The Sun.
London, England, 1851-04-01 00:00:00

EVENING,

vernment had received reports—which reports had been
supervised by the governors of the colonies, and the vote
had been framed on the lowest possible scale. For
wages, the vote this year was 228,0001., which was 6,000/.
less than last. This vote bad been under consideration,
and every reduction practicable had been insisted upon.
Woolwich establishment had been closely looked into,
and all expenses hereafter would be rigidly scrutinised.
The next vote was for stores. This vote had always
called for severe remarks from the advocates of economy.
The vote was 194,1901, being 16,7221. less than the pre-
vious year. For small arms the vote was 14,000/Jess
than last year. Government had held their hand with
respect to the manufacture of small arms, in consequence
of the change of arms and improvements made on the
Continent. He had all these alleged improvements
under inspection and trial. He believed the improve-
ments, though very pretty to look at, would not, on
trial, be found of such importance as to require
serious changes to be made. At all events the sub-
ject would have careful attention. He would not go
into particulars to prove that this amount was indispen-
sable. That would be seen if the items were carefully
and impartially looked into. The next vote was for
buildings, &c.; the amount was 470,3471., being 32,283/.
more than last year. The increase arose from the ne-
cessity for new works. An addition to the barracks at
Wellington was required, and this had helped to swell
the vote. Also at Woolwich the sum of 5,0001. was
required for an ordnance institution. This was con-
formable to the recommendation of the Committee, and
be was sure groat benefit would flow from the applica-
tion of this money. There was also a new fort to be
built, and 10,001. had been required; and this money
ho considered had been well laid out. Then, the sum
of 10,000/. for hospitals (we understood) could not be
objected to. There was also a sum of 21,000/. for
the purchase of Carlisle Fort. This arose out of one
of those improvident bargains made by a former
Government. A rent of 1,0001. was paid to a gentle-
man for this fort. It was right, therefore, to buy up
the lease, as being the most economical mode of getting
rid of a bad bargain, which, heconsidered, ought to have
long ago been off the hands of the Government. It
would be found that the increase of 30,0001. was more
than balanced by reductions in other quarters. The
next vote was for surveys of England, Ireland, and
Scotland. He was aware that objections had been raised
to this vote—he was prepared to meet those objections,
but not at that moment. The sum required was 65,0001.
a year, but a much larger grant would be required,
otherwise this service would be much cramped. If a
Committee were granted, it would be found that a much
larger sum was wanted than was usually demanded.—
(Laughter.) He was much interested in this matter,
and if Hon. Members could but see the new maps on
the reduced scale, they would find that nothing like
them was in the possession of other nations. The total
amount of the vote was 97,654/.; this would include all
the sums required for scientific grants. He had nom
gone through the items at length, and he again repeated,
if any vote were taken separately by his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Hume), and he pointed out where any large reduc-
tion could be made, he would be happy to meet him on
that point. The Hon. Gentleman would no doubt refer to
the colonies; but it was for Government to decide on
the expediency of keeping up establishments necessary
for the service of the country. The Hon. Member
would perhaps object to the stores, but he could assure
the Hon. Member every reduction was being made that
was practicable. He could tell his Hon. Friend that
every description of stores, particularly colonial stores,
had been closely looked into. Some of the colonies,
instead of advocating a reduction in the amount of
stores, pointed out the necessity for an increase. Ha
might have gone into further details, but he would wait
until Hon. Members made their objections, and then he
would reply to them in detail. The first vote was for
14,5731., one including commissioned and non-com-
missioned officers composing the civil, ordnance, and
military corps.
Mr. HUME looked at the total of the votes, and found
that only a saving of about 22,0001. was contemplated
out of an expenditure of 2,900,0001., and this he consi-
dered was much less than it ought to be. He had over-
hauled all the items, and he found there was great room
for retrenchment. He complained] that they khad
been going on accumulating stores until they had be-
come altogether useless. The expense of taking care
of them and the storage had the effect of trebling their
cost, and at the end they were entirely useless.
He wished the Committee to mark the rapid and enor-
mous increase in the expense of that department. In
1834, 5, and 6, the average was little more than
1,000,000/. sterling. In 1846 the amount was 2,300,0001;
in 1847, 2,900,0001. ; in 1848, 3,000,0001.; in
.1949,
when some little economy was forced upon them, it fell
to 2,300,0004; in 1850 it was 2,400,0001; and in the
present year it amounted to the same sum of 2,400,0001.
In every one of the departments, at home and abroad,
connected with the ordnance, considerable increase had
taken place. The artillery and engineers were actually
higher now than they were during the war. Ho thought
it extremely objectionable that these branches of the
service never had their fair share of employment, al-
though kept up at so enormous an expense. At the
same time he was extremely gratified to find the great
diminution that had taken place in the number of punish-
ments. It showed that in proportion as they attended
to the moral instruction of the soldiers in the same pro-
portion would the men be steady and well conducted.
He was an advocate for the removal of the office from
Pall-mall; It was a great additional expense to the coun-
try, and was of no use whatever. He thought, under the
present improved system, when they could obtain any
supply of stores upon the shortest notice, that it was
very unadvisable to be accumulating such an immense
quantity of materials, many of which were perishable.
Abroad more particularly the stores rapidly deteriorated.
He had shown the enormity of this vote, and the man-
ner in which it had been doubled within the last few
years, and ho believed it was all owing to the apathy
and indifference of the House of Commons.
Mr. WILLIAMS said if he took the period of 1829
to 1839, including the Administrations of the DukOof
Wellington, Earl Grey, and Lord Melbourne, it would
be found that the number of men was only 8,550 at an
expense of 1,546,0001.; while the Hon. and Gallant
Member now asked for 14,571 men, at a cost of
2,411,0001., exclusive of doekyard battalions and coast-
guard.
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were also agreed to:-
712,582/. to defray the expenses of the pay, allow-
ances, &c., of the ordnance corps.
268,2571. commissariat and barrack supplies.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether any alterations
had been made in the commissariat departments, in con-
sequence of the evidence taken before the Committee of
last year?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that inquiries were on foot in the different commissariat
offices to ascertain how far reductions might be made in
them.
Mr. WILLIAMS suggested that considerable saving
might be effected in the reduction of barrack-masters, or
in a consolidation of their offices.
Colonel ANSON remarked that the number of bar-
rack-masters had been considerably reduced. In 1835
there were 104, while for this year there were but 91.
The vote was then agreed to.
75,9501. for the expenses of the Ordnance-office.—
Agreed to.
295,7501. to defray the expenses of establishments at
home and abroad.—A greed to.
122,8004 for wages at home and abroad.—Agreed to.
194,9091. for Ordnance stores for land and sea.—Agreed
o.

470,347/. for expense of works, buildings, and repairs.
Agreed to.
97,6541. for scientific grants.—Agreed to.
Mr. REYNOLDS moved that the Chairman now re-
port progress. He wished to know whether Government
intended going on to-night with two Bills on the paper—
the Medical Charities (Ireland) Bill and the Valuation
(Ireland) Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he did not intend to proceed
to-night with the Medical Charities Bill.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE proposed to commit the Va-
luation Bill pro forma, but would not fix the Committee
till after Easter.
Mr. REYNOLDS then withdrew his motion for re-
porting progress.
173,2481. for the non-effective service.—Agreed to.
50,0001. on account of civil contingencies.
Mr. HUME said, that before consenting to this vote
he should like to have some account of the expenditure
of last year's vote.
Colonel SIBTHORP looked on the vote with suspi-
cion. A vote for civil contingencies might include a
great many objectionable items. It might, for instance,
have some reference to that mean, miserable Crystal
Palace.—(A laugh.) It was dangerous to pass a vote
on account of this kind, as it was not easy to get money
back when once voted. Holdfast was a good dog.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME assured the Gallant Colonel that not one
farthing of this vote was for the Crystal Palace.
The vote was then agreed to.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit again.
BORNEO.

Lord PALMERSTON asked Mr. Hume to postpone
his motion on the following day, for inquiry into certain
proceedings on the west coast of Borneo, until after the
arrival of Sir J. Brooke, who was coming over to this
country. The Hon. Member must be aware that the
motion involved a personal charge against that indivi-
dual, and it would, therefore, be only giving him a fair
opportunity of answering any such to wait until his ar-
rival here.
Mr. HUME said it was a question of principle, not of
personality, with him. Although he had not taken a
great deal of trouble to get his notice a good place on
the list, ho had no objection to postpone it at the Noble
Lord's desire.—(Hear.) However, he would take the
earliest opportunity after Sir J. Brooke's arrival of in-
troducing the matter again.—(Hear.)
The Mutiny Bill and Marine Mutiny Bill were then
severally read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted this day.
The Committee on Ways and Means was postponed.
The Prisons (Scotland) Bill was read a second time,
and the Committee appointed for Monday, the 2d of May.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE, in moving the second reading
of the Steam Navigation Bill, said it was right it should
be before the House and the country for some time before
it was considered in Committee, which he did not pro-
pose to take until after Easter.
Mr. HUME asked, ought it not to be a Committee up-
stairs?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, if it should be the general
wish he had no objection.
The Bill was then read a second time, and the Com-
mittee fixed for the 2d of May.
The second reading of the Medical Charities (Ireland)
Bill was postponed to this day.
The Committee on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill was
fixed for the 2d of May.
The Valuation (Ireland) Bill was committed pro formic.
The Apprentioes and Servants' Bill was read a third
time tend

The second reading-of the Metropolis Buildings Bill
was deferred until Friday next.
The second reading of the General Board of Health
Bill was postponed.
The second reading of the Acts of Parliament Abbre-
viation Act Repeal Bill was also postponed.
RETURNS OF PROPERTY AND INCOME TAX.
Mr. BOOKER then rose, pursuant to notice, to move
for the following papers:-
1. Return, in tabular form, of the amount of income
assessed to the property and income tax under Schedule
D, for the years 1815, 1843, 1846, and 1849 or 1850,
distinguishing each year separately, for the districts
comprising the whole of the metropolis, viz , the city of
London. the Inns of Court, the Liberty of the Rolls, the
whole of Westminster, also the Tower Hamlets division,
the Edmonton division, the Finsbury division or district,
the Holborn division or district, Bloomsbury, the Ken-
sington division or district, the Gore division or district,
the Brentford division, and the Spelthorne division, all in
the county of Middlesex; also, the Blackheath Hundred,
East Brixton and West Brixton, East Brixton the third
division, the borough of Southwark, Camberwell, Peck-
ham, St. Paul, Deptford, Streatham, Newington, and
Kingston llundred, situate in the county of Surrey; also,
Blackheath and Little and Lessness district, in the
county of K.
Also, this return in abstract, in tabular form, under
one general bead.
2. A like return to No. 1, for the districts comprising
the whole of the towns of Manchester and Salford,
Liverpool, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Dudley, Hull,
Huddersfield, Bradford, Wakefield, Macclesfield, Hali-
fax, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, Merthyr
, Tidfyl, and Swansea, separately, and for the like periods.
3. Return, in tabular form, of the net revenue re-
ceived from the property and income tax under Schedule
A, in the years 1849 and 1850, distinguishing each year,
and, separately, each head of property from which the
revenue is obtained, and also distinguishing England and
Wales from Scotland.
4. A like return of the net revenue received under
Schedule B for the same period, and distinguishing Eng-
land and Wales from Scotland.
5. Return, in tabular form, of the amount of real pro-
perty, assessed to the income and property tax under
Schedule A, in the years 1315, 1843, 1846, and 1848, dis-
tinguishing each year, in the districts comprising the
whole of the metropolis in districts or divisions, as in
No. 1; distinguishing the description of property under
each head on which the assessment is made.
And, also, this return in abstract and tabular form
under one general head.
In making that motion he was not influenced by motives
of vague curiosity; he was only anxious to obtain infor-
mation of a valuable and important character. No matter
what Government was in office, it was material to the
people of this country to know what he sought for. Mr.
Villiers, whose annual motions in that House were an
excellent example to the Protectionists—(Hear, hear)—
in 1845, had obtained a return upon motion containing
375 folio pages, and furnishing every item of the amount
assessed in every parish of the United Kingdom under a
certain schedule. He did not see what objection there
should be to the production of the returns he sought for

—as what he wished was to see how that income-tas
bore upon the industry sad property of the country. It
was intimated that certain returns were only up to 1848,
and could not be brought to 1851, because they were only
made triennially in the country. Now, what he parti-
cularly wanted to know was, what depreciation had
taken place during the years 1849 and 1850, in that par-
ticular description of property about which the Govern-
ment seemed desirous of withholding all information.
He believed that during the last two years it would be
found short, that sort of property. By a former return
made he found that the assessment of the entire country
amounted to 34,000,0001., while in London it reached
16,000,0001. The Hon. Member, after observing upon
several statistics connected with his motion, concluded
by submitting it to the House.
Mr. SPOONER seconded the motion.

Colonel SIBTHORP was understood to express his
satisfaction that the Hon. Member bad moved for these
returns.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER inti-
mated his intention to oppose the greater part of the
Hon. Member's motion, particularly that for returns
under Schedule B. The returns in the latter part of the
Hon. Member's motion he had no objection to. He
should give the returns in Schedule D in the district
towns to which he bad alluded. So jealous was Parlia-
ment in former times of exposing those returns that, in
1815, all the papers connected with the income-tax were
ordered to be burned.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to
the smaller districts and parishes for which he sought
returns, the Hon. Member might obtain the same infor-
mation,which he had in the returns in his hand from
the poor-rate valuation. As to Schedule B, there
was only one objection to it—it was impossible to
make it out in the manner that it was asked for.
There was, however, one mode by which it might be
obtained by the Hon. Gentleman, and that was by giving
him his support for the renewal of the income-tax.—
(Laughter.) In case of its being renewed there would
be a re-assessment of Schedule Bin 1851. Unless, then,
the Hon. Gentleman supported the income-tax, he could
not have the information ho desired. All the returns
that could be given he was perfectly willing to place in
his hands.
Mr. HENLEY hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would
not press for the returns in Schedule B, because they
would give false information; for those returns would
not show that which had actually occurred—a deprecia-
tion in the value of landed property.
Mr. SPOONER trusted the returns would not be
pressed for. He wished to know if, in certain cases,
where a reduction in rent was allowed, the income-tax
had not been remitted?

Mr. BOOKER said, after the objections made by two
Hon. Members, he should not press for the returns. He
should, therefore, not press his motion to a division.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated,

in reply to the Hon. Member (Mr. Spooner), that ap-
peals bad been made to the Commissioners against as-
sessments where the rents had been reduced by land-
lords. He did not know that the reductions had been
actually made, but upon an application being made to
him, he said " yes, they ought to be made."
The motion was then withdrawn.
STEAM NAVIGATION TO INDIA.

Upon the nomination of tho Committee to consider

this subject,
Mr. HENLEY objected to the nomination of Mem-
bers who were interested in the subject. To raise the
question, he objected to the name of Mr. Willcox.
Viscount JOCELYN said, that in nominating the
_ _

Committee ho considered it of importance to have Mem-
bers upon it who were able to give information on the
subject. They would obtain such information, and get
more rapidly through their business, by naming Mem-
bers who were interested in the question.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he considered it better to have persons interested in
the subject on the Committee—that that should be done
which hau been done by the Noble Lord, putting on the
Committee all the parties who were interested.
The Committee was appointed.
Viscount JOCELYN gave notice of his intention to
move that Mr. Henley be added to the Committee.
Mr. lIATC[IELL obtained leave to bring in a Bill for
amending and regulating process and practice in the civil
bill courts in Ireland.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter past One
o'clock.