The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-16 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING. APRIL 16, 1833.

EAST INDIA HOUSE, APRIL 15.

(Continued from our Paper of yesterday.)
Sir JOHN MALCOLM, in continuation, said, be
would now read an extract from a speech that had been
made within those walls in the year 1813, when proposi-
tions had been made by the Government which were after-
wards considerably modified, and when the Court of Pro.
prietors made a stand against the Court of Directors which
did tbetn immortal honour.—(Cheers.)
A PROPRIETOR inquired who the speaker was.
Sir J. MALcoLM observed, that it was Mr. Robert
Grant.—(Hear, hear.) That gentleman had stated, that
he did not mean to say that Government would entertain a
deliberate and systematic design to annihilate the Coin.
pany ; but it was in the nature of things for foes to be in-
croaching, and if the plan proposed was to be put in force,
it was pet f,ctly easy to see what would lie its termination.
Left in the possession of all their political functions, but
stript of the means which they possessed for th.--
exercise of these very functions, they would at
length be compelled to resign every thing without a
struggle, and have the inexpressible comfort of heirs
told it was a voluntary surrender. They would he check
mated with all their pieces on the Board.—(Cheers.)
Such were the words of Mr. Robert Grant. He would

now come to that part of the correspondence, in which the
President of the LHha Board proposed an alteration wish

. .
respect to the Court of Proprietors. He could not un-
derstand, under the proposed plan, what the duties of the
Court of Proprietors were to consist of, beyond the mete
power of electing the Court of Directors. No doubt that
that power was a very serious and important one, and was
linked in a Treat degree with the good Government of

ndia; but was that, he would ask, ail that was to b, left

them of their present rights ? He was sari...fled the Court of
Directors in the managem,nt of the political of India
_ .

had not only the appr.:bation of the Court of Proprietors,
but of the pubic at large. He believed they had done all
they could to defend the interest of the Prop! ietors, and
had been consistently true from their first ne2ociatioo with
the Duke of W• Ilington, and that their great and principal

object had always been, as it was at that period, to yield
to any proposition that would promote the interests and
welfare of the Indian empire. The worthy Proprietor
then concluded I.y movinit the folio yin resolutions:—

" That having attentively considered the correspondence

which was laid before the Proprietors on the 25th March, this
Court must, in the first place, express their cordial approbation
of the conduct ofthe Court of Directors in maintaining with zeal
and ability the rights and interests of the East India Company.
"'That in reviewing the intimate connexion which has so
long subsisted between India and the Company, this Court de-
_

sires to record their conviction that the Company can have no
other object in undertaking the territorial government of that
country for a further term, than the advancement of the happi-
ness and prosperity of our native subjects ; and that if Parlia-
ment, in its wisdom, should declare that that great object would
be best promoted by the continuance of the government in the
hands of the Company, divested of their commercial character,
the Company would submit to that regulation, provided power
be preserved to enable the Company to have their rights ad-
justed on the principle of a fair and liberal compromise.
" That the Company, looking to the present state of the
finances of India, are of opinion that it is not reasonable that
the Company's assets, commercial and territorial, with all their
possessions and rights, should be assigned to the Crown, on
the exchange proposed by Ministers of an annuity of 103,6 per
cent, for 40 years, except on the following conditions :-
Ist. That the sum set apart for the guarantee fund be extended

to such an amount as upon reasonable calculation will be suffi-
cient, with the accumulation during the 40 years, to redeem the
annuity, and that, in the event of India failing to remit sufficient
funds, the sufficiency should be supplied out of the guarantee
fund, that b .ing to be made good by subsequent remittances
from India. 2d. That the Company exercising the same power as

they now possess shall continue to administer the government of
India for not less than twenty years, and that if deprived of
it, they should be allowed the option of demanding the
payment of the principal, or should be at liberty to resume
their right of trading, which it is proposed by Ministers should
now be in abeyance. 3d. That all measures involving direct
or continued expenditure should originate with the Court
of Directors, but be subject to the controul of the Court of
Commissioners. 4th. That sufficient power should be retained
over the general assets to make suitable provision for out-
standing commercial obligations, and officers of the Company
who might be affected by the arrangement."
Sir THOMAS DALLAS seconded the resolution.
Si: CHARLES FORBES begged to enter his protest
against that part of the resolutions which went to load
the natives of India with an annuity to the proprietors of
India stock. All the discussions of that Court appeared
to him to have in view only the security of the pa}-
ment of their dividends.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The
Court had been told thata sum of about ten or twelve mil-
lions was to be appropriated to the payment of
the debt. Now he would only ask what were the
assets with which the loan was to be paid. Were
they commercial or were they territorial ?—(Hear,
hear.) If they were commercial why not apply them
to their right purposes, if territorial, why not apply them
to the discharge of the territorial debts of India?—(Hear,
hear.) He trusted that the proprietors would stand upon
their right as much as any person who was atta-ked by a
highway robber. Was there one among them, he would
ask, who would submit to be borne to the earth, and would
cry out they could not help themselves?—(Cheers.) He
begged the proprietors to push onwards, determined to
assert their rights, and he had no doubt they would suc-
ceed, at least he trusted, they would not be parties
to their own dkrace.—(Continued cheers.) Let
them keep in view the welfare of the natives of India,
which the Government of the country appeared to have
thrown entirely aside. The proposed ten and a half per
cent. to be levied on the natives of India was making the
property a direct drag upon their necks for the 40 years.
He believed that the natives of India would not sutimit to
such injustice. He earnestly hoped that if it was thrust
upon them they would not submit to it. This might be
using strong language, but it was honest speaking
out, and what many gentlemen thought in that
Court, if they would only open their minds. He admitted
that the truth ought not always to be stated, but on a
question of such vital importance as the present it should
not be excluded. Every person present in the Court
ought to speak out boldly, declaring his determination to
be no party to such an arrangement as that which had
been proposed by Ministers. The Hon. Proprietor, who
had addressed the Court at such length, hid stated that
the question of the China trade he considered as cotn-
pletely done away with. If that was all the in-
formation he could give the Court, it would
have been much better for him to have said
nothing. His (Sir Charles Forbes's) opinion was, that
it was not gone, but he thought that Mini.ters, in taking
away the management of that trade from the Company
who had conducted it so ably, were doing that which
the nation would not go along with them in.—(Cheers.)
They might be supported by a few men from Glasgow,
Liverpool, and Hell—(Cheers)—but the great body of
the nation, he felt convinced, would not lend their aid.
his Majesty's Ministers, on this question, were acting pre-
cisely as they had done with regard to reform—they were
surfeiting the people. It was one thing to have given to
the merchants of the out-ports what they asked for--a
free competition in the China market—and another to
have brought forward SO sweeping a measure as the present.
In the article of tea, he believed it would be much better to
have continued the monopoly to the Company. They
supplied an excellent article, and at a cheaper rate than
private traders could afford to bring it into the mai ket for.
Their price was anything but a monopoly price, in the
odious acceptation of the term. The Ministry, however.
rushed to the furhest extreme, and did nut hesitate to put
in hazard neatly four millions of revenue, and a revenue
collect. el with the most extreme facility. Wh ,tever the
Government might be presumptuous enough to hint, every
gentleman in that Court had a right to speak our on this
point. Fur what would be the consequence? Most
probably a property-tax, and 101. or 201. per cent.
would be demanded from them out of their dividends.
The 1 inguage which the Government held was—Oh'.
all that the Court of Proprietors care about, is getting
their dividends ; all that the Court of Directors care
about, is their patronage. It was now time for them to
tell the Government, that some attention must be paid
of
manufactures this
country.
were pouredlte
to the state of India itself—that an emp're so immense,
ns a
idnto of
ought to be put on a footing with the other colonies
that w which,
countrywhilstato Englishhetp a
rate as to undersell ail home manufacture, England would
nut receive even the raw produce of India in return, and
the consequence was, that the country was drained of its
precious metal—a dr,in which, be it remembered, could
not last for ever. There was no less a capital employed
in the trade between I dia and China than five millions,
and if the tea trade were to be thrown open to morrow,
he should not be surprised to find that in three years the
Company would be requested again to undertake its ma-
management.—(Hear, bear.) He begged, however, to

he understood, that his observations were limited to the
trade to China—that the Company should trade to India
—that they should thus unite the anomalous character of
sovereigns and traders—was what he had always objected
to, and which he hoped would be given up, with consent
of all parties. Much as had been said about the success
which followed the opening of the trade with India, he
could only say, that he believed all who had engaged in
that trade had burnt their fingers. He had for one ; and
he had only heard of one person who had been successful.
He concluded by urging on all parties to use every exer-
don to resist the attempt to deprive the Company of a
trade which they carried on with so much advantage to
the people of this country. He quite differed from the
opinion of the Hon. and Gallant General, who considered
that trade as gone. When he referred to the opinions
which had been once entertained by Mr. Charles Grant,
by Mr. Robert Grant, and by Mr. Ellice, he found every
thing to hope from that circumstance; and, as to the
proposal to ino ct the burthen of 630,0001. per annum
on the natives of India, it was one which should never
Dave his sanction ; for he would never consent to become
either their pensioner or their plunderer, when the Com
pany had already sufficient property to answer all the de-
mands to which it was liable. He suggested the appoint-
ment of a Committee from the Court of Proprietors to
conduct the correspondence.
Mr. MOLONEY remarked on the strong expression of
opinion which had taken place on this question, and sail
it appeared to be the fashion to deprecate all the old modes
of conducting commerce, and to establish new ones in their
stead. Those, however, who sought to throw open the
China trade did not appear to take into consideration the
various peculiarities by which it was accompanied. The
character of the nation—the contempt which they exhi-
nited for commerce and commercial pursuits, made it
highly expedient that the old relations between them and
us should not be dissolved t II we were qui'e sure of estoh-
fishing new ones in their room. He could not agree with
the H solutions which he had that day heard, because they
implied an acquiescence wish the mutilated state to which
it was intended to reduce the Company, and which would
render it inadequate to the duties which it was still ex-
pected to perform.—(Hear.) He objected to them, be-
cause the existence of the China trade was mote sa`e in
th, hands of the East India Company, than in the hands
of the rehash nation at large—(Hear)—and because. that
trade afforded a safe and certain mode of remittance,
Ind the resources which it yielded were necessary to
secure tire dividends of the proprietors of the East India
Company. He thought those who had such large ex-
pectations of the opening which a trade to China would
off .rd would be much disappointed by the result ; for no
_teat increase of exports could take place from the introduc-
tion of British manufactures amongst a people so completely
wedded to ancient customs as the Chinese. He of jected
most strenuously to a plan which was to deprive the Com-
pany of its commercial property, and consequently prevent
it from trading in its corporate c rpacity. The wholesale
retrenchments which were spoken of, could not be carried
into execution with safety. From the character of the
Indian people, a large and magnificent expenditure was
necessary to impress them with a high notion of the
power of Cue Government. He had the fullest confidence
in the Court of arectors, and therefore he should oppose
lie suggestion for the appointment of a Committee. He
called on them to defend their commercial property, and
not to give it up to the Government by a suicidal act.
Their assets were quite sufficient to pay their dividends,
and to separate their commercial from their territorial
power, anti then to say that th-ir commercial assets must
be held liable to their territorial eneagements was little less
than an act of confiscation. He saw no objection to allow.
jug British traders to carry tea to any part of Europe, or
t e wilt Id, and exc pt the importation of tea into the
United Kingdom, he saw no obj,ction to abolish all re-
,arh•tionv on the China trade. At all events, he was
quite sure that a cominuta,ion of duties', like that which
took pace in 1784, most be yielded. To suppose that
the public was to pay 100 per cent. on an article of such
general consumptro, as that of tea was monstrous ; but he
was quite sure that by no trailers could the tea trade with
China be conducted with so much advantage to the British
public as by the East India Company. He would never
consent to be a parry to give up this trade, or to the com-
promise proposed by the Hon. anti Gallant General.
Dr GILCHRIST concurred in the observation respecting
the reduction of the duties on tea. The poor of England
ought to be consulted. Nothing could have a more de-
moralizing effect upon the poor of this country than by so
heavy a duty to prevent them from drinking an innocent
beverage, which had saved many of them from the ale-
house, the gin-shop, the gaol, arid even the gallows itself.
Tire propositions of Sir John Malcolm had been drawn up
with much judgment and also with much skill, and re-
quired mature deliberation before he would venture to
pronounce an opinion on them.
Mr. LOWNDES addressed the Court for some time,
amidst repeated symptoms of impatience, but evidently to
the great amusement of the company. The Honourable
Proprietor said he had predicted everything that had
happened for the last twenty years, and referred, amidst
reapeated roars of merriment, to the various pamphlets
and letters which he said he had promulgated on dif-
ferent subjects. We understood hits to object to the pro-
posed retrenchments, and to call for a removal or reduc-
tion of the duty on tea, without which the China trade
must be thrown open ; but he contended that it would
be much more to the advantage of the people that its
conduct should remain in the hands of the East India
Company.
Sir H. J. BRIDGES moved an adjournment till to-
morrow, that the resolutions should be printed for the
use of the proprietors.
Mr. RIGBY proposed an adjournment till Thursday, ashe
thought they required more time to consider the proposition.
Some discussion ensued, in which Mr. Randle Jackson,
Dr. Gilchrist, and others, took part ; when it was finally
agreed to adjourn till to•morrow (Tuesday), at twelve.
The Court then adjourned at five o'clock.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 15.

The SPEAKEIL took the Chair a few minutes after five
o'clock.

Mr. WARBURTON brought up the Report of the
Londonderry Election Committee. They reported, that
Sir Robert Ferguson was duly elected, and that the peti-
tion was both frivolous and vexatious. They further re-
ported, that treating and other corrupt practices had been
much practised, both previous to and during the late
election by a club calling themselves the Independent Club,
three-fou the of whom were publicans, and wholly opmsed
to the sitting Member. Further, that the conduct of G.
Hill, Esq., the Mayor of Londonderry, had been irregular
in not certifying upon oath that the ro 1 books delivered
in to the Committee were the proper ones, and without
any alteration, and further, that he had not indorsed upon
the back of the writ the names of the candidates, and the
numbers of the votes each hn l at the close of the poll.
Mr. O'CONNELL brought up the report of the Car-
rickfergus Election Committee. They reported that
Richard Dobbs, Esq. was not duly elected to serve for
that town, and that the election was altogether void.
That neither the petition, nor the opposition to it, was
frivolous or vexations. They further reported, that
the most gross and scandalous bribery, on both sides,
had been carried on during the election, that though Mr.
Dobbs was tot implicated in it, yet his return had been
brought about by bribery; that a great !lumber of the
freemen had been induced to give their votes solely
by bribery, and that great delay and expense had been in-
curred by the delay in producing books and documents
required by the Committee. The minutes of evidence
were ordered to be laid on the 'able.

Mr. O'CONNELL was further directed by the Com-
mittee to move that the writ for Carrickfergus be sus-
pended in the mean time. They were of opinion that a
cas- had been made out either to alter the constituency, or
altogether to disfranchise the city. He therefore moved
that the Speaker do not issue his writ fir one month.
The Marquis of CHANDos presented a petition pray-
ing for further time to enter into the recogniz,nees in the
petition against the election of Sir Samuel Whalley.—
lo or-
dered to be t4,n into consideration on the 22d of April.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS, in the absence of Lord AshleYt
said that it was not that Noble Lord's intention to move
the second reading of the Ten Hours' Factory Bill to mor-
row; he would therefore move that the order for the second
reading be discharged and fixed fir the 22d of April.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL gave notice that he
would move tor leave to bring in a Bill to enable his
Majesty, by the advice of his Privy Council, to direct
that the assizes may be held in any place in any county.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from
_the parish of