The Sun.
London, England, 1834-05-10 00:00:00

lima,. (Rear, hear.) The bill took from .a man all hap&
3! relief even under temporary embarrassment, though h
!light be the most exemplary- character that the parisi
auld-prorince.-'(Cri,s No. i.).") If this were no-
s, he should be han%). o;.)po!-ed the bill on th!
,rounds of its driving all p•irr:Jos to be relieved into thr•
•oor houses. It avi.eari-d 1.-y the speech of the hon. mem-
ler for York that whcre the existing per laws had b.'ci
nToperly administered all the desired effect had been pro-
luced ; and this being the case, it was in itself an argu
nent against introducing such a bill as that under discus-
don. He could not, however, think himself justified in
',Toting against the second reading, and merely because it
night undergo such immense alterations in the committee.
:le recollected that at a period when reform was more
canted than it was at present an hon. member for Cum-
)erland, Mr. Curwen, had brought in a bill of reform,
which the ministers had allowed to go into a committee.
,nd it came out of that committee so altered that onl%

.
hree sentences and a half of the preamble of the origma
'ill had been allowed to remain. He saw no reason wh)

he present bill might not be dealt with in the same way.
.V.hen in the committee he should submit whether the se-
feral evils complained of might not be the subject of sepa-
rate bills. ( Hear, hear. )
Mr. RICHA RDS should give his cordial consent to the
second reading of the bill.
Mr. C. BULLER admitted that there were strong
lbjections to the measure as it now stood; but when he
.aw the difficulties of administering the present system he
bought it absolutely necessary that some such power as
hat contemplated in the proposed central board should be
erected, which should be removed from local prejudices
Ind interests—which should firmly and uniformly discharge
is duties. He thought, however, that the powers pro-
losed to be vested in the commissioners were far too ex-
ensive, although the magistrates and overseers required
:ome control. He thought that this check might be
movided by the bill without going to the extent proposed.
In the power that. would be given by the bill as it stood he
eared they would be incurring the danger of creating
something like an unlimited monarchy, in which all the
could have to depend upon as a security from abuse woulc,
03 the personal character of the monarch. He thought it
could be more fit that Parliament should define the powers
Ind the duties of the commissioners, and pass a law for the
;-overnment of workhouses. In such a law much might
ie laid down for the protection of the ratepayers, for
.lefining the labour which should be exacted as the title tc
:elief and for the protection of the poor themselves.
These were, however, subjects for the consideration of the
•ommittee, and he should vote for the second reading 0:,
;he bill.
Mr. WALTER said that the effect of the bill would bt
o abolish the.,whole principle of our poor laws, and to esta-
dish another principle totally different in its nature, and
iot affording to the poor man the same protection or the
came rights as the present laws gave him. The poor of
his country had formerly many rights which they had lost,
tic as the right of commonage, which had been destroyed
uy the system of legislating for enclosures. They had still
he right of demanding employment or support, and if that
,ight were violated they were within reach of the tribunal
appointed by the law to give them relief. By this bill the
-ight was not only to be removed to another basis, but the
source of redress in case of wrong was no longer to be
within his reach, but to be placed in the metropolis,
,where it must in many cases be inaccessible. There
Nu a certain Abbe who, at the beginning of the
French revolution, stored himself with constitutions to
it every theory, and which he reached out of holes
narked in his bureau to meet the different opinions
If the parties who required it. This measure might have
been one of the Abbe Sieyes' schemes, for it had nothing
n common with the habits and wants of the people of this
;ountry, or with the principles of the laws which had been
administered for ages, and must have come from the
)igeon-hole of some theorist utterly unacquainted with the
eal condition of the poor and of their wants. He trusted
hat such a measure would not be persevered in, or that if
,ersevered in it would at least receive the utmost delibera-
ion on the part of that house before it was passed into a
aw. If the motion were pressed to a division he should
eel it his duty to vote for the amendment of the gallant
•olonel ; and he sincerely recommended his Majesty's mi-
iisters to apply themselves to the remedying of the actual
wile of the present system rather than to the creation of a
iew one, which would in all probability turn out to possess
gill greater ones. There was the amendment of the law
if bastardy and the law of settlement; he was sure the)
could find enough in those two items to occupy them and
.he house for the remainder of this session. _

Mr. HUME said he agreed with the hon. member who
.poke last in deprecating the incurring of expense and ex-
,ravagance in the public affairs, and it was precisely foi
hat reason that he supported the bill, by which they
could save millions to the country. (Hear, hear.) The
ion. member, he was sure, must think so too, if he had
lot forgotten what he wrote but a few days ago. (Hear.
end laughter.) This was a bill which took the right tours(
if checking extravagance in the gross, and was not the
bit-by-bit reform which the hon. member fur Berkshire
seemed to advocate. (Hear.) He did not believe that
the bill would be unpopular when it was understood by the
ountry, notwithstanding that means of the most infamous
,ind had been resorted to to make it so. (Cheers.) Teli
,irn of the tyranny of trades' unions ! Why there was no
yranny half so ball as this. (Cheers.) The measure had
,een attacked by the grossest abuse, by falsehood, by mis-
epresentatione, by garbled extracts, and by all the' most
hameful means that could be devised for inflaming the
,assions of the people. (Hear.) He maintained that it
vas because it would be for the benefit of the people that
to supported it. He was ready to admit that some of the
sowers of the bill were unnecessary, but they did not af-
ect its principle, which was all now in discussion. It was
i;s desire to see these commissioners, and all other public
.fficers, made responsible. With regard to the opposition
if his hon. friend the member for Marylebone, he had
hought the present a good opportunity of trumpeting forth
lie doings of the Alarvlebone vestry (Laughter) under
iis presiding genius (Laughter), and he had certainly
lone it in a pretty high key. (Laughter.) But he
,eemed to forget that there were not vestries so im-
naculate in their virtue everywhere, or so fortunate
n those who directed them. (Much laughter.) He
;hould reflect, too, that there was no security even foi
he Marylebone vestry not falling from their virtue,
is other bodies had done, in the lapse of time ; and, there-
'ore, that it might be as well to keep h check upon them
is well as the rest. But when his hon. friend talked of the
inanimity of the vestry against the bill, why, his petition
.vas only carried by a very small portion of the body. Out
if 120 only between 20 and 30 were present when it was
•arried, the debate having lasted all day, and the greater
tart of the vestry being talked out. (Laughter.) Of these
.;eventeen voted for the petition and eleven against it;
ind this was his hon. friend's unanimity. (Cheers and
iaughter.) His hon. friend had said, too, that no man
with brains in his head would suffer the power of the ves-
try to be taken away. He 'had no doubt that amongst his
hon. friend's sill-porters there were some people with brains
in their head, and also some without brains ( Great laugh-
ter), or they would never take such a course. No argu-
ment whatever had been advanced against the bill, eithei
by the hon. member for Berkshire, though he had been so
..arly in the field, nor by his hon. friend, who took so ac-
cive a part in the Marylebone vestry. (Hear, hear, and
laughter.) The only part of it attacked specifically was
the central board, and that indeed his hon. friend appeared
to have erected into a giant of his own imag,ination, which
beset him and crushed him to the earth whichsoever way
lie turned, or raised but an arm. No objections had in-
leed been made in any quarter which applied to anything
but the details, and the only way of correcting them was
by going into committee. 'Upon these grounds he should
vote for the second reading of the bill. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENETT was not afraid of voting for the second
reading of the present bill, although there was much in its
provisions that was objectionable. He objected to the
Central Board, and thought it might be done without. He
thought also that the extensive workhouse machinery was
unnece sArv.
Mr. HAWES rose amidst loud and long-continued
noise of coughing, &c. Having at length obtained a par-
tial hearing, he was understood to say that, representing
ashe
did a very large constituency, he was anxious to state
the reasons upon which he was about to give a vote at va-
riance with the opinions hitherto expressed by that con-
stituency upon this subject. He thought the principle ei
the bill of appointing commissioners having an authority
over all the parishes was a good one, but he did not see
how that principleould be affected by appointing an ap-
pellate Mr. Howt R nanoirplpeal over those commissioners in case
Court of
misusing their authority.
lastedof thet h house,
fruo se,
es, exceedingebvu tr
several
werem mlert. BwrehohrnHoEislleTOL rose to
confusion
which
Mr. BROTHEIrates at length,
TON obtained a partial hearing, and
declared his opinion that, subject to some alterations
and modifications,
which might be effected in committee,
ll Ile thought,
commissioners h ever,
weretha t
pothewberilsl
pwrasepeasegdooetel
givenobnee.
t o the
too
extensive.
Lord ALTHOItP, being loudly called for, rose to ad-
dress the house in reply. He hard great
satisfaction
premising that he did not see any occasion to detain thein
house very long. The objections which had been raised
against the provisions of the present bill in the course of
the evening's debate,- were so few and so inconsiderable,
that he need trouble them with but very few observations.
It was extremely satisfactory to him to find that such a
general concurrence of sentiment existed in favour of the
principles of the bill before the house. Although some
very few gentlemenhadannounced their intention of voting
against the second reading, there was no class of repre-
sentatives of peculiar opinions united against it. The hon.
member for Westm nster had expressed an opinion that the
provisions of this bill were too large ; but if he had
considered how large was the evil that was to be remedied,
he would not have expressed that opinion. If it was at-
tempted by small measures to reform the present evil
system of the poor laws, it would be but a continuance
of the mistaken principlh which had hitherto been acted
upon in legislating on this subject. (Hear, hear. )
It was well known that bill after bill had been ear-
ned through the legislature ulon this subject, which, so
far from having any beneficial effect, had in too many
cases made matters worse than they found them. Another
hon. member bad said that if parishes were left to them-