ruin. The Hon. Member for Essex, as
he BO doubt rem,•mbers, said, in 1819, that the evil was
only in the transition from paper to gold, only during the
progress of the change, during the time we were going
front the paper ; and that wren we had got the gold, we
should have no more inconvenience. Well, we have got
the gold ; but we have not got to the end of our inconve-
niences.—(Hear, hear.) If we go on as we have !nen
going, we shall go on to the ruin of the country ; we
shall bring down the middle classes to that state in wh!ch
the lower class now is. The Noble Lord is not aware of
the state of the middle clssses. He heirs only flatterers,
and they tell him nothing but flittery. I would have pre-
vented the passing of the Bill which occasioned this. I
pre-ented a petition against it. T asserted that, if you did
not reduce taxation to the standard of 1792, you would
produce ruin and misery to the kinedom, such as had
never been seen.—(Latetver.) I told you tit t, then, and
you laughed then as you laugh now. You always did
l,ugh.—(Oh, oh !) There is a time to laugh, and a time
to weep ; and if you laugh now, you may weep hereafter.
(Heir. hear.) I differ from the Hon. Member as to the
r tnedy. I agree with him as to toe Cause of the distress.
I stand up for gold. but I ant for the reduction of taxes to
• the standard of 1792. I want the taxes redueed to
the amount of the taxes in the year 1792. That
is the remedy.—(Hear, and a laugh.) I ate not for that
reduction which was called the B ottget. I am not for
t tkin• off 100 0001. of taxes. Was a Reformed Pot lia.
orient wanted for that? The people wanted a Reformed
Parliament for what I propose.—(l2,-ar. hear.) They
recollect how happy the country was in 1792—h0w she
was bounding forward in the career of prosp-rity, though
she bad just come out of a disastrous war—the most dis-
astrous war site hat; ever encountered, a, d y, t she was
prosperous. The flert had been reduced, but Spain
offended England, and Pitt fitted out an arm:merit to
make Spain submit. Thar war was called the Catskin
war. Eneland was then dreaded by all around her. This
was at the end of a disastrous war, when the Northern
Pow, rs formed a coalition a Aintit her, cared the armed
Neutrality, but she was ready to meet all the great powers
combined. And what did all this great force c,st then ?
I dare say the House will hardly itelb ye it wh, n I state
it ; the army. the navy, the whale xpense of the ordn :nee
and all in 1792, was only 1,226,943/. or half a milli en
less than the navy alone now costs. And what is this
for ? This is what the people expect the Ministers to ac-
count for. They do not want a miserable budget, with
a few pounds of a ivinp ; they want to know why you do
not reduce the expen•es down to those of 1792. The

dent then was nine millions, and the whole expenditure
was fifteen millions, rather less than what our n army,
ordnance, and other things now cost. This, too, is at
the end of twenty-two years of glorious war—not at the
end of a disastrous war—but at the end of a war
which was to give us " indemnity for the par,
and security for the future ;"—at the end of a war
into which the Spencers and the Portlands and the Fog.
williams drove Mr. Pitt, to get indemnity for the past
and security for the future. "Go on," said old George
Rose—(a laugh)—"only carry it throng, , and at the rare
you will be sure to have indemnity for the past, and secu-
rity for the future." Our dent is now 28,000,000/. a
year. I would not take off one penny of the debt. Ido
not want to make an equitable adjustment—though, till
au equitable adjustment be made by the prices of 1819,
justice will not be done—and that is necessary even for
the safety of the FetntlhtUers themselves. Our deb:,
which Is now 28,000,0001., was then 9,000,0001.:
18,000,000/. are now required for carrying on the affairs
of the country, which Pitt carried on for 6,000.000/.
The people want to know the reason of the vide:elle+•.
They care nothing about the driblets of the Budget—no-
thing about the monetary system ; they want their
burthens taken ff; and they want to know why the affairs
of the country cannot be carried on now as cheaply as they
were in 1792? What makes the difference? Why do we
want 18,000 0001. now, when in 1792 only 6,000,000/.
were required ? Because it has been required to augment
the plunder which the Aristocracy take Iron, the people.
—(Oh, oh ! No, no I) The people grudge the Navy no-
thing. They would sell the shirts off their backs rather
than the Navy should not be rewarded ; but that is no rea-
son why the money should he squandered. I will show
you how this is done. You shall hear : Pitt had 44
Admirals—we have 170.—(Hear, hear.) And the Right
Honourable Baronet, the First Lord of the Admiralty,
admitted, the other day, that the Navy was not
in as great force now as it was in 1792, yet we bave 170
Admirals and Pitt had only 44. What is that for ?

(Hear, bear.) Pitt had 620 captains and commanders;
fiat ours is a glorinue time, for the Noble Lord has got
1,684, and, what is more, he has got 110 men who have
been made admirals since the peace, and 400 men who
bare been made captains since the peace. And why have
they been made? Why some of them have been made
that the two sons of Earl Grey may be placed over the
heads of brave and deserving officers.—(oh, oh ; loud
marks of disapprobation.) Oh, that is unfashionable
(A laugh.) It is not good—it is not good b-,haviour.
Well, I beg your pardon that I let it out.—(Laughter )
We have one commissioned officer to every five seamen
and marines. We have one post cap.ain to every 14
seamen and marines, and we have one admiral to every
125 seamen end marines. Glorious country ! let us be
proud of it.—(Laughter.) In 1792, Pitt's Board of Ad-
miralty, and other officers, cost 58,0001., now ours costs
147,0001. What is that wanted for? The people ask
that. It is only to take money out of their pockets, and
put it into the pockets of the others.—(Hear, hear )
Half-pay, pensions, and allowances to the Navy, at present
are 1,625,000/. ; as much as Pitt's whole navy cost, ex-
cept about 359 000/. What is that for?—(Sir James
Graham, we believe, questioning this statement, the Hon.
nember repeated it.)-1 ask again what is that for?
And I say the people want to know that; and they
want not passer money, but justic .--(Hear, hear.) Do
justice to the people—cut down the expenditure, cr
raise up the money—arid it will be perfectly right._
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord
of the Admiralty, moved• the other day for the wages
of 22,500 seamen and marines, and the sum of 687,000/. ;
but the Hon. Baronet showed, though th t wag when he
was out of office, that 113 Privy Councillors sacked
650,0001. amongst them—(A laugh)-113 Privy Coun-
cillors get as much as maintains all the seamen and ma-
rines. There are some old women on the pension list
who receive more than all the seamen and marines, with
their bedding, baggage, food and all. oh !) These
things the people wanted to have reduced. The scholastic
disiitictions of my Hon. Representative about the value of
money are too refined for them—they do not understand
the matter; but they understand that they pay too much.
Why should they pay more than in 1792, exclusive of
the debt ? They did not ask to touch that, though a
Right Hon. Baronet, whom he saw, proposed to reduce it
30 per cent.—(Cheers.) He did not put confidence in
the Right Hon. Baronet—lie had never done that.—(
Hon Member then referred to the War office accuuots,
which be said were well kept, compared to those of other
offices, but the estimates he saw were the most confused
things possible. An Hon. Member of Parliament could

nut understand them. He then proceeded to praise the
mode of making out the estimates of 1792, in which every
name was inscribed, and then continued)—That was ti.e
manner in which the estimates were drawn up in Pitt's
time, before he was corrupted by the Whigs, who drove
him into a war for the indemnity and security. The
Secretary at War has, I see, 214 persons on his list, as
retired from his office. The Deputy Secretary of Wai
has retired on a pension of 2.500/. I hope the gentleman
has got a good constitution.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
There are 214 clerks on the retired list; but all the em-
ployes and clerks of the office are only thirty-three; and
these 214 persons have pensions f r their lives, costing
the country no lees than 51,000/. Why should they
swallow op the property of the people ? They had served

A g tbg
but a short time, and had been well paid 'ut!! rt;tl,
of their service. Nobody
remember, a few niAts ago, when I wa, sree,ei
the practice of justices, who mete game
6 Pree,
the ita
selves, banishing men for ',cinching, teat
toel,
Learned Gentleman, the Member for fle!cled
fe
task, and, using some learned words, ac nosid
captantluin 001908—of fl Aterilla the mob.
pet
it w 0, flattering the mob to say that it wasn:flo
men should be banished or hanged by jtolliel ~Fit
game preservers; but, in spite its being ag.7.,:c
I flatter the mob, I must assert that it is notri
the people pay 58,000/. to those people 'shat, tlel
can say that th's
paid while they served them. One is put °l:oipPi
tither may be pet in ; and after the one ". br
lounges into the offices, picky his teeth, end reedso,
way for another.—('No, df
make
paper for a year or two, be is placed
impatience.) I minted the names of thesebrutl,s,
as I wanted the names of the stamp di`tn
could not get thein.—(Coughing--in irks of letSe,
If I had the name., 1 could show in what mannets:f
are robbed, and who rob them ; hut 11,,at,„)
no —"nrtih-taea 'ejtr;;..„
names, I can only guess at it.--(Hear, re"oerr
not detain the House. I will only add this
el
rt
If the affairs of this country had been triana;9l,r
peace in 1811, as they were manager, is 1 tit
taxes had remained the same, and we bad Parld,p.
thing of the interest of the debt, the b'el'leotK
have brought forth such a budget as that of rti,e,or
but we should have paid off 260 millions or 7101,
of the debt since the peace—caleuleting the
if
pound interest, as we inisht on this Pdr,feift:bn
have amounted to four hundred millions ; anub toe
cracy had pail their proper proportion of the
ma tilt have paid off six bundled millions
(No, no! Hear, hear, and marks of inipati:vre
bd
vote for going into the Committee. Tideinineli
robber —there has been plunder, that 7 flit
sides ; and is there nobody responsible far
error is
ble Lord says, that if we committed an ertoot
that is no reason why we should commit
But if an error has been commltted--if 3 Or
V .;
piece of injustice has been practised--are Come
quire into who committed it? It would g•
that there is noaorly responsible for such Vliefl'iits
the responsibility of office only mean respoositt%ool`4.
the salary? I will sit down, thanking the h lad
attention with which it has heard me; 'l,bl/icon)
I can assure it. greater than I expected.^-q i
Mr. RICHARDS rose amidst great noise Irdeer
l•aving the House. We uaderstood °) °les°
proposition of the Hon. Member for OltihaintisfyVo
plunder. Neither did he think that the Nab:id Pelf
sire took a proper view of the question. die /the
that the Bill, which was called by the nallic:d•
Hon. Baronet near him, was properly satn;:rein'i
Bill should rather have been called Lord .11.6,:e
or„,
for be was the real author of it. It had ►rt,''
the hands of the Right 11 n. Baronet (Wl'oc i
tfriiintn)
t u
Ireland e
lie wasslortltt an
previoauescotompthi time °` otr6tila
ished rh
could do justice t the question, while the u
mt
piifta150:::0::4011
the Exchequer of that clay was but a Priir,,,l4,
an
creature.—(Loud laughter.) recollect
e gallery the Right Hon. Baronet make the- itOA
which he introduced that Bill. A friend 'F
who inquired what he thouelit of the • 11.1
13 /tenet's speech ? His answer was—" That,bre'r),
0-pt eus was not more sweet."—(Loud !3ef'd
was himself against any change in the stand'
p 0
hk. wished Mr inquiry, and would give hisoi
Friend
Noble the
rildl coin b e r for kit it'd
It had been sail t the
sent low rate o inierest saowed thaPr Zi't'rie:;ftti-0301
ful and trade pr
s.
say f loft
e nllott`.
high, pr•
ofits were hria;:lai
r.te of interest. was
li to
fm
k!iowl dge as a merchant, that th
showed not that motley was superaltundaat%
could not be wed invested, lie a, uld 'af;:be
diminish ; and he was convinced th'act:
catsses tees woefully ditninished, and that tll#l
that when
profits
orwfiawthds.7lwpi eirt, ;cep:
eria;:t
not it 11111 • t end in ruin. He had a
to propose, which he would tieg to submit to noire
or the Ileus . His plan was, that Irish harl
rasd.„e'
the notes of E. glish country banks should be
tle Pr
able in Bank of Engle .d notes, and that rdi,) of
England alone (as was proposed by Mr
issue 11. notes He thought that country ba-ti,a•
te
not to be allowed to issue U. notes, 'Teel the
would moat generally be in the an 'de, art eirot
class a of country people, on whom the PI to
would ceme in case of failures ; and it Was
the 13
count lie would limit the issue of 1/. notes to b 4 '
England. He would make bank notes P5%,11.10
geld coin, as at present, but in ineots c t 251• g
effect of this pl in would be to give bankers i'n' e
oliet
facility of extending credit. It would tbra,il',
coffers of the country bankers, and allow them tea'
circulation that c ipital they were obliged t°;ted
teeir coffets. Gold would thus only be rege
kept in London.
Mr. FORSTER said th it the working 011'410'0
it was he fashion now a days to consult in aaoralt,4
did n tgo alon with the Hon. Itleulber lor doe
in the object of his motion. The very 'li4tit-tie !J
nett,ei this night was calculated to prodnec
the sr?'
evils. It they attemp ed to tamper withnatioa
y would find that they were leading the 0004 A
an t bankruptcy. To sum up his opinion in ,inido
with respect to this affair, he considered its
equalled except by its injustice.—(Hear, heat'ible fit
itt
iinp
inn lio
House to consider that it had any other (PK:: or, th
. P.
from the standard of value as at present -,,''afeeteii
b
t Aetnlesiiiii
de
0) r
yt
a• ieetti
po 1- la
arid nakedly before the Hetne. The raja to f
o
thin
of the
wis
por
f
y,d,e.ihts
(t),rlei
differing
dicnogntdofirt
inquire
himfe
iat:liteo . (1,t710,
efotbrne7.oo,::
d,:ehls,l:sai'ilsad(PisemSt,'llvioeltiNtie:qltnulus,esearsbi tdaaiti:iittinet‘l,llot'p':aitias,it
torsom
ip
jt
that distress. He wished to touch as high sr
it
dbeing iffering as it chid from that of thertudii duty
vetvHri
oetton'h'oal.
et pie
oieltteilete;tls:l:l::('
iolehelpigesu(;:tanilr.
on iha
distress complained co.
pared to
tunatrly g
d'imltilylib(ifadjislaa'tietrne:P.ettlarsia:ts'i.reh:‘a,:aueo: tiietfeohl litinta'afhttefm'erlvi oaaiumnt: whatceers:a icntth.ce classes
:Hste(b:ne lics:14:1
d; glee of
large was
•
,socaffir,
(lc;
his official
ii,dtkotticioounhmbeeeye.wnat,nsil:inoimu,senputisethieaooofumfltdiit:hetvaeeknHetnounrie.f 610:;:eihrreitat oc'o-0;
lewaosnriscilthloe
ruosss:i
delusive
eos no
compared
oivmnapluta
valueless.
leeeds
9(.3woivtriehrent
hmtveie,pnbrteedegi:?to
del
thin to the n
6TBh,eoos auto totalgivin
giving
ytehaerlylaoveyreaagres: I:fe(6)no,drsi norgo3:0;0:1._,":1";
las, 10 years, ending in 1832, the amount e
was 62.900,0001., or a yearly average, Oefis I 4
6.200,000/.; consequently, on the 10 Yearoool',
aft)e•Heu ,nnietaitarer,ndi
);t o actualinAl6ci csporseer reduction
nectegitlnieott:
proportion
(fer:n:geretraiti
osirmunley:vvoa6ra,
to:l3,oe.,pohoe:ooteroroecier,;:aoi
poet-rates, although the increase in t" iediedcae,
am
1811, the poor-rates amounted to 13s. la'„"olt7"!„. eta.
th
e
tl:ilbt,
:ins(); eeitce,atgirb(rit,
taal:0(
..)rtxobkleofei.d(i.wttni I;tcaihtn(i idpni
rtasri
oodani.idpw:nr)ineeuci,nsranireswcri'deretoahrivisfloaileisiansin,Gns,3ldgald'lffavotiedshoifagigiersosrGoy(
netita:rhell
affording
I:flgssotasgi‘efcc.aoloft:rwiauwidni.nrHciht
to:
rvilee.eyesaja:sgsg
o,;!iat.prae2:ol,:eoneloil
rareegtebetell lee:°;:i.,',':ejjetlitioe door 1,1
oso,
state one facts with respect to the past ati son,' ;10',
e
o
e
d
e
armingham, and he chose those great toW°l-, t"
-o,t,
„ntiee Abe
1 • g nera, y, it must pervade the comtnentio and
that they amounted to 5,700/. ; / ina'jo I !a°l
forgotten that the population of7'BG°lfftig.°97:.
nearly double what it was in 1810 ; 1.:13,e Pro"
increase of double the former amount in 'Q-20 cn
and a diminution in the poor rates since
one-half.—(Hear.) The secretary of t duriklf
C iminerce at Glasgow had inf ?rased him_rand
I st year thing. had very much itoprosreal.
_OO,O
prospects of the ensuing year were impress
,ers'e.oetaerr,,Vi
many persons entertained fears that a littro,t..„ert
verity would be productive of the evils
tt.
Calico printing was in a prosperous state, :the
f., ture went on very well, and theh eine,„Yra,:
classe' of trade and manufa,ture had avetiv,i
and, with the exception of the !mod
rl in ISt,e
ceived good wages.—(Hear) 811e,faiels20 t s,
poor rates amounted to 31,0001. ; ,532,
37,000/. ; in 1830, 18,0001 and in .`ll. siticeol;‘
showing a fiiminution of more than One "
the pel) ip!,
of • delistress a Itr,,
and in those ten years misery an s hot J, ,f
had materially increased, while then
e. sties
formed him that the workmen cf t
(1,614
off and as comfortable as they had b. • wait
He nowt cattie ttis ,jorr
for the last 30 years.
true half. —(Hear.) Tne Master Clattlerpi; weseava)l,l9s,
he had the honour to represent, sad at