The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-23 00:00:00

No. 12,751.)

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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 22.
BURGLARY BILL.
On the order of the day being read for the second read-
ing of this Bill,
Lord SUFFIELD said that since the Bill had been
committed to his charge a very important amendment had
been suggested to him, which he was to introduce into the
Bill. He wished that the Bill should then be read a secorai
time, that be might to-morrow move its commitment, in
order that the amendment he should propose be printed.
The amendment would not at all be at variance with the
principle, but would tend rather to the extension of the
powers given by the Bill. The Bill was entitled " An
Act to repeal so much of the '7th and Bth Geo. IV. as
inflicts the punishment of death upon persons entering and
stealing in dwelling houses." It only related to the
crime of simple housebreaking, and left untouched
those casee where it was accompanied by personal
violence or intimidation. The complaint against the law
as it at present stood, was that it dill not insure the
security of property, and that it was in fact perfectly
obsolete, the state of public feeling rendering it almost im-
possible to do so. It was rernaekable that the Bill, after ample
discussion in the House of Commons, was sent up to their
Lordships without a division. He did not mean to say
that because it had the unanimous vote of the Commons,
their Lordships must of course give it their approbation,
but that it required from them their serious attention and
favourable consideration.
Lord WYNFORD would not object to the second read-
ing, as the Bill would be fully considered in Committee.
After a few words from Lord SUFFIELD, in reply,
The Bill was read a second time.
The Duke of CLEVELAND presented a petition from
the select vestry of South Shields, against the Sea Ap-
prentice Bill.
The Earl of ROSEBERRY presented several petitions
from the trades of Edinburgh and Stirling, against certain
parts of the Burgh (Scotland) Bill.
Earl GREY said across the table, that he would offer
no opposition to the production of the papers which the
Noble Marquis (Londonderry) had given notice of his in-
tention to move.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he was relieved
from considerable embarrassment by what had fallen from
the Noble Lord. He confessed it was not what he ex-
pected a few days ago, when the Noble Earl appeared
wholly ignorant on the subject. He had before asked the
question, and out of courtesy he did not press it then, as the
Nob e Earl stated that he was not prepared ; yet on the very
same evening a letter was sent to Lloyd's from the Secretary
for Foreign Affairs—but still he did not press it, because
it would then also have been inconvenient, hut now when
he came down prepared to state the grounds upon which
he brought forward the subject, he was told that there
was to be no opposition to his motion, which, of course,
would prevent him from stating much that be had
intended. Of course, till he saw the promised papers,
he could not say whether he should do any thing
farther in the matter or not, but so far as he was
informed, the whole thing was a fabrication got up in this
country—he did not believe that up to this moment there
was any official communication of the blockade from
the Regency, as it was called, at Oporto.—( Hear, hear.)
The question which he wished to put to the Noble Earl—
and it was one which he knew be could not answer—
(A laugh)—was, whether there had bee❑ any official in-
formation relative to the blockade from the British
Consul at Oporto, or any other competent authority?
He bad himself sent a letter to Lloyd's, to inquire whether
the notice which had been posted up there was derived
from any public source. The answer he bad got
from a most respectable merchant was, that Lloyd's
had received no notice from their agent at Oporto
of the blockade, and be saw that the Oporto Chronicle
made no mention of anything of the kind. The Noble
Earl, however, had now promised, sine die, to grant
the papers he asked for, but as he (Lord L.) bad made him-
self master of the subject as far as his poor abilities would
allow him, he begged to say that he should reserve him-
self for a future occasion to show the absolute absurdity of
the notification of a blockade to be instituted by Don Pedro.
And who was Don Pedro? A usurper, in possession
of one of the twelve ports of Portugal only, who pre-
tended to blockade a coast 400 or 500 miles in
length.—(Hear, hear.) This question of Portugal,
and our concern in it, continued of importance when
they recollected that, altheugh his Majesty, in answer to
their Lordships' address, had stated, in his most gracious
reply, that he had preserved the neutrality they wished,
an address had been presented to the other House
of Parliament, which seemed to go rather the
other way, and give a sort of negative
to their Lordships' wishes. When the Noble Earl talked
of avoiding a collision with the House of Commons he
had so much panegyrised, he should recollect its conduct
in this matter, as also that which was almost threat-
ened, if their Lordships should throw out the Bill they were
that night to discuss in Committee.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Earl had talked of that House of Com-
mons, that Radical Assembly, having actually passed the
Coercive Bill, but the Noble Earl had not mentioned
how subservient that House of Commons bad shown itself
to the Gosernment on the melt tax, and other questions.
But let the Noble Earl disguise his sentiments with all his
eloquence, his speech would only be what he had designated
the speech of the Noble Earl behind him (Winchilsea)
" sound and fury," or es a Noble Secretary had
said of a worthy Noble Lord, it was perfectly puerile.
The Noble Marquis concluded by moving for copies of all
the correspondence previous or up to the 15th inst., which
came from competent authority, either in Oporto or else-
where, which induced his Majesty's Secretary of State for
the Foreign Department formally to acknowledge the
blockade.
Earl GREY said that he had no intention, as he had
before stated, to make any opposition to the mo-
tion of the Noble Marquis. That being the case,
he should certainly not think it necessary to enter
into any of the various topics which the Noble Mar-
quis had thought proper to introduce, especially
as he had stated his intention of reserving to himself an-
other opportunity of stating his opinio❑ more fully on
the subject. After the papers which he intended to
place before their Lordships were upon the table, it would be
for their Lordships to judge whether it was right or ne-
c esary for the Noble Marquis to make any further ob-
servations on the subject. lf, however, either the House
or the Noble Marquis should think it right that
any further observations should be introduced, he
should be prepared to answer any observations that the
Noble Marquis might think proper to make as to the
conduct of his Majesty's Ministers.
The motion was then agreed to.
The Earl of ROSSLYN gave notice that, on Thurs-
day next, he would move the second reading of the Scotch
Burgh Police Bill.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord KENYON wished to know, if the Committee on
the Bill should get through it in a few days, when the
Noble Earl would move the tbird reading?
Earl GREY said that he should certainly move the
third reading as soon as possible afterwards. If the Com-
mittee was got through on Wednesday he should propose
that the third reading should be moved on Friday; if later,
he should propose it on Monday.
THELLUSON'S WILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the third reading
of the Bill.
The Earl of HARROWBY called upon their Lord-
ships to consider well before they gave their sanction to
such a measure as that before the House. It had been
urged that the case was a very Lard one with respect
to the representatives of the testator. That might be
the case, but would that be a justification of the Bill?
(Hear.) It was also said that this Bill would never
become a precedent. He doubted that proposition. The
Noble Lord on the Woolsack had treated the matter
for suspending the standing orders of the House, by which
the present Bill was introduced, as a matter of course ; in
the fear that it might become a matter of course, and

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,—tten the legal question
o this property was be•
lad so long presided, there
iot feel a wish to set aside

the will—(Hear)—but the law was imperative. If their
Lordships should pass this Bill, what security was there
that other Bills would not be introduced, for this was by
no means so singular a case--(Hear)—as was imagined.
The Noble and Learned Lord could not concur in the
Bill.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE entertained many objections
to it. Notwithstanding what had been stated by the
Noble and Learned Lord os the Woclsagg, he feared that
if this Bill were passed, it must form a precedent for an

interference with all future wills.
"The Earl of WICKLOW opposed the measurei on the
ground that it was not only unjust iu itself, but '7/ould

lead to an interference witia other wills.
The Marquis of SALISBURY supported the Bill.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said a few words,
_ _ _ . _

which were inaudible in the gallery.
The LORD CHANCELLOR defended the Bill, and

observed that it was not through compassion to the inter-
mediate heirs that this Bill was introduced—that would
not be a sufficient ground to justify their interference ;
but it appeared that the real object was to save unneces-
sary expense to the estate, and at the same time to keep in
view the object of the testator, which was accumulation,
and which would not be affected by this Bill. He (the
Lord Chancellor) could have no personal feeling or interest
in this question, for it so happened that he had never
known or seen a single branch of the Thelluson fatuity is
all his life. His only motive, then, in supporting the mo•
tion of the Noble Baron (Lyndhurst) arose from what had
come before him in the discharge of his duty in the Court
of Chancery. It was a fallacious argument to suppose /I) at
this would form a precedent for an interference with all
other wills. This case stood upon its own merits, and
could not be quoted as a precedent until a case occurred
precisely similar in all its bearinrs, and then it would be
th.!ir duty to deal with it according► to its merits. He
would not further trespass on their Lordships, but would
conclude by stating that the object of the Bill was to save
expense, and at the same time afford relief to tl;i: parties
interested.—(Question, question.)
The House then divided—

For the motion
Against it
Majority in favour of it -67

IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES BILL.
On re-entering the gallery, we found that their Lord-
ships had gone into Committee on the Irish Church Tem-
poralities Bill.
The first clause was put and agreed to.
On the second resolution being put, for the appointment
of Commissioners to act under the provisions of the Bill,
The Duke of WELLINGTON was opposed to this
clause, because he thought the duty which was to devolve
on them might be very well discharged by the Board of
First Fruits, and ought to be left in their hands. It was
urged that the whole business was to be left in the hands
of the Commissioners; but it was clear nothing could be
done without the aid of Government. He thought it
advisable that of the three Commissioners one should be
named by the Primate of all Ireland and the Archbishop
of Dublin. The Noble Duke moved an amendment to
this effect.
Earl GREY thought such an amendment unnecessary,
yet he would not oppose it.
The Bishop of LONDON thought that two Commis-
sinners would be sufficient. He merely said this with a
view of saving expense.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought it most advisable

to have three Commissioners in the outset, as they would
be better enabled to attend to the working of the Bill. If,
in the course of time, two should be found sufficient, then
any vacancy which occurred need not be filled up He
therefore hoped that the clause granting three Commis.
sionere would be acceded to.

The Bishop of LONDON said his only object was to
diminish the expense.
After a few words from the Earl of WESTMEATH.,
the clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH wished to know what means

the country had of ascertaining that the Commissioners
were members of the Church of England and Ireland?--
(A laugh.)
Earl GREY said they would have the same means of
ascertaining that fact as they had on formerloccasions.
The Earl of WESTMEATH said that as a test th•
Commissioners should be made to take the Holy Commu-
nion in both kinds*.

The Earl of WICKLOW proposed that the Bishops,
instead of being cx officio Commissioners, should be
appointed either by election of their fellows or by rotation.
Lord WYNFORD said that the proposition of his Noble
Friend would tend to remove some of his main objections,
to the measure. Ile thought that the appointment of
Bishops to be Commissioners should be by the Bench of
Bishops. This would snake the Bill less objectionable to
those who now opposed it.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said that whether
Ecclesiastical Commissioners were appointed by the Crown
or by the Bishops, was not a matter of importance.
Earl GREY would accede to any suggestions which
tended to make the Bill more satisfactory. He hoped the
suggestion of the Noble Earl would not be pressed. He
had no objection to make all the three Commissioners
removeable by the Crown. The four Bishops should not
be removeable ; the only persons removeable should be the
three Commissioners.

The Duke of WELLINGTON wished to give to the

Primate and to the Archbishop of Dublin, instead of to
the persons removed, the appointment of those who were
to be named.

The Earl of HARROWBY thought that the Crown

might have the nomination of two of Bishops, leaving
to the Archbishop of Dublin, or to the whole Bench, the
selection of those two.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said the country
would much prefer that all the Bishops now elected to the
Church of Ireland should be Members of the Board. The
consequence would be very much the same as the appoint-
ment of four, because the persons who then attended
would be those amongst the Bishops who felt themselves
best qualified ; but it was not judged expedient to appoint
the whole 12—te make them all members. He thought

they ought to be i❑ some measure represented ; and when
it was considered that all property taken from the church
was to be applied to church purposes, of which these
Commissioners had the management, he could not think
that it would be too much if the four Bishops were se-
lected by the Bishops. At the same time, after the dis-
position which the Noble Earl bad shown this evening, he
should be sorry to press anything disagreeable to him, but
he conceived the proposition of the Noble Earl who spoke
last was much the beet.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that no arrangement
could be worse than that by which two Bishops should be
chosen by the Crown, indicating unlimited confidence iu
the Crown, and two by the Bishops, indicating a distrust
of the Crown. The consequence would be perpetual jea-
lousy between the two different appointed sets of Prelates.
It was liable also to this objection, that the Person or per-
sons rejected by one of these authorities, might perchance
be chosen by the other. He could not conceive any thing
more likely to produce that which ought to be avoided.
'The Duke of CUMBERLAND understood the Arch-
bishop to say that all the Bishops should be nominated by
the Crown. The country would be better satisfied if the
four Bishops were elected by the body of the Bench, than
if they were elected by the Crown.
The Bishop of LONDON said that as the Crown had
the appointment of the Bishops, the Crown had ultimately
the appointment of all the Commissioners.
Lord WYNFORD was anxious that in a matter pecu-
liarly belonging to the Church, the Church should have
•he majority.
Earl GREY had very strong objections to this course,
which he would state at the proper time. There were
already two Archbishops, and four Bishops, which
he thought quite enough to insure a sufficient pre-
ponderance in the Church. It was too late for any of
these amendments, as they came after an amendment
already proposed.
Lord PLUNKET had been a Member of the Board
of First Fruits. There were never more than four pre-
sent, and he thought four quite sufficient for the transac-
tion of the business.
Lord WYNFORD said that three out of four of the
Bishops might be absent, and could not attend.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH would say, the greatest
part of his objections would be removed, if the House
would accede that four Bishops should be appointed by
the whole of the Bishops.
The Bishop of LONDON said that it would be pref. e-
ebet 'could no.
rable if the whole Bench were Members of the Commission.
yleiasr.clause
The Board of First Fruits sat only twice in the
by the Crfousrvna,n
reasonable
see what possible ground there was 0 y.
AsEtairiel GREYBisips
were elected
neloeteteedonsent to negariv
all
. reasonable. persons?
Board, enough security to satisfy.
persevered in his objections to the
If the Noble Baron
* We understoo.l this to refer to the taking the bread and
done by Protestants ; whereat
wine, as the Roman Catholic
distrust. Was there not, in the constitution of the
laity take the brad (or wafer) only,