The Sun.
London, England, 1851-03-22 00:00:00

of English gentlemen to be used, as appertaining to a
community of Christian ladies, dedicated to a life of reli-
gion and charity. He confidently appealed on such
a matter not only to the accomplished and cultivated
minds of English gentlemen, but to the intuitive percep-
tions of all Englishmen against the prurient fancy of
obscenity, senility, and dastardly insinuations—(the
SPEAKER called the Hon. Gentleman to order)—well, of
such unmanly insinuations against the Catholic ladies of
Engalnd.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was not present
when the discussion arose, but it appeared to him that
nothing was more in accordance with the rules of the
House than the statement of the Speaker.—
(Cheers.) He (Lord John Russell) did not
wish the privileges of the House circumscribed,
but he must say that every one could not but regret
that anything falling from an Hon. Member should give
offence to Roman Catholic Members.—(Cheers.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL hoped, for the sake of order and
decency in their proceedings, such language would not
be used for the future.
Sir R. H. INGLIS said that after the Hon. Member
for Surrey had last night expressed his sorrow if he had
given pain to any one, and after the statement which
the Noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury had just
made, deprecating the introduction of language into the
debate which might give pain to any portion
of the House, he hoped that nothing further would take
place on the subject. Having the opportunity of ad-
dressing the House on another subject, he should say a
few words on the subject of a contradiction which had
been given by the Hon. Member for Dublin
to a statement contained in a petition which
be (Sir R. Inglis) had presented a few nights ago; the
most important point of which was, that an individual
therein named was at that time a postulant in a con-
vect at Clifton, about to become a nun in that con-
vent. The Honourable Member for Dublin, he un-
derstood, had contradicted that statement most distinctly.
It was needless for him (the statement
mot
to state that
he knew nothing of the subject from his own knowledge,
but be held in his hand a letter from the Hou. Craven Fits-
bardinge Berkeley, in which that gentleman having seen
by the public prints that the Hon. Member for Dublin had
contradicted the statement contained in the petition, now
re-asserted his original statement, stating that he him.'
self had visited Miss Talbot in the convent on the lath'
of last month, and had heard from her own lips
and from the superior of the convent that
in six months she would take the white veil, and at the
expiration of twelve months more take the black, and
become a professed nun. Upon hearing this from his
stepdaughter Mr. Berkeley stated that he had strongly
remonstrated with her, and called to her mind the
injunctions of her dying mother with such effect as to
draw from her an exclamation that she had yet six
months to consider on the subject, before she took the
first decided step. The Hon. Baronet, having made this
statement, then proceeded to put the question, of which
he had given notice, to the First Lord of the Admiralty,
as to the causes, if any, of the delay in sending out a
• steamer to meet Captain Austin, R.N., in the Arctic
Seas, during the ensuing summer? This sudden transi-
tion to so entirely different a subject, caused considerable
amusement in the House.
Mr. REYNOLDS did not wish to say anything in
reply to the last question which had been put to him by
the Hon. Baronet for the University of Oxford. In-
deed, he could not say a word to it, but be would sim-
ply state the facts out of which this inquiry arose, and
he did rely upon the intelligence of the House
for adopting a fair view of the matter which
had been laid before them, and he sincerely hoped
that it would come to some definite decision in this matter
lie did not intend t. enter into the discussion of the whole
question. but he would simply refer to a letter which he
had received from Mr. Verney, who had been commis-
sioned to inquire into the whole affair. The examination
had been instite, ed. and he learned from Mr. Verney's
letter that Miss Talbot was not a novice or even a postu-
lant in the convent in which she bail token refuge.—
(Hear. hear, and ironical cheers.) This letter said that
Miss Augusta Talbot 112. d taken refuge in this monastery,
he believed, with the purp •se of becoming a nun.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now, what did Mr. Berkeley
say; why, that he was refused ail intercourse and com-
munfcstion with his step daughter; but he ( Mr. Reynolds;
had a letter from the Bisbee of Clifton—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear," and ironical cheers)—which was a suffi-
cient answer to the charge No. 2. From that letter it ap-
peared that Mr. Berkeley, so far from feeling all the ten-
derness and regard to Miss Talbot which he had professed,
had left it for five or six weeks without seeking any commu-
nication at all; and yet he said that she was immured in
a convent.—(Oh, oh, and hear.) The Hon. Member for
Marrybone.—(Loud laughter.) Well, Mary-le-bone.
But if the Hon. Member would have allowed him to read
the document out, he would not be ready to cry either
" Oh, oh," or " No, no."—(Laughter.) What was really the
state of the case? Why, that Miss Talbot was a ward in
Chancery—(Repeated laughter, and ironical cheers)—
and had been placed in a convent.—(Renewed laughter.)
.He hoped this House was not going to be converted into
a second Exeter-hall, where ranting, was the order of the
day.—(Repeated laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear,"
and ironical cheers.) Miss Talbot was a ward in Chan-
cery, placed in this convent with the consent of the
Lord Chancellor, and enjoying, under proper protection,
all the security that she or her guardians could desire.
She was the heiress of 80,0001., and he had heard from
a gentleman high in the Church that she was duly taken
care of.—(Hear, hear,) He had heard of such things as
Protestant nunneries, and perhaps the less he said about
theme the better.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," the
House being much excited, and ironical cheers
being frequent from all sides of the House.)
That gentleman unwarrantably intruded himself into the
convent at Taunton, and being admitted, he hears from
the lady herself that she was not suffering under any re-
straint—that she was disposed to dedicate herself to the
service of God, and to employ her time in prayer, and if
she thought proper to dispose of her money
in educating the poor or relieving distress, why should
she and her affairs be dragged before this House?—
(Hear, hear.) Why should this House be made a
channel for calumniating a spotless lady?—(Hear,
hear.) Ho beard last night a second edition
of the under current now raging against the
establishment connected with the Church to which he
belonged. He had i esrd second hand what the Hon.
Member for Surrey had said, and yet no English Mem-
ber but the Hon. Member for Arundel had the honesty
to rise and rebuke the Hon. Member for Surrey. No
Member, however, was called to order unless he was per-
sonally offensive, but though the Hon. Member, in what
he said was not personally offensive to one individual
alone, yet his language was highly offensive to fifty Mem-
bers of the House, who professed and believed in the
truth of the Catholic Church. It was an insult to him,
as well as to them, sand he could not let this oppor-
tunity pass without expressing his indignation
at the conduct of the Honourable Member. The Hon.
Member said nunneries were brothels. Why he (Mr.
Reynolds) had visited many of these nunneries.—
(Roars of laughter.) He had relations in many of
them. In one of them he had two daughters re-
ceiving their education, and there was not a Catholic
Member in that House, he would venture to say,
who had not a blood relative in some one of them.
Why, then, should they be maligned—brutally, beastly
maligned? Ho knew of no convent where the ladies
were imprisoned, for they were permitted to walk about
the grounds attached to the convent under proper
superintendence.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) In
spite of that ill-timed laugh, he repeated his state-
ment. He hoped they were not about to have a
repetition of the scenes in Swiss countries, where the
inmates of convents were driven out without clothes in
the depth of winter, exposed to all the horrors of the
season and the inclemency of the weather. The Noble
Lord at the head of the Government was not present
when this gratuitous insult was offered to his creed, but
although during the hour and a quarter that the Noble
Lord was on his legs last night be pointedly replied to
the speeches of the Hon. Members for Plymouth and
Ripon, the Noble Lord not only studiously abstain, d
from rebuking the Honourable Member for Surrey
for what he had said, but seconded the
insult by calutuciatieg the ecclesiesties of the
Roman Cethelie Church. The Nadi) Lord talked
about the clergy of that Church absolving soldiers and
police from their alkgiance, and it his observations
were worth anythieg. they applied with as much
force to a Barren Cetholic Member of Parliament
as to a Roman Catholic soldier, sailor, or
policeman. He for one had taken an oath,
both in the capacity of a magistrate and a Mem-
ber of Parliament, in which he swore that it was
no part of his creed that princes excommunicated or
deprived by the Popo might be murdered or de-
- Posed by the subjects; but according to the Noble
Lord that oath was worthless, because the clergy
could absolve or release him from keeping it.
Re left a bitter feeling behind, under which he smarted,
and he hoped the expression would not be repeated.—
'—'(Hear-) Miss Talbot bad been dragged through the
press, and that leviathan the Times devoted a column
to-day to her case. He had good authority for saying
that she had never become a postulant.—(Hear, hear.)
He hoped the Rouse of Commons would not be made
the arena for the discussion of such subjects.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had thought it advisable
in his speech last e've et, hg not to allude to the subject, as
he was not actually present when the discussion arose.
It was his desire to avoid Saying anything which was
calculated to irritate or annoy
the feelings of Roman
Catholic Member''.—'(Hear, hear.)Ron,
said the Ron.
Member for Dublin
Mr. BERKELEY
had stated what Mr. Craven Berkeley had said was
falsehood; but be dared him to make that assertion in the
presence of his Hon. Relative' What the Hon. Member
for Dublin stated was totally unfoundeea_(Cheers.)
Mr. REYNOLDS, who rose amidst cries of " Order,"
and confusion, denied that he used the wordoifnaglsethoott
or said that the object of Mr. Berkeley in g
convent was to obtain the young lady' moneee—(e pee,)
Lord ARUNDEL and SURREY observed that as, the
case of Miss Talbot was fixed for a heating before the
Lord Chancellor to-morrow (Saturday) it was a great
pity to enter into a discussion of the whole circum-
stances on the present occasion.
Sir B. HALL considered that if the lion. Member
for Dublin had examined the letter of a person styling
himself theßishop of Clifton with fairness and candour, he
would have informed the House that this young lady was
a postulant.—(Hear, hear.) In that letter Mrs.
Henderson stated that, as the convent did not
admit boarders, Miss Talbot had herself suggested
that she should apply to be admitted as a postu-
lant, or a person desirous of taking the veil, and that
she was accordingly
admitted as a postulant into the
convent in the beginning of September last.—(Hear.)
In his petition Mr. Craven Berkeley had stated that his
step-daughter had become a postulant, and the Hon.
Member for Dublin had denied the truth of this state-
ment, and again subsequently reiterated this denial,
whereas the fact itself was deliberately admitted in the
letter from one of his own bisbops.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON said, that before the question was
put he wished to call the attention of the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, and the Chancellor of the

THE

Exchequer, to the state of public business. It was now
the 21st of March, and he believed he might state with
truth that the House had only sat one night
for the transaction of public business. He knew
that the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill was the cause of this
considerable delay, and he wished to put this ques-
tion, as there was only, practically speaking, a certain '
limited duration of the session, and as there were many
other public interests which had a right to be attended
to—whether it was fair to appropriate so large a portion
of the whole session to the discussion of this question
of Papal Aggression? He admitted that great numbers of
of respectable people took an interest in that question—
(Laughter)—but there were also numbers of people who
took an interest in other questions—the coffee duties for
instance. That important trade was now almost sus-
pended, and it became the duty of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer at once to come forward and propose the re-
solutions which would enable the Board of Customs to
make their regulations. The same was the
case with regard to the timber duties, and
he thought that he was entitled to make some
complaint of this unfair appropriation of the public
time. He hoped that if the debate were not concluded,
the Noble Lord would give some intimation that the
question would not be resumed with undue haste.—
(No, no.)
Sir T. D. ACLAND reminded the First Lord of the
Admiralty that he had not answered the question
which the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford
had put to him.
Sir F. BARING said that the Admiralty had come to
the conclusion, after much consideration, that the time
had come when they were not justified in sending out
any more men to risk their lives in this service.
In the present instance there was no object to be gained,
because Captain Austin was provisioned for three years,
and further provisions had been left him at different
places.
Sir E. N. BUXTON hoped that the Admiralty would
reconsider this determination.
Admiral BERKELEY said that nothing could be
gained by this, as the whalers could bring back quite as
much information as any expedition which miaght be
dispatched with orders not to be shut up in the ice.
LANDLORD AND TENANT RIGHT.
Mr. A STAFFORD wished to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet, the Secretary for Ireland, whether it was the
intention of the Government to introduce any measure
with a view to settle the question of tenant-right in
England and Ireland. Such Bills were generally intro-
duced without hesitation, and it was the custom of the
House to pass the first reading without discus-
sion, so that no obstacle whatever was
interposed to the introduction of this Bill. He asked the
question, because unless he received a definite answir
he should give notice that he would shortly put this
question with a view to bring some measure in himself.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that it was certainly the,
intention of the Government to 'bring in a Bill on the
subject as soon as possible, but that in the present state
of public business it was impossiblo to say on what day it
would be introduced.

THE BUDGET.
Mr. ROCHE said, that seeing the extent to which
the discussion on the penal Bill to be imposed
on Roman Catholics had extended, he, with other
Members, was, very desirous of ascertaining the mode
in which the public business was to be conducted. He
gave notice that if this discussion was to be continued
through much longer time, he, with his friends, would
offer every opposition to the Ecclesiastical Titles
Bill which the rules of the House allowed.
He saw that the Noble Lord had a Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and he supposed the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had a budget, and if the great finan-
cial measure was to be postponed for the pur-
pose of passing the Bill to which he had
referred, he should resort to every means in his power to
postpone its settlement. He wished, therefore, that the
Ministry would give an answer to the question to the
Hon. Member for Manchester, Mr. Milner Gibson.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the:question of the Hon.
Member for Manchester, and that put by the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down, were of
a totally different chafscter. The Honourable
Member complained of the delay cf public
business In consequence of the discussion of the Eccle-
siastical Titles Bill. All he had to say was,
that he wished most heartily that the debate on
that Bill had been closed on Monday last,
for he thought that the subject had been
pretty well exhausted:—(Hear, hear.) With re-
spa to the future, after the second reading of the Bill
had been'passed, it was the intention of the Government
to proceed with the army and other estimates before
bringing the Government financial arrangements before
the House.

TIMBER DUTIES.
Mr. MACGREGOR gave notice that on Monday be
should put a question to the Government, with a view
to ascertain whether it was their intention to remit the
timber duties, with a view to relieve ship-owners.
THE CASE OF MR. LEWIN.

In reply to Mr. O'CONNOR,
Sir GEORGE GREY repeated that the young man
Lewin was seen in company with Thomas, the person
who had baen convicted of picking pockets near the Ex-
hibition in Hyde-park. No bail was offered for the ap-
pearance of either, but on the hearing of the case the evi-
dence against Lewin was not sufficient to justify his con-

viction.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said the Right Hon. Baronet had
been misinformed.
FRENCH POST.
Mr. WILLIAM BROWN wished to ask the Under-
Secretary of State what steps had been taken with re-
gard to the English mails from Paris arriving in London
in time to go by the morning mail into the provinces, or
whether any negotiation was now pending on the subject,
as it was understood last year, when the Postal Com-
mittee was sitting, that there was reasonable expectations
that the French Government would expedite these mails
in time?
Mr. C. LEWIS said negotiations were still pending on
the subject.
The motion that the House at its rising should ad-
journ till Monday was then agreed to.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ASSUMPTION
BILL.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The order of the day for the second reading of the Eccle-
siastical Titles Bill having been read,
Mr. B. OSBORNE congratulated the House upon having
substituted a more moderate atmosphere for the tropical
auspices under which the debate was conducted last night.
At the risk of forfeiting the confidence of a large portion of
his constituents, he should honestly speak his opinion. He
had not presented a single petition from Middlesex in favour
of this Bill. No county meeting had been held in that great
county to express distrust or abhorrence of Papal aggression.
Still, a great deal of feeling had been evoked, and he believed
the Noble Lord lagged behind in the opinion of many. But
because a Romish ecclesiastic had issued his mandate in the
language of the middle ages, was the isle to be frighted from
its propriety? Was Parliament to resort to legislation, and
were our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects to be stigmatized
as bigots or branded as disloyal, because Cardinal Wiseman
had announced a comparatively harmless act in an inflated
and bombastic manner? It was said the measure was mild
and harmless. But he said it was the first step to a revival
of the penal laws, and it was not the less so because it did
not propose to hang or disembowel a priest.
" Narcissa's nature's tolerably mild,
To make a wash she'd hardly stew a child."
It was mild became the spirit of the age would not admit
any other form of persecution. The Government had taken
credit for expunging the most obnoxious clauses of the Bill.
Not that he objected to the withdrawal of those two clauses,
for he held, with Locke, that all religious creeds ought to
have their free course, provided they did not interfere with
the well-being of sobriety.—(lronical cheers from the Oppo-
sition benches.) He would implore the Noble Lord to go one
step further. and withdraw the preamble of the Bill alto-
gether.—(Hear, hear.) What had been the sum total of the
arguments in favour of this Bill? Unmitigated vitupera-
tion, with one or two exceptions, of the Roman Catholic re-
ligion.—(Hear, hear.) Take the arguments of all the lawyers,
both of the Chancery and common law bar, who had
spoken in the debate. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
the Member for the University of Cambridge had drawn a
picture of comparison between the States of Belgium, Italy,
and others where the Roman Catholic religion prevailed,
and those where the faith was Protestant, and adduced ar-
guments that might have been more applicable in 1829
than now ; and, curious enough, one whole passage
of the speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
was word for word the same as a passage in the speech of
the Hon. Gentleman who was at that time Member for the
University—(Bear, and a laugh)—stereotyped and ready
made arguments handed down from generation to genera-
tion upon this unfortunate subject of Roman Catholics.—
(Hear, hear.) But he would ask the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman what those arguments had to do with the provi-
sions of this Bill ? How was a penalty of 100/. to hinder the
efforts attributed to the Roman Catholics? Another Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Aylesbury, had
also spoken. Ohl if his lamented frisnd Lord Nugent, who
formerly represented that borough, had been there, they
would not have heard such a speech from him—(Hear,
hear)—and glad was he (Mr. Osborne) to have the oppor-
tunity of paying his tribute of respect to the memory of that
excellent nobleman.— (Hear, hear.) And what did the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman say? He paid a compliment to the
Catholics who were engaged in repelling the Spanish Ar-
meta, and referred to former times, when there was a con-
cordat from the Pope, and the consent of the Sovereign to
the nomination of bishops; but what analogy was there be-
tween those times and the present? lie took it there was
no analogy between England as it was and as it is. But
what said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-
Gsneral ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman made one of
those slashing appeals which did well in Westminster Hall,
but had not much weight in that llouse. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman plofessed to be greatly alarmed at the
introduction of the canon law. He (Mr. Osborne) saw
many lion. Gentlemen shrug up their shoulders, and heard
them say, "How horrible. Only think of the canon law
being introduced here."--(A laugh.) But what was'the canon
law at which they seemed so much alarmed? It had ex-
isted in Ireland from the days of St. Patrick; and he was
astonished to hear the observations of his Hon. Friend the
Member for tt e University of Oxford as to the bull In ccena
Domini, which, in fact, never was introduced into that
country. But how did this Bill affect the canon law ? Was
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General
aware that over vicars-apostolic all that was most arbitrary
and vexatious of the canon law existed at that moment?
Was he aware that under the canon law as it existed now
priests might be suspended and degraded from their office ty
the vicars-apostolic without giving any reason ? The act of
thePope_that we now complained of was called for by the
Roman
as an
insultuat to thishobel country,
nb?r,
y, buttheß
becauseonC they consideredatholicpries i
priests not
necessary for their Church, and the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman ought to know that vicars-apostolic svere more under
the power of a foreign Sovereign than the bishops would be.
In reading a very remarkable pamphlet, written by a late.
Member of that House, ht
give, it was refus d.
had met with an extraordinary
statement, that Mr. Pitt, in suggested to Cardinal
ebfisdboaipnf.l7aa9aw9d'aythwaith vicars-apostolic,
aEnraskappointing
proprietyßritish
that, for someh reason
the writer did not
the system of the Roman Catholic Church
thaaptpointment of bishops?
Proposition. Now, he
tihioenn.,
not teorldyissent from
AGI ern tPI eitt such
t—ahe(t thing, surely .o)tfh 13;1-ifes,
policy ought
without the •
bweouealdrrasiedk,(,cnouplrdop
But to come down to later times. The Noble Lord at the
head of the Government, in a discussion on the state of Ire-
land in 1844, said he thought they ought to do away with
everything derogatdry to the character of Catholic bishops,
-and that it was a most foolish prohibition to prevent them