The Sun.
London, England, 1834-08-06 00:00:00

CAUSES OF DRUNKENNESS.

Mr. BUCKINGHAM brought up the report of the Com-
mittee appointed to inquire into the causes of drunkenness,
which was laid upon the table.—( Hear hear.)
Mr. HAWES complained that the Committee had taken
upon themselves a power which they did not possess, of right.
They had no power, nor were they authorized, by that House
to draw up a report, but merely to lay the minutes of evidence
before the House.

The SPEAKER, said the complaint against Committees
most generally was that they unwarrantably and unjustifiably
abstained from making a report when they should have done
so.—( Hear, hear. )

„
On the question that the Report be printed,
Mr. HAVES said that he should certainly oppose the
printing of the Report. He was quite aware that in doing
so he was taking a very unusual course, as he was thereby
preventing the result of that inquiry which had been sanctioned
by the House, from being laid before it. Hon. Members
would recollect that this Committee had not been agreed to
unanimously, but after considerable discussion, and the report
they had drawn up was of a most extraordinary nature, and
was quite opposed to the interests of his ( Mr. Hawes's)
constituents—to the interests of the public, and was calculated
to injure private rights. On these grounds he felt it his duty to
bring it under the consideration of the House. He ( Mr. H.) had
been urged not to take such a step, but if the House u as resolved
to sanction the printing of the report, most assuredly he
would take the sense of the House upon it. He would not go
through the report in detail, but he would observe, that the
report in itself was nothing, but as it formed the basis upon
which to found some enactment. He contended that
the whole body of licensed victuallers would be ruined if that
report was acted upon—they should enter into an engagement
not to sell any thing but spirits, and the spirit shops of the
metropolis must remain open to public view like the butchers'
and bakers' shops, and those who sell more wholesome com-
modities. They could not sell more than a quart or a pint
of spirits at a time . _

Mr. BUCKINGHAM begged to assure the Hon. Member
that the report did not contain either of the provisions to
which he alluded.

Mr. II AWE S resumed. He was stating that all persons
who sold spirits were to confine themselves to the selling of
spirits, and this was still part of the report.' Another recom-
mendation was that for the future no spirit should be imported
into this country—( A laugh)—that there should be an
end to all importation of spirit.—( Hear, and a laugh.)
What would become of our West India colonies with their
rum ?—( Hear, and laughter.) Another recommendation was,
that no spirit should be distilled—( Loud laughter)—that beer
should be brewed at a certain strength and quality, and the
price was to be lowered.—( Continued laughter.) But this was
not all—there was to be a reduction of the duty upon tea axd
coffee—( Hear, hear)--and a repeal of all the taxes upon know-
ledge ; in fact, many of the provisions of the report would
form a most valuable accompaniment to the Poor Laws'
Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He would draw the attention of the
House, more particularly to the report, but he did not think it
necessary.—( Hear, hear.) It recommended that in large
towns the workmen should be paid their wages on
market days, which might occur two or three times in the
week. Another provision was, that there was to be no
meeting of any sort or kind of any Friendly Society, Club,
or permanent association for mutual benefit or relief, held in
any public-house or place where intoxicating drink was
sold.—( Hear, and laughter.) He could quote some very
racy passages---( Loud cries of " Read," and laughter),—but he
did not wish to cast unnecessary ridicule upon this report.
The object of the Committee he believed to be most benevolent,
and if a practical report had been presented, he would have
abstained from opposing it ; but when he considered the ruin
this report, if adopted, would inflict unon a number
of individuals, and the utter disregard which it manifested, of
all financial arrangements, he felt that it was utterly impos-
sible to allow it to be printed, without making some observa-
tions upon it, and he would conclude by stating that he would
take the sense of the House upon the motion that the report
be printed.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM said he could not but admire the
ingenuity of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down,
although he could pay no great tribute of respect to his can-
dour, because any thing more misrepresented than the Re-
port had been by the Honourable Gentleman, or any thing
more widely different than the Report from what had
been stated he had seldom ever met with.--( Cries of " Read,
read.") The lion. Gentleman had not availed himself of the
opportunity of reading the report, neither would he (Mr. B. )
trouble the House with it. The Hon. Gentleman had
been a Member of the Committee, and had attended it
about three times. Every time he attended, his object seemed
to be to brow-beat, to confound and to puzzle the witnesses,
in order to show, if possible, that no legislative measure could
be adopted.—( Hear, hear.) The Committee was moved for,
in the first instance to ascertain the causes of drunken-
ness with a view to ascertain if any remedy could be devised
to prevent this great national evil. There had been a recog-
nition therefore of the principle of the measure by the House
when the Committee was appointed ; and although the Com-
mittee was appointed in opposition to the Noble Chancellor
of the Exchequer, yet it was appointed by a great
majority of the House assembled on that occasion, and
certainly nothing could be urged against what had been done
in the Committee on the ground of want of unanimity, because
the only opposing member of the Committee on any occa-
sion was the Honourable Member who had just spoken.
When the Committee came to consider upon the propriety of
making the report the Hon. Gentleman was present, and he
opposed the making of the report. He was heard fully, but he
failed to convince the Committee of the absurdity of making such
report. He then left the Committee in dudgeon, and said he
would not trouble them more. He had therefore afforded no
assistance in making the report, and now that the other Mem-
bers of the Committee, had given it all the assistance they could,
he came down to the House, and offered all the opposition
possible to it, founded on the purest misrepresentations. He
(Mr. B.) would not enter into an analysis of the Report, be-
cause he did not consider that the present question ought to
depend on the advocacy of the Report at present on either
side—it certainly ought to be, and all he wished was, that
it should-be allowed to be printed, and then the House would
be able'-to judge of it. If the Hon. Gentleman thought the
opinion of the Committee was concentrated in himself, he must
have considerable confidence, but he would recollect that
every time the opinion of the Committee was taken he was
left in a single minority. He (Mr. Buckingham) would take
leave to say, that the Committee were not desirous, as had
been represented, that the importation of foreign spirits
should be prohibited. The Report had been made up chiefly
of the evidence of the witnesses, although all the details had
not been given. This was the course that had been taken by the
hand-loom weavers' committee, of which he (Mr. B.) had been
a Member, and therefore there was nothing of novelty in the
Report in that respect. A great many of the members of
the Committee had gone into the country, but he would
pledge his reputation that the opinions expressed in
the report were not so much the opinions of the Members of
the Committee as those of the witnesses. He would give
a short analysis of the witnesses who had been examined.
They had examined several Magistrates, Sheriffs, Naval and
Atilitary phy,,ieianc and gurgeong, a Spirit-dealer of Holborn,
and a Commissioner of the Poor Laws, who stated that
the poverty which prevailed among the lower classes was
mainly attributable to the habit of spirit-drinking. Seeing
that men of the highest eminence, and among them the Bishop
of London, had recommended some legislative enactment for
the cure of this evil, he hoped the House would not assent to
a proposition which was without precedent in that House, that
a Report of a Committee appointed by the House should not
be printed. He trusted that the services of the Committee
would not be lost merely to please the caprice, fancy, or
sinister motives of any individual.
Mr. H AWE S—Does the Hon. Member mean to apply the
terms " sinister motives" to me ?
Mr. BUCKlNGHAM—Undoubtedly I applied my argu-
ments to the Hon. Member, but I am not aware that he has
used any sinister influence.
Mr. O'DW YE R moved that a particular point of the Re-
port be read by the Clerk.
The Clerk then read the passages desired, which were re-
ceived with much laughter. The Report ecommended that
venders of medicine alone should be liceiOd to distil ardent
spirits, and that foreign spirits should be admitted only for
medicinal purposes. The Report also referred to the system
pursued on board of many ships belonging to the United"
States of America, as instances in which great good resulted
from the ordinary use of spirits not being permitted.
Mr. BAINES complained of the ridicule which had been
cast on the Report. If the labours of Committees were to
be so treated the Members would-not be found willing to
give their services for such a return. It was extremely
wrong to speak of the recommendations which had been re-
ceived with ridicule as coming from the Committee. They
came from witnesses. He warmly advocated the printing of
the Report.
Mr, O'CONNELL said that, though the Hon. Member
warmly advocated the printing of the report, he trusted the
House would coolly reject it. Indeed it was impossible that
any other determination should be come to. It was a mass
of the most extraordinary absurdities ; and but from the
well-known character of the Hon. Gentlemen composing
the Committee, he should almost have concluded that when
they consented to such a report they were fuddled.—
(Laughter.) Take one proposition. The importation of
foreign spirits was to be totally prevented.---(Laughter.)
And then another. Chemists and druggists alone were
to be allowed to practice distillation.—(A laugh.) Really
these things were so notoriously absurd that the House could
not continue giving. them egeulatioh, If the/ were to, tolerate

such absolute trash and nonsense they would have some small-
faced quack from every village in the country breaking down
their table with outrageous nonsense. But it was said the opi-
nions were those of the witnesses and not of the Committee.
The Committee was appointed to report its own opinions.—
(Hear, hear.) And as to the opinions being those of the wit-
nesses, the Members of the Committee would have done well
when they heard such opinions pronounced to have sent for the
friends of those who uttered them, and suggested that at this
period of the session it would be well to watch over and guard
the incipient legislators. Seriously he called upon the House
not to sanction the printing of such a mass of nonsense.
Colonel WILL I A 111 S, as a Member of the Committee
making the report, complained strongly of the way in which
it had been received. Ridicule might suit the purposes of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, but it would not
divert him from his purpose. If the House refused to print
the report it would not refuse to receive a notice of motion
f. om him. The Hon. Member then read a motion in sub-
stance stating that if it could be proved that converting grain
into ardent spirits increased the price of bread, and produced
great national immorality, vice, distress, and misery, it was
the bounden duty of the Legislature to suppress such conver-
sion of grain. He was satisfied that drunkenness must be put
down, or that it would put the country down.
Mr. M. PHILIPS said that his name appeared as one of
the Committee ; but after what had occurred he felt it neces-
sary to say that nothing short of the Coercion Bill should
have induced him to have affixed his name to the Report.
He suggested that the evidence, without the report, should
be printed.
Mr. HO WARD said he had been a Member of the Com-
mittee, but had only been able to attend a meeting four times.
When he did attend the evidence did not justify the report,
and therefore he begged not to be considered as participating
in that document.

Lord SAND 0 N said that the question for the House to
consider was, whether it would on this account take the un-
precedented course of refusing to print a report of one of its
Committees.—( Hear, hear.) He had been a Member of that
Committee, but so much occupied that he was unable to take a
part in its labours. He had, however, read the report, and
although there were many propositions from which he certainly
dissented as wholly impracticable, still the report contained
much that would be found highly useful. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin had thrown much ridicule upon
the report. That Hon. and Learned. Member had a ready
supply of eloquence and sarcasm ; but the House would not
fail to recollect that the Hon. and Learned Member was
equally ready at confounding and so mixing up matters that it
was next to impossible to come at the truth without further in-
quiry. Thus the Hon. and Learned Member had attributed
opinions to the Committee which the report expressly stated
were those of witnesses. He implored the House not to de-
part from its regular course of usage, and still less to do so
for the purpose of throwing insult upon one of its Committees.
By printing the report, the House was in no way pledged to
its contents. _

Mr. BROTHERTON complained of the conduct of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin; and warmly supported
many of the views contained in the report.
Lord J. RUSSELL concurred in the view taken by the
Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool. At the same time he
must say that some of the recommendations put forth in the
report were most extraordinary. One proposition was, that
Government should introduce a general and comprehensive
measure for the prevention of all manner of drunkenness.
Mr. SINCL AIR approved of printing the report, if only
to show how easy it was to dilate on an evil, but how difficult
to cure it. .

Mr. RUTHVEN wished the report to be printed.
Colonel WILLIAMS rose to explain. He wished to ex-
plain what fell from the Noble Paymaster of the Forces.—
( Order and laughter.)
Mr. L E FRO Y said his name was on the Committee, but
he deprecated being considered as implicated in the report.
The gallery was then cleared for a division.
For the printing of the report 63
Against it 31
Majority —32
TITHES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. LITTLETON, in moving the third reading of the
Tithes (Ireland) Bill, said, in reference to the apprehension
expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Cambridge, to the effect that there would be
left no fund for the defraying the expenses of divine worship
and the repairing and building of churches in Ireland, inas-
much as the grant from the Consolidated Fund was declared
under the Bill chargeable on the Perpetuity Fund created by
the Bill of last year, that he had caused an abstract of the in-
come and expenditure of that fund to be drawn up, and that
from such abstract it would appear there would be a surplus
over expenditure amply sufficient to meet not only the annual
interest, but by degrees the principal, of the fund. The in-
come which would annually pass through the hands of the
Commissioners would amount to 91,033/., while the charges
upon it, including the expenses of divine worship and the
building and repairing of churches, would net 66,000/. There
would thus be a clear sum of 25,0001. applicable to optional
purposes, and that sum, he thought, he was in every sense jus-
tified in proposing should be applied to the redemption of the
grant from the Consolidated Fund.—( Hear. )
On the question that the Bill be read a third time being put
from the Chair,

Mr. LEFROY rose to move that the Bill be read a third
time that day three months. The Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber recapitulated at great length the objections he had pre-
viously urged to the details of the measure when in Committee,
and contended that, as the Bill now before the House was in
every essential point different from that to the second reading
of which he had given his assent, he was fully justified, not-
withstanding that circumstance, in moving its postponement
for three months. The Bill which the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the ex- Secretary for the Colonies introduced went upon
the principle that the Church property should be realized,
and invested in land for the benefit of the Establishment.
( Hear.) The principle, as well as several other very essential
ones, were entirely omitted from the Bill as it now stood.
The former Bill was calculated to give peace, to Ireland and
security to the Church ; the present would do neither the one
or the other. It would not satisfy the people—it could not
satisfy the Church. The Hon. Member concluded by moving
that the Bill be read a third time this day three months.
Mr. J. YOUNG seconded the amendment.

Lord ACHESON could assure the House that if the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin had not moved the amend-
ment which had been carried, and which had made such an
important alteration in the character of the Bill, his Hon.
Friend the Member for Leitrim would have made the same
motion.--( Hear.) He supported the Bill in its present form.
Mr. HAL COMB addressed the House, and the question
being again put,
Mr. SHAW rose, and contended that the Bill in its present
state was at variance with all the professions that Ministers
had given on the subject. But this did not at all surprise him ;
it was only in accordance with the general policy of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite, and the Government with which
he acted, as regarded the interests of the Established Church
in Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman was willing to
sacrifice the interests of the Protestant Church to conciliate
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. The inevitable
consequence of the present Bill, which. was nothing but the
Bill of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, would be
the ruin of the Irish Church Establishment, by depriving it of
those funds by which it was supported, and to which its right
was as indisputable as any legal claim to property could be.
He should certainly oppose the third reading of the Bill.
Mr. LITT', ETON said that he was not surprised at the
speech which had just been delivered by the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman. He was prepared for such attacks from
that quarter, because he had been through life the steady and
uncompromising opponent of those exclusive principles which
gave to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman his sole pre-emi-
nence, and the failure of which rendered him now so desperate.
The Irish Government would pursue the course they thought
best for the interests of the country, and the present Bill was
a measure from which they looked for the best advantages to
those interests.

Mr. O'CONNELL said that he was delighted with the
speech of the Honourable and Learned Member for the
University of Dublin (Mr. Shaw), because he hailed it as the
expiring effort of that faction that had so long domineered
over Ireland. He looked upon this Bill as the first step that
had been taken for six hundred years by any Government to
conciliate the affections of the Irish people. He would pro-
mise that if the present Bill passed into a law, not a _drop of
blood would be shed in Ireland for twelve months. He could
not promise longer.—( A laugh.) He hoped that the pros-
pects which this Bill held out to Ireland would not be de-
feated elsewhere.—( Hear, hear.) Where, he should like to
know, were the statesmen to be found who would stand in the
way of this Bill ?—( Hear.) Who were they who would
prefer twelve months more of insurrection and blood in Ire-
land ? He hoped the Government would have the manliness
to resist any opposition that might be offered to the further
progress of so healing a measure. It had been said that this
Bill was his Bill; but it was not his Bill; it was the Bill of
the House of Commons, and he was sure that House and the
British nation would stand by the Government in seeing that
it was not defeated by any efforts of disappointed ambition and
expiring bigotry.
After a few words from Colonel DAVIES in explanation,
The Bill was read a third time without a division.
Mr. LITTLETON proposed an additional clause, which
was agreed to.
Mr. O'RE ILL Y proposed a clause to the effect that tenants
paying a rack rent should not be subject to the provisions of
this Bill.
Mr. LITTLETON opposed the clause. He contended
that the value of tithe property was increased in place of being
diminished by this Bill.
After a few words from Mr. JONES the amendment was
rejected without a division.
Several verbal amendments were agreed to in some of the
remaining clauses.
The Bill then passed.
SUPPLY.—CASE OF MR. COHEN.
Lord A LTH ORP, in moving that the report of the Com-
mittee of Supply be brought up, stated, in answer to a ques-
tion put to him last night, and which he was then under the
necessity of declaring his inability to reply to, that the ex-
penses of the prosecution of Mr. Cohen the proprietor of the
Brighton Guardian, had been defrayed by Government.
Mr. WA RBURTON hoped this case would not be made a
precedent of, because it might be greatly abused, and might
lead to the oppression of individuals. He was satisfied that
the Noble Lord would not, on principle, defend such a case.
Mr. SHEIL wished to know whether the expenses of the
prosecution were paid out of the secret service money, or
whether they were included in the estimates?
Mr. SPRING RICE, as we understood him, said the ex-
penses of the prosecution were not paid out of the secret ser-
vice money.
• 3,ir. O'DWYER said that libels against public functionaries

ought not to be prosecuted on slight grounds ; but above 1;J,
Government ought not to sinction such prosecutions ill
cases of other parties where they were not prepared to take,
responsibility.
On the grant for the Consular Establishment being reeuti„,
Mr. MARK PHILIPS remarked upon the neglect of tw'
ditt
British manufacturing and commercial interests by our: in j
'
ferent ambassadors, who were not, he feared, so well acquitti.:.
with those interests as they ought to be. He trusted that
eft°.
all future appointments in the diplomatic department, ink
would be selected who knew something of the cornmerC°
the country. oh. •
The remaining resolutions were agreed to without 01
servation of public interest being made.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND) BILL. ;
On the motion of Mr. LITTLETON, the Church VW
poralities (Ireland) Bill was read a third time.
On the motion of Mr. O'CONNELL, a clause facilitatieg j
appeals from the decision of vestries was added to the Bill' •
The Bill then passed.
The House then resolved itself into Committee on the
Spirit Duties Bill. 'ef
On the first clause (fixing the alteration for the 10th
October) being proposed,
Mr. O'CONNELL suggested that the reduction she°
commence on the Ist of September.
Mr. O'CALLAGHAN recommended the Noble Lei,
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to adopt the suggestion
as it would much tend to the convenience of the distillers. de
Lord ALTHORP said, that if it was the wish of the A,
co l"
he would adopt the suggestion, and alter the clause ac
ingly.
After a few words from Mr. WALKER, Mr. M. V r 15`' ere
and Mr. GOULaURN, the words " first day of Septemberll
substituted for the words " tenth day of October." die
The several clauses of the Bill having been agreed too, .o. •
House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be receiret"
morrow (this day).
STARCH DUTIES BILL.
ti
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the Starch Dees • ,
Bill went through a Committee.

EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL.
On the motion of Mr. F. BARING, the Exchequer Pi
Bill was read a third time and passed.
ASSESSED TAXES COMPOSITION BILL.
The report of the Committee on the Assessed Taxes Cote'
position Bill was brought up, and agreed to.—Bill to be r.
a third time to-morrow (this day).
COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND) BILL'
3 The report of the Committee on this Bill was brougbt
and agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read
time on Thursday next.
COUNTY BRIDGES (IRELAND) BILL. •
ef
Mr. LITTLETON moved the third reading of the —0
Bridges' (Ireland) Bill. CSI
Mr. JONES opposed the motion, and was underato,
move the third reading on that day three months.
The House divided, when the numbers were— •
For the third reading 45
Against it 7
Majority ;.-38
After some further conversation the Bill was passed.
The Foreign Enlistment Repeal Bill was read a third t>'
and passed.
The Pension Civil Offices Bill was read a third tittles°,
passed.
The South Australian Colonization Bill was retid a-thit.!
time and passed.
Several other Bills were advanced a stage. mitf.
Mr. LE FRO Y moved for a return of the income gnu -de
goings of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in Ireland U
the Church Temporalities Act.—Ordered.
•
The House adjourned at One o'clock.
SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE.
L., b. •
VESSELS ENTERED INWARDS AT THE CUSTOM-HOUSE 4.- 'pa'
Waterloo, Stranack, from Dunkirk ; Dart, Stranack, Ost.ih:
and Moldon; Heroine, Benson, Figueira ; Elizabeth, Coils' '
GrairJ,i
Archangel ; Julie, Preager, Calais ; Union, Pietre, Aer,
lines ; Maria, Swoner, Odensee ; Jonge Java, Vander Inito,
Worcum ; Petite Julie, Dubbins, Gravelines ; SPen.re,
Manzuch, Trieste ; Ann Elizabeth, Tiltman, Boulegne
derick, Moller, Kiel ; Felicity, Tarndell, Archangel.
ENTERED OUTWARDS FOR LOADING, AUG.
Thomas and Ann, Stephenson, for Bruges and -
Planet, Barclay. Jamaica ; Antamus, Sergent, Jamaica ; L‘',"4;
line, Campbell, Jamaica ; Carl Frederick, Prins, lisrril7o-01'
London, Rumbael, Hamburg ; Dart, Stranack, Ostend;
merce, Fournier, Calais ; Mary, Camsell, Konigsberg;
Jane Stewart, M'Key, Cadiz.

CLEARED OUTWARDS WITH CARGOES, Ant,. S. •15,
Clarendon, Whitring, for Madeira ; St. Antonio AT11124,
Garzuley, Alicant and Barcelona; Zwaan, Cassanovers,- op
werp ; Gozina, De Boir, Amsterdam ; Tourist, Bridge, 40-
terdam ; City of Hamburg, Whittingham, Hamburg ;
Pierce, Adams, St. Helena ; Attwood, Morfee, Ant!.
• Sarnia, Dale, Guernsey and Jersey.
CLEARED OUTWARDS IN BALLAST, Ave. 5. loci.
O,
Reliance, Martin, for Ondeese ; Crown, Terry, Que •
O
New Brunswick, Green, St. John's ; Diana, Kroyer, B
Mauritius, Madden, Baltic ; Meven and Sophia, Cla___..tls-$4l,
Baltic ; Concordia, Bromholdt, Baltic ; Caroline and
Hoffman, Baltic; Resolution, Cork, Norway; ilti
Helena, "ad%
Embden ; Hoffnung, De Boer, Embden ;
Drost, Gut 10117,,•
Woreum ; Mary Ann, Fotheringham, Riga; Joseph Anders.—
Thomson, Quebec.