The Sun.
London, England, 1833-02-23 00:00:00

IMPERIAL p4RLJAMFNT..

. . .
HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 22.
On the Loan CHANCELLOR. taking his seat pa; shei
Woolsack, at five o'clock, -.there were scarcely a -doierti
Peers pfefient. • .•
A RIGHT Ray. PRELATE presented a petition for the
batter observance of the Sabbath.
The Earl of RODEN presented petitions front C Ivan,
Cupar in Fife, Kirkcudbright, and the Borough of An-
strother, for the immediate abolition of slavery.
Lord SUFFIELD presented petitions from Stretford in
Lancashire, and from Perth, praying for the in:mediate
abolition of slavery.
; NoRLE Loan presented several petitions from Far-
,),en, Great Bnwding, in the neighbourhood of Market
Harborough, and other places in Northamptonshire, pray-
ing for the immediate abolition of slavery.
Lord SALTOUN presented a petition from Inverness,
praying for the better observance of the Sabbath.
Mr. BERNAL, and other Ilemhers of the House of
Commons, brought up the report of the Committee upon
the hotter observance of the Lord's Day.

DISTURBANCES SUPPRESSION (IRELAND)

BILL.

Earl GREY moved the order of the day for the third
re ading of this Bill.
Lord TEYNHAM could not let the present opportunity
pass without expressing his decided disapprobation of the
Bill. In his opinion nothing could conduce so much to the
disunion of the two countries as. this Bill, which in his
humble judgment must lead to such a result. It was
a measure which- be deeply -deplored, the mote espe-
cially- as it w7s brought fetward by Ministers—athe
most honest of any that had filled their places
for a long time ; and he could only suppose
they were acting under a very strong delusion. If
Noble Lords would look at the late returns, made by the
Chief Constables of Ireland, they would see that the state
of society in that country was progressively improving.
The only causes of daturbanee now in that country, were
the collection of tithes and Church cess_(Hear, hear)
—and be thanked his God that, by a Bill
lately introduced into the other House of Parliament,that
latter source of dissatisfaction was likely to be done away
with. Many Not Lords in that House might remember
a similar discussion to the present, relative to the affairs of
America. They might also recollect, that even the
eloquence of a Chatham was at that time disregarded.
When he took that into consideration, he could not
expect that any thing which fell from such an. humble in.
dividual as he was would have any effect ; hot still, when
such a fatal measure was brought forward, he could
not help stating to the House how deeply he deplored
that such measures had ever been brought forward,
and more especially by the present Ministry. Oil
former occasions when the. Constitution had been sus-
pended, documents had been laid before the House; but in
this case, so far from that precedent having been followed,
their Lordships had not even a petition before them, salting
the necessity for such a measure. What was the case made
out by the Noble Earl ? Why, that there had been collision be-
tween the populace and the police ; but would anyone say
that the constitutional law in England should be sus-
pended, beciuse there had been a collision between the
smugglers arid the preventive men in Kent ? In many
of those collisions, upwards of 400 people had been engaged,
and would soy one say that was not as much a
civil war as the which wee now said to rage in Ireland?
He knew that it was almost useless to speak against this
13e1, supported as it was, but he nevertheless felt it
to he his (ay to raise his voice against a measure,
tie consequence of which he so touch dreadeee
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If they turned to history, they
would find that violent and arbitrary measures had never
succeeded iu obtaining their objet. There was one omissi,n
in the Bill, to which he would pit ticularly call the attention
of the House. No provision was made in the event ot a
dissoquien ot Parliament, as to what the powers of the
Lord Lieutenant should be. Was he still to have the
power of suppressing the voice of elec ors ? Was he, by
preclemation tie atop contested elections and make the
elec,ors vote,, like slaves, for whomsoever he pleased?
Another point he thought their Lordships'ought to consider,
before they left the House, was, the matinee in which
a person might be conveyed from one place to another,
and at length be entirely lost sight of by his friends.—
(Hear, hear.) The state of Ireland put him very
attach :n mold of the description given by the historian,
of the Roman Empite in the them of Tiberius. Under
that tyrant the world was one vast prison: No bole.,
bars, or dungeons, were.wanted to secure hie enemies, for
they could riot e•cepe from him go where they might.
The Earl of WESTMORELAND thought it but re-
spectful to his Majesty's Ministers, to make a few obser-
vations upon giving them his support on this occasion.
After the able exposition of the Noble Earl (Grey) the
other night no men could question the necessity of the
crown being invested with fresh powers to carry the law
into effect. lie thought, too, that those who took upon
themselves the responsibility of passing such a measure,
ought to have been left to frame it as they pleased, and he
almost wished that it could have passed without observa-
tion. He thought the thanks of all classes of the com-
munity, but more especially of the poor deluded people
of Ireland, were tine to his Majesty's Ministers for the
firm and decided manner in which they hail brought this
subjeilt forward. For his own part, be gave them his
sincere thanks, and thought lie might be permitted to
give them also in the name of the Noble Gentlemen, his
colleagues, with whom he had acted during the late reigns,
fords Sitimouth arid Liverpool, the Duke of Portland
arid Mr. Pitt, who, when placed in circumstances
of the like nature, had also stepped forward and fearlessly
done their duty, by asking for powers beyond the
fie thought a great responsibility rested upon the Noble
Earl (Grey) for his having, in time of peace, brought
Ireland to the state in which it now was. The
present, however, was not a time to bring for-
ward charges against the Noble Earl, or to investigate
them, but to strengthen the bands of the executive power
for the restoretien of tranquillity, and he should therefore
vote for the third reading of the Bill.
The Bill was then read a third time, and, vet hal
amendments having been made, was paned, and ordered
to he taken down to the Commons.
CHANGE OF VENUE BILL.

Earl GREY rose to move the second reading of the Bill
lie had last night presented to their Lordships to change the
venue in certain cases in Ireland. This Bill rested upon the
same grounds as that which had just been passed, viz.,
the disturbed state of Ireland, and the.inadequacy of the
law in its present state to provide for the security and
good government of Ireland. All such measures as
this must rest upon the necessity of the case.—(Hear,
hear.) Ile should be ready to concur with the Noble
Lord who made so fervent and eloquent a speech
against this Bill, if he could show that it was not neces-
sary. Nothing could justify such a Bill as the present,
aav more than such a Bill as that just passed, but absolute
necessity, and on that ground it was, and that ground
only, he rested the proposed measure. With respect to
what had fallen from the Noble Earl who spoke last, he
would not be tempted, by what was very like a taunt, to
recur to past transactions, but would merely observe,
that circumstances might exist which night make
a Noble Lord unwilling to agree to such a measure as that
just past at one time, whilst at another time be might
think it his duty to oppose it. He must add, however,
that he bad never executed a more painful duty
than that which was now imposed upon him by
the necessity arising out of the state of Ireland.
This Bill was intended to give power to change the venue
to the neighbouring county, or to Dublin. The history
of Ireland, unfortunately furnished them with avariy pre-
zedents for a Bill like this. The eleventh and
twelfth of George the Third, referred to all the Acts
upon the subject, and it was singular that at that
time precisely t he same species of offences were enumerated,
as the reasons fur those Acts, as now prevailed, viz., at-
tacking houses for arms, the infliction of severe bodily
punishment upon those who resister; the daring violations
of the law, the threats to compel the relitiquislutient of
leases, and above all, ffenees arising out of tithes. in the
6th section of the Act, the intimidation of jurors was
referred to as rendering necessary the change of
the venue.---( Hear, hear.) In that Act, the venue could
be only changed to Dublin, whereas, in the Bill before
the House, it might be changed if practicable to the ad-
joining county. Another improvement in this Bill upon
the former enactment, was, that the venue cull only be
changed by the Court of King's Bench at the instance of
the Attorney-G,heral, or of the person accused.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) With nspevt to the duration of t 4 e
Bill, it was limited to the same period as that which had
just passed the it Lordships' House. These being the
principal provls ons ot the measures he would not
trouble the House any forth r ; but begged to cooclude
by moving that it be now read it s: cued tune.
The Earl of WICKLOW bad 11,,p,,d that the N ells
Earl would have consuued the Law Officers of the Clown
in lielatol, as to the propriety ot eat miitig the character
of the Bill. He ti ust d that the Noble Lord would con-
sider his suggestion, otherwise he (the E,rl of Wicklow)
would move that it be extended to five years.
Earl GREY en ert itied little doubt that it might he
advantageously extended for a long- r period, although
at. present he thought it wutai 1) looter to limit its
duration to the period he bad named, and to brin6 it

cater the eod sideration of the House next session, by
b(vhi,t, time tlt,ey would have the experience of itsoperation.
Lord ELL ENBOROUGH did not rise to offer any
opinion upon, the duration of the Bill, hut merely to offer
observati on en a point that appeared to be ape :A to
by both tidy sof the House. Both sides seemed to wish
that this restrictive measure should be removed, as soon
tl,e :necessity for its existence should cease.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) Upon that point he begged
to cal their attention to the words of Lord Bacon,—
" Nothing so destroys authority as all untimely and un-
-4 gnat change of powers, either pressed too far, or relaxed
too much." He thought as much injury would occur by
taking off coercive measures too soon as by beginning them
too late. He traced in the conduct of all previous Govern-
ments, and be saw, perhaps, in the conduct of the pre-
sent Ministers, that fatal consequence, that Ireland bad
peen, and was still, placed in a state of alternation be-
tween permitted and unpunished lawlessness, and crime
punished too far. He was satisfied that much of the crime
in Iceland had grown out of that very cause, and from the
very fee.ing that lawlessness had been permitted for a long
time, sad when at last it was punished, it was punished
with severity.

Lord WYNFORD was cf opinion that it would be
highly beneficial if a permanent measure was introduced
into England and Ireland, giving the power to Judges to
change the venue in any case they thought fit. Some
means ought also to be adopted, in order to prevent
the public money being wasted in the shape of
costs of witnesses, &e., at the same time every opportu-
nity should be given to prisoners to prove their innocence.
Earl GREY,said the Bill already provided for that oh-
jt•ct. Although he did not wish at present to extend the
;duration of the Bill, it was merely because he was de-
sirous that time should be given for consideration, and to
;have some experience of its operation.
The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with his Noble
iEriend (Earl grey), that it would not be advisable
ie. ithout experience, to make this Bill permanent.
He agreed with the Noble Earl (Wicklow) in many of his
sentiments; but this Bill, along with the other measure
iwith respect to Ireland, set out upon the assumption that it
!Was only the extraordinary eta e in which Ireland was,
that could have rendered the bringing forward of the
atieastires ses•etsary. The sooner that these Bills could
!he repealed, the more gratifying it would be to the
whole country, and to none more so than to those
!who had introduced them upon their own responsibility—
Ibis Majesty's Ministers. They were of all men the most
adverse to at all trenching upon the Constitution or the
;rights of the people. They were afflicted, but the necessity
Iliad arisen, and they had no choice, but of all others they
'would he the most anxious to see such a state of affairs
'arrive when with safety they could be repealed.
Earl WICKLOW explained.

•
The Earl el CLONCURRY said he expected the Jury
Bill introduced into the other House would do away with
any necessity for the permanency of this measure, other-
wise he would have been most anxious that, even at this
time, it should be so established.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
Ire committed on Tuesday.
The House then adjourned till Monay, ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMAIONS, FZl3liti4RT 22.
The SPEAKER took the chair shortly h, fort tour o'clock.

Mr. Holmes presented the Report of the Commis-
sioners of the Port of Arundel.
The SPEAKER informed the House that Win. 13!ount,
•EN , who had presented a petition against the return for
the borough of Stafford, bad nor entered into his recog.
• riszances. The order, therefore, for taking the petition
into consideration, was discharged.
Mr. GROTE presented a petition from certain inha
hitants of the city of London, !or leave to tiring in a Bill
to make an Arcade from Bartholon.ew.lane to London-
WA I.—Referred to a Committee.

On Mr. BENETT bringing up the report on an En.
closure Bill, ielating to a district in Wiltshire,
Mr. POTTER moved, as an amendment, tbat no Ma-
6SttatP should have the power to stop up any footpath
without the consent of the rojotity of the inhabitants of
'he parish in rtstry as.en.bled. The Hon. Member called
the attention of the House particularly t, a provision in
the 8.11, giving power to two Magistrates to stop up any
footpath. . _ _

BENETT thought it exceedingly inconvenient for
parties to press 'his clause on a private Bill, as at the pe•
tiod when the General Turnpike Act was brought before
the House it might be considered.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought that the nature of the
pro used clause ought to insure it a cordial reveption in
the House. A most arbitrary power, if not corrected, was
to be given by this Bib, to two Magistrates, to curt Ail the
enjoyments of the poor, by stopping up tb it walks. There
was tio much power already given, and he trusted the
House would put an end to it.
Mr. WARBURTON would advise his Hon. Friend
(the Member for Wigan) to withdraw the clause,. if the
Hon. Member for Wiltshire would undertake to insert it
in the General Turnpike. Act.
Mr. CORBETT protested against the passing of the
Bill with that clause in it ; for the Hon. Member for
Wiltshire well knew that that clause gave a new power
to the Magistrates. By the General Turnpike A. t, the
lath George IL, power was only given to two Magi-
strates to stop up footpaths where a better and shorter
road was found. As to the expense of the parties he did
lint care, for he thought the introduction of such a clause
gave a very dangerous power to the Magistrates.
Mr. O'CONNELL supported the motion of the Hon.
Member for Wigan.
Lord G. SOMERSET would give his support to the
11:11, but as to the general principle involved in the clause
alluded to, he would he prepared to discuss it when the
question was brought forward.

After some further remarks,
Mr. POTTER withdrew his motion, and the Bill was
! ordered to he engrossed.
Mr. HODGES moved for leave to bring in a Bill for
improving, paving, and lighting the town of Gravesend,
in the county of Kent.

Sir J. ONVEN presented a petition relative to the Lon.
don and Greenwich railway.—Referred to a Committee to
report thereon to ti.e House. _

• Mr. BRODIE presented a petition from Salisbury,
praying for the better observance of the Lord's Day.
Mr. SUA\V presented three petitions to the
tattoo effect from the minister and members of the
H Scotch Church, St. Mary's Abbey, Dublin, from the in-
habitants of Hampstead, in the county of Middlesex, and
from certain householders in the borough of high and low
Harrogate.
General PALMER presented a petition from the house-
holders. of Bath for a repeal of the house ami window tax.
Mr.' O'CONNELL presented a petition from the cor-
poration of chandlers and soapboilers of the city of Dublin,
complaining of the effect of the present state of
drawbacks. Their trade, in consequence of the
state of duty on soap in England was al-
most annihilated. They prayed that some measure
might be introduced for the purpose of giving them relief,
and for that purpose suggested that the tax on soap should
be entirely repealed.
Lord ALTHORP said it was certainly true that
at present the Irish soapboilers were much injured by the
,state of the drawbaCks. There were three modes by
which that could be esmedied—one was that suggested by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman of taking off the duty
altogether; another by altering the amount of the
drawback, and another, instead of taking off all the tax in
Ireland to take off half the tax in England. He (Lord
Altborp) hoped soon to bring forward a measure which
would remedy the gi ievance satisfactorily.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT was understood to say
that he thought a reduction of the duty complained of
wou!d benefit the consumers, but that he did not see how
it could be very advantageous to the manufacturers.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that at present ihe consumers ob-
'tinned it che.iper than they ought, through gross fraud,and a
system that produced the total ruin of the Irish manufactu-
iers. Whaiever alteration the Noble Lord might introduce,
he hoped it would tre for the abolition of Excise officeis.
His constituents were decidedly against allowing Excise
fficers to come into their premises at all ; and he
usted that soon they would be chased from every manu-
factureets door ; their appearance checked industry, and the
ingenuity of the country.—The Fetition was ordered to lie
on the table.

Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from a person
confined in the Sheriffs' Court, in Dublin, praying
for the abolition of the Irish law of arrest. The
Honourable and Learned Member complained that the
law of arrest was productive of the greatest evil
throughout Ireland. No two thieves could play into each
other's hands more successfully than persons might act
under this law. There w, re schedules filed in the Insol-
vent Court in Ireland with debts amounting to two mil-
of money ac ually due, and upon the whole nut even
one shilling in the pound had peen promised.
Mr. RICHARDS considered the in.o:vent laws, not
only in Ireland bit' in England, as productive of great
grievance, and requiring anxious revision. Many thou-
sands of pounds were due upon the schedu!es in the
In-olvent Courts in Eng,and—(Hear, hear)—upon which
one farthing has not been pain.--(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from an indi-
vidual in Leominster, praying that the Hotise of Commons
,would not permit his Majesty's Ministers to pass any mea-
sure for the purpose of es4tblisbing arbitrary, tuibtary, and .

deson.'c pnwe! in Ireland. The Learned Member would
t ke that opportunity of merely stating his heartfelt satisfac-
tion that he had received a great many letters from various
p irts of Britain, from individuals pledging themselves to use
th,ir influence against Parliament passing any measure
whereby to subvert the Constitution, and reestablish in its
place military and despotic law in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. H. GBATTAN condemned the interference of the
police and soldiery upon those occasions.
Mr. STANLEY, after having read the petition respect-
ing Lord Grey's Bill, remarked that the Honourable and
learned Gentlemen had forgotten to state one portion of
its prayer. It was the petition of a single individual, and
atter praying that arbitrary, military, and despotic power
might not be established in Ireland, it went on to be-
.s,ech the House to repeal all Acts enforcing the payment
of moneys under the pretence of supporting Christi-
anity.—(Laughter.)
Mr. O'CONNELL had . avoided alluding to this por-
tion of the prayer, from the circumstance of its having
been so fr!quently before the House. He, however, en-
tirely concurred in it—it had been the principle of his
political life. He thought that all Churches ought to be
supported by voluntary contributions, as in America, and
in Ireland—where the Catholic Church, with a greater
hierarchy, and a far greater number of officiating clergy.
men than the Church of England, was supported, wi•h-
out one compulsory right, by the voluntary contributions
of the faithful. And better was it thus supported than by
money extorted from the people of a different creed, nomi-
nally to support Christianity, but in reality to maintain
an unjust domination, and to give good places to the a:is
tocracy and their connections.
An HON. MEMBER observed, that if petitions from in-
dividuals were to be sought for on the other side, thou-
sands might be produced petitioning the House to protect
the peaceable and loyal inhabitants of Ireland, and to put
an end to the proceedings of mischievous agitators who
embroiled the country to promote their own sordid and
selfi:h views.

M. O'CONNELL—Does the Hon. Gentleman allude
to me?

The HON. MFmnEte alluded to all persons who dis-
turbed the country for their own paltry and selfish ends.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I wi►l answer more distinctly for
the Hon. Member. He does not allude to me.

Mr. FRENCH took the opportunity of stating that the
H- n. Member's (Me. Richards') celebrated story was, he
had ascertained, totally unfounded in fact.—(Laughter.)
Mr. RICHARDS was glad that any one of the atro-
cities related of the present state of Ireland was false
(Continued laughter.) He obs,rved that there was a
spirit of hypercriticism in the House, for which he had a
'sovereign contempt.—(Continued laughter.) He had told
the story as he heard it, and as an illustration of his argu-
ment; and even if it were not true his argument was not
the worse.—(Laughter.)
Mr. RUTHVEN thought it would have been more
'manly for the Hon. Member near him to have designated
the agitation he meant, than to have d. alt in insinua;ions.
He hoped the Right Hon. Secrett-iry for Ireiind would
interfere iu the case of Mr. Walsh, and have him set at
liberty.
Mr. FITZSIMON presented a petition from the Queen's
County, praying for the total abolition of tithes, and of
the vestry cess.