The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-08 00:00:00

NEW HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. HUME then rose to bring forward his motion re-
garding the necesalty of building anew House of Commons.
He said that a Gallant Officer, who was no longer a
Member of the House, had, during last session, brought
the subject under their consideration, and showed, what
must be apparent to all, that the present House did not
afford adequate accommodation for the Members. The
Gallant Officer then obtained the appointment of a Com-
mittee to take into consideration what improvement might
he made in the present House, in order to procure addi-
tional accommodation. That Committee had given in a
report, in which they stated that the space for the accom-
modation of Members could not be enlarged so as to
accommi date all the Members, nor the ventilation be
improved ; but that, by an outlay of 14,0001., fifteen
feet might he added to the length of the House, which
would accommodate from seventy to eighty Members ;
and that, in no way whatsoever, could any addition
be made to the breadth of the House. From the
evidence of Sir Geoffrey Wyatville, it appeared that
the House was thirty-three feet wide and forty-nine
feet long, and that it could not contain more than
one-halt of the Members. The body of the House, in-
cluding the eras-benches, could not, by any possibility,
contain more than 340 Members ; but, from Sir Geoffrey
Wyatville's evidence, it appeared that, allowing two feet
for each Member, only 294 could sit comfortably in the
House. In no public assembly in the world was the
accommodation so bad. The old Members were long
aware of it, but it now must be apparent to every new
Member of the House, from his own experience, that it was
not calcalated to contain near the whole of them. On
the occasion of the late division on the Irish Disturbance
Bill, when every seat was occupied, there were only 366
in the body of the House, and about 100 in the gallery,
but then they were wedged in like herrings in a barrel.—
(A laugh.) It appeared to him quite preposterous that the
business of the country should be carried on with such
miserable accommodation. It was sufficiently trying for
the constitution of most men to sit for ten or twelve,—
or, as it sometimes happened—for fifteen hours in the
House, even if they had the very best accommodation ;
instead of which the House was in such a state, that he
had known several gentlemen who fell a sacrifice to it.
The want of ventilation was peculiarly felt. He be-
lieved that the ablest men in England had been employed
to ventilate that House, but without being able to sue-
ceed in it. In short, the Committee, who had been
appointed to take the matter into consideration, were una-
nimously of opinion (with the single exception of the
Chairman) that the present House of Commons did n .t
afford adequate accommodation for the Members ; and it
he were to put it to the vote at that moment, whether or
nut it did afford proper accommodation, he vas sure there
would not be one dissentient vuice.—(Cries of " No, no,"
and cheers.) He would therefore move, " That the Re-
port of the Select Committee of last session be referred to
a Committee, to consider further the expediency of bui!d-
ing a new House, and the expense that would be incurred
thereby ; and to report the evidence, and their opinion on
the same." One of the inconveniences attending the
present House was the time lost in taking divisions.
Twenty minutes were lost in emptying the House, when
the one party went into the lobby ; and even then some
gentle force had to be used to get them out. That was
an inconvenience which could not be remedied, as no alte-
ration could be made which would improve the entrance,
Now, to be sure that, by the new alterations, the minority,
in which number he unfortunately generally was, had
to go out, that inconvenience might not be so generally
felt ; but there was another serious inconvenience, that
those of the minority who went out for a division on a
crowded night, might probably get no seat on their return.
He knew, that in much private business, many
lion. Members would not vote in the minority, for
fear of losing their seats. This was of some consequence,
for it might happen that a question would be decided
contrary to the real opinion of the House, merely because
Hon. Members did not choose to risk the loss of their
seats; and Members might be counted as in favour of a
question who were really opposed to it. The best way to
remove this inconvenience, which he considered of consi-
derable importance, was very simple, and it would, be-
sides, procure hem better accommodation otherwise. It
was to build a new House of Commons Immediately ad-
joining the present House. From the report of the archi-
tect, he found that there were two ways of accomplishing
that object, neither of which would cost above 10,0001.
more than the sum which would be required to make, the
alterations formerly proposed on the present House. The
new building would only cost 20,0001. in building. the
first proposal was, that the new building should be
erected between the present House and the river,
where there was a sufficient space for that purpose ;
the second plan proposed was, that it should be
erected in Cotton-gardens, on the site of the
house now belonging to Mr. Lee. There were objections
to placing it in Cotton-gardens, on account of its being
surrounded by the House of Lords, and the offices con-
nected with it ; but there could be no doubt of the pro-
priety of building it between the present House and the
river. The present House could then, either in whole,

or in part, be converted into a lobby for the new House,
which was the very best use to which it could be turned.
He thought this plan far preferable to any plan which
could be proposed for the improvement of the present
House ; as, after spending much money on it, it would be
found, after all, very defective for the accommodation of
the Members, and of the public. Where so much public
business was carried on, the very best accommodation
should he afforded ; and as for the expense, it was, after all,
a mere bagatelle—(Hear, and a laugh)—a mere trifle in
the annual expenditure of the country. At all events, be
did not consider that it was a question of money. it was
a question of whether or not those who attended there
for the public service ought to be properly accommodated.
—(Hear.) He admitted that there were many recollec-
tions connected with the present Howe which endeared it
to the old Members, and he entered into that feeling as
much as any man ; hut he thought that such feelings
should give way to utility, and it was on the ground of
utility alone that he hoped to see the plan effected. He
wished no steps to be taken hastily, though he was conti-
,lent that no person could deny the absolute necessity for
better accommodation. Indeed, he should have been the
first to make a motion on the report, with but little anti-
cipation of many dissentient voices, " That the House did
not afford adequate accommodation;" hut, in consequence
of some communications with several influential Members,
and particularly with the Noble Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, he had thought it better to refer this report to
the Committee above stairs, submitting the consideration
of the expediency of the contemplated new building, of
the estimated expenses, &c., entirely to their judgment.
He thought that the House would thus be able to procure
much better information than in any other way. He
should, therefore, move, that the report be referred to a
Select Committee. •

Mr. WARBURTON cordially seconded the motion.
Be considered it indispensably nscessary to obtain proper
accommodation. According to the calculation of Mr.
Smart, the dimension of the House was but 700 feet;
now, as according to the calculation of the same gentle-
man, each Member's sitting dimensions are estimated at
two feet by three and a half—(A laugh)—there is just
sitting-room enough in the House, reckoning in the space
under the gallery, for 350 Members, at the estimated allow-
ance of two feet by 3i- per man.—(A laugh.) Now the
other night, at the great division, there were not less than
560 Members present; so where the surplus 110 found
twhat was he to call it ?)—accomodation—he was at a
great loss to conceive.--(Hear, hear.) It was said—
" Oh ! but a great many Members sit in the side gallery ;"
it might be so; there might be some Members who oc-
casionally resorted to the gallery; but as there in most
cases required six feet room instead of two,—(A laugh)—
he did not see that this argument materially altered the
case. Neither did he approve of the oblong shape of the
House. The Right Hon. Gentleman who filled the chair
had not, like James, eyes in hie head--(Laughter)—he
meant to say, the Right Honourable Speaker had not the
advantage of a more than ordinary number of eyes;
he could not see what might be going on behind him—
(A laugh)—he could not detect the disorderlies who took
advantage of sitting in the rear of the Chair.—(Renewed
laughter; Hear.) Now the Speaker ought to have the
whole of the Members in front of him, seated in such
order that his eye might be upon all or any of them. He
(Mr. Warburton) trusted that there would be a new
House built for them by next session—he considered this
very possible ; and he hoped to see it done.
The question being then put,

Lord -ALTHORP'obeyed the call made by some of the
Hon. Members and addressed the House, though his in-
tention had been not to speak on this question. which he
thought a question for the Members themselves to decide,
being altogether one connected with their accommodation
and convenience—not a Ministerial one.—(Hear.) He
certainly could not deny but that when there was a full
House, the Members suffered great inconvenience. For
himself, he must confess—perhaps it might be the effect
of a sort of prejudice—that he should be strongly averse
to changing the locality of the House, though (as we
understood him) he should not object to having alterl-
tions made in the present House. However, he bad not
the slightest objection to refer the matter entirely to the
Committee.

Sir ROBERT INGLIS thought with the Hon. Mem-
la.e. for Middlesex, that as a matter of pounds, shillings,
and pence, there could be no objection to the alteration
proposed ; the expense would be a mere trifle, supposing
a necessity for that alteration ; but he did not see that any
such necessity existed. He did not, of course, mean to
say that there was sufficient accommodation fur such full
houses as assembled the other night ; but these only oc-
curred two or three times in the course of a session; and,
therefore, the question amounted to this—was it neces-
ssry to build a house large enough to accommodate the
whole body of representatives, who only assembled as a
collective body on very extraordinary occasions—some two
or three times a year.? For the remainder of the year's
business this House was better adapted than any building
he knew. There were most important matters discussed
when only one hundred and fifty or two hundred Members
were present, and this number the house could accommo-
date excellently. The question, therefore, amounted to
this—Were they to build a house capable of containing a
body which met collectively but three times a session, or
were they to remain contented with this building as it
stood, which, as he had stated, was quite large enough
to accommodate the Members who sat there the rest of
the session? Besides this, lie could not but think that
the moral feeling of the Kam would suffer a great shock
in quitting a building which had so often been the scene
of the most splendid eloquence of all the great men who
had raised the name of this country superior to all others.
—(Oh, oh !) He was, therefore, averse to the change.
An Host. MEMBER thought, that as all the representa-
tives of the countay ought duly to assemble whenever there
was the least question concerning the welfare, the happi-
ness, or the misery of the people, there ought to be a
House sufficiently large to contain them. Sir Robert
Inglis had stated the number of extraordinarily important
occasions for the assembly of the whole House at about
three times a session. He (the Hon. Member) thought
there was ,ouch more frequent occasion for their meeting.
He should, therefore, advocate the erection of another
building.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON coincided in opinion with the
last speaker. The present building might be large enough
for the discussion of Turnpike Bills, Read Bills, and so on,
hut it most certainly was far from affording adequate ac-
cotnmodation for the reception of that collective body of
representatives whose duty imperatively called upon them
to be present at the discus,ien on every important ques-
tion. An Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) had seemed to
argue that the representatives of the empire in leaving
these sacred walls would leave behind them the inspira-
tion thrown over them by the glorious recollections of the
great men who had rendered this pile illustrious by the
splendour of their eloquence. This was all very well;
and it he (Mr. C. Fergusson) had been happy enough to
find that the present Members were rendered one jut greater
or more illustrious by the memories of the great men—of
the Pytns and the Ilampdene—whose presence had digni-
fied this House, then would he be the last man to pro-
pose any alteration in locality; but as he had not found
this beneficial result, and as he considered the question as
a pure matter of accommodation and convenience, he
should certainly support the proposed alteration. Some
of the Members the other night had been told they must
not speak on a question of the utmost importance,
because they were not in their places ; a great number of
Hon. Members, according to this rule, would nightly be
prevented from delivering their sentiments, fur in the pre-
sent building there were no seats for them at all.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM made some observations, which
were totally in .udible in the gallery.
Mr. HOWARD solemnly protested against all altera-
tions. He had been in three Parliaments, but had never
experienced any deficiency of room. He had heard uo
convincing reasons of the expediency of a new building.
The argument adduced by an Hun. Member with respect
to dimensions was most fallacious. That Hon. Member
stated, that each gentleman required a space of not less
than two feet; this was most fallacious, for it was
notorious that the soldiers—(Laughter)—a class more
broad-breasted and stout than any, or at least as any of
the Hon. House—(Renewed laughter)--required no
greater a space than eighteen inches.—(loars of laughter.)
It was dreadful to his mind to propose to change the
place where the Representatives of Great Britain were to
meet. The Romans—(Shouts of laughter)—the Romans—
(Renewed laughter)—never changed the place of assembly
for their Senate throughout. The Romans—(Laughter)—
never altered the Forum Romanum.—(The peals of
laughter became now so incessant, that we found it utterly
impossible to do justice to the Hon. Gentleman's eloquent
observations for some time; as far RA, from disconnected
sentences, we could collect, they tended to show that the
good or bad success of legislative measures would altoge-
ther depend upon the place whence they emanated.) Far
was it from his wish to destroy this unassuming House—
(Roars of laughter)—he did not mean the Members who
_(Renewed laughter)—he would never con-
sceoinaiptoosetdiesitt
roy
this sacred fabric. And what was it pro-
posed to erect in its place? A semi-circular, theatrical
sort of building. This would nut be half so good as the
present. He had seen all the assembly-rooms of Naples,
of Italy, and France, and never had he seen one more
advantageously adapted for every purpose than the present.
The laughter prevented our catching the whole of the
Hon. Member's next observation, but it bore refsrence to

some mystery in acoustics, which, as we uffilerstcod him,
" would entirely prevent them from adapting any other
house SO sell fur hearing as this." The Hon. Member
then reverted to the shock that every moral feeling would
suffer at leaving a house rendered so sacred as this by a
series of great men. " You, Sir, would it he indifferent
to you to leave a seat which has had the illustrious dis-
tinction of bearing the great Sir Thomas More : of him
who withstood all the regal intrenchments—(Roars of
laughter)—of his arbitrary Master, and the arbitrary
Cardinal Wolsey? Surely not." The Hon. Member con-
tinued to address the House some time longer, but incessant
calls of " Question," mingled with occasional bursts of
laughter, at some expressions which fell from the Hon.
Member, prevented us from hearing any of hie remarks.
On the Hon. Member resuming his seat,
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to say one word to the House
in sober sadness. He asked the House whether it were
not desirable, that whatever was done in that House, the
public should be made acquainted with it in order to know
the proceedings of their representatives? How could that
be done if there were not sufficient accommodation for
that portion of the public by which alone the whole could
learn ? It was desirable that accommodation should be
given, and not that the communication should be made by
stealth. The thing was now done. The public would
not suffer that it sould be discontinued. If it were a
matter of such decided necessity that it could not he dis-
continued without causing a revolution, should they not
provide convenience for those who gave the debates to the
public? He would give such accommodation, if it were
only that it might not be said, " The Hon. Member was
inaudible." If there were no other reason but that, he
should say they ought to make sufficient accommodation.
He could not carry back his historical recollections of the
House so far as some Hon. Members, but he thought the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford,
did not carry his far enough back. The Hon. Member
forgot that the House was called St. Stephen's Chapel,
and that at a former period mass was said in it.—(Hear,
hear.) How could the Hon. Member bear a spot which
had been consecnited to the worship of the Catholics?
However, they had now come to common sense.—(Hear.
hear.) The question was, was the accommodation suffi-
cient ? He cared nothing about Cromwell and Pym
having sat in that House, he wanted to know whether the
representatives of the people had a convenient place or not
for transacting the public business 2—(Hear, hear.) He
believed not: and there was only one remedy—to send
105 of them back to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
Captain DEANS DUNDAS would never consent to
vote away 130,0001. of the public money while the
people wanted bread. He did not expect that a motion of
such a description would have come from the other
side of the House.
Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL reminded the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman that he had voted away large sums of
the public money.—(Oh, oh !, When ?) The Gallant
Officer had voted against the motion of the Hon. Member
for Middlesex for the reduction of sinecures.

Captain DEANS DUNDAS was happy that he had
an opportunity of explaining the vote he gave on that oc-
casion. He bad been asked by several of his constituents
why he had not voted for Mr. Home's motion? and the
answer lie gave was, that he understood from the Hon.
Member for Tralee, or some other Hon. Member who
spoke on the same side, that it would be proper to in•
crease the pay of the officers of the army and navy. He
belonged to the latter ; and being persuaded that the of-
ficers of the navy, to which he belonged, should be paid
as they now are, he had voted against the motion.
The question was then agreed to, and the following
Committee appointed:—
Hume, Joseph Littleton, E. J.
Althorp, Viscount Milcimay, P.
Ashley, Lord l'cel, Sir It.
Darlington, Earl of Wilbraham,G.
Baring, Mr. Fremantle, Sir T.
Burrell, Sir C. M. !Fox, S. L.
Carter, J. B. !Buckingham, J. S.

Lowther, Viscount
Warburton, H.
Wrottesley, Sir J. B.
Tracy, H,
Molesworth, Sir W.
O'Connell, M.
Clay, W.
Baldwin, Dr.
Wallace, It.
Divett, K

Duncannon, Visc.
Denison, W. J.
listcourt, T. G. B.
Lefevre, C. S.

Hall, B.
Humphery, J.
Davies, T.