The Sun.
London, England, 1834-02-22 00:00:00

very true, and the converse of this position woo Id he
equally good, for if the House relieved the latter interest,
it would have the effect of benefitting the former.—
(Hear, hear.) And this being granted, he thought it
would he better to extend the eirect relief to that class
which was more in want of it.—(Hear.) The Noble
Lord had talked last night about a commutation of tithes;
to-night, however, when the question was the agricul-
tural interest of England, that Noble Lord said nothing
about commutation of tithes. His Lordship probably
thought it would be too great a relief to bestow upon the
agriculturists. The Noble Lord had, with great em-
phasis, thrown out a hint that he proposed some altera-
tion in the poor rates; it remained to he seen what alte-
ration was proposed, but it was a pity that the Noble
Lord had not at once given the House at least some idea
of his plan, for if it had been at all eligible, it might have
had the effect of quieting the agricultural Members, who
were otherwise likely to give his Lordship some trouble.
Even if the proposition were only to relieve the agricul-
turists from part of the poor rates, by levying them on some
other property, or otherwise, this would be a great relief.
There was this difference between the relative positions of
the manufacturer and the landholder; the former, if he
failed in business, or chose to drop it, could set about
something else, or at the worst come upon the landholder,
while the latter, whether fortune shone upon him or no,
was obliged to keep on, and had no other interest on
which in distress he could fall back, like the other classes.
The Noble Lord seemed strongly averse from helping the
landholders. If he gave them a particle of relief, he con-
trived that they should not be the better for it for twenty
years or so. What they wanted, however, was immediate
relief ; and if they were compelled to wait much longer
for it, they would probably be past cure. The misfortune
of the landholders was, that they were not in a position
to assemble in hebthimadal crowds, and, walking in pro-
cession two and two, besiege the doors of the Noble Lord,
and clamour him into giving them relief. Not being able
to assemble in clamorous crowds, they had none of the
advantages o'f. great towns for procuring a remission of
taxes. The fact was, that the number and clamours of
the metropolitan and other representatives for cities and
towus, had altogether overwhelmed the humble petition
and remonstrances of the agriculturists. The Noble
Lord supposed that the assessed taxes were the only unlit).
pular ones, because the complaints of the aericulturists
had been silenced and unheard amidst the boisterous cla-
mours of the town and city representatives. As it was,
the country had bread and the other produce of land at a
much cheaper rate than at any period within the last 150
years. At present, the price of corn was only 4Ss.
quarter; whereas, for a whole century before 1793, it
had been 50s. Though the price of meat and wool had
increased, and the farmers had thus been benefited, as
farmers, yet such had been the course of adverse circum-
stances for the last three years that the 1= as of the farmers
as flock farmers had more than counterbalanced their
gains as farmers. The Hon. Member considered that a
reduction in the malt tax would be eminently beneficial to
all classes, as well as to the revenue itself : if it took all
say ss. a quarter, the deficiency would be amply made up
by the increase of consumption.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Indeed, a good half of this duty might be judiciously
made, if Government would only consider some of its late
reductions, which it wag generally admitted had been very
hastily made.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Several of these were
of no service to the public: the reduction of half the
malt duty would be universally and eminently beneficial.
There was another subject on which a Committee had la 4
session been appointed—a subject of general importance,
on which the Grand Jury in every county had made a
strong remonstrance : he alluded to the beer shops.—
(Hear, hear.) These shops were universally considered
as mere nurseries of crime—the cause of that dreadful
increase of demoralization which had become matter of
such notoriety. All the country magistrates, private
country gentlemen, farmers, and even the more respect.
able labourers, united in the strongest protest against the
beer shops.—(Hear, hear.) Last year the Noble Loud
bad talked of bringing in a Bill on the eubject; but he had
mentioned this et a time when all the :11er-fibers were gone
out of town, and nothing could he done. Now, when the
House was re-as•embled, and greater anxiety than ever
prevailed on the subject, his Lordship said nothing about
the matter. In short, the Noble Lord on this point, as
on every other, clearly showed that he was determ'ned to
do nothing for the agricultural interest.

Mr. WIIBRAHAM thought Parliamentary taxes had
very little to do with agricultural distress. He recollected
that, several years ago, when many petitions and motions
had been brought forward on the subject of agricultural
distress, the Duke of Wellington, then in office, laid on the
table of the other House a very ably drawn up statement
on this subject, which clearly demonstrated that the dis-
tress was by no means owing to taxation. The few taxes
which had borne on the agriculturists, such as that on
carts, Sisc., had recently been taken off, and that interest
had now no taxes to complain of. The Hon. Member
made a few other observations, which were, however,
totally inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. COBBETT wholly differed with the Noble Lord
in the principles he had laid down on this subject ; and he
would talk to him about it directly.—(A laugh.) He would,
however, in the first place, address himself to what an
Hon. Baronet had asserted, that agricultural distress was
in no way attributable to Parliamentary taxation, but
wholly to tithes and poor.rates. Indeed ! He would just
ask the Hon. Baronet at what time it was that tithes
were first instituted ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it five years
ago, or ten years ago, or was it not rather earlier.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) The Hon. Baronet must remember
the good times for agriculturists ; he must remember the
cattle shows at Hulkham, and the other specimens of the
arrogance of agricultural aristocracy. Toese were good
times for the agriculturists, yet tithes existed even then.
And this simple fact would suffice to show that agricul-
tural prospsi ity or adversity had nothing to do with t then.
__(Hear, hear, hear.) This would do as an answer for
the Hon. Baronet : the error of the Noble Lord was of much
greater consequence, because he gave it as his reason why
he would not give the agricultural interest the relief they
wanted— the reduction of their taxes. The Noble Lord was
right in saying that all taxes fell indirectly or directly upon
all classes ; if they instituted a land tax it would fall upon
the labourers—(Hear, hear)—hut lie (Mr. C.) would sav,
that if there were any taxes which were more particularly
injurious to one class than another, they were those which
bad deterred the farmer from keeping labourers as servants,
and providing them with beer. The taxes on agricultural
servants and the Beer Bill had produced all those dissolute
manners which had never been known among agricultural
labourers before. The Noble Lord said something abaut
a proposed alteration in the pour-rates; he must, of
course, mean to lessen the amount of that relief. Before
the Noble Lord talked of poor-rates being the burden upon
landholders, he should have put the House on an inquiry as
to how those rates had been caused. Had they been in-
flicted on the people by an act of Providence ? No. Had
the poor themselves instituted them ? No. Let the
Noble Lord look over the Treasury records, and he would
there find that the amount of pour-rates bad gone on in
exact coincidence with the progressive increase of taxation
—(Hear, hear)—and uuless the Noble Lord intended to
take off the taxes—which he (Mr. Cobbett) by the bye
strongly advised him to do—(A laugh)—itw was entirely
out of his power to alleviate the case of the farmer by
had
distress among the
been another cause of constant misery and
be studiously overlooked.
farmers, which he also found to
Ithat had
it was not the poor rates, he repeated, ruinedthing he could do with regard to poor-rates. There
the farmers. He remembered the time when who,t
fetched 401. or 501. a load, yet the poor rates were higher
then than now. There had never been a year of greater
agricultural prosperity than the year 1812 (we believe
he said), yet the poor rates were higher then than now.
_(Cries of "No, no.") He said yes, yes—(A laugh)__
and he should like to hear any one disprove hitn.—(An
Hon. Member made a short observation, which we did
not hear.) Pshaw, continued Mr.Cobbett—(A laugh)__
no such thing. He was giving facts, which could be
proved from documents. He repeated, that in the year
11i:1,12er:it:awry agriculturistsi.eturn returns,
.ere werehigh higher thena thanstate of the hiehe t
prosperity, yet pour rates, as he could prove by the Par
hear.) The paytnent in gold brought down the price of
wheat, and in this the great cause of the distress was to
be found. The Noble Lord said the poor rates bad been
the cause of the ruin of the country. These poor rates
had now been 250 years in operation, and yet it was only
lately that they were discovered to have produced this
ruin.—( Hear, hear.) Much had been said about
checking the poor rates, but by what meins—how were
they to be checked ? Was it by a law to prevent the
relief being extended ? Was it by letting them have less wages
or allowance than now ? How much less ? He would appeal
to the Member for South Wiltshire, to know in what degree
the allowance could be lessened. That Hon. Member knew
that in his neighbourhood a gallon loaf and threepence per
week was the allowance, and how could this be lessened ?
(Cheers.) The gallon loaf was about a pound of bread per day.
Could they reduce this allowance? The allowance made by the
Magistrates of Hampshire to the poor labourers was Os. 6d. per
week all the year round; and if they objected to this there was
no allowance for them. In Dorsetshire they were allowed a
penny a week more. Where was the room for check in this
allowance ? Could the Noble Lord reduce it lower ? If such a
measure were attempted the consequences which he (Mr.
Cobbett) predicted the other night would ensue, and the.,
ought to ensue. flow superior was the condition of the soldier
who dint no work, who only carried a bayonet, and yet received